Game of Thrones Memory Lane 609: Battle of the Bastards

game-of-thrones-battle-of-the-bastards-image-jon-snow2

A Battle for the ages, and the last of the Epic Nine’s. Welcome to all as we near the end of our stroll to kill time (along with a few Boltons and Wildlings and slave masters) before Season 7. A man’s name is Oz and I have been commissioned to guide you through what was truly a gargantuan mountain of casualties, all within a 60-minute run time.

You can zig-zag until your heart is content. But for this Battle, the ink is already dry…

RodeoFX_GOT6_008_final

“The city is on the rise.”

We open with signature Sapochnik as we follow a single one of the great balls of fire attacking the pyramid of Meereen by order of the slave masters. Tyrion explains to Dany that while it doesn’t look entirely harmonious, the city has actually made some improvements while she was cooking the Dothraki perverts.

untitled-180

Dany says that she will burn cities to the ground and we are once again reminded about the cache of wildfire below King’s Landing. Tyrion urges her to not take after the Mad King (also, see: the Mad Queen in “The Winds of Winter”, a wonderful episode to be explored tomorrow by our own Vanessa Cole). He then offers an alternative…

GOT_MP_101815_EP609-5730[1]

“You surrender.” “No, you surrender.” “No, I said it first.”

Dany and company meet with the slave masters to agree to terms of surrender. At first, the masters believe they are dishing the terms, at least until Drogon swoops in. Slaver’s Bay will be renamed shortly after, and Grey Worm gets a two for one slash with his short blade on the masters. Daario leads in the Dothraki horde to take care of things on the ground while the other two dragons join Drogon in the water barbecue.

Meereen Battle 6x09 (14)

There had been a few past instances where the dragons and the CGI didn’t present well on-screen, but the battle in Slaver’s Bay looks phenomenally epic, as it deserved to. Within hours of returning, Dany has retaken control.

tumblr_inline_o92ibls9FG1r89lqz_500

“I’m up for anything, really.”

Later on in Meereen, Dany and Tyrion consider the terms of Yara and Theon in regards to forming a new alliance before Euron can show up with his big cock. Dany and Yara quickly find common ground as women leaders and the issues each had with their respective fathers. In the end, the two houses form an alliance that would give Yara control of the Iron Islands while recognizing Dany’s claim to the throne and adding 100 more ships to her fleet.

landscape-1466070565-giphy

I’m a Bastard. You’re a Bastard. Wouldn’t you like to be a bastard too?

Finally, the bastards meet face to face to discuss their round of terms. Jon suggests settling it the old-fashioned way: one-on-one combat with Ramsay and saving the lives of thousands of men. But Ramsay knows better as he has heard rumors of Jon being the greatest swordsman ever and declines, stating that he has the numbers and knows he can win with his army.

tumblr_o91u4gKG511u609jdo1_500

Give the girl some credit, and happy shitting.

Sansa-SNARK-am-i-right

Jon, Davos and Tormund discuss battle strategy and Tormund is educated on pincer moves. After the meeting, Davos and Tormund discuss demons, sour goat’s milk, and walking around all night before a battle with active bowels. Meanwhile, Sansa voices her frustration about not being consulted considering she knows Ramsay better than any of them. She tells Jon that Ramsay is the best at manipulation and correctly predicts that he would wait until they made a mistake to make his move.

And then, viewer frustration. Sansa tells Jon that they don’t have enough men to which Jon replies that they never will. To his knowledge, there are no more Houses to rally. So why didn’t Sansa tell him about the Knights of the Vale? Continue the debate below. Or don’t. Again, the ink is dry.

rehost%2F2016%2F9%2F13%2F34876113-61eb-4f6e-91b9-1787c44fa2ea

Jon to Mel to Davos (also known as the reason that there will not be a Davos and Mel: Love is Hell spinoff).

Jon visits Mel in the official R’hllor tent and tells her that if he were to fall that she is not to resurrect him. She states that it is not her decision to make, but rather it is the will of the Lord of Light. Segue to Davos on his long night of walking before battle, coming across an area where a fire once burned. Davos finds the toy stag he gave Shireen in Season 5 and realizes immediately what took place. The facial expressions alone tell the story of his heartbreak and distress and remind us that Liam Cunningham is one hell of an actor (especially when he confronts Red Velvet, but that’s next episode).

GOT609_092915_HS_DSC_8858[1]

Bob

If you listen to the commentaries on the Blu-Ray during this episode, you will hear Sapochnik, Harington and Sophie Turner in dialogue like they are sitting around a campfire having cocktails, all while referring to the Battle as “Bob.”

This was one of those Battles that viewers speculated was inevitable for quite some time, and to be able to pull it off and meet expectations was going to be a tough order to fulfill. But they had the right man for the job, and it did not disappoint. If you were disappointed, maybe you need to go watch it again and realize the ridiculous amount of careful writing, choreography and cinematography that had to work in unison in order for this not to look like a complete mess of bloody horses and dead manhood.

GOT609_092415_HS_DSC_8430[1]

Sansa was right. Zig-zag!

In her dialogue with Jon, Sansa essentially tells him that Rickon is dead no matter what. Making the opening of the battle even more intense than it already was, Ramsay walks out with Rickon on a rope, cuts it and tells him to run to his brother.

Then the zig-zag discussion among the fandom exploded.

This move by Ramsay got Jon and his army right where he wanted them, just as Sansa had warned, giving us these beautiful, horrific shots where Jon justifiably assumes that he is DONE…

ImbAmt

battle

But just as he thinks his second life is over, his army blasts in to join the bloody masquerade. Davos decides not to loose their arrows because it would kill some of their own men. Ramsay doesn’t give a shit.

untitled-244

I wrote this last year back when I did the episode recap about the ground action sequence. I could regurgitate it and reword it slightly, but what for? This essentially captures my true feelings while taking the scene in:

The Jon-centered shot of him maneuvering the battlefield during the ongoing chaos was pure genius. It somehow accurately depicted how fast things would be moving in that situation. The only comparison I can draw is my experience during my football days and how watching it from afar seemed normal speed while being on the field in the midst of it all felt like 200 miles per hour. Fantastic.

20160602_ep609_Publicity_still_047.00147762[1]The semi-circle of Bolton shields surrounding Jon and his men may have been the most frightening sequence, as the circle of death continued to grow smaller around them and the mountain of dead men continued to propagate. At this point, the only chance I gave any of them was contingent upon how many Boltons Wun Wun could destroy with his bare hands.

Jon Snow in Battle of the Bastards

Seeing no other alternative, Jon’s men decide to turn and run to climb the mountain of the dead, smothering Jon under a pile of humanity in the process. Once again, the second life of Jon seems to realistically be over until the Knights of the Vale and Littlefinger show up for the rescue. Oh, and in the middle of all that, Tormund took a snack break on Umber’s neck.

untitled-771

After the Littlefinger save, it was off to the races chasing Ramsay over to Winterfell. Wun Wun is able to bust through the gate only to finally meet his end with an arrow to the eye in what would be the last kill of Ramsay’s torturous life. Jon proceeds to kick Ramsay’s ass, the Stark banner hangs again from the walls of Winterfell, and the rest is television history.

In the end, it was a bad decision for Ramsay to not feed his dogs for seven days.

gallery-1466436264-ramsay-dog-death-l

And remember this going forward into Season 7… without Littlefinger, all of your favorite characters in the North, are DEAD.

giphy


Favorite Quotes:

“Despite appearances, I think you’ll find the city is on the rise.” –Tyrion

“It always seems a bit abstract, doesn’t it? Other people dying.” -Tyrion

“Will your men want to fight for you when they hear you wouldn’t fight for them?” –Jon

“You’re going to die tomorrow, Lord Bolton.” –Sansa

“Did you really think that cunt would fight you man to man?” -Tormund

“If I do, if I fall, don’t bring me back.” –Jon

“We may as well be taking shits back here.” –Davos

“Our time together is about to come to an end.” -Ramsay


Deaths

  • Belicho Paenymion and Razdal mo Eraz, slave masters
  • Rickon Stark
  • Lord Jon Umber
  • Wun Wun
  • Ramsay Bolton
  • Thousands of Wildlings, Boltons, and soldiers from multiple other houses

Pointless episode trivia

  • How many times is the word “Bastard” spoken in the entire episode?
  • How many arrows were in Wun Wun when he finally fell?
  • How many live horses were used in the filming of the BotB?

Beautiful Death for Battle of the Bastards, by Robert M. Ball

Beautiful Death 609 Battle of the Bastards Sansa Ramsay


A man shall return soon for in-season Looking Forward. Can you believe it?? And may there always be peace in your realm. -Oz

Follow Oz on Twitter

200 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. The special effects in the Meereen sequence are genuinely marvellous on a TV budget, particularly the sweeping bombardment shots. And the improvement between seasons of the shots of Dany riding on Drogon is huge.

      Likewise, on a visceral level, none can gainsay what Sapochnik and his crew pull off in the battle sequence in the North.

      And now we must say goodbye to Ramsay Bolton, the most effective leader and strategist on the entire show. Thinking back over his four seasons on the program, he never suffers a narrative setback as a result of anything within his own control. At every turn, Ramsay advocated for sadism as both great fun and sound policy, and at every turn he was vindicated, no matter what his worrywart father suggested. Being as evil as possible always produced exactly the results he wanted, or failed to inspire the results his father feared.

      Adieu, you master of the field. Cruel fate in the form of Littlefinger elevated the comprehensive failures Jon Snow and Sansa Stark over you, but we’ll never forget or cease to be inspired by your example.

        Quote  Reply

    2. I knew about the BotB but not the Battle for Meereen. I was pleasantly surprised by how well the dragon action was done. I’m interested in seeing the S7 battles to see how much Sapochnik was missed.

        Quote  Reply

    3. I personally think it was an injustice to rank Daenerys and dragons in Meereen at #84. I might rank THAT as #1 on “101 ‘misranked’ greatest moments” rankings. 😛 This episode is one of the best in the series and the Meereen pieces supported and held their own against BotB.

        Quote  Reply

    4. My explanations for why Sansa didn’t say anything:
      1) She really didn’t know whether Littlefinger would honor his promise and didn’t want to raise false hopes

      2) She’s a moron. I mean, we’re nice to her because she’s a rape survivor, and Sophie Turner seems cool and all, but face it, Sansa is one step above dingbat.

      I really have got nothing else.

      My explanations for why it really wouldn’t have mattered if she had

      1) Jon says: “Look, we can’t count on him. We’ve got to go”

      2) Jon says: “OK, we wait.”
      Ramsay says: “Hey, morons. Dying brother in here. Come get me! Neener! Neener!
      Jon and Sansa say: “OK, FINE!” (Jon isn’t the brightest bulb himself…)

      3) Jon says, “OK, we wait.”
      Littlefinger shows up and says: “Here’s the plan. You take those smelly fools in, lure the enemy, and then we charge in!”
      Jon says: “Um, that’s your plan?”
      Littlefinger: “Yeah, we can always go home if you don’t like it…”

      And thank you for not regurgitating the dumbest controversy on the Internet last year. “How could Sansa have known Ramsay didn’t feed his dogs?”

      Duh, Jon told her. They do talk. I’m assuming they’ll have sex at some point, but for now, they talk.

        Quote  Reply

    5. And remember this going forward into Season 7… without Littlefinger, all of your favorite characters in the North, are DEAD.

      DISAGREE!

      If Sansa had chosen to give LF up to the Vale Lords back in S4, I think she could have rallied the Vale to save WF on her own, appeal to bonds of family blah blah blah. No need for slimy LF.

      …of course, that would have been too easy.

        Quote  Reply

    6. What can I say? It was EPIC from start to finish.

      I knew the ‘Battle of the Bastards’ which dominated the final half would be huge, but for me I preferred the ‘Battle of Meereen’ . It was great when Dany’s other two dragons burst through the wall and joined Drogon to bring fire down on the master’s fleet . The way that whole scene was acted out before the dragons appeared was brilliant. The masters believing that Dany would surrender and leave Meereen and then all that changing with the arrival of the dragons.

      As for the BotB, I was also shouting at the TV for Rickon to zig-zag, but it was inevitable one of Ramsey’s arrow would find their target. The battle itself was brilliantly filmed. All those horses charging towards Jon. I’d no idea that was real and presumed it was all green screen with CGI later added. Kit Harington must have been shitting hot bricks at the time 😉

      … and finally of course Ramsey’s demise beating eaten alive by his own dogs! A fitting end to such a brutal character, but I’m sure we’ll all miss Iwan Rheon and his superb acting all the same 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    7. Clob,

      I personally think it was an injustice to rank Daenerys and dragons in Meereen at #84. I might rank THAT as #1 on “101 ‘misranked’ greatest moments” rankings. 😛 This episode is one of the best in the series and the Meereen pieces supported and held their own against BotB.

      Totally agree with you there It was a combination of great writing, great acting, great timing and not so little CGI. I was cheering at the moment Dany says, no I will be queen (mmmm words that effect) before drogon arrives.

      Oz, I have loved all of your posts, esp knowing you were unsullied, because your perspective was so new. This post was no exception. Very well done (and yes I like your shout outs to those complaining about some things that really in the end just didn’t matter like the zig zag – he was a child, he was scared shitless and he just wanted to see his brother. Straight ahead it was)

      Ive said before I don’t generally care for battle scenes, I either fast forward or close my eyes till its over. Blackwater cured me of that, and Castle Black made me realize how much goes into the choreagraphy and direction of something like this. But BOB was over the top glorius to watch (my DH happened to be in the room and said, wait, you can watch this but not come to a movie with me if its too violent? I just smiled)

      The chat between Davos and Tormund, along with his ultimate find, and grief, was one of those moments that I love about the show. The look on his face…I knew Mel would get it next week, and she did….)

      I am not going to get into Sansa, that dead horse has been beaten enough. Should jon have listened to him? yes. Should she have told him the truth? yes. But we’d have a very different story and a much less interesting battle .

        Quote  Reply

    8. Sean C.,

      Hah! Lady Dustin breathed a sigh of relief! She was about ready to strike from within with her band of rememberers then suddenly, out of nowhere, the WF castle was vacated to fight the good fight. Alas, LD and her rebels were reduced to simple bystanders. 🙂

      ——–

      But what a fight it was! Respect for Sapochnik. Forget the frustrating lack of zig-zig or Jon’s lack of discipline, Ramsay strangely not participating shirtless or Sansa’s wild card strategy, it was an amazing ordeal. Jon’s true rebirth from the bloody darkness, face-eating Tormund, Wun-Wun in beast mode, Davos attempting to command, the phenomenal cinematography on the fields. I was on the edge.

      Equally impressed with the action at Slavers Bay. Odd that R&V broke through their wall so easily…what took ya so long? I’m so glad Dany was riding Drogon during the scouring of the slavers ships.

      And in the end, Sansa demonstrates that her 6-season dance with pyscho/sociopaths has indeed become “part of her.” Two Starks, one damaged by death and rez and another damaged by Stockholm Syndrome. Never-ending intrigue!

      Groundbreaking episode, quirks and all.

        Quote  Reply

    9. Over rated episode… way too much violence

      Sansa rides in… in the final seconds and saves the day. 3/10 I know someone has figured out why Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the Littlefinger Vale army… but I haven’t read it yet. Maybe Sansa didn’t trust Jon? Then why did she go to Castle black in the first place? Sansa didn’t know for sure if Littlefinger would show up with the Vale army? maybe? I know Sansa has an ego and she didn’t want any help from Littlefinger but still. Sansa was complaining to Jon that they don’t have enough fighters to win the battle… Sansa should of told Jon about Littlefinger’s offer right then and talked to Jon about it… Sansa complained to Jon that he wasn’t listening to her and she has this life saving valuable information and she doesn’t tell him? What’s Jon supposed to do, read Sansa’s mind? A lot people got killed for no reason. I know I am in the minority and everyone loved it and that’s great. Maybe GRRM will explain it in the book.

      I liked the Meereen Queen Daenerys kicking ass with her babies scene a lot!!!!!!… hardly any violence. 10/10

      I just read your post WorfWWorfington good info!!!!

        Quote  Reply

    10. WorfWWorfington: 2) She’s a moron. …. but face it, Sansa is one step above dingbat.

      Okay, I admit it, I laughed. 🙂

      man, my junk work computer and poor internet don’t like all those gifs. 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    11. And THIS is my No.1 GoT episode which rivals even my favorite episodes from my other favorite TV shows. I couldn’t hold back with my review here. For those who complain about this episode, I really feel sorry for you and I wonder how much you even want to enjoy the show… either your expectations are too high or you’re not much of a fan in general.

      Lord Parramandas’s 9th review written on June 20th 2016

      Hello everyone and welcome to another review from Lord Parramandas. Yes, today I managed to watch the episode a bit earlier than usual and I can proudly declare that after two years my rank list has a new No. 1 episode.

      So where should I begin? I think I will leave the best stuff for the end and start with Meereen. First I can say, that I was pleasantly surprised by the resolution. I dreaded the “Fire & Blood” resolution and that Tyrion would play a role second to none in that. But thankfully, Tyrion reminded Daenerys of the Mad King Aerys and suggested a more refine plan. Yes, there were dragonfire and the dohtraki horde involved but it didn’t end with another civilization turned into dust. I can admit that when I first saw Drogon and the other two attacking the ships, I was like: “Wait, Fire & Blood will actually happen?” but a couple moments later I was: “Oh, they are burning the same ship. That could be it.” and thankfully I was right. I was even expecting the soldiers to turn on the noblemen but they just ran away and I can perfectly understand them. Why fighting in a war they cannot win?

      And then followed the scene with masters. Instead of being crucified or burned alive as some presumed, Tyrion gave them a simple choice. Which one of them should die? I can say that I was positively surprised by Yezzan’s character and the background they provided him. As opposed to Razdal and Belicio, he was a minor nobleman who just recently grew to power. That would explain him being “the voice of Astapor” – after the real Good masters were killed, Yunkai and Volantis probably installed some of their less prominent members to watch over the city. And of course, it was him who was spared and the other two who had their throats slit. Apparently Daenerys allowed them to remain rulers of the cities, again with the same condition as before. Like we say in our country “V tretje gre rado” or in English “Thrid time’s the charm”.

      And then followed Yara and Theon. A nice scene. They actually managed to negotiate that the Iron Islands will be able to keep the Salt Throne and their ruler a title “King” or “Queen”, but again with the condition that they abandon reaving and raping. Isn’t that what Balon’s father Quellon tried to establish?

      Another thing about Meereen: Does Razdal’s and Belicio’s death means the end of Sons of the Harpy? Or is there somebody else?

      “I fought and I lost. Now I rest. But you, Lord Snow, will be fighting their battles for the rest of your life.” Now I will move to the main stuff. If I described The Door with “utterly amazing”, then I will describe this episode with “No words”. This was different than anything we’ve seen in Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall. Yes, it was predictable, especially after following this site, but that did not effect the entertainment factor in any way. This battle was worthy of any movie and I would love to see it on the big screen one day.

      It began with a couple build-up scenes, such as “parley” with Ramsay and Davos finding the pyre of Shireen. The latter one will apparently be resolved in next episode, so expect a couple words about it next week. But something that I really liked was Jon/Sansa scene that followed the parley. All the tension that was building up between them finally broke out. Sadly, Sansa did not reveal LF’s plans to Jon for reasons unknown. But “Ramsay is the one setting traps” actually turned out to be true.

      The armies finally assembled. I have no idea what was the role of burning crosses and contray to earlier reports, there were no known characters upon them. I’m glad that we were spared any Rickon/Ramsay scenes in WF and from the looks of Rickon, he wasn’t particulary harmed, except for his clothes. But when I saw Jon riding towards Rickon, I knew he was a dead man. I really liked the build-up to Ramsay’s third arrow and I was sure that he will hit Rickon now. But no, he missed and Jon nearly reached him. And then suddenly… he hits him with the fourth arrow. A heartbreaking moment for Jon. And of course, Sansa was right and Jon fell into Ramsay’s trap.

      As it concerns the battle itself I can honestly say that despite the absence of wights and White Walkers, the athmosphere went into full horror mode. It was the bloodiest, most violent and claustrophobic battle I’ve ever seen. Ramsay’s archers shooting arrows and not caring if they hit their own men or the enemies, the pikemen with their shields slowly moving towards the enemy, the huge pile of bodies, missing limbs, spilled guts, Jon’s bloodied face… And of course Jon getting nearly crushed to death by escaping soldiers. And the soundtrack was amazing! Oh I forgot, the traitorous lord Umber got killed as well.

      And then, LF and the Vale knights arrive and defeat the Boltons. There lies a teeny tiny complaint how did Sansa manage to reach them. Or was it LF who reached her? Nevertheless, I’m glad that the camera focused on Sansa and that LF was no more than a cameo. I missed lord Royce but he may appear in next episode. After all, this episode was about the North.

      Ramsay escapes to WF but the battle is still not over. Wun Wun selflessly sacrifices himself to breach the gate. Ramsay’s arrow was unnecesary. He would have died either way. Jon finally charges at Ramsay and nearly beats him to death in the most graphic shot. And then, as Melisandre stated several times: “I’ve seen myself walking on the battlements of WF. I’ve seen the Bolton banners lying on the ground” – it finaly came true! But judging from Davos’s look, she may be in real trouble.

      And then, the final act. After so much speculating and leaked predictions (that I tried to avoid as much as possible), that Jon beats Ramsay to death or imprisons him, thus Ramsay surviving the season, my dream and probably dreams of many others finally came true – Sansa is the one to deliver the killing blow. Well, technically the hounds but someone had to release them, right? A satisfying way to end Ramsay’s storyline. By the way, those hounds were huge. I wonder what breed are they…

      I’ve stated that many times before but now I’m even more certain that Sansa has officially become my favorite GoT character. Was this a girl who (according to some people) lost all her agency in previous season and was reduced to helpless whining damsel in distress with no possible way of becoming a strong character? I’ve kept my faith in Sansa (and the producers as well) and I’m glad I was right.

      The lord’s verdict is clear – this episode rightfully earned its place on the top of my rank list, followed by Watchers on the Wall on rank 2.

      On a side note, I feel sorry for those, who did not enjoy (or even hated) the episode because of its predictability and I advise them to seriously reconsider watching the show.

      It took me nearly an hour to write this but it was worth it. See you again on next week, when the Winds of Winter will happen. With best regards from Lord Parramandas.

        Quote  Reply

    12. OT, but I’m looking for suggestions…I’m planning on preparing a Game of Thrones themed dinner for Sunday night, but I’m having some trouble zeroing in on a main course to make. My wife is making a cake shaped like a dragon egg, so thats all decided upon, but I need to figure out the meal.

      Any suggestions?

        Quote  Reply

    13. And remember this going forward into Season 7… without Littlefinger, all of your favorite characters in the North, are DEAD.

      Except he started it all by persuading Lysa Arryn to poison her husband and then warn Catelyn that the Lannisters were involved. So because of Littlefinger, a lot of our favourite characters from the North are dead!

        Quote  Reply

    14. firstone,

      The only plausible explanation other than Sansa being a moron and/or a selfish bitch is that she really didn’t think Littlefinger could be counted on.

      And as I said above, you can make a strong case that the way the strategy shook out – Use the wildings as cannon fodder to lure the Bolton army in and then strike with the Vale Army — is the best one.

      Regardless, this is why this episode falls below Blackwater and Hardhome for me.

        Quote  Reply

    15. If Ramsey was smart he would have shot Jon instead of Wun Wun while Jon was standing there staring at Wun.

      Thought this on my last re watch.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Clob:
      I personally think it was an injustice to rank Daenerys and dragons in Meereen at #84.I might rank THAT as #1 on “101 ‘misranked’ greatest moments” rankings. This episode is one of the best in the series and the Meereen pieces supported and held their own against BotB.

      Sorry, haven’t been following posts closely, but was Daenerys and the 3 dragons ranked #84 somewhere? Hahahaha….. 😀 It takes all sorts, I imagine. I have watched the Meereen battle countless times, literally on a loop when the episode first aired. The rest of the episode – a few times only. Those three dragons up in the air, and everything about Drogon was completely marvelous and jaw-dropping!

        Quote  Reply

    17. And I really hope again that this doesn’t turn into Sansa hate thread! She’s NOT a villain for god’s sake!

        Quote  Reply

    18. Clob:
      I personally think it was an injustice to rank Daenerys and dragons in Meereen at #84.I might rank THAT as #1 on “101 ‘misranked’ greatest moments” rankings. 😛This episode is one of the best in the series and the Meereen pieces supported and held their own against BotB.

      I second this!

        Quote  Reply

    19. Lord Parramandas,

      It’s inevitable and has already started. I’m just gonna ignore the noise and focus on the positive. I’m sick of the Sansa debates at this point (whether it’s pro or con). Hopefully the trajectory of the conversation about Sansa will change once we start seeing new episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    20. Mr Derp,

      Yes, that’s why I usually avoid WotW these days… half of the comments are usually negative on the posts and like I said countless times, I don’t remember the site being as negative as it is this year.

        Quote  Reply

    21. Sean C.,

      I don’t even plan to discuss anything with you… every time i come here, your comments are filled with intense criticism for the show.

        Quote  Reply

    22. For everyone’s info, the (truly) unsullied are at it again over at PATV. Amazing how much they remember despite avoiding all other fandom…

        Quote  Reply

    23. Lord Parramandas,

      I think, for whatever reason, season 6 really divided GoT fans like no other season. Some people think it’s the greatest season of anything ever and some hated it. Other than that, I can’t really comment on how negative or positive this site has been compared to other seasons. I personally haven’t noticed a big difference.

        Quote  Reply

    24. I was hoping that Oz would draw the honors of paying tribute to this episode, the last of the Epic 9’s in practice if not in spirit. Well done, good ser!

      The Battle of the Bastards is the best pure battle sequence that Game of Thrones – indeed, that any show on television, and most movies besides – has ever pulled off. The entire episode is packed with so many incredible elements that it can be hard to single one out. But taken together, it’s even more than the sum of its many impressive parts.

      In any other year, I would consider this episode to be the clear standout of the season, if not the series. That it’s followed by “The Winds of Winter” – which stands, in my personal opinion, as the best episode of the entire show and my favorite episode of television ever – is truly remarkable, and big reason why Season 6 is my favorite season. But this hour still comfortably ranks in my top 3 for the series. Perhaps if we’re lucky, Season 7 will surpass it, but it will be a tall order).

      Jon unsheathing Longclaw and facing down the charging Bolton cavalry! An iconic image, one that will live on long after this show has ended. The minute-long single-take shot tracking Jon through the chaos of battle! Masterful. Jon, after nearly being crushed under a pile of bodies, fighting his way to the surface to draw breath, finally making the decision at last to live, to truly live. Harrowing, and spine-tingling in its life-affirming power.

      I love that Tormund was the one to take down the wildling-hating Smalljon in such a brutal and primal way. One of my favorite pairings of an image and a music cue is when the Knights of the Vale are charging in as Ramin Djawadi’s soaring composition “Trust Each Other” begins. Right before the music swells, we briefly cut back to Tormund stabbing Smalljon to death, throwing back his bloodstained face in a visceral, cathartic scream. Then the cavalry smashes the Bolton lines. I’ve watched that particular moment, conservatively, at least 100 times. I still get chills, without exception.

      It doesn’t stop there. Jon beating Ramsay to within an inch of his life was one of the most savagely satisfying moments of the season. And of course, it culminates in the incredibly cathartic moment of the Starks reclaiming Winterfell. The moment when the Flayed Man of House Bolton falls to the ground and the Direwolf of House Stark is unfurled in its place is unrivaled in its symbolic significance.

      And Sansa feeding Ramsay to his own dogs? One of the most purely satisfying and well-earned deaths on the show. It was Ramsay’s time to die (and what a death it was!), but Iwan Rheon’s performance was fantastic. Over the course of his four seasons, he established himself as one of the most compelling and underrated actors on Game of Thrones. As monstrous as Ramsay could be (though still somehow mercifully toned down from his literary counterpart), Iwan made him not only bearable to watch, but fascinating. I could never take my eyes off him when he was onscreen.

      If anyone hasn’t seen that Anatomy of a Scene video for this battle, I would urge them to check it out. This entire episode was a technical marvel, and it was great to get at least a brief look at all of the behind-the-scenes work that went in to making it so. Every member of the cast and crew who worked on that sequence should be very proud. They created something truly special that will be remembered for many years to come. Their accomplishment is well-deserving of its Emmy wins for directing, writing, craftsmanship, and the perfect 10 it held for a long time on IMDB.

      And if all that weren’t enough, we got an amazing sequence in Meereen, punctuated with the formation of a new alliance between Dany and the Greyjoy siblings (and the launching of a new ship – Yara and Dany FTW)! I could gush about that for several hundred words as well, but I’ve rambled on long enough.

      I know that some have issues with certain narrative logistics in this episode. Trust me, I’ve heard them all. I’m sure they’ll be discussed here, so perhaps we will get in to them later. But when it comes to my own personal feelings about this episode, I’ll put the finest point I can on this: I don’t care. It doesn’t alter my opinion at all. Over a year after I first watched “Battle of the Bastards”, I’m still in awe of what was accomplished here. Thank you to David and Dan, the incomparable Miguel Sapochnik, and all of the cast and crew who brought that magnificent hour of television to life. They deserve all of the acclaim that we can offer them, and more.

        Quote  Reply

    25. ash: Ive said before I don’t generally care for battle scenes, I either fast forward or close my eyes till its over.

      And this is why the episode is not one of my favourites of the series, would make the Top 15 somewhere but outside the Top 5. It’s hard to fault it from the production and direction POV and I have no real complaints about it but it just doesn’t engage me as much as episodes which have the element of intrigue and surprise ( TWOW for me was much more enjoyable). I do give credit to how hard they try to make these battles different in some way to any we have seen before on TV, and truly portray the sheer mindless brutality in the will to survive first and worry about victory or defeat second.

      The non battle scenes gave me more enjoyment – most especially Lyanna Mormont’s fantastic stink eye at Ramsay!

      That’s a marker of how excellent GOT has been over the years and how many episodes have suddenly yanked the viewer in unexpected directions through close and intense “quiet” scenes, rather than a criticism of BotB – they have just raised the bar too damn high! It’s some series when my 8/10 places it well down my personal ranking!

      Mind you, those very hard to please voters at Tower of the Hand place this at #2 in their alltime episode ranking even above episodes which stay closely/rigidly to known book content – so what do I know 😀

        Quote  Reply

    26. Lord Parramandas,

      Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      Do you guys have a specific grading system that you go by or do you just put out a final number based on “feel”?

      A while ago I was thinking of doing a grade for each episode, but it got annoying trying to get a grading criteria down. I just do it based on feel now. I rate each episode from best to worst each season, then pluck my favorites in order until I get a finalized list.

        Quote  Reply

    27. QueenofThrones: If Sansa had chosen to give LF up to the Vale Lords back in S4, I think she could have rallied the Vale to save WF on her own, appeal to bonds of family blah blah blah. No need for slimy LF.

      …of course, that would have been too easy.

      And B & W wanted that emotional scene where they removed her from the Vale and gave her a White Wedding.
      I hope it’s different in books, I hope she convinces them on her own to support House Stark.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Mr Derp,

      If there are too many 10s, I usually change my criteria a bit, like I did after S4 and several of S1 episodes went from 9 to 8. But in general, I never rate episodes below 6 when it comes to my favorite TV shows or in case of GoT below 7.

      And my rank-list of episodes:

      60) The Night Lands (7/10)
      59) The Prince of Winterfell (7/10)
      58) Lord Snow (7/10)
      57) Breaker of Chains (7/10)
      56) Dark Wings, Dark Words (7/10)
      55) The Bear and the Maiden Fair (7/10)
      54) The Ghost of Harrenhal (7/10)
      53) The Kingsroad (7/10)
      52) The House of Black and White (7/10)
      51) Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken (8/10)
      50) Valar Dohaeris (8/10)
      49) The North Remembers (8/10)
      48) The Climb (8/10)
      47) Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things (8/10)
      46) Mhysa (8/10)
      45) Oathkeeper (8/10)
      44) Winter is Coming (8/10)
      43) The Wars to Come (8/10)
      42) First of His Name (8/10)
      41) Walk of Punishment (8/10)
      40) The Red Woman (8/10)
      39) The Pointy End (8/10)
      38) What Is Dead May Never Die (8/10)
      37) You Win or You Die (8/10)
      36) A Man Without Honor (8/10)
      35) Sons of the Harpy (8/10)
      34) Blood of my Blood (8/10)
      33) The Broken Man (8/10)
      32) Mockingbird (8/10
      31) Kill the Boy (8/10)
      30) Valar Morghulis (9/10)
      29) Garden of Bones (9/10)
      28) Oathbreaker (9/10)
      27) Fire and Blood (9/10)
      26) High Sparrow (9/10)
      25) The Old Gods and the New (9/10)
      24) The Wolf and the Lion (9/10)
      23) No One (9/10)
      22) A Golden Crown (9/10)
      21) The Gift (9/10)
      20) Two Swords (9/10)
      19) Second Sons (9/10)
      18) Kissed by Fire (10/10)
      17) Home (10/10)
      16) The Dance of Dragons (10/10)
      15) Baelor (10/10)
      14) The Lion and the Rose (10/10)
      13) The Laws of Gods and Men (10/10)
      12) Book of a Stranger (10/10)
      11) And Now His Watch Is Ended (10/10)
      10) The Mountain and the Viper (10/10)
      9) The Rains of Castamere (10/10)
      8) Mother’s Mercy (10/10)
      7) The Children (10/10
      6) Blackwater (10/10)
      5) Hardhome (10/10)
      4) The Door (10/10)
      3) The Winds of Winter (10/10)
      2) Watchers on the Wall (10/10)
      1) Battle of the Bastards (10/10)

        Quote  Reply

    29. Since I have mentioned the problems I have with this episode more than a couple of times, I’ll stick with what I liked here:

      The battle itself was one of the best I have seen on screen, both for the technical aspects and the gritty realism it portrayed. Loved the shot of Jon unsheathing Longclaw as the horses raced towards him and the following tracking shot of Jon as the battle is joined.

      The Davos- Tormund and Jon-Mel conversations before that.

      The stampede, with the claustrophobic scene of Jon being crushed by a pile of bodies, and his eventual fightback, leading to his spiritual resurrection.

      Dany and Yara meeting, I liked the dialogue, the acting, the chemistry between them, everything.

      Dany and Yara flirting

      The cgi in the Meereen battle, which was exceptional.

      Sean C.,

      Lol!

        Quote  Reply

    30. I think this was a very original way to do a battle, just like D&D said. Medieval battles never look this chaotic and dirty and it really changed the way I look at real history and great battles in history.

      A pure luck plays such an important part there. I always knew that, but this episode really helped me realize that.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Good recap. I see how Littlefinger is the reason all our favorite characters in the North survived the BoB but it was a self-serving action on his part. It will be interesting to see how he manipulates that “debt” in season 7, especially if more of his treachery is revealed. The conflict of knowing they (Jon, Davos, etc.) would be dead but for Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale against the fact Jon, etc. know Littlefinger cannot be trusted (to say the least!) should make for some dramatic moments. I guess the scene from the trailer of Jon and Littlefinger in the crypt is just an example of what could happen.

      I thought the Battle of Meereen was outstanding! The effects as well as the scene with Dany & Co. and the slave masters. This was a huge turn towards the west for them as they dealt with the slave masters, showed their strength so they could leave things stable as they go west, and collected needed ships. The scene and dialog were great, Grey Worm had a big moment, and Drogon landing next to his mom! I kept muttering “wow”….”wow”…”wow.” It is in my top 10 scenes or sequences of the series.

      In my area, our local PBS station ran a feature on the show Vicious where Iwan played a sweet character named Ashe from 8-9pm. Then right after that 9 – 10 pm, HBO ran BoB with Iwan as evil Ramsey. In just two hours, two such extremely different characters perfectly played by Iwan! Bravo to him.

        Quote  Reply

    32. This new Jon / Sansa rivalry is SO dumb, I hope they dont espend a lot of time exploring it, we have only 13/14 episodes left for God sake…

        Quote  Reply

    33. Sean C.: Being as evil as possible always produced exactly the results he wanted, or failed to inspire the results his father feared.

      Like inspiring his pet human to murder his lover, Myranda, and escape Winterfell along with his precious wife. Is that exactly the result he wanted?

      Or threatening to slaughter Rickon and all the Wildlings, which inspired Jon and Sansa to openly challenge his rule, which ultimately led to his and House Bolton’s downfall. Isn’t that exactly what his father feared?

      Or massacring half his own men, notably the cavalry, as part of a game to make his enemy commander suffer as much as possible. Only to leave his own army decimated and incapable of repelling enemy reinforcements.

      Or choosing to put an arrow into the eye of a dying giant for his own amusement rather than into the chest of the “greatest swordsman who ever walked ™” who proceeded to lay the beatdown on him.

      Or brutalising and tormenting his captive wife to the extent that rather than give him a quick death or even imprison him, she chooses instead to have him excruciatingly eaten alive by his own dogs.

      I think you exaggerate his accomplishments.

        Quote  Reply

    34. Mr Derp,

      In GoT case where there’s not that many episodes, I just rate how I feel… but when it comes to bigger series (LOST, The X-Files), I had to rank episodes inside each season first and then list them on higher/lower principle, using those inside rankings as guidelines.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Lord Parramandas,

      In a way… I write down the first episode of the series, and then I go to second episode and I decide if I should put it higher or lower than first one. And then third episode – higher/lower again… and fourth and fifth and so on and so on and at the end, I get a full ranklist.

        Quote  Reply

    36. mau:
      This was the best action scene Dany ever had. So far.

      You know what I like about this Dany scene? That she wasn’t the only person to deliver speeches for a change and that there was a focus on Tyrion as well.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Lord Parramandas,

      I rarely give out 10s to any episode of any series, even 9.5s are not all that frequent. The 10s are a very select and esoteric bunch indeed! Perfection should be hard to achieve…

      Mr Derp: Do you guys have a specific grading system that you go by or do you just put out a final number based on “feel”?

      On the first watch it tends to be by feel, but subject to revision on subsequent viewings because I always pick up things in the acting, writing or direction I missed. It’s mostly subjective “enjoyment factor” but I try to factor in some objectivity too.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Mr Derp,

      I don’t think that S6 was that controversial. I think S5 was, but S6 is a favorite or one of the favorite seasons everywhere you look.

      I think S6 even had fewer haters than S4. I remember the hate for that season LOL.

      “Your sister” controversy was a real testament to stupidity of book snobs.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Lord Parramandas,

      Thanks for the info. That’s exactly how I do it too. I have my favorite to least favorite episodes within each season listed, but I haven’t combined them into one big list for the entire show yet. I find ranking episodes within each season to be fairly easy, but it’s another story when it comes to placing my favorites of each season into a list.

      For example, my favorite episode of season 5 is Hardhome and my favorite episode of season 2 is Blackwater. I came to those conclusions rather easily, but deciding my favorite between Hardhome and Blackwater is very difficult. It’s a mood thing more than anything for me.

        Quote  Reply

    40. Lord Parramandas: You know what I like about this Dany scene? That she wasn’t the only person to deliver speeches for a change and that there was a focus on Tyrion as well.

      Yes. It was a great balance between them. His accomplishments in ruling Meereen weren’t ignored, just because his plan with the masters failed.

        Quote  Reply

    41. mau,

      Interesting. I didn’t realize there was that much hate regarding season 4. It’s my favorite season by far! To me, it has the most satisfying story arcs and conclusions.

        Quote  Reply

    42. I really liked those lines.

      Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear.

        Quote  Reply

    43. mau,

      S4 was a point when a hatred for TV show from book purists really started… people calling “The Children” awful episode and stuff. And yes “YOur sister” line… and it was also a point when a certain Wikia admin actively started to turn the site into show-bashing one, writing those long subjective articles and paying a lot more attention to books than show itself.

        Quote  Reply

    44. Mr Derp,

      Maybe you weren’t active back than, but on Reddit they declared E10 the worst episode in the history of the show LOL. And I’m not even joking.

      And the hate Alex Graves received by those lunatics was worse than Mark Mylod is facing now.

        Quote  Reply

    45. mau,

      Also, I remember the trashing of those skeletal wights… and now that’s the usual way how the wights are portrayed.

        Quote  Reply

    46. mau,

      I wasn’t posting here back then. I think I started posting on this site during season 5. I started participating in the same way a lot of people do. I was a long time lurker, but felt the need to get involved after a while (for better or for worse).

      “The Children” is one of my favorite episodes! The only part of that episode I hate watching is when Daenerys locks up her dragons, but other than that I thought everything in that episode was pure gold.

        Quote  Reply

    47. Lord Parramandas,

      A hatred for TV show from book purists really started in S1. 😀

      And by S2 it was almost impossible to discuss with any book fanatic on the internet.

      Especially because back then they still worshiped GRRM and believed that he cares enough for the story to finish it.

      Those were dark times for show watchers. Now preferring the show and bashing GRRM is almost mainstream, even in places that were safe spaces for book purists
      LOL

        Quote  Reply

    48. mau,

      I’m angry what happened to GoT Wikia… this site is awful now, all thanks to that admin that we all know. “In the books” articles are several times longer than actual articles about the show, and even much longer than those on official book Wikia. Not to mention the abusing behavior of him.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Lord Parramandas,

      In the first 4 seasons every fuck*ng scene was controversial because of them. They compared every thing to the books. I was so happy when I realized that there will be no books after S5. LOL

        Quote  Reply

    50. I just want to add that I think it was a very sensible idea to feature the two battles in the same show. The alternative could have led to accusations of two consecutive episodes being very much the same in content just with one in Meereen and one at Winterfell.

      Doing it this way, with the major action as so often in the penultimate episode of the series helps greatly I think in avoiding the cliche of cliffhangers and allowing the final episode of the series to start examining the consequences and help set up the following season. For me that is what made ‘TWOW’ a more powerful episode and alongside ‘The Door’ my season faves.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Ramsay's 20th Good Man,

      Well, it is somewhat exaggerated, since it is jocular in tone, but as to the rest:

      Threatening Rickon and the Wildlings did not ultimately bring about the downfall of his House, because Jon and Sansa did not cause said downfall. Ramsay easily kicked their asses, and that particular story merely exposed how overblown Roose’s fears of the Boltons’ vulnerability were. The only reason Ramsay lost was because of Littlefinger, who was already planning to take him down. In order to assume that that or his callous attitude toward his own casualties were consequential to his downfall, you need some basis to believe that Littlefinger’s original plan would not have worked, and there isn’t any, because everything else he envisions goes off without a hitch militarily and the Knights of the Vale are far more formidable than the greatly diminished Bolton/Northern forces at this point.

      One final shot at Wun-Wun is immaterial. Ramsay was already defeated at that point. He was just getting in his last few licks before inevitable death.

      One might fairly say his cruelty made his execution more brutal than it otherwise would have been, but again, Sansa was only in a position to do that because of Littlefinger.

      It would be one thing if ignoring Littlefinger was posited in the narrative as a flaw on Ramsay’s part, but it’s not. Littlefinger simply vanishes from the memory and visibility of everybody in the North other than Sansa from 503 to 609.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Lord Parramandas,

      But in the end of the day they’ve lost. All that energy invested in hatred was for nothing. The show is more popular than ever, GRRM doesn’t give a fuck about them any more, the books became a joke.

      I feel sorry for normal book-only fans, but for these snobs everything that happened was poetic justice. It feels good after everything that D&D, the actors and directors had to suffer from them,.

        Quote  Reply

    53. mau,

      Well, that admin made a YOutube channel in which he openly bashes the show now… filming 1 hour long videos to tell how awful something from the show is. “A video to explain why Battle of the Bastards is a writing and production failure”

        Quote  Reply

    54. mau,

      The videos last 1 hour, it must have taken extreme sadness over several days to make them!

        Quote  Reply

    55. WorfWWorfington:
      firstone,

      The only plausible explanation other than Sansa being a moron and/or a selfish bitch is that she really didn’t think Littlefinger could be counted on.

      And as I said above, you can make a strong case that the way the strategy shook out – Use the wildings as cannon fodder to lure the Bolton army in and then strike with the Vale Army — is the best one.

      Regardless, this is why this episode falls below Blackwater and Hardhome for me.

      Yeah that battle strategy ended up working quite well. The Vale destroyed the Bolton army in no time at all. I like that Sansa is trying to play the game and she has come a long way but still needs more insight and experience. Sansa should use Littlefinger as a alliance to learn more from one the best in season 7. Tyrion would have showed Sansa how to play the game and hopefully they will see each other again.

      Blackwater and Hardhome are both brilliant episodes. – Cheers

        Quote  Reply

    56. mau:
      Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      I wouldn’t even make videos that last 1 hour where I would praise the show. LOL

      My longest video I ever made as a review (non GoT in that case) was 36 minutes long and it was about an episode that was 105 minutes long and also contained a piano part at the end and a lot of non-episode related stuff. And I was positive through entire video.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Sean C.,

      In season 5, Roose counseled not to meet your enemies in the field when you’re in a position of strength. If Ramsay had stayed behind his walls and waited for Jon to attack, the battle would have gone much differently. After all, 500 men can hold Winterfell against 10,000, and Ramsay had a lot more than 500 men. He let his pride and his fondness for mind games to get the better of him.

        Quote  Reply

    58. Lord Parramandas:
      mau,

      Well, that admin made a YOutube channel in which he openly bashes the show now… filming 1 hour long videos to tell how awful something from the show is. “A video to explain why Battle of the Bastards is a writing and production failure”

      Lmao I watched a bit of the BtoB video and he took an interview scene Kit filmed for a movie he did (the tennis mockumentary “7 Days in Hell”) and claimed it was an interview Kit did in real life for GoT.

      I can’t even you guys lmao

        Quote  Reply

    59. Since this is a BtoB post, this video appeared about the battle in my subscription feed today. What a coincidence!

        Quote  Reply

    60. Young Dragon,

      Roose was speaking in a situation where they had an enemy with superior numbers who was bogged down by weather. As was noted in this episode, when you outnumber your enemies by better than 2 to 1, you can’t hide behind walls (nor is there really any reason to), or you will look weak. As well, the whole reason the Umbers joined was to kill the Wildlings. Refusing to do that is contrary to the purpose of their alliance. Pride and a fondness for mind games didn’t enter into it.

        Quote  Reply

    61. I just rewatched this episode last night. Am I the only one who still finds the ‘Jon gets buried’ section of the BoB visually muddled and narratively confusing? I am not impressed with the editing here. To me it is not at all apparent that Jon’s PoV is what we are supposed to be witnessing here – not until the following scene in which he wriggles out of the press of bodies. I find it the weak link in an otherwise well-choreographed battle sequence. Bits like this, where I come away feeling ‘Wait…what just happened??’ are the main reason why I tend to dislike action movies.

        Quote  Reply

    62. Ten Bears:
      Clob,

      “Every F*cking Chicken” = #1 Misranked

      Yeah, #26 is high(low?) for that one too but at least it was in the top 30. At #84 that’s twenty-four more than there are episodes, so that’s saying many episodes had multiple ‘greatest moments’ before getting to the Meereen battle. Hmm…

      I’ll let it go now – just had to snark on that ranking one more time. 😛

        Quote  Reply

    63. mau:
      Lord Parramandas,

      But in the end of the day they’ve lost. All that energy invested in hatred was for nothing. The show is more popular than ever, GRRM doesn’t give a fuck about them any more, the books became a joke.

      I feel sorry for normal book-only fans, but for these snobs everything that happened was poetic justice. It feels good after everything that D&D, the actors and directors had to suffer from them,.

      The hate for people who prefer the books is strong in this one. Can’t you tone it down a bit, in the interests of peaceful coexistence?

        Quote  Reply

    64. Lord Parramandas,

      If it’s the admin I’m thinking of that admin is “pimping” (is it alright to say that?) his videos on the forums here at WotW. If that admin reads this (as I said on another thread recently I don’t want to say things on the internet that I would be ashamed to say to someone in real life) I don’t think his videos will convert many people who don’t already share his views (and there are some who feel the same way). Maybe if he feels so strongly it will be beneficial for his health to have got it all out of his system.

      GoT and ASOIAF is really the first time I have become involved in a fandom and I think it may be the last (I read something about a teenager attempting suicide about something on a Stephen Universe [not a show I know anything about] website) . Most of the people who post on WotW seem to be reasonable though.

        Quote  Reply

    65. Mr Derp,

      1. 1 whole chicken
      2. Kidney pie WITH gravy
      3. 2 (more) chickens
      4. Every f’ing chicken in the store
      5. Water…no. F*ck water
      6. Wine
      7. Ale
      8. Half-burned ham
      9. Mutton chops
      10. Cornish hen (little bird)
      11. Chicken pot pie
      12. Wolf-shaped bread
      13. Sausages (RIP Theon’s toy)
      14. Whatever dessert Arya was flinging at Sansa in S1e1

        Quote  Reply

    66. Flayed Potatoes,

      Well to be fair this is the season she is invading so I get that.What I actually found interesting was that the editor of the video must agree with George’s main five cause they were the only characters named.

      If Jon cries in the crypts I’m gonna break down I swear to God lol.

        Quote  Reply

    67. mau,

      Here’s a few dirty secrets for book purists:

      * Dorne sucks in the books too.
      * Yes, Sansa doesn’t get raped by Ramsay in the books, but Jeyne does, and you all seem to forget about her. I guess rape only matters when it’s a character we watched grow up.
      * No one really gives a damn about Brown Ben Plumm. Sorry.
      * No one cares what color beard Daario has. No one really needs Peter Dinklage to go without a nose.
      * There is no functional difference between “Only Your Sister” and “Only Cat.” Nor is there one between “Edd, fetch me a block” and “Olly, get my sword.”
      * What you people, and I include Joanna Robinson as the chief instigator, did to the kid who plays Olly should result in criminal charges. You’re not cute. You’re not funny. You’re dangerous.
      * No one really cares who Coldhands is. I don’t think George really does at this point.
      * Other than that… good job, good effort.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Jenny,

      Unsullied fans are expecting Dany to kill Cersei this season because of this promo. They will be shook when my queen Cersei survives s7.

      Jon looks so over Littlefinger lmao. Can’t wait for him to put that weasel in his place.

        Quote  Reply

    69. 15. Deli sandwich with little plastic sword (so you can pull it out and say “Fine little blade…maybe I’ll pick my teeth with it”)
      16. Cake or crusted pie, so if your wife’s in on the joke she can serve you a slice, put it on your plate, while saying “HERE ….My Lord.”

        Quote  Reply

    70. Sean C.,

      Roose wouldn’t have cared about that, we’re he alive. He wouldn’t have went out into the field for the sake of appearances. He would have played it smart and reserved his strength. Lord Umber would have gotten his wish. When Jon and the wildlings attack the walls, they would have been massacred. Ramsay wanted to show how big and bad he was so he met them in the field. Were Roose alive, the battle would have gone much differently.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ten Bears,

      Dude, just order pizza and maybe whip up a couple of cheese dips and chips. I’ve been to some themed food parties and they always seem like good ideas, but they never really are.

      Maybe invest in some good wines and ales. Or make a bowl of chili and call it “the Brown”

        Quote  Reply

    72. Flayed Potatoes,

      Oh God! Jon in the crypts! It never occurred me to how he’d feel growing up not knowing anything about who his mother was … only to learn that all along he was living among her remains.
      Jeez. Must…get…another Kleenex box and decoy onion.

        Quote  Reply

    73. Firannion,

      Firannion, I don’t think anyone has it in for book fans per se. I like both media (I realise we are talking about GoT/ASOIAF here and not books and shows generally). If people have not been able to take to the show but have liked (even loved) the books that is okay; I don’t think any right thinking person would have a problem with that. There have been some people who prefer the books though (and I am not saying all people who prefer the books) who have made dismissive statements about show only watchers or people who are very enthusiastic about the show.

      I’ve nothing against healthy debate.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Flayed Potatoes,

      Judging by the promos and interviews people are expecting so many things but they are gonna get the rug pulled from under them lol.The reactions will be entertaining to say the least.

        Quote  Reply

    75. WorfWWorfington,

      There was a historical novel about the Crusades by the late Alfred Duggan that I read many years ago. That novel featured a character (who I think was taken from real life) who had a false metal nose, having lost his real one. The show could perhaps have got round the Tyrion loses his nose problem if they had made a fake nose for Peter Dinklage to stick over his real one (as long as the actor could breathe). It’s so long ago I can’t remember the name of the novel.

      I was releived that neither of the show Daarios sported blue beards but I did think Brown Ben Plum was a fun character. I’d have liked Mya Stone and maybe Arianne to have been included in the show but as the Rolling Stones sang when I was even younger than I am now “You can’t always get what you want”.

        Quote  Reply

    76. The use of the dragons on the Slavers’ Fleet in Meereen is visually a lot better done than Daenerys riding Drogon in The Dance of Dragons. And it acts as a warning to those who want to defy her – Daenerys has dragons and she is willing to use them.

      Razdal mo Eraz is very smug when he calls Daenerys a beggar queen, and it is as much that as anything else that seals his fate. I found it interesting that even among the slavers there is a social hierarchy. It makes them more rounded as a group of people. I also liked that we had seen those same slavers before, so there was continuity. And Grey Worm was a bad ass with that blade swipe!

      I know it was impossible, but I would’ve liked Jorah to be in the scene with the Ironborn. Partly because he would have an inherent hatred for their people, partly because he fought against Balon in the Greyjoy Rebellion, but mostly because it seemed like in a four minute scene, Yara had a better chance with Daenerys than Jorah has after years of loyal service. This children of terrible fathers scene is great – though I recommend she avoid this speech with certain Westerosi. The Sand Snakes may be her allies as of Winds of Winter, but I doubt Nymeria, Obara and Tyene would take kindly to such a speech.

      Tyrion and Theon was a reunion I hadn’t really contemplated, but enjoyed nonetheless. It really highlighted the journey Theon has been on since the first season. The last time these two met, all of the Starks were alive, Robert sat the Iron Throne and none of us really thought that highly of Jaime Lannister. This scene also highlights how far Theon has come geographically since Home. In the space of seven episodes he went from the North to Pyke and then to Meereen.

      One of the things I love about the Thrones episodes centered on battles is the way they interweave action sequences with very small, human moments. They did it in Blackwater, in Watchers on the Wall, and again in Battle of the Bastards. As well as the action sequences, we get Jon instructing Melisandre not to bring him back again, Jon and Sansa in the tent, and Tormund delivering one of my favorite lines – Happy shitting.

      I do love the scene where Jon and Sansa are alone after the war council. The cracks are starting to show, and it is becoming clear that these two really weren’t close growing up. They don’t have the shorthand Jon would have with Robb or Arya. There is a lot of mis-communication. Given her input in the war council scene in The Door, it is understandable Jon would think if Sansa had something to say then she would do so unprompted. Sansa’s statement that she won’t go back to Winterfell alive should Ramsay win is a real callback to Cersei and Sansa’s conversation in Blackwater, when Cersei says (paraphrasing here) that Stannis may take the city, but he won’t take them.

      The battle sequence itself is nothing short of both cinematic and stunning. Miguel Sapochnik rightly gets praise heaped on him for this episode, and for this sequence in particular, but Fabian Wagner as DP deserves huge amounts of recognition for his work here.

      There was no way – short of physically restraining him – anyone was going to stop Jon from riding out to meet Rickon. Jon knows miracles can happen (after all, he should be dead) so as long as Rickon is alive, Jon will do everything in his power to try and save his little brother. He will never give up on his family; regardless of what we find out in the next episode, Jon will always be a Stark in his heart and wolves are pack animals. It is heartbreaking to see Rickon getting so close and yet so dead. As is the case with Ygritte’s death, Jon is forced to watch someone he loves die right in front of him as they are shot from behind with an arrow.

      The wall of horses riding at Jon is a stunning shot, and looks like something out of an Oscar-winning film rather than a TV show and is testament to the hard work of those involved. Jon is very much aware of his own mortality at this point, but as he unsheathes Longclaw it is with the determination he will go down fighting for Winterfell as a son of Ned Stark.

      The long shot of Jon fighting numerous opponents and getting a dose of good luck for once takes us through the chaos of battle. Just as arresting is the shot of Jon’s face as we see him hack away at various opponents. War is dehumanizing. Battle is dehumanizing. And we see that through Jon, a character we have followed since day one and are invested in.

      Jon repeatedly falls into Ramsay’s traps, but the crush scene gives us a surge of hope as Jon pulls himself up. In Home, Davos and Melisandre ultimately took the decision to resurrect Jon for him; in Battle of the Bastards, Jon takes the decision to live again for himself. He could easily have given up, but does not. Wolves are pack animals, and Jon has sworn to protect his sister. The shot of him finally reaching air beautifully mirrors that of Daenerys being held aloft by freed Yunkish slaves in Mhysa.

      Also, big shout out to Tormund for the job he does on Smalljon.

      Jon ends up encircled because he underestimates Ramsay. But Ramsay, in his turn, underestimates Sansa. He has wasted his men, firing arrows into the melee because he knows he’ll hit Jon’s men as well as his own. He has kept nothing in reserve, and when the Knights of the Vale ride in Ramsay doesn’t have another hand to play.

      I love the shot of Jon reaching the top of the pile of bodies and staring at Ramsay. Battle is dehumanizing, and the look in Jon’s eyes as he searches out Ramsay is feral. Viserys Targaryen talked a lot about waking the dragon; this battle wakes Jon’s wolf. And if you’ve harmed his pack, you best get far away very quickly.

      Wun Wun’s death is incredibly moving. He has fought for Jon and quite literally barged down the door to Winterfell. Covered in arrows, he turns to see Jon reaching out to him. And this is the last straw for Jon. The way he looks at Ramsay is with such hatred you wonder if he’ll be killed and then brought back just so he can be killed again.

      There is a beast in every man. And it stirs when you put a sword in his hand – Jorah says this to Daenerys in Walk of Punishment, and it accurately reflects the look in Jon’s eyes as he inches closer to Ramsay. And then starts pummeling him to death. Even in this moment, we can see how maniacal Ramsay is. The smile on his face; the look of bliss.

      This is a fantastic episode overall (and my third favorite ever behind Winds of Winter and Hardhome). Just seeing the Stark standard returned to the walls of Winterfell gave me lots of feels. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and now they are back.

        Quote  Reply

    77. Oz of Thrones:
      Dame of Mercia,

      My apologies in advance… I must have missed it.What are you referring to here?

      Oh I was being a bit sarcastic snarkastic – the videos cited are actually GoT related but it’s somebody who occasionally comments here – or used to – who has opened threads linking to videos he’s prepared generally finding fault with the show. This is a link to one http://forum.watchersonthewall.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=79 I suppose in the interests of freedom of expression the videos (or the links) should be left up. They’re so long I doubt many people will watch ’em – unless as I said they are people who already share the video originator’s views. It’s not somebody trying to sell Nike shoes via this site or anything of that ilk.

      Enjoyed your feature as per usual, Oz.

        Quote  Reply

    78. WorfWWorfington,

      Then your parties have had the wrong caterers. At those I’ve attended, the chicken goes first (mandatory for each Hound appearance; triple portion if he’s stuffing his face). Sausages (well, hot dogs) are next to go. Sometimes there are leftover hot dogs, and we put them in…doggie bags.

        Quote  Reply

    79. WorfWWorfington:
      mau,

      * There is no functional difference between “Only Your Sister” and “Only Cat.” Nor is there one between “Edd, fetch me a block” and “Olly, get my sword.”

      Who wants art to be merely functional?

      Readers by nature believe passionately that words matter, that they distinguish great storytelling from dull reportage. If you are more into visual storytelling, such details will matter less to you. But that doesn’t mean that our disappointment when a classic line is watered down is an invalid reaction.

      I really don’t see any reason for the kind of scorn for ‘books first’ people that Mau keeps repeating, or for his gleeful schadenfreude when we aren’t happy with a decision the showrunners made. It really borders on vicious at times and I would like to see it stop. People with differing tastes can share this space without being horrible to each other, in my view.

        Quote  Reply

    80. I don’t think that there is anything horrible in saying that I think that “your sister” controversy is the most stupid thing that ever happened in this fandom.

      You can think what you want, but the level of outrage that that change caused is just infantile.

        Quote  Reply

    81. Sean C.: Threatening Rickon and the Wildlings did not ultimately bring about the downfall of his House, because Jon and Sansa did not cause said downfall.

      Are you serious? What is the point in being so contrarian?

      Of course Jon and Sansa brought about the downfall of his House, with assistance from their allies.

      Had Ramsay not mistreated Sansa >>> had she not escaped Winterfell >>> had she not reunited with Jon >>> had Ramsay not threatened to murder their brother and all the Wildlings >>> had they not subsequently rallied support >>> had Sansa not called on the support of Littlefinger and the Vale >>> had they not met in open battle >>> had the Knights of the Vale not arrived to support Sansa >>> had Jon not stormed Winterfell… Ramsay and House Bolton could still be in power.

      It’s a very clear chain of events which Ramsay’s viciousness set in motion and which he maintained with his malicious missteps.

      Sean C.: The only reason Ramsay lost was because of Littlefinger, who was already planning to take him down.

      Except you have no idea how events would have played out had Ramsay not set in motion the chain of events that led to the Battle of the Bastards.

      Yes, the Knights of the Vale are the stronger force. But the Boltons were not weakened by their battle with Stannis as Littlefinger had hoped.

      With the Karstarks onside, with the Umbers likely to still offer their support in return for assistance with the WIldlings and with other Houses potentially allying with the Boltons against the southern invaders (especially if the Boltons had still had Sansa) the Vale would have met a more formidable force than Littlefinger anticipated.

      And, as Roose Bolton pointed out when preparing for Stannis’s attack, against a larger force they could have simply remained within the walls of Winterfell and let the snow take care of their enemies.

      Since we never got to see Littlefinger’s plan play out we cannot speak to its success.

      What we do know is that Littlefinger and the Vale were able to surprise a severely weakened Bolton force (thanks to Jon and to Ramsay’s own recklessness) on the field of battle during the Battle of the Bastards, an engagement that only came about as a result of Ramsay’s mistakes.

      Ramsay could have not mistreated Sansa and instead got down to fathering an heir, giving his House a stronger claim over the North.

      Once Sansa had escaped, he could have killed Rickon on the quiet instead of provoking Jon and Sansa into open revolt with the threat.

      He could have dealt with the Wildlings differently, perhaps providing the men and the means for the Umbers to wipe them out instead of issuing an open challenge to Jon and the Wildlings to revolt against his rule.

      This is all hypothetical, of course. But the way events played out in the show there is simply no question that Ramsay’s malice and overconfidence brought about the downfall of House Bolton, as his father feared it would.

        Quote  Reply

    82. Clob,

      Don’t get me wrong: Team Dany + 3 dragons vs. Masters & their Armada was freaking awesome. Top 10 for me. Better than Jon vs Ramsay that followed.
      …. But yeah. No need to rehash debates about degrees of excellence.

        Quote  Reply

    83. mau:
      I don’t think that there is anything horrible in saying that I think that “your sister” controversy is the most stupid thing that ever happened in this fandom.

      You can think what you want, but the level of outrage that that change caused is just infantile.

      I agree. I was a book reader myself and I was never bothered if they changed the line. It seems complaining for the sake of complaining.

        Quote  Reply

    84. mau:
      Firannion,

      Well, if you define yourself as a book snob I’m the least of your problems.

      ‘Book snob’ is your epithet, not mine. I don’t consider people who favor one artform over another to be snobs. They are just people who apprehend the world differently.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I agree. It became really tiring to have the same arguments with him over and over again, how basically everything that happened in the North was because LF wanted it and that Jon and Sansa played no part in their own victory.

      There was no indication that the knights of the Vale even wanted to atack the Boltons after Sansa refused LF. And it is obvious from Sansa and LF’s scene in E10 that she doesn’t want to play by his rules any more. She is using him in the same way that he is using her.

      I think the only plot development that was acceptable for him was a rebellion against Ramsay from his own forces.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Lord Parramandas: I agree. I was a book reader myself and I was never bothered if they changed the line. It seems complaining for the sake of complaining.

      You were never bothered. Fine. That is you. Can you not comprehend that others may sincerely feel differently? Especially native speakers of English?

      People in general do not ‘complain for the sake of complaining.’ If you cannot make room in your world for them to have a different point of view without trying to negate or invalidate it, maybe you need to work on your listening skills.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Firannion,

      No, I was speaking about the people who are the reason why the first advice to every actor in the show is to avoid internet while they are working on the show. I was speaking about people who are harasing actors, directors, writers of this show, poople who are using sublte and not that sublte insults not only towards D&D and the actors but towards everyone who likes the show.

      Poeple who find nonsense like this accurate

      https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9b/91/b4/9b91b4f1a458a3d4cd025e64ec930819–winter-rose-superwholock.jpg

        Quote  Reply

    88. Firannion,

      I don’t know about you but I personally watch the show because I want to enjoy it. And in order to enjoy it, I have to be open-minded for changes from the books and not complain about every minor bit. I will never understand all this negativity because i see zero point in it.

        Quote  Reply

    89. Dear Miss Hoover, you have Lyme disease. We miss you. Kevin is biting me. Come back soon. Here’s a drawing of a spirokeet. Love Ralph

        Quote  Reply

    90. Firannion,
      Naturally, it is perfectly acceptable to be disappointed with an adaptation that fails to meet your expectations. However, most of the outrage show haters throw at the show are blown way out of proportion. They can be really nasty towards the showrunners and the people who are enjoying the show. I myself have been accused of only liking special effects and cool action scenes rather than complex characters and good storytelling simply for liking the show. That’s not to say that those who like the show are blameless. They can be pretty nasty too towards the books and those who prefer them over the show.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Firannion,

      And had Martin said “Only your sister” and the showrunners changed it to “Only Catelyn” or “Only Cat,” the argument is the same. So, the dialogue is completely functional in this case.

      Book purists lost me after all the wailing and gnashing about poor Sansa and not a word of acknowledgement about Jeyne Poole and really, just what a sick piece of writing GRRM had done with her story. At least Sansa was given some agency and ability to fight back.

      Jeyne is just a vagina and a womb for Ramsay (and his dogs) and a sidepiece for Theon’s redemption story.

      Fetch me a block/Fetch me a sword. It takes a special kind of mind to be disturbed by those differences. And I really have no interest in catering to that kind of mind, not after D&D got death threats after the Shireen story. (Not because they depicted a horrible fate for a little girl, but because they spoiled it for book readers)

        Quote  Reply

    92. Is Lord Karstark dead or has that been left ambiguous? I wonder if he’ll make an appearance in season 7 if he’s still alive somewhere. Otherwise, I’m not sure why they didn’t bother to at least make his fate known.

        Quote  Reply

    93. mau,

      That doesn’t mean he’s dead. Not that it really matters much, but since he was the leader of one of the main houses to turn against the Starks, his fate shouldn’t have been so ambiguous. That’s my view. YMMV

        Quote  Reply

    94. WorfWWorfington,

      My explanation is:

      3) Sansa is looking out for herself–not for Jon, her family, their soldiers/allies, etc. She sees Ramsey as such a villain (understandable) that she is okay with sacrificing Rickon and Jon to make sure he is no longer a threat to her. So she keeps this secret to reduce the changes of anyone on the opposition finding out. Her actions are commended for some for being smart and are rebuked by others for being ruthless or selfish. As a Stark fan, I wasn’t happy with her decision, but she is the least Stark-ish of the family, so it’s not surprising either.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      Are you serious? What is the point in being so contrarian?

      Because the narrative does not, in my view, support the assertion being made.

      Since we never got to see Littlefinger’s plan play out we cannot speak to its success.

      That’s technically true, but since every aspect we did see went off just fine, and we’re never given any reason to think the rest of his plan wasn’t solid, there’s no reason to assume it would have failed either.

      That is actually an area where the show could legitimately have added some drama and given an opening for the Northern rebellion to actually matter in the narrative, had the Vale invasion suffered unexpected setbacks and needed Jon and Sansa to retrieve the situation, instead of the reverse.

      Ramsay could have not mistreated Sansa and instead got down to fathering an heir, giving his House a stronger claim over the North.

      He was in the process of fathering an heir while also mistreating Sansa. It didn’t take. After that, the events of Season 6 cover at most a few months. And, again, Littlefinger was always going to invade. No time for any pregnancy to actually happen. And that’s assuming the kid would ever have any value, which is questionable since it turns out that the North doesn’t give a fig about the Starks, unlike what everybody was assuming prior to Sansa’s escape.

      Once Sansa had escaped, he could have killed Rickon on the quiet instead of provoking Jon and Sansa into open revolt with the threat.

      Sansa was already trying to stir open revolt. Ramsay’s missive certainly helped her out, but the revolt didn’t really matter since Ramsay would have put it down quite easily, but for Littlefinger.

      He could have dealt with the Wildlings differently, perhaps providing the men and the means for the Umbers to wipe them out instead of issuing an open challenge to Jon and the Wildlings to revolt against his rule.

      I’m not sure what difference you think that would make. Either way, the Wildlings would know that the Boltons and their allies are bearing down on them, and be pushed into the Starks’ camp.

      mau:
      There was no indication that the knights of the Vale even wanted to atack the Boltons after Sansa refused LF.

      It’s not about what the Knights of the Vale want. It’s what Littlefinger wants. And he was always going to attack the Boltons. Unless you think Littlefinger abandoned his entire scheme for Westerosi domination after 605, which is not something he would ever do. Ramsay’s brutality played no part in Littlefinger’s considerations.

      I think the only plot development that was acceptable for him was a rebellion against Ramsay from his own forces.

      No, the plot development we needed to see was Ramsay facing the powerful rebellion in the North we were repeatedly told his actions were threatening to incite. We needed to see Jon and Sansa as competent protagonists, rather than failures who accomplish little and nothing, respectively.

        Quote  Reply

    96. WorfWWorfington:
      Firannion,

      And had Martin said “Only your sister” and the showrunners changed it to “Only Catelyn” or “Only Cat,” the argument is the same. So, the dialogue is completely functional in this case….

      Fetch me a block/Fetch me a sword. It takes a special kind of mind to be disturbed by those differences. And I really have no interest in catering to that kind of mind,

      No, it isn’t the same at all. It’s about English prosody. ‘Only Cat’ and ‘Edd, bring me a block’ were perfect lines as written. The latter still puts a big grin on my face every time I recall it. There was no compelling reason whatsoever to change them. Not every line GRRM writes is deathless prose, and there were plenty of them changed for the show with nary a peep out of book fans. But those two were beloved for a reason. It may not be your reason, but you need to leave room for different people having different priorities.

      The other issues you bring up are unrelated and I don’t want to get into them, other than to remind you that most readers don’t have a problem with rape occurring in books about war because rape is, sadly, a traditional tool of war. It was sidetracking Sansa from an as-yet-unknown book arc that was mainly troubling to readers.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Sean C.,

      It’s not about what the Knights of the Vale want. It’s what Littlefinger wants. And he was always going to attack the Boltons

      He wants to put Sansa in a position of power in the North. Without her attacking the Boltons means nothing to him, so there are no indications that the army from the Vale would even attack them without Sansa’s letter.

      And he later reveals that his entire scheme for Westerosi domination relies on a picture of him and Sansa (I suppose Cat before her) on the Iron Throne, so even if there is a way for him to take and keep the North without her, he would never do that.

        Quote  Reply

    98. mau:
      He wants to put Sansa in a position of power in the North. Without her attacking the Boltons means nothing to him, so there are no indications that the army from the Vale would even attack them without Sansa’s letter.

      No, he wants to rule the North, and the rest of Westeros. He’ll be doing that one way or another, with or without Sansa (he was, after all, planning to rule Westeros before he even knew Sansa existed). None of this was ever about Sansa, it’s all about him, and her as a charming accessory; that’s why she’s the one sitting beside him while he’s on the Iron Throne.

        Quote  Reply

    99. This will most likely be the last chance I’ll have to post anything here before seeing “Dragonstone” this Sunday. So, I just want to say thank you to all the mods, everyone who wrote these incredible articles that kept us entertained throughout the long night, and to all of the fellow posters here whose insightful commentary keep me coming back.

      I hope everyone enjoys episode 61. I look forward to everyone’s comments and opinions next week. Be safe and good luck in the wars to come!

        Quote  Reply

    100. Mr Derp:
      I hope everyone enjoys episode 61.I look forward to everyone’s comments and opinions next week.Be safe and good luck in the wars to come!

      You as well.

        Quote  Reply

    101. Young Dragon,

      By defeating the Boltons? This season shows pretty clearly that the North only cares about who’s powerful, so he’d seem pretty set there; much like we’re shown that they don’t care at all about Sansa or the Starks, so likewise, she’s not a requirement, anymore than she was for the Boltons (who actually got more powerful after she left).

      Becoming ruler of Westeros necessarily means subduing the North. He would just install some loyal vassal to run things from Winterfell and head on to whatever the next phase of his plan is.

        Quote  Reply

    102. Sean C.,

      You are ignoring what he said. He wants Sansa by his side, he wants her in charge of the North. The idea that he would somehow attack and keep the North without her is not based on anything that was said or done in the show.

        Quote  Reply

    103. mau,

      He’s repeatedly said he wants to rule Westeros. The North is part of Westeros. He’s been working toward ruling Westeros the whole time. This was not something that he came up with only after meeting Sansa; she’s a personal value-add, not the prerequisite or the endgame.

        Quote  Reply

    104. Sean C.,

      The Boltons are from the North. In Jon’s conversation with Stannis, we learn northerners are more loyal to their own and will never follow a lord from the South.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Sean C.:
      Young Dragon,

      By defeating the Boltons?This season shows pretty clearly that the North only cares about who’s powerful, so he’d seem pretty set there; much like we’re shown that they don’t care at all about Sansa or the Starks, so likewise, she’s not a requirement,

      Again you are ignoring everything that was said and done in the show. The North didn’t care that the Boltons were powerful, they would never came to that meeting with Ramsay and Roose.

      Some northern houses were just tired of the war and they didn’t think that Jon and Sansa are capable enough of taking the North, they didn’t want to sacrifice members of their family in a pointless war. They already lost family members in previous war and now going into a very uncertain war to avenge them would only lead to more dead family members.

      Or they hated the wildlings.

        Quote  Reply

    106. I too have enjoyed this off season. Wasn’t sure how it would go, but the mods had plenty planned for us plus keeping us up to date with what was happening.. I’d also like to thank all posters, and all of you fellow fans commenting on here. Youve made me think, made me laugh, and in general helped make the GOT experience that much better! Now, on to Sunday!!!

        Quote  Reply

    107. Sean C.,

      He said only once that he wants to rule Westeros, not repeatedly.

      He wants to rule Westeros with Sansa by his side. That’s what he said. We can argue that before Sansa he wanted Cat in that place or that he changed his plans when he met Sansa, but that doesn’t matter. This is what he said. Sansa has a central role to play in his vision of his own future. It doesn’t matter whether he decided that 30 or 3 years ago.

      There are absolutely no indications in the show that he wants to rule the North alone, there is no indication that he cares for the North without Sansa, or that he would atack the Boltons without her. We can argue that taking the North with Sansa is part of his personal revenge against Brandon Stark and the Starks as a whole, but there is nothing that indicated that as well. So far.

        Quote  Reply

    108. mau:
      The North didn’t care that the Boltons were powerful, they would never came to that meeting with Ramsay and Roose.

      Some northern houses were just tired of the war and they didn’t think that Jon and Sansa are capable enough of taking the North, they didn’t want to sacrifice members of their family in a pointless war. They already lost family members in previous war and now going into a very uncertain war to avenge them would only lead to more dead family members.

      Yeah, that’s what I mean. They aren’t interesting in rebelling against the Boltons, who are tyrannical dictators who have violated sacred notions of guest right and flayed lords alive for not paying taxes. That would be enough to inspire a rebellion on its own, let alone headed by members of the former, beloved ruling dynasty. But we’re repeatedly told the Stark name is mud now; indeed, that’s the whole point of the Glover scene.

      They weren’t willing to rebel against the Boltons, who had given them plenty of reason to. Littlefinger, who hasn’t done anything in particular to offend them and is much more powerful than the Boltons, would have even less reason (particular since he wouldn’t be staying in Winterfell).

      Young Dragon:
      The Boltons are from the North. In Jon’s conversation with Stannis, we learn northerners are more loyal to their own and will never follow a lord from the South.

      As I said, he would install a Northerner to rule Winterfell, one assumes, since he planned on taking the Iron Throne, not becoming Lord of Winterfell.

      Also, since prior seasons talked extensively about how important the Starks were to the North and how powerful a rallying symbol they’d be, only for that to not be true at all, I’d take anything said about the North with a grain of salt.

      mau:
      He said only once that he wants to rule Westeros, not repeatedly.

      It’s been said about him more than enough, no matter how many times he said it.

      Saying he wants Sansa by his side does not mean that he’s somehow going to abandon his life’s project because she turned him down. That’s not remotely in-character for a man who cares only about himself, fundamentally, and who has been working toward this since before he knew her.

        Quote  Reply

    109. Sean C.: Yeah, that’s what I mean.They aren’t interesting in rebelling against the Boltons, who are tyrannical dictators who have violated sacred notions of guest right and flayed lords alive for not paying taxes.That would be enough to inspire a rebellion on its own,

      That would be enough to inspire a rebellion in Disneyland maybe LOL. I can give you a list of rulers and states that exists only because of the force and nothing else. Sometimes people are too weak to rebel.

      It was never said that they are not interested in rebelling against the Boltons. What they said is that they are tired and exhausted from a previous war and that they don’t believe in Sansa and Jon’s leadership abilities.

      They weren’t willing to rebel against the Boltons, who had given them plenty of reason to.

      Again, wrong. They were willing, they weren’t able. As Davos said everywhere in the word people will fight only in a war they think they can win. They would never follow two people that never lead military campaign. It is a suicide mission. And also two people who made a pact with even bigger enemy.

        Quote  Reply

    110. Sean C.,

      Which House? Only the Boltons had the manpower to really hold the North for a long period of time. Which Northern House would be loyal to a man like Littlefinger?

        Quote  Reply

    111. Young Dragon,

      Any number of them, presumably, since the season explicitly states the the North is no different than the rest of Westeros (which I agree with, incidentally) and Littlefinger prospers in Westeros.

      mau,

      That’s the reverse of what we were shown. They were able. They had the manpower, as Jon noted. They simply were not willing to.

        Quote  Reply

    112. Sean C.:
      Saying he wants Sansa by his side does not mean that he’s somehow going to abandon his life’s project because she turned him down.That’s not remotely in-character for a man who cares only about himself, fundamentally, and who has been working toward this since before he knew her.

      I never said that he would abandon his life’s project, but he would never attack the North without her. And yes, that is completely in-character for a man whose greatest weakness in Sansa Stark. Weaknes that will lead to his own death. Following her and taking the North for her already made him more vulnerable than ever. He is truly exposed for the first time in his life.

      I don’t know what’s the point of this discussion, since you can’t provide any real evidence from the show that LF would just continue his military campaign in the North without her.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Sean C.,

      It’s been said repeatedly that the Northern lords don’t care about southern leaders. It was the Targaryens they followed, they only followed Robert because of Ned, but once they were all gone, they divided and became their own kingdom. No Northern lord would ever trust or be loyal to Littlefinger. In turn, Littlefinger would never trust any of them. Once he turned his eyes to the North, Sansa was always his endgame.

        Quote  Reply

    114. Sean C.:
      That’s the reverse of what we were shown.They were able.They had the manpower, as Jon noted.They simply were not willing to.

      Karstarks and the Umbers were some of the largest houses in the North and they gave Ramsay something around 1000 men. And Karstarks weren’t even at the RW.

      What manpower did lesser houses have? And even if every house had 10 000 it’s not about that, it’s about trust in Jon and Sansa’s abilities to lead them. They don’t support the Boltons, but some of them don’t want to sacrifice their people in a very uncertain war, just like Davos said.

      And no, dead family member at the RW are not strong enough argument, since loosing another war could lead to a total destruction of their houses.

        Quote  Reply

    115. Damon Snow,

      Except he started it all by persuading Lysa Arryn to poison her husband and then warn Catelyn that the Lannisters were involved. So because of Littlefinger, a lot of our favourite characters from the North are dead!

      Hee, yes. But without that we would have no story, or a very different one

      Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      It’s hard to fault it from the production and direction POV and I have no real complaints about it but it just doesn’t engage me as much as episodes which have the element of intrigue and surprise ( TWOW for me was much more enjoyable). I do give credit to how hard they try to make these battles different in some way to any we have seen before on TV, and truly portray the sheer mindless brutality in the will to survive first and worry about victory or defeat second.

      I agree, I love the scenes of intrigue and surprise, but battles were like this. All are like this in every era tho the technology is different. We need to see this to remember whats involved and perhaps work to be sure that it doesn’t happen. But given how much violence has already been depicted in GMMR series, it stands to reason that the show would continue with it, so it didn’t surprise me or disturb me. But I very much see your point.

      mau,

      Medieval battles never look this chaotic and dirty and it really changed the way I look at real history and great battles in history.

      do you mean medieval battles as shown on tv and film? Then yes, I totally agree with this. Which is why the way this was done was such an acheivment

        Quote  Reply

    116. mau:

      And no, dead family member at the RW are not strong enough argument, since loosing another war could lead to a total destruction of their houses.

      That’s what I find refreshing about the show. In the books, every character and every House reacts towards losing a family member or loved one exactly the same way: revenge. That strikes me as unrealistic because people should respond to personal wrongdoing in different ways. That’s why I actually prefer Show Doran to his book counterpart. Rather than mindless revenge, he upheld the oath he took to keep his people from harm. That took a different sort of strength, imo. And the Northern lords are acting similarly, trying to prevent further bloodshed.

        Quote  Reply

    117. mau,

      A hatred for TV show from book purists really started in S1. 😀And by S2 it was almost impossible to discuss with any book fanatic on the internet.Especially because back then they still worshiped GRRM and believed that he cares enough for the story to finish it.Those were dark times for show watchers. Now preferring the show and bashing GRRM is almost mainstream, even in places that were safe spaces for book purists
      LOL

      Oh no the book purists are out to get us, oh save us jon snow…Please. A few thing to remember before you start bashing ‘book purists’ which is just code for ‘book readers’. These books were written in the 80s and 90s, and people who first wrote them took to them like we do the show. When the show was first talked about there was a great deal of excitement about. There were people who took ownership of the books and decided thqt the show had to show everything that was in the book. Most book readers realized that it would be differet but hoped the adaptation would equal the excellence of Martins writing. For the most part it has But even ‘show watchers’ agree that many things the show tried to adpt from the books didn’t work (Dorne, Arya and Waif’s chase, Sansas arc etc etc.) Its a discussion that is indeed ongoing and those who watch the show only need to understnd where readers are coming from and those who read before the show started need to understand the difference in the two mediums. Attacking either group is just silly and really stops all discussion. These topics can be discussed with civility, and have been for the most part the last 3 or 4 seasons. I hope we can continue to do that. There is room in fandom for all readers, all watchers, and everyone in between

        Quote  Reply

    118. ash,

      I will never understand where someone is coming from, if that person has a meltdown over “Only Cat” line, and when I say meltdown I really mean that, where you see the worst insults you would imagine.

      Hypocrisy is a very common trait with book purists.

      They will often ignore the context of the show, the context of the books, they will praise the books for the same thing they are criticizing the show (for example, they will say that they hate that the show is all about revenge, but then they will praise the books where the plot twist is that Doran is all about revenge), they will try to find hole in every plan and strategy in the show, while ignoring holes in many master plans in the books (Doran’s, Manderly’s,…), they will use quotes from the books and completely ignore the context just to criticize the show (like “Pray harder” from Stannis),… and so on.

        Quote  Reply

    119. Sean C.: That’s technically true, but since every aspect we did see went off just fine, and we’re never given any reason to think the rest of his plan wasn’t solid, there’s no reason to assume it would have failed either.

      That is actually an area where the show could legitimately have added some drama and given an opening for the Northern rebellion to actually matter in the narrative, had the Vale invasion suffered unexpected setbacks and needed Jon and Sansa to retrieve the situation, instead of the reverse.

      Except that, as I tried to explain earlier, Littlefinger’s intervention went to plan as it occurred on the show because Jon and his army did what Littlefinger had expected Stannis to do and weakened the Boltons.

      The Northern rebellion obviously mattered since it not only weakened the Boltons, it also meant that the weakened Bolton force encountered the Knights of the Vale in the field and not from behind the walls of Winterfell.

      And yet even after the battle is lost, Ramsay still points out that while he holds Winterfell the Northerners / Vale will be forced to besiege them. This situation is quickly resolved by Jon’s forces.

      So obviously Jon, Sansa and the Northern rebellion influenced the narrative. To pretend otherwise is just illogical and contrarian.

      Sean C.: Sansa was already trying to stir open revolt. Ramsay’s missive certainly helped her out, but the revolt didn’t really matter since Ramsay would have put it down quite easily, but for Littlefinger.

      Already trying to stir open revolt and yet struggling to convince even her own brother to join it. That is until Ramsay threatens their brother and the army of Wildlings that Jon has at his disposal, prompting their participation.

      And, of course, Sansa wouldn’t even be at Castle Black in the first place had Ramsay’s viciousness not driven her out of Winterfell to begin with.

      I’ve explained why the revolt mattered above. But fundamentally Littlefinger’s intervention is part of that revolt. The moment Sansa puts pen to paper and asks for the Vale’s assistance, they are allies in hers and Jon’s rebellion. And the eventual success of his intervention is influenced by the circumstances created by Jon’s forces and Ramsay’s mistakes.

      Your persistent attempts to try and distinguish Jon and Sansa’s rebellion and Littlefinger’s intervention as two separate events, rather than part of the same narrative, merely illustrates your intent to interpret events to suit your conclusions rather than as they are presented on the show.

      Sean C.: I’m not sure what difference you think that would make. Either way, the Wildlings would know that the Boltons and their allies are bearing down on them, and be pushed into the Starks’ camp.

      The difference is that, first of all, they could have set upon the Wildlings with little or no warning (like Stannis did), limiting their resistance and potentially preventing them siding with Jon / the Starks at all.

      Secondly, the blame for the massacre would reside with the Umbers rather than making Winterfell / the Boltons the target for repercussions.

      Thirdly, even if the Wildlings did appeal to Jon for assistance, under these circumstances no Northern houses would ally with Jon simply to protect the Wildlings from massacre.

      Ramsay unnecessarily risked rallying half the North and an army of Wildlings directly against him under a Stark banner; challenging Jon, Sansa and the Wildlings to openly contest him for Winterfell / the North which, with Littlefinger’s assistance, resulted in his downfall.

      Anyway, that was just a hypothetical way Ramsay could have dealt with the Wildling problem. The point is that he could have found a way to deal with it which didn’t result in them bearing down on Winterfell in support of a Stark rebellion.

        Quote  Reply

    120. Dame of Mercia,

      There have been some people who prefer the books though (and I am not saying all people who prefer the books) who have made dismissive statements about show only watchers or people who are very enthusiastic about the show.

      I get that (which why I stay away from ASOIAF) and i don’t defend them It is worth rememberig In every group there are two extreme sides that are loud enough to make others think thats the fight. But most people are somewhere in the middle. Im hoping the people in this group are. (btw this is true in any political or social issue, the media picks up on the two loudest sides and so everyone forgets that there might be a few middle gray areas. Sorry, end of rant)

        Quote  Reply

    121. WorfWWorfington,

      And I really have no interest in catering to that kind of mind, not after D&D got death threats after the Shireen story. (Not because they depicted a horrible fate for a little girl, but because they spoiled it for book readers)

      Along with the show watchers who made death threats agains the actor playing Ollie for killing Ygritte. Its not one group at fault. Its the fault of an unhinged collection of over the top fandom who have not figured out the difference betweend reality and fantasy

      Ok this is waaaay off topic for this memory lane and needs to just stop. Lets have some respect for oz and his work, and focus on this episode, can we?

        Quote  Reply

    122. Ugh, so much negativity for this episode… seriously, where is the joy in being negative? And always the same people on this site.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Teresa:
      WorfWWorfington,

      My explanation is:

      3) Sansa is looking out for herself–not for Jon, her family, theirsoldiers/allies, etc.She sees Ramsey as such a villain (understandable) that she is okay with sacrificing Rickon and Jon to make sure he is no longer a threat to her.So she keeps this secret to reduce the changes of anyone on the opposition finding out.Her actions are commended for some for being smart and are rebuked by others for being ruthless or selfish.As a Stark fan, I wasn’t happy with her decision, but she is the least Stark-ish of the family, so it’s not surprising either.

      No way, she hates Ramsey no doubt, but she also hates LF, she could well in her mind have valid reason for not telling Jon ( I think after Davos and Tormund left she should have ) but no way would she sacrifice Jon; or their alliances. I think at the parley she truly thought Rickon was already dead or be dead before the battle hence her (” you’re going to die tomorrow Lord Bolton, sleep well “) seeing it as a FU to her and Jon, may never have crossed her mind he save Rickon for the battle, and if Jon waited it would not have changed the outcome because Sansa and Jon did not control that situation, Ramsey did, along with LF.
      Her look for Jon was sadness for him and the others, because he fell for the trap.
      Another thing; if it was Sansa instead of Tormond saying Don’t ! she be called a heartless bitch though it was the correct yet hard call to make, so Jon did have a hard choice, but he failed his Kobayashi Maru like many would.

        Quote  Reply

    124. mau,

      yes, but if any reader complains or even makes a criticism , to you that person is a ‘book purist’ instead of just a reader who actually might have a point.

        Quote  Reply

    125. Oz you’re the best!
      No time to write my thoughts but I will later!!!!!

      Just want to say I absolutely love Kit/Jon in that episode and that photo above is one of my favourite moments
      ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

      Number two episode in all of the series.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Man, i couldnt believe my eyes after this episode ended. That this was a TV show. Yes i know the times have changed. But this episode surpassed some big budget movies in my eyes:

      My thoughts and favorite moments:
      -The battle in Mereen is one of my favorite sequences ever. I couldnt believe that it was not rated better on the top 101 moments. I loved how Dany listened to Tyrion’s advice, and fully became the Mother of Dragons. I so loved that moment when Drogon came to her and she had her finger pointing to where she wanted him. SOOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOD and then the other two dragons following. I was yelling like a crazy person. The visuals speak for themselves. I was NOT expecting something like this so i was completely shocked.
      – The scene with Dany and the Greyjoys was so fun to watch. I loved it and thought it was so clever.
      – Sansa was boss ass Bitch in this episode 😉 yes!
      -Its so obvious so i dont need to say it, but the direction and production, cinematography and everything of the battle was superb.
      – Jon – I absolutely loved his story in this episode. It was so important for his arc post -rezzy. I remember writing about this before when it first aired. First we see him approach Mel and question his return, and asked not brought back. Thats a sign of his struggle with the whole situation. And then at the battle, after losing Rickon, he felt defeated and you could see that in the way he was fighting after that.. almost like an overwhelming defeat. That sequence is a mirror of him trying to do good with the wildlings and then being killed (defeated) by his nights watch brothers. And then came the moment in the battle where he had the opportunity to die. Although the first time around he was brought back “against his will” , in that moment he willingly chose to live. That’s his true resurrection. And to top it off, the directing and scores in those scenes is almost incomparable. I loved it so much!!!!! Kit was absolutely incredible.
      – Jon beating the shit out of Ramsay was sooooooo “fuck yeaaah”
      – And Ramsays death was fitting. Except i didnt like that they used a pitty as the main hound biter (i love pittyssss) <3

      Such an amazing episode from start to finish.. falls at number two on my list.

        Quote  Reply

    127. mau,

      My evidence is that Littlefinger wants to be King of Westeros. The North is part of Westeros, subject to the Iron Throne. There’s no evidence that he considers the North some special separate area that he would only want in certain circumstances.

      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man:
      I’ve explained why the revolt mattered above. But fundamentally Littlefinger’s intervention is part of that revolt. The moment Sansa puts pen to paper and asks for the Vale’s assistance, they are allies in hers and Jon’s rebellion. And the eventual success of his intervention is influenced by the circumstances created by Jon’s forces and Ramsay’s mistakes.

      Your persistent attempts to try and distinguish Jon and Sansa’s rebellion and Littlefinger’s intervention as two separate events, rather than part of the same narrative, merely illustrates your intent to interpret events to suit your conclusions rather than as they are presented on the show.

      Littlefinger’s intervention is a separate event because it was going to happen either way. Sansa sending him the letter signals her abandoning any pretence of the independence she said she was capable of, and signing on to what he wanted to do already.

      605 frames Sansa’s arc for the season as a referendum on whether she can back up what she said to Littlefinger. She couldn’t, not in the slightest, and ends up crawling back to him with nothing to show for all her efforts at proving herself a capable player of the game.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Lord Parramandas,

      I was spoiled by leaks and still loved the episode 🙂

      Jon/Kit is a marvel to watch in battle, for some reason.

      Sansa may be your favorite character NOW, but something tells me our favorites might have changed as the last credits roll

        Quote  Reply

    129. Mr Derp,

      Turkey and potatoes both come from west of Westeros. 😉

      I just ordered A Feast of Ice and Fire, which I’m sure half the commenters here already have (LOL); it’s the cookbook put together by the amazing people at innatthecrossroads.com. Meanwhile, for Sunday…

      Fruit, cheese and cold meats platter
      Direwolf bread
      Green salad with apples, pine nuts, and honey-balsamic vinegar dressing
      Beef and barley stew
      Lemon cakes
      Apple cider, mead, and Dornish red

        Quote  Reply

    130. A dragon raised by wolfs,

      Lots of people keep saying that but I have to wonder did they ever stop and think this is where George is also headed with the original book story? It’s not exactly dumb if it is important to the culmination of the story in some way.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Dee Stark,

      Love your positivity, Dee and you nicely summarized the episode. I could have written my own Memory Lane reviews but I’m a bit too lazy these days so I just copy my old one from last year. But I will surely have to return into “writer mode” when the season airs (Monday in my case), maybe even making a video review for certain episodes (but those will take longer).

        Quote  Reply

    132. WorfWWorfington,

      THIS.

      And mind you, I’m actually one of the people who hates what D&D did with Dorne on the show! Having said that, the batshittery from a certain faction of book purists is unfathomable even to me.

        Quote  Reply

    133. Mr Derp,

      Besides the fact that I’m beyond lost about the meaning of this comment…

      …It’s “spirochete.” “Spirokeet” makes me think of a GMO’ed, Secret of NIMH-level hybrid between Spiro Agnew and a parakeet, and there isn’t enough Jack Daniel’s in my house to cope with that.

        Quote  Reply

    134. As with most others this too is one of my favourites. The barely noticeable nod of his head before Jon/Kit takes off Longclaw which says ‘that’s it’ gets me everytime

        Quote  Reply

    135. Sean C.,
      Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,

      I just wanted to tell you both that, even though you strongly disagree on a number of points, discussions such as the one you’re having are an enormous part of why I return to this site day after day. I truly respect your ability to keep carrying on a passionate discussion in an intelligent, respectful manner despite fundamental disagreements. Would that more people in this world behaved in such a civil manner…

        Quote  Reply

    136. Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      BFF #4, with whom I’m preparing the meal, had her gallbladder removed last year and is currently having some digestive trouble. She’s been looking at the Dornish foods and drooling, so we’re hoping for a quick recovery and peppery foods two or three Sundays from now… 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    137. Dame of Mercia:
      Lord Parramandas,

      If it’s the admin I’m thinking of that admin is “pimping” (is it alright to say that?) his videos on the forums here at WotW. If that admin reads this (as I said on another thread recently I don’t want to say things on the internet that I would be ashamed to say to someone in real life) I don’t think his videos will convert many people who don’t already share his views (and there are some who feel the same way).Maybe if he feels so strongly it will be beneficial for his health to have got it all out of his system.

      I did see the BoB video in question. I watched the first minute with some interest, the rest with a sort of horrified fascination at both the extent of repetition and the misuse of language… Please, somebody teach the narrator the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs (amongst other things).

        Quote  Reply

    138. Sean C.: Littlefinger’s intervention is a separate event because it was going to happen either way.

      Of course it’s not a separate event. Illustrated by the fact that had Littlefinger’s intervention not been part of Jon/Sansa’s rebellion then events would have played out differently.

      The moment Sansa involves Littlefinger in her attempts to recapture Winterfell, and given that the success of Littlefinger’s intervention as it played out on the show was influenced by the events already unfolding as part of hers and Jon’s rebellion, they are obviously part of the same event.

      I’m perfectly happy for you to argue the failure of Sansa’s personal arc of independence from Littlefinger and the undermining of the Northern exceptionalism mythos.

      But to pretend that Jon and Sansa’s actions did not influence the narrative and that Ramsay’s malicious missteps did not contribute to his downfall is simply not true.

      Your logic appears to be that Littlefinger was going to capture the North and defeat Ramsay no matter what, even though we have no grounds for making such an assertion (as I outlined in an earlier comment), and so nothing Jon or Sansa did was at all relevant. I’m afraid that logic is faulty.

      For example, it could be argued that Tywin and the Tyrells would have recaptured King’s Landing after the Blackwater. But does that mean Tyrion’s defence of King’s Landing didn’t affect the narrative? Of course it did.

      If it weren’t for Tyrion, Stannis likely would have captured the city; Cersei, Tommen and Tyrion would all be dead; the Lannisters would no longer hold Sansa hostage; and the events of the war would have played out differently. Tyrion’s efforts influenced the grounds on which Tywin’s intervention succeeded.

      Or the Night’s Watch defence of the Wall. Stannis would have turned up at Castle Black either way. But he could have met an unsuspecting Wildling army preparing for another assault on the Wall. Or he could’ve met a Wildling army in control of Castle Black and the Wall. Oh, and Jon would probably be dead. The events of Watchers on the Wall determined what Stannis encountered.

      Of course these events alter the narrative. We can argue all we want about what the characters’ decisions and the resulting events mean for their characters and for the future of the story.

      But to reduce Jon and Sansa’s actions, and Ramsay’s mistakes, to an irrelevance is not a fair interpretation of the events as they occurred.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Sean C.,

      We’ve also been shown that Northmen are only loyal to their own. And we’ve been shown that the Northern lords are tired of fighting. They will absolutely not follow Littlefinger, and they sure as hell won’t fight for him.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Oddly like the Broken Man article I didn’t receive an email notification to say this had been published but spotted it whilst reading another article on the site. So glad that I did as I had been waiting for it.

      Now to the topic on hand, I feel this is a great episode but it has flaws too, most notably the Meereen stuff – Greyworm killing two masters for example. Davos randomly finding the stag he gave Shireen at the pire and Rickon running in a simple straight line. I’ll look beyond that though because the battle scene and the triumph of Jon blows it out of the water and it’s probably my third favourite episode of s6 and creeps into my top ten of all time.

      I’ll give this episode a strong 8/10 overall.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *