Martin’s ‘Fire & Blood’ to be released soon; The Winds of Winter & Spin-off Update!

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George R. R. Martin just announced on his newly refurbished “Not a Blog” blog that his next book is coming soon… though it may not be the book most people want right now. It’s Fire & Blood, Martin’s first of two volumes on the History of House Targaryen written from the perspective of an Archmaester. But what about The Winds of Winter? Well…

The Fire & Blood hardcover edition is going to be published in the US and the UK on November 20. Some translated editions will arrive simultaneously in other countries, while others will have to wait, depending on the publisher. I’ll let Martin sell it to you:

It’s a hefty book, almost a thousand manuscript pages (okay, 989, if you want to be precise). That’s not quite as long as A GAME OF THRONES or any of the later volumes in A SONG FOR ICE AND FIRE, but there’s a lot of reading there, and I hope you’ll enjoy it. This first volume covers all the Targaryen kings from Aegon I (the Conquerer) to the regency of Aegon III (the Dragonbane), along with their wives, wars, siblings, children, friends, rivals, laws, travels, and sundry other matters. For those not up on your Westerosi history, that’s Aegon I, Aenys, Maegor the Cruel, Jaehaerys I (the Conciliator), Viserys I, Aegon II (and Rhaenyra), and Aegon III (the regency). Oh, and there are dragons too.

Lots of dragons.

Of course, the story doesn’t end with the regents of Aegon III. There is a lot more history to come, and Archmaester Gyldayn will get to all that too, in FIRE & BLOOD, Volume Two. But that one is a few years down the pike. So don’t get impatient. Gyldayn will get to it eventually, but he’s old, and so am I, and we both have other projects to tend to as well. The Citadel puts a lot of demands on an archmaester’s time.

Oh, and I almost forgot the best part: FIRE AND BLOOD will be illustrated throughout. No, it won’t be a huge coffee table book with art on every page, like A WORLD OF ICE & FIRE… but there will be lots of lots of interior artwork. Think more along the lines of the special anniversary edition of A GAME OF THRONES that we did a few years ago, or the gorgeous hardcover of A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS, the Dunk & Egg collection. We’ll have more than 75 black & white illustrations by artist Doug Wheatley.

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Along with the announcement, Martin let us know that the next book in A Song of Ice and Fire isn’t coming any time soon. In fact, that’s how he chose to open the blog post, presumably to avoid getting people’s hopes up: “No, winter is not coming… not in 2018, at least. You’re going to have to keep waiting for THE WINDS OF WINTER.”

Furthermore, as they may be related to this book on Targaryen history, GRRM mentions the Game of Thrones spin-off projects in development. We don’t know what any of these spin-offs are about, but we know they are all prequels, and that Dunk & Egg and Robert’s Rebellion are ruled out, which points most theorists to certain famous incidents in Targaryen history. Martin is seemingly aware of this, but he isn’t going to slip up:

“Oh, and I should also say… as most of you know, HBO is presently developing a number of different prequels to GAME OF THRONES,” Martin begins. “I know I am going to be asked whether those shows are going to be based on material from FIRE & BLOOD. It’s a logical question. The only answer I can give is… ah, well, no one is sure yet, and anyway, I am not allowed to say. So let’s move that to the side.”

If the “no one is sure yet” comment mystifies you, remember that, though many spin-offs are at some stage of development, according to HBO programming president Casey Bloys only one of them will be produced, at least for a start. If Martin is in the loop and isn’t lying, this may mean HBO hasn’t decided which spin-off to go with yet.

So that’s it! If you’re into fictional histories, today is definitely a good day for you. If you’re still hopeful for Winds to arrive anytime soon, maybe not so much. Personally, by this point I have accepted we’ll get it whenever it’s done—if it’s ever done—and there’s nothing we can do about it, so let’s just be happy with what we’ve got: five enormous tomes of A Song of Ice and Fire, a number of novellas, in-universe histories, and, of course, seven seasons of Game of Thrones, with the eighth and final season coming next year. But, before that, on November 20 this year, you’ll be able to get Fire & Blood!

274 responses

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    1. I’m pretty sure TWOW is the most tricky book he’s had to write thus far. So on top of being a slow writer, the actual content of the book is another variable for delay. I’m still on the second book so I’m not in any particular rush for book six but it’s still an unfortunate, if unsurprising, turn of events.

      I am interested in getting Fire & Blood though. I LIVE for lore.

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    2. GRRM is not our bitch etc etc and he can write what he wants, when he wants. I fully support that.

      But with his focus on other projects, there seems little doubt he has lost interest in his own story. For the first time I acknowledge it is highly unlikely he will complete his magnum opus. People have been saying it for years and I have always scoffed it. Today, I’m a convert. We’ll never see it end in print, not by his hand.

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    3. Ross,

      He may finish or he may not. Personally, I think TWOW is probably coming some day. I’m not so sure about ADOS, but it’s possible. But I have a relaxed attitude now. The show has long surpassed the books, so there’s no urgency in that respect anymore. We’ll get it whenever we get it. I fully recommend this attitude to everyone; it’s much less anxiety-inducing. If that means you have to lose hope for the books to come out at all, well, at least you won’t be disappointed if they don’t, and you’ll be pleasantly surprised if they do.

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    4. So it will cover roughly 150 of their years of history, which would also contain the Dance of the Dragons years. That could be some additional useful resource material if they were to choose that for a prequel. If not it should still be interesting and maybe someday a show/movie could cover that.

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    5. Yea guys we should prolly give up him ever finsihing the series he started out with. Guys old af for 1. Hes also the biggest troll i have ever known, because he will die before the series can ever be completed. Stick to the shows and let them steal his lime light is out best, most sweetest revenge. xD

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    6. Ross,

      Totally agree. It sometimes feels as though we’re not entitled to be pissed about this within the fandom. Nobody can argue that of course GRRM has a life to live etc. and I certainly don’t begrudge him as much enjoyment as he deserves, but cards on the table time: these delays are just grossly unprofessional and compounded by the fact he’s actively misleading his fans.

      His comments have indicated that the book is just around the corner for years now, and now it’ll be at least 2019 before we see it (which we won’t). If I kept extending deadlines with false promises like these I’d have been fired from my job long ago.

      By my reckoning, his current pace has yielded half a page of text each day. I could do that in the dark (albeit not as well).

      Added to that, how long has he spent on this latest book? It’s almost 1000 pages long. Seems to me that a tatements such as TWOW being his top priority are lies, pure and simple.

      Get used to it folks.. we’ll never see the end of this story published.

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    7. I would have way more respect for George if he was just honest and that he’s lost interest.

      I feel like he’s taking the piss out of us with these deadlines. The earliest one was late 2015 and now we are in 2018 and he said there’s STILL no chance of it coming this year.

      Either he’s INSANELY delusional about himself and his work or as I’ve stated, he’s taking us for fools.

      It hurts to slam the man like this because deep down I love him and respect everything he’s done but this is becoming ridiculous.

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    8. Edward: So on top of being a slow writer,

      I would like to understand how GRRM can maintain his claim that he is a slow writer when he can bang out almost 1000 pages of faux history in the past approximately two years.

      And yes, Ross, I have long ago arrived at your point.

      So, Q, long ago I resolved that I would not spend another dollar to GRRM enterprises until I had read the concluding volume of ASoIaF, whether that takes seven, eight or nine volumes to complete. Until the books that were promised are published, no being distracted by GRRM side gigs.

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    9. In reality, he probably finish TWOW & ADOS 5 years ago!! After the success of the first season, or two, there was probably a deal to NOT release them until after the show ends. Think about it: Us book readers will still read the new books AND watch the show. We’re a given. But if the books got released first and spoiled the show for anyone, well that could be bad for business. There’s just too much pent up hype, from years of speculation. That’s why he’s got so much free time to write all of these other books, and be a celebrity. Mark my words: TWOW will be released soon after the show ends and then ADOS will be a respectable length of time after that.

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    10. Holly shit?!?! I almost filled my depends when I saw this…I had to check for news twice just to make sure!

      At this point any release by Martin having to do with “A Song Of Ice And Fire” is the stuff of myth and legend…like the Second Coming or Dr. Dre’s “Detox” …

      Hey I’ll take what I can get at this point! 😁✌👍

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    11. Shay: In reality, he probably finish TWOW & ADOS 5 years ago!!

      Shay, I have to admit, the novels already being finished and on ice is the theory I dare not hope for. Yes, it is logical that he is free and easy now because his ASoIaF work is done. It is either books already written or books never will be written, one or the other. S L O O O W
      writer is a fiction and a cruel hope.

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    12. Shay,

      There is so much wrong with this, and I don’t understand why people keep coming up with this theory. I have never heard of this kind of deal before. I mean, the Harry Potter movies started before the books were completed, but a deal was never struck for Rowling to delay the books for the movies’ sake. And HP is a lot more popular than GOT. Besides, if Martin were to take such a deal, that would make him a sell out. Let’s not forget that he wanted AFFC/ADWD to be made into three seasons instead of one. That would mean two extra years of not releasing a completed book that his fans are publicly dying for. No, the simpler answer is probably the correct one. It took him 5 years for Feast and 6 years for Dance. His writing is slowing down and it’s becoming increasingly difficult for him to finish.

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    13. Apollo:
      Ross,
      Get used to it folks.. we’ll never see the end of this story published.

      I have hopes for TWoW, but not so much for ADoS.. And due to the “divisive” ending we’ll get in the show, I can just imagine the kind of debates it will spark along the lines of “this can’t be the ending George had in mind”, “this character’s fate would have been ‘this’ or ‘that’ in the books”, etc. etc.

      Oh, the fun! 🙂

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    14. Enharmony1625,

      I can just see it now…

      Fandom: “That ending sucked!”
      GRRM: “Hey, don’t look at me.”

      Fandom: “That ending was f*cking awesome!”
      GRRM: “Exactly how I told Dan and Dave to do it.”

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    15. I don’t see GRRM ever finishing this series.
      Somewhere along the way, he fell way too in love with this world, and the tale grew far beyond the point of where it can be completed.
      Sub plots within sub plots, characters on top of characters, side stories that lead to 1000 other side stories,
      I just cannot see him being able to pull all the strands together, and if he does, it will certainly take more than 2 books.
      I wouldn’t be surprised if hes written 1000+ pages of manuscript for TWOW and still has not reached any of the major plot points he intends to reach in order to make for a complete book.

      Maybe he will prove me wrong and do it, but I just cannot see it happening,
      and I’ve stopped waiting.
      One day, if he releases these books, I’ll be first in line to buy them and devour them.

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    16. Young Dragon,

      I don’t see why this is so difficult to believe. And I don’t think comparing it to HP, in popularity, is sound. HP was geared towards young adults and children, which is an entirely different demographic. This is different; but, just as crazy in popularity, for adults. Everything about ASOIAF/GOT is different. So to say that just because that kind of deal wasn’t done with HP, or LOTR, or anything before it, doesn’t mean it can’t happen now. No one knew the kind of Pandora’s Box this was going to be. Have you ever heard of a show go to the lengths it has, or had the budgets it’s had? The show is bigger, and, financially, more important (right now) than the books. We’re a captive audience. But, it’s too big to gamble with. Maybe that’s because we’re dealing with adults, and not children. GRRM is a prolific writer to the nth degree. He practically vomits books. I don’t think he’s slowed down at all.

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    17. Honestly, I couldn’t give less of a shit about GRRM or any of his bore-inducing companion books. And even when TWOW does come out, I won’t be buying.

      All hail HBO.

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    18. Shay,

      No side benefits from this. GOT was gaining in popularity and was a ratings monster long before they outstripped the books. And why would Martin allow a show to spoil his books?

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    19. BeardedOnion: I would have way more respect for George if he was just honest and that he’s lost interest.

      I suspect that it’s a different problem: GRRM has become too interested in the world-building at the cost of his interest in telling the stories.

      Marlana: Yes, it is logical that he is free and easy now because his ASoIaF work is done

      Quite the opposite of being logical, that is a very fallacious conclusion! For one thing, who said that he is “free and easy”? And if he is free and easy, then there certainly are lots of alternative explanations. The biggest problem with this sort of “conspiracy theory thinking” is: what would possibly inspire him to sit on the books? He’s going to lose a ton of potential readers by not getting the book out until after the TV series is done. (And, of course, if his publisher caught wind of this, then Martin would be dealing with a huge lawsuit: they are going to lose a ton in sales because of this.)

      Martin almost certainly has accepted the fact that the TV show is a far greater commercial and critical success than his books will ever be. Networks will be trying to come up with a new Game of Thrones for a few year, just as book companies were looking for the new Harry Potter and record companies were looking for the new Beatles. (As you might have noticed, both searches are still ongoing!) The books, on the other hand, obviously are not going to be remembered as great literature. But, on the other hand: the TV show is telling his story. He’s the guy behind what is an analog of War and Peace or Sgt. Peppers for TV. And his story is reaching a much bigger audience then ever would have been possible from just a fantasy book series.

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    20. Marlana,

      Not to be an asshole, but this theory is just as dellusional as GRRM himself.

      I think it’s safe to say that TWOW was one hard piece of work. The story has never been this bloated, with maybe 20 living POV characters and who knows how many new ones. It was a difficult book, and GRRM is a slow writer. So it took him some time, longer than he expected and longer than we hoped for.

      And then, in 2014, the show began spoiling the books. It was very subtle, at first, with the White Walker babymaking scene and the Night King. But I do think this is the point where GRRM finally realized he’s fucked. Because by the time season 4 was out, season 5’s scripts were already finished and included even more spoilers (Stannis’s entire arc moved into TWOW territory, although we can’t know for sure how much it’ll differ in the book we do know Shireen’s sacrifice is straight from the books). More spoilers, and more proof for GRRM that the series was overtaking him.

      And when the realization finally dawned on him that he had no chance to finish before the show (which was absolutely NOT going to wait for him to get his lazy ass writing), I think he simply gave up. He has lost interest in the broader story, and feels no urge to focus on it, let alone complete it.

      TWOW will release, I’m certain. But when the book ends, and ASOIAF is extended to 8 volumes (which it’ll pretty much have to be, considering the story is far, far from being complete), and each of the coming books could take an equal amount of 7-8 years… Well, I can’t count on a 90 year-old GURM to finish this story.

      And so, I match GURM’s commitment to his fanbase and story with my decision to never again purchase anything he writes. The ending of the show will satisfy me, and free me of GURM’s bullshit forever.

      And for those saying GURM is not our bitch, and that he has every right to do whatever the fuck he wants… True. He has every right. And we as a fanbase also have the right to be disappointed, because I have never seen a writer with this many accolades treat his own legacy like crap as much as GURM does.

      For all those who realize the books will have no conclusion, do yourself a favor and join the boycott. The alternative is decades worth of dwindling hopes and frustration.

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    21. Enharmony1625: And due to the “divisive” ending we’ll get in the show, I can just imagine the kind of debates it will spark along the lines of “this can’t be the ending George had in mind”, “this character’s fate would have been ‘this’ or ‘that’ in the books”, etc. etc.

      I know I sound like a broken record, but the ending will be divisive among fans because different fans wants very different types of endings. There still are a lot of fans in denial about the fact that this is a modern story and thus not following the norms of Tolkienesque Epic Fantasy. So, when the show gets to the end, and there is no “good” or “evil,” and no magical relics of importance or anything like that, those fans are going to be pissed. But, then: they were going to be pissed if the book series ever concluded!

      The question is, will Joe and Jane HBO Subscriber like it? That is, has the show set up who Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, etc., are well enough so that their final “big” choices make sense in light of 7 series of character evolution? Are the motives of the Walkers and others plainly enough stated that whatever dilemmas these things induce are clear to the audience?

      If the ending is done well, then a lot of fans are going to complain that it was “obvious.” However, fans have been obsessing about this for as much as two decades: and a lot of things that we consider “obvious” are not obvious to people who do not spend time discussing this with other people. After all, an argument against Jon being Rhaegar & Lyanna’s son is that “it is too obvious.” However, it wasn’t “obvious” to most readers or viewers. Instead, it made sense in retrospect. And that is what the show-runners are hoping to have: a conclusion that makes sense in retrospect to Joe and Jane HBO-Subscriber, even if it is Obvious to Joe and Jane Fanchild.

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    22. He’s not sitting on the books. I don’t see much point in doing so.

      Though, I admit there is one thing in particular that does at least make me wonder. His now infamous January 2016 update post. He said in that post that in the spring of 2015 he told his publishers he thought he could have Winds out by Halloween. So October 2015.

      Now, I understand some people are not good judges of their own progress on things, but something doesn’t add up there. We’re talking now 3 years ago. It is difficult to fathom how someone can believe they will be to finish the book in less than 6 months and still not finish it over 3 (will be 4 by 2019) years later. That doesn’t add up, whether you’re a bad judge of your own progress or not.

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    23. Doesn’t matter what George announces. Some people will just go on sharpening their axes to behead the goose that lays our golden eggs. It makes me rather ill.

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    24. Marlana,

      It is probably much easier to write about lore and histories than it is to make original plot threads for the future of the series. But you’re right, it’s odd that he’s still finding time to do everything BUT take his own masterpiece seriously.

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    25. orange,

      This is why I believe, quantity wise, hes probably written more than enough to release a book, but still not taken the plot far enough.
      The story is just too big for him.

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    26. orange: That doesn’t add up, whether you’re a bad judge of your own progress or not.

      I think that this does tally, for three reasons. One, when people are working toward deadlines, there is a much higher level of focus and energy. If you miss that deadline go and then have no deadline at all, there is a huge crash: and progress doesn’t just slow, it often stops altogether. Trying to build back up to the intensity that you had when trying to make the deadline is hard: and it can take not just months, but years. If GRRM is like most people, then he probably did not resume good progress on Winter for quite a while.

      Two, GRRM was toying with the idea of redoing things with some character. He mentioned this on his blog that it was something that could not be done on the show, because at that point the show had already committed to something very different from the character. (It might be that the character is dead, or it could be a character like Sansa where the show adapted heavily based on what they thought Winter was going to provide.)

      At this point, Martin might feel that the books have to deliver something different than the show offers. Moreover, it really has to be something more than the quaternary characters he introduced as world-building PoV characters in Crows/Dragons: that obviously was going to differ. That would encourage him to make this change.

      And that creates the problem: altering what a main character does requires not so much editing as surgery. Numerous other PoV lines will need to be rewritten to accommodate the changes to the plot and/or to make sure that any important story elements lost from the original narrative arc are made present in another character’s narrative arc.

      The third and final reason why we should not be that surprised is that Martin himself stated in January 2016 that not only was Winter not done, but it actually was not that close to being done. What that also tells us is that you are very correct about what a bad judge GRRM was about his writing pace. One could suggest that he was living in a much bigger fantasy world than Westeros ever will be by telling himself throughout 2016 that he’d have the novel out before the TV adaptation!

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    27. mau,

      I mean, as opposed to individual plot points, the ending itself as well as the fates of the main characters will be a subject of endless debates and theorizing in comparison to what would have happened in the books. And yes, it’s rather obvious. I was just being a bit facetious. 🙂

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    28. Ten Bears: Fandom: “That ending sucked!”
      GRRM: “Hey, don’t look at me.”

      Fandom: “That ending was f*cking awesome!”
      GRRM: “Exactly how I told Dan and Dave to do it.”

      This made me smile. sounds logical. Yet, even with all the moaning, I predict the Targaryen saga will be a huge seller.

      On a different note, TB, I actually googled the Dolce commercial you mentioned on the thread about Emilia Clarke and her charity video. She was adorable, as you said, but the big surprise was Kit – I thought he was very dapper. Plus, he actually SMILED through the whole thing, so much so that the dimple in his left cheek showed. It was charming.

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    29. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,

      I can just see it now…

      Fandom: “That ending sucked!”
      GRRM: “Hey, don’t look at me.”

      Fandom: “That ending was f*cking awesome!”
      GRRM: “Exactly how I told Dan and Dave to do it.”

      LOL

      George probably lost interest the moment he realized the show was going to beat him to the cliffhanger reveal of Jon Snow’s fate after his death…

      We’ll see “The She-Wolves of Winterfell” and “Fire & Blood part 2” before we ever see any whiff of Winds of Winter, if ever. And we won’t ever see any of Dream of Spring other than any snippet of the outline of it that D&D choose to use in their version of the Finale.

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    30. Wimsey,

      Oh I completely agree. My only point of contention would be that I don’t think HBO is tailoring the ending for casual fans. At least not in terms of plot points themselves. Simplifying or trimming down plot details perhaps, but that is also just a symptom of the more restrictive medium of television. I do believe that D&D will follow all the major plot points that GRRM told them as well as the fates of the main characters. I think it would be a travesty if they didn’t. If we do get ADoS, for instance, and it was then revealed that D&D wussed out on the ending, that would be a lasting blemish on the TV series.

      On the topic of the divisiveness of the ending, there is just no way that D&D or GRRM can deliver an ending that pleases even the majority of fans. It’s the blessing and curse of having a story and characters that we get so invested in. In my mind, the worst way the series could end would be, (1) to wuss out and have the ending be too “Hollywood happy” (all the good guys live, Jon & Dany rule together, people getting married, etc.), and (2) to be overly depressing and dour (nearly everyone dies, and there is just misery at the end). Finding the balance between the two is incredibly difficult, and I don’t envy the task that D&D and GRRM have at achieving this. As one of my old music teachers once said, “The artistry is in the balance”, and that has always stuck with me.

      Ultimately what I want from the ending is just what you alluded to — a good story, and resolutions for the main characters that make sense given the journey they’ve been on.

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    31. Enharmony1625:
      Wimsey,

      Oh I completely agree. My only point of contention would be that I don’t think HBO is tailoring the ending for casual fans. At least not in terms of plot points themselves. Simplifying or trimming down plot details perhaps, but that is also just a symptom of the more restrictive medium of television. I do believe that D&D will follow all the major plot points that GRRM told them as well as the fates of the main characters. I think it would be a travesty if they didn’t. If we do get ADoS, for instance, and it was then revealed that D&D wussed out on the ending, that would be a lasting blemish on the TV series.

      I do believe that, to a large extent, D&D are following at least large parts of the Outline for Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring that George provided to them and the HBO execs in 2013…but, yea, George changes his mind a lot; and re-writes a lot; and that was 5 years ago, so I’m pretty sure at least some things in that outline have changed (at least for George.)

      Not that I ever expect to be troubled by that, since I don’t ever expect that Dream of Spring will ever come out, and if it does, it won’t be written by George (another Wheel of Time situation, perhaps.)

      I still hold out hope for Winds, though (in 2-3 yrs…maybe??)

      I’ll buy Fire & Blood. I love lore, after all.

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    32. 8 plus years for TWOW is an absolute joke.

      I wouldn’t mind it so much if GRRM wasn’t such a defensive whiner about it. He’s allowed to take as long as he wants, but no one is allowed to bring it up on his blogs, ask him, etc. etc. yet he can spend all his time blogging, doing 50 other projects, going to conventions, yada yada.

      Only way he can salvage this is if he announces that SURPRISE he also completed ADOS and both will be released in 2019 after the show ends, but thats about a 1% chance.

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    33. George: I do believe that, to a large extent, D&D are following at least large parts of the Outline for Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring that George provided to them and the HBO execs in 2013…but, yea, George changes his mind a lot; and re-writes a lot; and that was 5 years ago, so I’m pretty sure at least some things in that outline have changed (at least for George.)

      Yeah, but I don’t think George would change major things, like who ends up on the IT/ruling at the end, or perhaps even the fates of the main characters. That would be difficult to change this far into the story given all the clues & foreshadowings he’s put in. So that’s where I suspect the show and books will meet up.

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    34. I don’t think any major plot endings for these characters will change and they are going to be in the adaptation what George outlined for them. I think some other things such as the Wight hunt for example is a fill in the blank creation for TV and I would be incredibly surprised if it ever happened in the books.

      BUT, all the major plot points George has planned, I’m sure will be hit and will stay the same. It is still a licensed adaptation after all.

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    35. Young Dragon:
      Shay,

      No side benefits from this. GOT was gaining in popularity and was a ratings monster long before they outstripped the books. And why would Martin allow a show to spoil his books?

      This. GRRM has publically alluded to his dissatisfaction that the show will take major points to the ending of the books. He once laughed at the idea that GoT would outpace the books. It’s also the reason why Dunk & Egg will not be the spinoff. He doesn’t want an adaptation to tell his story again before he can.

      He wrote himself into a cavern when he threw in subplots to cover the aging up of the younger Stark kids. Why he didn’t do a time jump who knows. Now he has subplots and related characters people have written theses over, and in the end, their dead ends. The books do have a different direction than the show, and one would hope his desire to tell his story would power him through. But parts of the story may need the D&D Dornish Solution, and I don’t know if GRRM can bear to do that.

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    36. It wouldn’t upset me so much that we will likely never see his ending to these stories if he wasn’t such a good storyteller. The Hodor name resolution is pure George and it gutted us all. I don’t think anyone could pick up these books and give us any ending close to GRRM. But alas I also believe we won’t ever see either book and it just makes me sad. Thankfully, D&D have done their damn best to give us an end to his beginning an middle. And we know that truly no matter what happens, we will see AN end to this story in about 13 months. Thank the gods.

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    37. He’s never going to finish The Winds of Winter, much less the final book. It’s sad, really, because if it weren’t for the fans of the books, the TV series and all the rest wouldn’t have happened for him.

      What a disappointment he’s turned out to be.

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    38. orange,

      This is one of the examples I was eluding to in my earlier rant. He had set himself an number of deadlines in 2015/2016. Now, we all know that deadlines are almost always physically achievable (especially in this case as GRRM would have enough leverage with his publisher if they weren’t). Added to that they got pushed out a couple of times by a few months.

      So he expects us to believe he could see the literary light at the end of the tunnel in 2015, and now here we are halfway through 2018 and that light has gotten farther away? Come on.

      This is my issue. He’s lying to his fans. How can TWOW be his top priority when he throws out another 1000 page book?

      The ones I feel really bad for are those most loyalty fans- who’ve been reading these books for 22 yrs and who’ve put him where he is today. Shame on you, GRRM.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Well, he’s not my bitch…but I’m not his bitch either. I like the series (both versions TV and books have their good points and their not so good ones). As an older person myself I understand that one can slow down/have health problems etc. However, it’s not as though when I watch/read the news headlines in the morning I am waiting with bated breath to see if the next book in the ASOIAF saga has been published. I have heard one argument that the book being published this autumn contains matter that has been excised from the main saga (it would have to be backstory in that case, I guess). There are lots of good books to read though and I doubt the Targaryan (sp?) fake history book will find its way on to my shelf. But…as the saying goes, you pays your money and you makes your choice so other folk are at liberty to read it if they wish.

        Quote  Reply

    40. So realistically we won’t get Winds of Winter until after the story is told in Game of Thrones. This is surely a huge mis-step by GRRM and his publishers unless they can finally get it out next spring and capitalise on the hype from the show ending.

      I am sure there will be some small differences in the book compared to the show but it’s very likely we know all the big plot points by now.

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    41. Shay:
      Luka Nieto,

      To me, that’s the only scenario that makes sense.

      Seriously we know his publishers and HBO applied pressure to GRRM to get Wind published before S6 because it was going to give major spoilers from the book – Shireen Burning, Jon resurrection and becoming king in the North, death of Hodor etc.

      There is zero chance it’s written, he’s clearly lost some of his drive and desire to finalise but I still believe we will get this book. A Dream of Spring however is becoming very unlikely.

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    42. NinaD,

      “But parts of the story may need the D&D Dornish Solution, and I don’t know if GRRM can bear to do that….”
      ———————
      The “D&D Dornish Solution.” I like that. 😬 I may have to filch it. I’ll be sure to attribute it to you though.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Groaaaan… Well, GRRM is not my bitch but I’m just disappointed he prefers to spend his time and energies – as is his right – on things other than ASOIAF.

      I think there was an interview a few years back on his writing process, the way he works, where he compared it to gardening. He doesn’t have a detailed plan (as opposed to knowing the very broad strokes), he writes and then sees where it takes him. He also (ominously) said something like once he knows how a story is going to end, he loses interest.

      The thing about gardening is that you can’t just keep planting more and more flowers and shrubs and vegetables and trees and herbs and whatnot and not do any weeding or pruning, otherwise your garden is going to end up an untidy mess at some point. Oh, and it also helps of you have a fairly good plan so you know what goes where.

      I think Whimsey above also made a good point. It seems GRRM has become so enarmoured of his world and especially the Targaryens that he’s more interested in world-building and backstories and sidestories than the hard graft of actually finishing his main story, ASOIAF. Writing something as complex is hard work. You need to write, revise, rewrite. Write, revise, rewrite. Accommodate new ideas, so more revising and rewriting. Keep a handle on all your characters and timelines, ensure internal consistency, choose your words and metaphors carefully etc. etc.
      (Of course, it is possible that when all is said and done, “The Targaryen Chronicles” or whatever end up being his magnum opus and ASOIAF was just a sidestory, lol!)

      Also, new projects are often more interesting than old, unfinished ones. GRRM has been writing ASOIAF since the early 1990s! No wonder he seems to be getting a bit tired of it, especially if there are (well-paid) opportunities to indulge in his present interests – Targaryen history and HBO prequels.

      I’m not all that into the Targaryens but I’ll probably buy this book. Maybe wait until it comes out in paperback, I prefer paperbacks. But when/if TWOW comes out sometime in 2020 or whenever, I’ll get a hardback copy as soon as I can. I’m fairly pessimistic on ADOS ever getting published. (Also, I’m not sure GRRM can finish the story in just two books.)

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    44. Shay,

      I don’t think he’s finished that long ago. Maybe he finished WoW. But we know how GRRM is the perfectionist. Before he will put WoW in the store he will write around 200/300 pages of the next book. He wants to make sure the cliffhangers are there where they should be. But if he’s finished with WoW it would have happened last year. Maybe the publishers are waiting till season 8 is out, because once the show took the books over this was the only way they could solve that problem. If the books come out now I probably would wait till the show is over.First the book was the first medium, after season 5 (6 and 7) the show was first. If now the books was first, I have to switch to much which is which.

      And there are people who always first watch the movie or show before reading the books.

      And maybe HBO asked him to delay when he signed some extra contracts (new shows are coming from him).

      But what does it matter? Maybe HBO forced him to wait, maybe his publisher thinks it’s better to wait, Maybe he’s finished but is polishing his story a little more, and maybe he’s just not finished yet. But the fact remains, no matter what the reason is, you just have to wait, don’t waste your energy into getting an explanation because the only one you get is: It’s not finished, even if it’s true or not.

      personally I think he’s finished but he is polishing the book.

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    45. Shay,

      That’s the only scenario that makes sense?
      How about “He started taking a million other projects and lost interest”?
      Look on his wikipedia, his book releases starting from the first book of the series; At first he was writing a book every 2 years, and was writing almost nothing else (just the dunk&egg stories). Then he started writing a billion other books, and the ASOIAF books take 5-6 years each.

      Now he’s doing the same, writing a bunch of other books, plus he worked on the show for what, 4-5 years?, he’s in talks to take part in 4-5 GoT spinoffs (most likely just 1 will see the day, but still), and he also wants to produce another show of his own based on some other book…
      It’s not rocket science; The more “not writing asoiaf” things he does, the least time he has for asoiaf. Even if you discout the loss of interest, there’s just so much time he can spend working. If he spend it on other things he doesn’t spend it on asoiaf.

      And about the usual “grrm isn’t your bitch” comment… No one’s anyone’s bitch. But writers are one of the very few jobs where you can just stop working on what you started at any time you want, and expect people to be ok with this.

      Try telling your clients you don’t feel like working on their project 5/7th of the way in. Or to tell them you don’t know when it’s gonna be done, but ‘not in 2018’, while you work on other stuff.
      If they get mad, tell them you’re not their bitch.

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    46. Thronetender,

      “On a different note, TB, I actually googled the Dolce commercial you mentioned on the thread about Emilia Clarke and her charity video. She was adorable, as you said, but the big surprise was Kit – I thought he was very dapper. Plus, he actually SMILED through the whole thing, so much so that the dimple in his left cheek showed. It was charming.”
      _____________
      Thronetender:

      I’m glad you were able to find the Dolce and Gabbana commercials with Emilia C. and Kit H.

      Neither of them get to smile and laugh very much on GoT… I’m trying to remember: Other than Jon Snow’s scene with Ygritte (“Oh! A spider! Save me Jon Snow! My dress is made of the purest silk from Tralala-eeday.”), has the King of Brooding ever laughed?

      I can’t recall Daenerys “I will take what is mine by fire and blood!” Targaryen ever laughing. It’s a shame in a way. Emilia is so witty and funny in real life, and has that 1,000 megawatt smile and serotonin-overloaded personality that make her so endearing in interviews – and in the D&G commercial. I hope there are casting agents and directors who are anxious to showcase her comedic talents. (Her “Han Solo” movie opens in a couple of weeks. That could be interesting. I hear she plays

      a fellow smuggler or thief and love interest of Han Solo.

      .)

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    47. Ryan,

      No chance, my friend. If TWOW comes out before the show is over, I’ll eat my hat. And books 7 and 8, if they ever are released, are decades away. I myself am not going to bother with the wait, and do not intend to purchase another GRRM product ever again. The show’s ending will be the true ending, as far as I’m concerned, and when it’s done I will lay this story to rest.

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    48. aiad,

      Of more importance to GRRM:

      The New York Jets have the #3 overall selection in today’s NFL Draft! Will they finally get the franchise quarterback that has eluded them all these years?

      If GRRM’s LiveJournal blog mood indicator switches to “joyful” or “happy” tonight at around 8:15 pm EDT, you’ll know that the Jets were able to snag Oklahoma QB Baker Mayfield.

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    49. GRRM is not going to release Winds of Winter until after the series season 8 ends.
      That was clear to me for more than a year… watching the changes in script and characters first, and then the rush to complete GOT.
      It makes the most sense to separate the two versions of this fictional history.
      So let’s all enjoy what he’s set up for future fun shows and stop pestering him!!
      It’s the right move, really…. and I bet he has much of it done.

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    50. Ten Bears,
      Jon laughed when Sansa took a swig of ale just after their reunion in 6×03. Jon: “You’d think after all these years the Night’s Watch would have learned how to make a decent ale.”

      I don’t recall Dany actually laughing at all, but she smiles when discussing Rhaegar with Barristan. And then there’s the huge grin on her face when crowd-surfing at the end of 3×10.

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    51. Young Dragon:
      Firannion,

      People have every right to be upset with the man.

      We actually don’t. We got the books that we paid for. We can reread them as often as we like. What he owes his publishers, and when, is between him and them. But George does. not. owe. us. one. word. more.

      Yes, we have a right to our feelings of sadness, loss, disappointment if we don’t get what we want when we want it. But we were supposed to learn, starting back in kindergarten if not sooner, not to throw tantrums or go around acting ‘entitled.’ Adults are supposed to own their own feelings, especially potentially destructive ones like anger, instead of projecting blame onto others.

      When readers start verbally abusing GRRM, using expressions like ‘lazy ass,’ that’s inappropriate behavior for an adult. And when I see readers behaving that way, all I can think of is, ‘Man, you don’t deserve anything more from George.’

      Also, the I WAAAANT GIMME GIMME GIMME crowd might stop to consider that being nagged and feeling like thousands of people are breathing down your neck is not conducive to the creative process. Every time some asshole types ‘Finish the book George’ in the comments section after George posts about something completely unrelated in Not a Blog, a paragraph of TWoW or ADoS dies.

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    52. aiad,

      Your analogy doesn’t hold up. Readers are not GRRM’s ‘clients.’ We don’t pay his advance before a book is written; we buy the product after it is complete. His contractual obligations are to his publishers, and we aren’t privy to the terms of their contract. Considering that any book authored by GRRM is going to leap instantly to the top of the best-seller list upon publication, they’re probably delighted to have those rights whenever he’s got something ready.

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    53. Firannion,

      With respect, I’d point out that referring to people as assholes is equally inappropriate.

      People actually do have a right to be upset, their emotions are their own business.

      Especially those who have followed his work for 22 years, who’ve paid a substantial amount of money for his works, who have devoted much of their time (and pleasure) to discussing, theorising and debating his work (such as on this very site), and (most specifically) who have been misled by the guy on two counts: his progress with TWOW and that TWOW is his priority.

      Fire and Blood volume 1 proves that those words were completely false.

      I’ve seen a lot of comments online and on social media- and whilst many comments are the usual troll drivel (and excluding those), The vast vast majority are unhappy with his speed, work ethic and his misleading comments.

      He’s really damaged his reputation with many of the fans, and only has himself to blame (as he himself has said in the past).

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    54. GRRM is not our bitch, as is the popular response to complaints about his slow delivery.

      While I agree he isn’t our bitch, I disagree that he doesn’t owe the collective fan base something. We bought the books, made/visited web sites, and hyped the TV show that made him rich and famous.

      Follow me here on this. Breaking Bad, The Walking Dead, Dexter, and many other great, great TV shows were well loved by fans. There are/were recaps to episodes about those shows, but not much else. GOT had an EXISTING fan base of thousands of thousands of people already online on existing websites discussing and theorizing the books. When the show came out, and people went online the found that there were already blogs and websites that were already years old discussing his works. The book fans fanatical love of his works helped drive the hype machine that made the HBO series so popular, and helped make GRRM wealthy.

      And he continues to crap on his core group of fans with every distraction of “imaginary history” and/or “Hey look, I edited more wild cards books”. If he would finish the damn story, I’d happily check out what ever else he is doing. I refuse to purchase or look at anything else he is doing until he does. Which he probably won’t.

      I feel like the only reason I would intentionally purchase any current work of his would be so I could leave a one star review on amazon with “Not Winds of Winter” as the description. But then I’d be giving him money, which I am done doing.

      He’s not our bitch, but I’m done being his.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Roast,

      “He’s not our bitch, but I’m done being his”… quote of the day. Couldn’t put it better myself! 😋

      I’ve also decided I’m not gonna buy this latest book out of principle. Words are wind.. but money talks.

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    56. Ten Bears,

      I know this isn’t a football post, but if GRRM thinks getting a “franchise quarterback” from this (albeit stacked) 2018 draft is going to help his lowly Jets, then he is forever disillusioned.

      I will definitely buy Fire and Blood (once it gets released on paperback). I’ve always found his histories pretty fascinating; I do wish, however, we could get some character perspectives like in Dunk & Egg. It’s a shame that someone that is this good at writing is only giving the histories through an archmaester’s perspective. It would be awesome to have some A Dance with Dragons stuff with POV’s.

      As to TWOW, I guess or watch continues… but I do expect this book to be released at some point. I mean, how could he have so much written and have so many updates (though few and far between) if this wasn’t going to get released? I just think this book’s material is really tough to write, as others have said. And the story is just so huge at this point that there is so much he wants to tell. Unless GRRM’s health unexpectedly takes a turn for the worse, I expect to at least get TWOW.

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    57. Luka Nieto,

      That’s nice and all, but there’s one thing that even GRRM might want to consider: if people give up, they’ll lose interest in his other works as well.
      I, for instance, was rather excited to get into backstories and side stories when I was still hoping for Winds. By now, I don’t bother anymore. The side stories of a story that will never be finished are just not all that exciting. I won’t be buying any more Westeros stories because all of them will ultimately feel unfinished.

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    58. Firannion,

      This is true. And even so, his lack of commitment towards his fanbase (and his own legacy) is reaching an all time high. The answer should be, as you say, no to post online tantrums and phrases such as “lazy ass”, but rather to withdraw our support in his future endeavors. I’m speaking, of course, to those who are like me unsatisfied with GRRM at the moment. Join the boycott.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Apollo,

      Yes, I think many fans, even old fans from before the show was a thing, are upset because GRRM doesn’t seem to be straight with them.

      As early as the postscript to AFFC he said ADWD would be out “next year”. In the event, it took 6 years. And now with TWOW he’s been making the same kind of vague promises for years, and it’s 7 years and counting between books.

      I think a lot of people would be a lot happier if he was honest with himself and the readers and just flat out said he’s putting asoiaf on a hiatus for a few years while working on other projects because he’s not in the right headspace to create the next book the series deserves. That’s fine. The creative process cannot be forced. If it is, it could result in a sub-par end product. Fine.

      It almost seems like he’s trying to be all things to all people and has got himself into a right muddle. I actually feel a bit sorry for him. (But I want my TWOW now, dammit! 😉 )

        Quote  Reply

    60. A boycott will cause nary a ripple. If you want to punish George for making you defer gratification, you’re just going to be more disappointed by how little he’s affected. ‘Fire & Blood’ just became available for preorder and is already #1 on Barnes and Noble’s best-seller list. People will want to buy TWoW and ADoS regardless of how long after the TV series is over they come out. Even if they never do, the author is assured of a comfortable retirement.

      Here’s a better idea: Find other great things to read in the meantime! There are many other worlds out there to be discovered.

        Quote  Reply

    61. Firannion,

      This sounds like some sound logic. Do you have any recommendations of other great works like this? I was thinking LotR because I haven’t read those yet, but I don’t know… I kinda want something completely new because I already know a lot about that story through the movies.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Firannion,

      There is no meantime for me. I’m done with ASOIAF. And even if the boycott does nothing, at least it lets me ease my mind away from the series. The knowledge that I will not read these books, whether or not they come out, allows me to put the whole thing behind me and move on rather than cling to any false hopes for who knows how much longer.

        Quote  Reply

    63. Jaehaerys,

      The Witcher Saga by Andrzej Sapkowski (sp?).

      You may have heard about the games that are based on these books, but I promise you they are the real deal. In my opinion it’s an even better, more socially relevant fantasy than GoT. And a show is coming up in Netflix in a year or two, currently in pre-production.

      It’s very easy to get into because the first couple of books are a collection of short stories featuring the titular character. And also, the entire series is finished, so you can binge-read them start-to-finish.

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    64. It’s been said before by others before, but I’ll say it again; George’s inability to focus on TWOW resulting in an incomplete ASOIAF isn’t really going to affect him financially. After all, he’s a very wealthy individual who worked hard for many, many years and is finally getting some reward for all the hard work he has put in. However, what it might do is make some people think about buying the first in an uncompleted series by another less wealthy author because they have been burnt by George and don’t want to miss out on an ending again. That makes me slightly sad, especially with the vast number of people around the globe who don;t read any books (even if they can read).

      George has quite clearly lost control of the narrative, and I don’t blame him; his editor should have reeled in some of his excesses years ago. He obviously doesn’t spend a lot of time writing TWOW anymore as he has so many other projects running concurrently. Personally, I’d like him to come out and say he has been unable to finish the series, and instead will focus his time on other projects (which he is basically doing at the moment anyway). Although this will undoubtedly upset (and annoy) many fans I’d rather he’d be honest rather than continuing to lead people on. With Game of Thrones finishing next year we are still getting an ending anyway, so he does’t need to worry about that. If he was honest, I’d be more than happy to buy any books he publishes (if I’m interested of course), but at the moment? I don’t want to encourage his dishonesty.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Jaehaerys,
      Oh, a request for book series recommendations?

      I will always recommend two series by Dan Simmons if you haven’t read them. The Hyperion Cantos consisting of four books. The second is the lengthy two book series of Ilium and Olympos.

      I also recommend Connie Willis’ series that includes Doomsday Book, To Say Nothing of the Dog, Blackout and All Clear. She has some stand-alone novels I really liked as well.

      These are all science fiction fantasy and/or historical fiction fantasy. Maybe you don’t typically go for that genre but I’d suggest reading a little about them to decide. Ilium/Olympos is my favorite among these. I don’t have any uncommon recommendations for series closer to ASoIaF. The Wheel of Time is well known. That’s ‘closer’ but it’s also so super long and overly wordy. I myself have only completed through book 9 of 14 and it’s been complete for years. I’m not sure I’ll ever finish.

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    66. GORM:

      I myself am not going to bother with the wait, and do not intend to purchase another GRRM product ever again.

      Regardless of what I think of your contribution overall, I take issue with the highlighted (by me) word.

      A work of art, be it a painting, a book, whatever, is not a product. It’s not something churned out in a factory for the mass consumer market. GRRM is not a factory, he’s not churning out “products”. He’s a person, a very creative and talented person, who does something original, writes these fascinating stories. Works of art. Maybe not world literature, but still way better than a lot of fantasy literature out there. (Much of which do seem like products, to keep the lucrative franchise going.)

      Actually, I think a lot of modern “blockbuster” “franchise” movies are products churned out for the mass market, with more marketing than creative input. They might be entertaining while you watch but don’t linger with you afterwards.

      I dunno, maybe I’m just being a cultural snob, haha.

        Quote  Reply

    67. talvikorppi: I dunno, maybe I’m just being a cultural snob, haha.

      It does come across that way to me a little bit, though I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way 🙂

      I don’t think the word “product” needs to have the negative connotation that you’re assigning to it. A product is anything that is manufactured for sale, so I’d say GRRM’s books certainly qualify as a product. Personally I don’t see the need to parse words over it, but ymmv.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Jaehaerys,

      If sci-fi is your thing then I recommend the expanse series by James S. A. Corey. It’s a really well written, well structured 9 book saga with several accompanying novellas. 7 books have already been published, and the author is excellent at actually delivering to deadlines- with one released novel per year. Also it’s been adapted to TV to wide acclaim on syfy (season 3), and Netflix here in the UK (season 2). The show is excellent too in fact!

        Quote  Reply

    69. GORM,

      Clob,

      Thanks for the recommendations! I’ll certainly read a little bit into these. What stands out to me the most from these titles are those books by Connie Willis. I’m not sure if I’m getting the right impression but it seems like a dystopian/apocalyptic series, which I am very much in to. I’ve always enjoyed dystopian work. And I’m just now getting pretty into science fiction too (just TV shows and movies for now), so if any of these are up that alley I’m sure I’d like them.

      And to GORM: I’ve definitely heard of The Witcher Saga before, and it’s a good sign to me that it is interesting enough for them to make a television series out of it. I’ll check these out too.

      To Apollo: I’ve also heard of this series! I’ll look into this as well. Like I said above, I am trying to get more into sci-fi for sure.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Firannion: We actually don’t. We got the books that we paid for. We can reread them as often as we like. What he owes his publishers, and when, is between him and them. But George does. not. owe. us. one. word. more.

      I never said he was under any legal obligation to finish his books, but morally speaking, I believe he does owe his fans an ending. He chose to market his books as a series, so when I bought the first five books, I did so with the understanding that I was buying a piece of a larger story. Without an ending, that would make the other five books worthless, because then, it wouldn’t even be a story. They would simply be a list of random events that carry no significant meaning.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Jaehaerys,

      I tried to edit but ran out of time. I have also put “Annihilation” on my list of sci-fi works; I liked the movie enough although it confused me a bit at the end, but I heard the novels are great (I believe it’s a three part series).

        Quote  Reply

    72. talvikorppi,

      The word product maybe doesn’t always have the same meaning in every language. And when English is not your native tongue, it’s sometimes difficult to find the right word to use with all the possible nuances a word can have.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Mr Derp,

      Could be the language barrier. In my language, mass-produced goods are “products” (tuote), the pro… uhm, products of creative work are “works” (työ, literally “work”) or even “works of art” (teos, from the verb “to make”). Oh, and there’s “tuotos” and “tekele”, disparaging terms for shoddy, sub-par (creative) work.

      And I am a bit of a cultural snob. I just try to hide it most of the time. 😉 It’s not my fault, I grew up in a home where we had real paintings (including my mum’s) on the walls and reading an encyclopedia for fun was normal.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Jaehaerys: Do you have any recommendations of other great works like this?

      I typed a lengthy recommendation of the novels of Guy Gavriel Kay, listing reasons why I thought most fans of ASoIaF would enjoy them. But I seem to have exceeded my word ration for the day, as that post seems to have vanished into moderation limbo.

      Just try GGK. Exquisitely written historical fantasy. Begin with ‘Tigana.’ You won’t be sorry.

        Quote  Reply

    75. talvikorppi,

      It’s all good. There’s plenty of room for everyone to share their opinions and I welcome different perspectives other than my own whether I agree or not 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    76. Young Dragon: when I bought the first five books, I did so with the understanding that I was buying a piece of a larger story. Without an ending, that would make the other five books worthless, because then, it wouldn’t even be a story. They would simply be a list of random events that carry no significant meaning.

      I’m curious: What is the procedure for unenjoying books that you enjoyed while you were in the process of reading them?

        Quote  Reply

    77. Firannion,

      The reason I enjoyed them so much was because I assumed it was all leading somewhere. The anticipation of what happens next is what kept me turning the page and is what kept me reading well into the night. Maybe the journey is all that matters to you, but for me, it’s everything. I want to know what becomes of the characters I fell in love with. I want to know who lives and who dies, who has a happy ending and who has a sad ending, etc. Will Stannis take Winterfell, will Arya return to Westeros, how will the meeting between Danerys and Tyrion go? These characters are all on journeys and have made decisions, some good and some bad. If these books are simply going to cease without a proper ending for these characters, then what was the point?

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    78. Jaehaerys,

      I’m not sure if these would be your cup of tea, but you could give a try to Emmi Itäranta’s award winning Memory of Water and The City of Woven Streets (UK)/The Weaver (USA/Canada).

      I’ve only read the latter one, it’s wonderfully weird and absolutely enchanting. The first one is apparently more sci-fi/dystopia kind, with a strong message.

      And what’s best: they’re standalones, so no worries about a series not being finished!

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    79. Jaehaerys,

      Well, it’s kind of a football post since following the Jets is one of GRRM’s favorite pastimes.

      As for his “forget about 2018” for TWOW announcement, I wish he’d consider telling the world that the creative muse has left him –
      or post a link to B.B. King wailing “the thrill is gone, it’s gone away for good.”

      It’s not a matter of locking himself away in a room and sitting at the keyboard. Words don’t flow from brain to page just by flipping on a switch. I don’t begrudge the guy his golden years, unburdened by pressures and deadlines. I just think he should throw in the towel and admit he’s unable to finish the ASOIAF books. Maybe, just maybe, without the self-reproach and self-imposed stress, his muse might somehow return to him.

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    80. Ten Bears,

      I’d be inclined to agree if it weren’t for the fact that he’s churned out a bloody 1000 page book, so it doesn’t seem as though his muse has left him, only his ability to finish a task.

      Anyway.. I’m gonna try not to let this piss me off anymore…can we please get some new leaked set pics or other tasty titbits? 😋

        Quote  Reply

    81. Jaehaerys,

      This sounds like some sound logic. Do you have any recommendations of other great works like this?”
      ____________
      Thomas Harris: “The Silence of the Lambs” (great book; great movie adaptation) and it’s sequel “Hannibal” (great book; crappy movie adaptation).

      Forrest Carter: “Gone to Texas” and “The Vengeance Trail of Josey Wales.” The first book is often sold under the title “The Outlaw Josey Wales”, since Clint Eastwood and the screenwriter faithfully adapted it into one of the best movies ever made. Now that his son Scott Eastwood has grown up to be young Clint’s doppelgänger, Clint should adapt the second book and cast his son.

      James Clavell, “Shogun.”

        Quote  Reply

    82. Ten Bears,

      Pretty much what I think. He should’ve announced a hiatus years ago, done all his other favourite things, and maybe by now his shy muse, or inspiration, might’ve returned.

      I feel kind of sorry for him (I WANT MY TWOW NOW. Sorry, I didn’t want that to come out.) because he seems to have got into a right mess by trying to be nice to everyone. It’s not a situation conducive of highly creative work.

      Oh well, at least the show will give me an ending. I’ll still buy the ASOIAF books if they ever come out but it won’t be as fervent.

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    83. I’ve come to accept that he will never (never!) complete his main saga, nor even finish TWOW (what he had he used for the bonus chapters he read around, after those nothing was ever hinted anymore). ADOS is not even something to think about. Though I must admit that, in the end, I even prefer this situation: at least I can continue to figure out, or better to hope for, a “sensible” version of the characters’ arcs, without a delusional dose of fanservice he might put into according to what the publishers demand after the end of the show; or despite the cuttings, whitewashing, gross and petty simplification and favoritism etc. of the show.
      Besides, I even doubt that the showrunners know “so” much more than us, not due to their fault, but simply because I really doubt that GRRM himself knows how his story should/will end. There is quite a difference between having a static ending picture in mind for some of the characters; or truly understanding and dealing with their arcs and internal conflicts he based is story on. Personally I reckon GRRM barely has the latter. Something that’s gone worse after he decided to put into the badly written dornish and nuncles’ spin-offs, that just served his delusional attempt to work on boring and poorly executed soft porn or piratedom’s chapters. Would that he has stuck to the original 3 (or not more that 5) books, following the seeds he had sown in AGOT, everything would be done by know.
      What I really cannot understand is how the man himself and the publishers can really suppose (if not wish) that people, readers, will continue to care. I’ve lost the major part of my interest and being left without any hint of the fate of my favourites (I took care of, that is I took the time to read about them, for 5000 pages) and sure that I will never have the chance to know their “bookish” fate, why should I care about any other old Targaryen and the usual love-war-dragon-incest affairs of them; worst, being already aware that he will probably never complete this side project too. I suppose he was forced to work on that because of HBO’s spin-offs, to provide some content to the screenwriters, but probably will abandon it the same way, as soon as the new cheques arrive. I am not critising the fact he doesn’t care anymore, I am critising the subtle mockery.

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    84. I will go ahead and recommend “Yertle the Turtle”. Possibly the greatest book ever written on the subject of turtle stacking.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Ten Bears,

      Correcting Auto-Correct above: “its sequel”, not “it’s sequel.” (Don’t you hate it when Auto Correct “corrects” something correct so that it’s incorrect?)

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    86. Ten Bears: Now that his son Scott Eastwood has grown up to be young Clint’s doppelgänger, Clint should adapt the second book and cast his son.

      As an early Eastwood fan, and specifically, a fellow Josey Wales fanatic, every time I see pictures of Scott these days I have this desire for him to at least try to jump into those shoes. The market for that kind of movie isn’t what it used to be, but still. Scott has the look… He is considerably shorter than his father and I question whether or not he could pull of the squinty-eyed snarl with a cigar in his mouth and raspy comments, but I’d really like to find out. 🙂

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    87. Ten Bears:

      James Clavell, “Shogun.”

      Ooh, Shogun! Swoon, love, love, love.

      When the TV show originally aired in my country (1982, I think?), my dad had been going on business trips to Japan for a while, and our whole family gathered around the TV, even my kid brother (barely in primary school). We all loved, just loved it. The costumes, the music, the culture clash, the humour, the danger, the history.

      Afterwards I’ve realised a lot was due to the production values, the insistence and the tenacity of the showrunners (yes, two friends) to do it their way, even if it was something that had never before been done on TV. There are a lot of illuminating and hilarious stories about how they were filming it in Japan. Also, originally not even subtitling Japanese before Blackthorne begins to understand it. Aah. I’ve got so much love for this TV series.

      A few years later I read the book, and it was even better! I still regularly reread it, I love it. It’s a sweeping saga, so rich, so complex, so detailed. Even philosophical. And a standalone novel, so you won’t be left waiting for the next part for years.

      Before GoT, Shogun was my favourite, my benchmark TV series ever. The only one I’ve bought on DVD to rewatch before GoT.

      Konichi-wa.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Books to try:

      “Altered Carbon” by Richard K. Morgan (also a Netflix TV series)
      “Seveneves” by Neal Stephenson (heard Ron Howard will adapt it as a movie)
      “The Three-Body Problem”, “The Dark Forest” and “Death’s End” by Cixin Liu (that third book is epic)
      “The Accursed Kings” series by Maurice Druon (one of GRRM’s influences)

      Honestly, I don’t think Martin will ever finish the ASOIF books. TWOW will come out eventually, but that’ll be it.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Ten Bears: James Clavell, “Shogun.”

      On another Watchers thread, someone posted a link to a really good Guardian story about Nina Gold, in which it is divulged that one of the casting projects she’s working on is a remake of Shogun. I find that pretty exciting news. The 1980s mini-series starring Richard Chamberlain was damn good television for its time, but I think that’s a strong enough story to stand up to more than one attempt at dramatization. Gods, I remember a summer when EVERYBODY was reading that novel… and dropping ‘hai’ and ‘neh’ and ‘obrigado’ into unrelated conversations…

      It’s just too bad that Iain Glen is kinda too old now to play Blackthorne. He reminds me so much of Chamberlain.

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    90. Ten Bears:
      Ten Bears,

      Correcting Auto-Correct above: “its sequel”, not “it’s sequel.” (Don’t you hate it when Auto Correct “corrects” something correct so that it’s incorrect?)

      That happens to me also TenBears. I’ll admit I’m not the best person at being my own proofreader but I have sometimes typed stuff (not always here) and then had to go and edit what I typed because of a strange autocorrection.

      I don’t know what arrangement Mr Martin has with his publisher. Somebody mentioned above that the publisher is the party with whom he has a legal agreement. I’ve been somewhat disappointed with the preview chapters from TWOW that have been released if I am honest – well maybe not the Arya one so much, which did (with some changes in adaptation) make it on to the show. I know there is a school of thought that believes the preview chapters are leftovers that were moved back from ADWD. Obviously I am not privy to what Mr Martin does in his own home so I can’t say whether the chapters are leftovers or not. I’m thinking about trying the first Witcher book. I’ll see if I can get it on library loan before I spend any money.

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    91. Flora Linden,

      Just watched Altered Carbon recently, and was really surprised how much I liked it. Didn’t know it was based off of novels. I’ll check that book (books?) out for sure.

        Quote  Reply

    92. talvikorppi,

      I remember reading Shogun along with my roommate at the time, and integrating its culture into our everyday lives. For example, grocery shopping…

      “This is French Vanilla coffee creamer. I specifically asked you to buy Hazelnut!”

      “May I commit seppuku?”

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    93. Ten Bears,

      That’s why I always turn off all auto-corrects, predictive texts and the like. I want to make my own mistakes. Seven hells, I even drive a good old stick-shift car with none of the new-fangled backing cameras or parking automats etc. I want to look over my shoulder and swing out and in, I know how to parallel park myself, thank you very much. Luddite, me. 😀

        Quote  Reply

    94. Jaehaerys,

      That’s great – I think you’ll really enjoy the book too. (Morgan did write two sequels as well – “Broken Angels” and “Woken Furies”.)

      I’ll check out the Netflix series when it’s on DVD.

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    95. Young Dragon: I want to know who lives and who dies, who has a happy ending and who has a sad ending, etc. … If these books are simply going to cease without a proper ending for these characters, then what was the point?

      I want to know these things too, as much as anyone. I’m in my mid-60s, contemplating my own mortality on a daily basis now. Even if GRRM were totally on track, working on nothing else, I have no guarantee that I won’t be diagnosed with something next week that will prevent me ever from finding out how it all ends (not even the TV ending, which, in my view, doesn’t really count). When I read about someone like J. K. Rowling revealing the ending to the Potter saga at the deathbed of some little kid who won’t live until publication day, I get all sniffly and imagine myself dying without knowing what becomes of Arya or Tyrion.

      But that’s life. I also have to accept that I will never be able to afford to travel to all the countries that I long to visit (at least in part because I prioritized trying to make my living as a writer over doing things that reliably generate more income). Should I let those empty pages in my photo album taint my memories of the cool places that I have managed to visit in my lifetime on a limited budget? Not in the least. None of us gets everything we want. And feeling sorry for oneself gets old quickly, I find. Am I going to die wondering what was the point of my existence? Possibly. The forsythia bush next to my front porch is very very yellow just now, and for the moment, I’m going to let that be enough.

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    96. talvikorppi,

      I liked Shogun back in the day. Another TV series that prompted me to read the book (which was on at around the same time as the Shogun TV show or perhaps a little earlier) was East of Eden based on the John Steinbeck novel. That adaptation was actually more faithful to the book than the James Dean film (though I did like the film). Going further back it used to be said that the 1967 (though it was shown on BBC1 in 1968) version of The Forsyte Saga emptied the pubs in the UK. However, there were only 3 TV channels in the UK back then (says she revealing what an old trout she is). I didn’t see that much of the early 2000s version of The Forsyte Saga and I think possibly I was carrying too much baggage from the earlier version; I didn’t really see the three main leads as fitting their parts.

      On a last note, you don’t need to explain yourself about liking the finer things in life. (What annoys me is if I say I still like the show GoT, season 7 and all, there are some individuals who will infer I must be short of a few neurons – though I don’t think you have demeaned people who like the show). I’m not sure where you are based but I sometimes get a tad annoyed because where I live (in the UK) there is some reverse snobbery, there are some folk that try to belittle people being appreciative of an education, or folk speaking in a standard English accent or going to watch a Shakespeare play. Having said that not EVERYBODY is like that in the UK. I know I once texted in to a radio programme where the “You don’t need no education” debate was going on and explained that I was very glad my GP (doctor) had been properly trained and educated. Mind you, I have met people who have made something of themselves with very little formal education; I had a relation who had the gift of the gab and did quite well for himself in business (small business) though perhaps he wasn’t an exam passer so much. Sorry I had a stream of consciousness moment there and went on a bit.

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    97. Firannion,
      Thank you! You and me both.

      Firannion: Yes, we have a right to our feelings of sadness, loss, disappointment if we don’t get what we want when we want it. But we were supposed to learn, starting back in kindergarten if not sooner, not to throw tantrums or go around acting ‘entitled.’ Adults are supposed to own their own feelings, especially potentially destructive ones like anger, instead of projecting blame onto others.

      When readers start verbally abusing GRRM, using expressions like ‘lazy ass,’ that’s inappropriate behavior for an adult. And when I see readers behaving that way, all I can think of is, ‘Man, you don’t deserve anything more from George.’

      Also, the I WAAAANT GIMME GIMME GIMME crowd might stop to consider that being nagged and feeling like thousands of people are breathing down your neck is not conducive to the creative process.

      Amen.

      Firannion: Here’s a better idea: Find other great things to read in the meantime! There are many other worlds out there to be discovered.

      GORM:
      Firannion,
      There is no meantime for me. I’m done with ASOIAF. And even if the boycott does nothing, at least it lets me ease my mind away from the series. The knowledge that I will not read these books, whether or not they come out, allows me to put the whole thing behind me and move on rather than cling to any false hopes for who knows how much longer.

      My interpretation of what Firannion wrote is that the focus wasn’t on the meantime, instead it was on the “Find other great things to read”.

      And with “it” I have to assume you mean your call to actions a.k.a. boycott. And there we have what Firannion meant (I believe). I can see how you are done with ASoIaF…and I can see how much the knowledge that you will not read these books allows you to put the whole thing behind you…and move on………not.

      I think Firannion’s proposal wasnt’t the worst idea. There are many great stories to discover.

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    98. Firannion,

      Martin himself said he is obligated to finish the books. Personally, I don’t think he “owes” us a book, though many customers, understandably, feel otherwise. At the very least he owes us a good faith effort and he is failing miserably in that regard.

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    99. Rygar:
      This thread went way off topic and needs a mod.Can we get back to throwing tantrums at GM please?
      Far more amusing.

      Eat my balls, Ry. Eat ’em up good.

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    100. There is absolutely no logical reason for that, the show has almost certainly revealed the major plot points from Winds, waiting until after it has finished achieves nothing.

      Kim Renfro who is one of the top ASOIF/GOT journalists wrote sometime ago that although she has not met GRRM she believes (from those close to him) that he has simply lost motivation and desire to close it out having seen the show overtake the books.

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    101. Firannion,

      Aaah, Iain Glenn as Hawthorne (be still, my beating heart), but you’re right, he’s too old.

      I just wish that if they make a remake of Shogun, they do it properly. Even more authentic, even more Japanese, even more about culture clashes, competing religions/philosophies. Even more production values.

      Today’s Shogun would probably show all the battles in graphic detail. They were all off page, off screen in the book and the TV series, apart from a few shirmishes.

      Aah, I and everybody else old enough to have seen “the original Shogun” will always compare the new one to it. That’s not to say the new one could not do some things better, and be a great series on its own. It just won’t be my Shogun.

        Quote  Reply

    102. This thread reminds me of similar threads on Led Zeppelin boards. Jimmy Page has been promising new solo music, and “to be seen to be playing” live since at least 2010 with nothing to show for it but studio album reissues and other archival projects. He mentions new music in practically every interview he gives, which immediately devolves into a shouting match between the die-hard hagiographers who claim that he owes no one anything beyond the body of work we already have and the fans who are vocally tired of empty promises.

      I imagine GRRM and Page have much the same mindset. They are both rich, retirement age and the expectation are so sky high for these highly anticipated projects that it likely either seems too daunting or not worth the incredible headache to them.

      GRRM has it much worse, however, because any college freshman can light up and listen to LZII today and be just as blown away as his mid-70’s ancestors were, whether Page records another note of music or not. I haven’t read the books, nor will I if they are never finished – even though I adore GoT.

      So, while I appreciate GRRM’s dilemma, my thoughts are much the same as mine towards Jimmy Page: it’s your prerogative to leave your work unfinished but have the decency to be forthright with the fans. Stop promising due dates that you know you will never meet!

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    103. Apollo,

      If you could write anything comparable to GRRM you would have already. What deadlines are you talking about anyhow? Did the publisher put out a release date and he miss it? You are not a world renowned writer. That is why you have to work whatever job you mentioned (just like the rest of us) and its not comparable to GRRM taking his sweet time with a book.

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    104. Firannion,

      Yes, life is full of disappointment, that’s not a new development. But people reserve the right to express their disappointment, which goes back to my original post. I’ll tell you this, I don’t have any desire to reread the books if there never will be an ending.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Hursta1,

      You’re 100% right. I’m not a world renowned writer. I never claimed to be. But what I am is an Editor of a leading quarterly publication within my profession and I have been for 5 years. So I’m very familiar with the concept of a deadline, as well as the author’s ability (and commitment) to realistically meet a deadline.

      As for these specific deadlines that I’m referring to..they were set by GRRM himself and his publishers in 2015. That was three year ago:

      “We all wanted book six of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE to come out before season six of the HBO show aired. Assuming the show would return in early April, that meant THE WINDS OF WINTER had to be published before the end of March, at the latest. For that to happen, my publishers told me, they would need the completed manuscript before the end of October. That seemed very do-able to me… in May. So there was the first deadline: Halloween”……

      …“If I could deliver WINDS OF WINTER by the end of the year, they told me, they could still get it our before the end of March…,

      ….I was immensely relieved. I had two whole extra months!

      I could make that, certainly.

      ……..

      “Here it is, the first of January. The book is not done, not delivered. No words can change that. I tried, I promise you. I failed. I blew the Halloween deadline, and I’ve now blown the end of the year deadline. And that almost certainly means that no, THE WINDS OF WINTER will not be published before the sixth season of GAME OF THRONES premieres in April (mid April, we are now told, not early April, but those two weeks will not save me)”

      Source: https://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

      His very own words. In May 2015 “That seemed very do-able to me.”

      And later that year he was CERTAIN he could meet an extended deadline of two months.

      I rest my case. 🤚 🎤

        Quote  Reply

    106. Flora Linden:
      Books to try:

      “Altered Carbon” by Richard K. Morgan (also a Netflix TV series)
      “Seveneves” by Neal Stephenson (heard Ron Howard will adapt it as a movie)
      “The Three-Body Problem”, “The Dark Forest” and “Death’s End” by Cixin Liu (that third book is epic)
      “The Accursed Kings” series by Maurice Druon (one of GRRM’s influences)

      Honestly, I don’t think Martin will ever finish the ASOIF books. TWOW will come out eventually, but that’ll be it.

      The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan (upcoming TV series)
      The Amber Chronicles by Roger Zelazny
      His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman ( upcoming BBC series)
      The Witcher Books by Sapkowski (upcoming Netflix series, and the Witcher 3 game happens to be the best video game of all time!!)

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    107. Apollo,

      GM’s editor, Anne Groell, once noted in an interview that our queso-stained wretch has missed scheduled submissions of TWOW so he missed checks for that work. Just wanted to throw that onto the pile.

      TAKE THAT FOR DATA, HIRSTA1!

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    108. I wouldn’t have read the next book before the HBO series was over anyway at this point. I don’t want to get my head back into the book world and then have to switch right back to show world and then wait 10 years for the next book if it ever comes.

      I can’t complain about GRRM though. He’s never promised the book would be out at a certain time. I feel really bad for him that he put himself into this position of having the show pass him and reveal all the answers he’s been building to for decades. However bad anyone else feels about the situation, he’s done far worse to himself than to anyone else. I compare him to David Gerrold, author of the Chtorr series, of which the last book came out TWENTY FIVE years ago. Gerrold pops up every few years to say the book is almost done and then disappears again. He did a gofundme last year saying that books 5 and 6 were “done” and he just needed to finish editing them. Eight months later he hasn’t said a word about it. GRRM is a saint compared to him.

      This has been going on so long I can remember defending GRRM by talking about Gerrold when it had “only” been 20 years.

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    109. Apollo:
      Ten Bears,

      “I’d be inclined to agree if it weren’t for the fact that he’s churned out a bloody 1000 page book, so it doesn’t seem as though his muse has left him, only his ability to finish a task….”

      _______________
      Thank you for pointing that out. After skimming through the article and reaching the part that quoted GRRM saying forget about TWOW in 2018, I glossed over his description of “Fire and Blood” Vol. 1.

      (He “chose to open the blog post” by stating : “No, winter is not coming… not in 2018, at least. You’re going to have to keep waiting for THE WINDS OF WINTER.”
      At that point, I thought, “not good, George, not good. That’s going to go over with the fandom like a ton of bricks.”)

      After reading your comment I went back and read the rest of the article, and saw that “Fire and Blood Volume One” is 989 pages long, with 75 pages of illustrations. That’s still 914 pages! Maybe his first muse left him, and he moved on to a new one. Either way, you’re right: He’s managed to churn out a nearly 1,000 page book.

      Also, I couldn’t help but notice that in touting “Fire and Blood Volume One”, he teased Volume Two:

      “There is a lot more history to come, and Archmaester Gyldayn will get to all that too, in FIRE & BLOOD, Volume Two. But that one is a few years down the pike. So don’t get impatient. Gyldayn will get to it eventually, but he’s old, and so am I, and we both have other projects to tend to as well.

      A “few years down the pike”? All I can say to a purchaser of Volume One is caveat emptor. Or whatever that saying is that GW Bush butchered… something like: “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

      P.S. Did I misinterpret his statement “You’re going to have to keep waiting” for TWOW as sounding a bit…. callous towards his fans?

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    110. Ten Bears,

      Ya know what, I kinda thought the same.. his comments do seem to be pretty unapologetic and dismissive towards the fans. But at the same time I know it’s so easy to misinterpret text that I kind of put it to the side so it’s encouraging (or perhaps discouraging) that I’m not the only one who thinks this.

      His tone is certainly more IDGAF than his 2016 blog. It was his comment “it’s a hefty book” that had me spitting coffee across the table. Talk about a slap in the face!

      And I suppose whilst it is easy to misinterpret written statements, GRRM is an esteemed author and he knows full well that the fandom pore over every single word he writes on these blogs. So he could easily have worded this more sensitively and I’m now left wondering.. does he really NOT give a f*ck?

        Quote  Reply

    111. Dame of Mercia,

      Thank you for your kind words, Dame of Mercia. You’re always so conciliatory whenever there is a fracas here on WotW – not that my misunderstanding of an English word was a proper fracas. Oh, and it’s no secret I’m a Finn – my nic, after all, is a Finnish word meaning “winter raven”.

      You make a very good point about reverse snobbery. Why should I be ashamed of having grown up in a home where books, reading, art, intellectual and practical pursuits were valued. My parents weren’t rich when I was a kid. The encyclopedia I so loved to read as a kid was second-hand, my dad built our sofas out of plywood and mum sewed the poison green cordyroy covers (come on, it was the 1970s!). My mum’s an artist so I got totally spoiled at home with artist quality brushes and papers and paints by age 4. School art classes were a shock – “Am I meant to draw/paint with this?”

      I went to bog standard local state schools. Even my high school (years 10-12, which weren’t compulsory at my time and which you had to apply to) was bog standard, you could get in with grade point average 6.9 at the time. (Our grading system being 4 (fail) up to 10 (excellent).) The legal requirement to get to an academic secondary school was 6.5. So not exactly a snobby school. But, boy, did we have some excellent teachers! I loved high maths, I loved biology and geography, I loved even “religious education” because the teachers were so great. I loved languages (English, Swedish, German) despite the teachers. I loved Finnish (mother tongue) and art, gods our art teacher was great… We didn’t call teachers mr or miss or mrs Something. Usually just “you”, if you had to speak directly to him/her. Behind their backs they had their nicknames. They gave us a great education. So great that 10-15 years later, you’d need a g.p.a. of 9.2 to get into my old bog standard school.

      I’m glad I went to that school when it was bog standard and diverse. None of elitism, we all mixed together and worked towards a common goal, the matriculation examination (kind of like A levels but more diverse, more like Scottish Highers, in my time you had to do at least 4, you could do up to 6, it’s different now.)

      Why am I telling all this? Because my high school had a culture that it was cool to be a swot. All the cool kids were also swots. Well, not nerdy swots, but it was cool to get good grades – preferrably if you skipped classes or didn’t do your homework. (I still have my almost virgin English exercise book, show it to nieces and nephews, “this is what we were supposed to do back then.”) Aah, the arrogance of youth. But we all did well in the exams, to the best of our ability. Most were working class kids wanting to better themselves, maybe go to uni.

      It was a good school, the best part being the diversity, then the great teachers. We’ve mostly gone on to do great… uhm, at least fairly good things.

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    112. Ten Bears,

      Volume 2 may come sooner than we hope. In one of his “monkeys on my back” posts, he reassured his customers that Fire and Blood would come after he finished TWOW. We’ll have to see which muse he finds prettiest.

      I dare you, TormundsWoman, to challenge me on this. I have the quote and link in my back pocket. I triple dog dare you.

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    113. talvikorppi,

      Many years ago there was an option to ‘matriculate’ in English and Welsh schools (not sure about how it was in Scotland) though it had gone out by the time I was at school. To put things in perspective I’ll own up to being in my late 60s and my Mum was in her early 30s when she had me so obviously her school days were some considerable time ago but it was my late mother that told me about matriculation. I think you could still pass your “O” levels or whatever they were called back in the day (‘school certificate’?) but in order to matriculate you had to pass a certain combination of subjects. I’m not sure of the ins and outs of it and my mother isn’t around any longer to ask her but I know she told me that in order to matriculate she had to pass a foreign language in the combination of subjects and she failed French but passed Welsh (but as she was from Wales she grew up speaking both Welsh and English so it wasn’t a foreign language to her, but still it was all means to an end I guess). So my Mum did matriculate because she passed Welsh. I had not guessed you were from Finland. I was talking – oh a long time ago – with someone I knew and mentioned that an acquaintance who had grown up in England but of Polish parentage said that Polish had more cases (as in the case of declension, though I’m sure you know that) than Latin and another person chimed in that Finnish had more cases than Polish!

      It was nice of you to say I’m conciliatory. I have been plain spoken (can one allude to the spoken word when using a typed medium?) when some folk have belittled those who like the show even when it has diverged from the books. I mean it’s okay for people to dislike the show but they don’t have to demean people who still like following it. Your school seems to have been a nice school even if as you say it wasn’t particularly posh.

      I’ve mentioned this before on other threads but one of the reasons I am not as critical of the two Ds as some other parties is that being the age I am, the show ending to GoT may be the only ending I get.

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    114. I don’t care. As it’s said before: GRRM finishes the book series or he doesn’t.
      My finish is the end of GoT.
      It’s GRRM’s right to work or not to work on books and stories and what ever he wants and is able to.
      I don’t read his blog or not-blog or what-it’s-called -: boring.
      Before I become insulting… uhm…
      it’s not okay, I think, to hook people on and then leave them, but sitting in the off and telling tales *rhubarbrhubarb*
      Better say: I can’t manage my garden anymore, it outgrew, I wanted too much a once.
      Or say; I don’t know.
      Perhaps he still believes, that he can finish the (book)story, or that he wants to believe, he can.
      But he should be matured enough not to promise again and again.
      That would be fair.

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    115. Cumsprite:
      Ten Bears,

      “Volume 2 may come sooner than we hope. In one of his “monkeys on my back” posts, he reassured his customers that Fire and Blood would come after he finished TWOW. We’ll have to see which muse he finds prettiest…”

      —————
      This is bizarre. For some reason, as I read what you wrote I heard it in the voice of Uncle Junior in “The Sopranos” when the feds try to induce him to flip:

      U.S. Attorney: “We want Johnny Sack. But more than him, we want Mangano and Teresi.”

      Uncle Junior: “I want to f*ck Angie Dickinson. Let’s see who gets lucky first.”

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    116. Luka Nieto,

      An open thread and you tell people to stop expressing their opinions? A mod with a bit to big of an ego maybe? I’m sure this won’t make the cut.

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    117. Wimsey,

      Isn’t that the point though. The series has become bigger than the books. The man made his money, from the show. So maybe it was agreed he would have to wait til the show ends to release the books. Dude got paid, why not agree? Get rich, string your fans along, let the studio give a washed down version, then release your last two books within a couple of years. Most people don’t remember your beginning, but how you finish. Wouldn’t that make book fans forgive him if he released the last two in two years? Just an opinion. Get paid and then get paid again.

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    118. My theory is GRRM is finished, he doesn’t want to release Winds prior to or during season 8 because of the differences between the book and DD show version. I look for it to be released fall 2019.

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    119. I’m with Shay on this one. Now, I don’t think he’s completely finished ADOS but I would not be shocked that he’s finished Winds and is holding it until after the show finishes. I say that because the flame wars that sparked up a couple years back between show & book readers were intense. The criticism & hate the show was getting was strong. Especially following the assassination of Jon Snow. I think the show runners gave George a chance to get Winds out before they spoiled Jon’s revival but he couldn’t make it and they wouldn’t delay.

      I expect George has since finished and his Winds will be much much different than what we’ve gotten on GoT’s. For example, I truly expect Lady Stoneheart to kill Jamie or Brienne in Winds. Also, she’ll play a big part in reviving or crowning Jon. I also expect Cersei to die and her part we’re seeing in the show will be Faegon. Now say just those scenarios are true, imagine the grief D&D would be getting for going a different route than what George wrote in Winds? Imagine the criticism of straying from the source material.

      The show is the bigger beast than his books. Way too much money involved to even risk jeaopardizing the end. They want to close strong not negatively. Also, don’t sleep on George releasing Fire and Blood as a companion to Winds to give us a background on Targ history. Say The Blackfyre Rebellions and Dance with the Dragons because if Faegon is revealed to be a Blackfyre it may confuse many readers or feel like it came from out of nowhere if it just pops up in Winds.

      By releasing F&B the year before, he gets out a manuscript for the spin offs and hints at what’s to come in Winds & (fingers crossed) Dream. We will be getting another Dance of the Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellion rolled into one with Faegon, Jon, & Dany in Winds. And imagine if Faegon gets the throne with Sansa as his Queen because both Jon & Dany die defeating the Walkers…

      That would be bittersweet but also karmic & justifying in a way because the Blackfyres believe they were the true heirs to the throne because the line of Aerys, Rhaegar, Jon, & Dany actually came from Aemon the Dragonknight and not King Aegon & his son Daemon Blackfyre. But Aemon’s line had to sit the throne because his line would produce Jon (Fire & Ice) who would stop the Walkers… But once that task is complete the true heirs (Blackfyres) reclaim their throne… Now that would be some epic storytelling and I hope that is what George has in mind.

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    120. Joseph Conway,

      Conspiracy theories are not healthy for anyone, which is why I suggested not going that way in this thread, but I haven’t moderated against it, as you can plainly see. So I guess your conspiracy theory about me deleting conspiracy theories or dissenting opinions from this thread is wrong. What a shock.

      All of you guys who say he’s actually finished with TWOW (or even ADOS) aren’t taking into the account the backlash he would face if this were to be made public, not to speak of his publisher most likely suing him — this should go without saying, but they DID express a preference for publishing TWOW before the show surpassed the books. This is a conspiracy theory, using the faulty logic of conspiracy theories. It’s not true just because it fits the scant information we have, and you are ignoring obvious points against it.

      Aegon the Icedragon: I also expect Cersei to die and her part we’re seeing in the show will be Faegon.

      If that’s true, that’s pretty terrible storytelling. Hyping up a character as a villain for the “good guys” for years, only to have her killed and usurped by a nobody newcomer? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing against your idea that much, because I believe you could be right, but I sure hope Aegon is nothing more than a diversion. Cersei is much more interesting in the show, yes, but even in the books Cersei is more interesting than this Young Griff fellow.

      If it was all about the Blackfyres as you suggest, Martin has done a terrible job of explaining this or even teasing it for the average reader (ask the average reader, who isn’t involved in online discussions; they probably won’t even know what a Blackfyre is.) Uber-fans such as ourselves can get a bit too into the minutiae of the worldbuilding, so the plain reading of the text and the plain expectations of how this story may play out seem too simple for us. These fans will be inevitably disappointed. What’s obvious to them is not obvious for most. Which is why Jon IS Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s son after all, and that was shocking for pretty much everyone beside people like us. And that’s also why the resolution to this story won’t (or shouldn’t be, at least) about some tertiary faction of character who most readers don’t care or even know about.

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    121. Aegon the Icedragon,

      Eh.

      GRRM has already expressed distaste with the show. I doubt he cares so nuch about potential book-reader hate that he would actively hold back and continue to piss off fans. From a sales standpoint, purely, it would be best for him to jump on the show’s hype bandwaggon and release just before or after a season. And now he has one final season to jump on.

      But will he make it in time? Is the book finished and gathering dust on his shelf until a pre-season March release? Or a post-season September release?

      I doubt it.

      And why? Because he’d have announced something. There is literally no case in not announcing a strict release frame. He could announce the writing is finished and that he is heavily editing. Again, from a sales standpoint, it makes sense to get the hype ball rolling.

      So this big consiparcy theory, and especially the one that includes ADOS (don’t get me started)- is a total dud.

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    122. I have a theory that winds of winter is done but will not be released until after HBO season 8 is shown. HBO probably doesn’t want the books to steal any thunder from them revealing the end games.

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    123. Lol. You guys are probably right. Probably just the fan in me holding out hope to still get Winds at least. ADOS is probably hopeless…

      And Luka I see what you’re saying about Young Griff. My “premise” on the possibility is sound but if true, the way GRRM would have approached it probably wouldn’t have been. Cersei is most certainly more interesting than Griff but remember even she wasn’t an initial POV character.

      So just as he made her more vital to the story as a POV, I could see him making Griff more important (thankfully not as ANOTHER POV) by being linked to other main POV characters like (Sansa) as he begins to trim them down to just a few. And of course, this is all because he’s constantly adding more and more (which caused this fiasco in the first place).

      So though my tinfoil fanfic may seem like an excuse for GRRM, it still springs from his style of adding more and more to the story. So in my opinion it would be a nice “attempt” at epic storytelling if paired with F&B and a history repeating itself of Blackfyre Rebellion & Dance of Dragons. But probably not done in the most sound and literary pleasing way (thus the F&B crutch to explain things he thought of but just couldn’t stuff into Winds & Dream).

      So he still has the creative mind to come up with the ideas. Just not the time & patience to put it into book form like he’d like to do. So he creates a crutch in F&B that his ASOIAF fans can use to help fill in some details… Most likely just “My Dream of Spring”. But damn what a Dream… lol.

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    124. For all those who thinks that GRRM doesn’t owe us anything – think about this: Most people in the world wants to know the ending to any story; even as kids, when our parents told us stories, what we wanted most was to know what happens in the end. Its something inherent about humans I think to be curious about what happens next in a story, or how a story ends. If you don’t agree with this – no point reading this any further.

      When I went to a store and bought “A Game of Thrones” back in ’97, I did so because it was a story book; I didn’t know it was a first part to a story when I PAID for the book; because of that I didn’t get a conclusion to the story that i PAID. But after reading it I thought it was good and wanted to know how it ends in the next book. Its that promise of a conclusion that made me, and all other readers, kept buying his books. He still OWES us that ending, because we kept PAYING for his books hoping to see the end to a fantastic story. I understand most of the readers of GoT today are not pre TV show fans, but put yourself in my shoe and go back to ’97 where there were no internet to know that GoT was supposed to be a 7 books….Would you have PAID for that first book in ’96 if you knew its a story without a conclusion?

      I was – and still am – a rabid fan of GoT books. Today I am diagnosed with terminal cancer, I would be lucky to see the end of the TV show in 2019. Now will never know how the book ends. He have let us all down, and blatantly played with us and lead us on. I hope he will at least put out TWoW one day – he OWES his fans, at least, that much.

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    125. Yawn. Another ‘history’ as told by an unreliable maester narrator about the narcissistic, elitist and dysfunctional Targs and their like. Can’t help but wonder if, unlike TWoW, he is issuing reference material before the adaptation. Goody, goody, sigh.

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    126. Infinity War Imp:
      I have a theory that winds of winter is done but will not be released until after HBO season 8 is shown. HBO probably doesn’t want the books to steal any thunder from them revealing the end games.

      I’d be pretty sure that HBO can have no possible legal recourse to demand and enforce this. GRRM and his publishers would never agree to this contractually.

      Unless I am misinterpreting your meaning…

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    127. Jaehaerys,

      If you have not read LOtR, you are missing out. Start with The Hobbit by the way, then read the three LOtR books.

      The stuff they had to cut out of the books to fit LOtR into three movies is well worth reading the books for. The stuff they added to The Hobbit to STRETCH it into three movies was simply bloated bullshit. Tolkien is the boss when it comes to fantasy.

      Also, if you have not done so, check out Terry Brooks. THAT GUY knows how to pump out some books, and there are 20 some Shanarra books that are great. You can go online to his website and see where the best place to start is for a new reader. GRRM took over as “My favorite author” for a while…until he started stringing us along. Terry Brooks is now back on top, and you could take years reading his stuff that is already published and out there.

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    128. I have not started reading the books yet. I want to see how far GRRM gets first. Also, I do not want to confuse Show! Canon with Book! Canon – though I do believe that if characters and side stories in the books (e.g., “Young Griff”) were excised from the show, that’s a good indication they were red herrings or irrelevant to the end game.

      If I eventually read the books even though GRRM never finishes them, I’ll just assume that “A Dream of Spring” was going to be 750 pages of wall-to-wall Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies.™

      Because I really don’t care who, if anyone, gets to be King , Queen, Regent, or Prime Minister at the end, or what kind of government emerges if “the wheel” is broken. Nor am I emotionally invested in Dany’s putative baby, Cersei’s supposed pregnancy, Baby Sam’s fate; who marries whom; or whether Jon dies, Dany dies, or they both die.

      For me, I started watching the show and kept watching for one reason and one reason only: 👸🏻

      …………
      ™ Talvikorppi.
      (My apologies. Though I am aware you used that description derisively, I liked it so much that I filched it. 😉)

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    129. Roast: Also, if you have not done so, check out…

      From my biased and bloated perspective 🙂 , if you want to taste some nontraditional fantasy, try the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. Some really heady stuff that questions the legitimacy of childhood fables in a dire adult world. In the university, they focus on alchemy rather than magic. Folk songs written and sung can either bring a curse or fiscal benefit. And heroic deeds are either misconstrued or intentionally shoved into gossip. It’s an engrossing journey, as told to a chronicler, with the very act of telling having serious ramifications. You may find it interesting.

      Even GRRM has recommended it. I have an ongoing bet on who will produce the next volume of their lauded series first…Rothfuss or Martin (both had their most recent volume published in 2011 and have since been distracted considerably by adaptation and tours). I assume Rothfuss will cross the finish line first (admittedly, Martin’s ASoI&F has broadened more than Rothfuss’ KC) and I will lose yet another bet involving dinner and drinks. I should have learned my lesson long ago….oh well. :/

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    130. Hasindu:
      I was – and still am – a rabid fan of GoT books. Today I am diagnosed with terminal cancer, I would be lucky to see the end of the TV show in 2019. Now will never know how the book ends. He have let us all down, and blatantly played with us and lead us on. I hope he will at least put out TWoW one day – he OWES his fans, at least, that much.

      I’m so sorry to hear this. I had a nightmare that I was diagnosed with CHF (our beloved whippet died from it) and my overriding concern throughout the dream was that I would never know how GoT ends. Even when I woke up, I was still worried I might not make it to the end. I can’t imagine how it must feel to have that as your reality.

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    131. Infinity War Imp:
      “I have a theory that winds of winter is done but will not be released until after HBO season 8 is shown. HBO probably doesn’t want the books to steal any thunder from them revealing the end games.”

      _________________
      That’s a big stretch, and there are a hundred reasons why it is almost impossible to entertain the notion that TWOW is already done but is being purposely shelved until after S8 airs.

      However, assuming for the sake of argument that your theory is true, why would releasing TWOW “steal any thunder from them revealing the end games [sic]” in the show? The show is ~ 92% complete. (67 out of 73 total episodes.) The “end game(s)” wouldn’t be revealed until “A Dream of Spring.” I question whether TWOW will even catch up to the show’s chronology of events as of the end of S7.

      (Correct me if I’m wrong: It’s my understanding that the most recent book published left off with the characters geographically and chronologically situated approximately where and when they were at the end of S5 of the show. From comments on this site, I thought the last book left off with the NW idiots stabbing LC Jon; Arya still in Braavos; Sansa twiddling her thumbs in the Vale; Stannis preparing to engage the Boltons; Barristan about to lead the defense of Mereen; and Tyrion on a boat playing board games and watching turtles or something like that.

      I did read the pre-released “Mercy” chapter of TWOW: Arya is still in Braavos with the theater troupe, although Mercy/Arya realizes that her little extracurricular assassination likely means the end of her fledgling acting career.

      )

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    132. BeardedOnion,

      With regards to Lady Stoneheart and other show changes. He said something along the lines of “if I was in charge I would have handled it differently”. It was a fairly recent interview I think.

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    133. BeardedOnion,

      https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/5237850/george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-change-lady-stoneheart

      Okay, here’s the interview. So the quote changed a bit in my head, but I still think the interview shows signs of dissatisfaction with the show. The whole “I always wanted them to stick to the books but they didn’t” part in particular.

      I think he’s mostly (and rightfully) bitter that the show outpaced him and is treating some of the nuance in his books (which some might call bloat or filler) with disrespect (which some might call logical adaption).

      But I wouldn’t want to put words into his mouth.

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    134. Ten Bears: Correct me if I’m wrong: It’s my understanding that the most recent book published left off with the characters geographically and chronologically situated approximately where and when they were at the end of S5 of the show. From comments on this site, I thought the last book left off with the NW idiots stabbing LC Jon; Arya still in Braavos; Sansa twiddling her thumbs in the Vale; Stannis preparing to engage the Boltons; Barristan about to lead the defense of Mereen; and Tyrion on a boat playing board games and watching turtles or something like that.

      You read ‘Mercy’ before anything else? Wow. You should take advantage of your situation and read ASoI&F in reverse order. That’d be a trip. 🙂

      Sorry you’ve been spoiled from such a treasured, fascinating read, but you have it basically correct…(respecting the future readers)

      Tyrion and Jorah have made it to Meereen and are enjoying the company of chaos and pale mare disease. Also, Dany is in the desert dancing with Drogon, dysentery and the Dothraki, Bran is learning from the 3EC and the CotF, Brienne and Jaime are going to have dinner with the undead and the BwoB, winter is pummeling the north and has arrived in KL with Varys paving the way for fAegon/YG, Cersei did her nightmare walk, Sam is about to encounter Oldtown and a faceless man, and except for Sam the Slayer’s WW stabby-stabby, NW’s battle with the wights at the Fist and urgent notes of ‘dead things in the water’ at Hardhome, the WWs/Others are still an Old Nan tale.

      Simple, easily resolvable stuff, right? I’m still looking forward to the major differences the ASoI&F journey will take from GoT.

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    135. GORM,

      Though it’s certainly understandable that George would have mixed feelings with how HBO/D&D have adapted his material, being as close to it as he is, this is far from feelings of “distaste”. He has some disappointments, sure, which would be strange if he didn’t (creatives never agree on everything). He has also said in the past that HBO/D&D are doing a fantastic job.

      Furthermore, just as I don’t condone the vitriol that is thrown at George for the constant delays in releasing TWoW (though fans do have the right to their disappointment and frustrations), the hate that D&D get from some fans is way out of line. I’ll be the first to admit I don’t agree with some of their decisions, and the show has definitely had a few missteps in the past few seasons, but D&D are doing an amazing job of adapting this incredibly complex and nuanced story for television. And their task in producing a TV series of this scale is far more complex than writing a book.

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    136. Hasindu,

      I am so sorry to hear this. I don’t know if this can apply to your situation, but I’ve heard a lot of stories – mostly from organizations like Make-a-Wish, which is my favorite by far – of people (albeit mostly kids) asking to see television and movies before they are released to accommodate the lack of time they have left. I know this happened a year or two with the movie “A Fault in Our Stars” for one wish child.

      So, god forbid, if the situation is looking bleak before the season airs, maybe you could reach out to some organization to try to get some pull. It really shouldn’t affect HBO with regards to leaks, and actually presents itself as a good opportunity for good press, as the story would surely be put in the media.

      Anyways, stay strong, my friend. My prayers are with you.

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    137. Hodors Bastard,

      “You read ‘Mercy’ before anything else? Wow. You should take advantage of your situation and read ASoI&F in reverse order. That’d be a trip. 🙂”

      ———
      Well, I did read a handful of iconic passages after stumbling upon fan site surveys in which everybody seemed to choose and quote the following:
      1. The “Broken Man” speech.
      2. Arya’s “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue.
      3. Arya’s “Harwin, you have to know me!” scene with BwoB.

      And of course, the “Mercy” chapter because I saw it on GRRM’s LiveJournal … and couldn’t stop reading it once I’d started.

      Other than that, I’m a “pre-books”, show-only fan.

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    138. Ten Bears:
      If I eventually read the books even though GRRM never finishes them, I’ll just assume that “A Dream of Spring” was going to be 750 pages of wall-to-wall Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies.™

      Because I really don’t care who, if anyone, gets to be King , Queen, Regent, or Prime Minister at the end, or what kind of government emerges if “the wheel” is broken.Nor am I emotionally invested in Dany’s putative baby, Cersei’s supposed pregnancy, Baby Sam’s fate; who marries whom; or whether Jon dies, Dany dies, or they both die.

      For me, I started watching the show and kept watching for one reason and one reason only: 👸🏻

      …………
      ™ Talvikorppi.
      (My apologies. Though I am aware you used that description derisively, I liked it so much that I filched it. 😉)

      Though I am personally very invested in Jon, Dany, Jamie, Tyrion, etc., Arya is the one I’m the most invested in by a country mile, and the one who I’m most looking forward to seeing in S8! Obviously. 🙂 She’s also the character I’m most interested in reading about in TWoW for a number of reasons.

      Although I fully expect her book counterpart to hit all the same major story points the show has (leaving the FM and returning to Westeros), I’m expecting it to happen quite differently in the books. It’ll be very interesting to see how & why she leaves the FM in the books, and whether they will part on good terms (unlikely) or bad (more likely), and what this means for her story going forward. In the show it’s a bit ambiguous, though it seems Arya sort of “squared things” with Jaqen by killing The Waif.

      Also, I would think that her being an incredibly powerful warg in the books will be an important element in her story, perhaps even in the Great War to come. So I wonder if instead of becoming a powerful physical fighter like she is in the show, will she rely more on her warging ability in the books? Or both? I rather feel that her accomplished fighting/ninja skills in the show are to compensate for her not being a warg like she is in the books. And that’s 100% fine with me, as it suits television better.

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    139. Enharmony1625: So I wonder if instead of becoming a powerful physical fighter like she is in the show, will she rely more on her warging ability in the books? Or both?

      Interesting balance indeed. I share your Arya amour.

      Many don’t realize that Nymeria found Cat’s body while being warged by Arya! Instead of eating and ravaging the body (like the other wolves were doing with other post-RW bodies), Nymeria brought the body to the attention of Thoros and Beric. So cool. I fully believe that GRRM intends to extend that scenario in TWoW/ADoS and somehow bring Arya, LSH and Nymeria together again (if only briefly, with possibly dire consequences).

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    140. Infinity War Imp,

      I also subscribe to this theory, which I commented about here the other day. I think the books could absolutely steal the show’s thunder. And that’s because the show only people don’t understand, or even know about, all of the left out details and characters, from the books. They would be so confused if the last 2 books came out, first, and had some big twist(s) with characters/story lines that are not in the show. The show has combined characters and storylines (Jon Snow/Young Griff, Jorah/Jon Connington, Arya/Lady Stoneheart, etc) and left out huge chunks of AFFC & ADWD. I just remember watching the TOJ scene and being so excited, but all of my show only friends were so confused. They thought Ned and Lyanna were Jon’s parents. I tried explaining R+L=J and they were like, “Who’s Reagar?”. I felt like that huge bombshell was just wasted on them. It just didn’t have any meaningful impact on them. I read about similar reactions. I doubt the show runners want the ending spoiled by events that might not even happen in the show. Then there’s also the possibility of show only people finding out the ending and not finishing the show. For instance, if Arya dies the books, and my show only husband found out, he wouldn’t finish the show. I think we need to face the fact that the show is paramount. The books are more popular than they’ve ever been, and will continue to be after the show ends. But, the book readers are NOT the priority. We’re going to read the books anyway AND watch the show. Until the last episode airs, the show only people are the only ones that matter.

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    141. Hodors Bastard,
      Even though it’s been discussed in the forums here on several occasions, I’ll encase this in spoiler tags just in case (and because you did :)).

      Yes, I think so too. At least the theory that Arya will eventually have to give “mercy” to Lady Stoneheart, which could very well cause her to give up her revenge arc and killing in general. It’s one of those theories when you first hear it, it just clicks — it makes a lot of sense. At least for me. 🙂

      I first heard of this from Firannion, and since have seen it pop up a number of times in other places. It’s given some additional weight now that George has expressed again his disappointment that LS isn’t in the show. If this is the case, it’ll be interesting to see how the show tackles this part of her arc in S8.

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    142. Enharmony1625,

      It’ll be very interesting to see how & why she [Arya] leaves the FM in the books, and whether they will part on good terms (unlikely) or bad (more likely), and what this means for her story going forward. In the show it’s a bit ambiguous, though it seems Arya sort of “squared things” with Jaqen by killing The Waif.”
      ________________
      Yeah, Arya leaving Murder School was kind of ambiguous on the show, especially with Jaqen 2.0’s announcement: “Finally, a Girl is No One.” (I was confused. She had already decided to drop out, and Jaqen 2.0 had contracted a hit on her as a result, but he was treating their final encounter as if it were a graduation ceremony.)

      With copious amounts of tinfoil, I’ve since reconciled that final exchange to mean that Arya honored the FM Code of Conduct by coming back to the HoB&W to add a face to the face rack. After all, according to the Many-Faced God mumbo jumbo, supposedly it didn’t matter who got killed and donated her face so long as a face was added to the wall.
      Otherwise, Arya would’ve just tossed the Waif’s corpse into a canal (or carved it up for pie filling) and skipped town post haste.
      In any event, I agree that it did seem as if Arya squared her accounts with the FM, and they won’t be sending collection agencies after her to pay back her student loans or return her scholarship funds.

      From the pre-released TWOW “Mercy” chapter, I understood

      Arya/Mercy’s final thoughts about missing the troupe members she’d befriended and feeling bad that the disappearance of the guy she lured to his death would cause headaches for the Sealord, to mean that after that night’s performance she’d be leaving Braavos – and the FM – for good.

      .
      Perhaps that points to TWOW a similar reckoning with the FM in the books in which they give Arya their blessing to leave without repercussions.

      As for Book!Arya’s warging abilities: For whatever reason, the showrunners decided not to give Show!Arya those powers. I have no idea why or why not. Your explanation makes the most sense: having her develop martial arts skills works better on TV. And that’s “100% fine with me” too! 👸🏻

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    143. Shay,

      “Show only” people have not read the books and would not be “confused” by TWOW being released – any more than they weren’t confused by the already-published books they never read.

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    144. Shay,

      I firmly believe that most viewers either haven’t read the books or don’t care about the deviations, so I highly doubt that the books’ will steal the show’s thunder. Even if that were the case, now it’s the show that’s stealing the books’ thunder. They revealed R+L = J, Jon’s resurrection, Shireen’s burning, the origin of Hodor’s name, Viserion becoming a wight, etc. Why would Martin agree to that?

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    145. Ten Bears,

      …I’ve since reconciled that final exchange to mean that Arya honored the FM Code of Conduct by coming back to the HoB&W to add a face to the face rack. After all, according to the Many-Faced God mumbo jumbo, supposedly it didn’t matter who got killed and donated her face so long as a face was added to the wall.

      It was a Trial by Combat, although not explicitly proclaimed as such in the HoB&W before it began. In the judgment of the Many-Faced God, Arya prevailed.

      This was all foreshadowed in the exchange between the First Sword of Braavos and his pupil, wherein he tells her there is only one god, Death, and the only thing we say to Death is, “not today.”

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    146. Young Dragon,

      Young Dragon and Ten Bears:

      I think you both are missing my point. I was trying to convey that it’s because the show only people don’t know what they’re missing that they will be confused and/or the show would be spoiled for them. As I mentioned, in my earlier comment, there was a lot of confusion over the TOJ scene. The show only people didn’t get it. So much so that some of them thought that Ned was banging his sister. So let’s say that the books came out first. Whatever happens will be all over the internet in a millisecond. What if Jon isn’t brought back? Let’s say that it’s Young Griff who hooks up with Arianne, instead of Dany, and saves Westeros instead. Can you imagine what the show only people would be thinking? They’d probably think, “WTF!! Jon’s dead? I don’t understand. Who the F are Young Griff and Arianne? I don’t get it. Well, that kind of ruined the show for me!”

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    147. Shay,

      We’re cool. Let’s agree on this: Whether TWOW and ADOS are both finished and sitting in a secret vault; or neither are anywhere near completed; we’re not going to see either one in 2018, and likely not before S8 of the show concludes in mid-2019.

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    148. Shay,

      I think you’re completely overestimating the confusion of Jon’s parentage by show only fans, but let’s say you’re right. R+L = J has been all over the internet for years, but, according to you, show only fans were still confused by it. That must mean that they don’t go looking for spoilers and speculation on the internet. They wouldn’t care about changes the show made to the books anyway. I mean, D&D gutted AFFC/ADWD, but GOT’s viewership continued to rise. And you still didn’t give a response about why Martin would allow the show to spoil his books.

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    149. Hasindu,

      I am sorry you are unwell. I am myself not that much younger than GRRM but until 18 months ago would have said my health was okay for my age but then I found I had coeliac disease (which can be managed by avoiding foods containing gluten) and my red corpuscle count had become very low and I had to have a transfusion of 3 units of blood. It can also make me achy and prone to a rash (which I don’t get if I keep off the gluten but I must have eaten something cross-contaminated last week because the rash flared up again). I also have osteoporosis (have to take a couple of tablets for the bones – though I think a brisk walk round the block can be helpful for that) so I’m much more aware of the frailty of the human condition than before. That’s not as serious as your condition of course. It’s possible GRRM may have been unwell himself of course and have kept quiet about the same. I know I seem to have less energy than I used to, though of course I do like a story to have an end. There was a Winston Graham book (not Poldark though I have read some of the Poldark novels) that I read and it teased at the end because the heroine attended somewhere after the main action of the book with her husband but there were 2 candidates to be her husband so the reader never knew whom she married. I was a bit miffed about the teaser.

      Take courage and keep your spirits up.

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    150. Hasindu,

      I’m sorry I went on about myself rather in my last post when really I meant to express some empathy. Wishing you all the best.

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    151. Mr Derp,

      A classic. I approve it. Should be bought in pack with Horton Hatches the Egg, for a slight resemblance with HBO and how they sat on the task as promised and delivered the hatched the egg.

      ^ I have not yet drunk my espresso, obvi. I would never normally say such things.

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    152. Cumsprite,

      I would never… It’s good to know you are always aware of your surroundings and are now (because of my small contribution) on the straight and narrow! :p

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    153. I wish I had any faith in that theory, Shay, and Martin was really sitting on BOTH books. I don’t know why, but I believe the man when he states on his Nab that he is aware of this theory that both books are done and it is utter crap (I’m paraphrasing here). He could have lied before so many times about so many updates and he never did. To me he sounds honest or he would have to be some kind of masochist to write such posts as End of the Year Update. Those were hard to read: of how disappointed he was on himself, how terrible and sort of ashamed he felt for blowing deadlines and taking once more advantage of the publishers with which he had business agreements in place. But to each his own.

      Anyway, I expect Winds will come out next yr. I feel hopeful. And I was terribly disappointed when I read his post on Wed felt Winds will NEVER come. But it’s a new day and I AM a Cubs fan, always have been, so obviously for me there is always a next yr.

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    154. GORM:
      Honestly, I couldn’t give less of a shit about GRRM or any of his bore-inducing companion books. And even when TWOW does come out, I won’t be buying.

      All hail HBO.

      Me neither. I don’t give a flying fuck! Never read (or intend to) the ASOIAF books. Tomes of fiction and of a thousand pages or more have never interested me. GoT is great TV and brilliant in all respects and I will certainly miss it after S8 has aired, but all things have to finish and come to their conclusion.

      So Martin can find the time and collate material and to write this new book ‘Fire and Blood’ but not finish his ASOIAF series? Come on… he’s taking the piss out of his loyal book readers? I wonder also how much of this new book is entirely his work? I wouldn’t be surprised if the obnoxious duo who run westeros.org had put a fair amount of input into it.

      As for TWoW/ADoS – Its pretty obvious that GRRM lost interest a year or two after the HBO show started. Even more so when the show surpassed the books. At first he would attend GoT cons, but doesn’t do that any more. He’s made a fortune out of the books and the TV show (and the best of luck to him), but since has lost interest and has told B&W how the story will end.

      As I see it, you guys who are waiting for the books are doing so in vain? Perhaps GRRM will finish TWoW sometime, but ADoS – never!

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    155. this is the first time some comments on a thread on WotW infuriate me. ok, the first time since A* got banned.

      what sort of people call for a “boycott of products” of an artist? me, if the artist turns out to be a fascist or misogynist or homophobe or racist dickburger. you, if the artist doesn’t keep up your supply with stories as you expected?

      do you folks have a contract with GRRM? does he owe you anything? did he force you into buying his books? did Amy Winehouse force you into buying her records? and if so, will you dig her out now and slap the dead body until your consumer’s rights are respected by her? or will an online-petition do it?

      ahhh, goddamn!!

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    156. death by chickenfire:

      what sort of people call for a “boycott of products” of an artist? me, if the artist turns out to be a fascist or misogynist or homophobe or racist dickburger. you, if the artist doesn’t keep up your supply with stories as you expected?

      do you folks have a contract with GRRM? does he owe you anything? did he force you into buying his books? did Amy Winehouse force you into buying her records? and if so, will you dig her out now and slap the dead body until your consumer’s rights are respected by her? or will an online-petition do it?

      Thank you. I feel pretty much the same way.

      In Charles Dickens’ day, readers arguably did have a contract of sorts with novelists, by subscribing to a periodical in which a new book was being serialized. But even then, they had no guarantee that the publication wouldn’t go bankrupt and cease operations, or that the author wouldn’t die halfway through the writing process.

      In fact, Dickens did die without completing ‘The Mystery of Edwin Drood.’ What he left provided the basis for a pretty amusing ‘choose-your-own-ending’ stage musical over a century later, but his contemporaries never found out the intended solution to the mystery. Plenty of people still read what there was of it, and nobody went around arguing for a boycott of Dickens’ works, or saying ‘I wouldn’t have started if I’d known there wasn’t going the be an ending.’

      Schubert’s Eighth Symphony still gets performed a lot despite the fact that only two movements were completed. We still admire armless Venus de Milo and the fragments that remain of Sappho’s poetry and the ruins of classic architecture. Good art is good art.

      Sometimes, instead of externalizing blame when our expectations are not met, it’s more productive to reexamine and readjust those expectations.

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    157. Black Raven: Perhaps GRRM will finish TWoW sometime, but ADoS – never!

      Whether TWoW is written and on ice or not completed yet, you are probably right about ASoIaF never being completed.

      Even if volumes six and seven are published, they will not be enough to contain the conclusions to the energy, threads, foreshadowing, and arcs already generated. So many hints thrown out, never to be followed up.

      All this incompleteness bears out GRRM’s contention that oral and written history is inaccurate and incomplete and in the minds of the beholders. That does not make lack of conclusion to ASoIaF any easier to bear.

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    158. Hasindu,

      I’m very sorry to hear this.. really puts things into perspective. Theres nothing I can say other than I wish your journey to be as positive and pain free as possible. 🙏🏻

        Quote  Reply

    159. death by chickenfire,

      If you’d have taken the time to read my comments properly, maybe you’d understand. If you have, and still don’t… whatever.

      I boycott GRRM because a) I think he’s unproffessional and kind of dicky to his fanbase b) because I don’t like these fake history books one bit, and feel a little bit peeved that he’s spending so much time on them when the show is outpacing him and now finishing his story, and c) because I’ve accepted he will never finish the books, and there is no point in me investing time, thought and money in a bunch of loose ends. I prefer to rip the bandade clean off rather than suffer another decade or two of waiting for something that will probably never come out. Most of all because I don’t so much respect the author any more (despite his remarkably good first three books in the series).

      Quite simply, I’m done after GoT because I don’t plan on dragging this franchise along with me to the end of time.

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    160. And for the record, “boycott” is just a word I used for what is more accurately defined as an aggressive loss of interest. I could not care less about TWOW, in all honesty, and this is coming from someone who (pre-season 6) was all about it. I even liked book Dorne.

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    161. I think Winds will be a complete bloodbath and many POV characters will die which will in turn make Dream an easier work to finish. And all of those deaths in Winds will stray so far from GoT’s that it will divide the fan base which is not the finish that HBO wants for their biggest most expensive show ever.

      George had the chance to get Winds out before GoT’s overtook him but didn’t make it. Now he’ll (probably reluctantly) play the good soldier and let the show finish before he releases Winds next fall. Plus it gives him more time to fine tune it and ensure that the differences between it and the show will be substantial enough to ensure it’s a must read.

      Like, I fully expect either Jamie or Brienne to die in Winds. Good chance that Cersei will die as well. Those deaths alone will make the endgame of the books vastly different from the show because the show has elevated both Cersei & Jamie to prime positions while I don’t think either are endgame players in the books.

      We just saw Star Wars The Last Jedi take a critical beating because the die hard fan base were unhappy. I could easily see the same thing happening with GoT’s because it has a very intense book reader fan base who would and probably could hurt Thrones’ going out on an all time high if they felt D&D changed too much of the story and created their own subpar fanfic…

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    162. Enharmony1625,

      Ultimately what I want from the ending is just what you alluded to — a good story, and resolutions for the main characters that make sense given the journey they’ve been on.

      Yes – in other words, satisfying. That is after all what good storytelling is. Just so sad because Martin is a great storyteller, but he got so caught up in it that he couldn’t get it to make sense anymore. I do wonder what would have happened if an editor early on forced him to make some changes, to keep it all from getting so bloated, that he could have made this work. But everyone seemed too afraid to do so. Ultimately, Martin took a look at the mess he made and rather than try to fix it, tossed it aside.

      I do agree that the show more than likely will end as Martin envisioned it 8 years ago, So it makes me wonder, would the books have been written if there had been no show? Did he just say to hell with it let the show tell the story and let me off the hook?

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    163. I don’t understand how people even now can support this man when it’s 2018..when the man himself have apologised for the same and that happened 2 years ago.

      I have to say I feel sorry for those who is holding on to the hope that he has already finished the last two books and waiting to release it after the show ends….you only have to wait for one more year to realise that what you were hoping will never come to fruition.

      GRRm may be a great author but for me he is not very professional.

      Some of the things that we need to remember about the books are:
      That a vast amount of chapters was already finished that didn’t make it into ADWD.
      And it’s been a four years since he has announced that he will stop writing for the show and other things in order to focus on TWOW..add another 4 years before that.

      8 years for a book where quarter of the book has been already written and all the knots removed and to reach the ending you know for 20 years .

      It’s not only that he has not finished that make me disappointed but that fact that he tries to mislead his fans and trying to hold them by saying ” that I have thought of some new twist which the show can’t do because they went different” ..it’s very sad.

      In fact I fear we will never get even TWOW because of this …Let’s say if he can’t get to the story and ending that he know for 20 years …just think how long it will take for him to come up with new scenarios where he tries to outdo the show and make it as much different from the show so people will buy it.

      Now coming to this book..I just ask myself what’s the point of knowing what happened in SummerHall( if that’s even mentioned in this books) when you will never know what will happen when dany learns of it and what will be the fate of citadel after that who tried to bring down the Targs.

      And one final thing I wanted to say his people are not his bitch and he has not made any promises about future books and that we can enjoy only the books that we have paid for…if that’s the case then he should stop leaving all his characters fate in a cliffhanger whose fates will only be known in the next books.

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    164. Roast,

      He’s not my bitch and Im done being his’

      Heh, I do wonder, now that its been decades since Neil Gaiman first wrote that ‘GRRM is not your bitch’ article, if he feels differently about it now. ,

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    165. Chilli,

      I dunno – Yes I hoped they would be finished, expected them to. But I’ll never forget the summer I read the first three books. I literally had discovered a new world. Even liked the next two, despite problems. while Im disappointed, I don’t regret having read the ones published.

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    166. Firannion,

      Just try GGK. Exquisitely written historical fantasy. Begin with ‘Tigana.’ You won’t be sorry.

      The last few were disappointing, but I so agree with you; incredible writer.

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    167. Firannion,

      The forsythia bush next to my front porch is very very yellow just now, and for the moment, I’m going to let that be enough.

      I am your age, and have the same feelings, and oh this is just lovely

      BTW I do realize I am two days late to this post – been busy striking in Arizona to keep up. Not sure anyone will read any of this but it makes me feel good to add my two cents regardless of the silence afterwards.

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    168. ash,

      I read what you wrote. 😇
      By the way: What do you mean, “striking in Arizona”? Forgive me if I’m not up on current events.

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    169. I have read the books but how exactly has the show combined Jon Snow and fAegon stories? It seems extremely obvious to me that fAegon will die in Winds and is another Quentin arc.

      They have certainly combined Jorah and Jon Connigton though and I have no idea why.

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    170. Ten Bears,

      Arizona educators have been walking out since Thursday (Google images of the 50000+ teachers walking to the capitol) Almost 5 billion dollars have been cut from education since 2008, making our state one of the lowest in terms of student expendeture, teacher salaries (causing major teacher shortage and teachers needing 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet) and general education funds. Along with those cuts are major cuts in taxes to corporations, leaving little left in the till. Weve been out since Thurs and since the gov offered a plan with no details how its being funded, the legislature decided to go home over the weekend, we are marching again tomorrow. Been a bit busy. Decided to take a break and come over here. Much calmer now 🙂

      Aren’t you glad you asked ? 🙂

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    171. Jon Snowed,

      “They have certainly combined Jorah and Jon Connigton though and I have no idea why.”
      —————–
      As a “pre-books”, show-only fan, I am also perplexed:

      It’s my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) that in the books “Jon Connington” – not Jorah Mormont – contracted greyscale.

      I thought that when the show had Jorah get greyscale, there would be some significant plot purpose, e.g., bringing a highly infectious disease to the Seven Kingdoms and causing an epidemic at the worst possible time, as if humanity didn’t have enough on its plate with looming starvation and an imminent White Walkers invasion.

      The show spent significant time making such a big deal about this contagious disease (that wonderful speech by Stannis to Shireen about finding a cure for Baby Shireen’s greyscale instead of sending her to live out a short life with the Stone Men, “because you are the Princess Shireen of House Baratheon; and you are my daughter” 😥; Volantis street priestess sermon and Tyrion’s comment about the greyscale-afflicted; creepy encounter with Stone Men during Jorah & Tyrion boat ride past Old Valyria; Citadel Maester Ebrose’s medical synopsis; Gilly’s story about two Craster daughter-wives with greyscale, etc.).

      I had activated my wireless tinfoil hat and cranked it up to “11”, and speculated that perhaps greyscale originated from a bio-warfare experiment gone awry; or it might somehow insulate soldiers against dragonfire or protect them from wightening; or it would create a crazy clusterf*ck of horror at the endgame with killer ice zombies pouring in from the north and psycho Stone Men multiplying in the south closing in on our still-human heroes (and villains) in the middle. I thought to myself, there had to be a reason for all of the greyscale-related references and exposition throughout S1 – S6. Even if the Jon Connington character was extraneous to the story, there had to be some necessity for preserving his greyscale subplot by transferring it to Jorah.

      But it looks like all that the greyscale story line amounted to was:

      Jorah got sick.
      Jorah got better.
      “Khaleesi I’m back!”
      The End.

      Unless this was all a setup for a Grey’s Anatomy-type spinoff about Samwell Tarly, M.D., board certified dermatologist and plastic surgeon.

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    172. Aegon the Icedragon,

      GOT’s die hard fan base is already unhappy with the show, but they haven’t been able to hurt the show, not even a little. Most viewers either haven’t read the books or don’t care about deviations. As for your speculation that A Dream for Spring will take less time to write, people said the same thing about Winds, even Martin himself, yet it’s taking him longer. And D&D are writing an adaptation, not fan fiction.

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    173. Young Dragon,

      It is an adaptation but the diehard book readers will call it D&D’s fan fiction if it’s proven to stray too far from the source material. With no Winds or Dream, there is no source material…

      And The Last Jedi still made money but it’s taken a big hit in the Star Wars fandom. And I believe if the entire hardcore book reading population got mobilized in anger, they could affect the show. Be it by leaks or spoiling or other means.

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    174. ash,

      Yes. I am glad I asked. I was aware of teacher walkouts in other states, but did not know about Arizona. (These days, the “news” is so surreal it’s almost as if I feel like I’ve been transported to an alternate reality. After a while, it gets frustrating to even watch.)

      I hope you prevail. And as cynical as I am, I hope we’re seeing the start of a new era of enlightenment in which people have finally had enough of the mounting inequities and daily sh*tshows they’re witnessing.

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    175. Aegon the Icedragon:
      Young Dragon,

      “…And I believe if the entire hardcore book reading population got mobilized in anger, they could affect the show. Be it by leaks or spoiling or other means.”

      __________
      Why would anyone want to do that? It’s not the showrunners’ fault. They got into this with the expectation. that GRRM would have already completed the source material years ago.

      Why would the “hardcore bookreading population” get mobilized in anger and ruin the show for viewers “by leaks or spoiling or other means”?

      Though I haven’t read the books, from what I know GRRM would never construct some of the storylines we’ve seen on the show, e.g., the ridiculous wight hunt expedition, Sansa concealing KotV from Jon, and PsychoArya vs. GullibleSansa + Dumbed-DownLittleFinger in S7.

      Still, the showrunners have to write scripts and produce each season’s episodes on time and within budget. If viewers had to wait for the source material to be published befote it’s adapted for TV, HBO would’ve had to put its flagship show on indefinite hiatus after S4 or S5. And we’d still be waiting for S6.

      It’s a shame there are no longer any books to adapt. Are the showrunners or TV vewers to blame?

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    176. Enharmony1625,

      We now take a break from GRRM-bashing to talk about Maisie Williams and Arya:

      On April 15, 2018, Maisie Williams turned 21. She posted on Instagram an adorable picture of herself as a little blonde-haired toddler on a beach blanket with the caption:

      “21 & still waiting on that growth spurt.”

      (Let me see if I can post the link… I don’t know if this will work…)

      http://https://www.instagram.com/maisie_williams/?hl=en

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    177. Ten Bears,
      Oh my, that toddler picture of her is adorable! And the pic of that actress as a future Arya is uncanny.

      If they ever did do an Arya spinoff though, it would likely be enough years into the future that Maisie could do it if she wanted to, and I honestly wouldn’t want anyone else to step into those shoes but her. Especially after 8 years, I just can’t see anyone else in that role. Though I can certainly understand that Maisie would want to distance herself from Arya as well after all these years and try new things.

      Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,
      – We now return you to your regularly scheduled anti-GRRM programming. –

      Haha. And the D&D hate..

      Like I said before, everyone is entitled to their feelings and emotions on the matter (it’s only human after all). It’s perfectly natural to be disappointed in the delay of TWoW, in choices made by D&D, book vs. show, etc., but at the end of the day, I really think some appreciation should be shown towards GRRM, D&D, and all the rest who work their asses off to give us this story, characters, and world we love.

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    178. Dragonbringer,

      Agree completely. Your comment about cliffhangers is the counter to the claim that GRRM is not our bitch. He builds expectations but fails to deliver.

      Am willing to wait a year or two to see if my faint hope that Winds and Dream are available for publication. After that, if no books are forthcoming, none will be.

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    179. Aegon the Icedragon,

      They can call it whatever they want, but they’d be wrong. As I said, the die hard book fans are already unhappy with the show, but they still haven’t been able to hurt the viewership because they make up such a small percentage. Everyone else either hasn’t read the books or doesn’t care about deviations. The die hard fans can’t really do anything about it because there hasn’t been any leakage and the show is way past the books.

      Star Wars is way more popular than GOT. There’s not even a comparison between the two. The problem with The Last Jedi is that someone new was brought in and implemented his own style and opinions onto the series, which didn’t go over well with Star Wars fans. The difference with GOT is that the same guys have helmed the series since the beginning. People have obviously responded well to their vision, as their viewership grows significantly every year.

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    180. Ten Bears: speculated that perhaps greyscale originated from a bio-warfare experiment gone awry

      My tinfoil about greyscale is that greyscale is the agent Valyrians used to flow stone into roads and buildings and bestone living beings. Greyscale was used to build Dragonstone and Shireen caught it because she was a vulnerable baby and some greyscale was still around. GRRM made a big deal about the gargoyles in the crenels, which I think were hardened from living beings.

      I agree that originally greyscale had a purpose in the story, which now would appear only in books if any books will be published.

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    181. Enharmony1625,

      The actress is Cote de Pablo, who played Ziva David on “NCIS.” I stumbled upon that photograph and thought her resemblance to Maisie as Arya was uncanny.

      But like you, I’d never want to see another actres take over the role in a sequel. I was just thinking if the show ever wanted to do a five second flash-forward like the brief flashbacks to young Cersei-Maggy and young Ned at ToJ, or flashback-and-forward between pre-Hodor Wyllis and Hodor, Cote de Pablo could do a cameo as future Arya.

      Then again, the Many-Faced Goddess herself could probably be made to look 15-20 years older with the right makeup and hair styling.

      (And I have yet to give up completely on my tinfoil theory that Arya = Lyanna 2.0 will be the “Younger More Beautiful Queen”, in part because I’ve convinced myself Aisling Francisco was cast as Lyanna Stark because of her more than passing resemblance to Maisie Williams. With that same dress and hairstyle that Aisling Franciosi had on in “The Dragon and the Wolf” Rhaegar-Lyanna wedding scene flashback, Maisie could look just like her.)

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    182. Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,
      But like you, I’d never want to see another actres take over the role in a sequel. I was just thinking if the show ever wanted to do a five second flash-forward like the brief flashbacks to young Cersei-Maggy and young Ned at ToJ, or flashback-and-forward between pre-Hodor Wyllis and Hodor, Cote de Pablo could do a cameo as future Arya.

      Oh, you were referring to a possible flash-forward as part of the ending. Gotcha! 🙂 I wonder if the ending will jump forward in time, and if so, by how much.. That’s a fairly risky thing to do, because if they try to age up the actors and it doesn’t look convincing, it would take us right out of the scene(s). But if they cast other actors to play the older versions, we as an audience don’t have as strong of a connection to them as those characters, so I think that would lessen the emotional weight of the scene(s). Hopefully if there is a time jump it will be on the order of a few years or so.

      Ten Bears:
      Enharmony1625,
      (… Aisling Francisco was cast as Lyanna Stark because of her more than passing resemblance to Maisie Williams.)

      I think that’s almost certainly the case.

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    183. Marlana,

      I agree that originally greyscale had a purpose in the story, which now would appear only in books if any books will be published.”
      ___________

      So you think the show deployed “the D&D Dornish Solution” and pulled the plug on whatever subplot they had originally mapped out for greyscale?

      Now you’ve got me wondering if George the Gardener planted the seeds of greyscale without knowing exactly how it would sprout; the show followed suit; but then without a resolution in sight, the show pulled the plug on the “greyscale” sidestory and simply had Sam cure Jorah in a single episode by reading “Debridement for Dummies” from the Citadel Library.

      It seemed like there was a lot of foreboding and mystery surrounding greyscale – and then Patient X suddenly found a miracle cure and that was that.

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    184. Ten Bears,

      Yes, the seeds for greyscale are numerous and varied, just waiting for a purpose. I think of greyscale as having potential similar to that of obsidian, which could relate the volcanoes and research of Valyria to the killing of Others. There is room for these concepts to participate in the eventual solution to Westeros’ problems, or to just fizzle out without a trace.

      I would like to see a science fiction explanation for greyscale and obsidian.

        Quote  Reply

    185. Ten Bears,

      I so agree about the news – I’ve been a ‘newsie’ since I was a little kid sitting next to dad watching Cronkite. Keeping up with news is in my blood, but now its making me go insane…..Anyway, thanks for the support; its been interesting to see how quickly the grass roots group got going – took about 6 weeks from the start to the vote to walk out. Our union is pretty weak, but they have joined in. Its one of those issues that has been boiling just under the surfce for a decade and just needed a spark to set it off. What is difficult is that the gov makes it look like he’s giving us what we want, but we’ve been down that road before (Think Lucy as gov, football as funds, and Charlie Brown as teachers…..) So it makes us look greedy and selfish – when all we are trying to do is teach our kids, and make enough to survive.

      Anyway going to hang out here for a bit and enjoy fantasy – reality is too crazy!

        Quote  Reply

    186. Volume 1 of a planned two volume history? Oh, George, you scamp, you’ve sung this song before. Ima wait until the whole thing is complete before plunking down my cash.

        Quote  Reply

    187. Enharmony1625,

      I really think some appreciation should be shown towards GRRM, D&D, and all the rest who work their asses off to give us this story, characters, and world we love.

      Yes. I read the books first, loved them despite the lack of a good editor., excited about the show and still love it despite odd choices from D&D. Never got the whole fight between the supposedly two audiences. While I am very disappointed in Martin’s decision, ultimately there is a reason this story has pulled so many of us in, and its because of them.

        Quote  Reply

    188. Ten Bears,

      Oh I love that! And I get the growth spurt comment, and can tell you not only does it not come, but she can look forward to losing a bit of it when she gets older! Anyway, a very happy birthday to one of my favorite actors!

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    189. Ten Bears,

      I’m not saying that angry book fans would be right in their hatred. I just remember the flame wars that sparked up a couple years ago. And I actually think the show overtaking GRRM was the best thing for the show because the flame wars have dissipated greatly and I believe that’s because there’s no more source material for the die hards to compare & contrast. It’s mostly irrelevant now because the show will finish before the next book comes out anyway, I was only explaining why I think Winds will be released after the show ends & after Fire & Blood is released.

        Quote  Reply

    190. Young Dragon,

      I think the hatred from the die hard book readers has dissipated because they no longer have source material to compare & contrast and that’s a good thing. And I think the show has continued to grow (just like HBO would have wanted) partly because they have passed up the novels and the show is it’s own entity now. D&D are truly giving us their own adaptation now.

      The show will finish before the next book is released and I think that has been a beneficial factor for the show. It will end without the controversy of people comparing it to the source material. You feel differently and that’s fine. We both have our opinions. I’m a fan of both. So I hope we get a great show ending and a Winds book that goes in a much different direction than D&D had to take for the show. That would be a win-win situation.

        Quote  Reply

    191. Marlana,

      Yes, after this revelation I’m there with you. I won’t be buying Fire and Blood or anything else he writes until I’ve read the last word in the final book of ASoIaF. It’s silly at this point.

      At the VERY least, he could give exact counts of pages and words he’s completed. It couldn’t cause more backlash than he’s already getting, which is what I’ve read keeps him from saying things in the first place. Right…?

        Quote  Reply

    192. Ten Bears: I’ve been transported to an alternate reality. After a while, it gets frustrating to even watch.)

      Ye gods, TB, please don’t get so frustrated you stop watching completely. Don’t you realize that’s the goal? We’ve been pounded to the wall with the idea of “fake news, then assaulted with massive confusion and circus events, until the idea of fake news sounds like a reasonable way out of having to deal with all this nonsense. When thoughtful, articulate people like you stop trying to make sense of the stuff, the despots have won.

      Kudos to the teachers everywhere. Hope it works out for you, ash. I’m on the side of excellently-funded education.

      Now, back to the regularly scheduled angst regarding the books.

        Quote  Reply

    193. I always try to be respectful of other posters opinions however I’m genuinely not sure if you are trolling or not.

      The only place I’ve seen GOT getting abuse is from a few posters on Westeros.org however I doubt that segment of the community is more than fifty or so people and to be honest their constant over the top criticism was the reason I no longer visit that site.

      As for your other comments, you forget that D&D know the endings of all major characters so the chances of Cersei dying in Winds are incredibly low. Whilst the showrunners have merged a few minor arcs they’ve consistently said they are hitting the major beats and it seems clear that Cersei will be there into ADOS to me. Likewise Jamie will make it to the end. Brienne I think could be possible but I’m sure GRRM introduced her for a reason and D&D know what that is.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Yep in the books Jon Connington (who is a late point of view character introduced in the fifth book) contracts grey scale rather than Jorah. Given that he is a point of view I feel pretty much everyone expects it to lead to a major event although that said it’s possible he ends up in Old Town and meets Sam like in the show. Whilst I think that’s possible given Sam is already a POV I would hope there is more to it than that.

      The one caveat I would add is another point of view is added AFFC/ADWD and dies without his story going anywhere so it may still play out similar to the show they just had Jorah do it rather than Connington.

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    195. Genuine question, what seriously makes you feel that Winds will go in a different direction to S6? All the plot points have been set up, Stannis losing, Jon ressurection through Mel, Jon King in the North, Cersei wiping out the Sparrows this is all coming in my opinion and straight from GRRM. Now I’m sure there will be minor differences, I expect Sansa to come North but not like in the show as an example.

        Quote  Reply

    196. Ten Bears,

      Strangely, going back a few years I had thought of Cote de Pablo as a possible Arianne (for show only people I think I can say Arianne was a character who was cut from the books without spoiling the show – or the books if they decide to read them eventually). I hadn’t noticed a likeness to Maisie previously though there is a similarity between the two actresses* in that photograph. I think it will be one of the Stark sisters that casts Cersei down but can’t decide which one. Where Melisandre and Arya met in season 3 Melisandre included “green eyes” among the eyes Arya would close forever – and Cersei has green eyes (so I read does Lena Heady although she isn’t blonde in real life). And the show did keep the Valonqar from the prophecy Maggy the Frog gave to young Cersei.

      For the people going on strike I’m sorry to hear that teaching has become a thankless task – it is a useful job they do after all.

      *I’m too old to start using ‘actor’ for both male and female in that job.

        Quote  Reply

    197. Aegon the Icedragon,

      The hate’s still there, it’s only changed from “That never happened in the books”
      to “That never will happen in the books.” I may be wrong, but from your post, it sounds like you lost sight of our original argument. The argument isn’t will the show and books be different, only time will tell. The argument was whether the show was paying Martin to delay the books, which I will never believe in until I read a statement from Martin or HBO stating such. I don’t think Martin is that disrespectful and that big of a sell out. Besides, his previous writing habits speak for themselves. It took him 5 years for Feast and 6 years for Dance, before the show was even an issue. His writing is simply a lot slower, that is the logical explanation for the delay.

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    198. talvikorppi:
      Ten Bears,

      That’s why I always turn off all auto-corrects, predictive texts and the like. I want to make my own mistakes. Seven hells, I even drive a good old stick-shift car with none of the new-fangled backing cameras or parking automats etc. I want to look over my shoulder and swing out and in, I know how to parallel park myself, thank you very much. Luddite, me. 😀

      Is that you Mance? 😉

      Cumsprite,
      Whoa Spritey, long time no see! and Rygar too. I thought this might bring you two out to play. I’ve been skim reading the comments and thought you said at the very least GRRM owes us a goldfish, which is not an argument I’ve heard before 😀

        Quote  Reply

    199. Looper:
      At the VERY least, he could give exact counts of pages and words he’s completed. It couldn’t cause more backlash than he’s already getting, which is what I’ve read keeps him from saying things in the first place. Right…?

      I commented a while ago in another post that Martin should just set up a TWOW website, and publish online the chapters he’s completed (and maybe update with new stuff if he ever gets around to it). That way, the ASOIF/GoT book fans who’ve been there since the beginning can get something instead of this drought and being strung along like this.

        Quote  Reply

    200. ash,

      Monday, 12:37 EDT: I’m watching live coverage of Day 3 of the Arizona teachers’ protests on TV. I’m picturing you there. In my juvenile mind, I am also imagining a cowardly legislator with a cow pie splattered on his face a la Joffrey.

        Quote  Reply

    201. Thronetender,

      To be clear, if I wanted to watch non-stop coverage of Krusty the Clown flailing his arms around and spouting nonsense, I’d binge-watch The Simpsons.

      These days, I get more accurate news reporting by reading Louise Mensch’s twitter posts and articles. It’s become a pattern: She reports something that seems unbelievable; the “mainstream media” says she’s a whacko who’s off her meds or on drugs; and then a few months later it turns out to be true and the media breathlessly reports “exclusive” “breaking news” that she’d already reported months earlier.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Dame of Mercia,

      “… I think it will be one of the Stark sisters that casts Cersei down but can’t decide which one. Where Melisandre and Arya met in season 3 Melisandre included “green eyes” among the eyes Arya would close forever – and Cersei has green eyes (so I read does Lena Heady although she isn’t blonde in real life). And the show did keep the Valonqar from the prophecy Maggy the Frog gave to young Cersei.”
      _________________

      I’m convinced the entire YMBQ + Valonqar prophecy will be fulfilled on the show even though the episode (S5e1 cold open?) with Young Cersei visiting Maggy didn’t include the Valonqar portion.

      In that regard, when I rewatch episodes I’m on the lookout for [show-only] clues and foreshadowings pointing to the identity of “the little brother” who will strangle Cersei.

      A while back I had posted my tinfoil “odds”, handicapping the likelihood several potential candidates will turn out to be the Valonqar. I think it’s time for an update, because there was a scene in S7 that I had dismissed as a “throwaway” filler that ultimately led nowhere – but may have been a setup for the fulfillment of the prophecy.

      Lemme think about that a bit more before I post something foolish and redesignate a once-longshot as the new frontrunnner.

        Quote  Reply

    203. Lulus Mum,

      I haven’t seen you here for a while either, oh, ma of Lulu. Did you say Lulu was a cat? My kitty has earned her keep this aft by catching one of Pixie’s and Dixie’s relations while I was out. I have put some bait down (where she can’t get it). I’ll have to have a think because I don’t want to harm my cat. Admittedly I have avoided any of the threads which might be “spoilery” so if you have posted on such threads I would, of course, have missed you.

      Ten Bears,

      Well, the tinfoil’s just a bit of fun (to me at least) really, Ten Bears. The mainstream media (admittedly I’m in the UK and not the USA) may give us an edited version of the truth but some of the things on YouTube are downright nutty. It was watching GoT reaction videos on YouTube when I was unwell that brought up one of those nutty ‘transvestigation’ videos (where they think any mildly famous public figure has been secretly transgendered – that nobody can succeed in this world unless they are transgender). To my shame I did watch some of the nutty videos at first, though as I say I was unwell at the time. I’m sure that the Joffrey, Jon Snow and Khaleesi actors were born the gender as which they present on GoT though – yes there was somebody saying Emilia Clark was secretly a dude! I’m just mentioning that as an example that non mainstream channels can be as nutty as mainstream ones.

      When you mentioned “cow pie” it made me think of a (British) kids’ comic book character of years gone by, Desperate Dan. Desperate Dan was a cowboy and his favourite food was “cow pie” (in this case a pie made of beef, not what was thrown at Joffrey in season 2 of GoT). The wild west inhabited by Desperate Dan was a quirky sort of wild west – it had British post boxes for example.

        Quote  Reply

    204. Thronetender: Ye gods, TB, please don’t get so frustrated you stop watching completely. Don’t you realize that’s the goal? We’ve been pounded to the wall with the idea of“fake news, then assaulted with massive confusion and circus events, until the idea of fake news sounds like a reasonable way out of having to deal with all this nonsense. When thoughtful, articulate people like you stop trying to make sense of the stuff, the despots have won.

      Kudos to the teachers everywhere. Hope it works out for you, ash. I’m on the side of excellently-funded education.

      Now, back to the regularly scheduled angst regarding the books.

      This is indeed what keeps me connected. I can’t not watch (tho nowadays its more reading – hate watching news anymore, esp local, but national is not much better), i have to know what is going on so I know what action to take. I do know this is just what they want for us to give up. And its hard not to. Now and again i just have to walk away from it all – but the next day Im back to it, needing to know and needing to be involved.

      And thanks for the support. We are fighting for the kids, regardless of what you hear.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Ten Bears,

      hee actually my marching days are long behind me. Been spending time writing letters and making phone calls, and volunteering at the rec centers set up for kids with no place to go. Keeps me active, while at the same time keeps me from breaking any more bones 🙂 But most of my younger stronger colleagues are in that mass of red, to be sure!

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    206. The only place I go for news is PBS. It’s by far the most objective tv station I have access to, and it’s not even close. All of the other channels just reinforce what you want to hear and give you one side of every story.

      At this point I’m only interested in voting for people who extend olive branches rather than build walls. That goes for both sides of the political spectrum. The constant back and forth name-calling and bickering will never stop unless we put people in power who are interested in working with others who have different viewpoints rather than going the “my way or the highway” route.

        Quote  Reply

    207. Ten Bears: Why would the “hardcore bookreading population” get mobilized in anger and ruin the show for viewers “by leaks or spoiling or other means”?

      Ah yes, we people-who-prefer-the-book-versions, such evil bogeypersons we are, always wanting to ruin other people’s fun! We won’t stop leaking and spoiling until we achieve world domination!

      Shaking my head at this bizarre thinking…

        Quote  Reply

    208. Ten Bears: I’d never want to see another actres take over the role in a sequel. I was just thinking if the show ever wanted to do a five second flash-forward… future Arya.

      I think I’ve made it clear where I stand on this controversy. There is only one possible compelling rationale to have a future Arya in the “afterword”: Cacao grows in the New World, across the Sunset Sea. Someone must bring such an important discovery back to Westeros. The Bittersweet Chocolate Ending That Was Promised.

        Quote  Reply

    209. Ten Bears: The actress is Cote de Pablo, who played Ziva David on “NCIS.” I stumbled upon that photograph and thought her resemblance to Maisie as Arya was uncanny.

      Thank you for providing the name. I knew I’d seen her face before but couldn’t pull it. She does have the look to do such a thing, although she is about half a foot taller than Maisie. Like you mentioned however, if they wanted to show an older Arya I’d rather see makeup used than a completely different actress.

        Quote  Reply

    210. Firannion: I think I’ve made it clear where I stand on this controversy. There is only one possible compelling rationale to have a future Arya in the “afterword”: Cacao grows in the New World, across the Sunset Sea. Someone must bring such an important discovery back to Westeros. The Bittersweet Chocolate Ending That Was Promised.

      —————

      Arya: “Oh! This is really good! What is it?”
      Hot Pie: “Chocolate layer cake with fudge icing.”
      Arya. “How did you make it? Show me how. I want to be able to do it too.”
      Hot Pie: “If you would learn, you must get cacao for me.”
      Arya. “Where?”
      Hot Pie: Far and away across the Sunset Sea in the New World, a place called Ecuador.
      Arya: “Sounds great! When do we leave?”
      Hot Pie: “We”? Is it “we” already?”

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    211. Rygar,

      Just updated myself on the comments and this was the only one that interested me. I swear, Rygar, you must be watching a completely different show. To all, don’t head his warning! This season of Westworld is even better than the first, so far.

      But also, Barry looks lit and I’m gonna get to that next. Fucking love Bill Hader.

        Quote  Reply

    212. Martin enjoys playing Ramsey Bolton when it comes to WoW.

      His greatest joy is to deny expectations. He delights in giving that pain.

      I strongly suspect that if he started feeling ignored that he would finish writing that book in a week.

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    213. Jaehaerys,

      Well it’d be a dull old world if we all thought the same, Jaehaerys. I’ve not made any secret of the fact that Penny Dreadful wasn’t for me and I tuned out after the seance. Admittedly I don’t like things about the occult but some folk liked the show, even the seance. I know Rygar can be a troll-de-roll but if West World is not to his/her (sorry Rygar I’ve never worked that out) liking that’s fair enough. I haven’t seen the show so can’t judge. I know it’s something to do with robots.

      Firannion,

      There are some people who whinge and whine on Westerns.org though Firannion and I don’t visit that site often now. I’m not saying you are a complainer and as I’ve said before I don’t object to a person’s instinctive feelings (to do so would be silly) if that person prefers the way the novels tell the story. In some ways I like the books and in some ways I like the show and can also see faults in both. It’s when people accuse folk who like the show of being feeble-minded that I get annoyed (and no, I know you have not done that). What I think about GRRM (possibly) leaving the books unfinished is of little importance – he’s not going to take any notice of me. I’m thinking of giving The Witcher books a whirl – well the first one at least and then if I like volume one I can go on to the other ones.

        Quote  Reply

    214. Dame of Mercia,
      Well hello Your Dameness *waves*. I have been mainly lurking lately as I’m not very hopeful for the final series. The part of the story I really like, normal* people fighting each other, is largely finished and it’s now mostly about the fantasy elements, which I just can’t work up any enthusiasm for. Once we start to hear more about the non-magical, dragons, zombies etc type stuff I shall be all over the comments like a rash!

      * relatively speaking, especially in Lannister/Targ circles 😉

      Yus Lulu was a puddytat, although sadly one of S5’s off screen deaths; I am now Mum to Bert and Ernie 🐽 🐽 (they are cats but the pig’s nose emoji tickled me so I stuck that in instead).

      Cumsprite,
      I knew you looked familiar. It’s the crown that gives it away! 😀

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    215. Dame of Mercia,

      …What I think about GRRM (possibly) leaving the books unfinished is of little importance – he’s not going to take any notice of me. I’m thinking of giving The Witcher books a whirl – well the first one at least and then if I like volume one I can go on to the other ones.”
      ________________________

      From reading all of the varying viewpoints about GRRM’s indolence, or his inability to crank out the remaining books for whatever reason, it sounds to me like the most substantial grievance is that he left off the last book with lots of cliffhangers, leaving readers to wait for the next book for the payoffs. The interminable wait has to be frustrating.

      (Though I never watched “Dallas”, I understand that a season-ending cliffhanger had much of the country wondering “Who Shot J.R.?”. That was apparently answered a few months later in the next season’s first episode. I can imagine that fans would’ve been ticked off if that new season of “Dallas” had been delayed indefinitely – and then years passed with no resolution of the cliffhanger.)

      My takeaway from all this is that if I am going to read a book series, (a) the entire series should be completed before I start, or (b) each book’s story should be self-contained, so if a planned sequel never materializes I won’t feel the author f*cked with me.

      One of my earliest reading experiences was the sci-fi/fantasy Martian Series by Edgar Rice Burroughs. I was at the book store to buy some (more) Asimov, Heinlein and Bradbury books when I saw a whole row of paperbacks of the 11 Martian series books by Burroughs, each with amazing cover art by Frank Frazetta. So I picked up the first one, “A Princess of Mars.” It was “pulp”, but enjoyable summer vacation reading – and the best part was that it had an ending. The same thing with book #2, and all of the rest of them. I didn’t need to buy the next book to find out what happened in the one before.

      J think the moral of the story for an author is that if you’re going to tease the reader with cliffhangers to drum up anticipation (and advance sales) for your next book, you’d better be able to deliver it. On time. Otherwise, structure your book so it can stand on its own, even if it leaves the door open for future adventures in the fictional world you created.

      I had a crass description of what indefinitely delayed resolution does to a frustrated reader, but I think I’ll stop here….

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    216. Lulus Mum:
      Dame of Mercia,

      *going round and round*dizzy*unpleasant* inept at doing proper quoting on anything.

      I think we readers of the books, even watchers on the wa… of the show are supposed to at least wonder about magic, and whether it’s good or bad. Whatever “good” or “bad” are.

      Likewise, we’re supposed to question everything, including Stark revenge. Jon doesn’t seem to care much about it because the White Walkers and the future of humanity are more important to him.

      Childish grudges and revenge fantasies have had their day, and I hope Jon has a word with his little sister. Makes her see, snaps her out of her bloody revenge black-and-white arc, appreciates her for her skills but still wants to protect her (what brother wouldn’t?) because he knows, however badassy she thinks she is, she’s no match to even semi-serious masses of men-at-arms, knights, let alone the army of the dead on the battlefield. She’s a sly assassin, let her work behind the lines and do what she does best, using her talents, doing what she was trained to do. Spy and assassinate. Not very honourable by poor dead Ned’s standards, or Ser Barristan Selmy’s etc. but times have changed. We need dishonourable people who do honourable work.

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    217. Dame of Mercia:

      – with someone I knew and mentioned that an acquaintance who had grown up in England but of Polish parentage said that Polish had more cases (as in the case of declension, though I’m sure you know that) than Latin and another person chimed in that Finnish had more cases than Polish!

      Yeah, we have like a dozen or more cases (some are beginning to be obsolete). Where English uses prepositions (in, at, on, from etc.) to express spatial and grammatical relations, my language uses cases, mostly endings, though often the basic word form also changes.

      Oh, and our verbs have 4 or 5 infinitives, four tenses and 4 or 5 “moods”. Finnish isn’t difficult (5.6 million people speak it fluently), but it is very different from indo-european languages.

      It’s a blessing for a linguist. Not being a native of an Indo-European language. It’s easier to get your head around non-indoeuropean linguistic phenomena like ergativity.

      That said, beside my non- indoeuropean mother tongue, I only know IE languages. English, Swedish, some Norwegian, some Danish. German. Smatterings of French and Spanish, a bit of Portuguese. Even some Irish and Scottish Gaelic. All indoeuropean. The only non-IE language I know and understand some is Estonian. It’s like weird southwestern Finnish with lots of German words but ultimately pretty much same grammar. I understand it as well as I understand Norwegian or Danish.

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    218. talvikorppi,

      “Childish grudges and revenge fantasies have had their day, and I hope Jon has a word with his little sister. Makes her see, snaps her out of her bloody revenge black-and-white arc, appreciates her for her skills but still wants to protect her (what brother wouldn’t?) because he knows, however badassy she thinks she is, she’s no match to even semi-serious masses of men-at-arms, knights, let alone the army of the dead on the battlefield.”
      _____________
      B-b-but … what about Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies?

        Quote  Reply

    219. talvikorppi,

      You know more languages than I do, Talvikorppi, well done. I learned a little Latin at school and French and I’m learning Spanish now as an activity with a local group for retired and semi-retired people. My late mother grew up speaking both Welsh and English (she was from Wales) but I never learned to speak Welsh though there are a few words my mother told me (there are a few YouTube videos about Welsh – and other languages). A TV show I like (other than GoT) is Canal+’s “Engrenages” which is in French but I find I have to read the sub-titles because I’m not up to date with French slang!…which does not have much to do with when WoW will (hopefully) eventually be published.

        Quote  Reply

    220. Maybe Martin should just hand all his notes to Sanderson and let him finish the series. I’m sure the last 2 books will be published within the year.

        Quote  Reply

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