Game of Thrones Showrunners Benioff & Weiss Give Rare Post-Season 8 Interview!

(4) Helen Sloan - HBO

Game of Thrones showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss aren’t known for extensive interviews, and that’s been particularly true after this final season. Not that it came as a surprise: for months before the final season aired, they made clear that their post-season plan was to hole up without an internet connnection, relax for the first time in a decade, and get drunk. It appears their vacation may be over, as they have now addressed the final season in a new video interview coming out of Japan.

This surprising interview comes from Star Channel, the Japanese group of premium television channels that airs Game of Thrones. The showrunners were asked about the show’s legacy has turned out to be in their lives and to the world:

“To have [the show] become what it became, and to be able to spend not one year or two years but more than ten years of our lives making it at this level, with [all] the people [behind the camera] that we got to work with…”, Weiss trails off. “We didn’t have any idea that the show would be so big,” Benioff follows up his companion’s thought. “When we first started going to Northern Ireland, where we shot the show, the customs officers would ask us what we were doing there; we’s say ‘we’re working on this show…’ [and they’d be like] ‘what is it, Game of Thornes?’ And then, by the third season, [at London’s] Heathrow Airport, the [customs] guy was reading A Game of Thrones, George’s book, and we knew that something was starting to cross the threshold of public awareness.”

For the first time since the finale, the showrunners address the controversial final season, with Benioff highlighting his favorite scene when asked about it:

“One [season eight scene] that sticks out to me, because Brienne of Tarth has always been one of our favorite characters, is the moment where she’s knighted by Jaime Lannister; it’s just a wonderful thing in the story, and to see Gwen’s face in that moment… I’ve probably seen that scene four hundred times and every time it gets me. It makes me a little bit thrilled, it makes me tear up. I love that scene.”

Brienne of Tarth A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms 802 Season 8 Header

Regarding the infamous coffee cup incident a few episodes later, in which a coffee shop cup briefly appeared on the table during a feast scene in “The Last of the Starks”, Benioff gets a bit philosophical about it, though with a definite tone of irony:

“I think in Persian rugs it’s tradition that you make a little mistake when making the rug, because only God can do anything perfect, so for us I guess that just was our [mistake].” Weiss interrupts, jokingly: “That’s why I put the coffee cup there. Conscious, concerted statement of our imperfection.” The real answer, provided by Benioff, is of course not as funny: “We were concentrating so much on Daenerys and Jon Snow that we just didn’t see this coffee cup right in the middle. So, at first I couldn’t believe it, and then it was embarassment; ‘how did we not see this coffee cup in the middle of the shot?’. And then, eventually, it was just funny. This one is just a mistake, and it’s kind of funny to us now.”

coffee cup daenerys 804
Finally, as for the the astounding (and record-breaking) 32 Emmy nominations the final season received, Weiss welcomes them for the sake of the cast and crew’s hard work but rather candidly admits he did not expect the show to break its own record again:

“It was kind of surprising? I did not know that we expected [that]. At least in my mind, I thought that the [previous] season would have been the peak and that we would’ve ended up with maybe a couple less, at best,” Weiss emphasizes. “I felt very happy for all of our team of people, all of the actors and all of the crew who got recognized. Each made us feel really proud of them and happy for them, because we know first-hand how hard they worked; we saw it every day for many years.”

“And it’s also just fun,” Benioff interjects, “because once people get nominated, that means they come to L.A. for the ceremonies. Ten of the actors are nominated, and so many of the crew members, so it’s just a great excuse for everyone to get drunk again.”

That’s the spirit! Literally, perhaps.

377 responses

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    1. Is this the first comment?
      Aye, it seems that it is.
      At first I was excited to see that they had given an interview.
      Then I saw it was in Japan. Really? Thousands of miles away from the US.
      Why?

      (I need no answer, I know it already).

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    2. I’m going to blame the wee toastie lady for the coffee cup gaffe. If her coffee wasn’t so damn good then it wouldn’t have been there to begin with!

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    3. Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss got a magical and magnificent 8 seasons of groundbreaking television that we will never see the likes of again. Thank you for a brilliant final season and finale. How you guys were able to take the reigns of this story halfway through completion and tie up all of these character arcs I will never know. I will always be grateful. Thank you for the brilliant interview as well.

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    4. Hopefully they can see the constructive criticisms levied at the show and learn from them. Dismissing all of it out of hand just means they are pulling a George Lucas and unwilling to admit that maybe some of their ideas on how to handle things like pacing, character development and dialog wasn’t the best.

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    5. Meh the whole Brienne being knighted thing. It felt like a bit much in what was otherwise the best episode of the season. Felt unnecessary.

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    6. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      To each their own, it was my favourite scene of the season, and one of my favourite’s of the show as a whole. A beautiful moment between two people who had grown to love each other (temporarily as it turned out but whatever) and the first time Brienne felt truly respected in her life. It was a big moment and really intimate.

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    7. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      Meh the whole Brienne being knighted thing. It felt like a bit much in what was otherwise the best episode of the season. Felt unnecessary.

      Perhaps you are thinking it was too much fan service? But this fan was smiling ear to ear right along with Brienne. Her smile when she was knighted is something I will always remember. Episode 2 was Bryan’s love letter to these characters that we came to love after 10 years. A little fan service was quite appreciated, especially considering that most were going to die by seasons end. i thought the whole ensemble gathered in front of the fire was something I will enjoy watching over and over again. NCW’s scene where he says the words and lays the sword on Brienne’a shoulders was brilliant. As Jenny’s song said as the episode ended ended, “She never wanted to leave.” And I am right with Jenny.

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    8. Tron79,

      Yes, this Jenny was crying her little eyes out. NCW zoned out while filming that scene he was so into it, and then they both seemingly forgot that there was anyone else in the room. It was perfect. When Pod started singing Jenny’s song, I honestly thought ‘wow they really wrote this episode just for me’ LOL.

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    9. I know they said it was an interview in Japan but not sure why I was surprised it actually came up in Japanese when I clicked the link.

      Artists really shouldn’t have to explain themselves. They did explain a number of things in the behind the scenes after each episode with the exception of the finale. They explained why they decided to have Arya be the one to kill the NK for example. Some people just didn’t like their explanation!!!. I think at this point people have made up their minds. For me it is still a tv show. Certain feelings are healthier for me to let go and not let them fester. There are things I would have liked to have seen but I also can appreciate it the way it is. As I have posted before a little time has made a major difference for me. I know others have posted that time has just made it worse for them.

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    10. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      Yes, this Jenny was crying her little eyes out.NCW zoned out while filming that scene he was so into it, and then they both seemingly forgot that there was anyone else in the room.It was perfect.When Pod started singing Jenny’s song, I honestly thought ‘wow they really wrote this episode just for me’ LOL.

      Maybe they did!
      (Thats something Bran would say)

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    11. I always found the coffee cup criticism to be a bit ridiculous. If it wasn’t plastered all over the internet, I never would have noticed. It certainly didn’t draw my attention. Someone obviously went through the episode, shot by shot, looking for mistakes and then tried to pass it off as a legitimate criticism.

      As for Jaime knighting Brienne, it was a great scene, but not one of my favorites.

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    12. Young Dragon:
      I always found the coffee cup criticism to be a bit ridiculous. If it wasn’t plastered all over the internet, I never would have noticed. It certainly didn’t draw my attention. Someone obviously went through the episode, shot by shot, looking for mistakes and then tried to pass it off as a legitimate criticism.

      As for Jaime knighting Brienne, it was a great scene, but not one of my favorites.

      Yeah someone who didn’t like the final season was just trying to find anything they could to gripe about. Kinda like the “Dany kinda forgot about the iron fleet” nonsense. It actually made perfect story sense that she wasn’t concerned or thinking about the fleet. Everything adds up.

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    13. Ten Bears,

      It was a lovely moment to have before they proceeded to rip my heart out and stamp on it in front of me lol. Slightly dramatic I know, but I’m still really sad about how it all ended.

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    14. Jack Bauer 24,

      How does it make sense? They mentioned it when planning their next move, and then D&D said that she forgot about them. The Iron fleet caused her some big losses in Season 7, she should have been on the look out.

      I’m not getting into it all here, but you don’t have to look for a coffee cup to find things to complain about this season. People were already mad about episode 4 before anyone noticed the cup.

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    15. Jenny:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      How does it make sense?They mentioned it when planning their next move, and then D&D said that she forgot about them.The Iron fleet caused her some big losses in Season 7, she should have been on the look out.

      She had 2 dragons and she was flying one of them. She wasn’t concerned. She was going to prepare to invade KL and take down Cersei. That’s what she cared about. It was sad seeing Rhaegal go down, but it was beautifully written and executed.

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    16. Jack Bauer 24,

      She wasn’t concerned about her own fleet? If she thought herself invincible on a dragon, she should have been looking out for enemies on their behalf, especially since Euron had inexplicably taken them by surprise in S7, they were sailing into enemy territory. But Ok, if that works for you then I’ll leave it at that.

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    17. Jenny:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      How does it make sense?They mentioned it when planning their next move, and then D&D said that she forgot about them.The Iron fleet caused her some big losses in Season 7, she should have been on the look out.

      Other than the dragons, D&D pretty much let go of the magical elements as much as possible as the series concluded. If it were me, I would have had Bran warg to do some reconnaissance. By that time at least some knew about Bran’s powers. That’s really about the only power of his that was used consistently (seeing through the birds). Perhaps the crows didn’t like flying south?? That being said, it worked fine for me, because Dany wasn’t thinking clearly and she wasn’t listening to anybody. All she was thinking was she had to attack now and win the IR. She didn’t listen to Sansa about letting the troops (or her dragon Rheagal) rest. That was probably her biggest mistake. Rheagal was in no shape to fly, and I put that all on Dany. What would have been the harm waiting? Cersei wasn’t going to hire a second golden company. She already had all of the scorpions built for the towers. There really wouldn’t have been much harm. Part of the reason Stannis had to attack when he did was the weather was killing his troops. He was a sourthern king up north. Weather wasn’t an issue in Dany’s decisions. And she wasn’t listening to Tyrion or anyone. Poor Rhaegal.

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    18. Jenny:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      She wasn’t concerned about her own fleet?If she thought herself invincible on a dragon, she should have been looking out for enemies on their behalf, especially since Euron had inexplicably taken them by surprise in S7, they were sailing into enemy territory.But Ok, if that works for you then I’ll leave it at that.

      Dragonstone isn’t enemy territory.

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    19. Jack Bauer 24,

      It’s at the entrance to Blackwater Bay where KL is, you can’t get to KL without sailing right by, it stands to reason that the Iron Fleet would be in the vicinity, it was enemy territory.

      Tron79,

      Now that makes more sense, if we have Dany in that type of mindset already. We then have to assume that she really did forget about the fleet. Euron’s control of that fleet is more interesting to me, he can sail past Dragonstone undetected and hide his fleet at the perfect angle behind a rock so that they remain hidden from view by sea and air. Best sailor in the world I’d say, best swimmer as well if Ep 5 is anything to go by.

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    20. Jenny:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      It’s at the entrance to Blackwater Bay where KL is, you can’t get to KL without sailing right by, it stands to reason that the Iron Fleet would be in the vicinity, it was enemy territory.

      Tron79,

      Now that makes more sense, if we have Dany in that type of mindset already.We then have to assume that she really did forget about the fleet. Euron’s control of that fleet is more interesting to me, he can sail past Dragonstone undetected and hide his fleet at the perfect angle behind a rock so that they remain hidden from view by sea and air.Best sailor in the world I’d say.

      Yes, I think she was in this mindset. And yes, Euron was supposed to be the best sailor in the world. Just ask him!

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    21. Tron79,

      Lol that is true, he would certainly agree with me. Also best aim with a Scorpion bolt, and the killer of Jaime Lannister, a man of many talents. Pity he was a complete clown.

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    22. Jenny,

      In truth I zoned out with the song.
      All of ep. 2 was a masterpiece. Cogman’s love letter to the actors, but still without any scenes of the Starks together there’s something missing, like a painting with a flaw. They have given us numerous scenes of Lannister bonding, and no Stark scenes. Apparently the Starks hated each other, they thought that there was no point of showing us more strife. Oops, I forgot myself, they had the council scene, where all the protagonists were together and the Starks focused on saving the future king’s life.

      (ok, I’m shutting up now, I’m bitter and snarky again)

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    23. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      Lol that is true, he would certainly agree with me.Also best aim with a Scorpion bolt, and the killer of Jaime Lannister, a man of many talents.Pity he was a complete clown.

      Correction. Best aim as of episode 4. He seemed to have lost his touch the next episode 🙂

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    24. Jack Bauer 24,

      First of all it depends on who’s the enemy.
      Second, waters, ships, moving targets? Fleets don’t stand still, they move, they lurk and they make sudden attacks. That’s exactly what pirates do. In fact if pirates are detected then they’re failures.

      Also, apparently the proximity to Dragonstone could have made Dany more relaxed, like she’s close to home now, how unsafe can she be?

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    25. Mr Derp,

      Haha, true, he lost his touch all of a sudden. That actually reminds me, we saw a preview of Episode 5, and it had Euron looking shocked, I honestly thought we were going to get Dany and Drogon kitted out in armour. I was so ready to fangirl over it. That said Dany’s outfit was on point in episode 5, it looked like it had been dipped into the blood of her victims.

      Efi,

      Ah, what we might have had with more episodes, I wanted to see the Starks learn about Jon, I was gutted when they cut away and suddenly Arya is leaving WF forever. At least the Jon and Arya reunion made me teary eyed. I was so desperate to see that happen. Sansa makes no sense to me, so I got nothing when it comes to her.

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    26. Jenny:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      She wasn’t concerned about her own fleet?If she thought herself invincible on a dragon, she should have been looking out for enemies on their behalf, especially since Euron had inexplicably taken them by surprise in S7, they were sailing into enemy territory.But Ok, if that works for you then I’ll leave it at that.

      … and because Bronn harpooned Drogon in S7e4.

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    27. Efi,

      ”In truth I zoned out with the song.
      All of ep. 2 was a masterpiece. Cogman’s love letter to the actors, but still without any scenes of the Starks together there’s something missing, like a painting with a flaw…”

      ____
      Good point. Although they did have a scene with Arya and her surrogate daddy.
      (“I fought for you, didn’t I?” 😢)

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    28. Jenny,

      Rhaegal was an easy target, as he was injured and didn’t know the attack was coming, so hitting him wasn’t an amazing feat. Drogon was a much harder target to hit, and Euron was unable to land a single shot.

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    29. Jenny,

      She didn’t forget them. As you said, they discussed it earlier in the episode. D&D may have said she did, but whether or not they meant it or misspoke, it doesn’t matter. All that matters is how it’s presented on the screen, and the way they presented it was that Danerys was ambushed by Euron’s fleet as they were hidden behind rocks. That’s canon.

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    30. Jack Bauer 24,

      Nothing about her lack of vigilance added up at all. She was at war- and the Iron fleet was completely in her line of sight. You could even see it in shot, just behind Missandei. Not one part of that scene made any sense.

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    31. Efi,

      There were actually several scenes of the Stark children looking out for each other. The seasons you are thinking of are seasons 1 and 7. Those are the seasons Arya and Sansa were in conflict with one another. As for season 8, we had Arya and Jon’s reunion, Arya and Sansa expressing concern about Bran’s plan to use himself as bait, Arya handing the dragonglass dagger to Sansa and telling her to go to the “safety” of the crypts, Arya saving Bran, the Stark family meeting, Jon showing concern for Arya after realizing she was in King’s Landing during Dany’s attack, Arya warning Jon about Danerys, Sansa demanding Jon’s release, Arya threatening Yara against harming her brother, Bran accepting Sansa’s proposal for an independent North, and the Stark family farewell.

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    32. Coffee cup was negligence but it happens and it really was funny in retrospect. I thought it was perfect since we got so excited about the other Starbucks coffee shot from when Margery and Tommen married which of course was not a real shot from the series. For a second I thought it was a cheeky Easter egg joke for us to find.

      ❤️ Best scene was best. That was my fave scene too: Jamie knights Bri.

      I wish they’d talk a bit about Dany and her actions towards the end and her mad queen speech but I suppose they’d be divulging from Martin’s broad strokes. I thought that maybe that must have been the third twist they mentioned they got from him.

      Jack Bauer 24,

      Definitely not nonsense. Ridiculous take. Trying to rile up shit. I see you Jack Bauer, I see you 😏

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    33. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      😔 Good heavens Brian. “Meh” I take that personally. I mean haters I can just say: suck it, hater but Meh?! That makes me sad.

      Jenny,

      I could feel my whole body vibrate from the quiet intensity that radiated from NWC and his voice when he said that oath. You could hear a pin drop in my whole building too for that scene.

      I also KNOW my floor and all the neighbors below were watching it because everyone’s stereo surround system was resonating through the walls at Jenny’s song. ☺️

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    34. Jenny,

      Tron79,

      TormundsWoman,

      Yes, it felt inauthentic, fan serviec is exactly what I mean. Whereas the scene between Jaime and Brienne earlier in the episodes were subtle and I really enjoyed. Episode 2 was hands down the best episode of the season because of Mr. Cogman, but I didn’t like the knighting and whole scene where Tyrion, Jaime, Tormund and whoever else drink together and hang out.

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    35. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      That’s fair enough, I disagree personally, I saw it as him using his power to give her something, because he knows that’s what she wants and he cares about her. It was also them expressing their feelings to each other without actually expressing their feelings, so it was still pretty subtle. In the book, one of the first things he says to her is something like, ‘would you prefer Ser Brienne of Tarth?’ to make fun of her, there’s a decent chance that he will Knight her in the book, certainly not inauthentic.

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    36. Young Dragon,

      I’m joking about that, thats just what Euron would say. Him killing Rhaegal isn’t a problem and I don’t think the injury made any difference, the dragons were flying together and facing the same direction, the arrow came from a little way in front and to the left of Rhaegal (because they flew around to face the direction they had just come from) he just happened to be the closest target. Drogon was non the wiser until it happened, and then he started to dodge. If they swapped positions, they would have killed Drogon just as easily. The puzzling bit is everything before and after, the dragons are circling and they didn’t spot them at all? I’m not sure where they came from, it looks like they just came up from behind because the wide shot showed them filling the space between two pieces of land, no huge rock to hide behind. If they replaced Lucky Jack from Master and Commander with Euron Greyjoy, that movie would have been over in ten minutes.

      Young Dragon,

      I don’t think they misspoke, it was a pre recorded and edited video to accompany the episode, you’d hope that they wouldn’t contradict their own writing. Since they are the creators and writers, I accept what they say as cannon, because they are the ones who understand the motivations behind the characters actions. According to them, somewhere along the journey south she forgot about them, so she forgot about them.

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    37. Jenny,

      awwwn Jenny! that happened to me too! it was my favourite moment of the season (apart from Sansa´s coronation), I felt truly emotional.

      Seeing Brienne, this amazing woman who defies gender stereotypes (who also has a gender non conforming image) being rewarded in such a way was, simple put, extraordinary.

      And the scene itself was magicaly writen and shot, we have the Lannister brothers who not so long ago were fighting as enemies, the first woman in the 7K to become a knight, Tormund the wilding, Dadvos and Pod with his pipes, my god, that song was too much for my heart.

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    38. Jack Bauer 24,

      Good God, and how does it add up? I mean, whenever I see your comments, I wonder what’s worse: people who whine about a ‘cup mistake’ or fans that would defend any nonsense till their dying breath?

      Although I hate criticism that is absolutely non-constructive, I also quite understand where that frustration may come from. But to be non-critical when there’s a lot to discuss always gets my wonder: why? Why do people feel so obliged to defend the final season? It’s a subjective idea of wheter it was good or bad, that’s true. But surely, there are a lot of major plotholes and mistakes.

      They had a ‘war council’ – not only is it PERFECTLY stupid for her to fly her dragon, but it also makes this meetong meaningless after all. By the way, she was so high in the sky for a long long time, she should not had a problem in detecting these ships. And the last thing: Rhaegal being killed by 3 consecutive shot, while the dragon she rides dodges everything that goes DIRECTLY in his way. And the fact that we had 2 episodes left after this event, there was no time for exploring this story: how she feels after such loss, what meaning for the story it has, how others react. The dragon we have been brought up with died within 20 seconds and we are aboht to forget it… if you call that perfectly written story, then lol.

      Would you also say that it makes a perfect sense for Dany to call Gendry Waters rather than Storm, as Baratheons bastards are called Storm? I guess so. And that’s dishonest and frustrating 🙁

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    39. Young Dragon,

      You know I wouldn’t have anything to say but this is an issue that bothers me a lot. I mean it’s been months and months, I’m completely over how much the show [email protected]@@@ up its characters, I’m over the plotholes and as I said elsewhere I watched it three times apart from the very last ep which I can’t stand. We shouldn’t seek perfection in this world, it’s not healthy, and this was just a show, it’s not worth it, you know? The books shall be much more meaningful and fulfilling. But this is going to be a rant, so if you and other people don’t want to read it, just don’t.
      Of course you’re right about the Starks; we had many bonding scenes starting season 6. They made the Starks much more interesting with their choices. Because let’s face it, “the pack survives” is just so boring for TV, right? The pack is about family, about togetherness. What’s interesting about everybody respecting and loving each other? Instead, they teased enmity, jealousy and dissention among them. Dark Sansa, poor northern-fool-the-entire-world-is-against-him Jon, emo killing machine Arya, emo I-know-what-you-did-but-I-don’t-give-a-damn-it’s-all-up-to-you Bran. So the bonding scenes we had corresponded to this. Alright. I have my objections, but in the end, it’s not my work, it’s theirs, so they did what they wanted with it and it’s all legit, they needed to make it worth and make money, no problem.

      (it’d be more in point to accuse them for lack of fantasy than anything else because the Starks are politicians working on principles much different than the Lannisters and those principles command the respect of their people, but they are politicians, and Jon is a politician applying what he knows in the books).

      What I mean is that we didn’t get a scene before the battle where the Starks were together in front of a fireplace realizing that they might die in a few hours. We didn’t get Jon to say “hey, you know what, I’ll do anything in my power to protect you because I love you all”, or Sansa/Arya saying “you’ll always be our most normal brother, please make sure not to die”. I don’t know about you, but I think the Starks deserved one such scene, because they reunited only under the threat that they might find themselves in the position to have to mourn again while they already lost so much.
      In my understanding they didn’t want to waste time in such scenes of the Starks because normally it would have been too spoilery; we had already had Sansa asking Jon if he was thinking with his [email protected]@@, and perhaps in a second scene he’d have to answer that damn question. The next scene we saw of all the Starks together led to Jon (re: Bran) telling them the truth about his parentage. But a bonding scene before the battle could have been kept emotional without revealing too much and I don’t understand why they didn’t get it. It was a disservice to the family we all loved so much in this show. Imo it’s a great omission.
      Instead, we got: Tyrion defending Jamie; Tyrion and Jamie talking nonsense in the WF courtyard; Tyrion and Jamie bonding in front of the fire (they get the we’re-going-to-die scene); Tyrion and Jamie talking about women in that inn where Bronn appears; Tyrion visiting Jamie as a prisoner; Tyrion finding Jamie and his sister dead. I get it, it led to the very last “twist” where Tyrion (finally) turned against Dany in the 11th hour and after the world had been destroyed with his complicity (don’t get me started).
      Why is it that the Lannisters deserved that arc? WHY?
      It wasn’t even fanservice, or, it wasn’t just that; it was because Tyrion was their favorite character (nothing to do with his book counterpart) as is made clear from the ending he has.

      Let’s recap, alright? What we know at least from the show. Pre-canon Tywin destroys an entire family; he’s cruel; doesn’t love his children, who find solace in each other for this lack of affection. Then they show up in WF. Jamie pushes the boy of the family out of the window to hide his dirty secret (re: crime); then someone tries to have that boy murdered (Joff, imo it was Tyrion, unresolved in the books); Joff has Mikka killed; Cersei has Sansa’s direwolf killed; Catelyn seeks justice for her son, she takes Tyrion prisoner; Jamie attacks Ned; Tywin unleashes the Mountain on the Riverlands and a war breaks out; Cersei has her husband killed; then Joff/Cersei execute Ned; they hold the Stark girls hostages; Robb is proclaimed king; Joff publically beats Sansa every time Robb has a victory; Tywin organizes the mass murder that was the red wedding; he marries Tyrion to Sansa; he gives the North to the Boltons (: note that by marrying Tyrion to Sansa he means to take the North, by kicking the Boltons out of WF, which could only be accomplished with another war against the North or with another murder); then Cersei blows up the sept; incest between her and Jamie goes on and by season 7 Cersei doesn’t care anymore and almost goes public about it; and Tyrion gets to bring an enemy with weapons of mass destruction to his country; oh, and Jamie threatens to throw a baby on the walls of Riverrun with the catapult, just to be able to return to his sister whom he likes [email protected]@@@@g.

      Does that cover it or am I forgetting something?

      The essence: they came into the house of the Starks as guests; they violated guest right, they murdered them, they tore them apart for protecting their secrets, their crimes and their murderous instincts, they tore the North apart, they conquered the North. All three of them, Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei, were complicit in all of it one way or another.

      This is the family they chose to show bonding. None of them answered for their crimes. NONE. Instead, they portrayed them as characters we should sympathize with.
      There was no public, or other, examination of throwing Bran out the window, no one answered who tf tried to have him assasinated, which started the entire story.
      Only Dany gets to have a say on him killing her father, and neither Brienne nor Jamie have to say anything about Aerys wanting to wipe out a city. Why? Because, heaven forbid, Dany should forget about it, just like she forgot about Euron’s fleet.

      Poor Lannisters, let’s feel sorry for them, after all, they loved each other!

      Ugh.

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    40. Jenny,

      What’s canon is whatever happens in the show, not the writers’ comments, and what happened in the show was that Danerys was ambushed and was taken unawares. They were hidden behind rocks to Dany’s right and shot Rhaegal through the opening. I don’t remember them circling, only Danerys and her dragons scouting. As to how they couldn’t see them from high up, it’s all about angles. She would have been able to see past the rocks, but the only way to spot Euron’s fleet was if she was right on top of them.

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    41. Young Dragon,

      Exactly; they shouldn’t have brought themselves in the position to have to explain in the behind the scenes videos, but they explained a lot. I mean, they had to explain almost each and every thing of the story, each and every little detail. They had to show things, not tell them in off screen time.

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    42. Efi,

      So basically they didn’t give you the scenes that you wanted, so that makes season 8 bad. That’s basically season 8 criticism in a nutshell. Again, what plot holes are you talking about? Someone else said something similar, but instead of listing plot holes, he simply listed things he didn’t like. That’s not what plot holes are.

      The enmity you’re talking about happened in seasons 6 and 7. Season 8 was much better about Stark togetherness with the scenes I listed. The assassination attempt on Bran was resolved last season. It was Littlefinger. As for Jaime saving King’s Landing not being mentioned, that would have made him more sympathetic, so I would think you would be happy about that.

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    43. Sandor: Would you also say that it makes a perfect sense for Dany to call Gendry Waters rather than Storm, as Baratheons bastards are called Storm?

      Dany grew up in Essos, in the idea that she is royal blood, remember ? She may not be familiar to the way bastards’ names are chosen (at least, I doubt it would be her priority in learning Westerosi history and culture).
      At worst, it could be understandable (actually, I don’t give a sh*t about such details! Come on, the showrunners have overworked for years to create this gorgeous series, I don’t nitpick on a bastard’s name!).
      At best, it is a clever way to show Daenerys has come to conquer a realm that she’s not longer actually part of. We heard several times in the show: you have to know your ennemies, you have to know the people/country you rule. Daario said it early when he offered her flowers; Tyrion said it too at some point; well, she doesn’t, not really.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Young Dragon,

      Here is the scene, I watched it before I posted to make sure I had it right, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_v6VINwkEk

      She flies to Dragonstone and veers left back towards her fleet, she doesn’t quite turn enough to be facing Euron head on, but he was visible to her. The scorpion bolt hits Rhaegal from in front of them and to Dany’s left, which means Euron has come up from behind her fleet. Then the ship appears from behind a land mass of some sort. Cut to the wide shot and and he’s actually just sailed between two cliffs to block their retreat, if anyone on Dany’s ship had turned around, they would have been visible, and they would have been visible to Dany. He didn’t shoot Rhaegal through an opening, he’d need a laser to pull that off from a moving ship, he was right behind them. I think having Dany totally focussed on Cersei, and therefore behaving completely irresponsibly makes more sense than that.

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    45. AnnOther: Dany grew up in Essos, in the idea that she is royal blood, remember ? She may not be familiar to the way bastards’ names are chosen (at least, I doubt it would be her priority in learning Westerosi history and culture).
      At worst, it could be understandable (actually, I don’t give a sh*t about such details! Come on, the showrunners have overworked for years to create this gorgeous series, I don’t nitpick on a bastard’s name!).
      At best, it is a clever way to show Daenerys has come to conquer a realm that she’s not longer actually part of. We heard several times in the show: you have to know your ennemies, you have to know the people/country you rule. Daario said it early when he offered her flowers; Tyrion said it too at some point; well, she doesn’t, not really.

      Gendry grew up in flea bottom and didn’t know who his father was, so his last name was Rivers. Yes, technically he could have changed it to Storm once it was known Robert Baratheon was his father, but I think that would have been odd for Gendry, and why bother. Actually, most people never used his last name and Dany could have just said Gendry and it would have been fine with me. Dany just made him a Baratheon anyway. Of course, I would have preferred Storm. It’s kind of like Gilly when she said she likes being called a “wildling”. It makes her sound a bit exciting and dangerous. Storm is an exciting sounding last name isn’t it.

        Quote  Reply

    46. Jenny:
      Young Dragon,

      Here is the scene, I watched it before I posted to make sure I had it right, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_v6VINwkEk

      She flies to Dragonstone and veers left back towards her fleet, she doesn’t quite turn enough to be facing Euron head on, but he was visible to her.The scorpion bolt hits Rhaegal from in front of them and to Dany’s left, which means Euron has come up from behind her fleet.Then the ship appears from behind a land mass of some sort.Cut to the wide shot and and he’s actually just sailed between two cliffs to block their retreat, if anyone on Dany’s ship had turned around, they would have been visible, and they would have been visible to Dany.He didn’t shoot Rhaegal through an opening, he’d need a laser to pull that off from a moving ship, he was right behind them.I think having Dany totally focussed on Cersei, and therefore behaving completely irresponsibly makes more sense than that.

      Slight amendment sorry, from the angle of Dany’s ships compared to Euron’s, it looks like Dany’s fleet maybe sailed into that open expanse of water from the other side of one of those cliffs, so Euron was behind them and to the the fleets right. He would have been waiting for them in between those two cliffs, and then caught them from behind (not sure how, they should have been visible as they approached the cliffs in the first place). That doesn’t alter their visibility once Dany reached Dragonstone though, for her and her fleet.

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    47. Reek,

      It’s an interesting one, didn’t they say it was Littlefinger in the show? Back in S7? I can’t quite remember. They like to swap things like that around, like having Joffrey order the murder of Robert’s b*stards instead of Cersei etc. I think its Joffrey but it’s never explicitly stated I don’t think.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Young Dragon,

      It’d be one f! scene. I don’t think it would have been difficult to show sth like that, and it would have completed the Starks’ story. And I think you are forgetting that Jon tried to pull Arya to his side (against Sansa) and that again in ep.4 Jon was with his back against the wall facing his siblings, which led to him revealing his secret. So they didn’t forget about dissention after all, did they? Not to mention that still viewers believe that Sansa shouldn’t have spoken to Tyrion, which made it look like “she wants to be queen”, i.e. against or instead of her brother, independently of what it did to Dany. (heaven forbid her majesty’s unsettled somehow).
      But it’s not about what I want, and I think you misunderstood what I wrote. This wasn’t a criticism on the entire season 8. I said that I watched it 3 times apart from the last ep., so this means that I like it until the end, which I don’t want to see again because it messes with my brain.
      However behind it as we saw it there’s structural choices that completely changed the story. Season 8 was their story, not Martin’s. Martin’s was about the Starks. This one was about the Lannisters, because they “sell” more. But in this choice, they’re messing with the final message. It’s the Lannisters that get rewarded in the end, in spite of what they did, because none of their actions were addressed in this season. Jamie dies for love, Cersei dies with someone she loves, Tyrion becomes hand of the new king.

      I am not going to discuss the plot again, sorry. People in this page have already discussed it, and I’ve written a lot when it aired.

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    49. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Meh implies indifference and/ or no opinion to speak of while “didn’t like it” is a firm opinion of dislike. Pick one and stick with it. Meh makes me sad. I didn’t like it it’s ok. I’m perfectly fine with that.

      Hah you switching back makes me think of Trump. All flip flops do these days. I need to watch less news.

      “Cheese” ☺️ You must be confusing myself with someone else. I know nothing of the sort. The scene was amazing in camera execution as well as in acting and writing. It fit perfectly and was the natural culmination of Bri’s arc. I didn’t think it was possible for that considering the moods of doom and gloom surrounding season 8 but it turns out her story was one of those that were supposed to be uplifting all along.

      Taking in fact the tragedy of Dany and Jon, of Jaime and lots of other supporting ones plus the awkward script ending of Bran and Tyrion, I think they finally nailed something to perfection and that is also ray of hope in a pretty nihilistic story ending.

      Of course I don’t think Bri’s knighting it’s cheese Brian, get a hold of yourself! Perfect is the word you’re looking for! 😋

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    50. AnnOther,

      I don’t give a lot of my time for such details too, but on the other hand, it is the greatest show of all times (at least in numbers).
      I would never ever say that it was intentional. It’s clearly a faux pas, since there is no indication as if it was a mistake on Daenerys side (example: Jon suggesting to Dany that she has made a mistake/ people looking at each other whispering about that/ Gendry being confused/ 1000 other possibilties).

      What I am trying to point out, is that in the idea of defending the show at any cost, people tend to see writer’s intentions anywhere a mistakes comes up. I don’t find it a healthy thing to do, as criticism is educational both for creater and viewer. It’s not the details that worries me, it’s the structure and build-up of the show that has been damaged greatly.

      It’s the fans that are usually the most toxic group of all, since they prefer the comfort zone 🙂 by the way, this happens A LOT in the game industry – and there, it is deadly for the quality. Most loyal fans welcome new games warmly, and they become ignorant and blind for any mistakes, even the biggest ones, that occurs. And thanks to that, game companies get a massively falwed feedback.

      Guess why D&D will probably never address the criticism – because all they would love to see are the best opinions they can possibly get. Mark my words: if they ever address the criticism, there would be something like: “we knew and we have said beforehand that some may be dissappointed. You can’t make a finale everyone would like. But there are plenty of people who really liked it”. They will absoltely ignore any flaws they made. And yeah, as far as there can be no finale everyone would enjoy, there still be a good piece of cinematography – and here they failed 🙂

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    51. I’m not going into the whole logistics about Dany’s fleet attack etc again, at least not now, maybe later time of the day. Overdone for me at the moment that debate.

      For that scene, yes that scene was brilliant, one of the best of the whole show. Dany’s knighting.

      And about the whole coffee cup nonsense. People overreact to much with that. What’s one of the best rating movies of all time? Yes the lord of the rings saga. Did we forget that Gandalf had a watch in the theatrical version? People weren’t losing their minds back then on that. They rectified it on the DVD/Bluray version. It could happen was what people though with such a big movie. With GoT it became an attack on the writers. (Not the directors no they were praised, but D&D). That’s all what I wanted to say. It happened, D&D rectified it, they did fix that mistake. No problem here.

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    52. Reek,

      Mostly because it would make much narrative sense and it would be a huge irony in the overall story. I am most probably wrong in this, but I’d love it if it were so. So, what follows is to be taken with a grain of salt.

      If I am not mistaken, correct me if I’m wrong, even Martin said somewhere that Joff was responsible for the assassination attempt? But if he did, it is too spoilery, because he consciously avoids talking about it in the books, so there it is left pending. But if anyone knows about this please point me to this interview and ignore the rest.

      In the books we don’t get to see who it is that ordered Bran’s assassination. We’re in Tyrion’s head, who thinks that the assassination was too clumsy to be Jamie’s or Cersei’s deed. But imo he says sth very significant in his trial at the Eyrie. “I’m not a violent man, even though I am capable of convincing others to do violence for me”.
      So, let’s face it. Jamie wouldn’t do it; he might have pushed Bran, but he’s a warrior and warriors don’t do stuff like that, they do stuff like his attack on Ned. This leaves Cersei, Joffrey, Tyrion. They all had access to the dagger, which was Robert’s. LF lied saying it was Tyrion’s. It was his, he lost it in a bet with Robert, who never bet for Jamie. And it was one of the three times Jamie was defeated in a duel by Loras Tyrell. Robert bet against Jamie, LF bet for Loras, so he lost the dagger to Robert. This is why Tyrion says in his trial (in the books, but I think the line resurfaced somewhere in the script of 8.6) “I never bet against my family”.

      [[In the show, the dagger resurfaces in the book that Sam reads at the Citadel, and then LF gives it to Bran. It is implied by this (apart from the fact that they were preparing Arya to kill the NK with it) that it was a Targaryen dagger. If it was, and it is so in the books, it probably belonged to Rhaegar. It remains bookwise to fill in the gap of how it reached LF, but it was probably via Robert for some service, some debt, or another bet, since it is logical to suppose that it was initially part of Robert’s spoils from the war against Aerys. This aspect is highly speculative, but if I’m right and it was Rhaegar’s, it’ll probably end up with Jon in the books.]]

      In reality Joffrey is the obvious choice among those three, and I wouldn’t go with the obvious simply because he’s twisted. I don’t think he could care less about Bran as his behavior with Tyrion shows. An argument I’ve seen somewhere had it “to make his father proud” because Bran wouldn’t be tortured anymore, but it’s not a good argument, because Robert wouldn’t condone such a thing, and because the line “hey, dad, I just tried to have your best friend’s son assassinated” wouldn’t happen in this fictional universe. Another argument, “to avenge Tyrion because Tyrion slapped him” also is feeble, because why would he do sth to someone else for Tyrion? Why wouldn’t he do it to Tyrion directly?

      Cersei? Hm, tough one. Would she? I don’t know, to be honest, but she’s really suspect because she’s the one the closest to Robert. She’s the one who didn’t care, while Jamie hesitated. She’s the best suspect after Tyrion. But in the books she’s too petty and not at all smart.
      After Bran’s fall, Tyrion, suspecting that his siblings have something to do with it, takes note of their reactions, and how uneasy they feel learning that Bran will survive after all. Now Tyrion always seeks his siblings’ love and affection and gets mad that he doesn’t have Cersei’s. By the end of adwd he wants to rape and kill her, and even though the same thought crosses his mind about Jamie, it’s undeniable that he loves him the most. That is Tyrion’s motive, to protect the one he loves. It is only later that he learns about Jamie’s role in the affair of Tysha. Conveniently enough, Tyrion sticks around the North and later passes by WF to see what happened. His trip to the Wall had been programmed in advance, it was Jon who urged him to see his brother, but when he arrives he asks Bran if he remembers anything. Bran says no, and I’m sure that was a huge ‘phew’ he kept inside.
      That’s too much blurring the waters if you ask me.

      While on the other hand an assassination of this sort is Tyrion’s mo. He did send Bronn to kill that singer for the song. And where did this line “I am capable of convincing others to do violence for me” come from at this stage, when nothing had yet happened?
      Did LF know? Did he suspect? He was a very clever man who seized the opportunity to create chaos. At least he was right about one thing; it was a Lannister, if not Tyrion.

      The thing is, the assassination attempt against Bran was left unresolved in the books for a reason, and Joffrey couldn’t have been that reason. So I think it’s a high probability that Tyrion was guilty for it and it will affect the overall story somehow.

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    53. Jenny,

      No, they didn’t. It was said that LF had Jon Arryn poisoned via Lysa, and then he killed her, which he did. In the show and in the books everybody suspects it’s Joffrey but in the end it’s unadressed in season 8.

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    54. Jenny,

      “It was also them expressing their feelings to each other without actually expressing their feelings, so it was still pretty subtle.”

      They had just done that perfectly in their previous scene. Unneeded imo.

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    55. TormundsWoman,

      Fair enough. But meh is not indifference to me, more like it was underwhelming but not horrible. I just felt Bryan Cogman had already done a very nice job of covering Brienne and Jaime earlier in the episode. It’s possible that a knighting scene could’ve worked for me, but not in the context it was presented. I just didn’t like that whole sequence of all those characters hanging out and Jaime all of a sudden being like “wait a minute, let me knight Brienne” seemed hamfisted. If it had been handled in a more subtle way it’s possible I might have liked it.

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    56. mau,

      I don’t think there are a lot of plot holes, you’ve got things like the bells meaning surrender, but back at the Blackwater Davos says ‘I’ve never known bells to mean surrender’. Direct contradiction. Could you call the lack of TPTWP a plot hole? It was mentioned late in S7, why bring it up to ignore it? Mel appearing at the battle from the same place the WW come from – the North, when she was in the South. Little things like that. Well, the PTWP isn’t a little thing but whatever.

      Mostly the season is full of plot contrivances, they used to disguise them much better. But because they had so much to get through in 6 episodes, the plot felt very bare bones, and characters were just dragged around because they needed to be somewhere or doing something else, it just didn’t feel like natural story progression anymore. Scenes cut in favour of indulgent dragon shots didn’t help, it might have been nice to see some the conversations between characters happen on screen as well. It would have felt more… what’s the word, smooth?

      If someone told me before the season started that these things would happen I would have reacted like this,

      Dany going ‘Mad Queen’ – Called it!
      Jon going beyond the wall – Huh, I thought he was a gonner once the NK was defeated, cool.
      Sansa as QITN – Makes sense
      Jaime and Cersei dying together – A bummer but fine
      Bran as King – Wait…. what?
      Bronn as Master of coin………… Is this a joke?
      Sam as archmaester…… but he’s with Gilly now? He hasn’t got a chain?
      Brienne as Lord Commander – Erm, isn’t she the future Evenstar?

      The main character ends are fine in theory, I just didn’t believe in the journey to those points. It’s not because I didn’t get what I wanted, I’m fine with most of it. Dany becoming the Dark Lord Sauron in 2 episodes was a bit tough to swallow. Apparently she would just bend Jon to her will…. based on what Varys? I could have done with….. more. I hope that is a fair thing to say.

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    57. Sandor,

      Exactly, I don’t think they’ll ever address any criticism, and if they do it’ll be in the direction of who killed the NK or sth similar, which is a detail.
      I’ve said elsewhere that imo the story as they showed it is coherent. Only it was another story, so the problems, if we stay to that, are structural and their choices messed with characters, arcs, meaning and message. I don’t think that any of it will ever be addressed.

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    58. Efi,

      If Tyrion was guilty for it, we wouldn’t get the thoughts we got in those chapters. And we don’t get the questions Tyrion asked himself who could have send the assassin towards Bran. Except if Tyrion has a secret second personality.

      We all think it’s Joffrey at the moment. Personally I don’t think he is responsible. Neither is Cersei or Jaime or any other Lannister.
      I think it’s more obvious who it is. The one that dagger belonged to. There was no bet, there was not exchange. Only an exchange to kill Bran. By LF. The only big question is, did LF do the exchange himself or convinced somebody to do the dirty work for him. In that case it could easily be Joffrey who has done the deal but it was LF who orchestrated it. He was the only one who would have gained a lot if Bran would have died. (except I tell this later) Didn’t LF not convinced Joffrey to also behead Ned?

      Another one to think of who could have done it was Varys. He didn’t know about the dagger, he didn’t know something? He knows every single thing that is happening with his birds. We also know he wants to create chaos, not big chaos with the war that had happened but he wanted chaos so that

      Griff could sit on the throne in the end.

      The only thing that I still think it’s LF and not Varys is one thing. Varys already stated in 1×05 and also in the first book that the lion and the wolf are at each others throat soon enough, but that it’s too soon. They are not ready yet.

      We are too worried about the one that did the exchange in person, which maybe Joffrey did as Tyrion suspects. But Joffrey is not that clever. Somebody put him up to this.

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    59. Efi:
      Sandor,

      Exactly, I don’t think they’ll ever address any criticism, and if they do it’ll be in the direction of who killed the NK or sth similar, which is a detail.
      I’ve said elsewhere that imo the story as they showed it is coherent. Only it was another story, so the problems, if we stay to that, are structural and their choices messed with characters, arcs, meaning and message. I don’t think that any of it will ever be addressed.

      Don’t forget ‘Themes are for eighth-grade book reports’.

      When I see it written down, I agree with you about the Lannisters, they really did get off lightly didn’t they? Perhaps not Jaime, but then they have been throwing him under the bus in favour of Cersei since season 4, he’s barely recognisable in the show. At least in the book he is literally on his way to face the consequences for Bran with LSH. Shame they cut out some of his most interesting character development. He was nothing more than Cersei’s backup dancer.

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    60. kevin1989,

      As for the Varys 1×05 scene with IM. It’s a shame that they excluded Griff in the show. That was a clear set-up for that. And it doesn’t make sense that in the end it was about Dany. Because that plan of Varys came out of the blue in 5×01. And even in the books his “taking Dany home to take the throne” was also only a means to an end to

      Griff on the throne

      Personally I wished GoT would have been aired after George ended all his books. But it would have had one major problem then which weight for me very much. We wouldn’t have Maisie for Arya if the show would have been produced only now. And how can we choose between Maisie and having a story that mirror the books more precisely? Her performance was so brilliant that I don’t think another actress could give us what she gave us. Still somebody else could have give a good enough Arya performance, but not that brilliantly as Maisie did.

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    61. kevin1989,

      LF wasn’t in WF when all this happened, Kevin. He wouldn’t try to murder his love’s son. I thought about it too, but he wasn’t, and he lied about the dagger — it wasn’t his at the moment, it was Robert’s. Robert of course wouldn’t do it. It’d be a huge twist if he did, lol.
      Yeah, people tend to think it was Joff for what Tyrion did to him, and because he’s twisted. I just haven’t seen sth too convincing it’s not Tyrion. Please alert me if you know sth.

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    62. Jenny,

      That Davos’ line can be used as plot hole only in obsesed nerd fandoms like GoT’s. For normal people, it’s not.

      With that “nerdy” approach to art everything falls apart. They just want to be in constant competition with the story. Art is about feelings. They don’t get this and everything is “objective” and mathematical to them.

      Just like nitpick about Cersei and Jaime’s death and how they could just move. It’s about emotions, seeing them in “mother’s womb” again at the end.

      These are the same people that complained about how Jack should have survived in Titanic. They have completely wrong approach to art and that’s why they are always angry about it. They don’t get it on fundamental level.

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    63. mau,

      I guess I’m of the nerdy variety then (i’m trying not to be offended by the inference that I’m not ‘normal’), I didn’t even have to look it up, and people asked for a plot hole. Its quite a big plot hole when you consider the consequences of those bells in Ep 5. Dany hears them, so she is aware of KL’s surrender and flips out. Should never have happened. I understand that some people are being overly pedantic, but I don’t think this is an example of that.

      I felt nothing about Jaime and Cersei anyway, their ending was complete nonsense in my personal opinion. I could have sympathised with Cersei if she hadn’t killed Missendei in the previous episode, and I didn’t even know who that other person was in the end. My personal view obviously, It works for other people.

      mau,

      ‘ The story lines move forward and dig deeper as the episodes progress but rarely circle back and almost never pause for reflection. When I asked Benioff and Weiss if it was possible to infer any overall intentionality to the upcoming 10 episodes, they sneered. “Themes are for eighth-grade book reports,” Benioff told me.’

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    64. Efi,

      About Joffrey: It’s already half confirmed how Joffrey reacted when Tyrion asked if he wanted a nice Valyrian dagger with Dragonbone hill with that sword. His reaction was: You … yes a dagger to match the sword good.

      What did he wanted to say? You know about it?

      Even Cersei and Jaime talked about who did send the assassin. We know it wasn’t them. They stated that they knew it was one of their children, and it wasn’t Tommen or Myrcella. Cersei even stated she knew it was Joffrey. Only thing other then Joffrey could be Cersei. Why would she tell Jaime it was Joffrey if it wasn’t him or her?

      About LF. No he wasn’t in WF. And the attack on Bran was done much later. It was confirmed that Cat sat besides Bran’s bed for 3 weeks. Meaning it could be LF who had something to do with it. We all know he had birds. Probably even one bird that was in WF at the time of Bran’s fall. Meaning LF could have gotten the word and convinced Joffrey to do it. There was time enough. Ravens fly fast. When Bran fell 1 days later LF could have had heard word about it. He could send a raven back that would have landed 1 days later to convince Joffrey to take Bran’s life. And it was already confirmed that LF lied about the dagger.

      The show even went with the LF was the one route. Which I think D&D heard from GRRM. It would also make sense that Sansa will find out about it and it will up her game to outsmart LF.

      About Tyrion: The proof that Tyrion didn’t have anything to with it is simple, his chapters. His thoughts. If he did it, his thoughts would be different. Yes his spoken words could be the same but not his thoughts. He is on a mission to find out the truth, not to put blame in somebody else’s shoes, if that was the case he would have made it public already. The only thing that Tyrion could be the one if he has a case of double personalities (which I doubt) or he had a case of “smashed my head against a wall once I send the assassin to Bran so I would forget I did it.”

      And who says LF wasn’t in Winterfell at the time? Or close by. We already know that there are 2 characters in the books who are sneaky. Who travel a lot to places without others knowing about it. That’s LF and Varys. Maybe we get a weirwood flashback with Bran where he sees LF in the north.

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    65. kevin1989,

      Now Varys would also be an interesting choice, but he’s supposedly for the innocent.
      No, I’ll stick to my version until it’s resolved, lol. A little suspense.

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    66. rhard:
      Loser D&D! Then why didn’t you showed up at Comic Con? 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 Coward sh*ts!

      Read the rules of Watchers on the wall. And then read your comment.

      Insulting is forbidden here. You can criticize them but not insult.
      And it’s ironic that you call them cowards behind the protection of your screen.

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    67. Efi,

      Suspense is coming.

      But I think with Bran’s assassin that a lot of characters could be involved. Maybe even IM, going behind Varys back and already creating chaos. Or Euron, or maybe even something to do with the great other.

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    68. kevin1989,

      No, LF wasn’t there, but I still insist he didn’t do it.
      Joffrey said that he’s no stranger to valyrian steel, but that’s hardly proof that he did it.
      Actually have you noticed that none of them thinks about the crimes they’ve done? Especially in the POV chapters there’s no thought about them. Jamie for example doesn’t once think that he pushed Bran out of the window. Conveniently, he’s not POV until the second book. Tyrion doesn’t think about killing that singer either, and if I’m not mistaken not of murdering his father and Shae.
      I read somewhere that it’s Martin’s choice of dealing with trauma, similar to the “unkiss” thing of Sansa or Jon’s “you know nothing Jon Snow”. The one writing that post argued that these are examples of people dealing with trauma, either changing it to be able to stand it (Sansa about Sandor holding a knife to her throat), or avoiding to think about it (Jon about Ygritte’s death). I’m not into psychology, to tell you the truth, so I don’t know.
      And you’re wrong about Tyrion going public when finding out the truth. He’d never do anything to hurt his family no matter their crimes. At least not in the first three books.
      Perhaps it’s just Joff, I don’t know. But I like this theory, lol.

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    69. kevin1989,

      I’m sticking with Joffrey for now, I think both Jaime and Tyrion figure it out separately. There could be a little twist on the way but I’m happy with Joff being the culprit.

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    70. Jenny,

      Actually I meant to tell you, I think there’s a good chance that Jamie survives ASOIAF. His crimes weren’t that great, compared to others’ at least. He’s on a true redemption arc, not like the show. He doesn’t like bloodshed, as is shown by his handling of Riverrun; he’s left Cersei and it’s doubtful that he’ll return. His severed hand is a symbol of the bond with her that’s been cut. His arc as it is, is the exact parallel to Jon’s and normally the two should at least meet first, and he’s got things to say to him about his true father.
      So perhaps he’ll survive. If he doesn’t, though, I guess it’ll be Martin’s way of juxtaposing family legacies. Tywin versus Ned. Who survives and how they live after that is a result of the legacy each of the fathers left to the sons. Will the Lannisters escape their fate? It’ll be interesting to see.

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    71. Jenny:
      mau,

      …Its quite a big plot hole when you consider the consequences of those bells in Ep 5.Dany hears them, so she is aware of KL’s surrender and flips out.Should never have happened.I understand that some people are being overly pedantic, but I don’t think this is an example of that.

      Jenny, this was my thought when I first saw it live. I didn’t get why she would do such a thing. But after rewatching her earlier scenes with Tyrion at Dragonstone, I don’t think Dany even considered Tyrion’s plea. Watch her when she’s on the throne at Dragonstone. Tyrion is pleading with her to let KL surrender if she hears the bells. She just looks at him and never comes close to agreeing. She has it in her mind that mercy is for the next generation. She says this a couple of times. She also has it in her mind that she has to rule by fear. She says this to Jon after Jon can’t handle sex with his Aunt. If it was just revenge against Cersei, she would have went straight for the Red Keep, but she had decided early on that she had to make an example and show no mercy so she could rule by fear. This would be something that people would remember (any people that were still living!) that no one would dare go against her in the future. Don’t get me wrong. I felt absolutely horrible at the moment I saw her make that decision. But after re-watching, I didn’t see it as a rash decision at all based on the earlier setup scenes. Tyrion was just talking to himself when he kept telling everyone once you hear the bells, the war is over. Dany wasn’t listening to him anymore. I encourage you to watch the Dragonstone scene again when Tyrion is trying to plead his case. I don’t think she even comes close to agreeing with him, and Tyrion is just hearing the sound of his own voice unfortunately.

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    72. I can believe their answer for the coffee cup, I didn’t see it until my third watch and only because I saw all the riots on Reddit about it and there it was. LOL

      But the person who owned that cup, hmmmmm.

      They still brought the books to life for me.

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    73. Efi,

      Yes, it would have only been one scene. If only the showrunners could look inside your mind and give you exactly what you want. Seriously, I was hoping for a scene between Arya and Danerys, but I’m not going to criticize D&D for not granting my wish. I judge the show for what is there, not for what isn’t. And the Stark story was completed.

      Jon was asking for Arya’s help on how to win Sansa over to Dany’s side. There wasn’t any dissension, at least not nearly to the extent as seasons 6 and 7.

      Martin’s story isn’t about the Starks and GOT isn’t about the Lannisters. They’re both ensembles, featuring many characters from several families. And the Starks are still separated in the books, with only two left. What makes you think they’ll get more screen time? Sansa, Arya, and Bran were barely given any chapters in Feast and Dance, with Arya being the only one out of the three to appear in both of them. And the Lannisters won in the end? Tyrion is the only Lannister left standing and he’s stuck in a position he doesn’t want. As for the Starks, Bran’s king, Sansa’s queen, Arya’s going on an adventure, and Jon’s finally at peace. They are all living extraordinary lives.

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    74. Sandor,

      A lot of us acknowledge that there were flaws with the final season, as there are with every season of every television show ever, but we don’t dwell on the flaws, unlike some of the other posters. We concentrate more on the positives of season 8, of which there are plenty. For me, the highlights of the final season make any of its flaws inconsequential.

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    75. Ten Bears,

      You’re going to have to help me out, I’m wracking my brain an I can’t think what ASNAWP stands for, is it something really obvious? lol

      Tron79,

      Oh so you thought it was pre meditated? I don’t think she was going to accept surrender from the army, but i’m not sure that she planned to kill all of the civilians, I think we were supposed to follow her thought process as she made the decision on Drogon.

      Anyway, the plot hole is connected to the bells ringing at all, in Season 2 it is established that bells don’t mean surrender, they are a call to arms, a wedding, a death etc. So Tyrion telling Dany to stop when she hears the bells would never have happened because that is not how they are used, and the KL people wouldn’t think to ring them. It’s not a story breaking thing, but by this point I had lost all patience and was just sat there thinking ‘oh FFS’. I think that is why people make a big deal out of things like the coffee cup, they are already fed up, and mistakes like that just make it worse.

      Efi,

      I’m still expecting the worst for him, but its nice to see someone say that he isn’t the same in the books. I feel all alone about it lol. I half wonder if D&D even liked the character, he is possibly the only character that they made worse, they had him kill his cousin, messed up the Sept scene, they even brought the Riverrun seige back to Cersei, when it was all about his promise to Cat. And this one gets me, he pushed the White Book out of the way so that he can have sex with Cersei in the White Sword Tower, in the book he refuses her for the first time because they are barely speaking and he won’t disgrace that place. And in the end we have Brienne filling his pages of the White Book, I didn’t think he was that fussed? I feel like they didn’t care about that character beyond his connection to Cersei and what he could do to make her more sympathetic.

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    76. Jenny,

      Oh geez. So sorry. I thought the acronym had been generally accepted here.

      ASNAWP = “Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess.”

      That term was inadvertently coined by talvikorppi before S8, when commenting that she didn’t want to see Arya’s story to turn into Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Fantasies. Though the description was intended to be somewhat derisive, other commenters (including Arya fanboys like yours truly) seized upon it, adopted it, and abbreviated it.

      Hence, “ASNAWP.”

      (And in a squeefest after S8e3, I temporarily expanded ASNAWP to ASNAWPTWP: “Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess That Was Promised.”)

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    77. Young Dragon,

      ”…Seriously, I was hoping for a scene between Arya and Danerys, but I’m not going to criticize D&D for not granting my wish….”

      ———-
      To be honest, I was 90% sure we were going to see a Dany-Arya scene in S8, after watching the teaser (?) and trailer shot of Arya looking up with wonder at dragons flying overhead – plus the wonderful show!-only S2 scene between Tywin and Arya in which she was extolling dragon-riding Targaryean women, e.g. Arya: “Visenya Targaryean was a great warrior…”
      Tywin: “She’s a heroine of yours I take it.”

      I really thought Arya and Dany would quickly bond. I did not expect Arya to climb aboard the Sansa “She’s not one of us” Train.

      I was disappointed Arya and Dany didn’t share a single scene. Arya wasn’t even present during the post-Long Night celebration when Dany raised a toast “to Arya Stark, the hero of Winterfell!”

      The only minor criticism I really have though is that nobody seemed to convey to Arya or the Northerners Dany’s heroic exploits in rescuing the Snow Patrol from certain death in “Beyond the Wall.” Tormund, Sandor, Jorah, Beric and Jon himself were on the brink of freezing or being torn to death when Dany swooped in to save them. Yet, (drunk) Tormund especially couldn’t stop yammering about Jon riding a dragon, but never mentioned dragon-riding Dany’s feats at the Frozen Lake.

      It would’ve been nice – and normal behavior – had Sansa and Arya at least expressed some gratitude to Daenerys for saving their brother’s life.

      Arya knew Sandor had gone beyond the Wall with Jon. (See S8e2 Sandor & Arya battlements scene.) I wonder if she knew exactly how the wight hunters made it back alive? It sure didn’t appear that way from the Winterfell gang’s reflexive dislike and distrust of Daenerys.

      Well, I guess I’ll just consider a “high thread count” Emilia Clarke-Maisie Williams character moment to be one of the casualties of the abridged Season 8. So much potential for a wonderful, mutual admiration scene between two refugees/warrior women with parallel stories…overlooked. (Not to mention my tinfoil fanfic scene of Dany taking Arya for a dragon joyride.)

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    78. Efi,

      about LF: We think he wasn’t there. How could we know he wasn’t hiding at an inn somewhere to get the news. And make sure he is back in KL before Eddard and Robert arrives. Their journey took more then a month. Where LF could go much faster by boat in a couple of days. He could have been close-by stirring the pot. Hearing from a village nearby that Bran had fallen and took his chance there and set everything in motion. And begone south on time to welcome Ned and Robert.
      Remember “Cat was also not in KL” but she was, but only in secret.
      Still I think that LF just got his information from 2 birds working together by raven. One send a letter from WF to KL. That one told LF, and he send a raven back. Or more simple, what if it didn’t matter that Bran had fallen, that no matter what LF already send somebody after one of the Stark siblings to stir up the put.

      But no matter how LF did it, I think for good writing he need to be it. LF story was all about controlling every single part of Westeros already in the background and creating chaos so he could take the throne in the end. We don’t know how far it reach. We know he pushed Joffrey to kill Ned. We know he can trigger Cersei’s worse impulses to make himself more powerful. He doesn’t even have problem killing. He is the one creating chaos. He was the one that benefited the most from Bran’s death or assassination attempt. It was also his own dagger. And it was even in the books confirmed that the whole Tyrion winning the dagger was false. So why did he lied there?

      About Tyrion himself. If he is in fact the one in the end, for me it would have been bad writing, and I would be glad what the show did. His thoughts about the investigation tells us one thing, he doesn’t know who did it and as you stated he wouldn’t tell the truth not only because it’s his family but also who would believe him? Meaning that the whole looking for somebody to blame is also out of the question, he is not accusing Joffrey to get himself of the blame and putting the blame on Joffrey, because it’s only in his head. So the only way this make sense if they went with the “amnesia route” and that is something I would hate.

      What Tyrion’s part could be in the whole part was maybe something more simple. He slapped Joffrey in the open, while he talked about giving the Starks his sympathy about Bran’s fall. He also overheard Robert talking towards Cersei about that it would be Mercy, and that Bran is suffering. Wait that’s the same words the assassin used towards Cat when he attacked Bran. It doesn’t make sense that Cersei send the assassin, she would not use the words like mercy and suffering. Joffrey could have said it what have happened that day, Tyrion’s slap and overhearing his father who he wanted to make proud which I talk about in the next paragraph. Robbert is the only one left, but that doesn’t also make sense, but he used the words.

      About Joffrey making his father proud. We came to learn what Robbert did to Joffrey, that he slapped Joffrey (Wasn’t that what activated Joffrey when Tyrion slapped him?) and that Cersei put an end to that. He also talked very low about Joffrey all the time. It make sense that a child of that age want to make his father proud and overheard what his father said and think that that needs to happen.

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    79. kevin1989,

      I also read that the theory that it didn’t matter if Bran had fallen is out there. Some think that LF send the assassin with the trip that Robbert took to the north. And that the idea was that one of the Starks would die, and Jaime got the blame. Which after the fall another plan was made.

      Another strange theory is that it was Bran himself, with his weirwood magic, to send him on it’s path.

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    80. I did a search about writers still writing in later life – so we may get those danged books.

      https://bookriot.com › 2013/03/15 › 8-writers-over-80

      https://www.huffpost.com › entry › the-writer-in-old-age_b_10226084

      https://www.writermag.com › blog › writers-age-70

      I admit I haven’t heard of all of these writers and I doubt I’ll be reading any work of Margaret Attwood* soon but the creative juices don’t necessarily run dry as the years mount up.

      * She’s probably a lovely lady – just her work doesn’t appeal to me.

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    81. Efi,

      That Jaime is going back to Cersei in the books is also not out of the question. The Brienne Jaime romance will start early in winds. And before winds ends he is back. And the answer is very simple, why did Jaime left Cersei. He didn’t left Cersei for her crimes, he didn’t left Cersei because he doesn’t love Cersei anymore. Why did he leave? Because he was angry at her for fucking the kettleblacks and moonboy etc and the way he thinks about it makes it clear, he loves Cersei still very much, so much emotion. I also think he will found out about Lancel soon enough. But how this return will go in the books I don’t know, my ideas:
      1. Just like the show back together and dying together. Probably not.
      2. Jaime left Brienne to go back to Cersei, but Cersei dies alone and he is too late. Which I personally would love.
      3. Cersei flee towards Casterly Rock.
      3a. She goes to Jaime not Jaime to her. Which brings them together.
      3b. Jaime hears about it that she has lost KL but escaped and he knows she goes to CR. He finally forgave her.
      3c. Some atrocity happened in KL when she escaped. Wildfire? Some died. He goes to her to kill her but in the end he couldn’t do it. Or maybe he could and he is the volanqar. But still his hearts belong to Cersei.

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    82. Tron79,

      In that moment she just was “shutting up” Tyrion. She already made up her mind.
      But I can see why people wished it was more stretched whole season 8 in 2 season part of 10/12 total. I think it would have been better if an episode would have ended with Varys death, this is how she treats people who conspire against her. And then the fear moment, making it a big cliffhanger where people had time to think about what she meant with that. Then when she did it the next episode we would have been given hope that she goes the right route and that hope being extinguished moments later. I also wished they went with a season 8a cliffhanger where just after the defeat of the WW we would see a moment where Dany shows her dark self in action. Petra’s idea of burning the II was perfect for that. She killed baddies there and just forgot the innocent people, in which we could see a change of her face there, first horror to seeing the death bodies, after that a change where her expression is power and justice, a face that says, now they won’t become rapers when they grow up. But I think D&D feared if we got 9 months of GoT with the promotion of Dark Dany that the next season would lose to much viewers.

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    83. Ten Bears:
      kevin1989,

      ”…And it’s ironic that you call them cowards behind the protection of your screen.”

      Touché, Kevin, touché!
      😎

      I really dislike it when people become personal and attack them personally, we don’t know them. Maybe they are horrible people, we don’t know, so we shouldn’t just and calling them names like losers etc. (My feeling is that D&D are great people that care about the fans and their workers but that’s beside the point). What I don’t have a problem with and is everybody’s right is that they attack the work of D&D, in this case Game of Thrones writing and producing. That’s what they got paid for by us. And that gives us amazing debates.

      And if people really think D&D had the last say in going to comicon they are mistaken. HBO owns GoT. D&D wants other projects to work on. Meaning that if HBO wanted D&D at comicon, they would have been on comicon. I still think HBO advised them against it.

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    84. kevin1989,

      Technically he didn’t leave of his own accord, Cersei sent him away because she is disgusted by him, ‘how could I have loved such a creature? He was my shadow’ basically he won’t murder people for her anymore, what a shame for her. He knows about Lancel, he torments himself with the idea that she has been unfaithful throughout AFFC, and only accepts the truth when Lancel begs him for forgiveness. In days past he would have killed Lancel, but he is so pathetic that he lets him live.

      I think Jaime and Cersei could/will probably die at the same time, like you I just don’t know how. But in his weirwood dream (which has been totally accurate) Cersei turns away from him in the crypts, and Brienne appears beside him with a matching glowing sword, and the two of them face what could be others, the light of Jaime’s sword goes out, but Brienne’s remains lit, she also has a ‘woman’s shape’ baby anyone? So my guess is Cersei dies first, then Jaime, perhaps even fighting the others, and Brienne will live. He will certainly have a relationship with Brienne for a time, there is a lot of foreshadowing about this, they may even get married (she dreams about having a Lannister cloak draped over her shoulders). Things like ‘unbidden his thoughts turned to Brienne’ the same language GRRM used elsewhere between lovers. And then ‘what do you like most in a woman my Lord?’ ‘Innocence’. And then there is the whole burning of the letter, he knows Cersei might die and goes with Brienne instead. My total guess is he returns to KL or CR after fAegon arrives to protect his King. He could absolutely realise that he still loves Cersei after all. As ever I am prepared to be 1000% wrong lol.

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    85. Jenny,

      I forgot that he already knows in the book. Lancel told him when Jaime met his aunt and uncle at Riverrun. Thanks for reminding me.

      And I love the way you think. Him going back towards KL to protect Tommen, but fell in love with Cersei over again.

      But too think off it, what if Jaime is in fact the Volanqar. But not because of him wanting Cersei death. And what if Brienne is in fact the beautiful younger woman. Now comes my crackpot theory:
      We know Brienne is taking Jaime towards LS. We don’t know how that will go. What I think will happen is that they escape all 3 from LS. They got married but LS finds them again. Pod will die. But to save Brienne, Jaime needs to give LS a pledge. He will kill the one that LS thinks is responsible for everything horrible that happened to LS family. Not Jaime, but Cersei. Jaime needs to make a decision, Brienne or Cersei.

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    86. Jenny,

      Yes, I think you have a good point that the bells may have never been used to signal surrender in the past. I was just researching it, and I found alot to back you up on that one. It was probably just something D&D came up with.

      While researching I also found some material that knocks down my points some about Dany’s decision. Here’s what D.B Weis said in one of the behind the scenes segments. This does back up one of my points that D&D did already give their explanations of their season 8 decisions though!! They really didn’t need more interviews after the season to talk about it IMHO. I personally missed a behind the scenes for the 6th episode though. But all of the other episodes had plenty of explanations. People just didn’t like them.

      “I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” Weiss says. “And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, when she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”

      I’m still going to say I see other things building to this decision (evidence be damned 🙂 ) But I have my reasons. The theme that Mercy doesn’t get you far in the real world (I hate that theme) looms large in GOT. Ned’s decision to tell Cersei that he knew the truth about her children so she would have a chance to flee was Ned’s doom. Sandor was teaching Arya “the way the world is” not the way she wants it to be. Again her Mercy would get her killed if she didn’t follow Sandor’s advice. And GRRM even calls Arya “Mercy” in one of his sample chapters for WOW. Mercy is a big theme throughout GOT. Was it merciful for my country to drop the bomb on Japan? Did that save millions of future lives? Those are difficult and controversial conversations. Was it right that the allies firebombed Dresden (a non military target when the war was already won) killing thousands of civilians just like Dany in Kings Landing? The allies thought that this would demoralize the country and destroy their beloved cultural central that they held dear to their national identity. I still will say that I saw the signs of Dany’s “rash” decision. I think there is plenty of evidence that she was no longer listening to Tyrion. I think if it was all just personal she would have went straight for the Red Keep. Some was for Missandei who’s last word was “Dracarys”.

      I will say that one of the less satisfying things for me over the years is that many of my logical well thought out 🙂 theories usually ended up not being “the way it is” as Sandor would say. D&D usually struck down my theories with something much more straightforward and less magical. Tyrion being a third rider was one that made lots of sense to me, but they never went there. I’m hoping GRRM does go there. I like a good mystery with breadcrumbs along the way. But I can still appreciate the way D&D did it, and perhaps me reading in some things from previous scenes helps me do that. Unfortunately, you may be right that D&D just has a more straightforward explanation that she just snapped. Oy vey.

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    87. kevin1989,

      I am so into Brienne being the younger more beautiful woman, you have no idea! I just can’t believe GRRM would be so kind to me. But yeah, I can see him being off with Brienne, I can even picture a Quiet Isle wedding, you don’t start banging on about men and women only sleeping under the same roof if they are married for nothing. But in the end he will have to return to his family, he acknowledges that he will have to face Cersei eventually in ADWD. When everything is falling apart he and Cersei may cling to each other as they did in the show (I hope not but it’s very possible). Your LSH theory is a good one as well I think, I’m filing it away for future reference. I’m still sure Jaime is the Valonqar, GRRM will have to throw in a big twist for it to be someone else. Even though Jaime has turned his back, he is still pretty obsessed with her, he’s still coming to terms with the fact that their whole relationship was a lie. Which could also lead to the Valonqar, blimey that would be grim, if he kills her in a jealous rage. Too much like Tyrion perhaps?

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    88. Tron79,

      I’ve never been someone who claims S8 is full of plot holes, but I do have a petty sense of pride about this one teensy hole I found lol. It did make for a good scene with the people yelling ‘ring the bells’ though, it was quite tense even if it was technically wrong.

      I think with Dany (and I could be waaay off base here, she is not my area) she will destroy KL, because fAegon is on the throne and the people love him, she is normally welcomed with open arms and I think they will tell her to do one. She actually will have a reason to resent the people of KL then. I think it’s possible that she burns Meereen as well to be honest, she has tried all manner of political routes and been faced with a plague, a hideous marriage and a rebellion, I could see her going ‘f*ck this’ and wrecking the place. The people of Westeros really would be scared of her then, there are already wild rumours about her bathing in blood and what not. Tyrion won’t mind in his current headspace, he’s having a lovely time imagining raping his own sister.

      In the show though, they didn’t really introduce the turn well enough, or early enough I should say, and when they did, people still defended everything she did, it was too late. i debated this with a lot of people pre S8, I was convinced that she would never be Queen, and would probably end up as the ‘villian’. So I suspect that they had her make this decision so that nobody could possibly defend her anymore, it had to be so bad that she just had to die and Jon wouldn’t be automatically vilified. I imagine it will be much less black and white in the books.

      Agree about mercy as well, that’s an interesting point, I have to hope that someone in this thing will show mercy and be rewarded for it somewhere. Please George its too depressing.

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    89. Young Dragon: And the Lannisters won in the end? Tyrion is the only Lannister left standing

      This, and Cersei & Jaime lost their three children, two killed in front of Jaimie’s eyes, and Tommen commits suicide: as a mother myself, I can’t imagine a worst punishment.
      Tyrion killed his father, is indirectly responsible of his siblings’ death, his 2 dear nephews (& 1 not so dear one) died. He killed Shae, lost Dany, his illusions, his good opinion of himself, and his lust for life. He may have “won” (he is hand of the king, like his father was), but at a bitter price.

      Efi: But in the books she’s too petty and not at all smart.

      That’s what would make me bet on Cersei or Joeffrey! Have a cut-throat use an expansive, recognizable dagger is either stupid (so, Cersei & Joff may be an option) or a message (hence the LF option; I agree the “too soon” argument discharges Varys). Hope we find out in the books one day (though GRMM maight leave this point open).

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    90. Jenny,

      They said that when they were criticized that there is not unique theme for every episode, but it feels they are jumping all over tha place. And then they said their job is to adapt the books. They can’t think about theme of every episode if there is no thematic connection between Arya’s and Jon’s storyline at that point in the books.

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    91. Jenny,

      It is depressing the way they left the value of mercy, but Jon tried to argue that we do need mercy in any new redeemed world (right before he stabbed Dany). Luckily, I am left with seeing the smiles on the Wildling childrens’ faces as they look up at their new KBTW (King Beyond the Wall). Unlike others, I found hope in Jon’s ending. Do I also hope that one day Arya will find her way to the North to pay her brother (cousin) a visit. Yes for sure! But I just keep seeing the smiling Wildlings who are happy to have him lead them to their new life where spring is coming. A life filled with mercy and hope. OK. I know I’ll probably find a quote from D&D that will dash my happiness about Jon being the new KBTW, so I won’t research it! Thanks for your replies.

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    92. Did…did he compare to season 8 to making a Persian carpet.. ..

      What he should have said is…”When you are making a shitshow, a coffee cup is just random plastic debris in the flow of effluent.”

      That works.

      The coffee cup became a symbol of the lack of care in the story and to the characters and to the viewers. It was a symbol of incongruity of the fit of the writing to the characters. So no wonder they find it amusing.

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    93. Ten Bears,

      Yeah, I really wanted Arya to have some scenes with people she’d never had scenes before, but at the same time, I have to wonder if maybe it was better for her to build upon the relationships she already had rather than try and create new ones in a short amount of time. In the end, I think it made her arc stronger.
      Ten Bears,

      That’s probably my favorite Arya/Tywin scene.

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    94. kevin1989,

      That’s a theory I subscribe to. I think Littlefinger first sent the letter to make Catelyn and Ned suspicious of the Lannisters and then sent an assassin to murder one of their children to jumpstart the war.

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    95. Mango,

      This tells me more about the viewers than it does about the showrunners. The coffee cup would have gone completely unnoticed if someone didn’t scroll through the episode, shot by shot, looking for mistakes, and then try to pass off those mistakes as legitimate criticisms. And they spent an extra year getting the final season just right, so they care very much. However, they’re human and are capable of making mistakes.

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    96. Tron79,

      ”…The theme that Mercy doesn’t get you far in the real world (I hate that theme) looms large in GOT. Ned’s decision to tell Cersei that he knew the truth about her children so she would have a chance to flee was Ned’s doom. Sandor was teaching Arya “the way the world is” not the way she wants it to be. Again her Mercy would get her killed if she didn’t follow Sandor’s advice.”
      _________
      Arya, Sandor and mercy…That made me flash back to this scene…

      S3e9 Arya, Sandor, and the Pork Merchant heading to the Twins

      at 0:00 – 1:45

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll8hB7ywcYI

      Sandor clobbers the pork merchant, draws his knife and is about to kill him, when Arya begs Sandor “Don’t kill him! Please! Please don’t.” Sandor relents, but says: “You’re very kind. Someday it’ll get you killed.”
      And then…Just as the pork merchant is regaining consciousness, Arya whacks him over the head, knocking him out again (but probably saving his life in the process.)
      Bonus: Watch Sandor’s double-take as Arya walks by him (at 1:43).

        Quote  Reply

    97. Tron79,

      You are wise! Don’t research it lol. I like to think that Jon has hope, in book canon he can only be somewhere around 20? So he has a long life yet to lead and eventually he may find some peace. The Stark’s going their separate ways was so sad to me, all that time apart and then in the end they chose to go off alone. I also like to imagine that as soon as the Unsullied left, Jon’s sentence was revoked and he could visit WF from time to time.

      Pretty much every friendship/relationship failed in the end, which was also super sad, what is the point in winning if you have nobody to really share it with? It just felt like an empty victory and didn’t really give me ‘bittersweet’ it felt very bitter, especially with Big Brother on the throne. I don’t know, the last episode was just a huge downer for me. Sam and Jon didn’t even say goodbye (nothing with Davos either)…. *cries* They love a double act in GOT and Jon/Sam was the first one I invested in. They gave me blatant Sam/Frodo vibes and it hurt to see them part. I know that they said goodbye in Ep 4 but it didn’t exactly have the impact of Sam/Frodo at the Grey Havens. Sorry I am rambling now. Odd decision imo.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Young Dragon,

      D&D are not humans. They are monsters and they should burn for killing One True Queen.

      And not having Jon kill Night King in epic duel was monstrous crime!

      I hope Netlix and Lucasfilm fire them and they are forced to reed Broken Man speech until the end of time.

      It was not the ending we deserved!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    99. As for the claim of liking the knighting scene between Jaime and Brienne. Sigh. Any value from that scene was wiped out by the subsequent events between these two and the pathetic end to Jaime.

      For that scene to work it had to be between two persons with a great deal of mutual respect, honor and deep regard. It worked when we saw it because at that time we believed that to be true.

      Unbelievably after that scene, the story savaged them both. They were both demeaned, particularly Jaime, wiping out any value in their interactions over the previous 7 seasons.

      Jaime was tasked with sneaking out of her bed without bothering to tell her he was dumping her. To do that he would need to be an honorless slimeball without any respect or affection for her. That attempted “ghosting” pretty much wiped out the context needed to support the knighting scene.

      However, the diminishing started before that. Brienne was demeaned the extent that another character inquired about her genitalia. In 8 seasons, Tyron had never shown that kind to disrespect to Cersei. No-one has asked him about Shae genitals. And Shae was a whore.

      I could not be the only surprised when Brienne announced that she was taking a “piss’. Can imagine Sansa, Cersei, Margery, Cat saying that? Perhaps Arya?

      In one of her few scenes, we learned that Brienne has suffered rejection by men as she told Pod – but that did not stop her getting more piled on. She was even tasked with writing up her own rejection in White Book. I am pretty sure that Jaime had written her name into his story in the White Book but in this scene, for some reason, even that acknowledgment of her was deleted. Then she ended up a glorified security guard to Bran, taking Meera’s spot. She is heir to her house, but she did not even get to do that..

      Jaime – where does one start? Jaime was depicted as a completely failed human being, wiping out 7 seasons of story, and given one of the most humiliating deaths in the series.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Young Dragon,

      True that. But what if Littlefinger was involved in the poisoning of Jon Arryn as well, not because Jon discovered that the Baratheon seed is strong, but because little Robin Arryn may not be his son. What if he is Littlefinger’s son?

        Quote  Reply

    101. Jenny:
      Tron79,

      You are wise!Don’t research it lol.I like to think that Jon has hope, in book canon he can only be somewhere around 20? So he has a long life yet to lead and eventually he may find some peace.The Stark’s going their separate ways was so sad to me, all that time apart and then in the end they chose to go off alone.I also like to imagine that as soon as the Unsullied left, Jon’s sentence was revoked and he could visit WF from time to time.

      Pretty much every friendship/relationship failed in the end, which was also super sad, what is the point in winning if you have nobody to really share it with?It just felt like an empty victory and didn’t really give me ‘bittersweet’ it felt very bitter, especially with Big Brother on the throne.I don’t know, the last episode was just a huge downer for me.Sam and Jon didn’t even say goodbye (nothing with Davos either)…. *cries* They love a double act in GOT and Jon/Sam was the first one I invested in.They gave me blatant Sam/Frodo vibes and it hurt to see them part.I know that they said goodbye in Ep 4 but it didn’t exactly have the impact of Sam/Frodo at the Grey Havens.Sorry I am rambling now.Odd decision imo.

      Yes sad for me as well, since the idea of the “pack surviving” seemed like they would stick together and not have to all go their separate ways. Speaking of LOTR, much of the final throne room scene was directly taken from LOTR. The idea of Dany being driven mad by the IT (for example) was a direct parallel. I’m not a LOTR expert by any means, but it made me want to go back and at least watch the movie again to watch the ring melt, etc. BTW, I watched the movie “Tolkien” recently on either Amazon or maybe it was Hulu. I found it very emotional, and I was drawn into the world that Tolkien lived that led to his LOTR stories.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      This tells me more about the viewers than it does about the showrunners. The coffee cup would have gone completely unnoticed if someone didn’t scroll through the episode, shot by shot, looking for mistakes, and then try to pass off those mistakes as legitimate criticisms. And they spent an extra year getting the final season just right, so they care very much. However, they’re human and are capable of making mistakes.

      If D&D spend an extra year writing this then it was a wasted year. Maybe they spent an afternoon or so?

      I am not fussed about the coffee cup. It was a mistake. However, I can see what it symbolized to many. If this was an excellent well-crafted ending then everyone would see it as a funny incident.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Mango,

      I’m sorry, but are you actually trying to make me cry? Don’t forget shaming a high born lady for being a virgin. But the ‘what is she like down there?’ line makes me legitimately upset, and this is one of their favourite characters? She should know by now that ugly women don’t get hot guys in fiction, stay in your lane honey. Romance for a character like that is a joke… in walks Tormund Giantsbane ugh. I know that Gwen got very upset and had to go for a walk when she read it, no wonder, it was a brutal end to that character. This is the one plot that I truly truly hate, Bran baffles me, but this one hurts.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Jenny,

      As a character Jaime was treated with great cruelty by the storytellers. He was problably the sole character that was so completely humilated.

      Not even Ramsey’s was so demeaned.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Jenny:
      Mango,

      I’m sorry, but are you actually trying to make me cry?Don’t forget shaming a high born lady for being a virgin.But the ‘what is she like down there?’ line makes me legitimately upset, and this is one of their favourite characters?She should know by now that ugly women don’t get hot guys in fiction, stay in your lane honey.Romance for a character like that is a joke… in walks Tormund Giantsbane ugh.I know that Gwen got very upset and had to go for a walk when she read it, no wonder, it was a brutal end to that character.

      It was brutal.

      She was treated like she did not matter. Large, ugly woman – just to make fun of, right?

      Then they have the nerve to say that was their favorite scene. Sick joke, that!

        Quote  Reply

    106. Mango,

      I guess it’s Ok though, because now she gets to give up her land and title and be celibate for the rest of her life, dreams of being a wife and mother be damned. It’s what she always wanted…. oh wait. I’m very protective of Brienne, she is such a pure soul, and she has been treated so badly for her whole life. I don’t see this as a happy ending for her, even though we are supposed to think so, she deserves everything. At least she is alive and a Knight, it could be worse.

        Quote  Reply

    107. Jenny:
      Mango,

      I guess it’s Ok though, because now she gets to give up her land and title and be celibate for the rest of her life, dreams of being a wife and mother be damned.It’s what she always wanted…. oh wait.I’m very protective of Brienne, she is such a pure soul, and she has been treated so badly for her whole life.I don’t see this as a happy ending for her, she deserves everything.

      Brienne’s end story is breathtakingly bitter.

      Ugly girls can always hope for a solid career as a spinster dedicated to serving.

      We know life is unkind but geez….

        Quote  Reply

    108. Mango: If D&D spend an extra year writing this then it was a wasted year. Maybe they spent an afternoon or so?

      I am not fussed about the coffee cup. It was a mistake. However, I can see what it symbolized to many. If this was an excellent well-crafted ending then everyone would see it as a funny incident.

      I’d have to rewatch with a stopwatch to see if this is true: I read somewhere that despite the extra year to write the six-episode final season, much of the screen time was taken up with people just..walking around, with no dialogue.

      I am not whinging. I’m just curious if this is accurate.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Mango,

      I see you are as positive as always.

      But what does it matter that a coffee cup is being shown. With a show like GoT, how big it is, things like that happen. If you look up those kind of mistakes from critical acclaimed movies, you see that it’s not a big deal if it happens. Lord of the rings had a watch in it, Gladiator had a plane in it. And many more movies had mistakes like that.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Mango,

      I see you really didn’t get Brienne as a character, and what her real struggle was. The struggle that she had suffered all those years was gone in the end. And that’s even more shown that she was at peace when she wrote Jaime’s story in the white book, but I think that’s because Brienne understood Jaime, like many viewers didn’t.

      As for Brienne why her ending was brilliant and in fact completing her journey and making her whole as a person. Her struggles were:
      1. Not being accepted as a warrior. She was a woman and she should be a lady. Not a knight, not fighting. She never got recognition from that and only mocked because of it. That resulted in her not fitting in who she was. Lot has changed through the course of the show. She learned her strength as a knight and that’s nothing to be ashamed of even if you’re a woman. Her interaction with Pod, Jaime, Cat, Sansa, Arya (7×04) and more she have learned that. In 8×02 even when Jaime wanted to knight her, and Tormund and everyone else showed her that she deserved to be a knight, she had doubts, they are mocking her again, she can’t be a knight, she is a woman. She looked at Pod somebody who she trusted/trusts with her struggles. He let’s her know, it’s ok, you deserve this. And she finally believed in herself. Then Jaime knighted her and a weight has been lifted of her shoulders. She can be a knight now and they believe in her.
      And you stated that she should have been the lady of her house. That made it clear to me you didn’t understood Brienne at all. She is just like Arya with that, she doesn’t want that. Like we saw in 2×03 she wants to be a kingsguard. And she finally got it.

      2. Her second struggle is her appearance. She was mocked because of how she looked “Brienne the beauty. A great joke.” She never though she was worth it, nobody ever wants her. The struggle is not man doesn’t find her attractive, the problem is that she herself doesn’t find herself attractive. She hates herself for that, how she looks. Then she met Tormund, she never wanted him because she was already in love with Jaime, but somebody though she was attractive. She maybe didn’t like it that it came from Tormund but even that helped her. Then Jaime showed her that she was attractive as a woman. And she got what she longed for. And that longing is not a man to keep her bed warm. No she finally believed that she was worth is as a woman, that she was beautiful, that she could be loved. And another struggle was lifted off her.

      After that Brienne’s biggest struggles was gone, and she could finally be herself. She finally could feel great in her own skin, in her deeds. Then Jaime left her, she was heartbroken, like anyone who would be left by their loved ones. Nobody wants that, not if you are in love like Brienne was with Jaime. But here comes the big conclusion that people tend to forget. Jaime leaving didn’t make her doubt herself with her deeds, she can be a knight and be respected. And him leaving didn’t make it that she didn’t believe she was worth it to be loved. Jaime did love her and found her attractive, even if he left, she was loved. In the end she still believed she was worth it as a woman. And you can maybe say that Jaime should have stayed with her because she deserved to be loved till the end of her life, yes she deserved that. But what matters is that in the end, she loved herself.

      “Brienne the beauty, this time not a joke, but worthwhile.”

        Quote  Reply

    111. Iul,

      We know that Lysa was once pregnant of Bealish but drank moon-tea because Hoster pushed her to drink it. He confessed that to Cat if I’m not mistaken.

      Tron79,

      Lord of the rings is for me still one of the best movies ever made. But as for the ending. People tend to forget that you can only make 36 different kind of endings (If I’m not mistaken it was 36 or was that 36 kind of stories?). There are not more kind of stories. That means that no matter what GoT would have an ending that looked like that ending of that movie. And the ending of LotR is a classic ending for a fantasy show. To end every character in the right way. There is also the “Years later where the main characters have children of their own” ending. Many shows have that scene as the last scene of their saga. And the ending of LotR is also one of them. It ends with “home, where the heart wants to be”.
      But GoT had a more ending of freedom. With Jon. He became king beyond the wall. But he was a king that had no rules for his people. Except maybe things like, not stealing or raping. But that freedom is also very depressing to think of, because we all need some kind of structure or purpose in life to survive. Total freedom can also be depressing. We need work not only for food but also for structure.
      But for me the only thing I disliked with the ending of GoT was the book part. I liked the Brienne writing the white book. But not the song of Ice and Fire book with Sam and Tyrion.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Mango,

      Do you really believe woman can only be happy if they have a man or a family? Why does a woman need a man to be happy?

      I still cannot understand that many thing a woman can only be happy if they ending up with a perfect relationship, like that’s the only thing there is for woman. A Man, children. But a man can be happy if he can have his dreamjob. Or become king. Or just loving himself. But a woman always needs a man or children.
      Maybe a woman can also be happy without a man or children?

        Quote  Reply

    113. Jenny,

      You need to look up a graph from the big movies like LotR, and look up how much dialogue there is per minute. I watch lotr more then 40 times and I can say that it had less dialogue per minute then season 8 of GoT. Lot’s of slow paces scenes. But that movie is brilliant.

      Now look at all the mediocre shows out there like CSI. They got more dialogue per minute then GoT season 1 got.

        Quote  Reply

    114. kevin1989,

      I know this isn’t aimed at me, but if I may add my two cents, I agree that she was mocked for wanting to be a knight because of her gender, but this goes hand in hand with the mockery she received for being a woman in the first place. She is basically Sansa from Season 1 with a sword, she loves dancing and songs and tales of great knights, she dreams of singing to Renly, the woman is so soft it kills me. She is naive and so used to mockery that she pledges herself to those who show her kindness (Renly and Cat). She only wanted to be a member of Renly’s KG to be close to him, she knew it would never happen but she loved him anyway and that was enough. She found mockery as a Knight easier to bear than mockery as a woman, so she pushed it all aside. She didn’t dare to hope for anything else, even though she secretly dreamed of being taken away to some handsome lords castle. I don’t remember her rejecting her title, only that she felt like such a failure to her father, she couldn’t stand to be there anymore, that is soooo sad. Omg, and the bet, the bet!!!! Her existence breaks my heart.

      Tormand’s attention didn’t help her in the slightest, he didn’t even know her name, and Jaime decided that he would rather die in the arms of his sister than live with her, that is in no way going to make her feel appreciated as a woman, that half of herself was once again treated terribly, and she was hurt in the worst way possible. So in the end, she was right about herself all along, she is better off living as a Knight only, and giving up all hope for more in life. I’m sure she can find happiness with that situation one day, but that is not exactly the fulfilment of her dual arc imo. if Jaime had left under different circumstances, sure, but as it is? I do not agree that she has now become comfortable with gender, she is a cracking knight though. Obviously I don’t subscribe to ‘all women need a man’ that is silly, but since it’s like half of her character, it’s kind of important for her to reconcile the two halves. I understand that you feel the show did that, but I don’t myself.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Jenny,

      I forgot to say as well, it does put a different slant on things when you remember that she is only 19 in the books. For 40 year old Brienne in the show, it’s not too bad. But if this happens to 21 year old Brienne in the books? oof.

        Quote  Reply

    116. kevin1989,

      It was a bit funny when Sam let Tyrion know he was left out of the ASOIAF. But I get what you’re saying. I loved Brienne’s scene where she filled in Jaime’s pages.

      I’m not sure if the freefolk have no rules. They do have the freedom to go for what they want. But they still need to eat so they have to come up with some structure to provide for themselves.

        Quote  Reply

    117. Jenny,

      I agree with you about that her being a woman weights more heavily. But being left by Jaime for Cersei is probably (Say it that way I only look at it with my own experience) something she can give a place. She probably felt horrible that he left her for Cersei again. But I think at the same time she knew it was inevitable. Even their first night together she knew who Cersei was to Jaime, and she also knew Cersei was pregnant by Jaime. But still she felt happy she was with him at that moment. That even if he eventually left her for Cersei again, she was being loved at the moment, because of who she was and even how she looked. Jaime looked past her shortcomings (like every person has that’s love). And I think deep down she also knew once Jaime left, that no matter what Jaime cared for her. He explained it to her, Brienne is honorable, Cersei is toxic, so is he. That made it also known to her, that him leaving her doesn’t have anything to with her, but everything to do with him not loving himself. He loves Brienne, but he doesn’t love himself. So he only deserve a toxic person like Cersei, in which he doesn’t have to hide his darker self.
      And the look of Brienne in the writing the book scene made it all clear for me. She wrote it to give it a place for herself, to put Jaime to rest so she can move on. And then she made a choice how she wanted to fill in her life.
      And I think her choice was not family vs my dream job at that moment. I think it had more to do with being close to the people she cared the most about and who know her. Pod is one of them.

      And who knows, maybe Bran relieve her of her duty once she finds love again.

      But I think in the end Brienne loved herself for who she is. And for me that’s more important.

      As for my experience put it in spoilertags, if you wan’t to read it just look up the spoiler.

      When I was in my teens I wasn’t really a handsome boy. I even disliked that of me and was very insecure. It took me till I was 20 till I finally felt like I could take that step. I learned a boy who I got my first relationship with. He loved me very much and I was the only one he had, he got sick with cancer, I was there for him and cared for him. Once he was better he cheated on me with one of my friends. And in the end that broke me and even if I wanted to stay with him and I tried I couldn’t. And the worst part was I have given him a second chance and he left me. I felt horrible the first months. After that better and even if I was happier before it all happened, I still was happier after everything then before him. I felt not that I was ugly anymore, and I knew I was worth it after that, only not with him. Now I have a new relationship that works great, and better bonding then before even when at the moment then I though that I would never be happy again. And I learned one thing. It doesn’t matter with whom you are with, and it doesn’t matter what shitty things happened in the past. What matters in the end is not if you are happy with the person you are with. What matters is that you are happy with yourself. That you love yourself for who you are. And that you even can be happy alone, and if you can’t be happy alone you never will be happy with somebody else. The first step is loving yourself.

        Quote  Reply

    118. kevin1989,

      I don’t know what to say, I’m so happy for you now but wow, that is a rough road. I’m glad things are better for you now. I think regardless of appearance, anyone who has deep insecurities connects to Brienne on some level. She is just so beaten down by society, and yet maintains this incredible ability to love and trust people, it’s a special thing. It’s shown as she is writing in the book, that she can still care about this person who broke her heart enough to preserve his memory. She is the one character who I pray gets to feel truly loved, something she has never felt, not even from her own father. The good thing about dear old dad though, was that he let her do what she wanted, thank God, imagine her living with Tywin, I shudder to think what 70 year old man she’d be married to.

      Having read that, I can understand your interpretation of it, and your certainty that she knew she was loved does go a long way to making it less heartbreaking. But that is where I have my doubts, because they showed Jaime in bed afterwards clearly doing the classic ‘oh sh*t what have I done face’ and being in the KG means that she can never try again. The choice has been made, unless Bran changes the rules, which we don’t know. I think that’s partly why Ep 4 annoys me so much, the time frame is difficult to track, and we never got to see her in this relationship, was she happy? Was she loved? I have no idea, instead they had Tyrion ask about her vagina, and then Jaime tried to leave in the middle of the night without telling her, its horrible to me. I can’t see the bright side. She is certainly respected as a Knight, but she will never be a lady, even though she always wanted to be.

        Quote  Reply

    119. kevin1989:
      Mango,

      Do you really believe woman can only be happy if they have a man or a family? Why does a woman need a man to be happy?

      I still cannot understand that many thing a woman can only be happy if they ending up with a perfect relationship, like that’s the only thing there is for woman. A Man, children. But a man can be happy if he can have his dreamjob. Or become king. Or just loving himself. But a woman always needs a man or children.
      Maybe a woman can also be happy without a man or children?

      Both men and women can live a happy single life. Nothing wrong with that.

      But Brienne wanted love. That was her preference.

      And besides love, she had suffered rejection. Her conversation with Pod tells us about her suffering. No one wants rejection.

      I am not sure what is the point to the questions or why it was asked.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Jenny,

      I forgot something else like a clown, after Episode 4 aired, so many people thought that he had slept with her because he felt sorry for her, or that it was a one night stand and he hit it and quit it. Seeing those comments all over the place hurt, I was like, omg how could they do this to her? People think that he didn’t care, or that it was fan service, because of course he would never love someone like that. It was a bummer for me to read and perhaps speaks to the lack of clarity in the episode.

        Quote  Reply

    121. kevin1989:
      Mango,

      I see you really didn’t get Brienne as a character, and what her real struggle was. The struggle that she had suffered all those years was gone in the end. And that’s even more shown that she was at peace when she wrote Jaime’s story in the white book, but I think that’s because Brienne understood Jaime, like many viewers didn’t.

      As for Brienne why her ending was brilliant and in fact completing her journey and making her whole as a person. Her struggles were:
      1. Not being accepted as a warrior. She was a woman and she should be a lady. Not a knight, not fighting. She never got recognition from that and only mocked because of it. That resulted in her not fitting in who she was. Lot has changed through the course of the show. She learned her strength as a knight and that’s nothing to be ashamed of even if you’re a woman. Her interaction with Pod, Jaime, Cat, Sansa, Arya (7×04) and more she have learned that. In 8×02 even when Jaime wanted to knight her, and Tormund and everyone else showed her that she deserved to be a knight, she had doubts, they are mocking her again, she can’t be a knight, she is a woman. She looked at Pod somebody who she trusted/trusts with her struggles. He let’s her know, it’s ok, you deserve this. And she finally believed in herself. Then Jaime knighted her and a weight has been lifted of her shoulders. She can be a knight now and they believe in her.
      And you stated that she should have been the lady of her house. That made it clear to me you didn’t understood Brienne at all. She is just like Arya with that, she doesn’t want that. Like we saw in 2×03 she wants to be a kingsguard. And she finally got it.

      2. Her second struggle is her appearance. She was mocked because of how she looked “Brienne the beauty. A great joke.” She never though she was worth it, nobody ever wants her. The struggle is not man doesn’t find her attractive, the problem is that she herself doesn’t find herself attractive. She hates herself for that, how she looks. Then she met Tormund, she never wanted him because she was already in love with Jaime, but somebody though she was attractive. She maybe didn’t like it that it came from Tormund but even that helped her. Then Jaime showed her that she was attractive as a woman. And she got what she longed for. And that longing is not a man to keep her bed warm. No she finally believed that she was worth is as a woman, that she was beautiful, that she could be loved. And another struggle was lifted off her.

      After that Brienne’s biggest struggles was gone, and she could finally be herself. She finally could feel great in her own skin, in her deeds. Then Jaime left her, she was heartbroken, like anyone who would be left by their loved ones. Nobody wants that, not if you are in love like Brienne was with Jaime. But here comes the big conclusion that people tend to forget. Jaime leaving didn’t make her doubt herself with her deeds, she can be a knight and be respected. And him leaving didn’t make it that she didn’t believe she was worth it to be loved. Jaime did love her and found her attractive, even if he left, she was loved. In the end she still believed she was worth it as a woman. And you can maybe say that Jaime should have stayed with her because she deserved to be loved till the end of her life, yes she deserved that. But what matters is that in the end, she loved herself.

      “Brienne the beauty, this time not a joke, but worthwhile.”

      Did it occur to you that are making Brienne’s story up to match your own sad life?

        Quote  Reply

    122. kevin1989,

      As for being with people she cared for – There was nothing in the show to establish that she cared about Bran. I do not think they had a single scene. She may, as he was Cat’s son but that was not established. Sansa and Arya had more reason to stay in KL.

      She does care about Pod. (How Pod became a member of a celibate order is another surprising thing given his strong interest in women.) She barely knew the others…well, maybe Jaime’s brother….. Mr “What is she like under her dress”

        Quote  Reply

    123. Jenny:
      Jenny,

      I forgot something else like a clown, after Episode 4 aired, so many people thought that he had slept with her because he felt sorry for her, or that it was a one night stand and he hit it and quit it.Seeing those comments all over the place hurt, I was like, omg how could they do this to her?People think that he didn’t care, or that it was fan service, because of course he would never love someone like that.It was a bummer for me to read and perhaps speaks to the lack of clarity in the episode.

      Because it was portrayed in a manner that was very diminishing to Brienne.

      The writers that wrote Jaime sneaking out of her room did a disservice to Brienne and to Jaime and to their entire 6 seasons of a relationship.

      And many viewers did not think being dumped made you feel better about yourself as does Kevin seem to think Brienne would have felt.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Ten Bears: I’d have to rewatch with a stopwatch to see if this is true: I read somewhere that despite the extra year to write the six-episode final season, much of the screen time was taken up with people just..walking around, with no dialogue.

      I am not whinging. I’m just curious if this is accurate.

      I read some reports of that myself. I did not confirm. Apparently the dialogue just died. Lots of Tyrion walking around though.

      LOTR is different because time was spent showing the orcs working and not doing much chattering because orcs do not chatter much. However, there was enough dialogue for the story to be well developed.

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    125. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      Testing. Trying to reply to your 10:53 am Comment, but the Lord of Light keeps routing it to the ether.

      Yeah, my comment to Kevin ended up in limbo earlier, but it actually showed up twice later!

      whoops.. I was wrong.. it still says moderation…. I will try again…the Lord of Light is being a tough guy today.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Jenny:
      kevin1989,

      I know this isn’t aimed at me, but if I may add my two cents, I agree that she was mocked for wanting to be a knight because of her gender, but this goes hand in hand with the mockery she received for being a woman in the first place.She is basically Sansa from Season 1 with a sword, she loves dancing and songs and tales of great knights, she dreams of singing to Renly, the woman is so soft it kills me.She is naive and so used to mockery that she pledges herself to those who show her kindness (Renly and Cat). She only wanted to be a member of Renly’s KG to be close to him, she knew it would never happen but she loved him anyway and that was enough.She found mockery as a Knight easier to bear than mockery as a woman, so she pushed it all aside.She didn’t dare to hope for anything else, even though she secretly dreamed of being taken away to some handsome lords castle.I don’t remember her rejecting her title, only that she felt like such a failure to her father, she couldn’t stand to be there anymore, that is soooo sad.Omg, and the bet, the bet!!!!Her existence breaks my heart.

      Tormand’s attention didn’t help her in the slightest, he didn’t even know her name, and Jaime decided that he would rather die in the arms of his sister than live with her, that is in no way going to make her feel appreciated as a woman, that half of herself was once again treated terribly, and she was hurt in the worst way possible.So in the end, she was right about herself all along, she is better off living as a Knight only, and giving up all hope for more in life.I’m sure she can find happiness with that situation one day, but that is not exactly the fulfilment of her dual arc imo.if Jaime had left under different circumstances, sure, but as it is?I do not agree that she has now become comfortable with gender, she is a cracking knight though.Obviously I don’t subscribe to ‘all women need a man’ that is silly, but since it’s like half of her character, it’s kind of important for her to reconcile the two halves.I understand that you feel the show did that, but I don’t myself.

      I am not sure how one concludes that the way the story was written would make her feel loved. Finding your lover trying to sneak off and then told the “it is me, it is not you” when caught ghosting her is the worse way to have let these two part ways. How she would conclude this man loved her from that is a mystery.

      Instead – Before he left that room, Jaime and Brienne could have had an intense loving conversation about his need to assist/extricate Cersei. She is his sister. She is pregnant with his child. He is sworn to her as queen. Brienne understand duty, she understand loyalty, she understands bravery. When he left there could still have been the parting and crying in the courtyard. Perhaps crying by both – she would know she is loved. The viewers would know of the depth btw because the story would include it in the plot. (We would not need to make it up ourselves like Kevin). The story could actually have them marry before he left…a lot more could have been done to honor that relationship. When he promised to take Cersei away to Pentos, he could have asked Tyrion to let Brienne know what happened and that he loved her.

      Nope.

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    127. Dialogue is not the only way to tell a story in visual medium. Shot of Daenerys with dragon’s wings told more than any speech would.

      Fantasy fans are generally very dependent on exposition and they feel like everything has to be told and explained in order to exist in story. That’s the reason why many fantasy writers write much longer books than they really need. Too much exposition is what their fans demand. That happened with Rowling, Jordan and ofc Martin.

      That philosophy is what doomed ASOIAF. Too much exposition, everything has to be shown now. In the past something like Robb’s campaign was storyline GRRM realized we don’t need to see. In later books even elections on Iron Islanda and political struggles in Dorne suddenly became important.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Tron79,

      Yes, Bran. Bran could have taken a look to see Cersei & Euron’s arrangements. Sound reasonable.

      Bran. Bran, dude, are you there?

      Bran lost track of the entire army of the dead after it broke the wall. It was Tormund that told Jon that they were a day away. So he was not even helping when the NK was coming to kill him.

      Do you think he was at all interested in KL until it was king time? Did you find it odd that no-one even asked him?

      What was he doing?

      Nothing. As usual.

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    129. I find this discussion about Brienne pointless. GoT and ASOIAF have a lot of elements from classical tragedy.

      If the story wants Brienne to be rejected again at the end, so be it. Why would she avoid tragic fate that many characters had? It’s hardly the biggest tragedy in GoT.

      Daenerys never had home, she was stranger and invader everywhere. At the end she was killed as a tyrant at the same place her father was killed. By the man she loved. Her dynasty is gone.

      Compare that to Brienne. Asshole treated her like any asshole treats people. Maybe nice girls shouldn’t fall for bad boys?

        Quote  Reply

    130. mau:
      I find this discussion about Brienne pointless. GoT and ASOIAF have a lot of elements from classical tragedy.

      If the story wants Brienne to be rejected again at the end, so be it. Why would she avoid tragic fate that many characters had? It’s hardly the biggest tragedy in GoT.

      Daenerys never had home, she was stranger and invader everywhere. At the end she was killed as a tyrant at the same place her father was killed. By the man she loved. Her dynasty is gone.

      Compare that to Brienne. Asshole treated her like any asshole treats people. Maybe nice girls shouldn’t fall for bad boys?

      Then perhaps Beinoff should not cite the scene of Jaime knighting Brienne as his favorite scene.

      The impact of the scene depends on an intense respect and deep regard between two people that value and understand honor. It does not work if Jaime is not a true knight and all it entails, it does not work if he has no respect for her. He cannot violate her trust in hours after the scene. It wipes out any meaning from the scene.

      Which makes it comical that Beinoff says it makes him tear up. Because his writing deletes any impact from this scene.

      What we see now is “an asshole and his victim”.

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    131. Benioff can cite any scene he wants in the show he created, because that scene exists because of him and Weiss. They wrote the outline of S8 and gave Cogman the task of writing it.

      That is really strange complaint, because Jaime and Brienne’s relationship doesn’t need to end well for that scene to have value.

      It would be like being outraged that Benioff likes scene when Daenerys and Tyrion talk for the first time, even if he knew that their whole relationship will be a complete failure.

      Jaime is a complicated man. Leaving Brienne for Cersei the way he did, was hardly the worst thing he did for Cersei.

      If Jaime had to leave Brienne for some people to realize he is not the true knight than they watched the show in a very wrong way.

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    132. If people think they way D&D wrote Jaime leaving Brienne was cruel they should be happy that GRRM haven’t wrote his books yet. In his version of the story it would be much much worse. I wouldn’t be surprised if he even insults her she he leaves.

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    133. Mango,

      What you wrote is something a good person would do. But Jaime wasn’t a good person and there is no need to romanticize him. GRRM is very good in making even villains sympathetic, but sometimes fans take it too far. They fall in love with characters and ignore all their flaws.

      Jaime did a lot of bad things for Cersei. That was consistent with the character. I can respect that fans want him to be better than that at the end, but fans should also respect that the story doesn’t belong to them and if the writers don’t want him to be better than that they should analyse what the story wants to tell with this character and this conclusion and not to complain that it made them feel bad, angry or sad. Because that was the point.

      Too much emotional investment can often lead to unreasonable reactions.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Sure, he can cite what he wants. Why are you complaining when we go on to discuss his interview?

      You must have missed Cogman interview when he pointed out that the title “Knights of the Seven Kingdoms” refers to both Jaime and Brienne as knights. Whether you agree or not, we were supposed to be seeing two knights. If Jaime is no knight, then that alone belittles the honor to Brienne and diminishes the scene that makes poor, innocent Beinoff tear up.

      You need to pay attention to storylines and characters arc. Narrative is not just random events thrown together. They build on each other and relate to each other.

      Tryion and Deaneyrs relationship is very different from Jaime and Brienne’s. Not even close. Second, how can you compare a first/early conversation btw two people to the knighting scene which is an engagement between two people that have built a relationship over 6 seasons.

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    135. mau:
      Mango,

      What you wrote is something a good person would do. But Jaime wasn’t a good person and there is no need to romanticize him. GRRM is very good in making even villains sympathetic, but sometimes fans take it too far. They fall in love with characters and ignore all their flaws.

      Jaime did a lot of bad things for Cersei. That was consistent with the character. I can respect that fans want him to be better than that at the end, but fans should also respect that the story doesn’t belong to them and if the writers don’t want him to be better than that they should analyse what the story wants to tell with this character and this conclusion and not to complain that it made them feel bad, angry or sad. Because that was the point.

      Too much emotional investment can often lead to unreasonable reactions.

      A reader or a viewer has an investment in the story. A storyteller asks them to make that investment and listen to the story. As an art form, good narrative must have a characteristic called truth to the audience. The story must make some sort of sense. Characters must make sense. Characters arc must make sense. A storytelller cannot violate that underlying “truth to the audience” and remain a good storyteller.

      So no, a storyteller cannot just tell any story they like. (Well, maybe up to 5 years old, you may be ok!)

      To do so would have violated the trust given to them.

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    136. Mango,

      Jaime is knight ofc. But he is not a good person and if the story wants Brienne to be punished for falling in love with him, so be it. Enough with “bad boy can be turned by good girl” trope. Bad boy is a bad boy. And any good girl who falls in love with them is responsible for her choices. She wanted to have sex with a man deeply in love with another women because she was naive and believed he can be turned. She was wrong and learned an important lession.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Mango,

      True. And Benioff and Weiss did exactly that. But it not their fault they have unreasonable part of audience that ignores everything about Jaime becase Nikolaj is hot and they are turned on by bad boys. The same thing is happening with Star Wars and Kylo Ren. Sadly a lot of female fantasy fans do this. Draco Malfoy had a lot of fans in HP that wanted some sort of redemption for him and Rowling was disgusted by that.

      D&D wrote Jaime rape Cersei, he stayed on her side no matter what she did, he killed Olenna, killed Blackfish, helped Freys, never felt sorry for any crimes Tywin and Joffrey committed and still you have fans arguing he is some sort if misunderstood hero.

      It’s not writers fault that some members of audience are blind. Reality slapped them in the face. Audence also has responsibility when they are watching/reading something.

        Quote  Reply

    138. mau,

      Whether Jaime is good or bad is not the main issue that I discussed here. My posts have been MOSTLY about the knighting scene and how it was devalued later. Then MOSTLY focused on the harsh storyline for Brienne focusing on scenes such as “the what is under her dress” questions.

      Whether Jaime is good or not – he has been good to Brienne since they bonded. He jumped in front of a bear to save her; he tried to save her from rape; he gave her his most valuable material possession; he confided his greatest secret to her; they saved each other lives numerous time in the WF battle; he knighted her.

      And yes, he pumped and dumped her and tried to ghost her.

      All very consistent stuff.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Mango,

      Yes it is very consistent. He respected Brienne and even loved her in some way, but Cersei was always love of his life. Brienne wasn’t raped. She had a choice and she made it. And just like every character she is not entited to happy ending.

      Knighting scene wasn’t devauled in any way. It was about Brienne being accepted and respected. It wasn’t about Jaime loving her more than Cersei, because that would never happen.

      Brienne paid a price for her delusions. She could have rejected sex with Jaime. She didn’t.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Mango,

      “what is under her dress” questions are asked among brothers and male friends even today. Yeah, we live in cruel world where women are treated like sexual objects.

      GoT was brave enough to show that. We shouldn’t blame the mirror for our ugly face. And GoT showed us that ugly face of humans many times.

        Quote  Reply

    141. mau:
      Mango,

      True. And Benioff and Weiss did exactly that. But it not their fault they have unreasonable part of audience that ignores everything about Jaime becase Nikolaj is hot and they are turned on by bad boys. The same thing is happening with Star Wars and Kylo Ren. Sadly a lot of female fantasy fans do this. Draco Malfoy had a lot of fans in HP that wanted some sort of redemption for him and Rowling was disgusted by that.

      D&D wrote Jaime rape Cersei, he stayed on her side no matter what she did, he killed Olenna, killed Blackfish, helped Freys, never felt sorry for any crimes Tywin and Joffrey committed and still you have fans arguing he is some sort if misunderstood hero.

      It’s not writers fault that some members of audience are blind. Reality slapped them in the face. Audence also has responsibility when they are watching/reading something.

      Perhaps, we can stop this exchange if that is the best you can do with Jaime’s sins. Did you really include killing suicide Blackfish?

      Ok maybe, let us try Tyrion, the good brother, was a wartime accomplice in the genocide of thousand/millions, killed his father, killed his lover…..and if we are including 5 kings wartime acts – blew up hundreds of Stannis men killing Davos’ son.

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    142. Mango,

      Jaime is responsible for Blackfish’s death. He helped the Freys took Riverrun that they stole from Tullys. It’s like helping the Boltons keep Winterfell.

      I don’t see what Tyrion has to do with this. Some members of the audence were completely in love with Jaime and Nikolaj and they completely ignored all crimes of that character, just like they did with Kylo Ren and Draco. Sad, but true. Bad boys were always attractive.

      This doesn’t mean that Jaime is pure monster, he did a lot of great things, but he has a dark side and that dark side is Cersei and everything he does for her.

        Quote  Reply

    143. mau:
      Mango,

      “what is under her dress” questions are asked among brothers and male friends even today. Yeah, we live in cruel world where women are treated like sexual objects.

      GoT was brave enough to show that. We shouldn’t blame the mirror for our ugly face. And GoT showed us that ugly face of humans many times.

      Did Tyrion ask Jon about Deaneryrs ladyparts?

      Did Tyrion ask Jaime that about Cersei?

      Did Bronn ask that about Shae?

      Did Jaime ask about Shae?

      So, no…..only Brienne.

        Quote  Reply

    144. Mango,

      What Daenerys did wasn’t genocide. People should really learn what genocide means and not use that term in such an ignorant way. It’s insulting to people who have family memebers who were really victims of genocide.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Mango,

      So what? Tyrion is a pervert. Bronn didn’t ask about Shae but he did ask Tyrion about sexual advances towards Sansa.

      Ramsay asked Roose about Walda. There were other examples of misogynistic comments about unconventional female characters. I mean even for unconventional male characters it’s the same. Jon thought it was strange for Sam to be interested in girls because he is fat.

      The rest of proposed conversation don’t make sense for those characters. It’s hard to imagine Jon and Tyrion talk about sex.

        Quote  Reply

    146. mau:
      Mango,

      What Daenerys did wasn’t genocide. People should really learn what genocide means and not use that term in such an ignorant way. It’s insulting to people who have family memebers who were really victims of genocide.

      My, my, isn’t our vocabulary refined.

      Yes, genocide has a specific definition in international law under the UN used for purposes of prosecution. That is specific with 5 features.

      However, that is not the only usage of genocide. It is quite properly used to describe “the killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group”.

      The people of KL are a specific sub-group of the population and of a different” ethnic” group from Deanerys herself. But I do not even need that…killing a large group of people is sufficient for my usage.

      And if anyone reading has suffered genocide and objects to this particular usage, you have my thoughts and prayers.

        Quote  Reply

    147. Oh, I forgot Euron did ask Jaime something explicit.

      Poor Jaime, who has slept with fewer women that Pod, invited that kind of question. His entire sex life inquired into.

      Hahhaha…

        Quote  Reply

    148. Tron79: Yeah, my comment to Kevin ended up in limbo earlier, but it actually showed up twice later!

      whoops.. I was wrong.. it still says moderation…. I will try again…the Lord of Light is being a tough guy today.

      I can only wish my comments were going into Moderation purgatory; at least then I’d know the Lord of Light would resurrect them at some point.

      Instead, He is sending them to “That Page Not Found” oblivion, or nowhere at all.🤢

      I suspect the local ads rotation might have something to do with it…

        Quote  Reply

    149. Mango,

      I couldn’t disagree more. I think it’s quite apparent how much care and hardwork, not just D&D, but the entire cast and crew put into the final season. And the coffee cup isn’t a symbol of anything except the obsessiveness of some fans who go out of their way to find faults in this show. If they were to put even an ounce of the same effort to tear down other shows, they would never enjoy television again. The ending was well constructed. That doesn’t change just because you didn’t like it.

      As for Brienne, her story ended with her becoming Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, her dream job, while also losing the man that she loves, so you can consider her ending both happy and sad. In other words, it was bittersweet, just like Martin, D&D, and the cast have promised for a while now. You’ve had plenty of time to wrap your head around it. Don’t get me wrong, it’s perfectly acceptable to prefer happy endings, but that has nothing to do with the quality of writing. It’s a matter of personal taste.

      Brienne’s knighting was by no means undervalued. It was to show the love and respect Jaime has for Brienne. Jaime didn’t leave because he didn’t love Brienne, he left because he felt like he didn’t deserve her. Cersei was the woman he deserved to be with, hence why he said, “She’s hateful, and so am I.”

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    150. mau,

      Yes, I know some people on here would claim differently, but it’s becoming more and more clear that the season 8 backlash occurred because D&D didn’t give fans what they wanted.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Young Dragon,

      That was always the case. Complaining that Jaime left Brienne isn’t some “objective” criticism. It’s just people being sad that he wasn’t a better person and blaiming Benioff and Weiss for it.

      It’s shame that Martin never finished the books, because his version of Jaime is much more complicated than simplistic “bad guy becomes good guy” arc some fans think he is on.

        Quote  Reply

    152. mau,

      I like Jaime as a character in the books, but I dislike the theory that he will be the one that kills Cersei. It just seems to me that would be like Jaime placing the entirety of the blame on Cersei, whereas he was complicit and shared several of her crimes.

        Quote  Reply

    153. “To have [the show] become what it became, and to be able to spend not one year or two years but more than ten years of our lives making it at this level, with [all] the people [behind the camera] that we got to work with…”

      Maybe people should keep that in mind before pilling on them all the hatred and venom…

        Quote  Reply

    154. mau,

      The thing is, according to D&D, the director and even the actors (including Lena) that was not a rape scene. Now, when this happened and I read the interviews after wards I was very much thinking ‘WTF? How do you film a rape scene by mistake?’ They said it was something to do with editing? But who could look at that edit and go ‘yep, that’s consensual’ it’s one of the most bizarre things to happen on GOT. The show character was pretty much dead to me at this point, but I still held out some hope that book Jaime would appear and he never did. My mistake of course.

      mau,

      I’m probably guilty of this, but when you have another version to compare it to, its difficult. Somewhere in the thread you mentioned GRRM making villains seem sympathetic, that’s true, but how many of them change their behaviour and outlook on life as a result? Theon? Who is perhaps on a redemption arc? In the book Jaime has committed no crime since he losing his hand, and he has been making more of an effort to uphold his vows. All Brienne did was remind him that it was actually possible to do so, he didn’t change for her, he’s showing some independent thought for once in his life. And importantly he is about to be put on trial for his one true crime, Bran. So I at least have faith that he will face up to his own actions in WoW before anything else happens in the story.

      The show painted a picture of a bad guy gone good for the good girl, but only when she was around, as if she were his moral compass, and I agree that’s not positive, that’s not healthy and nobody should aspire to the idea that ‘the bad guy hates everyone else, but he loves me’ just no. But then, show Jaime is trash, he is possibly the only character they rewrote to be so much darker, and I don’t know why. It’s frustrating and in the end I didn’t care that he died, because I didn’t know who he was. At times they paid lip service to his book counterpart and I got my hopes up (and Brienne was responding as book Brienne would to book Jaime) but in the end he was almost a D&D creation like Sansa was in the end. I am prepared for a really bad turn in the books for him, if he kills Cersei, that is not a positive thing or the end of a redemption arc in any way, I’m prepared for it, GRRM wrote his character to examine the possibility of redemption, what do people have to do to be redeemed after something so terrible, does it have limits? My guess would be yes in Jaime’s case. He’s very complex.

      Young Dragon,

      In the book? Which ones? There is obviously Bran but he had nothing to do with Robert, or murdering his children, and then he was away while she was doing her thing in KL. Is there something I’m forgetting?

        Quote  Reply

    155. mau,

      I think I’d be bitter if I saved a million people and they hated me for it lol. And yet he comes out with ‘I am alive and drunk on sunlight’ ‘why would the starts look down on one such as me’ GRRM gets all poetic with him for some reason. He wanted to be Arthur Dayne but became the Smiling Knight instead, I love his AFFC chapters, bitter is right, with a touch of hope I think.

        Quote  Reply

    156. Ten Bears,

      This, and Jaime was the wrong person. She knew that he wanted to go back to Cersei, you always know that of your partner. She knew Jaime went with her because of victory of the battle and him half drunk acting in the moment. She knew it wouldn’t last. She also knew from the years together how far he will go for Cersei. But she wanted that love even if it was just for a moment. Know how to be loved.

      And for me her end scene made it clear that she had given it a place in her heart. She didn’t blame Jaime, else she would not have written that text, she even had given it a place that he went back to Cersei. She is ok with it else she wouldn’t have written it. If you still are torn because of your ex you can’t talk good things about him or her. She moved on, learned from it, and treasured the experience she had with him.

      Personally I wish we had more scenes with Brienne that would give this a better explanation. I would love to have see at least 2 episodes with them together instead of half an episode. And I wanted to have an extra scene with her between episode 4 and 6. That she maybe talked with Sansa about Jaime. And that’s why I understand the backlash of people wanting 2 seasons of 6 episodes. I think we could have had scenes like that. Was it needed? No. Would it have been better? yes.

        Quote  Reply

    157. Jenny,

      It was a rough road, but I think I became a better person because of it. And I learned to look at the positive things that relationship brought me.

      As for brienne she’s also one of my favorite characters in the books because of that. That’s why I didn’t have a problem with Feasts for instance, I loved her chapters. Her innocence.
      And yes Jaime pulled that, but I think that was not really the “I’m not in love with her” look. I think more the “I despise myself look” “Me an unhonorable man with a honorable woman, she deserves better”. That end scene between Brienne and Jaime made that clear for me, that was his motive. He thinks Brienne deserved more. And I think Brienne knows that the fault isn’t her. Jaime still loved her, want to be with her. But his past and his guilt is the problem, the guilt that is not there with Cersei, who had done worse than him. And that resonates a lot with her writing the text in the books, she wrote his honorable side. She wanted Jaime to be remembered like that, because that’s the side she loved, and that’s the side she wished Jaime had seen. If Jaime had only forgiven himself, he would have stayed. And I think that can be a huge motivation for Brienne to not hate herself for it.

      As for her future. Who knows. Maybe she can marry later. Maybe Bran changed the rules to a job as long as you want. Barristan was relieved, maybe now he can implement rules like that that the kings guard can chose himself. And I think Brienne made a choice, like many do in life: I had my love of my life for a moment. And I treasure that.
      As for episode 4. I agree I wished that it was 2 episodes at least. It could even be just 2. If it was them getting together in a seasons cliffhanger and breaking up in a seasons opening. I personally would have wanted 2 seasons of season 8. Having them together in the final 8×06. And breaking up in 9×02. Having a 9×01 them as a couple.

        Quote  Reply

    158. Mango,

      Your welcome. 🙂

      Mango,

      Thank you for interpreter my life as a sad life. Personally I don’t look at it that way, I learned from it, and moved on. And many had it worse in life.

      Mango,

      Yes she loved Pod. I was referring to him. But it’s a group of people she know, she feels comfortable with. Survived the long night with. Who respected her and don’t judge her for who she is. That’s why I can understand she wants to be in KL. And maybe even becomes Kingsguard as a tribute to Jaime.

        Quote  Reply

    159. Mango,

      No I didn’t get that interpretation. And it seems you misunderstood once again what I meant.
      As I stated before she will feel like shit about it. But in the end she can learn from it, giving it a place in her heart. And remember the good times, and look at the positive side it gave you.

      You can always look at things like being dumped at the bad side only but that’s not a way to get to life. And Brienne is a strong person. She is vulnerable but not stupid, she can understand Jaime in the end and give it a rest. Brienne has learned that already in life. And that’s why I think Brienne get through it and treasure the good moments, and not blame it on herself, and still love herself in the end. Because she already have that wisdom.

        Quote  Reply

    160. Mango,

      Her end conversation made it clear: She is hateful so am I.
      That’s all Brienne has to know. And if a love one said that to you, you know the problem is their love for them self not you. He didn’t say that the problem was Brienne. No he stated clearly he is leaving because he, Jaime himself hated himself and couldn’t forgave himself. So it’s not a mystery for Brienne that the problem lied there and not with her. Brienne is not an idiot, she can put 1 + 1 together. That scene made it all clear for Brienne, Jaime loved her, but he couldn’t let go of his past and couldn’t stay with him. Brienne’s only fault was that she was too honorable and reminded him of that past. Blaming yourself for being to honorable is not a bad thing in my book. So yes I think Brienne felt horrible for months for what Jaime did to her, even blame him for leaving. But I think in the end, she forgave him and put it too rest, and got the wisdom that it was not her but him not loving himself.

      About the more time, I agree 100%. More time that story needed instead of half an episode. I really wanted to see more of those 2. Didn’t need much more scenes just a couple that we saw them as a love couple. Both sides of Jaime, and Brienne putting Jaime to rest and maybe having a scene with Sansa about Jaime.

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    161. Young Dragon,

      This. And people need to learn that even if a relationship ended badly doesn’t mean there was no love to begin with. And as you state the problem lies with jaime hating himself. Not him not loving Brienne.

        Quote  Reply

    162. Jenny,

      He didn’t kill Mad King only to save the people. He did it to save his father and his army. If Jaime was so concerned about people he would be outraged when his father sacked KL. Or when he organized RW. Or when his army commited many crimes in Riverlands, or when Cersei destroyed the Sept.

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    163. Jenny,

      I don’t know what the intention of that scene was, but for sure it wasn’t there to make you feel good for their relationship or Jaime in general. The point is to get remained that Jaime is not some perfect hero now, just because he saved Brienne.

      I mean there is a reason why Alex Graves never got to work on the show again, but that scene is there to make you disguested with Jaime, no matter if it’s rape or not.

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    164. mau,

      Jaime staying with Cersei after the Sept is a show plot point that I don’t buy into, it made no sense whatsoever and even NCW went to the writers about it. That was the natural end to their relationship in the show but they held off until the end of the season. But like I said, show Jaime is trash.

      His armies’ crimes in the Riverlands? Are we talking about in the show? I can’t remember that clearly, in the book he sends people to the wall and has his men punished for rape and IIRC doesn’t allow them to run wild. He is advised to storm a holdfast at Pennytree because they are refused entry and he says no, and camps outside instead.

      We don’t really know what he thought about the events after he killed the Mad King, he spent days hunting down the pyromancer’s in the city. If he only cared about his father, why would he do that? Of course he did care about his father but he was already disillusioned with the King, after witnessing him rape his wife (and being told he can’t do anything) and burn people alive. This was the final straw. This isn’t an oh poor Jaime thing, it’s poor Rhaella. He has a habit of dissociating himself from bad events to cope, he tells Tommen to just ‘go away inside’. He’s probably traumatised in some ways I don’t know.

      RW? He wasn’t there, had no part in it and is about to be put on trial for it, we will get his thoughts about it should the book ever come out.

      mau,

      From what I understood, it was meant to be two people desperately needing each other in that moment. Jaime trying to convince himself that everything was just the same and it wasn’t. It was nasty, and shows that that relationship is vile and should not be happening. It was a disaster any way you look at it, how could they get it so wrong?

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    165. Killing a person who wants to destroy a city where you are, your father and your army is good move, but it’s also the only logical move. He wanted to save himself. Every rational person would do the same. There are many other examples where people suffered under Lannisters and he did nothing to stop it. Like sack of KL, rape and death of Elia Martell, death of her children, RW, destruction of Sept and so on. Any crime done to help the Lannisters was justified for him. He butchered Ned Stark’s man. Never felt sorry for that either. So no matter what his father, son or sister did to secure position of House Lannister, it was fine for him. That’s why staying with Cersei after she destroyed Sept is consistent with his character. He stayed with his father after Tywin organized RW. I don’t see any moral difference.

      Jaime sex with his sister alongside their dead son where is the one forcing himself on her, both in the books and the show where she said no, is done to make you disguested with him. I don’t know how it could have been done more obvious.

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    166. And Jaime straight up rapes Cersei in the books and the fandom’s obession with denying it is honestly disturbing. She says “no” and he continues anyways. That is rape. There is ZERO ambiguity. If someone doesn’t consent and you force them until they do, you raped them.

      The show just removed the part where the rape victim starts liking it. GRRM has this fucked up tendancy to write scenes that are objectively rape, only to justify them by the fact the woman starts enjoying. Like Daenerys’ first sex with Drogo.

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    167. mau,

      We at least know that he felt guilt over Elia, Rhaegar specifically asked him to watch over them, but he didn’t know of Tywin’s plan, and was hunting down the pyromancer’s at the time. In his Weirwood dream Rhaegar appears to him and he is afraid of the vision, he feels guilt over his failure. We can wonder what he would have done if he had been there, would he have stopped the Mountain? Possibly? No? I have no idea, he was a great swordsman but only 17 at the time, would he disobey his father? Probably not. GRRM conveniently takes him away from those events.

      I don’t have too much of an issue with characters killing during war, when you have characters on both sides you see them all doing ‘questionable’ things. Cat took Tyrion hostage, so Jaime went after Ned and his men, I don’t really know why he’d feel bad about that?

      I agree that Jaime’s biggest crimes are obviously Bran, and standing idly by while he goes away inside. It’s family family family to them, they are all pretty warped in that way. The difference between the Sept and the RW is Tommen, his son (and King) died as a result, and she used wildfire, 2 big no no’s for that character. Yes it’s pretty pathetic that he is still under his father’s thumb after the RW, but they are hardly on speaking terms. In the pecking order of shitty people, I’d probably put him halfway down the list, and yes I was disgusted by the Sept scene in the book as well. Then it ends with Cersei helping him and shouting ‘do me, do me, do me, oh my brother my lover, you’re home’ Ew. Those two have no idea of consent. That’s a GRRM thing and it is gross.

      Edit: I just saw your follow up, yes I agree with you.

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    168. Tommen didn’t die in the Sept. I don’t think you can blame Cersei directly for his death. Cersei used wildfire to destroy their enemies, just like Tyrion did. I think fans put to much importance to wildfire because Mad King used it. Jaime never even mentioned wildfire to Tyrion.

      Tywin killed their enemies, just like Cersei did. Tyrion used wildfire to destroy their enemies, just like Cersei did. If he didn’t hate his brother and father for that I don’t see why what Cersei did was so horrible. For him.

      I think that’s just another case where fans want character to be better people than they are and act like fans want them to act, even if that makes no sense for those characters.

      Leaving Cersei after all their children are dead and after Danerys is about to attack, just because Cersei did what Tyrion and Tywin already have done makes no sense to me.

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    169. Ok, well we can agree to disagree. Although we both think he is a complex character, I veer to the better side obviously but I’m not going to say you are wrong. Jaime has never talked to Tyrion about the Mad King, he wouldn’t say anything about WF, and again he conveniently wasn’t there.

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    170. kevin1989,

      I should not have said your sad life. That was rude. My only defense is that I was doing quick bits of writing and this was loosely and thoughtlessly worded. I should have written …”a sad episode in your life”

      I must also own up to wondering about your reports of weeping. I remember that. However, you seem to carry on your life quite well. I do not know you but that is what I gathered from our very limited exchange. I hope I am correct. (Or did I mess up again?)

      Everyone in life has misadventures. I make great jokes out of mine. But if anyone tried to ghost me – at my age – I would assume they needed to use the restroom and got lost coming back.

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    171. Jenny,

      From my posts someone could conclude that I think that Jaime is pure villain. I don’t. I think he has a lot of qualities and that he is a better person than Cersei in many ways. But I just disagree with this romanticized version of Jaime. I think he has a dark side within him and if the story wants to tell us that he will never be able to truly let go of his toxic relationship with Cersei I respect that. And I think GRRM will do the same in the books. If they are ever finished. But we will get Jaime’s thoughts there, so it will be easier for people to understand him and his love for Cersei.

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    172. Jenny:
      Ok, well we can agree to disagree.Although we both think he is a complex character, I veer to the better side obviously but I’m not going to say you are wrong.Jaime has never talked to Tyrion about the Mad King, he wouldn’t say anything about WF, and again he conveniently wasn’t there.

      Sorry I forgot to say (I keep doing this, I am a clown) I don’t consider the Tyrells enemies, at least not in the same vein as Stannis invading the city. Defending the city is fair I think, attacking your supposed allies within the city is different imo. Tywin ordering a massacre at a wedding is a better comparison, but at the very least they were at war with them, and Tywin justifies it by saying he saved thousands of lives…. sure Jan. I hope to see Jaime’s reaction to that in WoW. In a way I don’t blame Cersei for doing what she did, but it still feels like the end of that story, because I think both Jaime and Cersei should have died around this point and they both outlived their storylines. No fAegon to replace them with.

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    173. mau,

      I have the same thing, I maybe come across as someone who see’s him as this Knight in shining armour, we are probably actually in the middle with me seeing him slightly better and you slightly worse. I enjoy talking about it though, and I do totally see him going down a dark path because of his obsessive and possessive feelings for Cersei in the end. The valonqar (if it happens) can’t be some glorious I am free moment, he will probably off himself if he does it. Though I still hold out hope for something better, the books make us think he is capable and does have some morals/care for other people, or he develops it after losing his hand but who knows how it all ends? he is either a work in progress or a guy doomed to bitter failure, which would be so sad after AFFC and AWAD.

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    174. Young Dragon:
      mau,

      Yes, I know some people on here would claim differently, but it’s becoming more and more clear that the season 8 backlash occurred because D&D didn’t give fans what they wanted.

      Season 8 had some extremely negative critical feedback from almost every respected Tv critic. I suggest you read Globe and Mail (Canada) , BBC (UK), New York Times, LA Times, New Yorker, Washington Post, as well as Atlantic, the Wire, Vox. Even gentle Esquire when the nominations were announced had to say the writing bad.

      Yes, a few critics like it. I grant you that. All these very capable critics explained and explained and explained why S8 was a failure of storytelling. It was a success in acting, costume, cinematography etc. You could read these if you cared to understand anything about the feedback. Of course, critical feedback is most useful if you read the same critic over many years and get a feel of his technique. Plus reading across several on each show to see an examination of different angles on the same story.

      I have read these guys for years. They are not saying these things because they particularly care about wanting a particular ending. They focus on character arc, creative choices and sense of story.

      The NYT headline was their wrap was “GOT comes in for a crash landing”. When the Emmy awards were announced one funny critic wrote..”Emmy night will be dark and full of Emmys for GOT. My only response is Dracarys” (or something like that.)

      Wise up.

      I expect at some point in their career to see Beinoff and Weiss reflect on their poor choices made in GOT. This announcement that their favorite is Jaime/Brienne is already a bit of clever marketing.

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    175. Jenny,

      After the end of GOT, GRRM responded in an email on “Jaime/Brienne” making a reference to “Sliding Doors”. I read it some time ago but his intention seemed to be that his Jaime/Brienne storyline evolves in a very different way from GOT. Well, if he ever gets done.

      To D&D’s defense, for GOT they needed to get Jaime into KL for the big ending. Peter, NCW and Lena had to be included somewhere in the end story – they were the senior acting staff. Also to their defense, they are not experienced or particularly good storytellers and clearly made a mess of the character arcs.

      I did not want to get into a discussion of “Jaime”, my initial comments were about Brienne’s storyline.

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    176. Mango,

      I read it too *whispers* I’m too scared to hope.

      I ended up getting into the Jaime thing for you, I like talking about him though, he is the definition of a grey character, he might not commit crimes himself but he does stand by, I will concede that. I don’t think he actually condones them though. Because of that, he’s an interesting character to talk about, he’s my ‘problematic fav’ to steal a phrase, some people are too harsh, some too kind to him. And if he is somehow redeemed (a central theme to his character) then it makes sense that he kind of sucks in the beginning lol, he wouldn’t need redeeming otherwise. Brienne on the other hand, I will fight to the death for her, I will not hear a bad word said against such a pure soul, no ma’am. GRRM gets all poetic about them, he writes some of his most beautiful stuff for them, that can’t be a coincidence.

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    177. kevin1989:
      Mango,

      Her end conversation made it clear: She is hateful so am I.
      That’s all Brienne has to know. And if a love one said that to you, you know the problem is their love for them self not you. He didn’t say that the problem was Brienne. No he stated clearly he is leaving because he, Jaime himself hated himself and couldn’t forgave himself. So it’s not a mystery for Brienne that the problem lied there and not with her. Brienne is not an idiot, she can put 1 + 1 together. That scene made it all clear for Brienne, Jaime loved her, but he couldn’t let go of his past and couldn’t stay with him. Brienne’s only fault was that she was too honorable and reminded him of that past. Blaming yourself for being to honorable is not a bad thing in my book. So yes I think Brienne felt horrible for months for what Jaime did to her, even blame him for leaving. But I think in the end, she forgave him and put it too rest, and got the wisdom that it was not her but him not loving himself.

      About the more time, I agree 100%. More time that story needed instead of half an episode. I really wanted to see more of those 2. Didn’t need much more scenes just a couple that we saw them as a love couple. Both sides of Jaime, and Brienne putting Jaime to rest and maybe having a scene with Sansa about Jaime.

      In GOT, after Brienne saves Sansa, all Brienne’s scenes are about Jaime Lannister. Even the one with Tormund trying to get her eye was a reminder that she was in love.
      Perhaps this could be rebalanced to show a wider range of interests.

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    178. Jenny:
      Mango,

      I read it too *whispers* I’m too scared to hope.

      I ended up getting into the Jaime thing for you, I like talking about him though, he is the definition of a grey character, he might not commit crimes himself but he does stand by, I will concede that.I don’t think he actually condones them though.Because of that, he’s an interesting character to talk about, he’s my ‘problematic fav’ to steal a phrase, some people are too harsh, some too kind to him.And if he is somehow redeemed (a central theme to his character) then it makes sense that he kind of sucks in the beginning lol, he wouldn’t need redeeming otherwise.Brienne on the other hand, I will fight to the death for her, I will not hear a bad word said against such a pure soul, no ma’am.GRRM gets all poetic about them, he writes some of his most beautiful stuff for them, that can’t be a coincidence.

      Yup.

      There is a GRRM youtube of him talking about the scene in the bathtub. The emotion is GRRM’s voice about this scene is so warm and strong. He feels these two. I do not know what to think if someone hears the author speak about this scene and then asserts that Jaime was lying to Brienne about why he killed Aerys.

      How can anyone be so celebrity-smitten by Benioff and/or Weiss? I cannot figure yet why these two are objects of these “teenager-like” crushes.

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    179. Also in defense of D&D, as they adapted the story, if Jaime did not do his bad guy swan dive then of the top five (by earnings – Kit, NCW, Peter, Lena, Emilia) only the 2 women would be dead “baddies.” So two dead women and the three men living large at the end??

      This must have been a conundrum when they thought out the story. I am giving them the benefit of doubt here. The gender issue was a problem.

      Clearly, one of the men had to be bad and die. These are modern times. So they picked the Danish guy to be the baddie. From a marketing point of view, this seemed solid. They made sure to give him some extra crimes like killing his cousin. Made him more rapey, even sex on the White Book table. Trouble was his story was too powerfully written and exquisitely cast and acted that it “blew up” in their faces. And Gwen turned out to be terrific in her role and a beloved character.

      Again, Sansa was made queen for the same reason. To balance off killing the two queens.

      I can see why these choices were made. It needed more skillfull writing and/or time to make it work. Maybe they should have trusted their audience a bit more. And spend more time telling the story or use their limited time better.

      This may be the best that I can say for these guys.

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    180. Mango,

      Yes, we should believe in objective judgment of a person who thinks Television Academy should be burned for supporting GoT.

      Not biased at all. And if you trully read reviews for years as you claim, you would realize that NYT was shiting on GoT since S2. Benioff even made joke about it in 2013.

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    181. mau:
      Mango,

      Yes, we should believe in objective judgment of a person who thinks Television Academy should be burned for supporting GoT.

      Not biased at all. And if you trully read reviews for years as you claim, you would realize that NYT was shiting on GoT since S2. Benioff even made joke about it in 2013.

      I am not sure I am following. The Dracarys was directed at the statuettes. Not at the Academy.

      NYT has several critics writing and so have a wide range of opinions. I like that a lot. GOT got some well-deserved criticism for gratuitous nudity and violence, particularly to women. It was very true. NYT and other outlets called them on it several times. GOT cleaned up quite a bit since 2013.

      By the end, the violence was only to the character arcs, storyline and the quality of the product.

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    182. Mango,

      I don’t see how anyone can watch S8 and think the point of the story is that Jaime is a bad guy. Jaime is complicated, complex and tragic person until the very end. He didn’t do anything in S8 that can be interpreted as evil.

      Not letting his sister die alone is a crime? Love is a crime?

      “Things we do for love” was theme of Jamie’s story from S1 until the very end of the story.

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    183. mau:
      Mango,

      Mail you are quoting is fake. It’s made up. GRRM never said anything like that.

      I cannot swear for the writer. I do not know them.

      But it is very consistent with GRRM interviews in which he points out repeatedly that his version of the story differs somewhat from D&D. He also points out that TV and books have different constraints and needs for storytelling. When asked about the end for characters, he says, yes, no, no, yes or whatever.

      So back to the writer of the post – I do not know if this true or not. I simply read it and that is all I said. However, it was posted by a regular poster to the site it was originally written. They could be lying. And so could you.

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    184. mau:
      Mango,

      I don’t see how anyone can watch S8 and think the point of the story is that Jaime is a bad guy. Jaime is complicated, complex and tragic person until the very end. He didn’t do anything in S8 that can be interpreted as evil.

      Not letting his sister die alone is a crime? Love is a crime?

      “Things we do for love” was theme of Jamie’s story from S1 until the very end of the story.

      “Ghosting” a woman that you just deflowered and you know is in love with you – is evil in my book of sexual manners.

      There is that.

      Wait, I think you said that Jaime was a baddie. That he had lied about killing Aerys. Raped and so on. Some stuff about Freys, Boltons. I think you said he was like Draco and so on. Just a few hours ago. I am sorry if I misunderstood.

      See, now you tricked me into talking about Jaime.

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    185. Mango,

      GOT was attacked for political reasons by some critics. Treatment of black characters is important, but it has nothing to do with writing and storytelling. It was also attacked by alt-right for being “SJW propaganda” because female character killed the Night King.

      Also feminist critics always hated GoT, because they dont want to see rape or failure of female characters.

      I don’t remember them loosing their mind when Stannis killed his daughter.

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    186. Mango,

      And that woman knew he was in love with Cersei. She wasn’t raped. She wanted to have sex with him. No one promised her long term relationship.

      I never said that Jaime was villian. I said he was complicated man.

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    187. Jenny,

      On the Sept sex scene in the book, I read a poster some time ago that said that this scene signaled the spiritual end of the relationship between Jaime and Cersei. That was an interpretation that found compelling, I wanted to ask a few more questions on this thought but did not manage to engage on it but I have never forgotten it.

      Let me get off this Jaime train. ‘

      Actually, let me get my day going.

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    188. mau:
      Mango,

      And that woman knew he was in love with Cersei. She wasn’t raped. She wanted to have sex with him. No one promised her long term relationship.

      I never said that Jaime was villian. I said he was complicated man.

      I said the “ghosting” was a problem.

      Even by a Rubik cube of a man.

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    189. mau,

      It’s even forbidden to ask GRRM anything about the future books or the show in interview with him and now we should believe that some random person and known Jaime and Brienne shipper from tumblr got this long mail that confirmed all her hopes and dreams. Yeah right.

      I just got mail from Benioff confirming he will do Walk of Shame. After they win another Emmy.

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    190. Mango,

      Maybe you should read the books and not trust in other’s interpretation. Even in his last chapter in ADWD Jaime is thinking of going back to Cersei. So, no, their sex scene in Sept wasn’t the end of their relationship in any way.

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    191. mau:
      Mango,

      Maybe you should read the books and not trust in other’s interpretation. Even in his last chapter in ADWD Jaime is thinking of going back to Cersei. So, no, their sex scene in Sept wasn’t the end of their relationship in any way.

      Maybe you could pay attention to the views of others and reflect on their perspectives a bit more.

      A spiritual end vs a physical ending is an interesting difference.

      I was happy to engage of the idea but did not manage to do so. I did not say I agreed or disagreed. Just that the thought made me see another view of the event and want to explore it.

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    192. mau,

      That was added because his editor asked him to, and it was more of a ‘I suppose I’ll have to face her one day, if she’s not dead’ not exactly yearning for her yet. But probably an indicator that of course they will meet again, so a good addition imo. I actually like something from Genna about Jaime, they always thought Tyrion took after Tywin, but once Jaime tricks the Tully’s into giving up Riverrun, she says that actually Jaime is the most similar to Tywin. Not sure what that means for the future, but it was an interesting moment.

      Apologies about the High Sparrow, I meant to edit it but I ran out of time, he was the target, but the Tyrell’s were a bonus. That’s one way to get rid of your own mistake, honestly book Cersei is so short sighted it’s incredible, I think her chapters are comedy gold.

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    193. mau:
      mau,

      It’s even forbidden to ask GRRM anything about the future books or the show in interview with him and now we should believe that some random person and known Jaime and Brienne shipper from tumblr got this long mail that confirmed all her hopes and dreams.Yeah right.

      I just got mail from Benioff confirming he will do Walk of Shame. After they win another Emmy.

      I believe you.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Re: That email, my initial thought was ‘oh it’s fake’ but if that is the case, then it is merely a collection of various things GRRM has said in interviews. This email was supposedly sent just before GRRM started talking about the show as an AU. We know a lot changes when making TV, and that his books will obviously be different because of the things they cut. At least the journey to those end points I should say. There really wasn’t any new info in there, or anything to say that Brienne is going to be riding off into the sunset. So people can believe it or not and go on with their day. I saw the Reddit thread and they didn’t come up with any concrete proof one way or another, the only way to ever confirm it is if it gets added to that site dedicated to GRRM fan letters, which we know he write’s from time to time.

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    195. Mango,

      It’s hard to engage with something so delusional. D&D wrote Jaime as a bad guy because he is a Danish. It’s ridiculous. He is not even written as a bad guy.

      It’s like saying that they wrote Arya as a lesbian because Maisie is Benioff’s grandson. It’s just nonsensical on so many level.

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    196. Mango,

      Per your suggestion, I read the New Yorker review of the GOT finale. Here are some snippets:
      “Although I’d written two columns about the HBO series, I wasn’t passionate about it, one way or the other. I liked parts of the show and thought other parts were silly. The battle sequences were dazzling; the dialogue wasn’t much to write home about. I would have been Team Tyrion and pro-Sansa, if I had been forced to pick. I would have preferred for Jon Snow to stay dead.” So she was never a fan of GOT to begin with.

      “The Internet theory that Daenerys had been poisoned appealed to me, as opposed to the notion that she’d “snapped” and committed genocide simply because she was biologically insane in the Targaryen membrane—or, worse, that she’d gone mad because of a bad breakup. I thought there might be some cool twist, some snappy and quotable political insights. Maybe Arya would use one of those wicked face skills she’d learned as an assassination intern! But no dice” So she wanted a big twist with Dany’s character and was disappointed she didn’t get it.

      “Why did Dany even let him into her isolated dictator lair? Jon was obviously motivated to kill her. She had no guards. Also, while we’re on the subject of plot holes, whatever happened to that white horse Arya was on last week?” This reviewer doesn’t even know what a plot hole is, so how can you take her review seriously? Jon’s been alone with Danerys plenty of times before. As to his motivation to kill her, she doesn’t think she did anything wrong and has no reason to suspect Jon would want to kill her. And Arya abandoned the horse somewhere, lol. Not a plot hole.

      “It was clear where this was going. At last, my girl Sansa was going to get her due! Because, look, I may not be able to remember half of what happened on “Game of Thrones” over the past eight seasons, but even I understand that the story of a naïve princess who was married off to a monster, went through absolute hell, was repeatedly traumatized, got revenge, and gradually hardened into a savvy, strategic survivor able to make tough decisions under pressure . . . well, it makes for a nice campaign ad.” She doesn’t even remember half of what happened in GOT. Why was she chosen to review the finale? She obviously wanted Sansa to become ruler of Westeros, and was disappointed it was Bran, which goes back to what I said before, “People are simply disappointed D&D didn’t give them what they wanted.”

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    197. Mango,

      I’m not even going to bother to read your other reviews, because they are more of the same. I saw one season 8 critic say, “An Arya without revenge doesn’t make sense.” These critics clearly don’t understand the story or its characters. The art of constructive criticism is dead. This is further proven when a show like WU Assassins, the worst show I have ever seen in my life, received an 85% on Rotten Tomatoes.

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    198. Young Dragon,

      Professional reviewer lol. So this is someone whose opinion we should take seriously?

      One even said The Bells was bad because he doesn’t want to spend his Sunday nights watching people burn.

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    199. mau,

      I agree with you a lot, but I disagree with you about killing the Mad King. His scene in 3×05 made that clear. He talked about the Mad King who wanted to burn the people in their homes. So choosing Tywin over that is in my eyes the better choice.

      And about Ned’s man. Why should he be sorry? Ned said straight to his face he made Cat imprisoned Tyrion on his behalf. An innocent man who happens to be his brother. Ned’s man defended Ned. So why would he feel guilty about killing a man who protected a man who could result in his brother’s death?
      He also was angry at his own man who was unhonorable with sticking his spear into Ned’s leg.

      EDIT: And it’s clear Jaime dislike and hates himself for his evil deeds, his lasts words are a given for that. He is not evil at heart, not like Cersei who doesn’t care that she did evil things. Jaime is torn by it and realized he couldn’t take anything back he did while under Cersei’s toxicity. And made the conclusion he is just like his sister and only deserve her. With Cersei he doesn’t have to remind himself of his misdeeds. Shame westeros doesn’t have a local psychologist, I think many problems could be resolved with that. And I think Jaime could have stayed with Brienne if they had one.

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    200. And the most hilariously bad thing about that “professional” review is that someone paid money to that person to write twitter rant. She is reviewing a show, a visual medium, without mentioning anything about cinematography, soundtrack, directing, acting,… she just makes nonsensical comments about the plot.

      What qualifications that person even had to write reviews?

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    201. mau,

      Yeah, critical reviews have taken a serious downturn over the years. I don’t even know what point Mango is making. Does he think reviewers have final say in whether a show is good or not?

        Quote  Reply

    202. Given the response to some of the others reviews I may regret this, but here it is anyway,

      https://nypost.com/2019/05/19/how-the-final-season-of-game-of-thrones-blew-it-more-than-lost/

      This is after Episode 5. Forgive the headline.

      Joanna Robinson from Vanity Fair writes some good stuff about GOT, she’s a book reader and knows it inside out. Though she doesn’t do written reviews as such, she writes about different aspects of the plot and characters. She reviewed it on her many podcasts and by the end was basically saying ‘I’ve read the leaks, this show can’t hurt me anymore’ and she even liked a lot of it.

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    203. Mango,

      It’s all good, no hard feelings on my part. 😀 I know how that is. You’re in a hurry and write something fast. And yes I carry on just fine better than ever (only shame is that GoT ended that is a bummer). And I shad many tears from that sad episode of my life but I learned from it, and I even forgave it. Better to move on and be happy.

      And about ghosting. I tried to look at it from both ways. Why did Jaime do it? He explained it already, he is toxic person, at least that’s how he look at it, we all know that isn’t true, Brienne felt better because of him, he has a good side, but he doesn’t see it, he only see his own dark ghosts from his past. And maybe he was afraid if he talked with Brienne about it, Brienne would stop him and he would keep on being a bad influence on her. I think that’s very possible Jaime though like that. He will not be responsible again for something bad, he will not be responsible for turning the honorable Brienne into an unhonorable woman, another Cersei. But I think he should still have given Brienne a letter, explaining it.

      As for Brienne. What I learned about Brienne is that she is not a stupid person. She can read people very well. If we go back to 3×05 her bath scene. If that scene happened with Ned, Ned wouldn’t have cared about Jaime’s story, and still judged him, he probably wouldn’t believe Jaime either. Cat would have believed Jaime but wouldn’t care for it, or think he is just using that for an excuse. Cersei would just have laugh and say something that he shouldn’t care what others think about him. But not Brienne. Brienne saw right through Jaime, she knew he wasn’t lying, she knew it was bothering him really and not an act, she saw the real Jaime that he kept for himself. Why I think this is important for 8×04 is the following. I think she knew why Jaime left, that it wasn’t about her, that he loved her and cared for her, and even though she was beautiful. I think she knew the problem was himself, he didn’t love himself and hated himself. She would feel gutted at the beginning for missing him but I think she would put things in place very easily to move on.
      I think in the end she didn’t saw it as Jaime going back to Cersei and choosing Cersei over her. I think she will look at it that Jaime went back to Cersei not because he loved Cersei more, but because Cersei is his punishment (for better wording), that she knew she was too good for him or the version Jaime saw himself. Brienne is one of the few characters that I think could understand other’s like that and especially Jaime. I think for a while Brienne blamed herself for not changing Jaime or letting him see he is not the evil man he thinks he is, but the good man she saw in him and that she didn’t try enough. But after a while she would see she did everything she could. She would put him to rest with writing the white book.
      Then the sad part comes, which is both sad and also happy in a sense. She probably wouldn’t live happily ever after with somebody, because Jaime was her love of her life, he was not only the love but also the one that helped her gain trust as a knight, all who she was. She will probably never feel anything like that for somebody else. Which why she will make the choice to stay alone and join the kingsguard. But the happy part in this ending is that even what Jaime did, she felt more beautiful about herself after it then she did all those years before, and she finally didn’t have to hide that she is a knight and she finally accepted it that she doesn’t need to be ashamed of that.

      I really think it’s a shame that episode 4 and 5 weren’t both double episodes. I think I would have loved it if we would have seen more of Jaime and Brienne as a couple, and seeing how both felt about their relationship after it. Especially Brienne. Brienne trusted Pod and Sansa and we could have had a scene with one of those 2.

      Brienne: Did you think he really loved me Pod?
      Pod: He sure did, my lady/sir. (which one would he use)
      Brienne smiles half
      Brienne: I wish he saw himself as I did. And that he does deserve to be happy.
      Scene changed to Jaime, where we see him talking about not deserving to be happy.

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    204. Jenny,

      There’s nothing in that negative review that hasn’t already been debated to death. Jaime did earn redemption by riding north and fighting the army of the dead with the living. That doesn’t go away just because he wanted to save his sister and unborn child. Danerys was ready to burn Astapor and Yunkai to the ground at the end of season 6, so the heel turn wasn’t that sudden. Cersei did have a plan. Her plan was the scorpions, but against a dragon, she can only do so much. In fact, considering how the odds were completely stacked against her at the beginning of season 7, she did incredibly well. Varys is smart, but Danerys was about to move on King’s Landing, placing the citizens in danger, so he didn’t have time to be subtle. He did the best he could with the time he was given.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Jenny,

      “Did you enjoy following Jaime Lannister’s (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau) redemption arc, where he started as a dick, then revealed that he’s secretly a hero for an act everyone misunderstands?”

      Wrong.

      “Were you a fan of Daenerys Targaryen (Emilia Clarke) and her journey to overcome hardships and ascend? Joke’s on you, she’s a mass murderer! ”

      True. Since S4.

      “Did you want to see Cersei wreak havoc, either because you love her or you love hating her?”

      So this is legitimate criticisms? Whining about characters not doing what you want them to do?

      “Characters don’t need happy endings, but they do need to not betray the personalities we’ve come to know.”

      Well if you think Jaime is misunderstood hero and Daenerys is noble queen, it’s hard to believe this person ever knew personalities of these characters.

      “Jaime forgot saving innocents is a central part of him”

      Lol

      “Cersei forgot she always has a plan ”

      Duble lol And then example of plan is that she tried to kill Tommen in Blackwater. Ok.

      “it’s upsetting when it feels like the creators of a story spent less time thinking about it than you do.”

      Obviously some fans spent more time thinking about their own fanfiction than the real story.

        Quote  Reply

    206. Jenny,

      Think the same, I though Cersei was the best character the first 6 seasons. Jaime the first 4 after that he got side tracked and he became boring. Their stories were stretched so they could be in the endgame in the show. In season 7 and 8 I found Dany to be much more interesting then her first 6 seasons (logical she was endgame), but Cersei was just there and my least favorite character at the moment to watch. If she would just have died and be replaced by FAegon I think Cersei’s and Jaimes and Brienne’s arc would have been better in the long run. And I think it would have made Dany’s ending also better and more interesting. I would have loved to have the feeling already for 2 seasons that I wanted Dany to fail even when I wanted her to succeed in season 3 and 4. Now we wanted Cersei gone and the focus was too short on Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    207. Young Dragon,

      These people just write nonsense to earn money from angry mob of GoT haters. I have no other explanation.

      The only mistake Benioff and Weiss made is not treating their audience like idiots. That was wrong. Every character should’ve had long monologue to explain every move he/she makes. Exposition and more exposition.

      Daenerys should have turned to camera like Frank Underwood did in HoC and recap her entire story in a very very long monologue where she explains why she wants to burn KL.

        Quote  Reply

    208. Young Dragon,

      That’s fine, I’m not out to make people dislike the show at all. I sometimes feel that I’m not getting my point across very well, and it gets dismissed as ‘you didn’t get what you want so stop moaning’. I was all in for Dany going ‘Mad Queen’ I’ve said it for years, and I didn’t enjoy that either, I didn’t dislike a lot of the endings, I just didn’t like the journey. Anyway It’s been nice to discuss this stuff here, but I don’t have anymore to add really. I will just post a Joanna Robinson piece about Dany, which I hope works, you get a certain amount of free articles a month.

      https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/game-of-thrones-mad-queen-daenerys-hints-clues-book-shock-betrayal

        Quote  Reply

    209. Jenny,

      I just keep on building my theory. What if it’s true Cersei will flee to Casterly Rock. Jaime goes to her. But he comes not alone. LSH is with him. He kills Cersei in front of her to save Brienne.

        Quote  Reply

    210. mau:
      Young Dragon,

      Professional reviewer lol. So this is someone whose opinion we should take seriously?

      One even said The Bells was bad because he doesn’t want to spend his Sunday nights watching people burn.

      1) Young Dragon and Mau, you are making me laugh so hard. You are both incorrigible. And innocent.

      2) I cannot believe you decided to deride a review by Emily Naussabaum. She won the Pulitzer Prize for Criticism in 2016. I can tell by the writing style that is Emily.

      3) The other New Yorker critics are Anthony Lane who graduated from Cambridge and David Denby that graduated from both Columbia and Stanford was himself nominated for National Book Award for criticism I believe. (I actually prefer David’s work to both Emily and Anthony.)

      4) The New Yorker magazine is one of the finest English language magazine on the planet particularly if you are bookish. I would tread lightly on the complaining. Everyone that writes for them will win or has won the nobel, pulitzer, booker, national book award or something. Prizes are not the final arbiter of quality but those in the book world are still well respected as based on quality.

      ahhahahaha, you guys are so so so oddly funny.

        Quote  Reply

    211. Jenny,

      Well, first of all, I absolutely hate that title. Dany’s turn was not a betrayal, it was how D&D decided to advance the story. And it certainly isn’t their fault that parents named their children after her.

      “But could the show have given viewers a bit more warning?” You mean like having Danerys threaten to do the same exact thing to two other cities in Essos?

      “Rushing too fast to its conclusion and trying to work in the necessary, short-lived, and ill-fated romance with Jon Snow, Game of Thrones forgot to give Daenerys any friends.” Killing off all her friends and companions was the point. She had become alone and isolated.

      “Daenerys’s “best friend” Missandei, whose death seems to be the final straw of the dragon queen’s sanity, has barely shared more than a few scenes alone with her queen over the last four seasons. And when the two women do talk, they’ve spoken chiefly of men and sex. I’m not saying every scene between them needed to pass the Bechdel Test, but it would have been nice to have seen Daenerys talk with Missandei about, say, the death of her dragons, or the loneliness and isolation she was feeling in Westeros.” I certainly wouldn’t have minded more scenes between the two of them, but I also didn’t need more scenes to know the love Danerys has for Missandei and the effect and emotional turmoil Missandei’s death would have on Danerys.

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    212. mau:
      And the most hilariously bad thing about that “professional” review is that someone paid money to that person to write twitter rant. She is reviewing a show, a visual medium, without mentioning anything about cinematography, soundtrack, directing, acting,… she just makes nonsensical comments about the plot.

      What qualifications that person even had to write reviews?

      Young Dragon:
      mau,

      Yeah, critical reviews have taken a serious downturn over the years. I don’t even know what point Mango is making. Does he think reviewers have final say in whether a show is good or not?

      mau:
      Young Dragon,

      It’s funny that someone thinks we should value opinion of these ignorant and biased people more than opinions of members of Academy, who actually make television.

      I gave some specific advice about reading criticism. Let me repeat it.

      (1) Read across several critics on the same work They will also point out various things about the particular work that will help you understand it. They will often disagree – this will help you get different views on the choices made by the writer etc.
      (2) Read the same critic on several different products. So do not only read them on the Americans, but also read them on the GOT and SNL as well.
      (3) Read their work over the years. You will get a good grasp of their tendencies and preferences and know if you like their writing style.

      Keep trying Young Dragon, one day you will finally get it!!

        Quote  Reply

    213. Mango,

      The only thing that’s funny is that you didn’t counter any one of my criticisms. I pointed out the numerous flaws in Naussabaum’s review, and rather than defend her, you listed her awards and attacked me directly. As Mau said, Benioff and Weiss have both won Emmys for writing, and yet you say they’re bad writers. So which is it? Do rewards mean that writers are above criticism or are they inconsequential of our personal opinions?

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    214. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      I’m not even going to bother to read your other reviews, because they are more of the same. I saw one season 8 critic say, “An Arya without revenge doesn’t make sense.” These critics clearly don’t understand the story or its characters. The art of constructive criticism is dead. This is further proven when a show like WU Assassins, the worst show I have ever seen in my life, received an 85% on Rotten Tomatoes.

      Good start!

      That is a pity. I would not stop there!

      I gave some specific advice about reading criticism. Let me repeat it.

      (1) Read across several critics on the same work They will also point out various things about the particular work that will help you understand it. They will often disagree – this will help you get different views on the choices made by the writer etc.
      (2) Read the same critic on several different products. So do not only read them on the Americans, but also read them on the GOT and SNL as well.
      (3) Read their work over the years. You will get a good grasp of their tendencies and preferences and know if you like their writing style.

      Keep trying Young Dragon, one day you will finally get it!!

      Quote Reply

        Quote  Reply

    215. Mango,

      Look, if you need critical reviews to tell you what shows to like and what shows to hate, that’s your business. I am perfectly capable of coming up with my own opinion, especially since, from what I’ve seen, I pay attention more to the story and characters than most reviewers. I mean, Emily Naussabaum’s review was absolutely horrific, and she’s a Pulitzer Prize winner. If the other reviews are more of the same, I’m not interested.

        Quote  Reply

    216. mau:
      Mango,

      I cannot believe you decided to deride a show by David Benioff.He won Emmy for writing. Twice.

      Believe it! GOT8 was abysmal.

      1) Benioff does not have a great body of work as yet. It is early to say he is good or bad as a writer. Notwithstanding your dedication to him!

      2) Even great writers will have some work that is not great. Bad writers will have a lot of bad work but could also have some good work. Same with musicians, right?

      3) On prizes, the Emmy emphasizes popularity over quality as it is an industry award that takes monetary success into account. We all know that. Some great shows will never get anything. The book prizes, although still have some integrity re quality. In fact, one could say here that the most popular books rarely get any prizes.

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    217. Young Dragon,

      I think it’s a fair piece from someone who doesn’t hate the show, and understands why people are upset. A very knowledgeable writer as well, she loved the Jaime/Cersei death for example. But I’ve said pretty much everything I need to say, I didn’t talk about it much after the show aired but I have done it now. Hopefully I have made one or two points even if people disagree, or not lol.

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    218. Young Dragon:
      Mango,

      Look, if you need critical reviews to tell you what shows to like and what shows to hate, that’s your business. I am perfectly capable of coming up with my own opinion, especially since, from what I’ve seen, I pay attention more to the story and characters than most reviewers. I mean, Emily Naussabaum’s review was absolutely horrific, and she’s a Pulitzer Prize winner. If the other reviews are more of the same, I’m not interested.

      Read them and find out. You will learn a lot.

      Yes, I am interested in the view of others and how they see the world.

      I regularly read reviews for shows that I do not watch. Largely because I do not always have the time and because I am interested in narrative structures and I find reviews very useful.

      There are many ways to develop an informed opinion. You should try them.

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    219. People hate season 8 just because D&D didn’t give them the story and ending they wanted nothing else. Therefore they search for “errors” so they can justify their hate. I saw this with my friend. He called the ending bad just because he didn’t like it that Bran has become king and Sansa Queen in the North because he doesn’t like this characters. That’s just ridiculous.

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    220. Jenny,

      Joanna is an interesting person. After S8 on her podcast she said that S1-4 are perfect television and that S4 was peak of GoT. But I remember that in 2014 she on that same podcast criticized S4 and claimed it was the worst season.

      In 2014, she said that The Children is one of the worst GoT episodes. This year she claimed that episode was the first truly great GoT finale.

      In 2015 she wrote that GoT is too dark, nihilistic and enjoys torturing its characters. In 2016 she said the show is fan service and that she misses the days when characters like LF and Tywin would win.

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    221. Jenny,

      I think it’s perfectly acceptable for Danerys fans to be upset with her turn, but to say it “came out of nowhere” is being disingenuous. Dany’s story is littered with red flags that should have clued people in on what she was capable of.

        Quote  Reply

    222. Mango,

      The only opinion that I care about is my own. Why would I care about the opinions of others, especially since the reviews that I did read were complete trash, including one that you recommended? The fact that she won a Pulitzer makes it worse, not better, because now I know that her reviews are some of the best available. Let’s not forget how this conversation started. I said people only criticized season 8 because D&D didn’t give them what they wanted, then you pointed to reviews that proved me wrong. The very first reviewer I checked out listed several examples of things she wanted to happen and was disappointed when they did not. She even went so far as to say she didn’t remember half of what occurred over the past 8 seasons and misused the word plot hole. She was a terrible reviewer and I have no faith that the rest of your reviewers will be better. I’m not going to waste my time.

        Quote  Reply

    223. Mango,

      You are praising review of person that admitted that she never cared for the show,never really liked it and can’t even remember half the things that happened. On the other hand, you dismissed reviews by Sean T Collins, who has very deep knowledge of ASOIAF, GRRM’s work in general and themes and lore of his world. He even made Boiled leather, that made a lot of ASOIAF fans fall in love with the last two controversial books.

        Quote  Reply

    224. 🐶👸🏻🐎
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        Quote  Reply

    225. mau,

      Him picking the Bells as the best ever episode of GOT was bold, I don’t understand that at all, but he is on record saying that Jaime will kill Cersei in the books so I know he is legit lol. I get that he likes horror and being forced to face the reality of war for 40 minutes worked for him, but man, that episode was so boring to me. 10 minutes would have done the trick and Cleganebowl was a total snooze. His podcast was good after the show, I did feel like they were calling me stupid for an hour but eh, I don’t mind. Different strokes and all that.

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    226. Jenny,

      I still don’t get it when people told the Bells was too horrific. Yes it was horrible to watch because of many reasons. But when it comes to graphic the show gave us, was is really the most horrific of them all? I think not, it maybe the best directed of them all, and the one that puts a beloved “hero” to the last villain. But is it more graphic and horrible then the Red wedding? Or the many scenes in season 3 we saw Theon getting tortured? Or torture by rat (2×04). And many more scenes. Yes there were casualties. So the stakes were higher. But what made the Bells unique was that in the past the horror befall one of our heroes or ones that we cared about. Now it was executed by one that we loved since episode 1×01 and saw as the one to follow. I think that’s the biggest reason why people found the Bells to horrific, not what we saw, because when it comes to graphical showing horror some other GoT win in my books. And it seems I forget the burning of Shireen done by her own father instead of a stranger.

        Quote  Reply

    227. kevin1989,

      I must admit that I didn’t know that was an issue, the reviewer I mentioned really enjoyed that about the episode. People said it was too horrific? I guess it was, especially given the character doing it. For me it was like an over the top horror that uses too much gore, I just became desensitised to it and started getting bored. They chose to keep Dany in the sky and we never saw her up close again, they purposefully put that disconnect in place, which I understand from a character standpoint, that wasn’t our Dany anymore, but that just added to my eventual lack of feeling. Add in Cleganebowl and Danishbowl and I was just waiting for it to be over.

        Quote  Reply

    228. kevin1989:
      Jenny,

      I still don’t get it when people told the Bells was too horrific. Yes it was horrible to watch because of many reasons. But when it comes to graphic the show gave us, was is really the most horrific of them all? I think not, it maybe the best directed of them all, and the one that puts a beloved “hero” to the last villain. But is it more graphic and horrible then the Red wedding? Or the many scenes in season 3 we saw Theon getting tortured? Or torture by rat (2×04). And many more scenes. Yes there were casualties. So the stakes were higher. But what made the Bells unique was that in the past the horror befall one of our heroes or ones that we cared about. Now it was executed by one that we loved since episode 1×01 and saw as the one to follow. I think that’s the biggest reason why people found the Bells to horrific, not what we saw, because when it comes to graphical showing horror some other GoT win in my books. And it seems I forget the burning of Shireen done by her own father instead of a stranger.

      I have to quote our old Cincinnati Bengals football coach Sam Weich when he said “There’s golf to be played and tennis to be served up and other things to be done besides worrying about a football game.”

      I feel that way a lot now after reading some of the harsher GOT comments here. I enjoyed reading Jenny’s points because she made some strong arguments while being really respectful of others opinions. Also it made me more interested in finishing the books since Jenny refers to the books a lot. At this point I think it’s all been said about what happened in season 8. Some liked it some hated it and some are still really upset. I don’t blame people for wanting to voice their opinions but it does get hard to hear the harsher comments.

      For me there are other things like watching Carnival Row. I try to get away from GOT but there are constant reminders. Carnival Row had so many GOT related things in it that they tried to do it’s not even funny. And of course there was the Dorne connection and I even spotted Ian Hanmore of Warlock fame from GOT. I wrote a shattering review on IMDb and only give it three stars but it’s still in the vapor awaiting approval i think. I was so disappointed. So I can’t get away from GOT and I’m back here reading harsh comments about season 8 again. Thanks to Jenny and a number of others for teaching me something new. And yes Ten Bears for an Arya derailment. I just finished one of her chapters today in Storm of Swords and I counted how many pages until her next chapter! So far she’s even more awesome in the books as she was in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    229. Jenny,

      I like the name Danishbowl.

      But for me it was not too much. I would not skip this episode with an episode. But I will skip the Theon torture.

      As for the Dany motivation. I stay with my opinion that her motivation is clear. She spoke of it whole season 8. (and bits in previous seasons). I still wish there were more scenes. Another episode with her last part that pushed her over the hill. I don’t mean Missandei’s death or Varys betrayal kind of push. Her inner push. At the end of episode 4 she was shown to be mad. At the beginning of episode 5 she was already kind of messed up for better wording. I really wished we would have gotten those scenes. I wish we didn’t only saw the motivation but also the change itself. Yes she stood on the edge for a long time, yes we know what pushed her. But why didn’t we saw the fall itself and skipped those 2 weeks. I mean I can see how in those 2 weeks we missed between episode 4 and 5 she was finally pushed to far, her last bit of restrain was put off, but I would have liked to see it. Just like Varys trying to poison Dany. Varys bond with the girl. Let us be scare about Dany more before she does it. Her burning KL shouldn’t be a surprise, or more the coin that flips at the moment. Will she do it or not? We should already knew it before she enters the battle that that’s what she will do. Why having her say first: So let it be fear. And later having her act as the hero again and later again fire and blood.

      I also wish Dany was already dark in Merreen. Season 7 and 8 would be much more interesting and I think even received better overall even by Dany fans if we saw it already there. Wouldn’t it be awesome if we already felt at the end of season 6 that even if Cersei blew up the sept we would hope Cersei would win. That for me is GoT at it’s best. Like Blackwater, choosing between 2 evils. Cersei/ Joffrey vs Stannis. With on both sides good people, Davos and Sansa. Conflict.

      And wouldn’t it be awesome if Dany (which I think is Dany from the books) can put on a perfect mask as the perfect saint. But deep down she is already dark. We see 2 Dany’s on screen in 2 whole seasons. The one that Dany is, and the facade she puts on with Jon. Jon couldn’t see it, but Arya and Sansa could. And for sure Emilia would have pulled it off.

        Quote  Reply

    230. Tron79,

      She is. Arya is amazing. Already got the scene with her and the “witch” right after she played with Gendry in the mud? I shad a tear there.

      “I’m sorry, my Lady.” Arya suddenly felt bad for her, and ashamed. “I’m sorry I tore the acorn dress too. It was Pretty.”
      “Yes, child. And so are you. Be brave.”

      I really disliked that that scene didn’t make it into season 3. It was my favorite moment of Arya in Storm of Swords.

      And for Feast and Dance. I still recommend boiled leathers. That version is better when it comes to theme and effecting other storylines. And it’s amazing that Boiled Leathers put Tyrion and Cersei as closed together as possible. Which is an amazing combination after each other. (but they are in 2 different books).

      And agree about season 8. The problems are known, and they stayed there. I have issues as I even stated in this post. But I’m ok with it. We got what we got. And it had still many amazing scenes and parts. Many of my favorite parts of the saga is in the final season. But still I missed things I wished were in it. Lingering to much on that missing part won’t change a thing. It is what it is. So I decide to treasure the parts I liked.

        Quote  Reply

    231. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      She is. Arya is amazing. Already got the scene with her and the “witch” right after she played with Gendry in the mud? I shad a tear there.

      I really disliked that that scene didn’t make it into season 3. It was my favorite moment of Arya in Storm of Swords.

      And for Feast and Dance. I still recommend boiled leathers. That version is better when it comes to theme and effecting other storylines. And it’s amazing that Boiled Leathers put Tyrion and Cersei as closed together as possible. Which is an amazing combination after each other. (but they are in 2 different books).

      And agree about season 8. The problems are known, and they stayed there. I have issues as I even stated in this post. But I’m ok with it. We got what we got. And it had still many amazing scenes and parts. Many of my favorite parts of the saga is in the final season. But still I missed things I wished were in it. Lingering to much on that missing part won’t change a thing. It is what it is. So I decide to treasure the parts I liked.

      I’m not quite that far yet. I am making some progress today but I keep taking breaks!
      I may very well follow the boiled leather roadmap but it’s a bit confusing trying to jump back and forth and keep the chart next to me. It’s a lot of work! But it sounds like the story will flow better from what everyone has said.

      Yes I have many treasured moments in season 8. And I have found more meaning in what happened after visiting Dresden in person. I can also say just the experience of turning out all the lights and closing the shades and almost buying a better TV is testament to how much I enjoyed watching season 8 even with the problems. I will say I am still more upset with Mark Mylod in season 6 and D&D for their No One decisions. I have tried to let that go with little success but maybe watching puppets in Dark Crystal will help take my mind off of the problems in GOT. But most likely there will just be more reminders that lead me back to GOT again. The puppets look pretty awesome though.

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    232. Tron79,

      ”… And yes Ten Bears for an Arya derailment. I just finished one of her chapters today in Storm of Swords and I counted how many pages until her next chapter! So far she’s even more awesome in the books as she was in the show.“

      _____
      Even more awesome? How is that possible?

        Quote  Reply

    233. kevin1989,

      ”But still I missed things I wished were in it. Lingering too much on that missing part won’t change a thing. It is what it is. So I decide to treasure the parts I liked.”

      ______
      Precisely!

        Quote  Reply

    234. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”… And yes Ten Bears for an Arya derailment. I just finished one of her chapters today in Storm of Swords and I counted how many pages until her next chapter! So far she’s even more awesome in the books as she was in the show.“

      _____ Even more awesome? How is that possible?

      Well I have to say I imagine Maisie playing the scenes in the book that aren’t in the show and that makes them even more awesome to imagine. I’m sure it’s a different experience than those who read the books first before seeing the show. I do find myself wanting more Arya chapters just like I wanted more Arya scenes in the show. Oh well. I did make good progress today. Somehow I found the time even though I watched all 8 episodes of Carnival Row the last two days.

        Quote  Reply

    235. Ten Bears,

      Highlights of the episode, Emilia Clarks’s acting, her costume was just *chef’s kiss* Jon in the streets, Arya and the Hound. I liked the real character moments more than just endless destruction.

      Tron79,

      Thank you! That’s so kind, I always worry I’m talking rubbish lol. Glad you don’t think so. I think if i’m guilty of anything, its not being able to separate book and show, I’m terrible for that, I hated Prisoner of Azkaban for years because of the things they cut, but it’s actually my favourite HP film now. It’s better for me to read books afterwards so I don’t have the problem. Even LoTR, love of my life, made changes to Theoden and Faramir which I don’t like to this day, but thankfully the real versions turned up for RoTK so I got over it.

      S5 of GOT was a tough one for me because of the Sansa and Jaime changes, and its only gotten worse with GOT since the show morphed into this massive spectacle (loved S6 though). I’ll always just prefer the shots of 2 people sat in a room because they had no money with the odd battle/dragon shot, the show just feels so different and I’ve never really come to terms with that, I really didn’t need to see dragons flying in every episode. Basically I’m an annoying book purist, but the book has no end so I’m stuck with the show ending which I don’t like, or more specifically I didn’t like the set up to the ending. I need to know more about Bran George, please give me answers. Him having the best story just doesn’t cut it. And why was nobody talking about Jon and Dany getting married before writing it off? I just don’t get some of it.

        Quote  Reply

    236. Ten Bears: I can only wish my comments were going into Moderation purgatory; at least then I’d know the Lord of Light would resurrect them at some point.

      Instead, He is sending them to “That Page Not Found” oblivion, or nowhere at all.🤢

      I suspect the local ads rotation might have something to do with it…

      I am having this problem now. I want to reply on a comment but my longish post keeps disappearing..to page not found.

      Any clues on how to solve it?

      Did it just go away?

      I am traveling today so I hope I manage to post my response soon. Ugh.

        Quote  Reply

    237. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      ”… And yes Ten Bears for an Arya derailment. I just finished one of her chapters today in Storm of Swords and I counted how many pages until her next chapter! So far she’s even more awesome in the books as she was in the show.“

      _____ Even more awesome? How is that possible?

      It is going to be hard for me when I get to the last two (giant) books since it looks like there are only a few Arya chapters. My guess is she will be sweeping lots of floor in the HOBAW or something like in season 5, but book readers don’t spoil it for me 🙂
      We have three seasons of “Show” Arya that are after the current books end.
      My goal will be to average 50 pages a day. I did well yesterday…we’ll see how today goes… I hope I get to the Gendry/Arya scene Kevin mentioned today.

        Quote  Reply

    238. Jenny,

      Yes, I can see that I would have many more issues if I read the books first. Now it’s fun for me finding out the differences. I discover new parts of the world I didn’t know existed. If it was the other way around, I would probably be pissed about things they left out. That being said I appreciate book readers who have studied all of the details and have waited patiently for 8+ years for TWOW. I feel like I’m cheating in some way by only having to wait a year or so after I finish. I felt the same way when show watchers would tell me they never watched GOT in the early seasons and they just binged all of the seasons recently. They also didn’t have the experience of waiting two years in between seasons, which led to us creating some awesome fan theories, since we had to do something during all of those months. I am thankful to WotW for all of the great photos of filming and set building. It really kept me going. Unfortunately all of my fan theories were shot to 7 hells.

        Quote  Reply

    239. Jenny,

      Don’t worry. You’re not talking rubbish. And I like the discussion with you. We’re a bit of 2 sides of the same coin. And I like that, another view on it.
      And I had the same with Prisoner of Azkaban. Or even more the Half-Blood Prince. What did I hate that movie at first. They cut too much flashbacks, too much romance and comedy. But later it became one of my favorite of them all. It shows the contrast a lot with the next 2 movies, how much darker all became after the death of AD.
      And I see we are the same also with our favorite movie. How many time did you watched it? Or like me you lost count?

      And same S5 was rough for me also, it was a great season but still I felt they pushed too much into one season. I rather had a season 5 that we barely saw our favorites and put a nice introduction of all the new storylines (Dorne, Iron Island, Griffs, Quentyn etc). They really wanted to get over with it. They could have gotten away with it, if they just had a season 5a and 5b, like some other shows did. We as fans would think this is just the set-up for the second part later next year. S6 I liked better one of my favorites because it slowed the story down. We got some nice character moments. Theon Sansa and Sansa and Brienne in 6×02. Sansa and Jon in 6×04. Not having Jon back alive at the end of 6×01 but 6×02. Having a small battle instead of big with Bran in the cave fueled with emotional baggage. And like you I liked just 2 people in a room, or walking outside. Brienne became one of my favorites in Feast because of that. We saw how everything effected the smallfolk.

      And for me the reason why battles work in GoT for me and I feel excited about it, but not with an average action movie, is the same why I liked the battles in LotR. Because it’s fueled with the character moments before. Look at LotR. We got a 4 hour movie with the last one and only 30 minutes ca was action. (probably less even).

      But as my partner said, who disliked the last season. Not hated it but he expected more of it, because it’s GoT and the writers are brilliant etc. So he still loved it and found it better than other shows out there at the moment, but he hoped for an LotR brilliant kind of last season, in which it was perfect in every detail and every angle that could be shown shown. But he said that GRRM shouldn’t have given away the rights of the books before it was done. And that D&D should also have waited till the books were done, and same for HBO. And I agree. If all the books were on the table. George could have asked other questions before D&D could write. Instead of who is Jon’s mother. He could have asked. How many seasons is this saga and how would you cut every book into a season. And he could have asked a rough outline of the whole saga in which GRRM could agree on or give advice. (And I think the publisher of GRRM should have put his other projects on hold before he finished the saga)

        Quote  Reply

    240. Jenny,

      They did talk some about Jon and Dany getting married. Varys just left it that Dany was too strong for Jon and it would never work. She wouldn’t do well sharing the throne.
      They had the big scene with the three “old men” looking down at Jon and Dany flirting when they were plotting the idea of them getting married. That was before Jon found out he was a Targ. Then later on, they seemed to scrap that idea saying Dany was too strong for Jon and it would never work. It did make alot of sense though, since as I believe Varys said there would have truly been an alliance in the North.

      I was thinking as much as I really found hope in Jon’s ending, it was sad from both his Stark side and his Targaryn side. The Starks do best in a pack, and as Maester Aemon said, “a Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.” He was alone on both sides!! He was alone as the last Targaryen and he was alone as a Stark. But at least he had Ghost, so I still have some hope for him.

        Quote  Reply

    241. Tron79,

      Not going to spoil it. But her chapters are amazing. And if you go boiled leathers, so is the rest. And I think you will love Dorne and II if you see how much better it is in the books. Sansa is also better in the books. Have fun reading it.
      And one characters storyline is just brilliant in Feast and Dance

      Cersei her story is brilliant

      That Arya chapter is her fourth of Storm of Swords.

      Tron79,

      Which parts of the books till now did you wished they put in more time with, or done more like the books? And which storylines/characters did you find brilliantly put on screen?

      For me I wished they did Ygritte’s introduction more like the books. And having Jon and halfhands capture more like the books. That scene would have been brilliant if it were done like the book version.

        Quote  Reply

    242. *Ten Bears apprehensive about uncertain track of Hurricane Dorian*🌪

      Lord Cerwyn: “If the maesters are right it’ll be the strongest hurricane in a thousand years. We should ride home and wait out the coming storm.”
      Jon Snow: “I promise you, friend, the true enemy won’t wait out the storm. He brings the storm.”
      Orange Walder: “Let’s nuke it with wildfire!”☄️

        Quote  Reply

    243. Tron79,

      I hope you enjoy them, I think Storm of Swords is my favourite, I can’t believe how much happened in that book, by the end I was actually laughing to myself as I read it, so much payoff from the first 2 books. That’s probably why I’m such a huge fan of S3 – S4. I think some people (myself included) relied on the show to finally give us answers and confirm/debunk some theories, but the show runners had absolutely no interest in giving those answers. At least from that perspective I understand why people are so mad, they really weren’t keen on the magic, and I am a such a hoe for law lol.

      kevin1989,

      Oh yes HBP was another one! I did really enjoy it the first time around but I remember thinking ‘wow they have left themselves a lot to do in the final movie’ which of course ended up being split into 2 for that reason. They didn’t cover enough Horcrux stuff in HBP but its a fun movie. When watching an adaptation I have to keep telling myself, its an interpretation not a shot for shot remake. A lot of the time, things in a book just don’t work on screen, I’m getting better at separating the 2 these days, but I think its a common problem people have.

      I wonder sometimes, if I hadn’t read the books, would I have spotted the problem with Dany? In the book it was the crucifixion that had me side eyeing her. And her final chapter pretty much confirmed it for me, her hallucinations at the very least point to a darker mindset. But before S8, I was having all manner of debates with people convinced that she was this paragon of virtue, only doing questionable things because of the brutal world she lived in, she was just a girl looking for a home with a red door and had no interest in power. I loved being called a misogynist because I called her crap Queen lol. I seem to remember you were the only other person here who thought she was going bad and nobody believed you either. If Emelia herself didn’t know, I have to wonder if they could have made it more clear, but by then she had become the face of the show and a feminist icon, going down a dark route with that had to hurt a lot of people, no matter how many hints they left. With that said, I do still struggle with her killing the innocents without any real provocation, D&D said she made it personal but surely that is more of a reason to go straight for Cersei, something just doesn’t add up there, which is why I wonder if in the book KL will actually stand against her under fAegon.

      I admit that I watched all 3 Lord of the Rings movies 3 times each at the cinema back in the day. Cried my eyes out through RoTK, to this day I cry all the way through, I find it so emotional. I probably watch them once or twice a year, even the behind the scenes documentaries make me cry, its so weird. My heart belongs to Samwise Gamgee, everyone in the world deserves a friend like that, that’s why I’m so big on Jon and Sam in GOT, love that friendship so much. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields is still the most hyped I have ever felt watching a movie or TV show, the music gives me goosebumps. ‘ Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the worlds ending!’ what a line.

      In GOT I love Hardhome, but my favourite is Watchers on the Wall, I’m a big fan of Neil Marshall and he put together an amazing sequence. If you haven’t seen it and like horror, his movie the Descent is fab.

      I think GRRM genuinely thought he would finish, how crazy does that seem now? I have a lot of sympathy for D&D because of that, imagine trying to wrap up a sprawling story like this with some bullet points given over dinner or whatever it was. With some things, I think they just didn’t know the answer, I can picture them wracking their brains over Bran, I have no idea what point GRRM is making with that ending, and I don’t think D&D do either. Nobody is ever going to convince me that the Dragon Pit scene was good, a guy on trial picking the new King… I just can’t. I liked the rest of that episode, just that one scene felt way too easy for such a complex show. That scene was an episode in itself, the way they left it I’m expecting civil war any day now

      omg what an essay. How do I do this by mistake haha

        Quote  Reply

    244. kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      Which parts of the books till now did you wished they put in more time with, or done more like the books? And which storylines/characters did you find brilliantly put on screen?

      For me I wished they did Ygritte’s introduction more like the books. And having Jon and halfhands capture more like the books. That scene would have been brilliant if it were done like the book version.

      I have to say in the early books I was amazed at how much was exactly the same right down to the dialogue. But there are some differences that stood out so far…

      I love Ygritte’s crooked teeth in the book! That probably wouldn’t work on Rose Leslie 🙂 Yes, I agree that the way the book handles Jon’s capture seems more natural.

      Sansa and the Hound’s relationship is already much deeper (and important) in the books. They just touch the surface of this in the show. I am looking forward to them delving even more into this.

      Arya is even more fierce in the books with already killing someone during the battle with the King’s men who attack the Yoren, etc.. I liked the imagery of Arya being afraid they would cut off her feet for running, eating worms in the mud to survive, her wolf dreams, channeling Syrio with her every thought, and much more.

      I’m quite enjoying the differences with Meera and Jojen. Meera is much more developed and I quite liked that they were already present at Winterfell, and they have the whole “Frog” hunter thing going on. I also liked the Frey wards.

      There’s alot more, but honestly a bit hard for me to sort out, since the show tends to meld together (since I know it so well) and I have to think what was the show and what was the book! They are already calling Bran “Bran the Broken” in the books, so at least that didn’t come out of no where in season 8. But Bran thought of himself more that way and was anxious to learn how to fly, so the Bran story already seems deeper as well, even though it’s really just getting started where I am in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    245. Tron79,

      Yeah, I just felt it was dismissed out of hand, and probably should have been discussed in S7. They didn’t have to be in love to arrange such a thing. Not necessarily a question for you, but I wonder what had she actually done at that stage to make Varys believe she was too strong for him? Or that she would ‘bend him to her will’. Other than Jon being all ‘she’s my Queen every 5 minutes’. He started trying to poison her not long after. Perhaps I am forgetting something? It was before Missandei died wasn’t it? She had made the hasty decision to go south without rest, but what else? He had reservations about her after the Tarly’s but that didn’t seem like enough to poison her either. There must be something I am forgetting between episode 1 and 4, was it just the fact that Jon seemed like a better choice? Then she got all paranoid, but not really because people actually were out to get her. I felt bad for her actually, even though I didn’t particularly like her. Its like, I understood her, I just didn’t really understand other people’s opinions of her, because her descent seemed to be in response to a lot of it rather than the other way around. It’s funny because they actually got me back on her side for the first time in years, rather than make me question her more. I was all, ‘man, these people don’t deserve her’.

        Quote  Reply

    246. Tron79: It is going to be hard for me when I get to the last two (giant) books since it looks like there are only a few Arya chapters. My guess is she will be sweeping lots of floor in the HOBAW or something like in season 5, but book readers don’t spoil it for me 🙂
      We have three seasons of “Show” Arya that are after the current books end.
      My goal will be to average 50 pages a day. I did well yesterday…we’ll see how today goes… I hope I get to the Gendry/Arya scene Kevin mentioned today.

      I had been holding off starting the books until the show ended and until GRRM at least released “The Winds of Winter.”

      I’ve only read a few snippets of the books, primarily because so many ASOIAF fan sites polls selected them as their favorite passages, e.g.:

      • Arya’s “Needle was Jon Snow’s Smile” internal monologue [adapted beautifully – and wordlessly – for the screen thanks to Maisie Williams’s perfect ability to convey emotions with facial expressions].
      • Arya recognizing Harwin and crying out “You have to know me!” or something like that.
      • The “Broken Man” speech by Septon or Brother Somebody [inexplicably not adapted for the small screen; instead Brother Ray gave a different and less powerful speech].

      All of these passages were, in my view, brilliant writing by GRRM.

      I also read the pre-released TWOW “Mercy” chapter because GRRM posted it for free on his blog. I really enjoyed that too, especially the way the

      first person narrator speaks in the voice of the theater troupe acolyte Mercedane. and it’s not until midway through that it’s clear that it’s Arya “in character”, musing to herself; and then, of course, there’s the encounter with Raff the Sweeting (?) loosely adapted by the show in Arya’s famous S4e1 exacting revenge against weasel Polliver when she reminded him of the words he’d used when stealing Needle and then taunting and killing Lommy.

      I really thought that chapter was well written too.

      Since the general consensus is that the first three books are really good, and the fourth and fifth are kind of meandering and stuffed with filler, extraneous characters and plot detours – I’m tempted to start reading the Arya chapters in the first three..

        Quote  Reply

    247. Jenny,

      For Varys once he learned about Jon’s true identity and that 8 people knew already he chose Jon. His thing was he had to do what he felt was best for the realm. He felt Jon was the better choice. I think the scene with Tyrion and Varys talking in the ship was the turning point for him when he said it was no longer a secret and it was just information. He saw Jon as someone not seeking the power and making decisions for the good of his people. He had the better claim to the throne and he was a man (Varys’ words not mine). Once he made that decision he was all in at trying to assassinate Dany and convince Jon and Tyrion it was the right thing to do. He did see Dany turning to the dark side after her decision to burn the Tarleys. He also watched her intensely in episode 4 as she sat in the great hall becoming more and more isolated. He watched her as she observed Jon and how everyone loved him. You could tell that Varys was thinking Dany was already going a bit bonkers and the coin was flipping in the wrong direction. Yes I can have some sympathy for how Dany was treated. I have said before if Sansa and the North just gave her a little love and said thank you, things may have turned out very differently.

        Quote  Reply

    248. Jenny,

      I think I watched lotr over 40 times already. And still crying, I go into the movie, not this time but no matter what it happened. It’s just perfect. The music everything. The peace feeling at the beginning of total happiness to the horror later. Ride of the Roharim at Pelennor Field is still my favorite part of the battle.

      Same with me for Dany. I think the problem is that they wanted Dany to be the last WTF moment of the show. Like with RW in the beginning. That’s why they lowered the dark side of Dany in the show many times. In the books she is already darker at the end of book 3 then she was at the end of season 7. And I think they should have had it streamlined better throughout the seasons like George does with the books. And I think they should have been honest with Emilia beforehand. It helped Alan Rickman with Snape to play him and it played off. They should have done the same with Emilia. They did it with NCW, that he will be more grey then we think off at the beginning.
      And I really think in the books FAegon will be playing a role. I even think she gets a betrayal wrong in the books also. Once she comes back from the Vaes Dothrak and see the problems that had befallen Merreen I think she will put the blame of Barristan. Who we know tried to save the city and probably found out who the Harpy was. He was her man. But she will think he is still working for the Lannisters and is send to put chaos in her quest for the Iron Throne and he is the leader of the Harpy. I think she will execute Baristan as the leader of the Harpy before leaving for westeros.

      I think GRRM is too busy with all his side work. I mean getting everything ready legal for the prequels, for his other tv shows, for his wildcard story is not something that doesn’t consume time.

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    249. kevin1989,

      What happened in book! Arya’s acorn dress/witch scene that you said you liked? (Feel free to cover the details in spoiler coding for those who have not read the books and don’t want to know. I have not read the books but do want to know.)

        Quote  Reply

    250. Tron79,

      Team Targ actually sucks doesn’t it? I think D&D said that she wasn’t doomed to turn out this way, circumstances led to this break. So basically it’s all Varys and Tyrion’s fault lol. She listened to everything they said in S7, considering my distrust of the woman, I thought she was remarkably restrained in S7, she did everything they told her and lost half of her army. She took matters into her own hands and suddenly started winning. I don’t know, her squad got a group discount on lobotomies or something because they led her to disaster at every turn. I thought it was a bit rich for Varys to suddenly start worrying about her after the Tarly’s, he had no problem with her in Essos, but then he’s another one with an issue with fire, so I guess alarm bells were ringing. I wish we had more of those moments in S7, because it felt a bit swift in S8, and I don’t think she had really done that much to deserve it, especially the bending to his will thing, that felt like too much in that moment. I think Varys is the main issue I have with the Dany plot, he’s a bit all over the place, and actually caused the thing he feared in a way. I’m not sure if that is what we are supposed to think? Or whether the he had to do those things because the plot demanded it, because the cause and effect feels a bit backwards in his case.

      The North is also apparently full of ungrateful gits as well, I thought it was fair enough in the beginning, but after the battle, I was like ‘come on guys, ease up’. Jon was already distancing himself by that point and she wasn’t used to that type of rejection, I think she wanted a Mhysa moment wherever she went, and every man she met fell in love with her. Reality check I guess, I did feel sympathy for her in the end, but I still can’t get my head around the KL thing, and her speech about liberating the whole world from tyrants, but she was actually bonkers by then so maybe we don’t have to understand. Given what she did in KL, I wonder if her ‘liberation’ just meant liberation from life, and I never got on board with her breaking the wheel thing, she never told us what that actually meant, because restoring her family to throne isn’t exactly breaking any wheels.

        Quote  Reply

    251. Tron79,

      Agree with all the points. The show is perfect how it is. But still think some things should have been more like the show. And I wished GoT got 12 episodes since season 2. I really think season 2 should have had 2 more episodes. And it could have helped with season 3 and onward. Especially season 5. And it wouldn’t cost that much more because I’m talking more about having more dialogue scenes.

      Jenny,

      Agree, and it’s a shame she didn’t get that visions in the show. That’s also something that helped her get more paranoid in the books.

      Ten Bears,

      I would just read all. But boiled leathers for 4 and 5. And if you don’t want to wait that long between Dance and Winds. You could always start reading the first book, but slowly. Is it done wait 1 or 2 months for the second. And again wait 1 or 2 months between 2 and 3. Till the release date of winds is out or you finished all books.

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    252. kevin1989,

      I see you’re a movie buff. Aside from Lord of the Rings, what other movies have you really liked? I’m always on the lookout for great movies, especially overlooked gems. I’m also on the lookout for overhyped crap movies to avoid. (It’s a strange thing: My right foot is a sh*t movie barometer: When I’m sitting through a garbage movie my right foot starts to throb in pain. 🤕)

      I’ll share my Top Ten All-Time Favorite Films, and my Top Five All-Time Worst Movies. if you’re interested. (The same director, Joe Wright, has an entry in each of my lists, which I guess demonstrates the importance of a good screenplay. As once explained by a screenwriter – it may have been the writer of “My Cousin Vinny” – any mediocre director can make a good movie out of a great screenplay, but even a great director can’t make a good movie out of a shi*ty screenplay.)

        Quote  Reply

    253. Ten Bears,

      short version, the brotherhood of Banners brought Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie to the home of Lady Smallwood. Arya got a dress from Lady Smallwood too borrow, it belonged to her daughter if I’m remember correctly. But Arya is Arya and wild. And she started to play with Gendry in the mud, so that dress was all filthy and torn at parts. So in the end the other spoilertag happened. She said sorry to Lady Smallwood and told her the dress was beautiful. In which Lady Smallwood replied with that it was a beautiful dress, “And so are you.” adressing to Arya. Which for me is an important part for Arya. Nobody ever called her beautiful. Only horseface and other words. I found it one of the most beautiful moments in Arya’s journey in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    254. Jenny,

      Dany’s isolation from and loss of her closest friends and advisors (e.g., Missandei, Jorah and Barriston) coupled with dumbed-down Tyrion’s string of “clever plans” that backfired spectacularly, sure seemed to factor into Dany’s psychotic break.

      Also, you’re right about the Northerners’ inexplicable ingratitude. For that, I kind of have to blame Jon. He fed them the fake story that he sacrificed his crown and the North’s sovereignty to gain Team Targ as an ally, when the truth was that Dany had agreed to help defeat the NK with no strings attached.

      But one thing that kind of felt conspicuous by its omission, especially during drunken Tormund’s over the top praise of Jon Snow, and both Stark sisters’ reflective distrust of Dany, was that nobody seemed to acknowledge Dany’s heroic exploits in rescuing the Snow Patrol at the Frozen Lake. Tormund, Jorah, Sandor, Beric, and Jon all would frozen or been shredded to death were it not for Dany. I would’ve thought Arya would be fangirling all over Dany if she’d learned of the dragonriding Targaryean woman’s feats. Instead, it appeared that none of the wight hunters praised Dany or conveyed her exploits to the suspicious Northerners – or Sansa.

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    255. mau,

      No-one in GOT is every fully bad or good anywhere on their arc.
      Least of all Jaime.
      But his arc is one of the most interesting for sure.

      BTW – I rewatched the episode where Cersei and Robert Baratheon reminisce about their married life.
      Cersei mentions a first son who died in infancy.
      Did Cersei / Jaime kill a Cersei-Robert baby?
      Before making babies themselves?

        Quote  Reply

    256. kevin1989,

      No worries!
      P.S./FYI Joe Wright directed #10 on my Top Ten List, “Pride & Prejudice” (2005) starring Keira Knightley. Joe Wright also directed “Atonement” starring Keira Knightley, which was so lousy that my right foot was virtually howling in pain.

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    257. Ten Bears,

      OMG he did omit that didn’t he? Plus Tormand was all, ‘what kind of mad man rides a dragon?’ Er you for a start mate. I don’t know if it was the pacing, it probably was, but in S7 and S8 you could really see the puppet strings at work, I think that’s where the complaints that characters were slaves to the plot come from.

      I would love to see your movie list, with Joe Wright I’m going to guess Pan in the worst list, and Hanna in best. For me it’s Atonement in best, and Anna Karenina in worst, oof I really did not like that movie.

      Edit: Just seen your post above, wow your worst is my best! Lol how funny. Pride and Prejudice is lovely, but I’m totally obsessed with the BBC Colin Firth version. Did you at least like the Dunkirk tracking shot in Atonement? That long scene on the beach? I thought it was wonderful. My first intro to the goddess Saoirse Ronan.

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    258. Jenny,

      Yes to all you said here. She really just needed one Mhysa moment up North and it would have broken her out of her funk. But I have to say, Sansa was playing the game the best. She put it all in motion with deciding to tell Tyrion. The show was called “game of thrones” after all, and I have to appreciate how well Sansa played. She wins in the end ruling the North and keeping the North from bowing to a southern queen or king again, but at what cost to the people of KL?

      Jon’s whole reason for calling Dany his queen and bending the knee was because of her sacrificing everything to come to his rescue. He saw something good in her at the point and he truly thought she would be a great queen. He could have stood up for her in the North, but by that time, he was sulking about Dany being his Aunt.

      I am curious how far in the story TWOW will take us and how much of what upsets folks will be left for ADOS.

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    259. Dire guineapig,

      It’s a while since I listened/read the books and although I enjoyed them (the first three more than the last two) I don’t really want to re-read them*, but going from memory Cersei was pregnant by Robert at one time in her marriage but she had herself “cleansed” which I understood to mean that she procured a miscarriage. But if anyone remembers differently please feel free to correct me.

      * No disrespect to the books but there are loads of books I HAVEN’T read that I want to try.

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    260. Ten Bears,

      I can’t help your terrible taste LOL, are you going to reveal your top 10 list? I hope Aliens is on there. This might sound mad, but when I’m stressed I watch Alien as a comfort film, I don’t know why.

      Tron79,

      Yeah, Jon was sulking wasn’t he? His heritage has to have more relevance in the book, it served to separate him and Dany in the show but I still think he is the PTWP, perhaps they both are. Will we ever find out?….. If nothing else the POV chapters will clue us in on her changing mentality. Some people will never like it, partly because her turning out just like her father is super depressing, and because of the fact that she is a powerful woman brought low. It’s not a very 2019 thing to do, but I hope he can pull it off, people may not like it but it should make sense (fingers crossed).

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    261. Ten Bears:
      kevin1989,

      I see you’re a movie buff. Aside from Lord of the Rings, what other movies have you really liked? I’m always on the lookout for great movies, especially overlooked gems. I’m also on the lookout for overhyped crap movies to avoid. (It’s a strange thing: My right foot is a sh*t movie barometer: When I’m sitting through a garbage movie my right foot starts to throb in pain. )

      I’ll share my Top Ten All-Time Favorite Films, and my Top Five All-Time Worst Movies. if you’re interested. (The same director, Joe Wright, has an entry in each of my lists, which I guess demonstrates the importance of a good screenplay. As once explained by a screenwriter – it may have been the writer of “My Cousin Vinny” – any mediocre director can make a good movie out of a great screenplay, but even a great director can’t make a good movie out of a shi*ty screenplay.)

      I have to jump in. Is it allowed to be a limited series instead of a movie?
      Maniac may be my all time favorite limited series. Seeing the dad hiding away in his Avoid trailer with the green yard hose was classic. I have to tie this into GOT somehow to keep this thread legit though… There are no ties to GOT that I can think of in Grosse Pointe Blank (but definitely on my list of top 10). Keeping in the fantasy realm, I really enjoyed Tolkien, but I get pretty sappy at movies and I kept finding myself tearing up. For those HP fans, I absolutely loved “My Name is Emily” That’s one of those hidden gems with Evanna Lynch who played Luna Lovegood. It was shot beautifully, and I enjoy stories about interesting characters and unusual people. That’s all for now.
      Galaxy Quest is on my favorite list (since I’m one of those star trek people).

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    262. Mango:
      But Brienne wanted love. That was her preference.

      For someone who seemed to like the character and profess to understand it the way it was written, you are reducing her wants and desire something fierce. If that’s all you took that she preferred to want in life it’s hard to see what you liked in the character to be honest.

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    263. Jenny,

      Let me see if I can find my All-Time Top Ten Favorite Movies list. I prepared it a while ago to help pass the time for a friend who was going to be bedridden for a few weeks after knee replacement surgery.

      One caveat though…
      (to be cont…)

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    264. (cont. from above…)

      One caveat though: To make my list, a movie has to be rewatchable, either because of a spellbinding acting performance, indelible emotionally evocative scenes, embedded details that are easy to overlook the first time around, etc. …

      (to be cont.)

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    265. There are plenty of movies I really enjoyed, but didn’t feel compelled to watch again. For example, I really liked Lord of the Rings: Return of the King; and unlike some folks, I appreciated the “multiple” endings after the Aragon coronation, e.g., learning that Sam did hook up with that waitress he was telling Frodo about when it looked like they were going to die in the eruption of Mount Doom. Still, I didn’t feel the urge to watch that movie again…

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    266. mau,

      Never finished? Jesus Christ. He ain’t dead yet, you know…

      Jaime is indeed a more interesting character in the books, but that’s because he has such a rich POV.In my opinion it’s almost impossible to equate internal musings and thoughts and knowing a character inside out literally with a TV show or movies character. Can anyone really imagine all one’s thinking played out in an ensemble piece like this? For me Jaime’s life, bad and good deeds and tragedies would merit a movie of their own to do the book chapters justice. And yet, they somehow succeeded in capturing some of the essence of book Jaime while they changed the character to a very large degree up to Feast and Dance. I do wonder how much of the arc they changed with Bri or Cersei in the end.

      Will he murder Cersei? Will he return to the relationship of old with Tyrion? Will it be hate that wins or love? The final Jaime may develop different in the books and I for one, cannot wait to see.

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    267. Ten Bears,

      … Like S6e9, Battle of the B*stards, which was technically impressive in both the Dany + dragons vs. Masters’ Armada and Stark vs. Boltons battle scenes. Yet, I’ve never felt the desire to rewatch that episode. By contrast, S4e7 “Mockingbird” has several one-on-one quiet character moments on my Perpetual Rewatch Loop (e.g., Bronn visits Tyrion in his cell; Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell, relates how he met Tyrion when he was “just a baby”, and concludes with “I will be your champion”; and Sandor tells Arya about Gregor burning him when he was a little boy).

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    268. Ok, here’s mine, this list is not in any way highbrow, but since its a top 10 list, I am picking movies that I have watched many many times and will continue to watch until the day I die.

      Lord of the Rings – Absolute cheat, I’m lumping them together, but I will pick RoTK If I have to.
      Shakespeare in Love
      Alien
      Aliens
      Indiana Jones and the Last crusade – The best, I will fight anyone over this
      Return of the Jedi
      Beauty and the Beast – Cartoon I’m not a monster
      Sense and Sensibility – The Emma Thompson one
      Zodiac – I like a talky talky thriller
      Jurassic Park – Except for the bit with the spitty dinosaur, my mum had to take me out of the cinema I was so upset.

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    269. Mango,

      No idea how to solve the “That Page Not Found” diversion, or the outright vanishing. It’s frustrating.
      My secondary theory: sometimes the site algorithms are triggered by proper nouns, eg movie titles or actors’ names.

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    270. Jenny,

      Ooh, I like your list! I loved “Sense & Sensibility” – especially the scene in which

      Elinor (Emma Thompson) loses her composure when she learns from Edward (Hugh Grant) he’s not married; and every scene with Colonel Brandon (Alan Rickman). I was so glad he won over Marianne at the end.

      As for Aliens: I’m probably one of the few who liked Alien Resurrection the most out of all the iterations.

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    271. Jenny,

      Shakespeare in Love: another brilliant, intelligent film. I never understood all the whinging when it won Best Picture over Saving Private Ryan. And Judi Dench’s semi-cameo in S in Love was just as good as her semi-cameo in Pride & Prejudice.

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    272. Ten Bears,

      Oh I think its so witty and funny, and I cry at the end, a whole range of emotions. I was only about 12 when the movie came out so I wasn’t following the Oscar race. I will say though, Cate Blanchett should have won best actress for Elizabeth (nearly made the list) but she’s won a few so she’s fine lol. My dad loves Shakespeare, we used to go to Stratford to watch the RSC productions, he always wanted to see a ‘sir’ on stage, which we did. Fun fact, it has never ever rained when I have been there, in the UK that is a big deal, my favourite place in the world and only down the road from Warwick, medieval history is my thing.

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    273. Shawshank redemption, Interestallar, Green Mile, Dark knight triology, Harry Potter saga. And Shindler’s list because of History. That movie I can’t watch a second time, for obvious reasons.

      I would also recommend Sons of anarchy as a show when it comes to character building. But if you think ending of GoT was too bitter instead of sweet, skip it. The ending is very hard emotionally. But still one of the best out there in my opinion.

      Another one for people loving Fantasy and Scifi is Fringe. One of the best out there in it’s genre, I would put it in the top 5 easily. The story is amazing. It has done something no other show has done in that scale, and it payed off. Acting is brilliant. You care very fast for the characters. The build up to the last season is done brilliantly. And it had an amazing ending where everything payed off, every storyline. Too it’s core it’s about father/son bond which is done brilliantly. And amazingly acted by John Noble, I found his Walter Bishop one of the most iconic characters ever written and portrait on screen.

      Now seeing if the lord of lights give me his blessing and send this comment.

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    274. Jenny,

      I will give you this. You prefer the old cartoonish version of disney movies. What do I dislike (hate is too strong of a word right?) the cash grab move of Disney for remaking those movies. Only because they will lose half of their rights on the characters. Which mean if they didn’t remake everybody can use their characters in their media for free.

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    275. Jenny,

      Thank you. I’m going to put Beauty and the Beast (animated version) on my to-watch list.
      By the way: I’ve learned not to be a genre snob. Great movies can be thrillers, dramas, biopics. Westerns, period pieces, musicals, cartoons, science fictions, comedies, etc.

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    276. I really hate the disney live action remakes. Talking animated animals is one thing but trying to make live action animals actualy look like they are talking and emoting just doesn’t work for me. I saw Dumbo and Jungle Book and was disappointed in both. Lion King trailers looked awful (besides the musical is coming to my town later this season!)

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    277. Ten Bears,

      The Lord of Light has been stealing my replies again, so I’ll try one more time.

      Absolutely yes, Beauty and the Beast is a classic, Angela Lansbury singing ‘tale as old as time’ gets me every time, even my dad lol. GRRM loves Beauty and the Beast, I don’t know if he just likes the book or the cartoon as well, he wrote that show in the 90’s didn’t he?

      Brienne and Jaime is his Westerosi version, except the roles and genders are reversed, Brienne the Beauty is a cruel nickname, but she is a beautiful person. I think that’s why I like it so much, in fiction and especially TV/film, how often is a relationship depicted that way? Gold star if you can think of an ‘ugly’ woman with a hot guy in film. Normally she just has to take her glasses off and brush her hair then wow, she was beautiful all the time!

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    278. ash,

      Same here, and now they are doing the 101 dalmatians and Lady and the Tramp. Talking dogs with real dogs. Yikes.

      Jenny,

      So true except for Kitty Sanchez taking off glasses have another effect on her (Arrested Development).
      But your right, it’s annoying, woman need to brush their hair taking off their glasses and ungly man need a shave and again put off their glasses. Seems like Hollywood really hates glasses. And how many times a ugly man can have beautiful woman but not the other way around is also very annoying in Hollywood.

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    279. Thanks Ten Bears for getting me to think about this.
      I will tie it to GOT. All of these movies share things I love about GOT. They have strong characters. Many of the dramas have redemption arcs. Some are violent, but not just for violence sake. I’m not sure if I can rank them though, so in random order of my top 10. My tastes are my own, so I won’t be surprised if most of mine won’t end up on others’ lists.

      The Last Samurai
      (people either love or hate Tom Cruise, but this movie has it all for me, including a huge redemption arc. I’ve watched it many times )

      What Dreams May Come (Robin Williams)
      (Creativity out the wazoo. Talk about putting everything on the line for the one you love. What’s not to love about this movie. Robin Williams is unbelievably good, and without giving away anything some great emotional twists)

      A New Leaf
      My favorite comedy with heart with Walter Matthau and Elaine May…
      This is also for sentimental reasons, since it was my Dad’s favorite.

      My Name is Emily
      My favorite hidden gem and this could be my #1 movie. It’s a wonderful road trip movie with unusual and complex characters. I love Evanna Lynch’s performance. I find that Irish filmmaker Simon Fitzmaurice’s direction is just spellbinding. It’s a beautiful movie (and my daughter’s name is Emily so doesn’t hurt, and she’s a unique one as well). Unfortunately Simon Fitzmaurice passed away, but this is really a gem for me.

      Grosse Pointe Blank
      Violent but unbelievably funny to me with Dan Aykroyd, John and Joan Cusack and more.

      Me and Earl and the Dying Girl
      I loved Maisie Williams in “Then Came You” which has a similar theme of a teenager dying, but it can’t compare with Me and Earl and the Dying Girl. It had great characters with a very creatively told story that has something to say.

      Pump up the Volume and Some Kind of Wonderful
      My favorite teen movies. It’s a tie on these two and both are in my library.
      I love Marie Stuart Masterson in Some Kind of Wonderful, and Christian Slater and Samantha Mathis are great in Pump up the Volume.

      Galaxy Quest
      Just hysterical if you’re a Star Trek fan like me (or a fan of the fandom world). Love this movie.

      Kick Ass
      My favorite super hero movie, mostly because of hit girl played by Chloe Grace Moretz. Yes Ten Bears, there could be a bit of Arya tie in here!

      Alice in Wonderland (Tim Burton’s)
      Love love love this movie. Maybe this should be #1.
      From Danny Elfman’s score to the story of self discovery (can you say Arya again?).
      Just so many things I love about this movie.

      Little Miss Sunshine
      Again a great character movie with so many great moments and something to say.

      Doc Hollywood (Michael J. Fox)
      Guilty pleasure. My favorite feel good movie and watched it many times.

      Whoops… I think that’s more than 10…sorry.. I have trouble staying in the box, and I think some of these choices are probably out of the box. I just watched a Seinfeld episode with an old video store with “Vincent’s picks”, so these are Tron’s 🙂

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    280. kevin1989,

      I think it happens more in novels, but if they are adapted to screen they never follow through with the description. Brienne is way too good looking in the show, she is supposed to be legit ugly, and GRRM maimed her, so that there can be no doubt about her looks. Its understandable though, how many actresses could possibly fit that description? I can’t imagine anyone else playing her now. I can think of a TV example of average woman gets the hot guy, ‘Miranda’ a UK sitcom, funnily enough she must be 6 ft tall as well.

      Tron79,

      I haven’t heard of some of these, I love the Last Samurai, I could live without Tom Cruise in that movie, I remember thinking ‘I don’t care if he dies, just let Katsumoto live’ that worked out well for me didn’t it? Great soundtrack as well, Hans Zimmer was on good form with that one. Big fan of Kickass, Little miss sunshine and Galaxy Quest. For teen movies I have to go with 10 things I hate about you, a fun retelling of Taming of the shrew.

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    281. Tron79: Doc Hollywood (Michael J. Fox)
      Guilty pleasure. My favorite feel good movie and watched it many times.

      I hated this movie, but for some reason I always recommend drinking coke for indigestion now thanks to that movie (for better or for worse).

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    282. Jenny:
      kevin1989,

      I think it happens more in novels, but if they are adapted to screen they never follow through with the description.Brienne is way too good looking in the show, she is supposed to be legit ugly, and GRRM maimed her, so that there can be no doubt about her looks.Its understandable though, how many actresses could possibly fit that description?I can’t imagine anyone else playing her now.I can think of a TV example of average woman gets the hot guy, ‘Miranda’ a UK sitcom, funnily enough she must be 6 ft tall as well.

      Tron79,

      I haven’t heard of some of these, I love the Last Samurai, I could live without Tom Cruise in that movie, I remember thinking ‘I don’t care if he dies, just let Katsumoto live’ that worked out well for me didn’t it?Great soundtrack as well, Hans Zimmer was on good form with that one.Big fan of Kickass, Little miss sunshine and Galaxy Quest.For teen movies I have to go with 10 things I hate about you, a fun retelling of Taming of the shrew.

      Never saw the 10 things movie, so I’ll have to check it out.
      Yes, I really don’t mind Tom Cruise as much as others. But yes, Katsumoto along with the people in his village were all interesting characters.

      After listing these, I notice I really like the “Arya” style of storyline. Alice in Wonderland has a very similar ending and journey to Arya. See I got this back to GOT again! I am a guy, so I’m not sure why exactly. I do have a unique very talented and outspoken daughter who is struggling to find her way at 27, so perhaps that’s the reason. I’m not sure. That’s a topic for my own story one day. I may take GRRM up on his advice to submit sci fi stories to magazines as a way to start. I can’t think about writing a whole novel, but I have written short stories and I have more ideas. I think that was interesting advice from GRRM even in the age of the Internet to still submit to those magazines and get known.

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    283. Alice in Wonderland parallels to Arya’s Journey

      I can’t be the first to make this observation, but there are so many similarlities to these stories it’s not funny. I’m putting them in spoilers for those who haven’t seen Alice in Wonderland (Tim Burton’s version)

      Alice………… vs. Arya
      Danny Elfman’s amazing score vs. Ramin Djawadi’s amazing score

      Alice ends on a ship sailing off on her new adventures. Arya sails off west of westeros… both break stereotypes of what’s acceptable for a woman.

      Alice doesn’t want to be married off. That’s not her…….. Ayra is no lady…that’s not her either

      People are confused if Alice is the real Alice……. Arya is confused if she is No One. In the end, others finally see Alice as the real Alice…she finds her strength and her identity… and Arya figures out she is not “no one”…she is Arya Stark of Winterfell!

      Alice befriends a scary hound creature (Bandersnatch), Arya befriends a scary Hound!

      Alice uses a special sword (the Vorpal Blade) to kill the Jabberwocky…. .Arya uses the Catspaw’s Valyrian steel dagger to kill the Night King

      The Jabberwocky represents Alice’s key part of her journey (not having to follow the stereotypical woman’s role and get married off)…. The Night King represents Death which is a major part of Arya’s journey.

      I’m sure there are others, but probably people don’t want to read more of my ramblings, but the similarities are pretty striking to me. That’s why I love both stories!

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    284. Jenny,

      I’m a bit late to the party on the Team Targaryen debate, but I very much agree that Tyrion and Varys were completely useless to Dany.

      Not trying to drudge up the “Dany kind of forgot about the IF” debate, but I’m trying to remember why Tyrion and Varys also forgot about the Iron Fleet…

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    285. Jack Bauer 24: Yeah someone who didn’t like the final season was just trying to find anything they could to gripe about. Kinda like the “Dany kinda forgot about the iron fleet” nonsense. It actually made perfect story sense that she wasn’t concerned or thinking about the fleet. Everything adds up.

      You seem like a discerning fellow. Can I interest you into buying a book that I wrote? Everyone that reads it thinks I have brain damage, but I’m sure you’ll appreciate it.

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    286. Tron79,

      That’s a good parallel, I never thought of that. I think the great thing about GOT is how we can all find characters to connect with. At the risk of angering tenbears, I was never the biggest fan of Arya, but since she got to Braavos (in the books) i’m becoming more and more invested in her, which is funny since a lot of people seem to find that boring.

      My favourite show character was Jon for a long time, but then he seemed to leave his IQ in the afterlife, the only show characters I liked from beginning to end are Davos, Cat and Brienne.

      Mr Derp,

      If they couldn’t spot Euron sailing in and out of KL from Dragonstone in S7, then these people are clearly not meant for the sea. Why on earth did Davos travel by land? The only known character with any sailing experience? They caused Dany’s downfall with their stupidity, but at the same time Varys was so perceptive that he spotted Dany’s tyrannical streak because she was sad at a party (I’m joking but it’s kind of true). The last 2 seasons have made me start defending Dany, which is incredible to me, I was off team Targ in S4.

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    287. Jenny,

      No Tormund in your list?

      About the Euron attack. How silly that scene was when it comes towards shooting bolts from a ship, and keeping that steady for 3 bolts, instead of an attack on land. The missing part is very logical. Rheagal was wounded still, Dany was more concerned about his health, she was happy that for once he seemed healthy again, so like a mother her concentration was at rheagal for that moment. She was not looking at the water, her mind fully on Rheagal. Which for me made sense. And Euron used that to his adventage.

      It’s also ironic death. The concern for Rheagals health was his undoing.

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    288. Tron79,

      Guilty pleasure movies too? I’ve got a list of those!
      Not sure if the Lord of Light is still intercepting comments. I may just post one or two movies – each with GoT connections.

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    289. Tron79,

      Guilty Pleasure Movie:

      “The Cutting Edge” (1992) with Moira Kelly, D.B. Sweeney, and Roy Dotrice (Pyromancer Hallyne in S2 GoT, and narrator of ASOIAF audiobooks)

      I can watch this movie over and over. Roy Dotrice plays a Russian figure skating coach. And I loved Moira Kelly’s costumes.

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    290. Tron79,

      Alright, here’s #3 on my Top Ten All-Time Favorite movies:

      Hear My Song” (1991) – winner 1993 BAFTA for Best Original Screenplay

      GoT connections: Feature film debut of Tara Fitzgerald (Seylse Baratheon) and James Nesbitt, who co-starred with Maisie Williams in “Gold” (2014).

      Spoiler-free excerpt from review by Roger Ebert:
      ... I was in a discussion the other day about the concept of a “small film.” We use the term as shorthand, but what does it mean? That a movie has no major explosions or special effects, I suppose, and contains no superstars. But perhaps also that it prefers to look at people closely and with love, instead of destroying dozens of them in high-speed chases. “Hear My Song” is the very soul of a great small film.

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    291. Ten Bears,

      I’m going to have to check out hear my song. Awesome GOT connections.
      I did see cutting edge. May be time for a rewatch.

      How about this GOT connection. Roy Dotrice played the coach in cutting edge. Guess who is the narrator for the GOT audio books! Yes. Roy Dotrice. I’m not making that up. I think it’s actually the same actor. So yes you still got in the GOT connection!

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