The Gift and Hardhome: Geoffery and Nate in Conversation


Join Watchers Geoffery (Sullied) and Nate (Partly-Unsullied) in a synchronised re-watch of episodes seven and eight, “The Gift” and “Hardhome.”  This week, we decided to pare down our discussion and focus on some key themes of the season, namely Cersei’s downfall, Arya’s progression and the White Walkers.

07 – The Gift

Cersei 2

Nate: So, what did you think of ep. 7 before we go in?

Geoffery: Definitely better than ep. 6!  I liked it a lot, especially the ending.

Nate: Same! Loved Aemon’s scene.

Geoffery: Poor Aemon.  I was so sad to see him go!

Nate: Me too, and I really liked the emphasis on his Targaryen heritage, since I’m partly-Unsullied, I thought he was saying “Aeg.” [Editor’s note: Good ear! “Egg” is short for “Aegon,” Aemon’s little brother who became king. -Sue]

Geoffery: Really great nod to the books.  I love it when the show keeps in stuff like that, references to character’s lineages, etc.

Nate: That was the consensus I saw on Twitter.

At the Wall


Geoffery: Sam giving Jon his packed lunch there.

NateNow that I see that again, they didn’t use any dragonglass at Hardhome?

Geoffery: I don’t think so, because they left it in the hut when the wights attacked. There was a bit when Jon wanted to go back and get it, and then they were like, fuck the dragonglass, let’s leg it!

But more on dragonglass later! Meanwhile, in King’s Landing…

Olenna and HS

NateI loved this scene with the High Sparrow and Olenna because it does make her look a bit pompous. I love her but let’s not forget she’s still one of the many flawed highborn playing this Game of Thrones. Let’s not forget who put the poison in Joffrey’s drink! That being said, is the High Sparrow really seeking justice? Or does he have some sort of ulterior motive?

Geoffery: Lady Olenna is playing the Game but is the High Sparrow?  I think he probably enjoys being in a position of power even if he’s supposed to be pious and poverty-stricken.

Nate: Well it would give him a certain illusion of being absolved, but who would he be trying to further, then?

Geoffery: There are some weird theories about him out there.  Like that he’s

 Varys in disguise or his hair is concealing a glamour or that he’s actually Howland Reed.

Nate: That would be quite a twist.  But maybe he’s mysterious because he’s genuine? If he really is a man of the people then he would hate the Lannisters. Like when the mob attacked Joffrey, and called Tommen an abomination when he was at the Sept. So maybe he just got fed up with all the corruption and played the shit out of Cersei.

Geoffery: Like he allowed Cersei to raise him up so he could crush her.

NateExactly! He knew what he was doing


Geoffery: This Cersei scene, I spent all of it going, “Oh my god, oh my god,” under my breath ’cause I knew what was about to happen!

Nate: I was so immersed this episode, I loved it! “Look at me…look at my face….it’s the last thing you’ll see before you die!”

Geoffery: This end scene was far and away my favourite one of the series.  Possibly my favourite scene of the series.

Nate: Definitely one of the best this season, I’m not sure what my all time favorite. I really hope Cersei’s story ends at somewhat of a conclusion for her trial. I don’t want to wait until next season to see what happens to her.

08 – Hardhome


Nate: Before we go in, I absolutely loved the episode. I wasn’t expecting White Walkers at all. A chilling twist to the end.

Geoffery: Me too! Best one of the season!

Nate: I just read an article about how the show is a lot better about making the White Walkers a constant threat rather than the books which they aren’t in as much. I found it pretty interesting.

Geoffery: It’s kind of true, in the books they’re in the background and you tend to forget about them in lieu of the actual Iron Throne-sy conflict, but in the show they’re in your face causing havoc.

Nate: Good enough for me. I think they’re a great addition!

Geoffery: Winter is the main threat after all and the White Walkers embody Winter. Doesn’t really matter who wins the Throne in the end if Winter’s gonna destroy everyone. Didn’t Dany see a wintery throne room when she visits the House of the Undying? Foreshadowing!

And we’re off!


Nate: I absolutely loved that Cersei scene, small as it was. It was still very solid.

Geoffery: It’s so great to see Cersei like that.  We’ve had five seasons of her in power, manipulating but also kind of being out of control and now it’s all coming to a head.

Nate: And she can’t handle it. She’s rather manic in the way she swaps back and forth between desperation and rage.

Geoffery: Well this is it, she’s never had any real control and now she’s not even in a position where she can do anything to help herself.

Nate: Except completely disgrace herself and lose everything she’s worked, or I should say manipulated for.

Before the chilling chaos at Hardhome, we drop in on Braavos.

Nate: And before all the craziness of Hardhome, what are your thoughts on Arya so far?


Geoffery: I know some people think her storylines have been boring or slow this season, but I’m enjoying them! Great to have her shout her, “Cockles, muscles and clams,” line like in the books. I don’t know what people expected, that she’d be stabbing guys every other week? I like the way it’s going.

Nate: I do too! I think it brings a freshness to Season 5. She’s been rather stagnant since she left King’s Landing by having to stay in hiding but now she’s a bit more distant and free and she’s progressing towards getting that list finished which is exactly what she wants and makes sense since she’s in the Free City.

Geoffery: It’s just nice to see a character learning and progressing in a way that she wants!

Nate: Exactly! Plus, it’s pretty much a given that

she’s gonna stab Trant before this season ends so they’ll get what they want! Patience, people!

Geoffery: Yeaaaah! Trant death!

Nate: *Fingers crossed for Needle*

And as Winter finally arrives, we return to Hardhome:

Nate: Back to Hardhome! That wall of frost! My brother was immediately like, “WHAT? WHITE WALKERS!” I scoffed at him like there’s no way they’re just gonna have White Walkers show up…and then I ate my words. I think they sort of did it that way, though! It was so unexpected and then suddenly, bam! A huge army of wights.

Geoffery:  It was amazing! I’ve been saying all season they’ve been playing it too safe in terms of original material (like having Brienne just sort of hang around outside Winterfell) and then SUDDENLY A LITERAL TON OF WIGHTS! If you’re gonna have a big fucking made-up battle, that’s the way to do it!

Nate: Exactly! I mean, why not? It goes back to what we said before, we need that reminder that they’re a real threat. It was so epic, I loved every minute.

Geoffery: And I’m glad they included Wun Wun the Giant!

Nate: Me too! “The fuck you looking at?” And he kicked ass.

Geoffery:  I’m so glad Dolorous Edd didn’t cop it like some people predicted he would.


Nate: The White Walker was a nice contrast of ice/fire. I really do love when they do things like that. It’s a nice homage to the title of the series.  (Another example I liked was burning Aemon while it snowed.)

This was definitely one of Jon’s better fights.

Geoffery: Yes I love it when Jon has a chance to cut loose. Also, Valyrian Steel!

Nate: YES! I really loved the look on the White Walker’s face! Nice shared surprise between the two.WW fight

Geoffery:  The steel is going to become important next series, I think.

Nate: Oh yeah, definitely! Which means those who have Valyrian blades are going to need to hold onto them! But also, in the spirit of ice and fire, if dragonglass affects the Walkers, I think it’s pretty safe to say that dragon fire would too, so Dany, help the brothers out!

Geoffery: Yeah, get on it, Dany! Do you know who has all the Valyrian steel swords, by the way?

Nate: I think so. Most of them, at least. Brienne, Tommen, Jon, right? Brienne and Tommen have both halves of Ice.

Geoffery: There are others.

Nate: I know Tyrion’s dagger was also.

Geoffery: Tyrion’s dagger was, yes. I’m just saying, no spoilers obviously, but I think the show might go further into plots involving the other swords now that they’ve shown onscreen that they can kill White Walkers.

Nate: Next season will probably be rather White Walker-heavy though, given it’s based on Winds of Winter so hopefully we’ll get some history on who exactly they were. I know it’s pretty certain who the leader with the ice crown was but the bearded one Jon killed? And the one we’ve seen leading the pack?

And will we ever find out what happened to Benjen Stark?!

Geoffery: Ah, the Benjen Stark theories. I personally wish the show had kept in Coldhands.

Nate: Yes! That’s the consensus I’ve seen via social media. But since I don’t know who that is, it’s lost on me.


 Coldhands popped up in Bran and Samwell’s storylines in the books, but he’s cut from the show. And he’s NOT Benjen Stark, GRRM made a statement. But he still didn’t say who Benjen Stark was, just who he wasn’t, so let your imagination run riot. 

Nate: Yeah, I saw an article that questioned whether or not the Walkers are even “evil” or not because it’s not really clear that they are. I don’t know, I thought it was pretty clear that they’re all about Winter and death.

Geoffery: They’re more of an elemental force than emotional or evil, in my interpretation.

Nate: Yeah, I can see that. Unless the Night’s King does have some motive. Maybe a vendetta against The Watch? I smell another flashback!

And we’ll leave that question for the readers! What did you think of The Gift and Hardhome? Let us know in the comments below!


  1. Rygar,

    503 was great too…the scene where Jon executes Janos was perfectly shot…my favorite shots being Jon finishing his cup of ale and the shot of him walking down the steps and taking Long Claw from Olly…EPIC.

  2. HelloThere,

    Agreed. And ALL of Winterfell. Those four actors together is simply amazing and we are fortunate that we have those scenes.

    I didnt care for Dany and Tyrion although I love the way Dinklage twitches his fingers when Dany takes away his wine. I thought they were both meh otherwise. Their best scene was with Jorah and his raw emotion in that scene stole it.

  3. Nate: Yeah, I saw an article that questioned whether or not the Walkers are even “evil” or not because it’s not really clear that they are. I don’t know, I thought it was pretty clear that they’re all about Winter and death.

    It’s not a matter of WW evilness, it’s about surviving ‘n advancing. WW are dependent on the human race. They need humans to survive, dead ones to form their army, ‘n to conquest the living ones, the latter to ‘reproduce’ WW nation. Humans can reproduce sexually, WW can’t. However they can reproduce asexually by transforming human babies into WW. It seems most of WW were humans once, now they’re creatures that possess magical powers, yet they are not invincible, ‘n immortal. Obviously the magic can’t protect them from being hurt by any cold weapon that’s made from Valyrian steel or dragon-glass.

  4. Uknow.0,

    How do you know they cant get their freak on with each other? If you say they were humans once then tjey SO must be banging. They just need some WW bitches up in there.

  5. Uknow.0,

    Nah, they still be hitting the WW butt. Eventually one will say, hey Darth Maul sans makeup, why dont you try that shit on female babies….

  6. Can anyone tell me why KING Tommen can’t just raid the Sept of Baelor to get his mom and his wife out and have the High Sparrow executed?

    I know that the Faith Militant has been re-established by Cersei but they’re more armed mob than a proper army or even trained security force. Let’s put it this way- was anybody afraid of Lancel Lannister BEFORE he carved dreck on his forehead? I know, I know- he’s a trained combatant. But he’s not exactly an elite. Tommen has Lannister soldiers, the Whitecloaks AND the Kingsguard at his disposal. This shouldn’t even be a contest.

    And I know that Kevan Lannister isn’t exactly on “Team Cersei” but he can’t love the idea of a religious organization imprisoning the Queen and Queen Regent of the realm. I would imagine that as Hand, he’d put an end to these shenanigans really quick. Even IF Tommen has nothing to do with it, he’d clearly support any efforts to rid himself of the High Sparrow and his religious goon squad.

    Am I missing something here? Are the Lannisters so weakened by the death of Tywin that they can’t prevent this from happening? This lack of internal show logic is ruining for me what are otherwise fantastic performances by Headey et al at Kings Landing.

  7. Dram:
    Can anyone tell me why KING Tommen can’t just raid the Sept of Baelor to get his mom and his wife out and have the High Sparrow executed?

    He wanted to when Marge was first imprisoned.

    Cersei told him that if he tried that the Sparrows would kill Marge rather than let her be freed.

    Now IMO it’s unlikely they would have but Tommen certainly believed they would and now it’s his Mother and Wife being held by them.

    Nate: I know Tyrion’s dagger was also.

    Geoffery: Tyrion’s dagger was, yes.

    The dagger was never Tyrion’s

  8. Dram: Can anyone tell me why KING Tommen can’t just raid the Sept of Baelor to get his mom and his wife out and have the High Sparrow executed?
    ….. Am I missing something here?

    Only history lessons! When the Crown takes on the Church, the Crown is not guaranteed victory. Basically, this almost certainly lead to popular uprising, as the High Sparrow warns Olenna.

    Moreover, there really is strength in numbers, particularly if you are fighting in close quarters. Would the Faith Militant be able to stand against full Lannister forces on an open field? Probably not. However, would they stand up to them in guerilla fighting in the streets where horses are as much hindrance than a help, and where pole-weapons and bows are much less effective? Almost certainly: “properly” trained soldiers would be at a huge disadvantage there. Add to this that many of the Goldcloaks and Lannister soldiers might well throw in with the mobs (as the HIgh Sparrow warned Olenna), and it’s the opposite of what you envision: a route in favor of the Sparrows.

    And, as Cersei correctly notes, the first casualties would be Margaery and (now) Cersei.

    One thing that the books make more clear than do the shows is that everyone else is aghast that Cersei would be so stupid as to let the Faith Militant rearm just to solve her immediate problems: and even more stupid to try to use them to deal with Margaery. The Mob Army was forbidden years before for very good reasons.

    Conan: Now IMO it’s unlikely they would have but Tommen certainly believed they would and now it’s his Mother and Wife being held by them.

    Of course the Faith Militant would kill them: sinners must get their punishment, after all. And if they are innocent? Well, then the Father will judge them kindly in a better world….

  9. Rygar,

    LF was lying about who owned the dagger in order to stir up the pot. This is part of the mystery of what LF’s motives are: he clearly has been stirring things up from the word “go.”

  10. Rygar,

    Yeah that doesn’t do it for me. No one is expecting the kid to go in there guns a blazing himself but all he has to do is say- “I never authorized this- my mother as Queen Regent was acting on her own. Now go kill every Faith Militant you can find. That’s an order.”

    And it’s not like the High Sparrow is going to kill Cersei and Margery if he feels threatened. At least that doesn’t seem like it would be in character for what we know about him so far. They’re a religious order at the end of the day dedicated to perceived notions of the gods’ justice and whatever you might want to say about them, they’d need to have some sort of “trial” beforehand. To my knowledge, neither of them are standing trial for their lives anyhow. It’s not like they’re hostages- they’re just prisoners standing trial.

    I’ve read the books and I think maybe the context was better explained or at least how many Sparrows had infiltrated Kings Landing was really clearly laid out in terms of pure numbers. In the TV version all we get is the High Sparrow saying something to Lady Ollena about how “we are the many, you the few”.

    I forget how exactly this was approached in the books but it seemed like it was much better explained how something like this could happen. Do you remember how it was approached in the books?

  11. Ashara Dayne,

    No, she’d peddling steroids on the side. There is a huge scandal involving PEDS in the Slave Fighting pits that’s just hitting Essosian press now.

  12. Dram: At least that doesn’t seem like it would be in character for what we know about him so far.

    He’s being portrayed as a religious fanatic. So, I’d say that it is very much in his character.

    And, again, you seem to think that this would be an easy victory for the traditional forces. It would be anything but that: in fact, the odds would be very much in the Sparrows’ favor.

    Dram: I forget how exactly this was approached in the books but it seemed like it was much better explained how something like this could happen. Do you remember how it was approached in the books?

    In the books, it is made pretty clear that other people think that Cersei is a fool for unleashing the Faith Militant again. Evidently, it took the Targaryens quite a bit of work to suppress them the first time around. Cersei didn’t know that: she assumed that they’d just be a bunch of easily controlled rabble. Whoops…..

    At any rate, after Cersei’s incarceration, the people left in charge do not attempt this because they know that it would cause popular uprisings and even lead the Faith to denounce Tommen. So, even if they succeeded for the day, then it would cause them to fail in the long term. What they say is not dissimilar to what Cersei tells Tommen.

  13. Dram,

    People aren’t rash and stupid to lead a charge against the faith. This is a legal Military branch of the church headlined by the Pope.

    Causing death and destruction in the great Sept of Baelor is not something the people left in charge will do lightly. And doing something like that would lead to more insurrections and rebellions.

    Plus no one really cares about Cersei

    They get Margaery off the hook really easily
  14. HelloThere,

    That’s basically my understanding, too, except that

    Margaery is not off the hook! And now that Varys has removed two of Cersei’s major restraints, I am betting that Margaery is not going to get off. This will probably lead to Tommen’s golden shroud and Myrcelle’s temporary golden crown.
  15. Whenever D&D make big changes to storylines, they should always toss in little book references to make book fans happy. The change from Cat to Lana was a little annoying, but the shot of the cat at the moment she mentions the canals made up for it.

    I wish Sansa would have been given some of the Hooded Man’s lines. I also wish they had a shot of Jon sleeping along the way to Hardhome with only the whites of his eyes showing. Cut to Gilly’s attack & Ghost coming in to save Sam. I guess ain’t nobody got time for that. I’m still going to assume Jon was getting his warg on.

  16. Rygritte: I’m still going to assume Jon was getting his warg on.

    But that would be inconsistent with the books! There,

    Jon only has wolf dreams: he never can consciously transfer to Ghost or other animals the way that Bran can. Arya seems to be more intermediate: she embraces her wolf-dreams much more than does Jon, and she is able to jump into a cat at one point.

    And, um: who is the “hooded man?” Is that another Crows character that I refuse to remember?

  17. Wimsey,

    Yea, but they let her out of the dungeon. Its even shown in a trailer. We see a shot of Tommen hugging Margaery that hasn’t aired yet. SHe still has a trial, but the HS acknowledges the charges against her are weak
  18. Uknow.0,

    Remember the Night’s Queen? Definitely a WW female. She must’ve been quite attractive too, I can see it.

  19. Conan,

    Meh, Littlefinger claimed it was but he was lying. No big. Either way I don’t think the dagger is going to stop the White-Walker Apocalypse.

  20. HelloThere,

    Wait, how does the HS acknowledge that

    the charges against Margaery are weak? His only comment seemed to be that it does not matter if Olenna believes that lying to protect a family member is honorable, his holy books states that it is a sin that must be punished.

    Sue the Fury: Either way I don’t think the dagger is going to stop the White-Walker Apocalypse.

    I suspect that stocking up on Valyrian steel isn’t going to be the solution here, either. Martin is not Tolkien!

  21. 5×03 was really good, too. As was 5×05; Bryan Cogman’s masterstroke of the season. And really, that’s half the season thus far, then — 3, 5, 7, and 8. Not bad at all. I don’t even think there’s been a bad episode, but if I had to pick one it’d be either of the first two hours, not 5×06 (which I can tell will go down in Thrones history as one of the worst). Oh well.

    Tommen is just building up his proverbial limit break, folks. He’s going to take Widow’s Wail to a whole score of White Walkers, all that pent-up rage at his alleged inadequacies, all those insults flung at his footsteps, reaching their boiling point. The lion’s fire. The wail of widows. A dream of spring[ing into action. Like a lion. That’s damned prophetic.] 2017 book it.

  22. Would anyone please explain to me exactly what seems to be everyones problem with episode 6 ‘unbowed, unbowed, unbroken’. There’s so much negativity towards that episode. I can only understand it regarding the dorne stuff because Kings Landing (culminating with the trial), Arya (culminating with the hall of faces) and Sansa (culminating with the wedding night rape) was all powerful stuff and very true to the shows atmosphere. To me, it’s the best ep of the season after Hardhome.

  23. I actually don’t think Melisandre will

    go back to The Wall. She has stuff to do this episode (5×09) and if she returns to The Wall in the finale that’s quite fast with all the snow and difficulties to travel. If she really needed to be at CB I don’t think D&D would have send her along with Stannis in the first place. What about FTW then? Well maybe I’m one of the few but I actually fear that Jon really dies and won’t be resurrected. If you look at it from the books perspective it would be a little overkill to bring back two “Starks” to life.
  24. Damphairintheshowplease!:
    Would anyone please explain to me exactly what seems to be everyones problem with episode 6 ‘unbowed, unbowed, unbroken’. There’s so much negativity towards that episode. I can only understand it regarding the dorne stuff because Kings Landing (culminating with the trial), Arya (culminating with the hall of faces) and Sansa (culminating with the wedding night rape) was all powerful stuff and very true to the shows atmosphere. To me, it’s the best ep of the season after Hardhome.

    In my estimation it’s a combination of fans feeling let down with Dorne and a fair number of viewers at-large being enraged or just generally off-put by the ending.

    The trial at King’s Landing was great and Arya’s arc hit its current peak this year, IMO. All told, that’s enough for me to label it a decently strong ep. Then again, I didn’t even hate the Dorne scene… maybe it’s because I’ve watched so many lower-budget shows on channels like SyFy, but it only barely registered with me how poorly-choreographed that was until I saw people complaining afterward. The Sansa thing was… no, nevermind, I’m not going to say anything good or bad. Let’s let it rest, haha.

  25. HelloThere,

    Ah, if so, then I do not remember that. My memory is of Kevan

    thinking that for all the Tyrell’s protestations that the case against their daughter was weak, the fact that they basically had an army ready to besiege Kings Landing suggested that they thought differently.

    I remember thinking that the book HS was your classic religious zealot who saw guilt pretty much everywhere. However that was 10 year ago that I read Crows!

  26. Wimsey,

    from the ASOIAF wiki:

    Since the evidence against Margaery and her cousins is weak, the Faith releases Margaery and her cousins to the custody of Randyll Tarly until the day of her trial. Margaery chooses to be tried by judges of the Faith instead of trial by battle.
  27. Wimsey,

    Ok, this all makes good sense but there’s not been one conversation to this effect in the TV show. In two medium sized posts there was more justification for why Tommen can’t do this than in the entire season so far.

    It just seems like before Cersei or Margaery stand trial there needs to be a High Counsel scene with Kevan, Pycell, Tommen and maybe even the High Sparrow to hash through some of these realities that sets the stage for what comes next- I don’t believe this has been very well explained in the show so far and it seems like it keeps coming up for the TV show viewers I know that haven’t read the books.

  28. I liked both of his episodes and I think Director Miguel Sapochnik did a terrific job

    I hope he comes back for season 6 or 7

    He deserves a lot a credit for getting the show back on track after the huge controversy and backlash from episode 6

    his episodes was “The Gift” this season really needed lol

  29. Damphairintheshowplease!,

    To tell you to truth if they had removed that controversial scene
    episode 6 would have just been one of those forgettable Game of thrones episodes

    it was ok but nothing special and the Dorne scenes were poor but overall It was still a decent episode

    unfortunately they added that controversial scene and that is mainly where all of the hate for that episode is coming from

  30. Damphairintheshowplease!,

    The hatred is mainly about the Sansa scene which closes the episode. It made a lot of people very angry and it wasn’t just book purists. There was also a campaign to rate the episode down in IMDB and other equally weird stuff.

  31. I’m wondering if The Night’s Queen will appear eventually and what she will look like.

  32. Jeff O’Connor,

    Yeah, me too. I didn’t hate Dorne in that episode, and I too actually enjoyed the b-movie kind of take on the sandsnakes and that Whole sequence. In my mind Thrones was always a show in the line of Xena and those shows, just miles and miles deeper! So it’s fine with me, that those elements are in.
    Regarding Sansa’s wedding night, most of the complaints seem illogical to me. If your’e a book-reader you can say ‘oh well I enjoyed the Jeyne Pool storyline way more’ and that’s a legitimate argument. But most people seem to actually be completely okay with Sansa in Winterfell by now, but they still detest that scene. Why? Whats wrong with it? If she was gonna marry Ramsay, inevitably she was gonna have a wedding night. And inevitably that wedding night with Ramsay would a terrible, terrible experience. That’s what they showed us. I just don’t get it. That scene to me is one of the shows most powerful (in a Red Wedding-kind of powerful way). A true Game Of Thrones moment!

  33. rex,

    Sapochnik’s two episodes were also the first ones written by D&D in a few weeks, too, since Episode 3, I think.

  34. rex,

    Yeah I guess it’s controversial. But within the story it makes sense, so to me ‘controversial’ isn’t really an argument for not liking the scene. A legitimate argument would have been ‘They made it more violent that it needed in order to shock people.’ But thats not really what poeple complain about. They complain the very inclusion of the scene. Which, now when Sansa is actually in Winterfell and getting married to Ramsay, that’s just not logical complaint. ‘It repulsed me’ would be a true statement in most cases, but so did the Red Wedding. Is it because it’s rape? Because the complaints are, in my opinion very similiar to last years ‘Oathkeeper’. We can’t pick and choose between awful Things. We cant say, stabbing a pregnant woman in the stomach is fine, but Ramsay raping Sansa is not. It’s a harsh, patriarcal society, that they’re depicting! Enough of the rape complaints, because as I mentioned, regarding the story it’s an ilogical complaint. If Sansas had been in Winterfell, married to Ramsay and somehow managed to not get herself raped, THAT would be a mistake! That would make us think, how come this monster of a man, WHO we have seen be absoultely terrible to everyone else, how come he get’s his new bride a pass? That would have been D&D trying to avoid being controversial, which is just as bad for a story as adding something only for shock effect. They did the right thing!

  35. We don’t even know if FTW in the books

    is actually the death of Jon, right? So him surviving in the show wouldn’t even necessarily be a change. I was thinking Jon would be killed and resurrected to get him away from the wall (like, released from his vows with the performative utterance: “and now his watch is ended”) so it can crumble down without taking him. But it does feel early, given 2 more seasons, to pull him away. Maybe he is injured and a wildling he just saved has some mad healing skills. Maybe she’s a redhead!

    Mods, I’ve said it before: You should have the spoiler instructions at the point of posting. After the first couple comments it’s not within sight while people are posting.

  36. Damphairintheshowplease!,

    I suspect there’s a quite a lot of people who think like you (and me); it’s just that their voices have been drowned by Sansagate. I’ve rewatched 5×06 in the meantime and I can definitely say that it’s a pretty good episode. Dorne is weak sauce, sure, but thankfully that’s only 5-6 minutes. I thought everything else was very strong. If I may be so bold, I’d say that Sansa’s wedding is one of my favourite scenes of the season, straight out of a dark fairytale: music, costumes, lighting, directing, Sophie’s and Alfie’s performances. Eerie and beautiful.

  37. Mr Fixit,

    YEAH MAN!!! As I said earlier, s5e6 is my favorite of the season after Hardhome. And I too have that scene as one of my favorite in the show. Sansa’s Whole arc is a Disney Princess’s dark nightmare! And that Whole sequence was an almost beatiful palet of darkness and despair!

  38. Rygar:

    Nah, they still be hitting the WW butt.Eventually one will say, hey Darth Maul sans makeup, why dont you try that shit on female babies….

    Probably a reason Craster only gave his male sons, they can only transform males as we say in S4

    Given the Night’s King legend goes on about a female WW, there do seem to be females

    There’s an interesting theory about a 3-tier caste to the WW, which I buy into. I would guess there is a female upper caste tier we haven’t seen yet in books or show, then a male WW caste who do most of the field work, the Night’s King seems to be a General more than a political leader IMO and then there’s the Wight’s which are just dead bodies magically wielded (they aren’t zombies in that they aren’t being re-spawned on their own volition ala a zombie virus as in zombie shows)

    What fascinates me about Coldhands is that it seems the Greenseers (maybe CoTF) may have this ability, an excellent comparison between Bloodraven (Fire) and Night’s King (presumably Stark and Ice) where both were LC of the NW, not surprising that Bloodraven chose a dead member of the NW to be his (and now Brans) Wight

    No doubt a lot of people would like to see a slice of Coldhands made out of the Karsi character but doubt that would happen

  39. Mr Fixit,

    I agree, it’s one of my 10 favourite scenes of the season so far. It is very, very disturbing, sure, but it felt like a classic Game of Thrones scene that has the power to move people.

    I also don’t see how the tune suddenly changed from “great season!” after the first 5 to “problematic and uneven season” after simply one episode (episode 6). I think that the critics and the fans were way too reactionary after that one scene.

  40. Off-Topic Otto

    I’m kind of hoping FTW surprises people and involves Jon just being badly wounded, blacking out, and being healed back to health by Mel. I don’t believe in the death/resurrection idea. In fact after all the progress he’s made as a leader (‘kill the boy’ etc) this season it would feel wrong that he has to go through that to somehow become better or more important which – maybe I’m wrong – seems to be a commonly-held idea.
  41. HelloThere,

    HelloThere is correct. Though Wimsey is correct about the High Sparrow being a genuine fanatic as far as we know.

    In the books, when Kevan visits Cersei in her cell, which we will presumably see next week, Kevan tells Cersei that the High Sparrow admitted to him that the case against Margaery is weak. Those were his exact words.

    In fact, in the next chapter, in which Cersei decides to confess, one of the Septas lets it slip (until Septa Unella shuts her up) that Margaery has been freed, though confined to the Red Keep until her trial, thanks to Randyll’s pressures and the weakness of the case.
  42. Valyrian steel for the WW, dragon fire for the wights(but I dont want Dany to save the day riding Drogon)

    And WILDFIRE!?

    Tyrion could inventively use wildfire to kill the wights.

    AND if tommen goes there to fight with his valyrian steel And dies, Cersei will burn their cities to the ground.

  43. Chekhov’sOlly,

    Maybe she died. When the King-Beyond-the-Wall and the Starks united to bring down the Night’s King and the Night’s Queen’s reign of terror in the Nightfort, they supposedly defeated and executed them both. Now, obviously, this is not entirely true, as the Night’s King is alive. But maybe the Night’s Queen did die?

  44. Myranda will surely have some small yet key role in the next couple of episodes. Who does she want to hurt/hinder more, Ramsay or Sansa?

  45. bristolcity:

    I also don’t see how the tune suddenly changed from “great season!” after the first 5 to “problematic and uneven season” after simply one episode (episode 6).

    One word: bandwagoning.

    Sexual violence is currently a hot sociopolitical topic. At the same time, GoT is a ratings juggernaut, one that many would like to see cast down (typical when a pop-culture phenomenon explodes in popularity). When the first meets the second, “perspective realignment” often follows, with quite a few people using the moment to either a) score points for being socially progressive on them interwebz or b) indulging in a bit of self-congratulation.

  46. Mr Fixit: Sexual violence is currently a hot sociopolitical topic.

    It seems that a bit of the criticism was based on hearsay rather than viewing: it seems that some people were under the impression that it was used to get the actress out of her clothes. However, as that part wasn’t shown, it wasn’t.

    But the sociopolitical context was unavoidable. In the US at least, there has been a great deal of debate about what is and is not rape, not for it’s own sake, but in connection to abortion rights. US conservatives desperately want to outlaw abortion and narrowly redefine “rape” so that exceptions for sexual assault would be extremely limited. So, it probably is not coincidental that they used this and Loras’ incarceration for being gay (also a sociopolitical hot button) to show how “bad guys” behave. (Ramsay and the High Sparrow would be tea-party favorites in the US!)

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