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With only one episode of Game of Thrones season 6 left, the cast and crew produced an episode jam-packed with dracarys, carnage, and confrontation that made the highly anticipated Battle of the Bastards truly spectacular. Let’s see if the critics agree.
Atop the Wall, we watched in awe as the explosive Battle for Winterfell finally brought the Starks home. Sue (Sullied) relishes in Ramsay’s just desserts and the union (and flirting) of Daenerys and Yara. Oz (Unsullied) breaks down the Bastards Battle and highly praises the latest installment of Epic 9’s.
Since this episode contained moments from the book series and the past, some authors are noted as Sullied or Unsullied. Be sure to still exercise caution when reading some reviews for book spoilers.
Myles McNutt, A.V. Club (Sullied) – McNutt discusses the need and result of the battle saying “the show’s raison d’être has become one-upping itself, enabling the actors, directors, and writers to do interviews discussing how they’ve once again topped the previous year’s spectacle.”
Alyssa Rosenberg, The Washington Post (Sullied) – Rosenberg embodies the fan’s reaction of the episode writing “I’m still trembling, even though this episode is over and I’m trying to get down to the work of writing something serious about an episode that was better than I expected.”
Sean T. Collins, Rolling Stone – Collins reviews the bloodlust and fury of “Battle of the Bastards.”
Rob Bricken, io9 – After the last few episodes which Bricken calls “low-key”, he praises this episode calling it “possibly the most incredible battle that has ever been seen on TV.”
James Hibberd, Entertainment Weekly – Also highly praising the episode, Hibberd states the episode “just gave us everything we wanted.” EW also has interviews with director Miguel Sapochnik, Iwan Rheon (Ramsay Bolton), Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark), and Kit Harington (Jon Snow).
Sarah Hughes, The Guardian (Sullied) – Another satisfied critic, Hughes says Game of Thrones is “at its brutal best when dealing with the horror of war and this excellent episode – the best of the season – was no exception.”
Neil Miller, Film School Rejects (Sullied) – Miller says it was a “technically proficient episode, one that expanded the visual scope of the show greatly, but it was also an episode crafted to maximize the micro-levels of drama at the expense of say, logic.”
David Crow, Den of Geek – Crow cheers for Sansa’s revenge and applauds Sophie Turner’s growth over the series.
Laura Hudson, Wired – Hudson examines the huge moments of Ice and Fire we got in “Battle of the Bastards.”
Alan Sepinwall, Hitfix – Sepinwall was disappointed with the episode saying it held “Tons of stunning combat imagery, but less satisfying than it should have been.”
Brandon Norwalk, A.V. Club (Unsullied) – Norwalk praises the masterful work of the episode’s director, saying “Miguel Sapochnik realizes the grandeur of every movement of his battles.”
Jen Chaney, Vulture – Also pleased with the episode, Chaney writes “the penultimate episode of this season goes out of its way to satisfy an appetite for destruction.”
David Malitz, The Washington Post (Unsullied) – Malitz has raves for director Miguel Sapochnik and says the “Battle of the Bastards” was “a true spectacle — visually stunning, emotionally draining and culminating with some fulfilling revenge.”
Laura Bogart, Salon – Bogart explores the parallels in “Battle of the Bastards” with Daenerys in Meereen and Jon in Winterfell while calling the episode “the most intense yet.”
Laura Stone, Hey, Don’t Judge Me (Unsullied) – Stone is beyond exuberant with the final showdown between Sansa Stark and Ramsay Bolton.
David Rosenblatt, Squinty Over Analyzes Things (Sullied) – Rosenblatt highly praises the entire Game of Thrones team in producing the most memorable episode yet.
Michal Schick, Hypable – Schick breaks down the bloodthirsty episode with Dany in Meereen, meeting Yara, and of course, the epic Battle of the Bastards.
Alicia Lutes, Nerdist – Lutes is ecstatic over the latest episode and the triumphs in Meereen and Winterfell.
Check back for Bex’s video recap round-up later this week!
As expected, most critics were just as impressed by the episode as fans were. The cast and crew’s extensive hard work on the spectacle certainly showed and paid off. What are your thoughts? Let us know below!
Hodor! Wyllis! Snow/Stark/Targaryen!
Sepinwall’s point that the writing made it so that Jon Snow had almost nothing to do with his own victory is well made. Littlefinger Gandalf is the biggest problem with this episode – the writer’s desire for it suborned all logic to that end.
Chuff
Yarp. It’s a knock out ep critic wise. Well deserved.
Tywin at Blackwater
Stannis at the Wall
Victarion at Meereen
Littlefinger at Winterfell
George RR Martin love to do this way.
why is no one talking about the three horn blasts during the davos discovers shireen pyre scene… THE WALL IS BEING ATTACKED
Alyssa Rosemberg’s review made me realize something: Jon’s desperate crawl out from under all those bodies back to the top must’ve reminded him of coming back from the dead. That puts a lot more sauce in that sequence.
Yes, but you forget… When GRRM does it, it is brilliant. When D&D does it, it is lazy and contrived deux ex machina. 🙂
Dorian,
My thoughts exactly.
The visuals were good, the director was good. But the writing…not so much. There was a lot of forced drama for the sake of inserting LF into the story.
What?
I agree with Sepinwall, Miller and McNutt
I think it is…interesting….that they submitted this for the writing Emmy instead of the finale like last year. The finale should have more writing/story then a battle episode.
Kingsuna,
Big Bob Baratheon!!
BOILED LEATHER,
Congrats on graduating to “no one” status?
Dorian,
Isn’t that exactly the point they’re trying to convey?
And on another note- why don’t you add here the NY Times reviews?
It´s fascinating to see the open field battles of the show evolving from short bursts of action as in Blackwater to these huge setpieces in this episode. Applause to everyone working on it.
Especially the camera-team, this was amazing work. Everything was just amazing to look at and for the first time since a very, very, very long time a shaky-cam was put to use just right, depicting rapid movements in genuine panic and not just being a shoe-horned in, campy device to make the scene seem more dynamic and hide bad choreography. Great camera-work.
Everything about this battle, from extras, choreography to CGI, it all was just on point.
Lars,
GRRM doesn’t make his characters inscrutably obtuse in order to drive the story forward. Given its sub a well worn cliche at this point, the smarter play would not have been the non-surprise surprise charge which everyone and their dog saw coming (which makes Sansa’s refusal to say anything about them all the more puzzling) but to instead *confirm* that they’re coming and have the tension come from *holding on long enough on the battlefield* – the Northern army being forced to give battle for whatever reason you like – with a good plan in place and lots of personal heroism etc.
Instead, Ramsay, the shows most amazingly competent villain, lines up all his ducks in a row and deserves to win by having the best plan in every particular, and only loses due to unexpected reinforcements. It’s poor.
I’d like to see the heroes win because they have the better plan, rather than win despite everything they did to ensure they’d lose.
Jack Bauer 24,
They submitted this episode for a lot of technical categories, so I assume they are hoping the Emmy voters will nominate it for everything. Emmy voters tend to be a bit lazy. Award season tends to be a bit like GoT itself. 😛 Idk.
I expected to see the finale as well. There’s a lot of KL in it apparently and that usually involves a lot of talking lol.
Jade Joon,
Personally, I think everything the NY times writes is garbage, fictional at best
This is the best episode in television history. If somebody is finding a lot of fault in it, their opinion probably isn’t a very good one.
Jack Bauer 24,
More doesn’t equal better. I thought the dialogue was pretty solid esp Sansa’s final one to Ramsey. Even the Mereen scenes worked and they’ve been a struggle all season.
plop_plop,
Hahaha seriously? Numerous Pulitzer Prizes later, and the paper of record and you think they write fiction. Ha hahahha….funniest thing I’ve ever heard.
Ravyn,
Dany and Tyrion not becoming their fathers I AM HERE FOR THAT. Putting Tyrion and Dany together is still one of the best things this show has done. Their scenes in Hardhome were electric, and the way they again show his mild horror with her but also her ability to dial it back and be better is golden. I tend to think this show overindulges Tyrion but there’s no question that they’re both at their best together.
I thought they smartly wove in this idea that Dany was veering towards the crazy but that before she heads to Westeros she has to have this conversation with Tyrion about tempering that. Bringing new people into her story line has at various points really breathed life into it because it somehow always reminds Dany of what she is and is not, and the Theon/Yara meeting was a perfect example.
I saw one other person mention it in one of the other threads. I had to go back and watch that scene again because I didn’t catch it in any of my three viewings last night. I figured it must be just part of the music, right? However, it seems fairly clear to be three horn blasts. It is a different sounding horn though. The one in this scene is like the one that was blown all night at Winterfell to drive Theon mad. The NW’s horn is big sounding, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT3RfN0-Kd4
versus the one in the Davos scene:
Apologies if this has already been posted but it’s an awesome re-interpretation of ep9. I don’t know who did it but I am in love with them 😀
Isn’t Winterfell a LONG way from the Wall? They’d never hear the horn from the Wall from there. It was probably the horn sounding at the camp. Horns = common in medieval warfare.
Glad to see you ran a still from the Meereen segment of last night’s episode. I thought that part was a lot of fun, and not getting as much attention as “Ramsay’s Comeuppance” on the intertubes,
And here’s hoping Wun Wun returns next year sporting a wicked cool giant eyepatch.
Funny stuff. “Dany left us to die in an arena of death” indeed! 😉
Agree. 100%. thankyou thankyou thankyou for being a ray of positivity on a page where everyone seems to be picking on everything D&D do on this show
Sepinwall was bitter that having to watch Thrones took away from watching the NBA game live.
Lulus Mum,
Its ChrysK, I know she has a Patreon site. I love the Jon/Sansa exchanges.
Jon: “I’ll protect you Sansa, I promise.”
Sansa: “Don’t break another oath so soon.”
Jon: “ICE FUCKING COLD”
LOL
While he may have valid criticisms, I just don’t think Sepinwall likes GoT very much. It’s not his type of show. He’s much more into cerebral stuff, except for Lost. I think he just wants to get into the mix because it’s the only watercooler show left on TV and he doesn’t know what to do with himself now that Mad Men is over. 😛
On my rewatch, I did notice a mistake in the script and it bugged me. Sansa’s big moment is when she tells Ramsay that his dogs haven’t eaten in 7 days, that he said it himself. But he doesn’t even say that until after she delivers her “You’re going to die tomorrow. Sleep well.” line and rides back to camp.
Dear D&D, you need to hire me to pore over your scripts like an obsessed nerd. I’ve said it before – I’ll do it for free*
*and if you send me Tom Wlaschiha.
schase,
She’s hilarious. “Kibbles Bolton” LOL!
My two pennies: amazing episode! Now, off to watch it again…
Laura,
My comment about sepinwall was somewhat in jest, as I’m a huge fan of his and find I share his view points on 99% of shows he reviews (or doesn’t). I do think he enjoys GOT (in fact I think one season made his top 10 list one year) but it’s def not his favorite, not that it has to be. He is consistent in that he always chooses character emotion over theatrics and plot twists.
My only problem with his review is he seemed to nitpick at a few things to round out his negative review. The observation about Danys dragon flight being just okay because some of the CGI looked faulty was a reach Imo. Oh and he never was able to get past his hated of Ramsey dating back to season 3. Aside from this review the only other GOT review I strongly disagreed with him on was The Rains of Castemere (Red Wedding). He was down on that episode, but I suspect it had more to do with hype/spoilers by book fans in his comments section. Come to think of it he didn’t like Jons resurrection either so it seems if something is hyped and/or predictable it better have something else to garner his praise.
Laura,
I think he’s only really had problems with some of the stories that people at large have had – the issue of Sansa, the rape, and the Winterfell plot last season (and making so much of it about Theon) and relatedly, just the gratuitous over the top Ramsay stuff (like how long that scene with Fat Walda took). It’s always been my interpretation that he thinks GOT is at its worst when it uses gratuitous violence just for violence and shock sake, which some of the endless Ramsay stuff was (and also nudity), and I can’t say that I disagree.
And to be fair, given how angry people were that D&D were so tone-deaf last season but seem to have done a 180, I sometimes wonder if there’s some element of addressing the criticism. After all, the play scene showed us that they’re not unaware or totally immune to reacting to critiques
Laura,
Agreed, they should have caught that.
Still thought this was an awesome episode. This old lady loves a good battle. The show delivered.
kakakakate,
agree
Ok ok, so the battle was all awesome and all that…..we all agree. But this is how dumb down the writing has become. I’m watching the episode right now. Sansa says to Ramsey before the dogs eat him….you said yourself you haven’t fed them in 7 days. Now how the hell does Sansa know this. She had already ridden off!
from salon
precisely, I thought of Private Ryan at some moments.
Beer Island,
This has been discussed in numerous other threads. It’s highly likely and plausible that Jon told her this off screen. Could it be an error, sure. But it’s so minor and not at all a legit reason to complain about the writing.
I just watched it again within the episode. The horn is just their wake up and call to arms.
When I heard all the people complaining about Sansa’s “stupidity”, all I could think was “Are you kidding me, she was awesome, and her actions were completely understandable!”
When I read Laura Stone gushing over Sansa in her review, all I could think was “Are you kidding me, she was an idiot who got thousands of people killed, because she couldn’t tell Jon something!”
I’m starting to think I have a problem… 😛
What happened to the Twitter roundup? I enjoyed seeing other people’s unadulterated reactions to the episodes, as well as the oft-humorous creations they post. On another note that I haven’t seen mentioned; Tormund survived, which can only mean that he and Brienne will still hook up.
D&D said at the beginning of the season that this would be a season of women and queens, and perhaps some of it is a response to how much they got bashed for last season. The women are undoubtedly winning and kicking total ass, but some of it involved jumping through some logical hoops to get there.
I agree with TIME’s review, which is that it’s so important that it happens but it’s come with some weird decisions:
“The plot twist in Winterfell was even more problematic. Why wouldn’t Sansa tell Jon about sending the raven to Littlefinger for help?
Some fans have floated theories. Maybe she didn’t know Littlefinger was coming—but of course he was, he’s in love with her. Maybe she was bitter at Jon for not listening to her advice—but it doesn’t seem like throwing that fit is worth costing thousands of men their lives. Maybe she wanted to employ the element of surprise—but Sansa herself said in the episode she knows nothing of military strategy. Maybe it was Littlefinger’s idea—but why would Sansa trust Littlefinger more than Jon after Littlefinger pawned her off to a sadistic husband?
Indeed, Sansa would not even have had to swoop in and save Jon in the first place had Jon, a supposedly deft commander, not fallen for Ramsay’s obvious trap, the very same trap Sansa had warned him about the night before.
There’s simply no rational reason, only a dramatic one: The writers wanted to give Sansa her moment.”
Again, the outcome was completely and totally well deserved because of what she endured and her getting to end Ramsay was poetic justic, but it came at the expense of logic with drawing out this false conflict over hiding the Vale from Jon.
I agree with this the most:
“My guess is George R.R. Martin’s books will eventually end up with similar victories for women. But Martin’s path has always been long and circuitous, whereas the show is now taking short cuts to race to the end. (There are just two truncated seasons left.)”
http://time.com/4374996/game-of-thrones-women-battle-of-the-bastards-sansa-stark/?xid=time_socialflow_twitter
Sansa may very well ride North with the Vale to Winterfell in the books, without Jon knowing it, but that’s one way the way a book can develop some payoff works better than a show.
Just publish the damn book so we know GRRM. 😉
Joe,
It is a legit reason. Its the subtleties that makes the show what it is and that was blatant. And yeah haven’t been here since the episode aired.
Beer Island,
Okay that’s your opinion and that’s fine. To me it’s a small detail that can just as easily be explained by Jon saying to Sansa after she asked for Ramsey, “he’s tied up in the kennel, and look out, he hasn’t fed his dogs in 7 days.”
I love the picture you have used on top of the article ..
The Dragon with three heads. .
About D&D making all wonen strong and badass based on criticism ..every women from Dany .,arya .,brienne to yara and lyanna mormont all have been strong badass in the books as well..
Its only sansa that is not yet there ..maybe we will know how she turns out in the next book
Iam surprised sepinwall didn’t like this episode I thought this was the episode he will eat it up with delight.
Joe,
Yeah because that’s what we been doing most of the season. Explaining away illogical faulty plot lines. I mean its fine for people to fap over everything. They have put on a speed burst rushing the series to a conclusion and its doing an injustice to what came before. They still do amazing work with the battles and violence and some story lines are intact so it’s not all doom and gloom.
Beer Island,
Okay agree to disagree. I also don’t think they are rushing.
I really enjoy the show (and the books too), probably will be one of my favorites of all time, and I don’t expect it to be on the level of a show like The Wire where every line seemed to have a purpose. It’s a fantasy show with deep characters and great CGI and if I start picking apart small tidbits I probably won’t enjoy it as much. So I don’t worry about small things like that.
Jack Bauer 24,
Even if this episode had no flaws whatsoever in terms of the script (yes I know some people think that’s the case but I’m expressing my view) it would still be very surprising for it to win an Emmy for writing, of all things. The writing was very straightforward, there wasn’t anything spectacular about that. What was outstanding was the directing, the acting, the cinematography, and all the other technical departments.
Honestly, with episodes like “The Door” and what I’m sure will be an extremely interesting finale full of twists, I’m baffled by this submission.
However, Sapochnik was ripped off last year, “Hardhome” wasn’t even nominated in the directing category (but “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” was, for reasons unknown to mankind), and they gave the award to Nutter, which is a scandal in my opinion. Even if Nutter is very good, “Hardhome” was a masterpiece, and it deserved recognition.
If Sapochnik doesn’t take it home this year, not only will the Emmy’s be confirmed once and for all to be pretty much meaningless, but it’ll truly be an insult to a man who accomplished the most visually groundbreaking sequence that TV has ever seen, a sequence that can even compete with some big movies.
Dorian,
So well said. I’m with you 100% on that.
Joe,
Nothing is a legit reason then.
I don’t really see how it would have come up. Why would Jon mention that ?
If he had, we probably would have seen it.
Did he come back to the camp and say “Hey, after you left Ramsay threatened to feed us to his dogs. Apparently he hasn’t fed them in seven days” ? Doesn’t really make much sense, there’s no reason to share the information, and Jon has previously tried to shield Sansa from Ramsay’s vile threats, like when he didn’t want to read the end of Ramsay’s letter.
It’s a mistake on their part. Not a big deal, but a little irritating, and could definitely be called lazy.
The Bastard,
If somebody is finding a lot of fault in it, their opinion probably isn’t a very good one
At least you said probably. Two people can view an episode and have different thoughts and both opinions be valid, because they are opinions not facts. And everyone has them.
I personally loved the episode. Yes, there were a few issues, and I could spend time sifting through them, but others have put themselves out and pointed out the good and the could be improved much more ably than I can.
But the overall impact was amazing, incredible. That doesn’t mean that someone who thought otherwise didn’t have a good opinion.
schase,
Supposedly.
I cannot say for certain that it is not the NW (as the time frames from the episodes vary from arc to arc) but it seems unlikely.
kakakakate,
Telling other people that there opinion isn’t isn’t a very good one” is positive? Without any explanation as to why other than it differed from that person’s opinion? “Not very good” seems rather negative to me.
BigMac,
Then we both do. 🙂 I feel the same way.
Markus Stark,
This this this.
Hardhome is still in my mind the best episode of GOT ever, bar none.
If he didn’t win it for the battle, what about the other amazing character moments? We get some fantastic Tyrion and Dany dialogue. It was the best at that point I’d seen Emilia act. And then the way that Sansa and Theon scene was filmed with shadows and light when he admits Bran and Rickon were alive… beautiful.
I don’t think Mother’s Mercy came close to it. He wuz robbed!!
Darkrobin,
Thank god for you and people like you. I wish more commenters had your attitude.
Nadia,
Yup, I agree, Hardhome beats Mother’s Mercy by a mile in my book !
Love HH and BotB, but WotW is still my favorite. I’m nostalgic about Season 4, since it is the first season i started watching live and i also saw Watchers in IMAX.
Jack Bauer 24,
That 360 tracking shot is still a wonder.
Joe,
Nadia,
I love Sepinwall. Read his book and was addicted to his Breaking Bad recaps. I don’t know what the term is but I am a book purist in the sense that when things happen on the show that I’ve really been wanting, I can tend to forgive a lot. I guess that’s fan service? I’m a fan service ho?
So, I can forgive a lot of nonsense/jet packs/DXM, etc. if it all ends up in a place that I like. It’s not that I want a dumbed-down version of the show but YES I want Arya to go back to Westeros and I can forgive her mortal wounded parkouring. YES I want to see the Stark banners unfurled on Winterfell again so I forgive Jon Snow’s idiocy on the field and Sansa’s seeming manipulation.
Do I wish the writing was smarter? YES. Do I wish I was surprised a lot more often? HELL YES. The only episode this season that I felt really surprised by was The Door. I do think there are some pretty big problems with the writing and I don’t know that they will be corrected by next season or even the last season. The biggest problem, in my estimation, is the constant bashing us over the head with foreshadowing like we’re all 4 years old. I didn’t read any spoilers other than the ones posted here last summer/fall, but it’s 100% obvious that Cersei is burning shit “to the ground” next week and I am bummed out that it’s been telegraphed from 67 miles away.
For the most part, I guess I am just choosing to sit back and enjoy the story as a whole rather than nitpick, for my own sanity. I totally respect why people have been unhappy with some facets of this season but I love most of what I’ve seen. The Door was simply stunning to me and I hope we get some of that kind of writing next Sunday. But if Arya just jetpacks to Westeros and murders a fuckton of Freys, I might be equally satisfied 🙂
Markus Stark,
Thank you. And i have my bad moments as well. Generally when I am tired and should be in bed like now 🙂 But thanks!
Maybe the young Lady of House Mormont still has a significant role to play from here on out… It wasn’t lost on me that the shield that Jon used to defend Ramsey’s arrows was a Mormont shield.
Laura,
I didn’t read any spoilers other than the ones posted here last summer/fall, but it’s 100% obvious that Cersei is burning shit “to the ground” next week and I am bummed out that it’s been telegraphed from 67 miles away.
I agree. That’s why I’ve quit putting this item and a few others in spoiler tag. If it does not happen, that would surprise me more than almost anything else on the show. And I can see her arc and Jamie’s starting to true-up more to book form, or perhaps not. Next week, I think I’ll be really surprised about some of the scenes, or at least I hope I will.
Laura,
Er, that’s not a mistake. Here’s a perfectly logical explanation. Offscreen, Sansa tells Jon that she wants Ramsay to suffer a horrible death. Jon says: “He told me he hadn’t fed his dogs for seven days.” Sansa smiles.
Plot holes are only plot holes if there’s no possible in-universe explanation for what happened. This is about as far from that definition as possible.
Or as Carl Sagan once said, “an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Just because we don’t hear Jon give Sansa that information, it doesn’t follow that he didn’t give it to her. Indeed, having offered Sansa her vengeance right, it’s highly probable that he would relay this information to her.
Laura,
A movement away from “surprise twists” is the most significant evidence to date that the writing on this show is maturing. Shock does not equal “smart.”
Markus Stark,
Jon knows that Sansa wants to take her vengeance on Ramsay. In that context, it’s perfectly reasonable to believe that he would tell Sansa that. Either that, or they came across the kennel. And the dogs were barking. And Jon says: “I remember Ramsay saying he hadn’t fed them in days, in preparation for having them eat us all.”
That’s the problem with the show too much happens off screen. The audience is left to fill in the blanks, hence people coming to different conclusions to character motivation. If it weren’t for cast and showrunners’ interviews my interpretation of a scene would be completely different. It’s very disappointing of a show that is visually and musically very well crafted. It’s a shame that the writing is not up to the same standard.
I’ll wow, I just finished the episode (a day late because I moved today…)
Was WOW SO HAPPY with the Mereen stuff. Yes. Dany is not crazy. Yes. Dany is taking steps to prevent her allies from raping people. Yes. Dany listens to Tyrion and together they come up with an awesome strategize. Yes. Dany and Yara should make out and rule he 7k together (Gemma Whelen is like 6 inches taller than EC btw). All the yes.
Bob – oh man… I mean the odds were already so bad for the Starks – did they have to make Jon fuck up their tactics too? I get why they did it – they really wanted Kit in the thick of it and wow did he deliver. That over the shoulder long shot was unlike anything I’ve seen. Tormund giantsbae brought it too. Sansa killing Ramsey after Jon defeats and almost kills him was quite satisfying.
Still I was disappointed not to have any GNC/manderleys/etc. and no Podrienne. But I guess that means that Brienne must be doing something else this season… Hmm…
Speaking of next week – Glad to see more Dany action – I guess they’ll be planning the invasion? After this epi I’m not sure. I think she was grabbing Daarios face while he’s crying? Saying goodbye for now? Missandei better stay – they need someone with some sense too.
But was that Jaime with Walder Frey?? Are we going to get the Lannisters take out the Freys? Or the Manderleys? I don’t see why Jaime would go to the twins at all (NCW said in his interview last time “well he has to go back (to KL) surely?” But maybe that was misdirection). maybe Jaime is just informing Walder of the deal with Edmure…? Hmm.
Also glad to see San-Jon hugging. Aw.
When Dany told Yara, “No more reaving and pillaging” I fully expected a record scratch to stop all the dramatic music. Yara’s response was laughable for a moment and I was thinking to myself that she has to be lying when she accepted. Iron Born will never abandon what they are. What’s Yara gonna be, “Queen of the Peaceful Iron Born Fisher Folk “? Good luck convincing the Iron Born that they can’t be that anymore.
Does anyone know jon snows kill count after Battle of the Bastards ?
ManderlyPieCompany,
I don’t think it’s too much to ask a leader to move her people away from being disgusting parasites and actually try to create a better world. She’s doing the same with the Dothraki via the dosh khaleen surely.
So what will Ironborn do now that they can’t just leech off of better people? Trade. Fish. Provide the finest navy in the 7k when its needed.
Jack Bauer 24,
I just read an article where Liam Cunningham was interviewed today. Here’s an excerpt where he talks about the finale and to me it sounds like there will not be much going on in the North:
“The Battle of the Bastards” was huge, but now what can we expect from the finale?
Listen, we’re not going to top what we did in [Episode 9] in action and digital quality. I mean, a huge change is coming. We’ve seen what happened with Daenerys and Yara and Theon. We’ve watched that take shape. There’s so many stories going on in this. In a sense, the Winterfell story has now ceased to be as scary as it has been. I think what we’ve got coming up is a big story, perhaps with the Lannisters, for the end of this. Cersei is in a very difficult position. We’ve got all that to look forward to. We have to get around our world in Westeros and see what the other participants are getting up to, and that’s what’s going to come in Episode 10.
ygritte,
Which is weird because his character is obviously having an emotional moment confronting Melisandre in front of (probably) Jon about Shireen in the preview. Also pretty sure Bran getting last half of a vision with his father and Jon talking to Sansa and LF talking to Sansa and something about the crypts and…
Well, yeah, Cersei is going to be HUGE-but I think we’re going to have some quality North time. And Riverland time. We kind of have to.
This is when I wish the finale was two hours long. So many story lines.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
Someone said twenty-something earlier-but I don’t know. It was a lot.
ManderlyPieCompany,
Agreed. None of the other supposed “lapses” were as weird as this one. No way Yara gives up the Ironborn Way.
Oh man, not with the hound thing again.
Sansa did not personally lift up Ramsay from where he was lying unconscious, tied him up on a chair, took him to the kennels and waited for him to come around. She obviously did all this with the help of Jon and other people. Who knew about the dogs. And probably told her “hey, you know what, that little POS even threated us with his dogs”. And Sansa said “well, it would be poetic justice if we feed him to those dogs he used so long for tearing people up”.
I don’t want to sound condenscending or anything, it is just that I cannot understand why people keep forgetting that show characters are supposed to have more dialogue/interaction/even action that we don’t get to see on the screen. Why isn’t anyone complaining about Tyrion and Daenerys sudden chat with the Greyjoys? We didn’t see them arrive to Meereen, we didn’t see them talk to each other about what to say to the Queen, nor requesting a hearing, nor Daenerys saying to Tyrion before the meeting “so, what can you tell me about those two”, and you know what, it doesn’t matter. Things happen off screen guys.
Jack Bauer 24,
There were three horn blasts…distant but there, when Davos came upon Shireen’s pyre. I made a point of listening on my rewatch.
The Twitter roundup normally gets on screen around Wednesday-Thursday.
And I regret to say taht the Tormund-Brienne ship has sunk, my friend. Torpilled by the U-boat Jaime (who I hope will survive his visit chez les Freys, I don’t trust that old weasel).
I’m willing to wait till next week before weighing in on Sansa not sharing info with Jon. Based on the preview it will be addressed. How much she knew and when she knew it was sort of unclear in the episode, so that is a legit complaint about the episode.
I think the one overreaching reason she didn’t share info with Jon was because she just doesn’t completely trust him. She doesn’t trust him to make the right decision with that information. It’s kind of a tragic aspect of their relationship that they love each other but don’t really know each other – and Sansa in particular has learned to keep her secrets, never let anyone know all the cards you have.
Plus, it’s very doubtful that anything would have changed, which is why it is hard for me to be outraged by this. The idea that Jon would change strategy because and untrustworthy stranger might be coming is bizarre to me, and I find it strange so many people think that would have occured.
And actually the way LF did show up was strategically ideal. The only reason why the Vale soldiers cut through so easily was because the Bolton army was in a vulnerable position, surrounding the wildlife with their shields and spears pointed inward. Ramsay didn’t allow them to do that until Davos led the remaining Snow forces into the field, thinking he has everyone trapped. The key to defeating him wasn’t so much the increased numbers but that Ramsay didn’t see it coming. I’m not going to pretend Sansa thought that all through but any argument that Sansa’s secret hurt Jon’s chances of winning doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. The surprise factor was not only narratively satisfying it was strategically important in the battle.
I think those horn blasts were just calling in the men to get ready for the battle, the signaling that the time has come.
I completely agree with you Laura; I enjoy the show too, and if I am not 100% pleased with the writing, so be it (my argument is that I wish there was more dialogue/character development, I feel the plot is somehow rushed so that everything fits in).
BUT: let’s be honest. How can we be surprised if we started checking spoilers since June last year. I mean, I so tried to avoid spoilers (when people remembered to spoiler-tag their comments…) and still I knew there was a battle on ep 9, I knew it would involve the Starks/Wildlings/Boltons/Mormonts/Karstarks etc, I knew that LF would show up, someone had even spoiled me (on FB, not here) about the whole Rickon+arrow thing. So I feel it is unfair (this is not aimed at you but in general) to say that the show (including, or maybe even more, ep 9) is predictable. Guys, if it is suprise you want, stay away from the internet (not trying to boycott here, Sue and rest of Team WotW!!).
Last year, when I watched Hardhome, I was completely unprepared for it. Hadn’t read a thing, no spoilers, nothing. And I was amazed. It is not fair to compare.
This year, I knew more or less what would happen in the Battle of the Bastards. The general lines + the outcome. It didn’t suprise me, but still amazed me. And to me, that’s as good as it gets. I only have to blame myself for getting spoiled beforehand.
I read it in another thread and I think it may be a valid point, that the reason why Sansa would not say anything about the Vale army to Jon, is because in the book Sansa was not at Winterfell, and may not be together with Jon at this point, and Jon would not know in this battle that there would be a Vale army coming to the rescue. This may be the point when the show returns more to the book with Sansa and LF arriving to the rescue unexpectedly. It is true, that it could have been done better in the show, but it may be a reasonable possibility.
I didn’t really understand the point of adding that scene with Rickon between the beating and the kennel, and Sansa asking where Ramsay is. After Jon beat him to pulp, I don’t think Sansa would ever let Ramsay out of her sight, and I think it was Sansa’s idea to put him into the kennel, as as she said, it was only her who really knew what Ramsay was capable of, and Jon and his company wouldn’t necessarily decide on such a fate for him without knowing him really. So the kennel IMO was definitely Sansa’s idea for a payback. And I loved how she got Ramsay to finally taste fear, you can hear it in his voice, as he tries to order his hound down, and that finally the hound senses his fear, and his instinct and hunger overrides his loyalty to his master. The scene with Rickon could have easily been moved to the beginning of EP10, thus giving even time to Jon to learn about his father’s remains back at Winterfell. I mean, how the hell did he know that???
Something had been bugging me about this episode, but I could not quite put me finger on it… then it occurred to me:
Sansa rides off (quickly) 22 seconds before Ramsay states that he hasn’t fed his dogs in seven days, yet she refers to that line in the final scene of the episode. It’s a small mistake in an incredible episode, but it was nagging at me.
Myles McNutt (AV Club) also makes some valid points, summarising why the spectacle felt somewhat hollow for a number of us.
“[W]hereas the three previous battles have all felt in some way transformative or generative as far as storytelling is concerned, “Battle Of The Bastards” played as a cocktail of inevitability, without the type of uncertainty, fear, and moral ambiguity that defined those previous conflicts. It was a war between absolute heroes and diabolical villains in a show that has often avoided such conflicts, and that binary led to a battle that was as inert as it was impressive.”
SweetTrix,
I totally agree. Rickon’s internment should have been a big emotional moment. Both Sansa and Jon should have accompanied Rickon to the crypts. It was, here is Rickon’s body and its “meh”. Why not demand Mel to attempt resurrection or something, anything. I don’t know, I just hope there is a satisfying resolution next week and it’s not all swept under the carpet.
<a
Sou,
Sou, I picked up on that as well on my rewatch…Sansa was already riding off from the truce meet aftr she said to Ramsey, “Lord Bolton you will die tomorrow.”
THEN, Ramsey brought up about his starving dogs.
Fuchsia,
Come to think of it, I guess if it had been my brother, I would certainly try to have him brought back from the dead.
I mean, give it a shot, at least (it doesn’t mean that R’hllor would want to bring him back though, it seems he brings back those for whom he has a plan or something).
By the way, do remains buried in crypts are zombie-prone?
Gotfan,
Sure, my point being they are supposed to be talking off screen too. Like we get to see 10% of their interaction.
Let’s not be the constant doubting Thomas.
I mean, I get people who nitpick about Arya’s survival in an antibiotic-free world or Melisandre’s choker-less bath (although, even on that, I am like, ok, let’s move on) but the Ramsay/Sansa/hounds thing is particularly meaningless.
Beer Island,
I really can’t abide this level of righteous stupidity. Are you really asking “how the hell does Sansa know that Ramsay hasn’t fed his dogs in seven days?” when Ramsay makes this pronouncement to every single person in Jon’s leadership council, including Jon himself? Offscreen, when Jon or Tormund shows Sansa where they are keeping Ramsay, and she makes it clear that her method of revenge must match Ramsay’s cruelty, is it not reasonable to assume that someone might tell her about the dogs? Or, say, as they are surveying Winterfell, Jon and Sansa notice the starved, howling dogs, and Jon mentions: “they haven’t been fed in seven days.” There are thousands of different permutations of this which quite adequately explain how Sansa would know. How are so many people missing this basic logic? Maddening. I mean, this is a post-Enlightenment world, and we can’t figure out how Sansa knows about something that all her damned friends, and brother, know about? Fandom can be a truly depressing place.
Gotfan,
Yeah, Ramsay brought up the starving dogs to a bunch of Sansa’s allies, who…drum roll…have the capacity to communicate with Sansa!
ygritte,
Oh things will be happening in winterfell they have at least four scenes that we know of but yeah considering what might be going on in kl or the riverlands or even bran it’s small potatoes
I read the Sepinwell recession. I’m not familiar with him, in general, but was very surprised to find it basically another fan recession – and don’t get me wrong, I’m alright with them too, that’s why I’m on this site – , concentrating how the critic was disappointed on the story and character development either not going to the direction he expected, or, being “too predictable”. Very little attention was given to cinematographic aspects of the thing, except that it very good (it was brilliant, easily one of the best thing in TV ever, in that respect) or even how the episode was set dramaturigally. These aspects should have definitely been there, if this was to be considered a truly “professional” recession.
I also happen to strongly disagree with Sepinwell about “dumbing” Jon Snow here. Yes, he made an emotional move, that proved to be dumb. But that’s hardly new in Jon’s case. This guy is essentially a teenage emo. His decision making process is emotional. This is not going to change. The way a person makes decisions is a core personality trait. At most, he may learn to know when step back and get a second opinion. He has done this in the past, but well, it would have been seriously out of character for him to react any other way to his brother being shot.
Something I find, generally speaking, mindboggling, is what has happened to people’s expectations on storytelling. There was a time when having story moving forwards without reporting every conversation in between, and letting watchers or readers to fill at least some blancs was considered complexed storytelling, not taking audience for fools. I’ve seen especially Mad Men constantly praised for this. Now, with this series in particular, it seems to be labelled as “lazy storytelling”, regardless of whether some sort of ground for the development has been laid out there, before, and what happens afterwards.
Yet there are many instances where what’s been initially labelled as lazy storytelling and “making no sense what so ever” by viewers and critics of GOT, has been tied to a context later. Take, for instance, Dany’s pyromanic tendencies demostrated in Episodes 4 and 6. These kept viewers guessing on whether Dany would go full Aerys or not. And then, the suspense was taken away psychologically plausably and in a way that was guaranteed to make viewers happy by that “we are not our fathers” speech by Tyrion.
This leaves me fairly confident that the tension that’s been making viewers mad between Jon and Sansa will be dealt with similarly convincing manner in the next episode, and we’ll proceed to The End Game.
Jenny,
True, when I read that part of the interview I had completely forgot about the scenes we saw in trailer for next week 🙂 Now this reminds me that awhile back Kit said there’s one episode which is Jon’s story and we weren’t convinced he was referring to the battle but now it’s obvious he was. Which Kit confirms that we witnessed a “rebirth” of sorts (in behind the scenes on Youtube) regarding when he rises from the mosh pit.
Talvivaara,
This.
Glad to see the episode is a succesfull among most critics too.
Easly one of the best episodes ever. I have little doubt it will win the Emmy.
Talvivaara,
completely agreed.
And to be fair, Jon is a Warrior. He is not a strategic mastermind. He’s not Hannibal, guys. No Alexander, not even Napoleon.
Even if, come to think of it, all the above, and all great generals (which Jon isn’t) all lost battles – but they are not judged on the battles they lost, but the battles they shouldn’t have won.
As for Sansa, I too wonder why she hasn’t let Jon in the info concerning the Vale reinforcements. Did she know about them? Did she doubt that LF would come through with it? Did she fear that he would double-cross them again? Who knows. But I am pretty certain there will address the issue on Sunday’s episode. So let’s wait a little longer.
Sepinwal’s a jumped up, overwrought version of a typically fannish approach to film/ TV criticism, which revolves around character camps and assigning audience knowledge to characters that have no such knowledge. It’s boring, not particularly insightful, and generally unconcerned with the artistry of visual storytelling. How he persists is beyond me.
Which is a change they made on the show. In the books, Jon is a rather smart tactician who plans Stannis’ Northern campaign. On the show they dumbed down Jon to just a warrior while apparently even Sansa knows better about military tactics.
ygritte,
Yeah we followed him into battle and all what he was going through physically and emotionally.I’m sure kit was talking about this episode but I don’t think Jon’s story is done for this season
Clearly, a bunch of watchers hadn’t been given a bone to pick in 7 days, and have become obsessed with the Sansa/starving dogs “issue”.
Let me remind all of you of the rules..
1. Pick nit.
2. Try to explain nit yourself.
3. If nit can be explained by common sense in less than 10 seconds, TOSS NIT AWAY.
SerNoName,
Sansa doesn’t know anything about millitary tactics she said so herself,the only thing she knows is ramsay and how his mind works.Jon did have a plan obviously he came up with that with the help of Davos considering he is young and this is his first open pitch battle.Jon not trying to save his brother would have been the most out of character thing ever even if he knew it was a trap.Plenty of people would make that choice he is not dumb
If Jon is always going to be a teenage emo who is always going to make emotional moves then he is not fit to be any kind of a leader, responsible for the lives of other people. Are you saying that this is the message that the show is trying to convey? That people like Sansa and Dany are better leaders because Jon will always be an unreliable guy who can’t keep his emotions in check?
Is too much to ask for some character development for Jon after 5 seasons? The 17 year old version of the character in the books thinks more logically than the 30 year version on the show. The Jon in the books was more about brains not brawn. The show version is all brawn and no brains.
That’s the point of Sepinwall’s criticism of the episode. The episode was good spectacle but Jon’s idiocy made him totally unfit to be a leader. Honest question. Why does Jon deserve to be KITN? He has done nothing to deserve it.
I am not criticizing Jon’s decision to try and save Rickon. I am criticizing his dumb decision to go charge the Boltons after Rickon died.
SerNoName,
I don’t think he even wants to be a King.
I understand your criticism based on the novels, but this is not the novels. From what I gather, characters do diverge beetwen literature and tv, and Jon is just one of them. The way to go about it, imo, would be to just let go of the novels and try to adjust to show canon.
Dorian,
Best plan? The bloke probably lost just as many of his men to his own archers. Regularly loosing volleys into the brawl. The show made a point that Davos and the wildling archers did not fire aimlessly into the frey. This contributed to Ramsay’s downfall..
Sou,
Jon is very much the same in the novels. I read them 5 times.
Just finished watching the episode (twice) with a bad cnnection, so I might’ve missed some details when the picture went blurry… But overall, I liked the episode.
It wasn’t mind-blowing or surprising, but that might be because I’ve seen filming spoilers and speculation, so knew more or less what to expect. All in all, in stead of epicness, I’m left with a strange feeling of intimacy. Maybe that’s because by now protagonists in both the battles are so well-known and beloved to me? Also, the way the Battle of the Bastards was filmed and cut. Lots of smaller frames, close-ups. I liked that, it really gave a sense of the carnage and confusion. When you’re in the thick of it, it’s difficult to know what’s going on, you just hack at the next opponent, and the next, and the next…
I absolutely LOVED Jon’s “mhysa” moment. He struggles to the top from underneath all the dead bodies and packed, swaying men, camera pans up… What a nice echo and contrast to Dany’s “mhysa” moment in S3!
He was in trap either way. Going backwards would be cowardly and still possibly die and forward too. Besides he was full of rage, considering the guy just witnessed death of his brother, still don’t understand why is he there alive. He should be dead, part of him probably wanted to die. Which goes to Mel scene with him that he doesn’t want to be brought back alive, he did it himself by getting out of that mass of people. Ramsay lured him out with Rickon and he was their target and not Rickon. It worked perfectly.
Is Sansa going to lead them against Walkers? Doubtful. I don’t think Jon wants to be King but theme of his arc is to do his duty. Sam pushed him into LC spot, someone will likely push him towards KitN seat. I don’t think he feels like he deserves it as he’s a bastard, wants it but he’ll take it. He knows what’s coming against them. This is why Jon will be KitN but it’s just a title. Sansa could still have influence on politics and Jon listen to her more but nobody knows more about Walkers than Jon and Tormund. They saw them. They need to communicate better and hopefully we’ll see a bit of it in the next episode.
Mihnea,
Jon is different to some extent. Actually can be good at politics by arranging marriage Alys Karstark and Thenn, plan Stannis’ campaign and helping him. He manned castles, Iron Bank loan and bunch of other stuff that was cut from the show. Some of it fairly but others not so much. Jon is more of a action hero, warrior, decent leader on the show as he’s in the books half a the swordsman. He could be better. In the books Jon strikes me more of as a King material but he’ll probably be King either way.
Mihnea,
Wow, I couldn’t even read them once!
So for me it’s easy, I don’t have any previous approach on the characters, I take what I get from the show. I understand it might be difficult for people having loved the novel versions of the characters, but hey, no tv adaptation has ever been a 100% faithful one (well, maybe some BBC adaptation of the Penguin Classics).
Geralt of Rivia,
Jon didn’t do half of that stuff because he didn’t get the opportunity.
It’s not Jon who is that different, all characters are different to a certain degree simply because of the medium, it is his story.
He doesn’t get the time to count food or marriages…etc. Because he has to go to HH…etc. He’s more ”action-y” simply because of the medium. His ADWD story would simply not have worked on TV.
The only one I’ll give you is advising Stannis. But even this I don’t see Jon as being ”dumbed down”, for all we know the mountain clans may not even exist on the show. I see this as a difference in Jon’s atitude about Stannis and mendling in politics rather then him being ”dumbed down”
Sorry for any typos, I’m writing in a hurry.
Sou,
I read them 5 times, but I still have the same views as you on characters.
To be completely honest I think I read AFFC only 3 times.
OK, I’ll first get my couple of negative little nitpicks out of the way.
Jaime told Tyrion about the wildfire plot?? It’s kind of the point that Jaime has never told anybody, only Brienne in the bathtub. Oh well. Though this might be convenient for Jaime when Dany comes to Westeros, she might not fry him into a crisp immediately.
I never realised Stannis’s camp was that close to Winterfell. The show has never actually pinned it down, I’m thinking with my book-cap on. Fair enough.
Why didn’t the archers shoot Ramsay when he was loosing arrows at Jon??? I could understand southron knights abstaining, one-on-one fight, honour, yadda yadda, but those arches looked so ragged I thought they were wildlings, and they don’t buy into the southron honour thing, they’re more pragmatic. Oh well. They didn’t, because Ramsay was Jon’s to beat up and Sansa’s to kill in this show.
Oh, yeah, and where’s Ghost?!?! I thought he would rip Ramsay to shreds, but it wasn’t to be. And it’s of course fitting that Ramsay’s own dogs did it, but still.
That’s the negativity out of the way. Now for the positives.
Great CGI on the dragons! Dany riding Drogon was sooo much better than at Daznak’s last season. And all three of them flying around. I nearly cried!
Great CGI on WunWun, especially the last scene. He really was there, between Jon and Tormund. Last of his race, done heroic deeds in the battle, and then killed by that shit’s arrow. Heartbreak. 🙁
Speaking of heartbreak. Rickon. Sad, yes, but I wasn’t too fussed. Like Sansa, I knew he was dead meat. We only saw him in one scene since S3, so I wasn’t that invested in him. If the showrunners wanted that to be a real gut punch, they should’ve given Rickon a couple more scenes this season.
Cinematographic things I liked: The close-ups of loading and launching catapults at Meereen. The three dragons flying. Jon and Ramsay riding through their respective troops. It was so tense, and showed us the numbers and kinds of fighters each had. The picture of Jon, alone, on foot, facing a cavalry charge. The cavalry charges. Beautiful! The “mhysa” shot of Jon. Sansa confronting Ramsay in the kennels, face half-light, half-dark (remember Jaime last ep?).
There were even a couple of lol-moments. Tormund doesn’t understand southron military jargon. Mel’s advice to Jon (“Don’t lose.”), Dany, “All our dads were wankers” – well, with Mad Aerys Targaryen, Tywin Lannister and Balon Greyjoy, she’s got a point. Oh, and Tormund ripping the shield wall apart with his bare hands before being pulled to safety by his men. Tormund is one badass!
The yay! moments? Rhaegal and Viserion breaking out! Sansa to Ramsay, “You’re gonna die tomorrow. Sleep well.” Tormund biting off Smalljon Umber’s ear and killing him! Har! Take that, you wildling-hater! Knights of the Vale! (Except I’m worried about Littlefinger.) Bolton banners lowered, Stark banners raised! Sansa to Ramsay, “Your words will disappear, your house will disappear, your name will disappear, all memory of you will disappear.” Yay!
talvikorppi,
On the archers not killing Ramsey. They clearly look at Jon before and he doesn’t give them any indication that they should fire.
I think it’s clear they realized he wants Ramsey for himself.
So you’ve read those Brienne chapters 3 times?That’s impressive.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Not that impressive.
I always read books twice. It’s part of my reading experience. Even if I like it or not.
The 3rd re-read I did before ADWD….. Ah I was still young and hopeful back then….
Jon is around 21 in the show, not 30. He was 17 in S01E01.
Being emotional is not necesserily a bad thing. Jon wasn’t ready to sacrifice his little brother (to watch him dying without trying to save him) for the sake of his battle plan – which would have meant saving plenty of lives.
But if he stays cool and doesn’t rush to rescue Rickon – how would that have sit with the rest of the Northern people? Stannis did basically the same thing to Shireen: he sacrificed his beloved daughter to save his army – and it kinda worked, the weather improved, there is still no deep snow whatsoever. Yet half of his army abandoned him.
If Jon doesn’t fall for Ramsay’s plan, and stays back, that wouldn’t have been a good message towards his men who were watching.
And once he was down there with Rickon’s body, there was no way back, the archers would have hit him with arrows, and he wouldn’t been able to avoid them. The only way was to move forward and make some damage. I don’t think he expected to survive. Davos and Tormund could still have sticked to the plan, and lead the army towards the Boltons only afterwards. That would have meant Jon’s death of course, but Jon was OK with that. Davos wasn’t.
Maybe it will all come down to what Jon told Ramsay: Northern people will support the one, who is ready to die for them. Even if not a cold-headed strategist, Jon is definitely someone like that.
About Sansa:
I honestly tried to like her, and tried to understand the hype, but I just don’t see it. Even in this episode she didn’t add anything to the solution. She kept bitching about nobody wanting to hear her opinion – but she was right there in all the meetings, yet she didn’t say anything. Jon explicitly asked her, and she couldn’t give one piece of worthy advice. The “Ramsay definitely has a plan, avoid his trap” is nothing new. She didn’t have any better ideas, she couldn’t guess what Ramsay’s plan might be – nothing that Jon could have worked with. No wonder that nobody was that keen to hear her advice – she had none. The only thing she knew was that Ramsay is a psycho. And the Vale army, and she kept it to herself. I kind of understand why she did it, but it won’t make her a Badass Queen (only a stupid girl who still relies on the wrong people). Neither does waiting for LF and riding into Winterfell in a triumphant way, or letting the dogs on a half-dead, beten up Ramsay.
(and the reason they actually managed to take Winterfell was Wun Wun, the Vale wouldn’t have been able to siege the castle. So it’s more on Jon than Sansa or LF)
Ramsay challenged Jon one on one.Jon went with it.That simple.Those people where all fighters so no matter their background I’m sure they all understood what’s happening.
This episode still has 10/10 at IMDB. They made history with this one. Bravo!
Even with all the negative topics it still holds the 10/10 rating.It shows that people rating it 1/10 are not too many after all.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
They never are. I don’t even take seriously people who rate 1/10.
No GOT episode is below 6 at worst. My worst episode is around 7.5.
Only the music, directing, acting…etc. Would give a episode a 6/10.
talvikorppi,
Regarding archers ..
If we are going to nitpick about it then The real question you should ask is why didn’t Ramsey kill jon ( when he was having a moment with wun wun like dany had with drogon in pit ) instead put an arrow on wun wunwun
There’s nothing to be taken seriously there.I’ve rated so many movies,shows,episodes on IMDB.Never gave a 1/10.Sure,I probably never watched anything that has an average below 5 but still,there’s always some acting,directing,camera work or score to raise the rating a little.Rating something like Thrones with a 1/10 is just laughable.
Actually it’s a shame Wun Wun didn’t have one of those giant bows that were used in season 4. He could have just shoot Ramsay from where they were standing. It might have even saved Rickon. That would have been awesome.
Mihnea,
The worst part is you keep seeing those who keeps voting 1 will be the first to post and comment about episode ( see rank the episode in westeros..every week the same )
And on topic I can’t take some of the reviews seriously especially Sarah from guardian.. Does anyone really think that dany made the rule only for IB but not for her dothraki ..
Then again I guess part of the blame goes to writers as well for that and to their credit they have removed the rape and pillaging and enslaving part of her drogo’s speech but guess people have to be told explicitly..
Then again this is daenerys so even that wont be enough..
Aszusz,
A simple large wooden tree would have been enough..
When they are surrounded by Bolton’s I keep going back to hardhome where he used a wooden structure to beat the wights ..if that was in his hands then the block would have been easily broken
I went over this in another article.Ramsay challanged Jon one on one,that’s why he didn’t kill him before.He started to shoot at him after he raised the challenge.It was Ramsay’s last small chance to get away alive.Defeat Jon one on one.Of course that even if something like that would have happened no one would give Ramsay Winterfell,his army was gone,Ramsay was done.Best he could hope is they would let him go to the Wall or in exile or something.I do agree that they could have wrote it a little bit more clear for everyone but this is basically what happened in that scene.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Or he was paranoid.
The director/actor and writers all said it was supposed to feel like ”hitler in his bunker, in the last days of the war”
Ramsey at that moment was most likely in full denial.
schase,
Thanks and Yay! for ChrysK! There are so many good bits; love the pre-battle stare down. You know what else looks confused? Your face! with the Boom! from Tormund in the background. The faces match the text so well 😀
ArgonathofBraavos,
ArgonathofBraavos,
The only righteous stupidity is you who find another way to defend stupid things. Accept that this could have happened, but it was rather poor writing. Don’t tell me about righteous stupidity. They’re are simply continuing on from the way they butchered Arya’s plot. I’m not the only one who saw that has a blatant plot hole. I know some of you think D&D are next to Jesus which is fine. But when other finds faults with their work don’t call it stupidity. Some of you acting like they’re your kin.
Jon giving Stannis tactical advice shows his thorough knowledge of Northern castles and how to attack them. He explains to Stannis why attacking the Dreadfort would be the wrong move leading to Stannis losing men and why attacking Moat Cailin was better. He explains seige and numbers and strategy. It’s not about meddling in politics, it’s about showing Jon’s expertise in fighting in the North. After all he learned besides Robb, a 15 year prodigy who managed to give Tywin a hard time in the South.
We have never seen this Jon on the show. On the show he is, as someone mentioned, an emotional teen who attacks with no logic or thinking, leading his men to their deaths. He made stupid decisions, so that LF/Vale/Sansa could get their moment to shine and have the GOT version of the Rohirrim charge. Everything was written to lead up to that moment. Hence we get no strategical plan from Jon about how to tackle Ramsay other than to charge towards him on a horse.
Jon is basically portrayed as incompetent on the show. He does not deserve to lead anyone considering his recklessness and stupidity send a lot of good men to their deaths. I would support book Jon over Dany as King on the IT. On the show, I definitely support Dany over Jon.
The reason I am ranting so much is because I liked Jon’s character in the books for his thinking and that is completely missing on the show. I mean book Jon was doing experiments on dead men in ice cells to study about wights and was planning to build green houses to grow crops! He was smart and planned ahead.
It’s like Ramsays’s 20 good men defeating master general Stannis all over again. It’s all about getting to certain plot points: in this case LF/Vale to the rescue. Who cares about characterization.
SerNoName,
He’s like 21-22 on the show.
Throughout his storyline, Jon has regretted not being able to protect his family because of his NW vows. He wanted to go south to avenge Ned and help Robb, but he couldn’t. He couldn’t help his other siblings because of his vows. Now he finally sees a chance to try and help his brother, so of course he’ll take it. He’d be viewed as an asshole and a coward if he didn’t care. In contrast, Stannis burned his daughter and lost half his army. Jon is willing to give his life for others and that’s what makes people follow him.
Can it be viewed as foolish? Yes.
Are his actions understandable? Yes. Who wouldn’t protect their brother (who happens to be the rightful heir to Winterfell, since Bran is missing).
He charged forward because he knew it was a trap and had little choice. Ramsay had already asked his archers to shoot. Going backwards would have been cowardly. A user above explained this perfectly.
The cavalry and wildlings didn’t have to charge to protect him. Tormund knew it too. But Davos still told them to “follow your commander” and they listened. Because Jon has secured the loyalty of the people fighting for him. Most of those people used to be his enemies a couple of seasons ago, but now they are fighting alongside him. Like it or not, people see something in him. “Power resides where people believe it resides.”
We had both Tormund and Davos speak to others about Jon’s merits in seasons 5 and 6. There’s actually a lot of power in others speaking about your merits and you not having to say anything or proclaim you’re king of whatever. As Tywin said: “A man who must say I am the king, is no true king.”
The people who don’t want power are usually the ones who end up getting said power because others believe they are the right ones for the job. Jon didn’t want to be Lord Commander, but people chose him. Jon doesn’t want to be KITN, but if others push him in the position, he won’t be able to refuse.
SerNoName,
I disagree. And I fully expect the characters in-universe to have the same reaction I had and not yours.
Just stop it. Take with other people, not me.
Beer Island,
Jesus, picking holes.
Here’s a thought, one of the others who was still there, told her what ramsey said.
Not everything has to be done on screen, you can use a bit of logic occasionally..
Some more thoughts on the episode.
Meereen. Grey Worm finally uses his dagger that was so prominently shown in earlier episodes when he disagreed with Tyrion. The Dothraki attack was a bit underwhelming. Daario? Blink and you’ll miss him. Loved Yara and Theon in Meereen. Yara flirted with Dany! And she didn’t mind! And it almost sounded like Dany might be ready to take ships to Westeros! Praise all the gods, old and new, red and drowned!
Melisandre. Her meeting with Jon. Tries to interpret the flames the best she can but she didn’t sound too confident. She doesn’t mention TPTWP or any of that. When Jon queries about her god and his actions, Mel replies he’s the only god we’ve got… Cue Lord of Light music and then Davos finding Shireen’s 🙁 pyre. A reminder that Rhllor might not be a very benevolent god, or rather, Rhllor’s followers.
Later, after the battle Mel watches Bolton banners lowered and Stark banners raised. Her vision. So she was right. She seems a lot more confident here. Maybe trouble to come from Mel and her religion in the future?
Ramsay. Not-so-subtly contrasted with Jon and his captains. Jon leads from the front, Ramsay from the back. Davos stays the Stark arrows because own men are in the melee now, Ramsay keeps on raining arrows, own men be damned. In the books, Jaime voices most knights’ view of using bows&arrows: cowardly and dishonourable. Real men fight hands on with a sword. I’m not sure I agree with that sentiment – bows & arrows are a good weapon – but that’s the “code” for highborn in Westeros (btw, Theon’s favourite weapon was bow & arrows…) And, of course, the final “duel” between Jon and Ramsay is him loosing arrows at Jon at close quarters. Yeah, we get it, Jon’s a better man than Ramsay.
Jon and Sansa. We see a more cruel/brutal side to both of them. I don’t mind what Jon did during the battle, it’s war, but he kept beating Ramsay after he was down and seemingly unconscious. And he let Sansa do what she will with Ramsay. Condoned an extremely brutal “execution”. Sansa turned to go but then stayed to watch that little bit longer as Ramsay was savaged by his dogs. And when she walked away, she smiled. What would Ned think of these two? He was honourable, harsh but fair, and didn’t enjoy executions or killing his enemies.
I don’t mind Ramsay meeting a gruesom, brutal end, loved it, in fact, but it also gave some food for thought.
OK, that’s my immediate thoughts off my chest, now I’ll go and see what everybody else thought and is talking about. 🙂
(I hate always being late to the party because of where I live, and this week and next I’ll even be more in the dark because of a bad connection = at times blurry picture and scratchy sound 🙁 )
talvikorppi,
Umm… this is the guy who killed their brother right in front of Jon and raped Sansa. I don’t think you can blame Jon for being angry and Sansa for wanting to see him suffer.
I’m still laughing at Ramsay sending his entire cavalry and infantry to die only to kill 2000 Wildlings lmao.
I’m also still laughing at Smalljon running to Ramsay because he was scared of 2000 Wildlings, when 100k of them attacked the Wall and almost got through in season 4.
These must have been no ordinary 2000 Wildlings…..
….but were in fact….
2000 good Wildlings.
P.S.: Any news on Lord Karstark’s whereabouts?
Ser Gerold Dayne,
I really don’t care I was jusk joking ..
But it does amuses me that things like this are overblown and gets complained while its been neglected in other storylines ..
For me jon and wun wun was very similar to dany and drogon in the pit .
For me jorah finding the ring and davos finding the ring is similar.
While everyone liked to complain that tyrion didn’t see the fleet arriving ..what about vale army staying in most callin for that long ..
I do believe that maybe iam not seeing the compliants because sometimes I gloss over comments ..like i said i dont care about any of this ..but I do find the selective bias interesting in a funny way..
Could be he was poisoned by his enemies.
Can anyone direct me to any place you know which have every single screencap of the episode
Thank you ..
Flayed Potatoes,
Umber couldn’t have known exactly how many of the Wildlings were battle ready.
He couldn’t have known Jon saved mostly women, children and old people.
SerNoName,
And show dany is better than book dany lol..
I can give and match every things you said jon did that showed him as leader and smart with similar things that dany in the AdWD as well and how much the show has missed and made tyrion do those things ..
Aszusz,
Sansa gave two bits of extremely important advice: don’t attack yet because you don’t have enough men, and don’t do what Ramsay wants you to do, because he’s a master manipulator. Had Jon heeded this advice, the near-Slaughter outside Winterfell may have happened differently. That said, I do believe Sansa should have mentioned her LF gambit. But I accept that she’s a teenager with serious trust issues (due to what Joffrey, LF and Ramsay did to her), and that she simply didn’t think Jon would respond favorably to the option.
Mihnea,
Jon (season 6, episode 7): The Boltons, the Umbers, the Karstarks…they know you’re here. They know that more than half of you are women and children.
Last Hearth is also close to the Gift.
Flayed Potatoes,
Well to be fair to karstark 100k was on other side of the wall
And this 2000 is on their side of the wall.
Another thought that kept hitting me watching the battle was how much of this destruction of wildlings numbers and north could have been saved if the wildlings went with stannis to take winterfell.
Beer Island,
If my defense is 100% logical (all of Sansa’s allies heard Ramsay speak of the starved dogs, and so they could easily convey that information to her), how is it stupid? Are you contending that good writing has to spell everything out, and remove all inference? By your standard, the series would have spent six seasons with Ned and his family marching down to King’s Landing with Robert Baratheon. Clearly, Sansa learned of Ramsay’s comment about the dogs. Case closed.
I think that was fairly obvious. Wun Wun was more dangerous in the immediate moment, or so Ramsay thought, he might not have been aware how bad Wun Wun’s injuries were.
Hey, I hope you were happy with Dany riding Drogon and seemingly also controlling Rhaegal and Viserion! You’ve been saying this for ages! 😀 I admit, I got a lump in my throat when the three dragons were flying together.
To others who’ve commented on the archers, thanks for your input. As I said, I could understand it if the archers were southrons (one-on-one, honour, yadda yadda), it seemed to me they were wildlings and I wasn’t sure wildlings would think that way. Maybe they do, I’m OK with that, and great point about a look passing between them and Jon. I blame my blurry picture for missing it.
It was just a moment that had me a bit taken out of the immersion during watching, nothing serious, and it didn’t “ruin” this episode for me. 😀
I think the show is great but it isn’t perfect, and I like to point out things that stuck out for me. Other people have other issues, and we’re here to discuss them and hopefully everybody will learn something and get new perspectives and ideas. I think WotW is a great place because it’s mostly very friendly and respectful.
dragonbringer,
The funny thing is that the Umbers could have probably taken them down on their own or with any other neighboring house before Jon even assembled them for battle. Attacking them by surprise would have worked.
Interesting thought, but would the Wildlings have followed Stannis if he had burned his daughter alive like he did Mance? Based on Hardhome, there was some resentment about Stannis burning their leader.
Flayed Potatoes,
Ops, missed that.
Anyway judging by Ramsey’s numbers. 6000. I think it’s fair to say Umber didn’t had more then 1000-1500 at most, they fought much longer for Robb then the Karstarks did, still less then the Wildlings.
They are used with raids and such, not 2000 Wildlings who are already south of the Wall.
Ravyn,
I thought that the minute I saw it. So good.
If that’s all what Jon is going to be, a warrior who swings swords, that would be a bit disappointing don’t you think? Besides, I think it’s a bit unfair to say that he is a bad general/ mastermind. He did have a plan, even with inferior resources, the problem was Ramsay forced him to abandon it by using the one person that he cared about.
Besides, in the books, Jon pretty much lays down Stannis’ entire northern campaign for him, showing he has been schooled in strategic thinking as well. I still hope some part of this makes it into the show at some time in future, lol.
Lars,
Little finger showing up with the vale was not ex-machine
I hate this word now! Use it correctly people.
Its been set up since episode 4. LF with Robin, LF with Sansa episode 5, and Sansa WRITING A LETTER TO LF in episode 7 LOL
Maybe Ramsay had him lead the Bolton allies’ cavalry charge and he was killed by Bolton arrows from the back?
Dee Stark,
Now you just need to learn what ”plot-hole” is and be annoyed by people using it in the wrong situations.
Mihnea,
Ramsay had 5000 according to Sansa (before he faced Stannis). Let’s say he lost 1000 to Stannis (probably less, but let’s go with a round number). That would mean 2000 soldiers from the Umbers and Karstarks, assuming the Karstarks and Umbers didn’t send all their men.
The numbers really don’t add up imo, since Karstark should have more men because Robb lost a large bulk of his army when he beheaded Karstark Senior. It’s possible they left some behind to guard Last Hearth/Karhold.
And with an organized formation and the element of surprise, the Umbers shouldn’t have had a really difficult time.
Flayed Potatoes,
I disagree. Umber himself said they couldn’t do it alone. I do not see the need to question him.
Ser Gerold Dayne,
Ramsay strikes again.
talvikorppi,
Actually this makes the most sense. Umber had the infantry and Ramsay had the archers and the shields.
It won’t stop me from asking 😛
It’s been set up since season 5 to be fair.LF made it clear even to Cersei.So it’s been set up for a long time.
ArgonathofBraavos,
I agree with this!!
Flayed Potatoes,
Yes they could have but they didn’t care enough..
I still can’t believe they can do what they did to rickon osha and shaggy dog..
Which only makes me wondee how will rickon end up dead in TWOW .
Iam assuming that if wildlings went with stannis …he wouldn’t have the need to burn shireen because he would have marched earlier and sooner than he did ..
Gotfan,
I think they were just the horn blasts to signify the commencement/march to battlefield
Sou,
I demand 3 hour episodes so things can be spelt out.
dragonbringer,
It is one thing to tell people they cannot do what they’ve done all their lives, and their fathers have done and their father’s fathers … It’s another for them to actually do it. Only time will tell.
I just want to comment to that, that I know A LOT of casual viewers that don’t catch all the foreshadowing after first or second watch. Heck, its soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo obvious Cersei is going to burn shit down, HOW MANY times have they foreshadowed that, and my cousins and friends that I talk to, don’t see it all.
Same with Ollie last year, these same viewers didn’t even catch that he would do something like that, when it was SO SO obvious. The foreshadowing isn’t always caught by everyone. We here are just obsessive about every single detail we see.
talvikorppi,
Oh iam happy and I must have watched that scene alone ten times ..am happy that CGI was spot on with this one. .
There was two particular shots she on drogon which is very much the same shot of argon on balerion we see in TWOIaf ..only thing missing was saddle and armor ..
I still think they need to just show how much control she has them and explain why she has and what that means in the grand scheme of things ..
I just hope they give some human moments and good dialogues to dany.. expecting it in next episode ..
That said I will be fully happy when next season ends my theory still stands assuming that she and her dragons will be meeting bran and jon by the time next season ends
I don’t blame them, though I think Jon was more than just angry, he was in a red mist, brutal, and so was Sansa, without the red mist but with a cool calculation, which is even more chilling.
Hey, I cheered when it was happening. Only afterwards I paused for thought. Those scenes just showed that the Starks aren’t somehow more noble and honourable than everybody else. They showed that we, the viewers, aren’t somehow more noble and honourable than everybody else. That was the thought that came to me. You might think otherwise, and that’s fine. For me, the most important thing to take from those scenes wasn’t just Ramsay’s brutal death (yay!) but also this “greyness” in Jon and Sansa, and me, a viewer, and I like it.
mau,
I know!! I am so happy, after 50,000 plus votes its still holding the 10/10 score…. and this episode now has the most votes out of all of them 🙂
Phenomenal! It makes me so happy to see this reception, because they truly truly deserve it.
dragonbringer,
He probably thought Jon would honor his word of one on one fight and fight him. Or simply it’s a freaking giant. Maybe even to taunt Jon. Who knows with his psycho mind.
Jon and Wun Wun similiar to Daeny and Drogon? In which way because no matter how I try to spin it. It’s totally different. Bond, situation everything. I think what is similiar is Jon and Daeny Mhysa moment. When she was in Yunkai and Jon managed to crawl out out of this huge amount of people.
Jorah and Davos yeah. It seems similiar and do wonder what will happen there. Jon is not going to be happy but he needs her and all the help he can get in the war against walkers but she helped murder little girl. Stannis gave the order but she plant the seed.
Flayed Potatoes,
Dead in a ditch somewhere.
Dee Stark,
What’s your favourite moment from the episode?
Dee Stark,
I am so proud of you.Now we have to fight this good fight lol:
In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story’s plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
Mihnea,
Hahaha I refuse!! 😛
Anyway the season is almost over and I am only here in the offseason for the fun stuff such as the awards and what not.
And I probably wont be back for next season.
But I got “ex-machina” mastered! hahaha
Laura,
Yes that part about needing to foreshadow I didn’t like and what’s madeworse is that its comes at The expense of dany ..
I can never see dany saying I will crucify all the masters but there you have it and all of it was for to tyrion to give that foreshadowing and mention about her father ..
I wish we can move past Aerys but I guess it won’t happen..
What surprised me more is that dany didn’t come up with getting the masters ships on her own ..she already knew she wanted ships and it would have been the first thought for her while seeing them ..
Darkrobin,
Yes but the thing is the reviewer saying dany didn’t tell the same to dothraki like she did with yara ..
As for the time will tell..
for IB of they break the promise i think tyrion said the best in this episode ” Tell them what happens when Daenerys Stormborn comes with her dragons ” and that message alone should be enough ..
Dothraki I never worried about them raping and enslaving because she is their khalleesi and TSWMTW and the show also said how they view her as a God and since she has made everyone her bloodrider they have to do what their blood of my blood says
Geralt of Rivia,
Omg that’s so difficult.
Top moment was when Jon was drowning in the pile of bodies and they were showing us what he sees from his perspective, and then he emerges and takes a breath that sounds just like the one he took when he was reborn. I really thought he was going to die 🙁
Its tied with Dany on drogon and the two other dragons flying by her side. I got chills.
So closely under it is when Jon went after Ramsay and then when Ramsay challenges him he storms at him with the shield as the arrows were coming and beats the shit out of him with so so so so so much anger and emotion.
What about you?!?
How do you think it will go down and when do you expect it will happen?
I expected them to clash over ideas but Jon is not going to be in power of demanding rather than pleading for help. She’s got all the triumphs. Dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied, Second Sons, Greyjoys, Dorne and Tyrells possibly. Varys might be securing her alliance with Dorne and Lady Olenna. Especially after shit will go down in KL. Jon and Sansa got Vale well LF is there, few thousand Notherners and couple of Wildlings. Maybe Brotherhood could join them.
Jenny,
Yes lets fight together.
Haha thank you for that! Ill keep then in mind when I see it being used.
A CPA by day, and vocabulary cop by night
I don’t see how Jon could have NOT charged forward after Ramsay killed Rickon. Ramsay had set a trap. The arrows were flying. Jon either had to charge forward or backward to avoid getting hit. He chose forward because he’s not a coward.
Geralt of Rivia,
You are right we can’t know what’s in his mind I was just playing if we are going to nitpick I think its best to do with why jon was not shot..
In daznak dany had a moment with drogon after she pulled that spear ..and suddenly everyone was complaininh why no one was throwing a spear at dany that time ..
And I think jon and wun win have the same moment inside winterfell ..
I actually think Mel is really hurt by what happened to not only shireen and you can see she regrets it and learned from it and I think punishing her now for that will be sad..
But I look forward to what happens and how they handle it .
I don’t see them having her killed or banished ..but let’s see
Dee Stark,
Same, will try keeping away in the off-season. I don’t want any spoilers this time.
Ohh, that would be sad, it wouldn’t be the same without you here. 🙁
Dee Stark,
Very close to mine. I love Daeny and Yara conversation and Tyrion and Theon. Nice to see two ladies meet but I wonder if Greyjoys will truly keep to be peaceful or backstab Daeny. It’s all they know, raiding, raping and reaving. This is their nature, they can’t be farmers.
Dee Stark,
For me, it’s the two Jon scenes you mentioned and Sansa’s final face-off with Ramsay.
This is a TV show. They don’t need to show and explain Dany’s control of the dragons. I buy it, in the show, and I’m a fan, not a casual watcher. It might be different in the books but they’re the books.
I agree, I hope Dany will get some good dialogue in the next episode – though hers with Yara wasn’t too bad this episode. I just want her to get her arse over to Westeros, by old gods and the new! Then I can start cheering for her as I did in S1. And the stakes are higher now, what with the White Walker threat from the north and everything.
What’s your theory about Dany, Jon, Bran and dragons? I don’t really have a theory, just vague ideas that Jon might fly a dragon (assuming R+L=J) and Bran (“You will fly” – but he has no Targ blod, so maybe warg? Or maybe flying is just warging ravens etc.)
This is what makes Jon an interesting and relatable character. He doesn’t seek power and yet others give him the power. This may be his story. He will rise up (LC, KITN??, Ko7K????) not by aiming for these “positions” directly but because people will get behind him and push him up.
ArgonathofBraavos,
She could have said: “I heard you dind’t feed your dogs for seven days.”
Then there would be no discussion.
Jenny,
Dee Stark,
You guys are just fighting a battle that you will never win..
Like i said last week better to ignore those comments
ArgonathofBraavos,
It’s called nitpicking for a reason.
talvikorppi,
I’m a preaty hardcore fan.
But agree with you about Dragon taming. I would rather them keep it as a bond, and Drogon feeling that she is ready…etc.
Actually her wiping Drogon ranks very high as one of my most disliked moment in the books. Never liked it, never will.
And I say this as a huge Dany fan.
Mihnea,
I will probably still visit for Oz’s recaps (and read some news) because I love them! So we would always catch up there and compare our thoughts and ideas!!!!!
I used to do that before were I was lurking and only participating in Oz’s recaps and I just felt so much happier!
They could’t. Umbers, Karstarks and the Boltons together had only 6 000 men
ghost of winterfell,
OH YES!!!!! SANSA’s final moment. So many to chose from it was so harddddddddddddddd.
Geralt of Rivia,
Ah, I really don’t think so. They cannot afford to do such a thing if they want to beat Euron.
talvikorppi,
I would love this season to end with Dany and co. sailing for Westeros! It’s been a long time coming. It’s about time she joins the fray (as LF would put it). 🙂
Mihnea,
Preaty should be spelt Pretty
I know you use that word a lot so just correcting your spelling 🙂
Dee Stark,
Hope you will stay! Even if only in the unsullied thread.
Agree though…. I joined forums only around mid S4. Not to say though that there where not good moments here. Honestly the good ones far outshine and outnumber the bad ones.
I will just take a more relaxed approach on my comments though. More careful who I enter a discussion with.
dragonbringer,
The weather was a huge obstacle.
I don’t see Rickon coming out alive from an island with cannibals. But I’m curious as well.
ArgonathofBraavos,
Stop your nonsensical explanation. The first time I watched the episode I missed it. Not every small issue becomes the instrument of someone’s death, main character non the less. On second watch, I picked up on she saying, you said yourself you haven’t fed them in 7 days. Then its, hold up wait…..she wasn’t there. She said that in first person as if she heard it from his mouth. Hence gripe. The battle was a 10 their writing 3-5. Its as simple as that. And its been closed, except for those who are butt hurt when it’s pointed out, whenever it is.
Dee Stark,
This word really gave me trouble for some times. Wasn’t sure how the correct way to spell it is!!
Thanks!
Beer Island,
Yes all those who disagree with you are ”butt hurt”
How mature……
Ahhh. This could be a great headstone epitaph for him. Not that I’d want him to die. No. Not ever.
Sam,
Fear not, the Lord of Light watches over him.
That could work, too! 🙂
Geralt of Rivia,
I really don’t have an idea..we have to see what jon and sansa going to decide to do next are they going to stay in WF and prepare or march to RR
But I know one thing no one needs to beg for her help for fighting WW .If she learns about them she will be going ..
I do think Sam will be playing a role with getting the news to dany and eventually tell about jon and there is tyrion also to tell about jon..
And we might actually see bran learning about dany and her dragons and inform jon about dany and how they need her help and go for her .
The thing that mostly interested me was dany saying other can ask for their independence as well ..if she is interested in hearing them then all the theories about she not hearing northern lords is blown out of the window.
talvikorppi,
Yeah I understand that ..but I do believe that dany and her control over three dragons related to the prophecy ..so I expect that needs to be explored..
I just want them to explain the prophecies and give an answer not leave it in the show.
I think if others ride dragons in the books then they will ride in the show as well ..
I do believe in completely about no one riding or controlling them other than dany however my first belief was it will be tyrion and jon ..so I still have my doubts and expect I may go wrong .
And things like bran losing summer makes me think he may get one ..
But I guess at the end of the next seaosn we will know for sure ..
I loved yara and dany and tyrion and theon conversation I expect they keep doing the same level of writing in coming scenes as well and with dany coming to westeros..i expect things to become better and better for her storyline and dialogues..
Mihnea,
This is the very first forum I joined and I just started this season (though I’ve been visiting this site for show news way before). I have to say, I’ve enjoyed the discussions here in general even though sometimes some posts can be depressing. After a while, I’ve learned to just ignore and/or disagree silently. LOL. I’m still glad I tried this out this season!
Sam,
Yeah. After I did this it felt much better.
Good to see you enjoyed it!
Beer Island,
Sansa, “Jon, where is he?”
Jon: “He’s in the kennel with his dogs. He said he hasn’t fed them in 7 days.”
That or any other variations of that conversation easily happened off-screen. We do not need to see every single conversation for us to get from A to B.
dragonbringer,
Based on the preview, it looks like Dany and Tyrion will have a great conversation next episode! Their scenes together have been great. Yey! They’re 2 of my non-Stark faves.
Mihnea,
I agree. 🙂
Mihnea,
I blame this on GRRm and POV structure of the books ..
GRRm wanting to not write a general fantasy book and wants the reader to keep having doubts about this..
We could have simply had dragons appear whenever they sense their rider in danger ..
But that falls under LOTR and not with ASOIaf…
So he goes on to plant the doubts like sumfyre returned to dragonstone because it’s his birth place or when drogon comes ibecause of blood ..
While we all know they came for their riders
You can clearly see the bond in books as well not only with drogon but with other two dragons as well..
I don’t like the whip part but iam more than happy at the fact it used as an symbol to show that dany has got control of drogon when she rides himw without the whip and he goes in the direction she wants in the last chapter.
Does anyone think that Cersei is going to find out that the Starks are back in Winterfell next episode?
Miss Stark,
Events next week might be to close to this for her to find out.
I do think she and Jaime will find out though. If not now then next season.
Mihnea,
I would LOVE to see her reaction.
Dee Stark,
Euron. He’s got to have some idea or trumph because his big you know what is not gonna enough against Daeny. I like the idea of horn or something. Euron seems to me as the greatest threat to Daeny outside of walkers. Lannisters are done and Cersei will go batshit crazy.
schase,
Sansa said “No one can protect me” – foreshadowing Arya coming back as the true protector ???
dragonbringer,
Yeah her riding in the last chapter was much better.
We just have to disagree on the whip part. I don’t think it helped Dany’s character at all.
Agree with the rest though. Although even Drogon appearing is ”explained’ by Selmy, who, even he just guesses about the blood.. He clearly arrives when Dany decides to drop the ”bunny ears”. Just as he happens to fly around when she sees the Dothraki.
Bonding plays a huge part. But the whip just annoys me to no end…
Dee Stark,
Mihnea,
This makes me sad..
If you ask me the offseason is when the site and discussions are most interesting rather than during the season time..
So I hope to see you two guys often.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yeah if he had marched sooner then he wouldnt have caught amidst that weather ..
I do believe he makes its out of that island because then davos will be goner as well and not make it out of the island.
Geralt of Rivia,
He is, I agree!
dragonbringer,
I will be here for awards, interviews….etc.
Just not spoiler stuff.
Offseason is definitely more pleasant.
Thank you 🙂
I don’t look at spoilers, so I will be around for the non spoilery stuff.
Holy shit – I’m not sure why no one is paying attention to this – great catch. Those definitely sound like 3 Castle Black horn blasts.
Or maybe I just missed it in the discussion about it up-thread?
Sam,
Yeah looking forward to it and the scene with daario as well.
Dany need more emotional scenes and grounded scenes where she shows her compassion and self doubts .
I guess thats what we will be seeing next episode..
Mihnea,
You understood me wrong about whip. .
I don’t like the whip in pit chapter but I liked that she dropped whip and controlled dragon without it in the last chapter …kind of like showing how she is now having the full control ..
Exactly I always find it amusing while people used barristan’s argument while completely ignoring what’s happening in the chapter …
dragonbringer,
Oh, then we agree.
Mihnea,
Dee Stark,
Ah OK that makes me happy ..look forward to those discussions once season is over .
dragonbringer,
Yeah he’s our only POV on the island, so he has to make it alive and tell the characters what happened.
It was an ok battle, but Hardhome was better imho. I think the greatest disappointment was how predictably it ended. In that sense, it would have been much greater if Jon was actually winning the battle with a smaller force (and doing more sword magic than just turning around and almost getting crushed), about to take WF and then Sansa shows up an kill steals, for the Vale so to speak.
Flayed Potatoes,
Hmm yes he is one of my picks to survive the series ..
I just cant wait to see how it happens in the books..
Just a flying visit….Ozzy Man has done his review. Had me crying with laughter!!! ????
It’s a must watch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EAnfoYmdkYU&feature=youtu.be
Dee Stark,
Absolutely correct!
Did you guys already discuss the ramification of Jon saying he wants to bury Rickon in the Crypts of Winterfell, next to his father?
I now think this theory about how Jon will find out the truth about his true parentage is almost a given.
http://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/Game-Thrones-Jon-Snow-Winterfell-Crypt-Theory-41389937
Other than the possibility of Cersi burning Kings Landing to the ground – I’m hoping episode 10 is all about Jon – Tower of Joy, Winterfell Crypts, etc.
VegoDread,
All of sudden Jon starts to look around and find clues? That’s cheap. Someone needs to tell him rather than playing Sherlock Holmes. Besides it would be amateurish from Ned to bury any evidence under her crypt or tomb. He tore down TOJ or at least I think so.
Geralt of Rivia,
He did tore down and buried those who are dead using those stones .
Agree with you about the crypt i always thought ned hiding a wedding cloak or dragon egg or harp as wishful thinking..
But i do expect we will see jon having a moment to look at lyanna and think about her.
Sansa and Jon has a conversation , about how LF got involved. Which leads to the scene where he kisses her on the forehead. She tells him stuff, we don’t get to hear. Leading him to be in the Godswood while Sansa and LF are talking. LF gets enraged when she don’t want him, talking about stuff he already told her. I started wars, killed people etc. Jon hears everything comes out of hiding. It certainly won’t happen, since has there are no more hidden clues and theory crafting on the show. But I still think LF is toast
dragonbringer,
Thanks for clarification. Whether in season finale or next season he’ll go into crypts. It’s just too good of opportunity to pass on by. He’ll go and visit Ned and one sad look at Lyanna’s statue is enough. If the spoilres are true, they handle it in a more subtle way. I just wish we can get this over with and move on.
Harp and wedding cloak wouldn’t prove anything. Dragon egg is wishful thinking like Jon having Drogon as his dragon after he kills Daeny. One nonsense theory by someone on westero.org. It might just be only Jon or Daeny needs to know. Others don’t matter as it affects Jon and Daeny will be in position of power, if she believes others will too or respect it. Besides she’s a Targaryen.
SerNoName
While its true that some of Jon’s skills and attributes are watered down in the show, you cannot say D&D are doing injustice to the character. Not when D&D have done Jon a service by removing some of his eyebrow raising decisions from the books.
Like for example how he starts becoming cold and distant with Sam, Pyp et al after becoming Lord Commander; Or him sending away Aemon Targeryan to die in the sea in his old age; How about him ordering ( and then threatening when she refuses ) Gilly to give up her babe and take Mance’s son instead?
While all of these actions were done with good intentions, they can ultimately be classified into ‘cold-hearted’ category. I don’t know about you but I get the feeling IF these were shown in the show, the Jon Snow fanbase might not be as huge as it currently is.
If you think Jon Snow is getting the short end of the stick by D&D, try being a Jaime fan!
Beer Island,
You might be right. Because in trailer for this season LF turns around like he saw someone approaching. People speculate about certain scenario, In the preview for this episode he walks towards Sansa sitting in front of Weirwood tree. So either we have two scenes, one and the part with Jon is not there and only Sansa and LF.
Dee Stark,
Are we picking favorite moments?
Because yes! that darker “Mhysa” moment with Jon being buried/reborn AND when Jon finally knocks Ramsay down and does what I’ve been wanting to do for years. 🙂
Also Tormund and Davos conversation about kings
Actually that long shot of Jon going through the battle was fairly epic
Tormund using his teeth in battle–just like Brienne did with the Hound btw 🙂
And that scene where Jon is standing on the mountain of bodies with Wun Wun and Tormund-Tormund looks at him and they start running after Ramsay. *Friendship*
And pretty much everything in Mereen, which is unusual for me. 🙂
VegoDread,
Now would be the perfect time for a visit from Ned’s buddy, Jojen’s dad 🙂
Whipping. 🙂 I know you don’t mind people correcting the rare English spelling/grammar errors you do.
Yeah, I agree. Book!Dany made Drogon submit to her will by whipping him with a slaver’s nasty, metal, clawed cat’o’nine tails. And she didn’t really tame him, just enough for her to mount him and get hell out of dodge from Daznak’s. Later, he wouldn’t do what she wanted (fly her back to Meereen). That’s where we are in the books.
I like how the show has just emphasized the bond, and it’s good enough for me. I don’t need to know the details, the whys and wherefores. Dany is clearly somehow magical in the show. She has dragons. They do her bidding once she embraces her true self, her heritage and who she is. Fire and blood, a dragonlord. None of this dilly-dallying and compromises in Meereen.
Geralt of Rivia,
If you ask me we should get ToJ vision and then cut to jon at crypts ..
That will be nice way of doing it..
I do hope we can move on from the reveal and don’t leave it as an cliffhanger..
Exactly it matters only for both of them
I love that guy 🙂
Halfman,
OMG I love this guy! So funny!!
Beer Island,
It’s about continuation. The writers are writing hundreds and hundreds of screen pages in a very short amount of time. To those who’ve never done it, screenwriting is an incredibly time consuming endeavor, the more time you have the better it will be because you’ll have time to go back several times and catch the small things. Small things like Sansa saying something she didn’t hear first hand, are easy to miss when you are writing. And are easy to miss when you are re-reading your work. Why? Because you spend so many days/so many hours in the day writing something that there comes a time when you don’t want to look at it anymore. That you can’t for your life see how you can improve it anymore. This is when having the luxury of time off can help, say a month or so, because it allows you to go back to the written pages and see some of the things you’ve missed. But it seems to me the GOT production team don’t have that. The show is too big and too demanding. And while there will always be people who find anything and everything to criticize, sometimes rightly so I suppose, small things like this Sansa thing don’t really take away from the whole effort or diminish the work that David and Dan and their whole production team have done in six years and counting.
Did you read the article? I swear to God, some of you guys are so boring with your condescending and dismissive attitudes.
I never heard this theory until I read it this morning – I only shared it as a possibility. Whoever originated this theory, should be applauded for the tireless research it took to pull it together.
Pray tell, why not enlighten us with your thoughts on how Jon finds out – I’m sure it’s brilliant and full of facts. Please make sure to include the paragraph and chapters from the books and the season and episode from the show where we can find out how you came to your idea.
This site used to be such a fun place to hang out and decompress from the stresses of day-to-day life and talk shit. Unfortunately, it has turned into a bitch fest and a place where bullies have taken over and relish insulting, demeaning, belittling and denigrating folks who just want to chill and relax.
It’s unfortunate!!!
In the nicest way possible, I’d like to remind you that the show does not have “a dragon has three heads” prophecy. So it does not need explaining.
Also, in the books, we, readers, are time and again reminded that prophecies are a wank. Unreliable and subject to subjective interpretations and/or self-fullfilment (Hello, Cersei!) Maester Aemon and Rhaegar thought Rhaegar was TPTWP, then they thought it was Rhaegar’s son Aegon… You get my drift? Prophecies are opaque, they’re not uncontrovertible, simple truths.
Three heads of a dragon, to me, clearly points to three different people. Heads, as in, minds. I take it as metaphorical rather than simply literal (= 3 actual dragon lizards). You probably disagree with this view, and that’s fine. We both agree that it’s great that all three are now free and flying about.
Meh, its pretty dumb. They loved her when they were small, become brattish and out of control after growing a bit (teenage syndrome in dragons maybe, lol), then suddenly start obeying and following her once again for plot convenience.
Even Ash and Charizard’s story was better written(for those familiar with pokemon).
The ‘bond’ reason doesn’t do it for me. Does it explain how Tyrion-a complete stranger- was able to waltz in and have a friendly conversation with them?
dragonbringer,
From what I heard it’s not so much as cliffhanger but still not 100% clear for everyone.
VegoDread,
Oh sorry. I don’t want it come out as offensive. My apologies but I’m allergic to Jon finds out harp, dragon egg, wedding cloak in the crypts.
It’s actually one of the popular theories that Jon will find out something in the crypts because in the books he’s afraid to go there and he must find a strength to do so. One day he’ll must visit this place. Also by visiting Kings in the dream, they become hostile towards him like he has no place there. Another hint towards him being born as Targaryen even by blood half. It just sounds cheap but if I’m proven wrong. Hats off to the author and you for bringing this up.
BranTheBlessed,
Or him sending away Aemon Targeryan to die in the sea in his old age;
So he would not be roasted by Mel? What would be better than the blood of the man who could have been king to cast some spells at the wall. I thought Jon’s actions on this made sense at the time. In retrospect, yes it hastened Aemon’s death. Cold preserves. But at 102, how many years did he have left?
And the exchange with Gilly’s baby the same. Val’s baby being possibly viewed by Mel as of royal blood.
I would say more pragmatic. What if he hadn’t sent Aemon away and Mel roasted him? Or Val’s baby? Then we’d be decrying his stupidity.
I would say his more injurious actions were possibly his actions that involved the NW in the concerns of the 7 Kingdoms. Alys Karstark, well intentioned, but potentially injurious to the NW. Aid to Stannis, pragmatic, as Stannis is the only person offering aid, but potentially the same. And of course the reaction to the Pink Letter. Decisions made in the heat of the moment. Good heart, good intentions. But possibly antithetical to his psition as Lord Commander.
Show!Jon suffers from not having the internal POV monologue that allows the reader to understand Jon’s rationalizations for his actions. Someone else pointed out that everytime there was a conflict with his family and the NW duty, Jon was terribly conflicted, so the reaction to Rickon was not totally out of character to me. He completely changed his plans to rescue fAyra, essentially forsaking his duty.
What did Aemon say, “Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.” It was to Ned, to Robb, and to Jon.
BranTheBlessed,
It’s the same in the books. She clearly can’t control Drogon after she flew of Daznak. Just like in the show.
But afterwards he obeys her.
talvikorppi,
Yeah thats why i want them to do that because they still havent done it..
They have made the term “one who is promised ” which combines the three prophecies …they have done the stallion prophecy and mention dany as chosen one and speak about prophecies and dany in behind the episode videos .
I think they will go into The details next season..
Exactly third time is the charm ams no one ever looked for a girl.
And iam saying all this in nice way too
Is it annoying that I keep talking about this prophecies….even I find sometimes bored by the topic..
I think that the three heads means metaphor as well the roles dany Will play and prophecies she will fulfill and the dragons are just the symbol that drives the point and represent those versions of dany..
You can find my theory on book section or TV discussion section..iam warning you its quite long ..if you have time give it a read and tell me how you feel about it.
BranTheBlessed,
It made for good visuals? And possibly future plot points?
BranTheBlessed,
The thing is if you take books into the account they never behaved the way they behaved in the show..
The show always goes for not the subtle way and hence we see them act as they did and now we see them back to her again ..
But it will be same as in the books and show that she will be controlling them ..
Consider it ths way if mother of dragons can’t control her dragons then nobody can’t ..
Regarding tyrion I think he answered it perfectly in the books we see dany’s handmaidens and jorah and barristan all being close to the dragons ..
Geralt of Rivia,
Yeah I read that iam looking forward to it next episode..
I would love to see her reaction when discovering that LF helped Sansa/Jon take back WF. That would be worth seeing. However, she probably has a few higher priority items to accomplish on her insanity list before worrying about WF. 🙂
Flayed Potatoes,
since Karstark should have more men
In the books at least, the Karstark men wander the Riverlands not able to go north due to the IB at Moat Cailin. I guess when the Boltons took over they might have been able to wonder north if they were still alive and could forage for food along the way. But it’s not clear that the Boltons would have allowed them. The Northern alliances were a bit more frayed in the books than on the show.
Darkrobin:
No, I agree those decisions were all well intended but I’m just saying…if those were actually shown on GoT, they’d certainly be considered controversial and Jon would be a target of harsher critics.
Re your point about the absence of internal monologue affecting character portrayal, absolutely agree. This is why I love books more so than shows. Changing expressions on face don’t allow the same depth of understanding.
Sunfyre or any other dragos are not in ASoIaF (This story). They’re in GRRM’s other writing. Readers of the ASoIaF series shouldn’t need to rely on off-book info to make sense of the story – and they don’t. As far as ASoIaF is concerned, Drogon, Rhaegal and Viserion are the only dragons the readers know. Some vague mentions of Aegon the Conqueror’s and his sisters’ dragons are made, but not full dragonlore. It’s rather the point. Now they’ve got these three dragons in the world again, after 150 years, and nobody really knows what to do with them. I like that.
The whip as a symbol… It’s a symbol of slavers, in case you forgot. Dany tried to enslave Drogon. It doesn’t work, of course. He carries “mummy” to safety but he does not obey her by the end of book 5. He doesn’t go where she wants to go. That’ll probably change in the next book (whenever that’s published), and hopefully through the bond, not whip.
Dany’s story and her connection with the dragons has layers in the books – less so in the show, but I don’t mind that. A TV show cannot explain everything, it must use shorthand. On the show, Dany now has control over all three, and I’m fine with that. They have a bond, and maybe big bro Drogon told Rhaegal and Viserion to do as he does. Good enough for me.
I especially enjoyed reading how many of the reviewers were keen on how GoT (and especially Sapochnik) use the bodies of the dead as landscape architecture. I also felt Jon was possibly re-experiencing his “nothingness” as he struggled to rise from the mass of bodies surrounding him on the battlefield. Excellent metaphor and imagery.
talvikorppi,
I agree but my point is what happens with drogon and sunfyre and those chained at KL show that they feel their riders and sense them ..
Yeah that was what I am saying about the whip but you said well .we already saw her lose the whip and control him as soon as she embraced her family words and remembered who she is in the last chapter ..
talvikorppi,
I agree but my point is what happens with drogon and sunfyre and those chained at KL show that they feel their riders and sense them ..
Yeah that was what I am saying about the whip but you said well .we already saw her lose the whip and control him as soon as she embraced her family words and remembered who she is in the last chapter ..
Am fine with that as well ..
Ha ha, actually I would LOVE 3 hour episodes! (ok, 2h)
So the whole episode?
HAHAHA
😀
agree with you
Beer Island,
I don’t see him being toast 🙁
I HOPE HE IS
but Sophie said her favorite scene ever was the end scene with Ramsay
I think double crossing LF would be bigger than that, if not the same? I don’t know
Im losing hope that LF is toast.
dragonbringer,
Well, I hope this chat between Dany and Tyrion also foreshadowed the former’s willingness not to feed the latter’s brother to her dragons.
Oh boy, that is what I was thinking too. I think the time has come to try and stay as unspoiled as possible.
I think the show has shown how Dany, for a while, lost her bond with the dragons. When she tried to rule and compromise and -FFS – chained two of her “babies” in a dungeon.
Now she has embraced her “fire and blood” side, her dragonlord side, so it’s only natural that her babies flock to her once more. You or others might disagree with that explanation but that’s what I get from the show and it works fine for me.
As to Tyrion… Well, there IS a book theory… (that I don’t particularly subscribe to), and, well, he said, dragons are intelligent animals, know who are friends. They never hurt Missy, GW etc. OK, a bit lame, but that scene with Tyrion and the dragons was gripping. This is a TV show.
Oh, it’s footy time! Northern Ireland v. Germany and Ukraina v. Poland today. Yesterday the DRAGONS (Wales) beat Russia, to top their group ahead of England. A nice factoid: England’s patron saint is St George, the dragonslayer. 😀
I knew it was only a matter of time before such articles would start coming up, and this is not the first such article I have read either, after the last episode, but this one just made me completely mad!!
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.vox.com/2016/6/21/11976462/game-of-thrones-sansa-stark-littlefinger-ramsay-jon&ved=0ahUKEwjsw8HqwLnNAhWHuo8KHTvqCwcQqQIIGigBMAA&usg=AFQjCNGkjL7kzLXcYWPRJ2NxngTmGfg-EQ
Sou,
You can do it 🙂
I go on vacation few days after the finale airs, thatll help with the initial withdrawal.
I bought a bunch of books to read , I have a summer show that starts in a couple weeks, followed by Vikings in the fall. They usually have true detective as well but I am not sure if that’s cancelled
Ill keep myself busy. Last year was hard because of Jon. As long as my man is ALIVE after next week, I am good. LOL
I expect Cersei to die Sunday though.
Sou,
Me too.
Should have said her OR jaime. Not ”and”.
You think you can pull it, though? I tried last summer and well, not anyone is careful about spoiler tags.
At least this year there is no book material at all (I think).
Sou,
That’s the only take away I had in that scene..
But I never thought that dany jamie meet will happen because
1) I don’t believe Jamie will live that long ..sad yes .
2) and if you look at past with dany she first questions those people like Mirri .,jorah and barristan and then decides …
3) and there is a vision of mad king saying burn them all in HoTU which dany will connect and believe what Jamie is true if Jamie tells the whole story
So yeah if jamie comes out with the truth and dany giving him chance to say that then he will be spared from ending as a dragon food..
And of course with all these talks in the show they have eliminated all these things from the books in one conversation…I like how show doing these things..
Sou,
I definitely can!
I did last summer and I was here very often because I was obsessed with the Jon thing.
I didn’t get spoilt at all.
Haha! I feel with you! 😀
I love Jon, Dany and Tyrion, but Jaime has a special place in my heart, ever since S3.
ghost of winterfell,
This is absolutely the worst article I have ever read
Regardless of what his opinion is on Sansa or anything (which I think is wrong but that’s a diff story and his opinion) Referring to Rickon as the trash brother/garbage brother is absurd.
And his comments on Jon don’t even make sense.
I wish I could comment on it and tell the writer off.
This is why I don’t read this shit. Its so fucking irritating.
Dee Stark,
Yeah, I probably should not have either, lol, I have seen others like it too, but this was the worst.
ghost of winterfell,
Nah fuck this! I don’t need to read that shit.
I seriously don’t get why Rickon is the garbage brother? WTF? LOL it sounds like a 13 year old brat wrote that article
ghost of winterfell,
That article says more about the writer’s morals and values than it does Jon. I would like to see what he/she would do if it were her/his brother running for his life out there. Maybe he/she would do nothing and give up on the person but I doubt it. You have to be a little dead inside to reach that level of aloofness.
Danny,
Sad
I don’t think its the same-or rather not so straightforward- in the books.
Book version: GRRM first established Deanerys had lost control of her dragons; Drogon appears during the great games because of noise and smell of the dead meat there and wrecks havoc; Hizdahr orders soldiers to slay the dragon; Deanerys runs to Drogon to try and get him out of harm’s way; Drogon doesn’t give a sh!t about Deanerys; So Deanerys bends Drogon to her will by sheer bravery and willpower.
Quentyn releases Viserion and Rheagal and gets burnt as a thank you.
Show version: Deanerys apparently looses control of her dragons; She is in mortal peril surrounded by sons of the harpy in the fighting pit and closes her eyes to pray maybe? Drogon arrives-as if answering her call-lands in front of her and burns her enemies; Deanerys hops over Drogon and rides away easily without fight.
Tyrion releases Viserion and Rheagal without getting so much as a scratch.
Beer Island,
Some of you really arent that great at thinking as well as you think you are. Maybe Job told her what Ramsey said…..
talvikorppi,
Sweet Lord, thanks for clarifying that one.
No offense Mihnea, but that wiping gave me a completely wrong image!!!…
Have to say Sepinwall’s comments are spot on. Really sum up the disappointments of this episode. Not that I haven’t re-watched this episode several times already, the technical side is amazing.
Dee Stark,
Same here. As I was reading it I was like, what the…? Ugh.
Sou,
It was a typo!!
I realized how bad it must look…..
BranTheBlessed,
Selmy thinks Drogon came because of the blood. It isn’t anything set in stone.
Let us just agree to disagree here. What they did to the dragons is among my favourite change from the books. So we’ll never agree anyway.
Danny,
So Sansa says something she heard second hand. No plot hole. I appreciate that there are actual logical flaws in certain scripts, but this just isn’t one.
VegoDread,
Calm down friend, think that we are dealing with written speech here and written speech can be easily misunderstood. Plus each one of us comes here with her own worries, stress, even nerves from our real lives, so sometimes we react too harshly for no reason at all. Judging from myself, sometimes I jump at people who are obviously (to all, not me) gesting or something just because I am tired or angry or whatever ans sometimes you can say anything (even call me a book purist, which is so fun because I get this a lot without having ever read those books) and I find it cool.
And I have found myself dismissing people a tad too harshly (like on this hounds issue) without really wanting to offend anyone.
So, my point being… let’s be cool.
Yeah, it makes for good viewing- no question about that. I doubt there are many who were not awed at the sight of Viserion and Rheagal observing and then following Deanerys & Drogon. If one is obsessed about storytelling though, then that whole ‘losing control and gaining back control’ plot leaves you scratching at the head a bit.
To edit my comment earlier cause it seemed douche like lol
You are really not that great at thinking outside the box as much yiu much you think D & D arent. She coukd have been told by Jon what Ramsey said, hence the surprised look on his face.
It isnt about fapping to all things F & D, but at the same time sime stuff aint worth nitpicking, just cause it is cool to sneak disses at them (terms like Hollywood hacks seems to be a fav round the net, and as if they can write any better) like everyone has been doing to them the WHOLE series, especially since last year
ghost of winterfell,
There is also a dumbass article written by some critic from Variety. But the one you linked it even dumber. It makes you wonder why some people get paid for this.
I can’t wait for next week’s episode lol.
ArgonathofBraavos,
I didn’t think it was a plot hole at all. Sure, the moment she said it I thought well she did leave before he said it and it probably is a continuation error on their part nothing more. A plot hole is often illogical and can’t be explained away, in this case Sansa could have easily asked Jon off screen what did Ramsey say after I left and Tormund could have gone “the c*nt told us he’ll feed us to his dogs who haven’t been fed in 7 days.” Easy enough to deduce for the average viewer.
I actually think is hilarious that people chose to jump on that line instead of say what Ramsay told Jon about the stories he heard about him being a great swordsman. Who are these people telling these stories? Who? No one has seen Jon fight south of the wall. Now it could have been the Wildlings in Molestown, fair enough, but outside of them no other Northerner has seen Jon in action. This is the part that made me raise my eyebrows but I lowered them right away because at the end of the day I don’t actually care. It doesn’t change the course of the story.
Beer Island,
Nonsense implies a lack of logic. Here’s just one of a thousand possible scenarios that justify the scene as is, in the episode.
Offscreen:
Tormund: What do we do with these mad hounds? The Bolton boy said he hasn’t fed them in seven days.
Sansa: Seven days? He said this?
Tormund: Yes. It was a threat. During our parley. The cowardly twat was trying to change the subject, because he wouldn’t fight Jon one on one.
Sansa: I think I have just the meal for them…
Later:
Sansa: You said yourself that you haven’t fed them in seven days.
Of course, the writers wanted the ending of the kennel scene to be shocking, so they would have wanted to keep such a conversation between Sansa and her allies off screen.
Again, just one of many perfectly reasonable explanations for Sansa’s knowledge. Your inability to make sense of it is the problem, not our apologism. If something is not s lapse in narrative logic, it simply isn’t. And thus certainly isn’t.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yup I can imagine the rage among these people when that event happens , what’s hard to believe is these are paid professionals and they are worse than trolls.
Apparently, he is a trash brother because he ran in a straight line while trying to get to Jon instead of zigzagging. It’s the article that’s so trashy it’s laughable.
lol, yes. I actually had a fleeting thought, “how would Ramsay know?” but just let it go. Maybe some Molestown-Castle Black survivors spread the word? Ramsay would’ve refused a one-on-one anyway, so it makes no difference.
In the books Ramsay isn’t a very good sword-fighter, hacking like some village butcher, he’s better in the show, but still a person who values his own safety – bow&arrow, leading from the back, fleeing to Winterfell… See a pattern emerging? Also, Jon didn’t think Ramsay would take the challenge, it was just pre-battle propaganda to get at Ramsay’s men. Ramsay says as much.
You gotta feel for Rickon though. Absolute cannon fodder while every other Stark got arcs of their own. Even Willis the Stableboy had more impact on the story.
ghost of winterfell,
I’ve noticed a trend among certain fans of the show who want Rickon to die so Sansa can become queen. The wishes extend to the other Starks too. It’s pathetic, really.
I din’t know the show was called “Game of Starks” or “Battle of the Starks” lmao.
i think thats a reasonable appraisal of sansa. she didnt tell john because she knew that keeping LF to herself as the ‘curveball’ was going to give them the best chance of ultimate victory.
she saw jon would not be able to handle rickon’s death – and to be fair jon did exactly what she feared and fell into ramsays trap.
at the end of the day they won because of that, so really, although it was a cold calculating thing to do, it had the desired effect.
Sansa on Twitter during the Battle of the Bastards (cracking her gum with her mouth open, sitting on her horse, glued to her iRaven):
SansaWinterfell3: OMG, this is tots cray cray. So much battlin’ and stuff. It looks so dirty.
SansaWinterfell3: It was so amazballs! I rode in with Littlefinger (on our white horses, so posh), and we saved the world, for realz. : D
JonSnow19213234: Sansa why didn’t you tell me you had hundreds of more men?! You could have saved thousands of lives!
SansaWinterfell3: You don’t know me! I won the world! Get over it. Whatevs.
ArgonathofBraavos</st
ArgonathofBraavos,
What the hell are you talking about? How about not having her riding off seconds before Ramsey says such info? I stopped talking about this hours ago but ok continue. So next episode my prediction is Jon Snow is gonna behead LF for betraying Ned Stark.
BranTheBlessed,
Well, he might do something awesome in the books… assuming any more books will be published some day.
But let’s face it: being male, thus a heir, he was in a tough position right from the start. In that respect, it was easier for the girls. In theory, at least. As they being potentially valuable assets for aspiring husbands.
Still on Rickon, people, I can’t believe how many viewers are telling him off for running straight. As if we would all think about zigzaguing were we in his shoes. Well, I may be dumb, but if a mad man told me run to your brother and get saved and he was there shooting arrows behind me, I am pretty certain I would run as hell -and yes, completely straight.
Dee Stark,
Yeah he seems like a mind reader and knows everything on the show. We see she has taken on his mindset so I think we are heading towards him being offed by her unless they are going to let him turn Sansa against Jon. Which would set Sansa’s character back a couple books at least.
I honestly don’t think they are going to kill off Jaime. There is a lot they can do with him storywise but Cersei? Hmmmm I wouldn’t be surprised. I’m getting the feeling that the Lanisters as a powerful house is not the way it’s going. Individual Lannisters aligned to other protagonists yes.
Really? I see him as a bit pointless going nowhere myself. In some ways I’d like to be wrong. We need the nut jobs lol
Halfman,
Yep. I got the feeling that Cersei is a liability now. Jaime, they need him as commander of the Lannister army. I mean for the war against the WW. Although I cannot see how Jaime would react to Cersei’s death. I mean, based on what we have seen so far, he may totally lose it.
LastKiss,
She has been hiding about the Vale army since episode 5. Way before she could come up with any such conclusion as you say. Her hiding the truth from Jon has nothing to do with his vulnerability to Ramsay’s tricks. It had more to do with her inability to trust anyone, which is understandable, plus letting LF get to her with his half brother jibe.
BranTheBlessed,
I know, right? Poor kid. I have wondered about him since he left Bran with Osha. Wondered if at least he was treated right, cared for….or was he kept as a prisoner? Wonder if Jon will have a conversation with Umber about that….Geesh he was only 12 – people expect the kid to know how to avoid arrows shot by a skilled shooter….One can only guess (and shiver) what he was put through under Ramsey’s ‘care’.
Dee Stark,
Nah, I can’t do it. For one thing I don’t mind spoilers so I don’t care. For another, its what keeps me sane between seasons. Plus it is more fun, less fighting, then doing the season. Luke Nieto only comes by for the off season, not the season. Think actually that might be a wise thing to do.
Flayed Potatoes,
Even though there will be no battle between the Starks on the show, I am expecting a full fledged battle between the fans after the season 🙂 .
I had some problems with the episode, but I honestly cannot understand the nitpicking about the hounds information.
Listen, this show had one of the BIGGEST conversations possible happen offscreen – Jon telling Sansa (and Brienne) “hey I was murdered by my own and brought back to life by the Lord of Light and oh hey White Walkers are real.” But somehow people can’t believe someone mentioned in passing near or to Sansa that the hounds were hungry? Come on.
Relatedly, I really still think that decision, to have Jon and Sansa never speak about Jon’s experience, is the biggest mistake the show has made, and I think it WAS done to make this kind of false drama between them. Much of their plot has been a product of them really only focusing on Sansa’s anger and getting revenge for HER experiences, and so the ultimate endpoint is that she does save the day and get her revenge. That involves keeping it from Jon, so in some ways the victory is entirely her redemption.
But we’re also told that Sansa doesn’t fully trust Jon. To be honest, I think the only way they could sustain that narrative is if they never talk about what happened to Jon, because I don’t know how they could have a conversation about what the real war is about and that Jon was willing to die for the ‘greater good’ and then have her NOT trust him. So they just never had that conversation.
For me, the choice to not have Sansa and Jon talk about that was made to drive some of the plot that I find questionable. That is NOT a plot hole – it’s a plot DECISION they’re making. One doesn’t necessarily have to love it, but I don’t think any of it counts as a plot hole.
Dee Stark,
It’s part of the fun of the offseason!
Actually, I wonder if you could manage it this season. We are completely and entirely off book now. I think last season some of the spoiler speculation could be confirmed as reality because we do know SOME things that still had to happen, ie could match up a spoiler to plot.
But now, heck, no one knows anything! I see a casting call for two people and it’s kind of like – who the heck knows, not one person knows what it could mean, but it’s fun to guess!
Beer Island,
Offed by her in episode 10?
possibly, but at first it was because she didnt want anything to do with LF, it wasnt till she sent the raven that she was hiding their possible arrival.
Sou,
It’s hard to call but what the hell is Jaime doing going to a party at the Twins when he’s fulfilled his orders and supposedly is in a huge hurry to get back to KL and Cersei?
I really can’t call it but I don’t see where Cersei fits in once she torches KL and loses Tommen which is very likely. I can’t believe he’s survived this long. Who on earth does he take after? He’s more than pathetic.
Sou,
Right? and I am assuming everyone understands that Ramsay WASNT going to kill him UNTIL he reached Jon (that was the “game”)..at which point,even had he known to do it, he would not have been zigging and zagging
Nadia,
because I don’t know how they could have a conversation about what the real war is about and that Jon was willing to die for the ‘greater good’ and then have her NOT trust him. So they just never had that conversation.
Unless she really is the true protege of Cersei, LF, and the like. They would only be concerned with the effect on them and on what they wanted. I don’t want to think that of her and I hope the next episode reveals more.
Halfman,
Beats me. You are right, this is a huge mystery. Why on earth would he accept Frey’s invitation. The Twins are on the way to the North, not KL. He knows the situation is critical in KL. He was such in a hurry on ep. 8…
I can go on like this for hours and would still be unable to figure out a possible explanation. We will just have to wait until Sunday I guess!
Nadia,
I agree with really wishing they’d shown that-or at least her reaction to it. But she’s been focused this season. So focused there’s been no room for her reaction to a whole new world of things she had no idea existed before this season. WWs, Giants, her brother’s resurrection. She’s the only living Stark who was completely untouched by magic (Arya had FM magic and BWB), she’d barely had time to bond with her Direwolf before it was killed in Season 1, now she’s surrounded by it and doesn’t seem to see it. This is my husband’s biggest beef. She didn’t even widen her eyes when she saw Wun Wun or say “You tell stories like Old Nan” instead of “Remember Old Nan’s soup?”
I wish they’d had more wiggle room for both of them to adapt to their new situation. For Sansa to realize there is more in the world than politics and power games (which to be fair is all she’s known since KL) and for Jon to come to terms with who he is and who he wants to be now that he’s come back.
I’m hoping they have a good talk next episode now that she has her home back and R is dead.
Isn’t that weirdly wonderful to say? Ramsay is dead. 🙂
selena,
Exactly. Plus we all know Ramsay was a fine archer. Used to human targets, what is more. So he would probably get the poor boy no matter what. Imagine how silly it would look if the kid had started with some zigging and some zagging. Right out of the Monty Python Flying Circus.
ash,
Wondered if at least he was treated right, cared for….or was he kept as a prisoner? Wonder if Jon will have a conversation with Umber about that…
I wish. That convo will be a little one sided with Smalljon dead. Maybe Mel can bring him back for questioning?
Tycho Nestoris,
Ha!! Duh, I missed that. Ok then…….. 🙂
Still wonder about Rickon tho. His mother takes off to fight with Robb, his dad is killed, his sisters gone, leaves Bran. Never really had a chance to have a family. When you think about it, they all had to find familiies: Arya did, several times, Jon had CB, Bran had the sight and all that goes with it. Sansa never really found that at all, which could explain a lot. In fact I think a therapist would get very rich if they all when to therapy..
Darkrobin,
No, the difference is that those people don’t actually hear or believe about the WWs. It just doesn’t play in their minds at all, because no one around them is talking about it or worried about it. LF didn’t know what Ramsay was like – does he know about Hardhome? Of course not.
The difference is that it seems quite clear that Sansa believes that to be true. We never heard them talk about it, but it’s come up enough that I don’t think we’re supposed to think Sansa thinks it’s all a joke.
I haven’t been able to stop thinking about it since I saw him there in the preview. “Run Jaime! A Frey party is a BAD party!”
ash,
Me too. I am excited to see how he changes in Martin’s story.
Yes that’s how I see it as well. I’m at a loss on this one but it could possibly be the twist no one has seen coming. Maybe…
It’s had me hooked too. I can figure out the TOJ but not this lol.
I am just rewatching some parts of ep 9(no, I simply cannot rewatch all of it), and I have a question, if anyone can (and cares to) answer: why are the sons of the Harpy slaughtering people outside the city gates??
This victory does not belong to Sansa… if you had to give anyone credit, I suppose it would be LF. Sansa did not know he was coming. How would she? If a raven had arrived with the Arry sigil, who among the camp leaders would take it to her before reading it themself? How would they even know who it was meant for if it came by raven? If it came by rider, people would have noticed and questioned her about who the rider was and whatnot. She lied about the offer, true enough, but after that it was just her hoping he would show up.
Sou,
My guess would be they were just outside waiting for people to start fleeing… it’s already been established they were allied with the masters. Doesn’t really seem like something that should be questioned.
Unfinished plots for season:
1 – North’s new Lord/Monarch + Resolution
Hopefully Jon Stark made King/Lord to lead defence vs WW. He’ll need Sansa’s help in ruling/politics. She needs him for protection – yes she does…. Brienne’s a loyal servant, not protector)
Karstark’s head needs to role though.
Some epic speech by the Manderly dude?
1 glimpse of Howland Reed….even 1???
2 – LF to manipulate his way into Stark plans bc he saved the day
I wish: Jon/Sansa find out his betrayal – he runs in fear of his life/imprisoned/killed (unlikely)
Dont think theyve got any grand scheme succeeding for him in finale cos hes been too minor this season. Either gets done over or fails.
3 – Mel to pay for Shireen
I feel: Davos furious…shes remorseful…ready to die…Jon refuses (did him quite a favour)…She insists…has 1 last plan for her fire beliefs/prophecies….has Jon stab her somehow….LONGCLAW is Firebringer…her body has some sorta fire properties right…she is Nisa Nisa!!
4 – KL
Too much wildfire foreshadowing this season…trial sentences her to death…she flips…Mountain slaughter FM….HS & Tommen (hopefully) die in the chaos…
And Cersei burns KL n hundreds of ppl too…b4 escapinf for CR
Margaery OR Loras will die (setting up Margaery OR Loras + QoT to avenge the killed one early nxt season…just as Daeny arrives to wipe em out)
5 – Daeny to head West
Perhaps just begin sailing…maybe epic navy shot….shudnt be much else
6 – Arya heads West
If we dnt c anymore of her its BS! Entire season story just for her to leave Bravos!?! After yeaaaars there!?!? Hopefully she reaches Riverrun….↓
7 – Freys Fate
Were reintroduced for a reason. Clip frm preview…esp with Jaime… shows something bigs gotta go down…cant just show em partying in season finale.
What i hope: Arya joins BwB and they wreck havoc.
ARYA/ HOUND KILLS WALDER!!!! BERIC KILL JAIME!!!!
BwB are of course anti-Lannister.
Jaime’s a prick! Whatever redemption he mighta got for some…prev eps showed his selfish side again…he started Ned’s problems…and Brans….Arya knows he slaughtered a dozen Stark men in KL and injured Ned…preventin his escape…startin her own problems…remember all what happened to Starks was simply to hide Jaime-Cersei’s filthy secret….
I WANT JAIME’S HEAD!!!!
It would break hearts of many Jaime-loving fans…which gives me hope theyd do it!!
Plus Beric was sent by Ned to stop Lannister army & Tywin etc…this is substitute….Jaime dead….Lannister army without leader… just Cersei left to be Drogons Snack next season…yum!
8 – Bran & Benjen
R + L – nuff said!!
Dee Stark,
Mihnea,
I see you two are talking about being less active on the site next season. Well, if you are still interested in my reviews, you will always find them in “book readers recap” on Monday evening. I can guarantee that I will not abandon my tradition.
Lord Stoneheart,
Ok, I’m buying that. Reasonable enough. Thank you, my Lord.
What? Noooo don’t disappear people. Trust me many enjoy your debates and input even if they don’t a) agree or b) respond or c) disagree.
Personally I love to read all the input even though I may not think similarly. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. That doesn’t detract from the wealth of viewpoints.
This website has a lot of intelligent and knowledgeable people contributing. Ok sometimes it gets a bit fractious but it really is a fab place to be and that’s because of the admins/authors and also because of the members, almost all of whom have really valuable contributions to make ❤️
I dunno. It seemed a bit odd to me too. Unless there were people fleeing the city and the Sons of the Harpy pounced on them.
Lord Parramandas,
I will make sure to check for your post!
Always love reading those reviews.
TPTWP,
I don’t know about Jaime (I still think we need him plot-wise), but I am pretty certain the finale will be a bloodshed. I expect KL and the Twins to stop being relevant as of season 7. Plus I fear that uncle Benjen will have the same destiny as other characters that reappeared this season, the Hound excepted.
TPTWP,
Don’t forget Varys and Sam!
I hope LF stays. He’s just too integral to all the other plots. He has been scarce this season though. Not sure why? Has he been scheming or just waiting for the fires to die down?
I think Jon and Sansa separate as well. Jon should prob head back to the Wall, right?
I hope Varys is going to KL and not Dorne. That prob means he’s going to Dorne if I want him to go to KL.
I also hope Sam is going to Citadel and not back to Wall.
TPTWP,
Well I don’t see Jaime the way you do. His redemption arc continues strongly imo. I’d be gutted if Jaime got killed off. I know what he is and what he’s done but he’s the one tortured soul in this story who the show runners have huge potential to make something of.
Jaime is at the Frey party and he’s clearly headed north and not back to KL so I’m hoping there is much more to come with him.
Besides, on a completely frivolous and tinfoil tack…..he has to compete with Tormund for Brienne’s affection. ??
Tycho Nestoris,
I don’t think Jon is going back to the Wall. Why would he?
The whole purpose of leaving the Wall was that he couldn’t stay there, or didn’t want to stay there. His Watch is ended.
The Night’s Watch is doomed. Eventually the Wall is coming down, and it’s not going to happen while Jon is there.
Also, Jon said very clearly that they needed Winterfell to fight the White Walkers and unite the North. He’ll make his base there.
Man I really cannot stand to rewatch the battle scenes. I don’t have the gut for it. What a carnage. I watched up to the beautiful scene of Jon facing the Bolton cavalry and I simply cannot go on, as much as I would like to shed some light on Lord Karstark’s fate, for Flayed Potatoes et al’s sake! Sorry guys, no insight on that issue I am very much afraid.
And I couldn’t rewatch Rickon either. What a whimp (I, not Rickon). It is just as good that yesterday I was so much taken in awe I didn’t even have the reflex of closing my eyes or something (well, except from that kennel scene).
Nadia,
All good points. I meant more like a trip to the wall. Check on things. Kick the tires. Maybe a training session or two. Most importantly, make sure Edd is still alive.
Edit: I suppose a raven would suffice. I also want to mention that Jon knows Bran is still alive. Is there no chance he tries to find him?
Halfman,
Lol…i still want his head!
With KL likely ashes what else cam he do….some say hes gonna kill Cersei so mayb thats early nxt season….but in both the grand Winter War in North coming and Daeny’s Dragons’ War frm East – hed have nothing to offer at all i think. Useless in north and no house to defend vs Daeny (Tommens dying n Cersei’s mad)
Re Brienne – i think tgeir farewell was final
Tycho Nestoris,
Of course!
9 – Sam
Am confused by his relevance this season…we left S5 with him on road to Citadel n seems same place by end of S6 – we thought we gonna learn so much frm him this season – nothing happened…something epic better be abt to shock us (yes i loved all HH scenes)
10 – Varys
No idea – Dorne sounds wise….could be gateway into Westeros for Daeny …would nicely gel together storylines
11 – Dorne and Ellaria
That farce early season can b slightly redeed if it joins Daenys storyline
Halfman,
Oh, he will eventually die, just not now, imo. He started out as a total villain, I can’t see salvation for a guy that tossed a kid out of a window. Still, I think he’ll get more noble episode by episode so that his demise will be as shocking and hurtful for us poor viewers. And I really believe he will die in the arms of the woman he loves, just as he wanted and asked for. Only she will not be Cersei (there you go, you romantic soul!).
Tycho Nestoris,
Remind me: how does he know?
Tycho Nestoris,
Bran can just go south to Winterfell.
TPTWP,
What? Jamie can’t die before killing Cersei! After that you can feed him to the wolves. Winter comes even for all those debt-paying lions.
Sou,
Thank you. You have the measure of me ?
TPTWP,
The valonqar theory doesn’t apply in the show as that was cut from the prophecy on screen so I don’t see that as potential. With KL in ashes I can see him aligning himself elsewhere as his brother has done. But hey, that is reaching….I know that 🙂
Sou,
Sam tells him in ep 4 of season 4 (Oathkeeper). Locke overhears them.
Flayed Potatoes,
True, but Jon doesn’t know that. I was just spitballing about “open” plots. I doubt Jon’s knowledge of Bran via Sam is relevant in the finale (or even beyond).
Tycho Nestoris,
I don’t think he’ll ride off searching for Bran. If Sansa has any influence, it’s to be a little more pragmatic and less emotional. He might hope with all his heart that Bran and Arya make it back to them – he/they might even send people to find them – but he won’t again ride off to save one Stark at the expense of leading the many. If he’s learned anything, it has to be that.
Lord Stoneheart,
If Brienne’s raven can find Sansa and Jon at their military camp, why couldn’t LF’s raven find Sansa? I think both are improbable but as the show gave us one, why not the other? And if people can say Brienne’s raven went to CB first, why couldn’t LF’s have done the same. LF found Sansa or vice versa.
As to the uncertainty over his coming. Let me offer a counterpoint to that argument. Sansa told him in the letter he would be rewarded. I think the trailer may have indicated a conversation about that reward in the next episode.
LF had already offerred use of the Vale knights. He had received permission from Robyn to use them. I think the chances of him not responding positively were slim to none.
Some would argue that Sansa didn’t know that. But if she is the master game player that some now believe she is, wouldn’t she have thought that it was very probable that he would and she did entice him with a reward. Part of me wonders if Sansa didn’t take Cersei ‘s advice during the siege of KL to heart … namely that a woman has more weapons than her tears … and that men like to use both kind of swords …
I’m not saying that she intends to go through on any such reward, but perhaps she made the offer so that she would be pretty certain that he would come a runnin’.
Yessss! Finally someone who agrees a bit re Jaime…i doubt hus death ll heart me …i just want it to be a wolf!
And i really hope he dsnt kill Cersei…i wanted either (1) one of her own doings to kill her slowly n painfully (Frankclegane/ FM ) or (2) someone shes oppressed (Stark girls/commonfolk) or (3) Drogon (my 2nd fav character alive after last ep (after Jon)…n i hated Meereen b4)
Lord Parramandas,
I will always look for your reviews 🙂
Halfman,
You are sweet and you are right:) it’s just been very negative lately and I feel like it’s going to be worse next season as we are completely off books. D&D write differently then Martin. It doesn’t bother me but it’s just gonna be blah here. And I found myself enjoying the season more just doing the unsullied recap. I’ll be around of course, I’ve made many friends here! Just less!
Porcelain, Ivory, Steel <3 <3 <3
Dee Stark,
Hope you come back!
Dee Stark,
I agree that the athmosphere on the site was way more positive during the offseason and has really become tense these days. Those were golden days for me, the Memory Lane left such an impression on me and I was never so hyped about the season as this year. Yes, there were some comments from SlayerNina and Al Swearengen but they were insignificant compared to the number of positive ones. I joined the site in September remember how eagerly I read all the comments because I knew I will not get frustrated by them due to the positivity of this site. But since the Red Woman aired… it just doesn’t feel the same and sometimes I really dread to read the comments, especially on the pages with a really large number of them. And these days, there were even implications that a very positive approach towards the show is wrong.
Tycho Nestoris,
Jon knows Bran is Beyond the Wall. He went to Craster’s and couldn’t find him. He went to Hardhome to pick up the last Wildlings and witnessed the massacre. He has no reason to believe Bran is alive and look for him. Bran, on the other hand, can get to the Wall and find out from whoever is there what Jon is doing and where he is. Jon captured Winterfell, so imo Bran will go there.
Dee Stark,
Don’t let the bastards get you down, Dee. (And before anyone freaks out, no, I’m not calling people of a different opinion bastards, it’s a figure of speech). Not that I’m always able to follow my own advice, but just gloss over those who bum you out.
Lord Parramandas,
Not that I don’t love the “on-season,” but it seems more fun during the off-season. It’s just people speculating, and laughing, and mostly having fun, and there’s not much for those prone to getting really angry over this or that to get angry over.
Miss Stark,
??thank you!!
While skilled archers with modern equipment can consistently make fatal shots at the ~100 yard range of the final arrow, that’s after practicing at that specific distance, having no wind, and most importantly a non-moving target. Rickon would have moved 20-25 feet from the instant Ramsay decided to loose the arrow to the time the arrow arrived. There’s just no way to predict exactly where someone running over natural terrain would be after that much movement. The path of least resistance on ground like that is never straight, so even if Rickon wasn’t intentionally trying to zigzag, he’d naturally do so anyway by enough to make any shot at that range partially a matter of luck.
Lord Parramandas,
I agree with you very much
I have nothing against different opinions but it’s just so negative
You come on here after an episode and it’s just brings you down because – can’t explain it. This is the first season I do that after the episode. I used to go on Twitter before and check out game of thrones trending
As I said I don’t expect everyone to have a positive review by any means – I just feel a negative aura this season. But before it was so hype in here!
The memory lanes were amazing. I remember your comments !
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I know. It’s tough. You’re cute! Thank you! I think it makes a difference as I used to only partially be involved but I never touched the sullied recaps and open chats – those are the big ones lol!
I’ll be here for the offseason for sure (no spoiler stuff of course)
Lord Parramandas,
where, on this site? Or elsethread?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Yes it does seem more fun off season. People don’t take themselves quite so seriously. I don’t think I could totally stay away during the season, Im too hooked, but I’ve learned to scroll passed things when it gets too out of control for me, when no one is listening to each other. Hope Dee is able to do that, we;d miss you!
I’m new to the forum but was wondering why Rickon’s body would be buried in the crypt and not burned as is typically the protocol to stop them from turning into wights?
And I’ve definitely missed Ghost these past few episodes but where is TPTWP Ser Pounce? I’m beginning to fear the reanimated Mountain shares the same affinity for cats that his brother does for chickens.
Btw, thank you all for the wonderful commentary and discussions.
ash,
🙂 I’ll be here just a bit more selective !!!
Sorry, I think I’m answering my own question after realizing that being south of The Wall Rickon’s body should be safe for now from the White Walkers.
I scroll past a great deal. I get sucked (suckered) into arguing easily, so I try to read only those who debate respectfully and intelligently. And I read those who don’t debate but are respectful. That keeps me out of trouble for 9/10ths of my posts. If only I could behave all the time.
Dee Stark,
Ok, good. Those of us with lethal kicks have to stay together, you know. 🙂
ash,
Yeah, I couldn’t stay away completely in the on-season, either, but I have noticed I kind of tune out ore than I used to. On the one hand, it’s good, ’cause it keeps me out of trouble, so to speak, but on the other hand, well, I miss discussing some things with certain folks, and I’m sure there are some great new posters I’ve missed.
Ginevra,
I never get suckered into arguing.
Not ever.
I am sweetness and light at all times.
Sweetness and motherfucking light, I say!!!
rasprophet,
Welcome to the Wall! 🙂
It’s always good to meet another Ser Pounce fan.
When you fart, which you never do, rays of sunshine and whiffs of perfume stream out your ass.
Dee Stark,
Hey Dee, what did I miss?! What is it that’s making you want to spend less time here?
Edit: Just saw your explanation up-thread. I’m sorry you’re feeling negativity, I haven’t noticed any more than usual then again I tend to ignore and scroll past the posts that have bad reviews after I’ve enjoyed an episode
Beer Island,
You’re either an idiot, or you know you’re wrong and refuse to acknowledge it (bcuz u cant back down on the interwebz11!!!!). I’ll take an admission of either, though.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Thank you Nymeria! From the little that I’ve gathered I can sense that you truly are a warrior queen. It’s nice to have a place for friendly discourse and I understand the frustrations when conversations degenerate into childish, petty bull ish* But we brush it off our shoulders. The forum is informative and I’ve learned so much, in secretive silence, from good people such as yourself and many others and look forward to much more.
The core problem is that the show wants a cunning, good-guy Sansa, but is trying to achieve this by ambiguously making her either a Machiavellian evil bitch Sansa or a good-hearted but psychologically damaged and a bit doltish Sansa, depending on what she knew and was thinking, which we don’t know. I guess the writers expect us to engage in some quantum mechanics, superimpose the two mutually exclusive possibilities, and take “Machiavellian” from the first possibility and “good-hearted” from the second.
“Evil Sansa” fits the data much better than “Ditzy Sansa”, but I think the writers’ intent is closer to the latter. At least they are echoing the Evil vs Dumb card she played on LF early this season. Points for clever repetition.
Chad Brick,
Or, she’s large and contains multitudes. Like most people.
People only become wights if they are killed by another Wight or a WW ?
Halfman,
That’s definitely not true. They’ve made it clear at the Wall and north of the Wall that bodies that aren’t burned can come back. Any bodies.
The crypts of Winterfelll, however, will be special. If they come back, they’ll follow a Stark at Winterfell, which is why there must always be one.
The Barrowlands are an entirely different story. I fear they’ll provide tens or hundreds of thousands of wights.
ygritte,
Yeah, I think its because before this season, I didn’t read that’s many posts/comments, where as this year im reading manyyyyyyy so I am seeing it all. Didn’t like it!
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
You bet we do! 🙂
i have been reading all of the posts here , i love them all good or bad, but only for myself i can not understand why people care about the have not fed the dogs for 7 days, yes she was not there and she found out anyway, i care more about ramsey getting kiled by his dogs really, that is the best they could come up with who did not see that coming i feel ripped off a bit , just because i truly love this show when they get things right it is amazing and they do get it right 99% of the time, i just am dissapointed , they repeat or recycle if you will, the battles a big army saves the day, even this season the play watching ned’s beheadding, just as sansa watched a play dipicting robb’s loss of his head , the close up shots of sansa’s face the same with arya the swell of sad music it is exactly the same , please forgive me if i have offended anyone, i would just like something new, that’s all.
Does anybody have theories about how littlefinger’s downfall and deat? Please I am all ears about this…
Teehee.
You get it.
btw – If I ever farted, the sunshine and whiffs of perfume would not stream out my ass, it would me more of a gentle emanation…like a cool breeze on a hot summer’s day.
rasprophet,
You are far too kind. Thank you! This really is a fantastic place, and I hope now that you’ve broken your silence, you’ll jump into the fray (Frey?) with us. 🙂
Khaleesi,
I can’t get beyond how I’m hoping things go in the “present” to look into the future, but here’s what I hope:
After years of observing people like Cersei and LF, especially LF, my hope is Sansa basically tells LF she learned from him people have their uses, but once their usefulness is at an end, they should be discarded. He has now served his purpose, she’s gotten what she wanted from him, and she has no further use for him. I don’t know if she’d go so far as to kill him, or have him killed, but, if she didn’t, I think would be a mistake. While she has a lot on him (and I feel like she could justify her lying to the Vale Lords about how Lysa died by stating after seeing what he did to her, she was too afraid of LF to tell the truth), he’s so slimy he could wiggle out of it, somehow.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I wish you are right .. But the next week’s promo looks creepy. Bran must be knowing his role in Ned’s demise.
Aszusz,
Yes thanks so much for pointing that out, I was thinking about it yesterday, I don’t know how people missed it or gloss over it: it was Davos who ordered the attack, not Jon. Jon kept going because there was no turning back.