It’s been over a year since we were forced to say “goodbye” to Missandei of Naath, but we certainly haven’t seen the last of Nathalie Emmanuel. In a recent interview, Emmanuel took a break from discussing her many upcoming projects to talk about Missandei, her on-set rapport with Emilia Clarke and why it’s important for shows to feature diverse casts.
Nathalie Emmanuel admitted in an interview Vogue that she still hasn’t watched the ending of Game of Thrones, though she is, of course, aware of its, eh, major plot points.
“I loosely know that [Dany] avenges her friend,” she said. “I’m not sure that Missandei had any idea what she started…”
Missandei in heaven like: pic.twitter.com/S3PGFx85WC
— Nathalie Emmanuel (@missnemmanuel) May 13, 2019
In all seriousness, Emmanuel knows how important Missandei was to fans, and pointed out that much of the anger surrounding Missandei’s death has to do with the fact that she was one of the very few characters of color on an overwhelming white show.
“I definitely understood beforehand what my role meant to people but the days after that episode really brought it home,” she said. “I loved that character, and I wish she had had a happy ending – but Westeros is this brutal, heartless world, so you have to keep that in mind. When it comes down to it, the backlash stems from the fact that, when there’s so few non-white characters on-screen, a death like that registers as a massive loss.”
Emmanuel said that she and Jacob Anderson often discussed the significance of their characters and the responsibility of playing the only major characters of color on a show of such magnitude. “We were always really conscious of how much our being part of Game of Thrones mattered to people. It made us really protective of Missandei and Grey Worm.”
“At the end of the day, if there’s ever a show on the level of Game of Thrones again, representation has to be part of the conversation from the beginning. That way, there’s no single person who has to represent every other person of colour.”
Emmanuel also discussed the challenges of being a woman on a “male-dominated set.”
“[I]n my first season, my costume was pretty revealing, and there was an incident with an extra who made a comment about it on set – I mean, typical – and Emilia straightaway had my back. It got handled.”
Indeed, Emilia and Nathalie bonded over being “the only girls” on set.
“Emilia and I got on like a house on fire from the beginning,” Emmanuel said. “When I joined the cast, she had already been shooting Game of Thrones for a few years, and she was definitely ready to have some female energy around her. She and I always looked out for each other.”
Many things!
I would also burn down a city for her <3
Nathalie Emmanuel admitted in an interview Vogue that she still hasn’t watched the ending of Game of Thrones, though she is, of course, aware of its, eh, major plot points.
“I loosely know that [Dany] avenges her friend,” she said…”
Dany avenged Missandei?
Uh… How so?
Cersei gave the order to behead Missandei.
Dany could have and should have flown directly to the Red Keep and vaporized Cersei. She didn’t.
FrankenGregor decapitated Missandei.
Sandor killed FrankenGregor.
Therefore, Sandor avenged Missandei.
Totally off topic, but Sophie Turner had a baby girl on the 22nd that she named Willa!
Very pretty name 🙂 The first time I ever heard the name ‘Willa’ was in the final episodes of Six Feet Under and I thought the name was pretty then too. Congratulations to them! 🙂
In reference to the article…
This was nice to read, especially with how uncomfortable being in this position would be and that this feeling could have made being on-set a continued unpleasant experience.
Adrianacandle,
I won’t be suprised if the fandom and media twist this into D&D having a toxic set. Ava Duvernay already accused them of racism because they killed a fictional character in a show known for killing characters. To add to the article I believe she has watched the show since the author said this interview wqs right after episode 4. She tweeted about episode 5 so I believe she saw it.
I can’t speak for the rest of the fandom but for my part, it sounds like this incident got handled when (I’m guessing) it was brought to their attention by EC so I’m pleased about that 🙂
Adrianacandle,
I agree it was handled so that should be viewed as a good thing.
I imagine Emilia would be terrifying when defending a friend. ❤
barb,
That’s great news.
This. Should’ve done it the moment she arrived in Westeros.
Willa’s a fine name. I can only think of the American Girl WellieWishers…
re: “D&D having a toxic set”…well, wouldn’t be remotely surprising, now that you mention it.
Came here to see the ignorant comments about a POC wanting diversity… I know that was a problem for some you previously
I’d like to hear your thoughts on diversity if you’re willing to share them. I’m not a POC, I don’t want to step on any toes, and it’s not something I plan on debating — I’m just interested in reading the thoughts and views of others on this topic, especially from those who are POC (or in other minority groups), so I can broaden my view on this and increase my own understanding (as well I can without having those first hand experiences myself).
Adrianacandle,
Well, when this episode in question first aired, ALOT of people of color (myself included) were upset that one of the only two POC died. Yes, the show had many deaths and many of them were white (because that was 95% of the cast), but why couldn’t the only characters that represented so many who loved the show live? I even remember coming here making comments about why, in a fake world, couldn’t there be more people of ANY color? Also, POC in power or main characters? And I was shocked when I was greeted with backlash and ignorance. I never knew there were so many close minded individuals on this forum. Which is one of the main reason why I don’t comment any more.
And as you can see, it didn’t take long to swing the conversation to Sophie and Emilia. This article isn’t about them.
Raenarys,
Thanks for sharing your views on this, I think this helps better my own understanding.
For my part, when I included Emilia and Sophie in my comments, this was me commenting on things I feel I can comment on (Nathalie talking about the challenges of being a woman on a male-dominated set since I’m a woman too and can kind of relate to that in a sense, Emilia sticking up for her, liking the name Sophie picked out for her baby) since I’ve never had (or can have) the experience of a POC. With a POC’s experience, I am ignorant and this is why I think it’s important for me to spend time listening to POC and their thoughts and views on topics like this to better my own understanding.
If you have any tips for me on how to go forward with topics like this, I’d welcome them 🙂
Adrianacandle,
You’re right. It does mention their friendship, so truly you’re not off topic. But I just can’t help but notice that the comments are “Emilia is such a good friend! Good thing she stood up for her and got it handled!” instead of “why did it take Emilia saying something to get it handled? Did they not believe Nathalie or did she not feel comfortable mentioning/bringing it up herself?” IDK. That’s just where my mind goes. POC think this way, especially in a work setting. Our white counterparts are believed and taken seriously more than we are. I don’t mean to be a damper, and I do appreciate you for taking the time to listen to me.
This is helpful for me to read! The questions you’ve raised are ones I didn’t think of — and it’s helpful for me to know where a POC is coming from. I did think Emilia was being a great friend and without knowing what happened, I also wondered if it was a matter of Emilia’s support being helpful to Nathalie because at this time (season 3?), Emilia was a leading star on the show while Nathalie was new — because that’s a mindset I can relate to since I’ve been in that situation myself. But maybe that’s assumptive and missing some crucial things, like the questions you brought up from a POC’s perspective.
For me, the points you raise do provide valuable insight and are ones that I’ll keep in mind for the future so thank-you for explaining 🙂
Raenarys,
Where are the ignorant comments you’re referring to?
Mr Derp,
Oh give it time! There was such an issue with this group last time diversity was brought up.
Raenarys,
Lol, yea I know what you mean. Let’s just try to keep things positive and keep an open mind and maybe others will follow suit. I welcome differing viewpoints as long as it’s respectful and comes from a good place. So far, everything seems to be fine here.
Mr Derp,
I agree 100%. I promise I’ll be on my best behavior. 🙂
Missandei 💔😭
Raenarys,
”I never knew there were so many close minded individuals on this forum. Which is one of the main reason why I don’t comment any more.”
Please reconsider refraining from commenting. As aggravating as it may be, one way to open the hearts and minds of close-minded individuals is to engage with them. Otherwise, they’ll just listen to themselves nattering in their own echo chamber.
Raenarys,
It’s not close minded to point out GOT is notorious for killing characters. Maybe we should ask George why he wrote almost all white characters in his book. Does there need to be more POC leads yes but complaining about a character dying in GOT is a bit much and Ava Duvernay accuses D&D of being racist is way over the top.
Shelle,
There is zero evidence D&D ran a toxic set. From all accounts especially with the child actors they had an extremely safe set. I know the fandom and media is always frothing at the mouth to attack D&D and it’s ridiculous. All the piece of shit showrunners that were revealed during meetoo and D&D weren’t apart of any of that.
She died because the story demanded it. If the writers had said “well Nathalie Emmanuel is a POC so we can’t kill her character”, that would have been extremely weird in my opinion, not to mention poor writing.
As for POC in power, I can name a couple. Xaro Xhoan Daxos, one of the rulers of Qarth, and Hizdahr Zo Loraq, who helped Dany rule Meereen. Obviously Grey Worm was also fairly powerful as the leader of the world’s most formidable army.
And we had Salladhor Saan who we unfortunately didn’t see much of, but was a fantastic character with a wonderful actor.
And I’d also like to mention that Salladhor Saan, Xaro, and Areo Hotah are all white in the books, yet were cast as black in the show. So it’s unfair to act like there was no diversity.
As for major characters, well that’s just the source material. Most of the story is based in Westeros, and when GRRM created Westeros he tried to base it on Medieval Europe, with noble families as protagonists.
The noble families of Medieval Europe were almost entirely comprised of white people. It just wouldn’t have made a lot of sense to cast Starks or Lannisters or Baratheons as black given how GRRM wrote the world.
If D&D had done that they’d have had to re-conceptualize a lot of the history and culture of the world GRRM created.
As for your last point about Sophie and Emilia, I fail to see a problem. Emilia is being discussed because Nathalie mentioned her several times in the interview, and Sophie just became a mom. Are people not allowed to talk about that ?
If one goes looking for bigotry everywhere one may find it where it doesn’t exist.
Fireblood87,
Was the complaint actually to do with Natalie’s ethnicity or was it more sexual harassment generally because of the costume (which to be fair she didn’t choose)? Things like that don’t happen to me now that I’m an old trout and retired but I sometimes had silliness to put up with when I was in my younger years and I wasn’t a film star or anything and I’m a very pale pink person who goes a lovely shade of lobster if I catch too much sun. BTW I’m not saying that all men are predators either.
Given that ASOIAF is very loosely based on the English War of the Roses (or should I say English and Welsh?) I don’t think there would have been a great many people of colour in the land then. I’m not saying there wouldn’t have been any. England was a maritime nation so ships visiting there could have had sailors from Africa – I don’t know much about the numbers of sub-Saharan Africans who migrated to the part of Africa abutting the Mediterranean Sea over the years but I would imagine there would have been some and who is to say none of them ever got work on a ship that made it to England and had a ravy night out with a local girl in an English port.
Raenarys,
I’ll try to be courteous. On a forum such as this there is always a fine line to be drawn between people expressing an opinion in a healthy way without having to tread on eggshells and ‘dissing’ other peoples’ views. When the BBC’s ‘Merlin’ was aired I remember there were mixed feelings about Angel Coulby whose parentage is English/Guyanese playing Guinevere. I liked her portrayal (though ‘gwyn’ is Welsh for white) and always thought, well it was Dark Ages Britain and maybe some Roman soldiers from the African part of the Roman Empire could have married British ladies. Many years ago in a work situation a colleague said to me about something I said that if he hadn’t known me as a person he would have thought I was racist. We never really knew what happened to Sallador Sahn in the TV show – he’s still missing in action in the books (though he is white there).
I didn’t get my undies in a knot about a lady of part-Indian descent being cast as Yennefer in “The Witcher” like some folk did – nor about some of the young protagonists in “The Wheel of Time” being played by people of colour. I’m more concerned that people have the acting chops. That said, I couldn’t see a white actor playing Mr Anansi in “American Gods”.
I like to think that there has been some progress since the days when old-time Hollywood star Merle Oberon pretended that her mum was a servant because she (MO) was Anglo-Indian. I saw an episode a few years ago of “Who do You Think You Are” where the actor Rupert Penry-Jones had been told that there was an Indian connection in his family a long way back and the programme revealed that to be true. Emilia Clarke has an Indian connection in her family though it is a long way back. Unfortunately the link I had about that won’t post.
Ten Bears,
I agree it’s sensible to keep dialogue going as far as possible. I seem to be out of the loop about some things and I was surprised to learn about the T*rf wars on Twitter (I don’t have Twitter myself). Elsewhere on the internet I typed something about well perhaps women who have been raped might feel intimidated if they have to share toilets with transwomen (and I’m not saying all transwomen are predators). My comment was treated with opprobrium by some people. Anyone can make a mistake – I went into a gents’ (men’s room) by mistake once – mind you I came out pretty quickly. Some women who have said quite mild things on Twitter expressing on the trans people in ladies’ loos have been slung off Twitter. I didn’t even know what a T*rf was, I had to google it. Who knows, I could have been in the loo (not the same cubicle!!!!) with a trans person without realising it. I think it’s better that dialogue is kept open – cis ladies who have a concern can express their worries and trans ladies can argue their case and say they are not all like Jessica Y*niv etc. Sorry, that’s a different issue to racial discrimination.
I’ve just re-read my previous comment addressed to Rhaenerys and on reflection the first sentence doesn’t read awfully well but I’m out of time to edit it. It could sound as if I was being snarky though that was not my intent. It would have been better as if I had said something about trying to not be discourteous to anyone – which is what I aim for in general on this site though I might bite back (metaphorically) if someone trolled me.
Ten Bears,
You’re not wrong at all. I shouldn’t hold back just because others don’t see things the way I do. That’s the perfect teaching/learning opportunity. Thank you for being you.
Fireblood87,
I never once mention Ava. Not sure why you brought her up in response to my comment?
Dame of Mercia,
I think what set me off was a previous post on this forum. How most of the commenters had such an issue with POC being upset that Missandei was killed. I didn’t understand why it was such a big deal for people of color to be represented. Hypothetically, could you imagine ONLY seeing POC on tv? Only our stories being told? With just a splash of whites here and there? Wouldn’t you feel misrepresented? Clearly, I am the minority here so I know my views won’t be shared or understood. I’m just trying to shed some light here.
It can be a very difficult conversation to have. There’s a lot of walking the line and you almost have to walk on eggshells in order to avoid offending someone.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me, it’s about equality. If the white characters die all the time, then it’s perfectly normal and fair for the black characters to die. That’s what equality is. Treat everyone the same. In my opinion, requiring every character of color to survive is the opposite of equality. It’s favoritism, which is something we should always steer clear from, regardless of color.
On the other hand, I think I can understand where you are coming from. There’s not much representation, so when one of the few POC characters dies it feels like a bigger deal than when one of the white characters dies.
It’s just that, for me, Missandei’s death had everything to do with story and nothing at all to do with color or race, so to me, this is a non-issue.
I tried to edit my last comment while I was still typing and see I left in an awkward bit of wording “expressing on the” – I obviously didn’t read through my comment attentively enough before pressing the Post button.
Now I don’t know what the heck happened with my comment above. It has posted as ‘Left’. I have requested a deletion. I wonder if my cursor jumped – which it can sometimes on the laptop. I had noticed that the wording “expressing on the” in an earlier comment was very clumsy.
Missandei didn’t do too badly pertaining to longevity in the season – she made it to the fourth episode of the last season. She lived longer than Jorah, little Lady Mormont or Theon. Technically those three characters were included in the beginning of episode 4 but they were corpses by then. I found Missandei’s death very saddening and a reminder that war isn’t fair and good people can die/be killed as well as evil ones. I’m not a person who has read the books over and over again but from memory there was a female sex worker in Kings Landing in the book from the Summer Islands. In the books it was she who Cersei had whipped believing her to be Tyrion’s secret girlfriend rather than red-headed Ros. Again from memory there was a prince in Kings Landing who was a person of colour though I can’t remember where he came from. One lady I know started writing the names of characters on a piece of paper when she was reading GoT and it soon became more than one piece of paper.
Actually I’ve realised that my comment erroneously posted as ‘left’ has wording that it is awaiting moderation so it’s probably not showing up and as I say I’ve asked for it to be deleted anyway.
Now that I think of it, were there any Asian characters in GoT?
I can think of one, the Red Priestess in season 5 that gave Tyrion a strange look.
It’s interesting that there isn’t a lot of backlash over a lack of Asian characters.
Mr Derp,
Personally, I’m not Asian, so I don’t speak up on Asian representation. Much like how you are not black, so you don’t speak up or notice when black people aren’t represented.
I guess I can give the same arguments you all are giving as to why there are barely any black people on the show. POC just aren’t needed or thought of in fantasy type shows, sadly. Or people try to justify it by saying “oh well this extremely minor character was black.” Or “this character was white in the book, and they’re a POC in the show… they die, but still!”
Or maybe you’re hinting that I should be more Asian and stop complaining huh? Lol, jk.
This is a perfect example as to why this is an impossible conversation to have.
What makes you think I don’t speak up when I think something is wrong? This really is a completely random assumption, and, to be honest, is a little bit insulting.
To me, representation is important for every group of people. Not just one group of people. Yes, there was very little representation of Black people in Got, but the same goes for people of Asian descent. If you care as much about representation as I think you do, then you should speak up for everyone whose not being represented. Right?
I haven’t seen anyone make this argument. Let’s try to avoid hyperbolic and untrue statements. That will make this conversation a lot easier and more productive.
Yes! That Volantis street Priestess was (the criminally underused) Rila Fukushima. She co-starred with Hugh Jackman in “The Wolverine,” and I thought she stole the show.
Here’s a short clip of Rila Fukushima from
“The Wolverine” (2013):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSBIvvFl7CA
Along with Ania Bukstein as Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara, I had hoped to see more of these two actresses beyond their one-off appearances.
Ten Bears,
Yea, I was expecting something to come from the strange look she gave Tyrion in the one scene she was in, but nothing ever did. I guess it was supposed to foreshadow trouble between Tyrion and Dany later on? I honestly don’t really know what I was supposed to take from that scene.
I enjoyed that scene with Kinvara too and was also hoping for more from her. I don’t think she was one of those characters that the plot technically “needed” anymore after her first appearence, but then again, I’m not so sure how “necessary” her scene was in the first place. Either way, I thought she was great.
Mr Derp,
My tinfoil speculation? The whole greyscale story line had been set up starting in S5 to be a major factor in the endgame (for example, a raging pandemic decimating the population from the south while the ice zombies threaten annihilation from the north). Presumably, show! Jorah – (merged with book! character (Connington?) – would be Patient Zero, spreading the contagious disease upon making landfall in Westeros. The showrunners roughly traced the greyscale set up in the published books, expecting there to be a big payoff or big reveal in the upcoming book(s).
However, the showrunners ultimately jettisoned the greyscale storyline because Big George left them hanging.
That, to me, is why the greyscale threat amounted to: Jorah got sick. Jorah got better. The End.
The entire greyscale side story could’ve been excised (e.g., Shireen’s affliction, the Stone Men ambushing Tyrion and Jorah sailing past Old Valyria. Jorah contracting greyscale, the Volantis street preacher’s speech about the Lord of Light helping the Stone Men, Sam finding an esoteric debridement procedure to successfully treat Jorah – but nobody else, and then Jorah returning infection-free to Dany on Dragonstone, etc.) without impacting the story one bit.
I’ll have to leave it up to book readers why Big G would have a greyscale-infected character arrive on the continent while concealing his infection with a highly contagious disease – if the contagion will just magically disappear, or Patient Zero will somehow be cured before spreading the disease to anyone else.
As Chekhov might say: “Why bother hanging the gun if it’s not going to be fired?” Similarly, as Stephen King might say: ”If this detail is not going to go anywhere or mean anything, excise it as superfluous.”
That’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it unless and until the Big Kahuna proves me wrong. 🤷🏻♂️
Ten Bears,
That’s a good point. There really wasn’t much of a purpose for Jorah to have Greyscale other than to have him meet Sam, which ultimately led to Sam giving Jorah Heartsbane later on. Although, that didn’t really go anywhere either, so, who knows, maybe you’re right?
Ten Bears,
Should have left the torso greyscale in place for S8E3. 😭
Jessica Henwick (Nymeria Sand) is of Chinese and Zambian descent. However, that’s the actress, not the character.
Mr Derp,
Good point about Heartsbane. Sam giving it to Jorah really didn’t go anywhere (eg no WW kills with it).*
For that matter, Sam stealing the family sword on his way out of Horn Hill didn’t go anywhere either: if his grumpy dad was enraged, we never saw it; Randyll never went after Sam to get it back; and Randyll got vaporized anyway. (Not that a VS sword would have saved him.)
* Come to think of it, Jorah’s S7e6 speech to Jon (after declining Jon’s offer to return Longclaw) telling Jon the sword was his to pass along to his children and his children’s children… didn’t go anywhere either. Jon never knocked up Dany despite the hints in S7e7 about her “un-infertility,” and Tyrion pressuring her about the importance of having an heir.
If Jon’s supposed to end up back with the NW, then he’s sworn not to take a wife or have children.
So Jorah expressing his intention that Jon keep Longclaw to be passed along to his children and his children’s children… was a nice moment but ultimately, a useless gesture.
——-
Maybe GRRM’s got something up his sleeve with all of the ancestral VS swords floating around. The show assembled them all at WF for the big Zombie showdown, and put them in the hands of experienced sword fighters (Jon, Brienne, Jorah, and Jaime) … yet I don’t recall any of those swordfighters pulverizing any WWs with their VS swords.
(Leave it up to Arya and her little VS dagger to get the job done.)
Raenarys,
Diversity ship in terms of GoT sailed off in 2009 when they decided to follow the books in casting and the books were written in 90s when people just didn’t care about diversity.
Major characters and families were set up with S1 and then the rest of the show could only follow that.
Missandei’s death served important purpose, and it’s an honour for a character to die in GoT.
Ten Bears,
With greyscale, I think it might have been setting up something that the show may not have had time to cover. In the books, I think you’re right that this aspect of Jorah was merged with the book-only character of Jon Connington who is infected with greyscale.
JonCon is very fearful of people finding out about his disease, noting that it can make even the closest of friends turn on each other:
The wildlings believe that sufferers of greyscale should be euthanized to prevent spread and protect everyone else in the community, with Val considering death a “mercy” for Shireen when she meets her:
Which seems to shake Jon’s belief that the Westerosi maester belief that greyscale can be cured in children.
In response to your theory, that may very well be. Not only that quote from JonCon in which he dwells that greyscale could make a friend turn on a friend, Pycelle remembers this in one of Jaime’s chapters:
There are also theories there may be a connection between wights (ice zombies) and stone men (stone zombies). Tyrion has this description of how greyscale spreads in the body:
And Val tells Jon that they grey death sleeps, only to wake again, which sounds like the part in the Azor Ahai prophecy (“waking dragons from stone”). Or it sounds like the potential of greyscale to erupt from dormancy to spread.
In the brief (2 minute) video below covering greyscale, Alt Shift X notes that greyscale turns somebody into a dying person with nothing to lose (and he also touches upon the ice zombie/stone zombie connection):
Adrianacandle,
Typo!
*Which seems to shake Jon’s belief *in the Westerosi maester belief that greyscale *is not fatal in children.
Raenarys,
Raenarys,
I was just using an example of someone with a huge platfrom accusing two people of being racist simply because they killed a fictional character. You should have seen how many media outlets called them racist for simply killing a character. Representation matters but if as a society we have gone so far as to accuse a creator of being racist for simply killing a fictional character we have gone too far.
Adrianacandle,
”With greyscale, I think it might have been setting up something that the show may not have had time to cover…
Right, except that with screen time at a premium in the books-to-show adaptation, the showrunners would have ditched the whole greyscale storyline to begin with if they didn’t have time to flesh it out.
To continue with my tinfoil supposition, let me suggest that the showrunners believed greyscale would prove to be important enough that they had to include the setup, and they must have concluded they could not simply jettison the whole storyline as insignificant world-building minutiae or as self-indulgent window-dressing by the Big Kahuna.
The show didn’t have the luxury of meandering down side roads for the hell of it and exploring backstories the way the author could. In theory if not in practice, a scriptwriter adapting a voluminous novel or novels should be like a competent book editor paring down the author’s distracting rhetorical flourishes or condensing long-winded sentences (or to try it another way, the scriptwriter should be like a zealous butcher on steroids: slashing and cutting the gristle and trimming off the fat until only the “meat” remains). Sorry if these comparisons are inappropriate… What I’m getting at is that retaining the greyscale story line signified to me that the showrunners were led to believe it would be significant down the road, and there would be a big payoff for the time spent on the setup.
The book excerpts you quoted (and thank you for doing so!) suggest to me that greyscale is going to loom large in the books. Unless it magically disappears, or Jon Connington thinks he’ll be fine if he can get his hands on a stockpile of hydroxychloroquine, there surely had to be a reason why GRRM brought a Patient Zero to Westeros, and went out of his way to illustrate how some segments of society treated the afflicted worse than lepers (e.g., prejudices against victims as “unclean” or as good as dead; and fearful folks‘ preferred solution is to kill the infected). Connington suddenly finding a miracle cure would render all that setup …a waste of pages, wouldn’t it?
[More farfetched speculation on my part]: GRRM had a big twist in mind but hadn’t worked out all the intricacies yet by the time the show was about to pass the books, leaving the showrunners out on a limb: They had already laid out the setup roughly as GRRM designed it, but when the time came they weren’t provided the payoff.
It just felt to me as if the abrupt resolution of Jorah’s greyscale – and the subsequent absence of any mention of greyscale or Stone Men from any of the show’s storylines – represented the showrunners’ decision to pull the plug on “greyscale” rather than try to cobble together their own continuation and conclusion.
Does any of this make sense? 🤥
Ten Bears,
I wonder… if greyscale was meant to be another issue Westeros had to contend with, which I think is a pretty viable theory, D&D may have decided to apply some Adaptation Distillation and eliminated greyscale as a large-scale threat altogether in order to streamline the final arc into the limited hours a television series provides (as they’ve already done from seasons 1-5, especially in 5). I think a greyscale plague would be a pretty complicated thing to cover SFX and storywise — but can you imagine if season 8 were airing now and a greyscale plague was a thing Westeros had to deal with in the midst of this covid pandemic…? 🙂
Or the greyscale story stopping with Jorah being cured could have been as the result of the paired-down role magic plays in GoT vs ASOIAF (if greyscale has anything to do with those elements and/or how prophecy manifests).
However, as it was portrayed in the show, the disease did feel more like a world-building aspect than a storyline unto itself though with the show. I wouldn’t say this is necessarily bad but I think GRRM probably has something set up for greyscale.
Yeah, I agree. I don’t think the greyscale is going to end with JonCon meeting a medical prodigy in Westeros and being cured. I think it is going to be an issue and given what Val says, what Pycelle remembers, Tyrion’s description of how the disease spreads… I think greyscale is likely going to be a problem for the ASOIAFverse going forward.
AltShiftX touches upon an interesting speculation here:
Maybe! Maybe GRRM hadn’t quite figured out how the greyscale stuff by the time D&D had to plot out the final seasons.
Yup! Or it could have been a result of Adaptation Distillation. I guess we won’t ever know until (if) we ever get the books to compare and contrast…
Oh wait! Might you be referring one of my many corollary tinfoil theories for the purpose of greyscale?
Actually, I should not claim credit (or take the blame) for any theories about the origin of greyscale, no matter how outlandish. I am sure that with millions of book readers poring over every line of text in the nine years (and counting) since the last book was published, along with the global TV audience, every conceivable explanation has already been extrapolated somewhere by someone.
I was more bemoaning the fact that perhaps his own homegrown “armor” could have helped save him at that point, but….sigh.
I go with the “pulled the plug” notion on the greyscale as well. It seemed like it just ceased to matter.
Jorah: ” Dear Khaleesi…..my time is nearing an end, I am afraid. The magic potion that I procured to treat this maddening stone affliction has turned out to be nothing more than sock lint and essential oils sold by a multi-level marketing scheme. I….”
Sam: “Oh hello! Let’s go ahead and get this taken care of, shall we?” *slice*
Jorah: “AUGH WHAT THE F….well, huh. How about that, it worked…aw man, I bled all over my letter to Dany.”
Anywhoo, I don’t regret the moments greyscale was a part of (Stannis and Shireen’s sweet moment, the sailing through Valyria where Jorah and Tyrion burst into poetry, the absolutely ace acting from Emilia and Iain in their reveal/goodbye scene).
The showrunners added more to the Dorne story with the success of Oberyn, then promptly yoinked it once it was apparent it probably should have been left with his teeth on the arena floor. And so went greyscale once, I imagine, the waters got a bit murky on what exactly it was leading to.
Sam: *slice*
Jorah: “Sonofabitch, Tarly!!!!!”
Adrianacandle,
• Imagine if the show introduced Lady Stoneheart, showed her relentlessly pursuing a Frey-extermination vendetta for a couple of episodes, and then… she suddenly dropped dead in the middle of nowhere, never to be seen or heard from again.
That’s what the Jorah/greyscale storyline felt like to me.
I really don’t like taking potshots at the Big Guy. I just can’t help but think that the showrunners relied on his setup of greyscale as this big game-changer, one that would explode at the worst possible time for humanity. (See, e.g., hypothetical speculation above: Greyscale spreading from the south + ice zombies invading from the north = “We’re f*cked.”)
• About the Alt Shift X speculation you quoted:One story says this Lord was once a statue, until “a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips as cold as ice”. Which sounds kinda like the white walkers and wights. Might there be a connection between the zombies of ice and the zombies of stone?
Ice Zombies as cousins of Stone Zombies? A WW femme fatale? Ummm… okay. Why not. 🤔
Q: Does that story describe what caused that “Lord who was once a statue” to turn to stone to begin with? *
* Serious question. And cheap musical segue.
😃🎶
Ten Bears,
“Turn to Stone” – Jeff Lynne’s ELO – Live
Wembley Stadium 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXpjF1qtpt0
🗿
Not that I recall (but I could be missing a crucial passage). I felt this was more a legend trying to explain the start of greyscale more than anything but here is the passage that quote comes from (Tyrion V, ADWD):
I’ve seen people making connections to both the Others, the Ironborn, and even to Lady Stoneheart with these legends (“The dead do not rise,” “risen from his watery grave”) but these are speculations upon speculations 🙂
I agree that the greyscale plot line was dropped because D&D didn’t know where Martin was going with it, but unlike you, I have no problem taking pot shots at the Big Guy. He let down a lot of people. Speaking of which, today was the deadline Martin gave himself for completing Winds. I would hope this would officially end the speculation that Martin has had Winds completed all along, but I know it won’t.
Raenarys,
POC just aren’t needed or thought of in fantasy type shows, sadly.
That’s because Old Grand-Dad Tolkien spake thusly: “Thy fantasy kingdom shall be a version of Dark Age Britain.” Pretty much every fantasy writer in the Western world has followed Tolkien’s formula. GRRM has made it clear his version is somewhat of an answer to Tolkien’s fantasy, and so it should not surprise us his Westeros is a fantasy version of Dark Age Britain.
(Ironically, Dark Age Britain was actually a pretty diverse place — Romans ruled Londinium, Danes later had their own slice of England — but the diversity was cultural, not expressed in skin color, as it was drawn from amongst the many cultures of Western Europe at that time.)
D&D went out of their way to have a diverse cast of characters. Other commenters here have noted how characters who were white in the books were portrayed by persons of color on the show. But, for this viewer at least, the biggest example of D&D so improving on the source material was Dorne.
Dorne, from conception by GRRM to execution by D&D, was probably going to be a difficult time. GRRM shoe-horned a fantasy version of Dark Age Spain into his fantasy Cornwall, so it was a tough fit from the start. Still, Dorne is a peaceful kingdom, with an heroic past (resisting conquest by dragonriders!) and has a liberal ruler. Even the jail cells are clean, bright, and airy, and a visitor can go so far as to commit unprovoked assault upon the heir to the throne without serious punishment! If one has to reside in Westeros, it should be in this sunny kingdom, ruled by the darker-complexioned characters, in the far South.
Raenarys,
I think I am understanding better what you are saying and thank-you for making these points. I know I still have a long way to go though. I’ve been looking up videos on YouTube from speakers and writers (like this one from Ijeoma Oluo) and I’m trying to learn more about the problems and issues associated with race and racism. I know you were in no way obligated to me to talk with me about this issue and I’m being made aware that it comes with a lot of risk and trouble but I really appreciate that you did.
A few thoughts from the perspective of someone with Indian heritage.
POC representation on GoT is a tricky issue. As others have mentioned, some white characters in GRRM’s books were POC on GoT. It is also correct that you’d expect comparatively few POC characters in the parts of GoT set in Westeros, given the basis in medieval western Europe in general and Britain most of all.
However, GRRM’s books do include Black people in KL playing pivotal roles at some major points in the story that were never shown on GoT; for example: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chataya , watchersonthewall.com/asoiaf-calendar-2021-available-now . Also, Dorne is based on Moorish Spain, and we all know how much that part of the story from the books was reduced and mishandled on the show. There’s also the issue of Dany’s infamous “crowdsurfing” scene involving liberated slaves from white as well as non-white racial backgrounds in the books but very obviously brown people on GoT.
So it’s a mixed bag. Good in some areas, definitely room for improvement in others.
This is one of many reasons I think it would have been good for one of the impending prequels to be mainly set in Essos this time. The final war between Valyria and the Ghiscari Empire could have been a particularly epic show, for example. But HBO obviously have other plans. So we are where we are.
Adrianacandle,
The short version is that there are a lot of overlaps between the discriminatory issues that women have to deal with and those involving POC. Minus the sexual harassment and objectification, of course (if the POC is male), although we are harassed and “objectified” in other ways. But the overall mindsets and behaviours targeting us all are frequently very similar. So you should be able to relate to our experiences better if you consider it from that perspective.
You should read this too: https://news.gallup.com/poll/315695/black-adults-disproportionately-experience-microaggressions.aspx . The article focuses on Black adults, but exactly the same issues impact POC in general too.
Thank-you for this, Jai!
Jai,
Thank you so much for all of your insight!!
Young Dragon,
I believe, in AFFC, most of Lady Stoneheart’s story…
I see that Chatayah the sex worker/madame I mentioned upthread features in a picture in the calendar of ASOIAF mentioned in a newer thread. I was a bit vague about her yesterday because I didn’t want to be spoilery but her name has been mentioned now.
Jai,
There’s also the issue of Dany’s infamous “crowdsurfing” scene involving liberated slaves from white as well as non-white racial backgrounds in the books but very obviously brown people on GoT.
That was intended to make the audience uncomfortable. She’s visually wallowing in the adoration of the persons she has liberated, and the visual contrast between a pale person (with silver hair!) and the brown masses was created as a disturbing image. It’s another little element which contributes to her later decision to nuke KL; the white people there are ringing the bells in fear of her and her dragon, not rebelling against Cersei as Dany wants. In Dany’s eyes, their unwillingness to use their status as “free” persons to help liberate their city from a tyrant made them contemptible cowards. The slaves had done what she’d wanted, and then had adored her, and therefore were (in her eyes) far more deserving of her kind attention than were the inhabitants of King’s Landing.
Adrianacandle,
Raenarys,
No problem.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
If D&D actually did this deliberately, it’s a clever touch and another example of hiding the villain in plain sight — especially if this was yet another clue that was designed to only be really obvious in retrospect.
The points in the rest of your comment are of course correct too. The crowdsurfing incident was feeding Dany’s toxic narcissism and the associated inflated sense of entitlement, eventually with predictable consequences.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“Crowdsurfing”…
The musical reference that follows is not intended to detract from the seriousness of your conversations.
“Surf City,” Go-Go’s live (2001 Brian Wilson Tribute) (2:23 long) 🏄🏄🏄♀️
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP5pjan45ZA
For purists, here is the original version…
“Surf City” (1963) Jan & Dean (2:29 long) 🏄♀️🏄♀️🏄
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERrwjR4ZlfI
🌊
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I’ll give the two Ds a pass here because the scene was shot in Morocco so there would be darker skinned people there – though I believe some Berber people can be quite fair skinned.
Mmmkay~
I’m still inclined to defend their (& Gold’s) casting. ^~ I mean, it always felt right–you had the mostly-white western continent and the mixed eastern one. Great. Yeah, thinking over the whole saga you realize there were only the two significant black characters, which might seem a little light by contemporary standards. It had been so great that I didn’t even notice, not that I go counting anyway. But considering what a medieval world Westeros is, I wouldn’t exactly expect racial justice either. Or any kind. xD It’s not as if anybody should’ve been black who wasn’t. (And I don’t believe in changing characters from their original forms.) Of course I’m all for representation and making sure no group is entirely ignored across all productions. But I mean, if I moved to Africa or Asia or whatever, I wouldn’t expect to see as many people who look like me on the screens. Still, I’m used to seeing plenty of all colors and sorts on mine. (Also, as a woman, I must say I’ve never been even slightly oppressed or unfairly-treated.)
I’ll never view Dany as a “hidden villain.” Her “crowdsurfing” scene was sheer elation and well-deserved. Of course those people adored her. She knew there weren’t slaves in Westeros and besides, there was little the KL residents really could’ve done against Cersei even if they had clear reason to want Dany over Cersei–which at that point Dany hadn’t yet given them. Somehow we saw her side wasting all kinds of precious time and allowing Cersei to build up forces and weapons against her unwatched, yet in all that time not reaching out with a PR campaign to let the people know that life would be better under her rule. She could’ve had their support, or just earned it after winning by proving herself. Which WAS her plan. Until everything became so oversimplified, condensed, abridged, senseless…;;
Shelle,
A PR campaign would have had no effect, as we saw in the North. Jon Snow was absolutely adored in the North, but even with his backing, the northerners still didn’t accept Danerys as their queen. Dany’s best bet would be what Tyrion suggested, to blockade King’s Landing with Westerosi armies, starving the city until the people turned on Cersei. It happened before.
Danerys most definitely was a hidden villain. We saw her bad impulses flare up on several occasions, like her threatening to burn down cities, crucifying the masters, burning the Tarlys, etc. The set up for Dany’s turn was brilliantly written and was more set up than the Red Wedding.
Turning a fan favorite into the villain of the story does not make the story oversimplified or senseless, quite the opposite. Dany’s downfall was complex and was incredible story telling. It seems the problem is you wanted the story to be oversimplified. You wanted Danerys to swoop in to save the day, to be hailed as the story’s hero. Luckily, such a cliche ending was never GOT’s way.
Your view on the ending doesn’t excuse your unfounded accusation that D&D ran a toxic set. Writing a story you didn’t like doesn’t make them monsters. Stop being petty.
I don’t know if this is true. They seemed to adore Jon when the Battle of the Bastards was won but opposed multiple decisions of his when he was king, ready to overthrow him in 7×05 in favour of Sansa after he went south. The wildlings adored Jon but the North was mad at Jon every Tuesday. Even Sansa referred to them as “bloody wind vanes”.
I think the North preferred Sansa since what she wanted and what they wanted (independence) seemed to align pretty well.
I don’t think this exactly a humane option either and I’m not sure it would win points with the people of Westeros. It seems long, arduous, painful, and would invoke violence in the streets as people scrambled for resources. I think I’d call this a more painful alternative to taking the Red Keep via conquest.
Not 1D broken-recording again… Don’t tell me what I wanted because it’s incorrect. Again. Everything was ridiculously oversimplified to the point where I was literally watching a different show. “Every single northerner is of one xenophobic mind and would automatically and forever reject this incredible dragon-person coming to their rescue.” “Beloved” Jon endorsed her and was going to pass her the crown. Hardly a huge conflict. Even if I prefer Jon I can’t force him to take it and can’t be too disgruntled that the person getting it is actually a relative of his whom he loves and fully supports with excellent reason. They’ll likely be working closely together. Not as if he’s just lazy and done with ruling, but letting it slip to someone I know I hate with good reason. Adriana, right on.
And nope. Just no. If Daenerys has “hidden villain flags” then every single person ever needs to be held to the same standards, and everybody’s a villain (which I guess you could argue.) We’re all secret crazy villains who could snap at any second. Regardless, NOTHING comes anywhere close to explaining her pointless immediate-post-victory actions which weren’t a response to horrific injustice that couldn’t be permitted to stand, weren’t a logical consequence for those waging war against her, weren’t even self-serving, weren’t anything she ever would’ve done…
“Brilliant” and “complex” my foot. *gag* Maybe it could’ve been done that way, but it would’ve needed a lot more time and different approaches to make it happen. I’ve seen actual brilliant and thoughtfully nuanced suggestions/versions from fans which could have potentially sufficed, and successfully followed what came before. Think it was obvious that you wouldn’t end with “big hero Dany and/or Jon ruling wonderfully and all being beautifully perfect throughout the realm.” Which might make that the most expectation-subverting possibility, actually. xD But yeah, obviously some tragedies would befall along the way to prevent such a traditionally happy ending. More twists, turns, pivots, plausible or foreshadowed events, dangers, and surprises were anticipated. Still, even the cliche would’ve been preferable to watching a main-main character get swapped out for a pod person in the story’s eleventh hour (while most others got spoiled or short-shrifted in the attempt to twist things in an inexplicable direction.)
Idk whether links are acceptable, but wow, Senator Gillibrand was spitting straight facts here. https://twitter.com/TargaryenNation/status/1289251297280036866
I made no accusation; cut the absurdity. XD Other-D (sounding suspiciously similar) brought it up like some truly bizarre fetish so I said ‘hey, y’know, wouldn’t be surprising.’ Alas I wasn’t there.
So over going in these insane fruitless circles repeating the same stuff.
Isn’t GRRM supposed to have said something (paraphrasing) about an invader being a villain to the people who were invaded? I’ve been trying to think of other stories (or even examples in real life) where someone who started out with good intentions went bad. There is Luke’s father in ‘Star Wars’ of course and arguably Henry VIII started off as a promising king (of England and Wales) but turned out to be something of a tyrant. I cheered Dany on when she acquired the Unsullied – well it seemed a good thing to liberate a slave army, albeit it was in her interest.
I think GRRM has said this — or is there another quote you’re thinking of?
But I sort of like this quote from him better 😉
Back to Dany. While I agree with some people’s frustrations (like I see where Shelle is coming from and it’s not the story I love for Dany), the best I could come up with for the show was that Dany became an Extremist Idealist, taking her ideals to the nth degree and utilizing even the most destructive methods to achieve them and her ideal world (Utopia Justifies the Means). To me, this seems to align with how she viewed “liberating” the people of King’s Landing and her actions in 8×06. But I do think the plotting had issues.
Adrianacandle,
Jon only became unpopular when he chose to go south and try to make peace with Danerys.
Yes, it’s not entirely humane, but remember, the Tyrells also starved King’s Landing, and the residents rioted against the Lannisters. When the Tyrells then fed the residents of King’s Landing, they were adored and hailed as heroes, people forgetting that they were the ones who were starving them in the first place.
Well, even before that point, Jon didn’t seem to much matter to the North at all. Jon was popular for two episodes (6×10 and 7×01) but not so much around these episodes. He didn’t seem to register on the lords’ radar (with the exception of Roose Bolton’s in season 5), all but Lyanna dismissed Jon and Sansa when they went on their Northern tour (and Lyanna was not won over by appeals of loyalty to House Stark, flattery, or saving Rickon but by Davos’s speech about the living and the dead), and they only became interested in Jon when the battle against the Boltons was won. And then wanted to overthrow him five episodes later when yes, he went down south.
Also, do they wonder why and how Jon left the Night’s Watch..? 🙂
My point is that Jon isn’t adored in the North… but he was popular with the wildling northerners, yes! 🙂
I think my major point is that this wouldn’t be the humane option at all and it might be more painful than a straight conquest of the Red Keep. It’d also be a gamble, hoping the people will react the way you want them to. This would count on people forgetting and that might not work this time around. Cersei’s already running smear campaigns on Dany, I don’t think she’d let them forget who is causing their starvation problems. That’s the risk I think which is present. And it’d also be really brutal :/
Shelle,
The Senator is spitting BS in my opinion. Yes a character that since season one has been threating to burn cities to the ground actually did what she has been saying what a big suprise. Sure just say things like xenopbobic which makes zero sense. That Targ natioj twitter feed is pretty childish. The person just says nasty things about D&D constantly. The usual D&D are the devil and Emilia secretly hates them BS. Also D&D from all acounts ran a very safe set so unless you havr evidence that’s complete bs.
Shelle,
I have absolutely no problem telling you what you want because you’re making it painfully obvious. You’re a Danerys fan, there’s no point denying it. Naturally, you wanted her story to end well for her, and it’s understandable that you would be less than pleased, but that has everything to do with your personal preference and nothing to do with how well it was written.
Again, turning a fan favorite into the villain is the furthest away from oversimplified as you can get. Oversimplified would be having Danerys come in to save the day. That’s simple, easy. What D&D did was difficult, and yet they pulled it off spectacularly. Nothing you said refutes any of these points.
The only reason you don’t understand the northerners’ feelings toward Danerys is because of your Danerys bias. The North have a terrible history with the Targaryens, one they won’t simply forget. And Danerys wasn’t coming to their rescue. The White Walkers wasn’t only a Northern problem, it was an everyone problem. Danerys coming North was for her own benefit. And it’s not at all uncommon for a group of people to be wary of outsiders. Not at all.
Having “hidden villain flags” doesn’t automatically make you a villain. It just means you have the potential to be one. Take Arya, for example. She was heading down a dark path as well, but luckily, Sandor was able to pull her back from it. Unfortunately, Danerys wasn’t able to do the same. Also, I need to point out that none of the other characters except Cersei threatened to burn down cities and massacre thousands of innocent people, nor had the fire power to do so.
Burning down King’s Landing was a punishment. The people did not rise up like Danerys was promised and she blames them for Rhaegal and Missandei. That’s why she proclaimed them to be “not innocent.” This was consistent with her behavior, like when she punished the masters of Mereen for the 163 dead children.
King’s Landing was set up throughout the entire series. You see glimpses of Dany’s dark impulses more and more, all leading up to the climax of her arc. They spent plenty of time building up to it, and the end result was absolutely brilliant. D&D’s ending was far superior to all the fan fiction endings I have seen. After reading that fan service, I thank God every day it was D&D who were chosen to be the showrunners. No one could have done better.
Senator Gillibrand is the perfect representative for Danerys fans. She’s exactly right and I can’t argue with what she said, but she didn’t paint the complete picture. She only listed Dany’s good traits, while completely leaving off the bad. She didn’t mention her violent tendencies, her entitlement, how her first instinct is always fire and blood, etc. Danerys is one of several characters who was capable of doing great things, but she was also capable of doing terrible things. Danerys fans tend to accept the good while ignoring the bad, hence why her downfall was so unexpected. If Danerys threatening to burn down two cities didn’t open up your eyes to what she was capable of, then that’s on you, not the show.
You said that D&D having a toxic set doesn’t come as a surprise. There’s no point denying this. First of all, one isolated incident that seems to have been handled rather quickly doesn’t make it a toxic set. Second, D&D had nothing to do with it. The only thing that’s absurd is your saying it’s not surprising only because you didn’t like D&D’s ending. If you don’t want me to call you out on your nonsense, you shouldn’t post such nonsense in the first place.
Young Dragon,
Dany is my favorite character and I loved what they did with her in the end. I don’t need my favorite character to have a happy ending for me to like her ending. People also seem to think the show is some type of reality competition always saying what about what this person did. Life isn’t fair some people get away with things others don’t. People turned GOT into a sporting event instead of a story.
Fireblood87,
My top five characters are Arya, Danerys, Stannis, Jaime, and Theon. All are heavily flawed individuals, but that’s what makes them so interesting.
Here we go again
Time to trot out the “Let It Go” video?
Yes!
I think we need new news :/
Quarantine probably isn’t helping either…
I know I’ve taken part in the same debates several times over.
Shelle,
If Daenerys has “hidden villain flags” then every single person ever needs to be held to the same standards, and everybody’s a villain (which I guess you could argue.)
Stannis certainly was held to that standard. His entire story showed him receiving conflicting advice from Davos (his voice of reason and restraint) and Melisandre (his voice of religious fanaticism). In the end, both Stannis and Mel’ wanted to believe he was The Lord’s Chosen, and he made the fatal mistake of burning his daughter. Within a very short amount of time thereafter, his wife had killed herself, his non-native sell-sword army had deserted him, and he then died — after losing his entire remaining army in the battle he’d picked. That’s a lot of punishment, for a lot of people, because he believed in his own inherent rightness and goodness. (The people of King’s Landing would suffer even more for all of the belief other characters had in Dany’s inherent rightness and goodness.)
Regardless, NOTHING comes anywhere close to explaining her pointless immediate-post-victory actions which weren’t a response to horrific injustice that couldn’t be permitted to stand, weren’t a logical consequence for those waging war against her, weren’t even self-serving,
Yes, the entire point of her final atrocity was it being both needless and egregious. Winning, in the end, simply wasn’t enough for her. She had to “break the wheel,” and become the absolute despot she’d really been all along.
…weren’t anything she ever would’ve done…
She’d repeatedly threatened to burn cities to the ground. Her advisers took her threats very seriously, and carefully talked her down from them, each time. When she had no more trusted advisers to talk her down, she let fly with dragon fire. It really doesn’t get much plainer than that.
“Brilliant” and “complex” my foot. *gag* Maybe it could’ve been done that way, but it would’ve needed a lot more time and different approaches to make it happen.
Well, GRRM has never delivered the books he’d promised. If he’d provided an actual end to his story, instead of a mere outline towards that end (which D&D had to go to him personally to obtain!), HBO might have gotten the extra seasons it wanted, and there might have been more of the story we loved so much. But the end result would have been the same, because the ending we saw is the one he had planned; he’s said as much. Dany was never a hero in the making, but always a tyrant on the rise.
Shelle,
I concur with your assessment, though it isn’t my intent to join in the debate.
Rather, I simply could not contain myself after watching Senator Gillibrand’s video whinging about the show’s presentation of Dany in the final three episodes.
How f*cking rich! She of all people is complaining about “destroying her character”??? After Senator Gillibrand herself shamefully destroyed Senator Al Franken’s character – and threw him under the bus after getting so easily played by a Roger Stone ratf*cking frame up of Sen. Franken.
Sorry for venting. I am still ticked off about Gillibrand shireening Franken’s career. She is the last one to be weighing in on a story’s narrative credibility or an audience’s gullibility. 😠
Adrianacandle,
New news? Here goes…
July 31, 2020 Radio Times article, with embedded links to a newly released clip of Maisie Williams from “Two Weeks to Live;” and a July 30 Radio Times zoom Q&A panel with Maisie Williams.
https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-07-31/maisie-williams-two-weeks-to-live-clip/amp/
Exclusive: Maisie Williams is out for revenge in first-look clip from Sky One’s Two Weeks to Live. Get a sneak peek at the upcoming comic thriller, coming to Sky and NOW TV this autumn.
Maisie Williams is out for revenge in Two Weeks to Live first-look – Radio Times
https://images-immediate-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/3/2020/07/two-weeks-to-live-maisie-williams-8fc1707.jpg?quality=45&resize=1440,959
……
“Radio Times.com has an exclusive first-look clip from the series, which sees Williams’ character Kim Stokes run into trouble when she comes up against a notorious villain (played by Sean Pertwee).”
[1:22 long clip; link embedded in article]
……
“…. the Game of Thrones star plays Kim Stokes, a “strange young misfit” on the run from murderous gangsters and the police in the darkly comic series coming to Sky One later this year.”
Ten Bears,
Thanks, Ten Bears!
Shelle,
“Every single northerner is of one xenophobic mind and would automatically and forever reject this incredible dragon-person coming to their rescue.”
(One of the fun little twists in the story did come in Season 8. Up to that point, every element of the story which directly concerned the North either depicted events from a Northern perspective, or otherwise portrayed the North favorably. Only when the crisis was upon them and they had no other choice did the Northerners accept aid, and they then were revealed to be racist, xenophobic bigots who would go for a little rape and pillage when the opportunity appeared.)
That “incredible dragon-person” gave The King in the North an intense grilling when he first appeared before her in the Throne Room on Dragonstone. She made very clear that unquestioning fealty to her was the highest possible value, and only after that could he deal with silly little things, like a supernatural army on the march to kill everybody. She recalled how the North had refused her family’s rule until dragonfire forced the issue, and how her family automatically deserved that fire-forced fealty forever and ever and ever afterwards. If the Northerners later suspected her motives, well, she’d done everything she could to earn their suspicion.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
I think it was less that and more to do with, like Young Dragon said, “The North have a terrible history with the Targaryens, one they won’t simply forget,” and wariness of outsiders in general. I’d say it was more to do with Aerys’s actions.
While I agree with some of Shelle’s comments, I also would agree it was in Dany’s interest that she fight the Night King. He was a threat to the kingdom she wanted to rule, he was a threat to her (since she was one of the living), and I’m sure Dany wouldn’t be pleased with ruling a kingdom of wights as the Zombie Queen herself. She had a stake in this war, it wasn’t just the North’s. The North needed Dany and Dany needed the North. They were barely hanging on and just about done for by the time Arya managed to stab the Night King. If it had gone on for much longer, they all would have been toast. This was not something Dany or the North could have dealt with themselves.
I thought it was pretty telling that despite Jon’s orders, the Northern soldiers had the same amount of bloodlust as any other force did and participated in the massacre.
Adrianacandle,
I agree with everything you wrote. The Targ’ history with the North is not pleasant, which is why Ned rode south to join Robert’s Rebellion. Dany’s imperious actions towards Jon, when there was more pressing business afoot, simply justified continued Northern suspicion of her.
The North needed Dany and Dany needed the North.
Absolutely they needed each other. Any legitimate government, by definition, must protect the governed from external threats. Feudalism in particular is a protection racket, where the ruled give fealty to the ruler in exchange for protection. Dany needed to protect the realm to rule it, and the Northerners needed to support her in protecting their realm.
As I’ve written previously, after a great victory, the winning ruler divides up the spoils. Dany starts to do this, by legitimizing Gendry, and bestowing land and title upon him. Then she just … stops. She’s so completely uninterested in actual ruling, she won’t even perform the fun — and necessary — part, of handing out the goodies in exchange for loyalty going forwards. It’s very Targ’ of her: she has dragons, and therefore she rules, full stop. By the time she gives her “Triumph of My Will” speech over the smoking ruins of King’s Landing, she’s decided ruling will consist of nothing but her and her dragon flying all over the world, violently ‘liberating’ anyone and everyone beneath her.
Martin’s line, about Aragorn’s tax policy, has been taken a bit too literally by some. Martin always wanted to question the “happily ever after” aspect of fantasy stories, so he created one where the squabbling continues after the existential, external threat has been eliminated. He knows that’s exactly how humans really behave, and he wanted to show what might really happen in the aftermath of the great victory. Thinking big, he decided to spring a nasty surprise upon his characters and audience: having defeated the existential threat to Westeros, they discover they’ve inadvertently created an existential threat to the entire world, one which the “shield who guards the realms of men” must now take down.
He cleverly hid that looming threat in plain sight, in the guise of a hero, and got many of his characters — and audience members! — to buy into it. Little wonder there was such an uproar at how the story ended.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
In-universe, I really think it’s more about Aerys’s actions, which happened in living memory, and about the less pleasant aspects of Targaryen history because those are things the North would know about since they weren’t at Dragonstone and these sentiments were established from 7×02 onward (Jon is nearly overthrown just for going to Dragonstone). I’m also unsure how deeply most of the North took the army of the dead before they saw it. Being told it’s coming and experiencing it are two different things. Until that point, only the wildlings, Jon, and Sam had seen it. Sansa, herself, was more concerned about Cersei than the army of the dead in 7×01 — which I think is understandable given that it wasn’t really a concrete thing in her mind yet.
I don’t know if this was so much about dividing up the spoils than it was about trying to win loyalty going forward. Dany had yet to win the 7K at that point and with the NK defeated, pivoted her focus back to Cersei — her next challenge. I think this was more trying to secure allies.
(Honestly, I’m not even sure what state the Stormlands was in at that point or who was doing the day-to-day ruling. But I might have blanked out about this.)
I don’t know how Dany’s dark turn will happen in the books or what it will comprise of and the Dark Dany debate is one I avoid nowadays just because I’m not a big fan of how it went down in the show and debating that has lead to fruitless, circular debates. Kind of like arguing over a favourite colour. I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this :/
As for the rest, I always felt Aragorn’s tax policy was more about the mundane aspects and difficult parts of ruling. The less glorious and epic parts, the stuff that’s kind of both boring and tricky to consider — stuff that’s not really answered or gone over in fantasy. I don’t think it’s about springing a nasty surprise but addressing some real challenges after a victory.
Oh! And I agree with this!
(I wanted to say so in case it seemed that I was being contrary for contrary’s sake which — despite what my dad thinks — is not my goal! … 90% of the time ;D)
Adrianacandle,
I see you’re Comment #96.
So this one’s for you.
“96 Tears” (1964), by ? and The Mysterians
(dubbed video on TV, 1966)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS7qvxm3FbM
I was going to this as a musical interlude dedicated to Cersei in the next sub-thread parsing the Valonqar prophecy, i.e., the phrase “when your tears have drowned you.”
🎶 “You’re gonna cry, cry, cry cry, 96 tears.”🎶
Ten Bears,
Ooooh, thank-you! I’m going to listen now!
This, I think, would be comment #98… Is this the opportunity to link to a 98º song? 🙂
Mulan’s True to Your Heart by 98º!
That would have been a good one for this!
Adrianacandle,
98º? How about 98.6º ?
“98.6” – Keith (1967)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEjm0uP8DqQ
—
Adrianacandle,
”…Meanwhile, my Nana opted for this [“Good Morning”] as her morning song to wake us up with (or to greet morning grumpiness in the kitchen with…):”
Confession: I used to sing this song to my pet lovebird when she’d wake me up at the crack of dawn. 😴 🦜
🎶”Good morning, starshine.
The earth says hello!
You twinkle above us,
We twinkle below…”🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOWaRp6nED0
Oliver, “Good Morning Starshine” (1969)
[from the 1967 musical, “Hair”]
Oooh, that’s a good one that even I know!! I don’t know if I’ve ever heard it in full — it’s usually just the verse you quoted! 🙂
So here are a few of my whacked-out tinfoil theories for the origin of greyscale:
1. Valyrian scientists engineered greyscale as a form of biological warfare, e.g., experimenting on slaves to create supersoldiers with stone exoskeletons impervious to dragon fire. (Sort of like the heat shield on space capsules and tiles on the Space Shuttle that protect the spacecraft and its occupants from burning up upon re-entry.)
2. Careless scientists tinkering with viruses or bacteria that caused diseases like leprosy (or inherited, genetic predispositions to conditions that harden the skin), negligently allowed a highly contagious mutated strain to escape the lab and infect nearby villagers.
3. (Variation of #1) Some desperate First Men maesters or self-proclaimed wizards sought a way to immunize humans against being “turned” into wights or WWs. Greyscale contagion was the unfortunate result.
4. In the case of #1 or #3, the experiment didn’t work – or an unintended consequence of screwing around with biology was that the human guinea pigs quickly lost their minds and didn’t live long enough to become an effective defensive force against dragons or to repel WW invasions.
5. Bad magic:
– Shadow babies, glamours, and skinchanging, WW-repelling force fields, human-to-WW DG shards, fire-proof Dany + dragon egg hatching, etc. = top notch magic.
– Greyscale + Stone men = botched magic.
6. Or, perhaps greyscale-afflicted Stone Men, like visions misconstrued by Melisandre and implanted suggestion to roast people alive, were a sick joke by that merry prankster, the Lord of Light.
7. Greyscale originated in bats, was transmitted to an intermediary animal host in a wet market, and then jumped to humans. Oh wait…
8. Q: By your comment, ”Should have left the torso greyscale in place for S8E3,” did you mean to imply that if left untreated, 1/2 human 1/2 Stone Man Jorah might have been resistant to ice zombie attacks or undead dragon fire? [Compare with #1 and #3 above]
Now that would have been cool. Jorah as a doomed but invincible hybrid warrior…
Adrianacandle,
Maybe one or two more…
🎵“It’s a beautiful morning.
Each bird keeps singing his own song.” 🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3U7wxCWx5w
“It’s a Beautiful Morning” (1968) – The Rascals
Yes, that’s exactly it – his semi-exoskeletoned torso would have been, if not completely fool-proof, at least of some better efficacy against the swords that cut him down. 😔 But then…but then Sam could still save him. Right? Right? 🥺
Look, with Sandor and Jorah constantly jostling each other for my favourite GoT male character (and Iain and Rory doing a similarly good job of jostling each other for favourite GoT actor status), I really can’t complain about their tenure on the show….S1E1 to a good way through S8 for each. If Jorah had to go, it was a wonderful exit for him. I may have had my heart broken as I knew I would, but I approved. 💔
As for Sandor, well…I know I’ve mentioned here before that I have never been a fan of Cleganebowl, and never seriously expected it to happen. I would have preferred that aspect to be gone for him. However…it was alright. And boy, the scene of Drogon flying above them on the stairs to the Red Keep, how beautiful a picture was that??? 🐶🐲
I really do believe that Sandor became a bigger part of the show than intended due to Rory.
Oh yes, but your theories – not so tinfoil-y, truly! In Planetos they don’t seem so far-fetched, do they? Heck yeah super soldiers. Heck yeah, accidental release. Heck yeah, Lord of Light (always found it fitting that he (?) could be abbreviated as “LoL”. Like that was pretty much my reaction to Stannis’ expeditious 5 minute downfall of everything in the “Stannis and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day” episode. “Lol. Wait, what?” 😳
As for the bat, do you suppose the greyscale virus itself that they’d have to carry would be heavy? Even if they didn’t themselves show the symptoms? I’m just wondering, because I heard a theory that a five-ounce bat could NOT carry a one-pound stone. Wait, that’s wrong….well, something about it all being a matter of weight ratio.
One of Nathalie’s recent tweets (normally I avoid Twitter like the plague, but…) cracked me up so much as it brought major flashbacks…similar to getting a duvet into a duvet cover.
https://twitter.com/missnemmanuel/status/1288970116722556928?s=20
Maybe greyscale gives the power of super-strength?? 🙂
Going to try to rustle up some passages to prove how super strong the greyscale-afflicted Shireen secretly is…
Ooooh! I know that one!!! That’s a classic!
On the topic of horribly sunny skin-damaging mornings because the sun is essentially a ball of exploding death in space that would deafen us if we could hear it… (and okay, yes, might be responsible for all life on earth but nevermind that…)
(Top comment: “This song helped me get off heroin”)
Adrianacandle,
I don’t know if this was so much about dividing up the spoils than it was about trying to win loyalty going forward.
It’s both. Her failure to make more than a token effort demonstrated her failure of leadership. As Tywin had sneeringly reminded Tommen, Robert had confused winning with ruling; Dany was now making the same mistake. Dany’s reign simply wasn’t going to end well, no matter if it was one day or fifty years.
As for the rest, I always felt Aragorn’s tax policy was more about the mundane aspects and difficult parts of ruling. The less glorious and epic parts, the stuff that’s kind of both boring and tricky to consider — stuff that’s not really answered or gone over in fantasy. I don’t think it’s about springing a nasty surprise but addressing some real challenges after a victory.
Robert and Dany were interested only in winning, not ruling. As Martin has himself said, ruling is hard, for the reasons you gave here. He’s a good enough writer to have made his answer to the “what happens after victory?” question into a punchy ending.
And, you and I have already agreed to disagree over how we feel about that ending. It’s art, and everyone can experience it differently. I’m no more “right” in loving the ending than you are “wrong” in not liking it so much.
I wanted to say so in case it seemed that I was being contrary for contrary’s sake which — despite what my dad thinks — is not my goal! … 90% of the time ;D
Thanks for the validation, but I don’t ever think you’ve been contrary for the sake of contrariness — you’re just trying for clarity. I appreciate your willingness to take my ideas seriously enough to argue with them. (I get accused of being a contrarian all of the time, because I believe that the better an idea appears to be, the more rigorous my critique of it must become.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
My issue here (re: not getting down to the business of ruling immediately after the NK was defeated) is that Dany still needed to take the 7K at this point so it wasn’t all won and done at this point. She still needed to overthrow Cersei so I think turning her focus to how to defeat Cersei was reasonable (plus, this season only had 6 episodes…)
One can probably judge Dany’s ability to rule based on Meereen and in the books, at least, while her rule was far from flawless, I thought she actually made some good efforts and achieved some good things (like a very very tenuous peace and a period with no bloodshed) — but Dany, herself, did not feel she was being successful due to the compromises she was having to make again and again (some of which required her to compromise her personal ideals to appease otherwise warring factions, like rolling back some of her anti-slavery measures, resulting in a growing amount of frustration and building resentment for what she had to do), which made her increasingly more unhappy and feeling hopeless.
As for the show in 8×06, at least, Dany’s post-victory “liberation” speech didn’t sound awesome for dealing with the mundane and tricky parts of ruling either..
I’d agree with that for Robert but I don’t know if I can fully agree with Dany. Perhaps in the end but I’d have to think about that some more. Maybe the books will shed more light on this if they’re ever published.
In Meereen at least, Dany put off going to Westeros and stayed in Meereen because she felt a responsibility to rule the city and learn how to be a queen, to learn how to control Slaver’s Bay. In the books at least, much of her ADWD story is about Dany learning how to rule, what is required of it, the sacrifices and compromises it entails, and putting in the time to this end. I don’t know how the Meereen chapter will close in the books, that’s still the source of speculation but I think Dany at least made an effort whereas Robert didn’t make much of one.
This might change going forward, I don’t know.
Exactly, it’s not so much an issue of right or wrong than it is a matter of opinion, I think 🙂
I’m glad! Sometimes I get to a place where I feel I’m disagreeing too much — and while I do disagree, I feel that I can try harder to find some common ground. It’s not always possible but I think the effort is worth it and something to strive for.
Or that’s what I was taught to do in university in critiques! But yes, I definitely do take your ideas very seriously 🙂
Also, thank-you for this too! And I reread some of my above message and wanted to make clear I certainly don’t disagree with you all the time! I remember topics that I think we’ve agreed on too, like GRRM’s ending aligning with the show ending 🙂
Pigeon,
” As for the bat, do you suppose the greyscale virus itself that they’d have to carry would be heavy? Even if they didn’t themselves show the symptoms? I’m just wondering, because I heard a theory that a five-ounce bat could NOT carry a one-pound stone. Wait, that’s wrong….well, something about it all being a matter of weight ratio.”
What if two bats carried it between them?
Adrianacandle,
“🎶Look over yonder,
What do you see.
The sun is rising,
Most definitely.
A new day is coming…”🎵
“Crystal Blue Persuasion” (1968)
Tommy James & The Shondells
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2821Jvnaeg8
💎
Whenever I hear this song, I think of Mr. White’s own Crystal Blue Persuasion 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNLY9w_8Izo
(I tried to find a better quality video of this scene but no luck…)
Adrianacandle,
1. I had read that “Crystal Blue Persuasion” was used in “Breaking Bad.”
2. I have not yet watched a single episode of “Breaking Bad.” It is on my To-Watch list. I’ve heard it’s really good. (I also understand that the consensus is that the showrunners “stuck the landing,” i.e., brought the show to a satisfying conclusion.)
3. One more “good morning” song to follow…
Yes! It’s really good and the finale feels very right, I don’t think I’d change a single thing! I was going to link to another Breaking Bad blue-related song but I think that’d diminish one of the great moments you’ll encounter if you watch the series in full 🙂
But yes, great series!
Adrianacandle,
Last one….
🎶🎹 ”Morning has broken,
like the first morning.
Blackbird has spoken 🦅 💬
like the first bird.🎶 💬🦜
Praise for the singing,
Praise for the morning…”🎼
– “Morning Has Broken” (1971)
Cat Stevens (traditional Scottish? melody, with lyrics by Eleanor Farjeon (1931); and piano intro and interlude by Rick Wakeman)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0TInLOJuUM
——-
“Morning Has Broken” – (live in 2015)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev73yXYP6aY
——
I was going to link to this very song in response but a different version of it!!
Ellen Greene sings it on Pushing Daisies (that’s where I know it from!)
Great minds… 😉
Adrianacandle,
I had never heard Ellen Greene’s cover of “Morning Has Broken.” It sounded kind of wistful. Which reminded me of “Early Morning Rain” by my favorite Canadian troubadour, Gordon Lightfoot. Although Peter, Paul & Mary, Elvis Presley, and many others have covered his song, Gordon Lightfoot’s own version remains my favorite:
“Early Morning Rain” – Gordon Lightfoot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pqttl9aWm0
+
“Early Morning Rain” live 1969
(on BBC TV)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFJ5Bj_put0
P.S. Coincidentally, I saw in today’s newspaper a review of a just-released documentary about Gordon Lightfoot. He’s now 81, but still performs.
Ten Bears,
Thank-you for these links! As a Canadian, it’s always nice to hear some Canadian work 🙂 And I’ve never heard this song before!
And also, I love that he still performs at 81.
It is! I think it makes more sense in the context of the episode and I do recommend Pushing Daisies if you ever get through your To-Watch list 🙂
Adrianacandle,
You’re probably more familiar with some other Gordon Lightfoot’s songs, like “Sundown.” (The title is the inverse of our “good morning” themed sub-thread.)
I think I cited “Sundown” a while back in a “Musical Interlude” dedicated to Cersei from Jaime:
🎶“I can see her lyin’ back in her satin dress
In a room where you do what you don’t confess.”
***
“She’s been lookin’ like a queen in a sailor’s dream
And she don’t always say what she really means.”
***
“I can picture every move that a man could make
Getting lost in her lovin’ is your first mistake.”🎶
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeRlumGqZlY
“Sundown” (1974), Gordon Lightfoot
Ten Bears,
I’m embarrassed to admit this but…
I don’t know the song! 🙁
I’m a child of the 90s-00s and my musical education isn’t… amazing. Most of my song references are from popular film and TV (like… Glee…) or commercials 🙁 Dad tried but I’d put on Sailor Moon/Buffy/Disney/Spice Girls/Britney Spears/etc. in my head (or on my discman, later mp3 player) and basically nod to keep him happy.
Now I wish I listened T___T But I’m going to listen to that song now!! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
The authorities will be along shortly to revoke your Canadian citizenship. 😉
Mind you, I can’t stand Neil Young, RUSH, or Joni Mitchell, so I’ve sure that violates some sort of law as well, eh.
But but but I say sorry a lot! Even when somebody rams into me with their shopping cart or shoves me when trying to get off the bus! Surely that must count for something!
And I go to Tim Horton’s every day!! Every day! My recycling is filled with Tim’s cups! I was planning on building a paper cup shrine! I’ve set it as my respawning location should I die IRL!
Where can I appeal??? There’s an appeal process, right? I can up my sorry-count! I can even draw out the ‘o’ more per proper Canadian pronunciation!
I know who Celine Dion is!
Actually, I think this won you 1 Canada Point!
Your appeal has been heard and accepted. It’s all aboot the amount of profuse apology, which you’ve demonstrated admirably. You will not be told to take off, ya hoser. 😊
*Canadian anthem blasts in accordion*
So beautiful!! ;0; <3
I appreciate and cherish your forgiveness from the bottom of my Tim-Horton’s-hot-tea-drinking-in-summer-Canadian-heart.
I pledge, here and now, I will continue to be sorry forever. In the name of Canada. May we always be sorry.
And I’ll always know who Gordon Lightfoot is from this point forward, now and for always.
Adrianacandle,
I’m the one who should apologize. I thought Gordon Lightfoot was like royalty in Canada.
One more of his songs you may have heard – which I was also going to try to shoehorn into a GoT Musical Interlude (if the topic of a post related to the Ghost of Harrenhal; Young Cersei’s friend who got chucked down a well; or Old Nan’s tale of a whole generation of families enduring the Long Night 1.0 huddled inside a castle dark or a fortress strong.)
It would’ve been a stretch to relate the song to GoT though…
🎶“If you could read my mind, love
What a tale my thoughts could tell
Just like an old time movie
About a ghost from a wishing well
In a castle dark or a fortress strong
With chains upon my feet
You know that ghost is me
And I will never be set free
As long as I’m a ghost you can see.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT_J-LNqVvw
“If You Could Read My Mind” (1970)
Gordon Lightfoot.
Yes!! I do know that one!!!! So well!!! 😀
You know, that song may be able to relate to how prophecy can become an obsession, particularly with Cersei? Chains, will never be set free, if you could read my mind, kind of turning that person into a ghost of what they once were because the more they start avoiding the prophecy, the more they make it come true and it becomes an obsession…
And it’s probably going to kill Cersei…
Making her a ghost…
Never to be set free…
Or maybe I’m getting ahead of myself…
You don’t need to apologize! I am the worst baseline for stuff! He is probably royalty in Canada, I’m just clueless! Seriously, until I was like 13, I thought Vanilla Ice was actually… vanilla ice and how great it’d be in a Pepsi instead of regular boring water-flavoured ice…
Adrianacandle,
Part 1 of 2
Is there such a thing as “Canada Day” in Canada? On July 1st? 🇨🇦
If so, see Part 2…
Adrianacandle,
Part 2 of 2
“Gordon Lightfoot – Canada Day 2020”
(July 1, 2020)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDRQnbAtmLs
This video just popped up in YouTube’s “Up Next” recommendations a few minutes ago. I had never seen it before. I did not know there is such a thing called “Canada Day.”
Caption: “Canadian music legend Gordon Lightfoot performs “I’ll Tag Along” and “If You Could Read My Mind”* from in front of his home as part of virtual Canada Day celebrations on July 1, 2020.”
* at 3:56 of the 7:28 long video
I’ve never heard the first song, “I’ll Tag Along.” I had just linked the studio version of the second song, “If You Could Read My Mind” (1970), in my comment at 6:28 pm.
He’s going to be 82 in November…
He recorded this song… back in 1970. Fifty years ago. 😳
Adrianacandle,
” Seriously, until I was like 13, I thought Vanilla Ice was actually… vanilla ice and how great it’d be in a Pepsi instead of regular boring water-flavoured ice…”
Hey! That’s a great idea! Certainly better than the reality of faux “rapper” Vanilla Ice, whose big “hit” was an almost note-for-note ripoff of David Bowie/Queen’s “Under Pressure.”
I am going to make vanilla ice cubes tonight, and try them in my Diet Coke tomorrow.
🧊 🧊
Oh, thank-you for this!
That was really great of him to do. Canada Day celebrations were all cancelled this year so it felt like another day without all the parades and festivals that usually happen on Canada Day (it also coincides with The Calgary Stampede sometimes on their Sneak-A-Peek pre-opening day or the actual opening day!)
So this was really nice to see!
Yes, Canada Day is Canada’s birthday! 🙂 In Calgary, we used to always go to the parade that ran through downtown and you had to get there at 6 AM to get a good place on the street to watch it go by — or to Prince’s Island Park for all the festivals happening there (the bridge over the Bow river would be jammed pack full of sweaty people getting to and from the inner-city island) and this was around the time the poplar trees would release white fluff, always giving me a sore throat… 🙂
Canada Day always seemed to signal the official kick-off of summer for me alongside Stampede! But summer kind of got old by the end of that same week for me too. Heat. Sun. People outside making noise.
Oooh! Tell me how it is! I have yet to make vanilla ice… but I think it’s about time I try it too! 🙂
New earworm… 🐛
Adrianacandle,
I don’t know how Dany’s dark turn will happen in the books or what it will comprise […] In the books at least, much of her ADWD story is about Dany learning how to rule, what is required of it, the sacrifices and compromises it entails, and putting in the time to this end. I don’t know how the Meereen chapter will close in the books…
D&D adapted Martin’s story, and stayed as close to it as time and money allowed. Based on that, I speculate they already gave us the broad outline of how Dany’s arc will go: all of her attempts at compromise fail in Slavers’ Bay, she needs to use force to rectify the situation there, and by the time she’s on Westeros, she decides that using force works well enough all by itself, without first attempting compromise. Nuking the largest city on Westeros — the city her family founded! — makes for an unequivocal message to the other leaders of Westeros.
And I’ll reiterate, I don’t think Dany had a “dark turn,” just that she finally decided to do what she had repeatedly said she would do all along: burn entire cities if she didn’t get everything she wanted. Rulership without compromise simply requires a tremendous application of great force, and that is what she did.
(In creating both of Dany’s dilemma’s, I believe Martin drew upon the American Civil War: the attempts to compromise over slavery, and the use of astronomical levels of force after those attempts all miserably failed.)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re going to agree on these particulars and I don’t want to get into the Dark Dany debate so I’d like to leave it at that. I think, while yes, the broad strokes are probably the same between the latter seasons and books, I don’t know what differences there will be. It’s hard for me to comment until we ever get the books because I just don’t know.
There were already differences between the show and books from the first, especially adaptational choices for the purposes of streamlining, the addition of show-only characters and storylines, and the absence of some book characters/early deaths of book characters.
I don’t think it’ll be terribly different, that’s not what I’m saying, but things may not go down exactly how they did in the show. But that’s only speculation. This is a hard debate to have for the latter seasons since we don’t have the latter books to compare and contrast and I don’t know that we ever will.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”D&D adapted Martin’s story, and stayed as close to it as time and money allowed. Based on that, I speculate they already gave us the broad outline of how Dany’s arc will go:..”
Well, yes and no. Allow me to speculate that:
– Time and money weren’t really a factor.
– D&D were not able to stay as close to Martin ‘s story “as time and money allowed” insofar as giving us “the broad outline of how Dany’s arc will go” because Big G did not even give them a broad outline.
– He left them hanging, with just the ending but none of the interstitial elements of Dany’s arc from where the books left off until its ultimate end point.
– The showrunners, who had never signed up to finish G’s story to begin with, yet were forced to not only complete it for him but do so in a severely constricted time frame, had to extrapolate from scratch a savior-to-villain final act for Dany.
As I’ve suggested half-jokingly in the past, when it came time to script the final seasons, and the showrunners called up GRRM to consult with him, their conversation went something like this:
D&D: “Okay, Dany’s finally setting sail and leaving Mereen. Now what?”
GRRM: “Dunno. Jet’s game’s on. Gotta go.” [click! ☎️]
D&D: “George? Hello? Hello? … Damn it!” 🤬
I doubt that to this day G has even begun to map out how he will complete Dany’s arc.
He has already had the luxury of adopting a win-win, “wait and see” approach to the audience’s reaction to the showrunners’ version, e.g.:
Fandom: ”That ending was f*cking awesome! Loved it!”
GRRM: “”Just the way I told it to Dan and Dave.”
– or –
Fandom: “That sucked!”
GRRM: “Hey, don’t look at me.”
Let me be clear. I am not bashing the author. He lost his creative mojo, and that is not something he can turn on and off like a faucet. He is surely frustrated, and flagellating himself for missed deadlines and for not completing ASOIAF in the 9+ years it’s been since his last book was released.
I am sure he did not fathom that the show would not only pass the books but reach the end before he even released TWOW.
Nevertheless, love it or hate it (or both), the show’s path for Dany from benevolent would-be savior to mass-murdering Mad Queen was the product of the showrunners having been left to their own devices without significant input or ideas from GRRM.
Then again, what do I know? This is all rampant speculation on my part. 🙄
Adrianacandle,
Apologies for the unintended earworm. Though I like David Bowie and Queen, that particular song was monotonous, and Vanilla Ice’s rip-off of it was dreadful.
If I had wanted to leave you with an earworm, it would be this snappy song my sister forbids me from even mentioning, lest it activate a replay in her head:
⚠️ Earworm Trigger Warning!
Music video (U.S. version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsC4qs23FE4
Music video (BBC version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1pt5pXFjUE
The only reason I’d subject you to this now is because down the road it may be the springboard to a contemplated multi-part Comment consisting of a trip down a series of Forrest Gump-type rabbit holes, with visits to present and past pop culture events and historical figures like Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Jack Nicholson, Quentin Tarantino, Reese Witherspoon, Ann-Margaret, and Peter Fonda.
I’ll leave that long detour for another day when there’s a lull in commenting here.
Ten Bears,
Oh, thank-you for these! (And no need to apologize! This is an earworm I don’t mind 🙂 ) I’m curious about this song after learning you’ve been forbidden by your sister from mentioning the tune — I’ll play them first thing tomorrow!
And I’m really curious about this too!
Time for me to crash for a few hours!
Ten Bears,
Oh yes. Definitely. Yes. That is an earworm if there ever was one!
Every time I hear this song, it’s in my head for days. Like, they did a version of this on The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina and I wasn’t even that into this show, nor did I love their version that much, but still — in head for days! I had to go to the scene on YouTube and play it on repeat just to soothe the earworm!
There is sweet irony in the slavers in GOT being mainly black, while the slaves they caught and sold where white. I liked that part.
Adrianacandle,
I checked out the video of the cover version of the song, used in a cheerleading scene in Season 3 of “The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina” (in early 2020?) with Kiernan Shipka. I’ve never watched that show.
There must be a rule in Hollywood that every cheerleading movie or TV episode must use that song on its soundtrack.
I remembered that a cover of the song was also used in the cheerleading competition movie “Bring It On” (2000) with Kirsten Dunst, Gabrielle Union and Eliza Dushku:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGC2bYvUovo
I suppose they’re inspired by the cadence, costumes and choreography in the video of the original version…
Ten Bears,
Yes! And it is a very upbeat, fast, peppy song with strong beats which is pretty perfect for cheerleading routines!
But oh, the sheer ear-staying power this song has!
I also watched this scene way way way too many times, as I did the Sabrina scene!
There’s something about that song that lures me… and keeps playing in my head over and over and over. I just have to be reminded of the song and oh, here it is, visiting in my head for a month! 🙂
Truly not that interested in going over so much tiresome nonsense yeeeeet again. But eh, I suppose I kinda must…?
Don’t necessarily endorse Gillibrand as a politician, btw! But TargaryenNation is fabulously excellent & wonderful.
(Yeah, yeah, “makes zero sense,” “bs”–not much to say there. Yawn.)
Well, nobody’s gonna tell me what I want because yes, I’m a fan of Daenerys. Duh. Irrelevant. She’s imperfect; I wouldn’t love a dull Mary Sue. Just wanted a believable treatment. Doesn’t have to be happy or involve “getting what she deserves,” since obviously that rarely happens. Doesn’t have to make her the greatest hero of the world. There was nothing spectacular or subtle or challenging or brilliant about “Oh, btw she’s just dragon-Hitler now, okay? Cool. Moving on. Only six episodes, you know!”
Easy enough to accept/ignore or try to explain away if one never liked her much anyway, I guess.
Of course she’d have to get rid of the walkers+wights one way or another. Still tough to imagine being a northerner and not feeling the appropriate amount of awe and gratitude watching her and her armies & dragons show up to give them hope. Some of their attitude is understandable, sure. A little wariness, fine. Not immediately throwing yourselves at her feet or anything like that–totally get it. But the overall anti-Dany conflict that they tried to start stoking in the premiere…just so manufactured and overblown. Would’ve been all right for the sake of “more interpersonal quarreling soon to be revealed as insignificant,” rather than actual pitiful, doomed-to-backfire attempt at turning people against the eternally-beloved heroine/main face of the show.
Dany had every right to be skeptical of Jon’s story. Then she risked literally everything to save his sorry hide, plus all those other dudes’. He then willingly bent the knee when she was no longer asking, and she sincerely swore they’d take down the NK as a team. (Though I expected their side to lose at Winterfell, so now doubly lament the way that went…)
Oh yeah, Arya was headed down such a dark path. Ffs, she had one person left. But noooo, don’t use your faceless assassin on Cersei. That’d be too intelligent for you recently lobotomized folks. Let her sneak in herself without informing y’all for some reason, then listen to the Hound and allow the building to kill Big C instead…um, aiight. Whatever. She wasn’t becoming a villain either way.
The non-slave people “rising up” in support of somebody they don’t even know yet was never part of the plan. That got thrown in out of left field in the second-to-last episode. Dany was explicitly aware not to expect so much as hearing of secret toasts to her return, let alone uprising. No connection between them & Rhaegal/Missandei. Direct connection between dead children and their murderers.
Combining the best fan suggestions/rewrites would yield a stupendous 11/10 ending, received & hailed like the rest of the series.
Total moot point re: the set; if you’d heard stories, yeah, wouldn’t be too big a shock at this point. Fortunately you didn’t.
I take no issue with Dany wanting to return fire on those mercilessly attacking/opposing her and clearly unwilling to compromise. Nor with taking advantage of the ability to threaten people and have to be taken seriously. She was one of the characters who most consistently tried hard to determine what was right/best for all and put it into action. She was all about compassion for the powerless and the innocent. She just wasn’t a pushover milquetoast.
Breaking the wheel meant ending the oppressive cycle of all-effectively-the-same powerful families fighting over a throne while everybody else suffered.
We saw her ruling style in the east. Plenty of opportunity to go berserk. Little to suggest she lacked interest in being a true ruler. Dany barely had a chance in Westeros…the moment she’d achieved her goal at long last, SNAP. Genetically wacko nutbag, gone beyond all reason, who never stood a chance thanks to her heritage. Unrecognizable. (Or did I miss the scene where she was conditioned to go rabid at the toll of a bell?) One dragon left & supposedly reduced forces–should’ve made her a bit more cautious if she were still her sane, normal self with the same aims. But no. Daenerys gone, She-Hitler here to stay.
You always get the “she was like this all along, she just had advisers holding her back…” Like oh BOY. Crazy madwoman requires others (primarily men) to keep her on a leash, and once she’s free all heck breaks loose. Really? That’s it? And in the end you still need a guy, albeit an atypical one, in charge. (AND we still don’t even get to stick around long enough to get a sense of his tax policy or anything else.) Look, I don’t even buy into what I call neofeminism, and maybe this seemed like a very clever subversion when George originally conceived of it, but there’s no wonder it went over like a lead balloon in this day and age. Hard to picture loving it in the books either, though surely it’d have to be an improvement, were it ever to arrive (and he hadn’t altered his course.)
True though, that GRRM has to shoulder some degree of blame. How much can’t be ascertained, unfortunately–which renders the whole continued discussion particularly useless. Just how much detail did the writers have to work with, & when?
Not an excuse, but still. I’d like to know what went on behind the scenes.
Fair point re: the northerners’ true natures, just not the type of “fun twist” I’d had in mind. xD
Dany was practically shown to be a saint. o.O Freed the slaves, gave them the option to do whatever they wanted, was rewarded with them choosing loyalty to the one who’d shown them respect. She only became an uber-extreme idealist riiiight at the last moment, when it was simply pointless and there was no need whatsoever to go in on the idea that “maybe we need to destroy this world in order to build the one we want.” Seemed to go in that direction purely for the fun and spectacle of incinerating the KL set. Again, should’ve gone straight there first thing…
I’d still pick her as my queen. ^^
But meh. “The people” are clearly fickle imbeciles anyway. xD Worse than the adults of South Park just standing there going “rabble rabble rabble.”
Dire guineapig–yes! True.
**FIN**
Dire guineapig,
There is sweet irony in the slavers in GOT being mainly black, while the slaves they caught and sold where white. I liked that part.
I agree completely, and better yet, Tyrion and Jorah aren’t just any white guys; they were members of the ruling caste in their homeland. Slavery of Africans in America was based not upon warfare, but kidnapping, and the victims could be anybody.
Also, the one slaver’s announcement, “The dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant,” may well be the very best line in the entire history of ever. 😉
Shelle,
All of your complaints about the character of Dany have been previously answered, so I’ll not bother answering them again. I honestly do not know why you come to a site meant to celebrate Game of Thrones, just to repeatedly lodge the same old complaints, with ever greater tedium each time. Sour grapes, if I had to guess.
Why was there no concerted attempt to murder Cersei? Because changing political leaders via assassination would be a rather bad way to start reforming politics on Westeros. In a feudal society, leadership is determined in battle, not by stealth killing.
What did “breaking the wheel” even mean? Dany never defined it. Whatever it might have meant in theory, in practice it became, “kill them all and rule the ashes.” The history of government and revolution contains many such real-life examples, e.g. the Bolshevik revolution was supposed to bring unprecedented peace, prosperity, and individual freedom. In reality, it created a mass-murdering, totalitarian police state which impoverished its surviving citizens by building absurd numbers of thermonuclear weapons.
I take no issue with … taking advantage of the ability to threaten people and have to be taken seriously.
Maybe you should have taken issue with it. If you had, then perhaps you would have seen where such repeated threats of violence can end — where her repeated threats did, indeed, end.
Maybe you would not have been so shocked by what ultimately happened.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Tensor: Why was there no concerted attempt to murder Cersei? Because changing political leaders via assassination would be a rather bad way to start reforming politics on Westeros. In a feudal society, leadership is determined in battle, not by stealth killing.”
Where have I heard this debate before? Oh yeah…
S4e8, Sandor & Arya
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi2WTmQRKvg
0:35 – 0:50
Ten Bears,
– Time and money weren’t really a factor.
In a production this big? They always are. Martin has said he wrote the story with intentional disregard for production costs, as he’d encountered such concerns in his screenwriting. With this story, he wanted no such constraints. (Ironically, he still has no such constraints, but the adaptation suffered from his intentional lack of them…)
– D&D were not able to stay as close to Martin ‘s story “as time and money allowed” insofar as giving us “the broad outline of how Dany’s arc will go” because Big G did not even give them a broad outline.
He claimed to have given them “broad strokes”. We don’t know how much detail that meant.
– He left them hanging, with just the ending but none of the interstitial elements of Dany’s arc from where the books left off until its ultimate end point.
Again, we simply don’t know. More written story would likely have produced a better outcome, yes, but that’s merely more speculation on our part.
Nevertheless, love it or hate it (or both), the show’s path for Dany from benevolent would-be savior to mass-murdering Mad Queen was the product of the showrunners having been left to their own devices without significant input or ideas from GRRM.
To this reader/viewer at least, in retrospect it’s obvious GRRM had Dany’s ending in mind from very early in his writing process. How many of the interstitial “beats” he gave D&D between the ending of his fifth book and the end of the story, we don’t know. They got to the end of his story the best they could, and while not everyone liked the result, it’s hard for me to see how D&D could have done better.
I just saw this post!
Yes, that struggle is relatable and real! It never folds back nearly as neatly or as tightly as the manufacturer can do it. Or professional folders.
Also, has anybody here used a light tent or worn a hoop skirt? Same kind of deal — easy for it to pop out of its case but such a struggle to fold it back up neatly and back to its tiny case’s size.
Shelle,
If you were a true fan, you would accept Danerys for who she was, not who you would like her to be. Danerys was a fascinating character because she was capable of doing great things, but she was also capable of doing terrible things. Yes, she freed the slaves, but she did so in one of the cruelest ways imaginable. The fact you don’t take issue with Danerys threatening to commit mass murder is exactly the problem. You’re biased. After she threatened to burn Yunkai and Astapor to the ground, you should have known exactly what she was capable of. D&D remained true to Dany’s character until the end. You just refused to see the dark path Danerys was walking until it was too late. That’s on you, not the show.
There. Fixed it for you.
Ten Bears,
Not really. If Danerys could threaten to commit mass murder without some viewers seeing the dark path she was on, it’s because they refused to do so.
Shelle,
” There was nothing spectacular or subtle or challenging or brilliant about “Oh, btw she’s just dragon-Hitler now, okay? Cool. Moving on. Only six episodes, you know!”
***
… Still tough to imagine being a northerner and not feeling the appropriate amount of awe and gratitude watching her and her armies & dragons show up to give them hope. Some of their attitude is understandable, sure. A little wariness, fine. Not immediately throwing yourselves at her feet or anything like that–totally get it. But the overall anti-Dany conflict that they tried to start stoking in the premiere…just so manufactured and overblown.”
***
… We saw her ruling style in the east. Plenty of opportunity to go berserk. Little to suggest she lacked interest in being a true ruler. Dany barely had a chance in Westeros…the moment she’d achieved her goal at long last, SNAP. Genetically wacko nutbag, gone beyond all reason, who never stood a chance thanks to her heritage. Unrecognizable. (Or did I miss the scene where she was conditioned to go rabid at the toll of a bell?) One dragon left & supposedly reduced forces–should’ve made her a bit more cautious if she were still her sane, normal self with the same aims. But no. Daenerys gone, She-Hitler here to stay.
You always get the “she was like this all along, she just had advisers holding her back…” Like oh BOY. Crazy madwoman requires others (primarily men) to keep her on a leash, and once she’s free all heck breaks loose. Really? That’s it? And in the end you still need a guy, albeit an atypical one, in charge….
I share many of your perceptions:
• The ingratitude from the Northerners was perplexing. Not only was Dany there with her armies – at Jon’s express request – to help defend them from all but certain annihilation, but she had already proved herself worthy of at least some courtesy, respect and gratitude after rescuing Jon’s Snow Patrol from the Frozen Lake.
[More on that a little later; I need to retrieve some book! Stannis quotes.] And what about Ned Stark’s motto (recounted by Jon in S6e10) that “My father used to say we find our true friends on the battlefield”?
I thought Sansa was supposed to use charm and courtesy to ingratiate herself with or disarm potential antagonists. I could not figure out why she treated Dany with obvious disdain from the get go. And Arya’s “she’s not one of us” attitude was so out of character. (She sounded more like Cersei and Joffrey Lannister than a Stark.) Especially after Arya’s effusive praise of dragon-riding Visenya Targaryean as her heroine (in her S2 conversation with Tywin), I figured she’d be fangirling all over Dany. Where did her impulsive dislike come from?
• I am still not quite sure if Dany’s turn from benevolent Savior to Mass Murdering Mad Queen
was supposed to be the result of an inherited Targ crazy gene being triggered; seeing the Red Keep as a “symbol” (as Weiss stated); or something else. If she was a nutjob all along but had previously been reined in by advisors, well that would have been a cheapening of her character.
(to be continued…later?)
Ten Bears,
Again, for the umpteenth time, Danerys was not doing the North any favors. The White Walkers were not a northern problem. They were an everyone problem, that was the whole point of that storyline. The White Walkers posed a threat to Danerys and her people. The North helped Danerys just as much as she helped them, so the North should not have had to give up their independence.
Sansa and Arya had every right to be distrustful of Danerys. Their brother, Robb, fought and died trying to free the North, and Danerys took it away.
I might regret getting involved here but I feel strongly about this.
I think it’s okay for people to have different perspectives on a character and feel different ways about a storyline and express why that is without being told, “If you were a true fan[…]” I don’t think any of us have the authority to decide what a true fan is or isn’t. Just because they didn’t see something coming, felt differently about a character, or disagreed with a character’s direction, I don’t think that means they were being deliberately obtuse. People have different views, feelings, and opinions.
This is why I avoid the Dark Dany debate now — because with some, it can lead into these kinds of comments. I’m glad this turn worked for you, I really am, but it didn’t work for others. It didn’t work for me, it didn’t work for Shelle. And I think that’s okay.
Adrianacandle,
You misunderstand. I have absolutely no problem if people didn’t like the direction of Dany’s character. That’s a matter of personal taste. The problem is when they say something is out of character just because they didn’t like the action that character took. For example, Danerys burning down King’s Landing. If there’s a character that threatens to burn down cities, and then goes and burns down a city, you may not like it, but you can’t say it was out of character.
I agree with many of your comments but this bit might have backfired on both Jon and Dany. It would lead into a conversation as to why the Night King got a dragon, upon which he burned a hole into Westeros for immediate entry. And the mission was developed because Dany needed a truce with Cersei before she could help fight the Night King, afraid of getting screwed over down south while she was focusing on the threat up North. So Tyrion came up with the wight plan to capture a wight to present to Cersei as proof, Jon approved of the mission and offered to head it, and when Dany flew to their rescue, the Night King got one of her dragons. I don’t think this would win much courtesy or respect but rather, it may have turned the tide for the negative.
I don’t think the writers wanted to deal with the fall-out from this when they needed to get everyone on board to fight the Night King within two episodes in order to resolve that storyline.
Well, I think it is valid for somebody to feel something is out of character, that’s also an opinion and subject to personal taste as well (how we receive and view characters, which can differ). They may have truly felt this wasn’t earned or in-character and I think that’s okay to mention or debate. For me, the Dark Dany debate is one I’ve largely given up on myself because I personally don’t really get anything new out of it but I think it’s okay to feel the way Shelle does, even if you don’t agree with her reasons. Just like I think it’s okay for others to disagree and feel that it was earned.
Adrianacandle,
Fair enough.
Thanks, Young Dragon! 🙂
Shelle,
Cont. from 10:54 pm
With the caveat that I may be seeing parallels where none were intended, or taking book! quotes out of context….
I thought Dany had proved her mettle by responding to the Wight Hunters’ S.O.S. ravengram and flying beyond the Wall to save them – instead of staying put on Dragonstone and continuing her pursuit of the throne.
This reminded me of book! Stannis’s realization that he would be putting the cart before the horse if he sat tight on Dragonstone to pursue the throne, instead of answering the ravengram from the NW that they were about to be overwhelmed by invaders from beyond the Wall:
[Book! Stannis, after detouring north, beyond the Wall, to save Jon and the NW]:
“Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”
…. And this, from Book! Samwell:
“Few of the birds that Maester Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared.”
Show! Dany got no recognition for prioritizing saving the kingdom over trying to win the throne. She cared enough to save the idiot wight hunters and bring her armies north – yet she was met with distrust and xenophobia.
Was the lesson that Dany should’ve pulled a Cersei and taken the attitude, “F*ck ‘em. They’re on their own. Let ‘em get wiped out up there while I take power down here”?
Young Dragon,
”Sansa and Arya had every right to be distrustful of Danerys. Their brother, Robb, fought and died trying to free the North, and Danerys took it away.”
Jon gave it away. Dany didn’t take it away.
I think the issue here is if Dany took on this attitude, the North would have been wiped out and would have contributed to the Night King’s army, making the undead an ever greater threat Dany would have to face on her own without the added numbers the Northerners and wildlings provided. And they were barely hanging on by the skin of their teeth as it was.
It’s to Cersei’s sheer luck (well, as far as the undead went) that the combined efforts of Dany, her armies, the North, and the wildlings were able to hold off the wights long enough for Melisandre to inform Arya of her purpose and for Arya to stab the Night King. If they hadn’t, Cersei would have been fodder for the Night King’s army herself.
Young Dragon,
Public Service Announcement
From “Moderation Policy” (in site’s FAQ)
“ 2. What is the moderation policy when commenting on Watchers On the Wall ?
WatchersOnTheWall.com has an open commenting policy for the most part, but personal attacks on other commenters are not permitted….”
Ten Bears,
That’s not the story they were told. Jon said that he had no choice but to give up the North for Dany’s assistance.
Ten Bears,
And where did I break the moderation policy? I didn’t personally attack anyone.
Ten Bears,
Danerys did indeed provide a great service to the North by saving their king, but unfortunately, it’s undercut by her taking away their independence. That’s too high a price.
Well, Jon said that it was either keep his crown or defend the North — but I think the problem here was that the writers overlooked the 7×06 scene because the reasons Dany stated for coming North did not match the reasons she told Sansa in 8×02. Dany came North because she saw the threat was real (“You have to see it to know. Now I know”), not for love of Jon (as stated in 8×02).
But I don’t think this was the writers’ intent to have this discrepancy be an in-universe issue or I think it would have been addressed, at least by Dany. But Dany had no reaction in this scene.
To me, it felt like the writers didn’t reveal Jon’s full reasons so they could avoid dealing with a full-fledged fall-out with the North — which would have made the task of uniting everyone to fight the Night King by 8×03 much harder and likely have taken time the story didn’t have to resolve. I think it’d be possible in an earlier season in which the pace was slower… but not so much in a 6-episode season 8 wherein they had to wrap the entire series up and get everyone together by 8×03. I think they’d have to devote real screentime to this storyline, time they didn’t have. That’s why I think they “greased” Jon’s reasoning in this scene.
At best, it would induce the other Northern lords to follow Glovers’ lead and pack up to head back home. At worst, it could lead to a full-out revolt against Jon and Dany. I doubt they’d be persuaded by anything Jon said. They weren’t even convinced by Jon’s need to see Dany in 7×02 to get the help the North required to survive because Dany was a Targaryen. They were ready to overthrow him just for leaving the North and seeing a Targaryen. The Night King didn’t seem that real in their minds.
In the Great Hall scene itself, with those who were present for Jon’s explanation, they were directing their anger at Jon rather than Dany. The Northern lords’ interactions with Dany, on the other hand, were pretty non-existent. Instead, Dany’s negative interactions were with Sansa, who did realize Jon’s true reasons for bending the knee and was not assuaged. That it was Sansa who figured out what was going on probably provided the writers with an opportunity to push the smart Sansa angle.
Likewise, it may lead into a conversation as to why Dany flew to Jon & co.’s rescue on a mission that led to the Night King getting a dragon, upon which he burned a hole into Westeros for immediate entry, which I don’t think would win any points with the Northern lords.
Personally, I thought actually witnessing Dany’s actions in helping fight the threat would make a difference but it doesn’t seem so.
Young Dragon,
You know what? Why don’t we all back away from the Dark Dany debate. That dead horse 🐎 has been beaten enough. Like Sansa concealing KotV, the debate could go on in perpetuity. I withdraw any insinuation of violating the Moderation Policy, okay?
How about a Musical Interlude having nothing to do with Dany to lighten things up? A little while ago, I posted different one, dedicated to Sandor Clegane, under the 2021 Calendar page.)
Let’s see… 🤔
Yes please! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Part 1 of 2
For a thematic connection to the next Musical Interlude, here’s a link to Tron79’s Alice in Wonderland + Arya mashup video (“Arya and Alice together at last”)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZOXGce37HE
to be continued…
Ten Bears,
Thanks! I really enjoyed this from Tron!!
(Speaking of poster-made goods… did you see the rocket I had laser cut in the calendar thread? 😀 I also posted pictures of the lasers themselves! But not of the big laser. Next time!)
Ten Bears,
Part 2 of 2
Prelude:
Rabbit Stew Sally (S4e3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXZi0mdAbM
🐇
Their shared (terrible) table-manners is an oddly sweet moment XD;;;
(Cont. from above)
Musical Interlude
Dedicated to Rabbit Stew Sally (and Tron79)
🐇 “White Rabbit” (1967; audio)
– Jefferson Airplane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUY2kJE0AZE
🐇 “White Rabbit” (live at Woodstock 1969)
– Jefferson Airplane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsuAe1bjWfo
🐇
Ten Bears,
I remember first hearing this song on Gilmore Girls in the 6th season — and nice Alice connect!
Ten Bears,
I just don’t understand why you accused me of breaking the policy in the first place.
I have no problem debating Dany’s actions, but I’m almost never the one who starts it. If you’re tired of having this debate, perhaps you should send a message to Shelle to “Let it Go.”
Adrianacandle,
The two scenes were written by two different writers. But regardless, she could have two reasons for riding North.
I’m not sure about the writers, but I’m sure Jon didn’t tell them he bent the knee willingly because he wanted to avoid a revolt. I’m sure that, like Arya, the northmen at least could understand Jon bending the knee for her support against the White Walkers. If they discovered Danerys was going to assist anyway, they would have been furious with Jon and demanded Danerys return the North to them.
The northern lords learned from experience with the Mad King not to openly question Targaryen rule. They didn’t know Danerys or her temperament, so I don’t blame them in adopting a passive aggressive approach, especially after what happened with the Tarlys.
I’m sure the northern lords would have warmed to Danerys after the battle if she hadn’t taken their kingdom.
A trailer for 1991 film where British actor/comedian Lenny Henry went ‘white face’ to escape the Mafia. It wasn’t commercially successful. I don’t know how close LH comes to an authentic American accent (I can only spot dodgy English accents). Maybe nowadays a black person doing ‘white face’ would be as questionable as a white person going ‘black face’ but this was back in 1991 so 29 years ago. https://youtu.be/7JBXtVrGmaI
Young Dragon,
The problem for me is that her 8×02 reasoning wasn’t part of her reasoning in 7×06 (and 7×07) and I think her reasons in 7×07 and 7×06 are more practical — that she realized the Night King was really a threat to the kingdom she wanted to rule and they needed to defeat him. There was emotion in it too — the Night King killed her dragon. But in 8×02, Dany called this “Jon’s war” and that she was only there for love of Jon. As was established, Dany had plenty of non-Jon related reasons to come, it was in her own interest as well, and in 7×06/7×07, Dany seemed to realize that, that this was a threat coming for them all, it wasn’t just “Jon’s war.”
I think she gave this reasoning to Sansa to reassure her that she had no ulterior motives and she didn’t. I also think this might have been meant to give the impression of Dany being more emotional rather than practical in season 8.
As for Jon, I think this was more a writer issue in them wanting to avoid a revolt (since it really doesn’t seem like they had time for one in season 8’s limited time frame) rather than a character reason (or I think they would have had Dany react in that scene and/or address it with Jon). As it was, the Northern lords were already furious with Jon and didn’t appear to regard Jon any better — but worse — and their regard for him had been going down over season 7 until they were ready to overthrow him in 7×05. They’ve expressed anti-Targaryen sentiments since 7×02, before most of the events in season 7, and probably in no small part due to Aerys’s actions.
As to the rest, I think that’s been debated over and over and it doesn’t look like any of us are changing our minds anytime soon. This is something that can go on forever. I also thought Dany would have considered giving back the North their independence as she was willing to allow Yara to maintain Ironborn independence on the condition that there be no raping or raiding… but I guess not. However, this is me stepping into the Dark Dany debate and as mentioned by Ten Bears, maybe it’s best for me to step away from that too.
Maybe — per Ten Bears’ suggestion — we should all let it go for a while? Or at least with this debate. I don’t know if it’s going to any fruitful/productive/new places but rather, has us stating our positions over and over again without budging. And I say that on behalf of my input too. I haven’t really changed my position either. We can speculate/argue/debate this topic until the cows come home but I don’t know how much gain there is in this particular discussion anymore? It seems to be becoming stressful :/
For something a bit light, from 1979 “Hey Kitty” by a group called Racey (sorry the video only has stills). This was the song that Toni Basil had a hit with in 1982 but changing Kitty to Mickey so that she would be singing about a man. I don’t know whether Racey could dance as well as Toni Basil,
Dame of Mercia,
Thanks for this, Dame of Mercia 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Like I said, I don’t start these debates, I simply don’t run from them. I agree not to provoke arguments in the near future, but if someone else makes a comment I don’t agree with, I won’t hesitate to respond.
Of course, I wouldn’t expect you or anyone to not respond if you disagree with something. I certainly don’t hold back 😉 Just for the sake of this debate and because I think we’ve gotten to the point where it’s sort of circling, maybe we should all consider calling a truce? (And hopefully, if Shelle comes back to this thread, she’ll agree too?)
Adrianacandle,
Sounds good.
Thank-you! 🙂 Hopefully, it works for other participants too!
To borrow a page from Ten Bears and Dame of Mercia, to lighten things up….
(Queen Cersei Reads Insults from The Bachelor)
Just adding something here, I really wonder if people would still “cheer for scene” if Dany’s sack of Astapor, which is generally demeed as one of her most “badass moments”, was shot from same perspective as The Bells a.k.a seeing Unsullied and Dothraki storming through the streets and killing thousands of (likely unarmed) people in all gruesome detail. Because what Dany ordered there was basically a genocide of all non-slave population, and judging by the size of the city, I think we speak in ten thousands people being killed and executed. The only thing she specified there was for them to not kill any kids (or in novels, no kid under 12). So technically, what was happening there was not that much different from The Bells only we were spared the ugly picture. I truly wonder what people’s reaction would be if this was shot differently… I know my girlfriend, who loves Dany, didn’t consider what actually happened at Astapor until I pointed it out and then she corrected her statement and said she doesn’t really approve the act itself but more that the scene gave her thrill.
With all due respect, this is the kind of Dark Dany debate I don’t want to get into for now and one I do make efforts to avoid nowadays because I’ve found it exhausting in the past. In my experience, it’s led to frustrating and endless back-and-forths. I disagree with some points, I think there are differences between Astapor and KL, but that’s only my view of it. This is also a discussion I agreed to call a truce over in this thread so I’d like to bow out of this particular subject for now.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Oh crap, I’m sorry! I only just realized you were probably addressing Young Dragon and not me! (I got confused with the two linked names — you were quoting a message in which Young Dragon was addressing me but you weren’t addressing me specifically). I’m sorry! Please disregard my reply! I got to learn to read better ^^;;;;; I’m sorry again!
Cows? Did you say cows?
https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/461131735385014272-png__700.jpg
🐮👸🏻
That’s a proud looking cow!
(I didn’t even recognize MW at first! She’s so young in this photo! Speaking of MW, she’s due to appear on The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon on Aug 19.)
Adrianacandle,
”Queen Cersei Reads Insults from The Bachelor)”
—
Oh my, this was good! I had never seen it. Gonna go rewatch it a whole bunch of times.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Excellent point about perspective.
Isn’t LH great? I was looking for the Melisandre Baby Shower skit for my friend because she just had a baby last week (she didn’t get a rattle sword…) and this popped up XD
“Let’s be honest — who wants a f****** virgin?” XD
Thanks. And I think the same would apply to The Bells if for example there was only a shot of Dany’s angry face and then she would charge on the dragon and the scene would fade to black and the next shot would be just a sight of scorched city. I imagine such scene would be a lot more “easy to stomach” when it comes to Dany’s character, especially when it comes to people who love or loved her. It’s just interesting to me how exposition can easily influence someone’s “inner feelings”.
In the show, didn’t Dany only have the slave masters killed in Astapor? I don’t recall anyone else being killed or being ordered to be killed. I honestly don’t remember though.
And I do generally agree about perspective. It makes it much easier to empathize with whomever’s perspective we’re seeing. Though, it can also have the opposite affect at times. It can make you disagree with a character’s choices even more when the true motivations become clearer.
Dame of Mercia,
”I don’t know whether Racey could dance as well as Toni Basil…”
Nobody could. Nobody can.
They did tone down her novel line and removed the “kill anyone who wears a tokar” and also the “spare all children under 12”. But whether it changes the context of sack of Astapor, I don’t know. Maybe the Unsullied themselves didn’t just kill everyone on their way but I’m very sure former slaves did and if we were given the POV from inside the city at that time, I don’t think it would be much different than the Bells.
Possibly. It’s an interesting debate. From what I recall in the show, Dany took the Unsullied, had them kill the Slavers, and then they got out of there immediately afterwards. It was definitely a much more sanitized version than the books. No innocents were killed, while there were thousands of innocents killed in KL. I’d say the show versions of both sackings were very different.
If the show had Dany do what she did in the books then I think it would’ve been a better example of her potential ability to torch KL and thousands of innocent civilians. later on. Of course, I’m sure the writers probably felt that would’ve tipped their hand too much, so that’s probably why they sanitized what she did in Astapor.
Yes but it’s still debatable how “clean” the sack of Astapor actually was. Obviously, no pillaging is ever clean. Yes, in case if Dany’s order really applied only to slave traders and not the non-slave population, then I imagine the Unsullied only did that and left. But Unsullied also had task to free every slave in the city and when people, who have been opressed for their entire life, get free and exact revenge… I imagine ugly stuff follows when it comes to Astapor citizens so if we got a POV shot of the city, I don’t think it would have been pretty.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Sure, but you could make a lot of assumptions about a lot of things unless it’s specifically shown or addressed onscreen to say otherwise.
Take Arya killing all the Freys, for example. We just assume that everyone she killed had a hand in the Red Wedding even though it’s a stretch to poison/carve up an entire castle full of people without having any collateral damage whatsoever. Luckily, she stopped the girl Frey from partaking. Nothing like that is ever clean though.
If something like that can happen without innocents getting killed, then I could believe that Dany sacked Astapor without killing innocents unless shown otherwise.
By the way, this isn’t to dispute the merits of Dany burning KL in the end. I was trying to remember how the show handled Dany’s “sacking” of Astapor, and from what I recall, there weren’t any signs of what Dany would later do to KL.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That’s a great point. The reason I leave Dany’s actions regarding Astapor out of my argument is because of the way the show cuts away from much of the destruction. From the show, we only see Danerys attacking that one small area, not the entire city, so it’s unclear how many people were actually killed, and the amount of collateral damage. You’re right, though. It could very well have been as bad as The Bells.
Mr Derp,
Well and I was pointing out the Sack of Astapor in comparison to King’s Landing. Because as much as it may not be explicitly stated there was a genocide on non-slave population, it’s also never explicitly stated that the Sack of Astapor happened without innocent casualities… in fact, we have a book version which is way more explicitly a genocide. I haven’t rewatched the show yet but who knows, with “The Bells” in mind, maybe Sack of Astapor gets a different light. Same with “Breaking the Wheel” speech… when that scene aired, I remember most people interpretating it as restoring some new system, some early democracy. And I was personally hoping for such scenario myself if I wanted to like Dany as protagonist. But there was this dreaded other possibility that by “breaking the wheel”, it means she won’t just submit noble houses to herself but totally destroy them. And then her speech in the finale indeed indicated that “Breaking the wheel” speech had much darker meaning but as we don’t see inside Dany’s head, we couldn’t know what was she actually thinking through her scenes. We saw what we were shown.
As for Arya killing the Freys, I did absolutely zero cheering there as the whole sequence was overly brutal for me. Also, I don’t even get why are people saying House Frey is extinct as Arya obviously didn’t poison the young children and I’m sure there are manyunderage kids with last name Frey
Yes, it’s ambigous/open for interpretation show-wise how much damage was actually caused there but I do think it’s something to consider about after “The Bells”. But Astapor or not Astapor, the other scenes like crucifying the masters or feeding that nobleman to the dragon and such were obviously there for some reason as they were all shot in very “disapproving” manner. Same with burning the Tarlys. So clearly, her darker side was foreshadowed to some extent but until final episodes, I wasn’t sure which path will she take.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out how exposition and perspective on certain scenes can be very influencing on audience. Of course at the end of the day, it depends on individual person how they grasp some scene and considering we don’t have access to characters’ minds on TV, there’s a lot open for interpretation why they act the way they act. Some conclusion I personalyl formed though is that all main protagonists in GoT are “messed up” in one way or another and as much as they grew as people, they’re still damaged in their own ways at the end of the story.
Mr Derp,
Take Arya killing all the Freys, for example. We just assume that everyone she killed had a hand in the Red Wedding even though it’s a stretch to poison/carve up an entire castle full of people without having any collateral damage whatsoever. Luckily, she stopped the girl Frey from partaking. Nothing like that is ever clean though.
The speech which Arya gives, whilst wearing Walder’s face, clearly indicates she took great care in selecting the guest list of future poison victims. “Walder” then goes on to sneer sarcastically that the assembled men’s killing of pregnant Talisa and unarmed Cat showed these men were “proper heroes.” Given that Arya was a fully-trained assassin, this viewer at least takes her at her word, that she killed only guilty Freys. (For all the show derides poison as “a woman’s weapon,” in the hands of the right woman, it becomes a weapon which can be carefully targeted. Dragons, not so much.)
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I did absolutely zero cheering there as the whole sequence was overly brutal for me.
The actors did indeed do a great job of showing the slow and painful deaths Arya had inflicted upon their characters. The entire scene makes for great material to consider. Was Arya doing justice? Yes, a rough form of it. Was she committing mass murder? Yes, most definitely. Was she revenge-killing in the name of her family? Yes. While I answered yes to all, how many (if any) of these interpretations are valid depends upon each individual viewer.
(I did a fair amount of cheering, but only because the “deaths” were of guilty fictional characters in a world where rough justice is often the only kind. In our world, Arya would be tried for mass murder and convicted, no matter how much evidence she had for what the male Freys had done.)
“That was way harsh.”
– Voice of Cher in my mind when I read the quote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY0bHULptWQ
—
That’s pretty much the perfect response!
(I typically hear Cher whenever I hear ‘harsh’ — Cher or Rachel from Friends — “I don’t get to go to my own prom! This is so harsh!”).
My favourite exchange from that movie:
Dad; What the hell is that?!
Cher: A dress!
Dad: Says who?
Cher: Calvin Klein.
Adrianacandle,
One of my favorites too! Along with Cher’s mid-epiphany aside, “I wonder if they have those in my size?” (distracted by shoes in storefront showroom).
Yes! I love that one too! And her inspiring Dad’s 50th birthday RSVP speech!
Ten Bears,
here it is, at 0:42
Ten Bears,
What I really love about that clip is that when Cher has her mid-epiphany shopping detour and we cut back to her internal monologue, she now has a shopping bag in hand as she ruminates.
Teeny detail but I laugh everytime XD
Adrianacandle,
I never noticed that she resumed the internal monologue with a shopping bag in hand.
Anyway, final (?) Clueless thread detour: Cher gets mugged.
Pigeon,
So long as you remain interesting and sophisticated, refusing to be celebrated, I believe you’ll do alright. 😉
Then again, I’m a bloody Yank, so what do I know?
Ten Bears,
I love that when she’s wailing, it’s not about her life, it’s about having to lie down on the street in a dress that’s from a “Totally Important Designer” XD
……………..
That was weird… for a while your embedded video of Lena Headey disappeared and was replaced by something else. Now it’s back…
Anyway, here’s the link I retrieved, along with another Jimmy Kimmel appearance by Lena Headey in character as Cersei:
From 2016? Lena Headey, on Jimmy Kimmel show, reading insults from “The Bachelor” as Queen Cersei (2:22 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4oM564-h7k
“F*ck these bitches.”
—
From 2014, with Jimmy Kimmel: Lena Headey in character as Cersei, trading insults (2:52 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ngj2_Xjjsw
🍷
*GASP*
😍😍😍
Apparently you know the finer things. 😊
Thanks for these!
“That’s a lovely tie, shame it’s around such a worthless neck.”
(The switching link thing has happened with me too on occasion. I’m not sure why it happens…)
Adrianacandle,
I just realized that when I wrote that I was gonna rewatch the Lena Headey video “a whole bunch of times” … I was subconsciously channeling Reese Witherspoon in “Freeway” (1996) – which also co-starred Dan Hedaya, Cher’s father in “Clueless.”
Here are two scenes. ⚠️ Spoiler Alert
• From “Freeway”: Reese Witherspoon (as Vanessa) and Kiefer Sutherland (as Bob Wolverton) – 5:09 long clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP79k_z9fxo
Vanessa, at 2:57: “You wanna get shot a whole bunch of times!”
——
• Vanessa with detectives
(Dan Hedaya as Detective Wallace)
(5:33 long clip)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_N2oFAmnpM
at 0:19 – 0:36
Detective Wallace:
Vanessa:
Detective Breer:
Vanessa:
Ten Bears,
That’s actually a 90s Reese Witherspoon movie I had never seen!! Which is exciting because now it’s like I have a new movie to watch!!
My favorite Reese Witherspoon movie! She deserved the Oscar for “Walk the Line” and should’ve won an Oscar for her performance in “Freeway” though she was really young at the time.
“Freeway” is a twisted take on “Little Red Riding Hood.” Incidentally, aside from Dan Hedaya as the detective, also in “Freeway” are Brittany Murphy (Tai in “Clueless”); Alanna Ubach (ditzy sorority friend in “Legally Blonde”); Amanda Plummer (Honey Bunny in “Pulp Fiction”); and of course, Kiefer Sutherland. [Speaking of which, where’s JackBauer24 been lately?]
But “Freeway” is really a showcase for young Reese Witherspoon.
Ooh, thanks for this, Ten Bears! My first Reese Witherspoon movie was Cruel Intentions and I only very recently saw Legally Blonde for the first time two weeks ago (I had been meaning to get around to it for years but the right mood needed to strike and when it did, I kept forgetting). I’m pretty excited to try these out! 🙂
I personally never “cheer” when main protagonists commit various killings and executions that are outside battles or conflicts or self-defense. I almost always find it unsettling when they do so and I had these thoughts in most if not all such GoT scenes as well, especialyl when executions are really brutal. Yes, there are characters who are terrible and such but when main protagonists exact revenge, especially in situations when the enemy has already surrendered for example, I more feel it’s not about justice but more about their personal vendetta. That’s why I was unsettled regarding Arya’s killings, same with Sansa feeding Ramsay to his dogs, Dany’s crucifying of masters and such. And I could apply this to other TV shows too.
Oh, look who was the choreographer on “Legally Blonde.” Toni Basil.