Tonight, as promised, HBO unveiled the long-awaited premiere date of Game of Thrones season 8- and a new teaser! The teaser dropped just ahead of the third season premiere of True Detective starring Academy Award-winner Mahershala Ali, tonight at 9PM ET. The “Crypts of Winterfell” delivers spooky hints of things to come for House Stark, and confirms that Season 8 will hit our television screens starting on April 14, 2019!
HBO confirms that the teaser was directed by David Nutter, who won an Emmy in 2015 for his work on the Game of Thrones season five finale, “Mother’s Mercy.” The eerie music heard is original work by GoT‘s Ramin Djawadi.
What a fantastic mood-setter for the year to come. And we didn’t even have to watch a block of ice melt to get it!
HODOR!!!!
ETA: YES! My first Hodor!
“No. Now it ends.”
*HEAVY BREATHING*
This is a brilliant teaser. Really well done. Terrified about what it might be foreshadowing, but really happy with it.
Very interesting that Bran is not there.
I think it’s fairly clear that this is not actual footage from an episode, just something cooked up specifically for the teaser, so I can’t wait until we get the first full trailer with actual footage.
And April 14th is sooner than I dared to hope for. Only 3 months ladies and gents.
OMG ….WINTER IS HERE ..CONFIRMED..STILL I CANNOT BELIEVE IT ..DAMN ..91 DAYS ..IM COUNTING DOWN AND I HOPE I DOSENT DIE BEFORE THAT..LOL.
I wanna say it was amazing but I noticed it was a Stark promo without one of the actual Starks BRAN STARK. that really spoiled it a little for me.
Maybe it’s foreshadowing then since Bran didn’t have a statue, he is the only Stark who survives……
Is the countdown banner at the top off by an hour? Seems like it was set to end at 7pm EST on April 14 instead of 6pm.
At first I thought that the inclusion of all three of them in the crypts was just to scare us because there’s no way they are all dying (kind of like s6 with wall of faces promo), but then I realized Bran isn’t with them and now I’m puzzled.
Jon passing Lyanna’s statue with voice over and Ned’s, Sansa passes Cat’s statue and her voice over, followed by Arya, and they meet at theirs. This was effin beautiful and scary at the same time.
Serious question, was it just a coincidence that the previous post had a picture of Arya and Sansa in the crypts?
Yeeeeesssssssss! Exactly 3 months from now.
So the person on Twitter was right about the stone teaser. They also said January 23rd for the poster, February 14th-15th for promo pics and March 10th for first trailer.
I feel like they left bran out becuase some1 would have to be pushing him in a wheelchair lol. Doesn’t seem like it would have the same tone
F*ck yes! Arya & Jon drawing their swords together.
But whose statues were in the crypts?
And do we know for certain this scene is NOT in S8?
PS As for Bran: He’s probably 90% tree by now, so he’s not walking around the crypts.
SOFREAKINGEXCITEDCANTTHINKSTRAIGHT!!!
I also noticed Bram was missing. My interpretation was that he has transcended the Stark family unit. Either way, I think it actually strengthens my opinion that he still has a big role to play.
Maybe Bran couldn’t make the trip to the crypt in his chair.
Why would it be 6pm est it should be 9pm est
APRIL 14! We have our premiere date, and just as importantly, we have our countdown clock! 🙂 I had been bracing for either the 21st or the 28th, so knowing that we’ll have our beloved show back even earlier than I expected is a real treat.
This was such an excellent teaser, I don’t even mind that we didn’t get any actual episode footage. Promo or not, seeing Jon, Sansa, and Arya all together again was a thrill. And in the Winterfell crypts as well! I hope that we see a similar scene in the final season, before the White Walkers reach Winterfell …
Mel,
Or Bran is the one watching this scene on the crypts (in a vision), and therefore he doesn’t appear.
Tamwell Sarly,
It actually seems to be set for 10 PM EST when it should be set for 9 PM.
Jack Bauer 24,
I just can’t imagine them missing out on airing an actual trailer during the Super Bowl. It’d be massive and the perfect promo for its final season. Although, the timeline you’ve posted seems a bit more realistic. But I’m sure they’d want an official trailer to be out longer than one month before the premiere. So idk…
But either way, this teaser was fantastic. I just know Nutter is going to knock it out of the park as usual. His premiere is going to be very solid. Fans of the Starks deserved this trailer after all the anguish they’ve collectively raked up.
GOT Season Premiere – April 14th
Avengers: Endgame – April 26th
GOT Series Finale – May 19th
Most amazing 5 weeks EVER!!
Shane snow,
They could have made him walk, just like in one of his visions. That would have been even cooler.
Source for this person on Twitter ?
I really hope they’re wrong about the first trailer though. March 10th is late, I’m gonna die waiting.
Jack Bauer 24,
Oops, I’m on the west coast so was automatically doing the conversion. Still, the countdown seems off by an hour (to wind down at 10pm EST instead of 9pm).
“Aegon” and his sisters.
Originally, I was just going to wait until it was posted to watch this because I’ve been on a Joe Dempsie kick this weekend. (I watched Retribution/One of Us yesterday and today, and am halfway through Deep State and didn’t want to stop watching.) However, I decided that I wanted to see it live even if it was just a quick date reveal. I’m SO glad I did because it was pretty awesome.
The Starks walking through the crypt, key lines of dialogue from their parents (well, those who had dialogue — Lyanna, Ned, Catelyn) with torches lighting the way as each step fit each character. Jon, pausing to look at Lyanna, to look behind him, stopping to look at Ned, so many questions on his face. Sansa, not stopping, not even pausing, but she did turn to look at Catelyn, a quick check for guidance, but sure of where she’s going. And, Arya, as always looking straight ahead, forging her own path. And Bran not even being there sadly makes sense as well. He made it clear last season that he’s no longer Brandon Stark; he’s the Three Eyed Raven now. This was all about the Starks.
And in the middle, the two Stark sisters meeting and then facing their brother — still their brother in all the ways that matter — and together they move forward as a pack. Finally, reaching the end and there they were facing their own demise perhaps in those stone statues. (Although, honestly, the one of Jon did not look like Kit Harrington at all… although maybe that was intentional? He looked a lot older. A clue?!) But then the fire went out and they turned their backs on those statues to face winter, face their death, face what was coming and fight it. Jon and Arya, with swords drawn, stepping forward, automatically stepping forward, ahead of Sansa to protect their own.
Ooh! I got chills. This was so awesome!!! I’m so very glad I watched it live!
Jared,
Right! Wasn’t it beautiful? I have no clue what it signifies – if anything – but the photography was gorgeous.
April 14th
Theory confirmed – Dany’s ship will hit an iceberg and sink – there aren’t enough lifeboats for the Dothraki – Jon and Dany stay back to help but after the ship goes under they’re left with a door – the same door Hodor held – but Dany is all like I’m Daenerys Targaryen The mother of dragons titles title titles – by the time she finishes reciting them Jon has already pushed them to shore – opening credits
They don’t need a SB trailer GoT is a phenomenon. It was good for Westworld because they could use the rub but GoT doesn’t. It would be cool though!
Goosebumps all over! Feels like ice in my veins! That was *awesome*!
Interesting quote selection for Cait, don’t you think?
That was a pretty great teaser, loved the crypts and an apparent 80 year old Jon statue. 😆 Interesting that they chose Cat’s little speech about her guilt. And of course, Arya and Jon drawing their swords, and Sansa drawing a blank.
Nick20,
DST – spring forward 1 hour in march
No bran, no dany and not a single lannister. I wonder why. The past teaser trailers all had multiple characters in it from more than one family.
Or maybe it signifies the characters that will have a change next season that has something to do with the past.
Or maybe bran is in the teaser. If the theory is true about him being the night king.
Hibberd said no skipping weeks
https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1084638620269584384
@JamesHibberd: My understanding is #GameOfThrones isn’t going to skip weeks, we’ll get them all straight through 🙂 April 14 is the latest start date that still allows them to still finish before Memorial Day weekend (which they’ve sometimes skipped in the past) https://t.co/XOLkWEcDU7
Jack Bauer 24,
True but I’m sure they’ll want to hook potential viewers in any way possible. But we’ll see my friend.
It’s a great time to be a damn THRONES fan.
So…What’s the deal with the three statues Jon, Sansa and Arya approach towards the end? Two of them look like Sansa and Arya – but the third one looks like a stranger photobombed the scene. It sure didn’t look like Jon.
Obviously this is not actual footage from the season 8. But, I am curious about the symbolism here. Also, note that Jon’s statue is not in the middle — I mean, he is/was the King in the North after all.
It was old Jon.
And the fandom goes craaaaazy! Beating My head on the wall over here FINALLY YES HODOR!!
trarecar,
Sansa’s gonna have a hard time accepting Jon after they find out the truth I just know it!
WOW that was soooooo good and intense
Do you think that there will be breaks on holiday weekends?
Well, I guess he’s gonna develop a taste for lemon cakes and ice cream. Old Jon looked rather portly. So much for the six-pack abs.
Maybe. But also now Sansa is the uncontested Lady of Winterfell. She might like that.
https://twitter.com/Arielcassiano1/status/1083486108942516224
@Arielcassiano1: @GameOfThrones TOMORROW! https://t.co/Ry1vb5BHrQ
Q: David Nutter directed this teaser AND is directing Episode 1?
Maybe Jon goes through physical change, or he’s a lot older then the sisters . : (
Hibberd said as far as he knows there will not be any breaks.
GOT doesn’t need the Super Bowl, to be honest. It barely needs a trailer. The final season is the television event of the decade, people will watch it with or without much promotion.
So HBO doesn’t have any drama in between True Detective and GoT? Looks like BLL will be after GoT and Watchmen might be later this year.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
My thoughts exactly. I was thinking of Visenya, Rhaenys, and Aegon when they meet and looked at the three statues.
Minus the marriage part. Lol. I won’t have any part of getting that conversation started…..
Also, IMO none of the statues look exactly like who they are meant to portray, I wouldn’t count on Jon’s being anything different.
That was a teaser worth waiting for, just to see Jon, Sansa and Arya together again was awesome! Can’t wait until April!
I’m guessing that they filmed that promo bit that was released a few weeks ago when they made this.
I doubt Nutter directed this. They usually hire other people to handle their teasers.
Rúnar Ingi directed the Hall of Faces teaser for S6 and Tomas Jonsgarden directed the Long Walk teaser for S7.
Here’s the link Dee https://ew.com/tv/2019/01/13/game-of-thrones-season-8-date/
Every time you say Hibberd, I automatically think of Dr. Hibbert on The Simpsons. And he’s not omniscient, he doesn’t know everything.
Davos’ Luck,
The Super Bowl is having a tough enough time attracting musical guests for the halftime show.
Besides… the Super Bowl should air its trailer after a GoT teaser. GoT is way more popular at this point.
Dee Stark,
Maybe a break for Memorial Day here on the us, if it’s going that long. But they usually don’t break for Easter or Mother’s Day. If I remember correctly- someone here, correct me if I’m wrong.
I fully agree with this, except that HBO has been a little weak on content lately IMHO. I suspect they’ll milk this for all they can.
Wasn’t that Season 8 footage of Dany/Jon/Sansa? That would have been filmed last year.
YIPPEE!!! Welp, that was my second choice of date, obviously. ;D Big heart ’round the number on the calendar now. (Hoping for no breaks!) And boy, I was NOT expecting such a long teaser with it!!
Poor Bran–er, I mean, 3-Eyed Raven…could’ve had him wheeling in, but it worked well with the three who’re still their Starky selves. Love, love, love my Arya & Jon (git yerself a weapon, Sansa. ;p)
Of course they don’t *need* the SuperBowl, and I’d rather see a trailer during the Westminster dog show, but still the game sounds like a natural choice…
rizwan,
The order of the statues is matched to the placing of the actors, which in turn is almost certainly because they wanted the final pose of the ones with drawn swords balanced on each side (and also it puts the tallest person in the middle).
Jack Bauer 24,
No that is not what I was referring to. It was the actors promoting HBO.
According to the post (I just re-read it):
“HBO confirms that the teaser was directed by David Nutter, who won an Emmy in 2015 for his work on the Game of Thrones season five finale, “Mother’s Mercy.” The eerie music heard is original work by GoT‘s Ramin Djawadi.”
rizwan,
Honestly think that was probably just an aesthetic choice since Sophie is so much taller than Kit and Maisie and it’d look better with Jon and Arya standing either side of Sansa with their swords drawn.
Moments earlier they framed Sansa and Arya either side of Jon looking at him as he strides up between them. I think that shot is probably more symbolic of their relationships/status.
They don’t need to break for Memorial Day. MD is May 27th this year. Since the premiere is April 14th that puts the finale May 19th.
I’ve been thinking about the feather. It first blows in when Jon walks by Lyanna’s statue (he pauses and looks back), then is the first thing to freeze. Maybe symbolic of Bram/The Three Eyed Raven?
Ice Dragon?
Ten Bears,
Um, no it’s not. The super bowl pulls in over 100 million viewers. Though I don’t disagree, the trailer should air before the game.
Shelle,
Well, there was a feather (raven’s?) blowing off Lyanna’s statue, and then a closeup of it on the ground. Other than having an actual mood-ruining bird flying through the crypts, maybe that was a subtle nod to Bran.
Nicole Kidman has already confirmed that BLL is coming in the summer.
Davos’ Luck,
Of course they don’t NEED the Super Bowl, but considering this is the show’s swan song I would imagine they’re going to go all out with the promo. We’ll just have to see. It’s always been difficult to predict trailer dates for this darn show.
Why is there a direwolf next to Lyanna? I don’t remember if that’s there in earlier episodes.
Ten Bears,
Thanks, I just reread it, and saw it on EW’s article as well. You’re right.
Pretty sure that was the feather Robert B. placed on Lyana’s statue all the back in episode 1.1. I don’t think it has anything to do with the 3ER.
Very good trailer/teaser. All atmosphere. No a glimmer of the story.
Late last year, someone had posted here on this board that they had a drink with a friend from HBO who told them the premier would be on the April 14th. We shoulda believed them. Now confirmed.
The same artist that made Ned’s statute was hired to make Jon’s – the impressionistic approach.
Ten Bears,
Yes, this. Nice, ominous, nod to Bran, and he Targ reveal (to Jon)
This makes me wonder if they’re going to plan to have a separate teaser for Cersei and or Dany. The fact that this teaser exclusively showcases the Starks is very interesting for a multitude of reasons.
Maybe they plan on overhauling the promo with other cool teasers before the official trailer. It’s a cool thought. But perhaps too optimistic. I’m just under the impression that literally anything will go since this is HBO’s prized jewel.
I’m itching for some actual footage, but I’m very satisfied with this for the time being.
Tamwell Sarly,
Oh shit! Forgot about this. The plot thickens!
That’s right, I forgot. Later Sansa picked it up when she was there with LF. And yes, there was a direwolf next to her https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfnl9owFc84
YESS!! So excited!
I think Bran’s not there because he’s not Bran Stark anymore. He’s the Three Eyed Raven, and it will be up to these three to continue whatever line of the Starks that can continue. Arya also didn’t have any voiceover to walk past, Jon had two and Sansa had one.
Tamwell Sarly,
You are right. It was the feather Ned placed there in S1. But where did it come from, and why focus on it? Unless some cold gust of wind preceding the threat blew the feather to the ground. (I thought the white mist meant the WW were paying a visit.)
Who knows? But just seeing Arya drawing Needle, standing side-by-side with Jon, made me a happy camper.
Looks that way. Apparently they didn’t have any drama series ready or didn’t want to stuff one in that short period. I haven’t been following their non-drama scheduling. They have that stuff and some movies they can work in there. Maybe the Deadwood movie for one. I thought Demimonde would have been good to follow GoT, but if BLL is then it must not be ready.
Ten Bears,
Did we not see the feather a second time when Sansa and Arya met up in the crypt? Yes, Robert placed it in Season 1. This is its third twirl in the spotlight.
Is the Deadwood movie almost ready for primetime? I thought that was still a little ways off. I saw Silicon Valley won’t even film until the Summer, so for other non drama offerings they have Veep but all they’re saying is “Spring” for its final season. Maybe Euphoria?
Edit: Barry is a hit as well I’m not sure of its production status though.
Just like everyone here, I’m SOOO excited!! Seeing the kids together in the crypts gave me chills. Circling the whole show back around to Robert’s feather. So awesome! I can’t wait!
Edit: Available on Comcast On Demand already!
Well *I* know what I’ll be doing with a couple hours of my sick days tomorrow when I get to work.
All I know is that articles have been saying they’re aiming for Spring also. It’s in post-production so one would think they’d have it ready by March at least.
Well that was pointless.
Apart from the missing Bran, should we mention how they didn’t show Robb’s statue? Or even Rickon’s? Also only Jon and Sansa got voiceovers, Jon’s are about his parentage while Sansa’s is about not being able to love Jon.
Shelle,
“…Love, love, love my Arya & Jon (git yerself a weapon, Sansa. ;p).”
———
• Sansa doesn’t need a weapon. “No One can protect me.” 😀
• I may be ascribing significance where none was intended; still, I liked it that when the three turned around to face the unseen threat, Jon treated Arya as a fellow warrior and not as a defenseless girl.
Who’s statue was at the very end the one sitting down?
More accurately Cat not able to love Jon.
Sansa only gave her mother’s statue a quicky look.
Also some time has to pass after the war for WF to be rebuilt, statues of Cat and the 3 older Starks.
This could be Bran showing us except for him, everyone eventually died; not necessarily the Starks died during the battle of the un-dead.
Also no Robb statue.
It was a nice promo and good to see all of them in one place .
Everyone is talking about Bran missing out..
Iam actually sad that they left Robb and Greywind out of the teaser..
On the happier note, Iam now expecting a similar promo cuts for dany and for lannisters
Grail King,
Yes, but why that quote from Cat instead of some loving one? That says to me that Sansa won’t be able to accept Jon as a part of her family anymore.
Hopefully not because then they’ll milk these for as long as they can without a real trailer. I did like this one, but we don’t need more. We need a trailer next.
It’s pretty obvious that the immediate focus will be Winterfell, as that’s where the dead were headed when we last saw them. And why not focus on the crypts, specifically? There’s a whole bunch of dead people down there, and I’m still not certain whether the NK can’t animate skeletal remains.
Interesting too that while the visual is Jon and his sisters, the voices are all talking about Jon…who isn’t a Stark. I don’t see how Ned, Cat and Lyanna correspond to Jon, Sansa and Arya.
It makes sense that the NK battle will conclude mid-season to leave time for the aftermath of whatever secret, or secrets, have been revealed. I don’t think the secret is that Jon is Rhaegar’s son because that’s already been revealed to us. Maybe the big reveal will be how people will react to the news. Or maybe there’s something else. Whatever it is, they can’t reveal it in the last scene of the series and leave us hanging with questions, can they?
Wouldn’t it be funny if Rhaegar is the NK.
Grail King,
Right… So Catelyn got a statue, but no Robb, no Rickon, and no Benjen – as far as we could see. But I don’t think there’s any significance to be attributed to whose statues are there. The characters shown in the “Hall of Faces” teaser didn’t thereafter die or get their faces peeled off.
Maybe Bran is stuck in a time loop somewhere bouncing between his mind and that of the NK, flying an ice dragon perhaps?
Just sayin…
Cat has a statue.
Who was Lyanna’s direwolf?
Yet they fight a united front?
Maybe it means the polar opposite, maybe Jon is broken and Sansa promises to raise Jon’s child ?
Keeping Jon as a Targ secret.
Did this air on HBO, or did they just release it on YouTube and social media? The promo with the Jon/Dany/Sansa footage aired for me before TD.
Wasn’t it Kings and Lords had wolves with their statues?
Ned knowing the truth he put the wolf next to Lyanna as befitting her rank.
Did Sansa ever put the feather back on the statue on screen during that scene with LF in Season 5?
stef666,
Nonsense! It’s because right there in the crypts you have the crux of Jon’s coming identity crisis: Lyanna (his biological mother who, in a fit of teenage horniness, eloped with a married man), Cat (the unwilling maternal figure who couldn’t love him because he was the living breathing proof that the honorable Ned Stark fucked another woman… paraphrasing Jamie) and Ned (the putative father who lied to everyone in order to protect him from Robert’s wrath but let Cat mistreat Jon during his whole life).
It’s all about Jon and it has nothing to do with Sansa or Arya. In fact, Sansa doesn’t stop for a second at her mother’s statue (unlike Jon, who stops at Lyanna’s and Ned’s).
In any case, the “pack” show a united front against the lurking enemy.
Jack Bauer 24,
Was it with LF or was it with Arya? Yes, Sansa picked up the feather and replaced it in Lyanna’s hands.
Jack Bauer 24,
It did. Right before TD premiere. That’s how I saw it, not on any media.
Now on to something important from the footage we’ve gotten so far Dany and Jorah get new outfits while Jon, Sansa and Arya have the same outfits as S7 lol hopefully they’ll get upgrades halfway through the season
Earlier I always thought that the reason GRRM scattered the Starks into the wind was to save them from the initial White Walker invasion. My theory was that the Night King would surround Winterfell and then raise up an army of undead Starks from the crypts to just take it from the inside. Ramsay would get killed by a Stark, just not any of the living ones.
Well that’s all gone out the window, at least for the show. But here it is in the teaser. It’s a pretty serious defensive problem to have the crypt inside the walls of Winterfell when your enemy can raise the dead. Hiding in the crypt saved Bran and Rickon earlier. Maybe the crypt is going to reclaim a Stark that it once saved.
A Dornish Tyrell,
Yeah pretty sure your right, all the voiceovers were about Jon’s true identity
Mango,
Jack Bauer 24,
No, she was wearing it on her wrist the following episode, when Myranda was complimenting her dress.
She couldn’t put it back on Lyanna’s statue because she’d placed a candle in Lyanna’s hand, where the feather had once been.
Who is the statue sitting at the end?
old Bran?
a King?
I also immediately started wondering whether the feather was just a cool excuse to illustrate a cold wind heralding the arrival of the AotD at Winterfell, or if it had some greater symbolism. It’s definitely not a raven feather; it’s mottled brown. Might have come from Bobby B’s falcon, though the one that inspired such competitiveness in young Stannis would undoubtedly have been dead long before the royal visit to Winterfell. (I can’t remember if Stannis’ Proudwing story is books-only or made it into the TV show.)
I’m trying to puzzle out what value there might be in inserting a reminder of Robert Baratheon into this little interlude. Yes, he’s the reason why Jon’s true identity had to be kept secret, even from Catelyn. But he’s kind of old news by now. Unless we’re going to have a scene in which Varys tries to placate a pissed-off Dany with a reminder that Ned Stark resigned his Handship in protest of Robert’s campaign to have her assassinated, arguing that she was still a child. Of course, now we know that he had another vulnerable Targ child in mind as well!
Anyone else finding it difficult to accept that Bobby B’s feather never got blown off Lyanna’s statue previously, in all the years since he put it there? Was this really the first time the crypts experienced any sort of air movement?
I still think it has to do with the Baratheon bloodline/House coming back into play, a.k.a. Gendry. There is a reason he was brought back (and not just fanservice/Arya’s love interest). There is a reason that D&D kept him out of all of Robert’s bastards and decided to merge Edric’s story with his… because Gendry was the most important of Robert’s bastards. There is a reason that the Baratheon sigil was a part of the Game of Thrones title card all along and has remained thus. The Baratheon House/line is not dead. And Gendry is why. That feather was just another reminder of Robert/the Baratheon place in this story — the Arya/Gendry — Robert/Lyanna parallel.
that’s true, I did forget DST, but that makes the counter even more wrong. DST in March will have us moving forward one hour. At 2:00 AM it becomes 3:00 AM. So an hour is “lost”, and as a result there is one less hour between now and the premiere.
Therefore the counter was off by 2 hours, not just one.
I just rewatched the scene and Sansa picks the feather up and LF tells her the Harrenhal story but she never puts it back.
It did. Did you turn away because for me it aired about a minute or so after that other preview.
The significance of those three statutes seems to me to be the characters similarities.
Jon has Ned’s integrity and courage.
Arya has Lyanna’s wild, rebellious spirit.
Sansa has some of her mother’s vindictive and possessive spirit.
What was Jon hearing? His mother wanting him protected (because his role is critical)
What was Arya hearing? About being too harsh and not being able to love
What was Sansa hearing? Helpless, she worries she brought horrors her family
Then, Jon finally knowing what Ned meant by ‘you have my blood’.
The feather is a continuum of their connection to the dead.
Then they have to face the ‘walking’ dead, though of course it’ll be with armies at their sides.
Gotcha. Was it there during the Sansa/Arya crypt scene?
I could not hear Cat’s voiceover very well. It sounded to me like a snippet from when she was talking to Talisa, and berating herself because she “couldn’t love a motherless child” – breaking a promise she had made to the gods.
That to me was a confession of guilt and shame: all the more reason why Sansa would be able to accept Jon. Her mother viewed Jon as a reminder of her husband’s infidelity with some nameless slut, and still felt bad about treating Jon like sh*t. When the truth comes out that Jon was Aunt Lyanna’s (legitimate) son and not Ned’s bastard, wouldn’t Sansa be more likely to accept Jon unconditionally?
P.S. Excuse the tinfoil interruption: I still think it’d be a neat twist if during the boat ride to White Harbor, Queen Daenerys decides to legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark (like Stannis offered in S5 if Jon pledged himself to Stannis). Wouldn’t that add another layer of weirdness to the Jon = Aegon Targaryen reveal?
Jack Bauer 24,
I don’t think so. If it still exists in the show itself, then it’s probably in a jewellery box in Sansa’s chambers. 🙂
Or, heaven forbid, both girls die young and Jon lives to a ripe old age before he’s put into whatever is left of the crypts? Drat drat drat if that happens.
But so glad the date is earlier and not later.
About that quote from Cate about being unable to love a motherless child (Jon) – If I remember correctly, she said that to Talisa, so there is no one alive who would know she said any such thing. The only way it could be known is if Bran saw it in a vision and reported it. Or maybe it doesn’t mean anything at all .
Hmm. Seems like they were wrong. The teaser dropped on the 13th, not the 11th, and has nothing to do with “Etched in Stone”.
I’m watching through the Prime Video app where I have my HBO NOW app linked and it only showed that one promo and then went straight into the TD premiere.
Each are learning something from their statute whisperers. That is, Jon his true parentage, Arya that she must soften and love again, Sansa that she needs to question her harsh actions.
I took it as summarizing the tragedy of this secret (and how well this secret was kept) and the irony that this same secret was the very thing that protected Jon for so long. Jon had a good father, brothers, sisters, an uncle, he had a home with people who cared for him, but the trade-off is the suffering this secret caused, the secret that saved Jon’s life. I don’t think it’ll affect how Sansa feels about Jon – at the end of the day, he’s still her brother, her family, and one of the precious few family members any of them (Arya, Sansa, Jon, Bran) have left. Sansa’s had to forge on ahead with her own views for a while now – if she can accept Jon as her bastard brother, I’m certain she can accept Jon as her Aunt Lyanna’s son raised by her father who is the hidden child of a fallen prince and heir to the Targaryen dynasty 😉
The person said the promo was going to be on the 11th, which was wrong, but on the 11th HBO announced the premiere date was being revealed tonight. That’s pretty close. And the stone statues have a heavy presence in the promo. Could be coincidence, but that is pretty big coincidence.
Olli,
“Each are learning something from their statute whisperers. That is, Jon his true parentage, Arya that she must soften and love again, Sansa that she needs to question her harsh actions.”
——
I’m so sorry for asking this, because I could not hear the audio very well: Who was Arya’s “statue whisperer”, and what did he or she say?
Bran missing doesn’t worry me. If the statues indicate that eventually all three of them will be buried there, it makes sense that Bran isn’t with them. They will die – at some point, in the show or much later – but Bran will be a tree, at least until the next long night and the next three-eyed raven.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Aha!
I know we had seen Sansa with the feather in the dark. No memory of her wrist though – been a long time.
Thank you.
I wonder what they’re going to do with the opening intro now with the limited locations. What we have WF, KL, and The Wall?
Olli,
Wow, that is a lot! You might be right on the concept behind the teaser. Interesting….
I just watched the part with the three statues again, switching it off and on so I could examine the stills, and noticed that the Jon statue has one open eye and one just a closed slit. I wonder if that could be foreshadowing that he will survive, but lose an eye in combat? Like Frodo having to give up a finger to save the world?
I’m wondering the same thing.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, that was awesome!
And lol, good point–she didn’t even know how right she was at the time. ;p
GRRM, still trying to finish TWOW.
Finaleamente O Dio!
Jon looks like he dies an old man!!!!
I got so excited I made my dog worried haha! That teaser was awesooooome! Get hyped!! 😀
One of the renovations for the crypt after the long night ends will have to be to make it wheel chair accessible for Bran. But it would have been cool if he warged into Ghost! and Ghost would have walked through the crypt showing Bran’s POV behind Ghost’s eyes.
This looked like extra promo footage to me (not actually from season 8). I thought it was actually in the same vane as the “Long Walk” promo from season 7, since it was another long walk. This one was much cooler though. I really enjoyed it.
It’s not the same feather; Miranda ask to check the stitching, we see a feather on Sansa’s right hand glove, we cut to the kennel Sansa sees Theon, Sansa’s LEFT hand glove is on the wall with another feather stitched to it.
I think when LF left Sansa continued putting candles to her ancestors, and returned the feather to Lyanna’s hand.
WRG to a feather there’s tons of room in her hand for the candle and feather.
I just checked the wiki and Dave Hill is listed for the writer for the Season 8 premiere. I went back and checked and David and Dan are credited for writing all premieres from S1-S7. Cogman is listed for episode and 2 and David and Dan 3-6 including directing the finale themselves.
At first I thought it’s just the color of the statue that makes him look old, makes his hair and beard look white. But now, I’m not so sure. Also, in slow motion it appears the statue blinks as Aegon passes the torch in front of it (probably just the lighting though).
Jack Bauer 24,
Hey Jack,
This was previously reported on. We knew the writing team and order for season 8, before season 7.
Ten Bears,
That reminds me at the scene when Sansa and Arya meet back in Winterfell in the crypts at Neds statue and Arya says something like “doesn’t look like him” and Sansa replies “because everyone who knew him is already dead”.
💀💓💀💓💀💓 April 14💀💓💀💓💀💓💀💓 about much as I can add!
Oh and solid, solid beginning “True Detective” Season 3… Mahersala Ali, Stephen Dorff, Carmen Ejogo and Scoot McNairy 👍👍
I took it as Sansa rejecting her mother’s bias;she was walking with purpose didn’t even stop just gave her mother’s statue a cursory look and continued on.
On top of this Sansa’s hair style tells me she’s on team D & J.
Jon and Arya in the same frame…
I’m ready!
LOL! It’s gratifying that Arya’s image holds Needle rather than Catspaw. Needle was born in Winterfell and has been her companion during her diaspora from her home.
I sent the video to a mate who sculpts as a hobby, in clay and terracotta. His comment is that none of the Starklings’ statues are great likenesses. Jon’s at an age which is hard to capture, and the beard makes him look older. I think it looks more like a Renaissance king than Jon.
Stephen Dorff
Be still my teenage crush heart!!!!!!
This was honestly more than I expected to get with the date announcement, but I’m not complaining! Awesome tease!
Remember he is not bran stark anymore. He remembers what it’s like to be bran stark but I is the eyed raven now.
Jack Bauer 24,
“Should have been carved by someone who knew his face.”
“Everyone who knew his face is dead.”
I have just seen the teaser and it is brilliant. So emotional and haunting!
Oh, David Nutter, you tease!
HBO and D&D surely love to torment us. This teaser trailer is sooooo full of symbolism, we will be well occupied for the next three months… 😉
I start!
The falling feather Robert placed in the hand of Lyanna’s statue symbolizes the lies everyone told and believed about her abduction by Rhaegar. Those lies are now “flying” out of the window. So, yes, Jon’s parentage will be revealed. Though I don’t think we will get to know who lied when and why, for that we will have to wait for the books. That it was Sansa, who found this feather and replaced it with a candle later, shed some light so to speak, might have been some kind of foreshadowing as well. Although I won’t go down that rabbithole now…
I am or better was a bit confused about the Catelyn bit in there. I always thought her self-accusation, that everything is her fault and her acknowledgement, that she treated Jon badly, was a nice gesture, but also a bit exaggerated. It was a lot to ask of her to take the bastard of her husband in and sure as hell it didn’t helped that Ned and Jon were already in Winterfell, well settled in, when she arrived with Robb. That’s not how you handle these things. On the other hand: If she would have treated Jon better, he might not have wanted to go to the Wall, he would have never seen the threat, he would have gone with Robb and be murdered at the Red Wedding. You can play “What if” on this for ages!
Fortunately Olli had a good idea. I love his interpretation. Makes total sense to me.
I might add: And with Daenerys by their sides. Did anyone else notice Sansa’s hairstyle? This is not a throwback to her southern style, this is a nod to Dany. And I love it! 😉
Ned’s words are as clear as they ever were: Jon might not be his son, but he is family nonetheless. So, glad that’s clear now: Jon is a Stark, whoever his biological father was. This is emphasized by Sansa and Arya joining him. And it could be a hint how these two react to the revelation of his real parents: They don’t give a sh**. He is their brother.
The three statues of them are eerie. It must have something to do with the eyes. But it’s also a hint towards their attitude, their identities now. Something that was questioned over and over again in the last years and gave room for plenty of discussions and theories. Now it’s clear: They are Starks. They stick together, whatever may come. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives – which makes Bran’s absence a bit frightening… On the other hand: He said it himself, he is not Brandon Stark anymore, he is the Three Eyed Raven.
And what comes for the pack? Of course the WW. That’s no riddle at all. They breached the Wall, they are roaming free in the North. Of course they will come to Winterfell and of course the pack will fight them – together…
I don’t care if it’s in a few seconds in a teaser. I’ve been waiting for this for what seems like an eternity, ever since this scene way back when in S1e2.
Jon gives Arya Needle
(starts at 1:43)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFdu_lvCTJA
Just watching them draw their swords together, standing side by side ready to fight… I couldn’t have asked for a better visual bookend.
Maybe they go down there to try and rescue their family’s remains before they reanimate as the dead
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“It’s gratifying that Arya’s image holds Needle rather than Catspaw. Needle was born in Winterfell and has been her companion during her diaspora from her home.”
Yes! I was glad about that too. Needle represents so much more than the VS dagger. Even I, a pre-books fan, am familiar with the Arya’s “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue, and the wonderful scene in Season 5 in which she conveyed the emotions of that passage wordlessly.
I also never tire of watching the last 10-15 minutes of S4e1 “Two Swords”, including the buddy comedy portion when Sandor and Arya are watching the inn from the bushes when Arya spots Polliver with Needle. Before Sandor realizes it, Arya is marching to the door and keeps going even when he barks “Get back here!” telling him: “My brother gave me that sword!”
#StickEmWiththePointyEnd
Ten Bears,
Robert Baratheon puts a feather in the statue’s hand in season one.
Seeing Arya & Jon on screen together again sent chills down my spine. Can’t wait for their reunion!
THIS. In bucketloads!
Johanna van Locchum,
“That it was Sansa, who found this feather and replaced it with a candle later, shed some light so to speak, might have been some kind of foreshadowing as well.”
I thought it was significant because Sansa (in her crypts scene with LF) believed the whole “kidnap and rape” fiction about Lyanna and Rhaegar.
“I am or better was a bit confused about the Catelyn bit in there. I always thought her self-accusation, that everything is her fault and her acknowledgement, that she treated Jon badly, was a nice gesture, but also a bit exaggerated. It was a lot to ask of her to take the bastard of her son in…”
I think much of her self-reproach came because she prayed to the gods to get rid of baby Jon, but then when he fell gravely ill she prayed to the gods again to let him live and if they did she promised she’d love him as her own and convince Ned to ask Robert to legitimize him as a Stark. The gods answered her prayers, but she didn’t keep any of those promises. I think in her mind, the gods twice answered her prayers – but she incurred their wrath because she broke her promises, all because she couldn’t live a motherless child.
She probably had to realize on some level that she was transferring her anger against her husband and some anonymous woman, onto an innocent baby. (She really was sh*tty to Jon when he came to say goodbye to Bran; Jon was headed to the Wall and he’d be out of her hair for good and yet she couldn’t be civil for just a few minutes?)
I assume in their world, they take “the gods” seriously. She could justifiably believe the gods were punishing her for double-crossing them, and it was therefore her fault that misfortunes befell her family. At least that’s the way I interpreted her “confession” to Talisa.
Ohmigods. So exciting! 🙂
There is only one hype that matters: the Great Hype… and it is here.
Kevin1989,
Because this is a time for wolves.
The symbolism of this clip is outstanding: the three “Starks” striding through the crypts, united at the end, to finally look death in the eye. Bran is missing as he is no longer a Stark- he’s the 3ER. Jon and Arya are ready to face death (they have before), and Sansa looking on- with no hint of fear in her eyes. Everything they’ve been through, illustrated by their walk and the quotes from their family, has prepared them for this moment; their destiny.
The fallen feather, a symbol of faith and protection of departed loved ones, falls and subsequently becomes frozen- they are no longer protected from they have to face.
And now death approaches.
As for the likeness of Jon’s statue- none of them “look” like the characters, I don’t get all the fuss. Also-they are statues made in medieval times, so they wouldn’t resemble the person they portray anyway, not a big deal.
Loved this teaser; it really was wonderful to see three of our Starks side by side, even if it’s not S8 footage. It makes me even more excited for the season to come, to see them all finally reunited – in time to meet a mortal threat that will hopefully spare them (I have been paying attention, Ramsay, I promise, I did just say *hopefully*).
I think there has been a huge amount of reading into things that didn’t intentionally carry significance on this thread, but that’s what I love about WOTW. I think Jon’s statue I possibly just a poor likeness, rather than showing him as an old man. His beard is much fuller, which gives him the impression of age, but his forehead and face doesn’t appear aged to me. I also don’t feel that they would give away that he survives to an old age (therefore surviving S8) in a promo.
It also seems clear to me that the lines spoken by the ‘ghosts’ are setting up Jon’s parentage reveal as a huge plot earthquake for S8, rather than those lines having a bearing on the Stark girls or even Jon for that matter at this point in time. It’s to remind the viewer of what’s to come and that it’s big news! I also don’t think there’s more to Bran’s omission than him being wheelchair bound and needing to be pushed by one of the girls (as well as the rule of three), and his statue therefore needing to be seated and being at a different height to the others – I feel, visually, this would have complicated what are some slick and very beautifully shaped shots (such as the girls with Jon walking up between them and them all turning with Sansa stood back and the other two drawing their swords and stepping forwards).
I am so ready for April 14th now – though actually for me it will be 2am April 15th. Sadly my husband is away on tour and my kids are off school for the Easter holidays, so I am going to have a painfully sleep deprived Monday trying to deal with them all on my own, but hell, it will be more than worth it.
stefan666,
Why would she? If anything, this makes her the true heir to Winterfell now as Jon can’t inherit given he’s not Ned’s son. And in fact Jon being heir to the Iron Throne means an alliance with the South through Jon – her cousin and not some crazy Lannister that wants to subjugate the North. Mind you none of that will matter now that Winter is here.
Isn’t Bran the true heir to Winterfell?
Jon and Arya together again and drawing their swords in unison is the BEST part of this teaser ❤️❤️❤️. Can’t wait to see them in battle together. The rest will be icing on the cake. April really does not seem far off now.
Fernando,
Good Thought!
Che,
Technically yes, but like he said last season he is more than Bran Stark. He is the 3ER. He did not contest Jon as King of the North or Sansa as defacto ruler in Jon’s absence when he came back. Don’t think he will challenge either of them now either, except he knows who Jon really is now and that has repercussions beyond the North.
Was kinda hoping to see Arya with Dark Sister by … sometime… since more Valyrian steel is going to be needed in the fight to come, more than Catspaw for her.
Just saying that they could’ve just put Bran to be already in front of the statues, either sitting on the floor or some chair, waiting as the other Starks arriving. Assuming he had asked someone to carry him down there (with or without [wheel]chair), he knows things after all, only makes sense he’s the first one to be there awaiting the other Starks.
I do also think his absence doesn’t mean anything deeper than ‘it would cause fans complaining how he got down there with wheelchair’.
Grail King,
Ahh, perhaps you’re right. It seemed so deliberate that Myranda inspected her wrist and there was the feather that she’d found in the crypt. But now I see that she’d had feathers on her wrist(s) earlier in the episode/season. It’s a shame, I think, if it wasn’t the same feather. That would’ve been a nice touch.
Tamwell Sarly,
There’s going to be a ‘spring forward’ time change between then and now to account for the additional hour on the countdown.
(Others may have mentioned this; still working through the thread)
The promos for the show have never once been full of subtle clues that tell the whole story of the season, but every year the new ones are analyzed in that fashion.
Sean C.,
And isn’t that fun?!
I enjoy these discussions very, very much :o)
How much traction does the Bran is NK theory have? Everyone on social media is freaking out saying since Bran wasn’t in the promo, he’s the NK.
Jack Bauer 24,
I’ve always thought it’s too far stretched. If it turned out that way, I’d personally be disappointed. He’s never been built up to be one of the main players, despite being a surviving Stark (he may supposed to be, but the show hasn’t been dealing with him that well in this department).
If he turned out to be the NK, his motive and background story leading to him being the NK would feel like coming all of a sudden, or coming out of nowhere. The theory back ups so far seemed to be taken from the subtlest signs of all.
From memory, the two people who touched the feather: King Robert and Sansa. Maybe the feather represents Jon. Maybe it represents Lyanna’s secret..her ‘forbidden’ love and the child it produced.
Bran is probably a tree at that point 🤷♀️, and the only one who can see the future so what others said in the other thread it makes more sense than him being NK: that he’s the one having the weird dream of his brother and sisters in the crypt. Also he’d know what Cat and Ned said so as to supply the voiceovers. It would totally be in line with him dreaming of Ned in the WF crypts while Ned was having his head chopped off in KL…
Sean C.,
Let me continue this useless trend of analsyis when none is merited.
In the clip, Jon is literally the lightbringer to the confrontation and the fight with the dead. He brings the fire (and light) to the fight.
In the story, Jon is Lightbringer and his role is to bring the dragons’ fire (and light) from Daenerys to the North to her true purpose. The dragons’ fire was re-born to fight the ice. Jon and Daenerys are together for this purpose.
It would be so weird if Jon’s statue being older really means he dies when he’s old while Arya and Sansa looking unchanged means they die young. I’d hate that. Bran needs to revise his dream.
Does Kat have a tomb at Winterfell? I doubt they have a body. In the book they threw the bodies in the river at the Twins.
Agree. I’m kind of amused by the big fuss about Jon’s statue looking older. I don’t see it. All three are coming face-to-face with their own demise with the coming of the NK and the AotD.
Same! Oh so very much same! When I saw the back of Arya a few seconds into the teaser, I got mad chills. Arya and Jon drawing their swords together is basically GoT porn. 🙂
Olli: Each are learning something from their statute whisperers. That is, Jon his true parentage, Arya that she must soften and love again, Sansa that she needs to question her harsh actions.
I’m sorry, what harsh actions? So some people are saying Sansa is a useless whiny character and others argue that she probably needs to question her harsh actions lol, it’s getting ridiculous.
May I remind you that those ‘harsh actions’ were done to get rid of ennemies of her family (and also her tormentors), which is what every character in the show is doing.
TormundsWoman,
With no evidence (of course) it could be two other things – just a poorly done statues like Ned’s OR deliberate misdirection by D&D.
Yes, whispers seeming to come from the statues. Only Bran has access to those conversations from the dead.
When Lyanna says to protect Jon, the ultimate protection would be to save his life. But maybe she meant even more. I argue that protecting Jon didn’t mean sending him to the Wall. What is the life expectancy of a Night’s Watchman? I argue that protection meant treating Jon as one of your own, and Nedd never sent any of his own to the Wall. Nedd could have said a firm ‘no’ when Jon asked to go.
When Cat says that she couldn’t love a motherless boy. Does she mean cuddles and kisses? I think love means treating Jon as one of her own and allowing her husband to give him the Stark name and an inheritance, behind Robb. Now all the boys are dead – virtually – leaving only Jon.
When Nedd tells Jon that he is a Stark, Nedd knows that it’s a lie! Sure, Jon has Stark blood, but Nedd knows how things work in his world, and that Jon is Targaryen!
Then there’s this Jesus vibe to everything where Jon figuratively wears rags and is treated with contempt while being a secret King/God. The idea is that people would have been kinder to him if they knew who he really was, in other words, they’re fake. Jon’s true friends are those who love him when they think he’s nobody. Then there’s another category of people who’ll hate him when they find out he’s really a King-King!
By ‘people’ I mean Cat and Sansa.
I can’t remember if she does in show, or if it was just for the promo.
Anon,
I thought everyone knew Jon was declared King of the North?
Yes, Jon is a Jesus-like figure like Frodo in LOTR. Both exit the story when their purpose is served.
There’s something essential that lies beneath the naming conventions of men. The question is whether who you are has anything to do with the name you’re given or the name that you’ve been denied.
Is who you are genetic? Or is it something else, like destiny. Jon’s in-betweenness is really intriguing. He’s not exactly a Targaryen, nor is he a Stark…but undeniably, he has elements of both inside him. Maybe Jon is no-thing at all, like Arya sought to become.
This shit is too deep, George!
Anon,
Jon is a Stark – his mother was Lyanna Stark. Jon is Sansa’s cousin.
…a King twice over: KITN and heir to the Iron Throne.
Jack Bauer 24,
But it’d be the perfect day to make sure people bought their tickets for Cleganebowl.
Hmmm… Didn’t Cat have another attack guilt when young Jon took ill and almost died. Didn’t Cat sit at his bedside all night and promise the Gods that if they’d save Jon she would let her husband give him the Stark name etc. Then when Jon recovered, she went right back to rejecting him. In other words, she broke a promise to the Gods and nurtured her bitterness.
Gotta watch that scene again.
Anon,
Jon is not the current heir to the Iron Throne nor really any heir to the Iron Throne. Never mind Bran who first thought he was Jon Sand.
If the R+L marriage is legit, then Jon can assert a claim as he is in the line of Targ succession. However, this line of succession was ended by Ned and Robert. You will notice that when Robert died Ned declared Stannis. He did not send for Daenerys (who he knew was alive) nor did he send for Jon (who he knew had declared for the NW without knowing his parentage). I think Ned can be unwise but many like his views and he was clear in his mind on this question.
Look at it this way – would you say that Prince William is heir to ruling the USA? The British crown ruled the US after the English established the US after conquest over the many nations living here when the Europeans arrived. The English kings established a ruling dynasty over the US. This ruling dynasty was removed by a local rebellion and a new leadership structure established. The British crown lost their line of succession in the US. In this same manner, the Targs lost their line of succession in Westeros. Yes, Prince William and Queen Elizabeth could assert a claim to rule the US as sovereigns but to enforce it, they will have to do it by conquest. War.
The main implication of Jon’s lineage is that Daenerys’ belief that she has a right to rule Westeros is pathetic. Daenerys’ claim is weaker than Jon. She can however also rule by conquest and seek allies based on the Targ succession line once Jon is dead or declines. Even if she marries Jon after they win by conquest, she still will not rule Westeros anymore than Robert’s wife ruled Westeros when he was king. She can be a power behind the throne or co-leader but that is about it unless Jon dies.
I’d assume they’ll just do the standard Westeros intro they’ve done even when an episode has few locations, such as “The Watchers on the Wall” that was entirely around Castle Black. They do have an opportunity to mess with it a little, show how the NK is advancing. White Harbor, Last Hearth and Karhold are other possible locations that could be pinpointed early.
Without analyzing the teaser too much, I will say that the depth of my excitement was EVEN MORE than I had anticipated it would be..great teaser. I don’t hold much stock in the “meaning”, but agree that the words spoken as they enter are a look back at what has been and then with them together at the end, a look at what IS. Great teaser.
It would be a bad take to have the feather represent lies, IMO. Too many people are aware (probably a high proportion of GoT fans are into mythology) that in ancient Egypt, a feather is the symbol of Ma’at, Goddess of Truth. When you die, your heart is weighed against the Feather of Ma’at. If the contents of your heart are impure and tip the scale down, you are immediately fed to a monster of the Underworld and get no shot at eternal life. It’s actually a rather resonant symbol of the feeling of lightness that comes with a clear conscience and having nothing to hide.
What bringing the feather as an offering to Lyanna’s statue meant to Robert is another matter. In Native American lore, to give someone a feather is always a high honor, but with symbolism that varies depending on the species of bird (this would probably mean more in GoT if we were talking about a Dothraki or Wildling character, rather than a Baratheon). Perhaps he saw her as birdlike in her high-spiritedness?
Beautiful teaser; cinematography, music, mood, lighting, I enjoyed the slow threatening buildup. Best teaser yet. I have to concur with others, Jon’s statue was that of a older 70ish man, his left pupil was missing (blind?), Arya’s on first glance appears to be older too, that of a mature woman. There’s not as much facial detail to Sansa’s as the others, a hint she died elsewhere? as if the sculptor didn’t know her. I do believe the man sitting is Bran, a old wizened man, big beard and carrying a staff (symbol of a wizard/seer). Hopefully we get a Lannister and Targ tease too.
Oops! In my post on Jon as heir – I should have said unless Jon dies again – as I think will. Or at least he will exit in some way. He is undead at the moment…
Does anyone know when GoT released the episode titles the last couple of seasons? was that one month before or more?
For season 7 we didn’t even get them all before the season had started. I believe they felt even the titles were spoilery.
Mango,
I’m not invested in this line of argument because I am no fan of dynasties. Nedd had a lot of hard choices to make, but when he went to King’s Landing and saw for himself that Robert was a terrible King, maybe it put him into even greater turmoil thinking that the Rebellion was a mistake, along with the opening that it gave to the Lannisters to eventually cease power. And there he was with the Mad King’s grandson living under his roof.
The interesting thing about Dany is that not only is she a potential heir, but also a conqueror. Right now she doesn’t know about Jon, but when she finds out, it will put the two of them into conflict… briefly. I see Dany as being able to let go of power, when necessary. Jon is not one to fight for power, either.
Son of a bitch! I edited into the quote and the timer ran out.
S7 finale title wasn’t released until five days before it aired. They withheld the titles last season until very late in other words. I’d expect that to be done again.
I think we’re overthinking the purpose of the feather. For the more superstitious, feathers are a very well known symbol that the person who finds the feather is being protected by a departed loved one, and/or that their guardian angel is close by.
This fits in pretty well with the fact the Starks are walking through the family crypt, as well as the whispers from the family ghosts.
How we managed to connect that to lies of the past is beyond me 🤷🏼♂️
TormundsWoman,
Wasn’t it Rickon who dreamt it? Or did he just know Ned wasn’t coming back?
Wolfish,
Both dreamt it. Osha took Bran in the crypt to see for himself that Ned wasn’t there and there they were attacked (sort of) by Shaggydog. Rickon called him back and told them he too came to see father in the crypts because he dreamt Ned was there.
Actually, I should have said angel instead of Jesus….angel as in emissary of God. I recall a story in the bible about hospitality and the God of Abraham sending his emissaries to a city to delivery a message. The people try to rape the angels and God destroys the city…or something like that. Then this dude offered up his daugters to be raped instead of the angels because hospitality is such a vital principle that the storyteller juxtaposes the father’s abhorrent act to illustrate it’s importance. Of course, none of it really happened, it’s just a story to illustrate how important it is to be kind to the stranger who takes shelter under your roof.
Mango,
Disagree.
Although this topic is highly debatable.
1.) Your comparison with Britain and the USA lags. Britain accepted the independence of the 13 states in the Paris treaty from 1783. They acknowledged the outcome of the War of Independence and made peace with the new established government. Hadn’t they done so and never afterwards, mind you, Prince William technically would be the crown prince of the USA today as well. The Targaryens on the other hand never accepted their defeat, never accepted the new dynasty on the throne and no one ever made peace. Au contraire: 15 years after the war Robert Baratheon still dreamed of killing every Targaryen he gets his hands on and was still called the usurper by some people. On the other side of the ocean Viserys went nuts over what was lost and sold his sister to a Dothraki warlord to gain an army and take back what he thought was rightfully his. So, the structure of ruling and holding the power in Westeros was highly doubtful in the first place. Which was kind of the reason why this whole story started in the first place and why it was so dangerous for Ned to find out the truth about Joffrey and his siblings. The last thing the reigning house needed were doubts on the legitimacy of the throne heir. You just have to look how Richard III. became king of England during the War of the Roses.
2.) Daenery’s claim for the throne is a lot of things, but not pathetic. It simply depends on which line of sucession you follow, even in the Targaryen tradition. Yes, they usually stuck to the tradition that the firstborn male became heir to the throne, but occasionally they differed from that. Not always with the best result. I recall there something like the Blackfyre rebellion and the Dance of the Dragons. Not to speak of Aemon who pulled himself out of the discussion by becoming a maester and joining the Night’s Watch. So, according to this tradition, yes, Jon is de facto the heir to the throne. Which is completely ineffective because a) he doesn’t want the crown, b) he already bent the knee to Daenerys, resp. gave her his word, and we all know, that Jon never breaks his word, c) it will be hard to proof his rightful claim, even if Sam was so clever to take the septon’s diary with him, because let’s face it: his brother saw this in a vision… I doubt this is legally binding, even in Westeros. So, the outcome would be another in-fight between the different parties. I highly doubt, that Jon will let this happen on his behalf, esp. not for something he does not really want. (Which is why it will be interesting to see after the wars are over – and given he survives – what it is that Jon wants 😉 ) and d) even if Jon would be accepted as Rhaegar’s son, it would get quite complicated. Jon was born after Rhaegar died. Which is why by the time he was born, technically Viserys was the rightful heir to the throne. In medieval times in the real world, if something like this happened – the king or his heir dying while his wife was pregnant – they usually waited until the child was born to figure out who was rightfully next in line. And if I recall it correctly there have been similar situations in Westeros. But in this case no one knew of Lyanna, less so of Jon, hence: no claim for the throne. So, yes, being Viserys’ heiress, Daenerys’ claim to the throne is legit.
3.) As I pointed out this highly debatable topic could lead immediately to a new “game for the throne” if there are two fractions prefering one or the other on the throne. Something which could lead to another war, something Westeros sooooo not needs anymore, and which would cause even more mayhem than the last ones, given that Daenerys’ dragons survive. Neither Jon nor Dany would want that. So, trust me, they will find a solution for this problem and taking both their character into consideration I bet it will be one, where no one stands behind anyone or anything.
Agreed. I don’t expect the premiere title until April.
Firannion,
Yes, someone else mentioned that to me as well, although he said, that the feather as a symbol for Ma’at represents truth and order, which would fit in my eyes as well as lies. Also, wouldn’t lying not also be considered as a sin, which has to be weighed? I just couldn’t get the words of Ned out of mind, when I saw this: “All the lies.”
Anyway, as I said: This teaser is full of symbolism, it will keep us busy until April! 😉
Then what is the purpose of Jon’s leadership arc which has spanned most of the story? More so than any other character (except Dany, who has had a similar arc). Why hide a secret king through an epic if you don’t intend to use him?
Johanna van Locchum,
I chuckled at this response. Interesting take.
Conquest is conquest. Force is force. War is war. War ends dynasties.
The losing group are not usually asked for their consent. If they are it is obtained under duress and threat of murder. Or they decide not to bother for now. The agreements are invalid (ask the Native Americans!) but stands as long as it is enforced. Yes some losers give up and never reassert their claim.
When Robb was declared King of the North. The Northerners asserted they had only bowed to the Targs because of the dragons – fear of death. The stories tell how fierce the Westerosi fought the Targs. Yet you are still asserting that the Targs have a line of succession.
Similarly, the Targs did not have to agree or not when they were deposed. Robert understood that they could try to reassert that power. Both the Targs and Robert held the throne on the same basis – they intended to defend it.
Anyway it is nice to see an assertion that Ned (and Robert) were treasonous for nearly his entire life. Maybe Ned should have sent for Dany and given her the throne.
What words of Ned?
Enharmony1625,
That’s what I see too. All 3 characters are coming face to face and having to confront near certain death in the NK & Army of the Dead. What’s really noticeable is that both Jon and Arya have weapons to defend themselves while Sansa does not. Could this be foreshadowing that Sansa may not have control (once again) of her own fate? That she will be at the mercy of others once again?
As for the voice overs, D&D have the subtlety of a brick crashing through a window. I think that Cat’s voicing how she could not love Jon will be played out through Sansa in some way. She will be forced to either embrace Jon as a Stark despite him being a Targ or rather to seize on an opportunity from that information to grab power.
We must remember that Sansa’s 2 biggest mentors/influences are Cersei & Littlefinger. And they both would most definitely use Jon’s parentage to their own advantage. I think that dilemma and Cersei will be Sansa’s main story this season because we know she won’t be fighting. She said “The Pack” survives at the end of last season. But is Jon (Aegon Targaryen) attached to Daenerys Targaryen still a part of the Stark wolfpack??? It’ll be interesting to see what she decides and chooses this season.
Arya’s walkthrough looked more down a hallway than the crypts with an accompanying statue. I think this signifies that she is focused on the big picture and not the politics of it all. The past and parentage of whomever doesn’t matter. As Ned says to Jon, that he’s a Stark in blood if not name. That will be good enough for Arya. It’ll be interesting to see how it affects Jon though. His line to Theon of being a Greyjoy and Stark may resurface this final season.
I also thought it was strange that Jon’s statue looked much older and did not quite resemble, but I did not thought of what you did, JenniferH… I like that idea. I hope it keeps me warm during the long night!
I also found very interesting your take on the way the walk… thanks for this!
i hope they don’t release a trailer! lets keep it a surprise
whats the point of a trailer
stefan666,
Except Jon’s looks older, while the other two are about the same age of Sansa and Arya
Che,
Jon has focused on the problems beyond the wall as he was sworn to do when he joined a cloistered order. He has grown up and means well but his leadership record is very uneven. He was murdered by his men and his sister had to bail him out of certain death at the BoB. Edd told him when to bail from Hardhome. Jon and Daenerys managed to deliver a dragon to the NK. He was declared King of the North for a battle that his sister won for him.
In the entire series, Jon has been south once – to Dragonstone and KL. He would have at least seen more of Westeros if he had gone overland instead of sailing back to the North.
Sansa has also evolved as a leader – but she understands Westeros much better.
Jack Bauer 24,
I’m thinking/hoping that they will be running GoT previous season marathons the weekends between True Detective and GoT.
Che,
Jon is also a fire wight. Undead.
Sansa’s weapon used to be her courtesy, but now it’s something else. If we’re saying that Jon is a Stark because he was raised with Starks, then is Sansa a Lannister/Bolton/Baelish because she spent so many of her formative years with those people?
I think we can agree that she’s not at peace with her circumstances. She doesn’t like it that Jon is KITN. She doesn’t like it that Bran has rejected his birthright. I don’t think she likes that she has to extend hospitality to the Dragon Queen; although, if she was thinking rationally, she’d see that it’s a good thing. What would cause her to think irrationally is a desire to be THE Queen.
GhostCR,
I don’t think it looks older, it just looks bad, like everyone elses.
Dee Stark,
I get your point but the trailer is a huge thing. I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t excited for it just as much as I am for an actual episode.
Now for some tinfoil: What was up with the feather? Could it represent Bran? He is the 3 eyed raven now. Jon walks past his mother’s statue without a glance. Could this signify that Jon has moved on past worrying about who his mother was anymore and is focused on the War for the Dawn?
Lyanna says you must protect him. Then the feather falls to the ground and alerts Jon and he looks back. Could this be a misdirection that Jon must “protect” Bran? Or is the feather more a direct representation of Bran revealing to Jon the Tower of Joy and the truth of his mother and father.
So Jon had finally gotten past it all and then it’s thrown back into his lap. He will then be forced to deal with the 2nd voice over of Ned telling him he’s a Stark in blood if not name. So will that be Jon’s struggle this year? Finding a way to embrace both his Stark and Targ heritage or will he choose only one?
Then final tinfoil: The Night King and ice moves over the feather. Does this mean that Bran (the feather) will fall to the Night King & Army of the Dead? Is that why Bran’s not shown? Or is it just simply that the Night King could care less about Starks/Targs/Thrones or whatever? He’s coming to destroy it all.
Jon and the Night King have shared 2 intense stare downs already. They definitely seem destined for a final showdown. Is Jon’s parentage and birth (The Prince that was Promised) directly related to the Night King? Is it prophecy? Will Bran see this through the Weirnet? Will the truth of it come from the Red Priests? There could actually be a lot of hidden imagery in this teaser. Be interesting to see how it plays out and if we’ll be able to look back and say they did actually give us clues and hints in the first teaser.
Sansa isn’t a Tully because she’s Cat’s daughter. I get it that they’re family, but according to convention, they wouldn’t refer to Jon by his mother’s family name, Stark…he’d be a Targaryen.
If George intended for his audience to question identity, then he succeeded. Even Lyanna questioned Sansa’s identity as a Stark after she married a Lannister then a Bolton and spent so much time under their influence.
All of the statues look like Jon, Sansa and Arya… in 40 years.
Maybe they all die of old age?… and the person sitting at the end of the teaser could be Bran in 40 years.
A Time for Wolves… A Dream of Spring
In my eyes it looked like Jon and Arya are going to protect Sansa rather than themselves.
What, if it’s the NK comming to take home his new NQ???
I agree, on the show he has been a lot more patchy than the books (as most of those things haven’t happened at all and won’t, or they haven’t happened yet). He’s much shrewder in the books and a better leader than he is in the show. I doubt that GRRM is developing him in that fashion and laid the seeds of an enormous reveal making him a legitimate heir to the Targaryen throne (assuming this happens in the books too – it seems quite a liberty for D&D to take if not) if it isn’t going to play a part in Jon’s endgame.
I often wonder why people suggest Sansa has been on a leadership role. To me, she has learnt how to manipulate people and how to survive. It is only since season 7 that she has actually had a chance to lead (and she seems to be doing a good job in the limited capacity of Wintefell and the “weather vane” Northern lords). I wouldn’t say that means she understands Westeros more than Jon. She understands the twisted ways of politics perhaps – but does she understand the people? Can she inspire them? Whichever person assumes the throne (as I am sure there will be one as they’re not suddenly going to adopt democracy in a medieval based fantasy world) is going to need to have the support of the people as the aristocracy will be all but wiped out. The two characters who have cared about everyday people and tried to make decisions to better their fates (and his inspire their loyalty and devotion) are Jon and Daenerys.
I’m not saying I definitely believe Jon will be a king, but I don’t think it’s as implausible as many make out.
I’m updating my previous post…Jon’s left eye is intact, I’ve seen a still that clearly shows his left pupil. Concerning the statues facial appearance representing the characters, Ned and Catelyn’s appear to be younger versions of them, therefore could all the statues in the crypts be of Starks in their prime, but then the sitting Stark with the staff clearly is older as is the one of Jon, what could the symbolism of this mean. Obviously the intent of this teaser was for fans to dissect and become confused, the bastards.
That’s taking a quote from GRRM that was used to describe BookBeric and applying it to ShowJon. If, as we all assume, he is able to have BoatBaby with Dany, then he is alive enough to become a king.
We don’t know yet how Jon will come back in the books – I doubt he will come back the same way and be the same entity that Beric is. Why would GRRM bother with R+L=J if he was going to kill him off?
firstone,
possibly. In the book, I believe it says that all the statues are sitting with their swords across their laps and their direwolves at their sides. I think that’s correct. I’ll have to check again. Maybe the show went with standing statues because they visually look better. I wish someone can get a screencap of the sitting statue for further analysis. It very well could represent Bran.
I know I wrote before that I don’t need a trailer, but considering the quality of just this teaser I’m really wanting to see one. I think people are super hungry for anything GoT right now. The teaser is still #1 trending and going up about a million views every couple of hours. Too bad we (still) have three months to go.
Jon is a member of the Stark family, whatever his legal surname properly is, because that is how he was raised and with whom he identifies (and this is reciprocated). And, of course, he is by blood a Stark as well, hence the magic wolf.
Being kidnapped and held prisoner doesn’t make you not a member of your family.
Following that line of reasoning, Jon is also a Mormont/Giantsbane/Thorne/Baratheon/Seaworth… which is pure BS.
Here we go again… Sansa must be an irrational power-hungry spawn of Cersei and Littelfinger. It couldn’t possibly be that she resents Jon yielding the freshly obtained independence of the North to a Targaryen, an act that will create unrest among the Northern Lords (who have been shown to be fickle af.) No no, it HAS to be her bottomless ambition to become THE QUEEN (is that you Margaery?)
She understands Westeros politics as they used to be. But will it remain the same after the shocks that system has sustained (the war of the 5 kings, the fact the whole important houses have dissappeared or are in turmoil, and the almost total “renovation” of the leadership?
Things might revert to business as usual, of course, but I think it would take some time and it will depend also on who survives. Her skills might not be so useful in dealing with the likes of Lady Mormont, Tyrion, Bran and Sam.
Fair enough. So if being held captive doesn’t make you not a member of your family, then what does? Does marriage transform you into a member of another family? I think this is what we’re pondering. Is it how you think that makes you a member of a family? Is it genetics, or blood, as the Westerosi call it? Does identifying with your kidnappers rob you of your birth identity? Is it different if your kidnappers treat you cruelly – like they did to Sansa – or treat you kindly like they did to Theon?
To be clear, I DO NOT think Jon is a Stark because he was raised with Starks.
Anon,
Jon is Stark because he was raised (not only with them) but AS one. He shares the same values the Ned, Benjen, and Robb had. He has always desired to be naturalized (he admits so to Sam after refusing Stannis offer.)
Even if he’s the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, he’s a Targaryen only in nature, not in nurture.
Aegon the IceDragon,
I got one, but I don’t know, how to put it here.
I played a bit with photoshop… and therefore don’t think the sitting statue shall be Bran in later years or so.
The statues of the other wolfchildren don’t look as if they shall represent them in later years but just in time.
They are statues in stone, not colored – just like black-white photographs show people more contured and sharpened than colored photographs, so they seem to be older. And the flittering light does it’s part to it.
Anon,
Isn’t it different for each one though? You’re looking for a general rule but in these cases the general rule (whatever that is) doesn’t apply since they are particular cases. I consider Cat a Tully but the trailer statues says she’s a Stark. Theon was raised by Starks but he identifies himself as a Greyjoy mostly. However Jon sees him as partly Stark, expecting the same loyalty from him as he would from a Stark. And finally, Jon may be a Targaryen because of his father (like Sansa is a Stark because of the same) but I would be surprised if he’d consider himself not a Stark because of that.
I’m actually looking forward to all the backwards glances over his shoulder expecting to see some other dude there that he’ll have when people start calling him Aegon Targaryen.
Y’all, Bran is in the crypts.
You can see him enter as a cloud of snow and ice.
😉
Yeah, it’s irrational if she’s thinking only on the surface of things. On the surface, it’s annoying to her to give up the North’s supposed independence. Were they really independent though? How could they be when they don’t have sufficient numbers to fight the Walkers? I mean, she has the Vale troops parked outside the walls and they’re still not enough.
Sansa might be approaching things from the position of petulance, and not thinking about their very dire circumstances. Jon couldn’t very well go to the Dragon Queen asking for help while claiming he’s independent. Jon did try to hold out, but bent the knee when Dany flew to his aid without asking anything in return.
It really does look like Jon’s statue is significantly more aged than the other two which worries me. The fact that Arya’s statue has Needle drawn while Jon’s is tucked away makes me wonder if she *gulps* dies in battle.
It is also significant that Jon is interred in the crypts along with the Kings and Lords of Winter, meaning he and the rest of his family will eventually seem him more as a Stark than a Targaryen when the truth finally comes out. I’m still not entirely sure that the news will be shared beyond the core Stark family and Dany, unless of course, GRRM’s plan is to renew the Targaryen bloodline, then it will have to be known publicly that Jon is Rhaegar’s son in order the rebuild the house, unless it becomes a matrilineal line which I’d be down for.
Catelyn’s voiceover actually extends to Arya as well as she says ” … I couldn’t love a motherless child” which was a nice transition because Arya has always loved Jon. And I do think Sansa has learned from the mistakes of the past and will still consider Jon her brother.
Also I re-watched the scene where Robert places the feather on Lyanna’s hands and he is talking about how “she belonged with me” and when Ned tells him that the Targaryens are gone, he still stands in front of her saying “Not all of them.” He was speaking of Dany and Viserys, but even Lyanna became a Targaryen by marriage. I’m probably reading waaay too much into this but the feather is significant since it is shown twice within this short clip. First the feather falls, then it freezes over. So I think the Robert Baratheon narrative will be discarded and the Starks will know the truth.
P.s. Who made that poll about Podrick? HILARIOUS! 😂
Oh yes! It’s not like she had to placate the Northern/Vale Lords when Jon was being absent too long for their liking… You know, the same ones that veiledly suggested her to depose Jon.
Why call Sansa’s wariness “caution” when you can call it “petulance”?
That’s kind of a slap in the face considering that they denied him – painfully – the Stark name itself! Jon Snow was his given name.
But all of that politicking is what it means to be a ruler. How can she want to rule but resent the very act of ruling. Maybe she resents doing it on Jon’s behalf.
Anon,
Only by a King’s (or Queen’s) decree can a bastard be naturalized. I asume Ned never asked Robert in order to further protect Jon.
Che,
In his own words – Season 7, Episode 3 when Sansa said he was the true heir – “Bran: “I can never be Lord of Winterfell. I can never be lord of anything. I’m the Three-Eyed Raven.”
Over excited! I loved the teaser! CAN’T WAIT!
I’m sure a scene of Sansa laughing maniacally while juggling hot potatoes and screaming “I LOVE POLITICKING” was edited out of Season 7. It is known.
Anon,
I completely understand why some people view Sansa the way they do. I think the writers often write her as a grey character so people can interpret her actions certain ways. It’s the same way they write nearly every character expect people like Sam or Cersei who’ve got layers but are ultimately good or bad. However Sansa’s actions as a child gets held against her and her actions as a young adult seem to be belittled or misinterpreted at times.
In my opinion, I think Sansa showed herself in season 7 as thinking about the bigger picture. She was preparing for a siege, ensuring the right choices were made so that the Northern Armies and people were going to make it through Winter, supplying advice for the clothing and ensuring the lords loyalties to Jon. Sansa didn’t even see herself as the rightful lady of winterfell, just look at how she handled Bran’s return and insisting he was the of Lord of Winterfell, he’s not Bran anymore, she didn’t want to keep the title as she knew it wasn’t hers with Bran being back. The Lords wanted to rescind their crowning of Jon but Sansa refused. She knows how loyalties can be easily swayed and she was making sure that they continued to follow Jon. He’s her family and he can help secure her safety and they know they’re stronger together than separated. That’s why they need to trust each other.
Don’t get me wrong, season 7 wasn’t written well for the most part. It wasn’t the strongest season by far and did some of the previous season some disservice. Once instances is that they had intentional misleads to confuse the loyalties of Sansa and the sanity of Arya but they ultimately worked together to get rid of Littlefinger, probably their families greatest immediate risk. They could’ve shown Sansa in her leadership role more or had more scenes between Arya and Sansa scheming together but they chose to leave it open to allow the auidence to be misled.
Ultimately, Sansa didn’t want Jon to leave to go to Dragonstone because of the imminent war. He’s the strategist and fighter. She’s not and the last think she wants was for him to be captured as a prisoner when the dead were on the way. Besides they only upjust reunited and he was leaving her alone. Sansa didn’t say they shouldn’t negotiate with Tyrion and the Dragon Queen, she just didn’t think it should’ve been Jon who should’ve gone. Davos initially agreed that an emissary should have been sent instead. And as far as Northern Independence is concerned, they raised an army, they overtook the Northern strong hold and the North crowned a King of their own. Those actions declared independence from the southern throne.
I also think the bending of the knee might come back into the forefront next season. They didn’t show how it should’ve been done at the beginning of season 7 with Ned and Alys bending the knee for nothing, nor did they have Jon’s comment about every word before the word but being BS and then have Jon privately bend the knee before the word but. I know he publicly said DT was Queen in the dragonpit scene, there just seems to be too many red herrings or misinterpretations from the previous seasons not to follow up again.
TormundsWoman,
I think maybe George and the producers will have an answer for us on what it means to be a Stark, specifically.
My sense is that it has something to do with the promise, or pact, that one makes….the debt that one owes. To be a part of a family means to fulfill certain promises, even when you didn’t make them yourself. It means to carry on their traditions… is my tentative answer.
I feel that Jon isn’t really a Stark, but he’ll wind up having to uphold Stark promises and pay their debts. This is the kind of tragic outcome that I don’t wish on him. This might be the big reveal that I’m expecting.
He kind of balked when Dany tried to hold him to Starks bending the knee in perpetuity to the Targaryens.
Well, it has worked out to Jon’s benefit by leaving his name open so he can choose for himself. Of course, back then it was just painful to Jon to be denied his father’s name.
Netheb,
I just thought that the quote about a “motherless child” cold refer to Dany in this case. Dany is aslo a motherless child who never had anything resembling a true family (Viserys doesn’t count and Drogo was too shortlived). And she is in a dire need of one: not only Jon but the whole pack. However, from what we see Sansa is definitely not inclined to welcome Dany into the family and Arya may be cautious and spit out some sisterly jelousness in the beginning, too. So, Catelyn’s words could be sort of a warning for both of them to accept not only Jon but also all what comes with him (otherwise the consequences may be dire).
Even though Jon is a Targaryen and the true heir to the IT, that changes nothing. In nobody’s eyes will he be more of a Targaryen than Dany is. The only thing that gives him is the said truer claim, but he doesn’t even want it and I can’t see Jon sitting on the IT however hard I try. If he does, I guarantee it will be with Dany by his side or the other way around. The only other options are Dany alone, Sansa alone or an actual democracy. Literally any other character sitting on the IT would be a joke, let’s be honest. Although I wouldn’t mind an evil ending where Cersei actually keeps it lol.
That makes perfect sense. Because the Stark family will surely suffer and most likely become extinct if they don’t accept Dany and her help. But could D&D also create some intrigue there with Sansa by saying the Night King would never have breached The Wall if not for Dany and her dragons? There’s still room in there for the mistakes of Cat to be repeated in her daughter(s).
stefan666,
How can any other character be a joke and not Sansa? The thought of Sansa sitting the Iron Throne is more laughable than any other main character on the show. Samwell Tarly has done more to be considered worthy to rule. Hell Lyanna Mormont has shown herself to be a better ruler in less than 5 minutes of screentime. Give me Jon, Dany, or Arya. If not them, then let the Night King win.
I agree with you on this except I would also see Sansa sitting the Iron Throne as a joke. It would come out of nowhere to me and seem totally wrong. I really hope they don’t go that way – I hope she remains the Lady of Winterfell, Wardeness of the North and in control of her own destiny, as that really does seem to be the natural conclusion to her story. Aside from wanting to marry a prince and become the queen when she was a child, she hasn’t really shown any inclination towards wanting to or aspiring to sit on the iron throne since then (even with LF’s schemes and plans and his confiding in her he wanted to sit on the IT with her a this side, I didn’t feel she shared that goal). Her story hasn’t been linked with becoming a queen at all since Joffrey cast her aside, so it would be very sudden if she suddenly became queen of the 7 kingdoms.
I am intrigued what they will do if both Jon and Dany did. As I really don’t think democracy will happen, I doubt Cersei will keep it and yet I can’t see anyone else taking the throne (it would feel shoe-horned in for anyone else). I don’t like the idea of an orphaned Boatbaby being raised to assume the throne when they come of age with Tyrion/Sansa acting as Regent until they do as I feel that is a betrayal of two characters that have become the central focus of this huge work of art and the journeys they have gone on.
It seems the closer we get to S8, the more impassioned I become about how I want it all to end – not good, not good at all!! 😬 I want to love this final season.
Juri,
Ned would never have given Jon the Stark name. He is a Targaryen, the legitimate son of his sister and Rhaegar. If the King made Jon a Stark he would no longer be a Targ.
Direcat,
I think there were multiple reasons for Ned not to ask Robert to naturalize Jon, the main ones being to “hide” him from Robert’s bloodthirstiness against any Targaryen and to not further aggravate Catelyn. But I doubt that Ned wanted to preserve Jon’s “Targaryen-ness”.
Yeah it’s at 9 million now. I didn’t realize the Dragonstone teaser got up to 18 million https://youtu.be/NspqGM0DbbQ
I also very much suspect that with these long episodes and the crazy cliffhangers they’re going to set up, we can probably expect one episode every two weeks. That would skip Memorial day and leave us with June 16th as the last episode! It’d make sense to build anticipation , and honestly, anything to keep GoT going a little longer..
There’s always still the chance Tyrion is Aerys bastard and rules if Dany and Jon both die.
Even if he’s not, I’m betting on Tyrion ruling either way. Possibly not for himself but as regent for Jon + Dany kid after they both die.
Cersei would be hilarious…
QueenofThrones,
Making Tyrion Aerys’ bastard at this point of the story and with no previous hints about it in past seasons would be a horrible deus-ex-machina. I would rather have Pod sitting on the Iron Thrones with Missandei as his queen if we are talking about monstruosities.
I kind of like this idea, Inga. It ties into this idea of hospitality that the show keeps going back to. Arya came across Lannister soldiers who invited her to warm up by their fire and shared their meagre supper. She was a beneficiary of hospitality from people she’d never expect it from.
When the Dragon Queen arrives at Winterfell, I don’t expect Arya to oppose it, but maybe Sansa will. How far she’ll go, I don’t know. Will she scheme against Dany, and by extension, Jon?
I don’t think it can be assumed that Sansa has settled down and accepted the way things are.
This just hit me that Ned was honoring his promise to his sister only. He didn’t give a damn about Rhaegar. Even after talking to Lyanna, Ned was still denying her choices in life and denying a part of Jon.
I’d always assumed that he meant to tell Jon the truth when they met. But even in their parting, Ned was still lying to Jon that he was a Stark. And when was this future conversation to happen? Ned would be stuck in the south for years until Robert bid him leave, and Jon was stuck at the Wall with it’s low life expectancy. I don’t see too many old guys at the Wall, do you?
Plus, Ned said he’d tell him about his mother, no? What did he intend to say about that, exactly? Did Ned intend to tell the whole truth that his mother was Lyanna and that she and Rhaegar loved each other? Who knows.
Yeah. And in addition, Sansa wasn’t raised by these families. She spent a cumulative approx. four and a half years with the Lannisters, Boltons, and with Littlefinger from the ages 11/12 to 16/17. Sansa was raised by her own family from birth and was with her own family until Ned was executed in King’s Landing. In contrast to Jon, Sansa wasn’t raised by only one side of her family because she didn’t have to be, nobody was coming after her because of who her dad was. Sansa received influences from both sides of her family via Catelyn and Ned, neither side is unknown or foreign to her. Her legal name Stark happens to coincide with the identity she was raised with – but if she had a secret identity and was born with another name, it wouldn’t magically make Sansa a part of that family.
On the flip side, the only family Jon has ever known since birth has been his Stark family, he is culturally a Stark, identifies with the Stark way, he was raised by Ned as the only father he has ever known, and the Starks as the only family he’s ever known. Jon’s got strong, lifelong bonds with his Stark family. As Sean C. mentioned, even in the eyes of whatever mysterious force(s) there are in Westeros, Jon is a Stark because Jon was granted a direwolf as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon were. I don’t think family identity is wholly dependent on a name – as illustrated by Theon’s inner conflict. Jon may legally have the Targaryen name and any magic his Valyrian blood grants (doubled magic from Stark and Targaryen!), but it’s a name he’s never known, it’s a family he’s never known, it’s a culture he’s never known. Jon is a Stark in every way but name and this is what Ned was talking about. A birth name doesn’t erase a person’s lifetime of memories, experiences, and feelings like an iPhone reset.
On the subject of marital identity, Catelyn didn’t give up her Tully roots when she married a Stark. Her cultural identity and lifetime of experiences didn’t change. It’s not like when she married Ned, Catelyn’s Southron Tully culture was erased and a Northern Stark culture put in its place. I kind of see where you’re coming from but I don’t think a legal name makes a person who they are. It’s so much more.
Well, at least in the books, as far as I recall, there were quite a few wizened old dudes at the Wall. Mormont is nearing 70, Maester Aemon himself manages to live until 101 there, etc. And speaking of which…
Well… joining the Night’s Watch is something of a Stark family tradition – Benjen joined young and so did generations of Starks who came before. It’s seen as a noble and honourable calling by the Starks and the North. I’d argue the Night’s Watch is a form of protection and Jon definitely needed a special kind of protection that kept people from killing him for his Targaryen heritage (Dany and Viserys spent their lives on the run). Jon was protected from Robert in the Night’s Watch, he was beyond the crown’s power, he was with other family members (Benjen and Aemon), there were some good people there (like Lord Commander Mormont), he had opportunities for advancement and leadership. As for danger, at the time Jon joined, the Night’s Watch was hardly the volatile place we’ve seen it become. Nobody knew (or believed) the White Walkers had returned and there weren’t many major battles taking place. The Night’s Watch wouldn’t pose much danger to a trained guy like Jon. As the highborn bastard son of a great lord – and those are the guys the Night’s Watch still favour for leadership – Jon had opportunities. It’s not a great place (but few places in Westeros are) and it’s a hard life but Jon had just as much training and education as Benjen and other nobles who joined. For better or worse, in Ned’s mind, the Night’s Watch was the best and safest option at the time for Jon when he was forced into making quick and sudden decisions for all his kids upon Robert’s arrival. Decisions I don’t think Ned had truly prepared for all that much because it seems war and the loss of so much of his family left Ned with the desire to tuck away in the North forever.
On the subject of Sansa, I truly don’t think Sansa has any desire to be a queen just for the sake of being a queen or holding power just for the sake of power. After all her experiences, it looks to me that Sansa’s primary desire is the safety and security of her family, including Jon. I think that was one of the purposes of Sansa’s arc – she dreamed of fairy tale romance and royal life as a little girl, was bored by her settled life with her family at Winterfell, and now after all this hell (and the hell each of these characters has gone through), the loss of her mother, the loss of her father, the loss of so much, her main desire is her family and her home. I can’t imagine Sansa (or Jon or Arya or the 10% of Bran that’s not a tree) reverting to childhood fantasies after everything they’ve gone through. I likewise can’t see Sansa putting any sort of power or inheritance above her family.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Samwell sitting on the IT would be a meme. Lyanna Mormont would be a meme. Gendry as well. Anyone who the audience isn’t invested in would be a joke. Arya’s a little badass assassin and she wouldn’t even know how to sit in that chair. I’m saying that out of all the characters besides Dany and Jon, Sansa is the least laughable when I imagine anyone sitting up there. Apart from maybe Tyrion. Yes, a lot of people dislike Sansa but you have to admit there aren’t really any ”ruler” type characters left in the show. She is.
I’m also not saying Sansa would like to rule the 7 kingdoms, it’s just that she would be the only one left for it to make sense.
That would be funny because he was chosen KitN based on his being a Stark among other things. Even if a bastard Stark. His bending the knee wouldn’t count if he’s really no Stark. He cannot put the Starks in perpetuity servitude to himself and Dany as Targaryens, as that promise has to be made by the ruling Stark. Basically if the girls say he’s no Stark, the bending of the knee is null and void. The North was not his to give.
I’m taking a wild guess and say they’ll stick with him being a Stark first and foremost. ☺️
🤗 Loved the teaser, now can’t wait for the trailer. And I don’t Jon’s statue is meant to look like a old Jon. Possibly the grayish colored beard is what ages stoned Jon.
This is how I want it to end.
Jon or Dany or both ruling KL and Dragonstone.
Gendry the Stormlands.
Sansa the North.
Tyrion the West.
Robyn the East.
Samwell the South.
Yara or Theon the II.
Dorne whatever.
It’s impossible for a statue of Jon to look exactly like he does because:
His very sparse facial hair cannot be sculpted in such a way that it is realistic, so the end result appears as though he has a full beard. Similar to the way they cannot accurately depict Sansa’s braids.
It’s a medieval statue, not an Instagram photo.
Can we move on from this? 🤦🏼♂️
Apollo,
Yeah lol, IMO none of them statues look like who they are supposed to depict so it’s like whatever..
I’m not going to concern myself with the statues and what they look like, just as we had no reason to concern ourselves with the Hall of Faces promo with everyone’s face. I’m pretty confident that at no time in the final season will we see any of those statues… because they won’t actually exist on the show.
Clob,
Of course we won’t- they’re clearly a metaphor. I’m amazed that so many people don’t get this 🤷🏼♂️
This harkens back to “which characters are on the burning Bolton crosses?” from season 6 speculation. It spawned an entire off-season of debate and it turned out to be absolutely nothing.
I enjoy theorizing, but the over scrutinizing of everything gets tiresome for me.
At least it’s doing what they wanted to achieve, creating buzz. The teaser on their official channel alone has averaged about 500k views per hour over the last ~20 hours. 😀
I did consider those two, but that’s…..two. I think Mormont is high-born and got lucky to score a desk job. Aemon mostly stayed in his library treating ailments and aged out that way. I bet there’s a lot of attrition among the rangers and builders etc.
Night’s Watch is subject to wolves, bears and Wildlings… then there’s illness, loneliness and injury. I wonder why Benjen was really up there. Is it REALLY because of choice and tradition? The NW had become a penal colony, despite what the Starks say.
Plus, Jon DID die at the Wall.
And this is what I mean about Jon getting caught up in Stark dark traditions while not really being a Stark. At no time has Jon ever been given a choice about his identity. He has been denied both the names his parents gave to him. Jon doesn’t really belong at the Wall and fate seems to conspire to thrust him away from it and toward his real heritage, which is leadership…and is Targaryen.
Jon’s direwolf had silver fur and ruby red eyes….Targ colours. It’s like his whole world keeps screaming YOU’RE NOT A STARK!
There is a chance Jon will be angry at Ned for lying to him so long. I mean, it looks kinda’ suspicious that Ned’s best friend Robert murdered Jon’s father, then Ned kept Robert on the throne by hiding the true heir, and worked to place Stannis on the throne after Robert died. I know Ned made hard choices, but it looks highly suspicious. Remember Jon lamenting to Tyrion that he was the only one who told him the truth about what the Wall was really like? Jon doesn’t belong up there.
How will he feel about all that’s been taken from him? Then maybe Jon winds up with a Stark shit sandwich, in exchange.
The Bastard,
Hahaha
Absolutely dude!
Dude, chill don’t piss in peeps cereal, m-key? They haven’t had cereal in a very long time! Let the other dude and dudettes theorize. They are not mounting an affront to you for goodness’s sake. They are enjoying themselves.
He’s obviously living the longest (old Jon statue) and Sansa and Arya die young. To quote someone upthread:
I’m amazed that so many people don’t get this 🤷♀️
Sister Kisser,
I think you might be confused by the Avengers..😉
Che,
Quick response – I do not know if fire wights can have children. I do not know much about the undead at all. In the long run, I would be surprised if an undead character continued to lead the living. My bias is that the undead have a specific short-term purpose. Like Beric said.
I am not sure what you mean by “we all”. I know lots of people on the internet do think so. I do not assume that there will be any baby. Yes, I heard numerous mentions of baby and then I saw Daenerys having sex. It could mean she will get pregnant. Well, the sex alone would normally be sufficient. The writing on GOT has become a sorry thing but it is grade school level stuff to mention baby repeatedly to foreshadow a pregnancy as “we all” believe. Sure she could be pregnant – she had sex. Another character declared pregnancy and I do not remember any mentions of baby beforehand – alas, sex seemed to work anyway.
R+J tells what we want I suppose. Well, we knew he was Lyanna’s kid for some time. R+L=J tells me that Jon is Lightbringer as Rhaeger believed he needed a son for a special purpose. Rhaeger already had legitimate heirs to the throne via Elia – he was not trying for a Targ king. However, he believed he needed a special child for a special purpose from some prophecy. I think that Rhaeger was the AA and Jon the Lightbringer. Jon is reanimated to fulfil that purpose. That is my take. But I suppose Season 8 will fill out the story.
Sorry, not a quick as I hoped!
Apollo,
😱 Sorry I brought up Jon’s statue. Moving on lol
😘wallers see u when the trailer drops!
TormundsWoman,
Jon is dead already- how can he “live the longest”?
Nutter is directing episodes 1,2 and 4; Miguel is directing 3 and 5 and D&D are directing 6
Apollo,
Just because he died a while back, doesn’t mean he ain’t living now. Fact is he’s having more sex than Ser Friendzone. Are you telling me Dany has a corps fetish thingy?! :p
It wouldn’t be that strange if it turns out former dead Jon outlives everyone. Well with the possible exception of Bran.
Anon,
Ned never lied to Jon. He never told him (in the manner of Darth Vader) “Jon, I’m your daddy-o”. In the show, Ep2S1, he tells him “You May not have my name but You have my blood” which is 100% correct!
I am not Ned’s biggest fan but the way he committed to keep his promise to his dying sister is by far (for me at least) his most endearing act.
ramses,
See ya in one month! 🙊
Ironies abound! That’s some potential conflict for the final season if there’s time to play it out on screen. They better come to that realization after Dany saves them.
Personally, I don’t see the problem. They aligned with Robert and he was a terrible King; apparently, they thought it was a mutually beneficial relationship, not servitude.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you, Adriana.
Guys, by all means speculate away, but I think the feather probably just symbolizes the end of the series. Robert put the feather in Lyanna’s hand in the first episode of the first season. It was the audience’s introduction to the story of Jon. Now that moment is finally bearing fruit, and all the misunderstandings tied up in Robert’s narrative of Lyanna are falling. It’s Chekov’s feather.
It’s a game bird feather, incidentally – a pheasant or something like that. That blunt, wide shape and the spotted markings are characteristic.
You’re right, Roberto. Despite that, I’d still like to argue, but I’ve been on the internet all day and have run out of steam….and words.
Too bad Littlefinger is dead… He was the only one who could accommodate such an inclination. He was a purveyor of beauty and discretion, both equally important.
Mango,
Mango,
I agree that we know very little about them as (correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not sure on this), all we have to go on is a quick GRRM quote about Book!Beric being a fire wight? However, it would be very surprising if an undead being can have children, mainly from the symbolic sense (forgetting the biology for a moment) – how could something that is dead an reanimated by fire create a life? Purely my own opinion, but that would be stupid.
I do agree that Jon has been brought back for a purpose, but I don’t agree that this purpose will mean he has to be sacrificed in the Great War. My personal belief is that there has been so much development in his character, back story and through dreams/visions in the books foreshadowing what may be hints to his future, that for him to die would be a huge waste, but then I will admit I am a big Jon fan, so that is probably colouring my view of his importance/future.
By ‘we all’ I meant the general consensus here at WOTW; obviously, no one knows yet. While I do agree that the foreshadowing was clumsy (I feel it’s quite degrading to refer to it as grade-school and I definitely disagree with that assertion), I don’t feel that would make it unlikely that Dany will indeed have a baby next season. I was watching the commentary for the Dragon and the Wolf the other day and at one point (I believe it’s in the dragon pit Dany-Jon conversation) Dany says “I can’t have children” and D&D chortle, “That’s what you think.” Either they are trolling us or they intended for it to be very obvious that she would fall pregnant with Jon’s baby.
That is an interesting (and very valid) way to view the significance of R+L=J and one I hadn’t thought too much about before – I like it. The thing is though, if they were going to take that angle, then why legitimise his birth by having R+L marry? Simply being Rhaegar’s son would have been enough. I would be highly surprised (an disappointed) if D&D have invented Jon being born in wedlock to R+L; I very much hope that this will align with the final books, as it carries such significance and changes a great deal. I really hope it isn’t purely an invention to ensure more drama between key characters in S8 and that it plays a part in GRRM’s master plan and endgame as well.
(I tried to get really clever with quoting your message in chunks and responding to each part, but I messed it up and then edited it and then it ended up being viewed as spam – so here is attempt II.)
It sounds horrible the way I wrote it, I know it. But that was what the Stark girls think now and I was using their POV (well more Sansa than Arya). I think it’s different if / when the girls come to know Dany and her people that place their trust in them. The serve someone is not horrid if you want to do that. Arya and Sansa right now are not inclined but they’ll see that Jon was not wrong. Dany will be a good ruler. And she’s willing to listen.
I’m not considering Ned bending the knee to Bobby, because he never thought to be a king apart. He never thought to have the North apart. Robb, Jon, Sansa are a different generation and different animal, even if they are Ned’s kids.
I think the closest you’d come would be Thorren. And everyone thought bad of his decision too.
Juri,
Lol all the likes! I rewatched season one last week and that particular detail in Peter’s delightful war of tactics and words with Varys HAS caught my attention 😳
Che,
Yes, GRRM and D&D certainly have a good story going. Let us see how the journey pans out!
As to the legitimacy issue, I assume he would have had to rape Lyanna if he did not marry her. It would surprise me if he was prepared to do that. I think the prophecy of son meant son in his line of heirs. Bastards are not recognized as sons that way.
I did not mean to insult D&D, they have done a very good job all round given the lack of book material at the end.
Interesting conversations – that is why this show is so popular!
stefan666,
That’s the thing. I don’t see Sansa as a “ruler” type. I see her as more of the pawn that is often manipulated by others. The ones you called memes, like Lyanna & Sam have actually stepped forward and made power moves on their own. Sure Sansa has the name but D&D have done a poor job showing she’s got the game…
Now I know Sam won’t rule but check his resume: Showed courage by killing a white walker and Thenn. Took a beating & was ready to die to defend Gilly’s honor. Brought Gilly back to Castle Black against the NW’s laws & used the words of the NW pledge to get her to stay. Very bold and shrewd moves. Spoke up and nominated Jon for command of the NW. If not for him Jon never would have been commander.
Stood up to his abusive father. Went against the Citadels orders and risked everything to cure Jorah Mormont. Left when he realized they were dragging their feet and wouldn’t listen to his warnings. Loved a wildling child that wasn’t his. Now that’s what I call growth. Sam grew from a coward to a man of strong conviction & leadership.
Now please list me Sansa’s resume in comparison to show this growth that she’s gone through to deserve to lead Westeros? I assure you that list will pale in comparison to Sam’s. All of her great accomplishments were never shown on screen but were told to us by Sophie & D&D in the post episode discussions and interviews. Sam’s growth has been tangible and real.
If it’s a meme for him to lead it’s bad comedy for Sansa to lead at the end. Now if you want to say she marries and becomes a Queen to someone’s King then fine. But her leading alone is a meme of all memes. All name & no game. Yet people criticize Dany for thinking it’s her “right to rule”… Bad comedy indeed.
Anon,
Completely understand.
I wish you good fortune in the wars to come
Aegon the IceDragon,
It’s not about deserving, it’s about what’s likely to happen. Robert Baratheon was a fool, and Joffrey, Tommen and Cersei certainly didn’t deserve their titles. Sam is a great character and I love him too, but in spite of all his feats he is still a ”small” character. You may say it’s sad but in reality and in the show that’s how it works. Sansa could have done even less than she did and it would still count as more because she has THAT name. Like it or not, she is one of the most important characters right now, and Sam, while more likeable than her, is as important as Gilly at this point in the story.
Mango,
I’ve figured whether one believes the story has been heading towards a coupling of Jon and Daenerys resulting in an offspring depends on an individual’s interpretation of things written in the books and spoken on the show.
Even before all of the children and heir ‘hints’ in S7 I’d been thinking that the two would join and conceive a child as I got deep into the books. I don’t know what the importance of said baby is or if it’s simply part of the “Spring” at the end. I’ve just felt like it is going to happen. I do believe that Daenerys is menstruating again in her last chapter, that whatever curse Mirri Maz put on her is breaking or wearing off. There was a lot more written about it than the show covered, but mentioning it more lately I believe is simply a reminder. There has also been a lot written and spoken about Jon and him never having a family (as a NW), while at the same time he doesn’t seem happy with that notion. I don’t know… I’m just one that believes that’s part of the story.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Let me start the list for Sansa. (I am not a big Sansa fan but she does not always get the regard she is due.)
She insisted on building an army to regain Winterfell. She “hired” Jon to do it! Jon was on his way south even after having seen the AOTD. He was about to abandon Edd and others in the North (with good reason after being stabbed!). This led to Jon’s first within Westeros (and not AOTD) intervention – Sansa’s intervention actually.
She put together a winning alliance by using her relationships to get another army. She also sent for the Tully army but Blackfish refused. Without her leadership, Ramsey would still be Warden of the North.
Jon is focused on the AOTD. Sansa pays attention to Westeros and the North. Their interests now overlap as the AOTD approaches.
Clob,
All good. You could be right!
But they aren’t only two old guys around, there are a bunch of older guys among the ranks of the Night’s Watch. Qhorin Halfhand is no spring chicken either, Denys Mallister, Alliser Thorne is an older guy at 50, etc. Mormont reflects that many of his men are “sullen boys and tired old men.” And Mormont, as Lord Commander, has had to go through trials and tribulations to get to his job, to be voted into his job. Mormont was on the front-lines, he died after he was mutinied against on a ranging. He didn’t just come to Castle Black and get the title.
Sure, the south views it as a penal colony – doesn’t mean it’s not a noble calling that still has a purpose to fulfill or that the North views it any less favourably. Ned views King’s Landing as a den of vipers, schemers, and assholes. Jon ends up finding a place and role in the Night’s Watch, perhaps even fulfilling a prophecy (don’t know yet), and regardless of what the south thinks of it, the North genuinely holds the Night’s Watch in high regard and generations of Starks have still joined. I won’t get into any theories centering around why Benjen joined the Watch – that’s a topic probably better left to be explored by AltShiftX – but yeah, I think Benjen joined out of a sense of duty and tradition. He was a second son, it makes sense, and the Starks view the Night’s Watch as an honourable calling. To me, Jon is a Stark regardless of a legal name. Genetically, he’s as much a Stark as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon and culturally, he’s 100% Stark. In my mind, a name doesn’t erase this.
As for wolves, bears, and wildlings, every other place in the North has these threats, including Winterfell. Wolves and bears are in the forests, wildlings coming south… That’s not exclusive to the Wall. And it’s nothing Jon hasn’t been trained for.
Illness, loneliness, and injury – every place is this world is subject to illness, loneliness, injury. I doubt you can swing a dead cat without hitting a character who hasn’t experienced at least 2/3. Even if Jon didn’t join the Night’s Watch, he’d face all of this and other types of danger. Even a known Targaryen, Dany, who was across the Narrow Sea, experienced deep loneliness, longing, injury, illness, loss, sorrow – all of that. This isn’t exclusive to the Wall.
And Robb died at the Red Wedding alongside his mother. It’s not like Ned is Bran and could see into the future that Mormont would be mutinied against, Jon would be thrust into his position, a ton of crap would go down, and Jon himself would be mutinied against. If Ned could see into the future, I think he’d be one depressed dude.
And Ned’s decision saved Jon’s life. Likewise, Jon was in a leadership role in the Night’s Watch. Maybe he’s destined to be king of everything, who knows, but Jon had a significant role to play at the Wall in bringing people together against the true threat to humanity. Sure, there’s a good chance Jon will be angry that the truth was withheld from him but if Ned didn’t do this and protect Jon by claiming him as his own bastard son, Jon could have been a dead royal like Rhaegar’s other two kids Aegon and Rhaenys or living the life Dany experienced – on the run from assassins with an abusive brother, having known no place long enough to become home. I can’t see Jon being angry that he didn’t get to experience those alternatives. Rhaegar was already dead by the time Jon was born, Robert already had the throne and was hunting down Targaryens.
And I don’t doubt that the truth will be agonizing for Jon to learn but I don’t think it will be for the reasons you’ve cited as I doubt he’ll suspect Ned as being part of some plot. Ned sacrificed his own honour, his name, strained his marriage, risked everything to save his nephew, the only son of his sister. I think Jon will be in anguish because Ned isn’t his blood father – Jon puts great regard in being Ned Stark’s son and his Stark blood. So much of his identity is centered on that. I think that’ll be the agonizing part for Jon.
Huh! To me, his direwolf resembling the bone-white and blood red eyes of the weirwood screamed, “YOU ARE A STARK!” 🙂
Jon may accept the other side of his identity, yes, but it doesn’t make him any less of a Stark. It doesn’t change who Jon is or his history. The magic of his Valyrian blood may be imperative but I can’t see Jon wanting to rule a kingdom after everything and I think that’d be the last thing Ned would want for Jon. Not because he wants to rob Jon, but Ned despises King’s Landing, and life on the Iron Throne seems hellish.
I’d argue destiny did guide Jon to the Wall, as Mormont speculated 😉 After discovering the White Walkers are back and the end of the world is nigh, Jon is at the forefront of the fight against the Long Night and perhaps fulfilling some kind of prophecy. Thanks to his experiences, Jon has managed to unite different peoples in their quest to save humanity: he’s brokered an unprecedented alliance between the wildlings and the North, he’s allied with Dany who has what they need to fight the undead, and if Jon didn’t go to the Wall, none of this would have happened. I’d say it was a good thing Jon headed to the Night’s Watch 🙂
And as I said, I wouldn’t mind an ending where Cersei gets to live and rule as long as it’s written good. There is just no logical way I can see where it would make sense for Sam to be the King of the 7 Kingdoms. There ISN’T a logical way that little Lyanna Mormont would end up on the IT. Whereas I can easily see Sansa stepping up to the game if Jon and Dany die. Again, not because she wants to or deserves it, but because she’s simply the only one that makes sense, storywise, apart from Tyrion.
No he wasn’t! He just meant (though he couldn’t yet say) that Jon was a Stark on his mother’s side. How is that a lie?
My interpretation, I haven’t read all responses:
This trailer explores the Stark siblings Lyanna and Ned and their bond just as much as their children’s bonds.
The feather reminds us of Robert, and his possessive love for his idea of Lyanna, rather than for the girl herself. When she ran away, it wasn’t just to RT, it was away from Robert.
‘Robert’s Rebellion was based on a lie.’
Robert tore the kingdom apart looking for them, Ned joined him – but when his sister told him the truth, Ned didn’t hesitate, he kept her baby safe. He went against his best friend, he hurt his wife.
Cait’s words remind us of the personal cost of keeping Jon’s secret safe, and just how dangerous the secret was – Ned couldn’t even tell her!
It also reminds us of a theme of the show– don’t punish children for the crimes of their parents. And don’t repeat your parents’ mistakes.
Jon is of Stark blood. The direwolves knew it; it is blood and bonds which matter – not changeable ideas like names and ‘bastardary’ and status – when Winter comes and the Pack depends on each to survive.
The feather is blown by the winds of winter, symbolising secrecy being lifted.
Will another rebellion, another war ensue? Perhaps, but not between these siblings.
Jon’s name will change, but he and his place in the pack will not.
If Theon survives his mission to save Yara, I’ll bet that they have him circle around to remind Jon – when Jon finds out about his parentage and is getting all angsty about his identity, because being angsty is what Jon does best – that it is possible to be both a Stark and a Targaryen, just as it is possible to be both a Stark and a Greyjoy.
Indeed. And we have it as canon from the beginning that Lyanna’s statue doesn’t look much like her. Medieval artists didn’t even study human anatomy, and in many cases never actually saw the people they were portraying; their likenesses are notoriously poor. I wouldn’t extrapolate much from this at all.
Firannion,
I wish that for Theon too.
Firannion,
Yeah, I think so too – I did forget that aspect in my previous comments! (One’s stuck in moderation) I also certainly think it’s possible for Jon to be both Stark and Targaryen and reconcile the two sides of his family: the family he knows and that has shaped him and the new half of his identity with the info that fills in all those missing pieces of his personal history. I think Jon will remain who he is in the cultural aspect, his identity issues are a bit different from Theon’s in that Theon feels caught between two families/cultures because he was raised two different ways and Jon has a huge gaping hole in his history because he doesn’t know who his mum is. But yeah, I agree with you – I think this new information will provide answers Jon has always been looking for – even if it does cause him to do what he does best: angst – and he can be both Stark and Targaryen.
I hope Theon survives and rescues his sister – and can give Jon that reminder.
There is also the strong possibility that this “curse” was ineffective from the get-go: merely Mirri Maz Duur’s way of trying to make Dany feel like crap, as revenge for what the Dothraki did to her and her people. Words are wind. And GRRM has explicitly warned us not to take all “prophecies” in his world as verbatim truth.
It’s entirely possible for a fertile woman to go months or years without getting pregnant despite being sexually active; it’s all in the timing. Dany rarely has sex with Hizdahr (in the books, IIRC, he’s more into boys), and Daario could easily have had a low sperm count or something. Lots of otherwise-healthy men do. Boat sex with Jon might just be the instance when all the variables come together (so to speak).
What?
Jon still actually living might be a show only thing. Even though by the book lore, he should just be a zombie on our side. But again, he might not be revived the same way in the books so who knows.
Firannion,
Or it could simply be a symbol of Robert Baratheon. He is the catalyst for so much, but his arrival at Winterfell is what changed everything for the Starks and scattered them to the winds. It changed who they thought they were forever.
Again, this could also tie into identity and how the lies big and small and justifications have had this impact on their lives. Robert goes to the crypts and leaves that feather first thing in Episode 1.1, thinking to himself that Lyanna Stark was the great love of his life and that Rhaegar had kidnapped her and raped her and that the entire war he fought was all justified. But this is all built on lies, all of it, and the journey these three have been on has been built on these lies and what they wrought. But, that journey is what has led them there, confronting death and winter and facing it, and it is what perhaps shapes their response to what is coming.
But am spinning in my own thoughts there, just like everyone else. 🙂
Yay! Sorry to be so late to the party – time difference, work etc.
14.4.2019 is now firmy etched in my calendar! I’ll keep the next six Mondays clear to discuss the latest episode!
What a cool teaser! The Crypts! Yay! I’ve always thought the Crypts of Winterfell are going to be important! This proves it, doesn’t it? DOESN’T IT?
I’ve only watched it about 4 times – but enough to get my tinfoil going, haha! Sorry if everybody’s caught on this (I haven’t had time to read the 298 comments so far) and I’m repeating what everybody’s been saying. So…
Firstly, no Bran. But he’s a tree now, or the three-eyed raven or whatever, so not really a Stark anymore. So we get the last remaining Stark siblings/cousins Jon, Sansa and Arya.
Secondly, the voiceovers from past seasons.
Jon gets two, from Lyanna (“You have to protect him…”) and Ned (“You are a Stark. You might not have my name but you have my blood.”) and Jon pauses/looks back at each statue. Clearly about his secret parentage. But could it be more? Promise me, protect him…
Sansa’s voiceover is Cat “… all this horror that’s come to my family…” while Sansa walks past and barely glances at Cat’s statue and keeps walking – I mean, what did Cat know of the horrors Sansa had to endure partly due to Cat’s well-meant but misguided actions?
The Cat voiceover continues while the camera focuses on Arya. “…is all because I could not love a motherless child.” Arya does not look at any of the statues, just walks on very single-mindedly.
The Stark siblings/cousins meet, confront their dead selves but turn away (= turn to life) to confront a worse death. I liked the way Jon and Arya both drew their swords and stepped forward to protect their non-combatant sister/cousin. Big brother Jon wasn’t gong all gung-ho “Step back, little sister, I’m going to protect you all, all by myself, like I always try to do because that’s how D&D have written my character!”
Now, Jon’s voiceovers were obviously about his parentage and Sansa’s and Arya’s were generic warnings. But on my second watch I started creating some tinfoil and the third watch firmed it up.
So here goes. Full tinfoil.
Jon’s first voiceover is a plea from a mother, dying in childbed, to protect a Targaryen prince. Could that be Dany imploring Jon to protect their son? Promise me, Jon… I’ve always been more of the mind that Jon dies, Dany survives, but after all the baby hints and boat sex last season, plus Dany’s insistence the dragons are the only children she’ll ever have… Well, if you die in childbed, you don’t really get to have that baby, do you?
Jon’s second voiceover is Ned, not my name but my blood. Clue to Jon’s parentage but also a reaffirmation of his Stark-ness. An affirmation of boatbaby’s Stark-ness?
Sansa’s voiceover is a reminder to her of the horrors not only she but all her family suffered, mayhaps a warning not to tread a similar path to Cat.
Arya’s voiceover is more interesting. “[…all this horror that’s come to my family] is all because I could not love a motherless child.” What motherless child could Arya not love? The boatbaby? Remember, in S7, Arya was ready to chop off the heads of the King in the North’s important allies that didn’t agree with his policy, questioning their loyalty to House Stark. But perhaps she has an idealised idea of Jon.
She thinks she’s fiercy loyal to House Stark – but is she? Is she more loyal to her favourite brother Jon, to the point of being totes OK with him giving the North to this new Targaryen Queen?
What about House Stark and the North? What about when it turns out Jon is a Targ, rightful heir to the Iron Throne, maybe compelled to think beyond House Stark and the North? Could Arya love a motherless child, the Targ boatbaby, or is there potential trouble there?
Just spitballing here, the Crypt teaser brought out all these thoughts because the camera was on Arya during the “because I couldn’t love a motherless child” voiceover. Interesting choice. Something along those lines could be an interesting, character growing conflict of the human heart for Arya. She can’t be just all ASNAWP all the time, that’s uninteresting.
Maybe there’s no boatbaby, maybe it’s Jon who dies and Dany who survives, and I’ve just got tangled in tinfoil about a one-minute teaser, haha. 😀 Also, sorry for an overly long post, though I doubt many read it to the end, haha!
It has another 18 million views on the official GoT FB page.
talvikorppi,
Dany also is a motherless child.
Also Tyrion.
Dee Stark,
I suppose you don’t believe in appetizers, either.
😉
Good points. So Arya should love those motherless children as well..?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
ooo nice
Over 300 posts just from this teaser. I can’t even imagine what the discussion will be like after episode 8-1…
I just thought of how cool it would be when Jon and Bran met and the first thing Bran says to him is:
”The next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother.” Episode 1 ends.
LOL I just gave myself chills
Or the trailer!
Jack Bauer 24,
Oh yeah. That first. Gonna be insane.
Did anyone else notice the statue of what looks like a large man just before the ice cloud comes? Doesn’t look like anyone else has commented on it, unless I missed it…
Was wondering if it’s supposed be someone we recognize —Hodor or Sam maybe? I couldn’t make it out well enough to tell. Or even GRRM, haha—I would love it if there’s a statue-cameo of GRRM in the crypts 😀
Roberto,
I have been pushing a “Branakin” theory (Bran goes bad) here for a long time- though I am less inclined to believe we will see that outcome now than I was some years ago. I suppose IF it were to happen now, it would have to be some type of feedback loop between young 3ER and Old Knight’s King. And timeloops have been established with Hoh the Doh.
I am kindof tongue in cheek about this idea at this point. Put it this way- I wouldn’t be surprised if they go this direction, but I’m also not expecting it at this point.
Also- while I like the Marvel stuff, I am not sure which direction they will take with Endgame, or whatever they are calling Avengers 4. In the original infinity guantlet arc, there were major players that haven’t even been formally introduced in the MCU yet (AW, Living Tribunal, etc…)
Mel,
Isn’t he the feather?
This looks like it’s supposed to be one of Bran’s visions perhaps, since the feather drop…
Juri,
Not really what I meant sorry I was unclear. I don’t think Ned would ever have changed Jons name even if Cat asked him to. When you are asked to raise someone’s child if something happens to them you do it to the best of your ability, knowing you can never take a parents place. But a family member or friend would never change that child’s name to theirs. Just my opinion. I don’t think Ned had a long term plan for Jon other than keeping him safe and seeing what the future held later.
From the person that ASNAWP originated from you have to accept that yes, yes she can!! 😊
And admit it… you had to think it was pretty cool when she drew her sword along with Jon.
Sansa’s hair is a combination of Catelyn and Lyanna’s hairstyles, and she’s been wearing it like that since S7 and has been wearing braids since the first season. Some folks are talking like Dany invented braids. Or they’re trying to insert Dany into a trailer where she isn’t. This trailer was about House Stark.
More Ned/Cat and Jon/Sansa parallels, damn they just keep adding up. Lyanna is a mix of Arya/Sansa like many Stark fans figured out from the beginning. Arya has Lyanna’s looks and wild behavior but Sansa has her traits too when it comes to loving songs and princes.
Roberto,
👍👍
Countdown clock!!!!!!! And we all know what that means: we will finally see an army of Silent Sister wights surround the Red Keep and take down Cercei, the mystery of the spiral will be solved, and we will, finally, learn Pod’s secret. Roll on S8.
cos alpha,
Yes, good one
Also Gendry has been motherless for a long time
1st episode shows King B with a feather, in the crypt, by Lyanna’s statue. B is the one who started & finished the rebellion for her
Feather is shown again last season
Gendry survived Cersei, Stannis, & Melisandre, then brought back by D&D last season
Tease showing feather, in crupts, with Lyanna’s voiceover
I’m very curious what role Gendry plays & can’t wait to see him reunite with Arya
This trailer was also about Jon’s parentage being a dangerous truth and the Stark sisters will have to protect him now. And no I dont mean the NK.
Firannion,
Can I get an amen?! 🙏🏻 👏 😋
Sorry if someone has already mentioned this but I taped TD at 2am Monday hoping the teaser would be on and zilch not a sausage so last night I sat waiting patiently at 8.55pm again waiting and still NO teaser. Has any other Brit seen it on tv?😠
Just listened to Kit Harington on Zoe Ball radio show this morning and he told her HBO sent him the statue and it’s in his garden shed👍
That inspires a thought for an alternative to the Valonqar that I wouldn’t mind seeing: Cersei being killed by a wightified Septa Unella (suitably disfigured by her time under Frankengregor’s care). It could be a fantastic moment of Grand Guignol horror. And exquisitely ironic, especially if we are reminded in the opening flashback scenes of Cersei telling Unella ‘My face is the last thing you’ll ever see.’
Carole H,
They should auction off those teaser statues for charity. I’d pay good money to see that Arya statue in my living room.
I bet they could get 10’s of thousands for that thing. Some rich superfans would bid it to the clouds. 🙂
talvikorppi,
Notwithstanding our (playful) past pro- and con-ASNAWP exchanges, it looks like you and I (and others) had the same positive reaction to the teaser’s gender-neutral portrayal of Jon and Arya as they drew their swords and stepped forward to face the unseen threat together:
talvikorppi, 1/14/19, 7:36 pm:
…. I liked the way Jon and Arya both drew their swords and stepped forward to protect their non-combatant sister/cousin. Big brother Jon wasn’t gong all gung-ho “Step back, little sister, I’m going to protect you all, all by myself, like I always try to do because that’s how D&D have written my character!”
_________
Ten Bears, 1/13/19, 10:36 pm:
“…. I liked it that when the three turned around to face the unseen threat, Jon treated Arya as a fellow warrior and not as a defenseless girl.”
_________
Flayed Potatoes, 1/14/19, 12:43 am:
“Jon and Arya in the same frame…
I’m ready!”
________
Ten Bears, 1/14/19, 2:25 am:
“I don’t care if it’s in a few seconds in a teaser. I’ve been waiting for this for what seems like an eternity, ever since this scene way back when in S1e2.
Jon gives Arya Needle
(starts at 1:43)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFdu_lvCTJA
Just watching them draw their swords together, standing side by side ready to fight… I couldn’t have asked for a better visual bookend.”
_________
Enharmony1625, 1/14/19, 9:01 am
“Same! Oh so very much same! When I saw the back of Arya a few seconds into the teaser, I got mad chills. Arya and Jon drawing their swords together is basically GoT porn. 🙂”
Nice! I thought Sophie said they couldn’t send hers?
A couple of months ago, I bid way more than I could really afford for the autographed enlarged Arya stamp on the eBay auction. I got outbid in the last five seconds by an experienced “sniper.” The fiscally responsible, “adult” me was relieved that I wouldn’t have to make a purchase I couldn’t possibly justify. My “real” self still wishes that framed poster-sized Arya stamp with Maisie’s signature was on my wall to look at every day.
Firannion,
You’ve got a twisted mind. And I love it!
https://ew.com/tv/2019/01/15/game-of-thrones-season-8-trailer-showrunners/
Sounds like David and Dan don’t want to do a trailer, but we will get one. Sounds like it might still be a while though.
3eyes,
I don’t think Pod’s secret will ever be revealed, to the consternation of millions of men and women all over the world. (Though perhaps it was the same instinctive technique another neophyte employed, which Ygritte called ~ “that thing you did with your mouth”).
However, I think “the mystery of the spiral” will be solved – and has in fact already been solved if several seemingly incidental details and images sprinkled throughout the first 63 episodes were in fact deliberately embedded clues.
Also, Hibberd doesn’t think we’ll get a trailer during SB because GoT doesn’t need to build awareness like Westworld did. Why spend 5 million for a 30 second ad he said.
https://twitter.com/JamesHibberd/status/1085213445342089221
Ten Bears,
I missed that! What do the spirals and signs made by the WW mean?
And if this is already clear – are the drawings on the cave wall at Dragonstone: (i) a prediction of the future by an unknown artist; (ii) OR are the drawing a historical record indicating that this WW event is a repeat of something that has happened before/or that we are watching past events? I never understood that?
Mango,
Consider that Robert wasn’t the one to actually kill the mad king…it was Jamie Lannister, one of the Kingsguard sworn to the protection of the king. Jamie killing the king, as morally correct as it might have been in order to save thousands of other lives, was technically treachery. This means that Robert’s entire reign was questionable in terms of legitimacy, and that perhaps Jon’s claim is actually quite strong.
Just another take to consider 🙂
talvikorppi,
I quite enjoyed you excellent and full description, very accurate observations. About the tinfoil, some parts I agree with. But: Arya’s always adopted urchins and waifs (especially in the books, where she even thinks in terms of forming a pack) and even offered to be Gendry’s family (with puppy love overtones!). She’s protected and avenged waifs and strays as much as her own family. More important, when Jon was treated as a bastard outcast by Catelyn (and treated indifferently by Sansa), Arya and Jon were each other’s self. Show Arya always felt her mother was disappointed in her, and while wandering the Riverlands was longing for reunion and forgiveness. But the Red Wedding happened. So I think she’s a motherless child as well. That explains why she responded so well to the bit of mothering she got from Lady Crane. Arya is not the one who needs a warning about that.
One minor thing. About her ‘chopping off heads’ comment–she has *never* killed people who weren’t trying to harm her or hadn’t committed a crime). She was playing the Game of Faces with SAnsa and deliberately provocative. Arya correctly concluded Sansa wanted power and was currying the lords’ favour. The script confirms this: “Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.”
Have you ever seen Joss Whedon’s Cabin in the Woods? My absolute favorite moment in that whole insane movie is the point where the honcho from the control room who always bets on the Merman suddenly realizes that the Merman is about to be the cause of his own demise. All he says is “Oh, no…” in this little disappointed voice, but with implications of “That’s so tacky. I’m the boss here. Why does my death have to be tacky instead of epic?” I’d be pleased to see Cersei meet a similar fate.
Jack Bauer 24,
i agree with D&D.. wish they didn’t have to do one
Wolfish,
hahahaha I do!!
its different LOL
Clob,
Same here. A child would be the perfect symbol of hope, a symbol for a new beginning, “spring” so to speak. And wasn’t it Cersei who said: “Whoever wins this war can raise a dynasty that last for 1000 years.” ? No child – no dynasty, and I think we all know that her child will never be born.
I know there are a lot of People out there who would support a full doom and gloom ending of this Story, I am not one of them. An epic story like this has to end with at least a little bit of hope, otherwise it would have been all for nothing. Or to re-phrase a quote by G.K. Chesterton: “I don’t need stories to tell me that misery exists, but because to tell me that there is also light and love and all the shit would be worth it in the end.”
And there are soooooo many hints in the books, alone the word choice for the “prophecy”. English is not my mother tongue, so correct me if I am wrong, but “when” is more implying it is possible to happen than an “if”, right?
Aside from that: Alone for Jon there are so many connections to children, that it is hard to not picture him with one of his own. In Season 1 Aemon’s words to him: “What is honour compared to the feel of a newborn son in your arms?”, in Season 2 he is the only one who asks about Craster’s sons and follows him to see what he does to them, in Season 3, Ygritte’s now notorious words to him, which were meant as a jab towards his innocence; nicely mirrored by Melisandre in Season 5 after she told him: “There is power in you. Power to make light, power to make life (!), but you deny it.” In Season 4 he kind of becomes a father figure for Olly and in Season 7 there was so much baby-talk, it was almost too much on the nose. Adding to that: The part “I will never father children” is the only part of his Night’s Watch vow he didn’t break so far… So yes, I, too, strongly believe that one of the last pictures of this whole story will be Jon holding a child of his own in his arms…
ThronesBone,
Well, if you want to go all the way back then really the Targs had no moral right to a Westeros dynasty in the first place. They invaded, conquered, terrorized and set up a hundred-year dictatorship over the Westerosi. Yes, terror. The Westerosi were forced into bondage by use of terror of death by dragon fire. Those that did not bow down and agree to domination were burnt to a terrible death.
Finally, someone killed their horrific asses! Jaime did it before Robert – but it was coming anyway. A Westerosi saw the terrible threat to the citizens and had seen enough. Sword out, dead Targ.
From your account, it is Jaime not Robert then that should have taken the crown? Is that your argument?
It is pretty unbelievable the number of fans that think the Targs had and have a moral right to rule. They conquered and ruled by war and force. So yes, Daenerys stands the best chance of becoming Queen. She has the firepower to do it.
Lady Stoneheart makes an appearance!!!!!!
Johanna van Locchum,
If both Jon and Daenerys die then a baby would mean that the Targs do not go extinct. I do not know if they have relatives in their homeland. That would be about it as far as upside. Of course, the child is welcome to settle peacefully in Westeros – but not to take up the people burning horrors of his ancestors.
Mango:
“What do the spirals and signs made by the WW mean?”
In “The Door,” the 3ER leads Bran in a vision to the center of a multi-spiral megalith in ancient Westeros, where one of the First Men has been gagged and bound to a wierwood tree. Bran watches one of the Children of the Forest drive an obsidian blade into the man’s heart, turning the man’s eyes bright blue.
(This all happens near a “mountain in the shape of an arrowhead,” BTW.)
Ginevra,
And so did you! Pleasure to see you here, G.
Welcome back, Lady G. I hope you’ll be joining our chats.
Mango,
I’m not just picking on your responses to debate, I promise 😂, you just say some interesting things that I disagree with.
I used to feel the same about the Targs and their belief in their right to rule a country they terrorised through dragon-fire and unfairly conquered – unfairly in that they had a supernatural weapon of mass destruction that no one could defend against. However, the more I thought about it and the nature of the world GRRM has developed, the more it became clear to me that all those former kings of those former kingdoms probably got to be where they were through conquest at some point in history. It was the name of the game. The Targs had an unfair advantage, but which of those former kings would honestly stand up and say they wouldn’t use a resource like that if they had one?
Also, the Targs are somewhat right when they say the Iron throne is theirs by right as they were the ones who formed the kingdom of the 7 Kingdoms in the first place. It didn’t exist prior to their arrival so I can see why they feel it ought to be ruled by them. However, they are also ignoring the rules of the game in that they were defeated by conquest. So actually, Dany should stop her rhetoric of her “right” to rule and do as Daario suggested, focus on conquest – it is how thrones are won in this world after all.
Leuf,
I have a theory that, due to their loyal nature and links to the first people, maybe the Stark dead fight on the family side when resurrected…
Mango,
I saw one spiral. It was when the Dorthraki riders surrounded Dany after Drogon flew her to an area in the hills outside of Mereen… right after the attack in the fighting pits and she rode Drogon for the first time.
One of the Wight spirals was made of horse body parts.
Then there was sort of undefined spirals… At Dany’s Mhysa moment when the slaves hoist her above their heads. And when Jon fights his way out of the stampeding fighters at the battle of the bastards.
Exactly! Dragons are advanced technology and any one of those lords would have used them if they had them. From what I’ve read, The Targs didn’t burn people and castles indiscriminately. They used them on the battlefield. And I think it’s interesting that Dany is both an Heir and a conqueror…. after all, no one can press any claim to a throne without having force to back up that claim.
Here’s my theory:
Rhaegar is the Night King. The red stones weren’t rubies, they were red dragonglass and when Robert sank his hammer into Rhaegar’s chest on the Trident, the bits of dragonglass embedded in his armour went into his heart and changed him into a Wight.
Ever since, Rhaegar has been trying to get back to the woman he loves. He’s on a warpath against the Starks who just wouldn’t let them be. Maybe he knows that his baby was born and survived, maybe not. Maybe he knows that Lyanna is dead, or maybe not. If she’s dead, he means to raise her from the dead. He’s at war against Robert and his kin and means to reclaim the throne that was stolen from him and his family.
This is a love story.
The things we do for love!
Really? I don’t think I’ve seen Jon in a single scene with a weirwood tree. That’s definitely a Bran thing. Maybe the bookreader might initially connect Ghost’s colouring to the weirwood, but once we find out that Jon is Targ, it becomes obvious what Ghost represents.
Jon blossoms wherever he is planted. It’s said that Rhaegar was good at anything he set his hands to, and Jon takes after his father. I would not call Nedd a good manager or leader, but Jon is definitely a talented leader.
The truth will not be denied! There are people acting all the while to suppress and deny the truth; but the truth makes itself known, nevertheless.
There are at least two truths being denied in this story:
1) Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna’s legitimate son and heir to the Iron throne.
2) Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, and were married, and produced a son.
All of Neds blathering on about Jon having Stark blood was NOT the truth. Hinting to Jon about his mother, but not about his father, denies a much greater truth. Then Ned went to the city and promptly got himself killed. I don’t think he lasted even a year down there. Then Jon dies a few years later…. and that would be that.
But, as I said, the truth will not be denied. Jon was resurrected and fate conspires to make the truth known to Jon and to everyone else that he is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne and the beloved son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Targaryen.
Here’s another angle on this whole thing:
Ned was about to marry his daughter to the person in line for the Iron Throne: Joffrey. He was about to make Sansa queen of the Iron Throne while secretly having Rhaegar’s son under his roof, then sending him off to a penal colony!
I am not certain if Ned knew at the time that Jon was a legitimate heir; but it’s very likely that Lyanna told him that she and Rhaegar had married. In any event, Ned was acting contrary to the spirit of his sister’s request to “protect him”. He was busy trying to install his own daughter onto the throne alongside his best friends son who murdered Jon’s father and legitimate heir. It’s all highly unethical.
Then he finds out that Joffrey isn’t really Robert’s son! So Ned was in tremendous turmoil in those last days.
Maybe we’ll find out if Ned knew Jon was a legit Targaryen or whatever it is they call Targaryen bastards…. “Fire”?
Anon,
I like Your theory!
He recited his NW vows to the Old Gods at the weirwood beyond the Wall in season 1.
Yep. Doing a rewatch now and I just watched that scene.
Anon,
As others have said, Jon takes his Night’s Watch oaths at the wierwood and this happens in both the show and books. In the books, Jon visits the wierwood a few times and he himself connects Ghost to the colouring of the wierwood tree. Regardless, white and red aren’t the Targaryen colours – the Targaryen colours are black and red while the Targaryen look is silver hair and violet eyes. Ghost shares the colouring of the wierwood tree connected with the mysterious powers of the Old Gods, where the direwolves came from.
I think this is going to have to end with us agreeing to disagree. Ned wasn’t lying to Jon about having Stark blood – Jon does have Stark blood. Ned withholds the truth about Jon’s origins to protect Jon in a time and place where it’s extremely dangerous for anybody with Targaryen blood to exist (see Aegon, Rhaenys, Daenerys, Viserys). Personally, I can’t imagine Ned starting another war to overthrow the current reigning dynasty – especially when the first war he got roped into resulted in the loss of most of his family. He is already risking the lives of everybody and himself by hiding Rhaegar’s son from the current reigning king – and I can’t see him going to extra distance to further risk the lives of his family, including Jon, to start another war for a throne Ned despises.
As for Ned’s death in King’s Landing, he died because he was protecting Sansa. He risked his life and everything else to protect Jon. He walked out on Robert and his wrath when Robert was arranging the assassination of Daenerys and her unborn child. He’s haunted by the brutal deaths of Rhaegar’s two children. I’d say this is more of a theme and motivation with Ned than anything throne-centered, a throne Ned doesn’t much care for.
You’re right, the truth won’t be denied and it’s going to come out – I think Jon having both the magical blood of the Starks and the Targaryens is going to result in something significant and maybe having to do with fulfilling some prophecy, I don’t know. Yet, I personally think that has less to do with the Iron Throne and more to do with the resolution of the Long Night.
I do think there’s a good chance Jon will become a “Stargaryen” in accepting both his Stark and Targaryen sides much like Theon can come to accept he’s both a Greyjoy and a Stark.
As for the rest, well, I’ve already said my piece on that. At the end of the day, it’s YMMV.
cos alpha,
Thank you. If it turns out to be false, I’ll just have to cry myself to sleep…again.
Clob,
Jack Bauer 24,
Adrianacandle,
Right…right. I’d forgotten that scene because it was so fleeting. Surely you all agree that connecting Ghost, and Jon, to the weirwood is misdirected. It’s pretty clear now what the silver fur and red eyes mean.
Bran is the weirwood guy, but he got a normal coloured wolf.
Afraid I can’t agree on that. Plus, if Ghost were silver, he’d be a grey wolf – or have special edition metallic foil fur 😉
::looks around::
Nope, I think you’re the only person here who believes that white + red = Targ.
It’s abundantly clear, in the books at least, that we are meant to associate Ghost with weirwoods. That Jon does not warg into Ghost on the show is merely a budgetary and narrative shortcut on the part of the showrunners. It’s an important link to the First Men and the Old Gods. Jon is much more ice than fire, even if he has some in his DNA.
Adrianacandle,
That’s interesting because Jon has black hair, unlike the typical Targ. The weirwoods seem to be a Stark thing, and sure, Jon would – falsely – associate Ghost with them because all he knows about his identity is that he’s Ned’s son. It’ll be interesting to see if he makes the Ghost association when he finds out who his father really is.
Ned was torn between the truth and loyalty to a friend. It could be that deep in his heart he knew his sister loved Rhaegar. To acknowledge such a thing would have put him crosswise with Robert’s delusions…and his ambitions.
He didn’t have the physical forces to declare war on Robert. I would argue that he didn’t have the emotional forces to do so, either. So he carries on, believing a lie and carrying water for that lie. Then he lost his life and devastated his family.
Beware all ye who deny the Truth! The Gods are watching and they will not like it.
Anon,
Ghost is white though, not silver. He’s not a grey wolf or a metallic coloured wolf (but that would be cool to see – wolf fur all shimmery and sparkly like an Urban Decay eyeshadow ;D) The red and white of the weirwood tree is strongly recognizable (there are a few times when the weirwood pops up in Jon’s scenes – eg. Jon burns Ygritte’s body near the weirwood). Added to that, Ghost and the other magic Stark direwolves seem to come from the Old Gods at the exact right time, in the exact right number, with the exact right gender ratio. The Old Gods are strongly associated with the red and white weirwood tree, Ghost is red and white, the direwolf is a symbol of House Stark… and yeah, there’s no way I can see the connection between Ghost/Stark/weirwood as being a misdirection.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye on this.
Adrianacandle,
If you think the Gods are sending a message in the form of the direwolves, then what message could they send to Jon by sending him a weirwood coloured wolf? Is it the message YOU’RE A STARK?
That wouldn’t be much of a message, considering that Jon already believed he was – but for the name – a Stark. He was raised Stark and told all his life that he was Ned’s bastard son.
That’s why it was a lie when Ned tells him at their parting that he’s a Stark. It isn’t what Ned says, but what Jon hears.
Jon hears things he already knows and believes. He hears that he has Ned’s blood and that it makes him a Stark even though he doesn’t have the Stark Name. Check, check and check. These are all things Jon already believes. So, Ned goes through the motions of hinting to Jon about the truth while leaving him still in the dark.
Ned is claiming Jon for his family while denying him it’s name… and most painfully, denying Jon’s father.
What is Jon to do with this? Should he console himself that he has Stark blood? Should he be grateful for that? That is a significant demotion and downgrade from who Jon truly is!
Anon,
I like your Rhaegar is NK theory/ I have never heard that. I doubt it is true, but it is a cool thought anyway. The things we do for love- well said!
As for Ghost- sorry to jump in here, but he most certainly bears the color of the weirwood tree. The Targ colors are most certainly red and BLACK. I think Ghost, being an albino runt, had more to do with introducing us to Jon’s role in the pack, and the bond the two of them would form.
Remember- Jon is half stark, half Targ. And Ned wouldn’t have known anything about the truth of Lyanna/Rhaegar’s relationship until he found her dying in the Tower. Prior to that moment/ the ONLY word on the street was that she had been kidnapped by the Targ prince.
Anon,
It’s Blackfyre.
Adrianacandle,
Stargaryean! Awesome. You immediately put the song “Stargazer” by Mother Love Bone, into mind. Thank you for that
Anon,
In telling Jon, “you may not have my name, but you have my blood” Ned was hinting at this long-time-coming reveal for the readers.
Or the watchers.
How is that not obvious?
With regards to Jon, Ned had one job. Raise him as his own, protect him. At much sacrifice. But that’s it. That’s why he kept his true parentage a secret. To keep him alive. Pretty straightforward. I don’t think Ned was purposefully denying him anything.
To be honest I never associated Ghost with Jon’s Targaryen side or weirwoods. Obviously I thought of all of them as a “Stark thing,” on the surface, but I was more interested in the relation of each individual direwolf with its bonded Stark. The names chosen for each are all in some fashion representative of the Stark. Their personalities and/or paths they’ve taken can be said to mirror as well, at least in the books. Also, while we don’t know what all of their fates will be in the books, on the show so far the ones that have died have done so in a manner that can be related to the Stark in some way. Of course Sansa and Bran haven’t died, but Lady being killed as an innocent could represent the death of Sansa’s innocence and naivety while Summer died in the cave where Bran ‘died’ and became “not really Bran” anymore.
Anon,
And the Tinfoil Hat Award goes to…
Ghost has white fur with red eyes mainly to differentiate Jon’s direwolf from the rest… It’s GRRM’s way of showing how “different” is Jon from the other Stark children, namely he is the main character of ASOIAF.
Anon,
I believe the message goes deeper than names, deeper than being trueborn or bastard, inheritances, politics, etc. and right down into the blood and mystery of House Stark and to, dare I say it, prophecy probably. Whatever mysterious magic is linked to the Starks and to the Targaryens, to the Old Gods, the mysteries of Winterfell, the mysteries of the Wall, the magic of Old Valyria, dragon riders, etc. is coming back – if it ever truly left. There is old magic in the Wall, in Winterfell, the magic of Old Valyria still lurks across the Narrow Sea. The Stark kids don’t get a magic wolf because it’s their birthright, they get a magic wolf because they are the blood children of House Stark and some mysterious force saw fit they should have them for some mysterious reason yet to be disclosed.
In the eyes of the Old Gods, yes, Jon is a Stark because he has the blood of House Stark – as much as Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. Not only that, he’s the child of two magical bloodlines, which goes beyond any political ramifications like birthright or rulership or whatever (who the “true heir” to the Iron Throne is debated). Jon has an unknown quantity to him, a power that may be essential in ensuring humanity’s survival of the Long Night. This doesn’t make him any less of a Stark, but it adds to the mystery of Jon and whatever magic exists in his blood that comes out of being the child of two ancient, mysterious bloodlines. Also, to add to the Starkiness and power of the Old Gods, Jon’s a warg in the books – like all the other Stark children (per GRRM).
Ned doesn’t owe any loyalty to Rhaegar just because Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together and had a son. Ned’s loyalty is to Lyanna and to her child, and to keep that child, his nephew, alive and protected from anyone who’d want to murder him for his Targaryen blood. And yeah, Ned will turn cartwheels and do somersaults to keep the truth hidden because if he doesn’t, Jon will be hunted: he doesn’t want Jon to end up with his brains dashed against some wall like the infant Aegon, slaughtered like Rhaenys, or on the run from assassins his whole life like Daenerys and Viserys.
Personally, I’d rather have Alive Bastard Jon who grew up with a family rather than Dead Prince Aegon/Jon or Exiled Royal Jon/Aegon.
No problem! 😉 Sadly, I can’t take credit for that beautiful creation – I think that belongs to the good folks of Reddit!
Clob,
This!
Adrianacandle,
And this!!
Clob,
I agree with you- the direwolves were each representative of their owner’s qualities and life-paths. I hadn’t really thought much of the coloring either- other than Gjost being different from the rest representing Jon’s uniqueness. For the sake of this current discussion I stepped into/ it’s weirwood over Targ colors any day of the week.
Re: Ghost’s colouring
The weirwood tree was the Knight of the Laughing Tree’s “personal sigil”.
Not only is it connected to Stark, but to the specific Stark Jon got his Stark blood from.
Yeah, I agree. I also enjoy the parallels Clob is talking about between each kid and their direwolf. While I see Ghost being a direwolf as symbolic of House Stark, symbolizing Jon being of Stark blood, they’re both a little bit different and apart at the same time. Kind of like what Juri was saying re: how Jon’s wolf is differentiated from the others, it mirrors both Jon and Ghost as being a little unique with an unknown, mysterious quality about them. One side of Jon’s heritage is a complete blank to most everyone, including Jon, while Ghost is white, mute and silent (in both voice and movement) – and it’s Ghost who opens his eyes while the eyes of the other pups remain closed. This, in combination with the knowledge that Jon comes from two ancient, magic bloodlines (Stark and Targaryen, the Old Gods and Valyria), is pretty interesting to me.
There’s so much stuff with the direwolves, each Stark kid, the wolf dreams, where the wolves come from, why the Starks were given them, the fates of each wolf vs. what happens with each Stark kid, how each wolf aligns with their associated Stark kid – there’s a lot there.
Mel,
Bran tells Meera he’s not really Bran anymore hence why he’s not there? Plus someone pushing him in his chair wouldn’t have the same flair about it possibly? Not convinced teaser holds any foreshadowing, just a teaser to wet the appetite i think
… in medivial times the female bloodline was the only reliable lineage…
I wonder why people insist on Jon wouldn’t be less Stark than Targaryen.
He is 50 % Stark like his “siblings” (cousins), looks quite like a Stark, is raised as a Stark, behaved as a Stark, thinks of himself as a Stark. That makes 90 % Stark in toto ;o)
10 % are “But I’m a bastard” > 10 % Targaryen.
When he finds out, he will refuse it.
My tinfoil.
Clob,
Very interesting Clob. If the Stark Direwolves will in fact mirror their owner’s stories, then it’s time for us to start accepting that Arya (like Nymeria) will be the one to lead the “Wolfpack”. In the books, Nymeria is such an intriguing character.
She’s clearly the alpha female & follows only Ghost (the alpha male). She refuses to mate with any other wolf. She’s waiting on her one and only alpha male to lead by her side… As happened in the show & with Martin basically confirming “Hodor’s” meaning, it’s very well possible that Summer dies in the cave & Bran transitions from Brandon Stark to the 3 Eyed Raven who will warg nearly any & everything.
Unfortunately, I fear Sansa’s fate may still lead back to Cersei in some way just like Lady’s. Though one must wonder why Cersei still hates Sansa after the Queen of Thorns took credit for Joff’s poisoning? Jealousy? Fear that she’s the younger, more beautiful? Regardless, if your theory of the Wolves & their owners paths mirroring is correct, then Sansa will not survive to the end. Maybe Arya will kill someone (Tommen or Jamie) & Sansa will face the wrath in her place like Lady did?
I think the 3 Eyed Raven warged into Bran and they both reside in Bran’s head.
I didn’t even notice Bran wasn’t in the teaser.
Noh.
Adrianacandle,
Fellow Urban Decay fan?!?! 😀
*raises hand*
Stupid question – how are people connecting theories of Bran/John Boy/Mary Ellen/etc being the Night King, to the very Furdik-looking NK in the show? Do you think he isn’t really that recognizable face who the Children shanked way back when, that he has a glamour on or is a shapeshifter, or he appears differently to different people….? I’m serious, I want to know how you get that. 🤔
Pigeon,
Some people think that the guy dragonglassed to the heart by the Children is actually an old Stark and that Bran through the Weir-Net will warg back into him & other famous Brandon’s (like Brandon the Builder who built the Wall & Winterfell & other magical places).
There have also been tinfoil theories that the White Walkers need a powerful warg or greenseer to control them all. So let’s say Furdik was created as a means to control the spread of WW’s because without him to control the hive mind then they will just rampage out of control & kill everyone & everything.
In this scenario Bran must become the next Night King after Jon kills Furdik and the other walkers don’t die but go berserk. So Bran or Jon or someone will take the dragonglass to the heart & then mind control the Walkers & lead them back north of the wall. Very tinfoil but would certainly classify as bittersweet.
Also, the fact that the next “prequel” series is more about the Long Night as opposed to simply being about the Targs tells us that there is way more to the Night King & the Long Night than just him being a single minded killing machine. Was he originally a King? Was he promised the Throne or a Bride? Was he given a mandate to kill all Andals but was never given an off switch? Was he cursed? I wouldn’t be shocked if the 3 Eyed Raven crossed over into both series & thus Bran’s character proves very very important to the Night King’s story & the Long Night.
Fellow Urban Decay fan!!! No better potion than a Primer Potion!! ;D
I love this!!!!!!
First off, I’m recanting previous post, I haven’t been paying attention. Rewatching season five and noticed that all the previous Stark Kings are seated, therefore Bran isn’t represented in statuary. I did notice Sansa walks away with the feather, therefore I’ve come up with a few theories, which I hope haven’t been thought of beforehand. The feather represents Spring, as Robert mentions where and when Lyanna should’ve been buried. Could the person she gives it to be the one to stop the NK, and usher spring. Another option is if she gives it to Gendry and the feather comes full circle, as Sansa upon meeting him falls in love. Just theorizing the possibilities.
No, what Ned was doing was the very essence of protecting Jon, in a time when being a Targaryen was dangerous. He was keeping him away from all that stuff and (he hoped) facilitating him living a normal life.
Also no. Robert was 100% justified in killing Rhaegar, as he and the other rebels were acting in their own defense. Rhaegar was the one in the wrong, having declared war on people who were being unjustly persecuted by his father.
I get that the NK and the AOTD are basically killing machines that have a single-minded purpose of killing off humans thanks to the COTF, but what I want to know is what is the NK’s plan after the AOTD kills everyone off? Would they just go back North of the Wall and disappear again or….?
Next question: Where did the undead come from, before NK was created by the CotF?
cos alpha,
I always wondered the same thing? If the NK was made to stop the dead, where did they come from to begin with?
I always go back the the lord of light magic & how it can create zombie monsters (Cat) instead of real life (Beric, Jon)
NK himself, I think, is searching for redemption and he knows, redemption is – if at all – to be found south of the wall. Someone is there, who can give it to him, or something, that he needs. Perhaps he only had the AotD exploited to break the wall and pave the way to his aim (what ever it might be)?
The wight were and are animated by the Others. The question is the uncertain origin of the Others themselves. The legends say the Night’s King came to be in a time seemingly while the Others already existed. The Night’s King has not made an appearance in the books and we don’t have a true origin story of the Others. I’m assuming the prequel will cover that more specifically.
The show gave us the scene of the creation of this Night King by the cotf and context that would make us believe he was the very first Other/WW and all of the WW and wights were then created/animated after that.
Clob,
I was unsure, what the show would tell me about that, Clob. But probably I mixed up show- and book-story, when I saw that scene (creating NK).
My initial tinfoil was that since we only see and hear about female Children of the Forest, that the white walkers/others were actually male Children that underwent a voluntary transformation to be able to combat the First Men and Andals.
This was kind of shot to shit by the show showing a normal man being dragonglassed and and I believe in the books Bran actually sees male Children in the cave with Bloodraven. If not, then where are all of the male CotF???
Also, for my book readers. Seeing as we haven’t seen a Night King in the books, will we eventually get a NK making ceremony like we saw in the show? If so my money is on Euron or Stannis. Euron sees himself as a god. I can see either (mainly Euron) volunteering for the procedure in order to command a limitless army that follows orders without hesitation.
It’s a sweet thought, but do you think she remembered to bring the feather when she and Theon jumped from the parapet in Season 5? And would Lady Stark be interested in a blacksmith bastard? Finally, Gendry once told someone else that she would be his lady. GRRM even wrote them a lovesong, prominently featuring feathers:
My featherbed is deep and soft,
and there I’ll lay you down,
I’ll dress you all in yellow silk,
and on your head a crown.
For you shall be my lady love,
and I shall be your lord.
I’ll always keep you warm and safe,
and guard you with my sword.
And how she smiled and how she laughed,
the maiden of the tree.
She spun away and said to him,
no featherbed for me.
I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves,
and bind my hair with grass,
But you can be my forest love,
and me your forest lass.[1]
Luckily, those two will be reunited once more in Winterfell.
It’s interesting too how only his eyes turn blue. His skin doesn’t become white and frosty like the Others we see afterward.
Being Targaryen was dangerous because of Robert and his buddy, Ned. I’m not aware of any crusade to kill Targs other than Robert’s crusade, eagerly enjoined by Ned. The Starks were angry because the mad king burned their diplomatic delegation that demanded the return of a woman who didn’t want to be found.
Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted to be together and I bet somebody knew it. She ran for her life from the stinking corpse of Winterfell and Robert’s passion. She then honoured her husband Rhaegar by observing Targaryen naming conventions and called the baby Aegon. Jon is living proof of their love….and their defiance.
The Starks were angry because one of their own had seemingly been abducted, at which point Aerys executed numerous of the kingdom’s most powerful nobles and called for the executions of Ned and Robert, who had done nothing. They were acting entirely in their own defense.
Ten Bears,
Our Pod’s just floating through life on charm, isn’t it? 😀
As for the spirals, looking forward to some small hint of the why and how of their significance.
3eyes,
I am also wondering about the spirals, and the fucking “artists of the dead”.
In our own world, the spiral represents so much. Electromagnetic radiation (the light emitted by every star) follows a spiral. Every physics textbook will show a diagram of the sun’s energy traveling along both an electric and magnetic field, each field represented by a plane on an axis, one perpendicular to the other. The big mystery? (Aside from the wave/particle question). How does the wave oscillate simultaneously across both an electric field and a magnetic field? Well. How about it’s a fucking spiral, man?
Now imagine this emanating from all points, in every direction, at all times. Find a ratio. Catch a wave.
Maybe the dead are onto something 🙂
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I’m with you in that Sansa and Gendry will never be a thing.
Arya and Gendry, on the other hand, have shared history, companionship, friendship. Trust. Even puppy love, though I tend to think Gendry was a surrogate big brother, a substitute for Robb and especially Jon, for Arya at the time – she was a prepubecent girl, both books and show, when they were together.
OK, so book!Arya notices his muscles when he’s working in the smithy in Harrenhall, it’s a slight hint… although at the time she only thinks of it in terms of a strong friend that could help her and Hot Pie. But she did notice those muscles…
Then there’s that book scene of puppy jealousy with Arya, Ned Dayne and Gendry, and the scene in the Peach in Stoney Sept (do I remember the place correctly – the place of the Battle of the Bells), so while it’s all just brotherly/friend stuff, there’s enough there for Arya/Gendry shippers to latch onto. I’m half one of those, haha.
What I find really annoying is show watchers taking Gendry’s “No, you’d be m’lady,” in response to Arya’s plea “You could be my family,” as some sort of a declaration of luurve on his part.
It might be foreshadowing, but it sure as hell was not a declaration of love at the time, it was a gentle rebuff and a remainder of social and class distinctions that Gendry, as a bastard blacksmith’s apprentice and a few years older is far more aware of than the still very young and indulged and naive highborn lord’s daughter.
He didn’t say “You would be my lady” as in “lady of my heart”/”my love” or anything like that. He said “m’lady”, the form of address the lowborn use to the highborn. He stated the fact that should he go off with Arya and attach himself to Robb’s retinue, he’d still be the lowborn bastard apprentice, so he can’t be Arya’s family, no matter how much she might wish it.
Of course the scene was heartbreaking, and soon after, Arya loses him, her surrogate big brother, the friend she likes above anybody else, even Hot Pie.
The interesting twist in the show is that Gendry then learns about his parentage from Melisandre (S3), goes rowing, and resurfaces in S7 to affirm it to Jon – who seems to take it on trust. Plus, Gendry, strangely, never mentions Arya. If I wanted to get into the good graces of a monarch, I’d mention my frienship with his sister, duh! Maybe Gendry is just a moron, or D&D are.
Now Gendry isn’t as far below Arya socially, a former King’s unacknowledged bastard, potential heir to Storm’s End is a tad better than a son of nobody. He also seems newly conscious of his tenious/potential status. Plus a bit whingey.
Would the Arya that’s gone through near hell with the Faceless Men and now finally come home to her sister and brothers feel the same way about Gendry? (She might, if they hadn’t given him that awful buzzcut!)
Robert Baratheon uttered the (prophetic?) words, both book and show, “I have a son, you have a daughter, let’s join our families!” Joffrey and Sansa never worked out (well, he wasn’t Bobby B’s son) but could another daughter and another son fulfill this kingly wish?
Gods, old and new, I love analysing and speculating about ASOIAF/GOT! I love it when somebody brings up an idea I haven’t thought about or explored throroughly enough. It’s a large portion of the fun, the enjoyment. The real enjoyment comes, of course, from watching the actual show. Only 86 days now!
Oh, and when (if) the books come out.
Spirals are a real world thing. Something the human mind is drawn to. They appear in nature, in plants,in animals. Also in many, if not most of all early human cultures, in their artefacts.
Maybe that’s why the spiral is so important to the Children of the Forest. Mimicking nature. And then the monsters they created have carried on the tradition, “Always the artists,” as Mance Rayder said when he saw what was left of the Fist of First Men attack on the Night’s Watch. (Show, S3.)
Oh my god I had completely missed this new article and had stayed in the last one, I wondered why there were only a few dozen comments since the trailer aired:) Going to read through all the comments now but amazed it generated so many comments considering there was no new footage and the date was max one week earlier than most people expected.
Sister Kisser,
talvikorppi,
Could the spirals have something to do with the extended summers and winters? Is the cycle a little different each time (hence a spiral instead of a circle)? Will the Old Gods become ascendent again through the Starks? 86 days until we know.
Che,
Che, I am beginning to think you are following me around! Anyway, I wanted to respond before this article went under the fold.
I do not see where we disagree on the major points you have made. Your points are quite reasonable as I see it.
Conquest is conquest. War is war. And yes, many kings have made their way to rule thru war – not just the Targs. I am not anti-war in all circumstances (eg, Nazis) and am pragmatic. I am fully in agreement with saying the Targs conquered and re-conquer Westeros because they can with the dragons. It is the way of the world.
Do they have a right to rule Westeros? I can see why THEY think so as you explained. They did unify the seven kingdoms and that may lead the Targs ( and many fans) to think Jon or Daenerys have a right to rule Westeros. This does not mean what THEY think is true. It is self-serving. The iron throne itself may belong to the Targs as a piece of furniture as they made it. But the right to rule Westeros is a different thing.
Right and firepower are very different – even when you unify a region. In more modern examples, the British united the Indian subcontinent under a single ruler after the breakdown of the Mughal empire but Mahatma Gandhi certainly did not think the British Kings had the right to rule it. The French united Indochina but the Vietnamese did not think they had the right to rule it.
In another post we can discuss the difference between the rise of a local warlord to bring a particular region to peace versus invasion by an external army to subjugate the locals. (Or why it may have been Ok for Genghis Khan to unite Mongolia under his rule but less so for him to take his armies outside Mongolia to conquer other peoples.)
Be also mindful than GRRM objected to the Vietnam war. There are similarities btw his GOT story and this famous war. In the same way, the American war machine was useful to fight Nazis but was very unwise to try to reconquer the Vietnamese after a local rebellion threw off the previous external conquerors. Her Targ firepower will find its true purpose against the AOTD.
Totally on board with you here!!! It was a gentle rebuff to Arya’s naïve proposition and nothing more. The idea that broken psychopathic Arya would become Gendry’s lovey-dovey wife is preposterous. The tragedy of Arya’s character is that her wish of becoming a sort of warrior (like her admired Visenya) came true at a terrible price, her dehumanization.
I do hope she finds some sort of respite from all that anger and self-righteousness. But I have a hard time imaging she will find that in domesticity. It’s not her.
3eyes,
That is a great thought- something about the idea that time is non-linear in planetos.
talvikorppi,
Yes ma’am. Everywhere in nature, the golden spiral! And on the topic of FOTFM- that battle was so thrilling to read. I actually do like the way the show executed (literally and figuratively) the scene. I was bummed not to see it, but as an all-audio season opener, it was pretty cool. I don’t remember if GRRM laid out the remains in this way… is the spiral a show-only motif?
If you give me a couple of days, I’ll lay out my tinfoil theory about the spirals – which is really a subset of a larger, multiple layer tinfoil theory based on hung guns remaining to be fired.
Ten Bears,
Looking forward to this!
She’s neither broken nor psychopathic, though of course she has killed. Always justly. If Arya were a psychopath, all the Frey men, children and women, the Lannister soldiers, and Cersei would be dead. Wouldn’t a psychopath just have killed Littlefinger rather than aided his being brought to justice? As to broken, her scenes with the soldiers, Hot Pie, and even her empathy with Nymeria choosing to stay with her pack show Arya is unbroken. She handled those Keystone Kops guards with finesse and forbearance.
She’s already found a respite from anger, first in Lady Crane’s ministrations but also in going home. Bran even gave her a hug. She made a friend in Brienne. Alas, Sansa was still under Baelish’s thumb and that boil had to be lanced before the sisters could be reconciled. As to marriage, we shall see. Since Episode 1.02 Arya has given love and support to many people, many a motherless child. To love and be loved is a requirement; domesticity is not. Gendry accepted her back in Seasons 1-3, so he won’t care. Love, honesty, trust are requirements…and those two already have them. I agree with Talvikorppi that “No, you’ll be my lady” is not about love. But “I can be your family” was. And finally, she’s not dehumanised. While training with the FM, she temporarily set some of her humanity aside like she set Needle aside. She’s reclaimed both. Her last words to Hot Pie were “Take care of yourself, Hot Pie. Try not to get killed.” Her first words to Sansa after LF was dead were, “Are you all right?”
She’s returning the kind, though untrammeled person she was in the first season.
I am beginning to fear you are right Jack because I saw a snippet from D&D stating if they had their way they wouldn’t release a trailer because they want people to watch it completely cold with no idea what is going to happen. I am still expecting the trailer to drop next month at the superbowl as expected but wouldn’t rule out the trailer showing as little as possible to keep every thing secret just like Avengers 4 did.
Let’s see if the poster drops at the end of this month although I do find that something which doesn’t really excite me.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
She wasn’t making friends with Brienne, she was establishing her skill superiorirty.
But hey, sure, romanticize a child soldier all you want…
I debated whether to reply to this, because I honestly don’t know whether you’re trolling or not, but this is just too much. You completely misread that scene. Arya admires Brienne because she is the embodiment of what Arya wanted to be. That is clearly shown when they first meet in season 4. It’s only when she hears that Brienne’s sword was given to her by Jamie that she turns sour. When they meet again in season 7, she’s obviously put that aside, and you can see in both their faces a respect and a bond develop between them.
The one point I will agree with you on is that Arya is broken. Of course she is. Who wouldn’t be after all the trauma and horrors she’s been through? And to be clear, that’s not a sign of weakness at all. Everyone has vulnerabilities. That’s what makes us human.
Another aspect of Arya that I’ve never shied away from is that there is a darkness in her, that’s clear. She’s capable of some very brutal acts against those who have done her or her family wrong. However, she is fundamentally a good, compassionate person, and that’s what makes her such a fascinating character. So labelling her as “dehumanized” is just ridiculous. There was a danger of her going down this path, but then she saw the hypocrisy and b.s. with the Faceless Men and wouldn’t have any of it. Her refusal to kill Lady Crane was a humanizing moment, as was her interactions with her just prior. One could even say that her sparing Jaqen was mercy of sorts. She had Needle pointed right at his chest and he admitted he sent the Waif to kill her, but Arya didn’t kill him. Her sparing the women of House Frey and her subsequent interaction with the Lannister soldiers was a humanizing moment. Arya turning away from revenge against Cersei to go home was a humanizing moment. And those are just some examples from seasons 6+.
The show has been very clear to remind us of these moments for Arya.
Enharmony1625,
Maisie has shown such a tremendous range of emotions in her portrayal of Arya. I pray that they give her great material in season 8 because she deserves that Emmy. When Thrones runs roughshod over the awards ceremony and cleans up, it will be a travesty for Maisie to not receive one for the work she’s done on this, the greatest show in television history… Out of all the young actors on GoT’s she’s clearly established herself as the best. Alfie as Theon is up there too.
I highly doubt it remember the last book was originally called “a time of Wolves” essentially hinting it will feature the resurrection of the Starks. I suspect neither Dany or Cersei will be alive at the end but no doubt they will feature in the trailer when it finally drops.
It is remarkable how many people do not get this! Sure, Arya is psychologically scarred, but: 1) who isn’t? and, 2) who would not be even more so after what she has been through?
But, no: Arya is not broken. Take away her enemies and her grievances, and then Arya will start to have a more “normal” life. Now, that life will be far from the “normal” life that her parents would have wanted her to have: but she’s not going to go around killing people just to keep her stabbing reflexes pristine.
Daenerys will be there at the end: she’s one of the two biggest protagonists in the series. Cersei is a lesser one, but she probably will not die until the very end.
Tyrion is the other character that we should be discussing: he’s the #3 protagonist in the series.
As for “An Hour of Wolves” meaning that the final story will about the Starks, that is probably not a good interpretation. The hour of the wolf has a very specific meaning that is quite appropriate to the climax of this story. Indeed, the fact that this is the former title is evidence for the opposite idea: the title might mislead into thinking that it was about Starks rather than at the border between night and dawn or life and death. The fact that Martin changed the title to one with similar implications (Dream of Spring) but no Stark implications further corroborates that notion.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Agreed! I would love to see Maisie win the Emmy, but I’m also a bit torn because I think Lena deserves it in spades as well because she’s done a fantastic job as Cersei over the years.
I’m optimistic that all the major characters will get great material in season 8 as their arcs wrap up. There’s so much potential!
Enharmony1625,
I am sure all the major characters will get lots of time in Season 8. The teasers/trailers will have some misdirection.
Expect to see a lot of the Lannisters. Dink, NCW in particular and of course Lena. HBO is not casting senior actors in those roles to have the finale carried mainly by the less experienced hires. HBO knew the end requirements when they hired up their acting staff.
Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Isaac are the core magic staff.
Dink, NCW, Lena and Sansa are the core non-magic staff. (Brienne is Jaime’s love interest.)
Expect a lot from these two groups. In particular, the senior actors will be around deep into the series – Episode 5/6.
Wimsey,
Nice to have you back, and making sense as usual. Minor point: Jon Snowed referred to “A Time of Wolves”. The actual wording was “A Time for Wolves.” I welcome the more ambiguous “A Dream of Spring”). Perhaps The Hour of the Wolf will also be relevant in the Long Night,
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I have been keeping my head low, hoping to avoid spoilers! (So far, so good!)
And, yes, “Time” and “Hour” are not identical: but the old title was almost certainly an allusion to the old line about the hour of the wolf. As there is an allegorical overlap (or two!) between “hour of the wolf” and “dream of spring,” it strongly suggests that the “meaning” comes from that overlap.
At any rate, it does strike me as odd that people would think that GRRM (and then B&W) would spend so much time building up Daenerys & Tyrion as two of the three biggest protagonists only to cast them aside in the end!
The size of the cast will always hurt the chances of individual awards for this sort of show. It is remarkable that they’ve even managed nominations: oftentimes, big casts cancel each other out.
ViciousDire
Ten Bears,
Ned didnt place the feather. Sansa took it later away. By now ther is no feather in Lyanna´s hand. wolf,
That’s true, but Peter has won it twice so there’s always a chance. Especially in the final season. I would find it quite unfortunate for a series that has so many strong, interesting, and layered female roles to not get recognition for any of them over it’s 8-season run.
Enharmony1625,
I think Lena should get nominated & win as lead actress while Maisie should get it as supporting actress. Lena did tweet out “Queen” or something like that when Maisie tweeted she had wrapped shooting her scenes. I hope that was a hint that they’d be in a scene together.
Plus Maisie winning would give her a chance to talk about her social media app Daisie & how it aims to help bring young creative people and their ideas together. That would be the perfect end for Maisie & the character of Arya… Can’t wait.
But a scenario where Jon isn’t king also doesn’t make sense. Why otherwise make him the secret heir? Sansa ruling would be horrible in my opinion. It’s either Jon or some form of democracy.
By the way I agree Jon is unlikely to want it but that’s the bitter sweet part. The bitter because he will not want it but the sweet that he will be a fair ruler.
James Hibberd has all but confirmed there will be no breaks between episodes they will run for six weeks straight.
Jon is not dead, he’s alive. Just he died and came back to life, this happens in real life too (just not for as long as Jon which seemingly was a day or even two.
Yep over 400 now, I suspect we will hit over 500 posts when the trailer finally drops. Unlike last season we have absolutely no idea what is coming so interest is at fever pitch.
Jon Snowed,
The thread for the S7 trailer hit 428 posts. We’re a lot more starved for anything this time. However, closer to premiere usually means more articles/threads about additional interviews, production photos and other random promo stuff so we’re not as focused on one individual thread for so long. I’m sure it will blow up fast though. 🙂
The same statue of man sitting is shown in S7 E2 Stormbringer when Jon Snow and Littlefinger are talking in the Winterfell Crypts… not sure if the statue has anything to do with their conversation.