The latest ratings are in, courtesy of Variety, and it looks like House of the Dragon is holding on strong (pardon the house pun) in its fifth week out.
According to Variety, episode 5 brought in 3% more viewers than Episode 4, using a combination of Nielsen figures and streaming numbers from Sunday night from HBO/HBOMax platforms. We’re still waiting to hear the total numbers of viewers from all platforms.
When isolating linear viewership, according to Nielsen, 2.576 million people tuned into the episode on HBO itself, a 4% increase when compared to last week’s 2.474 million cable viewers.
They also report that season 1 of the show is averaging “29 million viewers per episode across its first five episodes.”
Halfway through the first season, this is where we would logically see a plateau point; fans know what they’re getting and whether or not they want it. It’s nice to see HOTD grow at a healthy pace, with a developing fandom. While the numbers are fun to follow, they don’t always tell the complete tale. More telling than the straightforward numbers, to me, is the consistent engagement of fans online with the spinoff. It’s not at the level of Game of Thrones season 8, no, but it’s already at a massive level for a new show. And it will be fun to see the pirating figures once those come out!
I’m definitely getting more and more interested each episode.
I don’t rush home to watch it yet though. With GOT I had to see it live and i anxiously waited during the day for the next episode. I would often watch them a second time to see what I missed. With HotD, I usually watch one or two days later. I haven’t watched an episode twice yet, but I did fall asleep at the end of one of the episodes and went back to watch it again! I don’t think that’s a reflection on the show as much as I’ve been more tired working multiple jobs. I watched the synopsis of a previous episode and I realized I never saw one of those scenes!
The shock value in recent episodes is helping keep me more interested. The shock is usually supplied by Daemon. I find myself connecting with the characters. I thought Otto’s scene with Alicent when he tells her she better choose was his best scene yet. That was the first time I admired his character. He just saw things the way the world really worked. It will be interesting to see what happens in episode 6 as the cast changes.
I used to cover TV ratings back in the day so I became pretty good at predicting what a show would do over time. HOTD’s numbers are wild because the vast vast majority of shows just don’t do this, especially if they start high. You are much more likely to see a week-to-week rise for a show with initially low ratings but that catches interest and grows. But a show that starts high almost always drops the following week & MAYBE slows the drop over the next few weeks, then settles into a comfortable number for the first season. HOTD started high & keeps getting higher.
At some point it has to slow down because HBO is running out of subscribers to count.
Tron79:
We’ll likely get more addicted to the show as it goes on. I feel the same as you (I remember waking at 5am and watching BotB, and the same for The Long Night). I’ve never experienced tv I had to watch the moment I awoke before! It seems there will be more personal stories in the second half of the season, with the younger characters coming in, so hopefully we’ll start to bond a lot more with them all. It’s been fairly politically dense, so far! (Not a complaint!)
House of the Dragon doing much better than Better Call Saul, prequel to the show whose ending “everyone loved” is another proof that S8 “backlash” was just abuse of vocal minority that we had to suffer for 3 years
mau,
Totally! The “backlash” narrative seemed kind of media driven as well and it became a thing to not like the final season and to complain. The whole “nobody cares” thing was always funny to me, given the piracy numbers and the viewing figures in the years following the end of GOT.
They are nailing it with HOTD and there is clearly an interest in Westeros!
🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥
They hooked me in with a strong premiere and every episode thus far has delivered.
I do not understand what you are saying.
What do the ratings of Better Call Saul have to do with HotD? Isn’t that comparing apples and oranges? How does comparing the ratings of HotD to those of BCS prove that the response to S8 of GoT was “abuse of vocal minority”?
Was the “vocal minority” being abused, and if so, how was it being abused?
I don’t see the causal connection between the public responses to Better Caul Saul, GoT S8, and HotD S1. I don’t understand how HotD getting better ratings than BCS proves or disproves anything about the “backlash” to GoT S8, or how the abused or the abuser was comprised of a “vocal minority” of GoT watchers.
All in all, HotD’s positive reception in 2022 doesn’t prove that GoT S8 in 2019 didn’t suck.
If anything, the GoT/HotD common viewership’s favorable reaction to HotD could demonstrate that their dislike of GoT S8 wasn’t held by or caused by a “minority.”
I may have misunderstood what you wrote. Can you clarify?
GeekFurious,
”I used to cover TV ratings back in the day so I became pretty good at predicting what a show would do over time.”
Well then, oh GeekFurious the Mage, what is your prediction for the future of HotD?
P.S. Any forecasts about the potential for success of other spin-offs, like the the Snow Show? Or a hypothetical Arya sequel?
Ten Bears,
Success of HOTD proves that backlash never existed in reality. First few episodes did well because of GOT brand power that wasn’t damaged at all by fake backlash of vocal minority.
People stayed with HOTD because they like what they are seeing, they watched first few episodes because they loved GOT.
Success that original show still has on HBO MAX proves that it was all just performative outrage of small % of fanatics and grifters and inevitable success of Snow sequel will further demonstate that “backlash” was just social media delusion.
Caraxes, First of His Name,
As Conleth Hill said it was media lead hate campaign.
Just like fake narrative that no one cares about Avatar. In a few months Avatar 2 will become the biggest movie of all time.
Social media and fandoms aren’t reality. Game of Thrones was always popular, it was always doing well, years after it ended. BR and DVD sales for S8 did amazing, they earned more than almost any season of GoT before. Not to mention all awards and records that final season broke.
We always knew it was all just social media phenomenon. Casey Bloys said the same thing. It was just social media backlash that never existed in real life.
Ongoing success of the original show, of its prequel and inevitable success of sequel that will directly build on the conclusion of the original show are undeniable.
Everyone had their own subjective opinion, but numbers don’t lie. Objectively GOT is indestructible.
The funny thing is, I’m one of the people who liked the ending of GOT, and yet, I keep seeing people propose alternatives that I can’t help thinking would have been better… XD
Malcolm Ferguson,
I never piled on the hate for GoT the way some did – I’ve explained before I’ve thought the two Ds were in a difficult position with TWOW and ADOS not having been printed. I realise that a lot of people didn’t like the ending though, so I won’t deny that there was a backlash among some of the fandom. I’m not a great follower of Reddit though I do sometimes watch short videos on YouTube about subs like “I don’t work here lady” but I believe there are still some folk who complain about GOT’s finish three years and more after the last episode was aired.
Any efforts I’ve seen by people to improve the ending of GOT have made me cringe though.
mau,
Just inputting my own point of view, can’t guarantee it’s how most people think, but I do think a lot may agree.
I am one of those people who absolutely hated the final season and ending of GOT. But I loved the show so much in the beginning and just had to see it through. There’s something about being so in love and invested in a story and characters and lore that makes it hard to give up on, and even when you finally recognise that it’s no longer the same as the story you had fallen in love with, it’s still hard to let go. (I believe the same can be said of human relationships). My boyfriend himself experienced the same with Star Wars, where he felt betrayed by the sequel trilogy, but he grew up so in love with that universe, he had to see the final movie because it was something he needed to do despite having lost faith in it already.
For HotD, I had no idea what to expect. Knowing that the general skeleton and direction of the story was already complete, and that GRRM was more involved than he was in the later seasons of GOT, helped restore some faith, but I was still apprehensive. Due to my love of the universe, however, I was still committed to seeing it, and as the show has progressed, I’m enjoying it as much as I was enjoying the first few seasons of GOT. How GOT ended did not affect my love of the source material, first few seasons, or overall universe, and Martin’s way of crafting characters.
Hopefully this response will give a bit more nuance to the “backlash” that you claim is mostly fabricated.
I really love this guy’s attempt to rewrite it. He dedicates a whole video to each character and how he would rewrite their stories. I obviously don’t share his seething hatred for the ending (and the last few seasons in general), and am much more sympathetic to the situation D&D were put in, but in general, I actually kind of prefer his version to the one we got.
Regardless of how polarized, disliked, liked or controversial the ending was to people, the internet/media-led “Nobody cares about GoT anymore… fandom was wiped out” etc. is obviously bullsh*t. Ironically those statements came from those who were raging about GoT final seasons years after it finished so what would they say for themselves then because raging years after is certainly not “moving on”? Remember that for example season 6 and season 7 were LOVED when they came out (at least by mainstream impression). GoT fandom was at its peaks during those seasons, S6 scored some of the best IMDB ratings, everyone was so expecting season 8 but if you go read the comments now, it’s like season 7 was completely hated and season 6 was already way past the show’s prime. So in my opinion, the internet impression is not always reliable how disliked or liked something is and certainly not how much certain popular TV show/film/novel is still imprinted in fandom.
Going a bit off-topic, if you think complaining about GoT ending after 3 years is bad (and yes, it makes me roll eyes a lot that people still do so), what would you say that for example, people still not only complain, but RAGE about the ending of LOST on its FB page whole 12 YEARS after the show has finished? Going to read comments there makes it seem everyone hates it…and yet I know from admining a LOST group in 2017-2020, that reached 20k+ people at its peak (and was created years after the TV show finished), that it’s far from truth… there were a whole bunch of people who were and still are big fans of LOST all way through and in this group, the LOST finale was actually one of the most popular episodes, even winning the overall episode elimination contest in 2018 that I used to host and scoring third in 2017. And you know what majority of members said when they joined that community? Statements like “I’m so glad I found this group.. I love that I’m not alone in my love for LOST… I’m so glad I found a place to discuss LOST because I thought everyone hated it… I can’t believe so many people are still so passionately talking about LOST so many years later….”.
So… two different worlds between official page and a FB group when it came to LOST. What’s the “actual” mainstream situation regarding LOST? We don’t actually know because we don’t know how many people just “went underground” and never participated online and how many of these loved it or disliked it, how many are still passionate to discuss it etc. With GoT, I feel we’re in similar position… while I’m sure it definitely polarized the fans, its impact and fandom obviously wasn’t wiped out. We obviously see that many people are tuning in for HotD, there are several Youtubers watching it for first time these months, Quora is active with GoT-related questions and the answers there are well-structured and not some blind-hatred… I for example know several people from my private life (and I’m not someone who hangs out a lot) who were firmly satisfied with the GoT ending… so
So wrapping this up, I don’t think internet/media response is giving us the actual picture regarding “dead fandom” and attitude people may have towards show. It points out “ABSOLUTELY LOVED IT/I WASTED 8 YEARS OF MY LIFE” reactions but I’m sure there’s still a whole bunch of unaccounted reactions that include from “Meh” to “It was okay” and even those who absolutely loved it or absolutely disliked it may hold their opinion in privacy so I don’t think we actually know what the real picture is.
End of my ramble.
mau,
The backlash was very real. I really hated and still hate the last 4 episodes of GOT. But since I loved all the episodes before, I gave House of The Dragon a chance. House of The Dragon is not perfect, I miss a lot of things concerning character motivations, and even just knowing who is who etc. But nevertheless it is still better than the last season of GOT.
Pointy End,
I absolutely agree with you. I feel exactly the same.
I didn’t like S7 or S8, but I’m watching HotD because I love ASOIAF. I’m not too invested in it though, it’s fine, but not as good as GOT. I always knew that HotD would do well, people claimed that they were done with GOT and they tuned in anyway (that was performative). Partly because of GRRM’s involvement, I mean, it’s a different show after all. You’re not supporting S8 by watching HotD, in fact, some people are overpraising HotD because it has different show runners and GRRM is involved. Take GRRM out of the equation and I guarantee people would be more critical. The man can do no wrong in some corners of the fandom. Whatever the reaction to S8, it didn’t hurt the GOT brand, that much is crystal clear. I don’t think that the backlash was fake, S8 was divisive, millions of people still enjoyed it so who cares?
What’s really interesting to me, given the increasing viewership is how HOTD will continue… as an anthology or just as the show telling the story of the Dance in 3-4 seasons. I really hope they go the anthology route and continue telling the Targaryen story with some time skips up until Robert’s Rebellion. Even time skips backwards in time, like the Conquest would be fine by me even though it might be a bit strange from a linear perspective. Condal clearly has a great love of the material which is great so I’m very exited about what they do in the future!
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
You sure do like to bring up that Lost Facebook group any chance you get.
Anyway, why does it even matter whether other people liked the ending to a particular show or not? Some loved it, some hated it, and everything in between. There’s no point in these stupid internet campaigns to try and control the narrative one way or the other. Complaining about the ending for 3 years is just as dumb as complaining about the people complaining for 3 years. I really don’t understand why people care so much about other people’s opinions about a fictional show. All that matters is that you liked it.
Same for me, 100% 🙂
_____
As for the idea that the backlash to the final season of GoT “never existed in reality”, it certainly existed in my reality, both online and off — including with people who are not part of the online fandom. Casual and dedicated viewers alike in all of my circles (and associated circles ie. friends of friends) disliked the final season of GoT intensely and, for me, nobody in these circles (outside of people I know here on WotW) has done a rewatch. Happily, though, most have moved on from GoT and onto other things so I don’t hear much in the way of rants anymore 🙂 However, they’ve asked me if I’m watching “that new dragon show and if it’s any good”. I say that I am and encourage them to give it a try because I find it engaging 🙂
mau,
It’s just not accurate to pretend that the backlash “never existed in reality”. The fact people watch this show does not mean people disliking season 8 was overblown. I don’t understand this argument.
I agree the GOT brand created the initial interest in this show. But you can both dislike season 8 and still watch this program. In fact I bet most of the people who did dislike season 8 do watch this.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
While the final season of LOST was not perfect.. the finale itself was 100% perfection in every way possible.
I actually find it hard to decide if Lost or GoT is my #1 all time.
What’s always struck me as funny is the section of the fandom that says the final season ruined the entire show for them. It made me think of the Star Wars fandom and how some of the breakdown of looking at the entire film saga:
-Those who essentially only acknowledge the existence of the original trilogy.
-Those who have gained more of an appreciation of the prequel trilogy while still acknowledging its faults.
-The discourse on the sequel trilogy, which cannot be condensed into a single sentence here lol
Personally, I do think the final season of GoT will get a second look in about 5 or 10 years from a lot of folks and may even be re-evaluated in a more positive light.
Hmm, do people realise that assuming there is “backlash” over something, clearly people must care about that something?
I would even propose a hypothesis that a “backlash” over a certain property can increase public interest in said property.
In other words, I definitely wouldn’t agree that HotD doing well (or is it great at this point? I honestly cannot tell with streaming numbers factored in what actually is good and what isn’t…) “proves” viewers liked S8 of GoT. That is a very flawed construction.
(And personally, I started watching HotD precisely because I hoped to rediscover the good old days of early seasons of GoT – so far so good.)
Still not sure what on Earth high ratings are supposed to mean about the reality of a backlash. I remember quite acutely being at Con of Thrones right after season 8 finished and the awkwardness in the air, everyone asking each other reluctantly what they thought and seeming relieved to hear the other people hated it just as much as they did. It doesn’t mean we don’t still love the overall property. We were still at a damn con for it, after all.
I hated nearly every minute of season 8 after the 2nd episode, am very unlikely to ever rewatch it, but hell yeah, I was excited as hell for HOTD and have watched every episode the second it premiered. Why? Because I still love the world and the IP, I read the source material and liked it, I’ve watched effectively every primetime top 2-3 show HBO has launched since the days of Sopranos and Six Feet Under and still trust them as a studio, and none of the factors that seem to have led to Game of Thrones turning to crap at the end are here anyway. The showrunners and writers are completely different people. The source material is complete. There is none of the immense sprawl and unresolved story lines that make ASOIAF so difficult to adapt. It’s very unlikely to last more than 4 or 5 seasons and won’t be subject to the possibility that the creatives involved lose interest and start to look to the next phase of their career. It may not reach the same heights, but it’s set up perfectly to at least not fail spectacularly.
As long as everyone is talking about Star Wars as an analogy, same damn thing. This is what being a fan is. Rise of Skywalker was utter trash that I’m said about and will never watch again. But whatever the next Star Wars movie is whenever they release it, I’ll be there watching it. And no matter how bad it is if it’s bad, I’ll still watch the next one. I’ll watch every movie they ever release. Suffering Cubs fans didn’t stop loving and watching and following the team even when they were terrible year after year and continually disappointed for over a century. That’s how love works. Even when you hate the things you love, you still love them and can’t quit them.
mau,
Better Call Saul had a terrible ending too, but it was better than GOT ending.
Adam,
Really felt like something special was going to happen after witnessing S8E2…
Malcolm Ferguson,
I liked the ending as well, but I second Dame of Mercia. All the alternative endings I’ve heard have been terrible.
Jenny,
I don’t think Martin is nearly as involved as some people think he is. Regardless, his involvement, or lack there of, means next to nothing to me. After the disasters that were Feast and Dance, I don’t think I can class him as a good writer. Maybe Winds will restore my faith in him, but right now, his involvement isn’t needed for me to watch an ASOIAF related show. After all, D&D managed to bring GOT to an incredible conclusion without his help, so there’s no reason to think other writers can’t do the same.
Adam,
You described a fandom very well, but unfortunately for your argument, most of the viewing audience aren’t part of a fandom. They are known as casual viewers. They don’t come to sites like this and make comments and speculations about the show every week. They watch it, discuss it afterwards, and then don’t think about it until seven days later. If most of the casual viewers didn’t like the season 8 finale, they most likely wouldn’t have come back for seconds.
Naturally, no one can know for sure what the general consensus of the finale was, not unless you track down the 13 million people who watched it live and asked for their thoughts. However, the evidence that most people loved the final season is staggering. For example, 75% of the finale’s audience returning to watch a GOT successor show.
Brandon,
I didn’t think the Better Call Saul finale was bad, but it was disappointing. I found the GOT finale to be much better.
Pointy End,
You’ve synthesized my thoughts precisely, and far better than I could have in my currently exhausted state.
Adam,
People that go at convention are not the general audience.
And the point is that Game of Thrones is still rewatched and watched for the first time. So as I said it is just vocal minority that doesn’t represent the real audience
Young Dragon,
Yes. Fandom was always full of book purists and half the fandom hated GOT since S2. I am not talking about them. I am talking about the real audience
Those are the people who will never rewatch the original show. And again they are just small minority because we know that the original show is having an amazing performance on HBO MAX.
Not to mention that S8 had amazing sales.
No one is denying subjective opinions but they wanted to pretend that their opinion actually affected anything in real world. And that never happened as ongoing success of both shows proves.
From what I recall in relation to the adaptation of GoT from ASOIAF there was some complaining about the Dorne adaptation – cutting characters, changing book Ellaria’s* and the Sand Snakes’ personalities so that their show counterparts were adaptations in name only for example. Then there was the controversy about giving Sansa book Jeyne Poole’s arc. I can only speak for myself. I found AFFC and ADWD like the long and winding road in parts, though I don’t think they were entirely bad books.
In the books the clues that Dany might eventually go along a dark path were perhaps slightly more obvious. By the end of the first book there were hints that she had a streak of savagery in her character.
I concede that the ending of GoT displeased/disappointed a goodly part of the fandom.
* Season 4 Ellaria was faithful to her book counterpart. The two Ds did have a tendency to want to give extra material to good players and did so with Indira Varma in season 5.
Young Dragon,
He seems to be working in some sort of consulting capacity, he has given them some additional plot details, he might have approved scripts etc. Some people act like he is the show runner. This is all anecdotal, but I have seen so many people respond to criticism of the show with ‘this came from GRRM’ ‘this was approved by GRRM’…. ok, I guess that’s the end of the discussion. I don’t mind the prophecy business, but the dagger lighting up like the One Ring is so silly to me. I don’t care if it came from GRRM or not. I will admit that his approval meant something to me, it gave me confidence to watch HotD after S7 and S8, but the show has plenty of flaws. His involvement doesn’t remove them.
I think he is an excellent writer who got lost in his own story. He desperately needed a brutal editor to push back on his expanding storylines. He has got a blank cheque, he can do what he likes. It reminds me of a certain scene in IT, if you know, you know, how on earth did that make it past an editor? Nobody is going to question King. Or Hillary Mantel, she took 8 years to finish her Cromwell Trilogy and the 3rd book was so bloated. Really self indulgent. It was absolutely beautiful in places, but I wanted to take a red pen to it. When that happens, it’s not good lol. I am a Feast defender, but I didn’t like Dance, it bored me. I pray that Young Griff means something in the end. I really do
Jenny,
I really think think young griff is play a large role in Danys descent. Young griff is the heir through the blackfyre female line. I think he will sit the iron throne and cause Dany to burn kings landing vs the shows combo of Jon and Cersei.
Stew,
That’s what I think too. Like, after all the pain, suffering, trials, and tribulations Dany has gone through, she can finally take her birthright… and then this little shit shows up, who hasn’t gone through, or accomplished, nearly as much as her, and yet he gets to sit on the throne AND has the support of the people, who now view Dany as a usurping tyrant. I can easily see that causing her to snap. It would even make her burning of the civilians more understandable (though obviously, still not justified).
Stew,
That’s my theory too, that KL will be quite happy with him and shut the door in her face. Plus the added threat of Jon’s claim. It will be harder than she ever anticipated. I also think that she will go Fire and Blood in Meereen, and word will get back to Westeros and people will be scared of her. They did do that in the show, but it wasn’t exactly believable from Cersei of all people, who was sat on the throne after blowing up the sept lol
Jenny,
Out of curiosity, what was it about Feast that made you like it more than Dance?
I hadn’t heard this, but I did read an article where James Cameron himself admitted that he was concerned that Avatar 2 would lose relevancy.
I understand his concern since it’s been 13 years or so since the first one came out, but yea, Avatar 2 will still be a massive success.
There’s always going to be a small vocal minority of morons on twitter/social media who make stupid things up and run with it. I don’t understand why the world pays any attention to it.
(1) Why would the audience’s response to HOD be an endorsement of the end of GOT?
I thought the end of GOT was a disaster but I would have watched HOD if I could bear dragons. It is a different story under a different team.
At the start of the season, many of the critics’ reviews of HOD were positive EVEN though they poured scorn on GOT’s end. New York Times referred to the “stench” of the GOT end even as it spoke well of HOD.
(2) GRRM had a large devoted public before GOT was made. Many would be interested in seeing other characters despite GOT’s mess. GRRM leveraged his own reputation to support the new series. His many fans responded positively.
(3) The marketing of HOD addressed many of the complaints made about the end of GOT. In particular, they responded to the fans’ demand that GOT’s end be rejected. Notice that:
(a) GRRM made it clear that his ending will be very different from how GOT ended. This effectively made it clear that GOT was “not canon”. And GRRM is the sole person that determines what is canon. He effectively wiped the slate clean.
(b) GRRM made it clear that D&D had locked him out of the loop on GOT. He again confirmed that HOD had his blessing and GOT did not. Again, “de-conaning” GOT.
(c) The marketing made it clear that D&D would have nothing to do with HOD.
That said, some fans may be turned away because they know how the Targs ended up. But sex, violence, and debauchery can be very entertaining – so some tuned in anyway.
I expected it to do well…
Malcolm Ferguson,
A very shallow reason tbh, I love Jaime and Brienne, Cersei is part of that whole dynamic. Those characters carried the book for me, Cersei was kind of hilarious in that book. She was darker than I had ever imagined and I loved her chapters. I didn’t love Dorne though. I liked Jon in Dance, but I did struggle with Dany and most of Tyrion’s chapters. Feast and Dance were probably on par quality wise, but I was more invested in those characters
Mr Derp,
I have 100% faith in James Cameron, he is a mad man. Everyone thought Titanic would flop, and it become the biggest movie ever. Only to be dethroned by one of his other movies. The man can make a blockbuster.
I saw Avatar in theatre’s 3 times, but I didn’t really like it when I watched it at home. It was definitely a cinematic experience. People seem to have soured on it over time, but why would people talk about it after 13 years of silence? Its relevance will naturally decrease. But he will come back with new tech to impress people, and they will go to see it out of curiosity
Jenny,
i just always think of that quote jorah had. the small folks dont care what games the high lords play. they just want food and an endless summer. it why i think the show just used jon and cersei as the aegon plot that the books will roll out. saves time on another character and got them to keep cersei and jamie around for another season. which dan and dave loved lena.
Mango,
You do know that GRRM directly contradicted his past statements by saying he was “out of the loop” after S5 against his own will, right? In 2015, he explicitly said it was his own choice not to write script for S6 due to wanting to finish TWOW.
“After wrestling with it for a month or so, I’ve decided not to script an episode for season six of GAME OF THRONES. Writing a script takes me three weeks, minimum, and longer when it is not a straight adaptation from the novels. And really, it would cost me more time than that, since I have never been good at changing gears from one medium to another and back again. Writing a season six script would cost me a month’s work on WINDS, and maybe as much as six weeks, and I cannot afford that. With David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Bryan Cogman on board, the scriptwriting chores for season six should be well covered. My energies are best devoted to WINDS.”
Mango,
I don’t get it either. I didn’t like the ending to GoT, but here I am, watching HotD, as are a number of other people. It’s a different show, written by different people, focusing on different characters.
Just because one experience was poor for some, doesn’t necessarily guarantee the next one will be the same.
I actually love HoTD a lot but I agree with you that simply liking something for the sole reason that it came from GRRM is ridiculous… you either like or not like the story element. Your decision to like it should not be based on how this element came to be. I remember rolling eyes on the whole “This prophecy was controversial until we were assured it came from GRRM himself” thing. For one, we don’t even know WHEN GRRM thought of it. He admitted himself he keeps changing plans about the story based on spontaneous inspiration (even as recently as a few months ago when he said he’s “realizing he’s moving away from S6 as he’s writing TWOW”). Who knows how many things he changed in his head since his sitdown with Benioff and Weiss in 2013 for example (he did say in 2011 that he only had broad strokes of the major charactes’ endings planned at that point). Sure, GRRM connecting Targaryens and White Walkers might have been his plan for a while… or it could have been his very recent creation, maybe even after GoT ended. We really don’t know.
Funny thing is that when GRRM confirmed Bran would become king, several people still refuse to believe that. But they all seem to be so welcoming of anything in HoTD being from GRRM.
Jenny,
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see any of Martin’s influence in the writing. And from what I heard, Aegon the Conqueror’s prophetic dream was Condal’s idea to connect the shows, not Martin’s. As you said, though, Martin’s involvement shouldn’t matter when you’re reviewing the series. Right now, House of the Dragon is sitting at a 7/10 for me.
Personally, I think editing is part of the writing process. What you decide to leave out is just as important as what you put in. The first three books were organized and paced perfectly, whereas Feast and Dance were a jumbled mess. I don’t have many positive things to say about those books, one of the reasons being that if Martin is unable to finish, Feast and Dance will be the reason why.
Mango,
The last time you tried to use critical reviews to make your argument for you, it ended up blowing up in your face. I’m not sure why you would want to do that again.
As Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas said it was Martin’s choice to step away, D&D didn’t shut him out. It was probably for the best as they reached the point where Martin’s story went off the rails. Luckily, D&D were able to move on just fine without Martin’s input and bring their show to an amazing conclusion.
HBO had asked D&D if they would be executive producers on House of the Dragon but they turned them down, so HBO has most definitely not been trying to distance themselves from D&D. Why would they? D&D brought them the most successful television series in history.
I really hated how everything felt so rushed the last season of GOT, and I started watching HotD kinda begrudgingly, but I love it now. I didn’t want to watch it cause I know how it all ends for the Targaryan line (come on Snow sequel!) but I have to say I’m really loving being back in the world.
Now I just need to hold out hope that a Targaryan gets back on the throne again through Jon or his kids. I know, I know….. I don’t care, I still want it. LOL
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
1. Yes, it seems that GRRM has evolved his positions on a few topics. I do not follow all his interviews but such is the nature of things.
2. In marketing HOD, he did ensure that it was clear to everyone that he wanted to distance himself from D&D and how GOT ended.
3. My view is that even if/when Bran becomes King – the story leading to that can be appropriately delivered by a good writer. GOT’s end was just in shambles.
Young Dragon,
(1) I stand by every word that I have posted here on critics’ reviews. They were not made carelessly and I have never withdrawn any.
(2) I do not know what you mean by “blowing up in your face”.
If you or others posted a different viewpoint and I did not respond – it may have been that I thought your remarks were beneath the use of my time. Or as it happens with almost all your postings, I simply do not read them. “Scroll” is such a powerful choice when dealing with strangers on the Internet.
You have a right to your views, I scroll by. We all calmly carry on.
Mango,
Rather than argue your points yourself, you referred me to some critics who you thought could make the case against the final season better than you could. Of the critics you gave me, one gave the finale a good review, one gave it a bad review because Sansa wasn’t made queen in the end, and one said that “An Arya who doesn’t want revenge doesn’t make sense.” If you want to use critic reviews for your argument, you should at least try and find critics who:
A. Agree with your position
B. Are actually, you know, good.
And you did respond. When I pointed out how badly written the Sansa review was, you responded by saying the critic who wrote it won awards, which I guess means she’s beyond criticism.
Mango,
100%.
Equating the enjoyment of HotD with approval of how GoT ended might be an example of the logical fallacy false cause. I have no idea how the two are even related.
I try not to voice this often as I know some people on this board love D&D and love GoT s8 but since I am enjoying HotD so much, I want to emphasize how much it has nothing to do with how I feel about GoT s8. I hate, loathe, and despise how GoT ended. I felt the final season’s writing was sloppy, poor, and to me, its scripting was like rushed homework done the morning of. While I wish D&D the best on a personal level, I am thrilled they are in no way involved with HotD and I hope they never come into contact with this universe again.
Part of my interest in HoTD comes from the fact that this is a new story with new characters and I want to move on from the same old tired three-year old fights that have continued over and over and over again. I love to see fresh new material and new discussions in a fandom that has been kind of stale for years. I think HotD is giving us some of that right now. I love that GRRM is involved because GRRM, who has created this world and holds the secrets to many of the mysteries being speculated, is dropping new little tidbits of info every now and then and I love it. I love new material, especially when it comes from GRRM, and I love beginning to get invested in new characters, new relationships, and new stories.
But this has nothing to do with how I feel about the final season of GoT because if it did, I wouldn’t be giving HotD a second look, much less falling in love with another show from the same universe as GoT — a show I can no longer tolerate a rewatch of.
Reading all these comments, I guess I should be glad that in my 11 and a half years of watching TV shows, it almost always happen if I love the TV show when I start watching, I love it just as much or even more after I finish it. And that includes several TV shows where I heard “It’s only good till season (insert a number), then it goes downhill/becomes crap” statements. GoT, LOST, The Walking Dead, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, The X-Files, my recently completed “The Office”.. I’m finishing Supernatural as well after over 3 years of watching and my enjoyment of it hasn’t diminished at all. And when I get to rewatch them a few years later, my appreciation and emotional investment usually only grows with rewatches. I’m sure it will be the same with GoT when I get to rewatch it. I guess I’m lucky I have been spared this apparently quite common feeling when people grow tired or lose appreciation for TV shows they used to love… it never happened to me so far in 11 years. My only “misfire” regarding picking TV shows was the Leftovers in 2017/2018 but in thar case, I realized very early on that it’s not my taste and that my expectations were quite differrent than what the TV show really was. Still I insisted on watching it through as it was only 28 episodes. But for the rest, I loved when I started, I loved it more when I ended it. I don’t know if I was just lucky to pick right TV shows for me but I guess I can say I’m glad I almost never “misfired” and that all the above listed TV shows are there to stay for me to keep enjoying them in future.
GRRM was irrelevant person known only in fantasy circles before Benioff and Weiss decided to make Game of Thrones.
The fact that he tried to betray them after that speaks about his flaws as human being and his very obvious jealousy.
But he likes to claim awards that Benioff and Weiss won. He is obsessed with Emmys and hungry for fame and acclaim that he never got as television writer.
Adrianacandle,
I feel much the same, GRRM may or may not be heavily involved in the show, but he clearly loves this story, and he is a producer. It was partly why I gave it a go. I don’t have any conspiracy theories about why he left GOT, the official reason is that he wanted more time to finish Winds. But if he loved the show, he would have stayed. He lost passion for it somewhere, and I don’t really blame D&D for that. The last 2 books were pretty much impossible to adapt. GRRM has passion for this, and I am interested in the things that he brings to it. I don’t always like them, but it is interesting nonetheless. I’m not overly impressed with HotD as a TV show, GRRM’s involvement can’t save it from my issues with it on a narrative level, but i’ll always be curious about his input. idk, it feels more canon maybe?
Young Dragon,
If Martin had real influence the show would actually have some levity and fun. And swears.
Language is so dull and stiff, unlike in ASOIAF.
GRRM made no public stamements since the show started. Probably because HBO said him to shut up after all the nonsense that he said during promo campaign.
That’s the best for everyone. Since he is not capable of writing more books he should just stay silent and let other people work.
mau,
I’m almost fully sure that if GoT’s end was universally acclaimed, GRRM would have been way more vocal about it being his ending. Remember that when S8 aired, he made that interview how the ending for major characters is pretty much his but as soon as GoT ended, he started to gradually distance from from that statement and with every passing month/year, he started to distance more, especially as HotD air was approaching. I believe his statement that he was “cut off” was all about promoting HotD as “his work” and I feel if it gets less popular, he’ll again start distancing and probably saying showrunners were still doing their own thing for most of the time. But as you said, god forbid he would miss any award show.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That said, I do believe that GRRM might have distanced himself from GoT after S4 due to creative differences. I do feel I’ve heard somewhere he insisted one character needs to be introduced (no idea which one but I suspect the supposed prince Aegon) but the showrunners didn’t go that way but I’m of firm opinion GRRM distanced by himself, not being pushed out. Considering showrunners didn’t intend to include Dorne in first place outside Oberyn and they only changed their mind after S4 due to Oberyn’s popularity, I feel Aegon was on the cutting block quite early on, maybe even in 2013 when the showrunners had that sitdown with GRRM regarding mapping out the rest of the series.
Jenny,
Yeah! I agree with much of what you’ve said! And with GRRM’s involvement — even though we kind of have a rough outline of what is going to happen in HotD — each new episode offers kind of an unopened package in a way and the possibility of a new answer or new ASOIAF tidbit dropping. I find that kind of exciting because it’s new material and it brings my curiosity back to life 🙂 I love feeling that way again!
Adrianacandle,
I’m not sure why you and others feel the need to explain that you’re watching House of the Dragon despite being disappointed with GOT’s ending. No one is refuting that those within the fandom are tuning in to check out HotD, despite their opinions regarding season 8. What we’re talking about are casual viewers, who most likely wouldn’t have given HotD a chance if they were let down by the original show. Now, as I’ve said previously, there’s no way to say for certain what is the general consensus of GOT’s ending, but you can’t deny the evidence points to the final season being very well received.
D&D didn’t rush in the slightest In fact, they took more time working on season 8 than any other season. It’s obviously fine to dislike the final season, but you can do so in a more respectful manner and acknowledge D&Ds hard work and effort.
It’s funny that you call the GOT final season rushed, because that’s exactly how I currently feel about House of the Dragon. I wish it would slow things down and let us know the characters better. Some of the writing for the characters last episode was downright sloppy.
Mango,
Standing by the critics certainly isn’t doing your arguments any favors. Of the critics you referred to me, one gave the finale a positive review, one gave it a negative review because Sansa wasn’t made Queen of the Seven Kingdoms in the end, and one said, “An Arya who doesn’t want revenge doesn’t make sense.” The next time you want to use critics to argue your points for you, you should try choosing critics who:
A. Agree with your position
B. Are actually, you know, good
And you did respond to me. You said that the Sansa critic won some awards, which I guess means she’s beyond criticism.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
That sounds like Lady Stoneheart, who is important for Jaime and Brienne. I also think that Arya will kill her, she is definitely going to the Riverlands. Stoneheart has some book importance, and I know that George was unhappy about her omission. RE: GRRM’s recent comments. Given his writing style, I wouldn’t be surprised if some things have simply changed over time. I do think that Dany will burn KL, Jon will kill her (fulfilling Nissa Nissa) Bran will be King and Sansa will rule the North. Literally everything else is up in the air. Oh, Jaime and Cersei will die, probably together, their show death was an allusion to the valonqar, so i’m pretty sure that Jaime is the younger brother. It’s also possible that he tried to avoid drama and used Winds as an excuse. He might be being truthful at last. Who knows really?
Young Dragon,
‘Success of HOTD proves that backlash never existed in reality. First few episodes did well because of GOT brand power that wasn’t damaged at all by fake backlash of vocal minority.
People stayed with HOTD because they like what they are seeing, they watched first few episodes because they loved GOT.
Success that original show still has on HBO MAX proves that it was all just performative outrage of small % of fanatics and grifters and inevitable success of Snow sequel will further demonstate that “backlash” was just social media delusion..’
This is pretty dismissive of everyone who didn’t like S8, but watch HotD. You didn’t say this, but this is what people are responding to. If we have misunderstood, fine, but they probably could have used different language to describe the situation
Maybe. The thing is, when somebody says something when TV show is still on air and then says something very opposite (usually much more negatively aimed towards mentioned TV series) years later, I have hard time believing what’s real because I feel those statements may be heavily based on taking advantage on current situation and trying to look better/distancing themselves from something that may be controversial now. I believe the real truth is probably somewhere in between when it comes to such stuff.
I do believe that considering how “stubbornly” Benioff and Weiss followed their original 70-episode plan (eventually extending to 73 episodes/76-regular-length episodes), I do believe they were probably quite “stubbornly” following however they mapped the story in 2013, especially considering they knew the ending would be controversial (as seen from some of their statements before the ending even aired). If I recall right some statements from Michelle Fairley or production crew (can’t really remember who), Lady Stoneheart was never in play for S4 and considering Dorne was originally meant to be cut, it’s likely Aegon firmly wasn’t in play either (I suspect majority of novel Dorne plot is directly connected to Aegon).
Yes, I’m more and more sure GRRM has been changing plans through the years after sitdown, probably even more after GoT end… considering his recent statement that he “realizes he’s moving away from S6 as he’s writing TWOW”. I only don’t know if he’s actively changing plans or is his supposed “ending” still just broad strokes with hell of a lot of space for improvisation. I do believe GoT ending was a TV adaptation/version of the ending he had in mind in 2013, especially the endpoints, but with several differences on the path there (as GRRM often said himself). Bottom line, GRRM ending still doesn’t “exist” out there outside GRRM’s mind and with GRRM’s “gardening”, it’s hard to really say how “faithful” should GoT have been to it, especially considering GRRM can change mind anytime he wants.
(I hope my excessively long english sentences are not too annoying to read but that’s a reflection of my native language where our sentences are always complex and structured so my english is kind of the same)
Young Dragon,
I stand by what I said. D&D’s work on the 8th season did, to me, look rushed, sloppy, haphazard, and last season. I don’t know how hard they worked on the last season. I wasn’t there with them. I have no idea. It doesn’t seem like much hard work went into scripting the last season, not as much as earlier seasons — and these are words I’d say to them, to their faces. Not in an angry tone, but in a respectful, gentle, and open tone. I’d hear their responses, I’d consider them, but that is my impression of the final season. I’ve said these same words in art critiques to artists and these words have been said to me.
It is not a remark on their character or who they are as people but on their work. I have not made any personal commentary about them as people. I don’t know them.
I have, however, seen personal remarks made about GRRM in this thread that have gone overlooked by the same people jumping to defend D&D in this very thread — these remarks have been made by those same people. Not by you, Young Dragon, but by others.
What Jenny said.
Additionally, I’m surrounded by casual viewers who disliked the ending as well. They are interested in HotD. Do they count? You are right there is no way to know for certain how GOT’s ending ranks for sure but, as Jenny noted, there were comments made here that HotD’s success “proves” that the backlash against GoT’s final season never existed in reality and was just a falsified social media narrative. We are responding to those comments.
And you’re free to feel that way 🙂 I would never tell you to speak more respectfully because Condal and Sapochnik are working so hard on HotD. It doesn’t bother me you have a differing opinion on their work.
Typo!
* I stand by what I said. D&D’s work on the 8th season did, to me, look rushed, sloppy, haphazard, and last minute.
If I recall right, there were reports that Benioff and Weiss were heavily involved on set during S8, especially during filming Long Night. The actor Joe Dempsie also said that after working years with Benioff and Weiss, he never got impression they wouldn’t be working hard or were not “there” for GoT when he responded to rumors that Benioff and Weiss rushed S8 in order to start SW (which doesn’t make sense in first place because they already wrote scripts in 2017 if I recall right while they signed up for SW in late 2018 when filming was already heavily underway). I also feel it’s often forgotten that S8 took almost a year longer to be produced and filmed… that really doesn’t seem to me someone would be desperately rushing to finish it.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
And if entire GoT was filmed on production scale like S8, it’s very likely we would be waiting 2 years for every season, just like Westworld these years… which means 16 years of filming and that makes me wonder if actors would even stay in first place. But I honestly don’t imagine last season(s) being filmed on budget of earlier seasons. Dragons, White Walkers, armies… it just wouldn’t work in my eyes.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Oh no, they aren’t annoying at all. You are right, it’s hard to know one way or another. He could be changing his story based on public perception, or he chose to stay quiet (he might have signed an NDA for all we know) and he’s letting things slip now that time has passed. Probably a bit of both. I don’t think anything bad went on behind the scenes, creative differences are fair enough. He wanted something like 12 Seasons, which was never going to happen. I wonder when that idea was squashed, surely before he agreed to hand over the rights. He seems to be in the honeymoon faze with HotD, it would be nice if he sticks around, it’s only going to be 3 Seasons on this story. 4 at most.
I think D&D probably did follow those 2013 bullet points. Some fans are still convinced that Jon killing Dany is a total D&D invention. I don’t believe that because it’s such a controversial thing to do, why give themselves the headache? lol. They had to come up with the journey to that point ofc, which is where it gets a bit dicey. I would be very surprised if GRRM got cold feet after S8 aired, but he could have got the garden shears out and made some changes. A lot of changes probably. He has actually finished some chapters this year. Jaime, Brienne, Tyrion and Cersei. This is exciting to me personally, the conclusion to Jaime/Brienne and Lady Stoneheart exists somewhere
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
To be clear, Erik, I’m not talking about anything other than the writing/plotting/story structuring of season 8. That’s where everything fell off the map for me and felt the most slapped together. I have no conspiracy theories as to why that is and I never have. Never in my history on this site have I mentioned Star Wars. I’ve also said I don’t know how much work D&D put into the writing/plotting/story structuring of season 8 because I wasn’t there and I don’t know.
I’m sorry if my words offend anyone. Erik, I know you feel differently and I respect that. I try not to voice this particular opinion of mine often in consideration of others’ feelings on the matter. In this thread, I felt like it was important to state in order to counter against the “backlash against GoT’s ending never existed in reality” idea introduced in this thread as it felt so dismissive of a great many opinions that do exist in reality.
This is exciting to me too 🙂
To be honest, now I’ve no idea what to think anymore about what will happen in GRRM’s ending other than what’s been confirmed by either GRRM/D&D/other directors or crew — but I really really really want to read it 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Your insinuations that D&D did not give it their best effort is an attack on their person, though. Dislike the final season all you like, but considering it took a year longer to produce than any of the seasons that came before it should be more than enough to prove to you that D&D gave it their all.
I had problems with some of the writing of last week’s episode of House of the Dragon, but I never said Condal and Sapochnik weren’t working hard, and if I did, you would have every right to tell me to speak more respectfully. I’m sure Ryan Condal and the rest of the cast and crew tried their hardest to produce the best possible material for the audience. I have also been openly vocal against GRRM for how he wrote Feast and Dance, but I have never called him lazy. I don’t consider him to be lazy now even with the long wait for Winds. I just think he’s stuck. D&D, Condal, and Martin all put their best foot forward. Their best was good enough for some and not good enough for others, but none of their work can be described as “rushed homework done the morning of.”
It’s a criticism of their work, hardly a personal attack. I’ve given the same criticism of students’ work and teachers/instructors/professors have given the same criticisms of mine. This is a common criticism of work… and a very true criticism of work.
Sorry, I hardly consider calling one’s work “lazy” or “rushed” or comparing it to “rushed homework done the morning of” a personal attack of one’s character because it’s not attacking a person, it’s criticizing their work.
And to clarify, I did not call D&D lazy. I called their writing on season 8 rushed, sloppy, last minute, slapped together, haphazard, and compared it to last second homework done the morning of. There’s a difference between calling a whole entire person lazy and their work on a specific part of a project lazy. I think that’s absolutely a valid criticism. Hopefully, they do better on their next project because this is something they can improve.
Adrianacandle,
I know you didn’t use the word “lazy”, which is why I said you insinuated it. Since you then defended the use of the word, I would say my insinuations were correct, and if you can’t see how making the baseless claim that D&D were complacent and didn’t put their best effort into the final season as a personal attack, then you possess an almost inhuman level of self-awareness.
The fact is that D&D worked longer and harder on the final season than any of the seasons that came before it. Not only that, but according to Bryan Cogman, D&D made more notes on his season 8 episode script than any of his other episodes, which is further proof that they worked hard. Just because you didn’t like the final season doesn’t give you the right to question D&D’s dedication to the show.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Yes, the argument that D&D rushed the final product never made much sense. I guess some people find it easier to attack the showrunners rather than the show itself.
Young Dragon,
Oh good lord, Young Dragon 🙄
Saying I have an inhuman level of self-awareness is a personal attack because that is against my character. Still, go ahead as you please.
Good writers can produce lazy work and I think D&D did produce lazier and lazier work progressively in the latter seasons, especially when compared to their work in earlier seasons where they did do some good work that obviously got me and many others hooked. Their work made me, many of my friends, and family members into devoted fans.
But later on? The cracks began to show, especially in season 8. And here are some more adjectives: I found the scripting for season 8 abysmal and careless. I do consider D&D good writers but I don’t consider what they did in season 8 good writing. Free speech gives me the right the question D&D’s professional dedication to any work they professionally put out for public consumption. They are two grown wealthy men who have chosen this as their profession. Their work and their dedication to professional projects is subject to questioning and criticism. Free speech gives you the right to praise them and their story decisions, free speech gives me the right to question and criticize.
You know what I find weird? The fact that according to the internet, S7 seems to be intensely disliked now but at the time it aired, it was (or at least seemed to be) loved by majority as it had really high ratings and people were “fanboying”/”fangirling” everywhere. To lesser extent, it’s same with S6… GoT was at absolute peak during S6 I would say, hitting some of the highest (IMDB) ratings and such. But now there seems to be some “consensus” the show already wasn’t good then. Do people just abruptly change their opinion like that?? Especially considering that people who disliked the ending probably didn’t get to rewatch the show in first place? Or was it for the fact that S6 and S7 were only loved because people thought they’ll get what they want… such as Jon and Dany falling in love, marrying, defeating “Mad Queen Cersei” (who turned out not to be mad queen) conquering the Throne, uniting entire Westeros behind them and defeating White Walkers in season-long final battle and living happily ever after? This whole mentality is weird to me now… if the latter is indeed correct, then it only enforces my belief that for majority who disliked the ending, the problem was “WHAT” and not “HOW” when it comes to story.
Another thing… I wonder if S7/S8 were presented to one person as one 13-episode long final season with that person having no idea they aired separately originally (and that there was almost a 2 year long wait between them). Would there still be so many complaints about potentially rushed pace or would entire thing have more of a “endgame season” feeling?
Adrianacandle,
You can use all the adjectives you want, but unless you start providing some examples and evidence to support them, they are merely empty words without any real meaning. Myself and others, on the other hand, have provided concrete examples that prove D&D worked very hard on season 8. You have yet to do the same, and until you do, your argument is dead in the water.
I agree that D&D are very good writers, two of the best, and the writing of season 8 supports this. Condal and his team are good as well, but they’re writing isn’t nearly as sharp or as consistent as D&D’s. Unlike you, I would have been more than happy for D&D to get involved in House of the Dragon, or any of the other successor shows, but I understand why they would have wanted to move on.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I think it’s just people being biased against D&D. The people who disliked the ending now blame D&D for ruining their favorite show and can no longer give them any credit. Now, to them, only the seasons that followed the books can be good, because that way, Martin gets the credit and not D&D.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I quite enjoyed swimming against the tide when S7 aired, people defended it every week, I remember it clearly. I liked Episodes 1 and 7, but the rest…. For me, it was by far the worst Season of the show. I tried to forgive it, because it existed to weaken Dany’s army and set up S8. It had to be done. Get Jaime here, get Dany there, get rid of Littlefinger, destroy the wall, lose a dragon. Nothing felt organic, it was a long checklist with little to no emotional impact. I don’t know how D&D work, but it felt like they had their end points, and worked backwards on that Season, more than any other. I’ve seen people reevaluate it after S8, they just realised that everything they disliked about S8 existed in S7 and they just didn’t want to see it. At least S7 wasn’t the end, I still had great hopes for S8, and I still think it improved on S7. People can reevaluate the show at any time, the benefit of hindsight. But I can’t deny that bias against D&D plays a part with some people too
Young Dragon,
I’m not trying to provide any argument or “win” any “debate” here. I’m stating an opinion, thus why I’m using “I think” and “I feel” language. I’m not trying to state my viewpoint as some kind of objective fact. Originally, I only stated my opinion because above, mau stated the following:
And I wanted to dispute this so, as somebody who really enjoys HoTD, I stated my negative opinion of GoT S8. You then proceeded to tell me, “I’m not sure why you and others feel the need to explain that you’re watching House of the Dragon despite being disappointed with GOT’s ending[…],” accused me of insulting D&D as people when I felt their writing and plotting on the final season was rushed, felt last minute, sloppy, etc. and here we are.
I’m not looking to “win” with my opinion of their writing and plotting of season 8. I know you think their work on season 8 was top notch and everything they did and wrote made sense/was done well.
I’d give examples of what I think was sloppy but my god, I have too much to do to get into another fruitless season 8 debate and I am not picking that battle today or any day.
And other than a general agreement that D&D are good writers, this is where we vehemently part in opinion.
Adrianacandle,
You not liking the show is a matter of opinion, but D&D giving the final season their best effort is not. It’s either they worked hard or they didn’t. Myself and others have provided examples that prove D&D were highly dedicated to making season 8 the best season they could make, whereas you have provided absolutely zero evidence to prove otherwise. And no, you not liking the final product is not evidence D&D didn’t work hard.
I don’t know what you mean about not wanting to get into another season 8 debate. We’re already having a season 8 debate.
The original poster was referring to casual viewers, not viewers that belong to the fandom. People belonging to the fandom would have tuned in to watch House of the Dragon no matter what their views on season 8, whereas casual viewers who disliked how the final season ended would most likely not give the successor show a chance. That’s why I questioned your need to explain that you are an exception. We already know.
Young Dragon,
And to this, I said I don’t know whether or not D&D gave their best effort. It was simply my impression based on the quality of their scripting and plotting for season 8 that they did not.
I don’t know how they were feeling about the show at the time. I don’t know what they were making notes on. This does not change my opinion that I felt the writing was sloppy, rushed, and felt careless. No, I still do not feel D&D put their best foot forward. You can say they put as many notes on scripts as there are words in the bible. I do not know what those words say. I do not know where D&D’s focus was. Maybe it was on slashing down dialogue. Maybe it was on the look of the show. I don’t know, I’m not privy to those details.
However, I do not think meticulous effort (or even mediocre effort) is reflected in the final product, especially one with as many plot holes as season 8 has. That part of my opinion will not change.
Did I say it was evidence? I keep saying it is my opinion, not objective fact. Again, I’m not trying to win any debate here. All I did was state an opinion to counter what above comments have said trying to link the success of HotD to supposed approval of GoT S8. I’m not trying to win you or anyone else over to my view of GoT S8.
I don’t want to get into a debate over what I found sloppy in season 8. Dark!Dany, “Smart”!Sansa, “Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet”, Tyrion confiding in Varys about Jon’s parentage even while knowing Varys wants to get rid of Dany and then Tyrion ratting Varys out to Dany when Varys does betray her, etc. Even bringing these points up gives me anxiety about just restarting a tired argument and I won’t take part.
First, I don’t think I’m any exception. Don’t put words in my mouth. I just didn’t want to be dismissed. I hardly believe there was any fake backlash or it was simply a social media false narrative.
Second, I saw no specification that this was speaking of casual viewers only — but I also find this dismissive of casual viewers who disliked the ending as well. I’m surrounded by such casual viewers in my life who intensely disliked the final season of GoT.
Third, you went after me for expressing a negative opinion of season 8 and now, the focus of this exchange keeps changing. First it was (paraphrasing), “Why are you feeling the need to express your dislike of season 8?” then it was, “You are being disrespectful for attacking D&D as people by calling their writing on season 8 rushed and thoughtless!” and then it was “You are providing no proof that D&D did not put hard work into the final season!” when, in the first place, all I wanted to do was counter the idea that responses to HotD and to GoT S8 are not related. It was never my intention to win any kind of debate proving D&D are the worst ever.
Adrianacandle,
Crap, typo — and in my bolded text no less:
* all I wanted to do was counter the idea that responses to HotD and to GoT S8 are related.
Took out the ‘not’ 🙂
Young Dragon,
It should be pointed out that you’ve said on multiple occasions that you didn’t like the dragonpit scene. That’s a pretty big piece of the ending.
Adrianacandle,
Neither you and I need to see the notes that D&D wrote, though. Maybe their notes made vast improvements to Cogman’s episode, or maybe they made it worse, I don’t know, but it doesn’t matter. We’re not talking about quality, but hard work, and the fact that they took more notes on Cogman’s episode than any of his previous episodes proves effort and dedication. It wasn’t just that they took notes, though. They spent more time on season 8 than any other season and there are reports from the other cast members stating that the idea D&D didn’t work hard on the final season is preposterous. But, of course, none of that mattes to you because you believe your feelings over cold, hard facts, feelings that you refuse to acknowledge are heavily biased and cannot be trusted. You use the word “feelings” because you think it protects your comment from scrutiny, but it doesn’t, because this isn’t about feelings. Again, whether or not D&D worked hard on the final season isn’t a matter of opinion. It’s tangible, provable, and unlike you, I’ve backed up my argument with facts, whereas you’ve only backed up yours with feelings. Like I said, until you’ve produced evidence that D&D slacked off, your argument is dead in the water.
You can say season 8 has plot holes as much as you like, but it’s meaningless without examples. If my past experience is anything to judge by, I’m guessing your using the term incorrectly. So many times people used the word plot hole to describe something they simply didn’t like.
And like I said, this isn’t a matter of opinion. You’re making the claim that D&D slacked off, so I have every right to ask you for evidence. If you don’t have any, you should just drop it, because you will never win the argument otherwise.
Dark Dany was a great twist that was built perfectly over the seasons and was well earned! I know you like Daenerys, which is why you weren’t a fan, but that has to do with personal preference, not the writing. Brace yourself, Daenerys will most likely go dark in the books as well. I don’t know what you mean by Smart Sansa, and I don’t know why Sansa being smart would upset you. Dany didn’t forget about the Iron Fleet. She mentioned them in the very episode. Varys didn’t want to get rid of Daenerys until Tyrion told him about Jon, who Varys saw as a better choice, and Tyrion did not know that was going to happen. Jon’s parentage presented a significant problem for Daenerys, so naturally Tyrion was looking to Varys for advice. It all made sense.
Incorrect, I did not go after you for expressing negative feelings for season 8. I went after you for spreading lies about the showrunners hard work and dedication to the final season. If all you wanted to do was argue against the OP’s point, you could have done so without going after D&D. You could even have done so without bringing their names into the discussion at all. If the OP’s comment upset you, I apologize, but that doesn’t give you the right to go after people who had nothing to do with it.
Mr Derp,
More accurately, I didn’t like Bran becoming king, from a character perspective. For the rest of the characters, I could see the path that led to their ending. Bran is an outlier and I think the set up for him becoming king could have been better. The scene itself, however, though not one of my favorites from the series, was good. I liked the new system of choosing the king and I of course loved Bran’s new small council.
But that’s all rather irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if I hated every second of season 8, I would never make the claim the showrunners didn’t try their best, because that’s simply not true.
Young Dragon,
First, how many times do I have to say I’m not looking to win any kind of argument? This is the third time, right?
I said their writing came across as sloppy, poor, and rushed to my eyes because it does. I didn’t use “I feel” language to protect myself from scrutiny. I used that language because I don’t know either way but that is how their writing comes across to me. Sorry, I’m not changing my mind there. Maybe they did put their all and more into it. I don’t know because I don’t know them and I wasn’t there — but sloppy is how their writing and plotting came across to me.
Young Dragon, I can say what I like on this board, especially as it comes to my feelings/impressions/and opinions when it pertains to Game of Thrones and associated materials. I think S8 was bad. I think D&D were increasingly sloppy with plotting and writing as the seasons went on. If you don’t like my saying so, tough bananas. If you feel sharing my opinion(s) (as I’ve stated it as time and time again) as pertains to the quality of D&D’s professional work (ie. the professional, public work of two grown men) is “spreading lies about the showrunners hard work and dedication to the final season”, well… bad luck for you I suppose.
I certainly will bring D&D’s names into any discussion concerning any topic pertaining to Game of Thrones or even House of the Dragon when I feel it is relevant because:
a) this isn’t a site run by Young Dragon and D&D’s personal Kingsguard;
b) D&D are responsible for writing and running Game of Thrones;
and c) this is Game of Thrones discussion site.
You do not get to dictate what rights I do and don’t have. You do not get to dictate who gets to mention D&D, under what circumstances, and who does not. And while I’m at it, you do not get to tell me why I don’t like the Dark!Dany twist. I’ve never revealed in full my reasons for disliking the Dark!Dany twist on this site but it is certainly not per your assumption that oh, I’m just another Dany fan.
And to your other points — that’s exactly why I didn’t want to list everything I found sloppy about D&D’s writing from season 3 (a bit, starting with the Jeyne to Talisa switch) to the mess that was season 8. I am tired of the same old tired arguments and I no longer see the point. At this point, in my opinion, they are fruitless. People have drawn their lines in the sand. Anyone still reading this exchange will have read all of the arguments by now — nothing I bring to the table is anything new. I’d be either preaching to the choir, preaching to the pro-D&Ders on this board, or everyone in between. We know you think much of it was masterfully done. I don’t.
I have things to do now and won’t be replying any longer: after all, I have a Dany shrine to build 🙂
Comment amendment:
I should add I do credit D&D with the creation of and devotion to the art of teleportation in the medieval fantasy ages.
Culture Vulture Media does a fine job of going over some plot holes for GoT S8! He also has some videos for S5-7 if interested — and there’s a very active comment section you may want to participate in if you’re looking for a debate!
Alright, exiting this conversation 🙂
Adrianacandle,
I have placed before you all the evidence you need to accept that D&D worked their hardest on the final season, you’re simply ignoring the facts as they are presented before you. If you haven’t accepted it before now, it’s because your prejudice won’t allow you to accept it. Like I said, you’re putting feelings before facts.
This is perhaps my third time saying this to you, but this is not a matter of opinion. You are not expressing an opinion here, you are telling a lie. It’s already been disproven. Season 8 was bad, D&D were increasingly sloppy with plotting and writing, these are opinions. If you stuck with these, I may have respectfully disagreed, but that would have been the end of it. But then you took it further by falsely stating that D&D did give it their best effort and slacked off. That is the problem. I have stated that plenty of times, and yet you keep coming back to me having a problem with you expressing your opinion. That is not what I care about. You can say what you will about the show, but going after the work ethic of the showrunners who have given every indication that they desired to make GOT the best show it could possibly be, that is crossing the line. It is not an opinion, it is a false statement.
I have never claimed to be the runner of this site. Not sure where you’re getting all this from. You said it yourself that you’re sick of season 8 debates and I was merely pointing out what you could have done to prevent it. Naturally, you can post what you like, but some posts lead to lengthy debates and you need to be prepared for that.
I find your disdain for season 8 discussion rather odd. In the past, it’s normally you who starts the season 8 discussions. Not that I’m complaining. I, for one, have no problem with continuing the discussion. I just find this statement rather hypocritical.
Young Dragon,
I’m may regret replying again but I think it is beginning to cross a different line now — I feel with this reply, you’re going after my character more.
1) Where have I stayed D&D slacked off? At most, I have stated I had the impression they did not put their best foot forward based on the subjective quality of their work but I have also stayed I did not know for certain. That this is the impression I got. Neither of us were there, Young Dragon. We can only — at best — speculate based on second-hand information.
2) Where did I get these ideas? From where you stated the following:
Incorrect, I did not go after you for expressing negative feelings for season 8. I went after you for spreading lies about the showrunners hard work and dedication to the final season. If all you wanted to do was argue against the OP’s point, you could have done so without going after D&D. You could even have done so without bringing their names into the discussion at all. If the OP’s comment upset you, I apologize, but that doesn’t give you the right to go after people who had nothing to do with it.
And I don’t need to be prepared for any lengthy debate, nor do I need to do anything to prevent one per your guidelines. I am not obligated to participate in a debate and I can step out at any point and disengage, this is my choice as it is my choice to reply to you right now.
3) What?! I have spent the past two years bending over backwards to avoid divisive season 8 topics the majority of the time and picking my words extra carefully because I didn’t want to start those discussions. This is the first time in years I have chosen to engage by just mentioning the depth of my dislike for season 8 and listing three plot choices I found sloppy.
I am astonished by you, Young Dragon. Truly.
Young Dragon,
I am going to cease any and all further replies to you because I feel this is getting far too personal. I have invited a mod to review our conversation. I am offended by your words and accusations you have made against me, Young Dragon. The most so I have been on this site since I joined in 2016.
I will limit my interaction with you in the future to as minimal as possible.
I’m sorry. A PS.
Adrianacandle,
Saying they didn’t try their best is the same as saying they slacked off. We don’t have to have been there to see how hard they worked on season 8. I’ve already given you the evidence to prove this.
I’ve already stated that I was explaining to you how you could have avoided this debate, since you were claiming you didn’t want one. You needlessly went after the showrunners when all you had to do was focus on the OP’s original point, that the season 8 backlash was overblown. If you had done that, you could have avoided the debate that you claim you never wanted. Like I said, I’m not complaining, as I enjoy GOT debates. As for the last bit, I explained that to. Legally, obviously, you can attack the showrunners’ character, but ethically, you’re in the wrong.
That hasn’t been my recollection. Not on every post, but a significant amount, either you or TB, the two people who claim to hate season 8 debates the most, are usually the ones to start one by going after season 8. Not disrespectfully, mind you, but enough to spark a discussion.
To be honest, I’m astonished by you too. I disagree with you on pretty much everything season 8 related, but I’ve always admired how you conducted yourself in a respectable manner. I’ve given up on Martin finishing the books, and part of me has even grown disinterested in reading them after the show hit the ending out of the park, but I still really wished he would finish for your sake and a few others, so you can get the ending that you wanted. I’m not sure what changed and what caused you to needlessly go after D&D, but it makes me sad.
You said this before, but it didn’t last very long. Regardless, it’s a little late for you to take the moral high road. You made a bogus claim, then I laid out the evidence for you that showed you were wrong, but you doubled down saying “I don’t know.” At that point, ignorance was no longer an excuse, but you tried to use it as an excuse anyway. Bring the mods in if you want, but I’m not in the wrong here. I was simply defending D&D’s work ethic that you needlessly attacked.
Late with my response but I’m of firm opinion that as much as episodes/movies/novels can be re-evaluated in time, going from loving it to plain hating it (and it happening in less than 2 years) is not natural in my opinion. I’m of firm opinion that if these people indeed “loved” it the first time around, it was almost certainly to the fact they believed they were getting what they wanted. After all, S6 gets the closest to the idea of “dream ending” for many fans as Dany departs for Westeros with seemingly unbeatable army with Tyrion being her Hand, Cersei seemingly goes Mad Queen (turns out not to be true at all in S7), Arya is becoming some sort of “badass” assassin, Starks finally rule Winterfell and such… and while S7 does deconstruct it to some extent, destroying majority of Dany’s army and one of her dragons, bringing WW over the Wall before the Throne was conquered and such, it still toys with the “dream ending” that Dany and Jon will fall in love and rule together after this is all over, maybe even having a child together, Jaime “finally” abandoning Cersei for good and potentially killing her in future, Arya being at peak of her “badassery” etc.
I’m of firm belief this has A LOT to do with initial S7 love from people who eventually ended up “hating it” and consequently, I’m still of firm opinion a large portion of those who disliked S8, disliked it for “WHAT” and not “HOW”. While I do agree reevaluations happen, I don’t think they would be as drastic as this…going from loving to purely hating it. Either those people never really “loved it” in first place, or a big reason for turning against it was the fact they didn’t get what they want.
I do know for myself I can’t even firmly say which episodes or characters are my favorite or less favorite in any TV show until I get to rewatch that TV show in its entirety at least once with full knowledge where the story is headed. Because that’s the opinion that will almost certainly stick with me with every future rewatch, not the opinion I form when I still don’t know where the story is going. In pretty much every case, my overall love for certain TV show only increases with rewatch because hell of a lot more scenes and dialogue become way more meaningful to me when knowing where the story is headed. But the scenes I may grow less fond of during rewatches are usually scenes from earlier seasons that don’t match the eventual vision of the story or character in their endgame stages.
Yes, I may be “unique” in such perspective but when it comes to completed TV show, I take the ending as “alpha & omega” and then re-evaluate the scenes from previous seasons in regards to the ending, liking less those that turn out to not really be “relevant” for the endgame and liking more those where I see the endgame being reflected in them. I haven’t rewatched GoT in its entirety yet (all my rewatches were those before new seasons) so I can’t firmly speak about how I would re-evaluate GoT scenes but I know from my other favorite TV shows that rewatches usually affect me the way I described above.