Sophie Turner and Aidan Gillen on the Game of Thrones Season 6 Finale

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The cast of Game of Thrones has plenty to discuss with the epic sixth season coming to a close Sunday night. Expressing their excitement for the growth of the series, Sophie Turner relishes in Sansa’s victory at The Hollywood Reporter. With Vulture, Aidan Gillen (Littlefinger) discusses his character’s influence and the slick conniver’s motives.

Episode 9 of the newest season featured a key moment for Sansa. After finally getting revenge on Ramsay Bolton, Turner says:

There’s a feeling of rooting for her. This is something everyone wanted out of Sansa. She had certainly been building up to this over the past five seasons, her first kill. But I think what people should be maybe a bit wary of is how much she seemed to enjoy it. I have to give a lot of credit to Miguel [Sapochnik], the director of the episode. That was kind of his idea, the look back in, where it lasts a little bit too long. I think Sansa could maybe develop a taste for killing. Who knows. It could be a little worrying, for sure.

She also reflects on her complicated relationship with her half-brother cousin Jon Snow:

I think Sansa trusts Jon to make morally right decisions, but I’m not sure if she trusts him with the kind of political things. I don’t know if she trusts Davos completely, and he’s kind of his advisor. I think it’s more about being open with each other, like with Sansa writing to Littlefinger for the Knights of the Vale. I think Jon means they need to be more open with each other and tell each other what’s going on — and it’s very frustrating for Sansa to hear him say that. She knows he means it more about her than it is him talking about himself. And he really needs to trust her.

Sansa Jon Davos

Allies Littlefinger and Sansa also shared a look during the White Wolf’s coronation. Turner offers her insight:

As you say, she rejects him in the beginning, but there’s definitely something in her that’s… it’s kind of a jealousy toward Jon. He’s getting all of the credit for basically Sansa saving his ass. Obviously he played a huge part in the Battle of the Bastards, but Sansa really saved him. There’s a bit of jealousy there. She looks at Littlefinger knowing that he would have put her as Queen in the North, and given her the credit she deserves. I don’t think she’s gunning for the Iron Throne anytime soon, but she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.

For more, including how she thinks Sansa will react to the revelation of Jon’s mother, head on over to The Hollywood Reporter!


After hearing Turner’s take on the subtle glance between Sansa and Littlefinger, Aidan Gillen reviews his actions with Vulture.

We only had a few scenes with Littlefinger in season six. But one thing he was trying to do consistently was sow some kind of seed of disquiet with Sansa in terms of Jon, and how closely related they really are, and how valid he really is as a king, or a leader, or a brother, while at the same time encouraging what might be her own position. There’s a certain amount of, “I told you so. Is this what you want? Can you trust him?” And all of that has been said anyway, in the previous scene. But there’s also a degree of excitement, because the lords are pledging their allegiance to Jon Snow, and we didn’t necessarily know it would go that way. Speaking for Littlefinger, it was one of those moments where you go, “Fuck! Maybe this is a bigger thing than I thought it would be. How are we going to deal with this?” Given that he enjoys chaos and uncertainty and the thrill of all of that, it was a big moment for him.

Will Sansa be tempted by Littlefinger’s promises of power or will she remain true to the new King in the North? Gillen dissects Littlefinger’s impact on Sansa:

She really is becoming more like me. More Baelish–like in the way she’s operating, and the fact that she’s operating at all. She has become a player under my tutelage, and that’s what I wanted. There’s a scene way back when we’re discussing a battle, a scene with Cersei, and we’re talking about Stannis and the Boltons, and letting the two of them tear each other apart, and coming in at the last minute with the Knights of the Vale. Who’s to say that Sansa wasn’t thinking of doing something like that as well? Let them kill each other. Again, it’s not likely, but not impossible.

Has our little bird really become that mischievous?

LF and Sansa

He also touches on the possibilities of his betrayal of Ned Stark coming back to haunt him:

I guess in times like that, it would be difficult to know what information would be widely, readily, quickly available. By the time a story gets out, there might be 40 different versions of it. And if you are a manipulative, political type, you’ll make sure to get your counterstory out immediately. And then you can assume there’s some leeway — if you ever are confronted with it, you can say, “Yeah, but it wasn’t quite the way you heard it.” I very obviously held a dagger to Ned Stark’s throat, which as television viewers saw in massive close-up, but the part of the story that’s the most damning evidence of betrayal — my holding a dagger to his throat — may not be out there. Everybody didn’t see it. But yeah, things come home to roost, and we are approaching the endgame, and things are going to get trickier for everyone, but particularly for people who have spun webs of lies and deceit.

Gillen delves more into the mind of his sinister character at Vulture!

Variety spoke with Turner, and asked for her opinion on people thinking Sansa and Jon might get together. She says:

Oh my god, really? I haven’t actually heard that. Stranger things on “Game of Thrones” have happened… Maybe politically, it makes sense, I honestly don’t know how I would feel about that, I’d have to speak to the producers about that one. Honestly, what I think is going to happen – and I don’t know where the story is going to go, but I think Jon and Daenerys are going to end up together, probably. I feel like Jon and Sansa would be a strange one, especially because isn’t it considered not legitimate if you haven’t consummated the marriage, and I really don’t think either of them would be particularly up for that. It would be very difficult to do that. [Laughs.]

How do you think this Sansa/Littlefinger alliance will fare? Will she be throwing another repugnant man to the dogs? Let us know below!

506 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. I’m actually hoping the Petyr Baelish/Sansa stark plan works out actually. I like darth Sansa and her learning to play the game from him is just great!

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    2. Just leave Jon and his man bun in peace please.He has gone through so much shit and will go through more with the ice zombies he doesn’t need a backstabbing sister-cousin on top of that.Not that I believe anything of what they are saying but just in case.Also they are wrong lol

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    3. “…she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.”

      Muah hahahahahaha

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    4. I really don’t understand what any of these people have been saying since episode 10 aired. Literally like the exact opposite things happened in episode 10 from what they’ve been saying.

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    5. orange,

      Maybe that’s intentional to keep suspense for next season. Interviews are not always 100% correct and even these two do not completely match. It often happens that they overdramatize the stuff, but the actual resolution is pretty “normal”.

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    6. Of course you’d post a good article when I have to leave….

      Before I go though, this whole business reminds of that saying about who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes (or something to that effect)? What she’s trying to convey is not what I saw on the screen. So, either she’s trolling or the acting/directing was way off.

      Also, what she *thinks* will happen and what will actually happen could be two very different things, especially given that she doesn’t have the scripts yet. I’ll start paying more careful attention to what she *thinks* will happen after she get the scripts. Things will be concrete…and oh so interesting then.

      Finally, Sophie changes what that look meant in seemingly every interview. In one of her Spanish interviews (when the interviewer asked what the look meant) she says:

      “You were right in what you told me, but if you think I’m going to be on your side now, you’re mistaken.”

      So, you know. Grain…salt…all of that jazz.

      Side note, I love Aiden’s interviews because I think he understands his character better than most. Love his analysis on Littlefinger.

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    7. *flips table*

      Shtoopid girl!!!!

      Actually, if LF wins this whole game, he’ll certainly have worked for it.

      Can Jon get maybe a break for 5 minutes from conspirators? Come on! ?

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    8. He’s getting all of the credit for basically Sansa saving his ass.

      Sophie really is perfectly cast. As much as comments like these grate against the Jon-loyalty in me, I love how all of the actors and actresses on the show seem to be typecast (except Ramsay and Joffrey and the like, of course). Liam really adores children: just so adorable how he raves about his babies. Sophie truly believes Sansa is a boss ass bitch. Kit is quite into feisty tomboys who happen to be ginger.

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    9. Its too bad that Margery is gone and can’t be around Sansa with good advice. She needs someone to advise her, but Sansa has been advised and mentored by Cersei, LF, and to some extent Ramsey; she wants to play the game, she wants to be good at it, she wants to come in her own. But she has always been so sheltered that I am not sure she is able to do so. Shes a smart young woman but I don’t think she has the street smarts to make it in this game the way she wants to. I like Sansa and how she’s changed – more cautious, stronger – but shes still so afraid and needing direction. Im not sure who would give her that right now – Maybe Brienne comes back and acts as her Hand before she gets herself in too much trouble

      Thinking more – does Sansa know what she wants? If so, what is it?

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    10. orange,

      They are doing it on purpose to keep people talking because things ended too well for our favourite characters.What Sophie says is literally contradicted by the scenes in the episode.Sansa will kill littlefinger next season but they can’t telegrapg that yet and they want us to #worry

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    11. Don’t buy it. Not based on how it was portrayed and acted out in the show. And if indeed that is what Sansa is thinking at the end, to join alliance with LF to betray JS, then both Sophie and show runners did not do a good job portraying it in the show.

      My guess is they are baiting readers/audience to stay hooked and be worried about Jon’s safety in S7, just like they did in the last off season. Fool me once…

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    12. Lidi:
      I’m actually hoping the Petyr Baelish/Sansa stark plan works out actually. I like darth Sansa and her learning to play the game from him is just great!

      I agree. I just love my gruesome twosome more than Jon! Haha… I’m evil, I know.

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    13. orange:
      I really don’t understand what any of these people have been saying since episode 10 aired. Literally like the exact opposite things happened in episode 10 from what they’ve been saying.

      Subtext, baby. Read the subtext.

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    14. I wonder if Baelish will try to pin Jon into a corner.

      LITTLEFINGER: “King Snow…”
      JON: “What is it, Lord Baelish? Be quick about it. I have no time for your deceits.”
      LITTLEFINGER: “Your words are harsh, your grace. I merely come bearing news… of your uncle.”
      JON: “…”

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    15. I’m sure Sansa would have received more credit if she had not hidden the army from her own allies. Southron politics aren’t exactly the best fit in the North. Jon’s loyalty and honor are obviously much more appreciated in the North and, as a result, he gains more followers. Idk how this character can expect to have Jon trust her when she hides things from him lol. She’s really been played by Littlefinger this whole season. She’s far from being a player.

      Looking forward to interviews from some other actors.

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    16. What did you all think of Sansa’s last glare to LF? Based on history of Sophie’s portrayal of emotions so far in the series, was she trying to project worry towards LF’s intentions/Jon’s safety or projecting jealousy towards Jon and a possible alliance with LF? I clearly took it to be the former but my wife thought the latter.

      Based on how Sophie emotes I can see why it might be a tough call.

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    17. I very obviously held a dagger to Ned Stark’s throat, which as television viewers saw in massive close-up, but the part of the story that’s the most damning evidence of betrayal — my holding a dagger to his throat — may not be out there.

      You know who was there to see him do that? The Hound.
      You know who is likely headed North next season? The Hound.

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    18. OKKK. Do people really expect that for the next 13 episodes Jon and Sansa will eat beautiful breakfast in Winterfell and say everyday how much they love each other, until beautiful Dany comes….to join them with her beautiful dragons and beautiful smart Tyrion??
      Together with beautiful Arya and beautiful Bran the fight the ugly WW, and they win. Jon and Dany take the throne and have beautiful children?

      Come on! Of course there has to be a story there, Sansa has to move on her own. She can’t play Jon’s sister who doesn’t do anything.

      Also on Jon-Sansa-Arya/Dany. All is incest. You can’t be like Lannisters are gross, but i really hope the hero of the story do incest because he is beautiful and Sansa is beautiful and Dany is beautiful.
      And before you say “They are cousins”, adoptive children are kids of their parents and siblings of their brothers/sisters. I know it’s fantasy but it is cruel to say that.

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    19. With all the talk about women coming into power this season, it occurs to me that Sansa could use a wise and experienced female role model about now. Her mother and Septa were just grooming her to be somebody’s proper lady; Cersei mentored her in the Game, but only in a toxic way. Her other mentors have all been male. It is too bad that her relationship with Margaery was so minimal. I don’t see Brienne as someone she can really relate to. She needs someone to show her a healthy alternative way for women to be that’s both within Sansa’s wheelhouse and viable in medieval society, so that she doesn’t have to make things up as she goes along.

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    20. Seems to me that it is about identity. Next season will be for Sansa what the last two seasons has been for Arya. Is she a Stark or not?

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    21. I don’t see any reason why “Lady Sandra” should have been chosen as leader over Jon. Just because the Vale knights came in to save the day, does not make her fit for such an important position. Jon’s a proven leader, a battle tested warrior who inspired thousands of men to follow him and he’s an honorable man, even if not too terribly bright on the show. Hell, Lyanna Mormont would have been a better choice than Sanser. Another thing is, has she forgotten how Littlefinger betrayed her father in Kings Landing? I can’t remember exactly what he said in that scene with Varys, Cersei and Pycelle when they were trying to get her to write a letter to Robb, but I’m certain he wasn’t defending her. She’s seen him betray almost every ally and also, she just spurned him by rejecting his advances. If he can’t get what he wants out of her, then she’s just another pawn in his game. It’s kind of baffling the things Sophie Turner says about Sansa, I get she’s biased, but some of it is just plain dumb and false.

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    22. Maggie:
      Also on Jon-Sansa-Arya/Dany. All is incest. You can’t be like Lannisters are gross, but i really hope the hero of the story do incest because he is beautiful and Sansa is beautiful and Dany is beautiful.
      And before you say “They are cousins”, adoptive children are kids of their parents and siblings of their brothers/sisters. I know it’s fantasy but it is cruel to say that.

      People seem to forget that Tywin’s wife was his cousin. Marrying cousins in this world is normal- siblings not so much.
      Jon and Sansa were raised as siblings. It would just… be weird.

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    23. Well Jon’s the bloody hero, everybody likes Jon. It feels like the further they take the “Jon vs. Sansa” conflict angle, the more people may start to dislike Sansa again. And all of these interviews about it seem to be reading more into the potential conflict than was actually there in the show.

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    24. Fancy word for a sellsword,

      lol

      Steff, Lidi,

      I’m kinda with you. I hated Baelish for holding that knife to Ned’s throat but his conniving ways kinda grew on me when he started mentoring Sansa and pushed Lysa out the Moon Door lol. Yes, I know that was all for his own benefit but I also think in his own weird way he does genuinely care for Sansa. And it’s good entertainment! I think he wants the best possible outcome for both of them. I’m not advocating Creepfinger and Sansa get married but it would be cool if he turned into a true anti-hero at some point. It won’t happen though I’m sure. Still, fun to watch him stir the pot. Hm, wonder what LF would think after seeing White Walkers for the first time…?

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    25. King in the Midwest,

      I thought it was rather the former, namely Sansa worrying about LF’s intentions and Jon’s safety.

      It’s really hard for me to imagine a different scenario after ep.10… but who knows, in a year we’ll find it out.

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    26. Off topic. But out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about the fact that HBO officially revealed R + L = J is 100% confirmed in one of their infographics?

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    27. Seriously, the only things Jon did “wrong” this season were pulling the Leeroy Jenkins (which ultimately may have won him more respect from Northerners, helping him get crowned King in the North) and waiting until his other advisers had left the tent before listening to Sansa’s counsel. How is that enough to cause all this supposed conflict?

      He didn’t even really get mad at Sansa over withholding info about the Vale knights.

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    28. Flayed Potatoes,

      I wonder if the Northern people have realized that she let them go to war without telling them about the Vale army. They wouldn’t have appreciated that. I mean, if Sansa wants credit for saving the Northern army by bringing in the Vale army, wouldn’t she first have to answer why she kept the info hidden?

      I enjoyed reading Aidan Gillen’s take on the situation.

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    29. ghost of winterfell:
      I wonder if the Northern people have realized that shelet them go to war without telling them about the Vale army. They wouldn’t have appreciated that. I mean, if Sansa wants credit for saving the Northern army by bringing in the Vale army, wouldn’t she first have to answer why she kept the info hidden?

      The writers don’t want you to think about that, because it was all ultimately just to manufacture suspense. Hence, e.g., Jon’s blase reaction to her not telling him about it, suggesting it’s a simple trust issue, rather than something that got potentially thousands of his men killed.

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    30. I don’t know if I blame the writers, director, or Sophie Turner’s performance, but what they are saying in these post-season interviews was not properly portrayed on screen. And the problem is they think it was.

      The frustrating thing is they could have very easily gotten over to the audience that Sansa is jealous about Jon “stealing” her birthright, which is what Cat always feared, by adding in just one scene of Jon telling Sansa that he would support her claim as Lady of Winterfell when the Northern Lords came. And then when the kingofdanorf scene happened, she could have a legitimate reason to be bitter at Jon. That conflict would be two sided as Sansa would feel her birth right was stolen and Jon would feel like he couldn’t turn down what the North wanted and needed to fight the white walkers.

      As it stands now, Jon has done nothing but bend over backwards for Sansa, so it’s hard to find any real conflict between them. “Jon didn’t take my advice” comes across as soooooo hollow and false when he flat out asked her what should she do and she shrugged her shoulders instead of giving him a reason to wait.

      It’s a super frustrating plot development because it has such an easy fix.

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    31. Kamali,

      I absolutely 100% agree with you.
      I’m seeing all these comments about Sansa’s jealousy and her “right”, but she really didn’t do anything to deserve it.
      She called in the knights of the Vale, but if she hadn’t kept that secret it might have saved hundreds of lives.
      She simultaneously killed and saved them.

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    32. Kamali,

      That’s exactly what I was trying to say. D&D and now Turner are talking about stuff that simply wasn’t there. They keep acting like Jon did something wrong when he really didn’t.

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    33. Sean C.,

      That’s what I think too. This was supposed to be a straightforward Sansa saves the day situation. But it did not ultimately come across that way. Whether intentional or not, this has made her motivations seem even more obtuse.

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    34. A Man Grown,

      But Jon didn’t wait for other people to leave to listen to her.She is the one who waited to talk.Jon would have listened to her whenever she spoke as he has always.Also she wants credit for saving the battle,which Jon gave anyway,but if she had been honest they wouldn’t need saving in the first place.Also who says the north doesn’t know how the battle went.Clearly the Mormonts Hornwoods and Mazins know and have told people and considering it’s the Vale obviously they would assume they allied because of Sansa since Robyn is her cousin and has nothing to Jon.But they still prefered Jon because they appreciate his valor and don’t give a fuck about southron politics.It’s not Jon’s fault

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    35. A Man Grown,

      Benioff, in one of the Inside the Episodes, indicated that he saw Sansa’s complaints about not being asked anything at the war council in 609 as a legitimate gripe, which really makes little sense to me.

      If that’s supposed to have been a thing, why did they write the earlier war council in 605 where Sansa speaks up several times without being asked?

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    36. Kamali,

      That is exactly my point. For an otherwise such a well made episode, I can’t believe that the producers would miss out on something like this. That is why I think this is just a way to keep the suspense until the next season.

      So either Sophie/Show runners messed up and didn’t get their point across and there is supposed to be a genuine conflict brewing between Sansa and JS or these interviews are just supposed to mess with our heads. Given the history, I’d guess the former.

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    37. On Mel. I wonder if her going south means she will cross paths with Arya, as she said she would see her again. Would be cool to see how Arya reacts to hearing about Jon being Killed and brought back and then winning the war against the Boltons.

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    38. LF is toast next season as Night’s King is coming to kill everyone. In general we’re slowly moving from schemes towards bigger fight. Of course Jon is needed more than any of them. Sansa seems to be safe. Jon’s parentage could play a part, Bran and who knows if he’ll be King because of that or others things.

      Jon is getting ass kicked everywhere he goes. Walkers, Boltons, Wildlings. Always someone had to save him and bertrayed by his brothers and now maybe by his sister or cousin. The guy should just join Night’s King and be done with it.

      White Walkers seems like a good option. Friendly enviroment, loyalty above everything, he could fight and nobody is going to bertray you.

      I really enjoy Adrian’s take on it. While I hate LF but part of me loves him. He just knows things and can manipulate people for his needs and what he wants from them. But he made a mistake by revealing his ultimate goal which is Iron Throne and Sansa might used it fo her.

      When Sophie mentioned scene where Jon said we need to trust each other. I think Jon really meant both of them but Sophie thinks it’s the other way. Confused by her views because it seemed like a geniune conversation.

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    39. Flayed Potatoes,

      For her to think that she’s gonna get more credit than Jon is kind of insane. Seeing it from the Lords (and Lady) perspective, Jon was the one fighting, Jon was the one who put his life on the line. Jon is the one the Wildlings are following. Jon in their eyes = strength. Jon is the one who’s telling them about the Others. Who the hell are they going to choose as a leader in such times? Sansa? Probably not. I mean I think they would go for Lady Mormont before going for Sansa.

      Sansa brought the Lords of the Vale true enough but did it in such a sneaky way that of course she won’t get the credit she thinks she deserves. Anyone other than Jon would suspect Sansa just a bit but Jon can’t for his life detect malice. Not from a man who abused him from day one, much less from a sister he loves. Jon is pretty much Ned. He’s not meant for the game of thrones but unfortunately he will be thrown into it. Can’t we give him Bran and Arya to counterbalance Little Finger? And Mel really sucks, her fires should have warn her about Little Finger and that should have been her last gift to Jon before she departed.

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    40. Josh L,

      A little bit on “Isaac Hempstead Wright and Robert Aramayo discuss the Tower of Joy and Game of Thrones’ endgame.” Mostly about the significance of the “abducted” key in the map and whether or not Lyanna and Rhaegar were married.

      Darjan,

      Sansa is Lady of WF being the oldest known child of Ned. She is Lady of WF as widow to Ramsay. And her “army” won the battle. Not to take one side or the other but she has a legitimate “claim” to WF. I don’t think she knows about LF and Ned (yet).

      I gotta say, LF in season 6 was nothing if not helpful. He saved the day. He tried some wedge comments on Sansa but that was pretty mild for him. He could still have some treachery planned but atm he’s playing nice.

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    41. I don’t believe Sansa has good intentions for the new King in the North. You see her smile fade the moment Lyanna Mormont reaches her second point

      “We know no King in the North whose name is Stark, I don’t care if he is a bastard…”

      Right there Sansa looks disappointed, it was setup as a Queen in the North coronation moment, and the rug goes right out from under her. Then each lord goes to praise Jon for defeating the Boltons and avenging the Red Wedding, and in reality Jon nearly lost to the Bolton’s had it not been for Sansa’s hard won alliance to bring the Knights of the Vale to the rescue (Think of what she endured for Little Finger, and she got no credit.)

      Her face remains cold as the cheer “The King in the North” rises up until the moment Jon looks at her, and she gives him a small and seemingly insincere smile to before looking at Little Finger with an inscrutable expression.

      Hate to say it, I love that scene more than almost any other scene in the series, but it is bitter sweet if the show runners follow through with these subtle hints next season.

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    42. King in the Midwest,

      Agree with you. To me, she initially seemed to be sharing a moment of pride and genuine happiness with Jon. When she laid eyes on LF, her mood shifted to concern and worry over what his next move might be. She is fully aware that LF poses a future threat to both Jon and her, if she keeps rejecting him.

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    43. I don’t agree with all their decisions but Benioff and Weiss are better writers than what people complain about. That being said, if I was supposed to sense Jon/Sansa tension leading to a Jon/Sansa power struggle in season 7 than this is one of their worst writing moments in the series run. I got none of that. The scenes were not written, directed or acted like that. He said she was responsible for them being there, she apologized for not telling him, he said she’s the Lady of Winterfell, she said she views him as a Stark. She said only a fool would trust LF. How are any of these writing decisions for episode 10 supposed to lead the viewer to conclude that there is Jon/Sansa tension?

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    44. Red Raider of the High Plains,

      I would have been right there with you if during the scene where Jon offers Sansa their fathers bedchamber, Jon would have told Sansa that he was going to make sure she received credit when the Northern Lords came, and perhaps even support her claim as queen. It would have set the stage for the audience to expect Sansa to be named queen in the north and only for awesome misdirection where the Lords completely ignore Sansa and declare Jon their King before he has a chance to follow through on his promise to give Winterfell to her. And THEN Sansa could look at Littlefinger and realize he was right, the Northern Lords completely disrespected her during their tour, and even after the battle has been won, still don’t acknowledge her.

      It would be a genuine conflict where I could see both sides of the argument – Sansa feeling slighted that Jon didn’t follow through – and Jon feeling as if a united north is what they need most.

      The subtext of that is still there but the show is usually good about putting conflicts into razor sharp focus. The picture is way too blurry and muddled as if stands at the end of season 6.

      I’m right there with you that I would love it as a bittersweet development if it was done right.

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    45. Ispahan75:
      King in the Midwest,

      Agree with you. To me, she initially seemed to be sharing a moment of pride and genuine happiness with Jon. When she laid eyes on LF, her mood shifted to concern and worry over what his next move might be.She is fully aware that LF poses a future threat to both Jon and her, if she keeps rejecting him.

      That is exactly how I took the scene. That Sansa supported Jon but when she saw Littlefinger, was nervous about what Lord Baelish was going to do now that she rejected him after he exposed his plight to her.

      I was shocked to read the interviews from the showrunners and Sophie that suggest otherwise.

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    46. I gotta say, LF in season 6 was nothing if not helpful. He saved the day. He tried some wedge comments on Sansa but that was pretty mild for him. He could still have some treachery planned but atm he’s playing nice.

      this right here is why he is soo dangerous. He has not been “playing nice” at all.
      -In his very first scene he was already trying to put a wedge between Sansa and Jon.
      -He showed up at the battle on HIS terms, following his plans that HE set up in season 5 with Cersie by waiting till both armies could not stand against his and then he chose the side that would help him reach HIS goal
      -he then laid all his cards out, promising her a place beside HIM when HE sits the Iron Throne.. and he did this on purpose..like a final test. She will pass or fail that test next season.

      Yes, we will spend a few weeks gnashing our teeth and pounding our heads against the wall as Sansa makes things 100x more difficult for Jon and drives him to the VERY end of his rope (like all good sisters do to older brothers) but in the end Littlefinger will get the “reward” she promised him,the fandom will rejoice and for one shining moment we will all be #TeamSansa

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    47. Red Raider of the High Plains,

      I’m not sure I would describe Sansa’s alliance as hard-won. Littlefinger offered his army to her on a plate and though she snubbed him at first, all she then needed to do was write him one letter asking him To come to their rescue. Sansa feels she is owed Winterfell and the North, but hasn’t done anything that would inspire allegiance in the northerners themselves. Yes, by birthright, Winterfell is hers (but not the title of Queen in the North), but in truth, she used deception during the BOB and did not put herself at risk for the north at all (not that you would expect her to, not all women are Brienne of Tarth and knee-deep in the battle!). Jon on the other hand valiantly fought for his northern countrymen and would have died for them. He also had an excellent reputation in the north preceding the battle (Ramsay’s reference to the north thinking of him as the best swordsman that ever lived). I think it was very naive of Sansa to believe everyone would follow her. Jon has given his adult life to the watch to protect the north, first against wildlings and then against the army of the dead. Sansa has been marrying (against her will, this is obviously so not her fault) their enemies and hasn’t been in the north since she was a child. She also arrives with the Vale, which she kept hidden from her supposed allies. I really think she is very naive to think this will inspire loyalty.

      I like that Sansa is growing in strength and that her character has finally developed into the powerful woman she was set up to be this season, but at the same time, these interviews and Sophie Turner explaining her thoughts to us, is making me feel a little frustrated with her character once more. Family is more important to the Starks than anything, but Sanda doesn’t seem to be behaving that way.

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    48. Cersei’s Brain,

      Good points. The Northmen care more about valor, honor, and Stark blood than they do about the Knights of the Vale, that’s for sure. And Jon was at the Wall while Sansa spent years in the South.

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    49. selena,

      “He showed up at the battle on HIS terms, following his plans that HE set up in season 5 with Cersie by waiting till both armies could not stand against his and then he chose the side that would help him reach HIS goal”

      In theory, this is correct. However, the BotB played out with him arriving only AFTER Sansa sent for him. Would he have stayed home without the raven message? Would he have cleared the ashes if Sansa never wrote? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    50. Jon will obviously focus on the North. Sansa is free to look to the south to secure the southern borders and ask for aid.

      Baelish is free to take over the Twins from the now headless and incompetent Frey’s. The Tully’s should rise up as the Lannister army is either going to be stuck at home or defending Kings Landing.

      Aryn and/or Tully should be able to wipe out the Frey’s. Although that leads to a BWB storyling in the Riverlands.

      When Baelish hears of the arrival of Daenerys he is going to have to adjust his plan to get close enough to meddle. Varys and Tyrion are familiar with Baelish.

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    51. Red Raider of the High Plains,

      I think her smile to Jon was pretty much sincere. Remember that she offered him lord’s bedchamber and called him a Stark. But yes, she is conflicted between LF and Jon and that look to LF could either mean “Maybe you are right” or actually “I sense some trouble”. LF’s look was pretty sinister in that scene.

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    52. I can’t buy into Sansa trusting Little Finger at all at this point. She may be a little jealous of Jon, but she flat out says “Only a fool would trust Little Finger”.

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    53. ZERO sympathy for Sansa. She was at the war council. She could’ve spoken up. She could’ve told Jon about the Littlefinger meeting. She could’ve been upfront. She withheld. She lied. Zero sympathy.

      If the show takes her to the conniving side, I’m gonna be pissed. It makes no sense for her to do that. She was sold by Littlefinger to a monster. How the heck would a person ever get past that?

      Was so hoping Brienne of Tarth woulda been there to slice Littlefinger’s head off as soon as he got done making his offer to Sansa.

      Please, Benioff and Weiss, do not go in the Shady Sansa direction. Dumb.

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    54. Flayed Potatoes,

      Agreed.

      Now I don’t know what to make of the direction of the story. Either Sophie Turner is really bad at conveying certain emotions, or something weird is going on.

      She was smiling, until she noticed LF in the corner looking angry about Jon being named King in the North, and then she looked worried.

      I feel like most people would interpret that as Sansa being concerned that LF may try to undermine Jon and realizing that he is going to be a problem for them.

      If that was meant to be Sansa reconsidering an alliance with LF because she didn’t get the credit she thinks she deserve, Sophie really didn’t succeed at portraying that in my opinion.

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    55. Ginevra,

      Gasp! You mean Sansa could be feeling *two* things in that moment!?

      Yeah, the subtly and ambiguity of that moment seems to be lost on some people.

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    56. Darjan,

      I agree with much of what you said, but you are mistaken about the scene with Cersei, Varys, Pycelle, Littlefinger and Sansa.

      Baelish was defending her, saying she is innocent and should be given a chance to prove herself. Pycelle was the one talking shit.

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    57. A Man Grown,

      Nope, and he even praised her for winning the battle, saying she deserved to be Lady of Winterfell.

      And then Sophie Turner says in one of the BTS videos that Jon didn’t give her the credit she deserves.

      I really have no idea where she gets this stuff.

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    58. Kamali,

      I agree with everything you said, and based on all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff I’ve watched, I think the writers, the director, and Sophie Turner all share responsibility in this failure to convey the story they thought they were telling.

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    59. Flayed Potatoes,

      All I’m saying is backup, right? I mean if the show remains true to Arya’s character, she wouldn’t let anyone harm a single hair on Jon’s head. And Bran, Bran would be pragmatic about it all. He understands the big picture and he’s always had a handle on Jon’s character:

      Bran saw his father’s face change, saw the other men exchange glances. He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment. Even at seven, Bran understood what his brother had done. The count had come right only because Jon had omitted himself. He had included the girls, included even Rickon, the baby, but not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the north unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own.

      Their father understood as well. “You want no pup for yourself, Jon?” he asked softly.

      “The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark,” Jon pointed out. “I am no Stark, Father.”

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    60. To everyone:

      Varys didn’t went back to Meereen. He join Dany’s armada at Sunspear. Look the Ice and Fire world map from Meereen to Dorne. And they’re going to the Iron Islands because Dany made a promise to Yara and Theon. (And the Tyrell ships join them most likely at Highgarden)

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    61. From Aidan Gillen’s interview to Huffingtonpost.com.

      When asked if we should be worried about Sansa and Jon’s relationship, Gillen said, Do you mean after the scene where it’s implied strongly who Jon’s parents really are? Well, their relationship has a new potential now in light of that for sure. Although, I think having being brought up as siblings, they’re not going to want to go there. Anyway, while the viewers saw it in flashback, it’s secret from a long time bck, so who know? But someone must and I wouldn’t rule anything out.”

      What are your thoughts on that look Littlefinger gave Sansa while everyone was chanting “King in the North”. What was the meaning? What were you trying to convey?

      Well, that’s in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it? We have to keep a certain amount to ourselves, and it’s probably not as interesting for everyone to be explained. There’s the obvious note that I’m checking with Sansa on something I’ve flagged to her already this season a couple of time- Jon Snow is not really your brother.

      What are your thought on the big reveal that Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow’s mother? Do you think Littlefinger already knows?

      I thought it was a great moment, but like I said earlier that while it was revealed to the audience, not many characters would know. Or if they’d kept it a secret for so long, why would they break now? Of course, it’s being revealed to the audience for a reason yet to be ascertained. So does Littlefinger know? Well, now that you mention it…

      Interesting that Littlefinger might know something more and Aiden never really refused it. That look he gave to Sansa in the cryps. Interesting to see what he knows and can prove.

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    62. I’m really curious how Brienne would handle a Sansa/Littlefinger alliance against Jon. All she wants is someone (honorable) to follow and serve (for more than a few episodes till they die). It might break her once and for all.

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    63. Markus Stark:
      Nope, and he even praised her for winning the battle, saying she deserved to be Lady of Winterfell.

      And then Sophie Turner says in one of the BTS videos that Jon didn’t give her the credit she deserves.

      I believe the point is meant to be that publicly Jon (and everybody else) ignores her at the council. Structurally, the three Sansa scenes in the episode seem to be positioned as:

      1) Sansa & Jon: Jon tells her they would have lost the battle without her, etc. This is meant to establish for the audience that she was the person primarily responsible for their victory (which, yes, in and of itself there’s a bunch of questionable writing choices, but that’s how the writers are presenting it).
      2) Sansa & Littlefinger: Littlefinger reminds the audience that Sansa is the legitimate heir (er, except Bran, but everybody in Winterfell seems to have forgotten about him).
      3) The council scene: Suddenly (and really, without much explanation), absolutely everybody in the room is praising Jon to the heavens and he is elected king, on the basis that he avenged the Red Wedding, is the best thing since sliced bread, they don’t care that he’s a bastard, etc. Not one of the speakers in this scene so much as mentions Sansa, even though she’s sitting right there, and all the things the previous scenes set up.

      There are a bunch of reasons, which other people here have already laid out, why this doesn’t really connect with many people.

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    64. Red Raider of the High Plains,

      Nope. I have watched that scene several times, her expressions do not change through out that scene until her eyes catch LF lurking in the back of the room. And also, if becoming QiTN was her real intention why didn’t she grab LF offer to become QiTN? When Jon offered her to be the Lady of Winterfell, which comes with master bed, why did she tell him ‘no, you deserve to be the lord of this castle’?? She was all in for Jon being KiTN IMO.

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    65. I feel like most people would interpret that as Sansa being concerned that LF may try to undermine Jon and realizing that he is going to be a problem for them.

      Easily fixed in one conversation. “Jon is going north to fight. We can worry about him, if, IF he comes back. While he is gone …..”

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    66. Stavross,

      MIND BLOWN!! Damn a whole series of events and possibilities flashed before my eyes! I really want to have the hound, initially treated poorly by the Stark guards brought before Sansa and call her “little bird.” Everyone looks ath them suspiciously, Sansa has him released. Then proceed to say he was guiding her sister north till some “woman” knocked him off a bloody cliff. “Oh and whats that little C^#T doing here.. he held a knife to your fathers throat when he turned Kings Landing over to that B Queen” figure there would be lots of cursing lol

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    67. I read the look from Sansa to LF as concern & worry – she knows how scheming and damaging he can be. I can see her trying to control LF which may not work the way she hopes at first and she may keep her concerns from Jon which would be a mistake.

      But there are two dangers coming (I believe) LF’s way.

      The Hound, mentioned in the article with Aiden, knows of LF’s roll in Ned’s fate and…

      Arya who was in the room when LF and Tywin were discussing Robb’s army and a the Stark daughters.

      Only one of those revelations to Jon or Sansa will bring him down. Both revelations, well…I don’t think even LF can talk his way out of.

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    68. orange,

      Only thing I can say is that show runners did not suggest any tension between them through out the episode and that it only started when Sansa saw all the leaders of North singing JS praises and declared him the KiTN, and LF meaningful look to her saying “I told you so!”

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    69. This is my interpretation, Sophie’s interview simply makes zero sense to me.

      First we have Jon and Sansa talking outside at Winterfell. Jon says he had the lord and lady chamber prepared for her. She then says why not you, Jon says he is not a Stark, and Sansa says she is as much a Stark as she is as far as she is concerned. She then apologizes for not informing Jon of the Vale army, Jon forgives and says we need to trust each other, and they embrace. Finally, Jon asks if they can trust Lord Baelish. Sansa says Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.

      Next scene in this thread, we have Sansa talking to Littlefinger. Littlefinger confesses to Sansa that he wants the Iron Throne and her by his side. He tries to embrace her, she pushes him away. Finally, Littlefinger tries to sow new seeds of mistrust in Sansa about Jon once again.

      Finally, we have the King in the North Scene. Both Jon and Sansa seemed stunned by the huge support for him as King in the North, Jon looks in shock at Sansa, and she smiles at him. She is then smiling until she and littlefinger match eyes. The triumphant Stark music suddenly becomes somber when Littlefinger is in frame, and he is glaring at Sansa, Sansa’s smile fades, and her mouth is slightly open, realizing they have made a powerful enemy now.

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    70. Kamali:
      I don’t know if I blame the writers, director, or Sophie Turner’s performance, but what they are saying in these post-season interviews was not properly portrayed on screen. And the problem is they think it was.

      The writers did show Sansa was jealous but it was subtle and by the looks of the posts here, too subtle for many to pick up on. Sansa shows her surprise at Jon being picked over her when Lady Mormont says “I only know one king and their name is Stark”. Sansa is looking down with a huge smile on her face that falls off when Lady Mormont continues that “he may be a bastard”. Some have picked up on it, many haven’t but it is definitely what was shown in the episode.

      Yes, she tells Jon “you take the Lord’s chamber” in their too brief heart to heart talk but that’s before she meets with Littlefinger who reminds her of her true born rights. Her talk with Jon isn’t any real discussion about anything other than Winter arriving. There’s no clear reason given for Sansa withholding information or any real consensus of who ultimately will get the Lord’s bedchamber and even if there had been, it looks like at the time, Sansa did believe Jon should get it. That seems to have changed after she spoke to LF.

      Red Raider of the High Plains has the right of it according to Time magazine:

      “That’s a pretty picture,” she says smoothly, rebuffing his declaration of love and seeming to confirm her lack of interest in returning to King’s Landing, leaving Littlefinger in the lurch. But not so fast: later in the episode, as the Northern bannermen all rally around Jon Snow and proclaim him King in the North, Sansa’s smile falters in the midst of celebration as she and Littlefinger share a look. In many ways, she is responsible for bringing Jon back to Winterfell and setting him up for victory. But there’s no credit given her — by Jon, or by any of the Northerners assembled in the hall — and, suddenly, Littlefinger’s offer might be looking rather more appealing.

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    71. There’s a scene way back when we’re discussing a battle, a scene with Cersei, and we’re talking about Stannis and the Boltons, and letting the two of them tear each other apart, and coming in at the last minute with the Knights of the Vale. Who’s to say that Sansa wasn’t thinking of doing something like that as well? Let them kill each other. Again, it’s not likely, but not impossible.

      I like this. What Sansa does with the Vale is only rational if she is playing a game: Hide the Vale, “let them kill each other,” and only then send in the rescue. Without that sort of reasoning, Sansa is behaving irrationally, which is ridiculous as Littlefinger is her mentor, the way Jaqen was Arya’s mentor, and Bloodraven was Bran’s mentor. Bran is a prophet. Arya is an assassin. Sansa should be a player, not a traumatized, helpless damsel.

      …also, Sansa’s game (if it was a game) failed. Jon survived and Sansa was screwed. She did save the day by sending in the Vale. She is the sole surviving legitimate Stark (Sansa is the only one who knows Bran might still be alive). Yet that meeting raises its swords for the bastard who undid his own battle strategy and nearly destroyed his entire army. If I were Sansa, I’d be thinking that maybe I sent in the Vale too early.

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    72. Vyse:
      This is my interpretation, Sophie’s interview simply makes zero sense to me.

      First we have Jon and Sansa talking outside at Winterfell. Jon says he had the lord and lady chamber prepared for her. She then says why not you, Jon says he is not a Stark, and Sansa says she is as much a Stark as she is as far as she is concerned. She then apologizes for not informing Jon of the Vale army, Jon forgives and says we need to trust each other, and they embrace. Finally, Jon asks if they can trust Lord Baelish. Sansa says Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.

      Yes Jon says we need to trust each other. So? Did Sansa immediately decide “Yes, I must do that and so must Jon and stifle her mistrust? What exactly was resolved by this conversation? Nothing as far as I can tell.

      Vyse:
      Next scene in this thread, we have Sansa talking to Littlefinger. Littlefinger confesses to Sansa that he wants the Iron Throne and her by his side. He tries to embrace her, she pushes him away. Finally, Littlefinger tries to sow new seeds of mistrust in Sansa about Jon once again.

      Precisely. LF stokes the fires that were already simmering in episode 9. Sansa feels that she must take care of herself since no one else will.

      Vyse:
      Finally, we have the King in the North Scene. Both Jon and Sansa seemed stunned by the huge support for him as King in the North, Jon looks in shock at Sansa, and she smiles at him. She is then smiling until she and littlefinger match eyes. The triumphant Stark music suddenly becomes somber when Littlefinger is in frame, and he is glaring at Sansa, Sansa’s smile fades, and her mouth is slightly open, realizing they have made a powerful enemy now.

      Yes, Sansa is shocked and her smile is never quite the same after Jon is chosen as it was when she thought it was going to be her. And we don’t know what she is thinking when she looks at LF but it is clear that she is not happy. Nothing has really changed from her angry scene in ep 9 as far as she’s concerned. She’s still not the one calling the shots and she’s going to have to continue to take care of herself.

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    73. I understand Sansa felt a little jealous about Jon. The Northerners not even look at her. It’s all about Jon, the White Wolf. But … if they include a plot of Sansa and Littlefinger planning to harm Jon, I would be really disappointed (more than when Stannis agreed to sacrifice Shireen). Is Sansa supposed to become Cersei????
      I suppose they need some interesting plot for the North, while the war happens in the south. But, I expect more of a personal struggle of Jon with the truth about his parentage. Hopefully, we’ll get more flashbacks for Bran. I hope they don’t prolong the meeting between Bran, Jon and Arya.
      I expect the Stark ladies will want to take revenge on Cersei, while the Stark boys will focus on the White Walkers threat.

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    74. GoGo777,

      Sure, but they are two very different feelings. One is a feeling of worry to protect a member of family, while the other is a feeling of jealousy against the same family member. Don’t think you can have both those diametrically opposite feelings at the same time, unless you’re bipolar.

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    75. ash,

      Given what happened with Joffrey, Cersei, and Ramsay, and the mental, physical and emotional abuse she sufferred, my guess would be that she never wants to be in a position again where someone could treat her in a similar fashion. She realizes that the only person who can protect her is herself and that the best way to avoid situations like that is to always be in control. The exchange with Jon about him protecting her as an example. She will find it very difficult to trust anyone else to protect her again.

      When I saw the KITN scene even for the first time, I watched Sansa and her reactions. I saw her revealing very little. She smiled but did she smile because she was happy or because that was what was expected. And the look with LF, I saw something very ambigious, that certainly could be interpreted as more than knowing LF will now be an enemy. And that’s how I interpreted it even before Sophie, Kit, Liam, and Aidan provided their commentary.

      And to create dramatic tension, it would appear better to me if there was doubt as to whether Sansa would side with Jon or LF as oppposed to it being obvious it was Jon/Sansa vs. LF.

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    76. I think the age of the actors reflect their interpretations of the story. Gillen is more mature and he is able to talk about LF’s thinking without giving too much away. Sophie is either totally misunderstanding the story by being a whiny child saying Sansa didn’t get appreciation for saving Jon’s ass not considering the fact he would have made a better plan if he knew they had a large cavalry in store, nor explaining any reasons why Sansa hid that from Jon – the readers here came up with so many suggestions, and all Sophie can think of is ‘he is her half-brother, sibling jealousy, etc’, or she is literally being a little bird who repeats what David and Dan taught her to say, to build up anxiety among audience. Much like “Jon Snow is dead, deal with it” gag that Maisie Williams did after season 5.

      Sansa does have the right to be disappointed that no one acknowledged her publicly, but we don’t know what discussions were going on before the KitN scene started. Yohn Royce was the first to speak, and it seemed he did not start that discussion. And it was Sansa and Arya who avenged Red Wedding more than Jon. Jon’s motivations were protecting his remaining family and to unite the North to have a better chance fighting the Others, not revenge (at least until Ramsay killed Rickon). But to say Sansa thinks ‘LF is a more trustworthy ally than she initially thought’? Wasn’t it Sophie’s character who said ‘only a fool would trust Littlefinger’ in the same episode? LF did plant some seeds of doubt in Sansa’s head after that, but Sophie calling him trustworthy really got me.

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    77. Of topic , but here’s a great documentary that any thrones fan will enjoy . A great historical 3 parter about knights , swords, castles and adventure . Well worth a watch . Plus there are a few game of thrones Easter eggs and a very suspicious smaller winterfell style castle

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    78. Of topic , but here’s a great documentary that any thrones fan will enjoy . A great historical 3 parter about knights , swords, castles and adventure . Well worth a watch . Plus there are a few game of thrones Easter eggs and a very suspicious smaller winterfell style castle https://youtu.be/brQFYGpHr-I

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    79. orange:
      I really don’t understand what any of these people have been saying since episode 10 aired. Literally like the exact opposite things happened in episode 10 from what they’ve been saying.

      Sophie has lost the plot. Her comments get more bizarre by the day.

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    80. maria:

      …also, Sansa’s game (if it was a game) failed. Jon survived and Sansa was screwed. She did save the day by sending in the Vale. She is the sole surviving legitimate Stark (Sansa is the only one who knows Bran might still be alive). Yet that meeting raises its swords for the bastard who undid his own battle strategy and nearly destroyed his entire army.

      The game is hardly over. I’d say that’s what LF’s smile was saying and Sansa’s look was showing her realization and fear of this fact. I don’t think she is relishing doing anything that will be needed to “win” this game. I don’t think it will come down to doing anything as drastic as delaying the KotV but I expect a few “obstacles” to thrown in Jon’s way at the start of season 7. I suspect all those games will come to an end when the White Walkers are at the gates. Well, I hope it ends then.

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    81. If Varys ever meets up with Jon or Sansa he could be telling them what LF did in Kings Landing. He was there when LF betrayed Ned.
      Varys was also at the council where Ned declined to have Dani killed. Ned even tried to stop her assassination attempt when King Robert died.
      I really hope Dani and Co meet up with the Starks! That would be the end for LF.

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    82. Ser Pounce FTW,

      Exactly. This is my take. Don’t forget Sansa is the victim of repeated abuse. Her choices may not make sense to some who have not gone through similar types of abuse. She will never let anyone hurt her again. And as much as she may say she trusts Jon, there’s a part of her that can never trust someone else, especially a man. It has nothing really to do with childhood. It has to do with Joffrey and Ramsay.

      Yes, the writers may not have conveyed this is a direct manner. And for all I know it is all hype for next year. But I thought as soon as the KITN stuff started, what is Sansa thinking … when she smiled and didn’t smile … how careful she was with her emotions and then that one enigmatic look with LF which was purposefully obtuse to me.

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    83. From the beginning, Jon wants to join the KW -how did that turn out? Jon wants to go North -how did that turn out? Jon wants to persuade the Wildlings -how did that turn out? Jon wants to unite the Wildlings with the people of the North -how did that turn out? Jon wants to save Rickon and free the North from Ramsey -how did that turn out?

      My takes on all of it is that Jon Snow knows nothing and he will keep doing his best in that he will travel South to find more men to join him in the fight against the ice zombies and Sansa will enjoy her time at Winterfel skimming her new way to hold the north together unitl everybody realise the real threat.

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    84. Cersei’s Brain,

      Yet in quite a few respects this “typical TV plot” would really be much more in keeping with the intrigue and themes of the series than all of this fairy-tale nonsense so many people are now wishing for, with no real risks for their favorite characters. After so much unpredictability early on, the last thing I want to see is the story turning into “Dany marries Jon! All the ‘good guys’ team up and ROFLstomp the eeevil WWs! The End!” It’s pretty safe to say this is not that kind of story and was never going to be. GRRM and others have made this pretty clear in all manner of interviews over the years, and I know I for one would be extremely disappointed if that’s where all of this ends up going.

      It really could use a major curve ball right about now to undermine most people’s assumptions about the endgame, and you have to admit that a Jon-Sansa conflict would certainly do the trick–even if it’s also true that the setup hasn’t been handled particularly well.

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    85. She’s still trying to turn this around on Jon and say HE needs to be more open and honest when it was HER who withheld potential battle information from him?

      UNBELIEVABLE

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    86. Turner’s view does make sense. After I have rewatched the scene several times focusing on her face.

      She has a genuine smile untill Lady Mormont says: “And we know no king but the king in the North who’s name is Stark”.

      Then she looks down and when Mormont continues: “And I don’t care if he is a bastard”. At which point her smile does not look genuine anymore.

      The rest of the scene her smile is forced. Untill she looks at Littlefinger and it disappears.

      But then, it’s not a possibillity I would ever have considered without reading through this thread and rewatching multiple times.

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    87. Mag:
      I understand Sansa felt a little jealous about Jon. The Northerners not even look at her. It’s all about Jon, the White Wolf. But … if they include a plot of Sansa and Littlefinger planning to harm Jon, I would be really disappointed (more than when Stannis agreed to sacrifice Shireen). Is Sansa supposed to become Cersei????
      I suppose they need some interesting plot for the North, while the war happens in the south. But, I expect more of a personal struggle of Jon with the truth about his parentage.Hopefully, we’ll get more flashbacks for Bran. I hope they don’t prolong the meeting between Bran, Jon and Arya.
      I expect the Stark ladies will want to take revenge on Cersei, while the Stark boys will focus on the White Walkers threat.

      It does seem as though Martin has enough in his books for this to play out in the same way. Jon was planning to free Winterfell from the Boltons based on what he knows and the meager forces he has while Robb’s will naming him KitN is making it’s way North. Sansa was promised Winterfell by LF as a wedding gift will probably arrive with the KotV in the nick of time to save the day. The show has hardly created this scenario out of thin air.

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    88. Ser Pounce FTW: Yes Jon says we need to trust each other. So? Did Sansa immediately decide “Yes, I must do that and so must Jon and stifle her mistrust? What exactly was resolved by this conversation? Nothing as far as I can tell.

      Then why even bother having Sansa telling Jon that he’s as much a Stark as she is as far as she’s concerned? There is no malicious reason for her saying that.

      Ser Pounce FTW:

      Precisely. LF stokes the fires that were already simmering in episode 9. Sansa feels that she must take care of herself since no one else will.

      I saw that scene as Sansa trying to further read into Littlefinger’s plan. If Sansa still trusts Littlefinger even a tiny bit (especially after saying “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger”), then she is the dumbest, stupidest character by far in the show.

      Ser Pounce FTW:

      Yes, Sansa is shocked and her smile is never quite the same after Jon is chosen as it was when she thought it was going to be her. And we don’t know what she is thinking when she looks at LF but it is clear that she is not happy. Nothing has really changed from her angry scene in ep 9 as far as she’s concerned. She’s still not the one calling the shots and she’s going to have to continue to take care of herself.

      I agree we don’t know for certain, and it’s open for interpretation. Heck at this stage, I’d say only the writers know. I wonder if those inside the episode interviews with the actors are done while shooting. Id that’s the case, the actors haven’t even seen the finished product.

      Still, I’d say that if the writers are going towards Sansa Vs Jon next season, they have done a horrendous job of setting it up.

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    89. Aside from the ickiness (I’d argue Tyrion, Ramsay and LF are ickier), why shouldn’t Jon and Sansa get married? I can see why there’d be opposition in terms of “story” but a marriage would clean up a lot of this tension and force out LF. Sophie mentioned Dany as a possible marriage for Jon. Too clean for me. Jon and Sansa have already been through a lot with each other. A Dany marriage would feel strictly political. Cousins in Westeros ain’t that crazy. There’s gotta be a happy wedding too at some point, right? RIGHT??? Who deserves a happy wedding more than Jon and Sansa?

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    90. Honestly no one touch my Jon. Ever. Thanks

      I don’t get this Sansa Jon talk from Sophie – not the vibe I got when I watched and it’s kind of annoying reading about it.

      I’ve said this before though I don’t think she would betray Jon in the end. It may seem like it at first

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    91. Jack Bauer 24:
      She’s still trying to turn this around on Jon and say HE needs to be more open and honest when it was HER who withheld potential battle information from him?

      UNBELIEVABLE

      So true. Hell, when Sansa tells Jon he should listen to her since she knows Ramsay best, he says she is right and asks for her advice! If the writers are truly going towards a direction of having Sansa going against Jon, Sansa will be even lower than Cersei to me. Sansa has done nothing except write to Littlefinger asking for his help after he offered it.

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    92. Tycho Nestoris:
      Aside from the ickiness (I’d argue Tyrion, Ramsay and LF are ickier), why shouldn’t Jon and Sansa get married? I can see why there’d be opposition in terms of “story” but a marriage would clean up a lot of this tension and force out LF. Sophie mentioned Dany as a possible marriage for Jon. Too clean for me. Jon and Sansa have already been through a lot with each other. A Dany marriage would feel strictly political. Cousins in Westeros ain’t that crazy. There’s gotta be a happy wedding too at some point, right? RIGHT??? Who deserves a happy wedding more than Jon and Sansa?

      What’s wrong with Tyrion?

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    93. Josh L: But out of curiosity, has there been any discussion about the fact that HBO officially revealed R + L = J is 100% confirmed in one of their infographics?

      “HBO” didn’t reveal anything. The random intern who is running MGoT at the moment put that on the infographic. The actors in the Tower of Joy scene don’t even know what Lyanna was saying (see our Isaac/R. Aramayo interview post) , so why would they?
      That said, it’s pretty obvious from six seasons of clues that R+L=J, combined with the ToJ scenes this season that confirmed it. So I think that’s what the MGoT person did, they simply assumed.

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    94. Sansa: *stands in silence during war council, not even trying to offer her opinions*
      later
      Sansa: “You didn’t ask me what we should do!”
      Jon: “Okay, what should we do?”
      Sansa: “idk I’m not a soldier”

      What about Sansa makes her think she’d be a good ruler?

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    95. Darkrobin,

      True! I just have a feeling that day in the Throne Room holding a dagger to Ned’s throat is going to come back to haunt him!
      I surely hope so.
      I’m worried about Jon. Again.
      LF is a conniving jerk.

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    96. Darkrobin:
      Ser Pounce FTW,

      It has nothing really to do with childhood.

      I’d say childhood does have something to do with it since Sansa’s childhood relationship with Jon was modeled on her mother’s.

      Vyse: If Sansa still trusts Littlefinger even a tiny bit (especially after saying “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger”), then she is the dumbest, stupidest character by far in the show.

      I agree she meant it when she told Jon he was as much a Stark as she was but it seems as though LF helped her see that differently.

      But just because she will team up with him doesn’t mean she’ll trust him. Just as she didn’t really trust Jon but did work with him as much as she felt was safe to in order to reach her goal of getting her home back.

      Vyse:
      Still, I’d say that if the writers are going towards Sansa Vs Jon next season, they have done a horrendous job of setting it up.

      I agree, since many really missed the cues in the last scene.

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    97. Daenerys comes to Westeros with an Armada to conquer , Cersei burning everything , makes herself Queen and we are sitting to analyze the Jon-Sansa-LF relationship !!!! Great PR from the north team !!!!

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    98. After declaring publicly for House Stark, I can see LF playing at the game now by outwardly serving Jon like Varys is for Daeny – albeit with more selfish reasons.

      I think this is how LF will fit in coming season, besides his Sansa issue:

      During the battle for Westeros, (1) LF vs Varys rivalry will reach a head – simultaneously with (2) Tyrion vs Jaime (remember Jaime’s chat with Bronn about Tyrion), and of course (3) Daeny vs Cersei (& then Jon).

      I think of them only Jon, Daeny & Tyrion/Jaime will come out of S7 alive

      On a broader picture there ll be (1) Dorne/Tyrells vs Lannister revenge ; (2) Daeny’s Conquered South vs Jon’s North and (3) Starks vs WW to lead up to S8’s Life vs Death! (Wall falling in S7 finale would be ideal)
      I d imagine those

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    99. Jack Bauer 24,

      Nothing is wrong with, Tyrion. I just think marriage to a Lannister (even the “nice” one) is less appealing than one to Jon.

      Okay, maybe he drinks too much and got overly-attached to Shae but I can forgive those. Tyrion’s great. My fav of the big 3.

      Sue the Fury,

      That’s great. Someone buy that intern a beer!

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    100. Azor Asshai,

      But a war between Jon and Sansa at this point seems silly. They know about the White Walkers threat. Sansa should wait the outcome of that war to worry. They chose Jon because he is the needed warrior and he will be in a very dangerous position. What could Littlefinger do about the White Walkers???? Besides, I hope Bran appears in Winterfell very soon. I want to watch Littlefinger’s face when a legitimate male heir appears to ruin his plans for good.
      I hope Sansa kills Littlefinger, that would be more interesting IMO, maybe with the help of Arya.

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    101. Maureen:
      Sansa: *stands in silence during war council, not even trying to offer her opinions*
      later
      Sansa: “You didn’t ask me what we should do!”
      Jon: “Okay, what should we do?”
      Sansa: “idk I’m not a soldier”

      What about Sansa makes her think she’d be a good ruler?

      Truly bizarre.

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    102. I have to say I’ve come to quite dislike Turner. I like Sansa the character and think the casting is perfect, but whenever I see her interviews I just leave feeling that she doesn’t understand her own character and is providing none of the ideas and insights those around her are.

      Is it just me?

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    103. Maureen:
      What about Sansa makes her think she’d be a good ruler?

      Littlefinger makes her think that. And it’s easy to see why she believes she should get it. She is the only true born Stark in the room at the moment.

      Hal.E.Lujah,

      She’s not the only one talking about this story line.

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    104. I don’t know why fans insist it has to be one thing or the other with Sansa – and I think it’s people just somehow don’t believe a Stark could betray another Stark. What on earth would be the point of GRRM if none of the horrible things that happen DON’T change someone. Why is everyone acting like the Starks are immune to being power hungry, or that 2 people who are nothing alike and were never close could end up lining up against each other?

      I think Sansa does love her brother IN THE ABSTRACT and thinks he’s a good person.

      But there is ZERO DOUBT in my mind that in that scene with LF, she was somewhat taken in by his vision. You can see it, it’s almost like she’s transfixed, and it’s only when he tries to kiss her that she kind of takes a deep breath and shakes herself out of it and stops him.

      She doesn’t look upset or repulsed. And she stops and hears him when he talks about Jon’s claim as a bastard vs. hers.

      So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say that she IS conflicted, because she does crave some authority and recognition, and the fact that she’s so quickly ignored makes flare up the little resentment she has. And there’s one person who is there entirely FOR HER and she actually likes it, even if she doesn’t want to admit it.

      She’s prone to LF’s manipulations AND he’s effective at it. Why is it so hard to believe that while she doesn’t hate Jon outright that it’s totally unreasonable that she would completely agree with LF that she’s the best person to rule?

      I’m sure they’re going to show her disagreeing with Jon’s actions and genuinely believing she’d be a better ruler. I don’t think she’s going to play LF or she’s some master manipulator whose stringing him along. SHE AGREES WITH HIM. She will only turn on him if and when the Hound makes it open what he did to Ned, not until then.

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    105. If they were trying to convey actual struggle between Sansa and Jon, they could have had a transitional scene that would also explain what Manderly, Cerwyn, Glover and the other guys who weren’t in the fight were doing there and what the expectation of that meeting was. Why did they come?

      The last time we saw Jon and Sansa talk he was deferring to her. Not doing what my husband wanted him to do (which was pointing to the mountain of dead bodies outside and wondering how many could have been saved if they’d had Sansa’s information during the battle planning phase-making her face the actual consequences of her choice) but telling her the men of the Vale came for her and she saved their lives–the way he said it, he just left out my lady. Think about his mindset. Of course the Vale wouldn’t come for him and of course she deserves the Lord’s bedchamber. He’s a bastard and she’s a Stark. That was drummed into his head by Cat all his life.
      Jon deferred to her after the battle too. He had every right to finish Ramsay off for killing Rickon and Wun Wun–but Sansa’s confusing expression made him leave the punishment to her. Which is great-because she deserved some payback, but still.

      To be honest, Sansa’s reactions have genuinely confused me a little this season. Maybe the motivation of the character isn’t clear enough in the script? I don’t know. I don’t mean to hate and I’m not attacking-for the hardcore Sansa fans. From Brienne saving her to reunion with Jon she was surprising me with her growth and new understanding. It worked and I loved every minute of it. It was great stuff. Get to planning and I just wasn’t sure where she was coming from-and it was mostly emotion-based, not game based.
      These in particular
      1. Sansa yelling at Jon that they need more men but not telling him she has more men because she sent a raven to LF (also complaining about being left out when she was actually in the room every time an important conversation was happening)
      2. Sansa saying someone would be a fool to trust LF, but trusting LF enough to send Brienne to Riverrun and to send him a raven for more men and to listen to him when he put doubt in her mind about her brother.
      3. Sansa’s face when she saw Jon running with Tormund and Wun Wun toward Ramsay. Was she angry he was alive? Full of consternation he might get inside Winterfell before she did and claim her home? What? I think I REALLY missed what she’s feeling here because to me–she didn’t look particularly relieved to see her brother wasn’t among the mountain of the dead.
      4. Sansa’s face when she was watching her brother bash her rapist’s face in. Was she angry Jon was hitting her prisoner? Disgusted that Jon could be so violent? Worried about her husband? 🙂 Obviously not that-but it was a pretty hostile expression.
      5. Sansa’s face when she meets LF’s eyes after KitN. Is she worried for Jon or realizing LF was right? I could tell exactly what LF was feeling-he has many layers of smirk and that smirk has never been so ticked off-but I have no idea what was going on in Sansa’s head. So Sophie can say whatever she wants in the interviews and I’ll have to take her at her word-because I just don’t know. They didn’t give her the dialogue that would explain her expressions.

      I think, of course there was a missed opportunity for Jon to look at Sansa when KitN started and for her to nod and/or join in and actively choose him. Or for him to say-wait, I’m a bastard and Sansa is the only true Stark in this room-plus she brought the Vale. If they said-we don’t care-you led the charge and were in the thick of it etc–then that’s on them. But drama. Also I think he was in shock at being put in charge again-especially since the last time didn’t turn out so well with the whole stabbing and everything. And tbh, all that’s on his mind is the NK and zombie army. He’s not like, “Awesome, I’m in charge of Winterfell now. Finally.” His little release of air-almost laugh when he stands is like “Am I being pranked again? If someone says Benjen is outside and wants to crown me-I’m leaving.”

      But no one can deny-even the Queen supporters-that he needs to be in charge, not just because the entire North needs to become a kind of NW now to protect the realm, but because out of all the children he is the most like Ned. He’s got a Northern sense of honor, duty and honesty. Doesn’t work well in KL but the North respects the hell out of that and follows it.
      In fact-out of everyone currently in charge in the world Jon is the most worthy to be a king-and I’m not talking about his bloodline. He’s a true reluctant hero. He’s been the ultimate protector since the story began. He helped train Bran, gave Arya her sword and convinced Ned to give his children the direwolves even when he thought he couldn’t have one-which actually showed a lot of his character. He was a leader to a small group of NW that protected Sam from bullies. He escaped his cell where he was being punished so he could protect the LC from a wight. And we all know his list of accomplishments, leading up to him trying to save more of the living from the dead and being killed for it-then agreeing to fight and probably die for Sansa and Rickon when he just wanted a break from fighting after he came back to life.

      They have to come together to protect the realm. It’s the final act of a ginormous story and we really don’t have to play court politics right up to the end. The whole point is that thrones and crowns means nothing if no one is alive to rule or be ruled. I’m not sure Sansa truly understands what’s at stake. She doesn’t want control over her life taken out of her hands, yes, but Jon is trying to protect her and everyone else in the realm from losing what life they have.

      Someone said earlier they were hoping for Arya and Bran to arrive soon and I second that. Someone needs to protect Jon from all this game playing shit and keep Sansa from going dark side.

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    106. Darkrobin,

      I am more and more starting to think this way, and only in a matter of hours after reading yours and Ser Pounce comments. One thing that just occurred to me is that she did not even hesitate when faced with the dilemma of saving her real brother Rickon, to her he was as good as dead, if not expendable. So why would she care about safety of a step-brother? I do see how all her priorities now are about protecting herself. As a victim of repeated abuse she is not what she used to be, and even back then she was a selfish kid. So my guess was after going through all of it she might start to appreciate family more, but I think it is the opposite and everything we saw this season since she met Jon was just part of an elaborate game. It would certainly be consistent with what Sophie, Kit, Liam and D&D are saying.

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    107. Aryamad,

      More than the actors trolling, I think it’s the writers and directors. They tell the actors to show different kind of emotions in different shots for the same scene and afterwards they take the face expression they want. For instance, I remember the “I chose violence” shot from the first trailer where Cersei looked fierce but in the episode they took another shot of Cersei where she looked a little scare or not so sure. As well, the actor that plays Tommen also said they took different shots with different emotions while he watched the fire … and they chose that one of surprise … So, the ambiguity on Sansa’s feelings is on purpose.

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    108. BlueRoseofWinterfell,

      I’d love to talk about Dany and Cersei, but there are no posts about this right now. 🙁 Haven’t Emilia or Lena given any interviews? Sophie’s interviews get posted a lot.

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    109. The show is becoming more and more predictable so I actually hope the Hound won’t rat out LF like many are saying, and that LF actually manages to have the iron throne for a while.

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    110. Dee Stark:
      Honestly no one touch my Jon. Ever. Thanks

      THIS! 🙂

      Nadia,

      I wrote this big long meandering thing and you explained all my confusion. I don’t want it to be true because I don’t see Starks and the North that way. KL and WF are different worlds that should never collide….but you make a lot of sense.

      Ginevra: Sophie really is perfectly cast.As much as comments like these grate against the Jon-loyalty in me, I love how all of the actors and actresses on the show seem to be typecast (except Ramsay and Joffrey and the like, of course).Liam really adores children:just so adorable how he raves about his babies.Sophie truly believes Sansa is a boss ass bitch.Kit is quite into feisty tomboys who happen to be ginger.

      HA! Love it!

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    111. Sansa clearly stated that she considers Jon a Stark, and she expected him to take the Lord’s Chamber ahead of her.

      I know Littlefinger had words with her between that scene and the King in the North scene, but I don’t think it was anywhere near enough to convince her to turn on Jon.

      I think she looked at Littlefinger in fear of what he might do to make his ambitions come true.

      Jon very clearly stands in his way now. And the way Jon stands between Littlefinger and Sansa is quite clearly reminiscent of the way Ned stood in his way when it came to Catelyn.

      I think they’ll definitely try and build up the possibility of Sansa letting Littlefinger’s manipulation get the better of her. But ultimately I expect her to side with Jon.

      On another note, I noticed that the way Jon kissed Sansa on the forehead in the finale was not only reminiscent of how he kissed Bran goodbye back in Season 1, but also it mimicked the way Littlefinger kissed her forehead while trying to convince her to marry Ramsay Bolton.

      I wonder whether this was included to contrast Jon’s genuine affection for his siblings with Littlefinger’s more manipulative behaviour.

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    112. Goodness I love Sophie Turner. She always gives great interviews. Aidan Gillen’s was very fun to read as well. He definitely seems like he has great insight into the story as a whole.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Also this going to be a deeply annoying “offseason” if we have to keep reading Sophie Turner talk about Jon and Sansa.

      but it’s very clear that the Wall isn’t falling soon for a lot of different reasons, and this will be the Northern plot and conflict.

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    114. Aidan literally just pointed out how LF could dance around the Ned issue, and by now we know that if anyone could twist meaning effectively, it would be him. I don’t think Sandor’s role is going to be to out LF, and much as I love him, I don’t think it would work.

      Any Sansa vs Jon plot will be moot when the Night’s King and Co. show up, and only one of them knows how to wield a Valyrian sword.

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    115. Tycho Nestoris,

      I always wanted Jon and Sansa to end together while reading the books because I knew they were cousins. I always picture Jon staying at Winterfell and making a family with Sansa like the original Stark family. But, in the show, I don’t see the chemistry between Kit and Sophie yet. I believe it will be easier for Kit and Emilia to make a more believable love story. Maybe that’s part of the bitter sweet end. Danny and Jon could fall in love, but he decides to marry Sansa to help her lead the North.

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    116. RG,

      Obviously haha. But I’m curious to see what she’ll do, especially when she finds out the Starks have retaken the North and are supported by the Vale. And I want her to find out about the Dany-Olenna-Ellaria alliance, and Tyrion being on Team Dany. And I want to see how she’ll govern….it should be insane.

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    117. “Trustworthy” was definitely a strange choice of words from Sophie Turner. In the full interview, she does say that Sansa is “forever wary” of Littlefinger which makes much more sense.
      I would therefore interpret her “trustworthy” as “you can always trust Littlefinger to do what suits his interests; and if your interests align with his, then you have one hell of an ally on your side”.

      I highly doubt the writers will have Sansa “betray” Jon. They cannot be unaware of Jon’s popularity and such a narrative decision would basically turn Sansa into a villain for many viewers, which I do not think is the writers’ intention.
      But I definitely sense conflict, and it feels pretty organic to me.

      The whole issue of “trust” between them has not been resolved at all as Ser Pounce FTW (great name ! ^^) and others (ash, Magg) said.
      Sansa messed up by not telling Jon about the Vale; she apologised (though we did not get a clear explanation why she did it, it is a beginning)
      Jon messed up too by not fully grabbing the truth of his sister’s warning; he did not apologise.
      So, the asymetry Sophie Turner mentioned is actually there : Jon wants them to trust each other (communicate, talk, operate as a team); he recognises she did not trust him with the info about the Vale but does not acknowledge he too failed to trust her and her judgment about Ramsay. Not out of hypocrisy certainly but out of… Forgetfulness maybe ? Perhaps he is simply so preoccupied with other things he did not think about it. I do not know, to be honest. But it is there and it is bittersweet.

      There is no villain here. They are both right and they both have their reasons for doing what they do.

      Sansa is right to want to be acknowledged for what she achieved. She did give Jon valuable advice and, by bringing in the Knights of the Vale, did more for the success of the Battle than most of the Northern lords put together. As a matter of fact, she did the exact same thing this monument of badassery that is Lyanna Mormont did : as awesome as she is, the Bear Cub did not fight in the battle; she told her lieges to show up, in the same way Sansa told the Vale to show up.
      Furthermore, for the past five years, she has suffered in the name of the North and the Starks : she was imprisoned, held hostage, beaten, humiliated and many other aweful things because she is a Stark, because she is “the key to the North”. And she did not give up, did not commit suicide though she must have been tempted. Those are her battle scars and they are no less deserving than others.

      Jon is right to be confused and preoccupied by things other than his sister’s need for recognition and safety. His eyes are firmly on what is going on beyond the Wall and, out of nowhere, here he is : victor of the Battle of Winterfell, proclaimed KITN by people who two weeks ago, for the overwhelming majority of them, did not care for him, his family or his life. Nobody asks him whether he is OK with it; nobody cares if he thinks it is a good idea to declare independence right now…
      He is put upon by the same people who pulled the same trick with Robb a couple of years ago, with the infamous results we (and he and Sansa !) know. And, on top of everything, he has to save the living in a war against the dead !

      No villain, just two very damaged people who sincerely love and appreciate each other (Sansa called him a Stark !) but seriously need to talk. Really talk.

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    118. Flayed Potatoes,

      Oh no kidding. I mean she wants Sansa obviously-BUT Olenna and Ellaria and Tyrion all banding together to take her out? She will flip her already crazy lid. Definitely insane.
      Can’t wait.

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    119. I don’t really mind if next season Sansa will make Jon’s life a bit more difficult, it certainly is in character for her – believing LF’s bullshit once again, and wanting to be a fairytale queen just because that’s what LF says. I don’t fear for Jon in this case, his plot armor is quite strong. LF or Sansa won’t be his undoing. And I really don’t think Sansa will take it as far as outright betraying Jon.

      What I fear most is that they may continue to dumb down Jon – to make Sansa seem smarter. Jon is supposed to be a smart man, who can deal with politics as well (at least in the books), he manages to make alliances, arranges a loan from the Iron Bank – and such stuff. And we never actually see it on the show.

      I want to see Jon actually doing some ruling, where he can show that he understands the role of a ruler outside of making military tactics. If they leave it to Sansa, who should now nothing at all about such stuff, and she actually manages to do it better that Jon, I will be pissed.

      Sansa would make a perfect consort to a Lord or a King in times of peace. I can’t see her as someone who rules in her own right. Hell, I can see even Arya doing that, but not Sansa. She did nothing so far to gain my trust in her.

      And Arya should really hurry home. Leave Cercei to Jaime, join the brotherhood and the Hound, and go home. Please. The way they handle time, she should be back in the first ep. in S7.

      I’m not sure about Bran and his mark though. I guess he will cross the Wall and goes home – but if it’s really the reason why the Others can cross the Wall, it will be incredibly stupid. But him being back home to support Jon would be really nice. Sansa can’t say a word then: Bran’s claim is much bigger than hers.

      I kinda hope that Jon learns R+L from Bran before he meets Arya – so by the time they reconnect, they will be aware they are only cousins. If there is anybody who can comfort him in this situation, it’s Arya. And it may lead to more… (yes, I’ve always thought the main point of R+L in-story is to make Jon/Arya legal. I’m probably wrong, but a girl can hope…)

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    120. TFT:
      The show is becoming more and more predictable so I actually hope the Hound won’t rat out LF like many are saying, and that LF actually manages to have the iron throne for a while.

      Goodness! I have gone back and forth on this so much. It really feels like LF needs to get his comeuppance but so many men like Littlefinger never get what they deserve and I wonder if Grrm will decide to follow this rather than the more predictable “bad guy goes down at the end” route. It does feel like a fitting culmination for Sansa’s arc but, who knows.

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    121. Aszusz,

      I think the Arya Jon thing creeps me out way more than anything because they really do show Jon loving her like a little sister. I’m not sure he ever really felt sibling-like with Sansa, but Arya? Man.

      And with what Arya’s turned into, I wonder.

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    122. Pigeon: Aidan literally just pointed out how LF could dance around the Ned issue, and by now we know that if anyone could twist meaning effectively, it would be him. I don’t think Sandor’s role is going to be to out LF, and much as I love him, I don’t think it would work.

      Except it’s a little different because Sandor was practically standing next to LF/Ned when it happened, and he only needs to really tell one person and have her believe him for this to basically mean the end of LF, and that person is Sansa. Whatever her conflict is, I think Sansa does know in her heart of hearts that Littlefinger is untrustworthy (and that she considers Sandor perhaps moreso). If she gets final confirmation of just how untrustworthy from this source, then I think she will kill him.

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    123. Oh come on i think the game is simple !!!! If we go back in season 1 and see how LF played with Ned until the moment he betrayed him !!!! He made Ned to believe that he was his ally they even made plans together and the right moment he put his dagger in his throat , Sansa will play the same game, she will make him to believe that they want the same things and when she takes from him what she wants she will put the same dagger in LF throat !! Jon can’t play this game nor Sir Davos they are too morals for these kind of games !!!!

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    124. ACME:

      Sansa is right to want to be acknowledged for what she achieved. She did give Jon valuable advice and, by bringing in the Knights of the Vale, did more for the success of the Battle than most of the Northern lords put together. As a matter of fact, she did the exact same thing this monument of badassery that is Lyanna Mormont did : as awesome as she is, the Bear Cub did not fight in the battle; she told her lieges to show up, in the same way Sansa told the Vale to show up.
      Furthermore, for the past five years, she has suffered in the name of the North and the Starks : she was imprisoned, held hostage, beaten, humiliated and many other aweful things because she is a Stark, because she is “the key to the North”. And she did not give up, did not commit suicide though she must have been tempted. Those are her battle scars and they are no less deserving than others.

      Jon is right to be confused and preoccupied by things other than his sister’s need for recognition and safety. His eyes are firmly on what is going on beyond the Wall and, out of nowhere, here he is : victor of the Battle of Winterfell, proclaimed KITN by people who two weeks ago, for the overwhelming majority of them, did not care for him, his family or his life. Nobody asks him whether he is OK with it; nobody cares if he thinks it is a good idea to declare independence right now…
      He is put upon by the same people who pulled the same trick with Robb a couple of years ago, with the infamous results we (and he and Sansa !) know. And, on top of everything, he has to save the living in a war against the dead !

      No villain, just two very damaged people who need to talk. Really talk.

      Great discussion and yes-her scars are deep and just as worthy of acknowledgment.
      And they definitely need to talk. This could all be resolved with a few long fireside chats about something other than Old Nan’s soup.
      My issue with her advice before the battle is the lack of talking. She just said “Ramsay doesn’t fall into traps, he lays them” and “Don’t do what he wants you to do” and “It’s not enough (men)” Very vague-no specifics for Jon to grab on to.
      What she should have said was (for example)–“When I say you don’t know him like I do-let me give you an example. You should have seen what he did to Theon. You remember Theon right? He tortured him until he had no idea who he was except for a servant named Reek who slept in a kennel. He found the one person who was nice to me in WF and took me for a “romantic walk” to her flayed body. I was locked in a bedroom and raped every night and the first night he made Theon watch…He finds the thing that will hurt you the most and he uses it against you, tricks you into having hope so he can rip it away. If Rickon isn’t dead yet he’ll use him to draw you out. Plan for that in your strategy session.”

      Communication is the key 🙂

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    125. Aryamad:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      I think she’s just trying to troll. /shrug I could be wrong but I get the impression Sophie likes to mess with the viewers to throw them off. ?

      If this were Sophie, Sophie, and Sophie saying all these things, I would likely agree. However, we’ve had quotes from Sophie, Benioff, Kit, Liam, and now Aiden – every key player in these scenes – all saying essentially the same thing. This is a real thing. Sophie isn’t just making this shit up.

      I will say that we won’t know the outcome of this conflict until next season, but to deny the conflict is to deny that all those creating what we saw had any idea what they were doing, including the writer and producer.

      Benioff from Inside the Episode: Sansa, she does love her brother, and they’ve had a conflicted past. Over the course of this season, they’ve come to really rely upon each other, but she doesn’t necessarily trust him completely. She didn’t tell him about the meeting with Littlefinger. She didn’t tell him that she summoned the Knights of the Vale. There was definitely a little hint of conflict there. We see that come out in Episode 9, where she’s at the war council and no one asks her opinion despite the fact that she knows Ramsay better than anyone. So I think there’s a little bit of anger about that and a little bit of jealousy. And that relationship will be crucial to watch.

      Kit, in the King in the North video: Thrones is really at the heart of it – about dysfunctional families.

      Sophie: There’s always been tension between them because since they were little Sansa has always looked up to her mother and always just taken on her mother’s views of everything. And her mother didn’t really like Jon because of the whole affair thing. It doesn’t mean that they don’t love each other, but it’s just typical sibling tension.

      Jon: I think Jon is oblivious. He hasn’t actually learned his lesson from trying to pay attention to what she’s feeling. He says he has, but he’s asking her to trust him. He’s not listening, watching, and observing her. I think that could be a real problem for him.

      Liam: Jon is the right man for the job. We all want a leader who’s going to be decent and honorable. And I think he’s definitely entitled to be running Winterfell, although Sansa might have a problem with that, I fear. Her relationship with Jon Snow, I think, is an indication of what’s going to come. And I’m not sure it’s going to be pretty.

      Sophie: He’s named King in the North and she kind of gets no credit for it. Jon doesn’t acknowledge everything his sister has done for him, after all that they’ve been through. And it’s not that she’s looking for praise or anything. She did it because she wants revenge and also she wants her home back. But Jon, he’s so naive! So Sansa’s just a little bit agitated, is all.

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    126. Littlefinger has screwed so many people over… it’s about time Littlefinger get’s what he deserves…. Ramsey’s Hound feast

      Littlefinger starts a war by having Lysa Tully kill her husband Jon Arryn…. Who raised Ned Stark and King Robert

      Littlefinger murders Lysa Tully

      Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark leading to his execution

      Littlefinger betrayed Loras and Margaery Tyrell for Cersei

      Littlefinger assassinated King Joffery

      Littlefinger betrayed Cersei which led to her insanity

      Littlefinger betrayed Sansa Stark to be Warden of the North

      I hope Cersei or Jon Snow or Sansa say enough is enough and shows Littlefinger who the boss is now

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    127. Nadia,

      Arya and Jon genuinly loved each other as children (like brother/sister). But they haven’t met ever since, and they are both changed. A lot. Now they are both grown ups. So there is room for practically anything.
      And Jon and Sansa definitely felt sibling-like: there are siblings who are not particularly close to each other, it’s rather common. They still liked each other.

      However, the Arya/Jon relationship always puzzled me, because it’s so weird. Finishing each other’s sentences? They are soul mates, if anything. I wouldn’t call their relationship a regular brother/sister one.

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    128. Aabe mentioned this earlier (lost track of the post), but you definitely see the actors’ (in)experience in these interviews. I don’t recall much from any of Isaac’s interviews, but I’ve definitely noticed Sophie’s and Maisie’s greenness when it comes to this sort of thing. They’re good onscreen but they still have a lot to learn about interacting with the press. It’s telling that Sophie was the one cast member who genuinely believed that Kit wasn’t coming back after Season 5, to the point of writing him a goodbye letter.

      Lest anyone think otherwise, I do not say any of this as someone who disliked Sophie or her performance. Quite the contrary. I am only saying she needs to work on her interview (interviewee?) skills. Then again, she could be trolling us.

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    129. ACME: Jon messed up too by not fully grabbing the truth of his sister’s warning; he did not apologise.

      I’m not sure why Jon should have apologized: Sansa’s “advice” lacked any real advice, it was as general as it could get. And I just don’t think that even if that would have cause a lost battle, Jon would apologize for trying to save Rickon’s life.

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    130. after sophie’s, “jon is sexist remarks” i take everything that actress says about the show with a grain of salt. i could quote like 8 lines where jon is asking her for input or telling her she made the right play or giving her character credit. does she even read his lines or listen to what kit’s saying when they are doing a scene?

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    131. I think of all the storylines, this is the one I’m least interested in next season. The whole Jon and Sansa feud just never worked out for me, it seemed totally manufactured, and it seems like it’s just going to be more of the same next season.

      Cersei going mad in King’s Landing could be alright, but there aren’t many characters left in King’s Landing for her to play off of, with the exception of Jaime, Qyburn, and Zombie Mountain. I’m guessing next season the common people will rebel in KL and she’ll eventually burn the city (and kill Jaime before doing so).

      Dany is heading for Westeros and that’s all well and good, but she has a massive army and 3 dragons, where is the challenge? I think Euron will pose a threat to her early on next season, it may well even be a catastrophic threat. I anticipate his fleet will meet Dany in the middle of the narrow sea next season. I welcome it to be honest, watching her march all over Westeros won’t be terribly interesting.

      I don’t know what will happen with Chucky I mean Arya, all I know is I couldn’t be more disappointed with the end of her arc last season. Probably will have a collision with the Brotherhood without Banners, and Mel might be with them at that point.

      Sam at the Citadel could be intriguing. I’m guessing he’ll meet up with Jorah as he tries to find the cure to Greyscale.

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    132. Mag:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      Cersei would have to hire a Faceless Man to reach Sansa at Winterfell, specially now that Winter is here. She needs to focus in the South threat first.

      … so Jaqen goes there, meets Arya again, and she persuades him to kill LF instead. It doesn’t matter for the Many Faced God after all: he gets his face.

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    133. ManderlyPieCompany,

      Why does everyone keep saying SOPHIE is trolling and doesn’t get it?

      Literally every actor and writer has said the same thing.

      Liam said it
      Kit said it
      Benioff said it

      Rather than say “Sophie is a troll,” how about perhaps everyone try to wrap their heads around the fact that this is ACTUALLY A PLOT FOR NEXT SEASON

      And before we bash D&D why is everyone acting like this is out of the realm of possibility in the books to get Sansa – when she gets to LF – vs Jon, with LF advancing her claim?

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    134. RG:
      My issue with her advice before the battle is the lack of talking. She just said “Ramsay doesn’t fall into traps, he lays them” and “Don’t do what he wants you to do” and “It’s not enough (men)” Very vague-no specifics for Jon to grab on to.

      I do see your point. It is true that more specific advice would probably have penetrated a tad better.
      Sansa did tell him that Ramsay liked to “hurt” people (not kill or maim, “hurt”) and that Rickon was as good as dead; these two things put together do, in my opinion, draw a pretty clear picture but they are not easy to accept. I believe even Sansa needed time to come the conclusion that her baby brother was beyond saving. So, for someone like Jon, who does want to save everybody, it is downright unfathomable.

      The main problem in that situation, as I understand it, was that Jon and Sansa were not talking about the same thing.
      Jon thinks in terms of army vs. army, which makes all the sense in the world because he is a general. A military leader.
      Sansa thinks in terms of Jon vs. Ramsay, which makes all the sense in the world because she knows Bolton and understands that he is going to make it as personal as he can.
      Jon wants tactical, practical advice on how to draw his battle plan. Things Sansa, who freely admits she knows nothing about such things, cannot provide. All she can give is information on the mindset Jon should adopt once on the battlefield.
      To Jon, it sounds esoteric or banal, of course. But only because he and his sister are not on the same wavelength at that moment in time.

      RG:
      Great discussion and yes-her scars are deep and just as worthy of acknowledgment.
      And they definitely need to talk. This could all be resolved with a few long fireside chats about something other than Old Nan’s soup.

      I am sure Old Nan’s soup is deserving of several long conversations. As for her pies, they could probably justify a filibuster ! ^^

      RG:
      Communication is the key

      They will get there. Eventually.
      After all, the Starks are always right. Eventually 😉

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    135. Aszusz,

      Yeah, I fear they will dumb down Jon to make her look like a “player”. I’d like for the show to adapt some of the things he did in ADWD as LC, but I’m not holding my breath.

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    136. maria,

      This suggestion that she intentionally withheld the info on the Vale in hopes that both Jon and Rickon died so she can gain power means Sansa is evil. Worse than Littlefinger even, on par with Cersei. So I don’t agree with Aiden that maybe Sansa withheld the info in hopes of a power play. To believe that means you have to believe she hoped Rickon and Jon would die and she’d be seen as the conquering hero which would make Sansa power hungry maniac. I see zero evidence for any of that.

      Then again, I never saw any evidence for this supposed tension these people keep talking up either.

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    137. Quinton O’Connor:
      I wonder if Baelish will try to pin Jon into a corner.

      LITTLEFINGER: “King Snow…”
      JON: “What is it, Lord Baelish? Be quick about it. I have no time for your deceits.”
      LITTLEFINGER: “Your words are harsh, your grace. I merely come bearing news… of your uncle.”
      JON: “…”

      To which Jon muses… where have I heard that before?

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    138. Aszusz: I’m not sure why Jon should have apologized: Sansa’s “advice” lacked any real advice, it was as general as it could get. And I just don’t think that even if that would have cause a lost battle, Jon would apologize for trying to save Rickon’s life.

      I cannot say I agree, unfortunately.

      Jon had a battle plan which relied entirely on waiting Ramsay out.
      Sansa told him that Ramsay enjoyed hurting people and would never, ever, allow Rickon to live, no matter what happened, thereby informing him that his battle plan would be much harder to abide by than he imagined. It may not have been the most specific of advice but it was extremely sound.

      I am not in any way denying that Jon’s decision to try to save Rickon made all the sense in the world from an emotional standpoint. I am not so devoid of humanity.
      However, from a strategical standpoint, it was a complete disaster.
      To emphasise that, the writers even had Tormund tell Jon “don’t” when the latter got on his horse to pick up his baby brother. The only way they could have been more blatant would have been with an Admiral Ackbar meme (“It’s a trap !!!”)

      Jon did not truly listen to his sister; he only heard “don’t do what Ramsay want you to do” and dismissed it as banal. The rest of her advice, he did not pay attention to (probably because he did not want to hear he could not save his brother… Who wants to hear they cannot save the people they love ?) even though it would have helped.

      So I do believe an apology would have made sense. I am not thinking of Jon getting on his hands and knees, begging for Sansa’s forgiveness but a simple acknowldgement of the fact that what she told him was not pointless.
      It is not much, really. A passing comment would have sufficed. The fact that the writers did not include it seems foreshadow-y to me.

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    139. I actually do believe Turner and Gillen. I’ve never liked Sansa as a person, my least favorite Stark. Sure, she’s been through hell and back, anyone with a soul should feel sympathy for her, but she’s also always been a brat with a ridiculous sense of entitlement. Yes, she did save Jon, and she has some political skill. But that doesn’t mean Sansa should get ALL the credit and rule the North. I don’t know why she’s acting like she is getting snubbed, Jon acknowledged she saved him and I think he would gladly make her Hand of the King or some other council position of power.

      Sansa has spent too much time around dark characters and is turning into a dark character herself. I fully expect her to conspire with LF and betray Jon because of her sense of entitlement and newfound power thirst. Part of the reason I expect that is just because this is Game of Thrones after all, they love creating complicated grey-area characters and they need a new tense, juicy storyline of betrayal to keep the show going (it’s what makes the show so good, I just don’t like this particular instance of it).

      As for LF, I really do love the character of Baelish. He’s brilliantly crafted character, I love watching the way he slithers up the ladder and masterfully manipulates people to gain power. But again, Sansa is not the person I want to see him manipulate.

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    140. There two possibilities here:

      They are all misdirecting and they love to do that.Obviously there will be some tension next season but Sansa will fuck LF up in the end.

      Or they fucked up with setting all of this up considering that’s not what I got from all these episodes at all especially if they want us to think Sansa is the wronged party here.If she goes and backstabs Jon that would make her the most hated character ever considering all her flimsy reasons when Jon will do anything for her and their family and has done nothing wrong

      In any case #JonSnowdidnothingwrong2k16 lol

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    141. orange:
      maria,
      To believe that means you have to believe she hoped Rickon and Jon would die and she’d be seen as the conquering hero which would make Sansa power hungry maniac. I see zero evidence for any of that.

      ACME:
      Sansa told him that Ramsay enjoyed hurting people and would never, ever, allow Rickon to live, no matter what happened, thereby informing him that his battle plan would be much harder to abide by than he imagined. It may not have been the most specific of advice but it was extremely sound.

      Jon did not truly listen to his sister; he only heard “don’t do what Ramsay want you to do” and dismissed it as banal. The rest of her advice, he did not pay attention to (probably because he did not want to hear he could not save his brother… Who wants to hear they cannot save the people they love ?) even though it would have helped.

      There’s been a lot of discussion of how Jon really made a huge error in riding out for Rickon but the truth of the matter is in both these comments. Jon’s whole purpose in riding to Winterfell was to save Rickon and no, he wasn’t going to not try to do that. This mirrors the books where Jon plans to ride south to save Arya, not Winterfell. It’s Sansa who’s aiming for Winterfell. So, while I don’t think she’s evil, she was able to make the decision to write off Rickon in order to gain the larger prize of Winterfell. Jon never would be able to to do that because that price would be too great for him to pay. It highlights the difference in the characters and their arcs. Sansa needed to harden her heart to survive while Jon finally chose to listen to his heart and not follow his duty (after being tested with this dilemma twice before with Ned/Robb and Quorin).

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    142. ash:
      Its too bad that Margery is gone and can’t be around Sansa with good advice.She needs someone to advise her, but Sansa has been advised and mentored by Cersei, LF, and to some extent Ramsey; she wants to play the game, she wants to be good at it, she wants to come in her own.But she has always been so sheltered that I am not sure she is able to do so.Shes a smart young woman but I don’t think she has the street smarts to make it in this game the way she wants to.I like Sansa and how she’s changed – more cautious, stronger – but shes still so afraid and needing direction. Im not sure who would give her that right now – Maybe Brienne comes back and acts as her Hand before she gets herself in too much trouble

      Thinking more – does Sansa know what she wants? If so, what is it?

      Personally, I don’t think Sansa wants to play the game at all but knows now that she has to. She has seen first hand what “power” has cost her family and the kingdom as a whole. Her “mentors” have been those who built their games on lies and deceit. I totally agree she needs someone in an advisory role who will tell her straight and who knows how these liars and manipulators operate. Someone who doesn’t have a stake in the game, other than to protect those worthy of it. Someone who isn’t interested in claim or their own honor code. Brienne may understand the moving pieces on the game board, but she has never been a part of the political fold. Sansa needs to know that her words and deeds won’t come back to hurt or haunt her. That her interests are the interest of those who have her ear and vice versa.
      For me, that person is Sandor.

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    143. Nadia:
      And before we bash D&D why is everyone acting like this is out of the realm of possibility in the books to get Sansa – when she gets to LF – vs Jon, with LF advancing her claim?

      Well, if you’re going to discuss its potential relation to the books, the context is very different. Book!Sansa wanted to get away from Littlefinger, but is stuck under his control for lack of any alternative and because he’s a great psychological manipulator. Show!Sansa has been effectively free to do whatever she wants since 408, but pretty consistently plays into Baelish’s hands anyway, even though she doesn’t have to.

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    144. ACME,

      He did nothing wrong and shouldn’t apologize for trying to save their brother.I would love for Sansa to have been in his place and see what would she do in that situation if she would just stay put and let her little brother get murdered because he is a lost cause anyway.And I would love to see how the audience would have reacted to it considring it went so well with Stannis

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    145. Nadia:
      ManderlyPieCompany,

      Why does everyone keep saying SOPHIE is trolling and doesn’t get it?

      Literally every actor and writer has said the same thing.

      Liam said it
      Kit said it
      Benioff said it

      Rather than say “Sophie is a troll,” how about perhaps everyone try to wrap their heads around the fact that this is ACTUALLY A PLOT FOR NEXT SEASON

      Yeah, I can’t help but think a lot of people are denying it outright simply it because it doesn’t mesh with this whole “fan-approved” vision of the endgame, with all the “bad guys” (read: LF) getting their just desserts so the “good guys” can all team up to defeat the WWs (which sounds way too conventional for a story that was meant to provide an alternative take on the fantasy genre), and no more significant political intrigue or real risk being posed to all of their favorite characters. It’s like people have completely forgotten what kind of story this has been–the politics, drama, and inter-family conflicts aren’t going to just go away–and now expect to get some kind of fairy tale ending where the fans get everything they want. It boggles my mind, especially when GRRM and D&D have been on the record that this is NOT going to happen and things are going to end on a bittersweet note.

      What people think and want to happen for the Starks while going ahead seems way too “sweet” for this story, so this (potential) Jon-Sansa conflict is precisely the kind of thing that threatens that idea. It’ll definitely be interesting to see how all of this actually unfolds.

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    146. Hey, do you remember last year when you posted some filming pictures in Spain I believe, where we could clearly spot Varys and

      Shae, Tyrion’s dead girlfriend?

      What happened with that? Why we didn’t get to see her in Season 6?

        Quote  Reply

    147. Murderotica926,
      I do not think anyone is arguing in favour of Sansa getting “all” the credit. It would be absurd, in my opinion. It is not an “either/or” game. The Battle was won thanks both to Jon and Sansa (and the Freefolk and the Vale); both should therefore get public acknowledgement for that fact. It is a rather simple matter really.
      As things stand, it is not yet the case. Jon got all the official rewards (though I would argue it remains to be seen whether it is truly a blessing….) and Sansa got none.
      If things change (if the Northern Lords proclaim Sansa something or other, if Jon gives her a title, if Sansa herself revendicates a status, etc), then everything will be fine. But it has not happened yet. Herein lies the potential for conflict…

      Ser Pounce FTW
      I wholeheartedly agree with you in relation to the respective trajectories of Jon and Sansa when it comes to chosing one’s heart (or not).
      However, I would argue that, in the very specific case of Rickon, there was no choice to be made. Even if Sansa had decided to sacrifice herself, return to Bolton and have a child with him in exchange for her baby brother, he would not have let him live : Rickon was the legitimate Stark heir, the rightful Lord of Winterfell. By the male line. His mere existence threatened Ramsay’s hold on the North.
      I believe the sole reason why Bolton did not kill him the second he got his hands on him was to use him as bait. To give the elder Stark siblings just enough of an illusion of hope to do something foolish. Which he did, very effectively.
      But there never was any real hope.

      Jenny
      Oh I never said it would have been easy ! It would have been absolutely horrible, heartwrenching, torturous, soul-shattering. A medieval Sophie’s choice.
      Which was Ramsay’s point, to be fair.
      As for the audience’s reaction, well… It all depends on how it is written, shot and contextualised.
      I would not compare it to Stannis’s actions though, to be honest : Stannis chose to have his daughter burnt at the stake by a religious fanatic. Under duress, of course, but he still chose. He was the one who put his daughter in mortal danger.
      Jon did not choose to have his brother shot arrows at like a hunting prey. He was in no way, shape or form responsible for what was taking place on that battlefield. He was being psychologically tortured, toyed with by a character who had been previously established as a sadistic murderer (and a formidable archer).

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    148. Azor Asshai: It boggles my mind, especially when GRRM and D&D have been on the record that this is NOT going to happen and things are going to end on a bittersweet note.

      What people think and want to happen for the Starks while going ahead seems way too “sweet” for this story, so this (potential) Jon-Sansa conflict is precisely the kind of thing that threatens that idea. It’ll definitely be interesting to see how all of this actually unfolds.

      Good point. Part of me wouldn’t be surprised if Sansa and LF bite it next season. Fact of the matter is that neither of them is equipped to deal with the White Walkers, and that is what the North is focused on. LF has always been about himself and outsmarting his enemies, but how do you outsmart an elemental force of nature? Another possibility is that he and Sansa will take each other out.

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    149. Sansa’s strength is the kind that’s about enduring, not initiating or risk-taking – as would have been deemed appropriate for women in her era. She was raised to be male-identified, to take her cues from the alpha male in her life, to defer to him. Add to that the fact that she has been repeatedly traumatized and probably has remnants of Stockholm syndrome going on. While she doesn’t want to be anybody’s tool anymore, she is by no means equipped to be a leader. As with most people who experience brutal treatment while young, the only way that will feel safe for her to be aggressive is to be passive/aggressive. All this adds up to a scenario where it makes perfect sense for her to sway toward the point of view of whichever man she happens to be with at any given time. Lots and lots of women, especially young women, are like that even without having lived through rape and captivity and so on.

      So I guess what I’m saying is that we probably shouldn’t expect Sansa to be of one mind. When she’s with Jon she will feel solidarity with Jon and when she’s with Littlefinger she will defer to his savvy at playing the game. I think that her sense of self and purpose is still quite malleable at this point.

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    150. Mark,

      As much as I like Jon, I have to disagree. He’s good on the battlefield, but he’s too much like his fathers (the one who sired him and the one who raised him) and look what happened to them.

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    151. Davos Seaworth,

      All due respect, that’s complete and utter nonsense. He’s talking about book to screen (you very clearly have not read the books if you think book Jon’s only competence is on the battlefield) and he is 100% correct that they have massively dumbed the character down for the show. That isn’t even up for debate.

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    152. orange: maria

      I’m trying to explain why Sansa hid the existence of the Vale. I can only think of three reasons:

      – Show had her hide the Vale, and didn’t expect the audience to find that strange. That is not realistic, going by the responses to her decision making on various forums and going by the interviews here.

      – She hid the Vale because she is too traumatized to think straight. This is problematic for me, as if true, Sansa is still the damsel in distress, the sole Stark sibling whose training failed. I can’t accept that, given statements that this is a “new Sansa,” given visual clues that her training succeeded: See Sansa’s black feathered dress, end of season 4.

      – She hid the Vale as part of a game to win Winterfell. For me, this fits everything. The objection tends to be “but that makes her evil.” It certainly doesn’t make her a sweet, helpless young girl. But Arya just baked a Frey pie and fed it to Walder Frey, then cut Walder’s throat, and no one complained that this makes Arya morally questionable. Arya took revenge for her family. Sansa is working to put a competent Stark in charge of Winterfell and the North, and as far as she’s concerned, Jon is not that Stark.

      Her gaming might not be long lived–I think she’ll discover Littlefinger’s part in killing her father, and take revenge. Sooner than later the Walkers will show up and all gaming will stop. Meanwhile, though, playing a game Littlefinger would be proud of is fitting for Sansa at this point in the show.

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    153. i would be interested in seeing the outcome of the information of how sansa was brought to ramsey. she told the kit in the north, excuse me the king in the north LF had sold her to the boltons. yet, LF told lord royce they were attacked on the way to the fingers and sansa was taken away from him. sansa, LF, and lord royce are all at WF to have their stories compared. LF obviously lied to lord royce, as well as threatened him, bullied him and falsely accused him of being the one to have helped abduct sansa. there is no love lost there. he doesn’t trust LF as it is. but sansa is not exactly truthful in her accounting. she had the chance to walk away from the arrangement but LF talked her into it. she thought she could handle the boltons and get her revenge but got in over her head because no one, including LF, knew what ramsey was like.
      if and when the hound ever arrives hopefully the truth will be known of LF’s betrayal of ned stark. although, admittedly, LF holding a knife to ned’s throat may have kept him (ned) from trying to fight his way out and getting himself killed right at the get go, thus saving his life just so crazy joff and the executioner could take it later. had joff not been such a psycho, ned may still be alive today serving at the wall as was the original plan. at least that would probably be LF’s spin on the whole thing.
      as for the look on sansa’s face when jon was named KitN, i saw it as pride in her brother until she saw LF looking at them. then it turned to ‘oh, crap’. i saw her as smiling until she saw LF watching them. but i’m sure others saw things differently and that’s ok. everyone has their own way of looking at things.

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    154. elybe,

      And you just proved what happens when you assume. I read books 1-3 back in 2004 and the next two when they came out. I just reached a different conclusion than you. BTW, it always amuses me when fans think they know better than the people paid to do the actual writing.

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    155. Sophie has achieved the goal of converting Sansa from ‘Boss.Ass.Bitch’ to ‘Bitch’ in a single interview. Just when many haters were starting to like Sansa..

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    156. kit_hepburn: Except it’s a little different because Sandor was practically standing next to LF/Ned when it happened, and he only needs to really tell one person and have her believe him for this to basically mean the end of LF, and that person is Sansa. Whatever her conflict is, I think Sansa does know in her heart of hearts that Littlefinger is untrustworthy (and that she considers Sandor perhaps moreso). If she gets final confirmation of just how untrustworthy from this source, then I think she will kill him.

      True, but then I get the feeling that Littlefinger will simply pull out a secret CCTV recording of the ‘dying’ Sandor telling Arya:

      “And your sister. Your pretty sister. I should’ve taken her. That night the Blackwater burned, I should’ve fucked her bloody. At least I’d have one happy memory.”

      Because ya know, Littlefinger. ? “Now who do you believe, Shansa???”

      *Sandor bangs head on stone wall, stones fall apart*

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    157. Mag,
      Ginevra,

      I see what you mean. What they’re saying is definitely a bit conflicting to the visuals of the show. I wonder if they all have meetings specifically about how to lead fans off the trail. Something is definitely fishy. I can’t see Sansa betraying Jon in the future now that they’re reunited. If she does she’s going right back on my list of least favorite characters lol. I was so pissed at her for not siding with Arya over Nymeria biting Joffrey in S01.

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    158. orange,

      Exactly. I have never misread this show before (or any shows for that matter), so you can imagine my dismay when I heard the actors and producers basically negating what I just saw. When I first heard the show’s interpretation, I thought well, I guess I need glasses. However, many people have spoken up about this, so it isn’t just me.

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    159. I don’t think it’ll be Sansa vs. Jon, they don’t have the time left to navigate that, but there will be conflict about how the Starks move forward. Sansa might even go South and reclaim the Riverlands. Who knows at this point. I just think with the Hound so close, it’ll be brilliant if he factors into her storyline again, agree with a comment above with regards to him being a sound influence on her. Interesting dynamic with Brienne sworn to Sansa also.

      As for this Arya and Jon reunion, it’ll be emotional and heartwarming at first I’m sure but when reality sets in Jon will realise that Arya is a cold, merciless, killing machine. Don’t know how he’ll handle this? Point is they are not who they were once were, blood is blood but Jon and Arya might not he able to connect anymore.

      A Sansa and Arya reunion is one I’m really waiting for. Ned’s line of them being two sides of the same coin has always struck a chord with me and reminds me of my two sisters who are complete opposites. I’ve always thought that these two could be the real dream team given the divergent journeys and personalities.

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    160. Davos Seaworth,

      If that’s the case, I seriously recommend re-reading them, because Jon is explicitly described as being highly perceptive for his age from the moment we meet him. Benjen literally says to him, “You don’t miss much, do you Jon?” From the very first description of him: “Jon’s eyes were a gray so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little that they did not see.” There’s no ambiguity there.

      Furthermore, I suggest reading ADWD, in which Jon (as Lord Commander) underhandedly gets involved in Northern politics despite his oath to take no part (think Ned would ever do that?), gives Stannis sound military advice and tells him how to recruit more Northerners to his cause, negotiates a hefty loan with the Iron Bank, and applies the scientific method to learn more about wights. Book Jon is highly intelligent, capable, and intuitive. What he isn’t is a legendary warrior.

      Look, I can accept that the show is its own entity at this point, but lets call a spade a spade. D&D have chosen to dumb the character down. It is what it is.

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    161. Also love Aiden’s insight. Wonder how he felt not being featured as much this season. I do chuckle when he refers to his character in the first person.

      As for Sophie, love her. She’s off the cuff and a clown in interviews so I never take what she says as sacred but denigrating her as a person for not understanding her character is harsh.

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    162. ACME:

      Ser Pounce FTW
      I wholeheartedly agree with you in relation to the respective trajectories of Jon and Sansa when it comes to chosing one’s heart (or not).
      However, I would argue that, in the very specific case of Rickon, there was no choice to be made. Even if Sansa had decided to sacrifice herself, return to Bolton and have a child with him in exchange for her baby brother, he would not have let him live : Rickon was the legitimate Stark heir, the rightful Lord of Winterfell. By the male line. His mere existence threatened Ramsay’s hold on the North.
      I believe the sole reason why Bolton did not kill him the second he got his hands on him was to use him as bait. To give the elder Stark siblings just enough of an illusion of hope to do something foolish. Which he did, very effectively.
      But there never was any real hope.

      I totally agree, ACME. And yet, perhaps because there was no hope is the very reason Jon felt he absolutely had to try. The Sansa that left Winterfell wouldn’t have been able to write him off and the Jon that remained at the Wall/didn’t join in Robb’s war might have been able to leave Rickon up to his fate. I think this exercise was to define character growth more than anything else. Oh, and to create some drama 🙂

      And that’s why I don’t think it was a mistake on Jon’s part. He couldn’t do anything else. He almost had no choice once he bought into saving his brother. While I understand what the directors are after with this “he didn’t listen to me” the truth is he did but couldn’t do what she wanted and hoped he would do. Any other victim and everyone would have played their role. But he couldn’t abandon his own baby brother when the boy was right there in front of him. So that’s hardly the same thing as not listening to her and her reaction makes Sansa come off as petty and cold. I fear this whole story line will make her look very hard and calculating when it’s all said and done and many fans will be unhappy.

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    163. RG,

      Yeah. At some point, Cersai will realize that the Lannister army can’t fight on 4 fronts…or is it 5.. lost count.

      If only she had another weapon of mass destruction… The only one I can think of is the White Walkers…..

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    164. Aszusz,

      Arya was always described in the books as being a lot like Lyanna Stark. The closeness between Jon and Arya is just a hint at the truth of Jon’s parentage is all. Nothing odd.

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    165. Nadia,

      Im not bashing. It’s jsut an opinion. I think she is a fantastic actor and Sansa is a great character. I haven’t seen Jon do anything other than tell her they should be on the same page. Sansa is the one that keeps going back to the well with LF. “Only a fool would trust LF.” Fast forward to Jon’s coronation and she’s back to looking at LF again and the wheels are turning in her mind on whether or not she should join him.

      The instance I am speaking about is the sexist stuff she was saying about Jon. I don’t see it at all. It’s just my opinion. I don’t think she was trolling and never hinted at an iota of trolling from her. I think she doesn’t have a firm grasp on the actual story is all. She goes in and does brilliant acting on the show, but idk that she gets the big picture of how things are playing out.

      The show runners are bashing us over the heads with how much doubt is in Sansa’s head about everything. Jon keeps telling her they have to be united. Jon’s done nothing but be loyal to her. Sansa’s gone through a ton, but I think she will play the fool in the end and side with LF. Her own character is explaining her mindset about only a fool would trust LF. She may not trust him, but i have a feeling she will at the very least try and use him to get what she wants in the end.

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    166. Ser Pounce FTW:
      There’s been a lot of discussion of how Jon really made a huge error in riding out for Rickon but the truth of the matter is in both these comments. Jon’s whole purpose in riding to Winterfell was to save Rickon and no, he wasn’t going to not try to do that. This mirrors the books where Jon plans to ride south to save Arya, not Winterfell. It’s Sansa who’s aiming for Winterfell. So, while I don’t think she’s evil, she was able to make the decision to write off Rickon in order to gain the larger prize of Winterfell. Jon never would be able to to do that because that price would be too great for him to pay. It highlights the difference in the characters and their arcs. Sansa needed to harden her heart to survive while Jon finally chose to listen to his heart and not follow his duty (after being tested with this dilemma twice before with Ned/Robb and Quorin).

      What “huge error” was that?

      Jon was on offense, Ramsay on defense. Ramsay was never going to attack Jon’s forces on Jon’s terms, regardless of what Jon did with respect to Rickon. If Jon had just stood there, how would the battle have gone any differently? The two armies were facing off versus each other from the tops of two little hills or rises, and Ramsay certainly wasn’t going to come down off his and attack Jon on top of Jon’s lightly-fortified hill. Ramsay didn’t need to budge an inch. If Jon had let Rickon die without a fight, all that would have happened is that the Stark army would have been demoralized, but stuck in the same bad position as before – on a hill, facing off against a larger army waiting for them on another hill…an army that didn’t need move at all and wasn’t about to until the Stark army made a move.

      Ironically, the battle turned out to occur in about the best place Jon could have hoped – the bottom of the gully. He wasn’t going to get anything better than this. I think the idea that Jon “screwed up” or harmed his army’s pathetic chances with the rescue attempt is based on some pretty thin gruel, honestly. If he had chosen differently, the outcome was always going to be the same – a devastating loss, barring outside intervention.

      I think it is better to perceive Ramsay’s “game” as an attempt to decapitate the Stark army. It should have and darned near did work, and if it had, the battle would have been over before it really even began…but Sansa would have been right about not falling for Ramsay’s tricks.

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    167. The post-episode discussions have just confused me so much.
      I wouldn’t have been surprised to see some Jon-Sansa tension, but the fact the showrunners, actors, etc have all been talking about how bad Jon screwed up is baffling to me.
      I get how Sansa might feel entitled in the way that LF has twisted her to believe, but… she wouldn’t be a good leader. She knows nothing about the WW. She knows nothing about managing people. Her only experience is witnessing the corrupt players of KL- and that is no way means she’s on their level.
      “She saved them! Jon isn’t acknowledging that, he’s screwing up!”
      That isn’t coming across at all.
      It’s more like the ex-girlfriend in highschool who got mad because you didn’t know what she wanted all the time despite her not telling you anything.
      Jon may be naive, but Sansa’s much worse.

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    168. aabe,

      I know I didn’t even mind her watching the episodes then after that I come and read the interviews and I’m like are you trying to make people hate her even more saying things that the scenes contradict lol

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    169. Maureen,

      I know he has bended over backwards for her all season and she still doesn’t trust him.What more does she want?She is the one who has been shady and he didn’t even hold it against her #Jondidnothingwrong2k16 and while we are at it #GetSansabacktothevale2k17 haha

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    170. Azor Asshai,

      Completely agree. For me there is nothing entertaining or exciting in a story that has telegraphed a clear, pat end game. If the fans truly had it all figured out, if there was no risk to the characters, no unexpected (but not unearned) plots, we’d all be bored as fuck and there’d be nothing to talk about. Fans may not admit it, but they prefer to be shocked and outraged, surprised and moved to merely getting what they think they want.

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    171. Jenny:
      Maureen,

      I know he has bended over backwards for her all season and she still doesn’t trust him.What more does she want?She is the one who has been shady and he didn’t even hold it against her #Jondidnothingwrong2k16 and while we are at it #GetSansabacktothevale2k17 haha

      Gee, a rape victim and trauma sufferer having trust issues. Really out of left field.

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    172. Maureen:
      The post-episode discussions have just confused me so much.
      I wouldn’t have been surprised to see some Jon-Sansa tension, but the fact the showrunners, actors, etc have all been talking about how bad Jon screwed up is baffling to me.
      I get how Sansa might feel entitled in the way that LF has twisted her to believe, but… she wouldn’t be a good leader. She knows nothing about the WW. She knows nothing about managing people. Her only experience is witnessing the corrupt players of KL- and that is no way means she’s on their level.
      “She saved them! Jon isn’t acknowledging that, he’s screwing up!”
      That isn’t coming across at all.
      It’s more like the ex-girlfriend in highschool who got mad because you didn’t know what she wanted all the time despite her not telling you anything.
      Jon may be naive, but Sansa’s much worse.

      So true. I also think that Sansa’s mistake is much, much worse than Jon’s. In the heat of the moment, Jon made an emotional decision and errored by falling into Ramsay’s trap. Sansa on the other hand decided to not tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale repeatedly, while at the same time whining about not having enough men, and offering zero solutions to their problems. When Sansa says no one asked her about Ramsay, Jon says she’s right and asks her. The blood of so many fallen soldiers lies solely in Sansa’s hands.

      If the writers are going in Jon vs Sansa direction, Sansa will instantly become my most loathed character, and I’ve always liked Sansa.

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    173. Ser Pounce FTW,
      I believe we actually agree 😀
      I have no problem at all with Jon not being able to hold still while his baby brother was running for his life. While it went against his own battle plan and was strategically perilous, there is no doubt in my mind that riding towards Rickon was the only option, at that moment, both in his head and in his heart. As it would be for all of us.

      So I do not think that is the problem or that it should (or will) be a controversial topic with Sansa. What could be, conversely, is the way he “heard” her advice.
      He dismissed it as “obvious” when it was, in my opinion, everything but. “He likes to hurt people”, “Rickon is dead”, “he lays traps”, therefore “do not do anything he wants you to do” : those were informed observations based on her knowledge of Ramsay’s. Yet Jon treated it as common wisdom.

      It could all be solved very easily, really. Jon could say “You were right about Ramsay. I guess I should have listened to you but… I just couldn’t” and Sansa could answer “I know. I couldn’t have either”. Boom ! Nobody’s guilty of anything; nobody’s to blame : just two people who were right about two different (and incompatible) things.
      A simple nod to the fact that her judgment was valid, even if it was humanly impossible to abide by.

      There is a distinct possibility the North will have to face the forces of the Realm (Cersei) next season. Sansa knows Cersei; she may again have a few ideas as to what to expect from the Mad Queen… A new test of mutual trust for our Dynamic Duo 😉

      Maureen,
      I agree to say that Sansa is inexperienced. As inexperienced as Tyrion was the first time his father made him Hand of the King “in abstentia” back in season 1. On the basis of one astute observation (Tyrion pointed out that Ned’s execution had rendered impossible any peace negociation with Robb), Tywin gave him this essential job. Tyrion had no previous experience in politics or state affairs yet he was entrusted with the responsibility and rose to the occasion. And then some.
      Sometimes, you just have to do stuff to learn how to do stuff.

      Could Sansa lead the North in its fight against the White Walkers ? No, of course. I doubt anyone could successfully argue against Jon’s record on that point.
      Does it therefore means she is to be sidelined entirely ? Neither. The White Walkers are not the only current threat for the North, unfortunately. And Sansa’s participation may prove useful when dealing with the other dangers lurking around.

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    174. Anon,

      No way. Arya is done with The Twins. They are desperately trying to reduce the amount of characters, Edmure is such a minor minor character who adds almost nothing to the story, it would be a waste of time for her to free him.

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    175. Jenny,

      Davos Seaworth,

      The complaint I have about Sophie and Maisie (occasionally D&D too) in interviews is that they don’t appreciate the power of ‘open to interpretation’. One of the main reasons for the success of GoT characters is that their actions can be admired, loathed or loved depending on the viewer’s perspective. Sophie and Maisie keep trying to convince the audience of some plot point or other, and they constantly trumpet the same views to the point of saying ‘deal with it’. The general sound is, “We are saying X will happen, X is exactly what is happening, X is what you should expect, you guys gotta believe it!” all the time when the real thing going to happen is Y which many fans are expecting but they don’t want the fans to expect (drama!). In a show like GoT, which is full of dramatic twists and turns, we know that the show-runners would want the twists to be surprising. So their interviews end up being badly done bluffs.

      I’d be more serious in suspecting Sansa to betray Jon and become LF’s queen as Sophie seems to project, if only they were shut up about Sansa’s jealousy.

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    176. Again, I can totally understand the plot and character function of a Stark conflict – again, I refuse to believe that GRRM has written the Starks as the only family immune from internal conflict, no matter how much they’ve all been devastated and changed.

      Still, I would’ve liked to see Jon be more blatantly condescending to her if that’s what they want us to see, but all I saw was a genuinely decent Jon who loves his sister and is trying to figure out how to manage all of this.

      And the Sansa we got in their reunion, who was so concerned about him, who was emotional at seeing him, who apologized for how she treated him and recognizes how awful she was to him, becomes this resentful (apparently) creature.

      So if you want us to understand this conflict, have Jon be more hungry for Winterfell (rather than be dragged into it), be more dismissive of Sansa giving him REAL actionable advice, etc.

      But at the end of the day, maybe the point is that even though she apologized, Sansa STILL doesn’t see him as her brother or see him as a Stark, even though she says she does. That in her heart, she didn’t mean anything she said when they first spoke, or when they talked at Winterfell. But then don’t make her actual seem MOST SINCERE then?

      wtf show

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    177. I’m not sure if it has been mentioned, but isn’t the North and the Vale now in open revolt against the Crown? What does this mean for Dany? She has guaranteed independence for the Iron Islands, presumably Dorne will want the same. What will her kingdom be?

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    178. I will just say, right now, I consider Kit Harington a far better actor than Sophie Turner. We could actually hear what Jon Snow was thinking from the way Kit was playing him. Hesitant at first, then excited and nervous when Lyanna speaks, then nervous and elated when he is pronounced KITN. You can see him get a small smile and then turns to look at Sansa with that smile and the smile immediately disappears as he seems to think ‘Oh shit Sansa!’ and then Sansa SMILES at him and he thinks that Sansa is OK with this and then turns to face the crowd being all OK this is it!

      With Sansa, we get nothing most of the time. As one of the posters mentioned above, it’s hard to figure out what this character wants and what she is going for. Maybe that is the intention of the writers.

      But then we get these behind the scenes interviews where the actors and writers are implicitly laying out Sansa’s motivations and intentions and nothing seems to be coming across in her scenes.

      I just feel like this is the first time that Turner has been given something meaty to do and she has not been impressive. Maisie Williams and Isaac Hempstead Wright have done a far better job with their bad story arcs than Sophie has done with hers.

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    179. SerNoName,

      I agree, Ser. This is a really big shot for a young actor. It’s too bad she’s not ready for her closeup…

      She was a much better actor as young Sansa than she is now. Now, she seems too self-conscious. Maybe Sophie needs to stop messing around with fans and just focus on her craft.

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    180. I don’t understand why so many people are saying that any potential Sansa/Jon conflict is manufactured by D&D. None of us know how the story progresses beyond ADWD, but they do.

      Aside from that, we all saw that outline from GRRM. Some things may have changed, but plenty also remained the same.

      And the outline clearly had not 1 but 2 Stark conflicts. Jon vs Bran was one of them, and Sansa vs the Starks was another. So Sansa was involved in one of them, and while the details or circumstances may have changed, I don’t see why people are ruling out Sansa vs Jon. It may not escalate to a full blown betrayal or war, but there could definitely be conflict.

      Don’t forget that GRRM has said that the reason he created Sansa was because the other Starks seemed to happy-happy and he wanted some conflict within the family. He didn’t want them all to get along so great. D&D aren’t pulling this potential conflict out of thin air.

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    181. LatrineDiggerBrian,
      In reply to wheter Arya will release Edmure from dungeon:

      No way. Arya is done with The Twins. They are desperately trying to reduce the amount of characters, Edmure is such a minor minor character who adds almost nothing to the story, it would be a waste of time for her to free him.

      Maybe. It would kind of suck for him to die down there. I’d like him to actually get to see that baby boy of his…the one he sacrificed everything for, and have a semi-happy ending.

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    182. Shaz,

      If Arya were the “cold merciless killing machine” you claim, “Mercy” would have poisoned Lady Crane and Arya’s Braavosi business card would say “No One.” Since her days with Yoren, her goal has been to avenge the wrongs done to her immediate and extended family. Her skill set may have improved, but she is still Arya Stark of Winterfell and Needle is still Jon Snow’s smile.

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    183. El-Bobbie,

      I don’t doubt that a conflict could happen. I just think the conflict that is being portrayed on the show doesn’t make much sense, and it is not being conveyed properly. That is just my opinion.

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    184. Fuchsia,

      I think Jon – Daeny initial conflict is a given. Daeny wanting the North, esp as Starks instrumental in her House’s downfall; and North holding out.

      If that happens Daeny will be an enemy in my eyes, much as Ive rooted for since beginning – conflict with Starks means your dragons can all die for all I care – thats why I think its gotta happen – better than any internal Stark sibling rivalry, both our heros against each other will be pure GoT style.

      About Dorne – I doubt they want independence. They dont have Northern honour & pride, just Southern greed & spite – like Tyrells now. They both gonna need Daeny and House Targaryen’s (soon to be) new-found glory behind them to survive.
      Plus those stupid bastard women put House Martell into extinction (Idiots!!) – no kingdom for them. (Writers just tryna make females dominate so they did that BS)

      LatrineDiggerBrian,
      But Riverrun is important.
      Walder Frey’s constant bragging abt it, plus Jaime’s siege also hint at this importance.
      I think (& hope) Edmure will have some role next season – he’s the only survivor of one of the greatest Houses of Westeros.
      Then again, some of the lazily writtrn storylines this season gives me concern they might just put it under the rug

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    185. I blame all this on Lyanna mormont ..she can’t stand sansa being boss ass bitch and jealous of sansa..so she ignored sansa in the great hall and crowned Kit in the north ..and to rub it off she said she doesnt care of he is bastard..

      Sansa and LF just kill jon and burn him this time to be thorough and complete the job ..

      End of sarcasm just in case.

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    186. El-Bobbie,

      Are you saying that a stark may fight another stark or turn against one ..

      For all the talk of predictablity and boring how other story lines are ..we the starks who held north for 8000 years never had a bad one who is not honorable not sane ,not ruthless, not cruel not one who turned against his own family..

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    187. Anon:
      LatrineDiggerBrian,
      In reply to wheter Arya will release Edmure from dungeon:

      Maybe. It would kind of suck for him to die down there.I’d like him to actually get to see that baby boy of his…the one he sacrificed everything for, and have a semi-happy ending.

      Yeah I think we’ve seen the last of Edmure.

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    188. ManderlyPieCompany:
      after sophie’s, “jon is sexist remarks” i take everything that actress says about the show with a grain of salt. i could quote like 8 lines where jon is asking her for input or telling her she made the right play or giving her character credit. does she even read his lines or listen to what kit’s saying when they are doing a scene?

      I doubt it. Sophie has really left a lot to be desired with her recent baffling comments. I don’t think she understands the story at all anymore.

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    189. El-Bobbie,

      I’ve been trying to say this over and over.

      I just don’t think GRRM will have this loving happy family. The Starks are not going to be immune to family drama. All of them are so damaged and so different from where they started, why are we supposed to believe that they’ll still be united and together like they were years ago?

      I firmly believe this is not Sophie-generated drama. This IS the way the show is going, likely because it’s in the books too and it matters. They’re all talking about it.

      It is not at all difficult for me to imagine that part of the sadness and trauma of GOT and ASOIAF is that it turns a family we love against each other.

      Maybe not forever, but this idea that “Sansa’s not going to betray Jon” seems naive. She’s not going to kill him, but she certainly might go JUST far enough to make him not be KITN.

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    190. Jack Bauer 24,

      Dude, everyone is saying it. Benioff said there’s anger and jealously. Kit and Liam are talking about it.

      And when it comes to the earlier conflict, they ALL said Jon wasn’t listening to Sansa.

      People need to stop with the “Sophie doesn’t know anything” garbage.

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    191. Have you seen this video of GOT about death at Castle Black. Jon isn’t the same character after death??? I could have believed it at the beginning but after the last two episodes, the character is the same for me.

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    192. Nadia:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Dude, everyone is saying it. Benioff said there’s anger and jealously. Kit and Liam are talking about it.

      And when it comes to the earlier conflict, they ALL said Jon wasn’t listening to Sansa.

      People need to stop with the “Sophie doesn’t know anything” garbage.

      Her interpretation is bizarre though. Yeah, Benioff and Liam have said there’s possible friction, but they aren’t saying Jon was acting sexist like she did. Or that Jon should be the one who is more open with her and not the other way around. She’s spinning it like Sansa is in the right while Benioff and Liam have said no such thing.

      Sophie’s lost the plot unfortunately and her interviews continue to get more cringey and face palmy.

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    193. This is what Sophie has been saying this whole week but this is what writers and liam and kit also said..
      So let’s just leave that..

      What i want to focus and worry is how they are writing female characters when they are killing ..Emilia was blamed most for having the smile on her face while killing ..but I have been saying this is writers and Sophie is another example for this where the writers and directors make this decision..the reactions to crucification was completely different in the books and i don’t think she will smile while burning khals…same goes for sansa if or when she becomes a killer in the books ..

      So this leaves us with two options why they are doing it..
      1) this is the way the writers want to portray badass and confident women
      2) this is how they want audience keep questioning ..

      I go with both second option and first option …dany for most of the part has been made badass and confident and removed most of scenes where she is having doubts or afraid..
      For second option I can understand the show going this route with arya and cersei but I don’t think why they went with dany and sansa also especially when they do not do that in the books .

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    194. Rob,

      How does it not make sense? Sansa should be the rightful heir of Winterfell and Jon was just named KITN right in front of her. Does it not make sense that she feel a teensy bit of jealousy and anger? Especially knowing how Cat raised her, and how Jon was looked at as a threat to the trueborn Stark claims?

      And if they find out Jon isn’t even Ned’s bastard, but Lyanna’s son? That makes his claim to Winterfell even weaker than it already was.

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    195. El-Bobbie,

      Like another poster said before, she had spoken out at the first war meeting, so why did she need an invite during the last one? She apologized to Jon and dismissed LF. The look on her face did not convey jealousy to me but concern. If she wanted to be Queen, then why did she try to turn down the Lord’s chamber? I don’t see the conflict.

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    196. El-Bobbie: And if they find out Jon isn’t even Ned’s bastard, but Lyanna’s son? That makes his claim to Winterfell even weaker than it already was.

      Lyanna might weaken it, but Rhaegar strengthens it, enormously.

      El-Bobbie: I don’t understand why so many people are saying that any potential Sansa/Jon conflict is manufactured by D&D. None of us know how the story progresses beyond ADWD, but they do.

      It’s not so much that this is conflict, but rather that it just doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense as presented. Jon has been exceptionally fair to Sansa, and she has no legitimate grievances against him. The reverse is not true, but Jon immediately forgave it.

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    197. Jack Bauer 24,

      Sophie said in an interview that she didn’t watch the last episode yet, so maybe she is referring to the original script and not the final product. She also said in an interview that the writers like to lie to them about their storylines for next season.
      I believe the script said Sansa looked angry, disappointed or something like that.
      Besides, there is a scene cut of Sansa, right??? She said in the trailer “It’s all I think about, what was taken from me”????
      Sansa could be jealous but I can’t see her damaging Jon. And Bran must arrive Winterfell next season.

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    198. Rob,

      Iam watching the KITN scene now..

      And sansa has the same expression which LF has on her face whe manderly says jon snow avenged red wedding and calls him KITN..
      She smiles when jon sees her but she loses it as soon as jon turns..
      There is definitely jealousy and disappointed she is not getting credit.

      I think kit is right he is not watching her properly and making a mistake ..

      But I don’t think this going to lead to anything big ..sansa will kill LF in the end and be on the side of Jon.

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    199. It could be that the audience will think Sansa is betraying Jon when she will actually be playing Littlefinger. We will all be incensed about it until boom! it was all about betraying LF not Jon. Hopefully, LF finally gets what is coming to him and it won’t be pretty. I think the set-up is starting for us to think Sansa is going to go against Jon.

      Plus, this why didn’t Jon say anything about Sansa is the room is shouting King of the North then shot cuts away. Who is to say that in season 7, after everyone chills, Jon states something about Sansa being the Lady of Winterfell or some such.

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    200. El-Bobbie:
      I don’t understand why so many people are saying that any potential Sansa/Jon conflict is manufactured by D&D. None of us know how the story progresses beyond ADWD, but they do.

      Aside from that, we all saw that outline from GRRM. Some things may have changed, but plenty also remained the same.

      Don’t forget that GRRM has said that the reason he created Sansa was because the other Starks seemed to happy-happy and he wanted some conflict within the family. He didn’t want them all to get along so great. D&D aren’t pulling this potential conflict out of thin air.

      I just have to say to this that a friend was Balticon and was present at two private functions with the guest of honour GRRM. She said he was asked about his original outline and he said it was all bullshit and that he was annoyed that it was made public as it was personal communication. He then reiterated his “gardening” style of writing.

      So just take that original outline with a boulder of salt.

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    201. Nadia:
      I have a feeling I’m really not going to enjoy the stuff coming out of Comic Con at this rate.

      LOL! Yeah. Sophie is going to be there talking about how Jon is sexist and cheering on LF to sit on the Iron Throne.

      I do agree though that this is the direction that her character is going to move towards in the books. As someone mentioned above, Sansa was created as a character to create conflict among the Starks because not all families get along. Why should all the Starks be uniformly good and nice? Even in the books, Sansa has a streak of selfishness. She is not too bothered by the fact that SweetRobin is getting slowly poisoned so that she can marry Harry the Heir. She is learning from LF. When one plays the game, one has to get their hands dirty.

      Besides, we have Weiss stating that Sansa is not a pure, clean Stark. So we are certainly going to see some play by LF/Sansa against Jon.

      The problem comes when the writers and Sophie try to portray Sansa as being in the right in her scenes with Jon. The writing and acting does not support that. They are trying to have their cake and eat it to. They want Sansa and Jon to go up against each other, but they want Sansa to have a legitimate reason to do so. Unfortunately, the writing and acting let them down because the way it played out, almost everyone supports Jon and not Sansa.

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    202. Maggie:
      OKKK. Do people really expect that for the next 13 episodes Jon and Sansa will eat beautiful breakfast in Winterfell and say everyday how much they love each other, until beautiful Dany comes….to join them with her beautiful dragons and beautiful smart Tyrion??
      Together with beautiful Arya and beautiful Bran the fight the ugly WW, and they win. Jon and Dany take the throne and have beautiful children?

      Come on! Of course there has to be a story there, Sansa has to move on her own. She can’t play Jon’s sister who doesn’t do anything.

      Also on Jon-Sansa-Arya/Dany. All is incest. You can’t be like Lannisters are gross, but i really hope the hero of the story do incest because he is beautiful and Sansa is beautiful and Dany is beautiful.
      And before you say “They are cousins”, adoptive children are kids of their parents and siblings of their brothers/sisters. I know it’s fantasy but it is cruel to say that.

      Thank you. I want Sansa to get a story instead of being supplemental and be happy for Jon. I’m extremely excited for the North storyline going forward. LF’s chaos is welcome tbh. And, thank you for the points about the incest. Blood isn’t the only way to be a sibling.

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    203. Fuchsia: I just have to say to this that a friend was Balticon and was present at two private functions with the guest of honour GRRM. She said he was asked about his original outline and he said it was all bullshit and that he was annoyed that it was made public as it was personal communication. He then reiterated his “gardening” style of writing.

      So just take that original outline with a boulder of salt.

      As much as GRRM would like to disavow the original outline, many of those story points have turned up in his books. He has just split his original characters into several side characters. For example, the original had Jaime murdering everyone in KL and sitting on the Iron Throne. He seems to have split that Jaime into Jaime and Cersei and made Jaime more morally grey while Cersei gets to be evil. In the current story it looks like it’s Cersei who murders everyone and sits on the IT.

      Similarly in the original, Tyrion burns down WF and there is a love triangle between Jon/Arya/Tyrion. In this version, Ramsay burns down WF and Jon and Ramsay fight over fake Arya.

      The story has expanded because GRRM is a gardener. But I suspect we get many of the same elements in the original outline in a different form.

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    204. To be honest, I’ve never looked at Sansa as having the interest of anyone other than herself at heart. Sure, I’ve felt for the horrible atrocities she’s suffered, but I never thought that she was particularly admirable from way back in season 1.

      So, yeah, I can kinda see her still in that “how does this benefit me”, “where is my power and glory” mode and in the the times approaching that attitude won’t really be productive. Im not sure the Northern lords would ever have rallied around her the way they did Jon. In fact I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t.

      Arya is all about revenge for her family. Bran is about learning all he can to help stop the nights king. Rob was about revenge for Ned. Jon is about trying to live up to the ideals of the man he thinks is his father and will always think of as his father. And saving everyone’s ass from the WW’s. Rickon we never really got to know. Sansa has pretty much always been about Sansa.

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    205. Tycho Nestoris:
      “…she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.”

      Muah hahahahahaha

      Sigh… so silly. Such silly silly writing. So they’ve actually made her stupid.

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    206. El-Bobbie,

      No, Bran is the rightful heir. Yes, outsiders think he’s dead but Sansa and Jon have reasons to suspect otherwise. In the end, knowing Jon he’ll probably give it up if he survives the showdown with the walkers. He’s always wanted Winterfell but not out of ambition or hunger for power, he always wanted it because it represented acknowledgement and family. He’s learned to wear his bastardy as an armor, I hope he now gets that people are able and willing to see past that. On a personal level, he doesn’t need Winterfell, he doesn’t need the Stark name or the Targaryen name. He only needs to be himself and people will follow. That is his gift and that is his burden. When I think about Jon and how he came to be, I think of that scene between Dumbledore and Snape, when Severus plainly asks if Harry was protected only that he could eventually be sacrificed. But I think I’ve gone off topic so I’ll stop my rambling.

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    207. Fuchsia,

      He may say that it’s bullshit, but a lot of elements are still lining up. Dany took control of the Dothraki, Bran heads North of the wall, Jaime’s character was split into Jaime and Cersei and she killed all those ahead of her and took the throne. So I doubt GRRM goes from 2 Stark conflicts in the outline to zero Stark conflicts.

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    208. ACME: I am not in any way denying that Jon’s decision to try to save Rickon made all the sense in the world from an emotional standpoint. I am not so devoid of humanity.
      However, from a strategical standpoint, it was a complete disaster.
      To emphasise that, the writers even had Tormund tell Jon “don’t” when the latter got on his horse to pick up his baby brother. The only way they could have been more blatant would have been with an Admiral Ackbar meme (“It’s a trap !!!”)

      Jon did not truly listen to his sister; he only heard “don’t do what Ramsay want you to do” and dismissed it as banal. The rest of her advice, he did not pay attention to (probably because he did not want to hear he could not save his brother… Who wants to hear they cannot save the people they love ?) even though it would have helped.

      Jon knew perfectly well it was a trap, he just didn’t care. Jon was more then willing to sacrifice his own life for Rickon’s life.

      Jon did not tell his army marsh foreward after him, Davos is the one who give that order. You can see that Jon truly believes that he is about to die, and he welcomes death at that stage.
      When all of horses clashes around him, he looks genuinely surprised.

      Jon actually sacrificed himself not his whole army.

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    209. Mag:

      Have you seen this video of GOT about death at Castle Black. Jon isn’t the same character after death??? I could have believed it at the beginning but after the last two episodes, the character is the same for me.

      Kit Harington about Jon after resurrection:

      ‘A Little bit of bad has entered him, a little bit of evil. I am back, but something’s gone’

      Um, what?! I would love some evil! Jon Snow. It would make the Sansa vs Jon stuff more conflicting. Instead we got mopey Jon Snow who is a bit of a right idiot.

      I have to wait for the books to have a better exploration of Jon as a character after resurrection since the show just shrugged that aside after episode 3. I think book Jon will be more ‘evil’ than the show version.

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    210. Chad Brick,

      How does Rhaegar strengthen Jon’s claim to Winterfell? The North at this point is proclaiming themselves an independent kingdom, a Targaryen has no claim to Winterfell. Jon’s only claim to Winterfell comes from Lyanna, and we all know Ned has the claim over Lyanna.

      Danny,

      Jon and Sansa know Bran wasn’t killed by Theon. They don’t know anything beyond that, it’s literally been years since then. None of them know when Bran is going to return. All they can do is work with who is present, and right now only Jon and Sansa are present. They can’t wait around for years waiting to see if Bran may one day show up. Somebody needs to rule Winterfell, and at this point the one with the strongest claim is Sansa. The fact that she was passed over for Jon is not something she’s going to just ignore.

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    211. Sansa is shallow beyond belief. She has only been looking out for number one all her life. Nobody would be allowed to interfere with her dream of being queen with beautiful Joffrey. She had no use for Jon or Arya or loyalty to them. She willfully betrayed her father to Cersei, unintentionally getting him killed. She had no savvy either, but that minor compared to lack of loyalty. For all the brutality she lived with in KL, the only person who taught her how to think, how to see, how to act, how to plot and connive effectively is Baelish. Again and again he’s shown her the success of deviousness and focus in progressing toward one’s personal goal. Surely, she’s rethinking her loyalty to Jon and leaning toward taking her chances with LF. Moreover, she has a history of making BAD decisions–LF says Ramsay is a nice lad, ergo I shall accept the marriage. LF distrusts this freakish lady knight, ergo I shall reject her offer of protection. LF protected me from Lysa his wife by killing her, ergo I shall not reveal that murder to the Vale, no matter how dubious his subsequent behaviour.

      Oh, yes, she’ll side with Littlefinger against Jon, at least until LF is revealed for the traitorous arsehole that he is. Another thing, posters who quote her magnanimity towards Jon at WF forget the timing and context. Sansa could afford to be kind and affirming to him WHILE SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS ABOUT TO GET WINTERFELL. When he got it instead, that magnanimity vanished. In screenwriting terminology, her words we “on the nose” but her real feelings were revealed only in the subtext. As GRRM says, “words and wingd”. Many viewers and posters heard and therefore believed the words. Unfortunately, Sophie is a rather one-dimensional actress and didn’t convey the subtext well, though a number of you have picked up on it anyway.

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    212. Someone explain what you think this parallel is —

      Ned tells Arya in King’s Landing about Sansa basically that they can’t fight a war amongst themselves.

      Jon tells Sansa “we can’t fight a war amongst themselves.”

      It’s what makes people feel like Sansa hasn’t changed at all, though hopefully this time it’s a different outcome.

      But also, god I love how much they had Jon echoing Ned in the episode they confirm Ned is not his father

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    213. SerNoName: Kit Harington about Jon after resurrection:

      ‘A Little bit of bad has entered him, a little bit of evil. I am back, but something’s gone’

      Um, what?! I would love some evil! Jon Snow. It would make the Sansa vs Jon stuff more conflicting. Instead we got mopey Jon Snow who is a bit of a right idiot.

      I have to wait for the books to have a better exploration of Jon as a character after resurrection since the show just shrugged that aside after episode 3. I think book Jon will be more ‘evil’ than the show version.

      They’ve done a horrible job with Jon’s character development going back to season 2. Instead of Jon learning from Qhorin we got “Jon spoons with Ygritte in the middle of a frozen wasteland and then gets lead into an ambush”. Instead of showing how Jon grew as a leader as LC we just got action scenes. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardhome, but it seems to have come at the expense of showing how intelligent Jon had become. (not to say he’s a political genius)

      I can’t think of any character that has had as many subplots and supporting characters cut out of their storyline as Jon.

      AT LEAST include how he stays up late reading to show how he’s grown since asking Tyrion why he reads so much.

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    214. Nadia:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Dude, everyone is saying it. Benioff said there’s anger and jealously. Kit and Liam are talking about it.

      And when it comes to the earlier conflict, they ALL said Jon wasn’t listening to Sansa.

      People need to stop with the “Sophie doesn’t know anything” garbage.

      I don’t see at all how Jon didn’t listen to Sansa.
      When they were at Castle Black and received the raven from Ramsay, it was Sansa who was championing taking back Winterfell and saving Rickon.
      “A monster has taken our home and our Brother. We have to go back to Winterfell and save them both.” If I recall correctly, she made a comment to him earlier that if he wouldn’t help her take back WF, she would do it herself.
      He was listening to her. He took his cue from her to recruit the Wildlings and House Glover and House Mormont.
      So, he did what a commander would do. Sansa herself said that houses would rally behind them. They took her lead and went on a mission to garner support. They gave it their all and couldn’t get enough men. So what is Jon supposed to do at that point? Sit at Castle Black with Sansa and wait for Ramsay to send his force up there? Say never mind Ramsay, we don’t need to battle and let Rickon rot in a cell at Winterfell?
      Then at the council, when Davos was speaking about eligible houses (Karstark, Umber), she did speak up. She spoke about the Blackfish taking back Riverrun and Brienne was sent to see him.
      So, all this talk about how Jon didn’t listen to her is bullshit. She told him Ramsay would try to trap him and he did but what was Jon supposed to do? Not try to get to Rickon before an arrow? That just isn’t Jon. Just like that wouldn’t be Ned or Catelyn or Arya or a lot of them. Taking chances on a trap to save someone you love…that sounds like Jon.
      I am not dismissing Sansa’s frustration but it feels like that particular conflict was forced. Now, not telling about the Vale army probably would’ve been helpful but neither one of these characters are at 100%. They are both traumatized and running on fumes.

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    215. Truthiness: Instead of showing how Jon grew as a leader as LC we just got action scenes. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed Hardhome, but it seems to have come at the expense of showing how intelligent Jon had become. (not to say he’s a political genius)

      That’s because the show wants to put the characters into neat little boxes like Isaac said in his own interview. Where Jon is warrior, Sansa is super diplomat, Arya is assassin etc. It’s disheartening to see show only fans view Jon as an idiot who needs Sansa around to manage the politics, when in the books Jon is an average warrior at best, but a really good diplomat and knows Northern politics very well . I can’t blame them because that’s how Jon has been portrayed on the show. They had to give Sansa something to do on this season, so Jon is lacking a brain and is only good for swinging a sword.

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    216. kells,

      Jon didn’t listen when he charged Ramsay alone after Rickon was shot. He had time to turn around, go back to the original plan, and gather his forces as one unit. Instead, after Rickon is shot, Jon stares dramatically at Ramsay and then still chooses to charge him despite what Sansa told him.

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    217. Ach,

      Littlefinger will play Jon like he did Ned in season one. However, instead of doing a Ned, Jon will be ready and chop his head off.

      Either that or Littlefinger survives and ends up master of coin with Varys as master of whispers to whoever ends up on the throne. I’d kind of dig that.

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    218. El-Bobbie:
      kells,

      Jon didn’t listen when he charged Ramsay alone after Rickon was shot. He had time to turn around, go back to the original plan, and gather his forces as one unit. Instead, after Rickon is shot, Jon stares dramatically at Ramsay and then still chooses to charge him despite what Sansa told him.

      Jon didn’t charge until the first round of arrows went into the air, so we don’t know if he had time to turn around. From the sequence, it looked like the arrows landed behind him as he rode forward. So chances of him getting hit going back were just as great (if not greater) than riding towards them.
      The second Rickon was released, started running and he saw Ramsay with the bow, he knew it was a trap but it would be completely out of character for him to not at least try to save him.
      Yeah, it was a suicide ride to charge Ramsay like that but at the moment, on the battlefield, strategy takes a dump and the emotion of the moment takes over.

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    219. SerNoName: Kit Harington about Jon after resurrection:

      ‘A Little bit of bad has entered him, a little bit of evil. I am back, but something’s gone’

      Um, what?! I would love some evil! Jon Snow. It would make the Sansa vs Jon stuff more conflicting. Instead we got mopey Jon Snow who is a bit of a right idiot.

      I have to wait for the books to have a better exploration of Jon as a character after resurrection since the show just shrugged that aside after episode 3. I think book Jon will be more ‘evil’ than the show version.

      I dont think we have really seen much of Jon’s true personality this season. After his resurrection he has been struggling, he did not understand why he was brought back and he thought of himself as a failure.
      For most of the season he has been wishing thst he was still dead.

      Jon needed to be reborn again. He needed to decide that he wanted to be alive, even if he still doesn’t quite understand why he came back.
      Perhaps we will only now get an idea of his true personality after death. It will be intetesting to see if there is any changes.

      In the last episode Jon stood up and spoke relatively well. When he was recruiting soldiers earlier in the season he was struggling to string 3 sentences together. He wanted to run away and ignore the White Walker threat at first, once again we saw him focusing on the White Walkers. I hope all of this behaviour signifies more of his personality after being reborn again, during the Battle of the Bastards.

      I hope we will get to see more of him truly ruling within Winterfell next season. Jon may not to be suited to Southern politics, but he really understands the North and he understands Northern politics very well. I would like to see some good ruling from Jon next season, and it would also be very interesting if Jon displayed more ruthlessness.

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    220. A Man Grown,

      I agree, Jon did nothing wrong. He’s the guy that always tries to do what’s right. To be honest, I don’t know why so many love Sansa. What is great about her? And nobody bring up “she suffered” because that does not tell me anything about what you like about her character and personality. Many people suffered, that doesn’t make them “good.” I don’t know, maybe if I were a teenage girl I’d be able to identify with her but she’s always come off to me, aside from a few scenes, as arrogant and annoying. I liked her with Margaery, in the keep during Blackwater, sticking up for Dontos, and retrieving the cup for Tyrion. I thought she was making progress but now the way she’s been acting ever since escaping Winterfell she just appears to be lacking empathy, warmth and charm. In the interview where Sophie says about Sansa:
      “I think Jon means they need to be more open with each other and tell each other what’s going on — and it’s very frustrating for Sansa to hear him say that. She knows he means it more about her than it is him talking about himself. And he really needs to trust her.”

      Why is it frustrating to hear him request that they be open and honest with each other? After how she withheld the Vale info she’s lucky that’s all he had to say about it afterwards. She knows he means it more about her…well duh yes isn’t that obvious after all she is the one who didn’t lay all cards on table not Jon! So he really needs to trust “her?” She’s playing us guys. Good job Sophie 🙂

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    221. LF and Sansa romance? Yeah, I think so.

      “Littlefinger told her it would happen and now there’s kind of a trust built between them. He helped her out.”
      “There is definitely room for those two to build on this relationship that they have and I think their trust with each other is going to get stronger and stronger. He betrayed her once I don’t think he’ll do it again […] I think they’d be a good little duo.”

      I will loathe Sansa forever. But maybe that’s the point – maybe that’s what you’re supposed to do.

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    222. Those postulating that potential conflict lies ahead between Jon Snow and Sansa Stark have not clearly viewed the final scene that occurs in the Stark Great Hall.

      When Lyanna Mormont dresses down the Stark bannermen who refused the call of House Stark, it is clear from Sansa’s expression, that she heartily agrees with Lady Mormont’s rallying call behind Jon Snow. Sansa is emotionless at the beginning of the scene, but her expression changes, and she curls a thankful smile toward Lyanna as she hears her words. She is without doubt, pleased to hear the House of Mormont rally behind Jon Snow. The cameras show Sansa’s reaction twice.

      As the bannermen express their regrets and then pledge fealty to the ‘White Wolf’ .. it is only then that Sansa looks toward Littlefinger, and sees that he is not pleased with this outcome. Sansa immediately recognizes that it is Baelish who will seek to undermine Jon, and her expression changes from that of one pleased with the outcome of this meeting of the bannermen, to one of recognition as to where the next threat to House Stark lies. Peter Baelish.

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    223. Grayven Reyne,

      Jonienne I ship it 🙂 Jk

      You bring up good point. Brienne could very well be the one who can’t abide it and ends up warning Jon of michief brewing. I already like Brienne but if she does that I will love her for it 🙂

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    224. Boudica:

      I hope we will get to see more of him truly ruling within Winterfell next season. Jon may not to be suited to Southern politics, but he really understands the North and he understands Northern politics very well. I would like to see some good ruling from Jon next season, and it would also be very interesting if Jon displayed more ruthlessness.

      Unfortunately, with the Sansa in the North plot, we will not get to see any of that. It will be more of naive Jon making dumb mistakes or sword fighting bad guys and white walkers while Sansa displays ruthlessness and diplomacy. Ex: See season 6.

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    225. For the love of God, I surely didn’t get the jealousy/resentment vibe. It’s only through the interviews that I came to know there’s supposed to be some tension there. We can’t just pin this on Sophie though – everyone’s talking about it: Kit, Liam, the writers, and now even Aidan. My sense is that that’s how the actors were briefed about their scenes. We have to remember, the interviews of Kit/Sophie/Liam happened while they were filming that episode. So, I don’t think they talked about this thing several months ago just to troll us now. 🙂

      Anyway, since I was so confused about all these, I asked about 5 friends (who are casual viewers of the show) how they read the scene. And they ALL said they thought Sansa was not so happy about it! They noted that she wasn’t smiling while people were shouting KitN and only smiled when Jon looked a her. They interpreted the look between Sansa and LF as “You were right”/”I told you so”. I’m happy that a number of you here also didn’t sense the tension (so it’s not just me, haha!) but we better brace ourselves because that might be the theme for Team Stark next season. LF loves chaos and it’s almost certain he’s gonna create one between Jon and Sansa.

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    226. El-Bobbie: How does Rhaegar strengthen Jon’s claim to Winterfell

      Being (arguably) the rightful king of the entire realm strengthens one’s claim on anything and everything.

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    227. Nadia:
      LF and Sansa romance? Yeah, I think so.

      “Littlefinger told her it would happen and now there’s kind of a trust built between them. He helped her out.”
      “There is definitely room for those two to build on this relationship that they have and I think their trust with each other is going to get stronger and stronger. He betrayed her once I don’t think he’ll do it again […] I think they’d be a good little duo.”

      I will loathe Sansa forever. But maybe that’s the point – maybe that’s what you’re supposed to do.

      You know, I really don’t get the Jon-Sansa romance expectation because I don’t think they’re each other’s type. Jon would seem to prefer fierce, tomboyish, street-smart, no-nonsense women while Sansa would seem to fall for cunning, intelligent, on-top-of-their game kind of men. If they weren’t siblings, I don’t think they’d hang out together. They’d just bore each other. LOL. Even in their scenes together, you could tell they’re distant and so different, hence the bickering. Even that kiss on the forehead seemed awkward. They’re like those family members forced to interact with each other because they’re, well, family.

      Having said that, if LF had not killed Lysa and was not obviously a worm, he is someone Sansa could admire and maybe fall in love with.

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    228. Nadia,

      Exactly. I don’t think we’re supposed to root for Sansa. She turned against the fam because she wanted to marry the young king, she stayed on even after he had her father killed right in front of her, she agreed to marry into the family that was complicit in the deaths of her mother, brother, sister-in-law and niece/nephew, and now she’s going to align with the conniving man who set the wheels in motion for the downfall of her whole family and Stark hold on the north.

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    229. SerNoName,

      He acts like Ned, looks like him and deals with things like him. We all love Ned but he was naive, so is Jon. Out of all children it is ironic that Jon is most like Ned. His bastard or well nephew. Sansa is more like Baelish as Aidan Gillen admitted that Sansa is becoming more ruthless. She lost Lady it might symbolize that her Stark roots are not that strong as for others.

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    230. ygritte:
      A Man Grown,

      In the interview where Sophie says about Sansa:“I think Jon means they need to be more open with each other and tell each other what’s going on — and it’s very frustrating for Sansa to hear him say that. She knows he means it more about her than it is him talking about himself. And he really needs to trust her.”

      Why is it frustrating to hear him request that they be open and honest with each other? After how she withheld the Vale info she’s lucky that’s all he had to say about it afterwards. She knows he means it more about her…well duh yes isn’t that obvious after all she is the one who didn’t lay all cards on table not Jon! So he really needs to trust “her?” She’s playing us guys. Good job Sophie

      I so get what you mean. He’s responding to her “I’m sorry, I didn’t tell you about LF and the Vale…” And he responded with “We need to trust each other. We have so many enemies now. We can’t fight amongst ourselves.” That last line, by the way, is the same one Ned uttered to Arya.

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    231. These interviews are completely opposite to what happened on screen. Honestly I ve seen this before, I ve seen interviews with Dan and David where my impressions after watching a scene is completely different from theirs and I ve seen these interviews with the actors as well.
      That is why I have stopped watching a lot of these interviews, in my experience the show works better for me when I just consentrate on what is actually seen on screen during the show. I dont know why this happens, if it is some purposeful misdirection or if some facts are embellised too much, but this is the worse case of it, that I have seen. It just seems like what they are saying, and what is happening on screen are two completely different stories.
      Of course people also need to keep in mind that the scripts for season 7, wasn’t even written at the time of most of these interviews.

      I dont think there is going to be a lot of time for the North to play games. They have three big immediate enemies around them. In the North there is White Walkers and in the South mad Queen Cersei will not be happy with their presence. At the same time Dany is approaching with a massive army and three dragons.

      All of Littlefinger’s plans will be completly screwed, as soon as Dany arrives. Her army is massive, and dragons, but Dany also has Tyrion and Varys, there is no way that they will ever tust Littlefinger.
      So what is he going to do about his ambitions once Dany arrives?

      The Knights of the Vale might also become a problem for him. During the King in the North scene, the Vale Knights including Yohn Royce, took out their swords and they also proclaimed Jon as the King. I hope there is something more to this.
      If Yohn Royce sees Jon as his King then he might not have to follow Littlefinger’s orders anymore. Jon as the King would outrank Littlefinger.

      The Vale is currently in a quite difficult spot. There is no way that they would want to align themselves with mad Queen Cersei, and Sweet Robin is to unstable and completely unfit for an independent kingdom, while Jon might actually remind them of Ned, and Ned was truly loved and respected within the Vale. They could quite easy just become part of the Northern Kingdom, they really dont have many options.

      If these were more stable and peaceful times then Sansa could have been the ruler in the North. But currenty the North is only approahing a harsh winter and more wars. This is not the time for Southern political games.
      As a leader one of your first and most important duties is to take responsibility for the lives of others.
      This is where Sansa’s charater as a potencial leader falls short. Sansa has never really taken responsibility for others, she has never really displayed a lot of empathy towards other people.
      Jon has always taken resonsibility for others, right from the start he protects Sam and he creates his own little group within the Nights Watch.
      Jon also sacrifices Qhorin Halfhand in order to gain information about the Wildlings, he also sacrifices Ygritte in order to warn and help the Night Watch.
      This is what leadership is about, taking responsibility, making hard decision and making sacrifices.

      I dont think Littlefinger will have it quite so easy as in previous seasons.

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    232. Geralt of Rivia:
      SerNoName,

      He acts like Ned, looks like him and deals with things like him. We all love Ned but he was naive, so is Jon. Out of all children it is ironic that Jon is most like Ned. His bastard or well nephew. Sansa is more like Baelish as Aidan Gillen admitted that Sansa is becoming more ruthless. She lost Lady it might symbolize that he Stark roots are not that strong as for others.

      Sophie and D&D did say in their interviews mid-season that Sansa “doesn’t have the Stark way anymore.” I’m more convinced now that it is the direction that the writers are taking this character. I don’t like it but then it will also add some drama in the North. It can’t be all roses for them from hereon. They need to make that part of the story exciting while the South is being contested by the 2 queens. I don’t think the wall is coming down in the first few episodes (will likely happen towards the end of season 7) so Jon, Sansa, et al, need to have some tension in their stories otherwise they’re gonna be boring.

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    233. Booooooooooom!!!!! 😀

      ygritte:
      Nadia,

      Exactly. I don’t think we’re supposed to root for Sansa. She turned against the fam because she wanted to marry the young king, she stayed on even after he had her father killed right in front of her, she agreed to marry into the family that was complicit in the deaths of her mother, brother, sister-in-law and niece/nephew, and now she’s going to align with the conniving man who set the wheels in motion for the downfall of her whole family and Stark hold on the north.

      Yeah I have to agree. Although we can root for both, Jon as King in the North and Littlefinger as King in the Iron Throne with Sansa as her wife. That would be something.

      Arya I think is doomed. Show Dany is annoying as hell, so I hope she is too. Bran I really have no idea…I thought he was a tree. I kinda like Euron and Daario too. And Melisandre. Basically all those grey characters black and white people tend to hate 😛

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    234. May be time to start referring to Sansa as Sansa Bolton. She has more in common with the Boltons than the Starks if what Sophie says is the direction Sansa is headed. She is no Stark, just a selfish, self centered brat. Maybe Arya will kill the family traitor. 🙂

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    235. orange,

      It’s as if Sophie forgot the part where Jon suggests that she take up leadership of House Stark, and she tells Jon that he deserves it.

      In short, Jon offered her Winterfell and the Queenship of the North, and she refused.

      In this context, why would she be jealous of Jon, or think that Littlefinger is a better ally?

      Methinks Sophie doesn’t quite know what she’s on about.

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    236. Kamali: I don’t know if I blame the writers, director, or Sophie Turner’s performance, but what they are saying in these post-season interviews was not properly portrayed on screen. And the problem is they think it was

      Because it was , man. We’ve been discussing this in the comments of the other posts and I’ve been saying this exactsame thing before this interviews came out. I think people just don’t see what they don’t want to see

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    237. ygritte,

      Um sorry I have problems with her like anyone else but half of those things she had zero control over as an abused young girl who was basically held hostage by the Crown – where would this young girl have run and how after the king beheaded her father and he publicly confessed to being a traitor?

      That being said, people can feel as they will about Sansa NOW but having to stay in KL and marrying Tyrion was completely out of her control

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    238. Pau,

      For the life of me, I cannot understand the hatred some people have for show Dany. She’s smart, shes respectful and open to the advice of people that she deems smarter than she is (eg. Tyrion), she’s a destroyer of slave empires, and she and Jon are the only remaining rulers with empathy and an admirable moral compass. I can understand not loving Emilia’s acting all the time, but what exactly is so objectionable about the character?

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    239. El-Bobbie:
      kells,

      Jon didn’t listen when he charged Ramsay alone after Rickon was shot. He had time to turn around, go back to the original plan, and gather his forces as one unit. Instead, after Rickon is shot, Jon stares dramatically at Ramsay and then still chooses to charge him despite what Sansa told him.

      I’m amused with people still saying “Jon didn’t listen to Sansa”. As we often say, talking is easy, it’s the doing that is the real sh*t. It’s so, so, so much easier to dispense advise when you’re in a safe, comfortable place than to be right there in the battlefield. Besides, Sansa didn’t give Jon any specific strategy.

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    240. ArgonathofBraavos,

      To play devil’s advocate, where did he offer her QITN? He said she’s the Lady of Winterfell. And then the North proclaims him KITN and everyone ignores that she’s sitting there. I mean Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding? In truth, he didn’t, not REALLY.

      I think there’s enough in the show to tell you she’s not happy with how things are. For me, it seems most clear in her talk with LF, but you can see him really drawing her into his words and her almost being entranced before she shakes herself out of it when he tries to kiss her.

      Sam,

      To be honest, I was actually getting the vibe in their first encounters – in part because we’d never seen them on screen together as siblings and all of a sudden you get these two attractive people like so warm and happy to see each other and it felt like the first time Jon had laughed in a century. (damn this show for ruining it)

      HOWEVER, I think there’s a 0.0% chance of the show doing it. Still, your description of who he likes certainly rings true for his type in the books (RIP forever Val you deserve to be on this show) but sounds way way different than Dany, and the show is projecting very very hard they’ll be together.

      /shrugs I have zero clue what D&D will do anymore some things just defy logic

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    241. ArgonathofBraavos,

      I think it’s the sense that people have that it’s all so easy for Dany because whatever happens she’s like “dracarys.” After all, who can resist dragons? And that basically everyone’s bent a knee to her and she’s just gathering armies and advisors left and right without the STRUGGLE.

      I don’t know, I love Dany in the books, who really struggles, who doesn’t just rely on her 25 titles and dragons, who feels vulnerable and worried about whether she is ready for the burdens of leadership, even though she feels like the throne is as much her DUTY as it is her right.

      Show Dany just seems….meh to me. I’m tired of her massive set pieces where thousands of people fall over themselves for her in lieu of real character growth.

      I don’t know, does this Dany seem all that different than she was 2 seasons ago to you? To me she doesn’t, and it might be Emilia’s acting, or it might be the plot.

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    242. Nadia,

      Yes, I was thinking of Val, too! In fact, when I was reading the books, I imagined Jon, after the Great War, could end up joining the free folk instead of sitting on the IT (by his choice). 🙂

      I’m not sure if there will be enough episodes to establish a romance between Jon and Dany. Methinks they’ll meet at the start of season 8 but by that time, they’ll be too busy fighting the walkers that they won’t have time to even think of romance.

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    243. Geralt of Rivia: He acts like Ned, looks like him and deals with things like him. We all love Ned but he was naive, so is Jon.

      He is and he isn’t at the same time, that goes for being naive and it goes for being like Ned.

      I think both statements are over simplifying their characters somewhat. Both character actually knew that they were making some very unpopular decisions before their deaths. They really knew that they could be killed at any moment. It is not like they never understood that their decisions was unpopular or what the impact might be. They understood it all perfectly, too well.
      But both of their characters values duty. They will try to do their duty even if it kills them. If they believe something is the right thing to do, then they will commit to that cause and they will take responsibility or suffer the consequences of their actions.
      Therefore, I wouldn’t exactly think of them as naive, it is more of a stubborness, I think Robb was the one who might have been more naive.

      Ned and Jon’s characters are very simular but I believe Jon’s experiences has made him more flexible then Ned. Jon often makes decisions that Ned would not have done. It is a bit of a struggle for Jon at times he really tries to act like Ned, but he doesn’t always succeed. I cant think that Ned would have condoned Jon leaving the Night Watch for example.

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    244. If any of this potential Stark drama plays out like this, I hope that this and his eventual knowledge of R+L=J will lead him to separate himself from the Starks. It seems it might be for the best. That knowledge will put everything into perspective for him…he doesn’t feel like one of them because he’s not. He was never meant to fit because they are not his family. I think all this drama may be needed for him to let go of this dream and move on. He’s wasted enough time trying to prove himself to people. Enough is enough. That poor boy deserves better. He can leave them to fight over whatever they wish and he can go find some peace.

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    245. Nadia,

      This is the reason why I’d hope for Dany to face a great setback first before she defeats Cersei and conquers the KL. Otherwise, it will be the same boring sequence. As it stands now, with that armada of hers, Dany could finish off Cersei and her reign in less than 5 minutes! I’m hopeful the writers will come up with something exciting for the War in the South.

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    246. Nadia,

      Well you may very well ask this question about any character .
      Does jon look any different from 2 season ago..is tyrion jamie arya.

      But otter than that I agree with what you are saying ..the show only focused on her big set pieces not focused her internal struggles or compassion more ..

      And I pray to god they give her some good lines at least on the upcoming season..

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    247. A Man Grown:
      Kamali,

      That’s exactly what I was trying to say. D&D and now Turner are talking about stuff that simply wasn’t there. They keep acting like Jon did something wrong when he really didn’t.

      If it wasn’t there how come many people picked it up? Maybe it was there and you guys refused to see it 😉

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    248. ArgonathofBraavos:
      Pau,

      For the life of me, I cannot understand the hatred some people have for show Dany. She’s smart, shes respectful and open to the advice of people that she deems smarter than she is (eg. Tyrion), she’s a destroyer of slave empires, and she and Jon are the only remaining rulers with empathy and an admirable moral compass. I can understand not loving Emilia’s acting all the time, but what exactly is so objectionable about the character?

      Is not hate, man. I just find here annoying. Some absurd plot points don’t help either. I liked her until season 4 I’d say. All her stuff this season just didn’t sit right with me.

      I’ll ask you the reverse…why all the hate for Daario¿?

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    249. While I agree that tension between Jon/Sansa/LF will most likely be a focus next season (that means I agree with Nadia to some extent), I think we are overreacting a bit. It’s not like the first time the interviews are not 100% correct and from what we’ve seen from the show, Sansa didn’t go full power-hungry mode in season 6. Hence “You should take it. You will always be a Stark to me”

      Last year, I remember the producers saying: “Sansa is a character we care about almost more than any other, and the Stark sisters have from the very beginning been two characters who have fascinated us the most” and I’m sure there was a reason they didn’t gave Sophie a year off in season 5.

      After all, we only have to wait 10 months for the next season.

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    250. ArgonathofBraavos,

      I’m not sure if it is Danenerys or Emilia Clarke’s acting but I found her really annoying in all scenes when she is supposed to be “badass”, but actually has a pretty villainous look. When Sansa has that kind of look (Ramsay’s death, LF arriving with his army), everyone is saying “She is a villain now. She will hurt Jon.” but when Daenerys has it, they are all “She is so perfect. I love her…”

      And like Nadia said, she achieves great things without any struggle just because she has three dragons. Actually, I really liked her in the scene where she says goodbye to Jorah and when she names Tyrion as her Hand.

      I like when the characters are brought to their emotional limits. When was the last time it happened to Daenerys? When Drogo died? I was actually glad that Barristan died in season 5, so Daenerys could freaking realize that she is not untouchable.

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    251. Vyse,

      This is what I keep going back to, when Ned jokes to Arya back in S1 saying not to poke her sister with needle. Now Arya is a true assassin on her way back home where Sansa is currently being set up as a possible enemy of Arya’s beloved brother Jon. Maybe. See, I have trouble believing that they’re going to have Sansa go full out traitor. For one thing, there is not enough time to develop that, and the only reason for Arya to literally kill her sister is if she’s so beyond redemption as in like being complicit in premeditation of murder.

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    252. Nadia,

      She had the opportunity to leave. The Hound offered it and so did LF (the first time before she was on the run after Joffrey death orchestrated.) When Tyrion saved her from vicious beating by Trant and she still walks away saying she serves Joffrey, don’t remember exact words but at any rate, she was obviously determined to stay on at KL at that point.

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    253. Chad Brick,

      Jon was most likely born out of wedlock. Polygamy was not practiced for hundred years. So he’s most likely bastard and even if by some miracle Rhaegar married Lyanna. He’s not rightful King. Just as Daeny is not rightful Queen. Right now is about who will take it by conquest. Jon neither does have an army to do it or willingness.

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    254. Geralt of Rivia:
      SerNoName,

      He acts like Ned, looks like him and deals with things like him. We all love Ned but he was naive, so is Jon.

      This is a false misconception due to the way show Jon is portrayed as being naive and Ned like. I agree that show Jon is incredibly naive,.

      Meanwhile, the books have shown that Jon is so much more pragmatic than Ned. Jon separated a mother from her baby. Do you ever see Ned doing that? Jon asked Stannis to spare Mance’ life and use his knowledge instead, despite Mance being a NW deserter. Ned would have lopped his head off. Jon manned the NW castles with spearwives.

      Even his assassination was not because of his naivety. He knew that those men were out for his blood (He often thinks of Mel’s warnings when he sees them) and he tries to convince them of the necessity of letting the Wildlings through. He had no choice but to continue to work with them.

      Book Jon is rather bright. He reads books, he learns, he experiments, he negotiates a deal with the Iron Bank despite having a deficit.

      Show! Jon’s way of convincing people includes saying things like ‘I put an arrow through his heart’ and standing around while Tormund, Davos and Sansa do the talking.

      I can understand why they do this though. They have to give the actors for Davos, Tormund and Sansa something to do. So they delegate fighting for Jon and talking for the others. It’s piss poor writing but needs must for a TV show.

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    255. ygritte,

      I think Arya killing Sansa would be a bit extreme and one-sided. Sansa’s arc was all about survival while being manipulated by others. If LF manages to completely turn her against the Starks, following by Arya killing her, what would be the point of her character? Who will then defeat LF?

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    256. Nadia:
      ManderlyPieCompany,

      Why does everyone keep saying SOPHIE is trolling and doesn’t get it?

      Literally every actor and writer has said the same thing.

      Liam said it
      Kit said it
      Benioff said it

      Rather than say “Sophie is a troll,” how about perhaps everyone try to wrap their heads around the fact that this is ACTUALLY A PLOT FOR NEXT SEASON

      And before we bash D&D why is everyone acting like this is out of the realm of possibility in the books to get Sansa – when she gets to LF – vs Jon, with LF advancing her claim?

      This 100%

      ACME: They cannot be unaware of Jon’s popularity and such a narrative decision would basically turn Sansa into a villain for many viewers, which I do not think is the writers’ intention.

      But is not up to the writers, is it? I guess it’s up to Martin, who doesn’t care about a charcaters popularity. Or you think D&D would do their own thing?

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    257. Lord Parramandas:
      ArgonathofBraavos,

      I’m not sure if it is Danenerys or Emilia Clarke’s acting but I found her really annoying in all scenes when she is supposed to be “badass”, but actually has a pretty villainous look. When Sansa has that kind of look (Ramsay’s death, LF arriving with his army), everyone is saying “She is a villain now. She will hurt Jon.” but when Daenerys has it, they are all “She is so perfect. I love her…”

      I must have missed this happening can you point me to those places where that said ..

      People keep bringing up Emilia’s acting ..
      Just in this same article Sophie tells Miguel wanted her to smile..and same goes for Emilia too the writers and directors wants it..
      I brought this topic above but nobody seemed to care ..

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    258. Lyric,

      It would be nice if that knowledge were to give him a new lease on life, of course it will be so bittersweet because after all those years the feeling of not belonging, and then finally going on to become not only the lord of Winterfell but a king in the North, he’s achieved his dream. He’s finally looked upon as a true blue Stark. Dad would be proud. Literally achieving what as a bastard he never dreamed of but now it will be ripped away from him and once again, that feeling of not belonging will set in, after all, who is his family now? He’s never known them, and never will, except for one aunt. Granted, that’s one hell of an auntie aint it? Lol.

      Unless Tyrion is a secret Targ. Please let it be so, that would be so nice for Jon. They seemed to really like each other.

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    259. SerNoName: This is a false misconception due to the way show Jon is portrayed as being naive and Ned like. I agree that show Jon is incredibly naive,.

      Meanwhile, the books have shown that Jon is so much more pragmatic than Ned. Jon separated a mother from her baby. Do you ever see Ned doing that?Jon asked Stannis to spare Mance’ life and use his knowledge instead, despite Mance being a NW deserter. Ned would have lopped his head off. Jon manned the NW castles with spearwives.

      Even his assassination was not because of his naivety. He knew that those men were out for his blood (He often thinks of Mel’s warnings when he sees them) and he tries to convince them of the necessity of letting the Wildlings through. He had no choice but to continue to work with them.

      Book Jon is rather bright. He reads books, he learns, he experiments, he negotiates a deal with the Iron Bank despite having a deficit.

      Show! Jon’s way of convincing people includes saying things like ‘I put an arrow through his heart’ and standing around while Tormund, Davos and Sansa do the talking.

      I can understand why they do this though. They have to give the actors for Davos, Tormund and Sansa something to do. So they delegate fighting for Jon and talking for the others. It’s piss poor writing but needs must for a TV show.

      This! I love Book!Jon. He’s my favorite character from the start. I love how he’s learning to be a true leader who makes difficult decisions, despite this internal pull to stay true to being “Ned’s son”. I also love Show!Jon but I think it’s mostly because of Kit Harington. 🙂

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    260. El-Bobbie:
      kells,

      Jon didn’t listen when he charged Ramsay alone after Rickon was shot. He had time to turn around, go back to the original plan, and gather his forces as one unit. Instead, after Rickon is shot, Jon stares dramatically at Ramsay and then still chooses to charge him despite what Sansa told him.

      No, he did not have time to turn around and go back. If he had tried, he would have been turned into a porcupine by the people who were firing arrows all around him. Jon realized it too, you can see that by the look on his face when he realized Ramsay had trapped him in no man’s land.

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    261. Pau,

      D&D said that they are moving towards the same ending and even called Sansa “the character they care about the most”, that’s why they gave her a bigger storyline, “her own storyline” in seasons 5 and 6. Considering that the show has entered the end game, I think we can safely assume that Sansa’s storyline will end in the same manner as the one of her book counterpart. She and LF will also move to the North in the books (the last Sansa chapter in AFFC) and Jon/Sansa/LF conflict will probably happen as well. I’m sure that it will end with LF’s downfall possibly with some involvement of Sansa. Whether he takes her down with him or she survives it, that’s the matter of speculation but I’m leaning towards the survival because if Jon will go North to fight the Night King, someone will have to rule WF in his place.

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    262. dragonbringer,

      If you havent noticed: “I’m not sure if it is Daenerys or Emilia Clarke” – I’m well aware of that. I even defended her acting several times, saying that maybe Daenerys is “supposed” to look annoying and over-the-top. And with “everyone” I meant the less hardcore watchers and more casual watchers (those who comment on Youtube and FB).

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    263. Sam,

      We need something in the North before big battle against white walkers. Sansa is looking and behaving like non Stark which is good in some situations but not so much in others. Curious to see Jon vs Sansa feud.

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    264. SerNoName,

      I love show Jon too, mainly because he is all heart and Kit Harington 🙂 , but I agree with what you say, show Jon has unfortunately been dumbed down, apparently he is still naive inspite of all his experiences. I want to see him learn, to show that he can handle being a king, but I am not sure the show will make it happen.

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    265. Sam: This! I love Book!Jon. He’s my favorite character from the start. I love how he’s learning to be a true leader who makes difficult decisions, despite this internal pull to stay true to being “Ned’s son”. I also love Show!Jon but I think it’s mostly because of Kit Harington.

      I love the show but obviously the book characters are much more fleshed out. We get the dumbed down version in the show.

      Lord Parramandas:
      Pau,

      D&D said that they are moving towards the same ending and even called Sansa “the character they care about the most”, that’s why they gave her a bigger storyline, “her own storyline” in seasons 5 and 6. Considering that the show has entered the end game, I think we can safely assume that Sansa’s storyline will end in the same manner as the one of her book counterpart. She and LF will also move to the North in the books (the last Sansa chapter in AFFC) and Jon/Sansa/LF conflict will probably happen as well. I’m sure that it will end with LF’s downfall possibly with some involvement of Sansa. Whether he takes her down with him or she survives it, that’s the matter of speculation but I’m leaning towards the survival because if Jon will go North to fight the Night King, someone will have to rule WF in his place.

      Yes, I would assume that too (that they won’t chnage her storyline in that aspect). I’m not so sure that that would be the outcome, though. Too much of a happy ending. And too predictable.

      I rather be surprised 😉

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    266. Lyric:

      Not his family? Every one of those Starks loved him. Ned fiercely protected and raised him, gave him a home, taught him how to fight, made him the man he is. Robb admired and enjoyed his company, Bran respected him, Arya loved him. He should turn his back on them for whom? A ‘father’ in a grave he never knew?

      Why is it that people downplay the mother’s side? Jon may not be Ned’s but he is still the son of Lyanna Stark.

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    267. Geralt of Rivia,

      Apart from Jon/Sansa feud, I think there will be also some LF/Sansa conflict. Sansa is currently on neither side (or partialy on both sides) and it is LF who is currently the main antagoinst in the North. That look to Sansa pretty much indicated it and her look to him could mean both “Maybe you were right?” and “I sense some trouble”.

      And Sansa not being “clean Stark” is not necessarily a bad thing. This may as well mean that she is willing to get her hands dirty. Ned was killed because of honor, Robb was killed because of honor, Jon was nearly killed because of honor… maybe Sansa not being a clean Stark is the key to defeat LF.

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    268. SerNoName,

      I was talking about showJon. In the books he did a lot of things as you mentioned them and showed that he might be bright. He switched babies, managed to get loan from Iron Bank, marriage alliance. He did stuff King should do but in the how he’s rather action hero. I mean it’s not bad, he has nice scenes outside of fighting but he’s rather too naive. He can be naive as he’s young but not like being too much naive. In the books he didn’t saw bertrayl and he should. We can say he’s much younger and in the show they aged them up. So he should be more smarter.

      It will be interesting to see how he manages in next season with Northern politics, preparing for white walkers and for people to belive him. Also LF and Sansa.

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    269. Lord Parramandas,

      I’m not sure what the point of it would be. Are they so mean as to have a character who started out as a young girl whose arc has been about getting abused and manipulated but escapes to reclaim her home only to turn evil and be killed off by another character we’re fond of, that being no less her own sister? Probably not. But there is some slight, sort of possible foreshadowing. I don’t want it to happen, that would make it really hard to rewatch all the seasons knowing this main character is going that route only to be killed off. But from what I’ve read Sansa was never in the big “5” that George outlined making it to the end. Plus hasn’t this show always had the reputation of doing this kind of thing? I just can’t see what’s Arya’s role in the end game. Just to get through her list and then show up at home to say hi guys I’m back and raid the fridge? I read an interview where it was stated Arya has turned to the dark side now as evidenced by her “Frey pies” and we should be worried for her.

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    270. Sam: Should we send a petition now to D&D? #pleasedontdumbdownjonsnow2016

      They have so many characters and so little time…I think they do the best they can giving the circumstances 😉

      Martin has lived and breathed the characters for decades, they can’t match that. And it’s ok. We always have the books. And now we’ll have an ending, so we can speculate how will Martin reach the same ending, which is always fun!

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    271. Lord Parramandas,

      Iam not talking about your statement about where you find her annoying …thats your opinion and you can have it and I can see how show can make one feel like that..

      But when you say people act cool if dany does something and people blame sansa for doing something.. Is what am against ..

      And you missed all those comments about dany on same YouTube and imdb and Facebook’s.

      Why go that long can we take this place here at WoTW how many talked about sansa turning to villain when compared to the talked about dany..
      Game of owns had run two threads on this topic of dany becoming villain and how many threads did sansa have for that..

      Even now many people are saying that writers are going for the sake of drama not believing that sansa may actually turn against jon..

      Its not something that happens with dany and Emilia alone ..take any female character and them killing we have the same for arya cersei ,sandsnakes ..all seem to enjoy the killing ..

      There is something wrong with how they write the female characters being badass and confident..
      And if they not but want audience to question the act ..then they are doing that something that’s not happening in the books especially with dany and sansa..

      This is something we must speak about …dany has been getting this treatment from season 2 and sansa from this season..
      I have been speaking about this since episode 9 aired..
      But no one seemed to care because as long as its a story line they don’t care or find it boring it doesn’t matter..

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    272. Pigeon:
      *flips table*

      Actually, if LF wins this whole game, he’ll certainly have worked for it.

      I’m actually hoping these two end up together. Not on the iron thrones but maybe as lord and lady of winterfell and the vale? Unlikely to happen but I would love an outcome like this for sure.

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    273. Josla: I’m actually hoping these two end up together. Not on the iron thrones but maybe as lord and lady of winterfell and the vale? Unlikely to happen but I would love an outcome like this for sure.

      Yesssss me to

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    274. Josla: I’m actually hoping these two end up together. Not on the iron thrones but maybe as lord and lady of winterfell and the vale? Unlikely to happen but I would love an outcome like this for sure.

      Ugh. Sorry to disagree but I’d hate it if LF would end up lording it over Winterfell when he’s the very person who orchestrated the downfall of Ned and his family. There’s even a theory that he’s the one who created the rumor that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna (he was also at RL when that happened). His comeuppance is long overdue and it should come soon.

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    275. Sam: Ugh. Sorry to disagree but I’d hate it if LF would end up lording it over Winterfell when he’s the very person who orchestrated the downfall of Ned and his family. There’s even a theory that he’s the one who created the rumor that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna (he was also at RL when that happened). His comeuppance is long overdue and it should come soon.

      Not Winterfell, I see Jon in Winterfell and LF on the Iron Throne married with Sansa, after Cersei’s demise. I’d like that. And then let it battle with Dany. Hopefully killing them both and leaving Tyrion on the Throne 😛

      Regarding Ned he should’ve backed up Renly. It is known.

      PS: I know it won’t happen like that, but a guy can dream 😛

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    276. Josla,

      Littlefinger as Lord of Winterfell after he bertrayed Ned? Weird. If you like them well it’s your opinion but one of them will go out. Suspect it’s LF as we’re approaching NK and war of dawn.

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    277. Lord Parramandas,

      Yes, Sansa is supposed to be the writers’ favorite character. And what they had intended in this situation was for Sansa to be in the right and Jon to be in the wrong. Jon does not listen to Sansa, so he has to almost lose the battle, only to be saved by Sansa. And then she gets no credit for this. She was supposed to be the victim and they were ready to throw Jon’s character under the bus for this. But the execution did not bring this out. I only hope they don’t continue to dumb down Jon’s character just to show that Sansa is a player.

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    278. Chris2010:
      “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.”

      She said it herself.

      Only a fool… would trust the showrunners. Last season they tried to play it like Jon would stay dead. Now they’re trying to convince us that Littlefinger’s schemes actually stick. It would make no sense whatsoever if Sansa and Jon really had a massive fall out. Winter is here, the Whites are coming, the Seven Kingdoms are at war, Dany will land soon (although they probably don’t know that yet) – a rift between them would mean certain failure. Even “you know nothing Jon Snow” isn’t that stupid.

      He isn’t, is he??

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    279. My problem with the storyline is not that it exist but the way they present it and want us to feel about it.First of all they did a piss poor job of giving Sansa any reason to be upset at Jon when ever since they met he has done everything to accomodate her.It would be one thing if we are supposed to be annoyed at Sansa and feel like she is a bitch but they want us to think that she is in the right and has legitimate reasons and this is something other than LF manipulating her like no I’m sorry but no.

      Also the more they hype it out the less I believe it.

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    280. Josla,

      Ugh!! Please no. Sansa having listened to her aunt shagging LF should put her right off going there lol.

      If they had Sansa marry LF it would just make it so unbelievable given her character’s storyline up to now. Forced twice into loveless marriages, one of which was to a monster? Why on earth would she marry another man she didn’t love? Sansa still wants the fairytale even though she’s now learned how to play the game.

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    281. Jenny,

      I’m with you there. I’m sure LF will cause issues between Jon and Sansa but he’s dodged the consequences of his actions for six seasons, it’s bound to catch up with him in the end. Unfortunately Sansa may end up paying a high price.

      I don’t follow the idea that Sansa should mistrust Jon who hasn’t done a single thing to make her mistrust him, but she might trust LF who has betrayed her already. Seems daft to me. LF will just exploit her as he does everyone.

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    282. ghost of winterfell:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Yes, Sansa is supposed to be the writers’ favorite character. And what they had intended in this situation wasfor Sansa to be in the right and Jon to be in the wrong. Jon does not listen to Sansa, so he has to almost lose the battle, only to be saved by Sansa. And then she gets no credit for this. She was supposed to be the victim and they were ready to throw Jon’s character under the bus for this. But the execution did not bring this out. I only hope they don’t continue to dumb down Jon’s character just to show that Sansa is a player.

      If what they’ve written for the character so far is due to their “favoritism”, they’ve done a not-so-decent job, IMO. I’ll always love D&D for bringing us this most wonderful show but their seeming insistence to make Sansa the “bad-ass female character ever” (yey, girl power!!!) doesn’t work that well, it seems. They wanted to show her asserting herself and she did that during the council meeting in episode 5 but in episode 9 she whined about not being asked for her opinion when she was right there the whole time. They wanted her to look strong when she confronted LF about what he did to her (“selling her to the Boltons”) and even declared him as her “enemy” but then 5 episodes later, she’s asking him, “What do you want?” (She should have just told him – “You know what, we’re even now. Go get the hell out of here.”) They wanted her to be the one to “save” Jon and his army during the BotB with the Vale army but then making her withhold that information actually made a lot of the viewers question her and her motivations.

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    283. Well, that escalated quickly ! 😀

      How did we get from “Sansa feels a bit of jealousy”, “Jon does not listen as well as he could”, “Sansa feels sidelined”, etc to “if Sansa stabs Jon in the back, I hope she dies”, “Sansa is a traitor to her kind”, “Jon deserves better”, etc ?

      I have to confess this level of partisanship is extremely intriguing to me.
      While I understand Jon is a sympathy magnet (he is the ultimate lovely underdog and who does not love an underdog ?), it does not automatically imply that anyone who dares have interests, thoughts or feelings that clash with his is a monster or inherently wrong.
      Jon is a human being, a flawed human being (like anybody else). To imply that at times he makes mistakes, fails, misreads situations (like anybody else) is not an insult, in my opinion. He is not some sort of medieval, puppy-eyed, little girl fantasy-material Prince Charming with a killer smile and even killer-er abs who can do not wrong. If he were, he would be dull as mud.

      We may be dealing with a bit of residual trauma : the last time some people disagreed with Jon, they ended up stabbing him not just in the back but also in the front. In a non-figurative way. So perhaps we are still in the aftermath of that, emotionally speaking.
      But all conflicts of interests do not end that way !
      Look at Davos and Stannis (before he murdered his daughter, of course) : these two were very often in conflict, especially in relation to the Red Woman. Yet, no backstabbing !

      The writers and the actors are merely introducing the idea that there may be conflict between the siblings. That their respective interests, needs, expectations, abilities and styles of communication may clash at some point.
      Conflict is not war; conflict is not a battle between two enemies. Conflict does not even rely on right and wrong.
      As a matter of fact, the best kind of conflict is the kind where both sides are right.

      Can’t both Jon and Sansa be right ?
      Can’t Jon be right to feel so overwhelmed by all the things that were thrust upon him (a victimised sister, a murdered brother, a castle, a bunch of recently loyal lords’ nationalistic pride, an army of ice zombies ready to take over the world, his still recent death) that he can be too quick to dismiss the contributions of certain people around him, especially his sister ?
      Can’t Sansa be right to feel frustrated at the idea of being sidelined and unappreciated when that is all she has experienced for the last five years and it has only brought her misery, pain, trauma, humiliation, physical and psychological violence and rape ?

      Nadia,
      I can see what you mean. It is a very subdued kind of conflict, for the moment.
      But I have to say, I like it. I feel that, if Jon had been more openly dismissive of Sansa’s thoughts on Ramsay, he would have looked (to me) uncharasterically douche-y. And that would have been strange.
      As it were, it was the right blend of incredulity and misunderstanding. I could see why he could/would not take in what his sister was telling him and why Sansa was getting annoyed by it.

      Again, I believe conflict between two people who are right is the best kind of conflict.

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    284. SerNoName,

      Agreed and great post! Jon’s story in ADwD was all about how much he is Ned’s son but has overcome many of the weaknesses Ned had. He was a very good LC and showed his intelligence, responsibility and shrewdness. That said, I don’t think we can say he is blameless in the assassination attempt. He did make the right decisions given the situation but he failed in communicating this to all his men. There will always be dissent when faced with change but to be moved to murder means there were some that just didn’t understand anything Jon was facing. He was naive to think everyone “got it” and was behind him.

      None of this comes through in the show, sadly, and Jon does indeed seem to be dumbed down.

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    285. For me and my simple minded interpretation of the Jon /Sansa dynamic. Yes, Sansa misled Jon. Yes, Jon abandoned the battle plan. But Jon proved to Sansa that his overriding motivation, above everything else, is to protect his FAMILY. I think no matter what ambitions Sansa may have or has had, her arc has come full circle and she will never betray Jon, whether he is her 1/2 brother or her cousin. To Sansa, Jon has grown to be the man Ned Stark wanted and taught him to be. I think Sansa thinks of her father when she sees Jon.

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    286. Sam,

      The problem was, to make Sansa’s cause truly sympathetic, they would have had to make Jon appear condescending towards her, I am glad they did not do that as that would have been a disservice to Jon’s character. And there never was a good explanation for why Sansa hid info from Jon. These two things hurt Sansa’s portrayal this season, imo.
      I hope whatever conflict happens next season, the writers manage to bring that out without doing disservice to either character, but it will be tough to pull off.

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    287. Does anyone think Randyl Tarly will take control of the Reach and throw his support towards Cersei? Obviously before knowing that Dany is coming. Faulkner had to be brought in for something bigger than to chastise Samwell for one scene.

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    288. ACME,
      He is not some sort of medieval, puppy-eyed, little girl fantasy-material Prince Charming with a killer smile and even killer-er abs who can do not wrong. If he were, he would be dull as mud.

      Uh yeah, he kinda is lol. Dull? Only if a girl prefers the intellectual or bad boy type or doesn’t hold any residual little girl fantasies in her big girl subconscious.

      I agree with the residual trauma comment. Yep, sums it up well.

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    289. ACME,

      The thing that bugs me about Sansa is she has contributed nothing to her cause. All she has done is go the other Houses and say they owe her their allegiance since she is a Stark. At least Jon is arguing the big picture argument, that none of them will survive if they don’t stop the White Walkers. He has also proven himself a capable leader with the Battle of the Wall.

      No one stopped her from speaking up at the war council, she was speaking for herself just fine at the previous one at Castle Black, do the guys need to put her up on a pedestal or something? When she points out that she knows Ramsay best, Jon admits that she is right, and asks for her advice. All Sansa says is don’t so what he wants you to do. If she wanted to be more helpful, she should have been more specific, especially since she has several examples she can cite showing how sadistic Ramsay was. But she doesn’t. She then goes on to whine and complain about not having enough men, but offers zero solutions to the problem, all while holding back information about the Vale army. So many soldier deaths are on her hands because of this. The only thing she did was ask Littlefinger for help after he offered it to her. She didn’t get that help from some cunning political move she made herself, it was given to her on a silver platter. The only standing she has is that she is a true born, even though she was married twice.

      Keep in mind, I do not blame Sansa at all for her season 1 mistakes. She was a kid who grew up in the Winterfell bubble that was perfect, she had no idea what the real world was like at that time. Now however, she should know better. It irks me that she feels she is being sidelined, after doing nothing. Do something to contribute before whining about it.

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    290. ygritte,
      Ha ha ha ! I can concur about him being a great guy.
      However, I stand by my (entirely subjective) assessment that this “can do no wrong” fantasy schtick is the least interesting aspect of him. I, and again it is my decidely subjective take on it, do not enjoy looking at him like Season 1 Sansa used to look at Joffrey. ^^

      What makes him interesting, to me, is all the rest. All the flaws that make him undoubtedly human. Like his inability to see that he has been pretty lucky, as far as Westerosi luck goes : back in Season 1, Tyrion helps him curb his “arrogance” (“they hate me because I am better than them”) by pointing out that most of his new Wall-brothers had had much tougher lives than he ever thought possible; in this season finale, there was a reminder of that in his scene with Melisandre when he reminisced about being marginalised during family feasts and the Red Woman noted that at least he had a family… And feasts. More than the overwhelming majority of Westerosis can boast.
      And the list of mishaps, mistakes and character flaws continues…
      It does not prevent him from being a genuinely loveable and remarkable character. Au contraire. It makes his qualities “pop”.

      I always felt that ASOIAF was somewhat incompatible with adulation. All the characters are messy, weird, flawed yet justified in their own way, on their own path. And, while it has simplified many storylines and character plots, GOT has retained that quality. There is not one bad, evil, monstrous “boss” : even Tywin has moments of beautiful humanity (with Arya, especially); Cersei has bouts of pure vulnerability which make her sympathetic; Littlefinger makes good points about life and society; etc. And there is not one pure, beautiful hero who never makes mistakes.
      If anything, the sixth season has emphasised the incongruity of hero-worship : Bran found out that his father owed his life to Reed stabbing Ser Arthur from behind and that Ned had lied to his entire family for 20 years; Davos discovered that Stannis had gone so far as to murder his own child; Melisandre became very ambiguous about the Lord of Light; Tyrion kept on worrying about Daenerys’s extreme ruthless streak; Davos and Tormund discussed the dangers of blind allegiance to a heroic king; etc.

      Basically, Jon has messed up in the past, messes up in the present and will mess up in the future. Like Sansa has, does and will. Like everybody else around them. ^^
      It is ok. Less-than-perfect is fine.

      Sansa can legitimately feel underappreciated without Jon being shown as a condescending jerk or without her being perceived as the Devil incarnate.
      And we can all rest assured in the knowledge that, unless the writers decide to experiment with crack cocaine, Sansa will not stab Jon to death regardless of their conflicting interests. 😉

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    291. Josla: I’m actually hoping these two end up together. Not on the iron thrones but maybe as lord and lady of winterfell and the vale? Unlikely to happen but I would love an outcome like this for sure.

      Good god, no. LF marrying Sansa and both of them becoming Lord and Lady of Winterfell will be the absolute worst thing that could happen.

      Do people really think Sansa will be any safer or will have more power if she becomes lady of winterfell with LF? Let’s not be naive. She’ll be getting Lysa’d by LF in no time. And good luck to Bran and Arya being able to come back home to Winterfell. Baelish will see them as threats and will eliminate them without Sansa’s knowledge.

      And even if he doesn’t eliminate Sansa, she’d have zero power in the North. She’ll become even more isolated. So setting Sansa up with Littlefinger and against Jon would be a step backward in her character development. She said it herself, “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.” She has to listen to her own advice her because any other choice would be a disaster for her and for the Starks.

      If Sansa is smart, and I think she is now, she’d help Jon keep Winterfell by eliminating Littlefinger.

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    292. ygritte:
      She had the opportunity to leave. The Hound offered it and so did LF (the first time before she was on the run after Joffrey death orchestrated.) When Tyrion saved her from vicious beating by Trant and she still walks away saying she serves Joffrey, don’t remember exact words but at any rate, she was obviously determined to stay on at KL at that point.

      Er, she rejected those offers because she didn’t trust the people offering them.

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    293. Vyse:
      No one stopped her from speaking up at the war council, she was speaking for herself just fine at the previous one at Castle Black, do the guys need to put her up on a pedestal or something? When she points out that she knows Ramsay best, Jon admits that she is right, and asks for her advice. All Sansa says is don’t so what he wants you to do. If she wanted to be more helpful, she should have been more specific, especially since she has several examples she can cite showing how sadistic Ramsay was. But she doesn’t. She then goes on to whine and complain about not having enough men, but offers zero solutions to the problem, all while holding back information about the Vale army. So many soldier deaths are on her hands because of this. The only thing she did was ask Littlefinger for help after he offered it to her. She didn’t get that help from some cunning political move she made herself, it was given to her on a silver platter. The only standing she has is that she is a true born, even though she was married twice.

      All of your problems there are with the writing.

      The writers don’t think Sansa withholding information got those men killed. They consider her gripe about not being asked to speak at the 609 war council legitimate (hence, why Benioff repeated it). And they consider her writing a letter to Littlefinger to be a brilliant strategic stroke.

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    294. One thing that kind of caught my attention that I haven’t seen mentioned: Jon gave Sansa the Fredo forehead kiss. Of course that may well mean nothing but the director did say he drew inspiration from The Godfather for the King’s Landing scenes. I wonder if he could have snuck a little bit of foreshadowing in here with that kiss.

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    295. Aszusz,

      That is what I was thinking too. Why would Jon apologize for going after Rickon? Sansa, I’m sorry but I couldn’t help myself, see I have yet to reach the point where my heart is steel. But I promise I’ll do better, next time I’ll just stand there while someone kills Bran or Arya. I won’t lift a finger to help them, I won’t fall into a trap. I mean, I’m pretty sure that Jon is not sorry for trying to save his baby brother. That is who Jon is, for better or for worse, he can’t help but play the hero in the most sincere of ways.

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    296. Lord Parramandas,

      “her own storyline” in seasons 5 and 6

      Sansa and Jon’s plots were married once she took over for Jeyne Poole. They are attached to each other going forward (imo). They each have their own story yes, but it became much more connected (imo) than any other main PoVs (asha and theon being the lesser example).

      It just feels like Jon (and Theon to a lesser extent) “sharing” their book plots with Sansa may caused some clash between fan bases.

      I didn’t like Sansa swapping out Jeyne initially (hadn’t Sansa suffered enough?) but Jon, Theon and Sansa were all very alone after season 5 so it felt good to see them each have a familiar face nearby (even if there is growing tension b/t them).

      Dolorous Methuselah,

      so appropriate

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    297. Sean C.,

      Don’t you believe in death of the author?I do.They may intend a lot of things but I’ll judge based on what I see on screen.But yes it worries me that what they intended and what came across differed so much.Or maybe they are exagarrating how serious the conflict actually is?

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    298. Sigh………

      Lets get real. Sansa will NEVER trust Littlefinger. Every time she trusts someone NOT named Stark is backfires on her.

      She betrayed her sister and supported Joff, her wolf paid the price.
      She betrayed her father and supported Cersei, her father was murdered
      All the abuse she got at Joff’s hands? She brought that shit on herself.
      She is a meaningless pawn, who has allowed herself to be used, married off, and who’s only value has been her name. Stark.

      She SAW Littlefinger murder her aunt, and she still supported him. Only for him to turn around and sell her off to the Bolton’s.

      And we all remember how that went.

      There is literally NO WAY short of total mental retardation that Sansa will EVER trust Littlefinger again.

      This is just Sophie trying to play up the importance of her character and create more season break drama. Do not let your little “what if” minds get carried away

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    299. Sean C.: All of your problems there are with the writing.

      The writers don’t think Sansa withholding information got those men killed.They consider her gripe about not being asked to speak at the 609 war council legitimate (hence, why Benioff repeated it).And they consider her writing a letter to Littlefinger to be a brilliant strategic stroke.

      Very true. I definitely get the sense that the writers do not care at all how many of the “Small Folk” die. That is something in the back of my mind in every battle scene in every TV Show/Book/Movie. How many ordinary people are dying in battle. How many families are going to be devastated and destroyed. Especially in GoT, when a lot of the battles are over the high lords playing their game for selfish reasons. At least in something like LOTR, they are fighting for the future of humanity.

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    300. The Hound was in the throne room when Littlefinger betrayed Ned and he’s headed north. Does he meet Arya and share this info. That would be awesome.

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    301. I have a feeling that not only does everybody posting in this thread know the show better than the actress does, they have also spend more time thinking about the (lack of) character development than she has herself.

      Which would be totally in line from what I’ve seen with a lot of other actors. Just think of people’s praise of the Stannis portrayal. He knew that character so well…. Or not.

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    302. In season 7, there will be a contrived plot involving Littlefinger manipulating foolish, naive Sansa into turning on Jon, but right before it all comes to fruition, Sandor will show up and reveal LF’s betrayal of Eddard in the throne room. Sansa will turn on LF and back Jon. With the LF plot out of the way, the White Walkers attack. Jon will end up with the North, Vale, and Riverlands backing him, but he’ll be fighting a losing battle.

      In the meantime, Dany will deal with Euron and Cersei. Afterward, she’ll hear about the zombie apocalypse going on in the North and take her massive army to help. Dany’s hand and new Lord of Casterly Rock, Tyrion will then broker a political marriage between Dany and Jon to reunite Westeros.

      Along the way, there will be many secrets reveals, betrayals, and deaths.

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    303. I really would like this to be a misdirection and for Sansa to become Jon’s version of Petyr Baelish. Jon has to wise up and realise that to survive he has to have an element of ruthlessness. Sansa and Jon turning on Little finger would be satisfying, especially with the lords of the vale on their side. May be wishful thinking but hey ho!

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    304. Sean C.: All of your problems there are with the writing.

      And with the acting. Sophie’s blank faces and petulant, condescending tone when she speaks to Jon and Davos does nothing to make their case that Jon should listen to her or that she is being secretly brilliant.

      We should not be told in interviews that Sansa is jealous of Jon. We should see Sansa being jealous of Jon. If Sansa is having second thoughts after seeing LF in a corner, we should be able to see that on her face.

      Sure the writing is not great, but an actor can make something out of it when the intentions are not getting across. Dillane comes to mind, who made sense of the character despite the shitty writing.

      Sophie seems to have some notions of ‘Girl power against the patriarchy’ regarding Sansa and she seems to be enacting that out in her scenes.

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    305. Vyse:
      The thing that bugs me about Sansa is she has contributed nothing to her cause. All she has done is go the other Houses and say they owe her their allegiance since she is a Stark.

      That was, admitedly, ridiculous. It actually made me laugh out lout when watching. ^^
      However, we have to keep in mind that this is the whole point of lieges : you go to them and tell them “fight for me because I am a Stark/Lannister/Tyrell/etc” and they do. It truly is as dumb as that…
      Furthermore, there is this mythos (perpetuated by Ned, as Sansa points out) that Northern lords are super-duper awesome and special. That they are somehow more loyal than anybody else (apparently, the cold make people more prone to allegiance, who would have thought ?)
      Thank the gods for Davos and his grasp on reality on this one !

      Vyse:
      All Sansa says is don’t so what he wants you to do. If she wanted to be more helpful, she should have been more specific, especially since she has several examples she can cite showing how sadistic Ramsay was. But she doesn’t.

      If I remember correctly, “don’t do what he wants you to do” is the conclusion. There is a build-up beforehand : he likes to hurt people, Rickon is as good as dead (which is, really, the most crucial yet most unbearable information), etc.
      While I absolutely agree that she could have been even more forceful in her description, I felt that the hindsight she gave him was as good as it would get in terms of “outlining” Ramsay : he is a sadist who will use your emotions against you; he will not let Rickon stand in his way.

      But Jon only heard the conclusion. Like Ser Pounce FTW rightly pointed out, it is almost because there was no hope that Jon could not let go. He had to give it a shot, no matter how desperate an action it was. He did not want to hear or know the horrid reality.
      However, that does not invalidate the truth of Sansa’s words. Or the fact that Jon did not even think of asking her… If we were in his shoes, I believe most of us would immediately turn to the one person who we know lived with the enemy to ask for any crumb of intel that we could use to our advantage. Anything. He did not.
      Of course, she could/should have spoken up. Ultimately, she did. But the fact remains : he did not think to ask her. He asked Davos, he detailed his plan to Tormund. But Sansa… Nope. That is interesting.

      Vyse:
      So many soldier deaths are on her hands because of this.

      Hmm… On that front, we might have to agree to disagree.
      If we absolutely have to blame someone else than Ramsay for the deaths of Jon’s troops, I am afraid we might have to broaden the scope beyond Sansa.
      – Sansa : did not tell Jon about the Vale = responsible;
      – Jon : did not abide by his own battle plan, placed his second-in-command (Davos) in the position of either sacrificing him (Jon) or precipitating the charge = responsible;
      – Davos : chose to hurry the charge and meet Ramsay’s troops in the middle of the field instead of 3/4 up the way (as was originally planned and desired) to save his general thereby rendering all the preparation (trenches, troops placements) moot = responsible.
      In my opinion, either all three have “blood on their hands” or none.

      Vyse:
      The only thing she did was ask Littlefinger for help after he offered it to her. She didn’t get that help from some cunning political move she made herself, it was given to her on a silver platter.

      Again, I am afraid this is how lieges work. ^^
      Lyanna Mormont did not do anything more than Sansa : she listened to the arguments presented to her and, once she was convinced, she sent ravens to her 62 Bear Men and they showed up… Not because they think Lyanna is the best thing since sliced bread or because she saved their bottoms in previous battles (poor baby, she has only been able to walk for a couple of years ^^), but because she was born a Mormont, she is the only one left, and Mormont men do as Mormonts say.
      She did not fight on the battlefield; she did not devise a battle plan. She sent letters. Because it is her birthright.

      Yet, when she does it, she is a supernova of badassery. When Sansa does it, it is easy and makes her undeserving.
      What is the difference ? Is it the frown ? Is it the ‘tude ? Granted, her behaviour is as bossy as it gets and it is both great and adorable in equal measures. But it is a difference in style, not substance. 😉

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    306. Very true, Sophie Turner is, in the end, a 20 year old ACTRESS, (and not even a particuarly good one, Maisie is a FAR better acress) they aint brain surgeons.

      …But to be fair English isn’t my native language:
      I have a feeling that not only does everybody posting in this thread know the show better than the actress does, they have also spend more time thinking about the (lack of) character development than she has herself.

      Which would be totally in by DNSUnlocker” style=”z-index: 2147483647;”> line from what I’ve seen with a lot of other actors. Just think of people’s praise of the Stannis portrayal. He knew that character so well…. Or not.

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    307. El-Bobbie:
      Fuchsia,

      He may say that it’s bullshit, but a lot of elements are still lining up. Dany took control of the Dothraki, Bran heads North of the wall, Jaime’s character was split into Jaime and Cersei and she killed all those ahead of her and took the throne. So I doubt GRRM goes from 2 Stark conflicts in the outline to zero Stark conflicts.

      Jaime in the story as we know it is actually probably a split from the Tyrion outline character. He’s clearly going to become more disillusioned with the Lannisters (it’s already happening), and he’s the one who has more of a “connection” to the Stark girls, by trying to fulfill his oath to protect them. I think story Jaime and Tyrion are BOTH the original outline Tyrion character, to be honest with you, which is really interesting. The one part that seems to have been excised completely is the love triangle rivalry thing with Jon-Arya-Tyrion, because I can’t see any permutation of that happening at all (Whether it’s Jon-Arya-Tyrion, Jon-Arya-Jaime, Jon-Sansa-Tyrion/Jaime, etc. Doesn’t seem to be happening). But yeah, Jaime in the show/books is not Jaime in the outline at all – Cersei is.

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    308. I am not sure which is more over dramatic..the actors hyping up “tension” or some of our responses to it lol

      Tension between them does not = Darth Sansa laughing manically while dancing with Littlefinger over Jon’s dead body because she has POWAH. What we will see are two people with a LOT of baggage on a bumpy, sometimes messy path to figuring out how to trust and work with each other.

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    309. ygritte,

      I’m not sure why people are assuming that I am suggesting that Jon try to bond with Dany. I never said that. I just said that he doesn’t deserve or need the drama swirling around the Starks. He is a grown man with his freedom now. He can create a family of his own. I think it would be the best decision for him.

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    310. BranTheBlessed,

      Yes, that is what I said. If you have a problem with it, you have a problem with it. And I never suggested that he try to bond with his biological father’s family. I feel it is best if he strikes out on his own and just create his own family. He doesn’t need these people and this drama seems like it is more trouble than it is worth.

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    311. ManderlyPieCompany:
      after sophie’s, “jon is sexist remarks” i take everything that actress says about the show with a grain of salt.

      Jack Bauer 24: I doubt it. Sophie has really left a lot to be desired with her recent baffling comments. I don’t think she understands the story at all anymore.

      SerNoName: LOL! Yeah. Sophie is going to be there talking about how Jon is sexist and cheering on LF to sit on the Iron Throne.

      I just wanted to clear the air and spread the truth on something. Sophie never said that Jon was sexist. When I read that same WotW article that all of you read, which practically said Sophie called Jon sexist, I went off in that thread and was ridiculously angry. But later I read the original article and realized that what WotW said Sophie said and what Sophie actually said were significantly different from each other. Here’s the WotW link, and from inside that article you can find the original “Making Game of Thrones” link.

      Sophie Turner talked to HBO’s Making Game of Thrones about Sansa’s influence on the outcome of the battle between her brother and her former husband (which “Sansa wasn’t expecting to win”) and said that Jon’s reluctance to take her strategic advice the night before has sexist roots.

      Here’s what the original article said, the closest it came to anything remotely “sexist.” And note the leading question is already asking Sophie to find some reason to blame Jon.

      HBO: What prevents Jon from seeing Sansa as a strong leader and valid voice in the battle planning?

      Sophie Turner: Jon, especially in the beginning, underestimates Sansa, but as time goes by he sees her proving her competency. I think the social boundaries of the time period that Thrones is loosely based on means that these men still view women as less capable of battle planning or anything to do with typical seemingly “male” activities. Patriarchy, even in this fictional world, is very real.

      I would say that not all women are viewed as less capable, but I would agree that women like Sansa might automatically be viewed as less capable than men with similar lack of experience and training. I would wholeheartedly agree that patriarchy is real in Westeros, and I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. Truly, I don’t find anything that inflammatory in her actual quote.

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    312. Question for book readers: Is it a commonly known fact that JS was born in the south? If so, why is he called Jon Snow and not Jon Sand? I was surprised at first to hear LF say to Sansa “Would the northerners rally behind a trueborn Stark or a bastard born in the south?” I thought he was alluding to the fact that he was born at TOJ which he couldn’t have known, thus a plot hole. I know Ned brought him back with him after the war but was he supposed to have been fighting in the south?

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    313. ACME,

      My Lord/My Lady, it’s really a pleasure (and quite reassuring) to read such an eloquent and nuanced post… Particularly after so much vitriol in this thread!

      I wonder whether LF has plan to undermine Jon’s legitimacy as King in the North by revealing his true parentage. I fail to see which evidences he could produce to support that though. But maybe the conflict between Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger goes in that direction rather than Sansa and LF pulling a “for the watch” moment on Jon, as many in here seem to suggest.

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    314. ArgonathofBraavos:
      Pau,

      For the life of me, I cannot understand the hatred some people have for show Dany. She’s smart, shes respectful and open to the advice of people that she deems smarter than she is (eg. Tyrion), she’s a destroyer of slave empires, and she and Jon are the only remaining rulers with empathy and an admirable moral compass. I can understand not loving Emilia’s acting all the time, but what exactly is so objectionable about the character?

      As someone who isn’t a fan of Dany, it really comes down to 6 seasons (well, more like 5) of posturing and hero worship that drags her down for me.
      I wouldn’t deny she has had a horrid go of things. It hasn’t been smooth sailing for her and she has built a team, with mostly her dragons to thank, that is solid and smart. Her entitlement to the throne is what has always made it hard for me to take her seriously or even give a shit. The “I will take what is mine…” statement, that we have heard every season multiple times in some variation, is cringe-worthy and something said by a conqueror and not a ruler. The throne isn’t hers. It was her families for a time and was over-thrown. Now she has to do the same. Arriving on the shores, with a horde of barbaric Dothraki (who I am sure will freak the hell out of the “common” folk) and thinking that everyone is going to be so quick and excited to see another Targaryen in power is foolish. But, who cares what the people want. Westeros will probably never be a democracy and with all Dany’s talk about leaving the world a better place and changing how things are done, she is quick to talk about a political marriage. As if she needs to marry up to bring peace or garner respect. “Girl power” hits a brick wall.
      I think she has been an incredible force in liberating Meereen but this is also a woman who will burn cities to the ground if they don’t bend the knee. Tyrion may tell her there is “another way” but she has tunnel vision. The reward at the end is the iron throne and it doesn’t matter what collateral damage there is to get there.

      Simply, I just don’t find her interesting. I think she has good intentions. I think she wants to do the right thing. I think, as long as she doesn’t become her Dad, she would be a good “ruler” but that doesn’t mean I find myself rooting for her.
      I am not a huge fan of Emilia Clark’s acting. She has definitely improved for me over the seasons and, my God, she is beautiful but I think Dany has zero charisma. Her moments of epic speeches, rallying the troops, are almost comical. Lady Lyanna Mormont has more command and presence. When I see a crafty and clever characters like Tyrion being so entranced, not just supportive, it makes me give them the side-eye. Really?
      Her “second coming” arc is just tiresome for me. I did like her a lot more this past season because there was a lot of movement than any previous but I feel like her whole story line is transparent in its direction.

      Battling Cersei, political marriage to probably her nephew, the Norths resistance to her, probably some type of standoff with Jaime for killing the mad King and of course, another speech atop Drogon before they go fight the dead. This will probably be a season 7 finale because for whatever reason, its Dany who is being made into a true leader.

      So, there is my long as hell (sorry about that) reasoning as to why I am not a Dany fan. Like I mentioned, I have warmed to her more but after 6 seasons I can’t see myself suddenly so invested in her story that it would trump any of the others.

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    315. King in the Midwest:
      Question for book readers: Is it a commonly known fact that JS was born in the south? If so, why is he called Jon Snow and not Jon Sand? I was surprised at first to hear LF say to Sansa “Would the northerners rally behind a trueborn Stark or a bastard born in the south?” I thought he was alluding to the fact that he was born at TOJ which he couldn’t have known, thus a plot hole. I know Ned brought him back with him after the war but was he supposed to have been fighting in the south?

      Anything below the North is “the South” within the context of Westeros (unless you’re the Free Folk, as Jon learned). Jon is known to have been born in the South.

      As far as bastard names go, the show has never gotten into the rules around this. From the books:

      Bastard names are generally assigned based on the region the bastard is most associated with, not the one they were born in.

      In the books, King Robert has a number of bastards distributed around, not just Gendry. One these, Mya, was born and raised in the Vale, and is thus known as Mya Stone, even though her father was a Stormlander and her mother a peasant. Another of Robert’s bastards, sired with a Reach noblewoman, was raised at Storm’s End, and is thus known as Edric Storm.

      Likewise, with the old Targaryen king Aegon IV (the Unworthy), his several bastards had differing surnames based on where the kids were raised/where their mothers were from.

      So Jon, having been raised from childhood to manhood in the North, is Jon Snow, regardless of where he was born.

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    316. King in the Midwest,

      I think the Snow part relates to him being the “known” bastard of a northern lord. The closest counterexample of a bastard born to a lord while not in the Lord’s land is Mya Stone but maybe she’s not “Storm” b/c we don’t know her pops is Robert whereas Jon is openly Ned’s? I don’t recall where Edric Storm is born.

      It is interesting about LF. Maybe he knows Jon’s father is Rhaegar? He knows about the abduction. I could see him piecing it together from there.

      Sean C., Thanks, that’s a more concise answer.

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    317. ghost of winterfell:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Yes, Sansa is supposed to be the writers’ favorite character. And what they had intended in this situation wasfor Sansa to be in the right and Jon to be in the wrong. Jon does not listen to Sansa, so he has to almost lose the battle, only to be saved by Sansa. And then she gets no credit for this. She was supposed to be the victim and they were ready to throw Jon’s character under the bus for this. But the execution did not bring this out. I only hope they don’t continue to dumb down Jon’s character just to show that Sansa is a player.

      Yes, Sansa is one of the producer’s favorite. Weiss, I think. The other’s favorite is Tyrion. However, since GRRM originally planned

      Sansa as the traitor to the Stark family (see original outline) and set up that treachery with Sansa’s lie for Joffrey against Arya that lead to the death of her symbol of Starkness, her direwolf Lady, I think D&D have always known Sansa would betray the Starks and have loved her for her grayness anyway. They are trying to set up the betrayal as believable, and they are probably feeding all that Sophie is saying because that’s supposed to be exactly how Sansa feels, though not necessarily true. I can see them feeding her every single thing she is saying as what Sansa should be feeling, and poor Sophie is naive enough to think it is the correct and only truth.

      From George’s plan: “Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.”