Sophie Turner teases a new kind of fight for Sansa in season 8 — and an air date!

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In season seven, Sansa killed the last vestiges of her old world of court machinations. So what’s her role going to be in the final season? And when is it coming anyway? With two months of it filmed already, Sophie Turner sat with Variety to speak of this and more.

Things are going to be different for Sansa now that Littlefinger is gone, but that doesn’t mean it will get any easier for her: “It’s going to be tricky for her, because at the end of last season, she felt that she had everything set up. She had her family back together. They were in control of the North again,” Turner recaps, before looking to the future: “This season, there’s a new threat, and all of a sudden she finds herself somewhat back in the deep end. And without Littlefinger, it’s a test for her of whether she can get through it. It’s a big challenge for her, without this master manipulator having her back.”

Littlefinger may have been a perfidious snake and Sansa is undoubtedly safer in the long run for having gotten rid of him, but at the same time he was her mentor for many years, so her doubts make sense. How will she fare without him whispering in her ear? In a way, Sansa’s arc concluded when she secured Winterfell for the Starks and had Baelish executed, so it’s a bit difficult to predict what’s coming next for her. Turner promises a very different kind of conflict for Sansa, which is intriguing: “This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight,” she tells Variety.

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There is drama behind the scenes, too, as this adventure comes to an end: “When we all had the read-through for the final season, it was very, very emotional,” Turner admits. “For the first time in Thrones history, we had everyone there. All of the Americans wanted to come over. Every single cast member was pretty much there. We’re all kind of feeling the end of it coming. We’re all staying in town a little longer, going out for more meals, trying to get together more. We’re all trying not to take it for granted any more.”

Finally, when asked about her excitement for Game of Thrones season eight and her new X-Men film to premiere, the actress casually drops what we all pretty much already knew, but seems to be confirmed now: “Game of Thrones comes out in 2019.”

You can read the entire interview, in which Turner also discusses her favorite and most challenging moments of season seven, and X-Men: Dark Phoenix, at Variety.

220 responses

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    1. A guess doesn’t seem like a spoiler – but….release date guess. Give or take a week.

      2/11/19 as start date – the middle of winter leading up to the first day of spring as the end

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    2. firstone,

      You’ve been saying this for the last 2 years. It’s always either Mother’s Day or Father’s Day. It’s the last season now, so it’s your last chance to be right, though that seems awfully late in 2019 for a start date. I suppose you never know though.

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    3. This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight,”

      This will give hope to Jonsa shippers.

      STOP IT SOPHIE!

      You do not know what you have unleashed on us, mere expectators

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    4. It is very hard to predict her storyline in S8, it really did feel like her story wrapped up. Sansa is purely political so what can she really do in a fight against a enemy that doesn’t speak. She’d be far more useful against Cersei but going from her comments to Brienne last season she doesn’t intend on leaving Winterfell, so I really can’t say what she’ll be doing at all.

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    5. Since they were going to train every man, woman, and child to fight last season I was hoping maybe this meant Sansa as well (plus Lyanna Mormont, oh my would that be great!) Not that she’d suddenly be this great fighter but if they’re even training children than I figured maybe we’ll see her getting trained in season 8. But then again maybe there isn’t even time left for them to do that with so many battles about to happen. As for the release date I hoping it’s early 2019 at least.

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    6. Priscila: This will give hope to Jonsa shippers.

      STOP IT SOPHIE!

      You do not know what you have unleashed on us, mere expectators

      That will not happen..because Danny will STAY PREGNANT WITH JONS SON..and Jon will stay with his wife and son until the end..SANSA WILL SURELY DIE and that will be a surprising/shockingly death..because nobody expects her to die..so its sure

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    7. I just don’t understand how anyone in Westeros, especially in the North, would have time to play politics or any type of game when dead corpses and ice creatures are coming to kill you and they now have a dragon on their side. I mean Sansa who would you try to manipulate? And why? I guess in my head I kind of imagine the invasion of the walkers as something chaotic and sinister, something that forces people to flee, fight or die. To live on instinct, a reactionary type of survival which leaves zero time for side games.

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    8. Depending on how much HBO is catering to the US market, I suspect that they will clearly not start till after Superbowl. But NCAA March Madness begins mid March. So, if they could squeeze 6 episodes in between those sports events it could be February 2019. Most likely, I see it happening early April 2019 unless HBO has other scheduling conflicts.

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    9. Why are people assuming the only part of politics is lying and tricking people?

      Leading Winterfell, it’s supplies, people and her allies (Vale) is going to make her one of the most important people in the season lol.

      The North and Vale are going to go ape shit at Jon.

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    10. BeardedOnion,

      Which is incredibly stupid on their part. There’s no time to go ape shit on anyone, other than the walkers. I want to see the faces of all these people when they come face to face with a wight, let’s see if they have time to bitch about wildlings invaders or dragon invaders. Basically, in all honesty Westeros stands no chance without Drogon and Rhaegal so they will have to swallow any misgivings they have rather quickly or else I vote for Jon and Daenerys to hop on those dragons and ride away leaving the rest to their fate.

      I think people like Sansa and Tyrion will be more valuable after the war for the dawn is won (if it is), not so much during. It is not a conventional war, the enemy is not human, you can’t hide in castles for long. It’s the type of war that requires the Jons, Jamies, Aryas, Briennes and Meeras of the world.

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    11. Danny:
      I think people like Sansa and Tyrion will be more valuable after the war for the dawn is won (if it is), not so much during. It is not a conventional war, the enemy is not human, you can’t hide in castles for long. It’s the type of war that requires the Jons, Jamies, Aryas, Briennes and Meeras of the world.

      Good fighters don’t mean shit ultimately if you don’t have leadership. Who cares how good your individual fighters are when you have endless, upon endless hordes which terrify the living, your armies will simply rout. It will come down to Dragons, leadership and everyone working together, not skilled fighters.

      Besides, Arya’s skillset is utterly worthless against undead and Jaime is 1 handed lol.

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    12. BeardedOnion:
      Why are people assuming the only part of politics is lying and tricking people?

      Leading Winterfell, it’s supplies, people and her allies (Vale) is going to make her one of the most important people in the season lol.

      The North and Vale are going to go ape shit at Jon.

      I agree. The North will feel very threatened, initially, by the arrival of Dany & her dragons. They know very little of Daenerys herself, and some of the news that is likely to reach their ears about her – like the burning of the Tarlys (who had surrendered but refused to “bend the knee”) – doesn’t make Dany look good. (Note: I’m not saying that Dany isn’t good, merely that she isn’t going to look good to the North, not because they’re idiots, but because the situation is complicated).

      Jon overtly allying himself with Daenerys Targaryen when he introduces her to the North isn’t a bad strategy, given that Sansa and the Northern lords have put their trust in him (well, Sansa has at least). But that strategy will turn out to be fatally flawed when it’s revealed that Jon is a Targaryen himself. I think that that’s where Sansa’s skills as a politician will be needed.

      I’d expect Sansa to be able to see the bigger picture and recognize the importance of holding all alliances together. It’s not just the Northern lords who will flip out – I don’t think Dany’s going to take that news calmly at first, and I imagine it will take more than one cooler head to keep things steady. Sansa and Tyrion and Davos (and maybe Varys?) will have their work cut out for them.

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    13. Gfx:
      Since they were going to train every man, woman, and child to fight last season I was hoping maybe this meant Sansa as well (plus Lyanna Mormont, oh my would that be great!) Not that she’d suddenly be this great fighter but if they’re even training children than I figured maybe we’ll see her getting trained in season 8.

      That was my immediate reaction as well. If Lady Stark (/Lannister/Bolton) is to serve as a role model for her people, she will need to undertake combat training like everyone else. Up until now she has relied on other people (and dogs) to do her killing for her; now she will have to get her hands dirty, or risk being accused of hypocrisy and losing the hearts and minds of her smallfolk. That would mean consciously letting go of the last vestiges of her training to be ladylike and courteous and people-pleasing.

      Can this be done without her becoming entirely cold, if she’s surrounded by the support of her family? Would she be willing to accept training from Arya, given their differences? There is opportunity here for some additional character development, despite Sansa’s arc having crested with the execution of her Svengali. She has been through a lot, but it’s still going to be an internal struggle to ‘kill the girl.’

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    14. Firannion: risk being accused of hypocrisy

      This is ridiculous. If someone doesn’t fight they are a hypocrite? Not everyone can (or should for the greater good) be a fighter. There are plenty other ways to contribute (some of which we saw Sansa do last season).

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    15. Firannion,

      I absolutely do not want anything like that. Sansa’s a non-combatant. She’s one of the characters who shows that you don’t need to wield a sword to be important and make a positive contribution. Having her take last-minute combat training just plays into the idea that her not being good at or interested in that stuff is a problem. There’s vital work for her to do in her own field of interest.

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    16. Priscila: This will give hope to Jonsa shippers.

      STOP IT SOPHIE!

      You do not know what you have unleashed on us, mere expectators

      Don’t worry they usually confine themselves to other corners of the web. 😉

      I am curious what her fight being “passionate rather than political” means. Fight for survival is passionate – so could mean the white walkers as the follow up question suggests, but I’m not sure that would count as “a new threat” since Sansa’s known about them since S6.

      It could be Daenerys and Sansa being passionate about Northern independence. But then that seems quite political so not sure why she’d say it’s not.

      I always figured Sansa (with Tyrion) will have to continue to fight a political battle against Cersei whilst people like Jon and Dany turn northward. But excited to see!

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    17. Sean C.:
      Firannion,

      I absolutely do not want anything like that.Sansa’s a non-combatant.She’s one of the characters who shows that you don’t need to wield a sword to be important and make a positive contribution.Having her take last-minute combat training just plays into the idea that her not being good at or interested in that stuff is a problem.There’s vital work for her to do in her own field of interest.

      I agree.

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    18. QueenOfThrones: This is ridiculous.If someone doesn’t fight they are a hypocrite?Not everyone can (or should for the greater good) be a fighter.There are plenty other ways to contribute (some of which we saw Sansa do last season).

      In the real world, I totally agree with you. I could not kill another person under any circumstances, I don’t think. What I’m talking about here is public perception and the overwhelming need to keep the North united. Jon said every man, woman, boy and girl must be prepared to take up arms. If Sansa exempts herself, the smallfolk are going to say, ‘What makes you so special?’ I don’t see aristocratic entitlement as playing so well in the North as it does for Cersei or Dany.

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    19. I personally wouldn’t want Sansa to be combatant either. I just assumed if kids are being trained for self-defense then she would too. I couldn’t picture her in the middle of a battle.

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    20. BeardedOnion,

      I agree with the general sentiment. Leadership is everything in war but we are talking about a war against the super natural, if Hardhome is a hint of what is to come then I’m not sure any military strategy will hold for too long. In my view, anyone who needs to be protected is a liability. They need any able body to put up a fight so I hope Sansa learns to wield at least a knife for her own good. And I clearly disagree about Arya, if she can do damage with Needle, she can do damage with the dagger Bran gifted her and she’s quick. I’m not a fan of Jamie but one hand Jamie is better than no Jamie at all. I expect most to die, warriors or no warriors but if there is any hope for some to survive all must learn to defend themselves.

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    21. QueenOfThrones:
      I am curious what her fight being “passionate rather than political” means.Fight for survival is passionate – so could mean the white walkers as the follow up question suggests, but I’m not sure that would count as “a new threat” since Sansa’s known about them since S6.

      It could be Daenerys and Sansa being passionate about Northern independence.But then that seems quite political so not sure why she’d say it’s not.

      I always figured Sansa (with Tyrion) will have to continue to fight a political battle against Cersei whilst people like Jon and Dany turn northward.But excited to see!

      Yes, the “passionate” fight could be one of mere survival … although that’s not entirely new for Sansa, either (thanks, Ramsay!). I could certainly see Sansa resisting Daenerys vis a vis Northern independence, especially if she becomes openly acknowledged as the Lady of Winterfell by the Northern lords once Jon’s heritage is revealed. QiTN? Not so sure about that (maybe?), but I could see her refusing to make any pledges in that regard until after the wars.

      I also imagine that Jon will need some assistance in figuring himself out once he discovers who he is. Who can he confide in? Davos, certainly. I can’t see why the show had the maesters withhold news of Randall & Dickon’s deaths from Sam unless that info was going to be Dramatically Important later on. Working from that assumption, I wonder if Sam will be suspicious of Daenerys once he learns about her killing his family – meaning he won’t be a great sounding board for Jon to figure out what his relationship with Dany should be.

      I presume that they’ll continue to make Bran inscrutable and so detached from those around him that he won’t be much help to Jon. Arya will be TeamJon no matter what, and if there’s tension between him and Dany, Arya would be just as likely to exacerbate things as help.

      Sansa, on the other hand, has a healthy respect for power and for building effective alliances and relationships. Even if Dany isn’t the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, she’s got two dragons, and the Army of the Dead is on the loose. Sansa has also been consistently reassuring to Jon that she sees him as a Stark, no matter what his name is. I don’t have a strong sense of how Sansa would feel about Northern independence, or Jon as the primary claimant to the throne, but I do think she might be positioned to be one of the key people to help Jon (and Daenerys) sort those issues out.

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    22. Firannion: In the real world, I totally agree with you. I could not kill another person under any circumstances, I don’t think. What I’m talking about here is public perception and the overwhelming need to keep the North united. Jon said every man, woman, boy and girl must be prepared to take up arms. If Sansa exempts herself, the smallfolk are going to say, ‘What makes you so special?’ I don’t see aristocratic entitlement as playing so well in the North as it does for Cersei or Dany.

      I might be misunderstanding your point but I don’t see how it follows that, even if she did participate in the training, Sansa’s Season 8 story arc would shift to focus on fighting. It just seems a stretch to expect that all of a sudden Sansa’s story would be about becoming a physical fighter, or to conclude that she’s a hypocrite if she doesn’t become a fighter.

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    23. It’s one thing to teach someone without experience how to fight to defend yourself when it’s necessary, but it’s another thing to train someone to fight who isn’t very good at it and then stick them in the front lines. You need fighters who know what they are doing and can do it well if you want to put them out there to fight the WW. Otherwise, they’ll just be sacrificial lambs for the NK’s Army of the Dead.

      For all I know Sansa could end being quite the skilled warrior, but at this stage I kind of doubt it. Same with Sam. They are much more useful doing what they do best, rather than being forced to do something they are not good at.

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    24. They aren’t going to priemere in the summer for a season that’s tagline will be “winter is finally here lol”. Feb 10 makes a ton of sense, it’s in the dead of winter and leaves the last episode for March 17th, just 3 days before the official start of Spring (A Dream of Spring, anyone?). Not only that but considering production will end around June/July, that would be just the right amount of time for post-production judging by previous seasons’ releases.

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    25. Bye Sansa! 👋

      No, not everyone should have to be a warrior. But everyone should at least be trained to defend themselves in the most basic situations. Hopefully our non-warriors get basic ‘how to conceal a blade and use it in a pinch’ lesson.

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    26. Sansa is passionate about her family, Winterfell and Northern Independence. It’s her safezone. The NK and Cersi are already her known threats. Dany is the new threat to all her and Jon went through on the road to reclaim it. Sansa will not want to be ruled by another Southern monarch.

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    27. I feel like if Dany was willing to grant Ironborn independence during her talk with Tyrion, Yara, and Theon in season 6 then she would also be willing to grant Northern independence too, but who knows.

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    28. Mr Derp:
      I feel like if Dany was willing to grant Ironborn independence during her talk with Tyrion, Yara, and Theon in season 6 then she would also be willing to grant Northern independence too, but who knows.

      Yes, maybe. Assuming that it’s her call to make. I feel pretty confident that Jon won’t want the throne, but Tyrion and Varys had growing misgivings about Dany as a ruler throughout the last season, and I wonder if they’d advocate for Jon’s claim even if he himself doesn’t want it. So complicated!

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    29. I sincerely doubt that Sansa will go against Dany. This northern independence thing is something certain fans have decided is important, but it has never been an issue up until a few years ago. The north would be incredibly stupid to reject Dany’s protection at this point.

      I also think that with Sophie saying Sansa’s fight isn’t political, that kind of excludes any leadership infighting? It’s petty and meaningless in the face of the great war to come. If Sansa does, it would once again make her look power-hungry and short-soghted. Going against Jon – the selfless hero, with whom the audience’s sympathies generally lie – looked bad at the end of S6. I hope the writers don’t take things in that direction.

      As for passion? Probably it’s fighting in defence of Winterfell (in an organisation capacity!! I don’t think she’ll suddenly become a warrior either). Whether that’s against Cersei, the undead or both.

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    30. Nowhere did I suggest that Sansa’s character development in S8 would or should involve her becoming a front-line warrior. She won’t be Arya Mach 2; that would be lame storytelling. I’m saying that simply undertaking the training will be a struggle for her.

      No one in their right mind would choose Sansa as someone to send to the front lines. But when the front lines come to Winterfell’s doorstep and beyond, no one will have the luxury of saying ‘My proper role is as a non-combatant.’ The choices will be: 1) Don’t fight and die; 2) Fight and die anyway; 3) Fight and maybe survive.

      I do think it would be cool if she had one minor-scale moment of hand-to-hand combat glory, even if that means some baddie accidentally backing into her blade. Something like Frodo’s first orc kill in the Mines of Moria. It would be fun to see an Aryaesque grin flit over her face, where we get to see the family resemblance while she says, ‘Hey, I can do this!’ But badass Amazon Sansa: clearly not.

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    31. “It’s a big challenge for her, without this master manipulator having her back.”
      …………………

      Stabbing her in the back is more like it. LF never really “had her back” unless it advanced his own agenda. FecalFlinger was pretty much impotent and irrelevant by the time S7 rolled around anyway.

      Besides, now a kickass face-changing ninja assassin has her back. And Brienne of F*cking Tarth. And quite possibly Sandor Clegane as well.

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    32. My suspicion is that Arya will train Sansa. Not to be a FM but just to fight. I could see them having a Buffy/Dawn back to back fighting against wights moment. I think her reference to a passionate fight rather than a political one means that Sansa is finally going to be fighting for her family.

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    33. Ten Bears:

      Besides, now a kickass face-changing ninja assassin has her back. And Brienne of F*cking Tarth. And quite possibly Sandor Clegane as well.

      Yes, I’ll be interested to see what they do with Sandor next season. I don’t think he’s sworn allegiance to Dany, has he?

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    34. I think at most we’ll see Sansa carrying a knife, like Shae in 2×09 or Cat in 2×04, for her own protection.

      But I don’t really get the desire for every female character on this show to somehow prove their worth through fighting and killing people.

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    35. BeardedOnion,

      “Besides, Arya’s skillset is utterly worthless against undead and Jaime is 1 handed…”
      ………………..

      Oh, I wouldn’t say Arya’s skill set is utterly worthless against the Undead.
      Remember when the Night King grabbed Bran’s wrist? Bran freaked. But if he tried that with Arya, she’d do that nifty hand-switch flip move with her VS dagger and…bye bye Night King.

      (Where’s Ol’ Hanging Gun Wimsey? I wonder if he’d say that you don’t give Arya a Chekhov’s VS dagger unless it’s going to be “fired” in Act III.)

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    36. Firannion,

      Oh, I think Sansa’s role is going to be to keep the Northern lords and Vale lords loyal and on message once Jon shows up with a hot new Targaryen girlfriend, no crown, and no “Ned Stark’s blood run[ning] through his veins.”

      After all, the showrunners have been telling us for years how Sansa has become a “savvy” politician. Now’s the time to show her in action.

      At least that’s how my fanfic story line plays out.

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    37. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      But I don’t really get the desire for every female character on this show to somehow prove their worth through fighting and killing people.

      This. I think there’s a widely held belief that the only way to be strong and effective is to “swing the blade” yourself, and that to act through others who are allied with you is at best rather cowardly and weak, and at worst, manipulative. TBH I think the show’s writers have a bit of that bias themselves.

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    38. Ten Bears:
      Firannion,

      Oh, I think Sansa’s role is going to be to keep the Northern lords and Vale lords loyal and on message once Jon shows up with a hot new Targaryen girlfriend, no crown, and no “Ned Stark’s blood run[ning] through his veins.”

      After all, the showrunners have been telling us for years how Sansa has become a “savvy” politician. Now’s the time to show her in action.

      At least that’s how my fanfic story line plays out.

      Yup, I agree!

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    39. Gwidhiel: Yup, I agree!

      Yeah, I saw your 1:01 pm comment after I’d posted mine. (You wrote: “I think that that’s where Sansa’s skills as a politician will be needed. I’d expect Sansa to be able to see the bigger picture and recognize the importance of holding all alliances together…”)

      I guess we’re on the same wavelength. 🤓📡

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    40. I could see Sansa’s storyline as something like this:

      Episodes 1-2: Interacting with Jon, Arya, The Hound, Tyrion and others. Confronting Daenerys about her intentions (I don’t think they will get along well, at least at first). I can see the Knights of The Vale leaving Winterfell, not willing to be anywhere near the Mad King’s daughter. Dealing with the fact that Jon is a Targaryen after all.

      Episodes 3-4: Helping evacuate Winterfell before the castle falls (I think the battle for Winterfell will be around Episode 2, otherwise the WW’s invasion would be too dragged) and maybe travelling to The Eyrie to convince the Knights of The Vale of fighting together with Daenerys and Jon against the upcoming threats (both Cersei and the WW’s).

      Episodes 5-6: Realizing that Cersei must be defeated, she could take the Vale force to King’s Landing. Maybe giving an ultimatum to Cersei (it would be a great scene, where she would show everything she learnt from Littlerfinger ans Cersei). Or Arya and Sansa could plan an assassination against Cersei, using Arya’s FM skills. I don’t see her fighting in the final battle at King’s Landing, but after that, she would play a major role in the reconstruction of Westeros and the new world after the Long Night.

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    41. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I also want Sansa to do what women do: to nurse the wounded, to find a way to feed all the combatants and noncombatants, to prevent panic, and even to pray – she prooved to be pretty good at that during the Battle of the Blackwater Bayand now she should be even better. And those things will turn to be as important as swinging swords. That’s for the siege of Winterfell.

      Later, after it’s lifter, Sansa will most probably concentrate on Cersei and that may also result into something pivotal, though Cersei’s fate will be linked to the NK.

      As for the Northern independence, if it is to become an issue, it will be out of the blue. The North lived happily under the Targs and the Baratheons and have never rose in a rebellion. The only rebellion in the Northern history was Robert’s rebellion during which the issue of the Northern independence has never been raised. It occured only recetly and only because the North couldn’t associate with any of the claimants to the IT, because they ignored the northern iterests. Howewer, now they have a claimant who takes the northern interests at heart and is ready to fight for them. Moreover, she loves their king. So, where’s the problem?
      The only problem may arise, if Dany does something impulsive after learning about Jon’s true status based on her prejudice against the Tarlies and the Northern lords – I mean she may legitly take it as a ruse manufactured by her enemies, but evetually that should be sorted out.

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    42. Gwidhiel: Yes, I’ll be interested to see what they do with Sandor next season.I don’t think he’s sworn allegiance to Dany, has he?

      • I guess Sandor was on Team Jon by the time of the Dragonpit show & tell with Captured Wight. Maybe that means he’s on Team Dany now that Jon’s pledged himself to Daenerys. That could be an interesting mash-up. (“The Night King’s still got Viserion”; …”What the f*ck’s a Viserion?”;… “My dragon”;…”Of course you named your dragon”; …”Lots of people name their dragons”; …”Lots of c*nts.”)
      Sorry for that….

      • I’ve always felt the show conspicuously demonstrated that Arya has unresolved emotions about Sandor to set up their eventual reconciliation, e.g.:

      S5e6: Jaqen called out A Girl for lying to him, to the Many-Faced God, and to herself, when she insisted she she hated Sandor and wanted him to suffer.

      S6e3: A Girl told the Waif Sandor “was … and was not” on her list anymore, and “she did … and she did not” want him dead anymore: she admitted she was confused.

      S7e2: When Arya encountered Hot Pie, her dining etiquette was vintage Sandor, e.g., stabbing at food, asking “Got any ale?” but immediately grabbing the pitcher, pouring herself a mug, and draining it all in one long gulp

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    43. Firannion:
      No one in their right mind would choose Sansa as someone to send to the front lines. But when the front lines come to Winterfell’s doorstep and beyond, no one will have the luxury of saying ‘My proper role is as a non-combatant.’ The choices will be: 1) Don’t fight and die; 2) Fight and die anyway; 3) Fight and maybe survive.

      Or she could do any of the things that need to be done around the castle that don’t involve fighting, like overall coordination, etc. That’s what she’s been doing thus far. Winterfell is a fortress; if it’s sieged, that doesn’t mean everyone is going to be manning the ramparts.

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    44. Ten Bears:

      • I guess Sandor was on Team Jon by the time of the Dragonpit show & tell with Captured Wight. Maybe that means he’s on Team Dany now that Jon’s pledged himself to Daenerys. That could be an interesting mash-up. (“The Night King’s still got Viserion”; …”What the f*ck’s a Viserion?”;… “My dragon”;…”Of course you named your dragon”; …”Lots of people name their dragons”; …”Lots of c*nts.”) Sorry for that….

      Ahahaaa! I love it. Season 7 Sandor was one of the few characterizations I could embrace. I hope we get lots more in Season 8.

      • I’ve always felt the show conspicuously demonstrated that Arya has unresolved emotions about Sandor to set up their eventual reconciliation, e.g.:

      S5e6: Jaqen called out A Girl for lying to him, to the Many-Faced God, and to herself, when she insisted she she hated Sandor and wanted him to suffer.

      S6e3: A Girl told the Waif Sandor “was … and was not” on her list anymore, and “she did … and she did not” want him dead anymore: she admitted she was confused.

      S7e2: When Arya encountered Hot Pie, her dining etiquette was vintage Sandor, e.g., stabbing at food, asking “Got any ale?” but immediately grabbing the pitcher, pouring herself a mug, and draining it all in one long gulp

      Yes, I’m with you. As I think we’ve discussed in the past I’m a bit worried about what Season 8 will bring for Arya, given what they did with her in Season 7. But her reunion with Sandor is something I’m really looking forward to.

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    45. I have to agree that Sansa’s S8 arc has great potential for her to be fighting for her family. To keep her family together, maybe? As the one Stark child who didn’t really bond with Jon when she was growing up, it may be that Sansa is the one who finds it easiest to adapt to Jon being her cousin – because in many ways, he was never her brother the way he was Arya’s, for example.

      I don’t see Jon having a positive reaction to his parentage and I don’t think Arya will take it well either. She and Jon were outsiders together when they were growing up, and the one part of Arya she could never let go of was Needle, her present from Jon.

      Sansa is one of the characters I think will survive past the Great War, and I would love to see her in charge of Winterfell after it is all over. She was so desperate to leave, it is almost fitting that she is the one who ends up staying.

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    46. (In reply to Sean C)

      I think you missed my reference to Winterfell’s doorstep AND BEYOND. We have no guarantee that it will be merely besieged and not overrun. We’ve already seen wights’ gravity-defying climbing skills at Weirnet Central. The Ironborn managed to infiltrate Winterfell quite easily, with ropes and grappling hooks. Wights don’t seem to need those (at least in the TV version). So the walls shouldn’t be much of a deterrent.

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    47. Firannion:
      (In reply to Sean C)

      I think you missed my reference to Winterfell’s doorstep AND BEYOND. We have no guarantee that it will be merely besieged and not overrun. We’ve already seen wights’ gravity-defying climbing skills at Weirnet Central. The Ironborn managed to infiltrate Winterfell quite easily, with ropes and grappling hooks. Wights don’t seem to need those (at least in the TV version). So the walls shouldn’t be much of a deterrent.

      I also don’t know how a moat would help, or why ANY body of water has been an issue, to be honest. As we saw with Viserion, they can operate underwater, and apparently don’t drown. Why can’t they just walk along the lake/ocean floor? I’m missing something here.

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    48. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      I don’t really get the desire for every female character on this show to somehow prove their worth through fighting and killing people.

      I don’t think many viewers want that. I certainly don’t. But in the specific case of Sansa, I think she has some unfinished business re: her self-image as ‘ladylike.’ A few undignified spills in the mud whilst learning some basic fighting moves, ending up with her and Arya laughing together, would strike me as humanizing.

      In the bigger picture, allowing some of the non-professional-combatant characters to have safe places to hole up indefinitely while the Army of the Dead sweeps across the land seems to me to diminish the immensity of the threat. This is Armageddon. Ragnarok. I don’t expect to see any leisurely philosophical chats about the arts of war in the penultimate episode.

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    49. What’s with this everybody equating fighting with swinging a sword? After Jon insisted that even children train, we briefly saw some kids at archery practice.

      I agree that Sansa should set an example and take up some training when she’s not busy administering WF, but her training time would probably be better spent at archery than swordfighting.

      Dragonglass tipped arrows seem like a sensible weapon against wights and white walkers. Hope they have stacks and stacks!

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    50. talvikorppi:
      What’s with this everybody equating fighting with swinging a sword? After Jon insisted that even children train, we briefly saw some kids at archery practice.

      I agree that Sansa should set an example and take up some training when she’s not busy administering WF, but her training time would probably be better spent at archery than swordfighting.

      Dragonglass tipped arrows seem like a sensible weapon against wights and white walkers. Hope they have stacks and stacks!

      That seems plausible.

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    51. Pigeon: I also don’t know how a moat would help, or why ANY body of water has been an issue, to be honest. As we saw with Viserion, they can operate underwater, and apparently don’t drown. Why can’t they just walk along the lake/ocean floor? I’m missing something here.

      Not sure they’d have to “operate underwater.” If Melsandre’s prophecies are to be believed (S2e1): “The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas, and the dead shall rise in the North.”

      They can just stroll along the frozen surface of any “body of water.”

      Second-hand semi-spoiler alert: Though I did not notice this myself, apparently some viewers

      watching the “animated map” in the opening segments of late-S7 episodes say that the seas off the coast of the North were frosted white.

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    52. Ten Bears,

      Yes, you could see it over by Eastwatch. Everything is getting all chilly. 😜

      Sure they can wait for it to freeze. I just don’t know why they didn’t go on a little water march right to Jon & Co’s island. Ah well, not a biggie.

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    53. What if Winterfell had a fire-filled moat? Not sure how they’d keep it fueled for more than a day or two, but it seems like they’d be able to hold off the Dead for a while that way. Not the WW themselves, nor the NK on Viserion, but I’ve read persuasive speculations that the NK will fly on Viserion directly to Kings Landing while the WW lead the Army of the Dead in the North, so perhaps Winterfell won’t have to contend with an aerial assault.

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    54. talvikorppi:

      “Dragonglass tipped arrows seem like a sensible weapon against wights and white walkers. Hope they have stacks and stacks!”

      I think Jon said they mined all the dragonglass they’d need. DG-tipped bolts for crossbows would work, for dwarves as well as little kids. And didn’t the Night’s Watch have humongous scythes to sweep across and slice up invaders crawling up the Wall? Coat a few of those suckers with dragonglass powder and Krazy Glue, mount them on WF’s walls, and watch climbing wights disintegrate.

      And hey…its’s too bad Bran + Co. didn’t get the recipe for the COTF’s napalm hand grenades before Leaf blew herself up at the 3ER cave. Those fireballs would come in handy, especially for strong-armed outfielders like Sandor Clegane.

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    55. Ten Bears:
      And hey…its’s too bad Bran + Co. didn’t get the recipe for the COTF’s napalm hand grenades before Leaf blew herself up at the 3ER cave. Those fireballs would come in handy, especially for strong-armed outfielders like Sandor Clegane.

      He’d need to get over his fear of fire, first. But I bet he would.

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    56. Ten Bears,

      Oh now that I think a bit more about that, throwing fireballs would be a chance for Sandor to “redeem” himself after abandoning the Blackwater battle once Tyrion launched the wildfire. I like it!

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    57. Firannion: That was my immediate reaction as well. If Lady Stark (/Lannister/Bolton) is to serve as a role model for her people, she will need to undertake combat training like everyone else. Up until now she has relied on other people (and dogs) to do her killing for her; now she will have to get her hands dirty, or risk being accused of hypocrisy and losing the hearts and minds of her smallfolk.

      No she won’t, as Jorah stated, the small folks, want people who make sure they’re fed, and warm etc. Sansa would be just as much a hero to them as those fighting for them.
      Unless GRRM shows her taking up weapons to protect herself in the books ( and so far,including excerpts ) which so far hasn’t happened.
      I want to see her win their hearts, by showing she understands their ( realistic )needs, not as a need of fantasy.
      Cat could protect herself a little, but she never was ever in battle ( except in the mountains of the Vale ) or trained for it. She was liked and respected.

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    58. Sean C.:
      Firannion,

      I absolutely do not want anything like that.Sansa’s a non-combatant.She’s one of the characters who shows that you don’t need to wield a sword to be important and make a positive contribution.Having her take last-minute combat training just plays into the idea that her not being good at or interested in that stuff is a problem.There’s vital work for her to do in her own field of interest.

      Agree 100%

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    59. Pigeon:
      Ten Bears,

      Yes, you could see it over by Eastwatch. Everything is getting all chilly. 😜

      Sure they can wait for it to freeze. I just don’t know why they didn’t go on a little water march right to Jon & Co’s island. Ah well, not a biggie.

      Oh, sorry. Now I understand what you meant about just walking underwater to reach Snow Patrol Island like they did to attach the chain to Viserion’s corpse, instead of waiting for the lake surface to freeze over.

      Well, I’m confused about that. At Hardhome it looked like the wights couldn’t follow the good guys into the sea. At the Dragonpit, Euron confirmed (?) that wights couldn’t travel across bodies of water before (faksely) announcing he was going back to the safety of his island.

      So I do not know the answer. Are wights amphibious? Did the NK sacrifice the wight divers at the Frozen Lake?

      👿 I don’t mind magic and voodoo science; I just like the know what the rules are.

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    60. Firannion: In the real world, I totally agree with you. I could not kill another person under any circumstances, I don’t think. What I’m talking about here is public perception and the overwhelming need to keep the North united. Jon said every man, woman, boy and girl must be prepared to take up arms. If Sansa exempts herself, the smallfolk are going to say, ‘What makes you so special?’ I don’t see aristocratic entitlement as playing so well in the North as it does for Cersei or Dany.

      Well if they look at it that way, they’re foolish, someone needs to house them, feed them, bandage them etc., and also provide the aid and supplies for the combatants.
      Along with watching their backs, Sansa and Arya are more important ( I’m sure Arya love to battle ) behind the lines then in it or ahead of it.

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    61. Gwidhiel: He’d need to get over his fear of fire, first. But I bet he would.

      Forgot about that. But I gotta go back and look: Do those COTF grenades come in two different versions? In “The Children” (S4e10), they looked like fireballs, but in “The Door”, Leaf had a glowing model that was either on a timer or detonated on contact. (I knew I shouldn’t have thrown away the catalog.)

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    62. Firannion,

      Well, I guess that’s where we differ since I don’t feel she really needs to be humanized any further. But if they do feel it necessary then I imagine it’s more likely to be in depicting her duties as the Lady of Winterfell, looking after her more vulnerable subjects, keeping spirits up and so on, similar to her efforts at the Blackwater.

      Sansa is ladylike. That’s been her character the whole way through the show, so I don’t see any need to change that this late in the day. She can bond with her siblings and subjects in other ways.

      I figure the most vulnerable Northerners will most likely be holed up in the Winterfell crypts while the castle is besieged. Most good battle sequence tends to illustrate what’s at stake on a human level as well as the military, especially in apocalyptic scenarios. If everyone is armed and involved in the fray then it risks becoming one-dimensional.

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    63. Ten Bears: Forgot about that. But I gotta go back and look: Do those COTF grenades come in two different versions? In “The Children” (S4e10), they looked like fireballs, but in “The Door”, Leaf had a glowing model that was either on a timer or detonated on contact. (I knew I shouldn’t have thrown away the catalog.)

      Could their level of activation depend on where they’re being deployed? S4e10 they were being thrown outside but later they were being used underground in tight quarters. You woudn’t want to wind up to throw if you’re going to burn someone standing right next to you in the tunnel.

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    64. Grail King,

      To her credit, Sansa recognized the more important task was to gather sufficient stores of grain before the real cold weather hits or the enemy besieges WF. The show has been telegraphing over and over since S1 that there’s not going to be enough food; the silly wars, conscription of farmers, and senseless destruction of crops and farmland have only made it more dire. (E.g., Tywin: “Burn the villages, burn the farms.”)

      A more accurate catch phrase would be “Famine is Coming.”

      At least Sansa has recognized that taking charge of storing and rationing food is more essential to their survival than learning how to use a sword.

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    65. Sonya:
      Sansa is passionate about her family, Winterfell and Northern Independence. It’s her safezone. The NK and Cersi are already her known threats. Dany is the new threat to all her and Jon went through on the road to reclaim it. Sansa will not want to be ruled by another Southern monarch.

      I agree, unless she gets some kind of assurances that benefits the North and House Stark.
      I see her proposing they marry, Maybe Danny dies in child birth, the child is the last Targaryean, but is also of Stark blood, sets up a future where the Starks can also rule in the future with a claim, and the North gets more freedom ( maybe not total independence ) which they can live with.

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    66. Sean C.: Or she could do any of the things that need to be done around the castle that don’t involve fighting, like overall coordination, etc.That’s what she’s been doing thus far.Winterfell is a fortress; if it’s sieged, that doesn’t mean everyone is going to be manning the ramparts.

      +1

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    67. Pigeon: I also don’t know how a moat would help, or why ANY body of water has been an issue, to be honest. As we saw with Viserion, they can operate underwater, and apparently don’t drown. Why can’t they just walk along the lake/ocean floor? I’m missing something here.
      My bet is, the moat will be filled with oil and set a fire.

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    68. Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      To her credit, Sansa recognized the more important task was to gather sufficient stores of grain before the real cold weather hits or the enemy besieges WF. The show has been telegraphing over and over since S1 that there’s not going to be enough food; the silly wars, conscription of farmers, and senseless destruction of crops and farmland have only made it more dire. (E.g., Tywin: “Burn the villages, burn the farms.”)

      A more accurate catch phrase would be “Famine is Coming.”

      At least Sansa has recognized that taking charge of storing and rationing food is more essential to their survival than learning how to use a sword.

      Agree, I’m sure there was a reason in her Alaynne chapter of learning LF buying up all the food and the show having her sending Ravens to have Lords send food for the war .to WF
      Totally opposite of what Cersei is doing.

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    69. Grail King,

      “Totally opposite of what Cersei is doing.”
      …………………..

      Precisely! And Cersei’s shorsightedness + double-cross have got to come back to bite her in the ass: She’ll be in a city of a million starving, defenseless people.

      As Jon Snow warned her at the Dragonpit: “They’re about to become a million more soldiers in the Army of the Dead.”

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    70. Grail King,

      Oh, I forgot to add:

      Way to go, Daeny! Brilliant move to torch the food wagons in S7e4!

      So now she’s headed up to WF with her Dothraki + Unsullied army. Sansa’s probably going to think, “F*ck! We don’t have enough food to go around as it is. Am I supposed to let our people starve to death while these marauders eat us out of house and home? No way.”

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    71. Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      Oh, I forgot to add:

      Way to go, Daeny! Brilliant move to torch the food wagons in S7e4!

      So now she’s headed up to WF with her Dothraki + Unsullied army. Sansa’s probably going to think, “F*ck! We don’t have enough food to go around as it is. Am I supposed to let our people starve to death while these marauders eat us out of house and home? No way.”

      They will have some horse meat

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    72. Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      Oh, I forgot to add:

      Way to go, Daeny! Brilliant move to torch the food wagons in S7e4!

      So now she’s headed up to WF with her Dothraki + Unsullied army. Sansa’s probably going to think, “F*ck! We don’t have enough food to go around as it is. Am I supposed to let our people starve to death while these marauders eat us out of house and home? No way.”

      Yeah, but at least they’ll actually still be alive to starve to death, with an army and dragons around!

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    73. so you mean Dany doesn’t have to fight a white walkers with all her armies and North with Sansa gonna do this by themselves?

      Ten Bears:
      Grail King,

      Oh, I forgot to add:

      Way to go, Daeny! Brilliant move to torch the food wagons in S7e4!

      So now she’s headed up to WF with her Dothraki + Unsullied army. Sansa’s probably going to think, “F*ck! We don’t have enough food to go around as it is. Am I supposed to let our people starve to death while these marauders eat us out of house and home? No way.”

      Rob,

      Rob,

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    74. Priscila:
      Artemisia,

      I know it will not happen, but tell this to Jonsa shippers! They are a wild bunch!

      It could be more simple..Sansa maybe depressed and feels bad because she will loose her home ,some of her last family members[Bran,Jon maybe,Arya maybe] and her friends[Breanne,The Hound,Podrick,Tyrion …]..Those things had nothing to do with politics ..Has to do with the people who you love[friends,family,home] and they love you..That will be a logical thing she to feel bad ..She to be jealous of Danny/Jon or to try to force Jon to fall in love with her ..has no logic..and its too cliche for GOT ..There wont be happy endings..the only ending [bittersweet] who will happen is that all Westeros destroyed,Throne destroyed,peoples[like Jon/Danny/Bran] who are connected with magic dies along with it and some offsprings[Danny/Jon child , Cercei/Jaime child,Arya and lil Sam]surviving all this and be the future/hope of their ..houses continue to live..This will be the logic that the showrunners will follow for the end of series to be bittersweet.

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    75. hru,

      All I meant was there was no reason to incinerate the food wagons in S7e4.

      As reknowned economist Ser Bronn of the Blackwater once explained, during a siege potatoes are worth more than gold. Recall that those two guys at the Crossroads Inn (S7e2) Arya was overhearing were expecting prices to triple because of Dany’s imminent assault on KL.

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    76. hru:
      so you mean Dany doesn’t have to fight a white walkers with all her armies and North with Sansa gonna do this by themselves?

      Rob,

      Rob,

      You missed the point, Sansa as a non combatant, is doing what needs to be done to give, not only Danny, but Jon, Bran, other fighters and Non combatants, the support they need as they fight for the living.

      No where is anyone saying Sansa or Jon and Danny are doing this them selves; but as of right now, Sansa has food being brought to WF for the fight.
      Cersei is hoarding the food for herself and not taking care of the small folks ( ~1million of them ) who are food for the dead.
      Danny is going North, but instead of capturing the food supply, she in a rage burned it; now as she and Jon head north by boat, her army, will have to TAKE the food from small folks and towns, by force, making her looking like the enemy, instead of a savior.

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    77. When Sansa and Sandor meet again:
      Sandor: You are not a little bird anymore …
      Sansa: You are not a dog anymore …
      Sansa: Welcome, come sit by my side
      Sandor: I will not say an oath or a vow or bend the knee or anything like that
      Sansa: I didn’t asked
      Sansa: (cutting a slice of pork) Are you hungry ?
      Arya: Chicken is what he likes

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    78. ygritte,

      I remember when the Sopranos took 15 months between seasons 4 and 5, and then took nearly 2 full years between seasons 5 and 6. That was brutal. GoT is definitely approaching that.

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    79. Fronklan:
      When Sansa and Sandor meet again:
      Sandor: You are not a little bird anymore …
      Sansa: You are not a dog anymore …
      Sansa: Welcome, come sit by my side
      Sandor: I will not say an oath or a vow or bend the knee or anything like that
      Sansa: I didn’t asked
      Sansa: (cutting a slice of pork) Are you hungry ?
      Arya: Chicken is what he likes

      I really look forward to the Stark girls and the Hound being together.

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    80. Fronklan:
      When Sansa and Sandor meet again:
      Sandor: You are not a little bird anymore …
      Sansa: You are not a dog anymore …
      Sansa: Welcome, come sit by my side
      Sandor: I will not say an oath or a vow or bend the knee or anything like that
      Sansa: I didn’t asked
      Sansa: (cutting a slice of pork) Are you hungry ?
      Arya: Chicken is what he likes

      Haha, yes! Sandor is one of my enduring favorites.

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    81. Fronklan:
      When Sansa and Sandor meet again:
      Sandor: You are not a little bird anymore …
      Sansa: You are not a dog anymore …
      Sansa: Welcome, come sit by my side
      Sandor: I will not say an oath or a vow or bend the knee or anything like that
      Sansa: I didn’t asked
      Sansa: (cutting a slice of pork) Are you hungry ?
      Arya: Chicken is what he likes

      LOL..You are a funny and good story teller

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    82. Grail King,

      The enemy is riding an undead dragon with an army of zombies at his back. He is hard to mistake for the only chance the north has to survive. When faced with the question of survival mankind will do anything as well they should. If the people of the north had any of that honor they like to tout so famously they would welcome Daenerys and her army (again the ONLY chance the north has to survive) with open arms and hail her the rightful queen of the seven kingdoms. As someone said above she could have learned of the WW threat and said “you guys have fun Ill be heading back to Essos” but she instead turned all her resources north. This fight is for the survival of the realm and if it does turn out that they win then the ones that survive will remember why.

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    83. Hello. I am not a frequent poster but many posts often emphasize the importance of Daenerys and her dragons as the saviors against the white walkers. I also have thought this many times. But it is interesting how during the first long night, the walkers were driven back and this was 8,000 years before Aegon”s conquest. I don’t believe, (unless I am wrong ) that dragons had any part to play in the long night from thousands of years ago. This is an interesting thought, considering the emphasis on Dany as the savior of the 7 kingdoms. Not to say she isn’t of course, but the others were driven back to the land of always winter once before without any evidence of dragons. Perhaps I am missing some relevant information, but were dragons in existence in Westeros 10,000 years ago?

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    84. I dont have time to read every comment so if somebody already stated this sorry beforehand.

      I don’t think Sansa will be a fighter in season 8. But I think she will somehow be involved in a psychical fight. What if in episode 1 or 2 she has issues with Dannerys. But when the WW attack and the need to flee, she will save Dany’s life (or somebody elses but a conflict with Dany that will be resolved in her saving Dany later will give a certain bond). What if somebody get attacked by a ground of wights on the way out and she burns them or something like that, or even kill a WW a la Sam.

      What I don’t hope is that they make her a fighter a la Arya.

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    85. Just here to give my obligatory off season whine about the downfall of GoT. Not even sure what to look forward to in S8, most of the major arcs / storylines were destroyed in S7. Should be a depressing 6 episode run to finish off the once great series, where I used to literally count down the seconds till the next season and watched the episodes over and over. D & D proved woefully inept at continuing the same brand of storytelling in the first part of the series, turning the show into another Disney / Marvel endeavor. I have not decided if I will do an entire series rewatch leading up to the first episode of S8 as I had always planned to do. I digress though, I will be here to watch the remaining 6 episodes no matter how painful it might be. What a disappointing ending to a once magnificent series :`(

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    86. Asoiaf fan,

      I don’t have a strong opinion myself on this one, but if I had to bet money it would be that the dragons will be vital in defeating the NK (at least in the show).

      That said, you’ve raised a very interesting point, to which I would add that, were it not for Dany taking the dragons over the Wall to save the wight expedition, the NK and his army would still be stuck on the other side of the Wall. Now, not only are they marching south en masse, the NK has a dragon of his own. Which ironically makes the remaining dragons all the more crucial for defense of the living.

      I’ve read others’ persuasive speculations that the NK will fly directly south to King’s Landing, leaving the destruction of Winterfell and the North to his WW lieutenants and the masses of the dead. So perhaps Dany and the two remaining dragons will be away from the action in the North, while the northerners use other tactics to fight the Army of the Dead? Now that the North is armed with tons of dragonglass, arrows and spears and daggers made of the stuff might give the north a fighting chance, even without the dragons.

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    87. hursta1: As someone said above she could have learned of the WW threat and said “you guys have fun Ill be heading back to Essos” but she instead turned all her resources north.

      Dany is supposed to be this great champion of the common folk, determined to save them from death and torment by any means. She’s insistent that she was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms and that she’s going to be a better, more benevolent ruler than those that went before.

      Yet some people are adamant that the Westerosi, particularly the Northerners, should be kissing her feet for following through on her own principles.

      And let’s not forget that the Night King WOULD NOT HAVE A DRAGON if Dany hadn’t turned up in Westeros. Jon wouldn’t necessarily have had to go begging her for the dragonglass on Dragonstone and trying to coerce Cersei into a truce if Dany wasn’t around complicating issues.

      Would the Night King have found another way past The Wall? Would Jon have had to find a way to bring the Lannisters into the fold regardless? Perhaps.

      But some people’s desire to ignore Dany’s own culpability in the crisis facing Westeros, not to mention the consistency of her own character/principles, in order to justify the belief that everybody should be falling at her feet is just blinkered.

      Yes, if she saves Westeros then she will no doubt be heralded a hero and possibly command the fealty of all those who owe her their lives.

      But let’s not pretend that everybody should be automatically fawning over her already, simply for doing what she claims she wants to do (ie. stand up for the people of Westeros) and seeking to combat a threat that is partly of her own making!

      If she’d sailed back to Essos upon hearing about the White Walkers then Westeros wouldn’t be in any worse danger than they are now, following her involvement.

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    88. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      But let’s not pretend that everybody should be automatically fawning over her already, simply for doing what she claims she wants to do (ie. stand up for the people of Westeros) and seeking to combat a threat that is partly of her own making!

      If she’d sailed back to Essos upon hearing about the White Walkers then Westeros wouldn’t be in any worse danger than they are now, following her involvement.

      Heresy! IT IS KNOWN that Daenerys is the supreme hero of the story, and that no one is more righteous than she.

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    89. Gwidhiel,

      Yes, I can see that happening. Unfortunately, the destruction of the wall by the wight dragon is the very reason the army of the dead is able to march south of the wall in the first place, resulting in the essential need for the other 2 dragons. So they need dragons to fight a dragon, essentially .

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    90. hursta1:
      Grail King,

      The enemy is riding an undead dragon with an army of zombies at his back.He is hard to mistake for the only chance the north has to survive.When faced with the question of survival mankind will do anything as well they should.If the people of the north had any of that honor they like to tout so famously they would welcome Daenerys and her army (again the ONLY chance the north has to survive) with open arms and hail her the rightful queen of the seven kingdoms.As someone said above she could have learned of the WW threat and said “you guys have fun Ill be heading back to Essos” but she instead turned all her resources north.This fight is for the survival of the realm and if it does turn out that they win then the ones that survive will remember why.

      hursta1:
      Grail King,

      The enemy is riding an undead dragon with an army of zombies at his back.He is hard to mistake for the only chance the north has to survive.When faced with the question of survival mankind will do anything as well they should.If the people of the north had any of that honor they like to tout so famously they would welcome Daenerys and her army (again the ONLY chance the north has to survive) with open arms and hail her the rightful queen of the seven kingdoms.As someone said above she could have learned of the WW threat and said “you guys have fun Ill be heading back to Essos” but she instead turned all her resources north.This fight is for the survival of the realm and if it does turn out that they win then the ones that survive will remember why.

      This started with someone or two saying Sansa needs to be seen using a weapon to be respected, a number of us stated she did not.
      We also stated Sansa as a non combatant is doing what needs to be done to insure the combatants HAVE what they need to succeed, along with providing for the small folks, and in the small folks eyes Sansa is just as heroic as Jon, Danny, etc.
      I then listed what Sansa has done WRG to the food supplies and small folks compared to Cersei and Danny.
      WRG to Danny coming North:
      I talked about the food supplies that she burned, instead of taken, she destroyed them in a fit of rage.
      I also said her people heading north FROM the south will need to take food from the small folks en route, this could set her up as a bad person to those affected. No where did I ( or others ) say the North won’t fight with her,they may not trust her, history isn’t exactly on her side. If Sansa, Jon,Arya and Bran say she’s good, then she’s good, if anyone in the north objects ( looking at you Lord Glover ) then as Arya said last year; take a head .

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    91. hru said
      so you mean Dany doesn’t have to fight a white walkers with all her armies and North with Sansa gonna do this by themselves?

      ==================================================================
      Grail King: replied:
      You missed the point, Sansa as a non combatant, is doing what needs to be done to give, not only Danny, but Jon, Bran, other fighters and Non combatants, the support they need as they fight for the living.

      No where is anyone saying Sansa or Jon and Danny are doing this them selves; but as of right now, Sansa has food being brought to WF for the fight.
      Cersei is hoarding the food for herself and not taking care of the small folks ( ~1million of them ) who are food for the dead.
      Danny is going North, but instead of capturing the food supply, she in a rage burned it; now as she and Jon head north by boat, her army, will have to TAKE the food from small folks and towns, by force, making her looking like the enemy, instead of a savior.
      ———————————————————————————
      So why are you bringing up Danny’s help not being needed, when we ( Me and Ten Bears ) are talking about the damn food supply?
      This same question applies to hursta1:
      The North has recent history on their side, Danny has false info provided by her dead brother. It’s going to fall on the Starks and Danny to get them on board, no one said they aren’t fighting with her, but they will be skeptical of her and Tyrion and they have a right to be, given the history.

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    92. Asoiaf fan,
      Ten Bears,

      We need Bran to travel back to the Long Night of yore to see how the Others were defeated the first time. That could be crucial information (and he can maybe pick up the CotF’s fireball recipe along the way).

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    93. Gwidhiel,

      Gwidhiel,
      That is a great idea, actually. If Bran can time travel, why not go back to the first long night? How did the living drive back the dead? There weren’t any dragons back then, but they did it anyway. I believe the children of the forest helped Bran the builder to construct the magical wall as well, but now the wall is destroyed, and the cotf are extinct. Add to that there is now a wight dragon.

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    94. Gwidhiel,

      I don’t think my original response posted, but I agree . It would be a wonderful idea if Bran can time travel back to the 1st long night. There were no dragons and yet the ww were driven back. Unfortunately, the cotf are extinct and it was with their help, that Bran the builder was able to construct the wall. The wall was essential to keeping the white walkers contained. Now with it destroyed by the wight dragon, and there being no cotf , this creates an even bigger challenge.

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    95. No surprise now with the air date as James Hibberd also stated start of 2019 was very likely. January 2019 makes most sense given the Christmas schedule.

      As for Sansa she’s going to have to deal with Jon being a Targ, the Mad Kings daughter rocking up, potentially finding out it was Jamie who pushed Bran out of the window, I doubt her relationship with Arya will be great either. I can’t imagine she will do anything exciting with the White Walkers likely to attack Winterfell at some point but the politics will continue for her.

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    96. Gwidhiel:
      Asoiaf fan,
      Ten Bears,

      We need Bran to travel back to the Long Night of yore to see how the Others were defeated the first time. That could be crucial information (and he can maybe pick up the CotF’s fireball recipe along the way).

      What if there was no “Long Night of yore”?
      That’s the premise of my dual layer mega-tinfoil theory. 👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👩🏻‍🚀🤖

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    97. Ten Bears,

      That sounds interesting. I would be curious to find out what REALLY took place since , as we know, the truth does get distorted over time. Imagine 10,000 years worth of time?

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    98. Ten Bears: What if there was no “Long Night of yore”?
      That’s the premise of my dual layer mega-tinfoil theory. 👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👩🏻‍🚀🤖

      Intriguing. And yet, the Wall is very real, and was a very real obstacle to the WW until Dany donated a dragon to their cause. Is your theory that something happened way back in the mists of time, but wasn’t a straightforward Good vs. Evil battle?

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    99. Jon Snowed:
      As for Sansa she’s going to have to deal with Jon being a Targ, the Mad Kings daughter rocking up, potentially finding out it was Jamie who pushed Bran out of the window, I doubt her relationship with Arya will be great either. I can’t imagine she will do anything exciting with the White Walkers likely to attack Winterfell at some point but the politics will continue for her.

      I have the sense that the show felt it effectively resolved all tensions between Sansa and Arya in Season 7, so I’ll be surprised if they pick up that theme again. On the other hand, the S7 Winterfell subplot had me shaking my head and wondering what they were doing, so I guess I can’t rule that out. But it seems unlikely right now, to me.

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    100. Asoiaf fan,

      You make another good point about the CotF no longer being around to help. It seems like Bran has absorbed at least some of their knowledge, although when it comes to actually wielding magic, as it seems they could, I don’t think we’ve had evidence yet that Bran’s abilities extend beyond warging.

      He should definitely try to get their fireball recipe, though.💥

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    101. Grail King,

      She didnt burn the wagons in a “fit of rage” she was using her air assets to attack an enemy supply train. That is how war is fought. Yeah the food would be useful but its not like any of the kingdoms are actually prepared for what is being hyped up as the longest winter since the long night. Especially as someone above said with all the burning of the riverlands etc in TWotFK. The entire plot point is a mess in my opinion. Also as was pointed out above there will be plenty of horse for all once the battle starts. As for the small folk of the north and their food what did you think Sansa meant when she said they needed grain shipments from the other holds? Who do you think grows that food? So who are these small folk that havent already had their food taken by Sansa that Dany and company are going to plunder from? Those same small folk will be fighting against the WW, they will be eating the same food and Im sure none of them will be thinking “man it really stinks that I have to share this food with the army here to fight with us” no matter where they came from or what they have done up to that point.

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    102. Grail King,

      What history? What has Daenerys done to the north besides ride in to save ALL of their lives? If the north has the right to not trust the ONLY person that can save them then thats a them problem. She hasnt done anything to them for them not to trust her. Oh not to mention the king they choose decided on his own accord that she was the best chance any of them had and that she deserved to be queen. As for her taking her stuff and going back to Essos (where Im sure many a northman would prefer her go because they are pigheaded stubborn idiots that are violently xenophobic) that isnt missing your point. If your point was only to say how wonderful Sansa was you could do that without attempting to disparage another character. But you didnt you said yeah that evil Dany burnt all that food while cackling like a witch (I know you didnt say that but saying she burnt it in a fit of rage is the exact same thing). Oh and just to really twist the knife Sansa isnt as important as Dany or Jon when it comes to the survival of the north. I know food and grain but its like this: can the north survive the NK without Dany her dragons and army? No. Can the north survive without Sansa making sure the north has plenty of grain? Yes as long as someone else continues to ensure the grain shipments arrive. Now Im no fool I know how important food is to an army but one must first have an Army to feed. The NK cant be defeated by feeding him warm bread and a Hotpie made kidney pie (if you can and thats what happens I will eat ALL the crow). Oh and if Sansa was the true bringer of food she would have a squad of Stark men at the Inn right now in-scripting Hot Pie to the cause. Look Sansa will be important Im sure and while she isnt my favorite I have nothing against her. I just get triggered when someone goes after my queen.

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    103. Not sure it fits in here but apparently Kit Harrington will film constantly for S8, he will not have any breaks unlike Lena Headey.

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    104. hursta1,

      The last sentence really show how much Dany fans are delusional and living in their own bubble. after MY QUEEN. your fans are so obsessed with her that you can’t think normal anymore. If another character did what Dany did, give her actions to Sansa or Cercei, and you will say that action was evil, if Dany did it, it’s for the greater good. Personally I didn’t have a problem with the way she acted in battle, that’s war. I have a big problem the way she acted once the fight is over. Dany will be a great liberator somebody at the front of a big army or somebody that gives advice, but if you compare her action to for instance that of Jon, you clearly see which one is is the better fit for king/queen. Is it somebody that burns people alive without a trial, or the way Jon acts the most peaceful way possible. If Jon ever finds out how she acted in Essos, or even how she treated the Tarlys at the end, he will turn against her at first side.

      1. She didn’t save all of their lives, in fact she made sure the NK could pass beyond the wall. I know not her fault, and it would be horrible if somebody use that against her because she acted to save Jon and co. But she did not in fact save the north, she saved 6 people but putting thousands in danger.
      2. about the trust of the north, yes Jon chose her, but look how they reacted to Robb’s love interest. They will say he only chose her because of her beauty. And if you think the north will choose her over Jon once the truth comes out, your mistaken. They will force Jon to choose himself, or they will leave with their army. If Dany was supposed to be the Queen at the end of the show they never ever put the revelation of Jon being the true king after he submitted to her. If she was supposed to end on the throne, they would have made that clear at the end of season 6 and changed the story by letting him choosing her. But the show choose the other way around.
      3. About Sansa, if you really think she’s not important to the north your very mistaken. Look at where they ended her story at the end of season 7. The North went with her with how she treated LF and how the lords reacted to her. They see her almost as their queen. As long as Sansa is there they will not leave with their army, the northern lords will never choose Dany over her, not after how they helped each other with BoB, the LF problem and how she made sure the north has food etc and are safe and well in WF. Sansa is more important to the north than Dany (as far as the lords go), Dany is more important to the story. 2 Different things.
      4. About whose more important it’s just the way you look at it. Food is very important for a war like this. how long can this war be, months maybe years. How long can somebody live without food, couple of days max? The dragons are important, but not Dany, the Starks has Bran with warging abilities. He could control the dragons and there’s no need for Dany. Luckily for Dany fans, Bran has more important stuff to figure out and no time for that, so Dany stays important, as long as Bran hasn’t find out the truth about everything.

      But sometimes how far Dany needs to go once their fans sees her not as a 100% moral person with her big flaws. If she would burn Jon and Ghost alive they probably still follow her.

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    105. Jon Snowed:
      Not sure it fits in here but apparently Kit Harrington will film constantly for S8, he will not have any breaks unlike Lena Headey.

      Probably because he’s important to the whole story in season 8. The north in the beginning and the south at the end. Cercei is only important for the south part, first part of she series we’ll feel her presence when we see the GC but we don’t need to see her to feel her presence.

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    106. kevin1989,

      Jon Snowed,

      IMO, this is due to the action sequences. Battles take a lot of time to film and, sure, Kit Harington will be involved in all of them or almost all of them. Meanwhile, Cersei will not be involved in any of the action sequences directly, so Lena Headey will have breaks.

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    107. kevin1989,

      Nothing you said is true. Its all speculation and biased speculation at that. The north is going to reject Danys help because? The north will not survive without Dany. Thats period end of. If the stupid racist northern lords want to complain then they can fight the NK on their own. Jon knows this. He isnt a racist northerner though. He knows that literally every northman could leave winterfell and it wouldnt make a difference, But if Dany and the Dothraki and Unsullied and Dragons leave its living death for everyone on the planet. But hey at least the racist northern lords can stay racist and not have to humble themselves to ask for help from the one person that can help them. In my opinion if they cant put the survival of their people ahead of their own prejudice then they deserve to die.

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    108. kevin1989,

      I didnt read your very stupid comment at the end of the first paragraph. Jon will turn on Dany? Jon knows that the only thing that matters is winning. He even said the yesterdays wars dont matter when talking about the people that rebelled against his family took his home and tried to kill him but with Dany who is risking EVERYTHING to help him win the only war that matters he will turn on? Man thats about the dumbest thing Ive ever seen written here ever and I was here last year when someone thought dragons wouldnt really be a game changer when it came to war in Westeros. There were people (one) that actually thought the Lannisters would defeat Drogon. If you really knew Jons character like you think you do you wouldnt have said that because you would know Jon isnt a moron and knows the ONLY chance they have is Dany.

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    109. To be honest I really wonder what will happen with Cersei in the final few episodes, she is almost certain to die but I suspect that will happen once the White Walkers will be dealt with so I assume it’s the finale but then no idea what else can be in her story arc now Jamie has left.

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    110. hursta1:
      Grail King,

      She didnt burn the wagons in a “fit of rage” she was using her air assets to attack an enemy supply train.That is how war is fought.Yeah the food would be useful but its not like any of the kingdoms are actually prepared for what is being hyped up as the longest winter since the long night.Especially as someone above said with all the burning of the riverlands etc in TWotFK.The entire plot point is a mess in my opinion.Also as was pointed out above there will be plenty of horse for all once the battle starts.As for the small folk of the north and their food what did you think Sansa meant when she said they needed grain shipments from the other holds?Who do you think grows that food?So who are these small folk that havent already had their food taken by Sansa that Dany and company are going to plunder from?Those same small folk will be fighting against the WW, they will be eating the same food and Im sure none of them will be thinking “man it really stinks that I have to share this food with the army here to fight with us” no matter where they came from or what they have done up to that point.

      Sansa said send the extra food, all those people who flee will head to WF, she did not tell the loards all the food. No matter how you word it, Danny foolishly destroyed “her” supply line, she had more then enough men to take it without burning it.

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    111. That’s a good point Inga, Jon is always involved in big battles especially now if he becomes king of Westeros.

      Also I suspect the first two episodes will be almost exclusively in the North with perhaps a few updates in Kings Landing, Jame on his way to Winterfell and the Greyjoy storyline.

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    112. Grail King:

      My edit didn’t go through: Sansa does not know hot pie, never met him, he is in the south in the RL, maybe he comes with Jamie or someone, but he and Sansa never met, just Arya, Brienne and Pod.

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    113. kevin1989: 4. About whose more important it’s just the way you look at it. Food is very important for a war like this. how long can this war be, months maybe years. How long can somebody live without food, couple of days max? The dragons are important, but not Dany, the Starks has Bran with warging abilities. He could control the dragons and there’s no need for Dany. Luckily for Dany fans, Bran has more important stuff to figure out and no time for that, so Dany stays important, as long as Bran hasn’t find out the truth about everything.

      I think it’s : man can live only 3 minutes without air, 3 days with out water, and 30 days with out food. just something I remembered when young.

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    114. Jon Snowed:
      To be honest I really wonder what will happen with Cersei in the final few episodes, she is almost certain to die but I suspect that will happen once the White Walkers will be dealt with so I assume it’s the finale but then no idea what else can be in her story arc now Jamie has left.

      Yes, I’m curious too, especially because show Cersei has rather dramatically diverged from Book Cersei.

      Whether reading the books or watching the show, I’ve always had “what-if” thoughts/wishes about what it would have been like if the terrible villains (e.g. Joffrey, Ramsay) had been confronted face to face with the WW.

      I was surprised and disappointed that they didn’t really show what Littlefinger thought about the WW. True, he hadn’t seen them himself, but neither had Sansa, who nevertheless proceeded to prepare the North for a long winter that might include many people fleeing to Winterfell to take shelter from the WW. I don’t recall Littlefinger ever saying anything about the WW threat one way or another (if someone knows otherwise, please correct me).

      Our remaining villains are Cersei and Euron. Both of them saw the wight, and neither was moved by that first-hand witnessing to take the threat seriously enough to join Jon & Dany against the WW. So it would be satisfying – to me at least – to have one or both of them come face to face with the NK or a WW. I don’t necessarily think it’s going to happen, but I wouldn’t mind if it did.

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    115. Completely off-topic rambling thought about the WW: if at least some of the WW (not the NK) are Craster’s sons, does that mean they are Gilly’s brothers?

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    116. It’s interesting as Cersei just seems to be hanging there for the survivors of the North to deal with once the Nights king is dead.

      As for Cersei seeing the Whites it may well happen in the books too, in his original outline GRRM did stipulate that the survivors would have to deal with the threat in the North so this may give Dany a reason not to take Kings Landing in the books also although I expect the detail to be very different. I’ve resigned myself that Young Griff is just an obstacle for either Cersei or Dany and will die during Winds.

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    117. Jon Snowed:
      I’ve resigned myself that Young Griff is just an obstacle for either Cersei or Dany and will die during Winds.

      Oh, interesting. My own guess is that Cersei herself might not survive to the end of Winds – I’d be really surprised if she ends up following a similar path to Show Cersei’s. I agree about Young Griff being an obstacle for Dany, but depending on how & when they encounter each other his story could go on for a while. It seems like they’ve diverted some of his storyline to Jon in the show.

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    118. hursta1,

      How are the Northerners racist? This is such a bizarre assertion.

      Because they don’t want to be ruled or conquered by outsiders, who they don’t know or trust?

      Because they may have misgivings about the presence of a horde of known warmongering, raping, pillaging warriors in their lands?

      Sorry but this is ridiculous and it’s clear from your comments that you’ve lost all objectivity when it comes to analysing this show.

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    119. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      hursta1,

      How are the Northerners racist? This is such a bizarre assertion.

      Because they don’t want to be ruled or conquered by outsiders, who they don’t know or trust?

      Because they may have misgivings about the presence of a horde of known warmongering, raping, pillaging warriors in their lands?

      +1

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    120. Gwidhiel:
      Completely off-topic rambling thought about the WW: if at least some of the WW (not the NK) are Craster’s sons, does that mean they are Gilly’s brothers?

      Brothers, nephews, and uncles? That POS Craster was churning out incest babies for decades, wasn’t he?

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    121. Ten Bears: Brothers, nephews, and uncles? That POS Craster was churning out incest babies for decades, wasn’t he?

      I’m (slowly) re-watching earlier seasons with my husband (who’s at best only mildly engaged with the series). Last night we watched S3e4 – sooo satisfying to watch Craster die.

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    122. I used to think Young Griff would defeat Cersei until S6 of the show now having seen the path through S7 it makes sense if Cersei clings to the thrown and is saved again only by Dany heading North. I also think the Cersei/Euron alliance is coming from the books but again will be very different.

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    123. hursta1,

      Racist? how is that racist? They don’t like Dany, not because she Foreign, but because her father killed their families, and because they heard how she treated for instance the Tarly’s, for an outsider this will look like she’s like her father, burning people who don’t share her opinion and world view. She even stated it multiple times in the show: they can live in my world or die in their own. She has a very black and white view of the world, she’s 100% right everyone who doesn’t agree with her 100% is somebody who is bad. Look at how she treated Hizdahr, even when he made clear his family always wanted to abolish slavery, but at some points he doens’t see eye to eye with her so Hizdahr is 100% bad. Look at her actions in season 5, she fed somebody to her dragons even when she knew that man was innocent, without a trial without nothing. I’m not saying she’s wrong with her worldview, she’s right about almost everything, but the way she try to force this is wrong. Look how she spoke to Varys last season, Varys made it clear that his action were always for the good of the people, for somebody as Dany this should be a revelation right? because that is what see does right? So why does she made clear that if he does something out of line, she will kill him in an instance.

      Dany is a good example of the old saying: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

      Grail King: I think it’s : man can live only 3 minutes without air, 3 days with out water, and 30 days with out food. just something I remembered when young.

      True something like that, but depends on the person. But we can assume that the war with the WW will be much much longer than 30 days. probably more like 30 weeks or even months.

      Gwidhiel:
      Completely off-topic rambling thought about the WW: if at least some of the WW (not the NK) are Craster’s sons, does that mean they are Gilly’s brothers?

      I don’t think Sam will ever have a good relationship with her family then.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      A true Dany fan, most of them lose their objectivity when it comes to her. She’s the female warrior who will vanquish all evil in this world. all hail overlord Dannerys will all her 1000 titles. Long may she reign.

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    124. kevin1989,

      I’m not a fan of Dany and I fully agree that many of her actions were contraversial to say the least. But look at what Jon did: he hanged the mutinees including Olly. And Olly had a legit reason to hate wildlings: not only they slaughtered his parents and everyon he knew, but none of them expressed any regrets or tried to ask forgiveness. So, Jon was as unsuccessful in dealing with the crisis as Dany.
      As for Dany, IMO deep in her heart she regrets burning Tarlies and other things. When she looks at Jon or speaks of him, you can notice that she sees a leader she herself would like to be. Jon has little power but much more intuition how to exercise it in a right way. And Dany haven’t got that intuition. She knows how to execrice power only among the Dothraki, but everywhere else she is an allien equally clumsy with both her power and her mersy – she simply can’t do anything right.
      However, she has a very good chance to be accepted in the North as an ally. After all, she already has a certain record: she went beyond the Wall, she risked her life and saved Jon’s team. So, she is a fried found on a battlefield, and that should be enough to earn an initial trust of the nothern lords.
      Unfortunately, I’m affraid that Dany will do something stupid after Jon’s parentage is revealed. The conflict is necessary to raise the stakes and add suspence, so it’s inevitable. IMO, the showrunners made Dany to burn the Tarlies just to set it up: now Dany has a legit reason not to trust Sam and take the information about Jon’s true status as a ruse. But anyway, there shouldn’t be any major ramifications and everything should be sorted out in a few episodes.

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    125. BeardedOnion:

      Besides, Arya’s skillset is utterly worthless against undead and Jaime is 1 handed lol.

      I bet Arya could take down quite a few wights with dragonglass-tipped arrows. (I’ve just begun reading the thread, so I apologize in advance if anyone else has already posted this.)

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    126. Gwidhiel: I’m (slowly) re-watching earlier seasons with my husband (who’s at best only mildly engaged with the series). Last night we watched S3e4 – sooo satisfying to watch Craster die.

      Only “mildly engaged”, huh? Well, the best is yet to come. S3e5, “Kissed by Fire”, is one of my favorites. It’s got Ygritte luring Jon Snow into the cave. It’s got the first of many foretellings of the Hound’s prominence, i.e., Beric Dondarrion telling him: “Go in peace, Sandor Clegane. The Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet.”
      And of course, there’s still over a season’s worth of the Arya & Sandor Traveling Road Show to look forward to, including memorable scenes in two of my favorite GoT episodes out of all 67 aired to date: S4e1, “Two Chickens” – umm “Two Swords”, and S4e7, “Mockingbird.”

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    127. Wolfish:
      BeardedOnion:

      I bet Arya could take down quite a few wights with dragonglass-tipped arrows. (I’ve just begun reading the thread, so I apologize in advance if anyone else has already posted this.)

      I like your idea! On 12/7/17, 3:33 pm, I had disputed the “worthless skill set” critique:

      —————————

      “Besides, Arya’s skillset is utterly worthless against undead and Jaime is 1 handed…”
      ………………..

      Oh, I wouldn’t say Arya’s skill set is utterly worthless against the Undead.
      Remember when the Night King grabbed Bran’s wrist? Bran freaked. But if he tried that with Arya, she’d do that nifty hand-switch flip move with her VS dagger and…bye bye Night King.

      (Where’s Ol’ Hanging Gun Wimsey? I wonder if he’d say that you don’t give Arya a Chekhov’s VS dagger unless it’s going to be “fired” in Act III.)

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    128. Alba Stark:

      I don’t see Jon having a positive reaction to his parentage and I don’t think Arya will take it well either. She and Jon were outsiders together when they were growing up, and the one part of Arya she could never let go of was Needle, her present from Jon.

      I find it fascinating that so many people believe Jon will suffer some sort of massive identity crisis when he’s informed he’s not Ned’s son, or that Arya will face a similar interior conflict upon discovering he’s actually her cousin. Yes, it’s going to come as a shock. But political implications aside, I would think that on a personal, familial level it will also be profoundly satisfying, albeit bittersweet: Lyanna, Ned’s beloved sister, lives through her son, and their father didn’t, in actuality, dishonor their mother. In a world where women are valued chiefly for their ability to bear children, a young woman’s death is considered particularly tragic if she has not fulfilled that role. But Lyanna did, and I think that realizing that–that when they look upon Jon’s face they see her flesh and blood, not Ned’s–the Starks will finally be able to put the ghosts and the discord of the past to bed.

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    129. Inga: After all, she already has a certain record: she went beyond the Wall, she risked her life and saved Jon’s team.

      I doubt the Northerners will be happy about that once it becomes apparent that that mission specifically led to The Wall being brought down and the Night King armed with a dragon.

      If refugees start turning up at Winterfell telling tales of the Night King torching their castles and villages, I think Jon and Dany are going to have a serious leadership crisis on their hands.

      Let’s say, for example, that word reaches Winterfell that Deepwood Motte has been razed to the ground and most of its inhabitants slaughtered. How would Lord Glover – who was already losing faith in Jon last season, who resented Robb for the mistakes he made which resulted in his subjects being brutalised, and whom obviously has no great love for the Targaryens or so-called “foreign whores” – react upon hearing about Jon and Dany’s missteps? Not to mention their relationship and Jon’s parentage.

      Not very well, I’d imagine.

      There are ways in which the producers could try and avoid these complications, but as far as I’m concerned it really feels like they are setting Jon, and by extension Dany, up for a fall in terms of how they are perceived in The North.

      But the fight against the White Walkers will eventually oblige them to put their problems aside until after the war; after which they’ll probably fall in line behind whoever’s still living, probably with a little political wrangling from Tyrion and co.

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    130. Inga:
      But anyway, there shouldn’t be any major ramifications and everything should be sorted out in a few episodes.

      Well it will have to be because there are only 6 episodes. 😉 But it sounds like you think that the issue of Jon’s status as the rightful Targaryen heir is something that in the end won’t be a huge deal?

      I don’t think Jon initially, and of his own accord, will care about being heir to the Iron Throne. But I’m convinced that it will throw Daenerys into an existential tailspin – they’ve been priming us for many seasons to expect this, with the mind-numbing recitation of her various titles, and her frequent assertions that she is the last Targaryen, etc. If she didn’t think she was the rightful heir she’d have never come to Westeros.

      You mention Dany not trusting Sam’s word about Jon’s status, but Sam’s word isn’t what will establish the fact of Jon’s status. If Gilly hasn’t conveniently brought the old grand maester’s diary with her, they could always send a raven to the Citadel to confirm the documentation of Rhaegar’s annulment (ugh, still don’t like that but whatever). But they don’t really even need to do that because Sam’s credibility on the matter will be largely irrelevant: Bran can just travel back to key moments in Dany’s life, conversations that she had with Viserys or Drogo or whoever that no one else will know about, to establish the authenticity of his information.

      What seems to me a more likely source of difficulty for Dany will be Sam’s mistrust/dislike of her. I’m wondering if maybe Sam will be the one to make public the fact that Dany’s not the heir to the throne, something that perhaps Jon and Bran had wanted to keep under wraps. Or perhaps Sam will just mention it to Tyrion or Varys, both of whom have doubts about Daenerys’s leadership abilities, and might be inclined to support Jon instead.

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    131. Ten Bears: Only “mildly engaged”, huh? Well, the best is yet to come. S3e5, “Kissed by Fire”, is one of my favorites. It’s got Ygritte luring Jon Snow into the cave. It’s got the first of many foretellings of the Hound’s prominence, i.e., Beric Dondarrion telling him:“Go in peace, Sandor Clegane. The Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet.” And of course, there’s still over a season’s worth of the Arya & Sandor Traveling Road Show to look forward to, including memorable scenes in two of my favorite GoT episodes out of all 67 aired to date: S4e1, “Two Chickens” – umm “Two Swords”, and S4e7, “Mockingbird.”

      Oh yes! Perhaps we’ll watch that next month. I love the man to death but he is frustrating when it comes to Game of Thrones: he hasn’t been watching it, but has insisted that no one discuss it in front of him in case he does want, eventually, to watch it. He’s slowly, so slowly, catching up but isn’t inclined to binge watch shows as a general rule. The original plan was for him to be caught up by this past July so that we could watch the Season 7 episodes together. As evidenced by the fact that we’re still early in Season 3, that didn’t happen.

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    132. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I don’t think there is a real potential for discontent in the North. Sure, the writers may invent it but it will feel forced – at leas for me. First of all, Jon has aleady persuaded the lords that the NK will break the Wall one way or another and it’s legit to assume that he had other options: after all, no-one starts a war without knowing how to break the major defence. So, if an arguement occurs, there will be plenty of counterarguements to suppress it.
      Moreover, if we are looking for someone to blame for the loss of the dragon, it wasn’t Dany – it was Tyrion. The wight hunt was a stupid idea which gave little to no profit, as Cersei wasn’t persuaded and Tyrion should have known better that his sister would rather die or bend a knee to the Night King, than to allow her enemies prevail. In general Tyrion looks very bad in this situation: who can deny that he came up with the wight hunt idea just to get Jon killed? He tried to talk Dany out of rescuring his life and then he allowed Cersei to trick them all. And before that he wrecked Dany’s invasion with his all-too-clever plans. So, in the eyes of the northerners, Tyrion should be either a fool or an enemy or both, though in reality he may be nether, and the easiest way would be to unleash all the negative emotions upon him.

      Meanwhile, Dany has to do something extra to provoke negative emotions. For the moment, she looks like a NATO jet landing in some CEE airport after a more or less successful mission, so by every rule she has to receive a warm welcomming and condolences for her loss.

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    133. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      Sam won’t be thrilled with Dany when he learbs she roasted his brother and father, Dickon and the Dick.

      Oh yes, that’s exactly what I mean! If it were just his dad that Dany toasted, Sam might not feel too badly about it but I think he’s openly expressed his affection for Dickon, and the show devoted precious Season 7 screen time to establishing Dickon Tarly as a Nice, Decent Guy. There’s no way that isn’t going to come back to haunt Daenerys. And the fact that the show made a point of showing us the maesters’ decision to withhold the info from Sam suggests to me that it’s going to be Rather Important in the Future.

      The point I was trying to make above is that it doesn’t matter if Daenerys is suspicious of Sam’s motivations, because Sam isn’t the key to establishing Jon’s true identity. Bran – and the dragons – will do that.

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    134. Inga,

      ”Moreover, if we are looking for someone to blame for the loss of the dragon, it wasn’t Dany – it was Tyrion. The wight hunt was a stupid idea which gave little to no profit, as Cersei wasn’t persuaded and Tyrion should have known better that his sister would rather die or bend a knee to the Night King, than to allow her enemies prevail. In general Tyrion looks very bad in this situation: who can deny that he came up with the wight hunt idea just to get Jon killed? He tried to talk Dany out of rescuring his life and then he allowed Cersei to trick them all. And before that he wrecked Dany’s invasion with his all-too-clever plans. So, in the eyes of the northerners, Tyrion should be either a fool or an enemy or both, though in reality he may be nether, and the easiest way would be to unleash all the negative emotions upon him…”

      Although I hope that does not happen, what you’ve articulated makes a lot of sense. Blame the Demon Monkey!

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    135. Gwidhiel,

      Ah! Sorry if I misunderstood.

      Meanwhile (*dons tinfoil suit 👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👩🏻‍🚀🤖*), I still wonder if Sam and Bran will realize it’s best for all concerned to keep the secret of Jon’s paternity secret – even from Jon. What good will come out of disclosing it? None, as far as I can see. It can only create havoc, at the worst possible time.

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    136. Inga,

      I disagree that there are counter arguments against Jon and Dany being culpable for The Wall falling, certainly from the Northerners’ perspective.

      The Northerners know their history and their folklore, and The Wall stood for thousands of years until Jon and Dany recklessly went beyond it and the Night King got hold of one of her dragons. The blame lies pretty squarely with them.

      And they can’t really pass the buck to Tyrion, since he’s a Lannister and Hand to Daenerys and Jon went to Dragonstone on his invitation. So they’re all pretty closely entwined regardless.

      And the Northerners won’t blame Tyrion for Jon’s decisions. He was their King, not Tyrion. He’s the one they’ll hold responsible, especially since they didn’t want him to leave The North in the first place.

      Anyway, they’re unlikely to be fully informed on exactly who came up with which plans or of Tyrion’s role in Dany’s failed war efforts.

      Plus, to be fair to Tyrion, he begged Daenerys not to go north of The Wall. If she’d listened to him, The Wall might still be standing.

      I don’t think the Northerners will be particularly grateful about Dany rescuing Jon if they don’t think he should have been in that situation in the first place, and since it led to the Night King getting his hands on a dragon.

      I think the last thing they’ll be thinking about is offering Dany condolences for losing the dragon that now threatens all of their existences.

      She’s a foreign invader. A southerner. A Targaryen. An unchosen queen. A temptress (if they find out about she and Jon’s relationship).

      They have every reason to dislike her and be furious with Jon. Glossing over all of this would be downright bizarre, in my opinion.

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    137. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:

      She’s a foreign invader. A southerner. A Targaryen. An unchosen queen. A temptress.

      You should write for telenovelas! I swear, I read this and immediately heard it in Spanish (dramatic announcer’s voice in head):

      Ella es un invasora extranjera. Una sureña. Una Targaryen. Una reina no elegida. Una tentadora…

      In all seriousness, though: Given that last season’s writing was more holey than Swiss cheese, I wouldn’t be surprised by anything “downright bizarre” in S8. I’m hoping for the best, but…

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    138. Gwidhiel:

      But they don’t really even need to do that because Sam’s credibility on the matter will be largely irrelevant: Bran can just travel back to key moments in Dany’s life, conversations that she had with Viserys or Drogo or whoever that no one else will know about, to establish the authenticity of his information.

      That only establishes that he has this magical ability; it doesn’t necessarily tell you that he is giving you accurate information. For example, he can mention key moments in Dany’s life that only she would know about, but then he can claim that he (Bran) is R+L’s son or something ridiculous like that and that’d be completely false. I’m not sure why any stranger should take Bran at his word.

      Gwidhiel:

      What seems to me a more likely source of difficulty for Dany will be Sam’s mistrust/dislike of her. I’m wondering if maybe Sam will be the one to make public the fact that Dany’s not the heir to the throne, something that perhaps Jon and Bran had wanted to keep under wraps. Or perhaps Sam will just mention it to Tyrion or Varys, both of whom have doubts about Daenerys’s leadership abilities, and might be inclined to support Jon instead.

      Maybe, but what would that do exactly? With the exception of Varys, none of her followers follow her on the basis of she being the heir to House Targaryen. It’s also not as if Tyrion or Varys have followers of their own that would also be “jumping ship”.

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    139. Wolfish,

      Hahaha! Now I’ve got this image of Sansa and Daenerys arguing in Spanish in the Winterfell Great Hall while trading slaps and pulling each other’s hair as Jon tries to separate them.

      Oh, and I totally agree about the producers’ potential for the downright bizarre. I was going to add a little caveat at the end of my comment about not knowing what to expect after Season 7. We should all probably start adding that to every piece of speculation we come up with during the off-season, because I don’t think anybody can predict the producers’ intentions these days. 🙂

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    140. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      Meanwhile (*dons tinfoil suit 👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👨‍🚀👩🏻‍🚀🤖*), I still wonder if Sam and Bran will realize it’s best for all concerned to keep the secret of Jon’s paternity secret – even from Jon. What good will come out of disclosing it? None, as far as I can see. It can only create havoc, at the worst possible time.

      Dons matching cap 👩🏼‍🚀👩🏼‍🚀👩🏼‍🚀👩🏼‍🚀🤖

      I could totally see that happening. I could see Jon deciding that he’s honor-bound to tell Sansa that she is the rightful heir to Winterfell since he isn’t Ned’s son at all. And I could see Jon, Bran, and Sansa agreeing to say nothing at least until the wars are over, because as you say, what purpose would it serve?

      But although I think that keeping it to themselves might make a lot of sense, I strongly believe that D&D are going to milk this for every bit of drama that they can. So I don’t see it staying secret for long, even if that’s what Jon intends.
      • If Jon and Bran decided it was for the best to keep his parentage to themselves, I could see Sam being the one to spill the beans, for the aforementioned reason.
      • Or Gilly could inadvertently let the cat out of the bag – if she isn’t in on the plan to keep things secret and she hears someone referring to Rhaegar, she could innocently mention reading about his annulment, and set things in motion.
      • Or if the Stark sisters are in on the secret I could see Arya disliking Daenerys’s imperious ways and deciding to put her in her place.

      Many possible ways to spill the beans.

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    141. Jay Targ: That only establishes that he has this magical ability; it doesn’t necessarily tell you that he is giving you accurate information.For example, he can mention key moments in Dany’s life that only she would know about, but then he can claim that he (Bran) is R+L’s son or something ridiculous like that and that’d be completely false.I’m not sure why any stranger should take Bran at his word.

      True. The proof of Jon’s Targaryen heritage has already been delivered: Drogon’s non-aggressive interest in him.

      Although I think you’re right to point out that Bran’s honesty could reasonably be doubted by a stranger, I believe that part of the reason that they’ve made him so detached from everyone around him, so unfeeling, is to establish that he no longer has personal interest in current events (unless defeating the NK is a personal interest). But regardless, even if she wants to doubt Bran’s honesty, Dany won’t be able to ignore her dragons’ reactions to Jon.

      In thinking about how they might set this all up, it seems to me that it might make sense for them to devote an extended scene on the journey from White Harbor to Winterfell. And during that journey, Dany might take further note that her dragons are attracted to Jon, and perhaps even start to foster a relationship between Jon and Rhaegal. The logic there would be to get that relationship underway before she finds out about Jon’s parentage. If Jon’s already bonded with Rhaegal, Dany will be in an even more vulnerable position when the news is sprung on her that she isn’t the heir. Maximum drama potential!

      Jay Targ:

      Maybe, but what would that do exactly?With the exception of Varys, none of her followers follow her on the basis of she being the heir to House Targaryen.It’s also not as if Tyrion or Varys have followers of their own that would also be “jumping ship”.

      I believe that’s also Tyrion’s reason for following her, no? Jorah will be on her side no matter what, and Missandei. Who else from Team Dany will be arriving with them via White Harbor? The Dothraki & Unsullied are marching and won’t arrive for a while yet.

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    142. Gwidhiel: True. The proof of Jon’s Targaryen heritage has already been delivered: Drogon’s non-aggressive interest in him.

      Although I think you’re right to point out that Bran’s honesty could reasonably be doubted by a stranger, I believe that part of the reason that they’ve made him so detached from everyone around him, so unfeeling, is to establish that he no longer has personal interest in current events (unless defeating the NK is a personal interest). But regardless, even if she wants to doubt Bran’s honesty, Dany won’t be able to ignore her dragons’ reactions to Jon.

      That’s an interesting point you make about one of the reasons the show runners could have made Bran so detached, I hadn’t thought of that. It may make him seem more credible or just outright creep people out. As to the rest, I guess we’ll have to wait and see how the dragons continue reacting to him. Thus far we only have 7×05 to go off, and I think they missed an opportunity to further Jon’s relationship with them in 7×06.

      Gwidhiel:
      I believe that’s also Tyrion’s reason for following her, no? Jorah will be on her side no matter what, and Missandei. Who else from Team Dany will be arriving with them via White Harbor? The Dothraki & Unsullied are marching and won’t arrive for a while yet.

      That’s not the impression I got, as that would entirely diminish Tyrion’s declaration of his belief in her that we saw in 6×10.
      I mean he went from being very skeptical of what Jorah was saying in 5×06 to this in 6×10. I’d say that her being a Targaryen had very little to do with it.

      My understanding is that the Unsullied are sailing with Dany and Jon, and the plan is to meet up with Dothraki on the Kingsroad so that they arrive to Winterfell together (I could be wrong though).

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    143. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      “…I was going to add a little caveat at the end of my comment about not knowing what to expect after Season 7. We should all probably start adding that to every piece of speculation we come up with during the off-season, because I don’t think anybody can predict the producers’ intentions these days. 🙂”
      …………………..

      That is probably a good idea at this point. Any suggestions for a shorthand term or abbreviation? I’ve been using “👨‍🚀👩🏻‍🚀” to denote tinfoil helmet. I think Gwidhiel uses “🤖” as the closest to tinfoil hat.

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    144. Gwidhiel,

      “…Or if the Stark sisters are in on the secret I could see Arya disliking Daenerys’s imperious ways and deciding to put her in her place..”
      ………………

      But…but Arya is the ultimate Targaryen Dragon Rider fangirl. Remember how she was gushing about Visenya Targaryen during her scene with Tywin?

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    145. Ten Bears:
      But…but Arya is the ultimate Targaryen Dragon Rider fangirl. Remember how she was gushing about Visenya Targaryen during her scene with Tywin?

      Sure. But there’s loving the idea of a strong, mythical, kick-ass, dragon-riding queen vs being confronted with the reality of a strong, kick-ass, dragon-riding queen who’s very hung up on her status and titles, and is laying claim to your beloved brother’s affections and/or denying his surprise rightful claim to the throne. My 🤖sense🤖 is that Arya might be initially enchanted but quickly sour on Daenerys. Or not!

      Also: Visenya wasn’t just a dragon-rider, she also was a swordswoman. The famous Valyrian blade Dark Sister was made for her. I’d guess that part of the story appealed to Arya as much as if not more than the dragon-riding part. As we’ve discussed in other threads, Daenerys has no sword-fighting abilities at all. Arya won’t get a chance to show off her own skills by dueling with Daenerys.

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    146. Jay Targ: That’s an interesting point you make about one of the reasons the show runners could have made Bran so detached, I hadn’t thought of that.It may make him seem more credible or just outright creep people out.As to the rest, I guess we’ll have to wait and see how the dragons continue reacting to him.Thus far we only have 7×05 to go off, and I think they missed an opportunity to further Jon’s relationship with them in 7×06.

      That’s not the impression I got, as that would entirely diminish Tyrion’s declaration of his belief in her that we saw in 6×10.
      I mean he went from being very skeptical of what Jorah was saying in 5×06 to this in 6×10.I’d say that her being a Targaryen had very little to do with it.

      My understanding is that the Unsullied are sailing with Dany and Jon, and the plan is to meet up with Dothraki on the Kingsroad so that they arrive to Winterfell together (I could be wrong though).

      I agree with you about the missed opportunity, although because I think they’ve been deliberately toying with the audience and setting things up for maximum emotionally wrenching fireworks (esp. for die-hard fans of Dany), I do wonder if they wanted them to hook up first – to have Dany fall for him hook, line, and sinker – before Dany starts to entrust her other dragon to him.

      (By the way, I’m not saying I want this to happen. It just seems like a very good way for D&D to exploit the dramatic potential.)

      It’s been a while since I’ve seen Season 5, so I defer to your interpretation of Tyrion’s motives in allying himself with Dany. But I do think Season 7 showed him having some not-insubstantial doubts about her judgement, so he could abandon her if given sufficient motive and opportunity.

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    147. Gwidhiel: I agree with you about the missed opportunity, although because I think they’ve been deliberately toying with the audience and setting things up for maximum emotionally wrenching fireworks (esp. for die-hard fans of Dany), I do wonder if they wanted them to hook up first – to have Dany fall for him hook, line, and sinker – before Dany starts to entrust her other dragon to him.

      (By the way, I’m not saying I want this to happen. It just seems like a very good way for D&D to exploit the dramatic potential.)

      Perhaps, but I can’t see them going in that direction. Although that would surely put an end to the notion, usually put forth by Dany haters, that D&D are huge Dany fans.

      Gwidhiel:
      It’s been a while since I’ve seen Season 5, so I defer to your interpretation of Tyrion’s motives in allying himself with Dany. But I do think Season 7 showed him having some not-insubstantial doubts about her judgement, so he could abandon her if given sufficient motive and opportunity.

      Sure, but abandon her for what? From what I see, Jon and Dany are a team right now and it’s difficult to guess what will happen when his true identity is revealed. But even if we were to split them and Tyrion were asked to chose between them, I don’t think the answer is that clear cut.
      This season we saw Davos questioning his judgement when he suggested going North of the wall for a wight. We saw Sansa questioning his judgement when deciding the fates of Ned Umber and Alys Karstark. We saw Sansa and the Northern lords questioning Jon’s judgement when he decided to go meet Daenerys, and the Northern lords continued questioning him when he still hadn’t returned. In choosing Jon, Tyrion would still face very similar problems as he did with Daenerys. I’d go as far as to suggest that Daenerys is easier to mold and influence than Jon is. We see Jon doing the right thing consistently, but in doing so he completely alienates a large part of those who follow him, as seen in Season 5 with the Nights Watch and in Season 7 with the Northern Lords.

      But I think we’re starting to go off-topic of what we were initially discussing, which was how the revelation of Jon’s identity would influence Tyrion or Varys, and perhaps others. So with that in mind, even if it were to cause Tyrion/Varys to side with Jon, I don’t see Dany losing much without them on her side if I’m being honest.

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    148. Jay Targ,

      Well I can’t disagree with you about some of the choices that Jon has made, to the dismay of those around him. I think that for Varys and Tyrion the difference would be that Jon’s decisions might sometimes be unstrategic, but they’re made for the right reasons. Mind you, I’m not committed to this idea, but I can’t see what purpose the conversation the two of them had about watching reckless rulers do terrible things served, if not to alert the audience that they have misgivings about Daenerys.

      As for what she would lose if she lost Tyrion and Varys: well that’s a good question! She’d lose a large part of her already-tenuous connection to the people of Westeros; only Jorah would remain.

      Varys has always been one of my favorite characters, and to be honest I’m puzzled about his purpose in the story at this point. Actually, do we know he accompanied them North? I can’t imagine what he’d do there. And surely Dany wouldn’t leave Dragonstone as empty as she’d found it – she’d leave a skeletal force there? So maybe Varys won’t be part of the picture when Jon’s parentage is revealed.

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    149. Whilst I agree Jon’s heritage being made public will cause some political turmoil however it would seriously suck for the overall story if it never comes out so I feel we are getting this in episode 1 and 2 before the main battle with the white walkers kicks in and the humans are forced to work together irrespective of allegiances.

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    150. In terms of how they set it up I am expecting Bran and Sam to inform Jon at the end of episode 1. Second episode we’ll get Jamie arriving with no army, Bran perhaps remembering it was Jamie who pushed him out the window and I expect Dany finding out about Jon indirectly, essentially I am expecting lots of turmoil all as the White Walkers rampage through the North taking the Last Hearth etc.

      I’m expecting lots of bickering and mistrust right up until the Whites get to Winterfell.

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    151. Inga,

      True but there’s one major difference between the 2. Dany felt righteous by her actions, Jon felt burdened. For instance Miri Maaz Dur, I’m not saying Miri was right what she did to Drogo, but it’s understandable to do to the leader of a group that raped and killed your friends and family. Dany doesn’t show an inch of burden for what she did. Jon if you for instance take the murder of Olly, he showed that burden multiple times, he showed that he somehow understood Olly’s action, he told Sansa and Danny both what he did and how it burdened himself. I’m not saying that Dany is evil never stated that, I understand where she’s coming from and what she’s trying to do, but she has some major flaws that could turn dangerous in situations.

      About the truth coming out: I think it will come out just after the battle of winterfell. I think they will keep it a secret until they really need to tell.

      About people worrying that season 8 will be a downer because of season 7. I think that it could surprise us, I see season 7 and 8 as one big season, just like season 5 from Breaking bad, part 1 and 2 had both 8 episodes, split in 2 seasons. part 1 I would place as one of the least exciting parts of the story. And part 2 as one of the best for the show. So just see season 7 as the set up for a big season 8. Let’s hope it’s like season 5 of Breaking bad.

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    152. Grail King,

      She did not say extra. I have the episode up right now. She says if they dont use it they will give it back but nothing about only shipping the extra grain. Sansa has already taken ALL the food in the north. Do you think the northerners are mad at her? The only people that believe that the north and team Dany are going to be enemies are those people that already dislike Daenerys. Its wishful thinking (kinda messed up that people want the north to demonstrate more of that violent xenophobia they are famous for) and only makes sense in that context. Otherwise it makes the northerners look like the fools that they are that care more about where someone is from than the survival of their line. Maybe they were meant to be portrayed that way but to me the north of Westeros is basically the deep south of the US. It sucks for all involved that the NK couldnt invade somewhere else where people are interested in actually surviving. Just so you guys know if it goes down the way you want it too it wont be a good look for the northerners. I actually hope the vale or the Umbers abandon the cause over some stupid made up reason like Dany is a foreigner and we are super xenophobic up here, and are later executed as traitors after the war is won. See thats the thing people will remember who fought and who ran.

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    153. Gwidhiel,

      ”Varys has always been one of my favorite characters, and to be honest I’m puzzled about his purpose in the story at this point. Actually, do we know he accompanied them North? I can’t imagine what he’d do there. And surely Dany wouldn’t leave Dragonstone as empty as she’d found it – she’d leave a skeletal force there? So maybe Varys won’t be part of the picture when Jon’s parentage is revealed.”

      —————————

      I wonder if Varys and Tyrion’s repeated concerns that they have not been able to rein in Daeny’s “fire and blood” instinct has been giving them reservations about their conviction that she’s the best hope for the Seven Kingdoms. (Like Tyrion, I’d be troubled by her “Kneel or Fry”, take-no-prisoners ultimatum to Randyll and Dickon Tarly.) Tyrion even explained to Cersei in S7e7 that the ability to restrain Daeny’s worst impulses was the reason he supports her – and how she differs from Cersei:

      Tyrion: “…Because I think she will make the world a better place.”

      Cersei: “You said she’d destroy King’s Landing.”

      Tyrion: “She knows herself. She chose an advisor who would check her worst impulses instead of feeding them. That’s the difference between you.”

      I go back to Varys’s conversation with Tyrion in S5e1 (excerpts below) about Varys’s original plan with Illyrio for a Targaryean Restoration and his current definition of the ideal monarch; and wonder how Varys and Tyrion will feel if they learn that Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryean, i.e., has “the right family name”, is “gentler than Stannis”, and lacks Daeny’s “worst impulses”?

      Personally, I figure Jon is just the right person to check Daeny’s “worst impulses”, and help her see the big picture. He’s demonstrated that already. And he’s not caught up with titles, crowns, and knee-bending. It’d be great if the two of them work in unison, as equal partners. (Is that too progressive an idea for GoT?) Otherwise…might Varys or Tyrion – or both – reluctantly conclude that Jon Snow is the leader they should be supporting?

      —————-

      Excerpts – Varys & Tyrion in S5e1:

      Varys: “We tried to do what was best for the realm by supporting a Targaryen restoration. And thus began the chain of mistakes that has led us both here. Things have gotten worse, not better.
      Westeros needs to be saved from itself.”
      ***.

      Tyrion: “You risked your life, your position, everything [to free him from dungeon]. Why? You’re not family. You owe me nothing.”

      Varys: “I didn’t do it for you. I did it for the Seven Kingdoms.”.
      ***

      Tyrion: “What is it you want exactly?”

      Varys: Peace. Prosperity. A land where the powerful do not prey on the powerless.

      ****

      Varys: “Perhaps. And perhaps we’ve grown so used to horror, we assume there’s no other way. If you sat on the Iron Throne, would you spread misery throughout the land?”

      Tyrion: “I will never sit on the Iron Throne.”

      Varys: “No, you won’t. But you could help another climb those steps and take that seat. The Seven Kingdoms need someone stronger than Tommen, but gentler than Stannis. A monarch who can intimidate the high lords and inspire the people. A ruler loved by millions with a powerful army and the right family name.”

      Tyrion: “Good luck finding him.”

      Varys: “Who said anything about ‘him’?”

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    154. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      You see, it’s very hard for me to buy this idea of Dany as a foreign invader in the North. She is an superpower ally which may be annoying and selfish from time to time, but still she is the best thing that can happen to the North or the least of the evils. With the Wall breached, the only question will be whether Dany and Jon will make it to Winterfell in time. And the North has to become aware of this fact in the very beginning of the next episode, because Bran will hardly withhold this information. IMO, he and Sansa will send ravens ordering all the northerners to evacuate to Winterfell (that was their defense plan), and then all of them will pray for the “savors” to come in time. There won’t be time for whinging.

      And as for Dany being seen as a temptress, I would rather expect the North to see Jon as a tempter (and a successful one). After all, it was Jon who persuaded Dany to join his war not visa versa. All in all, his siplomatic mission was 100% success: he got everything one could ever want from dragonglass to dragons + the bride with a dowry and he is on top of the things even despite of the fact that he surrendered his position as the KITN – Dany will be making him the King of the Seven Kingdoms. So, who cares? If everything goes well and the living prevail over the dead, the North will rule the world. What’s to whinge about?

      kevin1989,

      Sure, Dany and Jon are rather different. Dany likes killing, Jon doesn’t and all of that comes down to the fact that she is a women and he is a man. I don’t want to sound at a sexist but it’s just how it is. Dany – or any other woman for that matter – is an uderdog in any fight, so for her killing a bad guy feels like an empowerment. Jon, on the other hand, has always been rather good in martial arts, so he never felt a need to assert himself through killing someone (maybe, with an exeption of the NK). But there is no major contraversy, because Dany wants to assert hersef not only by killing bad guys but also by gaining love of the good ones. Jon’s acknowledgement met a great deal to her, and IMO it’s save to say that she can rely on Jon. For him she is the top priority after the NK: he loves her and he won’t leave her no matter what. If she does something stupid, he will try to reason her – he grew up with a rather nasty forster mother and a rather awful sister, so he is well prepared to handle any female hysteric. And Dany will eventually choose him above everything else, because all she ever wanted has been HOME and Jon is the only one who can give it to her.

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    155. hursta1,

      “Sansa has already taken ALL the food in the north. Do you think the northerners are mad at her?”
      ————

      Wait, what??? Sansa didn’t “take” anyone’s food. She’s been trying to get the Northern houses to contribute to WF’s grain storage facilities so they will have food for the long winter/war to come.

      I just don’t see how Sansa can be vilified in this regard. Training to fight and making dragonglass weapons is wonderful, but a real forward-thinking leader makes sure the soldiers – and civilians – have sustenance.

      Food shortages aren’t as sexy as fire-breathing dragons, swordfighters, and ice zombies, but they’re real world problems that the show has been forecasting over and over again since S1, even if in the background in some scenes. (The conclusion of my favorite scene in S4e1 “Two Swords”, shows Arya with Needle and Sandor munching a drumstick, riding off, but in the background the Riverlands are scorched and smoking.) Throughout all seven seasons, there have been constant references to famine.

          As Bronn once explained in S2e8, during wartime, eg a siege, “food’s worth more than gold.” Before the Battle of the Blackwater, Bronn enlightened Tyrion:

      “Have you ever been in a city under siege? Maybe this part’s not in your books. See, it’s not the fighting that kills most people. It’s the starving. Food’s worth more than gold. Noble ladies sell their diamonds for a sack of potatoes. Things get bad enough, the poor sgtart eating each other. The thieves, they love a siege. Soon as the gates are sealed, they steal all the food. By the time it’s all over, they’re the richest men in town.
      *****

      In S7e1, Jaime emphasized the value of food – which makes Cersei’s decision to buy 20,000 Golden Company soldiers instead of importing food to feed the 1,000,000 people in KL and Lannister army soldiers extremely short-sighted:

      Jaime to Cersei (S7e1): “Winter is here. We can’t win a war if we can’t feed our men and our horses. The Tyrells have the grain, the Tyrells have the livestock.”

      If there’s any doubt that the onset of winter is already causing starvation and deaths, the Hound witnessed it first-hand in S7e1:

      (Beric to Sandor, at farmhouse of Rabbit Stew Sally and her father):

      “Girl died in her father’s arms. Both of them covered in blood and a knife at their feet. I’d say they were starving. And rather than letting his little girl suffer, he ended it for both of them.”

      The point is, Sansa is showing true leadership qualities; she’s not stealing food from anyone.

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    156. Inga,

      Since when is Dany making Jon king?

      He’s been relegated to Warden of the North. That’s how things stand and that’s what the Northerners will be reacting to.

      Plus, Jon is a Targaryen. If he and Dany married and shared the crown, then the Targaryens would rule the world, again; not The North.

      And Jon’s mission was far from a 100% success.

      He’s relinquished Northern independence, which is not what The North wanted nor was it what Jon proposed.

      And he and Dany succeeded in giving the Night King the means to invade the Seven Kingdoms, as part of a failed attempt to rally the hated Lannisters to their cause. That’s a massive own goal, no matter how you look at it.

      The Northerners have every reason to resent Jon and Dany right now. And if they turn up at Winterfell looking all cozy with one another, only to hear that The North is being set ablaze by the Night King and his dragon, and if Bran drops the bombshell that Jon’s been a Targaryen all along, then I don’t know how on earth the producers could justify glossing over all of this.

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    157. I fully agree the Northerners will be very cautious and mistrusting of Dany and they will also not be happy if Jon announces he has pledged the North’s allegiance to her, particularly as I believe this will happen before Bran/Sam tell Jon about his heritage.

      However it’s not correct to say Jon is Warden of the North, at this point he is still the King simply as Dany is not a Queen and I assume will never be one unless she marries Jon. My interpretation was that Dany would want Jon to give up his title and become Warden if she reaches out power but even that may change given the building love story.

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    158. hursta1,

      When has the North ever demonstrated any violent xenophobia? In case of the Wildlings, xenophobic comments came from the southerners, namely Lord Royce from Yohn Royce and Randyl Tarly. You can say that Smalljon Umber joined Ramsay Bolton, because Jon brought in the Wildlings, however, it’s obvious that the guy had some father issues first of all. As for Lord Glover, he simply needed an excuse not to answer the Stark call because he owed something to the Boltons. But all in all, there were at least three northern houses (including the Mormonts) who had no problems to stand side by side with the Wildlings against the Boltons, even though the Wildlings were pillaging the North for many centuries and up till the end of S4. And the Night’s Watch doesn’t count too. Jon was elected LC with one vote by Maester Aemon who passed away afterwards; he never had an absolute majority, etc. The coup was invitable one way or another and Jon’s decision to let in the Wildligs has allienated only a single person – Olly who had every reason to be against it. So, where is that infamous northern violent xenophobia? I see none.
      And as for the northern concerns about the Targaryans, in the beginning Dany indeed acted as expected: she wanted Jon to bend the knee and committ the norther army to her cause. And don’t let me start on he Hand Tyrion: he almost got Jon killed and, moreover, tried to talk Dany out of saving him simply because je was jelous. And that was a man who sort of believed in the WW threat! So, the northerners had every reason to be reserved about that snakepit, although now Jon is comming back victoriuos. Again, I don’t see any xenophobia in that.

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    159. Ten Bears,

      Thanks for finding & sharing the intriguing conversation Tyrion & Varys had. As usual, we seem to be on the same page. 🤖👩🏼‍🚀👩🏼‍🚀🤖 As satisfying as it was (for me) to watch, I can’t see why D&D chose to include that discussion unless it was telling us something we needed to pay attention to.

      Also, Dany’s sudden questioning of Varys’s loyalty on Dragonstone felt like an awkward insertion to me. What logic was Dany operating with there, to suddenly doubt the guy who’d brought her Tyrion (whom she trusts & relies on at that point), and who had been working for many years for a Targaryen restoration, who brokered the alliance with Dorne and Highgarden, and had been instrumental in defeating the Harpy in Meereen and holding the city for her while she was away? Again, to me this conversation felt like D&D cuing the audience, to pay attention because perhaps Varys will ultimately turn on Daenerys.

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    160. If you listen to what Varys says I can definitely see him switching allegiance behind Jon at some point. Jon is clearly a better ruler than Dany in the eyes of Varys.

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    161. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
      Jon Snowed,

      Well, if medieval rules apply, Dany’s marriage to Jon should lead to his coronation: that’s how things worked back then and primariliy because women could lead armies into battles. The ruels began to change olnly after kings stopped being actual battlefield commanders fighting on the front line along with other men. So, unless Dany is not planning to marry Jon – by why would she? – she should be planning to make him a king of the seven kingdoms, just like she made Hizdahr a king of Meereen (though it didn’t work out well). And Jon is a northerner – Targarian or not. He has been fighting for the North since his teens. Had he ordered his army to march on KL to help Dany, the northerners would have had a reason to complain, but not now, when he succeded in rallying Dany to defend the North.
      And the alliance with the Lannisters was never expected. Sure, losing a dragon for a faint possibility of gaining it was stupid, but, as I have already written, it wasn’t Jon’s idea, it wasn’t Dany’s idea – it was Tyrion’s. And now Tyrion will have to take a full responsibility for the consequences.
      As for the post-war order, sure, it’s hard to speculate, but at least the North should gain respect and influence and that capitalises into power. If Jon ends up as a king, he will remain invested in the northern matters and the notherners will probably be able to use that for their own benefit, etc. Anyway, their immediate concern is the NK and Jon has done everything possible to promote that.
      So, sorry for being repetitive, but I don’t see any LEGIT reason for discontent and it’s not how a human mind works. It would be super creepy to make the northerners whine about the arrival of a strong ally on the eve of the battle. And Northern independence has never been set up like a big issue: there was not a singe anti-Targ rebellion in three hundred years and the knee-benders Starks were perceived as a good rulers.

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    162. Gwidhiel:

      Also, Dany’s sudden questioning of Varys’s loyalty on Dragonstone felt like an awkward insertion to me. What logic was Dany operating with there, to suddenly doubt the guy who’d brought her Tyrion (whom she trusts & relies on at that point), and who had been working for many years for a Targaryen restoration, who brokered the alliance with Dorne and Highgarden, and had been instrumental in defeating the Harpy in Meereen and holding the city for her while she was away? Again, to me this conversation felt like D&D cuing the audience, to pay attention because perhaps Varys will ultimately turn on Daenerys.

      I’d say Dany has every reason to doubt Varys. The guy was behind the plan to sell her off to the Dothraki. He followed Robert’s instructions to send someone to assassinate her. He supported Viserys so surely he knew what kind of person he was as he claims to have little birds everywhere. He also must know how the Dothraki wage war, and didn’t seem to care about the people then. I’m sorry, but as Daenerys pointed out, Varys seems to be full of shit. She could have continued pressing him on those issues, but if anything she let him off the hook.

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    163. Jay Targ,

      Oh I agree with you about Daenerys having reason to question Varys’s loyalties, I’m simply pointing out that the timing of her expressing those doubts felt really off – why didn’t she have it out with him when he first arrived in Meereen? Or why not have that conversation with him before they set sail for Westeros (why bring a possible traitor along on your invasion)? I think that D&D postponed the “reckoning” conversation between Daenerys and Varys until it would be a very salient cue to the audience: Varys isn’t loyal to Dany herself and if she starts to show signs of poor judgement he may well abandon her cause. You were right to ask earlier, “So what? What does she lose if she loses Varys?” I 🤖suspect🤖 that we may find that out in Season 8.

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    164. Ten Bears:

      ~snip

      I go back to Varys’s conversation with Tyrion in S5e1 (excerpts below) about Varys’s original plan with Illyrio for a Targaryean Restoration and his current definition of the ideal monarch; and wonder how Varys and Tyrion will feel if they learn that Jon Snow is really Aegon Targaryean, i.e., has “the right family name”, is “gentler than Stannis”, and lacks Daeny’s “worst impulses”?

      Personally, I figure Jon is just the right person to check Daeny’s “worst impulses”, and help her see the big picture. He’s demonstrated that already. And he’s not caught up with titles, crowns, and knee-bending. It’d be great if the two of them work in unison, as equal partners. (Is that too progressive an idea for GoT?) Otherwise…might Varys or Tyrion – or both – reluctantly conclude that Jon Snow is the leader they should be supporting?

      ~ snip

      Varys: “No, you won’t. But you could help another climb those steps and take that seat. The Seven Kingdoms need someone stronger than Tommen, but gentler than Stannis. A monarch who can intimidate the high lords and inspire the people. A ruler loved by millions with a powerful army and the right family name.”

      I would still say that at the moment Daenerys is still a better fit for someone like Varys and Tyrion based on the profile he lays out. She still ticks every box, whereas Jon Snow seems to be lacking the powerful army and intimidation of the high lords (as he is currently portrayed on the show). Now of course all this can change, and I’m actually interested in seeing how Jon Snow handles Lord Royce and Lord Glover (as they seem to have a real lack of respect for him). He doesn’t have to kill them, but can he intimidate them so that they fall in line? It doesn’t seem like he can get them to love him, so perhaps instilling some sort of fear will work. Arya seemed to suggest this route, so I’m wondering if Jon would agree. Will the show address this, or will the Night King showing up just force them to fall in line without Jon doing anything?

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    165. Well… if the Northerners turn against Jon because he has Targaryen blood, that is prejudicial. They know Jon was raised by Ned Stark, was raised in the Stark way, and is a Northerner – he’s spent 95% of his life in the North, observing only Northern ideals and cultures. If they find out Rhaegar Targaryen is Jon’s blood father, they’ll also find out Lyanna Stark is his mother. However, Jon didn’t know either of his parents – he only knew Ned Stark as his parent and has no idea he is a legitimate Targaryen heir. Condemning Jon for this paternity would not be, in my mind, a legitimate reason for resenting him. Jon is not at all culturally Targaryen, has no idea of his Targaryen paternity, and was not raised as a Targaryen heir by Rheagar Targaryen. He was 100% raised in the Stark and Northern way of his mother’s family and by Ned Stark.

      I have no idea how the Northerners are going to react to everything. Jon’s first and foremost goal has been (by far) to fight to make sure there is a North at all and the survival of humanity. I’ll refrain from commenting on the wight expedition and whose fault that was because that is not what I wish to argue in this post. However, judging somebody based on the actions of their father or blood relatives (as they had done with Daenerys in Season 7 as an argument for Jon not to go south to get the resources they need to fight this threat) is certainly prejudicial. Now, for the Northern lords to be cautious of her because she is a stranger to them is fair – because they don’t know her.

      I agree with comments saying if the Northern lords begin arguing about politics/Northern independence when there is a zombie hoard right on their doorstep, that would suck because there won’t be a North at all if they’re all ice zombies. The Long Night was always inevitable – the Northern lords are free to be as angry as they like with Jon’s decisions and bicker as much as they like over the politics. Fine. But they should probably save that for after the zombie apocalypse if they want their best chance at survival.

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    166. Inga,

      Sorry, but your logic is all over the place and that’s why we seem to be going in circles. You don’t seem to be taking on board anything that I’ve said in our previous exchanges.

      For example, I already explained earlier that the Northerners have no reason to blame Tyrion for the plan to meet with the Lannisters. He is not their King. He is not responsible for Jon’s decisions. They don’t even know that it was his plan. You cannot dismiss Northern discontent with Jon’s decisions on that basis.

      And regardless of whose plan it was, it resulted in the Night King getting his hands on one of Daenerys’ dragons, which now threatens The North’s entire existence. That’s not something that can logically just be glossed over.

      And half of your argument is predicated on the assumption that Jon and Dany will marry, which is far from certain.

      And, for some reason, you’re choosing to minimise the fact that Jon is a true born Targaryen, whether he likes it or not. If Jon marries Daenerys to seal their alliance then the Starks don’t rule The North; the Targaryens do. And if the Northerners learn of his true heritage then they are unlikely to accept such an arrangement.

      And if they don’t know that he’s a Targaryen and he marries Daenerys, he has already relinquished the Northern crown and bent the knee to Daenerys, so he would be little more than consort to her, like Hizdahr, who was not king. At least, not on the show. Do kings usually get mocked and threatened by their queen’s lover?

      And of course Northern independence is a big thing. “We know no king but the King in the North, whose name is Stark”. The North declaring independence from the Crown was a massive thing and was subject of two of the most triumphant scenes in the entire show. In the Season 6 finale, when all the Lords were chanting “The King in the North” were you thinking to yourself ‘pffft, this is no big deal’? Self-determination is a major theme on the show.

      As for arguing on the eve of war, that’s exactly how the human mind works. Ultimately they will unite to fight when the threat materialises, but in the meantime they will bicker, apportion blame, contest decisions, fight for their own interests, and so on.

      Remember Jon and Sansa arguing on the eve of war? Remember Jon and Ser Alliser arguing about sealing the tunnel at Castle Black? Remember Greatjon Umber arguing about who would lead the vanguard? Remember the Karstarks and Boltons arguing about Robb’s decision-making? Remember Tywin arguing with his generals over how they were losing the war?

      Plus, if the Northerners/Vale don’t raise any complaints about Jon and Daenerys and their decisions then where’s the drama and tension and personal conflict supposed to come from? It won’t all be about the military conflict with the Army of the Dead.

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    167. Adrianacandle:
      Well… if the Northerners turn against Jon because he has Targaryen blood, that is prejudicial. They know Jon was raised by Ned Stark, was raised in the Stark way, and is a Northerner – he’s spent 95% of his life in the North, observing only Northern ideals and cultures. If they find out Rhaegar Targaryen is Jon’s blood father, they’ll also find out Lyanna Stark is his mother. However, Jon didn’t know either of his parents – he only knew Ned Stark as his parent and has no idea he is a legitimate Targaryen heir. Condemning Jon for this paternity would not be, in my mind, a legitimate reason for resenting him. Jon is not at all culturally Targaryen, has no idea of his Targaryen paternity, and was not raised as a Targaryen heir by Rheagar Targaryen. He was 100% raised in the Stark and Northern way of his mother’s family and by Ned Stark.

      I think I agree with you on the abstract point of Jon’s parentage and whether or not he’d likely still be considered a Stark by the North, especially given (as you’ve said) how very Northern and Stark-like he is. The problem that I foresee is when it’s revealed that Jon has abandoned the kingship that the Northern lords bestowed upon him in favor of his Targaryen aunt. Let’s assume that their hook-up isn’t made public (because I think that would just make things even worse in the eyes of the North) – it’s not going to look good when it’s revealed that Jon gave up northern independence to satisfy his foreign relative who has an unsavory reputation.

      I do agree with you and others who point out that they won’t have much time for squabbling, and that Dany’s dragons will be vital in defending the lives of everyone in the North against the army of the dead. Way back at the beginning of the thread we were discussing what use there would be for Sansa’s political skills in Season 8: I think she could be instrumental in getting everyone to focus on the bigger issue at hand and work together, even if it means making some compromises.

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    168. My best guess is that Sansa (and Bran) will not tell the Northern lords about Jon bending the knee to Daenerys. Given how fractious they were in Season 7 after Jon left Winterfell, I don’t think Sansa would want to add any fuel to the fire of their discontent. Better for them to hear it from Jon himself, perhaps with the hope that they’ll have by then seen/met Daenerys for themselves and been awed by her dragons, so that they won’t be so upset at losing their independence to her.

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    169. Sort of off-topic, but not really because the article discusses Sophie Turner’s interview in which she talks about her role in “X-Men: Dark Phoenix”:

      I just received the Dec. 15/22, 2017 issue of Entertainment Weekly (“The First Look Issue”), and its cover has an absolutely gorgeous picture of Sophie Turner as Jean Grey/Phoenix in Dark Phoenix, with the side caption: “Outer Space & Inner Demons! Sophie Turner Reignites the Hottest Superhero Story of All Time.”

      She looks beautiful, with flaming red hair, i.e., real flames.

      I was never a fan of Sansa/Sophie in Seasons 1 – 6 – in retrospect I realized the showrunners had her character make inexplicable decisions and left Sophie twisting in the wind trying to explain them – but ever since S7e7 I’ve been solidly on board with her portrayal of Sansa. (And by the way, I thought her performance was the best thing about the last X-Men movie…including a flawless American accent.)

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    170. Ten Bears,

      I saw that cover – Sophie Turner does look amazing!

      I shared your dislike of Sansa in the early seasons of the show, in which she came off as whiny, entitled, and pretty dumb. I wasn’t a big fan of her in the early books, either, but because she was a POV character readers were given insight into what she was thinking, and while she was definitely naive and sheltered, she was also innately kind, so I had some sympathy for her. I grew to like her much more in A Feast For Crows, as she shed her childishness and became a much sharper observer of what was going on around her.

      I agree with you that Sophie Turner was often left to explain some rather inexplicable things, particularly in seasons 5 & 6. It might be that scenes that got cut in editing might have made some of Sansa’s behaviors more understandable, so that what seemed pretty coherent to Sophie as she was performing came across as weird to the audience.

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    171. Jay Targ,

      Yeah, I know Jon is too much of a sweetie pie to check all the boxes (eg intimidating lords, “large” army), which is why I felt the two of them together – Daenerys & Jon as co-equals – would make the perfect monarchy.

      Besides, even if Jon’s got the Targaryen name, he’s still got the Northern upbringing and Stark blood via Ned’s beloved sister Lyanna. Ned had a tortured relationship with the truth, but he was not lying when he told Jon: “You may not have my name, but you have my blood.”

      I wonder how that works? When the Northerners made him king they didn’t care that he was a bastard son of Ned Stark. How will that change if they learn he’s the trueborn son of Lyanna Stark?

      Perhaps more important, how will the Northerners react if Bran & Sam reveal that “Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie”, and that Rhaegar never kidnapped or raped Lyanna? Instead, they loved each other, they were married, and Jon was the product of that union. Will that erase some of the anti-Targ prejudice among the Northerners?

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    172. Ten Bears:
      Perhaps more important, how will the Northerners react if Bran & Sam reveal that “Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie”, and that Rhaegar never kidnapped or raped Lyanna? Instead, they loved each other, they were married, and Jon was the product of that union.Will that erase some of the anti-Targ prejudice among the Northerners?

      The Mad King still burned Lord Stark alive, killed his eldest son and heir, and demanded that Jon Arryn hand over young Ned Stark. So … no?

      FWIW my read of the northern wish for independence is not just anti-Targaryen (or anti-Lannister), but anti-southern overall. Not because of xenophobia, but because historically the South hasn’t understood the North, dismissing it as drab and dull and not worth much, not caring at all about the Wall, and making jokes about “Winter is Coming.”

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    173. Gwidhiel,

      Yeah. I think Sansa will be helpful in getting the Northern lords to focus on the bigger picture. I think it makes the most narrative sense for her to aid Jon and Daenerys in their fight against the Night King by helping to persuade the Northern lords to quit scabbling until the war is over. I have to agree with Sansa’s assessment of most of the Northern lords (bar a few, like the Mormonts) being a bunch of flip-flopping “bloody wind vanes” in the show 🙂 I definitely love the show but not so much this aspect of the Northern lords. I think Alt Shift X made a similar comment about the flip-flopping tendencies of the Northern lords so – like Sansa – I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them. However, saying that, I know that in the books, they certainly have a much stronger loyalty to the Stark family to the extent where the theory of the Northern Conspiracy seems pretty plausible.

      I definitely agree with you that it would be very plausible (almost guaranteed) for these Northern lords to not look favourably on Jon’s Targaryen heritage in light of him pledging allegiance to his Targaryen aunt. They already dislike Dany on the basis of her being a Targaryen (“A Targaryen cannot be trusted”). My main reason for bringing it up in my first post was say that it would be prejudicial of the Northern lords to hold Jon’s Targaryen blood against him – as it would be for anybody to hold their bloodline against them, such as in Daenerys’s case (for being a Targaryen), or Sansa’s case (for being a “traitor”‘s daughter and Robb’s sister while she was in King’s Landing), or the whole general bastardy stigma. Such prejudice definitely exists in the world of Game of Thrones, A Song of Ice and Fire, and in the real world, but I think it can be fairly agreed on that this is not a legitimate thing to hold against someone. Plausible for the Northern lords, but not a legitimate reason.

      Yes, I think that while Jon may be half Targaryen by blood, he is culturally Stark and Northern and I really hope the Northern lords remember that but god only knows with them. I think it makes the most narrative sense for Sansa at this point to play the role of diplomat with the Northern lords and help out Jon and Daenerys in unifying Westeros for this war. I think her character is headed in this direction based on Season 7 – and also because I don’t think it’ll much matter to her (other than the initial shock) who Jon’s parents are because she and Jon already know and love each other as family. I think ultimately, she and Jon want the same things – everyone to be safe, for their family to be reunited, and their home.

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    174. hursta1:
      Grail King,

      She did not say extra.I have the episode up right now.She says if they dont use it they will give it back but nothing about only shipping the extra grain.Sansa has already taken ALL the food in the north.Do you think the northerners are mad at her?The only people that believe that the north and team Dany are going to be enemies are those people that already dislike Daenerys.Its wishful thinking (kinda messed up that people want the north to demonstrate more of that violent xenophobia they are famous for) and only makes sense in that context.Otherwise it makes the northerners look like the fools that they are that care more about where someone is from than the survival of their line.Maybe they were meant to be portrayed that way but to me the north of Westeros is basically the deep south of the US.It sucks for all involved that the NK couldnt invade somewhere else where people are interested in actually surviving.Just so you guys know if it goes down the way you want it too it wont be a good look for the northerners. I actually hope the vale or the Umbers abandon the cause over some stupid made up reason like Dany is a foreigner and we are super xenophobic up here, and are later executed as traitors after the war is won.See thats the thing people will remember who fought and who ran.

      She said: Have houses send regular shipments of grain ( NOT ALL ) as they will not have time to bring grain with them if they have to leave. Sansa even asked Wolcum to check for the worst winter in 100 years.
      Why would I think the North is mad at her?

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    175. Gwidhiel,

      About Sansa/Sophie: While I have not read the books yet, it’s my understanding that merging Sansa into the Jeyne Poole-Bolton story line “forced” her character to:

      • agree to LF’s ridiculous plan to marry into the family that butchered her mother, brother, sister in law, unborn nephew, and countless Stark bannermen;
      • conceal the Knights of the Vale from Jon before BoB.

      Both “decisions” made her character appear stupid and selfish; lots of fan speculation but no logical excuse was ever offered to justify her actions. As I understand it, in the books she’s still in the Vale. Tweaking the timeline of events and characters’ geographical location might’ve seemed like a good idea on paper, and worked pretty well in other instances, but this time it created a great deal of confusion.

      Gee, I didn’t mean to dredge up past critiques. I’m just trying to convey that some of the adaptation decisions didn’t do this young actress any favors.

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    176. Ten Bears:
      hursta1,

      “Sansa has already taken ALL the food in the north. Do you think the northerners are mad at her?”
      ————

      Wait, what???Sansa didn’t “take” anyone’s food. She’s been trying to get the Northern houses to contribute to WF’s grain storage facilities so they will have food for the long winter/war to come.

      I just don’t see how Sansa can be vilified in this regard. Training to fight and making dragonglass weapons is wonderful, but a real forward-thinking leader makes sure the soldiers – and civilians – have sustenance.

      Food shortages aren’t as sexy as fire-breathing dragons, swordfighters, and ice zombies, but they’re real world problems that the show has been forecasting over and over again since S1, even if in the background in some scenes. (The conclusion of my favorite scene in S4e1 “Two Swords”, shows Arya with Needle and Sandor munching a drumstick, riding off, but in the background the Riverlands are scorched and smoking.) Throughout all seven seasons, there have been constant references to famine.

      As Bronn once explained in S2e8, during wartime, eg a siege, “food’s worth more than gold.” Before the Battle of the Blackwater, Bronn enlightened Tyrion:

      “Have you ever been in a city under siege? Maybe this part’s not in your books. See, it’s not the fighting that kills most people. It’s the starving. Food’s worth more than gold. Noble ladies sell their diamonds for a sack of potatoes. Things get bad enough, the poor sgtart eating each other. The thieves, they love a siege. Soon as the gates are sealed, they steal all the food. By the time it’s all over, they’re the richest men in town.
      *****

      In S7e1, Jaime emphasized the value of food – which makes Cersei’s decision to buy 20,000 Golden Company soldiers instead of importing food to feed the 1,000,000 people in KL and Lannister army soldiers extremely short-sighted:

      Jaime to Cersei (S7e1): “Winter is here. We can’t win a war if we can’t feed our men and our horses. The Tyrells have the grain, the Tyrells have the livestock.”

      If there’s any doubt that the onset of winter is already causing starvation and deaths, the Hound witnessed it first-hand in S7e1:

      (Beric to Sandor, at farmhouse of Rabbit Stew Sally and her father):

      “Girl died in her father’s arms. Both of them covered in blood and a knife at their feet. I’d say they were starving. And rather than letting his little girl suffer, he ended it for both of them.”

      The point is, Sansa is showing true leadership qualities; she’s not stealing food from anyone.

      + 1,000,000

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    177. Jay Targ: I would still say that at the moment Daenerys is still a better fit for someone like Varys and Tyrion based on the profile he lays out.She still ticks every box, whereas Jon Snow seems to be lacking the powerful army and intimidation of the high lords (as he is currently portrayed on the show).Now of course all this can change, and I’m actually interested in seeing how Jon Snow handles Lord Royce and Lord Glover (as they seem to have a real lack of respect for him).He doesn’t have to kill them, but can he intimidate them so that they fall in line?It doesn’t seem like he can get them to love him, so perhaps instilling some sort of fear will work. Arya seemed to suggest this route, so I’m wondering if Jon would agree. Will the show address this, or will the Night King showing up just force them to fall in line without Jon doing anything?

      I don’t think Royce is a problem, Glover on the other hand….ehhh head may be rolling.
      Sansa, Jon and Arya may give him 1 pass; but 2??

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    178. Gwidhiel,

      You’re probably right. “The North remembers” what that firebug Mad King Aerys did, and won’t soon forget.

      It’d be like Jon strolling back into town and saying “Hi! My name’s Jon Hitler.”

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    179. Gwidhiel:
      My best guess is that Sansa (and Bran) will not tell the Northern lords about Jon bending the knee to Daenerys. Given how fractious they were in Season 7 after Jon left Winterfell, I don’t think Sansa would want to add any fuel to the fire of their discontent. Better for them to hear it from Jon himself, perhaps with the hope that they’ll have by then seen/met Daenerys for themselves and been awed by her dragons, so that they won’t be so upset at losing their independence to her.

      Depending how it shakes out, not only will Sansa and Bran keep mum, Jon may decide to keep it to himself. Jon doesn’t want or like to rule, he may be quite happy knowing he’s not a bastard, and perhaps Sansa or Bran makes him a Stark in front of the Northern Lords since he is one by birth just on the mother’s line.

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    180. Ten Bears:

      Yeah, I know Jon is too much of a sweetie pie to check all the boxes (eg intimidating lords, “large” army), which is why I felt the two of them together – Daenerys & Jon as co-equals – would make the perfect monarchy.

      Well we agree on this.

      Ten Bears:

      Besides, even if Jon’s got the Targaryen name, he’s still got the Northern upbringing and Stark blood via Ned’s beloved sister Lyanna. Ned had a tortured relationship with the truth, but he was not lying when he told Jon: “You may not have my name, but you have my blood.”

      I wonder how that works? When the Northerners made him king they didn’t care that he was a bastard son of Ned Stark. How will that change if they learn he’s the trueborn son of Lyanna Stark?

      Yeah, that’s certainly interesting. Will they still resent Lyanna for running off with Rhaegar and not letting anyone know? Which in turn caused Brandon and Rickard to go down to King’s Landing challenging Aerys and demanding to know R+L’s whereabouts. It’ll be interesting to see how it will play out.

      I’m also interested in Bran’s whole “He needs to know. We need to tell him.” statement. Even if we were to ignore Jon and Dany’s relationship, it’s difficult for me to understand why exactly Jon needs to know. Especially at this moment. He’s likely to suffer a major identity crisis. The only way it makes sense to me is if somehow, having knowledge of his parentage allows him to defeat the NK. Other than that, having this knowledge doesn’t seem like it’s going to do him many favors.

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    181. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      About Sansa/Sophie: While I have not read the books yet, it’s my understanding that merging Sansa into the Jeyne Poole-Bolton story line “forced” her character to:

      • agree to LF’s ridiculous plan to marry into the family that butchered her mother, brother, sister in law, unborn nephew, and countless Stark bannermen;• conceal the Knights of the Vale from Jon before BoB.

      Both “decisions” made her character appear stupid and selfish; lots of fan speculation but no logical excuse was ever offered to justify her actions. As I understand it, in the books she’s still in the Vale. Tweaking the timeline of events and characters’ geographical location might’ve seemed like a good idea on paper, and worked pretty well in other instances, but this time it created a great deal of confusion.

      Gee, I didn’t mean to dredge up past critiques. I’m just trying to convey that some of the adaptation decisions didn’t do this young actress any favors.

      GRRM himself, said it will cause massive butterfly effects and it did.

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    182. Jay Targ:
      I’m also interested in Bran’s whole “He needs to know. We need to tell him.” statement.Even if we were to ignore Jon and Dany’s relationship, it’s difficult for me to understand why exactly Jon needs to know.Especially at this moment.He’s likely to suffer a major identity crisis.The only way it makes sense to me is if somehow, having knowledge of his parentage allows him to defeat the NK.Other than that, having this knowledge doesn’t seem like it’s going to do him many favors.

      Well I imagine that Jon would appreciate knowing about his familial relationship with his new girlfriend, so that he can make an informed choice about whether or not he wants to carry on an incestuous relationship with his aunt.

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    183. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I guess that most of our disagreements stem from the fact that we have different course of events in our heads. If I get it right, you think that the squabbles will fill like the first two episodes and the NK will arrive. That may be the case, but there is another option: the NK may show up at Winterfell already by the end of the Ep1, and in such case things will have to play differently. Ep1 should be waiting for Jona & Dany as potential saviors; Ep2 will prove that Dany can’t do much: the straightforward attack should be repelled, but I expect the NK to lay a siege. And then there will be time for squabbles, because Winterfell will start running out of food and Dany’s men and dragons will be the main eaters. So, before the siege is lifted by the arrival of some unexpected reinforcement (I know it’s repetitive but hardly D&D will come up with a different scenario), Winterfell will be turned into a snakepit and some of the squabbles may go into later episodes, though most of them should be glossed over by the euphoria of the first victory in the war for dawn. That’s my vision.
      And moreover, I don’t think that the drama will be focused on tertiary characters and extras like the northern lords or the knight of the Vale. It shoud focus on the main characters, primarily on Jon and Dany. And Dany is a major source of a human-heart conflict: she will have to acknowledge that she wasn’t born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, she will have to choose between the only thing which kept her standing and her love to Jon, she will have to deal with his suspicious sisters (cousins), his best friend whose brother and father she burned, his subjects, etc. And all of that creates plenty of conflict for six episodes. Other squabbles should only serve as additions enhancing Dany’s drama and in this context even the Norther independence may become an issue, but more to her than to the Norther lords, because Dany should complete her character development from a good slave master to a liberator who gives her people a real freedom of choice even when it goes against her interests. Jon has to complete his character development and so does Tyrion, because soon he will lear that he is not as wise as he though. In short, there are three major dramas of the three primary protagonists and a bunch of secondary characters which have to sort out their personal matters too, therefore, Lord Glover or Lord Royce can act only as catalysts for those dramas. But we can agree to disagree.

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    184. Gwidhiel,

      Yes I imagine you’re correct. But lets say that Jon and Dany never entered a romantic relationship; would it still be important for Bran to tell Jon this information (at this moment in time)? Does knowing R+L=J aid Jon in defeating the Night King and ending the Long Night? Or would Jon be better served in finding out post-war (to avoid any potential identity crisis)?

      On a sidenote, I wonder if Bran was aware of Jon and Dany’s romantic relationship at the time he was talking with Sam.

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    185. Jay Targ,

      “I’m also interested in Bran’s whole “He needs to know. We need to tell him.” statement. Even if we were to ignore Jon and Dany’s relationship, it’s difficult for me to understand why exactly Jon needs to know.”
      ——————————-

      Yes! That’s been bothering me too! Why is it so urgent? And that urgency was there in Bran’s mind even before the legitimacy/Lyanna-Rhaegar marriage discovery. I think in S7e4 he told Sansa. outside at the heart tree, that he needed to talk to Jon.

      (I kind of wondered why Bran didn’t include a “P.S.” in his ravengram to Jon c/o Dragonstone, e.g., “By the way, I may have discovered who your mom was. We’ll talk when you get back.”)

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    186. Jay Targ:
      Gwidhiel,

      Yes I imagine you’re correct.But lets say that Jon and Dany never entered a romantic relationship; would it still be important for Bran to tell Jon this information (at this moment in time)?Does knowing R+L=J aid Jon in defeating the Night King and ending the Long Night?Or would Jon be better served in finding out post-war (to avoid any potential identity crisis)?

      Oh this is a very good question. I agree that it seems like there must be some significance to Bran’s determination that Jon know the truth of his parentage, although I think we must consider the possibility that the urgency exists merely in the showrunners’ need for drama (remember the Winterfell Season 7 subplot). Bran hasn’t felt compelled to volunteer info about much of anything, even if it’s immediately important and relevant to what’s going on, he apparently only answers questions that others ask (remember the Winterfell Season 7 subplot). So what’s his compelling reason to tell Jon about his parents?

      One possibility could be that he knows that Jon needs to become Rhaegal’s dragonrider, and that it might never occur to Jon or Dany that’s even possible unless they know that Jon is a Targaryen?

      Jay Targ: On a sidenote, I wonder if Bran was aware of Jon and Dany’s romantic relationship at the time he was talking with Sam.

      Oh … yuck. Poor Bran, forced into voyeurism.

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    187. Gwidhiel,

      “Bran hasn’t felt compelled to volunteer info about much of anything, even if it’s immediately important and relevant to what’s going on, he apparently only answers questions that others ask (remember the Winterfell Season 7 subplot). ”
      _________________

      That was starting to irk me. Like in the S7e4 Sansa-Arya-Bran scene outdoors when Arya reunites with Bran, and he says…

      Bran: “You came home. I saw you at the crossroads.”
      Arya: “You saw me?”
      Bran: “I see quite a lot now.”
      Sansa: “Bran has visions.”

      My first thought was…your little sister has been MIA for over two years, some people (eg doofus guards) insist “Arya Stark’s dead”, yet you saw her alive and well…and didn’t tell anyone?

      At their reunion scene, I’m surprised Voyeur Bran didn’t volunteer: “I saw Hot Pie tell you you’re pretty.”

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    188. Ten Bears:

      That was starting to irk me. Like in the S7e4 Sansa-Arya-Bran scene outdoors when Arya reunites with Bran, and he says…

      Bran: “You came home. I saw you at the crossroads.”
      Arya: “You saw me?”
      Bran: “I see quite a lot now.”
      Sansa: “Bran has visions.”

      My first thought was…your little sister has been MIA for over two years, some people (eg doofus guards) insist “Arya Stark’s dead”, yet you saw her alive and well…and didn’t tell anyone?

      At their reunion scene,I’m surprised Voyeur Bran didn’t volunteer: “I saw Hot Pie tell you you’re pretty.”

      So I might be wrong about this, but my interpretation was that Bran was expressing mild surprise to Arya that she’d returned home, because when he’d “looked in” on her earlier, when she was at the crossroads, she’d had every intention of going to Kings Landing to take down Cersei, Gregor Clegane, etc. I thought he’d checked in with her before her conversation with Hot Pie, and hadn’t checked in since.

      I took it as a rather muddled way of conveying to the audience that Bran isn’t omniscient, and he doesn’t know the future – or isn’t sure about what he sees vis a vis the future?

      And I could see him keeping that info to himself, because if Arya had gone to Kings Landing she might not have ever made it back to Winterfell. And/or that because Sansa might have sent a raven to John on Dragonstone, who would have almost certainly gone to KL himself to intercept Arya.

      You can appreciate Bran’s need to be careful about the information that he shares.

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    189. Wolfish:

      I find it fascinating that so many people believe Jon will suffer some sort of massive identity crisis when he’s informed he’s not Ned’s son, or that Arya will face a similar interior conflict upon discovering he’s actually her cousin. Yes, it’s going to come as a shock. But political implications aside, I would think that on a personal, familial level it will also be profoundly satisfying, albeit bittersweet: Lyanna, Ned’s beloved sister, lives through her son, and their father didn’t, in actuality, dishonor their mother. In a world where women are valued chiefly for their ability to bear children, a young woman’s death is considered particularly tragic if she has not fulfilled that role. But Lyanna did, and I think that realizing that–that when they look upon Jon’s face they see her flesh and blood, not Ned’s–the Starks will finally be able to put the ghosts and the discord of the past to bed.

      I don’t know that identity crisis is the phrase I would use to describe my perception of what will happen, but I do think that discovering the truth about his parentage will affect Jon. I don’t see how it couldn’t mess with someone’s mind to discover that their father is actually their uncle, their aunt is actually their mother and one of their grandfathers burned the other one alive. And Jon, who prizes honesty so highly (several references were made to the need for it in The Dragon and the Wolf) will find it hard to deal with being lied to for his entire life.

      And that’s before he gets to the realization that his new girlfriend is actually his aunt.

      That said, I do agree that knowing the truth of what happened to Lyanna will help on a familial level when it comes to processing the last months/year of her life. She is no longer a victim of kidnap and rape, but a young woman who took a decision and died as many others before and since, in childbirth.

      As for Arya, having been so close to Jon, I do think it will have an impact on her.

      Jay Targ:

      I’m also interested in Bran’s whole “He needs to know. We need to tell him.” statement.Even if we were to ignore Jon and Dany’s relationship, it’s difficult for me to understand why exactly Jon needs to know.

      My guess is that Bran feels the information has some sort of importance – an importance he has yet to discover. The Three-Eyed Raven took him to the Tower of Joy for a reason, and promised to return with him at a later date. If we look at the other visions they shared, they were all crucial.

      The Winterfell courtyard vision in Home marked Bran finally seeing something he considered to be of interest to him – this scene proved crucial in The Door because Bran then knew that Hodor had once been Wylis. He then understands the need to warg Wylis to create Hodor.

      We also see the Three-Eyed Raven take Bran to the creation of the Night King. Again, this is crucial information.

      For some reason, the Three-Eyed Raven saw the events which took place at the Tower of Joy as being important enough to go back in time and show Bran. That is why, I think, Bran seems so keen to tell Jon. He expresses a desire to speak to Jon about something as early as The Queen’s Justice in the scene with Sansa in the Winterfell Godswood.

      I think Bran takes the first visit to the Tower of Joy as evidence that Jon’s parentage is important information. He just doesn’t understand why (likely because he is still learning how to use his powers).

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    190. Wolfish,

      Yes! And on a personal level, if I were Jon:

      • It would be nice to know I wasn’t a bastard born to some nameless tavern wench (which Stannis remarked wasn’t Ned Stark’s way); and

      • It’d salve the lifelong bitterness I’d felt to learn I never was a bastard at all; and

      • Even without the info-dump that Lyanna was married, the revelation that the stories about Rhaegar kidnapping and raping her were fake news would make him realize he was the product of love, not violence.

      • After Jon digests the news, he’ll (presumably) appreciate the monumental burdens Ned assumed to keep his promise to his mom and protect him.

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    191. Alba Stark,

      “My guess is that Bran feels the information has some sort of importance – an importance he has yet to discover. The Three-Eyed Raven took him to the Tower of Joy for a reason, and promised to return with him at a later date. If we look at the other visions they shared, they were all crucial…..”

      ———————
      (*Dons tinfoil hazmat suit 👨‍🚀*)

      Might Sam have read something in the Citadel library that pointed to Jon’s indispensability?

      I found his words to Bran a bit curious:

      From S7e7:

      Bran: “Why did you come to Winterfell?

      Sam: ”Jon’s the one to lead the fight against the dead. I know he is. But he can’t do it alone, so I’ve come here to help him.”

      I wonder if Sam will punch time + place coordinates into the DeLoreanBran Time Machine to confirm or clarify some vague information Sam read in an ancient book.

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    192. Gwidhiel,

      I guess I’m projecting: If my little sister had been missing for two years, I’d be pissed if my brother found out she was okay – and where she was – and didn’t tell me.

      Here, if Bran didn’t say anything because he didn’t want anyone to interfere with Arya’s plan to go to KL to carry out an undercover assassination of Cersei, if I were Sansa or Jon I’d smack him over the head.

      PS I am still perplexed why Jon said he “thought Arya was dead” when he received Bran’s ravengram c/o Dragonstone, but that’s another long, convoluted story. (I went back over all references to Arya since S4, and Jon’s statement makes zero sense – unless we make believe that the show-only Sansa/Bolton storyline and Brienne’s encounter with Arya & the Hound never happened.)

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    193. Ten Bears:

      Might Sam have read something in the Citadel library that pointed to Jon’s indispensability?

      I found his words to Bran a bit curious:

      From S7e7:

      Bran: “Why did you come to Winterfell?

      Sam:”Jon’s the one to lead the fight against the dead. I know he is. But he can’t do it alone, so I’ve come here to help him.”

      I wonder if Sam will punch time + place coordinates into the DeLoreanBran Time Machine to confirm or clarify some vague information Sam read in an ancient book.

      I do think it is possible this is the way things may operate with the two of them – Sam does research and Bran essentially verifies it, maybe? They could get a lot of good work done. I essentially think Bran has all the knowledge of the internet, but you still need to perform a google search to get the info.

      As for Sam’s assertion about Jon leading the fight against the dead, I think that is based more on his friendship with Jon and Jon’s past actions than anything else. I think Sam recognizes that Jon is the one leader in Westeros actively working to defeat the dead. Perhaps he even sees Jon’s kingship as an extension of his role as Lord Commander? In terms of defending the realms of men, I mean. And Jon is the only living person with experience of leading soldiers into battle against the Night King. I think he’s talking about Jon being the right man to be Commander in Chief of the Army of the Living.

      Sidebar: thinking on it, Lord Protector of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm are titles often used by the person sitting on the Iron Throne, the person supposed to lead Westeros.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Alba Stark,

      “I essentially think Bran has all the knowledge of the internet, but you still need to perform a google search to get the info.”
      …………………….

      Exactly! Unless it’s some awkward personal information that he blurts out, Bran doesn’t seem to volunteer things – even vital information – unless he’s asked or prompted somehow.

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    195. Alba Stark,

      Well, the Citadel maesters blew off Sam when he implored them to have everyone research their old books for any info about the Long Night; and Sam stole a satchel full of books on his way out, so I figure he and/or Gilly are going to find some valuable clues in the stolen books. Then, they can use Bran to fact check (because he’s too stoned to focus on his own).

      Also…last season, one of the books they were looking at had an image of Arya’s VS dagger. That couldn’t have been coincidence. I wonder what the dagger’s significance was/is? Plus, the way Bran gave Arya the dagger was kind of strange; maybe it was the camera angle or close-up on Bran’s hand as he parted with it. I have no idea…

        Quote  Reply

    196. Ten Bears:
      Gwidhiel,

      I guess I’m projecting: If my little sister had been missing for two years, I’d be pissed if my brother found out she was okay – and where she was – and didn’t tell me.

      Here, if Bran didn’t say anything because he didn’t want anyone to interfere with Arya’s plan to go to KL to carry out an undercover assassination of Cersei, if I were Sansa or Jon I’d smack him over the head.

      PS I am still perplexed why Jon said he “thought Arya was dead” when he received Bran’s ravengram c/o Dragonstone, but that’s another long, convoluted story. (I went back over all references to Arya since S4, and Jon’s statement makes zero sense – unless we make believe that the show-only Sansa/Bolton storyline and Brienne’s encounter with Arya & the Hound never happened.)

      I do see what you mean about how annoyed Sansa might have been if she’d known Bran had withheld knowledge of Arya’s whereabouts (and the fact that she’s alive) – I also have a little sister, and I’d also want to know! – but I do think that Bran isn’t wrong for being cautious about volunteering information.

      As for why Jon thought Arya was dead – I figure that he’d just assumed that Arya was dead, given that she was last seen (by Brienne) in a very lawless part of the country, and just disappeared. No word of her for a couple of years after that. Given that Jon was Arya’s favorite sibling and yet she didn’t come to find him at Castle Black (unlike Sansa) … I can see why Jon figured she was most likely dead.

        Quote  Reply

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