The Directors Guild of America just announced the nominees for its 72nd annual award, and Game of Thrones is among them not once but twice, thanks to the marvelous directors behind its final season. As you may recall, David Nutter took on most of the work, with “Winterfell”, “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”, and “The Last of the Starks”; Miguel Sapochnik directed the battle episodes, “The Long Night” and “The Bells”; while showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss helmed the series finale, “The Iron Throne.”
You’ll not be shocked to learn which two of these directors got nominated, but you may be surprised about the episodes selected to highlight their directorship.
For the ‘Outstanding Directorial Achievement in Dramatic Series’ category at the upcoming 2019 DGA Awards, there are five nominees; shockingly (or perhaps not so much), they are all nominated for their work on HBO series. All. Of. Them.
Thrones veteran David Nutter, who directed the iconic “The Reins of Castamere” and the Emmy and DGA award-winning “Mother’s Mercy”, is nominated for “The Last of the Starks” (and not for “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” as one may have thought).
Of course, there is also Miguel Sapochnik, who since season five has directed some of the most jaw-dropping Game of Thrones episodes, such as the horrifying “Hardhome”, the Emmy and DGA award-winning “Battle of the Bastards”, and my personal favorite “The Winds of Winter”. Sapochnik has an impressive track-record that continued in his return for the final season; and so, he is deservedly nominated for “The Long Night.”
The other entries for ‘Outstanding Directorial Achievement in Dramatic Series’ are Nicole Kassell for Watchmen’s “It’s Summer and We’re Running Out of Ice”, Stephen Williams for Watchmen’s “This Extraordinary Being”, and Mark Mylod (who’s also directed Thrones in the past) for Succession’s “This Is Not For Tears.”
Though in its final year Game of Thrones enjoyed some of the strongest and most confident directing in the show’s history, this time it has serious competition, especially with Watchmen. Then again, though the Thrones vote may be split because of the two nominations, the same could happen to Watchmen. Or Succession could win after all!
We’ll see soon enough, as the 72nd DGA awards will be celebrated on January 25.
I guess that, no matter what happens, HBO wins.
This is what they deserve.
mau,
I agree. Mr. Nutter and Mr. Sapochnik are true masters.
I must say I am shocked that A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was not nominated that for me at least is a stellar episode and along with the Long Night is the pinnacle of S8.
Jon Snowed,
“A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” is a great episode, but it is not a challenging episode to direct. The nomination for “The Last of the Starks” makes sense. I think Nutter chose it himself, as he did at the Emmys. Sapochnik chose “The Long Night” as submission for the same reasons.
What is impressing in “The last of the Starks” is the minutely filmed and edited facial expressions of the heroes. Unlike other episodes this one has some real personal drama and the feeling is conveyed without words, i.e. in the scenes of the feast, the Jon-Dany “stay nobody” scene, the council scene, the Sansa-Tyrion scene, the execution of Missandei. So I believe that it truly deserves a nomination.
I haven’t seen the other nominated series, but unless they’re that good and that dramatic I believe “The last of the Starks” has good chances. It is also to their credit that they chose this episode that is “quiet” on the surface but “boiling” underneath. [unlike ep 2 which is quiet all the way and the action episodes]
Well done.
• I have not seen “Succession.” After Mylod’s dubious directorial decisions in S6 (e.g., oblivious Arya getting gut-stabbed and then jumping out of sick bed to run decathlon), I would’ve thought he’d be on indefinite double probation by the Directors Guild of America.
Maybe he self-corrected before directing his “Succession” episode.
• As for GoT’s two nominees: “Last of the Starks” is a surprise. Then again, I’m not sure what the criteria are for the directing award. It can’t really depend on the script, because I assume a director can only portray what’s on the page, including any stage directions. I’m not sure how much leeway a director has to “interpret” a script.
• A director’s professional peers must know what qualifies as excellent direction. So I’ll trust that “The Last of the Starks” was a worthy choice.
The feast scene was probably the most challenging scene to direct in the last season, if we don’t count action scenes ofc.
Nutter said that it was 17 pages long and it was one of the first scenes they did for S8.
Efi,
Interesting observations about filming to capture the “facial expressions” of the heroes. Here’s a brief scene from S8e4 that I enjoyed: Sandor leaving WF for KL when Arya rides up to join him.
The director (and cinematographer?) framed Sandor’s face so you could see his initial exasperation (“For f*ck’s sake!”).
Then both characters ride off together side by side, chatting like old times, finishing with an inside joke:
Sandor: “Going to leave me to die again if I get hurt?
Arya: “Probably.”
(They both chuckle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnI0Nkcgi3U
at 1:10 – 1:19
I honestly didn’t know there were so many awards!!
And Ten Bears, I’m not sure if my use of “honestly” is the same sin as saying “literally”. I may need to check with Stannis. To me it’s a way of saying, “Well maybe I should have known, and I’m a bit embarrassed for not knowing. People may not believe that I don’t know, so I really am being honest with you that I don’t know…” But it’s true. I didn’t realize there were so many different Award organizations out there. I’m voting for Matt Shakman for “most surprised how awesome he was” director for season 7’s Spoils of War.
Tron79,
“Honestly” isn’t a sin. 🤓 As you explained, it’s a way for someone to express that he should have known something – and others might assume that he did in fact know – when he truly didn’t.
Agree 100% with Matt Shakman for “Unexpectedly Awesome” Director Award for “Spoils of War.” Still hard to believe it was one of the shortest GoT episodes.*
* In a way, it reminded me of “Hardhome”: Some great character moments in the first half, followed by a non-stop, edge-of-your-seat action sequence in the second half, concluding with silence…
other than Jaime should have been dead, but that’s not his fault. The reveal he was still alive came next episode. I “honestly” thought that was the end for Jaime after his gallant but foolish charge.
Back in the “old days” of GoT when “gallant but foolish” had consequences, Jaime would have drowned in his armor if he weren’t roasted alive first.
How he ever surfaced alive in the next episode, far away from the Field of Fire and the Dothrakis, must have required some impressive underwater swimming and breath-holding by Bronn. (Give that man his castles and highborn wife!)
Honestly, I’m pulling for Watchmen here. “This Extraordinary Being” was a fantastic episode and Stephen Williams deserves to be acknowledged for that.
I could pick apart every battle and moment from the earlier seasons.
So, no news on the spin off series in quite some time, eh?
Yeah, as much as I love GOT, there were elements like this scene that made me shake my head. The scene would have been a tragic end for Jaime but it felt like a perfect end to the episode. At some point D&D decided the plot armor was strong with him (Jaime). With the weight of his actual armor, there’s just no way Bronn could have pulled him to the surface. And how can I end talking about “Spoils of War” without talking about Arya! That’s the episode of her amazing sparring session with Brienne that ends up foreshadowing the now famous dagger drop move. Spoils of War has to rank up very high in my ultimate list. And you’re right, it’s one of the shortest episodes! I still have lots of work to do on my personal rankings of all 73 episodes, but Spoils of War has to rank way up there for me.
Tron79,
It is possible that Bronn pulled Jaime to the surface. I don’t understand why so many people can’t understand that.
I think you raise a really good point here with the Jamie surving in his armour then appearing further downstream without anyone seeing him, safely away from thousands of Dothraki savages. Things like this just didn’t seem to happen in the first six seasons yet there were several such moments in the final two seasons that stretched plausible belief. Yes you had Arya stabbing in S6, Tywin turning up at Blackwater, Stannis at the Wall but they overall worked better.
I doubt we will ever know why it became more prevelant but I strongly suspect it was because the show runners were working off a loose outline (I think for S6 GRRM probably had a lot more meat to share with them) so had to invent more plot lines, with no set-up and that they also gave less thought about continuity due to having to create more material (not just writing but even sets/locations etc).
Jon Snowed,
I mean GRRM literally did the same thing with Tyrion in ADWD.
I don’t know how hard it is to pull a 200 pound man in armor to the surface but it seems pretty darn difficult. He looked at least 20 feet down. As others have said it’s even harder to believe Bronn pulled him that far away from the battle. Bronn should enter the Castle Swim series in Ireland. I can’t imagine how well he would do not having to drag a 200 pound man in armor behind him. It was just a far cry from having no plot armor at all in early seasons with losing Ned, Robb and others.
This story had plot armor since the beginning. And as the show and the books progressed it was there more and more.
Killing Robb is not an excuse for death fake outs that GRRM wrote for Tyrion, Brienne, Davos and the rest.
That is true about the books. You can never tell who’s really dead in the books.
Ten Bears,
Lol, of course, I forgot Sandor, but I preferred him in the feast.
I like the women; Sansa and Daenerys. The men were done dirty imo; bad lighting; poor fellas were always in the dark (well, apart from Sandor in the scene you linked).
Jon Snowed,
There was plot armour since the beginning of the show. Plot armour is plot armour and to say it was worse in the last two seasons is not right. Rewatch the Battle of Blackwater a episode written by GRRM himself. This episode has so much plot armour but no one is complaining. I know why, because GRRM wrote this episode and his work of course can’t be criticized. Hypocritical fandom.
The Arya stabbing is surviveable and the Dotharki and Dany didn’t know how Jaime Lannister looks like, so why should they care about two random Lannister soldiers in the water since the Dotharki can’t even swim… ?!
I think the problem is that people because of RW and Ned’s death see GoT/ASOIAF as something better than LOTR or Harry Potter in terms of plot armor and actions have consequences but I don’t really feel that’s true. Arya and Tyrion survived so many impossible situations in both mediums.
If people accept that GoT is well written blockbuster and not some high art it will be easier to accept plot armor.
Not to mention in order for LF to look like mastermind both GRRM and D&D had to make everyone around him act like fools in order for his nonsensical plans to work.
But both GoT and ASOIAF created this false reputation that no one is safe and anything can happen so people expect more. I mean that is the problem they created with marketing of the show, but I guess I never believed them, so I didn’t feel betrayed.
I mean if we speak about really major characters that the show killed it was false protagonists Ned and Robb and then at the very end of the story Cersei, Jaime and Daenerys. Nothing that revolutionary when you think about it, once you realise they used very smart “false protagonist” trick. Every other character that died was secondary just like in every other conventional fantasy story.
Jon Snowed,
A loose outline doesn’t excuse common logic disappearing somewhere in the Amber Alert announcements.
Of course somebody would have thought that the armor of a regular soldier weighed in the middle ages about 30 kilos; and that of a knight double as much with all the metal and the leather.
But the temptation was far too great; they simply had to recreate St. George killing the dragon. Truth be told, Jamie’s charge was a very good moment, both narratively and visually.
Of course then Jamie would have to be saved; what better way to do it other than ala Michael Strogoff? Minor thing, Michael wasn’t armored (and he was blind, but it’s beside the point).
The people who thought of St. George in this scene would have thought that little thing that is the weight of the armor, but they ignored it for pulling a Michael Strogoff too.
It’s called poetic licence and it’s not a bad thing.
[I suppose when things like that pile up in combination with a not-so-great story (to put it mildly) then it gets worse and people tend to examine them closely because the counterweight of a good story doesn’t exist]
Man said “If people accept that GoT is well written blockbuster and not some high art it will be easier to accept plot amor.” I would also say that I don’t think ASOIAF is “high” literature. It’s a rip-roarer of a tale with characters I came to care about (or hate) and I wanted to know what came next. I’ll give GRRM kudos for creating a character in Dany that went to the dark side – I didn’t really see that coming but if I could come to see a better side to Jaime after ASOS I have to accept that it’s as plausible for a character I started off having sympathy for in GoT (GoT the book) to go bad. I’m going to mention something that I wondered about when reading the books but I hope the spoiler code “takes” in case there is anybody reading this who hasn’t finished or even begun the (as yet published) books
The show combined the characters of Gendry and Edric Storm. In the books where Lady Stoneheart takes over leadership of the BWB why the heck I wondered, didn’t he tell her that he had met with Arya?[/ spoiler]
I’m not saying that I agreed with every decision the show runners made in adaptation and while I didn’t mind the spectacle of Jaime and the dragon I’m not sure how feasible the event depicted was (and before anybody says anything “smart” about dragons not being real I am aware of that. I mentioned on an earlier thread that I read one of Bernard Knight’s historical whodunnits “Crowner’s Crusade” which mentions some knights on board a ship having taken their armour off because there some historical character from medieval times had fallen into a river and drowned and they didn’t want to undergo similar misfortunes. It’s a while since I read the book so I can’t remember the identity of the person who unfortunately fell into the river. Bernard Knight is quite well on in his 80s now and at one time worked as a forensic pathologist as well as a writer. If Bernard Knight is still cranking novels out in his 80s maybe GRRM can do likewise.
Anybody have an idea why the spoiler code isn’t working for me? I copied over the spoiler code and pasted it and then typed to replace the placeholder wording.
Although Bernard Knight’s book was a work of fiction the historical person who fell into a river actually existed.
Sometimes I use a < bracket instead of the [ bracket.
Spoiler has to use the [ bracket. Could that be it?
So, it’s a daunting task to rate all 73 episodes, so I had an idea to come up with a number of scoring factors to use after re-watching each episode. Here’s a starting point. They are a bit generic right now. Perhaps others have ideas on what factors to use.
Each factor you rate from 1 to 10 with 10 being best and 1 being worst. I also have a “problems” factor where you deduct points from the episode… Here’s what I have so far… A couple I made 1 to 20 since I thought those were more important… I’m sure I’m leaving out some things…
Perhaps others may want to join in to have a re-watch and scoring while we wait for more news on the prequel and TWOW release…
Enjoyment factor 1 to 20
Favorite character’s role in episode 1 to 10
Music 1 to 10
Surprises 1 to 10
Fear Factor 1 to 10 How anxious did you feel during the episode
Visuals (VFX) 1 to 10
Directing 1 to 10
Problems -1 to -20 Plot holes, believably, etc.
Acting 1 to 10
Memorable moments 1 to 20
Script 1 to 10
Dame of Mercia,
I believe we are missing a PoV inside the Brotherhood since Arya left them. We don’t know what LSH knows and considering the suspicion among these characters (and why would Gentry himself trust LSH the way she is), the readers do not yet know who has told what to whom. Most inconsistencies like this one happen very deliberately on Martin’s part and are supposed to lead to interesting revelations/developments when the time comes.
Also, LSH is not Catelyn Stark anymore. It puzzled me that Brienne was on a quest for finding Sansa and she diverted her to Jamie with a view (most probably) to the Freys. Whether she knew about Arya or not, it tells me that LSH is too focused on revenge right now (which will make her reunion with Arya very interesting, if indeed it happens).
Could that knight be Frederic I Hohenstaufen? The sources are all over the event of his drowning during the 3d Crusade (I believe 1190 or 1191). I didn’t know he was wearing his armor. He was a mighty Holy Roman Emperor blah, blah, blah… [despite his 100% German name]
It is a fact well known among us medievalists, if you want to kill knights, trap them in marshlands. You can butcher them easily, lol.
You missed removing the space between the last / spoiler]. It should be /spoiler (and the bracket).
Tron79,
– It looks like you’ve covered most of the components of an episode scoring system. Hmm. How would we account for intangibles? Would “Memorable Moments 1 – 20” include the high thread count interpersonal scenes that many of us relish? For me, the inclusion of such scenes is a “superfactor” – and the reason why S4e7 is my all-time #1 episode.
– “Favorite character’s role in episode 1-10” would account for how each of us subjectively weights an episode’s score. It’s no mystery how that impacts my scoring. 👸🏻 🗡
On that note… Here’s a short fan video Maisie Williams appreciated and re-posted on Twitter:
“Maisie Williams in 42 seconds”
https://twitter.com/Igbtmaisie/status/1193003178893160449
OK.. “Interpersonal Threadcount” needs to be another 1 – 20 factor then!
Memorable moments to me were things like Sandor digging graves for the farmer and his daughter… Chicken of course… Lots of scenes that just stand out forever and never leave my brain…
I just watched the 42 seconds. So awesome! Thanks.
Ten Bears,
I think my categories still need some major tweaking. I will work on it tonight. This way I can come up with a composite score for each season and ranked results by season too. But I have to put more thought into the categories.
Efi and Tron,
Thank you for your information. Efi the person you name might be correct. Of course I only have Bernard Knight’s say-so that the emperor was wearing his armour but he (BK) gives references. It’s a while since I read the novel which has long since been returned to my local public library.
Oh yes, the books had “J______ L______ sends his regards” rather than “The Lannisters send their regards” so LSH thought Jaime was complicit with the Red Wedding.
As I say Bernard Knight is still writing well into his 80s so perhaps we will find out one day if there is a method in Mr Martin’s inconsistencies.
As an exercise to illustrate the “high thread count” scenes in S4e7 (“Mockingbird”), I started to excerpt the dialogue in those scenes. The resulting text was way too long. Then I tried to cut and paste links to the videos of the scenes. Even with brief caption, that was taking too long.
I also realized the transcript of the (full) episode was quite lengthy and densely packed with great dialogue and dramatic moments, even in scenes that weren’t necessarily my favorites. (For example, though I’m not a LF fan, the final segment in the Vale concluding with Lysa sailing through the Moon Door was pretty striking; as a non-book reader I didn’t see that coming.)
That episode also had some memorable speeches. (Would those be included in your tentative scorecard’s categories?)
There are too many to list or recite. Just a few = Oberyn, ending with “I will be your champion,” Sandor, starting with “Shut up about it! Shut up about everything!”… “Wish I’d never laid eyes on you!” and ending with “You think you’re on your own?”; Hot Pie, “You CANNOT give up on the gravy!”; Arya, “Nothing is just nothing.” ….
Damn it! I can’t even mention a few highlights without droning on and on.
Ten Bears,
OK. I thought alot more about this. Let me know if you have any other suggestions, but these are the ones that really impact me when watching an episode. You can change the weighting based on what elements impact you the most. For example, I’m heavily impacted by music, so I have that as a possible 20, where you may not rate it as high as me for your enjoyment. It ended up being a possible 150 points. The “Problems” category deducts up to 20 points. You can make these funnier if you want. You’re better than me! But I think this captures what I was going for. I can see using this immediately after re-watching an episode and then tallying the results by season, etc… to come up with my rankings for the 73 episodes. I’m a bit wordy on some of these, but I think it helps explain what I was going for.
You just finished re-watching the episode. Record your reactions
Emotional reaction: I absolutely loved this episode!!! 20 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Impact of Surprises: OMG, I didn’t see that coming 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Favorite Character’s impact: This was a tremendous episode for my favorite character(s) 20 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Music: Ramin Djawadi’s musical score blew me away this episode and was a perfect compliment to the action. 20 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Character bonding: This episode had great scenes that showed tremendous chemistry between characters. 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Soliliquies and Duets: This episode had some great character speeches or scenes where two characters had amazing dialogue together. 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Visuals: I’ve never seen anything like this done on TV before. The visual impact was incredible. (VFX, scenes that took a tremendous amount of work by the crew, etc) 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Secondary Character: There was a secondary character who I loved in this episode who was a scene stealer. 5 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Director: The director of this episode made tremendous choices
(or showed great artistry, mastery of POV, avoided battle fatigue, etc.) 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Etched in My Brain: There were scenes in this episode that I will never forget and will be etched in my brain forever. 20 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Heart: There were scenes in this episode that made me cry (or want to cry) 10 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Suspense: I felt extremely anxious and scared watching this episode. 5 is totally agree and 1 is totally disagree
Problems: There were scenes in this episode that made no sense at all
or there were scenes that were too objectionable to be considered entertainment
Deduct -20 for totally agree and 0 for totally disagree
Tron79,
Thank you for the categories. I will start my rewatch and use these categories to rate the episodes and seasons.
Tron79,
It is important that the episodes are evaluate objectively as possible and without having the books in mind. Only the show. For example with Dorne.
Tron79,
“Choosing sides is what made things so horrible”.
I don’t think that will happen LK.
I don’t really get what you’re saying about choosing sides. Are you talking about the book vs show? I’ve read the books but I didn’t include a book comparison category. I see the book and show as two different things so i wasn’t thinking I needed to compare the books to be able to rate the episodes but perhaps that’s important to some others on how much they enjoyed the episode. Anyway I don’t know what you meant about sides.
Yeah I think it’s true that the show stands on its own merits. I think if i don’t like a particular story line in that episode it won’t rate highly in a number of my categories anyway.
Tron79,
IMO, there will always be episodes that don’t always fit the general grading criteria. I did a GoT episode rating a year or so ago, and it was harder than I thought it would be. There are some episodes that aren’t necessarily amazing from a technical standpoint, nor do they have any monumental moments, game-changing moments, etc…, but they are just fun to watch. I would use season 2 episode 5 as my example. I never found this episode to particularly monumental in any technical terms, writing terms, cgi, etc… It doesn’t stand out with any game-changing moments. It’s just a fun episode to watch. I always found episodes like that hard to grade.
What I did instead was simply go season by season. I would just look at all the episodes, and ask myself which one would I rather watch the most if I had the option to watch any of them? For example, in season 6, would I rather watch BOTB or TWOW? Just keep doing that until you’re done with each season. Then, incorporate all the seasons together. For example, would your favorite episode from season 7 be as high on the list as your second favorite episode from season 6?, etc…
Hope that makes sense.
Mr Derp,
Thanks that does make sense and sounds like a good method. For me it was totally overwhelming to think of how I would rate all 73 episodes in order. It’s easy for me to think of the episodes i liked the most and the ones I liked the least but it’s all the ones in the middle that are difficult for me to rate against each other. I think your method makes it more manageable. I did put in a pure enjoyment category because I think that’s really important and I gave that more weight than the director for example. I think I’m going to try my method. It can be fun to see the stats add up and see what happens. I think you are right that it could be challenging. I’ll experiment first with an episode or two to see how the ratings work or if they could use some tweaking. I think I may need to make “problems” deduct up to 40. I was trying to keep things more positive In the ratings but problems can really impact the overall enjoyment for me and may need to deduct more than 20 to get a realistic picture. Perhaps overall emotional enjoyment (my first category) could be weighted at 30 or 40. Hopefully it won’t become like Olympic ice skating where the scores make no sense anymore because it’s too complicated. I think your method would work and may be less complicated. For me I think the numbers will make the process less overwhelming for me and kind of fun to see how the stats turn out but may need some beta testing with a couple episodes to see how it feels.
This has become a great discussion on how to evaluate a piece of fiction, like a TV episode 🙂 I’ve really enjoyed reading through these thought processes 🙂
My thoughts can be a bit obsessive as you can see 🙂
Mr. Derp’s method may work well for a March Madness bracket of sorts where you start with 73 teams and make it down to the final 4, etc… My daughter is the Espn 24/7 person so I have to keep up on my sports analogies or I have nothing I can say to her! Just to prove my point about her being a good model for HDM Daemon’s, during the end of the Seahawks and Green Bay game she lined up about 5 Angry bird stuffed animals on the couch to route for the Seahawks while she held her favorite. She’s in her mid 20’s btw, so it’s a bit unusual to see, but we go with it. Unfortunately, the Seahawks did not prevail. But I have to work on my college basketball knowledge now that March Madness is coming and brackets will be coming out to fill out where I have no idea what to choose. But I could see a GOT bracket of sorts using Mr. Derp’s method of ranking… But for me, I think I will still give it a go with the stats method. It will cut into my HDM reading time. I’m about 1/2 way through the first book. But it’s really bugging me to come up with my own 73 list in order and it will take a considerable amount of time to complete the list. But I can see posting my season rankings as I get to the end of each season…
Tron79,
I mean ranking the episodes.
Tron79,
Sometimes mood is a factor too for me when ranking episodes.
You might be in the mood to watch a particular episode one day, but not so much the next day. That probably affects my episode rankings more than any other factor.
Tron79,
I wonder if I’m alone in subconsciously applying (what I’ll call for now) “Retrospective Downgrading” of an episode, based on what happened later.
Take for example, “Battle of the Bastards”:
– I was already in the minority about this episode since I wasn’t thrilled with the Team Bolton vs. Team Stark battle outside WF; in addition, the KotV ex machina didn’t work for me, and Sansa’s unexplained concealment of KotV made her look duplicitous or selfish.
– However, I really liked the Battle of Mereen portion of the episode, especially Dany’s retort to that overconfident clown who asserted “Your reign, is over,” and the entire Dany + Dragons vs. Masters’ Armada sequence.
Tyrion and Grey Worm also got to shine in the Mereen portion of BoB. (Loved Grey Worm’s neck-slice of the two Masters standing up, instead of the trembling Master on his knees, followed by Tyrion’s warning to the still-trembling Master, with a pat on the shoulder as he strolled away.)
– Also, as I think I’ve commented before, the visual of Dany’s three dragons’ streaming fire in unison from the sky, roasting + boiling the ship, made for an enjoyable rewatch – and a still image that became one of my favorite screensavers.
• Here’s the problem: Knowing now what I didn’t know then, has sort of lessened my appreciation in hindsight:
– If there was a unifying theme of that Mereen segment of BoB, it was Dany using methods to prevail against her adversary that maximized “optics” while minimizing casualties:
– With the Masters’ invasion fleet bombarding Mereen, Dany’s initial impulse was to destroy all of the Masters’ armies and navies and “return their cities to the dirt.’’ At Tyrion’s urging, Dany chose a surgical strike that nonetheless made an impression, i.e., flame-broiling a single ship.
– For the Masters’ treachery in violating the peace treaty brokered by Tyrion, Dany didn’t punish them all – but still required that one of them be executed to teach them a lesson. (Grey Worm got two for the price of one after the two cowardly Masters tried to throw the third one under the bus.)
– As reflected in Tyrion’s parting warning, Dany had used a surgical demonstration of the lethality her WMDs as a show of force, to give the Masters second thoughts should they entertain any bright ideas about starting another war in the future.
– During the parlay with the three Masters’ representatives, Grey Worm (I think… maybe Tyrion?) conveyed to the Masters’ guardsmen that they had the choice of either (A) fighting for their leaders who wouldn’t for them; or (B) laying down their arms and going home to their families. They all chose option B.
– Dany achieved her objective of winning the war through her enemies’ unconditional surrender before and without going full-on fire & blood, and without decimating their soldiers and civilians: An elegant, preemptive “shock and awe” counterattack that convincingly demonstrated to her enemies that she was more than capable of annihilating them – while showing them that she was not a bloodthirsty conquerer. Perhaps she gained their capitulation to her rule through “fear,” but she did so with minimal loss of life. She also showed the enemy combatants that she was merciful and therefore they need not fight to the death.
– I think there’s a Latin phrase that roughly translates to “Kill or be killed.”
– I recall that phrase being used to describe the mindset of soldiers who may not necessarily agree with their leaders and might even detest them. They might realize that their military leadership or monarch(s) are power-hungry warmongers willing to use the soldiers as cannon fodder in pursuit of selfish aims. The soldiers may actively oppose the reasons for launching a war of aggression.
– And, as explained by the friendly Lannister soldiers (aka the Ed Sheeran Regiment) in S7e1, echoing the theme of the books! “Broken Man” speech, armies weren’t ordinarily composed of only professional warriors. Rather, their ranks consisted primarily of conscripts: young men and boys forced to leave their farms and families to “fight in someone else’s war.” At least on the show, standing armies were the exception. When it came to battles and wars, when the lords “called their banners,” untrained and ill-equipped commoners and “small folk“ had to drop everything and march off to war.
– Yet, the soldiers go into battle anyway, and fight with whatever zeal they can muster, because of the “kill or be killed” axiom. Their enemies wouldn’t show mercy. Battles were slaughterfests.
Peaceful surrender without consequences wasn’t an accepted concept, e.g., “lay down your weapons and go home to your families.”
– From the portrayals of conflicts on the show (e.g., NW vs. Wildlings; Boltons vs. Stannis, etc.), defeated or surrendering combatants were often executed – if for no other reason than their captors didn’t have the resources to feed and house them.
– From other incidents on the show (like Tywin’s retribution against upstarts [the Raynes?] memorialized in song in “The Rains of Castamere” and recounted by Cersei to Margaery; Tyrion’s musing during the Battle of the Blackwater about his likely fate in the event Stannis won), defeated adversaries and their families often had their “heads on a spike” or had their rotting corpses strung up in public.
– POWs were only kept alive if they had value as hostages.
(Even then, as Lord Karstark demonstrated, the captors’ bannermen’s default setting was to kill hostages as a tit-for-tat act of revenge. I suppose
the victor of a battle could also try to use surrendering soldiers to supplement his forces, e.g., like Stannis’s “bend the kneel or die” ultimatum to Mance to either agree to join his army, or fry. I’m not sure how commonplace that was; Dany resorted to a similar “kneel or fry” ultimatum to the Lannister POWs after Field of Fire 2.0.)
– Giving enemy combatants a choice between continuing to fight to the death or going home to their families was a progressive notion on Dany’s part – similar to bombarding a city with barrels of broken slave collars instead of artillery. It would arguably endear combatants and civilians to her cause, even at the risk that some soldiers would see it as an opportunity to live to fight another day against her.
• The underlying premise of Dany’s approach in Mereen was appealing to the viewer (well, to me).
She showed enemies she could readily destroy them on the battlefield, while also exhibiting the capacity for mercy and a preference to first pursue a peaceful transition to a better way of life for the populations of the states she intended to rule.
• My initial “scoring” of S6e9 got bonus points, and my enjoyment of that episode was positively impacted, by the way Dany, Tyrion, Grey Worm and Missandei conducted themselves.
– It contrasted with the way other characters might have (justifiably) repaid the Masters’ treachery with no mercy.
– It also appeared to confirm that Daenerys Targaryen was not in fact like her father, belying the “Mad King’s Daughter” narrative (e.g., in Cersei’s excellent propaganda speech in S7e2, and the prejudices exhibited by the whinging Northerners when King Jon announced his intention to travel south to seek an alliance with Dany).
• – Now, however, after the events of S8 culminating in Dany going full-on Mad Queen and commuting mass murder of civilians for no reason after she’d already won the war against Cersei, my appreciation of S6e9 has been diminished considerably.
– All of Dany’s positive attributes in that episode were negated by subsequent events. I no longer feel any desire to rewatch that episode. The presentation of Dany as an a messianic figure and enlightened leader who’d “make the world a better place” – built up over seven seasons and exemplified by her actions in the Mereen segment of S6e9, was completely undermined by her transformation into mass murderer, aka The Worst Tyrant of All Time.
– It’s impossible for me to rewatch S6e9 without being influenced by S8e5 and e6.
– That’s what I mean by “Retrospective Downgrading.”
Does that make any sense?
Edit: “committing” not “commuting” mass murder.
Stupid Auto-Correct. 🤬
Tron79,
I still sleep with two stuffies (my old toy rabbit and Raggedy-Ann doll — I used to have a Care Bear but someone threw her away 😢) if that adds any parallel to your daughter’s team of Angry Bird stuffies to root for the Seahawks! 🙂
I had wanted to ask you about how you’re progressing through the HDM book! But I tried to reign myself in as it’s only been two weeks and I thought I’d give you time — but I’m always curious about your thoughts!
I was going to report back after finishing the first book, but so far I’m finding the show was a great adaptation. But I do think it would have helped the show watchers to have read the book first. They assumed they you know alot in the show, and I am appreciating the added explanations in the books. There have been alot of “Oh that makes alot more sense now!” I’ll go into more detail (perhaps offline) so I don’t hijack too much here unless we have alot of HDM fans, but I will definitely send you a report after completing book 1! Luckily for my daughter we have my son’s old room where she keeps a large number of her daemons (stuffed animals). Her stuffed caterpillar collection takes up his old bed with some very large ones on there. She also has a red caterpillar that was out rooting for the Chiefs. His caterpillar head would turn over when bad things happened. Actually that caterpillar was rooting for a more interesting game and got bored at some point.
Ten Bears,
Wow, I didn’t want to just respond with my thumbs with my phone since you had a really well thought out response and I can see this topic of thinking back to old episodes now that you know what happens in season 8 may have struck a nerve.
Retrospective Downgrading
So, the reality is that no matter how detached I would try to be, I just can’t pretend that I don’t know what’s going to happen. So it’s very possible my knowledge of what’s to come may now effect my Emotional enjoyment score of an earlier episode.
However, I think I would probably rate the season 8 episode lower with more problems, because it wasn’t consistent with earlier episodes. It would most likely inflate my “Problems” score for those season 8 episodes where she forgets all about trying to “break the wheel” and just said the hell with it, let’s just burn everything down. I do think Tyrion would have had a better argument to Dany in BOTB to say, “Don’t burn them all down, because you really need their ships!”. If he would have made that argument, then perhaps the season 8 scenes could have been more consistent. It would definitely affect my “Problems” score for season 8 episodes where she wasn’t consistent. Thinking back to BOTB, the Meeren scenes were often forgotten and perhaps were my favorite part of the episode.
Just a few comments about other things you said…
I agree with you about Sansa and the KOTV. It was a lower point for Sansa that she wouldn’t share her strategy with Jon and allowed him to sacrifice all of the wildlings while she knew she would just come in and save them later. This was one of the reasons she came out on top as QOTN though, so it’s communicating the overall message that devalues humanity, loyalty, and mercy and values deceit to gain power. Perhaps this is the way the world is, but it’s hard to watch and lowers my enjoyment factor!
I also rate those visuals of the three dragons high up there. That whole scene was a very emotionally satisfying scene for me. D&D didn’t often go for the scenes that made the fans feel good. They went for less action hero moments, but I quite enjoyed watching Dany and her Dragons put the masters in their place.
to be continued… I’m going to hit the button not to lose this… I will respond to other points you made in the next one…
Ahem, I mean *rein myself in, not reign 😉
Tron79,
Yes, whenever you wish or find the time, feel free to email me your thoughts about your HDM book journey! I’d love to read them!
I’ve seen others make some of the same comments, how the books kind of explain things a bit better. Whenever you want to share your thoughts, would you be able to note some of these things? It’s hard for me to separate what I know of the books when watching the TV series because I’ve lived with those books for ten years and I feel I came to the show with that built-in knowledge already in place.
Something in the show that I didn’t find so well explained was the role of the Magisterium and the Church (which isn’t mentioned in the show, is it?) in the society of Lyra’s world.
But yeah, I’ll try not to hijack too much of this thread either with HDM talk 🙂
Your daughter’s caterpillars sound like they are a story unto themselves! XD
Ten Bears,
Aut Neca Aut Necare I believe is the Latin phrase you were looking for.
I did think that GOT did a good job of showing the individual soldier with scenes like Arya’s campfire scene. I loved that scene btw even though so many hated Ed Sheeran’s cameo. I thought he fit right in, and it was great how they talked about his face burning off during Bronn’s brothel scene.
Jaime and others understood that soldiers were still men with families and homes. They would throw down their arms for the right reasons. This was part of Jaime’s strategy to end the castle siege quickly. Tyrion understood this as well. I’m not sure if Dany was ever really concerned about the soldiers. In some ways she was consistent and agreed with her brother that the soldiers were basically her army to help her get the IT. Yes, she had respect for the Dothraki and their customs, but I never got the idea she was overly concerned about her soldiers. She would be less concerned about the Master’s soldiers. Tyrion on the other hand was hoping for a better world. He was the idealist. Other than the one speech Dany had about breaking the wheel, I didn’t really feel her concern about making the world better. It was almost totally about the IT for her. Yes she saw the value in freedom, but I think alot of that value was that the free slaves would be free to fight for her, and she gambled that they would be happy to follow her. She couldn’t win wars with sellswords. They had to be loyal to her cause and not just loyal to money or fear of the master’s whip.
Continuing to re-read your comments..you talk about enjoying the episode because Dany was not like her father after all and then you find out in season 8, she flipped the wrong side of her coin. Yes, I can see that there would be a major disappointment factor there and it may be difficult to view the BOTB episode with as much excitement that you had the first time you saw it not knowing.
I think the reality is that you do know now, and there’s no going back, so you would have to rate it with that in mind. I think it would just add to my problems score for that episode as a way to drop the score some or perhaps your overall excitement for how much you loved the episode already dropped. It does make sense what you mean by Retrograde Downgrading, and I’ll consider whether to make it it’s own category or whether it will just naturally drop my enjoyment category or add to my problems score.
Tron79,
Reply to Tron79, cc: Adrianacandle, Mr. Derp, et al.
I hope that your efforts, along with others’ input, can result in an effective scoring system for all of us to use.
In particular, I appreciate your recognition that intangibles, such as a viewer’s emotional reactions and subjective perceptions, factor into the equation. Even your (tentative) scoring system takes into account the inherent complexities of rating an episode.
I’ve got to ask out of curiosity… if you were influenced by, and sought to avoid, the mechanical, simplistic approach in the scene in “Dead Poets Society” (link below) when Mr. Keating (Robin Williams) has a student read aloud an Introduction to their poetry book, “Understanding Poetry” by (fictional) J. Evans Pritchard, PhD. –
At first, Mr. Keating follows along with the student’s reading of the Introduction, in which J. Evans Pritchard asserts that a poem’s “greatness” can be determined by plotting two factors on the X and Y axes of a graph, where X = how effectively a poem’s objective is rendered, and Y = the importance of that objective. Then, simply calculating the total area (X) x (Y) yields a measure of the poem’s greatness.
After labeling that method as “excrement,” Robin Williams as Mr. Keating goes off a riff about how appreciating a poem isn’t like being on “American Bandstand.”
———
“Understanding Poetry” scene from Dead Poets Society
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjHORRHXtyI
—-
Adrianacandle,
they have their own room, so yes they have their own story.
Tron79,
I do take back one thing about Dany not showing concern about her soldiers.
She did jump into action to help the Dothraki in “The Long Night”, so yes there were times where she showed her loyalty to them. Most of the time though, she was focused on how she would get back the IT.
Ten Bears,
Well, I wasn’t thinking about that scene, but Robin has a point!!
It’s not really fair to reduce things down to a number, but it’s also really overwhelming trying to think of how to compare all of the episodes together. I do like Mr. Derp’s method of having the episodes battle with each other season by season. But I’m hoping my scoring system has a good balance of emotional impact with technical elements. I guess we shall see. I will test it with a couple episodes and see how it goes before finalizing.
Tron79,
Makes sense!
_____
Anyway, I’m enjoying this discussion and I think you all are covering the different attributes nicely, taking into account all the various variables, and I like Mr Derp’s point about mood — how feeling a certain way can affect how you feel about an episode that day.
I’d like to second Ten Bears’s comment, he was able to articulate it way better than me:
I think your scoring system is well on its way, Tron! 🙂
Tron79,
Misc. follow up (about Sansa’s KotV concealment as detracting from my enjoyment of the WF portion of S6e9)
• You noted that:
“It was a lower point for Sansa that she wouldn’t share her strategy with Jon and allowed him to sacrifice all of the wildlings while she knew she would just come in and save them later. This was one of the reasons she came out on top as QOTN though, so it’s communicating the overall message that devalues humanity, loyalty, and mercy and values deceit to gain power. Perhaps this is the way the world is, but it’s hard to watch and lowers my enjoyment factor.”
• At the risk of beating a dead horse, since the KotV concealment ignited a raging fan war that still continues unabated, I’ve questioned whether the showrunners ever intended to communicate a particular message.
– Sophie Turner was left twisting in the wind when asked in interviews about Sansa’s motives, because the showrunners didn’t explain them to Sophie.
– There were no in-universe explanations for Sansa’s behavior – just a brief apology to Jon in the next episode, and Jon simply saying “we have to trust each other.” Sansa didn’t offer any justification for not telling him, and Jon didn’t press for one.
– Various factions of the fandom have extrapolated all sorts of explanations on just about every point of the anti-Sansa vs. pro-Sansa spectrum. I couldn’t even begin to recite them all.
• My theory is that the showrunners were simply trying to readjust their timeline and characters’ locations with those in the books, after detouring Sansa north prematurely to shoehorn her into the Jeyne Poole/Theon storyline.
I’m speculating that in the books, Sansa will learn of the impending battle for WF, and immediately travel from the Vale, arriving in time with the KotV to help Jon. She won’t have to conceal anything since she will not have reunited with Jon before then.
That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it until GRRM proves me wrong. 🤔
Ten Bears,
It has to be totally different in the books..
That’s all Jeyne Poole (Sansa’s friend) who pretends to be Arya.
Ramsay is thinking he’s marrying Arya so he can get a better claim to the North, when in fact it’s Jeyne. There’s a pretty large section of the books talking about the fake Arya.
Sansa is still up in the Vale as you said. She’s having her own identity crisis at the moment pretending to be Alayne Stone, Little Finger’s bastard daughter.
I think she may be believing she’s really Alayne. In some ways it’s a bit of a parallel to Arya’s no one story line where Arya is going through the mother of all identity crisises. I don’t think Sansa will be running down to help Jon any time soon. Jon’s not even on her radar and she never really was involved with Jon much. Jon does have a plan to rush down to Winterfell to get Ramsay, because Jon thinks he’s marrying Arya!
He received what they call the “pink letter”. It’s similar to the one he gets in the show, but this one is all about Arya (but it’s not really Arya, it’s Jeyne).
I’m not worried as much about these spoilers for you, since my guess is you will read the Boiled Chicken version anyway! But I really doubt Sansa is going to come to Winterfell with the KOTV in the books. I just hope we have a book this year to find out what happens!
I hope either Nutter or Sapochnik wins (though I’m biased and really want only Sapochnik to win always…LOL)!
As for “Watchmen”, I sincerely hope it doesn’t win anything, or is ever nominated for anything else. It was one of the most disappointing shows in quite a while. Also one of the worst new shows I have had the displeasure of painfully trying to see. Overhyped, deathly boring, an insult to the source material and just all around badly written, directed, acted and produced. Though I should have known given the involvement of Dame Lindelof…
Hopefully it was a one season shot, and we never, ever have to see anymore of it ever again!
Off topic:
House of the Dragon likely to premiere in 2022:
https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/hbo-watchmen-season-2-game-of-thrones-prequels-hbo-max-1203468569/
Great choices, and even when the Last of the Stark suffered from the writing, the directing was amazing. I think this was a great choice for Nutter.
As for watchmen, I never really was into the premise of what that show was about. Now I see that Damon Lindelof is the creator and Regina King is the lead. Maybe I will watch it. I loved her in Leftovers.
Tron79,
Well, I’m trying to come up with some reason why show! Sansa didn’t tell Jon, and then triumphantly rode in with LF & KotV just in time to turn the tide of the battle – after scores of Stark Army soldiers had already been killed, and Jon barely escaped with his life.
Jon may have been willing to let her off the hook. I’m not so sure the families of the dead wildlings, Mormonts and others who fought and died for her would be so sanguine about her nondisclosure.
Anyway, that was never addressed in the show. I suppose we can assume the Northerners let it slide because they crowned her Queen at the end. I didn’t see many adult Wildlings left when Jon led the Free Folk back to their territory at the very end of the last episode – so maybe there weren’t that many survivors around who could even gripe about the Battle of the Bastards casualties.
Comparing those two doesn’t make sense.
In the books we have Tyrion saved by Jon Connington while Tyrion was almost drowning. Why is this still possible that this could happen? Tyrion is not heavy, he wasn’t wearing armor at the time. We can even save people who are drowning in a car, so getting Tyrion up to the surface is not really that big of a deal. And still there was a big consequence here.
Jaime in the show, this is not really something that could happen. Jaime is much heavier than Tyrion. And he was wearing armor. Yes if he had undo his armor and Bronn saved him there I would say that this was very plausible. But he did not. Jaime should have sunked to the bottom of the lake, like somebody who has a concrete block on his ankle. Real armor is heavy, between 15-25 kilo depends how your height is. That is if the plates are steel. But Jaime has also gold woven into it. Gold is 2,5 times heavier than steel. So I think the armor would be around 30+ Kilo’s.
And who saves him? Bronn, a skinny guy. Yes he is fast with a knife and sword and that’s how he can kill. But he is not really buff like the mountain. Yes the mountain would probably get Jaime out of the water, but Bronn would never be possible to save Jaime if Jaime was wearing his armor.
So there’s a big difference in what the book has written with saving somebody who is drowning and what the show has depicted. One is very possible, the other is just plain impossible to be saved by Bronn.
So… Winds of Winter in 2036?
Sorry for the sarcasm. I reached my DSP* long ago. I’m not that excited about Targaryen history either, though it seems George is.
Dragons, dragons and more dragons must appeal to the beancounters at HBO….
* DSP = Dragon Saturation Point.
The LightKing,
You really think that most people know who write the episodes of GoT? Most viewers don’t even know who writes an episode or directs it. Most people just watch. And many of those found blackwater more enjoyable and plausible than what season 7 and 8 brought. It has nothing to do with the name GRRM, but if in fact people praise Blackwater because of writing and not season 7 and 8 while they don’t know who wrote which episodes (in most people minds D&D write everything), then you already have your answer about those episodes.
And there is a thing (Which I some how can’t get the name of) when you watch a movie and believe things that can’t happen. Like we really believe that the dragons are real when they don’t exist, but at the same time if a character would be dropped 100 meter to the ground and survive we feel that this can never happen.
Same here, and I keep that rating system in mind.
Tron79,
Ten Bears,
I wasn’t. Till I read a great theory on the books what all is about: Dragons. And more over, hatching of dragons tied in with Targaryen genes. And how many interesting things happened in the History of the Targaryens. And the part we get to see, is very interesting.
Tron79,
”…But I’m hoping my scoring system has a good balance of emotional impact with technical elements.”
Oh, it certainly does!
I only wish I had more musical aptitude so I could include that in my appraisal of an episode. Other commenters can identify character- or House-based themes, and notice how Ramin D. uses variations on them or merges some together.
All of that goes over my head (or through it).
Ten Bears,
I wasn’t. Till I read a great theory on the books what all is about: Dragons. And more over, hatching of dragons tied in with Targaryen genes. And how many interesting things happened in the History of the Targaryens. And the part we get to see, is very interesting.
kevin1989,
Yeah, it’s going to be a while, but hopefully we’ll receive casting news to tide us over and maybe, even, The Winds of Winter, if the gods are kind.
Ten Bears,
I guess I haven’t reached my DSP yet. I love the Targaryens and the dragon lore. Danerys was my second favorite character, after Arya.
kevin1989,
You’re right. And the thing is, “magic” is just the science of a fictional world. Like the science of human physiology, “magic” has to have established rules and limitations. (Or else…any dilemma can be “solved” by omnipotent beings with unlimited magical powers, eliminating any drama.)
For the same reasons that mighty warriors like Khal Drogo and Sandor Clegane can be felled by infected cuts or bites, a full grown man in armor who falls into deep water will sink to the bottom and drown. I doubt a companion could drag him to the surface, let alone to a riverbank a mile away.
By contrast, saving an unarmored child, or a diminutive adult like Tyrion, by pulling them to the surface wouldn’t be far-fetched at all.
It’s all a matter of physics and biology.
Young Dragon,
Fair enough. Speaking only for myself, I suffered from dragon overload + direwolf deprivation.
Don’t get me wrong. The baby dragons hatching at the end of S1 was awesome. I liked watching them grow and learn to first spit puffs of smoke, and then later, streams of fire in the House of the Undying. It was cool when Dany pulled a Dracarys on the Unsullied seller. And of course I loved the visual of the three dragons roasting the Masters’ ship in S6e9.
It’s just that after that, the novelty wore off…
Tron79,
”Aut Neca Aut Necare I believe is the Latin phrase you were looking for.”
Thanks for that! So that’s Latin for: “Kill or be killed.”
(I was also thinking of a similar phrase, “Hit or Be Hit” – then I remembered that was the motto of the Miami Hurricanes football team back in its glory days.)
Tron79,
”I did think that GOT did a good job of showing the individual soldier with scenes like Arya’s campfire scene. I loved that scene btw even though so many hated Ed Sheeran’s cameo.”
“The Broken Man” speech is one of the few books’ passages I’ve read. I was somewhat disappointed that the episode of the same name (S6e7) didn’t adapt that speech. Frankly, I thought Brother Ray’s version wasn’t nearly as compelling.
I felt that the friendly Lannister soldiers scene in S7e1 better captured the spirit of the books’ Broken Man speech, e.g., homesick young men talking about their initial excitement to see the world but now just wanting to rejoin their families; and of course the observation (verbatim from the books?) that boys are forced to “fight in someone else’s war.”
Tron79,
P.S. Ed Sheeran’s cameo didn’t bother me at all. Besides, there was no reason to hate it: His appearance was a gift to the Many-Faced Goddess.
(I think it was supposed to be a surprise to MW, but Sophie let it slip.)
Adrianacandle,
Yup. I agree: Tron’s scoring system is well on its way.
I wonder if someone with technical expertise (i.e., not me) could set up a program to tabulate online ballots and aggregate the results…
Hummm. I did write a website builder so I could probably do it. Hummmm. Have to get to sleep for awhile to get up at 5:15 So I will back at responses to some of these tomorrow. It may be more awesome for someone with more talent than me to write a GOT March madnesss site with episodes battling each other like Mr Derp suggested. I can see the animations now. It would be a bit like those old Star Wars scenes with the chess pieces battling. Which episodes would make the final four. The betting begins. It might be fine before 2022 and the targ show comes out! For this year I might do the scoring site. Sorry no cool animations of a Viper eating chicken. Well that would never happen though. The chicken would always win.
Tron79,
Re: “Retrospective Downgrading”:
”… Yes, I can see that there would be a major disappointment factor there and it may be difficult to view the BOTB episode with as much excitement that you had the first time you saw it not knowing.
I think the reality is that you do know now, and there’s no going back, so you would have to rate it with that in mind. I think it would just add to my problems score for that episode as a way to drop the score some or perhaps your overall excitement for how much you loved the episode already dropped. It does make sense what you mean by Retrograde Downgrading, and I’ll consider whether to make it it’s own category or whether it will just naturally drop my enjoyment category or add to my problems score.”
There’s a song lyric going through my brain:
“Wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then.”
(I can’t remember the song and singer right now. I’m sure they’ll come to me after I press “Post Comment” and the “edit comment” window has passed…)
I wonder if the episode with Jaime’s famous bathtub scene will be subject to Retrospective Downgrading because of his odd statement in S8 (paraphrasing) that he never really cared about the people of KL.
kevin1989,
I could pick apart tons of problems with Blackwayer
kevin1989,
George writes all kinds of unbelievable things in his book. Characters survive things they shouldn’t be able to.
Tron79,
Like Davos surviving an explosion two feet in front of his face. Wait George wrote that so it’s ok.
Tron79,
Also it would be possible for him to save Jaimie.
There are definitely things in the earlier seasons that frankly are beyond belief but for some reason they didn’t bother me as much as S7 or S8. I believe I’m fair and balanced and I do not believe it’s because GRRM wrote them either.
The things which stick in my mind was the Sand Snakes in S5, Beyond the Wall & Jamie/Bronn miracle underwater swim in armour then in S8 the way Euron takes out Dany’s Dragon/Fleet plus elements of the long night where every major character endlessly survives scenarios where they should be long dead, plus of course the respawning Dothraki. To add I felt S8 was better than S7.
I enjoyed Watchmen but similarly to WestWorld it comes across as a high budget series that tries to be too clever at times and doesn’t quite have that long term pull of a fundamentally good story at it’s heart.
So, I just registered a name for the future website…
73chickens.com
I thought first of chickenscore.com, but someone actually had it with nothing really on it. I was thinking tronscore.com, but it’s a bit pretentious. I liked the 73chickens.com and it was available so I hit the button! Now all i have to do is write it.
I will take this opportunity to learn some new platforms. My knowledge is mostly old school with PHP and mySQL, but the new stuff should be easier and nicer looking…
i want to use some cloud database and some front end web development platform that is cool… anyway.. I have to actually do the scoring myself first with a regular old Excel spreadsheet and see how it goes and tweak it. I think your retrograde downgrading works with a higher problems score don’t you? For me, I wouldn’t penalize the bath scene episode. That’s Jaime at his best. I penalize the season 8 episode, because they seemed to have forgetten about the bath scene Jaime. I count that towards the problem score for the season 8 episode, because the Jaime I know obviously cared about the KL people. That line made no sense unless he had to choose between the KL people or Cersei. Cersei would always come first. For Jaime, it was always a dilemma between choices. How do you resolve multiple vows. Which vow gets priority. Do I keep my vow to my king or do I kill my father (for example).
I will have to do my own round of scoring while studying up on the latest web development platforms. In the meantime I guess I’ll have to put some ‘vapor ware’ cover page on 73chickens.com tomorrow. Now it’s a race between my vapor ware and GRRM to see who gets done first!
Jon Snowed,
There is a logical explanation for all of these things and I do not understand why some people can’t accept that and do not want to see it.
kevin1989,
Compare the mood of the fandom at the time of season 2 and after season 5. When season 2 came out, Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss weren’t the worst writers of all time and the internet didn’t throw shit on them. Its fact that some People especially on You Tube have the agenda to offend Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and the show after season 4 and talk anything bad and that in all aspects and try to influence as many people as possible to change the view of the people. There are no videos about the Problems in the battle of Blackwater even though there are some but there are tons of videos about errors in season 7 and 8. That’s the difference. That’s Propaganda, nothing else.
That’s why there are already people who have the mindset that the show is badly written after season 4 even though they have never seen the show before and that is precisely because of such morons on YouTube. That’s why there are people who ask if it’s worth watching Game of Thrones because they heard that after season 4 it’s bad, the same goes for the end.
Ps. The book fans know who wrote which episode.
kevin1989,
And don’t tell me that’s normal that a lot of people in the fandom say that S4E10 was the last good episode of Game of Thrones. WTF??? There are even people who hate Hardhome because they don’t like Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. Honestly, Hardhome is a masterpiece of television, how can someone say that this episode is bad. Like WTF?
Problems in the Battle of Blackwater:
1. How did Davos survive this big explosion
even though he was standing right next
to it? How?
2. How didnt Stannis, Davos and
Melisandre know about Tywin and the
Tyrelles and their big army marching to
Kings Landing? But Ramsey should have
known about the knights of the Vale
mimimi.
3. Bron saved The Hound. Podrick saved
Tyrion. Tyrion should have died. It
makes no sense that the Knight didn’t
cut off his head instead, he gave Tyrion a
scar and where did Podrick come from?
Plot armour at its finest.
I know that isn’t a problem but it was
a problem in The Long Night
4. Of course Tywin saved the day in the
last minute. Isn’t a problem but a
problem in Battle of the Bastards, a
problem in The Long Night etc. and I
can’t believe it that 20.000 men can’t
break trough a small gate.
5. How could Stannis escape?
And honestly, I don’t think that The Long Night has more problems than Blackwater.
People don’t judge S1-4 like S5-8 because 1-4 are the books and GRRM and 5-8 are shitty Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. This fandom is hypocritical and the worst of all.
The only thing that I don’t like about Season 8 is that Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss were too gracious. They should have made it even more controversial so this hypocritical fandom and all the dreamers can’t think of anything else. They should have killed Tyrion, Arya, Drogon, Ghost, the fucking entire cast so the people can cry even more than they already do. Then all the snops could have debated in their stupid youtube videos how bad everything was. That’s my only complaint.
The LightKing,
What’s a snop?
Westeros.org is probably the most toxic place you can go when it comes to Game of Thrones. The places is littered with Trolls and heavily biased book enthusiasts. That said I recall Hardholme getting a positive reception, even Winds of Winter did and by that stage they were literally foaming at the mouth to criticise D&D for over taking GRRM.
The LightKing,
This pretty much sums up how I feel.
Fireandblood87,
That really anyos me. When people talk about the “problems” in the later seasons then they should judge 1-4 the same way. When I defend season 8 on youtube and bring arguments why I thought it was good, I get insulted. People are so hateful. They don’t accept anything positive.
If we talk about the best written battle, I would say that Wachters on the Wall was the best one even though it isn’t my favorite. The most epic is Battle of the Bastards. The most scariest, Hardhome and the most thrilling The Long Night in my opinion. I was shaking during episode 3. 😱
I apologize if my sentences or grammar aren’t so good. I’am from Germany.
I couldn’t agree more.
Young Dragon,
True and I think it’s wise of HBO to wait. 2019/2020/2021 is probably the 3 years that we have His Dark Materials, and once that ends we will see the house of the dragon.
And I hope we will get winds of winter, but GRRM is toying too much with us. I rather he just have us some news like “I’m X% done” or “I’m stick again” or something, I rather hear something especially after he made some sort of statement that he will finish it before July but I start to doubt that.
But still even if he finish it tomorrow I expect it won’t come until October. Every single ASOIAF book was published in the last 3 months of the year if I remember correctly.
Ten Bears,
This.
Give us examples, else it’s just making a statement without backing up that statement.
And for me what’s important is, if I believe it when I watch it. (Still can’t get the name of that word how that’s called), like why I buy that dragons live while they clearly never existed. Or that somebody can change their face etc, not possible but I believe them in the show.
That’s true, a blast like that should kill a person (maybe the lord of light was kind to Davos), but still I bought it that he could have survived that.
But still even in real life people survive bomb blasts while they shouldn’t (people in army for instance), sometimes it’s just luck by having your body just in the right position. And even when Davos should be death there was a small chance he could have survived something like that. (Still the book version made more sense to me).
And about strange stories about survival. My grandfather worked as a builder (and streetmaker a while but that’s something else), he felled one time 6 floors down (1 floor is I think 3 meters), he survived with only a broken wrist, while others die when they fall 2 floors. (Or even stranger that story a while back that skydiver which parachute didn’t open and survived 2,4 km fall. Search “skydiver survives fall without parachute”, it was even filmed.
Still when even those things can happen which a very low chance, it can happen. But a skinny guy like Bronn pulling Jaime to the surface is not luck, it’s not possible.
So better wait till the show is done with another season or 2?
About Westworld, I personally love that show and can’t wait till season 3. I loved the plottwist of season 2 at the end.
The LightKing,
1. They didn’t talk bad about D&D in season 2? Really? Talisa choice remember how book-purist reacted to that?
2. Many people who saw problems with season 7 and 8 still love D&D writing and want to see their new project, doesn’t mean that they can’t have a problem with their choices.
3. Personal against them is never ok, they are just morons. But professionally criticism should never be labeled as personal (what I see you doing often), it should be encourage in all fields of expertise, and writers are not excused of that.
3a. Change of personal and professional: D&D are bad writers. Is professional, it’s about their profession. There’s nothing wrong if somebody has that opinion, but as my old teacher state: An opinion needs to have valid arguments, else the opinion can’t be taken serious. Personal is name calling what some do like “Dumb and Dumber” that should never be excused and always frowned upon. That’s not how you talk to another human being.
4. Yes book fans know a lot of who wrote which episodes. But it’s not only book fans who are very opinionated of season 8. In my surroundings I’m the only one who read the books and I still love season 8 even with it’s faults, and would still watch the show over and over again. My sister found the season perfect except the last half of the last episode which she found anti-climatic, she bingewatched the season in 1,5 day so she liked it as a whole. My partner was disappointed that it was not ground breaking like LotR which he had hope it would be, and found season 8 the least but still great as a whole, but would not watch over. My best friend dislike it very much and found it rushed. He don’t care who write an episode. He enjoy or dislike an episode and that’s it.
5. I find it funny that instead of talking about why season 7 and 8 is great to show this is the best show ever made, you start about the faults in earlier seasons.
The LightKing,
Agree Hardhome is amazing. Same as winds of winter.
1. See above.
2. Why should Stannis know about the army of Tywin when the recent information was that Tywin was battling Robb Stark?
And where is the complained that Ramsay should have known about the Vale? Was the whole problem not that Sansa kept that a secret to Jon, and Jon should have known? (Only thing I could personally blame Ramsay for was not knowing where LF stand. LF gave him Sansa, so he should have known that LF was at his side, or at Sansa’s side. Why didn’t Ramsay try to know where LF stand? I mean it’s simple, or LF is an ally, or he used the Bolton’s. Ally he will fight for the Bolton’s. And if he used the Bolton’s he should have know that LF was an enemy of his. And LF control the army of the Vale, so why didn’t he update himself where LF stand in the upcoming battle. That’s a huge difference with Ramsay and Stannis. Stannis knew a update, but not the latest, how could he. Ramsay didn’t even check his updates.)
3. What’s so unbelievable about Bronn saving Sandor? They were both in place A, and personA saved personB because they were in the same place. And you can’t compare a human battle to a battle against unstoppable death, the thing people complained about in the long night. At one you could use your skills to win, the other not. That’s why saving Sandor was not unbelievable, but when 1 person (for instance Jaime or Brienne) survive an attack of 50+ wights per person and none died it’s plot armor to it’s finest.
Podrick see above. PlaceA, Person A saved personB. (Well it would have make more sense if he had lost his nose etc)
Another difference is what the battle tried to succeed, one of a battle who will get the iron Throne, to rule. The focus was not the battle but Cersei’s innerbattle of the battle. The long night was about “Who will survive against the dead”, the stakes were different.
4. Explain the 20.000 men through a gate, are you talking about BotB or TLN? And there’s a big difference between the army of the vale and Tywin. Sansa had the information, so that means Jon could have had the information. Cersei and Tyrion did not, nobody knew except Tywin that he was coming. That’s the difference, the battle of blackwater was Cersei/tyrion/Sansa/Davos/Stannis POV not Tywin. But BotB had Sansa as a POV.
5. Watch blackwater and you see how he escaped.
Yes it’s all about GRRM and the books. That’s why a big portion of the people who disliked season 8 were show-only watchers, it’s because of the books.
So instead of listening to the 1% loud haters, focus on the ones on this site. Many had their problems with season 7 and 8, and none are unreasonable with D&D, they still have respect for them, your view of the fandom is far from reality I must say.
The LightKing,
Hello neighbor.
Ooh. Both well deserved! I’ll lean towards rooting for Miguel, but would be happy if either one took it home! 😊
kevin1989,
1. I think that Stannis should have known about Tywin. The Lannisters have 60k soldiers. If Tywin takes 10k to save Kingslanding + the Tyrelles it is a pretty big number. I can’t believe that Stannis has no spies on the mainland or at least has considered the possibility that Tywin could come with the Tyrelles.
2. I didn’t mean, that Bronn saving Sandor is unbelievable. It’s plot armour. That was my point same with Tyrion.
3. There were a lot of complaints that Ramsey should have known about LF and the Knights of the Vale. How could he not known that a few thousand soldiers were riding towards Winterfell. He should have spies too. That was the complaint.
4. Stannis attacked Kingslanding with 20.000 men. I can’t believe that so many men can’t break through such a small Gate. It took so long, but that’s more nitpicking I admit that.
5. I watched it. The last time we saw him, he was at the battlements, when Tywin arrived. How could he escape? There were everywhere Lannister soldiers.
I don’t think that my opinion about the fandom is far from reality. I have discussed with a many people and my view is based on these discussions. After all, I can justify it.
kevin1989,
My problem is that people act like that there weren’t “problems” in the earlier seasons. If people talk about errors then they should mention them all and treat 1-4 exactly the same as 5-8. It’s a fact that the fandom has changed. People just started with nitpicking and searching for mistakes and take every secen apart so they can find something they can complain about to throw shit on Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. The outrage about S8 prove that again. Some people even hated the visuals and the music simply because they are so hateful.
The LightKing,
1. True 60k is a big number, a big number that was about to attack Robb Stark. So Stannis shouldn’t have known he was about to be rear-ended because as far as everyone knew that include Tyrion and Cersei (remember what they were talking about before the battle maybe 1 or 2 days before), Tywin was about to hit Robb Stark and defeat Robb Stark.
And about the second part you are just stretching. I wonder if you really watched the show with the spy statement. Did you watch who Stannis was, and who his “allies”/”Close people” were? He doesn’t have spies, he doesn’t have anything remotely that could help him win the war, he doesn’t have a Varys of his own. That’s why he needed Mellisandre, because she was the only that could help him in any way to win the battle. She was maybe the spy you are referring to, but her “birds” is the lord of light, which is not that eager to show her anything special. Mel was concerned about Blackwater, not about where Robb/Tywin etc were.
2. Yes but I already made clear how it is about Tyrion. One has no chance of happening, the other maybe less than 1% but still a small chance it could happen. And that’s what’s tv is about, it’s only interesting if we see those small chances that a certain event can happen, even when many of them happen in the course of the series, as long as there is even a 0,0000001% chance. Look at HP, isn’t it strange that the big event always happen at the end of the year? Small chance, but not that out of the box that it could happen. Or for instance Grey’s anatomy. I don’t think that any hospital has ever endured in the first world what they endured there. But still every event has a chance of happening to a certain hospital, even if very small. Why doesn’t it matter that it show them all? Because it are interesting events. That’s the different here, season 1 till 4 and by a stretch 5 and 6, shows us events that maybe has little chance of actually happening, but they still could happen. Season 7 and 8 showed us things that could never be happening, even within the rules of Planetos.
3. Agree if that was a complained that it is too far stretch. But that doesn’t mean that it’s out of Ramsay’s character to know exactly where his “Ally” LF stand. He considered many houses if they are allies or enemies, but the one who gave him his bride he forgot, that’s not Ramsay, ramsay is very tactical and doesn’t fill the blanks in. I mean you even see this in real life, if there is a war, countries want to know who is their ally, who is their enemy and who is neutral especially countries which they had contact with in the past.
4. Oh you meant blackwater, I though you meant the gate in BoB. Well a gate like that should be easy to get through with the right tools, you think that 20.000 really matter? 20.000 or 50 doesn’t change a bit. Only a X amount of people can work on the gate, after that the place to stand to it stops. (Black Friday Sale clips should show you that, 1000 of people are waiting at the door, but only 20 or so are at the door. I would say that 5 minutes that door would be gone, as the episodes clearly showed us.
5. It clearly you need to watch again. Stannis was at the battlements right by the sea side, he was taken away by his men. It’s not out of option that he could flee towards his boat.
Well I don’t want to judge, but if I see this site and comments I see people who didn’t think season 8 was perfect and brilliant react objectively and calm with arguments and always respectful. But some that though season 8 was amazing including you, and I don’t mean this as an insult, react many times irrational, namecalling, passive aggressive and other things you state the people who hate season 8 did. (Not stating you did all those things but you can’t deny it that sometimes you react very emotional or talking with others who loved season 8 like the ones who didn’t don’t exist).
The LightKing,
Every show out there, and every season of every shows has problems, that’s why still new shows are made. But those things you state isn’t happening on this site, nobody who didn’t like season 8 show any sign of overreaction or nitpicking. They state a problem and that’s it. And not a single person on this site even those who disliked season 8 state that it deserve a low score. I don’t think even one person here think it deserve below a 6,0 (many even higher), what many argue with is that they think it doesn’t deserve a 10 as some make it out to be.
kevin1989,
I have seen review bombs. I have seen death threats. Fake articles. The way people speak about the showrunners is downright vile at times. I disagree this final season made me ashamed at times to be part of this fandom.
kevin1989,
Just watch Blackwater. People are surviving impossible things the entire battle. But of course D&D bad George is a god.