Piracy numbers for Game of Thrones Season 7 totaled more than 1 billion views

Season 7 of "Game of Thrones" had more than 1 billion pirated views.
Bad Pirate Euron quite happily telling Tyrion that Season 7 of “Game of Thrones” had more than 1 billion pirated views (not really, but that would be funny).

Game of Thrones is, by a wide margin, the most popular show in the history of television. It’s shown in 170 countries around the world and has entrenched itself in popular culture, and its viewing numbers seem to climb every season — an anomaly in television.

It’s no surprise that Thrones is also the world’s most-pirated show (hey, not everyone can borrow an HBO Go login every Sunday) and MUSO, a market tracking company, recently reported that season 7 piracy numbers totaled more than 1 billion as of September 3 — the highest piracy numbers ever recorded for the show.

Viewers per episode via legal channels averaged 31 million, MUSO found, but the numbers of illegal downloads “show that piracy eclipsed legal viewings. While this season was the most watched legally, the unprecedented popularity of the show has also seen fans across the world take to unlicensed channels to stream and download episodes in absolutely staggering numbers.”

Unlicensed streaming was the favorite medium, accounting for 85 percent of pirated viewings, with torrents and direct downloads making up the rest of the numbers:

Image courtesy of MUSO
Image courtesy of MUSO

MUSO also offered an episode-by-episode breakdown of the pirated viewing figures:

  • Episode one: 187,427,575
  • Episode two: 123,901,209
  • Episode three: 116,027,851
  • Episode four: 121,719,868
  • Episode five: 151,569,560
  • Episode six: 184,913,279
  • Episode seven: 143,393,804
  • All Episode Bundles – Season 7: 834,522

As for the exact total, as of September 3, the figure stood at 1,029,787,668.

“Game of Thrones has become one of the biggest global entertainment phenomena of today and activity across piracy networks has been totally unprecedented,” said Andy Chatterley, co-founder and CEO of MUSO. “In addition to the scale of piracy when it comes to popular shows, these numbers demonstrate that unlicensed streaming can be a far more significant type of piracy than torrent downloads.”

The full article is available here.

 

164 Comments

  1. Season 8 is going to be even bigger I think.

    Its super anecdotal, but I know 3 different people at work who are watching the show for the first time now.

  2. It’s a shame I can’t have hbo in my country. Can only watch it legally with one provider, and I have another for the next year and the last year, two year contract.

    But I think these numbers say nothing. I download always 2 torrents and 1 Usenet, sometimes a download doesn’t have a previously or skips the intro.

    I think many people download multiple downloads for if one download doesn’t work properly. And is Usenet counted here? And do you count 1 download = 1 person or multiple persons?

    I personally hope hbo wil come back in my country or make a online subscription for got alone. Or a contract with netflix. That’s something I have.

  3. I feel like a real sucker, paying exorbitant amounts for HBO every month when all that’s worth watching is GoT. I should cancel, primarily to stop getting gouged, but also so I can use the line (as one disgruntled customer posted online):

    “And now my watch is ended.”

  4. S2 and S3 remain the weakest for me. E7 of S3 is the worst episode in the entire show. The only truly filler episode.

    Both seasons were too slow for my taste. Stannis’ storyline in S3 is complete filler. Bran’s storyline was filler for the most part. Sam’s as well.

    S2 and S3 were the weakest for Jon Snow.

  5. That is staggering,

    The show is just so big its hard to comprehend.

    Hopefully D&D give it the ending it deserves in season 8.
    No more “Beyond the Wall” nonsense. More amazing writing like the Tyrion Cersei conversation. More epic battles grounded in emotion/character investment like “Spoils of War”.

    Season 7 was a showcase of D&D at their pinnacle and at their worst. Although the good FAR outweighs the bad, the bad unfortunately was the entire basis of their big climax, which puts a damper on the whole season.
    Hopefully Season 8 will be consistently at their pinnacle.
    I choose to be very optimistic.
    Best TV show ever made 🙂

  6. mau,

    For me its still eason 5. But i actually think it was a great season aside from the Sand Snake scenes. Had they just not even focused on the sand snakes and kept the focus on Ellaria and made it a personal journey for her and dealing with Oberyn’s death and showing how that drived her to the dark place she was at the problems with the season would have been resolved in my view.

    The last two seasons have really made me ok with the Sansa stuff since they turned the wedding scene into something that really shaped the character.

    But I know a lot of people who had to slog through the first three seasons and were not fully hooked until the Red Wedding so def something there.

  7. HelloThere,

    Lol. I know its unpopular but I actually loved Beyond the Wall. Everything regarding Dany in that episode was the show at its best in my view. A character making a difficult choice, the choice having horrible heartbreaking consequences yet at the same time defining who they are as a person was great stuff.

  8. Ten Bears,
    I recall strongly considering dropping all of my premium channels a year or so before GoT premiered. This of course has gotten me to keep HBO, but I’ve talked myself into keeping the others as well. Starz and Showtime have started some shows since that I have liked well enough (for a while). They’re not “can’t miss,” and I can probably watch them in cheaper ways, but I guess I’ve just stuck to convenience.

    Mr Derp: I thought every episode from 5-10 that season was good. Episodes 1-4 were pretty underwhelming though.

    It’s nice to see people comment that anything from S1-S3 wasn’t brilliantly perfect. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve loved watching every minute of the series and have never wavered from thinking it’s the best. However, just like every show there are parts of episodes/seasons that are a little less fantastic. That includes the first three seasons as much as the next four. Some want to wax nostalgia about how they were so superior before moving beyond the books. Well, the books have a lot of drag in them as well and it’s gotten worse. There are fantastic parts and less fantastic. They’re far from perfect.

    The benefit the first books and the early seasons had was building the world, characters, storylines and setting things in motion. Both mediums have to become a bit different in this story as everything ‘breaks down’ towards the climax. Some still want the scheming, backstabbing, twists and unexpected deaths this late in the story when we’re at a point where resolution is trying to be achieved for all of that stuff earlier. There were also many great characters involved in the early story that aren’t alive anymore. That’s a big thing.

  9. Clob,

    Agreed.

    I think there is such pressure to just get content out that so much trash gets written and there is a big bubble effect regarding people parroting others opinions.

    Literally the same people writing how not enough people died this year were the same people talking about how the show was too nihilistic in season 4 and 5.

  10. Ten Bears:
    I feel like a real sucker, paying exorbitant amounts for HBO every month when all that’s worth watching is GoT. I should cancel, primarily to stop getting gouged, but also so I can use the line (as one disgruntled customer posted online):

    “And now my watch is ended.”

    You can subscribe to HBO Now for $15 a month and have access to every series HBO has to date as well as documentaries, movies, soft core porn, and sports specials. You can cancel at any time and sign up again whenever you want.

    And there are other series as good or better that HBO has to offer other than GoT. The Wire, Deadwood, Sopranos, Curb, Six Feet Under, Boardwalk, to name a few.

  11. Clob: Some still want the scheming, backstabbing, twists and unexpected deaths this late in the story when we’re at a point where resolution is trying to be achieved for all of that stuff earlier.

    Yep.. This is exactly why the “fan service” complainers, in my opinion, are hypocrites. There is a pretty large and vocal population of GoT fans who constantly complain that there isn’t enough backstabbing and twists anymore. Therefore, if we start to get more of that since so many fans want it, couldn’t that be considered “fan service” too?

  12. Rygar: You can subscribe to HBO Now for $15 a month and have access to every series HBO has to date as well as documentaries, movies, soft core porn, and sports specials.You can cancel at any time and sign up again whenever you want.

    And there are other series as good or better that HBO has to offer other than GoT. The Wire, Deadwood, Sopranos, Curb, Six Feet Under, Boardwalk, to name a few.

    This is true. I don’t know if it’s this way for everyone, but I get Verizon Fios, and if you subscribe to HBO you get to watch pretty much every series that HBO has ever aired for free. In my opinion, it’s absolutely worth it, but everyone’s different. Just depends on how often one wishes to watch the programming they offer.

  13. At a certain point, you run out of adjectives to describe how amazing these numbers are. I’m hard-pressed to think of when another show will ever approach this level of both sustained growth and intense worldwide popularity. It will be a long time before we see its like again, if ever.

    House Monty,

    That opinion is more popular than you might think. There’s no place on the Internet that will give you a perfect representative sample, but from what I’ve seen the overall average reception for the hour on websites like IMDB remains quite high. It would be fair to call it polarizing – it clearly inspired strong feelings on both sides. But polarizing implies that there are two poles, one of which is extremely positive. That’s where I reside, personally. I absolutely adored “Beyond the Wall”. I will vocally and unabashedly champion that episode forever, and I will continue to watch it and love it long after this show ends.

  14. mau: E7 of S3 is the worst episode in the entire show. The only truly filler episode.

    Wow! Really?

    I’ll agree that a lot of it could be considered filler, so to speak, but I enjoy the character focus and that episode was full of the sort of scenes that Season 7 was sadly lacking or which were rushed or poorly written.

    Most of the scenes – such as those between Jon and Ygritte, Robb and Talisa, Brienne and Jaime and so on – built solidly towards their eventual payoffs and the resultant emotional impact of them.

    I would gladly watch that episode ahead of the utter trash that was Eastwatch, for example.

    Plus, give me Tywin counselling Joffrey over almost every minute of Season 7 apart from the battle sequence in The Spoils of War.

    Each to their own, I guess. But I wish we’d had anywhere near that level of “filler” to properly build some of the relationships, conflicts and payoffs in Season 7.

  15. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Ah, The Bear and the Maiden Fair.

    That scene with Joffrey and Tywin is classic.

    “You are being counseled at this very moment”

    Just terrific.

    King’s Landing has never been the same since Joff and Tywin died.

  16. Overall Id say “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” was indeed a filler episode, but so many of the earlier GoT filler episodes had scenes with terrific dialogue.

    One example that comes to mind is season 2, episode 3. That episode is probably considered one of the worst in GoT history, but it still has the great scene where Tyrion is talking to Littlefinger, Pycelle, and Varys about marrying off Myrcella.

  17. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Sansa and Margaery’s scene was a cringe to me. Shae and Tyrion arguing part 13. More of the same with Jon and Ygritte.

    Robb and Talisa had their worst scene. “I love you. Do you understand? I love you” Cringe.

    Except the last scene nothing interesting happened in the entire episode.

  18. Except KL’s storyline which was the main focus of the show, I don’t think that anything else was better in the older seasons. Only after S3 Jon Snow became interesting and he is the main character of the story.

  19. Mr Derp,

    As far as I’m concerned, there was more tension in the mere sound of Tywin’s footsteps as he climbed the steps towards the Iron Throne than there was in the utterly pointless CGI wight polar bear sequence that Dan and Dave wanted so badly, or Arya’s pointless trial fake out in the finale, or that pathetic “fermented crab” gold cloaks sequence, or pretty much anything in Season 7 outside of The Spoils of War.

  20. Jared,

    That is true. According to IMDB Season 7 was incredibly positively received. 6 of the 7 episodes were rated above a 9 and 4 of them are in the top 25 rated episodes in the show’s history.

  21. House Monty,

    Oh yes, there were beautiful moments.
    It was overall a decent episode, but there was a feeling that the writers didn’t particularly know how to get from point A to point B in the story, so they sorta slapped it all together.

  22. mau,

    Fair enough. I completely disagree, but that’s okay.

    I don’t mind the Sansa and Margaery scene, at least to start with, before they get onto the silly sex talk.

    And as cliche as Robb’s declaration of love may be, I still find it a more genuinely heartwarming moment than anything in this past season, especially with the Winterfell score in the background.

  23. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    That Tywin’s scene was fine, but it wasn’t anything special. His scenes with Cersei and Olenna were much better.

    That scene only made it clear how stupid it was for the Lannisters not to do anything about Dany for years. Why not send another assassin?

  24. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    I’d hate to agree with you here, but……..well, I kind of do.

    Throughout season 7 I struggled with my opinions on the dialogue. I thought some of the dialogue in season 7 was pretty good, but overall it was a step down for sure. A lot of the dialogue in season 7 was either a call-back to a previous episode, a wink-wink to the audience, or over-the-top foreshadowing. Some was enjoyable, but most of it didn’t feel very natural to me and it wasn’t particularly intriguing writing.

    I only keep up with a few shows on tv. GoT is obviously one of them, but I also watch Outlander and South Park. Outlander’s new season is premiering this Sunday, so they’ve been replaying a lot of the first 2 seasons and I have been watching. I have to admit, I noticed right away how much better the dialogue is in Outlander than GoT, and it got me a little down. It just kind of brought home to me how generic the writing has become for GoT. I hope it gets a little better for season 8, but I think it just is what it is at this point.

  25. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
    Mr Derp,

    As far as I’m concerned, there was more tension in the mere sound of Tywin’s footsteps as he climbed the steps towards the Iron Throne than there was in the utterly pointless CGI wight polar bear sequence that Dan and Dave wanted so badly, or Arya’s pointless trial fake out in the finale, or that pathetic “fermented crab” gold cloaks sequence, or pretty much anything in Season 7 outside of The Spoils of War.

    Yes, a lot of it was very gimmicky. I’d hate to use a football analogy, but it’s like instead of playing smash-mouth football and running the ball down the opponent’s throat, you choose to go with the flea-flicker play instead simply because it’s “cooler” to watch. Whether it works better or not is irrelevant in the decision making.

  26. HelloThere,

    I had that feeling more in Eastwatch versus Beyond the Wall.

    If i have a complaint about this season its that they didn’t spend enough time on the two critical decisions that drove the plot this year: 1.) not attacking King’s Landing and 2.) pursuing a truce with Cersei.

    I can make sense of it and the character motivations that drove those decisions, but you have to work to analyze it and for decisions that were so important to everything not sure the audicience should have to work that much.

  27. Jared,

    I think most everyone would prefer that Benioff and Weiss work 20 hours a day, 365 days a year for the next fifteen years and pump out 20 episodes of GoT a year until 2032, all directed by Miguel Sapochnik.

    And have Ghost come back.

    But since GoT is about to end, we should savor the experience.

  28. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Dany’s scene with Jon in E6 was much better. It almost made me cry when he said “they will see you for what you are”.

    After years of nonsensical theories about the Mad Queen Dany that line was so powerful for me, almost as powerful as the moment when Tyrion became HoQ.

    And the moment between Drogon and Jon in E5 also almost brought tears to my eyes.

  29. mau,

    That scene is one of the best in the whole show in my view. Emotions are inherently subjective, but it made me feel in a way that only great art can.

  30. Its super anecdotal, but I know 3 different people at work who are watching the show for the first time now.

    House Monty,

    Me, too. And these people are totally addicted. The show is getting new viewers every year. I think the long period of time between seasons this last time really helped it gain a bigger audience because there was more time to get caught up.

  31. mau:
    Except KL’s storyline which was the main focus of the show, I don’t think that anything else was better in the older seasons. Only after S3 Jon Snow became interesting and he is the main character of the story.

    Yeah, Jon didn’t have much to do in seasons 2 and 3 (season 2 was probably the worst for him, as not only did he not have much of a story, he was also making one blunder after another), but is it really that worse than seeing him make one bad decision after the next, which was season 7 Jon in a nutshell? Things were fine till episode 4, however the last 3 episodes more or less destroyed season 7 for me, not only in terms of Jon Snow’s arc, but the season as a whole. I would still put this season ahead of season 2, which I thought was a bit too slow overall, with some exceptions like Arya and Tyrion’s stories, but below the other seasons. Here’s hoping for a satisfactory S8 though.

  32. Oh great.Happy to contribute in some way lol.For me the weakest season has always been season 2 but season 3 had also some boring parts but some strong moments as well.The later seasons I have absolutely loved.And I guess now we can divide people into those that liked Beyond the Wall and those that hated it.I absolutely loved it.It’s my favourite episode of the season.I can defend it all day lol.

  33. mau,

    Wow, we really are completely at odds on this matter, because I found that Jon/Dany scene completely unwarranted and forced.

    There had been nothing in the preceding episodes to substantiate Jon’s sudden declaration of faith/love, as far as I’m concerned.

    You know what their relationship really needed to give it the weight and meaning it was missing?

    A good filler episode… preferably featuring a couple of scenes where Jon and Daenerys conversed about something other than the undead zombie army on its way to destroy Westeros, burning King’s Landing or just how bloody terrifying her dragon children are.

    From what they showed on-screen in Season 7 I’m mystified as to how and when Jon has come to see Dany for what she is, let alone come to the conclusion that everybody else will eventually see things the same way.

    Anyway, we’re obviously in complete disagreement on this one. But it’s all good.

  34. Mr Derp,

    Im only halfway through season 1 of Outlander and I really enjoy it, but it really is a glorified soap opera. And its not a show that relies on action one iota. Dialogue is paramount over anything else. That said, season 7s dialogue was largely just fine. What do people want? This is the endgame. Not time for waxing poetic. Its war. And convincingly showing that war takes precedence over floofy dialogue. Hell the Night King doesnt even talk!

  35. mau,

    That I am 100% ok with. It just wouldn’t sit well with me if in a show marked by strong female characters where one of the big themes is how horrible the system is to women, that Jon ends up the ruler instead of Daenerys because of his “rightful claim”. That would not pay proper respect in my view to Dany’s epic arc but also thematically would be unsatisfying.

  36. House Monty,
    Yes I agree,
    The problem with those two plot points, is that they needed badly to explain them better. They came across more as a necessity to even the odds, rather than an organic extension of the story. I can write my own motivations to explain those decisions, but it should’ve been in the show.

    Oh well.

  37. mau,

    I guess we disagree on this, as I don’t think Jon’s decisions were true to character. And if he were to win in the end, I would like for him to earn his victory!!

  38. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface: That said, season 7s dialogue was largely just fine

    That’s your opinion. And I didnt say the dialogue in season 7 was bad or terrible or anyting like that. I liked some parts, and others I didnt.

    Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface: And convincingly showing that war takes precedence over floofy dialogue

    Nothing needs to be sacrificed at all.

    Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface: Hell the Night King doesnt even talk!

    it would be kind of funny if he actually talked and had a really high pitched voice or something silly like that. Speaking of the NK, I thought he looked a bit cartoonish the last 2 seasons. I prefer the season 5 look, but that’s just me.

  39. HelloThere,

    totally. i think they were in the show, just not in this season of the show for the most part regarding the not attacking King’s landing one.

    the trust Cercei one… yea, that really needed more at least ten minutes and Dany asking Tyrion point black you say she is the most murderous woman in the world so why wouldn’t she backstab us the moment she gets a chance?

  40. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Seeing someone who is willing to sacrifice her life and the life of her children does create a strong feeling.

    And their relationship was developed over the season pretty well.

    I mean there is no rule which say how to develop a love. In real life some people have sex the first day they meet. Some need years.

  41. Jenny,

    i kind of agree. Jon probably should have said are you crazy going to capture a wight is super risky are you sure we can trust cersei?

    but the cake for stupid decision was Tyrion saying “she listens to Jaime, and Jaime might listen to me”…. that might be the stupidest thing a character has ever said on this show. It gives new meaning to the phrase only someone so smart could come up with something so stupid.

  42. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    It didnt seem forced to me at all. Over the course of the season we saw them go from complete distrust to falling in love. And not just their interactions but interactions with other characters talking on eachothers behalf.

    While a “filler” episode might have been interesting (and who wouldn’t watch?) it wasnt necessary at all. Jon and Dany didn’t just spontaneously fall in love. I cant see how anyone could come to that conclusion.

  43. A “weak” episode of Game of Thrones is still better than about 95% of other television shows!

    House Monty, I know of 4 people at my work who have just started because they see me and others completely obsessing over it, and they want in on the fun!

    Rygar, I’m not sure about your cable company, but I can cancel the premium channels any time. I quit HBO after the end of last season and just started again for this season. I will watch a few of their other shows (Big Little Lies), then quit. I also just renewed Starz so I can watch Outlander. I rarely have more than one premium at a time, and sometimes none. It’s just too expensive to keep all the time!

  44. Ten Bears,

    Rygar: You can subscribe to HBO Now for $15 a month and have access to every series HBO has to date as well as documentaries, movies, soft core porn, and sports specials.You can cancel at any time and sign up again whenever you want.

    And there are other series as good or better that HBO has to offer other than GoT. The Wire, Deadwood, Sopranos, Curb, Six Feet Under, Boardwalk, to name a few.

    This is the same deal my cable provider offers, however, I don’t know if all cable providers have the same offer ($15/month for 1 premium channel). I’ve debated dropping it but access to the catalog of all their shows, and a number of movies, through HBOGo will probably inspire me to keep it during the long wait. Cable companies come up with all kinds of packages and promotional deals it is hard to compare “apples to apples” sometimes. It would be worth a call to a provider and ask for a deal to stayed signed up during the long wait and see what happens. But then the money still adds up and if you are not watching anything, it is not worth it….until season 8.

  45. House Monty,

    Yes but let’s be real for Jon nothing is too risky lol.The guy would do anything if it meant giving them a better chance.And he trusts Tyrion considering well Tyrion has a reputation for being smart and he and Varys really should know Cersei better than anyone.In Jon’s mind it makes sense.Now Tyrion yes he fucked up but I view it through the lense that he really was desperate to spare his family and really didn’t want Dany to attack KL.And he is overconfident in his abilities.He thinks he is above Cersei and doesn’t get how batshit crazy she really is.She would never cooperate.

  46. Mr Derp,

    What exactly with the dialogue would you change? Not trying to put you on the spot, but how would you write it so its like the first few seasons? If you just dont like it thats fine but Im just curious what people want. If the answer is the plot wasnt good, that has nothing to do with dialogue. If the answer is scenes were rushed, that’s also not the dialogue. If all people want is more exposition, well the show isnt going to be dragged out just for that. They have to show the big battles because that’s where the show is now.

  47. Those are some suspiciously precise figures. The article does not state how they were measured- does anyone know?

  48. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface: Jon and Dany didn’t just spontaneously fall in love.

    I can’t see how anybody could come to the conclusion that they didn’t.

    From one episode to the next Daenerys went from aggressively demanding he bend the knee to fawning over him like a lovesick puppy.

    And what was it that made Jon fall for her?

    Her declaration that she was “born to rule the Seven Kingdoms. And I will”?

    Her tantrum on the beach, where she accused Tyrion of being a traitor and planned to go and burn the Red Keep to ashes?

    Was it her proud declaration that she had “fewer enemies today than I did yesterday” once she returned from torching men alive on the battlefield, which he was clearly uncomfortable with?

    Or the way she glared at him when he didn’t immediately agree that her dragon-children were beautiful? Or was it the fact that she declared the dragons her children that is supposed to have got his engine revving?

    Honestly, I need examples of when and where he is supposed to have developed these feelings for her.

    When and in what way did she display her “good heart” which Jon supposedly recognised and why did we need Ser Davos to tell us that he found her attractive rather than it being depicted on-screen?

    If him falling for her is supposed to be based primarily on the fact that she sacrificed one of her dragons in her attempts to save him beyond The Wall then that’s fine. Bravery and self-sacrifice are attractive qualities. I still wouldn’t necessarily buy it, but it would at least be a point in the narrative and a justification for him falling for her.

    Because aside from that I find it mind-boggling how anybody could claim that their feelings developed naturally based on what was depicted on-screen.

    I’m totally willing to accept them falling for each other, by the way. I just find the depiction of it utterly lacking in credibility.

  49. Jenny,

    Agree on Tyrion’s motivations. Just frustrating to watch characters you like make bad decisions. But… the human heart in conflict with itself is what its all about and that was certainly Tyrion this year.

  50. This wasn’t my favorite season, but it wasn’t my least favorite either. I would place it somewhere in the middle. I thought the dialogue was great, for the most part, and found Jon and Dany’s love story to be very believable. 5 of the 7 episodes ranged from great to outstanding, whereas Eastwatch and Beyond the Wall were simply good.

  51. Mr Derp:

    it would be kind of funny if he actually talked and had a really high pitched voice or something silly like that.Speaking of the NK, I thought he looked a bit cartoonish the last 2 seasons.I prefer the season 5 look, but that’s just me.

    Introducing Ed Burns as the voice of the Night King! 😜

    I think NK looks like a sad Muppet now. No offense to Furdik (and he’s a nice enough looking guy without the prosthetics), but Brake had the angular, thinner features that leant a more menacing visage (Hardhome face = timeless signature image).

  52. mau,

    I actually don’t even understand how people can be confused about this. Just from a superficial perspective, Daenerys is the most eligible sought after woman on Planetos. Seems pretty obvious that Jon Snow or any guy is going to fall in love with her if he spends a few months with her.

    Then you add into that how both people got to know each other through the course of the season and how effectively they have been living the same life due to all the parallels in their stories and its clear that they would form a deep bond as human beings and how their connection would be more than just an infatuation but something truly meaningful.

  53. Clob,

    The benefit the first books and the early seasons had was building the world, characters, storylines and setting things in motion. Both mediums have to become a bit different in this story as everything ‘breaks down’ towards the climax

    When I think about seasons 1 and 2 I remember how in awe I was that this incredible series of books actually made it to the screen, with amazing acting from an amazing cast. I don’t think any of us book readers foresaw what could be done and how well it could be done, even with the flaws that later watching reveals. I forgave much in those seasons, and watch with lots of nostalgia, and lots of pride to see how much many of the actors have grown. And yes those seasons had the world building which was so important to the rest of the story. So I find that I have difficulty rating them

    As for the last episode – I thought it went too fast, and left out some scenes that were needed to present more of the story, but all in all I thought it was good. Not my fav – actually I need to do a complete rewatch to see which I liked the best, but its not as bad for me as everyone is saying.

  54. mau: E7 of S3 is the worst episode in the entire show. The only truly filler episode.

    I was curious as to what you considered a totally “filler” episode, so I had to go to an episode guide to look up which episode E7 of S3 was: it’s “The Bear and the Maiden Fair.” Usually, your remarks are pretty on the mark, but I must make a tiny objection to that episode being called totally filler. It was the start of one character’s redemption.

    I don’t remember exactly what else happened in that episode, but I do remember it was when my negative opinion of Jaime started to change. Jaime was already safely on his way to Kings Landing, when during a conversation with Qyburn, he realizes that Brienne would probably meet a nasty death at the hands of Locke and the rest of that bunch. He uses every talent of persuasion he can muster to get his group to go back. He saves her.

    The Jaime that we met in episode 1, S1, wouldn’t have cared a damn what happened to Brienne, he might even have been happy about her dire fate, because she dared to oppose or mock his views. But this Jaime does care, and takes action to prove it. I don’t think that’s filler, I think it was amazingly pertinent to the story line – without it, we might not have been cheering this season when he finally leaves Cersei and heads … hopefully North, toward the woman he saved.

  55. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    You are twisting everything to fit your view.I mean this things are subjective but Jon and Dany falling in love was completely believable to me.First of all there is physical attraction and that’s a big thing to start of.Then yes they were frustrated in their first meeting but they also saw how similar they were and how they had gone through many hardships and cared for their people.And Dany very soon gave Jon one of the things he went looking for and was not hostile towards him.Then he saw how she listened to him and wouldn’t attack Kl.When she came back she explained her reasons for using force and their similar intentions and I think he got where she came from.And he saw what other people thought of her and what she had done for the slaves.That’s where the good heart comment comes from.And this is before the events of episode 6 where I believe he actually falls totally in love with her.

  56. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    I’m wayyyyyy too busy at work to get into details about how my personal version of GoT would go, nor does it matter. I already expressed my opinion and don’t feel the need to go on any more about it. If you disagree and have a different opinion then mine, well, that’s great. You aren’t the first and you won’t be the last.

  57. With the exception of Jorah’s way-too-fast healing from greyscale, I think episodes 1 -4 of S7 hold together really well.

    It was episodes 5 and 6 that things went wonky editing and pacing wise, with marathon man Gendry and the murky Arya-Sansa-LF power play being obvious issues.

    But “Dragon and the Wolf” struck a proper balance between quiet character moments, plot advancement and blockbuster movie visuals.

    Hopefully S8’s pacing and editing will keep that balance (especially the very last episode).

  58. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: A good filler episode… preferably featuring a couple of scenes where Jon and Daenerys conversed about something other than the undead zombie army on its way to destroy Westeros, burning King’s Landing or just how bloody terrifying her dragon children are.

    Yeah.
    Or they could have talked about Maester Aemon.

  59. I loved S2&3, I love filler episodes but somehow Eastwatch was so bad IMO and I blame it on the writing, the show was referencing itself too much and the logic just wasn’t there. but I liked the other episodes, however I really missed Essos. hope to see some FM next season although the chances are slim.
    Also, contrary to the popular opinion, I liked Winterfell scenes this season, didn’t feel the tension was out of character for any of them.

  60. I think the worst scene in the entire series so far was the one with Tyrion’s interminable monologue about some Lannister cousin crushing beetles.

    What the hell was that all about, does anyone have any idea?

  61. I have a question.

    If Game Of Thrones is shown in 170 countries around the world, in which countries is it not shown? Anyone know?

  62. mau,

    All I’ve done is point out the unattractive qualities she’s displayed and the moments during their scenes in which a growing attraction appears tenuous.

    Do me a favour then and point out the attractive qualities that Jon must have seen in her at points during their scenes.

    In particular, I’d like to know at which point she displayed her “good heart” in order for Jon to remark upon it?

    Bear in mind that the scene in which he says it follows the one in which he personally had to coax her back from ignoring her counsel’s advice and angrily flying off to burn the Red Keep.

    A scene during which Jon clearly appears to be uncomfortable based on his body language.

    If the reasons they fell in love are so clear, then it should be easy to illustrate, Show me what you’ve seen that’s so compelling.

    I’m perfectly willing to accept that they are physically attracted to one another, by the way. It’s the love that I’m struggling to accept has been credibly outlined.

  63. Grandmaester Flash:
    I have a question.

    If Game Of Thrones is shown in 170 countries around the world, in which countries is it not shown?Anyone know?

    I’ll go ahead and guess that North Korea is one of them.

  64. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    In that scene Jon is uncomfortable because he doesn’t think he belongs to that meeting, not because it is so horrible to consider attacking the Red Keep. I will remind you that many fans suggested that she should have done that.

    And why he thinks she has a good heart? Maybe because she gave him dragonglass and asked nothing in return, maybe because he knows she spent years freeing slaves, maybe because he started to realize how similar their lifes are (two dead brothers for example), maybe because he saw that she is willing to listen to his advice, maybe because she showed the respect for his opinion?

  65. Grandmaester Flash:
    I think the worst scene in the entire series so far was the one with Tyrion’s interminable monologue about some Lannister cousin crushing beetles.

    What the hell was that all about, does anyone have any idea?

    Mr. Derp: Care to respond? 🤦🏻‍♂️

  66. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: I’m perfectly willing to accept that they are physically attracted to one another, by the way. It’s the love that I’m struggling to accept has been credibly outlined.

    Nail on head.
    Obviously most men would find her shaggable (my friends are testament to that) but love is something else.

  67. Grey Worm and Missy sex scene is a product of Dany’s good heart. Those are two people that were able to share an incredible moment they never would have had it not been for her decision than to use her power to end slavery. There are potentially hundreds of thousans of people throughout Planetos whose lives were changed fundamentally for the better because of Dany. Her good heart shouldn’t really be up for debate at this point.

  68. House Monty,
    I totally agree, I thought beyond the wall was great too, I thought there was great Drama, and the action scenes were top notch, I don’t understand the hate for that episode, it’s kind of funny that when you talk to people that watch the show but don’t over analyze it or look for every filming leak or news story regarding the show they all love it. I think it’s the uber fans of the show that seem to be more critical of the episode but it was a hit amongst the general public.

  69. It’s like a random episode was picked to hate on.

    Internet Rando: “I’ll throw a dart — Hmmm.. S3/E7. OK, LET’S HATE IT!”

    It was a fine episode. Most of Season 3 was. Plus, any season with Tywin schooling Joff or Jaime and Brienne isn’t filler. Plus, Theon went dickless!

    I don’t really have “worst episodes” so much as “worst plots.” Even with the worst of the Dorne stuff, that was no more than 10 minutes an episode.

    I have the following missed opportunities for plots.

    1) Dorne. Fix: When Ellaria kisses Doran’s hand as she begs for forgiveness, have him tell her to get up and he gives the Viper/Grass speech. Then he asks Whippy and Speary the Sand Snakes to go to KL with Myrcella and Trystane for protection. Then send Ellaria and Chesty the Sand Snake off. We later find out they are to meet with Varys.

    In other words, give Doran a plot.

    2) Cersei’s capture by the High Sparrow. This plot made no sense. Lancel was the one who betrayed her? Wouldn’t he have done that a long time ago? How did Littlefinger fit in?

    Fix: Cast a handsome Kettleblack and put the “Framing Maergery for adultery” plot in the show. Then have the Kettleblack turn on Cersei.

    3) Sansa’s rape. Fix: Give her more agency. Ramsay bends her over and starts and then the camera cuts to her face. She is in pain, but her face hardens. She knows this is part of the plan to kill the Boltons.

    4) Arya-Sansa-Littlefinger. Fix: They were on the right track. Arya WOULD be suspicious of what (and who) Sansa did to survive. Sansa WOULD be suspicious of the little psycho. Remember, they haven’t seen each other since mid Season 1 and they weren’t buddies then.

    BUT… that is solved in one good screaming at each other scene, maybe with Brienne there to referee. Then, the tension is over how to rule. Arya would rule like Ned. Sansa like Catelyn.

    And then insert a few scenes of Littlefinger trying to make the tension worse and the sisters like “What? Go away” and he threatens to yank the Vale lords and THEN Sansa says to Arya: “No, I’ve got a plan…”

    I’m available for showrunning. I can fix it. But the hyperbolic “This is the worstest ever!” nonsense needs to stop

  70. Ten Bears,

    It was about death and the pointlessness of it all and how utterly ridiculous a trial by combat is and then it was also a preview for the Mountain doing an Orson imitation with Oberyn’s head.

  71. WorfWWorfington,

    1. And how would Myrcella and Tommen die? What would happen with Doran, Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in S7 and S8?

    2. It’s better to have a known character betray Cersei than to create a new character out of nowhere just to serve as plot device. And you underestimate how much time it would take to make Kettleblack plot work in the show.

    3. I have no opinion about this.

    4. Arya would rule like Ned. Sansa like Catelyn. But what that means in practice? What are the scenes that we would see? And how would LF create tension between them if they solved everything before?

  72. mau,

    If Jon wasn’t uncomfortable with the idea of attacking the Red Keep then why did he dissuade her from doing so?

    His discomfort is clearly not simply due to being privy to a conversation he doesn’t feel he should be part of (although that does obviously contribute to his reactions). It’s also discomfort with her behaviour.

    When she angrily rounds on Tyrion, Jon physically recoils in the background. And when she accuses Tyrion of not wanting to hurt his family, he doesn’t look particularly impressed. I can’t see how any of this contributes to a developing attraction.

    As for examples of her good heart: leading similar lives, having dead brothers and respecting his opinion doesn’t convincingly illustrate a good heart.

    And her freeing slaves is not mentioned until after he’s already claimed she has a good heart. And even then he still questions whether they are really free.

    Yet even if we accept that these things convincingly illustrate that Jon Snow recognises her good heart, they still don’t necessarily convince that he is falling in love with her.

    So she has a good heart? Is that it?

    We could probably go back and forth on this for ages. But I just don’t believe they convincingly conveyed the supposedly developing attraction and bond.

    The fact that you have to point to them both having dead brothers as an example of them having things in common just further cements my opinion.

    Perhaps if they had actually discussed their dead family members for more than a single arbitrary line merely acknowledging their existence, then I could start to believe that they connected on a personal level.

  73. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
    mau,

    His discomfort is clearly not simply due to being privy to a conversation he doesn’t feel he should be part of (although that does obviously contribute to his reactions). It’s also discomfort with her behaviour.

    It’s not. It’s clear from Davos’ line what the writers want us to think Jon and Davos feel about their presence at that meeting. When Dany asks him for advice he is surprised, he didn’t want to be there, he didn’t think it’s his business.

    In that moment it was natural for her to be angry.

    And her freeing slaves is not mentioned until after he’s already claimed she has a good heart. .

    Not true. Tyrion speaks about how she protects people from monsters, how she put aside her quest for the Throne. In the scene mith Missandei it’s clear that he knows already about that.

    Yet even if we accept that these things convincingly illustrate that Jon Snow recognises her good heart, they still don’t necessarily convince that he is falling in love with her.

    And what would be necessary for someone to fall in love? LOL Can you give me a formula please?

    The fact that you have to point to them both having dead brothers as an example of them having things in common just further cements my opinion.

    The fact that you asked me about why he would think highly of her in E4 really limited my options. If you gave me the whole season I could have used far more scenes and lines.

    ———————————————————
    But I have a question for you? How people fell in love? What is necessary to develop love? What are the rules of love? Can you tell me please?

  74. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Not sure this is something that can even really be understood on an intellectual level. Seeing two people fall in love and buying it or not at the end of the day is an emotional experience and subjective.

    Personally, I found it very convincing. But part of this also has to do with Dany being one of my favorite characters so it seems pretty obvious why someone would fall in love with her, but lets just review.

    E7S2: Jon Snow knows nothing about Daenerys other than that she is the Mad King’s Daughter and has powerful forces he needs if he has any hope of saving his Kingdom. Against the judgement of most of his people he decides to take a risk and go treat with her. He is worried he is committing the same mistake that lead to the death of the last 3 Stark leaders of the North but feels he must go because he needs her. And he has an inkling that she might be a good person because she has not just sacked the capital when she clearly has the forces to do so.

    E7S3: He meets her and is immediately struck by how beautiful she is. Additionally, he is struck by how they have similar views regarding not allowing the sins of past generations to impact how the current generations kids which resonates with him since he grew up a bastard and had to deal with the sins of his parents his whole life. Not only that, but he realizes that she is much more than just an entitled person who depends on her name but has gotten to the position she has through tons of suffering and is impressed by that. Then on top of that, he learns that his mission is successful and he will get the dragon glass he came for and not get his head chopped off. All in all he is feeling great about his mission at this point.

    S7E4: She offers to fight for the North albeit with a condition he can’t accept yet but definite progress and at the very least he attitude shows that she is a true ruler. What are Kings for if not to protect those who need protection? She has shown that she takes that part of the job seriously. Additionally, she shows that she is willing to take advice and go against her first instinct when she decides to listen to him. Then he learns about how similar they are in that her followers follow her because they choose to not because of some blood right. Not sure how he is not impressed at this point especially when like him she doesn’t just send armies out to die for her but she personally goes out and risks her life with her forces.

    S7E5: He sees her on a Dragon. I mean… thats impressive. Then she reciprocates and puts her trust in him to lead that mission beyond the wall.

    S7E6: She risks everything to save his life.

    Honestly, the real question is not how he fell in love with her. The real question is how wouldn’t he fall in love with her when she is reciprocating that affection.

  75. House Monty,

    In E5 she knows that he is not happy that people are dying in that pointless war, but she draws parallels between that and taking WF from the Boltons. That helps him to understand her position.

  76. mau,

    great. point.

    honestly, this was incredibly organic like two people slowly getting to know each other and realizing how much in common they had.

    Certainly a much more organic relationship based on getting to know the other person than Robb/ Tailsa, Jon/ Ygritte or any other love story showed on this show. The first two seemed much more infatuation/ purely romantic love driven.

    This one had romantic love as the end product of getting to know the other person and realizing their core principles and values were your own and one based on profound respect.

  77. House Monty,

    Aside from riding Drogon and saving his life, I don’t think they adequately depicted Jon’s appreciation / acknowledgement of most of what you have written.

    Certainly not to the extent that I could believe he was falling deeply in love with her. Nor that he would be willing to bend the knee (with all its inherent risks) unless he had absolutely no other choice.

    I just don’t buy it, I’m afraid.

  78. mau,

    I replied to you, but it’s apparently got stuck in moderation and I can’t be bothered to rewrite it.

    Basically it came down to: I disagree and I never said there was a specific formula for depicting people falling in love; just that I don’t think they did so convincingly in this instance.

  79. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    Thats fair. If you don’t buy it you don’t buy.

    What I wrote is how I analyzed and read the scenes but at the end of the day its all somewhat subjective since your not in their head and literally seeing what they are thinking.

  80. Ok, I have a question and I feel stupid I still haven’t figured this out. Please help. (Sorry if this was already covered somewhere; clearly, I missed it).

    When Arya arrives back at WF and is talking to the guards, she eventually asks “Which Lady Stark?” What’s that about? How many “Ladies Stark” could there be? Her mother is dead, Talisa is dead and the guards believe Arya is dead. Wtf did I miss?

  81. Ten Bears,

    I guess it was all a plot device to separate Jorah and Dany and for Jorah and Sam Tarly to meet.

    At first, it looked like the Jon Connington storyline from ADWD would be given to Jorah – it seems greyscale is important in the books. Some book fans think there will be an epidemic that’s triggered by Connington. Maybe D & D had wanted that at first, but figured it would be a time-wasting distraction from the main story.

    I didn’t mind Jorah contracting greyscale, but the way it was wrapped up felt clunky, like the ending of Arya in Braavos storyline.

  82. Erica: Thanks for responding. That explanation, however, assumes a bit too much for me.

    Why? She still thought some of the old residents of Winterfell were there, so she’s behind on what has been happening. Jon could easily have met someone and married.

  83. Pigeon: Why? She still thought some of the old residents of Winterfell were there, so she’s behind on what has been happening. Jon could easily have met someone and married.

    I understand, but he was only recently still a member of the Night’s Watch (she may not have known he was LC, though). But, you’re right. Why not. I guess it’s just not an assumption I’m comfortable with her making because I can’t–I know, too bad for me, then. 🙂 Oh well.

  84. Erica,

    Maybe she had a moment where she was hoping her mom was alive against all odds. She’s still a kid, after all. She’s used to her mom being Lady Stark. But then she realized it’s just Sansa lol.

  85. Flayed Potatoes:

    Maybe she had a moment where she was hoping her mom was alive against all odds. She’s still a kid, after all. She’s used to her mom being Lady Stark. But then she realized it’s just Sansa lol.

    As Walder Frey, she talked of “slitting the throat of a mother of 5.” Anyway….
    I’m letting it go. 🙂 I appreciate the replies.

    So, how ’bout them Cowboys? 🙂

  86. Grandmaester Flash:
    I think the worst scene in the entire series so far was the one with Tyrion’s interminable monologue about some Lannister cousin crushing beetles.

    What the hell was that all about, does anyone have any idea?

    Ten Bears: Mr. Derp: Care to respond? 🤦‍♂️

    Sorry for the late reply. I’ve been busier than Podrick in a whorehouse today.

    I think the beetle smash situation could be one of the following:

    1) It’s a metaphor for pointless violence. Men are to the Gods as beetles are to Orson.

    2) Tyrion’s reflecting on a happier time while he’s having what is expected to be the last conversation of his life with his brother. He’s reflecting on a random moment, and cant help but to get philosophical about it since he may be about to die, and doesn’t necessarily have any deeper meaning.

    3) I have no fookin clue

  87. Mr Derp,

    1) is a great answer. I, too, wondered about that. That’ll serve as my explanation in the future, should anyone ask. So, your analysis just got “Deebo’d.”

  88. Ten Bears:
    Flora Linden,

    What was the point of Jorah contracting, and then getting cured of greyscale anyway?

    Shit happens to people in life. Jorahs just like the rest of us. Hes got problems too ^_^

  89. Flora Linden,

    yeah, I thought there’d be sonething more to greyscale, e.g., an epidemic to contend with in addition to famine and internal civil wars while the WW threat mounts. Or maybe that greyscale was a biological warfare weapons program gone awry. Something…. Not just “Jorah got really sick, but Jorah got better.”

    Though I DID enjoy Samwell Tarly, M.D.

  90. Grandmaester Flash,

    I think it was D&D’s discussion of why humans are violent, through Tyrion, Orson crushing the beetles just like the Mountain crushing Oberyn, without answering the why. Furthermore it was probably meant to remind the viewers how close Jaime and Tyrion are.

    (Edit: I see others have suggested similar stuff, so maybe D&D were not that far off the mark after all)

  91. Grandmaester Flash:
    I have a question.

    If Game Of Thrones is shown in 170 countries around the world, in which countries is it not shown?Anyone know?

    No, but in North Korea that’s for sure 😀

  92. Grandmaester Flash,

    I would have really loved an Aemon scene. They didn’t point it out, but when Royce says “a Targaryen cannot be trusted” Jon clearly knows that this is not true, since Maester Aemon is the one who Jon sought for advice. The funny thing is that Aemon is also the one who said “you are commander, you decide” which Jon is often criticised for. He forgot to say “but explain your decisions and let people think it was their idea from the start” 😉

    Apart from that, for me the score of Ramin Djawadi marked the attraction between Jon and Dany quite well (it literally comes up every moment they meet and gets more “attractive” every time)

    Other than that, I think Jon was already infatuated with Dany maybe as early as S3 and certainly before S6 he had strong feelings, even though he tries not to show them, even partly not to complicate the politics. When Jorah suggested to capture a wight JS was like “I can do that too” (especially considering Dany commenting try to outdo each other”)

  93. LOL, interesting turn this thread took since I checked in earlier on Wednesday. As far as love between Dany and Jon, I knew the deal was sealed when they showed Dany in a huge hurry to go save him, in spite of Tyrion’s pleas that she do nothing. Yeah right, Tyrion. To me, Jon’s eyes were full of admiration and love, plus relief, yeah, I’ll grant that, watching her fly in to save him. Besides, Drogon gave it his blessing, that’s good enough for me. I watched the scene of the lovemaking … many times. I approved.

    And the beetle scene – I must admit, not my favorite either, regardless of explanations. HOWEVER there was a hilarious cartoon, (I wish I knew how to upload it but I don’t, maybe somebody who knows how will know the cartoon I’m talking about and upload it.) that I remembered from after that episode. I looked it up again, after reading all these posts. Still hilarious.

    It shows GRRM sitting on the ground, big rock in his right hand, smashing a character, while he says KHUU KHUU KHUU, with other dead, smashed characters like Drogo, Viserys and Ned at his feet. Curiously, in his left hand, is a perplexed looking green dragon. Well, now we know, the dragon was on the smash list too. I guess the meaning is that Tyrion’s speech was a parody of the way GRRM loves to kill his main characters.

  94. Grandmaester Flash,

    The Tyrion and Jaime beetle scene is great IMO. It is basically Tyrion trying to cope with the very real posibility of being killed, it’s a metaphor for the meaning of life and death. Tyrion couldn’t understand why their cousin killed all those beetles, what their deaths amounted to. He could never find the answer, not in any book or from any person. He tried to stop Orson, but realised that he was to small and insignificant. Now he is grown up, have done so much, learned so much, seen so much death. Yet he is still wondering why Orson did what he did. It’s the one question he will never answer. And now, sitting in this dungeon, he realises that he, like everyone else, is just another beetle. So he turns to the person he loves the most in world and asks what it all means, maybe hoping to finally find peace.

  95. House Monty,

    sexist primogeniture

    What does this even mean? Lol. If it means what I think it does than yeah, it so happens to be that a male character right now is next in line to the throne via hierarchy. IF he can reclaim it. But many of you might be happy that George probably has it in mind to make Jon Snow/Targ relinquish that claim to his super powerful Aunt.

  96. fdr,

    I don’t understand how he could have already fallen for her at episode 3. He didn’t really know her, they had just met. Unless Jon is more superficial than I thought 🙂 I remember people were wondering how they’d react to meeting each other for the first time and “love at first sight” wasn’t really a popular theory but this is fantasy world and they are related so maybe that will be cannon lol.

  97. House Monty: They better handle this well. Will be annoyed if he becomes King because of some sexist primogeniture b.s.

    I thought this had been explained several times. It is based on primogeniture, yes, but not sex. The line of succession passes through the line of the firstborn.

    So to take the British Royal line of succession as an analogy:
    Jon is Prince William.
    Daenerys is Prince Andrew.

    The succession goes:
    Queen Elizabeth > Prince Charles > Prince William
    = King Aerys > Prince Rhaegar > Jon

    The younger children of Elizabeth or Aerys come behind the children of the firstborn. So Princess Rhaenys, had she lived, would have come before Daenerys.

  98. ygritte,

    Well, Jon’s attraction to Ygritte also appeared to be at first sight in the series (at least to me). He seems to like independent women, with or without titles.

  99. Grandmaester Flash,

    I think only in Dorne it is truly primogeniture. I thought in the rest of Westeros the younger brothers jump over the older sisters. Rhaenys would have come before Viserys and Daenerys, but after Aegon. For the Starks: Robb > Bran > Rickon > Sansa > Arya > uncle Benjen (if he weren’t in the Watch).

  100. Grandmaester Flash,

    If Daenerys was born before Rhaegar Jon would still be the heir under the rules. The rules are structured to always favor male succession. That is what I mean by sexist. Literally, for Dany to even be seen as the appropriate next heir every single male in her line had to be wiped out.

    I don’t really see that necesarily as thematically satisfying especially considering she is the one with the actual special abilities/ talents who has given their house a chance at retaking the throne.

  101. ygritte,

    I don’t think it is love at first sight in their case.

    Although interestingly enough i read an article a while back that expalined how love at first sight is an actual scientific thing. It basically comes down to the fact that before the rise of agriculture, there were not that many humans around so their was a distinct survival advantage to falling in love quickly when someone came across a potential mate since there was no guarantee when a potential mate would come across again.

    If that is the case, love at first sight or quick love would actually make sense in the case of Dany and Jon since in their world the chances they come across another equal who would also be a good pairing is incredibly low since they really don’t have equals as a Queen and King.

    However, i don’t think what was depicted was love at first sight and more love after getting to know the other persons values and purpose. There was def. attraction at first sight.

  102. Erica,

    IMO, there are two possible explanations why Arya asked “Which lady Stark?” First of all, Sansa in her mind is just Sansa, “lady Stark” was there mother, so it would have been really confusing to hear her called that way. Secondly, Arya could have thought that Jon took the Stark name and married. There was a bit of relief when the guards said that “lady Stark” is her sister. So, I really wonder how the Stark sisters react to Daenerys, especially after the revelation of Jon’s true parentage turns them into eligible brides to him too.

  103. Inga,

    i can’t wait for that Arya/ Dany scene after we got that Arya scene from Season 2 talking about how one of her hero’s was Visenya (maybe Rhaenys i forget).

  104. House Monty,

    House Monty: If Daenerys was born before Rhaegar Jon would still be the heir under the rules.

    But she wasn’t born before Rhaegar, so that argument is void.
    She was third in line before Rhaegar had any children, and after Aegon and Rhaenys were born, she was demoted to fifth in line. She was displaced by another female (Rhaenys) because the succession passes down the line of the first born. Jon would still come before her in the line of succession even if he had been a female.

  105. Grandmaester Flash,

    I think we are talking past each other. I get how the rules work. My point is the rules are sexist since they prioritize male succession over female which is why there had never been a Queen rulling in her own right in the Seven Kingdoms until Cersei.

  106. House Monty,

    Yes, primoginiture is usually favored males, but not because of sexism, but because of purely practical reasons. Medieval rulers were supposed to be military commanders and fight on the front line and women are simply not fit to wield arms. If you want a women to lead an army in battle, you have to equip her with dragons or supernatural fighting skills or whatever. But there are no dragons or supernatural skills in the real world, so at the end of the day it’s men who wield arms and so they command.

  107. Inga,

    Yes. Agree there are reasons for why certain situations developed that way. I don’t know if the effect of those rules though are not sexist. Practical reasons can lead to rules that have sexist impact.

    I also think the show invites us to consider the sexist impact of those rules at several points through almost all of the main female characters the most recent example being Arya in s7e6.

  108. Inga:
    Erica,

    IMO, there are two possible explanations why Arya asked “Which lady Stark?” First of all, Sansa in her mind is just Sansa, “lady Stark” was there mother, so it would have been really confusing to hear her called that way. Secondly, Arya could have thought that Jon took the Stark name and married. There was a bit of relief when the guards said that “lady Stark” is her sister. So, I really wonder how the Stark sisters react to Daenerys, especially after the revelation of Jon’s true parentage turns them into eligible brides to him too.

    Yes! When you put it like that, it makes a lot of sense regarding how Arya views Sansa as just Sansa. Thank you!

  109. House Monty:
    Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    I think the point was to give Jorah a reason to sell himself back into slavery so he can be in the fighting pit since they had him and Tyrion meet Dany before the fighting pit scene.

    That had nothing to do with Greyscale. Jorah was returning with Tyrion to win favor back with Daenerys. The only reason why he was in the fighting pit was because he and Tyrion got caught by the slavers. His contracting greyscale was an unfortunate event that just happened to occur along the way.

  110. House Monty:
    Inga,

    i can’t wait for that Arya/ Dany scene after we got that Arya scene from Season 2 talking about how one of her hero’s was Visenya (maybe Rhaenys i forget).

    Arya > Tywin: “Visenya Targaryean was a great warrior. She had a Valaryan Steel sword she called Dark Sister.”

    I can’t wait for an Arya-Dany scene either! I hadn’t even considered that until you (Inga & House Monty) mentioned it.

    I can just see it now.
    After Dany makes grand appearance into WF atop Drogon:

    Jon: This is my girlfr… uhhh… Queen Daenaerys of House Targaryean.

    Arya: Squeeeee!!!!

    Sansa: You wimp: Whattya mean, you bent the knee?

    Bran: Uh, Jon, can I see you for a moment?

    Lord Glover: And I will stand behind Sansa Stark, the Queen in the North!

  111. Ten Bears,

    lol.

    Lord Glover will talk about how he was always loyal to House Targaryen the minute he sees Drogon. That guy goes with the prevailing wind.

  112. House Monty,

    You see, the very nature is sexist and you can’t bend the laws of nature to promote some crazy gender equality idea. In a fantasy world you can have a stong female character. And I am not a fan of all these “strong female characters” who manifestate their strenght by means of badass killing. Killing is not a way to manifestate the strenght – at least not a good one. Sometimes it’s necessary, but no-one should enjoy being good it. That’s why I like Jon and see him as morally superior to all those “strong female characters”. He excepts his gender role and tries to fulfill his masculine duties as good as he can. And so does Sam, despite of his shortcommigs: he accepts to do what mens do instead of whining that there is no justice in the world and that he can’t just sit and read books. So, all in all strength is not about whinging about unfair rules – it’s about accepting them and duing the duty.

  113. Ten Bears,

    I don’t think that Arya will be very fond of Dany. Arya loves Jon madly and she is overprotective. I would rather imagine her threatening to peel off Dany’s pretty face, if she fails to show Jon a due respect. And due respect would be thinking that he is a saint and praying to him three times per day o her knees.

  114. I felt Tyrion’s character suffered a lot this season. I felt they did him injustice to preserve Cersei on the throne. It’s that or he deliberately screw up to protect his family. And if that’s the case then they did a poor job at making it clear.
    Also i had a problem with the directing in the last 3 episodes but this season did produce two of my favorite episodes ever, The Queen’s Justice and Spoils of War.

  115. Troy,

    The directing or the script? I know people have issues with the pacing but that is the script. I thought episode 6 was shot beautifully. I think the directing was just fine and honestly I don’t really have a problem with the script but I do understand peoples concerns about it.

  116. Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,

    Yes, directing. For example the Night king approaching drogon but then throwing a spear at vision across the field. That is a directing and editing issue.
    I also thought little fingers death as well as Jon/dany/reveal could’ve been directed better.
    I’ve seen their scripts. It leave a lot of room for the directors to execute the scene the best way they feel.

  117. Manny K,

    yeah maybe, but tbh the masses are not the best gauge of quality, a lot of people love some really stupid stuff

    i dunno, as a non book reader but lover of good tv, for me Beyond the wall was the definition of utter mess.

    i love this show but it’s not devoid of criticism, what differentiates (or used to differentiate) GoT from other mass tv products for me, is/was a semblance of subtlety, logic and smart writing that would sometimes echo our view of the current world.

    not on Beyond the wall and Eastwatch. the writers really did drop the ball on both the episodes to make them really subpar (the worsts of the series in my opinion), merely worth of broadcast tv. no amount of CGI and cinematography can replace good writing and it was pretty absent from those episodes.

    and granted, the writers were never good at romance (hell even GRRM is imo not good at writing romance cause he has fictional people to kill lol), but the dany/jon stuff felt really forced for me, almost CW like, instead of growing organically (it could have worked even better if they stayed platonic the whole season), so much so that even the writers and directors had to spell it out and explain that yes both mains have to do the horizontal tango for the story to progress (which i still dont get why)

    add to that the incredible level of plot armour around most of the characters and well, not the best season eventually, which is too bad because the first 4 episodes were absolutely great

    if anything season 7 really showed that the 10 ep format was not a fancy and that they need those filler episodes for everything to be at least coherent and not a rushed mess. More episodes can make subpar episodes like Eastwatch and Beyond the wall not impact the overall quality of a season like they did with the last one (which makes me scared for season 8, which i will still be watching with excitement because this show has got me wrapped around its little finger, despite its many failings)

    but that’s just me, D & D wont care anyway, they got their millions and season 8 will get all time high audiences for HBO, may it be good or not, so shrugs i guess

    anyways to each their own i suppose

  118. Troy:
    I felt Tyrion’s character suffered a lot this season. I felt they did him injustice to preserve Cersei on the throne. It’s that or he deliberately screw up to protect his family. And if that’s the case then they did a poor job at making it clear.
    Also i had a problem with the directing in the last 3 episodes but this season did produce two of my favorite episodes ever, The Queen’s Justice and Spoils of War.

    i dunno, i agree that some of Tyrion’s motives were poorly handled after ep 4

    but i actually liked how Cersei stayed in power until ep 4. granted i’m subjective, i love Cersei, but i also think that Tyrion and its fans pretty much overestimated his wits and didn’t realize that on the other side he was fighting against people who knew him as well as he did them.

    the show could have made it clearer but it was subtle enough imo and didn’t need that much spelling out. the show pretty much confirmed that Tyrion might be a good plotter but war general he wasn’t and that an invasion is more difficult to orchestrate than a political coup.

    it also illustrated that subconsciously he would always love his family (the lannister tragedy of all of tywin’s kids) and he didn’t really want to have innocent blood on his hands. it pretty much confirmed the different layers of the character to me, until ep 4 that said. after that a lot of characters’ motives were a mess to me but just my opinion i guess

    that said, tbh most of the plotters got way less interesting when they got out of King’s Landing may they be Tyrion, Varys of Littlefinger.

  119. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    I don’t know what you think about the Dany/Jorah or the Dany/Tyrion chemistry, but imho they’re both far better than that between Dany and Jon, which is seemingly based on merely a) fate and b) hottness. One of the biggest disappointments for me this season was the painfully forced Hollywoodish romance between them, centered around youth, beauty, and being thrown together in end-of-the-world circumstances… not one, not two, but three superficial “reasons” for getting it on. To me, it all seems so antithetical to everything GoT has championed, in some way or another, and nearly everything Ned Stark, the “father” Jon has always sought to emulate, stood for.

    Then again, I can only hope all this Jon/Dany silliness is somehow supposed to echo all the Rhaegar/Lyanna silliness.

    Ouyr cynical French friend, ACME, must be tied up in knots about all this shite…

  120. Erica,

    My guess is that, given that Arya didn’t know about Jon being The Kitten until Hot Pie told her, she might have thought there was something else she didn’t know (e.g., Jon having been legitimized as a Stark and married). Remember, it would have taken her several months to travel from the Inn at the Crossroads to Winterfell, and a lot could have happened in that time.

  121. Ten Bears,

    Yours is by far my favorite theory about Jorah’s greyscale, and if it turns out to be just some random shite that happened to him because of the opportunity to send him on an epic Find-A-Cure Journey (during which he did not encounter Quaithe again, much to my disappointment), only to wind up remaining in the FriendZone because of BoatSex, well…

    …that’s some really shitty writing.

  122. mau: and MUSO, a market tracking company, recently reported that season 7 piracy numbers totaled more than 1 billion as of September 3 — the highest piracy numbers ever recorded for the show.

    Really? For me the weakest seasons are 5 and 2 whilst the best are 6, 4 and 3 in that order. I actually prefer season 2 over the show over A clash of kings book, they trimmed the fat extremely well there but overall content doesn’t match other seasons.

  123. Remember to compare apples to apples. You can’t compare 31 million AMERICAN viewers per episode through HBO to 130 million WORLDWIDE piracy viewers. So, it’s not clear that piracy has eclipsed legal viewership. Do we have any idea what the worldwide legal viewing figures are?

  124. I’ll admit that I pirated every episode but more out of necessity. I have an HBOGO pass and on the night of the episode it’s almost impossible to watch it without experiencing constant video buffering. If the episode would play right through I wouldn’t have to download it from a torrent site. Not sure how many people have experienced this but when your watching a show that stops every 4 mins to load it is extremely frustrating.

    If the video was to play through without a constant interruption I doubt that I would download it from a torrenting site.

    I do have an HBOGO pass so at least I am not a total freeloader since I do technically pay for the show. I doubt that I am the only one out there in the same situation so to stop people like myself from downloading through a torrenting site HBO needs to invest more in their streaming network.

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