Game of Thrones Post-Mortem of “Battle of the Bastards”

Sansa

Last night, the “Battle of the Bastards” finally went down and this newest episode of Game of Thrones has fans talking about the major developments and jaw-dropping battle sequence. Here are the highlights of today’s new interviews and videos, digging deeper into the episode.

Sophie Turner talks to Entertainment Weekly about Sansa’s face-off with Ramsay Bolton, and the lasting effect the man had on her. She tells EW, “He just gets under her skin, and he violated her in such a terrible way. He’s imprinted on her, mentally and physically. She can never get that part of her back again.”

More (and spoilers galore!) under the cut:

“I really loved the idea of the Battle of the Bastards,” Turner says. “And I was loving the idea of Jon killing Ramsay. But then I was like, no, Sansa needs her first kill and it has to be Ramsay. No one else but her. And when he basically says, ‘He’s yours.’ I’m like, ‘Yes!’ She leaves him for dead, walks away doesn’t even watch him die. It’s such a great scene, so well written, and it’s so great to be able to have my first kill.”

Iwan Rheon speaks to EW as well about the episode and Ramsay’s death after the battle. Though he hadn’t filmed the scene as of the time of the interview (done last fall), he’d read it. He told EW, “I think it was great. It’s a good scene. It leaves Sansa in an interesting place as a character, because he’s saying, ‘I’m inside you now.’ [He shudders] It’s horrible, and I think he probably has done some damage. He’s gotten in her head. But I think it’s nice too, because it’s such a great scene to go out on.”

The actor discusses the ironic similarities and differences between his character and his opponent last night. Rheon tells EW, “Anyone who has asked me, ‘Who would you like Ramsay to meet?’ my answer has always been ‘Jon Snow.’ He’s the antithesis of Ramsay. They’re almost a yin and a yang. They both come from such a similar place yet they’re so different. And even though they’re enemies, they’ve both risen so far as bastards, which is almost incomprehensible, and now they’re both here facing each other. They couldn’t be any more different, yet more similar.”

bolton shieldsAnother great interview discussing the new episode is EW’s talk with “Battle of the Bastards” director Miguel Sapochnik. The director says he studied “every pitch field battle” he could find and used Akira Kurosawa’s classic RAN as a major reference to create the battle.

Sapochnik tells EW also, “Initially we based [Battle of the Bastards] on the battle of Agincourt which took place between the French and English in 1415. But as needs changed, as did budgets, it became more like the battle of Cannae between the Romans and Hannibal in 216 BC. The strategy and tactical aspect was a key thing for David and Dan. They wanted to specifically focus on that so that we could really see the way Ramsay ensnares and outguns Jon in the almost exactly the way the same way Davos had planned to defeat the Bolton army.”

Sapochnik confirms that Jon was the true target of Ramsay’s game with Rickon. “In the scenes leading up to the battle Sansa warns Jon not to fall for Ramsay’s tricks, which is exactly what he does. Rickon’s death is all just a ploy to bait Jon, and it’s incredibly successful,” he explains.

Check out the rest of the thorough and interesting interview over at Entertainment Weekly!


In Anatomy of a Scene: The Battle for Winterfell, David Benioff, D.B.Weiss, director Miguel Sapochnik, Kit Harington, Iwan Rheon, Sophie Turner, Dean S. Jagger and many more people discuss the staging and filming the battle, the use of the horses, how much VFX was used, and Ramsay’s beatdown in “Battle of the Bastards.”

David Benioff and D.B. Weiss discuss Tyrion and Daenerys’s reunion scene, their choices for the big battle and the decision to finish at Winterfell itself, and Ramsay’s fitting end.

Gemma Whelan and Emilia Clarke discuss the meeting of the new generation of queens, with Clarke suggesting “Get rid of Daario, bring on the ladies.”


Kit Harington, Sophie Turner
and Iwan Rheon share their characters’ feelings and thoughts in the pivotal battle.

365 responses

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    1. Sophie is so adorable. 🙂

      Although just like when Arya smiled at Polliver’s death in S4, I was kinda horrified to see Sansa smile at a man getting completely ripped apart by dogs, he had it coming and she’s got every reason to want him dead but still, that was dark.

      But still, Sophie is so fucking adorable.

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    2. Totally loved the video of Gemma and Emilia ..

      Correct me if iam wrong is this the first time we saw kit speak in an inside episodea this season…

      And iam still waiting if anyone will talk about what D&D are saying about Dany ..where are those who jumped and can’t stop quoting the Bender comment ..

      The smilinh face dany has when killing is just proves that’s how D&D write badass women as they did the same thing with sansa and arya ..

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    3. last nights episode was a thing of Brilliance….
      Miguel Sapochnik is definitely getting that Directing Emmy Nomination 😀

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    4. Matthew The Dragon knight:
      last nights episode was a thing of Brilliance….
      Miguel Sapochnik is definitely getting that Directing Emmy Nomination

      With the shortened season next year, i wonder if he’ll be able to do more than 2 episodes. Hopefully time will permit it.

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    5. Miguel should have that Emmy nomination on a hopeful lockdown. Jack Bender is also a possibility for 6×05, but I hope that Miguel takes away the statuette this year.

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    6. Heartbroken over losing Rickon and Wun Wun. I love that watching his little brother die made Jon pretty much go ape shit on everyone around him, including Ramsay.

      Speaking of Ramsay, I LOVED the last scene. Very powerful. Sophie and Iwan have great chemistry. The tension between Sansa and Ramsay was extremely palpable. I will miss Iwan greatly! He did a fantastic job playing a psychopath lmao.

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    7. Mihnea,

      If you think it would stop then you haven’t Learned anything about this fandom..

      More like this will be ignored as it never happened..

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    8. So the whole direction of this battle was to have Jon get completely rekt by Ramsay? Wow okay
      I wish D and D had spoken about Jon’s rebirth moment in Inside the Episode.
      Kit and Sophie discuss Jon not listening to Sansa, but say nothing about her withholding information.
      It’s all a bit disappointing.

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    9. So interesting considering Iwan was almost Jon Snow! He’s always so enthusiastic. What a long day that would have been, pretending to punch someone/be punched like 5 thousand times. Lol.

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    10. I think this episode guarantees emmy for Miguel and CGI department ..

      I don’t remember if they win award for CGI will it be mentioned for what scene it is winning or will it be mentioned as the episode as an whole

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    11. Last night’s episode thoroughly rocked! IMO, it lived up to all the hype.

      Rest in peace, Rickon & Wun-Wun. Rest in pieces, Ramsay, you POS.

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    12. Mihnea,

      Yeah its a relief to know how D&D view the character instead of wondering what they are trying to do ..

      For some reason I still can’t stop laughing at the black dress comment.

      Jenny,

      Ah OK then I wanted to see that dragons scene alone will be recognized and stand on their own

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    13. The banner makes me sad…”finale”

      Finales are so bittersweet. They are usually epic and have me on the edge of my seat, but then reality sinks in and the long night begins.

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    14. KevLS:
      Would have been better to have Ghost kill Ramsay.

      That would have been good but on the other hand having his own hounds tear him apart is rather prophetic given Roose’s mad dog comment ?

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    15. Great stuff

      Anatomy of a scene is fantastic

      The Kit, Sophie, Iwan thoughts is interesting, in particular the idea that Kit breaking through the crush is almost a bit like Dany being held aloft

      What Sophie is saying is a little odd though, she had perfect opportunity to speak up during the Plan scene. Tbf IMO the showrunners may be hedging their bets so I don’t blame the actors and actresses for not really having a coherent idea on what’s going on

      I think there is a juggling act, eg there’s the issue of them taking her North to merge with Jeyne Poole and be the subject of Pinkn Letter, but there’s also the possibility that if she does the Harry the Heir marriage thing and the Vale Army does go North, then this is exactly the type of intervention that occurs – indeed “may he fall off his stupid horse and hit his stupid head” may come into fruition in the equivalent book charge

      I actually really liked the Sansa/Ramsay scene, eg there’s something poetic about Ramsay not following Rooses advice literally coming back to bite him, he is obviously deluded, as the full Vale Army obviously means they do have plenty of men for any siege. and could storm it escalade style (ladders, no besieging encampment)

      The other side of the coin is my suspicion of Sansa as Lady Lothston Mk2, so in this case doing something like feeding a man to Dogs/Hounds is quite fitting. Especially given she is developing her own closeness to Hounds in the books. Indeed I wonder if she bends a certain Sandor Clegane Gravedigger to her will etc…There’s also the issue that the scene shows she’s learning off LF, eg Sansa is smart enough to screw Ramsays mind, eg he was insecure about being a bastard but she tells him his name and House and everything is gone

      Looking ahead I’m curious to see whether she goes south with the Vale Army and clashes with the Lannisters 8000 men over Tully lands, there was potential for this if BF escaped with 100 men or so but they may want to keep Vale Army in the North with impending White Walkers. All for off season speculation

      Only thing I missed perhaps is if the Vale Land Forces intervened earlier, so we see the dynamic twist from Bolton/Umbers/Karstarks on the offensive into a fighting retreat – a great way to protray the changing ebbs and flows and momentum of battle but oh well can’t get everything

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    16. I’m confused why they keep portraying this tension as Jon not listening to Sansa.

      She told them about the Blackfish, he believed her and they tried. The Blackfish didn’t come.

      She told him the North would rally to him, and he believed her and tried, and they didn’t really.

      In last night’s scene, he said to her TWICE “ok, you’re right, tell me what we should do differently.” And she never offered anything, no shred of information that might make him do anything differently, ie the Vale. She said, “we need more men,” to which he obviously responds YES I KNOW. But she never offers how those men could come.

      Why does this keep turning back to Jon not listening to her because he thinks she’s a silly girl and not – Sansa withholds information from him that might have made him do things differently?

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    17. Benioff said the shot of the calvary charging towards Jon is his favorite of the season. I hope we see the NK make it to the Wall. I think that could end up my favorite if it happens.

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    18. ghost of winterfell,

      Tbf it’s actually a kind of reflection of what happens via the PL in the books, eg Jon is lured into doing something rash and headstrong, not speaking to Mel first, on behalf of a supposed sibling under threat by Ramsay, fArya, so he intends to figuratively charge headlong at Winterfell due to his emotions and gets killed by Marsh etc for it

      In this case he gets lured in via sibling Rickon and puts himself into a situation where he is just about to get killed by arrows and the charging Cavalry which he realises

      So there may be something in him realising he was over-emotional in how he committed himself when it comes to later battles against WW’s etc?

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    19. Also, this episode did something that I just loved completely – Dany controls all three of her dragons and no one is binding them away from her.

      I believe someone else mentioned it – Geralt probably – but it seems confirmation that the show is doing away with the dragon has three heads. If I’m not mistaken, we’ve never heard that line in the show? I don’t think we’re getting three dragon riders. Those dragons are Dany’s, and Jon and Bran or Tyrion perhaps are metaphorically the other two parts of defeating the WWs, but I don’t think (hope!) other people will ride the dragons.

      The CGI is incredible but the one thing I personally think they (understandably) haven’t been able to nail is when Dany gets on and off Drogon, so limiting the number of humans that ride the dragons seems like a great idea.

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    20. Nadia:
      Also, this episode did something that I just loved completely – Dany controls all three of her dragons and no one is binding them away from her.

      I believe someone else mentioned it – Geralt probably – but it seems confirmation that the show is doing away with the dragon has three heads. If I’m not mistaken, we’ve never heard that line in the show? I don’t think we’re getting three dragon riders. Those dragons are Dany’s, and Jon and Bran or Tyrion perhaps are metaphorically the other two parts of defeating the WWs, but I don’t think (hope!) other people will ride the dragons.

      The CGI is incredible but the one thing I personally think they (understandably) haven’t been able to nail is when Dany gets on and off Drogon, so limiting the number of humans that ride the dragons seems like a great idea.

      I honestly think they nailed it. I love how Drogon put his wing out last night for Dany to climb on him. I think they are using a different mechanism this year, so Dany mounting and riding Drogn looks better this season compared to Daznak.

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    21. Great interview with Iwan Rheon! It was Ramsay’s time to die (and what a death it was!), but his performance was fantastic. It was gratifying to scroll down to the comments section of that article and see so many people expressing their appreciation for a thoughtful and sensitive actor who is about as far from his character as it’s possible to get. I’m looking forward to his Curtain Call later in the week.

      That Anatomy of a Scene video for the battle is amazing as well. The entire episode was a marvel, and it was great to get at least a brief look at all of the behind-the-scenes work that went in to making it so. Every member of the cast and crew who worked on that sequence should be very proud. They created something truly special that will be remembered for many years to come.

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    22. Jack Bauer 24,

      It looks MUCH MUCH better than Daznak I agree.

      But I still think the show is not going to show us three physical dragon riders, and I’m ok with that. Otherwise it’s like “the eagles are coming!” 😉

      But I also really just love the idea that ultimately the dragons are Dany’s, and whatever her fate is, she doesn’t need other people to control her dragons.

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    23. Well, sounds like Davos certainly is a great commander. I see him playing a very key role in the upcoming seasons, as he is the advisor Jon needs most, even more than Tormund (as fun as Tormund may be).

      Writing aside, I’m a huge fan of how they took inspiration from actual battles to set this up. Adds to the realism and made it something to enjoy, though it would have been great for the two armies to have switched roles…

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    24. anon,

      I think that’s what he meant too. Though there is literally no way for him to actually know that. Think he’s trying to get a final bit of mental torture in before his death there

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    25. I love how Sophie says this is Sansa’s “first kill,” intimating that there will be more. Hopefully, next episode even!

      Ok, dumb question but that was a white owl not a white raven flying near Winterfell in the preview for the finale right?

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    26. Nadia,

      I imagine because there’s a gulf between what the writers want the audience to take away from it and what many in the audience are based on the events that actually transpire onscreen.

      Nadia,

      Dragontaming is certainly a lot simpler in the show compared to the books. The main reason I can see why they’d bring in other riders would be so that the dragons can operate independently. But if there are going to be two other riders in the books, particularly if they’re main characters, I expect the show will keep that; they’d never miss giving Tyrion a dragon to ride, I expect, and that scene from early in the season seemed like it was hinting in that direction.

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    27. John:
      When did they return Ned’s body to Winterfell to be buried in the crypt?

      I was wondering that too. I assumed they got left in Renly’s camp when Cat and Brie fled. I suppose LF could have hung on to Ned’s remains and that they were interned when Sansa came to WF?

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    28. Sou,

      I really can’t see them have her go back to being dum-dum, easily manipulated Sansa from here. Even by LF.

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    29. Nadia,

      THIS. You’ve said it perfectly. This whole thing is incredibly nonsensical. She had every opportunity to speak up and she didn’t. Jon didn’t disrespect her in any way. And this whole idea that he should have listened to Sansa all along makes no sense.

      All her suggestions failed. Davos was right in episode 5 about the North being potentially difficult to rally, but she stubbornly insisted that “the North remembers”, and arrogantly told Davos he knew nothing of the North. Yet Davos is the one who got the Mormonts on their side. She was incapable of dealing with Lyanna Mormont and completely shut down by Robett Glover.
      The only valuable thing she had to offer was the information about the Vale that she withheld for no reason, allowing a slaughter to happen.

      The way I see it, she screwed up massively. Unfortunately, the writers clearly intended this to be a great triumph for her.

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    30. I bet I’ve watched the opening scene about thirty times and it wasn’t until about number twenty-five that I noticed Drogon flying way back by the pyramid during the “your reign is over” line. While not focusing on it I just thought it was debris falling. I guess it does explain Tyrion’s expression right after – he saw him coming too. 🙂

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    31. Fancy word for a sellsword: I was wondering that too. I assumed they got left in Renly’s camp when Cat and Brie fled. I suppose LF could have hung on to Ned’s remains and that they were interned when Sansa came to WF?

      Didn’t LF say he would have Ned’s remains returned to WF?

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    32. So I had a thought last night after the episode, when pulling my mind together after it’s been blown…

      What if… what if… bear with me…

      Brienne and Pod stumbles upon the Brotherhood on their way north… after all, they all seem to be heading into the same direction… it could be quite a big scene to have the Hound and Brienne meet up again, have her announce that she’s serving Sansa now and see the Hound react to that… not that I’m a SanSan fan at all, but it is undeniable that Sandor had a thing for the little bird, so that could definitly convince him to go north…

      And then I thought… eh ! Arya could pop up at Winterfell soon enough as well… possibly… and I had a big laugh !

      Could totally see all those characters meet up at Winterfell pretty soon (early next season) and it could be quite amazing !

      … Oh and Bran’s on his way as well… hehe, it’s a time for wolves !

      EDIT : Oh, and speaking of possible surprising character meeting next episode… I still think both Jorah and Sam could pop up at the Citadel at the same time… and why not have Euron in the area as well ?

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    33. Markus Stark,

      Yup, they intended Jon to be the total screw up here.

      Ghosts Lunch,

      Maybe. Right now I have no idea if they have any arc in mind for him. Jon thinking with his heart instead of his head and getting outsmarted as a result is something we already seen before. It just looks to me like his arc is regressing.

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    34. Jack Bauer 24:
      Do you think we’ll see BriPod in the finale?

      Absolutely, I just don’t know where. My instinct is that they’ll end up at Winterfell and Brienne will be the one to take care of Littlefinger.

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    35. Some people say the bird in the previews was a white falcon, some say an owl. To me, it looked like a … dove. But doves mean peace, and we know that’s not happening. I’ll go look again.

      Bran was in the previews for a split second – I truly thought he was going to have a huge influence on events this season, or be seen more that he was. He’s still in training, all the Starks in training, except maybe superArya, I guess she has graduated.

      All in all, it was an excellent episode, effects-wise and character-wise. The time has flown by. Soon it will be summer, and we will be devouring every little bit of filming info.

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    36. Thronetender:
      Some people say the bird in the previews was a white falcon, some say an owl. To me, it looked like a … dove. But doves mean peace, and we know that’s not happening. I’ll go look again.

      Bran was in the previews for a split second – I truly thought he was going to have a huge influence on events this season, or be seen more that he was. He’s still in training, all the Starks in training, except maybe superArya, I guess she has graduated.

      All in all, it was an excellent episode, effects-wise and character-wise. The time has flown by.Soon it will be summer, and we will be devouring every little bit of filming info.

      I think Bran is in front of a weirwood in the finale preview. Hopefully we’ll see the rest of ToJ.

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    37. Without everyone agreeing exactly how manipulative Sansa has been since her reunion with Jon, can everyone agree that a family conflict in the North is clearly set up going forward?

      Whether Littlefinger has romantic feelings for Sansa or not, he is clearly focused on consolidating his power. He has the Vale, and he seems to have the North through his control of Sansa. The only obstacle that threatens his hold on the North would be Jon – and he’s already been subtly trying to drive a wedge between Sansa and Jon.

      The show has set up a rift between Jon and Sansa – a rift that Jon might not even be aware of. At some point Sansa will have to choose between her brother and Littlefinger.

      I predict that Littlefinger knows Jon’s true lineage. Perhaps that trailer-scene in the weirwood of Winterfell is Littlefinger holding a secret meeting with Sansa, telling her the truth of Jon’s parentage and trying to solidify the pact between he and Sansa, against Jon.

      “Sansa, you are the true Queen of the North. You have my support. But if Jon is allowed to continue to build his power-base and if the truth of his parantage gets out, you will be reduced to being the King of the North’s sister. Help me make sure you get the crown you deserve.”

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    38. ghost of winterfell:
      So the whole direction of this battle was to have Jon get completely rekt by Ramsay? Wow okay
      I wish D and D had spoken about Jon’s rebirth moment in Inside the Episode.
      Kit and Sophie discuss Jon not listening to Sansa, but say nothing about her withholding information.
      It’s all a bit disappointing.

      From the next expisode’s preview it looks like those sibling trust issues will be addressed next week.

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    39. Markus Stark,

      As much as I hate the fact that Sansa lied to Jon for no logic reason, I think D&D are speaking from Sansa’s POV here and if you look at it from her POV, regaining Winterfell (regardless of the cost) and getting to be the one to end Ramsey’s life is indeed a triumph. Specially for someone who has been a hostage for several years and had little say in what happen to and in her life. It is infuriating to think that her trust issues could cause Jon harm and I will root against her if, and this is a big IF, she purposefully chooses to do something against her brother for selfish reasons, like ruling. However as of right now I choose to think the better of Sansa, to think that she’s a Stark and that loyalty to family comes before perceived power or a title.

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    40. So I’m guessing we’ll have a a few scenes that result in Jon being A okay with Sansa taking secret meetings, writing secret letters and making secret military plans with the man who sold her off to be brutalized while he and the Free Folk were sent out to be nearly crushed to death. “It’s okay Sansa, it doesn’t matter that I planned an entire military attack that almost resulted in all of our deaths without the knowledge that we might have thousands of mounted knights as reinforcements.”

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    41. It’s funny, when I Think about Joffrey now he seems so insignicant compared to the horror of Ramsay. He overlapped Joffrey as the shows main human villain. Now that he’s dead, I’m courious if Euron will overlap and become the shows third and final human villain, since that’s probably what’s happening in the books. I have a hard time seeing Euron have that much impact in the show, but perhaps. I Think we’ll get a clue as to that next week. Maybe he was just a ploy to get Yara and Theon moving, but Pilous coments makes me think his role is bigger. What do you Think? Will it just be the Night king now?

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    42. Halfman,

      I have no doubt that they will address the Vale and that Sansa didn’t tell him, regardless of the outcome. But I’m not sure how they retcon everyone talking about how Jon doesn’t listen to her because she’s a silly girl. I don’t know, it doesn’t ring true to what I saw on the screen. It’s never seemed in Jon’s character to dismiss someone because they’re a woman. That’s NEVER been Jon’s problem – he listens to those who others think are fat, the enemies, or useless (Sam, the Wildlings, women, etc).

      He did listen to her, but if she’s not telling him something, how can he react to that thing?

      Their conversation:

      Sansa: Don’t do the thing you’re doing!
      Jon: Ok, tell me what to do differently
      Sansa: I don’t know, just not the thing you’re doing! ….and proceeds not to mention the Vale.

      What, exactly, should he have done differently? Conceivably the only thing he should’ve done was accept Rickon as dead meat and not react to it. That’s the thing that Sansa did right. But is that because Jon doesn’t listen to silly girls?

      Ultimately, they BOTH don’t really understand the others’ perspective or what they’ve both been through, which I think episode 10 will highlight.

      Some of the disconnect might just be because they’ve never talked about Jon being killed and brought back to life and the WW, whereas they have explored Sansa’s feelings about Ramsay. It’s been such a curious choice to me, that we see so clearly Sansa’s feelings and resolution to her Ramsay arc, but the two of them have never had a conversation that Jon was killed and resurrected and that he’s fought White Walkers beyond the Wall? It’s strange. Again, that conversation this episode happens with Mel and Mel alone.

      Just have a real conversation you two!

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    43. Fancy word for a sellsword: I was wondering that too. I assumed they got left in Renly’s camp when Cat and Brie fled. I suppose LF could have hung on to Ned’s remains and that they were interned when Sansa came to WF?

      It may also be that Jon, being cut from it all for so long, assumes that this is where Lord Stark’s remains are.

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    44. I can’t bear everyone saying how Jon messed up. Maybe he did get lured in by Ramsay, but he stood and fought it out with his entire being, his whole heart and soul. You can see in the instant he realizes that Ramsay’s mean are almost upon him, he take a second to come to terms with what must surely be his death. He doesn’t cower or piss himself, he stands his ground.

      I, too, loved the scene of his own men coming around him, saving him from the onslaught. Kit’s acting was phenomenal. He has the essence of this complicated man down perfectly. I couldn’t help thinking of him telling Edd he wanted to go someplace warm. He should have been walking the beaches in the south, yet, there he was facing that onslaught, climbing out of that mountain of death, avenging his brothers and sisters whatever way he could. Long after the series is done, I will be remembering, happily, Jon Snow the character and Kit the excellent actor.

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    45. Fancy word for a sellsword,

      This is what I think too, but what’s her leverage? I mean she has like zero army left. Unless this is where the Manderlys and the rest of the Northern Houses decide to stand by the Starks. That would be cool. Actually see the old weasel get stabbed in the back.

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    46. “Hello again, Lord Glover. Remember when you wouldn’t help us.. told us the Stark house was dead? Let’s go inside my new castle here in Deepwood Motte, and have a little chat.”

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    47. orange,

      But, from Jon’s perspective, is there time for quarrels with one sister’s when there’s a major war to prepare for? Jon died, he got murdered by his own men, Sansa lying to him is one more shitty thing he probably chooses to set aside because there are bigger problems to figure out. The dead are dead, they were going to be dead regardless. There’s nothing to be done with them except burn them. I hope they remember to do that, especially Wun Wun. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not excusing Sansa’s actions here, I do think she has a fair amount of responsibility for the people who perished and I hope she realizes that but still Jon and the North have no time for quarrels, they must get ready.

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    48. Laura,

      Raven, it’s how the Citadel announces the changing of seasons. IE the official “winter is here” proclamation. they don’t use the white ravens for carrying messages, just announcing seasonal change.
      Thronetender,

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    49. Lyanna Mormont’s “bitch please” face at Ramsay gives me life. More of her forever PLEASE. Just her face, reacting to LF. I need it.

      Also, holy shit the white raven. Winds of Winter!!!!

      (Are we going to see Sam at all again, in the Citadel?)

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    50. Sou,

      My understanding is that the Silent Sisters are a neutral faction that are left alone by just about everyone, they had Ned’s remains & had instructions to return them to WF.

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    51. I don’t see how Jon’s actions were stupid. It was indeed irrational to run towards Bolton cavalry but, damn, it’s his little brother, who is scared and runs for his life! I don’t blame Jon all, anybody would do the same thing. His family are the people he cares the most and it was in his character to do everything he could as long as there is a bit of hope to save Rickon.

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    52. Yikes, the computer just told me I did not have permission to edit my own comment, even with time left on the ticker. I hope that’s a one time thing, I always go back to try to catch my errors from typing too fast.

      What I wanted to add to that comment was the fact that John ALWAYS asks everyone around him for advice. At the end of season 4, after the battle at the wall, when he is striding out to go talk with Mance, Sam is wildly trying to stop him. Jon’s reply is “Yes, it’s a bad plan. What’s YOUR plan?” and isn’t that the whole problem in a nutshell? Everyone always telling him his ideas are bad, but having nothing of substance to with which to replace them?

      As much as I admire Sansa’s tenacity and new-found strength, I, too, am mystified as to why she didn’t tell him of the possibility of the Vale army coming. That doesn’t take away from my admiration of her that she had the idea of trying to get them to come and followed through with it. Her actions ended up saving the day, no matter what vitriol the Sansa-haters spew at her. Hopefully the remaining seasons will show the Starks learning to come together in a more cohesive way. However haphazard the events were, though, the Stark banners are on the walls of Winterfell once again, and that’s a good thing.

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    53. Done my second re-watch

      The Dany/Vara/Tyrion/Theon scene is a tad clunky

      Eg I seem to recall Tyrion giving Theon crap as a backstory for the Greyjoy rebellion in S1E3 I think it was

      Guess it comes with shoehorning them into Victarions place amongst other things

      The whole “better place” thing is a bit odd too, after all the Greyjoy words are “we do not sow” so if they can’t reave etc…will wait and see where this is going, eg she’s seemingly gone back to “Break the Wheel” while only a few episodes ago was going on about how she’s a Conqueror etc etc

      Some small things, noticed Melisandre had some greyish hair showing when the Stark banners came down, obviously her vision of the Bolton banners came correct and she is heading back in a confident and possibly cocky direction, eg she is healing from that “Old Woman” mode in E1

      Reckon she may get shot down by Davos next week

      Of course the same is perhaps correct of High Sparrow, who Pryce said gets cocky but then it sounds increasingly like the place gets blown up now that Tyrion name-dropped the cache under the Sept of Baelor

      Mentioned Rickon scene was like Pink Letter

      But Jon drawing the sword in the face of the oncoming Cavalry actually reminded me a lot of Stannis doing the same, so an interesting theme there that they have gone over the same ground and campsite as Stannis but achieved the opposite outcome etc

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    54. Sou,

      I would think that she would expose him to the Lords of the Vale, first, to erode his power base

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    55. anon:
      I interpreted “I’m inside you now” to mean she’s pregnant with his baby.We’ll see next episode I assume.

      Unfortunately, you may be right. I have been one of those naive Sansa fans that has always denied her being pregnant, but they sure have been insinuating that she might be, haven’t they? First Sansa told LF that she could still feel what Ramsay did to her inside of her, and then Ramsay told her last night that he was a part of her. Granted, what they said could be interpreted a couple of ways, but one of those ways is ultimately hinting at a pregnancy. Logically, it is possible, especially since Sansa told Theon that Ramsay used to come to her every night. How long was she in Winterfell? Maybe a month or two?

      I suspect they might continue to hint at it in the finale. They might address the issue next episode, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they held all of that off until S7.

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    56. To me, the conflict is over Ned vs. Catelyn.

      Ned would have run after Benjen, just like Jon ran after Rickon.

      Catelyn would have mentally said goodbye to Edmure, just like Sansa did Rickon.

      This makes sense. Jon was raised by Ned, not Catelyn. Jon respected her as Lady of the House, but didn’t love her because she gave him no reason to. Sansa loved her father, but really had nothing in common with him. She is her mother’s daughter.

      I keep coming back to this. Littlefinger has agency too. It’s entirely possible he didn’t get back to Sansa in time. Or that he insisted on hanging back. From his point of view, he lost very few men; Jon lost the bulk of his; Rickon (a trueborn male) was killed. The head of House Umber was killed and none of the other houses can stand up to the Vale Army if Littlefinger really forced the issue.

      He had every motivation not to want Jon to know and he was the one with the leverage. No one wants to talk about this, least of all Sophie and the grrrrrl power types, but Sansa coud have gotten played big-time.

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    57. In terms of Sansa, personally will apply a “wait and see” approach

      Eg I suspect in the books she may come up with HtH as I’ve said etc so this is something of an awkward shoe-horn

      But in terms of the show, there’s the Jon-Ramsay dynamic, eg the Pink Letter and all that, but the show has Sansa/Ramsay and the anture of power within their relationship, eg think of the “bastard” conversation, so when the Vale turns up it seems that Sansa has outmaneaovered Ramsay etc

      Ultimately will have to see how the post-battle conversation goes next week

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    58. Danny,

      Ah, I didn’t know about the white-raven thing. Thanks all who set me straight. LOL, to me it looked like a dove, and I was trying to remember who it was that used to call Sansa “little dove” all the time. Cersei, I think. Then I thought, oh good, news of the triumph of the “little dove” in the North is going to reach her ears and she’ll be really annoyed, so much so that the news could be her tipping point. But I think there are enough events afoot in KL to tip her towards Wildfire already, including the realization that she actually sent Jaime away, thinking the Mountain would protect her.

      Sandor, when he was the Hound, used to call her something – oh, little bird.

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    59. I think from reading the comments here that I might be the only person who thinks Sansa did the right thing by not telling Jon she wrote to Littlefinger. The problem she faces is that if she has gained any intelligence on battle plans is that you cannot make a plan for troops that you can’t count on having and if she knows this telling Jon that the Knights of the Vale might come is the worst thing she could do. Jon must plan for the troops he knows he has and if he makes a plan counting on the Vale and they don’t show up could result in a massacre.

      The other problem that the show doesn’t address is the true bane of any army’s existence, supplies. As the old saying goes amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics. We can probably assume that Jon’s army only has a limited amount of supplies and that could very well be why Jon is so adamant that their army must attack Ramsey now.

      Summing it up Sansa sent a letter with no idea if Littlefinger will help or not after their meeting at Molestown. She’s basically hoping for a miracle and by telling Jon about it all she can do is sow confusion when he makes plans for the forces he has.
      The best thing she could do is exactly what she did and silently pray that the Vale Knights show up.

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    60. Jack Bauer 24,

      That could add more fire to the Jon-Sansa schism. Jon could be like, “Let’s hang her!” and Sansa could be like, “No, we need her! Davos is useless!”

      And… FIGHT!

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    61. anon,

      He said “Im a part of you now” I think he meant that metaphorically, due to what he did to her. I doubt she is pregnant with his kid. Its kind of an annoying theory, they would have hinted towards it by now, its been literally a whole season with no morning sickness, no bigger stomach, nothing. If she turns out preggo, that will be really bad writing at this point.

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    62. The Iron Islands might agree to give up reaving.. but there are ways around it. The difference between a pirate and a privateer is a piece of paper, and even after she theoretically conquers Westeros, Dany would have lots of enemies with ports and navies.

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    63. anon,

      I think it’s more that he’s changed her completely. Everyone’s said that. She’s back in Winterfell, but she’s nothing like who she used to be. She’s more like LF, she even understands Ramsay’s mind games. She doesn’t trust people easily, not even her own brother, all because Ramsay changed her.

      It’s his way of taunting her till the end.

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    64. Loved the episode though, definitely the best, I would put it above the Red Wedding episode cuz the Red Wedding is all I remember from that episode. This one had it all, Dany and the complete beatdown of the Masters, to the Bastards Battle as well.

      Im also glad to point out how WRONG so many people were about their on set spoilers all year saying that Rickon was gonna get burned on the X, so HAHA! Y’all were wrong! The writers are smarter than that, lol. It was pretty much a given that he was gonna die when he ended up in the hands of Ramsey, it was just a matter of how that was gonna happen. Well done by the “little game,” perfectly fitting for Ramsey and a great way to get Jon off his game, much more meaningful for him to see his little brother die right in front of him as he tried to save him.

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    65. So might be in the minority here cause I literally see no-one talking about it… scene where Davos is walking before the battle. Finds the pyre where Shireen was burned. Camera pans outward with the Onion Knight on a hill dawns first light glowing behind him and in the distance you hear a horn. Not one blast, not two, but three horn blasts…
      … … The wall is being attacked, and three horn blasts mean the Others
      wall coming down next episode … get hyped

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    66. Grayven Reyne:
      thurg00d420,

      If Sansa were pregnant.. her scripted lines since jumping from the walls would be interspersed with “Moon tea?Got some moon tea?Anyone?”

      Or when Ramsay said “I’m a part of you now” she could have said “You were. I had your trueborn heir growing inside me. But I drank enough moon tea to kill Wun Wun. Choke on that, Lord Bolton.” Or uhh, something like that.

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    67. Thronetender:
      I can’t bear everyone saying how Jon messed up. Maybe he did get lured in by Ramsay, but he stood and fought it out with his entire being, his whole heart and soul. You can see in the instant he realizes that Ramsay’s mean are almost upon him, he take a second to come to terms with what must surely be his death. He doesn’t cower or piss himself, he stands his ground.

      I, too, loved the scene of his own men coming around him, saving him from the onslaught. Kit’s acting was phenomenal. He has the essence of this complicated man down perfectly. I couldn’t help thinking of him telling Edd he wanted to go someplace warm. He should have been walking the beaches in the south, yet, there he was facing that onslaught, climbing out of that mountain of death, avenging his brothers and sisters whatever way he could. Long after the series is done, I will be remembering, happily, Jon Snow the character and Kit the excellent actor.

      Absolutely!! He is certainly the hero and I’m with Liam Cunningham, he deserves awards for his portrayal as he is not the typical hero as so often appears on our screens.

      The way I see it is that now winter is really imminent, as Davos says “this isn’t about a few squabbling houses” it’s about the war between the living and the dead.

      From what I’ve seen, they are now bringing the north back together so there will be unity in the war to come. We’ve had casting info suggesting northern lords we haven’t seen are yet to appear. This suggests to me that the northern houses will be bending the knee to House Stark. Personally I believe that it will be Jon they swear allegiance to although I know some will disagree with me as he is a bastard. That’s my call and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong but I really don’t think I am.

      Sansa is now in a difficult position……from the trailer LF tells her he thought she knew what he wanted. Marriage?? She won’t want to marry LF!!! Not in this lifetime.

      I’m also very curious as to why Jaime is at the Frey party. Why hasn’t he gone south back to KL? I notice the press I’ve read about the preview so far are all assuming the feast is taking place at River Run, but it isn’t, it’s at the Twins. Why has he travelled up there? Anyone any thoughts on that?

      Ayra is on her way back to Westeros and Walder Frey is on her list. The Hound is in the area as well, and Brienne and Pod are on route to WF. All these people being placed strategically where they can cross paths! Not a coincidence I don’t think. Can’t wait!!

      Edit: And where has Karstark sneaked off to? If he’d been killed, they surely would have shown that.

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    68. Ogre7778,

      It could have led to Ramsey hiding out behind the walls of Winterfell if he somehow got wind that the Vale was gonna show up as well, so yeah, it was good of her to not tell him. Wun Wun probably woulda just broke down the door anyway.

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    69. Halfman: Absolutely!! He is certainly the hero and I’m with Liam Cunningham, he deserves awards for his portrayal as he is not the typical hero as so often appears on our screens.

      The way I see it is that now winter is really imminent, as Davos says “this isn’t about a few squabbling houses” it’s about the war between the living and the dead.

      From what I’ve seen, they are now bringing the north back together so there will be unity in the war to come. We’ve had casting info suggesting northern lords we haven’t seen are yet to appear. This suggests to me that the northern houses will be bending the knee to House Stark. Personally I believe that it will be Jon they swear allegiance to although I know some will disagree with me as he is a bastard. That’s my call and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong but I really don’t think I am.

      Sansa is now in a difficult position……from the trailer LF tells her he thought she knew what he wanted. Marriage?? She won’t want to marry LF!!! Not in this lifetime.

      I’m also very curious as to why Jaime is at the Frey party. Why hasn’t he gone south back to KL? I notice the press I’ve read about the preview so far are all assuming the feast is taking place at River Run, but it isn’t, it’s at the Twins. Why has he travelled up there? Anyone any thoughts on that?

      I’m actually worried for Jaime. Didn’t Javi say in the off season that fans are going to be upset with what happens in the finale with Jaime and Arya?

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    70. Nadia,

      Redheads. Place is a sausage fest. She wants to annoy Davos. Littlefinger sees a potential to exploit still more conflict.

      OR… the “trial” we saw is not Davos running his concerns through the chain of command, but what happens after he attacks Melisandre and this is HIS trial.

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    71. Javi Marcos from Los Siete Reinos a Spanish GoT site. I believe he has inside sources like Sue/WotW and during this past off season he said something about Jaime and fans being upset or something of the like. I believe he said it would be “controversial” and he mentioned Arya and Jaime.

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    72. Oh look….character regression!

      Curious to see if they brush aside the whole issue with the Vale army. Probably.

      Funny how people view Ned’s honor as a negative thing. Yes, it didn’t help him in KL, but it earned him respect in the North where he kept the peace for all those years as Warden. Clearly he was doing something right.

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    73. Arkash,

      I see them getting togther as you state, but to go to The Frey celebration and the rest. They are the most likely to carry on that. If Arya shows up, it’s going to be so disappointing…

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    74. The episode somehow managed to be even worse than I expected. Talk about pandering.
      They’re lucky they had Meereen though.
      Never thought I’d ever say that.

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    75. I felt like there was a bit of a parallel between Stannis sacrificing his family and losing his army and their respect and Jon choosing to sacrifice himself for his family and securing the loyalty and respect of his troops. Those people were willing to die for him.

      There was also an interesting remark in the episode about how people won’t fight for those who won’t fight for them, and seeing Jon fight and suffer side by side with everyone is going to help him win others over. I hope at least 😉

      Did we ever find out what happened to Lord Karstark? I’m weirdly fixated on this issue.

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    76. Sansa in her post battle plan commentary, after Jon says “I won’t let him touch you ever again, I will protect you” Sansa…”No One can protect me, No One can protect anyone.” So Arya kills Littlefinger?

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    77. What’s interesting to me are the commenters set to crucify Sansa for withholding information (that could’ve potentially changed the battle) but saying Jon literally made no mistakes, even though this is totally negated by what D&D and Kit actually say. Sansa played to her emotional tendency to hide and conceal because of mistrust; Jon played to his emotional tendency of “brave, but stupid” (thanks Ygritte) and honor and chivalry over tactics and forethought. He screwed over everyone in his army by destroying their plan and charging headlong, letting Ramsey get under his skin with Rickon. Yes it’s understandable, but so is Sansa’s hiding her cards. They’re pretty much flip sides of the same Stark coin in an interesting way, and a good Ned/Catelyn dynamic.

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    78. Jack Bauer 24,

      I hope Bran communicates to Sansa through the weirnet so she knows what Littlefinger did to Ned — and she kills Littlefinger right there with her needle necklace. Blood sacrifice to the Old Gods.

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    79. Danny:
      Markus Stark,

      As much as I hate the fact that Sansa lied to Jon for no logic reason, I think D&D are speaking from Sansa’s POV here and if you look at it from her POV, regaining Winterfell (regardless of the cost) and getting to be the one to end Ramsey’s life is indeed a triumph.Specially for someone who has been a hostage for several years and had little say in what happen to and in her life.It is infuriating to think that her trust issues could cause Jon harm and I will root against her if, and this is a big IF, she purposefully chooses to do something against her brother for selfish reasons, like ruling.However as of right now I choose to think the better of Sansa, to think that she’s a Stark and that loyalty to family comes before perceived power or a title.

      It would have been a better victory, if she had not lied to Jon. She sacrificed Rickon’s life. His blood is on her hands as much as it is on Ramsay’s. It is a tainted victory, from a desperate woman and I can’t forgive her for that.

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    80. schase,

      It would have been just as bad (if not worse) to not try and rescue Rickon. Jon would have never forgiven himself for not trying to save him. He already had regrets from not being able to help Ned, Robb, Bran, and Rickon (when Theon took Winterfell). I also think it would have ruined the character. Fans would have skinned Jon alive for this. Not to mention, with Bran missing, Rickon is the rightful Lord of Winterfell (and family). He’s one of the reasons Jon and Sansa even started this campaign. Jon would have lost the respect of many.

      Did he make a mistake? Yes.

      Is it understandable? Yes. (How many wouldn’t want to save their family?)

      He gave Sansa plenty of chances to come clean and tell him. I think this is infuriating. It’s not a case of Jon not listening to her, because in the scenes the writers themselves put in the script, he listened.

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    81. John:
      When did they return Ned’s body to Winterfell to be buried in the crypt?

      Ned’s body is en route from Riverrun. Barbrey Dustin has vowed to prevent Ned’s body from reaching Winterfell. Interesting to see what happens. Maybe something about that will get Jon down into the crypts for the hinted at reveal.

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    82. This was nowhere near as good as Hardhome or Watchers on the Wall. And I won’t even go compare it to Blackwater which is miles ahead.

      Actually this was one of the few times I liked Daenerys scenes. Finally she did something.

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    83. Flayed Potatoes,

      That’s the point though. They’re understandable mistakes. As a viewer with third-person omniscient, of COURSE we know that Sansa should tell Jon. From her point of view, she’s not going to trust shit. She’s not going to reveal her trump card; she’s not going to divulge any extraneous power she had; she’s not going to go against Brienne’s advice and trust Davos. I mean, from their viewpoint he’s sketch as hell. If Sansa learned anything from seasons 1-5, it’s loose lips sink ships. I guess I alone am unsurprised that she withheld information. She’s finally started playing the game.

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    84. Flayed Potatoes:
      Halfman,

      We’re the only ones on #KarstarkWatch it seems lol.

      If he was killed, surely it would have been on screen. If he’s alive, then he’s fled and he has a problem. I hope they don’t leave it open ended.

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    85. Markus Stark:
      Nadia,

      THIS. You’ve said it perfectly. This whole thing is incredibly nonsensical. She had every opportunity to speak up and she didn’t. Jon didn’t disrespect her in any way. And this whole idea that he should have listened to Sansa all along makes no sense.

      All her suggestions failed. Davos was right in episode 5 about the North being potentially difficult to rally, but she stubbornly insisted that “the North remembers”, and arrogantly told Davos he knew nothing of the North. Yet Davos is the one who got the Mormonts on their side. She was incapable of dealing with Lyanna Mormont and completely shut down by Robett Glover.
      The only valuable thing she had to offer was the information about the Vale that she withheld for no reason, allowing a slaughter to happen.

      The way I see it, she screwed up massively. Unfortunately, the writers clearly intended this to be a great triumph for her.

      I agree with you! I can’t forgive her for lying to Jon like this. The whole face of the battle could have changed. less lives would have been lost. Maybe even Rickon’s. You an really tell how screwed up in the head she is.

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    86. schase,

      I think they complement each other well, but they BOTH wrongly think that they “get it” when they don’t.

      Sansa says herself, she doesn’t understand battles at all, and she didn’t understand the Northerns, but she was totally right about how Ramsay’s mind worked.

      Jon understands battle, but he doesn’t always understand darker human motivations – he didn’t understand the men of the NW and he didn’t understand Ramsay.

      So in theory they make a really good team, and thus this Vale plot kind of feels like manufactured drama. I think the problem is where the show tries to portray it as Jon not listening because she’s a silly girl and totally senseless and Sansa is a brilliant strategist who saves the day, rather than that she’s also been wrong in this whole affair.

      Literally multiple times he said, Ok, tell me what to do, tell me what to do differently. She didn’t offer anything. He listened to her about the Blackfish. He listened to her about trying to rally the North.

      I think some of this imbalance is that they’ve spoken about what Sansa went through with Ramsay, but they’ve never spoken about Jon’s experience that we’ve seen – fighting the WWs, being resurrected.

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    87. Halfman: If he was killed, surely it would have been on screen. If he’s alive, then he’s fled and he has a problem. I hope they don’t leave it open ended.

      Yeah I was curious about this, Smalljon Umber definetely led the infantry, but didn’t see Karstark after the opening moments of the battle

      The Karstark infantry were committed, as we saw their shields

      On one hand it would have been nice to see Vale infantry vs Karstark infantry, but I suspect he’s run back and we’ll have some post battle overtures

      Eg maybe they’ll make peace?

      Does seem there’s set to be some post-battle meeting of the Lords

      This seemed a bit odd but on the other hand all those Houses that didn’t take part have fresh troops for any upcoming battles involing White Walkers?

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    88. schase,

      The problem is that she’s playing the game against people she doesn’t have to play with: her family. Margaery plays the game, but she doesn’t play against her family. Olenna too. And these are people Sansa supposedly learned from.

      Jon gave her plenty of opportunities to be upfront. If he hadn’t, her secrecy would have been understandable.

      Halfman,

      Maybe he’s a Faceless Man 😛

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    89. schase,

      Um, that man was going into battle to fight for both her brothers and her home. If she didn’t trust him at that point, she’s as dumb as some people think and i REFUSE to believe that. If at that point it’s about wanting to keep information and a trump card to herself, I will loathe her, because that’s just wanting power at the expense of thousands of deaths.
      Far more likely, I assume, is that she just didn’t know they were coming, not that the night before the battle she still doesn’t want to tell Davos about the Vale (wtf?!)

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    90. Clob: I bet I’ve watched the opening scene about thirty times and it wasn’t until about number twenty-five that I noticed Drogon flying way back by the pyramid during the “your reign is over” line.

      I’ve watched the episode twice and the opening segment about six times so far, and I noticed Drogon right at my first viewing! I was so anxiously waiting for a sighting of him. 🙂 But it wasn’t until my second viewing that I noticed that Daenerys puts out her left hand a bit and Drogon lands to her left and then she withdraws her hand. The sign language between Mom and Drogon worked perfectly and he knew exactly where to land and to fold his right wing for her to climb up. Her control over Drogon is total! Also, while most people on the dock turned and/or flinched when Drogon arrived and landed on the top of the pyramid, Daenerys didn’t move a muscle but stared straight ahead at the masters. She knew exactly what he would do.

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    91. Flayed Potatoes,

      Well she also learned from Cersei and Tyrion, who were constantly playing against their families. Yes, she doesn’t need to play against her family, but she has had to drag poor Jon kicking and screaming into all this. We’ll see what’s revealed next episode, but part of me thinks she kept it secret from Jon because she didn’t want Ramsey to know their true force numbers. Jon’s strengths don’t lie in strategy, tactics, duplicity, or deceit, which makes a good hero, but not a great foil for Ramsey.

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    92. schase,

      It’s a strange comparison.

      Sansa has been wrong about many things, we’ve seen it. She was, however, right in that she accepted that Rickon was dead and thus held her emotions in check about it. But then again, she wasn’t down on the battlefield. If she had been there, would she have just stood there and let Rickon be shot and killed? It’s a choice Sansa doesn’t have to make.

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    93. Nadia:
      I’m confused why they keep portraying this tension as Jon not listening to Sansa.

      She told them about the Blackfish, he believed her and they tried. The Blackfish didn’t come.

      She told him the North would rally to him, and he believed her and tried, and they didn’t really.

      In last night’s scene, he said to her TWICE “ok, you’re right, tell me what we should do differently.” And she never offered anything, no shred of information that might make him do anything differently, ie the Vale. She said, “we need more men,” to which he obviously responds YES I KNOW. But she never offers how those men could come.

      Why does this keep turning back to Jon not listening to her because he thinks she’s a silly girl and not – Sansa withholds information from him that might have made him do things differently?

      I think that video was a attempt to shift the blame off of Sansa and onto Jon. I’m not fooled by it though. Jon did the bst he could with the little that he had. Sansa is the one who lied, and kept vital infro, and to me, that makes her the screw-up.

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    94. Nadia,

      Yeah this is an interesting point, eg Sansa is learning the psychology of rulership etc wheras Jon is capable battle Commander type but not necassarily a politician

      It reminds me a bit of the Baratheons, eg Robert and Stannis are excellent soldiers, not so great as politicians, Renly was a fantastic politician but not quite the military man. It’s a bit of a shame Renly and Stannis killed eachother off, as a team they could have been quite potent, eg Renly would have been a good Hand to Stannis (well, book Renly at least)

      In terms of Sansa as a Queen figure, Having Blackfish at her side would have been very good, eg she’s politically minded, but then needs a military commander

      In terms of Jon as a King figure, great in battle etc, some leadership ability policy wise but he would need a good politician next to him as Hand, eg a Tyrion, Varys or dare I say trustworthy Littlefinger

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    95. Ghosts Lunch,

      The latter is why I don’t think we’re going to see the end of LF any time soon. Still, I’m not sure how he sticks around supporting Jon/Sansa without Sansa promising him herself. Intrigue!

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    96. schase,

      Yeah she learned from Cersei…and how is Cersei doing now?

      Oh wait….

      Though to be fair, Cersei was seriously gunning for Tyrion when she thought he killed her son.

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    97. Nadia,

      I think Sansa trusts Davos about as far as she can throw him.

      “Davos and the Red Woman helped a man murder his own brother with blood magic. And when Stannis paid for his crime, where were they? Already out looking for a leader with better prospects.” –Brienne

      “Jon isn’t Davos, or Tormund, or the Red Woman…Jon is Jon, he’s my brother, he’ll keep me safe.” –Sansa

      So judging from the previous dialogue, she trusts Jon, but doesn’t trust his counsel.

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    98. Nadia,

      That’s the point. Sansa makes choices only Sansa could make. Jon makes choices only Jon could make. Hypotheticals don’t really hold up. I mean, could Jon handle what Sansa went through with Joffrey or Ramsey? Could he manipulate Littlefinger? Never. Different characters have different strengths, and expecting everyone to operate from the same set of characteristics and moral guidelines will get you nowhere.

      moonlightof1982,
      I extrapolate what I can from videos. I mean, if you can’t trust the directors and the actors to have more knowledge and about their characters…. well, I don’t know what you’re going with. The best insight on a character in a television show is going to be from the actor who portrays them IMO. Kit says Jon screwed up, then he screwed up.

      Flayed Potatoes,
      And Tyrion? Learning from Cersei doesn’t imply that all lessons were valuable or good.

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    99. Halfman: Me too. I’ve mentioned it a couple of times but no one took me up on it lol.

      Well guys, Karstark looks like noone in particular, so no way to find out unless you watch the whole battle frame by frame.
      It was easier with Umber because the guy had this imposing physique, plus I think they played a little bit with waiting to see if there is any chance he would change sides (well, he didn’t).
      But Karstark, with that face, go figure.

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    100. Nadia,

      Yeah, I mentioned it. It was clear she controls them so there goes popular three dragon riders theory. Wish R+L%J was wrong too because Jon is not or never will be a But you know this theory is likely true Targaryen. He has no emotional connection to them and doubt it will change all of sudden. Why should he care about them, he never knew them. He’s Stark through and through.

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    101. schase,

      I don’t see what she learned from Tyrion. But the Lannisters went downhill after Tyrion killed Tywin, so here you go.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Jack Bauer 24:
      Javi Marcos from Los Siete Reinos a Spanish GoT site. I believe he has inside sources like Sue/WotW and during this past off season he said something about Jaime and fans being upset or something of the like. I believe he said it would be “controversial” and he mentioned Arya and Jaime.

      You know, people keep on referencing this, and all I can find is that Javi knows where Jaime is at the end of the season and that he knows his final “frame” (plus Arya’s, plus Dany and Tyrion’s). I’d really like someone to link evidence of him calling it controversial and saying that fans will be upset. I don’t think he said that.

      If it makes anyone worried about Jaime feel better, in the two preview shots at the Twins from next week, Jaime clearly seems to be sitting at the head of a table with his back turned to Walder in one shot, and then when WF stands up to toast and everyone joins in, Jaime no longer seems to be there.

      Also, we seem to have yet to see NCW in anything that resembles Iceland filming.

      I don’t think Jaime is dying. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

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    103. KevLS:
      Would have been better to have Ghost kill Ramsay.

      What’s a Ghost? Oh right. One of the Direwolves that are supposed to be inseparably bonded to the Stark children. Maybe now that Wun Wun is gone, they can spare a few bucks to at least show him taking a nap. Or maybe he’s just been disappeared like Tiger from the 1st season of the Brady Bunch.

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    104. Kay,

      IT was pretty bad ass, and Drogon is a sight to behold. When she mounted him it didn’t seem cheesy this time. I guess the key is in the camera angles.

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    105. Flayed Potatoes,

      I believe this is one reason why Dan called Sansa “not a pure Stark” those words make sense now. Starks are loyal to each other and would have too much honor to do family that way.

        Quote  Reply

    106. anon:
      I interpreted “I’m inside you now” to mean she’s pregnant with his baby.We’ll see next episode I assume.

      Yes, Sansa’s still pregnant and not yet showing even though she left Winterfell a year ago. The baby is a tiny one, obviously, like Tyrion, and so he doesn’t need much room. Maybe the baby is Tyrion’s, actually, from that time they almost had sex two and a half years ago.

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    107. moonlightof1982,

      One thing that bothered me to is when she notices in the distance Jon with Tormund and Wun wun running after Ramsay after the battle there is an indiscernible expression on her face whereas I expected to see a look of joy or relief that her brother made it out alive.

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    108. Halfman,

      In the trailer for next week we see Jon telling Sansa they have to trust each other because they have many enemies. If the north declares for Jon and the Boltons were pretty much wiped out I assume he’s talking about Lannister/Freys?

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    109. kit_hepburn,

      Something tells me Lannister army is at the Twins for a reason. When walkers come but with Jaime hard to say. Can’t see him dying but not going North.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Thronetender:
      Some people say the bird in the previews was a white falcon, some say an owl. To me, it looked like a … dove. But doves mean peace, and we know that’s not happening. I’ll go look again.

      I think it was a white raven, http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/White_raven, because white ravens symbolize winter: The Winds of Winter. Of course, I thought winter finally came several seasons back, but this season has been all about the end of summer and the beginning of winter. The next episode should be even more so.

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    111. ygritte,

      At first, I honestly thought Ramsey was luring them into a trap. Seeing her brother run into Ramsey’s stronghold with two other people isn’t not something to get yippy skippy about.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Yes, Houses Lannister and Frey remain enemies of House Stark. But don’t forget about Karstark…where is that weasel? And Littlefinger is everyone’s enemy. He’s always up to something bad.

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    113. Chills at the Jon-Dany comparison. An incredible bit of shooting, though please no more suffocating of Jon.

      Dee Stark,

      These are great–thanks for sharing! #kittensurehadusworriedforasecond indeed ?

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    114. Hate to say it. But it looks like Jon cares for Sansa more than she does for him. Or at least I get the impression or vibe from their conversations or scenes. I remember Sophie saying that they’ll never be close because of their childhood and their differences will still be there, not to mention her experiences.

      KevLS,

      Also Walkers and Greyjoys.

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    115. Thronetender,

      This, so much this. And how much braver still when you already know the true nothingness that lays ahead in death. Jon is ultimate hero for me and Kit is pure magic playing him.

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    116. Flayed Potatoes:
      There was also an interesting remark in the episode about how people won’t fight for those who won’t fight for them, and seeing Jon fight and suffer side by side with everyone is going to help him win others over. I hope at least ?

      Yes! Jon made that comment at the parlay to Ramsay when Ramsay denied the Bastard Dual. Jon said, “Will your men want to fight for you when they hear you wouldn’t fight for them?”

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    117. If Melisandre is heading towards the Davos chopping block… Shouldn’t the gang first try to persuade her to at least go around the battlefield and check to see if the Lord of Light is willing to give any of the dead a 1up.

      Suddenly this episode, she seems to imply that only Jon is in the Lord of Light’s plans. She didn’t seem to think she had any power to revive him before she tried the first time though. What a snobby witch. Spread the love already.

      If she reforms her ways, there still might be hope for more Wun Wun (returning as sort of a one-eyed giant porcupine).

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    118. This is very random, but haven’t seen anyone else make this connection yet:

      Anybody get a Princess Bride, “Inigo Montoya vs The Six Fingered Man” vibe from the last few beats of Jon/Ramsay last night?

      Starting with Jon finally making it over the hill, seeing Ramsay, and then Ramsay just straight turns and runs away. He is followed by a frantic, revenge-hungry Jon and his Giant (RIP, Andre), who beats down the locked door with a few savage punches. If not for Ramsay choosing to shoot Wun-Wun in the eye, he easily could have gone the Count Ruben route, and shot Jon in the stomach, “You’ve come all this way only to fail now? I think that’s the worst thing I ever heard.”

      Anyway, not saying anybody stole anything, just made me laugh in the moment. As soon as Ramsay ran away, that was my thought, followed by “…And he’s got a giant!” This is what happens when your nerdery runs amok.

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    119. anon:
      I interpreted “I’m inside you now” to mean she’s pregnant with his baby.We’ll see next episode I assume.

      Is that what he said?! I couldn’t make out that line, so I was curious. Maybe he means metaphorically. Like, she is becoming like him (not a sadist, so much as a darker version of herself). At least, that is what I hope he meant.
      A pregnancy wouldn’t surprise me because, hell, this show knows how to twist the knife. And of course it is a possibility, unless 6-7 months have past between her being rescued by Brienne and the battle. If it has been 2-3 months, maybe a bit longer, she may not know for sure because it definitely sounds as if the physical damage was as horrid as the mental/emotional torture. I don’t want it, it makes me sad as shit for the character but hopefully we will have an answer eventually.

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    120. Nihl:
      DeeismyGF,

      That definitely wasn’t the horn of the Night’s Watch, and the Wall probably isn’t gonna come down next week

      I don’t hear the horn either, but you don’t think the NK and White Walkers will be in the finale? If they are, I don’t see anywhere else they would be except the Wall.

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    121. Markus Stark,

      I am quite baffled at their take compared to what they’ve presented to us. It seems plain as day, so maybe they’re giving a bit of misdirection for reasons of not wanting fully reveal a plot twist?

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    122. Jack Bauer 24: I honestly think they nailed it. I love how Drogon put his wing out last night for Dany to climb on him.

      That was indeed quite nice, and they avoided having to deal with the most difficult part by having Drogon move his head to the right to cover the area where her feet would be touching his skin.

      The flying scenes impressed me most. It was a massive improvement over last year’s slightly goofy flight from the arena.

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    123. Jack Bauer 24,

      Maybe. Or I think that was what Robb asked of the Lannisters and Tyrion agreed and Cat saw them when she was at RR or somewhere. Or that could have been the books. I get confused these days.

      But the IB controlled Moat Cailin and the Boltons WF and I don’t know whether either would have cared whether Ned’s bones got to WF or not.

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    124. Why does anyone think Sansa will have to marry LF now? It was her cousin Robyn who ordered the Vale troops to offer help via LF. No way was she going to trust this reptile, and she assumed (wrongly of course) other Northern houses would assist, no need for the Vale. That is why she stalled accepting help until the 11th hour. Hardly an inexcusable error from a flawed and traumatized young woman.

      Jeesh.

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    125. Sou,

      Damn if LF gets Jon killed after Davos has the Red woman sent away, he can’t be revived again. Maybe this is where another certain red priest could come into play. I really don’t think Jon going to die again cause that would just be redundancy for the sake of a spectacle we don’t really need to see again right?

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    126. Fancy word for a sellsword,

      Oh I hope! After everything she’s been through to just fall into the Littlefinger trap again, almost willingly, would be so disappointing and a disservice to her character. Please no! Let the student surpass the master here finally, he needs to die. The end. Oh maybe we find out he started all the wars with his chaos ladder theory bs first then a Stark kills him, that’ll do.

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    127. Marlana,

      Yes, in books, that happens but that appears to be one of the many sub-sub-plots that were dropped for the show, who knows? maybe Ned’s bones showed up and Roose and Ramsay put them in the crypt. Seems out of character, but who knows

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    128. Jack Bauer 24,

      Well, if she is the reflective Mel of Season 6, what do they get out of her remaining? No prophecy this season? No magic other than raising Jon? Just sits in her room by the fire like the 400 year old she is? She might as well die if this is her character arc and she doesn’t grow as a result of seeing her limitations.

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    129. Two random thoughts

      1) Mel was mistaken on who TPTWP was, which she’s said. When Davos confronts her, I think she’ll say very clearly that while Shireen’s sacrifice – which Stannis ordered – didn’t save him because he wasn’t the right person, but it saved Jon.

      In the preview, we see that Winter is there, it’s snowing. But not at all in the battle. Could be that she says the sacrifice aided Jon, and I think he will realize he needs all the allies in the wars to come, as distasteful and dishonorable as they are. He could do with a tiny less honor.

      2) Jon mentions taking Rickon to Winterfell crypts. Odds that there’s a scene of him down there, perhaps glancing at Lyanna Stark?

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    130. schase,

      Immediately followed by LF’s “half-brother.” Out of everyone in the North, at this point in time, Lord Baelish is on top. That could change next week. But with a minimum loss of life, the North owes him and the Knights of the Vale and he controls Robyn Arryn. 2 of 7 kingdoms, only 5 more to go. Chaos is a ladder. 🙂

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    131. Ginevra,

      She told Ramsay his house and name will disapear. That would not be the case if she was carrying Bolton spawn. And how would Ramsay know? Did she send a reply to the pink letter?

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    132. Nadia:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      But I still think the show is not going to show us three physical dragon riders, and I’m ok with that. Otherwise it’s like “the eagles are coming!” ?

      It’s worth remembering that Peter Jackson & Co. did those effects 13 years ago; the state of the art has really advanced since then. Part of the reason we laugh at “the eagles are coming” is just that: it looks fake enough to take you out of the moment. By the time the plot needs to have more dragon riders, the effects people will be a lot better at it than they were in Season 5, and it’ll be a long, long time since the release of Return of the King.

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    133. John:
      When did they return Ned’s body to Winterfell to be buried in the crypt?

      Little Finger visits Renly’s camp in Season 2, and brings a chest of bones to Catelyn. I believe that’s the last mention of Ex-Ned.

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    134. Nadia:
      Two random thoughts

      1) Mel was mistaken on who TPTWP was, which she’s said. When Davos confronts her, I think she’ll say very clearly that while Shireen’s sacrifice – which Stannis ordered – didn’t save him because he wasn’t the right person, but it saved Jon.

      In the preview, we see that Winter is there, it’s snowing. But not at all in the battle. Could be that she says the sacrifice aided Jon, and I think he will realize he needs all the allies in the wars to come, as distasteful and dishonorable as they are. He could do with a tiny less honor.

      2) Jon mentions taking Rickon to Winterfell crypts. Odds that there’s a scene of him down there, perhaps glancing at Lyanna Stark?

      That would be awesome seeing a Jon/Lyanna crypt scene and then right after seeing the rest of ToJ.

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    135. What do you think the final scene of the season will be? It’s always interesting to me what image they choose to be the final one for the next 10 months before the next season. They’ve already closed with Dany twice with Seasons 1 and 3. Will they go with a more shocking ending like last season with Jon or more upbeat like with Arya in Season 4? Season 2 ended with the White Walkers. Will they end with them at the Wall this Sunday? I’m going with either NK at the Wall or Dany leaving for Westeros.

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    136. Am I the only person who thought the whole episode was a bit meh?
      The battle scenes were well done but the whole episode was littered with cheesy moments.
      The reason for characters turning up places is getting less and less important. What has Tyrion really lent to the Mereen story? The Ironborn are denied their only moment of glory when they help out at the siege of Mereen by another cheesy Dany on her dragons moment. Plus the whole girl power thing between Yara and Daenarys was over the top (apparently the fact she’s female is single enough reason to ally with her). I guess they turned Yara’s character gay just to flirt with Dany?
      As much fun as the Battle of the Bastards was , it was pretty predictable. Rickon was always going to die ( why have him as a character at all. He’s contributed nothing) and the Vale was always going to come to the rescue. Some will argue Sansa came into her own this episode but as usual all she did was stand on the sidelines doing nothing whilst others fought for her. Will she ever be more than just tagged onto others storylines?! Also, with all the CGI flying about where was Ghost?!
      I don’t know if it’s because it was hyped up so much but I felt a bit let down by this episode. I think this season Game of Thrones has turned from being a great show into being a good show. It just doesn’t seem as well put together or tight as it used to and seems to have sacrificed substance for style. Hoping episode 10 restores my faith a bit as can’t say I’m overjoyed with the way it’s going right now.

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    137. Darkrobin:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Well, if she is the reflective Mel of Season 6, what do they get out of her remaining? No prophecy this season?No magic other than raising Jon?Just sits in her room by the fire like the 400 year old she is?She might as well die if this is her character arc and she doesn’t grow as a result of seeing her limitations.

      For obvious reasons, they do not show the whole confrontation between Davos and Mel. But in that scene they do reveal her true power and why she is so crucial, has been crucial to Jon’s survival and will be for the foreseeable future.

      On side note, there is going to be slaughterhouse next episode. We are going to have the following die:

      Lores
      Margery
      Qyburn
      Picelle
      Kevan
      Sparrow
      Lancel
      Bunch of FMs
      Daario
      Walder Frey
      Bunch of Freys

      who else did I miss?

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    138. Jack Bauer 24:
      What do you think the final scene of the season will be? It’s always interesting to me what image they choose to be the final one for the next 10 months before the next season. They’ve already closed with Dany twice with Seasons 1 and 3. Will they go with a more shocking ending like last season with Jon or more upbeat like with Arya in Season 4? Season 2 ended with the White Walkers. Will they end with them at the Wall this Sunday? I’m going with either NK at the Wall or Dany leaving for Westeros.

      I am going with Arya but with a twist, setting up big story line for her next season.

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    139. WorfWWorfington:
      He had every motivation not to want Jon to know and he was the one with the leverage. No one wants to talk about this, least of all Sophie and the grrrrrl power types, but Sansa coud have gotten played big-time.

      This does sound like the Little Finger we all Know and Loathe. Waiting until late in the battle does indeed leave him with the largest army in the north.

      Of course, in “real life” it would be hard to time things so fine. A lot of battles in the real world hinged on the timing of when commanders actually got their troops on time, or even knew they should be somewhere. Look at the Battle of Gettysburg: the whole thing was a collasso accident, where neither side intended to fight there.

      GOT isn’t the real world, and along with Little Finger’s many jet packs, he has radios and satellites. I leave that to D&D.

      Don’t be completely sure, though, that it’s LF who’s pwning Sansa. Darth Sansa may be about to slice her former mentor in half with her Valerian Light Saber. Which a lot of us would pay to see.

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    140. Matty C,

      Ha, didn’t occur to me at the time, but it should have, considering its one of my fav books and movies of all time. Now of course Im going to think of it every time I see that scene. Thanks, I think 🙂

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    141. Halfman: Edit: And where has Karstark sneaked off to? If he’d been killed, they surely would have shown that.

      Yep, he’s the example of NOT-Jon. He’s more like old Janos Slynt, likely to cower in fear rather than stand and fight. At least that traitor rats’-ass Smalljon stayed in the fray and fought. Got his ass kicked by a wilding, yay Tormund, but at least he was man enough to go down fighting.

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    142. Jack Bauer 24:
      Do we think they kill Mel next episode, or banish her?

      Betting “banish”. Mel’s said that she’ll meet Arya again, remember. Which is Show Canon.

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    143. Can’t wait to watch these interviews! I thought Iwan did a fantastic job making Ramsay a hate inspiring character. Can’t wait to see the curtain call for him. Also will there be a curtain call for poor Wun Wun? 🙁

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    144. DeeismyGF:
      So might be in the minority here cause I literally see no-onetalking about it… scene where Davos is walking before the battle.Finds the pyre where Shireen was burned.Camera pans outward with the Onion Knight on a hill dawns first light glowing behind him and in the distance you hear a horn.Not one blast, not two, but three horn blasts…
      … … The wall is being attacked, and three horn blasts mean the Others
      wall coming down next episode … get hyped

      I’ll have to listen to that scene again. But the Wall is not so close to Winterfell. If you’re right that’s what we’re hearing, I’ll be surprised.

      Also: if they still have ~15 episodes to go, I think it’s a little early for that. I’d expect to see Dany and her armies in Westeros well before that.

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    145. Jack Bauer 24:
      Javi Marcos from Los Siete Reinos a Spanish GoT site. I believe he has inside sources like Sue/WotW and during this past off season he said something about Jaime and fans being upset or something of the like. I believe he said it would be “controversial” and he mentioned Arya and Jaime.

      Well, IF Arya (or the Hound and the Brotherhood) happen to be anywhere in the vicinity of the Twins in the season finale, yep, I’m officially worried for Jamie’s well-being…

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    146. KevLS:
      The whereabouts of Lord Karstark concern me as well.If he isn’t dead, he should be.

      The show’s already set up the idea that some houses went with the Boltons. Karstark and Glover are the “faces” of that. Most likely, we’ll see ’em grovelling. Maybe not in Ep. 10, but early next season.

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    147. There was no way in HELL, the character called Jon, was going to see his little brother running for his life and not make a desperate dash to try to save him…despite knowing it’s a trap. Jon could not live with himself. That’s who he is, he risks himself to do the right thing.

      But there are also things Jon would not do: He would not risk other people’s lives to get personal revenge.

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    148. moonlightof1982,

      I think that video was a attempt to shift the blame off of Sansa and onto Jon. I’m not fooled by it though. Jon did the bst he could with the little that he had. Sansa is the one who lied, and kept vital infro, and to me, that makes her the screw-up.

      Usually during these interviews the actor or director is indicating their vision of that scene. I don’t think its an attempt to shift blame. Its an attempt to tell the viewer what was going on in the head of those who were in the show.

      Ok Im done with this issue. Im getting very frustrated and worked up over these comments and I need to back away from the screen for a bit. This is a show with with complex characters and complex plotting, Its a story that is not black and white. There are all shades of grey involved. This whole blame thing is just pointless. Have at it, but Im going to disappear for a few

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    149. Geralt of Rivia,

      I have a mixed reaction to that, but probably a lot hinges on if and when she knew the Vale would be coming and if she can be honest with him. If we see some conflict in her in being dishonest, we’ll have a better answer.

      She’s certainly not unfeeling and she absolutely didn’t want Jon to lose, but mostly they’ve said over and over how hard she is. You could see in her face, she was totally impassive while he very easily could’ve died. She’s already shown no emotion over accepting Rickon’s death and then seeing his body. Does she cares if Jon lives or dies? I think she does, but in the moment it seemed to matter less to her than revenge on Ramsay. Afterall, it’s probably why we never had them talk about him being murdered and brought back to life.

      I think Jon still has this honor and desire to do good that Sansa has been hardened against. You’re just not going to see her be overly emotional over him. I just don’t think she thinks emotionally any more, that’s something she’s had to learn.

      Ramsay will have a lasting impact on her. I don’t think that means that she screws Jon over. It’s more that his emotions have thus far proven to be stronger, whereas she’s never actually shown any deep concern for HIM specifically – from the first meeting, it’s Jon talking about where they’d go together, that he’d protect her (she can protect herself obvs), about what happened to her, now that they have to trust each other.

      Based on the two seconds!! in the promo (LOL) she doesn’t seem remorseful to me and I don’t really see this version of Sansa laying all her thoughts on the table, but for all we know she’ll be perfectly honest. I don’t know if we’ll see Sansa soften her shell for Jon. It’s quite possible that she will challenge him or work around him in the future, and I don’t even really think she’s going to be on the same page as Jon in trusting each other fully, even after the talk she’ll likely always stay cautious, but I don’t think she’s ever going to try and ruin.

      They just have very different methods and maybe even slightly different goals.

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    150. Halfman: I’m also very curious as to why Jaime is at the Frey party.

      Ok, how’s this? Frey has sworn allegiance to the Lannisters and done dirty work on their behalf; in return, he’s been rewarded and protected by them. That’s not enough for the old man, he has always felt insulted that the other lords seemed to look down on him. He griped about Hoster Tully not attending one of his weddings. Then, of course, there was the massive insult about Robb’s wedding. The last scene we saw him in was him spouting to his hapless bunch “they are laughing at us…” He’s obsessed with being honored, and would be very insistent that Lord Jaime effing Lannister would come to celebrate the victory of retaking Riverrun.

      Jaime wouldn’t have yet heard the news about Tommen revoking the right to trial by combat, so wouldn’t realize yet that Cersei is in dire need of his support. He would probably figure it’s ok for him to swing by the Twins for a night on the way back to KL. Get some provisions for his army and scope things out. Give the lowly Northerners an in-person sight of the renowned Lannister greatness. However, he’s had a strong dose of true honor and nobility from being in the presence of Brienne and the Blackfish. I wonder how concentrated doses of vitriol spouting from that gloating old goat and his nasty brood are going to collide with the goodness he seems to want to nurture inside himself?

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    151. Thronetender,

      Please allow me to demystify you: Sansa is a horrible person, and she didn’t get that way is Ramsey’s bed. She’s always been callous toward others. She was callous to her sister by the inn in episode 1. She was unconcerned with her mother’s sadness that she would leave her and Winterfell to marry Joffrey. She is unconcerned with the lives of the Free folk and Northerners. ….and, she is now a rogue who has invited the enemy into the camp. That enemy is Littlefinger.

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    152. Nadia:
      2) Jon mentions taking Rickon to Winterfell crypts. Odds that there’s a scene of him down there, perhaps glancing at Lyanna Stark?

      That would be a great setup for Bran finding out about a favorite theory, ja?

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    153. If anything, Jon’s reckless actions during the battle, just because he could not stand watching his little half-brother being killed, should ensure Sansa that Jon Snow IS the only one she can trust in that world. He will literally get himself trampled by cavalry in order to save his half-sibling. That’s how loyal he can be. She would be stupid to lose that even if she had to stick with Littlefinger for political reasons.

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    154. orange,

      Thanks for saying this. Isn’t it kinda like how she was all over Joffrey even after he and his Mother had her direwolf killed? She’s never loyal or trustworthy and it has always led to her destruction: Cersai and Joff, followed by Ramsey, followed by …..Littlefinger.

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    155. Jack Bauer 24: I think Bran is in front of a weirwood in the finale preview. Hopefully we’ll see the rest of ToJ.

      That would be great. I thought Bran would be in everyone’s head somehow, directing them or warning them. I guess they have the next two seasons to set that up, and maybe now, with Starks back in Winterfell, some of that magic will start to show itself.

      I’m so curious to know what magic resides in the crypts, and whether or not that also connects to Bran. The crypts aren’t a book-only thing, they’ve shown Rickon (sad) Bran, Sansa, Ned, Robert and Littlefinger in those crypts at times during the entire series.

      While the show never hinted that there were “magical” elements down there, I’ve picked up from a lot of you that there is in the books, so maybe the show will use it/show it somehow. I hope so. This is a fantasy, after all. I think it would be cool to be shown or told why “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.”

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    156. Anon,

      I get so eyerolly with Sansa haters, especially those that label her a horrible person in the entire scope of horrible people in Game of Thrones because she and Arya bickered as children. It’s ridiculous. Pretty much the opposite of callous, as her rose-colored glasses are what caused so many of her problems in early seasons/books.

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    157. George: Well, IF Arya (or the Hound and the Brotherhood) happen to be anywhere in the vicinity of the Twins in the season finale, yep, I’m officially worried for Jamie’s well-being…

      I’m thinking that Jaime has to get back to KL though and see what Cersei has done (wildfire) though. Not sure if he’ll make it back in the finale, or the Season 7 premiere.

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    158. Anon,

      Sure then, just throw out your wild, unsubstantiated opinions without a shred of book or show evidence. From henceforth you’ll be Donald of the House Trump.

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    159. Dragon Tender: The show’s already set up the idea that some houses went with the Boltons.Karstark and Glover are the “faces” of that.Most likely, we’ll see ’em grovelling.Maybe not in Ep. 10, but early next season.

      Glover didn’t side with them. It was Karstark and Umber.

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    160. So I have a question about Jon’s circumstances. Now that he is undead, does it mean he is immune to White Walkers? Can he be killed by them? How are they going to react to the new Jon. If I remember correctly, even in Hardhome, they already treated him sorta “preferentially”.

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    161. Jinx47: For obvious reasons, they do not show the whole confrontation between Davos and Mel. But in that scene they do reveal her true power and why she is so crucial, has been crucial to Jon’s survival and will be for the foreseeable future.

      On side note, there is going to be slaughterhouse next episode. We are going to have the following die:

      who else did I miss?

      No Tommen? Do you think the wildfire will kill all of those characters?

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    162. TheTouchofFrost:
      Am I the only person who thought the whole episode was a bit meh?

      I’m sure you aren’t the only one. I, too, would have liked deeper meaning, but there were so many very spectacular moments that I felt the episode as a whole was up to par, even for an Episode 9.

      Most who have rated so far adore the episode perhaps more than any episode ever: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4283088/?ref_=ttep_ep9. Already almost 42,833 have rated and the average is 10/10, which is higher than any other average ever. Only Rains and Hardhome got 9.9. Now IMDb ratings do fall as time passes, but the number of people who’ve already rated this episode is almost record-breaking already, with Rains getting 43,330 raters and Hardhome getting 46,720. Every episode other than these three has less than 28,000 raters, so that clearly defines this episode as in the top three. I happen to think it will land first among general audience members.

      Among critics, according to Rotten Tomatoes, it has landed one negative review of 43, and so it isn’t the perfect 100% that half a dozen to a dozen episodes have gotten, but it is very nearly so.

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    163. Oh puh-leeez with the Sansa is thoughtless stuff. Am I wrong, or is that not the operation-mode of just about every teenaged girl on the planet, that they can be extremely self-centered much of the time. I implore those who have raised teen-aged girls to set me straight on this. Am I wrong in thinking that teen-aged girls can be horribly annoying sometimes, and selfish and dreamy and impatient with everyone and everything and every situation? I don’t want you to bad-mouth your babies, and I acknowledge that they can also be at times amazing and wonderful. But is Sansa so different in her self-centeredness from most girls her age?

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    164. Nadia,

      I agree with you completely. Had she told him that she had more men, the whole strategy adopted by Jon, Davos and Tormund would have been completely different. And if they knew about the Vale Army, they actually could have prepared a plan that involved saving Rickon. I understand they want to show Sansa changed and is taking control after what happened to her last season – and I am all for it – but the way they did, she is responsible for every death in Jon’s army + Rickon. And that would be ok too, since she is just a person and will make mistakes. HOWEVER, what is maddening is that the actors, directors and producers just keep saying how much more in control she is, how she is becoming a master planner, etc., but her actions do not convey that at all 🙁

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    165. Idk how people can think Sansa was smart for writing off Rickon. She’s his brother, what kind of leader does that to their own family?

      What Jon did was tactically the wrong move, but strategically necessary. If Jon sits there and let’s his own brother be murdered and not do a thing his army wouldn’t respect him.

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    166. Did anybody else think the mention of the Crypt at Winterfell was significant? I’d imagine there’ll be a scene down there after Rickon is laid to rest next to his Father and then Jon glimpses the statue of Lyanna, at very least pausing to look at it. After that, a cut to Bran? I am wondering if the show is going to diverge from the books even more and if he might find ‘Dawn’ hidden down there somewhere, especially as it seems so significant to the circumstances surrounding his birth if R+L=J is indeed true (which it almost certainly is.) A seed has to be planted in his mind at some point. Bran simply telling him would be really lame. I’m also wondering if that might spur him on to return ‘Longclaw’ to Edd because, damn, they need something up at The Wall right now.

      I’m convinced something is going to go down with the Freys too. Perhaps the Brotherhood will be involved, which is super interesting seen as The Hound was there for the aftermath of the Red Wedding. Whether Arya will be back in time to cross Walder off her list is debatable though. Jaime will probably leave before it all kicks off, or pull a Blackfish and escape. Either way, he needs to survive for a showdown between him and Cersei.

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    167. Anon: …so what’s your explanation… genetics?

      Um, the writers? the directors? GRRM? Ramsay? ok, ok, a life phase that manifests at certain stages of human development in a set of known and common actions.

      It’s fiction. Nobody really died. But if we are extrapolating events, carrying through with the thought processes, no Sansa is NOT responsible for every death on the field. Ramsay is. And I wasn’t joking about the writers. They had to make a way for the action to pulse non-stop, for the excitement to build. The men being told about the possibility of the Vale army then waiting around to see if they would come wasn’t going to do it. So they pinned it on reticence, for whatever reason, on Sansa’s part.

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    168. Anon,

      To be fair, the show AND THE BOOKS have made it abundantly clear that this war had to happen.

      In both the books and the show, the Wildlings would never be safe with the Boltons in control. And in the show, Jon has said very clearly that the war with the WW demands that they retake Winterfell.

      Jon may have been reluctant to begin with and Sansa gung-ho, but this battle is one that had to happen for the wars to come, there’s no way around it in the plot.

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    169. Ginevra,

      So happy to see that. Amazing.

      If you look at the break down of the votes , 94% have voted 10, it will be hard for it to go down at this point

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    170. Interesting how understanding some people are when Jon falls right into Ramsey’s trap (Despite being warned), putting himself and his men at a disadvantage because he allowed his emotions/love for his brother get in the way. (I’m not judging Jon either, I totally get it). Yet I’m sure people would be lining up to call Sansa all kinds of ~weak, pathetic and stupid if she were in a similar position and made the same choice.

      Now she’s accused of being cold and unfeeling for realizing straight away that there was no way Ramsey would ever let Rickon live. I can’t imagine Jon would be accused of this if he took Sansa’s approach and accepted that Rickon could not be saved. Lesson here is, for some Sansa is always wrong, no matter what, even if she’s right.

      It’s amusing how much time I spend defending Sansa on here, especially because she’s not even in my top 3 favorite characters. lol

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    171. LonRice,

      Don’t worry. A lot of people on threads last night was calling Jon stupid, idiot, etc. I think no character is immune to criticisms. If Jon did it differently, for sure those would also call him cold-hearted and complain that it’s out of character. What people are not realizing is that what Jon and Sansa did in last night’s episode is actually in keeping with their characters.

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    172. schase,

      Exactly my thoughts! Neither of them behaved logically but it’s a highly stressful situation they’re in and that’s not even accounting for all the terrible things they’ve seen that have forged them into the people they are. Saying Jon was stupid to fall for Ramsay’s tricks is unfair, because even though Sansa warned him that Ramsay would set traps for him, in that kind of situation you’re going to be emotional. As for Sansa, she was wrong not to tell Jon about the possibility of the Vale army (It kind of made no sense narratively as well because she kept trying to get him to delay the battle and it would’ve been the perfect way to potentially make him wait) but at the same time it also makes sense for her as a character to keep her cards close to her chest after what she’s been through (as an abuse victim for years). She probably thought that if she told Jon about the Vale he’d either reject LF outright (like she initially did) because she’s already told him off-screen what a slimy person he is, or he’d make plans for the Vale’s help even though they didn’t know for sure if they’d turn up and when. And Sansa obviously didn’t know that they’d turn up for sure because she essentially told Jon that if they lost the battle she’d rather kill herself than go back to Ramsay. That doesn’t sound at all like someone who’s confident another huge army is on the way. Interestingly that parallels nicely with Jon’s statement to Melisandre “don’t bring me back”, which was of course him saying the same thing “if we lose, I just want to be dead”.
      Basically I think people could be a little more understanding of these characters. I personally give the young characters, the Stark kids in particular, a lot of leeway when it comes to making mistakes. They’re all supposed to be so young still (almost ridiculously young) and considering that, it’s amazing how they’ve kept themselves alive and sane for this long. And now I’m just looking forward to next week and the tying up of a few loose ends (especially Jon and Sansa having an actual onscreen heart to heart lol we haven’t seen them have a proper talk yet!).
      Oh Yeah, and how many of you think Cersei is about to blow up KL? They’ve been teasing wildfire an awful lot.

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    173. Sean C.:
      Nadia,

      I imagine because there’s a gulf between what the writers want the audience to take away from it and what many in the audience are based on the events that actually transpire onscreen.

      I think too is the difference between what the actors shot and what actually ends up in the final televised version. The actors are all in costume, so the interviews appear to have been on set.

      It’s like back in season 5 with the Sansa and Littlefinger scene about marrying Ramsey, it was apparently her choice according to show runners but to me it didn’t seem so.

      I would say bad writing because they are clearly not getting the message across clear enough but that is becoming a trope of this show lately.

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    174. Geralt of Rivia: Wish R+L%J was wrong too because Jon is not or never will be a But you know this theory is likely true Targaryen. He has no emotional connection to them and doubt it will change all of sudden.

      What I have wondered is what good it will do Jon to publicize his Targ DNA. He is probably better off keeping it secret and just finding himself the life he wants, which is probably not the IT.

      It would be interesting to see the children of Jon and Dany marry the children of Arya and Gendry. Lots of strong DNA. Maybe the FM are into genetic engineering.

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    175. ForestLight:
      schase,

      Basically I think people could be a little more understanding of these characters. I personally give the young characters, the Stark kids in particular, a lot of leeway when it comes to making mistakes. They’re all supposed to be so young still (almost ridiculously young) and considering that, it’s amazing how they’ve kept themselves alive and sane for this long. And now I’m just looking forward to next week and the tying up of a few loose ends (especially Jon and Sansa having an actual onscreen heart to heart lol we haven’t seen them have a proper talk yet!).

      This! Along the line with what I said a little earlier. I, too, have a soft spot for the Stark kids. They lost so much and suffered a lot at a very young age. That’s why I cried when Rickon died, even though others were dismissive of his death because “he’s just a minor character”.

      I am also looking forward to Jon and Sansa’s talk. In the preview, it looks to me like Jon is saying good-bye to Sansa (when he kisses her forehead and she looks sad). That made me wonder if the writers used the “keeping Vale a secret” as plot device to separate the two (aside from affording a grand “surprise” entrance during the battle), i.e., to make Jon think WF is not his home anymore and he should go back to his “home” (CB) to fight alongside his brothers.

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    176. Fuchsia:
      I would say bad writing because they are clearly not getting the message across clear enough but that is becoming a trope of this show lately.

      And the irony is trope busting is a hallmark of ASoIaF. It is painful to see all the good counter-trope story devolve to Hollywoodesque cliché. Impressive spectacle still does not make up for the lack of structure to support the story telling. Lipstick on a pig.

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    177. Marlana: What I have wondered is what good it will do Jon to publicize his Targ DNA.He is probably better off keeping it secret and just finding himself the life he wants, which is probably not the IT.

      It would be interesting to see the children of Jon and Dany marry the children of Arya and Gendry.Lots of strong DNA.Maybe the FM are into genetic engineering.

      Oh yes, those kids would have very strong DNAs. 🙂 They need a Lannister in the mix though, yeah? Sansa and Tyrion’s kids? 🙂

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    178. Sam,

      I also have felt that all will not remain at WF. Perhaps Sansa will wind up with the Vale as her home base. Jon’s home base may also not be WF and may not be CB. Sam had a vision in the book

      where he was feasting all his friends at Horn Hill, and they were wearing colored clothes. Jon could wind up there.

      After saving the world, Bran may be the Stark in Winterfell.

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    179. Dragon Tender,

      Yeah, I’d say that based on a few cast members saying that they think that Sansa (or Sansa and Arya together) should be the Queen in the end due to her political understanding, that she must do some sort of complex political move in the next episode that wipes the smug smile off Littlefinger’s face (at least for the time being, as I don’t think she’ll actually kill him/have him killed until she finds out his part in her father’s death, and she needs to meet Sandor again for that). There’s also the fact that in a Kit Harrington interview he mentions that in the morally ambiguous world of GOT he sees a few characters as fighting for the right side and he singles out Jon, Arya and Sansa as characters he sees as “good”, which goes against some people’s theories that she’s become a heartless manipulator who will betray her brother and steal his power.
      Spoiler!:

      According to the truede leaks which have so far been completely legit, Sansa supports Jon being made King of the North which again means that she’s not trying to be a power grabbing manipulator and steal Jon’s glory. Maybe her support for his Kingship is part of her political move against LF?

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    180. Sam,

      I didn’t see that as him saying goodbye but more as a conclusion to them having a conversation where she admits that she has trust issues. I don’t see them separating until we see Arya and Bran turn up at Winterfell. At which point I predict Arya and Sansa’s (and their sworn protectors: Brienne, Jaime and the Hound’s) storylines will converge and Jon and Bran’s storylines will converge. Jon and Bran will stay in the North to fight the WW and the NK while Sansa and Arya will head south on a diplomatic mission (perhaps to treat with Daenerys on Jon’s behalf?). But those are just my theories, we wont know till next season.

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    181. ForestLight,

      Your comment about they are all so young: it is dismaying to see young people (Sansa and Jon) yearn for death based on they don’t want a life even worse than their life so far. That is a powerful comment on their misery to date.

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    182. Marlana,

      I’m all for Bran inheriting WF someday (if he doesn’t get stuck on a tree for hundreds of years). He’s the only one now who carries the Stark name. Am I right that a daughter’s children (e.g., Sansa, Arya) will not bear their house’s name? If so, Bran is the Stark’s only hope. 🙂

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    183. Sam: Oh yes, those kids would have very strong DNAs. They need a Lannister in the mix though, yeah? Sansa and Tyrion’s kids?

      Another thing I have wondered is if Sansa and Tyrion cross paths, if Sansa will see Tyrion in a different light and resume being married to him.

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    184. ghost of winterfell:

      “Right now I have no idea if they have any arc in mind for him. Jon thinking with his heart instead of his head and getting outsmarted as a result is something we already seen before. It just looks to me like his arc is regressing.”

      Just like dear old dad(s).

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    185. ForestLight,

      I do hope they don’t separate. Sansa would need her big bro on her side as she deals with LF. I don’t intend that to mean that she’s weak and she needs a man in her life (people might riot! LOL). It would just be nice for these siblings to be together for a while longer. But then, I was also thinking maybe Jon will meet Bran and Uncle Benjen (finally!) next season at CB. That is if the wall is still standing by then.

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    186. schase:
      Nadia,

      That’s the point. Sansa makes choices only Sansa could make. Jon makes choices only Jon could make. Hypotheticals don’t really hold up. I mean, could Jon handle what Sansa went through with Joffrey or Ramsey? Could he manipulate Littlefinger? Never. Different characters have different strengths, and expecting everyone to operate from the same set of characteristics and moral guidelines will get you nowhere.

      moonlightof1982,
      I extrapolate what I can from videos. I mean, if you can’t trust the directors and the actors to have more knowledge and about their characters…. well, I don’t know what you’re going with. The best insight on a character in a television show is going to be from the actor who portrays them IMO. Kit says Jon screwed up, then he screwed up.

      Flayed Potatoes,
      And Tyrion? Learning from Cersei doesn’t imply that all lessons were valuable or good.

      Jon is not completely inept, for example he did play a convincing spy within the Wildling camp. Jon has also had to learn quite early on, to work with people who he really did not like, like Craster for example.

      Jon was stabbed to death last season because he rushed in to hear or help a family member, and now it happens again, hmm okay. He could have sent Wun Wun forward to get Rickon, or anyone else.

      There is really no reason why Sansa should be lying to Jon. All of these deeds were done in order for the Vale to arrive and save the day.

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    187. Marlana,

      She may eventually end up with him (I personally don’t really think so) but it will be after she has fallen in love with someone she chose for herself and ended up losing him tragically. I also think she’ll have that man’s children and if she ends up with Tyrion he’ll be a stepfather.
      As for the child… It’ll be a little girl who looks like Arya *winky face*

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    188. ForestLight:
      Marlana,

      She may eventually end up with him (I personally don’t really think so) but it will be after she has fallen in love with someone she chose for herself and ended up losing him tragically. I also think she’ll have that man’s children and if she ends up with Tyrion he’ll be a stepfather.
      As for the child… It’ll be a little girl who looks like Arya *winky face*

      I can’t think of anyone she can fall in love with (at least on the show). She may actually be done with men (thanks, Ramsay!). As with Tyrion, she may see him now in a different light and maybe even come to love him someday, Beauty and the Beast style. 🙂

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    189. LonRice,

      I take your point and, when Barristan and the Blackfish were removed from the show, I felt it was too soon for their experience to be dropped. However, reality in life is that many people leave their training before it is completed, and incomplete training is one of ASoIaF’s realities.

      There is a saying about Experience Keeps a Dear School. Another ASoIaF reality on display here.

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    190. Sam,

      Well not necessarily. It is believed that the current Starks are descended from the female line. So assuming that Arya and Sansa survive all this (and are fertile), if they marry men who are of a lower social status then the Stark name would pass to their children. I actually think the family will be continued through the female line once more. I don’t think Bran’s future lies in the mundane world of a wife and kids (he’s basically a tree wizard lol), Jon is obviously a Targaryen and has bigger fish to fry than being Warden of the North, and with Rickon dead that leaves Sansa and Arya. So we should most likely be looking to see which one of them is the one to carry on the Stark name.

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    191. Thronetender: I’m so curious to know what magic resides in the crypts, and whether or not that also connects to Bran. The crypts aren’t a book-only thing, they’ve shown Rickon (sad) Bran, Sansa, Ned, Robert and Littlefinger in those crypts at times during the entire series.

      Starks have the blood of the First Men, something important is in the crypts, Weirwood trees, CotF, indigenous beings such as direwolves, warging, green seers, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Really want to know why.

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    192. Marlana,

      I go back and forth on this!

      On the one hand, I think her STORY is with LF and involves Vale intrigue, so I’ve thought that she’ll leave as well. But in the books, I do think eventually the Vale, LF, and Alayne/Sansa are going North. So it might be that that is her ultimate destination. And they’ve made such a huge deal of Sansa returning to Winterfell that would they have her leave right away?

      Jon isn’t going back to the Wall just yet. He’s made it very clear he doesn’t feel he could be there or stay there. After just regaining Winterfell, I don’t think he’s yet going to leave. Also, he also clearly stated that they need a base in the North to fight the Walkers and they need Winterfell for that.

      I don’t think Jon will be at the Wall when it falls, and while he may go North eventually, it also is kind of irrelevant – everything will be Winter, not just what we know of as the North beyond the Wall. They may just stay at Winterfell as long as possible, until the WWs get further south.

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    193. ForestLight,

      You know, I always felt like the show gave the connection with the Hound to Arya, not to Sansa. They removed all romantic or even sexual overtones that we got in the book. Not sure that’s where they’re going anymore?

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    194. ForestLight,

      Oh you mean the hound! 🙂

      Nadia,

      I agree with you. The connection (fatherly) between Arya and the Hound was more compelling than that of Sansa/Hound. I so look forward to Arya and Sandor meeting again. My dream reunions for my girl Arya: 1) with Jon first and foremost, 2) Nymeria, 3) Sandor, 4) Gendry, 5) Sansa/Bran. 🙂

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    195. Jack Bauer 24,

      He’s going to follow Brienne. I’m not even saying that as some crazy shipper. Jaime’s entire season has been about overemphasizing that he and Cersei are the only ones who matter, that they are the only two in this world. I highly suspect this is ironic foreshadowing, and not literal. Because, suddenly, the show decided to throw Brienne into the mix. He made some interesting choices in light of her being at RR. And Jaime’s story has all the elements of someone just begging to break free and make an actual CHOICE for himself (ie. to go against his oft repeated “We don’t choose who we love” adage) I think something he hears about or thinks about at the Twins is going to cause him to get out of there just in the nick of time, and I think it’s going to be related to Brienne and his promises to her, Catelyn, Sansa, etc. and his storyline will roll from there.

      But I’m one who resolutely doesn’t believe that Jaime is the valonqar. I don’t think his story is about killing Cersei; I think his story is about being opposite to Cersei. I don’t even think he ever sees her again.

      ETA: As a sidenote, Jaime’s not dying until the massive gun they hung on the wall – him being *dismissed from the KG* comes into some kind of effect. He’s the heir to Casterly Rock, possibly more, and can now marry. They didn’t release him from the KG for it to come to nothing. Trust me on this. I’m surprised more people don’t talk about how significant this is.

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    196. Nadia,

      I kind of thought so until this season when in the ep where they brought the Hound back they then immediately transitioned to Margaery reading from the Book of the Mother about how a woman’s love calms a man’s brute nature (which has absolutely nothing to do with her own storyline unlike the verses from the Book of the Stranger in a previous ep). Obviously the Mother’s hymn and the theme of love and the struggle for redemption is a huge part of the Hound and Sansa’s story line so that could’ve been a big hint of things to come. The Hound is going to be a major character in Sansa’s book arc so I don’t see the show glossing over it anymore. That said, they may have just been trolling… but I don’t think so. The reason I think they glossed over their erotically/romantically charged relationship in season 1 and 2 is because Sophie Turner was basically a child and they didn’t want to go too far. That said they still went far enough that even non-book readers could pick up on “something” between them.
      But we’ll see. I don’t think it’s a coincidence the show is sending him North rather than South to his brother. Their arcs are entwined.

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    197. Anon,

      I try to understand why some people love Sansa and the only thing that makes sense to me is it’s because they relate to what she’s been through in regards to being used and abused in some form. If one is able to identify with her circumstances that goes along way in being able to paint her as simply a victim that deserves to be defended. The thing is, one can definitely feel sympathy for someone without necessarily having to like them. Just as bad things happen to good people, bad things can also happen to “grey” characters as well. Also her being a Stark of course puts into the viewer’s mind that she’s of noble character and though flawed, she must be mostly “good.”

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    198. Sam,

      Do you think the Hound will at first hold it against her that she did not give him a mercy kill or will he be thankful she didn’t because he was able to pull through?

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    199. ygritte,

      Or maybe she’s a young teenaged girl who had made some bad/questionable choices just like the rest of her siblings but because her motivations appear to many to be overly “feminine”/”shallow”/”frivolous” she gets wayyyyy more hate than they ever do. Even book Sansa gets way more hate than a majority of the adult characters who are far more morally ambiguous than she is (she of course is only guilty of being initially extremely naïve, conformist and judging books by their covers… as a little girl under the age of 13). Tbh, I’m in the opposite position to you as I have a hard time understanding exactly why she’s hated as much as she is.
      I understand not liking a character particularly. For instance, I’m not particularly fond of Daenerys and I find some of Tyrion’s actions to be very grey, but I don’t constantly look for confirmation that they are “evil” despite all evidence to the contrary. I honestly think some people started off hating Sansa because she was a silly little girl who fought with her (totally cool badass tomboy) sister and wanted to stay in KL despite it being obvious to the reader/audience that Joffery was a terrible person, and since then all these people have been just hoping and waiting for reasons to justify their hatred of a child character.
      I mean alllllll of the kids do stupid/ morally ambiguous things. Bran is very high up there for that (Warging into defenseless Hodor against his will anyone?)…not to mention Arya the child assassin…but they are all excused. Why? And don’t get me wrong. I excuse these characters too because I understand why they do the things they do and have the reactions they have. I just also extend that courtesy to Sansa.

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    200. LonRice,

      That is NOT why most people are criticizing her.

      It’s this idea of lying of Jon from start to finish about the Vale, letting this whole thing spiral for ridiculous reason to the expense of all logic, only because D&D want Sansa to get her moment. And get her moment she absolutely should have. But if at some point in all the scenes they had talking about this battle, if she had mentioned the Vale, would it negate her still being the one to finish Ramsay off?! Would it negate the power of the last scene and her revenge?? Those things were not mutually exclusive.

      But literally having a scene where Jon tells her multiple times to tell him what to do different, where he asks her where the hell they could get more men, and just have her be stone silent is so ridiculous at that point. So frankly, it’s all done to create drama, to keep the surprise of the Vale with Sansa riding in to save the day, and that just feels like it serves both characters poorly to me.

      Anyway, the bottom line will come when we see how that talk goes next episode, and if Sansa is honest or continue to distrust Jon (which the writers and actors have said she does, which is wtf). After all, at this point there’s just absolutely no reason for her to distrust him.

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    201. schase:
      Flayed Potatoes,

      That’s the point though. They’re understandable mistakes. As a viewer with third-person omniscient, of COURSE we know that Sansa should tell Jon. From her point of view, she’s not going to trust shit. She’s not going to reveal her trump card; she’s not going to divulge any extraneous power she had; she’s not going to go against Brienne’s advice and trust Davos. I mean, from their viewpoint he’s sketch as hell. If Sansa learned anything from seasons 1-5, it’s loose lips sink ships. I guess I alone am unsurprised that she withheld information. She’s finally started playing the game.

      She was playing the game, so no you’re not alone in thinking that. She also didn’t know whether LF and the vale army would turn up so how could she be lying about it? There’s no point in telling Jon to have a strategy depending on something that might not happen. After the conversation and ‘telling off’ that she gave LF she was playing her kind of strategy. She weighed up his character and tried to work out whether he was genuinely sorry about everything she went through by marrying Ramsay. She took a chance on judging someone’s character and she was right. Lf will have his own selfish reasons too but she banked on a slight bit of guilt and the affection he claims he had for her mother and her. She may not be a battle strategist but it’s what she had to play with. It reminds me of how her mother would approach things.
      As for not trusting Davos, I get the feeling he is going to take revenge for Shireen but put Jon in a silly situation by doing it. His desire for revenge is going to skew his judgement and there was that line with Tormund about ‘not trusting kings’ and ‘jon is not a king’….we all know he could turn out to be.

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    202. Nadia,

      I agree with you that that plot line was simply to increase dramatic tension and make the battle more suspense filled for the viewer. But it was totally unnecessary and kind of made both Jon and Sansa look silly for different reasons. And I don’t even think that was entirely intentional on their part, I actually think they wanted it to come across as this big triumphant victory against all odds…But while I enjoyed the episode I still keep going back to how nonsensical and annoyingly artificial this Jon/Sansa drama has been this season. Both characters have been so weirdly OOC this season. Anyway, next week will probably be their way of brushing it all under the carpet and starting anew… sigh…

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    203. ForestLight,

      I guess it’s true I sometimes forget to take into account her age and maturity level. Just how old is she supposed to be now? No clue, I’m guessing maybe 19? Though I’ve never cared for haughty girls no matter their age lol. Maybe that’s key, when you talk about like say Arya becoming an assassin and not getting “hate” like Sansa I can’t explain that except for Arya bein the more relatable Stark girl right from the beginning. As they say, first impressions can be lasting and unless one does a 180 it’s hard to change that initial perception.

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    204. Clob:
      I bet I’ve watched the opening scene about thirty times and it wasn’t until about number twenty-five that I noticed Drogon flying way back by the pyramid during the “your reign is over” line.While not focusing on it I just thought it was debris falling.I guess it does explain Tyrion’s expression right after – he saw him coming too. ?

      I loved that scene! I actually hit rewind and said is that Drogon? It was like an echo of the Hound stomping thru the woods with his axe.

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    205. I am convinced that Jon Snow saw a vision in the flames inside Mel’s tent…..but I can’t find one person that thinks the same….anyone??

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    206. ygritte,

      Yup I truly think it’s a “first impressions” kind of thing. And also, like you point out, a sort of bias against the stereotypical prissy rich girl character (although I personally find her much more complex than that but to each their own right? 😉 ). And actually I think they’re all meant to be even younger than that in the show although the actors have of course aged further than their characters. I think Sansa’s meant to be around 16-17 at this point. Jon is meant to be around 18-19. Arya is meant to be around 15 and Bran around 13-14. I know…its crazy. But that’s really how old they should be considering how much time is meant to have elapsed since the first season. In the books, which informs the actions of the characters and actually makes their immaturity make way more sense, they’re all even younger. Jon is like 14 or 15 in the first book, Sansa is 11, Arya is 9 and Bran is 7. Crazy! That’s why it’s so amazing they all aren’t insane at this point.

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    207. Flayed Potatoes:
      Halfman,

      We’re the only ones on #KarstarkWatch it seems lol.

      Sign me up. It’s driving me crazy! I though he was on top of Jon when he got trampled. The person on top of him had short hair, no beard. I’ve rewound that scene ten times trying to see if it was Karstark.

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    208. Lady Snow: Clob:
      I bet I’ve watched the opening scene about thirty times and it wasn’t until about number twenty-five that I noticed Drogon flying way back by the pyramid during the “your reign is over” line.While not focusing on it I just thought it was debris falling.I guess it does explain Tyrion’s expression right after – he saw him coming too.
      I loved that scene! I actually hit rewind and said is that Drogon? It was like an echo of the Hound stomping thru the woods with his axe.

      I rewatched the whole thing purposely to see Drogon, yep, there he was. I was giddy like a kid. I so absolutely love Dany’s flying music when she’s flying. And that sound that happens every time she says “Dracarys” and the flames come flying from Drogon’s mouth. I can’t decide what instrument that is, I’m not a musician so I can’t put a name to it, but it’s not a brass instrument. Is that descending sound a cello or violin? I can’t even put words to it to describe it, but maybe somebody knows what I’m talking about and can tell me what instrument that is.

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    209. Jack Bauer 24: Will they end with them at the Wall this Sunday? I’m going with either NK at the Wall or Dany leaving for Westeros.

      How about Bran, Meera and Benjen running for their lives toward the wall, with the wight army hot on their trail, then a scene change to the big brave dothraki warriors frighted as they board the boats, then a scene of Missandei and Gray worm left to rule in the pyramid, a total mock of the Masters saying they would stay in Meereen. Damned right they’ll stay – to run things.

      Then back to the ships setting sail, sort of the opposite of the scene when Arya was on the boat to Bravos. THEN back to the Wall with the three making it safety, and the Night King comes up to watch them, then he kneels down to touch the ground, as he did outside the tree, the ground rumbles and cracks all the way to the wall and THEN … a cracks starts UP the Wall. END. Pure speculation, based on a continuation of everything from the past episodes, but that’s what I think

      Then again, I was sure that Jaime was going to be a bitch to Brienne and ask for his sword back, and the complete opposite happened. (very happy about that, btw, he was sooo gracious to her, it was lovely.)

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    210. Thronetender,

      Yes I can buy that. The pact between the Freys and the Lannisters was Tywin’s work and not something Jaime played any part in. We’ve already seen his contempt for them and I’ve little doubt Walder Frey in person will only reinforce Jaime’s view of them. It will be interesting to see what takes place. Something big has to be going down at that feast. It’s too reminiscent of the red wedding and with WF banging on about the Freys and the Lannisters sending their regards, and Jaime’s presence, the whole scene is telegraphing a major event.
      Ramsay is dead so I’m not sure we will be lucky enough to get Walder Frey kicking the bucket so soon afterwards. GOT isn’t that generous.

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    211. Halfman: Ramsay is dead so I’m not sure we will be lucky enough to get Walder Frey kicking the bucket so soon afterwards. GOT isn’t that generous

      Oh, I see where you are going –

      I think you mean that rather than one of the Starks putting WF out with the garbage, that Jaime will do it for some reason? He will have 8,000 men with him … isn’t that what Bronn said to the younger Freys at Riverrum, that their bad preparations allowed 8000 men to march up to them? That’s more than the Freys have, no? I would love for Old Walder to be gone this season, by anybody’s hand, but why would Jaime do it? Aren’t the Freys now bannermen of the Lannisters? Wouldn’t killing one of your bannermen be almost as bad as what Walder did?

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    212. Sean C.:

      Dragontaming is certainly a lot simpler in the show compared to the books.

      Too easy for my liking, they’re more kittens than dragons. The last time Deanerys was shown with Viserion and Rheagal, she had to run away from them to avoid being killed. Now all of a sudden, she’s somehow in full control and gets them to follow her and selectively burn what she wants?

      Even that scene with Tyrion releasing the dragons, I loved the dialogues but come on, it made no sense at all from a storytelling pov! The chained-up, angry dragons wouldn’t listen to their mother but are friendly with this complete stranger? Wtf.
      In the books, Quentyn trying the same antics and paying with his life for it made more sense.

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    213. kit_hepburn: But I’m one who resolutely doesn’t believe that Jaime is the valonqar. I don’t think his story is about killing Cersei; I think his story is about being opposite to Cersei. I don’t even think he ever sees her again.

      I loved what you wrote and was nodding in total agreement, especially about the part of him NOT being the valonqar, right up until you wrote that you didn’t think he’d see her again. Which is where I disagree, he will go back to her. Barring, of course, some huge, fiery, life-changing event happening in Kings Landing

      As much as he might subconsciously be forming those wishes to choose and be free, everything in his consciousness, and let’s face it, everything in his pants, is still tuned to, turned-on by and devoted to her, and her alone. After the Twins, he intends to head back to KL. Unless, on the way back, he gets the horrifying news that the city has been turned to cinders and that Cersei and Tommen are dead.

      Or that she’s not dead, but she’s responsible for the damage. I think that either of those circumstances would be what it would take to keep him from her. Despondent, disheartened, and disgusted, he would turn in a different direction, but which? Why, go NORTH young man, that’s where the action is, and … someone else to love.

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    214. Thronetender,

      No I didn’t mean that, as you say, why would he? I’m just hoping he will meet a long overdue sticky end but I’m not convinced the show will kill off two baddies (Ramsay and WF) in quick succession.
      I’m just intrigued as to what will happen there. It has to be something significant surely

      Also….Has Jaime left Edmure at River Run? I know he can leave Lannister forces there but would he leave Edmure, or take him back to the Twins?

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    215. Thronetender: As much as he might subconsciously be forming those wishes to choose and be free, everything in his consciousness, and let’s face it, everything in his pants, is still tuned to, turned-on by and devoted to her, and her alone. After the Twins, he intends to head back to KL. Unless, on the way back, he gets the horrifying news that the city has been turned to cinders and that Cersei and Tommen are dead.

      Not in the books. In the books he doesn’t care about her and he follows Brienne (where, we don’t know… but it’s almost 100% not to KL). He had every intention of returning to KL there too, but for his duty as KG and for his son. This isn’t the books you say? They’ve given Jaime different motivations here you say? Doesn’t matter – they’re doing it to be ironic and so we’ll be genuinely shocked when he takes off in the opposite direction as KL. He’s not going back to KL.

      I’m one of the very, very few people who thinks this though. So I recognize I don’t have much support in the matter. That’s OK. It’ll be interesting if I’m right.

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    216. kit_hepburn,

      I think that they had Jamie banished in order for there to be a reason for him not to be in KL at the time of the trial. In the books, he has Cersei’s message burned, although he thinks about returning after RR and after the Brakens and Blackwoods have resolved their issues, but

      that’s when Brienne appears.

      There are several groups of people wondering around the Riverlands (Brienne and Pod, Sandor and the BwB, possibly Arya), I keep wondering if their arcs start to collide at some point.

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    217. Flayed Potatoes:

      Funny how people view Ned’s honor as a negative thing. Yes, it didn’t help him in KL, but it earned him respect in the North where he kept the peace for all those years as Warden. Clearly he was doing something right.

      And his being so Ned-like is probably the reason why the North will follow him as a leader as they all fight together in the coming war.

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    218. ygritte,

      I don’t think he’s holding any grudge against her. He knows in his heart that Arya didn’t kill him not because she wanted him to suffer but because she wanted to spare him. He heard her recite her list every night, and he’s in that list and yet when she had the chance to kill him, she couldn’t bring herself to do it.

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    219. ForestLight,

      I seem to recall reading that adolescence is a modern invention. 13 year olds could be considered adults in Medieval times. And even beyond. Hence the, to us, absurdly early ages for marriage that many states provided for well into the 20th Century. Jon, Robb, etc.. would be considered adults. Sansa and Dany once they were able to bear children.

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    220. Darkrobin: I think that they had Jamie banished in order for there to be a reason for him not to be in KL at the time of the trial.

      Yes that, but either the writers or director made some comment about this after the episode saying that it had greater significance than that, that it meant that Jaime was the head of the household and could now marry (and not a moment too soon).

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    221. kit_hepburn,

      Good point. And as he may have claims to the Iron Throne if Tommen dies (through ties between the Baratheons and Lannisters way back when), that could be significant.

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    222. Jack Bauer 24:
      http://wikiofthrones.com/2145/liam-cunningham-thinks-kit-harington-will-win-awards-battle-bastards-performance/

      Liam says Kit will win awards for BotB.

      Halfman:
      Absolutely!! He is certainly the hero and I’m with Liam Cunningham, he deserves awards for his portrayal as he is not the typical hero as so often appears on our screens.

      I’ll be shocked if Kit doesn’t get nominated for the Emmys and the Golden Globes this season.

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    223. Sam,

      I certainly hope he gets a nom, he definitely deserves it, but I don’t know, it seems to me that these award shows like to keep repeating the same nominees, so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Peter Dinklage with yet other nomination.

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    224. Darkrobin: Good point. And as he may have claims to the Iron Throne if Tommen dies (through ties between the Baratheons and Lannisters way back when), that could be significant.

      Indeed. And it’s not as though I think this is going to become immediately significant, it’s just that I find it an interesting ball they’ve put into motion and a bit of a “hanging gun” so to speak, as I mentioned earlier.

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    225. Thronetender,

      Freys are now among the great houses of Westeros, ruling over the Riverlands, one of the 8 constituent regions of the Seven Kingdoms. Technically, they are equal in status to the Lannisters who also rule one of the regions, the Westerlands. They are both vassals of House Baratheon. That’s de iure.

      Of course, de facto Lannisters are the main power behind the throne. Though, with the latest developments, the balance of power has been shifting towards Tyrells for some time.

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    226. With Varys on the prowl…though not easy, Dany won’t have as hard a time taking over Westeros as it looks. Let’s not forget Dorne is now ruled by the Sand Snakes and Oberyn’s paramour, no love lost there for anybody in King’s Landing, so there is an alliance waiting to happen.

      In the North yes Jon and Sansa have Winterfell but not all of the northern houses were with them, the biggest either stayed out or pledged for the Boltons. They would have lost but for the House Of Aryn and brave Lord Robyn (future maniac) entering the fray. So yes they have the Knights Of The Vale with them. But it’s not enough. Besides they are kind of stuck in the North, facing now the Freys and Lannisters…so more alliances there and perhaps for more ahem…obvious reasons…

      If King Robert’s bastard gets a hold of Storm’s End and revives House Baratheon well you can see Dany’s map of potential allies forming up. Of course something tells me that because Winter Is Coming and the cold winds are rising…that will add some expediency to say the least to all of this…oh just thinking of Dany landing at the Red Keep…

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    227. I had to chuckle at Kit’s comment saying that he’d hit Iwan in the face a couple of time accidentally during the filming. Followed by: “I had to buy him pint after that one!” to which Iwan replied: “That was good!”

      Nice one 🙂

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    228. Nadia,

      I agree that Sansa should have told Jon about the Vale. I’m upset with her about that, and I also worry that she may not be as trustworthy and supportive as Jon needs her to be. It upsets me that she would go to Littlefinger and he would be their savior.

      BUT: I’m not convinced it would have mattered to the immediate battle. She didn’t know if The Vale would come because she had no word from them. Jon already made it clear he wasn’t going to wait, or ask for help from more families after so many had refused him.

      He needed and wanted to move fast, and had a good plan in place (which he ignored after Ramsey killed Rickon.) It would have been suicide for Jon to sit around at a camp waiting to see if help would arrive or send out more ravens, or whatever.

      There is a huge problem with Littlefinger though. He has shared way too much information with Sansa and she has seen and known a lot of his dirt. Plus how can she ever forget he was the one who delivered her to Ramsey.

      If for no other reason, I cannot see her ever trusting Littlefinger again, much less marrying him. Altho I can see Littlefinger taking flight out the Moon Door at some point. I also believe that Littlefinger sees Sansa and Jon both as a threat. Jon is because he is a Stark at Winterfell, and Sansa is because she knows his secrets.

      I’m going to hope for the best, and expect Sansa to do the right thing by Jon. Clearly he needs someone with her strength to advise him as much as he needs Davos and the others.

      One last thing:It will be interesting to see how Jon discovers who his real parents are. Bran at Castle Black will be the most obvious source, but I guess it’s possible Littlefinger might know too. In any event we will probably see Jon in the Crypt at Winterfell soon enough to say good bye to Rickon.

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    229. Mr Fixit,

      How do the Freys line up with Lord Baelish who is the Lord of Harranhal and Lord Paramount of the Trident? Isn’t he their liege lord as he replaced the Tully’s as Lord Paramount. Or did he receive the second title on the show? I don’t recall the particulars. Lord Protector of the Vale, Lord Paramount of the Trident, defacto military ruler of the North (well he has the largest army in the North at a minimum).

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    230. Markus Stark,

      I don’t think the point was so much to see Jon screw up and Sansa be correct, but moreso show that Sansa grew out of her pride and honor when Jon could not.

      Honestly, I don’t blame Sansa for withholding the Vale from Jon at first. LF sold her to Ramsey. She was locked in a room and raped every day for weeks because he claimed he didn’t know he was like that.
      I would not trust Jon not to override her pride and anger or go behind her back to ask the Vale for help. It was important for Sansa to overcome that on her own. Otherwise she would have hated Jon (also Jon is too emotional and unsavvy like Ned to be trusted to handle Littlefinger at any extent anyway) after and never trusted him again. She eventually understood that she needed the Vale to survive more than her pride.

      For the tent scene, I imagine she withheld the Vale because she had no idea if Littlefinger would even come after blowing him off. She sent a raven that could have been shot down and counting on the Vale showing up while snow piles up and food runs lower if they don’t is an even bigger gamble.

      As for the massacre of their army? That’s on Jon. Sansa was 100% correct that Ramsey would get to him, and he did. They would have had a chance or at least a lot fewer deaths if he didn’t break rank and cause the charge. Sansa wrote off Rickon and has one boy’s blood on her hands. Jon did not and has Rickon’s blood and the blood of hundreds of his own men on his. He never got over that nobility and pride. He was willing to die and lose at the iota of a chance that he could have saved Rickon.

      The only way this could have gone differently is if Sansa took LF’s offer up front and they could count on it. Even then, Ramsey may have simply holed up in the castle and all the horses in the Vale couldn’t ride up the walls.
      But while in Winterfell, Sansa had every reason to believe “the north remembers”. She had people telling her this, asking her to send signals. People getting flayed just to get information to her.

      So while that moment could have changed the tide in their favor, I don’t get the Sansa hate. She had every reason to blow off LF. Every reason to expect the “north remembers” and was every bit right about Jon being too emotional to handle Ramsey.

      A choice was made and it wasn’t ideal. It was several peoples’ fault and lots of people died. Welcome to Game of Thrones.

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    231. Darkrobin:
      kit_hepburn,

      Good point.And as he may have claims to the Iron Throne if Tommen dies (through ties between the Baratheons and Lannisters way back when), that could be significant.

      Strongly feel that heritage going back in generations will not count post WWs – only power, conquering, or maybe negotiated agreement among all Westeros.

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    232. kit_hepburn: Jaime was the head of the household and could now marry (and not a moment too soon).

      Jaime will marry and sire Lannister heirs. Speculation about Jaime’s wife? Many possibilities.

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    233. ygritte:
      Sam,

      Do you think the Hound will at first hold it against her that she did not give him a mercy kill or will he be thankful she didn’t because he was able to pull through?

      Depends if she brings him a chicken or not.

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    234. Sam,

      Many fans ship Jaime and Brienne. I don’t. They know each other well from their journey together in intensely difficult circumstances. Their emotional attachment is not romantic, and a marriage would not be that politically useful. We’ll see what the books and show do.

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    235. Darkrobin,

      Just because you’re considered an adult doesn’t mean you still can’t be considered young and foolish. For example, most people don’t expect 21 year olds to be making brilliant decisions.

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    236. ForestLight:
      Nadia,

      I still keep going back to how nonsensical and annoyingly artificial this Jon/Sansa drama has been this season.

      The conflict created lessens our respect for the characters. Now we criticize them and suspect their motives going forward. That is a loss.

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    237. TheTouchofFrost,

      Spot on. It’s why I fell in love with the show in the first place, the dynamic / unique / unpredictable story telling. No one was ever safe. Ned, The Red Wedding, Oberyn – these are the moments that made the show famous. Now it’s just a bunch of predictable fan service. There wasn’t one iota of tension in either the Mereen or Winterfell storyline because the conclusions were obvious. I knew very early on in the season that the North would be won back by the Starks and that Sansa would have her revenge moment to appease all of the sensitive people. And as the season progressed, it became obvious the Knight’s of the Vale would come to the rescue. Very little stuff that’s interesting happening this season. The show used to be very dark too, now it’s just about making people feel good. Ah well, I’ll always have those first 5 seasons. They were special.

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    238. Dani,

      Dawn has been referred to many times in the books. The legend is it was made from a shooting star. My hunch is that it has properties similar to Valyrian steel, and can kill WWs. Something about it impacts the future war.

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    239. Many fans ship Jaime and Brienne. I don’t. They know each other well from their journey together in intensely difficult circumstances. Their emotional attachment is not romantic, and a marriage would not be that politically useful. We’ll see what the books and show do.

      Watch the post-show interviews with NCW, D&D and Mark Mylod. It’s romantic. It’s a love story. They love each other, they just can’t/won’t do anything about it at this stage. Bronn was the show’s truth-telling mechanism spelling out to the audience that they want to have sex with each other. When Jaime gives Brienne Oathkeeper back, he was saying that she keeps his heart, etc. etc. And many other ridiculously romantic statements from everyone involved in the execution of this story. This isn’t supposed to be ambiguous anymore (if it ever was).

      Is it a tragic love story? Is it one that is going to have significance to the overall tale? Debatable. But I feel like not seeing their connection as romantic is just going to make people confused going forward. It’s romantic. They’ve said it’s romantic. They’ve said they *intended* it to be romantic. So that’s how it should be read.

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    240. Jack Bauer 24: What do you think the final scene of the season will be?
      snip
      I’m going with either NK at the Wall or Dany leaving for Westeros.

      The episode title suggests that it will end with something to do with winter. So my guess is at the Wall, either it falling or the WWs and their army gathering just outside, north of the Wall. That is, more like Season 2.

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    241. Marlana,

      Yeah…I think they could have done both though. I honestly don’t think D & D wrote up to their capability for this season. There were some major red flags just in the first episode that hinted to me that something was different this year. I don’t know if they decided to do some very late rewriting in response to the audience’s reaction to Sansa rape or Dorne, or if there was some turmoil in there writer’s room, or if it was just too much to ask of them to come up with a new great plot on top of all the other stuff they do each year, but something was off.

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    242. Mihnea,

      Really? I hear the first 4 seasons stayed pretty close to the general outline of the books and as a viewer I didn’t find them predictable at all. Season 5 wasn’t predictable to me either. And I disagree that the good guys necessarily HAVE to win, but even if they did, you can have a little more suspense in how you get there. The whole planet knew the Knight’s of the Vale were coming to the rescue and that Ramsey was a goner. And the conflict between the Slavers and Dany was completely non existant, she has 3 dragons, a bazillion man army. Again, 0 suspense. It’s just going through the motions en route to what we know is going to happen.

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    243. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      There is zero suspanse for Meereen in the books. Dany will get the Dothraki and she will win.

      The show actually does suspanse better then the books.
      Book stuff.

      Arya meets a hermit lady who all but says Catalyn, Balon will die. Dany actually sees the RW and Robb with the direwolf head n book 2/S2. It is obvious Roose will betray Robb. And the RW is all but obvious 2 chapters before. Dany also sees a vision in S2 with the Dothraki kneeling to her….etc. Cersei’s vision is also longer and you can easly guess who she should truly fear,…etc. Joffrey’s death is also much more obvious.

      If anything the show made these early events much more shocking then they were in the books.

      Fully expect book-reders to jump on me. But honestly I don’t care.

      The transition from act 2 to act 3 is mostly obvious. Because you can guess and feel where each character has to be and around 70-80% of times you will be right, if you paid a bit attention and just drop the entire notion that there will be shocking twists.

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    244. Mihnea,

      Whether the book is or isn’t obvious, it’s irrelevant really, because it’s up to D & D now to tell a good story and continue the good work they’ve done. It doesn’t necessarily have to be huge shocking twists, but some misdirection and unpredictability to keep us off balance and interested. Also a little creativity. The ending to the House of B & W couldn’t have been more tropey / uninteresting to a storyline that had been awesome up until that point. Remember the idea I brought up in the other thread for Winterfell? I know you didn’t like it, but something along the lines of that where we’re legitimately scared that something bad could happen to Jon or Sansa. That’s called suspense and it makes the story more exciting.

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    245. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      Arya’s story is the most obvious filler. Perhaps Dany’s is a bit more. These are fillers masked as training/growing arcs. But it isn’t it’s just Martin trying to fill the 5 year timeskip and put the characters where they need to be for arc 3.
      The moment you accept that this is a filler arc just putting characters in their place for arc 3, the more you will enjoy it.

      When Martin scrapped his 5-year timeskip half of the stories became filler.
      She isn’t going to be a FM, she isn’t going to go meet Dany…etc.

      She will try and become one, find out she can’t and run away. I expect it to go very similar in the books, just replace the Waif with a random FM.

      There is no need for artificial tension. They won’t die at the end of arc 2. They simply won’t.

      For crying out loud, before the entire timeskip debacle there was a description of TWOW saying ”Dany struggles to rule the seven kingdoms”.

      This isn’t about DD or Martin. It’s about the general story.

      I hate, HATE, where the story went. Both book and show. I hate Arya’s filler, and Dragon ball z time chamber, where she is put just because the story isn’t ready for her arc 3 part. Same with Sansa, but thankfully the show fixed this for me. Same with Jon and Dany and Tyrion….etc.

      But I feel this way since 2006-2011. I have long accepted the story going in a direction I don’t like and just enjoy the ride, at least I try, the show has made it very nice, with occasional slips, but the books have long since lost me.

      Rant over I’m going to sleep.

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    246. Lady Snow: I loved that scene! I actually hit rewind and said is that Drogon? It was like an echo of the Hound stomping thru the woods with his axe.

      I saw this post earlier but just went back and re-watched. I paused a lot, and I couldn’t believe how Rhaegal is almost as big as Drogon – or at least Rhaegal’s wingspan looks about 60 to 75% of that of Drogon’s, or more. The little dragons aren’t so little considering how big Drogon is. Here are screenshots:

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/749myui6vrh0vwi/AABx6Lvwkp9N6nmv_1imWLkZa?dl=0

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    247. kit_hepburn: Yes that, but either the writers or director made some comment about this after the episode saying that it had greater significance than that, that it meant that Jaime was the head of the household and could now marry (and not a moment too soon).

      Wow, that does sound ominous indeed! Like Jaime might be the surprise groom of honor at the Twins. Though that would make even the Grumpster jump for joy, what could Lord Frey possibly do to cajole the Kingslayer into marrying into that family.

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    248. Darkrobin,

      I seem to recall reading that adolescence is a modern invention. 13 year olds could be considered adults in Medieval times. And even beyond. Hence the, to us, absurdly early ages for marriage that many states provided for well into the 20th Century. Jon, Robb, etc.. would be considered adults. Sansa and Dany once they were able to bear children.

      True, but current brain research shows that kids don’t really have great decision making skills into there teens if that. So I cut these kids a ton of slack for their mistakes.

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    249. LatrineDiggerBrian:
      Marlana,

      Yeah…I think they could have done both though. I honestly don’t think D & D wrote up to their capability for this season. There were some major red flags just in the first episode that hinted to me that something was different this year.

      Agree. Maybe just preoccupied with the goal of exceeding the previous spectacle and the work of managing the awesomeness. Attention was focused away from constructing a gripping story. A throw down to all competitors. They may feel they can rest on their go big laurels and demand anything in future opportunities, and that awards go to large performing forces.

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    250. Jack Bauer 24:
      So what’s left for Theon? Will he be a background character now? Will he join the Unsullied?

      It depends if he is over his compulsion to seek approval for his outsized achievements. If he still goes rogue to do something he thinks is awesome, he will ruin things for some people.

      Does he still hate the Starks and think they denigrated them? Does he seek revenge?

      How he views his history will control his behavior. Could be interesting.

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    251. kit_hepburn,

      Yes, there is a lot of calling it romantic. Writers are selling it but not showing it. Romantic doesn’t seem realistic to me and not realistic for the time in history.

      Jaime’s and Cersei’s love / codependency seems more realistic, even though supposedly secret.

      So will this be unplighted love? Two people suffering for the love they can’t actually do? Elaine guarding the shield of Lancelot? They have divergent paths, and other tasks and other people to manage.

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    252. Marlana:
      Dani,

      Dawn has been referred to many times in the books.The legend is it was made from a shooting star.My hunch is that it has properties similar to Valyrian steel, and can kill WWs.Something about it impacts the future war.

      Eric Dayne, Lord of Starfall, is squire to Beric. It would be fitting for Dawn to go to him, when it is found and groups assemble at WF.

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    253. Halfman:
      Thronetender,

      Also….Has Jaime left Edmure at River Run? I know he can leave Lannister forces there but would he leave Edmure, or take him back to the Twins?

      In the book, Edmure is on his way to

      Casterly Rock with 400 Lannister guards. Tom O’Sevens will probably try to get the BwB to rescue Edmure same as they massacred the detachment of Freys returning to the Twins.

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    254. Marlana: Yes, there is a lot of calling it romantic. Writers are selling it but not showing it.

      …uh, yes they are? The strong romantic musical cues and the ridiculously over the top longing stares, and the other characters pointing out how the other actually feels (Cersei’s “you love him” and Bronn’s… well, everything Bronn said Episode 8). Plus other things.

      That they have divergent paths and other people to manage has always been the heart of their conflict, but as one should pick up on with storytelling, conflicts often reach a breaking point. Conflicts don’t remain a static factor over the course of a whole story.

      I guess we should all just watch Episode 10 and next season to find out if there’s anything to this.

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    255. Flayed Potatoes: Funny how people view Ned’s honor as a negative thing. Yes, it didn’t help him in KL, but it earned him respect in the North where he kept the peace for all those years as Warden. Clearly he was doing something right.

      Something I remember when people are criticizing the naivety of Ned. He along with Robert prosecuted a whole war which they won. Surely Ned dealt with politics to raise an army, keep them fighting and marching with him, negotiate with Houses, etc.. He had to be effective politically then, beyond his position of authority.

      The respect the North held for him resulted from his deeds and legend, which is part of politics. Some things he did in KL were wrong, some things he did there could have turned out in his favor but didn’t. Ned was more than a one dimensional political doofus.

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    256. LatrineDiggerBrian,

      I do see what you are saying but I wonder – if you were joe viewer who just watched the shows each week, would they be as predictable? I don’t think so. We are so focused on making predictions and speculating all the different ways things can happen, that when one of them do its like, well of course that happened. Doesn’t mean they aren’t predictable sometims but possible explains why they seem so much more to us

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    257. ash,

      I honestly don’t read this board that much during the week and if I do make a post, I just read the responses to what I said. Throughout the season I try not to even watch the previews. So I’m not in here as much reading what you guys have to say or looking at that images of next weeks episode because I want to stay in the dark. I mainly just give me reaction to the previous episode then sometimes pop in a little in different threads. The Little Finger Knight’s of the Vale thing was so obvious though, you didn’t have to read this board to figure that out.

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    258. Marlana,

      Agree with this. Supposedly the Battle of Winterfell was a 25 day shoot. The spectacle of the battle was awesome and there was a lot of innovative stuff in it, but it all adds up to nothing for me if the story telling is bleh. Every summer there are these huge blockbuster movies with amazing CGI and action sequences, but ultimately no one really remembers most of them because the stories are shit.

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    259. Marlana,

      Part of Nedd’s “legend” was that he killed The Sword of the Morning in single combat – or something like that. That’s one part of his “legend” that was true only in Nedd’s telling of it.

      Maybe the author is exploring the idea that these things we believe in, like history and legend.. are written/told by unreliable narrators. That people, sometimes good people, have biases, they have loyalties that cause them to lie about big things and small ones.

      There’s another one that bugs me… that a Stark must always be at Winterfell. I mean, really? Could that just be so that the castle is less likely to be sacked and seized? So it’s a “legend” based on possessiveness, essentially?

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