Game of Thrones Series Finale “The Iron Throne” Recap

arya bran sansa stark the iron throne

The Iron Throne is no more. Like, literally. Did you see that one coming? Suddenly those $30K replicas just became a lot more valuable. Oh, and the Game of Thrones finale? I have thoughts on that too!

Spoiler Note, one last time, just for the memories: This is our book reader’s recap, intended for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section may contain spoilers from the novels, whether or not that material has appeared on the show yet. Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you have not read the books yet, we encourage you to check out our non-book-reader recap, by Oz of Thrones, which will be posted tomorrow!

Tyrion Lannister King's Landing Season 8 806 1

Everything Tyrion, Davos, Jon and the late Varys were afraid of, has come to pass. The Queen’s Hand surveys the wreckage of King’s Landing and it’s not pretty. Dead kids, hollow silence, and scorched survivors wandering in a daze that reminds me (probably purposefully) of images of the aftermath of nuclear bombings. This is what their queen has done, and now they have to reckon with their role in this regime.

Tyrion heads off to the Red Keep to hunt for his siblings, while Jon runs into Grey Worm cleaning out more Lannister survivors. Which brings up an interesting question, one that comes up time and time again on Game of Thrones: can we judge Westeros (and Essos) by our moral code? Can we call it a war crime to execute the Lannister prisoners? Jon Snow certainly views it as such but Grey Worm sees no issue with following orders when these “free men” made terrible choices, as soldiers. It’s punishment for their personal actions, choices made- but then Grey Worm may be using all of this as justification for his grief and rage.

In the cellars of the devastated Red Keep, Tyrion finds the remains of Jaime and Cersei buried under stone and embracing even in death. He weeps for them.

(1) Courtesy of HBO

Dany’s banner makes her presence known; she has staked her claim on the city, though we’re all left wondering where she found the cloth for that giant sigil and was she just carrying that around this whole time? Probably- she’s extra like that.

Arya stalks Jon on his way to see Dany. Maybe she’s adding another queen to her list since she was cheated out of Cersei?

Jon approaches, and we find Dany with Drogon rising up behind her, giving her the illusion of dragonwings- an incredible shot. Teeming with confidence, and surrounded by her legions of riders and Unsullied, Daenerys cheers on her men in Dothraki and Valyrian. Love or hate the dark!Dany turn, you have to admire the power of Emilia Clarke’s performance in this scene.

(2) Courtesy of HBO

But Tyrion isn’t quite feeling Dany’s speech about liberating the world, because freeing the world by removing choice and bringing people fire and blood doesn’t work out very well. Tyrion admits to freeing Jaime, but counters with an accusation of his own: Daenerys slaughtered a city. He quits the Hand gig. She doesn’t have much of a retort for that other than “Take him.” Once again Tyrion is out of work and headed for the slammer.

Jon does not approve, but is distracted by realizing his little sister has shown up. I appreciate how relatively unfazed he is by Arya saying she’s there to kill Cersei. She reminds him that Dany will always see Jon as a threat, knowing his secret heritage.

Imprisoned, Tyrion has found a situation he finally can’t talk his way out of. Or can he? Guilty Jon visits him in his cell. Tyrion lays out his own sins, before eventually getting around to discussing Dany’s- her habits of annihilating anyone in her path. Tyrion’s powerful skills of persuasion get inside Jon’s head slowly over a long conversation. He knows what has to be done; he’s convincing himself as much as he is convincing Jon.

It’s interesting that Tyrion touches upon points that have come up in fandom discussion often in the past week since the battle of King’s Landing- the burning of the khals, the burning of the slavers of Astapor, the crucifixion of Meereenese nobles-and how people can accept and even embrace these acts as good, so long as the violence is aimed at a target one approves of. It’s an uncomfortable moral issue. Daenerys feels completely justified, and so when she reaches King’s Landing, she feels secure enough to blast it into oblivion for the greater good. As Tyrion explains it, it doesn’t seem mad- it’s a chosen behavior, but still a destructive one.

Tyrion works his magic well though; in the end it comes back to Jon being a man of the Watch. He shields the realms of men, and right now Daenerys is making frightening plans. He still hesitates though because Jon is a good person, as Tyrion demonstrates with his moral exercise, with the firepower example in the scene. Although whether a good person could do what Jon does later? That’s another thought. It will probably haunt Jon for the rest of his life.

(5) Helen Sloan - HBO

Daenerys discovers the throne room in the Red Keep, and it’s exactly as it was in her vision in the House of the Undying, with snow falling on the Iron Throne. Yes it was a literal vision, not a metaphor. She touches it, and it’s a lovely moment. She’s finally there!

But Jon’s arrived. She reminisces about Viserys and his weirdo stories, but Jon interrupts cute story time to discuss the war crimes. Buzzkill. Dany debates the point, and Jon asks her to forgive Tyrion, but she won’t relent.

Jon softens and is in her arms. Here’s where Daenerys really stumbles; Jon wants a reason to accept her vision, and forget all the bad things.  But she says all the wrong things, fails to read the room and makes it clear she has no intention of letting anyone but her decide what is right and good. She’s decided she’ll be the judge, jury and executioner, essentially, to put it in our terms.

As they embrace, Jon slides a knife into her. It’s over quickly.

(10) Courtesy of HBO

Jon holds her, crying. Drogon flies in- sensing the loss of her? He’s like a dog who has lost his human, nudging her, trying to wake her, and it breaks even my heart. Rearing back, Drogon revs up his flamers, and Jon stands still, accepting his fate.

But the fire isn’t for him. Drogon turns it toward the throne. Blast after blast hits the Iron Throne until it’s no more. After all this fuss- the chair is melted away. Good.

Finished with the throne, Drogon scoops up Dany’s body and flies away with it, over the sea, until they’re gone.

Edmure The Iron Throne

And now for something completely different: time has passed. Tyrion is brought into the Dragonpit by Grey Worm for a trial, and we learn Jon is imprisoned as well for the killing of Dany. Yara, Edmure Tully (yassss floppy trout!), Sansa, Arya, Bran, Samwell, Brienne, Gendry, Yohn Royce, Robin Arryn, and others represent the new leadership of Westeros.

They argue for a bit before Tyrion points out they need a king because duh, no one is in charge. This leads to a bit of funniness with Edmure (bless Tobias Menzies), then everyone laughing at the notion of democracy, and Tyrion taking on a new role: kingmaker. He presents a surprising candidate with a compelling speech: Bran the Broken.

Naturally Bran isn’t shocked, and it takes only a small amount of convincing to get everyone on board. Except for Sansa, because the North will not kneel. They’ll remain independent, thank you very much.

The group accepts a new notion of government: the nobles with gather to select their kings from now on, rather than following inheritance. That is how they’ll break the wheel. They’ll exercise choice. (Among the nobles, obviously the poor don’t get that).

All hail, Bran the Broken.

Oh, and Tyrion has to be the Hand of the King. He’ll never be free of this shit. HA HA.

Jon Snow Iron Throne

Prison!Jon is looking mighty shaggy himself as he learns of his fate. King Bran has sentenced him to the Wall, so we’ve come full circle. They don’t exactly need a Night’s Watch anymore so this seems like a half-assed punishment but I can’t blame Bran for it.

Jon is still struggling with his actions, as he should be. Did he do the right thing? He doesn’t know. But he’s going to live, so he’ll have time to think about it. Heading to the docks, he comes across Grey Worm who gives him one last glower. We learn that that GW and his Unsullied are headed for the isle of Naath after all (I hear that Missandei/GW love theme playing, dammit. Quit playing games with my heart.)

Jon shares a goodbye with his family on the docks. Jon doesn’t begrudge Sansa for her choices. We learn that Arya isn’t going home; she’s headed west of Westeros, to learn what’s there. He apologizes to Bran for not being there, but the Three Eyed Raven knows Jon was exactly where he was supposed to be.

(8) Helen Sloan - HBO

In the tower, clad in new Kingsguard armor, Brienne sits with the White Book. Flipping to the page for Jaime Lannister, she begins to thoroughly fill in the pages with all his brave deeds. Everything we’ve seen throughout the seasons. As she reaches the end, she pauses, and with tears in her eyes, notes, “Died protecting his Queen.”

Brienne closes the book on Jaime.

(17) Helen Sloan - HBO

The new Small Council meets, and a new game begins. Tyrion straightens the chairs, juuuuuust right. Soon he’s joined by Bronn, Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden. Davos, Master of Ships. Samwell, in maester’s robes, presents a book- Archmaester Ebrose (the fellow played by Jim Broadbent) has written A Song of Ice and Fire, with Sam’s help of course. “I don’t believe you’re mentioned,” Sam admits. Tyrion is not thrilled.

The players set to bickering over funds, brothels, ships and nonsense. It’s another day in Westeros. That is to say: life goes on.

(20) Helen Sloan - HBO

Jon arrives at the Wall to find Tormund, a host of wildlings- and Ghost! (Yes, he gives him a patting. Are y’all happy now?)

Arya sets sail for her journey, as Sansa dresses for her big day. The final sequence is beautifully done, with the three of them- Jon, Sansa, and Arya- moving forward into their lives, accepting their destinies, at peace.

Arya sails with direwolf sails on her ship- her family goes with her wherever she goes. She will always be Arya of House Stark, she will never be No One.

Sansa is proclaimed Queen in the North, on a direwolf throne. She was born to wear a crown.

Jon ventures beyond the Wall, a wilding at heart, with his people.

The End.


(23) Courtesy of HBO


Additional Thoughts

The final sequence: A play on the opening sequence of the series, with the rangers venturing out beyond the Wall, we now have Jon doing so, with a much happier ending, I think. The music, the editing, the interplay of the three Starks’ endings- it all worked very well for me.

Drogon: It’s been a long time since Drogon showed this much personality and I wish they’d done it ages ago! I loved the bit with him sleeping in the snow, and his reaction to Dany’s death. He was a character, not just a weapon.

It’s over…. It’s going to take me a while to process it all. It was extremely intense, and I appreciate that they acknowledged the gravity of the actions for Tyrion and Jon but it also lent a heaviness to the episode.

A Song of Ice and Fire: We were expecting a book shout-out and there it was. I’m glad it wasn’t too hokey and sentimental, actually.

Costumes! They’re always great but golly darnit, the costumes were extra beautiful this week, with Sansa’s dresses, Gendry’s new duds, even the random lords at the Dragonpit looking so well dressed. I love the attention paid to detail.

The Iron Throne: I always thought they should get rid of the throne and embrace democracy but I didn’t know they’d literally torch the thing. DAMN!

Book reader verdict: Yes the book version will probably be better and more filled out. I doubt Grey Worm will be this present since he’s barely a character at all in the books, and that’s the tip of the iceberg. But I think Queen in the North, West of Westeros Explorer, and Back to the Wildlings Ways are pretty solid conclusions for the Stark kids, along with being King of the Whole Dang Enchilada.

Not bad for the kid who fell out the window. Congrats on the taking the prize, Bran. Not sure anyone would want it but it’s going to be a helluva ride. He can use “I’m going to go now” every time the Small Council meetings get boring.

And that’s a wrap, babes. Our watch has ended. Never fear- the Watchers on the Wall will continue as we always have, with the prequel series! But there will be another Long Night before that day arrives, and some of you may decide to step away.

It’s been a pleasure sharing this journey with you all, standing guard on the Wall.

Sue the Fury

Sue the Fury
Susan Miller, Editor in Chief of WatchersOnTheWall.com

461 Comments

  1. To get that giant sigil, all Dany would have to do is to use one of the sails from her ships.

  2. One thing I didn’t like is how the fantasy aspect of the story(besides dragons) disappeared after “The Long Night” episode. The White Walkers were defeated then completely forgotten about. They were defeated before and came back, will they come back again? I was hoping we would learn a little bit more that whole thing.

    Lots of complaints about Dany becoming “mad” so suddenly but to me it is just as bad we never got to experience more of this new Dany before she was killed. How changed has she become? Is she really mad? This whole finale plot line should have been plotted differently so we could get to know this new Dany. She went mad suddenly and then died a few scenes later. I hated that.

    For those who say R+L=J meant nothing because Jon did not end up as king, remember Dany loosing her true claim to the Throne was a big factor in her going “mad” in the end.

  3. George trolled D&D and HBO, right? Fucking Bran? Really? Good luck getting to that ending in 2 books.

    The episode and series ended when Jon killed Dany and protected the realm. He settles down with Val North of the Wall in my head canon.

    But seriously, Bran? The emotionless cyborg?

  4. Am I crazy for wanting it to keep going? I would kill to find out about Bran’s reign, Arya’s travels and Jon’s life north of the wall.

  5. Thanks Sue! I’ve been around since the WIC days, and always enjoyed your writing.

  6. Drogon was magnificent!

    I feel bereft. The series is over. What a wonderful show this was, they all were. It will leave quite a little hole in my life. Fortunately, I believe a dragon has nested in the woods behind my house. So there’s that.

  7. As far as relation to the book endings for the Stark kids, three of the four work fine for me based on what we’ve already seen — the exception is Arya. A wandering adventurer, sure. Sailing off into the horizon where nobody has ever come back from is pretty out of nowhere, particularly since her story (even in the show) has nothing to do with being a sailor. Indeed, in Fire & Blood GRRM gave us Elissa Farman, who does have that dream and the background for it.

    The narrative mechanics of Bran becoming King of the South even though the North seceded are…questionable. If that is the book ending, GRRM has some work to do to make it plausible; the show certainly didn’t.

    Jon not being immediately executed by Grey Worm was such a huge contrivance the show didn’t even try to explain it and time jumped ahead.

    The moment I did like was the lords guffawing at Sam’s democracy proposal, which was an entirely apt rejoinder to the various unsupported fan theories that democracy was suddenly going to break out in Westeros. That was never remotely what the show or the books were about.

    Yara seems to have forgotten that she cut a deal to make the Iron Islands independent back in Season 6.

    Also, no Gilly this episode, so no idea how she fits into Sam’s life now that he’s somehow the Grand Maester (despite not even being a maester).

  8. Tyrion Pimpslap:

    But seriously, Bran? The emotionless cyborg?

    I’m reminded of Isaac Asimov’s robot stories. And face it: Westeros could (and has) done a lot worse than an emotionless cyborg.

  9. And thanks to all the other awesome contributors, also been following since WIC.net days and appreciate everything you guys have done!

  10. I found it extremely satisfying. Sansa’s Costumes were extraordinary! Especially thevweirwoorg

  11. To the writers of the last season of Game of Thrones and especially the last two episodes…”Dracarys!” The ending was almost criminal! It was a devastatingly, complete separation from the last seven years of story line development, plot progression, historical foundations, the understanding of bloodlines, heirs and rightful heirs. It was a horrendous, anticlimactic, culmination of several out of character portrayals.”When a character acts out of character, what this really means is that the writer has failed to sustain the causal believability of his character’s actions.” They shouldn’t have shifted Dany’s character into the mad queen after building her up from the ashes to become the mother of dragons, a promised ruler who would free the slaves and fight for the innocent. As we know, all of these years, the story has built up to Jon’s revelation that he is the rightful heir. Bran’s big reveal to Jon’s sister’s, stating that Jon was the rightful heir was slashed to pieces with Bran, all of a sudden being crowned king in the last episode as if it was always meant to be, when the story line and plot of the last seven years never built up to that at all! A possible, more consistent ending with Dany and Jon maintaining their characters, completing the 7 year’s long established “believable” story line and plot, would have been in the next to the last episode, that Dany would save King’s landing after the surrender, head to the Red Keep with Jon, Davos and Grey Worm at her side and pursue Cersei and Jaime who were trying to escape down into the cellars of the Red Keep where the dragon’s skulls were. They overtake them, and Jaime attempts to protect Cersei by drawing his sword and ends up fighting with Jon. There is a moment when the fighting comes close to Dany; Jon stumbles backwards on a scull or rock, losing his sword. Just as Jaime is about to stab Jon, Dany impulsively steps in, and Jaime stabs Dany, instead. Grey Worm, in turn, stabs Jaime. He dies quickly, while Jon is holding Dany in his arms, all choked up. Davos restrains Cersei as she cries out for Jaime. As Dany is dying, she tells Jon that he is the rightful heir, she knows that he will make a great king. She tells him that she will always love him and dies in his arms. She is brought up, being carried by Jon and gently laid in full view of her army and the people. Her dragon sweeps down and expresses his grief by scorching some of the area, bellowing out his anguish in a dramatic display. After this, the dragon, comes close to Jon’s face and bows in acknowledgement that he swears his allegiance to him and takes a couple of powerful steps behind Jon, as if to say, “I am behind you, now, as you are the rightful heir.” Last episode, Jon is crowned king, sits on the Iron throne and finally gives Cersei the dramatic, long awaited sentence that she deserves and that the fans have all been waiting for: to see her come to a bitter end. Samwell becomes the maester, standing by Jon’s side as he sits on the throne with his sisters close, the North men, the whole lot of them are there for the coronation. At least something along this line and then fill in the blanks of all the other sub plots and this would have been a much more believable finale than the ridiculous enormous, agonizing let down we all endured.

  12. Isn’t the whole point of Bran being appointed king that because he has no desire for power and can’t reproduce, so, the country is ruled by council, which is a small step towards ending monarchy? Like, that’s why the Iron Throne was torched. It’s not one person ruling everything anymore. Democracy got laughed off, for now, but it’s no longer an impossible dream. I took that as the point of it.

    Interesting that they didn’t do an inside the episode. Are they saving it for that documentary that’s airing next week?

  13. Thank you Sue and everyone here at Watchers on The Wall. I have loved coming here the past so many years. It was a great place to discuss the show with so many fellow watchers. A lot of different opinions, but that made it more interesting. I learn a great deal here. Thank you!
    The past years I checked this site several days a week. I will do so for the next days, but after that it’ll be a lot less. I don’t know if I’ll watch the prequels. For me Game of Thrones ended here. And I loved every minute of the ride. But now it’s time to move on.

  14. Thumbs up. I did want some slight twist at the end (not sure what, nothing nuts like a White Walker appearing, but, I dunno, one last scene with Drogon having laid some eggs over in Essos).

    A number of gorgeous shots and sequences.

  15. weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee,

    No, Bran is king. He’s just not attending that small council meeting, like Robert.

    Whoever the next elected king is will probably not share his disposition.

    And the North, of course, retained its hereditary system, so nothing changed there.

  16. Can there be a curtain call post for all of you who run the site? So we can praise you? I think the one thing we can all agree on is that we appreciate you all!

  17. I had my issues with it but am satisfied overall. Not what i expected but I think thats what most people are pissed about. We all expected Bran to do something but King? Ok. Story was epic. Loved it and the immersive universe. Also I hope HBO can nail His Dark Materials and it turns out to be great. I liked the Golden Compass movie but I guess nobody else did since they only made the one movie. Show looks dope.
    Back To GOT, where they started in season 1.1 first scene 1 prologue, nights watch scared to death running back south because of the slaughter they found left by the others. Bookended with the closing scene of season 8.6 last scene Jon returning the wildings back home to the north with no fear of the others but ready to settle and restart a new life. Cool.
    Hope GRRM finishes WoW. Even if he doesnt finish the next 2 or 3 books I would like to see where the original story is going.
    Im reading Peter Straub Ghost Story but does anybody else recommend any other reading materials beside wheel of time? Ive heard thomas covenant books are good. Also heard good things abou terry goodkind but Im always looking for a new series to sink my teeth into? Thanks. Sorry for drunk post GOT finale ramblings

  18. So let me get this straight…

    The whole reason to bring Jon back from the death, was for him to reject Daenerys, so she would feel abandoned by everyone, so she would choose fear over love? 🤨

    And are we going yo ignore the fact, that Bran pretty much played everyone, so he would become a king. He gave just enough information, do he could make people make the right moves. He played the game, and other characters were hus pawns.

    And Sansa. Her big mouth was the nail to Daenerys’ the coffin. And she gets a crown as a reward?

    I wonder what was the ‘sweet’ part in this bittersweet ending. To me, it just seems like a season, that’s filled with Stark fan service. 🤷

    It seems that no other house mattered. Only house that mattered, was the Disney-family of GOT: the Starks.

  19. Ghost!

    Sorry, but anything else in this episode paled in comparison to that scene.

  20. Firstly, I want to thank everyone on this web. A book-reader since the early 2000s, I’ve been lurking around here (damn that sounded creepy) since the series got greenlighted, never to write until now (excuse my shyness).

    You’ve done an AMAZING job and it’s been an honor being a shadow member of this watch. Thanks Sue, Luka, Akash, Petra, Oz, Joe… The Realm is in debt with your Small Council.

    Now, the end. Could have been better? Of course. Rushing, underwhelmed dialogue and thinned plots must be addressed. Will be the same in the books? Some plots put aside (PTWP, AA, Mance, FAegon, Stoneheart, Bronn/Beric/GW), most of it will be the same, just arriving in a different way and fleshed out.

    Did I love it? HELL YEAH. I got what I wanted, and that’s more than enough for me. Some of my favorite characters didn’t make it, some others could have been handled better and, for the rest, they are now where they belong to. Queen, Traveller, Brother, Hand, Knight, Maester, Adviser… and King. Hail Bran the Broken, King of the BIGGEST TROLLFACE EVER. Years reading the books looking for clues, discussing every theory… and I didn’t see that coming.

    A perfect ending? That doesn’t exist, not even Breaking Bad or The Wire had it. Most people won’t be pleased for many reasons, but I am and that’s all that matters to me. Thanks to GRRM and everyone involved in this series.

    And now my watch has ended.

  21. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I kind of agree that after Drogon melted the throne, it started to feel very differently. So Westeros goes for a ceremonial King without succession line, who is chosen by the lords? In addition: why would the South choose a Stark, when even the North doesn’t, especially when nobody knows Bran, and besides that he doesn’t want it, has no other qualification for ruling (which is maybe not the best qualification either)? Maybe to avoid themselves battling each other for the succession, but then they could have just as well chosen another Targaryen… Or more likely, each Kingdom independent. But Tyrion played them well, faking his non-interest to become Hand of the King (I can imagine that part to be in the books)

    Why not having Drogon defend Jon against the Unsullied, then forcing the Unsullied and Dothraki to make a peace treaty or leave for Essos/Naath, and Jon giving up the crown and establishing a council of lords in the south, chaired by Tyrion, granting the north independence, and then setting of with the wildlings?

    And if Bran steered everyone to get this outcome, he is a war criminal too.

  22. Did anyone notice Podrick was knighted too? Brienne called him ser Podrick at the Small Council.

  23. Well, that went as well as could be expected. I do love an open ended ending. Looking forward to processing with everyone during the week, and after the “Making Of” doc.

  24. I got the feeling that Bran was manipulating people and events all along. See his lines to Tyrion and Jon in this episode. He always knew what was going to happen.

    Can’t stop thinking of Theon and feeling sorry for him…

    I still need to process everything that happened. After this episode, I certainly will rewatch the show and reread the books to get more hints.

  25. Drogon was the standout acting this episode. Loved him. And going off to who-knows-where….I didn’t expect any dragons to survive the series (hands off, Bran!).

    The melted throne was something I had wanted to happen, although I thought it might be turned into something useful. Pity they didn’t listen to Sam’s suggestion of democracy. But of course that wouldn’t fly.

    Sad about Dany, of course, and her story really suffered at the shortened seasons, imo. Too fast to turn. Emilia really gave it her all this season, she was brilliant and turned me from fairly neutral, to wanting her to survive, although of course she couldn’t.

    Sansa got to be queen and got her crown and pretty things. Good for her, it’s all she ever wanted, after all. Perfect circle.

    Arya, go discover wonderful things. But come back now and again, k?

    Jon will probably be happier now than he would ever have been able to surrounded by talking heads, politics, and schemers. I love that he has Tormund and Ghost.

    Bran….uh. Was hoping that was going to turn out not to be true, but why not. Tyrion is the hand that will rule.

    Things I loved – Drogon in the snow (actually, everything Drogon), Dany’s wings, Tyrion being slightly more like the Tyrion of old, seeing Edmure again, Robin having pulled a Neville Longbottom coming-of-age, DAVOS SURVIVING YES THANK YOU GOD, Jon’s truly happy smile meeting Ghost again.

    Things that annoyed me – mostly small things like strange inconsistencies in the weather, Grey Worm teleporting, things given the ‘x weeks later’ treatment instead of explained, and Jaime and Cersei looking like it was naptime instead of oh shit a stone building caved in on us.

    6/10. More characters survived than I thought, which is fine. My 2 favourites were already gone, so I wasn’t as invested as some.

    These last 3 episodes were some of the weakest on my list. I loved the first 3, particularly Ep.2.

    I rather wish we had ended when Pod sang Jenny of Oldstones. 🙂 But the series will always have my heart.

  26. Tanks Watchers staff. For everything.

    I am going to repost my Facebook post, with the added caveat that I liked the ending overall.

    PPS: House Stark on top.
    WINTER IS COMING
    PpPS: house Frey is still dead.

  27. Fog,

    > I got the feeling that Bran was manipulating people and events all along.

    Yes, his “I don’t want to be King” didn’t sound sincere. And that means he steered everyone to achieve his crown, including the burning of King’s Landing…

  28. Chilli:
    Did anyone notice Podrick was knighted too? Brienne called him ser Podrick at the Small Council.

    Yes, that was awesome! 😊

  29. And thus ends what promised to be the greatest TV show of all time, betrayed and raped by the very creators who started it. Good luck for HBO with its spin-offs after what they did here. And long may WoTW reign with the spin-offs. I am done with GoT forever. My watch has ended.

  30. Sean C.:
    weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee,

    No, Bran is king.He’s just not attending that small council meeting, like Robert.

    Whoever the next elected king is will probably not share his disposition.

    And the North, of course, retained its hereditary system, so nothing changed there.

    I saw baby’s first steps towards enlightenment. That is, baby step. It’d have been absurd to change from a monarchy to a democracy in an episode. But there’s a whole different vibe now. Succession isn’t quite so important. Imperfect, but an improvement. Which is actually pretty realistic. I don’t know what the hell show you were watching if you think the takeaway was supposed to be that Bran is just another king like any other.

  31. Bravo Sue! Excellent recap, as always. And yes. I am VERY happy that Jon pet Ghost 😃

    IMO, the finale nailed it. My only criticisms of the season would be the pace (some developments were too rushed) and the loss of Varys. I don’t see any reason why he couldn’t have survived to see change in the monarchy and realm 😕 He certainly worked the longest for it.

    Loved Davos picking up Stannis’ grammar peeve!

    Loved Drogon torching the throne! He knew his mama’s true enemy was the lure of power.

    Thank you, all involved in this epic adventure! The stories will be told for ages!!

  32. rizwan:
    And thus ends what promised to be the greatest TV show of all time, betrayed and raped by the very creators who started it. Good luck for HBO with its spin-offs after what they did here. And long may WoTW reign with the spin-offs. I am done with GoT forever.My watch has ended.

    This was like rape in the same way that MRAs call child support “divorce rape.” That is, not comparable to rape in the slightest. Wtf?

  33. Game of Thrones helped get me through a rough patch. It will be missed.

  34. Whatever other thoughts I have about the season – and I have many! – I was very moved by the final sequence. I loved the way that Arya’s final scene of Season 8 mirrored the final scene of Season 4: sailing East then and West now.

    It seems clear now that Arya’s TV arc was modelled on that of Frodo: I hope I’ll get the chance to see whether that’s also true of the books.

    “And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water.”

    Of course, in a narrative with the more realistic tone of ASOIAF, the arrival of a boat from the West wouldn’t necessarily spell good news for the singers… I wonder whether we’ll ever find out if that is the direction (in both senses) that Arya heads in the books.

    Thank you, Watchers, for all your wonderful work over the years!

  35. Nina,

    The reason Jon was brought back was for the Lord of Light to defeat the Great Other, whose physical manifestation was the night king. Called forth by the Children using dark magic.

    He was also the only person who could get close enough to Dany to usher in the new and lay the old to rest.

    Then he returned to the far North, the home of Ygritte, maybe see the cave again.. find a wife, raise a family free of the power people have always tried to thrust upon him, but he has never wanted.

    He had no right to be alive, but a quiet existence North of the wall is a happy and absolutely perfect ending for him.

  36. I just want to thank everyone who was associated with this site, and previously WIC. It was a fun and amazing experience to be a part of this fandom. The journey was all that mattered. And I wouldn’t change a thing.

    – Always Support The Bottom!

  37. Bufferzone,

    Speaking of, do you think we could drove parallels with Dragons and Silmarils as well?
    I’m tolking of the fact that the three dragons find their place in the world: One in the see (Rheagal), one on the ground (Viseryon) and one in the sky (Drogon, being alive).
    Just as the Silmarils get set one in the see, one underground and one brought in the sky by Earendil the Sailor.

  38. I’m still so emotional after having watched the end of his wonderful show. Going into this episode I was afraid that it was going to add more bitterness to the ending (aside from the obvious tragedy of Dany dying) with even more main character deaths. Yeah yeah, I know some people probably wanted more huge, shocking deaths, but not me.

    I’m very pleased that the remaining Starks ended strong. Sansa as ruler in the North, Bran as King (when I first heard this theory leading up to this season, I scoffed..), and Arya — ASNAWP — sailing off West. Yes!!!! And on a ship with Stark sails. She is, and always was, Arya Stark of Winterfell!

  39. Too lazy to write something new, so here is my copy-and-paste repeat:

    Over a decade ago, when I heard that George RR Martin’s extraordinary cycle of novels, “A Song Of Ice And Fire” were being optioned to HBO for TV series, I was happy, apprehensive, doubtful and all manner of other emotions and thoughts. I also found this community of fans, then on the old WinterIsComing website . Lucky for me. Then it all moved here to WatchersOnTheWall. This community has been my guide, repository of knowledge and a shared experience like none other.

    In the years after, I followed the ebb and flow of the show’s development until in 2011 when it all came together and it was suddenly here…reality…seeing the first scene at The Wall with the gate opening and our first view of the North (the real North as Thormund would say).

    And so began a love-affair, appreciation and deep gratitude with and towards “Game Of Thrones”. And now the end has come and how fitting that the last shot is of the Wall again, the North and the hopeful but uncertain tomorrow.

    To call this show a masterpiece would not do it justice. For my part, I love it, live it and feel it. It is seared in my memory and part of my soul now. I am just glad to have been along for the ride and been afforded the chance to be part of this fandom.

    A deep, deep thank you to George RR Martin, David Benioff and DB Weiss, the extraordinary cast and amazing crew who worked soo tirelessly in front and behind the camera to bring it all to life for us all.

    The end, now that it is upon us, was sad, bittersweet, funny, depressing, uncertain, unresolved, hopeful, loving, exhilarating, hurtful and all the things that make life what is. A never ending story which continues long after our songs have been sung. It ended as is should have and needed to.

    I am sorry to see that some of the division and bitterness which has split soo much of the world has seeped even amongst us here. The ” A Song Of Ice And Fire” novels and the show “Game Of Thrones” can be a case study, a primer and a guide as to what happens to such a world and how hard we have to fight to keep it all together.

    I wish everybody here good fortune in the years to come. And we will definitely continue to hear about many events to come now that, at least one other series (and probably more), set in our beloved Ice and Fire universe is slowly inching it’s way to our screens in the near future. May it be all we want and hope it to be, a worthy addition to an already amazing story.

    But at least for now I will say it one more time: OUR WATCH IS ENDED.

  40. Nina:
    So let me get this straight…

    The whole reason to bring Jon back from the death, was for him to reject Daenerys, so she would feel abandoned by everyone, so she would choose fear over love? 🤨

    And are we going yo ignore the fact, that Bran pretty much played everyone, so he would become a king. He gave just enough information, do he could make people make the right moves. He played the game, and other characters were hus pawns.

    And Sansa. Her big mouth was the nail to Daenerys’ the coffin. And she gets a crown as a reward?

    I wonder what was the ‘sweet’ part in this bittersweet ending. To me, it just seems like a season, that’s filled with Stark fan service. 🤷

    It seems that no other house mattered. Only house that mattered, was the Disney-family of GOT: the Starks.

    I think the idea of bringing Jon back from the dead was to bring the North together to fight the Night King. And then persuade Dany to fight too.

    Bran knows how to manipulate people to get him to do what he wants, and they don’t even realise it. Not a bad quality for a ruler to have.

    I think you’re giving Sansa’s “big mouth” too much credit. It was a confluence of incidents accumulating with the death of Missandei and Jon’s “rejection.” The Northmen respect Sansa because she has never deviated from their best interests and desire for independence. So from that persective, Sansa has earned her title.

    The sweet part is that the wheel is broken. The North gets its independence. The tryants are defeated. Arya gets her life of adventure. Sansa is queen. Jon gets to retire to the North (where he wants to be) without kingship forced on him. Tyrion gets to be Hand. Brienne gets to be Kings Guard. Podrick is a knight. Bronn gets his castle. The Night King is defeated. Sam is lord of Horn Hill and he and Gilly are to have a baby. Yara is queen of the Iron Islands. Jaime has his deeds recorded alongside other knights of renown. The wars are over.

  41. Sacred Lime,

    Beautifully expressed. I agree with everything you wrote in this post. I am so happy Jon is up in the real North with the Free Folk, Tormund, and Ghost.

  42. What’s the moral of the story again? Down with an absolutist ruler and long live our democratically elected king (but we still have a queen in the North who inherits her title)?! Really? That’s the best they could come up with? I expected more. And power to the people, long live Ser Bronn, Master of Coin, he should know best how to spend the money! What’s the message again? Oh, they killed the witch and lived happily ever after! Seriously? After 8 years this is all we get?

    I also loved Tyrion throughout the series, but it just seems annoying that he always mannages to talk his way out of trouble. Although, I admit, this scene was probably the best of the whole season. But despite Tyrion’s internal struggle and love for his family, Tyrion did try to set free the former tyrant Cersei, and should have been properly punished! Being a Hand again doesn’t work for me.

    And Jon, it seems easy how Tyrion talked him into killing Daenerys. It goes contrary to all his moral norms plus, he seems kind of stupid, only listening to what others say (Maester Aemon: Love is the death of duty; Tyrion: but no Jon, duty is the death of love). Lame, lame, lame. I do respect, though, the fact that Drogon chose to burn the Iron Throne rather than Jon, that seemed right! But the scene between Jon and Dany, that had to be done better!!! Altghough using similar wording as in the scene between Jon and Tyrion was good for the storytelling.

    Speaking of the throne, they still haven’t explained (not that it convinces me) why Dany burnt the whole city instead of just going for the Red Keep. It is contrary to everything Dany believed, even if she sees herself as a Messiah, which is true, but with some fire to have her way, this is exactly what such a character would not do. The war had been won, it is just stupid what she did, or what they made her do. But, hey, I guess it was necessary for the storytelling. Who cares whether previous actions of a character support this kind of a development. The folks need to conclude what the authors chose for them to conclude.

    I really loved Arya and Jon’s farewell, that made me cry. And Arya now goes to explore and find America 😀

    To conclude, my disappointment for the final outcome is beyond words! But this is probably the best show ever, and I am grateful to have been around to see it at its peak!

  43. rizwan:
    And thus ends what promised to be the greatest TV show of all time, betrayed and raped by the very creators who started it. Good luck for HBO with its spin-offs after what they did here. And long may WoTW reign with the spin-offs. I am done with GoT forever.My watch has ended.

    Yes you posted you were done with GoT on the live cast thread… Gonna do it again on the show only recap? Please dont. Twice is enough. You hated it, we get it.

  44. Anna Marie Slagle:
    To the writers of the last season of Game of Thrones and especially the last two episodes…”Dracarys!” The ending was almost criminal! It was a devastatingly, complete separation from the last seven years of story line development, plot progression, historical foundations, the understanding of bloodlines, heirs and rightful heirs. It was a horrendous, anticlimactic, culmination of several out of character portrayals.”When a character acts out of character, what this really means is that the writer has failed to sustain the causal believability of his character’s actions.” They shouldn’t have shifted Dany’s character into the mad queen after building her up from the ashes to become the mother of dragons, a promised ruler who would free the slaves and fight for the innocent. As we know, all of these years, the story has built up to Jon’s revelation that he is the rightful heir. Bran’s big reveal to Jon’s sister’s, stating that Jon was the rightful heir was slashed to pieces with Bran, all of a sudden being crowned king in the last episode as if it was always meant to be, when the story line and plot of the last seven years never built up to that at all! A possible, more consistent ending with Dany and Jon maintaining their characters, completing the 7 year’s long established “believable” story line and plot, would have been in the next to the last episode, that Dany would save King’s landing after the surrender, head to the Red Keep with Jon, Davos and Grey Worm at her side and pursue Cersei and Jaime who were trying to escape down into the cellars of the Red Keep where the dragon’s skulls were. They overtake them, and Jaime attempts to protect Cersei by drawing his sword and ends up fighting with Jon. There is a moment when the fighting comes close to Dany; Jon stumbles backwards on a scull or rock, losing his sword.Just as Jaime is about to stab Jon, Dany impulsively steps in, and Jaime stabs Dany, instead. Grey Worm, in turn, stabs Jaime. He dies quickly, while Jon is holding Dany in his arms, all choked up. Davos restrains Cersei as she cries out for Jaime. As Dany is dying, she tells Jon that he is the rightful heir, she knows that he will make a great king. She tells him that she will always love him and dies in his arms. She is brought up, being carried by Jon and gently laid in full view of her army and the people. Her dragon sweeps down and expresses his grief by scorching some of the area, bellowing out his anguish in a dramatic display. After this, the dragon, comes close to Jon’s face and bows in acknowledgement that he swears his allegiance to him and takes a couple of powerful steps behind Jon, as if to say, “I am behind you, now, as you are the rightful heir.” Last episode, Jon is crowned king, sits on the Iron throne and finally gives Cersei the dramatic, long awaited sentence that she deserves and that the fans have all been waiting for: to see her come to a bitter end. Samwell becomes the maester, standing by Jon’s side as he sits on the throne with his sisters close, the North men, the whole lot of them are there for the coronation. At least something along this line and then fill in the blanks of all the other sub plots and this would have been a much more believable finale than the ridiculous enormous, agonizing let down we all endured.

    I didn’t “endure” anything and don’t feel “let down” at all. Sorry you’re having a tough time. I’m sure everything we saw was based on what GRRM shared with Dan and Dave, so this is a version of his intended ending.

  45. I got the impression Jon wasn’t really keen on going north again? He looked sad upon the news.

    or maybe I misunderstood it

  46. Thank you so much, Watchers on the Wall. Thank you for all the efforts. You made my GoT experience even more memorable.
    Truly grateful.

  47. One thing I didn’t understand: I thought Jon was “sentenced” to the NW af the Wall, and yet, at the end he seems to be riding off to Wildlingville with Tormund, Ghost and a bunch of wildling kids.

    PS Now we know why Sansa’s storyboard gift was of her last scene. QitN!

  48. Last week I said to a co-worker: ” You know what? What ending I’d like after THIS? Drogon melts the throne, everybody’s going home…” (no kidding, I have no proof, you’ve simply got to believe me)

    Well, seems I got what I wanted…

    Never expected the end of the “best TV show there was and ever will be” would be so damn trivial/petty/insignificant/piddling …

    “F*** it, Dude – let’s go bowling…”

  49. Sean C.,

    Exactly. The leftover of of the Seven Kingdoms is back at square 1 with an absent king and allegedly competent hand, althouh how Tyrion can be deemed to be competent anfter all his mistakes and conflicts of interests is beyond my understanding… Moreover, the current leadership is soft. Say whatever you want about old fat Bobby, but he knew war and could deal with enemies effectively; that inspired a certain degree of fear and kept the lords from rebelling or simply playing gaimes on their own. Bran is just a cripple in a wheel-chair and Tyrion is just a sentimental imp. At best, we can expect that Bran will manage to keep the dark side of the human nature at bay by using the powers of the 3-Eyed Raven; in other words, it’s replacing the IT/ dragon/Leviathan with the all-seeing eye of the Big Brother (I wouldn’t want to live in Westeros, if so). But Bran has never used his powers to prevent people from doing something bad, so most brobaly he will be seen only as a cripple in a wheel-chair. What can possibly go wrong with such a week “leader” with a “deamon-monkey” hand?

    The whole idea on and elected king… I wonder does anyone study history in the US? My country (the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) had elected monarchy: ended up as a shithole of Europe, torn apart by neighbour empires. So did the Kingdon of Hungary. The Holy Roman Emipre which also had elected emperors and fell apart. So, what can possibly go wrong with elected monarchy? We’ve seen how Kingsmoot went: Yara rejected results of the election and went to seek support of the external players selling independence of the Iron Islands for the support agains her rival. And it doesn’t matter that Yara was “good” and that Euron was “bad”, although even that becomes questionable after what Dany did to KL. Edmure can easily take her path now (BTW what was the point of turning him into a lame comic relief, after he played such a beautifully tragic charracter in 608?).

    Night’s Watch. Another nonsense. Someone, please, open the god-damned Wikipedia and read about the history of the monastic orders! If they pan to keep the NW a glorified jail for all kings or rapists and robbers and all other kinds of broken men, if they plan to keep them locked in a cold castle with nothing to do, not even sex, it won’t end well: it can’t.

    So, I dare to make an educated prediction that in a year from now everyone in Westeros will be at each other’s throat; the Stormlands will rise against incompetent Gendry; the Iron Ilands – against Yara; Bran and Tyrion will become the most hated rulers ever and end up dead; a new ruler of the South will try to re-conquer the North, etc. Jon will have to pull full Albert Hohenzollern, dissolve the Night’s Watch, take a wife, father some children and eventually re-conquer the Seven Kingdoms to re-establich some order… Even if the current genration will somehow manage to keep things together, the next will definitely do something like that. And there’s no continuity in the current situation – no marriages, no children, no new functional relationships built on the experience of fighting and winning against the common enemy (except of Jon and Tormund); even Gilly ends up as Sam’s mistress as far as I understand. So, it’s nowhere near bittersweet; it’s a recipee of disaster worse that the Night King or Dany’s snap. And it’s simply stupid.

    OK. End of rant.

  50. Ten Bears,

    That was a way to keep Grey Worm satisfied. Don’t think Sansa or Bran care much for that. And Grey Worm in Naath won’t notice.

  51. After reading the leaks I wasn’t expecting to enjoy this episode so I was surprised at how much a I liked it. A lot of it was quite beautiful and emotional, of course Ramin’s music helps. There was plenty to criticize about this season but it went out on a high note imo.

    The finale season has gotten a lot of hate. Some of the criticism has been justified but much of the hatred seemed way over the top and merely a trendy thing to do that many people joined in on. I believe time will be much kinder to it. Future viewers will experience this show exclusively through binge watching without participating in a hypercritical fandom where hostility to the writers is the norm, that will help.

    I don’t think will ever see a show I love as much as this one again.

  52. Ten Bears,

    Ten Bears:
    One thing I didn’t understand: I thought Jon was “sentenced” to the NW af the Wall, and yet, at the end he seems to be riding off to Wildlingville with Tormund, Ghost and a bunch of wildling kids.

    PS Now we know why Sansa’s storyboard gift was of her last scene. QitN!

    I think it’s because the Night’s Watch no longer exists. It was a sentence meant to appease the Unsullied. They think he’s stuck at the wall – no wife, no property, no children. But to those who knew, it was giving Jon his freedom to live as he wanted.

  53. A non epic ending to an epic-like story: no wonder many people will find it underwhelming. Details aside, I loved it because of that, not in spite of it.
    Bran : yes, wtf . And then, because my family came from Aragon, the scene reminded me (in a loose way) of the “Concordia de Alcaniz” and “Compromiso de Caspe”, where Fernando I was chosen as King of Aragon. Not a first-hand favorite. Not a Savior (beware of Saviors). But, on balance, a rather decent king for the times. Though it didn’t ensure the world living happily ever after.
    What will stay with me is Jon’s ending. Heading to the future, doubting he has been right, yet surrounded by what remains of the people he tried to save and brought back in people’s minds where they belong, the Realms of Mankind. Grass may be sprouting through the snow, but our watch will never end. Even without a wall, Watchers on the Wall are needed forever. Knowing nothing, but trying their best. Not Machiavelli. Camus.

  54. Nina,

    Jon sealed Dany’s fate when he chose to tell his siblings. Bran reminded him in the Winterfell Godswood that it was his choice to tell his birth story. So it was really Jon that triggered Dany’s darkest side, and then he had to kill her

  55. The very first chapter and scene of Game of Thrones (excluding prologue) is the one in which Ned Stark takes Bran to watch an execution and teaches him that the person who passes the sentence is the one who should wield the sword.

    Very interesting that the same little boy should one day end up the king of six kingdoms and still be completely out of the left field twist!

  56. Sean C.:
    The narrative mechanics of Bran becoming King of the South even though the North seceded are…questionable. If that is the book ending, GRRM has some work to do to make it plausible; the show certainly didn’t.

    It has happened IRL though. In 1822, Brazil had been elevated from colony to joint Kingdom with Portugal. The royal family lived there for years escaping Napoleon. But the Brazilians were always wary of becoming a colony again. Then the heir to the Portuguese crown declared Brazil independent, before someone else would do it. When his father died and this became an issue, he left his daughter as queen of Portugal and his son as king of Brazil. So Brazil had two emperors from the country they had just seceded from.

  57. It looked to me as if Pod was a Kingsguard – his armour appeared to match Brienne’s. Also it would seem Brienne is now Lady Commander of the Kingsguard if she’s writing in the White Book and attending Small Council meetings.

    Happy with this episode overall – it could never have been as massive as earlier episodes in this season but it felt like it hit all the right notes to me.

    Kudos to WotW for being somewhere to come and avoid the negativity that’s dogged GoT of late.

  58. Thank you, Sue, for your all you recaps, I can’t believe this is the last one for GOT. I’m looking forward for your future ones, when the prequel(s) start(s). I’m glad that you and the other writers have decided to keep on guarding the wall.
    I’m unexpectedly serene with this ending, although the shipper in me can’t miss there were no weddings, no happy couples. But Jon seemed happy with his wildlings, I shed happy tears for his reunion with Ghost. It’s the ending I hoped for Jon. And he also has a good friend, Tormund.
    I burst into tears when Brienne was filling Jaime’s pages with his knightly deeds. What a good last sentence: he didn’t die in the arms of the woman he loved, he protected his queen. Brienne has a suitable job and good allies, maybe even friends in the council. Not bad. I didn’t expect the above mentioned allies to stay alive, I mostly feared Tyrion might be executed. But he’s alive, among friends and Davos and Pod as well. I’m wondering what Bronn’s wife looks like. Did she come with the castle? There were a lot of Tyrell young women.
    Arya looked glorious on the ship, her new hairstyle suited her. Well done, explorer girl! But will she be happy without any loved ones?
    And, finally (but first, if I use chronological order) I wept for Drogon’s grief, who reminded us that dragons know who their friends are. If an angry and heartbroken dragon can spare the life of a friend/ family member even under these circumstances, I have been right to love them.

  59. The Iron Throne is no more. Like, literally. Did you see that one coming?

    Yes! Been calling that since A Feast for Crows. I absolutely loved the finale and all my theories actually came true, but the foreshadowing and groundwork was there in ASOIAF.

    In the cellars of the devastated Red Keep, Tyrion finds the remains of Jaime and Cersei buried under stone and embracing even in death. He weeps for them.

    I loved this opening sequence. It was so heartbreaking and there was no music until Tyrion came face to face with the death of his siblings. So beautifully acted by Tyrion especially when he spotted the golden hand first.

    Also, definitely got major Revenge of the Sith/Anakin Skywalker vibes – loved it! Emilia played Dark!Dany so well. And I loved that shot of the dragon wings behind her.

    Tyrion lays out his own sins, before eventually getting around to discussing Dany’s- her habits of annihilating anyone in her path.

    I feel like this dialogue really should have come earlier in the season (or even last season) in order to lay out and re-frame Dany’s past actions as villainous despite those actions being done to “evil” people/slavers.

    I loved the Drogon-Dany scene and how he tried to nudge her awake!! Uggghhh just thinking about it I get emotional. And I agree Sue, I really wish the show brought out more of the Dragon’s intelligence and personality more throughout the show, but alas, perhaps they were constrained by budgets. I am happy Drogon survived and he’s out there flying around – probably back in Valyria.

    [. . .] then everyone laughing at the notion of democracy, and Tyrion taking on a new role: kingmaker.

    I do love that the Great Council will be enacted every time to elect a new monarch, I think it does lay the groundwork for what Samwell posed but way down the timeline. The finale had all that I wanted and more BUT one thing I wasn’t too big a fan of was Bronn making it to the end of this whole thing! Oh well. I’ll take it.

    Lastly, I love the parallels between Aemon and Jon- both were true born heirs to the Iron Throne, but one abdicated and the other was forced out but both ended up at the Night’s Watch. Thus endeth the Targaryen line.

  60. worst episode of the series, a stark family benefit. Drogon should have given Jon a good roasting(and Tyrion),but the worst part was Dany wandering around the throne room with on guards, when the character creation of Dany would know she was in danger, and any visitor would be searched and disarmed. The final straw, crowning boring dribblydick .

  61. Meg,

    Assuming Jon would figure this out himself, at some point? And Grey Worm would believe it, now that the WW are defeated? And neither Arya nor Sansa told Jon afterwards that it’s just a ruse? Because they didn’t know/don’t care? Not even Davos had a word with the man he believed in, and who saved the 7K?

    I prefer the idea that Jon said “goodbye Westeros” after having served them well, and chose to be a free man in the real North.

    Inga,

    Yes, I also hope that GRRM has a more believable path to his conclusion. There is no reason for the 6K to follow Bran, except that’s he’s neutral to the 6K. He doesn’t have any alliances. As soon as the war fatigue is washed off and the lands of the high lords recover, they will declare themselves independent like the North did. And then they start to fight each other again like they did before Aegon the Conqueror. Does that make for a spin-off?

    I can see Sansa as Queen (North or even Westeros — marrying a Martell could help) and Tyrion perhaps as Hand, if Daenerys doesn’t burn him for his betrayal first. Bran gets stuck in a tree and maybe Arya even dies. Jon could decide to become a free man, if he doesn’t want to be king. I’m really curious if GRRM has exactly the same ending in mind.

  62. Julia,

    The analogy would be that a Targaryen rules the North, after the North becomes independent from the 6K. A Stark ruling the 6K would be like a Brazilian ruling Portugal after Brazil becomes independent.

  63. D&D missed a lot of open goals throughout the series, including Jaime’s first suicide run but the finale may be more guilty than ever. Tyrion could’ve given a truely crushing speech on those steps with new names for Dany (breaker of oaths and burner of children) instead he said almost nothing. The same could be said of Jon and Tyrion saying almost nothing to Grey Worm who had made the Unsullied as bad as they were under the Slavers yoke. Sandor Clegane was chosen for visions by the lord of light and sat chatting to TRW, he should’ve woken in the ashes with new purpose. I could go on and on.

    And that is from somebody who didn’t mind the final positions of the players, though Dany should’ve gotten the afterlife vision as she bled out.

  64. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I just want to thank everyone who was associated with this site, and previously WIC.It was a fun and amazing experience to be a part of this fandom. The journey was all that mattered. And I wouldn’t change a thing.

    – Always Support The Bottom!

    Well said! I rarely post anything but I have enjoyed reading. I’ll remember fondly all the legends here like Furious, Sean, KG, Wimsey, Fixit, Rygar with his penises, Pimpslap and many many more. Thanks! 🙂

  65. Stray observations:
    It was good to see Yara and Edmure Tully put in a short appearance.
    I still would of had Yara return in 5 to help … and then also dispose of Euron.
    Robin Arryn, we have not seen him in so long his physical appearance so different.
    Yohn Royce has been in 4 episodes of season 8 but never at the battles?!
    (Wish they had of identified the out-of-left-field house lords in the parley.)
    Ending Montage:
    Was hoping Meera Reed would be in that last scene with Sansa even if she didn’t say anything , an engaging character who just disappears.
    On Jon’s journey north a brief stop at that tavern wordless encounter with Hot Pie.
    Gendry and Arya were in the vicinity of one another , thought we would see some parting in the montage.

    Bronn seemed grafted on , at least he made an appearance.
    They remembered Pod but where was Gilly?
    (Did I miss Jon and Sam’s parting?)

    With some imagination something in Essos could have been in the montage too, I guess Daario Naharis finds out what happened?
    I thought for sure Jaqen H’ghar and Arya where gonna cross paths in KL for no good reason.
    I wonder if Mark Gatiss found out why he was first told and then untold he would be in season 8?

    Two shortened seasons caused some unintended consequences.

    The fixed the Jon – Ghost deal, but I am left unsatisfied with Arya and Nymeria’s single encounter in season 7.

  66. Rearing back, Drogon revs up his flamers, and Jon stands still, accepting his fate.
    But the fire isn’t for him. Drogon turns it toward the throne. Blast after blast hits the Iron Throne until it’s no more. After all this fuss- the chair is melted away. Good.

    This is going to be the last recap of an episode you do, isn’t it? I’m choked up, but want to say one more time – great recap Sue. Thank you. For everything you’ve done for this site and these fans. You know I’ve said it before, I mean it.

    I was certain Drogon was going to roast Jon, too. Yet they built up Drogon’s ultimate reaction. It was shown that he has an instinct regarding Dany when he rescued her from the Harpys in Meereen. He has seen her being happy, comfortable and safe with Jon numerous times before, and saw that Rhaegal trusted Jon as well. The scene of Jon and Dany flying together was more than a romantic scene – Drogon watched as Dany and Jon kissed. Dany was obviously happy and trusting of Jon – and it was distinctly shown that Drogon noticed this when he gave Jon the “I’ve got my eye on you” look.

    It was shown that he could recognize human sadness, as well, when he came to comfort Dany with his wing around her as she mourned Jorah. So, he’s down in the snow at Kings Landing somewhere, and didn’t see exactly what happened between Jon and Dany. Yet, he senses something is dreadfully wrong with Mom, flies up and sees Jon crying over Dany. Human sadness. By Drogon’s calculations, Jon didn’t hurt Dany, because Jon is sad about Dany. But something must have hurt her, what was it. Why, it has to be that horrible spikey hard ugly thing over there that hurt her. (He wasn’t wrong.) It has to go, and so … it’s gone, but not soon enough.

    Thanks for letting me spew.

    Sue, may your kingdom, pardon, QUEENdom be ever filled with the kind of happiness and intelligence, patience, judgment and perseverance that you’ve shown over the years in giving us this site.

  67. Dany will come back for revenge as the Night Queen. Mark it!

    But seriously I hope D&D pay the Lord of the Rings guys royalties for stealing their endings. Too Disney-like for me. Would have been better if Bran stood up and walk in the end evoking Keyser Soze.

  68. “Arya sails with direwolf sails on her ship- her family goes with her wherever she goes. She will always be Arya of House Stark, she will never be No One.”

    Beautifully put, Sue. Thank you, as always, for all of your enthusiasm and hard work.

  69. My real criticism is that this season seemed so rushed. I know in the past seasons there was talk of time machines, but it was even more noticeable this season, with just 6 episodes, OK, they were longer episodes, but not long enough to really flesh it out. I think that if we had 10 episodes as in previous seasons, we could have made more sense of the whole thing. If anything, we should have had 10 long episodes. I hope that the last two books are published soon, as in those we get the thought processes, which clarifies the reasons for any actions that the characters make.

    As the last book is “A Dream of Spring”, the partial democracy seems believable as a beginning to true democracy, perhaps “Spring”?

    Maybe it is too soon to fully appreciate the complexities of what the ending truly is, but some things make total sense. Arya’s arc does, I can’t remember if it was in the books or on the show, but she said she wanted to find out what was East of Westeros. Let’s hope she does. At last she is on her way there, perhaps it will be Essos, or some other land/lands: Jon going back to the wall and ranging in the true North, he wanted to be a Ranger: Sansa as Lady Stark, with all the fine things, dresses, crown. Bran, now that is a conundrum. Although it has been considered to be a possibility, I cannot make total sense of it, without seeing any clue of his thoughts.

    The story started off at the Wall. After that, the Starks became the main focus. So, we come full circle and the story ends with the Starks, in charge of their own destinies. Yes, life goes on, the Small Council still debates and squabbles over what to spend the money on.

    I desperately want and need the next two books, so that I have full understanding of what GRRM intends us to know. I have to admit that although I saw the first episode when it first aired, I didn’t think that Game of Thrones was for me, and I had never heard that it was based on the books, until after I finally got into the show (Thanks to my daughter’s enthusiasm for GOT) and noticed that the show was based on the books. I am so glad that I decided to read the books, especially as the show and the books have deviated at times along the way. When the books arrive, hopefully, however they deviate or merge with GOT, whether or not the ending is exactly the same, I will then understand why things have happened as they have, both in the books and in the show.

    Thanks to this site and others that have been there from the beginning to the end, that have clarified and argued out what has appeared on our televisions. How we will miss all this.

  70. Upon rewatch, I have upgraded my rating from 6 to 7/10 based on Jon and Arya’s farewell scene alone. Maisie Williams and her damn expressive face, and the bond those 2 have (the mention of Needle again), just obliterate me.

  71. Have seen several comments about the Dothraki staying in Westeros… no… they were boarding ships at the end , same as the Unsullied.

  72. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    George trolled D&D and HBO, right? Fucking Bran? Really? Good luck getting to that ending in 2 books.

    The episode and series ended when Jon killed Dany and protected the realm. He settles down with Val North of the Wall in my head canon.

    But seriously, Bran? The emotionless cyborg?

    Well, you know, when he said to Tyrion “Why do you think I came down South for?” when asked if he would accept the kingship, he actually smiled (slightly). He also smiled (slightly) when he was being wheeled out of the Small Council meeting at the end.

  73. The only enjoyable scene to me was Brienne writing Jamies part in the book.
    All the rest was a farcial, pidling, trivial story. They started to dig the grave for the series in season 7 and buried it in season 8. I am no longer proud to have or wear any Got merchandise. Got is not only finished but dead. I still can’t believe they did that. I am even not willing to complain about all the dumb things they again did in episode 8.

  74. Very oddly satisfying. I think the season’s been absurdly rushed and for this episode, we ended up with a whole heap of stinky situations to untangle, but for what the conditions were, the episode played out beautifully, as good as it could be with how we got here. This cast never fails to give their all and I hope that Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington are duly recognised for their incredible work, particularly Kit.

    I’m glad they paced the trek through Kings Landing as they did, Tyrion and Jon etc taking in the destruction slowly, methodically, devastatingly. Not surprised at all that Dany met her end in such a way. I was waiting for her to say something in the common tongue as she addressed her forces, but she wasn’t speaking to the people of Westeros. She was there to build a better life for those who follow her, and had no love or respect anyone else. As Jon and Arya walked towards her, I could only think oh, winter was coming for her.

    It was heartbreaking nonetheless. When Dany and Jon embraced, I wanted them to be together. And Jon, when he stood there, ready to accept whatever followed from Drogon, my heart just hurt. Drogon destroying the Iron Throne was quite poetic indeed as it wasn’t Jon that truly killed her, but her drive for power and mislaid sense of justice, brought on by the entitlement that the Iron Throne inspired. She oddly mirrors Stannis in this.

    For all of their missteps this season, D&D delivered some solid writing here: “I know a killer when I see one.” “You think our House words are stamped on our bodies when we’re born and that’s who we are?” “Love is the death of duty”…”you just came up with that?”

    And the Small Council scene at the end! “Would you say the Crown’s debt to you has been paid?” “In full, my Lord Hand!” “Good! Time to start incurring a new one.” Delightful. I’d readily watch full episodes of their future meetings.

    Brienne and Podrick as Kingsguard! Brienne completing Jaime’s story was touching. Now, Bran, to update that entry on Arthur Dayne…

    “I wish there’d been another way.”
    “The North is free thanks to you.” Good old Jon, always, always thinking big picture and putting everyone else before him. Not only do I think “I wish there’d been another way” refers to Jon’s exile in the NW, but to how they got to a basic semblance of peace. Had they supported Jon as the rightful King, which they could very well have argued for, they would have thrown Westeros back into war, which Jon would never accept. He’s the Shield that guards the Realms of Men, and he proved himself the true King of them all with his actions. I’m so glad he may get some some peace now, leading the Freefolk to a better life. I highly doubt the Queen in the North is going to raise so much as an eyebrow if someone reports Jon isn’t at Castle Black.

    The music for the final montage was so exquisite. Now I only hope they add the background music from their look at Jon and Arya’s reunion to the soundtrack:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSnl8Pf_mMg&feature=youtu.be

    My head canon is that this music plays as Jon ascends the throne ❤️ I’m content with how they wrapped things up, but this’ll always be the true ending for me.

  75. JamesL,
    I don’t think will ever see a show I love as much as this one again

    Me neither. It’s probably a once in a lifetime thing and no small part due to the online fandom passion and discussions keeping the hype train going, together. This had everything I love. Melodrama, mystery, fantasy, elaborate and medieval costume, epic music and scenery, interesting characters some of which kept you guessing and last but not least the casting was genius.

  76. Inga,

    I was wondering how big of an impact had Martin with this ending. For me it seems that it was written with, what it seems, such a strong american point of view that is hard to watch. Martin based his story on a real events that had happened in UK and in Europe. Every place in his world is based on a real place in our world. And it is no suprise that he is familiar with Europe’s history. So it is really hard to believe that he would end up with elected monarcy…We all know how it ended or europeans countries back in the days… I have the same problem with North independence. We have Catalonia and Ireland only to put the most famous. Argumenting that for hundreds of years they were independent isn’t strong enought remembering all of the economics outcomes of being on their own. Also for houndred of years they were part of a realm so…. I don’t say is it is good or bad, or if North should be independent but seems weird to me that Martin would make it so one dimensional.
    (happend to be from Poland too :))

  77. Bran is no more a human, he is a collective consciousness passed over thousands and thousands of years by the Children of the Forrest, whose existence was destroyed by the First Men. Against all my expectations, they managed to come full circle with this story despite all the turbulence and the character development problems and the plot structure problems. I know they left many many things hanging, but in the end, it was supposed to be a Story. And it was. They went with a very very tolkienesque ending, only they left an ounce of magic in the world. I will write a detailed comment later, I still need to grasp what happened. And, they made us sympathise for a cgi creature that mourns his mother’s death., this was good narrative build up for that specific scene! Guys, it was always supposed to be about the story, you remembered this so late! I will give the pilots an applause for a good landing, despite turbulence from past episodes. And hail to the amazing cast and crew. And to this terrific fandom. Congratulations you all!

  78. Well my money on Brienne being SUPER fertile and with a Tarth/Lannister (Tannister??) baby on way to raise as an awesome single mum, didn’t pay off .

  79. Compartmentally I loved the series but as a whole, especially the last two seasons I don’t think it stands up to much scrutiny rounding off the story.

    Don’t get me wrong the acting, music, production etc has been brilliant but got to me was amazing because we cared about the characters and their stories and on that note it feels like the show fell short of the finish line.

    Nitpicking about the episode, the unsullied reacting that calmly to their queens murder?
    Dothraki? She made them her blood riders and they don’t seem to care..

    If the north is free why would dorne who have hardly ever been in the 7 kingdoms anyway stay in and the iron islands as well 4 kingdoms possibly at best.

    MVP of series for me, Peter Vaughan rip as maester aemon, epic character mesmerising in every scene he was in. We will never see his like again.

    Can’t wait for the books ( my bet is not before 2030 but will see)

    Thanks to everyone one here for the work you have put in, it’s definitely been emotional.

  80. Lady MarMar,

    Lol. I would be happy if a family of foxes were making their den in the far corners of our backyard again 🙂 The little pups were the cutest (I’m not even mad about the areas of broken fencing.)

  81. I love love love love loved it! The ending reminded me a lot of LOTR. Like Frodo, Jon and Dany saved the world, but sometimes the ones who give the most, pay the greatest price. At the heart of GOT was the story of their journey towards one another, which was the only way the Night King would be defeated. The last couple of episodes have just been the natural fall-out, of their different personalities and the conflict of their inheritance, once that outcome had been achieved.

    It was beautiful and moving and sad. Jon’s grief at killing the woman he loved. Drogon carrying his mother’s body away. GW setting sail for Naarth. The members of the Small Council. Sansa being crowned. Arya turning her back on life as an assassin for something more positive. Jon heading north with the wildlings. All of it.

    Kudos to everyone involved in the production and thanks to everyone on this site for making this journey so wonderful x

  82. Did anyone else expect the “Prince of Dorne” and Yara to do a double take after Sansa’s declaration of independence, something like “Oh shit, I did not know that was an option …”

    Especially in the case of Dorne you would have expected them to heavily argue for their own independence as well (Remember: Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken), but as with most things Dorne in the show they left that one rather unsatisfying.

  83. Making the 8,

    Making the 8,

    Thomas Covenant starts very strongly with great ideas and story lines but gets rather lost by the time the third series comes into play. Nothing a good TV rewrite wouldn’t fix though, Enjoy:)

  84. Frank:
    The only enjoyable scene to me was Brienne writing Jamies part in the book.
    All the rest was a farcial, pidling, trivial story. They started to dig the grave for the series in season 7 and buried it in season 8. I am no longer proud to have or wear any Got merchandise. Got is not only finished but dead. I still can’t believe they did that. I am even not willing to complain about all the dumb things they again did in episode 8.

    Even that only made marginal sense. Almost every single thing she wrote down as Jaime’s great deeds occurred after he was dismissed from the Kingsguard (Tommen removed him in Season 6 Episode 6). Meaning they have no business being in the Book of Brothers.

    Furthermore, she writes that he lifted the siege of Riverrun without loss of life, which is a lie, as Blackfish died.

  85. fdr,

    fdr:
    Meg,

    Assuming Jon would figure this out himself, at some point? And Grey Worm would believe it, now that the WW are defeated? And neither Arya nor Sansa told Jon afterwards that it’s just a ruse? Because they didn’t know/don’t care? Not even Davos had a word with the man he believed in, and who saved the 7K?

    I prefer the idea that Jon said “goodbye Westeros” after having served them well, and chose to be a free man in the real North.

    I don’t think Jon would have any trouble figuring it out. He wouldn’t need to be told. And maybe he was. The Nights Watch is finished with. The threat is gone. When Jon arrived only Tormand and Ghost was there. It was as if they were waiting for him because Tormand had no reason to be there.

    What would Grey Worm know about the Nights Watch? Or what their purpose is? He could be told anything. What would be important to him is that it’s a place of punishment – where criminals could choose to serve for life in lieu of execution.

    Your preferred ending isn’t incompatible with Jon not really having to serve in the (defunct) Night’s Watch. Upon reaching the Wall, where the Night’s Watch existed no more, he then chose to be a free man in the true North after saying goodbye to Westeros which he had served well.

  86. Another standout scene: the meeting of Lords and Ladies of Westeros. Finally, Arya meets Yara, though they probably aren’t going to be having tea with each other anytime soon! I’m glad Davos acknowledged the good that the Unsullied and Dothraki have done, the sacrifice they’d made – even though it was for Dany, they also bled to save the Realm. Only real critique is that given Varys must have sent off some of those scrolls, I’m surprised no one acknowledged the elephant in the room here.

    And I loved the scene between Tyrion and Jon as Tyrion tells Jon his fate. Tyrion’s hand on Jon’s shoulder, trying to give some measure of comfort as they mourn the woman they both loved – beautifully done.

    The last pale light in the west:

    Compartmentally I loved the series but as a whole, especially the last two seasons I don’t think it stands up to much scrutiny rounding off the story.

    Don’t get me wrong the acting, music, production etc has been brilliant but got to me was amazing because we cared about the characters and their stories and on that note it feels like the show fell short of the finish line.

    Quite.

  87. I’m happy, not ecstatically so but thought it was a decent finale and episode. Can’t see the books ending radically differently now although the route will be otherwise in many ways and no doubt about 100 pages by itself…

    I wasn’t too far wrong about Jon going back north and re-uniting with the Freefolk and Ghost…

  88. so there was no snow or anything during the battle of King’s Landing, but suddenly there is enough snow to cover a fully grown dragon? Did the Westros weather channel miss this sudden blizzard?

    And how were Cersei and Jamie’s bodies not crushed by all of those bricks that fell on them?

  89. Now that I’ve calmed down and really thought about it, this is exactly how the show should end. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Power makes people do despicable things. Dany started off with good intentions, but ended up becoming her father. Jon did the right thing ending her life. I would’ve loved to see Jon on the throne but it seems like it wasn’t his to begin with. The power Dany wielded began to blind and consume her. Her true vision for the future she wanted was seriously blurred. In the end I think it was for the best that all the Stark’s, Jon included, accepted their fates. It’s really not about who sits on the throne, but about doing right by the people. The show ended beautifully in my opinion. Of course I felt that way after I watched it twice, lol!!!

  90. Oh Sue it was so beautiful! I sobbed my way through it. So satisfying to watch. I can’t believe we are done. Thank you for all your work and see you when our watch begins!

  91. I thought the Three-Eyed Raven lived for hundreds of years? So I suppose that new King will never be chosen? So does Westeros now have an eternal dictator? A deeply manipulative ambitious one at that?

    Tyrion who allied with a mass murderer is now Hand? Doesn’t Tyrion have poor judgment? Why would the Westerosi want a guy who was Hand to the Queen that just killed millions of innocents? And among the inner circle, a guy that ratted out on the friend that saved him (ie Varys)? As for encouraging his brother to go into a building that would be target zero for a firebombing – what was the crying about?

    Poor Brienne, the new Meera.

    It will not take long for this series to be superseded? There are series already completed that are far, far better.

    Thank goodness, I did not purchase many of the goods on sale. Last night I gave away the rest of the Oreos. I do not like Oreos – but joined in the “fun”. Or what I thought was a worthwhile undertaking.

  92. George,

    > he actually smiled

    If Bran could see the possible futures, then he steered towards this one by letting Sam tell Jon about his heritage (“now is the time”) thus separating Jon and Daenerys, leading to Daenerys burning KL and Jon killing her. Why did he tell otherwise?

    If he told Jon, knowing this could lead to the burning of King’s Landing, he’s somewhat complicit. And he is now the king? Where the other possible futures for Westeros worse?

  93. I’m satisfied with how thing ended, now I have some crying to do.
    Great ending to the best TV show.
    Thank you to everyone who made ride more joyful.

  94. Since no one knows what happened with Drogon after he flew away with Daenerys’ corpse – since he is a such a smart dragon, it is possible he simply flew directly to the Red Temple in Volantis for Kinvara to resuscitate Daenerys…

  95. Dark Sister,

    I loved this opening sequence. It was so heartbreaking and there was no music until Tyrion came face to face with the death of his siblings. So beautifully acted by Tyrion especially when he spotted the golden hand first.

    In his grief, banging the bricks like his cousin, in my head I was thinking ‘uh, uh’ The gods treat people just like cousin treated those bugs.

  96. Shortclaw,

    o there was no snow or anything during the battle of King’s Landing, but suddenly there is enough snow to cover a fully grown dragon?

    Not snow; ash.

  97. Ten Bears:
    Mango,

    Not too late for the Lord of Light to give Jaime another go-round.

    HahhahaaHahaa!

    I followed you buying those damn Oreos! Thank goodness they were cheap!

  98. Didn’t understand the last shot with Jon. He was sentenced to Nights Watch, so when he was going beyond the wall, was it just another ranging mission? bcoz it didn’t look like that. It seemed like he was taking all those Wildlings with him to settle beyond the wall. (As if like a King beyond the wall) Thats not he was asked to & supposed to do, right?

  99. Arakh75,

    Well I feel like an idiot. I posted several long comments on Saturday defending Dany’s excessive firebombing as understandable rage. But last night made clear she had gone full-on fruit loop. She would’ve “liberated” the whole country just like Melisandre “purified” nonbelievers.

    Oh, though Grey Worm was grief-stricken, he turned into a real villain – executing defenseless POWs.

  100. InJonWeTrust,

    No, but he chose to lead his own life. As a free man among free men.

    Maybe Tyrion and Bran intended that to deceive Grey Worm, but then neither of the Stark sisters was in the ruse.

    And Davos, after Stannis and then Jon, already found another leader (Bran) to follow. Turns out that Sansa and Brienne were right in season 6.

  101. Isabelle: Another standout scene: the meeting of Lords and Ladies of Westeros. Finally, Arya meets Yara, though they probably aren’t going to be having tea with each other anytime soon! I’m glad Davos acknowledged the good that the Unsullied and Dothraki have done, the sacrifice they’d made – even though it was for Dany, they also bled to save the Realm. Only real critique is that given Varys must have sent off some of those scrolls, I’m surprised no one acknowledged the elephant in the room here.

    Even tho we have to fill in the blanks as to how such a meeting got called, who called it? Who had the influence over the Unsullied to call it?
    It was pleasing to see characters I thought I was not going to get to see.
    Now I would have jumped for joy if out-of-left-field Ellaria Sand , whose fate we never see (even if it is implied) had of shown up!

  102. InJonWeTrust,

    I was confused too. Jon was supposed to be “sentenced” to the NW at Castle Black, but at the end he was like a beloved Pied Piper with his ginger sidekick leading a gaggle of Wildling kids to re-establish homesteads beyond the Wall.

    I assumed those wildlings were among those he had saved during his Free Folk Resettlement Program, so they’d naturally adore him.

    I like to think winding up with Ghost, Tormund, and a bunch of friendly young Free Folk wasn’t a bad ending at all for Jon aka Aegon.

    He shoulda stayed in that cave with Ygritte way back when…

  103. A great finale and fitting end to the series. Well done D&D and everyone involved, very satisfying ending. Here’s to the prequel series beginning a new chapter.

  104. Someone more game and code oriented than me needs to develop a Civilization mod that begins as this season of the show ends. Instead of the synoptic or macro view usually taken in the game, invert the scale of time/space to last no longer than 100 years while integrating fully functional character development routines, to include all the players and situations/scenarios that exist or have been initiated at the conclusion of the s.8.
    In advance, you’re welcome.

  105. Grey Worms action is the biggest unexplained anomaly. Apparently Dany was alone in the throne room because Dragon was guarding her? No one else.
    The scenario could have been:
    Slagging the throne would have been quite a commotion , so what if Grey Worm had shown up right then , gone after Jon, but was stopped by Drogon, who had already given Jon a pass because of Targ blood? That would have thrown Grey Worm into confusion to spare Jon until something could have been figured out.

  106. A beautiful ending to the series. Was it perfect? Of course not, but it neatly tied most plot-lines up in a satisfying way. I honestly can’t see how George will be able to finish the series in just two books, so I think this is probably the only ending we will get. D&D, cast, crew, all the writers of this site, all the interesting people who comment, thank you and goodbye.

    And Now My Watch Has Ended.

  107. Grey Worm sees no issue with following orders when these ‘free men’ made terrible choices, as soldiers.

    Ironically, any army that conquered the Unsullied would be equally justified in slitting Grey Worm’s throat for his free choice in following the Mad Queen, helping to mass-murder King’s Landing. Using that logic, all men must die.

    But Tyrion isn’t quite feeling Dany’s speech about liberating the world, because freeing the world by removing choice and bringing people fire and blood doesn’t work out very well.

    Yes! Dany, the Great Liberator. Liberator of life, that is. I can just imagine her cooing, as she slits a baby’s throat, “Don’t you feel liberated now, my love? And now, let me go liberate the whole world, just as I liberated King’s Landing!!!!”

    They don’t exactly need a Night’s Watch anymore so this seems like a half-assed punishment but I can’t blame Bran for it.

    The Night’s Watch was founded at just such a time as this, after the first Long Night ended and all of the Others and wights had died out. They built the Wall for future protection, and the Wall did help stave off destruction until they could amass an army to fight them.

    Yara, Edmure Tully (yassss floppy trout!), Sansa, Arya, Bran, Samwell, Brienne, Gendry, Yohn Royce, Robin Arryn, and others represent the new leadership of Westeros.

    Robin Arryn! I knew I was supposed to recognize more of the crew than I did, but how did I miss that the foppish idiot from the Vale was Robin Arryn?!!!!

    Soon he’s joined by Bronn, Master of Coin and Lord of Highgarden. Davos, Master of Ships.

    I can’t think of many worse choices for Master of Coin. Master of Brothels and Assassins, perhaps. Master of War, maybe. Master of something he has no experience whatsoever with, um, no.

    ******

    I love GoT, both the show and the books, but I am wholeheartedly disappointed with the season and the ending. I’m left feeling what was the point of all the painstaking setup. I get red herrings. I don’t get red avalanches. It’s poor storytelling. The season and every episode lacked a cohesiveness, a logic, a sense of purpose that was almost always present in previous seasons. There were many, many amazing moments this season and even in this episode, yes, but the overarching story failed to pull together for me. Though still better than almost all television out there, I’m sorely disappointed when I compare the ending to the beginning and the long middle.

  108. fdr,

    I kinda wondered how Jon got arrested for assassinating Dany. There was no body – Drogon took care of that I suppose there was that pool of blood on the ground.. if he weren’t so honest he could pull a Ramsay and say “Our Queen… was poisoned by our enemies” or shanked by a Lannister hold-out bent on revenge.

    If Khaleesi had to go, Jon ought to have called in a professional. Someone to pull off the hit quickly and quietly and then dusappear into the shadows. Geez, Arya was in town to kill a queen anyway.

  109. Arya reminds him that Dany will always see Jon as a threat, knowing his secret heritage.

    The writers “forgot” to explain this to Daenerys.

  110. Ten Bears,

    Yes. My condolences to Naath! Imagine, what these 3-4 thousand “defenders” and “liberators” are gonna do there with their understanding of defence and liberation. LOL.

  111. I think Samwell presenting the book A Song of Ice and Fire to Tyrion is also actually a riff to the massive influence that is Tolkien and we saw Frodo closing the book Lord of the Rings at the end of Return of the King. Nice little nod there.

  112. It was perfect. I can’t stop crying. I’m so glad it was perfect. I still can’t stop crying.

  113. Loved it! It’s probably my second favorite finale after The Shield. I’m going to miss this show, but at least I have the prequel to look forward to.

  114. Ginevra,

    “There were many, many amazing moments this season and even in this episode, yes, but the overarching story failed to pull together for me. Though still better than almost all television out there, I’m sorely disappointed when I compare the ending to the beginning and the long middle.”
    —-
    So do like I’m doing. Edit out the filler and stuff you didn’t like (eg for me, High Sparrow, LF, Euron, Ramsay), and splice together your favorite characters’ scenes.

    I figure in a few weeks I’ll have about four hours worth of wall to wall Sandor & Arya scenes (minus the silly Waif broad daylight Braavos gut-stabbing and S7 Arya-LF-Sansa nonsense).

  115. A couple years ago I and others started saying Brienne’s final scene should be writing Jaime’s deeds in the White Book. So that happens, but it was still part of the sequence of scenes that I was distracted by. I was distracted with how much of the Red Keep, surrounding areas like the wharf and the Tower of the Hand were so conveniently and seemingly undamaged. The White Book is kept in the White Tower of the Red Keep, which looked prestine inside for Brienne. It’s a minor thing but I still couldn’t help thinking about it.

    A big question I have is if Sansa would have still made the North independent had they chosen her as Queen of the Seven/Six Kingdoms. She was pushing for independence with a main point that the North will not swear fealty to a southern king/queen. They just selected a ‘Stark’ as king, her brother and someone the North probably would follow yet she still pushes independence, that also btw makes her a queen. I felt like that was a bit forced by D&D in how they did it. So maybe that is George’s ending for her, but I could also see her simply being Wardeness of the North and D&D just wanted to make it/her seem more important than that.

  116. just watched about an hour and a half of #TalkTheThrones
    I always like listening to Mallory and Jason.

    I didn’t see or hear anyone talk about how Bran can do what he does in Kings Landing.
    Doesn’t he need a weirwood tree? I don’t recall there are any weirwood trees in KL…
    I thought he had to touch the tree before he had his real power. I know he can Warg when something is in front of him, but his real power was part of the tree network.

    D&D really did give up on the fantasy elements. I’m left thankful that this was a great show. I’m excited to watch the 2 hour documentary next week. But I’m disappointed that they abandoned the fantasy elements and didn’t develop the rules of that part of the world. I thought Jon could have taken the throne and then decided to give it up and have drogon burn it down… He could have fought with GW and then taken the throne with force. He could have still decided to go up north like Maester Aemon and then have the dragonpit meeting to decide the fate of the realm.

    So, in my own fan fiction world, I would have liked to have seen a few more scenes like I describe, but I am thankful for what they accomplished. Alot comes down to money. They spent everything on building and destroying kings landing, and D&D did the best they could with the story after they passed GRRM. I don’t think they ever considered that they would have to take up the writing and GRRM wouldn’t have his next book out yet, so I will say they did the best they could. I am hopeful that we will get to see what GRRM has in mind one day. I think Jon will still kill Dany, but I’m thinking so much else will be different on how he gets there and what happens next…

  117. I really only have 2 big issues with everything.

    1. The White Walkers were essentially an example of everyone coming together to overcome an enemy who seemed like they couldn’t be defeated. They weren’t mentioned or touched upon in the endgame and considering we started the series with them, that was underwhelming. They were a lesson, “we can do anything if we work together”, seems kindve a waste.

    2. Jon being a secret Targaryen essentially amounted to nothing more than a plot device to create a conflict between he and Dany. Jon would’ve turned on Dany for going Mad Queen, so the conflict between them over his heritage didn’t really change the outcome

    In both instances, there were 8 seasons of build-up to those moments. You can’t have that much buildup without the moments tying into the ending.

  118. Ten Bears: If Khaleesi had to go, Jon ought to have called in a professional. Someone to pull off the hit quickly and quietly and then dusappear into the shadows.

    Jon hadn’t decided to kill her yet. He was there to confront her and everything she said confirmed his worst suspicions.

    The ending was… okay? I’m not exactly thrilled at Bran being king. His contributions are somewhat lacking, his personality absent. It also feels like a cheat, installing someone with supernatural powers. They just defeated Dany and the Night King, the supernaturally powerful, and made the point that actually magic is kinda bad.

    I’m mostly just glad that Drogon survived. I like the thought of there always being dragons hidden somewhere in the world, preferably very far away. He was also the best actor in this episode.

  119. Why did Bran feel the need to appoint a new master of whisperers, when, as a king, he can see everything through visions and warging?

  120. Im laughing at the overwhelming love for this ending on this site. I thought this was where the smart fans are? Anyone that criticizes the ending on here are trashed thoroughly. Incredible. In my terrible awful horrible opinion I’ll be forgetting about everything after The Winds of Winter 6×10.

  121. Ten Bears,

    Yes, it really looks like Jon is becomming King Beyond the Wall. But is it realistic to expect, that a man with such a story who is 25 at best will lead a quite and lonely life? I think not.
    In general, my greatest disappointment was that none of the survivers ended up settled in any meaningful way. Jon, Sansa, Bran, and Tyrion got “dream jobs”, but there’s no sign that any of them will ever procreate. Same for Arya, who just went on a life-long vagabonding. It looks like Edmure Tully was the only man with a kid at that Kingsmoot (and Sam, but it looks like he’s fathering a bastard). So it’s just silly: young people stories should be about settling down and getting spouses and kids, rather than about ending up in dysfunctional loneliness be it on the throne, or on a horseback, or on bord of a ship.

  122. JGillz,

    Oh, and the Stark children now rule everything. King of the six kingdoms, Queen in the North, and presumably the King Beyond the Wall.

  123. Nina: The whole reason to bring Jon back from the death, was for him to reject Daenerys, so she would feel abandoned by everyone, so she would choose fear over love? 🤨

    No. The show has clearly condensed Jon’s storyline in the resolution of the war with The Others and has long since parted ways with the Azor Ahai prophecies, Lightbringer and TPWWP return from the dead. The gods care about the return of the Others and the End of All Things. They don’t care about who rules men.

    We’ll have to wait for the book (and yes, maybe that won’t happen) to get the “real” ending for the Others and Jon’s Azor Ahai arc. But in the end, Dany dies, Bran becomes King with Tyrion his hand and Jon goes north of the Wall. I will buy that.

    The rest – including the so-called Independent North (which I am not convinced will ever happen in the books) is probably just fan-fic. But very well financed fan-fic done under license. So unless (and until) ADoS comes out? This is what we have. It’s better than nothing.

  124. Emily,

    Installing a “super-human”, the most magic character, as leader is one of the most dystopian pointless possible ends to the story that could have happened. A story that last 8 years – it ends by refusing its human viewers even this basic validation.

    Tolkien affirmed us by shifting magic away. GRRM, lol. The conceit.

  125. Inga:
    Ten Bears,

    Yes, it really looks like Jon is becomming King Beyond the Wall. But is it realistic to expect, that a man with such a story who is 25 at best will lead a quite and lonely life? I think not.
    In general, my greatest disappointment was that none of the survivers ended up settled in any meaningful way. Jon, Sansa, Bran, and Tyrion got “dream jobs”, but there’s no sign that any of them will ever procreate. Same for Arya, who just went on a life-long vagabonding. It looks like Edmure Tully was the only man with a kid at that Kingsmoot (and Sam, but it looks like he’s fathering a bastard). So it’s just silly: young people stories should be about settling down and getting spouses and kids, rather than about ending up in dysfunctional loneliness be it on the throne, or on a horseback, or on bord of a ship.

    Lots of agree with here.

    Bitter story.

  126. rizwan:
    And thus ends what promised to be the greatest TV show of all time, betrayed and raped by the very creators who started it. Good luck for HBO with its spin-offs after what they did here. And long may WoTW reign with the spin-offs. I am done with GoT forever.My watch has ended.

    Bit dramatic 🤣, “raped”……….I’d get some sensitivity training if that’s how strongly you feel about it. I truly feel sorry for those who hate how this has ended, I guess the it really does suck to be you lol.

  127. Boojam,

    The best end for Jon would have been buned by Drogon sitting on the Iron Throne with Dany’s body on his lap. But I tend to re-write my fanfiction from the beginning of Ep 4, so I don’t really care.

  128. The fact that all the major players got a “happy ending”…
    I mean think about it.
    – Sansa is Queen
    – Arya is off to Essos (although imagine her face when she sets her anchor near the Dothraki Sea and has to explain to the dothraki how the fam killed their Khal lmfaaoo i have to cackle)
    – Tyrion is Hand
    – Bran is King
    – Sam somehow survived the Long Night and is now living his dream as Grandmaester
    – Cersei and Jaime literally died in each others arms
    – And Jon is back North, exiled sure, but exactly where he always wanted to be as a kid. He can live out his days with the wildlings, find a woman (he did it once before) and even start a family if he likes..

    The only one who got a sad ending is Daenerys. And she died alone, murdered by someone she trusted. And now Drogon is roaming the world alone with no mother or brothers.

    But I digress.. I choose to believe that Grey Worm and the Unsullied going to Naath means they further Dany’s legacy by continuing to liberate people who can’t fend for themselves.

  129. Ten Bears: If Khaleesi had to go, Jon ought to have called in a professional. Someone to pull off the hit quickly and quietly and then dusappear into the shadows. Geez, Arya was in town to kill a queen anyway.

    Yeah, everything in ASoIaF tells us that the resolution of the Others is Jon’s tale. And Arya’s super -assassin skills she learned in the House of Black and White was something to be used for more than bringing Winter to House Frey.

    How the show gets to the end is the show. How the books will get there (please George!) is the books. They are separate and distinct paths. Which doesn’t mean that Daenerys will not be assassinated after losing it. Hell, it might even be Jon that does it — I just don’t think that’s the path. Perhaps it will be? GRRM will let us know in his own time. Or, perhaps he won’t. If not, we still have an ending.

    Amazon can bring on The Wheel of Time now. Sanderson’s ending was excellent, btw. There was no division among the fanbase of The Wheel of Time *ahem*.

  130. Tycho Nestoris,

    Yes. The only way to make this kill possible was to make Dany wait and long for this kill, after acknowledging what she has done. Instead, they forced her blab out lines from L’Internationale. Oh, well…

  131. Actually enjoyed the finale. One question I haven’t seen asked by anyone here: At the final small council meeting, Bran asks if there’s been any word of Drogon. Haven’t we been show the last few years Bran’s ability to see what everyone else was doing and where? It seems he should be the first to know that answer.

    Thank you WotW for all you have done and continue to do. The experience has been enhanced greatly by all of you!

  132. Nina,

    The show (and books) literally started with the Starks (not counting the prologue). The fact that it ends with the Starks is at least one bit of continuity in this season. It was always going to be about the Starks.

  133. Sue, thanks so much for your recap! I enjoyed the episode immensely and was fortunate enough to see it on the ‘big screen’. I really think the show could go another 10 years, George or no George. I’m going to miss that talented cast albeit with all the recent deaths. Even so, I thought it wrapped up all the characters quite neatly. I was surprised to see Bronn as master of coin as he has always been totally self-serving but I’m sure Tyrian will keep him in check; ‘Expand the Brothels’!!! I was a little disappointed that they didn’t work the Azor Ahai prophecy into Dany’s death scene but it had to be subtle and the way it was done was truly tragic. It’s hard to believe that it’s over but am looking forward to the future of ‘Watchers on the Wall’. Will always look forward to the wonderful articles and the excellent posts. Thanks again! Valor Dehairis!

  134. Steel_Wind,

    But Jon’s role in the war against the AOTD was just creating a diversion, so that Arya could get her moment with the NK. He could have done that with a smaller army; Dany and her dragons we not even necessary, etc. So, it’s really a lame storytelling.

  135. Ten Bears,

    As many are saying, perhaps the “punishment” was planned only to please GW.
    Oh and I wish they had given us GW’s reaction to what Jon did and logic behind why he simply arrested him n not kill him on the spot.
    [& just for the sake of drama I wanted to see Sansa/Arya’s reaction to Jon’s parentage too 🙁 ]

  136. Inga,

    young people stories should be about settling down and getting spouses and kids, rather than about ending up in dysfunctional loneliness be it on the throne, or on a horseback, or on bord of a ship.

    (checking calendar, yep its 2019) why should they be? Yes if you are talking about the GOT world, but now there is no limit to stories for young people, and who says that they will be in dysfunctional loneliness if they don’t settle down?

  137. rizwan,
    Dane,

    Unfortunately, I had the same feeling after Ep 5 – raped; just lured to a party with false promises and raped (and I know how it feels in real life). So, I’m here with Rizwan and all of us have a right to an oppinion, even if this oppinion is expressed in harsh words. Not like it’s unmotivated.

  138. Inga,

    Are you serious? Without Dany’s army, Winterfell would have fallen a lot faster and Arya would never have had the opportunity to kill the Night King. Arya said it herself. They needed Danerys and her dragons.

  139. The logic and the character identities were suspended for most of this season, but this last episode, the council/trial scene. Oh. My. F*. Seven. Gods. And the Lord of Light, too.

    So, consider this. Yara essentially negotiated the independence of the Iron Islands back in Season 6. Dorne was a de-facto independent kingdom with a prince of their own with a kind of status-quo arrangement with the Iron Throne. Yara, at the beginning of the trial, is obviously mad and pissed and then she and the Dornish prince both vote for Bran? And even after Sansa declares the North’s independence, everyone is hunky-dory, Yara and Dorne just keep sitting down like nothing just happened? There is no was in seven hells they would just have kept sitting on their butts.

    Half the group was just about to execute Tyrion, and then not only they listen to him, but they let him convince them who to elect? And they unilaterally just say “sure, cool with me”. All of them? Half of which have hated Lannisters for all of their lives?

    And how did Jon end up in prison? I assume Grey Worm just arrested him? Unsullied have just finished slaughtering the remaining Lannister soldiers out of blind obedience to their queen, so how much sense does it make they didn’t just kill Jon on the spot after figuring out what he did?

    And the Night Watch? What’s the point of the Night Watch after the Night King is defeated. Keep the Freefolk on the other side of the wall, perhaps?

    And what’s Brienne doing in King’s Landing anyway? She swore an oath to Sansa, she never swore anything to Bran.

    The aftermath of Dany’s death would have been bloody and painful, it could have easily taken an episode on its own. And I don’t think it would have ended with any Unsullied still having any say in King’s Landing or anywhere else in Westeros for that matter. Everyone in Westeros hated the Unsullied and the Dothraki, and they would have fought. No way it would have ended in that council paying any attention to Gray Worm.

    To me, this season, and the last episode in particular, felt like watching a theatre play in Braavos, akin to those Arya watched in season 5…

  140. Steel_Wind,

    Jon was the only one who could kill Dany without being killed by Drogon. If Arya had killed Dany, Drogon would have killed her.

  141. Still trying to digest it all, but a few random thoughts.

    The Dany/throne room scene. They used the exact same shot, the camera rising from behind the Iron Throne, as they did in S1 or S2, when Sansa was pleading for Ned’s life or was being tormented by Joffrey for Robb’s deeds. The implication then was that the Iron Throne, or who sits on it, is evil.

    In her HOTU vision, Dany reaches for the Iron Throne but does not touch it, turning away instead. Now she touches it, and the music goes boom!

    Dany looks at the Iron Throne as a person would look at a lover, just before Jon arrives. It’s not beautiful, it’s terrifying.

    Dany trying to convince Jon reminded me of Selyse’s religious fervour in S5. Paraphrasing but it was somehing like “Did you see it? Did you see it? The Lord of Light cleansed his soul!” It was when Mel burned someone, can’t remember the exact details, just the feeling of unease I got from her religious zealotry. Shireen looked away (as well she might) but Selyse was almost in ecstasy. And now Dany gave me the same vibe, only, Dany’s fervour is for a religion in which she is the god.

    A couple of little things I loved.

    “Ser Podrick!” I squealed! Of the Kingsguard, no less!

    Sansa’s weirwood dress. So gorgeous I almost fainted.

  142. I feel the writers did a great injustice to Jon and Daeny’s character. So I have written an alternate ending:
    My ending:
    Daney does not destroy KL. Instead she flys to the red keep to kill Cersei. Then as Drogon is lighting up the keep the wildfire is ignited and blows back Daeny and Drogon causing them to land outside the city. Drogon is injured and cannot fly, but Daeny goes back to the city to face Cersei. She meets up with one of her Dothraki and they ride to the red keep.
    Meanwhile Jon, and the unsullied are on their way to the Red Keep and find Cersei trying to escape. Arya finds her first and is about to kill her when Jon stops Arya. Jaime shows up and he and Cersei lock eyes just as Arya kills Jaime, and Cersei runs over to him only to have him die in her arms.
    They capture Cersei and lock her in the dark cells. Daeny meets up and lays into Cersei, but Jon convinces Daeny to show mercy and have Cersei confined to a prison for the rest of her days.
    Oh, and Rhaegal never died.
    End of episode 5.

    Episode 6
    Starts off with Daeny and Jon in the throne room talking. Daeny tells Jon she is pregnant and Jon marries her, b/c he said he would never have a bastard. They marry and Daeny rules the kingdom w/ Jon at her side, and their baby girl, Lyanna Rhaella Targaryan. Drongon is healed and can fly again and he and Rhaegal keep watch over Daeny, Jon and little Lyanna.
    Back in WF, Bran is there and Mera Reed shows up. She is thankful for all he did in the destruction of the NK, and leans in close to him, only to stab him in the chest to die. You see, Bran and the NK have always been connected and one cannot be alive if the other is dead, so Mera kills him.
    That’s my ending, I like it and am much more satisfied with this one than the show’s version where they shit on these characters we have been following since Season 1.

  143. Inga,

    Rape is never a word to be used in regards to feelings about a television show. It’s disrespectful to those who have actually suffered from it, and if you are one of those people as you claim, I’m surprised you find it acceptable. It’s just a show.

  144. Ten Bears:
    fdr,

    I kinda wondered how Jon got arrested for assassinating Dany. There was no body – Drogon took care of that I suppose there was that pool of blood on the ground.. if he weren’t so honest he could pull a Ramsay and say “Our Queen… was poisoned by our enemies” or shanked by a Lannister hold-out bent on revenge.

    If Khaleesi had to go, Jon ought to have called in a professional. Someone to pull off the hit quickly and quietly and then dusappear into the shadows. Geez, Arya was in town to kill a queen anyway.

    Jon’s too honorable. The one that passes the sentence swings the sword. That would never have happened…

  145. The road to the ending was unceremonious and rushed.
    The ending itself: Thought provoking, gorgeous, and… yes… Bittersweet.

    The story of Daenerys really just has my mind going in 1000 different thoughts and tangents.
    and Emilia Clarke deserves an emmy this season.

  146. Look, what is to say Jon won’t be pardoned?? Who will even know if he were to return to Winterfell? Sooner or later the gossip would reach the other realms. But HOW would they go to war? Armies are too scattered. Jon is back in few years. Happier ending that way.

    But Bran a king? He was a zombie until the last episode

  147. Young Dragon,

    Yes, Arya said, but I don’t see the difference. The whole point was that the NK had to decimate the army defending Winterfell and Bran, get a false sense of safety by blocking Jon and other people with Valyrian steel swords, come to Bran and get killed by Arya. So, the actual size of the army never really mattered. With a smaller army it would just happened faster. Sure, Melisandre would have had to give her encoragement to Arya earlier, too, but it’s just a minor detail.

  148. No wonder Disney hired Benioff and Weiss for Star Wars. They just topped JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson by dismantling a decade’s worth of iconic TV in just two episodes. Thanks for the nihilism and red herrings. I’ll take the cast and Ramin Djawadi with me, and go on my way.

    And thank you Sue, the other mods and writers, and all the posters here at this site. This is the best GoT site on the Internet, and I’ve had a blast hanging out here. Thank you.

  149. talvikorppi,

    Come to think of it, maybe the S1 or S2 shot was the camera sinking behind the Iron Throne. Anyway, you got the same image of the spiky swords and the implication is the same.

  150. Inga,

    I think you got into some trouble for use of rape – but I respect the expression of emotion.

    Perhaps we could use – traumatized.

    Deliberately and with premeditation traumatized by storytellers. Somewhere on the Internet someone talked about a narrative pact between storytellers and listeners. I am not sure I get the concept – but I know that in this case, the storytellers screwed the listeners.

    Years of story, then they did the pivot and slipped us the shiv.

  151. Thanks for you gave us such a epic story. But in last episode I didn’t expect the end of the queen Daenerys Targaryen & Jon Snow’s story like that. Jon lost his love, she lost her throne too. It broke my heart, I felt not good to watch all about this. Atleast she deserve a happy ending in last with Jon. I wish you could change the climax. I am so sad.

  152. Mango:
    So does anyone know how long the 3 Eyed Raven lives?Will Bran rule forever?

    How old was Brynden Rivers? Wasn’t he close to death before Bran got to him?

  153. Mango: Somewhere on the Internet someone talked about a narrative pact between storytellers and listeners. I am not sure I get the concept – but I know that in this case, the storytellers screwed the listeners.

    Years of story, then they did the pivot and slipped us the shiv.

    And the cast and crew were screwed over also. All that company loyalty and hard work, only to have the story end up like that.

  154. Of course Bronn is the master of coins, obviously the Lord of High Garden, the richest part in Westeros, is the best choice.

  155. talvikorppi: “Ser Podrick!” I squealed! Of the Kingsguard, no less!

    That was the worst “reward” of all to poor Ser Podrick. The knighthood was deserved. But Pod was condemned to take the oath of celibacy of the Kingsguard. The greatest lover of women in the Seven Kingdoms. He left the feast hall with TWO in Ep 4!

    The whores will be weeping all the way to Dorne.

    Note: Did Daniel Portman have a single line — One. Single. Word. — spoken to the cameras in Season 8? I think the answer is “no”. He was an extra with a name all season long. Not sure if that was some legal muckety-muck going on with that decision or not.

  156. Young Dragon:
    Inga,

    Rape is never a word to be used in regards to feelings about a television show. It’s disrespectful to those who have actually suffered from it, and if you are one of those people as you claim, I’m surprised you find it acceptable. It’s just a show.

    I do not know if you are a native English speaker – but let me assure you that the word rape is used in other contexts besides sexual assault. For example, have you heard of the “Rape of Nanjing” ? Rape is used for an assault but it does NOT have to be sexual.

    I have suggested another word to the poster due to any sensitivities.

  157. Lol I didn’t realize the fact that House Stark is doomed.

    There is no Stark cousins Sansa can marry to. She will be the last Stark un Invernalia

  158. I wrote a long post and somehow lost it. So I’ll just repeat: YAS! my sidekick trio of Brienne, Davos and Pod all survived and got to be SERs. Sidekicks for the win! 😀

  159. Inga,

    Again, Winterfell would have been overrun without Dany’s assistance. Her army provided Arya with the opportunity to kill the Night King. That is an undeniable fact.

  160. All those pathetic parents who named their daughters “Danaerys” should have named them “Dracarys” instead.
    Hah!

  161. I like this , Cogman is a very articulate spokesman:

    “I still don’t know how I feel about a lot of what happens this season and I helped write it,” Cogman says. “It’s emotionally very challenging. It’s designed to not feel good. That said, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. The best drama is the type you have to think about. There’s a dangerous tendency right now to make art and popular culture to feel safe for everybody and make everybody feel okay when watching and I don’t believe in that. The show is messy and grey and that’s where it’s always lived — from Jaime pushing a little boy out the window to Ned Stark’s death to the Red Wedding. This is the kind of story that’s meant to unsettle you and challenge you and make you think and question. I think that was George’s intent and what David and Dan wanted to do. However you feel about the final episodes of this show I don’t think anybody will ever accuse us of taking the easy way out.”

    Article here:
    https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/19/game-thrones-finale-interview-emilia-clarke/

  162. I have been a silent visitor to this site for the last 5 years, I think I just commented twice or so, but read all articles and a few hundred comments. It was a great ride. I was first bummed that the WW and the NK, as well as the faceless men and all those other magical elements did not get any more back story in the finale, but on the other hand it was perfect. GRRM compared the dragons to atomic bombs once and in that sense the ending amde perfect sense. I always considered the White Walkers as something like a natural catastrophe and in the end that is probably what happens everywhere in the world. If disasters occur, other countries sometimes quickly forget and don’t want to be bothered with it. Thinking about it this way, it was bittersweet for me that all these terrible things happened with our characters, but Bran will be there to keep the memory alive. Speaking of alive: I hope this site will stay alive as well!!

  163. Mango,

    I am an English speaker, but I’ve never heard of that. Rape carries such a negative connotation that I don’t think it should simply be thrown around, especially in a situation like this. Traumatized is better and not disrespectful, but I still think using the word is a bit of an overreaction.

  164. Here in Spain HBO translated Bran the Broken as Bran el Tullido

    Which means Bran the Cripple

    A mess.

  165. Kyle14:
    Im laughing at the overwhelming love for this ending on this site. I thought this was where the smart fans are? Anyone that criticizes the ending on here are trashed thoroughly. Incredible. In my terrible awful horrible opinion I’ll be forgetting about everything after The Winds of Winter 6×10.

    Overwhelming love for the ending?? I haven’t had a chance to read everything yet but I’m certainly not seeing anything close to “overwhelming love” of it. Perhaps you’re mistaking civilized discussion and conversation regarding specific points as ‘love’ because you want and think everyone should have a hissy-fit and throw shit across the room like children…?

  166. InJonWeTrust:
    Ten Bears,
    Oh and I wish they had given us GW’s reaction to what Jon did and logic behind why he simply arrested him n not kill him on the spot.

    Maybe because he is a soldier and just applies orders, and it would have been out of character if he did ? Nobody was left to give the order, sand even Dany did not order to kill Tyrion straight away, so he did the same with Jon ?

  167. Mango: Bran will rule for over a thousand years!

    This has Dune vibes to it. God Emperor Bran? The all-seeing tyrant whose long, suffocating rule will finally break the wheel of Westeros and bring the Scattering of humanity into true freedom when Bran dies?

    Actually, this could have been epic if the writers developed this angle. Youtuber Ideas of Ice and Fire would have liked this storyline, him being a huge Dune fan.

    All these lost opportunities, damn it!

  168. Boojam:
    I like this , Cogman is a very articulate spokesman:

    “I still don’t know how I feel about a lot of what happens this season and I helped write it,” Cogman says. “It’s emotionally very challenging. It’s designed to not feel good. That said, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. The best drama is the type you have to think about. There’s a dangerous tendency right now to make art and popular culture to feel safe for everybody and make everybody feel okay when watching and I don’t believe in that. The show is messy and grey and that’s where it’s always lived — from Jaime pushing a little boy out the window to Ned Stark’s death to the Red Wedding. This is the kind of story that’s meant to unsettle you and challenge you and make you think and question. I think that was George’s intent and what David and Dan wanted to do. However you feel about the final episodes of this show I don’t think anybody will ever accuse us of taking the easy way out.”

    Article here:
    https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/19/game-thrones-finale-interview-emilia-clarke/

    Fuck that.

  169. Ghost 4 King: Bran asks if there’s been any word of Drogon. Haven’t we been show the last few years Bran’s ability to see what everyone else was doing and where? It seems he should be the first to know that answer.

    I guess that was simply their way of letting the viewers know the characters were wondering where he went too without actually telling us where he went. Bran did say, “Perhaps I can find him. Do carry on with the rest,” which indicated he hadn’t taken the time to look for him yet.

  170. Mango: I do not know if you are a native English speaker – but let me assure you that the word rape is used in other contexts besides sexual assault.For example, have you heard of the “Rape of Nanjing” ? Rape is used for an assault but it does NOT have to be sexual.

    I have suggested another word to the poster due to any sensitivities.

    Many women were raped in the rape of nanjing though, so not really the best comparison to use in this scenario one could argue……l

  171. Boojam: Cogman: “I don’t think anybody will ever accuse us of taking the easy way out.”

    Except. . .you did take the easy way out. 🤣

    Glad I cancelled my subscription to Entertainment Weekly.

  172. RIP Jon Snow.

    You died in S7E6, mewling “my queen” for no reason at all.

    Your body and soul were desecrated repeatedly over the following 6 episodes before your character was finally cremated in S8E6, when you tried to justify genocide for no reason at all while mewling “You are my queen. Now and always” for no reason at all.

    Your ashes were scattered north of The Wall

    I didn’t hate where everything ended up, but I do very much dislike what they did to some of the characters while getting there. And it all unquestionably could’ve been handled much better from a storytelling perspective.

  173. Flora Linden: This has Dune vibes to it. God Emperor Bran? The all-seeing tyrant whose long, suffocatingrule will finally break the wheel of Westeros and bring the Scattering of humanity into true freedom when Bran dies?

    Actually, this could have been epic if the writers developed this angle. Youtuber Ideas of Ice and Fire would have liked this storyline, him being a huge Dune fan.

    All these lost opportunities, damn it!

    Yes, depressives that live in their mother’s basement would love it.

    But yes, a huge part of the problem was that it was not built up before. So far Bran has behaved almost like an inanimate object. What has been his contribution to humanity to end up where he is? Meera, Hodor – when has he shown any generosity of heart and wisdom? Did the viewer get an opportunity to attach to him as a leader before he is unveiled as king?

    Man, the night king should have killed him! Missed opportunity, that.

    (I do not know the Dune story but I think it was famous book, right?)

  174. Mango,

    yeah I second that.

    The best drama is the type you have to think about.

    ^but not too hard or you might get a maga brain infection trying to keep the mental gymnastics going.

  175. It was a horrible, anticlimactic, meaningless, nonsensical, underwhelming finale, filled with fanservice. I’m not even convinced that this will be Martin’s ending, but that’s his problem, if he maintains that it is he’ll loose many readers –no one is going to read through Jon’s ressurection just to establish that this, and his well guarded descent means absolutely nothing for the ending. For Martin “art is not a democracy” but apparently for D&D it is. They gave the audience exactly what they wanted: a Jonerys romance with tragic ending, Tyrion thriving, Bran king, Cleganebowl.
    This is simply proven by the fact that Tyrion is not speaking to Jon, he’s speaking to the audience, summarizing what attentive viewers knew all along. Well, surprise, some of us have been paying attention, but apprently D&D didn’t make the show for us, but for all the rest who expected that Daenerys was the freaking hero. For her to crush and burn they sidelined the story’s basic protagonist who got no say on Daenerys’ fate (Tyrion implicitly told him to do it, and he did!) or his own for that matter, not to mention the country’s reconstruction; the Starks became watchers in their own story; the grand secret meant nothing apart from pushing the bitch to madness; everybody else’s POVs just disappeared for good or for most of the story (Davos, Varys, Sansa’s, Sam’s) -oh, apart from Arya; she was used to highlight the people’s suffering, the destruction and meaninglessness of it all. And along with the Starks, attentive viewers who saw it coming also got punished. We should have known better.
    In which universe (medieveal or otherwise) does the hero get punished on demand of a warcriminal, in this case Greyworm? In which universe this criminal sails from the country and his wish is being fulfilled like a treasured legacy? So, what, is the hero not forgiven for killing a mass-murderer? the perpetrator of a genocide? But the actual warcriminal who led his legions against unarmed people and executed systematically prisoners of war gets to walk free! I’m screaming.
    In which universe this hero is punished, but the one that actually led to all this mess, who was a proven murderer, killing his own father and his mistress, betraying the Starks, his queen and his best friend all in the same episode, gets to get a redemption by excercising authority once again?
    In which medieval universe does someone who is an invalid, a prophet, incapable of bearing children and able to know everyone’s crimes, become a king? In medieval times physical ability and wits is a sine-qua-non, and primogeniture is paramount for the succession through the male line; in which medieval universe will there be no conspiracy to overthrow this all-knowing, imputent king? The showrunners fail to see that primogeniture may have flaws, but it is also strong and secures stability.
    D&D delivered an absolute mess; they have been telling another story until the end of season 7. For some reason, between seasons 7 and 8, they decided to deviate from their initial plan (and I will die on this hill). Their bringing back of Beric more or less proves this for me. In the books Beric is dead. They didn’t need him, but they were probably going for a dramatic moment of another resurrection, whereby Beric would die (or at least they wanted to have the option to do it). He didn’t need to be the one to save Arya, Clegane could have been; but they decided nooooo, Cleganebowl! And there go all the plans down the drain.
    They followed the book forshadowing until well into season 7, but they completely changed route in season 8. It turned out, the burning of the Tarlys amounts to nothing; only Missandei’s execution and Rhaegal’s death does. Apparently, Show Jon is incompetent to make the connection: how is it that the Tarlys’ execution is just, but Jon defends -fucking defends- Dany for feeling outraged for the execution of Missandei and roasting an entire city for it? Varys’ plotting to put Jon on the throne also amounts to nothing. The armies’ gathering at KL, which btw we didn’t get to see but we know they’re there, probably brought by Sansa, amounts to nothing. Sam’s being the only heir to Horn Hill amounts to nothing (all the book foreshadowing is ignored, we all love Sam being maester without completing his studies, don’t we?) Bran repeating like a robot for two seasons “I cannot be lord of anything” amounts to nothing. Well, they didn’t ask him about being king, did they? Tyrion’s line should have been “you’re king of the Seven Kingdoms” already in ep. 4. And Bran’s line to Jamie “you wouldn’t help us in this war” was just for Tyrion just to feel crushed by his brother’s death and try to convince Jon to kill Daenerys. This is the logical train of thinking of three-year olds, and it’s probably an offense to the three-year-olds.
    None of these people at the Dragonpit defended Jon. Wow. No words at that! Alright, only Tyrion kind of, and Sansa actually defends Jon by threatening with another war if anything happens to him. So, they actually filmed two seasons (6-7) of unexpressed sexual tension between Jon and Sansa, continued with Sansa’s open jealousy for Daenerys being so close to Jon for nothing? They filmed them constantly in season 8 as a ruling couple, recalling Ned-Cat parallels, for nothing? They had her telling Tyrion about Jon’s parentage for nothing –oops, sorry, it was for something: she did break up her family, after all. Now the Starks may rule it all but they’re scattered at the four points of the horizon. The freaking protagonists of the story! What is it that ST said? “She knows who she wants to be with”, and “she goes behind their backs, risking breaking up her family”. Well, congrats, Sansa, you did break up your family, and guess what? No matter who you want to be with, you’re alone! You don’t get the boy after all! Or your sister, or your brother! Yeah, power comes with a high price, only those that are less to blame get to be punished the most, just like in the real world. So what else is new?
    They just didn’t have the balls to follow through their own fucking story. Sorry, D&D! Well, apparently balls matter, the show at least has been consistent on that one!
    They want us to believe that Bran shall be king in a protodemocracy type of regime while there’s no foreshadow in the books for any of it? That Jon will feel remorse for killing a war criminal? That “love is the bane of duty” or whatever? That fucking Ned was a traitor to his own king and his own family for years and years for the love of his sister so that Jon gets to live and that all this will not matter to Jon at all? So what is the “duty” in this case? To follow through with whatever Dany decides, burn babies, murder prisoners of war, go on with the massacre all over Westeros? Is that the duty Jon blames his love for Daenerys made him foresake? Or uphold, I’m confused because it makes absolutely no sense! Am I to believe that he wants to be punished for killing her, he even defends Dany’s choice to kill him, JFC!
    Book Jon is one of the most competent diplomats and leaders, shrewd and almost unscrupulous. Show Jon is just Daenerys’ puppy. Book Jon would never love Daenerys, but Show Jon apparently loves her, no matter if KH was directed to look at her as if he couldn’t believe what he was seeing, hearing, and feeling, from day one. She got a king and turned him into nothing; he gave up his crown, his claim, his family for her; she literally asked him to be a nobody, she burned a city, and still, ShowJon loves that woman, needs convincing about killing her, and is torn about it? No way. That wasn’t the story I was watching.
    Perhaps the basic heroes will have the same or a similar ending in the books. The Starks rule it all, from the northern to the southern shores. But it will be much better done, without inconsistencies, much more fulfilling, without the cruel punishment D&D chose for some of them, sacrificing reason and consistency on the altar of stupid plot twists that are up in the air, unfounded, books and show.
    So much for the declarations that it would be a story of five initial characters; they boast about it, Martin does, too. I only saw one character in season 8, and that was Daenerys. Where are the rest? Exiled, alone.
    The story D&D told us is in the end not Martin’s story; they didn’t spoil anything for the books after all. It’s their own ending and it’s disappointing. Well, TV has its own rules; it addresses the masses. Time to go back to a good book.

  176. Dane: Many women were raped in the rape of nanjing though, so not really the best comparison to use in this scenario one could argue……l

    Yes, but that does not change the point I am making. I suggested to the poster that she uses traumatized.

    And for the action that everyone is sensitive about – sexual assault is the better term.

  177. Mango: I do not know the Dune story but I think it was famous book, right?

    It was already summed up right there. The Dune series has a seer as the Known Universe’s Emperor. Almost immortal and able to see the future, he restricts humanity’s growth on purpose for some (frankly rather bullshit) idea that humanity will than snap back like an elastic band. Basically, it’s Bran in the form of a giant sandworm.

    I’m on the same page in thinking this is a rather rubbish ending. Bran’s magical powers have the potential to make him a despot even worse than Dany. Maybe the Night King was the good guy after all.

  178. rizwan:
    And thus ends what promised to be the greatest TV show of all time, betrayed and raped by the very creators who started it. Good luck for HBO with its spin-offs after what they did here. And long may WoTW reign with the spin-offs. I am done with GoT forever.My watch has ended.

    You don’t have to like it. Your opinion is insignificant to them anyways because they don’t even know you exist. But saying that they “raped” the show is vile and shows what kind of person you are.

    Inga:
    rizwan,
    Dane,

    Unfortunately, I had the same feeling after Ep 5 – raped; just lured to a party with false promises and raped (and I know how it feels in real life). So, I’m here with Rizwan and all of us have a right to an oppinion, even if this oppinion is expressed in harsh words. Not like it’s unmotivated.

    Bull—-shit. If you really knew how it feels in real life, you would not say that people “raped” the show just because you did not like an episode.

  179. Nkforever,

    Because Sansa’s the queen and Westeros has a long tradition of women passing on the family name when the case requires it. And beyond which, she’s the queen, she can do whatever she wants.

  180. Young Dragon: He sang “Jenny of Oldstones.”

    That hauntingly beautiful song. I think my problem, and the problem of a seeming majority of the fandom is that we are much like Jenny from the song: We never wanted to leave. We never wanted to leave.

  181. Emily: It was already summed up right there. The Dune series has a seer as the Known Universe’s Emperor. Almost immortal and able to see the future, he restricts humanity’s growth on purpose for some (frankly rather bullshit) idea that humanity will than snap back like an elastic band. Basically, it’s Bran in the form of a giant sandworm.

    I’m on the same page in thinking this is a rather rubbish ending. Bran’s magical powers have the potential to make him a despot even worse than Dany. Maybe the Night King was the good guy after all.

    Yes, then, I agree.

    It would be like Dune.

  182. Flora Linden: This has Dune vibes to it. God Emperor Bran? The all-seeing tyrant whose long, suffocatingrule will finally break the wheel of Westeros and bring the Scattering of humanity into true freedom when Bran dies?

    Actually, this could have been epic if the writers developed this angle. Youtuber Ideas of Ice and Fire would have liked this storyline, him being a huge Dune fan.

    All these lost opportunities, damn it!

    Oh yes, I agree.

  183. Mango: Yes, but that does not change the point I am making. I suggested to the poster that she uses traumatized.

    And for the action that everyone is sensitive about – sexual assault is the better term.

    That does not negate the fact that using the word “raped” because a fictional tv show ended undershelmingly indicates that the person using said word needs some sensitivity training and should probably avoid watching tv lol.

  184. Mango,

    Yes, Dune is a terrific sci-fi saga. The first “Dune” novel is a stand-alone classic which I highly recommend. The “Dune” universe is a cross between Star Wars and Game of Thrones – think of Westeros’s noble house system set in a galactic empire. And like GoT, the original series was unfinished. Frank Herbert died after writing only 6 books.

    There is a Bran like character in the saga, whose long rule caused humanity to scatter throughout the galaxy because of his tyranny. It turns out he did this intentionally, so humanity could never be fully controlled or annihilated again.

    The Bran as king angle might have worked if the show started with Bran on the throne (a WTF moment) and through flashbacks/visions traced how Bran got there.

    Or, as you pointed out, when the NK kills Bran, Bran could have his consciousness jump into the weirwoods.

    I’m really enjoying your posts today Mango! 🙂

    Edit: Just read Emily’s post, sorry for the repeat.

  185. Emily: It was already summed up right there. The Dune series has a seer as the Known Universe’s Emperor. Almost immortal and able to see the future, he restricts humanity’s growth on purpose for some (frankly rather bullshit) idea that humanity will than snap back like an elastic band. Basically, it’s Bran in the form of a giant sandworm.

    I’m on the same page in thinking this is a rather rubbish ending. Bran’s magical powers have the potential to make him a despot even worse than Dany. Maybe the Night King was the good guy after all.

    I loved the first 2 books of the Dune series. The rest, ehh. I get the comparison between Bran and the Emperor, at least in terms of their “power”.

  186. Mango,

    Listen, I don’t know you nor am I interested in you. But until the day when what you have managed so far in your life has amassed to anything vaguely resembling 0.001 % of what the creators of GoT have done with this series you should perhaps tone it down just a little, don’t you think?

  187. JGillz,

    “2. Jon being a secret Targaryen essentially amounted to nothing more than a plot device to create a conflict between he and Dany. Jon would’ve turned on Dany for going Mad Queen, so the conflict between them over his heritage didn’t really change the outcome.”
    _____
    I’m not complaining. Just observing and responding.
    I too was perplexed by the Jon parentage mystery that pervaded the show since early S1, with so much setup and drama for the ultimate Tower of Joy reveal. I naturally assumed there would be monumental ramifications to that revelation – among his sisters. the Northerners, the entire realm, and Jon’s own self-identity.

    I just assumed there was a perfect setup for “high thread count”™️ interpersonal movements showing the effects of this finally-unveiled secret. But they cut away so we didn’t get the impact on Arya & Sansa. The Northerners either never found out or if they did their responses weren’t deemed important. I kind of wanted to see Jon relieved from his self-loathing as a second-class “bastard” contrasted with his mixed emotions that his life story was a lie, albeit created to protect his life. I also would’ve liked just one or two minutes – maybe with Jaime, who knew Rhaegar – in which Jon asked for a little bit of backstory about his real father and tried to reconcile the false kidnap & rape narrative with the true love & marriage historical facts.

    Maybe it’s just me. Those are the kind of character moments that made the show great. I had a hard time reconciling all of that seven season-long set up just to create a potential roadblock to Dany’s “born to rule” ambition with the appearance of a rival Targ claimant for the throne. I thought at least Jon’s Targ heritage would fulfill some significant prophecy to help save the world; set up his eventual ascension to monarch as a union of North & South families, or at the very least, help him find answers to the questions that plagued him about his mother – the questions Ned (in S1e2?) promised to answer when they saw each other again:

    (S1e2)
    Ned: “…And you are a Stark. You might not have my name, but you have my blood.”
    Jon: “ls my mother alive? Does she know about me? Where l am, where l’m going? Does she care?”
    Ned: “The next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother. Hmm? l promise.”

    ™️ Thronetender

  188. Dane: That does not negate the fact that using the word “raped” because a fictional tv show ended undershelmingly indicates that the person using said word needs some sensitivity training and should probably avoid watching tv lol.

    Ok. Many here are not English speakers and do not have as many word tools as they may need. The poster is experiencing very negative emotions and maybe the best thing is to allow the venting in this safe space. Just cover your eyes when those posts come up.

    Anyway, perhaps GOT has cured many of watching TV?

    I have had HBO for close to 20 years. Maybe it is time for change – lots of new providers have come in since then. I will look around. I have only been watching GOT and My Brilliant Friend – so maybe the timing is opportune.

  189. Steel_Wind: That was the worst “reward” of all to poor Ser Podrick. The knighthood was deserved. But Pod was condemned to take the oath of celibacy of the Kingsguard. The greatest lover of women in the Seven Kingdoms. He left the feast hall with TWO in Ep 4!

    The whores will be weeping all the way to Dorne.

    Note: Did Daniel Portman have a single line — One. Single. Word. — spoken to the cameras in Season 8? I think the answer is “no”. He was an extra with a name all season long. Not sure if that was some legal muckety-muckgoing on with that decision or not.

    Nope. Just a beautiful song.
    Do Knights have to take the Kingsguard appointment? I know some Kings made knights take it, but I can’t imagine Bran would have forced it on Podric.

  190. Sam: I loved the first 2 books of the Dune series. The rest, ehh. I get the comparison between Bran and the Emperor, at least in terms of their “power”.

    Actually I’m strictly a first book only girl. Everything after the first novel falls flat for me.

    I spent pretty much the whole time screaming, “Jessica you nonce!! Take care of your effin’ daughter! Jeez!!”

  191. In another 20 years we might find out:

    – Whatever happened to Tysha?

    – Are all of the horns (dragon binding, wall destroying) just red herrings or do any of them actually do anything?

    – Will LSH do anything other than kill Freys?

    – What’s Jaqen doing in Oldtown? Will FM try to kill dragons or Danaerys with info from Citadel?

    – Will any POV go to the actual Valyria (not the show Valyria which is actually a random ruined city on Rhoyne in ASOIAF)

    – Will Martyn Lannister rule Casterly Rock?

    – What was the point of Gendry (or Edric Storm)? Just to have an heir to Storm’s End?

    – How will F(Aegon) and Dornish alliance all play out? Just a distraction before Danaerys arrives?

    – What’s up with the Val and Gilly baby swap?

    – Do the warlocks of Qarth still have a role to play?

    The good thing about the meh final seasons of GoT that I am excited about books again after having given up on WoW ever coming out a few years ago.

  192. Flora Linden: Except. . .you did take the easy way out. 🤣

    Haha! Yup. Cramming the war with AotD, war with Cersei, Dany turning to “mad queen”, Dany’s murder, Bran becoming king of 6Ks, and many more into 6 episodes looks like taking the easy way out. It seemed like they couldn’t wait to end the whole thing.

  193. Brandon Stark – King of the 6 Kingdoms.
    Sansa Stark – Queen in the North.
    Jon Snow(Aegon Targaryen) – King Beyond the Wall.
    The Starks rule Westeros.

  194. Emily: Actually I’m strictly a first book only girl. Everything after the first novel falls flat for me.

    I spent pretty much the whole time screaming, “Jessica you nonce!! Take care of your effin’ daughter! Jeez!!”

    Oh yes. Jessica is despicable. My goodness. I think the Messiah still appealed to me because I wanted to see how Paul would fare as the ruler of the known universe.

  195. THEmouseKNIGHT:
    In another 20 years we might find out:

    – Whatever happened to Tysha?

    – Are all of the horns (dragon binding, wall destroying) just red herrings or do any of them actually do anything?

    – Will LSH do anything other than kill Freys?

    – What’s Jaqen doing in Oldtown? Will FM try to kill dragons or Danaerys with info from Citadel?

    – Will any POV go to the actual Valyria (not the show Valyria which is actually a random ruined city on Rhoyne in ASOIAF)

    – Will Martyn Lannister rule Casterly Rock?

    – What was the point of Gendry (or Edric Storm)? Just to have an heir to Storm’s End?

    – How will F(Aegon) and Dornish alliance all play out? Just a distraction before Danaerys arrives?

    – What’s up with the Val and Gilly baby swap?

    – Do the warlocks of Qarth still have a role to play?

    The good thing about the meh final seasons of GoT that I am excited about books again after having given up on WoW ever coming out a few years ago.

    You forget Darkstar!

    “I am of the night”

  196. Fog:
    I got the feeling that Bran was manipulating people and events all along. See his lines to Tyrion and Jon in this episode. He always knew what was going to happen.

    Can’t stop thinking of Theon and feeling sorry for him…

    I still need to process everything that happened. After this episode, I certainly will rewatch the show and reread the books to get more hints.

    Yeah, they just elected a boy who might survive for centuries… He can see the past and predict the future. He can see everything and everyone in everywhere, he can anticipate any move from anybody… And he’s now looking for Drogon… If Dany was a danger, than what’s Bran? 😀

    Just kidding… Maybe. 😜

  197. Boojam:
    I like this , Cogman is a very articulate spokesman:

    “I still don’t know how I feel about a lot of what happens this season and I helped write it,” Cogman says. “It’s emotionally very challenging. It’s designed to not feel good. That said, I don’t think that’s a bad thing. The best drama is the type you have to think about. There’s a dangerous tendency right now to make art and popular culture to feel safe for everybody and make everybody feel okay when watching and I don’t believe in that. The show is messy and grey and that’s where it’s always lived — from Jaime pushing a little boy out the window to Ned Stark’s death to the Red Wedding. This is the kind of story that’s meant to unsettle you and challenge you and make you think and question. I think that was George’s intent and what David and Dan wanted to do. However you feel about the final episodes of this show I don’t think anybody will ever accuse us of taking the easy way out.”

    Article here:
    https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/19/game-thrones-finale-interview-emilia-clarke/

    I don’t dislike where the characters ended. It’s how they got there that wasn’t satisfying. Wish they had more time to build up the stories.

  198. Ten Bears,

    Early on, I actually realized that the sole point of the parentage was to confirm that Daenerys’ claim was mistaken. As the Targ succession line was already ended, it would have limited implications for Jon outside of personal understanding. I was sure that they would not go the marriage path with Jon and Daenerys but I was surprised at the rest in terms of a passive submissive Jon, Daenerys the Raving Mad, and other outcomes.

    And of course, TreeBoy as king.

  199. Nina,

    The Starks have always been the main characters. GRRM originally titled the final book A Time For Wolves. I believe this is very close to his ending.

    Arya goes to sea like the Nymeria she named her wolf after, Sansa becomes not just a Lady but the queen she wanted to be, Resurrected Jon is like a walking Ghost living where he was always happiest, Rickon’s story was cut short like a Shaggy Dog story and Bran… I’m trying to tie in his fate to Summer. Bran just out-chessed them all I guess.

    The characters didn’t get the ending we wanted for them but I think they got the ending they needed.

  200. Ser Creighton Longbough: Yeah, they just elected a boy who might survive for centuries… He can see the past and predict the future. He can see everything and everyone in everywhere, he can anticipate any move from anybody… And he’s now looking for Drogon… If Dany was a danger, than what’s Bran?

    Just kidding… Maybe.

    Why does Bran even need a council? To discuss his ideas? With the gap in knowledge, what can they contribute? I suppose the veneer of representation?

  201. Ten Bears: The Northerners either never found out or if they did their responses weren’t deemed important. I kind of wanted to see Jon relieved from his self-loathing as a second-class “bastard” contrasted with his mixed emotions that his life story was a lie, albeit created to protect his life.

    Well put. I very much wanted him to be able to be proud of his parentage, and for the importance of it to be acknowledged by at least those in the North who knew him. While he earned their complete respect on his own, there was always his discomfort with the “bastard” connotation.

    Dany should have known that. I understand why she wanted him to keep quiet in regard to her quest for the throne. It upset me that she told him, ordered him, to can the info and never mention it again. WTF? That’s what “winners” do, right, in our modern definition of the word? Railroad over and downgrade everyone else’s emotional needs in favor of their own? But from the standpoint of their love story, of which I was very much a fan, it stank.

  202. Ten Bears:
    JGillz,

    _____I’m not complaining. Just observing and responding. I too was perplexed by the Jon parentage mystery that pervaded the show since early S1, with so much setup and drama for the ultimate Tower of Joy reveal. I naturally assumed there would be monumental ramifications to that revelation – among his sisters. the Northerners, the entire realm, and Jon’s own self-identity.

    I just assumed there was a perfect setup for “high thread count”™️ interpersonal movements showing the effects of this finally-unveiled secret. But they cut away so we didn’t get the impact on Arya & Sansa. The Northerners either never found out or if they did their responses weren’t deemed important. I kind of wanted to see Jon relieved from his self-loathing as a second-class “bastard” contrasted with his mixed emotions that his life story was a lie, albeit created to protect his life. I also would’ve liked just one or two minutes – maybe with Jaime, who knew Rhaegar – in which Jon asked for a little bit of backstory about his real father and tried to reconcile the false kidnap & rape narrative with the true love & marriage historical facts.

    Maybe it’s just me. Those are thekind of character moments that made the show great. I had a hard time reconciling all of that seven season-long set up just to create a potential roadblock to Dany’s “born to rule” ambition with the appearance of a rival Targ claimant for the throne. I thought at least Jon’s Targ heritage would fulfill some significant prophecy to help save the world; set up his eventual ascension to monarch as a union of North & South families, or at the very least, help him find answers to the questions that plagued him about his mother – the questions Ned (in S1e2?) promised to answer when they saw each other again:

    (S1e2)
    Ned: “…And you are a Stark. You might not have my name, but you have my blood.”
    Jon: “ls my mother alive? Does she know about me? Where l am, where l’m going? Does she care?”
    Ned: “The next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother. Hmm? l promise.”

    ™️ Thronetender

    Very well put. I agree with everything you said. And then in the end they sent him back to CB, a place for “bastards and broken men”, like he’s reduced to being like a bastard again. What a sad fate. But, as I said in the other thread, my interpretation is that Jon in the end escaped the NW and went to live with the free folk for the rest of his life.

  203. I always felt that there would be no Iron Throne at the end. Besides the Stark kids & Jon, I especially wanted Ghost and Drogon to survive. My head canon has always had Drogon laying a clutch of eggs somewhere in the east. I was pleased with representation of Drogon’s intelligence (?) perception (?) psychic abilities (?).

    I always believed Jon would return to the “real” North, and that Arya would go off somewhere. I was murky about Bran & Sansa, but there were enough hints about the best ruler being someone who doesn’t want to rule, and Sansa’s adamant resolution to keep the North independent, that I wasn’t too surprised.

    I enjoyed the tying up of loose ends for the other characters as well, though I’m disappointed we never learned the rest of Tyrion’s brothel joke.

    I’m satisfied.

    Thank you to everyone involved in bringing this site to us, and to all the fans who participate here. I don’t know if anything else will ever draw my interest as much as ASOIAF, but it’s comforting to know I haven’t been alone.

  204. A Dream of Spring doesn’t seem like a fitting title for the final book if George’s ending is very similar to the show’s… Then again, perhaps it’s very fitting and I’ve been considering its meaning too positively and optimistically.

    I personally didn’t get any real optimistic, happy or hopeful feelings from the ending. All of the characters seem to be in very lonely positions with a very bleak immediate future. What the hell is Jon’s life going to be like living in huts on the fringes of the Land of Always Winter? I wanted Arya to sail west of Westeros, but not without a companion. They couldn’t have given her Gendry so there was SOMEthing to feel good about? Sansa gets to be a queen, in the North without any family or friends with her. Enjoy! The rest are stuck trying to piece together a totally destroyed capital and country and only Tyrion has any experience of the group in his/her position. So much for that vineyard, Tyrion.

  205. Dany should have known that. I understand why she wanted him to keep quiet in regard to her quest for the throne. It upset me that she told him, ordered him, to can the info and never mention it again. WTF?That’s what “winners” do, right, in our modern definition of the word? Railroad over and downgrade everyone else’s emotional needs in favor of their own? But from the standpoint of their love story, of which I was very much a fan, it stank.

    and again – We SAW that Danny was right about keeping his Targaryen relation a sectret – if he does not want to take the throne – as it turned out that that exactly this ruined everything. It wasn’t meant selfish in this moment. Why don’t people get that.

  206. Flora Linden: Boojam: Cogman: “I don’t think anybody will ever accuse us of taking the easy way out.”

    Except. . .you did take the easy way out. 🤣

    Glad I cancelled my subscription to Entertainment Weekly.

    More like the expedient way out. Maybe in later years Cogman will explain what the calculation was after 6 (before 6?) that 13 episodes would make a cohesive story narrative. Or at least why all the seams in S8.

  207. Mango,

    I know. Something can be “messy and grey” and still make sense. I’ve seen plenty of films that depart from the standard formulae and yet have their own internal logic. Or, there are films that follow a predictable plot and yet are a joy to watch.

    I hope Cogman isn’t using “messy and grey” to mean “carelessly constructed and confusing,”

    (As you know, for me GoT = A Song of Arya and Sandor. With two minor exceptions all of their scenes and stories are just fine.)

  208. Thank you all for this awesome site. It helped me so much during the run of GoT ! You all rock! I had no issues with season 8 and I loved the finale seems like most people I talk to felt the same way. It was a great run and now I can’t wait for prequel! By the way there are lots of opportunities for a sequel as well!

    Long live Bran the Broken!
    Jon being happy with Ghost and Thurmond.
    Daenerys paying for her horrible actions.
    Love the new small council.
    Drogon lives!
    Sansa queen of the North!
    Arya on adventures!
    Brienne finishing Jamie’s page of accomplishments (FU Joffrey)
    Tryion can’t avoid being hand.
    Pod is a Knight!!! Go Pod.
    Bronn got his darn castle!
    Drogon finally got rid of that darn uncomfortable chair.

  209. Ten Bears:
    Mango,

    I know. Something can be “messy and grey” and still make sense. I’ve seen plenty of films that depart from the standard formulae and yet have their own internal logic. Or, there are films that follow a predictable plot and yet are a joy to watch.

    I hope Cogman isn’t using “messy and grey” to mean “carelessly constructed and confusing,”

    (As you know, for me GoT = A Song of Arya and Sandor. With two minor exceptionsall of theirscenes and stories are just fine.)

    Fully agree! Sense, all we want is sense. Maybe because Cogman’s episode was well-received, he is out helping to put out the fire.

    And yes, I am happy for Arya’s story. I am an Arya fan although she was not my top person. Sansa did ok too. My top peeps were mostly dismantled and sold out as scrap. But beyond the individual stories – the whole thing just lacked internal logic.

  210. Trivia note:
    After 5 episodes of fairly minimal spoken Valyrian and Dothraki, Dany gets a fairly long dialog in both languages. David J. Peterson got some work this episode, looking for his observations.

  211. Nkforever:
    Lol I didn’t realize the fact that House Stark is doomed.

    There is no Stark cousins Sansa can marry to. She will be the last Stark un Invernalia

    Do not underestimate Grand Maester Samwell Tarley, MD. If he can cure greyscale by reading an instruction manual, surely he can come up with a way to cure Bran’s E.D. or whatever it takes to enable paraplegics to father children.

    Alternatively- like every other “tradition”, they can just change the rules and allow women to pass on the family name.

    PS Just realized …. We were spared baby dramas!!! No Tyvek Lannister. No Visenya Targaryen. No Eddard Baratheon.

  212. The imagery was haunting and beautiful.
    The final council had 3 of the most honorable people in the series-Davos, Brienne and Sam, which made me happy.
    Brienne filled out the book. Sob.
    Drogon was best actor and smartest via throne. Ghost got pets.
    All good things.
    The acting and music and cinematography was stunning
    The editing (coffee cup, water bottle, darkness) not so much this year lol
    Knight of the Seven Kingdoms still my favorite episode of this season.

    But I’m sorry, Jon’s character was completely destroyed. He killed his love, but only after a long damn struggle and a season full of being used as a monosyllabic plot device. What he’d seen, the horror, and what she said obviously wasn’t enough to remind him who he was. His life being in danger wasn’t enough. Tyrion had to mention his sisters and she had to go full make the world Utopia by killing everyone. I get that it was hard-but surely he could see what happened and do the math himself, right?
    And wtf did Kit do to these writers to get them to not only shrink his lines to such a degree but also take away every potential fight scene he could have had, when that was his strength? Something, is the answer. We’ll probably never know.

    Let’s mention his sisters. They were picking a king so Jon’s life could be spared. So an authority could deal with Grey Worm (who was there for weeks and what, convened a council instead of just killing Jon and Tyrion after Dany was murdered?)

    So they’re voting, and Sansa did say she wanted Jon freed, but then she stopped roll call, looked at Bran and said, “I’m gonna let you finish, but first I really think I should be queen of something. It’s all I’ve ever wanted. Give me the North.”
    And he nods-even though we all know he knows everything…

    AND THEN Yara and the guy from Dorne have no problem with that? They don’t say, “Oh yeah, me too. We never liked centralized rule anyway? Remember all those wars we had about it?”

    Nope. Just Sansa.

    Maybe Bran saw all the possible futures where he didn’t give it to her and she went completely LF and figured it was the easiest way to keep the peace?
    Oh and Brienne who was the only one she trusted stayed in KL-which I’m okay with-but no one talked about it.

    Not a lot of talking between characters at all really, though I appreciate Tyrion’s mansplaining to the audience about why Dany was a danger.

    And Tyrion was cursed/blessed by doing the only thing he was ever good at, being Hand of KL. With bad influence Bronn at his side and the honeycomb jackass joke left unfinished.

    Gendry was just a smiling vote for king.
    I was really hoping he’d go sailing with Arya.
    Nope. Not a single ship to be found. They burned them all or sent them West.

    Also just for the record? All the actors and writers who said this episode would answer all questions and close the story for good were liars.
    That episode launched a million fan fics and kept tons of plates spinning unattended in the air.
    I have so many questions
    Like does the story being closed for good just mean the throne is gone and none of the main characters are going to have children or true happiness in their future, beyond the Starks being in charge of everything?
    Yes George, a Time for Wolves would have been a spoiler 🙂

    Tyrion crying over his siblings, Dany reenacting her house of the Undying visions and her wings, and Jon smiling at Ghost were the best parts of the episode.
    Also seeing green shoots and melting ice North of the Wall.

    Honestly the way everyone treated him and lied to him and used him in Westeros, including the old gods and Lord of Light, he’s going to have a better life there, so screw em.

    I’m not sure how I feel right now, after all these years. I still stand behind the fact that Dany did too fast a turn around, that fighting Cersei and WW and Dany in one super short season was just too much at once, and detrimental to the ending. Even if we were going to get there eventually.

    And Sansa… sigh

    Also the lack of Bran dialogue or visions was such a waste. And the lack of importance on all the things we thought were important. And Jon being the only one sent away again like a bastard kept isolated at a party for a king ala season 1.
    He did what Jaime did, but he was actually saving the world again instead of just KL.
    Doesn’t matter.
    And Sam didn’t even argue, though he was all “You should be king, Jon!”
    Plus they didn’t get to see each other and we just have to assume him being a maester doesn’t mean he dumped Sam and Gilly, because Sam is such a rebel.

    But its over now, and it could have been worse so…
    Or is it?
    All seeing, all knowing 3ER as king is just kind of asking for trouble.
    “Crows are all liars” as Nan used to say.
    cue ominous music

  213. Tormund only liked Brienne because she was big and mannish.
    Now he’s got pretty little Jon-Aegon to be his butt-boy forever.
    Me, I call that a happy ending.
    Call me homonormative. See if I care.

  214. Inga,

    So, I dare to make an educated prediction that in a year from now everyone in Westeros will be at each other’s throat;

    I’m quite surprised that Dorne and the Iron Islands agreed to let go of their independence, particularly after the North was granted its independence.

    As for the North, I’m reminded of the whiplash I felt between S6E10 and early S7. The last episode of S6, there was this triumphant declaration of Jon as King in the North. By the end of the first few episodes of S7, it was quite clear that the loyalty of the Northern lords was not reliable and that Sansa was quite willing to publicly undermine her brother. Now that the AotD is presumably obliterated forever, there’s even less to hold those vassal lords to House Stark.

    Bran seemed to know everything that was going to happen, and let it happen anyway. He contributed only limited, specific information to secure the outcomes of the Long Night as well as the power struggle thereafter( which put him on the throne). I won’t be doing any in depth rewatches, but it would be interesting to see how his conversations with Sam, Jon, Theon, and Tyrion this season(as well as his saying to Jon that he[Jon} was ‘exactly where he needed to be’ in the final episode) will sound in hindsight.

    Still good with Ghost and Jon getting to shrug the NW/7 kingdoms off their shoulders and head beyond the Wall even though it’ll be a harsh existence. Glad the Unsullied get to seek out Naath. I assume they’ll be okay since Missandei didn’t mention the butterfly fever to GreyWorm when they discussed Naath in episode 2. Still wish Theon had opted to go back to the Iron Islands with his sister. Still sad about Dany, but in my head canon she’s been resurrected and is hanging out in Valyria with Drogon.

  215. was it rushed, absolutely.

    Did it still deliver, in my opinion, yes it did.

    I wish we could’ve had 7-8 episodes this season but that ain’t happening so I’ll take what we got.

    Can someone clear it up for me, was it actually snowing in King’s Landing (after the NK is gone) or was all that ash?

    Cause the scene where Dany’s bigarse banner is up and Drogon is chilling on the wall it looks like white fluffy snow?

    I loved Drogon this ep and am actually glad he flew off to live his life hunting goats.

    Tyrion finally had some crucial/well acted scenes. I do chuckle this guy is like an NFL coach, get fired/suck at a few jobs but offers keep pouring in.

    Arya’s line about I know how to identify a killer 😨

    good Ol Ghost, finally getting some love.

    Not thrilled about how Bron’s story wrapped up but oh well, H20 under the bridge

    SUE, A BIG OL THANK YOU TO YOU AND OTHERS FOR THIS SITE 💪

  216. I really hope Factory Entertainment does a replica of Sansa’s crown – I know Cersei’s crown is being released in July and it’s not much different. So hopefully they do Sansa’s crown too cuz I would wear that daily
    On a side note – it’s sad we never got a Targaryen crown – you’d think Dany has been moving around with all these giant banners and been queen for 2 seasons now she’d have had a crown made but nope – not that it mattered for the story being told but I’d have liked a Targaryen crown replica too

  217. Sean C.,

    Did you ever think about earlier in the series and books? She has a fascination with Nymeria (hence why she named her dire wolf after her). Makes a full circle to have her sail off and not know what is waiting for her, just like Nymeria.

  218. Inga:
    Steel_Wind,

    But Jon’s role in the war against the AOTD was just creating a diversion, so that Arya could get her moment with the NK. He could have done that with a smaller army; Dany and her dragons we not even necessary, etc. So, it’s really a lame storytelling.

    No. He brought together -with assists from Sansa, Tyrion, Tormund and Davos- the North, the NW, the Free Folk and team Targ to combat the AOTD. Without this alliance, they would not have had the numbers and the literal firepower to hold off the wights long enough for the NK to be taken out. Just because neither Jon or Dany did every little thing by his or her self, doesn’t mean they weren’t crucial.

  219. So… this was it. That was quite a journey. My feelings for now are that season 8 had some great moments, (I think that both the Long Night and The Bells are beautiful episodes in isolation) but I think the overall narrative suffered by the absence of the books and the idea that it was possible to wrap up this story in just 13 episodes. Maybe 1 or 2 seasons extra (and maybe more writers and a consultant that is specialized in history and battle strategies in particular) could have made it better but I am satisfied with what we have. My idea of what the books were about (in very broad strokes) was that striving for power corrupts people, which leads to suffering amongst the common people and that the Throne should therefore be destroyed and that the answer to ‘’Who should sit on the Iron Throne?’’ should be no one, because no person, even if their intentions are initially good, can handle that kind of power. The ending of the show sort of got that essence, but I have to be honest: the execution could have been better. I still however liked the final episode and especially the ending scenes with the Starks, Drogon burning the Throne and flying away with Daenerys and the opening scenes with Tyrion.

    Game of Thrones will always have a special place in my heart. I discovered the series in the first year I started with my Bachelor and it ends while I am busy finishing my Master this summer. I have made friends and even met my boyfriend by organizing GOT events.

    So yeah, it was quite a journey and I want to thank the people behind this site for making it and all the interesting articles they put on it. I also want to thank all the people involved in the making of GOT… even though it was not perfect, all the behind the scenes stuff shows how much work and love was put in making this show.

    p.s. An interesting article I found that gives some interesting insights: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/
    p.p.s. For all the fans that signed that stupid petition and writing overblown reactions (really…. I saw some people use the word ”rape” to describe their reactions….): may I recommend the book Misery by Stephen King

  220. I think what they did here is reverse Tolkien’s dissolution of magic. G. Martin was addressing in an interview the role of magic in fantasy novels, argumenting how one should use it with maximum caution. He was saying that in his books there is very little magic at the beginning and much more at the end but still less than in other novels. In Tolkien’s world magic dissappears with the last of the elves that embark on one last journey at the Grey Havens. The age of Men is beginning and all creatures of magic sail away or eventually fade.

    I think GoT gradually brings back magical elements, it starts with very little, the hint at the existence of White Walkers, and gradually builds up to a magical creature rulling over the 6 kingdoms of Westeros. I don’t think what Bran symbolizes is a Dune type of tyrant. I think he is the last remaining magical element from the age of the Children of the Forrest, before they were destroyed by men’s greed and lust of power. Children of the Forrest were, in lack of a better word, ecological creatures, protecting nature and living in harmony. With Bran becoming a ruler, I think they tried to bring back some elements from a Lost Paradise. Remember Tolkien wrote, I don’t remember the exact words, but something similar to the fact that every myth starts with a fall from Paradise. I believe GoT, always famous for the nihilism, really tried to build a returning to paradise in the background and it became visible at the end. But it was always there. Of course, because of the many problems of the past season especially (I am not going to count them over and over again) it wasn’t built up properly. But it gave a very interesting resolution.

    And of course they have to tie these elements together because a prequel will be made, which will be set thousands of years before Robert ‘s Rebellion and it will probably deliver more in depth information about the magical creatures that once lived in Westeros.

  221. Wow! I knew there would be much commentary. So adding mine…

    Yes. Two more 10 epidode seasons would have been my preference. That said, I think D&D D a fantastic job. Blame HBO, not the show runners.

    Crazy Targaryen? Nope, just power mad. Absolute power, etc. We saw it coming, but we didn’t want to admit it, because. DT killed ‘bad guys”. (But even bad guys have people who love them – even Euron, I suppose.)

    Good finale moments:. Tyrion coming to grips with hubris. Drogon! Sansa getting a crown for all the right reasons and Arya achieving her dreams of exploration.
    I am also all in on King Bran and his reluctant new Hand. They’ll be fine – like the chemistry with the whole Small Council – GOT, “The Westeros Wing”.

    Best moment for me was Brienne completing Jamie’s story in the Big Book of Knights. I never liked Jamie much, but I love Brienne, so respect! Dratted Onion Knight was peeling overtime!

    Special award to Sam for proposing an electoral system. (Yeah… THAT works…) and good old Edd Tulley’s council — after all he’s been through, he’s still a doofus.

    My Meh moments? Derp face Robyn Arryn (sic) and Dornish Prince Whosit, first of his name. (No introduction whatsoever, but he gets credit for the best bathrobe ever!). Jon back at the Wall with Tormund and Ghost. I said last week he should go back North and open a microbrewery with Big Red and I (kinda) nailed it!

    So happy trails and congrats Stark fam, you won the GOT! Hard cheese to the rest! And at least GOT ended without onion rings and a fade to Black.

    See ya at the prequel!

  222. I liked Sam’s presentation of the book “A Song of Ice and Fire”, it’s clear that Sam is GRRMs avatar in the books after all. Wouldn’t surprise me at all to see Sam starting to write this legendary tome near the end of ADoS.

  223. Ten Bears: Do not underestimate Grand Maester Samwell Tarley, MD. If he can cure greyscale by reading an instruction manual, surely he can come up with a way to cure Bran’s E.D. or whatever it takes to enable paraplegics to father children.

    Alternatively- like every other “tradition”, they can just change the rules and allow women to pass on the family name.

    PS Just realized …. We were spared baby dramas!!! No Tyvek Lannister. No Visenya Targaryen. No Eddard Baratheon.

    Phew! I didn’t think we’d see a baby born this season (due to how small they made travelling distances in GOT compared with ASOIAF) unless we had a time jump, but I was expecting someone to get pregnant. Nope. What we saw as foreshadowing for Dany getting pregnant may have been some kind of nod to her finding out she had other family out there already: i.e. AeJon.

    Jon may still get to give Longclaw to his children. In my headcanon, he lives a happy life with his Wildling family, marries a wildling woman called Val and has children who ride around on Ghost like a pony when they’re tiny. That’ll be my new overly sickly-sweet only-in-my-head happy end-shot – Jon and his wildling wife Val, laughing in their hut as they watch toddler Sam riding around on Ghost as he tells the older kids, Arya and Robb a fairytale about an epic battle between the dead and the living in a land far, far away.

  224. Che:

    Jon may still get to give Longclaw to his children. In my headcanon, he lives a happy life with his Wildling family, marries a wildling woman called Val and has children who ride around on Ghost like a pony when they’re tiny. That’ll be my new overly sickly-sweet only-in-my-head happy end-shot – Jon and his wildling wife Val, laughing in their hut as they watch toddler Sam riding around on Ghost as he tells the older kids, Arya and Robb a fairytale about an epic battle between the dead and the living in a land far, far away.

    I accept this reality.

  225. Making the 8,

    Completely agree.

    I think it was an epic series overall. Daenerys’ story has not been about madness but the corruption of power. She wasn’t ‘mad’; she made choices and removed those from others – something reflective of many leaders in history, past and present. Grey Worm did not kill Jon because that wasn’t his decision to make. I certainly wished there were three more episodes but I get the logic of the finale. Drogon’s grief was heartbreaking because we forget that dragons are immensely intelligent and he melts the one thing in the world that killed his siblings and his mother. Arya was never going to stay. Sansa graduates and maneuvers herself as Queen. Jon is a wildling, a free folk and the new King Beyond The Wall. The results are unexpected and Bran as Constitutional Monarch of the South is surprising, but also strangely satisfying. The wheel is broken. I suspect many people are pissed because 1) the result was not fan service 2) the show may become canon, because GRRM may never finish the books.

    His Dark Materials and Philip Pullman are one of my favorite series / author of all time. Enjoyed the Golden Compass, too, though it could have been less Disneyesque, so I’m excited to see how HBO/BBC adapted the books now that they’re freer to do so without fear of faux religious outrage and box office.

  226. Ser Creighton Longbough: Yeah, they just elected a boy who might survive for centuries… He can see the past and predict the future. He can see everything and everyone in everywhere, he can anticipate any move from anybody… And he’s now looking for Drogon… If Dany was a danger, than what’s Bran? 😀

    Just kidding… Maybe. 😜

    Which is why there’s a dark undertone to the “Disney” and “fanservice” ending everyone is complaining about. I don’t think this was ever meant to be or sold as a happily ever after. People are just choosing to perceive it that way. It could be that Westeros is taking baby steps towards democracy which was my initial reaction. It could also be that the Bran is the NK theories weren’t too far off after all. There are still many possible futures. It will depend on the choices people make. Just like real life.

  227. I have to say the direction from D&D was superb and the finale as a whole was very good. Below the parts I loved and my minor criticisms:
    – I loved seeing the horror Dany had caused this was realism and they were not holding back at all. The cinematography was amazing and seeing Greyworm execute prisoners reminded me of so many well praised war films, he’s lost it now and a full on villain, you hope Jon intervenes and kills him but the Unsullied would slaughter him and Davos if he does.
    – Danys Mad Queen speech on the steps is well done, it kind of reminded me of Stars wars and the first order but my mind kept thinking where did she spawn those Dothraki and Unsullied from. It’s clear and sinister though that she is the final villain of the series and she going to kill Sansa.
    – Tyrion scenes here are superb from the horror of finding his siblings to throwing the hand badge to the floor and finally convincing Jon he must save the realm from Tyronny. I genuinely feared he would be executed so the scenes were tense and well done.
    – at this point everything was more or less perfect (the spawning Dothraki aside) then Jon kills Dany and something felt hollow. I expected more here, Emilia has been wonderful this season but I would have liked to have seen her death scene carry more weight rather than just stabbed in the heart whilst kissing. I didn’t think it was bad just not perfect.
    – then the time jump, why are the Unsullied keeping Tyrion and Jon prisoner, I didn’t really get this part. He brings Tyrion for justice but not Jon? I felt some confusion with how this played out to be honest but didn’t hate it out right. Also why is Yara showing loyalty to Dany whilst sitting with the other lords of Westeros? Again minor point, I loved Arya threatening to slit her throat for it but Yara is a character I generally like so it felt out of place. Also who are the lords with Robin Arryn and Edmure? I didn’t recognise them.
    – I loved the Brienne writing Jamie’s deeds in the book, I fully expected this to happen though.
    – bran is made king and seemingly knew it was coming, no complaints from me although Jon was best it sort of made sense. That said, it begs some questions about Bran as he clearly knew it was coming so what else did he know?
    – small council scenes were good but Bronn felt out of place. Sam writing the ASoif book was a nice touch but now he is a Maester can be marry Gilly?
    – the endings for the Stark girls were predictable. Arya is my second fave character and she ended as expected. Sansa is not a character I like but she has been heading this way since season 6 so it makes sense.
    – Jon I am sad is not king but it’s about as happy an ending he could have given the circumstances so I am fine with that too.

  228. Long time reader, first time commenter. I would start with the logical: Danny killed by Jon. There was no other solution to stop her, and Jon was the only on who could get close enough to her to do the deed. Everything else went down the slope from there. The fact that the GreyWorm was allowed to leave the place after being equally murdeorous as Danny it was a travesty. The idea of a new wheel, with a king elected by the noblemen, headed by the supposedly all knowing Bram, was also bs. It is a matter of time before another house will start jockeying for the throne, and another one, and so forth. Historically speaking this was a recipe for wars and disaster. Not to mention the council. Tyrion has proved more than once to choose the wrong side, Bronn has no problem in betraying a king if the price is right. One could argue that almost everybody got what they wanted in the GOT universe. Sansa became a queen, Bran a king and ruler, Sam a meister, Brienne a king’s guard, Jon a free man, and so forth. But the final defies logic, and shows poor understanding of the fandom and lack of respect for the viewers. The whole season was rushed. The characters became caricatures of themselves. For me personally, and I am sure I speak for many viewers, the ending was rushed, the final settlement was clumsy and uninspiring, and let the door open for a sequel to tie the loose ends, and put a new dynasty on the Westeros throne. At least this is my hope.

  229. Tresha of Tarth: Two more 10 epidode seasons would have been my preference. That said, I think D&D D a fantastic job. Blame HBO, not the show runners.

    For anyone complaining about the shorter seasons / quick ending they CAN blame D&D for it over HBO though. Prior to S7 HBO made it well known that they were wanting more episodes & seasons of GoT but D&D said they only needed about 13-14 hours to complete the story. HBO acquiesced to them on their schedule and started planning for new series ideas in that world instead.

    The desire for more has been and always will be there, but we also know that things often go bad with that route as well; losing quality due to stretching out the story, losing main cast members, etc. If they had decided to do more GoT I think it would have had to be a minimal amount more.

  230. A lot of discussion about prophecy fulfilment and visions no doubt. One of the possibilities is that GRRM is not concerned so much about the fulfilment of prophecy, so much as how much a character believes in a prophecy and how that influences their actions. We don’t have to believe it but we have to believe the character believes it.

  231. Thank you, Watchers. It’s been a pleasure. You kept me sane in the long gaps between seasons and gave me a community of like-minded people with whom I could share my joy and (quite often) frustrated rants. I have enjoyed the theories, the debates, the analyses, our shared angst at the decision of our characters, our collective happiness when they did well and lived and the fear we shared for them in various battles but especially, in the Long Night.

    I have loved that many of you challenged me to look at certain scenes differently and helped me notice things I otherwise wouldn’t have. I love that there were things I learnt from you and I was able to gain a new perspective. I love the hard work the site runners have put into giving us quality content and in giving us a place to express our dedication to a show we all love so much. I will miss this a lot.

    #and now our watch has ended

  232. Clob,

    I guess HBO will have to find new producers if they want more of GOT, and want a sequel for the so called final that will take place lets say in 10-15 years from the time of the current events. And the more I think the more I believe that a sequel is an absolute necessity. Which will give them the opportunity to hire new actors and to bring a new production team on board.

  233. S1-6: 76 nude scenes
    S7 & 8: 8 nude scenes

    I think it is fairly obvious why the show had declined in quality.

  234. Tbh, I’m wondering what I just watched. I accidently read the ‘leaks’ last week and still I cannot fathom that episode.

    Why did Tyrion have to explain to Jon why Dany had to die? Practically, goad him into it? While Jon loves Dany, his spiel aboput ‘she’s our queen’ felt so wrong. Jon would have instantly known that she had to go and, yes, he would be in turmoil but he just appeared like a loyal lap dog (like most of the season, tbh).

    The Dany death scene was ok and expected. I expected her die before I read the spoilers. Drogon burning everything was good and I saw the emotion on the dragon. A good scene to finish Dany, I felt, but it could have been bigger. I just wish Jon had died there in the dragonfire.

    The whole trial thing did not make sense. Grey Worm would have killed Tyrion and Jon rather than wait for the ‘council’ which apparently took two weeks. Why was only Tyrion tried? Jon had no chance to defend himself or a trial?

    Suddenly, they listen to Tyrion and the charcter who has shown zero leadership qualities (barring the bit before he became 3ER) is elected king? The person who couldn’t be ‘lord of anything’, ‘lives mostly in the past’ and has zero connection with the people he’s supposed to rule?

    Sansa asks for independence which is not necessary when a Northerner, her brother, has been voted king. The Northerners didn’t like being ruled by outsiders but now one of them rules? Why was Jon’s heritage not even mentioned? Tyrion becomes ‘Hand’ (again). Davos corrects grammar.

    Jon was sent away to appease Grey Worm (who would have killed him anyway) but GW then goes across the sea so what does it matter?

    I find Jon’s end very sad. Back where he started as a punishment for saving them all from a tyrant. I could have liked that ending if Jon had chosen it himself and said fuck the throne. Only highlight was that he saw Ghost and petted him!

    The ending montage with Brienne filling in the LC book was ok, Bronn as master of coin is daft. Sam becomes Grand Maester even though he barely trained and now can never marry Gilly so his child is a bastard. Tormund says nothing. Arya goes west (fair enough).

    For the last episode, I found it very disappointing mainly because of the Bran being king. He’s been practically useless and has never led anybody. Honestly, not an episode I will watch very often. ‘Winds of Winter’ will always be miles above it.

  235. Inga,

    I so totally agree!!!! It’s as if they picked up from the internet the theories they liked best for the ending –Martin going all “yes, that one lives, that one doesn’t”. LOL forever. What a bad, unrealistic ending!

  236. Thank you RG, couldn’t have said it better. “All crows ARE liars”, and now we know. I’m just heartbroken over what they did with Jon and Daeny’s character, so I made up my own ending, what does it matter now? I do feel so disappointed by what the writers did, but it is what it is. Hopefully Mr. Martin will finish the books better.

  237. Team Targaryan,

    I’m glad I’m not the only one disappointed. If that is where George is going then it really needed far more to suggest it in the show. I was going to read the books but I won’t bother now.

    I’m writing a fanfic so I can make up my own ending! I just have to get there first. LOL.

  238. Steel_Wind: That was the worst “reward” of all to poor Ser Podrick. The knighthood was deserved. But Pod was condemned to take the oath of celibacy of the Kingsguard. The greatest lover of women in the Seven Kingdoms. He left the feast hall with TWO in Ep 4!

    The whores will be weeping all the way to Dorne.

    Note: Did Daniel Portman have a single line — One. Single. Word. — spoken to the cameras in Season 8? I think the answer is “no”. He was an extra with a name all season long. Not sure if that was some legal muckety-muckgoing on with that decision or not.

    He sang

  239. Ghostgirl,

    This pretty much sums up my feelings. I didn’t have a huge problem with most of the endings, though the way it happened was wonky. But I will never get over Bran being king. “Who has a better story than Bran The Broken?” Oh, I can think of quite a few.

    As I said last night, there is no way George gets 10 year old Bran who is stuck under a tree to being king in 2 books. Not unless he rushes things like the show did. That sealed it for me. We are never getting an ending to the books. And I’m not satisfied with the show’s version. But I wasn’t really expecting to be, even though I enjoyed this season more than most.

    Oh well. I’ll choose to remember the good times. It was still an enjoyable ride.

  240. The last episode set a new low for this show. Didn’t think it was possible. What a travesty! Thank God it’s over! They destroyed everything that was good in the show. Every character, even Drogon! What does he know what the IT is? I thought he would start speaking or something! Burn Jon and at least make it a tragedy. Make their arcs mirror until the very end as they’ve been doing ever since the beginning. You would have saved something of this story. But, no it wasn’t meant to be.

    This was such a Frankenstein episode. We have a parody of a Great council down in KL and a completely different sinister coronation for the Queen in the North. As if they took it from the “Elizabeth” movie. It as if one is taking place in in our time and the other in the Middle ages. It felt so off!

  241. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I agree. I mostly enjoyed the season. I wasn’t surprised when Dany went nuts etc and ‘enjoyed’ it for the violent yet somewhat magnificent sequence that it was. Some things, Jon especially, have annoyed me as he didn’t DO anything but I suppose killing Dany was big. His parentage came to nothing and I feel we could have come to the same place with him just being Ned Stark’s bastard. It only seemed to be a tool to make Dany paranoid.

    I feel George just said, ‘well Bran rules’ and they had no idea how to get there. I could have taken it if Bran had become Lord of Winterfell and was actually shown ruling and using his powers to help. I am also very biased as Bran and his story is the storyline that bored me the most, so that’s perhaps why I’m so pissed.

    Seasons 1-6 I liked but tbh, seasons 7 & 8 are not going to be high on my rewatch list.

  242. Milutin,

    Ask England how breaking from the union is going? I’m sure Tha Norf is going to enjoy all those tariffs from the remaining 6 kingdoms. One side bit on that. Wasn’t Dorne the last one that joined as part of the 7 kingdoms. Surprised they didn’t want out too.

  243. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I haven’t made it through the thread yet, so apologies if someone else has already responded: Yes, “the emotionless cyborg.” That’s precisely the point. All the rulers and aspiring rulers we’ve seen are governed far more by emotion and appetite than anything else. I forget his exact words, but on more than one occasion Varys countered a eunuch joke by stating that the absence of desire left him free to pursue other things. By his own admission, Bran doesn’t “really want anymore.” Or as Saner Half put it last night, “He’s a perfect Vulcan.” Who better to lead?

  244. Chilli:
    Thank you Sue and everyone here at Watchers on The Wall. I have loved coming here the past so many years. It was a great place to discuss the show with so many fellow watchers. A lot of different opinions, but that made it more interesting. I learn a great deal here. Thank you!
    The past years I checked this site several days a week. I will do so for the next days, but after that it’ll be a lot less. I don’t know if I’ll watch the prequels. For me Game of Thrones ended here. And I loved every minute of the ride. But now it’s time to move on.

    I would echo this, I plan to check in occasionally and will also read the Dunk and Egg novels this summer, I’ve not yet made my mind up on the prequels so will see how that goes but otherwise full praise to the regular contributors and writers on Watchers, it’s been a huge pleasure these last few years.

  245. Mango,

    Thank you Mango. Yuo are a true friend:) I won’t use the r word again, if it offends so many people, but I won’t use “traumatic” either. I’ll reserve it for serious things. But anyway, thank you once again for being a true gentelman (I hope that’s not offensive;).

  246. Another thought. Is Bran the evil puppeteer of this story? Is this why he insisted on telling Jon his parentage so that he can destroy him and Daenerys and take the throne? What does his words to Jon in the end mean how Jon was in exactly the right place – so that I could screw you and become a king? I don’t get this at all.

  247. Mango: I have had HBO for close to 20 years. Maybe it is time for change – lots of new providers have come in since then. I will look around. I have only been watching GOT and My Brilliant Friend – so maybe the timing is opportune.

    If you’re willing to read English subtitles, you could try these dramas. They’re well worth watching.

    “Story of Yanxi Palace” for court intrigue/backstabbing

  248. Quinton O’Connor:
    Quite possibly the greatest television series of all time.

    For me it’s the best of all time, I prefer it the Sopranos and Breaking Bad both of which I really enjoyed and are widely considered it’s only real rivals for such an accolade.

  249. Pigeon:
    Upon rewatch, I have upgraded my rating from 6 to 7/10 based on Jon and Arya’s farewell scene alone. Maisie Williams and her damn expressive face, and the bond those 2 have (the mention of Needle again), just obliterate me.

    I have upgraded every episode this season rewatch and had the finale as 9/10 first watch:-D

  250. Some appreciation for Rickard Stark, a Stark with Southron ambitions or so we are told. In life every action has repercussions that may take forever to unfold. Let’s take a quick look at how in a way Rickard’s choice to foster alliances with Southern kingdoms and look beyond the isolationist tradition of the North paid off:

    -Brokered an alliance with the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands by marrying a Stark son with a Tully daughter. Ned had to take over for Brandon but the marriage pact was completed.
    -Sent a young son to be foster with the Lord Paramount of the Vale. This created a strong bond of friendship with Lord Arryn and Lord Baratheon.
    -Brokered an alliance with the Lord Paramount of Stormlands by wanting to marry the Baratheon heir to a Stark daughter.

    Now Lord Rickard could not have imagined the turn of events that were set in motion when his 15 year old daughter was wooed by the 20-something crowned prince. However, regardless of whether he was able to achieve what he set out to, the alliances brokered ensured that his grandkids had the allies required to survive the subsequent wars. Just look at who was seated in the council:

    -Lord Edmure Tully, uncle to the Stark children.
    -Lord Robyn Arryn, cousin to the Stark children.
    -Lord Rhoyce – knew and loved Ned Stark well, wanted to call the banners for Robb and then decided to support Sansa.
    -Lord Gendry Baratheon – son of Ned Stark’s best friend. Friends/in love with Arya Stark.

    On top of that, you add the remaining Stark children, Ser Davos and Lord Tarly. Jon was never going to be executed and Tyrion knew that no one would object to a Stark taking a turn at ruling the kingdoms. In the end, the Starks survived better than most, despite the near annihilation of their House, due in part because of the strong foundation provided by a good patriarch (Ned) who drilled into them the importance of unity and accountability, the good will built overtime by said patriarch and the alliances begun long ago by a grandfather they never met.

  251. Ten Bears:
    One thing I didn’t understand: I thought Jon was “sentenced” to the NW af the Wall, and yet, at the end he seems to be riding off to Wildlingville with Tormund, Ghost and a bunch of wildling kids.

    PS Now we know why Sansa’s storyboard gift was of her last scene. QitN!

    Bran essentially freed Jon, and appeased GW, neither Bran, Tyrion or anyone else care if he went with Tormand and Wildlings.
    No doubt Bran and Sansa will make sure he’s safe, he’s family.

  252. Kyle14:
    Im laughing at the overwhelming love for this ending on this site. I thought this was where the smart fans are? Anyone that criticizes the ending on here are trashed thoroughly. Incredible. In my terrible awful horrible opinion I’ll be forgetting about everything after The Winds of Winter 6×10.

    The reception by critics and social media has been overwhelmingly postive too or are you overlooking that? The only negativity I have seen is from yeahclarke who has got a little unhinged and throwing hate towards Jon Snow and the show runners for sexism because Dany died.

  253. Boojam: Was hoping Meera Reed would be in that last scene with Sansa even if she didn’t say anything , an engaging character who just disappears.
    On Jon’s journey north a brief stop at that tavern wordless encounter with Hot Pie.

    Would have loved Meera swearing their oath to Sansa, if Sansa is Queen in book, I hope we get that scene.
    I’m just going to assume Hotpie gave Jon a good meal.

  254. Ghostgirl,

    I’m also writing a fanfiction. I guess many others are doing the same. It would be interesting to read all those fanfictions. Maybe, the mods could arrange a separate thread for that? Would be fun.

  255. Jon Snowed: The reception by critics and social media has been overwhelmingly postive too or are you overlooking that?

    I was on Twitter following the main hashtag for much of the night, and I would say the sentiment was about 50-50, love or hate. Not a lot of hate for the conclusion, but plenty for the journey that got us there.

    Among my irl friends and connections, the disappointment has been pretty universal.

    Me, I think it’s the best show ever, but the last two seasons could have been much better (especially if there had been a third season) and I think the criticism about journey vs destination is legit. It’s still better than anything else on TV.

  256. Inga,

    Exactly! We had one living child born during 8 seasons to named characters (Gilly’s little Sam – born of father-daughter incest) and Edmure’s off-screen child conceived during the massive slaughter that was Red Wedding. There’s not a hint of any of these young surviving adults going in the direction of having a functional family. If that isn’t nihilism and having literally no future at all, I don’t know what is.

  257. Inga,

    Yeah. That would be interesting to see everyone’s ideas. I kinda lost my mojo as the season approached but now I want to get back and write what I wanted to see and expected to see. Let’s just say, Bran will be nowhere near a thone in my version!

  258. Mediumsizedfolk:

    To me, this season, and the last episode in particular, felt like watching a theatre play in Braavos, akin to those Arya watched in season 5…

    Unfortunately, this sums it all up.

  259. Ginevra: Ironically, any army that conquered the Unsullied would be equally justified in slitting Grey Worm’s throat for his free choice in following the Mad Queen, helping to mass-murder King’s Landing.Using that logic, all men must die.

    Yes!Dany, the Great Liberator.Liberator of life, that is.I can just imagine her cooing, as she slits a baby’s throat, “Don’t you feel liberated now, my love?And now, let me go liberate the whole world, just as I liberated King’s Landing!!!!”

    The Night’s Watch was founded at just such a time as this, after the first Long Night ended and all of the Others and wights had died out.They built the Wall for future protection, and the Wall did help stave off destruction until they could amass an army to fight them.

    Robin Arryn!I knew I was supposed to recognize more of the crew than I did, but how did I miss that the foppish idiot from the Vale was Robin Arryn?!!!!

    I can’t think of many worse choices for Master of Coin.Master of Brothels and Assassins, perhaps.Master of War, maybe.Master of something he has no experience whatsoever with, um, no.

    ******

    I love GoT, both the show and the books, but I am wholeheartedly disappointed with the season and the ending.I’m left feeling what was the point of all the painstaking setup.I get red herrings.I don’t get red avalanches.It’s poor storytelling.The season and every episode lacked a cohesiveness, a logic, a sense of purpose that was almost always present in previous seasons.There were many, many amazing moments this season and even in this episode, yes, but the overarching story failed to pull together for me.Though still better than almost all television out there, I’m sorely disappointed when I compare the ending to the beginning and the long middle.

    Thank you, Ginerva, for saying all of this better than I could have.

  260. Well, overall I loved it. It wrapped up almost all of the character arcs perfectly for me.

    I’m intrigued to know what the haters would have done differently with the characters endings?

    Sure, Dany’s dark turn did almost come from nowhere but I think they did a great job this week of clarifying what happened; she didn’t turn mad, she wanted to usher in a new era of Targaryen world order, without “tyranny”. Delusional, terrifyingly narcissistic and visibly energized by the adoration of her “subjects” who had an equally unrealistic world view. I commented on the other thread how this has clear and sinister parallels with today’s world events.

    Jon had no choice but to kill her and lets face it, we ALL saw it coming.

    For me this fulfills in a way the Azor Ahai prophecy: Jon killed his Nissa Nissa to bring forth lightbringer; symbolised not by a sword (duhhh) but by an end to tyranny and oppressive rule- an era of peace and democracy, a broken wheel and a true dream of spring.

    It was clear to me that Drogon realised that Dany’s obsession with the Iron Throne is what was her ultimate downfall- and the reason he lost his mother and siblings.

    What I don’t get is how little Bran contributed to the endgame..well, except for the fact he seemingly orchestrated all of these events to sit himself on the throne. So in doing so, by being aware of what would come to pass, he’s partly responsible for all of the deaths in S8…more deaths than Dany and the NK combined? Something to ponder…

    I also figured Jon would simply die once his destiny (to defeat the powers of darkness/ Dany) was fulfilled. But I’m really satisfied with his ending- and he FINALLY gave Ghost a little scratch!

    Thank you GOT, you have (mostly) been outstanding. We shall never see your like again.

    And thank-you to Sue and all the WOTW, you guys have done a STELLAR job with this site and community! 🙂

  261. GIven the size of the fan base it’s hard to accurately gauge I guess. I didn’t spend a lot of time exploring but I did look through my timeline repeatedly (I follow a lot of got experts and critics) and also the hash tag, based upon what I saw was probably 80% positive with a few disappointed. In my social circle the general perception is very positive though with a few minor concerns over pacing.

  262. Mediumsizedfolk: And what’s Brienne doing in King’s Landing anyway? She swore an oath to Sansa, she never swore anything to Bran.

    I don’t believe Sansa would have any complaints of releasing Brienne of her oath and allowing her to go home or serve her brother, who is a child of Ned and Caitlyn Stark, the oath remains, the gender is the only thing changed.

  263. Milutin,

    Yes, he’s complicit, at least in my appreciation. If he saw that “now is the time” was going to lead to KL burning, and not doing anything about it “it’s your choice” (ahum)… well, that guy is King now?

  264. Hey all, after Jon re-animated wasn’t his original desire to leave Castle Black and head south? So this outcome does sort of feel like a punishment. His character was very in tune with the sensibilities and moral code of the north, but I’m not sure it’s the physical location he’d longed to return to.

    StF – “… Probably- she’s extra like that”. Love it, thank you 🙂

  265. And when Bran dies and the person “chosen” to lead after him decides the North shouldn’t be independent anymore? Or when someone new becomes Lord of one of the other ‘6 Kingdoms’ and decides they want to be Independent? Or when the inevitable day comes where it is time for a new ‘choosing’ of a monarch and the vote is split between different Houses and territories? Gee I wonder what will happen then.

    So much for ‘breaking the wheel’ then I guess.

    What a nihilistic ending. And I do 100% believe it is George’s. This has his hallmarks all over it. I hope he at least explains better how we get to these points.

  266. THEmouseKNIGHT:

    The good thing about the meh final seasons of GoT that I am excited about books again after having given up on WoW ever coming out a few years ago.

    Agreed.

  267. My head canon will always be that Daeny headed directly to the Red Keep in anger. Cersei attempts but fails to burn the city but Daeny’s attack on the Red Keep accidentally finishes the job. A distraught Daenerys touches the Iron Throne and then shakes her head as Jon looks on. She has Drogon melt it to slag and turns to Aegon and says: You have a lot of work to do, Nephew! Hops on Drogon gives her conquest speech and they all fook off to Essos again to tour the place and kill off tyrants.

    Jon looks round and says fook this and gives the job to Sansa and Tyrion and rides north to Ghost. Sansa says fook this place and gives Bran’s chair to Podrick and tells everyone the North is free forever.

    Arya looks round and says fook this place and sails off on her adventure with Syrio Forel/Jaquen H’gar.

    The B team sits around a bit and gives the job to one who robot who came with his own chair since the old uncomfortable chair is now slag.

    Bran looks round and says fook this place and fooks off into Nymeria and goes looking for Meera to apologize for being an ass about Jojen and Hodor.

  268. though we’re all left wondering where she found the cloth for that giant sigil

    When he’s not devouring flocks of sheep and burning his mother’s enemies alive, Drogon is into tapestry weaving.

  269. Top 5 scenes for me …

    1. Jon and Dany in the throne room, and Drogon destroying the Iron Throne – I was incredibly invested in Jon and Dany together, especially after last season. I didn’t want it to end this way for them, even though I always feared that it would. I wanted them to rule together. I wanted them to have a child and be happy. But if it had to end in tragedy for these two lovers, then it ended in heartrendingly poetic fashion. The way that the entire sequence was staged – from the direction, the writing, the cinematography, the performances – all of it was beautiful. Emilia was on another level, as she’s been all season, and Kit made me feel every ounce of Jon’s pain – you could tell just how much it destroyed him to do this, how he was looking for any ounce of light that Dany might give him so that he could spare her life … and she gave him none. And Drogon’s anguish was beautifully rendered as well. That final shot of Drogon carrying Dany’s body away and vanishing into the mist will haunt me forever. I teared up both times I’ve seen it so far. It will not be the last.

    2. Jon and Tyrion’s conversation – Both conversations they shared were outstanding, but the first one especially. I loved how much time that scene was given to breathe, for every line to land, for the camera to linger on every little expression grace Peter and Kit’s faces. More than any other scene in the episode, that scene needed to work, and for me it 1000% did. “Sometimes duty is the death of love”, indeed.

    3. A Time for Wolves – The closing montage with Sansa, Arya, and Jon – Game of Thrones has seldom if ever done montages, but as they say … you save your best for last. Sansa as Queen in the North (so well-earned and My God, her costume was GORGEOUS), Arya sailing west of Westeros, Jon returning to the Real North with Tormund and Ghost with the first signs of spring peeking through the snow. After all of the death and horror, I needed a moment of true catharsis, and this sequence delivered that in spades. It began with the Starks. It ended with the Starks. This was always, above all else, their story. A Time for Wolves, indeed.

    4. Brienne writes Jaime’s Kingsguard entry – One of the scenes that I was most hoping to see. Jaime and Brienne were another couple doomed to tragedy, but Brienne’s final gesture was a true act of love. She will always remember the best of who Jaime was, and now thanks to her, future generations will as well. “Died protecting his queen” – just perfect.

    5. Dany’s victory speech – David and Dan directed the hell out of this entire episode, but this sequence was especially gorgeous. Several people have already shouted out the incredible shot of the dragon wings unfolding behind Dany, but every frame of that scene was like a painting come to life. And Dany’s speech was awesome in the classical sense of the word – impressive and terrifying. I found myself thinking of The Lord of the Rings again, specifically Galadriel’s words to Frodo about what would happen if she ever took the Ring (or in this story, the Iron Throne): “In place of a Dark Lord, you would have a Queen … not dark, but beautiful and terrible as the dawn. Treacherous as the sea. Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair.” I’ve thought about that parallel before when Dany burned the Tarlys last season, but this was the full embodiment of that idea. It was amazing to behold.

  270. Arakh75,

    Well, I’m not sure this form of govt is any better for the people. And if power corrupts, I’d be concerned about giving power to the guy who has super-human warging/time travel/possibly history revising abilities. It doesn’t seem like a real strong way to protect the people from the bad outcomes of corruption!

  271. Ghostgirl,

    > Why did Tyrion have to explain to Jon why Dany had to die?

    because they found no other way to convey Jon’s internal monologue to the audience, I guess.

    I kind of agree with all the rest. I also don’t understand how Jon’s best friend and his most trusted advisor just dropped him like a hot potato. In general, Jon’s ending (before Ghost) felt very tragic to me and the relatively quick successing to the comical scenes of the postwar council and the small council felt a little bit off. And as if Jon mourning his decision was not enough, the other characters didn’t even seem to care.

    Anyway, I imagine a fanservicing sequel. Jon has a daughter with a wilding called Val, who is called Daenerys, whom he raises with tales about her great-aunt but also cautionary tales about her struggle with power. She eventually sets off to find Drogon and understand her quarter Targaryen heritage (along the theme “could I be mad too?” and “how do I avoid that?”). Meanwhile, the 6K go through a lot of turmoil, leading to Bran’s and Tyrion’s demise, until a strongman (or woman) settles the internal disputes, and decides to attack the North, where recently silver mines have been found, and also because of societal reforms in the North, where the commoners are granted more rights, inspired by wildling rule-of-law, and the southerners fear this could give their peasants’ ideas, especially cobblers from the Reach. Despite Arya’s timely return from the east, where she met Daenerys, the Northmen have to retreat beyond the wall after the destruction of Winterfeel. Sansa asks Jon for aid, but the few Free Folk don’t want to meddle into the affairs of the 7K, and do not form a meaningful force. Anyway, beyond of the Wall no one ventures because there is nothing of value to get, and the lands are only known to the locals. But then, Daenerys II flies in with Drogon and saves the day. She decides to rule with Drogon as her source of power, and with Sansa as Hand of the Queen for political guidance (yes, this will be deemed out of character) and they progressively take measures to improve the life of the common people beyond KL’s sewage system, inspired by some of Sansa’s initial political reforms in the North.

  272. orange,

    That’s similar to my initial thought. Congratulations, Sansa, you’re queen of the poorest, least densely populated region of Westeros. How many generations do you expect your independent North to survive before it’s reconquered?

  273. Like others, I don’t think the dots really joined up at the end. The most obvious problem being Sansa asking for independence and it instantly being granted, while all the other lords just blindly go along with being ruled again.

    This is where an extra episode could have benefited the narrative.

    Allow Dany’s actions to sink in and create some fallout. Show the North explicitly declaring its independence again and demanding their King be “freed” – Dany could’ve sent Sansa a raven demanding she come and bend the knee, in an echo of Robb/Ned in Season 1.

    Show Dorne and the Iron Islands aligning with Dany, as they already planned to, and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms choosing sides in preparation for a Dance of Dragons type conclusion. I mean, what was the point of showing Varys firing off all those ravens informing the lords of Westeros of Jon’s identity if nobody was actually going to be shown declaring for him?

    But Jon saves the Seven Kingdoms from descending into further warfare by killing Dany.

    Then Tyrion’s suggestion to elect a neutral party to unite the rival factions would’ve made more sense. And The North refusing to join the union due to their earlier reaffirmation of their independence would feel more credible.

    But instead Dany was dead five minutes after she destroyed King’s Landing, we never got to see any fallout from her actions around the Seven Kingdoms, and five minutes after that everyone was eagerly rejoining the Realm while The North was granted unconditional freedom and self-determination.

    The conclusions they reached were tolerable, but it all felt unnaturally cordial after all these years of conflict.

  274. I’ve only watched the episode once, and during Tyrion’s Dragon Pit speech I thought he said that while he knew that Bran didn’t want to rule, he was going to recommend him because of his knowledge of the past. I don’t recall the topic of Bran as leader ever coming up, can someone remind me when this might have happened? Did I mishear or misunderstand Tyrion? If not, how did he come across this knowledge rather than considering that this outcome was what Bran wanted all along?

  275. Kavonde,

    They survived a few thousand years of independence before a bloke with dragons turned up, so I think they’ll be okay.

  276. Kavonde,

    Guys, come one. Questioning what may or may not happen 60 years down the track is pretty pointless.

    Who’s to say if Jon ruled for decades there wouldn’t be similar uprisings or uncertainty for Westeros? A Targaryen on the throne after Dany’s actions would be bound to create civil unrest.

    A Stark ruling in the the North and a council of nobles electing their ruler in the South is far more stable and democratic system than what was previously in place.

  277. Nick,

    Bran tells Tyrion that he (Bran), doesn’t “want” anymore. It’s when Bran is talking about his chair. It’s this season, I don’t remember the ep.

    Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

    The conclusions they reached were tolerable, but it all felt unnaturally cordial after all these years of conflict.

    ^I’d call the Iron Born and Dornish extremely cordial considering their respective histories.

  278. Can some of you fine folks help clarify for me what showBran’s 3ER capabilities are? It’s muddy for me.

    He can warg into animals and people. He can see into the past, but can he see into the future?

    He knows everything but needs to focus on a particular topic to absorb the information?

  279. I think the story started to unravel for me at the beginning on Season 7, when Jon and Dany first met.

    From the earliest seasons, I thought there would be a Jon/Dany thing down the road. But then we learned about Jon’s parentage, and I started to fervently hope the show didn’t go there.

    Well, they did. And as much as they are both pretty hot people, I couldn’t leap over the auntie-chasm quick enough to buy into their tortured love story. Perhaps because I didn’t believe that Jon would be able to make that leap.

    The only time I felt real chemistry with them was the dragon-ride adventure. The rest of it seemed manufactured and wooden. Unlike his romance with Ygritte, which felt natural and sparky.

    Perhaps if Dany had landed in Westeros earlier, and perhaps if she and Jon had sparky scenes together before we learned that he was really Aegon, I could have fallen in love with them as a couple and been equally tortured by their doomed love affair. Instead, I was mildly uncomfortable with it all along.

    Without being emotionally invested in their love story, I found it hard to buy into Jon’s “rejection” being a factor in Dany’s firebombing of a bunch of civilians. I also found Jon’s blank-eyed despair unconvincing, and his constant defense of Dany “My Queen” to be teeth-grindingly annoying.

    So yeah. Maybe I had bought into their love story perhaps I would have been happier with the ending.

  280. Direcat,

    I haven’t checked that series in a while. The translations are done by volunteers, so sometimes not all the episodes are completed. “Yanxi Palace” runs 70 episodes total. Hopefully the whole show will get English subtitles.

    You could also try “The Snow Tower” or “The Heaven Sword & Dragon Saber”. They’re also on Youtube and it’s more about warriors, sellswords and rogue knights. Both series are 50 episodes each, and all the eps are translated with English subtitles. “Snow Tower” just started posting (they’re on ep. 19). Good fight scenes in these.

    I’m having issues with links, so on Youtube just type in the show name, “English sub” and “1” in the search box and it should come up.

  281. Nick,

    In Episode 4 at the feast Bran told Tyrion that “I don’t really want anymore” when Tyrion questioned why he didn’t want to be Lord of Winterfell.

  282. So for an entire season, Bran would not even let people call him Lord of Winterfell or even a Lord at all, becomes King of the Six Kingdoms. Really? Drogon flies off to somewhere to munch on children, farmers, and shepherds. The real King, who saved everybody, gets banished by his cousin. Sansa has the North delivered to her by her brother[ shocking]. The only redeeming thing that happened, is the fact that the books, if ever finished, will NOT end this way. It looks like they brought Disney in to write the ending of the TV show.

  283. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Yeah, the Jon/Dany romance was the weakest aspect of the past two seasons for me and considering how fundamental it ended up being to the conclusion that’s a major weakness.

    From my perspective it would’ve worked better if Jon had never loved Dany and was simply playing the Game of Thrones, as it were, to save and protect the people he truly loved: his family. That would’ve made Dany’s sense of betrayal and rejection more acute, in my opinion; especially because she put her ambitions on hold and lost people she loved (and whom truly loved her) due to his manipulation. And when his superior claim to the throne emerged, well… cue angry Dany.

    For me, that would’ve been a more Game of Thrones-ish way to go about things and would’ve benefited the characters and plot twists. Rather than have everything hinge on this romance that was established in a handful of episodes where their interactions were dominated primarily by more important life or death issues.

    Others will obviously disagree, but I think the decision to make the credibility of Jon and Dany’s relationship fundamental to the conclusion was a risk that didn’t pay off in practice.

  284. Loved the ending btw 8.5-9/10.

    Last part was s bit weird because they used all the actors they had, and we know in the books will be different (like there’s no way Bronn ends up as Lord of the Reach or in the small council, or Sam as Grand Maester just yet), so just a little bit of fan service, but great nonetheless.

    Loves the season as well, best since 4 I’d say.

    Nice to see an ending to the series I started reading 20 years ago. Not as good as Robin’s Hobb Fitz series but pretty close.

    Thanks to the level headed longtime posters/contributors. Ignore the haters guys and girls

    Special thanks to Sue and Luka and the rest of the guys (and also Phil for creating it, whatever happened later)

    PS: Loved the North regaining it’s independence for obvious reasons 😛

  285. What is dead,

    The books will most likely end the exact same way. A Time for Wolves indeed. This ending feels very much like GRRM. It was always going to be Jon or Dany but not both. You could tell this from the very beginning as they were always framed as parallel stories. Her story had more fire and more triumph along the way, he was always more muted. In the end her fire consumed her. He was meant for the throne, she wanted the throne, neither go it. Jon was always presented as the sacrificial hero, he sacrificed a lot for duty. The twist here is that in the end, he finally chose to be free from everything that had always limited his life – his birthright, his family name(s), his status. He was no longer going to be fighting their wars forever. The sweet among the bitter.

    Bran as King? It makes Tyrion a King by proxy, the only way Tyrion, the consummate player was ever going to rule. This is so GRRM. If he could have made Sam the king, he would have. Brains vs brawn. The overlooked finally looking over people.

    And Sansa? Was her crowning unearned? I am not sure. Sansa has annoyed me at times but I can respect that she truly cared for her people and in my eyes, her saving grace was that she truly wanted Jon as King in the North and she would have welcomed him back had it been her decision. The Starks were always the center, the heart of the story, they paid the required blood price in the beginning, I am glad there was no more wolf blood spilled after Rickon.

  286. Sue,
    Thank you so very much for all the years of hard work, smart and funny insight and a fabulous website where I and many others could come and geek out over a love of the books and show! THANK YOU. Ive never been part of such a deep thinking and supportive fandom, I have a terrible feeling there will not again be something that I love so much, remains to be seen?

  287. Ghostgirl,

    I concur: Bran shouldn’t be anywhere near the throne. Who would want the Big Brother watching? People of Westeros should have a right to privacy after all.

  288. Direcat,

    You’re welcome! I’m glad you liked them. (One of the reasons I loved GoT was it reminded me of these Chinese fantasy/historical dramas I grew up watching.)

  289. What is dead:
    So for an entire season, Bran would not even let people call him Lord of Winterfell or even a Lord at all, becomes King of the Six Kingdoms. Really? Drogon flies off to somewhere to munch on children, farmers, and shepherds. The real King, who saved everybody, gets banished by his cousin. Sansa has the North delivered to her by her brother[ shocking]. The only redeeming thing that happened, is the fact that the books, if ever finished, will NOT end this way. It looks like they brought Disney in to write the ending of the TV show.

    I don’t understand this. This ending was the opposite of Disney. Disney would have been Jon and Dany marrying, having kids and ruling happily ever after.

  290. orange,

    Exactly. Take Russia, for instance: the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 m., but Russia attempted to reconquer Georgia in 2008 and went full war on Ukraine in 2014. Empires don’t fall apart that easy. And Bran is not Bran. BTW, have you noticed that he said that he was no longer Bran to Meera and Jaime, but not to his sisters or Jon or Tyrion? Clever fellow that 3-eyed Raven dude: he uses Brans face and body to gain sympathy and trust, but who’s behind that mask? I feel like nothing good, if he used the Targs to deal with the NK and then manipulated them into self-destruction. That’s not fair fen for a god or whatever the 3-eyed Raven is. Indeed, the crows are liars and the gods are c***s as Sandor said.

  291. JSchmeh: I don’t understand this. This ending was the opposite of Disney. Disney would have been Jon and Dany marrying, having kids and ruling happily ever after.

    No kidding! This was very far from what is meant by derogatorily calling something a “Disney ending.” I actually would have loved a true Disney-esque type of ending to be honest. I enjoy happy endings, sue me. This definitely was not a happy ending. It’s even a stretch to consider some of the individual character endings as on the happy side.

  292. Danny:
    What is dead,

    The books will most likely end the exact same way.A Time for Wolves indeed.This ending feels very much like GRRM. It was always going to be Jon or Dany but not both.You could tell this from the very beginning as they were always framed as parallel stories.Her story had more fire and more triumph along the way, he was always more muted.In the end her fire consumed her. He was meant for the throne, she wanted the throne, neither go it.Jon was always presented as the sacrificial hero, he sacrificed a lot for duty.The twist here is that in the end, he finally chose to be free from everything that had always limited his life – his birthright, his family name(s), his status.He was no longer going to be fighting their wars forever.The sweet among the bitter.

    Bran as King?It makes Tyrion a King by proxy, the only way Tyrion, the consummate player was ever going to rule.This is so GRRM.If he could have made Sam the king, he would have.Brains vs brawn.The overlooked finally looking over people.

    And Sansa? Was her crowning unearned?I am not sure.Sansa has annoyed me at times but I can respect that she truly cared for her people and in my eyes, her saving grace was that she truly wanted Jon as King in the North and she would have welcomed him back had it been her decision. The Starks were always the center, the heart of the story, they paid the required blood price in the beginning, I am glad there was no more wolf blood spilled after Rickon.

    Martin may never write an ending but if he does it will not be like this. This was a Tolkien ending for all of the surviving characters. Martin has a primitive, reality-driven approach that sets him apart from fairytale stories and happy endings. In Martins story, Drogon will die, Jon Snow will die of course Daenerys will die. Martin will leave us with a question mark, not applause.

  293. Kavonde,

    The best question, who would lead the defence of the North in case of the attack? Sansa knows nothing about battles. She’ll need a battlefield comander, and battlefield commanders often end up usurping non-warrior type kings and queens.

  294. Che,

    Yeah, my headcanon/fanfiction picked up the moment after Arya sailed away on the ship with direwolf sails.

  295. Apollo,

    I’m sorry, but this is exactly the same system they had during the reign of King Robert: an absent monarch + an alegedly benevolent Hand + the Small Council comprised of lords and some successful upstarts. So, congratulations Lord Tyrion: you have just reinvented the same old wheel, which will keep spinning.

  296. Clob,

    Pretty much everyone except Jon and Daenerys had a Disney ending. When they were saying bittersweet I expected the bitter and the sweet to cut through the characters not between them, if you understand what I mean.

    Even Jon’s ending can be interpreted as a happy one. Plenty of people are saying he finally got what he wanted – a life beyond the Wall with no constraints or responsibilites. I think he even smiles(??) in that last scenes beyond the Wall. For me, it would have worked better if he died as well. I thought that Drogon would roast him. That would be in line with the book lore. You don’t get to kill a dragonrider with his dragon present and get away with it, but book lore about dragons was thrown out of the window so no surprises there. Jon and Daenerys’s journeys were parallel throughout the story and I thought their ends would be as well. Of course I was hoping for a victorious Targaryen couple or just for a real couple somewhere during the season, not in the end necessarily. How naive of me.

  297. Boojam:
    Grey Worms action is the biggest unexplained anomaly. ApparentlyDany was alone in the throne room because Dragon was guarding her? No one else.
    The scenario could have been:
    Slagging the throne would have been quite a commotion , so what if Grey Worm had shown up right then , gone after Jon, but was stopped by Drogon, who had already given Jon a pass because of Targ blood? That would have thrown Grey Worm into confusion to spare Jon until something could have been figured out.

    Boojam I am not into trying to reinvent the wheel but I kind of would have loved this. Drogon couldn’t fit into the throne room but GW not trying to kill Jon would have been a clearer outcome because of your suggestion.

  298. Ten Bears:
    Che,

    Yeah, my headcanon/fanfiction picked up the moment after Arya sailed away on the ship with direwolf sails.

    I would have loved Nymeria standing beside her, but I suppose she has her pack and wolves aren’t particular about sailing the open seas. 😜

  299. Queen of Nothing,

    I would have liked Grey Worm to come in just as Dany dies and Jon is holding her. Grey Worm roars with frustration alerting Jon to his presence. Jon and GW fight but Jon’s Valyrian steel sword makes mincemeat of GW’s weapons and Grey Worm loses his head. The other Unsullied come in with a few Dothraki all pissed at Jon. Enter Drogon who nobody dares go near. Drogon torches the Unsullied & Dothraki in his rage as well as the IT but Jon lives. Solves problem of appeasing Dany’s armies.

  300. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

    Yes, I agree. If they planned the story to go this path, they should have avoided a romance. Political marriage plans/engagement without real affection from Jon’s side would have served the plot much better.
    And one more thing. They should have shown us a much more violent pacification of Meereen. From what we saw, we were supposed to believe, that everything went smoothly after the city was flooded with a bloodthisty Dothraki horde. I had to suspend my disbelief, but OK – it’s a fantasy story and miracles happen. Anyways, we were supposed to assume that Dany did a good job, because right after this event Tyrion told her “I believe in you”. And that’s exactly why this Dany’s snap thing rings so false, contrived and manufactured. If she was supposed to be corrupted by power, the first clear signs should have appeared in Meereen, when she first put her dragons and the Dothraki into use.

  301. Danny: The Starks were always the center, the heart of the story, they paid the required blood price in the beginning, I am glad there was no more wolf blood spilled after Rickon.

    You are right, I’d say they paid. The pack survives – but what constitutes a pack now? They, who were together at Winterfell to quell the NK, are now all separated from each other, they are lone wolves.

    At least Jon has a friend in Tormund, and the remaining Wildings seem to adore him. He will likely find some sort of happy life. What the heck happened to Davos though? Not that I truly expected him to choose to go back to the cold of the North, but still. I guess we were given hints that he would jump ship when first coming to Dragonstone with Jon and talking to Missandei. He even asked Jon if Jon would mind if he changed sides. sigh.

    But Sansa is completely alone, as now even Brienne and Podrick have positions in KL that won’t readily allow them to even visit, much less protect her. I suppose as Queen she can designate some Ladies in Waiting, or something similar. Thank goodness Jon is somewhat close by, but will ravens fly further north? She has some fabulous seamstresses though – that flowered dress was breathtaking. (a tiny attempt at humor, but the dress was gorgeous.)

    Bran, he’s mostly alone by choice, yet he has his internal spy cam that can keep track of everyone. Arya, surrounded by strangers, going to stranger lands. She won’t even be able to stop in at the Iron Islands for supplies and a chat with Yara because she threatened to cut Yara’s throat. Maybe she’ll make some sort of peace with Yara, or bring some wonderful trinket back for her that Yara can’t resist. Sail well and far, but don’t wait 20 years to come back dear girl.

    You see, it’s the nature of this show/story to want it to keep going. We never want to leave, so here we are, I am, looking into the unwritten futures of fictional characters, wringing our hands in worry that our favorites will do well.

    I will give the prequel a try when it comes, and as I said before, I would watch a show that continues the stories of any of the Starks. Yet, there won’t be any, will there? At least not in the near future, and not with the same cast. Time to attempt to patch up the hole in my life where this show has been and move on.

  302. Inga,

    No, not at all. Rulers will continue to be elected by the Lord Paramonts of the 6 Kingdoms. No one will take the throne simply because their father was king before them.

  303. Che: Jon may still get to give Longclaw to his children. In my headcanon, he lives a happy life with his Wildling family, marries a wildling woman called Val and has children who ride around on Ghost like a pony when they’re tiny. That’ll be my new overly sickly-sweet only-in-my-head happy end-shot – Jon and his wildling wife Val, laughing in their hut as they watch toddler Sam riding around on Ghost as he tells the older kids, Arya and Robb a fairytale about an epic battle between the dead and the living in a land far, far away

    Not only in your head – That’s quite alright with me, sounds lovely.

  304. clemyB:
    Clob,

    I guess HBO will have to find new producers if they want more of GOT, and want a sequel for the so called final that will take place lets say in 10-15 years from the time of the current events. And the more I think the more I believe that a sequel is an absolute necessity. Which will give them the opportunity to hire new actors and to bring a new production team on board.

    Why hire new actors? They’d just need a core group of three or four characters played by the same actors 10-15 years from now to jump start a sequel.

    One of my most beloved movies, made in 1995, consisting mostly of two characters meeting, walking and talking during the course of one night together) was made even more enjoyable when the same two actors playing the same two characters ten years older starred in a sequel in 2004.

    I’m talking about Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke in “Before Sunrise” (1995), about an American boy in Europe with eight hours to kill before his flight home, who meets a French girl on a train and convinces her to wander around Vienna (?) with him before he has to leave. I don’t want to give away anything more. It was a lovely film on its own. The “action” is through wordplay.

    Who among us wouldn’t want to see Sansa, Arya and Jon ten years later – with a prologue of an older Tyrion at the Wall “pissing off the edge of the world”? Arya can’t stay at sea forever. Jon will eventually want to make a sojourn to WF. Sansa “the pack survives” Stark won’t want to be away from her family forever. Besides, all the interpersonal stuff that got “hurried up” these past two seasons can proceed at a deliberate pace with a team of inspired writers and a production crew with fresh legs.

    Like in “Before Sunrise”, with the right dialogue in a GoT sequel I could sit in front of my TV entranced for hours at a time, with no need for dragons. swordfighting or zombies.

  305. Ten Bears,

    Most of these actors are so young that a sequel in 10-15 years is not only doable, it would be perfect. Dinklage is only 49, so he’d be in his early 60s. Perfect age for an elder. Maisie and Sophie are barely into their 20s, they’ll be perfect power brokers.

    Kit’s only 32, and something tells me he’s one of those guys who will age like a fine wine. <3.

  306. For the last 8 years I have been a lurker here as I have no confidence but thank you .I am happy with the ending not so much the journey lets hope for the books . God I am sobbing

  307. Bran can absolutely see the future. He saw Drogon fly over KL and he saw the wildfire explosions under the Sept.

    He also knew what everyone’s role was in defeating the NK, as well as the fate of KL. that lil spooky dude is the biggest villain of them all 🤯

    ramses,

  308. Danys story is super tragic, and I think Geroge R R Martin will be able to develop it better, and let is into all the complexity of the character. But I can see how everything in Dany’s life has made her believe that she is the savior, that she is the “messiah” in biblical terms. Even the birth of her dragons and her inability to burn, gave her proof that she represented the good, the right, she was “the mother”. And that blind belief led her to become someone with no boundaries, who invalidated anyone else’s beliefs, experiences and abilities to choose. It’s super tragic, because in the end she meant to do good, what she thought was good, as she thought she was it. in the end, Jon had to kill her for there to be any possibility of peace, and freewill. So tragic, and I’m hoping to get more insight into her character development in the books since it is hard to portray something so complex in television, but amazing job Emilia Clarke.

    All in all I’m happy with how it ended, I thought something bittersweet was the way to go, and that’s what we got. There’s a few things I was kind of disappointed by (Cercei and Jaimie’s ending I wished was more epic), or things that I still don’t fully understand but maybe with time they’ll start to make more sense. Also I wasn’t expecting everything to end with a neat little bow, things are abound to remain open endings. Also I feel like they producers struggled in some parts with the character development this season, in getting to the ending George R R Martin told them. Being this a TV show they definitely chose cinamatography and action over character building, which I get. That’s why i hope we get the books soon, because this is such an amazing and complex story as a people study and complexity of the human race.

    The Stark children always were the true protagonists of the story, and that’s how it ended. Great story all in all, so happy we were blessed with 8 seasons of it!

  309. In the kingdom of the blind, the Three-Eyed Raven is King! Note how everyone in show, and many fans, still think of him as “Bran”, despite his repeated warnings against this 😀 “I may go look for him – do carry on.”
    #3EyedRaven

  310. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
    RIP Jon Snow.

    You died in S7E6, mewling “my queen” for no reason at all.

    Your body and soul were desecrated repeatedly over the following 6 episodes before your character was finally cremated in S8E6, when you tried to justify genocide for no reason at all while mewling “You are my queen. Now and always” for no reason at all.

    Your ashes were scattered north of The Wall
    ***

    So whose voice was it and what did the voice say when Jon Snow’s balls were cast into the fire?

  311. Ginevra,

    You are most certainly not alone.

    Will I always love it? Yes. Do I think GRRM’s ending is similar? Yes. But I’d be lying to myself if I didn’t admit that S7 and S8 were crushing disappointments to me.

  312. Pigeon: I would have loved Nymeria standing beside her, but I suppose she has her pack and wolves aren’t particular about sailing the open seas. 😜

    I assume you’ve read Rory McCann’s interviews in which he describes how much he enjoys being out in the middle of the ocean by himself on his boat?

  313. Mango,

    Cool, I hope you like it. Thank you for all your posts today, too. They were fun to read.

    Also, check out my comment to Direcat at 3:26 pm time further up the thread. I made two other show recommendations there, if you’re interested.

  314. Direcat,

    D&D messed that one up by having the character say something to the effect of “a thousand years I’ve been in this tree.”

    Brynden Rivers would have been a few years older than Aemon. They went to the Wall together.

  315. Mango,

    As with many, many other things that D&D left unexplained, I’d love to believe that if King Bran is part of GRRM’s end (and I can’t imagine that it’s not), Bran’s decision to accept the throne is part of a calculated move to end the influence of magic in the world. He needs weirwoods to look into the past, and my understanding is that the 3ER he replaced needed to be part of the tree to keep living. If Bran has chosen not to become part of a tree, does that not mean that he’s chosen a natural life and death?

  316. Wolfish,

    Interesting question/idea. I do not know and never thought of that.

    As you say so many unexplained things. My only reflection on it is that if they had provided the viewers with sufficient understanding of Bran as the Raven then we maybe we would know the answer. It turned out that the critical character was barely active in the narrative compared to others. So here we are after 8 years with no clear view of it.

    In an interview with Isaac, they asked him what Bran was doing when he warged into the ravens during war with the NK – said he did not know. No one told him. If he does not know, what can we say?

  317. Tresha of Tarth: Two more 10 epidode seasons would have been my preference. That said, I think D&D D a fantastic job. Blame HBO, not the show runners.

    HBO was willing to fund more episodes/seasons. D&D were done (Benioff has actually said that they “always” thought it should wrap up in about 73 episodes). It’s all on the writers for having given us such truncated final seasons.

  318. Ten Bears: I assume you’ve read Rory McCann’s interviews in which he describes how much he enjoys being out in the middle of the ocean by himself on his boat?

    Of course! I can relate to liking the solitary life. 😁 But wouldn’t I have loved it if Sandor had taken off with Arya. Sigh. Ah well. Pity they cut out the bit of him rising from the ashes of Kings Landing. 😜

  319. So, Maester Samwell of the Small Council might have helped Westeros take early steps toward a future Constitutional Monarchy (or something in a 1500 years or so),
    Did he have any effect on changing Maester Culture?
    Cuz… What about Gilly and baby Jon Jr., and his older brother Sam Jr.?!?

  320. John Mansfield,
    Major thumbs up for a Thomas Covenant reference. One of the truly great fantasy sagas of all time – the first chronicles anyway. The 2nd was good but the third was lost.

  321. Who the fuck is this new Prince of Dorne and these other lords that never appeared in the show before?

  322. Well the GoT ride as been entertaining and even the low points were better than 95% of television. Looking forward to ASoIaF and the considerable differences from the HBO adaptation, the books are already considerably different so hurry up Georgie.
    I’m hoping for a GoT movie 10 years from now following how our favorites have been holding up. It of course must have a cohesive story to tell and not just a montage of 15 minute what’s been happening scenes.
    Keeping my subscription, looking forward to Watchmen and Westworld, even Euphoria.

  323. Pigeon:
    If Nikolaj starts a petition, I’d definitely sign it.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxswpkslPpW/?igshid=f95pn9eugyt3

    To petition what? I could not understand the link?

    I am sure that anything that Nik says will be supportive of the D&D and the creative choices made as we have seen them unfold. Given the big publicity fallout, he has no real space for anything but the “corporate line” in all these social media things etc. He will be professional say everything is just perfect with his character arc, as he should. When the dust settles we may hear more ….but far too sensitive now.

  324. Apollo:

    What I don’t get is how little Bran contributed to the endgame..well, except for the fact he seemingly orchestrated all of these events to sit himself on the throne. So in doing so, by being aware of what would come to pass, he’s partly responsible for all of the deaths in S8…more deaths than Dany and the NK combined? Something to ponder…

    And thank-you to Sue and all the WOTW, you guys have done a STELLAR job with this site and community!

    I’ve been pondering this. The question then is: what did Bran know and when did he know it?

    I’ve had the impression that he knew exactly why he was giving Arya the Valerian Steel Dagger. He knew why she should have it. That is a very precise bit of knowledge. But we are left with the dilemma; are his visions of the future just random flashes as we saw in previous years, such as his vision of a dragon shadow over Kings Landing, or the cache of wildfire beneath the Sept? Seeing random flashes of something is one thing, knowing what to do about them is something else.

    However, from the finale it certainly appears that Bran knew he would end up being king. From that point of view; what purpose did it serve to tell Jon about his parentage? No good came from it, none whatsoever. It was that revelation which splintered Jon and Dany and led to her further isolation and was a factor leading to her “snap”.

    So did Bran know she was going to devastate Kings Landing? Could he have warged into Drogon and stopped the annihilation? Certainly, if Drogon had been under his control, Bran could have either killed Dany or just have flown him off somewhere, thus breaking the basis of her power. And then thousands of civilians wouldn’t have come to horrible deaths.

    I understand the writer’s fear of ‘deus ex machina Bran’, and perhaps his power to affect the future is limited? Dany could still have come to the same conclusion, it may just have happened in a different way, despite Bran’s attempts to stop it. Of course, we just have no answers one way or the other, so we are left with the open question; what did Bran know about the future and what could he do about it?

  325. i loved the ending. sooooo good.
    As i said in another post, i had some issues with the episode but that was due to the short season mostly. But i am a fan, this is what they are giving me, and this is what I will take and I will enjoy it and love it. Im not going to sit here and say how it could have been done better, because it is already so damn good.
    I am so glad jon isn’t king, that is not what i wanted for him, that’s not him at all. He’s a stark he always has been.

  326. Unsure if you are actively trolling or really believe what you have written. Which ever holds true I think it’s very safe to say that you don’t know the ending but D&D and GRRM do, both of which have said repeatedly the show and books will have the same ending. That means Mad Queen Dany and Jon alive and exiled, you need to face up to that I’m afraid.

  327. Nina,

    And Sansa. Her big mouth was the nail to Daenerys’ the coffin. And she gets a crown as a reward?

    It was not the only reason, just her deliberate Chaos kickoff to isolating Dany into the madness that got perhaps 200K civilians killed. She just sat back safe Winterfell while others risked their lives and experienced and witnessed Dany’s holocaust. But think of it–Sansa is now Cersei 2.0, with her diadem crown and black dress. She sits stiffly, having left her humanity with her innocence behind long ago. Brienne has left her too. The North will be an autocracy while the Six Kingdoms will be a cradle-democracy. Sansa will not share one iota of power–she will probably die alone, unloved, trusting nobody. After her death, there will either be a war of succession or the South will annex the North once more. Of the four Stark kids, her ‘victory’ may ultimately be the most fleeting and tragic.

  328. Stark Raven’ Rad,

    Sansa’s coronation dress wasn’t black.

    The North is a hereditary autocracy; the South is an elective autocracy, not a democracy.

    The series doesn’t address northern succession at all, but based on Sansa’s comment about Bran one could infer she intends to have heirs.

  329. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Amen, I have the same thought of please keep Val alive George, because there is a ‘thing’ there in the books. She tries flirting so much with him, he wants her but Duty! Stannis will be the NK in books I think, if Coldhands isn’t the real one-I still don’t believe GRRM about Benjen not being Coldhands. The weathered clothing is not enough for me to make him too old to be Benjen.

    Jon is the new true King Beyond the Wall-he will never ask them to kneel, they will respect his authority to the very end, because they would be no more if not for him. Val & actual love in the end is what Jon deserves after all the damn Duty he has been forced to do ‘For The Realm’.

  330. Wolfish:
    Mango,

    As with many, many other things that D&D left unexplained, I’d love to believe that if King Bran is part of GRRM’s end (and I can’t imagine that it’s not), Bran’s decision to accept the throne is part of a calculated move to end the influence of magic in the world. He needs weirwoods to look into the past, and my understanding is that the 3ER he replaced needed to be part of the tree to keep living. If Bran has chosen not to become part of a tree, does that not mean that he’s chosen a natural life and death?

    Maybe later he will move into a tree…who knows? King In the Tree – maybe as soon as Tyrion dies and the rest too.

  331. Making the 8,

    You didn’t ramble on, even if you were drunk. “In Veno Veritas”

    Check out Westeros.org Literature section-lots of suggestions of other fantasy works that others like!
    I don’t really like Elios & Linda because they think of themselves very highly-AKA arrogant, but it is the Novel series’ best resource. The fact they are probably making a nice living off GRRM’s work is off putting also.
    It is what it is.

  332. Isabelle,

    Great points!

    Even though he will probably never have the title Jon IS the new King Beyond the Wall. Tormund “Big Tales” Giantsbane will see to it, even though they all know they would not exist if not for him!

  333. Mountains of Madness,

    Bran is supposed to be kind of a deity, isn’t he? Does he believe in free will? If so, then it would make sense for him to keep quiet about what is to come. He gave Arya the dagger but never told her what to do with it so he did not affect her free will. He told Sansa the truth about Littlefinger but only after she had asked. He told Jon the truth about his parentage (via Sam) but it was always up to Jon whether to reveal HIS secret or not. People wonder why Bran decided to tell him the truth if nothing would come of it but the reason may be quiet simple: he felt that Jon had a right to know. And didn’t he? Jon had the absolute right to know. If for nothing else so that he could make an informed decision on whether he could carry out an incestual relationship or not. Turns out that he could not.

    I do not believe that Bran is manipulating anything at this point. He was quite young when he became the 3ER, he wasn’t a consummate player like Brynden Rivers his predecessor. Bran the detached is simply someone who knows things but is content to let people make their own decisions. Just as he is content to sit as King and let others, mainly Tyrion, rule on his behalf.

  334. I’m disappointed how the series ended but I can live by it. I’m okay how most character arcs ended. Jon having to kill Daenerys and got punished for it just so to save everyone’s ass was disappointing and no one defended him.

    I’m okay having Sansa crowned QUEEN OF THE DEAD; but being crowned queen of the north is ABSURDED. Sansa should have been dead 5 seasons ago. She does not join in any fights or battles (USELESS) but yet got a crown put on her head.

    Oh well, at least Jon reunited with Ghost and Tormund.

    LONG LIVE KING JON/AEGON!!! King beyond the wall!

  335. Emily,

    Actually, while I cut my fantasy reading teeth on that book, I found that the second one was actually far superior as far as story telling goes (the first builds the world, really). But its still a classic and a must read for fantasy lovers. After the third book it all goes down hil…btw sci fi channel did a decent series on the book that I liked much better than the movie adaptation made a few years prior

  336. Ghostgirl,

    Was the season rushed? Absolutely, one or two more episodes would have done wonders to set a more appropriate tone. Having said that it was not and there’s that. It is done. Maybe in 30 years someone decides to take a crack at it again but I doubt it.

    -I teared up over Jon because the guy deserved better. I know that people were disappointed with his unwavering loyalty to Dany but the problem with portraying Jon has always been that he was always conceived as a very internal character. His chapters in the novels are very much centered on his continuous internal struggle. Jon is a man of few words but the novels allow us access to his thoughts so we are able to understand him better. But tv is a visual medium so Jon’s struggles must be externalized. In the novels I imagine his mind will be in turmoil about what is right and what is wrong, about loyalty, love and family. He will feel guilty relentlessly and he will struggle to keep his word to Dany. Book Jon, unlike Book Dany, often wallows in regret and guilt, even for simple staff as secretly coveting your brother’s place. Imagine how he will handle the idea of betraying someone he loves and on top of that becoming a kinslayer. So without the benefit of being able to read his thoughts, Show Jon must then externalize his feelings by saying them out loud.

    The reason why I always loved Jon above everyone else was that he struggled mightily with his own weaknesses and desires and yet would more often than not opt for doing the right thing. If Jon had abandoned Dany at a drop of a hat it would have been out of character. His hesitation on betraying her was very much who he is but in the end was there ever any doubt that he would do what needed to be done for the good of the realm?

  337. Mountains of Madness,

    I’ve wondered that myself. Did Bran see the future and do nothing to stop it? Or worse, did he manipulate others in order for the future possibility to happen and end up on the throne?

    Either way, thousands of innocents died in KL.

    I loved the books and show but was disappointed by this last season.

    It’s very hard to believe that honorable Jon, who couldn’t lie to Cersei about having pledged himself to Danaerys even though it would mean dooming the North, would be so cynical as to embrace Danaerys and tell her she would always be his queen in order to plunge a dagger into her? Jon Snow, the Queenslayer? The killer of his aunt and lover?

  338. Inga,

    Not only did he reinvent the wheel, it will spin even faster. As per one of D&D’s best original contributions to GoT, it was the political union between Cersei and Robert that kept the kingdoms together (and Robert’s friendship with Ned & Vale) That spoke is now broken…

  339. No one will likely see this but I just had a thought that made me laugh so I wanted to share. So most everyone here knows the story of when D&D were running out of book material, they flew to NM to powwow with GRRM on the main beats of the rest of the story. It was at this meeting that GRRM likely revealed that Bran would be on the Iron Throne at the end. Now, if I have my mind around the timing of all of this correctly, it would seem that after GRRM told them that crucial detail, that Bran was the answer to the most important question of the series, D&D decided that the best course of action was to then bench the character for the entirety of the next season. lol.

  340. Long time reader and poster (since 2009 on WIC).

    What an amazing journey this has been. I just read GRRM’s blog post about the finale, and it got me nostalgic for the whole thing. I remember the original casting announcements ten years ago, and now the cast members have become celebrities! The show, which I originally worried was too complex and weird for mass audiences, became the most popular show on TV. HBO’s most succesful show ever. It’s been wild.

    Overall, I loved the finale. Especially after my 2nd watch. Was it perfect? No, but it was really satisfying. I am so happy for the Stark children. I am sad for what happened with Dany, but it makes sense and feels right to me. I might have a few quibbles, but overall I feel like this was a great finale.

    The negativity this year has been insane, but people have complained since Season 1 (about casting, story changes, writing choices, Ned, Red Wedding, Ramsay torture scenes, etc. etc.). I think this season was definitely rushed, and my biggest complaint is about the White Walker storyline lacking payoff and being solved too quickly. However, I loved almost everything else including Dany. The battles were LOTR-scale epic. I felt emotional saying goodbye to the characters last night, and am still processing everything.

    I think, in time, people will come to appreciate the finale more. I believe the legacy of GOT is pretty safe. Despite its flaws, it’s still the most entertaining, epic TV show of all time.

    Thanks Sue and everyone else who made this 10-year journey so enjoyable. Always Support the Bottom!

  341. “I’m not Bran Stark I’m the Three Eyed Raven… oh wait no actually I am Bran Stark The Broken, King of The Seven Kingdoms…” Ah, ok… bit of an underwhelming end I felt, now it’s over in retrospect it’s a shame this last season wasn’t longer to allow these final events not seem so …unexplained. Didn’t have a problem with Dany going mad, but the second half of this episode was so rushed (even though we got what felt like about five minutes of Tyrion looking for Jamie and Cersei). Jon being effectively thrown into the dirt by everyone seemed ridiculous…

  342. The only good thing I can take from this, is that I learned a lesson. Never again I will be this involved with an unfinished series (books or tv).

  343. I expect several people to rub it in my face that political!Jon didn’t happen.

    This finale gutted me, and not even the crowning of Sansa could make it sweeter. She ends up utterly alone without her pack.
    I wasn’t even a big Jon fan but what was done to his character is unforgivable.

    I mean, no matter what the Dany stans say, Daenerys’ fall was the most predictable thing that could happen in this series, it’s been foreshadowed for years.
    Jon and Dany’s relationship has always had an imbalanced power dynamic and even consent issues. Always, since their meeting. It’s too consistent to be unintentional. I thought that Jon wasn’t the Northern fool, I thought he’d seen Dany for who she was: a tyrant ,and that’s why we weren’t shown his POV yet. But no. Even watching thousands of people murdered in a few hours wasn’t enough for him to renounce his great love (ugh) Dany, it had to be Tyrion to make him see the light? Wtf? It’s justified because of her trauma? But Sansa and Arya also watched Ned Stark being beheaded in front of their eyes, Arya saw how Robb’s body was defiled.
    But even then, Jon was fooled because Missandei and Rhaegal’s deaths weren’t catalysts for brutality, it’s an excuse because Dany’s always wanted to burn KL (7.04 and 8.04), and he knew it, didn’t he!?

    I’m an anti-Jonerys to the core but hell, if we were supposed to understand Jon’s choice, I would’ve preferred a thousand times over that they made us believed in their love. Or is Kit a bad actor and only has chemistry with redheads? Because even his relationship with SANSA felt more tender and heartfelt than the one he had with the Dragon Queen.

    What was the point of RLJ besides getting Varys killed and further Dany’s plot?? Neither Jon, or Sansa, or Arya was shown to struggle with the significance of this. No existential crisis.
    What was the point of “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives”?? Every Stark this season was a lone wolf. There was no teamwork. No goodbyes scenes before the battle or when Jon goes South, or when Arya leaves Sansa possibly forever.

    All the Starks deserved better than this finale but Jon deserved to be at least in character and he wasn’t even allowed that courtesy. I’m genuinely disgusted.

  344. Lex,

    Hey Lex, a guitar playing canadian, right? I remember you and many others (Rygar, HB, etc) fondly

    I left the forum around season 5-6 due to the leaks and the bickering, but those first 6-7 years were amazing.

    I totally agree with your comment. Great finale to a great show.

    People coming here and saying things like they’re genuinely disgusted etc, I’m sorry for them, they probably have real issues in their lives that make them behave and constantly feel a toxicity they feel the need the spread. Hope they find the help they need to sort their lives.

    To the rest, Always Support the Bottom!

    Ten Bears,

    Life-changing movies you’re talking about there, Richard Linklater is god <3

  345. Hello all. First I would like to say that I admire D and D for sticking with GRRM’s vision in the end. That was very brave of them. Fans can have VERY strong opinions regarding what they expect to happen and there canbe some anger and lashing out when you have all this time to envision what you want to happen and then……it doesn’t. I am sad that there weren’t more episodes. I do agree with many that all the lose ends needed more time to be played out. There definitely needed to be more episodes, I agree 100%on that point. I was also frustrated by this. But it is also true that if you are looking for escapism, you’ve come to the wrong place. GRRM’s art is realistic fiction. I realize there are fans who were tired of the sayings, “subverting tropes” or “no disney ending” . Once about 3 years ago, I expressed a prediction on a different site that suggested GRRM will do just that and I got shut down for that by some enthusiastic Jon/Dany fans. At the time, I figured it is just a story and I won’t get myself stressed out about it. But it was kind of obvious that the clues were there if you wanted to see them. So to conclude, I don’t think I am signing any petitions to redo the season.

  346. Meg,

    The Northmen respect Sansa because she has never deviated from their best interests and desire for independence.

    You mean after she fawned over Jeoffrey because all she ever wanted was to be a queen?
    Northern independence is just a means to Sansa’s megalomaniac aspirations.

  347. Maester of Grammar,

    Sansa was 13 when it all started and she thought she was in love with a prince. As you know, she afterwards kicked herself for her own naiveté.

    Check again the definition of megalomania= behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

    Never since Ned’s death have we ever seen Sansa displaying a distorted sense of superiority or seeking to establish abusive control over others.
    Growing up, all the power Sansa ever wanted was the power to protect her pack- and her people. The power she got , she got it by winning their hearts with love, mercy and the respect she has for them.

  348. Thronetender,

    Actually, to me it felt like D&D sacrificed Jon’s character just to woobify the Dragon Queen and to soften the blow for the Dany fans who never saw her character turn coming(!).
    Hearing Jon excuse the mass-murder of KL was a serious blow. That’s not Jon Snow. Doesn’t the guy have morals that condone war crime?

  349. – Where did the Dothraki go in the end? Back to Essos? (We didn’t see them any more after that victory speech scene.)
    – Who was this guy next to Edmure during the council. Do we know him?
    – Why was Thormund still at the Wall? The wildlings could have crossed beyond the wall weeks
    – Did Bran know that Jon would not join the Night‘s Watch but cross beyond the Wall? (Probably. But what about the others? Will anyone care if they find out?)
    – How did they rebuild parts of King‘s Landing so fast? (The harbour area seemed in pretty good shape!)
    – Who’s on the ship with Arya? How did she find so many people who want to sail with her into the unknown?

    So many questions!

    But it general I really liked the last episode and found it to be a satisfying end to the series! 🙂

  350. Danny:
    Mountains of Madness,

    Bran is supposed to be kind of a deity, isn’t he?Does he believe in free will?If so, then it would make sense for him to keep quiet about what is to come.He gave Arya the dagger but never told her what to do with it so he did not affect her free will.He told Sansa the truth about Littlefinger but only after she had asked.He told Jon the truth about his parentage (via Sam) but it was always up to Jon whether to reveal HIS secret or not.People wonder why Bran decided to tell him the truth if nothing would come of it but the reason may be quiet simple:he felt that Jon had a right to know.And didn’t he?Jon had the absolute right to know.If for nothing else so that he could make an informed decision on whether he could carry out an incestual relationship or not.Turns out that he could not.

    I do not believe that Bran is manipulating anything at this point.He was quite young when he became the 3ER, he wasn’t a consummate player like Brynden Rivers his predecessor.Bran the detached is simply someone who knows things but is content to let people make their own decisions.Just as he is content to sit as King and let others, mainly Tyrion, rule on his behalf.

    Very well put.

    It raises the interesting issue of free will. Dany clearly didn’t fully believe in it. She had her “destiny” and others had to follow her will or die. It’s understandable how and why she could become to feel that way, and it’s a tragedy.

    As to Bran, I think he felt so guilty and even horrified by “hodoring” Wylis with his time tripping and influencing events that he’s decided to not to meddle anymore. I think IHW said in some interview a couple of years ago that Bran has learned his lesson from the “hodor” incident.

    How long might King Bran live? I think there’s a lot of confusion because the tree guy (in S4?) said he’d been waiting for a thousand years.

    Book readers know the 3ER Bran meets is Brynden Rivers, a half-Targ bastard, also called Bloodraven, a contemporary of “our” Maester Aemon (somewhat older but general same time period, and they knew each other).

    Does the show’s 3ER’s “thousand years” refer to that particular guy, or perhaps to earlier iterations of 3ERs, of which Bran is the latest? There have been 3ERs for thousands of years (it’s a CotF thing) but a thousand years ago the then 3ER sensed something was coming and all the iterations since then have been waiting for Bran?

    In the books it’s clear Bloodraven/3ER has had his life prolonged (he’s like 125 yrs old) by the life force of the weirwood tree that has quite literally grown into him. So there’s no reason to think in the books that Bran’s life would be similarly prolonged if he leaves the cave and a weirwood tree doesn’t grown into him.

    Based on book knowledge, I’m tending to think Bran won’t have an unnaturally long lifespan, but the show has left it ambiguous.

  351. Maester of Grammar:

    You mean after she fawned over Jeoffrey because all she ever wanted was to be a queen?
    Northern independence is just a means to Sansa’s megalomaniac aspirations.

    Yes, because none of the characters have any character growth over the 8 seasons. It’s all locked in in the first few episodes. /s

  352. 3eyes,

    You’re welcome. I hope you like the show.

    Rewatching Drogon destroying the IT scene, I think that’s how Cersei should have gone out. Mortally wounded (by Arya or Jaime), but still sitting on the throne, refusing to give the power up. And Dany giving the order of execution by dragonfire.

    And the Jaime/Cersei death should have been given to Dany and Drogon. The two last symbols of Old Valyria, meeting the end together as their world literally collapses around them.

    I also remember last year or the year before, there was a minor stir on social media about a supposed “script leak” of Season 8. It was covered on YouTube and a few places. At the time people’s reaction (myself included) was negative; some described it as illogical/bad fanfic/didn’t make sense. Heh, if I only knew – compared to the actual final season, that fake leak looks pretty great to me now! 😉

  353. Brad Johnston:

    Even though he will probably never have the title Jon IS the new King Beyond the Wall. Tormund “Big Tales” Giantsbane will see to it, even though they all know they would not exist if not for him!

    Hear, hear! I’ll admit, am growing more and more okay with Jon’s ending. Jon’s now surrounded by people who not only love him, but fully appreciate everything he’s done – which, all things considered, is quite a lot, despite how quiet he’s been (if only Yara knew, for example, who gave Theon that nice little nudge to get going and save her!!…). Jon would’ve been miserable in KL, perhaps even the court at Winterfell, and who knows the backstabbing awaiting him.

    In a way Bran saved his life in multiple ways – an acceptable punishment for those who wished him harm so they’re off his back, a safe place for him to grieve and then find himself again among those who love and appreciate him, and a purpose in guiding, nurturing and protecting the Freefolk (someone’s got to teach them to build a windmill!). It still grates that he’s the only one taking the fall for what happened in KL (apart from Dany of course), but maybe that was the only way to get him out and where he’d be happiest. While Tormund carries on with singing his praises, I hope Jon gets a nice long nap and snuggle with his dog. He’s more than earned it.

  354. Netheb: Actually, to me it felt like D&D sacrificed Jon’s character just to woobify the Dragon Queen and to soften the blow for the Dany fans who never saw her character turn coming(!).
    Hearing Jon excuse the mass-murder of KL was a serious blow. That’s not Jon Snow. Doesn’t the guy have morals that condemn war crime?

    Fixed. This finale is affecting me more than I thought lol

  355. Amaryllis,

    I simply think you are reading that scene wrong. Jon wasn’t being cynical. He was being truthful. He really did love Daenerys despite it all. He loved her. Of course Jon knew that what Daenerys did was horrific, he knew this in his heart and this is why he was so conflicted. People are not robots, they just don’t discard love in an instant. Love doesn’t die an instant. Jon loved her but couldn’t reach her and in the end, he had to do what was right for everyone else so he killed her. This doesn’t invalidate the fact that she was who she was to him. This isn’t even new to the character for goodness sake: 1) He killed Qhorin Half Hand for duty’s sake. He killed him because Qhorin told him it was the only way and he needed to do it for the realm. 2) He left Ygritte his first love for duty’s sake and to try to save the realm from a wildling invasion and finally he killed his kin, the woman he loved again for duty’s sake because as Tyrion told him, he was the shield that guards the realm of men. If there was one character that was consistent throughout the series it was very much Jon Snow.

  356. Netheb,

    You are completely ignoring human condition here. Jon has never been without internal struggle. He has had desires and emotions that have often contradicted his moral values but the key to him, and what has often set him apart, is that he usually ends up doing what his conscious tells him is right. When Jon is outwardly excusing Daenerys’ actions, when he is trying to justify her, he is doing this more for his own sake than for those who are listening. No one truly believes he believes the actions are justifiable, not even him and that is the point. He is trying to convince himself because he simply loves her too much. Look at his face, look at how he is struggling with it. I am glad that the show kept Jon a very human character, he is decent and moral because he chooses to be, every day in every action, not because he was inherently born a decent character and he never falters.

  357. Danny,

    I understand what you mean. You’re right but what I can’t understand is that how could Jon have fallen in love with her in the first place, when he saw her having to be talked down from burning the Red Keep in 7.04, berating her Hand in public, AND using the survival of the North as leverage to get him to bend the knee?

    I mean, I don’t understand how Jon Snow could love a woman like this? Is there something wrong with me?

  358. Netheb,

    Love, the romantic conception of it, is not logical. Sometimes it comes and takes you unaware, sometimes it builds overtime without you ever realizing it until you are engulf by it. If love was logical, the divorce rate in the world would be super low.

    Jon is an interesting character in that he is never portrayed as someone who loves superficially. But he is also someone who is not exposed to a lot of options either. There was Ygritte who basically forced herself on him (in the books she clearly did) and he not having had any other experiences on the matter falls hard for her as any boy in his situation would. Then he closes his heart on that regard until Dany. I always found Dany irritating and easily inclined to cruelty but she wasn’t either of those things all the time. There was also the naive part about her, the wanting to be good. I think Jon saw this through all her facade, trying to hide herself behind the titles, and then she had one immense grand gesture which pretty much crumbled his protective walls and he allowed himself to love that way again. Add to that the physical attraction they both felt. Jon is not made of stone. Don’t judge him too harshly. At least he didn’t go the Jamie way and threw Tyrion from a tower after saying “the things we do for love.” 🙂

  359. First of all, I’m grateful for experiencing so many signature moments with Game of Thrones, even if I’m disappointed on how this last season unfolded after the character arcs we’ve seen in season 7. This season was rushed and, in many scenes, the characters seemed different from what they were before for the sake of the plot points. If the showrunners knew the ending when they wrote season 7, the story should have been different then.
    I’m also thankful to Watchers on the Wall crew for so many wonderful articles that helped me understanding better this story. I saw the first three seasons in 2013. I loved it and found Winter is Coming.net. In the last four years, this was my main source of information about GoT.
    On the episode, I only imagine how powerful the last scene between Jon and Daenerys would be if his character wasn’t reduced to a bystander along season 8 and her character wasn’t turned into a 2D cartoonish villain in “The bells”. In this episode, the risen Dark Lady (a.k.a Queen of the Ashes) even earned the right to a Nazi vibe during her speech to her army (in these two last episodes, King’s Landing looked more like a place from 20th century than from Middle Ages). That shot with Drogon’s wings behind Daenerys, as beautiful as it was, had the purpose of reinforce the Evil Queen stereotype (it’s understandable after what happened in 8×05, but not after her journey in first 7 seasons).
    In “Iron Throne”, Daenerys lost completely her self-awareness. The best interpretations that I can find to her crimes in 8×05 is that she has given up to be a person and decided to embark on a journey of delusion. She talks about “liberating the world” by all means to a depleted army, something that she never really did or thought, even in the height of her power. She gives a crazy look to the Iron Throne. She doesn’t give a f..k about the people in the conversation with Jon (“They don’t get to choose”).
    I disagree that her decision to burn King’s Landing to the ground was a political calculated move. If it were, Daenerys wouldn’t have imprisoned Tyrion. She would have killed him. She wouldn’t have gotten alone in the throne room with Jon. I think the best interpretation to her acts in “The bells” is that she has gone mad or delusional, at least. Sadly, that turns her arc a bit pointless. Daenerys should fail in a more gradual and tragic way. Instead, she turned grey to black and died. She should have remained gray until the end, even if darker. As a character, Daenerys could be on the level of a Walter White. After how the heel turn unfolded, she maybe isn’t on the level of Anakin Skywalker. Daenerys could be one of the most brilliant and rounded characters to ever grace our screens. I feel that was a lost opportunity.
    On Jon, I have the same complain of many other viewers: he was made too passive this season. I remember season 4 and season 5, when he has really grown into a resourceful leader that took the initiative to solve the problems he had to face. He seemed more reluctant after his resurrection in season 6, but took again matters in his own hands in season 7, with the threat of the Army of the Dead. In this season, maybe he wasn’t able to find a way to deal with the tension between Daenerys and the Stark family. It wasn’t completely out of character. I agree, though, that he should have shown more resolve in stopping Daenerys after what she has done, remaining conflicted in his decision until the end, because, after all, he loved her and is human. It also could spare us form that horrible Tyrion speech about Daenerys arc. The audience should be able to judge characters by itself, rather than being given moral lessons. For me, that speech is one more proof of the insecurity of the writers on what they did to Daenerys (the other is that sequence of lines about the Targaryen madness in Episode 5 Previously On).
    However, I did like the feel of the last scene between Jon and Dany. It played out like a tragedy, as the characters deserved, even If I didn’t like the way to get there. And what happened next with Drogon was sublime (maybe the best part of the episode). Jon’s story was a tragic one: he had to be killed and resurrected to see with the things he did see and do the things he had to do, living an unrelentless battle between love and duty. At least, he got a window of hope in the end.
    The second part of the episode was rushed. Some decision had to be taken. Southern Westeros turned into an elective monarchy, as the Holy Roman Empire. Bran’s choice was a bit anticlimactic, and stranger after Sansa has granted northern independence. I expected the other lords would ask their independence as well, Yara Greyjoy above all (Daenerys promised Iron Islands independence in 6×09). Why these lords should accept a ruler who doesn’t come from the Six Kingdoms?
    The message of Bran as king can be ambiguous, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. On one hand, he’s the Internet of Westeros and can be more measured than any other ruler in the decisions he makes. On the other, they’re making an eventual Big Brother as king, which could have disastrous consequences.
    About the small council, there was only one thing that I liked: Davos. For me, this man should be Hand of the King. He was one of the few characters that I could like from the beginning to the end and it would be a poetic triumph for the smallfolk (a commoner from Flea Bottom that has risen high, deservedly). The role, instead, went to Tyrion, because he is a more important character. I was a bit surprised to see Sam as a master (Gilly deserved better).
    Bronn, for me, was an insult. The show tried an upbeat ending, and did it in some parts, but he couldn’t get itself away from a cynic message. For some characters, the pursuit of power corrupts you absolutely, but characters corrupted beforehand are rewarded. I enjoyed the character as a sidekick to Tyrion in earlier seasons, but he should be dead already. Dying in rescue of Jaime, during Field of Fire 2.0, would be a fitting end. But no, Bronn “If I told you to murder an infant girl still in her mother’s breast. Would you do it, without question? No. I’d ask how much” has the right to be Lord of Highgarden and the richest man in the country. Maybe involuntarily, the show sends a message that things haven’t really changed for the better.
    On the positive side, the episode accomplished the feel of a definitive ending, although many questions were left unanswered. Sansa and Arya had the most fitting ends to their journeys (Sophie was beautiful in her coronation scene). Their arcs have come full circle.

  360. Netheb,

    Oh please…..then why did she not defended Jon when they sent him back to the wall?

    It is because she’s a big mouth selfish traitor. She betrayed Jon.

  361. Flora Linden:

    And the Jaime/Cersei death should have been given to Dany and Drogon. The two last symbols of Old Valyria, meeting the end together as their world literally collapses around them.

    Uhm… I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

    Cersei and Jaime met their end together as their world literally collapsed around them. They were not last symbols of Old Valyria, Dany and Drogon were.

    The deaths of Cersei and Jaime were “given” to Dany and Drogon. They blasted the building that collapsed on Cersei and Jaime.

    Or did you want a more gruesome, personal killing scene?

  362. Danny:

    I simply think you are reading that scene wrong.Jon wasn’t being cynical.He was being truthful.He really did love Daenerys despite it all.He loved her.Of course Jon knew that what Daenerys did was horrific, he knew this in his heart and this is why he was so conflicted. People are not robots, they just don’t discard love in an instant.Love doesn’t die an instant.Jon loved her but couldn’t reach her and in the end, he had to do what was right for everyone else so he killed her.This doesn’t invalidate the fact that she was who she was to him.This isn’t even new to the character for goodness sake:1) He killed Qhorin Half Hand for duty’s sake.He killed him because Qhorin told him it was the only way and he needed to do it for the realm.2) He left Ygritte his first love for duty’s sake and to try to save the realm from a wildling invasion and finally he killed his kin, the woman he loved again for duty’s sake because as Tyrion told him, he was the shield that guards the realm of men.If there was one character that was consistent throughout the series it was very much Jon Snow.

    Exactly.

    I’d also like to add, to all those people whingeing that his parentage, R+L=J, was “insignificant” or “discarded” in the show.

    The way I see it – and this is subverting the trope of the hidden prince that triumphs in the end and accedes to his rightful throne – is that Jon’s ending was very, very satisfactory.

    He saved the world twice over, doesn’t get enough credit for it, is exiled to the Wall as a political problem.

    Goes beyond the Wall, to be a free man at long last.

    Not some King beyond the Wall, but maybe some village/clan leader, one among equals. Respected, even loved, for what he did for the Free Folk when they were facing annihilation. But not adulated. The Free Folk are always cheeky and ready to put down anybody who gets too big for their boots. Jon understands and loves it.

    So what was the meaning of R+L=J? Or various PTWP or Azor Ahai prophecies?

    Jon, the Targaryen prince who should’ve been the Targaryen king, ends the Targaryen dynasty and all Targaryen aspirations.

    For the realm, for the people. The Prince that was promised, who’d end a long night (of Targaryen tyranny) and bring light to the world. A better age. Nissa Nissaing Dany to bring forth lightbringer. Not a stupid fancy sword, but a more enlightened age. Enlightened, geddit?

    I rambled on in this vein already back after 803, when Jon didn’t kill the Night King. That maybe people in-universe and in our real world had interpreted the prophecy too literally, not realising it has been embellished, translated and interpreted throughout thousands of years.

    I never thought the story (not prophecy) of Nissa Nissa was a recipe for making a wow! magic sword! But as it turns out, Nissa Nissaing your love IS a huge, important thing.

    Jon got to know who his mother, who his parents were. Tried it on, but I think he’s happier with the identity he’d already become comfortable with, Jon Snow, Ned Stark’s bastard son. And now a man of the Free Folk, with his direwolf Ghost by his side. A beautiful, satisfying ending.

    I think Jon got the happiest ending.

  363. I only watch it today, couldn’t watch it before.

    So much to take in, all before the time jump worked for me 100% brilliant, emotional, I cried for Dany (yes I did), Drogon mourning was emotional, Tyrion with his siblings, briliant.

    Then the time jump. After that some things I liked some I don’t. Won’t go in what’s what in this recap, I write it in a newer article. I think the ending was great, but some parts were lacking and didn’t feel earned. It was not how do you say that, to much in one episode, but somehow it felt it needed more breathing. But I think that was more the problem of missing some scenes earlier in the season.

    Would the show have been better if it had more episodes, let’s say, 10 instead of 6 for the last season? Yes
    Was it bad? No
    Was it perfect? No
    Does it rank high compared to other shows? Yes
    Does it deserve the best ending of a show? No, but maybe it deserves high I haven’t let that sink in.

    And praise to Emilia as an actress, that interview posted here shows that she knew what was missing in the season and more episodes would have helped. But she understand why Dany went here, and she praise the writing. Emilia Clarke, you’re a wonderful person, stay that way. and I totally understand why you called your family, I would have freaked out too.

  364. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    That you for sharing that.

    Of course, GRRM can’t publicly admit that he’s internally screaming. Or how much responsibility he bears for this boondoggle…

    Sigh.

  365. talvikorppi,

    You misunderstood.

    I think Dany and Drogon should have died the way Cersei and Jaime did in the finale. That’s what I meant by the death scene being “given” to them. “Them” referring to Dany and Drogon. (Needless to say, I think Cersei and Jaime should have died differently – in the throne room, in my opinion.)

    And yes, Dany and Drogon are the last symbols of Old Valyria, that’s exactly what I wrote. The Mother of Dragons and her last child, together, as the end comes for them.

    Sorry I wasn’t clear in my original explanation.

  366. King AeJon,

    Sansa in 8.06: “If you look outside the walls of your city, you’ll find thousands of Northmen who will explain to you why harming Jon Snow is not in your interest.”

    But yeah, Sansa gives zero shit about Jon.

  367. Danny,

    I like both of your posts, and I agree on both Bran and Jon.
    I hadn’t thought about “kinslayer” (just Queenslayer and killed the (second) woman he loved). Makes him both akin to Jaime and Tyrion, in a way.

  368. Netheb: What was the point of “the lone wolf dies but the pack survives”??

    Everyone seems to forget the beginning of this sentence: “When winter comes,…”

    Maester of Grammar,
    You mean after she fawned over Jeoffrey because all she ever wanted was to be a queen?
    If I remember correctly, her dream had three aspects: find a beautiful prince, go to the capital and leave that shitty place the North was for her, and be queen of the seven kingdoms. She grew up.

    talvikorppi,
    Same view for me. And: he’s been freed from his two assigned identities, mixing a bit of each in his *own* way. Ned ruled reluctantly, but ruled out of duty, and it started a disaster. He refused to kill young Dany before she did anything, on moral grounds. Jon didn’t rule out of duty and this helped, maybe, end the disaster; he killed Dany after she did awful things, on moral grounds.

  369. AnnOther:
    Danny,

    I like both of your posts, and I agree on both Bran and Jon.
    I hadn’t thought about “kinslayer” (just Queenslayer and killed the (second) woman he loved). Makes him both akin to Jaime and Tyrion, in a way.

    The show, and books, strangely mirror, parrallel Jaime and Jon. There was that strange handrab show-only scene in S1 “It’s only for life.” Jaime mocking Jon for the young, idealistic boy he was. Mocking himself for the same thing.

    Kingslayer. Queenslayer.

    How does a wolf dare to judge a lion?

    It’s all very interesting.

  370. AnnOther,

    Jon killed Dany out of duty. Duty to the realm. He had to do the right thing, even when it went aginst his love.

    “Love is the death of duty,” said Maester Aemon. Jon quoted that in the Tyrion/Jon scene. I knew by then Jon had won his internal struggle. He cried, ffs! All Tyrion said afterwards was just filler. Oh, and Jon knew he couldn’t just flat it out say it, the Unsullied guards outside the flimsy door.

  371. Netheb,

    “Not even crowning of Sansa could make it sweeter. She ends up utterly alone without her pack.”

    That’s what she always wanted so that the price she’ll have to pay. She looked ridiculous wearing a tree; that big mouthed selfish traitor.

  372. Speaking of sequels, I believe that in 5 or ten years someone will think very seriously about going down that road. I mean, the money they can make will be the same if not loads more than hbo made out of this show. Let’s face it, besides maybe Peter Dinklage and one or two others, the cast weren’t the best actors in the world and may not get as much well paying work that they got with got. I’m sure in a few years time if asked they would jump at the chance to earn 500k to a million an episode.
    Having said that, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Drogon flew straight to the red temple of volantis and laid danaerys at kinvaras feet and said….”SAY THE WORDS OR I’LL FRY YOUR ASS!!”
    That would make a sequel very interesting indeed.

  373. Sansahtr,

    Perhaps you should go spew your Sansa hate elsewhere lol. You’re making a fool of yourself ¯_(ツ)_/¯

  374. On one hand we have you complaining the ending is too Disney and others complaining the ending is too bitter. Surely this highlights its bitter sweet and people see things very differently.

  375. On one hand we have you complaining the ending is too Disney and others complaining the ending is too bitter. Surely this highlights its bitter sweet and people see things very differently.

    D&D and GRRM clearly cannot please everyone.

  376. THAt idea of Jon killing Greyworm is good as I believe he deserved death for blatant war crimes, I also liked Drogon killing the unsullied and spawning Dothraki however how would Jon end up in the North and not King in that scenario? Clearly GRRM has stated Jon goes North at the end, D&D didn’t make it up.

  377. Oscar,

    Thanks for the praise 🙂

    I can totally see GRRM ending with Daenerys becoming power-obsessed in the end and Jon “saving” the Realm, and not getting recognized for it (except by Sansa, Arya AND probably Sam and Davos) and settling with the Wildlings without claiming his Targaryen heritage. But ideally we should have gotten more character development to get there, and a stronger plot. Btw, I am very happy with GoT, it’s only a pity the landing was turbulent.

    Jon Snowed,

    Jon could wilfully refuse to wear the crown (Aemon did before), and maybe he even thinks that men shouldn’t be led by a hereditary dynasty, he got used to the NW or the Wildlings where people are (more or less) given what they earn, not by their titles.

    In fact, even in the series it is somewhat contradictory in the end, because up till S8E5 everyone is supposed to want to follow Jon because they love him, yet fear Daenerys, but after he kills her, no one actually cares about him anymore? So it seems nobody wanted him to lead them in the first place, at least up until the war was done. I can actually follow that the Lords of Westeros don’t really want a Northern bastard as King above them, and Jon wouldn’t want to command them either, so ending with some kind of chosen leader doesn’t seem impossible, especially if the High Lords realize that all becoming independent will again lead to warfare among them.

    Ghostgirl,

    Thanks. I like it too, but it’s unfortunately too conventional 😉 It needs some more struggles to fit in the GoT universe. I am trying to write a book myself, so I need to keep the best plots for myself.

    Jon Snowed,

    In general, I have the impression that the “problem” is the “bitter” part is reserved for the two main characters, and the “sweet” part for everyone else. That is okay for a tragedy, but I am a little bit bothered by the rushed story of the two protagonists and some plot holes (I’d prefer development above surprises).

    Also, I just started wondering, is Arya sure that she will find land before half of the food on her ship runs out? If you consider who Columbus got on his ships as the crew, she’ll need her assassin qualities to avoid a mutiny. Bran could have sent Jon with her, it would have been considered a death penalty.

  378. Efi,

    You obviously have a right to your opinion, but I gotta say this about it; there was absolutely NO sexual tension between Jon and Sansa! Where you saw that, I have NO idea. They were only just finding their commonality through their sibling relationship, which Sansa hadn’t wanted as a child, and which Jon had always craved. She was making up for the mistreatment of Jon by her mother by being supportive and showing kindness where he hadn’t had any from Catelyn. And that’s a horrible thought…two children raised as brother and sister (Cersei and Jaime notwithstanding) by an honorable father to embark on an incestuous relationship. Awful, awful thought.

  379. Wolfish,

    He doesn’t need a Heart Tree to Greensee…in the lore, Greenseers could see from the faces of their Heart Trees, which is not the same. When Bran was at WF with Sam in his study, he saw the past through Greenseeing when he watched his aunt give Ned her newborn soon. He wasn’t touching the weirwood at all during that scene and others.

  380. Dejah,

    You obviously haven’t read the books, and haven’t noticed the foreshadowing, which is subtle, but there’s tons of it. I have to admit though that since it didn’t make it on screen, it’s only an interpretation.
    My opinion rests mostly on framing of their common scenes, blocking and lighting. There’s ample evidence about it that even made it on screen with particular lines and into the commentary of season 8 (I’m not sure about the commentary of previous seasons because I haven’t watched it).
    Sansa and Jon were being set up as a ruling and romantic couple, a continuation of Ned-Cat. Their scenes paralleled Ned-Cat’s scenes, down to LF’s chocking scene by Jon, where the issue was “touch my sister and I’ll kill you myself”. It wasn’t just “stay away from my sister”, it was “touch my sister”. And then again, LF suggests that Dany and Jon might marry, and Sansa is disturbed, and then there follows the frosty reception of Daenerys in Winterfell, and the “did you bend the knee because you love her” scene. There was no point to include that, it would suffice to talk about whether Dany is good queen or not. But they went there, and in the behind the scenes the director confirmed that Sansa is jealous of Daenerys. But why? It’s not just about power. Sansa has been offered power before, by the lords, LF, and Tyrion in 8.4 only to reject it. Sansa doesn’t want power, she just wants Jon. She didn’t have to ask Jon if he loved her, because it wouldn’t make any difference to the narrative even if he did; she didn’t have to get up from the table when she saw Jon smiling at Dany; she didn’t have to tell Tyrion about Jon’s parentage; she didn’t have to come down to KL to save him by threatening with another war if anything happened to him. But, she did all these things. Why? As Tyrion said, “why provoke her”?
    And Jon in season 8 became a wall between Dany and Sansa. For him it was always “I’ll protect you I promise”. Jon was watching Daenerys threaten Sansa; in ep 1, 4, 5 and 6 Dany hurled threats against her, and he decided to kill her once Tyrion pointed out that Sansa would be Daenerys’ first victim after KL.
    It is valid to think that after all, if it wasn’t addressed, it wasn’t an issue. No one knows “what would have happened if…” But it still remains a fact that the love Jon and Sansa share has been looming particularly evident over season 8 from the first ep to the last and it has been the catalyst for things to happen. If you look closely, Jon has never looked at Daenerys the way he looks at Sansa.

    Ned was honorable, huh? I remind you he was a traitor to king Robert by raising Jon.

    Jamie and Jon are parallels, actually. They do things exactly the same way:
    – Jamie member of a celibate corps, the kingsguard; Jon member of a celibate corps, the Night’s Watch.
    – has his sword hand maimed; has his sword hand burned, same height (from the books).
    – kills a king; kills a queen
    – in love with a sister; in love with a cousin/former sister?
    – father of bastard children; what about Jon in the context of the ending the showrunners have given us? It’s a fact that the Night’s Watch is under the northern queen’s authority. Jon is now actually quite close to Sansa. Jon is supposed to not father any children. Will he not, though?
    You may answer all the questions arising yourself. This end is open.

  381. Efi,

    You’re absolutely right. Unfortunately D&D would never let them acknowledge that. And maybe that’s for the better bc the amount of Sansa hate is already sky high.

    Jon and Sansa love each other deeply imo, but can’t act on their feelings because they’re siblings and by the time they realise they’re cousins, Jon is deep in it with Daenerys. Maybe Jonsa is meant to be a tragic and unfulfilled romance, something both sweet and bitter.

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