The cast keeps expanding for the yet-unnamed Game of Thrones spin-off, set far back in the days of the legendary Age of Heroes, when the First Men and the Children of the Forest fought side by side in the War for the Dawn to turn back the White Walkers. We’re really going to need a real title soon, guys; how about… huh, The Long Night?
Anyway, though the main stars were recently announced, with Naomi Watts and others making up the core cast, there have been casting calls for many other characters since September, when we learned they were looking for a diverse talent pool, a trend that’s held ever since, and still does in the casting calls we exclusively bring you today!
The first two characters to be cast, codenamed “L2” and “W2“, are little kids. They’re looking for confident black young actors, aged 6 to 10, to fill these roles. Though it’s not specified, the fact that they’re being cast together may point to them being brothers.
The final casting call refers to a character codenamed “F2“, a young white woman to be played by an actress between 26 and 33 years old. It’s stressed that HBO “needs a very strong actress” for this role, so it may be more of a prominent character than it appears.
As usual, there are no details about the characters in these casting calls—we don’t even get clever fake names anymore to help us guess who they are. Nevertheless, if you put all of them together you may start to get a picture of how the cast will look like. As we knew, it’s quite a diverse ensemble of characters compared to Game of Thrones, and it appears there will be many related characters yet again. Will the spin-off be as much of a family affair as Game of Thrones? Will the show be just as centered on the nobility too, or will we see more of the smallfolk this time around? What do you think?
At least it’s coming along. Hopefully won’t have to wait too long after GoT for this.
I thought that was Jennifer Aniston.
I don’t know about others but this prequel isn’t ticking my boxes thus far. No Targaryens? Soooo far in the past as to not be very relatable to the series we have come to know and love. Does that mean the Houses aren’t familiar either? Or the Westerosi dynamic? No dragons either?
Maybe it’s me but I am not feeling this at all at the moment. Happy to be corrected though.
Dyanna,
Well, you’re likely to hear about the origins of the others, the children of the forest, and the first men (some of whom were starks).
I wouldn’t expect the setting to resemble the world of GOT too closely, though. I’m expecting it will be more fantasy, less political drama (tho I suspect there will be some of that- just in a more primitive setting- I.e. no red keep). Oh man- we may see the founding of winterfell!
My major concern (besides overall quality) is continuity. I really don’t want to see anything like Star Trek’s Prime Timeline vs Kelvin Timeline. However this prequel starts and winds up, I want it to be a reasonable, logical, precursor to the GoT we know. Five (or nine) thousand years is a huge sweep of time, plenty of time for whole civilizations to come and go. But I don’t want to be the one that figures out what may of happened – I want to GoT folks to at least hint at how we got from Then to Now.
It’s just hard to get into this now with the final season of GoT looming, which we’ve already been waiting almost 17 months for.
Dyanna,
Me neither, not really interesting into the story of the first women.
The cast and crew aren’t really ticking the right boxes for me. But still I hope I’m wrong and the show will be amazing. I am okay with 50% of got quality.
evenwind,
Even the cast for me isn’t what I expect. The first men need to be people that looked hardened, strong etc. Sean bean have that look. I think you know what I mean. Viggo Mortensen would also be great. I’m not really seeing one single cast member that could portrait the people that lives in such times.
And the time line is out of sync.
The more I know the more I hoped they went with a show concerning the rise and fall of valyria. They could make at least 5 seasons out of that. Rise of it 2 seasons. After that the rise of cities like braavos. 2 seasons. And after that the fall of valyria. They could use a format like vikings when it comes to aging of characters.
This prequel is shaping up to be quite odd, it would seem.
Can’t deny my excitement levels are steadily dropping.
Naomi Watts remains the only thing I’m excited about for this new show, so far any way.
Kevin1989,
Haven’t you been upset about supposed “box checking” in the first place?
Nick20,
It’s early. Give it time.
Jack Bauer 24,
This I agree with, for sure.
Sister Kisser,
No I was very excited at first. Having the story of the past. The age of heroes. A story that I’m really interesting in seeing on screen. But every time some news about the show, the cast crew or even information about the story I get less excited. First I was 100% excited now maybe 30%
I have nothing against the cast. I think this would be an excellent cast if the story was about Valyria, I can see them in there playing a big role.
The long night was about the first war against the white walkers. It was about the first men a group of men and woman that are very hardened and look like they could handle the white walkers and the armies of the dead. We need characters that have the feeling that we have with thormund,Beric, the hound, brienne, ygritte, karsi gully etc. In that time there weren’t huge castles with walls(stated by someone working on the prequels) so to survive you need to have that fighting quality and the actor that portrait such a character needs to have that in them.
For me the actors that we got are summer child’s. And we need winter warriors. And it feels to mainstream.
So nothing against the crew and cast, but I hope they are not one of the fighters,maybe people in the south that aren’t aware of the problems in the north.
Kevin1989,
Ps I see that she worked on dexter and directed one of my favorite episodes. That gave me some hope.
I hear you. As someone on another thread said something along these lines, “if the OC was making GOT”. I thoughg that was hilarious.
But your comment “Not really interstimg into the story of the first women” is gonna get some pushback. Did the first men not have first women?
You mention not checking your boxes, yet on another thread you were very clear that a show that checks everyone else’s boxes was not cool. I would kindly suggest you check yourself.
Also. No stress. We don’t really know anything yet. Give it time.
Finally, a show with no Targaryen “Gods”. I want to see more of the north and their magical origins. Out with dragons and hopefully in with children of the forest. I’m ready. 🙌🏼
This. Exactly the sorts of characters we need to see.
But then again, maybe this show is not set in Westeros.
Nick20,
Maybe we’re looking at this wrong. What if the very first line in the first scene is something like “Governor Stark! Terrible news! The Portal to the Home Dimension has crashed and can’t be repaired! We’re marooned here!
Sister Kisser,
Was just a “joke”, a feeling that I get. I have a feeling that something is happening behind the scenes with the production, something that happened with for instance Dr Who. Maybe I’m right maybe I’m wrong. But many people have that feeling, as you stated makers of OC making GoT. And I hope that that’s not coming true, GoT deserves better.
And what I said is that story and art needs to be first priority of a tv-show or movie. And only second diversity and filling in boxes. And what is happening lately with many shows is that the art and story isn’t that important anymore and a quota is more important. I’m all in for diversity but story first (example Lost had a very diverse cast but story was first priority)
Nick20,
Maybe we see the first men before they come to Westeros. I would watch that. But that I wonder how the timeline works, because the WW are made after the first men raged war against the CotF, so for the WW to be part of the story in the first season the first Men need to be in Westeros already.
evenwind,
Stargate: The Long night.
Dear Luka,
Is it presumptuous to ask if the updates about the prequel mean that watchersonthewall.com will live on even after S8 of Game of Thrones concludes?
Forced Inclusion is the death of creativity.
I think anybody without super blinders on knows that this show is going down the wrong path.
This cast would look awesome in a Valyria centric setting as we watch the Free Hold warring against the Ghiscari Empire (Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai) and his legions (proto unsullied) or the Rhoynar (ancestor of current dornish) and how they funded the Free Cities of Essos.
But if this is set in Westeros in the days of the first men and children. Well none of them look like first men.
This reminds me of the casting of Fringilla in the Witcher series.
kevin1989,
I think that Hollywood is finally giving more consideration to telling stories that represent the world as it is, not the world some people wish it were. And yes, I realize this is Westeros, not earth, sin I need to go down that line of reasoning with me.
I don’t agree that stories suffer because of this “trend”. I think stories suffer when they suck to begin with.
The Bastard,
“Forced inclusion” is the days of old, when token characters were placed to serve a narrative, when everyone had “super blinders” on, and yes, the stories suffered as a result. Would you rather return to the days of blackface? Did you enjoy a white man plying an Asian man in breakfast at Tiffany’s? To me, this seems more like “forced inclusion”, and the stories suffered. I can’t even watch garbage like that without feeling rage. But ah, those were the days. The good old days when Hollywood was more creative about reality, the stories were brilliant, and everyone who wasn’t white was included as a joke.
I will say this. We don’t even know anything about what the story is. If everyone wants to be upset at this point, who am I to rain on their pity party?
For the record. I am not invested in any of this. I don’t know what the story is supposed to encompass yet. I think the little weasly white guy from the last kingdom was pretty terrible in the last kingdom (hardly a “first man” of Westeros), and don’t expect much more from him here. And I’m a white guy. I laughed at the comment that this looks like an OC production. I am a pretty discerning individual and consider myself to be someone who can read between the lines.
I’m not, however, going I judge this until I see it, and I won’t count out the production based on casting news alone.
What? I mentioned forced inclusion and you rebuttal with blackface? Wow! I was half expecting mentions of Hitler at the end of your comment….
Game of Thrones already has a set universe both in books and on television. This show is really taking that set universe and going against what the viewers have seen for 7+ years. Hence the problem. HBO should find a different property to start this with. The GoT Universe isn’t the place for it, as it is already fully established.
Based on the casting and who they have hired to run the show, it is obvious the show is going to be more like Outlander than Game of Thrones. There is nothing wrong with Outlander, except it isn’t Game of Thrones and never will be. It’s sort of like when LucasFilm put all of of the SJW garbage into The Last Jedi. I have no problem with some of the messages….. but Star Wars (an already established brand) was not the time or place to do it.
I’m sick of Hollywood taking popular properties and using as them a way to push further agendas. It changes the context of the property in an unnatural way. And honestly, it almost always backfires.
Sister Kisser,
The setting of this series is the key of wether the casting will work or not.
As a spanish, everytime I´ve watched with my family 55 Days at Peking I could never took the film seriously. Everytime the extras playing chinese people appeared the jokes started. Nothing puts you off like watching an average spanish guy triying to be passed as a chinese from the XIX century.
Sister Kisser,
I don’t care who they cast or what they look like.
When I read they snagged Naomi Watts, that’s all it took to get me on board. What a coup! She’s been amazing in everything.
I’m sorry but this is just completely off topic. Nobody here is advocating for any of that. The question is more about why the entire cast seems to be composed of people who do not match what we know about First Men.
But, like I said, perhaps we’ve been misinformed about the premise of the show.
But if it is indeed taking in place in Westeros at the time of the First Men, then this cast is all over the place (except for Naomi Watts).
Eonwe,
I agree. That’s why I dont understand he outrage at this point. We don’t know what’s up with the story. What if the summer islanders used to inhabit Westeros, and left when winter came?
Haven’t seen the film you referenced. Spanish film? Where in Spain are you? I love your country. I’ll be in Barcelona in April 🙂
Ten Bears,
I’m with you. I like her a lot, and was happy with that casting news 🙂
Nick20,
I don’t think it’s off-topic. I was responding to nickos claim regarding “forced inclusion”. Nothing seems more “forced” than Mickey Rooney in breakfast at Tiffany’s, and I would argue that his inclusion was unnecessary. I think the long, gradual trend away from this type of casting is a good thing, and I don’t believe this is the reason for poor storytelling, or lack of creativity in film or tv.
Sister Kisser,
Summer islanders haven’t settled in Westeros ever. As far as the Canon told us. First men are dark haired and have dark eyes. That’s why free folk sees gingers as lucky. Because it’s an uncommon trait. That’s why Val in the books is an exotic beauty being blonde. Because blonde hair is an Andal trait.
A setting in Westeros in the long night requires men and women looking like the wildlings, Starks, Boltons, Kastark, Umber, Reeds…
As for the movie. American movie starred by John Wayne and David Niven and filmed in Madrid. So here in Spain a few brows are raised when we see Spanish extras trying to be passed as Chinese people.
Sister Kisser,
As from where I am from. I was born and live in Sevilla.
Sister Kisser,
Sorry, I was moving quickly and a bit distracted- thought it was kevin1989 I was responding to. Autocorrect somehow changed nick20 to nickos.
Eonwe,
Thank you for the clarification- I am a bit far removed from my ancient westerosi history.
There has to be a reason, within the scope of the story, that they have cast such diversity. I cannot bring myself to believe that HBO has suddenly adopted an affirmative action policy to storytelling, or that they are meeting some quota because more recent social/political developments has pressured them to do so. Regardless, I don’t believe the storytelling would necessarily suffer for it.
I love Andalusia, though I’ve only spent time in Granada and Malaga. I hear amazing things about Seville.
I am little confused by the belief/suggestion that greater diversity introduces a greater risk of poor quality. Should it not be the opposite? Opening participation to a larger population ( a direct result on having a larger segment of humanity included as possible participants) should help improve quality as one can assess/find more people with the talent for a series?
Geez, how many crap TV shows with all white casts have we endured? Where was the quality worry when those shows were cast?
In the past, blacks were not allowed to participate in sports like basketball, football and boxing because it was believed that they did not have the right capabilities to do well – that they would lower the standards of the sport. When women were first allowed to vote – there was concern that women would lower the quality of the voting population. The US had a segregated army because there was worry that soldiers of color would ruin the army etc. It goes on and on.
Let us hope we get to a time when visible diversity is so normal, we do not even notice it. Our planet is diverse – it is a gift, let us enjoy it!
The Bastard,
It’s not “SJW” of to have women starring in Star Wars movies and black people in GoT spinoffs. It’s just the way things should be. Take that sexist/racist shit somewhere else.
I don’t understand why anyone is concerned with the ethnicity of casting. The Long Night affected the whole world, not just Westeros. All of the Azor Ahai prophecies come from Asshai and the Dothraki even have reference to it, so thinking it takes place only in Westeros is just a narrow viewpoint.
I think showing different cultures outside of the Andals and First Men is a very good move. It should be a global threat, not only limited to the north, future wildlings, and CotF.
Showing people in other parts of Planetos will be awesome because we won’t just see barbaric people in fur rags, but see cultures we’ve only heard rumors about at this point, with amazing architecture, cultural differences and ways of life.
I just hope these different ethnicity characters aren’t just some more slaves who are freed by a “white savior”(quoted from the script). Lol
Sister Kisser,
I meant Sevilla* need to slow down sometimes
Angel,
SMH. Yeah, that imagery is rough. Was that really in the script?
The Bastard,
I don’t even know what SJW means, and I don’t want to. I don’t have any desire to be in the loop with right-wing racist conspiracy code, so please don’t bother to explain it to me.
But Star Wars? An entire fucking Galaxy, and inclusion pisses you off? My advice- Go watch Snow White and reminisce about the good ole days of Disney
Sue the Fury,
To be fair, I don’t think we can assume that all criticism of Last Jedi’s politics are complaints about the fact that there is a woman in Star Wars.
Sure, some people just hate female leads, but that’s not the majority of the fanbase. I think people are more referring to the Canto Bight subplot about animal abuse, which many people felt was irrelevant to the story of the film and just hurt the pacing and tone of the movie.
I personally didn’t really take issue with it, but I can see why some people might. I don’t think it’s sexism or racism.
As for black people in GoT, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. It’s just that it kind of clashes with what we thought we knew about the First Men, who we assumed to be the focus of this show.
But then again, this show may feature locations in Essos or the Summer Isles.
ChozenOne,
The concern comes from the setting of this prequel. If it Westeros it goes against the narrative. If it is set in places like the Summer Isles, The Empire of Dawn or Asshai then the diversity of the cast is consistent with the worldbuilding.
I would raise my eyebrow if Wakanda´s people were blue eyed blonde, middle eastern or south eastern looking.
Just like I raised my eyebrow with the ridiculous Xerxes from 300 or the Spartans.
Picture Yojimbo portrayed by a white european or a Shaka Zulu movie with a japanese cast. It would look out of place like John Wayne as Genghis Khan.
Somehow I’m not overly interested in the origins as we’ve seen how they were created already and we know the outcome of that war. Still we have no idea of the complexities of the story so it may be great. I love historical drama but I’m not a fantasy fan, so it was the medieval setting which first pulled me in. Lose that and I’m not sure it would retain its appeal for me. Time will tell of course.
Dyanna,
I will always say that the first Blackfyre Rebellion it’s the best setting for a sequel spin-off.
Yes I think you’re right. 🤔
Sister Kisser,
not really sharing that opinion, for instance if Hollywood would make Band of Brothers again, they will forced inclusion there, the armies of the allies will be 50% female. A lot of people of color. Which will tell a different story how it really was. They don’t care about telling the stories right anymore, only about forced inclusion, story is moved to the back, diversity to the right.
And if you don’t believe this, maybe look up some famous actors of color who told how it is going on in the background, that writers are forced to include characters because we are missing a certain group.
I loved diversity, especially when you can learn different cultures, but only when it’s done right. If you force it, most of the time the writers don’t know how to handle it probably. It’s been done a lot with gay characters, they were forced into the show, the characters were gay nothing more, no personalities at all because the writers didn’t know what to do with them. And as a gay guy I rather have them not including a gay character, than adding a gay character without any personality. Loras and Renly were perfect gay characters for me because the first thing that you think of for instance with Renly is that he was a king in season 2, not him being gay. His character was rich (not money kind of rich)
so sorry for coming over as hating it instead of just worried that they will fuck up my favorite franchise.
The Bastard,
+1 But with Outlander, which become one of my favorite series. This week I’m going to watch season 4 (waiting till I can watch with my partner), the diversity is needed and perfectly explained. Season 1 didn’t have people of color only after season 2 because we went to Paris, after that a Chinese that traveled from China, which you heard a lot in that time, my favorite character of the whole show, and we got to see the Caribbeans, that’s the way to go with diversity because it thinks about place/time etc
Eonwe,
+1
Ten Bears,
I saw her in twin peaks season 3, amazing actress.
Nick20,
+1 that’s my point. The place doesn’t match the cast. But lately you can’t voice that opinion without being labelled racist. It has nothing to do if I like watching diversity on screen because I’m really up for that, the more the better, as long as art is their number one priority.
Sister Kisser,
Where do I outrage? At no point I outrage. I just gave my honest opinion that I don’t feel this cast feels like it is about the first men, rather Old Valyria because the setting make sense there. And that I want art before diversity because of those reasons, maybe read the part above where I talk about gay characters (am gay myself) and you understand what I meant.
I’m very calm right now, and it’s only a feeling I have with the prequels, and when I watch it I hope I will be surprised with a show that’s even half amazing than GoT and I’m in with it.
But when I give my opinion about objective things I always get labeled racist etc even without knowing me. I’m as left and progressive as can be. I advocate for human rights, doesn’t matter if it’s LGBTQ or immigrants that are fleeing from war zones. But that doesn’t mean I can have an opinion about tv-shows about wanting to have a show that is consistent with what we’re told. But we get probably the summer Isle, maybe the story begins there.
ChozenOne,
+1
Nick20,
This is what I meant, In my head the prequel is set in the north of westeros, that’s the information that we got, so that’s where my opinion is formed.
But it’s strange that lately you can’t even give an objective opinion without being labeled something. Even here my content of what I write is being given an own swing to support their opinions.
My opinion: Diversity is needed and is one of the most important things that need to happen, not only in hollywood but every profession. It’s a problem that needs to be worked on, in hollywood it takes only a little more creativity. But the art an consistency is important for me in a tv-show especially one like GoT.
Reactions: You racist, sexist, Blackface supporter etc.
People see some words and react directly without thinking further than trying to understand the other.
As for Last Jedi, I love rey, very interesting character. And didn’t really have problems with that movie at all, one of my favorite star wars movie. Kylo Ren is my favorite character of all those movies. I had only one small problem with a one-liner but that’s not a big problem from me.
I’m very happy if the series doesn’t resemble the world of GOT too closely. It wouldn’t make sense and I don’t want GOT 2.0 either.
I can’t wait for the prequel.
I tend to agree with Nick & Kevin & all generally, but…evidently we’re not just going to be in Westeros, which is exciting to me. I still would’ve preferred the Valyrian prequel idea, but maybe that’ll happen later if this one is successful enough. The problem IS worldwide, and if you’re going to be in Essos (despite the little synopsis having talked about the North of Westeros)…clearly that’s way more racially diverse. It’s a lot of desert and darker skin, of course, but heck, Melisandre’s from there too, and she’s white as can be. It really covers the entire spectrum. Not too worried about PC-ness being prioritized over good storytelling and accuracy.
You don’t know anything about this show or where it is set up. Don’t try to find excuses for your racism.
And there is nothing SJW about Star Wars.
Sister Kisser,
The limited publicity for the show so far has made a big point about the story of early Westeros “not being what you think it is” (or words to that effect).
We also know that Westeros is broadly based on the British Isles, albeit obviously greatly extrapolated in geographical size, the age of recorded history etc.
Some real-life news about ancient British history: Recent genetic research has confirmed that early Britons from 10,000 years ago included people who were actually black. There was a huge amount of media publicity in Britain when the reseach was published, not least because the findings clearly challenge widespread modern assumptions about the physical/racial appearance of early Britons.
So that may be what the prequel may be going for in terms of some of the casting, especially if these characters really are among the “First Men”.
Clever stuff.
Wow, Sue’s not being tolerant herself…
Sister Kisser,
Thank you. I just love the way everyone jumps to conclusions without having seen one episode or having read one line of script for that matter! I am in the camp of trusting HBO, particularly under the guidance of GRRM and on their biggest cash cow. Also, this is a TV show. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it.
Yes, I am intolerant of racism in the ASOIAF/GoT fandom. And you should be too.
I have to laugh at the attempts to justify racism. We know next to nothing about the new show and people still try to pull the “We have to have a reason for there to be black people.”
No we don’t. Your ass is showing. Go away.
Wow! The coward’s racism shown in some of these comments is revolting. Cowardly hiding behind lame adjectives is worse than blatant racist words, simply, because it is emotionally and socially dishonest. Something I detest.
It would really be refreshing to read posts where the commentators writes he or she hates the fact that there are multiple Black People cast and/or not enough Scandinavians, or some such opinions. Ah! But that would take courage! Indeed it would… Instead, we are treated to posts stating “we need more actors who look like Tormund or Brienne.” LOL!!! Based on what I’ve read on this board over the years the flavor of this thread’s comments is not surprising or unexpected. “What a world.”
Does not Martin have some say into casting types? I wonder. A sensible mind would thinks this to be the case. I’m curious as to what his opinions are on the cast so far?
Sue the Fury,
Thank you Sue! I did not see your comments until after I’d written mine.
The first men (homo sapiens) were black.
Where have I stated that Star Wars is SJW, I already said I liked Last Jedi and it was one of my favorite of the whole saga???
The only thing that I see happening is that some make up arguments that is used by me that I never used, they twist and turn my words to make their point.
I never said that diversity is bad, never. I said that I have the feeling (and that’s what it is a feeling and I’m probably wrong but I have the right to have that feeling) that the show will be used as a political machine, and even when I share that opinion, I’m not looking for a show like that. It happen with Dr who, of the 10 episodes 8 need to lecture the fans about things happening in this world, and everytime I watched I thought: why telling me this when I already agree with you? don’t lecture me.
That’s what I’m afraid of, that they don’t care about consistency anymore and the story. And of course I’m going to watch it.
(And if you didn’t me as a racist sorry for the defending of myself)
Jai,
Interesting, but it makes sense. Wasn’t it already knowledge that the first humans were originated from Africa and we immigrated to other parts of the world? And that the lack of sunlight made us whiter?
If they go that way it makes a lot of sense, and more interesting.
Sue the Fury,
You are right there. But if I gave you that impression, I’m sorry for that. It wasn’t my intention to start this big debate like it is now, which I know now nothing what my point was in the first place.
It was just a feeling what I had of what is happening behind the scenes, and of course I can’t know that. And in my mind when I have a small thought it is having his own way, sometimes in a good way when making a theory of what can happen on the show and sometimes with a fear like that. And that fear is only because GoT is very important for me, and got me through a very hard time in my life (Partner sick with cancer, broken up after hard time, losing all my grandparents in a year, divorce parent, depression following GoT was my lightpoint). So it is very dear to me because it hold me together. And every small thing that looks like something else than the story is more important, I will be very defending. And now it was more the feeling that the show will be a political medium instead of a amazing show.
So please don’t get to conclusions about me, because it is clear people don’t know me a bit here.
Jack Hamm,
That was me, and you connect it to race not me. I was connecting it to the build of the characters. Hardened, looking like they lived in winter. Could win a big fight against white walkers. I never said it was due to their color.
But I’m done defending myself, to people twisting words and meaning of sentences to make their point and beating a person down for an opinion that is not as black and white as their own.
I was always the first person to defend asylum seekers in my country when some idiot don’t understand they come from warzones. And defending the marrakech that is voted in the EU, when half my country is against it. But because of one sentence taken out of context I’m the bad guy here.
Ps. I’m not mad or angry or something against anyone (maybe myself for letting myself go to much). I’m just tired of defending myself and being misunderstand. It cost me a lot of energy.
I have much respect for people here and the mods. And I hope they understand I was not trying to hurt anyone in any way.
Cersei’s Brain,
Be careful. That same line was used by an EA executive with the whole Battlefield V controversy and it didn’t end well.
TLJ problems were the very script.
Let’s turn the whole solem and climatic ending from TFA into a bad joke.
Let’s turn nazi General Hux into a buffoon within the five first minutes of the movie.
Hey Finn, we’re gonna put you into the most irrelevant plot alongside a cringy Benicio del Toro and a Phasma that is a walking meme.
Carrie, you’ll have the honor of being into a sequence that will broke totally the suspension of disbelief.
Eonwe,
I think that is the point. There’s a theory in the fandom that the First Men was catchall for various ethnic groups that came from Essos and settled in Westeros. The Long Night acted as a sort of bottle neck, and then the Andals Invaded a few thousand years after that. So Westeros during the Dawn Age could’ve been a very diverse place.
Jai,
I remember this! Yes was a super interesting discovery, and to think a 10% of Europe’s today’s population still has their genome too.
Maybe George took that into consideration btw as they used to eat human flesh too. (I’m thinking Jojen paste 😏) Maybe not, he probably thought Jojen paste before these genetic results.
I also wonder (like some poster up above) why anyone thinks this is Westeros based only anyway?! Once they said the Long Night, I automatically assumed Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa and most of Essos. Just because they mention CotF it means nothing. GoT was Westeros based and we still spent with Dany 5 seasons in Essos.
I think the set in North Ireland will stand for Westeros, while the Canary Islands much likely will stand for the Summer Islands.
Here my two cents on the plot:
A family of Summer Islander will shipwreck in Westeros (likely Stormlands) where they’ll try to gather new food and wood in order to rebuild their lost ship(s), so they can get back home, while alsto trying to survive/befriend to the ostile tribes of westerosi First Men.
Meanwhile, bored out by the long wait (possibly months) the little childs could go out in the wild to hunt and explore, only to get cought and enslaved/taken thralls or simply captured for interrogation and brought far away in the process.
This will force the summer islander community/family to go after them trying to save them/take them back and possibly at the end succending in it.
(continue)
However, just as the first arc ends, Naomi Watts family/tribe of First Men will clash with the Children of the Forest and the Summer Islander will be cought in the middle. Eventually, the little child will befriend the Children of the Forest and broker peace between them and the First Men. Just as everyone thinks is over, some extremist Children, disillusioned by the war with the First Men wich lasted already thousand of years, thinking that their words means nothing and will be eventually broken again, will unleash their ultimate weapon, the White Walkers, who will go immediatly to wreak havoc at the peace camp, butchering the First Men.
Then the Children will show up to thank them (the Walkers) for the good job done, only to bitterly found out they are now
ax-crazy and willing to bring the world under a undead tiranny.
Thus, the Children will apologize with the First Men, make peace again and together fight and eventually defeat the White Walkers. In the end, many will die in the Long Night, sacrificing themselves so that other can live (expecially the parents) but the survivors will create Westeros as we know and love it.
kevin1989,
Yes, but the point I was making — as was the latest DNA research — was that people in Britain still had an African physical appearance “only” 10,000 years ago. They didn’t necessarily all look like Ned Stark etc.
So: Not only does it contradict people’s preconceptions of what Europeans looked like at that time — along with having the added benefit of challenging racist notions — but it also fits in with the GoT franchise’s premise of basing things at least partly on real world history and sometimes challenging popular modern assumptions about historical societies.
If the black characters are indeed supposed to be among the First Men, it’s obviously unclear at the moment whether GRRM planned this all along or the prequel is simply incorporating the latest genetic findings when making casting decisions, but either way it’s a nice touch.
Correct.
And even if the black characters turn out be travellers from outside Westeros instead, or part of storylines based elsewhere on the planet, having a more racially diverse cast in order to reflect mankind more accurately is no bad thing either.
Soman85,
But the narrative tell us otherwise. Both in the main series and in AWOIAF. Wildlings, Starks, Boltons have a very distinctive look. And then we have the south that is a mix of first men, andals and rhoynar (Dorne).
As Tyrion’s states in AGOT Jon has more of the north than his siblings. Long face, dark Grey eyes and dark brown hair.
Of course this cast may be people that aren’t first men. Or perhaps they may portray other races. The Long Night is a time where the giants and children of the forest lived alongside the first men.
Perhaps some actors will portray the white walkers.
So far the current casting tell us that Yi Ti is not gonna appear.
Jai,
As I said I´m put off when I see John Wayne as Genghis Khan. Or the Jesus of King of Kings. When I see a samurai movie I expect to see a Toshiro Mifune.
Black Panther sold a believable Wakanda thanks to it´s black cast.
But hey! I´m the dude who internally screams “Where are Dany´s purple eyes?” “Mark Addy is too short” “Michelle Farley looks too old” “Ygritte and Brienne are too pretty” “Tyrion shouldn´t look so handsome” “Kit Harington looks nothing like Jon Snow” “Why isn´t Bran´s hair ginger?” “The Mountain looks like he is the Hound youngest brother” “That is not the three eyed raven” “Tywin is bald”. I´m obsessed with those details despite enjoying the hell of performances the actors put.
I remember when the Hobbit came. My first thought “That dude is not Thorin”.
Soman85,
You have a point there.
UltimateShipper,
This sounds amazing. You should work on the show.
Jai,
True, but my problem is more lack of muscle men and women. I want warriors. But maybe the first men are more hunter like than warriors.
Your comment make me curious once more. Thank you for that.
Eonwe,
Yes, but there is nothig “political” about that.
Eonwe,
The narrative doesn’t tell you otherwise, because it doesn’t have much to say about it. The First Men as you know them today look like the Starks because they survived the LK. The term First Men just means the first humans to settle Westeros and they could look like anything pre long night and probably did as Essos is a diverse place. The first Long Night was an extinction level event, which created a genetic bottleneck. Who knows who lived in Westeros before that time, we’re talking something like 10K yrs ago.
Kevin1989,
Kevin1989,
I never really questioned who the First Men were, until I saw the video linked below. Outside of the conjecture and theorizing about the Great Empire of the Dawn, it does make sense that waves of migrants from a diverse place such as Essos would settle Westeros and not just one specific ethnicity. And much like IRL when an extinction level event occurs and creates a genetic bottleneck the surviors are much more homogenized. Add in the invasion of the Andals another homogenized group of people and the First Men (which is a pretty apt name for grps of wildly different ppl) takes on a different connotation.
Just pointing this out since I’ve mentioned above that I assumed it would be a series that includes all Planetos:
Mysteries of the East is definitely Essosi. And it looks like it is included with the true origin of the Others in the subject of the series.
Another thing that’s interesting.
Valyria hardly begun to rise yet however, dragonlords and dragontamers existed before according to Asshai legends. Here’s from AWOIAF: “histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria”
There’s also this bit of info that is super curious: “But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came”
Obviously, I have too much time on my hands on the MLK day…
Soman85,
Have you watched the artworks of AWOIAF? They picture the first men, andals, roynar, etc… very clearly. Also it wasn´t 10k years ago. More like 6k-4k years ago. So the time gap is even shorter than the genetics studies of britain.
I find too convenient the event of “every ethnic group of westeros first men pre LN was wiped out except modern northeners”.
TormundsWoman,
Those dragons are ice dragons (semi canon as George himself talked about them). And they made Balerion look small.
Soman85,
Looks interesting. This made me a little bit more hopeful the show will succeed. Maybe we will see dorne being made.
TormundsWoman,
What’s mlk?
Kevin1989,
Unlikely we will see Dorne. Dorne was unified under the Martell banner 2k-1k before AC, when queen Nymeria and the rhoynar survivors of the war against Valyria landed on Dorne and she married Mors Martell.
Before that event Dorne was split into several smaller kingdoms.
Dorne´s unification timeline also makes no sense. Martin could have worked on it a little better.
Eonwe,
Dorne as a political entity didn’t exist, but the lands and people pre Nymeria did. Considering the fact that the first men crossed the arm of Dorne, it must have some of the oldest settlements in Westeros. Why not include it?
It isn’t all that hard to imagine that pre-Andal Westeros was a mosaic of small kingdoms of people of separate ethnicities and cultures (unlike the much more uniform GoT Westeros) and collectively known to the current inhabitants as the “First Men”. And if the Andal invasion wiped out most of them, leaving only a kingdom in the North (who happened to be light skinned), then it’d fit together without breaking canon.
soman85,
Oh yeah. The great houses of Dorne (well every single Westerosi noble house) traces their roots back to the first men. In fact, the first men traveled to Westeros throught Dorne´s arm i first instance. Back then Westeros an Essos were linked by this strecht of land. Then histories tell us that the children of the forest greenseers sunked it to prevent more first men from arriving. First men just built ships.
And that´s a very different Dorne from the current one.
Heck if they wish the could make the tale of how Dawn was forged. When the “first” Dayne watched a comet falling into today´s Starfall and used the skymetal from the comet to create the greatsword wielded by the swords of the morning.
Why D&D? Why couln´t you give us Ice vs Dawn? I waited years for the clash of the dark and pale greatswords.
Interesting reading some of the comments on this thread on MLK Day. Still got a long way to go…
evenwind,
The andals didn´t really wipe the first men. In the end they married the wives and daughters of the first men kings and took their names, coats of arms and words. Like Orys Baratheon would do years later.
South of the neck people are a mix. That´s why you have many houses with andals traits (Lannisters) or first men (Blackwoods) split.
And in Dorne you add the rhoynar looks mixed too.
And according to Fire and Blood, current Riverlands folk are very first men. Because Cregan´s men at the end of the Dance married the widows of the riverlanders.
By Martin´s descriptions:
First Men: Numenorean – Noldor looks. Dark hair. Grey eyes.
Andals: Rohirrim. Blond hair. Blue eyes.
Valyrians: Vanyar elves. Gold/silver hair. Purple eyes.
Eonwe,
Sure, but the winners write the histories. If the Andals were virulent haters of dark skin – like a Planetos variant of Nazis – so that only the light skinned First Men were allowed to survive, then all the histories would still fit.
And yes, it’s a shaky theory. But I’d rather see canon bend a bit than break entirely.
The Bastard,
…so…don’t watch.
I’m sure HBO will miss you dearly. Serves them right for not holding true to the historical facts of a completely made up fantasy world.
People who rail against a diversity agenda ruining their viewing experience are just as much pushing an agenda. They don’t want their fantasy world complicated with things like other ethnicities or gender roles. You don’t like it, exercise your right not to watch.
Maybe they’re planning to make more than one spin-off, covering the entire history of Westeros and Essos chronologically: first The Long Night, then maybe The Andal Invasion, probably The Rise and Fall of Valyria, maybe The Seven Kingdoms before Aegon’s Conquest, probably the Aegon’s Conquest, The Dance of the Dragons, The Blackfyre Rebellion and Robert’s Rebellion… and then, maybe, a remake of GoT. 😀
I know, it’s a lot, unless they dedicate one season only for each era/major event.
The Marvel Cinematic Universe started in 2008 and it’s still going on. Martin’s Universe can last for long too, if they make the prequels properly…
Been busy with work today, so haven’t had a chance to read up and comment again till now.
It’s clear that these conversations online rarely advance in any meaningfully positive direction, and I’ll apologize for my role in stoking it up. I take the blame for it here, just couldn’t let a few comments go- given how the last casting conversations have gone.
Kevin1989- I’m sorry for misunderstanding your true intent. I would caution about how you express your reservations, and encourage you to abandon needless concern for the outcome of something that hasn’t even seen the light of day yet. It doesn’t help that some others come out of the woodwork with support for a “bastardized” representation of what you were saying. Also, I never said you “outraged”- I just said that I can’t watch something like the character I mentioned in breakfast of Tiffany’s without feeling rage. This is the unfortunate reality of traditional Hollywood/USA “programming” for decades, and I see the trend towards real inclusive representation, versus the typical typecast characature that have traditionally been included in Hollywood, as only a good thing.
My main points, before I exit this conversation for good:
More accurate representation of reality does not equate to creative death. Storytelling is good or bad, regardless of the color of skin/gender/sexual orientation of those cast to deliver the lines and appear on the screen.
Inclusion is a good thing.
And finally, we don’t know anything about the story here, so jumping ship or expressing concern based on the diversity of cast as currently announced is ridiculous, and shines a light on one’s true motives or feelings. Like Sue, I have no tolerance for intolerance, and I believe that if our species is going to survive, intolerance is one of those human hangouts that absolutely has to die.
As I’m writing this, Public Enemy’s ‘fight the power’ just came on the radio. On that note, I’’m out. Peace.
Sunfyre,
Indeed.
In some countries, 2016 helped us understand how little progress has been made. Political victories were won using a policy program built entirely on a bedrock of hate.
The promised land? Maybe not in our lifetimes. But as Beric would say..good people still have to fight the enemy every day.
No tolerance for hate. None. Never. Nope.
Sister Kisser,
I heard that before, I sometimes have a hard time understanding myself. Sometimes I say something to my partner and he said something back and I though he wasn’t listening. But I just said it in a wrong way.
And your right intolerance should never be accepted and was never my intention. My fear was not fueled because of hatred of races or some kind. I liked diversity when done right. Grey’s anatomy for instance or the first seasons of shameless us, Luther and can name many more. But I think I fear the Dr who route. The new writer totally disrespect the lore and story that was told before or understand the fans why they watch the show. His characters are blend. But they are diverse. And he thinks he can get away with it because once fans adres his lack of creativity in which the fans mean the lore the craziness of things happening he attack the fans for not being tolerant enough. He use that argument for his lack of understanding the lore, is has lost a certain crazyness feeling. He is a fine writer just not a good dr who writer. Because of that disappointment I’m very afraid other sagas will meet that route. What I like with D&D is that they are fantasy horror fans and that was needed for got. They understand the story.
And your right that fear should be said after the airing of the first episode. And grrm is involved so everything should be okay. For me the most important thing is that every character no matter their race, sexuality, gender etc need to be fleshed out like in got. Real characters with story progression.
This is simply untrue and completely unfair. The argument about “diversity ruining things” is just that you may sacrifice logic or realism for the sake of inclusion, and that doesn’t make sense.
If you were casting a show about feudal Japan, hopefully you wouldn’t cast white actors. You’d logically have a 90% Japanese cast.
Same thing if you’re making a movie about Africa. You’d have mostly black actors.
Black Panther was almost an all Black cast, and that was absolutely the right decision. In fact it was the ONLY decision. Casting other ethnicities would have been utterly absurd. Black Panther is a fantastic film in part because it tries to be true to the cultures it is depicting. Even though Wakanda is fictional, it draws on real African cultures.
I think a lot of people want the same thing from Game of Thrones and its prequel. Many people, myself included, were led to believe that the First Men of the world of Ice and Fire were basically the equivalent to Northern Europeans. When you see how they cast Wildlings and Starks, that’s the impression you get. And people want consistency between both shows.
Many of us were also under the impression that this prequel was going to be mostly about the First Men. Hence it seemed that most of the cast would probably be Scandinavian or English, with quite a few Tormund and Karsi type characters.
Now we may be mistaken about what the show is exactly about, in which case, fine, the cast is perfectly good. But if the show does end up being about what we thought, then it makes sense to be slightly puzzled by the casting announcements.
Very few of the actors, whether white or black, fit the bill for what people thought this show would be like.
I personally don’t care, hell, give me an all Black cast and I’ll be thrilled to watch it, but in that case give us a setting that feels right.
Just like if you were gonna have a mostly Asian cast, then give me a show about Yi Ti (which would be awesome, by the way).
Kevin1989,
You’re a lot more open to having a reasonable discussion on these issues than most. So kudos to you.
This sort of reasoning can be dangerous though, because it is entirely subjective and slightly hypocritical. You yourself are being intolerant of other people’s opinions because YOU deem them to be bigoted. But that’s just your interpretation, and your interpretation can be mistaken sometimes.
If we start censoring opinions we don’t like, then we aren’t being tolerant. Not to mention that doing so basically enables you to just censor anyone and anything. All you have to say is “Your opinion is intolerant in some way, so I’m going to stop you from being able to speak”.
It’s obvious how this can be abused and misused. At the end of the day, tolerating diverse opinions is fundamental to an open society. If someone says something you don’t like, just address their arguments and dismantle them.
That’s much more honest and much more fair than having a zero tolerance policy for controversial opinions.
And if someone really is racist or sexist or whatever, then dismantling their arguments should be trivially easy. When the truth and logic are on your side, you can easily use them to put your opponent to shame.
But when people are just saying they want a geographically logical cast, and you accuse them of bigotry in order to shut them up by saying “well we can’t have any tolerance for intolerance”, then you’re essentially just behaving like an authoritarian.
Nick20,
Best part of a setting in Yi Ti, the moment people realize that the main character is Sun Wuukong gender flipped.
4 settings can be extracted from AWOIF.
Yi Ti.
Westeros and the tale of the fellowship… I mean the Last Hero.
The Empire of Dawn and the tale of Hyrkoon (aka Azor Ahai).
The Rhoyne freezing and the Rhoynar water mages.
This.
In the world of Ice and Fire, the term “First Men” doesn’t mean the first humans, it means the first people who came to Westeros. And the first people who came to Westeros were the ancestors of the Wildlings, as well as the ancestors of Northerners like the Starks and the Boltons.
Ah, well, there we go, then. L-:
And that ‘bottleneck’ explanation makes perfect sense.
Very true. This raises the possibility that this show may have an even larger scale than Game of Thrones. We may have stories set in Westeros, others set in the Free Cities (or whatever was there 8000 years ago), and others set in places like the Summer Isles, Asshai, Ghis, or even Sothoryos.
I would be super excited for that.
Nick20,
I have been saying this. You can’t sell me a setting and them proceed to portray it as anything but what fits the setting.
Wakanda feels genuine in both BP and IW thanks to it’s casting and design.
The Witcher series feels real because CD Project knew where it’s cultural roots were. Netflix casting enraged the polish and Eastern Europeans.
300 was a constant eyeroll on my part. Didn’t know that Persians were Mordor Orcs.
You try to make a movie about Genghis Khan or Cleopatra. And then cast good actors that sadly doesn’t fit the characters.
You make a movie about China but cast my fellow Spanish countrymen as Chinese. Well excuse me if I can’t take it seriously.
Someone made a movie about ancient Egipt mythology. Then why are the gods a Danish and Scotsman? Why two of his main characters are blonde dudes?
Can’t someone voice that the casting does not fit in a Westeros setting? You are a racist even when you voice that even the white actors doesn’t look like what we have been told the first men are supposed to be?
Nick20,
Free Cities are ruled out because 8 out 9 were founded by the Valyrian Freehold as colonies. The 9th also has close ties to Valyria because it was founded by valyrians slaves who scaped.
I should mention that Melissandre of Ashai isn’t actually from said land.
Sure, but that’s why I said “whatever was there before”. I’m assuming there could have been ancient tribes in the region that would later become the Free Cities.
As for Melisandre, the books and wiki state she hails from Asshai. What makes you say she isn’t ?
Yes, I also think Kevin has been open and positively engaged in the discussion. I am clearer on his thinking and intent.
Honestly, the white men they cast may be my biggest issue. They just don’t seem to fit in the world of Ice and Fire at all, and by most accounts aren’t even competent actors. Can’t really imagine who they’re playing.
The black actors could play characters from other parts of the world, and it would work fine.
People like Toby Regbo, not so much.
Nick20,
Maybe instead of Westeros and the first men these actors will portray andals in their homeland Andalia.
Or maybe the makeup department will do a Supreme job and turn then into rough northerners.
I couldn’t agree more.
You make some good points here. However, after reading back to the top of the conversation, I realize I was more at odds with The Bastards comments that “forced inclusion is the death of creativity” and even Kevin’s comment that he’s not interested in a story about “the first women”. He has since flushed out his original meaning/intention, and it may very well be that the “joke” just did not sit well with me and I misinterpreted his meaning and overreacted. In this case, I may have been mistaken.
The biggest point I take issue with is Bastard’s comment regarding “forced inclusion”. Part of this is a holdover from a previous thread that I was not involved in, was disgusted by, and am also too lazy to go dig it up, so I’ll stick to the Bastard’s comment here.
Ignoring the fundamental fact that thus-far, we know basically nothing of the story this show will take on,
a) he is assuming that the effort to include a diverse cast is because of a desire to fill a diversity quota, based on what he perceives to be the product of an environment controlled by a progressive political or social agenda, rather than what is dictated by the story.
b) he thinks the product will suffer as a result
If you want to defend these assumptions, then you are adding your support to what certainly seems an intolerant position. I understand you have rhetorical minutiae to fall back on regarding where this story will take place, and what peoples and regions will be explored. To that end, I suggest you wait and see what the story encompasses before you pass judgement on whether the show went out of it’s way to include people simply for the sake of this “forced inclusion”. I’m not accusing anyone of bigotry for the sake of shutting them up. I’m saying, yet again, WE KNOW NOTHING. That means we don’t have a conclusive reference by which to judge whether a cast is “geographically logical” or not. Furthermore, in invoking “blackface”- I am suggesting that hollywood has come a long way (despite how long it must yet still go) to represent the world as it is, as opposed to how some would like it to be. I cannot get my brain around how or why that could ever be a bad thing.
Regarding me acting like an authoritarian. I stand by my statement above. If we humans are to survive, we need to establish a social environment based not only on tolerance, but acceptance. The world is only getting smaller, and we have to figure this out. The human deference to intolerance, and the forces that would both reinforce and capitalize on that to their own ends, is at the center of every modern source of social conflict. I do not think this is an authoritarian position. Finding compromise through the discussion of incongruent perspectives is in no way an authoritarian act- it is the ultimate demonstration of acceptance, and the foundation of democracy- indeed the opposite of authoritarianism.
Dang. I thought I was gonna back away. I appreciate your, and Kevin’s willingness to communicate constructively on what is always gonna be a heated topic.
Well, I don’t disagree with any of that. Discussion is exactly what I’m advocating for. I mentioned authoritarianism because I thought your comment about not tolerating intolerance was sort of a slippery slope towards censorship, which I’m very much opposed to.
Discussion is always fine, obviously, and as you say, the opposite of authoritarian.
My only point was that I still believe in allowing seemingly intolerant or potentially intolerant views to be expressed. People must be able to express their opinion.
I will disagree with them vehemently, criticize them ferociously, and use every argument and fact I can find to deconstruct their warped views, but at the end of the day, I will still let them express those views.
And I think we should all be careful to not be too eager to label others as bigots. It can be easy to defame someone based on a mistaken interpretation of what they said, or meant to say.
You aren’t guilty of this, but many in this comment section have been.
Anyway, I also very much appreciate your constructive and kind approach.
Nick20,
There’s wanting logical consistency. And then there’s complaining about some sort of nefarious Hollywood diversity agenda. The post I responded to was not expressing a reasonable argument about expectations based on the book, as you did. It was railing against the casting as if someone had committed a plot.
Given that I’m an academic who studies feudal Japan, I’ve had my share of cringe-worthy movie experiences. No, I wouldn’t want an all white cast playing Japanese. However, feudal Japan is a real place that existed. As is Africa, though not Wakanda. Westeros is not. It’s a fantasy world.
Moreover, white actors don’t get put into a non-white majority movie in the name of “diversity.” They get shoe horned in because Hollywood is just now starting to recognize that the world may not need a white lead in order for audiences to watch. See “The Last Samurai” for the mother of all cringes from me, but there are plenty of examples of “white-washing” in movies. The people who get angry about a “diversity agenda” don’t complain one bit about a token white guy randomly plunked down in Asia with a story twisted into pretzels to justify it.
I don’t have a problem with your argument, that expectations were one thing based on what George has said, and the casting is suggesting something different. I think it’s silly to get worked up about it when it’s a fantasy world, and we’re only operating on the barest information that it’s about the Long Night, but not any idea of who or what the story really is. I’d say give it time. But again, my previous response wasn’t directed at you.
B,
Netflix is making some bad casting choices that spits on the original works with this diverse policy.
Did they think about the cultural importance of the Witcher to Slavic Europeans and specially the polish? Seeing the Ciri fallout or Fringilla Virgo it doesn’t looks like they do.
The whole turning Shun into a female is one of the worst moves due to it’s sexiest connotations in their Saint Seiya new series.
And I think these policies are as pernicious as are casting white people onto roles that just aren’t fitting them.
As you said with The Last Samurai (you should watch spain’s dub. The emperor’s speaking is one of the cringiest moments of spain’s dubs). Casting Tom Cruise as the lead because apparently a Japanese cast don’t sell. Nevermind Kurosawa proved them wrong decades ago.
Or the casting of a Chinese in a Gheisha’s Memories? Of course that caused a fallout. WW II is still present and problematic in both countries.
What if someone made a Shin Godzilla version with a white cast as the Japanese gov? That would be totally out of place.
I can’t stand Frank Miller’s version of Xerxes. It’s a parody of a man who probably was more cultured that the whole Greek army together.
Making white leads. Putting ethnics for the sakes of ethnics diversities. They’re bad narratives because we live in a world with ethnicals, cultural and religious lines.
Why Africa and Middle East are hot spots? Because elites decided to draw frontiers that ignored the reality and centuries history.
Islamic war against the west? What is this narrative? Did you stop and think that Islamic religion is subjected to multiples interpretations that clash between them? That Islamic countries have their own cultures. Just like Christians are split and clashes between catholics, protestant, orthodox were and are real. Iran, Egipt, Pakistan are Islamic countries are culturally different.
The whole EU is facing an internal crysis because it’s countries have their own clashes. Spain is facing internal conflicts for this same reason. Hell this trival outlook is taken to the extreme with people from cities a couple of miles away looking at each other with derision. People from this city neighborhood looking down at the other. Sometimes it goes to the level of football teams or political parties.
Should we embrace a diverse world? Should we strive to understand others? Yes. They’re worthy goals. But at the same time the world is more complex than just black and white. Right and wrong. It’s been in mankind history all along.
Man I sound like I’m in the middle of a mad rant.
The only thing that seemed as equally “forced” and unnecessary (at least for me) was the black ambassador of Elizabeth at the court of Mary Stuart (in Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots) – and the dozens other black lords and ladies in waiting at both courts. Nobody disputes black people in Tudor times. There were musicians, servants, guards, merchants etc. To show that would be correct and it should be shown (for it is true). But to show black people in high ranking political positions and aristocratic ranks at that time period in England/Scottland is simply historically incorrect – no matter how politically correct it may seem for some people today. Just my opinion regarding the problem of “forced” nowadays.
Of course there is no such historical correctness in Game of Thrones (as it is fictional); therefore I’m willing to give them the benefit of doubt until I see the final product.
Soman85,
Thank you.
Eonwe,
Yi Ti would be amazing. I hope HBO will make multiple smaller prequels and sequels. All between 2 and 5 seasons. Or maybe a prequel that follow the way TD tell their story. every one or 2 seasons a new story.
Eonwe,
Casting the right people is very important to me, and it works both ways. For instance in troy Brat Pitt should never have been cast as Achilles. They should have cast a greek looking fellow in my opinion.
Sister Kisser,
Better wait. If the show is great we can enjoy it. Is it indeed true they are going the dr-who route, we can call out HBO and let them fix it for the second season. I shouldn’t worry about things like this. It’s a tv-show and better worry about personal stuff.
Thanks for understanding me, make me feel better.
ps. your not really a sister kisser right? haha
Nick20,
True, both sides using certain sentences to shut up the other side without using logical arguments. Racists etc for the one side and the truly racists using the worlds like libtard, both I dislike, just use logic
kevin1989,
Ah Troy. Written by Benioff if I remember right. As someone told me “Homer must be restless on his grave”.
I have several amusing moments from when I saw it.
Sean Bean isn’t casted as a bad guy. And on top of it he doesn’t dies! A miracle!
When Brad Pitt makes his first appearance my dad says “He wasn’t so fit in Titanic” which was followed by me “Dad, that guy was Leonardo Di Caprio. This dude is Brad Pitt”.
Héctor rides for the armory as Agamenon’s ships are landing. We see the caos in the streets. What one is expecting. And then you spot it! In the middle of the shot! It’s a llama. My cousin is surprised by my reaction which prompts me to explain that Troy is located in modern Turkey and the llamas are a species from South America.
That you think and assume what is going on with this new show is about “forced inclusion” rather than creativity, story, and a different time and era in ‘Planetos’ says more about you than anyone else.
But go ahead, flaunt your opinion that the presence of a more diverse cast somehow means it was ‘forced inclusion’, it just serves to give people a baseline of how to take other statements you make down the road.
Eonwe,
You do somewhat sound like you’re in the middle of a mad rant, but I’ll assume that’s because you’re passionate about the stories you watch being faithful to the source material. Nothing wrong with that—it’s what we obsess about as fans.
I’m not familiar with Witcher or what Netflix is doing with casting, so I can’t comment on the specifics there.
I know that the commenters here are from across the globe, and so there may be some locality issues that play into how things come across. I’m an American. In larger debates across our country right now, complaining about “putting things in for the sake of diversity” is coded language used by the extreme right to discredit anything that threatens their white bubble. That’s very clearly where the Bastard’s comment was coming from. It’s also very clear that it’s not where Kevin is coming from, as I tried to make clear in my response to him.
You seem to have the same reasoning as Kevin, and if I followed correctly you’re from outside the US (Spain? Forgive if I’m wrong, and my phone is too small to keep scrolling back and forth). I don’t know if complaints about “diversity” are used in the same manner there, but when someone (not you) talks about blinders and diversity agendas, it’s clear they have an agenda of their own.
Personally I’d sacrifice a second or two of “huh, that’s not what I expected” and maybe something not living up to my preconceptions if it means more actors of different backgrounds get opportunities. It’s hard to cast a black or Asian or middle eastern or whatever leading actor if we don’t have them as supporting actors. That doesn’t mean I think the lead First Man should be Thai—it means that if there are ways that make sense in the story for us to have characters played by Thai, or Kenyan, or Mexican, or whatever actors, I’m for it. Since we know next to nothing about the script and what’s going to happen, it seems premature to get angry about it.
Besides, haven’t 7 seasons of GOT taught us that whatever we think, the DDs will make decisions that we don’t like? Why would the new production be any different, with even hazier source material? I for one am appalled that neither Daario has a beard dyed blue and green. Rather than rant about diversity ruining something before we see it, I think it’s more fun (if also futile) to try to project how it might fit in.
Sorry, in the above response to Eonwe I referenced a response to Kevin, when I meant Nick. Point it the same, though—your responses have been quantifiably different than the “diversity agenda” response, so I don’t really think we’re arguing opposite sides.
I am hoping at least one of the characters gets a blue beard. That’s all I ask.
Eonwe,
I didn’t know that it was a movie from Benioff. :O
Haha and did he believe you that it was leonardo on the titanic?
B,
Blue eyes also okay instead of a beard?
Has anybody seen anything in HBO’s cast calls (or the actors already chosen) that would point to the Children of the Forest? If I remember correctly, the last time they were looking for “tiny women with wide-set eyes”. Maybe they’re going to have to go with the techniques that were used in LOTR and the Hobbit movies to shrink normal sized actors?
kevin1989,
No. No. He thought that Brad Pitt in Troy was actually Leonardo di Caprio. I merely pointed him that he was mixing the two.
Fictional universes need to be given much more room than they currently are when, over a period of time, TV and film becomes more open and welcoming to people of different races/creeds/genders, and not rely on some lazy expression that a universe had been “established” as a certain thing that is somehow completely immutable across time. Star Wars was birthed at a time when most major players in Hollywood were white – the only major non-white role in the original trio is Lando – but the idea that this serves exclusively as canon from this day until the end of days is myopic at best. Particularly when, for years, Hollywood shoehorned light-skinned people into films where they didn’t belong at all, eliminating those of other colors. (And see Aloha and Ghost in the Shell if you think it still doesn’t happen.)
So if you want to tell me you’re making the definitive filmed biography of George Washington and have decided to cast Cardi B, then yes, I’m going to raise an eyebrow, as it strains credulity. (The more fantastical Bubba Ho-Tep, on the other hand, puts Ossie Davis in as JFK, and of course it works).
But if your fealty to the “established universe” has you screaming about Idris Elba as Heimdall, well, it’s time to rethink your thinking.
And as Sister Kisser has said multiple times, we simply don’t know what the scope of this production is or may be, where it is set, and what kind of story we’re going to land on.
B,
Yes I’m Spanish. And I’m going to be honest. Identitic politics are used by the extreme nationalist parties from the right to gain momentum.
And the extreme left puts also extremes speeches.
Here in Spain the extreme left gained support in the economical crisis. But now the voting is veering to the extreme right because people felt that the left gave empty promises only to become part of the corrupt sistem. So now they turn to the opposite because they want to believe on something.
And when you detach yourself from it you realize with dread that it looks frighteningly similar to the 20’s and 30’s of the XX century.
kevin1989,
No, will absolutely ruin all enjoyment of anything for me, and I will be forced to detail in long rambling posts just exactly how substituting blue eyes instead of a blue beard is disrespectful to the source text and my Tyroshi heritage.
Eonwe,
You ain’t just whistling Dixie, to use a very ironic phrase, given the discussion.
Politics the world over these days is enough to make us want to escape into fantasy. Let’s enjoy obsessing over the minutia while remembering it’s supposed to be entertainment.
I still only have a problem with JCB… because he suuuucks!! 😛
GreatJon of Slumber,
Idris Elba made me raise an eyebrow. Just like Nicolaj Coster Waldau, Gerard Buttler and Geoffrey Rush made me raise both eyebrows when they were portraying Horus, Seth and Ra. But Thor was a good blockbuster with heart. God’s of Egypt no comment. At least I watched it in my streaming service instead of paying a ticket.
As for Ghost in the Shell. That door was closed with Dragon Ball Involution.
Ghost in the Shell is there with Akira, Princess Mononoke and Chihiro’s Journey to watch it being desecrated.
Besides, the Wachowski sisters pay to the original it’s best homage with The Matrix.
GreatJon of Slumber,
I will never understand how some people can accept the existence of space Bigfoot, giant slugs that run crime families, and lizardmen bounty hunters, but oh holy crap a black storm trooper?? A woman Jedi??? It’s crazy.
B,
The problem isn’t Rey being a woman. The problem is Rey badly written. Besting in a light saber fight the baddy with 0 training raises eyebrows. Because you watched Vader trolling Luke in ESB. Same with force overpowering said baddy.
Then Rian Johnson comes and saiys that Rey downloaded via Bluetooth Kylo’s manual on how the Force works.
Rian Johnson congratulates himself in subverting Star Wars. But sadly Obsidian and Chris Avellonebdit it already and better. With one of the best character ever. Despite Microsoft not letting them finish their work.
The best part? No matter how much Avellone rants and tears apart the Supreme McGuffin in the end he let’s the player know that those are his views. And you can take or reject it. Yet neither choice is the correct one. It’s up to you.
JJ and Rian can only dream about writing a character as Kreia.
Nah, that’s not a universally held opinion. On the internet the hate is magnified by all the anti-SJW MRA types screaming into their twitter/reddit/4chan echo chambers. They moved from crying about Ghostbusters to TLJ. Now it seems they are waiting for “The Long Night” and Amazon’s LOTR series to get pissed off about something new. At the end of the day the character writing in episodes 7 and 8 is fine and far superior to Lucas’ prequels.
One of the things I love about this site, is the intelligent interaction, the articulate members and the ability to go way off topic but still engage the reader. Can’t hope to join you guys but I read and learn x
1) For me, as long as the creative errors are towards greater inclusion then I am fine.
2) It will take some time for the creative industries to get this right – they are still building their diversity muscles so to speak. There will be some self-conscious, clumsy efforts but over time it will get better. And as consumers were are also very self-conscious viewers as we move to a more inclusive way of living – that will also get easier.
3) However, bad TV, bad movies, bad art will still be made. It is not because of the diversity or not, it is because failed movie etc are a part of life.
4) I also think writers/creators will also produce more diverse stories. I would venture to bet that if GRRM and George Lucas were writing today the “world built” would be diverse from day one.
5) As for use of people of color in surprising places – I am fine with it. Get everyone included.
Years ago, Denzel Washington was in Much Ado about Nothing as Don Pedro. He was fabulous. maybe he was playing a Moorish guy..not sure .
6) Viewers will go along even when the phenotypes do not exactly match.
Everyone knows that the Lannisters are very blonde – Dink (more so) and NCW (less so) have been playing very blond men but using dark hair for years. Yet every GOT fans knows that the Lannisters are all blond. Their blondeness is a big plot point re paternity. No-one complains.
GreatJon of Slumber,
I like all of this!
Mango,
Don Pedro=Mr Peter. In fact currently Don or feminine Doña in Spain is used only on very polite conversations or with men and woman who you have a deep respect. For example current king Philip VI and queen Letizia are called Don Felipe and Doña Letizia. Their daughters are also called doña even if they are childs. Former king John Charles I and queen Sophia are also called Don Juan Carlos y Doña Sofía.
Amongst football (Soccer) supporters Don is also used for players who are greatly respected not only for their skills but for their conduct both in the field and outside. In football talks you´ll hear people saying Don Xavi Hernández, Don Andrés Iniesta.
And Denzel Washington looks nothing like a moorish. Trust me.
Who cares? It’s an actor playing a role. I don’t understand the rigidity.
Sunfyre,
Is not rigidity. It´s our preconceptions due to how we have been shaped by the societies in which we were raised.
He thought that Denzel´s Washington was portraying a moorish man. And I don´t know the whole context but what he preceived and what is reality clashes.
Here in Spain us citizens are viewed as those crazy yankees who still got death penalty, got boners wielding guns, have that NRA and 2nd amendment nosense, portrays themselves as the good guys who save the world, and the list of clichés goes on. We call northern islamic people moorish (and it is done with racism) when that´s untrue. Because north africans are not just moorish.
And that´s the world we live in.
Eonwe,
Eonwe, thanks. I appreciate the cultural lesson. I speak Spanish – not native but enough for professional purposes. I have been to Spain (more than once) and Morroco and have seen Berbers although I would not say I am an authority on the Moors.
Let me be clearer – I am saying that Denzel Washington a black guy did an excellent job as a non-black character. Movie was excellent.’
Yes, and everyone knows what a Don is…..crime boss on this side of the world but we know Don is a symbol of respect. Mostly thanks to Marlon Brando – an American from Nebraska playing an Italian.
Mango,
Can´t speak for others but when I´m in nerd mode I start in my head “where´s your purple eyes Danys? You´re too short Robert. You´re too pretty Jon Snow. You too Tyrion. And you Ygritte. Lysa you´re too boney. And Cat you are so old. Etc…”
And then I tell myself what a nerd I am.
Eonwe,
I often see several different performances of the same play (often years apart) and I am often quite keen on seeing how a different cast and director handle the same script (or how they shift the script). This requires me to be willing to keep several versions of the “same” play or characters in my mind. Can be fun. Diversity can take many different forms.
But on some things I can be a stickler for exactness – usually work areas not play. We are all different.
Mango,
Forgot about the Godfather and Marlon Brando because I was thinking from as a spanish.
And believe me I don´t doubt for a single second about Denzel Washington portrayal. Because he has show time and time again that he´s one of the greatest alive. Idris Elba performance in Thor Ragnarok? I can´t complain about it even is my mind is telling me that this nordic guy looks out of place.
Like I said several times my head whispers “Mark Addy too short” but he´s nailing Robert Baratheon and is owning the stage. Tywin Lannister is bald. Yeah but Charles Dance is awesome.
I really don’t care for Regbo. We shall see though. Again, I need Season 8 before I can begin to get truly excited for this.
Eonwe,
Yes, Charles Dance was awesome!
I appreciate your larger point – there has to be some integrity to each portrayal of character and scene and story. It must ring true in some emotionally satisfactory way. Care is needed to remain true to the spirit of the art we are enjoying.
Errol Flynn Robin Hood. Costner version. Russel Crowe.
I doubt that today someone would shot a Robin Hood movie with the bright costume of the 30´s. But then you see Flynn or Basil Rathbone on stage or dueling each other and everything works.
So does the gritty version of Costner. Your forget about where Prince John is because Alan Rickman is playing the villain. And back then in the 90´s Morgan Freeman didn´t raise the controversy that today would.
The world changes. Life find it´s way. But it gives confort when you see people going crazy with Dragon Ball, how you can speak with someone from the other side of the planet about these series with incest, murders, zombies, dragons…
Those things that people enjoy together are worth it. And I think that it is sad when TLJ creates this split. Or the whole ghostbusters 2016 resurrected by Ghostbusters 3 and people start labelling each other as [tag].
He probably does, but that’s his personal life 😛
Sorry couldn’t resists.
I think he can do great when given a script that works for him. In sweeny Todd he did well in my opinion. I hadn’t much hope for Frank Dilane in Fear the Walking dead but he did great especially later on in the show.
Whilst it’s hard to become too excited about the prequel I really hope the idea of using a diverse cast feels natural. The principle is absolutely a good thing but if we start seeing lots of black people at the Wall (or North) and white people in the Summer Isles, or women leading in areas which established in Thrones were mail orientated (or vice versa) it’s going to suck.
Anyway my point is this needs to be done right where it’s natural and in line with established history from Thrones and ASOIF otherwise it’s going to be divisive.
I suspect we are looking at Spring 2020 before we see it on TV Jack, the majority of filming is seemingly scheduled for this Autumn.,
Eonwe,
Having trouble understanding your argument here. Are you referring to potential live-action versions or to the English dubs? Because if it’s the latter, I have to disagree strongly on Mononoke (the rest I don’t like, so it matters less). I think Neil Gaiman (yes, that Neil Gaiman) picked a really good cast (aside from Claire Daines). And yes, I do prefer dubs over subs, but that’s a topic for another site.
As to the casting, it sounds like much ado about nothing. We haven’t even gotten much info about who has been cast, only that some casting slots (in what is likely to be a very large cast) were filled. Honestly, none of this seems newsworthy. When we get some actual names, then I might have something to say.
Elessar,
Dang it. That should have read, who has been cast in what role.
On a side note, since Eonwe mentioned The Conqueror (the John Wayne Genghis Khan movie), I should also bring up the fact that that movie was also produced by Howard Hughes and filmed downwind of a nuclear testing site (!!!). If any of that intrigues you to learn more, seek out the Cinema Snob’s review of it. It’s way more entertaining than the actual movie.
Elessar,
Did Gaiman have a hand in the production of the English dubbed version of princess Mononoke? I did not know this.
Also. Anything regarding downwinders is intriguing to me. Northern AZ and southern UT are some of the most beautiful places I’ve ever seen. Monument Valley is incredible.
If you’re into polygamy, that’s the place to be. Government pretty hands off after generations of cancer and deformities…
Will have to check out that review, and hen maybe the film as well
Jon Snowed:
Ehhhhh… I’m going to respectfully disagree with you. Like several other commenters here, I hate a) the trend of shoehorning certain characters or ideas into stories for the express purpose of tapping into the zeitgeist–and, therefore, the pocketbook–and b) the trend of re-making older all-male movies as all-female movies. I have no interest in either the new Ghostbusters or the new Ocean’s, even though I really like certain cast members of both; if I’m in the mood for a great female-driven film I’d much rather sit down with Thelma & Louise, or Aliens, or The Widow of Saint-Pierre, or Eve’s Bayou, or pretty much anything starring Barbara Stanwyck.
But I digress.
This prequel is set, what, 8,000 years before the Westeros we know and somewhat love? Surely, the social dynamics of the place have changed a wee bit in eight millennia? I, for one, wouldn’t object at all to seeing women realistically portrayed in positions of power, in a context far different from what we’re familiar with (e.g., Cersei being forced, for most of her life, to use the “soft power” of her familial relationships with ruling men). For instance, in some hunter-gatherer societies–where issues of land ownership and, therefore, paternity and inheritance–were nonexistent, women had a far more equitable share of power and decision-making than women generally did in the medieval world that A Song of Ice and Fire is based on. To use another example: In dozens (if not hundreds) of Native American societies, at the time of European conquest women held far more real power than they did in Europe (the occasional queen excepted); they were stripped of that power by force when Christianity was imposed upon them. (For a fascinating look at just one such example, I highly recommend Moon, Sun and Witches: Gender Ideologies and Class in Inca and Colonial Peru, by Irene Silverblatt.) I know very little about early European history, but I imagine the social landscape was similarly very different for women before Abrahamic religions introduced the concepts of original sin, the Fall, the Immaculate Conception, etc.
In short: Given a context that served the story, I would love to see a Planetos long before the rise of the Faith of the Seven. A Planetos where the very concept of a “walk of shame” might be unthinkable. And an exploration of how and why that ideology arose, and how it fundamentally (no pun intended) changed the social landscape of the early world.
Wolfish,
👍👍👍
Eight thousand years ago, much of the real world was indeed matriarchal. We worshipped the moon and the lunar calendar was our guide. It was like this long before we began worshipping “the son”.
Could be a very interesting way for the show to go.