Several interviews with the cast are hitting the internet these days to promote the imminent release of the Season Four boxsets (scheduled for February 17th). We have rounded up three of them here, namely with Nathalie, Sophie, and Kit, but more can be expected.
The Telegraph wrote a piece centered on the question of race in Game of Thrones featuring quotes from Natalie Emmanuel, who plays Missandei on the show. She talks about the storyline she is closely involved with:
I understand people’s feelings on the issue, but, at the same time I think the show is really good at creating characters of all races and colour that have power and education. It’s not just a stereotype of ‘white powerful person’ and ‘enslaved non-white person’: I think it’s a bit more complicated than that.
Daenerys as a character, she’s been sold like a slave, for the advancement of men, to gain power – so it’s a different type of slavery, but it still counts. Regardless of how you feel about the fact that you’ve got this white woman saving all these slaves, she’s coming from a place where she understands and almost feels that she’s been in a similar place. They [the programme-makers] just show a girl who has seen something she finds wrong, and is doing something about it. To bring race into it – obviously it’s relevant, but it’s not fundamentally what it’s about.
The article recalls earlier comments from George R.R. Martin on the same issue. He brought up the showrunners’ efforts to promote diversity, such as casting a black actor for Areo Hotah, the honorable guard in the Dorne storyline whose race is not clearly specified in the books. GRRM also said:
Westeros around 300 AC is nowhere near as diverse as 21st century America, of course … but, that being said, I do have some ‘characters of colour’ who will have somewhat larger roles in Winds of Winter.
The interview with Sophie Turner by The Huffington Post touches on a number of topics, the central ones of course revolving around Sansa’s character development. About Joffrey’s death, she says:
It’s bittersweet for me because, yes, I’m happy for Sansa that he finally dies. But also I think, you know, Jack Gleeson was such a wonderful person to be able to play off and I’m really gonna miss him.
On her relationship with Littlefinger:
I kind of love the storyline. I mean, for some viewers, it’s very creepy, but that’s kind of what it’s supposed to be. It’s supposed to be this very messed up, twisted relationship in which Sansa knows she can manipulate Littlefinger to get what she wants, and he can do the same with her. And together they create this amazing kind of tag team. And, you know, to outsiders, it’s very messed up and strange, but to her it’s the only way she can get what she wants, and finally she has that power, so she’s gonna use it.
Finally, she also promises an even more exciting season five. What else did you expect.
There’s some massive moments, perhaps even more shocking than the Red Wedding type of thing. There’s like a lot going on this season. There’s also, you know, a lot of blood, a lot of death. And a lot of people kind of come far. And there are a few familiar faces around as well.
Kit Harington, talking to The Telegraph, plays the role of GRRM’s champion, speaking up against the pressure, and yes, even abuse, directed at the author, and internet abuse in general. Prompted to speak about any pressure he personally feels from the obsessive fans, he says:
The only thing I get p–sed off about is that, as far as George RR Martin goes, there’s a lot of fan pressure on him – a lot of nasty, manipulative, quite vicious fan pressure that’s aimed towards him, about his health, and about when he is producing the next book. I get quite angry about that.
Kit consideres George a professional friend, if not a “friend friend”. He talks a little about the show definitely going past the books in certain bits of season five, and how when it comes to his character’s future, he knows nothing, just like Jon Snow.
One Realm!
One God!
One King!
More shocking than The Red Wedding? Somehow I doubt that, but at the same time it’s possible that there will be a few very shocking moments for book readers as well. Maybe the rumors that she will be replacing Wyman Manderly and all his pie-schemes are true then? Maybe we will get a Red Wedding meets Purple Wedding type massacre? Crackpot, I know…..but maybe?
Wish Kit would provide some examples of the mean meanies out there and what they said rather than just taking another’s word that such a thing actually happens with any frequency. Because, outside a few of the darker corners of the internet, most people are expressing valid concerns.
Strictly speaking, it’s conjecture: no reports from the sets have indicated anything like that.
Moreover, there is speculation that there are other things coming up in Sansa’s storyline that will be a bit shocking. Out-doing the Red Wedding probably is hyperbole, but we’ve known for a while that at least one proof-reader of Winter thinks that some people will find Sansa’s early Winter material controversial. Now that TVSansa is embarking on Winter material, the simplest explanation is that Turner is referring to this.
Damn Nathalie Emmanuel is so damn fine…
Wimsey,
You’re thinking of Elio Garcia. He recently confirmed in his analysis of the Season 5 trailer that his comments about the Sansa chapter being controversial have been blown out of proportion. He claims it will be controversial to some fans of the character, but outright confirmed it will not involve anything sexual or violent in nature, certainly nothing like the kind of thing we have been assuming.
Well, from George’s comment it appears the Martell’s are going to have a very big role in Winds.
In honor of Valentine’s day, “Love ya Missanderrr…I mean Natalie Emmanuel”, just getting a heads up, a few days early. Hope your BFF treats you to something special on that day, you deserve it. It would be ironic if you and Kit sit the Iron Throne, his character a bastard and your’s a former slave; two persons representing classes oppressed in society.
Don’t believe the hype, they’re saying that every season.
From Sophie’s interview : On a scale from one to 10, with 10 being the Red Wedding, how hard is it to watch your traumatic scene in Season 5?
“I think I really bigged that one up. [Laughs] It’s traumatic, but isn’t all of “Game of Thrones” traumatic? I give it a solid “6,” though … It’s a pretty intense scene. I can’t say much more than that.”
99% confirmed that
I knew she was overreacting. I’m afraid she will become Sansaheart…..
The Hound,
I hope you’re right.
I have been thinking that if she was actually playing
, she would have said “traumatic season“, not “traumatic scene”. It also doesn’t really seem to line up with her talk of scheming with Littlefinger.
Jordan,
Everything is possible at this point, they’re playing with us!!! :@
No but seriously “more shocking than the Red Wedding” what a ridiculous statement.
And why would she reveal that? I hate her interviews……..she’s the Norman Reedus of GoT.
That does not rule out the possibility of the book issue and the TV issue being one and the same: it only means that we have guessed wrong.
Luka Nieto,
Elio’s comments make it sound to me that, in the book at least, we may
Like any actor on the show, she can’t divulge pretty much anything, and they’re all going to hype it up in some way. I’m sure what she’s referencing won’t have the same shock and horror of the RW, but she’s in the show and knows what’s coming. I feel like the viewers are going to shocked, blindsided and taken for a ride, you need that element of surprise 5 seasons in.
April come here fastterr!
Does anyone else think that black hair doesn’t really suit Sansa (Sophie Turner)? She looks kinda like a vampire in that picture.
Sophie’s comments are pretty intriguing.
I hate how they always promote this show “lots of death, lots of shocking moments, sex, blood, epic, huge scale”
it’s very silly, back in Season 1 they were praising the good dialogues and the writing…..which is the strong point of aSoIaF
afeastfordances,
I get the sense it will involve SR. Controversial in the sense something goes awry there, it might not make nuch narrative sense, I don’t know.
At this point, I would actually like to see HtH, the Vale needs an injection of new blood. Just always felt like that was a bit of a red herring in the books.
Well I’m glad for that traumatic scene info because Sansa in Winterfell theory was getting more credibility than it deserved. That would be all kinds of messed up and resulted in a traumatic season not a scene, as Jordan said upthread.
Also it’s funny she mentioned she’s dyed her hair and got a dark dress to get away from her Tully roots yet people comment how she is looking more like Catelyn so Sansa must be playing that up to attract LF lol. She’s clearly emulating LF’s looks, people.
Also interesting that Sophie thinks Daenerys is a threat for her character so if she wished a character dead it would be her or her dragons. Hmmm… hinting at her potential storyline maybe?
Lastly, this made me laugh:
Sansa loves songs, so if she had a theme song for Season 5, what would it be?
“If I Were a Boy” by Beyoncé. [Laughs] No, I can’t think of one. If I were a boy, Little Finger wouldn’t hit on me.”
Maybe not worth mentioning (a tad too late), but
Q: You were quick to deny rumors of your presumed involvement in the upcoming season of Game of Thrones. How do you feel about fans still wanting you to come back after all this time?
MF: I guess I’m honored in a way. I didn’t deny or confirm anything, though. I didn’t even know about the darned thing until recently. I stay out of that stuff.
Q: Still, the rumor was shot down last week.
MF: Oh, yeah. That was my agency. Yes.
Q: Are you allowed to personally confirm your non-involvement? Put us out of our misery!
MF: (Laughs) I can’t, sorry. I’ll say what I’ve always said. I can’t confirm or deny anything until after the season airs. Not my terms, not my terms, sorry!
Brynden,
Source? ‘Cause without one this don’t mean much. It could be the same old trolling we’ve seen time and again on this subject.
The only really huge shocking thing I can think of from books 4 and 5 is FTW. If it makes it in, it’ll be a huge HOLYSHITOMGWHATTHEFUCK for a lot of people.
The Hound,
I hope this also means that she wont be taking
role.
Greenjones,
No problem. The interview was aired several times yesterday and today on AXN Latinoamérica (it’s a group interview with Frances Fisher and Omar Epps from ‘Resurrection’). Knowing how the channel works, it will keep airing for a few days probably. To those who watch it, I apologize if I mangled any of the questions/answers, but that was the gist of it.
But if Elio specified it wasn’t violent, then it can’t be that.
afeastfordances,
That is very implausible (if not flat-out impossible) for one simple reason:
Brynden,
The truth is that it really IS the same answer she’s always given to the media. The fact she’s flat out refusing to deny or confirm is a bit new. Usually is just skilful avoidance. I wish I would see it though for myself.
Felt Pelt,
Ah, not all homicide is violent. Never underestimate the ability of people to dissemble.
Controversial scene revealed Sansa falls in love with littlefinger! Lol that would piss people off
There’s a “perhaps” there, for starters. And since it’s a matter of opinion, something like
could easily fit that bill for many people.
Tormund’s Woman,
It really isn’t new.
And please keep
covered for spoilers, everyone, please.
I for once would love if something like that happened. This show is known for its unexpected twists and I would expect someone as keen as Petyr would survive at the end of the series. He and Sansa could become the lords of one of the major houses of Westeros me thinks lol…
The Hound,
No,it isn’t,especially after the last two books,but we have to agree to disagree on that matter. As for Kit’s comments in regards to Martin,we wouldn’t shit on him if he didn’t dismiss any valid criticism of his books as being the work of trolls,screw him after making us wait for two inferior books then acting like we should be happy he even released them made me lose all the respect i had for this guy .
Sue the Fury,
Can’t wait to see what she says after the season has ended! Should be a fun string along.
Feel free to cover my previous post with spoiler tags. It is too late for me to do so.
Josla,
Considering how messed up everyone is in the game of thrones world u can do worse than little finger.
Eh I think the obvious end of ADWD event is what Sophie is referring to or a non-book surprise.
Concerning Ms Turner, damn, I found this pic while surfing, does she not look the part of a queen or what.
http://ffaasstt.swide.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sophie-turner-photos-in-dolce-and-gabbana-fashion-editorials-covers-and-red-carpet.jpg
She’s a whole year older now, as that issue was last March.
I don’t think she’s gunna get ur message….
tyjon,
I hope sansa kills dany and rules westeros
I think
The traumatic scene is gonna involve little finger Sansa and ls , Sansa running into her dead ” secret charector mother” would be compelling
Shane Snow,
Duh, well of course not, she has a life after all. Don’t take that out of context please. I’m not saying online posters don’t have lives, we all do, her’s is just more insanely fun, busy and interesting than most people.
“We want more scenes with Missandei and Grey Worm!” said no one ever.
Yung Wolf,
I quite like both characters, particularly Jacob Anderson’s Grey Worm. I have no problem with the show turning them into actual people and giving them a couple of two minute scenes together.
You’d be wrong about that. I know quite a few people who really like them, both as individual characters and their relationship.
Find it intersting that Sansa wants Dany and/or her dragons dead. Maybe that hints at a possible confrontation between them in the future of the show. Perhaps in the show we will get
Wow, some great interviews.
I think Nathalie nailed it about the race thing, at least I agree with her.
Also, Spider-Man finally joined the MCU! Can’t wait to see who they cast as Peter Parker!
The Hound,
At this moment it’s all conjecture, but I wouldn’t be so quick to shoot down a theory based on some vague interview statements that could relate to anything.
http://mustangnews.net/game-of-thrones-season-5-premiere-comes-to-cal-poly-early/
Yeah I remember seeing an ad between season 1 and 2 narrated by “King Robert”, it basically focused on the quirky fantasy nature of the series etc
Season 1 seemed very much fantasy, but I recall watching some reviewers before season 2 who said the show is good in large part because it is like a Medieval drama and the Fantasy elements like White Walkers etc pushed to the periphery then after that it has turned into a mega beast
Think it’s the fact that the RW has re-defined TV and will be one of the biggest moments in TV history for some time to come
Now I’m shuddering at all the Matrix style copycat efforts that are sure to follow
Yeah maybe it’s the lighting, eg she’s not in KL. Have to compare to Winterfell scenes in the pilot
More likely though they are “making her down” ala Gwendoline Christie/Brienne, in this case to change her from Tully style Beauty Sansa into a Littlefinger protege
This is dissapointing from a Sansa as Margaery protege perspective but her arc is what it is
Found the idea of her as a substitute for fArya as ridiculous, as it’s regressive in terms of Sansa’s arc and basically putting her in the same position, just substitute Ramsay for Joffrey and Roose for Cersei. On the other side of the coin it is perhaps a case of “niece” Alayne being a substitute for Jeyne Poole (fArya) which would be quite ironic.
Ultimately I think they’d do well to actually develop the Vale a tiny bit, as part of a wider Vale/Riverlands sub-plot and tie it in with Walder Frey/Brienne and perhaps Jaimie in s6 etc, rather than tie the Vale in with Winterfell, as we already now have the Wall tied in with Winterfell and are combining Jon, Roose/Ramsay and Stannis/Melisandre so the north doesen’t require a fourth party
Shaz,
I agree. Some fans get so upset at the actors for hyping up story lines, but what exactly do you expect them to do? Say the show is garbage and you shouldn’t watch it? They’re supposed to promote it, it’s their job. And it’s always funny how some people always complain before knowing what happens and act as if they’re more informed about the story than the actors who have not only read the scripts, but also acted them out.
But I’m liking the set of theories surrounding Sansa. At this point I’m expecting someone to say she’ll replace the White Walkers. It’s quite entertaining.
Also, Kit is right. The comments about GRRM are getting more and more inappropriate every day.
Yung Wolf,
Oh. I guess I’m “No one”, not unlike Arya in Braavos. Good to know. That’s a cool thing to be!
Now, seriously: as you’ve seen from other replies, plenty of people enjoy those characters, their relationship and most of all D&D efforts to turn Grey Worm into an actual character, which he really wasn’t before (or in the books.) That includes giving them lives and motivations of their own, separate of Dany and her immediate needs, which not even Missandei had in the books.
But of course, since in the minds of some people developing these characters is somehow the reason we’re not getting Aegon or the Greyjoy uncles (a twisted logic if there ever was one), it was bound to be a controversial decision, despite D&D’s best efforts.
Still, it’s only “controversial”, and mostly only among certain avid book readers. So, not “no one.” Not by a long shot. If anything, it’s a surprisingly popular relationship among show watchers. And it IS fascinating, not just sappy romance, if you care enough to think about it. How many relationships that include a eunuch have you seen depicted in media?
The Hound,
Because it’s safe and easy. They can easily say the wrong thing and get in a whole lot of trouble. They could get fired, or worse, sued for revealing too much.
I admire Nathalie Emmanuel <3
Yung Wolf,
I hope we have significantly more of them, honestly. Not only for reasons others have brought up, but because we need some more major characters of color on the show. The main characters on GoT are almost completely white, and persons of color like Missandei and Grey Worm can feel more like glorified extras than actual characters that contribute to the story, so thank goodness for their S4 material. Honestly my only criticism is that their storyline only really featured in a couple episodes.
Wimsey,
Yeah, probably. I did say it was crackpot though ;-P
Luka Nieto,
Seconded. This is a well-conceived show-only subplot; it adds texture and humanity to the Meereen thread. They’ve done well showing us a quite emotionally complex relationship in a relatively short amount of screen time.
I actually enjoy their scenes.
Waxfoot,
That’s something nobody had touched on in this thread. Many of us have said we simply like the relationship. Others have pointed out the positives of developing non-white people as actual characters with lives of their own, instead of being relegated to little more than featured extras. I added my two cents by pointing out the relationship’s rather unique facet of involving a eunuch, which is just not something that you see on mainstream media (eunuchs, asexuals… hell, rarely even bisexuals.) But you hit on something that is more relevant for the actual show, for the quality of the narrative: “it adds texture and humanity to the Meereen storyline”, something it was sorely missing according to many people and critics in ADWD. Dany’s story wouldn’t have been so boring to them if there were more characters in which we could find ourselves invested in.
So, thank you Yung Wolf for sparking this conversation, though it probably wasn’t what you were looking for with your comment 😉
Ghost’s Lunch,
I agree, especially about Sansa as fArya being regressive for her character development and about the notion that developing the Vale may not be a bad idea after all. D&D are doing Dorne, why not the Vale? They’re the last two kingdoms/regions yet to enter the war. Season 5 may be the season they both start moving pieces in the game of thrones.
Luka Nieto,
Yeah I don’t mind the Missandei/Grey Worm thing, in this case Grey Worm is arguably filling the role of Missandeis brother plus it fleshes the characters out somewhat
Tbf this show has covered issues of Renly and Loras more overtly and of course both Ellaria and Oberyn are overtly bisexual so the show is ah ‘dynamic’
As for Eunuch, it is a good way to personalise the topic in the books of Unsullied visiting brothels just to be held, eg the notion of companionship aspect of relationships etc which is good in a world where as we can see a lot of marriages are part of political machinations and facilitating lineages through sex (see Tywin to Tyrion re Sansa), so the notion of a sexless relationship (well penetrative sex anyway) is a useful contrast to explore, especially in context of them both being free of the former social norms that would have made a relationship impossible so it is useful to explore how they navigate their newly found freedom and what it means. And that’s without going into the “colour” issue
Same with Dany to a degreewho as Natalhie says was basically traded in a power play, and she is being told in season 2 she ‘has’ to re-marry
As for colour, it would have been great to see Benerro or Moqorro, that’s who I thought that new actor was but turns out he is just a slaver. This would have been useful as it is a contrast (both gender and race wise) to the High Sparrow and Melisandre.
Introducing Benerro and High Sparrow at the same time would have been a great way to introduce Planetos religious fundamentalism in both the West and East but oh well, think the eastern storyline will be complicated enough with introducing the Brazen Harpy’s with the Gold Masks
Wimsey,
totally agree. she’s going to be centrifugal in some very elaborate ways, i feel. Thank goodness the show is so lucky to have the most talented Sansa imaginable.
Yung Wolf,
Count me among those who enjoy the Missandei – Grey Worm relationship. It does add depth to the Meereen storyline which, IMO, is badly needed. It also gives Natalie Emmanuel and Jacob Anderson an opportunity to act…to do more than just repeat the same sort of lines over and over.
Ghost’s Lunch,
Some tidbits in here. Kit interview.
http://www.goldderby.com/news/8494/kit-harington-interview-how-to-train-your-dragon-2-game-of-thrones-entertainment-13579086-story.html
Greenjones,
Glad to hear he’s had a lot of scenes with Stephen this year !
Greenjones,
Jon will have many scenes with Stannis? Awesome, that makes the stuff that happens in SoS and ADwD so much more likely to happen on screen.
Those Stannis-Jon scenes were some of my favourites in SoS and aDwD.
What really is important is a backdrop for dynamically developing Sansa. OK, she’s acted (for the first time) like she has any clue how the world really works, and she has recast her outward persona. Those are big first steps, but (nevertheless) first steps.
The Vale is as good a place as any for doing that. GRRM probably will do the same: remember, he still has the same task in front of him, at least insofar as where he left Sansa in Crows. Yes, Sansa had decided that
However, that is the “primordial soup”: we need to see life spark! (Hey, it’s Darwin’s Day, so I couldn’t resist!)
Wimsey,
I was talking more about plot than story, but know that I agree with you completely. Just as the Dorne plot will serve as a backdrop for developing Jaime (and probably Bronn and Ellaria) and for getting to know Doran, the Sand Snakes and Areo, the Vale plot will be a tool for Sansa’s development. However, as for what that “plot” will exactly entail in the show… I have absolutely no idea.
Yung Wolf,
The Missandei / Grey Worm stuff (or Grey Mist as I like to call it) is easily one one my favourite show additions. You are under no obligation to like it yourself but please don’t attempt to speak for everyone because many of us disagree as the multiple comments responding to you prove.
Of the Night,
Woah. Grey Mist. That’s an awesome name for the relationship.
I don’t know if it’s one of my favorite show additions or changes, but it may well be on the TOP 10. I may have to think about it.
Luka Nieto,
Well it’s not number one for me either (that would be Brienne vs the Hound) but it’s pretty high.
Also I’m glad you like the name. I hope it catches on.
I am expecting that we will get our first real taste of Winter here. And that means that we are all “non-readers.” At any rate, we’ll get what Sansa does before
“I care about whatever it is bookreaders are whining about today” said no one ever.
Turncloak,
I don’t see how, when Sansa has nothing in common with the latter character and could never take his place. Could we, for once, stop trying to shove Sansa into every other character’s role, as if she doesn’t have her own?
When I read that comment, I thought that we can now expect fans to start overthinking Sophie’s comment and hypothesizing that it comes from some inside knowledge about the future storylines, because that’s what fandom does, even though 1) the chances of her knowing anything about the future plot points from unreleased books is miniscule, 2) even if she knew anything, she sure wouldn’t be revealing it in interviews – she would be required to be tight-lipped. I think it’s clear it’s just her giving her opinion (presumably going by the fact that Dany thinks of the Starks, or at least Ned, as enemies of her family, and Sophie generally thinking that dragons are dangerous, which she’s stated), same way that actors are asked to comment on “who would you like to sit the Iron Throne.
lol,
Haha,you gave the final wreck to that guy,i don’t think he will respond more considering the ownage .
Does anyone else think that picture makes it look like Sansa’s…I don’t really know how to put it…but “guarding” her belly in a vaguely pregnant kind of way? I mean, she doesn’t look pregnant particularly, but something about the clothing and also how her arm is positioned.
Admittedly, it’s probably a shot taken while she’s moving (or about to move) her hand, but yeah–just a weird theory.
It seems that people are assuming that the show is going to put Sansa on some non-book excursion in order to kill time while they wait for whatever she does in Winter. However, B&W know the general character arcs, the general story lines and the general plot lines for Winter and Spring. It seems more sensible to assume that they are having Sansa begin the long-overdue dynamic development that almost certainly will come in her Winter storyline, and that might be necessary for people to easily buy whatever she does in Winter. After all, the YG bomb is going to hit and that will probably be the core plot-device for much of the story in Winter. The girl that went into the Eyrie is not going to be fit for that: so, they (and GRRM) need to evolve her into a character that is. We have gotten the building blocks (more so on TV than in the books, but nevertheless in both): so, now is the time to start stacking them. The Vale is as good a place as any in which to do that.
Yeah, it kind of does. It also makes it look like she’s just eaten a large meal and is patting her stomach in satisfaction. Also, Littlefinger’s hands are set up so it looks like he’s urinating: or worse! When you take stills of moving people, their hands often look like they are doing something very different than they are.
Those Grey Worm and Missandei scenes in S4 were horrible. Prime examples of why D & D should not deviate.
Wimsey,
You can explain this till Kingdom come, but the fact is, some Sansa fans apparently want Sansa to remain a perpetual “Damsel in Distress” and sit there on her pretty ‘innocent’ *** waiting for someone (most likely the Hound) to “rescue” her so they can run off and live happily ever after. *Rolls eyes* The very THOUGHT of character development (in a way that doesn’t fit their preconceived notion of how Sansa SHOULD develop) gets them all huffy and puffy. I wish GRRM would have finished Winds so they could read from HIM how her character goes where it looks like it’s going; instead of trying to pawn it off as some fanfic filler of D&D.
Al Swearengen,
Don’t worry, I’ll enjoy them on your behalf.
I thought they were beautiful scenes. The one during the siege, in “Oathkeeper,” when he’s learning the common tongue from her, and they share their childhood memories, or lack thereof. It’s also one of the few moments you get to truly understand why exactly the Unsullied follow Daenerys so fervently (the first being Grey Worm’s introduction in “Kissed by Fire.” Also, I love their last scene together in “The Mountain and the Viper.” Beautiful, organic scenes that open a window into these otherwise secondary characters.
I hope we see something similarly engaging and rewarding for the character of Barristan this coming season. He’s been too much in the background in the last few season, often little more than a featured extra. The leaked script summary does confirm she will have his famous ADWD conversation with Dany, in which he tells her the truth about her father, so it seems they will go in that direction.
Luka Nieto,
BTW, Stella McCusker’s been deleted from the IMDB for 508 as the fan-edit role and is now in 503 as “old woman”, which seems much more fitting.
RosanaZugey,
What is moderately amusing about people hoping that Sansa will fulfill one of the most anti-feminist of roles is that GRRM might be putting her on an extremely feminist one. My suspicion now is that Sansa is the “stupid duckling” in contrast to the many “ugly duckling” arcs that exist (including, perhaps, with Arya). Sure, we’ve seen it many times before that brainy, self-competent but plain girls can wind up pretty: but how often have we seen that the beautiful but empty-headed girl winds up intelligent in the end? Insofar as I’ve read (and that is quite a lot!), this could be a first. The only possible exception of which I can think is Daeny in the first book: and it that case it is possible that Daeny was always mentally competent, but simply ignored.
That would be cool: in a lot of ways, that could help fuel Daeny’s story quite a bit. Let’s hope that it works: that’s always a risk with dialogue!
Greenjones,
The old woman Brienne meets, I guess?
Luka Nieto,
I don’t think so. That’s supposed to be a multi-episode part.
Greenjones,
Oh, you’re right. My mistake.
RosanaZugey,
The “saving” part is more internet jibjab than anything else, imho. I believe Sansa has more than enough opportunity for development and interaction in the riverlands, Vale and the Neck. I have confidence in her prospects. She does not need to be attached to any other major thread (northern or southern) at this point. In fact, I think the rumor of her escalation in “power” and relevance to the other threads will be more exciting to witness than having her play subordinate (or a sudden Malevolent) to another. I would like to see her continue to assert herself to LF though, in her own unique way, and maybe twist things so that she uses him instead of vice-versa.
Well, it’s all Internet jib jab, isn’t it? I mean, it’s not like people sit around at the local pubs and talk about this…. 🙂
Seriously, there has been (going back to the late 1990’s) a contingent of fans who hold to the “Virgin Sansa” model: not so much that she’ll never have sex, but that she represents goodness and purity, and that this is somehow what will win in the end when Sansa making the people love her carries the day. (Because Karma is a long con in GRRM’s worlds, I guess!)
These people seem to very much dislike the idea that Sansa is evolving into someone who could play the Game according to the tactics and rules necessary to win the Game, at least insofar as we have seen. At least historically, many of these fans were also ones that decried Daeny and even Arya as “pushy” or “self-righteous,” etc. That GRRM might not be writing a morality tale about how “good” girls win in the end seems to be off of their radar.
Wimsey,
By the way, Wimsey, Elio & Linda have said that “some very interesting things are going to be going on in the Vale.” They read at least a Sansa chapter, so they know what they are talking about.
I just don’t think the show’s gonna ignore it just because the books haven’t caught up with the pace of the TV series. Sure, the show may expand her early TWOW material to fit a whole season instead of just a few episodes, since her storyline simply cannot get too far ahead of everyone else’s, but even then there’s bound to be TWOW spoilers of some kind, especially by the end of the season, whether we are aware of it or not. And that awareness or lack thereof is kind of the point, isn’t it? Unfortunately for those who decry D&D’s so-called “fan fiction”, it will be difficult for them to differentiate it from material that is adapted directly from TWOW.
Wimsey,
The exact thing Elio & Linda clarified about the Sansa chapter is that the controversy involves a “surprising character development” than any kind of shocking events. They say it will “surprise hardcore fans who have certain views of Sansa.” So I’m pretty sure you’re right on point —whatever this development turns out to be, it may surprise those who hold her as an icon of purity and incorruptible goodness.
I think that it will be especially difficult for those fans who are hoping that Maleficent Stark is not the direction in which Sansa is headed. We saw something similar with the Harry Potter films: fans hoping that particular things would happen in the last couple of books were very upset when the movies up to that point did not include include key characters or items in their schemes. However, to them, this was evidence that Kloves and Heymen had no idea what the “real” story was, not that Rowling had confirmed that these characters/details were not important in the end.
Wimsey,
What Elio & Linda clarified about the Sansa chapter is that the controversy involves a “surprising character development” rather than any kind of shocking event. They say it will “surprise hardcore fans who have certain views of Sansa.” So I’m pretty sure you’re right —whatever this development turns out to be, it may surprise those who hold her as an icon of purity and incorruptible goodness.
Damn it, she ate Sweetrobin.
hola,
To be fair, he shouldn’t have eaten all the lemoncakes. You eat all the lemoncakes, Sansa eats you. That’s how it works.
Jesterr223456,
“I totally love boring, unimaginative love stories between a eunuch and a handmaiden taking up precious screen time in my GoT episodes!” said everyone with an IQ similar to room temperature.
Anyone defending the Missandei/Grey Worm arc have to be unsullied. It isn’t about being a book reader, it’s about the scenes detracting from the quality of the show. It’s a pointless, boring, uninteresting sub-plot.
So… how’s that working out for you?
Luka Nieto,
Well at least Sansa can be bffs with the Thenns now. We all know how hard is to find a true friend in Westeros.
Yung Wolf,
Actually, most of the people defending it are book fans. There is nothing wrong with giving them a couple of short scenes fleshing them out as actual people and not just cardboard pieces for Dany to talk to.
Yung Wolf,
I will say this, it’s been better than Robb’s love story in Season 2 and 3 (which isn’t saying much, but I wouldn’t get hot and bothered about it).
Dogs,
That was somewhat boring, but not as boring as this. At least it revolved around the evolution of a major character and was actually meant to happen.
This doesn’t make sense. If people defending it “have to be unsullied”, then this necessarily is about whether or not one is a book reader, at least partially.
Uh…pretty good?
Luka Nieto,
Ok, I say to GRRM…surprise me, shock me, quench my frickin’ Sansa thirst. We’ve been waiting for 10 years for a Sansa/Alayne development. Surprise me, shock me….anything.
(Maybe a preview Sansa chapter before S5, like he did with Mercy last year….pretty please…?)
jjp,
I was referring to myself and replying to prior comments.
Yes, I read the books. No, it’s not why I dislike the Missandei/Grey Worm plot. I can see why casual show viewers would defend it.
And there is the crux of your issue. You denied it in your next post, but it is obviously a big part of your problem with this minor storyline. You would get along well with Al Swearengen, at least he is honest about why he hates D&D’s decisions.
Now you’re reaching.
I have never seen so many rush to the defense of this arc. Ever.
This is actually funny at this point.
Yung Wolf,
I’m defending it because it takes up so little time and I understand why it is being done. Is it my favorite? No. But it is harmless and is not nearly as bad as you and Swedgin make it out to be. Someone up thread mentioned Robb and Talisa being worse and I agree. Robb and Talisa sucked up way more screen time and was much more boring. The scenes between those two remain my least favorite in the show. GW and Missandei is D&D utilizing a heartbreaking story from the books about the Unsullied who went to a brothel just to be held and feel some sort of companionship and expanding on the subject. If they commit a lot more time to it, I will criticize, but if they keep it to a few short scenes, I won’t have a problem.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
I loved Robb and Talisa cuz Talisa was sexy as hell and I was like well if i was robb id definitely break off an alliance for that. Besides it was arguably the most critical moment of the story because it led to the red wedding and everything that followed. Greyworm missandei isnt leading to anything plot wise because they are background characters, hell it wont even lead to anything sexual to fill the hbo quota for obvious reasons.
Elio and Linda have been pretty dismissive of “Maleficent Stark” as not having anything to do with the chapter they’ve read.
Crabber’s Son,
That’s all fine, but the writing for the Robb and Talisa scenes was sub-par, IMO, including GRRM’s episode, and I feel like it was over the top sappiness, meant to drive the knife deeper when the Red Wedding happened. There was nothing unique about the Robb and Talisa relationship in the show. It was a prototypical love story. Was it an important plot point? Of course, but the way it was written was weak. Also, how do you know Grey Worm and Missandei’s relationship isn’t leading to something? Grey Worm seems like the type of character D&D like to kill off. If he dies in the show, the audience now has more of a reason to grieve for him, because he was a more developed character. In this way, the relationship would be similar to Robb and Talisa, only much more unique.
Is that in Kelvin?
It was an important story and character development point, too. Once they decided to make Robb Stark a lead character rather than a supporting one (as he is in the books), this sort of change became very necessary. Had Robb been a protagonist in the books, then it would have been very different there, too.
Wimsey,
A while back, GRRM made a comment that if he could, he would create a few Robb PoV chapters, supposedly to give insight into JW and his other suspect decisions in ACoK (as a 17-yr old KotN and battle commander). I guess I could see the drastic steps leading to the RW being fleshed out a bit more than simply thru Cat’s PoV.
GRRM obviously has some more left to say on the matter since TWoW will include JW in the prologue,
The Hound,
If you take all that out and just leave the dialogue it will become Downton Abbey, and no one wants that.
Hodor’s Bastard,
But even doing that in retrospect would not create the same thing: he’d be inserting narrative into an existing plot, rather than creating the plot and narrative around a story he was constructing. If Robb had been a protagonist, then he would almost have had to construct the scenario differently. Of course, if GRRM had made Robb a protagonist, then Robb certainly would have been quite a bit different, anyway: he likes intrinsically conflicted lead characters!
Wimsey,
I would have preferred knowing an internally-conflicted Robb rather than the internally-inept Quentyn, who really didn’t contribute anything more than hosting a barbeque for R&V. “The Dragontamer”…Hah!
I liked the Grey Worm/Missandei scenes. I understand why some people don’t. But I don’t get why they’re making such a big deal of it. Did they even take more than five minutes in this ten hours season?
Hodor’s Bastard,
heh, Quentyn was the only one of the new protagonists that I found at all engaging! His “kill the frog, become the Prince” storyline appealed to me, possibly because I find storylines stemming from futile attempts to live up to unrealistic parental expectations easy to follow.
That written, I am just as happy that they seemingly condensed him and Arianne into Trystane.
There are few scenes I skip when I rewatch:
1. Orson’s beetles. Instant mute.
2. Talisa’s introduction & marriage. Fast forward, fast forward!
3. Miss and Grey Worm. Read comments here.
As for book Sansa, sounds like she starts playing dirty.
Count me as another who enjoys the Missandei/Grey Worm story. As other have already said, it fills out the world around Dany, which could use some filling, imo, and gives us a real insight, again, imo, into characters who weren’t particularly fleshed out in the books, at least not in that way. We can look at Grey Worm and better understand all the Unsullied, not as slaves, not as soldiers, but as humans. I also really enjoy the work of the two actors portraying those characters in their scenes together. There’s so much going on beneath the surface, which, while it isn’t communicated in words, is still communicated so beautifully.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Yep. I like the scenes too. It helps that Nathalie Emmanuel is stunning…
Greenjones,
Yes, she is certainly stunningly beautiful. While that does make it very easy to understand how any man could be attracted to her, I think it also, to look at it simply, shows that just because Grey Worm is without his, uh, “pillar and stones,” he is not without eyes, nor without a heart, nor without human feelings. Part of what I find interesting about all of it is how it contrasts with Varys and his seeming asexuality.
Lol. That response was most unexpected!
And regarding Arianne, she can never be amalgamated!
While I do understand Quentyn’s arc – or rather what Martin intended with it – I still consider his chapters, and him personally, a narrative cul-de-sac; a solution to a problem that didn’t need to exist in the first place. Consider: if Martin’s plan is for Doran to abandon his original Dany alliance and opt for YG and JC, why introduce Quentyn and the whole Dany idea (an utterly absurd plan with 0 chance of success) in the first place? Why not make Doran a part of Varys’ scheme with the original marriage plan not involving Viserys and Arianne but YG and Arriane? It obviates the need for yet another new character, merges two essentially parallel plots into one, and makes Doran not look like the worst plotter in the history of plots.
Team Quentyn
Hodor’s Bastard,
Well, I enjoyed it: but I probably would have recommended cutting Quentyn if I’d been GRRM’s editor, and I certainly would have advised B&W not to include him! Taste is, after all, completely subjective, and my tastes are no less subjective than anybody else’s. At any rate, although I understood what GRRM was doing with Quentyn story wise and plot wise, I also completely agree with Mr Fixit: it’s just not necessary. And, let’s face it: if B&W cannot think of a simple, believable and cinematic way to have
, then they are in the wrong business!
Actually, it would have been inconsistent with the way that GRRM has developed Varys. Varys should want any Targaryen supporters remaining in Westeros to be plotting for Daeny: that keeps
Now, you are correct that it would have streamlined the literary plot: but I think that it makes more sense as it is.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Hey, Greyworm still has lips, a tongue and fingers.
Equally bad are those who are sure she must bang Littlefinger and others ASAP to be a “player” because she has nothing else to offer but what’s between her legs. She can’t have character development or become strong and interesting without LF’s penis. Even if, logically, that wouldn’t get her any benefits. Gods forbid she uses her intelligence and other qualities to ‘play the game’. Or, even greater shock, she prefers to have sex with someone because she is attracted to them and likes it, not because Wise Cersei thinks it’s woman’s best weapon.
I haven’t actually seen many people that you describe (maybe there are those who want her to be rescued by Sandor, but I don’t know them), but there are lots of the latter. Proponents of Virginal Sansa typically don’t like the idea of her and Sandor any more than the proponents of Political Hooker Sansa do (why would they? The idea of her actually liking sex or being in contact with someone she’s attracted to seems to terrify both groups the same).
Luka Nieto,
The fandom, whether it’s Sansa fans or Sansa haters or those who are more or less indifferent to her, have such disparate views of the character and her arc and future, that I can’t imagine any development that wouldn’t be controversial to some portion of fans.
But, since Elio has also said (in the Podcast of Ice and Fire a couple of years ago) that Sansa fans would find some enjoyment in the chapter (we now know it’s the same chapter, since they’ve only read one), I think that anyone who thinks it involves Sansa plotting Sweetrobin’s demise while laughing maniacally is going to be disappointed, since this is unlikely to be something he’d think Sansa fans would generally enjoy.
BTW, I find it funny that people go on about how Sansa fans see her as icon of purity if they don’t think she’ll start killing children and being super evil. Nobody is saying that Arya is an icon of purity because she’s only murdering awful people. How about Jon, is he an icon of purity? Sam? Davos? Brienne? I don’t understand why people think it’s obligatory for Sansa to be evil and kill innocents if she’s to develop as a character. With all of Arya’s darkness, for instance, she hasn’t started killing innocents or plotting the demise of children. There’s becoming darker and more morally ambiguous, something I expect from Sansa (and Bran, and I’d be happy if it happened with Jon, too), and then there’s wanting Sansa to become Ramsay 2.0.
Sure, sort of. Though I don’t think it really damages Varys’ character and his long-term planning in any significant way. His motivations are what Martin decides them to be, after all. And although Dany might be a welcome distraction which YG then swoops in and deals with, Varys wouldn’t like his backup plan getting too much traction with Westerosi nobles and interefering with his chosen ruler.
Anyway, Martin is a big fan of irony. I personally think it’d be a great turn of events if Doran supported his nephew from the outset, plotting for 15 years to have his revenge, not to mention justice for Elia in the form of her surviving son as king, only to have it crumble all around him (if YG is BF, that is). It would fit right in with Martin’s preferred themes: folly and futility of vengeance, be careful what you wish for, etc.
I do think this version of Doran’s plot would be more satisfying on pretty much every level – literary, narrative, character, and as a way to streamline things to a more manageable level.
Kit’s right, I don’t understand the demands and comments from some fans, I love the books but I love de show too, please ENJOY!. Can’t wait for Jon-Kit/Stannis-Stephen’s scenes. Sansa is amazing character!