Game of Thrones is nothing without its incredible supporting cast. The numbers have gone up and down over the years with thoughtful additions and bloody subtractions, but the supporting stars always offered their best performances, showing that actors don’t need top billing to win our hearts. This week we’ll be choosing our favorite supporting performances of the final season of Game of Thrones- make sure you vote in both categories!
The nominees for Best Supporting Actor are…
Alfie Allen as Theon Greyjoy
John Bradley as Samwell Tarly
Liam Cunningham as Davos Seaworth
Iain Glen as Jorah Mormont
Rory McCann as Sandor Clegane
The nominees for Best Supporting Actress are:
Gwendoline Christie as Brienne of Tarth
Nathalie Emmanuel as Missandei
Hannah Murray as Gilly
Bella Ramsey as Lyanna Mormont
The complete results from round 1 voting for Best Supporting Actor can be viewed here.
Final round rules: To choose winners, cast your vote in each category in the polls below. In the finals, unlike the preliminaries, fans have one vote to cast in each category. At the end of one week (Friday 11/15/19 at 12PM ET), the performer in each category with the most votes will be the winner! The results of the polls will be revealed during the live Watchers on the Wall Awards ceremony, specific date to be announced in the near future!
Rory McCann and Gwendoline Christie
They were all brilliant, but I’d have to go with Liam and Hannah Murray. Like Liam always said, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss gave all of them the most beautiful words they ever got to speak as actors and they were lucky to have the opportunity.
Hands down Alfie Allen with Liam second.
But I had to think for a bit for Suporting actress. Gwendoline Christie takes it. It was an eventful season for Brienne. Not that it wasn’t for Missandei and Lyanna, but Gwendoline really got into quite some meaty acting on many occasions.
Liam Cunningham & Gwendoline Christie
Alfie and Gwen. Beautiful acting by both this season.
Man that was a tough vote. I finished the books today!! See the end of this post for those interested. I had a hard time choosing which actor. John Bradley was so great as Sam this year. His reactions were amazing with Jon in the crypts. He was also amazing not saying anything during the battle. But I had to give it to Alfie. Season 8 was his season. His look at Sansa, his face down with the NK. He had so many great moments and an awesome completion of his character’s arc to being a “good man”.
I went with Gwendoline for actresses. That was easier for me.
## BOOK STUFF##
WOW WOW WOW WOW. (and that doesn’t stand for Winds of Winter)
Those last 100 pages flew by and the book really came together for me. I will read the sample chapters tomorrow using Keith’s recommended order. I also timed my reading speed for one page and I’m 1 minute and 30 seconds at my normal speed, but I did find myself re-reading several parts of pages and on those I was closer to 2 minutes I’m sure.
As a show first person, I feel for book first people, because I would have been frickin upset that the show didn’t include the way these stories came together at the end. I honestly don’t know how D&D would have handled it if WoW would have come out, because they strayed so far from the core stories (imho).
non book readers definitely don’t read this spoiler if you ever plan on reading the books…
OK…that’s just for starters…
So Jenny about Dany’s last chapter
GRRM really did a great job making things come together though (at least for me…can you tell I’m excited! I really am)
Dragontamer hilarious scene…
Jon Snow….wow wow wow..
Jon was much more strategic in the books. I liked his plan to attack Ramsay and it wasn’t so cut and dry honorable. He was working around the honor system as you will. I know it was bad news when Jon locked up Ghost. NO!!! DON’T LOCK UP YOUR DIREWOLF!! But just so very different than the way the show did it. I am trying to research the people present and if any of them where people Cersei sent. I’m not sure.
But since Mel is there, she has to be the one to bring him back (similar to the show, but she will tell him I told You So in the books)
There is really alot more but I’ll stop there for now. It took me about 5 months to complete my journey and I’m extremely thrilled that I did. But now, I’m a bit pissed that the show didn’t follow where GRRM was going!! ugg.. what happened to me????
(one more thing)
GRRM doesn’t always have alot of action, but when he does, it’s totally awesome and worth the wait. The fight scenes were so masterfully written, I’ll just stop there for now.
Tron79,
sorry Kevin1989 I keep saying Keith, but I meant Kevin!!!. You’ve been really helpful. Thanks for recommending the Boiled Leather order. I loved getting to read the last two as one book.
Same!
Tron79,
I had a bunch of replies to you (about your books journey, etc.) beginning at around 12:15 pm today under the “Best Death” post.
“Interesting” category placements for the actresses. :/
Great I will take a look. Today was my day off but I ended up being asked to help out at a funeral and I ended up having to do lots of other errands but somehow I still got in the last 100 pages! This was the first chance to look at WotW today.
This :o)
Tron79,
Congratulations, Tron79!! 😀 And you finished well before Thanksgiving!
Here are my thoughts I’ve been wanting to share with you!
But from the side of Bowen Marsh & co, when Jon reads the Pink Letter aloud, it seems to confirm all their worst fears. While they certainly oppose the Hardhome rescue mission and allying with the wildlings, this brings it all together for them and they decide they have to shank Jon.
For all that it seems Jon made the right decisions and as far as compassion and personal morality go, I think he did (trying to save his sister from a monster, trying to help Alys escape her evil family and giving her an army to help regain her home which also helped integrate the wildlings into Westeros, helping Stannis against monsters like Roose and Ramsay, while also trying to defend the Wall and save humanity), it shows how important neutrality is and why the Watch requires it. Because it put all of Jon’s efforts to prepare for the war against the Others at risk, his primary duty and the other thing he was working so hard to do. Also, while Bowen Marsh & co. are certainly bigots, some of Marsh’s concerns were practical (fearing the wrath of the Iron Throne if they felt Jon was supporting Stannis too much, wondering how they were going to feed everyone, etc.)
I think ADWD showed the struggles of young rulers who experience a steep learning curve and it kind of demonstrates what happens when they go too far to one side. Jon compromised too little (with his dissenters, especially vis a vis the wildlings) due to his moral ideals and while he was successful in building a peace with the wildlings (some of whom seem to like Jon far more than some of his own men) and even with Stannis, he didn’t do enough to build the peace with his own men, who end up acting against him. For example, Jon uses all the wrong arguments with his men re:the wildlings — pressing that the wildlings are people, not enemies, but these are the exact wrong arguments to use. Unlike Jon, Bowen Marsh & co. don’t have any compassion for the wildlings because they don’t view them as people. I think the argument Jon needed to use more is dead wildlings = wight we have to fight but I believe he uses that argument only once. Meanwhile, Dany compromised her ideals too much for the sake of peace and though she does actually manage a fragile peace and all sides genuinely wanted it, it was too much and she takes on a dismal view of her own efforts for peace in the end, deciding she is a dragon and dragons “don’t plant trees”.
I think the efforts Dany made in Meereen were part of who she really was — the side that wanted peace, who wanted to be good and to do good, the side that feared succumbing to the “taint”. For example, when she walks among the sick and tries to help them (feeling she’s “immune”), I think this is part of who Dany is as well as her “fire and blood” side. Despite her dark impulses, I think Dany has a genuinely compassionate side as well — but it’s that “fire and blood” side she fights against in Meereen before she decides she’s had enough in the end.
For this poll, I voted for Alfie Allen and Gwendoline Christie 🙂 Nearly voted for Liam Cunningham because I’ve loved him ever since A Little Princess, even before knowing he was Liam Cunningham aka Dadvos (it took me the longest time to realize he was the dad in A Little Princess, my favourite childhood movie ever next to The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and The Lion King — ah, the Golden Age of Disney ;D) so that was a tough, tough, tough choice ;0; However, Theon’s arc is not an easy one and Alfie Allen did it spectacularly.
Best Supporting Actor is always a miserable choice for me. Rory, Iain, and Alfie don’t help by being so damn good.
Supporting actress was a pretty easy Gwen pick for me.
I want to ask you before I reply….
I know that Osmund Kettleblack never makes it there, but she talked about sending 100? other people to the wall if my memory serves me. I was trying to find which chapter Cersei talks about her plan to take out Jon.
Your comments about Jon…
You can’t go marching south as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.
He had a neutrality problem with Stannis as well, but he seemed aware of it and wanted to make sure it didn’t appear that he was too much on Stannis’ side.
I agree about Jon sounding too merciful. I think Mercy is the best way to describe it. He did keep talking about the women and children. His stronger argument is to say if they let the wildlings die, they will all be members of the Other’s army. The problem is that most of the NW has never seen an Other. I actually think they showed less of the White Walkers in the books than they did in the show, so that would have been a tough argument. Until the NW would have seen a major attack by White Walkers, it would be hard to convince them that they need to worry about them on the other side of the wall. The book attacks on the NW were mostly wildling attacks and they never had a Hardhome moment like the show that put the fear of death into everyone. I think I was surprised by how few White Walker scenes there were in the books thinking back on it…
about Dany
about both…
actress was easy – Gwendolyn
Actor? Oh my god can we have a 5 way tie? Really think Alfie and Rory are the top. Looking at the number of people voting for each, Alfie has twice as many as anyone; And Ive been complaining for years how he has been neglected in the awards . But Rory…..I’ll look and see what everyone else is saying, maybe that will make my mind up
I don’t see the results from round 1 voting for Best Supporting Actress, only for Actor. Is it hiding somewhere ? 🙂
Tron79,
As a show first person, I feel for book first people, because I would have been frickin upset that the show didn’t include the way these stories came together at the end. I honestly don’t know how D&D would have handled it if WoW would have come out, because they strayed so far from the core stories (imho).
Been saying this a long time; Much of Martins stories, as good as they were, needed to be edited and I think D&D managed to do it right most of the time. But once the books dried up……Moving character arcs destroyed lots of continuity from the book, and so left the ending rather unraveled. Its not all their fault; Martin really dropped the ball here. But when you read those scenes you realize that some book first folks (well most of them) had the right idea. (thank you Tron for letting us in on your reading journey! Its made me want to reread them again using that method. Congrats to you as well for perservering!!!!
oh and btw, your last spoiler paragraph about jon and dany were spot on. lack of experience and youth certainly were problems, and then as you say, their advisors disappeared, leaving them to fly by the seat of their pants.
Ok off to see what TB said…..
ash,
Thanks! I had a breakdown moment when I got overwhelmed with so many characters but Jenny helped! She made a funny comment about there not being a quiz. I know it was funny but I was putting a lot of pressure on myself to remember everything. Once I gave myself permission Not to have to remember every awesome iron born pirate and other characters it got much easier. I told myself I could go back and research later. And then the next Arya chapter would come!
Tron79,
Like Ash, I totally agree with your last paragraph about Jon and Dany!
Re: Jon: Yeah, it’s kind of circular. Those essays I linked, I thought they summarized Jon’s ADWD conflict well: “Rather than being forced to chose between the Watch and his selfish desires, he must choose between his duties and his noble desires.”
Do you remember when Jeor Mormont told Jon in ACOK? “Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night’s Watch has other wars to fight.”
I think this was the crux of Jon’s arc in ADWD because although he tries to stay neutral, he finds that he can’t when he comes to his own moral ideals. And it ends up inadvertently putting his greater duty to defend the realms at risk.
While Book Jon is somewhat more grey than Show Jon, I think it’s more a matter of “lawfulness”. I think Book Jon and Show Jon share a lot in broad strokes when it comes to morality, basic character traits (although, Book Jon is quite a bit smarter than Show Jon but, still, both get blindsided and don’t anticipate the consequences), desire to protect others, and both will bend the rules if they feel they must but, yeah, while I think Book Jon tries to keep the rules, he’ll bend them.
I think that final decision with Ramsay — Jon freaked out. Here was this monster, openly sullying everything Ned Stark stood for, bragging about flaying women alive, demanding Jon send people to him, and threatening to march on the Night’s Watch if Jon didn’t — and Jon couldn’t take Ramsay’s depravity anymore. And ironically, it was Jon who unwittingly incited Ramsay’s wrath because he couldn’t resist what Jeor Mormont had told him to resist in book 2: he can’t set the world to rights, he has other wars to fight.
I think you’re right about Jon’s dissenters. I also think Jon has another problem wherein he doesn’t account for people not having the same experiences as him. Jon has lived with the wildlings, gotten to know them, gained sympathy for them, he’s walked a mile in their shoes, he knows them as people. His dissenters don’t, they just know the wildlings as enemies. This is kind of reflected in the show as well: Jon has experiences with the White Walkers and wildlings others don’t, which broadens his scope — but other people still lack these experiences. But Show Jon doesn’t take this into account either that much.
You make nice points about Dany too. Jon and Dany both tried to do what they thought was right (each did isolate themselves, as you pointed out) and both did isolate themselves. Jon sent away his friends and supporters in the belief this is what he should do, as Ned had taught him, to avoid showing favortism. And Dany was alone without support, likewise surrounded by people who didn’t like her so much. You’re totally right that they both needed supporters, people they could trust to give them good advice.
Shame Hannah Murray gets no love. She was brilliant and stole every scene she was in.
I too.
The Hound + Brienne of F*cking Tarth.
ash,
I agree with a lot of this!
Best Supporting Actor Semifinals
Results: Stray Observations:
• So much for Bronn being a fan favorite. 49 votes out of 3,263 total votes (1.5%). I’m guessing he barely squeaked in as the #4 or #5 choice on about ten voters’ ballots.
• This looks to me like it’s shaping up to be a two-way race between Theon and Sandor. The question is how the semifinal votes that went to Davos, Jorah, Samwell, Varys and Tormund will be reapportioned in the finals when there’s only 1 selection instead of 5.
• “A chicken in every pot.“
– “Vote for Hoover” (1928)
• “Two chickens in every pot.”
– Sandor Clegane
Vote for Rory (2019)
Tron79,
I forgot to add this in my original response! (And I noticed I repeated myself in the last paragraph, I’m sorry about that!)
And I’m sorry to add more! I thought this also summarized Jon’s struggles well from those links:
For Jon (and Dany too, I think), there was rarely any good option (even with the Pink Letter — since Jon was not going to meet Ramsay’s demands, Ramsay would attack Castle Black in response) — each choice would be compromising something important to them. I suppose it goes back to GRRM’s Aragorn quote where he questions how a leader rules and what does ruling “wisely” mean? I think, just because somebody has good intentions, it doesn’t mean things are going to go at all well and in ADWD, they… really don’t. Jon had a big part to play in his own downfall.
”Shame Hannah Murray gets no love. She was brilliant and stole every scene she was in.”
_____
Hey Jack! For Christmas, can I get you a synonym for “brilliant”?
(Just kidding.)
Ten Bears,
In my life, I like to think of brilliance in terms of saturation. Like, “I found her to be +50 saturation.” Maybe, for an especially brilliant performance, “She was +85 saturation in that scene!” In contrast, if you found an actor/actress to be better than average but the glow is a bit more subtle, “What a great +25 saturation performance!”
When the performance is particularly nuanced, one may go for ‘vibrancy’ over ‘saturation’! 😉 Vibrancy boosts the muted tones, making everything else look brighter!
Can also be used in other areas of life, “What a +45 saturation day!” or “What a scintillating +55 vibrancy conversation!” Conversely, “Dude, that day was so -75 saturation 🙁 My life is grey with only a whisper of faded colour from times long past never to be regained, a life long sorrow as the universe’s Hue/Saturation slider falls to the left…”
/graphicdesignhumourdonthateme
Ten Bears,
This looks to me like it’s shaping up to be a two-way race between Theon and Sandor.
Yes exactly! I keep thinking of Theons arc with Sansa, and Sandors with Arya and I just think its unfair that one will get the award when both (actually all five) were amazing….
Adrianacandle,
I thought show! Davos had a good retort to Jon’s insistence on abiding by the NW non-interference clause:
(S5e3, Stannis, Davos & Jon)
Stannis: “Have you considered my offer?”
Jon: “I have. And I thank you for it. You do me great honor. All my life I wanted to be Jon Stark.”
Stannis: “Say the word and you will be.”
Jon: “But I have to refuse you. I’m Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. My place is here.”
Stannis: “I’m giving you the chance to avenge your family, to take back the castle where you grew up. To rule the North.”
Jon: “I wish I could fight beside you.
Believe me, I do. But I swore a sacred vow at the godswood. I pledged my life to the Night’s Watch.”
Stannis: “You’re as stubborn as your father.”
Jon: “I can imagine no higher praise.”
Stannis: “I didn’t mean it as praise.
Honor got your father killed. But if your mind’s made up, I won’t try to dissuade you.”
***
(Davos & Jon, after Stannis has left the room)
Davos: “He sees something in you. Might not be apparent from his tone, but it’s the truth. He believes in you.”
Jon: “I’m sorry I disappointed him.”
Davos: “The king is a complicated man, but he wants to do what’s right for the Seven Kingdoms, as long as he’s ruling them. He’s the one true king. He has a blood right to that throne.”
Jon: “I’ve sworn to stay clear of the politics of the Seven Kingdoms.”
Davos. “Have you now? How does the Night’s Watch vow go again?”
(to Olly) “I’ll bet you’ve got it memorized since you got here.”
Olly: “Night gathers and now my watch begins.”
Davos: “No, not that bit. The bit at the end.”
Olly: “I am the sword in the darkness, the watcher on the walls, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life– “
Davos: “ – Right, that’s enough.”
(to Jon) ”The shield that guards the realms of men. That’s what you swore to be. Now, I’m not a learned man, but the best way to help the most people might not be sitting in a frozen castle at the edge of the world. It just might mean wading in the muck, getting your boots dirty and doing what needs to be done.”
Jon: “And what needs to be done?”
Davos: “As long as the Boltons rule the North, the North will suffer. Just one man’s opinion.”
Ten Bears,
Davos does make good points — and there will be consequences either way. I remember those issues being raised (the Bolton impact on the North) when this was debated among book readers on forums. From the books, when Jon is trying (unsuccessfully) to dissuade Stannis from attacking the Dreadfort, he thinks:
For Jon, he’s considering his vows and the prospect of a Stannis-led North or a Bolton (or Ironborn)-led North… so he decides to help out Stannis 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
Good for them. i’m kind of jealous. I wish D&D had written some lines for me to speak too. that would be fascinating. Their brilliant script writing is something no one can deny.
That reminds me of this exchange between Melisandre and Jon from ADWD:
Young Dragon,
same choices also 🙂
Adrianacandle,
In some ways, it comes down to whether oaths and principles are absolute. Jon can say he’s sworn to “stay clear of the politics of the Seven Kingdoms,” but what happens when the politics of the Seven Kingdoms threaten “the realms of men”?
I’m also reminded of Jaime’s exasperation (in his conversation with Catelyn) about all the different oaths he swore, how honoring one violated another, and it was just all too much.
Hard and fixed rules with no exceptions: Maybe that looks good on paper; not so much in practical application.
I thought Hannah Murray did a great job playing Gilly. But I couldn’t vote for her for season 8. The writer’s didn’t give her very much to do in season 8. I think her scene with the Teela, who says, “”Alright, I’ll defend the crypt, then.” was excellent, but I remember Teela more than Gilly in that one. I think her season 6 when she visited Hornhill was very well acted. I loved how she defended Sam at the dinner table and all of her scenes at Hornhill.
Ah – JB24 – I still see you’re brown nosing messrs B&W at every opportunity – lol 😛
I completely agree. And when in practical application, things get complicated, resulting in those conflicts.
And that is a fantastic quote from Jaime to Catelyn (which I had to dig up ;D)
Adrianacandle,
A bit off-topic… Thinking back to Stannis’s offer to legitimize Jon….
(S5e3)
Stannis: “Have you considered my offer?”
Jon: “I have. And I thank you for it. You do me great honor. All my life I wanted to be Jon Stark.”
Stannis: “Say the word and you will be.”
…. I’ve always wondered what would’ve happened if Jon had accepted Stannis’s offer? Or if Queen Daenerys had decided to legitimize him?
Would he still be “Jon Stark” after the revelation that he was never illegitimate and was never the son of Ned Stark? I would’ve preferred that he have a Jon Stark vs. Aegon Targaryen identity crisis, rather than … whatever it is that happened on the show.
Ten Bears,
I think, in that case, Stannis would try to have Jon rally the North — but I’m not sure what success that would be met with, in the books at the very least. Jon may still face mistrust for being born illegitimate, particularly once a trueborn Stark kid shows up. However, as I understand it, that Stark would still come before Jon in the line of succession for Winterfell so I imagine Jon would step-aside. I think Jon’s ultimate purpose is defending the realm but probably not as a lord, but as a shield. Personally, I think that would be the importance of R+L=J in the books — the more mystical aspects of that playing into the defense of the realm. I’ve heard speculation that in the books, Jon’s fate may be to somehow keep the Others forced back. But I think Jon’s purpose is as a shield.
I’m not sure what would happen if Dany legitimized him… I think he’d stay warden, which seemed to be the plan anyway, but I don’t know if that’d change anything. He didn’t want his true identity known to the world at large.
I would have loved for anyone to really have explored what R+L=J meant (beyond the political context of claims but into the emotion — Ned constructing this huge lie to protect Jon, risking treason and his family’s safety to keep that promise, sacrificing his reputation and faking an affair as a cover story, Jon having to endure the pain of bastardy and bastardy being the thing that saved his life, etc. etc. etc.) It’s something I waited to see, it’s something I wanted to see, and they cut away from that scene where Bran’s about to tell Sansa and Arya T___T (and I screamed).
Kevin’s gif explains my feelings perfectly 😉
Adrianacandle,
So, I’m not so sure that Cersei didn’t have a part in…
I know Osney was part of Cersie’s plan originaly, but it sounded to me like Cersei also sent those 100 men to the wall. Even without Osney they could have been the ones that Qyburn and Cersei sent. I guess the key is when Wick Wittlestick took his vows! I’m not sure when he first appeared at the wall… I love a good mystery. But you very well may be right and it was just regular NW brothers who got fed up with Jon breaking his vows of neutrality and letting their enemies through the wall. Yes, they don’t think of the Wildlings as people. Sadly, that is what happens in war. The more someone can dehumanize people, the easier it is to kill them. Jon did live with them and fell in love with Ygritte.
I had to go back and re-read the part when the old Bear says “Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night’s Watch has other wars to fight.” He was referring to Jon wanting to stop Craster. I think Jon believes he needs help manning the castles. Since he’s traveled beyond the wall, he knows the danger of the Others. But he really does dwell on the fact that many of the Wildlings who are at Hardhome are sick, women, or children. His heart took over. But even if he would have stressed the idea that they needed the Wildlings to fight the dead, I don’t think he could have convinced them. I don’t think he could have convinced me, since the Wall was still standing and the Wildlings were sworn enemies. Part of the problem is that he didn’t have Sandor as an adviser! Sandor sees the reality in the world. He would have just said the Hardhome Wildlings were already dead. He would have thought of how many would have died on the journey back to Castle Black and how many of the NW may have died. Jon as you say is noble. He has the traits of one of Ser Barristan’s Knights and wants to fight for justice and those weaker. He does have the right idea that he will need the Wildlings, but honestly, so many were children, women, and sick, they wouldn’t be of that much help in the end. Yes, they will add to the Army of the Dead though.
I do think GRRM is teaching us about leadership. I hate the fact that the good leaders end up being ruthless. I hate that the successful leaders have to think 10 steps ahead like LF and Varys. And I hate that Dany will only be successful when she embraces her true Blood and Fire and may end up slaughtering 1000’s.
Quite right. By screen time and story lines in S8 alone, Theon x Sansa and Sandor x Arya were clear highlights. Both of those men came full circle, both came back to defend WF. and both “did right” by the sister(s) by the end.
Sansa went from being glad Theon got mutilated, to embracing him as a brother again.
Arya: From “You’re the worst sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms!” to “Sandor! … Thank you.”
Good stuff!
As much as I’ve liked Jorah and Davos, I’m not so sure they got a chance to shine in S8. And sorry to say that I had been hoping for more from Samwell, and his stolen books.
I thought Tormund, Beric and Varys had some rich scenes in S8; they just missed the cut:
Alfie Allen (685) 20.99%
Rory McCann (495) 15.17%
Liam Cunningham (423) 12.96%
Iain Glen (357) 10.94%
John Bradley (289) 8.86%
________ Cut-Off ______
Conleith Hill (249) 7.63%
Kristofer Hivju (244) 7.48%
Richard Dormer (142) 4.35%
Jacob Anderson (109) 3.34%
Joe Dempsie (75) 2.3%
Daniel Portman (69) 2.11%
Jerome Flynn (49) 1.5%
Pilou Aesback (42) 1.29%
Ben Crompton (19) 0.5%
Anton Lesser (16) 0.49%
Supporting Actor: Rory McCann. It was between him and Iain Glen, but Rory got more screen time and he made the most of every second of it.
Supporting Actress: Gwendoline Christie and it’s not even a contest. Brienne had an absolutely amazing final season. So many powerful scenes and great moments for her to really, truly shine.
Tron79,
Yeah, I don’t really know what became of those 100 men?
I think it was that one faction of Night’s Watchmen headed by Bowen Marsh, the ones who were most upset, but.. yeah, maybe some of those 100 men did filter through and become part of the Marsh crew?
I can’t remember a thing about what became of those 100 guys.
Agreed on your comments with some of the Watch brothers and the wildlings :/
Right! I was more referring to that quote as a theme — perhaps even foreshadowing — of the conflicts Jon himself would face when he was Lord Commander (his desire to help individuals, such as Alys and Arya vs. his greater duty) and what choices he would make.
I really agree with much of what you’ve said, especially about Hardhome mission. I think the Hardhome mission especially was a humanitarian mission at heart, it was a more emotional focus on the people — women and children. And despite being unpleasant people who don’t give a f*ck about the wildlings, Bowen Marsh and Selyse do have a point. I also think Jon had the right idea and it was a humanitarian effort — but is it feasible? Would it put the greater duty at risk?
Oh man, that’s depressing!! XD I’m hoping this is more of an examination on the struggles of leadership, how to use power, the inner conflicts associated with it, and what it means to rule well. It seems to be such a fine balance. Even when somebody has a good heart, it doesn’t mean they won’t run into problems, face those impossible conflicts, make mistakes, and get frustrated (especially with very young leaders. Jon’s 17/18, Dany’s 16/17) — but there’s also that Jon and Dany each had successes too. In regard to Jon, GRRM had this to say:
There have been some peaceful rulers in Westeros that have done well!
Excuse me, I meant to say it was between Rory and Alfie, with Iain as an honorable mention, but I’ll give this season to Rory by a hair.
Allen, Bradley, Cunningham and Glen did a tremendous job, but since it’s about s8 I want to say “Thank you” to our beloved Hound, so I voted for Rory McCann 🙂
And Gwendoline, of course!
Alfie Allen !!!! And Gwendoline Christie.
I quoted Pigeon’s comment, stating that I completely agreed to her, and finally mentioning that my choice for Best Supporting Actor was, after some internal debating, Rory, because he made me love the Hound so much.
My comment was marked as spam and I don’t know why.
Edit: it seems it has worked this time.
And Gwen, of course!
Out of those actresses, there’s only one choice…Gwen. But the actor category is HARD. Alfie and Rory would both be deserving. I could kind of understand picking John (not really for just S8 though), or Liam (he’s been great, but actually he too didn’t have all that much to do.) For some reason I chose Iain. Maybe because I knew he’d be an underdog even though it’s not his fault he got killed halfway through. I dunno. He did a great job, and I have no mixed feelings or issues with his role even if it was predictable, given that that’s the death he’d have chosen for himself. Soooo, Gwen & Iain for me, I suppose.
Jack Bauer 24,
She sure was! She only had a small role in season 8, that’s the only reason I didn’t vote for her, but she was perfect in every scene she was. All the casting of GOT has been perfect, that’s why I love the show so much. And to be honest, every actor/actress on the show should be a winner.
Tron79,
Congratulations! You made good progress towards the end. And now you are just like the rest of us, theorising with the same information over and over. That’s how we remember the books so well, we’ve been talking about them for years lol.
Oh I was so tempted to say something about Dany, I’m quite proud of myself for keeping quiet. This passage in particular is quite ominous.
You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros. “It is such a long way,” she complained. “I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl.”
No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.
“Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass’.
I think this is her accepting her Targaryen nature (notable that it is in the form of manipulative Jorah) after suppressing it in the quest for peace, she had ‘chained her dragons in the dark’. She is a compassionate person, but she is also a conquerer who believes that she is in the right. She’s been battling with herself, and in the end… you get the above passage. She has a phrase that she repeats over and over in head, ‘if I look back I am lost’, here she thinks back and reflects on her decisions for the first time in God knows how long. She finally thinks about the girl Drogon killed, and she can’t even remember her name.
I think she will destroy all of her enemies, and word of this will spread to Westeros, turning them against her before she even arrives. They will choose fAegon instead. I don’t think this is her going ‘mad’ but she has had enough, and she’s going to stamp out the uprising. No more talk of her being ‘just a young girl’, she’s taking control of the situation.
RE: The moons blood, some people think this was her having a miscarriage, or a sign that she can become pregnant again in the future.
When Jon and Dany meet, you can see why they would connect to each other and view each other as kindred spirits. They are thematically linked.
Tron79,
I loved reading your book comments. It’s been a long while since I read the books and I don’t know if I’ll ever reread them if they never get finished. But It was interesting to read what you were thinking and Andrianacandle also gave interesting analyses. That’s why I love this site so much.
Tron79,
I’m glad you enjoyed it! A few points:
Personally, I felt Aegon, or FAegon, was one of Martin’s missteps and the show was better off without him. He seems to be an unnecessary addition that’s bogging down the story and will most likely be just another obstacle for Danerys to overcome. Martin certainly hasn’t put in the work to justify Aegon’s existence, as he basically has no personality. The only thing I remember is he threw a temper tantrum when Tyrion beat him in a game. He reminded me of Joffrey, just not nearly as interesting.
The ending of Dany’s story in Dance was very good, I just didn’t like how mind boggling slow and how repetitive it was to how we got there. Personally, I enjoyed her show arc more.
I too thought Quentyn’s death was hilarious, but I doubt that was the reaction Martin was going for. His chapters ended up being completely pointless.
The reason the show didn’t follow where Martin was going was because he doesn’t seem to know himself. Otherwise, we would have the books. Also, you need to understand that there is a reason the show was able to succeed where Martin failed. Martin may have bitten off more than he can chew and is clearly struggling to bring all the pieces together. The show managed to avoid these pitfalls by condensing the show into a more manageable story.
Young Dragon,
Yes. I agree with your points. I would add that I think GRRM enjoys writing for all of those extra characters perhaps even more than his main POV’s. He should write an entire book about pirates. He comes to life when describing the colorful Ironborn characters. I think he follows his characters down tangents and then enjoys living in that world (like the Quentyn Martell Dorne arc…but I did quite enjoy how that arc ended!). Something the 3ER said in the show just popped into my head, and GRRM probably should have listened…”It is beautiful beneath the sea, but if you stay too long, you’ll drown”
I’ve only read parts of “Game of Thones” (that’s the only one of the books I own). But I do know the broad plot points of each book.
Am I the only one here who doesn’t want to read the books until they’re finished? If I really start them I don’t want to be hung up on them forever – a betting man would bet on those books never being finished, unless GRRM has a change of heart about someone else finishing his work after his death.
It took him 11 years to produce a full cast-spanning set of chapters in the form of “Feast for Crows” and “Dance of Dragons”, so it stands to reason it takes him another 11 years to make “Winds of Winter” which should also be 1.5K-2K pages. But he’s also busier now than he was then. So book readers may get that book within the next five years if they’re lucky. But “Dream of Spring?” Fuhgeddaboutit.
Jenny,
(CC Tron79 if you’re interested!),
I also think Young Griff will be part of Dany’s eventual spiral. In their discussion of the endgame on their westeros.org YouTube channel, Linda Antonsson and Elio Garcia theorized that Young Griff will rally support in Westeros (particularly Dorne), winning the love of Westeros and Dany will view him as the threat. And that he’ll defeat Cersei, winning King’s Landing and approval from the people.
Meanwhile, they believe Dany will grow darker in a more “painful,” gradual process and she will be feared in Westeros with her foreign army — in contrast to Young Griff, who wins Westerosi support. They speculate she’ll take King’s Landing and by doing so, Dany believes she’ll get everything she wanted (they say how she’s reaching into her past, referencing how she’s looking for the house with the red door), believing King’s Landing will be home but through the conquest, she destroys it, destroys what she believes to be her home. They don’t think the city’s total destruction will be as intentional as it was in the show, where Dany was strafing streets one by one, but that when she’s conquering King’s Landing with the dragonfire, it’ll set off the wildfire caches under the city and the people will blame her for doing this deliberately. But Linda doesn’t think Dany will do her show “liberation” speech where she declares she’ll “liberate” the world after she’s got King’s Landing. Instead, Linda believes Nissa Nissa will be a thing and the Others won’t be over in a single night, it’ll still be an issue by the time Dany takes King’s Landing. They believe Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa will be why Jon kills Dany (they point out that before Aemon left Castle Black, he told Jon that he had a passage in the Jade Compendium marked for him to read, wherein Jon finds the story of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa) and that Jon’s fate is perhaps to keep the Others forced back.
Anyway, it’s just a theory!! But I like how it connects Dany’s search for home with her eventual conquest of King’s Landing. With the main characters, I believe their endings will be more or less the same as the show but achieved in ways with some variances.
Ten Bears,
Jerome had only three scenes, I’d have been surprised if he had got in. Bronn’s best seasons were probably 4 and 2. He had a good season 7.
Farimer123,
You could be right. I can see not wanting to read if there really is no ending. But I can say that right now I’m not left feeling in the dark. Yes i want to see where it eventually goes but I thought the last book had a great ending. As a show person i feel like I learned so much more about the characters. Arya’s arc has a totally new spin for me that makes it even better for me. I have hope that Dany’s arc may follow a more understandable path one day than what the show did. Tyrion is not the idiot that he was shown to be in the show for the last two seasons. I am actually left loving the show even more. I do understand the hesitation but at least for me it was well worth it and I’m left more intrigued by what may happen and I’m not really worrying about how it will all end one day. (Or if spring remains only a dream)
Adrianacandle,
Is Linda…. me? This is exactly my theory! I’m so unoriginal lol. I mentioned in the other thread that the Dany bells thing might have been inspired by Jon Connington, who will flip out when he hears them signalling Dany’s invasion. My guess anyway.
I think her destruction of Slavers Bay will be intentional, but KL will be more of a collateral damage thing, she will obviously cause it in some way, there is no getting away from that but it won’t be quite so… I don’t know how to describe what we saw.
This was an easy choice for me at least. The Hound and Brienne. That is not to say that the rest were not worthy choices by any means…
Gwendoline and Rory.
Gwen, of course.
But having to choose between Alfie and Iain is cruel. Not to mention I always loved Rory´s performance as well.
Farimer123,
I just don’t understand what his problem is. We saw the ending of all major characters in the show and they are perfect. Every single ending is great. And I can only imagine details and naunce that he can add. So he has great ending in his mind, why not write it already?
What is the reason for writing being so hard for him in the last 20 years? Just do more detailed novelization of the last 3 seasons of the show and you have it.
Yeah! … My word for it would be “willy-nilly”? XD
And Linda might be you! ;D I find these are nice theories which I believe do try to explore the themes of ASOIAF, particularly as they come more intense, and the threads/ideas in these characters’ arcs. It’s nearly two hours but if you want to listen to their full thoughts, they’re here 🙂
Similar to your saturation and vibrancy ratings, I’ve sometimes applied copy/printer paper quality metrics to other things in life: At the lower end of the spectrum, something drab and flimsy is like 92 Bright, 20-lb., cheap paper. (It’s almost grey rather than white, ink bleeds through it, and it tears easily.) Then at the other end of the spectrum something very special is comparable to 100 Bright, 32-lb premium paper used only for special occasions. It’s the purest white, provides the best ink-color contrast, is real sturdy – and is quite expensive. (32-lb cotton paper is ideal for resumes and personal letters intended for posterity.) A “very good”, impressive performance or experience corresponds to 100 bright, 28-lb paper.
I’m rambling. It’s just that in everyday life I prefer reading and writing things on real paper, rather than scrolling through ghostly images on a computer monitor and using temperamental keyboards to create ephemeral digital text. (Anyone here who’s ever typed out a long comment or reply, only to have it disappear into That Page Not Found Purgatory or simply vanish into the ether, might understand why I’m wary of digital text.)
– Sorry for the detour. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. –
Wow, this one is hard because all the actors were simply put, extraordinary, and they did as much as they could with what they had.
That being said, Im gonna go with my queen Gwen who is just… well, a godess and with Alfie Allen because man, that guy has been severely underrated for years, I really hope to see both of them (well, ALL of them!) in new an projects! For now, we have Alfie in Jojo Rabbit which is one of my most anticipated movies of the year along with Parasite, The lighthouse and The farewell,
But now that I thin about it… I have a question… what happened with Gilly? I mean, yeah, we know she is pregnant with Sam´s child but, isnt he supposed to be a Maester? And arent maesters supposed to abandon their previous lifes and families? So that means the chid that they have will be a bastard and she has no garantee of a prosper life or inheritance for her children if/when Sam dies… Maybe he is the Grand Master (somehow lol) and also the Lord of Hornhill? Seriously, what happens with House Tarly? My god, The Reach is an absolute mess lol.
Ten Bears,
Oooh, thanks for the paper-quality scale! I may use that myself (also, thanks for the tip of optimal resume paper!). I’ve used something like that in regard to various art papers (like watercolour paper — you get what you pay for. For most purposes, 140lb cold press paper from a quality source works best Anything that’s poorer quality, you’ll hit a saturation point, the paper will stop absorbing the colour and you’ll get white spots. Anything higher quality, it’ll still be great but then it comes an issue of stiffness — 140 lb vs 300 lb and what’s necessary for your purposes. I haven’t been able to master hot press paper at all T__T That’s a different area of expertise!)
Yeah, I’ve thrown books across the room in a fit of rage but not because the book returned a 404 error, one of its programs shut down on me before I could save, because the book stopped working, corrupted my files, or the paper became lines of monitor failure (my dad has fixed so many of my old Macs and phones… he calls me “The Destroyer” 😥).
I once listened to this podcast and it was talking about how we’re entering a Dark Age. While the internet seemingly keeps things forever, the content we produce can only be accessed via specific technologies. If those technologies fail, we become unable to access these devices, and we don’t have copies on paper, are they lost forever?
Then again, when I’m having to draw manually, my hand cramps up and I subconsciously move to hit Command+Z for undo T__T
… And I’m sorry for continuing this detour!
Well, the writing they had to work with was nominated for an Emmy, so they had more to work with than most actors and actresses, but still, that doesn’t at all diminish their incredible performances.
MaxHightower,
We have similar lists.
I did not know Alfie was in JoJo Rabbit. I had that movie on my list, now I will move it closer to the top.
The Parasite is worth seeing.
Pain & Glory and The Irishman are also on my list.
And I agree that all the actors did the best job with what they had. I usually criticize Emilia Clarke but she also delivered in S8. 2019 was a “weak” award year and it was GT “golden watch” year – so GOT showed up on many lists that it would not have made under normal circumstances. But yes, the performances were strong even if they were uttering rubbish.
Adrianacandle,
Oh thanks for this, I will bookmark it for later.
BTW I voted for Alfie and Gwen of course.
MaxHightower,
Sam is a maester with a concubine and a bastard son named Jon.
I think he dropped out of the Citadel so it is unclear how he became a maester and I do not quite remember how Sam managed to get out of the Night Watch. Didn’t GOT start with Ned killing a guy that abandoned the NW? He should see Sam now.
Since I’ve been following your recent journey through the books, what you wrote makes me less apprehensive about starting them. I’ve been reluctant to become immersed in the ASOIAF world, only to be left hanging – a frustration so many readers have expressed.
I’ve said before that it would not have been terrible if the show had ended with S6e10. Almost all of the storylines ended on a high note. Sure, the White Walkers threat remained unresolved and long-awaited reunions hadn’t happened yet. Still, I would have been content with an ending consisting of the revelation of Jon Snow’s parentage morphing into his coronation as King in the North; Arya Stark avenging the Red Wedding (i.e., turning Walder Frey into a Pez dispenser after carving up his two damn moron sons); a triumphant Danaerys on the bow of her flagship leading her massive fleet and dragons on the voyage home; Sandor accepting the BwoB’s invitation to “help a lot more than you’ve harmed,” and even Cersei taking the Iron Throne after incinerating that smarmy High Sparrow and his forehead-carving dweebs. I could have “fanficed” my own resolutions that tied up whatever loose threads were left.
You wrote that “Arya’s arc [in the books] has a totally new spin for me that makes it even better for me.” That’s intriguing. I should look forward to that. Even so, I would be satisfied if her story ends where GRRM left it
I’d be interested in your reactions to
(Mercy): “…Can’t you walk?”
“Walk?” His fingers were slick with blood. “Are you blind, girl? I’m bleeding like a stuck pig. I can’t walk on this.”
“Well,” she said, “I don’t know how you’ll get there, then.”
“You’ll need to carry me.”
See? thought Mercy. You know your line, and so do I.
“Think so?” asked Arya, sweetly.
***
I found it delightful the way GRRM wrote that chapter from the POV of and in the inner voice of the Mercy personna – until the switchover in the last two lines above (thought Mercy ➡️ asked Arya)
If GRRM never releases another book,
“Mercy, Mercy, Mercy,” she sang sadly. A foolish, giddy girl she’d been, but good hearted. She would miss her…
(Back on topic): As for the Best Supporting Actor candidates, I’ve got to assume their characters’ fates in the books will align with the show:
Theon, Jorah and Sandor got second chances and in effect were living on borrowed time anyway.
Bookish Samwell was GRRM’s avatar so he isn’t going to die.
And Davos is the “everyman”, the voice of conscience, and the audience stand-in, so he’s destined to be around at the end. (I think on the show he said something like: “Don’t listen to me. All I’ve done is live to a ripe old age.” He’s like Hot Pie, who assured Arya he wouldn’t get himself killed because “I’m a survivor.”
Mango,
You’re calling Bodyguard, Killing Eve, Handmaiden’s Tale, Better Call Saul, and Succession “weak”?
Mango,
Jon deserted the Night’s Watch, too. “I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night AND ALL NIGHTS TO COME.”
When Edd pointed this out to Jon, Jon didn’t try to dispute it. He simply didn’t want to stay any longer. Where were your complaints then?
Ten Bears,
GRRM claimed that the main difference between the show ending and the book ending will be with the supporting characters. If anything, I could see the fates of those characters you mentioned being really different, but yeah they’ll probably be dead by the end.
P.S.: Davos’s quote is “Yeah, nobody mind me. All I’ve ever done is live to a ripe old age.”
Chilli,
Thanks! It’s helped to be able to talk to you guys, because I’m really not a big reader. Looking at 5000+ pages can be a bit daunting, but I really didn’t want the show to end. Also, although I can’t say I agree with Jack that the ending was brilliant, I also am not one that can’t live with the show ending. I appreciated it for what they accomplished. But I really wasn’t ready for it to end. Perhaps the disatisfication people felt about the ending was partly why I decided to delve into it. I wanted to see where GRRM was going and where the show differed.
I apologize for folks if I don’t reply to everyone today! There have been some great comments. I really want to finish the sample chapters today and get to the Arya Mercy chapter. I want to get back to Ten Bears. He wrote lots of stuff in a different thread. I will be checking back after I read the samples and I will do my best to respond to everyone. I enjoy being able to talk with the book folks now about subjects they have been stewing over for literately years!
I will say that one thing that made it better for me is that I did already have an ending in my head from the show. Perhaps it wasn’t the ending I would have liked or understood fully, but it wasn’t like reading a book with no ending. I’m just excited now to see where GRRM may eventually take things because the books went in different directions. Many times the same dialoge and scene would happen using a different character than the show! How disorienting! I have hope for Tyrion that GRRM won’t treat him like D&D did in those last two seasons. His story is left in a great place and I am happy he’s more remorseful about Shae in the books. Alot of Tyrion’s scenes in the show can’t be the same in the books because it’s really a different story. GRRM really does have great endings to each of his 5 books and I love how he pulls everything together at the end of each of them, so there is hope for a great ending one day. I am with the folks that believe there will at least be a WoW. Either way, I’m really happy I took the plunge and I feel like I have alot of research to do now. I will be reading those essays soon that Adrianacandle talked about.
Farimer123,
He said he doesn’t watch television at all so I don’t get why he acts like some sort of expert. I would be shocked if he even watched Breaking Bad.
Farimer123,
The main difference is that the show ended when Jon killed Daenerys and the books when Varys killed Kevan.
Sam did get permission to go to the Citadel to train to be the Maester at CB, and he was correct when he parsed the NW vows to conclude they didn’t actually forbid fornicating.
However, you’re absolutely right that everything else he did violated his vows and should’ve been punishable by death:
Take no wife and father no children? ❌
He knocked up Gilly.
Pledge his life to the NW for all nights to come? ❌
He abandoned his assignment to train to be CB Maester and unilaterally decided to steal some books and go to WF. Nobody let him out of his NW vows. So yes, he should’ve been executed on sight as a deserter. He didn’t even have a decent excuse like that NW ranger in S1e1 who freaked out after seeing a WW turn his fellow ranger’s head into a bowling ball; Ned executed the poor guy anyway. Nor did Sam have a loophole like Jon, i.e., “I died so I’m done.”
I have no idea how Sam wound up as Grand Maester. (I think he was even wearing that gaudy GM chain in the last scene.) Maybe he got an equivalency degree at Trump U? Even applying LF Jetpack-type time compression, I don’t think enough time had passed between the Battle of WF and the concluding small council meeting for Sam to have returned to the Citadel to complete his training.
The only explanation? King Bran repealed ALL laws and vows binding NW brothers, and eliminated eligibility requirements and qualifications for becoming a maester, including Citadel approval. (Or perhaps Bran got around the Citadel confirmation requirement by appointing Sam as Acting Grand Maester.)
It all kind of diluted the gravity of “taking the black” and devalued earning a maester’s links.
I thought the NW had been disbanded and that sending Jon there was kind of a joke? Because he was the only member? That said Sam isn’t even a Maester, so I don’t know how he could become Grand Maester. Not worth wondering about.
Tron79,
”…Something the 3ER said in the show just popped into my head, and GRRM probably should have listened…”It is beautiful beneath the sea, but if you stay too long, you’ll drown.”
F*ck! That reminds me. I really thought that was a “hung gun” or foreshadowing that Bran would wind up stuck in a time loop, e.g., because he had to find some critical information in the past to defeat the WWs regardless of the personal risks; or because something would happen to his catatonic real self while he was tree-tripping that prevented his consciousness from returning to his body.
In the end, his warging & greenseeing superpowers really didn’t have much of an impact, did they? (Yeah, he did function as a surveillance drone by warging into birdies. I just thought… after the freaky past Wyllis-present Hodor brain frying in “The Door” that there’d be more to it.)
King Bran the Broken made Samwell the Grand Maester. It’s really that simple. It was a really fun ending for Bran the Broken and Samwell. I love it.
Ten Bears,
After he destroyed Hodor I think the point was that he will never mess with the past again, but I agree that this should have been told out loud.
It would underline why he is so better than “they don’t get to choose” queen. Person with so much power letting others choose their destiny after he destroyed innocent boy is a great contrast to Daenerys’ entitlement.
Adrianacandle,
Agreed on everything. But, it’s the Lannister’s fault, not Jon’s. Had they not sent Jeyne Poole to pose as Arya, this wouldn’t have happened. They completely annihilated the Starks and now it’s time that they pay –and I can’t wait for it to start happening in WoW.
Lol.
I voted for Rory and Gwen. At least they had some kind of an arc in season 8.
Alfie had a redemption arc, Davos ended up on the small council, Samwell dropped the AeJon bomshell/became Grand Maester, and Iain helped defeat the AotD and protected his Khaleesi. They all had arcs.
Dracarys!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nathalie Emmanuel should get more votes IMHO –
I voted Rory and Nathalie Emmanuel
Tron79,
“Book Jon really tries to bend the rules as you describe and his last decision of just going to take Winterfell from Ramsay seemed a bridge too far even for his reasoning.
You can’t go marching south as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch.”
I think there’s a catch there.
So the thing is, how far is Marsh’s crime to be justified in this context? Yes, Jon doesn’t have any siblings since he joined the NW, and yes, he only has one war to fight. But WF is close, Ramsay’s threatening the peace with the Free Folk he has managed to forge, thereby the defence of the Wall from the Others, and Arya is being raped at 11 years old.
And Marsh knows that the Free Folk turn into Others. Still, he chooses to ignore Jon’s reasoning and turns against him. This isn’t a justified murder/mutiny, even if Jon has made mistakes. Even if Jon never resurrected, Ramsay would march North against CB. What then? Marsh refuses to see farther than his own nose.
It’s like Jon’s line to him: “Are you blind, or do you not wish to see?”
Farimer123,
No, you’re not the only one. I’ve read them and loved them, but don’t want to do so again because it just hurts that they’re not finished.
My daughter grew up with Harry Potter mania and breathlessly awaited the publication of each book. I waited until they were finished, then read them all at once. No one saw me for about 10 days. 😂
mau,
“Every ending is great.”
While I’m at least okay with every character’s ending, I feel quite a few people would disagree with ya there.
On the other hand, as far as the major characters go, what happened with them in the show is probably like 80% of what will gonna happen to them in the books. But there’s no way GRRM would just watch what S6, write WoW based on that, then watch S7 & S8, write DoS based on those, then call it a day. ASOIAF and GOT have been separate entities since day one.
mau,
Spoiler code, dude!
Jack Bauer 24,
Ah nepotism, wonderful.
Jenny,
The King can appoint whoever he damn well pleases for whatever position he wants. That’s the law of the land.
humm…could have been more of a Bronn type of plan where just give me 20 good men… I didn’t pickup on that..
Farimer123,
When I say great I say they fit major characters perfectly and themes of the story as well.
Every big moment of the last 3 seasons feels like natural plot point from the books so more detailed and nuanced version would work really well.
Yeah, Bran’s arc really hardly gets started in the books, so D&D didn’t have much to go on. And D&D seemed to really not want to go with the fantasy/magic elements. For me, I really enjoyed those parts of the book. The Bran chapters are really well done in the books. His powers are beyond just seeing through the bird’s eyes. He’s seeing through the tree network, and eventually he is told he wouldn’t need the trees. There are hints about changing history.
The skinchanging (warging) is much more prevalent and interesting in the books.
They really just touched the surface on Bran’s powers in the first 5 books, and GRRM has to have something large in mind for his arc and the White Walkers beyond just watching Raven TV.
Farimer123,
Jaime and Cersei leaving the world together, Dany burning KL and being killed in front of the Iron Throne, Bran The Broken, Tyrion as his hand, Sansa as queen in the North, Jon going north of the Wall, Arya going west of Westeros,…
Perfect ending for the books. GRRM should just write it and stop wasting time on pointless shit.
I agree. It was with a wink and smile that they sent Jon to the wall. There wasn’t really a NW anymore. I didn’t mind that part. What bugged me was that Jon was haunted by what he had done. He ended up as King Beyond the Wall with followers who loved him (and smiled at him). In the final scene of the series, he briefly smiled back at them but then he switched back to his pained face thinking about what he did to Dany. That part is really sad. I hope he doesn’t end up that way in the books with a life of pain and regret.
woah… I responded to your post in the other thread but I totally missed your point about Raff the Sweetling. I honestly forgot who Raff was and I looked it up and saw that’s Raff the Sweetling! Arya has a much better memory than me. That’s one of those things where I felt like I needed to take notes about the characters along the way. I know who he is now! Yes, you’re right. That’s a direct call back.
Ten Bears,
btw, it’s not Polliver who kills Lommy in the books, but Polliver does still take needle..
Jenny,
Regarding Dany and the moon blood…
During his usual walk through the forest, Lord Parramandas finds two notes nailed on the door of his crumbling manor. After checking first that the door is still locked and that nobody found their way into the sublevels, he unveils the two parchment rolls. 5 names on first, 4 names on second. The first one is hard… all 5 names wake some pleasant memories in him through past 8+ years. But thinking of these specific last chapters, two names quite stand out… taking a moment to think, Lord Parramandas takes a quill and circles the name “Alfie Allen”.
The second parchment is easier. While he has good memories of all 4 names, he outright knows who is the one that stood out the most in his opinion. He takes the quill again and circles the name “Gwendoline Christie”.
Wrapping up both parchments again and pressing a seal on them, he summons two ravens who carry the parchments to the nearby valley where the gathering has been called, knowing they’ll arrive into the hands of right people. After that, he takes a stroll on the path again and leaves this forest.
Tron79,
”What bugged me was that Jon was haunted by what he had done. He ended up as King Beyond the Wall with followers who loved him (and smiled at him). In the final scene of the series, he briefly smiled back at them but then he switched back to his pained face thinking about what he did to Dany. That part is really sad. I hope he doesn’t end up that way in the books with a life of pain and regret.”
F*cking Tyrion’s fault. What was it again that Tyrion said in his “confession” during his trial in the Vale? Something about how he isn’t particularity good at violence, but he’s good at getting other people to do violence for him?
Tyrion should’ve done the assassinating. He’s the one who “believed” in Dany, and thought he could rein in her worst impulses. He’s the one who overestimated his powers of persuasion, and realized he’d allowed himself to be blinded to Dany’s dark side. Yet, when the demon money concluded Dany had to go, instead of doing it himself, he got poor Jon to do violence for him.
Thanks Tyrion. 😡
mau,
”After he destroyed Hodor I think the point was that he will never mess with the past again, but I agree that this should have been told out loud.
It would underline why he is so better than “they don’t get to choose” queen. Person with so much power letting others choose their destiny after he destroyed innocent boy is a great contrast to Daenerys’ entitlement.”
I like that explanation. Too bad B & W didn’t have you to polish the scripts and make that clear.
(So… Bran’s committed to following Starfleet’s Prime Directive? I can live with that.)
Well, Tyrion may have been charbroiled if he tried to get past Drogon!
But Drogon did like him earlier! But he could have hired a FM. There was one close by who I’m sure would have been willing. That would have been a twist!
I think I said in another post that I think D&D kind of wrecked Tyrion. Book Tyrion goes on a different path than the show. He’s still clever by the end of book 5, and I just read his sample chapter in WoW today. He’s not afraid to fight in the books even though his body isn’t designed for it. I really don’t think GRRM will go there (with a scene with Tyrion convincing Jon). Tyrion is a plotter, but he has to line up his pieces on the board. He’s a crevasse player in the books (kind of like a battle chess game) and he is really good at it. I said this already, but I am happy he is at least somewhat remorseful in the books about Shae. In the show, I just couldn’t get over his murder of Shae and how it was handled. It does haunt Tyrion quite a bit in the books as it should. It’s even brought up in the sample chapter of WoW about how he doesn’t think he deserves to live because of what he’s done, but still his desire to live is strong.
Tron79,
whoops I was thinking of Tyrion’s up close and personal with Viserion and Rhaegal…not drogon…
I chose John and Gwen.
Tron79,
I love what you wrote about the books, and I agree I think D&D could have bring a perfect screen-version of what what’s written in the books, doesn’t have to be a close one, I don’t mind when half the scenes in a season is not from the books (season 3 and 4 for instance), but I think the core scenes should have a same feeling.
Somehow I found it very lovely, don’t know why. I understood you remembered my name wrong, but you tried at least to remember it and refer to me all the time.
And your welcome, and I’m happy you enjoyed it. Now I will wait for you’re WoW chapters, and I hope you as I did like this endings better.
kevin1989,
They could have….
Ten Bears,
What was it Tyrion said once?
“I’m not particularly good at violence, but I’m good at convincing others to do violence for me.”
mau,
I wonder if you really read grrm explanation: He had too many projects at hand and that result in that he can’t zone out of real-world problems (Like do we get the right budget, do I did that call etc) and he can’t zone into Westeros and live the characters at the moment.
As for the second statement: He already have his road-map clear and knows exactly where to go, but his problem is getting that on paper. You can have the whole road-map into your head, but for making a book you also need to put it on paper like it’s alive and not just like what the show did, plotpoints to get as fast as possible done.
So no, please don’t do the road map of the show in the books, go with the road-map he has planned for the books, I rather have that on paper.
As for the last 3 seasons, I recently did a reread and rewatch. I reread the first 2 books then the first 2 seasons, and now I’m reading the third novel after that season 3 and 4. But when watching season 1 and 2 I already saw plotholes from the later seasons, like D&D didn’t know what they wrote in the first 2 seasons, and even dismissing storylines they hang guns off in the first 2 seasons.
And you seems to make a lot of assumptions to back up your opinion that doesn’t seem to back-up the truth (like the reason why GRRM is late with the books is not what GRRM said) and I wonder why you do that and not make your arguments with the words of GRRM himself why he is late. Did you forget it, or just don’t believe his words?
As for the whole: Why did they include this characters when they died in the same book. Did we forgot Robert Barateheon, or Ned or all the Stark secondary characters in the first book or Renly etc. Why introduce them when they were going to die? Wasn’t that because it was important for the story? Did it not push the story to the next level in the next book? So the same is about the characters that only were in 1 book in Dance of Feast. They are there for pushing the story to another level for the next book, and yes we don’t know what that is till the next book is there.
Same as for the whole negativity of Aegon to be only a opponent for Dany to fight. Why he is there. First his character is already introduced in the first book, talked again in the second book in the house of the Undying. Once again talked about in book 3 and giving hints that he is still alive. So his storyline was already started in the first book. Second his personality is gradually build for a reason, like many characters. Many characters in the books are talked or seen in a book and only in the books later they are established better. Tywin, Gendry, Hot Pie, Beric Dondarion and more were introduced in book 1 as characters without personality and only in book 2 and 3 their personality come forward. 3. Many characters in the books are there only to be as an opponent for the main-characters to push them to a certain point. Joffrey for Tyrion and the Starks. Ramsay for Jon and Theon. Walder Frey etc. Their only goal in the story is being an opponent for our main characters to push them to certain points. Without these characters the story would have fallen flat. So Aegon being there to being only a opponent for Dany is not bad in fact it’s what is done since book/series 1. And with this character there’s lot of connection to other storylines/characters. Varys, Dorne (started with Oberyn), Tyrion, the past with Jon C, Rheagar, Mad King, Dany’s red door memory etc. All storylines started since the first book, that come together with this one character. Even halfway through SoS I see many and many clues about that George had this storyline in mind all along, especially when reading Varys conversations with Tyrion and flashbacks that talk about Jon C and the deaths of Elia, Rheanys and Aegon.
Here rest my long post. Sorry for the reading.
Tron79,
Cyvasse, not crevasse—or has the Imp taken up mountain climbing as well as scheming and saddle design?
-Stannis
No. Upon my rewatch of all 73 marvelous and magnificent episodes, there were no “hung guns”. I didn’t see any plot holes and Seasons 7 and 8 flowed perfectly following the first 6. I was already amazed, but I’m even more amazed after a complete rewatch of the brilliant job done by Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. I think the problem is that people are trying to piece stuff together from years of staggered watching. There were year breaks between seasons and sometimes longer. When you watch the complete series in succession it’s perfect.
Ten Bears,
I think GRRM will release Winds and Dream. But I think Dunk & Egg will not get a new book. I think the only 3 books he will finish are Winds Dream and Fire and Blood part 2. But I don’t think Dunk and Egg will see another story in the future.
If GRRM finish Winds I’m absolutely certain he will finish Dream. How closer you come to the ending, the less storylines are left hanging, less characters to take care off. Less points, prophecies, things from the past etc need to be resolved. And I expect Winds to end 40% of the storylines, and the first 200 pages of Dream will end another bunch. And I think when he closes half of his storylines the rest is easier to write. And also most writers write the current book but at the same time they are writing snippets of the last book. Most of the time and I expect that GRRM also did this, They have written the last chapters of the books already long before getting there, and when they get there only need to revise things.
Many writers have stated that that the last book is the easiest book in the saga to write.
kevin1989,
Dude no the last book is by far the hardest. There’s so much pressure and anxiety that you’ll mess it all up.
Actually, according to his schedule, he plans to write a Dunk and Egg book after he finishes Winds before moving on to Spring.
Young Dragon,
*Insert Roblex death sound here*
kevin1989,
Too long.
Farimer123,
After every book fans think new book will be easier. It’s never the case.
Tron79,
Young Dragon,
It’s tells you everything you need to know about his passion for the books.
Young Griff is terrible storytelling. Let’s break this down:
If he wins, he removes the Lannisters, a group every one of our characters have a reason to hate and replaces them with someone they don’t care about either way
He cripples Jon’s arc because being the second living son of Rhaegar changes almost nothing
He removes the conflict point between Jon and Dany because neither have a claim.
He removes the conflict point between Dany and Tyrion because Tyrion is no longer going to be fighting his family
He turns secret Targs into a meme and makes you wonder if Targaryans ever actually die in Westeros
If he is a Blackfyre, he requires a massive amount of exposition for literally no other reason than a surprise twist.
He introduces a pointless conflict when the series has bigger issues to deal with. The Others are gearing up for war, it makes NO sense to play War of the five kings 2: Electric Boogaloo, especially when you need to introduce a whole new character to justify it. He is single handedly going to force the series to extend beyond 7 books. It took two full books just to resolve the last war.
Young Griff is a terrible idea on every level. From the perspective of story, plot, characters, theme and the simple fact that there are only two books left, he is a mistake.
fAegon removes any reason for the vast majority of the cast to care who sits on the Iron Throne because unlike Cersei, he has done nothing to wrong them. He undermines themes about the nature of power and the fact that the small folk don’t CARE who sits on the Iron Throne. He introduces a massive, convoluted backstory for no other reason than to justify his existence. He undermines the importance of Jon because suddenly, secret targs are a dime a dozen and removes any conflict between Jon and Dany because suddenly he is ahead of both of them.
Rory and Gwen.
I find these kinds of things nice to put on when I need something to listen to for a few hours 🙂
(I voted for Gwen and Alfie too!)
Jack Bauer 24,
There were a few plot holes, but not nearly as many as people say, not even close. Long Claw didn’t kill wights at Hardhome, but Valyrian steel worked on them later on, wights can’t swim but they somehow managed to get the chains around Viserion to pull him out of the lake, and Jaime said he strangled his cousin when he really beat him to death with a rock. That’s all I can think of, which is very impressive, considering the scope of the story. All television shows have flaws. People are simply more critical of GOT than any other show, for reasons known only to them. Besides, the positives of GOT are high and above anything else on television, so GOT’s flaws are basically inconsequential.
Jack Bauer 24,
It’s by far perfect, but it’s still amazing and better than most shows.
– The horn of winter introduction, which is not really a plothole because when not used it was not a problem with how they introduced it so I let this slide.
– Talisa was introduced for a reason, and her backstory was there for a reason. But Volantis was not what her story told us.
– Varys character. He was the one that urged to have Daenerys poisoned, and was the one that got that information for Illyrio and he was the one that made sure to poison Daenerys. That means also that Illyrio plan wasn’t Daenerys and neither was Varys. (Which in the books make sense because we have Aegon which was the plan). In season 2 Varys states his fear for Daenerys and her Dragons. And later in 5×01 Varys states the plan was always Daenerys. Really the one you wanted dead and feared is the one you backed up this whole time? This is a huge plothole.
– When Mellisandre put her necklage off in season 4 she didn’t grow old, but she did in season 6.
– Robb and Talisa marrying before the seven when Robb follows the old Gods and neither Talisa followed the faith of the seven.
– And there were some other continue errors in later seasons, that seemed to ignore some things happening in the first seasons.
For me in the end it doesn’t matter, I just enjoy watching every episode over and over again. But to state it’s perfect from beginning to end is just not true, objectively speaking. Subjectively I just enjoy the episodes no matter what.
Efi,
Thanks, Efi!
You’re right about the Lannisters and I do think Jon had a pretty impossible choice there, no matter what he decided, it’d come with major consequences — still, I think Jon bears ultimate responsibility for his choice because he’s the only one in charge of his brain but what a terrible, terrible choice :/
For me, it’s hard to say what will happen in Winds. I think it’ll be chaos at the Wall though post-assassination.
Re: Ramsay, I think Jon knows Ramsay doesn’t have Arya? He wrote to Jon, demanding Jon send her back but Jon doesn’t have her either.
mau,
His work ethic is much to be desired.
Removing a character you have 5-6 seasons of emotional investment in AND a top-notch actress playing to replace with another character who you not only need to establish, but need to retcon in heavyhandedly into a Tarygaryan AND who takes the wind out of the sails of the far more important Jon revelation would be terrible storytelling. There’s a reason why “fAgeon” is usually called fAegon. Because literally the only redeeming aspect of his character in the books is the possibility that everything about him is a lie. And IF the fAegon theory is correct, you now also need to summarize the Blackfyre Rebellions and pour a massive amount of lore onto the audience… all for no purpose other than to retcon your original retcon and establish the character. So you now have lied to the audience twice about who your new villian is… but you still expect them to be emotionally invested in his defeat, despite the fact you have barely any reason to care.
FAegon is everything you shouldn’t do in trying to finish a story. It’s soap opera level characterization—there’s a reason why “everyone is a secret Targ” has basically been reduced to meme status since he was added. Either he is and you wonder if any Targaryen ever actually dies in Westeros or he isn’t and you’re now wasting valuable time selling your audience on a lie.
kevin1989,
1. That wasn’t the horn of winter. It was a normal Night’s Watch horn. Not a plot hole.
2. Not sure what you’re talking about with Talisa. The only thing we really knew about Volantis from her was that it was a slave city. When Tyrion and Varys visit, it’s a slave city.
3. Varys’s poisoning attempt was explained in season 7.
4. Melisandre added many potions to the bath that may have been keeping her young. Also, she may have grown old because she had lost faith.
5. Where does it say Talisa doesn’t worship the Faith of the Seven?
That’s not what many big writers like Rowling and King and other’s state. A while back I even saw an interview with a dutch writer on TV here, and it was about writing a book, he stated that the last part of the story is the easiest to write because that’s where you have been working to, meaning it’s pretty clear what you need to write there. And most of the time you write that around the same time you write the first pages of the book. He also talked about Saga’s and how the middle books are the hardest to write and the last book the easiest because of many reasons I stated in my comment above.
Yes you want to do the last book justice, but as for GRRM and his writing he does that with all his books, he is a perfectionist with everything. That means that that won’t be a bigger issue in his last book than it is with his first or second.
– GRRM probably writes winds and dream simultaneously, he probably have already written many snippets and chapters of his last book. For instance if Dany burning KL is really happening in the books, it would be a chapter a writer would write first to make clear where it’s heading. That means when winds is done, he already have written the first 200 pages of dreams (which is his way of writing to make sure the cliffhangers are right), and he probably would have written a lot of snippets or chapters of the ending of every character. And only need to revise that.
– Less storylines also mean less switching persona: GRRM writes his books by getting into the heads of his characters. Who they are etc. Less POV means less changing from persona to persona.
– Less storylines also mean more straightforward storytelling (like the first book compared to for instance 3 4 5 and 6), meaning less changing thoughts from one storyline to the next. I expect at the end of winds, he have finish Areo Hotah, Damphair, Victarion, Barristan, Jon Connington and Theon (this one I’m not certain). At the beginning of dreams I expect Cersei to be gone if not in winds. I expect Jaime and Brienne to be intertwined in storyline that is about the WW treat. Jaime’s dreams states that. I expect that the second part of dream will end Arianne’s storyline (and that also means ending Aegon) and Varys and LF storyline. And I expect Jaime to fall in the war against the Other’s. Another gone. Then the last phase can begin with Tyrion, the starks, Davos and Daenerys.
– asoiaf is a big jigsaw puzzle, GRRM have made many mysteries about the past, and prophecies that needs to come to forfilling in the next 2 books. Those mysteries are all connected as one big piece. All those pieces that are left are still circling, the more pieces he put on the table and put in writing and finish them, the less pieces remain that he needs to take care off. Meaning that less stuff needs to be taken care of to write.
– What’s damn hard about the last book is in fact the last chapter, and more the last page and especially the last sentence, that’s the hardest part where many writers takes the most time with the last book. Did it end with the right words. For the rest, the way Martin works his last book is less straining than winds, with the big amount of stuff needed to be sorted out.
This is a great article about the no necklace Mel Season 4 scene. 3 strong reasons why she didn’t turn, or why the audience didn’t see it.
https://www.bustle.com/articles/157427-game-of-thrones-melisandre-has-taken-off-her-necklace-before-so-why-didnt-we-see-her
I will look at that, because what I remember he stated he will finish winds and dream, after that fire and blood and only after that Dunk and Egg. But I take you’re comment very seriously so I will look it up.
I looked it up, it seems he only said he will look into dunk and egg after writing winds of winter. And even that it’s possible that dream will be his first concern then.
kevin1989,
Martin was at an event in London and someone tweeted what he said:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Werthead/status/1159538545989734401?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-28969650972322584674.ampproject.net%2F1911062056110%2Fframe.html
The wights underwater was not a plot hole. They waited until the lake froze over to retrieve the body. Even if they can’t swim, that doesn’t mean they cant walk on the bottom of the lake and attach the chains. They can’t drown since they don’t breathe. There were plenty of them down there to do it.
mau,
kevin1989,
I forgot to add comment link, but couldn’t edit it above. It was marked as spam. So I will do it this way.
Bryan Cogman had this to say…
“Shotgun wedding! Of sorts. They wanted to get married and there was a septon readily available. At any rate, Robb was raised in an interfaith household — he could very well have spent as much time with with Septon Chayle growing up as he did in the godswood. So I don’t see a problem with him having a Seven wedding. But I guess a lot of people do cuz I get asked that question all the time.”
That’s not a plothole.
Right..it’s cyvasse… I even looked up how to spell it! I must have copy and pasted the wrong listing.
https://cdn.myminifactory.com/assets/object-assets/5aa183819e2ef/images/720X720-https-cdn-thingiverse-comrendersc6114e37bc100-4501-display-large.jpg
Young Dragon,
1. They included that horn for a reason and they made that close up of the horn for a reason, that scene was filmed not to show the dragonglass, but the horn. If the horn was not the horn of winter than that scene was horribly filmed. There was even a reference that the place they found it the CotF fought in the past. And also that the package was centuries old. But as I stated I don’t count this one as a plothole. They probably were more like: If we go with the horn plot it is in, if not then it’s just a night’s Watch horn.
2. It seems I was wrong here, I though they didn’t do the tattoo’s on the slaves but they did.
3. How is poisoning Daenerys in season 1, working for the people?? And it seems you missed my point here. Varys and Illyrio talked about invading Westeros putting the rightful ruler on the IT. So what was the whole point of poisoning Daenerys about? Why would you poison the one that you want to bring to Westeros? You can’t invade if the one you are fighting for is death.
4. Don’t need to make excuses here, even D&D (or Cogman) admitted they made a mistake here and they forgot about the necklage.
5. Volantis follow mostly the lord of light. The seven is not really believed in Essos. She never made any notion she follow the seven. Which is even made clear in season 3. 1. She doesn’t know a single thing about the seven about traditions. She doesn’t know what Cat made in episode 2 that mothers do who believe in the faith of the seven for their children. And more over, she doesn’t know anything about the bedding ceremony, which is part of the faith of the seven. Everyone who follow the seven knows about the bedding Ceremony. She did not.
I’ve already debunked you’re 4 and 5.
Young Dragon,
Thank you, but I rather want to see his real quote, instead of a reaction of somebody.
Jack Bauer 24,
Thank you, but that still doesn’t make sense. I don’t see somebody who have the faith of Islam to go marrying by a priest, or visa versa. That doesn’t make sense. Why would Robb anger the gods he believe in? Even his followers despise the seven (1×10: Even their gods are wrong. Spit on floor). And Sam in season 1 made it clear how big of a deal it is when you forsake the gods of your house-hold. I understood it with Jeyne because she followed the seven. So I understand what Bryan Cogman says but for me it doesn’t make sense.
Jack Bauer 24,
You didn’t debunk 4, even the writers state they made a mistake, but they are probably wrong too? But this is not called a plothole, but a continue Error.
@kevin1989 Varys is pledged to the people of Westeros, not a king or queen. At that time way back in S1, they thought Dany was a possible threat that was going to invade and conquer (ironically she ended up trying to do that in the end). After everything that went down in KL, he thought Dany was the right answer for the 7 kingdoms so he pledged to her until he saw her descending into madness in the end. I love that Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss had Dany say to Varys in Season 7 “Swear this to me, Varys: If you ever think I’m failing the people, you won’t conspire behind my back.” They planted the seeds brilliantly.
kevin1989,
Wow, you really have thought this out scene by scene! That’s amazing.
I was with you for awhile, but then it started getting complicated for me to follow.
You were still going with the show decisions for the characters and that made it more difficult for me.
I think ADWD came out two years after they started filming season 1, so I think they still had enough time to adjust the storylines to fit the books closer. But they also took lots of liberties with combining characters and storylines. Perhaps they thought that Jon’s heritage would eventually be enough, since in fact he will be the real Targ and also the better choice that Varys wanted all along.
That being said, I would have rather they stuck closer to the books now that I read them. However, I do think they had certain scenes that weren’t in the books that I thought provided additional action and drama for TV that I would have missed. It bugs me that they took certain scenes with exact dialogue from a book character and had another character say them in the show! However, I can see eliminating certain secondary characters for the show when they didn’t really change the overall story arc. I think FAEGON has to be a big part of the story arc in TWOW though. I think leaving him out of the show is taking liberty with the adaptation a bit too far imho. I am by no means a book expert though and I just started thinking about all of this. Many others here have thought about this for years and years, and I’m playing catchup (not ketchup, catchup). These are just my first impressions. I honestly loved how book 5 ended and I would have wanted to see them do it that way in the show. On the other hand, if the show was closer to the books, I would have totally missed Arya’s additional scenes with the hound that are in the show. The Hound has a much bigger role in the show than the books. I would have missed Arya’s relationship with Tywin. That’s one of my favorite parts of the show. So I guess I can’t have everything, but maybe I can be OK with appreciating both book and show.
I can’t find a quote anywhere of them saying that.
So you first give a person an army of Dothraki screamers to invade Westeros, than later wants to kill that person because she is going to invade with those dothraki screamers because she becomes pregnant. Makes sense. Why not just kill the person before she gets in bed with the Dothraki screamers?
Yes Varys makes sense if you don’t take that scene in 1×05 in account. But that scene was there, so it needs to be taken into account. Killing a person for having an army that can invade your country, because you gave them that army doesn’t make sense to me. And even 1×05 states that you’re wrong here, Illyrio and Varys talk about that it’s too early too invade and that war of 5k need to wait till the time is right that they could invade. Watch that scene again. Varys talks about wanting the war of 5K and talking about invading Westeros with a foreign army. So how does it make sense that he wants to kill Daenerys when he states earlier he wants to invade?
kevin1989,
1. I think you’re looking too much into it. They spent more time on the dragon glass than they did the horn. Sam, Grenn, and Edd didn’t even address it or draw attention to the horn in any way. In fact of the three items they pulled out, the cloak, the horn, and the dragon glass, the horn is the only one of them that didn’t get a shout out. There was absolutely no indication that the horn was anything other than a normal Night’s Watch horn. The horn of winter wasn’t even mentioned. Not once.
3. It was Viserys they wanted on the throne. When Viserys died, they thought their plan failed, so Varys attempted to assasinate Danerys to stay in Robert’s good graces as he considered his options.
4. It doesn’t matter what they said. My point still stands.
5. The Lord of Light seems to be a relatively new religion. Regardless, Talisa could always change faiths. Sam did when he swore his Night’s Watch vows to the old gods and Stannis did. But the rest of your post stands. Still, as Jack said, it’s perfectly possible that Robb practiced the religion of his mother.
Tron79,
Young Dragon,
1. That’s why I said the way it was filmed was that it could go either way. They chose to film it with, if the horn is in, we have filmed it and put it in, and else it wasn’t in the show.
3. Doesn’t make sense. Viserys was still alive at that moment. Viserys died later than the meeting of Varys and Viserys. There was even talk with Robert that Viserys was going to invade.
5. The thing is if Robb practice the faith of the seven, Talisa should have shown it after that she changed to it. She married before a religion that she didn’t show any sign of being interested into knowing. Or getting to know. So even when I enjoyed that scene and understand the reasoning of just wanted to get married. It feels out of place.
ps. I try to get some sleep now. So I will react tomorrow.
I’ll have to go back and rewatch. Between you and YD, I’m getting mixed up here on this Varys, Illyrio, Viserys, assassination timeline.
kevin1989,
The books still had an important relationship between the hound and Arya but the show made the relationship even stronger. I can list several Sandor scenes from the show that I thought were important for show Arya’s growth that weren’t in the books. However book Arya has a much better Bravos HOBAW arc (IMO). They had some differences because they combined some characters. One example was the show Farmer and daughter scenes that i thought were very effective.
kevin1989,
That wasnt horne of winter. It was just horn that random member of NW used. if the horne was really focus of the scene they would have said something about it. The focus was dragonglass.
That horne is typical example of book readers overthinking things and then blaming the show when it becomes clear they made mistake.
Tron79,
I think you are ignoring a very important fact. Youn Griff is just introduced in the books and he did nothing important yet. So to expect the adaptation to follow something that doesn’t exist is too much.
I don’t think even GRRM had idea what exactly to do with him in 2014 when D&D wrote S5.
Tron79,
Nah, it was probably your phone’s spellcheck. I just love having an excuse to be Stannis. Or the Minister of Grammar, as Bronn would have it. 😉
/refills hippocras
Varys was only pretending to support the assassination of Dany and Viserys. Together, he and Illyrio plotted to restore the Targaryens to power, as is evidenced by their secret conversation under the Red Keep. Furthermore, it’s not certain that it was Varys himself that set up the poisoning via the wine merchant. He only appeared to support this in front of Robert. As to who set that up, we’re not sure. If it was Varys, recall that he exchanged letters with Jorah, who ended up stopping Dany drinking the wine, and that could very well have been on intel from Varys’ letters who is in fact trying to foil the assassination.
Tron79,
I assume in the books Arya doesn’t kill Meryn F*cking Trant.
.
Unlike some viewers, I didn’t mind the brutality of MFT’s death. After all, Arya only had what looked like a small oyster knife, so she had to be quick enough to poke him full of holes to incapacitate him.
My only two regrets?
(1) After the way MFT had gotten his jollies beating Sansa, bloodying her mouth and punching her in the stomach in S2, I really wanted a scene in which Arya let Sansa know that she took care of that motherf*cker.
(2) I also wanted Arya to mention offhandedly to Sandor that Meryn Trant’s dead and she’s not ‘cause Trant didn’t have armor or a big f*cking sword; only a stick.
regarding Trant… and I will be a bit cryptic only giving away a few things…
But the book took a different path. Arya Stark of Winterfell does creep back in at some point and she becomes the blind girl, but it’s not with Trant and it’s not with someone from her list. However at some point Mace Tyrell may show up in WoW, because he is still sent to Braavos later in the books to meet with the Iron Bank. It just doesn’t happen by the end of the book. In general, book Arya sticks closer to her no one training, and the kindly man (Jaqen) and waif are much nicer to her. They even tell her that she would have been made blind anyway as part of her training and her lapse just sped things up a bit. It’s not until the Mercy sample chapter that she avenges someone on her list in Braavos.
It was a gruesome scene when you think back about it as Maisie talks about in some of her interviews. But I couldn’t help but cheer, because he had it coming and Arya had held back alot until then. I like your stick line.
Funny about the minister of grammar! Yep, that autocorrect can be quite unexpected sometimes…
kevin1989,
1. Except, as was mentioned, they did not focus on the horn. At all. There was absolutely no reason to believe it was anything other than a typical ranger’s horn.
3. Viserys was alive when the order was given, but he was dead by the time the assasination attempt was carried out.
5. Talisa had her whole life to learn Robb’s religion, or so she thought. She married Robb because she loved him, not because of his religious background.
So, I do get what you’re saying. I was also thinking that ADWD came out a little later, but after checking the weirwood network, it was published in July of 2011. That’s about 2 years after they started filming the pilot back in 2009. So I do think they had time to fit it in. I think my reasoning for wanting include Griff is all emotional….
Tron79,
Include what again? Plot twist? Introduce a character you have no idea what to do with? Introduce a character that made GRRM unable to finish the story?
I can’t see any wise reason to introduce all those characters that ruined the possibility for the books to ever have an ending.
But you just read the books. Once initial excitement goes down and after several years of waiting you will realize all those storylines made more damage than they helped the story.
Is plot twist worth that much really? Benioff and Weiss would have been respected more if they put him, LSH and the rest in the show and then they cancelled it after S5?
And I don’t get this comment that GRRM brought everything together at the end of ADWD. That book didn’t even have an ending. GRRM’s editor said she forced him to end the book before natural endings(battles at WF and Meereen) so that book ends without natural conclusion, with bunch of cliffhangers.
It would be like ending ACOK before Blackwater.
Tron79,
Agree, the show Sandor Arya was an amazing adding, smart move on D&D part 😀
mau,
As I state, I was not saying this was really a plothole, and I understood why they did it. They didn’t state the horn because of the simple reason that was. If you want the horn to be in later season they would have had a scene with Sam where he would talk about the horn he found and the horn could become the horn of winter. But they decided not to include the horn of winter so the horn was just a horn of the NW. And after sleeping on it, I think this way they did it was a smart move on D&D part, whichever way they were going with it, the story was intact with it.
GRRM already put him in the house of the Undying, even Jon Connington being at the Sorrows smiling was in the house of the Undying. George knew exactly what he wanted with Young Griff and Jon C. Why else include a scene in the house of the undying with Jon C being a stoneman and smiling while he stands at the sorrows.
The thing that many seems to misunderstand is that book 5 was only meant to be an introduction of Aegon and his revelation. While his story would take place in book 6. Like we heard of Stannis in book 1 but not see him until book 2. Or Tywin, or the Beric Dondarion, we saw him in book 1, named in book 2, and only in book 3 we saw him.
And I expect if D&D had include him, GRRM would have helped them with implemented that storyline. But as stated before in the past, I think a huge problem lies also with GRRM, if he had finished winds, D&D could have implemented many storylines with adaption instead of making up every scene. They had more work without the books, which they didn’t have. But I think that problem would have arised in season 6, because season 5 could have been all about the books.
Enharmony1625,
This argument falls flat because of one thing. There didn’t need to be a talk about poisoning Daenerys if Varys didn’t tell about Daenerys pregnancy, but he did. If he really wanted to help Daenerys, he wouldn’t have told Robert Daenerys was pregnant and only waited till Daenerys gave birth before telling it.
And if Varys is working for the Realm, why does he want a group of savages, who rape, plunder and murder and making slaves good for the realm?
yes, lots of cliffhangers, but…
Best Supporting Actor: Rory McCann. They were all outstanding, but for me it was Rory’s work in “The Bells” and his final goodbye with Arya that gave him the edge. He was such a critical part of Arya’s storyline, especially in Season 8, and that was a perfect moment for his character.
Honorable Mention:
2) Alfie Allen
3) John Bradley
4) Iain Glen
5) Liam Cunningham
Best Supporting Actress: Gwendoline Christie. People will rightly cite the knighting scene as her defining moment, but I’d also like to spotlight her incredible acting during the scene when she writes Jaime’s achievements down in the White Book. It’s never once failed to move me to tears. One of my favorite scenes in the entire show.
Honorable Mention:
2) Nathalie Emmanuel
3) Bella Ramsey
4) Hannah Murray
Tron79,
Maybe the difference with how you feel about the cliffhangers, is that you read the books after the show had finished. While most people here, read the books years ago and have been waiting years and theorising for years. If you have to wait so long for a resolution it becomes frustrated.
Young Dragon,
5. But Robb follow the Old Gods not the new gods.
Tron79,
mau,
First of all, stop using fake-facts to make your arguments, especially when GRRM already gave the reason why he still stuck on the books, but instead of using in your argumentation what GRRM told his fans, you keep on spinning the fake-fact in your head to support your arguments.
GRRM is not stuck with the books because of: Not knowing what to do with the characters. As stated above already by me, he introduced Aegon and Jon C already in Clash of Kings, he knew exactly what to do with them. And so did he with the II, he introduced all the brothers there, Euron, Victorion and Damphair.
GRRM didn’t finish WoW because he is busy with all his projects. This prequel, that prequel, his charities etc. If you head is full with: What’s the budget, do I get the deadline of that event for my charity, did I make that call to personA if he comes to the charity etc you can’t zone into your fictional world you’re writing.
So I can’t take you serious when you talk about the books when you’re keep using fake-facts to back it up. I can understand you hate that storyline/character and are glad it wasn’t in the books etc But I can’t understand why you deliberately ignore GRRM own statement and keep on hammering on “He doesn’t know what to do with the storylines”, when that argument is already debunked by GRRM himself.
mau,
I agree with you here, the battle of Meereen should have been in Dance. But that problem lies with the deviding of the books. He should just have made Feast a book of 950 pages like Storm was. now it was ca 200 pages. If he included 250 pages more into Feast, it would have made room for 250 pages in Dance. And he could have include the ending of the battles etc.
mau,
I agree with you here, the battle of Meereen should have been in Dance. But that problem lies with the deviding of the books. He should just have made Feast a book of 950 pages like Storm was. now it was ca 200 pages. If he included 250 pages more into Feast, it would have made room for 250 pages in Dance. And he could have include the ending of the battles etc.
Tron79,
Already read Winds chapters?
I think that’s very true! I at least have an ending. It may not be the ending I would have hoped, but at least it is an ending, so if nothing else that show ending is always there. After reading the books though, I’m more hopeful that there may be a different path to the ending that makes more sense for the characters. Perhaps that is why I was also excited.
I’m about 1/2 way through Sansa’s. So I read the first 4 or so…
I ended up printing the rest out… I’m not as used to just reading them on the computer screen now, but I’m reading them in your recommended order!
Chilli,
Same here, I wish the books were done already, but I don’t blame it on GRRM writing. But his priorities are off.
Tron79,
I’m very excited what you found of every chapter.
Tron79,
I’ve read Dance before I watched the show and I would not discount your emotional brain and it’s reactions. It may turn out these reactions you’re having now will stick. It’s not true that you need a couple of years to see the uselessness of a character (if it really was useless) or enjoy his own story for what it is (aka Quentyn). I personally still think after reading and rereading these books that Dance was probably the most complex, the most engaging and the best of the bunch 🤷♀️ I’m not the only one either.
I read your comments and reminds me how excited I was when I finished ADwD too ☺️ Ser Barristan chapters are amazing and his duel with Hizdahr zo Loraq’s bodyguard ranks very high in my preference for best chapters. I loved Jon’s as well, Mel’s only chapter was a highlight and Tyrion’s complete breakdown and ugliness of feeling, then remorse and finally return to the land of the aware and intrigue was just delicious. But all of it was good as far as I’m concerned.
Congrats in finishing the published books and well done you!
Alifie Allen & Gewndoline Christie for me.
TormundsWoman,
Thanks! You really summed up how I felt quite well. I loved all of the same things you mentioned. And I also agreed with Alfie and Gwendoline. They were my votes too.
kevin1989,
What does Dany’s pregnancy have to do with it? Robert wanted Dany dead regardless of whether she was pregnant or not. He wanted all Targaryens dead. Furthermore, pregnancy isn’t something you can just hide, so eventually it’s very likely it would come out, and what would Robert do if he knew his best spymaster didn’t tell him about it or didn’t “know”? That would seem suspicious. Varys had to do what he had to do in order to remain in Robert’s good graces — it’s a dangerous and fragile game he’s playing.
I would have loved this too! Argh.
During the lead-up to the Emmys after season 5, the script for 5×10 was released, and there was a deleted line during the scene where Arya kills MFT where she asks him where Sansa is, and if she’s okay. I wish they hadn’t cut that line. I guess it’s because they wanted to really focus on the coldness and the brutality of it, or maybe they felt it was too forced..? I don’t know, but I think it would have been a nice nod to the books where Arya thinks about Sansa and getting back to her.
This is what I had been thinking, but then George stated that he hasn’t written any of ADOS yet.
I thought that too. Particularly as she drew attention to the potions by asking Selyse to pass her one – “not that one – you don’t want to know what that one is for” or wtte.
So I was giving them a pass on the absence of the necklace, until they focused on Melisandre discarding it on her last walk. So yeah, it was a continuity error, she should have been wearing it in the bath.
kevin1989,
If GRRM knew that do with him the books would have been finished. Puting hint about him in second book doesn’t mean he actually has plan how to develop that storyline.
Tron79,
Dany’s last chapter is good, but it feel like first or second. And not the real climax of the story. And it was actually. Originally Dany’s storyline started with Daznak pit. But GRRM lost control over his story soo much that event that he planned as the start of her storyline in ADWD was actually at the end of it.
kevin1989,
All other projects are there as an excuse. He is typical procrastinator. He can’t focus on the main thing, he lost passion so he is doing everything else. Which is fine. But don’t expect me to trust his empty words.
And introducing a character doesn’t mean he knows what to do with them. Benioff and Weiss introduced Rickon and they clearly had no idea what to do with him. Or with Blackfish. Or Edmure.
Your mistake is that you trust that there is some great plan behind everything GRRM does. There is not.
I never knew that! And yes, I too feel they definitely should have kept in Arya’s line to MFT asking about Sansa:
• In the scene, as aired, she only brought up MFT killing Syrio Forel.
When she followed up with questioning: “Do you know who I am?” [*gut stab*] I can’t hear you. Do you know who I am? I’m Arya Stark.”, that would have been an appropriate time to interrogate him about Sansa’s whereabouts and welfare.
(At what point in the unedited script does the since-deleted line appear?)
• While I don’t think Arya would have first-hand knowledge about MFT’s abuse of Sansa after Arya had escaped KL, she knew MFT was a Lannister thug/Kingsguard who had tried to take her by force during the violent purge of the Starks. It wouldn’t be a stretch to surmise that MFT and his oafs would’ve taken Sansa into custody and that he’d know what happened to her.
• But most glaring was that Sandor had imparted two significant tidbits of information to Arya about Sansa:
In S3, Sandor told a sulking Arya that he had rescued Sansa from gang rape and murder by a mob during the riot in KL (and he challenged Arya to “ask her if you ever see her again” if she didn’t believe him). In S4e10, while trying to goad Arya into mercy-killing him, he told her about what he “should have” done to Sansa the night the Blackwater burned; in S4e1, Polliver mentioned during his faceoff with Arya and Sandor that he’d heard Sandor had “turned tail” and run during that battle. So, as far as Arya (and Sandor) knew, Sansa was still in KL at least as of Sandor’s departure.
And when Jaqen Arya initially invited Arya to Braavos, she had turned him down because she said she had to find her family – including her sister.
– Sh*t. Didn’t mean to ramble. If the show had included all of the scenes on my wish list, we’d be tuning in tonight for the S9 trailer😀… and then lighting up the comments sections to figure out what the f*ck to make of the split-second glimpse of Kinvara standing over a battered corpse in the rubble of KL.
Enharmony1625,
I can already see haters screaming how D&D are hacks and Arya couldn’t possibly know that Trant had any sort of relationship with Sansa.
I mean they screamed when Sansa knew about Ramsay’s dogs. This would be too much for them.
It doesn’t, but it would have been a bit unusual for a Volantene to follow the Seven. It’s far weirder that Robb, the supposed King in the North, would have married in the Seven. But that may well have been purposely done; after all, Lyanna was married in the Seven as well—and both she and Robb wound up dead.
(Reply, Part 1)
Allow me to jump on the bandwagon. Rory McCann was so, so good in that final goodbye scene, particularly the way he transitioned from his usual gruff demeanor to soft and compassionate:
S8e5 “The Bells” Sandor & Arya
(0:45 – 0:49)
After yanking her back by the arm, he barks at her:
“…and look at me.
Look at me!”
(0:54 – 1:10)
Then, he turns on a dime, gently cradling her head and speaking tenderly to her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSenpGeeThk
We’ve heard so much about how GRRM’s likes the theme of “the human heart in conflict with itself.” Rory McCann was the catalyst for that conflict to play out and resolve itself in Arya’s storyline.
That last scene comes full circle for Rory McCann and his portrayal of Sandor in another way…
(to be cont.)
Enharmony1625,
What was the reason why Robert didn’t listen to Ned anymore to kill Daenerys? Her pregnancy. In 1×02 he did listen to him to let it go.
As for her being pregnant, the only one that knew about her pregnancy was Jorah and the Dothraki, nobody else knew. Varys got to know because Illyrio told him, because Jorah told him. So the news about her being pregnant could take a while and they could have waited. And it’s even strange when people think Varys stopped Daenerys from being murdered. Varys was the one that ordered the assassination on Daenerys Targaryen, he was the one that bought the wineseller to give the wine to Daenerys. Then we have to pardon of Jorah, which stopped the wineseller from poisoning Daenerys. What’s the problem here? What if Jorah was there 30 seconds later, Daenerys would have died. Which is pretty strange because a letter is faster send from KL towards Vaes Dothrak than asking to order somebody to get murdered and put everything in place. And how did Varys know that Robert would hire 2 faceless man to just end the lives of Daenerys and Viserys in that moment. And wouldn’t Varys live not be in danger when the news came that Daenerys survived the attempt?
The more logical could be that Illyrio and Varys wanted the invasion to go faster, which they even admitted in 1×05. No delay, speed up. It would made more sense that Daenerys was suppose to die so it would anger Drogo to invade as soon as possible to put Viserys on the throne. Which also give another problem: Why would Illyrio and Varys want Viserys on the throne? They knew what kind of person he was, how is he good for the realm?
But didn’t Varys not state that he wanted the Wolf and Lion to being at each other’s troat sooner and no delay with it. He even stated that the war was going to happen too soon. Which means that it was suppose to happen just before the invasion so the Targs could be the ones putting back the peace. But that moment in 1×05 doesn’t show a Varys that wants the best for the realm in my honest opinion.
And why would somebody who wants Peace in the realm, the realm to being invaded by Dothraki savages?
Grandmaester Flash,
Oh really, most of the time writers work that way, not really the final version but snippets and peaces, but I think George need to have that in his mind at least, he needs to know the prophecies and the past at least in his mind. Especially the way he wrote the house of the undying.
Grandmaester Flash,
This.
Tron79,
IMO it’s really strong in the books as well, but they’re far harder characters (everyone is, save Sansa), and the Hound’s love for Arya is shown in subtle ways that might not translate as clearly or immediately on screen. My favorite is
mau,
He knows what to do with it but his writing is not plotbased. Its character-based. Meaning he writes through the minds of the character, and if a character doesn’t want to go to a certain plotpoint, he is not going to add the “This character is suddenly not himself or suddenly stupid.”, he invents ways to get to that same place but with being true to the nature of his characters.
And as I said before, he even admitted it was about not getting zoned into Westeros and into the minds of his characters because of project problems.
And If GRRM didn’t know what to do with his story in book 6 and 7, that would also mean he couldn’t have tell D&D his plan for those books, and that means that D&D couldn’t have put GRRM ending on screen. Or the plotpoint halfway through. They did as you stated before, that means that GRRM knew what he wants to write. And didn’t D&D tell that they had hours of talk about where the books were heading?
And even many fans can theorize where GRRM is going with Aegon and Daenerys and those theories were even before Dance was put into the stores, it was all theorize about Varys plan that Aegon was part of it before he becomes alive in Dance. Meaning that GRRM knows probably what Aegon’s part is in winds.
As for Jon, what’s his importance from his past that he is Rheagar’s son. Many are too cling on, the Iron Throne. With Aegon he is not the true heir. Etc. My guess is that reason for his past has nothing to do with the IT, it has too do with that Azor Ahai Reborn needs to be a Targaryen, and my guess is that it needs to be a child of a Targaryen and a Stark. Both are magical. The Starks have the power from the first men, warging etc. Targaryen’s have other things they can control, like bonding with Dragons. That’s why Jon’s past is import, The Prince that was Promised.
I even have a idea how the books will end with Certain characters but it will go against what many people think, I for once think Aegon will survive the books. But that later into another comment.
And about GRRM not finishing the books. I already expressed many times that I dislike his work attic. He knows the projects are the things that kill his muse, and I still am not ok with him being busy with everything that withhold him from his main story. And he should have never give away the rights of his books in my opinion before he finished the books. (And only after that sell per book instead of the whole saga)
Yes, he wrote this in his blog back in May, and it is unambiguous:
“I will, however, say for the record — no, THE WINDS OF WINTER and A DREAM OF SPRING are not finished. DREAM is not even begun; I am not going to start writing volume seven until I finish volume six.”
http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/page/5/
kevin1989,
Knowing a plot point and actually having a storyline is not a same thing. If he knows that Young Griff will take the Throne and then Daenerys will burn KL when she goes mad, that’s not nearly enough for D&D to actually include him. Benioff and Weiss struggled with even some established characters like Bran when they only had few plot points about their future. Can you imagine how hard it would be for them to write someone completely new from nothing with deadlines that they had?
It’s just not a reasonable thing to expect.
GRRM spent 8 and a half years trying to write next book. And you think D&D can just solve all his knots in like 4-5 months that they have to write a season?
Jared,
(Reply Part 2)
I do not know if this was deliberate: When Rory/Sandor barked “Look at me!” to command Arya’s attention (and get her to look away from her target), it made me flash back to his audition that won him the part ten years ago, and in particular, the way he uttered those same three words:
(Rory McCann audition tape circa 2009*)
0:13 – 0:17: “Look at me. Look at me!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDYiFu5uSo
* (Note: Rory McCann was “confirmed for the role” on Sept. 23, 2009.)
I recall Benioff and Weiss, perhaps in an Episode Commentary, recounting that when they were watching Rory McCann’s audition tape, they jumped out of their seats when he uttered those three words. That convinced them they had found their Sandor. I’d have to search for that particular Episode Commentary.
I did, however, find a GRRM livejournal entry describing how Rory was cast as Sandor Clegane. (See Part 3 to follow.)
… to be cont.
mau,
If there is not a great plan of GRRM that means that he couldn’t told the great plan to D&D which means that what D&D put on screen is not going to be in the books. And the ending of D&D is not GRRM ending. So what is it, does GRRM not know where his story is heading and the show ending is not the ending of the books, or does GRRM know his plan and the book ending is the show ending?
But even D&D told us that they had a 2 days talk with GRRM about where the books are heading and that GRRM told them the big strokes of very character.
Grandmaester Flash,
Oh I remember that. I don’t mean really writing the book. And maybe it goes against his writing style. But most writers put snippets on paper about the prophecies for instance etc. But maybe that doesn’t work for him.
mau,
I agree with that. They at least must know what the plan is. But even many fans stated amazing plans for that character that would have been amazing. So they could even start writing the beginning of that character and make their own interesting plan with it. I think they could have done it. But agree that would also mean that the writing of season 5 need to be at least half a year. Lot’s of puzzling to put everything together. But personally I think D&D could have done it.
And the winds of winter chapters were already out. That means that up to that moment they could at least have written a season 5 and 6 for the character. And the problem would arise what to do with season 7. Like they had now with every storyline.
The biggest downside of Aegon would have been Cersei. We would have missed Lena for the last 2 seasons.
And they had many talks with George, they could have asked about personalities and storylines about every character.
Jared,
Reply, Part 3
Here’s an excerpt (with link to the page) from the 9-23-2009 GRRM.livejournal.com casting announcement:
“As Sandor Clegane, the Hound… yes, it’s Rory McCann, a wonderful Scots actor”
https://grrm.livejournal.com/109392.html
GRRM, on why Rory McCann won the role:
“… Mostly, though, it was his readings. We had other good ones, yes, but none to touch his.”
***
“In the space of a few lines, Rory had me terrified (where he roars, ‘Look at me’….)”
_____
GRRM’s reaction coincides with my recollection. of the showrunners’ description.
Since the line from the ~ 2009 audition was from an early book passage that wasn’t used on the show, I have to wonder if they purposely used it in Rory’s final scene on the show in 2019.
If the books were finished I think the show would have had 10 seasons and Young Griff, LSH and the rest would be part of it.
But without the books expecting that D&D will introduce all these storylines that made ending the books impossible in the first place is extremely naive.
I’m watching the show for the first time with people who never watched it before and they are bored to death with Jon’s storyline. And we are at S3. And even some monologues feel like they are too long. I think superfans often forget that general audience is not like us, that episodes like A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms are not something that will impress them and that this show is not made for us. We are like 5% of the audience. When I told them that I read several thousands pages of the books they thought I’m crazy.
With Young Griff, Victarion, Dorne and the rest, vast majority of people would be just bored and the show would have lost popularity. The purpose of books is to give you deeper and more naunced story. It’s not D&D’s fault that GRRM failed to finish them. If you want deeper version of Harry Potter you go and read the books. If you want an exiting and fast paced “best of” version of the story you go and watch the movies.
And that should have been relationship between GOT and ASOIAF. The show can’t be complex and deep as the books and it shouldn’t be. It’s fast paced “best of” version of the story for general audience. People who don’t care about history, lore and worldbuilding.
But since the books are not finished people expect the show to be something that it just can’t.
kevin1989,
D&D weren’t able to make Bran, the endgame king, interesting because they struggled with just few plot points that they’ve got from GRRM about him and you think they should have introduced Young Griff? You think GRRM would be able to provide them with more informations about him than he gave them about Bran? Their version of Young Griff would be as nuanced and their version of Euron. They just don’t have enough material for adaptation.
It’s not their job to solve GRRM’s knots and his mess. I don’t know where this idea that GRRM had so much material about Young Griff in 2014 is coming from. That was 5 and a half years ago. If he really knew that much about his role in TWOW back then the books would have been finished by now.
Wolfish,
So… in the books there’s a scene in which the Hound’s love for Arya is shown in subtle ways “when they’re having a terrible argument and being verbally abusive to each other.”
Just like their dynamic on the show! I can’t wait!
🐓🐓❤️🗡👸🏻
mau,
Agree, and it’s a bit of a double edge sword. If the books were first finished and then the show was made, I think many storylines were better. It’s difficult to work with unfinish books. Especially when you have that many characters. With a simple book like for instance Leftovers, it was easy to make something interesting after it. With just couple of characters.
As for the superfans vs casual fans. You don’t make a show to get as wide an audience as possible, if you want to please everyone, you won’t please anyone in the end. (or at least not that much). Make a show for a certain kind of viewer. Make sure that fanbase like your story and everyone else is a bonus. You make a fantasy show for a fantasy show not for people who like drama. The same thing is with music, when you make rock-music you don’t focus on the people who love pop-music, you focus on your fanbase. Same with tv-shows and books. So with your friends it’s more that GoT is not the kind of show for them, and D&D should not focus on those kind of fans (as you state they watch the show for the first time after everything is aired), but focus on the fans that love your series since season 1.
Yes those would maybe too boring for the vast majority of people. But quality above “getting the most viewers”, making sure that your story is perfect and the ones that love it, love it, the others don’t, but when you start focus on the ones that doesn’t like the way you tell a story and change because of them, the ones that liked your story are going to hate and dislike it.
As for Harry Potter. Harry Potter at least tried to be as close to the story of the books as possible, the last 2 movies they didn’t speed up the story, but in fact split it in 2 movies. The pacing was slower than the movies before. And they didn’t change the storyline, if they did Rowling wouldn’t have given the ok for the script. (she sold the books per book not the saga, and she want to give the script approval, the writer of HP didn’t have the freedom that D&D got. If you compare these 2 GRRM could have forced D&D to have Feast and Dance in 3 seasons.
kevin1989,
My friends do like GoT. They are watching 3 episodes every day. Yesterday they watched 5 episodes in one go. They just don’t like every storyline.
Since GoT became the biggest show in history I think D&D knew much better than you and me what they were doing. I don’t expect that level of success from fantasy shows currently in development, even if they are adapting books that are more successful than ASOIAF was before GoT.
They did their job. They built the biggest brand HBO ever had.
mau,
I think that’s a big difference. Griff you could make a easy idea storyline because it was all about characters, not deep lore about the WW or past etc. Meaning it’s just storytelling like every series out there. Drama.
Bran has problems because of the fantasy element. And not just fantasy, GRRM rules about fantasy. His whole premise about his powers needs to be explained. And how that come into play. Also a big problem is that Bran’s storyline is being build up for 4 seasons already, and then after season 6 it needs to come into fruition. Our expectations were very high. With Griff there are already more than 10 ideas on the internet how his character storyline could be that sounds very interesting. D&D are not dumber than those guys, they could have made a smart idea how to do that character. They let us care for many and many characters, even some that I don’t care in the books for. Shae, Osha, Oberyn’s introduction was brilliant, I like the show version better than the book version.
i think GRRM not giving enough information is i think (And speculation so take it with a grain of salt) that he was not happy that they didn’t include LSH, Griff, Arianne etc. I think he was a bit disappointed and only gave them a shorter version. But the question is what if D&D did include those characters, I have a feeling if they did an amazing introduction in season 5 (which I think they could), GRRM would probably spill the beans per season.
I think that Aegon’s storyline and Arianne storyline is already finished for winds. GRRM already told that he loves to write for Arianne, and found her easy to write. Arianne will probably take the role of Jon C in winds (after he goes towards the sorrows). I think his problem with winds has more to do with 2 things: 1. Daenerys. Her story doesn’t move that fast as it should have been. How will she get in Westeros at the end of Winds? (while in that same time Dany needs 10 chapters Arianne/Griff maybe needs 4 max) Bran is also a character he has difficulty to write. And he have a lot to learn before he can leave south again. And I think he have a problem with Jon/Stannis/Ramsay getting the wall down part.
Ten Bears,
Here is the dialogue that was cut. It would have occurred just after Arya stuffs the rag in MFT’s mouth.
ARYA: “Do you know where my sister is?”
More murmurs. She pokes a hole in his back. Between the screams and the hyperventilating, he’s close to passing out.
ARYA: Sansa Stark. My sister. I haven’t seen her for a long time. Do you know where she is?
She pulls the rag from Meryn’s mouth. He gasps for air.
ARYA: “My sister.”
TRANT: “Don’t know. Nobody… gone. Left King’s Landing. Don’t know.”
Ha!
“But there was no foreshadowing — no setup!”
mau,
Agree with this. I have no problems with D&D. I only think that because they changed things to much in season 5 they worked them self into corners. And I agree that it was difficult to make season 5 if they would have put the books on screen with every storyline. Not perse to put them in, but because many characters/storylines need to have their introduction. Which is more difficult than working further on a storyline that is already busy. The first scene per new character is one of the most important. If that scene fails people won’t like it. If it does right people will follow it.
No he didn’t. He just stopped arguing with Ned about it, but he didn’t let it go. Perhaps you could argue that the pregnancy deepened his resolve to have her assassinated. However, on his deathbed, Robert calls off the assassination and tells Ned to “let her live.”
Robert would very likely have ordered Varys to hire the Faceless Men just as you say Varys ordered the poisoning. Even if Robert had someone else do it, Varys’ little birds would have gotten wind of it allowing him to come up with a way to hopefully foil the plan. He is the spymaster after all. Ultimately, is it risky? Was there a chance their plan would fail? Of course! That’s what makes it dramatic, and why Varys is good at what he does. He had to take calculated risks in order for his plan to succeed. That’s what it means to play both sides. And I think Varys’ life would have been far more at risk if Robert found out about Dany’s pregnancy before Varys told him about it.
Maybe not for you, but it was for Varys. For him, perhaps the end justified the means, and the Dothraki were one of the few options left to them that could stand against the armies of Westeros. Although he has noble goals and his allegiance to the people is admirable, he’s not (and has never been) an all-around good guy. He’s far and away worse in the books. I don’t find show Varys’ actions inconsistent with his character.
kevin1989,
Again, we already saw with Euron, Doran and the rest, that it is really hard for Benioff and Weiss to create material for characters that don’t have enough material from the books. Where this confidence that Young Griff would be much different is coming from?
Benioff and Weiss wrote season 5 in the first half of 2014. If there was enough informations about Young Griff back then, 5 and a half years later, TWOW would have been finished. And it’s not. So I don’t see why should we think otherwise.
Yes, I agree. And it’s becoming obvious that although Jenny said there wouldn’t be a quiz, in my obsessive brain there really is going to be a quiz. I just re-read the Arya chapter you referenced. I had already forgotten so much. There are so many great lines in that chapter. I’ll write a few for Ten Bears to enjoy! The fact is that I re-watched the show at least 10 times. I’ve only watched the final season a couple times though. I really wanted to remember the details of what happened. It’s really not possible for me to re-read the books that much, but I’m guessing that whenever I can’t totatlly remember, I will go back and read that chapter again like I just did. I can definitely see myself doing a total re-read of all the Arya chapters. And perhaps do the same thing with Jon and a some of the others. But for now, I’m OK with just going back one at a time when I can’t really remember all the details.
Here are a couple lines that are great… I’ll put them in spoilers but it really doesn’t give much plot away…
Sandor: “That’s all you need to know. You’re not worth spit to me now, and I don’t want to hear your whining. I should have let you run into that bloody castle”
Arya: “You should have,” she agreed, thinking of her mother.
Sandor: “You’d be dead if I had. You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.”
Arya: “Did you hit her with an axe too!”
Sandor: “I hit you with the flat of the axe, you stupid little b*tch. If I’d hit you with the blade there’d still be chunks of your head floating down the Green Fork. Now shut your bloody mouth. if I had any sense I’d give you to the silent sisters. They cut the tongues out of girls who talk too much.”
Arya in an earlier part of the chapter considers escaping since the Hound had eased up on her security….she was thinking of where she might go and her friends along the way who she sees as abandoning her….
thinking… “they were never my pack, not even Hot Pie and Gendry. I was stupid to think so, just a stupid little girl, and no wolf at all”
In a scene similar but not the same as the show’s farmer/daughter, Arya is posing as Sandor’s daughter and she thinks… (and this line sums up alot of Arya’s inner journey)
I’m not his daughter, Arya might have shouted if she hadn’t felt so tired. She was no one’s daughter now. She was no one. Not Arya, not Weasel, not Nan not Arry not Squab, not even Lumpyhead. She was only some girl who ran with a dog by day, and dreamed of wolves by night…
So great!! Thanks for bringing up this scene. I think this is the way it will be for me. I will need to go back and re-read certain scenes so I can answer my own internal quiz. There’s so much great stuff in every chapter it’s really hard to retain for me, but I did read slow enough where I remember most of the big things.. But I won’t be re-reading all 5000+ pages any time soon…too daunting to think about…. A chapter here and a chapter there works for me. And I very well may re-watch the entire show again soon though!!!
Gwens moment in S08E02 was really an incredible cap to what had been 65+ hours of some of the greatest film making ever done. I’ve spoken many times about how I feel about the remainder of the season, but… what a special show this is. Truly, extraordinary, regardless of how they handled the end.
Tron79,
I don’t know if or when I’ll do a re-read of all the books, but there are definitely chapters that, like you, I want to re-read. 🙂
Dunk & Egg is next (I’ve never read it!), after I finish Scotland: A History from Earliest Times.
Enharmony1625,
That’s what I meant with, that Robert let it go, for the moment. He was calm. And you’re right probably if Robert found out another way.
Well having Westeros being overwhelmed by rapist murdereous, making slave army is not really good for the realm. At least I won’t find that good for the realm. And having Viserys as the King that lead that army to Westeros. A person who even admitted in the show he has no problem with slavery (to Jorah so Jorah would have told Illyrio that by letter, Viserys is not against slavery). Very good for the realm indeed, much better than Robert of course, or Renly. Personally I would choose Cersei above that option.
And I agree with you that show version of Varys is more a good guy. Book version I would call even more evil than LF, with his plan to put a puppet on the throne he could control to establish a communist-like regime where Varys controls everything. He even admit in the books that he kills his birds when they grew to old (around 12 years if I remember correctly). Varys of the books is not good for the realm, he is dangerous. But we were talking about season 1, and the show version of Varys story where Varys became the “Fighter for the realm”. Which getting the Dothraki towards Westeros is not fighting for the realm, instead the opposite.
As for the books
The only reason why Euron, Dorne didn’t result to nothing was because they were rushing through the books because they didn’t want to slow down the main characters storylines, season 5 needed to end in big things for every single storyline needed to have a big bang, big plottwist in it instead of certain character like they used to in first 4, which left little time to explore the new storylines justly. It was just put in lightly to get it done. Season 1 till 4 show the viewers that they can make not that interesting characters very interesting when they want to, Shae, Osha, Bronn, Thormund and many more that are just small characters in the books without real personality, given a personality that was better than the books (at least I liked those better in the show). Robb they also gave more of a personality than in the books.
If they wanted they could have made those characters very interesting, they are amazing writers in my honest opinion, which means that they are great with writing characters. And if they couldn’t they aren’t that great as many make them out to be (which I disagree with because I found them one of the best). Great writing is not about putting a great plotline on screen, it’s about giving characters live and personality, which you state D&D failed with Euron and Doran. So was that that they didn’t want to make them interesting or was that because they lack the capacity to write great characters?
With Doran they had a great plan for season 6 if we want to believe the actor, but it was cut. I wish we could have seen that second season of Doran. I think it would have been amazing.
But I agree with the fact that GRRM should have finish the books before the show. I’m even of opinion that a writer of a book shouldn’t sell their books before the last book is out, and sell the books per book (that because it make certain that a writer of the books keeps their saying in important things like what needs to be in a season etc)
Wolfish,
Sounds like a long history! Should be interesting. Coming from the US, we only have a couple hundred years so not quite as long.
kevin1989,
In television you just don’t introduce major characters in fifth season. So by the nature of the medium Euron and Doran and the rest needed to be reduced. And the only way to actually make Young Griff work was to expand the show to 10 seasons and that was never going to happen.
Young Griff is not even a character in the books. You can’t compare him to Tormund, Robb and Bronn. They had a lot of material that served as fondation for what they later did with those characters. With Young Griff that’s not the case.
And what value was even lost? Tell me one great line that Young Griff had? One great scene? Replacing him with Cersei was much smarter. I mean they underused even Cersei in the last season. I don’t know why you expect that Griff wouldn’t be an epic failure.
To be honest this whole conversation is ridiculous. You have a character introduced in the books in 2011.
8 and a half years later GRRM is still not able to finish the sequel where that character will actually do something. And yet the fandom thinks it’s reasonable to expect that in the fifth season of the show D&D will introduce all these characters, write storylines for already huge cast of characters that they have without the books and somehow make all that work with 7 or 8 seasons.
And still these people are not capable to take into account that maybe, just maybe, great GRRM with his gardner writing style don’t really know what will happen with all these characters and there isn’t some masterplan where everything will fit in the end, because he writes without any outline.
mau,
You already explained very clearly why fAegon is a very bad idea both in the books and in the show. It’s a cheap soap-opera twist that complicates the story even further, and if he replaces Cersei (a character with ties to the rest of the main characters that has been around since the begining) it’s going to be a huge disappointment.
The story of ASOIAF/GOT is about the Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens. It starts with the parents, and they leave the stage for the children, who are the real long-term main characters: Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime and Dany.
No character introduced several books/seasons after the story has began can suddenly become more important than main characters established from the beginning.
oierem,
Mostly agree, although if you watch/read Attack on Titan there’s a certain character introduced fairly late in the game who has since become pretty dang important
Tron79,
I’m in the US too (American parents, born & raised in Brazil, dual citizenship). 🙂
Yes, it’s long—it’s a single-volume history—and some parts have been challenging to get through, because it’s so condensed that I’ve become lost among dozens of personages in a single chapter. But much of it is absolutely fascinating, so I highly recommend it. And it certainly helps me understand the real-life inspiration for our favorite fantasy world much better!
But it’s been fun to read nonetheless. Because we’re all NERRRDDDSSS.
Totally agree; all of these off topics convos have been a blast, don’t usually have much to add, but love reading what everyone else has to say
Wolfish,
<3
I have to jump in about show Dorne. The main thing I enjoyed about show Dorne was Rosabell Laurenti Sellers as Tyene with Bronn. I wouldn’t say it had anything to do with story though! I did think that Oberyn Martell was an excellent character in the show. The rest of the sand snakes with their whips were a bit silly looking in the show. The way they assassinated Doran really wasn’t believable. He would have been better guarded and my guess is that the sand snakes and Ellaria would have had to leave their weapons at the door before entering the water gardens. I liked the way the book handled things much better with…
It gave show Jaime something to do, but I think TPTB figured out that Dorne just wasn’t working and they needed to stay out of Dorne. Cersei’s revenge was quite disturbing and effective. In the 5th book we spend a good amount of time following Quentyn Martell’s quest to wed and bed Dany. That really wasn’t necessary in the show, however I loved the way his arc ended in the books as I’ve said in other posts. I may have decided to focus my Dorne plot on Arianne Martell instead of focusing on the sand snakes and Ellaria. I do think for the show they had to eliminate or combine some characters to make it practical for TV. With Arianne you would have had the TV visual seductive appeal that I felt with Tyene along with a more central POV character that we could follow longer.
You had to have Oberyn so they could have the Mountain and the Viper fight. That happens in the books too. So I don’t think they could have left out Dorne altogether.
But personally I would have chosen to follow Arianne and her father Doran instead of Ellaria and her daughters (if you had to choose). Then Doran could have still be in the mix as well. I also would have done more in the show to make the Dornish people more about sand and venom. You could feel in the books how much the Dornish were desert people and how snake venom and poison were part of their culture. Even though Ellaria and the sand snakes used poison, I didn’t really get that was all part of the “snake” and desert culture. I just thought it was a woman’s weapon as Ned described it. After reading the books, I understood how it was part of the Dornish culture and why Oberyn was using a poison tipped spear. I can be a bit slow sometimes, but I felt much more immersed in the Dornish world in the books, so it was easier to understand how the desert for the Dornish was like the Sea for the Ironborn.
oierem,
I mostly agree with all of this, except to say that it’s possible that in the books, Jaime and Cersei will not be endgame characters. It’s believed by quite a few ASOIAF fans that both of them will die in TWoW, so they are not in the same tier of main characters as the others who are clearly endgame. Jaime, for instance, did not get a PoV chapter until book 3, and Cersei until book 4.
Of course, this could be wrong, but it’s likely that Jaime and Cersei stuck around on the show until the end based on the strengths of Lena and Nikolai, and that they took on some character plot lines that will be given to other characters in the books (as the show did quite a lot of). I guess we’ll see when TWoW comes out..
• Did something else replace this dialogue?
I’ll have to watch the scene again, because I thought it wasn’t until near the end of her interrogation of MFT, punctuated by punctures (🙂), that she asked if he knew who she was:
“Do you know who I am? 🔪
“ (Whimper)”
“I can’t hear you.” 🔪
“(Groan; whimper)”
“Do you know who I am? I’m Arya Stark.
Do you know who you are?”
[*slices MFT’s throat*]💉
“You’re no one. Your nothing.”
• As I remember it, “just after Arya stuffs the rag in MFT’s mouth” she started talking about MFT being the first one on her list for killing Syrio Forel, and that the Many-Faced God stole some other names from her “but I’m glad he left me you.”
• I wonder why they deleted that dialogue about Sansa? It would’ve taken 5-10 seconds of screen time. It would be expected that she would want to find out her sister’s whereabouts from someone who’d know.
It was nice she didn’t forget about Syrio Forel; it would’ve been nice if she brought up her sister too.
Oh well. Maybe someday they’ll explain why they changed that scene. It could be that it worked better with MFT being unable to talk. After all, if he answered her questions about Sansa with “Don’t know. Nobody… gone. Left King’s Landing. Don’t know.”, she might’ve filleted him some more or waterboarded him until she got some straight answers.
Unless… The butterfly effect from LF’s Sansa-Bolton marriage plan somehow made that Arya-MFT dialogue untenable: When LF was summoned to KL by Cersei, and he told her (that ridiculous story) that he’d learned Sansa had married Ramsay B and was in WF – while omitting his own part in it – had MFT left for Braavos yet? If not, he’d probably be privy to Sansa’s wherebouts.
Tron79,
An excellent comment.
As a book reader (although a late one—I gobbled them up between S1 and S2), I would add that for me, the biggest disappointments with how Dorne was handled—besides being whittled down to virtually nothing—were 1) the one-note characterizations of the Sand Snakes (I was terribly disappointed in how Keisha Castle-Hughes was used, given her wondrous performance at 13 in Whale Rider), and 2) the butchering of the Myrcella storyline. It felt completely antithetical to what Dorne *is.* I understand that books and TV are different media and the latter must always condense the former, but the essence of the source material should remain the same. Dorne is far too messy in the books, but as D&D themselves wrote, “We don’t kill little girls in Dorne.” When they did that, it simply felt cheap and insulting to the Dornish.
/end rant
Wolfish,
Cross-rant:
What I didn’t understand was as long as the show was inventing a Jaime-goes-to-Dorne detour, then why wouldn’t the warmongering Sand Snakes and Ellaria just kill Jaime? Simple and justified: he was commiting espionage, got caught, and was executed. Cersei would still be incensed. They wouldn’t have to kill an innocent girl, the fiancée of their Prince.
And maybe, just maybe the Sand Snakes would’ve been spared the dubious motivation of avenging the death of Oberyn Martell by… killing Oberyn Martell’s brother and nephew.
The showrunners did pull the plug on their Dorne detour. (It pissed off Alexander Siddig.) Can’t fault them for euthanizing a manufactured story line if they felt it wasn’t paying off.
Tron79,
”The main thing I enjoyed about show Dorne was Rosabell Laurenti Sellers as Tyene with Bronn. I wouldn’t say it had anything to do with story though!”
I did too! I enjoyed their flirting. I was hoping Bronn would rescue Tyene from Cersei’s dungeon, give her the antidote to the poison, and then run off with his bad girl.
mau,
I have a honest question for you. We know that martin does a lot of editing in his writing before it’s finished. He removes chapters, writes characters in different situations, atc.
Do you really believe that martin would introduce an important character after 4 books, if he had no idea where he was going? faegon enters the story after we have left almost half of the story behind. Do you believe martin, after a lot of editing and rethinking on each book, decided to invest on this character, Golden company, JC, their upcoming war with tyrells, arianne’s journey,etc.. then he said to himself” Oops, these characters are going nowhere, why did I include them in the first place?”?
Ten Bears,
Agreed. I didn’t understand any of it.
And it was a terrible waste of Alexander Siddig, whose casting made me ecstatic. I loved him in both Deep Space Nine and Syriana.
mass,
To be honest I do believe that he doesn’t know how to continue, otherwise the last 2 books would have been there already.
And I do think he does side jobs to get away from writing the books. I am a procrastinator too when I’m in a difficult situation. Doing other things helps to keep my mind off from doing the main task, the only problem is you still have to return to your main task because people keep on asking you about it.
It was believed by many (including me) that Cersei (and possibly Jaime) would die by the end of season 7, and therefore, wouldn’t be endgame characters. This comes from the assumption that the Iron Throne/Dany’s Invasion storylines would be dealt with before focusing on the endgame which is about the Others/White Walkers.
And we were wrong. At least in the show.
As it turns out, the endgame wasn’t about the White Walkers at all, but about the War for the Iron Throne. This conflict clearly involves the three main families (Stark, Lannister, Targaryen), and that’s why it’s a better endgame than a “living vs. dead” battle in which none of the previous character conflicts matter anymore.
So, Cersei and Jaime were indeed endgame characters.
I believe it’s equally possible that in the books they remain alive until the very end. I know they didn’t have POV chapters from the beginning, but still, it’s possible. And it would be more rewarding than replacing them with a character who doesn’t have any POV chapters at all!!
kevin1989,
Let’s give Martin some credits. I don’t for a moment believe that the guy who intended to make Bran his ultimate king, who planned for Jon’s murder to occure at the end of book 5 and accordingly named his wolf Ghost in the first book, has any problems to resolve his own story. I think that by now WoW is over or nearly so. But if it’s say, 1000 pages (it will probably be even more considering that the characters come together), I feel for the guy for the editing he has to do. But I gather that his publisher will give priority to it once it’s over and we’ll see it very soon.
Fingers crossed!
(I’m soooo looking forward for my Ghost chapter)
Chilli,
Efi,
Well, there multiple factors affecting martin negatively in his writing process and I do believe that according to his gardener style writing, he has always have difficulty to precede his story, since he has chosen the hard way to write, but as Efi mentioned, martin knew faith of his character from the beginning, at least main characters like bran, jon, daenerys , etc.. But it’s hard to believe that martin wouldn’t know for example what faegon is doing in the story, or why Jon has to die, or why Bran should be the ultimate king. as I said, there are many factors stoping him from writing, but not knowing the role of characters in his story is not one of them. and we are not talking about a amateur writer. we are talking about GRRM.
by the way, after such experience with show which ended earlier and kind of spoiled major plots of the book, and seeing passion of people to decipher the story with their theories etc.. if I was in his place, personally, I would lose my passion to finish it. so, I can’t blame him if he does.
mass,
Ohhhhh! Don’t say that! And what, we’ll be doing fan fiction forever? “Open ending” acquiring an entirely new meaning?
“No ending for the books, folks, finish it yourselves!!!”
Lol.
No, seriously.
Since I’m somewhat in the writing business myself (not writing literature though) I can understand the difficulties with a complicated story.
What he calls “gardening” I call the “octopus effect”.
You’re happily writing what you want and your mind is stuffed with ideas and then you come to point that you realize that something has popped up unexpectedly, and it’s so important that you just can’t ignore it. In order for your own story to be complete, you simply have to include this side story, otherwise it won’t do. These side stories are for me the octopus feet. You start with one of them, and then you get two, and then four, etc. In these cases it’s up to the author to decide where to draw the line. For me, it’s easy (and I’m trained) to do it, and say, you know, there’s also this that derives from this, but it doesn’t belong to the subject I’m handling right now, so stay tuned for updates.
But Martin can’t do that. He has limitations that do not apply to all types of authors. He wants his characters to reach certain turning points and he has to take them there gradually. Had Dany not stayed in Meereen she wouldn’t go “fire and blood” on Westeros; she’d still waver, and if her outburst on KL was sudden it would feel hollow.
There’s also time limitations. For example, he’s describing an immense world (pretty much like Europe, in real distances WF to KL would be close to, say, Berlin-Rome) that need to be covered. While it’s easy to say that Tyrion could have reached Meereen without passing by Pentos, Valyria and Volantis, and suddenly have him pop up at Meereen just in time for the battle, it would feel unearned and fake; what would he have been doing in all that time, in all that space, when Planetos is dominated by pirates and witches? Tyrion’s journey is inspired by medieval pilgrimage journeys that have produced thousands of pages of medieval literature. Of course you can have him begin say, in Belfast, and reach Jerusalem within just a month, but a careful reader would know that from Belfast you need to get to London, then Marseilles, Rome, Athens/Crete or Malta and Cyprus depending on how friendly the Muslim tribes of North Africa are at that time.
And there’s also the fairytale norms that he wants to uphold, on which he’s built the entire story. The most important is perhaps the rule of threes. Everything happens in threes: three heads has the dragon; three dragonriders; three contestants for the throne; three to steal Dany’s dragon, etc.
This is exemplified in her prophecies, that are more or less the spine of ASOIAF. I’ll put it in spoilers for those who haven’t read the books.
She’ll ride three mounts: one to bed, one to dread, one to love
She’ll experience three treasons: one for blood, one for gold, one for love
Each one of her prophecies that are related to her past and future events make up her character and her journey: daughter of death (because she’s the heir of Viserys, Rhaegar and Rhaego), slayer of lies (because she’ll uncover the lies of Stannis, F!Aegon, Jon), and bride of fire (here falls her silver mare, the corpse on the ship, the blue flower on the Wall -these are her romantic interests).
So I don’t think that Martin has not untangled his story; I think it was untangled from the beginning. And I don’t believe that he has not begun ADoS, simply because he has described the way he works himself. His statement that he hasn’t I think rather reflects that he doesn’t want to be bothered with questions; it is easier to reply “I haven’t even begun with it”, than say, yes, I have, and then he’d be bombed with questions, when will it be over, where are the characters now, what happens with Dany, will you stay healthy for finishing it, please?
When this author is immersed in a character, it’s impossible to give him up and write another irrelevant 15 chapters in between, and then return to that character –Martin himself has said that he’s immersed; I don’t see how this could stop with five pages per chapter, or even ten. When he’s in Jon, he writes Jon for say, 10 chapters straight? And when he gets to Daenerys he can write another 10 chapters and perhaps write Barristan at the same time because he’s in the same context.
When he says that he’s a gardener I don’t think it relates to his story per se, but to the context, i.e. ok, Tyrion gets to Volantis, what’s in Volantis? Who is it that Tyrion meets there and why?
And for what’s worth, when you have fantasy you can’t just stop it, or pull the plug, but the fantasy, and all the ways a story could go, is one thing; putting it on paper is another. It’s creative fantasy that resolves the story, not putting it on paper, even though that helps.
So, let’s all give the creative author some credits; after all, it’s not an easy work. Martin has described what a lonely process it is, writing, and personally I can relate to that.
I think we’ll see WoW soon.
mau,
That’s not true, with most shows I watch they even introduced new characters and at least 1 new storyline in the last season. Breaking bad for instance, Sons of anarchy which is in my opinion one of the best shows out there, with 7 seasons, introduced every season at least one new character and storyline. And it had one of the best last 2 seasons of any show I ever watched. Better than GoT final season in my opinion, and much darker (or less fan-service if you would like to know that). Sopranos, lost, fringe, sherlock, the wire, twin peaks, house of cards, westworld, oz, house, Mad Man, shameless, Justified, Vikings and more, many shows that run for years and introduced new storylines and important characters into the story. GoT is not an exception where new character and storylines can only be introduced in the first part of a 3 part story. Even in the third act you can introduced new things, and you need to do that to keep the story interesting.
You start with a bunch of characters in part 1 of a story, they die, move out of the show, they won’t make it till the end and only were needed for the intro. Then you get part 2 the middle part, where old storylines stop (Ned, Cat, Tywin etc), make place for new storylines which will make endgame (Griff, Doran, Euron), and then the endgame that include the new storylines from part 2 with the storylines that are in the whole show (like Dany, Jon, Arya)
His book stuff would have been the first season and maybe 2 episodes in the 6th. Meaning that it serve as an introduction. First seasons of new character are never meant for making big moments. That serve for the second many times, for instance renly was not that interesting in the first book, his story was the second, Same with Tywin. His introduction are in the first book but was only flashback based and named. The second we saw him in 2 chapters and that was not really that much, only in the third book his character blossomed. Same with Bronn which hadn’t that many scenes in the first book. Only later he becomes interesting. Or Shae which only got interesting in the third book.
I agree with that they didn’t have that much to go on with what to do with the character on Dance based itself. But you stated that GRRM told them the story of the books. Meaning he would also have told what to do with Aegon if he was in season 5. Season 5 only needed the Renly treatment of season 1, introduce him, give him a couple of scenes and leave the rest for the next season. Or what they did with Shae in season 1, or Margery in season 2 which only served as introduction to the character, but we only got to know the real character in season 3. That would also have made with Griff, only introduce him, tell us who he is (Aegon Targ the king of the seven kingdoms), the plan of him (getting the throne and wanting to Marry Daenerys when she comes to Westeros), Jon is his father figure, He travels with a couple of companions which we only get to know who they are in the next season, he is under the care of Varys and Illyrio and we know he has a connection to Tyrion. Nothing else needed to be known for a season 5 than what was in the books, the rest of his personality etc who he is should have been left in season 6 or 7 when you get to know the character and when he gets bounding with other characters in the story. If we get in season 5 the feeling he had a bond with Jon, and Jon cared for him as a father, and that Jon has a burden on his shoulders (Which we don’t need to know until season later, you don’t reveal all the cards at the same time, GOT never did), and that he wants to do good for the people of Westeros, and having a feeling that the Lannisters get their due in the next season. Nothing more needed for season 5 to be done with the character, the bare minimum. Many fans already put on internet ideas about how to do that, even before season 5 aired there were lot’s of ideas how to introduce that character, and if fans could do it, D&D as professional writers would also have done it, especially with the help of GRRM.
As for Cersei, the reason why her story was not that great in season 7 and 8 was because her story ended in season 6, season 7 and 8 was only an extension to her storyline, she should have died not long after that. She stayed in the show while her story was done and she should have been gone, she only served as opponent for Daenerys. I love Cersei in season 1 till 6 she was my favorite to watch there, with 7 and 8 not so much. In my country we call sometimes name that “over de datum”, “expired”.
What would have made Young Griff a better idea, simple, because we still are getting to know the character, his storyline is new and blossoming instead of already done like Cersei’s. It would give the KL story a new direction to explore which would feel new instead of overdone, getting to know a character is always more interesting. And unlike Cersei, Griff wouldn’t be underused because his story is still busy instead of done.
And why I would expect that Griff wouldn’t be an epic failure, simple answer, because I watch a lot of tv shows and movies, I think I watch over 150+ series if not above the 200. I know what works and what not. Getting new flesh is one thing that needs to be done to keep an story interesting. Having Daenerys battle a person who is a just ruler is more interesting when we want our hero since book 1/series 1, to fail instead of to succeed, which up the drama, conflict of the heart for the fans. 3. Dance of Dragon’s part 2. We would have seen dragons fighting each other instead of just destroying things and putting the evil Cersei out of power. 4. Because I already have an idea in my head how to the whole storyline could work pretty well on screen, and I’m not a professional, so a professional could put something amazing on screen.
5. Look at Harry Potter, Luna was introduced in movie 5 of the 8 (hey season 5 of the 8 seasons, sounds comparable doesn’t it). Bellatrix was introduced in the fifth, Narcissa was introduced in the sixth. Tonks and others of the order was introduced in the 5th which serve as an important part for the endgame, there were even introductions in the 7th movie for the endgame.
6. I talked with friends when the show was done about characters that wasn’t in the show but in the books, most were like: Why didn’t they include it, I would have liked new interesting characters and storylines since season 5.
And what value was even lost? Tell me one great line that Young Griff had? One great scene? Replacing him with Cersei was much smarter. I mean they underused even Cersei in the last season. I don’t know why you expect that Griff wouldn’t be an epic failure.
mau,
1. See above.
2. As stated many times, GRRM didn’t finish winds because of projects not because of the story, even when you keep hammering on it for 100 times doesn’t make it true.
3. GRRM could have told the story to D&D
4. The whole, making it work in 7 a 8 seasons is completely bullshit, you don’t write a show with having wanting to stop at a certain season and if you won’t get there in time, you rush to it and cram multiple seasons into 1. You write a story naturally, if it needs 7 seasons make it 7, 8 make it 8 9 make it 9. etc. With GoT it would have been between 8/10 seasons. (And even when wanting Griff and dorne etc normally in I would have expect it too end even in 8 seasons of 10. Look at HP, the decisions of splitting the last book was because of that, even when their first plan was 7 movies. And they even admitted that they were on the fench of splitting the 5th and 6th book into 2 movies if they could put everything in that they wanted.
And still these people are not capable to take into account that maybe, just maybe, great GRRM with his gardner writing style don’t really know what will happen with all these characters and there isn’t some masterplan where everything will fit in the end, because he writes without any outline.: This argument is a counterargument to another argument that you frequently use: D&D use the template of GRRM and is going to the same ending as GRRM.
So what is it: GRRM knows his story and D&D use it, or GRRM doesn’t know it like you state this time, but that means the ending of the series can’t be where GRRM is heading, because GRRM doesn’t know it right? So which statement is the right one and which is not?
There’s a difference between knowing exactly what you want to write, and write that down the way George does it. Like you are in the mind of a certain character, that’s where he is stuck, zoning into Westeros.
Like for instance as comparison. Bran seeing Cersei and Jaime having sex in book 1. He know that they were having sex and Bran saw it which result into him being fling out of the window. But what GRRM can’t do know is moving that into the mind of Bran, which resulted in the written version, not Cersei and Jaime were having sex, but Jaime is hugging Cersei from behind (or something like that he wrote). Writing the chapters into the mind of a certain character. And also not just write the storyline but also making it feel like you’re there, making the place you are real.
But you seems to ignore GRRM statement on purpose the whole time to make a point, so why do you ignore GRRM statement that he shared 2 weeks ago, but you swallow all the statements that D&D made about their writing.
I agree a character important to the end-game can be introduced mid-story. While I understand the frustrations people can have with Young Griff, I think his character can bring out some interesting scenarios to explore.
oierem,
What you state is so wrong. griff would never be more important than: Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Daenerys, Tyrion, Samwell, Davos.
What he does is replace Cersei yes. Like 90% of the series/ Movie sagas out there does. Especially the ones that are rated high do change character/storylines in the mid of the series run.
Look at many shows and look at which are the main characters in the first season, and which are in the last. Most of the time with high rated shows, only a third remain from the first season and the rest is replaced by new characters, many of which are introduced the season before the last one. The argument that it doesn’t work speaks against all the shows out there, GoT is one of the few big shows out there that doesn’t introduced a huge main-storyline in his second and third act. And that’s what the problem was with the show. Dorne and the II could have been cut out of the show and it would still be going to the same ending, they were not important for the endgame. Their story was not integrated into the main storyline, it was just a small detour without importance, in the books Dorne and II are integrated into the main story and become endgame material for the books.
A big example is Harry Potter. Dumbledore died in the 6th book/movie. His story was over. But was taken over by new characters introduced in the 7th, which build on what Dumbledore started.
Or another, lotr: First book we have boromir as a main character, he died at the end of act 1. book 2 did not do what GoT did, not introducing a new main character/storyline in act 2, they in fact did introduced them. Rohan was introduced, new characters with it. Gondor was introduced through Faramir, halfway through act 2. Smeagol became a main character, but his storyline began in act 2 of the story.
Act 3: We have the characters of Rohan here, introduced in act 2
We have Gondor here through the eyes of Faramir and Denathor: Introduced in act 2.
We have the frodo and Sam: Act 1
We have Smeagol: act 2
We have Gandalf, pippin, Aragorn, Gimli from act 1
Saruman was killed by a character introduced in act 2.
Half of the characters that had a part in the endgame of LotR was introduced in the second act of the movie. Faramir was introduced halfway through the trilogy, but I still cared for him and his story was important for the whole story. And I wasn’t that he took place and importance from the characters that were there since the first movie. (even when half of the fellowship was introduced into the second half of the first movie when comparing to the books that was book 2 of 6 in the eyes of Tolkien).
Having a character introduced for the endgame in act 2 or halfway through the story itself is not bad writing, every story does that. Especially great stories do that. You have the story of act 1, you have the change in act 2, and the conclusion in act 3 that contains stuff from act 1, and stuff from act 2 (that replaced other stuff from act 1)
Efi,
I really agree with your assessment of the octopus/gardener effect and that an author can get lost in this. I also agree that GRRM knows where he wants to take characters, wants to get them there gradually, and that the world he is describing is so vast and deep.
But I think this is where GRRM gets lost. He’s got so, so much up in the air, he’s always adding new POVs, he’s introducing new threads, new plots, new stories, and I think he’s struggling on how to start setting us the endgame. He’s good at setting things up but it’s hard to start bringing things home. In my experience, the middle seems to be the hardest to write because of all the connections that need to be made — and need to make sense.
Three is an interesting number — it pops up all over the place, especially with dream interpretation and ancient stories (even in visual aesthetics — rule of the thirds for photography, the Golden Mean). In regards to writing, I don’t think the number three needs to apply to every plot point necessarily (like three grey girls on dying horses coming to the Wall, three contestants for the throne, three dragons stolen) but three is a popular number for prophecies, especially when dealing with the number of line items/visions (vis a vis Dany’s “three fires to light”, “three mounts to ride”, “three treasons”). Three represents many things — unity, trinity, strength (the triangle is the strongest structure in the world), divinity, it has significance to real-world religions, etc.
We know Rhaegar believed there must be “three” when it comes to heads of the dragon in regards to the fulfillment of the Azor Ahai prophecy, referencing the conquering trio of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya (so Rhaegar believed he needed to have three kids). Some of the prophecies Dany receives deal with threes (three fires, three mounts, three treasons). But I think this is where the power of three may end.
My interpretation is a bit different…
The prophecy:
I believe “slayer of lies” and “blue eyed king” refers to Stannis and the prophecy of Azor Ahai. Dany probably has a part to play in this prophecy, disproving the authenticity of Stannis — who Melisandre believes is the coming of the dawn.
The “cloth dragon” amidst a “cheering crowd” followed by a smoking tower, beast taking wing and the shadow of fire, as well as “mother of dragons” may refer to Young Griff. I don’t think Young Griff needs to be false but Dany may perceive him as false and as a threat, particularly if some speculations are right that he’ll rally Westerosi support, particularly Dorne’s, if they believe Young Griff is Elia’s son.
“A blue flower”, “wall of ice”, “mother of dragons”, “bride of fire” may refer to Jon. And Dany arriving at the Wall.
I had wondered if the corpse refers to Jon. He has a sad smile, like Jon sometimes has, and Jon is currently dead (I think?). As Jon was gutted, Dany heard that wolf’s howl and felt sad. But it deals with a ship… Jon’s not on ships….
So a Greyjoy Dany will encounter? Euron? That Dany must defeat? One of the speculations from Linda Antonsson had that Euron does kill one of her dragons. Could the smiling grey corpse and mother of dragons refer to this?
Thoughts on the spoiler-coded, Kevin? I know we’ve discussed this before if you’re interested 🙂
Tron79,
Agree with this. And if Quentyn would have been added in the show I would have just skipped his whole arc and just made him a side character for a couple of episodes, I think he should have been in if they made the book version of Dorne because Arianne’s motive is tied to it and of course the reason he freed the dragons that resulted into the destruction in Meereen, which I suspect is only there for one thing: Daenerys won’t like Dorne, and when Dorne sided with Aegon she feels Dorne tried to undermine her in Meereen. Another part was seeing the destruction of Astapor.
So now my conclusion:
– Destruction of Astapor. Could be given to another character or even not through a character, just show it that it’s burned and that Daenerys get’s the news. No Quentyn needed.
– Arianne’s motive. Would be enough if Quentyn would just meet Daenerys.
– So if they would have done it, I think Quentyn should just arrive at Meereen, ignore his whole journey, we don’t need to care for him. Having a scene where Daenerys sends him away. A scene where she shows him their dragons. A scene when Daenerys is gone and he decided to ride a dragon for her and he gets roasted by the dragons. And him lying on the bed of Daenerys. (less then 15 minutes total)
– He is not an important POV or part of the story and only is there because of Arianne, which means if they would have gone with Arianne, Qyentyn should not be made that important just a tertiary character.
Just speculation of course.
mass,
And don’t forget the House of the Undying. They are in there, Jon C and Aegon.
Efi,
You are also like me thinking that the ending will be the same, but not the same (the yes no yes no of GRRM) so I will post my idea how I think some characters will end.
Sansa: Will be queen of the seven Kingdoms, later on how I think this will go.
Arya: Still going west. But maybe a more practical motive. We know that in the books there are rumors of something in the water in the west, what if Arya is the one that will investigate this?
Jon: Still going to the wall, as is Jorah (Tell Jorah to take the black, lord commander Mormont before dying). I think in the books the WW treat remains, its defeated for know, but in the future the WW can return and wake up again. Another 8000 years. So the wall needs to stay because of that.
Tyrion will be hand of the king (or something like that) to Bran.
Daenerys: Will be killed because of the Nissa Nissa prohecy, Jon will wield lightbringer/ dawn. Longclaw will be given to Jorah. Later more about the war against Aegon, in the Aegon part.
Jaime: Will die against the others.
Cersei: Will die earlier at the hand of the Volanqar, which I believe is Jaime and Brienne is the younger more beautifuler woman.
Stannis: I think Stannis will become the Night King in the books, in what kind of way that will happen I don’t know. I think his plan to defeat the Bolton’s succeed but he will be hated by the north and cast aside. Mellisandre will choose Jon over Stannis and she burned Shireen. Mel will turn against Stannis. Stannis witness the power of the other’s when he makes a sacrafice at the heart tree. He decided to put faith into a new army that will get him the justice he wants. And the Other’s are not the killing machine of the show in the books, they are a race. My guess is that the Other’s can only pass the wall when they have a leader, some order, (like Ice which is in chemistry very ordered, warmth is chaos). And I think that’s why the Other’s can return later, because when they found a leader once again, they will go south again.
– Aegon: Aegon will survive, and my guess is become the King in the end. I know many are against it but here me out. What I think will happen is when Daenerys lands she will indeed sees Aegon as a enemy, and I think she wants him gone for the throne, the throne is hers by right and he is fake right? And Dance of Dragon v2 is going to happen right? But are we not forgetting someone, didn’t GRRM already said that there will be 3 dragonriders? And the third doesn’t have to be a Targaryen? Right, the third will be Euron, which use magic to control one of the dragons. What I think will happen is that the feud between Aegon and Daenerys is being interrupted by Euron taking control of one of her dragons. My question is only will he ride it? I think yes. Daenerys will fight Euron she on Drogon and Euron on Visarion, but the magic that Euron use make sure Vyserion attacks Drogon but I think Drogon and Daenerys doesn’t attack Vyserion it’s her child right? That leaves Rheagal. Rheagal in that moment will choose Aegon to be his dragon rider, he excepts Aegon. Aegon will save Daenerys live in this moment. In that moment the feud is over between Daenerys and Aegon. Euron will be defeated, Vyserion dead?
– What now? Rheagal chooses Aegon, that means that Daenerys understands one thing (we know her connection the her dragons). 1. He is a Targaryen, or at least have Targ blood. 2. Rheagal is the dragon named after Rheagar, she will except this as that Aegon is really Aegon (doesn’t mean if he is or not he could still be a fake it matters how Dany perceive it). And Aegon saved her life. But the battle resulted into parts of KL to be burned innocents people died. The people see it as Aegon saving the people of Daenerys and Euron.
– And then: Daenerys gives up on the quest for the throne. But she slay the lies, about her own past, and about Varys who she is warned about by Quaithe. The problem of the Other’s come into question. Daenerys decided that that’s her destiny, not the throne, but saving the realm. She goes north, falls in love with Jon, he falls in love with her. And Nissa Nissa will happen.
– Arianne is put aside by Aegon for Sansa. Doran’s plan failed. And Stark+Targaryen are once again together. Sansa is not the queen of Joffrey a horrible person, but she becomes the queen with a just man.
I think this is roughtly where GRRM is going. I don’t think Sansa will go north because I believe her storyline is connected to the Iron Throne. And once she is in power with Aegon she will unmask LF.
Adrianacandle,
Agree, but I think the
kevin1989,
While I do think show endings for the mains are roughly the same (I do think Bran will be king, Jon’s at the Wall, Dany’s dead, Cersei and Jaime die together, Tyrion is hand… somehow…, Arya’s a voyager, and Sansa becomes a political player and ends up at Winterfell, leading in some capacity), Dany ends up burning King’s Landing (perhaps not as intentionally as methodically strafing the streets one by one), and I think Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa will come into play — I think you raised a really interesting point with Euron: I think Euron will have something to do with one of Dany’s dragons. And maybe he will yield magic to control one (that’s a terrifying, terrifying prospect).
I’m still not certain how Young Griff gets a dragon. In your scenario, you totally address my previous concern about how dragons can’t be traded and stolen like objects, they are thinking and feeling creatures, but I don’t know if this is how Young Griff gets one or if he gets one. Though I’d love for your scenario to happen, I do think Dany’s going to become gradually darker. If a second dance of dragons occurs, perhaps it’s more metaphorical rather than literal? I think Dany will totally be crucial to the war against the undead (Aemon had told Sam that Dany was their only hope) and I think Dany and Jon will probably fall in love at some point, but I also think Dany’s desire for the throne is deep and complex — linked to her ideas of home, belief that she’ll find where she belongs when she takes the throne, and connection to her family. Whereas before, I thought she would eventually turn away from the throne but since season 8, I don’t think she’s giving up on that now 🙁
This is an interesting take but what lies do you mean coming from Varys?
Adrianacandle,
Lol, so as usual the point of disagreement is Jon.
Frankly, it’s not an interpretation more than it is a schematic summary. Each of the aphorisms relates to the triplet that has preceeded it.
And of course the blue flower is Jon; it’s very clear.
The corpse; I don’t know. Perhaps Jon Connington, as shown by the “grey lips” (he already has greyscale), but others think it’s one of the Ironborn (Asha’s uncle whose name I can’t remember who’s arriving on a ship). I don’t think that Jon can appear twice in the same triplet.
Mother of Dragons is Dany; it’s what she is. I believe it has reference to the fact that she’ll never be mother of humans, never give birth to living babies. The core of it is I suppose that you can’t be a conqueror and a mother at the same time; one stands for war, the other for peace and growth. In this sense it’s a huge irony that people in Essos call her mhysa.
Bride of fire, she is the one who literally marries fire (it’s possessive genitive here). This explains why fire in the book is often described with clear sexual connotations (i.e. in Dany’s hatching of the dragons, or Melisandre’s fire). The mounts also are clearly sexual. The first is Drogo, the second is Drogon (her first flight is also described in sexual terms by Martin), the third is Jon.
oierem,
The WW were absolutely endgame. There can be multiple parts/conflicts to an endgame, of which they were a major part, threatening the existence of humanity, and took a huge combined force of people to defeat. All of season 8 can be seen as the endgame really, with episodes 1 & 2 being setup for the remaining 4.
Also, I’m certain that there will be more to defeating the WW in the books so it will be drawn out much more, and like the show, defeating them and the fight for the IT will together be part of the endgame.
That being said, it’s definitely possible that Jaime and Cersei are endgame in the books as they were in the show, but I’m not so certain. Martin has said before that Jaime’s story is an examination of a redemption arc, and I don’t really see that needing to be dragged out until the endgame in the books. Not the way his character is set up — he just doesn’t feel like he’s set up as an endgame character in the books (and same with Cersei). Besides, TWoW really needs to cull some characters and plot lines in order to start narrowing the focus down for the end of the story.
Furthermore, I think the show probably took some of the plot lines in the books and gave them to Cersei and stretched Jaime’s story out until the end based on their established and beloved characters (well, at least Jaime being loved.. 🙂 ). And I think that was a perfectly fine decision for the show.
Rory and Gwen.
kevin1989,
Exactly. all of them are foreshadowed from the beginning and were supposed to enter the story.
kevin1989,
Exactly. all of them were foreshadowed from the beginning and were supposed to enter the story.
Efi,
I also am optimistic about ٌWOW and expect it to be released next year.
Adrianacandle,
As for Sansa and Bran: I really believe their roles will be reversed in the books. Bran is north and connected to the WW treat, and if it’s true that the WW-treat remains, it doesn’t make sense for him to become the king of the seven kingdoms, but it does make sense if he will become the King in the north and is close towards the WW-treat. King of Winter. And Sansa is already south, and for her to go north means she doesn’t have her own story anymore, she becomes a secondary character in Jon’s story, which I think GRRM will not go with, her story never had to do with the WW in the books, it wouldn’t make sense if it become involved with that. What she is tied to is LF from the start, and the Iron Throne. She wanted it, LF wants to use her control her while she is married to somebody with a lot of power. If she would become the queen of the seven Kingdoms, LF could control the kingdoms. And maybe my first idea is wrong and Sansa is indeed the younger more beautifuler queen to cast her down. And her working with Aegon to dethrone Cersei and taking her place would be that her story comes full-circle. And I want her to have her own storyline, not being an extention to Jon and Dany’s WW treat storyline.
As for Cersei and Jaime, in the books she will be strangled by the Volanqar. And I just read Jaime VI of SoS. Jaime falls asleep on a weirwood tree and has a dream that contains things of the future. He sees Brienne with the bear. But he also sees darkness and the way it describes is the same way that Tyrion described the wall. He then sees his own life ends, and he talks to many ghosts from his past, Cersei is one of these ghosts. I think this means Cersei will die a while before Jaime dies. Her ghost tells Jaime that he is about to die. There’s also talk about Brienne having a fiery sword. Which I found strange.
I also read some nice theories that R+L=baby A (Targaryen hair)
N+A=baby B (Dark hair)
But that Ned switched the baby’s. He took baby B home, he is called Jon. Jon=Dayne meaning he can wield dawn, which is in fact lightbringer, making Jon Azor Ahai reborn.
Baby A he left with Ashara Dayne, a baby that Varys take a while later. Gives him to Illyrio, this one grow up to become Aegon aka Young Griff. Making YG FAegon and Aegon at the same time, he is not the son of Elia but the son of Lyanna. Varys lied about his story. Why would he lie instead of just saying this is Rheagar+Lyanna’s child. Simple, because he believe it to be the son of Ashara and Ned, so he needs to lie.
I like this theory a lot, and if it comes true I would love it, and if Ned and Ashara would have been married, and Ashara is indeed alive in the books that means that Jon is the only trueborn child of Ned, and all the children with Cat would have been Bastards. But how for now I still will go with R+L=J simply because the show gave me that, and for now it seems the most likely. But for the ones saying that the show telling that make it true for the books. No, the show doesn’t include N+A, so if N+A got a baby in the books that become’s Jon of course it would be skipped. At the same time they don’t have Griff, and L+R got a child, so that means that the show would go for L+R=Jon. Instead of explaining who the Daynes are etc.
Efi,
I think that’s because we have very different ideas on his arc 🙂
I think this too is interpretation as well. Schematics involve the use of symbols and symbols, what they mean (like the ones we’re discussing here), are very much interpreted. I think these are more symbols than aphorisms. Admittedly, I’m having trouble understanding the system you’re using, what do you mean by “Each of the aphorisms relates to the triplet that has preceeded it”?
On that note, even the system we use to interpret them also can differ:
This was the grouping system I had seen: there are two set of italicized names/titles following every two sets of visions. I think these visions are linked to one of the corresponding italics.
For example:
“Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. (Stannis) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. (Young Griff) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. (Dany’s conquest of KL)… mother of dragons, slayer of lies….”
I think this may refer to Stannis’s authenticity re:the prophecy perhaps being disproven by Dany’s authenticity here. She has a part to play, Melisandre was wrong about Stannis.
With Young Griff, Dany may perceive him as false.
She’ll likely use dragons to conquer KL (the smoking tower, a great stone beast taking wing).
Both Stannis and Young Griff want the throne. Dany may view them as usurpers, false. I think she’ll go up against Young Griff.
As for Jon, I’m having trouble figuring out the lie but then I remembered: might it be referring to the false story of Jon’s identity? Dany has a hand in proving it’s real to Jon, maybe a dragonride does convince him? However, not all dragonriders need to be Targaryens. On that note, I’ve never been able to find a source for GRRM saying there needs to be three dragonriders (if you have a link, please send!) but I have seen theories that say it’s not three separate dragons — but the dragon has three heads, indicating unity, a trinity of sorts (like Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya). I think this may be important in the battle against the Others (as it kind of was in the show).
But at the same time, “slayer of lies” doesn’t have an apparent link to the “blue flower” vision with how this passage is laid out. They don’t appear to have a textual connection or share the same group. Following the smiling corpse vision and blue flower vision are the italics, “mother of dragons… bride of fire”.
I’ve seen the JonCon speculations too. Are you referring to Asha’s uncle, Euron?
As for mother of dragons, yes, that is what she is. I’m not so certain it means she’s unable to ever bear a living child again or because of an idea that you can’t be a conquerer and a mother at the same time. Plenty of conquerers have kids! It’s how they pass on their line before they’re conquered again and the line of succession restarts! 🙂
In the sense of Dany thinking it’s like a wedding when she walks into the flames and isn’t burned, I can see that interpretation. But I don’t find anything sexual in the descriptions of fire? I guess it can be interpreted that way since sexual passion and heat are often linked but I didn’t find anything deliberate or overt. I know that in the books, Melisandre births a shadow assassin, probably via sex with Stannis as in the show, but I don’t remember anything overtly sexual with her fire either?
I don’t know, this stuff is tricky as all hell 🙂
kevin1989,
I don’t know who this girl would be. I think she’ll have to be linked to Young Griff though if Young Griff takes King’s Landing from Cersei. It could be Sansa, I think Sansa will definitely become a political player, and I like the idea of her linking up with Young Griff but I truly feel Sansa’s destiny is Winterfell. No, she doesn’t have to be an extension of the Others storyline and I don’t think she will be. But I think she will have a hand in the politics of the North. There are some speculating Rickon may be found and become King in the North, if there is a King in the North. Robb believed Bran and Rickon were dead when he named Jon his heir but we don’t know where that will is. But what’s odd is, as Sansa was declaring independence for the North, why wasn’t everyone, “Oh, hey, I want that too! Independence for the Iron Islands!” (like, what Yara wanted when she met up with Dany)
I do think Bran will become King of the 7K and it may make sense in the books. I’ve seen some cases for it and while I don’t love it (I really kind of hate it), it makes sense in a way. Bran isn’t really Bran Stark anymore, his decisions aren’t hampered by emotion, he can be truly neutral and in that way, fair. And if he’s chosen by a council (hopefully one that is far larger in the show) and they opt for a more elective system, it represents a progressive change. A slow change, but a progressive one.
Alfie and Gwendoline.
All the actors are excellent but it was an easy pick for me nonetheless.
mass,
I do hope that GRRM knows what will happen with Young Griff. But knowing several plot points is not enough for adaptation as we saw with Euron. Benioff and weiss needed far more material to justify his inclusion in the show.
kevin1989,
So Benioff and Weiss underused Cersei in the last season and we saw what they did with Euron when they don’t have book material, but somehow Young Griff as final enemy to Dany would be great? Sure Jan.
They should’ve cut even more from the books. Including Euron and Dorne.
kevin1989,
Young Griff is just bad storytelling. Why waste time on that? If they were not capable to make Cersei interesting in the last season they for sure are not capable to make Young Griff work.
kevin1989,
1. The only thing that is a fact is that books are not finished. Why they are not finished is just our interpretation. Taking other projects didn’t stop GRRM. The fact that he stopped made him take other projects.
2. You are clearly imaging some version of Benioff and Weiss that we never got. We already saw that they are not capable to make great things if they only have plot point. GRRM probably told them that Euron will kill a dragon. How that tuned out in the show? How king Bran turned out? Maybe some other writers could make great story from just few plot points from GRRM. But not them. There is no reason to think that their version of Young Griff would be epic fail because they don’t have enough material to use.
And don’t confuse what I said with criticism that D&D can’t write great original material. They obviously can. But when they get plot points from GRRM about the new characters from the future books they in a lot of ways did feel like a plot points. As we saw with Euron,Doran, Rickon, Edmure and the rest, they are not great with creating new material for these smaller characters. They either kill them off or reduce them. Even some major characters like Bran and Cersei were reduced to extras in the last season.
So this confidence that they would turn Young Griff into same great character is completely unfounded.
Adrianacandle,
I think that in the show these 2 got switched because in the show we didn’t have the background of the WW treat, we had the mothership killing all the WW making it illogical for Bran to become King of Winter because there is no need of a King of Winter. But if Bran needs to be come King it needs to be solved, king of the 7K does sound better for the show, him being king in the north had no basis in the show without the WW being alive in the end.
With Sansa it’s the exact opposite. Where she was moved out of the Vale to the North, she became involved with the people in the north because of combining her storyline with Jeyne Poole. Her politic storyline moved from the Vale (south) to the north. In the show it would not make sense for her to become the queen of the 7/6 kingdoms. While it would make sense if they would make her Queen in the north.
And one of the reasons people think Sansa will go north in the books is because of the slaying the giant in the snow castle vision of the dwarf lady. But we already got that. The doll of Robin (that he called a giant and smashed Sansa’s castle of Winterfell made of snow) she slay (tear to pieces). So that doesn’t give a reason why her storyline would move north.
Well maybe she will become Queen in the north in the books but I highly doubt it. I think the yes no yes no yes no of George means that parts of the ending are how it ends but not how it’s filled in. Jon=Wall. Sansa=queen, Bran=King, Arya=explorer, Tyrion=hand of the king/queen to one king/queen, Dany=killed by Jon.
As for Tyrion becoming hand of the king, if my idea is right that Aegon survives, in the end there is a truce/peace between Dany and Aegon, and Sansa is the one having a relationship with Aegon, it make sense if Dany and Aegon work something out for Tyrion to become his hand. Especially if Jon Connington needs to get away because he is infected by Grey Scale.
Maybe read what I say. Cersei was expired. Her character-arc was done in season 6 final. Meaning 7 and 8 her arc was already done and she is still there, she was hanging there without a story. Her storyline was already death but she wasn’t.
With Griff there was a new storyline that was still busy. Meaning that he was not expired but still being explored by the fans. His storyline is still in full force and not death, we could explore this new character with Arianne for instance while Cersei was fully explored already in season 6 with her loss of her children.
Griff storyline is still fresh and ready to explore.
As for not knowing what to do with Griff: 2 things. 1. Ask GRRM or read online outlines, there are many outlines how these storylines could have worked, if fans could come up with amazing storylines, why couldn’t D&D? 2. This argument about there was no books is the same for the main POVs, with those they also needed to invent the storylines (and if GRRM told them these storylines, he would also have told that of Griff, Dorne and II what to do next).
As for Euron and Dorne, that has nothing to do that there was not enough Storyline in Feast and Dance, there was enough to fill for both storylines season 5 and half of season 6. 1,5 season of storyline for them. Same with Aegon/Jon C. So why didn’t Euron and Dorne not work? Because they ignored what was written in the books, what was put on screen of what was Dorne in the books? We have the characters yes, but not the characters of the books they changed a lot, the introduction of the character is already different, they are not the characters from the books. Same with the storyline, they ignored 90% of the storyline of Dorne and invented their own storyline to take place instead. Same with Euron, they didn’t introduce the same character, they change his personality extremely, his introduction is different and his storyline is already different from what we’ve seen in Feast and Dance. Like with Dorne, they deleted 90% of this storyline and implemented their own new one. And once again it failed. It was that choice to change those storylines beyond repair that destroyed these storylines not that “winds is not out”, else Dorne and II would have work with season 5 and failed in season 6, but it filled already with 5 where Dorne already had a full 1,5 season worth of story.
And if you ask me why I think these storylines didn’t work, directly it’s the change of the storylines, indirectly I think it has more to do with D&D working too hard, look at what they put on their shoulders. Writing, directing, producing, location scouting etc, they worked 51 weeks a year. Most people would be broken after just one year of that short of free time. It also meant less time for writing, they didn’t have half a year writing time (which they would have if they would have delegated more).
And season 5 if they wanted to implement right as just for the books, that would have been a more difficult job than what season 1 was. All these introductions, puzzling together etc. I think if they did a “better adaption”, season 5 would be the hardest season to write. And that mean that season 5 would have been aired half year later. Because writing would have been delayed. So I stick with it could have been done, but not with the timeframe they had.
(with introduction I mean that introducing characters is a hell to do, the first scene is the hardest to write because if you do it right the character stick, if not it fails.)
kevin1989,
I think Sansa will rule Winterfell, not necessarily the North as its own kingdom. Maybe it becomes its own kingdom at some point but yes, why wouldn’t everyone else declare their region’s independence when Sansa declares the North’s? No more 7K. I think there’s a completeness to Sansa returning North — she felt it was so dreary and boring compared to the south and was so excited to go south at the beginning. She didn’t much like Arya, followed her mother’s view on Jon, had all of these fairytale hopes and dreams but when she gets what she wished for, it’s a nightmare, everything she dreamed of turns out to be her worst nightmare. The place she so badly wanted to leave (the North), she now longs to return to, she wants to see Arya again, wants to see Jon again — a place and individuals she didn’t much care for (I relate to that) but they now become that much more meaningful to her after her ordeal. The south has become a place of nightmares for her.
I think she will have a hand in the politics and system of governance in the North, perhaps some impact in the south, and I think her growth into this figure in the books will be better done. I think the political realm and the formal leadership of the North (in peacetime) will ultimately be Sansa’s role.
I agree that the Others won’t be finished by the end of the series and there’s a chance they’ll come back. I think there was a dropped line in the finale script to that effect, “Just because winter’s over doesn’t mean it won’t come again.”
I don’t remember Bran’s powers being necessarily the strongest in the North but correct me if I’m wrong there.
It’s so hard for me to comment on Tyrion. I’d love for there to be a peace with Young Griff and Dany but I don’t know, I don’t think it’s happening. Maybe! But my mind keeps reminding me of KL I think I need to accept the basic basic framework we were presented with in the show, no matter how much I personally dislike some of it or it’s going to be another disappointment to me :/
mau,
1. Agree, that’s why the best is just stick what GRRM tells us. No need to think otherwise till something else is told to us.
2. Than GRRM should have listen to HBO to hire more writers. There are lot of good writers that would have been interesting to help D&D out with characters they have difficulty with. Many shows does this, with lost for instance some characters were re-written by other writing members, some writers had a connection with certain characters, so they always did a check-up on each other’s scripts to see if those characters were true to who they were. Give them the plotpoints to work with and they would have helped. I still believe D&D worked to hard, and I saw that in personal life (not myself luckily) how working to hard can fuck you up, and it also result into not wanting any help.
The only question I have is if Martin would have given his written pages to D&D if they would have made season 5 introduce these characters and they wrote those characters like the books. I think these pages would have included at least things they could have used in season 6.
As for D&D I wonder how the future look for them, I read last week (if I remember it was last week) that the banks won’t grand netflix any more money. Meaning that if Netflix won’t get + numbers very soon it will not stay very long. Forbes even think that Netflix will file for bankruptcy next year in Q1 of Q2. So people please get a netflix account. Especially with Disney now that hit Netflix hard (Netflix will up their price next year to 20 dollars for the highest subscription, meaning it’s for 4 people at the same time, Disney has the same kind of Abbo 4 people 4k, 5.1 sound for just 6,99, I know many people in my surroundings who has quit netflix and got a disney subscription instead. Personally I boycott Disney as much as possible, not because of the artists but the way the business works with Disney and the part of them with China and the government their.
So people boycott Disney, add netflix. 🙂
mau,
I see your point there, but they could have asked for help with that 😉 There’s no shame into asking other’s to help up you’re project. Look at LotR, many scenes were written by Peter’s wife because as he state himself: He is good with fighting scenes, and she is good with the character moments. In the end he gets the credit of course, but why LotR works so great is that Peter Jackson knew which scenes he should write, and which scenes he should ask help and let other’s write. Look at Blackwater for instance in GoT, even the great writer Martin had difficulty with the preparation for the battle and ask D&D what was missing, they added the amazing Bronn/Sandor scene. A small scene that GRRM didn’t think off that made that episode twice as good, without it it would have miss some personal stuff.
Adrianacandle,
As for KL. It could be what you or Efi said, that when the Dance of Dragon v2 happen, KL will burn, and a big portion of innocent people dying, especially if 3 dragons fighting above it. And Euron won’t be blamed of course, especially if Euron won’t right Vyserion himself but control her from afar. How to explain to the people there, yeah sorry my dragon was possessed. The people see a Dragon of Dany burning shit down, she will be blamed. (I also think the vision of Damphair of the Woman he sees in chains controlled by Euron is in fact Vyserion but a version that Damphair can understand). And I think it would be more dramatical and sad if Dany in fact turned away from her Dark path and decide to work together, which result into her being cast down by the people of KL, we don’t want you for our queen. And that she decides there to go north helping against the others, and because once again she tries to help the people she gets killed.
The thing is that we don’t know how much George told, did he really tell: Dany get’s crazy and burns KL down in rage, and she gets killed of it. Or more, she is responsible for the burning of KL that resulted in many deaths. And later she will get killed by Jon.
kevin1989,
(Source, April 15, 2019)
I think the sibling love between Jon and Sansa will happen, I think it’s already there. Maybe in a more dutiful “because s/he’s my family and I grew up with them” kind of way but it’s there. Jon lists Sansa among his loved ones in ASOS:
They might never get along famously but it’ll be interesting to see what kind of regard they have for each other now, after everything, and I think it’ll mean that much more to each of them. Ditto for the Sansa Arya relationship too.
Maybe Sansa’s storyline is not done in the south! But my feeling is that Winterfell is her destiny 🙂
AH YES, THAT OLD EXCUSE!
Okay, yes, that would be tragic — and then she sacrifices herself as Nissa Nissa. She’d definitely be a martyr in that case! XD;; While I definitely see Dany not going so full-blown and needlessly democidal intentionally and there being tragedy in that (but she gets blamed for doing it deliberately), if she takes the fall for Euron’s actions she herself isn’t responsible for, I feel it’s too much in the martyr direction. I think there needs to be a balance between what we saw in the show and 0% responsibility.
Adrianacandle,
Yes and Aerys did use that same excuse, those damn barrels of wildfire keeps exploding out of nowhere.
And agree on Dany, I don’t think she will go full crazy in the books.
Crazy crackpot theory which probably won’t happen: What if Aegon loses his shit, I can see Sam getting to know the truth about the WW treat in the Citadel. What if he travels to KL when he finds out about it to warn the kings, and Aegon arrogance light up again and he thinks that he is the prince that was promised (or he finds old documents of Rheagar), and he kills Arianne to forfill the prohecy, probably not it would maybe to dark if it happens twice.
But I think Arianne will die, the question is only how. If my idea about LF is right that he wants to make an alliance between Sansa and Aegon, it’s possible that he would poison her, or maybe she dies in childbirth?
Crackpot theory 2: Maybe Azor Ahai is a woman, I know that goes against Jon being Azor Ahai, but who knows.
kevin1989,
Kevin, I have no idea how the characters are going to end. I do believe that the show shuffled the cards; they may have even kept just the spine of Martin’s ending, and done everything else on their own, apart from one thing, Dany’s death by Jon’s hand. That said, I do think that the ending is truly “turn the whole story on it’s head”: it started with the annihilation of the Starks, and it will end with the Starks being on top (this means no Young Griff at the end). Regarding Jon, I will point you to what I think about his possible ending as Jamie’s parallel, which I uploaded in the thread of WotW Awards for Best Death Scene, two or three posts found towards the ending of the thread, in which we had a nice discussion with Adriana (you’ll have no problem finding them).
So, about the rest I can only draw some broad lines, and unfortunately I haven’t thought about this nearly as much as you have. (I don’t really care about the horn tbh). But I do have one principle that I think has to have a pay off in the books, and that is the prophecies; they need to be implemented, they won’t be literally implemented, but they will. What follows is extremely tinfoil, in spoilers.
So, for the old order to be restored, according to the prophecies, they’d need a promised prince. That prince is Jon and only Jon. Born by Fire (Targ dad) and Ice (Stark mom), with Valyrian and First Men blood, claimed by the god of Fire (for fighting with fire, the burned hand), by Ice since he is murdered and Ice represents death and oblivion, and by the old gods because he shall live in Ghost. Jon is literally the prince of Dragonstone, since he is Rhaegar’s heir as his only surviving child.
If we accept that each of these three elements, Ice, Fire and Old gods have some sort of a “champion” to represent them, then Daenerys is Fire, potentially Bran (or even Jon ? ) is of the Old Gods and then there’ll have to be another for Ice. Could that other be one of the Ironborn? I do not know. In any case, Victarion probably dies at Slavers Bay, and he’s the one who has the horn. Will the blowing of the horn result in the taming of the dragon, or will it result in the coming down of the Wall at the other side of the Narrow Sea? Hm! tough choice.
[now that I think about it, what’s up with his hand? do you have any idea? he’s the third person with a damaged hand after Jon and Jamie]
So, Dany returns to Meereen with a horde of Dothraki, and she purges it. I don’t know if it’ll be meaningful to burn the khals. Perhaps she’ll need them as leaders. This would free the part of “fire for death” to be applied in Meereen, that is literally surrounded by death, as the “pale mare” has come, and the “pale mare” results in death. Off to Westeros she goes.
The North. Well, Stannis gets defeated but doesn’t die and returns to CB only to find his daughter dead by fire and JS ressurected. This would leave room for Jon to claim WF, continuing what he and Stannis started. And he’ll probably do it with his wildlings and the remnants of Stannis’ army. By that time Sansa arrives, followed by the Vale/LF, who have gone into war with the Boltons for her sake. After they retake WF, Sansa condemns LF to death -the giant in the “castle of Snow”. I think this one is WF. The lords gather, or have gathered, and proclaim Jon king in the North because of Robb’s testament (which I gather is in the possession of Manderly). At this point it is not improbable that Jon learns about his parentage via Reed, but the time he learns about it may predetermine many things, so it can go differently.
[somewhere in all this I see Jon going to Hardhome; rescue from the sea is still to be expected, and Cersei’s new fleet is going to Eastwatch for some reason I don’t remember, but seems to involve mutiny].
Anyway, our Jonny boy goes south with Stannis to take the dragonglass from Dragonstone. That’s where he meets Daenerys, because she has to unmask Stannis for being the false AA first. She’ll probably roast him before proceeding to KL. By this time in KL we see the Young Griff; he’s ousted Cersei because Cersei has lost everybody (her fleet, her uncle Kevan). Griff has taken Storms End first, and has won the support of Dorne. Meanwhile at Dorne news of Quentyn’s demise have arrived; this makes allying with Griff whether they believe him or not a one-way road. Jon Connington will probably offer her a marriage alliance; if she’s in Dragonstone with Jon they already have an affair (or will have shortly) and JC comes by ship. She decides to give YG a chance, just in case he is who he says he is. I don’t believe that YG will ride a dragon -I tend to believe that the dragon will roast him just like Quentyn (the rule of 3s), or will try to roast him and he’ll be saved for some reason.
The problem is with this story that Daenerys won’t get to rule because she never touches the throne in her prophecies, so she won’t take the throne at this point, and won’t marry YG. If Stannis is still in DS, I see her going North to help Jon (the go North before you go South part of her prophecies). But before she leaves the South, she’ll have to have unmasked YG. Will this involve burning KL first? This last fire is the “fire to love” and it should be here. But it could go as it did in the show and she leaves from DS to go North, the burning of KL soon to follow while the city is stil under YG. I suppose that YG shall have the support of a large section of the South, Storms End, the Reach (perhaps), and Dorne, and also has the GC with him, while Varys shall be at his side. So he seems pretty damn powerful to me, perhaps a good case to take care of him after the North.
So Dany has many reasons to want to go to the North first; it’s mostly the connections of the North with the other two kingdoms; her third dragon is probably there already; and of course Jon whom she truly loves (blue flower on ice, mount to love). They beat the Others, but imo unmasking Jon for being a secret Targaryen falls here. While WF is burning (not like the show, really burning), Jon will take the dragon. He is the “smoking beast from the burning tower, breathing shadow fire”. If there’s an undead dragon, there’s a DoD vol. II here, phase one, Jon-Dany against the Undead. The dragon has three heads. Also, Melisandre has to be sacrificed in this context. Jamie might die at WF.
And off they go to the South again, with whatever forces remain to them, for taking KL for Dany. It won’t be that easy as in the show. There will be a battle. The problem is, what is it that will cause Dany to loose it? It’s probably her third treason for love, but it won’t be like the show, it will be brutal. Dany will have given everything for the throne; killed her brother, sacrificed her own baby for Drogo, lost each and every bit of her humanity, only to realize that Jon doesn’t love her? That he won’t be with her, that he won’t share the throne with her, because he actually prefers the North? WTF!!! I’d burn the f@@@ing city myself.
So, major endings: Jon/Bran kings, or Bran/Sansa king-queen with Jon self-exiled, or Jon king only married to Sansa, no other way, whether in the North or in the South. Whether Bran will be king in the North or in the South might depend on the Wall: if there’s a need to restore it, wouldn’t Bran have to be in the North? Jamie, Jorah, Bronn dead, Euron/Victarion dead, Asha/Theon alive, Cercei dead by Tyrion’s or Arya’s hand, Tyrion at the Wall, if there is one, or exiled, or even dead? Arya goes west but only after some years (she’s 11 in the books). Rickon alive, Robin Arryn alive. Storms End is given to one of Robert’s bastards, perhaps? Dorne! omg, it’s the most difficult. Perhaps Arianne? I don’t know, I’d like it to be her. Defeated, made mistakes, but still alive. Davos alive, hand of a powerful king (fire prophecies, either to Jon or Bran).
Wow, finished! it was exhausting, lol.
It posted! I am going to burn some hair now, lol.
kevin1989,
The only help D&D needed were finished books. Nothing more. Your whole argument is based on blind trust that GRRM knows what he is doing with the story. Except several plot points that we saw in the last 3 seasons he has no idea what he is doing. He is lost like Brienne’s storyline in AFFC.
Rory McCann and Gwendoline Christie.
Efi,
I like your idea about the horn that Victorion has, and I forgot all about his hand. I will pay close attention to that once I got to that part of my reread.
As for Dany, I believe she will stop at Volantis for a moment, and have one chapter in front of Valyria.
As for Stannis, I believe he wins the battle against the Bolton’s. Look at the theory I posted a while back about the weirwood tree. Stannis was happy his man died through the ice, part of the plan? And he is going to that weirwood tree that is in the center of that lake. I believe that theory but that Stannis will be pushed out of WF for better wording once they found out he burned the weirwood tree. I agree he will found out that Shireen died. But I don’t believe Jon is the one to take back the castle, there’s a reason why the Northern Conspiracy exists, not to be throw out, if that was the case we would know who their leader is but we don’t know who the leader of the Northern conspiracy is, only that that person wants Rickon back and the Bolton’s to pay, and I have a clear idea who the leader is, and because the leader is kept such a mystery I think it’s safe to assume that the Northern Conspiracy will succeed and that we forgot that the leader existed. The leader of the northern Conspiracy is the one that will have the prologue chapter in Winds of Winter: Jeyne Westerling. The reason the show went with Jon is because of how TV works, having the main character win huge battles as a hero. Jon got Hardhome because of that, in the books that’s Val. And the same happened with the retaking of WF. They gave what the fans wanted, Jon as the big hero using his sword to defeat his enemies. Jon won’t get that in the books, he will get his moment later as the prince that was promised, GRRM always divide the wins.
About Sansa, I’m still not convinced with her going north. Why would LF care? LF would never use his army to give Sansa what she wants, he only think how he can extend his power by using her, bringing her home will only lead to him being less necessary, and he knows the temper of the northern lords. Sansa is north in the show because of her getting the Jeyne treatment. The more logical thing LF would do is let Sansa focus on Cersei, and gives his alliance to Aegon. If Sansa goes north it’s without LF and the Vale, it doesn’t make sense for the books.
As for the giant getting slimed by Sansa in a snow Castle is already been in the last Sansa chapter of SoS. Sansa makes a snow castle, Robyn comes with his doll that he pretends is a giant and destroy the castle, Sansa ripped (slay) that doll. She slayed the giant in a snow castle. Even Westeros.org has that as the answer.
As for Robb’s testament, I think it’s in possession with Jeyne. People tend to forget about her.
I think Jon learn about his past by hearing it from Ashara Dayne herself who is in Greywater, they will go there once WF is fallen by the WW.
I think hardhome is off the table for Jon in the books. I think Mel will send man towards it. And I remember something about patchface (Which I think is the champion of the sea)
Cersei didn’t send those mutiny’s yet. She talked about the plan, but first Kettleblack (the one she was fucking) needed to send to the wall, which he didn’t. She couldn’t continue her plan because she got thrown in a cell by the high Sparrow and her plan failed without the Kettleblack. I think this was done more because we had a feeling: Oh no Jon is in danger, oh luckily Cersei failed to execute her plan he is safe, and then Jon dies no matter what.
I like the way that Stannis goes to dragonstone to get the dragonglass, but do we know that that’s where it is in the books? Maybe it was just a way to get Jon and Dany to meet on the show?
I like the way you see Aegon storyline and Arianne. But don’t forget Euron, he will be one of the dragonriders.
But you don’t think Nissa Nissa will happen in the books, that Dany get’s killed to forge lightbringer?
But I wonder if we are not misled by GRRM. Ashara Dayne is not in the books. And there is lot of mystery about her which tend to point to that she is important for endgame, why else would George wait to answer those questions. And the only thing that I could come up with is that Ashara’s giving birth is important. And I somehow believe dawn=lightbringer and dawn can only be wielded by somebody with Dayne blood. I don’t know how that’s all connected, but I think it has to do with Jon and Ashara, not perse that she is his mother, but I think she knows that Jon is important and the prince that was promised.
I really wish winds was here, I wish we could get some answers and we finally could discuss the next stage, when winds is done we finally could discuss other things.
And it’s funny when it was said that D&D should have asked GRRM for help. He can’t even help himself lol More writers on GoT would be a great thing but Martin is the last person in the world that should be consulted about ending the story.
Efi,
Wow that was quite the comment! Nicely done :).
One of your speculations had me thinking about something that has irritated me since the finale:
In general, I supported the idea of Dany going mad. Intellectually I knew it made sense, had been foreshadowed etc. I just never emotionally felt the horror of her actions preceding the massacre at Kings Landing. I was never anggggry or disgusted by her or even afraid for her (or of her).
I might have felt differently if it were other characters instead of the Tarlys and Varys who were torched at her command. Daddy Tarly was not a major character nor a likeable character and I was never emotionally invested in him for good or bad. The younger Tarly was a tiny blip on my emotional radar. And Varys built his own funeral pyre, and not even in a clever or smart way that would make me outraged or massively disappointed that he didn’t succeed.
In your spoiler section, some of the events you describe might have led me to more fully embrace and celebrate Dany as a mad queen. Something for me to think about more. Thanks for sparking my imagination!
Brienne’s storline is far from lost, it lead to something amazing in the end. Which will come to fruition next book (and don’t say yes next book, that was with all the books, season 1 ended in nice cliffs for book 2, book 2 for book 3 etc).
LSH, Jaime, Brienne, probably volanqar come into play there.
If GRRM doesn’t know what he is doing, that means that the ending and story of the books will be 90% different than the show because you know, GRRM wouldn’t know where his storylines would end and could neither tell D&D, but wait didn’t D&D state they had 2 whole days talking about the books with George? Seems like D&D had a feeling that George knew exactly where he was going with every storyline, why else talk for 2 whole days?
Another thing is, if GRRM didn’t know what to do with his storylines, he wouldn’t have made those prophecies and flashbacks and stops just at the right moment. And it’s strange that in your book nobody can take GRRM works serious when talking about how he writes what he knows and where he’s stuck. And you keep hammering with the: GRRM doesn’t know anything what he wants to do.
But when it comes to D&D when somebody doesn’t believe a single word they say, you come to their defense faster than a white knight. We need to believe what they say, everything they say is the truth. Everything that didn’t work with the show is GRRM fault not theirs.
As for all D&D needed were the books, I agree half with this, yes it would have made it easier, but amazing writers don’t need the books. Look at leftovers, the books were done, and Lindelof made 2 extra seasons beyond the books, true to the characters, with his own imagination and getting to know the characters. Those 2 seasons were received better than the first season that was based on the books, that’s what D&D needed. And they didn’t need the books, if they need the books they would have put the whole Dorne and II storyline from Feast and Dance in the bin and made their own version of it that has nothing to do with the book version. If they needed the books they would have follow the books with those 2 storylines, which would only need to contain the Feast chapters in season 5 for it, they decided to not go with GRRM chapters but try to do better than him, making their own version “Not crowning Myrcella”, “Kill myrcella” because revenge score better than politics. “Not the kingsmoot of the books” but change it in “Daenerys will get my big fat cock” how could she resist right? That’s more interesting than Euron wanting to control the dragons.
Their imagination should have began after they ran out of source material, not 2 books before. So the argument they needed the books doesn’t hold when D&D didn’t use a half of the Feast and Dance material and implemented their own self-made version. I would go with your argument if D&D did implement those book version of the story but got stock after that. But GRRM at least provided them enough material for whole season 5 (including Dorne so dorne wouldn’t have failed in 5 if the books were the problem), and half a season 6.
kevin1989,
I think that mentality Aegon may have is possible but Arianna would have to give herself over willingly. And I think it’d be too dark if it happens twice.
It’s totally possible Azor Ahai is a woman! While I have a feeling it’s Jon (him finding that passage in the Jade Compendium that Aemon marked for him and finding the Nissa Nissa prophecy, Melisandre seeing Jon’s face in the flames, seeing only Snow when she asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai), quite a few hints also indicate Dany: Aemon declares Daenerys is their last hope, Benerro of Volantis thinks she is the prophecized hero.
But I think it will come down to both Jon and Dany. Dany is told “his is the song of ice and fire”, Rhaegar believes Azor Ahai is “the song of ice and fire”, “bride of fire” follows the blue flower in a wall of ice when Dany has her HotU vision, Jon has that dream in ADWD (“Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.).
And that video AltShiftX made on House Dayne, Dawn being Lightbringer, nicely lines up.
What if Young Griff takes… two wives? 🙂 Like what’s been speculated with Rheagar/Elia/Lyanna?
kevin1989,
She may, yeah. In that video AltShiftX made on House Dayne, he mentions that both Jon and Dany do have a common Dayne ancestor — Dyanna Dayne.
I’ll link the House Dayne video for anybody who is interested 🙂
I really wonder why you keep hammering on the “Can’t finish his story”. Wasn’t this GRRM story and the problem was that the books weren’t finish and they need those? So you already stated that they needed GRRM help: His books. His second best thing GRRM could give D&D is advice and telling synopsis of the journey of his characters.
And you seem to make connections that has zero correlation
1. That the books aren’t done doesn’t mean that GRRM doesn’t know his story, he only didn’t wrote down what he has in his mind. But he does know where to go. But to understand this I think you need to first understand how writers think and feel when writing and the process that takes place, its not only about knowing what you want to write, there comes more with it, especially with a book where there are no actors or directors to give it a better feeling, with a book you need to be all in one on page, writer director for the readers, the actor how the dialogues are spoken etc
2. That GRRM hasn’t finish his books doesn’t make D&D amazing writers by default.
Efi,
Setting aside our previous disagreements re:Jon, Dany, Sansa, I had wanted to share my thoughts with you on Dany going dark:
I think her darkening process will be far more gradual and the burning of KL won’t be so much a one-sided reenactment of ‘The Purge”. She’ll conquer it, she’ll pursue her enemies, she won’t be so willing to compromise, and it’ll be ruthless… but I think it’ll be more accidental, setting off the wildfire caches, rather than methodically strafing the streets of people she once swore to save — and she’ll be blamed, with the people turning even further against her.
Re: Dany looking for home. There’s speculation that Dany believes by taking the throne, she’ll be finding her lost her, a place to belong, that connection to the Targaryen line and in taking KL, she destroys her home and her dreams.
Adrianacandle,
Adrianacandle,
I already saw that one last week 😀 But that at least that they had a Dayne ancestor, the whole N+A=J theory. And I can put that too rest until George tells us otherwise.
But I like the whole N+A=J theory
This theory also suggest that R+L=Aegon => YG and Varys takes him from Ashara Dayne after Ned switched the boys.
*listen to haddaway – Baby don’t hurt me but sing: What is love? baby got switched, got switched, please no more (looking at GRRM)
Strange question, when you hear music, do you sometimes see scenes from tv or movies that you feel are connected? I have a song from my favorite artist which I connect to Daenerys. 🙂
But the thing I wonder is the following with the books: The books are called “A song of Ice and Fire” > A song > George writes many and many songs in his books, I wonder if maybe if we only look at the songs we could find some clues about the ending 🙂
kevin1989,
Well, at least that small sect that practices pologamy 🙂
But as long as they’re happy…? I don’t think it’ll happen though 😉
I’ve kind of hit a wall with parentage theories. I think R+L=Jon and if Young Griff is real, he’s Elia’s Aegon, heir to Dragonstone and the Targaryen dynasty.
But let’s discuss some of your hypotheticals!
If Jon were the only trueborn Stark, yes, I think Jon would step aside for his siblings. In ADWD, Jon found rulership an utterly miserable and isolating experience. He was pretty unhappy and alone. I think after all the misery of war and all of the loss, he won’t want to stay and rule.
Why would Jon and Young Griff be switched? (Also, I believe Young Griff is two years older than Jon. Young Griff was born in 281, Jon in 283).
Sometimes, yes!! What’s the song you connect to Dany??
And when you wrote out the “baby don’t hurt me” lyrics, you successfully gave me an earworm!
Also, when somebody says a phrase, a song bursts into my head. Such trigger phrases include:
* Good morning (“Good Morning” from Sing in the Rain)
* Wake me up (… before you go go, “Wham!” by George Michael, which reminds me of Arrested Development)
* Just you wait (“Just You Wait!” from My Fair Lady)
* Under the sea (Little Mermaid!)
* Don’t you (forget about me, Simple Minds)
* Bye (bye bye, N’Sync)
… And more! XD
It’s mostly because my mum burst out into song whenever somebody uttered these phrases (… usually not in public though…) so I’m damaged that way 🙂
kevin1989,
What kind of advice a person who can’t finish his own story can even give? And again, tell me one great line and one great scene that Young Griff had in the books. What was even lost? Nothing.
And GRRM already said he gave Benioff and Weiss everything he knew. There was nothing more.
kevin1989,
It’s not strange that you are fan of Brienne’s storyline since your posts are unedited as her chapters.
And you can’t seriously compare complexity of ASOIAF and Leftovers. But even if we ignore that Leftovers were finished in book form. Lindelof just continued the story. He didint have to make an ending from the mess that were last two books.
And what you are not understating is that knowing the endgame of characters and knowing what to do with the story are two completely separate things. The fact that GRRM knows that Bran will be king doesn’t mean that he has any idea how to actually write that.
kevin1989,
Dornish storyline is epic failure in the books as well culminating with pointless Quentyn’s storyline. It’a directionless mess just like the majority of last two books. That’s why he can’t finish the story. Because story with 20 storylines happening at the same time can’t be finished.
There is this illusion based on nothing, that GRRM knows detailed answers to every question and D&D just needed to ask. But reallity is that they did ask and that the last 3 seasons are direct result of talks they had with GRRM.
GRRM said many times that he is gardner and that he lets his story develop on it’s own. He is not Rowling, he doesnt have detailed outline.
mau,
As for young griff, he is not even POV in the DWD, all the focus is on jonC, and for the time being, we are witnessing his story rather than YG(young griff). We don’t know for sure what will happen in the next book, but YG’s story is in early stages. when I read the 5th book, Joc C and YG’s story was the most fascinating one for me. specially JC. His motives, his objective to correct his pivotal failure to defeat Robert, take revenge for rhaegar and put his heir on iron throne. For me, their adventure is full of excitement. if they succeed, that would be joyful. A man who had lost everything he had,coming from exile that he didn’t deserve, and reaching to the one goal he had, while his army is outnumbered. it’s fascinating. I root for JC,YG, and golden company to take the iron throne. But if they fail to succeed, then that would be an excellent twist for me. Like what happened to Ned, or Rob. They were characters many people loved to see them succeed and reach their goals but they did’t. Also, I love GC and their back story and why they should sail from Essos to westeros to help aegon.
And I can give you my favorite moment from this story-line and it’s the moment JC reveals YG’s identity to GC. their conversation and decision to sail to westeros. I loved that scene. you can compare it to the scene in the show where Northern lords declare Rob as their king. Imagine watching a similar(even more powerful) scene with YG and Golden company where they take oath and commit themselves to put him on iron throne and take their home back,. Imagine a powerful scene where we feel how important is for exiled GC soldiers to return home, etc.
kevin1989,
Song. It’s the song heard in ep. 2, Jenny’s song. It speaks of a Targaryen prince who left everything because he loved a commoner, Jenny. And then tragedy strikes and they are separated, and she stays alone “High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts; the ones she had loved and the ones who were gone and the ones who had loved her the most”.
Jon will give up his claim (or whatever it is that he will have) in favor of Sansa and Bran.
Adrianacandle,
I think I agree with this. I don’t like Dany going ballistic over a guy, which is why I want Jon as her rival somehow -maybe not outspoken rival, some sort of last minute political revelation. I think she has lost all that she had to lose and when she returns to Meereen she’ll much more decided, determined to take things into her own hands, and much more cruel and ruthless for imposing her view. This means, however, that she will not be that lovable in Westeros and that they’ll see her more like a conqueror instead of a savior. She’ll have to prove that her other contestants for the throne, Stannis and f!Aegon are false leaders, they’re as charismatic as they pretend to be -Stannis is not AA as he believes, YG is not a secret Targ. For her, false pretenders are claiming her home, not just a throne.
And I’d prefer it if KL was burnt as a consequence of Dany and Jon dragon-fighting in the sky, whereby Dany gets killed. Jon would still be culpable mostly for the burning of the city and secondarily for having turned against a queen he has initially supported. And after having caused that much a catastrophe he retires.
This was a tough one! I’ve gone for Alfie and Gwendoline who were superb for me.
Also 285 comments in just a few days proves Watchers is still alive and kicking despite GOT ending and the prequel being cancelled!
ThisGirlHasNoName,
Oh, you’re welcome! Thank you very much for your wonderful comments!
It’s all speculation of course, but it’s rather the most logical way things can go, which is why it isn’t that much appealing. My imagination is very down to earth, I’m afraid…
As for the show, they did leave out some things that would have made a difference regarding the audience’s perception of Dany. i.e the situation in Meereen with all those refugees, or her command to kill all the men over 12 yo wearing the tokar in Astapor, or the scene of her walking below the men she had condemned to crucifixtion, where she feels disgust, sorrow and even despair. They would have been powerful and meaningful scenes, but also brutal for the audience, which is probably why they didn’t go there.
Unfortunately the showrunners built on Dany being the hero with the dragons, because that’s what was attracting the audience, especially when they ran out of their source. It was a commercial-managerial decision, and when it came down to it they almost presented it as if it was almost all about a boy. Which is why it doesn’t feel convincing for the fans. You can’t want world domination all your life and allow for a boy to mess you up, it’s contradictive for the character.
Efi,
Right, and I think this goes back into our previous discussions: I feel this lacks significance, it’s too simple, and doesn’t really meet one of the series’ core explorations (“the human heart in conflict with itself”). Jon and Dany being simply opponents, straight enemies. There’s no weight to this after seeing their arcs so linked and after seeing this kind of conflict time and time again. It feels too… easy.
If Jon’s playing Dany, using her as a means to an end, for her dragons, and Dany goes ballistic over him, I feel it turns Jon into something like (book)Daario v2 and Dany into a woman scorned.
I feel the themes of inner conflict will probably be crucial to the climax of the story, which is a reason why I think personal feeling needs to be involved — the key thing that makes these struggles exceptionally difficult. Jon and Dany have spent their arcs struggling with these inner conflicts and that I expect these will become crueler, especially when it hit a climax like this. Enemy vs. enemy feels like every other struggle for power — particularly when political power has never been what Jon’s after and it doesn’t address the core of Dany’s desires.
In my view, Jon’s arc is about uniting disparate peoples from all walks of life and connecting with them regardless of blood, origin, class, balancing personal ideals with the greater good, struggling to put the personal aside and committing to the interests of everyone rather than one group. Dany’s, I think, is about how far one will go for their ideals, the struggles of answering injustice with justice, the struggles of personal ideals vs greater good vs compromise. And her constant search for home and belonging. And Dany and Jon both are characters who feel very deeply.
Jon fell in love with Ygritte even after she forced him to sleep with her, threatening his life. Still, Jon saw who Ygritte was and loved her, good and bad, wherein this posed that inner conflict with his greater duty — (“wrong to love her, wrong to leave her”). Jon had a genuine respect for Mance and his efforts to save his people, despite being conflicted that Mance was leading a wildling army to an attack on the realm, putting [Jon’s] loved ones in jeopardy, Stannis is a harsh, unyielding man and Jon deeply disapproves of some of Stannis’s actions (forcing the wildlings to bend the knee, willingness to resort to blood sacrifice) but Jon respects Stannis because he fights for the realm. Those struggles, which are so engaging and crucial to character, kind of just… evaporate in your scenario. And now Dany… Dany’s helping Jon defend the realm, she has a desire to protect those who she views as weak, to “save” them, and Jon and everyone would probably be toast without her — Dany’s ruthless, Dany’s unyielding, but Dany still has ideals she’s fighting for, some of which Jon shares.
Yet here, in your proposal, Jon feels nothing for her, sleeps with her for a dragon (is that what you mean in this scenario?), and plays her to get what he wants with no personal conflict, unlike all the times before. It feels like here, it’d be easy for Jon to kill this woman who loves him before he goes on to marry his sistercousin Sansa to stabilize his rule, take the throne, and rule the land. It’s like Jon has been reduced to becoming one of the users in the series, that Jon has become like everyone else — and he’s now king.
That and — while Jon’s not cool with incest with Dany (which I think is understandable), he’s okay with incest with Sansa, who he’s grown up with viewing as his sister.
I just think the relationship between Jon and Dany needs to be more significant, more nuanced, more complex to make it meaningful.
I think Dany will become even more determined and have less qualms about doing whatever it takes to realize what she thinks is correct. After Meereen, Dany hasn’t lost everything. She’s fed up wearing the “floppy ears” and is done compromising her ideals for peace and decides fire and blood is the way to take it, but she still has those desires to fix injustices, “better” the world, but Dany will be more ruthless in how she goes about that. I think she’s an exploration of this.
I agree that Westeros won’t look at her like a savior and that’s going to be deeply damaging and I think she’ll have a battle on her hands. I don’t know if it’ll be with Stannis but I think she’ll certainly view Young Griff as a threat if he’s able to do what she isn’t — rally the love of Westeros, be viewed as a savior by the people she wanted to free, win their support for the throne she feels will filling the holes in her life (of home and belonging).
Efi,
Do you have the link for this? 🙂 I know he’s talked about the ice and fire title but I don’t remember him talking about religions in regard to ice and fire so if he’s said anything more, I’d love to see!
I also wanted to say I also think Jon, Bran, and Dany will play significant roles in the battle against the Others. I also hope we learn more about the Others and why they want to exterminate us. I’m also kind of hoping it’ll be a good reason so I feel kind of torn.
kevin1989,
Well my reservations regarding all this is that Jon has the most chapters throughout ASoIaF after Tyrion. Daenerys comes next. If nothing else, he is a protagonist, along with the other two. Also, having someone who is in reality not “the hero” abandon everything in the end has zero emotional impact for the reader. For this to work narratively-wise he has to be “the hero”, otherwise who’d care if he abandoned everything? Ok, Jon, go to the Wall or beyond, no one cares about you anyway, you failed! No can do.
lol, the rest in spoilers.
Cersei prepared a fleet. That fleet rebelled, and is on it’s way to Eastwatch (probably). It has nothing to do with the men she intends to send for assassinating Jon.
This is what Wiki says:
“Lord Waters absconds from King’s Landing with the new dromonds after the arrest of Cersei by the Faith of the Seven. Ser Harys Swyft worries that Aurane intends to join Stannis, while Grand Maester Pycelle believes the grand admiral is sailing for the Stepstones.”
These are ten large dromons that Cersei has built and put them under the command of lord Waters.
The prophecy: there’s absolutely no chance that an entire prophecy concerns a literal snow castle and a doll. Absolutely none. It’s nonsensical. I don’t care what Westeros.org says. After all, the first part of the prophecy referred to Joffrey’s poisoning, and Sansa did carry the poison on her, why would the second part be any less significant?
As I said in my previous posts, I think Sansa will escape. LF (if he’s still alive) will be forced to go after her because he won’t want to be left out of the developments. I think Jon and Sansa will use him for the army he’ll be bringing along, and then they’ll kill him. I think you’re mistaken about the purposes of LF’s plans. He wants to make Sansa lady of the Vale, but then he’ll want to take the North too. For this to happen, he needs to have a force with him, that’s why he begins building it at the Vale. His first target isn’t KL, it’s the North. If Sansa leaves, she messes with all his plans and he won’t allow her to do this by herself. He’ll go after her and chances are that he’ll even unwittingly take part in the restoration of WF.
AA. I think it has already happened. Daenerys is AA, and her sword of fire is Drogon, her mount to dread. What’s crucial is that AA according to the prophecy is an adherent of the god of fire (think of him like Stannis). Dany is not exactly that, she is fire, as she is Valyrian. So there will have to be no literal stabbing of a woman to light any sword. People think that AA is a hero, he’s rather not. He’s a champion of the god of fire, terrible, to be feared rather than admired (just like Dany).
However, there is something going on with Melisandre. The god of fire’s banners are the fiery heart, so I think that Melisandre will have to be sacrificed for lighting the swords of the fighters, just like the show. I don’t think that was D&D’s invention, it’s so precise that it has to be from the books. There we find the “fiery hand”, an armed corps at the service of the temple of Rh’llor in Volantis. This may have multiple references to Jon cradling the fiery sword in his dream; it may well signify either the dragon (AA’s “fiery sword” that Daenerys brought to life) or the fiery swords of the soldiers fighting at WF or both. Note that Melisandre is 400 years old; she probably comes from the wildlings of Hardhome, and her story can be recomposed in ADWD. The wildlings were building a city at Hardhome; it was destroyed in a single day, when pirates attacked. Melisandre was taken captive and was sold to slavery, “lot 7”. I don’t know who will kill her though. Jon and Jamie come first to mind, but it could well be someone else.
As for Dawn. I have no idea what’s going on with it. If YG’s septa is Ashara Dayne, she may well have it with her because Ned delivered it to her, but it hasn’t appeared yet. There’s a couple more Daynes in ASoIaF, so one of them may have it. Could it be Darkstar? The thing is, that that sword being called Dawn can be misleading, because Dorne is so far South, that it made sense to call it the sword of the morning, or Dawn, just like Ice is the sword of the North. Ice is the sword of heroes, currently in possession of Jamie and Brienne. All these details intertwined as they are with legends are very nice, but they can be misleading.
Dragonglass: This is from A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
“At the Wall, after hearing about the properties of dragonglass from Sam, King Stannis Baratheon sends word to his castellan Ser Rolland Storm on Dragonstone to begin mining obsidian. He fears he will not hold his seat much longer but hopes that the Lord of Light shall grant them enough frozen fire to arm themselves against the Others before the Dragonstone falls.” ASoS, Samwell V.
We still don’t know what’s going on with that mining at Dragonstone, and at the end of ADWD Dragonstone has fallen to Cersei, but Cersei’s command crumbles as she may has won DS, but loses Storms End. There’s a chance that by the time the forces she has sent to DS return, Young Griff is on the throne; they could conform and “bend the knee” to YG and thus a part of the Reach lapses to his control. If Stannis doesn’t retreat to Dragonstone, Daenerys will have to come North first and there to prove him false AA. But how will dragonglass reach the North?
The Northern “conspiracy”. While there’s a lot going on, Umbers playing on both sides and Karstarks with the Boltons, I think Manderly and his designs are a third part. I think he has the testament. Jeyne Westerling is nobody in the book. She’s totally insignificant, and she’s not a Northerner, so I don’t see how she has any role to play, and in addition she’s pregnant by one of her rapists after the RW. I think Manderly wants Rickon to make him lord of WF based on Robb’s testament and with the backing of Stannis. Knowing he’s alive makes Rickon heir to WF (pushing Sansa down the line of succession because she’s a girl), unless Jon appears who is senior (or Bran). The thing is, Stannis now has at least some of the Umbers, the mountain clans (Flynts etc, some of them are at CB probably for witnessing Jon’s resurrection), and more or less Manderly. My guess is that he’ll also try to use Asha, and thus gain some support from whatever’s left of the Iron Islands (which are now divided into three political branches). That’s all Jon’s to collect once he comes back from the dead, whether Stannis will have been defeated or not.
Also, Davos has gone to collect Rickon, but will he make it back to WH? Or will he go straight to CB to deliver the boy to his brother, thinking that he’ll be safer there no matter what Manderly intends to do with him? Skagos is almost a straight line from CB and Eastwatch, it makes no sense to take the boy to WH. In addition, Davos will probably the one to tell Jon that there’s a fleet from KL waiting at Eastwatch. It fits; also the timelines fit.
I think that the only non-POV character that will be important for pushing the story forward is Ashara Dayne, Young Griff and Manderly. Jeyne? No way.
I’m with you, be done with WoW already, George!
Adrianacandle,
Oh, it was a live interview and I had found the youtube link somewhere, sorry! It was a long one, where he answered to the audience’s questions, over an hour long. But I heard him with my own ears about this dualist thing and I was greatly impressed.
Efi,
Oh, okay! Thanks! If you remember a name of the interview or the source, can you let me know? 🙂
Efi,
(CC: kevin1989)
I think you’re saying if Jon’s “the hero”, him leaving Westeros doesn’t make narrative sense?
Jon isn’t abandoning everything, like Frodo didn’t abandon everything when he left Middle Earth. Westeros may become a source of pain for Jon, as Middle Earth became for Frodo. I went more into detail about my thoughts about this in the other thread but I’ll copy an abbreviated version here:
Every choice has upsides and downsides, which I think this story is exploring. These actions, no matter how good, don’t necessarily have a personal reward but may start a change for the better on a greater scale. No, not every good action is punished, of course, but doing the right thing when it requires personal loss and sacrifice is hard.
Exile may not be so terrible for Jon the character after having suffered so much in war and leadership. It may be a mercy, as it was for Frodo. It may not feel good to a portion of the readership, I know I wanted more for Jon, but in this way (as it was for Frodo), it makes sense for his ending. Westeros has not been good to Jon and nor do I expect its struggles or the various wars will be. I think he’ll be a main player in defending the realm and that will have its impact.
That’s true, Hardhome hasn’t happened and Jon intended to lead the rescue mission himself. But has Tormund left yet for Hardhome by the time Jon is assassinated?
Jon did intend to lead the ranging himself this time but this is the first time he’s attempted to go himself. Before, Cotter Pyke was leading the expedition.
As for Melisandre, amidst all this doubt about many plot points happening, I’m not sure it’s certain that the mass lighting of swords will happen. I think it depends on how the battle against the Others occurs. Melisandre may do that… or she may have different roles.
I think Melisandre comes from Asshai, not Hardhome, if that’s what you meant?
You should watch the Dayne video AltShiftX did! 🙂 There’s more to Dawn than the name.
I think this is a very tricky situation. An (even legitimized) bastard still comes behind the trueborn children. Robb named Jon his heir, but that was because he believed Bran and Rickon were dead and didn’t want his succession passed into the Lannister family via Sansa.
I think here are the ways Dany and Drogo as AA/Nissa Nissa match up and the ways they don’t:
Yes:
*Dany loved Drogo.
*Dany was married to Drogo.
No:
*Drogo didn’t willingly present himself as a sacrifice.
*The hatching of the dragons was not brought on by Drogo’s death but by MMD’s.
Tricky:
*While Dany killed Drogo’s body, Drogo was already gone with MMD having taken his soul.
AA is referred to as a hero in-universe but I can’t remember anything saying he’ll be feared and “as terrible as the dawn” ala Galadriel. But I could be misremembering something.
The prophecy itself:
Adrianacandle,
My own brain tries to connect multiple theories together now, if this above is true. And Ashara=Septa Lemore. It could also mean that Ashara will be the bridge between Aegon/ Daenerys and Jon. (but that I doubt I think Ashara is with Howland Reed because it would make more sense if Septa Lemore is Tyene mother, and I don’t want Septa Lemore to be the mother of multiple secret children, but I keep the idea open).
The thing is why I personally hope this will happen and also that I hope Jon won’t be the one to take back Winterfell is simple: I don’t want every big event happening to one single person. Jon=L+R=secret Targaryen=heir to the iron throne=PTWP=taking his home back=etc etc etc. I want that things are divided more evenly. For me I don’t care if jon=L+R because I never really cared about who would end on the throne, and even then his upbringing isn’t that important, he won’t get the throne there is no prove, the only reason why L+R=child matters is that it resulted into the Rebellion and Ned keeping a promise to his sister that he kept for years. I personally would love N+A=J more because then it would all be about protecting Cat and his other children, if he tell the truth it’s them that get hurt. And I would love (for better wording) that Ned fucked up big time. And of course if Ashara is indeed alive and is the one who will tell Jon the truth about everything, it would be that more dramatic if Ashara was his mother. Jon would meet his mother.
The song I connect to Daenerys is https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bethhart/skin.html
I also have that with some words. And arrested development, I wish there would be a sixth season. My favorite is Lucille.
kevin1989,
OOOOH, I see! Okay!
It would be really cool if Ashara Dayne and Howland Reed were in on R+L=J with Ned 🙂
Yeah, I can agree with that. I think Jon’s purpose is beyond Winterfell and the politics of the North myself. I believe Jon being the child of two magic bloodlines has more to do with the Others than the politics of the realm.
Yes, this has been my thinking too.
I really liked R+L=J because of the sheer irony of it: this kid, who everybody believes is a bastard and writes off as such, would have been heir to the Targaryen throne if Aerys hadn’t been overthrown. He’s the child of ice and fire, two ancient powerful bloodlines, but nobody has any idea. He’s the first instance of a Stark and Targaryen union. And that Ned hid this child from the king (his own best friend), risking treason, the North, his family’s lives and his own, out of love — and nobody had any idea.
It’s exactly the thing I love, all of those conflicts and ironies 🙂
Part of me did admittedly like the idea of Jon on the throne — but not after queenslaying — then it’d look wrong and wouldn’t abide by that society’s laws. And I didn’t think Jon would get the throne under other circumstances either, it felt too easy. I thought he’d be dead in the war against the Others, living on borrowed time after fulfilling his purpose (kind of like Melisandre). And it makes sense to me to phase out the old system and bring in the new, even if I’m not personally a fan of King Bran/Dead Dany/Exiled Jon — but I can see sense in that story.
Thanks for the song!
Omg yes.
Michael: There’s been a lot of lying in this family.
Lucille: And a lot of love.
Michael: More lies.
The best thing about Michael’s last line is I don’t know if it means the lie is that there’s a lot of love in this family or that Michael is saying there’s been more lies than love 😉
Both are true….?? 🙂
He could have given them his written pages of winds. And his advice could be what he is planned with the books. And don’t come with me with: D&D wrote 8 seasons within the timeframe he didn’t even finish winds. Put every single script of GoT into one file. And it wouldn’t even have half the words that one book of GRRM contains.
As for Griff: That argument is invalid. What great lines this Renly have in the first book? Or Tywin? But they were included. Why? Because they become important in book 2 and 3. Griff doesn’t have to be important in book 5 to be included. Book 5 is his introduction. Book 6 and 7 his story. They would not have any difficulty with season 5, because they had enough. Just put in what was in Dance and you even would have had the first 2 episodes of season 6 for him. After that it would be guessing right? But a good writer would have filled that in himself. They even invented whole characters that weren’t in the books, so thinking of “What next” should not have been a problem for them. As you state GRRM told them everything, and even then they couldn’t comprehend what to do. That means GRRM told them about Griff/LSH/Euron etc and even then they though: Put that in the bin, we are making our own amazing version.
As for great scenes, They could have upgraded some scenes with Griff to make it more interesting, and I will do that only with the notion of what the books gave me:
1. Varys states Aegon had work with his hands with the common people. Give him a scene that he works with his hand with the common people and that he enjoy that.
2. Let him instead of Jon C tell who he is and that he wants to take back his home for his family.
3. When fighting against the Stoneman, let him save Tyrion, and let Tyrion save him a moment later. If I remember correctly he has a chest which contain armor and a sword. He could use that sword to save somebody. (Let that armor be Rheagar’s armor and sword that Varys secured)
4. He has a bond with Jon C. Make a scene with that. Which could come into play a second time when Jon C is in the water with the Stoneman.
5. With the GC let him first feel that he has lost. They will not follow Aegon without Daenerys, they got paid to wait so they wait. Let him have a scene with his father’s armor where he feel he lost now. Only a day later when the GC are talking about taking another contract, he will give his plan to go west and let that talk be in Valyrian. Which the text say he can speak multiple languages.
6. He fights himself in the battle against storms End, he even put a young boy in his kingsguard: Duck, he also see Duck as his only friend, he doesn’t have any friends except duck. He feels happy that people choose to fight for him. Let that boy die in the battle against storms End and be a hard lesson for him.
And to ask a question back: What was so interesting about Renly in book 1, I didn’t feel any personality or information with Renly in the first book, except that he is Robert’s little brother? Why did they include him? Why not cut him? Or include him in season 2 for the first time. Why include Loras Tyrell in the first book? Which had one scene in the books just one. But he was included. As you state Dance doesn’t contain any exciting stuff with YG (still more than Renly and Loras in book 1), and he serve no purpose in the fifth book. So why include those other 2. That answer you gave is the answer why YG should have been included and else Renly and Loras should also have been cut in the first season.
In fairness there is nothing to suggest GRRM did not share his written draft of Winds, we knew they were aware of Arya’s story line as they had written S6 before GRRM published the Mercy chapter as an example.
mau,
Brienne’s storyline didn’t need to be edited. They are perfect as they are. And thanks for making a comment about posts, it shows you are out of arguments and seem to resort to the only thing left: attacking the one giving arguments.
And the reason why I like Brienne’s storyline is simple: For me, a story doesn’t need to contain, action after action after action. I read a book to care for characters, to get to known them, and having the actions based on who the characters are instead of plot. That’s why I like Brienne, her story in Feast is not about action, but about who she is, she starts of naive which backfired and she is resolved to something she has never done: Kill to survive. She learns the hard way about trust. People who had studied literature are praising Feast because of these storylines like Brienne, Cersei and Samwell.
As for leftovers: The characters are much more complex than those of GoT. It delves into a subject not many understands, and Leftovers put that amazingly on screen. And I’m not talking about the plot that 2% of the people are gone, I’m talking about what Kevin Garvey is suffering from. And Nora and others.
If he doesn’t know where his storylines are going, why did he talk for 2 days with D&D. Then a hour would have been enough, but you even seem to ignore D&D statement that they talk for 2 days about the books.
Then why is Dorne storyline praised by people that have studied literature, but insulted by fans who know little of literature? (And I’m talking about feast)
And second thing: GRRM doesn’t have finish winds of winter because he is too busy with unnecessary projects. (repeat this 100 times and you finally understand why GRRM didn’t finish the books instead of hammering that he doesn’t known where to go, but I will not react to this statement again I have corrected you already more than 10 times and I’m a bit tired to keep repeating what was posted 2 weeks ago in an article on this site which is deliberately ignored to keep the argument alive that GRRM doesn’t know anything. That article already debunked your argument, and you still are talking about it.
GRRM bad, D&D good.
mass,
You read my mind.
Efi,
That’s why I love the songs. I wonder what the “Last of the Giants” really is about.
Efi,
Adrianacandle,
I avoided the issue of feelings, for which I’ve talked before and you know more or less what I think.
But if Dany has no qualms about getting what she wants, Jon won’t have either.
I think his foreshadow for when he comes back from the dead is very ominous. He’s called a “beast”, having “black heart”, “black liver” and so on.
Imo Jon is not a good guy.
I think he tried to be; he tried to do what’s right, sticking to his beliefs and his morals and tried to uphold his vows to the NW while all along braking them, with the purpose of trying to help people, trying to find the happy medium for all parties, and those parties (or some of them) betray him (NW), or fail (Mance, Stannis). I think he’ll be far less patient with dissidents when he returns, he already contempates how certain of his associates at CB are practically useless; he’ll deal with the wildlings at Hardhome as he wants; with Stannis as he wants; with the Boltons as he wants. I don’t see why Dany would escape the same treatment.
I think that whether or not he’ll have feelings for Dany in the books will depend on when he finds out who he is. The most popular version has it that it’ll be an involuntary incest, but what if it isn’t? (it’s not what I believe about this here, it’s only that I’m exaining both possibilities) What if Martin decides to marr him even more by making it voluntary with the purpose to take her, her armies and her dragons North? That would be a huge conflict for Jon (provided that he still has a conscience when he returns, lol). If it doesn’t go that way and he doesn’t know, he might as well develop feelings for her. And no matter how it’ll come to their confrontation, the weight of killing her even in battle would be too heavy for him after everything, and especially if he unwittingly participated in the burning of KL.
While I agree with your estimate about the human heart in conflict with itself, I don’t see in what you describe above what will Dany’s conflict with regard to Jon be. There’s this guy, whom she undoubtedly loves, he’s the heir to the throne, so she should give him everything -DS, the IT, the country, her armies, herself- in spite of the fact that she wants it for herself, right? Then why does she not? Why is it that Jon has to kill her? Where’s the conflict for her if she’s only conflicted about wiping out KL or not? And why it has to be KL and her “noble” desire to make a new world for her, and personal feelings for Jon? What is Dany’s conflict with regard to Jon?
It’s for this reason I think that Dany won’t give anything to Jon, not even Northern independence which will be the bare minimum. If they develop feelings for each other, they’ll go awry in the end, they’ll turn from lovers to foes for this to culminate in a killing.
In the scenario that Jon is punished or exiles himself for what he’s done this version fits independently from his feelings. He’ll be that grey, that much of a criminal, that he’ll probably disappear from the face of the earth.
As for Sansa, I think that unfortunately this doesn’t forebode well for her either. If she ends up marrying him, it’ll be exactly what she doesn’t want, a political marriage. All I know is that Jon cannot stand as a king alone. If there is any kind of feelings between them, then she’ll not have a white knight, or a kind prince that she was dreaming as child, but rather a black prince, a black knight; she’ll have a criminal herself. It’ll be getting what she wants, but with the classic Martin twist.
Note that in this version the contrast between the white knights of the kings guard and the black knights of the Wall is strongly at play. Sansa got to experience that the white knights are the exact opposite, black, with no respect for her or for human life; while so far at the Wall, the other black knight, or black bastard as they call him, protects human life as much as he can and he’ll keep doing so.
kevin1989,
Yeah, JC had the hots for Rhaegar, but he didn’t pay him a second glance, alas!
As for Aegon, I don’t know. If he’s a Dayne, he has Targaryen features because the Daynes themselves are relatives of Targs, via Dyanna Dayne?
Efi,
As for Jeyne, GRRM confirmed in Conmicon 2015 that Jeyne will be in the prologue of Winds of winter and that she will be important for the whole book. (My guess is that Blackfish will be the POV, to think of it, POV of prologue always die). So I wonder what her role will be.
As for the dragonglass thanks I wondered if that was show only or not.
Adrianacandle,
“I think you’re saying if Jon’s “the hero”, him leaving Westeros doesn’t make narrative sense?”
No, I’m saying the exact opposite. For the readers to feel for him, he has to be “the hero” par excellence. Otherwise who’d care if he went to exile or not? (Doylist).
Brilliant.
Lucille: Michael. I was almost attacked last night, in my own home. I walk in and there’s a colored man in my kitchen.
Michael: “Colored”? What color was he exactly?
Lucille: Blue.
And that doctor: He will be all right. XD
Adrianacandle,
“AA is referred to as a hero in-universe but I can’t remember anything saying he’ll be feared and “as terrible as the dawn” ala Galadriel. But I could be misremembering something.”
It’s my estimate. AA is mentioned as hero because the PoVs confuse him with the promised prince and the last hero, but these (both) are different prophecies. Of all the prophecies about these guys, only that of the last hero comes with sth that appears like an ending. That of AA and the promised prince are more vague.
The quote that you give is not the correct one. Melisandre confounds her data again. This is the prophecy:
“When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.” (Melisandre to JS, ADWD Jon X).
[of course she thinks it refers to Stannis, how original!]
The red priests already have the right estimate (as much as it can be right in ASoIaF):
“Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …” (ADWD, Tyrion VI).
Note in this:
“to make the world anew”
“triumph over darkness”
“death itself will bend its knee”
“all who die in her cause shall be reborn”
Also, the volunteer component was there the first time, to make AA. The second time it’s about AA “being born again”, a second time. In any case, in this prophecy there’s no trace of a voluntary sacrifice.
Nathalie and Alfie.
I thought Gwen’s acting in the scene where Jamie leaves was kind of weak to be honest.
Efi,
(1/4? It’s long because I’m including quoted sections from your post!)
In the scenario you laid out above, Dany has genuine feelings for Jon but Jon’s just using her, which makes him into just another user in the series for what Dany can do for him. But I also explained how if it’s just two enemies carelessly using each other, there’s no significance or weight to this relationship that seems to be foreshadowed.
I think what you described that makes Jon a pretty good guy, especially by ASOIAF standards, since his goals are moral and he’s trying to help everyone. I think this means Jon is not totally successful, that he’s heavily conflicted, he screws things up a great deal in his desire to help people and “set the word to rights”, but not that he’s “not a good guy.”
GRRM called Jon a “classic hero”. He’s by no means perfect at all but I thnk he is one of the handful of characters that is closest to it and an exploration of this archetype. How the hero fighting the monster (Ramsay) is a bad call and how he himself brought on the monster’s wrath.
I don’t know what Jon’s going to be like when he comes back, that’s totally up to GRRM, but I’m hoping he’s recognizable as one of the few decent people in this series who is trying to save everyone. Who has a sound moral compass. Who’s not headed down the villain road.
The reason I dislike Lady Stoneheart is because she’s not Catelyn, she’s no longer Catelyn, and Jon was shanked in the middle of his arc. The character isn’t done yet. So him to come back as this dark figure, unrecognizable, it’ll be like a different character continuing his arc.
As of now, foreshadowing or not, Jon is called those things due to the stigma of his bastardy (bastards having black hearts), something Jon is decidedly not responsible for, and his reputation, in which he does a series of unpopular things in an effort to try and help everyone he can — people such as the wildlings, trying to reach those happy mediums. And because of his bastardy, which is not his fault.
Efi,
Jon also acknowledges it’s good they speak their mind but the advice they offer is advice he seldom finds helpful because it tends to be pretty bigoted (“let them die”). He also acknowledges Bowen is right about some things (Hardin’s Tower, food issues).
Yes, it depends on how Jon comes back. If Jon is callously using Dany and discards her because he comes back as this dark, more villain-y figure without a conscience, I’m not sure why exile would be empty for the reader. He’d be an emotionless, dark figure, not somebody poised to become a promising king for a new Westeros, not somebody who cares about humanity.
To that end, if Jon’s going to have no feeling left for these people he so badly wanted to save, for Stannis who he respected, for Dany who’d be helping him, would he care so much for his family if he’s coming back so changed?
If Jon is less patient with dissenters and more willing to see his will enforced but still has the capacity to care, doesn’t that make him more like Dany? I think he’d be capable of developing affection for her in this case, especially if she helps him beat back the Others.
There’s also the possibility that Jon may come to love Dany even if he knows who he is already and will develop some kind of genuine affection for her. She’s helping him defend the realm and may be giving everything over for that. He may come to admire some of her traits and certainly her actions to defend the realm. This is what won Jon’s support for Stannis and Jon did fall in love with Ygritte, despite the good and bad.
There’s the possibility that it might not be romantic love but platonic. I think it’s romantic… But I don’t know for certain. I think there will be genuine affection there if Jon comes back capable of affection.
You asked me in the other thread how Pol!Jon makes Jon a jerk and the first possibility (Jon having sex with Dany to trake her armies and dragons North) is how.
Jon doesn’t like killing but he’s not haunted by his kills in battle. Jon is haunted by Ygritte because he loved her.
Efi,
I think you laid out the conflict — Dany wants the throne for herself, she doesn’t want to be a consort, but she’s in love with a guy who may have the better claim and she’d be his consort. What does she concede? Her lifelong quest for the throne in her name or honoring the claim of the one she’s in love with?
The other conflict is their ideals and how to build a better world could very well clash. They may want many of the same things bu disagree with how to get to these aims. Do they concede their ideals for love? Their duty? Which wins out? In Dany’s case, her love for Jon vs. her ideals for a better world.
I believe that’s coming to a conclusion of this conflict for Dany. Jon’s also may not ask for Northern independence since that hasn’t been his focus as of yet.
I do think their feelings will go awry at the end, making these conflicts that much more personally excruciating. But like with Jon and Ygritte, those feelings will remain. But it’s not a certainty this will lead to lovers becoming foes and battling it out in a Dance of Dragons — perhaps but perhaps not. I think what is certain this will lead to more hard choices because of these feelings.
Going off the speculation of them engaging in a dance of dragons, what do you think they’d be battling for?
Efi,
In regard to becoming a criminal:
If Jon kills Dany via queenslaying, yes. That will be punishable by Westerosi law and socially reviled.
If Jon and Dany are fighting each other in battle as foes, that’s not a crime in Westeros. It’s another combat.
And it depends on Jon’s reasons for doing so. If he’s doing it for something like preventing more destruction and saving lives (a black knight protecting humanity, as you say in your last paragraph), it’s got that moral aspect (via either Dany going off the deep end as in the show or Nissa Nissa). If he’s doing it for something self-serving, it lacks that moral aspect.
As for Sansa and Jon, why would it forebode badly for Sansa if Jon is this black knight protecting humanity if he killed somebody in combat? And if he’s a criminal via queenslaying, would that be any more foreboding to Sansa when he’s done it to save lives? I’m not sure how Jon becomes king if it’s queenslaying, one of Westeros’s worst crimes — I expect the other kingdoms would have a problem with this. Jaime killed a known mad king and he was still socially vilified.
If Jon is this character who still cares about human life, I’m sure he wouldn’t enjoy the idea of a political marriage with a girl who he views as his sister either. With this Jon, I struggle to see him wanting to become king after all the hell but okay, somebody may want him to do his duty as “heir” but why would it be so important Jon himself be king? Issues with the believability of R+L=J in-universe aside, why can’t it be somebody else if the line of succession is restarting? Why would Jon need Sansa to rule? Why couldn’t he marry another noble from another kingdom, like Dorne? Jon has blood connections to the North but aren’t the other kingdoms as important? Why wouldn’t Jon grant Sansa the North’s independence?
One of the reasons I don’t think Jon will be king is that it’s reverting back to the old order when I think the idea is that the ruling system is heading toward a change, a change for chosen rulers. As I said to Kevin, what makes Bran special here is that he’s not subject to human emotion and how it can result in that inner conflict. Bran, as the Three-Eyed Raven, possesses a neutrality others can’t. He’s not even Bran Stark anymore as he has divorced himself from family allegiance.
Sorry for all the questions!! 🙂 They’re meant in good faith! 💖
Efi,
This quote comes from Davos I, ACOK:
Your quotes are also correct, they add more to the legend.
The story of AA and NN seems like a willing sacrifice:
The full quote also seems to indicate that AA brings about a better world — making the world anew from the darkness, bringing about a summer that never ends. Those who fighting for her will be reborn. It doesn’t seem like a terrible cleansing power of fire or purging the world or anything like that.
Rhaegar also believed that AA was the “song of ice and fire.”
Still, hero terminology is used when telling the legend itself and it doesn’t seem to be because the AA prophecy is being confused with other prophecies. For example:
Yes, sorry, I was getting mixed up so this is what I’m looking to clarify. So Jon must be “the hero” for readers to care about his exile — is that what you’re saying?
I don’t want to misconstrue anything so if I’m confused, I want to clarify your meaning 🙂
LMAO YES!!!
Tobias: I just blue myself.
This might be my all-time favourite. The constant references to incest:
Buster: Sister’s my new mother, Mother! And is it me or is she looking hotter too?
Lucille: Then why don’t you marry her!
Buster: Maybe I will!
Michael: We’re veering away from relatability again…
Michael: Maybe it’s time you went out there and got yourself a girl– pet!
Buster: How about a turtle? I love those leathery little snappy faces.
[Lucille enters]
Michael: You certainly have a type.
Efi,
An extra message to apologize for all my typos, of which there are many. Some are from sticking keys (spilled juice T__T), some are because I suck at proof-reading my own work because I read what I meant to say rather than what’s there, which I think — with your work — you’d know about? 🙂 So if you’re unclear on anything I’ve written, don’t hesitate to tell me!
Another correction because I wasn’t so clear with what I said originally:
*I do think their *relationship will *suffer many difficulties[…]
Btw, I learned how to cut with lasers (!!!) on Saturday and I thought of this 😉 The smells of burned wood, metal, fabric, acrylic are strong…! So I wonder if that adds to my cred with the LoL?? 🙂
Reading through the comments and seeing a certain pattern among those who are active, I almost feel like I’m going to be slightly sick. It seems that Rory would win over Alfie and in another vote that wotw voters would vote Jorah’s death over Theon’s and I’m like… kind of heartbroken tell you the truth. I shall not miss this.
Adrianacandle,
No, seriously. That post was so long it needed a sacrifice for thanking the lord of light. Like the ancient Greeks (there’s one sacrifice before, and one after, but I forgot the before part…).
Cutting with laser must be rather tricky. You must hold your hand extra steady. I can guess that it stinks and smokes depending on the material? It seems to me that you’ve done so many different things in your life! I liked your job with the little ones.
Also, unfortunately my memory is not like yours. I don’t remember things and I don’t keep an archive (if my memory was better I’d have far less problems at work). The only thing that comes to mind is that I watched that interview after season 7 ended, but it wasn’t a new interview, it was older. It was a discussion with fans, but I don’t recall where apart from that it was in the US. There was a very large audience below the dais, so if you see only five people, it’s not that.
Adrianacandle,
There’s a difference between LSH, Beric and Jon. While LSH and Beric goes go into nothingness with death, and therefore lose bit by bit (Beric) of entirely (LSH) their humanity, Jon’s soul will live in Ghost because he’s a warg, while neither of the other two was. In think he’ll remember everything.
In the first chapter of ADWD (Sixskins) it becomes clear that the longer a warg stays inside his animal, the more he becomes the animal. This is from one of Jon’s chapters, I picked it up a few days ago and it impressed me:
“Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake”.
So, Jon already feels like Ghost, and he’s not even in a dream, he’s awake and riding. This is why I think that when he returns to his body he’ll be more like Ghost, he’ll be more like a beast (I am certain that Ghost is already referred to as beast somewhere), which is one of the reasons I think that the “stone beast” of the prophecy refers to Jon. I don’t think that his memory will have been affected, as Beric’s was, but as a beast, his senses will be much more sharpened and he’ll be much more violent. Also, he’ll be more protective of his own, as in take control of his pack, meaning his family, because wolves are all about “the pack”.
Also this, Melisandre thinks to herself:
“She was stonger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them.”
A shadow is definitely Jon, even though in this abstract Melisandre thinks of her magic. She already noticed how grand his shadow is, but now she’ll have to bring his “shadow” back from the dead, to fight the “creatures of the dark”.
So I think that Jon will be darker when he returns, and he won’t be such a good guy anymore. Martin has said that from death they all return worse because he didn’t like Tolkien’s approach to death and resurrection. It remains to be seen what this will mean for Jon.
Adrianacandle,
No, there’s genuine foreshadow that it’ll be a romantic, consummated affair. But I am not sure it will be reciprocated. As for Jon having feelings for his family, it goes with coming back more “wolfish”.
And once more it’s established, you’re a romantic, Adriana!
(it’s a good thing, you should be happy about it).
Adrianacandle,
Oscar: You’re drunk
Lucille: You’re high XD
singedbylife,
Not everyone has the same opinion. I would choose Theon over Jorah, but if other’s choose Jorah over Theon I have no problem with it. Especially when all were amazing this season.
Efi,
I don’t think this is villainous though. This is Jon’s only option to appease both sides (wildlings and the Night’s Watch), the only way to allow Tormund’s band to cross the Wall and have it not result in conflict, and it’s done to prevent violence (to prevent the wildlings from raiding the Westerosi countryside and taking off with Westerosi women against their will).
Ned had to do it too with Theon to prevent an uprising by Balon.
The hostages are given light jobs to do in the Night’s Watch, they’re not always separated from their families. What the parents need to do is to not go raiding and raping down south.
Tormund’s unhappy with this arrangement, so is Jon. But it’s not needless, unnecessary, hapless violence. It’s to prevent violence and to make a fragile peace work.
If Jon goes into Ghost, and I think he will, he may come back more wolfish but I think it’s hard to say what impact Ghost will have on his traits. Each direwolf has a different personality. I’m hoping the very core character of Jon is not too much changed for or I feel it’s going to be super unfulfilling to finish his arc. There’s also that Jon’s soul may still be kept alive, tethered to this realm, and that may or may not help withstand damage to his core.
Narratively, if Jon comes back as a black-hearted villain, I think it’ll feel like a different character vis a vis LSH. It’s not Jon anymore if he comes back as this conscience-free guy who only looks out for his family, that’s already like so many of the other characters in the series. Jon is defined by his morality, humanity, and desire to do the right thing. To lose that, it won’t be Jon anymore but another character. He may come back more wild, less trusting, less hesitant, less patient, etc. but I don’t think that means Jon has to turn into a total villain the way LSH did. Beric hardly did.
If this Jon returns as this black-hearted guy, why would anyone want him to be king at the end? Why would anybody be opposed to his going into exile?
I don’t know how Jon’s going to come back though because it’s totally up to GRRM. All I can say is why it’s important to me that his core character is intact because he’s still in the middle of his arc.
If this happens, there’s a question of who his pack will be. Adam Feldman asks in the final essay of his Jon series who Jon’s pack now is. If Jon comes back as this totally dark, conscience-free character, his pack might not be the Starks. Ghost is also not entirely of his pack. He’s kind of apart too, like Jon. They’re both kind of “other’.
And it would change the very focus of Jon’s arc from fighting for everyone to fighting for one group, his family — blending him into a sea of those kinds of characters who already make up a large population in the story.
I think this is a speculative connection. And I think there will be a difference between Melisandre birthing a shadow assassin and putting somebody’s soul back into their body. Melisandre doesn’t understand her own power. She gets things wrong. Likewise, she’s may not be in charge of her power when it comes to Jon and if Jon is AA, as she sees in her fires, I think R’hllor will be in charge of this, not Melisandre.
As for GRRM’s quote:
He says that characters come back not as nice as ever and death won’t make them more powerful. For LSH, she came back as Catelyn’s worst qualities. With Beric, he loses bits of himself each time. Yes, it’s unknown how Jon will come back.
But I don’t think it’ll necessarily be as this villain type with no conscience who only looks out for his family like 70% of ASOIAF’s other characters. In my mind, I think that’d create a big detour in his arc. I’m hoping his moral center largely stays intact because I think we need that going forward. I do think the narrative needs this because Jon’s character is kind of a rarity in ASOIAF — and I think you need some of his current traits in a main protagonist without them going dark, ruthless, largely devoid of a conscience, and committed to only one group. That sounds kind of like LSH… And we’ve got a LSH 🙂
But yeah, it’s out of my control.
Well, I don’t know about that… 🙂 People have told me otherwise in my life… 🙂 It’s a nice thought but I don’t know. I am very sad in my own life too, which gives me an unhappy outlook.
Anyway! Back to the story! What I think is important is that future arcs align with the themes we’ve already seen in the books but they’re developed further, with more of these struggles and themes explored in all sorts of ways. If Jon’s brought back and he’s this villain who only wants to put the Starks on top, it would feel narratively “off” to me after five books of Jon coming to realize and fight for everyone against the true threat. It would feel like such a big detour in Jon’s arc. As for feelings not being reciprocated, wolves are still capable of feeling and even if Jon does come back darker, I think he can still feel affection for Daenerys — she is still his own blood too, quite… a lot… so.
I addressed the bit about Jon having feelings for his family in the above post — we may not even sure who Jon’s pack becomes. Ghost is not really of his pack. He is but he isn’t. Kind of like Jon. They’re different. As Feldman says in the final piece of his essay, Jon’s struggle may be to find a middle ground toward his moral instincts and the wolfish side inspired by Ghost. Which I think will be important to move Jon forward on his arc to defend humanity, a fight I think he is needed for.
Efi,
You’re in good company!! I’m so afraid to post a whole one at once now because I am afraid a spam filter will recognize the text as identitical to a portion of the rejected post and spam-mark it too T_T So I’d have to rewrite…. D:
It does! But I think burned wood is really a nice smell 🙂
Cutting with lasers, it’s actually this big big machine (it’s more like a printer — a cutting printer) and you lay your material on the printing bed. Then you must align the head with a designated corner. Then you send the artwork (a vector image) to the printer, the printer converts it to code, and then it cuts out the design with fire! 🙂 I’m still so new at it so I’m still wary but you can do so many great things and it cuts, etches, and embosses!
You know those wax seal stamps? You can make one of your own with these! 🙂
I went to school to avoid life — straight out of high school and went for three degrees one right after each other! The work with kids was during my education degree and it was great! 🙂 I would have gone on to do more but I knew I had to enter the real world at some point and money was becoming an issue. Most of my work has been in art, design, and education! During my master’s degree, which was in visual arts, I created stop-motion animations to support my thesis but my day job is soul-sucking graphic designer x_x
Nonetheless, thank-you for telling me about that clip! I’ll keep an eye out for it!
YES!
Or the reverse!
Lucille: You’re high!
Oscar: You’re drunk!
Lucille: NOT THIS TIME!
Hahaha Oscar was brilliant.
I recommended you that show the affair. Just finish the show. Have to say that the last season was less great than the previous ones, but the last 3 episodes was just brilliant and how the show should have had it’s ending. The last episode brought me more to tears than whole season 8 of GoT had. Even now writing it, the ending was perfect, brilliant, and every character came full circle. Something many think GoT failed with. Some would call the ending of the affair “fan service” but I think with an ending you need to be true to what your show is about and true to the characters. And especially with a series like the affair, or GoT, where things are pretty emotional hard at times, where characters are being pulled through the worse in their lives for better wording, I think the ending should reflect that with an ending where everything pays off, where the tears, blood (for GoT) etc result into being worthwhile. This ending will come in my top 10 endings of all time, and maybe my top 5.
Efi,
I had another thought re: questioning Jon’s pack, belonging, and “otherness”.
It’s an interesting notion to explore because Jon’s not exactly one of his family. He both is and isn’t. Jon is different. He’s of Stark blood and Targaryen blood. Ghost is also different — he’s an albino, silent, and the first to open his eyes, found a way off from his littermates. Both have an “otherness” about them that I think is important and seems to be emphasized.
GRRM, Interview with a Dragon (2003):
GRRM, ‘Fantasy Needs Magic’ (2017)
There’s also that Jon identifies as a Snow, not a Stark. He wants to be a Stark but recognizes he’s not.
Sort of like Theon and Dany, Jon’s struggling to find a group to belong to but these characters are all always outsiders (Jon’s even an outsider in an organization of outsiders — the Watch). Theon has a name but was raised by an enemy family in which he was an outsider, Jon doesn’t have a name and was raised with the maternal side of his family but also kind of as an outsider, Dany has a name but was raised without a home in foreign lands with only an abusive brother as what’s left of her family. None of them really fit in their groups. And while Jon will always, always love his family, he’s not entirely one of them:
As Jon goes along, Jon becomes part of various groups but he’s always a little bit on the outside. He’s half-part of these groups but half apart. Jon is kind of always the outsider, never really in but never really apart either. Like Ghost.
I think it’s a good question — who would Jon’s pack be after all this? He’s always the outsider — but he picks up pack people on the way (after leaving home, he comes across Sam, Tormund, his friends at Castle Black who all work together to protect Sam). He’s literally kind of on the parameter too — of Westeros, guarding the Wall.
!!! Thank-you for the recommendation, Kevin!! I think we both agreed on how great Six Feet Under’s ending was, hey? So this is high praise from you!!
Adrianacandle,
Yes six feet under is my favorite ending of a show. I doubt any show can top that.
Oh, god, yes. Those final 6 minutes are utter, complete perfection. That’s how you end a show!
And such a complex one too!
For a show as much about death as it was about life, that was perfect.
kevin1989,
And this … this was a thing of beauty from Six Feet Under. There is no better expression of #$!*%! pantyhose.
Adrianacandle,
that show had come full circle.
“You can’t take a picture of this, it’s already gone.” One of the best quotes I have ever heard I must say. It took me awhile to understand this quote, but I finally understood it.
And of course Sia with Breath me. One of the best songs ever for me. And normally I don’t like pop-like shows.
But you like shows that is about the theme: Life and death?
Then I recommend the affair yes, but more the sopranos (you probably already watched that one), and a comedy/drama show called the Big C (it made me think of because of sia she had one song in that show).
Oh and do you know the show Shameless (the us version)?
Adrianacandle,
And that’s what SFU also did right, it implemented for instance a musical moment like this without that it feels cheesy.
kevin1989,
Yes, because the photography job fell through! But she decides to go anyway. And the morning she’s due to leave, she’s dreaming of her brother with that song playing, “I just want to celebrate, yeah yeah, another day of living, yee-aaah.” XD
But god, it was so like the morning I woke up to leave home for the first time and move away for school. I had to drive all the way across the country myself (okay, my DAD drove me from Calgary to Toronto — a six day drive!) but I remember waking up, seeing my room, seeing my bedspreads, my canopy, and trying to freeze these moments in my head, and when I left my mum. While I was riding away, erm… The Gray Havens soundtrack from LOTR starts playing in my head because I’m the world’s biggest lamest loser. XD;;;;;;;
Oh yes, I love that line. I think about that always when I take a photo or try very hard to make time stand still.
YES!
I haven’t seen those shows but I’ll put them on my list!
I really like shows that explore the nature of life, transition, and most importantly, human relationships (and I don’t mind death either! Dead Like Me, Pushing Daisies ;D), much like Six Feet Under did 🙂
Yes! They did a few scenes like this! Another Claire one and a very inspiring David one while he’s vacuuming XD
Adrianacandle,
Nothing wrong with the Grey Havens, I watched the movie 30+ times so I know that soundtrack at the back of my head.
If you like those themes, those shows are really worthwhile. And of course the Leftovers from HBO 26 episodes if I’m right.
Me too!! We may be kindred spirits™ (Anne of Green Gables), Kevin 😉
Oooh, thank-you! I’ve started a list!
kevin1989,
I’m sorry for another clip — this is another favourite musical interlude daydream 🙂
And what follows with Ruth and Claire:
Ruth: You’re not leaving here until you’ve put some food in your stomach.
Claire: Oh, I’m starving!
[Ruth watches Claire go to town]
Ruth: Are you bulimic? Is that what we’re going to have to deal with now?
Claire: Mom, apparently you want a child with an eating disorder.
I love how Ruth has to jump to these conclusions XD
Adrianacandle,
hahaha Ruth is amazing, I love her bound with Bettina. And the time she smoked a joint XD
Brenda and Lisa were my two favorite characters. The whole Lisa storyline was heartbreaking 🙁
Adrianacandle,
Goodmorning!
I don’t mind the questions, it’s just that I don’t have that much time and real life out there can be demanding.
The easy part of these questions: Jon being king. He will be when Daenerys arrives. I don’t really think that he’ll abdicate as it happened in the show, and Daenerys will have to be more practical and try to not alienate the North because she will need the backup of the three kingdoms –the least I can see is that they agree the position of the North to be discussed again after everything is over. So Jon will be king anyway at this point. I can imagine that he’ll abdicate in the end in favor of Sansa and Bran, which story-wise would be kind of nice. If, however, the lords won’t let him, if they demand that he stays, he has no legitimization in the North because he is a Targaryen; he needs to associate himself with the most prominent family in the North, and since Sansa would be free he’d have to marry her. That’s a straight up political marriage according to the feudal laws. Especially in the North he can’t be king by his own right, because he lacks legitimization.
In the South the lords might as well choose him to be their king (because he has fought, because he got rid of Daenerys or whatever) but this doesn’t mean that they trust him, because he’s a Targ anyway and because by that time he’ll be at least partly responsible for whatever it is that might have happened around KL. In this scenario I see the lords demanding that he marry Sansa, who has the connections with the other two kingdoms, and whom they know since the time of her captivity. This would also be a political marriage, but the difference here is that a Stark-Targ marriage to unify North and South had been a consideration since 150 years before that point, from the days of Cregan Stark and the “hour of the wolf”. Narratively-wise this would be like the fulfillment of a long promised match, and it would be the exact opposite of Rhaegar-Lyanna. Rhaegar tried to do that, but what he did brought more bloodshed instead of peace (there’s a nice abstract narrating how the 7Ks bled each time a Targ was in love). Now this match would be the match to bring peace and prosperity after all the wars. It fits thematically in ASoIaF, but considering the show ending I don’t know how this would fit with an independent North (because such a marriage would be really unifying North and South). So I don’t know if this is Martin’s ending and it does seem like a fairytale ending.
I suppose there’s lots of ways to achieve the “bittersweet”. Daenerys dead, Jon forever not the same, having done some pretty questionable things, the country destroyed through and through from the northern to the southern shores, many characters dead, perhaps we don’t need more for the bitter part.
There’s also this, from the books:
“Castle Black seemed a bleak and forlorn place in the pale dawn light. My command, Jon Snow reflected ruefully, as much a ruin as it a stronghold.”
This refers of course to CB. But it could be a foreshadow for WF after he takes it, or the North after the battle with the Others, or the entire Westeros for that matter.
[as I explained in my posts about Jon-Jamie parallels I think that it’d be more rewarding if Jon stayed North, without being king. But I still can’t imagine how it’ll be that Bran will end up in KL.]
Sansa. The point is that her arc is all about romantic love. But ever since her engagement to Joffrey, no one wants her because they love her, but for the North, and she laments that. Her engagements/marriage are all about subverting the beauty and the beast trope. In the end Sansa will have to break free of these norms and choose herself someone who will love her for her and respect her -so far she has zero respect. So marrying for political reasons is not really rewarding for her. The only way for a Jon-Sansa relationship to be rewarding for her is that he holds no power. I do see him abdicating in her favor (especially if Bran becomes king in the South), because as I said above he has no legitimization in the North. Also, it fits with Jon wanting to at least take a break from holding authority, or retiring from the political front scene altogether.
Whether Martin will go through with the romance as a romance, I have no idea. But in political terms this match would be a match made in heaven.
Adrianacandle,
“a big detour in his arc”
In my opinion it’s not going to be a detour for him. Being a part of his family, helping out Robb, avenging Ned’s death has always been at the core of Jon’s conflict with his own heart. So far he hasn’t been allowed to do that, because he chose otherwise; he chose the NW, and the NW is very cruel when it comes to family ties. But he chose the NW for all the wrong reasons; he wanted to belong somewhere, because he didn’t belong with his family. He was so selfless that he removed himself from the stage just to please Catelyn –I’m saying this schematically, but his father gone from WF what room would that leave him? Catelyn remained, didn’t like him anyway to the point that she told him he should be the one to fall from the tower instead of Bran, Robb was lord of WF, what did all that leave him with? It’s cruel. He didn’t choose it because it felt right to him, or because he believed in the wars the NW was fighting, but because he didn’t belong in WF.
So when he comes back I think it makes sense that he’ll be the one to reunite his family and lead it, because he has avoided doing that for fear of usurping Robb’s rights. In this sense, it’s a step forward for him to assume this role that so far has been denied to him or that he’s rejected himself for the reasons stated above. To put it plainly, I think that for Jon to go forward he needs to stop being so selfless.
And he won’t be that good of a guy anymore. I don’t know how much of his moral core he’ll lose, but a part of it will be gone, because he has been murdered, and that will shatter much inside him. It’s all a matter of perspective, I guess. If others in-universe already see him as a kind of “villain”, hence the “black heart”, in Jon’s perspective he played by the book. It actually was in his authority to forge peace with the wildlings; he did all he could to get rid of Stannis and his demands, and this entailed that he needed to give him some practical advice for making him leave sooner rather than later. He took in political refugees as was also in his right to do; he protected people. He decided to ride South to get rid of Ramsay with an escort of wildlings. In his perspective, he didn’t quite break the rules, he bent them and his feud with Ramsay was a personal one:
“No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone”.
I don’t think that he’ll see it differently when he comes back; he won’t understand their reasoning, because he tried hard, while they (Bowen Marsh and the rest) didn’t. And I think this difference will be a big one for him for handling whatever comes along after that. He’ll see the discrepancy between his own efforts and other’s lack of it and he’ll use whatever means he can for achieving his goals. He’ll punish the mutiny harshly, he’ll become the one to be feared, at least in the NW, because he knows what’s right and he’ll be done with negotiating about it (throughout ADWD he’s been negotiating about what’s good and fair and advantageous for the realm). That’s already tones darker, even though his core beliefs may well remain the same, and his noble targets as well.
Will there be a conflict? Well, will he want to be that harsh, or will he not? That may well be a conflict for him, and he’ll have to tame himself to fit in a “civilized” world while he’ll be more of a wolf. (can’t wait for all those dark thoughts!) That may well come into play with everyone he meets, including Daenerys. He might as well be attracted to her, or he’ll even love her, but I see him wanting to bend her to his own purposes first. And if he loves her, that’s a grand conflict, isn’t it?
Efi,
Good morning!
Or… good afternoon? 🙂
And don’t worry about rushing! As I’ve said before, I have no expectations of any other posters here!
I’m not sure if Jon is king in the books because that’s a pretty tricky situation (explained by thoughts above), but let’s say he is and refuses to abdicate: this may also make a case for a marriage between Dany and Jon if they want to make an alliance. If Jon needs Dany’s help defending the realms (and perhaps post-war too if the North is struggling) and Dany wants the North as one of the 7K she’s come to rule, they may also marry for political reasons and for a joint peace, unity — a theme in Jon’s arc, which would connect Dany to one of the kingdoms she wants as part of her domain.
But I’m not sure why Jon would want to take a throne though? Or want to battle for the throne? Why can’t Jon just let the North be independent, why does he need them as part of the 7K? There’s also the issue of the believability of R+L=J in-universe.
I’m not sure why the southern lords would want Jon to be their king if he’s partly responsible for whatever happened, even if he got rid of Daenerys. Why does it have to be Jon as king? Why wouldn’t they want one of their own in this position? Why wouldn’t they want independence for their regions?
If I was a southern lord, I’d be more concerned with representing my own region’s interests rather than pushing for a Northern girl. But I also don’t see why they’d be demanding this guy (a bastard son who’s suddenly being claimed as a secret Targaryen prince) take the throne after another Targaryen torched the place, especially if they view him as partially responsible. I’d want somebody else.
I believe the promised match was a Stark and a Baratheon. If not, what promised match are you referring to?
A Stark and Targaryen match has been fulfilled, even if it not publicly.
Efi,
I think there’s still the issue of the other kingdoms. In this scenario, it seems like the North is the most important region but I’d argue the other kingdoms — particularly Dorne — are more important. They produce resources the crown needs, of which Dorne seems to have the most. The North appears to need the south more than the south needs the North since the North produces very little and is a hard area to access.
If Jon’s done some very questionable things, I’m not sure why the southern lords would demand he be king — much less after seeing another Targaryen burn down the city. The stigma would be even stronger after witnessing Dany ravage the city.
Actually, I thought this very same thing referred to Jon’s destiny truly being Castle Black and the Wall 🙂
Jon and Jaime do have definite parallels, yes, but what’s rewarding for one reader may not be for another. I do see this as a preferred ending for a specific group of the fandom (Jon married to Sansa, Sansa as queen) but definitely not for other groups of the fandom.
I don’t think Sansa’s arc is all about romantic love or subverting beauty and the beast tropes. I think it’s a part of it — but that doesn’t mean she has to marry a boy she’s grown up with as her brother. I don’t think it means she has to marry at all. But she can! However, it doesn’t have to be Jon (why Jon?), it can be another noble. Maybe it’s even Young Griff per Kevin’s speculations. Young Griff is more believable in-universe as a Targaryen prince.
I think Sansa’s arc is about her becoming a political player. Her fairytale notions turned out to be her nightmare (not just vis a vis romantic love but kings, queens, knights, etc.) and as a lady (who meets all the social standards in abundance, who is comfortable in this role), as a girl who is decidedly not magical and doesn’t have combat skills, who is being used as a pawn, how does she get out of the dangerous situation she finds herself now in:
And I think this is meant to be Sansa’s arc, to gain agency and security for herself not through combat or magic, but via sharpening her mind and becoming that player to gain that control she never had before as a pawn.
And it does sort of seems like, in this scenario, Jon is an accessory to Sansa’s storyline instead of his own — wrapped up in the political situation of Westeros (which is more Sansa’s arc), as her consort, in a position he doesn’t want, and married to a girl he spent his life viewing as his sister.
I don’t think this ending for him really addresses the other themes of his storyline: uniting disparate peoples, commonality among all, the ideas of merit-based leadership, and the “otherness” about Jon (always the outsider wherever he is). Instead, it throws everything back into the original world order with Sansa in charge and Jon back into a classist system that was quite harsh on him. And this has little to do with the other side of this story: the Others and the mystical components there, which have made up Jon’s story and I think make up a lot of Jon’s purpose as the child of “ice and fire”.
Efi,
Family vs. duty is one of Jon’s conflicts, a big one, but I wouldn’t say it’s the core of Jon’s conflicts. I’d say it’s one of them. Jon’s conflicts also include romantic love vs. duty, neutrality vs. morality, ideals vs. his greater duty. And family vs. duty ended up causing a lot of problems when Jon chose family.
The Night’s Watch requires its men to put aside their family ties not to be cruel but so they are neutral and do not fight their family’s wars to the detriment of the Watch’s purpose.
While Jon’s options as a bastard were certainly limited, he did choose the Watch because it felt right to him but he had idealized notions about the Watch that didn’t line up with reality. Jon didn’t join the Watch to appease Catelyn. He joined the Watch because it was a place where he could earn his own honor and rise in the ranks, where he could be a hero as a ranger. Where he could do something important with his life.
And then Jeor Mormont wakes Jon up to the reality the south’s wars aren’t meant for them. They mean nothing if the threat beyond the Wall isn’t dealt with, and that shifts Jon’s focus northward where, eventually, he realizes they (the Westerosi and the wildlings) are all the realms of men regardless of allegiance, regardless of blood, regardless of birthplace.
Throughout his arc, Jon has connected with people from a variety of backgrounds, classes, ranks, places. He’s had Ned Stark, Jeor Mormont, Qhorin Halfhand, Maester Aemon, and Mance Rayder all as mentors with Stannis providing influence. And it’s Jon’s duty to unify them all against a common threat.
The positions of leadership he’s put into are chosen and Jon appreciates the merit-based system of the wildlings, trying again and again (in vain) to explain this to Stannis and Selyse — the wildlings choose their leaders. They don’t follow blood but the guy they themselves selected. At the end of ADWD, when Tormund’s band is passing south of the Wall, some of the wildlings pledge their weapons to Jon, though this makes Jon feel uneasy. And then they are the ones who volunteer to go with Jon when he declare he’ll march on Ramsay. Jon’s preference for the merit-based leadership system even reflects in the elective system of the Night’s Watch, where Jon knows he can rise despite his bastardy (the Watch’s own preference for nobleborns over commonborns notwithstanding as this element has the practical element of trueborns and nobleborn-bastards being educated).
Efi,
Sure but I don’t think his final place is Winterfell. It’s beyond that, I think it’s bigger than that. I think Jon’s arc goes beyond family and blood allegiance, beyond the politics of the realm. As I said above, Jon has him connecting with and uniting so many different people from all walks of life. He represents unity, having been the first in thousands and thousands of years to end an ancient feud. And I think that’s going to be more important than ever as the story moves forward. And Jon, himself, too is a misfit — not truly belonging to any one group.
I think Winterfell is one of the temptations he turns down — even when Jon thinks all of his siblings are gone, Jon still turns it down.
I believe the struggle between Jon’s moral instincts and his wolfish instincts will be another inner struggle for him and another set of cruel tests, as Adam Feldman proposed. He writes in this final piece of his Jon’s essay, “If [Jon’s] consciousness does become influenced by Ghost’s, and he hopes to hold true to himself, he will have to work hard to find a middle ground between his moral and wolfish instincts.”
Further, if Jon’s not such a good guy, I don’t know why anybody would want him as king, much less demand that he become king. If he’s a villain, how does that bring about peace and a better world? I’ve expressed why I think it would be pretty crappy if Jon died mid-arc and came back completely changed, this new iteration of himself, who’s not really himself, completing that arc. And how I think some of Jon’s current traits are needed for this fight to defend the realm. Not saying that he won’t be damaged, of course not, but I think some of Jon’s core qualities need to persist or … I think it’s pretty terrible storytelling.
Jon definitely knows he’s not playing by the book, it’s not his perspective that he is. He’s very aware of this, that’s what creates the inner conflict for him. He wants to be neutral but his desire to “set the worlds to rights” conflicts. He tried to be neutral when he tried to save Arya, but succumbed, he wrestled with himself when he decided to support Stannis, but succumbed.
Jon says the above quote because he doesn’t want to make anyone else break their “vows” (it’s not in their vows to stay neutral but neutrality is a very important stance of the Night’s Watch). Also, Jon says, “The crime is mine and mine alone.”
Jon didn’t do all he could to get Stannis to leave and Jon doesn’t help Stannis with his campaign to get Stannis to leave faster. Jon helped Stannis with his campaign because:
Stannis was leaving to march on the Dreadfort anyway. Jon was honest with Stannis, told him he can’t give him any more forts other than the Nightfort and Stannis begrudgingly accepted. Then Jon asks Stannis for help. Jon needs help defending the Wall, Stannis needs shelter at the Wall. (con’t)
Efi,
I do think Jon will be harsher, less patient, less forgiving, less willing to politely listen to what he views as BS, and he’ll probably want to punish those responsible for the mutiny quite harshly. Maybe Jon will be more determined/forceful in seeing through aims he feels are right. But I think Jon will still be a negotiator because forcing people to comply (as Jon knows with Stannis and the wildlings) is not exactly smart and will lead to trouble down the road (like uprisings, retaliations). It is better if both parties have something to gain through their agreement and both parties have something to lose if they break it.
As for everything else, it remains to be seen. I don’t think Jon becoming harsher or more wolfish necessarily translates into becoming a user (as Jon knows the value of a good truce and its chances for longterm success with both parties having something to gain/lose. In contrast, using somebody, especially somebody like Dany, is quite a bit more risky and Dany can be negotiated with — maybe a harsher Jon will have the tools to do so) — or that he’ll end up as more of a wolf than a man but I’d agree that those cruel tests and inner struggles aren’t over.
Yes, what you described would be very much a conflict and he’ll probably want to sway Daenerys. I don’t think the influence Ghost will have on Jon necessarily translates into him deciding he’ll be deceiving/forcing/using people for his own purposes ala Littlefinger, even if he loves them. It’s possible but this isn’t the only possible manifestation of the influence Ghost’s psyche could have on him — and if it is, I think Jon would use this on others (including his family if they object to his plans). But I’m hoping it doesn’t go that way because Jon’s arc has been much about being a negotiator, not somebody who forces people to his will — which is much like what some of the fandom criticize Daenerys for doing. One doesn’t have to be nice to negotiate well — as anybody who’s been in the company of lawyers know 🙂
I think Jon will have to work to find a middle ground between his instinct to save every innocent he can (ala Hardhome) and Ghost’s wolfish instincts. I think there will be a struggle between his moral instincts and the influence Ghost has on him if Jon’s consciousness goes into Ghost. But my hope is that Jon finds some way to hold on to himself and his core character, even if that self is impacted by the events of his assassination and its aftermath, so he’s recognizable as his character — but impacted.
I wanted to add that while some of his Night’s Watch brothers are becoming more and more concerned about what Jon is doing (some of their concerns are valid — helping Stannis risks the wrath of the Iron Throne, how do they feed everyone Jon wants to shelter — but some of their objections are down to prejudice) and I’ve no doubt the Westerosi (who already disdain Jon due to his bastardry) would hate Jon bringing the wildlings south, Tormund (who accuses Jon of having a black heart when he offers the deal) doesn’t view Jon negatively or as a villain. He’s clearly unhappy with the terms, Jon doesn’t love them either, but Tormund remains fond of Jon regardless (and Jon of him), declaring they’ll share meat and mead when his people are safe south of the Wall. They still have a solid, friendly, respectful rapport. Even some of the wildlings, those pledging their weapons to Jon, don’t view him as a villain and later, the wildlings are the ones who volunteer to follow him (rather than Jon’s own men).
In regard to Jon feeling he has the authority to make a deal with the wildlings — Jon is right here, this isn’t breaking any vows of the Night’s Watch. It’s the true purpose of the Night’s Watch — which is not to fight wildlings but to protect the realms of humanity, of which the wildlings are a part.
Sorry for not reading all the comments and discussion, I had a GoT viewing day, 3×03 now ^^ I finished all chapters that concerned season 3 of GoT so now I will watch.
Something catch my eye and I though I look things up and found a theory I pretty much think is the ending, and it also make clear why the Other’s can return and why Jon and some others are needed at the Wall, and the Wall needs to stay.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2xn64z/spoilers_all_the_grand_weirwood_conspiracy_we/
It makes pretty much Sense, the great Other = A big Weirwood tree in the heart of the winter. They send the Others, the CotF are in service of the Weirwood Trees. Things that could point to this being true is:
1. They say that the Old Gods/ Weirwood trees are only in the North, but every castle in Westeros has at least one Weirwood tree. And people who connect with it get visions like Jaime.
2. The Blackgate. I looked up more about the Weirwood being evil because of the Black Gate. A talking Weirwood, I think this is the most horrific scene in books.
3. What is the most dangereous for trees? Fire/ Dragons.
4. The White Walkers were gone for 8000 years. The trees were cut short but were not completely gone. As long as the weirwood trees exist WW can return. And I think this tree cannot be destroyed. Only contained with a Wall.
5. Back to book chapters. Bran’s last chapter. He warg in Hodor and walk inside the cave, and as World of Ice and Fire app states, in this cave Bran sees through hodor that there are more people sitting in the caves connected to the weirwood Net, some are death but Bran noticed that some are still alive. In that part of the cave there are many bones lying down.
6. Bran swallowed the weirwood tree seedpaste. He taste blood. That blood is his own is my guess, the seeds is growing inside his stomach.
7. A very important one, we are having feelings that we shouldn’t trust Mel’s visions. But what if we should trust them. She even admitted in SoS that the visions are true but the fault always lies with the interpreter. She blames herself in this. So what if it’s true that Bran and Bloodraven who she saw in her vision are becoming soldiers of the Great Other (=the big weirwood tree in Heart of Winter). And it also mean that her burning Weirwood trees is in fact a good thing.
8. So why could the Other’s return now? Because of Bloodraven. The weirwood trees grow stronger and can grown more the moment they consume humans. That’s why they want Bran, because Bran is one of the most powerful greenseer ever lived. They want his power.
9. What about the wall? If the Weirwood tree = evil is really true, the wall could be the barrier that hold the weirwood power at bay and that it can’t travel past the wall. Even when the roots are past the wall, the wall make sure they can’t use the power beyond the wall. Once the wall is down (Which my guess is will happen at the Nightfort in the books), Westeros is even more fucked. Their roots travel as far as the reach and the Stormlands. (Bran’s last chapter)
Aditional note: Whenever somebody get in touch with a weirwood many times it happen it dreams and they forget it once they wake up. But their actions later seems to be altered by what happened in the dream.
So what does this say about Azor Ahai Reborn? What if Azor Ahai Reborn is not the one too defeat the White Walkers, but in fact is suppose to go to the heart of Winter and destroy this big weirwood with his flaming sword? Maybe not completely but maybe enough that it loses it’s power for ca 8000 years.
Adrianacandle,
From Wiki.
“Upon the death of King Viserys I Targaryen, Prince Jacaerys Velaryon flew to Winterfell on his dragon Vermax to gain the support of the Starks and the north for his mother Rhaenyra Targaryen’s claim to the Iron Throne. The alliance, known as the Pact of Ice and Fire, stated that a Targaryen princess, the future firstborn daughter of Jacaerys, would marry his son Rickon. Cregan pledged his support to the blacks during the Dance of the Dragons. […]
Cregan held court at King’s Landing for six days, a time known as the Hour of the Wolf. Acting in the name of the eleven-year-old boy king Aegon III Targaryen, who named him Hand of the King, Cregan had twenty-two men arrested for the murder of Aegon II, among them Lord Larys Strong and Corlys Velaryon. Cregan Stark served as Hand for a day, presiding over the trials and executions. […]
King Aegon III Targaryen granted many rewards to Cregan, although a Targaryen princess never did marry into House Stark”.
kevin1989,
Thanks for the link, Kevin. I’ll give it a read 🙂
If Rhaegar did marry Lyanna (and I’m pretty sure they married), then this has been fulfilled and their child is “the song of ice and fire”. It can also be fulfilled via Sansa and Young Griff, if Young Griff is legit, or Dany and Jon, as Jon is half Stark.
But I still have my doubts that Jon would be believed as a Targaryen (re:the believability of R+L=J in universe), why the south would want Jon as their king, why the south would push for Sansa as queen, etc.
I’m also not sure why this would be needed now. As I explained above, if the North is struggling, the North needs the south more than the south needs the North. The south doesn’t really need the North as far as I can recall.
There’s also that I believe we got the endings of the main characters in the show (or at least the core 5) and I think the push toward a more progressive system is the idea rather than reverting to the old world order.
Adrianacandle,
“I think there’s still the issue of the other kingdoms.”
I don’t think it’s a matter of resources. It’s more a matter of connections. And after the war Dorne will have supported a false pretender, as it seems, they’ll be in no position to dictate terms.
“I’m not sure why the southern lords would demand he be king”.
It’s an option. Who would they make, Randyl? or one of the Tyrells? Or one of the Lannisters? Or one of the Freys? There surely are no legitimate Baratheons. But in this context it makes sense that Jon returns North, where he lays down his crown and retires.
“And I think this is meant to be Sansa’s arc, to gain agency and security for herself not through combat or magic, but via sharpening her mind and becoming that player to gain that control she never had before as a pawn.”
That’s even more bitter than what I’m suggesting, considering she never wanted such a role, she just has to learn it to survive.
“And it does sort of seems like, in this scenario, Jon is an accessory to Sansa’s storyline instead of his own”.
Funny thing, Dany stans think that it’s ok if Jon loves Daenerys, who will be much worse in the next book, and they want her feelings to be reciprocated, they want a romance for seeing “the conflict” in Jon’s heart (heaven forbid she has such a conflict, she’s the queen of queens), but seem not worried that that would make Jon Dany’s accessory. They did that in the show. How did that go?
“I don’t think this ending for him really addresses the other themes of his storyline: uniting disparate peoples, commonality among all, the ideas of merit-based leadership, and the “otherness” about Jon (always the outsider wherever he is).”
I don’t see how any kind of a happier ending for Jon would annul everything that he’s done for unity or fighting the Others. He’s fought enough, I think that at the end of the books he needs to rest; others can take over (Tyrion, anyone?). He also needs to belong somewhere, to stop being the “other”. Being confined to the same position is utterly bitter for his arc.
Efi,
But why would the south want the North? Why wouldn’t they let the North be independent?
Young Griff may not be a pretender and even if he was, Dorne is in a good position to make demands. They have a lot of the ofod the crown needs.
Or a Martell. Or a still-living Tyrell. Or Bran.
But it also makes sense to me, and to his arc, that Jon leaves Westeros. Based on GRRM’s inspiration from LoTR in regard to Frodo leaving the Shire after the pain and misery he experienced in Middle Earth, based on Jon’s arc, and based on actions that may happen in the story.
But it’s not about Sansa getting everything she wants, it’s about what makes sense for her story and if she does return home, that is something she wants. I haven’t seen anything say that she wants to marry Jon. And Sansa doesn’t have to be alone — she can still find somebody to marry and, as a leader, she’ll be in a position to decide who that will be. Jon’s not the only guy out there.
I’ve answered this before too (see above). I don’t think it’s about happiness or personal reward. I think it’s about the themes of these characters’ arcs. But to Jon, this might be a mercy (also as explained above).
Efi,
I have never said Dany deserves the throne above all else or that Jon should be blindly loyal to anything and everything she wants to do. I supported his assassination of her. I’m just not judging Dany for actions she has yet to take in the books. I need to read what she does before I come to any conclusions.
And while I think season 8 was not well written, had a variety of problems, and the latter seasons were rushed in regard to characters, I think the basic ideas are there. I think Jon will be more assertive in the books. I don’t think a romance between them means Jon has to be Dany’s lapdog. I also don’t think a more assertive Jon means that he’ll be using Dany for her dragons and armies and will marry Sansa.
On that note, I don’t believe in the alt narratives Jonerys is proposing (that Jon/Dany were given Jaime and Cersei’s storyline and they’ll rule as king and queen), no more than I believe the alt narratives Jonsa is proposing (that Jon was just using Dany to protect the Starks and Jon and Sansa will rule as king and queen). I think we got a very basic approximation of the story with the show.
I just don’t think ruling by either Dany’s side or Sansa’s side is Jon’s fate. It doesn’t seem like his story in either case. I never believed in the idea of a Targaryen restoration — for many of the same reasons I’ve shared with you here about why I don’t think it makes sense for the series to end with Jon and Sansa ruling as king and queen. Or Young Griff and Sansa. I think the ending is seeing a change in the system toward how leaders are chosen. And I believe Bran will be that king and it will make better sense in the books.
I’m going by what the showrunners have said because to me, that’s the canon. It’s always been that way for me in regard to any story. Their word is king to me. My hierarchy is showrunners/writers and then cast & crew.
A romance to makes sense to me for the reasons I’ve gone over above and in other threads. I think there is foundation in the main five books for it, Dany fans aren’t the only ones who have been speculating it’ll happen, I think it falls in line with Jon and Dany’s arcs, I think it falls in line with the themes of the series, and I think it’s meant to be a tragedy. But more than that, and I’m going to go to this well again, I think it’s heading in this direction because of comments made by a director of the show — who’s not a random Redditor or fan — who spoke with GRRM about his plans for Jon and Dany and he shared some of the comments GRRM made, which seems they’re heading in this direction.
I’ve also said it’s no guarantee. Yes, I feel there needs to be some weight and significance to their relationship beyond Dany and Jon being another pair of enemies, Jon using Dany to put the Starks on top. Parts of the story seems to be building up to their meeting.
As to “how did that go”? Well, Jon still killed Dany. Which is hardly the desire of Dany fans. But a romance still occurred. Yeah, Jon’s fallible and I think it’s reasonable he saw Dany as a queen to believe in, based on her actions, and that by the time feelings developed, he’s not going to want to kill her. Yes, I think this is very in-line with Jon’s inner struggles and it’s even crueler because it pits love for Dany against love for the Starks and duty to Dany as queen against duty to defend the realm/North/his Stark family.
I think this story had many problems in its execution but the basic ideas of it make sense to me.
Dany stans are livid with Jon. I’m not livid with Jon. It makes sense to me that after she went berserk and wanted to keep on killing, it makes sense that — when Dany refused mercy — he kills her. It also makes sense to me why he resisted until he saw Dany’s resolve that killing was the way to her utopia. No, I don’t like where the story went with Dany, I don’t love the idea of King Bran, I don’t enjoy Jon ending up in exile — but I can find sense behind these ideas. And I think, especially based on what has been shared came from GRRM, this is how the story is ending.
kevin1989,
That was a really entertaining read XD
And I, myself, have never truly trusted trees… Or the sun.
I do think AA is the one to defeat the Others per the prophecy of bringing the dawn against the darkness and while I don’t fully subscribe to the Evil Trees theory personally, it is very well laid out. And might have something to it. And will be in the back of my mind when I see references to the weirwood. Or the Old Gods. Goddamn.
This is also a wholly terrifying theory. Trees talking to each other via their roots (I’ve heard that before, from another story I think, but I can’t remember where…), that they feed off of blood, hearing the voices of the dead from their trunks, and what a weird world — lay your head on a weirwood stump, go to sleep, receive prophecies.
WEIRDwood.
Adrianacandle,
Well the thing is, I though let’s look up the word Weir, where it comes from. Martin has a way with words.
Weir comes from the word wer or were or werian.
Where werian was an old verb that means protect.
But wer- comes from the word man.
As many theories already suggest that weirwood contains a human soul (like warging).
What if the name comes from not only that it has a human face, but that there are really people in the trees. Look at the black gate, which contains a talking face. Not a single weirwood can do that south of the wall. And why do weirwood sap look like blood. And what did Bran see when inside Hodor. The bones in that hall, where he saw other’s like Bloodraven being alive inside the cave, connected to the weirwood network.
I think the trees are really dangerous and not to be trusted. But the question is why. Is it because the trees are the real danger, or is it that the Other’s can use the trees.
Or my other theory, what if humanity isn’t dealing with just one evil entity. What if there are 4 “gods” that need to be defeated. Fire (R’hlorr), Ice (White Walkers), Water (The drowned God) & Earth (The Weirwoods)
So I’ve just finish 3×06. Now time to go to bed. Tomorrow I will start 3×07 but a busier day. So I expect to finish season 3 on Friday. After that finishing of SoS.
I have to say I really like seeing book and show close together. The show is pretty close till now. There are changed that I’m fully behind here, like Thormund at the wall instead of the lord of Bones.
But after I finish SoS I think I will wait for season 5 till 8 till 2020. I will take a break with feast and Dance. So reading keeps interesting, instead of feeling like a choir.
I also started Chernobyl with my partner. Finish the first 2 episodes. And have to say, what a brilliant show. I can understand why this show is ranked 3rd on imdb with a 9,4 that means a combined first place with Band of Brothers and Breaking Bad. And I think people in Europe should watch this show. It shows how lucky we are that that Chernobyl disaster was contained. Europe would have looked much different now if it hadn’t.
kevin1989,
That’d be creepy af X_X!!! But there is very much an unsettling factor to the weirdwood already…
You’re right, GRRM does have a way with words and the weirdwood is weird… The description (white bark, red leaves) sounds quite beautiful but then you think how the leaves are blood red and the trees have faces…
I don’t know if they’re all evil-evil but there’s definitely something sinister about all of these religions, even the Faith of the Seven. There’s a strangeness to them.
I felt the show was adapted well in earlier seasons! But then again, books 1-3 were smaller and a little more straightforward, I think.
Oh man, that was such a good, good series. And terrifying.
Yes! I think we were all lucky, all around the world! If it made its way into the ground water…
Even teeny tiny amounts of radiation from Chernobyl were detected in Canada…
I forgot to say my favourite SFU character! Claire 🙂 I relate to her so much, especially her time in art school and her struggle to find out what she wants to do with her life.
Yes, Lisa’s story did end
Adrianacandle,
Agree about the weirwood.
And true first 3 books were maybe a bit more straightforward, especially with Bran. And the luck with SoS was that it contained 2 storylines per character, except Bran (which got 2 Dance chapters), And Arya which they invented an amazing storyline in season 4 for her. With Jon you can say that it was one big storyline, but the thing is that it contained 2 parts, with Ygritte, and he left her and we got to the battles. But that also showed me that they didn’t had a problem with stalling certain Storylines like Jon battle chapters were made in one big story in season 4, and with Arya they invented one great characterbuild season.
But I think what really had a problem with season 5 was: Daenerys, she was a fan-favorite. They wanted some action with her, especially with 2 seasons worth of action with her. Fans were addicted to that. What if season 5 only contained her struggle with peace vs ideals, that resulted in her marrying Hizdahr for peace? It would have been a pretty solid season, but there wouldn’t be any action.
Another was I think too many new characters, old characters you don’t have the build from the start, with new they need to make good introductions which is most difficult, there was no time for that.
Another is fantasy element that does seem to be in Dance but not explained yet.
And probably some other problems as well.
And yes Chernobyl is terrifying, and to think of it, I’m living in the Netherlands, and if they didn’t contain it we would have been on the zone that had lot’s of problems with the radiation, still inhabitable. But I also wonder now if the Tyroid problems that seems to be extreme high since 30 years is result of Chernobyl.
Claire was amazing, poor (gay)-boyfriend. I really dislike that teacher.
Yes that ending was harsch, especially who got the blame first.
kevin1989,
I think they really wanted action with every storyline and they added action sequences to many stories that weren’t in the books (ie. Sansa’s near rape in King’s Landing) because it plays better on TV than these long, involved storylines (like Dany’s in book 5 which many quite a few readers were frustrated with) Like you pointed out, much of Arya’s season 4 storyline was invented, in which quite a bit of action was added. Same with Jon.
Like the book 5 story with Jon, Dany’s was a complicated storyline that needed to be simplified and adapted for it’s complexity. With Jon’s, action sequences like Hardhome and battling the mutineers at Craster’s Keep was added. Arya’s road trip with the Hound was extended, adding quite a bit of action. Same with Brienne’s (Brienne vs. the Hound). A lot of season 4 also had to be invented because Tyrion, Jon, and Daenerys weren’t in AFFC so some stories were added — especially for Jon and Dany — or extended (like Arya’s). I don’t think this was limited to Dany because Dany’s a fan-favourite, I think it was about what played better on TV. Tyrion, Arya, and Jon are all fan favourites alongside Dany but I don’t think distilling storylines and adding action sequences are because of that. Action plays well on TV, especially at various intervals.
Yes, the Netherlands is far closer to Ukraine.
What kinds of problems do you mean? And you can probably look that up as they’d sure have done a study 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Typos!
*And you can probably look that up as *I’m sure they’d have done a study.
*With Jon’s, action sequences like Hardhome and battling the mutineers at Craster’s Keep *were added.
*Like Dany’s in book 5 which *quite a few readers were frustrated with
(I’ve been pretty tired over these last few days and have noticed I’m making errors like crazy — I’m also sorry for the other typos in my post(s), there are several T_T)
Adrianacandle,
Clarification:
When I said, “They added action sequences to many stories that weren’t in the books (ie. Sansa’s near rape in King’s Landing),” I meant that they showed some of these sequences (like Sansa’s) on-screen whereas in the books, these events happened off-page. During the riot in ACOK, Sansa is taken from her horse and isn’t seen again until the Hound returns with her. Sort of like with the wildlings in season 4. We see an additional raid on-screen (the attack on Olly’s village in season 4) that isn’t in the books and we see the various free folk factions come together to attack the Wall and we also see the sack of Mole’s Town on-screen. However, in ASOS when these events would occur (the free folk coming together and the sack of Mole’s Town are both referenced as having happened/happening rather than described as they’re happening), these action sequences do not take place in the books on-page because the POV character for those chapters in which these events happened aren’t there (Tyrion in Sansa’s case, Jon in the wildlings’ case).
However, some action sequences were invented for the show in the storylines of several characters.
Adrianacandle,
True, but for me Arya also had a lot of character moments in season 4. They added of course the Sandor scene, and the attack of Biter and Rorge. but also added 2 no-action episodes with her. The one with the father and daughter, and one where she is at the Vale.
But in the end what do people remember, character moments or action. I think many will remember character moments more. And I think that’s more interesting. Look for instance at LotR. The action is less than a quarter of the movies. There’s more character moments in.
And as for Tyroid problems, radiation can cause problems with it, can slow it down or make it faster, or other problems with Tyroids. Those problems did exist very long but last 30 years there are more cases of people having problems with their Tyroids.
Adrianacandle,
No worries, I understood it 😀
Adrianacandle,
I agree, but those are action sequence that:
1. Needed to be shown instead of read that they were happening. (Even when sometimes they decide not to show the action, like in season 2 when Deepwood Motte was attacked by the IB)
2. It was also connected to character moments. They were not only action. With Olly we understood directly what he felt. With Sansa in season 2 it was also necessary to show directly because of that we understood the Sansa / hound bond. But in season 5 till 8 there were also some unnecessary action sequences.
Look for instance at many high rated shows, many of them are very low on action, but high on character moments.
Oh, I see!! I’m sorry! At first I read “thyroid” because my eyes are so tired.
Game of Thrones has always been heavy on the action for most characters — it belongs to a genre that includes many battle/fight sequences as opposed to other genres popular shows fall into. A modern drama probably isn’t going to have characters sword fighting in the mud or gun fights (unless it’s that kind of drama). For instance, Six Feet Under belongs to another type of drama genre. As such, additional action sequences are not limited to Dany, and — like with Arya and Olly — there were also character/story reasons for including additional action sequences to her story as well. What ones do you find unnecessary?
Another thing is that in the series, Jon’s sword fighting skills are more greatly emphasized because it plays well on screen. As a result, in the show, he has more sword fights and duels (like the ones with Orell, Karl Tanner, and Styr).
kevin1989,
Do you mean thyroid after all? (Either way, I still — stupidly — didn’t recognize the link between the two because my mind blanked on thyroid cancer and focused on thyroid disorders like hyper/hypothyroidism instead.) It does look like Chernobyl is linked to thyroid cancer D:
Study Reveals Genetic Causes for Thyroid Cancer Increase after Chernobyl.
Adrianacandle,
It seems I made a mistake, I meant Thyroids, the thing in your body that regulate hormones.
I agree with Jon.
For me it’s more about scenes like: Brienne fighting Vale man in 5×01. Scenes like that, that serve only the purpose of having a action scene. Action scenes that contain character moments I like best.
And look back at season 1, that seasons contained little action. And by many still consider the best season of them all. People watch GoT for the drama mostly. The action feels great because the drama is done right before the action. They even cut short Tyrion battle in 1×09, And personally I had no problem with that.
kevin1989,
Right! And it makes sense Chernobyl would have an impact on anything cancer related due to mass amounts of radiation, traces of which reached even here in Canada.
That’s fair but people watch it for a variety of reasons — some for drama, some for action, some for battles, some for the schemes, some for nudity, some for the characters, and some for all of the above, etc. As you explain the reasoning for action sequences in other storylines, which I totally agree with, people can also make the same arguments for additional action sequences in Dany’s season 4/5 storylines too. AFFC was a tricky book to adapt because it was the other side of ADWD, absent three of the series’ most major characters (Tyrion, Jon, Dany), so they had to find stuff for them to do in the interim — before Dany became queen of Meereen, before Jon became Lord Commander, before Tyrion escapes across the Narrow Sea. As a result, quite a bit was invented.