Ahead of tomorrow’s 60 Minutes Game of Thrones special, CBS has released a part of the program in which Anderson Cooper interviews George R.R. Martin, and the A Song of Ice and Fire author is more open than ever about his feelings on the show coming to an end, especially before his books do, and just how close their two endings will be.
“I published a fifth book in 2011, when the series was just going on the air, so I was like five books ahead,” he says. “I was completely confident that I would have the entire series finished, and ‘Winds of Winter’ and ‘A Dream of Spring’ would be out before they got to them. [So] it was a blow when the series caught up. I didn’t think it would happen.”
As it’s been famously recounted many times, Martin had to tell showrunners Benioff & Weiss about “the major beats” so they could continue the story with an ending on sight. Just how detailed these “beats” were has been a topic of much discussion, yet here the author puts the rumors to rest. If there was ever a possibility he merely offered a few key moments and a vague outline for the rest, it’s now clear that wasn’t the case:
“We’re talking here about several days of story conferences taking place in my home,” Martin clarifies. “But there’s no way to get in all the detail, all the minor characters, all the secondary characters. The series has been extremely faithful, compared to 97% of all television and movie adaptations of literary properties. But it’s not completely faithful. And it can’t be. Otherwise, it would have to run another five seasons.”
Martin adds that the show being “a different version” of the books is “true of every adaptation.” In fact, when asked about whether he worries people will have the show’s ending in mind before the books, he makes it clear there’s not that much of a difference after all: “I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is gonna be that different from my ending, because of the conversations we did have,” he says, decisively putting many rumors to rest. “But on certain secondary characters there may be big differences.”
Unless for you discussion of “the ending” heavily involves the resolution of secondary characters whose path has diverged significantly (say, Bronn) or who don’t even feature in the show (say, Arianne), Martin has now confirmed the show’s “ending” will be essentially his own, at least as it relates to the main characters and the world.
Martin finishes with a calm, brutal honesty about the whole affair that I honestly find incredibly satisfying. Just listen to the man predict what’s gonna happen so perfectly:
“There will be a debate, I’m sure. I think a lot of people [will] say ‘Oh, Dan and Dave’s ending is better than the one George gave us. It’s a good thing they changed it.’ And there will be a lot of people who say, ‘No. Dan and Dave got it wrong. George’s ending is better.’ And they will all fight on the internet. And there will be debate. And that’s fine. You know, the worst thing for any work of art, be it a movie or a book, is to be ignored.”
Truer words have never been spoken!
In a more tongue-in-cheek clip, Cooper asks the cast and crew to just spill out the ending. Featuring showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, as well as cast members Kit Harington, Isaac Hempstead Wright, Maisie Williams, Lena Headey, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Peter Dinklage, Liam Cunningham, John Bradley, and Gwendoline Christie, the interview doesn’t just give us jokes but also a few serious answers too:
“It ends brilliantly,” says Peter Dinklage. “It brings everybody into it. And it questions everything [about what we thought,] which I love. It really makes you question yourself, I think. I did when I was reading it. Not in any sort of snarky way; in a beautiful way… I would love to talk to you more about it, but I can’t. It’s really good!”
“We’ve challenged people all along,” John Bradley contends. “If you would’ve asked people halfway through season one, ‘Do you want Ned Stark to die in episode nine?’, they’d have gone ‘Absolutely not, no way’… We’ve never given people what they think they want, because we know that [what] people really want [is] to be challenged, and they don’t like to be spoon-fed. All those great, visceral moments of people’s reactions to this show have come from things happening that they didn’t want to happen.”
“When we read the final six scripts, I just thought ‘Wow, they’ve done an amazing job, they actually wrapped it up. They ended this show,’ Nikolaj Coster-Waldau recalls. “And it’s an ending. We’re not gonna come back. And you do feel proud that you’re part of something like that.” And you should feel proud, Nikolaj! You all should!
I think I’m gonna have a panic attack before tomorrow’s episode, I swear.
Meanwhile, 😆😆😆:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwMo0f4hOYm/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=151qfawkl8rrf
0 days on the countdown, just hours!
We’re in the end game now.
For every Sunday, every episode, rain/shine/good days/bad days, my brother and I have plunked down to watch Game of Thrones. Lights out, drinks and snacks, and yelling at the screen.
I will miss Game of Thrones night 🙁
GRRM seemed very sad in that interview. Poor guy.
Well, if there’s still a place I enjoy participating on when he finishes his story I’m sure there will be conversations about those differences. The same or very similar ending for the mains is most important to me. However, I’m sure I’ll want to think about and discuss the differences for all of the story long characters just to be thorough. 👍
Can’t wait for tomorrow, only hours left now.
My prediction for an ending?
Nearly all fighting characters in the North die against the WW’s. Brienne, Pod, Grey Worm, Thormund, Ser Jorah, Ser Beric, Jaime.
As the fighting is going on Bran goes digging into the past to find an answer and comes back with the ritual/spell used the first time to beat the Night King.
That ritual is performed by Melisandre, who by now is in WF, and requires Jon to die to turn himself into Lightbringer, making Dany Azor-Ahai. The ritual drains Melisandre of all power she had left causing her death too. At the last minute with the newfound power Dany kills the Night King and stops the WW’s but both of her dragons also die in battle.
As they are licking their wounds and with their armies devastated, Cersei surrounds them with the GC and captures all surviving characters.
Eventually in a scene similar to the ending of season 1, but with multiple prisoners, Cersei has Dany and Gendry executed. Then Varys, and then when Jaime is about to be executed she gets close and tries to talk him into coming back or get a last kiss. At this point Jaime kills her and Arya reveals herself, but like Oberyn gloating too much, she loses focus and the Mountain kills her. The Hound who was also a prisoner breaks free during the commotion and fights and kills his brother.
With no clear ruler or successor to the throne left some sort of election takes place and Tyrion gets elected. She invites Sansa to rule with her but she gracefully declines and goes back to WF.
Seeing the throne and all the deaths caused by people wanting it, Tyrion decides to set the throne and the Great Hall on fire as a symbol of breaking the wheel that Dany wanted.
In the North Sam is basically all that’s left of the Night’s Watch and vows to start anew with some reforms (like allowing the members to be married) justifying it as a reason to help the Watch be more effective, since it was his love for Gilly that made him overcome his fears time after time.
Finally Bran once more goes curiously into the past and while there gets drowned in the memories as he was once told he could, and stays there for good.
“The worst thing for any work of Art, be it book or movie, is to be ignored.” Indeed…or as Oscar Wilde phrased it; “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”
“It ends brilliantly,” says Peter Dinklage. “It brings everybody into it. And it questions everything” [about what we thought,]
I have three question about the story which I’m hoping will be answered.
Was Dany’s baby (Rhaego) a dragon instead of a human boy? It was described as being scaly and winged “like a bat,” I believe. Does “The dragon has three heads” refer to Dany, Jon and their offspring?
What causes the seasons to be irregular?
What is the significance of the Armillary spheres at the Citadel and in the opening?
Actually these are three questions, but hey, hopefully tomorrow will commence with answers.
heh, there is NO way that a lot of the hardcore fans are going to believe this!
None of these are questions raised by characters
inthe story, which makes it seem very improbable that they will be answered in the story. We saw the same thing 12 years ago with Harry Potter: a lot of the “burning” questions that HP fans were convinced would be answered in the last book were never addressed: but, then, none of those burning questions (which were of the sort of “what were James & Lily’s jobs?”) ever came up at all.Wimsey,
Yeah, I know that they weren’t raised by characters in the show, but why would Mirri Maz Duur exaggerate so? Every time I watch that scene I become curious. Hopefully, many other unasked question will be answered as they bothered to bring them up. If such answers are not provided then the show will have been disappointing to me. But I’m just that kind of curious.
I think that we saw the ending already from Robert’s Rebellion: Jon & Daenerys (& Co.) are going to learn that they’ve been fighting based on false pretenses, and they then will have to make decisions from a host of terrible options for reasons that they cannot share with the rest of the world, and thus spend the rest of their lives living (as Ned & Co.) did only semi-happily ever-after.
What did she exaggerate?
MMD’s foretelling might get a little more attention in the books. After all, Daenerys suffers a miscarriage at the very end of the book, and some of the conditions of the prophecy (e.g., the sun setting in the east) are met already.
I do wonder if we’ll hear the rest of Maggy’s prophecy this season. People were upset that we didn’t hear the Valonquar part four years ago, but that part also was not relevant to the story being told that year. This will be the year when “little brother” strangles her (coinciding, almost certainly, with Jaime dying in the arms of the woman he loves, or at least loved at one time), so it might be worth hanging on the wall early in this season.
Ohhhhhh god. I can totally see that happening.
I shouldn’t have gotten invested. I was warned! I didn’t listen!!
Not ready, not ready!! 😰😰😰😰
Wimsey,
Martin has said that the irregular seasons will be explained in the books.
No guarantees, but to me it feels likely that this is a “major” part of the ending and by the info above should be the same in the show.
So nice to finally see Peter, and smiling!
I don’t think MMD exaggerateď, Jorah and her handmaidens were there too. The baby inside Dany’s womb made a connection with the dragon eggs and the life force of the baby swapped with the eggs. It’s magic, we won’t get a scientific explanation for that. The dragon has 3 heads are Dany and her 3 dragons.
But I do believe if Dany get’s pregnant it’s because Viserion has died. She will only give birth to a living baby when her 3 dragon children are all dead. Not sure if she or Jon will survive.
All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again…
No wait, wrong show lol
Still basically an if we don’t learn from history we’re doomed to repeat it scenario? Only in this case it’s about the Long Night and why the white walkers left the last time. The North kept saying they remembered…
I can see that being part of it.
Well, I hope so. Seriously, the weather has a huge effect on the social and political landscape of a society. Three year winters and nine year summers, how can farmers even plan for that? How can builders? Everything in Westeros would change if they had normal seasons. Also I’m dying to know why they don’t and if it has anything to do with a blue-eyed giant named Macumber.
The ending will mirror S1 E1 – Tyrion is in bed with Ross talking about how clever he is… then Jaime brought Tyrion more ladies to enjoy.
Tyrion will be the Night King. Cersei kills Sansa… Tyrion raises Sansa from the dead and says “Welcome Home my Queen”. Sandor Clegane decapitates Cersei… Tyrion raises Cersei from the dead and says “Welcome Home my Queen” the debt is paid if full. Jon Snow kills Daenerys to save his daughter from becoming a White Walker. Tyrion raises Daenerys from the Dead and says “Welcome Home my Queen.” King Tyrion will have 3 Queens.
“It ends brilliantly,” says Peter Dinklage. “It brings everybody into it. And it questions everything [about what we thought,] which I love. It really makes you question yourself, I think. I did when I was reading it. Not in any sort of snarky way; in a beautiful way… I would love to talk to you more about it, but I can’t. It’s really good!”
I really havent been following the build up to this season. Loved most of the other seasons and the build up and the hype and the community. But the last season just ended so illogically I really didnt have the energy. But now I am interested again with less than 24 hrs to go!
Pigeon,
Man, even the intro sequence got a facelift this season due to the budget increase!
Heck, there are still fans out there swearing up and down that R+L=J is a show-only thing and that N+A=J is the real truth..
It’s just so….beautiful. *sniff* 😆
The thing that never talked about in the Show but a most important thing for the story IMO is what really happened at Summerhall and the citadel conspiracy…
It’s my belief that Targaryens were brought down by maesters and all the illness and other things that happened to Targs are because of their conspiracy..
Summerhall tragedy is what that started the entire plot according to me …it’s where the prophecy was given and it’s where Targs lost their family and made Rhaegar sad..
It does have all the answers to what happened and I hope GRRM gives the answers in TWoW
I do kind of feel bad for GRRM, he really didn’t think the show would catch up, but the years went by, and he didn’t release a book, never mind 2.
Despite knowing the ending, and the major character storylines, I’m still really excited about the books, it will be different in many ways. I’m probably most interested in book Sansa, I assume that she eventually ends up in Winterfell, but I have no idea how she gets there and ditches Littlefinger.
I’m also really interested in Jaime, Brienne and Cersei, experiencing her rise to power from her POV will be amazing, her chapters in AFFC were comedy gold.
I also hope to enjoy the Dany/Jon relationship more in the books, it left me cold in the show unfortunately. There is a lot to look forward to, if he manages to finish it.
“And it’s an ending. We’re not gonna come back. And you do feel proud that you’re part of something like that.”
Uh oh. Nic alluding to they’re all going to die.
It’s a doomsday, apocalyptic warning of a series. Climate change warning. Anti-war message.
I can’t believe we’re finally here. I cannot wait to watch and learn what happens to everyone, but at the same time, gah – no more GOT! It’s such a bittersweet and nostalgic moment – am recalling the number of random places I’ve curled up to watch this show over the years, depending on where I was at the time. “Tonight” will be 2am Monday morning – I’ve taken a half-day at work so I can watch and re-watch accordingly, and I know the next five weeks will zip by as we poke the upcoming episode clip, the BTS stuff, curtain calls, and everything else under the sun. Raising a glass to it all.
And the end game is terrifying. Are you afraid?
I read that completely differently. For once, I see him at peace with the show telling his ending first. Usually he’s seemed evasive, remarking on and amplifying the differences that will exist between the two mediums (of which there will be many, I’m sure.) Basically, he used to look like he was in denial. Now he seems to have reached acceptance.
Wimsey,
When I write “exaggerate” I’m referring to the description she gives of the dead baby. She goes into great detail and seemingly knows what the baby really was. She gives the impression that she killed the child as a result of knowing or maybe not knowing its true nature. I remember the first time I watched that scene I was horrified shocked and really curious about what Mirri said of the child. Why would a human baby look like a dragon? So many questions need so many answers.
The curtain is about to rise on the finale act of the show.
“Light the candles. Fill the punch bowl. Throw confetti!” It’s today!
#GAMEDAY
#BITTERDREGS
I am encouraged that D&D are using GRRM’s ending. GRRM has had some great twists so far and from all of the various interviews, the ending seems to be just as big of a surprise as “THE DOOR”.
My daughter hasn’t watched GOT and I was telling her a bit about it. She had a good theory that Viserion the ice dragon would just eat the Night King and game over.
I would actually love that idea! If Viserion turned on him that would be something. Dragons are magic after all….
After just re-watching season 7 again, I have some additional theories now about Tyrion especially. I’m not going to write them all out. I really enjoy that I don’t really know. I’m hoping to react like Kit during the read through. I also heard Kit say that they shot his reaction during the read through for the documentary that will be shown the week after the finale…
#ITSALLHAPPENING
He sure looks weird in that, sad, nervous, almost like he Had to Said that, i was confuse If was Just me but i read the people in the YouTube video saying the same things and here too.
Well, i know when he is ready to deliver the books they Will be great, with a LOT of diferences with the show, even the main characters story.
And something off Topic, im starting to think that since they are holding even Episode Titles, i can see they not showing not even a preview for the NEXT Episode as they always did.
I was wondering about that. I’m thinking either they won’t show previews this time, or they won’t be 30 seconds. Maybe 15 seconds?
JS,
It’s a good thing we got your stamp of approval, we couldn’t watch or be hyped for the show if you didn’t give it ! ./s
Can’t wait to see their faces when watching that interview. They always compain with: George isn’t going to do that.
Or words like fanfiction.
Even when R+L=J/E was explained in the show they said George will not go that way.
Hopefully this will put a rest (for us) about their complaints, but probably not.
Wimsey,
What if Dany is pregnant and gave birth to a lizard like baby.
Dragonbringer,
Maybe season 8 will have the Maesters bring down one of our main casts as leader who knows.
RG,
The wonky seasons being the reason why Westeros and the rest of the world seems to be stuck in a medievalish kind of world for thousands of years is a pretty sound fan theory.
Think about our world 8000 (or 6000 or 4000, depending how reliable the old legends or the maesters are) years ago. It’s like the advent of agriculture and the first “higher civilizations”, and look at where we are now.
Having irregular seasons lasting years indeed makes it difficult to plan for the farmers and all other trades and the rulers. Huge numbers of smallfolk and even nobles would be wiped out during especially long and harsh winters due to famine and sickness. Economy and innovation is regularly set back and they’re kind of stuck in a loop, only progressing very slowly compared to our world.
I have a pet idea I like to toy with. After the ASoIaF/GoT story ends, the seasons return to normal (like they were before the Long Night?) in the space of 5 to 10 years, and then their world begins to progress technologically, socially, politically. Quite rapidly, which will bring great upheavals. Exploration, colonialism, industrial revolution and so on.
It’d be interesting to have a look at “modern day” Westeros and the rest of the world. The Westerlands becomes a kind of California, home of their Hollywood, surf culture on the Sunset Sea etc; popular ski resorts in the Mountains of the Moon (i.e. the Vale), the Riverlands with its abundant hydropower and navigable rivers (and later canals) offering good transport links, becomes the cradle of industry. Oldtown with the oldest university but Quiet Isle (eventually spilling out to Saltpans) challenging it as a premier seat of learning, while the schools in White Harbour and Barrowton pursue their brand of northern enlightenment… I could go on and on but you get the idea.
Visiting “modern” Westerosi when the events of GoT are just scetchy medieval history, with all the subsequent history coming in between, until we get some twenty-something Riverlander living and working in the thriving, multicultural metropolis of Kings Landing using his/her “handraven” to “croak” about his/her life on the social “weirnet”. They’re not interested in medieval history, know hardly anything about Jon Snow or Queen Daenerys or any of those dusty old figures, they’re more concerned about their daily lives, their friendships, loves and little hates, all the “croakstorms” and entertaining little bits that make up their daily lives.
That spinoff sequel would deffo be a sitcom – with a more serious, darker backstory the characters don’t understand.
Sorry for long post, just trying to pass the last 12 hours… 😀
Considering today this tread is as good a place to put this as any.
How times have changed, remember Feb. 21 2013? Gina Bellafante in the New York Times savaged the first season of GoT. The Times Arts pages did seem hostile to genre stories, except for A O Scott , who is friendly. I even noted then that Scott should do a review but he only does movies. With GoT’s success and awards the NYT Arts page almost seemed frog marched into finding friendly reviews. Finally , last few weeks, the coverage has been enthusiastic. How times change.
Boojam,
That should have been April 14 2011.
By the by Neil Genzlinger took over the reviews at season 2, which were oddly uneven but at least not hostile.
Boojam,
GoT has its problems, different in S1 or S7, or indeed any season. But even detractors have to admit it’s groundbreaking television. Nothing before it has been such a global phenomenon.
I’m not that concerned about some US critics. GoT’s huge popularity around the world (hey, car hire personnel recognise NCW, or Jaime Lannister, in Rwanda!) is testament that this show speaks to the human condition.
Popularity alone is not a mark of greatness, popularity in certain places can be acheived by clever marketing, but the fact that GoT is so popular around the world, so pirated, so anticipated, tells us that millions and millions of people around the world actually like it.
They feel it’s their own, not just another American show. They find something in it that resonates with them. Media hype can only do so much, the show has to actually be good (not perfect) for so many millions of people around the world to invest their time and emotions on it.
I think it’s because, despite all the fantasy elements, it’s basically a grand, epic story about the human condition. Everybody can identify with the various moral dilemmas, choose their favourites, defend them, think about the implications; even change their mind, their favourites, depending on the story. Most of all, it’s not a simple good guys vs. bad guys thing. It’s big and sweeping, it’s complex and sprawling, but at its core, it’s simply about “the human heart in conflict with itself”, as GRRM once put it. That’s why it has such great worldwide appeal. It’s universal.
Lol,
I just don’t get this obsession with episode titles. Do they really matter?
Someone here suggested “Untitled” for S8E1, which works on so many levels. A gentle rude hand gesture to all the whinging, entitled fans; also, who is untitled? Jon? Dany? Sansa? Arya? Bran? Jorah? Cersei? Jaime? Brienne? Tormund? Dolorous Edd? Sam? Gilly? Baby Sam? You could make a case for most of the cast; finally, naming a piece of artwork “Untitled” is an invitation for the audience to make their own interpretation. The artist(s) don’t tell you what it is, you have to look at it, really look at it, and make up your own mind. Nobody is telling you what it is, you have to examine it and come up with your own interpretation. Much harder work than somebody (artist, gallery owner, critic…) telling you what it is.
My mum is an artist and I’ve had a lot of fun over the years devising names for her artworks. We go off on a mad, poetic trip, laugh a lot. She asks me if it could be translated into English (usually not, or only with great difficulty), she’s not a language person, not even in our native language. But she’s very definite when something is “Untitled”.
Sometimes I make my own names for those, I see what I want to see. She knows I want “Seascape I” and “Seascape III” as my inheritance, or preferrably earlier if I have the wall space. Those paintings are mostly abstract, not yer traditional seascapes, but capture perfectly the atmosphere of sailing, with an idea of a sea mark (navigation mark) almost out of sight – my brother, who’s a serious sailor, has claimed no:s II, IV, V and VI of the untitled series we’re now calling the “Seascape series”.
GoT S8E1 being untitled, or actually being called “Untitled”, I love it.
Wonderful insight by so many.
However, this interview is a large load of manure. Of course HBO’s ending is gonna be vastly different than GRRM’s: we’re actually going to see D&D’s.
I think it was Pigeon. It was a very clever and amusing suggestion.
talvikorppi,
Now I love it. I think about stuff like that too. There could be a thesis on this topic and I wouldn’t be surprised.
Of course we’re not sure if they will get their weather normalized. It could be Westeros from the God’s Eye to the Wall gets added to the Land of Always Winter and the survivors have to move to the Reach or Dorne, build a new wall and adapt. That’s a little dark, but at this point, anything is possible so we can have fun speculating.
We’ll find out soon enough.
Tell that to GRRM, who appears to disagree with you, who doesn’t appear to hate the show, despite what some book purists want to think.
Or maybe GRRM was somehow coerced to say what he did. We just didn’t see the manacles and the sword hanging over his head, just out of frame. Poor GRRM, forced to toe the HBO line. Because he has no agency, the poor genius.
It’s a weird situation. GRRM is OK with the show, rabid book fans are not, so they’ll not believe even GRRM’s word. It might shatter their “theories” (= fanfic headcanons). And all can facilely be blamed on the “evil” D&D. No need to examine your own headcanon and shortcomings thereof.
Caveat: I’m not saying you, Tigger, are one of those rabid book fans. You just brought up an interesting issue, which I think is worth exploring and analysing.
talvikorppi,
My comment was made to be taken with a dose of humor.
However, I am a massive book fan having read re-read and read the last two in concert for context. Also, a rabid show fan. I have many theories; one that involves the astrolobes of the Citadel; but enough self awareness and patience to allow the author, one of amazing talent, to finish it all for me.
Hope you enjoy the show tonight.
Boojam,
Meh, haven’t changed quite THAT much:
The Friday article on the upcoming GOT last season is called “Less Blabbing, More Stabbing: How Spectacle Won ‘Game of Thrones’” :
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/12/arts/television/game-of-thrones-season-8.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
Lookwarm at best, from their chief TV critic.
RG,
GRRM has said the reason for the wonky seasons is “magic” – maybe in an effort to dodge physicists/astronomers who actually come up with real world explanations (like erratic oscillation of the planet’s axis due to major asteroid impact = the “Long Night” event c. 8000 years ago ). I think he’s also said it all will be resolved – hence my imagination running away with regular seasons returning after the “magic” ends. If magic ends. (This wouldn’t fit in with the planetary axis oscillation theory, being real world physics, it wouldn’t end so quickly..)
What I’m thinking, if it’s “magic”, when did it start? Was it always thus, or did it go wonky after the resolution of the Long Night – a kind of a magic resolution. And now we might get another magic resolution, a chance to put right what was botched back then.
RG,
Ok, when I first read that comment of GRRM I thought he was talking about the shows seasons. That makes much more sense! (d’uh)
Tigger,
Total horseshit I concur! Some weeks before he said the ending will be different (which was probably out of some context by the time it reached the article, no doubt but it still said that).
That being said who knows what he’ll do at this point. I’ve been reading what he says and listening his interviews for a very long time. Anything I can get my hands or ears on and he’s not always constant (like 100%) in what he says when it comes to his Asoiaf, probably because he’s the Gardner. Some shit may occur to him that works better and he’ll change it. So there’s that.
I no longer care at this point what he’s saying in interviews about the future content, but I am excited to know I’m going to read it someday. And it will be glorious 🤗
Exactly. Did it start after the Long Night? And what, if anything, did it have to do with the dragons in Asshai or the second cracked moon story? Is there a connection?
I love how the weather being so off balance is a constant reminder that something is off in Westeros, along with Stark words and a few other clues. It’s brilliantly done.
I also love the ancient prophecies and Age of Heroes histories that are hinted at through the series. And all the pre-Robert’s Rebellion stuff. Dunk and Egg, the Summerhall tragedy, Tourney at Harrenhal, Knight of the Laughing tree and the truth about Jon’s parents etc.
If I ever made it to Westeros I would spend all my time trying to sneak into the Citadel in Oldtown to read up on it. I’m not a fan of the stuffy Maesters, but all those books would be worth it.
…And now I’m worried about the Night King destroying the Citadel.
Great.
I think this Times review is quite even-keeled on GOT. Over the years the show has slipped from “conversation and character” to rely on spectacle.
The early criticism of GOT was about the gratuitous nudity, rape and violence. As this was moderated some critics started giving better reviews. Then the books were overtaken and spectacle, particularly the dragons, featured more. In the context of the story as the NK, AOTD and Dragons become prominent- some of the best features of GOT went away. This made GOT more popular with the action movie audience and made it a major mass cultural event (which often requires trading down on nuance).
I do not think there is the time in S8 to fully recover what GOT used to be – but at least the series is ending before it becomes a sad mess. If D&D lands a good complex ending then the whole enterprise may be worth it.
I am quite hopeful.
Solar,
no way
Tigger,
I think we are the same. 🙂 I’m glad you didn’t feel personally “attacked” when I made a general point.
I came to this world through watching S3 of the show. Pretty confusing. Who is this Ned they keep mentioning, what is this Blackwater they keep mentioning? Who are all these people, why do they kill them just when I’ve learned to love them? What is this shit, and why do I love it?
I binge-watched S1 and S2, read all 5 books, in preparation for S4. I knew ever since seeing the first couple of S3 episodes that this was my thing. Not perfect, but just soooo good. I’ve never felt like this about a TV show since Shogun, my previous benchmark. Something so well-made, something with such attention to detail, something so intriguing, so engaging.
Book/show, of course they are different. Shows take plot shortcuts but give us glorious visuals. They’re a different medium, they play on their respective strengths. It’s silly to expext one-on-one “equivalence” of two different art forms. How do you paint a Mozart symphony? The answer is, of course, you don’t.
Same with the literary medium (static words on a page that you can freely go back to and read and reread whenever you wish) and the moving image medium – images upon images, audio, moving on without your control, time being one of the major components of this medium.
It’s kind of silly to expect them to be exactly alike. A painting cannot be a musical composition. A sculpture cannot be a literary piece. They might all express the same sentiment, even story, in their own way, but they’re necessarily different. Like book and TV show/movie are.
GRRM himself said D&D have done a great job adapting his literary work to another medium. He knows what he’s talking about, he used to be a screenwriter for television.
I won’t worry about rabid book purists who’ll hate every minute of S8 premiere because it doesn’t confirm to their headcanon. I’ll enjoy it for what it is. Maybe have some quibbles afterwards – GoT isn’t perfect.
Only 8 and a bit hours to go… And before that, I’ll even have to watch the results of our parliamentary election today to come in – probably a Red Wedding level of horror and hopelessness. 🙁
This is being shown on Sky Atlantic tonight before the S8 premiere, so I will record it and watch it when I return from New York.
Surely GRRM’s comments about the ending were never in doubt but should put to rest any confusion – likely Westeros.org has gone into meltdown though.
Mango,
I’m currently spending my day looking for new articles and pieces popping up online regarding the premiere. I pulled the nudity of your comment out because I just read an article on EW about just that. So many always say there’s tons in GoT. While we know it’s tapered off quite a bit since S1, according to their research GoT has only the 7th most nude scenes for a TV show. The leader is actually Shameless with almost three times more or roughly double the scene per episode ratio. Just thought I’d share that. 😜
Someone at one of the prominent Harry Potter sites conducted a relevant test 12 years ago. There was a strong positive correlation between how much HP fans liked the films and how well they anticipated what was in Deathly Hallows. In other words, the book purists who disliked the movies because they were not costumed readings of the books did a lousy job of predicting what would happen in the last book. And, of course, one of the reasons why the Hardcore Potterheads disliked the films is that the films excluded so much stuff that they “knew” was going to be important in the last book!
We might laugh at the Harry Potter fans, but it is a lot of the same thing: sour grapes about having been so wrong about what the authors were trying to do. (Again, so much of that goes back to people reading both stories as if they were written by Tolkien when they should have been reading them as if they were written by Dickens or Faulkner!)
Mango,
Oh I got all that, don’t get me wrong but the grey lady per general was never enthusiastic in its reviews to be honest. You’d see some friendly or praising reviews somewhere in the middle (season 3-4) with excitement but the idea that they are finally enthusiastic is stretching it. And while I understood perfectly the difference in the criticism level and subject from the beginning (Ginia Bellafante) to the one at the end I’ve posted here (James Poniewozik) the fact remains the NYT for as long as I’ve read it (and it’s been over two dacades I think) hasn’t dramatically changed per general their view on TV or books when it comes to fantasy. It may have accepted the genre as a part of entertainment life now (if they didn’t they’d be left behind with the new-er gen) but the old trend of conservatism on genre lit and TV is still there. Will it ever change? Who knows.
RG,
Great comment… Except, weather =/= climate.
Weather happens ever day, climate only becomes apparent when you study weather patterns and records over a long time, like hundreds or thousands of years. An everyday expression of climate is what grows where. Lemons only grow in Dorne, the climate in the rest of Westeros is too cold for them, even if rest of Westwros sometimes gets some hot summer weather.
GRRM’s two statements do not conflict with each other. Basically, we know that there will be differences: and we’ve gotten clarification on what kind of differences they will be. Indeed, I pretty much read his prior statement as saying “a lot of details will be different, but the story and basic plot will be the same.”
The big thing to keep in mind is that GRRM started the Big 5 on paths to a particular ending (or set of related endings) 20 years ago. He cannot radically change those endings anymore, if only because to do so, he would have to go back and radically rewrite the already published books.
Of course, at this point, we do have to stop kidding ourselves: there is almost zero chance that we’ll read the last book, anyway. On the off chance that it is ever published, how many of us will care enough to even notice that it has been released?
2500 internet points!
Here is another way to put it: the climate does not change between summer & winter; how much the weather changes between summer & winter is one aspect of climate.
The climates of Westeros are all fundamentally wonky…..
Sounds like “Shameless” is quite shameless. Never even heard of it.
Wimsey,
I have no idea what you read before Wimsey or how you interpret what you read. In my limited experience you are extremely inflexible in what you think you read. It would be a miracle to ever see you admit that you are wrong on any subject you’ve ever posted on this site even if others IMO proved their point over yours. So, I’m not going to comment on that.
However I believe you are wrong about this “how many of us will care enough to even notice that it has been released?” if “us” means the public in general and not only Us Got fans.
Tolkien is still read today, long after the movies have been out and will probably be long after. And so is HP which you always reference. I won’t be alive no doubt but I’d be shocked to see HP books interest somehow fading in time while movies are still streamed. Never gonna happen.
TormundsWoman,
If they have not they may want to start, or get a few that have. The amount of fantasy and sci-fi programming has been expanding quickly in the last handful of years. With the success of GoT we’re also seeing a lot more money being thrown at them. There are something like eight or ten larger budget entries in the genre(s) in production or close right now. If NYT doesn’t care for it, well, too bad for them.
This thread is working but I’m still anxious for our first episode “Open Discussion” of the season to pop up. 😉
It could wind up being explained, and that would be cool if it (say) helps make sense of why the NK is doing what he’s doing.
However, this is not like (say) “Who is Jon’s mother?” or “Why did Dumbledore trust Severus Snape?” where the characters themselves had raised the question multiple times over, and thus there is a real need to answer the question: after all, if the answer is not important, then why emphasize it repeatedly? (Anton Chekhov!)
This is a sort of intermediate category for which I don’t think there is some convenient term. It’s not a Chekhovian Gun: it has not gotten much emphasis other than just being a “fact” of this world. However, it’s also not going to be some Deus ex Machina device: we’ve known since the beginning that seasons are wonky.
So, if we get an explanation? That’s cool, particularly if it helps make sense of something important. If we do not? Then that’s cool, too.
I see!!!! The trouble is that fantasy is really hard to do well. Like other things, much of it is rubbish.
I think NYT is open to “fantasy” done very well or to fantasy elements in an otherwise realistic context. Maybe I am using fantasy very loosely but I see magic realism as a mild type of fantasy style. Movies like Spirited Away, Pan’s Labyrinth, Being John Malkovich, Wings of Desire would have received decent NYT reviews despite the fantastical elements.
NYT is quite demanding in its reviews. I like that. They are not always correct in my view but they are reliable. I like that more than one critic often reviews the same things and they often disagree. I am OK with that.
If they do not like fantasy and we do, then we should rely on other sources for feedback on high fantasy.
Oh, right, I see. I had just assumed that it was a side effect of the magic that Mirri used to stop Drogo from dying.
pah! It’s been less than a day away for the denizens of Venus for months know…..
I didn’t care much for the interview either, or any of his recent tired interviews. His distant looks during the interview do indeed have the pathetic feel of acceptance (as Luka assessed) but he also comes across as a man who has given up. Years of promises and “working on it” diatribes have taken their toll. He has enjoyed tremendous and rare success for an author, but most likely balanced with deep internal struggles between definitive closure, ownership and vanity.
I can only hope that Patrick Rothfuss doesn’t follow this same route as his “KingKiller” series (and audience) awaits closure while an adaptation is in the works. Ugh.
That being said, I’m hoping to be quite entertained by the next six Sundays of GoT twists and turns. Cheers!
I still quietly wail in despair about the destruction of the library of Alexandria in our world.
In GoT world, the stupid, stupid catspaw set fire to the library of Winterfell as a distraction to kill Bran. Jeesh, kill the kid, just leave the the books and scrolls be!
It’s a not often remembered fact that Tyrion borrowed some books from the Winterfell library (with Lord Eddard’s approval) before going north to the Wall. Seemingly books about dragons (in the books we see him reading them) and maybe other important matters. Maybe he brought them south with him (seeing that the WF library was destroyed). Where are they now? Could there be important knowledge in them?
This is all book speculation, the show doesn’t have this intriguing tangent.
However, what we know – book knowledge again – about the great libraries of Westeros, the High Septon and Lord Hightower of Oldtown (and Citadel maesters?… though I can’t remember them being mentioned) readily bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror to spare the Citadel and the Starry Sept and their libraries.
There’s a special place in hell for anybody who willfully burns books. Let them burn in hell slowly, page by page as it were.
Clob,
TormundsLadyFriend:
And I forgot Star Trek: Next Generation! for this list that NYT has been fairly positive about on TV.
Peter Dinklage summarized it well: most fantasy is heavy on dragons and light on character; GoT is the other way around.
However, that’s just a side effect of Tolkien’s inordinate influence on the genre. Tolkien hated character development for sociopolitical reasons: and thus he did not develop his characters at all. Writers who read Tolkien and don’t read Dickens & Tolstoy and the many authors that they inspired tend to follow suit.
This also is why Martin’s repeated statements about how much Faulkner influences him are so important! (Faulkner is very hard to read these days, given how many of his stories are set in the early 20the century American south and just how brutally racist so many characters are – they make Trump look socially aware – but, then, an early 20th century southern white without racism would be like a wizard without a staff or wand!)
Hodors Bastard,
HB!!!! How the hell are you doing?!?!? Geeked?!?!
heh, I saw your icon and thought “black hole”!
Jon Snowed,
Just what I was thinking! I wonder how Elio and Linda over on Westeros.org will deal with this. There will be probably a lot of whinging going on over on that site as S8 unfolds and with a ‘meltdown’ after the final epside has been aired 🙂
I think its pretty obvious that the ending, certainly of the main protagonists in the story has to be the same. Elio and Linda are not going to be ‘Happy Bunnies’ LOL 😀
Oh, yeah, sorry: GRRM & Pat Rothfuss both died in the car crash that killed Paul McCartney in 1965.
Given that neither Elio nor Linda understand what a protagonist is…… 😔
Ah, to have a Time Machine and the Google Books staff…..
Ye gods (old and new): HERE is the biggest unfired gun on the series!!!!
http://huffp.st/OmerFN9
Lol, re the socially aware!!!
Yes, I like what Peter said about GOT. I hope whatever happens in S8 is true to the effort to focus on character.
Way off topic, but holy shit! Tiger just won the Masters! I never thought I’d see that happen again.
TormundsWoman,
You do realise, don’t you, that your rant to Wimsey about not caring about Wimsey’s opinons and ignoring them is… eh… all about Wimsey’s opinions.
Wimsey doesn’t need me to fight his corner, he’s well able himself. I just found your comment amusingly illogical.
Wimsey is not the messiah, indeed, he might be just a very naughty boy, but I like his strictly logical analyses. I don’t always agree with his amusing “paint-by-numbers” analysis of art, it smacks of something a fully rational MSc in Engineering would do. But he brings interesting insights, food for thought and some rigour to all the feelz. I like that. His views enhance this site, even if you don’t agree with everything (like I don’t).
OK, I’ll just shut up now. Only 6 and a half hours to go now!
I’m a bit too atheistic to be a messiah of any sort!
(And I’m too old to be a naughty boy….)
😀
The old gods reign!
talvikorppi,
I didn’t rant. You must confuse me with someone else because you cannot miss them. I said I had no idea what he read about Martin’s previous interview and even if I did there would be no point to comment on his interpretation of that because once he makes one he tends to be inflexible in my limited experience.
I never said I don’t care about his opinions. I wouldn’t read them if I didn’t care. I’d ignore them. I have one or two posters on the entire fandom who I literally skip comments for but he’s definitely not one of them.
I find your comment illogical myself tbh and lacking reading comprehension too when it comes to what I said in that comment but who am I to say it makes no sense in your head? Knock yourself out, White Knight for Wimsey all you can. I do for some posters myself. It’s all we can do when we perceive they’ve been slighted in some manner.
It has, indeed been expanded. GOT is my first Fantasy love. I’m told Patrick Rothfuss’ books are fine reading. In fact, I purchased, upon recommendation from a friend , “The Name of the Wind” last Fall but have not started it.
I have always been a Gothic Horror fan and I am encouraged by Anne and Christopher Rice’s upcoming Vampire Chronicles on Hulu. Personally, I think ‘The Witching Hour’ books would make a better TV series. Who knows? Hopefully the TV version will be better than that awful movie and mockery of “Interview with the Vampire” made a quarter century ago which was simply a travesty in my estimation.
It is about time someone produced a quality Gothic series and not the camp/crap that is currently pawned off on the public. This genre needs a “Dan & Dave to do it right.
Mango,
☺️ TormundsLadyFriend , that got a chuckle out of me!
I think they slowly started to accept the new landscape of TV that Clob mentioned above. With the new set of SciFi & fantasy series that’s strongly coming, we will probably get a lot more latitude on this.
May be books too. They ARE a lot more selective as you or someone else said upthread if you want to call it that when it comes to literature. And they are fair with the “speculative fiction” so there may be hope they’ll give this genre a chance.
TormundsWoman,
heh, maybe I should disappear for a few months again: I seem to be causing more rancor and discord than Littlefinger on his best days….
(“I like to play a little game when people write posts I don’t like….”)
So much optimism, Wimsey! I give Winds of Winter at least 90% chance of happening, and I’ll be thrilled to read about the storylines not even in the book. I’m not an Arianne fan like Luka, but I would love to see the Alleras/Sarella storyline more fully explored. I want to know what happens with all of the prophecies. I want to experience the direwolves and where they are going with the skinchanging story. Will that have some special relevance in dragon flight?
I didn’t laugh at any Stannis fans when I read this. Nope, nope, nope.
Hodors Bastard,
It’s been a long time! 🥂 I think you’re going to suffer the same fate for Kingkiller. 😳 it’s been getting adapted I believe and it doesn’t look like Rothfuss is too concerned about it. I wonder if I’m mistaken the series but I don’t think I am.
I felt sad when Martin got to the end of that segment. His tone does seem like he’s defeated and accepting it. But you know what Scarlett said: After all tomorrow is another day. So maybe he’s going to get inspired (He does like Gone with the Wind enough to quote it whenever it is books vs adaptation so I think it’s fitting :p)
Wimsey,
Yes, ASoIaF books and the resulting show GoT are far more Faulkner than Tolkien.
Why should Faulkner be shunned now when he was ahead of his time, exposing the underlying prejudicies, the ugly underbelly. Because he isn’t PC, or ‘nice’ enough for today’s world? So should any criticism be shunned, shut down. Books burned? Fascism, anybody?
Real, true art is never ‘nice’. The best art (any medium) is uncomfortable, telling the audience something they might not want to know about themselves. Otherwise it’s just pretty illustrations, nice jingles, Disney endings, pap for the brain.
As great a story Tolkien’s LotR is, it also perpetruates the old social order. All the hobbit (and other) heroes come from the best families – except Sam, who is a happy servant, living for the approval of his social better, happy to be patronised.
Tolkien believed in the superiority of the old English social order – himself being near the top – and transported that to his great story.
GRRM is questioning this social order so common in fantasy literature since Tolkien. Fair enough, almost all of GRRM’s protagonists are “nobles”, but we’re shown that that social order is not right and just.
Tolkien, though I love his story, was a throwback. GRRM, his characters are far more relevant, far more real, in our contemporary world. Even if they live in this pseudo-medieval fantasy world.
Wimsey,
Ha don’t even think about it! Most seem to like you here and I am very forward when I type and sometimes it seems people forget to actually read what I type just go by what they perceive as “tone” and well, shit like this happens. Trust me if I ignore someone it’s impossible to miss.
Oh, sorry: I don’t think that Faulkner should be shunned! Indeed, I would advocate the opposite: it’s well worth reading his works, particularly if you like GRRM’s stories. I was just warning that it can be tough to read because his characters often act like characters of that time (and thus use the language of the time), and that someone should go into it forewarned. It also can get tough because there are lots of examples of characters using 100 year old southern idioms that this 21st century Yankee cannot fathom.
(That said, I still read the books faster than some southerners I’ve met could complete one of those idioms: I think that they really speak Old Entish! 😎)
I sure hope not! Pat did take ages to put out his first novel, to get it published, and so I think he wants all future books to be that thoroughly edited since his prose was so well received. I can be patient if he’s making relatively consistent progress.
We’ll always have Sanderson, who publishes like a boss. And he gives us those little progress bars on all his many projects, which are so transparent and satisfying. Even so, I anticipate at least two more decades before the ten-book Stormlight Archive will be completed.
Mango,
Jesus Christ, i couldn’t sound more overdramatic and pretentious if i tried to .
This!
Don’t disappear, Wimsey! Your intellectual contributions are greatly appreciated, and your idiosyncrasies are often endearing.
TormundsWoman,
I’m sorry we got our wires crossed. English isn’t my first language so maybe I misread, misunderstood your manner and meaning. Pleading foreign language is my standard excuse for sticking my oar in where it doesn’t belong and getting it wrong 🙂
Whatever our misunderstandings or disagreements, we both share a love of GoT… Only five or so hours now, no wonder I’m getting all jittery!
Ginevra,
I’d take ten more people like him anyday rather than someone like Mango, who somehow thinks he’s above us the rest of mere mortals because he doesn’t like the fantastic aspects of a ….fantasy series, i seem to remember to remember both books and show opening with ice zombies attacking somebody but i guess we were all wrong and the series was a documentary on the middle ages at the beggining an somehow those darn showrunners ruined it in the middle with their addings of magic and unrealistic things.
Just wait until “The Catcher in the Rye” gets banned for being too honest in this increasingly superficial world.
Indeed, his prose is well cultivated and refreshing. I’m waiting for his reflections on “silence” to be smashed loudly by the end of the series. More Draccus and Chandrian, please!
Wimsey,
To be clear, I didn’t think you thought Faulkner should be shunned for non-PC language (like regularly, repeatedly using the n-word). I was clumsily trying to point out that modern sensibilities mean that great literature could be shunned, even “purged” from school libraries for non-PC language, which is stupid. Kids need to know the history, realise such shocking things were quite socially acceptable at the time. Think about why they’re not anymore.
But never change a word in classics or old popular lit. Maybe add a note that this type of language and attitude was quite OK at the time, like Agatha Christie’s racism and anti-semitism. Make us think why it was etc.
I’m sure William Shakespeare is highly un-PC – he was at his time, albeit for different reasons – but “cleaning up” his language would be like the Victorian poor Lamb who tried to keep his genius without the bawdy stuff, thus missing the point of Shakespeare’s brilliance on most occasions.
Like I said, best art isn’t always comfortable or nice. It needs to make you think, and GoT, in my opinion, does that admirably. Also, if you look past personal favourites and allow character development, not just characters somehow locked in their S1 or S2 iteration, GoT has a lot to offer.
I’m still waiting for a live action Dragonriders of Pern.
talvikorppi,
No worries. It happens to everyone plus I need to make sure I’m not coming off as an insensitive bitch when I’m typing because I’m not mincing my words.
I do try to be more mindful of the way it sounds to others because when it’s just typing you’ll not see my face or body language so you won’t see that I’m not mad or pissed to go into a rant or something (etc).
I generally agree on the need to sensitively handle art and books that reflect outdated views.
But wanted to finesse a small point – racism, antisemitism, slavery and some of these toxic behaviours were never OK to the many persons that suffered as a result.
They were maybe OK to many persons that were able to dominate public opinion and get their views seen as the status quo. I would bet that even some of these dominant groups did fully know it was wrong but simply decided to enjoy their good fortune.
Those on top of the rock do not notice it as much as those crushed under the rock. (Just read that elsewhere.)
Solar,
Wow, that’s pretty cool. Good job.
The Bastard,
There won’t be any debate about which ending is better, since the books won’t have any.
So, how was your decade in a stasis bubble? 😀
Aww, that could be one of the 5 nicest things anyone has ever told me.
Narrator: It was, in fact, the fifth nice thing anyone every had told Wimsey.
Solar,
First time I am visiting and posting on this site, but your comment/prediction was exactly like mine !!!
What do you think now? When Brann was AFK the whole “match” , while .. playing with his crows ?!
I am very disappointing in this season, especially with EP04 , which from my point of view, is the worst ever!