Kit Harington is facing even more heat as Game of Thrones season 6 draws near as absolutely no one is willing to accept that Jon may actually be dead. Late night talk show host Jonathan Ross is among the many that believes he will be resurrected and took matters into his own hands for the truth.
IGN also has an interview with other members of the Game of Thrones cast on their approach to avoid revealing spoilers.
Kit Harington is shocked to find no one believes he is actually dead.
He also further explains why he was still involved in filming:
I was playing a corpse. I was there for a little bit, I was there for about a month or two months, it was spread over a bit and I was playing a corpse. I won’t tell you how many episodes I’m lying dead but it’s enough that I was out there for quite a while. It’s going to be so satisfying when you see it and you realise that I was telling the truth the whole time.
How he avoids spoiling the new season:
I am no longer involved in the show so any secrets that are with the show I don’t actually know anymore, so it becomes very easy Jonathan. You’re looking at me like you don’t believe me. It’s going to be so relieving when people actually see the show and realise that I don’t come back.
Even the Duchess of Cambridge is dying to know Jon’s fate:
Me and my brother got invited to Wimbledon as you do and a Royal was hosting, we didn’t know which Royal it was and it was the Duchess of Cornwall, and she was hosting it and we got sat with her, me and my brother. She leant over the table and said, “Are you dead?” No word of a lie.
Special thanks to Independent for the quotes!
Other members of the Game of Thrones cast are also getting their fair share of spoiler related questions including Michael McElhatton (Roose Bolton), Iwan Rheon (Ramsay), Alfie Allen (Theon), Maisie Williams (Arya), Liam Cunningham (Davos), Carice Van Houten (Melisandre), Dean-Charles Chapman (Tommen), John Bradley (Sam), and Ian Beattie (Meryn Trant) from IGN.
Since the TV series is surpassing the books, IGN asks if the actors think they have an influence on the character’s fate with the showrunners.
McElhatton: None whatsoever! No, I think it’s all very well planned out in advance.
Rheon: The thing with those two is, whatever you said, they’d probably do the opposite just to piss you off..!
On the cast’s expectations of the new season vs. the actual scripts:
Allen: For me it was just thoroughly disappointing… [laughs] No, I guess I don’t want to say anything, or give away any sort of tidbit about what is going to be there, because for me it could be equally as dark and horrible but still as fun to do and play. But I’m just glad to be there…. [laughs] Sorry…
Williams:
This series for Arya, being blind is a massive challenge. For the last season, when I got to wear the contacts for that one scene it was really exciting and I was really looking forward to this year. Little did I know, after about a week of doing stunts with them in, my eyes started to stream… [laughs] It was definitely a challenge but that’s what I love about playing Arya and I wouldn’t trade it for the world.
Cunningham: The first episode, the kick-off with her [points to Carice Van Houten], is astonishing.
Houten: Yes…! But it’s not what you think it is, it’s something else. I knew it was coming at some point, people had talked about it before to me, but I wasn’t sure when it was going to happen… oh, this is really vague… but it should be. And it’s in Episode 1 already.
Chapman: There’s a lot in Season 6 that I can’t tell you about… Uh…. I’ll say Tommen has a new objective, that’s all I could say… it’s a very good season.
Bradley: People don’t really want to know. They don’t. They say, in a vaguely jovial way, ‘Have you got any spoilers?’ and you just think, well listen to yourself. Listen to the word you’ve used. You want me to “spoil” it! If you told them and said, “OK, I’ll save you time,” not just relating to this, but to any cliffhanger, they’ll say [disappointed voice] “Oh… You’ve ruined it now…”
Touché, Bradley.
Meryn Trant (Ian Beattie) is back from the dead with his thoughts
I only ever read my scenes and I remember the last day of Season 4, I’d spent the entire season saying, “I don’t want to know what happens next!”, and me, Jaime and Joffrey were filming in the King’s Guard room. I finish the scene, sitting outside having a cigarette and Charles Dance [Tywin Lannister] walks past and says, “The little bastard [Tyrion] finally killed me!” Biggest spoiler ever…
For more, head on over to IGN!
Did Kit and Carice smother any of your hopes for Jon’s resurrection? Or will Azor Ahai rise from the flames in Season 6? Let us know below!
Hodor
“You’re looking at me like you don’t believe me. It’s going to be so relieving when people actually see the show and realise that I don’t come back.”
Carice’s quote has me scared too.
I wonder Liam and Carice are talking about in episode 1 that is “astonishing”. It isn’t Jon’s resurrection, does anyone have an idea?
I’m getting kind of worried here. Lol.
http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Kit.jpg
In case anybody is worried. remember this picture….
I just noticed in that picture, it looks like the guy in front of Kit sees the guy taking the photo and he has his arms crossed like “Are you fucking serious mate?”
Honor
Connor</strong
Took me along time to believe this was Kit, however. That's definitely longclaw he is wielding, I recognize the Nickle on the belt and the brass frame on the scabbard. So yeah, no matter how much he denies, lies, misleads, etc. this will haunt him until 9:00 24-04-16
Kit is a good sport and we fans are being trolled big time! 😆
Kit is good value! I would not have stuck my hand back in there after the first shock. Unless I was undead that is…
Nathanbc22,
Here’s a widened version of that pic, to the right you can see a flayed corpse tied to a cross, like in the trailers. This is hard evidence lol. But for some reason, i’m still a bit worried…
http://8840-presscdn-0-18.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Screen-Shot-2015-10-29-at-9.54.44-AM.png
At least Kit is having a ton of fun, I really can’t tell with that face of his XD
Wonder if he plays poker……
I’m really worried too!! Kit is pretty insistent and Carice is convincing too!! Don’t know what to think or even speculate?! Just hope it is not the worst?!
As far as Kit Harington tho, I couldn’t adore him more after watching that video of him on the Jonathon Ross show!! He is soooooo darned adorable!! And I think he is a great Jon Snow!! Loved his “dead” face!! PLEASE! PLEASE!! Let Jon Snow or whoever he will be resurrected as, live to fight the White Walkers and save the world!!
Considering Tommen’s previous objective had something to do with him and Natalie Dormer being in bed and barely clothed and some mysterious offscreen moaning, every day of the week for the rest of their lives.. I’m wondering about the “new objective” he’s talking about. Puberty is weird like that..
Maybe he’ll go after Loras next? You never know!
Cant wait to see all the fake reaction videos on youtube once Jon gets resurrected.
Like I said before the only way Jon stays dead is Bran taking over his body … permanently.
But yeah, most likely they are just really having fun with this.
Connor,
Kit is coming back as something, unless he is the poor guy on the X, jokes aside XD
We’ve read so much over the season 6 waiting period, I don’t know anything else to believe. Jon snow Dead inside stripped of all emotions, Jon snow is a walking talking corpse, Jon snow comes back as jon stark or some other identity, Jon Snow temporarily comes back with a time limit, having just enough time to defeat the boltons and dies on the field, or bran and the blood raven has something to do with him coming back. The possibilities are bloody endless, i’ll wait for the show to return thank you very much. XD
But you cant warg into a dead body…
Connor,
me too, but that’s only because we all know fudge all! On bbc breakfast, he just said “you’ll have to wait until season 6 comes out” when quizzed about spotted on set. Then trailer comes out. Suddenly oh yeah I was on set but as a corpse, I’m not coming back.
Kit just earned himself major troll status
Re Tommen:
I’m wondering about the “new objective” he’s talking about.
If he is not a total idiot it will probably be “staying the fuck alive” after seeing the body of his sister shipped in. Since “father”, brother and grandpa kneeled over in short succession before he should totally get: Guess I’m next.
Kit:
“It’s going to be so satisfying when you see it and you realise that I was telling the truth the whole time”.
“It’s going to be so relieving when people actually see the show and realise that I don’t come back”.
I don’t know you guys… a picture speaks a thousand words, but maybe not the words we want to hear.
We could speculate for hours: maybe it’s one of Bran’s visions, or a vision Melisandre sees in the flames; that way, he could be off Season 6 and back on Season 7, or, or…
Also, I know it might sound a bit off-topic, but going so public with his relationship to Rose Leslie (here ) as opposed to back when they were both on the show, almost gives you the impression that they feel more comfortable now, because the show is (really and finally) behind them and they moved on… :-/
Anyway, I know all the counter-arguments and yes, they all do sound rational enough, but every time Kit opens his mouth, doubt creeps in.
P.S: Apologies for my english 🙂
That picture is obviously from filming season 6, and he says in the interview that he is only playing a corps in season 6, so that should settle it. Hes clearly lying, very very overtly. Only a few weeks to go, and his hair still hasnt been cut yet. Unless someone has a plausible reason for the scene by the flayed corps that wouldnt involve anything in present day Westeros for season 6, Im all ears.
I’m stressing out here ahahaha 🙁
Ok but why doesn´t anyone ask him if he´s done filming the season 6 corpse why does he still have the hair style he hates so much?
Maybe he´s still playing the walking corpse in season 7 ?
The Stone of Truth is everything. 😀
Finally an interview where Kit looks like he’s actually having fun.
Nice hair, Kit!
Kit and Carice sound more convincing because HBO and their agents reprogrammed them well. They now know all the questions they should expect regarding the topic and have been coached on what to answer. They’ve been practicing.
Esmail,
I was starting to have doubts but I think you’re right. If he was really dead and is sick of all the questions etc…. he would’ve just cut his hair after filming his corpse scenes and been done with it.
That being said, I think Kit is such a wonderful sport and very patient. I can’t imagine the past year for him lololol…. just a little longer and we’ll find out the truth!
Ser Oromis Locke,
Me too lol
I have to ask, After all this time, can we be 100% sure thats Kit in that picture?
That cross guard definately looks like longclaw, but can we even be sure of that? I mean you can’t even see the wolf in it.
Sorry but why would he want to cut his hair? It suits him.
I don’t care if he comes back or not. I’m just going to enjoy the ride.
IF Kit is indeed lying after months and months on end, he will be the worlds greatest liar, i mean, i cant even lie with a straight face like this guy can!
Kit has Poker Face 2.0 lmao.
SUE,
(if you/anyone has time) We need a article from WoTW, summing up everything Jon Snow though the off season including: interviews, sources and things.
Simply to put it to bed. Until 24th
Save a lot of typing, speculating and trolling.
Thanks,
NBC22
Jon Snow being dead is the story of the thousand blades of Aegon’s enemies, a story he’s told himself over and over till he forgot that it’s a lie. And we all know what we have once we abandon the lie.
Joffrey's Cunt,
Defo Longclaw
Mel makes a shadow baby with Wun Wun.
LOL @ at some actually believing this weak troll act 🙂
Guys if Jon is dead then why are they doing the TOJ? The story needs Jon Snow.
And this..
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-battlefield-spoilers-out-of-northern-ireland-and-more/
And…etc, etc,etc, relax friends! 🙂
I love Kit’s sense of humor! Hahahaha! OMG a lie -detector test! Ramsay!!! 😉
If thats not Kit then Im a lizard man. It is so obviously Kit. You can tell from the facial profile, to the man bun, to the facial hair. Its him. Now what is he doing exactly? That is the question.
That pic is obviously during a break in filming, when even corpse actors can get up and walk around. (Assuming that’s even Kit, which is not necessarily the case).
There’s some precedent on the show for magical powers of burning a dead king’s body (Khal Drogo).
Yes, his corps is being carried around the north and just happens to end up on a battle field, in full armor with sword. LOL Now that would be funny.
The gullibility here, my gosh. It’s like it’s the first time some of you experience a promo campaign. This is showbusiness, actors will say what they are paid to say, what fits with the marketing agenda. Once again, how else can they protect a secret plot twist? Did any of you actually expect them to spoil it? They will obviously stick to their guns until it’s time to uncover the secret. How can anyone treat promo interviews seriously is beyond me. They’re all scripted, and done so for particular purposes. It’s the evidence and what’s common sense that should be considered, not words of actors, whose job is to play pretend. And if you insist on trusting words, trust those which belong to reliable sources that have no ulterior motives to mislead.
They left Jon’s death as a cliffhanger for a reason. To create a great plot twist. If he were gone for good, they’d still play it as if there’s a chance of him coming back, they’d play up the mystery, instead of having been straightforward about it. If he were dead and gone, they’d be spoiling their plot and defeating the purpose of the cliffhanger.
By being so open and casual about Jon’s fate, it’s obvious there’s a plot twist they want to keep a secret.
Kit’s very unconvincing in this interview btw. While some of you are getting doubts, each interview makes it more obvious to me. Those denials are backfiring. Doth protest too much and all that.
I was seriously worried after reading the transcripts of this interview,but after seeing it,… well I am a little less worried. It still bothers me that he is no longer sticking with just saying,” Jon Snow is dead”,but explicitly adding the whole” I am no longer on the show” & “I am not coming back” .We know he will appear in this season in some shape or form,but I don’t think its going to be what we want it to be, so I am preparing myself for a heartbreak.
I know Kit is promoting his play, but it still seems like he’s promoting for a show he’s not even going to be on.
Connor,
My guess is, and this is a long shot, that she reveals her glamour (she’s actually old and disguises herself as young and beautiful). She says something along the lines of “people coming up to her and telling her a theory” and that theory is going to be revealed episode 1. That’s one of the biggest Mel theories I know. We’re supposed to find out about her past this season too.
And if that’s the reveal, and they bring glamours into the show… Jon may be dead, and Kit could be playing any number of people disguised as Jon.
crimethink,
This is Kit 100%. It’s actually very easy to recognise him. You can also see Miguel Sapochnik there, who helms episode 9 in which The Battle of the Bastards happens. You can also see the Bolton cross and a flayed body strapped to it on that field. The kind of cross we saw in the trailer. In the trailer shot there was also an army behind it. We’ve got reports that Ramsay will be burning two characters on the Bolton crosses before the battle begins.
This is also a Saintfield set Kit and co are standing on, where the battle was filmed.
By refusing to answer questions about what happens in the next season. You know, like most other cast members have done?
Before you bring up Cumberbatch denying that he was playing Khan in ST, that was a totally different situation. Refusing to answer that question would imply he WAS playing Khan, so it wasn’t an option in his case. Kit refusing to answer whether he’s dead wouldn’t give anything away.
If that picture really is a resurrected Jon Snow, that means Jon’s hairstyle totally changed, and Kit doesn’t have to keep his Jon look anyway. It’s not an Alexander the Great going-into-battle hairstyle either, because Jon has fought in battles with hair flailing about before.
So obviously he’s keeping it for other reasons than being contractually bound or whatever explanation is going around.
Ghost,
That’s exactly what they want you to think! Don’t give in!
P.S. Your English is better written than most English speaking people. I would never have noticed had you not said something.
I hope that this promo campaign will teach some people a lesson as not to blindly trust celebrities, especially when they promote stuff.
Mel IS the glamour. She’s Mance.
Connor,
Yes, he would make a good actor. Wait….
This is some of his best work as an actor.
Pigeon,
That scene where she tried to seduce Jon Snow just got a lot more creepy.
lol he’s really doing a piss poor job of hiding it in this interview. It’ll be over soon, mate. Hang on.
So I replied to someone else about the ep 1 reveal, and the more I think about it, the more I believe I might be onto something (something I wish I wasn’t on to).
What if we find out episode 1 that Mel has a glamour, as theorized by many people. She shows Davos or something. Later on, the wildlings won’t listen to anyone, and things are going bad FAST.
So Mel and Davos decide to glamour someone to look like Jon and pass it off as a resurrection. That would make sense based on Carice’s interview, and Kit wouldn’t actually be lying (despite still filming, he isn’t really playing Jon Snow–he’s someone else disguised as Jon Snow).
Still crossing my fingers that Jon comes back, even if he’s un-Jon.
It gets lonely up north. ?
Maybe Mellisandre does something else that is amazing. Or maybe she brings him back in an unexpected way and that is what Carice means. Of course they could just be lying/twisting the truth to protect from spoilers.
It does scare me a little when they do this. I was one of those who never thought they would go full cliffhanger. I waited for a sign that he was warging or something and was so angry and freaked out after. It was the first time that season that I didn’t rewatch the episode. Yea, I do that. I want to be sure I didn’t miss anything.
I think that TOJ is the most convincing evidence for a comeback, though the pics are also very convincing. I don’t see any argument for including this secret storyline. And, you know, that long ago conversation about JS’s mum. It all points to Jons resurrection.
PS: does Khal Drogo actually have anything to do w how Dany hatched her eggs? I kind of feel like he doesn’t. It’s her, the fire, and maybe the sacrifice of the witch whose name I don’t recall. Miri?
phantomstrife,
You could have just put a full stop after “trust”. People generally believe most things they’re told. That’s why they try to only listen to one side of an argument, otherwise their heads would explode.
Looper,
But then he would be playing a (disguised) live person, not a corpse.
I’m not blindly trusting him. I don’t see any reason for him to lie. There are much better ways for them to promote the show and drum up suspense and interest.
every time he open his mouth the doubt comes in but the picture and the many reations of the cast betray him…
crimethink,
No there isn’t
I love his character, but I’m so sick of this ‘is he dead or not’ discussion that I really do not care anymore and I’m more interested in seeing what happens with the other characters…
So what is it that can be so surprising regarding Melisandre? Being undead and very very old can hardly be it. It’s been theorised for a long time now. Unless it’s meant to be surprising to casual viewers only.
When one keeps repeating something enough times one starts to really believe it, certainly enough to find the inner motivation to keep saying something with the sincerity of a true believer.
Sincerity is the key.
Once one masters faking that, they’re set.
Kudos to the cast and crew for keeping their commitment and trying to keep the curtain of suspended disbelief hanging so long.
I hope that isn’t true. I just hope not, I don’t want all of that character building for Jon to go to waste. We might find out about his parentage this season, and I want Jon to find that out. His character development was a waste of time then.
Looper,
I believe if glamour was happening it would have been hinted in season 3/4 like beric resurrection, so I doubt it would be introduced now. Being said. If this does happen, I’d be extremely pissed
This glamour thing is giving me mad Witcher 3 vibes right now, lol.
But, if they all of the sudden add the glamour thing to the show just like that out of nowhere, it would be bad writing, in my opinion.
Connor,
Tower of Joy inclusion and the whole deal about being a son(g) of ice and fire through Stark-Targaryen union/blood, possibly being AAR, basically shoot down such theory. Not to mention it’d would still render the character’s arc, the whole built up of it to dead end filler. Tormund would also figure it out in no time. Also Glamour hasn’t made it to the show. Even Melisandre has been seen without her ruby. It’s a hard trick to achieve and uphold. It requires a ruby and strong magic. We know Melisandre will not be a part of Jon’s Winterfell campaign so she will be away from him. No way to keep the illusion going. Besides Davos, being an honest and honourable man to a fault, and having aversion to Mel and her tricks, would be opposed to it.
Another possibility is that they really don’t show his corpse or the Wall too much in this season and he gets ressurected int the season 6 ?
If Mel’s big non-rez surprise isn’t someone being able to see through her glamour (and I still think Jon-in-Ghost is the most logical PoV for that), then it might have something to do with the Old Gods. Her faith in R’hllor is shaky at the moment, but maybe she will have a vision indicating that the Old Gods are real and have power as well. Maybe she will need the powers of both Ice and Fire to bring Jon back.
I’m picturing her going for a walk north of the Wall and having a weirwood tree smack her upside the head, like an Ent.
Glamour hardly seems like something D&D would adapt. It’s too much magic. also I think it’s a terrible idea.
Thanks for your comment! My worries about this “glamour” thing are gone.
I think i worry too much lmao.
Is it possible that Kit was really getting electric shocks in that scene? If he was faking, the timing of his reactions was very good, very convincing. Seems like there must be all sorts of rules about a TV network deliberately hurting someone, even with their permission. They have big legal departments worrying about lawsuits all the time!
Agreed.
There’s not a known formula for hatching dragon eggs. The Targaryens tried several methods to hatch them after the last pre-Dany dragons died, but all attempts failed. Given all the other instances where king’s blood is required for magic, it seems likely that Khal Drogo’s corpse was a necessary ingredient.
Demonmonkey,
Yes. They have really cut down on the magical aspects of the story, only kept the most esssential parts. The glamour is a very silly idea that I’m glad it hasn’t made it to the show.
Or they have just decided to go public with it. Less pseudo-drama/sensation potential for the tabloids. The more you try to hide something like that, the more of a story it becomes, which it really shouldn’t be imo.
Here is my tinfoil for the day. What if Jons death was a vision of the future by bran? Then he leaves cave with meters to prevent it ‘ the past is written and the ink is dry, but the future has yet to be written’ so the whole point of bran’s arc is to save the future?
Firannion,
It’s staged, just like the answers. It’s a skit. Actors don’t just get to act on movie sets.
Sigh. GDI, Kit, stop making me doubt everything we think we know about season 6. Either he is a fantastic liar & actor or we’ve been set up for a helluva disappointing heartbreak.
And before people start calling us gullible, naive, nonsensical ,etc., I’d like to say unless someone has seen the scripts or episodes, no one can proclaim with absolute certainty what will or will not happen in S6. Therefore it is reasonable for some doubt to creep in. Although, 1-2 months seems like a really long time for a corpse to be needed on set. Sigh.
As for Carice’s comment, if it’s not about resurrecting Jon in 6×01, then I think it’s about un-glamouring Mel and revealing what she really looks like. That would be a total WTF moment.
These final 3 weeks are going to be brutal.
BunBunStark,
7 months
Ugh. Makes me worried as per usual
I hope this also doesn’t mean he isn’t coming back till season 7..
BunBunStark,
These last 3 weeks are going to be very brutal indeed.
The only thing that helps is speculating on these forums. I would personally love to see more posts like this that invite speculation on the upcoming storylines. Helps to pass the time.
My main problem if he doesn’t come back is, there’s a whole lot of plot building for nothing. GRRM has taken great pains to weave the tale of R+L throughout the series. If nothing comes of that, it would be a tremendous waste of writing.
I refuse to believe that there is no point to it. It might be different than I think it is, but there is a point. I don’t see how it works with Jon dead.
There’s little to no chance Jon is rezzed in the first episode. given that the premiere is next week and such thing would definitely be spoiled ahead of time. It’s the last thing the showrunners want. See how angry they were about the leak of Jon in Stark armour photo.
There’s going to be more to Melisandre than just helping Jon come back. And they kinda have to built her up to the task. First she gets confused and upset, her faith crumbles, she questions her purpose, then we get some plot twist about her, and then she gets around to rezzing Jon. There’s a reason Carice’s scenes were filmed in super secrecy.
BunBunStark,
gullible, naive, nonsensical
sorry couldn’t resist 🙂
SansaStar,
I couldn’t agree more. If u compare it to other shocking deaths: Ned, Rob and Catlyn, Barristan, etc, this is obvious. There was no secret being hinted at that had yet to be revealed. Furthermore we know TOJ is happening. As you said, what is the point if he is dead? Robert is dead, Lyanna and everyone else. W out Jon it makes no difference.
And the bonus is that it makes him a hero of previously unknown lineage. That is a staple of the medieval epic. An absolute staple.
phantomstrife,
This is prob the question we should be considering. When, not if.
And you make a good point. I think it is possible they don’t do it in the first episode, but LC gushed so much about the amazing thing that Carice does in that episode so… But could he have been trolling us? I got the impression in recent interviews that he accidentally said too much. They may just be trying to walk it back. And it would be a strong way to finish the season opener. Kind of like that joy you felt when Arya got unexpected revenge in 401.
If JS doesn’t get ‘rezzed’ in 601, then I think we have to start to worry about how much time is passing and how he will be affected by it. When do you all think it might go down?
It is always strange to me when actors talk about themselves as the characters. “I am not coming back.”
YES YOU ARE.
Jon Snow is not coming back. Jon Snow is dead. You are DEFINITELY coming back… as NotJon.
Kit is absolutely adorable on the Jonathan Ross show. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him look so relaxed on a talk show before. Of course, the introduction of the ‘lie detector’ helped losing him up a bit. I love the look on his face when he first sees it and when JR turns up the shock level. He was a good sport about it.
And I love John Bradley’s appreciation of what revealing spoilers to fans means. I love spoilers. I’ve loved them since the mid-90s when I discovered the internet, spoilers, & the X-Files. But I’ve seen those same reactions that JB describes countless times on forums when people say they want spoilers and are then pissed when they get them. Spoilers are not for everyone.
Oh, for the love…
Everybody drink (or eat your cake). Are they even trying? Why not play off the “appearances” as possible flashbacks/visions? Weeks and weeks of filming as a “corpse”, yeah, ok. And why do you still look like you are camera ready?
21 days…
Yeah Kit. You were on set for two months being filmed as a corpse. Lol.
But seriously, if these tongue in cheek interviews are making die hard fans that care enough to check for spoilers and leaks on a fan website doubt Jons resurrection, then just imagine how much they are working on casuals. It’s just sort of funny how gullible and easily led astray people can be.
Because of potential leaks from the preview screening, my money is on them holding back the actual resurrection scene until Episode 2. People would blab if it happened in Episode 1. Two weeks until the HBO premiere is just too long to expect word not to get out.
Demonmonkey,
Okay so, episode 9 is the battle, (yes, he is present and ALIVE) so episode 7 &8 are usually pre battle prep, episode 6 maybe debate, plan, and negotiate. Episode 5 Or 6 is ToJ so maybe he may come back here. Logically based on trailer Info I expect after a Davos v Mel plot against nights watch he will make a triumphant return between episodes 3-6
Bearing in mind that in order to be ‘reborn’ Dany needed a sacrifice (Mirri Maz Duur), and that when Beric was brought back it was always painful and a sacrifice to Thoros…. maybe Mel sees in the flames that her sacrifice is the only way forward… so she burns herself alive on Jon’s funeral pyre. In the first episode. That would be fairly spectacular.
Only took like 6 months for someone to ask him “do you become a white walker” instead of the standard “are you dead?”.
If the premiere was another 6 months away maybe someone would ask him “Are you resurrected?”.
Thing is, to anyone with a bit of logic, these interviews gave the answers to their question without even asking about it.
See, interviews are always planned in advance and the interviewee has a veto on what can and can’t be asked. When they ask some weird question about a specific thing or a bizarre question of sexual nature or anything like that, it’s not like they’re surprising their guest; Their guest approved the question before hand.
So there was a billion questions about whether or not Jon snow is dead, and now a few about whether or not he comes back as a White Walker (a wight would’ve been a better question, but anyway, doesn’t matter ).
But thing is, there’s so many people doing these interviews that are aware of the books and theories on GoT/asoaif, that it’s impossible none of them thought “Hey, I’ll ask about a possible resurrection by melisandre or by the way of Ghost or anything like that!”.
They certainly did… But then Harrington vetoed the question out. That’s why the only boring question they asked over and over again is “Are you dead?”. Because they can’t ask anything else.
They would all want to ask about Ghost or Melisandre but they just can’t.
No one had to answer these questions to make it obvious. They only had to make sure the questions would not happen, ever, and you can figure it out the same way.
BETTER in fact because an answer can be a lie. But you don’t go through the trouble of blocking questions for no reason.
Hounds_Bitch,
Debunk: she saw her self on the battlements of winterfell
we already know Jon Snow is in the Battle, even if it’s someone pretending to be jon, 0 % chance of that being the case.
I Feel like having any other character besides Jon In the battle, interacting with Sansa, and getting the wildlings to fight for him wouldn’t have the same Impact. So Let’s have the Tower of Joy and have someone pretend to be Jon ? That’s just weak.
7 months what? If you’re talking about S6 filming, that was from the end of July to December 18-ish. That’s 5 months. I was referring to Kit saying he was on set as a corpse for 1-2 months, which I think is a long time for a corpse. Filming leaks, of course, indicate he was on set longer than that. But it still wouldn’t have been 7 months.
Nathanbc22,
I think I read somewhere on watchersonthewall where the resurrection would be in Episode 5 or 6, I don’t really remember the article, I’ll try to find it.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
You won’t find that in an article here- I never said that.
I think they do bring Jon back in the first episode…We just won’t know it.
BunBunStark,
Ah shite, my math is bad, my apologies but he was spotted between August – November so that’s 4 months
Matthew The Dragon knight,
It’s just makes sense when Davos and Mel’s plot has been hyped in the trailer, plus ToJ happens mid season. If I were writing the show (heaven forbid) it would be harder for me to bring him back then show ToJ origin story. That being said. His body will start to decay significantly by then.
Sue the Fury,
I read it somewhere, definitely. Can’t remember for my life
SnowIce,
That’s comment reads like its needs an explaination….
Please, sounds interesting
aiad,
This is one of the most telling things to me as well – the fact that no one ever asks him the very logical question about resurrection.
Aside from the Melisandre-is-ancient-and-glamored idea, what other major theories are out there? What else might she be doing in episode 1?
Sue the Fury,
whoops, my mistake XD must have been in one of the comments speculating or something XD
Nathanbc22,
Not necessarily… she could have seen the view from the battlements and assumed it was her… but if she had been ‘consumed’ by Jon, giving her life to reanimate him, she would have been seeing things from his perspective.
I’m getting worried too!
Though I think he’s coming back, to be fair he needs the long hair for his current stage play that starts next week. So not cutting it is not really a sign. What is a sign though is Kit is only doing that play from April-June. Game of Thrones starts filming in July.
This again ..
Iam not sure how many articles I have to go through till this mummers farce is done ..it can’t be more than 20 an article for a day till the season starts ..right
And the sad thing this then we have to endure all the ridiculous AA claims and connections of how he came back …hey there is salt hey there is a smoke hell there is nissa nissa..even though non of will make sense ..and the answer will be it should not be staight forward or literal..
With that said the one big way HBO and Got could trolled the fandom is by actually cutting that hair of kit …I dont see the importance of him having long curly hair anyway in the show .its not mentioned in books…its not important to character …that hardly have any resemblance to stark or targs ..unless until Rhaegar or lyanna is having a similar one . and after having Jamie tyrion and lancel and Loras and all …he could have simply gotten an hair cut ..
And he also does not like the hair …so it would have been win win for both HBO and kit …instead of this interviews which are turning out to be nauseating
Is it possible you read that on Los 7 Reinos? I remember Javi made a comment that it would make sense for the resurrection & the ToJ scenes to air in the same episode. And we know, based on the director, that the ToJ reveal will be in either episode 5 or 6. So some people took his conjecture as fact and it spread like wildfire.
Hounds_Bitch,
I don’t see that. That’s what Dany did to hatch her eggs. If we r being logical it has to be Beric Dondarian / Thoros style.
If he doesn’t come back within a day or two, won’t he be all LS crazy? I don’t think they will be able to leave it lie for too long. So 601 or 602.
He won’t be brought back in episode 1. I’m pretty confident in that. I think it’s part of the reason they aren’t giving the first four episodes this year. He’ll be brought back some time between 2-4. Also they know any person or reviewer who sees the premiere will spoil what occurs in it. I, therefore doubt they’re planning to bring him back in the premiere episode.
I just hope they don’t drag it out.
Demonmonkey,
Exactly! The crafting that’s gone in to making him the combination of the story’s two strongest bloodlines… It’s too perfect to waste, and if Jon dies truly knowing nothing (of his heritage), I’ll be a grumpy fan.
Demonmonkey,
I don’t think that it was the length of time it took to resurrect LSH in the books that created that batshit crazy vibe… I think it was the all consuming need for vengeance she felt… which I am presuming that Jon won’t feel quite so much… although if I were Olly I would be heading for the hills as fast as my traitorous little legs could carry me!
Hounds_Bitch,
What we have to bear in mind is that dany was actually alive and performing the marriage ..
If Jon was supposed to parallel anyone with drogo’s funeral pyre …then it will be with drogo who like jon is dead and will burn .
crimethink,
Except that I think Targaryens immolated themselves accidentally while trying to hatch dragon eggs on at least one occasion.
…
no… it can’t be!
Im starting to get a feeling that theon might actually be one of the two bodies on the cross. Its definitely going to be disappointing then. I mean, we’re all thinking he’s going to redeem himself and stuff and then to end up dying in the end. After all those torture, what else could be darker and horrible than that death of the flayed man!
fierce as a wolverine,
Mel is ancient and unglamoured would be my bet. One way to not die is to not age: so, if you can stop aging, then you can be ome quite ancient and still young.
That certainly is simpler than a model where she is magically kept alive butnot young, and then magically made to look young!
Firannion,
How would that be logical? I can think of no way in which that necessarily or even possibly follows from anything presented on the show. (And, of course, it contradicts what the books tell us, although most viewers do not know that).
Whatever the resolution is, it has to be one where Jane & Joe Viewer think either: “I knew it!” or “I should have seen it coming!” If there is no way that the viewer could have anticipated it, then it will get heavily critcized as Deus ex Machina or even as a plot-hole. (People sometimes confuse the two, after all.)
dragonbringer,
I agree, and should have left out the Dany comparison, but…. to date the only other template we have for this happening with a red priest is with Thoros and Beric. I think that it is fairly safe to assume that Jon will return, otherwise his book arc makes no sense. He hasn’t been used only to drive a particular storyline along, so when that is finished he is disposable (a la Robb), it is more about his developing character. As such he has to be reanimated one way or another, as his story is blatantly not yet over. And the assumption is that Mel is a little too conveniently placed for it not to be her. The Thoros/Beric ‘breathing life’ scenario isn’t, in my opinion anyway, spectacular enough to fulfil the given hype about it. And Mel is dispensable…. leading to the speculation that the most spectacular thing she could do in the first few episodes is give her life for Jon’s by burning.
“I won’t tell you how many episodes I’m lying dead but it’s enough that I was out there for quite a while”
and
“I am no longer involved in the show so any secrets that are with the show I don’t actually know anymore”
…don’t really make sense together; even if you’re playing a corpse, you’re still privy to something! Too much
Wimsey,
That’s fair. But glamored or unglamored, would Mel revealing that she’s older than assumed reach the level of amazingness that Liam and Carice are hinting at for the first episode. For me, no – she needs to do something, not just say “Hey, I’m having an existential breakdown so let me confide that I’m actually an 800 year old fire demon.” (Or immortal human, or whatever.) So….other thoughts?
(I’m really just trying to cultivate a conversation other than the perpetual “Jon is dead/Jon is not dead” debate…)
Also The Duchess of Cornwall and The Dutchess of Cambridge are def not the same person!
Yes, I am beginning to think that Mel’s “glamoring” will be the big reveal of Episode 1. Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! I really wish that glamoring wasn’t part of the show, but if it’s important, then it has to be in. Much like her shadow baby – another bit of her “magic” that I disliked too.
I think that Mel “meeting” with Arya again, or seeing herself on the Winterfell battlements will be as a different glamor. That’s why we have heard so little of Carice v.H. in the latter part of the season as if she didn’t do much filming in the last part of the season.
I have a baaaaad feeling about this.
fierce as a wolverine,
Is this glamour twist something in the books? (I’ve only read the first book, before Mel showed up) Because I have zero recollection of it being brought up in the show, so, if it’s a book only thing, I doubt it’s what Carice is talking about, since D&D hasn’t even remotely set it up (like the theory that Jon wargs into Ghost, or LSH).
On another point, I wonder if it was a coincidence that two weeks ago, Maisie Instagrammed a screen shot of her Hall of Faces poster with the caption from S2 where Mel says there’s darkness in her eyes and they will meet again. I’d love some resolution to that moment.
There was a theory way back, that one of the conspirators was glamored maybe by Mel, to look like Jon and was the one killed, while Jon was still on the way to the reunion, that is why Ghost was restless.
Hounds_Bitch,
Also: there is no LS in the show. Just occurred to me that they are not constrained to that logic in any case because they left her out.
A lot of times, when an actor says they shot for a certain length of time, it’s just short hand for when they started and when they wrapped. It rarely means they shot each one of those days. It could very well he had long breaks in between when he was needed – in fact, with all the paparazzi shots of him coming and going from the Belfast set, that’s probably a logical assumption.
I think his significant plot armor points to him coming back in some form (I think it’s possible he’s resurrected, but in a form where Kit couldn’t play him). Other suspicious things is that other than a quick indie film shoot, it doesn’t look like Kit had any other acting jobs last year, which is odd for someone who was “hot” coming off that finale. That leads me to believe he shot more than just a corpse role.
However, this is GRRM, a guy who loves to screw with narrative conventions, and could very well be one step ahead of all of us. And Kit and the others sound really convincing and definitive.
Ravyn,
I think they vaguely referenced, in a conversation between Mel and Selyse in season 4 (?), that Mel is capable of making men see things that aren’t there, or making herself look more attractive. But otherwise, yes, in the books
I hope glamor-reveal does not turn out to be the big event that happens in episode 1, but I’m trying to recall other fan theories involving Mel, or the Wall, and the only one that comes immediately to mind is ice dragons and her former obsession with using king’s blood to ‘wake dragons from stone.’
SansaStar,
Yeah, exactly. And the show has added more scenes to make it even more likely. They added Mel learning about Beric’s resurrections from Thoros for what reason exactly? And the reminders last season of question marks of Jon’s parentage and Lyanna’s ‘abduction’. Those things aren’t added for no reason. There’s certainly been some outright untruths told, but somehow I suspect Kit’s words will prove to be also partly true. Personally, I like him as a Coldhands-type character, controlled by Bran and Bloodraven. Fully able, but dead as a door nail.
There is just no way they will have Jon resurrected in episode 1. It would be terrible plotting. “Oh, he’s dead!” 1 episode later, “Oh! He’s alive!”
It doesn’t matter if those episodes are 10 months apart, it is STANDARD story telling that’s been used on dozens and dozens of TV shows over the past few decades. It’s the cliffhanger-into-a-take-back you see on network TV shows even today.
And the way Kit can say “[Jon is] dead and not coming back” and that we’ll see he’s been telling the truth is because when his body is brought back, it comes back not as Jon but as someone else… or being resurrected with knowledge that makes him say Jon is dead and that he’s been reborn as someone else.
fierce as a wolverine,
OK, thanks, I remember that conversation, where she talked about how a lot of what she does is trickery. We know GRRM likes that stuff, but D&D has really played it down, and that seems like a real throwaway moment to hinge a big twist on (unlike the Beric resurrection from S3). I just hate the word “glamouring” since it reminds me of how terrible True Blood was after awhile.
I would like to ask Kit why he is spoiling the show.
Why is he definitively telling us about what happens to him when we still need to watch the show.
How do we know he’s dead for keeps? We’ve seen magic and revival on the show before. Isn’t that a massive spoiler to reveal his fate?
Connor,
Bran does what he wants!
Don’t you remember Liam saying recently that he and Mel make strange bed fellows this season? Something is making him bend in his “honorable ways” and I’m sure it prob has something to do with the fear/reality that they could all die if they don’t work together!
Here is a video of his full appearance on the Jonathan Ross show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT0hsKz2NFI
When you look at he rest of the interview he says most things almost with a smile and a wink. This is an hilarious interview.
I Came back from a bull shit walking Dead Ending to this…..
Good Times 🙂
Jon Snow Will Return 2016 <3
Why would they bring glamouring in to the show in the beginning of season 6? they never hinted at it before. And Melisandre wasn’t wearing a ruby necklace throughout the show anyways, and it seems really stupid anyways.
Boudica,
Thanks for that, having a great time watching this Interview.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
I love JDM, but what the hell was that????? ?
Hmm…for people who don’t really like magic in the show, my best guess is that they really not going to like the next few seasons?
The glamour thing is heavily hinted in Mel’s POV chapter in Dance with Dragons. There is also a sort of “flashback” to Mel’s past in there…
If it’s true what they say about going into things from Mel’s Past, I think you’re probably going to be unhappy about where that storyline may be going…
Longtime lurker, first time poster. (And my last name is Stark in real life, woohoo!)
My concern, and it’s been mentioned here before, is that the pic
. I know it’s been mentioned that the director is the same as the big battle, so hopefully that won’t happen! I am truly hopeful that isn’t the only way he’s incorporated.
How many GoT actors of deceased characters continue to do interviews on late night shows post-death on the show anyways?
Of all those cast members statements, I reckon John Bradley’s comment sums up this whole spoiler business the best?
Bradley: People don’t really want to know. They don’t. They say, in a vaguely jovial way, ‘Have you got any spoilers?’ and you just think, well listen to yourself. Listen to the word you’ve used. You want me to “spoil” it! If you told them and said, “OK, I’ll save you time,” not just relating to this, but to any cliffhanger, they’ll say [disappointed voice] “Oh… You’ve ruined it now…”
What’s the point in watching GoT if you know in advance what’s going to happen? Surely the whole point of a TV show like this is the surprise one gets from it when something unexpected (or tragic) happens. The Red Wedding being a perfect example.
In the past this was more difficult as the TV show more or less followed the books and the book readers had a pretty good idea what was going to happen, but not any more. I for one am glad the cast have “Kept Mum” regarding S6.
The exception being Ian McShane with his, “Its only tits and dragons!” statement.
As for Kit Harington, its pretty obvious he’s trolling the fandom. He made a statement not so long ago that GoT will be a part of his life into his 30’s !!! HBO also with that JS poster and scenes in the trailers.
So I’m just going to wait with trepidation and see what happens 😉
PS. A pity it was the ‘Jonathan Ross Show’ he appeared on? I can’t stand that geezer – he’s an arrogant little shite and full of his own piss and importance 🙁
Maybe he’s an extra in the big battle or the ToJ….
No, it’s just Kit and Carice who are getting damn good in this game.
I think the entire cast should get a thumbs up for downplaying any rumors.
No other killed off character has stayed so close to a production.
All the others moved on and left GOT in the past.
Either Kit Harrington has a bad case of not being able to let go, or he’s really still part of the show.
Thank you! It was a fun interview. Watching the entire thing puts my mind at ease a bit.
I don’t know who Jonathan Ross is but he’s a much better interviewer than most of the American late night talk show hosts I’ve seen. He at least gives a passable impression that he’s familiar with GoT and all the hoopla surrounding Kit & Jon Snow.
Obviously, Kit was going to stick to the company line but I loved that they conducted the interview with a wink-wink and a “I know you know” and “I know you know I know”. I LMAO at around 7:45 when Ross starts riffing on the numerous scenes Jon’s corpse will pop up in. He’s a funny guy. I wonder if he’s interviewed other GoT actors.
Any news on the Red Carpet premiere next Sunday? It’s in 6 days and they haven’t said much about it besides the Omaze campaign. No start time or anything yet?
I don’t know about the Red Carpet but you just reminded me that we still haven’t gotten the freakin’ title for 6×01. Gah! At least with a title we’d have a day or two of speculation to keep us occupied. Throw us another bone, HBO.
Boudica,
Thanks for the link. It’s the funniest Kit Harington interview I have seen!
Jack Bauer 24,
Fingers crossed for story integrity. Not that I don’t like Jon, but no more fakeout deaths, GRRM!
dragonbringer,
Here we go.
Another comment of yours about it. Get over it. As for in your interpretation ridiculous claims about him being aar. t’s not so ridiculous but since you’re taking it too literally. For one hoping these is not going to be on saviour even if you would like it to be.
Ron,
I think that IF – and we all know it’s not the case, but let’s just give it a play – Jon really is dead it is not so much that he is bringing it up all the time, but he gets asked every single time.
Honestly, I under stand why the play he is about to do is being premiered about the same time as S6 starts; people will want to see Kit regardless. But IF (…) Jon really is dead, it really screws with Kit’s future projects and he always remain Jon Snow of House Nothing Known.
Connor,
Who says they can’t. This is a drama with fantasy aspects 🙂
A few of us said this could be a real possibility after watching that promo teaser when it first came out. I still haven’t completely written it off.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
That was an AWFUL ending episode!!! What is it with this bullshit fad of killing main characters and leaving the audience guessing for months who hell it was?!!
Not to mention that people still don’t seem to understand that there’s a difference between White Walkers/Others and wights. Presumably the actual question was meant to be “Do you become a wight?” since the only humans who are turned into White Walkers are Craster’s newborns (and even those are show-only, so far).
Edit: Ah, but I see that you did get to that point! ; ) No, it doesn’t really matter in the great scheme of things, but I do find it an annoying common confusion.
There can’t be many sane Watchers left on this site….
every Time kit has an Interview I Feel like someone on this site Abandons all reason.
God help us, Winter comes 4/24/2016 20 days left 🙂
Ghost,
Your English is more than fine! As for Kit’s insistence, I’m curious why so many are all of a sudden worried that maybe he IS telling the truth when even recently he was making similar statements and they were saying we’re naive for buying his lies. I don’t know what has changed precisely lol. I still think that both could be true and he gets res’d and does stuff in S6 (whether it be really Jon Snow or Bran Snow-Stark) but then dies “again” at the last episode, and so he’s technically not lying. Haha that would be hilarious if it were true and next season’s cliffhanger we’re back at square one with “Is undead Jon truly “dead” now??
Esmail, Hoyti Von Totiy,
I don’t think his hair can be an indicator of anything anymore. He knows it’s his signature look, said he likes it now, and the play director might have asked him to keep it because it fits the role there as well.
Brandon,
Oh gawd, that just gave me a thought. What if those people who try to fit Dany into the TOJ as a twin of Jon’s are right and the TOJ scene confirms the theory with Jon but the real surprise is Dany, and it ends up all about her. She finds out about her brother and then learns what happened to him, comes to Westeros not only to capture the throne but take vengeance upon those who wronged her brother???
All I got to say is… HeavyBubbles.
I come to WotW each day, hoping for a glimpse of S6 episode titles, but all I see is Snow… 🙁
I don’t agree at all that stopping the aging process would be easier, or less magically costly, than being able to manipulate other people’s perceptions of what someone or something looks like. There is plenty of literary precedent, in not only contemporary fantasy literature but also medieval legends and ballads, of young beautiful women appearing to be horrible ancient hags and vice versa.
Ser Low-Res,
Good news, we will get those Episode titles This Month 🙂
well two……
one.
One instance of “glamouring” could work. A surprise Melisandre reveal. But anymore than that I don’t think they would adapt, unless the tone of the show is about to change quite a bit.
It makes a lot of sense to me that an animal would be the most likely viewer to be able to see through a glamour or illusion put on for the benefit of humans. Why bother investing the additional magical energy (which presumably comes at a cost) to try to fool animals, if you come from a country where wargs do not abound?
I know that you are quite convinced that Jon will not warg into Ghost because you believe that there has been insufficient setup, but some may disagree. We shall see what we shall see.
If there is no point in watching something if you know what’s going to happen, why do you think people watch favorite TV shows or movies more than once, or reread favorite books over and over? Why bother ever going to see another production of Hamlet if we know that the prince dies in the end?
Not everyone thinks that the surprise factor is more important than the art of the execution. For me and many others, having already read about the Red Wedding in ASoS only served to increase our anticipation for seeing it onscreen. Good stories remain so no matter how many times they’re retold.
phantomstrife,
“….Besides Davos, being an honest and honourable man to a fault, and having aversion to Mel and her tricks, would be opposed to it.”
But in a recent interview Liam said something to the effect that his views change and he and Mel has to work together.
Demonmonkey,
Episode 2 or 3 at the latest. There’s too much shit to do and set up before the battle. It’s not the comeback that’s the big thing, it’s what follows it.
Not resolving the issue soon would have people distracted too.
Firannion,
That’s what I was wondering at the time. His reaction seemed so real lol. I think he felt something, not an electric shock exactly, for reasons you stated, but something he didn’t expect. Maybe the trigger had cold water squirt out, or that slime stuff kids play with 🙂
Ygritte,
Jon brings them together. He’s the new Stannis in this ‘threesome’. Liam has said he’s drawn to Jon, the kind of person and leader he is. Yes Liam kept using present tense. Mel and Davos have just lost their champion, Stannis died to make way for Jon in their lives. Apart from his own arc, Jon absorbs book Stannis’s arc this season.
SansaStar,
It only works if it also means something to the other main characters as well. And the only main one I can think of that is could possibly mean something to is Daenerys. And that is IF the tinfoil-ish theory I’ve heard about her turns out to be right and Lyanna Stark is her real mother.
‘I knew it was coming at some point’. If we’re to take away anything from it is that the ‘astonishing’ thing is not a new development but something Martin or D&D thought of regarding Melisandre’s background in the past. So it’s not what she will do, but what she is.
GeekFurious,
So Kit comes back as “someone”, okay fine. But why are many Okay with the character being dead for good? I loved “Jon Snow” not “Kit playing someone who is a completely different person inside.” I mean, that’s cool and all, but still saddens me that the one truly “good” guy that was built up in this story was murdered in cold blood like that.
fierce as a wolverine,
Well for people like us who know all the theories and have talked them over for the last several months, no it wouldn’t necessarily be a shocker. But I’m guessing that to the casual viewer who doesn’t look for info, spoilers, read comments extensively if even (which I might conclude most people are, as personally this is the only show I’ve ever done this with) it would be out of left field if Melisandre revealed herself as being something she isn’t.
Oh, I agree if anyone is glamoured it’s Mel, but I rather doubt that they are going to use that more than once; in fact that may be why the show cut the LSH thing; they just wanted to have ONE resurrection…
As for the R+L=J+D…LOL; well, it’s actually less crazy than some of the theories out there, even though the ages don’t quite work…and anyone who has played close attention to Danny’s memories of the past in the books will tell you that there is something seriously wrong with them…(aka the Lemon Tree theory.)
Kay,
If true, I don’t care for this direction either. Who knows, maybe after it happens and depending how it plays out, I might warm to it, but right now I don’t care enough about Melisandre to be hyped about having her replace Jon as focal point of the wall/N story line.
Connor,
I think it might be Melisandres glamour cracking because she’s starting to loose faith. So we’ll see the hundred year old lady behind the facade, which would be an awesome visual.
George,
I know that without having read the source material I’m at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to informed speculation, but I just can’t seem to resist anyways 🙂 The theory, from what I can remember, was crouched in the idea that there’s something to the “mystery” behind Ellaria’s stillborn, (Jon’s wet nurse…why include that in the show, maybe some kind of clue) her death from a fall but body never found, Eddard’s insistence that Dany not be killed (although I would easily chalk this up to his being a normal human being in not wanting to hurt an innocent child) and her vision of the blue flower at the “Wall.”
Any twin theories, or theories about Dany being a secret Targaryen are terrible theories. Or any extra baby switching theories for that matter.
George has stated that Dany was born 9 months after Jon Snow. It tells you that Jon was born quite late or at the end of the war, properly after the sack of Kings Landing. Thus for example Brandon is also very likely not his father since he would have been dead. Ned was busy calling the banners, marrying Catelyn and fighting a rebellion. There is really only one mostly logical answer here.
There is no reason whatsoever for Dany to be a secret Targaryen, she is recognized as the last Targaryen and she has 3 fire breathing dragons.
GRRM has shown before that POV characters have unreliable memories. Sansa dreams and thinks that she and the Hound has shared a kiss, while they never did. When Ned visits the armorer in Kings Landing he thinks to himself that it is strange that he is thinking about Rhaegar, he has not thought about him in years. While he just actually thought about Rhaegar three times before in the previous chapter.
Memories and thoughts from characters are simply not always reliable. Dany was very young when these memories were taking place. Perhaps Dany was in Dorne at some stage, or perhaps she has just embellished one of her few good childhood memories for herself.
Well they have tons of resurrections already, don’t they?
Beric Donderian 7 times (one on screen), Frankenmountain, an army of wights.
“The boy’s bothers…Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”
Winter is coming,
Storm is coming
I think this April’ll be an changing one.
Looper,
Thank you for the emotional support, ahahaha! 😀
I love good story telling. I have no specific idea how they’d pull it off and make it work… but until I see it, I’m not going to say “I won’t like it because I liked Jon Snow!” I loved a lot of characters on the show who died. If they were resurrected as some other consciousness, I’d be okay with it… if it made sense and it worked within the context of the story they’ve been telling the whole time.
So, I’m going to wait and see. But what I’m very confident about is that Jon Snow is dead and done. We will never see Jon Snow again. We may see Kit playing someone in Jon Snow’s body… and that character may even have Jon Snow’s memories and feelings, but I doubt he’ll call himself Jon Snow or even act like the old Jon Snow we knew.
Jon Snow is dead.
And to touch on the other discussion that comes up every now and then (and is in this thread), R+L=J makes sense and I’m confident will play an important role this season. R+L=D makes no sense and Preston Jacobs fans need a serious class on critical thinking.
We have one character making that claim, but GRRM’s world is thickly populated with unreliable narrators and ‘conventional wisdom’ that turns out to be untrue. So I’d reserve judgment about whether that’s what the WW/Others do with the Craster babies, until the author gives us more corroboration. Maybe they just make good snacking.
anything less than sounding convincing enough. ….that Jon is dead and he isn’t gonna come back is gonna convince everyone he is gonna come back hence he is denying he isn’t coming back with full conviction to keep the surprise alive ,. ……..so I’m convinced he is gonna come back and I’m I’m convinced he will be convincing when he says he is dead ….coz he wants to convince everyone he is dead which he isn’t ….,,
convinced? ??
You’re going to be greatly disappointed if you believe Jon Snow is coming back.
GeekFurious,
Jon Snow is done! That part of his life is over.
Jon Stark may rise as the ‘prince to come’ to avenge the Starks and prepare the north for the battles ahead.
Boudica,
“George has stated that Dany was born 9 months after Jon Snow.”
Okay so 9 months give or take a couple weeks. One right after the other. It does happen. 🙂
So the “Song of ice and fire” is name of the story that will be passed down to the generations just like Dance of dragons (also called song) is. I recalled Shireen talking about it and was always intrigued because of the obvious parallels. The ones who fought that war were half-brother and sister and afterwards succession always went to the male. Notice how so many of the men in GOT seem to be dropping like flies (or are rumored to be soon?) Bran’s turning into a tree even. And the women are being hyped this season. How we all agree that Jon and Dany are the main-est of the main characters but they killed Jon, and yet we still instinctively know that Dany’s plot armor is so thick she won’t die? So all this time she is heading out to conquer Westeros but in the end she winds up having to save it. Targaryen’s win back the throne starting a female line of succession. Sansa is her hand and Brienne head of the Queensguard….
If Jon really does live till the end: We also see unJon (who is fighting against Dany) stop and look puzzled as a glimmer of his former self comes back to him, and just as the last, most powerful, WW is about to strike Dany he battles him till the death, giving his life for her…just thinking out loud lol
Deesensfan,
Don’t worry! There were several interviews and threads like this when you were in Cuba. The more I read, the more convinced I become that Kit will return.
GeekFurious,
Who’s Preston Jacobs? Is he one of the posters here that brought up the theory? I’d love to ask his reasoning for it, I don’t remember all the details.
Ghost,
Why dos everyone say it could be a vision from Bran. When did Jon Snow ever fight in Stark armor in the past? It can’t be a vision from Bran because there is no vision to see.
crimethink,
Why would Jon Snow corpse be in Stark Armor? What are you talking about Khal Drogo connected to TOJ.
This interview was one of the funniest I have ever seen…Great show! As for the big question is Jon Snow dead or not – well, everyone is hopping that he will arise somehow but actually his death could be just the end of the story for this character…so simple as many others which died before him.
If I was the writer I would prefer to use him as a White Walker 🙂
Where did he say that? That would contradict the usual series of events in R+L=J. We know that Dany was conceived before the battle of the Trident, because her mother was evacuated from KL, already pregnant. If Jon was born before the battle of the Trident that screws up a lot of the R+L=J timeline.
He’s a popular ASOIAF YouTube channel. Makes interesting videos, but draws sweeping conclusions on very, very weak evidence IMHO. Seems to think everybody in Westeros is secretly working for Varys or Littlefinger.
White Walkers,
I’ve never seen him before but this host seems like a funny guy. I got a kick out of the way he offhandedly said Jon’s dead body must get carted around and shows up in different rooms and peple go “oh there he is… ah here he is again lol.
fierce as a wolverine,
I am betting that the “amazingness” will be a visual spectacle that the general audience will deem amazing.
GeekFurious,
He is one of the two most principle protagonists. This is not your typical silly fantasy story, with arbitrary character shifts or Deus ex Machina plot devices. More than anyone other than Daeny, Jon is the overarching story; and discarding 4 stories worth of character evolution would be as damaging to the overarching story as the iceberg was to the Titanic.
Firannion,
When you have a character’s claim in the books replicated on the show, then I think we can abandon the idea that this was unreliable narration. At any rate, always go with the simplest explanation that has the fewest contradictions: and the simplest and least contradicted explanation right now is that GRRM is imagining that Craster’s sons become White Walkers.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Jeremey Kyle is apparently a controversial talk show host kind of like Jerry Springer was (or is, no idea) in the States.
Why do I find some of the British hosts so much funnier than most American ones 🙂 Does just the accent give it that edge?
You could have said the same thing about Ned during the first season, Robb and Cat during the third season, and Stannis during the fifth. Nobody is safe, no matter how vital to the story you think they are, largely because you don’t know what the story really is at any given time. The lack of PlotArmor is one of the ways ASOIAF/GOT subverts fantasy conventions.
Connor,
I don’t think the show will ever introduce the “Glamour”. Three reasons why, One: it is cheesy and almost too “magic” for GoT. Two: True Blood on HBO just had a glamour and doubt GoT going to introduce it now. Three: it is a cop out in writing. “Crap, wrote myself into a corner, OH LETS USE THIS Red Woman to have the ability to change someone’s appearance to everyone, this will save me from creating a Meereenese Knot up at the wall.” I actually thought it was the worst part about the entire Song of ice and fire series. They have never introduced it either. Then it will def. look like a cop out on the show.
BunBunStark,
Well the nonsensical part of what you are referring to is the fact there are photos of Kit Harington in Stark garb. Now could that be a vision from Mel? yeah, she said she had a vision of him fighting outside Winterfell in a great battle. She could be visioning that battle. So yes, there is one loophole. other than that, There is ZERO reason for Jon to be dressed in Stark garb, they won’t burn him in it.
Hounds_Bitch,
It is not painful and exhausting for Thoros. It takes a toll on beric. Everytime Beric is revived he is less and less. Thoros is fine after reviving Beric.
Ygritte,
I’m sure British accent has something to do with it – you’re a native speaker and for you it must be funny to listen to someone using a different accent than the one you are used to. You live in New England, don’t you? I have always imagined that people there speak elegantly as their ancestors were the pilgrims.
For me, as you know, English is a learned language, but I still consider British accent funnier when associated with comedy – it doesn’t matter whether it’s posh or gang-like! Maybe because I love English humour and one of the first sitcoms I have ever loved is ‘Allo! ‘Allo! Do you know it?
Me,
Yeah, those are fake. But then again, when the hell are we going to get the titles??
It’s also important to note that guests on talk shows these days always know what they will be asked in advance, in many cases they can ask that a question NOT be asked or that it be asked in a different way
Again, longtime lurker. New to posting here.
I actually think it would be kind of awesome and an upset if Jon was the world’s only hope and that humanity, being so caught up in politics and power struggles, screwed itself. That would be quite an M.Night twist: The whitewalkers win in the end and the world is left a frozen wasteland!
But, all kidding aside–I’m wondering why Mel would see Jon fighting at Winterfell if he wasn’t coming back. What’s the significance of Jon in Winterfell in her vision in the flames? I mean, why Winterfell?
crimethink,
No, you could not have said the same about Ned, Catelyn or Robb. For one thing, Ned goes out in the first season: and although it was important to establish the main characters of the overarching story then, it was also important to establish the characters important to the first story. Indeed, many have suggested that he was a faux protagonist: and he certainly was where the overarching story is concerned.
As for Catelyn and Robb, they were important to the “first act” stories. However, we have just finished the “second act” story, which focused much more on the evolution of particular characters. In a lot of ways, it is the Act I -> Act II transitions that were important: Act I gave us the children, Act II gave us the men/women that those children hope to be, and Act III is going to he what those men/women make of themselves.
Stargaryen,
The fact that the show has not ontroduced glamouring yet only reflects that it has not been important in any one season. They tend to not introduce things until they are important. So, if it is important for the Winter story, we might see it in this series.
That written, we have no more reason to expect this than we have to expect any other magic that we know GRRM imagines to be possible in his world.
crimethink,
I think we already addressed this argument. You cannot say the same thing about characters like Ned and Rob and Cat. They had stories, and we thought that they had a mission to accomplish before they died. In the case of Jon, there is a mystery about his parentage that has yet to be revealed. A mystery that could have great ramifications for the line of succession, as he is Rhaegar’s only surviving son. That might put him ahead of Dany, though there is no guarantee on that.
This is supported by the inclusion of TOJ and last year’s hinting at Jon’s blood. Mellisandre tried to make a shadow baby with him. She has never tried to do have sex with anyone who didn’t have “king’s blood”. Then there was Sansa bringing up the whole Lyanna-as-captive story and Littlefinger’s dubious looks. There is no reason to play all of this up and then let it lie. Admittedly, they could do that, but I don’t see it happening.
If we follow this model of unexpected deaths (without resurrection) to it’s conclusion, Dany is actually less safe than Jon. She has no secret backstory. She just has a mission that we feel she needs to fulfill, much like Rob and his vengeance.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
I think it’s veeeeeery interesting Kit used the words, “lying dead”.
Am I really the only one who read that as “dishonestly dead”? 😉
I think more and more that jon might come back not early in the season, maybe at epsiode 5 or 6, thats why he talks so much that he has done so many scenes as a corpse. Rather would like to have him back earlier, but I think they are doing this to make people nervous at the beginning of the season and have some fans doubting that he might come back.
I think it would be a let down if Jon came back as someone completely different. I think if he comes back he should be distinctly different, i imagine a blend of himself and the ruthlessness of Stannis. Less of that Stark honor, as that tends to get people in trouble, but I want him to be cognizant of his experiences and past life. But since when have we gotten what we wanted from Thrones.
Is this description for episode 1 new? Just found it on google:
A civil war brews between several noble families in Westeros and the children of the former rulers of the land attempt to rise up to power; a forgotten race returns after thousands of years in the North.
GeekFurious,
nah I’m pretty confident …Jon will be back …..In one form or the other. …..
I think the amazing thing that Carice will do in episode 1 involves Gendry and a ping-pong ball.
As for Jon Snow being dead and not coming back, I could believe it.
Although, Jon Stark or even Jon Targaryen… well, that’s a different matter.
Yea, the whole “when was Jon born” timeline in the books is actually a mess, if you hold it under too much scrutiny (assuming R+L=J is true). Actually, the whole timeline of Robert’s Rebellion is a bit of a mess too.
HunterMac87,
“But since when have we gotten what we wanted from Thrones.”
See yes, there is THAT. And it’s the the underlying reason why I still worry about some of the theories others seem sure of.
2 huge filming spoilers – 1) Kit dressed as a Stark and 2) Filming of TOJ – if we didn’t see either of those and HBO was doing this marketing campaign, we would have serious doubts too.
Most of the casual viewers do not follow filming – they are who this campaign is geared towards, not us. And I can guarantee it’s working perfectly.
It is in So Spake Martin.
I dont see why it would cause a problem with the timeline.
Connor,
It’s funny how people forget that this picture of him in costume and on set exists..
Shy Lady Dragon,
Really???? The more I do, the less convinced I become ahahah
Heh.
Spoiler (kinda, but not really, but kinda):
http://49.media.tumblr.com/8a8f7a38685bb44e1ed226117890907d/tumblr_o54bqia5Ln1u4y4f0o1_540.gif
Don’t rely too much on Martin’s ability to navigate numbers and timelines. He has said he’s poor at that. The bottom line is that no other alternative to R+L=J makes any sense or has any textual hints, let alone evidence.
If it turns out Melisandre’s like 400 years old, perhaps she’s a survivor of The Doom of Valyria, which happened 400 years ago in the timeline…And as an infant was sold into slavery.
crimethink,
His hairstyle hasn’t really changed in that picture. It’s in a manbun and styled a bit like Neds. That is 100% Jon Snow in STARK armor, something he has never worn (so it’s not a flashback), and with Longclaw on his hip. The only theory that could possibly indicate that it isn’t really Kit is if they, for some reason, got an extra who looks a bit like Kit Harington (same profile, body style, long black hair, etc), dressed him up in Stark armor and had him, the director and filming crew all go stand out at the battlefield filming site where they knew they’d have someone take a grainy photo of them from a far away hilltop. All just to troll the super fans and get their hopes up.
If you want to believe that, it’s cool, but come on now. That’s Kit Harington in costume with Stark gear on. It’s not Kit Harington just hanging out on set after being filmed as a corpse in his Nights Watch outfit.
There’s also footage of Kit Harington and all of the Saintfield battle extras going out for drinks after the battle scenes were filmed, they were singing Bolton songs and celebrating. http://watchersonthewall.com/emilia-clarke-films-in-almeria-while-kit-harington-parties-in-belfast/
ASOIAF is not just a story about breaking troupes and being unpredictable, there is definitely some recognizable threads running through the story, and some troupes. Troupes is not a bad thing, it depends on what is done with these troupes. Any story is depended on some kind of troupe, it is part of storytelling.
GRRM does a really good job of applying these troupes in a non obvious manner, but as we are getting closer to the final act, some patterns have been established, and there are some recognizable threads.
The story’s main focus is obviously about the most prominent POV characters, those who have been there right from the start. For the Stark children and Dany, it is a coming of age story, while Tyrion is seeming on a more conventional character arc.
Ned fulfills the classical mentor or father figure that has to die. Catelyn also fulfills a similar role. Both Ned and Catelyn really had to die in order for the Stark kids to advance their arcs. If Ned or Catelyn where still alive it would cause the Stark children to still be children. With both of their parents dead they are forced to grow-up and face the world on their own. The death of both parents serve as an advancement for their arcs, in their coming of age story.
Robb and Stannis was never POV characters, they are important from an inverse context, but from a storytelling context they are not important characters. Their deaths and actions are only there to serve the arcs of the main characters. It gives the main characters more challenges to deal with on their road towards growing-up. The main protagonists are constantly being challenged, and they have to learn to change or adapt to these challenges.
Where GRRM is really clever as a writer, is his fully developed secondary characters. His secondary characters are so well developed that people sometimes misjudge their importance.
Guys, ignore the hardcore deniers, it’s a waste of time and energy. They will see the error of their ways soon enough.
phantomstrife,
Will we be killing them soon ?
For the Watch and all that jazz ?
The other thing is that what GRRM is doing is much closer to a typical novel: the story is driven completely by how characters evolve. This in itself is going to result in clashes with standard fantasy troupes, where the story tends to be driven by plot.
To throw away 4 stories of character development would mean little to most fantasy series: none of evolutionary trajectories of the characters are that important in the first place, and apotheosizing characters is hardly too uncommon. Jon has to be Jon in the same way that a modern elephant has to be an elephant just like Miocene elephants were. The same elephant? No. But an elephant, not a hippo or a rhino. (And, no: not Ganesha, either. 😀 )
The other thing with Stannis in particular is that he did not become a main character on the TV series until the 5th series: at which point it was much too late for him to become a character that could help carry the “superstory” of the whole series. Never minding that Stannis is a static character (he’s basically a “living fossil” in the analogy above), but we do not see Series 1-> Series 2-> Series 3 etc. evolution from him. And, of course, as you note, Stannis is never even a PoV character in the books, never mind a protagonist.
In theory, Robb could have become one of those characters, at least on TV. (Again, he couldn’t in the book because he was never even a PoV character, much less a protagonist.) However, he didn’t make it out of the first act. Using faux protagonists in the first portion of a story is not an uncommon practice: but usually that is sorted out by the 2nd portion of the story. Well, we’ve just finished that. (Of course, this represents an odd case where the protagonists of the early stories are faux protagonists for the over-arching story!)
She is not very blonde, though.
Dany has less plot armor than Jon. Jon has the secret birth trope, the secret true heir trope, the saved and raised by your relative who is not your actual parent trope, the relative hides your true identity trope, the outasted black sheep of the family trope, the betrayed trope, the rebirth trope, and probably the one true hero trope. Also another often overlooked thing about Dany’s importance to the story is the fact that GRRM had to be convinced to even include dragons in the first place. He was going to exclude them, and although plots change, it does suggest Dany may not be as safe as some think she is to the conclusion of the story.
Another thing going against Dany is I doubt her dragons are alive at the end of the story. It depends on how you think will end. Will this story end with magic now 100% returned and never going away? If so than her dragons survive. But if magic is to be eradicated and the ice magic of the Others driven away and the glamoring and resurrections ended…than her dragons are toast. They’re fire magic, and they have to go in that scenario too. And with no dragons, Dany’s arc is complete.
Wimsey,
She is not very wrinkly, either.
Matthew The Dragon Knight,
For The Jon
http://imgur.com/9EbyjvK
So GRRM spends two decades writing a series without a main protagonist and killing off ones the audience might think are the protagonists and yet you STILL think Jon Snow is one of principle protagonists?
In any event, Jon Snow is dead. He will not come back. The body and maybe even mind that once occupied Jon Snow will probably walk and talk again… but not as Jon Snow. Everything GRRM has said in the books suggests a person resurrected doesn’t come back as their old self. Why would anyone think Jon Snow would return as himself? Lady Stoneheart didn’t.
Wimsey,
There’s a running theory that Mel’s a daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar (who were both Blackfyres) and that Mel’s hair is actually silvery blonde but she dyes it red. Martin did say Westeros is more advanced when it comes to hair colouring than the medieval times were. We have had Sansa, Young Griff, Daario, Old Griff and many others colour their hair for various reasons.
Now this might be false and Mel’s of Valyrian descent but is much much older.
Jon Stark is in the battle of Winterfell vs Ramsay,we have the photo …Kit is adorable but Kit does not tell the truth, these interviews are under the control of HBO, we know,Kit can say that he is alive? No, Kits can say that resurrects and fights a great battle? No, and then …Have you seen the face of kit the dead man? His eyes unfocused …Jon Stark is in the battle of Winterfell vs Ramsay,we have the photo …Kit is adorable but Kit does not tell the truth, these interviews are under the control of HBO, we know,Kit can say that he is alive? No, Kits can say that resurrects and fights a great battle? No, and then …Have you seen the face of kit the dead man? His eyes unfocused
Nathanbc22,
But what if this is just a Bran vision? 🙁
I want Jon to come back as much as anyone, but Kit and Carice are making me worry!
Rachel,
The photo is from the filming of Bastardbowl from Episode 9. The battle everyone and their dog has been raving about. People need to stop with with that vision nonsense. We’re not suddenly getting an abundance of those. The few visions we will get will have a point in the progressing plot and be connected to the arcs of living characters. We will see young Ned, Benjen, Lyanna to set up ToJ. Young Hodor to shed light on his background and why he is the way he is. Then we will see slightly older Ned and Lyanna (+others) at TOJ which will likely contain the confirmation of the most popular theory regarding a certain character. Possibly a vision of the White Walkers to provide more insight into their race. And that’s it. Any more would just be overkill, especially given that the show hasn’t been big on them before. Any vision of Jon would be bloody pointless if he were gone for good. What purpose would it serve?
Kit Hairyton,
Yes, for British people and for the ones who studied them. I’m not a native speaker and no Henry Higgins, so in England I can distinguish only the posh one and the “uneducated one”, but, as I said, in my memory they are linked to British humour, so I find them delightful. Plus, I sort of recognize if there’s a Scottish or an Irish person speaking and I like them as well, because I admire their cultures.
When it comes to a certain type of ol’ ladies like in this case – well you better believe em in Westeros. And she is very close to the facts (unlike other narrators). So I expect no surprises here. And I doubt it is solved in the books anyway. Maybe Bran figueres it out, but my best guess is it won’t be revealed any further.
GeekFurious,
It’s kind of semantics once you get that deep. LSH is very different than even Beric Dondarrion and I’m not sure if she’s half decent comparison or example to use. She can’t talk and her last memories are of the rest of her surviving family all being brutally murdered in front of her before she went insane in the minutes before she died. If anything she carried over that insanity into her LSH persona, and she still carries the anger and despair from her pre-resurrection life, which is her motivation to do the things she’s doing. I would guess that she would have a very similar personality and motivation even if she had somehow survived the massacre. She would be crazy and vengeful, minus looking really gross and wicked.
Beric, on the other hand, was resurrected 6 times, and is still fairly normal and decent guy. He was always resurrected just after he was killed though and hasn’t had to live through the tragedy that LSH did before her resurrection. He says that he loses a little bit of himself after each death/resurrection, which I don’t think at all translates to being a totally different person who only shares the same body and some memories as the former occupant of said body. If some other entity were occupying their bodies besides their former selves, then they wouldn’t continue with the same motivations and actions that they had before resurrection. LSH wouldn’t care about Frey’s and Beric wouldn’t care about the BWOB or their mission.
The show version of Beric in particular gives us a hint that even if Jons personality and motivations are slightly changed, it’s not going to be some monstrous change where people are saying Jon Snow is a completely different person. Especially since he would have only been resurrected one time. I don’t know if “losing a bit of yourself” after a resurrection is the semantic that Kit and others are using to avoid outright lying. I think that they are just lying.
My goodness, I hope I don’t have to go through another period of mourning for Jon Snow. I knew the scene was coming and was still devastated to see it, and the weeks following episode 10 were horrible. Yes, I know it’s a show and JS is fictional, blah blah, but it was real sadness and outrage, nonetheless. I didn’t feel near right again until this wonderful site reported seeing Kit filming. Now, I’m a bit flustered again. April 24 can’t come soon enough.
A bit off-topic, but I saw the movie “Pompei” on tv last night, and I don’t understand the less than stellar ratings it got. It certainly wasn’t the worst movie I’ve ever seen – and I thought Kit’s portrayal of Milo the Gladiator was excellent. He’s exceptional and I hope his theatre run is very successful. I can only wish him all the best. I also hope he and Rose make a great go of it, especially since it’s been announced officially that they are a couple.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
Amen. 250 plus emails and counting … covering the same ground again and again and again
Ghost,
I feel exactly the same, even with all the evidence we have, I just don’t know anymore…
Maybe that pic doesn’t really mean what we think, but it does mean something. I just hope the answer isn’t as simplistic as ”he’s dead, move on”, cause that just can’t be done, not after all those hints and teasers in the books and show, plus the wall storyline would die with Jon. And even if (though i don’t think they will, well, George won’t, anyways) choose to do that, it better be more than just for the sake of being unpredictable.
Sorry if someone’s said this already and I missed it, but if
I’m sorry, but this is not a “theory”: it is not even a conjecture: this is fan-fiction. We have zero evidence that GRRM imagines anything like this: that is, there is nothing given in the texts or on the show or even in GRRM’s comments that support this, and certainly no “If Melisandre were a blonde, then we would see X” statements where we can point to a lot of X’s. We cannot point to a single X here!
Again, this is why it is a really bad idea for people to start inserting their imaginations into other people’s works. GRRM provides us with what he imagines, and with evidence for things that he is imagining but has not yet made explicit. When we have to start imagining details to make ideas work, then scrap the idea and go back to square one.
Lulus Mum,
The “glamour” idea does not need to be put into spoilers: it’s not from the books, and it’s not leaked. We have no indication in the books that anything like this sort of glamouring exists.
But as for the “Mel will be really old in a mirror and this will be a huge effect” idea, it would not be. The show Merlin, which had a much lower budget, did this routinely and there was nothing special about it: periodically someone would look in a mirror and notice that a sorcerer was much older/younger looking than he/she appeared in person.
That written, we’ve seen Mel in a mirror before, I think: and she looked the same.
Um, he’s spent 20 years writing this around 5 principle protagonists. It is possible that Sansa gets onto the list and makes it 6, but her omission from the Crows/Dragons story (and, no, 3 cameo chapters of continued stasis did not get her into the story) makes that seem doubtful. And, yes, Jon is one of them. It really shouldn’t be too hard to get!
As for his return, he will be Jon, but modified by the experience. Oh, they probably will do something where he’s got gaps in his memories for a while – that is common enough in stories where people undergo major traumas or comas or the like, and also not unrealistic – but something will happen (perhaps he’ll start warging and Ghost’s memories of Jon will jog Jon’s memories of himself) and he’ll be back.
The LSH comparison is not a good one: she had been dead for days. Jon will probably be out for only a few hours. And the Beric comparison is not a good one: Jon will probably have this happen only once.
This is not to say that Jon won’t be changed: but Daeny will be changed by what is happening to her, as will Arya and Tyrion. The change creates the story: but it must be continuous change; metamorphosis would disrupt the story.
Well, that is my problem with the glamour idea: it’s very unparsimonious. If Mel is ancient, then there is no reason why should look ancient: if you want to be immortal, then stop aging. Why not simply go with the second most parsimonious idea: she’s eternally young?
Of course, the evidence that Mel is old is very tenuous – it’s just a couple of lines in the book that can be read either way – and it might be just people associating “steeped in magic” with “ageless.” The most parsimonious idea is that she’s just fairly young but very experienced: and I would not be surprised if that turns out to be true.
After reading the whole comment section, here is what I got:
1. Very small handful (3 or 4?) posters think that Jon is dead and that it is, or it doesn’t really matter in the big picture what he might come back as, but it ain’t Jon Snow. Get over it.
2. A few now are very concerned about what they thought to be the truth of JS most certainly coming back, one way or the other. Now they doubt…maybe a half dozen or better?
3. All the rest think it is all smoke and mirrors and do believe he will be back….period. And from there build huge possibilities of what might be based on any new or existing information.
Looks like all the coon dogs are pretty much barking up the same tree. That said, Martin is the master of bittersweet. I would find it bittersweet if Jon never knows who his real parents are. As I recall (correct me if I am wrong) Bran is seeing the ToJ segment, maybe as something that BR is showing him with the line of “and now he will never know” sort of thing. That would be bittersweet.
Bran also see’s in the past, present and future….so him in a possible future vision where JS is “wearing Stark outfit” I guess could happen. And in ten hours of episodes…having 3 or 4 Bran “visions” is NOT that unbelievable as THAT IS WHAT HE DOES.
Wimsey,
Hi Wimsey
No idea if it’s going to happen, it just struck me as a possibility when people were talking about appearance.
JCDavis Hey JC *waves* If you’re counting, I’m a 3 and always have been. I’m about as certain as it’s possible to be without actually seeing it. The reason we’re not getting the episode titles yet, I like to think, is become one of them is Heeeeeeeeeere’s Johnny!! 😀
JCDavis,
*continued from my previous post* In fact I hope they all are along those lines…..Guess who’s coming to back from the dead?; Ooh you’ll never guess what’s been happening at Castle Black!; Surprise, it’s me again!; Hang on, I thought you were dead? etc 😀
Lulus Mum,
* because not become 🙁
Hey Madre de Lulu *waves back*
I am in the same #3 category actually. It is just too hard to think that they have spent all this time on JS being the end game “ice” with Daenerys being the “fire”, that I feel the time is too short to all of a sudden make that some other two random charries. Of course in the world of GoT’s anything is possible. Hope all is well over there!!
Lulus Mum,
Ah, yes: she does that. However, that is very different from what is being discussed. In the book,
What is being discussed here is the classic “old crone makes herself look young crone unless you see her in the mirror” deal. So, it’s making yourself look like yourself: but as you were, not as you are.
(It also is not visually spectacular: as I noted, Merlin did it 4 or 5 times.)
What makes this overly complex is that we need magic to keep someone alive despite being decrepit beyond belief, and then magic to make them look young. Add to this that we need magic to make them act young, too: giving a 90 year old extensive plastic surgery, new hair, etc., would not let them be as spry as they were at 30!
What is much the simpler model is that Ancient Mel has found a way to stay eternally (or for an extremely prolonged time) youthful. If you don’t age, then you do not die of old age. So, you have the old age, the youthful appearance, the youthful vigor, etc., all in one fell swoop instead of requiring three separate explanations. (This is what Occam meant by never multiply explanations: if you can explain it with one thing, then prefer that to explaining it with three things.)
Of course, the most parsimonious explanation of all is that Mel is fairly young: that explains everything without invoking any magic at all.!
Wimsey,
Well there’s this as well (for what it’s worth):
Carice: She definitely has certain powers. I don’t how old she is, but she’s way over 100 years, so she is a wiser spirit, in a way, but it’s difficult for me to say too much because A — we want it to at least stay sort of a mystery and B — I didn’t read the books (laughs).
I thought I recall from an interview I read several years ago that someone on the production team told Carice that Mel was over 100 but I could not locate that.
Connor,
I think he’s coming back as some sort of Wight
Please lets stop discussing Jon now. If he’s fooled even a portion of the WOTW fandom, he’s more than done his job. Well done HBO and Kit.
I’m more worried about Mel.
” Cunningham: The first episode, the kick-off with her [points to Carice Van Houten], is astonishing.
Houten: Yes…! But it’s not what you think it is, it’s something else. I knew it was coming at some point, people had talked about it before to me, but I wasn’t sure when it was going to happen… oh, this is really vague… but it should be. And it’s in Episode 1 already. ”
This really really really seems like Melisandre is dying episode 1, possibly pulling off a Nissa Nissa.
JCDavis,
Total side note: I recently listened to “The Next Day” for the first time since I bought it in 3 or so years ago. Damn! That’s a good album!
Darkrobin,
Ah, if that was said, then the simplest remaining model is that R’hllor’s gifts have let Mel stay young: that explains everything at once. As I noted, I seem to recall one or two hints in the books that she’s pretty old: but I also seem to recall that those one or two hints were pretty equivocal, too. (I don’t even remember what they were off the top of my head!)
It really does not. There are dozens and dozens of other things that could justify that statement.
My theory? “Kill the boy” (Jon Snow)…JS is dead and not coming back. However, Kit Harrington is coming back – most likely as Jon Stark-Targaryan. There won’t be magic involved, but a long recuperation during which Snow is declared officially dead and technically off the hook (not be executed) for having renounced his vows for “taking the Black.” This opens up the epic battle in the snow for Winterfell. And so, the actor Kit wouldn’t have been lying to us all along – he may be done with the show after having completed Season 6, but for viewers he’s not done quite yet.
Tommen’s objective will be to escape his mother. He’ll either take the Black or even turn baddass and lead the battle against the Boltons and/or White Walkers.
Demonmonkey,
I think Mel is going to sacrifice herself – that’s what Carice was alluding to. She realizes to resurrect Jon Snow she will have to die.
Well if that’s the case, I want some of whatever concoction she’s downing, because that is a good-looking 100 year old.
And after I read this, I realized it sounded as though I believed Carice was 100. If I thought that was the case, I’d have a cadre of lawyers pursuing her to get the rights to the potion, not fooling around on a website/
Wimsey,
You are correct. I went back and looked at them from Mel’s POV chapter
“Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count …”
Then there are the enigmatic coments “Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R’hllor provided all the norishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal man.” “The fire was inside her … searing her, transforming her.”
I also noticed that when she seems Bloodraven (wooden face, corpse white (albino), a thousand red eyes) and Bran (a boy with a wolf’s face) she thinks “He sees me.” As the Night’s King can “see/touch” Bran in his visions?
One interesting book/show difference – in the books Mel never met Thoros and still believes that “Only dealth can pay for life … A great gift requires a great sacrifice.” As we “know” from D&D that Shireen will be burned by Mel in the books, but as of the end of ADWD she’s alive at Castle Black and Jon is presumably dead, I cannot help to wonder if a book resurrection might differ from a show resurrection, assuming that one occurs. I guess that in a couple of months/years we may find out.
Thronetender,
So true.
Jon Snow has to be dead – that is the only way for him to no longer be a “Man of the nights watch”. Kit – in my opinion – confirmed that when he said “you will be relieved” – relieved that he is now released from the nights watch (murders that they are) because “only death can release you” “and now his watch has ended”. He is an honorable man – so its the only way he could honorably leave is by death – and if they are in fact showing the “tower of joy” to reveal his parents …. if he is truly dead – dead – dead ….. then that would be completely pointless waste of good “story time” for something else. Remember – the only way they would allow HBO to make this into a series is if they answered who Jon’s parents were – if Jon isn’t coming back in some form….. that also would be pointless – why would it have been so important? The book is “A Song of Fire and Ice” – Jon is fire and ice –
Kit knows full well how upset everyone will be if he is truly dead and never to return to the show – so the only way for us to be relieved……is if he comes back in some form.
That’s my opinion ….
Darkrobin,
I am betting that it is Selyse in the book. On the series, she basically agreed to take Shireen only after Mel shows Selyse that R’hllor will need Shireen. So, it was with the mother’s consent all along. My be is that she ill do this
and thus converge on the show!
As for Mel, given that er have indications that she is well-steeped in the lore and arcana of her church, my bet is that she will know that R’hllor has done this in the past even if she knows nothing of Thoros. Or she could see Thoros in her fires, and get the idea that way.
But until I see a gun fired with a trigger fired by squeezing the handle, I always bet on the next firing using the trigger!
That stated, I will be surprised to read it anytime soon. My guess is that watching it on tv is going to cause GRRM to rewrite quite a bit. After all, there no longer is anything like a deadline!
KatB,
Your opinion is predicated on the assumption that this is all about getting Jon out of his vows AND that Jon will see it as an “out.” However, Jon is not the sort to look for loopholes: and given his skeptical nature, he might doubt that he ever was dead.
The other problem is that this will not release him from his vows in the eyes of others. “I was dead, but I got better” would only go down as one of the most creative excuses offered by a deserting Crow ere they nicked off his head.
Wimsey,
That is definitely a thought…..will have to roll that one around for a while!
If not though – what do you think would be the reason for the importance of his linage in that George Martin wouldn’t agree with HBO until they correctly guessed his linage – and if they are in fact showing “the tower of joy” – what do you feel would be the purpose?
Thank you for your response!
Yes, while this releasing from his vows through Death serves us – the viewers – in a symbolic way, it has no true value inside the narrative and Jon will really have to find his way out of it. But it shouldn’t be any hard as season 6 will probably be the season where the whole Nightwatch suffers its demise.
Here’s the scene between Melisandre and Selyse, where the illusions and tricks are alluded to, and much more is hinted in advance (just re-watched the episode today and found it very nice). Warning – NSFW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1r03wst_8
I’m not 100% sure if we know just how human Mel is at this point? After all, in the book she needs to remind herself to eat in front of people, since apparently she doesn’t need to eat; she barely needs any sleep, and her blood is black…
red,
I don’t know why some people say that Dany’s dragons aren’t as important because George wasn’t going to initially include them. Do you guys know that instead of dragons, George was just going to give the Targaryen’s actual fire-manipulating ability? Instead of making the Targaryens themselves have fire magic ability, he made them have dragons with the fire magic ability. And he also said that Dany was a fully realized character with a near complete arc in his mind since 1991. That’s way before his 1993 outline where some of the characters as we know today are very different. So any way you slice it, Dany was always going to be an important character with an important arc, whether her magic came from herself or from her dragons.
Wimsey,
I agree w KatB that NW is at an end anyway. And they tried to kill him. And succeeded. They don’t want him. Also we may need to consider tha he will be different. If Beric only remembers his mission than Jons mission is to save the ppl. Maybe loyal to the NW.
Nathanbc22,
Haven’t seen the word shite in a good while now ha love it are you irish
KatB,
Oh, I think that Jon is Rhaegar’s son: but I think that it’s for something quite different. Jon son of Rhaegar would have given Ned Stark a “what is the least of all evils” set of choices. Any son of Rhaegar was a doomed child: Robert would kill any bastard of Rhaegar’s for political, dynastic and personal reasons.
So, if Jon is Rhaegar’s son, then Ned had to lie to protect him: and that is a huge compromise of Ned’s values. Moreover, he had to foster the idea that he had fathered a bastard: and although that’s not a huge deal to many, it seems to have been to Ned. (Particularly given that it had to look like he cheated on his wife: again, something that Ned took seriously even if others did not.) Moreover, Ned had to lie to his wife, to his friend Robert, and to everyone else: and he had to continue to maintain the lie even though it meant suffering for Jon from Cat.
To top it off, it probably galled Ned that his lie covered his sister’s dishonor (assuming that she willingly eloped with Rhaegar) on one hand, but also that so many people died under false pretenses. However, he never could reveal this because this truth would be a huge stain on his House, and thus a huge dishonor for him because the First Commandment among Westerosi nobles is: Thou Shalt Do Anything and Everything to Better Your House.
Jon is going to face the same choice. Oh, he already has to an extent: he knew that he would be branded a traitor by many for letting the Wildlings through; however, he also convinced himself that he was actually sticking to his vows. Come the big crunch, it’s going to be something bigger: and Jon is going to have to choose between one dishonorable choice and a more dishonorable choice. Part of the choosing will be: is A or B actually more dishonorable? At that time, I am betting that the fact that he is there because one person put one baby boy ahead of other things is going to be huge.
That’s my prediction, anyway: at least about why the Tower of Joy will be important! (My thought on why Jon being revived by R’hllor is going to be important is that this will give him a personal taste of R’hllor: and understanding R’hllor probably is going to be as important as understanding the White Walkers at the zenith of it all.)
Ah, but if you said them in the “uneducated” accent (Soho, I think 😉 ), then we’d: 1) not understand a word you said, but, 2) think it sounds absolutely hysterical!
Besides, you’d be in a football riot before you’d finish criticizing, right?
😀
We do not know that the NW is at an end. Indeed, many people here think that Jon is going to quickly take back the NW from the Nationalists, and that this will be a hiccup in the grand scheme of things.
However, the important issue is: does Jon’s revival get him out of his NW vows in the minds of Westerosi lords? My thought is: no. For one thing, obviously Jon did not die: dead people do not stand there talking to you. Even if Jon accepts that he was brought back, and even if a dozen Wildlings and a Red Demon priestess agree that it’s true, nobody is going to believe them. (I mean, that’s not exactly a credible set of witnesses, anyway!)
Instead, it simply will be viewed as one of the most creative lies ever told by a deserter. But, heck, when circumstances lead the Northern Lords to get together, then they probably trade stories about the craziest lies that they ever got before nicking off a head! 😉
Excuse me …..but having thought about this at length……..and after reading all the books and watching every show…..i cant help but go back to series 1 episode 1…..to the scene where jon snow goes back to find ghost….that one moment tells me that the person the whole world knows as jon snow will never die. whatever u feel u need to write in here wont make a bit of difference….its why this show is so popular……its what everyone wants
Brandon,
It enhances the sense of irony. And tragedy.
https://twitter.com/GoTDanyfan/status/716632424839516160
Through the revelation, the audience gets an answer to their burning question(s), while the hero involved is ultimately left unable to act on that information.
I’m not saying that this is what’s GOING to happen, just that it is not completely unprecedented in terms of dramatic storytelling.
Wimsey,
Indeed, I was referring to Soho and its inhabitant, Eliza Doolittle! I thought it was clear what I meant because I used “”, I mentioned Henry Higgins and I admitted that, unlike him, I had no knowledge of British accents. Unfortunately, only you understood what I had in mind.
Ghost,
I used to be one of the people who thought for sure “Jon has to find out about his parentage” but lately I’m thinking No, he really doesn’t. We just badly want him to is all.
But… “George added the mystery for a reason otherwise it’s just meaningless.” Not exactly. Only if he never tells us. On top of enhancing the feeling of irony/tragedy, which we all know is something the writer hasn’t shied away from, it serves to build the character as a more interesting and sympathetic figure in our eyes. Look at Ned, he tried to do good, do the right things, yet met his end abruptly, with still much unfinished business at hand, including never having been able to TELL Jon about his mother. (Spider you @#$.)
That said, I would hate it, so I hope that’s not the case 🙂
Shy Lady Dragon,
Good morning to you Shy Lady 🙂 In regular conversation I don’t find accent funny, but I know the delivery of a joke can be enhanced by it. I’ve always enjoyed the sound of it, especially the so-called “posh” one (Rose Leslie for instance) or the one Kit uses for Jon (northern English?) But that one is more subtle and doesn’t sound all that different from ours over here.
Ygritte,
Hi, Ygritte! It’s interesting that the language spoken in New England sounds resemblant to the one used by the character Jon.
I was referring to comedy when I said an accent can be funny, because it can make the character appear more colourful.
Shy Lady Dragon,
Well, I’m originally from the Midwest. But I can’t detect much difference in accent from this region except for perhaps in the boroughs. I just thought of Robb’s smooth Scottish accent … back in the first couple of seasons I was thinking how pleasing to the ears it was, and that if Jon had Robb’s voice it would be perfect lol. But then I came to prefer the resonance of Jon’s.
Wimsey,
Won’t Jon’s chest/torso look pretty ridiculously messed up after being stabbed that many times? Especially that last one in the heart? Like Berric Dondarrion’s mortal wounds looked? Where upon a closer look, it was clear Berric should not have survived these injuries? Maybe he’ll have to walk around with his shirt off 1/2 the season to prove it to the disbelievers….? Heh heh..
Firannion,
Thanks for the spoiler going to see hamlet for the first time tomorrow ha ha
If Jon were really dead and gone (and completely out of the show for good), what was the point of building up his story for 5 seasons (and 5 books!), always giving hints that he was destined to have a pivotal role in the war against the Others? And what is now the point of revealing his true parentage if he’s dead and cannot come back in any relevant way for the new plot lines? Had D&D truly decided to cut him out, then they would really have stepped out of the line, and their decision could only be traced back to the selfish will of continuosly shocking the viewers (but the show and, most of all, the books are more than just entertainment)… so, logic leads us to believe that Jon must be back in one way or another, for he has still a part to play in the wars to come! Can’t wait for S6 to begin!