Just yesterday Petra offered us her wonderful review of the Game of Thrones Live Concert. As I find myself half a world away, I felt quite jealous, but today those of us who were not (and will not be) lucky enough to attend any of these events will be able to get a little taste of it: There are plenty of unofficial low quality recordings of this or that song, but what lies below the cut are the first clean tracks directly from the symphony.
Also, Natalie Dormer reflects on her character’s explosive farewell at the end of last season, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau surprises us über fans by knocking down a popular theory (one of the most widely accepted ones!) involving Jaime and Cersei’s fate.
Classic FM exclusively released a track from the Live Concert: “Winter Has Come.” You can give it a listen here, as their video is not embeddable. Silva Screen Records also shared a track from one of the season’s most momentous scenes, “Light of the Seven”:
If you are interested, you can buy Ramin Djawadi’s album of the Game of Thrones Symphony performed by the City of Prague Philharmonic Orchestra here.
Natalie Dormer was recently interviewed by Mashable while promoting Mass Effect: Andromeda. She is lending her voice to an alien doctor character in this video game — and I’m quite excited about it, both as a fan of the series and of the actress. However, she did not only hype up this upcoming video game but also looked back on her involvement in Game of Thrones, particularly Margaery’s death:
“It’s an occupational hazard – being a Game of Thrones member of cast. You’re always kind of half anticipating that phone call, so” the actress joked. “She went out with a bang, didn’t she? She went out with a bang. And you’ve got to give credit to Dan and David, the creators of the show — they just keep coming up with new ways of killing people [laughter]. I think wildfire was a pretty imaginative [way] — It would’ve been over quickly, bless her. I wouldn’t want Margaery suffering any pain.”
If you want to see Dormer and listen to her (who wouldn’t) discuss Game of Thrones, Mass Effect: Andromeda and what unites them both, watch the video above.
Finally, The Huffington Post talked to Nikolaj Coster-Waldau about a variety of topics, including being a Goodwill Ambassador for the UN Procurement Division, his campaign with Google Street View to raise awareness on climate change, and of course Game of Thrones. Interestingly, Jaime’s actor doesn’t seem particularly fond of what is probably the most popular and widely accepted fan theory and prediction about his character: that Jaime will eventually kill his sister and former lover, the now queen Cersei.
This idea is the most usual iteration of the “Valonqar theory”, named after the Valyrian term for “little brother.” In the books, Maggy the fortune-teller was a bit more forthcoming about Cersei’s fate than in the show: she predicted that the “valonqar” would be her ultimate demise. Of course, Cersei interprets this to mean Tyrion, which is the most obvious answer from her perspective, but it could well be Jaime, and that is what most avid fans seem to believe. Though Coster-Waldau acknowledges the tragic beauty of it, the actor believes this may be a bit too obvious as well:
“It’s a theory … but it has a beautiful, romantic, tragic thing [to it]. It’s probably too obvious.” However, he amended this by clarifying that, of course, he has “no idea” how it will turn out — Which, if true, means the incestuous siblings survive season seven.
Of course, Nikolaj has an insight into the character and understands just how meaningful this would be, not only because of their personal history but because she is proving to be quite the spiritual successor to the Mad King, who Jaime slayed back in the day. But is there something to his argument? Is it too obvious? Tyrion is certainly obvious, as Cersei believes he’ll be the culprit. Did George R. R. Martin expect us to go along with Cersei or did he know we would think it’s Jaime instead? Technically, it could be anyone — There are “little brothers” and little sisters aplenty in Westeros. But would the prophecy hold any real significance if it wasn’t Cersei’s own blood? Would the Mad Queen’s death be as meaningful if it wasn’t at the hands of the Kingslayer? All good questions. And I suspect we’ll have to wait another year before we get answers… But that doesn’t mean you’re not free to speculate in the comment section below!
Hold the dagger for Cersei, Jaime!
Since Kit lied about him coming back last year I’m not trusting anything they say anymore.
True! I don’t think it will be Jaime. I suspect Gendry her son. In Season 3 Thoros refers to Gendry as the “lion” many times over. Did not catch this until a rewatch. I use to think John was half Targaryen but I think the twist is that he’s Robert’s son (high born black haired bastard & older than Gendry making him the little brother. Wild.
I’m more and more convinced that Cersei will be killed by Arya wearing Jaime’s face. Tyrion is too whitewashed on the show to do anything, and Jaime seems destined to fight in the War for the Dawn together with Brienne and possibly die to protect Westeros or Bran/Jon (and because GRRM needs to pave the way for his fave Tyrion as lord of CR). Arya’s training has to amount to something bigger than Walder Frey’s surprise kill.
We’ll see how this ends up, but I would love to be proven wrong and have Jaime live to the very end. He’s one of my favorite characters and I hope NCW gets a good storyline this time around that does him and the character justice.
JAC,
Sorry, but this makes no sense.
Did you even pay attention to what was going on in the show? Just wondering.
A lot of the widely-accepted theories do have that element of “It almost seems too obvious to be true for ASoIaF” to them, but this one probably the most of all. Obviously Coster-Waldau wasn’t definitively stating that the theory is wrong, but I and others have entertained other possible answers to these questions for some time, as I think is wise for this story–it pays to consider outcomes aside from the seemingly predictable and logical ones. It wouldn’t be as half as fun without throwing plenty of curve balls.
Aside from Jaime and the possibility of Tyrion being the valonqar after all, Arya wearing a male character’s face is a distinct possibility, but there’s another one that deserves some serious thought…
Euron. He’s a younger brother, and the show surely didn’t bother to introduce him this late in the story without a very good reason to do so.
((Book and leak-based speculation ahead!))
The fact that the show omitted the valonqar portion of the prophecy from Season 5 is, to me, the strongest argument that the most obvious interpretation (Jaime) is the correct one. The writers of the show value surprise much more in these sorts of situations than GRRM does; if there was some convoluted “it’s anybody’s little sibling” twist coming, that’s not a problem.
Sean C.,
I agree with you that this one fact is the single-biggest piece of evidence in favor of the most obvious outcome. It was too huge of an omission to ignore.
I actually do think her death will be completely bereft of meaning; the final insult to a woman who wants to be Important. I like the character, but she’s got it comin’.
Sean C.,
or that the showrunners are giving cersei a different ending from GRRM?
Just a thought, could little brother also mean child?
Sadly, this seems to be true. Cersei surviving this season has dampened my enthusiasm for this saga.
As for Jaime being the one to kill her, I was never a believer in that theory.
Kay,
It surprises me how many people are surprised by this. Some of us never really expected the whole King’s Landing power struggle to have effectively ended by Season 8, since I’ve never, ever believed that the show was really going to dramatically transform itself into The Walking Dead on Ice for the last six episodes. That simply isn’t ASoIaF/GoT.
Just adding my two cents…I’ve always thought it would be
to kill Cersei, as it’s made abundantly clear that it could be a male or female younger sibling (Valyrian having no gender, and whatnot).
Also, I just love those two, so that could be it, too. 😉
Interesting! To be honest I never really liked the theory because it seems like Killing Cersei is going to mean awful things for Jaime (psychologically and possibly physically) and I want Jaime to survive and be happy (FAT CHANCE I KNOW). Still I’ve accepted for awhile that it’s probably going to happen.
I don’t think NCW killed the theory at all, though. For two reasons.
First, he’s well informed about the rabidity of the fandom and likes to mess with fans in playful ways – Remember the duck thing?? He’s always misdirecting in pre-season interviews also. So if he does know, that would explain it.
Second he claims that he doesn’t know but that it’s a bit too obvious. I think it’s only really “obvious” to people who have read the books or are similarly well informed.
Anyway! I am excited to see obviously what happens between J&C (and how that interacts with Dany and Tyrion) is one of the most anticipated match ups for next season. CANT WAIT.
I’ve entertained Jaime as the Valonqar in the past, but I think it’s way too obvious as well, especially after that look he gave Cersei at the end of S6. I don’t think his arc is about that at all, but rather about disentangling himself from his sister and leaving her to her own fate. He doesn’t have to kill her to do that. She can bring about her death all on her own, which is why I think Euron is the prime candidate. Either way, I very much doubt that the Kingslayer is going to become a Kinslayer as well.
Oh dear, I appear to have been moderated out of the conversation.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yep! If you have a chance watch season 3, Thoros & Gendry scenes. Why does Thoros refer to him as the lion many times, if anything he’s a stag not a lion unless – could he be Cersei’s kid.? The scene that tipped me was the scene where Thoros says, is it a wolf, a lion, and a copper something… ref to Arya Wolf, Gendry Lion, Pot Pie the cook after they escaped from Harrenhal. Then Arya & Gendry are taken into a secret brotherhood cave, Gendry questions why the sac to cover their heads, Thoros replies, so wolves & lions don’t come prowling… I really really believed in the Jaime, then Arya theory for years until recently. I go back & forth between Gendry & Arya. I don’t see Jaime doing it. Arya can if given the chance but I think Gendry will get to her first. I don’t know, anything can happen it’s GOT! I know I’m on left field with this theory! 🙂
I have personally thought it would be Arya for a very long time. The what, where and how of it, is what remains to be seen Imo.
Arya has had Cersei on her list from the very start. To me, it’s an obvious conclusion to the mad queens arc. And even though I feel it’s obvious, I wouldn’t want it any other way…
She could wear Jamie’s face to gain access to her while she’s alone, but that is on the obvious side as has already been said. This would mean Arya would have to kill Jamie at some point prior, and although Arya is one of my fav characters, I don’t see her taking him out. Unless during the Stark reunion, Bran tells her Jamie was the cause of him becoming crippled. She might do it out of love and revenge for Bran, thus enabling her to use his face for the Cersei kill.
I have a problem with this as I think Jamie will redeem himself either by dying for the realm in a poetic and tragic way or some other act of bravery, possibly to save Brienne. His arc to me leads to some sort, if not total redemption, for being branded an oath breaker.
And Arya killing Tyrion to use his face? Not ever. No way.
So even though I truly hope Arya is the one to take Cersei out, it could very well be Jamie. Even though that too seems way to obvious, I can’t help but be intrigued on how they would do it. What would they call Jamie now? What would his legacy be?
Tyrion taking out Cersei? Hmm that I’d like to see as well. He is the greatest Lannister killer of his time!
I still think I’d like to see Arya. Her path has led her to this.
JAC,
I’m afraid you will have to rewatch, friend…
Thoros never refers to Gendry as a “lion” nor to Arya as a “wolf”. He means the Lannisters and the Starks, the two largest warring factions in the Riverlands, from which the Brotherhood was hiding. They do not realize who Arya is until Clegane asks them what they were doing with the “Stark bitch”. And they have absolutely no way of knowing who Gendry’s parents are; it’s even unclear whether Melisandre tells them or not when she comes to “collect” him – probably not.
As for him being Cersei’s son…this theory stands on very thin ice, at best: when sailing past King’s Landing, Melisandre attributes his royal blood only to his father’s side and she confirms his bastard’s status (assuming she is correct about this as well).
This should be helpful:
http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0316927/quotes
Oh, and Rhaegar Targaryen has long been confirmed officially by HBO to be Jon Snow’s father, as it makes sense storywise anyway.
Unfortunately this was an occasion that drama did not speak for itself…
Wild, indeed.
JAC,
Oh you sweet summer child…
The Crown had given the order to have Robert’s bastards killed, including Gendry. It’s why he was on the run. Cersei killing a kid of hers makes no sense. Gendry’s father is confirmed to be Robert by Ned (and Melisandre on the show) and his mother is a common woman. It’s canon.
GoT fans need to chill with the tinfoil.
These actors are all liars.
Agree. Gendry is her son with Robert. Somehow Gendry will need to kill Cersie.
Jon also Robert’s son is interesting idea.
I originally took The Valonqar theory to mean “younger brother” to Cersei. I believed that jaime might kill her, and then he would end himself.. but now I am not so sure. I think grrm doesn’t want readers to interpret these things in such a literal way. I believe Cersei will be murdered, but not by the person who I originally believed. I believe in Maggy the Frog’s prediction, but the way it will happen, well that part is subject to interpretation. It keeps people guessing and predicting. I get the feeling we will be surprised by how it happens. I feel that way about many of the author’s prophesies, actually.
I’m sure we could find some audience for the Walking Dead on Ice. I’d pay good money to for a GOT tie-in too!!
Sean C.,
I’m reminded of your WotW comment from December, 2014:
The valonqar prophecy is one of those things that people seriously overcomplicate trying to figure out the “surprise” GRRM has in store. It’s Jaime. Sure, it’s the obvious twist, but it’s also by far the most tragic and resonant one in Cersei’s arc (compare it to, say, Stannis — where’s the resonance there?). GRRM, unlike D&D, is not obsessed with trying to surprise the audience; he lays on foreshadowing for big events quite thick in many places.
Many of GRRM’s prophecies are open to many divergent interpretations because of the obscure symbolism, words, etc.; Maggy’s prophecies are not among them. They’re easily the most literal prophecies in the whole series…
And a geeky note: “Valonqar” means “little brother, while “haedar [with a macron line over the first “a”] means “little sister.” The 4 genders in High Valyrian (solar/lunar/terrestrial/aquatic) are not sex/biologically based. [Hmmm, this note could explain why I’m “home alone” on a Friday night!]
While I am not necessarily convinced that Jaime is the Valonquar, I think one cannot dismiss it as too obvious. First of all the really obvious possibility would be Tyrion which most people do agree to be too obvious to be true. So Jaime is only the second most obvious theory out there. While the fan community has been trained to dismiss the most obvious choices I remind you that R+L=J has also been the most obvious choice. Many readers came to that theory on their own but (Wimsey mode on) not all the casual readers nor the casual viewers (Wimsey mode off).
Anyway, I am curious how this all pans out:)
Somewhat off-topic: I guess we do not get an IMAX experience for season 6 either which is too bad. I really enjoyed it for season 4 and Battle of the Bastards+Winds of Winter would make for 2 hours of entertainment far better than what nowadays normally runs on the big screen…
I love Mass Effect too and I can’t wait to hear Natalie’s voice in it, There are two video’s of Natalie being interviewed about Mass Effect and in one she says Gethin Anthony aka Renly Baratheon aka Natalie’s on-screen husband also plays a character in it.
I know. Syrian, your post is totally logical & I can’t argue with that. Wild theory on my end. Sounds like I’m on left field on this one maybe even an island! Thanks for the Thoros quotes, read the entire page. Cool stuff didn’t know that was out there. Yeah, HBO dismisses a lot of things I think they had something published here on watchers on the wall, a lineage diagram where JS pointed to R & L. BUT they also said JS was dead. Who knows… It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds w just a few episodes left.
Kaka,
I don’t think they are, Cersei will probably have the same ending as the books, she’s too big of a character for GRRM not to have told D&D about her finishing storyline but I think D&D are delaying it until the end. (Fake) Aegon may have the storyline Cersei has S7 but because they ommitted him they need someone to take his place.
I still think there is a good chance Jamie will kill Cersei, he did say S5 that he wants to die in the arms of the woman he loves so he either dies in battle against the White Walkers in Brienne’s arms or kills his sister than himself.
Saying that though my preference would be for him not to die, Jamie has come a really long way and Nikolaj is amazing at portraying Jamie.
Agreed. I thought so the moment I saw that scene.
However, I’ve always wondered why Maggie used a Valyrian word for it, instead of just saying “little brother”. I thought maybe that was the clue as to the gender of the valonqar not being fixed. But as keltia pointed out, “little sister” would be a different word, so that would rule out any females if GRRM’s version of Valyrian is the same as the version keltia referred to.
The second thing that’s been bothering me for years, however, is that Maggie used Valyrian here. Why Valyrian? Why not use the same language as she used for the rest of the prophecy? Does this mean that the valonqar is of Valyrian blood?
(Jon? some Dayne? a Baratheon like Gendry? but then also the Martells would qualify …)
Having problems with posting and editing.
1. I get 404 the first time I try to post anything. Why?
2. I cannot edit my post – I only get “IP address has changed” and clearing my cache had no effect. Any reasons for that?
Hey I’m just saying the white walker or wight that kills her could be a younger brother … or rhaegal or viserion- both younger brothers to drogon … or was drogons egg the last to hatch … could be drogon … or stewie since Chris is his elder brother
didi,
I’ve been getting zapped a lot too
Despite Nikolaj’s comment (we all know he is very good at deal with, misdirecting, and not leaking to fans) I think this theory still plays. I agree with Sean C on the omission of the valonqar part being a deliberate choice by D&D. Cersei thinks it’s Tyrion but as we know, Cersei is always wrong. Jaime fits perfectly with the prophecy and is the second most obvious choice which usually with GRRM means the right one. We only find it too obvious because we’re all obsessed fans (woot woot!) 🙂 Would be cool if it was Arya, completing her list, but I don’t see her wearing Jaime’s face (would mean she killed him? Jaime can’t go down like that). I have always felt it would be a perfect arc for Jaime to be forced to kill Cersei and sacrifice himself for the realm. But who knows, it’s GoT/ASOAIF 😉
I don’t think that it is too obvious for the show. Without the books Jaime wouldn’t be the first candidate to kill her in the show. And among real show watchers Arya, Tyrion, Sansa and Dany are far more popular choices.
didi,
Earlier today the site seemed to be having problems – it wouldn’t finish loading for me. Could be part of the same problem.
I don’t get this attachment to the valonqar bit of Cersei’s prophecy and thinking it has anything to do with Jaime. We read Jaime’s weirwood stump dream long before that bit of prophecy was written and it seems to me that dream tells us where Jaime is going.
HotPinkLipstick,
What’s Jaime’s “weirwood stump dream”?
And where does it seem to tell us Jaime is going?
Why does everyone have to die in the end? Maybe the bittersweet ending has Cersie alive and well, but she has to go back to the Lancaster castle and take over Tyrion’s job of managing the drains.
Whose older The Hound or The Mountain?There are “little brothers” everywhere.I still think it’ll be Jaime but with GOT anyone is possible.
Ten Bears,
I don’t mind linking, but googling it is pretty easy.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dreams_and_prophecies#Jaime_Lannister
You can read parts there, or find the whole dream at asearchoficeandfire.
I would assume anyone who knows about valonqar, which is book only, would also have some knowledge of the weirdwood dream.
HotPinkLipstick,
Thanks. I misconstrued “weirwood stump dream” to mean Jaime dreamt about a stump of tree limb – with some relationship to the stump of his own chopped off limb.
I have not read the books yet, but I’m familiar with the valonqar prophecy. I don’t grasp the connection between Jamie’s dream and the prophecy, but no matter.
Ten Bears,
They aren’t connected. It’s simply that Jaime’s dream came first in the narrative, is more detailed and I believe, gives a better indication of Jaime’s future. But one line from Cersei’s prophecy seems to have more influence on fandom predictions. It’s rather astounding.
Tracy,
The Mountain (Gregor) is 4-5 years older than The Hound (Sandor). And while there are “little brothers” running around everywhere, if you consider the actual language of the prophecy and when it was told to young Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are longshots. (As I understand it, Maggie the Frog has been batting 1.000 so far – eg Cersei marrying King, having 3 kids who’ll predecease her, etc., so I guess the “valonqar” part will too).
Explanation to follow later*, but if Vegas bookmakers were handicapping the candidates, I think the odds would look something like this:
1. Sandor Clegane 3:1
2. Tyrion Lannister. 8:1
3. Jaime Lannister. 10:1
4. Theon Greyjoy. 50:1
5. Euron Greyjoy. 75:1
* I’m a show-only, non-book reader fan; I don’t profess to know all off the minutiae from the books.
Tracy,
The Mountain (Gregor) is 4-5 years older than The Hound (Sandor). And while there are “little brothers” running around everywhere, if you consider the actual language of the prophecy and when it was told to young Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion are longshots. (As I understand it, Maggie the Frog has been batting 1.000 so far – eg Cersei marrying King, having 3 kids who’ll predecease her, etc., so I guess the “valonqar” part will turn out to be true too).
Explanation to follow later*, but if Vegas bookmakers were handicapping the Valonqar candidates, I think the odds would look something like this:
1. Sandor Clegane 3:1
2. Tyrion Lannister. 8:1
3. Jaime Lannister. 10:1
4. Theon Greyjoy. 50:1
5. Euron Greyjoy 75:1
* I’m a show-only, non-book reader fan; I don’t profess to know all off the minutiae from the books.
R.I.P. Mag the Mighty (Neil Fingleton)
didi,
because Maggy came from Essos, of course she knew the Valyrian
Just an interesting Clegane note, there was an apparent Clegane sister as well, possibly killed by Gregor. It’s unclear if she was younger or older than the Mountain. If she’s older, that makes the Mountain a younger brother.
Alan the Tall,
He didn’t lie. He said my character is really dead, which he was. When asked if he will come back, he either avoided that question or said he didn’t know..
LOL
The only problem with Jaime being the Valonqar is that he was born second. And the second born between twins is actually the eldest… So, technically, he isn’t Cersei’s younger brother… 🙂
Catspaw Assassin,
The only way to figure out what GRRM might do to resolve these open issues is to use imagination and think outside the box. Not having everyone die and sending high fliers to an ordinary life is a potential posters here have not explored. I especially like the part about her hair not growing back.
Kay,
Why?
The show needs a human antagonist. After the demise of both Joffrey and Ramsey, Cersei is the only character left to fulfil that role.
The Nights King doesn’t work in the same way, because he’s far too alien and inhuman – a presence rather than a person. To make the show interesting, you need to have engaging bad guys, not just demonic, otherworldly forces.
Given Tyrion’s high Lannister kill score and the threat he made to Cersie (“when you least expect it”) mayhaps Tyrion’s arc has led him to execute Cersie. Tyrion has been mistreated and persecuted by Cersie since he was born, and he knows it. Who else hates Cersie as much as Tyrion does? You may say Arya, based on the damage to house Stark, but Tyrion’s hated is personal. If Cersie is personally killed by a human, I suggest Tyrion.
keltia,
Keltia:
About my in-progress handicapping of Valonqar candidates (2-26-17, 4:51 am comment), thank you for your 2/24, 9:02 pm comment explaining that there’s a different Valyrian word for “little sister.”
I had excluded female candidates because the prophecy says the Valonqar “shall wrap HIS hands around your pale white throat…”
In addition, GRRM already used the gender-neutral oversight translation error trick with Maester Aemon, i.e. The Prince that Waa Promised could mean “Princess,”
To be cont
Thanks for putting this part up. How in the world is Jamie going to wrap that gold hand of his around anything, much less a throat? He could backhand her into tomorrow with it, but it is not wrapping around her neck. I’ve already expressed my opinion many times that I don’t think it will be Jamie killing Cersei, if Cersei dies at all. I believe he will leave in sadness and disgust, but not kill her. Now Tyrion … there are all kinds of reasons for it to be Tyrion.
Asoiaf fan,
Isn’t Jon technically a little brother? Rhaegar had other children with Elia. Maybe he is the valonqar
Thronetender,
I had a separate commentary about the “hands” aspecf. Jamie only has one, I’m not sure Tyrion could wrap his hands around her throat and get emough leverage, and i think the show already used the “hands necklace” trick with Shae and tyrion
Ten Bears,
The trick is that in the books Tyrion has big and strong hands and is capable of strangling anyone. But Peter Dinklage is Peter Dinklage – his hands are too small. So, maybe that is the reason why the show left out the Valonqar part of the prophesy? Had it changed the wording, the nerds would have resolved the riddle immediately.
And in general I lean more towards the thought that it will be Tyrion who will kill Cersei. But Cersei will have to give him a very good reason for that, some very ultimate betrayal like Tywin. And I think that ultimate betrayal will be her attempt to kill Jaime: no way such a hateful woman will allow her lover-brother leave her unpunished as he does in the books and LEAK SPOILER
. But Cersei’s demise will happen in S8, most probably. At least, that’s how it looks like so far.
leepfrog,
You never know. It might even be Jon. I don’t think grrm means “little brother” literally. But I could be wrong, of course. Maggy the Frog’s prediction regarding the deaths of Cersei’s children is very clear and straight forward to me. But I can’t just assume that “little brother” killing her is just as straight forward. It can be any little brother. Also, me personally, I know some readers feel that it must be Jaime or Tyrion since alot of people wrongly stated that Lyanna couldn’t be Jon’s mom since that was also “too easy.” But I cant compare a witches prediction with the plain old fashioned detective work that helped readers predict Jon’s parents. Grrm even stated in interviews that he doesn’t intend prophesies to be taken so literally, even though they do come true, it isn’t in the literal way. That is what is holding me back from believing it is jaime. Also I think Jaimes future is connected to Brienne somehow, not cersei, although Cersei thinks Jaime is tied to Cersei.
Inga,
Here’s the next reason I think Jaine and Tyrion are long shot candidates for Valonqar :
Aside from Tyrion’s joking with Jaime about being “The Kingslayer Brothers”, and snarking to Dany that he’s the greatest Lannister killer of their time [paraphrasing], it was my understanding that BookTyrion was quite depressed after killing his father (and Shae?). It doesn’t help that he’s still a fugitive from kingslaying and kinslaying charges. For Tyrion to commit both regicide & kinslaying by strangling Queen Cersei to death would be (pardon the pun) overkill.
As for Jaime (to be cont.)…
Cersei will be killed by her younger brother for sure. The one that Jamie puts in her belly when she gives birth or has a miscarriage.
Ten Bears,
Tyrion was in a very bad place in the last book, his basically lost everything. He is very conflicted about killing his father because although he did want him dead at the same time he wanted his father’s approval. The show has changed Tyrion a lot, Tyrion is essentially a real good guy in the show, in the books his a lot more grey he has very very dark thoughts but something that has never changed is his desire to kill Cersei. While Cersei in the show is more Grey while in the books she is a lot darker, for example in the show Joffrey ordered the murder of all Robert’s bastards but in the book she was the one who gave the order.
Tyrion’s reasoning for killing Tywin was different in the books though he had feelings of love for Shae, she wasn’t the woman who had his heart Tysha the woman who he spoke about saving and almost getting married to in the early seasons to Bronn and Shae is the one he truly loved.
“Jaime reveals that Tysha had not been a prostitute. She had genuinely loved Tyrion, but Tywin had forced Jaime to lie about it. Furious, Tyrion swears retribution on Jaime, Tywin, and Cersei. He also torments Jaime by telling his brother of Cersei’s repeated infidelities, and falsely claims responsibility for Joffrey’s death.
He finds Shae in Tywin’s bed. He strangles her, and then confronts his father, demanding he tell him what became of Tysha. Tywin tells Tyrion that she went “wherever whores go” and Tyrion warns him not to call her a whore again. When Tywin does so anyway, Tyrion slays his father in fury, shooting him with a crossbow”
In the books Cersei puts up a bounty for Tyrion’s head which results in countless deaths of dwarf’s and small children.
Tyrion constantly thinks of reuniting with Tysha and killing Cersei, when his asked about what he can give Daenerys he basically says he’ll do anything she wants as long as she let’s him rape and murder his sister.
Some other quotes about Tyrion’s desire to kill his Cersei:
“I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.”
“My Lords, give me the men and I shall sort out Lysa Arryn.” He could think of nothing he would enjoy more, except perhaps strangling Cersei.
It’s practically impossible to deny Book Tyrion’s desire to kill Cersei, Show Tyrion however though Cersei was cruel to him she hasn’t done anything bad enough to warrant him killing her as much, show Tyrion isn’t the messed up angry, emo, bitter Tyrion from the books.
Ten Bears,
Ten Bears,
Tyrion was in a very bad place in the last book, his basically lost everything. He is very conflicted about killing his father because although he did want him dead at the same time he wanted his father’s approval. The show has changed Tyrion a lot, Tyrion is essentially a real good guy in the show, in the books his a lot more grey he has very very dark thoughts but something that has never changed is his desire to kill Cersei. While Cersei in the show is more Grey while in the books she is a lot darker, for example in the show Joffrey ordered the murder of all Robert’s bastards but in the book she was the one who gave the order.
Tyrion’s reasoning for killing Tywin was different in the books though he had feelings of love for Shae, she wasn’t the woman who had his heart Tysha the woman who he spoke about saving and almost getting married to in the early seasons to Bronn and Shae is the one he truly loved.
“Jaime reveals that Tysha had not been a prostitute. She had genuinely loved Tyrion, but Tywin had forced Jaime to lie about it. Furious, Tyrion swears retribution on Jaime, Tywin, and Cersei. He also torments Jaime by telling his brother of Cersei’s repeated infidelities, and falsely claims responsibility for Joffrey’s death.
He finds Shae in Tywin’s bed. He strangles her, and then confronts his father, demanding he tell him what became of Tysha. Tywin tells Tyrion that she went “wherever whores go” and Tyrion warns him not to call her a whore again. When Tywin does so anyway, Tyrion slays his father in fury, shooting him with a crossbow”
In the books Cersei puts up a bounty for Tyrion’s head which results in countless deaths of dwarf’s and small children.
Tyrion constantly thinks of reuniting with Tysha and killing Cersei, when his asked about what he can give Daenerys he basically says he’ll do anything she wants as long as she let’s him rape and murder his sister.
Some other quotes about Tyrion’s desire to kill his Cersei:
“I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.”
“My Lords, give me the men and I shall sort out Lysa Arryn.” He could think of nothing he would enjoy more, except perhaps strangling Cersei.
It’s practically impossible to deny Book Tyrion’s desire to kill Cersei, Show Tyrion however though Cersei was cruel to him she hasn’t done anything bad enough to warrant him killing her as much, show Tyrion isn’t the messed up angry, emo, bitter Tyrion from the books.
Lol! Clever!
Captain Underpants,
Lol! Clever!
JAC,
If Gendry were Cersei’s son, it would be public knowledge. She’s the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, she can’t get pregnant without it being news.
Captain Underpants,
If you are correct–since Cersei blamed Tyrion for killing their mother, I would guess that Tyrion would face the dilemma of caring for the child. Perhaps he will have to save the child from Dany, if she wants to take revenge for the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon.
Mike Heywood,
Hi Mike, not a book reader here but in the show Cersei talks to Caitlyn Stark about her black haired beauty who died of a fever & never visited the crypt. Then the next scene pans to a black haired blacksmith making Needle. I didn’t think much of it then but again I thought it odd when Thoros referred to him as a Lion, esp right after they escaped from Harrenhal hiding behind the tree then the next scene Shaw calls Tyrion her Lion. Just a guess. The show is known for foreshadowing, planting Easter eggs, and equivocal liners.
JAC,
In the books Cersei never has a living child from Robert, I believe she gets pregnant a few times but each time she aborts the baby because she doesn’t want to have his child. The show made the story about her having a dairk haired child up probably to make Cersei more sympathetic than she is in the books.
Mel,
Yeah, I read that somewhere too. I don’t know, and I don’t see her giving her living child away bc the show has made it clear that she loves her children, or maybe just Jamie’s. Also, John Aryn in the show said the seed was strong, why would he say that of a bastard as he had many bastards. Oh! Why would Little Finger lead Ned to this bastard, Robert had many bastards. Why would Melisandra tell him, you will make kings rise & fall (all equivocal stuff here). I’m not certain about the how, but I feel this one is hers, and how they got disconnected who knows! I’m excited about the coming season.
Flayed Potatoes,
I agree it will be Arya in some way.
Continuing from 2/27/17, at 11:01 am (about why I think Jaime is a comparative long-shot candidate for Valanqor):
Aside from the fact that he has only one hand and the prophecy says the V will wrap his “handS” around Cersei’s throat, two scenes in particular make me question that he would ever add “Queenslayer” to his resume.
First – and this is the only time Joffrey cracked me up –
in S4E1, when Joffrey is in the Kingsguard clubhouse with Jaime, Joffrey starts leafing through the White Book listing all of the Kingsguard and their exploits, until he gets to Jaime’s page and sees there’s a brief introduction – but the rest is blank. Joffrey, with mock surprise, tells Jaime: “Someone forget to write down all your great deeds.”
Later that season, Brienne reads from Jaime’s “bio”/intro page (which I think he himself wrote), which states he killed Aerys and thereafter became known as The Kingslayer, and got captured by Robb S during the War of the 5 Kings.
I believe his fate is to fill those pages with heroic deeds, and probably die trying
(Cont.)
Mel,
(Continuing from 3/3/17, 8:17 pm and earlier entries)…
Att’n Book Readers:
I’ve got two segments left to my assessment of the “odds” for the various Valanqor candidates, but I need to impose on book readers for some general (non-spoiler) background information. Two questions –
• 1. The show condensed, modified and transfered Lord Manderly’s “Frey Pie” subplot and “the North Remembers” speech to Arya and Lyanna Mormont respectively.
We know from the showrunners that they will hit the same high points and reach the same destination as GRRM’s books, though the paths may diverge at times.
My question to Book Readers is: did you get the impression that the Valanqor prophecy is so integral to Cersei’s story line that the show would not try to “transfer” the identity of Cersei’s strangler to another character ?
• 2. It’s my understanding that BookCersei was 10 years old when she visited Maggie the Frog; at some point Tywin was named Hand and moved to the Capitol and I think Cersei was left behind while Jamie also relocated to become a member of the Kingsguard.
So my question is: from the time (10 year-old?) Cersei received the prophecy in the woods surrounding Casterly Rock until she was married off to Robert, where was she geographically ? Was she always at CR?
This may seem irrelevant, but I’ll try to tie it together depending on the answer.
Thank you in advance for your insight
Yes! Pawn to Knight to Queen. Arya uses FreyFace to take Jaime, KinslayerFace to slay the Queen, and then Arya becomes the Queen to kill everyone else. Or at least that’s how my fanfic goes.
When it comes to foreshadowing, I generally let the show foreshadow the show. Concomitantly, I assume that major portents D&D omitted won’t or probably won’t be realised. Occam’s Razor says so too. But in some cases D&D will use the big ‘beats’ that George has in mind, but still don’t want to give them away beforehand. Leaving out Maggy’s Valonqar prophecy in S5E1 means the Unsullied audience will be surprised by Cersei’s murder and probably her murderer. FWIW, they also left out a non-Cersei prophecy by Maggy which also came true. The Valonqar detail of Jaime/Tyrion/Arya being unable to strangle her is unimportant because the Valonqar is never mentioned per se.
Since George and D&D like to apply poetic justice to major character deaths, I still think Jaime is the Valonqar. J&C are twinned in every way possible, and George’s mantra about the human heart in conflict with itself applies to Jaime more than probably any other character. He may kill her and then himself in a Shakespearean tragedy moment, or kill her and then go north to redeem himself against the WW and die in Brienne’s arms. If Arya kills her, I hope it’s not because of the List, but because Cersei is blocking the Stark/Dany allies’ success against the WW and must be removed for the good guys to have a chance. And Arya doesn’t need Jaime’s face–she can worm her way into the Red Keep with any old face (using hers is too dangerous lest someone recognise it), but she probably needs someone (Sandor?) to help dispense with Qyburn and the Mountain first. Perhaps she will assume Cersei’s face and do things to stabilise the situation and pave the way for Daenerys’s entry into KL.
Ten Bears, you have my answer to your first question. Since you’ve asked, after a good think about the second I speculate that Tywin took 10YO Cersei to Court in KL as Ned would take his own girls years later. Being at Court would give anyone polish and/or connections. But Tywin comparing Arya to Cersei (no interest in silly romance poetry) and his interactions with Cersei show he knew his daughter, her ambitions, her single-mindedness, abilities and short-sightedness. Tywin was a shrewd man, but probably he could only know his motherless daughter so well if he had watched her becoming the adult we all know and love.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Thanks. I thought I’d read somewhere on WoW that at some point Cersei wanted Jaime named to the Kingsguard so she could be near him in the capitol, but her plans were thwarted either because Tywin left her behind at CR, or took her back with him when he quit as Hand. I don’t remember the details or the chronology.
I try to stick to show-only historical details and foreshadowings, but this is one instance where the bookChronology will either align with my assumptions or disprove them.
As for Arya: if the Valonqar is a male ( the prophecy does say “HIS hands”), then Arya can’t be the strangler unless she puts on a guy’s face. If that were gonna happen, I figure they wouldn’t “waste” the surprise by having her do the face-peeling trick with Walder Frey. Besides, I’ve got a complicated theory about Arya’s future that presupposes she won’t be the one to whack Cersei.
Anyway, thanks for the input. I’ll have to re-think things.
Ten Bears,
Not too much was said about where Cersei lived as a child but I guess even if she spent some time in KL she spend most of her childhood in Casterly Rock, i’m pretty sure her and Jamie spend time in CR without Tywin because I remember a time when Cersei remembers in the book when she and Jamie were young they were “wrestling” in a bed as children and a maid caught them. Also remember Aerys once not long after Twyin threatened to rape Joanna so Tywin wanted her away from KL so i’m guessing he’d have the same issue with Cersei being in Kings Landing knowing how unstable Aerys was.
I’ve always maintained it will be Arya using the face of Jamie who does in Cersei or Arya in some sort of faceless man disguise.