Matt Smith says he’s looking forward to “riding a few dragons” in House of the Dragon

24th Annual Screen Actors Guild Awards, Arrivals, Los Angeles, USA - 21 Jan 2018

By now, I’m sure you’ve heard that Matt Smith, of Doctor Who and The Crown fame has been cast as the Rogue Prince himself, Daemon Targaryen in House of the Dragon. During a recent Q&A with GalaxyCon Live, Smith was asked what he’s looking forward to most about the role.

Smith’s response was enthusiastic. “Well, God, everything,” he began. “I think it’ll be a really exciting cast. I think it’s a wonderful sort of legacy to be part of and a wonderful world. It’s a great part and, without saying too much […] I’m just sort of looking forward to riding a few dragons.

“If I get to,” he added. “I mean, I don’t know. Who knows what goes on in this world? […] I’m just looking forward to getting started and I think, hopefully, I think with the people involved it could be really exciting.”

The casting choice has been divisive amongst fans thus far but I, for one, am thrilled that he’s on board and excited to see what he brings to the part.

89 responses

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    1. About that Galaxycon tweet for the (12/12/20?) Dr. Who – Game of Thrones Prequel Q & A:

      “In the @galaxyconlive Q&A featuring Matt Smith, Karen Gillan, Jenna Coleman, & Arthur Darvill, Host @PttyHwkns asked #MattSmith about the #GameOfThrones Prequel. See what Matt says!”

      Did anyone ask him about any other GoT-Dr. Who crossovers? Quite a few GoT cast members also appeared in Dr. Who throughout the years.
      Perhaps

      Ashildr could travel back in time and space to mess with the pompous dragon riders…

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    2. I was not a big fan of the long stringy blonde hair on Viserys and Rhaegar in GoT. I hope HotD improves on that or does away with the Targ “look.”

      Matt Smith in a blonde or silver wig? I don’t know…

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    3. He looks like a black-haired Captain Strickland in that picture.

      And one wonders what sort of dragons he’ll be riding ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

      I’ll show myself out.

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    4. ”I think it’ll be a really exciting cast. I think it’s a wonderful sort of legacy to be part of and a wonderful world…

      ….. “Who knows what goes on in this world? […] I’m just looking forward to getting started and I think, hopefully, I think with the people involved it could be really exciting.”

      ——
      I’ve noticed from some of the history and lore reported by commenters here that many of the Fire & Blood/HotD characters have familiar last names from GoT, e.g., Arryn and Hightower.
      Will we see the direct ancestors of familiar GoT characters, and maybe some “call-forwards” (can’t very well have call-backs)? That way HotD can pay homage to GoT without overt name-dropping.

      Oh, another question if you don’t mind:
      Are prophecies and intervention of “the gods” part of the lore of the time period and setting of HotD?
      I noticed a reference to “the gods flipping a coin” in the casting description for Daemon T or one of the other principal Targ characters. What “gods” would that refer to?

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    5. Pigeon: He seems to approach everything he does with enthusiasm, which is always a bonus.

      I liked that a lot too! 🙂

      Ten Bears,

      Oh, another question if you don’t mind:
      Are prophecies and intervention of “the gods” part of the lore of the time period and setting of HotD?

      Yeah, I’d say the same lore and prophecies (if over 200 years old) would still be part of this world as HotD occurs in the same universe about 200 years prior to the events of ASOIAF/GoT.

      I noticed a reference to “the gods flipping a coin” in the casting description for Daemon T or one of the other principal Targ characters. What “gods” would that refer to?

      I think it’s more a saying, both in-universe and the way it’s used in the casting description, rather than a true prophecy. In ASOIAF, this saying is only mentioned once and is credited to King Jaehaerys Targaryen II (whose Kingsguard a young Barristan Selmy served in) — but more as a contemplation instead of anything prophetic (it doesn’t have roots in anything magical). Jaehaerys II lived from 225AC to 262AC and reigned from 259AC to his death, more than 100 years after the events of HotD.

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    6. Viewers of The Crown know just how much experience Matt Smith already has in playing a petulant, cranky prince. 😉

      Seriously, these early cast and crew decisions already bode well for this show. Here’s hoping the writing supports these fine folks and their grand ambition.

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    7. Adrianacandle,

      a few Olivia Clarke comments and a few HDM comments

      I have a couple episodes left of Vanity Fair with OC. I read reviews of the show. Alot say OC is too pretty for the role. She doesn’t have the Hollywood starlet look like Nicole Kidman (as we discussed in the movie version of HDM). I don’t want to say too much about her looks since that is very subjective. I ordered Dangerous Women 1 which includes the GRRM novella “The Princess and the Queen”. I think that will give me a better idea of how Alicent is meant to be played. I think OC is a bit of a chameleon. She played a very believable teenager even though she was older at the time. And she played a believable young adult as well.

      With HDM
      Bella Ramsay had a nice screaming scene! She was not happy!
      I was trying to remember the differences between the show and books on details like

      the fight between Lyra and her mom. Did that happen in the books with their daemons fighting? I don’t recall.

      I don’t have too much to say. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. The plot is just kind of moving along the way it should. I guess my main reaction is that it’s all setup for season 3. Of course the big Alamo scene should be coming up. That won’t be as much of a heartbreaker since I read the books! But it should still be a powerful episode. I’m thinking perhaps they will save it for the finale?

      How did Mary Malone get to the Mulefa world in the books? Did Will open up a window? I don’t recall….. frustrating!

      I do know that the angels said they would protect her from the specters but they didn’t say anything about that in the show yet. I was thinking as a show viewer that she would be swallowed up immediately since Lord Boreal just finished telling Mrs. Coulter about the dangers. Of course, Mrs. Coulter will figure out how to use them to her advantage…

      I will be interested to see how the Angels are depicted with special effects. I do like the witches zooming in and out. I have heard some criticism that those scenes are too fast (over and done). I quite like the special effects for the witches, however the story was better in the books.

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    8. I always imagined Becky in ‘Vanity Fair’ as being pretty. Looking at Wikimisleadia (I didn’t think of that name) Becky has in the past been played by (but this is not an exclusive list of adaptations) on TV Susan Hampshire (1967), Eve Matheson (1987), Natasha Little (1998) and in a film in 2004 by Reese Witherspoon. I don’t think any of them would crack a mirror if they looked at it.

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    9. Tron79,

      I ordered Dangerous Women 1 which includes the GRRM novella “The Princess and the Queen”. I think that will give me a better idea of how Alicent is meant to be played.

      Oh, good! I think “The Rogue Prince” is helpful if you want to get to know Matt Smith’s character (Daemon) more 🙂

      I just watched 2×06 last night and I think Bella Ramsay has a really nice scene in that episode!

      the fight between Lyra and her mom. Did that happen in the books with their daemons fighting? I don’t recall.

      No, I believe that is a show-only scene (as is the Mary and Coulter meeting, which I did really enjoy). In the books, we don’t see Mrs Coulter and Lyra together until the beginning of Amber Skyglass when Mrs Coulter has taken Lyra to that cave to hide her from the Church.

      You know, that confrontation and the tears in Lyra and Mrs Coulter’s eyes kind of reminded me of this Amber Spyglass passage:

      [Mrs Coulter] “Lyra! Lyra, my daughter, my dear one! Lyra, don’t go! Don’t go!”

      Lyra looked down at her, anguished; but then she stepped over her mother’s body and loosened Mrs. Coulter’s feeble clutch from her ankle.

      The woman was sobbing now; Will saw the tears glistening on her cheeks.
      Crouching just beside the cave mouth, the three children waited until there was a brief pause in the shooting, and then followed the dragonflies as they darted down the path. The light had changed: as well as the cold anbaric gleam from the zeppelins’ floodlights, there was the leaping orange of flames.

      Will looked back once. In the glare Mrs. Coulter’s face was a mask of tragic passion, and her daemon clung piteously to her as she knelt and held out her arms, crying:

      “Lyra! Lyra, my love! My heart’s treasure, my little child, my only one! Oh, Lyra, Lyra, don’t go, don’t leave me! My darling daughter, you’re tearing my heart…”

      And a great and furious sob shook Lyra herself, for, after all, Mrs. Coulter was the only mother she would ever have, and Will saw a cascade of tears run down the girl’s cheeks.

      I thought the acting in this scene between Ruth Wilson and Dafne Keene was pretty great. I don’t think I loved Lyra having Pan attack Mrs Coulter’s golden monkey so much, I thought that was kind of overkill and a bit odd for Lyra’s character, but I really liked the acting.

      Unfortunately, I’m less and less moved by Will (or at least, not nearly as much as I was with him in the books). I was overtly wanting Lyra to stay in Mrs Coulter’s storyline because I think that’d be more interesting (and… I like Mrs Coulter better than Will here XD;; Which is… alarming) while I’d be cool if they let Will run off to some storyline offscreen XD;;

      I don’t have too much to say. I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. The plot is just kind of moving along the way it should. I guess my main reaction is that it’s all setup for season 3.

      That’s my thinking too — but I really liked the Mrs Coulter/Mary and Mrs Coulter/Lyra stuff. I really really like Mary and the actress they chose for her. I think I’m more invested in her character than I was in the books. And I think Mary has a really touching scene in 2×06 🙂

      Of course the big Alamo scene should be coming up. That won’t be as much of a heartbreaker since I read the books! But it should still be a powerful episode. I’m thinking perhaps they will save it for the finale?

      I imagine so. I think 2×07 is the finale D: So close…

      How did Mary Malone get to the Mulefa world in the books? Did Will open up a window? I don’t recall….. frustrating!

      No Will involved there. At the very end of her storyline in Subtle Knife, Mary tricks her way into accessing the window by pretending to be from the Department of Physical Sciences to investigate something quite peculiar in a tent and once she goes into the tent, she finds…

      He stood back and let her unlace the flap of the tent. She hoped he wouldn’t see the shaking of her hands. Clutching the rucksack to her breast, she stepped through. Deceive the guardian—well, she’d done that; but she had no idea what she would find inside the tent. She was prepared for some sort of archaeological dig; for a dead body; for a meteorite. But nothing in her life or her dreams had prepared her for that square yard or so in midair, or for the silent sleeping city by the sea that she found when she stepped through it.

      ___

      I do know that the angels said they would protect her from the specters but they didn’t say anything about that in the show yet. I was thinking as a show viewer that she would be swallowed up immediately since Lord Boreal just finished telling Mrs. Coulter about the dangers.

      I think the show did — when Mary was talking to the Cave in 2×04, the angels tell her, “You will be protected,” which confuses Mary.

      Of course, Mrs. Coulter will figure out how to use them to her advantage…

      Oh boy, does she evil.. er, ever! XD

      I will be interested to see how the Angels are depicted with special effects. I do like the witches zooming in and out. I have heard some criticism that those scenes are too fast (over and done). I quite like the special effects for the witches, however the story was better in the books.

      Yeah, I’ve seen some book readers on Reddit not happy with the witches storyline in HDM. As for the angels, you get a little look in 2×06 😉

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    10. Tron79,

      ”I think OC is a bit of a chameleon. She played a very believable teenager even though she was older at the time. And she played a believable young adult as well…”

      I was going to say something similar about Olivia Clarke’s ability to change her appearance. With the understanding that “beauty” is subjective, after watching trailers for her movies and TV shows, I marveled at how she could play “frumpy” and “plain” as well as gorgeous and glamorous. She’s almost unrecognizable from one role to the next. Sort of like

      a certain Many-Faced Goddess.

      I may post links to some of those trailers. However, as I think you’ve already remarked, her upcoming movie “Pixie” looks like it’s going to be a lot of fun.

      P.S. Based on your recommendation, I’ve got OC’s movie “Me and Earl and the Dying Girl” on my To Watch List. Unfortunately it’s not on cable or available On Demand. Likewise, from interviews and outtakes, I’d like to see her performance in Steven Spielberg’s “Ready Player One,” but that’s no longer available on my cable lineup or On Demand.

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    11. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks for the response. Yes I am looking forward to reading the novella. I also plan on reading the Rogue Prince after I finish the other one. The novella length is also nice instead of jumping into another 1000 page book. But if TWOW ever is released I’ll be happy to read all 2000 pages 🙂

      A couple other HDM comments

      With Mary I was trying to remember how she got from citagazze to the other world. She goes from her world through the tent to get to citagazze but then she has to find another window in citagazze doesn’t she?

      I did appreciate the scene with Mrs Coulter marveling at the role of women in our world as compared to hers. It made me think of the nun Juana Inés de la Cruz and how it was so difficult to be accepted in the religious world of men (I saw her life story awhile back)

      I do like how Lord Boreal loves the luxuries.

      I think every person in the Magasterium has an insect or reptile as a daemon. It was looking pretty creepy last episode.

      I would think Lyra has the advantage in daemon fights since her daemon hasn’t settled. She can turn into a polar bear if she wants. But I’m not sure if she has that much control. I think the first time the monkey attacked her back in season 1, she was so surprised she couldn’t react fast enough to change into something more threatening. I do quite like Lyra’s latest favorite daemon with the furry face and two tones fur. I’m not quite sure what it is.

      And I agree about Will. I find his acting very one note. He just seems flabbergasted most of the time.

      One detail I’m missing is that the blood doesn’t stop on his hand in the books. It’s a major concern that isn’t healed until the end of the 2nd book. Yes he looked in pain the first day but now his bandage is just a little stained. In the books I got the feeling he was constantly dripping and losing blood so much he may not make it.

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    12. Ten Bears,

      Yeah I see some similarities with OC and MW, but MW has more attitude. I think OC’s Pixie role is very similar in tone to MW’s Two Weeks to Live.

      So Me and Earl and the Dying Girl is on Amazon Prime or Google Play. It’s probably not on regular cable channels at the moment.

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    13. Adrianacandle,

      A GOT spotting in Vanity Fair.
      Ellie Kendrick has a small part. I thought I recognized her in earlier episodes. I was thinking it could be her. She plays Jane Osborne. It’s a very small part but she did just have an important scene in episode 5 I just watched.

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    14. Well, there better be flippin’ dragons and dragon riding! It’s a period when there were a bunch of ’em.
      Daemon himself was a badass warrior riding Caraxes and wielding Dark Sister. At some point we should also have Vhagar, Syrax and Silverwing. There’s also the Dragonpit dragons, Dreamfyre, Tyraxes, Morghul and Shrykos; the wild dragons on Dragonstone, Cannibal and Sheepstealer; and if the story goes long enough there’s Rhaena’s young dragon, Morning.
      It would certainly be expensive to create them all but it needs a handful of them in there (done as well as GoT)! 🙂

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    15. Ten Bears,

      Just a side by side comparison of MW and OC.
      Here’s Lady Me standing beside a smaller photo of OC in Vanity Fair.
      http://www.73chickens.com/ladyme.html

      I chose the OC photo because she had a red dress and a similar expression.
      But I think you can see MW is all attitude and has those eyebrows. OC is fantastic though in all the roles I’ve seen her. MW just has that extra attitude that Arya needed.

      BTW, I had more trouble understanding Maisie’s native accent when she talks fast. As an American, it was hard for me to pickup everything she said in her iBoy role when she was bantering with schoolmates, for example. She did slow it down some as Lady Me in Dr. Who. OC seems to have a really good grasp on using different accents.

      Clob,

      I can’t wait to see Dark Sister wielded! I am a bit critical of GOT’s use of dragon flying. Most of riding scenes weren’t necessary IMHO or had issues for me. The whole Jon/Danny magic carpet ride date was a bit much for me. I had problems with how they had Jon riding so long during the Long Night episode. The shot above the clouds was cool though. Also, they have the problem of Dany being able to see from her riding position when Drogon burns the ship.

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    16. Tron79,

      With Mary I was trying to remember how she got from citagazze to the other world. She goes from her world through the tent to get to citagazze but then she has to find another window in citagazze doesn’t she?

      From what I recall, I think Mary uses divination to actually lead to or create a window to the mulefa when she’s in the citagazze.

      I did appreciate the scene with Mrs Coulter marveling at the role of women in our world as compared to hers. It made me think of the nun Juana Inés de la Cruz and how it was so difficult to be accepted in the religious world of men (I saw her life story awhile back)

      Me too. I think that adds something a bit extra to Mrs Coulter’s character that isn’t really explored in the books — the differences of roles women can take in our world vs. her world.

      I do like how Lord Boreal loves the luxuries.

      I had thought that was a great touch as well… and that Mrs Coulter, er, didn’t.

      I think every person in the Magasterium has an insect or reptile as a daemon. It was looking pretty creepy last episode.

      I noticed that a few episodes back too. We’ve got spiders, large beetles, snakes, and lizards. Nobody (save for Mrs Coulter) has anything fuzzy.

      I would think Lyra has the advantage in daemon fights since her daemon hasn’t settled. She can turn into a polar bear if she wants. But I’m not sure if she has that much control. I think the first time the monkey attacked her back in season 1, she was so surprised she couldn’t react fast enough to change into something more threatening. I do quite like Lyra’s latest favorite daemon with the furry face and two tones fur. I’m not quite sure what it is.

      Yeah, I don’t think Lyra has total control over the shape her daemon takes. I think Pan takes the shape of something that is the best reflect of her soul at that time.

      When Lyra and Mrs Coulter had that confrontation, there was also vulnerability there so while Lyra had Pan fight Mrs Coulter’s golden monkey (and pretty viciously), perhaps it wasn’t in her to have something like a bear or lion attack her mother’s daemon. As the Amber Skyglass passage notes, Mrs Coulter is the only mother Lyra will ever have, even if she is sheer evil 😉 Plus, Lyra knows Mrs Coulter has protected her from the daemon splicing (thus why, in the show, Lyra used ‘mother’ to call out to Mrs Coulter in that moment). So I think Lyra, as much as she may hate it, still has vulnerability when it comes to Mrs Coulter (and Asriel).

      One detail I’m missing is that the blood doesn’t stop on his hand in the books. It’s a major concern that isn’t healed until the end of the 2nd book. Yes he looked in pain the first day but now his bandage is just a little stained. In the books I got the feeling he was constantly dripping and losing blood so much he may not make it.

      Yeah. In these episodes, it seems like it’s just a cut that’s not really hindering him that much XD;;

      Clob: Daemon himself was a badass warrior riding Caraxes and wielding Dark Sister. At some point we should also have Vhagar, Syrax and Silverwing. There’s also the Dragonpit dragons, Dreamfyre, Tyraxes, Morghul and Shrykos; the wild dragons on Dragonstone, Cannibal and Sheepstealer; and if the story goes long enough there’s Rhaena’s young dragon, Morning.
      It would certainly be expensive to create them all but it needs a handful of them in there (done as well as GoT)! 🙂

      I’m looking forward to this too (and I wonder if they’ll show the scenes of the various dragonseeds trying… and failing… to tame the wild dragons of Dragonstone? Until Nettles comes along and tames Sheepstealer).

      Also, kind of looking forward to all of the colours and designs they’ll use for the dragons! 🙂

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    17. Tron79: A GOT spotting in Vanity Fair.
      Ellie Kendrick has a small part. I thought I recognized her in earlier episodes. I was thinking it could be her. She plays Jane Osborne. It’s a very small part but she did just have an important scene in episode 5 I just watched.

      Oh, I nearly missed this post! Thanks for this!

      Speaking of Amazon Prime series and GoT sightings, I recently spotted Jonathan Pryce (the High Sparrow) in one of its series: “Tales from the Loop” 🙂

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    18. Clob,

      Me too! I found Tales from the Loop to be kind of like a series-long Black Mirror-esque exploration of technology but with a far more sci-fi twist. Really interesting concepts explored, especially with its focus on time/passage of time/preservation of moments in time.

      And Jonathan Pryce has a fairly prominent role 🙂

      Another series I found somewhat similar (but more alike to Black Mirror’s anthology setup) is Philip K. Dick’s Electric Dreams, which I also really liked!

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    19. Clob,

      It will be extremely interesting to see which Dragon get cut. I mean it will happen and I bet I won’t be pleased. Sure you can cut FAegon, Penny and Lady Stoneheart and I may feel bad though not vocal, but cut one dragon and you’ll get an earful 😡 :p

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    20. TormundsWoman:
      Adrianacandle,

      😳 I skimmed the thread first and all I could see was “Dick’s Electric Dreams”. I obviously sometimes miss the immaturity of the past posters of ASoIaF.

      “Dick’s Electric Dreams” would be 75% correct…! And may draw an interesting audience 😉

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    21. Tron79,

      Also, they have the problem of Dany being able to see from her riding position when Drogon burns the ship.

      Drogon had watched his brother get shot out of the sky by Clown Prince Euron, from aboard exactly that same ship*. Drogon did not need Dany’s direction to blow that ship* to matchsticks.

      *Keeping to Show-canon here, I do not believe anyone in-universe ever called it ‘the Silence.’ Now there’s a good reason to berate D&D!

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    22. Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,

      I don’t think Euron specifically called his ship “Silence” in the show, but there was this tongue-in-cheek exchange with Balon:

      Balon Greyjoy: “I heard you lost your mind during a storm on the Jade Sea. They tied you to the mast to keep you from jumping overboard.”

      Euron Greyjoy: “They did.”

      Balon Greyjoy: “And when the storm passed, you cut out their tongues!”

      Euron Greyjoy: “I needed silence.”

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    23. I’m cautiously optimistic about this new show.

      All the actors they’ve cast so far are great, I’m sure. Miguel “Battle of the Bastards” Sapotcnik is showrunning…

      The fear I have is that this new show will be less court intrigue, less intimate character moments (high thread-count, as someone here, I’m sorry I forget who, said), more spectacle.

      Big spectacle might make the show popular but it might not be my kind of show. I’ll wait and see. Each to their own.

      I think I’ll be hampered by having read the world book and Fire and Blood part I. (I’ve been led to believe that Fire and Blood contains most of the novelettes “The Princess and the Queen” and “The Rogue Prince”.)

      OMG, I’m becoming a book purist, ha ha ha! 😀

      Not really. But it will be difficult to shake off prior book knowledge, and my opinions formed by the books, and approach this new show with an open mind.

      Alicent and Rhaenyra were both pretty horrible but I’m still leaning towards the Blacks. Alicent (and her father Otto Hightower) was such a devious, dishonourable, scheming bitch. Rhaenyra, “the realm’s delight”, isn’t much better, not a very nice person, or a good ruler.

      But the Blacks had the backing of several major houses, houses who kept their sworn oaths to uphold the King’s Will and Rheanyra as the heir. Including the Starks and the awesome, one and only Corlys Velaryion!

      I’ll just wait for Lord Cregan Stark to come down and sort out everything. With the help of Black Aly, Lady Alysanne Blackwood.

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    24. Apropås Corlys Velaryon.

      It seems rumors are going round that a black actor might be cast for the role (because diversity? Or because help tell a complex story?).

      Cue some of the fandom schreeching that the Velaryons were Valyrian, so whiter than white, with pale skin and silver hair and purple eyes, just like the ubermensch Targaryens. The heroic mariner Corlys Velaryon cannot possibly be black!

      From the point of view of the new show, House of the Dragon, and how the story unfolds in the books, I think it’s a stroke of genius to cast a black actor, to make Corlys Velaryon black.

      It makes one of the reasons for the war very visible.

      Corlys Velaryon (black) married a Targaryen princess (white). Their kids, Laenor and Leana would be “biracial”. Their kids’ kids with a white parent would be “quarterracial”, i.e. expected to have a darker skintone, dark, curly hair etc.

      Rheanyra’s first three kids look nothing like her husband Leanor Velaryon. The show makes pointing this out easy if Corlys Velaryon is black, his son is biracial, his grandsons should be “quarterracial”, but Rhaenyra’s firstborn son and his brothers might turn out very white…

      From the story perspective, the important thing is that Rheanyra’s first three kids don’t look like her husband. Making Corlys Velaryon black might not be a nod to “diversity” but a story convenience.

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    25. And I am looking forward to seeing him deliver the performance I know he can. I think he is often a quite underrated actor. I guess we will see.

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    26. Mr Derp,

      That would be a continuity error.

      Did we see them aboard his ship? Because sound carries very well over still water (there were no large waves at that moment) and a fusillade of ballista (‘scorpion’) bolts whizzes past Dany and Drogon as they wheel past the Iron Fleet. Those shouts could have been from another ship.

      Alternately, even Euron would have understood the need to have his own scorpion’s crew audible during a battle, even if his ship’s crew could not speak. His fleet’s scorpion crews might also have been recently supplied by Cersei, as Qyburn had the Iron Fleet’s ballistae built.

      Mr Derp,

      I don’t think Euron specifically called his ship “Silence” in the show, but there was this tongue-in-cheek exchange with Balon…

      I see what you did there. 😉

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    27. Pigeon:
      Pedro Pascal tonight on Jimmy Fallon. I mean, I just like looking at him, not gonna lie. 🤪

      Speaking of looking at Pedro Pascal, I watched the season finale of The Mandalorian today and.

      Pedro takes his helmet off in this episode! He also takes it off for a minute or so in the previous episode. They did something similar in season 1. He had to remove his helmet to get a special medical spray for a few seconds in season 1. I love that he took this part even though he can’t show his face. It’s a very humbling thing to do as an actor to have to hide your face for 99% of the series. And it has to be challenging not to be able to do facial expressions to emote. Btw it was an awesome season finale. I enjoyed this season. He also had to wear that armor and it didn’t look like cgi. In most movies nowadays it’s cgi armor. But Pedro looked like he was doing his fight scenes wearing the bulky armor.

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    28. Tron79,

      Yes, I definitely think that to play that kind of character, not only does he need to be able to express himself outside of facial expression, but it shows a certain lack of ego on the part of the actor. Anyone willing to act opposite a certain green muppet AND not show his face, well…I swear I can see that raised eyebrow behind the mask.😄

      Pedro has a great way of moving (Oberyn’s body language when interacting with other characters was very telling – slight tilt of the head, crossed arms, the way he walked, etc. told a lot about his attitude), and I think we see that with Mando.

      With all of the GoT connections to Star Wars, I’m pretty sure he’s won. 😄

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    29. Adrianacandle,

      (and others who were following our discussion on Olivia Clarke)

      So, I finally finished Vanity Fair today and I also read the first 20 pages of “The Princess and the Queen, or, the Blacks and the Greens”, so I have a teeny bit better idea of Queen Alicent (OC’s character). I hope to read more tonight.

      I don’t want to Pre Judge the Prequel but what else do I have to do while I wait 🙂 I’m not sure if OC can be Cersei-ish enough. I think someone else on WotW compared Alicent to Cersei. From the little I read so far, that sounds like it could be accurate.

      OC played a conniving character in Vanity Fair, but I have to say I almost didn’t finish the series. I did happen to watch the last two episodes today because I ran out of other things to watch! I really liked OC in the early episodes when I felt more for her. I could see her as a scrappy survivor. I could empathize with her character early on. Once she becomes totally soulless, I lost interest. I think part of that was that OC didn’t really play that side of the role as well for me. I stopped caring that she was a survivor. And she wasn’t nasty enough. She wasn’t the character I loved to hate, I guess. If I think about Cersei, I could hate what she did to the Starks, such as making them kill poor Lady. But I could love her when she said, “I choose violence.” It’s a love/hate relationship which makes characters so great. Perhaps it was just the book/script and it wasn’t OC’s fault. When she gets to the point of hitting her son and not caring about him at all, I guess I stopped feeling for Rebecca Sharp. Maybe that was the point and OC did a good job. Part I think is her face. She just looks too nice! I hope she can pull off Alicent.

      So for book readers, did I read it correctly that..

      Princess Rhaenyra was 55 years old?
      It didn’t say how old Queen Alicent was so far. I’m guessing OC will look about right for her character in her mid to late 20’s. But do you think they will find an actress in her mid 40’s or even 50’s for Princess Rhaenyra?

        Quote  Reply

    30. Tron79,

      I think I have confidence OC can pull it off. It’ll have been about three years (I think?) since Vanity Fair aired by the time they get to filming and sometimes, it depends on the material. For example, Sarah Michelle Gellar — I don’t think comedy is her strong suit, I thought it was generally a weak spot in her abilities and she’s stronger with drama, but I think she was able to do it well (for the most part) on Buffy. Then again, YMMV 🙂

      I have yet to see Vanity Fair so I can’t honestly assess OC’s abilities for myself at this point.

      Now, regarding the ages of Rhaenyra and Alicent…

      I think they can take both characters from their teens to the later years of their lives with both actresses. Pulling from a post I made in the other recent HotD thread about this subject:

      I think of This Is Us wherein Mandy Moore plays a character who goes from her late 20s/early 30s to her 70s so I certainly still think Cooke works. 26-year olds can (and have) passed for 17 or even younger. In Cooke’s case, I think Cooke has the right facial features to pull off younger. They can also age Cooke up with make-up. I thought they did really well with aging up Moore to her 70s while they only need to age Cooke up to a mere 45 in comparison, the age at which Alicent dies.

      I don’t think they’ll need to find other actresses for these life stages. Rhaenyra dies at

      age 33

      while Alicent

      dies at 45.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Pigeon,

      If you like Pedro Pascal (and who doesn’t?) you might like this 14:37 long interview from March 2019:

      “Pedro Pascal Breaks Down His Most Iconic Characters”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUTGtoIzkdk

      [Description]:
      Pedro Pascal breaks down his most iconic characters, including his roles in ‘Game of Thrones,’ ‘Narcos,’ ‘The Good Wife,’ ‘The Mentalist,’ ‘Kingsman: The Golden Circle,’ ‘The Equalizer 2’ and ‘Triple Frontier.’

      He talks about GoT at 3:15 -7:13, including his scene in Tyrion’s jail cell in (my all-time favorite episode) S4e7, and his fight scene with The Mountain in S4e9?.

        Quote  Reply

    32. Adrianacandle:
      Tron79,

      I think I have confidence OC can pull it off. It’ll have been about three years (I think?) since Vanity Fair aired by the time they get to filming and sometimes, it depends on the material. For example, Sarah Michelle Gellar — I don’t think comedy is her strong suit, I thought it was generally a weak spot in her abilities and she’s stronger with drama, but I think she was able to do it well (for the most part) on Buffy. Then again, YMMV 🙂

      I have yet to see Vanity Fair so I can’t honestly assess OC’s abilities for myself at this point.

      Now, regarding the ages of Rhaenyra and Alicent…

      I think they can take both characters from their teens to the later years of their lives with both actresses. Pulling from a post I made in the other recent HotD thread about this subject:

      I don’t think they’ll need to find other actresses for these life stages. Rhaenyra dies at

      while Alicent

      I hope you are right re OC.

      Speaking of aging up I just saw the season finale of The Mandalorian. They age down a famous Star Wars person with cgi. It was pretty incredible. I won’t say who it was if you want to watch it. But the cgi was amazing. It looked real. I wish they could do that for my face! I haven’t seen a spell like that since the red woman’s glamour necklace.

        Quote  Reply

    33. Tron79: Speaking of aging up I just saw the season finale of The Mandalorian. They age down a famous Star Wars person with cgi. It was pretty incredible. I won’t say who it was if you want to watch it. But the cgi was amazing. It looked real.

      I think between this and make-up, HotD probably won’t have any issues with the actors playing characters at various life stages 🙂 (well, except for when characters are clearly kids — like Rhaenyra and Aegon if the story begins in the early 100s. However, from their teens onward, I think it’ll be okay). I believed they used a bit of the CGI age down on some of the actors who appeared in the original LoTR trilogy when their characters made appearances in The Hobbit and that was… 2012, I think? So with it being 8 years since then, I think the technology has improved that much more 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    34. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Aging down Michael Douglas for a flashback scene in “Ant-Man” was pretty impressive.

      Yeah. I was just thinking that the red woman necklace gave a new meaning to looking different without your makeup. You know 100 years from now they may actually be able to do a glamour spell with a real necklace that projects your preferred face after you give yourself a touchup with your phone app.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Tron79: …You know 100 years from now they may actually be able to do a glamour spell with a real necklace that projects your preferred face after you give yourself a touchup with your phone app.

      Sounds like a good premise for a Tron sci-fi story. Or better yet, a love story.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Tron79,

      Well, I thing thats the biggest problem with Alicent’s interpretation, she doesnt have to be a Cersei type of character, I personally see her as an older and more ruthless Margaery, you see, Alicent is incredibly beautiful and cunning but she is also very charming, and she and her daughter were beloved by the common folk of KL.

      I see Rhaenerya more similar to Cersei, she is Paranoid, never forgets a sly, power hungry and ambitious (this is not a bad attribute btw), ruthless and jealous. Heck, even a part of her storyline is incredibly similar to that of Cersei’s lol

        Quote  Reply

    37. Tron79,

      SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER

      Okay so, at the beginning of the DoTD, Alicent is supposed to be in her 40s and Rhaenyra in her 30s, theres only a 10 year gap between them.

      Although, judging by the casting choices I think we are going to see a 20 year old Alicent reading to King Jaehaerys I when he is very old or something of the sorts, I think a way to make us care more about her and stablish her as one of the most complex and interesting characters in the series is to show her progression from a young beautiful and ambitous young lady like Margaery to the Alicent that we love (to hate) during the DoTD.

      Of course that brings the issue of Rhaenyra’s casting, but Maybe they intruduce is to Rhaenyra as a 10 year old girl dring the first episodes and then towards the end of the season we see her as a teenager, playes by Emma D’arcy, or maybe they make Rhaenyra a 15 year old girl and Alicent a 20 year old young woman at the start of the series so the age gap is only 5 years and everything is much more tragic.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Max: Well, I thing thats the biggest problem with Alicent’s interpretation, she doesnt have to be a Cersei type of character, I personally see her as an older and more ruthless Margaery, you see, Alicent is incredibly beautiful and cunning but she is also very charming, and she and her daughter were beloved by the common folk of KL.

      I see Rhaenerya more similar to Cersei, she is Paranoid, never forgets a sly, power hungry and ambitious (this is not a bad attribute btw), ruthless and jealous. Heck, even a part of her storyline is incredibly similar to that of Cersei’s lol

      I think a case could be made for both characters being both like and unlike Cersei. I’d say power hunger, ruthlessness, and jealousy apply to Alicent as well, while Rhaenyra herself could be charming and was raised doted upon by her father and to be her father’s heir — quite a bit unlike Cersei. With Cersei, her issues stem from Tywin’s lack of favour for her and Cersei not being his heir, but Jaime (who Cersei considers herself older than). She’s resentful of her limited place in Westeros as a woman, she’s resentful of her gender limiting her, she yearns to be Tywin’s heir instead of a daughter to be sold off in a marriage and employed as a broodmare. However, these are issues neither Rhaenyra, nor Alicent, seem to have. I’d even go out on a limb and say I think Rhaenyra and Alicent are

      both capable of a depth of feeling that I don’t think book Cersei is — eg. their love for their children. I think the love Rhaenyra and Alicent feel for their respective children is far deeper than book Cersei’s is for hers.

      I think Rhaenyra’s issue comes from that she was decidedly raised by her father to be his heir, a position she maintained

      even after the birth of her father’s sons by Alicent.

      Rhaenyra certainly had her father’s favour and love and… she knew it.

      Meanwhile, Alicent and her father were vying for power through

      [Alicent’s] son, despite them knowing (and this being originally Otto’s own doing, pushing Viserys to name Rhaenyra as his heir to remove Daemon from being his heir) that Viserys had named Rhaenyra as his heir. And they were upset that Viserys did not budge from this position after Alicent did give Viserys both trueborn sons.

      I think Alicent and Rhaenyra are both more multi-faceted than Cersei but… I wouldn’t say either one comes out a winner in terms of moral or noble character traits/motives.

        Quote  Reply

    39. I’m thinking that I probably won’t read the source material so that it will be new to me when the show airs and I hopefully won’t be disappointed if there are any noable changes in adaptation. I read one book from ‘The Wheel of Time’ series (not by GRRM) but decided not to read any more but will give the series a try when it eventually is televised.

      Max,

      Although making show Cersei complex was a change in adaptation of ASOIAF that I liked I seem to recall book Cersei could be superficially charming (though that didn’t mean I liked her as a character).

        Quote  Reply

    40. Max: Rhaenyra

      I can see that someone similar to Margaery would be a better fit for Olivia Clarke than Cersei. That makes sense.

      I’m about half way through the Princess and Queen Novella. My guess is you’re getting your ages from Fire and Blood? I’m all confused with the ages in this novella. I thought it said that Rhaenyra was 50 and 5 (55), but I will go back and read that part again. I’m getting confused with the similarity of the names and I could be confused! I was never that great at remembering names and dates in my history classes, and now I feel like there will have to be a quiz after I’m done reading 🙂 I much prefer GRRM’s POV style of writing to his Maester accounts of history (with some dialogue thrown in). It can get a bit boring to me, because it’s hard to feel invested in the characters when it’s told more at a distance. Did you say you were a history major?

        Quote  Reply

    41. Tron79: I thought it said that Rhaenyra was 50 and 5 (55), but I will go back and read that part again.

      I think you’re thinking of Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (74AC to 129AC), not Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen? 🙂

      Rhaenys lives until age 55 while Rhaenyra lives until

      age 33

      .

      I believe Rhaenys is Rhaenyra’s first cousin once-removed (with Rhaenys being the first cousin of both Rhaenyra’s parents, Aemma and Viserys).

        Quote  Reply

    42. Adrianacandle: I think you’re thinking of Princess Rhaenys Targaryen (74AC to 129AC), not Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen? 🙂

      Rhaenys lives until age 55 while Rhaenyra lives until

      .

      I believe Rhaenys is Rhaenyra’s first cousin once-removed (with Rhaenys being the first cousin of both Rhaenyra’s parents, Aemma and Viserys).

      Yes yes!! The names are so frickn similar!! I just went back and re read that part before I read your comment and I found it. I still was confused for a second because the names were so similar and then I went back and compared the spelling. I thought she would have been pretty old

      Since she was having a baby but I thought maybe that’s why it was stillborn. But now I can wipe those thoughts from my brain!

      Also they were both princesses so I was confused. That’s probably why I didn’t take very many history classes! Thanks for helping clear things up.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Tron79: Yes yes!! The names are so frickn similar!! I just went back and re read that part before I read your comment and I found it. I still was confused for a second because the names were so similar and then I went back and compared the spelling.

      Their names really are so similar! And adding to the challenge of differentiating them in the text due to their names and titles is that they existed in the same time period, with Rhaenys having a 23-year head start on Rhaenyra

      and they both die within a mere year of one another.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Dame of Mercia:
      A bit off topic but not 100% a blogger who writes about Edward II of England has some posts about cool names from the Chancery Rolls of the reign of Edward I.GRRM does have some quirky names but in this post from 2016 there are a couple of Drogos (though neither of them is a Kahl.https://edwardthesecond.blogspot.com/2016/03/even-more-cool-names.html

      Growing up as Conrald Conrad was probably frustrating saying something like, “It’s Conrald Conrad, not Conrad Conrald. Oh just forget it, say it as you wish”

        Quote  Reply

    45. Adrianacandle,

      • It seems that Otto made a lot of decisions he later came to regret, e.g.,

      suggesting that the king name his daughter Rhaenyra as heir, only to second guess himself later when his own daughter bore sons of the king

      .

      If Otto is a character in HotD, I hope he won’t be portrayed as a buffoon, or as a pliable or innocuous character like Mace Tyrell.

      If Otto will be a serious player in the political intrigue, then my fancasting choice will be…
      Joe Pesci. (Assuming he isn’t cast as the Lord of Light).

      • Another thing: GoT excelled in casting accomplished mature actors in meaningful roles, e.g., Diana Rigg, Charles Dance, Max von Sydow, Roy Dotrice, Peter Vaughn, James Cosmo, David Bradley, and others. (Other shows and movies often “age up” middle-aged actors with a streak of grey hair or prosthetics, instead of simply casting a mature actor.)
      I am hoping HotD will follow suit, and we’ll see some really great Oscar-winning actors playing wise elders, i.e., not just stuntcast as someone’s grandma.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Ten Bears,

      • It seems that Otto made a lot of decisions he later came to regret, e.g.,

      (spoiler)

      If Otto is a character in HotD, I hope he won’t be portrayed as a buffoon, or as a pliable or innocuous character like Mace Tyrell.

      If Otto will be a serious player in the political intrigue, then my fancasting choice will be…
      Joe Pesci. (Assuming he isn’t cast as the Lord of Light).

      Well, it was really only that one decision Otto came to regret

      because, I imagine, Otto didn’t anticipate the king would marry his own daughter and his descendants would have been undoubtedly Viserys’s heirs if Viserys had not named Rhaenyra his heir… at Otto’s urging to prevent Daemon from inheriting.

      When Otto was pushing for Viserys to name Rhaenyra his heir in defiance of the Great Council of 101, Queen Aemma was still alive and well. She later dies in childbirth and it’s Daemon’s jackassery words about the death of Aemma and his son that prompts Viserys to remove him as heir and make Rhaenyra so.

      At the same time, even thwarting Daemon wasn’t entirely successful because… guess who Rhaenyra marries? 😉

      Other than that, Otto seemed quite capable enough. He’s described as “methodical” in Fire & Blood and gets a shout-out in an ASOS Davos chapter where it’s revealed Otto was renowned for his knowledge:

      [Maester Pylos] “Lord Butterwell was renowned for wit, Myles Smallwood for courage, Ser Otto Hightower for learning[…]”

      Other traits observed in Otto:

      Ser Otto Hightower had continued in that office, serving the grandson as he had the grandsire; an able man, all agreed, though many found him proud, brusque, and haughty. The longer he served, the more imperious Ser Otto became, it was said, and many great lords and princes came to resent his manner and envy him his access to the Iron Throne.

      I can’t anticipate a man like Ser Otto being portrayed as a buffoon, pliable, or innocuous — especially since he has such a major role to play in which he’s a major reason why that groundwork was laid for the Dance of Dragons between Rhaenyra and Aegon

      (ie. pushing Viserys to name Rhaenyra as his heir to remove Daemon from the line of succession but later, when his own daughter becomes queen and gives birth to trueborn sons by Viserys, Otto acts against Rhaenyra in defiance of the king’s will).

      As for the age of Otto, he’s a pretty young guy at only 30 when Alicent marries Viserys, meaning he’s in his twenties when he comes into Viserys’s service. He lives until

      130AC, when he’s 54.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Adrianacandle,

      I have some new HDM comments. I suppose it can relate to GOT since many folks whinged about the ending! I’m seeing some similar whinging about season 2 of HDM. I didn’t see the finale yet in the USA, but I did watch one review already. Since I read the books, I figured it wouldn’t be much of a spoiler! I’m hoping the bulk of the reviews about the finale won’t be as bad as the one I watched, because a season 3 is not guaranteed. I just read that the showrunners recently sent the scripts in for season 3, but they haven’t heard anything back yet (whether it will be renewed). I’m hoping that for HBO, the ratings were good enough to get a third season. So much of the good stuff that would be cool to see is in the 3rd book. But it’s also probably the most expensive season to produce. I’m hoping they don’t wait too long to start filming and all of the actors can still return!

      I actually quite enjoyed episode 6. I think it may be a blessing for me that I forget so much about the book while I’m watching. I even just re-read book 2, but I still don’t remember every detail without referring to my notes. The reason I bring this up is that I felt I was still able to enjoy the “show” version without thinking too much about what happened in the book. Similar to GOT, it’s really a different animal (show adaptation vs. book). The differences didn’t bug me as much as the reviewers I watched. I quite enjoyed …

      the scene with Mary Malone, Angelica, and Paulo. I don’t recall this scene from the book. Paulo asked Mary Malone for a hug, which I thought was comforting. Those kids are just stuck there totally on their own, and it brought that message home for me. I also liked that they asked Mary to stay with them, since the Spectors couldn’t get her. That was new wasn’t it? It put a different spin on the children. Lyra carried forward that narrative later on saying Angelica really wasn’t that bad. I do think the book scene with the children attacking was much scarier and more dramatic. I’m not sure why the show decided to edit that scene down. I don’t think it hurt the show experience that much if you didn’t know the scene was better in the book. It served its purpose in the show. An important line was when Angelica asked if killing Lyra would have been wrong. I don’t recall that from the books either. That line says more about the overall theme of HDM. The children don’t have dust yet, so they don’t fully know right from wrong. And actually having that knowledge is exactly what the fall is all about. So I thought that one line of Angelica’s was a subtle line in the subtle knife that had a huge overall meaning for me.

      Mrs. Coulter’s poisoning of Lord Boreal really bugged me, and that was pretty much the same in the books (just in a different sequential order). Asriel would have done it if killing was for the greater good as he saw it. For Mrs. Coulter, Lord Boreal wasn’t a risk to her mission. She didn’t need him, but he wasn’t stopping her. She could have simply dumped him or just let the spectors eat him. She killed him for spite. When she was severing the children from their daemons she had a higher purpose in mind (in her own mind). Murdering Lord Borael was just plain murder. Perhaps she didn’t believe the Authority had any authority over her anymore and she could do whatever she pleased. After all, she could hide the human side of herself and control the spectors. I liked that explanation, but in the book it emphasized Mrs. Coutler’s talents for persuasion more than her hiding her soul.

      There were some critics who felt cheated that they only used a few witches instead of showing the very dramatic book version of the healing spell (with the incantation and more witches). Perhaps it was just budget, and I thought the show version served its purpose fine. I think the critics just thought the book version was much more of a spectacle, and they missed hearing the chanting. I didn’t think it was that bad, and it served its purpose. But perhaps just serving the purpose of the story doesn’t cut it for alot of viewers.

      On the positive side, I really liked Dafne Keen’s performance in these later episodes. As she’s growing older on screen, I find her more believable than she was when she was trying to be 11.

      I think perhaps they could have strayed some from the books to make a bigger emphasis on how much the “Authority” stifles free thought and exploration.

      I guess that’s all for now.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Tron79,

      I’m going to use Bella Ramsey and discussion about her character as my GoT connection 😉

      And I was excited to see you post your thoughts tonight!! 😀 I do look forward to your HDM thoughts!

      I’ve seen the finale and I’ve read comments about it on Reddit. What I’m mostly seeing is that season 2 and the finale feels very much like an in-between/set-up season — sort of in the way The Two Towers was for the LoTR film trilogy. I’ve also seen concerns that the lore of the books (ie. what daemons are and how they’re not separate from their person, they are their person) isn’t evident enough.

      which I can empathize with. Like when Mrs Coulter is being terrible to her daemon and abusing him, she’s not actually abusing a pet, dependent, or friend. She’s abusing and loathing herself since her daemon, her golden monkey, is her.

      But how would show-only viewers perceive these interactions?

      the scene with Mary Malone, Angelica, and Paulo. I don’t recall this scene from the book. Paulo asked Mary Malone for a hug, which I thought was comforting. Those kids are just stuck there totally on their own, and it brought that message home for me. I also liked that they asked Mary to stay with them, since the Spectors couldn’t get her. That was new wasn’t it?

      Yeah, that’s a show-only scene and I really quite liked it a lot. I thought it did a great job of humanizing these kids and reminding us of the children they really are. Angelica’s a pretty nasty kind of character but I did get a bit weepy at this scene. I thought Bella Ramsey, Ella Schrey-Yeats, and especially Simone Kirby were all wonderful.

      I agree, it really sent home that message these poor kids are just totally stuck in this awful place on their own. Without parents, without support, without guidance.

      I do think the book scene with the children attacking was much scarier and more dramatic. I’m not sure why the show decided to edit that scene down. I don’t think it hurt the show experience that much if you didn’t know the scene was better in the book. It served its purpose in the show.

      I agree, the attack scene is far scarier and more dramatic in the book. I wonder if these changes are meant to better humanize the kids? In the books, they’re kids but… they feel like a different sort of kid. With the portrayal of the kids in the show, they feel more… familiar? Like kids caught in a desperate situation.

      An important line was when Angelica asked if killing Lyra would have been wrong. I don’t recall that from the books either.

      I think that was show-only too.

      That line says more about the overall theme of HDM. The children don’t have dust yet, so they don’t fully know right from wrong. And actually having that knowledge is exactly what the fall is all about. So I thought that one line of Angelica’s was a subtle line in the subtle knife that had a huge overall meaning for me.

      Well, I think kids — by the time they’re Angelica’s age (12) — would know killing is wrong. I think this question is more about the terrible situation these kids are in.

      They’re in an extreme, unusual situation in which they’ve probably had to make choices at formative ages they wouldn’t have had to make otherwise. They’ve witnessed things that few people, let alone children, have witnessed. They’re facing situations they’re not ready for (and situations few are, no matter their ages, are ready for) and even more than that, under impossible circumstances. They’ve faced exceptional losses. Time is all but a literal, corporeal enemy because when they reach puberty, they become targets for having their souls and essences sucked out.

      And I think this would have an impact on their morality, for lack of a better term, and what they view as moral. They don’t even have the guidance of a parent or trusted adult to rely on.

      Mrs. Coulter’s poisoning of Lord Boreal really bugged me, and that was pretty much the same in the books (just in a different sequential order). Asriel would have done it if killing was for the greater good as he saw it. For Mrs. Coulter, Lord Boreal wasn’t a risk to her mission. She didn’t need him, but he wasn’t stopping her. She could have simply dumped him or just let the spectors eat him. She killed him for spite. When she was severing the children from their daemons she had a higher purpose in mind (in her own mind). Murdering Lord Borael was just plain murder. Perhaps she didn’t believe the Authority had any authority over her anymore and she could do whatever she pleased.

      I thought this was in-character for Mrs Coulter. She both uses people as tools and really, truly enjoys killing, and sadistically so. The separation of her daemons wasn’t just a means to an end for Mrs Coulter, it’s also a process she takes pleasure in — as noted by other characters around her.

      However, and especially in season 2, I think it’s easy to forget this side of Mrs Coulter because she’s spending 90% of her time in tears and wringing her hands about finding Lyra. In season 2, Mrs Coulter’s primary role seems to be as a mother rather than a devoted agent of The Church who takes true, real pleasure out of killing and torture.

      Of course, that conflict between these two sides of Mrs Coulter is there and I find it fascinating but I don’t think enough time was spent on her accomplished scientist/Church devotee/sadistic torturer and murderer side. The side that doesn’t really give a whit if the killing is needed or not — she likes to do it, she will do it, and people (with the exception of Asriel and Lyra) mean nothing to her.

      After all, she could hide the human side of herself and control the spectors. I liked that explanation, but in the book it emphasized Mrs. Coutler’s talents for persuasion more than her hiding her soul.

      I thought Mrs Coulter hiding her human side from the spectors in order to control them actually tied well into how Mrs Coulter fools the Metatron, where she hides her human (well, the part of her that truly feels) from him:

      I told him I was going to betray you, and betray Lyra, and he believed me because I was corrupt and full of wickedness; he looked so deep I felt sure he’d see the truth. But I lied too well. I was lying with every nerve and fiber and everything I’d ever done… I wanted him to find no good in me, and he didn’t. There is none.

      There were some critics who felt cheated that they only used a few witches instead of showing the very dramatic book version of the healing spell (with the incantation and more witches). Perhaps it was just budget, and I thought the show version served its purpose fine. I think the critics just thought the book version was much more of a spectacle, and they missed hearing the chanting. I didn’t think it was that bad, and it served its purpose. But perhaps just serving the purpose of the story doesn’t cut it for alot of viewers.

      It’s hard for me to comment on this because I was never terribly invested in the witches’ storyline — in either the show or book. However, I have seen quite a few viewers dissatisfied with the witches’ storyline in season 2, particularly book readers. I’m kind of inclined to think that’s more of an issue — viewers being invested in their story and finding its adaptation to screen pretty lackluster.

      On the positive side, I really liked Dafne Keen’s performance in these later episodes. As she’s growing older on screen, I find her more believable than she was when she was trying to be 11.

      You know, if I forget she’s supposed to be 11/12, I find her pretty believable. I don’t think she’s the best actress but I think she’s growing 🙂

      I think perhaps they could have strayed some from the books to make a bigger emphasis on how much the “Authority” stifles free thought and exploration.

      Yeah, I think more explanation (or demonstration) on that is needed, as well as emphasis on daemons being a part of that person (their soul) rather than a separate entity.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Tron79,

      Typo!

      * The separation of the childrens’ daemons wasn’t just a means to an end for Mrs Coulter[…]

      And a note on Dafne Keen!

      By saying I don’t think she’s the best actress, I more mean right now. I think she could grow into a great one — like Jennifer Connelly. In Labyrinth, 15/16-year old Connelly had some scenes where the acting could be better but she definitely grew and improved as an actress. I loved her in A Beautiful Mind and most recently, Snowpiercer.

        Quote  Reply

    50. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks for your thoughts. It made me think of a few things in particular. First a tie in to GOT. I think GOT was extremely lucky they were able to keep all of their main cast in tact for all 10 years. They did have a couple of re-casts, but that was more of a showrunner’s choice. For example, they recast Daario Naharis. Oooh.. I just found a website that shows all of the recasts, but none of them would have been like having to recast Cersei, Arya, Sansa or one of the other main POV’s.

      Daario Naharis
      Tommen Baratheon
      Myrcella Baratheon
      Dickon Tarly
      The Mountain
      The Night King
      Beric Dondarrion (I didn’t realize this one! Richard Dormer started in season 3)
      The Three Eyed Raven (good move on this one)
      Leaf. (I do remember the first girl as she eerily says, “Brandon Stark….” I can still hear her voice. I suppose they aged her in between seasons which seems odd, since they are supposed to look like children.

      I am just worried it will take too long for them to get approved for a season 3 and they might lose someone from the main cast. Also you have the ages of the actors. You don’t want them looking 18 either, but perhaps that’s not as much of a problem in the third book. I am worried there won’t be a season 3. But I am encouraged that HBO needs original content to survive. I’m thinking that HDM has to be a pretty big show for them in relative terms, even if it ends up being poorly received by critics.

      Re: Daemons and Religion

      Yeah, I agree the scene with Mrs. Coutler’s daemon being left behind reminded me of leaving my dog in the house when my wife and I both worked. I felt bad for the dog, and the dog cried like that. One day I arrived home to a huge pile of shredded magazines in the middle of the floor. To your point, the scene does suggest that the daemon is more like a pet. You know what I realized just now. They hardly if ever have the monkey talk. Do you remember the monkey ever talking back to Mrs. Coulter? There’s no internal dialogue going on to fight her worst instincts. I don’t recall if the monkey talks much in the books either. Perhaps that’s just saying that Mrs. Coulter has blocked out that part of herself so much that there no longer is an internal dialogue. I do think she may have thought of some other use for her daemon while she was traveling instead of just locking him up in the house like a pet. Witch’s daemons often are sent on missions. I got the feeling that her separation wasn’t really like the witch’s separation.

      I agree with you about book two being more like The Two Towers. I felt that way when reading the books also. It was the shortest of the three books, and I knew I had book three coming, so I wasn’t expecting a hugely impactful ending. However, I was crushed in the books when Lee Scoresby died. I didn’t see what was coming in book 3. I felt much more of an attachment to Lee in the books than the show. Did you feel that way too? I’m not sure why that is though. As I’ve said before, I’ve enjoyed Lin Manuel-Miranda’s performance, and he’s definitely devoted to Lyra. Going back to GOT, GRRM always had a way of ramping up the action at the end of each of his books that made me sit up in my seat. It felt like a good payoff for me for getting through so many pages! He takes his time, but he turns on the juice as each book concludes. I’m not sure if it was that way as much for Pullman in The Subtle Knife. Also, John dies so quickly in the books (and I’m sure the show), it was somewhat of a let down for me as it was for Will! He just meets his father and his father gets killed almost immediately. In the show, they haven’t developed the motivations of Juta Kamainen at all from what I remember, so I’m not sure how they will explain things in the show. The ending in the books was more like an end of a chapter for me, and I could immediately turn the page and start book 3. I remember still feeling like I was in mourning about Lee. I wasn’t worried that much about Lyra being taken by Mrs. Coulter. I figured she would escape eventually.

      So now on to the religion part. Season 1 made a meaningful point for me when they showed that Asriel was willing to kill Roger. Also the Magisterium were just as willing to kill or maim children. There are too many examples in history about how people kill in the name of their god. There are textualists who think they know what G-d wants them to do. I’m not sure if you are familiar with the assassination of Yitzak Rabin (the Israeli Prime Minister). He was giving a peace rally when he was murdered. They were singing the song Shir LaShalom which means “Song of Peace”. He had the lyrics of the song on a piece of paper in his pocket when he was shot. There is a picture of the bloody paper that I can still see. The person that shot him thought he was totally justified because of the way he read the scriptures. He thought he knew what his god wanted him to do, and he had no doubt. I won’t get into why he felt justified, because I don’t want to give him any more publicity. In the history of the world, people think they know what their god wants them to do by their own interpretation of the texts, and they have no doubt. Many of these texts are over 3000 years old, yet they think they know what their god is telling them to do. Others believe that the stories are not to be taken literally and are more allegorical. I find that the strict textualists who have no doubts are often at the heart of the issue (IMHO). I would hope that anyone would at least want some confirmation from the source before killing someone! I would be saying, “You want me to do what? I’m going to need to hear this from your boss first before I’m doing that.” I would have liked HDM to go more into this side of things. There are beautiful things about religion. I even found beauty in the rituals of the Anglican Nuns from The Black Narcissus story. I sure do hope that some greater force is out there. I would hate things to be like it was for Jon Snow where it was just nothing. But I also have to believe that G-d doesn’t want us to kill each other in G-d’s name. I think in season 1, the perversion of religion was even more evident. Here are the lyrics of the song from the peace rally translated to English

      Shir LaShalom (Sing of Peace)
      Let the sun rise
      light up the morning
      The purest of prayers
      will not bring us back

      He whose candle was snuffed out
      and was buried in the dust
      bitter crying won’t wake him up
      and won’t bring him back

      Nobody will bring us back
      from a dead and darkened pit
      here,
      neither the victory cheer
      nor songs of praise will help

      So just sing a song for peace
      don’t whisper a prayer
      Just sing a song for peace
      in a loud shout

      Allow the sun to penetrate
      through the flowers
      don’t look back
      let go of those departed

      Lift your eyes with hope
      not through the rifles’ sights
      sing a song for love
      and not for wars

      Don’t say the day will come
      bring on that day –
      because it is not a dream –
      and in all the city squares
      cheer only for peace!

        Quote  Reply

    51. Tron79,

      Oh, I hadn’t even entertained the possibility that HDM season 3 might take some time to get approved. Oh good lord, I hope not. I know I’ve often argued Keen is a bit too old to convincingly play a 12-year old at 14/15 but having Lyra recast would just be…. strange. Like I couldn’t imagine Sansa/Arya/Bran or another main chid/teen character recast.

      I don’t think this would be as much an issue for the adult cast though. However, I think it would be with the teen actors because they’re still going through physical changes and developments in their transition to adulthood so I think these changes would appear far more evident in their appearance.

      HDM:

      Yeah, I agree the scene with Mrs. Coutler’s daemon being left behind reminded me of leaving my dog in the house when my wife and I both worked. I felt bad for the dog, and the dog cried like that. One day I arrived home to a huge pile of shredded magazines in the middle of the floor. To your point, the scene does suggest that the daemon is more like a pet.

      Yeah, this is where I’m having trouble with the daemon-person relationship portrayal on the show. The daemon isn’t a pet or a separate entity but an avatar of that person’s soul. The golden monkey is Mrs Coulter.

      As Lyra explained about Pan, “I am him and he is me.” However, I think this needs to be emphasized more in the show to demonstrate daemons aren’t pets, they’re actually the person they’re a daemon to. They’re their soul.

      You know what I realized just now. They hardly if ever have the monkey talk. Do you remember the monkey ever talking back to Mrs. Coulter?

      I think the golden monkey in the books is silent as well — and he has no name revealed to us in the text. There was a radio adaptation made of HDM in 2003 — they gave the monkey the name Ozymandias. However, I don’t know if this name is supported by Pullman.

      There’s no internal dialogue going on to fight her worst instincts. I don’t recall if the monkey talks much in the books either. Perhaps that’s just saying that Mrs. Coulter has blocked out that part of herself so much that there no longer is an internal dialogue.

      I think her daemon is what represents Mrs Coulter’s worst instincts or the other side of her inner conflict since he is her and the monkey never seems to approve of Mrs Coulter’s more emotionally-guided actions, like her protection of Lyra or acting against the Church for her. In the cave where Mrs Coulter keeps Lyra in a drugged sleep and hidden from the Church, the monkey assists — but quite begrudgingly.

      So I think there is an internal dialogue — of sorts — but it’s more in the interaction between herself and her daemon, where there seems to be a real animosity. Mrs Coulter has selfish desires, she’s power hungry, she enjoys climbing the ranks, enjoys killing, she enjoys separating children from their daemons, she enjoys torture… but all this comes to a dead halt when it comes to her identity as Lyra’s mother. Mrs Coulter’s desire to protect Lyra challenges everything else about herself.

      I do think she may have thought of some other use for her daemon while she was traveling instead of just locking him up in the house like a pet. Witch’s daemons often are sent on missions. I got the feeling that her separation wasn’t really like the witch’s separation.

      I don’t think it is either. I know Mrs Coulter can separate from her daemon quite a bit in the books as well but I don’t think it’s at all like a witch’s separation. Maybe this says something about Mrs Coulter’s ability to compartmentalize? Dividing these various aspects of herself into boxes, some of which do conflict with each other, and not being an entirely… whole person at any given time?

      I felt much more of an attachment to Lee in the books than the show. Did you feel that way too? I’m not sure why that is though. As I’ve said before, I’ve enjoyed Lin Manuel-Miranda’s performance, and he’s definitely devoted to Lyra.

      Unfortunately, I don’t feel much attachment to Lee in the show or his relationship with Lyra and I wonder if it’s because there wasn’t much on-screen development with that. I also confess I’m not terribly enamored by LMM’s performance, I’m not turned off by it but I’m not drawn in either — but YMMV.

      I’m not sure if it was that way as much for Pullman in The Subtle Knife. Also, John dies so quickly in the books (and I’m sure the show), it was somewhat of a let down for me as it was for Will! He just meets his father and his father gets killed almost immediately. In the show, they haven’t developed the motivations of Juta Kamainen at all from what I remember, so I’m not sure how they will explain things in the show. The ending in the books was more like an end of a chapter for me, and I could immediately turn the page and start book 3. I remember still feeling like I was in mourning about Lee. I wasn’t worried that much about Lyra being taken by Mrs. Coulter. I figured she would escape eventually.

      Right. The end of book 2 felt more like the end of a chapter and setting up book 3 rather than any kind or urgency.

      Will’s search for his father ends pretty tragically. We learn Lyra is the new Eve. Mrs Coulter kidnaps Lyra. But yeah, with the last, I didn’t feel any real kind of danger — though, I think we’re meant to because we have yet to see the extent of her maternal feelings for Lyra (which largely happens in book 3 when Mrs Coulter risks herself and throws away her career to hide Lyra and when Mrs Coulter talks about Lyra with Asriel).

      But at the end of book 2, I think there’s still meant to be that question if Mrs Coulter will betray her own daughter, the only child she’s willing to spare from her own intercision process she deems as “so important”, for the Church.

      Also, thanks for your thoughts on religion and how they connect to HDM! I agree, there are so many examples of people using or believing religion gives them the ultimate authority and license to kill in the name of their god. Meanwhile, Asriel kills Roger as simply a means to an end in his war against the Church.

      I also agree about strict textualists who take everything written down in what bible they follow so literally instead of examining the ideas behind the words. I mean, just looking at the New Testament vs. the Old Testament, there are more than a few contradictions (OT’s “eye for an eye” vs NT’s “turn the other cheek”) — but I think it’s the ideas behind these words that are important to examine.

      I would have liked HDM to go more into this side of things. There are beautiful things about religion.

      I agree and I think this is exhibited really nicely by Mary’s story in particular.

      I sure do hope that some greater force is out there.

      Personally… I think there is. I don’t know what it is, I don’t know if I adhere to any one religion, but my gut tells me there must be something out there. I sort of lean toward the side of having hope that reincarnation is a thing because I like the idea of starting again 🙂 Gives me some hope if this life goes to crap and I don’t get to do everything I want to do.

      I think in season 1, the perversion of religion was even more evident. Here are the lyrics of the song from the peace rally translated to English
      Shir LaShalom (Sing of Peace)
      Let the sun rise
      light up the morning
      The purest of prayers
      will not bring us back
      He whose candle was snuffed out
      and was buried in the dust
      bitter crying won’t wake him up
      and won’t bring him back
      Nobody will bring us back
      from a dead and darkened pit
      here,
      neither the victory cheer
      nor songs of praise will help
      So just sing a song for peace
      don’t whisper a prayer
      Just sing a song for peace
      in a loud shout
      Allow the sun to penetrate
      through the flowers
      don’t look back
      let go of those departed
      Lift your eyes with hope
      not through the rifles’ sights
      sing a song for love
      and not for wars
      Don’t say the day will come
      bring on that day –
      because it is not a dream –
      and in all the city squares
      cheer only for peace!

      That’s beautiful.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Adrianacandle,

      Thanks for your reply. I can’t respond on everything at the moment but I was thinking about Tyrion’s line in the finale about perhaps it would be better for him if it was all just nothing as the best outcome he could have hoped. And I was reminded of Will’s line that Lyra and was great as herself when you were talking about reincarnation. But for me I always wanted to come back as Bon Jovi 🙂

      Anyway I need to turn the TV off as Stephen King suggests so I can get back to my story writing. Although he didn’t say to turn it off. He said something about wrapping the cord around it and throwing it out. But he did get lots of inspiration from the horror movies he watched at the old theaters. I’ve made a little bit of progress. I’m finding I need to write in order to see where the story is going so I am ending up being a gardener.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Adrianacandle,

      ”And a note on Dafne Keen!”

      My own note on Dafne Keen, with GoT connection:

      I have not been watching “His Dark Materials,” though I’ve been curious about it from your exchanges with Tron79, including your commentaries about Dafne Keen’s casting and her performance as the main (?) character.

      Anyway, I did not recognize her name and did not know who she was. Or so I thought.
      In connection with a comment I was drafting about diverse casting and scripting of HotD, I happened to be searching for a YouTube clip of Rila Fukushima in “The Wolverine” (2013). Rila Fukushima played the Volantis street priestess who spooked Tyrion in S5e3 of Game of Thrones.
      (In case you’re curious, links to a featurette of her role in “The Wolverine,” preceded by her appearance in GoT, are embedded below.)

      In the YouTube menu of Recommendations under “The Wolverine” clip I was looking for, I noticed one thumbnail with the description of
      Dafne Keen with Hugh Jackman as Wolverine in “Logan.” I had seen “Logan,” and remembered that the young actress who co-starred as Laura turned in an impressive performance, but never realized that the actress was Dafne Keen.

      —————————
      Rila Fukushima in GoT and “The Wolverine

      • S5e3, Streets of Volantis: Red Priestess & Tyrion:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1i0WIphWg

      [Even though her scene lasted maybe a minute and a half, I was intrigued by her character and the way she unsettled Tyrion just by looking at him. I would have welcomed a side story about her and her fellow Volantis Red Temple Priestesses (instead of *cough* Cackling Clown Euron *cough*). I had hoped we might see her again…]

      • Rila Fukushima co-starring in “The Wolverine”:
      (“Yukio featurette”)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r6KnVt15mE

      [I thought she stole the show from Hugh Jackman, and not just because she was nimble with a sword.]

        Quote  Reply

    54. Tron79,

      ”… I was thinking about Tyrion’s line in the finale about perhaps it would be better for him if it was all just nothing as the best outcome he could have hoped…”

      I’m drawing a blank. What did Tyrion say?

        Quote  Reply

    55. Ten Bears: I’m drawing a blank. What did Tyrion say?

      I believe Tyrion said, “I should be thankful. Oblivion is the best I could hope for.”

      In the YouTube menu of Recommendations under “The Wolverine” clip I was looking for, I noticed one thumbnail with the description of
      Dafne Keen with Hugh Jackman as Wolverine in “Logan.” I had seen “Logan,” and remembered that the young actress who co-starred as Laura turned in an impressive performance, but never realized that the actress was Dafne Keen.

      Oh, so you’re familiar with Dafne Keen! I haven’t ever seen Logan. HDM is the first time I’ve encountered Keen. I think Keen grows quite a bit in her performance as Lyra. She has a few great stand-out scenes in my opinion.

        Quote  Reply

    56. Tron79: Thanks for your reply. I can’t respond on everything at the moment but I was thinking about Tyrion’s line in the finale about perhaps it would be better for him if it was all just nothing as the best outcome he could have hoped. And I was reminded of Will’s line that Lyra and was great as herself when you were talking about reincarnation. But for me I always wanted to come back as Bon Jovi 🙂

      Anyway I need to turn the TV off as Stephen King suggests so I can get back to my story writing. Although he didn’t say to turn it off. He said something about wrapping the cord around it and throwing it out. But he did get lots of inspiration from the horror movies he watched at the old theaters. I’ve made a little bit of progress. I’m finding I need to write in order to see where the story is going so I am ending up being a gardener.

      Oooh, that’s a lovely connection to make — reincarnation and Will’s line to Lyra 🙂

      Hmm, so Stephen King was all about wrapping the cord up and throwing out the TV? I could say something about GRRM and his TV watching habits but I’ll refrain 😉

      (That said, I’m a bit of a hypocrite in saying that. TV has proved both a hindrance and a help when I’ve worked. It can both distract me and keep me occupied as background noise when I work on particularly tedious tasks…)

      I’m glad you’re making progress! Sometimes, I think it does require some gardening to realize where you need to go…

        Quote  Reply

    57. Dame of Mercia: I think quite a few of those names would cause confusion, Tron.

      Oh, definitely. I’m convinced variants of Rhaenys (like Rhaenyra) are the Targaryen Jennifer while Aegon is the Targaryen Michael.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Adrianacandle,

      Yes about needing to garden…Here’s one example… I was thinking about a scene when the Dad in my story remembers his daughter Lisa coughing and gasping for air in the hallway.. He’s remembering how she crawled her way back inside… Actually, here’s a line I wrote…It might be crap 🙂 “Then he saw her pulling herself back in across the doorway. She was holding her chest with her right hand as she pulled on the floor with her left like a rock climber struggling to grip the next hold. She pulled herself across the threshold and curled up on the hallway floor coughing and gasping for air.”

      I realized after I wrote it that the dad would have never been able to see all of that. In real life he would have maybe heard the dog barking and come downstairs (he probably was hanging out watching TV upstairs or something). And then he would see her collapsed already in the hallway… So I realized that in this world, when you touch someone, you connect and can see through their eyes what just happened to them. This world is huge on memories and connections. Usually the connections are through objects that are given to the person. And the kicker is the dad is fighting not to remember that part, because as soon as he does, the daughter comes downstairs and gets mad at him for bringing that horrible memory up again (because when he remembers it then he’s still connected to her so she remembers it too!!) I only figured that out by writing and thinking about the scene…Anyway, it’s kind of fun. I may never finish though but it’s good practice for something…..word by word, scene by scene, or however GRRM said it…

        Quote  Reply

    59. Tron79,

      Far be it for me to intrude on your story writing process. Selfishly, I’d like to see you run with the idea you had a couple of days ago:

      Tron79: “You know 100 years from now they may actually be able to do a glamour spell with a real necklace that projects your preferred face after you give yourself a touchup with your phone app.”

      TB: “Sounds like a good premise for a Tron sci-fi story. Or better yet, a love story.”

      ——-
      Pseudo-connection to HotD: “Ready Player One” with Olivia Cooke sort of broached this theme about glamour spells
      projecting one’s preferred face (via virtual reality) but didn’t really follow through on it.

      Also…a few steps more removed from HotD… As you noted, Olivia Cooke is going to be co-starring with Alec Baldwin in “Pixie” (2021).
      Have you ever seen “The Cooler” with Alec Baldwin, Maria Bello, and William H. Macy? There’s a (rather sweet) scene in that movie about seeing oneself through someone else’s eyes…I’ll see if I can find it.

        Quote  Reply

    60. Ten Bears: “I should be thankful. Oblivion is the best I could hope for.”

      I believe Adrianacandle is correct. Tyrion said something like “I should be thankful. Oblivion is the best I could hope for.”

      Re Dafne Keen in Logan:
      She had a very physical “action” role in Logan. She didn’t speak at all for a good part of the beginning of the movie. I can’t remember how long it took before she bursts something out in very fast Spanish. She has amazing fight scenes. That’s partially why I was upset with her performance at the beginning of the first season of HDM. She seemed almost sedated through parts of it. It didn’t seem like the same actress to me. But she had aged a few years already. It was a far cry from being the X-23 Killing Machine from Logan.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Tron79: That’s partially why I was upset with her performance at the beginning of the first season of HDM. She seemed almost sedated through parts of it. It didn’t seem like the same actress to me. But she had aged a few years already. It was a far cry from being the X-23 Killing Machine from Logan.

      Yeah, that had been my impression as well. As you once said, it felt like she was asleep for those first few episodes. Her Lyra was so… docile then…

      But she’s improved!

      I realized after I wrote it that the dad would have never been able to see all of that. In real life he would have maybe heard the dog barking and come downstairs (he probably was hanging out watching TV upstairs or something). And then he would see her collapsed already in the hallway… So I realized that in this world, when you touch someone, you connect and can see through their eyes what just happened to them.

      Oh, yes, I’ve had moments of realization like that! And then it’s like, “Oh crap….” especially if you’re particularly happy with a piece you’ve got to edit out if you can’t find a way to keep it (on that note, I think the excerpt you quoted is a lovely piece of writing! I was able to visualize this scenario really well!)

      However, it sounds like you’ve made the dad knowing these details he wouldn’t otherwise be aware of work with that world building detail.

      The object-memory connection reminds me a little of this power on Heroes… where somebody touches an object and they learn its whole history. I don’t know if what you’re thinking of is exactly like that but that’s what it brought to my mind 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    62. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Far be it for me to intrude on your story writing process. Selfishly, I’d like to see you run with the idea you had a couple of days ago:

      Tron79: “You know 100 years from now they may actually be able to do a glamour spell with a real necklace that projects your preferred face after you give yourself a touchup with your phone app.”


      TB: “Sounds like a good premise for a Tron sci-fi story. Or better yet, a love story.”

      ——-Pseudo-connection to HotD: “Ready Player One” with Olivia Cooke sort of broached this theme about glamour spells
      projecting one’s preferred face (via virtual reality) but didn’t really follow through on it.

      Also…a few steps more removed from HotD… As you noted, Olivia Cooke is going to be co-starring with Alec Baldwin in “Pixie” (2021).Have you ever seen “The Cooler” with Alec Baldwin, Maria Bello, and William H. Macy? There’s a (rather sweet) scene in that movie about seeing oneself through someone else’s eyes…I’ll see if I can find it.

      My guess is that glamour necklace will be reality some day.
      Yes, it is similar to taking on an avatar in the virtual reality world, but that’s alot more than just her face.
      I have my hands full with the current story. We’ll see what happens after a few months. At my current pace, it will be spring before this story is done, and I do sort of have a sulphuric acid lake around me at the moment with COVID everywhere. I don’t leave the house much, so I really don’t have a good excuse not to keep writing. I don’t have any prequel’s I’m working on, and I’m not trying to figure out how to get Danny out of Meereen.

      I do think OC is an interesting choice. I think it helped me to think of her more like a Margaery character. She definitely has the acting experience to pull it off. HotD is going a different route than GOT though in regards to casting. They are going for much more well known actors. Most of my favorites were all unknowns, and for many actors, GOT was there first big job. Yes there were some veterans, but Jon, Danny, Sam, Arya of course, Sansa were all newcomers. I’m sure there were other newcomers as well that I’m leaving out.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Adrianacandle,

      I think I may have seen one episode of Heroes, so I wasn’t really thinking that (so no copyright infringement 🙂
      I think some was from seeing shows like Ghost Hunters on TV where objects seem to take on the memory of the ghosts who lived there. Mine isn’t going to be a ghost story though. I liked the idea of people exchanging something of importance after the event happens. A funny line to me is that the mom is taken aback by the fact that her daughter is buying other people’s things from ebay. That’s just so wrong in this world!!! She’s supposed to be getting her own memories. Her things should be objects that others give to her. It’s not normal for people to buy their own things like that!

      Anyway…it’s fun to think about…

        Quote  Reply

    64. Tron79: I think I may have seen one episode of Heroes, so I wasn’t really thinking that (so no copyright infringement 🙂

      Oh, I think this would have been like season 3, one episode, so I think it’s really unlikely that show planted the idea in your head! Plus, I don’t think the power is original to Heroes. I think it’s a fascinating concept to explore — object and memory.

      I think some was from seeing shows like Ghost Hunters on TV where objects seem to take on the memory of the ghosts who lived there. Mine isn’t going to be a ghost story though. I liked the idea of people exchanging something of importance after the event happens. A funny line to me is that the mom is taken aback by the fact that her daughter is buying other people’s things from ebay. That’s just so wrong in this world!!!

      Oooooooh, I really really love that. Touching somebody else’s things would be a legitimate invasion of privacy without that consent. Wow.

      On the topic of eBay, I wonder what thrift stores would look like in this world :O

      She’s supposed to be getting her own memories. Her things should be objects that others give to her. It’s not normal for people to buy their own things like that!

      That’s also an intriguing concept! How one acquires items, what is an acceptable form of acquisition vs. not, and what it means, etc.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Adrianacandle,

      So, that’s a cool concept about privacy. There’s a twist on the rules on how I saw it working. I thought it had to be a two way connection before you could just see the memory. Someone has to give it to you, so you’ve made a connection with that person. Just picking up someone else’s object or wearing their clothes wouldn’t necessarily trigger a memory (well not usually 🙂 But buying objects for yourself is generally frowned upon just as talking to yourself by picking up one of your own memories.

      Anyhoo… I will see where the garden grows…That’s the thing though.. It’s just like you coming up with the concept of privacy. That’s what happens as i write more. More ideas come out of living there for awhile and what it must be like….

        Quote  Reply

    66. Adrianacandle,

      Oooooooh, I really really love that. Touching somebody else’s things would be a legitimate invasion of privacy without that consent. Wow.
      ***
      [Tron]: “She’s supposed to be getting her own memories. Her things should be objects that others give to her. It’s not normal for people to buy their own things like that!”
      ***
      That’s also an intriguing concept! How one acquires items, what is an acceptable form of acquisition vs. not, and what it means, etc.

      _____

      I’ve often thought about people’s emotional attachments to objects, whether they be family heirlooms, souvenirs, or things cherished for sentimental value and therefore deemed irreplaceable. (For example, one of my prized possessions is my grandfather’s Toro speed drill, which must have been manufactured over seventy years ago. All metal. Real power. Not the flimsy plastic cordless crap made these days. Anyway, plugging it in and turning it on to watch the blue sparks inside its casing kind of brings back lucid memories of him, though he’s been gone for thirty years.)

      I too like the idea of accessing other people’s memories by touching their possessions – and what would happen if acquiring someone else’s possessions to acquire their memories takes the place of forming one’s own memories from one’s own experiences.

      Yes! That would be an invasion of privacy, and give new (and negative) meaning to living vicariously through someone else.

      Fascinating stuff. I look forward to reading all about it in the spring. 😋

        Quote  Reply

    67. Tron79,

      ”I thought it had to be a two way connection before you could just see the memory. Someone has to give it to you, so you’ve made a connection with that person. Just picking up someone else’s object or wearing their clothes wouldn’t necessarily trigger a memory (well not usually 🙂)”

      Oops. I didn’t read your explanatory comment about the two-way connection rule. Requiring someone to give you the object (and memories) voluntarily would make it more meaningful…

        Quote  Reply

    68. Tron79,

      ”I do think OC [Olivia Clarke] is an interesting choice. I think it helped me to think of her more like a Margaery character. She definitely has the acting experience to pull it off. HotD is going a different route than GOT though in regards to casting. They are going for much more well known actors. Most of my favorites were all unknowns, and for many actors, GOT was their first big job. Yes there were some veterans, but Jon, Danny, Sam, Arya of course, Sansa were all newcomers…”

      I had never heard of OC before, and was surprised how much film and TV experience she’s had. For me, she was not well known. (Maybe it’s my fault she flew under my radar.) I wasn’t familiar with Emma D’Arcy either.

      Do we know if Emma D’Arcy as Rhaenyra and OC as Alicent going to be the two main characters in HotD? Because other than Matt Smith, I don’t think I recognized any well known actors.

      Part of the reason, I think, is that experienced, popular actors in the U.K. are often relative unknowns in the U.S. unless they were in a Harry Potter movie or some Hollywood blockbuster.

      My favorites on GoT were “newcomers” I suppose: Rory McCann as Sandor, and Maisie Williams as Arya. Oh. and Charlotte Hope as Myranda. I’ve got to think I’ll feel the same way about some of the HotD actors if the show is a hit.*

      * We can only hope and pray that HotD avoids the fate of HBO’s Vinyl: big name director, star-studded ensemble cast, lots of hype…and canceled after one season. (I never got to see it. Was it that bad?)

        Quote  Reply

    69. Happy Holidays to all, and may next year be so much better than this year!

      🎶I’m dreaming of a wight Christmas🎶

      🤶🏻 ❄️🧟🧟‍♀️🧟🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️❄️🎅

      Warning! ⚠️ Christmas Musical Interlude ahead.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Ten Bears: Emma D’Arcy

      I’m going to have to watch some of Emma D’Arcy’s work. I do see that she has a theater background, so my guess is that she can handle those high thread count dialogue scenes that you like! I also see she was in the TV version of Hanna. She didn’t play Hanna though… I just re-watched the movie version of Hanna two days ago. The movie version was with Saoirse Ronan as a super ninja assassin! Well, she wasn’t a ninja, but she was definitely a super assassin. I remember Hanna had the coolest website back in 2011. I wish the website was still up, but no such luck.

      I also loved your real life example of your grandfather’s drill. That’s a great memory, and an awesome example of how your memory can be triggered by familiar objects, sounds and smells. My guess is the drill had a smell when the sparks started flying. My dad had a drill that made sparks like that.

      It seemed to me that GOT was a bit like “moneyball” the baseball movie, where they couldn’t afford to hire too many well known actors. They were looking for the right combinations. They hired quite a few right out of drama school! And as you know, it was Maisie William’s first acting role. GOT did have a few bigger names like Sean Bean, Charles Dance and others, but most of my favorites were newcomers.
      I’m sure it kept the budget down! It was a great casting job by Nina Gold. I don’t know who is casting HotD. No one is listed yet on IMDB as casting director.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Tron79: So, that’s a cool concept about privacy. There’s a twist on the rules on how I saw it working. I thought it had to be a two way connection before you could just see the memory. Someone has to give it to you, so you’ve made a connection with that person. Just picking up someone else’s object or wearing their clothes wouldn’t necessarily trigger a memory (well not usually 🙂 But buying objects for yourself is generally frowned upon just as talking to yourself by picking up one of your own memories.

      Anyhoo… I will see where the garden grows…That’s the thing though.. It’s just like you coming up with the concept of privacy. That’s what happens as i write more. More ideas come out of living there for awhile and what it must be like….

      Oh, a two-way connection being required to access the history of an object — that’s a great idea! I think it does make the object-memory connection that much more meaningful, as Ten Bears said! 🙂

      Ten Bears: I’ve often thought about people’s emotional attachments to objects, whether they be family heirlooms, souvenirs, or things cherished for sentimental value and therefore deemed irreplaceable. (For example, one of my prized possessions is my grandfather’s Toro speed drill, which must have been manufactured over seventy years ago. All metal. Real power. Not the flimsy plastic cordless crap made these days. Anyway, plugging it in and turning it on to watch the blue sparks inside its casing kind of brings back lucid memories of him, though he’s been gone for thirty years.)

      I too like the idea of accessing other people’s memories by touching their possessions – and what would happen if acquiring someone else’s possessions to acquire their memories takes the place of forming one’s own memories from one’s own experiences.

      Yes! That would be an invasion of privacy, and give new (and negative) meaning to living vicariously through someone else.

      Fascinating stuff. I look forward to reading all about it in the spring. 😋

      I agree, these ideas are fascinating stuff with a ton of areas to explore 🙂 And the object-memory/history connection is one with a lot of foundation, especially in regard to anthropology studies, history, art, and archiving these objects as preservations of this history and memory.

      I also really like the story about your grandfather’s 70+ year old drill! My dad has a metal drill that is 45 years old from when he was 15. Of course, being Tasha the Destroyer, I… ruined the chuck my first time using it because I didn’t attach it to the rig correctly.

      : Happy Holidays to all, and may next year be so much better than this year!

      🎶I’m dreaming of a wight Christmas🎶

      🤶🏻 ❄️🧟🧟‍♀️🧟🧟‍♀️🧟‍♂️🧟‍♀️❄️🎅

      …Just like the ones I used to know… before covid…

      Happy holidays to you and everyone else as well!

        Quote  Reply

    72. Tron79,

      …real life example of your grandfather’s drill. That’s a great memory, and an awesome example of how your memory can be triggered by familiar objects, sounds and smells. My guess is the drill had a smell when the sparks started flying. My dad had a drill that made sparks like that.”

      Yes! Exactly! The cool blue sparks and the unique electrical smell trigger memories from long ago.

      Incidentally, after reading your reply I visited with my grandfather’s Thor Speed Drill.* From the information on the side panel and a bit of Googling, I was able to pinpoint that it was manufactured 63 years ago (1957) in Cicero, Illinois.
      …………..
      * Image below from advertisement for Thor Model 20 Speed Drill, in August, 1957 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine:
      http://vintagemachinery.org/MfgIndex/Images/21702-A.jpg

      Thank you for prompting me to take this trip down Memory Lane.

        Quote  Reply

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