Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 5 Open Chat, with Night’s Cast Livestream!

Photo courtesy of Helen Sloan/HBO.

Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 5

Writers: David Benioff and D.B. Weiss
Director: Miguel Sapochnik
Runtime: 1 hr 18 minutes
Content Warnings: TV-MA: Adult Content, Adult Language, Graphic Violence
Video Preview: Season 8 Episode 5 Trailer

Join us now for live discussion, filled with hopes and predictions, in advance of tonight’s episode, with the Night’s Cast, and this week’s guests Quinn of Ideas of Ice & Fire:

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620 Comments

  1. #ForTheThrone

    Only 2 episodes left. Can’t believe the finale is next week. I don’t know what to expect from this episode, but at the very least, I expect big spectacles and for them to go all out. It’s Sapochnik’s swan swong and I’m guessing it is likely the last battle we will ever see on GoT. I’m hoping for even more then what “The Long Night” gave us.

  2. Cry ‘Havoc,’ and let slip the dogs of war

    Or better know in High Valyrian as:

    DRACARYS

  3. I’m not sure if it’s a spoiler as it’s on some people’s tv synopsis but the title is

    The Last War
  4. Although the last 4 season’s are not as good as the first four, they are still better than the rest of television. The last few weeks has been so disappointing reading all the negative comments, and reviews. Now we have only 2 episodes left the enjoy, to anticipate, and to get excited about. I hope everyone put aside their negativity and just enjoy.

  5. Just suck it up 🙂
    This thread is going to be astronomical in size after the show airs! I will check in later… Ah, and no whinging afterwards if things don’t go the way you would have liked them to! This is GoT and anything can happen 😛

  6. Not going to speculate about the approaching episode, have a feeling whatever is produced will feel rushed.

    I immensely enjoyed episode four, however like many feel the episode should have been done as two episodes. The writers brushed over very important character dialogue and a wasted a very valuable opportunity to give insight into the characters before the end of the series. This is the kind stuff that used to be integral to series as recent as season six.

    The shorter episodes in all series have been less than fifty minutes, therefore, twenty minutes of additional material would have sufficed to create two episodes. With minimal CGI how difficult /costly would this have been to do, guessing HBO would have had no issue with an additional episode. The only problem would be where to split the episode into two parts.
    I have suggested additional scenes that would pad out the episodes and hope you agree with my choices.

    Scene between Daenerys and Missandei – For someone who is supposedly Daenerys’s closet adviser, she has been nothing but decorative this season bar giving some sass Sansa way. Especially with the ending of the episode, a heart to heart between the two should have been shown. Perhaps with Daenerys beginning to question if the throne is worthwhile.

    Sansa and Brienne discuss Jamie – Brienne worries that if Jamie goes to Kings Landing then Daenerys will have Jamie killed for murdering her father or that Cersei will have him killed for betraying her. Sansa worries that Jamie’s knowledge of Daenerys army could assist Cersei and believes that his loyalty is still with Cersei. Sansa realising that Brienne feelings towards Jamie go beyond mutual admiration between knights, agrees for Jamie to stay at Winterfell.

    War meeting at Winterfell – Sansa speaks to officers who inform her that the northern army are still weary and wounds have yet to heal and that some may not even make it Kings Landing. Sansa references this (as she did the possibility in the episode), Lord Royce echoes her view and advises Daenerys that she is vulnerable and to await additional troops including the Iron Born (foreshadowing later events). Lord Royce’s intervention also shows his support for Sansa which Varys alluded to when talking to Tyrion.

    Sansa and Arya react to Jon’s true parentage – they wonder how this affects their relationship with Jon, whether his loyalty is conflicted, which Arya flatly refuses to believe. Then Sansa compares Daenerys to Cersei, saying their only goal is the iron Throne and despite Jon’s fealty to Daenerys, his parentage is threat to her ambition of being ruler of the seven kingdoms. Regardless of her feelings for Jon, the Iron throne would come first and that Jon’s life is at risk.
    With the additional scenes perhaps this would be a good place to split the episode as the war meeting came in about thirty five minutes into the original episode.

    Lord Glover comes before Sansa – Sansa questions Lord Glovers betrayal, twice he has broken his oath. Not sure if he is given leniency/death but end result is majority of Glover troops replenish Winterfell, other northern houses and Daenerys army marching south. Used as a mechanism to show a greater period of time had passed since the battle – time period was not clear and seemed to have fought one day, got drunk the next, left for battle the day after.

    Jon says a proper goodbye to Ghost – he’s been with him from the start (even beside him when was dead), so not to give him a proper goodbye was a failure of the writers. How much would it have cost to CGI a minute scene with him!

    Jon, Sansa and Arya say goodbye – no one says it but this could be the last time they meet. Regardless this is a watershed in all their lives and although they found each other again, circumstances meant is was only temporary and that the past events had shaped their characters differently and set them on alternative paths.

    Attack at Dragonstone – Basically they killed Rhegal to even up the final battle.
    Not expecting any naval threat seemed lazy writing considering the two prior attacks by Euron’s fleet and the vulnerability of the dragons – being injured during the Long Night, Viserions death in Season seven and Dragon almost been killed in Season seven episode four. They didn’t even necessarily have to kill Rhegal, he could have been so injured he was unable to fly thus Daenerys was left to rely on just Dragon. Remember Season five after Dragon was injured in the fighting pits of Meereen and disappeared for a while to heal.

    If they were going to kill Rhegal then at least Euron’s fleet should have suffered collateral damage. I agree with other comments that Euron has been almost untouchable. With his luck he shouldn’t be fighting but just sitting back and doing the Westeros lottery!

    Missandei and Cersei – I agree with James Hibberd (EW) on this, there should have been a scene between Missandei and Cersei. Cersei is told some home truths, such as Cersei is a tyrant (make some comparison to Masters of Slavers Bay), Daenerys cares for her people, those who fight for Cersei do so because of fear or are paid mercenaries.
    Then Cersei telling Missandei some home truths in return, that kind leaders didn’t last long in power, Daenerys is no different than Cersei, mentioning the killing of the Masters of Meereen and Randall Tarly – tie in somehow with the rise of authoritarian leaders in the real world.
    This conversation would contrast with Arya and Sansa discussion regarding the similarities between Cersei and Daenerys and the discussion that Tyrion had with Cersei at the end the episode about her not caring about her people.
    When Missandei fate is sealed when refuses to give Cersei her loyalty.

    Daenerys asks for Cersei Surrender – some crew members and unsullied are executed prior to the discussions between Tyrion and Qyburn, it was strange that just Missandei was captured and the executions would have set the tone of the meeting.

  7. I’m really looking forward to this battle. I loved The Long Night (I’m in the minority, I know) for its sheer brutal will to survive against an overwhelming evil. But tonight’s battle isn’t just about living to see the dawn, it’s a lot more complex. It’s character history and strategy and anger and revenge and hope and love.

    The Long Night answered the question, “Will there be a future for mankind?” and tonight’s battle will answer, “What will the future look like”?

    It’s going to be a lot of fun :).

  8. I kind of feel like this battle doesn’t even matter in the grand scheme of things, for the realm anyway. If Cersei wins, even though we’ll never see it because the show ends, war would go on. The North, the Vale, the Riverlands, Dorne, and probably the Reach will never bow to her. The Iron Islands still has a civil war going on. She can only plunder Highgarden once and has no ongoing source of funding. It would be nice for everyone to avoid even more war and have Daenerys win right here and now, but even if she doesn’t, Cersei is finished. It’s just a matter of when.

  9. Is seeing Cersei be burned alive (by wildfire please, please, please) too much to ask for? Can I have this one thing? Please?

  10. I am looking forward to this episode. I was part of the group of folks who was disappointed with episode 4 turned out, and several days later plus 1 rewatch, my opinion hasn’t changed. However I am going to choose to believe in D & D in that they will stick the landing. They are not immune to the pacing problems that have plagued the show in recent seasons and I have to believe that while not much can be done for that at this point, they will at least serve the plot of the ending in a cohesive and logical manner. No hysterical heel turn for Dany, no nonsensical plot jumps and logic abandonment like last week’s killing of Rhaegal. Stick the landing. Please. I hope. I choose to believe.

  11. Looking forward to this one a lot. I think it will not be battle the whole time. I expect a lot of switching between battle and personal stuff.

    I hope this episode will feature multiple days. Not just one day.

    Dyanna,

    I like it. More got like then my prediction “queen of Ashes” / “city of ash”

    Jay Sabludowsky,

    True its better then what other shows give us. But I have to disagree with the first four better then the last 4. For me the season in the top half are. Season 1, 4, 6 and 8. 2 from the frist 2 and 2 from the last 2.

  12. Kevin1989,

    How about ‘The Lion and the Dragon’ for a title? ‘Queen vs. Queen’

    I liked most of the seasons. Season 7 was a bit iffy for me and I’m still trying to evaluate season 8. There has certainly been good points but there have been bits that didn’t make sense.

  13. Despite all the hate this season has been getting, I believe this episode will be it’s masterpiece… But Unfortunately it’s too late, if it’s that good, most people have already decided to hate it before even watching it. Toxic fandom makes me sad…

  14. ThisGirlHasNoName: The Long Night answered the question, “Will there be a future for mankind?” and tonight’s battle will answer, “What will the future look like”?

    Nicely put. Brevity is best. But will there be a resolution to that second question by the end of this episode?

  15. Kevin1989:

    But I have to disagree with the first four better then the last 4. For me the season in the top half are. Season 1, 4, 6 and 8. 2 from the frist 2 and 2 from the last 2.

    I also do not subscribe to the opinion that the first four seasons are clearly better. I’ll have to see how this season turns out to form a definitive opinion, but so far Season 8 has been great. Frankly, I am bit surprised by all the undeserved vitriol. I do think seasons 2, 6, and 7 are a bit on the weaker side (though Season 6 has the best episode ever in “Winds of Winter” so there’s that). When I say “weaker”, what I mean is for GoT standards; I still hugely enjoyed all of them. I recently re-watched Season 5 (again) and I was once more reminded of how good it was, some minor imperfections aside. Similar to S8, it also was on the receiving end of this total over-the-top backlash which is baffling to me.

  16. I’m still afraid to watch. I know I’ve always been the type to say I’m fine with the ending no matter how it ends, so long as it feels earned and makes sense within the story we’ve spent so much time reading/watching. However, killing the two main characters at the end would be hard to handle. I can’t escape the feeling that we are going to lose one of them tonight.

    I keep going back and forth on what could happen, parsing through cast interviews to try and find clues. Three things stood out:

    1. Sophie Turner stating that Sansa would go behind her family’s back(revealing Jon’s identity) and risk tearing her family apart.

    2. Emilia Clarke describing having filmed her final scene and worrying that it is the final taste people would be left with her character.

    3. Maisie Williams saying that all of the major players this season would be female.

    My fear, Jon dies this episode because of something Dany does. Dany is killed in the final episode, with Sansa,Tyrion, and Arya being responsible.

  17. First time post, but better late than never! Looking forward (nervously) to tonight and can’t believe just 2 to go…hopefully people will just enjoy and not be too negative if things don’t go the way they think they “should” end. While some is justified, I think a lot of the criticism this season is because people are trying to convince themselves the show is not as good anymore so won’t feel so bad when it ends…we will all miss it when it is gone, so enjoy…

    I have to think that there is some significance to us not seeing Arya and Sansa’s reaction to Jon’s parentage last week…maybe to hide some plotting in the way they obviously did off-screen last season about LF…

  18. On tonight’s episode: Sansa saves the day as the Dark Phoenix. D&D: Bet you didn’t see this coming.

  19. Mr Fixit: I also do not subscribe to the opinion that the first four seasons are clearly better. I’ll have to see how this season turns out to form a definitive opinion, but so far Season 8 has been great. Frankly, I am bit surprised by all the undeserved vitriol. I do think seasons 2, 6, and 7 are a bit on the weaker side (though Season 6 has the best episode ever in “Winds of Winter” so there’s that). When I say “weaker”, what I mean is for GoT standards; I still hugely enjoyed all of them. I recently re-watched Season 5 (again) and I was once more reminded of how good it was, some minor imperfections aside. Similar to S8, it also was on the receiving end of this total over-the-top backlash which is baffling to me.

    It’s only the oral minority , the viewing numbers are all up big, the silent majority seems entertained.

  20. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think it is unlikely that Jon will die in this episode, if he dies at all. There would be many who would not watch the final episode if that happened. Same with Dany. (Plus, I’ll be annoyed if Jon dies fighting Dany’s war with Cersei, tbh.)

    I think Jon will find out Sansa blabbed and will be annoyed and that will cause more friction between Jon and Dany. Jon won’t totally turn on Sansa though and will want to her her reasons, whereas Dany will be like ‘I told you so’ (which she did).

    Emilia’s comments do worry me, suggesting Dany does something terrible.

    I think so far, the major players have been women. I doubt Jon, Tyrion and Jamie will stay in the background completely. They HAVE to do something, otherwise their characters have become pointless.

  21. I’ve decided to pretend episode 4 does not exist and in my head I’ve imagined something far better. Now I’m super excited again. But only because this is George’s ending to be honest. I have completely lost my faith in D&D.

  22. Been out to dinner and now home drinking all the wine in preparation for 2am. I fear I am going to need to be drunk for tonight’s episode. I am worried about how this story ends, but I am most worried about Jon. Stay safe Jon!

  23. Che,

    I’m staying up (with some alcohol) to watch. I then need to get up and be ready for the day! Not sure I’m going to be able to sleep but I wouldn’t sleep if went to bed without watching because I would be wondering what I was missing!

    Good luck to anyone who meets me at anytime on Monday!

  24. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I’m still afraid to watch. I know I’ve always been the type to say I’m fine with the ending no matter how it ends, so long as it feels earned and makes sense within the story we’ve spent so much time reading/watching. However, killing the two main characters at the end would be hard to handle. I can’t escape the feeling that we are going to lose one of them tonight.

    I keep going back and forth on what could happen, parsing through cast interviews to try and find clues. Three things stood out:

    1. Sophie Turner stating that Sansa would go behind her family’s back(revealing Jon’s identity) and risk tearing her family apart.

    2. Emilia Clarke describing having filmed her final scene and worrying that it is the final taste people would be left with her character.

    3. Maisie Williams saying that all of the major players this season would be female.

    My fear, Jon dies this episode because of something Dany does. Dany is killed in the final episode, with Sansa,Tyrion, and Arya being responsible.

    I don’t see any of the Core 7 dying tonight (AeJon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Jaime, Cersei). They need something big for the finale, unless this battle spills into the next episode. Cersei is a snake and David and Dan love Lena. She’ll make it to the finale and meet her demise next week. Emilia had an Omaze campaign with the winner getting to watch the finale with her next week. That would be an odd campaign if Daenerys dies tonight and isn’t in the finale. I guess AeJon is the most likely out of them all, but there’s more story left with the AeJon reveal/true heir to the throne for AeJon to just fall to a Gold Cloak or Euron in battle. That would be too easy and eliminate all the “drama” around AeJon/Dany/Iron Throne. Sansa isn’t even in KL so she’s safe. Tyrion shouldn’t be fighting in the battle so he’s safe. Arya and Jaime are wild cards, so we’ll see.

    I expect spectacle tonight, but no major deaths.

  25. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I think Cersei or Dany dying is more likely than Jon but I agree Jon is on this list as well. I expect this episode to be intense and next week’s more calm and “wrapsy” for lack of a better word.

    Do you think the battle will be completed by the end of tonight’s episode?

  26. Jack Bauer 24,

    I think the only way Cersei survives is if she gives herself up. Which I highly doubt, since she was willing to kill herself and Tommen in season 2. Don’t forget there will be a big battle at KL with a dragon, ANSWP is coming for her and Jamie is the wild card.

    Chuck,

    I expect it to be done. They have never had a battle span 2 episodes and this is episode 80 mins. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Battle started midway or later through the episode and the big climax comes just before we go to black.

  27. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I enjoy your posts. Your theories/predictions are always insightful and reasonable. However, I don’t think that Jon dies tonight. More likely next week, if he dies at all. I’m still hoping that he ends up in the true North with Tormund and Ghost.

    I am concerned about Emilia’s statements, too. It seems that Dany is going to do something truly terrible but I have no idea what it is. Killing Jon would certainly fall into that description but I hate the thought of it.

    Jack Bauer 24,

    I think that there will be major deaths tonight. I’m betting on Cersei and Jaime. (But I am always wrong with my predictions.)

  28. King in the North East:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    I can definitely see Grey Worm or Varys snuffing it though.

    I could see one of them kicking it. But with Jorah and Missandei dying, I think Grey Worm is safe. Varys should/will definitely die. Don’t know if it’ll be tonight or the finale.

    Waiting for David and Dan to pull the plug on one of the Core 7. Cersei has been on borrowed time for too long.

    I fear they’ll only kill off Euron or somebody like that tonight.

  29. I have washed last week’s sins away and I am preparing to enjoy this ep for what it is – a big spectacle. No matter what, it’s our penultimate ep of Game of Thrones and it’s been better for longer than worse. Just like House Mormont, Here We Stand.

  30. I expect Euron to die tonight. Think Dany/Drogon will make it a priority to take him out or Yara will return and take care of the job.

    I do think Cleganebowl will happen tonight if it happens at all. I think we will see some sort of surprise twist with Arya but that may happen next week as well.

    We will probably see the Dornish armies make it to KL as well. So I anticipate some wins for Team Dany.

    More intrigued to see what will happen with Tyrion/Varys. Will Varys betrayal of Dany happen tonight? If so, I don’t think he will succeed and rather will be caught by Dany and killed for his betrayal. Tyrion is the X factor here whose storyline I can’t figure out. I don’t see him betraying Dany but think his run as her hand will be over in some regard.

  31. mariamb:
    Tyrion Pimpslap,

    I enjoy your posts. Your theories/predictions are always insightful and reasonable. However, I don’t think that Jon dies tonight. More likely next week, if he dies at all. I’m still hoping that he ends up in the true North with Tormund and Ghost.

    I am concerned about Emilia’s statements, too. It seems that Dany is going to do something truly terrible but I have no idea what it is. Killing Jon would certainly fall into that description but I hate the thought of it.

    Jack Bauer 24,

    I think that there will be major deaths tonight. I’m betting on Cersei and Jaime. (But I am always wrong with my predictions.)

    Jaime shouldn’t be able to get anywhere near Cersei though. He left her to fight with the North, so as far as she thinks he’s a traitor. She has Euron/The Mountain/Queensguard/Lannister army, so it would be foolish for her to let him near her.

  32. Dee Stark,

    Hi Dee, no screencaps or outright spoilers posted yet, but there have been tweets popping up with “links” to see the leaked episode. Maybe they’re nothing, but better safe than sorry.

  33. Pangumpy,

    Hey, welcome to posting! I mostly read (or lurk) but comment once and awhile.

    Of all the conversations to have off screen! Bran, Jon, Sansa, and Arya…what did you say? I hope you are right and that it was for a good reason.

  34. Tyrion Pimpslap: My fear, Jon dies this episode because of something Dany does. Dany is killed in the final episode, with Sansa,Tyrion, and Arya being responsible.

    Oh, so you’re shifting your stance? 🙂 Thumbs up. End this.

  35. Jack Bauer 24: Jaime shouldn’t be able to get anywhere near Cersei though. He left her to fight with the North, so as far as she thinks he’s a traitor. She has Euron/The Mountain/Queensguard/Lannister army, so it would be foolish for her to let him near her.

    I did not mean to suggest that Jaime would kill Cersei. Your assumption that he shouldn’t be able to get near her is reasonable. Regardless, I think that both will die tonight but not necessarily together.

  36. King in the North East:

    How could you know episode 4 wasn’t part of GRRM’s ending?

    It’s not exactly likely, given at least a few already established facts in the books. One, Euron has established his desire to steal a dragon, not to kill one. Two, Jaime has already abandoned Cersei’s plea to return to King’s Landing for her trial, in favor of helping Brienne no less. These two characters are just vastly different as of now in the books and it’d be a hell of a bizarre turn for them to become their show characters.

    As for Qyburn inventing physics-defying surface-to-air missiles fired off of wooden boats, I guess it’s not completely impossible, but given nothing yet that has happened has involved magical weaponry that wasn’t literal magic, and book lore has already established that people tried for centuries to bring down dragons with ballistas but their scales are simply too hard and the only way it has ever worked is with a lucky shot to the eyeball, it doesn’t seem likely.

    Maybe Cersei loses all sense and decides to behead her most valuable prisoner rather than holding her in the Red Keep to dissuade the woman with the dragon from indiscriminately burning it to the ground, even though she’s seen what happened to Joffrey for doing the same thing. I guess I wouldn’t put that one past her since it’s Cersei.

    That said, I can certainly see Missandei and Rhaegal dying. Nobody is off the table. It just isn’t going to happen in such ridiculous fashion. There’s no way.

  37. My prediction for tonight’s episode: The episode will end with Daenerys sitting down on the iron throne after she (mostly) burned the city to the ground.

    Then next week’s finale will begin with her crowning. We have to see that crown that Michele Clapton’s been talking about for ages now.

  38. Dee Stark,

    It’s ridiculous that people are rating it before it aired, but I figured this would happen. It seems like some people are really trying hard to have the ratings be really bad for this season, even though it certainly isn’t worse than last season. When episode 3 aired I was really upset by all the negative backlash and the bad ratings on imbd. Now I’ve learned to live with it and realize that it’s just people giving 1 star ratings just because they don’t like the resolution to one story. Just enjoy it for yourself and don’t let ratings affect your mood 🙂

  39. This will be a climactic episode. I have no doubt that major characters will die. But just how major? I’m worried for Jon,Dany, and Arya. If we make it through this episode without any of them dying, I will be relieved.

    Cersei better fucking die tonight. Euron too. Their stories are over. Enough with them. I’m expecting Varys,The Hound, and FrankenGregor to die as well. Jaime is 50/50. Also, Drogon. He’s a goner.

  40. SerKnight:
    My prediction for tonight’s episode: The episode will end with Daenerys sitting down on the iron throne after she (mostly) burned the city to the ground.

    Then next week’s finale will begin with her crowning. We have to see that crown that Michele Clapton’s been talking about for ages now.

    Which crown? I may have missed this. I remember her talking about the crown that Cersei wears being unique and something Michele was excited about. Was there another crown she has been talking about? I love these details!

  41. So I am sat here in the US beers in the fridge, just watched the first three episodes of the season on HBO 2awaiting what will likely be the final bloodbath of the series. Oddly I anticipate the probable death of Euron with a positive anticipation, feel sympathy towards Varys should Dany execute him, don’t want to see Cersei die despite all the bad things she has done, expecting the Mountain. And Hound to finally do battle yet anxious of the backlash should Dany finally break bad as expected. In short this will likely be an emotional rollercoaster.

  42. SerKnight,

    I know, it just makes me sad because no matter how you feel about what you are seeing this season, they have truly worked so hard on this show and the cast and crew were so excited about it.

    Anyway, I think I am more affected by it then they are. Haha

  43. onefromaway,

    Michele has repeatedly said that she designed the dragon’s head chain that Daenerys has been wearing since season 7 because she hasn’t earned a crown yet. Meaning she would get a crown when she takes the iron throne. I don’t remember how she said it exactly, but it sounded like she was saying there will be a crown for Daenerys someday.

  44. Jay Sabludowsky:
    Although the last 4 season’s are not as good as the first four, they are still better than the rest of television. The last few weeks has been so disappointing reading all the negative comments, and reviews. Now we have only 2 episodes left the enjoy, to anticipate, and to get excited about. I hope everyone put aside their negativity and just enjoy.

    That’s only your opinion, the public consensus is that s6 is one of, if not the best. I agree season five is probably the weakest followed by seven and two. Season eight is better than those three maybe the first too in my view.

  45. SerKnight,

    Ok, thank you so much for responding! I appreciate it. I had not read or seen (or remember if I had) that detail about the dragon head chain she wears virtually all the time. An earned dragon crown, that will be something to see, if it goes that way! Thanks again!

  46. SerKnight:
    onefromaway,

    Michele has repeatedly said that she designed the dragon’s head chain that Daenerys has been wearing since season 7 because she hasn’t earned a crown yet. Meaning she would get a crown when she takes the iron throne. I don’t remember how she said it exactly, but it sounded like she was saying there will be a crown for Daenerys someday.

    I don’t think Dany will ever get a crown, she will more likely die, especially if she slaughters thousands of innocents tonight.

  47. Jon Snowed,

    I agree. I don’t think she will ever get the crown. I think Michelle was just pointing out that she hadn’t taken the throne. I wouldn’t read too much into it, though.

  48. Jon Snowed,

    JSchmeh,

    I feel that she will win the throne tonight. Cersei will die and Daenerys will win, but she will have to pay a big price (burning a lot of citizens).
    Then the last episode will revolve around her as a ruler no one wants and then she will likely die. I don’t see her dying tonight. She will get what she wants, namely the Iron Throne, but what she has to do to get it will be her downfall. Really tragic and perfect ending to me.

  49. With less than 40 minutes I face a serious crisis…stout, single malt scotch, or anxiety pills. In the meanwhile my hands jitter as I type. Twenty years I’ve lived with and loved these characters…and some of them are about to be plucked, root and stem. The one thing I’m sure of for tonight…a cliffhanger. It’s sadistic, but it’s such a time-honoured narrative device. Well, see you on the other side. Watch out for the wildfyre.

  50. My not terribly original or interesting predictions are that Jaime will kill Cersei while Sandor and Arya take on UnGregor. I expect Arya to survive but both Cleganes to die. I don’t know how Jaime will kill Cersei. Will he choke her like the Maggy the Frog prophecy says? Or will he stab her, bringing the Kingslayer to full circle, killing the one person he used to care about the same way he did Aerys?

    I still can’t shake the feeling that the Golden Company will turn on Cersei/Euron and Varys will be involved. I think next week is when he’ll make his move to promote Jon over Dany and all three of them will die. I’m less certain about this one though.

    I think the big reason why I’m not feeling the hate towards this season that so many other are is that I never expected either Jon or Dany to be left standing at the end. Jon’s purpose in the story is lead the war against the WW. He did that. Despite the anger some people had at Arya being the one to strike the killing blow. I think maybe in the books it’ll be a combination of Arya as a fighter and Bran as a supernatural force that ends the threat of the long night, but Jon’s role was to be the one who brought everyone together to fight for the living. The subversion of the hidden prince trope will be that he doesn’t live to take the throne.

    I do agree that season 7 and 8 have been too rushed. I think maybe D&D were originally hoping that they’d get the last two books, or at least ADWD to go off of and were stretching things out until then. Maybe if they’d known that wouldn’t happen, they’d condense some of the Dorne and Ramsay shit and let the endgame (not an Avengers reference) play out on a more reasonable pace. However, we already know that the main plot and fates of the main characters are at least broadly, what GRRM has planned. I think a lot of the vitriol is not about the legit pacing criticism, but more rooted in pet theories being destroyed by what will turn out to be book cannon. People spent years, for those who read AGOT when it was first published, decades coming up with fan theories. Many of those hopes and dreams are dashed. And people are mad. Maybe GRRM was smart to not publish the last two books until after the show is done. D&D are getting the hate instead of him. Jons fans and Dany fans had a lot invested in one or both together ending up on top and are mourning the increasingly likely possibility that it ain’t happening.

    I think either there won’t be a unified Seven Kingdoms at all, there will be an independent North and South run by Sansa and Tyrion respectively or there will still be a Seven Kingdoms run by Sansa + Tyrion. So I’m not mad about the prospect of Jon and Dany crashing and burning. I always thought it would happen.

    Now, my main questions are:

    1) What was that new Prince of Dorne reference? Was that throwaway line to wrap things up? Or do we have some vengeful Dornish showing up at the eleventh hour to help team Starkgaryen win?

    2) Who takes Euron out? Given his hard on for controlling Dany and her dragons (now dragon), it would be fitting for him to get Dracarysed. It could be Yara showing up out of nowhere. She certainly has every motivation to take him out. But my secret hope is for Arya to wear the face of a recently Valonqared Cersei. She hasn’t done the faceless girl thing yet this season. I’d like to see her do it again. If Arya can’t scratch Cersei off her list herself, maybe she’ll at least get to use her likeness to take out another enemy.

    3) Is Bran totally out of the story? I’d really like him to do something else besides just tell Jon his parentage.

    4) What is Davos’ role in the last two episodes? He was so great as the angel to Melisandre’s devil on Stannis’ shoulder, but lately he hasn’t done much besides be a loyal friend to Jon who makes some good quips.

    Anyway, this comment went on longer than I anticipated, but to close, I had no idea so many people view season 6 as weak. Why? I think it’s one of the strongest. Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter are two of the best episodes in the whole series and two of the best episodes of TV ever. The Hodor reveal and TOJ reveal were both brilliant and devastating. Arya and Sansa taking back their identity as Starks was compelling and beautiful. Olenna’s death scene and Dany setting sail for Westeros were in different ways two of the most epic scenes of the series. How is season 6 weak? The Dorne stuff was meh. But other than that, it was fantastic.

  51. Jon Snowed: That’s only your opinion, the public consensus is that s6 is one of, if not the best. I agree season five is probably the weakest followed by seven and two. Season eight is better than those three maybe the first too in my view.

    I agree completely. Season 5 is by far and away the weakest season of the show, and if it weren’t for the absolute excellence of its final 4 episodes, it would have at best been a “good” season.

    It also fascinates me when people lob the first 4 seasons together as an amorphous block of quality. Season 2 is second only to Season 5 as the weakest of the show’s run, even though I’ve definitely rewatched it the most over the years. Not bad by any means, but aside from Theon, Tyrion, and Arya’s arcs, it’s very unremarkable, just like A Clash of Kings IMO.

  52. Characters who are, imo, definitely going to die:

    Cersei
    Euron
    The Mountain
    Daenerys

    Characters who will PROBABLY die:
    Jaime
    Grey Worm
    Sandor Clegane

    Characters who may/may not die:

    Jon Snow (dies or turns the throne down)
    Ser Davos Seaworth
    Arya Stark

    Who will sit on Iron Throne by end of next week’s episode?

    King Gendry Baratheon, First of His Name (titles titles), Husband of Queen Sansa Baratheon, and the Hand of the King, Tyrion Lannister.

    Tonight? Euron dies, and if Dany does not die tonight (I’m 50/50 on this), then whatever is going to kill her (a bolt to Drogon) will be fired tonight with the result to come next episode.

  53. The penultimate episode of the series and we only have 70 comments, why is it so quiet?

  54. Jon Snowed,

    Well, I just wrote an essay length comment that never showed up, so maybe that’s happened to other people too?

  55. Jon Snowed,

    Maybe people are worried about spoilers. Or mixing drinks, opening wine, collecting boxes of tissues, and otherwise bracing themselves to loose characters they love.

    I’m going to go now too and get ready.

    I wish you all good fortune for the penultimate episode to come!

  56. Steel_Wind,

    If there is a king or queen in the end, I would hope it is one of the big 3 characters. Ones that GRRM spent the most time telling their story. Sansa is borderline. While it would fit her storyline, she still lags far behind Jon,Tyrion, and Daenerys in total chapters/screen time. Gendry isn’t even worth discussing. Sorry, but him winding up as king would be dissatisfying for me.

  57. Jon Snowed:
    The penultimate episode of the series and we only have 70 comments, why is it so quiet?

    I was wondering the same.

    Maybe staying off social media to avoid potential spoilers.

    It’s also Mother’s Day today, so people might be with family.

  58. I wish everyone good fortune in the wars to come.

    Predictions
    Dead
    Dany
    Cersei
    Jamie
    Mountain
    Varys
    Euron
    Drogon

    Next episode is a great council, where Aegon’s identity and parentage are revealed to the world. He reluctantly agrees to take throne, in order to rebuild the kingdom.

  59. Jack Bauer 24,

    I expect at least one to die this episode. Not all the major deaths can be in the final episode. And I expect cersei, Jaime or tyrion, jon or dany to die. 3 of the 7.

    Adam,

    I think it’s very plausable that jaime arc ands the same in the books. Him going back to kl for what will go down in 5.

  60. Prediction: Lord Gendry Baratheon will not wed Nymeria, not because HBO is against depicting bestiality, but because the CGI would cost too much.

  61. Tryptych,

    Maybe the final book title “A Dream of Spring” is just that in the finale – the bright, better new world the characters hope and fight for is just a dream, out of reach.

  62. Cruloc,

    No, I just saw the forbidden “l—-ks” word in a comment, and ran away. 3 minutes left and I’m unspoiled. 😀
    Bye for now. See ya on the flip side.

    #PrayForArya

  63. The short version of my missing comment is that I never expected either Jon or Dany to survive and rule, so I’m not as mad at this season as everyone else.

    I just really want to see Jaime as the Valonqar tonight.

  64. Good episode everyone! Here we are 100% team Dany.
    Dracarys!
    Burn them all!
    Burn the Red Keep!
    Burn the Iron Throne!
    Break the wheel!

    Destroy what your ancestors builded!
    From the ashes a new world will emerge!

  65. Catspaw Assassin:
    Prediction: Lord Gendry Baratheon will not wed Nymeria, not because HBO is against depicting bestiality, but because the CGI would cost too much.

    I knew HBO and D&D would ruin GRRM’s opus!!!

    /s

  66. Anyone know if after the final episode next week if there will be a Series Recap with directors and such? Deserves a bit of a long recap instead of the 10 minute recaps they typically do.

  67. Dee Stark,

    Yes I saw it. Just pathetic losers. Hopefully imdb will course correct this, it’s also their image at stake.

    Jon Snowed,

    I think because we discussed what we think will happen already to dead. It was a busy week with discussing everything.

  68. Oh shit, that Gods flipping a coin quote in the previously on. Scared now!

  69. My prediction: everything revolving cersei and dany will resolve tonight. I don’t know which of the 2 will win. Next week Jon is the one that takes out the other.

    If cersei dies by Jaime I think it’s because Jaime finds out that cersei is not pregnant but that Gregor impregnated shame Lady. I think he found out about that.

    I still think the dead of cersei can be the red wedding vibe thing. Yes she is evil. But her dead can contain so much emotion for the characters around it. Jaime, tyrion, Sansa, Arya, dany etc

  70. I see the episode started. I can’t watch it till tomorrow (timezones) so I’m off to bed. Have fun everyone.

  71. Oh for f***’s sake. Not even a LITTLE bit of resistance to this? No “earn their love” etc? Just passive acceptance from everyone? Getting a little ridiculous.

  72. Um…. what?? Jon’s like totally cool with burning Varys alive…. uh…. okay then. I sense this episode is going badly wrong for me already.

  73. Oh gods, I think i know what’s gonna happen. Jamie tells Cersei and instead of fleeing she’s tricking Daenerys’s Army…

  74. New Lannister creed: Keep Calm & Save King’s Landing. The symmetry between Tyrion and Jaime!

  75. Hope this episode picks up. I’m really not feeling anything at all, no drama, no suspense, no impact. 😢

  76. The surrender would have ended it before last episode. “The Mad Queen” feels TOTALLY manufactured.

    I’ve never been on the “D&D Ruined It” campeign before this but Dany would never have burned Kings Landing after a surrender. The castle itself? Maybe. But not the innocents. Their mad rush to finish the series in two seasons fucked it up.

    This was my favorite show, man…damn…

  77. There is a difference between foreshadowing something, and properly building up to it.
    Mad Dany has always been foreshadowed, hence all those years of speculation.

    How they got there? Totally unearned.

  78. Onedon,

    Because they only have 2 episodes left to hit Martins vague bullet points.
    Which is all this season is.
    A live action telling of a bullet point list.

  79. So Cersei will be portrayed as a victim? And the Northmen are now a rampaging, bloodthirsty and raping army? And Dany, what have you done? This makes no sense.. no sense at all!! What is going on?? 😱😰

  80. Um……. okay?

    What the [email protected] just happened??? Like I don’t actually get it.

    All the wine was a mistake. I don’t understand what the hell is going on right now.

    Why is Dany burning the entire city?!!! I don’t get it!

  81. The bells seem to have set Dany off – did see her eyes when they started ringing? Did I miss something in earlier seasons about her and bells? Something from her childhood maybe?

  82. Two things…Gold Cloaks were a complete waste. They literally did nothing. Have to think David and Dan had bigger plans for them.

    Also, did Varys actually send any scrolls out or was he caught beforehand?

  83. Jack Bauer 24:
    Two things…Gold Cloaks were a complete waste. They literally did nothing. Have to think David and Dan had bigger plans for them.

    Also, did Varys actually send any scrolls out or was he caught beforehand?

    I think he sent out a few scrolls. Also I think that girl was carrying one of those scrolls…

  84. Oh my God!!!

    I was soooooo afraid for Arya. Now I can breathe.

    I don’t know how to process this whole thing yet.

  85. HelloThere,

    HBO could or should have spend $200 million on 20 episodes for season 7 and 8. End the season right. This is just bad man. Take 2 years off from season 6. What a complete waste.

  86. I know he’s mad because of what Cersei and Euron did and I get that she doesn’t want her to get away with that unpunished… But she could have executed her afterwards! I just don’t get it why she did it!
    Seriously, explain it to us why she did it!

  87. So, Jon, Tyrion or Arya?

    Which of the three kill the Mad Queen? Because Daenerys dies next week.

    Throne? WHAT Iron Throne?

  88. Holy Shit! Oh my…..Haven’t read anything up ahead but. just one questions….what in the hell did Qyburn do to the Mt?

  89. LMAO @ Jon standing by while Varys burns.

    Although the rest of the episode was also a comedy skit.

  90. They made show-Dany too nice and now people won’t understand her turn, I’m sure book-readers will have a better resolution.

    Also why can’t Jon be with her? Not properly explained. I guess he saw her craziness?

    And Jamie was the Valonqar?

    Aside from that I enjoyed mant things about the episode, some scenes were fantastic

  91. kathy: The bells seem to have set Dany off – did see her eyes when they started ringing? Did I miss something in earlier seasons about her and bells? Something from her childhood maybe?

    What set her off was she was not going to let them surrender. And so The Mad Queen burned the city as bad as Aerys planned to.

    She is a monster. She dies.

  92. I want to cry, but for all the wrong reasons. Starting with Jaime and rapidly downhill to probably the most expensive waste of money on an episode and 8 years of story-telling thrown out the window.

  93. Bran or Kinvara need to answer some questions…. what did Varys hear in the blue flame?

    Who or what spoke the words to Varys?

    Sandor is dead – Cleganebowl – whoopdedo

  94. Well Ser, how do you do!~

    I’m speechless and want the last five years of my life spent engrossed in this shit, back.
    What a mess! Simply a mess!!!

  95. Direwolf Lvr,

    heh no kidding.

    I am feeling horrified and sick. this was all senseless. Kill off the army and cersie, but destroy it all and kill everyone?

    T

  96. Apollo:
    So Cersei will be portrayed as a victim? And the Northmen are now a rampaging, bloodthirsty and raping army? And Dany, what have you done? This makes no sense.. no sense at all!! What is going on??

    :'(

  97. Daenerys is going down. Snow (Jon) in the throne room as predicted and bittersweet it will be.

  98. Pau,

    They made show-Dany too nice and now people won’t understand her turn, I’m sure book-readers will have a better resolution.

    What has Dany done in the books that makes her look less nice? If anything it is the opposite. I think the show has highlighted her cruel side more than the books even prior to this episode.

  99. I cant even think that exists people that likes that thing. This season is sonething that can be even worse than last seasons. Im speechless on How terrible It is.

  100. So they saved everyone from the Night King to burn a million people alive in Kings Landing!

    lol

  101. Sean C.,

    Let’s hope Martin has an acceptable explanation. . .I mean, if this is what he planned as Dany’s basic fate in the books, well. . .😳

    As for Jaime and Cersei, my mother called it back in Season 1. Moms are always right!

  102. I honestly feel ill. As bad as I thought she had the potential to get, this is so much worse…

  103. Last night I watched the merciless bombing of North Vietnam just to force a point at the negotiating table. We’ve become desensitized by war whether it be in Syria or Yemen or wherever. Innocent lives are being lost every day. D & D really hit home how senseless the carnage is. The bells were ringing; the war was over. Mad queen indeed! Dany has lost my allegiance fwiw. At least Arya made it out…btw the Clegane Bowl was spectacular!

  104. ash,

    Well the drama and suspense picked up. But I honestly wasn’t invested in the end, and after so many years of build up with these characters. So much of it made no sense at all. They fucked up. They royally fucked it up- I’m heartbroken for so many millions of people 😰

  105. Lol:
    Thank God, the books are the TRUE history.

    You’ve seen how the books end, Martin has asserted several times it’s the same end for books and show.

    Better executed or not, that’s another story.

  106. Ragnarok! Yay for the Mad Queen of the ashes!
    It’s definitely not over. Bitter………………sweet?

  107. JSchmeh,

    It was certainly epic but for Dany to go on a rampage killing thousands was utterly unnecessary. She’d won. Makes no sense.

  108. Pau:
    They made show-Dany too nice and now people won’t understand her turn, I’m sure book-readers will have a better resolution.

    Also why can’t Jon be with her? Not properly explained. I guess he saw her craziness?

    And Jamie was the Valonqar?

    Aside from that I enjoyed mant things about the episode, some scenes were fantastic

    Well, Tyrion sent Jamie to bring Cersei down there, so you can count him as well to the reason Cersei died – even if not intended…

  109. Jon won’t sit the throne, I don’t know why people keep saying he will – it’s not his character. Did you see his face tonight as people around him burned? He knows he’s half Targaryen – I bet not only does he feel guilt for supporting her, I’m sure deep down inside he will always wonder if he will also go mad someday because it’s in his blood. I feel sorry for him, he will pay the price for tonight for the rest of his life. People will hate his family after what Dany did and ‘he’ was part of that army and carries that family name and thanks to his stupid sister people will know now. His family would never be safe, if he had children they would never be safe.

  110. JSchmeh,

    Me too I thought it was incredible. The reactions of Jon reminded me of Ned when he saw Arya and syrio training in season 1

  111. I don’t care what anyone says, that was one of the greatest things I’ve ever witnessed. You can be confused and angry about what Dany did all you want but the fact is the seeds of that were planted for years. It’s tragic yes, but it was incredible. I feel sorry for anyone who couldn’t enjoy that.

  112. ash:
    Direwolf Lvr,

    heh no kidding.

    I am feeling horrified and sick. this was all senseless.Kill off the army and cersie, but destroy it all and kill everyone?

    T

    At this moment, it’s not making sense to me, too. I’m crying for Dany’s downfall and she’s not even my top 3 favorite character (it’s Jon, Arya, and Ghost). Sigh….

  113. Lol:
    Thank God, the books are the TRUE history.

    Do you really think that the books will be different? Of course Dany will go mad in the books.

    I said it in another thread. Here come the people saying that GRRM’s ending will be different. And when the books are the same major points (Dany going mad), then they will say that either GRRM sold out to HBO or that the books weren’t really that good anyway.

  114. All the speculation over eight years…I think few people thought she’d do this.

    It would have been so easy to write an episode where cersei dies and the army is killed off, and everyone pulls back. I really think the writers took the quickest and easiest way out.

    That being said, it will probably win lots of Emmys for CGI and all that.

    Wonder at the guilt Tyrion and Jon must feel, that they didn’t stop her. They needed a queen slayer and no one was available (well Arya but she got there too late)

  115. Dyanna:
    JSchmeh,

    It was certainly epic but for Dany to go on a rampage killing thousands was utterly unnecessary. She’d won. Makes no sense.

    Of course it doesn’t make sense. She went insane. Insanity makes no sense.

  116. The good thing is, we never ever need to rewatch The Game of Thrones. The best show ever just nuked itself. Good by. I even cannot wear any of the clothes I bought which I was proud of.
    It’s a pain to now see a roundup of the show with its intelligent development in the first 5 seasons and ending up like shit.

  117. this episode made me forgive cersei and now I want danys blood. LOL…..
    Jon snow is a wimp man…..

  118. I know D&D got the ending with Dany going mad and burning Kings Landing from GRRM but they should have realized no matter how you do that it will be hated and came up with a different ending. Honestly don’t see how this would work even with more time to develop in the books.

  119. Isn’t this the prophecy she saw in the House of the Undying? Kings Landing burned out with the ash falling all around the Iron Throne (even thought I thought it could have been snow at the time)?

  120. Sean C.,

    Just finished watch it and think the same thing. So the third twist must be who kills danny.

    They dont know themselves how to get to the end properly. Which really makes season 7 and 8 bad, what was the point of the NK etc ? To make Cersei look good and make Danny the final big bad ?

  121. Jack Bauer 24:
    Who rang the bells? Cersei didn’t give the order.

    Well assuming the bells were guarded, then the Lannister troops surrendered and rang the bells.

  122. And to think, all of this could’ve been avoided if Jon had sex with Dany during the scene prior. Dany just needed to get laid.

  123. At this point I’m not really sure why it matters if Varys sent any scrolls. One episode to go and they do or do not… whatever that is.

    Not a whole lot left now eh; AeJon, Daenerys, Arya, Tyrion, Davos, GW around KL. I figured GW would die fighting cuz he doesn’t care anymore. I guess someone has to stay with Daenerys. Hmm

    Sansa, Brienne and Bran at Winterfell. Gendry I guess plus a few others scattered around that we don’t know if we’ll see again.

    As long as ASNAWP lives I can stomach anything. Man, did she get thrown in the shit again. I can understand Maisie being exhausted when filming completed!!

  124. So now we know. Dany is the force of darkness that Jon (AA) must kill a la Nissa Nissa in order to save Westeros.

  125. JSchmeh:
    I know it sounds like I am in the minority, but I thought it was great.

    My husband stayed up with me to watch this time and he loved it. All the way through he was saying how good it was.

    Me? I’m actually numb.

  126. Apollo,

    I have to agree with you here. Ironically,we went to see Tolkein today . Slow, but interesting. Beginning shows the Somme, that horror that lasted so many years and killed so many. Was this written to show the horror of war? Um, we got it already

  127. And looks like they really did film fake scenes- like the one with Jon and Cersei on the city walls.

  128. Mr Derp:
    And to think, all of this could’ve been avoided if Jon had sex with Dany during the scene prior.Dany just needed to get laid.

    No kidding, right!! It is all about cocks in the end.

  129. JSchmeh:
    I know it sounds like I am in the minority, but I thought it was great.

    You may be in the minority, but you are not alone. I also thought it was great.

  130. JSchmeh: Do you really think that the books will be different? Of course Dany will go mad in the books.

    I said it in another thread. Here come the people saying that GRRM’s ending will be different. And when the books are the same major points (Dany going mad), then they will say that either GRRM sold out to HBO or that the books weren’t really that good anyway.

    In an interview before S8 aired, GRRM confirmed that the show’s ending will be the same as his books’. It may not arrive at the ending exactly the same way but it will be the same. I thought I won’t want to read the last 2 books after I watch this last season but now I want to see how the mad queen story unfolds and builds up in the books.

  131. Loved it. If you didn’t see most of this coming, you haven’t been paying attention. Save your pearl clutching blather.

  132. guess people of kings landing would have rather risen as widgets then be burned by a dragon

  133. JamesL:
    I know D&D got the ending with Dany going mad and burning Kings Landing from GRRM but they should have realized no matter how you do that it will be hated and came up with a different ending.Honestly don’t see how this would work even with more time to develop in the books.

    If they changed the ending, the books purists would’ve ripped them a new one. “That didn’t happen in the book!!!” And a whole bunch of more whinging, crying, etc….

  134. howtathor,

    btw the Clegane Bowl was spectacular!

    thats not the term I would use. What in the hell did Qyburn make? it was almost comical – he pulls a sword out of his body out of this brain

  135. Apollo,

    Omg yes – Daim I’m so confused right now – broken so many things – need to calm down

  136. So I think for fans of Grey Worm? Better get over the next POC dying, cause that Mofo is dead next episode.

    Arya is going to kill him. She will use his face to kill Daenerys.

    Arya may have stood before the Sept of Baelor and have been unable to do nothing. But when she sees the Mad Queen pretend she has won a victory – when all she has won is ashes? That will be it. And that will be that.

  137. Shane snow:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    What was up with the ring too?

    I’m hoping we learn next week. He took off two rings, likely because he knew he was about to be incinerated by a dragon. They have to have significance, right?

  138. Interestingly, unless we get some Force Ghost appearances next week, only three episodes for Lena Headey this season, which means no SAG Ensemble nomination for her.

    Though if it’s any consolation to her, Jerome Flynn is also missing out.

  139. Che: My husband stayed up with me to watch this time and he loved it. All the way through he was saying how good it was.

    Me? I’m actually numb.

    I can understand being numb. Dany went way overboard. When we speculated about her going mad, we talked about her burning the red keep and destroying armies or accidentally killing civilians. I don’t think anybody thought she would go that far and intentionally kill civilians and destroy the city.

    I’m really curious how this ends. She is so much more powerful than Aegon, Tyrion or any of the others at this point. And it’s not like the Unsullied or Dothraki will care that Aegon has the “better claim”. She has the army and dragon, that’s a pretty good claim.

  140. I loved it. All of the chaos and wasted chances and heroes-turned-villains and vice versa and false hope and misdirected belief and human stupidity/greed/intolerance/lust/vengeance and that horrible history repeating itself over and over and over again that GRRM has repeatedly warned us was going to happen. If you think ANY of this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention. Will there be…CAN there be… any redemption? Cannot wait for next week!

  141. Clob:
    At this point I’m not really sure why it matters if Varys sent any scrolls.

    I think he did send them, but after this no one will want a Targaryen on the throne. The scrolls will destroy any chance of him ruling.

    I think Jon ends up with the wildlings after all, but in large part because no one trusts that he won’t also burn the world down. Especially since Brienne can testify that the whole reason Jaime killed Aerys was to stop him from burning King’s Landing.

  142. Ten Bears,

    When she said Sandor – I couldn’t see the screen – it’s like some watery substance clouded my eyes

  143. Steel_Wind,

    I’m actually hoping Sandor got through to her about ‘revenge only ending in your own death’ at some point – that’s how I understand the meaning of his words tonight anyway. The way she looked at the embraced pair of burnt bodies on the ground? Maybe she will finally realize life is worth living after seeing all this horror and death.

  144. LadyMelisandre,

    Well, since there are no books to compare with book purists wouldn’t know unless D&D admitted to changing the ending. The hate this season gets from those fans suggests they don’t believe what is happening this season is based on anything GRRM has told D&D anyway.

  145. Clob,

    “As long as ASNAWP lives I can stomach anything. Man, did she get thrown in the shit again. I can understand Maisie being exhausted when filming completed!!

    ______________
    That’s all I cared about. But she looked shellshocked that the destruction continued even after the battle was effectively over.
    —–
    Arya: “Sandor?”
    (Sandor looks back)
    Arya: “Thank you.”
    😥😓😰😰😰😪🤧🤧

  146. Jack Bauer 24:
    Who rang the bells? Cersei didn’t give the order.

    I assume Jaime rang the bell, since he had a conversation with Tyrion about ringing the bell.

  147. Count me among those who thought this was great.

    Jon letting Vary’s die was because he has always stated that treason is punishable by death.

    I do think Vary’s managed to get a few scrolls out which will come into play next week.

    Dany going Mad Queen hurt but was not unexpected. They have hinted at her cruelty and willingness/approval to sacrificing innocents since season one, however she always had someone who could pull her back or contain her in some degree. Her moral compass died with Ser Jorah and even after learning she was not entitled to the throne she kept obsessed about it always referring to her as her right (even when it was not).

    What surprises me is that so many people have considered this a possibility and now act as if its a big left field surprise. It’s like being surprised that a car that had been making clunky sounds and puffing out smoke for a while finally broke down.

  148. preggers! PREGGERS!! PREGGERS Arya has a baby bump!!! Sandor telling Arya to live…and her saying, “Sandor. Thank you.” She chose life, and it chose her apparently And riding off on a white horse! She was our eyes and ears on Ned’s execution, the Red Wedding, the end of the Night King, and now the Armageddon of Kings Landing. And that poor little burnt girl…devastating. I wager Maisie wins an Emmy.

    That said, it was one of the best episodes of the show. We were stunned. Logistically and in terms of production values, it lived up to the hype. Cersei and Jaime going out as they came into the world–together. Cleganebowl was infinitely better than I expected. I guess the only way to kill a zombie is fire, and the brothers too went out together. Emilia did a great job of showing Dany’s madness, and Grey Worm’s and the cost. Even the Dany-loving spouse said “Somebody needs to kill Dany.” The question is Who? And at what cost?

  149. OK, What the hell just happen? Dany won. Cersei’s army surrendered. The Iron Fleet and the Golden Company destroyed. Then she decides to kill just about everyone in KL. I know that the concept of the “Mad Queen” was discussed, but maybe they should have stretched the transformation at least another week or two.

  150. ash:
    howtathor,

    thats not the term I would use. What in the hell did Qyburn make? it was almost comical – he pulls a sword out of his body out of this brain

    The Mountain wasn’t alive. He WAS ALREADY DEAD. The Viper killed him. The Mountain was not brought back to life by Qyburn – he was brought to undeath. Reanimated.

    That which is already dead cannot die.

    There’s no way to kill something like that other than fire.

  151. Why are people surprised by Dany’s actions? She told Jon she’ll rule by “fear than” when he rejected her. Her allies from Westeros plotted against her. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa. Jon did nothing when she burned Varys. It reminded me of Jamie watching the mad king burning Ned’s father.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m appalled by what she did but it was foreshadowed.

  152. What doesn’t make sense about Dany’s turn? She’s lost everything: two dragons (her children), Missandei, a large part of her army, everyone hates her, her advisors are betraying her, she loves Jon but he can’t return the love anymore, the truth of his birth is out, she has nothing, no one, she’s all alone in a country that doesn’t want her there, a country that sent her into exile and made her flee all her life, and last but not least she’s a Targaryen, and we know the history of Targaryens. Just cause it’s a tragedy and it’s sad to see happen doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense. If it doesn’t, then you just refused to see the signs that were in front of you for years. A ton of people saw this coming before the show even moved past the books.

    Not to mention GRRM is loving your horrified reactions right now, red wedding style.

  153. Thank god Arya has been practicing her bow skills for the last episode. It only takes one arrow.

    Disappointed they flipped Cersei to being sympathetic in the end, this did a disservice to Jaime.

    Putting aside my expectations, I loved the episode overall.

  154. I thought Jerome Flynn was in the credits?

    Also, are Cersei and Jaime definitely dead?

  155. Anyone else not getting email notifications of posts?

    Just finished the episode lots to digest both good and bad! Firstly the good:
    – Varys does the right thing for the realm and earns an heroic death.
    – Tyrion trying to save the innocents
    – seeing the death and destruction was horrific, Dany goes full Mad Queen and her armies rape and slaughter, whilst Jon and Arya look on wondering what have they done. Clearly there will be major repucussions next episode.

    Now the bad or my complaints at least:
    – Varys execution just lacked something to me, he tried to do the right thing yet nobody batted an eye lid.
    – Clegane bowl felt a bit weird, stabbed in the head yet still fine?
    – the Golden Company seemed a bit useless.
    – the negative reaction on social media because apparently Dany would never do this and D&D are to blame as GRRM would never write this and there has been no set up. I truly don’t get this part of the fandom.

  156. Flora Linden,

    I don’t think I’ve ever had such aggressive evil revengeful thoughts and I’m sorry for my posts being that way but this episode awoke my inner dragon

  157. I never thought that I’d say this, but, Linda and Elio, I apologize. You were right. You were right all along.

  158. I’m so glad Arya lived, but she lost Sandor, I somehow had hoped he would survive. She left riding a white horse, like a true hero.
    If this is the way Jaime dies (and no, I don’t think GRRM had intended another ending for him), I’m not sure I care for him any longer. I fail to understand why Nikolaj liked his character’s ending. I’m going to give up drinking Lowenbrau beer.

  159. Apollo:
    And seriously. What was even the point of the Golden Company and Harry feckin Strickland?

    Dracarys fodder.

    (Let that be a lesson. THAT is what happens when you don’t bring elephants. 🐘🐘🐘)

  160. Stark Raven’ Rad: The question is Who? And at what cost?

    Arya. At the cost of Grey Worm as she will need his face to get close enough to her. They are both The Walking Dead.

    The question is whether Daenerys will kill Jon or Tyrion before that happens.

  161. Everyone after episode 3: “This is too much like a Disney story! Everyone got off too easy! Nobody important died! It wasn’t horrifying enough!”

    Everyone after episode 5: “Why is this show so dark and violent and mean!? Why did the things that have been clearly projected since the beginning happen!?”

    My only real complaints were, why were the scorpions such a deadly obstacle for the dragons last week, but now Drogon just casually burns em up? And why didn’t Jaime kill Cersei, even if it was a mercy killing? But the first one I can forgive. It’s not battle strategy or battle at all I’m here for. It’s the drama and the conflict.

    Other than that, it more than met my expectations. My favorite thing about this show and the books too is how it highlights our skewed morality. If nameless extras die, who cares as long as the heroes win? That’s how things are in pop culture. How much death and destruction happen in fantasy, sci-fi and superhero stories? Death and destruction that we never are encouraged to care about? GoT/ASOIAF is different. We spend seasons and seasons cheering the fire and blood. Then we finally see the consequences and it’s not quite so majestic and heroic and awesome is it? It’s not like a fairytale or an epic. It was never going to be. Never supposed to be.

    What exactly was it that people were expecting or wanting?

    Like Ramsay told us, “if you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

    Did people just tell themselves that somehow there would be violence, but it wouldn’t be upsetting and visceral? Or that all the bloodshed and horror of the story so far would lead us to a better future? Really, I don’t get it. What’s the beef?

    Is anyone else with me here? I thought it was a horrific punch to the gut and despite many of my theories being shot to shit, I loved it. I don’t mind being wrong! I can’t be the only who doesn’t get all pissy because things don’t happen in the exact way I thought they would?

  162. Holy shit that was amazing!! So Arya didn’t burn and the Lord of Light was kind enough to leave her a horse!!! That was definitely significant. Also significant, the fact that the Hound and Mountain died by fire. This was amazing!! Guess Dany really did take Missandei’s words to heart. Also, I was expecting a little more from the GC, but oh well!

  163. Sean C.,

    Lol – I don’t know these rules need to be burned cuz Lena Headey was amazing – watching her expressions slowly change during the episode from ‘bitch I got this’ to ‘help me somebody help me I’m alone’ was just beyond description

  164. JamesL:
    LadyMelisandre,

    Well, since there are no books to compare with book purists wouldn’t know unless D&D admitted to changing the ending. The hate this season gets from those fans suggests they don’t believe what is happening this season is based on anything GRRM has told D&D anyway.

    Well, I am a book-reader (non purist, thank the gods) and I’m sure we’ll see something like this in the books + those plotlines left outside the TV series. Martin, however, will have all the time & space to make it better (or not, who knows LOL).

  165. And once again everyone is crying that D & D ruined it. They only ruined the visions in your head.

    The ONLY person that can truly say whether it is ruined or too far strayed from the original plan is G.R.R. Martin. I’m sure after next week’s episode he’ll be free to finally render opinions unless part of the money he excepted had a time limit/gag order.

    It does not matter how much anyone here loved any character or hated any character, it never was OUR story and it was only ever partially D&D’s story.

    People have been calling out that Danny was going to go off the deep end like the Mad King since before HBO invested a penny. Let G.R.R. Martin give us his thoughts, and hopefully some other pages in the near future.

    I have enjoyed the books. I have enjoyed the show. Despite their differences and divergences. So many people just hung the heck up on the version in their own damn heads.

  166. Apollo:
    And seriously. What was even the point of the Golden Company and Harry feckin Strickland?

    Biggest waste of all time. They literally did nothing.

  167. “Let it be fear, then.”

    Oh. My. God.

    So I thought the The Long Night would be the longest, most intense cardiac arrest that #GameOfThrones would ever deliver. They topped it. Somehow, they topped it.

    That episode. Absolutely heart-wrenching, and yet … it all fits. Perfectly.

    “Sandor … thank you.”

    “Nothing else matters.”

    I’m going to need a few minutes.

  168. For me, the only bright spot was the arya and Sandor moment. Most of the rest was either disappointing, not credible, or a combo of the two. Pretty numb right now. Will probably post more tomorrow.

  169. Does this mean that Sensa (who was happily home) is the ultimate ruler on the Iron Throne?

  170. Dany at dragonstone was just so so sad – I’ve never been able to compare Dany to Cersie more than I did during that moment – both queens in their own right suffering with their losses

  171. HelloThere:
    Onedon,

    Because they only have 2 episodes left to hit Martins vague bullet points.
    Which is all this season is.
    A live action telling of a bullet point list.

    And how were they supposed to finish this show, given the lethargy shown by the author on whose work it was based?

    Wait for George?

    You wanted a better ending to this show? Find a time machine and go back eight years to tell Martin THIS is what happens when he “gardens,” or whatever the hell he wants to call it.

  172. weirwoodtreehugger,

    “Is anyone else with me here? I thought it was a horrific punch to the gut and despite many of my theories being shot to shit, I loved it. I don’t mind being wrong! I can’t be the only who doesn’t get all pissy because things don’t happen in the exact way I thought they would?”

    AGREE. If next week every single character dies I will be sad nothing I guess was correct, but I will be entertained none the less. Loved it.

  173. Ice Hunter: You may be in the minority, but you are not alone.I also thought it was great.

    My first reaction was relief that Arya didn’t shoot her final scene in this episode. She appears in the preview for the finale. I’m sad so many here feel betrayed or disappointed in what happened. I think D&D had their own story to tell with what happens to the civilians and the regular people when the government just starts bombing. I agree with some here that I don’t really get it why Dany didn’t just go for the red keep and go after cersei and not just burn everyone on the streets. She did say she would be merciful for the next generation (not this one). I wouldn’t be surprised if GRRM had something like this in mind though. Otherwise Jon would have never turned on Dany. I did like the way Arya’s arc is going and she won’t just be out for total vengeance. I was amazed at how easy Drogon and Dany won the war, but it does make sense. What didn’t make sense is that Dany didn’t send out scouts before just blindly flying into an ambush last week. I am OK with the fact that once she knew about the scorpions, Drogon could fly above and around them and they wouldn’t matter.

    I can’t say I feel disappointed like so many others here. I feel heartbroken that so many characters died this week. I feel exhausted worrying as Arya ran with the people. It was a beautiful scene with her and the white horse at the end. I do see others points when they say Dany didn’t have to just burn everything down to the ground, since she already won. I do see that part and she could have just went right for Cersei if she wanted to take her revenge. But they wrote her that she snapped or she thought she needed to generate the most fear to rule. As she said in her scene with Jon, she chose fear (much like Cersei chose violence).

  174. kathy: Maybe she will finally realize life is worth living after seeing all this horror and death.

    Nope. There is a difference between revenge — and justice.

    So Arya kills the NK to save the people from death — and Dany passes it out to them anyway? Without any reason at all?

    You saw in the preview the look Arya gives. That look was as she saw Daenerys marching out to claim victory in front of her troops. The same look Arya had before the Sept of Baelor.

    Nope. Aunt, meet boot.

  175. Solar,

    For me, it’s not so much that Dany turned mad, it’s more about the pace in which it happened. The past two seasons have been rushed to the extent that it damaged the plot. It just seems so disjointed.

    I’m not one of those who is wailing because their favourite theory didn’t pan out, just that so much of the story didn’t make any sense. I felt as numb and dumbfounded as Jon. Maybe that was the intent.

    But I am pleased for you that you liked it, seems the majority don’t- all the hype from the cast was bang on- we will be divided 😬

  176. fleasome:
    And once again everyone is crying that D & D ruined it.They only ruined the visions in your head.

    The ONLY person that can truly say whether it is ruined or too far strayed from the original plan is G.R.R. Martin.I’m sure after next week’s episode he’ll be free to finally render opinions unless part of the money he excepted had a time limit/gag order.

    It does not matter how much anyone here loved any character or hated any character, it never was OUR story and it was only ever partially D&D’s story.

    People have been calling out that Danny was going to go off the deep end like the Mad King since before HBO invested a penny.Let G.R.R. Martin give us his thoughts, and hopefully some other pages in the near future.

    I have enjoyed the books.I have enjoyed the show.Despite their differences and divergences.So many people just hung the heck up on the version in their own damn heads.

    I agree with you in everything, but even if I have defended this season so far, this episode just didn’t… feel right. Call it rushed, chaotic, too straight-to-the-point… I don’t know, it didn’t work for me.

  177. JSchmeh,

    I loved it too. Jaime and Cersei died in each other’s arms, just the way they always wanted to. Honestly, it’s much more true to Jaime’s character that he can’t break away from Cersei, then if he settled down in the North with Brienne. (Quibble: she was really supposed to be pregnant? It wasn’t a ruse? If so, she should have been big as a house by now.)

    I loved Tyrion and Jaime’s goodbye, and Tyrion telling his brother how much he meant to him.

    I like Arya turning away from vengeance, though they did set her up to kill Dany in the finale.

    I’ve made my peace with Dany as the Mad Queen – they’ve been setting it up for a while. I thought Emilia Clarke sold the decision not to accept surrender pretty well through her facial expressions. She was distraught and furious and high on adrenaline, and then the bells ring – she looks around and the Red Keep is fine, thousands of enemy troops are fine and that’s supposed to be it? Rhaegal dead, Missandei dead and she’s supposed to play nice and let them get away with it as long as they surrender? No. Burn them all.

    While it looks very much that they are telegraphing Dany’s overthrow and the reign of morose King AeJon, I hope they don’t end it that way. My preferred ending would be to take out both Dany and Jon – and leave them scrambling for a new monarch. (Maybe Bran could make himself useful and pronounce Tyrion a bastard Targaryen after all – hee hee.). Though there is much to be said for leaving mad Queen Dany in charge. This is Game of Thrones – who expects a happy ending?

  178. Jon Snowed,

    That almost rape was from a Northern soldier which was a great callback to Brienne killing those Stark men for raping the tavern woman who “laid with lions.” I thought back to Jorah’s words: “There’s a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hands.” And poor Jon not wanting to kill at all after those bells rang.

  179. That was some pretty shoddy masonry work in the Red Keep. Did anyone actually use any mortar anywhere? It’s amazing the thing stood up as long as it did. I think that’s what really sent Dany over the edge. I mean she came all this way and it turns out the place is a deathtrap. Best to burn it all down and start over.

  180. It’s not the fact that she “burns them all” that bothers me. It’s how we got there. It felt SOOOOO forced. Guys, in your rush to end the show…you completely eliminated everything that made the first 4-5 seasons great.

  181. I mean Danny was set up as a conqueror. She’s always talked about taking back what is hers and breaking the wheel, but we never hear what her plans for doing that really are. Setting up public education for the common folk, and creating other civil services were never mentioned. She’s only ever thought of getting power to take back the throne, and now she has. She’s lost what she had to get what she wanted. I think it is a fascinating character arc, perhaps a little rushed towards the end, but all tyrants start from somewhere and loss can deeply affect a person.

  182. Michelle,

    In hindsight, that was terrible advice.

    Shy Lady Dragon,

    Like I mentioned before, my mom called it back in Season 1. Human nature doesn’t change.

    I suspect Jaime went back to die with her as punishment for the sins he did on her behalf. He can’t bring himself to kill her outright, but he made sure she was dead by dying with her. (That’s what I’m telling myself, at least – I wish Jaime did get that fairy tale ending with Brienne. This one is hard to swallow.)

  183. Steel_Wind:
    Daenerys must die.

    No way she survives from here. Varys has likely informed the realm and nobody will support her other than through fear at this point. Arya will definitely have her on the list now. If only Tyrion had listened to Varys…

  184. Pau:

    Also why can’t Jon be with her? Not properly explained. I guess he saw her craziness?

    Think of your aunt. Any of them. If you don’t have an aunt, than think of your uncle.

    Now imagine fucking them.

    Question answered.

  185. Still numb.

    It was an excellent, dark, beyond bleak episode that many will hate, but my first reaction is that it was a shocking, surprising, heartbreaking episode.

    Still numb though.

  186. Jon was useless. He should have watched and ate popcorn on the hill with Davos and Tyrion. Arya will cut a bitch soon. GC pissed their armor when exposed to the dragon. RiP Sandor…good on you. Varys…you died many episodes ago. Scorpions can’t overcome evade and rear/side/below approach skills! Dany must have been playing Diablo during her prep.

  187. Braincandy:
    Why are people surprised by Dany’s actions?She told Jon she’ll rule by “fear than” when he rejected her.

    “Rule by fear” is a plausible strategy. And she had won. Then she just randomly decides to destroy the city after she’s won.

    Jon did nothing when she burned Varys.

    Because, as Jon said, treason is punishable by death.

  188. weirwoodtreehugger,

    I totally agree with you 100%. I don’t think a lot of people were ready for the tragedy the story was certain to turn into. A lot of people in denial who obviously pictured happier endings in their mind.

    GRRM is all about showing the horrors of war. People are the real monsters.

  189. I’ve always been supportive of the show, but this is the biggest screw-up in the history of television. D&D don’t ever need to be allowed to direct anything ever again. Man I hope GRRM finishes the books now and at least explains this mess better. What a waste of great character development.

  190. And so one of the greatest actress on “Game of Thrones” died in a year when she should have shone. Lena Headey is AMAZING actress but simply she did nothing this year. I am so saddened that this performance will not get the recognition it deserves because the script didn’t allow her.

    Arya was saved one too many times this night. And it just became ridiculous.

    And now we know what was the problem with all previous episodes and why they should have been much better. So, when the time came and Dany made that flight, we would understand the depth of her pain. That, unfortunately, wasn’t done properly.

  191. Wow…….just, wow. Still trying to digest, but I could totally see this being GRRM’s ending.
    We thought we were getting ready to watch the “good guys” win, and the “bad guys” lose. But there are no good guys in war. There is only death and destruction. I think the best (and worst) part of the episode for me, was watching Jon and Arya’s dawning realization that they were complicit in what was happening. Gut wrenching stuff. Gwendoline was right. We WILL all need therapy after this!

  192. And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him.

    Anyone else think that at the end with Arya?

  193. HousePotterz,

    It is what it is.
    I’m not giving any advince.
    Maybe finishing this show properly would take 30 episodes and 6 years.
    But this is where we are. And thats how it is.

  194. fleasome:
    weirwoodtreehugger,

    “Is anyone else with me here? I thought it was a horrific punch to the gut and despite many of my theories being shot to shit, I loved it. I don’t mind being wrong! I can’t be the only who doesn’t get all pissy because things don’t happen in the exact way I thought they would?”

    AGREE.If next week every single character dies I will be sad nothing I guess was correct, but I will be entertained none the less.Loved it.

    I liked it. I think.

    Still nauseated and reeling a bit however.

    The worst I imagined she was capable of was destroying the red keep. When she flew off despite the bells ringing I thought she was taking a run at Cersei… That she actually took Drogon on a bloody bombing run of the homes and businesses of the broader city had my mouth literally hanging open from there through till the end of the episode.

  195. Solar,

    My car makes weird noises. Yes I know there’s some problems that need fixing but I do not expect it to die tomorrow! ☺️

    I think you have faith in someone for a long time you tend to believe they’ll make the right choice. I did NOT expect Dany out of all people who has been a hero for 1/4 of Essos to be a villain for 1/4 of Westeros though I was aware of her family history. And for the record if this history holds true then I suppose I should fear for and of Jon too. Because you never know with these Targaryens.

    I am fully disappointed in Dany. She should have been better than this. And could have been better too. Tyrion and Sansa will rule. And Arya will assassinate Dany. Mad people ruling is not an option.

    I think the ep was fantastically filmed for the Arya and Jaime sequences and their acting was exceptional. My hats off to Maisie and NWC.

  196. Need to watch the episode again before I share more impressions. But…I do want to say:

    Dany is not the Mad Queen. At least not yet. There’s no evidence her sanity is compromised like the Mad King. She is a product of her upbringing, of her brother, of her forced marriage and essentially growing into an adult with Dothraki influences, of her expectations (“The people in Westeros cry out for their rightful king” etc. etc.), her successes and her failures.

    Burning the city might not have been a benevolent thing to do, but it wasn’t crazy. It was war. And did anyone tell HER that the bells meant surrender? Because I only saw Tyrion tell Jon.

  197. Solar,

    From what i have seen since episode three, the issues have been with how DnD told the major plot points.

    What was the point of the NK n WW ? If Jon didnt go north n wight hunting; the wall would not fall the dead would not march south.

    I personally dont have an issue with Danny going mad, just dont understand why she kill the common ppl when the battle is won. Watching inside the episode, i still dont get it. She felt alone, but why burn the city she wanted to rule from.

  198. Mr Derp: I assume Jaime rang the bell, since he had a conversation with Tyrion about ringing the bell.

    I watch with the closed captioning on and all during those tense moments before the bells rang there were random soldiers yelling to each other for someone to hurry up and ring the bells. Jaime was on his way down to the beach.

  199. Long time reader. This is my first post.

    GOT is rapidly approaching “LOST” territory with the series ending. The majority of the northern coalition was sacrificed to save the rest of Westeros, and then they kill the entire citizenry of Kings Landing? And what, Arya found the only place in Kings Landing that was safe? Please. Fans getting screwed big time on this one.

  200. Sanrya: Wow…….just, wow. Still trying to digest, but I could totally see this being GRRM’s ending.

    I highly doubt it. GRRM’s book budget is unlimited, but it doesn’t get extra ooohs and aaaaahs from burning them all. It’s a different medium. It has different payoffs.

  201. It was a great, thrilling episode. I have loved Dany since Day One but they got their point across tonight. It makes me sad, though.

    The only thing I didn’t like is Cersei’s death. She didn’t deserve to be comforted and certainly not something as passionless as rocks. Her death in the books will surely be different.

  202. People think Jon and Tyrion were totally fine with Varys getting unceremoniously toasted? I saw troubled looks on their faces. But the sunk cost fallacy is a powerful thing. They put their faith in her. They were wrong. Now they know.

    And Sansa, as usual, was right. Sansa and Arya are the sensible ones of this series. People hated Sansa for not trusting Dany, but she was right. Funny how I’m not seeing Tyrion catching hate for ratting out Varys though. Huh.

    In my post that got eaten earlier, I said that GRRM was perhaps smart to hold off on finishing the books until the show finished, because D&D will bear the brunt of the nerd rage. How right I was!

    That said, I do for the first time feel a little funny about naming the adorable little kitty in my avatar “Dracarys.” She is feisty, but not burn down a whole city feisty!

  203. Gh3ttoK!nG.,

    HBO viewers don’t realize how ruthless and insensitive book Dany is. Still, this episode left me absolutely numb, if viewers complain (sure many will) this is true ancient medieval destruction of a city. Hundreds of such utter destruction occurred over countless centuries, with tens of millions perishing in the ensuing slaughter. The problem with Americans is we’ve never experienced total war over here, except for the Civil War. Therefore Americans have the inability to think worst case scenarios, instead to believe in better Angel’s; this was Tyrion’s and Jon’s grievous error. In warfare count on the bad angels to prevail.
    BTW, someone mentioned Vietnam bombings, it wasn’t our politicians, they were covering for the fact they had no control over our B52 and fighter pilots. I would often hear as a teen frequenting the officers club in the 80’s, pilots laughing and talking about destroying towns highways, bridges loaded with people and vehicles. You see back then once bombs were armed they had to be dropped, our pilots didn’t like wasting them on fishes, therefore they bombed whatever was within site, the more slaughtered, the more infrastructure damaged the better. Why has Congress and the Pentagon created this clusterfuc process of relaying and asking permission for even one kill. This was a consequence of our military men making their own decision to fight war the old fashioned medieval way, politics and the public can piss off. I remember one B52 pilot mentioned he wished he flown his payload back here and obliterate Cal-Berkley.
    My point is, in the end the men at arms decide how to fight, not leaders, which is why Jon lost control. Dany was just behaving like our B52 pilots in Vietnam.

  204. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    I am a big believer in ones environment influencing what you beome, but there is also nature helping nuture along. But in the end it doesn’t matter. Shes dead; at least I hope so

    Oh and yeah, DH and I were laughing at the plot armour Arya was wearing. Glad about it, but still…

  205. Brandon: Man I hope GRRM finishes the books now and at least explains this mess better. What a waste of great character development.

    When/if GGRM finishes the books, I think it will all make sense and be awesome. The problem with the show is the timeline got shrunk (D&D wanted to move on to Confederate, and when that didn’t work out, Star Wars) and so we jetpacked forward in the plot. Now as fans we’re all scratching our heads trying to figure out what is happening and why.

  206. HousePotterz,

    Yeah, if Martin had just gotten “Winds” out at least, maybe reactions wouldn’t be as mixed. Of course Martin is free to do whatever he wants, but still. . .

  207. How can there be anything ‘sweet’ left to come next episode now?

    Was the whole ‘bittersweet’ dogma just because they couldn’t say “the ending will be bleaker than you could ever imagine”?

    I can see how Dany went dark – I don’t know if they fully sold me on the fact that she would burn the entire city to the ground – but what I can’t see is a way back from this that is good in any way… I can’t.

  208. weirwoodtreehugger:
    Everyone after episode 3:“This is too much like a Disney story!Everyone got off too easy!Nobody important died!It wasn’t horrifying enough!”

    Everyone after episode 5:“Why is this show so dark and violent and mean!?Why did the things that have been clearly projected since the beginning happen!?”

    My only real complaints were, why were the scorpions such a deadly obstacle for the dragons last week, but now Drogon just casually burns em up?And why didn’t Jaime kill Cersei, even if it was a mercy killing?But the first one I can forgive.It’s not battle strategy or battle at all I’m here for.It’s the drama and the conflict.

    Other than that, it more than met my expectations.My favorite thing about this show and the books too is how it highlights our skewed morality.If nameless extras die, who cares as long as the heroes win?That’s how things are in pop culture.How much death and destruction happen in fantasy, sci-fi and superhero stories?Death and destruction that we never are encouraged to care about?GoT/ASOIAF is different.We spend seasons and seasons cheering the fire and blood.Then we finally see the consequences and it’s not quite so majestic and heroic and awesome is it?It’s not like a fairytale or an epic.It was never going to be.Never supposed to be.

    What exactly was it that people were expecting or wanting?

    Like Ramsay told us, “if you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

    Did people just tell themselves that somehow there would be violence, but it wouldn’t be upsetting and visceral?Or that all the bloodshed and horror of the story so far would lead us to a better future?Really, I don’t get it.What’s the beef?

    Is anyone else with me here?I thought it was a horrific punch to the gut and despite many of my theories being shot to shit, I loved it.I don’t mind being wrong!I can’t be the only who doesn’t get all pissy because things don’t happen in the exact way I thought they would?

    I’m with you. What is striking me is the number of people in denial here in the comments and probably elsewhere. This is the sad reality mankind has been facing since the dawn of times. A certain taste for blood unleashed by infinite power is a recipe for disaster…

    Mad, haunting, fantastic episode.

  209. RBloodworth:
    I never thought that I’d say this, but, Linda and Elio, I apologize.You were right.You were right all along.

    I certainly wouldn’t go that far, but the last two episodes are by far the lowest-rated GoT episodes ever, and ratings usually go down instead of up. Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken (Sansa rape episode and Sandsnake Snafu) rated 8.1. This episode is already 7.4 and last episode was 6.4. Six!!!! The highest rating this season for Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is only 8.6, which is probably even less than an average episode in all previous seasons.

  210. Where you at the peeps called us haters and irrational for speculating a madqueen Dany????
    I ain’t happy about it but still. Signs were there like or not. I just don’t understand the bell part.

  211. Shy Lady Dragon,

    Maybe Sandor sent her a pony. :/

    Maisie was BRILLIANT, the roller coaster of emotions was expertly portrayed. She did more physically this season than any of the male actors. I hope she gets a lot of recognition, she deserves it!

  212. howtathor:
    Last night I watched the merciless bombing of North Vietnam just to force a point at the negotiating table. We’ve become desensitized by war whether itbe in Syria or Yemen or wherever. Innocent lives are being lost every day. D & D really hit home how senseless the carnage is. The bells were ringing; the war was over. Mad queen indeed! Dany has lost my allegiance fwiw. At least Arya made it out…btw the Clegane Bowl was spectacular!

    I share your perspective on warfaring, desensitizing and the victims being the ordinary citizens and soldiers. And one of GRRM’s main messages in his world building.

    I found the episode seat-gripping. Resisted always believing Dany would go mad, but I see she feels there’s nothing left and even winning the realm wasn’t enough for all that was lost to get there. Thus, her anger and pain released because she had nothing left to lose and lost sight of purpose.

    The scenes were freaking incredible. Gleganebowl was filmed far better than I ever imagined. The final scenes of Arya overlooking the battle torn city, sickened by death. Drogon taking out the snipers handily. Euron dying alone as a crazed idiot. Qyburn being cast aside as a powerless twat. Jon totally not into fighting a battle without a purpose.

    GRRM was correct, of course, that you couldn’t complete the story in 2 finals seasons of less episodes. Still confused how armies build, crumble and rebuild so easily this season. Other than that, I’d say Avengers has had way more plot holes and nobody complains about them. We need to stop thinking GOT had to end perfectly. It never was, but rather, a fabulous consortium of talent and imagination of incredible scenes and heartfelt moments in a world we can only dream about with a mix of fear and yearning.

    I’ll take it and try not to mourn for what a few more seasons could have improved upon.

  213. Che:
    How can there be anything ‘sweet’ left to come next episode now?

    Was the whole ‘bittersweet’ dogma just because they couldn’t say “the ending will be bleaker than you could ever imagine”?

    I can see how Dany went dark – I don’t know if they fully sold me on the fact that she would burn the entire city to the ground – but what I can’t see is a way back from this that is good in any way… I can’t.

    The only thing I can see now that would be even remotely “sweet”, is that a completely new system of governing comes about, which champions the plight of the common man. A breaking of the wheel, as it were.

  214. Ginevra: I certainly wouldn’t go that far, but the last two episodes are by far the lowest-rated GoT episodes ever, and ratings usually go down instead of up.Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken (Sansa rape episode and Sandsnake Snafu) rated 8.1.This episode is already 7.4 and last episode was 6.4.Six!!!!The highest rating this season for Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is only 8.6, which is probably even less than an average episode in all previous seasons.

    There were people downvoting the episode with 1-point votes hours before it premiered. Same with previous episodes. I didn’t like it, but don’t take IMDB or other rating webs as something reliable.

  215. Flora Linden: Yeah, if Martin had just gotten “Winds” out at least, maybe reactions wouldn’t be as mixed.

    You are assuming Cersei makes it alive out of TWoW. I expect that she does not.

    Cleganebowl will happen in book 6, not 7. The Mountain will lose that fight. And Cerseit will be executed by the Church.

    There is no “boom goes Sept of Baelor” in GRRM’s tale. The “little brother” that kills her is Sandor Clegane.

  216. I am shocked. I was ready for fire and blood and thought everything that happened up until the bells rang made complete sense. And when she looked at the red keep I thought it would have also made sense for her to go on and destroy it with Cersei in it, as happened. For many reasons. But to burn the city . . . a completion of Aerys arc? I just don’t know how to think about it. That even in victory, she needed to demonstrate that she will be merciless so as to instill the kind of fear she will need to rule? Or in looking at the red keep something in her snapped about how she would never be able to rule as her ancestors did?

    So Tyrion leaves her service?

    Jon challenges Daenerys?

    Arya kills the queen?

    A great council meets in the ruins of kings landing?

    I still think this ends with jon going into exile beyond the wall and reuniting with Ghost.

    And how about that Maise Williams? She is getting some awesome screentime and scenes this season!

  217. Che: My husband stayed up with me to watch this time and he loved it. All the way through he was saying how good it was.

    Me? I’m actually numb.

    My first reaction was that it was the weakest of S8 but still good overall. Looking on social media people either love it or hate it. The majority of hate revolves around people not believing Dany would do that.

  218. I am still stuck on Sansa’s line

    maybe there is another

    Did she mean her brother or was she proposing another candidate? Herself?

  219. Ginevra,

    After episode 3 it didn’t matter what happened in episodes 4-6 they were always going to be the lowest rated of all time. Once episode 3 aired and was a disappointment it became the trend to hate the show and writers and nerd rage about how it has all been ruined. They weren’t going to suddenly change their mind about the show after nerd raging so hard after episode 3.

  220. Mladen,

    I agree about Lena. But I do love her final conversation with Jaime. It was beautifully acted on both parts. As for Arya- i believe that was intentional and meant to be fantastical. There is more to come next episode I think. She didn’t necessarily dodge that fire. I think she did not burn. She was surrounded by ash and that horse was waiting for her. Colour me intrigued.

  221. Fantastic. Loved it. Exactly what people were NOT expecting. No full explanation yet of Dany’s Rampage but maybe that comes next week. Regardless, she was hedging towards crazy for the last two episodes and has shown this in every season.

    Hearing the bells and pulling back would have been 100% cliche which everyone would have bitched about. So Dany going nuts and ballistic…sure, I c an see that. It’s in her blood, she’s shown the signs, was just betrayed by Varys and Jon who shafted her as well. So when she had the chance she just said…screw it. I’m done.

    Lots of hate on here and that sucks. That episode was masterful. Suspense was on point. Build up with music. CGI of course. The pacing and craziness and horror was wonderfully done by Miguel.

    Some issues of course like every show ever created. Didn’t like Euron coming out of water right when Jaime was there. Gold cloaks were a waste but whatever. I LIKE the red herrings that this show has created.

    One of the best scenes in this entire series was the Tyrion / Jaime farewell. I legit cried while my wife was looking at me like I was weird. Such good acting and the writing for that scene was perfect IMO.

    In this environment of hatred for D&D and excess fandom for hate in general, I am very happy with how it played out tonight. With this crowd I’m sure I’m in the minority. Lots and lots of you waiting to spew ugliness.

    That was amazing entertainment. And with GRRM giving D&D the ending…y’all can expect the same in 28 years when the books are finished.

  222. Shy Lady Dragon,

    You’re welcome! I’m not mad at Jaime’s decision, but it’s sad that he gave up on himself and thought being with Cersei is inevitable, even after a second chance with Brienne. Dany gave up on herself too, just sad.

    Jon Snowed,

    I guess not all perished at the Winterfell battle. Or she gained CGI powers.

    Tyjon,

    Thanks for the bombing stories. I’m currently reading a book on the Russian Romanovs, and all the wars they engaged in took thousands of lives. Until you see and experience it yourself, you never realize how terrible war destruction is.

  223. Apollo,

    No, but I also don’t remember anyone telling her that the bells meant surrender.

    Also, anger and revenge are not insanity.

  224. It was perfect. Everything was perfect. The music elevated every scene to the level of brilliance.

    It was not what I imagined; it was better.

    The Clegane battle, with the building collapsing about them and Drogo flying above, could not have been better.

    Varys, silly Varys, not a good twist to his tale. Harry Strickland, just a misdirection after all. How cool was that?

    I had hoped Jon would be killed, but I don’t mind at all that he is still standing. I hope next week Dany tells Drogo to DRACARYS Jon, and Jon emerges unscathed from the flames, because he is a true Targaryen. I still hope Dany rules (or anyone other than Jon), but I’m so happy with the artistry of this episode, I can accept any ending, even the obvious.

  225. I found the episode seat-gripping.Resisted always believing Dany would go mad, but I see she feels there’s nothing left and even winning the realm wasn’t enough for all that was lost to get there.Thus, her anger and pain released because she had nothing left to lose and lost sight of purpose.

    The scenes were freaking incredible.Gleganebowl was filmed far better than I ever imagined.The final scenes of Arya overlooking the battle torn city, sickened by death.Drogon taking out the snipers handily.Euron dying alone as a crazed idiot.Qyburn being cast aside as a powerless twat.Jon totally not into fighting a battle without a purpose.

    I think this is a good interpretation of Daenerys’ mindset and why even in victory she needed to vent her rage.

    And i agree with you that Sopotchnik did a fabulous job.

  226. Apollo:
    ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Erm… so you think burning hundreds of thousands of innocent people after you’ve already won,a necessary act of war?

    You expect rationality in war? How naive are you?

  227. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    Q: With all the tricks Cersei has pulled, could anyone trust that bells ringing = battle over?

    Dany’s facial expressions were not saying “This may be a trap. I must reluctantly continue the attack until I am sure my people will be safe.” They were saying “Fuck this. Burn them all.” Grey Worm, ditto.

    But in the end, it’s as surprising that Cersei went down that quietly as that Dany went mad queen.

  228. weirwoodtreehugger:
    Everyone after episode 3:“This is too much like a Disney story!Everyone got off too easy!Nobody important died!It wasn’t horrifying enough!”

    Everyone after episode 5:“Why is this show so dark and violent and mean!?Why did the things that have been clearly projected since the beginning happen!?”

    My only real complaints were, why were the scorpions such a deadly obstacle for the dragons last week, but now Drogon just casually burns em up?And why didn’t Jaime kill Cersei, even if it was a mercy killing?But the first one I can forgive.It’s not battle strategy or battle at all I’m here for.It’s the drama and the conflict.

    Other than that, it more than met my expectations.My favorite thing about this show and the books too is how it highlights our skewed morality.If nameless extras die, who cares as long as the heroes win?That’s how things are in pop culture.How much death and destruction happen in fantasy, sci-fi and superhero stories?Death and destruction that we never are encouraged to care about?GoT/ASOIAF is different.We spend seasons and seasons cheering the fire and blood.Then we finally see the consequences and it’s not quite so majestic and heroic and awesome is it?It’s not like a fairytale or an epic.It was never going to be.Never supposed to be.

    What exactly was it that people were expecting or wanting?

    Like Ramsay told us, “if you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.”

    Did people just tell themselves that somehow there would be violence, but it wouldn’t be upsetting and visceral?Or that all the bloodshed and horror of the story so far would lead us to a better future?Really, I don’t get it.What’s the beef?

    Is anyone else with me here?I thought it was a horrific punch to the gut and despite many of my theories being shot to shit, I loved it.I don’t mind being wrong!I can’t be the only who doesn’t get all pissy because things don’t happen in the exact way I thought they would?

    100% with you.

  229. JasonLong:
    I am still stuck on Sansa’s line

    Did she mean her brother or was she proposing another candidate? Herself?

    Seriously? She was talking about Jon. That is when she told Tyrion about Jon/Aegon’s parentage.

    ThisGirlHasNoName:
    Apollo,

    No, but I also don’t remember anyone telling her that the bells meant surrender.

    Also, anger and revenge are not insanity.

    Tyrion told her. It was the last thing he said to her in the throne room on dragonstone, just before she tells him about Jamie being captured.

  230. Che,

    “How can there be anything ‘sweet’ left to come next episode now?”

    A Queen loved by the common folk ascends the throne.

  231. Steel_Wind,

    Eh, I’m not so sure. I think as in the show, in the books Jaime will die, and Cersei will be the reason for it. They’ll die together.

  232. G. R. R. Martin is a known pacifist. I cam see how this ending is a metaphor for the horrors of nuclear war (with the dragon as the equivalent of the bomb) but also as a way to achieve lasting victory. This is basically WWII, the bombing of Hiroshima, and the moral wrestling of deploying ultimate destruction to obliterate a prior evil. If you are a pacifist, the only way to show this as something to be wrestled with is to have those we presume to be the good guys (Danaerys, the US) drop the bomb. The effect is haunting. But, I think making us like and sympathize with Dany before she unleashes her weapn is the only way a pacifist makes his point. I can see this as how the books end—easy. But I am sure the journey there will be better handled and much more nuanced/developed that what we got in season 8. Still, as much as I wanted merciful Dany, I can now see this as Martin’s end game all along.

  233. JSchmeh,

    Yes, she told him about Jon… But is that all she said to him? Plotting is in everyone’s blood in this series.

  234. Dyanna:
    I’m not sure if it’s a spoiler as it’s on some people’s tv synopsis but the title is

    The title is “The Bells”.

  235. I’m still amazed by how awesome that episode was. I understood people’s complaints with the White Walker arc ending so quickly, and the believability-stretching Rhaegal kill last episode. But this episode was absolutely incredible. I really feel sorry for anyone who couldn’t enjoy that.

  236. JamesL:
    Ginevra,

    After episode 3 it didn’t matter what happened in episodes 4-6 they were always going to be the lowest rated of all time. Once episode 3 aired and was a disappointment it became the trend to hate the show and writers and nerd rage about how it has all been ruined. They weren’t going to suddenly change their mind about the show after nerd raging so hard after episode 3.

    If Episode 3 is the problem, why is Episode 4 almost 2 full points lower than Episode 3? And why was the controversy over Episode 3 not nearly the hype that Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken took? Like not even 10% of the outrage over the Sansa rape was given to Episode 3.

  237. Did Davos betray the Starks/Dany for getting the boat for Tyrion for Jaime/Cersei? I don’t know why he would do that.

  238. TormundsWoman:
    Solar,

    I think you have faith in someone for a long time you tend to believe they’ll make the right choice. I did NOT expect Dany out of all people who has been a hero for 1/4 of Essos to be a villain for 1/4 of Westeros though I was aware of her family history. And for the record if this history holds true then I suppose I should fear for and of Jon too. Because you never know with these Targaryens.

    Not all Targaryens “burned them all”, though. As Varys said, it’s like a “flip of the coin” with these Targaryens.

  239. ash:
    flintstonewielder,

    ah, ok then it certainly would have if Id said it

    Hey, actually GRRM finished both tWoW and aDoS already – he is just holding them back until the show is wrapp-…

    Damn, I can´t even finish this with a straight face…

  240. ThisGirlHasNoName:

    Burning the city might not have been a benevolent thing to do, but it wasn’t crazy. It was war. And did anyone tell HER that the bells meant surrender? Because I only saw Tyrion tell Jon.

    But those people were innocent…

    Yes, Tyrion told her in the throne room when she was discussing her plans with him and GW.

  241. Lady MarMar,

    I’m with ya, sista. Such an entertaining episode and whatever ending comes my way will be just fine. I know it won’t be conventional and probably tragic and that’s fine with me.

  242. Ginevra: If Episode 3 is the problem, why is Episode 4 almost 2 full points lower than Episode 3?

    Girl, forget ratings on IMDB and similar sites. There is a concerted nerd-rage effort going on by some sub-reddits to purposely downvote the show, incl. creating multiple accounts to do so.

  243. Did anyone catch that glorious Arya was trying to lead the survivors to safety because of the wrath of the dragonlords a la Nymeria? Loved that touch. Heartbreaking.

    Dark Sister,

    Curiously, do you think the horse resembled Dany’s silver on purpose?

    Hodors Bastard,

    LOL, right on all points

    Sanrya,

    Even Grey Worm turned bad.

    ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Oh dear. Yes, she was told about the bells. And she went mad, no question.

    Onedon,

    Because she wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms, through fear. She told Jon that was her angle.

    King’s Landing is just the beginning. She obviously has her eye on punishing Sansa.

  244. Ginevra: If Episode 3 is the problem, why is Episode 4 almost 2 full points lower than Episode 3?

    Some people were hate-voting the episode hours before it aired, even with no leaks (AFAIK).

  245. Gator5000e,

    Thank you for posting the link. Didn’t know they had them up already.

    Watched them and I have enjoyed the commentary of the actors but I’m not sure they have it right. Emilia talks of immense rejection and hurt and snapping and not Dany going mad. I’m skeptical. If that’s all there was Dany would be horrified at the consequences of her actions afterwards. If snapping was all there was. But this is a different ballgame. I think Benioff and Weiss have not called the ep The Mad Queen for nothing. Dany will have no remorse I think. Mad people have no remorse. A person who’s just processing grief and pain realizes what they did. My two cents.

  246. Onedon,

    HBO wanted to, it was D&D that said no and demanded only 6 episodes. They said the could do the story justice in just 6…liar, liar pants on fire

  247. Goddammit. Finally Jon says ‘I love you’ to Daenerys, something I’ve been longing for as I did with Ygritte, only for it to not be enough to overcome the incest barrier. It’s not enough to get Jon over the incest hump and it’s not enough to console Dany. And in the episode where Dany totally goes off the deep end, wholly and completely and I need a walk.

    I… no more tears left.

  248. Though not what I wanted to see happen, I was riveted by this episode. It was horrible and suspenseful and incredible. I am sorry many felt this show is ruined. I believe tonight was a continuation of the theme of powerful people on the verge of victory, on the verge of realizing their destiny, and the lengths they will go to realize it and the weak and innocent people they end up destroying on the way, only to sow the seeds of their own destruction. Stannis burns Shireen and the troops leave him, Ramsey plays with the Starks and WunWun only to be defeated, Robb believes the rules don’t apply to him as to marriage and is too rigid with the Karstarks and is betrayed at the Red Wedding and so on. In Dany’s case, her actions after the bells rang make sense given that she was so devastated and angry and that she had just told Jon that she would rule by fear since she believed she would never be loved by the people of Westeros. Well, fear is now instilled, Kings Landing is destroyed, and all those innocents were murdered. But Jon Snow, who would have been the key to Dany’s acceptance as Queen, is a Stark in the image of Ned and cannot let this stand. Nor should he.

  249. flintstonewielder: Girl, forget ratings on IMDB and similar sites. There is a concerted nerd-rage effort going on by some sub-reddits to purposely downvote the show, incl. creating multiple accounts to do so.

    Yes, and that was more true for UUU than any other episode ever.

  250. How hilarious was Cersei excusing herself from the midst of the Cleganebowl??? Cersei is many things but a damn fool isn’t one of them. After seeing Qyburn dashed on the rocks (literally) and the look Gregor gives her, she said fuck this shit. Priceless.

  251. I have a question about that shot at the end of Arya staring at the burnt corpse. Are we supposed to think that was Jon’s direwolf sword pommel? Does Arya think Jon’s dead?

  252. Sam,

    Exactly. Not all, but you never know who will go mad or not. Jon’s heritage suddenly became a liability in my eyes. Maybe Tormund is right and he’s got the North in him, the real North to such an extent that cancels out whatever streak of Targaryen madness may hypothetically possess him. And maybe not having a dragon is also helpful. But it’s a 50% chance at this point for me.

  253. I’ve rewatched the episode and I’ve realized why it failed for me: pace and time. Too much or too little, never the right amount. It’s been more a nuisance than a serious problem for me these last seasons, but tonight it became too obvious for my taste.

    I’ve got nothing against the plot, it’s been soooooo foreshadowed both in books and the show that it’s almost formulaic and boring XD

  254. First I should say that I still believe this is the best TV series ever. Second, I’ve been drinking for hours, so that may cloud my judgement.

    My impression? I was mostly disappointed.

    I was disappointed in Varys’s death. I figured he’d at least have caused some notable damage before getting caught and torched. I was surprised Jon was seemingly okay with the method of execution.

    I was disappointed that Jaime got captured (made no sense to me) and that it was so easy for Tyrion to help him escape.

    I loved that Jaime struggled to make it back to Cercei, getting blocked at the gates etc. This felt real to me.

    I was disappointed that Euron so easily survived being torched, unscathed. And that he so conveniently washed up in the tiny alcove where Jaime was. Euron was a lame character and Jaime’s story should not have included any further interaction with him.

    I was disappointed that Jon wasn’t a more prominent figure in this episode. I did feel that his misgivings were real, but he still felt like a second-class character.

    I was disappointed that Cercei just kind of melted down into tears and didn’t have any tricks up her sleeve aside from the stingers.

    I was disappointed that The Mountain was a zombie that could not be killed. Sandor deserved a better opponent. I mean, I bought the fact that he was sort-of brought back to life, but I was never under the impression that he was basically immortal.

    I was disappointed that Jaime’s entire storyline, one of the very best in the show, was reduced to rubble. Literally. At the very least he could have off’ed Cercei when it was clear there was no hope, making him both simultaneously a hero and villain. Highlighting his never-ending conflict. Instead he just comforted her? Eh.

    I was disappointed that Cercei (supposedly) died in such a anti-climactic way. I find myself hoping that she emerges from the rubble next week and somehow keeps the iron throne.

    The only plot that I loved about this episode was Sandor and Arya.

    Aside from that, I thought the cinematography was outstanding and the music was perfect.

  255. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    Burning the city might not have been a benevolent thing to do, but it wasn’t crazy. It was war. And did anyone tell HER that the bells meant surrender? Because I only saw Tyrion tell Jon.

    You’re wrong! Tyrion told it Dany when she said that mercy is their strength and not their weakness and told Grey Worm to ready the Unsullied. It’s around the 18th minute.

  256. So Drogon has a flame that just tears through massive buildings and walls, but Jon can hide behind a small rock and be safe from Viserion. Either way, I feel like having s’mores for dessert.

  257. I agree with those who enjoyed GOT tonight. It wasn’t what I expected, but it made sense to me and felt right. I was afraid there would be too much magic (face stealing, etc.), but the story was straightforward and the character scenes were enlightening. It was great!

  258. Ten Bears:
    Minor detail: First time Arya ever addresses the Hound as “Sandor.”

    I mentally noted that. 😊
    ———-
    While the story isn’t finishing how I want it to, I’m doing my best to enjoy what I’m seeing. However, what I am thinking is that because the story isn’t ending in my personal favorite way it will be easier for me to accept that it’s over and move on.

  259. Well, Dany finally had her “fuck it” moment. We’ve all been there.

    Mine was during a hockey game, when some guy was being a little too rough with our goalie. “Fuck it,” I thought, and skated over and cross checked him as hard as I could. It wasn’t rational. I didn’t care about the consequences. I just said, “fuck it, this is what I’m doing.”

    Emilia Clarke has been brilliant this season. She has played nearly all of her scenes to perfection. If there is anything lacking in the plotting that has led Dany to this point (and, yes, I’ll concede that there is), her performance has gone a long, long way to mitigating the flaws.

    Through Emilia’s facial expressions, I was able to recognize that Dany had her “fuck it” moment.

    The city had fallen. She had won. Thousands of her enemies lay dead, and many more were at her mercy. Cersei Lannister still lives.

    Why? Why should they live, when Missandei does not? When Rhaegal does not? When Jorah does not? Did I not come here to break the wheel?

    Well, fuck it. This is me breaking the wheel.

    And next week, she will have come down off that dragon and will have to face the consequences of her decision.

    I have a feeling it will be more than 2 minutes in the penalty box.

  260. That almost rape was from a Northern soldier which was a great callback to Brienne killing those Stark men for raping the tavern woman who “laid with lions.” I thought back to Jorah’s words: “There’s a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hands.” And poor Jon not wanting to kill at all after those bells rang.

    I think Arya trying to help those huddling women and children by getting them out of the city was a great callback to Sansa in Blackwater too. They both have different ways of trying to help, but they both did try. They seem so different and at odds at the beginning of the series, but in the end, they have so much more in common then they thought. I like that. It’s also why I think the one ray of hope in such a dark episode is that as vengeful as Arya is, she won’t ever murder civilians to take vengeance. If she does kill Dany, it’ll be sneaky and there won’t be any collateral damage besides maybe Grey Worm.

    Wow. Sapochnik is a fucking BEAST!!!

    Yes. One of things I always thought the books did so much better than the TV series was show us how devastating and brutal war really is. How the most vulnerable people suffer and die so that the wealthy and powerful can grasp for more wealth and power. Finally the show brought this home for us. I keeping coming back to the word “visceral.” Sapochnik really, really didn’t spare us. The audience was not let off the hook for cheering for any side in any of these battles. I’m privileged to live in a country that does a lot more inflicting than being inflicted upon. I expect most of the other people commenting do too. We’re insulated from the realities of war. Not just in life, but in popular culture as well. We’ve been made to face an uncomfortable truth in a fictional fantasy show. Good. We should be uncomfortable with battle. This was some fantastic work by Miguel Sapochnik. I can’t wait to see what he does next.

  261. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    I was surprised Jon was seemingly okay with the method of execution.

    While they accepted it, I’m not sure he or Tyrion were entirely on board with the method of execution – Jon looked perturbed by it after it was done.

  262. Team_Sansa:

    I’ve made my peace with Dany as the Mad Queen – they’ve been setting it up for a while. I thought Emilia Clarke sold the decision not to accept surrender pretty well through her facial expressions.She was distraught and furious and high on adrenaline, and then the bells ring – she looks around and the Red Keep is fine, thousands of enemy troops are fine and that’s supposed to be it?Rhaegal dead, Missandei dead and she’s supposed to play nice and let them get away with it as long as they surrender? No.Burn them all.

    This makes sense to me and mirrors Emilia’s comments in the post-episode materials.

  263. Ten Bears,

    That was such a small and intimate thing to do. I positively loved it. It reminded me that Arya still has a vulnerability and she still has a choice. I’m not sure she’ll make that choice now she’s seen Dany do the whole “light them all up” number on KL but it was there and Sandor allowed her to considering it for a 1/5 of the ep.

  264. fleasome:
    And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him.
    Anyone else think that at the end with Arya?

    You beat me to it. Yea, I thought it right away, the Pale Mare. One of the things Quaithe warned Dany about was the pale mare. In the books, anyway.

  265. Jack Bauer 24,

    the little lady wants a pony? (sandor to arya back ages ago) And it was white? I dunno, she had lots of plot armor tonight, may as well have a horse.

  266. TormundsWoman:
    Sam,

    Exactly. Not all, but you never know who will go mad or not. Jon’s heritage suddenly became a liability in my eyes. Maybe Tormund is right and he’s got the North in him, the real North to such an extent that cancels out whatever streak of Targaryen madness may hypothetically possess him. And maybe not having a dragon is also helpful. But it’s a 50% chance at this point for me.

    I’ve always seen Dany as fire, full of fiery feelings and emotions and completely ungoverned and unchecked by ice-cold logic. Pure ice-cold logic might be bad, too, because you’ve got to have empathy and compassion in order not to be a robot. I wouldn’t want to be ruled by a robot. But Jon is the marriage of ice and fire, hopefully the right balance of logic and emotion. Of course, almost everything else huge (AAR, TPTWP, valonqar) that has been set up for the end hasn’t happened, so perhaps Jon is a red herring, too.

  267. Leuf:
    That was some pretty shoddy masonry work in the Red Keep.Did anyone actually use any mortar anywhere?It’s amazing the thing stood up as long as it did.I think that’s what really sent Dany over the edge.I mean she came all this way and it turns out the place is a deathtrap.Best to burn it all down and start over.

    Lololololol

  268. Papa Legba:
    G. R. R. Martin is a known pacifist.I cam see how this ending is a metaphor for the horrors of nuclear war (with the dragon as the equivalent of the bomb) but also as a way to achieve lasting victory.This is basically WWII, the bombing of Hiroshima, and the moral wrestling of deploying ultimate destruction to obliterate a prior evil.If you are a pacifist, the only way to show this as something to be wrestled with is to have those we presume to be the good guys (Danaerys, the US) drop the bomb.The effect is haunting.But, I think making us like and sympathize with Dany before she unleashes her weapn is the only way a pacifist makes his point.I cansee this as how the books end—easy.But I am sure the journey there will be better handled and much more nuanced/developed that what we got in season 8.Still, as much as I wanted merciful Dany, I can now see this as Martin’s end game all along.

    Yes, GRRM is a pacifist, but I believe that he goes one step further. Not only does he make us sympathize with Dany before the big bomb, but he makes us see that, in wiping out a previous evil (vengeance) we create a new one, and on and on and on. Only by learning to work together, to turn the other cheek, to live and let live, do we have any chance for peace. History should have taught us that war and vengeance will NEVER result in peace. You know that old saying about the definition of insanity…

  269. Oh I forgot one thing. As much as I found this episode to be disappointing, Maisie Williams is a ROCK STAR. She blew me away on every level. She stole the show, and the season.

  270. Dany passed the point of no return this week. She was doing ok until that strafing run of civilians. I have a feeling she will threaten Arya next week & Jon will kill her. Despite the show toning down their bond somewhat, Book Jon would kill the world for Arya & vice versa. That will officially be the last straw.

  271. Ten Bears:
    Tron79,

    Q: With all the tricks Cersei has pulled, could anyone trust that bells ringing = battle over?

    You’re right that no one could trust her, but the GC was totally destroyed, the Lannisters surrendered, and the scorpions were all destroyed… so she really didn’t have any other cards to play other than flee. These will be Jon’s points. I felt like I was there right with Jon.

    When I watched, I just thought Dany had her sites on Cersei and she would go straight for her. I was thinking, ‘I guess Arya won’t need to get there and I hope Arya won’t get burned alive when Drogon kills Cersei’. I really didn’t feel like she was going to burn the whole city on the way. That being said, I’m not as upset as many others about seeing Dany choose “fear” over mercy. I’m thinking she went through with what she told Jon, Tyrion and Grey worm (that she will go with fear then, and save mercy for future generations) She let out the real fire and blood of the Targ’s. So, I didn’t have the same reaction as so many others that I was disappointed in the episode.
    I wasn’t ready for so many of my favorites to die this episode. I thought I got myself much more prepared for their deaths after hearing Jenny’s song in episode 2 as we were about fight the AOTD. I’m not sure what I was expecting, but I didn’t think the death toll would be so high this episode for Jaime, Varys, Cersei, the Hound, the Mountain, Qyburn, and almost Arya. In the end, I think GRRM and D&D are saying that man is the bigger enemy. Bombing wars are something that are quite common in our lifetime, and I thought they wanted us to feel what it would be like on the ground. I thought this was accomplished. Bombing from a distance is in fact from a distance, and you don’t experience what really happens on the ground. I know many here are very invested in their character’s story arcs, so they may have problems with how the arcs ended or that a death wasn’t spectacular enough. In the end, they died, and it’s honestly not more satisfying to me to see them tortured. I thought Jaime’s end with Cersei was sad. I thought Jaime had grown beyond Cersei, but in the end, it was still all about Cersei for him. I do think we saw Jaime’s best self with Brienne, but in the end, he couldn’t abandon Cersei.

  272. Steel_Wind,

    I highly doubt it. GRRM’s book budget is unlimited, but it doesn’t get extra ooohs and aaaaahs from burning them all. It’s a different medium. It has different payoffs.

    You really D&D would have Dany go “mad” and burn Kings Landing down without GRRM telling them this is what he has planned. Prior to this season 1 I was someone who thought the ending would completely different than GRRM ending, and I still think much of it is but something as drastic as what we saw today with Dany I don’t see D&D doing on there own.

  273. Ten Bears,

    When Sandor put his hand around the back of Arya’s head as he spoke to her, it was such a fatherly gesture. That was a wonderful scene for the two of them, fitting as the last scene together. Sigh…..

  274. ash:
    Jack Bauer 24,

    the little lady wants a pony? (sandor to arya back ages ago) And it was white? I dunno, she had lots of plot armor tonight, may as well have a horse.

    She’s had lots of plot armor since Season 6, but this season has been a bit much. She is one of my top 3 favs, but yeah. It’s been a bit much.

  275. JSchmeh:
    I know it sounds like I am in the minority, but I thought it was great.

    Perhaps in the minority, but not alone. I thought it was great too. I loved the Arya and Sandor goodbye scene, and I’m glad she gave up on killing Cersei and went to escape and try to help others too. She might still get to kill a queen, just not the one she expected.

  276. Tony:
    Ashara D,

    Totally agree with this excellent insight.

    Also, Arya putting aside her vengeance for once saved her life.

    Ah! So true. But what will break the endless wheel? Where is the “sweet” with the bitter? I can’t wait for next week.

  277. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    Honestly, I’m with you almost point for point here. I can kinda get Dany going and expect the books will do that much better, there just wasn’t time to effectively set that up in 5ish episodes. But the rest, especially Jamie disappoint me. Also, Tyrion continues to be a shell of the intelligent character he once was. What happened to “we are going to need your intelligence?”. Why when you just burn everything? I respect him for continuing to try with Jamie and to save people, but when the other characters all just ignore him…why does the show bother?

  278. I think there was some horrible poetic symmetry in this episode.

    The Mad King threatened to burn the city down…. and Jamie saved the city by killing a king. All this time, we thought Cersei was the Mad Queen. But it was Dany, the Mad King’s daughter, who burns it all down, while Jamie dies beneath the Red Keep, trying to save the queen.

    Maybe twisted logic, but I don’t see Jon on the Iron Throne after this, not after what he’s seen. I think Dany either is killed next episode but Jon refuses it and goes North…or Dany ends up on the Throne and the end is that the wheel she came to break spins again because SHE does it. SHE doesn’t break the wheel – she kills thousands to claim the throne…sowing the seeds for an eventual rebellion against her, that will start another cycle, with another set of names.

    That would be bleak, but somehow this episode changed my thoughts on if Jon would actually take the throne.

  279. So where did Drogon come from? When Varys is being brought down to Dany, they show a wide shot outside and Drogon is nowhere to be found. He must magically appeared. Without making any noise at that.

  280. Gator5000e:
    Isn’t this the prophecy she saw in the House of the Undying? Kings Landing burned out with the ash falling all around the Iron Throne (even thought I thought it could have been snow at the time)?

    Yep, sure is… and that scene was back in S2 or 3. Just goes to show how back all this was planned? i.e. the destruction of the Red Keep. Same as the dragon flying over Kings Landing in Bran’s vision when he first ‘plugged into’ the Weirwood Net and saw many events.

  281. Ginevra,

    If Episode 3 is the problem, why is Episode 4 almost 2 full points lower than Episode 3? And why was the controversy over Episode 3 not nearly the hype that Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken took? Like not even 10% of the outrage over the Sansa rape was given to Episode 3.

    Because the hatred towards the show after episode 3 was not immediate. The episode rating benefits from the overall perception of the show still being very positive prior to airing and it got lots of 10 votes immediately after airing. In other words, it was not yet trendy to hate the show. That was something that grew throughout the week after the episode aired as those voices grew louder and louder and dominated the social media chatter. More and more then jumped on the hate the show bandwagon. That is why “The Long Night” originally had a rating well over 9 on IMDB but then collapsed as the week went on. No GoT IMDB rating has ever collapsed after its original rating more than “The Long Night”.

    There is no way episode 4 would get such an extremely low rating if not for the fanbase opinion on the show dramatically shifting after the airing of episode 3. If you participle in the fandom you should have been clearly able to see this shift.

  282. Black Raven,

    Then Bran is a bit of an ass. He has seen this and couldn’t tell Jon?! Seriously.

    I do think that the scene he’s seen must have been something in the past though. Wasn’t it established that in the show he cannot see the future? Am I misremembering?

  283. I believe I’m safe in assuming that no one who died tonight will have an open casket funeral.

  284. Adrianacandle:
    Goddammit. Finally Jon says ‘I love you’ to Daenerys, something I’ve been longing for as I did with Ygritte, only for it to not be enough to overcome the incest barrier. It’s not enough to get Jon over the incest hump and it’s not enough to console Dany. And in the episode where Dany totally goes off the deep end, wholly and completely and I need a walk.

    I… no more tears left.

    I was hoping that they’d talk about how they are family. That Jon is family… 🙁

  285. Mr Derp:
    And to think, all of this could’ve been avoided if Jon had sex with Dany during the scene prior.Dany just needed to get laid.

    Yeah, I agree 🙂 Ah, congrats btw on your early comment about Cersei and Jaime dying together. You were spot on with that guess albeit I didn’t expect them to crushed under falling masonery!

  286. Exactly. Not all, but you never know who will go mad or not. Jon’s heritage suddenly became a liability in my eyes. Maybe Tormund is right and he’s got the North in him, the real North to such an extent that cancels out whatever streak of Targaryen madness may hypothetically possess him. And maybe not having a dragon is also helpful. But it’s a 50% chance at this point for me.

    I’m fully prepared for him to die in the finale. But rejecting the throne and going north to reunite with Ghost and Tormund would be the happy ending for him. I’d like to see it. He’ll be fighting their wars, why? Fuck it!

    Though not what I wanted to see happen, I was riveted by this episode. It was horrible and suspenseful and incredible. I am sorry many felt this show is ruined. I believe tonight was a continuation of the theme of powerful people on the verge of victory, on the verge of realizing their destiny, and the lengths they will go to realize it and the weak and innocent people they end up destroying on the way, only to sow the seeds of their own destruction. Stannis burns Shireen and the troops leave him, Ramsey plays with the Starks and WunWun only to be defeated, Robb believes the rules don’t apply to him as to marriage and is too rigid with the Karstarks and is betrayed at the Red Wedding and so on. In Dany’s case, her actions after the bells rang make sense given that she was so devastated and angry and that she had just told Jon that she would rule by fear since she believed she would never be loved by the people of Westeros. Well, fear is now instilled, Kings Landing is destroyed, and all those innocents were murdered. But Jon Snow, who would have been the key to Dany’s acceptance as Queen, is a Stark in the image of Ned and cannot let this stand. Nor should he.

    Best comment of the night!

  287. A very dignified death for Cersei; chaperoned by the one person in her life who loved her, who risked everything to display decency and compassion to her.

    Arya. The kindest thing was said to her by the Hound which allowed her to survive. The looks on the Arya’s face as she made her way through to the white horse were some of the most haunting war trauma images I’ve ever seen on film.

    The Hound. A beautiful, brave leap into the fire to put an end to the evil which possessed his brother, the Mountain, from the beginning but was turned into an undying, monstrous force by Qyburn – who (fittingly) is casually killed by the Mountain immediately when a strategic disagreement arises.

    Varys. A very dignified execution by Drogon. Wise words exchanged with Tryion who admitted that it was he who turned Varys in for treason. The expression of honorable intentions to the last from Varys.

    Harry Strickland. The Golden Company proved to be complete amateurs when confronted with what was left of the Dothraki, the Unsullied and the northern armies.
    Harry Strickland crawled away in retreat at the end on his knees only to be cut down.

    Dany & Drogon. Masterful tactics employed by Dany & Drogon to avoid scorpion bolts with oblique low angle attack runs. The Iron Fleet was the first to be destroyed. Then the scorpion bolt launchers on the battlements fell prey to the same tactics. A through pounding. Then the bells set off Dany even though she’d agreed to hold mass destruction on signal. All her pain and rage of what she and her comrades had endured consumed her. A terrible sight to behold as Dany gave into her worst instincts and forgot her mission in life to preserve the lives of innocents and free them from their shackles.

    Jon Snow & the Crowd. Jon Snow and the crowd are devastated by the slaughter being perpetrated by Dany’s army. Shot more briskly than Arya’s more painful, haunting scenes.

    Jon Snow & Dany. Jon Snow swears fealty to Dany as his Queen. She comes near him and kisses him romantically, asking Jon whether his feelings are just about loyalty to the Queen or whether there is something else (i.e. his romantic passion for her). He doesn’t say. He is worried about the possibility of wide scale slaughter of innocents.

    Dany’s Gotta a Bad Publicity Problem. Jon and a whole lotta people are upset by the slaughter. Her fitness to rule is undeniably open to question.

    Trailer for Final Episode. Ends with a scene of Sansa (fully in control) regally approaching and marching through the ranks of what appears to be an army and/or assemblage of assorted high born fancy lads and ladies.

    Wishing and Hoping – Jon and Dany. Jon and Dany move to the far north and Dany leaves her regal ambitions behind in order to have a life together with Jon. They can move in next door to the Wildings and engage with them in endearing situation comedy moments. Hilarity will ensue.

    Wishing and Hoping – Sansa, Tryion, Brienne, Ser Davos. Sansa makes a good Queen and makes a suitable match with a new Dornish prince that is nice, considerate, clever, useful and believes in the Montessori Method. Tryion is Hand. Ser Davos is Master of Coin and puts the Kingdom into the black. Brienne is appointed Leader of the Kings Guard and substitutes her unrequited love with duty and honor.

    Wishing and Hoping – Arya. She shows up at Storms Landing and tells Gendry that she is who she is and won’t ever change, but if that is ok with him she wants to have tons of babies with him.

    Wishing and Hoping – Greyworm. He returns to Naath to live out his days in honor of Missandri’s virtues.

    Wishing and Hoping – Hot Pie. He establishes the first chain restaurant in Westeros.

    Wishing and Hoping – Sam and Gilly. He becomes a maester through a correspondence course and establishes the first health care facility at Castle Black open to all Wildings who have moved back north of the Wall and those left living sourt of the Wall. Tons of children. Gilly opens a Hot Pie franchise and has an affair with a sympathetic, bumbling, lonely Hot Pie, but Sam and Gilly patch it up. No hard feelings.

    Wishing and Hoping – Bran. Because he knows everything that’s ever happened, is happening and will happen, and actually cares about people he inspires a large majority to return to the worship of the Old Gods learned from the Children of the Forest. He initiates folk singing at services and establishes regular inter-faith services.

    Wishing and Hoping – Bronn: He accepts a small, stylish castle with a pretty wife who bosses him around artfully, but is somehow able to communicate with him and bring out his better qualities. He becomes a Dad and does a fair job at it. Names his first two sons: Jaime and Tryion. Never kills anybody again or even feels like it.

    Wishing and Hoping – Pod. He gets knighted by Sansa or Brienne, becomes a lord and does a good job at being a family man and manager of his estates.

    Wishing and Hoping – Iron Bank. They make a strategic corporate move to switch to small business and consumer financing and usher in a new wave of prosperity in both Essos and Westeros.

    Wishing and Hoping – Faceless Men. Realizing that their religion is fraught with inherent, internal contradictions and that little shits like the Waif only pretend to be selflessly serving the faith, they stop being Murder, Inc. and open a chain of spas focusing on meditation, yoga, hot oil massage, chanting, nature walks, 19th Century English Romantic poetry, and vegan cookery.

    Wishing and Hoping – Wildings. They become conservators of the land north of the Wall and establish a tourist industry that allows Westeros to explore and see the North as it was meant to be seen. Saunas. Bathing in warm, geyser fed lakes. All fresh, locally sourced food. Tormund becomes the leader of the industry and undertakes regular speaking engagements in the South to promote the industry.

    Wishing and Hoping – Yara and the Ironborn. They establish the first merchant marine offering container shipping and a cruise ship line famous for its lack of e. coli outbreaks. Yara becomes a symbol for lesbians and trauma recovery.

    Wishing and Hoping. Unsullied. They invest heavily in the chain of spas established by the Faceless Men and each of them become wealthy, really cool, and relaxed.

    Wishing and Hoping. Dothraki. They give up raiding and make a future for themselves in establishing a modern insurance industry, which though focused initially on personal lines cart insurance, branches out quickly to begin offering multi-line commercial coverage supported by state of the art risk management services.

    Wishing and Hoping. Ghost. He gets reunited with Jon and Dany, grows comfortably old, farts surreptitiously by the fire on cold nights, and pretends Jon did it.

  288. The PROOF that D&D knew all along how this was going to end, probably from GRRM –

    Bran’s vision of the dragon over King’s Landing
    The HotU visions – the “snow” in the throne room was ash

    The fault you can definitely find is Dany’s madness not seeming “earned”, that the troubling signs were maybe too few and far between. Certainly the book lends itself to that better with internal monologues.

    Yes, with more time we could’ve seen more of a descent to this point. But given the time constraints they decided on, I think they went with a fairly plausible alternative: she has this tendency in her, the signs were there, but the grief and anger and loneliness and rage just all snapped her.

    I think that way is more problematic, but I don’t think you can argue this isn’t what GRRM intended. This was clearly in the long plan.

  289. Lundy: You beat me to it. Yea, I thought it right away, AND the Pale Mare. One of the things Quaithe warned Dany about was the pale mare. In the books, anyway.

    Added the “and” above to correct my meaning.

  290. I’m thinking Dany kills Jon next ep, and all those she felt betrayed her; Jon, Tyrion… who else? Dany has all the power. How could Jon take her out?
    I hope Arya doesn’t make her presence known to Dany. I don’t think she would.

  291. Sam: I was hoping that they’d talk about how they are family. That Jon is family… 🙁

    Yeah 🙁 And even that is tragic because the feelings between them aren’t familial. It’s such a no-win situation: Jon just can’t get past the incest while Dany can and needs him to, but he can’t, and… yeah. Two worlds that can never come together again.

  292. Arya trying to drag that scared little girl out of the city reminded me so much of Yoren dragging Arya, then a scared little girl, out back in season 1.
    That made me feel emotional…more than Jaime (a character I adore) dying…I knew he would die 100%, but just not like that.

  293. Dany was right in destroying Kings Landing, with all the terrible rulers, that includes Tru…er…Robert, they never overthrew them. Missandei was right in damning them all, she noticed the people’s behavior toward her as a prisoner and realized even being so called free they were as bad as the Mereneese. I have a feeling Arya’s going to kill Dany and Jon will have to kill her. Then he’ll head to the real north leaving 7 independent kingdoms in the wake of the last war (for now).

  294. ash:
    howtathor,

    thats not the term I would use. What in the hell did Qyburn make? it was almost comical – he pulls a sword out of his body out of this brain

    Yep, that big fucker The Mountain just wouldn’t die, huh! Getting a broad sword through the guts would have been enough and then with a dagger through his head he was still alive and kicking. I rolled up at the scene. Its just fucking crazy 😀
    Perhaps Qyburn did some more research on that wight body which was brought back to Kings Landing last season! But perhaps those strikes Sandor inflicked on him didn’t do the ‘bizzo’ because they were not made of dragon glass or Valyrian steel?

  295. At least the episode was forgettable🤭

    My belief is completely unsuspended. When the mute snow sorcerer’s unsaid demands are more believable than the motivations of characters from season 1…well you get that episode. And apparently winter never came to QL.

    The show has broken its own rules around dragons, ships, battle, and travel so many times it’s comical. And the nerve for a completely undeserved ham fight between Captain Hook and Peter Pan without a Hot Pie or Nym sighting in the Riverlands.

    This show was beautiful for its memorable but small characters. Not because extras got torched to prove humans suck. Every villain on this show has an arc of one dimensionality prior to death that is just grating.

    There’s no stakes on this show anymore. Daeny burns the entire city, unlocks wildfire upgrades, and still doesn’t kill a single credited character? What’s that subvert?

    And Tyrion. My word, what an imbecile. He gets his “best friend” killed for like no reason. In fact, he should be killed as an accomplice in the show’s logic but instead get’s a green mushroom and immediately frees Jaime? And lives to the next morning?

    And the Unsullied raped? Like was that what Daenerys meant when gave GW the secret signal. Don’t think Unsullied rape? Watch the BtE and hear from the two horses of the apocalypse…of people who can’t read enough to act.

    It’s nice to know that Bran has a plan. Good thing he and Jon shared in that plan. Is Bran trying to get Jon killed too?

    At this point, I am looking for a miracle comeback from team trees, wolves, and frozen macguffins.

    And where’s my coin. We will have our do! Lol, don’t take my word for it, read a book.

    One stone crumbles and another takes its place and the temple holds its form for a thousand years or more. And that’s what the Iron Bank is, a temple. We all live in its shadow and almost none of us know it. You can’t run from them, you can’t cheat them, you can’t sway them with excuses. If you owe them money and you don’t want to crumble yourself, you pay it back.

    -TYWIN LANNISTER

  296. This is not bittersweet. How can there be any sweet after this? Only bitter is left.

  297. Ginevra,

    I can see why you’d see Dany as being pure fire. Jon being raised as a Stark and with a Stark mother may be a bit more of Ice but in reality Rhaegar actually picked the fiery Stark of the lot, the wild one.

    I personally think the prophecies have faded away in the background tbh as far as the show is concerned. At least the ones that were mentioned. As a result Jon has been sort of a Red Herring already considering he was set up as a personal opponent to the NK (I’m looking at Hardhome and Beyond the Wall faceoffs) and the build up ended in Arya ending the Long Night that was falling. I’m sure Martin having such a focus on these prophecies and visions and magic will have a different approach.

    I suppose we will see how much of a difference is there when the last word is published. I expect quite a bit though more than likely not all of it.

  298. I enjoyed some of the smaller moments such as Jaime and Tyrion’s last scene as well as Arya and the Hound’s, and Cersei strolling discreetly past Ser Gregor and Sandor was hilarious. Otherwise, the falling masonry and debris, the fire blasts, it all got very repetitive and boring.

    Wish Jon had had more of a role in this episode, but I’m pretty much over expecting a great conclusion for this once beloved character. Jamie was my other fave, sadly his character development/growth got hijacked for plot here and not even a good one – Jamie and Cersei’s deaths were very underwhelming.

    A mixed bag of an episode for me, but entertaining enough. Emilia’s acting in the first half of the episode was really good. Daenerys is not ‘mad’, just in pain.

  299. ThisGirlHasNoName:

    I was disappointed that Jon wasn’t a more prominent figure in this episode. I did feel that his misgivings were real, but he still felt like a second-class character.

    The only plot that I loved about this episode was Sandor and Arya.

    Aside from that, I thought the cinematography was outstanding and the music was perfect.

    I was riveted by this episode. I’m leaning on the positive side mainly because Arya survived all that. I know others would complain about her very thick plot armor but if she died in this episode by being burned as she’s running scared, I’d surely be devastated (and would hate that ending).

    Something bothered me that I couldn’t figure out until your note re Jon. I agree. He’s insignificant in this episode, and has been mostly that for the past episodes. All he is now is the “rightful Targaryen heir”, whom people will seem to use for their own good. I’m still waiting for a big moment for this character but it looks like all he’ll do in the end is retire and brood some more in the real north (if the speculations in the comment sections here become true).

  300. TormundsWoman:
    Black Raven,

    Then Bran is a bit of an ass. He has seen this and couldn’t tell Jon?!Seriously.

    I do think that the scene he’s seen must have been something in the past though. Wasn’t it established that in the show he cannot see the future? Am I misremembering?

    You are misremembering. He sees two visions of the future. The first being the wildfire exploding under the Sept of Valor and the second being Drogon over KL. The throne room covered in ash wasn’t his vision. It was hers from the House of the Undying.

  301. Catspaw Assassin:
    Team Stark: “Soooo, how does one go about offing a huge dragon?”

    You probably need a half-Targaryen that the dragon trusts to walk up and stick a sword in its eye. But where is a Stark going to find somebody like that?

  302. I’m still struggling to process the episode, but this must be said:
    I [email protected]&king love Arya! What an episode for her!

    “Sandor. Thank you.”

    And she helps people trying to escape King’s Landing. And that final shot of her riding out on the horse — gorgeous!

    Lots more thoughts (particularly in regards to Jaime), but I need to let things sit for a bit. 🙂

  303. Yep, sure is… and that scene was back in S2 or 3. Just goes to show how back all this was planned? i.e. the destruction of the Red Keep. Same as the dragon flying over Kings Landing in Bran’s vision when he first ‘plugged into’ the Weirwood Net and saw many events.

    I was just gonna say, didn’t anyone else notice that the shadow of Drogon flying over King’s Landing was in one of Bran’s visions? It was even in the promo materials for the season that vision took place in. Either 3 or 4. I can’t remember.

    Anyway, I think maybe some of the rage from Dany was her disappointment. The bells rang and the city was hers. But it didn’t feel like the home she always dreamed of. She didn’t feel satisfaction or fulfillment. So she just said, screw it, burn it down.

    Kind of like the fandom right now, yeah?

    Minor detail: First time Arya ever addresses the Hound as “Sandor.”

    People are so about SanSan. But I’m so much more into the SandArya relationship. It’s like a big brother, little sister relationship. Very dysfunctional and they’d both deny that there’s love there, but there totally is.

  304. “Back to my favorite domestic canid, I’ve long thought that should Arya ever take what appears to be an irretrievable turn into darkness, the Hound might be the person who pulls her back. Her arc parallels his, in that both were drawn into warfare and killing at a young age and both subsequently developed a deeply questionable pleasure for killing. Arya is still descending into that arc, while the Hound is trying (fitfully, it must be granted) to come out of it. (He did express regret to Brother Ray about the things he’s done.) He has never told her so in so many words, but we know he cares for her—perhaps even loves her as a father or brother. While I think he would be proud of her ability to survive thus far, I also think it would distress him to see her descend into the same sort of nihilism in which he himself was trapped for so long.”

    -part of a response I made to a comment by ACME on June 20, 2017

    I CALLED IT TWO YEARS AGO.

    Now let’s see if I can stay up until 2 a.m. on a worknight reading this thread…

  305. Jon Snowed,

    I say it’s Arya. Jon won’t be able to, and Arya will do it. With the sword Jon had made for her back in season 1. Man this show..

  306. Nadia:
    The PROOF that D&D knew all along how this was going to end, probably from GRRM –

    Bran’s vision of the dragon over King’s Landing
    The HotU visions – the “snow” in the throne room was ash

    The fault you can definitely find is Dany’s madness not seeming “earned”, that the troubling signs were maybe too few and far between. Certainly the book lends itself to that better with internal monologues.

    Yes, with more time we could’ve seen more of a descent to this point. But given the time constraints they decided on, I think they went with a fairly plausible alternative: she has this tendency in her, the signs were there, but the grief and anger and loneliness and rage just all snapped her.

    I think that way is more problematic, but I don’t think you can argue this isn’t what GRRM intended. This was clearly in the long plan.

    Great Post so múch of this was foreshadowed and set up; People were just not playing adequate attention. Some of us have predicted Daný going mad fór severan years now.

  307. Clob:

    While the story isn’t finishing how I want it to, I’m doing my best to enjoy what I’m seeing.However, what I am thinking is that because the story isn’t ending in my personal favorite way it will be easier for me to accept that it’s over and move on.

    You’re right! This is a good attitude to have. 🙂

  308. I used to LOVE Jon Snow. I don’t like him anymore. Jon let his Kween burn a man alive for trusting him with his feelings about Dany and willingness to support HIM the true heir. Tyrion, why? So worried for your own skin you had to betray your good friend from way back? You could have just said I refuse to discuss this any further at any time so you would not be a part of “treasonous” chatter but to turn him in? You knew he’s a goner after that. Tsk tsk. Jon also contributed to what happened by rejecting her advances once again. You do not reject your queen’s affection or there could be consequences, hello lol??? Also Sansa set the whole thing in motion to begin with. Part of what caused Dany to flip is when she realized the cat was out of the bag. So the innocent men, women and children of KL paid the price. Btw, Cercei doesn’t seem all that bad now does she? I legit felt a bit sorry for her at the end.

    Who would have ever thought little Arya Stark would become the hero of the story? I guess those “ANSWAP” (or whatever it is I haven’t paid too much attention lol) posters are psychic 🙂

  309. Nadia:
    Jon Snow has had a totally useless season, has he not? Like literally what has he done.

    Agree its been very underwhelming unless he kills Dany next week to save Westeros.

  310. so I am rewatching and just noticed that Eurons soldiers have helmets that look an awful lot like Spaceballs. Just sayin…..

  311. I think the white horse waiting for Arya was symbolic that Arya has a new trajectory – her black horse is gone, shes chosen life over death. Its second level of meaning goes back to her time with Sandor when she was stuck riding side-saddle with him and asked for her own horse. “Little lady wants a pony.”

  312. ThisGirlHasNoName:
    Oh I forgot one thing. As much as I found this episode to be disappointing, Maisie Williams is a ROCK STAR. She blew me away on every level. She stole the show, and the season.

    Maisie’s Emmy is coming, people! 🙂 Yeah, Arya has been terrific this season (always been for me).

  313. TormundsWoman,

    My car makes weird noises. Yes I know there’s some problems that need fixing but I do not expect it to die tomorrow! ☺️

    The problem with broken things is that you don’t really know when they’ll finally snap. It could be a year from now or tomorrow, but either way it should not be a surprise.

    I think you have faith in someone for a long time you tend to believe they’ll make the right choice. I did NOT expect Dany out of all people who has been a hero for 1/4 of Essos to be a villain for 1/4 of Westeros though I was aware of her family history. And for the record if this history holds true then I suppose I should fear for and of Jon too. Because you never know with these Targaryens.

    The interesting thing about Dany is that since the beggining she has always done the right thing more by chance than by choice. Since the beggining she has been a broken person inside, and someone brought up under extreme abuse by those closest to her (first her brother, then for a while Drogo, and eventually the rest of the world).

    When Drogo first promised her to get her the throne he openly called for the raping of women and the destruction of cities in her name, and she was giddy at the thought of it.

    When Drogo conquered the town of the witch, she did show some disgust about the realities of conquest and to an extent tried to protect those she considered innocent, but still had no major objections to the Dothraki way.

    When Qarth initially refused to let her in her reaction was to threaten them with complete destruction simply because they wouldn’t help her.

    Every time her reaction to not getting what she wants is to threaten (and sometimes carry out) destruction, death of innocents be damned.

    When the Master’s rebelled, her first idea was to lay waste to their cities as a demonstration of what would happen to those that oppoesed her.

    Yes, she liberated a lot of slaves, but that was a side effect of her goal of ruling Westero’s simply because it was “her right”.

    She never set out with the goal of liberating people, that’s is something that happened along the way, and given her own background of abuse, she empathized with them and by default considered them “her people”. Her entire arc, she has always been very protective of those he considers her people (basically anyone who shows fealty to her as their Queen), while always showing she doesn’t care much for those who to don’t bend to her will, and being extremely bellicose against those that directly oppose her.

    What always steered her in the right direction was those around her (Ser Barristan, Ser Jorah, Tyrion). Even Grey Worm and Missandei, are emotionally wounded like her, in the sense that they have no major qualms with pushing for the complete destruction of those who they see as threats (as both were advising Tyrion when Dany was captured). That’s why for me Missandei saying “Dracarys” last episode wasn’t out of character for her.

    As Dany mentioned this episode (and Sansa mentioned last episode), even if she pretends she wants to liberate Westeros, she doesn’t consider Westerosi people “her people”. Unlike Essos there are no slaves in Westeros, so she sees the common folk not that differently from the rulers. Unlike Essos, where things were a lot more black and white, Westeros is a lot more gray, and that confusses her, and is why even when fighting side by side with the Northerners, she still saw them as “they” instead of “us”.
    The contrast between her and Jon was clearest last episode during Tormund’s drunken speech. Dany is someone who would quickly move to destroy her enemies regardless of if it was the smart choice or not, while Jon is someone that would risk his own life to save an enemy if it were for a greater good.

    Those tendencies to destroy her enemies without mercy have always been therem and the past two seasons, like a Jenga tower, she has been losing everything that had kept her grounded. She lost two dragons, she lost most of her allies and her closest advisors, and worse of all, she lost the one thing that was her guiding force, her right to the throne. Everything she thought she had was pulled from under her, everything that gave meaning to her life stumbled, and Emilia Clark really demonstrated that gradual breakdown over the past two seasons.

    That why I don’t agree with those that think the descent was rushed. I thought it made a lot of sense to see it happen. She was mad with grief, rage, a sense of lonliness, and feeling unloved, and eventually when things were about to end rather simply, like another comment said before, she simply reached her “fuck it” point and let her worst demons control her. In her mind she wasn’t burning innocents, she was burning a city of people that opposed her.

    Finally, in the grand scheme of things, I think that the series is a reflection of humanity. We fight and kill each other for power, for greed, for love, out of need, for revenge, you name it. Eventually a threat so big comes along and some, or perhaps a lot, leave their differences aside to combat that threat, while some are happy to sit out and device ways to personnally benefit from that threat. The sad thing is that when that threat is defeated, many quickly go back to their previous quarrels, forgetting the major accomplishments gained together, and not realizing that much more is possible by helping each other than by killing each other.

    Apologies for the long comment, but I feel that is why the show is so great. It really makes you think about a lot of things long after the credits roll.

  314. Nadia,

    Bran’s vision of the dragon over King’s Landing
    The HotU visions – the “snow” in the throne room was ash

    Anyone could tell you that a dragon would eventually fly over Kings Landing in this story. The snow was not ash though I wouldn’t be surprised if D&D pretend that it was like they pretended Melisandre’s line to Arya about closing “blue eyes” was about killing the Night King.

  315. I’m not going to talk about Jaime right now-because you know I just can’t.

    The Good:

    The music and the painful but stunning visuals. Definitely didn’t have a problem seeing all the carnage this time. (Or hearing the screams of children on Mother’s Day)

    Sandor “I already miss him” Clegane facing his brother as a dragon flew overhead was amazing. And telling Arya not to be like him. Maybe that will snap her out of this (what I initially thought might be a cool Stark plan but instead was just weird change of mind for her to suddenly leave Winterfell) and find her Gendry! Though she’ll probably want to add another name to her list first.

    Arya embracing her inner Nymeria, trying to get the people to safety. And that horse. Did Bran send that horse? Gandalf?

    Tyrion hugging his brother and crying.
    Which is Dany’s third betrayal for love? Jon staying loyal but telling his family who he was even though she didn’t want him to? Or Tyrion trying to save his family even though they were her enemies?

    The Bad:
    Timing. There were always signs Dany could go there and she lost SO much in the last few episodes, her pain is palpable. But it still felt almost too rushed to be believable. And she didn’t go to the red keep, where the person who hurt her actually was, she covered the entire city after they surrendered. Dany-who had gone too far in the past but never with anyone but slave masters and soldiers. Never with children. I thought she might be heading for Cersei and have accidental casualties, or even that Cersei would set another wildfire and try to blame her, but no. She aimed at everyone. On purpose. Why? Because they didn’t love her and greet her with cries of Myhsa? Serious shades of her brother there.

    And that dragon shadow. Bran knew it was going to happen the whole time. Wish he’d told Jon about it instead of discussing antique wheelchairs. Seriously, he is not as helpful as I was hoping he’d be.

    Cersei. Had like 3 lines the entire season. This actress who can give the most amazing speeches died still never leaving that Keep, with a roof falling down on her head. Being comforted after all she’d done. And apparently I was wrong and she was actually pregnant with the slowest growing baby in the world. Happy Mother’s Day again?

    Euron. Just ridiculous breaking the 4th wall for one last brag before he died.

    Yet another battle Jon did not really get to fight in, despite all his training. This is not his season.

    Finally-Sansa being right again. I know, that’s rude, but she’s also kind of the reason this happened. And you heard Dany blaming her for Varys dying? Jon will have to fight for her.
    (Unless Jon just leaves and Arya takes his face since he died already-kills Dany and spends her life ruling as Jon, which might be weird, especially if she changes her mind about dating Gendry lol-okay jk but at this point isn’t anything possible?)

    The Oh Sh**:
    Jon’s expression as he watched the carnage, watched his own men just get overexcited and start killing and raping people was painful and relatable. War, when its not with a supernatural embodiment of Death, is ugly in every way. He was keeping his promise, but he’s been fighting for the living, for a just cause, not for this. He’s not a bad guy. He’s not even a grey guy.
    There’s no victory for him anywhere. And R+L and claiming his true heritage may be spoiled now too. If the Mad King tainted the Targ name, Dany may have just decimated it for generations.
    I noticed the girl in the alley he saved-the scene reminded me of Sansa’s experience before the Hound saved her. Another sign Jon will have to save his family? Or die trying again?

    Poor Brienne. Poor Jon. Poor that mom and kid Arya tried to save. But thank the gods Davos is still alive and Varys got a few letters out.

    So many things unexplained or left unaddressed, but I get it, not enough time. It’s going by so fast now. Only one more episode to go. Is Bran going to have any words of wisdom at all?
    I think I need a drink.

    This was a hard one. Not gonna lie.

  316. Tony:
    I don’t care what anyone says, that was one of the greatest things I’ve ever witnessed.You can be confused and angry about what Dany did all you want but the fact is the seeds of that were planted for years.It’s tragic yes, but it was incredible.I feel sorry for anyone who couldn’t enjoy that.

    Dany did a version of what she’d been doing or wanting to do in Essos all along, except we’ve been cheering her on ‘cause she was doing it to “bad evil people” instead of the “good guys”. And make no mistake this must have come from George; D&D are fully aware of Dany’s popularity and that this would NOT be popular. So I guess Dany’s Third Fire prophecy (“Three Fires will you Light”) is the roasting of King’s Landing. And the Treason for Love (“Three Treasons will You know”) will be Jon in episode 6.

    Predictions: Jon kills Dany. Goes North and pets Ghost. Tyrion elected King by Great Council; power of Monarchy is significantly restricted. Years later Old Sam finishes A Song Of Ice and Fire: A Chronicle Of The Wars that followed the Death Of Robert Baratheon, First Of His Name. Next to the Winterfell Weirwood, Old Bran Wargs, and in his vision he sees Dragon Eggs in Valyria and a new Spiral pattern in the Deep North. The End.

  317. Apologies if this has been previously posted…

    Was the white horse upon which Arya rides at the end of this episode formerly owned by Harry Strickland?

    (Probably not important, but just an image of note.)

    Just me? I’m okay with that. (But, as for my part concerning “The Bells”, I am still… Not. Okay.)

  318. Having watched it nearly 3 times
    Now —
    I STILL WANNA BURN THEM ALL BUT UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES- I wonder if she does

  319. What even was the point of Jaime in the end in this show? His entire story in the books is about his slow painful halting movement away from Cercei. In the show they annihilated that until the very end of the last season, then finally let it happen, then almost immediately undid it. So what did he ever actually meaningfully do? If this is what happens in the books (I hope not, although I also don’t think the books will ever come out), I won’t like it, but it could be moving in that we would have seen him separating from her over such a long period of time but unable to carry it through in the end. Here, it just seems abrupt and hard to believe.

  320. Enharmony1625,

    Jon better be the one to do it. He needs to redeem himself somehow. Or rather, the author needs to redeem his character. I don’t wish to see him do it, and live with it afterwards, but I can’t think of anything else that will make his arc complete.

  321. The fault you can definitely find is Dany’s madness not seeming “earned”, that the troubling signs were maybe too few and far between. Certainly the book lends itself to that better with internal monologues.

    Even still, you see it in the show.

    Season 1, she burns alive (I’m not even gonna try and spell it because I’m drunk, but you know who I mean) and steps into the fire.

    Season 2, she promises her enemies will die screaming.

    Season 3, she roasts and/or crucifies anyone in a tokar.

    Season 4 & 5, she doesn’t do anything too unreasonable, but she has a terrible time in Meereen trying to suppress her dragonness and it’s only Drogon showing up and roasting her enemies that saves her.

    Season 6, she sets Vaes Dothrak on fire, walks again into the blaze and then finally takes control of Slaver’s Bay again when, hey, the dragons burn a whole fleet of ships.

    Season 7, she burns the Tarlys. After Olenna Tyrell tells her to embrace the dragon.

    We might not get as many internal monologues as in the books, but the show pretty clearly shows that she both wants to solve her problems with fire and blood, and fire and blood is the way she is actually able to solve them.

  322. LL of Darkwater:
    Apologies if this has been previously posted…

    Was the white horse upon which Arya rides at the end of this episode formerly owned by Harry Strickland?

    (Probably not important, but just an image of note.)

    Just me? I’m okay with that.(But, as for my part concerning “The Bells”, I am still… Not. Okay.)

    In my head Canon, Bran sent the Horse. LOL.

    And the Dragon Shadow? Meaning Bran has known what would happen since season one???
    Not cool, Bran, not cool at all.

    I think episodes 2, 4 and 5 are very good. 1 was meh and The Long Night’s problem is that to pay off the White Walker arc probably The Long Night should have been AT least 2-3 episodes long.

    I though Dany might go Mad Queen all along BUT they needed more than 2 episodes of setup for that (or at least do a montage of all of Dany’s ruthless moments in Essos just prior to the roasting?)
    In short, they should have stuck to 10 episode seasons all along…

  323. Tony,

    I’d agree they were attempting to plant these seeds for years, but I can’t agree that they were planted effectively. Ha, I know not everyone will agree with this, but my take is that we were worried that she would go mad primarily because other characters kept bringing it up. I’m trying to think of examples of behavior that were actually signs of madness in excess of what we saw elsewhere in the world of this show? I guess the worst of her in my mind was crucifying the masters, but honestly that was more of an eye for an eye situation. Any of her other actions were pretty similar to what multiple male characters did in the show, in terms of dispensing justice as they saw it, and only one of them was portrayed as nuts. Really though, her character has mostly been fair minded but decisive, and her weapons and strength were her dragons…..so she used her weapons. Tonight was the first action that was inexplicable, and it was on an incredibly grand scale. I wish they’d shown a stronger lead up to her actually being unstable vs just having characters bring it up. Tonight was intended to shock, and I think that in order to protect the impact of it they didn’t do enough to make these events a more believable reality for her. Like, by showing clearer signs that her behavior was truly unpredictable. Many folks seem to feel the Tarlys scene was a sign of her insanity, but in my mind it played out reasonably considering it was a depiction of warfare and how the folks in this world dispensed justice for grave offenses. If maybe there had been a last minute recant by either of the Tarly men, and she chose to ignore it and burn them anyway, then it would have been more if a “whoa wait” moment. But tonight I was just forced to say to myself, “Oh. Okay.”

  324. ygritte,

    I think it will be Jon. I said this in another thread but when somebody first brought up Nissa Nissa in regard to Dany and Jon, I thought of that scene with Buffy

    killing Angel

    and I think this is a big reason why, as people predicted, Jon will go back to the north-north, the ‘real’ North.

    It’s too bitter.

  325. ygritte,

    So you are blaming Daenerys’ actions on Tyrion, Jon, Vary and Sansa? You can’t control what others do, you can only control how you react to those things. Daenerys killed Varys and massacred the people in Kings Landing because they did not embrace her as their queen. No one, absolutely no one, forced her to go Dracarys on anyone.

  326. That was the greatest spectacle in TV history. I haven’t read the comments but I know how disappointed people are going to be in Jaime’s ruined character arc that we all imagined. Hopefully we get the books one day to see if it is at all similar. I was wrong about him, but the show was consistent in how he was portrayed. He never broke free from Cersei. It wasn’t the end I wanted for either character. But it didn’t ruin the overall story for me.

    What we all feared about the direction of Dany came to pass. I’m sorry to those who feel this isn’t consistent with her character or where she is headed in the books. But it’s clear now what the shock at the end was that GRRM told them about. Did they wait too long to show her start to crack? Probably. And that can be fairly criticized. The word ‘betrayal’ that Dany used brought me right back to the books and how often she wonders about the three betrayals, already bordering on paranoia. This decision probably ruined the series for a lot of people, but I respect the direction GRRM took the character and the story.

    Arya is the MVP of the series. She just is. I was more scared for her in this episode than I’ve ever been for any character while reading the books or watching the show. So I applaud D&D and Maisie for making me feel so strongly.

    Cleganebowl happened. And it ended as could have been expected. I know people don’t like the term ‘fan service’, but I use it to describe situations like this. I really feel like Sandor is never going to leave the Quiet Isle in the books. But I was thankful the show brought him back.

    With Dany alive and still having her nuke, things are still perilous for the Starks, of which I include Jon. They are the heart of this story for me and this episode only emboldened that feeling. I love Tyrion, but I loved Jaime too. I won’t weep if he dies. But the Starks? I’ll cry for days if any of them die. Well, maybe just hours for Sansa, but I’ll still cry.

  327. Driving home after tonight’s episode, my clearest thought: well, I guess this means we won’t see Septa Unella again, and she and the Mountain will never heal each other’s hearts.

    #Mounella RIP

  328. To all the haters:

    “I understand that if any more words come pouring out your c*nt keyboard, I’m gonna have to eat every f**king chicken in this room.”

    That may not exactly be the correct quote. 🙂

    The truly best part of this episode from a filming and techno kind of perspective, after my second viewing, was the cutting back and forth between the Clegane fight and Arya’s fight to leave town. I absolutely loved how Arya would get slammed and it would be an immediate cut to Sandor getting slammed and vice a versa. It was truly my favorite bit of editing I’ve seen in a while.

  329. LL of Darkwater,

    Was the white horse upon which Arya rides at the end of this episode formerly owned by Harry Strickland?

    just rewatched (fast forwarding lots) but yeah, I think it was strickland’s horse as welll At least he was good for something

  330. Jon Snowed,

    Yeah but even then, the biggest city and seat of power in Westeros is already decimated with hundreds of thousands innocents perished. Plus all you need is a faceless man assassin to do the deed. Doesn’t even have to be Jon. I get it now, Arya is the savior/hero in this story, and another main player is a hero turned villain, cool. I just wish Jon, who is also a main character, could have had a final chapter filled with some kind of big moment of his own. I guess it’s fair to say he already had his big moments in previous seasons and I’m just not used to that pattern of story telling lol.

  331. Watching a second time and remembered I was going to comment on how that guy Arya runs into during Sandor’s fight looked like Gendry. Probably not much to it but still noticeable.

    I still think they gave Cersei too honorable a death and final episode. I’m thinking that was D&D honoring Lena more than thinking about what viewers wanted to see. Yes, Daenerys was the focus of a character going ape shit, but I didn’t want a ‘feel sorry for Cersei’ wrap to what her story has been.

  332. George: In my head Canon, Bran sent the Horse. LOL.

    And the Dragon Shadow? Meaning Bran has known what would happen since season one???
    Not cool, Bran, not cool at all.

    I think episodes 2, 4 and 5 are very good. 1 was meh and The Long Night’s problem is that to pay off the White Walker arc probably The Long Night should have been AT least 2-3 episodes long.

    I though Dany might go Mad Queen all along BUT they needed more than 2 episodes of setup for that (or at least do a montage of all of Dany’s ruthless moments in Essos just prior to the roasting?)
    In short, they should have stuck to 10 episode seasons all along…

    All of this. Simple as that. A few more episodes could have perfected both the WW and Mad Dany story lines. Honestly both Jon and Dany’s characters deserved these endings to be fleshed out just a bit more after all these years of build up.
    Some people tonight think she chose fire and fear because her nephew wouldn’t sleep with her. That’s why more time exploring her descent could have been helpful. 🙂
    Let me clarify. Her actual descent, instead of everyone else talking about how crazy she probably was. Or Arya could have said something about WHY she didn’t trust her-since we know she’s good at reading people. Or Bran could have broken out with “She looked so beautiful when she was burning all those Khals. She was smiling.”

    I think I need to watch episode 2 again. For reasons. 🙂

  333. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    What we all feared about the direction of Dany came to pass. I’m sorry to those who feel this isn’t consistent with her character or where she is headed in the books. But it’s clear now what the shock at the end was that GRRM told them about. Did they wait too long to show her start to crack? Probably. And that can be fairly criticized. The word ‘betrayal’ that Dany used brought me right back to the books and how often she wonders about the three betrayals, already bordering on paranoia. This decision probably ruined the series for a lot of people, but I respect the direction GRRM took the character and the story.

    Yes, to me this, and probably Jon killing Dany because of it, is probably George “Third WTF” moment. I agree that this is consistent with the overall portrayal of Dany in the books and even the series, but they still needed more breathing room to make the transition stick fully, certainly longer than 2 episodes…

  334. fleasome,

    I definitely agree. Once again Sandor and Arya for the win. Amazing visuals. Did I mention I’m going to miss that guy?

  335. Though not what I wanted to see happen, I was riveted by this episode. It was horrible and suspenseful and incredible. I am sorry many felt this show is ruined. I believe tonight was a continuation of the theme of powerful people on the verge of victory, on the verge of realizing their destiny, and the lengths they will go to realize it and the weak and innocent people they end up destroying on the way, only to sow the seeds of their own destruction. Stannis burns Shireen and the troops leave him, Ramsey plays with the Starks and WunWun only to be defeated, Robb believes the rules don’t apply to him as to marriage and is too rigid with the Karstarks and is betrayed at the Red Wedding and so on. In Dany’s case, her actions after the bells rang make sense given that she was so devastated and angry and that she had just told Jon that she would rule by fear since she believed she would never be loved by the people of Westeros. Well, fear is now instilled, Kings Landing is destroyed, and all those innocents were murdered. But Jon Snow, who would have been the key to Dany’s acceptance as Queen, is a Stark in the image of Ned and cannot let this stand. Nor should he. Jon has exiled people before. Perhaps he will ask Dany to cross back over the Narrow Sea. A girl can hope.

  336. Pangumpy,

    Welcome (to posting)!

    Lots of us (myself included) are persnickety, obsessive-compulsive perfectionists who have difficulty letting go of the things we think could have been done better. But we still love the show and deeply appreciate all the incredible effort that thousands of people have put into it, so don’t let our criticisms put you off. 🙂

  337. George,

    The prophecy is “3 fires will you light”. Once for life (Dragons being born) once for death (I always assumed the Khals) & once for love. KL can’t be for love. So could the burning of the khals be for gaining the “love/loyalty” of the Dothraki & KL be for death?

  338. Just finishing a second watch, with Jaime and Cersei in the tunnels and notes of the Light of the Seven playing. And. the. ceiling. caves. in. The last notes played are The Rains of Castamere. Fitting. Perfect actually.

    Kind of chuckled at the small pops of green flame among the orange flames, where Dany must have hit caches of wildfire. Wildfire was nothing compared to an angry dragon.

    Someone far upthread said there was something magical about Arya’s survival and the beautiful white horse awaiting her, that more will become of this. Arya, wonderful Arya. Both character and actress are the Grand Alchemist, making gold of whatever comes their way to deal with.

    Didn’t need to see Sandor’s face crushed in, nor did I want him to land in flames. He deserved better.

    I’m appalled, I’m entranced, don’t know exactly what to say. The scenes were amazing, but watching Kings Landing fall to disaster quite so easily was a bit off-putting. So much to process. Seeing the pain and terror of all the citizens was gut wrenching. Processing proceeding.

  339. Also interesting: Dany expected Jon to betray her, but it was Varys. Jon stayed true to his word.

  340. ygritte:
    I used to LOVE Jon Snow. I don’t like him anymore. Jon let his Kween burn a man alive for trusting him with his feelings about Dany and willingness to support HIM the true heir. Tyrion, why? So worried for your own skin you had to betray your good friend from way back? You could have just said I refuse to discuss this any further at any time so you would not be a part of “treasonous” chatter but to turn him in? You knew he’s a goner after that. Tsk tsk. Jon also contributed to what happened by rejecting her advances once again. You do not reject your queen’s affection or there could be consequences, hello lol??? Also Sansa set the whole thing in motion to begin with. Part of what caused Dany to flip is when she realized the cat was out of the bag. So the innocent men, women and children of KL paid the price. Btw, Cercei doesn’t seem all that bad now does she? I legit felt a bit sorry for her at the end.

    Who would have ever thought little Arya Stark would become the hero of the story? I guess those “ANSWAP” (or whatever it is I haven’t paid too much attention lol) posters are psychic 🙂

    I don’t know – I feel the argument that “Jon should have slept with Dany to prevent all of this” is… tricky. Even just the way it sounds. He is not responsible for Dany’s choices – nor is Sansa, Varys, or Tyrion. It’s terribly hurtful and hard but it’s not an excuse for what Dany did. Dany’s grief was palpable, she felt she had lost everything – that was clear. And I am so sad, I’m so sad that the Mad Queen theory was right. I hate it.

    Likewise, Jon and Tyrion were clear with Varys. They weren’t going to be supporting Jon’s bid for the throne but Varys went ahead regardless. I’m sad about Varys’s death, I really wish he lived, I think he truly did have the realm’s best interests at heart but Tyrion and Jon made their positions clear to Varys at that time. Varys took the risk.

  341. Wolfish,

    The parting of Arya and Sandor felt truly emotive. One of the highlights of the episode for me, of which there were few. Did they really need to go there with the eye gouge? Ugh. Well, I don’t think it would have hurt to let the Hound live but whatever.

  342. Varys was actively trying to assassinate Dany. He got what he had coming.

  343. ygritte,
    Adrianacandle,

    Yeah, that’s a good point that Jon needs to do it, but it sure seems like they’re setting up Arya to do the deed. I can see Jon having misgivings about it and wanting to banish her or imprison her because she is his family, his Queen, and he loves(d) her. I dunno.. I can see it from both sides. Either one would be heartbreaking and dramatic for different reasons.

  344. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    I know how disappointed people are going to be in Jaime’s ruined character arc that we all imagined. Hopefully we get the books one day to see if it is at all similar. I was wrong about him, but the show was consistent in how he was portrayed. He never broke free from Cersei. It wasn’t the end I wanted for either character. But it didn’t ruin the overall story for me.

    Arya is the MVP of the series. She just is. I was more scared for her in this episode than I’ve ever been for any character while reading the books or watching the show. So I applaud D&D and Maisie for making me feel so strongly.

    With Dany alive and still having her nuke, things are still perilous for the Starks, of which I include Jon. They are the heart of this story for me and this episode only emboldened that feeling. I love Tyrion, but I loved Jaime too. I won’t weep if he dies. But the Starks? I’ll cry for days if any of them die. Well, maybe just hours for Sansa, but I’ll still cry.

    Agreed about the Starks and MVP Arya. Seriously tinfoiling now about Aria/Arya Song of Ice and Fire since she’s been in both battles-running and surviving and possibly killing the main antagonist in both-we’ll see.
    And this after years of believing that R+L=42 and Jon was the MVP 😉

    However, unlike you, I may never get over Jaime.

  345. Here’s my theory. Dany executes Tyrion. Arya tries to kill Dany and is killed. Jon then kills Dany. And Jon is killed.

    Melisandre said Arya would close many eyes. Brown eyes (the brown eyed dudes she killed), blue eyes (Night King), and green eyes.

    Dany has green eyes, non?

  346. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    Six out of seven ain’t bad. As I told Mr. Derp, I hope you had money on this. And a good bottle of Scotch to drink.

    Saner Half and I killed the Tully Singleton.

  347. fleasome,

    I loved that part… Amazing stuff, the two fighting, yet apart.

    I’m a bit tipsy at the moment (trying to make things more ‘okay’) but I think you are sharp eyed and your comment strikes many points, seriously rocks, kicks ash, is fired up, doesn’t fall down at any rate; it towers above and runs circles around anything I could write, at least until the dust clears my head.

    ( Too much wine. Way too much.)

  348. Lundy: You beat me to it. Yea, I thought it right away, the Pale Mare. One of the things Quaithe warned Dany about was the pale mare. In the books, anyway.

    In the books, the Pale Mare is a euphemism for the “bloody flux” (dysentery) epidemic that is ravaging both the population of Meereen and the city’s besiegers toward the end of ADwD.

  349. Oh Tumblr is LOOOSING it over this episode. I mean I get it… Dany has always been one of my favorite characters, and what went down hurt.

    BUT. It has been set up since season 1. The seeds were there.

    And some people really have forgotten what show they are watching. “If you were expecting a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention”.

    People have forgotten this. This is not a happy ending. It is a tragedy with happy elements. Bittersweet.

  350. Impressive. The horrors of war.

    RIP Jaime. Redemption wasn’t possible in the end.

  351. Solar,

    The interesting thing about Dany is that since the beggining she has always done the right thing more by chance than by choice.

    Nobody makes Dany do what she doesn’t want to though. Not chance and definitely not her advisors. That has been established in the show multiple times. She always listened and has multiple advisors with different takes on it. Looking at her war counsel versus Jon’s or Cersei’s was almost like watching professionals vs amateurs. And despite her temper, her threats and her impulses she succeeded in making a choice that wasn’t horrible almost every time. I reserve my right to be surprised at her going Hieroshima on KL after waiting for the damn bells of surrender. And she did wait.

    You may of course adopt the “fuck it theory” that gains traction here towards the end of the thread but I expected much more of her. So did Jon and Tyrion. I’m glad you and others could see it happening, some for years apparently. But I had faith in her and find that it wasn’t enough for me to believe a simple snap made her wipe out an entire city after proclaiming she doesn’t want to be Cersei or Queen of the Ashes. I don’t say it’s not possible, obviously it is since the show proved it. I am just disappointed in her. Much like i would be in any actual human being in which I placed faith and let me down.

    For the Northerners and how they are attracted to Jon. He’s Ned Stark’s son. Sure he’s a bastard but that’s besides the point as Lyanna said. And he’s been with the wildlings a long time. Fought for them and allowed them to pass through the Wall. I think they have a relationship that was built up for seasons . Dany has been in the North for a total of 2-3 eps. That’s a pretty big difference. Jon had it right. They didn’t know her and didn’t give her a chance. (Sansa basically undermined her from the get go and made sure Tyrion and Varys doubted her, one plotted against her.)

    Anyway, we will see the fall out next week. Super curious at her next small council meeting. Should be loads to talk about 🙊👀

  352. Sharon: Also interesting: Dany expected Jon to betray her, but it was Varys. Jon stayed true to his word.

    But she’s still saying Jon betrayed her. Doesn’t bode well for either Jon or Sansa.

  353. Sharon,

    In her mind Jon did betray her, and she said so to Tyrion, because Jon told Sansa.

    Jon never promised not to tell her sisters, but going against her wishes was enough for her to consider it a betrayal.

  354. Ice Hunter,

    I didn’t hate it. The Dany turn was done well this season. She lost the 2 people keeping her grounded, Jon can’t be with her, and she feels all alone. She’s tried to do the right thing, and it got her nowhere. She finally snapped.

  355. Enharmony1625,

    Oh, definitely. It’s going to be gutting. If I were less attached to these characters, I think I’d love it. But… I feel it too much now. And Jon and Dany have always been my faves. I don’t know if I can ever rewatch Game of Thrones knowing this is coming.

    I don’t mean that as bashing!! I’ve gotten way too attached. Way way way too attached.

  356. Bor Mullet,

    “Bittersweet” my arse! Is what I’d say to that ending.

    I don’t have any firm idea of how it ends. But it’s probably going to involve Jon and Arya killing Dany. Jon probably dies too now. There better not be no iron fucking throne in the end, though.

  357. Frances M Platt: In the books, the Pale Mare is a euphemism for the “bloody flux” (dysentery) epidemic that is ravaging both the population of Meereen and the city’s besiegers toward the end of ADwD.

    Yes, I know. But it wasn’t used in the show. The scene with Arya & the pale horse took me there and made me wonder if D&D are using the threat of the pale mare a different way.

  358. Solar,

    The way you explain it makes alot of sense. Thanks for that. Its sad thou, would have to agree that 10 episodes would have been better for the pacing issues, timing and budget could not have been an problem. Westworld takes a year off between seasons and cost alot to produce; and its no GOT.

    Its a good episode, hope Miguel & the rest of the team gets an emmy.

    I wonder how much Bran know would happened and why did he want Sam to tell Jon the truth so early.

  359. RIP Sandor!

    I’m still on a high from all the amazing ASNAWPedness of this episode, but it’s starting to sink in that our favourite chicken-loving, no-nonsense, tough-love surrogate father to his little Wolf Girl and Little Bird is gone. 🙁

    “Rory. Thank you.”

    RIP Jaime!

    My knee-jerk reaction is that I still would have wanted him to kill Cersei and for them to die together in that way to give him that last moment of heroism. Alas, he just could not shake off the pall that was Cersei. I guess this is GRRM saying that some people aren’t quite capable of redemption in the way we want. Jaime is still in my top 3 or 5 characters, and I find his arc fascinating, but I do wish it ended a little differently. NCW knocked it out of the park though! What a performance.

    RIP Cersei!

    For being so evil in the previous episode, I would have wanted a more epic death for her, but I suppose her dying knowing that her child will never be born is still pretty harsh. Lena’s performance over the course of the series has been amazing, but it’s unfortunate she didn’t have much to do in this season.

    Speaking of performances though, Emmy for Maisie please! My heart was pounding the whole time, and her sequences of helping commoners as she’s escaping had me gripped like nothing else. And the look on her face at the end at the burned bodies. Stunning!

  360. The Pale Rider

    That’s it! Clint Eastwood is going to kill Danny and take the throne!

  361. Nick,

    She threatened to kill all of the captured soldiers if they didn’t join her – not just the Tarlys. And right after a speech on how she was going to leave the world a better place than she found it.

  362. Thronetender: But she’s still saying Jon betrayed her. Doesn’t bode well for either Jon or Sansa.

    Exactly. And she went the long way round to do it too. “Varys knew because you told him, you knew because Sansa told you and that means Jon told Sansa so I was right the first time.”

    PS how the heck has Tyrion been getting away with this? Varys is burned and Jon and Sansa are blamed, plus she arrested Jaime…but she’s still taking advice from Tyrion. Or she said she would but then did her own thing anyway.
    That kind of luck can’t last.

  363. Nick,

    I know that people have different takes on things but I knew that is how Daenerys would end. For one, her father was insane and evil and then Viserys was heading in the same direction. She tried to fight it but I think she always feared she was heading that way too.

    Daenerys is entitled as fck, more so than Stannis and that is saying a lot. She has no qualms about killing those who do not bend to her. She is self righteous in that she has a rigid vision of how the world should be, in her eyes, she is the good one, the liberator, the one who knows what’s best for everyone else. She bought her own delusion.

    But aside from that, you gotta wonder about:

    -A sister that allows her husband to murder her own brother in that fashion and her only reaction was to write it off because “he was not a dragon.” I know what Viserys was but he was still her brother. He was not always a monster to her. The Lannisters may be all types of fcked up, there’s more bad blood between them that there ever was between Viserys and Daenerys, and look how they are unable to kill each other.

    -She locked two people in a vault knowing that they would starved to death. I understand she was avenging a betrayal but you gotta be a special kind of cold blooded person to do that.

    -She crucified more than 100 people without ever bothering to find out their guilt or innocence. And she knew it was the wrong thing to do.

    -Her burning of the Khals – she could have escaped otherwise. She chose violence there too, all so that she could conquer more people and have more bow to her.

    Daenerys always told us who she was, what she was capable of, some tried to explain or justify things, some others agree with her actions because they were caught up in her delusion as well. But she losing whatever thread was holding her together can’t be much of a surprise. There’s only a thin thread between sanity and insanity, her scale was tipped before she was born and then she lost so much in such little time, she gave in, became what she always terrified she would become. She flirted with the idea of going fire and blood so many times, always to be reined in by others or even by her own choice but then came a point when she no longer care. She threw herself from a precipice.

  364. Aegon the IceDragon,

    Ok I thought I was imagining it but I watched again and then I saw your comment and thought I’m definitely not.

    I think Varys was trying to poison Dany. Because that girl was telling him Dany is not eating and he told her to keep trying and to go to the kitchens so she won’t be missed. Also the greater the risk the greater the reward. What the actual fuck?! I mean I wonder if Dany or the Unsullied who watched the girl eventually figured it out. That the girls was poisoning or trying to poison Dany’s food.

    Can anyone confirm I’m not imagining this stuff?! Because it may not have been just the treasonous notes he was sending…

  365. Enharmony1625:

    “Rory. Thank you.”

    Sobbing. He was my favorite grumpy uncle with some of my all time favorite lines. And his smile was worth waiting for.

  366. Why did Davos do that favor for Tyrion? He’s Jon’s advisor so at worst he was getting a boat for Jaime and Cersei to flee if Tyrion told him the truth. That’s treason. And even if Tyrion lied to him for who the boat was for he was still getting it for someone to flee. He even said he wasn’t going to like this favor so he knew it wasn’t good.

  367. Adrianacandle,

    Oh me too. Waaaay too attached. I was feeling anxious all day, and I could feel my heart pounding throughout the episode! I know I go on and on about Arya, but I honestly love all the characters in this story, so it doesn’t make it much easier to know what’s coming for Dany.. Her story really seems to be one of tragedy, but we’ll see if she has some last minute reprieve, perhaps massive regret or something, before Arya and/or Jon put an end to her.

  368. TormundsWoman:
    Aegon the IceDragon,

    Ok I thought I was imagining it but I watched again and then I saw your comment and thought I’m definitely not.

    I think Varys was trying to poison Dany. Because that girl was telling him Dany is not eating and he told her to keep trying and to go to the kitchens so she won’t be missed. Also the greater the risk the greater the reward. What the actual fuck?! I mean I wonder if Dany or the Unsullied who watched the girl eventually figured it out. That the girls was poisoning or trying to poison Dany’s food.

    Can anyone confirm I’m not imagining this stuff?! Because it may not have been just the treasonous notes he was sending…

    I think your assessment is spot on. I watched it twice and totally believe the little girl was trying to poison her food and was tasked to keep trying, or try again tonight.

  369. TormundsWoman,

    Yes, he was trying to poison her. He had insinuated as much to Tyrion in episode 4.

    Had he succeeded he would have saved a lot of people.

  370. Aegon the IceDragon,

    Varys was true to who he was. He told Daenerys that he didn’t serve any King or Queen, he served the realm and he was always going to do what he thought best for the realm. When he found out about Jon, he finally found the person who he was always searching for: in his eyes, the right type of King. Someone who would rule justly. He wanted to be wrong about Dany, he wasn’t.

  371. Enharmony1625,

    Exactly!! The amount of melba toast I had today to offset any anxiety-induced vomiting… two boxes!! T___T And it’s going to be the same next Sunday!

    I knew I’d be sad but…oh lord.

  372. Aegon the IceDragon:
    Varys was actively trying to assassinate Dany.He got what he had coming.

    Maybe. But he was right all along. He saw the mad Targaryen way before anyone else. Maybe Sansa did as well. She had better watch her back.

  373. Danny,

    I always knew it was possible, but I never thought GRRM would fully go there. But there are numerous warning signs throughout the series. Somebody needs to make a super cut of all of the scenes that could show that this was a possibility for her.

  374. TormundsWoman,

    “Nobody makes Dany do what she doesn’t want to though.”

    I agree, but the point is that her first instincts have usually been on the destroyer side, she just tempered them by listening to others. The problem is that she lost the two persons she trusted the most, and the rest she no longer trusts, so she went with her instincts.

    As for my chance comment, I meant it in the grand scheme of things. Dany did a lot of good on Essos but largely because she was put in the situation. When her journey started she didn’t set out to free the slaves in Essos or free anyone in Westeros. She simply wanted to rule, that was it. That was her driving force. The circumstances put her in a position where by freeing slaves she was helping herself and I do believe that she freed them because she wanted to do so, but as she mentioned to Daario when he encouraged her to stay and rule in Essos (where the common folk she helped actually loved her), she refused because her goal has nevermain goal has never been to end tyranny or break the wheel (those came about later).

    That is why I said that to me a lot of the good she did was by chance. Had she had been able to go to Westeros as soon as Kalh Drogo promised her the throne she would have without wasting a second to think about the slaves in Essos. She was forced to stay there and eventually she took up the mantel of breaker of chains because she had to in order to get her main goal, but not because she had an inherent drive to do the right thing.

    To me that is the contrast with Jon, who has always been shown as someone who is guided by a desire to do the right thing for the greater good.

    In the end I still feel disappointed like you that she took that decision because she has shown that if she wants to she can do a lot of good, but it was not surprising because for her (like for a lot of people) doing the right thing is easy when it aligns with your objective, but not so much when it doesn’t. And Dany had always shown that sitting on the IT comes ahead of anything else.

  375. TormundsWoman:
    Aegon the IceDragon,

    Ok I thought I was imagining it but I watched again and then I saw your comment and thought I’m definitely not.

    I think Varys was trying to poison Dany. Because that girl was telling him Dany is not eating and he told her to keep trying and to go to the kitchens so she won’t be missed. Also the greater the risk the greater the reward. What the actual fuck?! I mean I wonder if Dany or the Unsullied who watched the girl eventually figured it out. That the girls was poisoning or trying to poison Dany’s food.

    Can anyone confirm I’m not imagining this stuff?! Because it may not have been just the treasonous notes he was sending…

    I remember the scene as you describe it. Earlier I was listening to the Alt Shift X live stream and they discussed that possibility as well. Admittedly, poisoning didn’t jump into my head when I saw the scene but then what could the “great risks, great rewards” be about? In other words, it fits and makes sense.

  376. kathy,

    Maybe Arya will realize that now that her list is finished and Sandor has convinced her you can’t live your life looking for revenge she’ll travel to Storm’s End and take Gendry up on his offer.

  377. weirwoodtreehugger,

    I’m with you. As much as I’ve been disappointed by the writing, logic lapses, and frenetic pace of the last two seasons, I agree with you on these points.

    I wish we’d had 10-episode seasons for 7 and 8 to let the story and characters breathe. Dany’s descent into Mad Queen should have taken an episode or two; this was far too jarring. And there are a couple of characters’ endings that I’m still trying to digest, both logically and emotionally. Having said all that… I thought that on its own, this episode was stellar. Heartbreaking and horrifying, but stellar.

  378. Was Varys adept with poison? I can’t recall. I know he had a distrust of magic. Or maybe he got some of that “eternal kiss” or what ever it was Ellaria used on Marcella when he was visiting Dorne. Or one of the other poisons they used. All I can guess is it probably wasn’t Milk of the Poppy.

  379. fleasome:
    And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him.

    Anyone else think that at the end with Arya?

    I did. But usually in stories white horses are for heroes and black for villains. She and Sandor rode south on black steeds. And after all her efforts to survive and help others survive, she’s ‘presented’ with a white horse. Perhaps it’s due to the gods seeming to favour her. There was something magical about it.

    Wolfish,

    Now that you mention it, I recall you saying it. I miss ACME– a great theorist who always gave us food for thought.

  380. Danny,

    Dany could have escaped the Khals? Literally HOW? They were going to rape and defile her if she didn’t opt for violence. That particular instance was very justified.

  381. D&D obviously have other things they’d rather move on to. The story has had a destination but obviously not enough time to get there without quick instantaneous plot magic.

    Whoops, Jaime escapes without notice. Scorpion fire; figured that out over one episode. The big bad wolf couldn’t blow down a house of brick, but a dragon apparently can take out most city masonry.

    Like the NK, character story arcs are coming to a end in a quick but unsavory fashion. But we, of course, would prefer more episodes to digest the point (rational or not) .

    Major plot points, get one episode and it happened and don’t ask for more.

    To quote the great Wonka, “Everybody has had one and one is enough for anybody”

    Enjoyed the episode, but endings however justified, leave you empty inside.

  382. I really liked the episode, how it was filmed, and how it calls back to Daenerys and Jorah discussing about how to take King’s Landing (in early S3). The Unsullied developed emotions over the years, and also made a massacre in KL (ok, they followed Daenerys, but Grey Worm seemed to enjoy his revenge). The only very minor (plot) point for me is that the Scorpions were suddenly useless after being so effective, but at least Daenerys flew in from the back and Drogon got used to being aimed at. I also found the end of Jaime and Cersei fitting. And Sandor sending Arya back to humanity.

    I wonder if more soldiers of the Northern troops got out alive than the Unsullied/Dothraki because they pulled back. But then there’s Drogon still to submit to realm.

    If Daenerys is really going to be Queen of the Ashes, they could wrap the next episode up in 10 minutes. She has certainly made sure no one can sit on the Iron Throne after her, if they find it.

    Varys telling Jon that the gods flip a coin, him seeing Varys burn, realizing that KL had as many people of the North (compensating for the lives that Daenerys saved). And if she prefers his fear over his love, he will choose duty. Jon knows now why Arya and Sansa don’t trust her. We shouldn’t get a second Rickard and Brandon.

    Will Daenerys execute Tyrion for releasing Jaime? (or was the catch & release only for their goodbye scene?) There is no proof that Cersei died, and Jaime’s missing. I also expect her to hold a council afterwards and demand oaths of submission from her vassal Lords. Will she then want to punish Sansa for scheming? If yes, Jon and Arya will not stand aside. Maybe Jon volunteers to be punished instead of Sansa, if he can’t choose. Could it be that Drogon refuses to burn Jon? It’s not bittersweet anymore when the two main characters die and fall.

    Maybe the YMBQ/Valonqar was about Sansa/Arya with respect to Daenerys.

  383. Onedon,

    Thanks for the kind comments. I do wish these past two seasons had been full 10 episodes each but I also understand the restrictions regarding budgets and people (both producers and actors) wanting to move on to other things. It’s not like they shot for less time this past two seasons. They still had very long production times, but in the same amount of time they were filming ten episodes now they got less due to the complexity and scale of the scenes.

    I wonder how much Bran know would happened and why did he want Sam to tell Jon the truth so early.

    I think Bran seems to keep a lot to himself (assuming he has seen enough about the future) because of Hodor. There he saw first hand how his powers changed (presumably for the worse) someone’s life from what could have been. Ever since then he seems to only say enough to keep things happening as they are supposed to happen out of fear that his interference would end up messing things.

  384. Tyrion Pimpslap,

    And now the viewers (or at least, the early Daenerys fans like me) are in the same position as Jon and Tyrion… Well done to the writer and showrunners.

  385. Enharmony1625: Adrianacandle,
    Oh me too. Waaaay too attached. I was feeling anxious all day,

    Me too. The characters, the actors, what a ride it’s been.

  386. fleasome,

    That wasn’t my first thought, but now that you mention it, I can certainly see it.

    My first thought when I saw the closeup of Arya’s face (before the horse) was, “Damn, that’s really Japanese.” And when the shot was expanded to include the city and the horse, and the only colors were red and many shades of grey, I thought, “Damn, someone watched some Kurosawa before shooting this.”

  387. Dany didn’t go mad, so there was no need to show her going mad. She did what she did because she realized Westeros would never embrace her, especially after Jon’s parentage was revealed. And then Varys plotted to have her killed. She therefore consciously decided on a show of brutality, as she came to believe that fear was going to be the only way to begin her rule. Was Truman ‘mad’ when he dropped the atom bomb on two Japanese cities? No. That’s what this show gets so right: showing that otherwise good people can do horrible things. Sometimes in service of a greater good, as Dany says herself when taking about “mercy for future generations.” I mean, as a progressive, I think Sherman’s march to the sea was an essential campaign in the struggle to defeat the Confederacy. But Sherman’s army killed many civilians and burned down many homes. Was he an evil man, and was the ultimate objective evil? No. The US defeated slavery in part because of that brutal campaign. But evil things are often done in the name of good causes. Napoleon killed hundreds of thousands, both noble and common, in his effort to end the monarchies of Europe and promote Republicanism. Nearly every nation state today owes a debt of gratitude to him. But he was also a mass murderer.

    History is complicated. And no matter what happens, 300 years from now in Westeros, Dany might be hailed as the bringer of a new order of humanity. The carnage and slaughter softened and even made to disappear by the limited memories and lived of humankind.

  388. Ten Bears,

    Dude, that’s not minor. Saner Half, the friend with whom we watched and I all gasped. That was major, and it was beautiful.

  389. PatD,

    I thought the same thing, but Saner Half and the friend with whom we watched said the little girl Arya was trying to save was carrying a toy and that’s what we see. Echoes of Shireen, and how Davos found out…

  390. Bor Mullet,

    > Napoleon killed hundreds of thousands, both noble and common, in his effort to end the monarchies of Europe and promote Republicanism.

    I suppose you mean his effort to promote himself and to establish his family members as European monarchs…

    As to Truman and the A-bomb, I think he wanted a quick capitulation and spare lives of the US-American soldiers. It was horrible, but maybe more people were saved by dropping them. Maybe there were other options too, that avoided both evils, I don’t know.

    I more or less agree about Truman, I don’t really agree about Napoleon. Yes, he drafted a more modern law book, but that would have come without him as well. Without him invading Russia, he would have consolidated a French empire with vassal states.

    Hmm, maybe Daenerys will now decide to liberate the free cities of Essos.

  391. So many on this thread are saying the signs were there etc. and taking for granted what we just saw in this episode but where were ya’ll when DB and a few others kept calling those of us out who were speculating back in I believe season 3 that Dany would probably end up a mad queen. I don’t remember anyone having someone’s back when they were made to feel like an idiot or labeled a “hater” for what’s ended up as rightly sussing out a future plot turn. This is why it’s important to let people have the freedom to speculate on fiction all they want without getting defensive and lashing out at them. I was even called a “Jon fan girl” (in a thread regarding not Jon but Dany) as a way to dismiss my thoughts out of hand.

  392. Well!

    Jaime – I enjoyed his arc as one of the most fascinating characters I have seen in fiction. He was wonderfully played by NCW. He had an identity arc and unusual redemption arc and a romantic arc. He also had a great deal of duality. He had a clear arc – I think he made better choices over the series including fighting the dead etc. I suppose the baby ensured he returned to KL and realization of Brienne’s fears. I will think further about the lessons from his story but it seems to be – we cannot start afresh, we are tied by past choices, family and fate. (This is not a very life-affirming message but it may be true.)

    I hope NCW gets an award for a great job. He must have loved acting these scenes as he was the most upbeat of the actors at the end. Either that of he glad to be done with Belfast and GOT.

    Cersei – I think she got off very easily for the havoc she caused. She was again the vulnerable woman we met years ago. Vulnerable and needing Jaime’s protection. Too good for her, methinks. GRRM and D&D gave her an ending as a sympathetic person, geez. They really liked her. At the end, Jaime seemed compassionate and brotherly to her rather than romantic, however. He did the right thing to help her.

    Daenerys – She is as she always was. And a risk to others with those weapons of destruction and a volatile temperament. Do you still all think she will be a great queen?

    Jon – Passive. I cannot tell what become of him but he needs to help clear this up. I really wonder what kind of king he could possibly make.

    Brienne – Noble Brienne. I hope that GRRM and D&D do not leave her pregnant by Jaime. I glad that she and Jaime did explore whatever they shared. I hope she does not feel she was inadequate in any way. She is an unconventional female with no confidence in her interaction with men. I hope she finds purpose beyond working away for Sansa. (Sansa’s future looks good!) It is never useful when good women (particularly those with unconventional looks) end up playing second fiddle to women considered better than they. D&D will give her a good job to as non-traditional females must focus on work, right guys?. Go to Tarth, Brienne.

    Arya – she looks like she is the outstanding character of the series. Good job!

    Bran – is he done? He has not been helpful. Could not he say something about Daenerys burning everything down? I suppose it had to happen.

    Tyrion – smart enough to be King. But I suppose Daenerys will roast him soon. Cersei’s baby was important to both Tyrion and Jaime. I wonder how he goes on from here. Sansa was right about both Cersei and Daenerys – so perhaps she is smarter than Tyrion.

  393. ash,

    Funny, I never thought she had lots of plot armor. I thought she had a lot of common sense, a great memory of the geography of King’s Landing, and the speed of the young. Plot armor was what happened in Braavos.

  394. Mango,

    It’s interesting how in many ways, Sansa really is shaping up to be the true “winner” of the game–if anyone can truly be considered a winner in all of this, of course.

  395. Ten Bears: Reply

    Che. Great point. TB/ I hope you’re being sarcastic.

    Man. I think I am going to have to sleep on all this. This was bonkers.

  396. ygritte,

    Well, you didn’t underestimate GRRM like I did 😉 The signs were there, but they didn’t make it too obvious either. Maybe the development this season was a bit quicker, but I still find it very acceptable, and I think Daenerys still isn’t mad (completely, yet), and I hope they stay away from this, to make Jon and Tyrion’s choice harder, and also to keep Daenerys more humane in case she would die (she has already fallen). If Cersei hadn’t gone her “all or nothing” strategy, if Jorah, Missandei, Rhaegal and Viserion hadn’t died, if Sansa had been less suspicious, and Jon had been less hesitant towards loving his aunt, it might not have happened, but it is Daenerys her choice and responsability to burn King’s Landing. She did destroy the ugly chair though.

  397. ygritte:
    I used to LOVE Jon Snow. I don’t like him anymore. Jon let his Kween burn a man alive for trusting him with his feelings about Dany and willingness to support HIM the true heir. Tyrion, why? So worried for your own skin you had to betray your good friend from way back? You could have just said I refuse to discuss this any further at any time so you would not be a part of “treasonous” chatter but to turn him in? You knew he’s a goner after that. Tsk tsk. Jon also contributed to what happened by rejecting her advances once again. You do not reject your queen’s affection or there could be consequences, hello lol??? Also Sansa set the whole thing in motion to begin with. Part of what caused Dany to flip is when she realized the cat was out of the bag. So the innocent men, women and children of KL paid the price. Btw, Cercei doesn’t seem all that bad now does she? I legit felt a bit sorry for her at the end.

    Who would have ever thought little Arya Stark would become the hero of the story? I guess those “ANSWAP” (or whatever it is I haven’t paid too much attention lol) posters are psychic 🙂

    I agree about Jon. He certainly hasn’t been very supportive of Daenerys through all of this. We have not seen him comforting or counselling her in an effective way, like Jorah used to do. Jon does not show her any love (not saying they need to have sex), but he does need to comfort her and show his support to the woman he loves. He also needs to voice his concerns and demonstrate some backbone for once, as he is too meek around her IMO. Daenerys needs a strong man; again, I’m thinking of Jorah and how he was patient, loving, supportive, and was not afraid to voice his opinions. Without loving support and guidance from Jon, the man she loves, Daenerys feels more and more betrayed and isolated.

    I also think it was disappointing that Tyrion ultimately betrayed Varys. You said, “Sansa set the whole thing in motion to begin with.” And although she is definitely not trustworthy, it was Jon who actually set everything in motion. He should have kept his secret to himself, as Ned did. Jon is the main person to blame here; Daenerys is right about that.

    Regarding Cersei, I found it interesting that the roles reversed in this episode, with Cersei as the victim and Daenerys as the tyrant. I think that Cersei pretty much won after all. Her plan was for the people of Westeros to not accept Daenerys as their queen, and it looks like she was successful, unfortunately.

  398. Wolfish,

    Kudos, you were right!
    I was so happy to see Arya trying to save people. That is, I was as happy I could be after the Hound’s death and Jaime denying his evolution.

  399. Clob,

    I wasn’t remotely surprised by Cersei’s ending. Yes, a huge percentage of people wanted to see her get what she “deserved,” a gruesome and terrible public death. But that’s not the way it usually goes down, is it? Hitler died quickly in his bunker with the woman he loved.

    The fact that so many people wanted the eye-for-an-eye says a whole lot about us, and how far we have to go as a species.

  400. ygritte,

    Jon Snow has never been my favourite, but I respect him and wish he could have been happy. Imo he did nothing wrong. He’s just himself, the man who values honour and honesty no matter what.

  401. JSchmeh: Of course it doesn’t make sense. She went insane. Insanity makes no sense.

    True! I was reacting in the aftermath of having been well and truly shocked.
    Having had about four hours sleep as it airs in the middle of the night here, I have to say that is one hell of a story and brilliantly done. My heart truly breaks for Jon.
    I had my heart in my mouth for Ayra. Cleganebowl was awesome, I know people say it’s fan service, but that was one mega Cleganebowl.
    I had no sympathy whatsoever for Cersei, only Jaime and Tyrion.
    Sadly now, someone has to take her down and it has to be Jon, poor bastard.

  402. weirwoodtreehugger:

    Did people just tell themselves that somehow there would be violence, but it wouldn’t be upsetting and visceral?Or that all the bloodshed and horror of the story so far would lead us to a better future?Really, I don’t get it.What’s the beef?

    Is anyone else with me here?I thought it was a horrific punch to the gut and despite many of my theories being shot to shit, I loved it.I don’t mind being wrong!I can’t be the only who doesn’t get all pissy because things don’t happen in the exact way I thought they would?

    Totally. It was horrific, a punch to the gut, but very GOTs!
    My theories are batting 1.5/10 for this season! But I had fun conjecturing and watching theories spelled out on Youtube too.

  403. Pangumpy,

    Welcome! Hope you continue posting. There always a lot of debate here but you’ll find people are reasoned and polite unlike many forums. Hope you are still in one piece after this episode 🙂

  404. Colin Dougherty:
    A very dignified death for Cersei; chaperoned by the one person in her life who loved her, who risked everything to display decency and compassion to her.

    Arya.The kindest thing was said to her by the Hound which allowed her to survive.The looks on the Arya’s face as she made her way through to the white horse were some of the most haunting war trauma images I’ve ever seen on film.

    The Hound.A beautiful, brave leap into the fire to put an end to the evil which possessed his brother, the Mountain, from the beginning but was turned into an undying, monstrous force by Qyburn – who (fittingly) is casually killed by the Mountain immediately when a strategic disagreement arises.

    Varys.A very dignified execution by Drogon.Wise words exchanged with Tryion who admitted that it was he who turned Varys in for treason.The expression of honorable intentions to the last from Varys.

    Harry Strickland.The Golden Company proved to be complete amateurs when confronted with what was left of the Dothraki, the Unsullied and the northern armies.
    Harry Strickland crawled away in retreat at the end on his knees only to be cut down.

    Dany & Drogon. Masterful tactics employed by Dany & Drogon to avoid scorpion bolts with oblique low angle attack runs.The Iron Fleet was the first to be destroyed. Then the scorpion bolt launchers on the battlements fell prey to the same tactics.A through pounding.Then the bells set off Dany even though she’d agreed to hold mass destruction on signal.All her pain and rage of what she and her comrades had endured consumed her.A terrible sight to behold as Dany gave into her worst instincts and forgot her mission in life to preserve the lives of innocents and free them from their shackles.

    Jon Snow & the Crowd.Jon Snow and the crowd are devastated by the slaughter being perpetrated by Dany’s army. Shot more briskly than Arya’s more painful, haunting scenes.

    Jon Snow & Dany.Jon Snow swears fealty to Dany as his Queen.She comes near him and kisses him romantically, asking Jon whether his feelings are just about loyalty to the Queen or whether there is something else (i.e. his romantic passion for her).He doesn’t say.He is worried about the possibility of wide scale slaughter of innocents.

    Dany’s Gotta a Bad Publicity Problem.Jon and a whole lotta people are upset by the slaughter. Her fitness to rule is undeniably open to question.

    Trailer for Final Episode.Ends with a scene of Sansa (fully in control) regally approaching and marching through the ranks of what appears to be an army and/or assemblage of assorted high born fancy lads and ladies.

    Wishing and Hoping – Jon and Dany.Jon and Dany move to the far north and Dany leaves her regal ambitions behind in order to have a life together with Jon.They can move in next door to the Wildings and engage with them in endearing situation comedy moments.Hilarity will ensue.

    Wishing and Hoping – Sansa, Tryion, Brienne, Ser Davos.Sansa makes a good Queen and makes a suitable match with a new Dornish prince that is nice, considerate, clever, useful and believes in the Montessori Method.Tryion is Hand. Ser Davos is Master of Coin and puts the Kingdom into the black. Brienne is appointed Leader of the Kings Guard and substitutes her unrequited love with duty and honor.

    Wishing and Hoping – Arya.She shows up at Storms Landing and tells Gendry that she is who she is and won’t ever change, but if that is ok with him she wants to have tons of babies with him.

    Wishing and Hoping – Greyworm.He returns to Naath to live out his days in honor of Missandri’s virtues.

    Wishing and Hoping – Hot Pie.He establishes the first chain restaurant in Westeros.

    Wishing and Hoping – Sam and Gilly.He becomes a maester through a correspondence course and establishes the first health care facility at Castle Black open to all Wildings who have moved back north of the Wall and those left living sourt of the Wall.Tons of children.Gilly opens a Hot Pie franchise and has an affair with a sympathetic, bumbling, lonely Hot Pie, but Sam and Gilly patch it up.No hard feelings.

    Wishing and Hoping – Bran.Because he knows everything that’s ever happened, is happening and will happen, and actually cares about people he inspires a large majority to return to the worship of the Old Gods learnedfrom the Children of the Forest.He initiates folk singing at services and establishes regular inter-faith services.

    Wishing and Hoping – Bronn: He accepts a small, stylish castle with a pretty wife who bosses him around artfully, but is somehow able to communicate with him and bring out his better qualities.He becomes a Dad and does a fair job at it.Names his first two sons: Jaime and Tryion.Never kills anybody again or even feels like it.

    Wishing and Hoping – Pod.He gets knighted by Sansa or Brienne, becomes a lord and does a good job at being a family man and manager of his estates.

    Wishing and Hoping – Iron Bank.They make a strategic corporate move to switch to small business and consumer financing and usher in a new wave of prosperity in both Essos and Westeros.

    Wishing and Hoping – Faceless Men.Realizing that their religion is fraught with inherent, internal contradictions and that little shits like the Waif only pretend to be selflessly serving the faith, they stop being Murder, Inc. and open a chain of spas focusing on meditation, yoga, hot oil massage, chanting, nature walks, 19th Century English Romantic poetry, and vegan cookery.

    Wishing and Hoping – Wildings.They become conservators of the land north of the Wall and establish a tourist industry that allows Westeros to explore and see the North as it was meant to be seen. Saunas.Bathing in warm, geyser fed lakes.All fresh, locally sourced food.Tormund becomes the leader of the industry and undertakes regular speaking engagements in the South to promote the industry.

    Wishing and Hoping – Yara and the Ironborn. They establish the first merchant marine offering container shipping and a cruise ship line famous for its lack of e. coli outbreaks.Yara becomes a symbol for lesbians and trauma recovery.

    Wishing and Hoping.Unsullied.They invest heavily in the chain of spas established by the Faceless Men and each of them become wealthy, really cool, and relaxed.

    Wishing and Hoping.Dothraki. They give up raiding and make a future for themselves in establishing a modern insurance industry, which though focused initially on personal lines cart insurance, branches out quickly to begin offering multi-line commercial coverage supported by state of the art risk management services.

    Wishing and Hoping.Ghost.He gets reunited with Jon and Dany, grows comfortably old, farts surreptitiously by the fire on cold nights, and pretends Jon did it.

    After the trauma that was this episode, I really needed this, a chuckle. Thank you. 😀

    Except there’s no way to come back for Dany. It’s so sad and tragic.

  405. Enharmony1625:
    RIP Sandor!

    I’m still on a high from all the amazing ASNAWPedness of this episode, but it’s starting to sink in that our favourite chicken-loving, no-nonsense, tough-love surrogate father to his little Wolf Girl and Little Bird is gone. 🙁

    “Rory. Thank you.”

    RIP Jaime!

    My knee-jerk reaction is that I still would have wanted him to kill Cersei and for them to die together in that way to give him that last moment of heroism. Alas, he just could not shake off the pall that was Cersei. I guess this is GRRM saying that some people aren’t quite capable of redemption in the way we want. Jaime is still in my top 3 or 5 characters, and I find his arc fascinating, but I do wish it ended a little differently. NCW knocked it out of the park though! What a performance.

    I fully agree with you.
    I expected Jaime to die, but not this way. His death may be honourable in his mind, but when I remember what “dying in the arms of the woman I love” could have meant… I’d rather he hadn’t managed to get into KL so that Cersei might die alone, as she deserves.
    But I’m glad the Hound killed the Mountain and had said good-bye to Arya as true friends do.

  406. Colin Dougherty,

    heh, these are great ideas!

    Wolfish,

    Wow I have trouble finding my old posts I wrote a few hours before let along years! Good on you 🙂

    oh speaking of blowing ones horn (and you werent 🙂 ) Euron became a cartoon charater talking to the audience ‘ha I killed Jaime Lannister’. just shut up and die you demented perso

  407. Thronetender,

    Kind of chuckled at the small pops of green flame among the orange flames, where Dany must have hit caches of wildfire. Wildfire was nothing compared to an angry dragon.

    Yeah, saw this, and thought everything would be gone in one huge blast. But maybe wild fire doesn’t mix with dragon fire?

  408. JohnnyLaw,

    The pony (actually a horse) Arya got after that inn fight in S4 was white. Or grey/white. So this ep wasn’t the first time Arya is riding a white/grey horse.

    Jaime has always had a white horse, as a mockery of the “shining knight on a white charger” cliche, until he rode North on a dark horse at the end of S7.

    Now Arya rode from basically hell on a pale horse. We westerners, nominally Christians, get the reference.

  409. bsc,

    I am indeed hoping for this as well, tho I am not sure she’d ultimately be satisfied

    BTW does this mean Bronn doesn’t get his castle and/or wife?

  410. Wolfish,

    I wish we’d had 10-episode seasons for 7 and 8 to let the story and characters breathe. Dany’s descent into Mad Queen should have taken an episode or two; this was far too jarring. And there are a couple of characters’ endings that I’m still trying to digest, both logically and emotionally. Having said all that… I thought that on its own, this episode was stellar. Heartbreaking and horrifying, but stellar.

    this

  411. “It is better to be feared than loved, if one cannot be both.”

    Dany just went the Machiavelli route.

  412. Danny,

    You are of course right but all these actions and events help to explain her depression, paranoia, isolation and rage. Of course, for example, I understand Jon not being able to reciprocate Daenerys feelings, and it was up to her to deal with that. Yet how different she might have responded if he had opened his heart to her. I think they actually portrayed all this rather well and Emilia did a great job of showing how she believed that she had little left to lose by the time the bells began to ring. (About which she is wrong of course.)

    I am not trying to defend her actions. They were horrible. I am trying to make sense of what made her capable of such atrocities. And through the help of many on this thread I now do.

  413. Agree, the sweet part is likely them killing Dany (the final villain of the piece) and presumably Jon becoming king.

  414. Bor Mullet:
    DDany didn’t go mad, so there was no need to show her going mad. She did what she did because she realized Westeros would never embrace her, especially after Jon’s parentage was revealed. And then Varys plotted to have her killed. She therefore consciously decided on a show of brutality, as she came to believe that fear was going to be the only way to begin her rule. Was Truman ‘mad’ when he dropped the atom bomb on two Japanese cities? No. That’s what this show gets so right: showing that otherwise good people can do horrible things. Sometimes in service of a greater good, as Dany says herself when taking about “mercy for future generations.”I mean, as a progressive, I think Sherman’s march to the sea was an essential campaign in the struggle to defeat the Confederacy. But Sherman’s army killed many civilians and burned down many homes. Was he an evil man, and was the ultimate objective evil? No. The US defeated slavery in part because of that brutal campaign. But evil things are often done in the name of good causes. Napoleon killed hundreds of thousands, both noble and common, in his effort to end the monarchies of Europe and promote Republicanism. Nearlyevery nation state today owes a debt of gratitude to him. But he was also a mass murderer.

    History is complicated. And no matter what happens, 300 years from now in Westeros, Dany might be hailed as the bringer of a new order of humanity. The carnage and slaughter softened and even made to disappear by the limited memories and lived of humankind.

    I agree with the bolded part of your post but not the rest. I don’t think you can compare something like Truman dropping the A bomb to force a surrender to Dany massacring innocents AFTER a surrender. Totally different in my mind.

  415. Welp. We were all wrong about everything smh. I’ve never been one to bash the writers, but this ep made it very very hard…

  416. Who knew the big bad was neither NK, nor Cersei… but Dany.

    I thought it was a SONG of fire and ice not, a battle. I’m just sad, don’t mind me.

  417. Raenarys:
    Who knew the big bad was neither NK, nor Cersei… but Dany.

    I thought it was a SONG of fire and ice not, a battle. I’m just sad, don’t mind me.

    It is kinda depressing all round right now. I get where you’re coming from.

  418. JamesL:
    Nadia,

    Anyone could tell you that a dragon would eventually fly over Kings Landing in this story. The snow was not ash though I wouldn’t be surprised if D&D pretend that it was like they pretended Melisandre’s line to Arya about closing “blue eyes” was about killing the Night King.

    James Hibberd confirmed on Twitter that it was Ash and not Snow in her vision, D&D have known about this since season 2.

    Aegon the IceDragon:
    Varys was actively trying to assassinate Dany.He got what he had coming.

    Oh man that’s so wrong, Varys was literally doing the right thing and died a hero.

  419. weirwoodtreehugger:

    Anyway, I think maybe some of the rage from Dany was her disappointment.The bells rang and the city was hers.But it didn’t feel like the home she always dreamed of.She didn’t feel satisfaction or fulfillment.So she just said, screw it, burn it down.

    Kind of like the fandom right now, yeah?

    Best comment on this thread😂

  420. Dyanna,

    I know better than to get my hopes up with this show, but this character arc of Dany’s is really just a low blow.

  421. ygritte:
    So many on this thread are saying the signs were there etc. and taking for granted what we just saw in this episode but where were ya’ll when DB and a few others kept calling those of us out who were speculating back in I believe season 3 that Dany would probably end up a mad queen. I don’t remember anyone having someone’s back when they were made to feel like an idiot or labeled a “hater” for what’s ended up as rightly sussing out a future plot turn. This is why it’s important to let people have the freedom to speculate on fiction all they want without getting defensive and lashing out at them. I was even called a “Jon fan girl” (in a thread regarding not Jon but Dany) as a way to dismiss my thoughts out of hand.

    I got the cold shoulder from some of the Mods in this site not that long ago for even suggesting Dany ends as the villain. Of course they are entitled to their opinions but they seemingly would not even entertain the idea.

  422. Jon Snowed,

    The montage of thoughts/comments in Danys head during the previous season clips was the best illustration of her internal conflicts.

  423. Raenarys:
    Dyanna,

    I know better than to get my hopes up with this show, but this character arc of Dany’s is really just a low blow.

    I’m guessing from your username that Dany was your best loved character? In that case, yes a very bitter pill to swallow.

  424. Dyanna,

    She was my 2nd favorite, yes. I’m a Jon Snow fan, but Jona just sounded dumb. 😉 Plus my name is Rachel, so it just fit.

  425. Enharmony1625:
    ygritte,
    Adrianacandle,

    Yeah, that’s a good point that Jon needs to do it, but it sure seems like they’re setting up Arya to do the deed. I can see Jon having misgivings about it and wanting to banish her or imprison her because she is his family, his Queen, and he loves(d) her. I dunno.. I can see it from both sides. Either one would be heartbreaking and dramatic for different reasons.

    If they keep with Jons character I think he will do what is right no matter the personal pain, as with Ygritte.

  426. ash,

    The Lord of Light brought the horse back for her? Definitely Strickland’s horse. I was wondering why they focused on and lingered on it’s death.

    Sharon,

    Jon told Sansa. Dany knows she was betrayed by them both, she told Tyrion as much.

  427. Edward,

    Easy. Daario and Jorah found her, didn’t they? They wanted to sneak out, she told them she had other plans and to trust her. Her plans involved burning them alive. It was very much her choice.

  428. RG,

    Personally, I believe Jamie’s story is the most bittersweet of all. I think his ending was perfect. His story is illustrates the good/bad in everyone. We are all influenced by our upbringing, role models, who ingrain belief systems and develop characteristics. We are all influenced by the people that we hang around with. Jamie’s character showed the conflict between his two sides, the growth as he faced life challenges and Briennes example. But in the end did we really think he would settle down in the north with Brienne? When faced with his sisters demise, I think it would have been a stretch if he hadn’t gone to her. In real life, who gets to complete their perfect arc? I think it’s perfect GRRM.
    Not that I won’t miss him….

  429. Direcat:
    RG,

    Personally, I believe Jamie’s story is the most bittersweet of all. I think his ending was perfect. His story is illustrates the good/bad in everyone. We are all influenced by our upbringing, role models, who ingrain belief systems and develop characteristics.We are all influenced by the people that we hang around with. Jamie’s character showed the conflict between his two sides, the growth as he faced life challenges and Briennes example. But in the end did we really think he would settle down in the north with Brienne? When faced with his sisters demise, I think it would have been a stretch if he hadn’t gone to her. In real life, who gets to complete their perfect arc? I think it’s perfect GRRM.
    Not that I won’t miss him….

    Lots to agree with here.

    I think more bitter though. He gave his honor and suffered all his life because he saved Kinglanding. I hated to see his end when Aerys’ daughter succeeded in doing what her father tried.

    He could not live forever in the North – doing nothing except following Sansa around.
    I hoped for a more life-affirming end – but it was not to be.

  430. ThisGirlHasNoName,

    onefromaway: Varys

    I completely agree. I think Varys had decided to take matters into his own hands. In the previous episode Tyrion begs Varys not to do something. (“Please… don’t.”)

    What I don’t understand is why the show didn’t hint this more strongly. Maybe that’s why Tyrion ratted on Varys?

  431. ShameShameShame,

    Dany may feel she was betrayed but that doesn’t make it so. She asks (begs) Jon not to tell, a secret that belonged to him and to him alone. He NEVER promises not to tell. Had he looked into her eyes and promised her that he would never tell a soul, Dany could claim betrayal. Jon pretty much tells her that he needs to tell his sisters the truth. She says don’t. He never says ok.

    The fact is that to Dany, Aegon’s whole existence is a betrayal. A betrayal of what she thought herself to be. She could live with him but only on her terms. Tragic that she didn’t allow herself a family and love. Perhaps not romantic love but love nonetheless.

  432. Danny,

    She wouldn’t have gotten the love regardless of Jon’s actions though. I don’t think Jon would have accepted her love. He may be half Targaryen by birth but he’s all Stark by nurture. Living with your aunt is not something they were raised to do.

    I think she was truly fucked by circumstances, I just hoped she’ll overcome it.

  433. weirwoodtreehugger,

    No, you aren’t alone.
    It has been hinted throughout the seasons that Dany could be quite violent so I wasn’t surprised. Even Maester Aemon said, “ A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.” To me, that always seemed prophetic. Now Dany is truly alone and feels betrayed by those around her who are left.
    Showing the street scenes through Arya’s eyes was brilliant. War is savage but we never seem to learn. Personally, I was freaking thrilled that she lived( loved bookArya ) and was tearful at her moments with Sandor. When he cupped the back of her head to speak to her, I cried. I also sobbed throughout Cleganebowl and cried out when they fell into the flames.
    Jon’s POV was great as well. He is a fighter but only when he must. He looked horrified at what was unfolding around him.
    My heart breaks for Dany even as I’m appalled at her choice to destroy the smallfolk. She is a product of her environment.
    Jamie and Cersei went out the way they came in. I’m disappointed that Jamie was too weak to change. Poor Brienne will be devastated.

    RIP Sandor, Varys. Pity for Dany, GreyWorm
    Rot in hell Euron, Cersei and Jamie

    Kudos to the actors who were brilliant
    IA David A

  434. Direcat,

    I was at peace with Jaime dying after having killed Cersei, as the villain she was deserved, at least doing something to prove that she was his dark side, the one to get rid of, not embracing his dark side and comforting her as if she were an innocent victim. Jaime is one of my favourites and imo he should have died in Brienne’s arms. I didn’t want him to die in Cersei’s arms as I don’t want anybody to die with a needle in their vein. As I wish any addict to be cured, I wished Jaime had got rid of Cersei, both literally and figuratively.

  435. Shy Lady Dragon:
    Direcat,

    I was at peace with Jaime dying after having killed Cersei, as the villain she was deserved, at least doing something to prove that she was his dark side, the one to get rid of, not embracing his dark side and comforting her as if she were an innocent victim. Jaime is one of my favourites and imo he should have died in Brienne’s arms. I didn’t want him to die in Cersei’s arms as I don’t want anybody to die with a needle in their vein. As I wish any addict to be cured, I wished Jaime had got rid of Cersei, both literally and figuratively.

    I did not like that it happened when Kings Landing burned. He gave his life (was subject to shame and rejection) when he killed Aeyrs to prevent this same thing happening. Then to see him die when Aerys daughter succeeds was not the way I would have preferred.

    Even more surprising was him saying he does not care for innocents. He killed Aerys to protect the city. He knighted Brienne with a vow about innocents. That was also a sour note for me.

  436. That episode. I have sailed past being disappointed and am now pissed. What a terrible waste of everything. Need to rewatch but I dont really feel like it??

  437. TormundsWoman,

    She wouldn’t have had Jon the lover, I agree. But he is still her nephew, her brother’s son. Blood of her blood. Jon pledges to her, he doesn’t want to abandon her. I understand she wants more and I understand how hard that can be, but romantic feelings can be overcome. Jon’s existence means that she is no longer the only Targaryen left in the world. I wish she would have been able to see that before it was too late. And it is too late now. The point of no return for her, for him.

  438. Enharmony1625

    I say it’s Arya. Jon won’t be able to, and Arya will do it. With the sword Jon had made for her back in season 1. Man this show.

    I agree. Both are justified, but Jon was inadvertently complicit in what Dany became, and Arya isn’t. Considering the charred corpse of the girl she’d protected minutes earlier…how could Arya NOT try to kill Dany? Dany had done infinitely more damage to the people of Westeros than Cersei, her whole family and Freys put together. Arya’s badass statement “I’m Arya Stark and I’m here to kill the Queen” turned out to be true, but a different queen. And I’m so relieved she turned from killing Cersei, especially at Sandor’s behest, and that she called him Sandor. Theirs was a special kind of love that cannot be spoken in a few words. BTW, remember in S3 when Sandor killed Beric and Arya screamed “Burn in hell!!!”” with Gendry (!) holding her back. And then Beric rose from death and said “He will…but not today.” I never noticed those two words until rewatching just now: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hound+kills+beric Watch how Arya is also a focus in this fight. I’m glad she does not know that SAndor (the redeemed Hound) did burn to death.

    Someone (Ygritte?) wrote : “Who would have ever thought little Arya Stark would become the hero of the story? I guess those “ANSWAP” (or whatever it is I haven’t paid too much attention lol) posters are psychic

    LOL. Not psychic, but it’s more evident in the books where we get her POVs and can see she’s talented, intelligent, ambitious, and disciplined in so many ways, several of which were pared away by D&D, like warging Nymeria from Braavos, and intuiting danger when the Lannisters try to trap her after Sansa gave their escape plans to Cersei. The show has been coy about when her abilities would fully blossom. We’ve seen hints, but they basically left it to the final season.

  439. Steel_Wind:
    King Gendry Baratheon, First of His Name (titles titles), Husband of Queen Sansa Baratheon,

    🙈

    Clob: Watching a second time and remembered I was going to comment on how that guy Arya runs into during Sandor’s fight looked like Gendry. Probably not much to it but still noticeable.

    The one who asked if she had seen his wife?

  440. Queen of Nothing,

    It wasn’t really a waste. It was what I remember GRRM writing style to be really like. Always a lot more bitter than sweet. Look at all the players that went into the game for the Iron Throne – all destroyed. From the cleverest (Tywin), to most rigid (Stannis), to the cunning (Oleanna and Margery), to the greedy (Cersei) to the one who was so wrapped up in her own vision that she forgot who she wanted to be and ended up as the one she fear she would become. It is very GRRM, the one who gave us the Red Wedding and the beheading of good guy Ned Stark. It ain’t a happy tale, it was never meant to be.

  441. TormundsWoman: Derp

    Here’s my take on Dany. Why does everyone think Dany has gone mad or is unstable? This was calculated. She hinted at her actions before the battle. “Mercy is our strength. Our mercy towards future generations, who will never again be held hostage by a tyrant.”

    Also she won’t necessarily be a bad Queen after this. Recall back in season 7 when Jamie told Olenna, “But after we’ve won, and there’s no one left to oppose us, when people are living peacefully in the world she built, do you really think they’ll wring their hands over the way she built it?” Aegon and Co. torched Harrenhal. Maybe there was collateral damage? But that eventually united the seven kingdoms and there was peace for centuries.

    As Tyrion said, “Every good ruler needs to inspire a bit of fear.”

  442. Mango,

    Again, in killing Aerys he protected the city but he only killed Aerys when he knew his father had already taken Kingslanding and was waiting outside for him to open the gates. He did it only after it was convenient for him to do so, only after his family had secured their place in the winners’ circle. People always seemed to gloss over this fact when defending Jamie. Jamie could be heroic but he was never a hero. And he loved Cersei unconditionally. He in the end was true to himself and to what he felt.

    “Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said.”

    Jamie and Cersei were always meant to die together.

  443. bsc,

    You think she would be Queen after this? People can overcome fear, hate is so much more difficult to overcome. They hate her now and you can’t really blame them.

  444. Tyrion Pimpslap:
    Steel_Wind,

    If there is a king or queen in the end, I would hope it is one of the big 3 characters. Ones that GRRM spent the most time telling their story. Sansa is borderline. While it would fit her storyline, she still lags far behind Jon,Tyrion, and Daenerys in total chapters/screen time. Gendry isn’t even worth discussing. Sorry, but him winding up as king would be dissatisfying for me.

    *ahem*

    I caution you that D&D have brought Gendry back after an absence of three seasons for absolutely no discernible reason at all. Moreover, they told the actor he would be brought back many seasons later, too. They knew where they were going and Gendry had to be in it.

    Gendry has not done anything story wise of any moment to date. Anybody could have been a smith. Any wilding could have run back to the Wall. And while, yes, not every character could have had sex with Arya — if she really wanted to hook up on her last night on earth, Podrick Payne could have easily be employed for that task, a few scenes written in to make it believable and there you go.

    There is a reason that the show runners not only brought Gendry back — but KNEW they would have to bring him back years before they did so, too.

    I am sorry if that deconstruction is too “meta” for you, but I am quite certain that “dissatisfaction” as you put it is less than a week away for you.

    Next week, by episode’s end It will be Gendry on the Throne with Sansa as his Queen — and likely Tyrion as Gendry’s Hand (perhaps not; it is true that Tyrion might die).
    Gendry has already told us that he does not know how to use a fork. The implication is that the REAL ruler of the Seven Kingdoms will be Sansa and Tyrion, and so the Seven Kingdoms will be well served. Gendry will “reign” — in the sense that he will do as he is told by those who are far better qualified than him to actually govern. Gendry reigns; Sansa rules.

    And of course, it means that we end up right where Ned and King Robert intended in Episode 1. The Houses of Baratheon and Stark would be joined – and so they will be. Just not in the way that either patriarch originally envisioned.

  445. Danny:
    Mango,

    Again, in killing Aerys he protected the city but he only killed Aerys when he knew his father had already taken Kingslanding and was waiting outside for him to open the gates.He did it only after it was convenient for him to do so, only after his family had secured their place in the winners’ circle.People always seemed to gloss over this fact when defending Jamie. Jamie could be heroic but he was never a hero.And he loved Cersei unconditionally.He in the end was true to himself and to what he felt.

    “Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said.”

    Jamie and Cersei were always meant to die together.

    That could be a valid interpretation but I disagree. And I think GRRM would as well.

    I am not put off that he died with Cersei comforting her. That was an act of love. Cersei and Jaime were twins and would love each other all their lives. The sibling bond is a very tight bond. Just look at his bond with Tyrion as well. As for their bond as lovers, both were “in complicated” status at the time.

    Cersei said that they are meant to die together – when did we start believing Cersei’s viewpoints? Have you known her to be wrong? ever?

    And anyway, when is life so pre-determined? It is one viewpoint that you are trapped by your fate. I find that worldview fairly negative – why bother to try if I cannot do better in my life?

  446. bsc,

    Arya will give the final mercy by obliterating the last remaining Targ blood – Jon. Very sad, but the Lord of Light saved her from KL and sent her a resurrected horse for that purpose. You stated it well. The biggest threat to the future is another Targ!

  447. ShameShameShame,

    No need. Jon will take himself out of the equation by going North to Ghost. Now Arya harming a single hair on Jon’s head would be the biggest character assassination and I don’t mean Jon’s assassination. I mean Arya’s.

  448. Mango,

    Sure, for the real world, it is a negative view. Not necessarily wrong mind you, no one escapes death so at least one end is pre-determined regardless of one what does. For literature, pre-determined faith hinted in text is more poetic than negative. Fiction writers always insert a bit of poetry in their writings, it is the aesthetic to the art.

  449. Danny:
    Mango,

    Sure, for the real world, it is a negative view.Not necessarily wrong mind you, no one escapes death so at least one end is pre-determined regardless of one what does.For literature, pre-determined faith hinted in text is more poetic than negative.Fiction writers always insert a bit of poetry in their writings, it is the aesthetic to the art.

    Physical limitations are for there for sure. But even those are pushed back In middle ages, people lived to only about 35 years old, now we are way past that – 75 years or so. Medicine and science have helped us push back even our physical limitations. What if we did not try?

    Literature and art can also reflect life’s victories. One of the most wonderful things to read/watch is a character that gets past a limit when they did not believe they could. That can be also truly poetic. Overcoming can be as poetic as a failure.

  450. Jack Bauer 24,

    Character incongruity alert… one thing for certain is that Drogon is a noisy bastard! I actually said out loud as Dany descended for her sneak sun-blinded attack, “why doesn’t he just stay quiet?”

  451. Raenarys:
    Dyanna,

    She was my 2nd favorite, yes. I’m a Jon Snow fan, but Jona just sounded dumb. 😉 Plus my name is Rachel, so it just fit.

    I’m a Jon fan too. I know he’s criticised a lot but I ‘get’ his character with all its flaws and his redeeming qualities which to me are special. Just heartbroken for him right now. I’m struggling to see much can be bittersweet however they wrap this up. We will see I guess.

  452. I’m hoping the next episode starts with Bran looking at episode 5 as an alternate reality that could happen depending on the road Danny chooses, providing backdrop why she shouldn’t go for revenge, otherwise burning the city makes no sense.

  453. Meg,

    Yes, but she didn’t burn the solders en mass after they bent the knee, did she? Ugh maybe I mis-saw that scene. My impression was that only Randyll and Dickon were burned, after they refused to accept her rule.

  454. Danny,

    We already had Dany mercy-kill Drogo, and Jon mercy-kill Mance, and Arya pointedly not mercy-killing Sandor.

    It’s a theme. If Dany is talking about cruel acts being acts of mercy so future generations won’t be subjected to a tyrant, well… Jon’s potential future offspring would potentially be a Targ coin flip, should he sit the throne and produce heirs.

    and we know in the released TWoW chapters that Arya becomes a girl named Mercy

    I’d like to see Jon in the North too. But maybe there is a reason Ghost is called Ghost.

  455. Danny,

    We already had Dany mercy-kill Drogo, and Jon mercy-kill Mance, and Arya pointedly not mercy-killing Sandor.

    It’s a theme. If Dany is talking about cruel acts being acts of mercy so future generations won’t be subjected to a tyrant, well… Jon’s potential future offspring would potentially be a Targ coin flip, should he sit the throne and produce heirs.

    In a sick way it would parallel what MMD said about TPTWP. Now he will burn no cities, now his Khalasar will trample no nations into dust.

    and we know in the released TWoW chapters that Arya becomes a girl named Mercy

    I’d like to see Jon in the North too.

    But maybe there is a reason Ghost is called Ghost.

    ETA not sure what happened there, sorry for the multiple posts

  456. bsc,

    I don’t think that’s possible. She stared to long into the abyss there on the walls of KL for the abyss not to stare back at her. If that was war, it should have ended with the fucking bells as planned. But it was more than that. She will now hold hostages to fear all the survivors and their descendants who wills pass on the stories of how the Mad Queen burnt down KL after they surrendered. That no one should cross her. Ever.

    And her council, as many as they are now will eventually tell that bells were the surrender signs and that she deliberately mass destroyed the people she was planning to rule. Whether I like it or not, she has committed genocide. And that is not what a good ruler does.

  457. Steel_Wind,

    I like your arguments about Gendry and could see this happening. Davos could be another voice of experience and support for Gendry and Sansa.

  458. Jon Snowed:

    Oh man that’s so wrong, Varys was literally doing the right thing and died a hero.

    Yep, Varys did die a hero (without making a sound as he burned alive, I might add. Not sure how he managed that). I knew he would when he told Ned Stark in season 1, “When you look at me, do you see a hero?” Yes. Yes, I do.

    I don’t know how Jon (indirectly) and Tyrion (directly), will handle the guilt of causing his death now that they see he was right all along.

    I’m especially worried for Tyrion though, after he freed Jaime, although I guess it doesn’t matter now that Jaime is dead (sob)….. Although it may still matter very much to Daenerys.

  459. Danny,

    Daenerys always told us who she was, what she was capable of, some tried to explain or justify things, some others agree with her actions because they were caught up in her delusion as well. But she losing whatever thread was holding her together can’t be much of a surprise. There’s only a thin thread between sanity and insanity, her scale was tipped before she was born and then she lost so much in such little time, she gave in, became what she always terrified she would become. She flirted with the idea of going fire and blood so many times, always to be reined in by others or even by her own choice but then came a point when she no longer care. She threw herself from a precipice.

    I understand this is the narrative, and it all makes sense from an analytical standpoint. My problem is that the things that were supposed to convince me of this truth didn’t really achieve that. Entitled as fck, absolutely agree. Quick to anger and make threats, yeah that happened a lot. But this doesn’t translate to the 180 in her attitude about the people she hoped to lead? As she was sitting in the city listening to their calls for surrender? It’s a giant leap.

    Regarding specifics:
    -This is the brother who treated her like trash, sold her for his own personal gain, and from everything we could tell never showed her any true loyalty or non-sexualized love. Being her brother doesn’t excuse that. Also, it would have been interesting watching her try to stop Drogo.
    -Yeah it’s pretty cold blooded, but so is participating in the murder of Dany’s Dothraki hand maids and kidnapping her “children”.
    -Crucified in response to crucifixion, eye for an eye. Not a very nuanced response, but she honestly never could have sorted out the explicitly guilty from explicitly innocent. Were the explicitly innocent masters really completely blameless when they let the explicitly guilty masters crucify the slave children? Technically they were all perpetuating and thriving from the system of human abuse and slavery, so yea…all still pretty much guilty.
    -The Khals who were sitting there talking about plans to gang rape her….it’s not on her to non-violently get out of that situation. She didn’t come back to Vaes Dothrak to win followers, she was brought there bound and against her will. She walked out of the fire, everyone kneeled.

    I agree that all of this stuff is, at best, rough-around-the-edges behavior. The problem is the context of these actions can pretty easily justify them. Perhaps not enough for everyone to agree, but enough for many people to understand the motivation. I’m not opposed to the idea of Dany going mad, I think it should be a reasonable possibility given her family and all that she has endured. I just wasn’t sold on it. We’re talking a complete 180 from being the champion of the downtrodden to burning the fck out of a city full of people calling for surrender. It was just a very “huh?’ moment, but maybe that’s an appropriate response to someone going mad?

  460. Mango: I did not like that it happened when Kings Landing burned. He gave his life (was subject to shame and rejection)when he killed Aeyrs to prevent this same thing happening. Then to see him die when Aerys daughter succeeds was not the way I would have preferred.

    Even more surprising was him saying he does not care for innocents. He killed Aerys to protect the city. He knighted Brienne with a vow about innocents. That was also a sour note for me.

    For fuck’s sake. That’s the first thing that came to mind after Jaime’s completely unsatisfying ending. Now my heart is as broken as Tormund’s. Did they have to make Jaime look like an idiot who seems to have a very special knack for getting captured? I’m not going to lie. I truly hated Jaime’s ending. It left a very bad taste in my mouth to show him 1) choosing Cersei over Brienne and breaking her heart, and 2) completely sliding back down into the poisonous quicksand that is Cersei. Were we expected to feel sympathy for Cersei? Why? Because D&D wanted to give Cersei (and therefore Lena) a good ending? Well, they did that at the expense of Jaime’s character arc. What was the point of the golden hand and his slow-building redemption? I realize that most everything he did, he did out of love for someone, but….. Where was his concern for the people of KL this time?

    Jaime was in my top three favorite characters, so I had better plans for him in my head :). The only good thing I can say is that he died being kind and protective of his sister, but aghhhhh! Brienne. Come to think of it, Brienne can thank Sansa for this. Her hateful comment was the catalyst that sent Jaime running back to Cersei.

    Oh, Brienne. I wonder if she’ll ever reconsider Tormund? Probably not. Because no one ever seems to be happy for long on GOT. Sigh.

  461. Renly’s Peach: For fuck’s sake.That’s the first thing that came to mind after Jaime’s completely unsatisfying ending.Now my heart is as broken as Tormund’s.Did they have to make Jaime look like an idiot who seems to have a very special knack for getting captured?I’m not going to lie.I truly hated Jaime’s ending.It left a very bad taste in my mouth to show him 1) choosing Cersei over Brienne and breaking her heart, and 2) completely sliding back down into the poisonous quicksand that is Cersei.Were we expected to feel sympathy for Cersei? Why?Because D&D wanted to give Cersei (and therefore Lena) a good ending?Well, they did that at the expense of Jaime’s character arc.What was the point of the golden hand and his slow-building redemption?I realize that most everything he did, he did out of love for someone, but…..Where was his concern for the people of KL this time?

    Jaime was in my top three favorite characters, so I had better plans for him in my head :).The only good thing I can say is that he died being kind and protective of his sister, but aghhhhh! Brienne.Come to think of it, Brienne can thank Sansa for this.Her hateful comment was the catalyst that sent Jaime running back to Cersei.

    Oh, Brienne.I wonder if she’ll ever reconsider Tormund?Probably not.Because no one ever seems to be happy for long on GOT.Sigh.

    I wish they have given Jaime and/or Brienne a heroic death in the battle. We would be sad but at least we could celebrate that!

    I also like Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Hound, Varys, Sansa. But 75% of my attention is jaime.

    Tormund was never on her radar.

    Brienne’s story is sensitive one of an woman who is unconventional trying to find love. Man, they gave her a one month hook-up that left.

  462. Aryakills,

    Ah, missed that on my first three rewatches, but I keep forgetting to look for Strickland’s horse in that moment.

    I’ll TRY and take another look tonight! (At least I’ll be a bit more sober for the next viewing!)

    Thanks for the info.

  463. Renly’s Peach,

    It may be that were are to feel deeply connected to Cersei and feel for her as Jaime comforted her. I love Lena’s performance but not Cersei. But she has many fans. When we met her she was vulnerable but over time she became impossible.

    There are some people that like Jaime and Cersei as a great loving match. (For me it a relationship that was dying from the moment he lost his arm. But alas, no!) For people who loved their relationship (and hated Brienne as an intruder) they wanted them to die together in a testimony to love. I did not get it! Jaime rarely smiled and I was surprised to see him laughing and enjoying himself at the party after the war of the dead. He went back to KL to his end as we expected would happen.

  464. Yeah, Jamie can’t attempt anything without being caught, even though people in KL should have wanted to aid their one-time commander of the kings guard, who should also have known ways himself to get past Dany’s troops, who don’t know the region as he does.

    Meanwhile, Arya says she’s a Stark when she gets to KL, and there to kill their queen, and they let her pass?

    Strange luck & logic there… and only for purpose of giving Jamie a chance to say goodbye to brother and then to die with his sister, while exposing Tyrion for a real treason, not just saying Jon is the truer heir.

    I think there’s a few ways that could have been accomplished without compromising the episode’s trajectory by an illogical compilation that nags on our brains.

    They devised a fairly quick and easy way to play out those points with few scenes. But it’s far short of what GRRM could accomplish in such a pinch. But that’s why he excels at world building and has impacted millions with his writing.

  465. talvikorppi,

    You’re welcome.

    It’s one of the virtues of life, making other people laugh.

    It’s one of the most important things we can do to show we care about other people.

    Not for nothing is my SO the first girl I ever made laugh during recess in First Grade circa 1961. Somehow, to my undying gratitude, I’m still able to make her laugh at 64.

    Dany is such a lovely character. It was painful to see her give into rage and allow the darkest parts of her shadow to possess her. The character has so many possibilities.

    So many other aspects of the character’s shadow (her sense of justice and compassion, creativity, etc.) might now never get an opportunity to be fully expressed because of how she allowed herself to act.

    That apparently will be one of the tragedies which will be subject to further exploration in the last episode.

    Counterbalancing that is the wonderful work done by Arya and The Hound in their last sweet moments together. Although The Hound never had any children, what he did for Arya by sending her away was one of the kindest, most paternal things any male GoT character ever expressed. The Hound always tried hard to hide his Ser Davos side, but ultimately found the courage to directly express it.

  466. Bor Mullet:
    I mean, as a progressive, I think Sherman’s march to the sea was an essential campaign in the struggle to defeat the Confederacy. But Sherman’s army killed many civilians and burned down many homes.

    Sorry, I know this is off-topic, but I cannot let this go unchallenged.

    This is neo-Confederate propaganda. The march to the Sea did not include the slaughter of civilians. It DID include the destruction of private property, but if you’re progressive (as you say you are), you should clearly understand the ethical dilemma with equating destruction of property with loss of human life.

    Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

  467. Wolfish,

    A beer it is, then.

    Or perhaps a powerful ale served at British Isles temps.

    Followed by a a really good single malt scotch!

  468. I see it where Dany stands in front of her remaining army. She then orders Tyrion to be executed by Jon’s hand. Jon draws his sword and then drops it to the ground, refusing to kill Tyrion. Dany then orders Greyworm to kill them both. However, Arya kills Greyworm with an arrow. Dany is enraged and is about to order Arya’s death when in a great tactical miscalculation, sees that her troops are now surrounded by the remaining Northern Army, the Vail, the army of Dorne and the Ironborn. Before she can say anything, Sansa orders an attack and Dany’s forces are slaughtered. Dany orders Drogon to burn everything, but Jon manages to retrieve his sword and he plunges it into the dragon’s heart. Drogon is mortally wounded and falls on top of Dany, crushing her.

  469. Colin Dougherty,

    Saner Half and I would be down for all of these when we return to the other side of the pond!!! We had a short but splendid visit to northern England and Scotland last November; my cousin and her husband were living in Durham for a year while he finished his master’s in archaeology. We spent a day and a half in Durham and five days in and around Pitlochry (my husband’s oldest known ancestor in the US emigrated from Scotland in the 1690s). We can’t wait to go back.

  470. TormundsWoman,

    I think Bran can see the future, that is why since a lot of people are unhappy about some characters arc (me on Jaime), why not imagine that the episode 4-5 were the vision of Bran on the future, Bran could have seen that when he was in warg mode just before the night king try to kill him. He said to Theon I am going to go now, but we still don’t know where he went…they was no point for him to go unless he was trying to see the course the future was going to be. I also think that the actress playing Cercei did not had a big amount of screen so far this season, that is why I want to believe/wish that the episode 6 will be another story ‘the real present’ with both Cercei and Jaime playing a part in it, or Jaime never going South 😉 Daenarys would be put on trial or exil before anything happen in KL. A girl can dream…millions people would be save..

  471. John Elshaw,

    I am glad we are having the same idea/feeling, I believe some of the plots storyline don’t really add up. I am also still wondering where Bran went warging in the last minute when he was with Theon in ep3, just when night king was approaching, I am hoping that since that time point all what we have seen so far is the vision of Bran on the future…but maybe that would be too much a stretch to have episode 6 starting back to episode4 storyline with Bran informing all the stark that million will die because of Danny..

  472. Again, in killing Aerys he protected the city but he only killed Aerys when he knew his father had already taken Kingslanding and was waiting outside for him to open the gates.He did it only after it was convenient for him to do so, only after his family had secured their place in the winners’ circle.People always seemed to gloss over this fact when defending Jamie. Jamie could be heroic but he was never a hero.And he loved Cersei unconditionally.He in the end was true to himself and to what he felt.

    I think you’ve sort of missed the point. Aerys only planned to burn the city if he lost so of course Jaime wasn’t going to kill him until after the victory over Aerys was clear. Only then did it become necessary to stop the burning of King’s Landing.

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