The cast of Game of Thrones has plenty to discuss with the epic sixth season coming to a close Sunday night. Expressing their excitement for the growth of the series, Sophie Turner relishes in Sansa’s victory at The Hollywood Reporter. With Vulture, Aidan Gillen (Littlefinger) discusses his character’s influence and the slick conniver’s motives.
Episode 9 of the newest season featured a key moment for Sansa. After finally getting revenge on Ramsay Bolton, Turner says:
There’s a feeling of rooting for her. This is something everyone wanted out of Sansa. She had certainly been building up to this over the past five seasons, her first kill. But I think what people should be maybe a bit wary of is how much she seemed to enjoy it. I have to give a lot of credit to Miguel [Sapochnik], the director of the episode. That was kind of his idea, the look back in, where it lasts a little bit too long. I think Sansa could maybe develop a taste for killing. Who knows. It could be a little worrying, for sure.
She also reflects on her complicated relationship with her half-brother cousin Jon Snow:
I think Sansa trusts Jon to make morally right decisions, but I’m not sure if she trusts him with the kind of political things. I don’t know if she trusts Davos completely, and he’s kind of his advisor. I think it’s more about being open with each other, like with Sansa writing to Littlefinger for the Knights of the Vale. I think Jon means they need to be more open with each other and tell each other what’s going on — and it’s very frustrating for Sansa to hear him say that. She knows he means it more about her than it is him talking about himself. And he really needs to trust her.
Allies Littlefinger and Sansa also shared a look during the White Wolf’s coronation. Turner offers her insight:
As you say, she rejects him in the beginning, but there’s definitely something in her that’s… it’s kind of a jealousy toward Jon. He’s getting all of the credit for basically Sansa saving his ass. Obviously he played a huge part in the Battle of the Bastards, but Sansa really saved him. There’s a bit of jealousy there. She looks at Littlefinger knowing that he would have put her as Queen in the North, and given her the credit she deserves. I don’t think she’s gunning for the Iron Throne anytime soon, but she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.
For more, including how she thinks Sansa will react to the revelation of Jon’s mother, head on over to The Hollywood Reporter!
After hearing Turner’s take on the subtle glance between Sansa and Littlefinger, Aidan Gillen reviews his actions with Vulture.
We only had a few scenes with Littlefinger in season six. But one thing he was trying to do consistently was sow some kind of seed of disquiet with Sansa in terms of Jon, and how closely related they really are, and how valid he really is as a king, or a leader, or a brother, while at the same time encouraging what might be her own position. There’s a certain amount of, “I told you so. Is this what you want? Can you trust him?” And all of that has been said anyway, in the previous scene. But there’s also a degree of excitement, because the lords are pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow, and we didn’t necessarily know it would go that way. Speaking for Littlefinger, it was one of those moments where you go, “Fuck! Maybe this is a bigger thing than I thought it would be. How are we going to deal with this?” Given that he enjoys chaos and uncertainty and the thrill of all of that, it was a big moment for him.
Will Sansa be tempted by Littlefinger’s promises of power or will she remain true to the new King in the North? Gillen dissects Littlefinger’s impact on Sansa:
She really is becoming more like me. More Baelish–like in the way she’s operating, and the fact that she’s operating at all. She has become a player under my tutelage, and that’s what I wanted. There’s a scene way back when we’re discussing a battle, a scene with Cersei, and we’re talking about Stannis and the Boltons, and letting the two of them tear each other apart, and coming in at the last minute with the Knights of the Vale. Who’s to say that Sansa wasn’t thinking of doing something like that as well? Let them kill each other. Again, it’s not likely, but not impossible.
Has our little bird really become that mischievous?
He also touches on the possibilities of his betrayal of Ned Stark coming back to haunt him:
I guess in times like that, it would be difficult to know what information would be widely, readily, quickly available. By the time a story gets out, there might be 40 different versions of it. And if you are a manipulative, political type, you’ll make sure to get your counterstory out immediately. And then you can assume there’s some leeway — if you ever are confronted with it, you can say, “Yeah, but it wasn’t quite the way you heard it.” I very obviously held a dagger to Ned Stark’s throat, which as television viewers saw in massive close-up, but the part of the story that’s the most damning evidence of betrayal — my holding a dagger to his throat — may not be out there. Everybody didn’t see it. But yeah, things come home to roost, and we are approaching the endgame, and things are going to get trickier for everyone, but particularly for people who have spun webs of lies and deceit.
Gillen delves more into the mind of his sinister character at Vulture!
Variety spoke with Turner, and asked for her opinion on people thinking Sansa and Jon might get together. She says:
Oh my god, really? I haven’t actually heard that. Stranger things on “Game of Thrones” have happened… Maybe politically, it makes sense, I honestly don’t know how I would feel about that, I’d have to speak to the producers about that one. Honestly, what I think is going to happen – and I don’t know where the story is going to go, but I think Jon and Daenerys are going to end up together, probably. I feel like Jon and Sansa would be a strange one, especially because isn’t it considered not legitimate if you haven’t consummated the marriage, and I really don’t think either of them would be particularly up for that. It would be very difficult to do that. [Laughs.]
How do you think this Sansa/Littlefinger alliance will fare? Will she be throwing another repugnant man to the dogs? Let us know below!
HODOR!!
I’m actually hoping the Petyr Baelish/Sansa stark plan works out actually. I like darth Sansa and her learning to play the game from him is just great!
Hodor
Just leave Jon and his man bun in peace please.He has gone through so much shit and will go through more with the ice zombies he doesn’t need a backstabbing sister-cousin on top of that.Not that I believe anything of what they are saying but just in case.Also they are wrong lol
Finger Blocked
“…she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.”
Muah hahahahahaha
“Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.”
She said it herself.
Oh for the love of the Old Gods and the New Sansa don’t do anything stupid.
Littlefinger could be a real trouble for the North. I hope Sansa manages to outplay him.
Please dont let Sansa betray Jon…….. or something
I really don’t understand what any of these people have been saying since episode 10 aired. Literally like the exact opposite things happened in episode 10 from what they’ve been saying.
orange,
Maybe that’s intentional to keep suspense for next season. Interviews are not always 100% correct and even these two do not completely match. It often happens that they overdramatize the stuff, but the actual resolution is pretty “normal”.
Of course you’d post a good article when I have to leave….
Before I go though, this whole business reminds of that saying about who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes (or something to that effect)? What she’s trying to convey is not what I saw on the screen. So, either she’s trolling or the acting/directing was way off.
Also, what she *thinks* will happen and what will actually happen could be two very different things, especially given that she doesn’t have the scripts yet. I’ll start paying more careful attention to what she *thinks* will happen after she get the scripts. Things will be concrete…and oh so interesting then.
Finally, Sophie changes what that look meant in seemingly every interview. In one of her Spanish interviews (when the interviewer asked what the look meant) she says:
“You were right in what you told me, but if you think I’m going to be on your side now, you’re mistaken.”
So, you know. Grain…salt…all of that jazz.
Side note, I love Aiden’s interviews because I think he understands his character better than most. Love his analysis on Littlefinger.
*flips table*
Shtoopid girl!!!!
Actually, if LF wins this whole game, he’ll certainly have worked for it.
Can Jon get maybe a break for 5 minutes from conspirators? Come on! ?
Sophie really is perfectly cast. As much as comments like these grate against the Jon-loyalty in me, I love how all of the actors and actresses on the show seem to be typecast (except Ramsay and Joffrey and the like, of course). Liam really adores children: just so adorable how he raves about his babies. Sophie truly believes Sansa is a boss ass bitch. Kit is quite into feisty tomboys who happen to be ginger.
Its too bad that Margery is gone and can’t be around Sansa with good advice. She needs someone to advise her, but Sansa has been advised and mentored by Cersei, LF, and to some extent Ramsey; she wants to play the game, she wants to be good at it, she wants to come in her own. But she has always been so sheltered that I am not sure she is able to do so. Shes a smart young woman but I don’t think she has the street smarts to make it in this game the way she wants to. I like Sansa and how she’s changed – more cautious, stronger – but shes still so afraid and needing direction. Im not sure who would give her that right now – Maybe Brienne comes back and acts as her Hand before she gets herself in too much trouble
Thinking more – does Sansa know what she wants? If so, what is it?
orange,
They are doing it on purpose to keep people talking because things ended too well for our favourite characters.What Sophie says is literally contradicted by the scenes in the episode.Sansa will kill littlefinger next season but they can’t telegrapg that yet and they want us to #worry
Don’t buy it. Not based on how it was portrayed and acted out in the show. And if indeed that is what Sansa is thinking at the end, to join alliance with LF to betray JS, then both Sophie and show runners did not do a good job portraying it in the show.
My guess is they are baiting readers/audience to stay hooked and be worried about Jon’s safety in S7, just like they did in the last off season. Fool me once…
I agree. I just love my gruesome twosome more than Jon! Haha… I’m evil, I know.
Ginevra,
I’m reminded of Stephen Dillane perfect casting haha
Subtext, baby. Read the subtext.
I have a feeling that Bran will be at the Godswood for the remainder of his life being the 3-Eyed Raven.
I wonder if Baelish will try to pin Jon into a corner.
LITTLEFINGER: “King Snow…”
JON: “What is it, Lord Baelish? Be quick about it. I have no time for your deceits.”
LITTLEFINGER: “Your words are harsh, your grace. I merely come bearing news… of your uncle.”
JON: “…”
I’m sure Sansa would have received more credit if she had not hidden the army from her own allies. Southron politics aren’t exactly the best fit in the North. Jon’s loyalty and honor are obviously much more appreciated in the North and, as a result, he gains more followers. Idk how this character can expect to have Jon trust her when she hides things from him lol. She’s really been played by Littlefinger this whole season. She’s far from being a player.
Looking forward to interviews from some other actors.
What did you all think of Sansa’s last glare to LF? Based on history of Sophie’s portrayal of emotions so far in the series, was she trying to project worry towards LF’s intentions/Jon’s safety or projecting jealousy towards Jon and a possible alliance with LF? I clearly took it to be the former but my wife thought the latter.
Based on how Sophie emotes I can see why it might be a tough call.
You know who was there to see him do that? The Hound.
You know who is likely headed North next season? The Hound.
OKKK. Do people really expect that for the next 13 episodes Jon and Sansa will eat beautiful breakfast in Winterfell and say everyday how much they love each other, until beautiful Dany comes….to join them with her beautiful dragons and beautiful smart Tyrion??
Together with beautiful Arya and beautiful Bran the fight the ugly WW, and they win. Jon and Dany take the throne and have beautiful children?
Come on! Of course there has to be a story there, Sansa has to move on her own. She can’t play Jon’s sister who doesn’t do anything.
Also on Jon-Sansa-Arya/Dany. All is incest. You can’t be like Lannisters are gross, but i really hope the hero of the story do incest because he is beautiful and Sansa is beautiful and Dany is beautiful.
And before you say “They are cousins”, adoptive children are kids of their parents and siblings of their brothers/sisters. I know it’s fantasy but it is cruel to say that.
With all the talk about women coming into power this season, it occurs to me that Sansa could use a wise and experienced female role model about now. Her mother and Septa were just grooming her to be somebody’s proper lady; Cersei mentored her in the Game, but only in a toxic way. Her other mentors have all been male. It is too bad that her relationship with Margaery was so minimal. I don’t see Brienne as someone she can really relate to. She needs someone to show her a healthy alternative way for women to be that’s both within Sansa’s wheelhouse and viable in medieval society, so that she doesn’t have to make things up as she goes along.
Seems to me that it is about identity. Next season will be for Sansa what the last two seasons has been for Arya. Is she a Stark or not?
I don’t see any reason why “Lady Sandra” should have been chosen as leader over Jon. Just because the Vale knights came in to save the day, does not make her fit for such an important position. Jon’s a proven leader, a battle tested warrior who inspired thousands of men to follow him and he’s an honorable man, even if not too terribly bright on the show. Hell, Lyanna Mormont would have been a better choice than Sanser. Another thing is, has she forgotten how Littlefinger betrayed her father in Kings Landing? I can’t remember exactly what he said in that scene with Varys, Cersei and Pycelle when they were trying to get her to write a letter to Robb, but I’m certain he wasn’t defending her. She’s seen him betray almost every ally and also, she just spurned him by rejecting his advances. If he can’t get what he wants out of her, then she’s just another pawn in his game. It’s kind of baffling the things Sophie Turner says about Sansa, I get she’s biased, but some of it is just plain dumb and false.
People seem to forget that Tywin’s wife was his cousin. Marrying cousins in this world is normal- siblings not so much.
Jon and Sansa were raised as siblings. It would just… be weird.
Well Jon’s the bloody hero, everybody likes Jon. It feels like the further they take the “Jon vs. Sansa” conflict angle, the more people may start to dislike Sansa again. And all of these interviews about it seem to be reading more into the potential conflict than was actually there in the show.
Fancy word for a sellsword,
lol
Steff, Lidi,
I’m kinda with you. I hated Baelish for holding that knife to Ned’s throat but his conniving ways kinda grew on me when he started mentoring Sansa and pushed Lysa out the Moon Door lol. Yes, I know that was all for his own benefit but I also think in his own weird way he does genuinely care for Sansa. And it’s good entertainment! I think he wants the best possible outcome for both of them. I’m not advocating Creepfinger and Sansa get married but it would be cool if he turned into a true anti-hero at some point. It won’t happen though I’m sure. Still, fun to watch him stir the pot. Hm, wonder what LF would think after seeing White Walkers for the first time…?
King in the Midwest,
I thought it was rather the former, namely Sansa worrying about LF’s intentions and Jon’s safety.
It’s really hard for me to imagine a different scenario after ep.10… but who knows, in a year we’ll find it out.
Off topic. But out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about the fact that HBO officially revealed R + L = J is 100% confirmed in one of their infographics?
Seriously, the only things Jon did “wrong” this season were pulling the Leeroy Jenkins (which ultimately may have won him more respect from Northerners, helping him get crowned King in the North) and waiting until his other advisers had left the tent before listening to Sansa’s counsel. How is that enough to cause all this supposed conflict?
He didn’t even really get mad at Sansa over withholding info about the Vale knights.
She doesn’t know about that.
Flayed Potatoes,
I wonder if the Northern people have realized that she let them go to war without telling them about the Vale army. They wouldn’t have appreciated that. I mean, if Sansa wants credit for saving the Northern army by bringing in the Vale army, wouldn’t she first have to answer why she kept the info hidden?
I enjoyed reading Aidan Gillen’s take on the situation.
The writers don’t want you to think about that, because it was all ultimately just to manufacture suspense. Hence, e.g., Jon’s blase reaction to her not telling him about it, suggesting it’s a simple trust issue, rather than something that got potentially thousands of his men killed.
I don’t know if I blame the writers, director, or Sophie Turner’s performance, but what they are saying in these post-season interviews was not properly portrayed on screen. And the problem is they think it was.
The frustrating thing is they could have very easily gotten over to the audience that Sansa is jealous about Jon “stealing” her birthright, which is what Cat always feared, by adding in just one scene of Jon telling Sansa that he would support her claim as Lady of Winterfell when the Northern Lords came. And then when the kingofdanorf scene happened, she could have a legitimate reason to be bitter at Jon. That conflict would be two sided as Sansa would feel her birth right was stolen and Jon would feel like he couldn’t turn down what the North wanted and needed to fight the white walkers.
As it stands now, Jon has done nothing but bend over backwards for Sansa, so it’s hard to find any real conflict between them. “Jon didn’t take my advice” comes across as soooooo hollow and false when he flat out asked her what should she do and she shrugged her shoulders instead of giving him a reason to wait.
It’s a super frustrating plot development because it has such an easy fix.
Kamali,
I absolutely 100% agree with you.
I’m seeing all these comments about Sansa’s jealousy and her “right”, but she really didn’t do anything to deserve it.
She called in the knights of the Vale, but if she hadn’t kept that secret it might have saved hundreds of lives.
She simultaneously killed and saved them.
Kamali,
That’s exactly what I was trying to say. D&D and now Turner are talking about stuff that simply wasn’t there. They keep acting like Jon did something wrong when he really didn’t.
Sean C.,
That’s what I think too. This was supposed to be a straightforward Sansa saves the day situation. But it did not ultimately come across that way. Whether intentional or not, this has made her motivations seem even more obtuse.
A Man Grown,
But Jon didn’t wait for other people to leave to listen to her.She is the one who waited to talk.Jon would have listened to her whenever she spoke as he has always.Also she wants credit for saving the battle,which Jon gave anyway,but if she had been honest they wouldn’t need saving in the first place.Also who says the north doesn’t know how the battle went.Clearly the Mormonts Hornwoods and Mazins know and have told people and considering it’s the Vale obviously they would assume they allied because of Sansa since Robyn is her cousin and has nothing to Jon.But they still prefered Jon because they appreciate his valor and don’t give a fuck about southron politics.It’s not Jon’s fault
Quinton O’Connor,
LOL. This is perfect.
A Man Grown,
Yes, if there is a conflict, it seems totally manufactured…hope they don’t go with this. Too easy and too like typical TV plots
A Man Grown,
Benioff, in one of the Inside the Episodes, indicated that he saw Sansa’s complaints about not being asked anything at the war council in 609 as a legitimate gripe, which really makes little sense to me.
If that’s supposed to have been a thing, why did they write the earlier war council in 605 where Sansa speaks up several times without being asked?
Kamali,
That is exactly my point. For an otherwise such a well made episode, I can’t believe that the producers would miss out on something like this. That is why I think this is just a way to keep the suspense until the next season.
So either Sophie/Show runners messed up and didn’t get their point across and there is supposed to be a genuine conflict brewing between Sansa and JS or these interviews are just supposed to mess with our heads. Given the history, I’d guess the former.
King in the Midwest,
I meant given the history, I’d guess the latter..
On Mel. I wonder if her going south means she will cross paths with Arya, as she said she would see her again. Would be cool to see how Arya reacts to hearing about Jon being Killed and brought back and then winning the war against the Boltons.
LF is toast next season as Night’s King is coming to kill everyone. In general we’re slowly moving from schemes towards bigger fight. Of course Jon is needed more than any of them. Sansa seems to be safe. Jon’s parentage could play a part, Bran and who knows if he’ll be King because of that or others things.
Jon is getting ass kicked everywhere he goes. Walkers, Boltons, Wildlings. Always someone had to save him and bertrayed by his brothers and now maybe by his sister or cousin. The guy should just join Night’s King and be done with it.
White Walkers seems like a good option. Friendly enviroment, loyalty above everything, he could fight and nobody is going to bertray you.
I really enjoy Adrian’s take on it. While I hate LF but part of me loves him. He just knows things and can manipulate people for his needs and what he wants from them. But he made a mistake by revealing his ultimate goal which is Iron Throne and Sansa might used it fo her.
When Sophie mentioned scene where Jon said we need to trust each other. I think Jon really meant both of them but Sophie thinks it’s the other way. Confused by her views because it seemed like a geniune conversation.
Flayed Potatoes,
For her to think that she’s gonna get more credit than Jon is kind of insane. Seeing it from the Lords (and Lady) perspective, Jon was the one fighting, Jon was the one who put his life on the line. Jon is the one the Wildlings are following. Jon in their eyes = strength. Jon is the one who’s telling them about the Others. Who the hell are they going to choose as a leader in such times? Sansa? Probably not. I mean I think they would go for Lady Mormont before going for Sansa.
Sansa brought the Lords of the Vale true enough but did it in such a sneaky way that of course she won’t get the credit she thinks she deserves. Anyone other than Jon would suspect Sansa just a bit but Jon can’t for his life detect malice. Not from a man who abused him from day one, much less from a sister he loves. Jon is pretty much Ned. He’s not meant for the game of thrones but unfortunately he will be thrown into it. Can’t we give him Bran and Arya to counterbalance Little Finger? And Mel really sucks, her fires should have warn her about Little Finger and that should have been her last gift to Jon before she departed.
Josh L,
A little bit on “Isaac Hempstead Wright and Robert Aramayo discuss the Tower of Joy and Game of Thrones’ endgame.” Mostly about the significance of the “abducted” key in the map and whether or not Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.
Darjan,
Sansa is Lady of WF being the oldest known child of Ned. She is Lady of WF as widow to Ramsay. And her “army” won the battle. Not to take one side or the other but she has a legitimate “claim” to WF. I don’t think she knows about LF and Ned (yet).
I gotta say, LF in season 6 was nothing if not helpful. He saved the day. He tried some wedge comments on Sansa but that was pretty mild for him. He could still have some treachery planned but atm he’s playing nice.
Chris2010,
Yea she said it to Jon… confirming what he already thinks and what he wants to hear from Sansa.. 😉
Danny,
I can’t wait for Bran and Arya to reunite with Jon. It needs to happen soon.
I don’t believe Sansa has good intentions for the new King in the North. You see her smile fade the moment Lyanna Mormont reaches her second point
“We know no King in the North whose name is Stark, I don’t care if he is a bastard…”
Right there Sansa looks disappointed, it was setup as a Queen in the North coronation moment, and the rug goes right out from under her. Then each lord goes to praise Jon for defeating the Boltons and avenging the Red Wedding, and in reality Jon nearly lost to the Bolton’s had it not been for Sansa’s hard won alliance to bring the Knights of the Vale to the rescue (Think of what she endured for Little Finger, and she got no credit.)
Her face remains cold as the cheer “The King in the North” rises up until the moment Jon looks at her, and she gives him a small and seemingly insincere smile to before looking at Little Finger with an inscrutable expression.
Hate to say it, I love that scene more than almost any other scene in the series, but it is bitter sweet if the show runners follow through with these subtle hints next season.
King in the Midwest,
Agree with you. To me, she initially seemed to be sharing a moment of pride and genuine happiness with Jon. When she laid eyes on LF, her mood shifted to concern and worry over what his next move might be. She is fully aware that LF poses a future threat to both Jon and her, if she keeps rejecting him.
I don’t agree with all their decisions but Benioff and Weiss are better writers than what people complain about. That being said, if I was supposed to sense Jon/Sansa tension leading to a Jon/Sansa power struggle in season 7 than this is one of their worst writing moments in the series run. I got none of that. The scenes were not written, directed or acted like that. He said she was responsible for them being there, she apologized for not telling him, he said she’s the Lady of Winterfell, she said she views him as a Stark. She said only a fool would trust LF. How are any of these writing decisions for episode 10 supposed to lead the viewer to conclude that there is Jon/Sansa tension?
Red Raider of the High Plains,
I would have been right there with you if during the scene where Jon offers Sansa their fathers bedchamber, Jon would have told Sansa that he was going to make sure she received credit when the Northern Lords came, and perhaps even support her claim as queen. It would have set the stage for the audience to expect Sansa to be named queen in the north and only for awesome misdirection where the Lords completely ignore Sansa and declare Jon their King before he has a chance to follow through on his promise to give Winterfell to her. And THEN Sansa could look at Littlefinger and realize he was right, the Northern Lords completely disrespected her during their tour, and even after the battle has been won, still don’t acknowledge her.
It would be a genuine conflict where I could see both sides of the argument – Sansa feeling slighted that Jon didn’t follow through – and Jon feeling as if a united north is what they need most.
The subtext of that is still there but the show is usually good about putting conflicts into razor sharp focus. The picture is way too blurry and muddled as if stands at the end of season 6.
I’m right there with you that I would love it as a bittersweet development if it was done right.
Lidi,
if it does arya will kill her
That is exactly how I took the scene. That Sansa supported Jon but when she saw Littlefinger, was nervous about what Lord Baelish was going to do now that she rejected him after he exposed his plight to her.
I was shocked to read the interviews from the showrunners and Sophie that suggest otherwise.
this right here is why he is soo dangerous. He has not been “playing nice” at all.
-In his very first scene he was already trying to put a wedge between Sansa and Jon.
-He showed up at the battle on HIS terms, following his plans that HE set up in season 5 with Cersie by waiting till both armies could not stand against his and then he chose the side that would help him reach HIS goal
-he then laid all his cards out, promising her a place beside HIM when HE sits the Iron Throne.. and he did this on purpose..like a final test. She will pass or fail that test next season.
Yes, we will spend a few weeks gnashing our teeth and pounding our heads against the wall as Sansa makes things 100x more difficult for Jon and drives him to the VERY end of his rope (like all good sisters do to older brothers) but in the end Littlefinger will get the “reward” she promised him,the fandom will rejoice and for one shining moment we will all be #TeamSansa
Red Raider of the High Plains,
I’m not sure I would describe Sansa’s alliance as hard-won. Littlefinger offered his army to her on a plate and though she snubbed him at first, all she then needed to do was write him one letter asking him To come to their rescue. Sansa feels she is owed Winterfell and the North, but hasn’t done anything that would inspire allegiance in the northerners themselves. Yes, by birthright, Winterfell is hers (but not the title of Queen in the North), but in truth, she used deception during the BOB and did not put herself at risk for the north at all (not that you would expect her to, not all women are Brienne of Tarth and knee-deep in the battle!). Jon on the other hand valiantly fought for his northern countrymen and would have died for them. He also had an excellent reputation in the north preceding the battle (Ramsay’s reference to the north thinking of him as the best swordsman that ever lived). I think it was very naive of Sansa to believe everyone would follow her. Jon has given his adult life to the watch to protect the north, first against wildlings and then against the army of the dead. Sansa has been marrying (against her will, this is obviously so not her fault) their enemies and hasn’t been in the north since she was a child. She also arrives with the Vale, which she kept hidden from her supposed allies. I really think she is very naive to think this will inspire loyalty.
I like that Sansa is growing in strength and that her character has finally developed into the powerful woman she was set up to be this season, but at the same time, these interviews and Sophie Turner explaining her thoughts to us, is making me feel a little frustrated with her character once more. Family is more important to the Starks than anything, but Sanda doesn’t seem to be behaving that way.
Cersei’s Brain,
Good points. The Northmen care more about valor, honor, and Stark blood than they do about the Knights of the Vale, that’s for sure. And Jon was at the Wall while Sansa spent years in the South.
selena,
“He showed up at the battle on HIS terms, following his plans that HE set up in season 5 with Cersie by waiting till both armies could not stand against his and then he chose the side that would help him reach HIS goal”
In theory, this is correct. However, the BotB played out with him arriving only AFTER Sansa sent for him. Would he have stayed home without the raven message? Would he have cleared the ashes if Sansa never wrote? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Jon will obviously focus on the North. Sansa is free to look to the south to secure the southern borders and ask for aid.
Baelish is free to take over the Twins from the now headless and incompetent Frey’s. The Tully’s should rise up as the Lannister army is either going to be stuck at home or defending Kings Landing.
Aryn and/or Tully should be able to wipe out the Frey’s. Although that leads to a BWB storyling in the Riverlands.
When Baelish hears of the arrival of Daenerys he is going to have to adjust his plan to get close enough to meddle. Varys and Tyrion are familiar with Baelish.
Chris2010,
Quite. What planet is she on ? ?
Red Raider of the High Plains,
I think her smile to Jon was pretty much sincere. Remember that she offered him lord’s bedchamber and called him a Stark. But yes, she is conflicted between LF and Jon and that look to LF could either mean “Maybe you are right” or actually “I sense some trouble”. LF’s look was pretty sinister in that scene.
Tycho Nestoris,
yes, he would have been there. Sansa writing to him and ASKING for his help when she had refused it before was just the extra cherry on top
I can’t buy into Sansa trusting Little Finger at all at this point. She may be a little jealous of Jon, but she flat out says “Only a fool would trust Little Finger”.
Lord Parramandas,
I fully agree with you… I read her fading smile as concern for LF’s machinations since things didn’t go his way.
ZERO sympathy for Sansa. She was at the war council. She could’ve spoken up. She could’ve told Jon about the Littlefinger meeting. She could’ve been upfront. She withheld. She lied. Zero sympathy.
If the show takes her to the conniving side, I’m gonna be pissed. It makes no sense for her to do that. She was sold by Littlefinger to a monster. How the heck would a person ever get past that?
Was so hoping Brienne of Tarth woulda been there to slice Littlefinger’s head off as soon as he got done making his offer to Sansa.
Please, Benioff and Weiss, do not go in the Shady Sansa direction. Dumb.
Flayed Potatoes,
Agreed.
Now I don’t know what to make of the direction of the story. Either Sophie Turner is really bad at conveying certain emotions, or something weird is going on.
She was smiling, until she noticed LF in the corner looking angry about Jon being named King in the North, and then she looked worried.
I feel like most people would interpret that as Sansa being concerned that LF may try to undermine Jon and realizing that he is going to be a problem for them.
If that was meant to be Sansa reconsidering an alliance with LF because she didn’t get the credit she thinks she deserve, Sophie really didn’t succeed at portraying that in my opinion.
Ginevra,
Gasp! You mean Sansa could be feeling *two* things in that moment!?
Yeah, the subtly and ambiguity of that moment seems to be lost on some people.
A Man Grown,
And Jon is famed as a warrior while Sansa is known to have spent years with the Lannisters.
Darjan,
I agree with much of what you said, but you are mistaken about the scene with Cersei, Varys, Pycelle, Littlefinger and Sansa.
Baelish was defending her, saying she is innocent and should be given a chance to prove herself. Pycelle was the one talking shit.
A Man Grown,
Nope, and he even praised her for winning the battle, saying she deserved to be Lady of Winterfell.
And then Sophie Turner says in one of the BTS videos that Jon didn’t give her the credit she deserves.
I really have no idea where she gets this stuff.
Kamali,
I agree with everything you said, and based on all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff I’ve watched, I think the writers, the director, and Sophie Turner all share responsibility in this failure to convey the story they thought they were telling.
Flayed Potatoes,
All I’m saying is backup, right? I mean if the show remains true to Arya’s character, she wouldn’t let anyone harm a single hair on Jon’s head. And Bran, Bran would be pragmatic about it all. He understands the big picture and he’s always had a handle on Jon’s character:
Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.
Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.
“The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”
To everyone:
Varys didn’t went back to Meereen. He join Dany’s armada at Sunspear. Look the Ice and Fire world map from Meereen to Dorne. And they’re going to the Iron Islands because Dany made a promise to Yara and Theon. (And the Tyrell ships join them most likely at Highgarden)
From Aidan Gillen’s interview to Huffingtonpost.com.
When asked if we should be worried about Sansa and Jon’s relationship, Gillen said, Do you mean after the scene where it’s implied strongly who Jon’s parents really are? Well, their relationship has a new potential now in light of that for sure. Although, I think having being brought up as siblings, they’re not going to want to go there. Anyway, while the viewers saw it in flashback, it’s secret from a long time bck, so who know? But someone must and I wouldn’t rule anything out.”
What are your thoughts on that look Littlefinger gave Sansa while everyone was chanting “King in the North”. What was the meaning? What were you trying to convey?
Well, that’s in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it? We have to keep a certain amount to ourselves, and it’s probably not as interesting for everyone to be explained. There’s the obvious note that I’m checking with Sansa on something I’ve flagged to her already this season a couple of time- Jon Snow is not really your brother.
What are your thought on the big reveal that Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow’s mother? Do you think Littlefinger already knows?
I thought it was a great moment, but like I said earlier that while it was revealed to the audience, not many characters would know. Or if they’d kept it a secret for so long, why would they break now? Of course, it’s being revealed to the audience for a reason yet to be ascertained. So does Littlefinger know? Well, now that you mention it…
Interesting that Littlefinger might know something more and Aiden never really refused it. That look he gave to Sansa in the cryps. Interesting to see what he knows and can prove.
I’m really curious how Brienne would handle a Sansa/Littlefinger alliance against Jon. All she wants is someone (honorable) to follow and serve (for more than a few episodes till they die). It might break her once and for all.
I believe the point is meant to be that publicly Jon (and everybody else) ignores her at the council. Structurally, the three Sansa scenes in the episode seem to be positioned as:
1) Sansa & Jon: Jon tells her they would have lost the battle without her, etc. This is meant to establish for the audience that she was the person primarily responsible for their victory (which, yes, in and of itself there’s a bunch of questionable writing choices, but that’s how the writers are presenting it).
2) Sansa & Littlefinger: Littlefinger reminds the audience that Sansa is the legitimate heir (er, except Bran, but everybody in Winterfell seems to have forgotten about him).
3) The council scene: Suddenly (and really, without much explanation), absolutely everybody in the room is praising Jon to the heavens and he is elected king, on the basis that he avenged the Red Wedding, is the best thing since sliced bread, they don’t care that he’s a bastard, etc. Not one of the speakers in this scene so much as mentions Sansa, even though she’s sitting right there, and all the things the previous scenes set up.
There are a bunch of reasons, which other people here have already laid out, why this doesn’t really connect with many people.
Red Raider of the High Plains,
Nope. I have watched that scene several times, her expressions do not change through out that scene until her eyes catch LF lurking in the back of the room. And also, if becoming QiTN was her real intention why didn’t she grab LF offer to become QiTN? When Jon offered her to be the Lady of Winterfell, which comes with master bed, why did she tell him ‘no, you deserve to be the lord of this castle’?? She was all in for Jon being KiTN IMO.
Easily fixed in one conversation. “Jon is going north to fight. We can worry about him, if, IF he comes back. While he is gone …..”
orange,
B-I-N-G-O…and Bingo was his name-o!!!!
I couldn’t have written it any better!!
Stavross,
MIND BLOWN!! Damn a whole series of events and possibilities flashed before my eyes! I really want to have the hound, initially treated poorly by the Stark guards brought before Sansa and call her “little bird.” Everyone looks ath them suspiciously, Sansa has him released. Then proceed to say he was guiding her sister north till some “woman” knocked him off a bloody cliff. “Oh and whats that little C^#T doing here.. he held a knife to your fathers throat when he turned Kings Landing over to that B Queen” figure there would be lots of cursing lol
I read the look from Sansa to LF as concern & worry – she knows how scheming and damaging he can be. I can see her trying to control LF which may not work the way she hopes at first and she may keep her concerns from Jon which would be a mistake.
But there are two dangers coming (I believe) LF’s way.
The Hound, mentioned in the article with Aiden, knows of LF’s roll in Ned’s fate and…
Arya who was in the room when LF and Tywin were discussing Robb’s army and a the Stark daughters.
Only one of those revelations to Jon or Sansa will bring him down. Both revelations, well…I don’t think even LF can talk his way out of.
orange,
Only thing I can say is that show runners did not suggest any tension between them through out the episode and that it only started when Sansa saw all the leaders of North singing JS praises and declared him the KiTN, and LF meaningful look to her saying “I told you so!”
This is my interpretation, Sophie’s interview simply makes zero sense to me.
First we have Jon and Sansa talking outside at Winterfell. Jon says he had the lord and lady chamber prepared for her. She then says why not you, Jon says he is not a Stark, and Sansa says she is as much a Stark as she is as far as she is concerned. She then apologizes for not informing Jon of the Vale army, Jon forgives and says we need to trust each other, and they embrace. Finally, Jon asks if they can trust Lord Baelish. Sansa says Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.
Next scene in this thread, we have Sansa talking to Littlefinger. Littlefinger confesses to Sansa that he wants the Iron Throne and her by his side. He tries to embrace her, she pushes him away. Finally, Littlefinger tries to sow new seeds of mistrust in Sansa about Jon once again.
Finally, we have the King in the North Scene. Both Jon and Sansa seemed stunned by the huge support for him as King in the North, Jon looks in shock at Sansa, and she smiles at him. She is then smiling until she and littlefinger match eyes. The triumphant Stark music suddenly becomes somber when Littlefinger is in frame, and he is glaring at Sansa, Sansa’s smile fades, and her mouth is slightly open, realizing they have made a powerful enemy now.
The writers did show Sansa was jealous but it was subtle and by the looks of the posts here, too subtle for many to pick up on. Sansa shows her surprise at Jon being picked over her when Lady Mormont says “I only know one king and their name is Stark”. Sansa is looking down with a huge smile on her face that falls off when Lady Mormont continues that “he may be a bastard”. Some have picked up on it, many haven’t but it is definitely what was shown in the episode.
Yes, she tells Jon “you take the Lord’s chamber” in their too brief heart to heart talk but that’s before she meets with Littlefinger who reminds her of her true born rights. Her talk with Jon isn’t any real discussion about anything other than Winter arriving. There’s no clear reason given for Sansa withholding information or any real consensus of who ultimately will get the Lord’s bedchamber and even if there had been, it looks like at the time, Sansa did believe Jon should get it. That seems to have changed after she spoke to LF.
Red Raider of the High Plains has the right of it according to Time magazine:
“That’s a pretty picture,” she says smoothly, rebuffing his declaration of love and seeming to confirm her lack of interest in returning to King’s Landing, leaving Littlefinger in the lurch. But not so fast: later in the episode, as the Northern bannermen all rally around Jon Snow and proclaim him King in the North, Sansa’s smile falters in the midst of celebration as she and Littlefinger share a look. In many ways, she is responsible for bringing Jon back to Winterfell and setting him up for victory. But there’s no credit given her — by Jon, or by any of the Northerners assembled in the hall — and, suddenly, Littlefinger’s offer might be looking rather more appealing.
There’s a scene way back when we’re discussing a battle, a scene with Cersei, and we’re talking about Stannis and the Boltons, and letting the two of them tear each other apart, and coming in at the last minute with the Knights of the Vale. Who’s to say that Sansa wasn’t thinking of doing something like that as well? Let them kill each other. Again, it’s not likely, but not impossible.I like this. What Sansa does with the Vale is only rational if she is playing a game: Hide the Vale, “let them kill each other,” and only then send in the rescue. Without that sort of reasoning, Sansa is behaving irrationally, which is ridiculous as Littlefinger is her mentor, the way Jaqen was Arya’s mentor, and Bloodraven was Bran’s mentor. Bran is a prophet. Arya is an assassin. Sansa should be a player, not a traumatized, helpless damsel.
…also, Sansa’s game (if it was a game) failed. Jon survived and Sansa was screwed. She did save the day by sending in the Vale. She is the sole surviving legitimate Stark (Sansa is the only one who knows Bran might still be alive). Yet that meeting raises its swords for the bastard who undid his own battle strategy and nearly destroyed his entire army. If I were Sansa, I’d be thinking that maybe I sent in the Vale too early.
Yes Jon says we need to trust each other. So? Did Sansa immediately decide “Yes, I must do that and so must Jon and stifle her mistrust? What exactly was resolved by this conversation? Nothing as far as I can tell.
Precisely. LF stokes the fires that were already simmering in episode 9. Sansa feels that she must take care of herself since no one else will.
Yes, Sansa is shocked and her smile is never quite the same after Jon is chosen as it was when she thought it was going to be her. And we don’t know what she is thinking when she looks at LF but it is clear that she is not happy. Nothing has really changed from her angry scene in ep 9 as far as she’s concerned. She’s still not the one calling the shots and she’s going to have to continue to take care of herself.
I understand Sansa felt a little jealous about Jon. The Northerners not even look at her. It’s all about Jon, the White Wolf. But … if they include a plot of Sansa and Littlefinger planning to harm Jon, I would be really disappointed (more than when Stannis agreed to sacrifice Shireen). Is Sansa supposed to become Cersei????
I suppose they need some interesting plot for the North, while the war happens in the south. But, I expect more of a personal struggle of Jon with the truth about his parentage. Hopefully, we’ll get more flashbacks for Bran. I hope they don’t prolong the meeting between Bran, Jon and Arya.
I expect the Stark ladies will want to take revenge on Cersei, while the Stark boys will focus on the White Walkers threat.
GoGo777,
Sure, but they are two very different feelings. One is a feeling of worry to protect a member of family, while the other is a feeling of jealousy against the same family member. Don’t think you can have both those diametrically opposite feelings at the same time, unless you’re bipolar.
ash,
Given what happened with Joffrey, Cersei, and Ramsay, and the mental, physical and emotional abuse she sufferred, my guess would be that she never wants to be in a position again where someone could treat her in a similar fashion. She realizes that the only person who can protect her is herself and that the best way to avoid situations like that is to always be in control. The exchange with Jon about him protecting her as an example. She will find it very difficult to trust anyone else to protect her again.
When I saw the KITN scene even for the first time, I watched Sansa and her reactions. I saw her revealing very little. She smiled but did she smile because she was happy or because that was what was expected. And the look with LF, I saw something very ambigious, that certainly could be interpreted as more than knowing LF will now be an enemy. And that’s how I interpreted it even before Sophie, Kit, Liam, and Aidan provided their commentary.
And to create dramatic tension, it would appear better to me if there was doubt as to whether Sansa would side with Jon or LF as oppposed to it being obvious it was Jon/Sansa vs. LF.
Markus Stark,
Unless they are trolling us.
I think the age of the actors reflect their interpretations of the story. Gillen is more mature and he is able to talk about LF’s thinking without giving too much away. Sophie is either totally misunderstanding the story by being a whiny child saying Sansa didn’t get appreciation for saving Jon’s ass not considering the fact he would have made a better plan if he knew they had a large cavalry in store, nor explaining any reasons why Sansa hid that from Jon – the readers here came up with so many suggestions, and all Sophie can think of is ‘he is her half-brother, sibling jealousy, etc’, or she is literally being a little bird who repeats what David and Dan taught her to say, to build up anxiety among audience. Much like “Jon Snow is dead, deal with it” gag that Maisie Williams did after season 5.
Sansa does have the right to be disappointed that no one acknowledged her publicly, but we don’t know what discussions were going on before the KitN scene started. Yohn Royce was the first to speak, and it seemed he did not start that discussion. And it was Sansa and Arya who avenged Red Wedding more than Jon. Jon’s motivations were protecting his remaining family and to unite the North to have a better chance fighting the Others, not revenge (at least until Ramsay killed Rickon). But to say Sansa thinks ‘LF is a more trustworthy ally than she initially thought’? Wasn’t it Sophie’s character who said ‘only a fool would trust Littlefinger’ in the same episode? LF did plant some seeds of doubt in Sansa’s head after that, but Sophie calling him trustworthy really got me.
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r-hard,
Don’t think so. Varys said he was going to come back to Meereen with more ships.
Ginevra,
THIS, and THIS… basically everything you’ve said in this thread…
Sophie has lost the plot. Her comments get more bizarre by the day.
The game is hardly over. I’d say that’s what LF’s smile was saying and Sansa’s look was showing her realization and fear of this fact. I don’t think she is relishing doing anything that will be needed to “win” this game. I don’t think it will come down to doing anything as drastic as delaying the KotV but I expect a few “obstacles” to thrown in Jon’s way at the start of season 7. I suspect all those games will come to an end when the White Walkers are at the gates. Well, I hope it ends then.
If Varys ever meets up with Jon or Sansa he could be telling them what LF did in Kings Landing. He was there when LF betrayed Ned.
Varys was also at the council where Ned declined to have Dani killed. Ned even tried to stop her assassination attempt when King Robert died.
I really hope Dani and Co meet up with the Starks! That would be the end for LF.
Ser Pounce FTW,
Exactly. This is my take. Don’t forget Sansa is the victim of repeated abuse. Her choices may not make sense to some who have not gone through similar types of abuse. She will never let anyone hurt her again. And as much as she may say she trusts Jon, there’s a part of her that can never trust someone else, especially a man. It has nothing really to do with childhood. It has to do with Joffrey and Ramsay.
Yes, the writers may not have conveyed this is a direct manner. And for all I know it is all hype for next year. But I thought as soon as the KITN stuff started, what is Sansa thinking … when she smiled and didn’t smile … how careful she was with her emotions and then that one enigmatic look with LF which was purposefully obtuse to me.
From the beginning, Jon wants to join the KW -how did that turn out? Jon wants to go North -how did that turn out? Jon wants to persuade the Wildlings -how did that turn out? Jon wants to unite the Wildlings with the people of the North -how did that turn out? Jon wants to save Rickon and free the North from Ramsey -how did that turn out?
Very good shout, can see that happening too!
Cersei’s Brain,
Yet in quite a few respects this “typical TV plot” would really be much more in keeping with the intrigue and themes of the series than all of this fairy-tale nonsense so many people are now wishing for, with no real risks for their favorite characters. After so much unpredictability early on, the last thing I want to see is the story turning into “Dany marries Jon! All the ‘good guys’ team up and ROFLstomp the eeevil WWs! The End!” It’s pretty safe to say this is not that kind of story and was never going to be. GRRM and others have made this pretty clear in all manner of interviews over the years, and I know I for one would be extremely disappointed if that’s where all of this ends up going.
It really could use a major curve ball right about now to undermine most people’s assumptions about the endgame, and you have to admit that a Jon-Sansa conflict would certainly do the trick–even if it’s also true that the setup hasn’t been handled particularly well.
She’s still trying to turn this around on Jon and say HE needs to be more open and honest when it was HER who withheld potential battle information from him?
UNBELIEVABLE
LadyStark,
So could Sandor Clegane I think. Or Bran possibly for that matter if that was in his download.
Turner’s view does make sense. After I have rewatched the scene several times focusing on her face.
She has a genuine smile untill Lady Mormont says: “And we know no king but the king in the North who’s name is Stark”.
Then she looks down and when Mormont continues: “And I don’t care if he is a bastard”. At which point her smile does not look genuine anymore.
The rest of the scene her smile is forced. Untill she looks at Littlefinger and it disappears.
But then, it’s not a possibillity I would ever have considered without reading through this thread and rewatching multiple times.
It does seem as though Martin has enough in his books for this to play out in the same way. Jon was planning to free Winterfell from the Boltons based on what he knows and the meager forces he has while Robb’s will naming him KitN is making it’s way North. Sansa was promised Winterfell by LF as a wedding gift will probably arrive with the KotV in the nick of time to save the day. The show has hardly created this scenario out of thin air.
Then why even bother having Sansa telling Jon that he’s as much a Stark as she is as far as she’s concerned? There is no malicious reason for her saying that.
I saw that scene as Sansa trying to further read into Littlefinger’s plan. If Sansa still trusts Littlefinger even a tiny bit (especially after saying “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger”), then she is the dumbest, stupidest character by far in the show.
I agree we don’t know for certain, and it’s open for interpretation. Heck at this stage, I’d say only the writers know. I wonder if those inside the episode interviews with the actors are done while shooting. Id that’s the case, the actors haven’t even seen the finished product.
Still, I’d say that if the writers are going towards Sansa Vs Jon next season, they have done a horrendous job of setting it up.
Aside from the ickiness (I’d argue Tyrion, Ramsay and LF are ickier), why shouldn’t Jon and Sansa get married? I can see why there’d be opposition in terms of “story” but a marriage would clean up a lot of this tension and force out LF. Sophie mentioned Dany as a possible marriage for Jon. Too clean for me. Jon and Sansa have already been through a lot with each other. A Dany marriage would feel strictly political. Cousins in Westeros ain’t that crazy. There’s gotta be a happy wedding too at some point, right? RIGHT??? Who deserves a happy wedding more than Jon and Sansa?
Honestly no one touch my Jon. Ever. Thanks
I don’t get this Sansa Jon talk from Sophie – not the vibe I got when I watched and it’s kind of annoying reading about it.
I’ve said this before though I don’t think she would betray Jon in the end. It may seem like it at first
So true. Hell, when Sansa tells Jon he should listen to her since she knows Ramsay best, he says she is right and asks for her advice! If the writers are truly going towards a direction of having Sansa going against Jon, Sansa will be even lower than Cersei to me. Sansa has done nothing except write to Littlefinger asking for his help after he offered it.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think she’s just trying to troll. /shrug I could be wrong but I get the impression Sophie likes to mess with the viewers to throw them off. 🙂
What’s wrong with Tyrion?
“HBO” didn’t reveal anything. The random intern who is running MGoT at the moment put that on the infographic. The actors in the Tower of Joy scene don’t even know what Lyanna was saying (see our Isaac/R. Aramayo interview post) , so why would they?
That said, it’s pretty obvious from six seasons of clues that R+L=J, combined with the ToJ scenes this season that confirmed it. So I think that’s what the MGoT person did, they simply assumed.
Sansa: *stands in silence during war council, not even trying to offer her opinions*
later
Sansa: “You didn’t ask me what we should do!”
Jon: “Okay, what should we do?”
Sansa: “idk I’m not a soldier”
What about Sansa makes her think she’d be a good ruler?
Darkrobin,
True! I just have a feeling that day in the Throne Room holding a dagger to Ned’s throat is going to come back to haunt him!
I surely hope so.
I’m worried about Jon. Again.
LF is a conniving jerk.
Darkrobin:
Ser Pounce FTW,
It has nothing really to do with childhood.
I’d say childhood does have something to do with it since Sansa’s childhood relationship with Jon was modeled on her mother’s.
I agree she meant it when she told Jon he was as much a Stark as she was but it seems as though LF helped her see that differently.
But just because she will team up with him doesn’t mean she’ll trust him. Just as she didn’t really trust Jon but did work with him as much as she felt was safe to in order to reach her goal of getting her home back.
I agree, since many really missed the cues in the last scene.
Daenerys comes to Westeros with an Armada to conquer , Cersei burning everything , makes herself Queen and we are sitting to analyze the Jon-Sansa-LF relationship !!!! Great PR from the north team !!!!
After declaring publicly for House Stark, I can see LF playing at the game now by outwardly serving Jon like Varys is for Daeny – albeit with more selfish reasons.
I think this is how LF will fit in coming season, besides his Sansa issue:
During the battle for Westeros, (1) LF vs Varys rivalry will reach a head – simultaneously with (2) Tyrion vs Jaime (remember Jaime’s chat with Bronn about Tyrion), and of course (3) Daeny vs Cersei (& then Jon).
I think of them only Jon, Daeny & Tyrion/Jaime will come out of S7 alive
On a broader picture there ll be (1) Dorne/Tyrells vs Lannister revenge ; (2) Daeny’s Conquered South vs Jon’s North and (3) Starks vs WW to lead up to S8’s Life vs Death! (Wall falling in S7 finale would be ideal)
I d imagine those
Jack Bauer 24,
Nothing is wrong with, Tyrion. I just think marriage to a Lannister (even the “nice” one) is less appealing than one to Jon.
Okay, maybe he drinks too much and got overly-attached to Shae but I can forgive those. Tyrion’s great. My fav of the big 3.
Sue the Fury,
That’s great. Someone buy that intern a beer!
Azor Asshai,
But a war between Jon and Sansa at this point seems silly. They know about the White Walkers threat. Sansa should wait the outcome of that war to worry. They chose Jon because he is the needed warrior and he will be in a very dangerous position. What could Littlefinger do about the White Walkers???? Besides, I hope Bran appears in Winterfell very soon. I want to watch Littlefinger’s face when a legitimate male heir appears to ruin his plans for good.
I hope Sansa kills Littlefinger, that would be more interesting IMO, maybe with the help of Arya.
Truly bizarre.
I have to say I’ve come to quite dislike Turner. I like Sansa the character and think the casting is perfect, but whenever I see her interviews I just leave feeling that she doesn’t understand her own character and is providing none of the ideas and insights those around her are.
Is it just me?
Littlefinger makes her think that. And it’s easy to see why she believes she should get it. She is the only true born Stark in the room at the moment.
Hal.E.Lujah,
She’s not the only one talking about this story line.
I don’t know why fans insist it has to be one thing or the other with Sansa – and I think it’s people just somehow don’t believe a Stark could betray another Stark. What on earth would be the point of GRRM if none of the horrible things that happen DON’T change someone. Why is everyone acting like the Starks are immune to being power hungry, or that 2 people who are nothing alike and were never close could end up lining up against each other?
I think Sansa does love her brother IN THE ABSTRACT and thinks he’s a good person.
But there is ZERO DOUBT in my mind that in that scene with LF, she was somewhat taken in by his vision. You can see it, it’s almost like she’s transfixed, and it’s only when he tries to kiss her that she kind of takes a deep breath and shakes herself out of it and stops him.
She doesn’t look upset or repulsed. And she stops and hears him when he talks about Jon’s claim as a bastard vs. hers.
So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say that she IS conflicted, because she does crave some authority and recognition, and the fact that she’s so quickly ignored makes flare up the little resentment she has. And there’s one person who is there entirely FOR HER and she actually likes it, even if she doesn’t want to admit it.
She’s prone to LF’s manipulations AND he’s effective at it. Why is it so hard to believe that while she doesn’t hate Jon outright that it’s totally unreasonable that she would completely agree with LF that she’s the best person to rule?
I’m sure they’re going to show her disagreeing with Jon’s actions and genuinely believing she’d be a better ruler. I don’t think she’s going to play LF or she’s some master manipulator whose stringing him along. SHE AGREES WITH HIM. She will only turn on him if and when the Hound makes it open what he did to Ned, not until then.
If they were trying to convey actual struggle between Sansa and Jon, they could have had a transitional scene that would also explain what Manderly, Cerwyn, Glover and the other guys who weren’t in the fight were doing there and what the expectation of that meeting was. Why did they come?
The last time we saw Jon and Sansa talk he was deferring to her. Not doing what my husband wanted him to do (which was pointing to the mountain of dead bodies outside and wondering how many could have been saved if they’d had Sansa’s information during the battle planning phase-making her face the actual consequences of her choice) but telling her the men of the Vale came for her and she saved their lives–the way he said it, he just left out my lady. Think about his mindset. Of course the Vale wouldn’t come for him and of course she deserves the Lord’s bedchamber. He’s a bastard and she’s a Stark. That was drummed into his head by Cat all his life.
Jon deferred to her after the battle too. He had every right to finish Ramsay off for killing Rickon and Wun Wun–but Sansa’s confusing expression made him leave the punishment to her. Which is great-because she deserved some payback, but still.
To be honest, Sansa’s reactions have genuinely confused me a little this season. Maybe the motivation of the character isn’t clear enough in the script? I don’t know. I don’t mean to hate and I’m not attacking-for the hardcore Sansa fans. From Brienne saving her to reunion with Jon she was surprising me with her growth and new understanding. It worked and I loved every minute of it. It was great stuff. Get to planning and I just wasn’t sure where she was coming from-and it was mostly emotion-based, not game based.
These in particular
1. Sansa yelling at Jon that they need more men but not telling him she has more men because she sent a raven to LF (also complaining about being left out when she was actually in the room every time an important conversation was happening)
2. Sansa saying someone would be a fool to trust LF, but trusting LF enough to send Brienne to Riverrun and to send him a raven for more men and to listen to him when he put doubt in her mind about her brother.
3. Sansa’s face when she saw Jon running with Tormund and Wun Wun toward Ramsay. Was she angry he was alive? Full of consternation he might get inside Winterfell before she did and claim her home? What? I think I REALLY missed what she’s feeling here because to me–she didn’t look particularly relieved to see her brother wasn’t among the mountain of the dead.
4. Sansa’s face when she was watching her brother bash her rapist’s face in. Was she angry Jon was hitting her prisoner? Disgusted that Jon could be so violent? Worried about her husband? 🙂 Obviously not that-but it was a pretty hostile expression.
5. Sansa’s face when she meets LF’s eyes after KitN. Is she worried for Jon or realizing LF was right? I could tell exactly what LF was feeling-he has many layers of smirk and that smirk has never been so ticked off-but I have no idea what was going on in Sansa’s head. So Sophie can say whatever she wants in the interviews and I’ll have to take her at her word-because I just don’t know. They didn’t give her the dialogue that would explain her expressions.
I think, of course there was a missed opportunity for Jon to look at Sansa when KitN started and for her to nod and/or join in and actively choose him. Or for him to say-wait, I’m a bastard and Sansa is the only true Stark in this room-plus she brought the Vale. If they said-we don’t care-you led the charge and were in the thick of it etc–then that’s on them. But drama. Also I think he was in shock at being put in charge again-especially since the last time didn’t turn out so well with the whole stabbing and everything. And tbh, all that’s on his mind is the NK and zombie army. He’s not like, “Awesome, I’m in charge of Winterfell now. Finally.” His little release of air-almost laugh when he stands is like “Am I being pranked again? If someone says Benjen is outside and wants to crown me-I’m leaving.”
But no one can deny-even the Queen supporters-that he needs to be in charge, not just because the entire North needs to become a kind of NW now to protect the realm, but because out of all the children he is the most like Ned. He’s got a Northern sense of honor, duty and honesty. Doesn’t work well in KL but the North respects the hell out of that and follows it.
In fact-out of everyone currently in charge in the world Jon is the most worthy to be a king-and I’m not talking about his bloodline. He’s a true reluctant hero. He’s been the ultimate protector since the story began. He helped train Bran, gave Arya her sword and convinced Ned to give his children the direwolves even when he thought he couldn’t have one-which actually showed a lot of his character. He was a leader to a small group of NW that protected Sam from bullies. He escaped his cell where he was being punished so he could protect the LC from a wight. And we all know his list of accomplishments, leading up to him trying to save more of the living from the dead and being killed for it-then agreeing to fight and probably die for Sansa and Rickon when he just wanted a break from fighting after he came back to life.
They have to come together to protect the realm. It’s the final act of a ginormous story and we really don’t have to play court politics right up to the end. The whole point is that thrones and crowns means nothing if no one is alive to rule or be ruled. I’m not sure Sansa truly understands what’s at stake. She doesn’t want control over her life taken out of her hands, yes, but Jon is trying to protect her and everyone else in the realm from losing what life they have.
Someone said earlier they were hoping for Arya and Bran to arrive soon and I second that. Someone needs to protect Jon from all this game playing shit and keep Sansa from going dark side.
Darkrobin,
I am more and more starting to think this way, and only in a matter of hours after reading yours and Ser Pounce comments. One thing that just occurred to me is that she did not even hesitate when faced with the dilemma of saving her real brother Rickon, to her he was as good as dead, if not expendable. So why would she care about safety of a step-brother? I do see how all her priorities now are about protecting herself. As a victim of repeated abuse she is not what she used to be, and even back then she was a selfish kid. So my guess was after going through all of it she might start to appreciate family more, but I think it is the opposite and everything we saw this season since she met Jon was just part of an elaborate game. It would certainly be consistent with what Sophie, Kit, Liam and D&D are saying.
Aryamad,
More than the actors trolling, I think it’s the writers and directors. They tell the actors to show different kind of emotions in different shots for the same scene and afterwards they take the face expression they want. For instance, I remember the “I chose violence” shot from the first trailer where Cersei looked fierce but in the episode they took another shot of Cersei where she looked a little scare or not so sure. As well, the actor that plays Tommen also said they took different shots with different emotions while he watched the fire … and they chose that one of surprise … So, the ambiguity on Sansa’s feelings is on purpose.
BlueRoseofWinterfell,
I’d love to talk about Dany and Cersei, but there are no posts about this right now. 🙁 Haven’t Emilia or Lena given any interviews? Sophie’s interviews get posted a lot.
The show is becoming more and more predictable so I actually hope the Hound won’t rat out LF like many are saying, and that LF actually manages to have the iron throne for a while.
THIS! 🙂
Nadia,
I wrote this big long meandering thing and you explained all my confusion. I don’t want it to be true because I don’t see Starks and the North that way. KL and WF are different worlds that should never collide….but you make a lot of sense.
HA! Love it!
Flayed Potatoes,
They have both agreed that Cersei will not be long on that throne haha
Sansa clearly stated that she considers Jon a Stark, and she expected him to take the Lord’s Chamber ahead of her.
I know Littlefinger had words with her between that scene and the King in the North scene, but I don’t think it was anywhere near enough to convince her to turn on Jon.
I think she looked at Littlefinger in fear of what he might do to make his ambitions come true.
Jon very clearly stands in his way now. And the way Jon stands between Littlefinger and Sansa is quite clearly reminiscent of the way Ned stood in his way when it came to Catelyn.
I think they’ll definitely try and build up the possibility of Sansa letting Littlefinger’s manipulation get the better of her. But ultimately I expect her to side with Jon.
On another note, I noticed that the way Jon kissed Sansa on the forehead in the finale was not only reminiscent of how he kissed Bran goodbye back in Season 1, but also it mimicked the way Littlefinger kissed her forehead while trying to convince her to marry Ramsay Bolton.
I wonder whether this was included to contrast Jon’s genuine affection for his siblings with Littlefinger’s more manipulative behaviour.
Goodness I love Sophie Turner. She always gives great interviews. Aidan Gillen’s was very fun to read as well. He definitely seems like he has great insight into the story as a whole.
I read interviews of Lena and Emilia in EW !!
Also this going to be a deeply annoying “offseason” if we have to keep reading Sophie Turner talk about Jon and Sansa.
but it’s very clear that the Wall isn’t falling soon for a lot of different reasons, and this will be the Northern plot and conflict.
Aidan literally just pointed out how LF could dance around the Ned issue, and by now we know that if anyone could twist meaning effectively, it would be him. I don’t think Sandor’s role is going to be to out LF, and much as I love him, I don’t think it would work.
Any Sansa vs Jon plot will be moot when the Night’s King and Co. show up, and only one of them knows how to wield a Valyrian sword.
Tycho Nestoris,
I always wanted Jon and Sansa to end together while reading the books because I knew they were cousins. I always picture Jon staying at Winterfell and making a family with Sansa like the original Stark family. But, in the show, I don’t see the chemistry between Kit and Sophie yet. I believe it will be easier for Kit and Emilia to make a more believable love story. Maybe that’s part of the bitter sweet end. Danny and Jon could fall in love, but he decides to marry Sansa to help her lead the North.
RG,
Obviously haha. But I’m curious to see what she’ll do, especially when she finds out the Starks have retaken the North and are supported by the Vale. And I want her to find out about the Dany-Olenna-Ellaria alliance, and Tyrion being on Team Dany. And I want to see how she’ll govern….it should be insane.
BlueRoseofWinterfell,
Really? Do you have links? I don’t think they were posted here. 🙁
“Trustworthy” was definitely a strange choice of words from Sophie Turner. In the full interview, she does say that Sansa is “forever wary” of Littlefinger which makes much more sense.
I would therefore interpret her “trustworthy” as “you can always trust Littlefinger to do what suits his interests; and if your interests align with his, then you have one hell of an ally on your side”.
I highly doubt the writers will have Sansa “betray” Jon. They cannot be unaware of Jon’s popularity and such a narrative decision would basically turn Sansa into a villain for many viewers, which I do not think is the writers’ intention.
But I definitely sense conflict, and it feels pretty organic to me.
The whole issue of “trust” between them has not been resolved at all as Ser Pounce FTW (great name ! ^^) and others (ash, Magg) said.
Sansa messed up by not telling Jon about the Vale; she apologised (though we did not get a clear explanation why she did it, it is a beginning)
Jon messed up too by not fully grabbing the truth of his sister’s warning; he did not apologise.
So, the asymetry Sophie Turner mentioned is actually there : Jon wants them to trust each other (communicate, talk, operate as a team); he recognises she did not trust him with the info about the Vale but does not acknowledge he too failed to trust her and her judgment about Ramsay. Not out of hypocrisy certainly but out of… Forgetfulness maybe ? Perhaps he is simply so preoccupied with other things he did not think about it. I do not know, to be honest. But it is there and it is bittersweet.
There is no villain here. They are both right and they both have their reasons for doing what they do.
Sansa is right to want to be acknowledged for what she achieved. She did give Jon valuable advice and, by bringing in the Knights of the Vale, did more for the success of the Battle than most of the Northern lords put together. As a matter of fact, she did the exact same thing this monument of badassery that is Lyanna Mormont did : as awesome as she is, the Bear Cub did not fight in the battle; she told her lieges to show up, in the same way Sansa told the Vale to show up.
Furthermore, for the past five years, she has suffered in the name of the North and the Starks : she was imprisoned, held hostage, beaten, humiliated and many other aweful things because she is a Stark, because she is “the key to the North”. And she did not give up, did not commit suicide though she must have been tempted. Those are her battle scars and they are no less deserving than others.
Jon is right to be confused and preoccupied by things other than his sister’s need for recognition and safety. His eyes are firmly on what is going on beyond the Wall and, out of nowhere, here he is : victor of the Battle of Winterfell, proclaimed KITN by people who two weeks ago, for the overwhelming majority of them, did not care for him, his family or his life. Nobody asks him whether he is OK with it; nobody cares if he thinks it is a good idea to declare independence right now…
He is put upon by the same people who pulled the same trick with Robb a couple of years ago, with the infamous results we (and he and Sansa !) know. And, on top of everything, he has to save the living in a war against the dead !
No villain, just two very damaged people who sincerely love and appreciate each other (Sansa called him a Stark !) but seriously need to talk. Really talk.
Flayed Potatoes,
Oh no kidding. I mean she wants Sansa obviously-BUT Olenna and Ellaria and Tyrion all banding together to take her out? She will flip her already crazy lid. Definitely insane.
Can’t wait.
I don’t really mind if next season Sansa will make Jon’s life a bit more difficult, it certainly is in character for her – believing LF’s bullshit once again, and wanting to be a fairytale queen just because that’s what LF says. I don’t fear for Jon in this case, his plot armor is quite strong. LF or Sansa won’t be his undoing. And I really don’t think Sansa will take it as far as outright betraying Jon.
What I fear most is that they may continue to dumb down Jon – to make Sansa seem smarter. Jon is supposed to be a smart man, who can deal with politics as well (at least in the books), he manages to make alliances, arranges a loan from the Iron Bank – and such stuff. And we never actually see it on the show.
I want to see Jon actually doing some ruling, where he can show that he understands the role of a ruler outside of making military tactics. If they leave it to Sansa, who should now nothing at all about such stuff, and she actually manages to do it better that Jon, I will be pissed.
Sansa would make a perfect consort to a Lord or a King in times of peace. I can’t see her as someone who rules in her own right. Hell, I can see even Arya doing that, but not Sansa. She did nothing so far to gain my trust in her.
And Arya should really hurry home. Leave Cercei to Jaime, join the brotherhood and the Hound, and go home. Please. The way they handle time, she should be back in the first ep. in S7.
I’m not sure about Bran and his mark though. I guess he will cross the Wall and goes home – but if it’s really the reason why the Others can cross the Wall, it will be incredibly stupid. But him being back home to support Jon would be really nice. Sansa can’t say a word then: Bran’s claim is much bigger than hers.
I kinda hope that Jon learns R+L from Bran before he meets Arya – so by the time they reconnect, they will be aware they are only cousins. If there is anybody who can comfort him in this situation, it’s Arya. And it may lead to more… (yes, I’ve always thought the main point of R+L in-story is to make Jon/Arya legal. I’m probably wrong, but a girl can hope…)
Goodness! I have gone back and forth on this so much. It really feels like LF needs to get his comeuppance but so many men like Littlefinger never get what they deserve and I wonder if Grrm will decide to follow this rather than the more predictable “bad guy goes down at the end” route. It does feel like a fitting culmination for Sansa’s arc but, who knows.
Aszusz,
I think the Arya Jon thing creeps me out way more than anything because they really do show Jon loving her like a little sister. I’m not sure he ever really felt sibling-like with Sansa, but Arya? Man.
And with what Arya’s turned into, I wonder.
ACME,
^THIS^
Standing ovation!!
Except it’s a little different because Sandor was practically standing next to LF/Ned when it happened, and he only needs to really tell one person and have her believe him for this to basically mean the end of LF, and that person is Sansa. Whatever her conflict is, I think Sansa does know in her heart of hearts that Littlefinger is untrustworthy (and that she considers Sandor perhaps moreso). If she gets final confirmation of just how untrustworthy from this source, then I think she will kill him.
Oh come on i think the game is simple !!!! If we go back in season 1 and see how LF played with Ned until the moment he betrayed him !!!! He made Ned to believe that he was his ally they even made plans together and the right moment he put his dagger in his throat , Sansa will play the same game, she will make him to believe that they want the same things and when she takes from him what she wants she will put the same dagger in LF throat !! Jon can’t play this game nor Sir Davos they are too morals for these kind of games !!!!
Great discussion and yes-her scars are deep and just as worthy of acknowledgment.
And they definitely need to talk. This could all be resolved with a few long fireside chats about something other than Old Nan’s soup.
My issue with her advice before the battle is the lack of talking. She just said “Ramsay doesn’t fall into traps, he lays them” and “Don’t do what he wants you to do” and “It’s not enough (men)” Very vague-no specifics for Jon to grab on to.
What she should have said was (for example)–“When I say you don’t know him like I do-let me give you an example. You should have seen what he did to Theon. You remember Theon right? He tortured him until he had no idea who he was except for a servant named Reek who slept in a kennel. He found the one person who was nice to me in WF and took me for a “romantic walk” to her flayed body. I was locked in a bedroom and raped every night and the first night he made Theon watch…He finds the thing that will hurt you the most and he uses it against you, tricks you into having hope so he can rip it away. If Rickon isn’t dead yet he’ll use him to draw you out. Plan for that in your strategy session.”
Communication is the key 🙂
If this were Sophie, Sophie, and Sophie saying all these things, I would likely agree. However, we’ve had quotes from Sophie, Benioff, Kit, Liam, and now Aiden – every key player in these scenes – all saying essentially the same thing. This is a real thing. Sophie isn’t just making this shit up.
I will say that we won’t know the outcome of this conflict until next season, but to deny the conflict is to deny that all those creating what we saw had any idea what they were doing, including the writer and producer.
Littlefinger has screwed so many people over… it’s about time Littlefinger get’s what he deserves…. Ramsey’s Hound feast
Littlefinger starts a war by having Lysa Tully kill her husband Jon Arryn…. Who raised Ned Stark and King Robert
Littlefinger murders Lysa Tully
Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark leading to his execution
Littlefinger betrayed Loras and Margaery Tyrell for Cersei
Littlefinger assassinated King Joffery
Littlefinger betrayed Cersei which led to her insanity
Littlefinger betrayed Sansa Stark to be Warden of the North
I hope Cersei or Jon Snow or Sansa say enough is enough and shows Littlefinger who the boss is now
Nadia,
Arya and Jon genuinly loved each other as children (like brother/sister). But they haven’t met ever since, and they are both changed. A lot. Now they are both grown ups. So there is room for practically anything.
And Jon and Sansa definitely felt sibling-like: there are siblings who are not particularly close to each other, it’s rather common. They still liked each other.
However, the Arya/Jon relationship always puzzled me, because it’s so weird. Finishing each other’s sentences? They are soul mates, if anything. I wouldn’t call their relationship a regular brother/sister one.
Flayed Potatoes,
Cersei would have to hire a Faceless Man to reach Sansa at Winterfell, specially now that Winter is here. She needs to focus in the South threat first.
Aabe mentioned this earlier (lost track of the post), but you definitely see the actors’ (in)experience in these interviews. I don’t recall much from any of Isaac’s interviews, but I’ve definitely noticed Sophie’s and Maisie’s greenness when it comes to this sort of thing. They’re good onscreen but they still have a lot to learn about interacting with the press. It’s telling that Sophie was the one cast member who genuinely believed that Kit wasn’t coming back after Season 5, to the point of writing him a goodbye letter.
Lest anyone think otherwise, I do not say any of this as someone who disliked Sophie or her performance. Quite the contrary. I am only saying she needs to work on her interview (interviewee?) skills. Then again, she could be trolling us.
I’m not sure why Jon should have apologized: Sansa’s “advice” lacked any real advice, it was as general as it could get. And I just don’t think that even if that would have cause a lost battle, Jon would apologize for trying to save Rickon’s life.
after sophie’s, “jon is sexist remarks” i take everything that actress says about the show with a grain of salt. i could quote like 8 lines where jon is asking her for input or telling her she made the right play or giving her character credit. does she even read his lines or listen to what kit’s saying when they are doing a scene?
I think of all the storylines, this is the one I’m least interested in next season. The whole Jon and Sansa feud just never worked out for me, it seemed totally manufactured, and it seems like it’s just going to be more of the same next season.
Cersei going mad in King’s Landing could be alright, but there aren’t many characters left in King’s Landing for her to play off of, with the exception of Jaime, Qyburn, and Zombie Mountain. I’m guessing next season the common people will rebel in KL and she’ll eventually burn the city (and kill Jaime before doing so).
Dany is heading for Westeros and that’s all well and good, but she has a massive army and 3 dragons, where is the challenge? I think Euron will pose a threat to her early on next season, it may well even be a catastrophic threat. I anticipate his fleet will meet Dany in the middle of the narrow sea next season. I welcome it to be honest, watching her march all over Westeros won’t be terribly interesting.
I don’t know what will happen with Chucky I mean Arya, all I know is I couldn’t be more disappointed with the end of her arc last season. Probably will have a collision with the Brotherhood without Banners, and Mel might be with them at that point.
Sam at the Citadel could be intriguing. I’m guessing he’ll meet up with Jorah as he tries to find the cure to Greyscale.
… so Jaqen goes there, meets Arya again, and she persuades him to kill LF instead. It doesn’t matter for the Many Faced God after all: he gets his face.
ManderlyPieCompany,
Why does everyone keep saying SOPHIE is trolling and doesn’t get it?
Literally every actor and writer has said the same thing.
Liam said it
Kit said it
Benioff said it
Rather than say “Sophie is a troll,” how about perhaps everyone try to wrap their heads around the fact that this is ACTUALLY A PLOT FOR NEXT SEASON
And before we bash D&D why is everyone acting like this is out of the realm of possibility in the books to get Sansa – when she gets to LF – vs Jon, with LF advancing her claim?
I do see your point. It is true that more specific advice would probably have penetrated a tad better.
Sansa did tell him that Ramsay liked to “hurt” people (not kill or maim, “hurt”) and that Rickon was as good as dead; these two things put together do, in my opinion, draw a pretty clear picture but they are not easy to accept. I believe even Sansa needed time to come the conclusion that her baby brother was beyond saving. So, for someone like Jon, who does want to save everybody, it is downright unfathomable.
The main problem in that situation, as I understand it, was that Jon and Sansa were not talking about the same thing.
Jon thinks in terms of army vs. army, which makes all the sense in the world because he is a general. A military leader.
Sansa thinks in terms of Jon vs. Ramsay, which makes all the sense in the world because she knows Bolton and understands that he is going to make it as personal as he can.
Jon wants tactical, practical advice on how to draw his battle plan. Things Sansa, who freely admits she knows nothing about such things, cannot provide. All she can give is information on the mindset Jon should adopt once on the battlefield.
To Jon, it sounds esoteric or banal, of course. But only because he and his sister are not on the same wavelength at that moment in time.
I am sure Old Nan’s soup is deserving of several long conversations. As for her pies, they could probably justify a filibuster ! ^^
They will get there. Eventually.
After all, the Starks are always right. Eventually 😉
Aszusz,
Yeah, I fear they will dumb down Jon to make her look like a “player”. I’d like for the show to adapt some of the things he did in ADWD as LC, but I’m not holding my breath.
maria,
This suggestion that she intentionally withheld the info on the Vale in hopes that both Jon and Rickon died so she can gain power means Sansa is evil. Worse than Littlefinger even, on par with Cersei. So I don’t agree with Aiden that maybe Sansa withheld the info in hopes of a power play. To believe that means you have to believe she hoped Rickon and Jon would die and she’d be seen as the conquering hero which would make Sansa power hungry maniac. I see zero evidence for any of that.
Then again, I never saw any evidence for this supposed tension these people keep talking up either.
To which Jon muses… where have I heard that before?
I cannot say I agree, unfortunately.
Jon had a battle plan which relied entirely on waiting Ramsay out.
Sansa told him that Ramsay enjoyed hurting people and would never, ever, allow Rickon to live, no matter what happened, thereby informing him that his battle plan would be much harder to abide by than he imagined. It may not have been the most specific of advice but it was extremely sound.
I am not in any way denying that Jon’s decision to try to save Rickon made all the sense in the world from an emotional standpoint. I am not so devoid of humanity.
However, from a strategical standpoint, it was a complete disaster.
To emphasise that, the writers even had Tormund tell Jon “don’t” when the latter got on his horse to pick up his baby brother. The only way they could have been more blatant would have been with an Admiral Ackbar meme (“It’s a trap !!!”)
Jon did not truly listen to his sister; he only heard “don’t do what Ramsay want you to do” and dismissed it as banal. The rest of her advice, he did not pay attention to (probably because he did not want to hear he could not save his brother… Who wants to hear they cannot save the people they love ?) even though it would have helped.
So I do believe an apology would have made sense. I am not thinking of Jon getting on his hands and knees, begging for Sansa’s forgiveness but a simple acknowldgement of the fact that what she told him was not pointless.
It is not much, really. A passing comment would have sufficed. The fact that the writers did not include it seems foreshadow-y to me.
I actually do believe Turner and Gillen. I’ve never liked Sansa as a person, my least favorite Stark. Sure, she’s been through hell and back, anyone with a soul should feel sympathy for her, but she’s also always been a brat with a ridiculous sense of entitlement. Yes, she did save Jon, and she has some political skill. But that doesn’t mean Sansa should get ALL the credit and rule the North. I don’t know why she’s acting like she is getting snubbed, Jon acknowledged she saved him and I think he would gladly make her Hand of the King or some other council position of power.
Sansa has spent too much time around dark characters and is turning into a dark character herself. I fully expect her to conspire with LF and betray Jon because of her sense of entitlement and newfound power thirst. Part of the reason I expect that is just because this is Game of Thrones after all, they love creating complicated grey-area characters and they need a new tense, juicy storyline of betrayal to keep the show going (it’s what makes the show so good, I just don’t like this particular instance of it).
As for LF, I really do love the character of Baelish. He’s brilliantly crafted character, I love watching the way he slithers up the ladder and masterfully manipulates people to gain power. But again, Sansa is not the person I want to see him manipulate.
It’s so nice to hear Sophie discuss Sansa in the third person rather than Emilia who refers to Dany in the first
There two possibilities here:
They are all misdirecting and they love to do that.Obviously there will be some tension next season but Sansa will fuck LF up in the end.
Or they fucked up with setting all of this up considering that’s not what I got from all these episodes at all especially if they want us to think Sansa is the wronged party here.If she goes and backstabs Jon that would make her the most hated character ever considering all her flimsy reasons when Jon will do anything for her and their family and has done nothing wrong
In any case #JonSnowdidnothingwrong2k16 lol
There’s been a lot of discussion of how Jon really made a huge error in riding out for Rickon but the truth of the matter is in both these comments. Jon’s whole purpose in riding to Winterfell was to save Rickon and no, he wasn’t going to not try to do that. This mirrors the books where Jon plans to ride south to save Arya, not Winterfell. It’s Sansa who’s aiming for Winterfell. So, while I don’t think she’s evil, she was able to make the decision to write off Rickon in order to gain the larger prize of Winterfell. Jon never would be able to to do that because that price would be too great for him to pay. It highlights the difference in the characters and their arcs. Sansa needed to harden her heart to survive while Jon finally chose to listen to his heart and not follow his duty (after being tested with this dilemma twice before with Ned/Robb and Quorin).
Personally, I don’t think Sansa wants to play the game at all but knows now that she has to. She has seen first hand what “power” has cost her family and the kingdom as a whole. Her “mentors” have been those who built their games on lies and deceit. I totally agree she needs someone in an advisory role who will tell her straight and who knows how these liars and manipulators operate. Someone who doesn’t have a stake in the game, other than to protect those worthy of it. Someone who isn’t interested in claim or their own honor code. Brienne may understand the moving pieces on the game board, but she has never been a part of the political fold. Sansa needs to know that her words and deeds won’t come back to hurt or haunt her. That her interests are the interest of those who have her ear and vice versa.
For me, that person is Sandor.
Well, if you’re going to discuss its potential relation to the books, the context is very different. Book!Sansa wanted to get away from Littlefinger, but is stuck under his control for lack of any alternative and because he’s a great psychological manipulator. Show!Sansa has been effectively free to do whatever she wants since 408, but pretty consistently plays into Baelish’s hands anyway, even though she doesn’t have to.
ACME,
He did nothing wrong and shouldn’t apologize for trying to save their brother.I would love for Sansa to have been in his place and see what would she do in that situation if she would just stay put and let her little brother get murdered because he is a lost cause anyway.And I would love to see how the audience would have reacted to it considring it went so well with Stannis
Yeah, I can’t help but think a lot of people are denying it outright simply it because it doesn’t mesh with this whole “fan-approved” vision of the endgame, with all the “bad guys” (read: LF) getting their just desserts so the “good guys” can all team up to defeat the WWs (which sounds way too conventional for a story that was meant to provide an alternative take on the fantasy genre), and no more significant political intrigue or real risk being posed to all of their favorite characters. It’s like people have completely forgotten what kind of story this has been–the politics, drama, and inter-family conflicts aren’t going to just go away–and now expect to get some kind of fairy tale ending where the fans get everything they want. It boggles my mind, especially when GRRM and D&D have been on the record that this is NOT going to happen and things are going to end on a bittersweet note.
What people think and want to happen for the Starks while going ahead seems way too “sweet” for this story, so this (potential) Jon-Sansa conflict is precisely the kind of thing that threatens that idea. It’ll definitely be interesting to see how all of this actually unfolds.
I wish the show runner’s would stop dumbing down Jon Snow in the show. He’s really not that stupid you know? -_-
Hey, do you remember last year when you posted some filming pictures in Spain I believe, where we could clearly spot Varys and
What happened with that? Why we didn’t get to see her in Season 6?
Murderotica926,
I do not think anyone is arguing in favour of Sansa getting “all” the credit. It would be absurd, in my opinion. It is not an “either/or” game. The Battle was won thanks both to Jon and Sansa (and the Freefolk and the Vale); both should therefore get public acknowledgement for that fact. It is a rather simple matter really.
As things stand, it is not yet the case. Jon got all the official rewards (though I would argue it remains to be seen whether it is truly a blessing….) and Sansa got none.
If things change (if the Northern Lords proclaim Sansa something or other, if Jon gives her a title, if Sansa herself revendicates a status, etc), then everything will be fine. But it has not happened yet. Herein lies the potential for conflict…
Ser Pounce FTW
I wholeheartedly agree with you in relation to the respective trajectories of Jon and Sansa when it comes to chosing one’s heart (or not).
However, I would argue that, in the very specific case of Rickon, there was no choice to be made. Even if Sansa had decided to sacrifice herself, return to Bolton and have a child with him in exchange for her baby brother, he would not have let him live : Rickon was the legitimate Stark heir, the rightful Lord of Winterfell. By the male line. His mere existence threatened Ramsay’s hold on the North.
I believe the sole reason why Bolton did not kill him the second he got his hands on him was to use him as bait. To give the elder Stark siblings just enough of an illusion of hope to do something foolish. Which he did, very effectively.
But there never was any real hope.
Jenny
Oh I never said it would have been easy ! It would have been absolutely horrible, heartwrenching, torturous, soul-shattering. A medieval Sophie’s choice.
Which was Ramsay’s point, to be fair.
As for the audience’s reaction, well… It all depends on how it is written, shot and contextualised.
I would not compare it to Stannis’s actions though, to be honest : Stannis chose to have his daughter burnt at the stake by a religious fanatic. Under duress, of course, but he still chose. He was the one who put his daughter in mortal danger.
Jon did not choose to have his brother shot arrows at like a hunting prey. He was in no way, shape or form responsible for what was taking place on that battlefield. He was being psychologically tortured, toyed with by a character who had been previously established as a sadistic murderer (and a formidable archer).
Good point. Part of me wouldn’t be surprised if Sansa and LF bite it next season. Fact of the matter is that neither of them is equipped to deal with the White Walkers, and that is what the North is focused on. LF has always been about himself and outsmarting his enemies, but how do you outsmart an elemental force of nature? Another possibility is that he and Sansa will take each other out.
Sansa’s strength is the kind that’s about enduring, not initiating or risk-taking – as would have been deemed appropriate for women in her era. She was raised to be male-identified, to take her cues from the alpha male in her life, to defer to him. Add to that the fact that she has been repeatedly traumatized and probably has remnants of Stockholm syndrome going on. While she doesn’t want to be anybody’s tool anymore, she is by no means equipped to be a leader. As with most people who experience brutal treatment while young, the only way that will feel safe for her to be aggressive is to be passive/aggressive. All this adds up to a scenario where it makes perfect sense for her to sway toward the point of view of whichever man she happens to be with at any given time. Lots and lots of women, especially young women, are like that even without having lived through rape and captivity and so on.
So I guess what I’m saying is that we probably shouldn’t expect Sansa to be of one mind. When she’s with Jon she will feel solidarity with Jon and when she’s with Littlefinger she will defer to his savvy at playing the game. I think that her sense of self and purpose is still quite malleable at this point.
Mark,
As much as I like Jon, I have to disagree. He’s good on the battlefield, but he’s too much like his fathers (the one who sired him and the one who raised him) and look what happened to them.
Davos Seaworth,
All due respect, that’s complete and utter nonsense. He’s talking about book to screen (you very clearly have not read the books if you think book Jon’s only competence is on the battlefield) and he is 100% correct that they have massively dumbed the character down for the show. That isn’t even up for debate.
I’m trying to explain why Sansa hid the existence of the Vale. I can only think of three reasons:
– Show had her hide the Vale, and didn’t expect the audience to find that strange. That is not realistic, going by the responses to her decision making on various forums and going by the interviews here.
– She hid the Vale because she is too traumatized to think straight. This is problematic for me, as if true, Sansa is still the damsel in distress, the sole Stark sibling whose training failed. I can’t accept that, given statements that this is a “new Sansa,” given visual clues that her training succeeded: See Sansa’s black feathered dress, end of season 4.
– She hid the Vale as part of a game to win Winterfell. For me, this fits everything. The objection tends to be “but that makes her evil.” It certainly doesn’t make her a sweet, helpless young girl. But Arya just baked a Frey pie and fed it to Walder Frey, then cut Walder’s throat, and no one complained that this makes Arya morally questionable. Arya took revenge for her family. Sansa is working to put a competent Stark in charge of Winterfell and the North, and as far as she’s concerned, Jon is not that Stark.
Her gaming might not be long lived–I think she’ll discover Littlefinger’s part in killing her father, and take revenge. Sooner than later the Walkers will show up and all gaming will stop. Meanwhile, though, playing a game Littlefinger would be proud of is fitting for Sansa at this point in the show.
i would be interested in seeing the outcome of the information of how sansa was brought to ramsey. she told the kit in the north, excuse me the king in the north LF had sold her to the boltons. yet, LF told lord royce they were attacked on the way to the fingers and sansa was taken away from him. sansa, LF, and lord royce are all at WF to have their stories compared. LF obviously lied to lord royce, as well as threatened him, bullied him and falsely accused him of being the one to have helped abduct sansa. there is no love lost there. he doesn’t trust LF as it is. but sansa is not exactly truthful in her accounting. she had the chance to walk away from the arrangement but LF talked her into it. she thought she could handle the boltons and get her revenge but got in over her head because no one, including LF, knew what ramsey was like.
if and when the hound ever arrives hopefully the truth will be known of LF’s betrayal of ned stark. although, admittedly, LF holding a knife to ned’s throat may have kept him (ned) from trying to fight his way out and getting himself killed right at the get go, thus saving his life just so crazy joff and the executioner could take it later. had joff not been such a psycho, ned may still be alive today serving at the wall as was the original plan. at least that would probably be LF’s spin on the whole thing.
as for the look on sansa’s face when jon was named KitN, i saw it as pride in her brother until she saw LF looking at them. then it turned to ‘oh, crap’. i saw her as smiling until she saw LF watching them. but i’m sure others saw things differently and that’s ok. everyone has their own way of looking at things.
elybe,
And you just proved what happens when you assume. I read books 1-3 back in 2004 and the next two when they came out. I just reached a different conclusion than you. BTW, it always amuses me when fans think they know better than the people paid to do the actual writing.
Sophie has achieved the goal of converting Sansa from ‘Boss.Ass.Bitch’ to ‘Bitch’ in a single interview. Just when many haters were starting to like Sansa..
True, but then I get the feeling that Littlefinger will simply pull out a secret CCTV recording of the ‘dying’ Sandor telling Arya:
“And your sister. Your pretty sister. I should’ve taken her. That night the Blackwater burned, I should’ve fucked her bloody. At least I’d have one happy memory.”
Because ya know, Littlefinger. ? “Now who do you believe, Shansa???”
*Sandor bangs head on stone wall, stones fall apart*
Mag,
Ginevra,
I see what you mean. What they’re saying is definitely a bit conflicting to the visuals of the show. I wonder if they all have meetings specifically about how to lead fans off the trail. Something is definitely fishy. I can’t see Sansa betraying Jon in the future now that they’re reunited. If she does she’s going right back on my list of least favorite characters lol. I was so pissed at her for not siding with Arya over Nymeria biting Joffrey in S01.
orange,
Exactly. I have never misread this show before (or any shows for that matter), so you can imagine my dismay when I heard the actors and producers basically negating what I just saw. When I first heard the show’s interpretation, I thought well, I guess I need glasses. However, many people have spoken up about this, so it isn’t just me.
Jenny,
lmao at “sister-cousin”.
I don’t think it’ll be Sansa vs. Jon, they don’t have the time left to navigate that, but there will be conflict about how the Starks move forward. Sansa might even go South and reclaim the Riverlands. Who knows at this point. I just think with the Hound so close, it’ll be brilliant if he factors into her storyline again, agree with a comment above with regards to him being a sound influence on her. Interesting dynamic with Brienne sworn to Sansa also.
As for this Arya and Jon reunion, it’ll be emotional and heartwarming at first I’m sure but when reality sets in Jon will realise that Arya is a cold, merciless, killing machine. Don’t know how he’ll handle this? Point is they are not who they were once were, blood is blood but Jon and Arya might not he able to connect anymore.
A Sansa and Arya reunion is one I’m really waiting for. Ned’s line of them being two sides of the same coin has always struck a chord with me and reminds me of my two sisters who are complete opposites. I’ve always thought that these two could be the real dream team given the divergent journeys and personalities.
Davos Seaworth,
If that’s the case, I seriously recommend re-reading them, because Jon is explicitly described as being highly perceptive for his age from the moment we meet him. Benjen literally says to him, “You don’t miss much, do you Jon?” From the very first description of him: “Jon’s eyes were a gray so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little that they did not see.” There’s no ambiguity there.
Furthermore, I suggest reading ADWD, in which Jon (as Lord Commander) underhandedly gets involved in Northern politics despite his oath to take no part (think Ned would ever do that?), gives Stannis sound military advice and tells him how to recruit more Northerners to his cause, negotiates a hefty loan with the Iron Bank, and applies the scientific method to learn more about wights. Book Jon is highly intelligent, capable, and intuitive. What he isn’t is a legendary warrior.
Look, I can accept that the show is its own entity at this point, but lets call a spade a spade. D&D have chosen to dumb the character down. It is what it is.
Also love Aiden’s insight. Wonder how he felt not being featured as much this season. I do chuckle when he refers to his character in the first person.
As for Sophie, love her. She’s off the cuff and a clown in interviews so I never take what she says as sacred but denigrating her as a person for not understanding her character is harsh.
I totally agree, ACME. And yet, perhaps because there was no hope is the very reason Jon felt he absolutely had to try. The Sansa that left Winterfell wouldn’t have been able to write him off and the Jon that remained at the Wall/didn’t join in Robb’s war might have been able to leave Rickon up to his fate. I think this exercise was to define character growth more than anything else. Oh, and to create some drama 🙂
And that’s why I don’t think it was a mistake on Jon’s part. He couldn’t do anything else. He almost had no choice once he bought into saving his brother. While I understand what the directors are after with this “he didn’t listen to me” the truth is he did but couldn’t do what she wanted and hoped he would do. Any other victim and everyone would have played their role. But he couldn’t abandon his own baby brother when the boy was right there in front of him. So that’s hardly the same thing as not listening to her and her reaction makes Sansa come off as petty and cold. I fear this whole story line will make her look very hard and calculating when it’s all said and done and many fans will be unhappy.
RG,
Yeah. At some point, Cersai will realize that the Lannister army can’t fight on 4 fronts…or is it 5.. lost count.
If only she had another weapon of mass destruction… The only one I can think of is the White Walkers…..
Anyone think Arya will release Edmure from the Frey dungeon? I think it’s possible.
Aszusz,
Nadia,
Im not bashing. It’s jsut an opinion. I think she is a fantastic actor and Sansa is a great character. I haven’t seen Jon do anything other than tell her they should be on the same page. Sansa is the one that keeps going back to the well with LF. “Only a fool would trust LF.” Fast forward to Jon’s coronation and she’s back to looking at LF again and the wheels are turning in her mind on whether or not she should join him.
The instance I am speaking about is the sexist stuff she was saying about Jon. I don’t see it at all. It’s just my opinion. I don’t think she was trolling and never hinted at an iota of trolling from her. I think she doesn’t have a firm grasp on the actual story is all. She goes in and does brilliant acting on the show, but idk that she gets the big picture of how things are playing out.
The show runners are bashing us over the heads with how much doubt is in Sansa’s head about everything. Jon keeps telling her they have to be united. Jon’s done nothing but be loyal to her. Sansa’s gone through a ton, but I think she will play the fool in the end and side with LF. Her own character is explaining her mindset about only a fool would trust LF. She may not trust him, but i have a feeling she will at the very least try and use him to get what she wants in the end.
A little OT but is there going to be a part 2 of the s6 finale review GOO?
What “huge error” was that?
Jon was on offense, Ramsay on defense. Ramsay was never going to attack Jon’s forces on Jon’s terms, regardless of what Jon did with respect to Rickon. If Jon had just stood there, how would the battle have gone any differently? The two armies were facing off versus each other from the tops of two little hills or rises, and Ramsay certainly wasn’t going to come down off his and attack Jon on top of Jon’s lightly-fortified hill. Ramsay didn’t need to budge an inch. If Jon had let Rickon die without a fight, all that would have happened is that the Stark army would have been demoralized, but stuck in the same bad position as before – on a hill, facing off against a larger army waiting for them on another hill…an army that didn’t need move at all and wasn’t about to until the Stark army made a move.
Ironically, the battle turned out to occur in about the best place Jon could have hoped – the bottom of the gully. He wasn’t going to get anything better than this. I think the idea that Jon “screwed up” or harmed his army’s pathetic chances with the rescue attempt is based on some pretty thin gruel, honestly. If he had chosen differently, the outcome was always going to be the same – a devastating loss, barring outside intervention.
I think it is better to perceive Ramsay’s “game” as an attempt to decapitate the Stark army. It should have and darned near did work, and if it had, the battle would have been over before it really even began…but Sansa would have been right about not falling for Ramsay’s tricks.
The post-episode discussions have just confused me so much.
I wouldn’t have been surprised to see some Jon-Sansa tension, but the fact the showrunners, actors, etc have all been talking about how bad Jon screwed up is baffling to me.
I get how Sansa might feel entitled in the way that LF has twisted her to believe, but… she wouldn’t be a good leader. She knows nothing about the WW. She knows nothing about managing people. Her only experience is witnessing the corrupt players of KL- and that is no way means she’s on their level.
“She saved them! Jon isn’t acknowledging that, he’s screwing up!”
That isn’t coming across at all.
It’s more like the ex-girlfriend in highschool who got mad because you didn’t know what she wanted all the time despite her not telling you anything.
Jon may be naive, but Sansa’s much worse.
aabe,
I know I didn’t even mind her watching the episodes then after that I come and read the interviews and I’m like are you trying to make people hate her even more saying things that the scenes contradict lol
braavos2,
They were trolling us for sure … maybe she was an extra while she visited them on set …
Maureen,
I know he has bended over backwards for her all season and she still doesn’t trust him.What more does she want?She is the one who has been shady and he didn’t even hold it against her #Jondidnothingwrong2k16 and while we are at it #GetSansabacktothevale2k17 haha
That’s my point. But many think it was.
Azor Asshai,
Completely agree. For me there is nothing entertaining or exciting in a story that has telegraphed a clear, pat end game. If the fans truly had it all figured out, if there was no risk to the characters, no unexpected (but not unearned) plots, we’d all be bored as fuck and there’d be nothing to talk about. Fans may not admit it, but they prefer to be shocked and outraged, surprised and moved to merely getting what they think they want.
Gee, a rape victim and trauma sufferer having trust issues. Really out of left field.
So true. I also think that Sansa’s mistake is much, much worse than Jon’s. In the heat of the moment, Jon made an emotional decision and errored by falling into Ramsay’s trap. Sansa on the other hand decided to not tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale repeatedly, while at the same time whining about not having enough men, and offering zero solutions to their problems. When Sansa says no one asked her about Ramsay, Jon says she’s right and asks her. The blood of so many fallen soldiers lies solely in Sansa’s hands.
If the writers are going in Jon vs Sansa direction, Sansa will instantly become my most loathed character, and I’ve always liked Sansa.
Ser Pounce FTW,
I believe we actually agree 😀
I have no problem at all with Jon not being able to hold still while his baby brother was running for his life. While it went against his own battle plan and was strategically perilous, there is no doubt in my mind that riding towards Rickon was the only option, at that moment, both in his head and in his heart. As it would be for all of us.
So I do not think that is the problem or that it should (or will) be a controversial topic with Sansa. What could be, conversely, is the way he “heard” her advice.
He dismissed it as “obvious” when it was, in my opinion, everything but. “He likes to hurt people”, “Rickon is dead”, “he lays traps”, therefore “do not do anything he wants you to do” : those were informed observations based on her knowledge of Ramsay’s. Yet Jon treated it as common wisdom.
It could all be solved very easily, really. Jon could say “You were right about Ramsay. I guess I should have listened to you but… I just couldn’t” and Sansa could answer “I know. I couldn’t have either”. Boom ! Nobody’s guilty of anything; nobody’s to blame : just two people who were right about two different (and incompatible) things.
A simple nod to the fact that her judgment was valid, even if it was humanly impossible to abide by.
There is a distinct possibility the North will have to face the forces of the Realm (Cersei) next season. Sansa knows Cersei; she may again have a few ideas as to what to expect from the Mad Queen… A new test of mutual trust for our Dynamic Duo 😉
Maureen,
I agree to say that Sansa is inexperienced. As inexperienced as Tyrion was the first time his father made him Hand of the King “in abstentia” back in season 1. On the basis of one astute observation (Tyrion pointed out that Ned’s execution had rendered impossible any peace negociation with Robb), Tywin gave him this essential job. Tyrion had no previous experience in politics or state affairs yet he was entrusted with the responsibility and rose to the occasion. And then some.
Sometimes, you just have to do stuff to learn how to do stuff.
Could Sansa lead the North in its fight against the White Walkers ? No, of course. I doubt anyone could successfully argue against Jon’s record on that point.
Does it therefore means she is to be sidelined entirely ? Neither. The White Walkers are not the only current threat for the North, unfortunately. And Sansa’s participation may prove useful when dealing with the other dangers lurking around.
Anon,
No way. Arya is done with The Twins. They are desperately trying to reduce the amount of characters, Edmure is such a minor minor character who adds almost nothing to the story, it would be a waste of time for her to free him.
Jenny,
Davos Seaworth,
The complaint I have about Sophie and Maisie (occasionally D&D too) in interviews is that they don’t appreciate the power of ‘open to interpretation’. One of the main reasons for the success of GoT characters is that their actions can be admired, loathed or loved depending on the viewer’s perspective. Sophie and Maisie keep trying to convince the audience of some plot point or other, and they constantly trumpet the same views to the point of saying ‘deal with it’. The general sound is, “We are saying X will happen, X is exactly what is happening, X is what you should expect, you guys gotta believe it!” all the time when the real thing going to happen is Y which many fans are expecting but they don’t want the fans to expect (drama!). In a show like GoT, which is full of dramatic twists and turns, we know that the show-runners would want the twists to be surprising. So their interviews end up being badly done bluffs.
I’d be more serious in suspecting Sansa to betray Jon and become LF’s queen as Sophie seems to project, if only they were shut up about Sansa’s jealousy.
Again, I can totally understand the plot and character function of a Stark conflict – again, I refuse to believe that GRRM has written the Starks as the only family immune from internal conflict, no matter how much they’ve all been devastated and changed.
Still, I would’ve liked to see Jon be more blatantly condescending to her if that’s what they want us to see, but all I saw was a genuinely decent Jon who loves his sister and is trying to figure out how to manage all of this.
And the Sansa we got in their reunion, who was so concerned about him, who was emotional at seeing him, who apologized for how she treated him and recognizes how awful she was to him, becomes this resentful (apparently) creature.
So if you want us to understand this conflict, have Jon be more hungry for Winterfell (rather than be dragged into it), be more dismissive of Sansa giving him REAL actionable advice, etc.
But at the end of the day, maybe the point is that even though she apologized, Sansa STILL doesn’t see him as her brother or see him as a Stark, even though she says she does. That in her heart, she didn’t mean anything she said when they first spoke, or when they talked at Winterfell. But then don’t make her actual seem MOST SINCERE then?
wtf show
I’m not sure if it has been mentioned, but isn’t the North and the Vale now in open revolt against the Crown? What does this mean for Dany? She has guaranteed independence for the Iron Islands, presumably Dorne will want the same. What will her kingdom be?
I will just say, right now, I consider Kit Harington a far better actor than Sophie Turner. We could actually hear what Jon Snow was thinking from the way Kit was playing him. Hesitant at first, then excited and nervous when Lyanna speaks, then nervous and elated when he is pronounced KITN. You can see him get a small smile and then turns to look at Sansa with that smile and the smile immediately disappears as he seems to think ‘Oh shit Sansa!’ and then Sansa SMILES at him and he thinks that Sansa is OK with this and then turns to face the crowd being all OK this is it!
With Sansa, we get nothing most of the time. As one of the posters mentioned above, it’s hard to figure out what this character wants and what she is going for. Maybe that is the intention of the writers.
But then we get these behind the scenes interviews where the actors and writers are implicitly laying out Sansa’s motivations and intentions and nothing seems to be coming across in her scenes.
I just feel like this is the first time that Turner has been given something meaty to do and she has not been impressive. Maisie Williams and Isaac Hempstead Wright have done a far better job with their bad story arcs than Sophie has done with hers.
SerNoName,
I agree, Ser. This is a really big shot for a young actor. It’s too bad she’s not ready for her closeup…
She was a much better actor as young Sansa than she is now. Now, she seems too self-conscious. Maybe Sophie needs to stop messing around with fans and just focus on her craft.
Quinton O’Connor,
And he will fall for it again….
GoGo777,
Oh Christ…everybody on that show is traumatized!
I don’t understand why so many people are saying that any potential Sansa/Jon conflict is manufactured by D&D. None of us know how the story progresses beyond ADWD, but they do.
Aside from that, we all saw that outline from GRRM. Some things may have changed, but plenty also remained the same.
Don’t forget that GRRM has said that the reason he created Sansa was because the other Starks seemed to happy-happy and he wanted some conflict within the family. He didn’t want them all to get along so great. D&D aren’t pulling this potential conflict out of thin air.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
In reply to wheter Arya will release Edmure from dungeon:
Maybe. It would kind of suck for him to die down there. I’d like him to actually get to see that baby boy of his…the one he sacrificed everything for, and have a semi-happy ending.
Shaz,
If Arya were the “cold merciless killing machine” you claim, “Mercy” would have poisoned Lady Crane and Arya’s Braavosi business card would say “No One.” Since her days with Yoren, her goal has been to avenge the wrongs done to her immediate and extended family. Her skill set may have improved, but she is still Arya Stark of Winterfell and Needle is still Jon Snow’s smile.
El-Bobbie,
I don’t doubt that a conflict could happen. I just think the conflict that is being portrayed on the show doesn’t make much sense, and it is not being conveyed properly. That is just my opinion.
Fuchsia,
I think Jon – Daeny initial conflict is a given. Daeny wanting the North, esp as Starks instrumental in her House’s downfall; and North holding out.
If that happens Daeny will be an enemy in my eyes, much as Ive rooted for since beginning – conflict with Starks means your dragons can all die for all I care – thats why I think its gotta happen – better than any internal Stark sibling rivalry, both our heros against each other will be pure GoT style.
About Dorne – I doubt they want independence. They dont have Northern honour & pride, just Southern greed & spite – like Tyrells now. They both gonna need Daeny and House Targaryen’s (soon to be) new-found glory behind them to survive.
Plus those stupid bastard women put House Martell into extinction (Idiots!!) – no kingdom for them. (Writers just tryna make females dominate so they did that BS)
LatrineDiggerBrian,
But Riverrun is important.
Walder Frey’s constant bragging abt it, plus Jaime’s siege also hint at this importance.
I think (& hope) Edmure will have some role next season – he’s the only survivor of one of the greatest Houses of Westeros.
Then again, some of the lazily writtrn storylines this season gives me concern they might just put it under the rug
I blame all this on Lyanna mormont ..she can’t stand sansa being boss ass bitch and jealous of sansa..so she ignored sansa in the great hall and crowned Kit in the north ..and to rub it off she said she doesnt care of he is bastard..
Sansa and LF just kill jon and burn him this time to be thorough and complete the job ..
End of sarcasm just in case.
Anon,
We’re not discussing “everybody”, we’re discussing Sansa. Context matters.
El-Bobbie,
Are you saying that a stark may fight another stark or turn against one ..
For all the talk of predictablity and boring how other story lines are ..we the starks who held north for 8000 years never had a bad one who is not honorable not sane ,not ruthless, not cruel not one who turned against his own family..
Yeah I think we’ve seen the last of Edmure.
I doubt it. Sophie has really left a lot to be desired with her recent baffling comments. I don’t think she understands the story at all anymore.
El-Bobbie,
I’ve been trying to say this over and over.
I just don’t think GRRM will have this loving happy family. The Starks are not going to be immune to family drama. All of them are so damaged and so different from where they started, why are we supposed to believe that they’ll still be united and together like they were years ago?
I firmly believe this is not Sophie-generated drama. This IS the way the show is going, likely because it’s in the books too and it matters. They’re all talking about it.
It is not at all difficult for me to imagine that part of the sadness and trauma of GOT and ASOIAF is that it turns a family we love against each other.
Maybe not forever, but this idea that “Sansa’s not going to betray Jon” seems naive. She’s not going to kill him, but she certainly might go JUST far enough to make him not be KITN.
Jack Bauer 24,
I really hope the producers and actors stop making comments about this story line. Less is more in this situation.
Jack Bauer 24,
Dude, everyone is saying it. Benioff said there’s anger and jealously. Kit and Liam are talking about it.
And when it comes to the earlier conflict, they ALL said Jon wasn’t listening to Sansa.
People need to stop with the “Sophie doesn’t know anything” garbage.
I have a feeling I’m really not going to enjoy the stuff coming out of Comic Con at this rate.
Have you seen this video of GOT about death at Castle Black. Jon isn’t the same character after death??? I could have believed it at the beginning but after the last two episodes, the character is the same for me.
Her interpretation is bizarre though. Yeah, Benioff and Liam have said there’s possible friction, but they aren’t saying Jon was acting sexist like she did. Or that Jon should be the one who is more open with her and not the other way around. She’s spinning it like Sansa is in the right while Benioff and Liam have said no such thing.
Sophie’s lost the plot unfortunately and her interviews continue to get more cringey and face palmy.
This is what Sophie has been saying this whole week but this is what writers and liam and kit also said..
So let’s just leave that..
What i want to focus and worry is how they are writing female characters when they are killing ..Emilia was blamed most for having the smile on her face while killing ..but I have been saying this is writers and Sophie is another example for this where the writers and directors make this decision..the reactions to crucification was completely different in the books and i don’t think she will smile while burning khals…same goes for sansa if or when she becomes a killer in the books ..
So this leaves us with two options why they are doing it..
1) this is the way the writers want to portray badass and confident women
2) this is how they want audience keep questioning ..
I go with both second option and first option …dany for most of the part has been made badass and confident and removed most of scenes where she is having doubts or afraid..
For second option I can understand the show going this route with arya and cersei but I don’t think why they went with dany and sansa also especially when they do not do that in the books .
Rob,
How does it not make sense? Sansa should be the rightful heir of Winterfell and Jon was just named KITN right in front of her. Does it not make sense that she feel a teensy bit of jealousy and anger? Especially knowing how Cat raised her, and how Jon was looked at as a threat to the trueborn Stark claims?
And if they find out Jon isn’t even Ned’s bastard, but Lyanna’s son? That makes his claim to Winterfell even weaker than it already was.
Nadia,
The problem is they need to show us this conflict not tell us.
El-Bobbie,
Like another poster said before, she had spoken out at the first war meeting, so why did she need an invite during the last one? She apologized to Jon and dismissed LF. The look on her face did not convey jealousy to me but concern. If she wanted to be Queen, then why did she try to turn down the Lord’s chamber? I don’t see the conflict.
Lyanna might weaken it, but Rhaegar strengthens it, enormously.
It’s not so much that this is conflict, but rather that it just doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense as presented. Jon has been exceptionally fair to Sansa, and she has no legitimate grievances against him. The reverse is not true, but Jon immediately forgave it.
Jack Bauer 24,
Sophie said in an interview that she didn’t watch the last episode yet, so maybe she is referring to the original script and not the final product. She also said in an interview that the writers like to lie to them about their storylines for next season.
I believe the script said Sansa looked angry, disappointed or something like that.
Besides, there is a scene cut of Sansa, right??? She said in the trailer “It’s all I think about, what was taken from me”????
Sansa could be jealous but I can’t see her damaging Jon. And Bran must arrive Winterfell next season.
Rob,
Iam watching the KITN scene now..
And sansa has the same expression which LF has on her face whe manderly says jon snow avenged red wedding and calls him KITN..
She smiles when jon sees her but she loses it as soon as jon turns..
There is definitely jealousy and disappointed she is not getting credit.
I think kit is right he is not watching her properly and making a mistake ..
But I don’t think this going to lead to anything big ..sansa will kill LF in the end and be on the side of Jon.
New Game of thrones video out on youtube
It could be that the audience will think Sansa is betraying Jon when she will actually be playing Littlefinger. We will all be incensed about it until boom! it was all about betraying LF not Jon. Hopefully, LF finally gets what is coming to him and it won’t be pretty. I think the set-up is starting for us to think Sansa is going to go against Jon.
Plus, this why didn’t Jon say anything about Sansa is the room is shouting King of the North then shot cuts away. Who is to say that in season 7, after everyone chills, Jon states something about Sansa being the Lady of Winterfell or some such.
I just have to say to this that a friend was Balticon and was present at two private functions with the guest of honour GRRM. She said he was asked about his original outline and he said it was all bullshit and that he was annoyed that it was made public as it was personal communication. He then reiterated his “gardening” style of writing.
So just take that original outline with a boulder of salt.
LOL! Yeah. Sophie is going to be there talking about how Jon is sexist and cheering on LF to sit on the Iron Throne.
I do agree though that this is the direction that her character is going to move towards in the books. As someone mentioned above, Sansa was created as a character to create conflict among the Starks because not all families get along. Why should all the Starks be uniformly good and nice? Even in the books, Sansa has a streak of selfishness. She is not too bothered by the fact that SweetRobin is getting slowly poisoned so that she can marry Harry the Heir. She is learning from LF. When one plays the game, one has to get their hands dirty.
Besides, we have Weiss stating that Sansa is not a pure, clean Stark. So we are certainly going to see some play by LF/Sansa against Jon.
The problem comes when the writers and Sophie try to portray Sansa as being in the right in her scenes with Jon. The writing and acting does not support that. They are trying to have their cake and eat it to. They want Sansa and Jon to go up against each other, but they want Sansa to have a legitimate reason to do so. Unfortunately, the writing and acting let them down because the way it played out, almost everyone supports Jon and not Sansa.
Thank you. I want Sansa to get a story instead of being supplemental and be happy for Jon. I’m extremely excited for the North storyline going forward. LF’s chaos is welcome tbh. And, thank you for the points about the incest. Blood isn’t the only way to be a sibling.
As much as GRRM would like to disavow the original outline, many of those story points have turned up in his books. He has just split his original characters into several side characters. For example, the original had Jaime murdering everyone in KL and sitting on the Iron Throne. He seems to have split that Jaime into Jaime and Cersei and made Jaime more morally grey while Cersei gets to be evil. In the current story it looks like it’s Cersei who murders everyone and sits on the IT.
Similarly in the original, Tyrion burns down WF and there is a love triangle between Jon/Arya/Tyrion. In this version, Ramsay burns down WF and Jon and Ramsay fight over fake Arya.
The story has expanded because GRRM is a gardener. But I suspect we get many of the same elements in the original outline in a different form.
To be honest, I’ve never looked at Sansa as having the interest of anyone other than herself at heart. Sure, I’ve felt for the horrible atrocities she’s suffered, but I never thought that she was particularly admirable from way back in season 1.
So, yeah, I can kinda see her still in that “how does this benefit me”, “where is my power and glory” mode and in the the times approaching that attitude won’t really be productive. Im not sure the Northern lords would ever have rallied around her the way they did Jon. In fact I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t.
Arya is all about revenge for her family. Bran is about learning all he can to help stop the nights king. Rob was about revenge for Ned. Jon is about trying to live up to the ideals of the man he thinks is his father and will always think of as his father. And saving everyone’s ass from the WW’s. Rickon we never really got to know. Sansa has pretty much always been about Sansa.
Sigh… so silly. Such silly silly writing. So they’ve actually made her stupid.
El-Bobbie,
No, Bran is the rightful heir. Yes, outsiders think he’s dead but Sansa and Jon have reasons to suspect otherwise. In the end, knowing Jon he’ll probably give it up if he survives the showdown with the walkers. He’s always wanted Winterfell but not out of ambition or hunger for power, he always wanted it because it represented acknowledgement and family. He’s learned to wear his bastardy as an armor, I hope he now gets that people are able and willing to see past that. On a personal level, he doesn’t need Winterfell, he doesn’t need the Stark name or the Targaryen name. He only needs to be himself and people will follow. That is his gift and that is his burden. When I think about Jon and how he came to be, I think of that scene between Dumbledore and Snape, when Severus plainly asks if Harry was protected only that he could eventually be sacrificed. But I think I’ve gone off topic so I’ll stop my rambling.
Fuchsia,
He may say that it’s bullshit, but a lot of elements are still lining up. Dany took control of the Dothraki, Bran heads North of the wall, Jaime’s character was split into Jaime and Cersei and she killed all those ahead of her and took the throne. So I doubt GRRM goes from 2 Stark conflicts in the outline to zero Stark conflicts.
Jon knew perfectly well it was a trap, he just didn’t care. Jon was more then willing to sacrifice his own life for Rickon’s life.
Jon did not tell his army marsh foreward after him, Davos is the one who give that order. You can see that Jon truly believes that he is about to die, and he welcomes death at that stage.
When all of horses clashes around him, he looks genuinely surprised.
Jon actually sacrificed himself not his whole army.
Kit Harington about Jon after resurrection:
‘A Little bit of bad has entered him, a little bit of evil. I am back, but something’s gone’
Um, what?! I would love some evil! Jon Snow. It would make the Sansa vs Jon stuff more conflicting. Instead we got mopey Jon Snow who is a bit of a right idiot.
I have to wait for the books to have a better exploration of Jon as a character after resurrection since the show just shrugged that aside after episode 3. I think book Jon will be more ‘evil’ than the show version.
Chad Brick,
How does Rhaegar strengthen Jon’s claim to Winterfell? The North at this point is proclaiming themselves an independent kingdom, a Targaryen has no claim to Winterfell. Jon’s only claim to Winterfell comes from Lyanna, and we all know Ned has the claim over Lyanna.
Danny,
Jon and Sansa know Bran wasn’t killed by Theon. They don’t know anything beyond that, it’s literally been years since then. None of them know when Bran is going to return. All they can do is work with who is present, and right now only Jon and Sansa are present. They can’t wait around for years waiting to see if Bran may one day show up. Somebody needs to rule Winterfell, and at this point the one with the strongest claim is Sansa. The fact that she was passed over for Jon is not something she’s going to just ignore.
Sansa is shallow beyond belief. She has only been looking out for number one all her life. Nobody would be allowed to interfere with her dream of being queen with beautiful Joffrey. She had no use for Jon or Arya or loyalty to them. She willfully betrayed her father to Cersei, unintentionally getting him killed. She had no savvy either, but that minor compared to lack of loyalty. For all the brutality she lived with in KL, the only person who taught her how to think, how to see, how to act, how to plot and connive effectively is Baelish. Again and again he’s shown her the success of deviousness and focus in progressing toward one’s personal goal. Surely, she’s rethinking her loyalty to Jon and leaning toward taking her chances with LF. Moreover, she has a history of making BAD decisions–LF says Ramsay is a nice lad, ergo I shall accept the marriage. LF distrusts this freakish lady knight, ergo I shall reject her offer of protection. LF protected me from Lysa his wife by killing her, ergo I shall not reveal that murder to the Vale, no matter how dubious his subsequent behaviour.
Oh, yes, she’ll side with Littlefinger against Jon, at least until LF is revealed for the traitorous arsehole that he is. Another thing, posters who quote her magnanimity towards Jon at WF forget the timing and context. Sansa could afford to be kind and affirming to him WHILE SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS ABOUT TO GET WINTERFELL. When he got it instead, that magnanimity vanished. In screenwriting terminology, her words we “on the nose” but her real feelings were revealed only in the subtext. As GRRM says, “words and wingd”. Many viewers and posters heard and therefore believed the words. Unfortunately, Sophie is a rather one-dimensional actress and didn’t convey the subtext well, though a number of you have picked up on it anyway.
Someone explain what you think this parallel is —
Ned tells Arya in King’s Landing about Sansa basically that they can’t fight a war amongst themselves.
Jon tells Sansa “we can’t fight a war amongst themselves.”
It’s what makes people feel like Sansa hasn’t changed at all, though hopefully this time it’s a different outcome.
But also, god I love how much they had Jon echoing Ned in the episode they confirm Ned is not his father
They’ve done a horrible job with Jon’s character development going back to season 2. Instead of Jon learning from Qhorin we got “Jon spoons with Ygritte in the middle of a frozen wasteland and then gets lead into an ambush”. Instead of showing how Jon grew as a leader as LC we just got action scenes. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardhome, but it seems to have come at the expense of showing how intelligent Jon had become. (not to say he’s a political genius)
I can’t think of any character that has had as many subplots and supporting characters cut out of their storyline as Jon.
AT LEAST include how he stays up late reading to show how he’s grown since asking Tyrion why he reads so much.
I don’t see at all how Jon didn’t listen to Sansa.
When they were at Castle Black and received the raven from Ramsay, it was Sansa who was championing taking back Winterfell and saving Rickon.
“A monster has taken our home and our Brother. We have to go back to Winterfell and save them both.” If I recall correctly, she made a comment to him earlier that if he wouldn’t help her take back WF, she would do it herself.
He was listening to her. He took his cue from her to recruit the Wildlings and House Glover and House Mormont.
So, he did what a commander would do. Sansa herself said that houses would rally behind them. They took her lead and went on a mission to garner support. They gave it their all and couldn’t get enough men. So what is Jon supposed to do at that point? Sit at Castle Black with Sansa and wait for Ramsay to send his force up there? Say never mind Ramsay, we don’t need to battle and let Rickon rot in a cell at Winterfell?
Then at the council, when Davos was speaking about eligible houses (Karstark, Umber), she did speak up. She spoke about the Blackfish taking back Riverrun and Brienne was sent to see him.
So, all this talk about how Jon didn’t listen to her is bullshit. She told him Ramsay would try to trap him and he did but what was Jon supposed to do? Not try to get to Rickon before an arrow? That just isn’t Jon. Just like that wouldn’t be Ned or Catelyn or Arya or a lot of them. Taking chances on a trap to save someone you love…that sounds like Jon.
I am not dismissing Sansa’s frustration but it feels like that particular conflict was forced. Now, not telling about the Vale army probably would’ve been helpful but neither one of these characters are at 100%. They are both traumatized and running on fumes.
That’s because the show wants to put the characters into neat little boxes like Isaac said in his own interview. Where Jon is warrior, Sansa is super diplomat, Arya is assassin etc. It’s disheartening to see show only fans view Jon as an idiot who needs Sansa around to manage the politics, when in the books Jon is an average warrior at best, but a really good diplomat and knows Northern politics very well . I can’t blame them because that’s how Jon has been portrayed on the show. They had to give Sansa something to do on this season, so Jon is lacking a brain and is only good for swinging a sword.
kells,
Jon didn’t listen when he charged Ramsay alone after Rickon was shot. He had time to turn around, go back to the original plan, and gather his forces as one unit. Instead, after Rickon is shot, Jon stares dramatically at Ramsay and then still chooses to charge him despite what Sansa told him.
Ach,
Littlefinger will play Jon like he did Ned in season one. However, instead of doing a Ned, Jon will be ready and chop his head off.
Either that or Littlefinger survives and ends up master of coin with Varys as master of whispers to whoever ends up on the throne. I’d kind of dig that.
Jon didn’t charge until the first round of arrows went into the air, so we don’t know if he had time to turn around. From the sequence, it looked like the arrows landed behind him as he rode forward. So chances of him getting hit going back were just as great (if not greater) than riding towards them.
The second Rickon was released, started running and he saw Ramsay with the bow, he knew it was a trap but it would be completely out of character for him to not at least try to save him.
Yeah, it was a suicide ride to charge Ramsay like that but at the moment, on the battlefield, strategy takes a dump and the emotion of the moment takes over.
I dont think we have really seen much of Jon’s true personality this season. After his resurrection he has been struggling, he did not understand why he was brought back and he thought of himself as a failure.
For most of the season he has been wishing thst he was still dead.
Jon needed to be reborn again. He needed to decide that he wanted to be alive, even if he still doesn’t quite understand why he came back.
Perhaps we will only now get an idea of his true personality after death. It will be intetesting to see if there is any changes.
In the last episode Jon stood up and spoke relatively well. When he was recruiting soldiers earlier in the season he was struggling to string 3 sentences together. He wanted to run away and ignore the White Walker threat at first, once again we saw him focusing on the White Walkers. I hope all of this behaviour signifies more of his personality after being reborn again, during the Battle of the Bastards.
I hope we will get to see more of him truly ruling within Winterfell next season. Jon may not to be suited to Southern politics, but he really understands the North and he understands Northern politics very well. I would like to see some good ruling from Jon next season, and it would also be very interesting if Jon displayed more ruthlessness.
El-Bobbie,
Original outline is not indicator for much. He laughed at idea to put Jon with his sister. Original outline was changed a lot.
A Man Grown,
I agree, Jon did nothing wrong. He’s the guy that always tries to do what’s right. To be honest, I don’t know why so many love Sansa. What is great about her? And nobody bring up “she suffered” because that does not tell me anything about what you like about her character and personality. Many people suffered, that doesn’t make them “good.” I don’t know, maybe if I were a teenage girl I’d be able to identify with her but she’s always come off to me, aside from a few scenes, as arrogant and annoying. I liked her with Margaery, in the keep during Blackwater, sticking up for Dontos, and retrieving the cup for Tyrion. I thought she was making progress but now the way she’s been acting ever since escaping Winterfell she just appears to be lacking empathy, warmth and charm. In the interview where Sophie says about Sansa:
“I think Jon means they need to be more open with each other and tell each other what’s going on — and it’s very frustrating for Sansa to hear him say that. She knows he means it more about her than it is him talking about himself. And he really needs to trust her.”
Why is it frustrating to hear him request that they be open and honest with each other? After how she withheld the Vale info she’s lucky that’s all he had to say about it afterwards. She knows he means it more about her…well duh yes isn’t that obvious after all she is the one who didn’t lay all cards on table not Jon! So he really needs to trust “her?” She’s playing us guys. Good job Sophie 🙂
LF and Sansa romance? Yeah, I think so.
“Littlefinger told her it would happen and now there’s kind of a trust built between them. He helped her out.”
“There is definitely room for those two to build on this relationship that they have and I think their trust with each other is going to get stronger and stronger. He betrayed her once I don’t think he’ll do it again […] I think they’d be a good little duo.”
I will loathe Sansa forever. But maybe that’s the point – maybe that’s what you’re supposed to do.
Those postulating that potential conflict lies ahead between Jon Snow and Sansa Stark have not clearly viewed the final scene that occurs in the Stark Great Hall.
When Lyanna Mormont dresses down the Stark bannermen who refused the call of House Stark, it is clear from Sansa’s expression, that she heartily agrees with Lady Mormont’s rallying call behind Jon Snow. Sansa is emotionless at the beginning of the scene, but her expression changes, and she curls a thankful smile toward Lyanna as she hears her words. She is without doubt, pleased to hear the House of Mormont rally behind Jon Snow. The cameras show Sansa’s reaction twice.
As the bannermen express their regrets and then pledge fealty to the ‘White Wolf’ .. it is only then that Sansa looks toward Littlefinger, and sees that he is not pleased with this outcome. Sansa immediately recognizes that it is Baelish who will seek to undermine Jon, and her expression changes from that of one pleased with the outcome of this meeting of the bannermen, to one of recognition as to where the next threat to House Stark lies. Peter Baelish.
Grayven Reyne,
Jonienne I ship it 🙂 Jk
You bring up good point. Brienne could very well be the one who can’t abide it and ends up warning Jon of michief brewing. I already like Brienne but if she does that I will love her for it 🙂
Unfortunately, with the Sansa in the North plot, we will not get to see any of that. It will be more of naive Jon making dumb mistakes or sword fighting bad guys and white walkers while Sansa displays ruthlessness and diplomacy. Ex: See season 6.
For the love of God, I surely didn’t get the jealousy/resentment vibe. It’s only through the interviews that I came to know there’s supposed to be some tension there. We can’t just pin this on Sophie though – everyone’s talking about it: Kit, Liam, the writers, and now even Aidan. My sense is that that’s how the actors were briefed about their scenes. We have to remember, the interviews of Kit/Sophie/Liam happened while they were filming that episode. So, I don’t think they talked about this thing several months ago just to troll us now. 🙂
Anyway, since I was so confused about all these, I asked about 5 friends (who are casual viewers of the show) how they read the scene. And they ALL said they thought Sansa was not so happy about it! They noted that she wasn’t smiling while people were shouting KitN and only smiled when Jon looked a her. They interpreted the look between Sansa and LF as “You were right”/”I told you so”. I’m happy that a number of you here also didn’t sense the tension (so it’s not just me, haha!) but we better brace ourselves because that might be the theme for Team Stark next season. LF loves chaos and it’s almost certain he’s gonna create one between Jon and Sansa.
Being (arguably) the rightful king of the entire realm strengthens one’s claim on anything and everything.
You know, I really don’t get the Jon-Sansa romance expectation because I don’t think they’re each other’s type. Jon would seem to prefer fierce, tomboyish, street-smart, no-nonsense women while Sansa would seem to fall for cunning, intelligent, on-top-of-their game kind of men. If they weren’t siblings, I don’t think they’d hang out together. They’d just bore each other. LOL. Even in their scenes together, you could tell they’re distant and so different, hence the bickering. Even that kiss on the forehead seemed awkward. They’re like those family members forced to interact with each other because they’re, well, family.
Having said that, if LF had not killed Lysa and was not obviously a worm, he is someone Sansa could admire and maybe fall in love with.
Nadia,
Exactly. I don’t think we’re supposed to root for Sansa. She turned against the fam because she wanted to marry the young king, she stayed on even after he had her father killed right in front of her, she agreed to marry into the family that was complicit in the deaths of her mother, brother, sister-in-law and niece/nephew, and now she’s going to align with the conniving man who set the wheels in motion for the downfall of her whole family and Stark hold on the north.
SerNoName,
He acts like Ned, looks like him and deals with things like him. We all love Ned but he was naive, so is Jon. Out of all children it is ironic that Jon is most like Ned. His bastard or well nephew. Sansa is more like Baelish as Aidan Gillen admitted that Sansa is becoming more ruthless. She lost Lady it might symbolize that her Stark roots are not that strong as for others.
I so get what you mean. He’s responding to her “I’m sorry, I didn’t tell you about LF and the Vale…” And he responded with “We need to trust each other. We have so many enemies now. We can’t fight amongst ourselves.” That last line, by the way, is the same one Ned uttered to Arya.
These interviews are completely opposite to what happened on screen. Honestly I ve seen this before, I ve seen interviews with Dan and David where my impressions after watching a scene is completely different from theirs and I ve seen these interviews with the actors as well.
That is why I have stopped watching a lot of these interviews, in my experience the show works better for me when I just consentrate on what is actually seen on screen during the show. I dont know why this happens, if it is some purposeful misdirection or if some facts are embellised too much, but this is the worse case of it, that I have seen. It just seems like what they are saying, and what is happening on screen are two completely different stories.
Of course people also need to keep in mind that the scripts for season 7, wasn’t even written at the time of most of these interviews.
I dont think there is going to be a lot of time for the North to play games. They have three big immediate enemies around them. In the North there is White Walkers and in the South mad Queen Cersei will not be happy with their presence. At the same time Dany is approaching with a massive army and three dragons.
All of Littlefinger’s plans will be completly screwed, as soon as Dany arrives. Her army is massive, and dragons, but Dany also has Tyrion and Varys, there is no way that they will ever tust Littlefinger.
So what is he going to do about his ambitions once Dany arrives?
The Knights of the Vale might also become a problem for him. During the King in the North scene, the Vale Knights including Yohn Royce, took out their swords and they also proclaimed Jon as the King. I hope there is something more to this.
If Yohn Royce sees Jon as his King then he might not have to follow Littlefinger’s orders anymore. Jon as the King would outrank Littlefinger.
The Vale is currently in a quite difficult spot. There is no way that they would want to align themselves with mad Queen Cersei, and Sweet Robin is to unstable and completely unfit for an independent kingdom, while Jon might actually remind them of Ned, and Ned was truly loved and respected within the Vale. They could quite easy just become part of the Northern Kingdom, they really dont have many options.
If these were more stable and peaceful times then Sansa could have been the ruler in the North. But currenty the North is only approahing a harsh winter and more wars. This is not the time for Southern political games.
As a leader one of your first and most important duties is to take responsibility for the lives of others.
This is where Sansa’s charater as a potencial leader falls short. Sansa has never really taken responsibility for others, she has never really displayed a lot of empathy towards other people.
Jon has always taken resonsibility for others, right from the start he protects Sam and he creates his own little group within the Nights Watch.
Jon also sacrifices Qhorin Halfhand in order to gain information about the Wildlings, he also sacrifices Ygritte in order to warn and help the Night Watch.
This is what leadership is about, taking responsibility, making hard decision and making sacrifices.
I dont think Littlefinger will have it quite so easy as in previous seasons.
Sophie and D&D did say in their interviews mid-season that Sansa “doesn’t have the Stark way anymore.” I’m more convinced now that it is the direction that the writers are taking this character. I don’t like it but then it will also add some drama in the North. It can’t be all roses for them from hereon. They need to make that part of the story exciting while the South is being contested by the 2 queens. I don’t think the wall is coming down in the first few episodes (will likely happen towards the end of season 7) so Jon, Sansa, et al, need to have some tension in their stories otherwise they’re gonna be boring.
Booooooooooom!!!!! 😀
Yeah I have to agree. Although we can root for both, Jon as King in the North and Littlefinger as King in the Iron Throne with Sansa as her wife. That would be something.
Arya I think is doomed. Show Dany is annoying as hell, so I hope she is too. Bran I really have no idea…I thought he was a tree. I kinda like Euron and Daario too. And Melisandre. Basically all those grey characters black and white people tend to hate 😛
May be time to start referring to Sansa as Sansa Bolton. She has more in common with the Boltons than the Starks if what Sophie says is the direction Sansa is headed. She is no Stark, just a selfish, self centered brat. Maybe Arya will kill the family traitor. 🙂
orange,
It’s as if Sophie forgot the part where Jon suggests that she take up leadership of House Stark, and she tells Jon that he deserves it.
In short, Jon offered her Winterfell and the Queenship of the North, and she refused.
In this context, why would she be jealous of Jon, or think that Littlefinger is a better ally?
Methinks Sophie doesn’t quite know what she’s on about.
Because it was , man. We’ve been discussing this in the comments of the other posts and I’ve been saying this exactsame thing before this interviews came out. I think people just don’t see what they don’t want to see
I think she knows perfectly 😉
ygritte,
Um sorry I have problems with her like anyone else but half of those things she had zero control over as an abused young girl who was basically held hostage by the Crown – where would this young girl have run and how after the king beheaded her father and he publicly confessed to being a traitor?
That being said, people can feel as they will about Sansa NOW but having to stay in KL and marrying Tyrion was completely out of her control
Pau,
For the life of me, I cannot understand the hatred some people have for show Dany. She’s smart, shes respectful and open to the advice of people that she deems smarter than she is (eg. Tyrion), she’s a destroyer of slave empires, and she and Jon are the only remaining rulers with empathy and an admirable moral compass. I can understand not loving Emilia’s acting all the time, but what exactly is so objectionable about the character?
I’m amused with people still saying “Jon didn’t listen to Sansa”. As we often say, talking is easy, it’s the doing that is the real sh*t. It’s so, so, so much easier to dispense advise when you’re in a safe, comfortable place than to be right there in the battlefield. Besides, Sansa didn’t give Jon any specific strategy.
ArgonathofBraavos,
To play devil’s advocate, where did he offer her QITN? He said she’s the Lady of Winterfell. And then the North proclaims him KITN and everyone ignores that she’s sitting there. I mean Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding? In truth, he didn’t, not REALLY.
I think there’s enough in the show to tell you she’s not happy with how things are. For me, it seems most clear in her talk with LF, but you can see him really drawing her into his words and her almost being entranced before she shakes herself out of it when he tries to kiss her.
Sam,
To be honest, I was actually getting the vibe in their first encounters – in part because we’d never seen them on screen together as siblings and all of a sudden you get these two attractive people like so warm and happy to see each other and it felt like the first time Jon had laughed in a century. (damn this show for ruining it)
HOWEVER, I think there’s a 0.0% chance of the show doing it. Still, your description of who he likes certainly rings true for his type in the books (RIP forever Val you deserve to be on this show) but sounds way way different than Dany, and the show is projecting very very hard they’ll be together.
/shrugs I have zero clue what D&D will do anymore some things just defy logic
ArgonathofBraavos,
I love Jon and Dany. IMO, they’re born leaders. They are what the realm needs although not necessarily deserve.
ArgonathofBraavos,
I think it’s the sense that people have that it’s all so easy for Dany because whatever happens she’s like “dracarys.” After all, who can resist dragons? And that basically everyone’s bent a knee to her and she’s just gathering armies and advisors left and right without the STRUGGLE.
I don’t know, I love Dany in the books, who really struggles, who doesn’t just rely on her 25 titles and dragons, who feels vulnerable and worried about whether she is ready for the burdens of leadership, even though she feels like the throne is as much her DUTY as it is her right.
Show Dany just seems….meh to me. I’m tired of her massive set pieces where thousands of people fall over themselves for her in lieu of real character growth.
I don’t know, does this Dany seem all that different than she was 2 seasons ago to you? To me she doesn’t, and it might be Emilia’s acting, or it might be the plot.
Nadia,
Yes, I was thinking of Val, too! In fact, when I was reading the books, I imagined Jon, after the Great War, could end up joining the free folk instead of sitting on the IT (by his choice). 🙂
I’m not sure if there will be enough episodes to establish a romance between Jon and Dany. Methinks they’ll meet at the start of season 8 but by that time, they’ll be too busy fighting the walkers that they won’t have time to even think of romance.
He is and he isn’t at the same time, that goes for being naive and it goes for being like Ned.
I think both statements are over simplifying their characters somewhat. Both character actually knew that they were making some very unpopular decisions before their deaths. They really knew that they could be killed at any moment. It is not like they never understood that their decisions was unpopular or what the impact might be. They understood it all perfectly, too well.
But both of their characters values duty. They will try to do their duty even if it kills them. If they believe something is the right thing to do, then they will commit to that cause and they will take responsibility or suffer the consequences of their actions.
Therefore, I wouldn’t exactly think of them as naive, it is more of a stubborness, I think Robb was the one who might have been more naive.
Ned and Jon’s characters are very simular but I believe Jon’s experiences has made him more flexible then Ned. Jon often makes decisions that Ned would not have done. It is a bit of a struggle for Jon at times he really tries to act like Ned, but he doesn’t always succeed. I cant think that Ned would have condoned Jon leaving the Night Watch for example.
If any of this potential Stark drama plays out like this, I hope that this and his eventual knowledge of R+L=J will lead him to separate himself from the Starks. It seems it might be for the best. That knowledge will put everything into perspective for him…he doesn’t feel like one of them because he’s not. He was never meant to fit because they are not his family. I think all this drama may be needed for him to let go of this dream and move on. He’s wasted enough time trying to prove himself to people. Enough is enough. That poor boy deserves better. He can leave them to fight over whatever they wish and he can go find some peace.
Nadia,
This is the reason why I’d hope for Dany to face a great setback first before she defeats Cersei and conquers the KL. Otherwise, it will be the same boring sequence. As it stands now, with that armada of hers, Dany could finish off Cersei and her reign in less than 5 minutes! I’m hopeful the writers will come up with something exciting for the War in the South.
Nadia,
Well you may very well ask this question about any character .
Does jon look any different from 2 season ago..is tyrion jamie arya.
But otter than that I agree with what you are saying ..the show only focused on her big set pieces not focused her internal struggles or compassion more ..
And I pray to god they give her some good lines at least on the upcoming season..
If it wasn’t there how come many people picked it up? Maybe it was there and you guys refused to see it 😉
Is not hate, man. I just find here annoying. Some absurd plot points don’t help either. I liked her until season 4 I’d say. All her stuff this season just didn’t sit right with me.
I’ll ask you the reverse…why all the hate for Daario¿?
While I agree that tension between Jon/Sansa/LF will most likely be a focus next season (that means I agree with Nadia to some extent), I think we are overreacting a bit. It’s not like the first time the interviews are not 100% correct and from what we’ve seen from the show, Sansa didn’t go full power-hungry mode in season 6. Hence “You should take it. You will always be a Stark to me”
Last year, I remember the producers saying: “Sansa is a character we care about almost more than any other, and the Stark sisters have from the very beginning been two characters who have fascinated us the most” and I’m sure there was a reason they didn’t gave Sophie a year off in season 5.
After all, we only have to wait 10 months for the next season.
ArgonathofBraavos,
Well said.
ArgonathofBraavos,
I’m not sure if it is Danenerys or Emilia Clarke’s acting but I found her really annoying in all scenes when she is supposed to be “badass”, but actually has a pretty villainous look. When Sansa has that kind of look (Ramsay’s death, LF arriving with his army), everyone is saying “She is a villain now. She will hurt Jon.” but when Daenerys has it, they are all “She is so perfect. I love her…”
And like Nadia said, she achieves great things without any struggle just because she has three dragons. Actually, I really liked her in the scene where she says goodbye to Jorah and when she names Tyrion as her Hand.
I like when the characters are brought to their emotional limits. When was the last time it happened to Daenerys? When Drogo died? I was actually glad that Barristan died in season 5, so Daenerys could freaking realize that she is not untouchable.
Vyse,
This is what I keep going back to, when Ned jokes to Arya back in S1 saying not to poke her sister with needle. Now Arya is a true assassin on her way back home where Sansa is currently being set up as a possible enemy of Arya’s beloved brother Jon. Maybe. See, I have trouble believing that they’re going to have Sansa go full out traitor. For one thing, there is not enough time to develop that, and the only reason for Arya to literally kill her sister is if she’s so beyond redemption as in like being complicit in premeditation of murder.
Nadia,
She had the opportunity to leave. The Hound offered it and so did LF (the first time before she was on the run after Joffrey death orchestrated.) When Tyrion saved her from vicious beating by Trant and she still walks away saying she serves Joffrey, don’t remember exact words but at any rate, she was obviously determined to stay on at KL at that point.
Chad Brick,
Jon was most likely born out of wedlock. Polygamy was not practiced for hundred years. So he’s most likely bastard and even if by some miracle Rhaegar married Lyanna. He’s not rightful King. Just as Daeny is not rightful Queen. Right now is about who will take it by conquest. Jon neither does have an army to do it or willingness.
Sam,
Totally this.
This is a false misconception due to the way show Jon is portrayed as being naive and Ned like. I agree that show Jon is incredibly naive,.
Meanwhile, the books have shown that Jon is so much more pragmatic than Ned. Jon separated a mother from her baby. Do you ever see Ned doing that? Jon asked Stannis to spare Mance’ life and use his knowledge instead, despite Mance being a NW deserter. Ned would have lopped his head off. Jon manned the NW castles with spearwives.
Even his assassination was not because of his naivety. He knew that those men were out for his blood (He often thinks of Mel’s warnings when he sees them) and he tries to convince them of the necessity of letting the Wildlings through. He had no choice but to continue to work with them.
Book Jon is rather bright. He reads books, he learns, he experiments, he negotiates a deal with the Iron Bank despite having a deficit.
Show! Jon’s way of convincing people includes saying things like ‘I put an arrow through his heart’ and standing around while Tormund, Davos and Sansa do the talking.
I can understand why they do this though. They have to give the actors for Davos, Tormund and Sansa something to do. So they delegate fighting for Jon and talking for the others. It’s piss poor writing but needs must for a TV show.
ygritte,
I think Arya killing Sansa would be a bit extreme and one-sided. Sansa’s arc was all about survival while being manipulated by others. If LF manages to completely turn her against the Starks, following by Arya killing her, what would be the point of her character? Who will then defeat LF?
This 100%
But is not up to the writers, is it? I guess it’s up to Martin, who doesn’t care about a charcaters popularity. Or you think D&D would do their own thing?
I must have missed this happening can you point me to those places where that said ..
People keep bringing up Emilia’s acting ..
Just in this same article Sophie tells Miguel wanted her to smile..and same goes for Emilia too the writers and directors wants it..
I brought this topic above but nobody seemed to care ..
Lyric,
It would be nice if that knowledge were to give him a new lease on life, of course it will be so bittersweet because after all those years the feeling of not belonging, and then finally going on to become not only the lord of Winterfell but a king in the North, he’s achieved his dream. He’s finally looked upon as a true blue Stark. Dad would be proud. Literally achieving what as a bastard he never dreamed of but now it will be ripped away from him and once again, that feeling of not belonging will set in, after all, who is his family now? He’s never known them, and never will, except for one aunt. Granted, that’s one hell of an auntie aint it? Lol.
Unless Tyrion is a secret Targ. Please let it be so, that would be so nice for Jon. They seemed to really like each other.
This! I love Book!Jon. He’s my favorite character from the start. I love how he’s learning to be a true leader who makes difficult decisions, despite this internal pull to stay true to being “Ned’s son”. I also love Show!Jon but I think it’s mostly because of Kit Harington. 🙂
No, he did not have time to turn around and go back. If he had tried, he would have been turned into a porcupine by the people who were firing arrows all around him. Jon realized it too, you can see that by the look on his face when he realized Ramsay had trapped him in no man’s land.
Pau,
D&D said that they are moving towards the same ending and even called Sansa “the character they care about the most”, that’s why they gave her a bigger storyline, “her own storyline” in seasons 5 and 6. Considering that the show has entered the end game, I think we can safely assume that Sansa’s storyline will end in the same manner as the one of her book counterpart. She and LF will also move to the North in the books (the last Sansa chapter in AFFC) and Jon/Sansa/LF conflict will probably happen as well. I’m sure that it will end with LF’s downfall possibly with some involvement of Sansa. Whether he takes her down with him or she survives it, that’s the matter of speculation but I’m leaning towards the survival because if Jon will go North to fight the Night King, someone will have to rule WF in his place.
dragonbringer,
If you havent noticed: “I’m not sure if it is Daenerys or Emilia Clarke” – I’m well aware of that. I even defended her acting several times, saying that maybe Daenerys is “supposed” to look annoying and over-the-top. And with “everyone” I meant the less hardcore watchers and more casual watchers (those who comment on Youtube and FB).
Sam,
We need something in the North before big battle against white walkers. Sansa is looking and behaving like non Stark which is good in some situations but not so much in others. Curious to see Jon vs Sansa feud.
SerNoName,
I love show Jon too, mainly because he is all heart and Kit Harington 🙂 , but I agree with what you say, show Jon has unfortunately been dumbed down, apparently he is still naive inspite of all his experiences. I want to see him learn, to show that he can handle being a king, but I am not sure the show will make it happen.
I love the show but obviously the book characters are much more fleshed out. We get the dumbed down version in the show.
Yes, I would assume that too (that they won’t chnage her storyline in that aspect). I’m not so sure that that would be the outcome, though. Too much of a happy ending. And too predictable.
I rather be surprised 😉
Lyric:
Not his family? Every one of those Starks loved him. Ned fiercely protected and raised him, gave him a home, taught him how to fight, made him the man he is. Robb admired and enjoyed his company, Bran respected him, Arya loved him. He should turn his back on them for whom? A ‘father’ in a grave he never knew?
Why is it that people downplay the mother’s side? Jon may not be Ned’s but he is still the son of Lyanna Stark.
Should we send a petition now to D&D? #pleasedontdumbdownjonsnow2016 🙂
Geralt of Rivia,
Apart from Jon/Sansa feud, I think there will be also some LF/Sansa conflict. Sansa is currently on neither side (or partialy on both sides) and it is LF who is currently the main antagoinst in the North. That look to Sansa pretty much indicated it and her look to him could mean both “Maybe you were right?” and “I sense some trouble”.
And Sansa not being “clean Stark” is not necessarily a bad thing. This may as well mean that she is willing to get her hands dirty. Ned was killed because of honor, Robb was killed because of honor, Jon was nearly killed because of honor… maybe Sansa not being a clean Stark is the key to defeat LF.
SerNoName,
I was talking about showJon. In the books he did a lot of things as you mentioned them and showed that he might be bright. He switched babies, managed to get loan from Iron Bank, marriage alliance. He did stuff King should do but in the how he’s rather action hero. I mean it’s not bad, he has nice scenes outside of fighting but he’s rather too naive. He can be naive as he’s young but not like being too much naive. In the books he didn’t saw bertrayl and he should. We can say he’s much younger and in the show they aged them up. So he should be more smarter.
It will be interesting to see how he manages in next season with Northern politics, preparing for white walkers and for people to belive him. Also LF and Sansa.
Lord Parramandas,
I’m not sure what the point of it would be. Are they so mean as to have a character who started out as a young girl whose arc has been about getting abused and manipulated but escapes to reclaim her home only to turn evil and be killed off by another character we’re fond of, that being no less her own sister? Probably not. But there is some slight, sort of possible foreshadowing. I don’t want it to happen, that would make it really hard to rewatch all the seasons knowing this main character is going that route only to be killed off. But from what I’ve read Sansa was never in the big “5” that George outlined making it to the end. Plus hasn’t this show always had the reputation of doing this kind of thing? I just can’t see what’s Arya’s role in the end game. Just to get through her list and then show up at home to say hi guys I’m back and raid the fridge? I read an interview where it was stated Arya has turned to the dark side now as evidenced by her “Frey pies” and we should be worried for her.
They have so many characters and so little time…I think they do the best they can giving the circumstances 😉
Martin has lived and breathed the characters for decades, they can’t match that. And it’s ok. We always have the books. And now we’ll have an ending, so we can speculate how will Martin reach the same ending, which is always fun!
Lord Parramandas,
They care about Sansa the most? Hmm. Did they elaborate on why? Good, this makes me feel like she doesn’t end up taking a very bad turn then.
Lord Parramandas,
Iam not talking about your statement about where you find her annoying …thats your opinion and you can have it and I can see how show can make one feel like that..
But when you say people act cool if dany does something and people blame sansa for doing something.. Is what am against ..
And you missed all those comments about dany on same YouTube and imdb and Facebook’s.
Why go that long can we take this place here at WoTW how many talked about sansa turning to villain when compared to the talked about dany..
Game of owns had run two threads on this topic of dany becoming villain and how many threads did sansa have for that..
Even now many people are saying that writers are going for the sake of drama not believing that sansa may actually turn against jon..
Its not something that happens with dany and Emilia alone ..take any female character and them killing we have the same for arya cersei ,sandsnakes ..all seem to enjoy the killing ..
There is something wrong with how they write the female characters being badass and confident..
And if they not but want audience to question the act ..then they are doing that something that’s not happening in the books especially with dany and sansa..
This is something we must speak about …dany has been getting this treatment from season 2 and sansa from this season..
I have been speaking about this since episode 9 aired..
But no one seemed to care because as long as its a story line they don’t care or find it boring it doesn’t matter..
I’m actually hoping these two end up together. Not on the iron thrones but maybe as lord and lady of winterfell and the vale? Unlikely to happen but I would love an outcome like this for sure.
Yesssss me to
Ugh. Sorry to disagree but I’d hate it if LF would end up lording it over Winterfell when he’s the very person who orchestrated the downfall of Ned and his family. There’s even a theory that he’s the one who created the rumor that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna (he was also at RL when that happened). His comeuppance is long overdue and it should come soon.
Not Winterfell, I see Jon in Winterfell and LF on the Iron Throne married with Sansa, after Cersei’s demise. I’d like that. And then let it battle with Dany. Hopefully killing them both and leaving Tyrion on the Throne 😛
Regarding Ned he should’ve backed up Renly. It is known.
PS: I know it won’t happen like that, but a guy can dream 😛
GeekFurious,
When has she ever not been stupid?
Josla,
Littlefinger as Lord of Winterfell after he bertrayed Ned? Weird. If you like them well it’s your opinion but one of them will go out. Suspect it’s LF as we’re approaching NK and war of dawn.
Lord Parramandas,
Yes, Sansa is supposed to be the writers’ favorite character. And what they had intended in this situation was for Sansa to be in the right and Jon to be in the wrong. Jon does not listen to Sansa, so he has to almost lose the battle, only to be saved by Sansa. And then she gets no credit for this. She was supposed to be the victim and they were ready to throw Jon’s character under the bus for this. But the execution did not bring this out. I only hope they don’t continue to dumb down Jon’s character just to show that Sansa is a player.
Only a fool… would trust the showrunners. Last season they tried to play it like Jon would stay dead. Now they’re trying to convince us that Littlefinger’s schemes actually stick. It would make no sense whatsoever if Sansa and Jon really had a massive fall out. Winter is here, the Whites are coming, the Seven Kingdoms are at war, Dany will land soon (although they probably don’t know that yet) – a rift between them would mean certain failure. Even “you know nothing Jon Snow” isn’t that stupid.
He isn’t, is he??
My problem with the storyline is not that it exist but the way they present it and want us to feel about it.First of all they did a piss poor job of giving Sansa any reason to be upset at Jon when ever since they met he has done everything to accomodate her.It would be one thing if we are supposed to be annoyed at Sansa and feel like she is a bitch but they want us to think that she is in the right and has legitimate reasons and this is something other than LF manipulating her like no I’m sorry but no.
Also the more they hype it out the less I believe it.
Josla,
Ugh!! Please no. Sansa having listened to her aunt shagging LF should put her right off going there lol.
If they had Sansa marry LF it would just make it so unbelievable given her character’s storyline up to now. Forced twice into loveless marriages, one of which was to a monster? Why on earth would she marry another man she didn’t love? Sansa still wants the fairytale even though she’s now learned how to play the game.
Jenny,
I’m with you there. I’m sure LF will cause issues between Jon and Sansa but he’s dodged the consequences of his actions for six seasons, it’s bound to catch up with him in the end. Unfortunately Sansa may end up paying a high price.
I don’t follow the idea that Sansa should mistrust Jon who hasn’t done a single thing to make her mistrust him, but she might trust LF who has betrayed her already. Seems daft to me. LF will just exploit her as he does everyone.
If what they’ve written for the character so far is due to their “favoritism”, they’ve done a not-so-decent job, IMO. I’ll always love D&D for bringing us this most wonderful show but their seeming insistence to make Sansa the “bad-ass female character ever” (yey, girl power!!!) doesn’t work that well, it seems. They wanted to show her asserting herself and she did that during the council meeting in episode 5 but in episode 9 she whined about not being asked for her opinion when she was right there the whole time. They wanted her to look strong when she confronted LF about what he did to her (“selling her to the Boltons”) and even declared him as her “enemy” but then 5 episodes later, she’s asking him, “What do you want?” (She should have just told him – “You know what, we’re even now. Go get the hell out of here.”) They wanted her to be the one to “save” Jon and his army during the BotB with the Vale army but then making her withhold that information actually made a lot of the viewers question her and her motivations.
Well, that escalated quickly ! 😀
How did we get from “Sansa feels a bit of jealousy”, “Jon does not listen as well as he could”, “Sansa feels sidelined”, etc to “if Sansa stabs Jon in the back, I hope she dies”, “Sansa is a traitor to her kind”, “Jon deserves better”, etc ?
I have to confess this level of partisanship is extremely intriguing to me.
While I understand Jon is a sympathy magnet (he is the ultimate lovely underdog and who does not love an underdog ?), it does not automatically imply that anyone who dares have interests, thoughts or feelings that clash with his is a monster or inherently wrong.
Jon is a human being, a flawed human being (like anybody else). To imply that at times he makes mistakes, fails, misreads situations (like anybody else) is not an insult, in my opinion. He is not some sort of medieval, puppy-eyed, little girl fantasy-material Prince Charming with a killer smile and even killer-er abs who can do not wrong. If he were, he would be dull as mud.
We may be dealing with a bit of residual trauma : the last time some people disagreed with Jon, they ended up stabbing him not just in the back but also in the front. In a non-figurative way. So perhaps we are still in the aftermath of that, emotionally speaking.
But all conflicts of interests do not end that way !
Look at Davos and Stannis (before he murdered his daughter, of course) : these two were very often in conflict, especially in relation to the Red Woman. Yet, no backstabbing !
The writers and the actors are merely introducing the idea that there may be conflict between the siblings. That their respective interests, needs, expectations, abilities and styles of communication may clash at some point.
Conflict is not war; conflict is not a battle between two enemies. Conflict does not even rely on right and wrong.
As a matter of fact, the best kind of conflict is the kind where both sides are right.
Can’t both Jon and Sansa be right ?
Can’t Jon be right to feel so overwhelmed by all the things that were thrust upon him (a victimised sister, a murdered brother, a castle, a bunch of recently loyal lords’ nationalistic pride, an army of ice zombies ready to take over the world, his still recent death) that he can be too quick to dismiss the contributions of certain people around him, especially his sister ?
Can’t Sansa be right to feel frustrated at the idea of being sidelined and unappreciated when that is all she has experienced for the last five years and it has only brought her misery, pain, trauma, humiliation, physical and psychological violence and rape ?
Nadia,
I can see what you mean. It is a very subdued kind of conflict, for the moment.
But I have to say, I like it. I feel that, if Jon had been more openly dismissive of Sansa’s thoughts on Ramsay, he would have looked (to me) uncharasterically douche-y. And that would have been strange.
As it were, it was the right blend of incredulity and misunderstanding. I could see why he could/would not take in what his sister was telling him and why Sansa was getting annoyed by it.
Again, I believe conflict between two people who are right is the best kind of conflict.
SerNoName,
Agreed and great post! Jon’s story in ADwD was all about how much he is Ned’s son but has overcome many of the weaknesses Ned had. He was a very good LC and showed his intelligence, responsibility and shrewdness. That said, I don’t think we can say he is blameless in the assassination attempt. He did make the right decisions given the situation but he failed in communicating this to all his men. There will always be dissent when faced with change but to be moved to murder means there were some that just didn’t understand anything Jon was facing. He was naive to think everyone “got it” and was behind him.
None of this comes through in the show, sadly, and Jon does indeed seem to be dumbed down.
For me and my simple minded interpretation of the Jon /Sansa dynamic. Yes, Sansa misled Jon. Yes, Jon abandoned the battle plan. But Jon proved to Sansa that his overriding motivation, above everything else, is to protect his FAMILY. I think no matter what ambitions Sansa may have or has had, her arc has come full circle and she will never betray Jon, whether he is her 1/2 brother or her cousin. To Sansa, Jon has grown to be the man Ned Stark wanted and taught him to be. I think Sansa thinks of her father when she sees Jon.
Sam,
The problem was, to make Sansa’s cause truly sympathetic, they would have had to make Jon appear condescending towards her, I am glad they did not do that as that would have been a disservice to Jon’s character. And there never was a good explanation for why Sansa hid info from Jon. These two things hurt Sansa’s portrayal this season, imo.
I hope whatever conflict happens next season, the writers manage to bring that out without doing disservice to either character, but it will be tough to pull off.
Does anyone think Randyl Tarly will take control of the Reach and throw his support towards Cersei? Obviously before knowing that Dany is coming. Faulkner had to be brought in for something bigger than to chastise Samwell for one scene.
Lol. Can Arya please just off her?
ACME,
He is not some sort of medieval, puppy-eyed, little girl fantasy-material Prince Charming with a killer smile and even killer-er abs who can do not wrong. If he were, he would be dull as mud.
Uh yeah, he kinda is lol. Dull? Only if a girl prefers the intellectual or bad boy type or doesn’t hold any residual little girl fantasies in her big girl subconscious.
I agree with the residual trauma comment. Yep, sums it up well.
Jack Bauer 24,
I just hope Sophie chills with the interviews ten months is a long time to be annoyed haha
ACME,
The thing that bugs me about Sansa is she has contributed nothing to her cause. All she has done is go the other Houses and say they owe her their allegiance since she is a Stark. At least Jon is arguing the big picture argument, that none of them will survive if they don’t stop the White Walkers. He has also proven himself a capable leader with the Battle of the Wall.
No one stopped her from speaking up at the war council, she was speaking for herself just fine at the previous one at Castle Black, do the guys need to put her up on a pedestal or something? When she points out that she knows Ramsay best, Jon admits that she is right, and asks for her advice. All Sansa says is don’t so what he wants you to do. If she wanted to be more helpful, she should have been more specific, especially since she has several examples she can cite showing how sadistic Ramsay was. But she doesn’t. She then goes on to whine and complain about not having enough men, but offers zero solutions to the problem, all while holding back information about the Vale army. So many soldier deaths are on her hands because of this. The only thing she did was ask Littlefinger for help after he offered it to her. She didn’t get that help from some cunning political move she made herself, it was given to her on a silver platter. The only standing she has is that she is a true born, even though she was married twice.
Keep in mind, I do not blame Sansa at all for her season 1 mistakes. She was a kid who grew up in the Winterfell bubble that was perfect, she had no idea what the real world was like at that time. Now however, she should know better. It irks me that she feels she is being sidelined, after doing nothing. Do something to contribute before whining about it.
ygritte,
Ha ha ha ! I can concur about him being a great guy.
However, I stand by my (entirely subjective) assessment that this “can do no wrong” fantasy schtick is the least interesting aspect of him. I, and again it is my decidely subjective take on it, do not enjoy looking at him like Season 1 Sansa used to look at Joffrey. ^^
What makes him interesting, to me, is all the rest. All the flaws that make him undoubtedly human. Like his inability to see that he has been pretty lucky, as far as Westerosi luck goes : back in Season 1, Tyrion helps him curb his “arrogance” (“they hate me because I am better than them”) by pointing out that most of his new Wall-brothers had had much tougher lives than he ever thought possible; in this season finale, there was a reminder of that in his scene with Melisandre when he reminisced about being marginalised during family feasts and the Red Woman noted that at least he had a family… And feasts. More than the overwhelming majority of Westerosis can boast.
And the list of mishaps, mistakes and character flaws continues…
It does not prevent him from being a genuinely loveable and remarkable character. Au contraire. It makes his qualities “pop”.
I always felt that ASOIAF was somewhat incompatible with adulation. All the characters are messy, weird, flawed yet justified in their own way, on their own path. And, while it has simplified many storylines and character plots, GOT has retained that quality. There is not one bad, evil, monstrous “boss” : even Tywin has moments of beautiful humanity (with Arya, especially); Cersei has bouts of pure vulnerability which make her sympathetic; Littlefinger makes good points about life and society; etc. And there is not one pure, beautiful hero who never makes mistakes.
If anything, the sixth season has emphasised the incongruity of hero-worship : Bran found out that his father owed his life to Reed stabbing Ser Arthur from behind and that Ned had lied to his entire family for 20 years; Davos discovered that Stannis had gone so far as to murder his own child; Melisandre became very ambiguous about the Lord of Light; Tyrion kept on worrying about Daenerys’s extreme ruthless streak; Davos and Tormund discussed the dangers of blind allegiance to a heroic king; etc.
Basically, Jon has messed up in the past, messes up in the present and will mess up in the future. Like Sansa has, does and will. Like everybody else around them. ^^
It is ok. Less-than-perfect is fine.
Sansa can legitimately feel underappreciated without Jon being shown as a condescending jerk or without her being perceived as the Devil incarnate.
And we can all rest assured in the knowledge that, unless the writers decide to experiment with crack cocaine, Sansa will not stab Jon to death regardless of their conflicting interests. 😉
Vyse,
Yes thank you for this
Good god, no. LF marrying Sansa and both of them becoming Lord and Lady of Winterfell will be the absolute worst thing that could happen.
Do people really think Sansa will be any safer or will have more power if she becomes lady of winterfell with LF? Let’s not be naive. She’ll be getting Lysa’d by LF in no time. And good luck to Bran and Arya being able to come back home to Winterfell. Baelish will see them as threats and will eliminate them without Sansa’s knowledge.
And even if he doesn’t eliminate Sansa, she’d have zero power in the North. She’ll become even more isolated. So setting Sansa up with Littlefinger and against Jon would be a step backward in her character development. She said it herself, “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.” She has to listen to her own advice her because any other choice would be a disaster for her and for the Starks.
If Sansa is smart, and I think she is now, she’d help Jon keep Winterfell by eliminating Littlefinger.
Er, she rejected those offers because she didn’t trust the people offering them.
Jenny,
You’re welcome. 🙂
All of your problems there are with the writing.
The writers don’t think Sansa withholding information got those men killed. They consider her gripe about not being asked to speak at the 609 war council legitimate (hence, why Benioff repeated it). And they consider her writing a letter to Littlefinger to be a brilliant strategic stroke.
One thing that kind of caught my attention that I haven’t seen mentioned: Jon gave Sansa the Fredo forehead kiss. Of course that may well mean nothing but the director did say he drew inspiration from The Godfather for the King’s Landing scenes. I wonder if he could have snuck a little bit of foreshadowing in here with that kiss.
Aszusz,
That is what I was thinking too. Why would Jon apologize for going after Rickon? Sansa, I’m sorry but I couldn’t help myself, see I have yet to reach the point where my heart is steel. But I promise I’ll do better, next time I’ll just stand there while someone kills Bran or Arya. I won’t lift a finger to help them, I won’t fall into a trap. I mean, I’m pretty sure that Jon is not sorry for trying to save his baby brother. That is who Jon is, for better or for worse, he can’t help but play the hero in the most sincere of ways.
Lord Parramandas,
“her own storyline” in seasons 5 and 6
Sansa and Jon’s plots were married once she took over for Jeyne Poole. They are attached to each other going forward (imo). They each have their own story yes, but it became much more connected (imo) than any other main PoVs (asha and theon being the lesser example).
It just feels like Jon (and Theon to a lesser extent) “sharing” their book plots with Sansa may caused some clash between fan bases.
I didn’t like Sansa swapping out Jeyne initially (hadn’t Sansa suffered enough?) but Jon, Theon and Sansa were all very alone after season 5 so it felt good to see them each have a familiar face nearby (even if there is growing tension b/t them).
Dolorous Methuselah,
so appropriate
Sean C.,
Don’t you believe in death of the author?I do.They may intend a lot of things but I’ll judge based on what I see on screen.But yes it worries me that what they intended and what came across differed so much.Or maybe they are exagarrating how serious the conflict actually is?
Sigh………
Lets get real. Sansa will NEVER trust Littlefinger. Every time she trusts someone NOT named Stark is backfires on her.
She betrayed her sister and supported Joff, her wolf paid the price.
She betrayed her father and supported Cersei, her father was murdered
All the abuse she got at Joff’s hands? She brought that shit on herself.
She is a meaningless pawn, who has allowed herself to be used, married off, and who’s only value has been her name. Stark.
She SAW Littlefinger murder her aunt, and she still supported him. Only for him to turn around and sell her off to the Bolton’s.
And we all remember how that went.
There is literally NO WAY short of total mental retardation that Sansa will EVER trust Littlefinger again.
This is just Sophie trying to play up the importance of her character and create more season break drama. Do not let your little “what if” minds get carried away
Very true. I definitely get the sense that the writers do not care at all how many of the “Small Folk” die. That is something in the back of my mind in every battle scene in every TV Show/Book/Movie. How many ordinary people are dying in battle. How many families are going to be devastated and destroyed. Especially in GoT, when a lot of the battles are over the high lords playing their game for selfish reasons. At least in something like LOTR, they are fighting for the future of humanity.
The Hound was in the throne room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned and he’s headed north. Does he meet Arya and share this info. That would be awesome.
I have a feeling that not only does everybody posting in this thread know the show better than the actress does, they have also spend more time thinking about the (lack of) character development than she has herself.
Which would be totally in line from what I’ve seen with a lot of other actors. Just think of people’s praise of the Stannis portrayal. He knew that character so well…. Or not.
In season 7, there will be a contrived plot involving Littlefinger manipulating foolish, naive Sansa into turning on Jon, but right before it all comes to fruition, Sandor will show up and reveal LF’s betrayal of Eddard in the throne room. Sansa will turn on LF and back Jon. With the LF plot out of the way, the White Walkers attack. Jon will end up with the North, Vale, and Riverlands backing him, but he’ll be fighting a losing battle.
In the meantime, Dany will deal with Euron and Cersei. Afterward, she’ll hear about the zombie apocalypse going on in the North and take her massive army to help. Dany’s hand and new Lord of Casterly Rock, Tyrion will then broker a political marriage between Dany and Jon to reunite Westeros.
Along the way, there will be many secrets reveals, betrayals, and deaths.
I really would like this to be a misdirection and for Sansa to become Jon’s version of Petyr Baelish. Jon has to wise up and realise that to survive he has to have an element of ruthlessness. Sansa and Jon turning on Little finger would be satisfying, especially with the lords of the vale on their side. May be wishful thinking but hey ho!
And with the acting. Sophie’s blank faces and petulant, condescending tone when she speaks to Jon and Davos does nothing to make their case that Jon should listen to her or that she is being secretly brilliant.
We should not be told in interviews that Sansa is jealous of Jon. We should see Sansa being jealous of Jon. If Sansa is having second thoughts after seeing LF in a corner, we should be able to see that on her face.
Sure the writing is not great, but an actor can make something out of it when the intentions are not getting across. Dillane comes to mind, who made sense of the character despite the shitty writing.
Sophie seems to have some notions of ‘Girl power against the patriarchy’ regarding Sansa and she seems to be enacting that out in her scenes.
That was, admitedly, ridiculous. It actually made me laugh out lout when watching. ^^
However, we have to keep in mind that this is the whole point of lieges : you go to them and tell them “fight for me because I am a Stark/Lannister/Tyrell/etc” and they do. It truly is as dumb as that…
Furthermore, there is this mythos (perpetuated by Ned, as Sansa points out) that Northern lords are super-duper awesome and special. That they are somehow more loyal than anybody else (apparently, the cold make people more prone to allegiance, who would have thought ?)
Thank the gods for Davos and his grasp on reality on this one !
If I remember correctly, “don’t do what he wants you to do” is the conclusion. There is a build-up beforehand : he likes to hurt people, Rickon is as good as dead (which is, really, the most crucial yet most unbearable information), etc.
While I absolutely agree that she could have been even more forceful in her description, I felt that the hindsight she gave him was as good as it would get in terms of “outlining” Ramsay : he is a sadist who will use your emotions against you; he will not let Rickon stand in his way.
But Jon only heard the conclusion. Like Ser Pounce FTW rightly pointed out, it is almost because there was no hope that Jon could not let go. He had to give it a shot, no matter how desperate an action it was. He did not want to hear or know the horrid reality.
However, that does not invalidate the truth of Sansa’s words. Or the fact that Jon did not even think of asking her… If we were in his shoes, I believe most of us would immediately turn to the one person who we know lived with the enemy to ask for any crumb of intel that we could use to our advantage. Anything. He did not.
Of course, she could/should have spoken up. Ultimately, she did. But the fact remains : he did not think to ask her. He asked Davos, he detailed his plan to Tormund. But Sansa… Nope. That is interesting.
Hmm… On that front, we might have to agree to disagree.
If we absolutely have to blame someone else than Ramsay for the deaths of Jon’s troops, I am afraid we might have to broaden the scope beyond Sansa.
– Sansa : did not tell Jon about the Vale = responsible;
– Jon : did not abide by his own battle plan, placed his second-in-command (Davos) in the position of either sacrificing him (Jon) or precipitating the charge = responsible;
– Davos : chose to hurry the charge and meet Ramsay’s troops in the middle of the field instead of 3/4 up the way (as was originally planned and desired) to save his general thereby rendering all the preparation (trenches, troops placements) moot = responsible.
In my opinion, either all three have “blood on their hands” or none.
Again, I am afraid this is how lieges work. ^^
Lyanna Mormont did not do anything more than Sansa : she listened to the arguments presented to her and, once she was convinced, she sent ravens to her 62 Bear Men and they showed up… Not because they think Lyanna is the best thing since sliced bread or because she saved their bottoms in previous battles (poor baby, she has only been able to walk for a couple of years ^^), but because she was born a Mormont, she is the only one left, and Mormont men do as Mormonts say.
She did not fight on the battlefield; she did not devise a battle plan. She sent letters. Because it is her birthright.
Yet, when she does it, she is a supernova of badassery. When Sansa does it, it is easy and makes her undeserving.
What is the difference ? Is it the frown ? Is it the ‘tude ? Granted, her behaviour is as bossy as it gets and it is both great and adorable in equal measures. But it is a difference in style, not substance. 😉
Very true, Sophie Turner is, in the end, a 20 year old ACTRESS, (and not even a particuarly good one, Maisie is a FAR better acress) they aint brain surgeons.
Jaime in the story as we know it is actually probably a split from the Tyrion outline character. He’s clearly going to become more disillusioned with the Lannisters (it’s already happening), and he’s the one who has more of a “connection” to the Stark girls, by trying to fulfill his oath to protect them. I think story Jaime and Tyrion are BOTH the original outline Tyrion character, to be honest with you, which is really interesting. The one part that seems to have been excised completely is the love triangle rivalry thing with Jon-Arya-Tyrion, because I can’t see any permutation of that happening at all (Whether it’s Jon-Arya-Tyrion, Jon-Arya-Jaime, Jon-Sansa-Tyrion/Jaime, etc. Doesn’t seem to be happening). But yeah, Jaime in the show/books is not Jaime in the outline at all – Cersei is.
I am not sure which is more over dramatic..the actors hyping up “tension” or some of our responses to it lol
Tension between them does not = Darth Sansa laughing manically while dancing with Littlefinger over Jon’s dead body because she has POWAH. What we will see are two people with a LOT of baggage on a bumpy, sometimes messy path to figuring out how to trust and work with each other.
ygritte,
I’m not sure why people are assuming that I am suggesting that Jon try to bond with Dany. I never said that. I just said that he doesn’t deserve or need the drama swirling around the Starks. He is a grown man with his freedom now. He can create a family of his own. I think it would be the best decision for him.
BranTheBlessed,
Yes, that is what I said. If you have a problem with it, you have a problem with it. And I never suggested that he try to bond with his biological father’s family. I feel it is best if he strikes out on his own and just create his own family. He doesn’t need these people and this drama seems like it is more trouble than it is worth.
I just wanted to clear the air and spread the truth on something. Sophie never said that Jon was sexist. When I read that same WotW article that all of you read, which practically said Sophie called Jon sexist, I went off in that thread and was ridiculously angry. But later I read the original article and realized that what WotW said Sophie said and what Sophie actually said were significantly different from each other. Here’s the WotW link, and from inside that article you can find the original “Making Game of Thrones” link.
Here’s what the original article said, the closest it came to anything remotely “sexist.” And note the leading question is already asking Sophie to find some reason to blame Jon.
I would say that not all women are viewed as less capable, but I would agree that women like Sansa might automatically be viewed as less capable than men with similar lack of experience and training. I would wholeheartedly agree that patriarchy is real in Westeros, and I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. Truly, I don’t find anything that inflammatory in her actual quote.
Question for book readers: Is it a commonly known fact that JS was born in the south? If so, why is he called Jon Snow and not Jon Sand? I was surprised at first to hear LF say to Sansa “Would the northerners rally behind a trueborn Stark or a bastard born in the south?” I thought he was alluding to the fact that he was born at TOJ which he couldn’t have known, thus a plot hole. I know Ned brought him back with him after the war but was he supposed to have been fighting in the south?
ACME,
My Lord/My Lady, it’s really a pleasure (and quite reassuring) to read such an eloquent and nuanced post… Particularly after so much vitriol in this thread!
I wonder whether LF has plan to undermine Jon’s legitimacy as King in the North by revealing his true parentage. I fail to see which evidences he could produce to support that though. But maybe the conflict between Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger goes in that direction rather than Sansa and LF pulling a “for the watch” moment on Jon, as many in here seem to suggest.
As someone who isn’t a fan of Dany, it really comes down to 6 seasons (well, more like 5) of posturing and hero worship that drags her down for me.
I wouldn’t deny she has had a horrid go of things. It hasn’t been smooth sailing for her and she has built a team, with mostly her dragons to thank, that is solid and smart. Her entitlement to the throne is what has always made it hard for me to take her seriously or even give a shit. The “I will take what is mine…” statement, that we have heard every season multiple times in some variation, is cringe-worthy and something said by a conqueror and not a ruler. The throne isn’t hers. It was her families for a time and was over-thrown. Now she has to do the same. Arriving on the shores, with a horde of barbaric Dothraki (who I am sure will freak the hell out of the “common” folk) and thinking that everyone is going to be so quick and excited to see another Targaryen in power is foolish. But, who cares what the people want. Westeros will probably never be a democracy and with all Dany’s talk about leaving the world a better place and changing how things are done, she is quick to talk about a political marriage. As if she needs to marry up to bring peace or garner respect. “Girl power” hits a brick wall.
I think she has been an incredible force in liberating Meereen but this is also a woman who will burn cities to the ground if they don’t bend the knee. Tyrion may tell her there is “another way” but she has tunnel vision. The reward at the end is the iron throne and it doesn’t matter what collateral damage there is to get there.
Simply, I just don’t find her interesting. I think she has good intentions. I think she wants to do the right thing. I think, as long as she doesn’t become her Dad, she would be a good “ruler” but that doesn’t mean I find myself rooting for her.
I am not a huge fan of Emilia Clark’s acting. She has definitely improved for me over the seasons and, my God, she is beautiful but I think Dany has zero charisma. Her moments of epic speeches, rallying the troops, are almost comical. Lady Lyanna Mormont has more command and presence. When I see a crafty and clever characters like Tyrion being so entranced, not just supportive, it makes me give them the side-eye. Really?
Her “second coming” arc is just tiresome for me. I did like her a lot more this past season because there was a lot of movement than any previous but I feel like her whole story line is transparent in its direction.
So, there is my long as hell (sorry about that) reasoning as to why I am not a Dany fan. Like I mentioned, I have warmed to her more but after 6 seasons I can’t see myself suddenly so invested in her story that it would trump any of the others.
Anything below the North is “the South” within the context of Westeros (unless you’re the Free Folk, as Jon learned). Jon is known to have been born in the South.
As far as bastard names go, the show has never gotten into the rules around this. From the books:
In the books, King Robert has a number of bastards distributed around, not just Gendry. One these, Mya, was born and raised in the Vale, and is thus known as Mya Stone, even though her father was a Stormlander and her mother a peasant. Another of Robert’s bastards, sired with a Reach noblewoman, was raised at Storm’s End, and is thus known as Edric Storm.
Likewise, with the old Targaryen king Aegon IV (the Unworthy), his several bastards had differing surnames based on where the kids were raised/where their mothers were from.
So Jon, having been raised from childhood to manhood in the North, is Jon Snow, regardless of where he was born.
King in the Midwest,
It is interesting about LF. Maybe he knows Jon’s father is Rhaegar? He knows about the abduction. I could see him piecing it together from there.
Sean C., Thanks, that’s a more concise answer.
Sean C.,
Thanks, makes sense.
Tycho Nestoris,
Thank you!
Yes, Sansa is one of the producer’s favorite. Weiss, I think. The other’s favorite is Tyrion. However, since GRRM originally planned
From George’s plan: “Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.”
Ginevra,
My problem with that statement was that everything we have seen from Jon so far in books and show tells us that he does not conform to patriarchal views.
Ginevra,
By the same token
The published books went in a different direction though…
Completely agree about Thank the Gods for Davos. He is one of the most pragmatic characters on the show. The difference with Sansa in S6 is that the Starks are out of power in the North, and are technically rebelling. The Boltons are the legal rulers of the North and Winterfell. In that scenario you need a stronger argument than just, “You swore an oath to my family” when you’re family’s power is legally destroyed and gone. She is asking all the lords to once again rebel against the crown (after they were defeated), and the only reason she gives is you swore an oath to my out of power family.
I strongly disagree here. she can’t be both a strong character, and then complain she isn’t being directly asked. It could have been that Jon and Company were too focused on just the tactics, and didn’t think to ask her. That was a mistake. However, that doesn’t excuse her whining like a little brat, instead of just being an adult, and speaking up. She spoke in vague generalities when she could have cited several concrete examples. Complete failure on her part.
You have a point, Jon and Davos are partly responsible. I don’t blame them as much since they made heat in the moment, in the middle of the battle, emotional decisions. While they were bad choices, at least it was in that context. Sansa withheld vital information about an additional huge army for no good reason, while at the same time whining about not having enough men, and offering no suggestions on how to proceed.
Once again, that is because Sansa, and the Starks are out of power. If the Starks were still in power legally, and in reality I would agree with you. You need to say more than just you swore an oath to my now completely out of power family. Legally, the Starks are no longer liege lords to the Northern Houses. So it is a difference in substance. You would be right if Sansa was in power at that moment, but she wasn’t. Lyanna Mormont is the legal ruler of House Mormont and Bear Island. Big difference.
Ginevra,
And D&D have said many of the same things Sophie has, such as that Jon was ignoring Sansa at the 609 council (which doesn’t make sense, but there you go).
ACME,
This!!!
SerNoName,
I actually support both, my complaint is what’;s said in the interview does not match what I and many see.
That look when her eyes met LF was a oh shit look not yeah I agree look.
SerNoName,
I do think there is something to this. Sophie Turner’s acting choices around the character of Jon are strange to me. She, the actress, seems to legitimately believe that Jon Snow has done something wrong to Sansa and slighted Sansa in some way and has chosen to portray it this way. You’re not the first I’ve seen in the comments here, or in reviews for past episodes to point out the peculiar tact Sophie has sometimes chosen for Sansa in scenes with Jon. I’m not getting this from the scripts. I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be. Yes, Benioff and some of the other cast wondered about Jon’s claim and if Sansa has a stronger one….but Sophie Turner is taking it to the extreme. Her statements are contradicting what is being portrayed in the writing and acting. I don’t really understand where her thinking is coming from.
I will not say she is a bad actress, because who am I. But I do think her acting choices in scenes with Jon Snow are contributing to some of this confusion. I don’t know if she is reading what is supposed to be happening between Jon/Sansa correctly or not. Honestly, my guess is no, she is not reading it correctly and it’s not supposed to be as bad between them as she is stating and portraying it. But I guess we’ll find out for sure in season 7.
In the very beginning yeah selfish,naive etc, she’s well past that.
I see her who up front and center learned what fighting honorably and with scruples got her family and it wasn’t good.
She will be the Stark who fights for family, but damned the honor and fuck the scruples; her family died that way. She’ll do what is needed to make sure the house survives, caring little about her honor, as it’s already shit if the Bravosi play is moving around.
Che,
Perfectly said.
Sansa handled it all rather poorly, and it’s hard to give her too much credit for what has happened.
Yes, Jon blew his battle plan on an impulsive rush to save his brother. That’s on him, if somewhat understandable. But Sansa rejected an offer of that army at the outset, when it would have made a greater difference – imagine how many houses would have signed on board if Jon could have said “Oh, yes, we also have the entire Vale Army with us.” In any case, the credit is really due to Littlefinger; the army is there because of his interests, not her manipulations. She didn’t pay for it or lead it.
And it’s not clear at all that Sansa is more deserving of the title, or would do a good job of it. If she’s no longer the simpering spoiled princess she was, she’s not….well, she’s not Dany or Yara or Margaery, either. She’s an 18 year old with no record of running anything, and with a rather poor sense of politics in the North. Jon, on the other hand…well, you’ve covered it already.
These interviews are definitely weird and don’t seem to jive with what we actually see on screen. I can see other people saw it differently, but in the coronation scene, all I saw was Sansa happy for Jon and smiling at him when it happened, then looking worried when she saw Littlefinger sulking in the corner. It didn’t look to me like the look of a person disappointed that Jon got the recognition and not her.
Anyway, I still don’t see how there is time for intra-Stark conflict. When the real war begins, there definitely is not. That probably consumes all of season 8. That gives us 7 episodes next season and they need to cover a lot of stuff in King’s Landing and the Narrow Sea. Arya and Bran are returning, which throws a huge wrench in any conflict with Jon and Sansa as the central characters, especially Bran because 1) he’s actually the Lord of Winterfell and 2) he knows what’s going on and is going to tell them and that will consume all other concerns.
As for the arguments that it isn’t realistic that the Starks alone never have within-family fights, sure, but now?! They can fight among themselves five years from now after A Dream of Spring when the war is over. With Cersei on the Iron Throne and winter here, the North is going to come together. It’s when the fighting is over and it comes time to divy up the spoils that Winterfell can turn into King’s Landing North. Also, the Starks have fought among themselves. Robb and Cat fought over who Robb would marry and what to do with Jaime as a prisoner. Together, those things probably lost the war and got them both murdered. But it took 21 episodes for that to come to fruition! We don’t have 21 episodes.
If I remember correctly, there was an added element to the whole thing : most Northern houses (with the exceptions of the Umbers, the Karstarks and another one I think) had not declared for the Boltons. While chosen by the Crown, Roose and Ramsay had not gained the allegiance of the overwhelming majority of the Northern lords, due to Roose’s involvement in the Red Wedding (that is why they were so eager for a partly-Stark heir).
This quasi-universal refusal to bend the knee to the Boltons could very easily have been interpreted as an implied, continued allegiance to the Starks. That is how Sansa (mainly driven by the overly-romantic view of the North her father defended) understood the situation.
What she had not foreseen was that most Northern lords would choose door number three : no allegiance to the Boltons, no allegiance to the Starks, no allegiance to no one at all, get off my lawn ! ^^
“Rickon is dead” is not vague, in my mind. It is hard, close to impossible maybe even, to accept as a concept but it is far from vague.
I am not certain I see what concrete examples would have been useful : a point-by-point description of one of the rapes ? Of one of the beatings ?
I am going to extrapolate here (unfortunately, the show forces me to, in this instance) but I assume that Jon and Sansa have talked about what they have gone through during the past five years. Though not shown on screen, I imagine Jon told Sansa he was killed (that must have been an interesting conversation… :P) and Sansa told Jon what was done to her at Winterfell. In my mind, Jon knew Ramsay was a violent rapist and a killer. I do not think Sansa needed to reinforce that point.
However, what Jon may not have fully grasped until the very last second (and what Sansa tried to tell him) was how much of a tunnel-vision sadist Ramsay truly was, the unique pleasure he took in breaking people to his will, how obsessed he was with being “legitimate” and how, as a result, he would kill Rickon no matter what. Even if it was the last thing he would do.
Again, I am not presuming Jon and Co. did not have good reasons to be otherwise preoccupied. I am not saying he did not ask for Sansa’s input out of disdain or contempt. I am merely stating he did not ask for it even though it was a rather obvious approach.
And when she volunteered the info, he could not stomach the most poignant part of it (which was both perfectly understandable and a shame) and dismissed the rest with a “thanks, Captain Obvious”.
She was right in her assessment of the situation and he had good reasons not to want to hear it. There truly is not need for one of them to be the villain of the piece. Ramsay is more than enough in this department.
Did she know the Vale was coming ? If so, when did she find out ?
That dead horse has been beaten to the point where it does not even resemble a horse anymore ^^
The point I was trying to make about the parallel between Sansa and Lyanna Mormont is that both mobilised their lieges. Sansa called on the Vale after Littlefinger said it was at her disposal, implying they had (unofficially) declared for her. Like the 62 fierce warriors of Bear Island are pledged to the Mormonts.
Both Sansa and Lyanna called on their lieges. No more, no less. 😉
grailking, A dornish Tyrell,
It will be lady, thank you very much 😉
Passions run high, which is always fun. It is all to be taken with a grain of salt anyway ^^
Kells,
It sums up my take on her as well ! I like her; she seems very well meaning. But her ruthless streak is at times worrying and so is her sense of “the throne is mine because… My daddy sat on it while he watched people burn ?”
Dragons are a great trump card but they can get a bit repetitive after a while ^^
OT Miguel Sapochnik twitted this https://twitter.com/MigSapochnik/status/748912508392484864
So I guess he implies that he may be back for S08? Fingers crossed.
Certainly Jon goes against the patriarchal views more than most Westerosi men, much more. But this different Sophie quote takes it from being inflammatory and ridiculous to possibly incorrect or possibly a different opinion.
I’m not 100% certain that Jon won’t end up with __. Obviously some changes have been made, as would be true of any novel. Some items have been tweaked, as was said earlier about the Lannister sibling interchanges for their roles and the Tyrion-Ramsay interchanges. But also obviously, some things outlined in this plan, such as R + L = J and the coming-of-age tales of five central characters, have come to pass. There is no way that the quote I’ve given can happen exactly, but I wouldn’t easily discount the parts of the quote that could still be very much true, especially the parts that seem to be heavily foreshadowed at this point and time! (I’m not saying it is a foregone conclusion, just that the plan lends credence to that possibility.)
dragonbringer,
https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4q24ti/spoilers_main_astounding_overdue_insight_into/
Great point. I could see a lot of houses like Manderly, Glover, and Cerwyn pledging to join Jon and Sansa if they knew the Vale was backing them.
ACME,
“Rickon is dead” is not vague, in my mind.
I agree with most of what you wrote but the above is contradictory to when Sansa speaks to Jon in 6.04. It’s at like ~44 secs…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLF505fTRnY
Sansa: A monster has taken our brother and our home. We have to save them both.
I really wish Sansa had just used Jon as bait and then waited with LF for Ramsay to fall into the trap. The way it played out on screen is just so convoluted (imo).
It’s interesting to read all the debate about Jon and Sansa. Whatever the viewpoint, it seems pretty clear from the info we have that, like it or not, there will be issues in season 7. That’s not really surprising as LF is present!!
What intrigues me more is Dany. She is the one character I’ve never worried for. The show ensures we worry for all the others but not her. Simply for that reason, I would not be at all surprised if Dany is part of the bittersweet ending. For Dany to sit the Iron throne at the end is far too cliche and obvious.
Btw, has anyone seen Iain Glen’s interview? Love that man hee hee.
http://tvzap.kataweb.it/news/174822/game-of-thrones-iain-glen-vorrei-che-jorah-morisse-facendo-lamore-con-daenerys/?ref=HRESS-27#174414=1
Sean C.,
I would agree that Jon didn’t take what Sansa said to heart about not doing exactly what Ramsay told her to do. Jon wasn’t wrong to follow Rickon, but Jon was wholeheartedly wrong in going toward Ramsay after Rickon was definitely dead – that was exactly what Ramsay wanted Jon to do and exactly what Sansa had warned him against.
But as Kit has said, Sansa didn’t give him a strong reason to believe her in the way she said it, and I think the producers would admit that same thing, as well. Had Sansa not been bitchy about Jon not being sensitive enough to ask her opinion and had she said, “I think that you need to know that I’ve seen many of the world’s most manipulative players in KL. I know how they think. I know how they operate. And Ramsay takes the cake and could beat any of them at their games. While you’re in the battle, the very best thing you can do is constantly ask yourself, before doing anything, ‘Is this what Ramsay wants? Is this playing into his trap?'”
If she’d phrased it that way and if Jon had heeded her advice, hundreds of Wildlings would still be alive.
God, some of y’alls arms are going to pop out of their sockets for how hard you’re reaching to discredit and insult Sophie Turner, my lord.
It’s all post-season hype. They’re trying to plant conflict in the audience’s mind so they have something to come back for next season. Lo’ and behold: it’s working because no one will shut up about it!
Sansa’s glance to Littlefinger at the end of this season would not be interpreted as anything but “suspicious” or “wary” had it not been for D&D/Liam/Kit/Sophie’s after-episode commentary. If you dove into the first episode of season 7, you wouldn’t be thinking of inter-Stark conflict, you’d be seeing Littlefinger as the big threat, not Sansa trying to oppose Jon.
Rhaenys Stark,
That’s certainly the inference.
Halfman,
Thank the Old Gods and the New.
It’s not vague but it’s not useful either. Nor is the fact that Ramsey was sadistic, so, no, stories about beatings or rape are not helpful either.
Actually, this is the most useful information Jon could have gotten (the most useful I’ve seen about the situation!), especially if it had been shared during the council so people not emotionally connected to Rickon could have considered it when planning their strategy. However, “Rickon is already dead” does not even begin to convey any of this and doesn’t motivate anyone to do anything differently, especially when Rickon is standing right in front of you, very much alive. Pity these words weren’t in the script 🙁
Ultimately I think the set up for this story line was a disaster. Sansa doesn’t look like she contributed very much, Jon looks very appreciative of all she did and the last scene wasn’t successful in conveying Sansa’s lingering resentment which seems to be destined to become a bigger deal next season. So all the actors and directors explaining what’s going on seems to be out of left field. Especially since fans really don’t want to hear about Starks fighting each other.
stop crapping on sophie/sansa 2016,
I think I wasn’t paying attention to Sansa before listening the interviews, but afterwards I notice she didn’t cheer like Lyanna and the rest of Northerners. She wasn’t happy. Still, I don’t expect a war between Jon and Sansa. I actually think Littlefinger will die next season.
stop crapping on sophie/sansa 2016,
Which is why their comments is more annoying than anything because they seem to go out their way to sell this conflict to fans. If this is their way of hyping the upcoming season, then I don’t think they’re doing it right because people are getting more and more annoyed at Sansa now.
Ser Pounce FTW,
I felt their exchange was pretty well-written. For two people who do not understand each other ^^
To me, there are two moments that really show a break in communication. The first is when Jon feels insulted by Sansa and he revendicates his military accomplishments. There, he starts getting upset and is no longer as willing to listen as he was before. The second is when she tells him why Rickon is beyond saving. That, he does not want to hear and it makes him angrier still.
After that, it is two frustrated people not paying real attention to each other.
Again, nobody’s fault. Just two persons who, under duress, find it difficult to have a meaningful conversation. Sansa does not word her ideas with enough finesse so as not to anger her brother and Jon struggles to take in some of the things she conveys.
If you can cite occasions where GoT has deliberately lied in these Inside-the-Episode type videos just to generate hype and make people excited about the next episode or season, then I might believe that you aren’t pulling this idea from nowhere to suit what you want to believe. I’ve always found these videos as clarifying their intent rather than befuddling it. Though it is true that they may include a comment here or there from a misguided and incorrect actor or actress, they haven’t had an entire video (see King in the North) that is full of such shit.
I do recall that last season Kit and eventually Carice deliberately lied about Jon not coming back and not bringing Jon back, always in interviews that weren’t official GoT videos, IIRC, though. The producers, however, kept singing the same song over and over and over, that Jon was dead, deader than dead. And he was. So that would have been the truth. They left out the part that he would be brought back to life. And they didn’t necessarily do that to make people want to watch Season 6 more. In fact, no Snow likely made the casual viewer want to watch less since Snow is a fan favorite.
I agree. I would have added that Sansa begins the conversation as accusatory, which puts Jon on the defensive from the very beginning, just before you start quoting:
And the Rickon thing was especially infuriating since freeing Rickon is how Sansa convinces Jon to fight in the first place, and now she admits that is an impossible task:
And lastly, just after your quote, Sansa infuriates the audience by holding all the cards and accusing the person she doesn’t share her hand with, at all, of not making the most informed decisions:
And Sansa never answers that very direct question.
People talk about the Sansamosity not being clearly set up in Episode 10, and they’d be right. It was clearly set up in Episode 9. Episode 10 gives us a little bit of false hope that the Sansamosity is resolved – until we see the King in the North speech, that is, where it is difficult to read Sansa. I’m sure that’s why the producers have used the videos to clarify how we should be reading Sansa.
ghost of winterfell,
From my perspective there’s no reason to dumb down Jon to show Sansa as a player.
I think that Godwoods scene where he tells her his dreams and she tells LF he’s changed alliances before along with who would / should the North follow line was all we need to know how next year will go.
She now knows along with the murder of her Aunt, that he plans to cause a riff between Jon and her to get Winterfell , the North and the Iron Throne.
At the rampart with Jon, she’s supportive and pleased ( there is symbolism in the separation) the hall is the area where many have mixed feelings.
I asked my wife what she thought and she said Sansa was fine and supportive for Jon even after Lyanna’s speech, she noticed her face changed with Glover until Jon looked to her. Her reaction to LF eyes meeting Sansa was he smirking like he can use this to an advantage and Sansa’s was like mine; she felt Sansa was relaying an oh shit moment as she just made LF an enemy.
9 months to go.
One of the problems, I think, is that the writers (and Sophie) have been hyping up the “girl power” thing for Sansa but it’s not coming across as that. You’re right in that she actually came off petulant and whiny in her conversations with men (council meetings, North recruitment campaign, with Jon). Compare that to how Yara talked to the men campaigning for her queenship. I know those are two different situations but it shows that you can be forceful and strong without having to whine about not being asked/listened to.
I won’t blame everything on Sophie though. She’s actually grown a lot, acting-wise (she did really well in season 5 while in “captivity”). Maybe it has something to do with the direction, too. The writing didn’t help, either (one episode she’s telling Jon they have to save Rickon and then 4 episodes later, she’s saying he’s already dead so “don’t bother with him anymore”). They’ve given her the big “girl power” moments (riding in with the Vale army, feeding Ramsay to his hounds) but unfortunately, those are not enough to make the audience see her as this triumphant, strong woman. In fact, the whole thing feels forced.
I loved that scene between Jon and Sansa. I also noticed how they started separated by a post. There is clearly a divide between them. And then, Jon approached her and said that they need to trust each other. It seemed to me that it’s a way of showing us they’re both willing to make it work together. (Hence, I’m baffled at Sophie’s statement that Sansa is frustrated about that because it’s all about her having to trust Jon and not about him trusting her. That didn’t come across like that at all!)
Must you remind us of this? LOL 🙂
Markus Stark,
This. Littlefinger was the only one sticking up for Sansa and telling her to give her a chance.
There is a whole lot of “f-it” going on while working the Friday before a major holiday. I spent all afternoon watching reaction videos on Youtube. I generally don’t watch too many of them but they are kind of fun sometimes. There are a lot of good ones for the finale. I love how everyone pretty much has the same reaction to Arya taking the face off. Even those suspecting the girl is Arya and expect it have a lot of cheering and fist pumping. I just found this gal’s and her reaction and emotions for the ToJ scene pretty much matched mine… and I’m a middle-aged male:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm8SOYT7EBo
grailking,
This was my understanding of that scene when I watched it as well. Now after all the interviews and comments I see here, I am not sure!
orange,
My question is, if she is playing it wrong, wouldn’t the director guide her to the correct tone and expressions so that it all comes out as written?
Firannion,
EXACTLY. Even Arya, I feel like Arya would loose her shit at Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale…or for any reason what so ever, allowing Sansa to be a brat. House Stark is strong and solid and loyal. And if Sansa doesn’t want to be that, she can go. It is a time of war, the greatest war. And Jon is the one to lead them. A young woman, no matter how smart, can’t rule the North during it’s most dangerous time…you have to have a warrior who knows the danger. If she does anything ot get Jon in danger, she is worse than Theon, whom she was scolding for betrayal.
Ginevra,
the issue is he does. and offers her Lady of W, and already was having Lord’s room made up for her. She called him a Stark. She said, no you take it. I think it is not the viewers fault, for seeing this oddly, bc there seems to be a strange thing happening that isn’t being explained.
KingSnow!LordCrow,
I would love for LF to go back to KL and play that hand. If anyone can. He can. I’d love for LF to try to get on team dany too.
I like Sophie but I would not read too much into what she has to say about the plot. Let’s remember she is one of the cast members who actually believed Jon was dead and wrote a long letter to Kit to say goodbye.. I mean…actors are nice and all but let’s not believe they always have the best insights on plots or even the characters that they play. It’s sad but true…Also she might just be talking bullshit, she comes across as a jokester in her interviews.
ManderlyPieCompany,
I think it’s also the continued story of idiots. All of these people BUT Jon and Bran…have been living in a bubble. Sansa, despite being told, does not grasp the danger that is coming, that all of this is futile. And if she did, if LF did…if they had any clue, they would pick up a sword and bend the knee. Jon is the only one that can lead the North…the first line of the defense….in a time of war. If Sansa doesn’t get on board, someone give her to Bear Island, set her straight.
Unrelated, but this has been bugging me….where the heck do the dragons stop to rest? Or are they like albatrosses that can sleep on the wing? Because those boats aren’t big enough.
You are absolutely right about the beginning of the tirade. It is accusatory.
However, I felt that Jon took it pretty philosophically : since it was not completely uncalled-for, he seemed to take in the criticism and move forward with “you’re right”.
Weirdly enough, that bit did not infuriate me. I felt like it was a conclusion Sansa had reached rather recently, possibly even that very day.
During the confrontation between Jon/Sansa and Ramsay, the latter kept on obsessively repeating the word “bastard” (how Alliser of him !), highlighting the legitimacy issue. That, plus Shaggydog’s head…
I do not believe there was any trick on Sansa’s part. She seemed genuine when she talked about saving both Winterfell and their baby brother after receiving the inflammatory letter and equally genuine when she, several weeks/months later and with difficulty, admitted Rickon was as good as dead in Ramsay’s hands.
Granted, that could have been addressed head on, with Jon asking why she had given up on Rickon and Sansa explaining her thought process… It probably would have been more efficient (and less ambiguous). However, a change of heart and opinion does not seem at all beyond reason to me.
That, again, did not infuriate me (maybe I have a high infuriation threshhold ^^) as much as it baffled me a bit.
She clearly does not seem to want to use Jon as bait; otherwise, she would have encouraged him to go with however few men he had; but she does not mention the possibility of Vale… I can only hope it will be readdressed in the future, in greater details.
It is such a big omission, such a blatant oddity, I can only assume it might snowball into a bigger plot point.
Sansanimosity ? Neat ! 😀
The setup in Episode 10 is, I believe, not so much for a “Jon vs. Sansa” fight but for a “Sansa vs. the overall situation” conflict.
The writers made a point of having Jon remind the audience that the intervention of the Vale was decisive and that she is responsible for it. This private acknowledgement by Jon is clearly in contrast with the public proclamation by the Northern lords of Jon as the sole victor of the Battle and the sole hero in the North.
There is, in my opinion, a vague sense of “doom” permeating the entire “KITN” scene : not just because it was a distinct copy of the same scene five years prior with Robb (and both the audience and the Stark siblings know all too well how that ended up), but also because, in my opinion, it felt like a “highjacking” so to speak.
Jon wants to move past the Battle and make the lords pay attention to what is going on beyond the wall. He is moving forward. Meanwhile, the lords are all about the past : the Red Wedding, going back to being independent, the trauma of the war of five kings, etc. Jon is presented as the second coming of Robb and he does not have a single say in the matter.
And in the process of reliving their glorious past, the lords completely forget Sansa and her involvement.
If bone of contention there is between the siblings, it will be about this, I believe.
Jon is a nice enough guy that he will try to accommodate his lieges’ nostalgia and do what is expected of him, even though it is not his calling (it is, of course, my highly subjective take on him) and he would rather focus his eyes on the Wall.
Since the lords appear to want to treat Sansa as a footnote, Jon may find himself pulled in that direction which would, of course, frustrate his sister.
Basically, I doubt the writers will have a full-on War of the Starks, based solely on the siblings’ animosity. There is too little to work with here, as it stands.
They seem to have positioned the Northern lords as unknowing catalysts (and Littlefinger as a very knowing one, of course) of a Sansa-uprising in which she will fight against them and their wishes to defend her own interests and views.
That could be fun ! ^^
Pigeon,
They spread out their wings and float on the water to snooze. #makingthisshitupasigo
Off another topic, I love Cersei’s Beautiful Death poster, http://beautifuldeath.com/. The way that her tiny dress emblems change to green skulls and her green flaming crown rising from the flames of the sept are perfection! And the seven-pointed star on the forehead of the largest skull, wow.
It’s not the actress, but rather the writing and/or direction which must be at fault whenever a scene’s implication is so obtuse it must be explicated at length by all and sundry after it has aired. I’ll admit I’m disappointed in Sansa’s (d)evolution as a character; however my commentary should not be taken as criticism of Sophie Turner who is excellent. Like Arya, we should be capable by now of differentiating between the character on the stage and the actress who plays her!
I’m not sure what it will take to make Sansa open her eyes. She assumes she’s been reborn as a player, however the reality is she’s just doing what she’s always done, namely siding with one psychopath or another — who is basically always the one playing her — against her own family. Sadly, it’s been foreshadowed in both the books and the screenplay that Sansa not only has a talent for ‘sewing,’ she’s also adept at ‘sowing’ — sowing discord in the Stark family! Lady Mormont’s skepticism was spot-on: ‘Last I heard you were a Bolton…or Lannister…I’ve heard conflicting reports…’ to which Sansa haughtily replied, ‘I will always be a Stark,’ immediately eclipsed by Lyanna’s pithy retort, ‘If you say so…’ Sansa has to stop saying she’s a Stark, and start acting like one– and that doesn’t mean merely being stubborn and stupid (in LF’s words ‘quick tempers, slow minds’), it means being loyal to the pack and putting their collective needs above ones own. While she has a direwolf embroidered over her heart, is that what’s really in her heart once the dress is removed? Some have said her character has become Catelyn 2.0, but that would be unfair to Catelyn. At least Catelyn was motivated by her family in everything she did (granted, with the exception of Jon), and was willing to risk everything for that family.
Should Sansa continue her destructive habit of clinging to and emulating psychopaths, undermining her family, I expect Arya to intervene. Unlike Jon, Arya is now an expert on ‘the lying game’ and being ‘no-one’ she’s capable of taking alternate perspectives and seeing through facades on a higher order than her sister, so Sansa ought not to try it on her. Interestingly, there’s foreshadowing for this in the whole meta- Braavos ‘play-within-a-play’ historical retelling, which showed how far Arya has come in being able to differentiate the masks people wear vs. their underlying intent (who better to do this than one of the faceless?). Significantly, she was able to put aside her antipathy for Cersei and see the goodness in the actress playing her, Lady Crane, an act of insight and mercy which ended up saving her life. On the other hand, she was also able to put aside her instinctive identification with family and see through ‘the fake Sansa’ — just how much metaphorical foreshadowing should we be reading into that line ‘Be careful of that one; she wants you dead!’? And, like the actress, Sansa is envious and resentful of someone else’s accomplishments, someone who she might perceive as standing in the way of her ambitions. The scene where the Sansa actress stands in the wings staring at Lady Crane as she’s being celebrated by the crowd has uncomfortable echoes of Jon’s election to King in the North. That’s what Sansa is missing: it’s an election, not a birthright.
It appears that Sansa has taken Littlefinger’s advice to keep ones enemies confused so that they never know who you are or what you may do next. On the basis of her conceit of omission (not disclosing her plans to Jon and the rest timeously was undoubtedly a conceit of omission, regardless of whether or not one believes her (in)actions to be a deliberate commission of deceit), one may perhaps extrapolate that Sansa is treating her family as the enemy, and conversely treating her real enemy as family (fittingly she and Littlefinger masquerade as father and daughter at the Eyrie). There’s nothing wrong with learning to ‘play the game’ and being more politically savvy, however does she really have to play the game against her own family? That’s the disturbing thing about this character, and it’s not an isolated event, but rather a longstanding pattern of behavior, which many fans understandably find frustrating to watch.
Playing the game against his own family is what led to Tywin’s demise. Similarly, Theon’s attempt to outdo both his estranged sister and his foster-brother in one fell swoop got him physically and psychically dismembered. As a more recent example, we’ve just witnessed in that stunning finale how Cersei was willing to play the game to the death against Tommen, when she couldn’t get her way. While Cersei may convince herself she won that round, I’m not so sure. Tommen gracefully exiting that window was his final shining move, one which paradoxically checkmated the checkmater, and which must’ve caught her blindsided, although she’d never admit it and just blather on in silvery tones about the inevitability of prophecy. In contrast to Sansa’s confusing looks, the look that passed between Cersei and Jaime was not ambiguous. It left no doubt: this was a hollow victory. In the process of these family war games, she lost Tommen and she’s well on the way to losing Jaime. Once she loses her hold on him, it’s game over. Antagonizing ones own brother never bodes well. Hopefully Sansa does not make the same mistake in her misplaced zeal for ‘going against the patriarchy’…
Finally, a note on why Sansa withheld her discussions with Littlefinger from Jon and seemed miffed when Brienne confronted her on the same: I suspect it’s not so much because of the uncertain logistics nor necessarily some diabolical battle plan, but rather due to her shame at her ongoing attachment to this dodgy character and his glib enticements. She’s playing a dangerous game with the arch-psychopath of them all, who desires nothing less than the utter destruction of her family (this includes her), and on some non-verbal level she’s already intuitively comprehended this, even without having all the facts at her disposal. He’s already two or three steps ahead of her, so she’d better get moving…
Summer Child,
Excellent post!!!
I had hoped Sansa had grown from the shallow, self centred girl of season one. Unfortunately her arc in season six, as you’ve articulated so well, only served to tell me she hasn’t changed fundamentally much at all. She is way out of her depth trying to play Littlefinger.
Hopefully Ayra will be reunited with Jon and Sansa in Season 7. The Starks could do with her newly acquired skills with the elephant in the room that is Lord Baelish.
Summer Child,
As Halfman has said, this is a truly excellent post. I love the parallels between the real Sansa and jealous PlaySansa, waiting in the wings to be the undoing of Lady Crane because she believes that she is the better player, more deserving of being the star, and the one who could keep the adoration of the crowds if only given the chance – if only she can steal that chance. The real Sansa is waiting in the wings of Winterfell, perhaps wanting to be Jon’s undoing, and certainly believing she’s the better player, more deserving of the crown. Perhaps Arya will be the clever one, again, sussing out her sister’s intent and saving the sibling she loves.
I’ve certainly done my fair share of complaining about the writing this season. Even though we’ve had probably the best season to date, I would love to see less holes, less apparating, and much better dialogue. However, I’m not convinced that the writers and director wanted this tension to be oh-so-obvious. They’ll continue with the subtleties next season, sure, but I hope that this set up will continue being subtle, even if that means that the Sansa fans will still be in denial right until the moment of betrayal.
Lannisters would probably consider Tyrion their ultimate traitor, though his familial treachery seems unlikely to lead to his demise.
That, I am fascinated with ! ^^
Ever since I started reading the books all those years ago and even more so since the show began, I have been taken in by this “be a Stark”, “be a Lannister”, etc. logic that permeates the story and seems wholedheartedly accepted by my fellow ASOIAF and GOT aficionados and I remain, well, fascinated !
What does “being a Stark” mean ? There are so many versions, so many incarnations…
If, as you note, it is “putting the needs of the pack before one’s own” then Robb, when he refused to exchange his sisters’ safe return for Jaime’s was not being a Stark; he let his duties as KITN and general stand in the way of his loyalty to his pack.
If it is “being honourable”, as Ned would probably assert, then Jon was not being a Stark when he broke his vows with Ygritte. And one might even argue that Ned himself, by actively lying to his wife about Jon’s true identity for close to 20 years was operating on a rather intriguing definition of the word “honour”. He honoured his promise to his sister but completely failed to honour (and trust) Catelyn…
“Being a Stark” seems to change meaning depending on who is defining it.
The only fixed definitions are the Houses’ words.
Lannister : “hear me roar”. Seems to express a deeply-rooted desire for recognition, for admiration. A willingness to use threat if need be.
Tully : “family, duty, honour”. Would indicate an attachment to the group more than to the individual. A sense of self-sacrifice to insure collective survival and success.
Targaryen : “blood and fire”. Dragons ! And death to anyone who stands in the way.
Arryn : “higher than honour”. May allude to an attachment to principles rather than pragmatism, a desire always to be irreprochable and “above the fray” (considering Ned was basically brought up by Jon Arryn, it is possible his definition of “being a Stark” was more influenced by the Arryns’ motto than by his own family’s)
Stark : “winter is coming”. Both a statement of fact and a warning. Would indicate, to me, a fundamentally pragmatic rather than idealistic approach to life : we see reality for what it is, not for what we wish it to be, we intend to survive it, we will prepare for it and deal with it. No bragging or boasting of self, just “sh*t happens” ^^
If those words are “true”, then Torrhen Stark was the Starkest of all the Starks : he recognised the reality in front of him and prefered to kneel, regardless of the stain on his honour, rather than stand on principle and go to a certain death.
Then Ned was at his Starkest when he decided to declare himself a liar and a traitor, thereby recognising he could not realistically win this fight and chosing his life and his daughters’ safety over his principles.
Then Jon was the ultimate Stark when he made the decision to let the Freefolk pass the Wall, not because WildlingsLiveMatter but because, very pragmatically, he did not want them to turn into wights therefore threats.
Then Sansa was as Stark as Stark can be whenever she did whatever had to be done, said whatever had to be said to keep on surviving in the pit of snakes that is Westeros.
Of course, the Starks are our heroes, to us readers and viewers. They are the only “normal” family, the only one whose members seem driven by genuine affection and love. However, just because they are “our” heroes does not necessarily mean that they are fundamentally more “heroic” (whatever the definition of that word may be :D) than anybody else.
It certainly seems like even the Stark who came up with his/her House’s words did not think that.
And therein might lie the seeds of the conflict to come and the whole paradox of the character of Sansa in GOT.
To the enemies of the Starks and the North, she is a Stark and a Northerner; so they can abuse, threaten, rape, beat, torment, utilise her.
To the allies of the Starks and the North, she is neither a real Stark nor a real Northerner; so they feel justified in not supporting, helping, trusting or following her.
Enough of a Stark to be humilated, not enough of a Stark to be respected : the best of both worlds ! ^^
Lyanna’s openly condescending approach to Sansa’s “true” identity seemed foreshadowing to me and hopefully it will be addressed next season, as part of that “hint of conflict” the writers promised. Sansa might revendicate her “battle scars”, so to speak, in front of those Northern lords who so easily bypassed her and ignored her contribution (possibly because they all agree with Lyanna’s assessment of Sansa’s loyalty) .
Her putting forward the fact that she bled (literally) in the name of her family and the North, that she has earned the right to call herself a Stark and that, as a result, she should be acknowledged, would be narratively rewarding, I think.
To point out that there are many ways to be a Stark would continue the theme of “mythbusting” this season was peppered with.
Maybe Bran will get back to Winterfell and be like, enough fighting you two. I’m the last true born son of Ned Stark, so I override both of you, so can we now focus on what needs to be focused on, the Night King? Cool? Good. lol 🙂
I need to rewatch this series when I get the chance – I’d forgotten littlefinger was involved at all in Ned Stark’s death. I predict that Sansa will eventually kill littlefinger.
Halfman,
Thank you for reading; I enjoyed writing it!
Your characterisation of Baelish as ‘the elephant in the room’ is interesting in light of several texts. Indeed, a colossal ‘giant’ remains to be slain, and I don’t think it was Wun-Wun! Then, this passage, particularly poignant in retrospect, as Ned gets an inkling of ‘the beast’ in their midst:
When he had gone, Eddard Stark went to the window and sat brooding. Robert had left him no choice that he could see. He ought to thank him. It would be good to return to Winterfell. He ought never have left. His sons were waiting there. Perhaps he and Catelyn would make a new son together when he returned, they were not so old yet. And of late he had often found himself dreaming of snow, of the deep quiet of the wolfswood at night.
And yet, the thought of leaving angered him as well. So much was still undone. Robert and his council of cravens and flatterers would beggar the realm if left unchecked … or, worse, sell it to the Lannisters in payment of their loans. And the truth of Jon Arryn’s death still eluded him. Oh, he had found a few pieces, enough to convince him that Jon had indeed been murdered, but that was no more than the spoor of an animal on the forest floor. He had not sighted the beast itself yet, though he sensed it was there, lurking, hidden, treacherous.
I love reading other people’s interpretations, especially when they are so different from my own ! It is quite great 🙂
Funnily, I interpreted this scene as a continuation of the charivari theme the play evoked.
Just like the play was itself full or errors and slanders (Tyrion is the criminal mastermind, Ned is a moron, etc.), the behind-the-scene interactions between the actors were the exact opposite of the dynamics as we know them in Westeros : in Braavos, Actress Sansa is murderous while Actress Cersei is sort of ok, if a little worse for wear, while in Westeros, it is the other way around; in Braavos, Actress Sansa wants Actress Cersei dead, yet in Westeros, it is Cersei who desperately wants Sansa’s head on a spike; in Braavos, Actress Sansa is bitter not be Play Cersei, in Westeros, it was Cersei who seemed infuriated by “perfect” Sansa (as she mockingly called her during the Blackwater battle); in Braavos, it is Actress Cersei who has a rather terrible track record with men while, in Westeros, that is Sansa’s territory ^^
Considering George RR Martin’s admitted love for Richard III and the way this play distorted reality so as to turn a historical “normal guy” into a villain, I thought that was the main driving force of this whole “comedy of errors” both onstage and back.
This season is like a Rorschach test ! 🙂
I absolutely agree that it was an election. Yet, birthright was at the forefront of the “campaign”. Lyanna Mormont’s crucial argument was : “I don’t care that he is bastard, it is Ned Stark’s blood running through his veins” (not the exact quote, I fear). That was the clincher.
I do not think anyone (here at least) is arguing against Jon’s coronation.
The problem is not that he is KITN; the problem is that Sansa is nothing. The issue is not that Jon was rewarded for his victory in the BOTB, that was more than deserved, he fought hard and almost died, for Pete’s sake ! Of course, he should be celebrated. The issue is that Sansa’s contribution was apparently non-existent.
There would be no bone for contention if Jon got the majority of the cake and his sister a slice; that would make sense. Here, she did not even get crumbs. No mention of her name.
It is not an either/or situation, I believe. Of course, there cannot be two KITN (with one being a queen). But there can be a KITN and a Lady of Winterfell. Or a Wardeness of the North who deals with stuff while the KITN is at the Wall to prepare for the ultimate battle. One does not have to overshadow the other; they can both coexist.
Ha ha ha ! Bravo ! That is THE solution !
Bran kicking ass and resolving family feuds with his awesomeness; I can definitely get behind that.
ACME,
At the risk of coming across as a sycophant, I just wanted to say that I really really enjoy your posts. Your take on character’s motivations and actions is very nuanced and well-thought. I particularly enjoyed your analysis on what “being a Stark” means (or rather the multiple meanings it has). I find it very original and I has given me something to ruminate on.
Ultimatly GoT is a story of flawed, emotionally scarred characters trying to survive in a cruel world. I find that assigning blame without trying to understand why those characters do what they do, is rather pointless.
Thanks again! I look forward to reading more posts from you.
Just to clarify, why is everyone assuming that ISN’T happening? Jon was declared KITN, but he very clearly said Winterfell is hers. How do we know that it isn’t happening, that in the very next scene he won’t tell her she’s the Lady of Winterfell? The Lord/Lady of Winterfell is typically hereditary, belonging to a true Stark. Being de clared KITN is conceivably not.
To be honest, I could NEVER see a way in which the Northern lords would declare a Queen in the North. How on earth could Sansa have expected that – or anyone to expect it? Not only has there never been a Queen in the North, but not one interaction with her has shown us that THE NORTH – not the Vale – supports her. I would’ve laughed out loud if we’re suddenly to believe that Sansa Stark is capable of ruling the North with Winter coming, or that anyone thought she was.
THE SHOW tells us that she doesn’t understand the Northern lords, not really. The show tells us she said all the wrong things. The show tells us that the way she saved the day was NOT through the North but through Littlefinger and the Vale. Why should we feel, in the show, that she “deserves” to lead the North?
Honestly, these all seem artificial reasons for Sansa to turn against Jon. If the show doesn’t give us more reasonable reasons for her to be plotting against him, she’s going to come out looking like a real villain. And maybe that’s what they intend. But for right now, her so-called “legitimate” gripes that the actors and writers are telling us she has have zero backing on screen.
Because there’s never been a King in the North and a Lord/Lady of Winterfell at the same time. A king needs a castle; the King in the North’s castle is Winterfell. Or, at a minimum, being Lady of Winterfell is a meaningless position as long as your liege lord also lives here.
By that token, we didn’t see anything this season indicating that they support Jon either. The only time during the rallying tour where Jon was of any use was with the Wildlings. Which is a flaw in his arc, in turn, as there’s no context for why Baby Bear Mormont is suddenly so thrilled with him.
Conversely, we see Glover and all the other lords come grovelling this episode, saying they should indeed have been supporting the Starks all along, which is what Sansa told them. So the show is having it both ways there.
Winterfell is tied to the monarch of the north in the same way that the Iron Throne is tied to the monarch of the Seven Kingdoms. There has never been a northern monarch who wasn’t the master of Winterfell, and all the former kings and wardens are buried in her crypts. That’s why the Boltons moved into Winterfell even though it had been burned. Winterfell = Warden/King in the North.
I don’t think Sansa wanted to be Queen in the North. That was never her main goal. She wanted to go back home to be safe. Becoming Lady of Winterfell (and probably Wardeness of the North) was probably just an after thought. There was never an indication that she power-hungry.
Jon was equally ineffective in rallying the North and showed he didn’t understand both the post-Red Wedding grievances of the northern Lords or the animosity that letting the wildlings generated. So why do you think he “deserves” to lead the North?
Actually, he did understand. He wasn’t the least bit surprised when Lord Glover threw the wildling alliance in his face, and he visibly cringed when Sansa started demanding Glover’s allegiance. Jon knew the score and knew exactly how hard it would be to get the Lords on his side, between being a bastard and wildling sympathizer. He never expected people to simply fall in line the way Sansa did. What he lacked was the drive and confidence to make his case, which mainly boils down to D&D’s determination to make him such an underdog this season that his own previously established strengths needed to be ignored. This guy held his own just fine against Mance Rayder and Stannis Baratheon. He only goes non-verbal when D&D can’t think of any other ways to prop up his supporting characters or to manufacture tension in his scenes.
As for why he’s a better leader of the North than Sansa? That’s pretty obvious for anyone who remembers anything that happened on this show before Season 6. Seasons 4 and 5 clearly established both Jon’s leadership skills during the defense of the Wall and his common sense and foresight in allying with the wildlings against the larger threat. Retconning his leadership skills this season in order to artificially raise the stakes for this battle does not change the fact that the audience and reviewers alike all acknowledged Jon as an effective leader and one of the few characters who actually got shit done during Season 5. In fact, Benioff flat out stated during Season 4 promotion that establishing Jon as a strong leader was crucial in setting up the series endgame. Whatever nonsense they put to screen this season doesn’t change their long game for him. Some people may not like it or want to accept it, but Jon was destined to rule from day 1.
Furthermore, Jon is blatantly the most suitable character to lead the North through the oncoming war. He understands the true enemy better than anyone, survived multiple excursions beyond the wall, and managed to rescue over 5000 wildlings from a surprise white walker ambush. He turned thousands of his enemies into allies who were willing to fight and die for him, and if not for WunWun, the soldiers of the Vale would currently be starving and freezing to death outside the gates of Winterfell. Not that I expect Jon haters to give him an ounce of credit where it’s actually due, but the Vale alone was not enough to take the castle, only to win the battle itself. If Jon hadn’t secured the wildlings, Ramsay Bolton would be sitting in Winterfell waiting out a siege right now.
Now lets talk about Sansa. When has she displayed anything resembling leadership skills? What has she ever commanded? When has she demonstrated the ability to inspire loyalty in anyone? Her own uncle wouldn’t join her cause. How can she be a leader if nobody even wants to follow her? Where has she demonstrated these so-called diplomacy skills some of her fans are on about? Was it when she failed to recruit a single person to her cause (Littlefinger brought in the Vale, not her) or when she challenged Davos during the first war council meeting, only to be proven dead wrong on every front? What attributes does she have that make her a good ruler? She’s myopic, self-serving, entitled, and manipulates people who are already on her side. While Jon and Dany want what’s best for the realm and its people, Sansa only wants what’s best for herself. How is she fit to rule anything?
A dornish Tyrell,
The Northerners are wild and difficult to rule people. Remember Greatjon Umber wanted to control Robb and he laugh when Grey Wind ate his fingers … They wouldn’t follow a Queen like Sansa. They could follow someone like Brienne maybe or Lyanna, but not Sansa. I think Littlefinger didn’t understand them either. He though they would preferred a true-born daughter because in the south (not Dorne) there isn’t tolerance against bastards. They follow a warrior. I’m not sure what will happen when Bran arrives at Winterfell. They chose Jon Snow for King …
elybe,
You mistake me for a Jon hater. I am not. In fact, Jon is one of my favorite characters. However, I prefer my “heroes” to be flawed, to be more humanised than the stereotypical cannot-do-anything-wrong hero. It’s undeniable that Jon has a long list of accomplishments and I’m not saying that he’s not fit to lead the North against the WW. However, to pretend that Jon is infallible, it’s actually a disservice to his character. Jon have made several mistakes or ill-managed some situations: he didn’t take Stannis advice regarding Alliser Thorne, he didn’t explain Lord Glover about the WW or the necessity of letting the wildlings in (in fact, that’s exactly the reason why the Umbers decide to ally with the Boltons), he undid his own battle plan, etc…
Many of those mistakes are perfectly understandable and in any case they make Jon a much more interesting and relatable character. The point I was trying to make is that GoT is about flawed and deeply emotionally scarred characters making sometimes good and sometimes bad decision. To have a black and white vision of these characters only leads to partisanship… A kind of conversation I find quite boring, to be honest.
I’m pretty sure, that Jon would be OK with passing his non-existing crown to Bran, if he wants it. I’m also sure that Bran, being the 3EC, would not accept it. If there is anybody, he understands that Jon needs to lead the fight, while he himself has some other, yet-to-be-revealed task to accomplished. (I think it may be something like interfering with the NK’s ability to keep control of the army of dead. Or to provide some useful ideas how to stop them.)
Bran might also reveal Jon’s parentage – who knows what effect that will have on Jon, on the North, and the power dínamics.
Mag,
You’re right… I never actually expected Sansa to be named “Queen in the North”. Especially if the other houses have the same feelings regarding her as Lyanna Mormot has (are you a Bolton or a Lannister? –> I’m paraphrasing). I didn’t think that they were to name Jon “King in the North”, either. So, that was a surprise to me. 🙂
It will be very interesting to see what happens when/if Bran comes back to Winterfell… Will Jon abdicate? What kind of political conflicts would that create? All of that will be overshadowed by the WW menace, certainly… But it’s fun to speculate nontheless. 🙂
…hey, maybe Roslin will let him out!
GoGo777,
…indeed, it does.
A dornish Tyrell,
I don’t specifically take you for a Jon hater and I apologize for the insinuation. I’m just pointing out the sentiment that most of his haters echo in the face of evidence to the contrary. I, too, appreciate flawed characters and personally never saw Jon as infallible (although I do think it’s a shame that D&D have refused to adapt any of his moral complexity into the show). Jon absolutely made mistakes both this season and in previous seasons, but some people have taken it about fifty steps further and used those mistakes to discredit every single one of his successes and every single sound decision he has ever made. I can concede that Jon was reckless during the BotB and that his fatal flaw in Season 5 was fixating so hard on the bigger picture that he underestimated the more immediate dangers around him. That doesn’t make him an irredeemable idiot, terrible leader, or precious cinnamon roll who needs his advisers to hold his hand whenever he crosses the street. I appreciate a hero who fucks up and is held accountable for it. The problem is that Jon doesn’t have permission to be three-dimensional where his critics are concerned. For all the whinging about wanting “gray, complex characters,” Jon is not allowed to fuck up in this series without a select group of people using those mistakes to completely define his character, regardless of what came before and what’s likely to come after. I think at this point it’s possible to acknowledge Jon’s mistakes this season and still see precisely why the Northern Lords would want to rally behind him.
A dornish Tyrell,
Maybe the “King in the North” title was unexpected but he was sure to be the leader to follow. He has to take control of the North because he understands the war that is coming.
elybe,
I agree with you regarding the double-standard of people wanting gray, complex characters and the bashing them if they make mistakes, or defining that character only by his/her mistakes… That’s why I find it equally infurating when people do the same with Sansa. Yes, she has been a spoiled brat in the first season and mostly a pawn in the machinations of the Lannisters, Tyrells, Littlefinger and Boltons… But after everything she went through, do you really fault her for wanting to feel safe at any cost? And yes, she have made several morally cuestionable decisions. But to paint her as one thing and one thing only… How is that different from the Jon-bashers?
If you allow me a suggestion, read the posts by ACME in this thread. She has some really nuanced and eloquent posts. You may no agree with everything (or maybe anything) she says, but it’s a very good read nontheless! 🙂
You’ve expressed the concept better than I could here! I love your pick-up of the play on ‘player,’ which of course has the double meaning of actor and manipulator. Shakespeare said it best:
All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages…
Good point. One of GRRM’s themes is how easily ‘the hunters become the hunted,’ although Tyrion’s relative immunity on that front might rather be due to how he seems to bask in the special glow of the author/s’ beneficence! Nevertheless, Tyrion’s moment of truth will come when he’s confronted with Jaime again, and finds himself torn between Jaime and Dany
. While that may not lead to Tyrion’s demise, it will surely result in a broken heart. He actually does love his brother
Nice deconstruction!
While this illustrates a valuable point of pragmatism vs. idealism, it’s also important to note that Torrhen didn’t only kneel in the interests of his own individual survival, but that of the wider community; he humbled himself to save his kin and the North (what else can you do when confronted with dragonfire…I guess we’ll find out eventually!). Sansa, on the other hand, tends to save her own skin first, following her own inclinations, with little consideration of how those decisions might affect others, so in terms of ‘heroism’ there’s not really an equivalence with Torrhen. (According to this definition, however, Jaime should be made an honorary ‘Stark’– that’s how the wolf in all fairness should judge the lion!)
Regarding the Stark words, ‘Winter is coming…,’ from which the associated injunction follows that the pack survives whereas the lone wolf falters, while I agree with you that the Stark words are about facing the stark reality and ‘doing what works’ in order to survive, I disagree that the ethos would be by any means necessary, nor an ‘every woman/man for him/herself mentality,’ but rather a retention of ethical responsibility towards others despite the bleakness of the circumstances, which would stand in stark contrast with Sansa’s latest nihilistic pearl that ‘no-one can protect anybody.’ By the way, the latter expression is yet another permutation of the Mockingbird’s philosophy tweeted out in Sansa’s voice; another way of saying that ‘no-one can protect anybody’ is saying that everyone can — and therefore should by rights– exploit everyone else!
Regardless of ones best efforts, it would seem that no matter which ‘pack’ one decides to align oneself with, one inevitably meets an impasse, a dilemma where one is forced to choose between conflicting packs and conflicting principles, which necessarily involves making sacrifices. While acknowledging this bitter truth, the point I was nevertheless making is that Sansa’s tendency to go it alone and fall in line with a psychopath is probably not the optimal choice of ‘pack,’ all things considered, especially when other options are open to her. Someone like Littlefinger is by nature quintessentially devoid of love or loyalty — and she is not excluded from this paradigm, however special he might convince her she is to him (he’s only ever ‘loved’ one woman, after all…) — therefore it’s a foolish choice for her in the long term, even if it means survival or glory in the short term.
While Sansa was often painted into a tight corner in that viperous southron pit as you note, forcing her into compromising herself in order to survive (rightfully earning Tyrion’s commendation, ‘Lady Sansa, you may survive us yet!), I would also argue that whenever she did have the opportunity, albeit admittedly rare, of having the choice between other options presented to her, she made an art form out of invariably embracing slimy characters and spurning more savory ones. With Sansa (and others) GRRM has constructed a ‘Beauty-and-the-Beast’ trope, whereby Sansa is shown to repeatedly reach for the shiniest bauble in her immediate grasp, no matter how noxious or corrupt within, which is not really indicative of superior survival skills but a surfeit of vanity. This leads her, for example, to initially reject the help of characters which embody the ‘Beauty-Beast’ paradox like Sandor ‘the Hound’ and Brienne ‘the Beauty.’
To elaborate, first she aligned herself with Joffrey rather than supporting Arya — directly leading to Mycah’s death, Lady’s death, Nymeria’s expulsion, and much unhappiness all round in the Stark family. Was that a question of ‘pragmatism’; was her very survival in question? No, but the survival of other parties, including her own wolf, certainly depended on her response (true-to-form, when called on she produced her signature response, what I have termed her ‘conceit of omission,’ and the rest is history). Second, in the books, infatuated with all-things-Cersei, she prioritized the queen over her own family, inadvertently contributing to Ned’s undoing and bloody execution. Again, not a question of ensuring her own survival, but rather one of following her own fancy. Then, she refuses Sandor’s offer to get her out of King’s Landing and out of the clutches (or should I say ‘claws’) of the Lannisters, even though he’d more than proved himself a trustworthy protector by being the only one who had cared enough for her, albeit in his gruff way, to come to her aid when she was about to be gang-raped in the streets of King’s Landing. Instead, she’d rather rely on Littlefinger’s agency to extricate her from her misery (oh the irony!) and allow him to orchestrate her future, after he’d neatly implicated her as the prime suspect bar Tyrion in regicide, and gloated about it (a crime for which Cersei still wants her head– a head which Baelish has promised to deliver); although to be fair to Sansa, she basically had few options but to comply with her ‘rescuer’ at that point.
Later, however, when she finally had the opportunity to ally herself with family in the Vale and trust a loyal upright person like Royce, instead she predictably sides with the psychopath again, even going so far as to cover up his crime after having witnessed him murder her aunt (this obstinate lack of judgment — she really is a Stark!– recapitulates her silence after witnessing Joffrey attacking Mycah and Arya, except on an even more dangerous level). Those callous last words of Littlefinger to Lysa should have told her something, but alas Sansa seems deaf to every ‘red flag’ waved in her direction. I don’t think Sansa is ensuring as much as flirting with her own survival — and that of others! In the books, moreover, she may even be complicit in turning a blind eye to the systematic poisoning of her cousin. From the Eyrie it’s off to Winterfell to marry, you guessed it, yet another psychopath (son of the psychopath she knows murdered her brother and mother)…And then the audience is surprised when Ramsay rapes her?! Why did she agree to enter into this untenable arrangement? Just because Baelish waved the beguiling bauble of revenge in her face, and gives one of his rousing monologues, she takes the bait…Yes, Sansa is a survivor; she can singlehandedly outfox those flaying men!
I agree she has the right to call herself a Stark and assert her claim, but is it really worth it if that recognition comes at the expense of her Stark family? In support of taking down the patriarchy, incidentally Lyanna Jon’s mother was just as much Stark as Ned, despite being a woman; so in genetic terms, both Jon and Sansa bear the identical percentage of ‘Stark blood running through their veins’!
In the end, however, it’s not our ‘blood’ but our chosen affiliations that define us, and the definition of ‘family’ has been shown to have a certain fluidity. As a case in point, you are right about Ned: he always loved Robert his Vale foster-brother of sorts more than most of his ‘real’ family, and in turn Lyanna more than Robert, and finally Jon, as the last piece of his lost sister, more than Catelyn, and even Jon he failed. He was caught between all the people he loved, loves he could never individually do justice to, no matter what he did — but unlike Littlefinger at least he loved. The failing at love (to quote Davos, ‘Good. You failed. Now go and fail again!’) — in contrast with Littlefinger’s example of dispensing with it altogether — is what makes Ned a tragic hero. I’m not begrudging Sansa the right to create her own family, according to her own definition. I’m cautioning that without fostering the ties of reciprocal love and loyalty, and merely doing whatever is immediately expedient in order to survive, Sansa is going to end up just as brittle and hollowed-out as Cersei –and that would be a ‘stark’ reality indeed!
That’s an ingenious analysis. The great thing about both GRRM and Rohrschach tests is that meaning is overdetermined, so different interpretations are not mutually exclusive!
There seem to be a lot of fingers in the pie (sorry, bad joke…) There’s Frey pies giving Walder the finger, Grey Wind chomping off Umber’s fingers, Stannis leaving his Hand Davos with half a hand, and Littlefinger with a finger in every pie… Yes, I’m sure we can all agree, despite our disagreements, that the realm has gotten ‘out of hand’..!
Your remark on the North following a warrior reminded me of the Dothraki only being prepared to follow strength– another interesting parallel between Jon and Dany’s arcs.
I fear that, very much like the Northern lords, we are conflagrating two very different things : leading and ruling…
Jon is a crucial character of GOT and ASOIAF. There is no question about that. He may actually be the most crucial character. After all, he is the song of ice and fire, both Targaryen and Stark (R+L=J confirmed !)
So is he a leader ? Of course ! Of bloody course he is ! He is built to lead. His destiny, in my opinion, is to lead the living in their war against the dead. No one can do it better than him.
Is he a ruler ? Well…
Ruling and leading are very different beasts. They require very dissimilar sets of skills.
Danaerys is a perfect example of that. As Daario (rightly, in my opinion) pointed out, she is a conqueror, not a queen. She is terrific at leading; admittedly the dragons do the heavy lifting but she has remarkable instincts when it comes to chosing her targets. And she can make awesome speeches in many languages which is a plus !
As a ruler, she… Well, I do not want to offend her followers so let’s just say that she is very mediocre at best. As she says herself, she does not stop the wheel, she breaks the wheel. Unfortunately, ruling is not about stopping or breaking the wheel; it is about building, fixing and spinning the wheel. It is about knowing the different kind of wants different kinds of people have (yes, sometimes, Littlefinger is right about stuff) and calculating the risks of giving it to them. Her reign over Mereen was basically a disaster until Tyrion was brought in. Tyrion is a natural-born ruler : he understands that governing is about compromise, arrangements, deals, sacrifices, etc. Had he paid a tiny bit closer attention to what Grey Worm was telling him, he would have been downright perfect.
Ruling is not Daenerys’s thing. She (finally !) left Mereen with a warning and a name change, hoping for the best. Quite frankly, I am not at all convinced the Slavers won’t go back to enslaving after a couple of months of Battle of Mereen-induced caution. Once they will be certain she is not coming back…
So Daenerys, great leader, subpar ruler.
Robert Baratheon : awesome leader, terrible ruler.
Robb Stark : tremendous leader, pathetic ruler.
Jon Snow : fantastic leader, …
As a ruler, his experience is that of being Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch and let’s just say it did not end well.
In the particular case of the North, the leading/ruling dichotomy was introduced during the finale : the big picture (the Night’s King and the future of mankind) and the small one (the politics of Westeros and the North)
Jon cares for the big picture. That is who he is ! More pragmatically, that is his narrative fonction.
He wants a united North because it is the frontline of the battle to come. Said battle is not just about the North, it is about the living, whether they reside in Last Hearth or Sunspear. The wights and the White Walkers do not seem to care about pesky human fronteers; if they defeat the North, they will keep on descending, killing and devastating every man, woman and child on their way. So ideally, it is not just a united North Jon needs but a united Westeros so all the armies of all the kingdoms can join forces with the Northerners and the Night’s Watch.
He wants to lead.
The Northern lords care for the small picture.
They started shouting “KITN” to drown out the voice of a ten-year-old ball of awesomeness shaming them over their past cowardice. As Sean C very rightly said, they groveled. And they completely hijacked Jon’s point with their political agenda. They want revenge on the southern Crown for the humilation they suffered at its hands. They want to be an independent kingdom.
They want him to rule.
Already, there is a slight problem here.
But wait, there’s more ! 🙂
An independent North is cute and all but, in effect, it means declaring war on the Crown… Thereby opening, on top of the frontline of the Wall, a new frontline on the southern border… It means challenging Cersei. Because YOLO !
So basically, by shouting “KITN”, the Northern lords have put Jon in the position of
– leading the living in their war against the dead (his original plan)
– ruling over an extremely vast though scarcely populated territory (something he may not be as good at as the rest)
– fighting against a woman whom he knows nothing about but is cray cray, owns industrial quantities of the Renaissance fair answer to nitroglycerin and wants his sister dead (WTF !!)
Do not fear Sansa stabbing Jon in the back. He will throw himself onto a dagger within a week of that insanity !
He will need help. And I believe Sansa may provide some of it, if given the chance (or if she seizes it without waiting for someone to give it to her).
She knows Cersei better than any Northern lord can boast; she knows what the lioness wants (yep, Littlefinger-ism again). She knows Littlefinger who is both Lord Protector of the Vale and Lord Paramount of the Trident (if Cersei wants to attack the North, she will have to cross either the Vale or the Riverlands) and she has info on him that could get him killed…
And she may provide assistance with the management of the North. She has seen bad rulers (Joff); she has seen efficient rulers (Tywin); she has seen good rulers (Tyrion)… She may patch together an idea of what to do.
Jon will have to rely on people. His sister is there and may be of use. All it takes is a bridge.
A dornish Tyrell,
Oh, it is very kind of you ! I am delighted you enjoy my dreafully long-winded posts (House identities in GOT are puzzling, aren’t they ?) I enjoy yours too.
ASOIAF and GOT are indeed full of anti-heroes and non-idealistic characters and it is, in my opinion as well, the charm of it. However, we all have our favourites and, sometimes, passions may run very high indeed ! When it is not over-the-top, spirited debate is always inspiring ^^
At least in the show, you’ll recall that Ned outright old Arya afterward that Sansa had to take Joffrey’s side in that argument.
You make it sound like she chose Littlefinger over the Hound, which she did not. She refused the Hound’s help because he was drunk, covered in blood, and in the show she barely knew him. In the books, he was drunk, covered in blood, raving mad, and fled before they could have much of a conversation.
The aunt who had just tried to murder her, you mean?
Because the showrunners wanted her to go to Winterfell.
Addendum to the above (I wish we had longer edit windows):
Much of what you’re describing are ultimately the result of the show’s inconsistent writing. Her agreeing to Baelish’s plan, for instance, is initially framed as if it’s a bold, positive action, and the only flaw in the plan is Baelish not knowing about Ramsay’s true nature. This season, once they got the plot over with, the show’s presentation completely changes, with Sansa even pointing out how dumb Baelish’s scheme is, and describing Baelish as having sold her to Ramsay.
You also cite the issue with her saving Littlefinger. At the end of Season 4, this was framed as Sansa being unsure what the Vale lords would do with her (even though the plan she came up with relies on them keeping her secrets anyway) and that she’d work with Littlefinger but have her own agenda and be on guard against him. Then in Season 5 it’s played like she’s a completely credulous dupe, because that’s what the plot requires her to be in order to go to Winterfell.
A common thread here is the writers keep wanting to jump to Independent Sansa, but at the same time not have her do anything that takes her outside Littlefinger’s orbit, because the overall plot requires that she remain within it until the probable final moment where she learns of his involvement in Ned’s death. In the two seasons since 408, the only time Sansa has tried to go against what Baelish wanted (605) it lasted for less than an episode. Having merged her plot with Jeyne Poole, they had to address the ramifications of that, but get her back under his influence anyway.
A dornish Tyrell,
I agree that it’s just as bad when Sansa-haters subject her to the same double standard. I’m actually fine with the direction that Sansa has taken this season, so long as she too is held accountable for her actions. I don’t fault her for wanting to be safe; I fault her for putting her own brother’s life at risk for reasons that are never properly explored, and I question her judgement in distrusting the one person who has taken her in without any ulterior motives and bent over backwards to help her. My biggest issue with Sansa is that the writers have made it near impossible to understand where her mind is at, and very few of her actions and gripes this season have made much sense even after you factor in PTSD (which Jon also suffers from). I’m primarily responding to the assertion of many of her more fervent supporters that Jon is an incompetent imbecile who should be kissing the ground she walks on, and jumping through hoops to exonerate her for a deception which cost just as many lives as Jon’s recklessness.
ACME,
I don’t disagree with you. I think Jon will absolutely need help. Any effective King or Queen needs to identify their own strengths and weaknesses and keep good council. As for Jon’s abilities as a ruler, that has yet to be seen, although it’s mainly his abilities as a leader which have come under fire this season. As Lord Commander, he was stabbed for making the correct call because he underestimated the severity of the animosity around him. That was a fatal error, but I’m not sure it says anything about him as a future ruler. In the books he’ll learn from that mistake, but we’ll have to wait until Season 7 to see if D&D feel like evolving his character in any way. In my view, though, there’s a difference between saying that Jon and Sansa’s skills compliment one another’s and the more prevalent tendency (of late) to completely reduce Jon to a war machine who can’t function unless he has a sword in his hand.
That may be the single most crucial element relating to the Stark ethos ; the need for a pack.
As you rightly indicated, Ned’s teachings to Arya revolve around the necessity for wolves to remain as a group for “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives”. This sense of belonging is the element which provides what I perceive as the Starks’ rather pragmatic approach to the necessities of survival with an emotionally sound basis.
However, Sansa has been without a pack for a very long time.
While all the Stark brothers have retained a group of reference akin to a family over their trials and tribulations (Robb and his army and mother; Jon and his “brothers” of the Night’s Watch; Bran and Rickon stayed as a unit for a while and, even after their separation, maintained a semblance of pack-like units : Hodor and the Reed siblings for Bran; Osha for Rickon), the Stark sisters have been very much on their own.
One can easily argue that Sansa’s isolation is, in fact, the product of her separating herself from said pack, by chosing Joffrey over her own flesh and blood. Indeed, it is the most common interpretation, one I share. An original sin, to inject a bit of judeo-christian guilt into fantasy, that has cast a long shadow.
What can a wolf do without its pack ? Without another wolf to fight with and for ?
It fends for itself, possibly to the point of becoming feral. Dangerous to itself and others, including those of its kin.
I, for one, firmly believe Sansa has not yet reached that point. She has had no pack to fight alongside with for years and has had to acquire a certain “ruthlessness” in her tensile strength but she is far from beyond rejoining the group.
If anything, a true reunion with Jon is possibly the best way for her to reinvest emotionally the pack.
While tremendously different on a number of levels, Jon and Sansa share one main characteristic : they always were on the margin of the collective. Jon, as a bastard, was the runt of the litter. Sansa, as the most Tully-esque of all the Stark children and as the only one interested in typically “feminine”, southern activities, stood apart from her siblings.
They were two misfits, in a way, on opposite sides of a spectrum.
As counter-intuitive as it may seem, they probably are the perfect match to bring each other back into the fold. Sansa has declared Jon a Stark on multiple occasions now (she talked of “their” home when alluding to Winterfell, she made him a coat resembling that of their father, complete with the direwolf sigil, she told him pointblank that he was a Stark to her). If he could do the same thing for her, everything would be for the best…
I have to say I cannot entirely agree with that assessment.
Littlefinger is not, in my opinion so emotionally void, especially when it comes to Sansa. She is, to him, an asset (a beautiful young woman with a famous name), the child he wishes he had had with his lifelong love, the second coming of said lifelong love (only more attractive and less dismissive) as well as a potential danger due to the information he knows she holds (he killed Lysa; they were not ambushed by the Boltons; he had Lysa kill Jon Arryn; he participated in a regicide).
And best/worst of all, she is a seemingly talented student : someone as ego-driven as Baelish can only revel in the pleasure of playing Pygmalion, of having a disciple. What point is there in committing the perfect crime if there is no one to boast about it to ? Sansa, at the Eyrie, has revealed that she can, if need be, play the game in a good enough way that it spared him the Moon door.
Sansa is valuable to Baelish, in more ways than one. And he is sensitive to her, in more ways than one. He did promise her head in exchange for the North to Cersei but, in the very next breath, he gave Cersei’s head (figuratively speaking) to the Queen of Thorns…
Far from me the intent to over-romanticise the character of Petyr Baelish; he is a master manipulator who is in it for himself, first and foremost. However, I do not think it is fair to strip him of any and all humanity. He is not the man without weakness he wishes to be perceived as. He does have frature lines and I believe Sansa to be one of them. Possibly the biggest one at the moment.
Therefore, her betting on that frailty is not a mere ego-boost for her; it is, I think, a rather sound strategy. Until a certain point.
If the proverbial push comes to the idiomatic shove, could he try to get rid of her ? Possibly. But not so likely.
And she may be quicker to it than he is…
There is no denying Sansa’s vanity.
However, again, I cannot fully concur. The very few occasions on which she was presented with “alternatives”, I do not have the impression she was systematically swayed by the shallowest of arguments, in spite of the Beauty and the Beast motif. Au contraire.
She did chose Joffrey over Arya; that was indeed motivated by pure vanity and constituted a betrayal of her pack (her infamous original sin).
She chose to trust Cersei over her father; that was partly the deed of a petulant 12-year-old indeed but also the result of a father who failed to explain to his children why they had to leave King’s Landing, making his decision look entirely unreasonable and capricious to both girls.
She chose to stay in King’s Landing over leaving with the Hound; that was, I believe, very sound ! Everybody thought Stannis would win the battle of Blackwater and Ned had declared for Robert’s brother. If everything had gone as expected, Sansa would have been brought back to her family by a decidedly trustworthy, Ned-approved Baratheon. The Hound, as remarkable as he may be in many ways, is a formidable figure and a dubious character. Chosing Stannis over him was not vanity-driven, I believe.
She chose Baelish over Royce; a legitimate bet. She chose the Devil she knew over the one she did not. Royce loyally served her aunt for many years, the very same aunt who tried to murder her in a fit of hysterics and hatred. ” – If they had killed you, what would they have done to me ? – I don’t know. – Neither do I” For all his faults, Baelish never tried to assassinate her so…
She chose Baelish over Brienne; again, better the Devil you know…
She chose to marry Ramsay; now that one is a mixed bag… Her knowledge of Roose’s betrayal of her brother did not objectively tell her anything about the character of his son (if it were that linear, Joffrey, the “son” of her father’s best friend, would have been a constant source of delight to her). Furthermore, there is quite a leap from “son of a turncloak” to “violent rapist with sadistic tendencies and murderous impulses”. Also, Ramsay is a remarkable actor ! We, as viewers, knew his behaviour was an act but to someone deprived on any insight, his performance as the subdued, hesitant, recently legitimised son of a domineering father was Oscar-worthy ! And finally : Stannis !!! Betting on Stannis showing up in the nick of time has decidedly not been a good move for Sansa. ^^ There, she really should have known better. Luckily for her, she can no longer make that mistake. Brienne saw to that.
So while, with hindsight, her choices may not seem as sound as one might have wished for, I think the overwhelming majority of them was quite rationally motivated and not that frequently vanity-induced.
Indeed 😉
elybe,
I think we agree more than we disagree!! 🙂
You won’t find me neither in the “haters” nor in the “apologetics” camp… I rather try to understad each character’s motivations and decisions without recurring to malign them or their antagonists (with a few exceptions, perharps). And that doesn’t mean I have necessarily to concur with their decisions nor it means I condone them. I accept them as the flawed creatures they are. 🙂
Chris2010,
Sophie’s view point always contradicts what’s on the screen.
A dornish Tyrell,
Here’s what people don’t get. Jon doesn’t need to abdicate. Ned Stark was Lord of Winterfell and warden of the North. That is the title he can pass down to his heir not KitN. The north has decided to once again, as with Robb, declare themselves sovereign from the South by electing their own king. There’s no way they’d declare for Sansa because A. she didn’t just prove herself a warrior capable of fighting battles, which Glover rightly knows are more to come and B. They most likely don’t see her as pure northerner anymore because of her previous alliances. Not to mention that kind of like the Wildlings they value strength and fortitude and these lords have seen that from Jon but not necessarily Sansa.
elybe,
100% this. Can’t argue with that logic.
A dornish Tyrell,
Jon is King in the North, not Lord of Winterfell. At the moment Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. So there’s no title for Jon to give up if Bran reappears.
The HBO site makes it clear and shows Jon’s character as KITN and Sansa as Lady of Winterfell.
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-6/episode-10/people
Halfman,
That is interesting that they’d choose to confirm a title like “Lady of Winterfell” on the website. And it is interesting that for the first time ever, KitN is not the Lord of Winterfell.
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-6/episode-10/people/131/sansa-stark
http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season-6/episode-10/people/61/jon-snow
Halfman,
Ok, that’s interesting! I haven’t checked the HBO’s viewers-guide page.
Thanks for the links!! 🙂
Ginevra,
Yeah, I was surprised to see that too. I don’t know if that’s a meaningless detail, or if they’re going to use that as a source of tension next season, maybe? Perhaps Sansa becomes more frustrated by being the nominal Lady of a castle where the King is de facto in charge?
Sean C.,
Ginevra,
Sorry, but where the heck did you get the logic that Sansa is NOT Lady of Winterfell? It’s quite clear that only a Stark can be that. But it seemed obvious on the show that ASIDE from that, they declared Jon KITN.
And that’s the POINT. She’s back in control of Winterfell, but all of a sudden Jon is King. I thought most reviews etc picked up on that.
Just curious, why are you saying that Jon being KITN invalidates Sansa being Lady of Winterfell? We’ve seen no such evidence.What’s clear is that making Jon KITN is really unconventional because he’s NOT legitimized. HE can’t be Lord of Winterfell, but the point is that didn’t matter to being KITN
Nadia,
Because, as I said, the Lord of Winterfell was the King in the North by another name. There has never been any separation between those positions, and if you were to do that (as, apparently, they have done, going by the Viewer Guide), you end up with a king who doesn’t have his own castle, which is politically unstable.
Lord Parramandas,
I don’t think we can reliably read anything on Sansa’s face. Sophie may have been told to emote the opposite of what the character is truly feeling.
I believe she was lying from the time she rode into Castle Black, and, she was lying when she made the puppy-dog face and said “sorry” to Jon. She schemed to get Jon to go to war so that SHE could get Winterfell…her scheme failed. I think she’ll scheme again to take it away from him.
Wait ’till LittleFinger lets it drop that Jon is
. She’ll accuse him of being an imposter.
Nadia,
Isn’t that the lesson being taught to Sansa, that you get what you earn? That names don’t really mean anything if the people don’t support you? Castles don’t mean much if people don’t support you? And that you must either earn your support or use fear and violence to coerce it?
She kinda’ tried to earn it by summoning the Vale. In that sense, she and Jon were competitors on that battlefield. Her effort wasn’t enough.
ACME,
What “fold”? Only Jon’s mother was a Stark. Jon carries his father’s name.
The only thing Sansa can do is force Jon to revisit his painful childhood – another red-haired woman showing up in his life to either offer love, or withhold it. With Sansa and Catelyn, it has been an unequivocal withholding.
Well, everyone involved with the show would disagree with you, but sure, go ahead and think that.
Littlefinger has forgotten one thing. The curse of Harrenhal. Doesn’t bode well for him in the end ?
Anon,
But that would be a legitamte twist if they were taking the character that way but it ain’t happening so don’t hold your breath.The show wants us to think that she is in the right and did nothing wrong and has been robbed and that’s what I can’t wrap my head around
Sean C.,
Sansa seems to believe that the enemy of her enemy is her friend:
She told Theon that she would do to him whatever Ramsey had done, if she could. Does Sansa condone torture or not? She seemed to condone torture when Ramsey did it to someone she considers her enemy; but, oppose it when Ramsey did it to her.
So, the man who kills her aunt – presumably for trying to kill Sansa(HA!) – is her friend. If I recall correctly, Lysa had already backed down when LF shoved her through the moon door…after saying he didn’t really love her. It should have horrified Sansa, and she should have been frightened by what he was capable of doing to her – and what he DID do to her later.
In some ways, she’s like Cersai.
Sean C.,
Everyone?! There’s no point in me asking you exactly who, then.
What did some of them say, specifically?
Sophie Turner, Kit Harington, D.B. Weiss, David Benioff. They’ve all talked about Jon and Sansa’s reunion. They’ve all said she loves him, but has trust issues, to varying degrees. They’ve all said that the reunion is a huge moment for both of them, having family around again.
Moreover, her actions in the finale are simply not consistent with the read that this has all been some big manipulation. If it was, her indecisiveness at the moment of execution is nonsensical.
I noticed a line that I hadn’t really picked up on in the finale. When Littlefinger meets Sansa in the godswood she says:
“I came here every day when I was a girl. Prayed to be somewhere else. Back then I only thought about what I wanted, never about what I had. I was a stupid girl”
If we could trust in any consistency in the writing going into Season 7 then I would suggest that lines like that seal Sansa’s loyalty to Jon.
I’m not sure if the consistency in the writing can be relied upon these days, but I’m hoping that they’ve given us enough hints about where Sansa’s loyalty truly lies.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
That is how it’s gonna end up.It will seem like she is turning against Jon and then she’ll turn around and kill Littlefinger.It will just make me annoyed in the meantime lol
Sean C.,
haha… they’re so full of shit! 😉
Cersai has trust issues! What does that even mean, really – trust issues? I guess there’s a fine distinction between having trust issues and being a villain. The “loves” part I understand. However, I think one of the D’s has said that Cersai has love for her children, even though my eyes clearly show me that she does NOT, in fact, love her children!
I don’t have any trust issues with my own perceptions. I accept them until future perceptions and/or good arguments prove them false.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Got anymore of those kinds of quotes from Sansa? And, what does she mean, precisely, by “what I had”?
What you think she had may not be what she – Sansa – thinks she had.
Jenny,
Better hope LF just stands there and lets her kill him. He is kind of a punk….fingers crossed!
Anon,
Well, there’s…
“Jon isn’t Tormund. Jon isn’t Davos, the Red Woman or Stannis for that matter. Jon is Jon. He’s my brother, he’ll keep me safe, I trust him”
Jon: I’m having the Lord’s Chamber prepared for you.
Sansa: Mother and father’s room? You should take it.
Jon: I’m not a Stark.
Sansa: You are to me.
As for what she had, she had a home, a family, people who cared about her and a name and status that actually carried some weight, unlike down in King’s Landing. I’d say that not valuing all of that certainly qualifies her as a silly girl.
What do you think she meant?
In terms of power and status she’s already in a better position now than she was back then.
As far as we’re aware, she’s the Lady of Winterfell and effectively second in command over the North. Back then she was a spoiled little girl who had three brothers ahead of her in the pecking order.
A dornish Tyrell,
Remarkably well put ! 🙂
Halfman,
Great find ! Thanks.
Now that is intriguing… Does it mean the KITN does not have a castle ?
I, for one, believe Sansa was on the grassy knoll.
South Park was right ! Ginger people have no soul.
I feel it may be a bit of an overinterpretation of what the writers have so far implied.
If they had wanted the viewers to think that Sansa had done absolutely nothing wrong, they would not have had her apologise to Jon for not telling him about the Knights of the Vale. While no clear reason has yet been provided, it was addressed and identified as a problem by the characters themselves.
The writers do seem to want to show us that Sansa might feel robbed of her part of the victory. Which is not an illegitimate view.
Again, and I do sincerely apologise for being so repetitive, it is not an either/or situation.
It is not either Jon gets official credit for the BOTB’s outcome or Sansa does.
On the ground, on the day, two sets of troops were indispensable to win this battle : the Freefolk, brought in by Jon (via Tormund), and the Knights of the Vale, brought in by Sansa (via Littlefinger).
I am quite tempted to “dismiss” the contribution of the Northern lords considering how so very few of them answered the call and the relatively small number of troops they added to the end total.
It would not take anything away from Jon if Sansa’s name were officially mentioned. It would not make him any less heroic if the fact that his sister helped out were publically acknowledged. It is not a zero-sum game.
The Northern lords are so happy te be rid of the Boltons, so delighted for the Red Wedding to have been avenged, one could easily think they would be eager to celebrate all the people who helped achieve that result. But, apparently, not.
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Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
Obviously, Jon isn’t Tormund, or Davos or the Red Woman or Stannis; so, I take it she means that all those people are bad and WOULDN’T “keep me safe” and she doesn’t “trust” them.
But that’s strange, why does she think Tormund is not good? I understand why she thinks the Red Woman and Davos and Stannis aren’t good, but why Tormund? She barely knows him. Brienne told her those others are bad. Did Brienne tell her that Tormund is bad too? Here, she was speaking to Brienne, I think. It seems this statement was meant to allay Brienne’s own fears? There could be more than one reason Sansa wants to calm Brienne’s fears because Brienne was balking at going to Riverrun. Sansa really wanted her to shutup and go to Riverrun!
Sansa has become a very smooth liar…actually, I think she always was. Remember the speech to Lord Royce? Remember her telling LittleFinger that she didn’t want him to spirit her away from King’s Landing because it would be too “dangerous” for him? Remember her lie about the events by the river at the inn? Remember her saying over and over again that her father is a traitor, her brother is a traitor…etc?
Furthermore, Sansa doesn’t treat fellow Starks very kindly; so, I don’t know what it means to HER when she calls Jon a Stark, but I do know what it means to Jon to hear that from her.
To my eyes, too, that’s what she had; but, I don’t know what the character means, only because she lies so well. And, why is she pouring out her heart to the man who “sold” her?
The Stark name, by itself, was not enough. It was Jon’s cachet, if you will. It was his sacrifice on the battlefield. It was his service at the Nights Watch. And, it was a little bit of his maleness too. ..and it could be that the Northern lords are relieved to be rid of the Boltons.
Back then, she wanted to be Queen, by marrying Joffrey! That’s the pinnacle, no?
Now, she has one zero brother in her way. She’s not making too much of a fuss right now, because she thinks he’s Ned’s son.
ACME,
But it would be a moot point.The northern lords know how the battle went.The vale was there in the room and obviously Sansa brought them because Robyn is her cousin.They just see that Jon is the commander and want him as King.The person who should be the most important to Sansa did give her credit even though she witheld information.It’s not his fault the lords chose him.In any case they didn’t fight the battle to get glory they did it to get back their home and Jon to save Rickon.It seems petty to me to be jealous and resentful of your brother just because people prefer him at a time when he is the only family you have left and would do anything for you.LIke she has Winterfell he didn’t take anything from her.That said I’m sure the writers see it as you do and it will be demostrated next season even though I don’t see it that way in the slightest
Anon,
I think there comes a time where you have to take things at face value unless there’s some obvious implication that the character might not be being honest. You can’t assume that a character is lying just because they have done on previous occasions.
Sure, Sansa could have been lying to Brienne just to get her to agree to leave her alone at Castle Black.
Sure, Sansa could have been lying to Littlefinger about her behaviour when she was younger, in order to play him somehow.
And, sure, she could be lying to Jon in order to use him to support her elevation to power.
Except we haven’t been given any hint that that’s what she’s doing or that her motivations are dishonest.
In fact, we’ve been given evidence to the contrary.
Re. Brienne: she told Theon that they’d be safe once they got to Castle Black; her reunion with Jon was obviously heartfelt, as was her relief when he told her he’d look after her from now on. There’s nothing to suggest she didn’t honestly believe that Jon would look after her.
Re. Littlefinger: she’s expressed her regrets over the way she used to think and act more than once on the show (e.g. with Margaery); and at Castle Black, for example, she told Edd that there are more important things than the quality of food they were eating, suggesting she has genuinely matured.
She might be telling Littlefinger this for some manipulative reason I can’t be bothered to consider right now, but there’s nothing to suggest that she doesn’t believe in what she was saying.
And re. Jon: he was already deferring to her. If she was really after all the power then affirming Jon’s position as a Stark worked against her interests at that point.
Unless you think the producers intend to pull a Usual Suspects / Keyser Soze moment and reveal that Sansa’s been playing everybody all along there’s no reason not to take most of what Sansa has said at face value.
The only thing we can say for certain that she was dishonest about was her meeting with Littlefinger and regarding the Knights of the Vale and, obviously, we were clearly let in on that deception.
Wow, this has turned into an essay.
That’s a pretty big deception! Her stated reason was, paraphrasing, if you’d asked me earlier I would have told you not to march on Winterfell….something… something.
So, if I take what she says, she didn’t tell because she wasn’t asked earlier. I don’t know when exactly “earlier” is. So, Jon asked her right then and there “when will we have more men?” Sansa still didn’t mention that she’d summoned The Vale soldiers.
This is a strange equation, indeed. Until you factor in that she is competing with Jon, and using him too.
Thanks for the essay. 🙂 See ya later.
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
That’s a pretty big deception! Her stated reason was, paraphrasing, if you’d asked me earlier I would have told you not to march on Winterfell….something… something.
So, if I take what she says, she didn’t tell because she wasn’t asked earlier. I don’t know when exactly “earlier” is. So, Jon asked her right then and there “when will we have more men?” Sansa still didn’t mention that she’d summoned The Vale soldiers.
This is a strange equation, indeed. Until you factor in that she is competing with Jon, and using him too.
Thanks for the essay. 🙂 See ya later.
I can see why it may seem petty but I would have to disagree with this assessment.
By proclaiming Jon (and only Jon), by acknowledging Jon (and only Jon), the Northern lords have declared themselves to be Jon’s army. His and his only; not his and Sansa’s.
Now, Littlefinger is undoubtedly a dubious character but he is, more often than not (Ramsay excluded !), rather perceptive. And, back in Mole’s Town :
The distinction may sound petty to many since, as you pointed out, Jon would do anything for his sister… But can Sansa be truly certain of that ?
After all, there is a precedent. Robb too was KITN, he too had an army, he too was her brother and we have, I believe, no reason to doubt he too loved her deeply and sincerely, very much like Jon does.
Yet, when he had the opportunity to exchange her (and Arya’s but she was, unbeknownst to him, already gone) freedom against that of Jaime (a deal the Lannisters would have jumped at), he did not. She was just the “sister of the man with an army”, the KITN’s little sis’; not valuable enough a commodity to be worth trading. The very same lords who declared both Robb and Jon KITN did not have much of a problem letting her be beaten, humiliated and threatened on a daily basis for years if it meant not losing a tactical advantage.
Having an army loyal to you is not just an ego boost. It is a formidable and very concrete advantage. It gives you objective value. Your army will do anything to get you back if you are taken prisoner; they will not refuse a trade and let you rot in a cell or be victimised if they can help it.
Having an army loyal to your brother, on the other hand… Well, it does not necessarily do you a world of good.
ACME,
Rob offered exchanging Jaime for his sisters and recognition of the independence of the North. It was the Lannisters who refused.
It still seems petty and jealous to me.She knows the ice zombies are coming and Jon is the man to lead the fight and she still cares about titles.And she has power she has Winterfell and nobody will force her to marry again.Jon has literally given her no reason to distrust him,on the contrary he should be the one distrusting her.Being a Queen would put her in more danger and a bigger target on her back as we have seen how well Kings have fared in the show.Not to mention it’s exactly what littlefinger wants and she knows it
orange,
I know, right? I thought Sansa looked happy for Jon being named King in the North and Littlefinger shocked that they did. Sansa, to me, looked scared for Jon when she sees Littlefinger’s reaction in the hall.
Inga,
Wel, to be honest, no Head of State would let go of half his/her territory (which the North is to the Crown) over one hostage. Unless, maybe (big maybe) if said hostage is the Head of State him/herself.
I was talking about straightforward prisoner exchange or renegociations.
As Robb himself said :
Being merely related to someone who has an army is not much of a protection in and by itself.
Titles are not mere trinkets in Westeros, I believe. Everybody cares about them.
If Jon did not care about titles, he would not have looked so visibly shaken by his proclamation as “KITN”. After all, it is just a title. Same thing with Tyrion who appeared unquestionably moved when Daenerys made him “hand of the queen”, which is also just a title.
Titles are not just meaningless tokens; they are symbols of status and status have very pragmatic effects.
Status give people recognition, power, responsibility, influence, a certain amount of freedom and protection, and agency.
Being Hand of the Queen means being able to make decisions in her name if she is absent; it means one’s words carry extra weight during negociations/discussions/conflicts; it means having added value as a hostage (if it unfortunately comes to that).
Being KITN means having the allegiance of Northern lords and an army at your disposal and being the only person entitled to make decisions for the thousands of troops within that army.
For Sansa to wish for a title or any kind of official acknowledgment is not necessarily a matter of vanity or entitlement, in my opinion.
It is a dual matter of :
– being recognised for ther “battle scars” : she suffered at the hands of the enemies of the Starks and the North precisely because she is a Stark and a Northerner so it would not be superfluous for the very people in the name of whom she was abused to remember that;
– having some official say in the future proceedings and a potential for independent agency, would she need it.
As for the specific case of the North, again we may be conflagrating two things here.
The ice zombies are Jon’s mission, his purpose, his calling. I highly doubt Sansa would even dream of contesting his authority and abilities on the topic. However, said ice zombies are not the only sword of Damocles swinging over the North’s head at the moment.
Cersei will threaten the North long before any Night’s King does. One of her kingdoms has just declared its independence and she does not seem in the mood to withstand opposition in a spirit of mutual understanding and peaceful contemplation.
Furthermore, while the wights do not discriminate in terms of who they eat first, the Mad Queen does. She has been wanting Sansa’s head on a spike since season 4 and I doubt the loss of her last child and her subsequent coronation have in any way, shape or form, mellowed her.
When a crazy person with napalm and anger issues is after you, an army loyal to you can come in handy… Now, I guess many would assert that “Jon will protect his sister !”. I have no doubt that it would be Jon’s answer too. As a matter of fact, it is Jon’s answer to many things : “I’ll do it”.
It is one of his most profoundly admirable qualities (and possibly his greatest blind spot) : his willingness to help, to protect, to intervene, no matter the cost.
However, to the best of our understanding, he is not omnipotent. There are things he cannot do.
Remember the conversation he had with Sansa before the BOTB. His sister told him that were their forces to lose the battle, she would rather commit suicide than be taken alive by Ramsay. A bleek but honest statement. Jon’s immediate response was very typical of him : “I won’t ever let him touch you again. I’ll protect you, I promise”.
A sublime and unfathomably moving declaration, of course. And beyond a single shadow of a doubt, he meant every single word of it. Sincerity and love poured from him. Yet, it was objectively meaningless. If they had lost, how could he have protected her ? If he had been taken prisoner or killed, how could he have stopped Ramsay ?
“Jon will do it” is not the answer to everything (42 is). Firstly, because he is a mere mortal and as such, has limited -though remarkable- abilities. Secondly, because he already has an aweful lot to do. He has more on his plate than any Westerosi alive at the moment. He cannot be everywhere at once, poor soul.
To be fair, just because Littlefinger wants something does not automatically make said “something” inherently evil.
Littlefinger wanted Joffrey dead… I believe many of us were pretty pleased he got what he wanted in that case ^^
From which vantage point she was abducted by an alien spacecraft, subjected to a variety of medical experiments and eventually returned to Planetos in a form closely resembling Elvis Presley in a white glitter-spangled jumpsuit, bearing a sealed scroll that contains Obama’s actual birth certificate. Her first words upon arrival: “I buried Paul.”
ACME,
Littlefinger will do things, like helping to kill Joffrey, not because he thinks it’s the right thing to do but because it served his purpose for Joffrey to die. Ultimately, Littlefinger looks out for Littlefinger’s interests, not Sansa’s. And anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.
Indeed, Sansa is not an exception to the rule. Admittedly, she’s special to him in some way, however she’s still a piece on the board — a more valuable piece than others yet nevertheless a piece in his game. He sees her as the queen on his chessboard, and as such he’ll protect her to a point. However, should it be necessary he’ll sacrifice her in order to win the game.
ACME: I have to say I cannot entirely agree with that assessment.
Littlefinger is not, in my opinion so emotionally void, especially when it comes to Sansa. She is, to him, an asset (a beautiful young woman with a famous name), the child he wishes he had had with his lifelong love, the second coming of said lifelong love
I have to say that while I can agree that Littlefinger is not entirely ’emotionally void,’ I cannot concur with your assessment that he is motivated by love. Or, maybe that’s too harsh; didn’t Varys say ‘Littlefinger loves Littlefinger’…?!
His ‘lifelong love’ for Catelyn is emphasized several times, as if repeating that word would make it so, yet his actions belie this sentiment. While he certainly had some kind of attachment to her, an obsessive desire to possess her (indeed, your use of the word ‘asset’ to describe the quality of his attachment is telling, conveying the crude economy of his interpersonal transactions) so ruthlessly singleminded that he was willing to kill or orchestrate the killing of several of her family members in order to come closer to achieving this ambition, his ‘love’ impresses as shallow and corrupt.
There is something creepy about orchestrating the death of someone’s husband, then showing up with his bodily remains in a chest, and in the context of watching her grieve for him, immediately seizing the opportunity to declare ones love and move to suggest marriage (perhaps his ardor was aroused in that moment by the glow of her anguish, sweetened by the secret knowledge of how pivotal he’d been in causing that devastation…). In light of how much pain he’s deliberately caused to this person he supposedly ‘loves,’ his words strike a hollow discordant note, and his pithy advice that ‘Fate has given us this chance…’ is particularly facetious. Of course it’s not ‘fate’ that has caused this catastrophe in Cat’s life but none other than his aggressive machinations (ironically, he’d also initially promised to ‘keep Ned safe’ in King’s Landing on Cat’s behalf, while taking steps to eliminate him). His machinations, arguably more than those of any other, precipitate the War of the 5 Kings which culminates in the death of Cat herself. He kept no-one safe except himself.
Considering that Baelish has been responsible in one way or another for the deaths of Sansa’s father, mother and brother, taken together his actions and words are contradictory in the extreme and fail to compute to love. His pattern of decimating the life of someone he’s targeted, isolating that person from their loved ones and any alternative support structures, then stepping in to fulfill the role of those people whose murder he’s facilitated, can surely not be equated with notions of ‘love’ or ‘loyalty.’ This predatory modus operandi is repeated, for example, when he steps in to be Robyn Arryn’s ‘protector’ showering him with gifts, hugs and bonhomie in order to ingratiate himself, after having killed both of that child’s parents; or when he becomes Sansa’s ‘rescuer’ and pseudo-father figure after having effectively also caused the death of both her parents, driven a wedge through Sansa’s relationship to the Tyrells, thereafter framing her for murder and then delivering her to the Boltons.
Having this constellation in mind, I found the construction of the scene between Littlefinger and Sansa in the Winterfell Godswood particularly poignant and revealing, in that the set-up was a ‘callback’ to a previous one involving Catelyn and Ned, specifically when Catelyn comes to break the news to Ned that Jon Arryn, his foster father of sorts, has died – a murder for which we know in retrospect Baelish is responsible. Thus, in a way Baelish was always the third, though unseen, character in the Godswood (a bit like the biblical serpent in the garden!), and without understanding his role in the relationship triangles he creates, the picture is incomplete. Evoking that earlier scene in happier times before Baelish came into their lives, and with him ushered in the ‘Winter’, the current scene has an elegiac quality, opening with Sansa sitting alone slumped under the weirwood. She cuts a dejected figure, sitting by the sacred pool now frozen – Winter has come –where her father always used to sit in contemplation, pray, and clean Ice.
Sansa is alone in the world because of Baelish. Were it not for him, Ned might still be sitting there. Had he not instigated so much chaos, her family might not have been dispersed, and the order at Winterfell might still be intact, Lady and the rest of the direwolves might still be cavorting in the forest, and Hodor (or maybe Wyllis!) might still be bathing in a hot spring. Were it not for him, Catelyn might be entering screen left in order to counsel and comfort Sansa. Instead of Catelyn, however, Baelish enters stage left in order to stir the pot some more. Sansa looks up at his intrusion, barely suppressing a scowl. Since this is the spot where Ned always cleaned Ice after an execution (and ice is literally present in the form of the frozen pool!) one is also inevitably reminded of Ned’s own execution, ironically by his own sword (as an aside, Eddard Stark and Ser Arthur Dayne have this in common) – an execution again largely instigated by Baelish.
Having dispatched Ned, Catelyn, and her eldest brother Robb, Baelish has now set his sights on eliminating the next relative of hers who stands in his way… Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger — this is the new relationship triangle set up by Baelish. Triangles are unstable; they excite Baelish, as a self-espoused aficionado of chaos: two men facing off against each other forming the base of the triangle; one man must fall, so the other can take the prize (the woman at the apex of the triangle). We could even go further back to the triangle which began it all: namely, between Brandon Stark, Catelyn Tully, and Petyr Baelish. Littlefinger may have lost that duel and Brandon got the prize, but Littlefinger’s having the last laugh at the expense of the Stark family whom he blames for wounding his narcissistic ego. Baelish never really got over losing to Brandon, and in a way he’s been setting up all subsequent triangles in order to satisfy his enduring envy and vindicate himself.
It’s never really been about ‘Love’ for Petyr Baelish. In the final account, there is only one significant ‘L-‘ word in Littlefinger’s vocabulary vocabulary (well, besides ‘Littlefinger’!): ‘The realm, or the gods, or love — illusions. Only the ladder is real.’
Summer Child,
I love your take on this. Thank you!
Thank you! Since you are so appreciative of my musings surrounding Littlefinger’s loves for the Tully redheads, I hope you’ll enjoy this:
‘Oh Lysa Lysa quite contrary, you do make me oh so weary
Your sexual appetites know no limit, and honestly my heartless heart’s not in it
It’s getting hard to keep up this farce, and Sansa does have a younger arse
You’ve fulfilled your purpose, time to abort this circus
Now, now, don’t be a tedious weeper, what else did you expect from a brothelkeeper?
My love, let troubled thoughts flee your sweet silly head, if all goes to plan you’ll soon be
Dead
No need to say goodbye to your son, have no fear I’ll take care of him before I’m Done
In my mockingbird’s game you never had a chance, you’re out of your depth–
A fish out of water in this dance
So fly out the moondoor without further ado, and let that be your last thought —
I never loved you!’
(‘A Most Lamentable Lamentation — a Lovesong for Lysa’, lyrics by Littlefinger, music by Marillion)
Firannion,
OMG ! It all makes sense now ! ^^
Shadow Shifter,
I wholeheartedly agree with you and do not believe your assessment and mine are contradictory.
Littlefinger undoubtedly cares for his own interests; his wants are driven by them. There is no question about that. But just because something is in Littlefinger’s interest does not mean such “something” is, in and of itself, “contaminated” or should be run away from on the sole basis that it is part of Littlefinger’s constellation, so to speak.
The only way to deal efficiently with Baelish, in my opinion, is to know what one’s own interests are, try to identify his and see if they align. If they do (for a while, at least), good ! If they do no, run for cover.
Summer Child,
It is a genuinely fascinating take on the character… 🙂
Again, I never thought of Littlefinger as a “romantic” figure in any way, shape or form. I do not believe him to be motivated by “love” insofar as love can be defined as the feeling driving the lover to make his/her beloved happy. Other people’s happiness does not really factor in Baelish’s calculations.
However, I would argue that Littlefinger’s plan is less purely utilitarian, intellectual and rational than may initially appear. There is something fundamentally emotional at its core and it can be tapped into.
Littlefinger is the grand architect of the whole story : by killing Jon Arryn and having the finger of suspicion pointing at the Lannisters, he started the whole chain of events that led to the current chaos.
Nevertheless, I do not think he chose the Lannisters or the Starks out of personal animosity but out of commodity : they were the two families closest to Robert Baratheon (the Lannisters by marriage, the Starks by affection) and were therefore the most conveniently positioned to cause maximum trouble for the Crown and the status quo were a feud to erupt between them.
In my opinion, Littlefinger is motivated by revenge. Burning, sizzling revenge.
Not against the Starks, the Tullys or any family or person in particular, but against what Westerosis have called “order” for centuries : the House system, the delimitation of one’s life, possibilities, hopes and aspirations as determined by one’s birth and birth alone, etc.
He fell victim to that “order” as a young boy : he was sent to live with the Tullys, a grand house, as a favour to his father. He grew up with the Tully children, played with them, lived with them, learnt with them… Was made to believe he was part of the family, of that world.
But when he committed to that belief (by falling in “love” with Catelyn and daring to hope he could marry her someday), he was soundly and violently brought back to reality. Tullys do not marry Baelishes; they betroth Starks or Lannisters or Tyrells but not sons of sellswords !
He tried to fight (literally) that reality by challenging Brandon to a dual which resulted in a scar from collarbone to navel, a physical reminder that “order” will not tolerate people who set their views above their station, who forget their “natural” place in the world. To add insult to injury, he was then thrown out of Riverrun, as punishment for having overstepped his boundaries.
And apparently, the conclusion he reached after that episode was that the game is, for all intents and purposes, rigged. However, it very obviously did nothing to tame his ambitions; if anything, it fuelled them…
So, since he could not fight order, he decided to f*ck it (as he words it so poetically himself). And f*ck it he did, with abandon.
He put his talents for money-making to good use, serving Jon Arryn. He slowly climbed the ladder (the infamous ladder) to the point of becoming one of the wealthiest men in Westeros and the Master of Coin in the Small Council, the highest echelon a man of his birth could possibly reach by playing within the confines of the normal, traditional rules of the game. In a way not dissimilar to his fellow player’s, Varys.
But unlike the Spider, Littlefinger never intended to stop there.
In a world designed by and for the aristocracy, Littlefinger represents, I believe, the bourgeoisie. In our real-world history, the only way the bourgeoisie has ever risen to prominence was by dislodging the nobility, usually violently, whether it be through a revolution (like in 1789 in France) or by means of a hostile takeover (like during the Industrial revolution in England), thus creating a vacuum of power.
And this is exactly what Baelish has done : he threw the apple of discord, thereby creating the perfect conditions for the highborns to devour one another, using any means necessary. He bet on the aristocracy’s sense of self-entitlement and righteousness, on their inability to tolerate any injustice against them without starting wars over it, wars which send tens of thousands to their deaths and cause endless destruction and pain to millions. And his bet has so far paid off remarkably !
Popular discontent against the “old” way of governing has been steadily amplifying, the Baratheons are gone, the Martells are done for, the Tullys are just one man and his infant son, the Arryns are down to one boy, the Tyrells have no future, the Lannisters are only three and the Starks are 3.5/4 (who would have thought, back in season 3, that three years later the Starks would have more players left in the game than any other house ? :P)
If his intention was, as I believe, to overturn the political landscape of Westeros to such an extent “unusual suspects” like him (people of lower birth, women, etc) could ascend to the Iron throne in their own right, he has succeeded.
Far from me the desire to present Littlefinger as some sort of folk hero, defending the interests of the “common man”. Quite to the contrary, I would gladly argue his social consciousness is close to non-existent. However, it seems rather striking to me that Baelish is an agent of creative destruction : he said so himself to Sansa in the courtyard of the Eyrie (“If you want to build a better home, you have to destroy the old one”) and again in this season’s finale (“The past is gone for good. You can sit here mourning its departure or you can prepare for the future”). Tabula rasa.
In my opinion, Littlefinger’s revenge does not generally target certain individuals or families; it is global, all-encompassing. The old order as an entity, which “mistreated” him, must be taken down so he can thrive. So he can be and have “everything”.
Now did Littlefinger intend to precipitate Ned’s death ? I doubt it. Nobody foresaw Joffrey’s decision to behead the Warden of the North, possibly not even Joffrey himself until he took the decision on that very morning.
Did he betray Ned ? Of course, much like Varys (who admited he could free him from the cells but would not).
Was his betrayal motivated by personal vendetta ? I cannot get behind this idea, I am afraid. Ned was simply too unreliable, too dangerous a proposition for Baelish to bet on. His being Catelyn’s husband was certainly a bonus, though…
Did he love Catelyn ? I am sure he believes he did. He may have been misguided in this evaluation. However, he most certainly was obsessed with her. She was the root cause of what he became. It is through his teenage infatuation that he came to discover how the game truly worked, how under normal circumstances a highborn beauty would never lower herself to the extent of considering him a possible match, how his birth doomed him to live on the margin. Tolerated but not included. Catelyn was the point of ignition and the fire has not stopped burning since.
What about Sansa ? Hmm… She is part of that “everything” he yearns for, in my opinion. Another shot at a stunningly beautiful highborn young woman with red hair. Only this time, the game is in such disarray (thanks to him) that he actually has a chance; the hierarchy between them is blurred, they are on a much more even keel than he and Catelyn ever were. Furthermore, he has played the part of Pygmalion, with all the emotional and psychological ambiguity such a role entails. Finally, by surviving all that she has survived so far, she may have proven to be just resilient and tough enough to live through the birthing pangs of whichever new society will emerge from the chaos he has created.
He may not love her in the non-pathological sense of the term but what and who she is taps into the emotional core of his drive, of his ambition.
Is she a pawn in his game ? Of course ! Everybody is a piece in Littlefinger’s (and Varys’s) game. Some are kings, some are knights… Sansa is a pawn. A pawn who once took a rook for him and thus kept him in the game. A pawn he sent a knight to rescue. A pawn he could take risks protecting in the hopes of having her cross the board so as to become whichever piece s/he wants, including a Queen…
The ladder is real, the climb is real but so is the fall, if one takes too many risks.
ACME,
Very well-thought-out and explicated, as usual. It’s particularly interesting to me that you identify Baelish as Westeros’ exemplar of the rise of the bourgeoisie. Noticeably missing from GRRM’s worldbuilding (with the arguable exception of Tobho Mott and the rest of the elite armorers) are the artisan guilds who, along with merchants, came to wield considerable economic power and fueled the creation of a middle class in real-world medieval/Renaissance history. It does seem a bit of a gap in the socioeconomic structure.
Poor wee Petyr, going it alone against a stacked system! Ayn Rand would’ve considered him the hero of the story, methinks.
ACME,
Very nicely put! I agree with your concept of Baelish as a champion of the bourgeoisie. As both you and Firannion have implied, he’s a kind of anti-hero of the piece, without which the story would not move forward. His knack for insinuating himself into the action and making himself indispensable to a great many parties also explains why, though completely antisocial to his core, he can also paradoxically be a ‘force for good’ in society (as you’ve indicated, not all his actions have ‘evil’ outcomes, even when the intentions behind them may be dubious!). Moreover, this creative versatility also explains why he escapes accountability again and again. Repeatedly, people who’ve had an opportunity to kill him have refrained (e.g. beginning with Brandon Stark, then Ned pushing him up against the brothel wall ‘you’re a very funny little man’, Cersei’s demonstration of where power resides after he crowed about ‘knowledge is power’ and the ‘brother-sister’ issue, or lately when Sansa dangled the idea of ‘I could tell Brienne to cut you down…why shouldn’t I?’) The answer for why his life is spared in each case is usually that someone believes, because he’s made them believe, that he could still be of good use to them.
The theme of ‘agent of creative destruction’ is recapitulated by other characters too. Qyburn to Pycelle: ‘Sometimes before we can usher in the new, the old must be put to rest’; or Dany’s ‘They can live in my new world, or die in their old one.’
All very solid advice, albeit somewhat disingenuous, considering it’s her home he’s destroyed as the price for building himself a better one. Again, his psychopathy is evident: First he harms others, taking away things and people from them that they care about; then he dismisses their mourning for what they’ve lost, and encourages them to ‘get over it and get on with the programme (i.e. his agenda)’! He’s the mocking/cuckoo bird who profits by hostile takeover of other birds’ nests.
Regarding his emotional makeup, I believe we’re on the same page when you say:
In my opinion, though, envy not revenge is his primary emotion. Perhaps they are two sides of the same coin! He has an emotional core and certainly cares about how others make him feel. It’s just that he doesn’t really care about the feelings of others in turn, beyond understanding enough about those feelings in order to ‘know who a man is, what he wants, and how to move him.’
In one of Aidan Gillen’s interviews he expressed that Littlefinger has some remorse for sending her to Ramsay. Is that regret for how he overreached and almost lost his precious ‘pawn,’ or real concern for her suffering and his part in it? With respect to Mr Gillen’s interpretation, the way it’s written implies the former. Littlefinger seems to be more concerned with the urgency of consolidating his power than making reparations to Sansa (he probably thinks these two go hand-in-hand and he can ‘kill two birds with one stone,’ however there’s a subtle distinction as I touched on above). Disturbingly, he seems to be brushing off the rape and all she was subjected to, with an impatient attitude of ‘now that’s all done-and-dusted, let’s have a kiss and move on into the next phase of our lives together!’ (Also, why shouldn’t she be permitted to mourn? She’s just had to bury Rickon in the crypt next to her father!) A tad callous…
Your development of the chess analogy is fun! (Who did you mean by the ‘rook’? The lords of the Vale/the Eyrie?) I particularly like your idea of Sansa the pawn crossing the board to become his queen. It reminds me of this passage from the books:
“You would not believe half of what is happening in King’s Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear.”
“Three queens?” She did not understand.
Nor did Petyr choose to explain. Instead, he smiled…
‘How many tens of thousands had to die because Rhaegar chose your aunt?’…
How many are going to die, or have already died, because Baelish chose Sansa?
To quote your marvelous metaphor, the apple of discord has been thrown — It remains to be seen what/whom Sansa chooses in response!
@ACME I just want to say that I really enjoy reading your posts here, even if I sometimes disagree with some points.
THE DREAM.
Firannion,
I wholeheartedly agree that such an omission is a bit of a shame. “Professionals” and tradesmen were such a pillar of the medieval/Renaissance economical and social makeup that their quasi-absence from the books is, at times, glaring. But then again, poor George RR Martin ! He has already created such a rich, diverse and complex universe that to demand more would almost seem greedy ^^
Lisse,
It is very kind of you to say so. Glad my endless tirades do not bore you too much ^^
As for disagreeing with me, I certainly hope so ! Disagreement is the spice of conversation 😉
Funnily, this (very accurate, in my opinion) description of Baelish made me think of another in the books, about a different character :
Cersei talking about Varys in Tyrion, XII, A Clash of Kings
Varys and Baelish, order and chaos, two sides of a same coin 🙂
A “necessary evil”, this Littlefinger.
The genius of the show’s depiction of Baelish is how he hides in his “preys'” psychological blind spot, so to speak.
While his book counterpart is seemingly congenial and harmless, Aiden Gillen plays him as openly sycophantic and sinister. All the people who “use” him take pride in letting it be known they are aware of his ambitious nature. And he plays it up.
What they fail to recognise is how all-consuming his aspiration truly is. The idea that a man of such lower birth would even dare dream of the Iron throne is, to the nobility, downright inconceivable. So entrenched are they in their belief of their own natural “right”, they cannot fathom someone would contest it. Yet…
In a paradoxical way, he hides his ambition behind his ambition. Quite a risky but brilliant move.
I concur wholeheartedly. And what Qyburn, Daenerys and Baelish have in common is that they are all “illegitimate”, insofar as they would not be permited to be part of the game were normal rules to apply.
Women, low(er)borns, Citadel-rejects, children, eunuchs, dwarves, bastards, cripples (and broken things)… The misfits are the only ones left standing while the traditional players (the macho warriors, the firstborns, etc.) have been disposed of, in great part due to Littlefinger’s actions and schemes.
Very sound analysis !
To expand on what you, rightly I believe, call his psychopathy, it certainly seems Littlefinger is incapable of compassion, in the strong sense of the term. The emotions of others only affect him if said others are relevant to his sentimental environment.
The pain or turmoil of a stranger, of someone who does not appear on his emotional “radar” is entirely irrelevant to him. Borderline non-existent. In this regard, his treatment of Ros was enlightening : the distress she experienced as a result of the murder of an infant was not something Littlefinger could empathise with because Ros herself was insignificant to him. Her tears were merely a hindrance to his business; as such, he only felt annoyance at her pain and subtly threatened her into “getting over it”
It contrasts, I believe, with his reaction to Sansa’s pain.
I believe Mr Gillen to be right to think his character is remorseful over what happened to Sansa at the hands of Ramsay.
Firstly because Littlefinger made a mistake. For someone as ego-driven and proud of his intellect and abilities as Baelish is, to have slipped up in such a spectacular and consequential fashion must be cause for tremendous narcissistic anguish.
And secondly because the victim is Sansa. This woman matters to Baelish so her pain is “real” to him. It has consequences on him, it rebounds on him therefore he cares albeit in his own, pathological way. The fact that he, who rarely shies away from graphic descriptions and long-winded monologues, recoiled at the idea of describing what Ramsay might have done to his beloved “pawn” seemed, to me, to indicate that there was a certain form of empathy at play albeit one, as you said, entirely self-motivated.
Ha ha ha ! I think you perfectly captured Baelish’s inner monologue in this moment ^^ “No time for this sentimental, nostalgia bullsh*t, my love. We’ve got kingdoms to conquer.”
However, to be fair to the brothel keep, there is something about Sansa in the snow that seems to make him uncharacteristically spontaneous, almost reckless. This combo is like catnip to him; he simply cannot help himself, no matter the risks and impropriety.
Thanks ! (Yes, there is something about the Eyrie, this lone castle amidst the clouds, that reminded me of a tower/rook. And Sansa certainly secured that win for him)
I had the same book passage in mind ^^
Was this the face that launch’d a thousand ships / And burnt the topless towers of Ilium ?
However, in regards to
Call me grotesquely optimistic but I am not overly worried on this matter.
Summer Child,
Oh my goodness, that’s just so perfect! Thanks! 🙂
It’s a way of telling a lie by telling the truth, or taking off the mask without exposing oneself! Hiding in plain sight, as it were…
That’s an interesting observation. In the same vein, I’ve noticed how several characters admit that Littlefinger can’t be trusted, yet in the same breath go on entertaining him (chief culprit: Sansa!) In addition to gambling on people’s projected assumptions, another reason for why this paradoxical ploy of his works is that Littlefinger, a social chameleon, instinctively tends to take on the characteristics of whichever particular milieu he’s moving in (of late, he’s doing a deft job of mirroring and amplifying Sansa’s insecurities). In effect, he mirrors those around him, so all they see is a reflection of themselves, allowing him to blend into his local environment and move under the radar.
It’s important to realise that this is not only a skill delegated at will, but a way of being which compels him. Otherwise stated, he can’t help doing this, because he is quintessentially a shifty individual without a reliable, consistent sense of self, or what is typically meant by ‘integrity.’ You touched on this yourself in your excellent example showing how it was possible for him to grossly compartmentalize his stance towards Ros’s and Sansa’s pain respectively, whereas someone like Ned would not have been capable of such a jarring contradiction, as evidenced by his willingness to grant mercy to the children of his enemies. Littlefinger’s abnormal capacity for ‘compartmentalization’ (which, as I’ve previously discussed, also allows him to conspire against someone’s loved ones, frequently bringing about their deaths whether directly or indirectly, whilst simultaneously declaring his love for that person) implies a certain ‘flakiness’ of character. A note on ‘flaky’ consistency: if something is infinitely subdivided, it inevitably crumbles… potentially a threatening state of affairs (although, to be fair, I suppose Hotpie might argue there’s a time and place for ever pie, including the flaky pastry…!) Thus, the whole concept of ‘integrity’ is thrown into question. Alternatively, one might say that the mark of Littlefinger’s integrity– in the sense of him ‘being true to himself’– is a pristine lack of integrity.
So, among the unctuous, Littlefinger oozes charm; similarly in ambitious circles, he pronounces his ambition; around Cersei he can’t resist flaunting his vanity and spite; with Varys his urbane bitchiness (like two queens trading ‘burns’ over the throne!) and a morbid preoccupation with the presence and/or absence of genitals which the rival eunuch’s company inspires; with Lysa a certain flair for the dramatic; with his whores his sleaziness; and — more counterintuitively — with Ned his honesty; and with Sansa his innocence and vulnerability.
Regarding Ned’s dilemma:
A Game of Thrones – Eddard V
“Lord Petyr,” Ned called after him. “I … am grateful for your help. Perhaps I was wrong to distrust you.”
Littlefinger fingered his small pointed beard. “You are slow to learn, Lord Eddard. Distrusting me was the wisest thing you’ve done since you climbed down off your horse.”
Then:
A Game of Thrones – Eddard XIV
As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned’s dagger from its sheath and shoved it up under his chin. His smile was apologetic. “I did warn you not to trust me, you know.”
Here, Littlefinger homes in on Ned’s famous ‘blind spot.’ By initially being straightforward with Ned, selectively confiding in him and telling the truth about himself, qualities he knows Ned values in a man, Littlefinger demonstrates his trustworthiness and gains a measure of Ned’s regard– even if the truth he’s shared with Ned is that he’s untrustworthy! To Ned it’s inconceivable that a dishonest man would actually be so forthcoming about his dishonor, since he expects (because his mindset precludes him from easily fathoming duplicity and therefore leads him to assume that all men are like him) that men who dishonor themselves should be overcome with shame, and would therefore naturally attempt to cover up any such ‘shadiness.’ As a result, he doesn’t take Littlefinger’s threats-disguised-as-banter seriously. However, he’s never met an animal like Littlefinger who wears his shade in the sun. This proves his undoing.
‘Cat’nip? ha ha. Agreed, she is his ‘blind spot,’ as he is hers. As I suggested above, he is beguiled by her unguardedness and innocence into being likewise unguarded and innocent (well, as ‘innocent’ as someone like him is able to be, perhaps expressing itself more in the sense of shamelessness rather than blamelessness). You mentioned ‘a certain form of empathy’ which leads him to identify with those qualities in Sansa and let his guard down around her. Because of this dynamic, even as he’s educating her in the ways of the world, it never enters his head that this guileless snow maiden poses any real threat to him.
Regarding the romantic figure of ‘Snow Sansa,’ I can’t but help thinking of the image of Sansa in her dour, homespun winter hood with a flurry of snowflakes about her ivory face, doggedly traipsing behind Ramsay on the Winterfell ramparts like the grim reaper heralding his fate. To his potential detriment, Baelish — similar to his namesake ‘Bael’ — sees her in overly flowery terms as the blooming of the winter rose he’d like to pluck and place in a vase beside the throne. Your persuasive argument notwithstanding regarding Littlefinger’s capacity for wounded feelings akin to remorse in the face of Sansa’s sexual violation at the hands of Ramsay Bolton, I would posit that a deeper reason for his recoiling at Sansa’s challenge that he articulate the details of her sordid ordeal is first-and-foremost that he is unwilling to stomach the full reality of her fall from ‘maidenliness,’ which would compromise the ideal picture of her archetypal innocence so important to Littlefinger’s narrative of himself. He is especially reluctant to ‘go there’ considering her despoiling came at the hands of another man which would naturally arouse his envy (she’s his innocent to defile, should he so choose, after all). Ironically, although it’s often touted that Littlefinger is training Sansa to be more like him, he inevitably slips into the indulgence of treating her as an audience to his monologues and accessory to his greatness, instead of recognizing her as a student and potential player in her own right. Ned’s caution of Robert regarding another of Winterfell’s rare winter roses might equally apply to Littlefinger’s vision of Sansa: ‘You saw her beauty, but not the iron beneath.’ Yet, with the winter rose comes winter, and winter is coming for all– including sweet summer child Petyr still caught up in the daydreams and songs of his childhood:
‘The Maiden dances through the sky,
she lives in every lover’s sigh.
Her smiles teach the birds to fly,
and gives dreams to little children.’
— The Song of the Seven
I agree wholeheartedly about this principle; however, I would exclude Sansa as a culprit ^^
As a matter of fact, I would put Sansa in a special category along with Varys and Ros (and possibly Jon) as this rather minute group of people who know or sense Littlefinger to be “one of the most dangerous men in Westeros” (as defined by the Spider).
This is, I believe, the crux of the matter.
While all of his targets/associates do not identify Baelish as trustworthy, they fail to take notice of his formidable dangerosity. They cannot fathom that this man of all people, this physically non-assuming man, this socially disadvantaged man, this brothel keep, this Master of Coin (a “grubby job” according to Lord Royce), this great-grandson of a Braavosi could possibly be any genuine threat to them.
“Funny little man” said Ned Stark… Contempt practically oozes from those three words. Funny little men are not frightening; only dangerous men are.
To “know” Littlefinger is not to distrust him; it is to fear him.
Ros knew him, Varys knows him and I believe Sansa does too.
It is of course a very personal interpretation however I cannot imagine Sansa left the Eyrie unaware of Baelish’s formidable dangerosity. She saw him push the woman he married through the Moon Door which was, in a by and itself, a rather significant clue. But, above all, she witnessed his entirely unnecessary cruelty towards Lysa : he was not content simply murdering her, he psychologically destroyed her in the last seconds of her existence. He turned everything she had ever believed in and hoped for to ashes for no other reason than his desire to do so. There was an element of emotional savagery in the build-up to “Only Cat” (or “your sister”, in the show) that should strike fear in the heart of any living human being.
I am, of course, not a specialist but I believe there to be noticeable differences between being able to orchestrate someone’s death, being able to directly cause someone’s death, being able to look into the eyes of someone while murdering them and being able to witness all hope and joy drain from someone’s face before murdering them.
Most of Littlefinger’s targets know him capable of the first two; I highly doubt they consider him savage enough to partake in the latter pair. Sansa is aware he is well-versed in all four. She may be one of the few people who recognise him as the lethal man he truly is. She is cognisant of the fact that there is an extremely real risk in associating with him.
Which may beg the question : why doesn’t she just get rid of him ?
Several hypothesis may be formulated : she abides by the old Godfather adage (keep your friend close, your enemies closer); she knows keeping him physically at bay will do little to stop most of his endeavours and schemes; she is aware of his tremendous wealth and plans to benefit from some of it; she still holds a fascination for her Pygmalion and believes he can serve her interests and help her navigate the murky waters ahead; etc.
Quite frankly, I would bet on a mix of all those and more.
As far as book Littlefinger is concerned, I agree with you enthusiastically. He does not appear to think highly of his sweetling’s abilities. Show Littlefinger, on the other hand…
While he does most certainly appear to respond to a certain vision of virginal purity as demonstrated by his “snowy Sansa” fetish, he seems to enjoy equally the less “otherwordly” side of her. The look the two of them exchange at the end of the trial scene in the Eyrie was, in my opinion, rather telling : Sansa convincingly lied to make him the hero of the piece, her rescuer and Lysa’s doting husband who selflessly and hopelessly attempted to save his beloved spouse from herself, thereby sparing him the Moon Door and securing his position in the Vale. Symbolically, she lost some of her innocence, some of her purity. Yet, Littlefinger’s look afterwards was not one of either surprise or dejection but of pride, pleasure and intrigue.
It was only reinforced by their later encounter. Baelish bluntly asserted her loss of wide-eyed, maidenlike wonderment (“First time I saw you, you were just a child, a girl from the North come to the capitol for the first time. Not a child any longer”) and asked her why she had saved him. Her initial response was to imply she had done it out of kindness (“they would have thrown you through the Moon Door if they found you guilty”) but he immediately rejected it. The one answer he would accept was that, ultimately, she was motivated by her own survival (“What would they have done with me ?”). A much less innocent concern only emphasised by her bold “I know what you want”. With this simple statement, she let him know that all his speeches had not fallen on deaf ears and that she was willing, if need be, to turn his teachings against him. And he did not appear repulsed. To the contrary.
In the same vein, in the Winterfell crypt, Sansa rather pointedly reminded him that, by the time they would meet again, she would be a “married woman” (aka not a maid anymore) still Littlefinger showed no sign of distress. Au contraire, he appeared rather serene, pleased even, at the prospect.
Therefore, I doubt his discomfort at imagining and phrasing the kind of treatment Ramsay had subjected her to was motivated by a general embarrassment over the loss of her virginity.
Undoubtedly, there is something about Sansa’s purity that appeals to Littlefinger on the show. Her bouts of innocence, of pure emotional spontaneity do stir something in this cynical and calculated man. However, his fascination appears only to have grown in strength as said purity has been further mixed with a particular streak of experience, of ruthlessness, of world-weariness.
Of danger, one might even say. In my opinion, show Littlefinger is infinitely more cognisant of the potential threat Sansa poses than his book counterpart. But show Littlefinger is a gambler, ultimately; a man who is willing to risk everything to get everything. Such a risk is, to him, invigorating.
Catnip again ^^
Summer Child,
On slightly tangent note, I was reminded of the parallel you drew between Lyanna and Sansa and how remarkably accurate you were.
Assuming Lyanna was not abducted by Rhaegar (as fair assumption, I believe), she chose to risk it all for the Targaeryen. She knew it was a dangerous pick but was willing to put herself on the line anyway. However, eventually, she was not the only one to pay the ultimate price.
If we are to believe Starks are characterised by their attachment to their pack, by their sense of belonging and duty to their clan, Lyanna proved a “bad” Stark. She put her own desires and longings before those of her family which resulted in a bloody and murderous war between the one she chose (Rhaegar) and her pack.
Sansa is in a very similar situation, the comparison being encouraged and reinforced by the scene in the Winterfell crypt in season five, as your very pertinently singled out : a dark-haired Sansa picking up the feather left for her aunt by Robert Baratheon.
Sansa, like her aunt, is making what she knows to be a highly risky bet by continuing to associate with Littlefinger. As I stated above, I firmly believe she knows him to be highly dangerous but she is willing to take that chance.
However, she may not be aware that her making that bet, so to speak, is almost more perilous for the people around her than for herself.
Hopefully, she will manoeuvre her way through that situation better than her aunt did. Considering that she has close to all of the bright-eyed romanticism she sported a few years ago, I have high hopes ^^
Now that you mention it, isn’t it interesting that the token Lyanna symbolically refused, and which Sansa now literally claims, is a feather– the feather symbolising Littlefinger’s self-chosen sigil the Mockingbird, as well as the Eyrie which is literally a raptor’s nest, ‘the little dove’ herself, and more ominously Varys’s ‘little birds’ and those which bring ‘dark wings, dark words’ (beginning with the first time we were introduced to that maxim, when Cat received those dual poisonous missives, which unbeknownst to her would ultimately be traceable to Littlefinger, and which sealed her and Ned’s fate the moment she unsealed them). On the other hand, let’s not forget there’s a bird of another feather lurking in the wings on the periphery of their vision, one with a uniquely bird’s-eyed view who’s yet to be factored into Sansa and Littlefinger’s fowl/foul equation: namely the three-eyed-raven!
Littlefinger only serves Littlefinger’s interests. Either Sansa is naive, or arrogant enough to think she can outmanipulate him. It’s probably a combination of the two. If she truly recognised him for the lethal man he is, she would sideline him. Perhaps due to her vanity, she’s basking in the reflected glow of his attraction to her, falsely assuming that selfsame attraction confers an exceptional immunity on her. I also think there’s a certain blind spot at work on Sansa’s part; namely, she’s so taken in by his attraction to her that she’s overlooked the extent of her own attraction to him! Furthermore, it’s one thing to ‘know’ someone is dangerous, and another thing entirely to act in accordance with that knowledge. It’s like toying with a snake one knows is poisonous, fancying oneself a snake charmer after dabbling in a few lessons. Even more foolhardy to persist with such a reptile, if one has previously witnessed the devastating neurotoxic effects of its venom once it gets its fangs into someone. Sansa should know better, especially, as you point out, after everything she’s been ‘privileged’ to witness. As a case in point, your analysis of his sadism, citing the case of Lysa, is spot on. In a show replete with savage deaths, no other murder has been quite as savage.
But, hey, perhaps Sansa fancies herself as Clarice Starling in a game of cat-and-mouse (or rather wolf-and-snake) vs. Hannibal Lecter, so let the games begin!
I like your nuanced qualification. The key is the phrase ‘purity mixed with a streak’ — tainted rather than ruined. When he arranged the marriage for his own political expediency, he obviously factored in the loss of her virginity as a necessary price to seal the deal. What he failed to anticipate was just how comprehensively Ramsay would take over her mind and body. That’s not something Baelish is likely to enjoy contemplating. As I’ve previously noted, he’s motivated by envy, so he would not relish the prospect of another man having achieved such far-reaching influence over (essentially a hostile occupation of) what he considers to be his territory. When Sansa tells him she can still feel Ramsay in her body, that’s more ‘titillation’ than he bargained for, and he’d prefer not to dwell on the full extent of it (even the highest-quality catnip can become cloying in large doses…). I think what he’s feeling in that moment is closer to repugnance tinged with regret, rather than ’embarrassment’ or anything approximating authentic remorse (although you doth protest, I surmise you do indeed have a more ‘romantic’ view of his emotional depth than I do in this respect!). While we’ve been primed to expect Sansa to internalise Littlefinger’s lessons and turn them against him, the one from whom she’s learned the hardest lessons has been her husband. I would call him her ‘late’ husband, however that wouldn’t be psychologically accurate. Although she tried to counter his prescient parting words ‘I’m part of you now’ with bravado by saying ‘All memory of you will disappear,’ that isn’t strictly true, is it? Ramsay has left an indelible mark beyond the loss of her maidenhood, and this is what I meant by the drastic loss of ‘maidenliness,’ rather than merely signifying the rite of passage as marked by the physical disruption of the hymenal membrane. In the final account, while Littlefinger might be turned on by Sansa being a little more like him, he’d not welcome her being too like him either, and he’d definitely prefer she not take after Ramsay!
In light of her ongoing attachment to Littlefinger, one might say the same about Sansa!
I’ve taken the liberty of bolding what I consider to be the most important insight, one which perfectly encapsulates my frustration at and criticism of the dangerous game Sansa is playing, potentially at her family’s expense. While she may manoeuvre adroitly and emerge unscathed, I fear the rest of her family might not be so lucky, and they will be the ones to bear the full brunt of her reckless dalliance (actually, unlike her father and eldest brother, Lyanna might also have emerged unscathed, had she not died in childbirth).
I had not noticed this symbolism at all; bloody good catch sir/madam ! ^^
However, just to be annoying and considering the type of individual Robert was, it is highly probably (quasi-certain really) that the bird this feather belonged to was hunted down and killed. Sansa collecting the remains of dead poultry may not have such positive echoes for Littlefinger after all.
Essence of nightshade : a drop dissolved in wine will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking; three drops will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep; ten drops and the sleep does not end.
Poisons, toxins, venoms… Most have pharmacological and therapeutic uses, as well as purely lethal ones. Just as there is what Tyrion rightly identified as “the right kind of terrible”, there also is “the right amount of poison” (forgive my facetiousness)^^
The question therefore becomes which exact quantity of Baelish’s venom can Sansa, her family, the North and ultimately Westeros absorb so as to benefit from its potency instead of falling victim to it…
Coincidentally, it is not dissimilar to the “agent of creative destruction” point.
Qyburn’s disregard for any ethical frame has led him to both saving Jaime’s life where a less adventurous maester’s abilities wouldn’t have sufficed and creating such an abomination as the new, “improved” Gregor Clegane. Right kind of terrible, wrong kind of terrible.
Littlefinger’s own brand of pathological and utterly asocial nature might be considered to have “positive” social repercussions, albeit incidental, insofar as the crisis he engineered has allowed for new players to emerge in a way that the former, stable system never would have permited. Cripples, bastards and broken things now have a shot in Westeros. Like forest fires, utterly devastating events that have the potential to destroy entire ecosystems, are indispensable for new, younger trees to take roots.
There is no doubt in my mind that Sansa’s continued interaction with Littlefinger is partly motivated by a rather bizarre and intriguing fascination for the Birdman; nevertheless were she only to rely on what she perceives to be Baelish’s “love” (very broadly and pathologically speaking) for her to feel sufficiently secure so as to engage with the slimy reptile that is Littlefinger, I very much like you would consider her entirely foolish and would be baffled by her idiotic bravado.
However, I cannot dismiss the fact that she has very real, very concrete weapons at her fingertips : not only does she know he killed Lysa, she is also cognisant of his involvement in Jon Arryn’s murder, of his participation in a regicide and of the fact that the Boltons never ambushed them on the way to the Fingers. It truly would (will ?) not take much effort for her to have the mocking bird executed. Lord Royce would probably jump at the glorious opportunity.
This safety net allows me not to be particularly worried over the future of House Stark as an entity or that of its members. In relation to Littlefinger, at the very least (and indeed the very most).
Ha ha ha ! Touché !
The problem with Littlefinger is that, while he is not by any stretch of the imagination a romantic figure, he does perceive himself as such. One might even argue that he once truly was : the boy who took songs and ballads to heart and challenged to a duel a man twice his size and three-times his weight in the name of his “ladylove” was rather clearly not motivated by nefarious schemes.
The man he has become carries the scar left on that boy. But I digress…
What if the source of Littlefinger’s distaste at the mere idea of relating what Sansa experienced at the hands of Ramsay was incredibly pragmatic ? Assuming part of his endgame is to form some relationship with Sansa, be it marriage or companionship “with benefits” (and now I am left wondering how to word “Netflix and Chill” in the more flowery language of the Westerosis. Damn English for not being my mother tongue !), one could infer Littlefinger was dejected by the appaling mistreatment she was subjected to as it would certainly render her that much less receptive to any new attempt at seduction and physical intimacy.
It adds a hurdle on his way to make his “pretty picture” come to life, which causes him pain. Ricochet “empathy” by means of selfishness ?
I am ambiguous on this matter, I have to confess.
There is of course no denying that she will forever carry the memory of what Ramsay did to her; such a traumatic experience is not simply walked away from.
However, I would argue that the most potent of Ramsay’s crimes, in Sansa’s eyes, was the murder of her baby brother. The director (and possibly the writers) made a point of having Sansa see her youngest sibling’s corpse and then demand, in the coldest of voices, where Ramsay was, thereby creating a direct correlation between Rickon’s fate and Sansa eliminating Bolton.
Therefore the most powerful lesson she learnt from Ramsay might actually have been collateral : she punished the man who killed her brother and she liked it… For the first time in her life, she successfully took revenge on someone who hurt her family (her spontaneous attempt against Joffrey, when he showed her her father’s head, was stopped in its tracks by Sandor Clegane) and it felt good.
“Given the opportunity, what do we do to those who’ve hurt the ones we love ?” once asked Littlefinger…
As far as reckless, family-unit damaging dalliances are concerned, Sansa has been there and done that with Joffrey “more-inbred-than-a-sandwich” Baratheon. With her father’s approval !
This is where the parallel between Sansa and her aunt is a game of shadows with all the distorsion it implies.
Lyanna, to the best of our understanding, had lived a rather serene, peaceful life until she made the choice to chance it all on the Targaryen prince, with the tragic ripple effect we know. A volatile and innocent girl throwing caution to the wind in the name of romance.
Sansa, conversely, has not been blessed with such tranquil childhood which, in this case, may help. I believe her to have accumulated enough experience to pull the trigger soon enough to avoid disaster. I can imagine it being a close call (because drama is good ! ^^) and I certainly hope it will be well-motivated but the title of Harper Lee’s masterpiece will very probably resonate in Westeros.
That’s funny! So, while Littlefinger intends to pluck her, she may just end up plucking him! It’s apt that she collects the prize feather in the crypt, the place where Littlefinger ‘arranged’ for so many of her family members to be sent, and fittingly being the place where Robert propositioned Ned (again indirectly ‘arranged’ by Littlefinger) for both Sansa’s hand in marriage to Joffrey, as well as his ‘hand’ in a way, namely his allegiance as ‘Hand’ in following him on a last southron adventure, which ended for Ned as it began — in the crypt.
Wonderful point. Not facetious at all! In fact, the greek ‘pharmakon’ has the equivocal meaning of at once ‘poison,’ ‘remedy,’ and ‘scapegoat’– of which much has been made in the history of philosophy. From an evolutionary standpoint, the genes conferring an antisocial/psychopathic tendency would likely have been eliminated, were there not some associated salutary aspect for society riding on them.
Yes, although small in stature he’s definitely apt to get a little carried away by the size of his fantasies! Yet that child was always less ‘innocent’ of a character than he played, particularly when it came to demonstrating remorse once a scheme had backfired on him. For what it’s worth, this is George RR Martin’s suggestive take on the character:
A Game of Thrones – Catelyn IV
He rose and gestured brusquely to the guards. “Leave us.” The men departed. “You were not mistreated, I trust,” he said after they had gone. “I gave firm instructions.” He noticed her bandages. “Your hands …”
Catelyn ignored the implied question. “I am not accustomed to being summoned like a serving wench,” she said icily. “As a boy, you still knew the meaning of courtesy.”
“I’ve angered you, my lady. That was never my intent.” He looked contrite. The look brought back vivid memories for Catelyn. He had been a sly child, but after his mischiefs he always looked contrite; it was a gift he had. The years had not changed him much.
English not your mother tongue?! I wouldn’t have guessed. You are a most accomplished writer! I think you’re right on point here, and it ties in with your ‘pharmakon’ idea. In Littlefinger’s plans for Sansa at present, he needs her alive and receptive to him, meaning he has to carefully titrate the ‘poison’ so it’s still pleasurable for her and doesn’t drive her away. Needless to say, in pharmaceutical terms, Ramsay was a bit of an overdosage, from which Littlefinger along with Sansa is still suffering the adverse effects !
Agreed. As you point out, time and time again she’s been forced to watch from the sidelines as those she loves are executed, from Lady to her father, mother, and brothers. Through her time with the Boltons, made worse by being held captive in her own home, Sansa learned a stark, ‘northern’ lesson in survival, if you will, which has brought her down to earth with a resounding smack. I’m not sure that’s where Baelish likes her; he’d prefer to have her on a pedestal, with her head in the clouds, lest she catch sight of the grubby things he’s actually doing on the ground. Anticipating Ramsay playing his sick game of false hope with Rickon and Jon, and feeling powerless to alter the outcome, has been the final straw for her. Henceforth, I don’t think Sansa will easily tolerate that feeling of helplessness and passivity again. Ironically, she might end up actualising Baelish’s advice against him:
” You’ve been a bystander to tragedy since the day they executed your father,” he tells Sansa in season five. “There’s no justice in the world, not unless we make it. You loved your family, avenge them.”
As ‘reckless dalliances’ go, the women do not have a monopoly! In fact, a major miscalculation — though it was done for ‘pure’ reasons — has been Ned’s loyalty in all things to the point of foolishness to his friend Robert, often at the expense of his own family’s interests. The singular instance where a person was able to trump this loyalty was Lyanna, in extracting the promise she did from Ned, which necessarily entailed a measure of treachery to his friend and king in order to keep.
Nice catch. If the mockingbird in Harper Lee’s case symbolised innocence, then Sansa’s mockingbird has more or less already been killed! After spending time with the flayed men, who flayed her, so to speak, body and soul, most of her illusions have been peeled away, and she has very little time left for ‘songs’ and ‘pretty pictures,’ leaving the Mockingbird very little to work with. That’s why he’s cleverly exploiting what’s left: her fears for her own survival and self-determination. Let’s hope the allusion to Harper Lee is a bit more literal!
Thank you for your thoughtful and delightful responses. I always enjoy reading your piquant reworkings of tired dishes– you get the ‘poison’ ingredients just right!