Welp, it’s that time of year again, nerds. No, not wabbit season, it’s duck EMMY SEASON!!!!! And as predicted, Game of Thrones candidates are all over the submitting ballot, from the acting categories as assumed, to cinematography, and everything else in between. While GOT has won its fair share of Emmys (aka, the most ever for a Primetime show, and still growing), it’s always come up curiously short in the category that people end up talking about most. I’m referring to, of course, the acting categories. To date, Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister) is the only acting nominee to ever win an Emmy (3 out of 7, in fact). It is my devout hope that in GOT’s season 8 victory lap, we are able to break this curse. A full write up of Emmy speculation will come in the following weeks, but in the meantime, let’s check out who is in contention for nominations this year. Here are the candidates currently sitting on the Emmy ballot:
1. Outstanding Casting for a Drama Series
2. Outstanding Cinematography For A Multi-Camera Series (3 candidates)
- The Long Night (803)
- Fabian Wagner, ASC, BSC, Director of Photography
- The Last of the Starks (804)
- David Franco, Director of Photography
- The Iron Throne (806)
- Jonathan Freeman, ASC, Director of Photography
3. Outstanding Period Costumes
- The Bells (805)
4. Outstanding Directing For A Drama Series (3 candidates)
- The Long Night (803)
- Miguel Sapochnik
- The Last of the Starks (804)
- David Nutter
- The Iron Throne (806)
- David Benioff, D.B. Weiss
5. Outstanding Hairstyling For A Single-Camera Series (3 candidates)
- The Long Night (803)
- Hair team includes department head plus four others. Of 22 actors, 4 had lace wigs. Of 16 pictures/stunt doubles, 12 had lace wigs. Using dirt made of hair gels/oils mixed with dirt powder and dry shampoos. Fresh blood plus fresh scab. Episode 803 had continuity jumping pre/post battle, cleaning actors up on set. 25 crowd hairdressers did over 400 extras. Special lace wigs for the dead in the crypt/library. 7 Whitewalker wigs, 2 giant’s wigs.
- Kevin Alexander, Department Head Hairstylist
Candice Banks, Key Hairstylist
Nicola Mount, Hairstylist
Rosalia Culora, Hairstylist
- Kevin Alexander, Department Head Hairstylist
- Night King full silicone head and hands make-up, contact lenses and dentures. 6 White Walkers, each consisting of 9 silicone appliances, dentures, contact lenses, lace hair pieces. The Hound: Silicone burn makeup. Bespoke Wights silicone make-ups : 9x in Library scene, 9x mummified wights in the Crypt, Hero Wight which attacks Arya on battlement. Plethora of Wights silicone make-ups throughout the battle. Giant Wight, silicone head and hands make-up. Many various wounds and blood gags.
- Emma Faulkes, Special Makeup Effects Artist
Paul Spateri, Special Makeup Effects Artist
Chloe Muton-Phillips, Special Makeup Effects Artist
Duncan Jarman, Special Makeup Effects Artist
Patt Foad, Special Makeup Effects Artist
John Eldred-Tooby, Special Makeup Effects Artist
Barrie Gower, Prosthetic Designer
Sarah Gower, Prosthetic Designer
- Emma Faulkes, Special Makeup Effects Artist
- Progressive wounds and injuries applied throughout to tell the story of the battle. Wounds sculpted freehand with thicken sculpting-prosaid, painted with various make up and finished with blood splatter, dirt effects and rubber dust mixture for depth and texture. Character faces created with latex then painted to create broken veins and liver spots for a weathered look. Colodion scars, hair lace beards, laid on Yak hair beards. Frozen effects on facial hair with petroleum wax.
Jane Walker, Department Head Makeup Artist
Kay Bilk, Makeup Artist
Marianna Kyriacou, Makeup Artist
Nicola Matthews, Makeup Artist
Pamela Smyth, Makeup Artist
- Hair team includes department head plus four others. Of 22 actors, 4 had lace wigs. Of 16 pictures/stunt doubles, 12 had lace wigs. Using dirt made of hair gels/oils mixed with dirt powder and dry shampoos. Fresh blood plus fresh scab. Episode 803 had continuity jumping pre/post battle, cleaning actors up on set. 25 crowd hairdressers did over 400 extras. Special lace wigs for the dead in the crypt/library. 7 Whitewalker wigs, 2 giant’s wigs.
6. Outstanding Main Title Design
7. Outstanding Music Composition For A Series (Original Dramatic Score) (2 candidates)
- A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (802)
- Evyen J Klean, Music Supervisor
- The Long Night (803)
- Ramin Djawadi, Composer
8. Outstanding Actor in a Drama
- Kit Harington (Jon Snow)
9. Outstanding Actress in a Drama
- Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen)
10. Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Drama (5 candidates)
- Alfie Allen (Theon Greyjoy)
- Pilou Asbæk (Euron Greyjoy)
- Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister)
- Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister)
- Richard Dormer (Lord Beric Dondarrion)
- *edit from David – yes, it says “Lord” on the Emmy ballot for him but no others, don’t @ me, please @ them*
10. Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama (4 candidates)
- Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth)
- Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister)
- Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark)
- Maisie Williams (Arya Stark)
11. Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama
- Carice Van Houten (Melisandre)
12. Outstanding Single-Camera Picture Editing For A Drama Series (3 candidates)
- Winterfell (801)
- Crispin Green, Editor
- The Long Night (803)
- Tim Porter, ACE, Editor
- The Iron Throne (806)
- Katie Weiland, ACE, Editor
13. Outstanding Drama
14. Outstanding Sound Editing For A Comedy Or Drama Series (One Hour)
- The Long Night (803)
15. Outstanding Sound Mixing For A Comedy Or Drama Series (One Hour)
- The Long Night (803)
16. Outstanding Special Visual Effects
- The Bells (805)
17. Outstanding Stunt Coordination For A Drama Series, Limited Series Or Movie
18. Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series
- The Iron Throne (806)
- David Benioff, D.B. Weiss
- *edit from David – Um. Good luck guys. It’s right now them vs. the wrath of the Internet, and I say this as someone who unreservedly and unapologetically adored the finale.
- David Benioff, D.B. Weiss
So there you have it. 35 candidates up for nominations for Game of Thrones, although it should be noted that The Last Watch, the documentary special of season 8, is up for quite a few awards itself. And of course, tons of late night and sketch shows that involve GOT to a small or large degree. I’ll follow up in the next few weeks with some speculation about the upcoming nominations, but in the meantime, what do you think?
Nominations will be announced on Tuesday, July 16, and the awards will be broadcast live on Sunday, September 22!
Jonathan Freeman already won 3 Emmys for Boardwalk Empire. I hope he can win again this year. It’s time for GoT to take that Emmy for the Outstanding Cinematography.
#ForTheThrone
They deserve them all.
I’m a little disappointed Rory McCann wasn’t submitted, but I’m not entirely sure how submissions work. Does HBO submit names or do the actors submit themselves? I already said this in another thread, but it’s interesting they only submitted the finale for best writing. David, you’re not alone. I adored the finale as well and am hoping D&D win.
“The Last Watch” documentary is on ballot as well.
My prediction for (main awards) nominations:
Outstanding Directing For A Drama Series
– The Long Night (803)
Miguel Sapochnik
– The Iron Throne (806)
David Benioff, D.B. Weiss
Outstanding Actress in a Drama
– Emilia Clarke (Daenerys Targaryen)
Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Drama
– Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister)
– Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister)
Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama
– Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth)
– Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister)
– Maisie Williams (Arya Stark)
Outstanding Drama
Outstanding Guest Actress in a Drama
-Carice Van Houten (Melisandre)
Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series
– The Iron Throne (806)
David Benioff, D.B. Weiss
Both.
Thanks David! It is fun to speculate about all these choices.
I have a question about this one…
7. Outstanding Music Composition For A Series (Original Dramatic Score) (2 candidates)
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (802)
Evyen J Klean, Music Supervisor
The Long Night (803)
Ramin Djawadi, Composer
I just don’t know, but who is Evyen J Klean, Music Supervisor and why is this person being put up as a potential composition nomination? Maybe you or someone else knows about this. Thanks!
Well… This is nice. I hope Alfie Allen finally gets a nomination. He’s earned and deserved one for ages.
mau,
Thanks
onefromaway,
Maybe he did Jenny of Oldstones?
mau,
Okay, good thought,that could be it. Thanks!
Richard and Gwen are a lovely surprise.
No Bryan Cogman. Really. Wow.
I would have loved to see Rory McCann and Iain Glen nominated. Ah well. To be fair, there aren’t too many I WOULDN’T like to see, I was attached to almost all of them this year!
Music, sound, effects, makeup, costumes but I don’t see anything going for acting (maybe Emilia or Dinklage get nominated as tribute to effort) but no way anything for writing or directing given the terrible reviews and reception of the fans. Musical score was just outstanding and episode 2 was sooo good, wish A Night of the Seven Kingdoms was nominated.
I would be so pleased if we could sweep acting.
Kit, but especially Emilia had great seasons and deserve it for all their hard work over the years.
Maisie deserves best supporting. Unfortunately this is the only season where Lena has nothing to do, and Sophie only slightly more. Great to see Gwen submitted too!
Among the men… I always hope Nikolai might get it but almost certainly will be Peter again which, we’ll at least he had a bit more to do this season.
Yes BCogs deserves an Emmy! Oh well.
Pigeon,
Literally checking the comments to read the Cogman comments. I scrolled through the submissions hoping he got it for A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I can’t believe it. But then again, am I really surprised? SMH
QueenofThrones,
Best episode of season 8. Writing is great.
Gold Derby currently has 7 Game of Thrones actors projected for nominations: Kit in Lead Actor, Emilia in Lead Actress, Peter and Nikolaj in Supporting Actor, and Lena, Maisie, and Sophie in Supporting Actress. If that pans out, it would be a phenomenal haul! It’s probably a little optimistic to assume that they’ll all make it, and if they do, it will likely make it harder for one of them to win due to vote splitting, but hey … I’m ready to be optimistic!
I’ll be rooting particularly hard for Emilia, who I thought gave the best performance of any cast member this year and did her very best work of the entire series. Given Kit’s recent personal struggles, it would be lovely to see him recognized as well. And as great as it would be to see Nikolaj win, I thought Peter had some of his best material in Season 8, so if he were to win again (which would tie a record for the category, I believe) I would have no objections. As for Lena, I know that people are somewhat down on her chances given her relatively limited screentime this season, but screentime has never been the make-or-break factor for the Emmys. If they want to reward her, she’s as great as ever.
I’m happy to see Alfie Allen, Gwendoline Christie, and my dude Richard Dormer on the ballot as well! I’m less optimistic that they’ll be recognized if only because the Emmys tend to go for the top-billed actors, but they’re all deserving. With Carice van Houten now eligible in the Guest Actress category, I wonder if she might be able to sneak in as well. I hope so!
I adored “The Bells” and particularly Miguel’s direction of the King’s Landing sequence, so there was a part of me that wanted to see him recognized for that episode. But I’m not surprised that HBO submitted “The Long Night”. The whole “55 days of night shoots to make the longest cinematic battle ever filmed” narrative is hard to argue with … plus it’s amazing work! I think he has to be considered the favorite to win, and deservingly so. I do hope that David and Dan can also score a nomination for directing the finale as well. They did an outstanding job.
And yes … as someone who loved the final season and the finale, I will be unabashedly rooting for David and Dan to be nominated for writing the finale as well. Not only do I think they deserve it, but after all the crap that’s been flung at them, including that horseshit petition, it would be lovely to see them be honored by their peers. Yes, it’s a shame that Bryan Cogman wasn’t submitted, but I assume it was purely a strategic move by HBO. These things happen.
As for Drama Series … obviously I think Game of Thrones deserves to win! Killing Eve and Ozark are probably its biggest competitors, but GOT’s strength in the tech categories gives it the edge. Plus, if Game of Thrones were to win its fourth Drama Series Emmy, it would tie The West Wing, Hill Street Blues, L.A. Law, and Mad Men for the most victories ever in that category. I’d love to see it collect that honor.
Young Dragon,
Ditto on Rory McCann!!!
Pigeon,
Right?!
Nice. One final screw-you to a loyal colleague. Stay classy D&D and HBO.
Hope Emilia and Ramin get Emmys this year.
Have the nominations for Chernobyl been put up yet?
That is probably going to take all the Emmys this time around.
Both are allowed.
Based on HBO’s awards promo materials, the ones they submitted were Clarke, Harington, Dinklage, Coster-Waldau, Headey, Williams and Turner.
The rest submitted themselves.
Gwendoline Christie was the standout among the supporting ladies for me this year, but I’m dubious she’d ever make it in with no network support.
Supporting actress is a bit barren this year, at least in terms of returning contenders — no Handmaid’s Tale ladies, no Millie Bobby Brown, no Thandie Newton — so the show could collect a lot of nominations there, notwithstanding how sidelined most of them were in the final season. Also true in supporting actor, theoretically, but I’m much less confident there because after the Lannister boys there’s a rapid falling off in terms of stature/prestige. Much as people like Allen, I doubt he’ll make it in.
D&D nominated not only in Outstanding Directing but also in Outstanding Writing !!!! That episode had 15 minutes of dialogue ( is not a joke someone did the job of removing the dialogue, search “Game of Thrones: S08E06 with all dialogue cut ” ) how the hell do they think that is enough material to be selected? why not presenting A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, the only episode with decent writing, I guess their egos got in the way because Bryan Cogman deserved to be considered.
They actually submitted Euron for award nominations… Madness. I can name 10 characters more deserving. The Hound. Jorah. Davos. Greyworm. Qyburn. Varys. Tormund. Sam. Bronn. Fuck it. Throw in Edd to make it an even 10.
Aegon the IceDragon,
😂😂😂
Having emoted that… I totally agree. I don’t blame Pilou, but rather the writing and direction.
Also… Bran, Pod, and Qhono. Fuck, even the Mountain had better and less-cringeworthy moments!
I meant submitted Pilou for his portrayal of Euron. I wasn’t impressed. It’s a shame it was all downhill for the character after that badass introduction on the rope bridge. If he was gonna be there in the endgame events they should have played him more serious than comedic. Maybe I should watch something else with Pilou in it to see how much “acting” he was really doing with Euron? Any suggestions?
Unreal. I figured that Pilou had become a D&D favorite based on him getting some valuable screentime and story line that belonged to other actors but this is insane. The character is mostly reviled and had a hand in some of the worst moments of the season. Pilou seems like a really fun guy and super proud of his time on GoT so I don’t fault him at all but honestly, D&D and the rest of production are out of their goddamned minds.
No nominee submission for Bryan Cogman?? I’m wondering if this is indeed an F-you or if his interview about his first script being shit and D&D correcting many of his mistakes/flaws was more accurate than we would think. I mean, ep 2 was the ONLY universally loved episode this season so this makes no sense at all. Can’t believe they submitted themselves for ep 6. I went from really loving these guys to not wanting to see anything they ever put out into the universe again, ever.
I have to say I am thrilled to see some of the names from the documentary appear as noms – especially the Gowers in prosthetics/makeup. If only there were a category for best and most loyal to House Stark extra for our boy Andy McClay!
Aegon the IceDragon,
Again, I agree. I loved the introduction on the bridge (so did Saner Half, who proclaimed it “Shakespearean”), and was sorely disappointed by the character’s devolvement (extant word?) into, oh, an odd mix of Jack Sparrow, Sid Vicious, and Scabior.
I would also welcome suggestions on Pilou Asbæk’s other work.
I’m happy that “The Iron Throne” was send for “Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series”. This way we can see all the notes. I still believe that the writing for the episode “The Iron Throne” can be brilliant if everything we see is Jon’s POV (and in some cases Tyrion’s POV), but it can also be very bad if objectively, they wanted to make Dany mad just to get a hero vs hero conflict.
Jon was written an idiot in season 8. That’s great because in this way, Dany was killed by an idiot, just like Jon was killed by all those Castle Black idiots in season 5.
P.S.1 It’s not the internet’s wrath. It’s the wrath of many people.
P.S.2 Miguel must win for directing “the long night” and Emilia for lead actress.
P.S.3 Bryan wrote a brilliant episode 2!
Aegon the IceDragon,
Wolfish,
“Borgen.” 100%, he was brilliant. Provided you don’t mind subtitles, or happen to speak Danish. 🙂
What’s a bit sad/funny is that Pilou was so excited to play Euron, as he had expected the character to be more like what he had read in the novels. LOL nope. I can only imagine what went through his mind reading the scripts!
Laura,
overreaction much?
Laura,
belonged to what other actor?
10. Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama (4 candidates)
Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth)
Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister)
Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark)
Maisie Williams (Arya Stark)
👸🏻✅✅✅
“Outstanding Supporting Actor in a Drama (5 candidates)
Alfie Allen (Theon Greyjoy)
Pilou Asbæk (Euron Greyjoy)
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister)
Peter Dinklage (Tyrion Lannister)
Richard Dormer (Lord Beric Dondarrion)”
_______
Hey wait! How can Rory McCann (Sandor Clegane) NOT be on this list ???? Seriously – that cackling clown Euron was submitted and not The Hound????
Ditto!!
Gee whiz, “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” should’ve been put forth for writing at the very least. D: Didn’t find “Winterfell” particularly strong, but then I wound up rating the first two episodes above the rest of the season, so I’d have focused submissions on them. Cogman so deserves it.
Hope they get the overall categories.
I’ll be glad if some/most of the cast members get their nominations…yeah, I guess including Pilou, although there are surely better choices. Lena didn’t get to do much, of course, so it’d be kind of a weird time for her to finally win–but, they could do it for old times’ sake. Not sure why Rory’s not there. (How do you know who submitted themselves & who was submitted by HBO?) Richard would be a pleasant surprise. Would also be pleased with Alfie or Nik (whom I’d wanted last time.) The one I truly want to get it is Carice; high time to give her some recognition (and not just for illuminating “The Long Night,” lol.) That ep would be worthy of some of these noms.
Also hope Ramin gets his! And I suppose the Bud Knight commercial, ’cause why not…
✅ ditto x 1,000,000
Rooting for Emilia to win this year for two reasons:
1. She deserves it. Had challenging material and gave one helluva performance.
2. To put all the nonsense “worst actress on the show” criticisms in their place finally.
Laura,
Pilou submitted himself, not HBO.
Yeah, I’ve seen some comments from him that he had wished that the character of Euron had been written to be more like the books, darker and terrifying (instead of a campy caricature Jack Sparrow type pirate). It did sound to me like the issue was more in the way the character was written than in Pilou’s acting.
E2 seems lik Rogue One of this fandom. It was fan service and it didn’t have any unpopular character decision so it’s beloved in online fandom.
Because the world is not fair, I guess :/
But I’m sure he’d not have submitted himself, so probably D&D and HBO didn’t think he actually has a chance to make it into the final nominees list.
“The Iron Thrones” submitted for best writing made me quite upset. I mean, everybody knows that they should have submitted “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” which is by far the best written episode of this season. I wouldn’t complaine if they submitted ep. 3 or 5, but ep.6… seriously?
The Many-Faced Goddess,
Let’s not act like Euron in the books is not campy caricature. He is not Cersei ir Tywin.
Boojam,
Yes they’ve been put up but Cernobyl is a limited series, so their nominees are in a different category than GOT^^
I hope D&D are nominated and end up winning the writing Emmy for The Iron Throne. Would be a nice final sendoff to the haters.
If it is anything like “Lord of the Rings” at the Oscars, it will sweep the board.
The first two LOTR got very little attention, but it was only on the final that it took the lot. I don’t think judges want to let awards out in dribs and drabs, but just do it all in one hit. At least, that’s my theory.
Emmy for the writing? You can’t be serious, there is no way they get it. The only chance they get the reward is of they give it to D&D fir the backlash they got, or because it was the final season if the biggest TV series of all times to honour the creators.
Beside that, as far as I liked some of the plotlines, I think it would be absolutely undeserved and simply unfair for them to get the prize.
Ha, no, with the eyepatch and all, but he is certainly a lot more disturbing in his calculating insanity than the show version. With show!Euron, his debut was promising, it had that touch of ruthless madness like in the books, but then it went to almost pure comedy. He didn’t even feel remotely threatening after that. Book!Euron at least feels like he can be a legitimate threat (he’s pretty deeply unsettling in the Forsaken excerpt from TWOW).
Wait what? How does The Long Night get so many nomination submissions while The Bells so few?
I mean what you could see in The Long Night is great, but much is lost to darkness and in the end, the episode was underwhelming.
Anyway, glad for Alfie Allen, not that he is likely to get a nom, sadly.
A Knight of the seven Kingdoms should have more nominations. Loved that episode and the song at the end.
The Bells was visually very beautiful.
The music in The Long Night was good. But the visuals were lost in the darkness.
I actually hope Maisie wins an Emmy, because I don’t know if she will get other good roles like this. Emilia should get an Emmy in a show where she can also show her funny side but that also has drama, something like ‘Me before you’.
And I would also want an Emmy for Rory McCann.
Aryafan,
I disagree. I think The Iron Throne was much better written than The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and am very glad it was submitted. The Knight of the Seven Kingdoms wasn’t bad by any means, but it was the episode with the least amount of risk. Personally, I think The Laws of Gods and Men was Cogman’s best episode. That said, I wish other episodes were submitted, including Bryan Cogman’s, so Emmy voters can decide for themselves.
mau,
Yeah, I can’t help but feel if D&D wrote Brienne’s knighting if the internet would scream “fan service.”
The Many-Faced Goddess,
He feels like an antagonist from cartoons. Threatening the same way Thanos is.
Far from truly interesting and complex characters like Tywin or Jaime or Cersei
He raped his brothers so GRRM can show how evil he is. He has magic horns and armors. It feels like desperate adempt to make him relevant.
The Many-Faced Goddess,
I didn’t find Euron menacing in the books, just very cartoonish. That’s not my main problem with him, though. It seems that Martin is trying to make him into a main antagonist at a very late stage. Euron is much better used as a supporting antagonist, like Show Euron.
Young Dragon,
Interesting thing is that D&D did wrote a lot of that episode as Cogman admited. It was the most edited episode he ever wrote.
Surely when it comes to the nomination for Best Writing, it has to be based solely on the script, not the final episode that we see, which has then had input not just from the writers, but the director, the cinematographer, the actors themselves. The best episode of the season might not necessarily be the best written script.
When they’ve released GoT scripts in the past, the writing in them has been fantastic, and I’m not just talking about the words that the actors say, but stage directions, general narration of what’s happening in a scene, and various asides that they put into the scripts to give a better idea of what the characters are thinking and feeling.
That’s what bugs me when people say the writing is bad. No it isn’t. Read the scripts that have been made available; I think they released the script for The Dragon and the Wolf around the time of the last Emmys that GoT was eligible for. The writing is fantastic.
Totes McGoats!
1. Outstanding casting for a drama series. Win. Their casting is always amazing. But depends which they run against. Is that known already?
2. 8×03 for me the win. Why didn’t episode 5 nominated here? And why do I see that mostly comedies won in the past for this?
3. Depends against which they run, but the period costumes were awesome in this episode.
4. I think all 3 did an amazing directing job. Personally I would have chosen the bells for Miguel Sapochnik. I thought that episode was even better directed then the long night. And will probably resonate more with the ones choosing the nominees. (more human less fantasy).
5. They can all win for me, amazing job done by them.
6. Big win amazing title sequence. This one is a 100% win for me
7. Both music composition of both episodes were amazing. Nominee for sure for me.
8. 9. Both Kit and Emilia deserve a nominee in my eyes. Both did amazing this season. (even when some say Jon didn’t do much I think Kit was amazing this season his best season). And Emilia blew me away with her acting skill this season.
10. 11.Supporting Actor and actress. I think all deserve to be nominated but I think Pilou and Dormer will fall off, But it’s more which got the best parts. I think all the female parts were amazing this season, but if I had to choose Gwendoline will be my top pick. She was with Emilia my 2 favorites this season. And Carice should be nominated.
12. All 3 amazing. My choice is the Long Night.
13. Outstanding Drama: For me this is a no-brainer. It should be nominated and it should win. I can see why people felt disappointed but I think season 8 is still better than the other shows, it still outdid the rest. And it’s a season that grows on you the more you see it.
14. 15. Should be nominated, and have a win.
16. How could this one not win? It has special visual Effects that could easily be competing against movies.
17. Win for me
18. I’m with David. Easily win of the year. The final was amazingly written with many things in it that people won’t see the first time they watch it. The first time I watched it I was disappointed I rated it a 6/7 (lowest of all the got episodes), the second time I watch it in 2 sittings, one with Dany one what happened after her death. It grow to a 8/9. And then I watched it again back to back and I grew on me even more and it’s in my 9/10 category.
I wonder what happened it The iron throne win the writing category, I think the Reddit-warriors will attack the Emmy’s then calling them corrupt etc.
TL:DR: GOT will do very well, even though S8 was a hot mess. Peter will likely win though I hope NCW sneaks through. Noms will go to Maisie, NCW – at min. They did Cogman dirty. They did Epi 2, dirty.
1. GOT will do very well at the Emmys. Many of the stronger TV series are not in contention this year. This year, it is very much as case that you do not have to be excellent, you just have to be better (or more accurately, you have to be more popular) than the competition. GOT is still “better” than almost anything this year.
2. GOT is also excellent in the acting and technical areas and that counts for a lot. This is likely to get them the best drama win even though Season 8 was a hot mess. However, how any concerns within the Academy will be reflected at award time should be interesting to watch. I think the Academy loves big-budget TV and so will reward HBO – more money is good for the TV business.
3. They clearly decided to “hurt” A Knight of Seven Kingdoms” even though it was the best critically received and had the best audience feedback. It seems that D&D would prefer not to be embarrassed by Bryan Cogman taking the award for writing. And Bryan is their best writer – just look at his episodes over the years. Worse they nominated that episode in the one category that it is likely to lose – against Ramin.
4. I was surprised at the “tackiness” of the GOT scripts that I have seen in the past. However, I do not have much experience with TV scripts. My favorite script is the one “Man for all Seasons” that is actually a well-written play that I read as a book before it became a movie.
5. The GOT acting remains superb. Peter had the best material to show his great talent. Despite that, I am hoping that NCW get an award this year but I am not counting on it. Lena does not have enough to deserve a nomination but she has done enough over the years to get it. Maisie will be nominated, I think and may win. I am happy Gwen submitted herself – I hope she gets a nomination even without HBO’s support. I am not usually fond of Emilia’s work but this season she more than held her own and may get a nomination and even a win.
6. I really wish that other TV series had run this year and that there were stronger contenders against GOT. It would have been great to see GOT lose heavily on the award circuit. But it will not happen – too much money spent by HBO and too little strong competition.
7. Anyway, Emmys are not the final word on quality. Some of the best TV did not win a single one!
Pigeon,
All the actors deserve it in my opinion.
Naath Sister,
What fans say and think (subjective view) is not the same as the (objective) view the Emmy’s look at it. Yes the fans can say it’s the worst but it’s possible that the ones working as professionals and have a better understanding what’s good writing/directing and acting look at the final season in a more positive way.
I always look at film making as a building a house. We the fans look at it mostly how it’s decorated, what the colors of the walls are, if the clock that is hanging is beautiful. It the bank sits nicely. We judge the shows/movies in that fashion. But if a architect was going to visit a house, he will not look at such things, he will look if the foundations is steady, if the Bearing walls are still good, if every room is put in the right place etc. they look at a house how for instance the ones looking at the Emmy’s look at shows. not if everything looks nice, and is up to the taste of the watcher, it looks at the categories in an objective matter.
Onedon,
For me the best writing of the season is still the final, after that the bells, and then Knight of the seven kingdoms. Following by Long night, and having winterfell after that. The Last of the Starks last, the beginning was amazing but it should have been 2 fully fleshed out episodes. So that’s my only problem with the season.
Boojam,
That’s a different category, miniseries have their own category. (If I remember they compete with tv-movies. like deadwood this year)
D&D’s talent seems to be in adapting material. I am yet to be convinced that their original writing is top-notch. It seems to range from “mostly OK, occasionally strong” to “regularly comically bad”.
Aegon the IceDragon,
We’re not talking about characters, we’re talking about the actors. Even if the character is shitty, the actor can bring the best performance of the year for it. And Pilou was amazing as an actor
Iul,
People complain a lot about the final that only make it clear for me many just like to hate, I still remember the words of one that dislike the final and his problems were:
– It didn’t explain which 6 kingdoms were in the 6 kingdoms.
– Where are all the Baratheons?
It made it clear for me that a lot of people complained because they didn’t pay attention to the show. I see a lot of these kind of people complaining about the final, with questions that should have been answered that were in fact clear if you just watched the show.
Another group I noticed that just didn’t like the whole Dany turning evil twist. They come with videos from Youtube how they would have liked the ending, and yes all those videos are with Dany being the ultimate Hero of the story.
Those 2 groups are making up 80% off the people disliking the final episode.
I have to say that the ones visiting this website and posting their complains are in the other 20% they really have sensible arguments with what should have been better. But even they didn’t give the final lower than a 6. They were more objective then those Reddit-warriors that give the final a 1.
I’m really hoping for a win for Emilia this year. She just brought it all this season and acted her heart out. I would love to see Kit nominated, but I doubt he’ll win.
Peter had some really strong scenes this season, so I think his chances are good. Nik should have won last year, but if there were to be a stunning upset and he wins this year, I would not complain! Good for Alfie for submitting his name on the ballot. If Pilou and Richard are there though, where’s Rory!!? Well, I suppose he’s already f@cked off, sailing on his boat.
“Lots of actors submit their names for the Emmys.”
“Lots of cunts.”
Also, good for Gwen, but this was Maisie’s year! Though if Lena finally takes it, I would be very happy for her (but slightly disappointed that she didn’t win it for 5, 6, or 7 and Maisie with it this year).
In any case, all the hard-working cast & crew (including D&D) are deserving!
Sunfyre,
+1 Emilia is brilliant. I hope she get lot’s of projects after this. She became one of my favorite out there.
mau,
True, and for me I didn’t liked rogue one. Was too much of an action movie, and didn’t have a compelling story for me. (I liked the knights of the seven kingdoms because it still had a amazing story and compelling scenes)
Didn’t know that. But I think you should keep that for yourself. Reddit Warriors will put winterfell as the best episode of the season now. The only one not written by D&D
Mango,
Read Benioff’s books then.
Mango,
7 kind of invalidates 6
The best scenes of season 1 were not in the books and written by D&D themselves. Yes adapting is easier because you have 90% of the scenes ready for you, and you have a sense what the stops are that needed to go to for the final episode.
What the biggest problem is for D&D and GoT and the duration of how long GRRM does about one book is a clue for that. It’s not an easy story to write. Not even GRRM can write that story in 2 months per season. It’s a massive story that takes the average writer a year per season to write. But GoT needed to come out every single year. So the scripts needed to be ready in mere 2 months. So what they write is amazing with the time frame they got. Look at real life how fast 2 weeks go and think about it that you need to write an episode like the long night in those 2 weeks, which is thinking about what will happen, who will die, how everything goes from the beginning to the end, what needs to be written in the scripts and a check if everything is as it should be, and that in just 2 weeks. Only really competent writers could deliver what we got in season 8 with those deadlines.
And that it make sense you can see with other great shows out there. “Sherlock”, “westworld”, “mr robot” etc they all deliver one season per 2 years because it takes that long to write and produce a show like that with that quality. And D&D deliver more in shorter time. Guess what that doesn’t make them shitty writers, that makes them writers of the highest order.
And as for Benioff. Do you know the game “last of us”? Which is by 90%+ of the critics decided as the best game of all time. That story is just brilliant. (played at at least 6 times already). Did you know that the writers of that storyline took inspiration of one of Benioff’s books? City of Thieves by him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Thieves_(novel)
I do not think so! Too much other good stuff available. I would need to really respect his television work to buy anything else he does. I cannot imagine that I will view/read/listen to anything else that he is involved in.
I am fortunate to live in a region with many artistic choices on tap. I reagularly go the theatre, cinema, and sometimes to the opera. I have a large library of loved books (yep, hard copy!). D&D just are not my usual cup of tea.
Mango,
Then I see no point in your comment.
Pilou more than likely submitted himself. (Or his representation submitted him, rather.) The network usually puts their efforts behind just a couple candidates (probably Dinklage and Nikolaj for supporting male, maybe Alfie this time?)- Richard Dormer and Pilou are almost certainly self-submitted. Networks and shows understand that if they have too many candidates, that splits the votes so they don’t usually put up a lot if they can help it- but they can’t stop people from submitting themselves.
This is like when Carice was submitted in the supporting actress category along with Maisie and Sophie for a season she was minimally in. She was definitely self-submitted that year, no way would HBO have put her up for it.
kevin1989,
Yes, I agree it is hard work.
It seems that Gold Derby thinks Lena, Maisie and Sophie will be nominted.
Emilia as well.
Nikolaj and Peter also.
And it seems that there is a chance that even Kit will be nominated.
So all 7 main actors could be nominated for the last season.
No, it’s beloved because it focuses on character interactions and story, which matter most to many of us, rather than spectacle and carnage, which many of us regard as nice frills, but not meaty material that we’d want to watch over and over.
mau,
“She never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave…”. That’s why people loved episode 2 so much. Very few of us want to leave the show behind. We wanted to stay with these characters a little longer even to dance with our ghosts now that so many died later In the season. Episode 2 was The episode that took the time and let us remember what we loved so much about the characters. And when Jenny’s song came on I lost it. I rewatched episode 2 more than any other episode. I just flashed a memory of Sansa sipping her soup with Theon. I’m losing it again.
Firannion,
Well this is epic fantasy. It needs both of those things.
Tron79,
I feel that at end of the day, that song was about Daenerys.
Yes. Chernobyl is submitted (in categories for “limited series” as opposed to “drama series.”)
I don’t really see that. I see it that us fans were all Jenny.
Tron79,
Yes, we were all Jenny.
For me, Episode 2 reflected the very “soul” of the series. It should really have been submitted for an Emmy as the capstone episode for the years of viewership by many fans that loved the characters.
Seriously? I feel the opposite. Dany is the farthest character from my mind when I watch that scene. She is the consummate outsider, and her arc has always felt detached from the rest of the story for me, despite several major Westerosi characters taking up her cause late in the game.
The people in that room had a bond and a shared destiny focused on the threat to the North – a scenario to which Dany was relevant only as the superpower with the WMDs. She can never understand what various configurations of these people have been through together, because Dany has always been all about Dany’s own perceived individual destiny. The energy in that room was not about ruling anything; it was about the preciousness and precariousness of life. All those people, no matter how awfully fate had treated them, simply wanted to live one more day. The scene had tremendous power for us as viewers because we have lived those difficult arcs alongside them.
Hope Emilia is nominated.
It will be tough for her to win. I assume “The Iron Throne” will be her episode submission, and she only has 2 scenes.
But she is mesmerizing in those scenes. Her speech was chilling.
The rest… I hope Lena wins for her epic window staring. They might just give it to her because shes been robbed of it 3-4 times.
Dinklage will auto-win for sure.
Lol, the internet will EXPLODE if D&D win. Hope they don’t.
Jared,
Wow. now thats a blast from the past. Wonder whatever happened to those actors. Loved that show
Firannion,
I mean lyrics of the song. I see them as foreshadowing of Daenerys’ endgame.
High in the halls of the kings who are gone
Danny would dance with her ghosts
The ones she had lost and the ones she had found
And the ones who had loved her the most
The ones who’d been gone for so very long
She couldn’t remember their names
They spun her around on the damp old stones
Spun away all her sorrow and pain
And she never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave
Meh Pilou Asbaek being submitted as Euron? What could’ve been with that character… They could’ve built up Euron in the early seasons, showing us glimpses of him. Maybe his ship attacks Dany on the way to Astapor or crosses paths with her somewhere in Essos. Maybe we see a glimpse of him or his ship in Old Valyria as Jorah and Tyrion pass through. Or he shows up at the House of Black and White in S5
. Then when he gets to Westeros, he brings the:
and is more of a mystical presence. Maybe he kills the Night King and we transition to him being one of the big baddies at the end of the show. Alas Dave and Dan didn’t have time for that, they were on to bigger and better things. ::sigh:: We’ll see how they do.
Wolfish,
Yeah, him showing up on the shore definitely reminded me of Jack, who at least had a pirate personality and humor. This character was fun the first time or two on screen then he just became unbearable. And his proclaiming that he killed the kingslayer, pls. Im sure he’s a good actor, but his time in the finale was a waste.
I strongly agree. I was hoping Bryan, David Nutter and Jenny’s song would have been nominated. Do they have a best song for drama series or is that only the oscars for movies?
mau,
now that doesn’t surprise me!
I have to admit that Emilia Clarke upped her game considerably in Season 8, but that only brought her to the level of ‘competent’ actress, not ‘outstanding.’ I’m not much of a TV-watcher, but I can’t help noticing that when Emmy-winners take a secondary or even a minor role in a movie, they elevate the entire project. Think of Allison Janney in I, Tonya or The Way, Way Back, or Elisabeth Moss in The Seagull or Us. When Clarke appears in a movie franchise like Star Wars or Terminator, the impression she makes is minimal – tepid at best.
Sorry, Dany stans, but she was in way over her head from the get-go. I guess when you’re hiring a slew of young, untested actors, it’s inevitable that you’ll guess wrong on the potential of at least a few of them. GoT got luckier than most, and had a great talent-spotter in Nina Gold. It’s just too bad that the one least up to the task was cast in one of the two lead roles for the entire series.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Dragonbinder is a stupid plot device in the books so regardless of what they did do on the show I would have hated the inclusion of that horn. I was never a Euron fan to begin with so I didn’t really care what they did with him, other than becoming a little peeved at him being successful with everything he did until the very end. If they would have added anything more to the Greyjoys I would have chosen Victarion.
As for Pilou, I have no problems with him being submitted. His role won’t earn him a nomination but there’s no harm in trying.
Firannion,
I must agree in a way, even if I thought Emilia was great in GoT. But I think GoT just had great directors that were able to really push these actors to do great things, but with other directors limitations of their talent is obvious. As you said, she is ‘competent’ actress, but not ‘outstanding.’
For example Richard Madden had a lot of work outside of GoT and I think he proved that he can create great roles even without GoT “infrastructure”.
But Kit, Sophie and Emilia not so much. Yet. Their best work is still on GoT.
I think Maisie and Isaak could be great actors, though. We’ll see.
Mango,
Jenny’s song is wonderful and receives heaps of praise, deservedly so. And who wrote the lyrics? Dan Weiss. But no one credits him for that. Most seem only interested in throwing criticism on both of them for the faults, but giving praise where praise is due..?
Go figure..
If so, Dan did well with that song! He also seems to be a great adapter of books. The song was impactful given its placement in such a well-crafted episode and that it was done by Pod sitting among some of our most beloved characters facing what they thought was certain death.
Perhaps, he may be a better songwriter than book/scriptwriter. Maybe a change of profession?
I had a chuckle here. Lots to agree with.
Clob,
It’s not a plot device, it’s super cool. It’s well established as to how he got the item and the lore behind where it came from. Would’ve been awesome if he walked into the Kingsmoot in Valyrian steel armor and had some poor bastard blow the horn. Rather than the buffoon version of the character we got coming out and bragging about his big cock.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
You can like the horn if you want, but no amount of discussion is going to change my mind from thinking that it’s a ridiculous device (even for fantasy) that may or may not come into play solely as the book method of reducing Daenerys’ strength and making things more ‘fair.’ I just don’t like it.
Wow this article published today and already has almost a hundred comments so Watchers is alive and well despite GOT ending.
As for the nominations I’m surprised that A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was not nominated for writing and Last of Starks was nominated for directing. I hope Alfie wins the supporting actor award he was brilliant as Theon.
As much as disappointed I am about season 8 and, above all, the damage it does on the story told in previous seven seasons, I wish good fortune to Game of Thrones in the Emmys. I hope they win as much as they can. Winning Emmys doesn’t mean quality however. Season 3, although not as good today as before season 8 has aired, is incomparably better than season 7 and won less Emmys, for example.
I just rewatched ep 2 – that was such a perfect episode from start to finish. For that to not be nominated but 6 was, says something about the people who make these kinds of decisions, and its not good.
Lots to agree with here.
Mango,
🙂 Well, the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire..
Hahhahhaaa! I see what you did there! good one!
I call it a Song of Sandor and Arya.
#ASNAWPTWP 👸🏻🔪🧟♂️
#ForF*cksSake 🐶
I agree. Of all the villians in GOT he’s by far the most one dimensional and unlike the sadists of Ramsay/Joffrey you are never that invested to really urge for his death or care about the character in the way you do Dany/Cersei.
Wolfish,
I liked Pilou in a somewhat abbreviated role in the sci-fi flick “Lucy” (2014) starring Scarlett Johansson.
Here’s the online description, spoiler-coded for those who don’t want to know what it’s about:
Pilou plays the sort-of boyfriend.
As disappointed as I am with season 8 and the damage it does on the story told by the seven previous seasons, I hope Game of Thrones win as much Emmys as possible. I don’t care particularly for these trophies. They don’t say much about the quality of a TV series. But I believe it feels good for a cast and a crew that worked so hard to be recognized. Good luck!
I am all for Kit winning… if you look from season 1 to Season 8 … cannot compare the how hard Kit has worked to bring Jon Snow truly on our TV sets it is a testament of his dedication and passion for the character and I for one have been more than pleased with his work since season 5 (that’s where things started to come around for me about his work)
This season was probably Emilia’s best as well … she too is another that I want to win… hell I want them all to win honestly, Even Rory (mind boggling why he isn’t there)
I’d love to see Emilia win, but I’m having a hard time seeing them give it to someone using a made up language in her best, most powerful scenes. I’d love to be wrong.
If anyone deserves it, it’s Maisie. She’s always been an amazing actress and she did fabulous work this season. 03 and 06 were spectacular, and if she doesn’t win, it will be a crime.
Lena did not do enough this season. She deserved it in other seasons, not this one. Alfie was great, but I don’t know that they showed him with enough range of emotion like they do with Peter.
The cinematography blew me away this season. I wish so much that 03 had not been shot so darkly, but even with the darkness, it still had some breathtaking moments. That scene where Jon and Dany slide back down into the clouds together with their dragons is imprinted on my brain forever. The Dothraki lights flickering out one by one. Melisandre’s eyes reflecting the flames and the white walkers. I could go on. 06 was just all out amazing on that front as well.
I agree that 02 should have got a writing nod. I’ll make sure to look at the scripts when they become available to read so I can see if there are any differences in what made it to the screen.
I haven’t been up to watching the finale again yet, but I will. I hope I can love it more with each new viewing, because I hate ending my love for the show on such a sour note. 🙁
It will be a first degree felony if Maisie Williams does not win.
In addition to her work this season in Episodes 03 and 06, here’s my personal S8 favorite Arya scene, in Episode 5:
Sandor & Arya last scene (S8e5)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DgACkATLvA
I admit I’m biased in favor of Maisie Williams. Still, did any other supporting actress have a single scene that was as good as this?
10. Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama (4 candidates)
Gwendoline Christie (Brienne of Tarth)
Lena Headey (Cersei Lannister)
Sophie Turner (Sansa Stark)
Maisie Williams (Arya Stark)
I like the Stark Girls to tie, Sophie on the emotional stuff, and Maisie on the physical.
If I had to I give it to Maisie for the physical work she put in to the series.
kevin1989,
Oh yes! Many complaints are of comedy genre. I ignore them. Dany is mad through the eyes of all of those idiots around her. Especially Jon. When he confronted her and she said: “that was necessary”, instead of expanding the subject, he accepts the answer and changes the discussion to: “and Tyrion?” Wait wait wait! What do you mean “that was necessary”? By accepting this answer, Jon has no reason to kill Dany. If you’re ok with the necessity of the KL barbeque, why do you kill her ? But like I said, Jon is an idiot in season 8.
P.S. I would have enjoyed the following dialog better:
Bran: “Theon ! What is dead may never die”
Jaime: “She is a hateful person and so am I. I was forgotten, she deserves forgiveness too.”
I think Lena will win it just on grounds of her previous performances.
As much as I love Maisie, she hasn’t got the networking, experience or pull in the industry to win it quite yet. Lena’s been in the industry for some time now and has often been seen as robbed at the emmys in previous years.
Being nominated alone is a great thing though! I’m hopeful for Sophie to get hers this year too.
kevin1989,
As someone who has judged Emmys in the past you are absolutely correct. I’ve done it for local chapters and yes, you do look at very specific aspects and they’re also strict about conflict of interests among other things. When I look at an entry we are only supposed to rate it based solely on the parts specific to the entry category.
Ten Bears,
I approve!
Ten Bears,
Every time you post this video, I watch it, and every time it brings a tear to my eye.
Grail King,
Sophie did great with her emotional material this season, but Maisie had just as much (if not more) this season and knocked it all out of the park. Her reunion with Jon, intimacy with Gendry, all her scenes with Sandor, her ending scene in 8×05, and her goodbye with Jon..
mau,
“Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series
– The Iron Throne (806)
David Benioff, D.B. Weiss”
____
Without opining on the quality of the writing of Episode 6, is the word “hubris” or “chutzpah” appropriate to describe Benioff and Weiss nominating themselves for “Outstanding Writing” for that episode?
Wolfish,
Asbaek was great in BORGEN, the Danish political drama. Also in Borgen was Birgitte Hort Sorensen who played “Karsi” in Hardhome.
Young Dragon,
Does risk defines what the best episode is? Isn’t that character development, consistency, on point dialogs, beautifu scenery, unimaginable music, great acting and perfect character interactions?
I have nothing against you prefering the last episode over the second, but well… risk?
Honestly, Starks ending and first few minutes is what made this episode pleasent. The rest could have never happen it wouldn’t change neither my perception nor the story at all.
mau,
I have to disagree, Sophie is great in x men (even when I didn’t like x men 3. Didn’t see the latest yet). Kit I find also acting great in other movies. And Emilia got many praises when she was in theater. Breakfast at Tiffany’s if I’m not mistaken.
Mango,
He’s a great writer. As I stated above with their deadlines. If George for instance would have gotten those deadlines D&D got how great would the books have been. Let say the publisher had told him to finish winds in 2014 and dream in 2017. Because that would have happened if the publisher pushed George like hbo did D&D. Do you think the books were that great then? Or would it also have suffered from deadlines? Do you think the books would have been masterpieces then.
What they showed us was that D&D are skilled writers that can write great quality under lot of pressure. 99% of other show writers would have shown us a less great last season then they gave us.
Look at other great shows. True detective season 3 took 3 years to write 8 episodes. Werstworld takes 2 years per season for a less heavy production then got. Sherlock takes 3 years for 3 episodes. Etc.
Weiss and benioff het a lot of respect from me what they did with the show.
Exactly. Character interactions and story rather then spectacle and carnage. Here are three examples from S4e7, which make it my all-time favorite episode:
S4e7 Bronn visits Tyrion in his cell, declines to be his champion in trial by combat. On his way out, asks…
Bronn: “What will you do?”
Tyrion: “I suppose I’ll have to kill the Mountain myself. Won’t that make a great song.”
Bronn: “I hope to hear them sing it one day.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31SZUZLsLaM
——–
S4s7 Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell, tells story of meeting Tyrion when he was a baby. Ends with…
Oberyn: “I will be your champion.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n79tN6Fpw
___________
S4e7 Sandor tells Arya about Gregor burning him
Clob,
What if it’s just the horn of winter. And instead of controlling dragons it will take down the wall. I think George make himself more easier with the story that way to take down the wall.
trarecar,
For me Maissie is second. Gewendoline deserves the win in my mind this season. Her scenes in episode 2 and 4 and 6 were one of the best of the season.
(sorry ten bears, hope you can forgive me)
Iul,
I think jon was scared. Not only from dany but also scared he would be put on the throne. At least that’s my take on it. He knew dany was wrong but he also knew what will happen to him if dany would be taken down. And of course he is in love with the woman. He knew once he saw dany for who she was he needed to stop her. It’s only natural to try to avoid that.
Enharmony1625,
Sophie in episode 4 was amazing. Did you watch the last watch. She become Sansa at that moment. She couldn’t stop crying because Sansa couldn’t because her best friend was dead.
Ten Bears,
Do we know that for certain. Could be hbo themselves. I mean they could have choose from episode 3 till 4 if they wanted to be nominated for one episode. It could be a move on hbo part to show that even when fans are rating it bad the professionals praise it. Which could eventually lead to the last season being remembered in a better day light.
Music Composition and Music Supervision are two different categories. Djawadi and the other guy are not competing against each other.
Adam,
Risk was just one example of why I preferred the finale. There’s also the emotional aspect to consider. Cogman has always had problems eliciting an emotional response from me. The only scenes in his episode that got me emotional were Brienne’s knighting and Podrick’s song, and apparently Weiss is responsible for the latter. Compare that to the finale, we have Tyrion discovering Jaime and Cersei, Dany’s speech, Tyrion and Jon’s conversation, Dany’s death, Drogon’s reaction, the dragon pit meeting, the Starks farewell, and the final montage. I preferred all of these scenes to all of Cogman’s scenes.
Ten Bears,
Id also add cojones, but yeah, thats the basic idea. Boggles my mind that they think they deserve it, or that other people think that. (has anyone even seen them lately? Looks like they are in hiding…..)
Kevin1989,
She was! And yes, I did watch the Last Watch and was moved by how Sophie couldn’t stop crying after doing that scene with dead Theon. For me though, nothing moved me as much as Arya saying goodbye to Jon in 8×06, or as you rightly pointed out, Gwen’s knighting in 8×02. Those just bring the tears!
Young Dragon,
Tyrion and Jon’s scene from E6 is one of my favorite scenes in the entire show.
Young Dragon,
The problem is that you compare the final episode of the entire series with a second episode, that serves completely different purpose. It prepares the watcher for inevitable death (which didn’t occur after all).
And, unfortunately, wihout being dishonest, in terms of emotionality the second episode was much heavier for me. Death of Daenerys was not as tear-stained as imagined it’d be. Tyrion’s reaction was purely amazing, that’s true. Dragon Pit meeting was a joke in terms of logic and inconsistencies. It wasn’t emotional at all. The ending was great though.
The second episode is the one when Jaimie is finally fully forgiven for his past. The moment when Sansa meets Theon. God. That was powerful – the music, Sansa’s reaction, Daenerys astonishment. And the song at the end – don’t know if that was Weiss’ idea, but that was great. The episode had flaws too, obviously.
But the level of nonsense in the last episode was a mood-killer for me; and in the end, it also had to shoulder the burden of the whole season’s stupidity. It doesn’t surprise me, that it is the final episode that bring the closure for all the characters. You can also feel the rush they have introduced this season -and the last episode reinforced this feeling.
I don’t feel it’d be a fruitful discussion, since I disliked this season strongly, but it’s nice to hear your opinion 🙂 thanks for that!
Have fun and hopefully, enjoy the sequel 🙂
mau,
Same with me. Peter and Kit killed it in that scene.
BORGEN was (is) great and so were (are) Pilou Asbaek and Birgitte Hort Sorensen as spin-doctors and “now-and-then-couple”!
I enjoyed it very much and will watch it again (third time).
Adam,
Ok, I’ll give you Theon and Sansa. I forgot about that. Episode 2 tried to tell a story about the characters on the eve of their inevitable demise, and in some places, he succeeded, but he could have done more. I feel like the episode was too comedic, which conflicts with the tone he was trying to set. Also, Jaime receiving Bran’s forgiveness fell flat, probably because Bran has become so emotionless.
Danerys, for me, was very emotional. I love how Jon had to once again choose between love and duty. Kit and Emilia were both incredible in their final scene together. I also enjoyed the dragon pit scene. The only scene from the finale I disliked was Bronn being named Lord Paramont of the Reach.
I may be in the minority, but I didn’t find the season to be rushed at all. I think it’s because both the White Walker storyline and Danerys/Cersei conflict had already been built up, so the transition between the two was flawless.
I appreciate that. Thank you!
Enharmony1625,
This Episode 2 moment gets me choked up:
(S8e2, Arya & Sandor on WF battlements)
After Arya asks: “….I mean what are you doing up here? You joined the Brotherhood. You went beyond the Wall with Jon. You’re here now. Why? When was the last time you fought for anyone but yourself?”
(at 1:15) Sandor turns to face Arya and answers:
“I fought for you, didn’t I?”
Enharmony1625,
P.S. I’ve decided to adopt Sandor’s go-to exclamation:
“Aw for f*ck’s sake!”
He used it in the Episode 2 scene when Beric showed up, and again in Episode 4 when he’s riding away from WF and notices Arya riding next to him heading the same way.
Kevin1989,
“For me Maissie is second. Gewendoline deserves the win in my mind this season. Her scenes in episode 2 and 4 and 6 were one of the best of the season.
(sorry ten bears, hope you can forgive me)”
__________
There’s nothing to forgive, My Lord.
I assume you’ve seen Karsi (Birgitte Hjort Sorensen) in “Pitch Perfect 2” as the Kommisar. She couldn’t be more different than Wildling Warrior Karsi in “Hardhome.”
Kommisar & Beca scenes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=195eZr56-F0
Das Sound Machine performance
Yep, I agree. Surprised to see Pilou Asbaek in that list. Nothing personally against the actor – just the way he played Euron. He was fucking awful 🙁
Forget the Emmys. When are the nominations for the real Awards going to be made?
I’m talking about the annual Watchers on the Wall Awards.
Also, are we going to be able to vote on “Best of…” for all eight seasons as well?
Without opining on the quality of the writing of Episode 6, is the word “hubris” or “chutzpah” appropriate to describe Benioff and Weiss nominating themselves for “Outstanding Writing” for that episode?
Strictly speaking, we can’t consider the latter without considering the former, but I’ll applaud if they get the award. In my humble opinion, they absolutely nailed the ending, which I had thought difficult to impossible — until they actually went and did it. Bra(a)vos, sirs!
I feel like Maisie should have been submitted in the Outstanding Actress category, not Supporting. Her presence and impact on this season (and I’m guessing lines of dialogue) rivaled any other character.
Kit deserves an Emmy, it’s just too bad he didn’t get it before this season. He did great work, but there just wasn’t a lot of it this year to win the Emmy. I hope voters overlook that out of nostalgia.
Rory being left out is a travesty.
The Iron Throne (806) for Outstanding Writing For A Drama Series is a bad joke at best. It won’t win. 802 A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was by far the best writing of the season and had an excellent chance at winning. It should have been submitted. I’m betting D&D didn’t want any other episodes competing with their “masterpiece”.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
Agree with all of this. Rory definitely should have been nominated, but as he wasn’t, he also doesn’t seem the type to submit himself, so I’m not surprised there.
I suspect GOT will do a pretty good sweep as most awards shows like to heap it on the outgoing series as a last hurrah. Kit and Lena did not have a ton to work with this season, but could win for previous ones. I do hope Maisie wins.
To me, Episode 6 was in good form for worst episode this year, so I can’t figure that one out (my favourite moment was Drogon appearing to understand what half the characters didn’t and melting down that wretched throne), but then I also don’t think Episode 2 could be beat. I have a great deal of respect for Bryan Cogman, and the atmosphere of that whole episode…augh my heart. So well done.
In the end, awards shows can be a bit of fun, but often are not the most infallible telling of who or what deserves the trophies.
Off topic, but a channel I subscribe to just uploaded a beautiful short film from Daisy Chain Productions (Maisie’s company) starring Maisie and the wonderful Ronald Pickup, directed by Mark Lobatto. A little close to home for me at the moment, but well done. ❤
Enharmony1625,
There are so many scenes that moved me to tears this season. The ones you pointed out. Arya Sandor farewell. Brienne Jaime farewell. Theon’s dead was one that got the most tears of me this season I think. “You’re a good man”.
Cersei had a moment to with me, her begging to live for the sake of her child. It shows the old Cersei who cared for her children again. And I tried to understand how a mother would feel knowing their child would die. And it got to me. How horrible Cersei was, that’s something unthinkable.
Carice scenes were also amazing. Jon at the wall had me in tears, happy tears, he was back with his buddy Ghost and thormund.
The final was for me a rollercoaster of emotions. Yes I still think they could have added some scenes more in the final, but for me it wasn’t needed. Still wouldn’t mind if we got an extended season 8 on blu-ray, with some deleted scenes.
Adam,
how can I forget Theon/Sansa’s reunited. That scene was powerful.
But what was wrong with episode 2 then?
As for the final/last season: I’m not going into discussion again about rushed missing things etc. The only thing that I can say is that how more you watch the season, the better it gets and feels. It’s something that grows on you. The rush feeling is much much less if you binge-watch it. It flows better. And you sense more why they did some time skips.
Ten Bears,
But still both deserve to win. I think all deserve to win. We may prefer one but I think all the cast/crew/writers/directors etc did the ultimate best. and the best of the year.
Ten Bears,
Be curious how a new season will affect the standing of many people’s top lists. As for me, Ep 2 is the only one that comes close to sneaking in to my top 10 . Tho it does give me an excuse to do a complete rewatch this summer – oh gosh darn (wonder how many easter eggs I’ll find along the way that will lead me to the end)
Pigeon,
Thanks for that – and the link! Maisie is so good. I don’t usually watch or even look for short films because I just never think of it, but I’m going to check out more on that channel now. 🙂
Pigeon,
That was lovely. Simply lovely. Thank you for sharing.
Well, I binge-watched only 4 first seasons. Then I catched up and been waiting entire year for new seasons.
Unfortunately, for me there is no good excuse of why they skipped anything. Not the exhaustion of the crew, not even the fact that script-writers got bored with the material. It just doesn’t make sense – the plot holes and travelling with a speed of light are too painful to bear – not just for a fan, but for a regular viewer. The drop on the quality was drastic. You can’t deny it. Well, you can – if you prefer CGI and explosions over the logic and solid storyline. But if that’s the matter, then you wouldn’t like Game of Thrones from the very first season in the first place.
It’s just sad to see the closure for all these characters so butchered. So to look for excuse of “upon what circumstances it actually makes sense” miss the point.
You watch it – you enjoy it – you are happy with the series being consistence throught it’s length.
But it doesn’t work like that, when the quality simply drops. And it has nothing to do with theories not coming true, like many like to say. Let’s take Jaimie for an exmaple. It’s great that in the end, after being redeemed, he gets back to Cersei. But the way it was presented… Good Lord.
Adam,
I have to disagree, the quality didn’t drop that much I even put season 8 in the top 4. Season 4 > season 1/ and 6 > season 8
Season 2 and 5 are 10x more rushed then season 8 was. Look at the screen time that Stannis got in season 2 and what he did. His whole plot till KL was less then 30 minutes of screen time. It only covered the plotlines of that whole story. Dany’s story was stretched to the point that I only liked her final episode of season 2. There was much more inconsistencies in that season then in 8.
Even the jumping from place to place happens a lot in season 2. Did we forget the littlefinger jetpack backlash back then? Or that fans restructured the whole season because it was too much 5 minutes per episode per character.
As for time jumps, if you didn’t like it, how did you get past episode 1? that whole episodes was 3+ months in one episode. It did have multiple time jumps. So why do people complain that in season 8 but loved it in season 1? Or did we forget that how Ned and Cat traveled across the whole Westeros in that season? It jumped more in time then season 8.
Or forget that it jumped to the future and back to the past in season 1 alot. For instance Sansa’s letter to her family. Or Robert putting a hit on dany that happens more then a month later, we see the hit on Dany and it jumps back in time back to Westeros.
The problems people have with season 8 already was done to the fullest of the “praised seasons”. If season 8 lacked quality of the reasons you just gave, season 1 till 4 and especially the first 2 seasons fall short even more.
And another complain of season 8 was the whole killing Rheagal problem. Did we forget the Sandsnakes? Was their adventure more believable? Or Sam surviving the WW attack in 2×10/3×01? Or Tyrion just walking into the inn where Cat happens to be? Or littlefinger just be to see Arya in season 2. Tywin moving just in the moment Gendry was about to get killed by the tickler etc. Sometimes the show just need to move the plot forward and it’s happening since season 1.
So to summaries it:
– No excuse why they skipped anything: I excuse them, simple because I excuse them in season 1 till 4 when they skipped important stuff, especially season 2.
– Exhaustion of the crew: Yeah just work them to a burn-out, just ignore the law where even HBO needs to hold to protect their workers. Yes exhaustion of the crew is a valid excuse because the law force HBO to follow that excuse.
– Who said the scriptwriters got bored with the material, they said back in season 1 that they looking at 70 episodes. When season 3 and 4 ended they said the same. 7 season with 10 episodes of around 50 minutes. They even added 3 episodes and they added a lot of screen time. And the argument HBO and George wants this is just utterly bullcrap, yes HBO wants more money, and George hoped that the show got 12 seasons because then the books would be done before the show. It had nothing to do what was best for the show. Yes it could have have 1 or 2 episodes more, but more of that would be stretching the show to much and wouldn’t have worked. Back in season 2 till 4 we had 10+ storylines, now just 2. Meaning that the story will be 5 times faster.
– Plotholes were there since season 1.
– Traveling was much worse in season 1 and 2 (and 5). Or not worse, but more present. Look at episode 1×01 till 1×06 there was more traveling there then there was in season 8.
– The drop of quality wasn’t drastic. I can say that 8×02 8×03 8×05 and 8×06 are in my top 20 episodes. And probably 2 or 3 in my top 10.
– The only thing missing was what happened with Dany between episode 4 and 5. Which could be added if they had done 7 episode season. The missing parts people had of the final, which I had first time watching wasn’t missing when I watched it the second and third time. It was perfect how it was.
– I’m never a big fan of explosions and CGI, you could sense that when I attacked episode 8×03 when it first aired (I cooled down later and second time I loved the episode and saw why it was just brilliant and that my emotion was just that I didn’t get what I wanted, which I let go after that). I will never watch for instance Marvel movies because I dislike movies and TV shows only showing the viewers CGI and explosions. I want story. (Which season 8 had enough of, unfortunate some still look at season 8 with the black-glasses and just ignore the good parts)
– No character was butchered (except maybe Euron). Every ending was how I would loved to see them ending when I though of it before season 8. Arya sailing west (season 6 stated), Sansa sort of queen (since season 1), Jon not king because that would have destroyed him (and after 8×04 I wanted him to be with Ghost and Thormund), Bran I wanted to have a meaningful ending where his abilities could come to pass (happened), Brienne I wanted to be Kingsguard (season 2 she was that of Renly). Cersei I wanted to die with her emotions coming back, I said it in 7×01, she compress (right word?) her emotions, and that will come out at the end. Dany ended how I would have liked, I was one of the few that called her a Tyrant even back in season 4 (in 3 I still liked her action only in 4 I saw the problem with her).
– Jaime: For me it didn’t diminish his redemption, it even upped it. He changed from selfish to man of honor. He thinks second of the other now. It also meant come to close with his bad past and put himself in perspective. Brienne deserve more in his mind. the big difference between season 1 and season 8 is, back then Jaime would have done everything for Cersei, do horrible things. In season 8 that stopped, yes he goes back to Cersei but still he is the man he became, not the man he was. And also I don’t think that I could have forgive Jaime if he would just let his unborn child die because Cersei was evil. He has a job as a father to his unborn child, that is to protect it, meaning no love-time with Brienne, but getting to work to get your unborn child to safety and not getting killed by a dragonqueen. But I think to look at what you said, it could have been better if he left with Jon, or together with Arya and Sandor. The timing should have been the moment Dany left winterfell to protect Cersei from Dany.
yes season 8 is worse then season 1,4 and 6. And I had hoped we got at least 2 WOW kind of episodes. Unfortunate non of the episodes is on that scale. But still it’s not that bad as some say. It should have been the best season of them all, as a last season. But for me it doesn’t matter that it’s not the best of them all. It’s still amazing compare to everything that’s out there. And compare to all the other shows out there, GoT still ranks in the top 10% even the last season. And it’s still worth a 8,0+ at least. Which is maybe low for a GoT episode but for me non of the season 8 episode rank below that.
ps. I hope they filmed some scenes but wasn’t put on screen because hbo wanted a 80 minutes limit. the runtimes are to perfect around 80 minutes, in season 7 it was all over the place. So my hope is still that we got a LOTR blu-ray version. An extended cut, with filmed scenes not put on our screens the first time. I think many would like that.
Jaime is a great example. I didn’t mind him going back to Cersei, but I never saw a real motivation for it, not one strong enough to undo everything the series had spent seven seasons building up. Let’s say Jaime was there when Gilly announced her pregnancy and he was noticeably shaken. Wanting to save his unborn child could have been an understandable and relatable spark.
The other problem is that Jaime always struggled between right and wrong, honor and betrayal, trying to live up to his father’s expectations vs being his own man etc. He was mocked and derided endlessly for killing the mad king, yet it was the most unselfish thing he could have done for the greater good. He had years of self-preservation that hardened him, yet his yearning to be honorable was palpable even from his interactions with Cat, before Brienne.
To have him reduced to “I never cared about the innocents” so abruptly was out of character. It discarded years of internal conflict simply for the easiest and fastest way to move the pieces on the chessboard – to get him to Kings Landing and back in Cersei’s arms so he could die there.
I would have loved to have seen his inner turmoil, the struggle between honor and love, and a tipping point that sent him regressing back to Cersei, abandoning the struggle and deciding to fully embrace the darkness. That would have been classic GOT.
Pigeon,
Thank you for posting this, I doubt I would have run across it otherwise. This was a moving, well written, beautifully acted short film. I’m so happy I saw it. Thanks again Pigeon!
I have to say I disagree. There was plenty of motivation.
First of all, we have to remember that while it seems like a long time ago that Jaime left her (due to the long off-season), it wasn’t until the end of season 7 that he did so. He then leaves to return to her in episode 4 of season 8. That’s just four episodes that he spent away from her until he decides to return. In terms of timespan, that probably amounts to a few months, compared to what.. 30 years of being together?
Working backwards from season 7, we have him staying with her after she blew up the Sept of Baelor that resulted in their son taking his own life. Then she crowned herself Queen after this horrible act and made an alliance with Euron.
In season 6, we have him following her orders to take back Riverrun, and he would have done anything to get back to Cersei even with the presence of Brienne there.
In season 5, he went to Dorne all for Cersei to get their daughter back. Even in season 4 when she basically rejects him at the beginning of the season he stays, and forces himself on her over their son’s dead body. Season 2 & 3 is all about Jaime getting back to her by any means. Truth is, there are so many scenes throughout the series that establishes their connection to one another and his attachment to Cersei.
The catalyst in season 8 that sends him back to her is the very real realization that her death is imminent. My interpretation is also that him sleeping with Brienne brings back a lot of the feelings he has for Cersei being the only other person he’s slept with; almost a feeling like he’s betrayed her, and one of self-loathing. There is a good article linked by NCW himself that explains the undercurrents of the scene where he leaves Brienne in 8×04. Brienne is heartbroken not just because he’s leaving, but because she failed to change him. Yes, it’s tragic. Terribly so. However, given the history of Jaime & Cersei I simply don’t see how people can argue that it wasn’t properly set up or properly explained. It’s all there. Whether you like that or not is another matter entirely.
On a totally different topic, did we ever get the Beautiful Death for 8×06? I don’t recall seeing it. Usually the artist releases the art in the week following the episode, but I haven’t seen the one for the last episode.
kevin1989,
That was very well put! I agree with everything you said except I thought season 8 was better than season 1, but only slightly. Seasons 4 and 6 are also my favorites, though.
Enharmony1625,
One more thing I forgot to address. At face-value, Jaime claiming that he never cared for the innocents seems at odds with his character, but there’s more to it than that. He’s not in a good place at this point. As he said when he left Brienne, he sees himself as hateful. He’s filled with self-loathing for what he’s done and what he’s doing at this moment. It’s almost like he’s doubling down on that by falsely claiming that he doesn’t care about innocents. Sometimes we say things we don’t entirely mean when we feel very down on ourselves. That’s what I took away from that line.
I found this on Apple News about RD and his compositions for Season 8.
https://apple.news/A8Gy3M5j7SOKXNZjmbknNIA
Enharmony1625,
I just checked the Robert Ball Beautiful Death HBO website and nothing yet for episode 6. I sure hope we see it soon. I love what he has done for GOT.
kevin1989,
I don’t know man. It’s okay you liked this season. But saying it was one of the best. Well, it simply feels awkward. You don’t need to be a critic to admit, it had a lot of flaws of the screenwriting nature.
It doesn’t matter if it’s Game of Thrones. Season 8 gave us a generic, fantasty story. And it was FULL of inconsistencies – Rhaegal dies of 3 consecutive scropion shots; but Drogon dodge them all in episode 5.
Varys – a Master Mind in GoT goes into open rebellion, betraying Daenerys. It was awkward too to see someone who, like Littlefinger, outplayed everyone to eventually outplay himself in such a stupid way. It was just out of his character.
The Night King threat had been built up for like 3 seasons as a metaphor for the apocalipse – inevitable end for a humankind that fights for little things like the throne. It deserved to be a huge plotline, maybe for an entire season alone. And yet, they get to the gates in the end of episode 2 and are defeated in episode 3. NO WHITE WALKER fought in this battle. The startegy for this episode was dumb as hell. Make a recall to the Battle of the Whispering Woods – that was a startegy. But they needed exposition once again – to show Dothraki dying in a matter of seconds to built the tension. Beautiful scene, but meaningless after all.
Jon served ABSOLUTELY no purpose, apart from being a plot device to push Daenerys to madness. His Winterfell defense plan was retarded. He revealed his parentage to Daenerys right before the battle began. He was blindly loyal. I mean, it really gives this weird impression that his character development was dramatically cut and all he learned from Jeor Mormont, his father, the Night’s Watch – was for nothing. He’s just dumb and that’s it. A funny coincidence he’s a Targaryen. And you know what? Apart from pushing Dany to madness, it had NO purpose at all.
Bran – no warging, no connection with the Night King, no flashbacks. Nothing. They just forgot about him and made him a king in the end (I know it’s Martin’s idea too – and I believe it’d be great in his version). And the funniest part is that this season they built his character as a planning mastermind. That he planned all these events, which is proved by the final episode. I mean, it’s kind of a nonsense. He was just there to give some call-back one-liners like: “the things we do for love” and so on.
And by the way, they ran out of ideas for good dialogs, so that they flooded us with the call-back lines. That’s great when it’s rare. But when every sentence is an call-back. Nope.
And yeah, we had time-travels, plot holes, and inconsistencies in previous seasons. But the scale of all this garbage in the final one was HUGE.
Just imagine – 6 episode (no matter how long) to fit: Night King being defeated; Jaimie redemption arc; Varys meeting his end; Jon Snow ending up beyond the Wall; DAENERYS GOING MAD.
It wasn’t possible. This story easily needed 10 episodes in both season 7 and 8; and a 9th season. Then, you had a time to develop the characters on much deeper level.
And that argument about some laws that protect actors… like, what? There is nothing like that in the world. And believe me – 1 year wouldn’t make a lot of a difference to them. I felt spoon-fed this season and that was sad.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
This. So. Much.
And unfortunately, it aplies to many characters this season.
Varys and his open rebellion – out of character.
Arya killing the Night King – nonsense that is being escused by the fact she trained to cheat the God of Death.
Jon – being reduced to none but a plot device to push Daenerys into madness. Not to mention his legacy meant nothing after all; his parentage served more of a fun fact purpose.
Cersei – she had like… 10 lines? There was absolutely no perspective of her character. The only thing they shown was that in the end she was weak and fearful (which, in fact, was great but that’s the only thing that was great about this character in season 8).
Tyrion – blind and loyal fool. Such a downfall since season 6.
Bran – no warging; no magical connection with the Night King; no flashback. Just a few call-back “oneliners”.
Adam,
Translation:
Varys – wasn’t smart and cunning enough.
Jon – didn’t serve enough of a purpose.
Tyrion – wasn’t smart enough.
Bran – wasn’t powerful enough.
…
Arya – too powerful and cunning, and served too big a purpose.
Yeah, I see a pattern here.
Adam,
Season 8 was my third favorite season, so I really liked it too. That’s not to say it was perfect. Of course it had flaws, every season of every television show in history has had flaws. How many flaws depends upon the individual, as quality is subjective. What didn’t work for you may have worked out perfectly for me.
Rhaegal was injured and his maneuverability was limited. Besides, his was a surprise attack that he didn’t see coming. Drogon was at full strength and once Rhaegal went down, the element of surprise was lost. He saw the bolts coming and dodged, so no inconsistency here.
Varys was always about serving the realm and its people since the very first season. He saw the warning signs of what Danerys was about to do and tried to save the people of King’s Landing at the cost of his own life. This is consistent with his character.
The Night King was built up for 3 seasons and was defeated in the longest, most climatic battle in film history. He received the ending he deserved. As for the White Walkers, they knew they were vulnerable, so why would they enter the fray instead of allowing their soldiers to do all the work. The Dothraki is the strongest calvalry in the world, and they were used as any calvary. Using calvary has always been a highly effective military strategy and often made the difference between victory and defeat. Why wouldn’t they use them?
Jon is the one who brought everyone together to fight the army of the dead. He fought the Night King on dragon back. He and Danerys worked together to knock the Night King off his dragon, which was key to his defeat. Sure, his parentage led to Dany’s downfall, but he wasn’t a plot device. He was a character who Danerys loved, who was going through an identity crisis, who loved her despite knowing they could never be together, and who ended up having to kill her to save the world from her, choosing duty over love. Jon did plenty this year.
I actually agree with you about Bran. I wish he played a more critical role. I’m sure he’ll be more integral in the books. I’m fine with him being king, though. The bar has been set very low, the only way to go is up. Besides, he has some of the most honorable people sitting on his small council, and Bronn, too.
There was plenty of new dialogue.
The only large time gap was in episodes 4 and 6. The earlier seasons were much worse. I’m not sure what plot holes you’re referring to. The term is very often misused.
The war with the Night King was already set up from previous seasons, so not a lot of time was needed to end the war. Jaime’s redemption was him riding North to fight the army of the dead. Varys’s death was foreshadowed last season and not a lot of time needed to be dedicated. Same with Jon going North. Danerys burning down King’s Landing has been set up for several seasons. And no, the story certainly didn’t need 9 seasons.
Clob,
She really is! I’m not usually a short film person either, but I have a love for horror films and they have those on that channel as well. My goal in life is to find something that truly scares the crap out of me. 😆 Anyway, Ronald Pickup is also a favourite of mine, and when it popped up I was really pleased! 😊
For sure! She’s so expressive, and it was sweetly sad yet uplifting as well.
onefromaway,
I rarely seek things out like this if I haven’t heard of them somewhere else, so it was a nice surprise! ❤
The acting categories are indeed blocked so far for this show. Lena Heady should have won a long time ago. Unfortunately, this season is not the one for her.
Kit – IMO should probably submit E4. His funeral speech was fantastic.
Maisie – Give her the damn Emmy please. I know this would mean Lena would not get her long deserved award, but Maisie SOOOO deserves it this season.
Carice – Should win.
Peter – I adore him but if he wins and noone else does this season I will rage. There are so many actors on this show who deserve recognition.
Young Dragon,
I agree with you. Also when you realize that NK already won at Fist if the First Man, Hardhome, 3ER’s cave, Frozen Lake and Eeastwatch puts his deafeat at WF in different perspective.
That storyline did’t start in S8. It’s not like WW did nothing in the past 7 seasons.
1. Why does he need a moment like that at all? He knew Cersei was pregnant in season 7 already, meaning it’s always on his mind. Do you think a father would forget he has an unborn child all of a sudden? You can see him in conflict lying awake next to Brienne the whole time. He was in conflict for weeks. The only thing that I have a small problem with here is that he didn’t act the moment Dany left. It would have made more sense if he left 1 day after Jon to avoid conflict.
2. Don’t think everything to literally. Of course he cares. It’s more a defeat talk that he had. Not wanting to be responsible for saving them again etc. He is tired, locked up by Dany, not a way to save them. And of course his unborn child weight more to him.
3. I would have wanted some more scenes too with Jaime. I had a beautiful scene in though a while back when I put in a scene at the beginning of episode 4 where Jaime would have been at the inn of Hot Pie, talking about his honor and love, once he left Sandor would enter with Arya. Just some small scene would have made it from a 8,5/9 season to a9,5/10 for me.
Enharmony1625,
Jaime in S8 doesn’t make sense only of you are obsessed with this idea that Jaime has to kill Cersei. His decisions make complete sense based on the way his character was written.
D&D always wanted to show that this was toxic relationship they both were responsible for. Jaime wasn’t some good man manipulated by an evil women, that he has to kill and become a hero. They were both bad. As Tyrion said, Jaime always knew what Cersei was but he loved her anyway. He is not victim in that relationship.
Fans always wanted signs that Jaime doesn’t love Cersei anymore but the show never gave that. It wouldn’t make any sense for him to just let her die alone. There was no reason for that.
Love is the death of duty.
kevin1989,
Yes it could have have 1 or 2 episodes more, but more of that would be stretching the show to much and wouldn’t have worked
Yes. It most definitely, would have worked. Several complaints that millions of viewers have with the final season would have been rectified if only certain things were “fleshed out” more to give adequate meaning and substance for the conclusion and this could have been achieved with some additional episodes.
ygritte,
In the core of complaints about S8 is what happened, not how. Execution is just an excuse.
Audience wanted epic duel between NK and Jon. They wanted Arya or Jaime to kill Cersei. They didn’t want Bran on throne. They didn’t want Dany to die as tyrant. They wanted Starks to accept Daenerys. They wanted Cersei to suffer. They wanted WW as final enemies. They wanted at least some of the couples to get happy ending. And so on.
And having millions of people complain means nothing when you have 44 milions watching every episode in US only. And watching legally. Worldwide we are speaking about hundreds of millions watching GoT both legally and illegally.
Oh, absolutely.
I’d have been pleased by Cersei dying at Jaime’s or Arya’s hand, and definitely by her suffering more than she did…anticlimactic, but okay, guess it was what it was. Not too unbelievable within the context of what was going on. It wasn’t that people started out not wanting King Bran—that just came out of left field and probably wasn’t justified/explained well enough for most. I doubt I’ll ever be fully satisfied by it. I’ll never believe in what was done to Dany or how; if George ever finishes the books I’m curious as to how he’ll supposedly handle her insanity. Much of what audiences wanted to happen wasn’t unrealistic fantasy or pet fan theories they couldn’t let go of, but just generally what would’ve made the most sense…what this complex series had been building up and toward since its inception. One of my fellow irl watchers expressed interest in starting from the beginning rather than re-watching the ho-hum finale as she’d considered, but another said “Why bother? The ending sucked.” I’m refusing to let disappointment spoil the entire masterwork for me, trying so hard–but alas I can imagine that won’t work for many.
The only writing credit should have been to Bryan Cogman for his beautiful set up episode. Wasn’t that episode 2? It was by far my favorite of the season, when my expectations were still untarnished by all the issues that began in #3.
Episode 2 seems grossly underrepresented in the submissions.
ygritte,
There have been accurate criticisms of pacing: Rushed storyline + diluted characterisation (like Godfather 3). GoT didn’t need a few more seasons, but it would definitely have benefited from a few more movie-length episodes in Season 8 so that the characterisations and events would have flowed more realistically and logically. As things stand, sometimes it feels like you’re watching a series of “highlights clips” rather than the full story.
For example, an extra episode or two focusing on King’s Landing under Dany’s rule would have been a good idea — the impact on the civilian survivors (including their reaction to the massacre), not just the scenes of nameless dead bodies everywhere, plus the continuing actions of the Unsullied as an occupying army; D&D could have drawn on Josephus’s horrifying account of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, but there are plenty of other historical examples from around the world too. During all this, also show escalating differences of opinion between the Northern forces and the Unsullied with regards to the treatment of civilians, depictions of urgent debates between the rulers of the surviving aristocratic houses, perhaps also show the varied reactions of independent rulers across Essos who find out about Dany’s “conquer the world” speech and realise what’s in store for them.
That sort of thing — cascading events across several episodes building up to Jon finally pulling the trigger against Dany. Same need to stretch out Season 8 as a whole too.
As many have already said, it’ll be interesting to see how GRRM’s books end up dealing with this.
I’ve posted a detailed reply to Adam too but the website’s filter seems to have grabbed it. Hopefully it’ll show up above my reply to Ygritte in a while.
mau,
And “love is more powerful than reason” (Tyrion). Definitely agree.
I also completely reject the idea that Jaime’s arc was “ruined”, or that it was all for nothing due to how his story ended. Does every character who is set on a redemption path have to achieve it? No. His arc is ultimately tragic, but I still love his character and think he is one of the most complex and interesting in the story.
shelle,
I have to admit I was rooting for Jaime to kill Cersei as well in some kind of dramatic and climactic way, and this is what I predicted consistently in the off-season. (I’ve come to accept and appreciate the way they did go out in the end though).
But I was always very much against Arya killing her, and it simply doesn’t work given her arc, which was always going to be about turning away from a life of anger, killing, and revenge.
Adam,
Yes it had a lot of flaws in the screenwriting nature, as all season had. Especially season 2 and 5. GoT had always had a big problem with critics because they jump from 10 different story lines in 1 episode. If you’re in a storyline from a certain character in that episode, to bad, that was the only scene you get this episode. Next wait another getting into that storyline. Too bad it’s over. Especially season 2 had that problem. Lots of critics said that they needed to have less characters per episode, and less episode per character. Having more screentime per character per episode. Season 8 was much better. Look at 8×04 which is my least favorite, we spend 50 minutes in one setting, just one evening. Then 30 minutes setting/storyline 2. It had the most straight forward storytelling. No time jumping like season 1. I have to say that I felt some scenes were missing like what happened between episode 4 and 5. But still that happened in earlier seasons too, that you think oh we just skip that moment okay. Look at Cat, she jumps from Winterfell in episode 1×02 to KL and already leaving at the end of 1×03, and back again at the inn in 1×04.
Drogon wasn’t kept in a crypt for 2 seasons, meaning he is much stronger and his armor is stronger. Yes I have to say, the logistics could have been better, scorpions on land would have been more logistical. But people tend to forget that Dany looked at wounded reagal (also why he got down and drogon not), so Dany missed the fleet because she didn’t look. Again critic because critics don’t look at all the facts.
Varys true, but I think for him the life of KL was more important then his own.
Yes the NK had been build up for the battle at Winterfell, where WINTER FELL. Seems like George already gave us a little hint where the WW will be defeated. And why does it need to be multiple battles? Look at LotR which is one of the biggest fantasy movies out there. Film 1 was the build up, film 2 was the defeat of the uruk hai which only had one big battle and they were gone. And 3 was one big battle with the orcs. Just one big battle of each enemy. This show had more build up, we saw multiple times battles with the WW. Yes the WW could have had a whole season, but how will you let them defeat at WINTERFELL where winter needs to fall? And where does the budget come from, people need to look at how much the WW scenes cost, what comes with it. I think 40% of season 8 budget went into episode 3. Because it cost very much. Who is going to pay for that? The fans who wanted more WW battles?
And why should the WW battle when they knew from Hardhome that the weapons of the humans can defeat them with one single stroke? Would be dumb if they did in fact battle wouldn’t it? Why put themselves in danger when they can send their army of the dead after the humans.
The strategy is yes, not that great. But that makes it more realistic. They had little time to prepare for a battle that none knew about how to defeat them. Does it make sense that they could come up with a great strategic battle about an enemy they never fought? And make a battle plan in such a short timeframe that would have needed weeks more to prepare? No. What they did is show us what will happen when fighting an enemy that 1. You are not prepare for and 2. You don’t have time to prepare to. But I will say this, in the mind of Bran this was in fact a very strategic battle at the human parts. Because instead of thinking how can we win against the army of the dead Bran though how can we defeat the NK. To defeat the NK somebody needs to take him out: Laying everything in place for Arya to do it since season 7. What is also needed. The NK needs to feel safe to show himself in the open. That means the NK and the army of the dead needs to feel like they won, that means Bran make sure the dothraki and unsullied would be sacrificed so Arya could take out the NK. Because if the strategy of our heroes was in fact good as you state should have happen. The NK would have left the scene back north and come back later with a new army. Meaning with the way you wanted it, the NK would not have been defeated. I will say that I hoped we would have seen a scene or 2 with the WW treat in episode 1 and 2. Battle of Last Hearth and maybe a small battle with Thormund and some weight on the way to winterfell would have helped.
Jon did not serve any purpose? Really? Would they have won if Jon didn’t brough Dany to winterfell? If he didn’t got the northern lords to winterfell? If he didn’t witness his parts in the true north with the WW and warn everybody? No Jon was the most important part about defeating the NK. Later he defeated the biggest villain of the show, Dany. He is azor Ahai and Dany was bringing the darkness. (yes the prophecy of Azor Ahai wasn’t about the NK and WW it was about defeating Dany)
Bran: He did warg as you saw at the battle of WF he lured the NK to him. Why showing flashbacks when not needed? They didn’t forget about him, they show the whole story of season 8 through his plan, to defeat the WW Dany and becoming King. He laid the seeds and it shows on screen if you would watch it carefully.
Call backs happen a lot in last season of many shows. And the last season had brilliant dialogue. And even the first seasons had bad dialogue or bad decisions. “Bad pussy” season 5. Season 1: Yes it’s totally normal to hear an important backstory of LF while not hearing anything of it because 2 woman are fingering and moaning together. (Which for me is the worst scene written of the whole series and it’s in the brilliant season 1) or do you think that scene was brilliant?
The scale of time-travel was the biggest in season 1. Season 8 was one where time-travel was the shortest of the whole saga. It only moved to the future, no going back to the past. Everything is chronically. Season 8 was the only season where everything happened chronically. So that argument that it was worse in season 8 is build on quicksand.
Same with plotholes and inconsistencies were also huge in previous seasons. And it needed nudity to let us not see it. It’s just that people have only a problem once it happened in the last season. (which lacked nudity to keep our minds of it)
It’s not 6 episodes if you count the runtime it’s 9 season 1 episodes. Which fit a lot also in just 9 small episodes. Look at for instance TD or leftovers which told a whole story in just 8 episodes. Or even better Sherlock which had 3 90 minute episode, which told every season a big story. 6 episodes is enough.
The story didn’t need 10 episode each in season 7 and 8, that would have been overkill and would have dragged the story a lot. What it needed was 7 in season 7 what we got and also 7 in season 8. Total of 14 episode instead of 13. Not 20 and another season. If you want that watch the walking dead which drag every little detail to dead. And guess what, the crew would have stopped if that happen (many were tired already with 8), many of the cast would have stopped. Peter Dinglage stated that 8 was enough. He would have worked on a season 9. Same for many others who were done with the show.
There are laws protecting employees for not working to much overtime. They were already at the max for this season. The scale is huge. That’s the problem, where other shows like for instance BB got a smaller scale in the last season meaning that they could put their experience very easily into making the last the best, D&D had it very difficult to make the story bigger and bigger every season, which cost a lot because the crew needed more man. And I can tell you two things: a season 9 would have double the budget because the actors would even double or triple their salary. And 2 to have everything you wanted in season 8 to happen with the WW and everything else the budget needed to be at least tripled. Who will pay that?
Adam,
Why are you keep telling that Bran needed to have a connection to the NK? Is the connection that the show told us not enough? That Bran is the memory of this world that needed to die because everything needed to end.
for me I get the feeling for you it is in fact the WHAT happened that you didn’t like. I have a feeling you really wanted the Bran= the night king theory to be true and that you feel disappointed it didn’t happen. (personally I’m happy that didn’t happen if I want such a far fetch theory to be true I would have watch some marvel movie or a bad anime)
Young Dragon,
I forgot one thing about Rheagal’s dead and Drogon not being defeated. Yes I still think it was a little bit too blockbustery how Euron could keep those scorpions steady at sea. Still prefered a steady land attack which would make more sense with taking Missandei. But to the point, difference Drogon and Rheagal:
1. Drogon’s armor is thicker because Drogon grew more stronger in the open in season 5 and 6. While Rheagal was kept in a crypt. Meaning scorpions could more easily penetrate Rheagals armor.
2. Rheagal was injured, he was weak, like with humans, if a human is weak just survived barely death like Rheagal did in the north, killing is easier. His wings were even injured.
3. Strategic about how Dany missed that attack, and that’s something critics many times forgot to see. Dany didn’t pay attention to the water, because she was worried about Rheagal. She looked at Rheagal not the water, seeing if he was right (which he was for a short moment then he wasn’t Evillaugh)
ygritte,
No it wouldn’t have worked. I watched a lot of movies and tv shows. And it wouldn’t have worked. If it did have more episodes it would have been a walking dead kind of storytelling, and overkill the moments.
Look at season 2 and 5. Did it needed more episodes? Both seasons could have been stretched into 2 season 10 episodes. Should they have done it? I mean we could have the battle at the stormlands like in the books that took 2 weeks. Or Brienne’s whole journey from the books. The Iron Islands and Dorne and Fake Eagon could have been in the show fleshed out better in season 5 was split in 2 seasons. Why didn’t they? Because having it in 1 would have been better.
People tend to forget that season 7 and 8 both are just one book. Why do people want 1 book told in 3 seasons?
It’s a bit like do we prefer the hobbit, the fleshed out movie which show us every detail that could be told, you rather choose that one. I rather choose the LotR route, only put in what is needed and no more.
mau,
This, the fanbase is more then 100 million. Most don’t rate imdb, most don’t signed the petition.
And everything that I read was not how it happened but what happened as you stated. The whole rewrite of season 8 is not “why didn’t they add those scenes” it’s “Ignore the story that has been told with the WW Dany and Cersei and Bran on the throne and just have the ending with the WW in the final where Dany defeats the WW as the big Hero”
People are already writing their fanfiction with Dany as the ultimate Hero.
shelle,
One thing that George had made himself easier with Dany is that the books have her “3 betrayals prohecy” which she already starts to become paranoia about. Having paranoia when you’re in your puberty will not have a positive outcome when you leave puberty.
Olli,
And Weiss wrote half of that episode. He even wrote that lovely singing scene and the songlyrics.
Jai,
I agree more episodes was needed and story. One with the WW and one with Dany cersei. But Dany dies exactly when she should have been. Having her rule and Jon watch that happen after what she did wouldn’t make more sense. And if Jon didn’t end her, Arya would have done it. She couldn’t survive longer storywise.
Enharmony1625,
Somehow it grew on me, I was the same as you I really hoped he would kill her. But wait how the books go how it will happen there. I’m still holding onto that Cersei will be defeated in wow and Griff takes the throne. Varys is creating chaos for him. And Dany had a vision about the mummers farce in the house of the undying, which is being praised (can’t find the right word) by the people of KL. Meaning that the house of the undying already forshadowed Griff’s win in KL and that Dany will face him in the end. But I wonder if Cersei will survive and flee to Casterly Rock in the books. I’m wondering how Cersei will die in the books.
kevin1989,
In my opinion you are correct. I feel like this season will age much better than the initial reactions. i still feel like episode 4 and 6 should have been split into two extra episodes but thats all i would really change about this season.
Since the filter has decided to grab my original comment along with several subsequent attempts for some reason, let me try this again one more time:
Adam,
There was recently a very good article in Scientific American that confirms the change in quality was a real thing and explains the reasons.
It’s a long article, but to summarise:
+ The biggest impact was the loss of GRRM’s source material. When D&D ran out of books to draw from, GoT’s main themes as depicted by D&D on-screen changed from “big picture” issues about power and politics (heavily based on real world history, one of the reasons many historians loved GoT’s earlier seasons so much) to a more typical “TV drama” focused on the angst of the main characters.
+ D&D did sometimes try to include the “big picture” context, but they’re nowhere near as good as GRRM when it comes to the complexity, nuances and realism involved, either in the depiction of events or in terms of dialogue.
D&D occasionally had flashes of brilliance — the famous conversation between Olenna and Tywin, The Winds of Winter, Battle of the B_______s, The Spoils of War, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Jenny’s Song — but the problem was that kind of high quality was not consistent, which made the contrast with the rest of the final few seasons all the more noticeable.
So GoT turned from a primarily medieval drama that felt very “real” in terms of the depiction of the world and the behaviour, personalities and dialogue of the characters, to an entertaining but fairly generic “medieval fantasy”. To put it another way, it started off by subverting LOTR tropes — and hitting the target because of the realism, not the fantasy stuff — and ended by becoming a diluted version of LOTR, thereby losing the magic (no pun intended) that had made GoT extraordinary in the first place.
Another analogy: The final seasons of GoT (and especially the finale) are like The Godfather 3. It’s okay, and it’s not actually as bad as its more extreme detractors may claim — but the reason it seems worse is because it suffers badly in comparison with the magnificence of the earlier stuff.
GRRM’s eventual books will probably do a better job of handling things. The fact that he’s personally involved in at least one of the prequels (hopefully more) is also an encouraging sign of the potential quality of those shows, assuming that GRRM remains involved until the end.
kevin1989,
“People are already writing their fanfiction with Dany as the ultimate Hero.”
_____
Really? I was getting ready to write my own fan fiction with Arya as the ultimate hero… but didn’t have to. Because she WAS the ultimate hero. After dragonfire had no effect on NK, Arya saved the day (night) and saved the world when she stuck her VS dagger into that horned f*cker and shut his blue eyes forever.
(I just wish they had showed her eluding the White Walkers and leaping off a pile of dead wights as scripted, instead of materializing out of nowhere for the sake of a “Gotcha!” surprise. But I am not whinging. 🙂)
#ASNAWPTWP 👸🏻🔪🧟♂️
Nope, first of all it was a bad theory. It literally had no sense. And you would need to force a lot of material in particular direction in order to fit this theory. But connection between those two characters was obvious and really strong. Night King – was he a greenseer? Could he warg? We know nothing, it’s just a conjecture.
Isn’t being “a memory of the world” a little bit lame? Like, when I heard this line, it was such a let down I really laughed. Okay, I get it. You want to destroy the world. And now Bran serves a simple purpose. He is the said memory, so he needs to be annihilated first? But why? Because he possess knowledge that can stop the Night King? Nope – if that was a thing, Bran would be the one to trap the Night King.
And now about the trap. Why couldn’t Night King simply fly over the Godswood and burn him to the crisp? All right, it wouldn’t be as spectacular as a “trap” that Bran set on him – that he gave Arya a dagger, because he forseen this particular scene to happen. I mean, it’s all so cheesy and doesn’t add up when you really think about it. And exactly THIS is what happens when you try to involve some future-traveling into the game. It’s just messy, unclear and so on. And the line from the last episode: “Why do you think I came all this way”. It proves he arranged these events, which makes him an agent of some sort. Nonsense.
The think I would begin, if I were to change the script is that I would simply dismount the Night King from the dragon – it wouldn’t be as spectacular, but at least it would have much more sense, that he didn’t burn the whole city down attacking them from behind. That he, and his generals had to stay behind no to get into the risk of fighting the Valyrian steel. And when the army of the dead cleared the path – they would go straight into a melee combat. It would be better, if Rhaegal died here, and Jon fell, so he need to confront the Night King face to face. It would also give a chance for Bran to use his Master Warging Skills to eventually warg into the dragon – I don’t know, maybe to distract the Night King. Whatever man, anything that would give Bran more things to do/ more story to unfold through visions/ more meaning rather than a freaking being a “memory of the world”.
The Night King simply had NO reason not to push this fancy, freezing ice wall onto them, and fly over the city destroying it and burning everyone. He had no reason to go for the Bran first, as Bran was in fact no threat to him after all.
I would still stay with the statement, that script was rushed and quite low-effort, and it gave no screen time for this relation to flourish properly. I guarantee, that if this season had 10 episodes, this particular plotline would be much more developed, and you would know what is the meaning of the symbols that Night King leave from the series themself, not from and interview a screenwriter. And if that was the case, you would still be pleasently surprised. It amuses me, that people accept what they got as a best ending possible, but in fact they would appreciate it just as highly, if the script was simply good.
It’s not about the Game of Thrones itself. It would be the case of any other show/ fantasy story. Characters just became flat. Deus ex-machina is on the agenda of almost every episode. Forget these rushed travel times – it’s only a drop in the bucket of stupidity. Euron – one of the characters with the greatest potential to be twice as savage than Ramsay and Joffrey combined. And what happens since the 7th season to him? He’s a wannabe pirate boy, with unwitty, not really funny “one-liners”. Someone, who is absolutely meaningless in that game. And what is the reason this character is so poor – they actually have the source material for him? They had no time to develop this character. And it’s not only my own opinion. Pilou Asbæk said it couple of times, that he prefers much more the portray of book’s Euron than the shows’ one.
So it’s not that I disliked these characters because they didn’t achieve my expectations. It’s the other way around. I don’t like them, because they have little to no meaning in the series. They are poorly-written, boring, and they lack true motives that rule in the world of script-writing. It was super-exciting to travel through GoT’s events with Bran. The culmination was the 6th season. I loved it. Since season 7, it was a bit let down, but season 8. God damn it, that was horrible.
Jai,
“GRRM’s eventual books” is an oxymoron.
Stew,
True, I think storywise it would have made more sense. One episode as conclusion in the north. And one the way south and starting the Cersei vs Dany vs Jon. And one defeating Dany with one last episode just what after the dead of Dany. But I think they wanted to avoid having the same as episode 7×07 where there was a stand-off at the gates of KL that didn’t result into battle.
for me this would be the ultimate extended season (which will not happen but a man can dream right)
1. Same as the show but only with a cold opening or showing us the battle at Last Hearth and Varys looking at LF grave (extra 7 minutes)
2. Same as the show but having an extra scene with some wights/ and talk about the PTWP (extra 7 minutes)
3. Same as the show but having a sequence at the crypts where Sansa killing a wight. I think this was originally planned and I think filmed. Sansa got Arya’s knife, and we know that Sophie said Sansa shows some physical strength this season or something. I think this scene was shortened for runtime reasons. (extra 4 minutes)
4. Same as episode 4 part 1
5. Same as epiosde 5 part 2: missandei Dany scene + Missandei Cersei scene + Dany missing 2 weeks (10 minutes extra)
6. Battle of the bells
7. Defeat of Dany no extra scenes
8. What after Dany’s death. + Dany being buried in the crypts of Mereen by drogon. That would have been beautiful with the Stark montage. Starks blossom while the Targs perish in a silent grave. + a cold opening of the north leaving WF with an army. (10 minutes max extra)
Adam,
“… Isn’t being “a memory of the world” a little bit lame? Like, when I heard this line, it was such a let down I really laughed. Okay, I get it. You want to destroy the world. And now Bran serves a simple purpose. He is the said memory, so he needs to be annihilated first? But why? Because he possess knowledge that can stop the Night King? Nope – if that was a thing, Bran would be the one to trap the Night King.”
_____
Yeah, I still don’t understand this “memory of the world” thing.
I also wonder if the NK = Mothership cliche* (i.e., killing NK deactivates ALL WWs and wights) was tacked on after S7 to simplify eliminating AotD. It was supposed to be so critical that Bran download all of 3ER’s database and survive, that Hodor, CotF et al. sacrificed themselves so he could escape; and Sam stole Citadel books to (supposedly) find information to help Jon defeat the WWs. Nothing ever came of Bran’s psychic knowledge or Sam’s book knowledge.
* That cliche has been (over-)used time and time again, e.g., in “Independence Day”, “The Edge of Tonorrow”, “Starship Troopers”, and countless other movies and shows.
If the entire AotD could be decimated by whacking NK, he would never leave himself vulnerable. He would not have marched out to the edge of the dock at the end of “Hardhome.” He would not have left himself a well-aimed DG spiked ball flail away from pulverization at the Frozen Lake. (I’d put my money on the Hound nailing NK with a spiked dragonglass flail from 100 yards away.) He would not have come near WF for the climactic battle: he would’ve let his lieutenants lead the attack on Bran while he hung back, safely away from any errant spears or VS dagger-wielding ninja princesses.
Pigeon,
Thanks for the recommendation! Now I feel sorry for Pilou…
Ten Bears,
No McCann, no Cogman. Fucking travesties.
IMO, preventing the Night King from torching the Godswood was actually part of Jons battle strategy. The plan was to stay close to Bran with the dragons to protect him. Of course, Dany abandoned the plan after the charge of the Dothraki. But after Jon and Dany got separated in the snowstorm, Jon returned to the walls of Winterfell with Rheagal and waited there (doing Nothing, as some claim). But Jon was ready, when the Night King finally appeared and attacked him immediatly. This is why the Night King only got off one shot of blue fame at Winterfell. The following fight between Rheagal and Viserion resulted in the Night King’s fall, which ultimatly left him vulnerable to Arya’s dagger.
Ten Bears,
Thanks!!! I remember that being on my radar when it first came out, but then I never got around to watching it.
palushka,
Thanks!!!
Jai,
I see no reason to believe that GRRM will do better job, because he lacks the ability to conclude the story. The cast of characters just gets bigger and bigger. There are no signs that he knows how to bring them together.
GRRM has very clear idea where every major character will end, but he doesn’t know how to bring them there.
He had 25 years and failed.
Ten Bears,
I’ve said on several occasions that Bran’s story, character, and purpose should have been fleshed out more, so I agree with the criticisms here.
If I had to take a stab at it though, memory/knowledge is true death as Sam points out, and part of Bran’s destiny of becoming king is rooted in the fact that he has all the knowledge of human history to draw on in order to lead better into the future.
There’s a lot we can read into this and interpret, about the importance of knowledge and passing it on for the advancement and betterment of civilization, but they should have devoted more time to this in the show.
Ten Bears,
Yes, I never liked the “Mothership” cliche either, but in this case it makes sense. The White Walkers and wights are puppets, the Night King is the puppeteer. Kill the puppeteer and the puppets fall. I do think they should have set this up in Hardhome, though.
Speaking as a member of the committee, these are some super duper selections.
reznalp,
Well, yeah. That’s what the show portrayed, I understand it. My point is that move was cliche. They needed “something” to balance the power of the Night King out. So they put Rhaegal at the wall of Godswood, so that the Night King got scared. But the fact is, that he could easily fly there on the full speed and burn the city to the crisp. Jon wouldn’t even have a time to react. And don’t forget that Bran has a GPS tracker inside him and the Night King can easily locate him. So basically he knew from the very beginning that Bran would be in the Godswood. There was nothing that could stop the Night King from going full obliviation-mode focusing on the Godswood.
And the whole sequence of Bran predicting the future… my biggest complain is that Bran’s entire role has been reduced to someone who has to let the events happen, without being even an agent, so that things that are already determined can occur. Which basically means, that Bran’s existance has no meaning. He does not need to do anything to make shit happen. Please, be aware it’s a fantasy series. And as far as I am an advocate for realism, the show also needs to be entertaining.
He. Did. Nothing.
Throught the entire season he did not take a single meaningful action. He was there simply to stay and stare and wait for the events to unfold on their own. So what’s he’s point I ask again? What was the training to become the Three-Eyed Raven for in the first place? Why didn’t they decide to involve this character in battle planning? Why would you reduce the most powerful persona in the world to someone who just shoot some call-back oneliners like “the things we do for love” or “chaos is a ladder”. Why would we get to know what these symbols of the Night King meant from an interview rather than from the show itself? Maybe Bran’s vision would be a perfect opportunity to explain it? Why Bran after reaching his maximum skills (by wargining into a human from the past inside the dream vision – young Hodor) didn’t go for more, and warged into a dragon? A scene, that would not make the story worse, but instead would give Bran a thing to do – and certainly would be spectacular.
And in the end… okay, it’s highly possible he would become the king in the books too, but thanls to season 8, he actually has one of the worst and most disappointing “story”. Don’t you think that an omniscent man becoming a king of the kingdoms is quite cheesy? Like, there is no way that kingdoms can ever go into war. There is no way some people can assasinate him. There is no reason why he would need any Masters (of Coins; of War; and especially of Whispers). It’s really anticlimatic. And yet, people say that Jon becoming a king would be too obvious and cringey. Or Jon killing the Night King would be too obvious too. But guess what… D&D said, that the only reason he was not the one to kill the Night King was THAT FACTOR. That it would be predictible!!!! So what? Why for the seven hells, suprise value be a factor of a good script? What about the foreshadowing and build-up?
Meh, this season was a huge mess. If someone enjoyed it, then it’s okay. But I truly disliked it a lot for many reasons. I won’t lie, there were many scenes that were truly beautiful. Some shots/ moments, that were really powerful and can easily make it’s place in top 10 scenes of the series. But what about it, if these have to shoulder the burden of a bad script for the rest of the season?
Not sure, if D&D are competent enough to make this series better with 10 episodes rather than 6, but it would certainly give a room to breathe, since that was actually heavy-action-packed season, with little to no good dialogs. Probably they felt they wouldn’t be able to make it good enough, so they decided to cut it into 6 episodes. Shame on them.
They did not say that was the only reason! It’s beyond ridiculous how you and some others jump to these conclusions, or are completely unable to infer anything beyond what is said at face-value. It was clearly done in servicing Arya’s arc to have her kill the NK, as well as giving her a big moment now that she reintegrated into the main plot. They also clearly thought out the connection she has with death (a main theme of her story) including the callbacks to her training with Syrio and the eyes prophecy. It also works in perfectly with her abandoning her dark path of anger and vengeance by killing the manifestation of the God she has previously said she follows.
I’m not saying you have to like it, but to say it’s nonsense or has no setup or proper context within the story is objectively false and is just people trying to blame the writing for an outcome they didn’t want. Deal with it.
Adam,
You’ve encapsulated my own thoughts perfectly (and not for the first time).
So far I’ve rewatched only the first three episodes of S8, and that was within days of their airing. I’ll definitely rewatch the whole season before Con, and I fervently hope I find more to love than very specific elements—among them the dragons above the clouds, Melisandre’s death, the cinematography in “The Bells,” Arya’s last scene with the Hound, and Ramin’s consistently brilliant music.
I do realize, as kevin1989 argued, that some of the inconsistencies in timing have happened in earlier seasons. (And Dorne was a disaster and a waste of a very fine cast.) But I do think they were easier to overlook or forgive because they were a small part of something that was for the most part brilliant. I’d forgotten about Littlefinger’s jetpack for the simple reason that there were more highlights than stumbles. Alas, in the last two seasons the opposite has held true: The lapses in logic and rushed pace have stuck in my craw because there have been far fewer great dialogues and character moments to “absorb” them. It’s been almost a month and I’m still stewing over Euron ex machina, Sansa’s inexplicable bitchiness to Jaime, the breathtakingly incompetent military strategy in Ep3, Jon becoming spineless, Bronn getting Highgarden, and CleganeBowl actually being a thing (to name just a few). The things I love about S8 are totally overshadowed by the things I hate, and I do hope that, after the collective disappointment of a substantial percentage of the fandom is dissipated, we’ll be able to keep loving the show without always experiencing a sour aftertaste.
/end rant
Young Dragon,
*Cavalry
Calvary is the hill where Jesus was crucified.
Adam,
Bran did set everything into motion for everything to happen in season 8. He gave Arya the dagger (forget if that was last season or this season). He let Jaime live, which was important for the bells to ring. He told Sam to tell the truth NOW it has to happen BEFORE the NK arrives. He planted that seed in Jon and Dany at that moment. To make sure the NK will be defeated and so that Dany will be defeated. What makes it clear (this is just speculation) that the best possible future was the burning of KL.
So to say he was just there to wait till events to unfold is just wrong. He made the events. He made everything so he could be king at the end and first step of democracy could take step into Westeros. So yes that’s why Jon being king is not that great, because once again monarchy is strong.
Not sure, if D&D are competent enough to make this series better with 10 episodes rather than 6, but it would certainly give a room to breathe, since that was actually heavy-action-packed season, with little to no good dialogs. Probably they felt they wouldn’t be able to make it good enough, so they decided to cut it into 6 episodes. Shame on them.
Yes the ones that made this series possible are incompetent. The ones that brought many good dialogue to the show that weren’t in the books. Like the robert Cersei scene from season 1. The ones that needed to heavily alter Bryan’s season 8 episode. The ones that needed to alter George’s episodes heavily because many things were missing. Did you know they wrote that amazing Sandor Bronn scene from blackwater? That was not George that was them.
And it’s strange for me that they got all the attacks without us knowing what was in the scripts, even when watching “the last watch” I felt like there was much more in the scripts that was put to screen and things were changed. Didn’t Arya jump off a bunch of dead bodies to kill the NK that wasn’t in the airing of the episodes, meaning that it was cut. Maybe there was a small battle suppose to be with the WW that was cut, who knows. Maybe it was to expensive some scenes, maybe no time to film, maybe HBO wanted to cut the episode runtime to 80 minutes (Which make sense many actors expected 90 minute episodes or more). Maybe it was filmed and supposed to air but the CGI guys couldn’t finish the minor scenes. They told us that they would work till 31 of May, made me feel they needed to that date to implement everything but the show ended a week before that.
So just wait till the script of episode 6 airs once the Emmy nomination is there.
Wolfish,
Thanks. I guess now I know why my autocorrect kept trying to capitalize it.
Enharmony1625,
If Arya didn’t kill the NK, meaning Arya wouldn’t kill one mayor enemy in season 8 (no Cersei and Dany needed to die the way they did and Dany by the hand of Jon no other should have done that), people would complain that she didn’t do a killing. And then I expect that the same people would have said. Why not give the NK to Arya instead of Jon, why did Jon need 2 mayor kills and Arya non.
Wolfish,
I think that’s more to do that season 8 is more streamlined. It just had 2 mayor storylines (3 if you count Dany but I think her and Cersei is in fact one storyline, and Cersei was part of Dany’s arc). And we only got one storyline at a time (only Cersei in episode 1 was a small glymps of the future). And also every scene was important in season 8, not a single “filler” scene, yes even episode 2 everything was important. Meaning that everything was held under a microscope more in season 8. Where as in the past only 1 scene per storyline was given. If it didn’t work fine because other storylines worked, if those worked the episode received in a positive daylight. And most of the time the good storylines were the ones that we like to watch Arya, Dany, Jon for instance. And we also had the luxury to think about our amazing theories that the show we watch was just a major build up to that big moment.
oh yes I agree with Bronn, for me I didn’t mind him getting Highgarden, but paramount of the reach, that should have be Sam or his family, the ones currently holding the family household.
kevin1989,
D&D also wrote Oberyn’s “I will be your champion” speech, the Hound’s chicken speech, Hardhome, the Hound vs. Brienne, the Sept explosion, Jon being crowned king, Arya killing the Freys, Cersei taking revenge on Ellaria, Olenna’s death, and much, much more. They took two books that were critically polarized by the fan base and created an Emmy award winning season. Martin himself called the series unfilmable and yet D&D still transformed the material into one of the most successful television series in history. Incompetent is not the word I would use.
Young Dragon,
Sure! It’s a really common mistake. I always figure I’d rather have one of my fellow nerds correct me on something like this than, say, a prospective boss who’s been given a writing sample.
On that note… I have three languages set on my iPhone keyboard (English, Spanish and Portuguese), and when I’m on my phone autocorrect does some really entertaining things sometimes. 😂
Precisely. Or worse, they are fine with Arya not having a major impact or killing anyone of significance because they are under some delusion that this is the Jon Snow Show and that Arya is peripheral or some other nonsense. While Jon and Dany are the most central characters in the story, characters like Arya, Sansa, Tyrion are just below that in terms of importance and prominence in the story, each with their own arcs. None of these characters are supporting to other characters in any way.
In terms of the Stark children, Sansa rules the North, Bran is king, and if Arya didn’t kill the Night King, then what? What’s her big moment and impact on the story? She killed the Night King because it fit her arc thematically and practically (with her training). Jon killed Dany because it fit his character’s theme of love, duty, and honor. It’s really nice how all these pieces fit together when you look at all their arcs.
Enharmony1625,
Wow. So let me quote what David Benioff said in Game of Thrones | Season 8 Episode 3 | Inside the Episode (HBO): “We hoped to kind of avoid the expected, and Jon Snow has always been a hero, the one who’s been the savior, but it just didn’t seem right to us, for this moment. We knew it had to be Valyrian steel, to the exact spot where the child of the forest put the dragonglass blade to create the Night King, and he is uncreated by the Valyrian steel.
And from Game of Thrones | Season 8 Episode 3 | Game Revealed (HBO): “It’s probably three years now, or something, we’ve known that it was gonna be Arya who delivers that fatal blow.
Now, don’t you ever tell me that the onlyreason they did that subversion wasn’t a need to surprise the audience at any cost. It was. There is no other reason we know, and no other reason we can deduce. Why would they swap these characters back to 3 years before this videoclip was created? Certainly not because of some Kit Harington’s health problems or something around that.
“It was clearly done in servicing Arya’s arc to have her kill the NK, as well as giving her a big moment now that she reintegrated into the main plot. They also clearly thought out the connection she has with death (a main theme of her story) including the callbacks to her training with Syrio and the eyes prophecy.”
Yeah, they clearly did that to honour Arya’s character – at the cost destroying the foreshadowing and reducing Jon’s role to a guy who runs and hides from dragon’s fire, which by the way, should have melt the stone easily (at least that has been established multiple times already – like with destroying the Wall). They ignore the prophecy they have been building for years, with 7×02 being the culmination.
Yeah, God of Death… it fits. So what? Is that a great writing, if you take a character, put a dagger in it’s hand and use the connection of God of Death as a motive for that character to perform a certain action? Nope. We would need a solid preperation for that. And don’t forget that Night King is easily THE MOST important character in this world (at least for TV series/ not books). So instead of going this retarded talk of Jon vs. the Night King being boring, they could have given a genius fight, and I wouldn’t have anything against Arya helping Jon to defeat him.
Now, the famous prophecy. You should know it’s a typical retcon. They changed the story to fit that theme. By blue eyes, they didn’t mean the Night King. I remind you: they knew it’s Arya for 3 years prior to the videoclip I quoted, not in 3rd season! It was just convinient for them to use that line. And you know why I can deduce it? Because they changed the freaking ORDER, so that blue eyes are the last Melisandre mentions!
And I’ll tell you one more thing. I am deeply confident, that if that was Jon killing the Night King, you wouldn’t mind it, and maybe even then you’d say: “but it was foreshadowed”.
So, well. I’m sorry, but I don’t think this discussion can be fruitful. They simply changed the story so it would fit the idea of Arya killing the Night King. They abandoned the prophecies (which is pretty funny, becuase you use the argument of prophecy). And as far as I can agree that some prophecies are just prophecies and nothing more, it would at least require some explanation or a quick line of dialog that the prophecy was a lie. But nope, it was just out of convinience that they changed it – nad yet, people still LOVE it. Madness, since the same people wouldn’t mind Jon killing the Night King if that was executed properly. Maybe Bran and his visions could be involved in forging the Lightbringer? Or forgetting about this particular prophecy – maybe Bran could at least explain why it was important to kill the Night King in the Godswood with the Valyrian steel dagger, rather than getting that knowledge from some behind the scenes video…
Young Dragon,
And yet they failed, when they ran out of source material. And it’s not the fail based on a few faux pas. It’s a massive failure with: a huge amount of inconsistencies, world building, reactions of common people, poor dialogs, character development, executing the most anticipated storylines.
So, to be clear. I love Sansa becoming the Queen in the North. I loved seeing Sandor dying symbolically in flames. I love the idea of Jaimie and Cersei died embraced. I love the idea of Jon going beyond the Wall as some sort of Moses. I love Arya going west of Westeros. I like the idea of Dany dying.
But the way the got to these points leaves something to be desired…
That’s so forced man. There is no reason to believe that, not a single line that could prove it. You just want to believe it’s how it is. Or maybe it is, but then remember it’s a TV show, and exposition has it’s own rules.
Adam,
I guess it depends on what you mean by failed. It may have failed for you, but it didn’t fail for many other people. Seasons 6 and 7 received critical acclaim, massive viewership ratings, and broke Emmy records. How is that failing?
Season 8 may have been more polarized among critics, but it was a complete ratings success, with the finale being the most watched episode in the history of HBO. Jury’s still out on the Emmys, but I’m predicting multiple wins and nominations.
You may care about the how, but most people are criticizing season 8 because of the what.
Adam,
I’m well aware of what they said in those clips, but I’m still looking for the part where they say “the only reason we did this was..” My point being, part of the reason was to avoid the expected, but they also clearly needed something big for Arya to do, to pay off her training, and have a big impact on the WW plot now that she’s in Winterfell and reunited with everyone in this fight against the dead.
And what foreshadowing are we talking about here with Jon killing the Night King? There was certainly expectation set up that he would be the one, but expectation is not foreshadowing. Their face-off at Hardhome and at the frozen lake sets up the conflict and the expectation, but that is not foreshadowing. As has been pointed out numerous times, Jon was crucial in mobilizing and leading everyone in this fight. Everyone would be dead without him.
Yes, it does fit. Thank you. As for motivation, well there’s the whole “we’re all going to die if we don’t kill this thing”, plus “he’s going to kill my brother”. That seems like decent enough motivation for someone who has been fiercely protective of her family the whole series. And how is the NK the most important character in this world? What? That’s just your own head-canon talking. The most threatening? Maybe. It’s pretty obvious that the NK knows about Jon and what he can do, so he’s not just going to open himself up to a duel with him. But it’s good to know that you’d be okay with Arya helping Jon, supporting him in killing the Night King. Ok. You’re not okay with her having her own glory. Gotcha.
I also love it when people bring up the argument of them retconning the eyes prophecy, because George does the same thing! He describes himself as a gardener and prefers to discover story details as he writes, from book to book. So what if they didn’t originally plan the eyes prophecy to work out this way? Who. Cares. What matters is that it works. That’s the creative process. That’s part of the reward of creation, is discovering things you didn’t originally plan for.
Adam,
Enharmony1625,
Just to add a bit to the foreshadowing thing, you what is foreshadowing? Seeing the Catspaw dagger in an old book from the Citadel that then is given to Arya by Bran. That’s foreshadowing! In fact, Aziz and Ashaya from History of Westeros (who have a deep knowledge of all things ASoIaF) predicted that Arya would be the one to kill the Night King ever since she got that dagger.
Enharmony1625,
As I’ve said before:
You don’t give Chekhov’s VS dagger to a ninja assassin warrior princess in S7 unless she’s going to use it in S8.
She did.
Adam,
Well, that was well-stayed. It’s hard to refute what you wrote.
As a non-book reader, I picked apart the “warrior of light” prophecy Mel recited in S2e1, but her story about a warrior drawing a burning sword from a fire was kind of … blown off?
Ten Bears,
Correction: “well stated. “
Enharmony1625,
This all makes me wonder if GRRM didn’t tell the showrunners Arya would defeat the WWs, since that’s a pretty big part of the conclusion, even if the route the show took was a little jagged.
Ten Bears,
https://pics.me.me/picture-of-arya-and-night-king-55305571.png
Ten Bears,
I suspected from the moment it happened that she’ll play a pivotal role in the defeat of the White Walkers in the books (several other major book-centric fans agree). While she isn’t a fighter in the books like she is in the show, she is still an assassin and undergoing training for that at the HoB&W. In addition, she’s also a very powerful warg.
shelle,
“… I’m refusing to let disappointment spoil the entire masterwork for me, trying so hard–but alas I can imagine that won’t work for many.”.
——
It’s simple. Just isolate Sandor, Arya and Beric scenes and filter out the rest.
Adam,
1. True I wouldn’t mind if Jon would have had the last blow of the NK. But the same I wouldn’t mind if Arya did it. As long as it make sense in the moment why that character did it. And it did.
2. Why does it matter that it was only 3 years? That means they still had 3 years working toward that ending. Many of the big plots in GoT weren’t in the first draft. For instance Red wedding. That was something George didn’t think of the moment he wrote the first book. His first plan was getting Cat back to winterfell and flee with Bran beyond the wall. He changed it because it was better.
3. You say they did nothing with the prohecy by not letting Jon killing the NK. Tell me how is George going to implement that prophecy without 1 entity holding the WW together like in the show? Do you think he will have a big stand-off with the WW in the books? probably not, because probably the prince that was promised isn’t meant to be a Harry Potter vs Voldemort kind of prophecy. For me 3 things can be possible what the prohecy meant:
a. The Prince that was promised is not supposed to fight the big baddie but in fact get everyone together to fight the big baddie.
b. The Prince that was promised is in fact multiple characters.
c. The Prince that was promised prophecy wasn’t about the WW treat at all. It was about the treat against fire.
3 of the most logical explanations of the prophecy, which all 3 came true in the end. For me the Chosen One kind of prophecy is something I don’t like personally. Would I have mind if Jon was the one battling the NK? of course not, it would have probably be amazing. Would it be worse or better. Depends where you stand, do you want the same that every story tells, then yes it would be better to have Jon do it. Do you want a story to move away from the mainstream big hero vs big villain, then no what the show did was better.
4. Why does every little detail that you could think of yourself by watching the show need to be explained? I mean everyone knows it needed to be the godswood and dragonglass to end the NK because that’s how he was created. Why does it need to be the said in the show? Are the GoT fans not smarter than the average viewer, wasn’t that the reason why GoT was not amazing because it didn’t explain every little detail and people needed to think for themselves.
5. Many shows and movies decide mayor plotpoints later on in the show. Even lotr was written by the page. The only endgame was the ring needs to be destroyed. Tolkien didn’t even know who would destroy the ring at first or how that character would get to that point. He though of it the moment that page was ready to be written. It’s not bad to have something big just deciding in the moment itself what is best in that moment.
And don’t forget what Tyrion said about prohecy’s: Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.
So don’t take prophecies to literal.
And I want to say I like discussing it with you. Very interesting discussion.
Adam,
Don’t forget that even George don’t know how to go there. So this is not a problem of D&D. They put this to screen in just a short time frame, with a big deadline. (If I remember 2 weeks max per episode). Not even George can do that. (D&D needed to heavily edit George’s scripts of the show so that’s that). If D&D got the time George got. Having 3 years to write one season, they would have put of the most brilliant master piece there is. Same with George if George would have had the deadlines D&D got, 2 or 3 years max per books, the books would be awful. It’s not that George is great and D&D are not, it’s that George have much much more time to write his books then D&D got with writing this season. But I think the fans wouldn’t have liked it if every season of GoT was 3 years apart.
Isaac words before the season say something else, Isaac stated Bran’s job in season 8 is to put everything in place where everything needs to be. It’s not even forced it’s also very visible on screen.
season 7: giving Arya the dagger.
8×01: Telling Sam, Jon needs to know BEFORE the NK comes to WF. The truth bomb needed to be before the NK comes to WF
8×01: Waiting for a friend
8×02: Making sure Jaime survives.
8×03: The way Bran looks before Theon dies. He sacrifices Theon so Arya could sneak in unnoticed.
8×04: Telling the Starks the truth
8×06: Being there to be King
Even Isaac’s acting makes it clear that that was what happened here. And din’t Isaac or one of the directors of this season told that in an interview after the season aired that everything happened was Bran’s plan?
I think a huge problem is that the fans needed to be spoonfed every single detail instead of connecting the dots themselves. Not that there is anything wrong with that, personally for me that is not needed if I can see the dots myself. But that’s because I like seeing mysteries solved by myself when re-watching the show (and other shows). I can see when somebody just watch the show one time just want everything being solved the first time watching.
Enharmony1625,
2 things to add:
– GoT was always a show about theme. For instance season 2 has the theme “power”.
– Jon wasn’t even at Hardhome in the books. In the books Sam and Dany have more connection to the defeat of the WW then Jon. (Eamon even stated that Dany is the prince that was promised)
Enharmony1625,
+1
Ten Bears,
Even episode 8×02 had forshadowing: I know death, it’s got many faces, I look forward to seeing this one.
Twitter broke lose after episode 8×02 with that scene that they predicted Arya to finish off the NK.
Ten Bears,
I think we can look up at the prophecy many ways. My favorite is that Jon is Azor Ahai and Dany was lightbringer (with her dragons). Or even that Dany was mostly Azor Ahai. She was born amids salt en smoke at the end of season 1. And Dany still did a massive job defeating the WW.
Another one I like even more is that Jon is in fact azor ahai. But the darkness was not only Ice but also fire. And Dany was the one to bring darkness but also Nissa Nissa. Which make sense in the prohecy if you look at it in GoT style. GoT was never to fancy about high fantasy, but the prophecy was that. But what if it was not need to be taken literally. It makes more sense that Azor Ahai needed to kill Nissa Nissa because Nissa Nissa was the one to bring the darkness. And by killing Nissa Nissa darkness was stopped.
Enharmony1625,
hahahahaha, she will use that to make the famous “Night Drink”
And it seems I once again am spamming the comment section.
THIS is why I don’t bother wasting time with any of the ‘prophecies’ in ASOIAF anymore, it can be fun to speculate a bit and read other peoples theories (there are so many!), but bottom line GRRM himself stated that prophecies are unreliable and misleading (to the reader and to the characters in the books). He highlighted this in Melisandre chapter in which we get a glimpse of her ‘powers’ and even though she does ‘see’ things in the fire, she often misinterprets them or is not sure what they mean. And as we know, is often wildly wrong! (Is she an avatar for the readers here? lol) GRRM has set up so many red-herring clues in the books, that I truly don’t think you can definitely figure out any of the prophesies or even which ones are relevant (if any at all) until he clearly states it at the end.
I don’t think GRRM set out to write a chosen one story line either, he wanted to write a more complex story than that. Having so many important POV characters signals to me that each will play some sort of important role, and those roles shouldn’t be predetermined by what you would typically read in what GRRM himself would call a ‘comfort fantasy,’ he certainly didn’t set out to write something predictable and ‘satisfying’ like that.
🤣
Adam,
Or Jon killing the Night King would be too obvious too. But guess what… D&D said, that the only reason he was not the one to kill the Night King was THAT FACTOR. That it would be predictible!!!! So what? Why for the seven hells, suprise value be a factor of a good script? What about the foreshadowing and build-up?
Adam, I agree with enharmony. Plus their decision was based on many things, which they did not go into. It had a great deal of setup. It always had to be Arya or Jon, the only Starks who could realistically kill the NK. Jon was predictable, but anyone who reflected on Arya’s history would have understood why choosing her was justified. Thanks to their 3-year lead-time, they set up foreshadowing and preparation.
But it goes back to the very beginning. In Episode 1.01, Bran took a shot but Arya got the bullseye. In Episode 1.02, she established herself as her family’s protector in the Trident incident. Coincidentally, he woke from his coma at the end of it. And Bran’s would-be assassin had told Catelyn, “You’re not supposed to be here. No one‘s supposed to be here. It’s a MERCY.” That’s when we first met the magical Dagger! In Kings Landing, Arya asked Ned about Bran. She cared, And for the next seven seasons, Arya was the constant protector of House Stark. She was connected with Death, yes, but also MERCY. Sandor kept reminding her of where the heart is to give him the Mercy. Also, in 6.10 she chose to give Frey pere et fils the grisly Old God punishment for breaking Guest Right that Bran had carefully described in 3.10. Those two had a close tie. It did not matter that Arya had no NK/AotD history.
Bran would know all this and know what she had learned in the HoB&W. Arya already was chosen by the Many FAced God,. To the MFG, who brought death as a MERCY, especially to slaves, the NK stealing death from the Dead and making them his slaves was an abomination. (I theorise that the FM had a hidden agenda to reinforce Arya’s Stark identity for the Great War while she was learning to be No One for the other war). This was his fight, and hers by being a Stark.
D&D understandably set up a few things after their decision to have her kill the NK. Sparring with Brienne in 7.04, she showed both the knife drop and her exploiting of chinks in armour. The 3-ER is an Old God, and gave the magical Dagger to her with a significant look. They gave her a prominent speech about meeting this face of Death in the only S8 trailer. The only shock was the Lord of Light’s involvement, which thye retrofitted to Melisandre’s eye-closing prophecy in Season 3. And then “Not Today.” So off she trotted…and when she killed the NK she did it the only way possible–by stealth, speed, a knife trick, exploiting a chink in armour, and a quick stab to the heart. One other thing–her method paralleled Summer’s. Both leapt from out of nowhere and thwarted Bran’s would-be killer. Arya even fell on all fours.
Arya isn’t an assassin yet, she is an apprentice… and she is a warg (only applies to wolves) and skinchanger (cat, any other animal)… I’ve had this explained to me enough now to distinguish the two, lol
It always surprises me how much of the fandom dismisses the other major characters in favor or Dany or Jon, or both together being the only ones that are the true heroes of the story… they are ice and fire (are they?)… thus they are the only ones worthy of ‘winning’ … the battles … the throne … anything of significance that may happen in the books
– Tyrion is considered one of the Big3, but often ignored in terms of how he will impact the story, he is obviously an important character, but is he ultimately only here to serve Dany? or Jon? connect them? advise them? I don’t think so…
– Arya has just as much development as Dany and yet, many people think her only purpose is to kill the people (mostly insignificant nobodies) on her list, or as many speculate kill her ‘mother’ and/or help Jon in the battles only to die, or live on in her wolf, which is just another form of death really…
– Bran is learning ‘everything’ magical and yet, his only purpose will probably be to tell Jon something significant so he can save the day… oh and become one with a tree… also he will ‘fly’ must mean he will skinchange a dragon, even though he is already skinchanging into birds… why don’t birds count as flying too?
– Sansa, well she is just there to defeat Littlefinger, the one who was truly responsible for all her family’s misery (I think she will), but is that all? She will be saved by Brienne, or Sandor, or the Blackfish, or all of them… then what? another political marriage? help Jon gain the Vale army like the show? become a lady/queen?
I think because they are younger they are often overlooked… GRRM originally thought the characters would age as he wrote, but they weren’t aging quick enough, so he thought of having a 5-year gap, but ultimately decided against it… and he has stated in an interview
Q: 5-year gap?
GRRM A: It worked for characters like Arya and Dany but not so much for the adults or those who had a lot of action coming. He was writing chapters where Jon thought, “Well, not a lot has happened these past five years, it’s been kinda nice.” And Cersei chapters where she thought, “Well, I’ve had to kill sooo many people the last five years.” So he ended up dropping it. He said he would have done it sooner if he hadn’t told so many fans about it. And there is no gap anymore. “If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it.”
A 12-year-old… at this point in the books, only Arya(11) and Bran(9/10) are the right age among the major POV characters, Sansa is still only 13… they are significant and will do/accomplish more than I think many people think ^_^
https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/US_Signing_Tour_Half_Moon_Bay_CA
https://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845
I’ve heard this asserted many times on this board, but I don’t think it’s true. Most of the critical reviews I’ve read, video podcasts, and first-hand reactions from my friends have centered around how the story unfolded, not the ending itself. Sure a few people are butthurt that Jon Snow didn’t kill the NK and others didn’t want Dany to die, but that’s been a minor criticism from where I sit. Most were disappointed by the hodge-podge writing, the lack of connective tissue, and abandoned story arcs and missing character motivations. Including me.
I appreciate that some people loved the last few episodes. I’m a bit jealous, I wish I did. But I’m not sure why those who loved the end are so upset that many of us didn’t. I think its possible for both viewpoints to be valid.
I’ve also been told I need to watch it a few more times to appreciate it. I’ve now watched the season 3 times and while I agree there are moments of brilliance, overall it just re-emphasizes my disappointment and sadness.
Not to pile on, but —
So instead of going this retarded talk of Jon vs. the Night King being boring, they could have given a genius fight, and I wouldn’t have anything against Arya helping Jon to defeat him.
The Chosen Hero defeating the Evil Villain in single combat is the oldest and most boring cliche in all of storytelling, and ending the WW threat that way would have had millions of viewers (myself included) refusing to watch the last three episodes. We hadn’t come all that way just to watch a children’s story — or a James Bond film. (Nothing wrong with either type of story, but those were not the stories we were watching.) The entire sequence where Jon Snow chases the Night’s King into and through Winterfell was beautifully written and executed to subvert this cliche.
Plus, they DID have a version of it, just before then: the NK on Wight Viserion makes a strafing run at Winterfell and the Godswood, attempting to kill Bran, but Jon and Rhaegal thwart and unseat him. But the writers subvert it by not having the fight end there. (Not only does it not end there, it starts all over again, with the NK raising all of the heroic dead and making the survivors fight them anew.)
And, Jon DOES take down the final Big Bad, one-on-one, right at her seat of power: he kills now-villanous Dany in her own Throne Room, the one her family built. It’s not a fight and he uses the element of surprise, but still, he personally kills, by his own hand, the last threat to the Realms of Men.
All of the heroic-story elements were there. They just were not presented in the usual manner. That’s why I liked the story so much. 🙂
ThisGirlHasNoName,
For my circle, those who haven’t read the books loved it, those who did read the books did not. I’ve been paying more closely to viewer reactions than critics, so maybe that’s why we’ve come to different conclusions. For the most part, I stopped reading critical reviews for all my shows because I’ve found they’ve gone downhill and have become more personal than professional. Case in point, one of the few reviews I’ve read for season 8 said “An Arya who doesn’t want revenge doesn’t make sense.” Obviously, this reviewer really liked badass Arya so much that she completely ignored her storyline and completely misunderstood her character. That’s not to say there aren’t honest, professional reviewers out there, because of course there are, but there are also a lot of crap ones.
I’m not upset you or anyone else disliked season 8. I am simply voicing my differing opinion in, hopefully, a respectful manner.
This is certainly my understanding, and opinion, as well. I never expected that I’d like where all the characters ended up (that just can’t happen with a series as large as this, with as many characters as this), but with a couple of exceptions, I understood their ends. Both of my top 2 characters died in episodes 3 and 5, and as much as I didn’t want them to go, it made complete sense to me, and was done well. My disappointment lies where you have outlined, in the ‘getting there’, which I felt was lacking. And that’s a perfectly valid criticism. 🙂
D&D should stand for Damned if they do and Damned if they don’t. It was a no-win situation. They knew it; the actors knew it. There were hints all along. In January of last year Maisie gave an interview in which she said the ending would be divisive. How could it not be? They had to use GRRM’s main ending but had diverged enough for that to be inconsistent. People fretted over too bitter, too sweet, too Disney, too nihilistic, too many deaths, too few deaths. There was no common ground. . And one cannot ignore the vast divide between fans of the two narrative segments: the Great War and the Game of Thrones. Another divergence was between advocates of the slow character and dialogue-driven episodes and the action/spectacle dominant episodes. Too much time for reunions; not enough time for reunions. I was amazed and appalled when the exquisitely balanced and elegaic 8.02, one of my top 10, was slated by many fans and even some critics. What did people expect–six episodes of war?! The spectacle-lovers got the dance of dragons, death of the Night King, two glorious battles PLUS Cleganebowl. And still howled when their expectations weren’t met. The ludicrous response has been to turn even serious and even sublime aspects to memery and mockery.
Even the rush–D&D signing on to Star Wars and a few actors wanting to move on with their careers made this almost inevitable–was bound to hurt. As a result, Season 8 was somewhat muddled. Some fans are indifferent to a few loose arcs and unanswered questions. They also tend to connect dots and therefore tolerate D&D’s propensity for having us deduce what has transpired off-screen and what is motivating character actions. Others don’t catch on or want more details spelled out and complain at what they consider plot holes that others think are fulfilled. Many people say that D&D, HBO, and GoT have ruined their lives!
I am grateful to have had this wonderful story for 20 years, to have seen it so fully and beautifully realised on television. I cannot imagine loving another programme this much again, or investing as much time and effort in it. Despite disappointments here and there, including some aspects of the Endgame this season, my only true disappointment is in how fast some fans viciously turned on it and the disgraceful behavior and sentiments towards D&D and others they have displayed. Misery loves company…and is a plague which is evident in much of the GoT online community. At least here on WotW, the nay-sayers have civilly and calmly explained their criticisms without coaxing the rest of us to become vicious ourselves, ruin people’s careers, sign ridiculous petitions, or turn on everyone and everything connected with the show. SORRY FOR THE RANT
ThisGirlHasNoName,
I don’t know where you look, but on facebook, youtube, reddit, and some other places 90% of the critic the show got is the WHAT happened. Why did Dany become the villain, she should be the hero. Why did Arya kill the NK. Bran should not be king. the NK should have been in the final. Dany would not have burn KL down. Etc. Only a small percentage are talking about the how. and most of them are rating the final season bad for GoT standards but still good compared to other shows.
And true, for me it doesn’t matter if people didn’t liked it, I had my issues but overall I liked it and for me that’s what counts.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
Wow, never seen do many forced arguments for Arya being foreshadowed. Yeah, I know it’s been foreshadowed since season 7. Well, that’s the most they could do when they retconned the plot. That’s exactly what I would do, if i came up with such a horrible idea to Arya be the Night King killer.
But, damn. You admit that it’s not that long, when they decided it’s Arya to be the killer – yet, you bring up some random line of a Catspaw Bran’s assasin, who uses “No one” in his sentence as a proof of foreshadowing. I don’t want to be rude, but that’s clearly insane…
I’m not really sure, if you understand the role and structure of proper foreshadowing.
I just read the following in at article-
Goethe wrote most of Faust at 80. Verdi wrote his Requiem at 85. Sophocles wrote Oedipus at 90. Doge Enrico Dandolo conquered Constantinople at the age of 97. Other famous people who accomplished great things at the end of the 70s and into their 80s include Chateaubriand, Kant, Michelangelo, Monet, Titian, Tolstoy and Voltaire.
So we can hope???
Wolfish,
“Sansa’s inexplicable bitchiness to Jaime”
Funny how we each have different perspectives. I, for one, found Sansa’s bitchiness to Jaime, who attacked Nedd in the street, to be her only justified reaction after what the Lannisters did to her and the Stark family. Her bitchiness to Dany seemed inexplicable to me. She would have been a pretty red haired wight without her…
kevin1989,
But it’s not about spoon-feeding. Everyone knows these things you have pointed out are meant to be a proof for Bran’s huge involvement. But it’s truly not.
It’s pretty funny you want to justify Bran’s role by telling me, that telling Jon about his parentage had a major impact on the story. Now, let me be clear. This is the same kind of involvement, like moving the rock 5 yards to the right, because the Night King will be walking this way, and that would force him to move around the rock, giving Arya more time to prepare the attack.
And what about Theon? Maybe he should have said to stay by his side, instead of charging so that would certainly give Arya more time too? Please, don’t tell me that he shouldn’t have, because that was EXACTLY enough time Bran needed.
You see, there is a great hole in that kind of thinking. I can’t disagree it’s presented at the screen, that Bran is an agent of some kind. The last episode clearly proves it. But it’s not enough. It’s pretty cheap way to portray his powers and story involvement.
So, it’s not like people are dumb, and none can see these connections. It’s rather maddening, since these connections are pretty weak, and you have to say things for yourself. Look: Bran has became the Three-Eyed Raven, and since he became that character (since season 7), there is a huge downfall of his role quality in the story. It was super exciting to see him discovering the truths of the world in the visions. It was super exciting to see the story being told through his eyes. And, when the 7th season came, we were left mostly with his raven-warging and a few lines about character’s past. That’s why his vision in the 7×07 was great (the moment he was narrating the story was probably the best of the entire season).
And then, the 8th season came, and all we see is him staring weirdly at people and giving some call-back oneliners. And then, when he finally reaveals in the last episode he knew he would become the king, then everyone is like: “ahhh, so he did all these things on purpose”. Yes, he certainly did, I agree. But the way the show presented it is… insufficient? At least for me. I get their point, but they turned this character to someone absolutely uninteresting.
And as I said, I’m not dumb so that I can’t connect the dots. I’m really into this world and books. But to be honest, I wasn’t satisfied with this character’s development. Many people try to make me, that I’m disappointed because of the theories that didn’t happen. Nope, it’s because half of the cast’s role have been reduced greatly to fit the story they wanted to tell. They forfeited the individual development for the sake of developing few characters. They dropped on giving Cersei motivations for her actions. They abandoned entirely Jon’s legacy – it’s not even brought up by people at the meeting in the last episode as an important argument. They ignored Varys’ style of whisperer. And it all simply to make Daenerys mad at any cost.
So, my conclusion is that I DO understand what they were about, but the way it’s been presented on the screen left much to be desired.
kevin1989,
Damn, that’s right. You are one of the best “opponents” I had in discussions 🙂
1. For me it did fit the theme, but wasn’t satisfying in a long term. I’d really preferd using Arya as a faceless man to kill someone important in King’s Landing or as an infiltrator. Imagine if we got a proper battle, just like BotB in the fifth episode, and Jon knew about some secret weapon/ startegy of Euron or Golden Company, that would later be revealed to be thanks to Arya and her faceless killer skills. We could even get a scene, where Cersei discusses her startegy plans with generals (just like we got in Winterfell) – not only would that give more screen time in King’s Landing, but we could also have that weird perspective pointing out that Arya might be dressed as one of the generals/ soldiers in the black suit that guards Cersei.
2. It doesn’t matter it had been 3 years. My point is, you can’t use a prophecy that happened in 3rd season to prove that it was Arya’s foreshadowing, while D&D decided it will be Arya to kill the night King as far as 3 years before the videoclip I linked. No to mention Melisandre changed the order in which she list the eyes colors to fit the theme. It’s called a retcon – changing the story to fit a new motive.
3. I don’t care about prophecies. But the building for Jon’s story was huge. He was clearly the main character and he simply deserved that predictible, but surely epic duel with the Night King. It was a true Ice and Fire battle, now that we know Jon’s legacy. His entire story arc was built as him being a savior. And as far as Martin do not like this type of storytelling, Jon is the only exception for me. Unfortunately, D&D took a different way to approach it, so interpretaating the prophecy is a waste of time, as such thing may fit clearly everyone. It would even fit Berric after all / and Melisandre.
4. Not every detail needs to be explained, that’s for sure. Godswood is a symbolic place and I get the connection. But, as far as I get the symbolism, I don’t get the NEED to kill the Night King there. Why was that important to lure him there, and not to the crypts, where at least he could be alone/ with no dragon…. doesn’t it make much more sense in terms of logic? He was created with a Dragonglass, but somehow it is important to unmake him with a Valyrian steel dagger? Isn’t that a little bit a stretch? I know the dagger is kind of symbolic in the story. So what? How does it make this particular weapon so special? It was a PERFECT opportunity to use Bran’s visions or powers as an explanation for these things. Like, I don’t know: Children of the Forest talk with Benjen Stark after they stopped his curse by stabbing him with Dragonglass, explaining him how they did it. Anything could potentially be great.
You think people watching GoT are smarter than average viewer – I agree. But Godswood and Valyrian steel dagger, apart from symbolism, does not carry any special meaning for the story, not to mention it was a Dragonglass taht truly created him.
5. It is IMPORTANT to play out the story in advance. It’s crucial in order to make great twists and so on. But it’s also important to know, that giving Arya dagger in a previous season is not enough in order to call that foreshadowing. Manipulating with Melisandre’s prophecy neither (and by the way, it spoiled the episode for me… I knew it would be her right from that moment). What D&D basically did was: they decided it would be boring if Jon would kill the Night King. They realized it’d be great if Arya had anything to do this season. They also realized Arya was after the God of Death so it fits the story. They decided it wouldn’t be that obvious if that was Arya, not Jon who kills the Night King. Eventually, while writing the script, they realized that it’d be great to use the line from season 3 as some form of prophecy/foreshadowing, but to fit it, they need to change the order (even though, it’s almost 100%, that back then, in season 3 they had no idea that “blue eyes” would go for the White Walkers). And here we are: with Arya, a faceless trained assassin, with “well-established” motives and foreshadowing (like Bran giving her the Catspaw), fitting the theme of Death, killing the Night King – the most important character in Westeros. Just because it would be too obvious for Jon to do it. And… who cares it would be too obvious. From what I recall, I remember people visualizing the duel rhather than wondering who would that be, to kill the Night King. And yeah, just imagine. 1 vs 1 duel. Bran using dragon to distract Viserion. Few characters dying to the White Walkers. Eventually Arya going for the Night King, so he grabs her, she drops the dagger, and defeated, wounded Jon stabs him in the heart. A great, flaming sword – thanks to Melisandre, against the blade of Ice. With Sapochnik skills. Mother of God. That could be a great, intensive, 10-minutes long scene, with a few-minutes of uncut, raw material. With a proper explanation, that Bran can actually disrupt the Night King abilities and power, because of the GODSWOOD. And that Catspaw is a Valyrian steel dagger – made by DRAGONFIRE with a hilt made of DRAGONGLASS.
And a little detail – I actaully would prefer, if the Night King instead of bursting into ice cubes, would be unmade – and came back to the human form corpse. And so Drogon burned him, I don’t know, maybe even with the Godswood magical tree.
So many great storylines thay could have explored and interweaved in that plot, but they chose a cheap act of surprise. And don’t forget. Jon being a Targaryen meant nothing.
And please, don’t take me as some kind of fool that don’t understand the shit about the show. And that prophecies are just prophecies. I do get it 🙂 but if they chose to go Hollywood, they could at least make it satisfying. the plot armor of Brienne/ Sam/ Jaimie/ Pod/ Tormund/ the crypts people/ Dany and the Dragons is just unbearable. Dothraki that were meant to be decimated, actually had a spawn point in the King’s Landing. Unsullied, which Greyworm stuggled to sacrifice by closing the trenches, actually survived in great numbers (in tle last episode we are told that in thousands). Don’t forget that Dany had 8.000, when she landed in Westeros. Melisandre lived so many episode just to light up the Arakhs, light up trenches (which had no impact of the Army of the Dead, and to tell Arya she is the chosen one with a modified line from season 8 and call back one-liner from season one (“not today”). Beric lived up to this episode only to actually block the passage (which was cool) and help Arya (who is from this day the Chosen One), but after all, he manages to escape the dead, even though there are tens of them right on his back, and yet he gets to the room alone with no dead chasing him.
The level of inconsistencies, retcons, rushes in the story, and mistakes in character development had a great burden on that season. All we needed was TIME. That would justify a lot of things. Give it time to breathe. They had to fit so much in so little material, it was an impossible task – which kind of is an excuse for D&D, but they chose to make 6 episodes themselves, after being told by Martin and HBO no to do so.
Dany’s switch was a joke too. It gives the impression like they really, really… REALLLLY tried to get to that point, when something in the mind clicks and she goes full mad mode, but it wasn’t believable at all. I would prefer her, if she just went for the Red Keep – that would be justified 100%. But accidentally ignited the ctaches of Wild Fire, and destroyed the city thanks to the legacy HER FATHER left. That would be much more understandable. And killing Melisandre in that particular moment, when she looks at the Red Keep, would not only emilinate this retarded scene from episode 4, when Cersei could have ended it simply, as he is not an honorable person, but also give her even more reason to attack the Red Keep.
In the end, I don’t know how to feel about D & D. I give them all the credit in the world for the first 5.5 seasons, the people acting like these books adapted themselves and giving D & D no credit are morons. D & D did a brilliant job for most of the run and are supremely talented guys.
But the way they approached the final seasons just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They were selfish. Though D & D were a huge part of the success of GoT, there were three things in play and they all needed each other: D & D, HBO, and George’s story. They owed it to HBO, George and the fans to put their heart into the final seasons and let it take as long as it needed, even if it meant more episodes and years. And if they didn’t want to do that, they should’ve passed the show off to someone else. Instead they played both sides of the fence. They tried to finish it as quickly as possible but still wanted to sit in the director’s chair for the last episode and not put any other writers (Bryan) up for Emmy’s so they could keep them all for themselves. Their arc on this show is akin to Oberyn, they got way ahead of themselves and ended up getting their faces smashed in.
I don’t feel sympathy for them for having spent 10 years of their lives on the show. There are people who spend their whole lives cleaning toilets and working in coal mines. I appreciate the effort, but without those 10 years they wouldn’t be in the position they are in now, filthy rich with closets full of Emmys, able to make any movie or TV series they want. And while their talent and hard work played a huge role in it, it wouldn’t have been possible without George’s story or HBO. They certainly didn’t act like it though.
So in the end, I’m not really sure how I feel about D & D. They are a mixed bag to me.
Is it true Christie threatened to submit herself, that HBO did not want to? That was the rumour, just curious if there is any truth to it. How about Cogman having a falling out with D&D and HBO? I read that even though they passed on his spin-off pilot they offered him a lucrative development deal and he told them to piss off and signed with Amazon in a similar role, for less money than HBO was offering him, not even 5 days later.
I find it deeply unsettling how vehemently you are against Arya being the one to kill the Night King. Despite obvious foreshadowing, logic, and thematic connection, you still look for any and all possible ways to discredit it because you are so butt-hurt that Jon didn’t get the kill.
First of all, saying that 1 season is not enough for proper foreshadowing (in regards to the Catspaw dagger) is ridiculous. Of course it is. Ned’s death was foreshadowed, and it happened in the same season!
The eyes prophecy is a retcon, albeit a successful one, and so what if Mel changed the order of the eye colours. That’s your argument? It has been well-established that Mel can misinterpret prophecies and that she doesn’t always fully understand them at first. Obviously she doesn’t know at the time when she first meets Arya that the blue eyes means the Night King (at this point she’s still behind Stannis being the PtwP), but she puts it together by the time she arrives at the battle in 8×03, and that’s why they put the emphasis on the blue eyes. Nothing wrong with that.
Again, if you want specific examples of when George has done this in the books, watch the History of Westeros video on episode 8×03 (the Book to Show one I believe). Furthermore, In Deep Geek (another good GoT/ASoIaF resource) called it “good storytelling.”
As to your suggestion that Arya should have used her Faceless Men skills to infiltrate or assassinate someone important in KL, who is someone important in KL besides Cersei? And how does this work into her arc that was all about her reconnecting with her humanity, fully embracing her identity as Arya Stark, and letting go of her anger, darkness, and lust for vengeance? The face-swapping goes against all of that because it is a strong link to her identity as No One.
Look.. shortly after the episode aired, some people that intensely disliked that Arya got the kill came out and started calling her a Mary Sue. Articles and videos went up that had to explain what a Mary Sue actually is, and how completely ridiculous and deeply misogynistic it is to suggest that. Other articles pointed out how so much of the intense hatred for Arya getting the kill came from males. You just don’t see this kind of thing if their genders were swapped. And we see this with Dany.. with Sansa.. with Rey (Star Wars).. and others alike.
I just don’t understand what is so “horrible” about it. I really don’t! Jon is a saviour — multiple times over. He’s the whole reason they’re fighting the NK in the first place. He also gave Arya Needle and was a big part of encouraging her to become a fighter. He continued to support and encourage her when they reunited. He then saved everyone again when he killed Dany, making himself a Queenslayer & kinslayer in the process. What more do you want?
Enharmony1625,
I’m already bored to discuss it with you. You keep ignoring whatever I say and trying to distort my arguments.
You don’t look like someone who knows what foreshadowing means, so a little Wikipedia definition:
“Foreshadowing is a literary device in which a writer gives an advance hint of what is to come later in the story..”
First rule of a freaking foreshadowing – make it relevant. And now, although Arya’s story truly fits the theme of God of Death, it doesn’t necessary mean that Arya should be the one to kill the Night King. I do understand, that her character being a faceless assassin with months/years of training and a dagger that her prophetic brother gave her in advance, is enough for you – I just let you know, that it’s not enough for me.
And yes, I am butt-hurt, since that was one of the most disappointing plot twists in Game of Thrones.
The eye prophecy is a retcon, albeit successful one?
then you clearly have no idea how to write a proper story, sorry man/madam, I don’t want to be rude, but it’s horrible what you say. The whole idea of a prophecy/foreshadowing is that it’s been set there for a reason – not to be retconned in the future just to fit a particular bit of story.
Then, you give me arguments from authority: In Deep Geek – and… why should I care what others say? I do say it was wrong. By the way, a great moment to insert Bertrand Russell’s quote “have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found“. I say it for a reason – there are dozens of critics/ youtube channels that criticized this particular scene. So, why shoudn’t I agree with them? Lol.
Well, now about the King’s Landing stuff… and why would she inflitrate the city, tell Jon about the strategy, get with the Hound into the city, and have the scene from episode 5 repeated? Like, are you serious with what you are talking about? And after all, why should the ending include her reconnecting with humanity etc.?
I have a strong feeling, that you are one of those people, who look at the scene, watch the episode, and have a hard time to imagine a different course of events. Why shouldn’t she die? Maybe that would be satisfying too – if she reconnected with humanity by giving her life for family? Like, there are thousands of possibilities, but it seems like you have accepted only the one you got. Why should she go to the west of Westeros? Because it was “foreshadowed” in the 6th season? Honestly, before the season premiered, I was convinced, that Arya won’t survive this season. And I really enjoyed that thought.
About the Mary Sue – yes, for me it’s definitely exaggerated. So why should I care what people said? It’s true, Arya thematically suited her role, yet I disliked it for the reason I already presented for a thousand times. But I will repeat the most important one: just because you can freely connect a few dots since the season 1, it doesn’t mean Arya was destined to kill the Night King from the moment the first dot appears. In other words: foreshadowing is a tool used by writers to hint the action in advance, once THEY DECIDED IT TO HAPPEN. The peopbably didn’t even know, if they create the character of the Night King. So recalling season 1, as a foreshadowing of Arya’s heroism is a joke and misunderstanding the very idea of foreshadowing. And retconning is truly recognized as the worst tool to create the story, since instead of having an effort to create a proper hint, you just change the line and it’s done! The pophecy is real!
So, you emphasize that prophecies are just prohecies, and they do not matter, but when it comes to retocinning one, you fully accept it as a proper tool to make Arya a justified choice for the Night King’s killer. Wow. How convinient.
“He then saved everyone again when he killed Dany, making himself a Queenslayer & kinslayer in the process. What more do you want?”
What do I want? Fulfilling, deep, engaging story – thet is consistent throught the whole series, have no holes (at least the most obvious ones), that uses no plot armor for the main character to survive – but good script and problem-solving instead; that uses no deus ex machina like the last two season constantly do; that provide a proper psychological structure and relevant development for each character. That provide as much realism as it’s only possible, not forgetting that action takes place in medival fantasy world.
So, Dany loses her loyal advisor. We get a glimpse of common people giving her a discouraging sight. She has her best friend beheaded. She lost her dragon with 3-consecutive shots from scorpions that attached to the boats that are moving super-fast, and yet she dodges over 100 shots in both 4th and 5th episode, while flying on Drogon’s back – well, because nor her, neither the dragon can die. She also feels betrayed by her lover, that appears to be freaking retarded with telling the truth for, like no reason (ah, yes, he is loyal just like he’s father – who actually is not his father)? And then, also betrayed by the Master Mind to the season 5, who goes open rebellion against Dany, instead of working like he used to do – in the shadows. And yet, Varys is another victim of a bad writing – he HAD to be the plot device to move Dany to madness… because writers had no better idea to move her into that state.
To sum up, yeah, it’s quite a lot in 4 episodes happening to Daenerys. But it also crosses out her entire development through 6 seasons. And let me remind you, that she did EVERYTHING to free the slaves. To defeat the masters. So… why no to burn all these people? Okay, they are Lannisters? – nope, they are innoncent people she cared once for, emm, for like 6 seasons? She gave freedom to so many slaves, she killed the masters, she killed the harpies, she freed Dothraki (gave them free will), she freed Unsullied. And yet, when she can go purely for the Red Keep (which is absolutely justified), she decides to kill the people she had no reason to kill. If you really call it good writing, then, well wow, impressive.
So yeah, Jon is a saviour who killed the “Mad Queen”. Even though she is responsible for the death of those innocents – he was told not to trust Daenerys. He was told not to tell his family. I don’t know. Don’t you see it’s clearly dumb that Sansa tells tyrion right the next scene that Jon is the true heir? I know she has a purpose to fulfill, but damn God, that’s simply annoying to watch this bullshit.
And if you believe the realism to the maximum extent, then you should also accept Tyrion dying from the stroke, Bran dying from the pneumonia he got during his journey to the North, and Jaimie dying from falling off the horse. But that would be dumb, right? On the other hand, we can accept retconning, forced dot-connecting of some foreshadowing from season 1, and surpirse value over the good writing.
And to sum up – maybe I would even like Arya killing the Night King, if they gave it much more reason, somewhat of personal vendetta. More of Bran and Arya conversation. More clues hidden in smart dialogs. More explanation of why it is Catspaw that is destined to be the weapon that kills the Night King.
I rewatched the first 2 seasons. In first season, there is a scene, where they caught Tywin’s “soldier”, and they bring him to the tent, where Robb discusses his battle plans with other generals. And what does Theon do? Covers the map, so that the Lannister soldier can’t see it. What a little, genius act, that brings it to a whole different level. And in season 8, the dialogs that are considered genius are the ones, that include the most amount of call-back to previous seasons: “the things we do for love”; “the jackass and the honeycomb”; “love is the death of duty”… blah, blah, blah. There are little, to no meaningful dialogs that would push the story further. It’s filled with inconsitencies like Tormund saying that only a king or a madman can mount the dragon, even though he did it in season 7.
Jon: “we can’t defeat them in a straight fight” – episode 2.
*Dothraki charges* – episode 3
*Unsullied in front of the trenches* – episode 3
*Every meaningful character in the first rank* – episode 3
Yeah, i despise this season for butchering the story, even D&D themselves (at least sometimes), created. It seems like finishing such extensive, elaborate and creative story was way too hard task for these 2.
The very first problem was of a logistical nature – they couldn’t fit it in 7&6 episodes. From that point, it all started to lose sense. And yet they tried. And so they failed. Over.
Enharmony1625,
Arya killing the Night King could have been a great idea, but: 1) Arya should have paid some price for her skills and luck; 2) Jon should have been another way to fulfill the prophecy of the PTWP in terms of becoming the King of the Seven Kingdoms; 3) Arya killing the Night King should have been used for Jon’s character development. After all, it put Jon and Dany on equal grounds: both of them turned to be wrong about what they were born to. It was a perfect setup for their reconciliation and finding a new goal together. And the last episodes of the series should have focused on the issue of Cersei and her unborn child: again there was such a great setup to answer the ethernal question, whether the happiness of all mankind is worth a sacrifice of a single child. And if they wanted a threat of fire, they should have used the Red Priests, instead of Dany breaking bad. The Red Priests have already been established as contraversial players who can resurrect the goodies but who also burn children at stake and seek to purify non-believers with fire.
Instead, the writers (including GRRM) decided to take the path of boring deconstructivism by building Dany as a hero and then revealing her as a villain in disguise. Sure, some 20-25 years ago deconstructivism was trending: you couldn’t get a grant for a historical study without a promise to deconstruct some hero. But things have changed since then: at least in the field of historical science, deconstructivism is already out of date and out of fashion.
Adam,
You are way too hung up on the fact that the eyes prophecy is a retcon. If we didn’t know it was a retcon, and assumed they planned it that way from the start, it works perfectly. And that’s all that should matter! Foreshadowing does not absolutely require that the writer(s) intended it from the beginning. If, as it is in this case, they discover it later on and sees that it fits, then that’s totally valid. Again, George has done this in the books.
I’m not interested in discussing an entirely different story/character outcome. This is just about her killing the NK and how that works into the story we have in front of us.
Uh.. I never said that. Ever.
Inga,
1) Why? Why on earth did she need to pay a price for the skills she learned? If you mean serving the FM, then I would argue she already has. She spent (what can be assumed to be at least a couple of months or more) blind, and almost got killed by the Waif. Beyond that, I don’t think she needed to pay any more of a price. Besides, she has suffered tremendously throughout the series, and weren’t you one of the ones accusing the story of being nihilistic already? This doesn’t really help that cause.
2) No.
3) Also no. Because Jon is not the only hero in this story. This is a multiple PoV, multiple protagonist story, of which Arya is a very prominent and important part of, with her own story arc that is not in service of any others.
Adam,
Well it is already stated by D&D, Isaac and others working on the show that Bran telling Jon the truth is the reason Dany went overboard. Without it Dany wouldn’t have landed where she was. If Jon didn’t know the truth, so didn’t Dany, so didn’t Sansa, so didn’t Tyrion, so didn’t Varys. So did Dany’s paranoia about Jon taking her throne, it wouldn’t have exist without the truth bomb, if Sam hadn’t tell Jon, Dany would have sit on the throne in the end as a peaceful ruler, maybe she would have snapped years later, but not that fast. She wouldn’t have had that paranoia of Jon betrayed me. She also would have listen to Sansa more to wait to go south because there was no need to show she was the true queen.
and Bran clearly stated: It has to be told now, before the NK attacks. (don’t remember his exact words but it was that it needed to be told before the NK attacks not after)
And even Isaac said that everything Bran did in season 7 and 8 was so that everything was in place for the ending. Meaning that D&D clearly stated that to Bran or in the scripts. (I expect it was in the scripts). So maybe it didn’t transfer to all the fans, it did to me. But Isaac seems to confirm that it was suppose to be Bran’s plan.
And for Theon, that was more my feeling I had (which later on confirmed for me when Isaac said his words about the role of Bran in season 8 and how Bran reacted in 8×06). Just before Theon dies Bran looks a certain why past Theon, not at Theon but past. He stated “You’re a good guy Theon” so that Theon would indeed charge at the NK. Why would he let Theon do that if he knew Theon would certainly die? I mean he could have said, Theon flee, save yourself but he didn’t. It all make sense that Bran did it to give Arya time to pass unnoticed. I’m not saying it was that, but that was my feeling when I watch that scene, I though that I didn’t understand why Bran would let Theon sacrifice himself if it wouldn’t madder. the only thing that sacrifice brought was time, time for what? What had Bran up his sleeve.
As for the dots, yes for me it wasn’t needed more. Would I have liked more, yes I wouldn’t mind. But for me it wasn’t needed, I could sense it since 8×01 that Bran had an agenda, I always felt (because I though that Dany would end the villain in the end since season 3), that Bran would push her there, he made Sam do it. So I though what is his reason for destroying Dany. We all though he wanted Jon on the throne, until episode 6. And for me it made sense.
As for Jon’s legacy, in the books it will not made a more difference either. So that would be a fault book and show both. For me this is more excited, his legacy was the reason the first step of democracy is being made, which for me is a bigger change of history then he become king.
I Agree with Cersei, Cersei seems only to be in season 8 for Dany’s sake. She is very non excising. I always had hoped since 8×01 that we would see a wedding in 8×04 between her and Euron and have a old vibe of the show back. I mean show us the wedding and her wedding present is Missandei.
I think the books would be more excited that way, my feeling is still Griff will win against Cersei in winds, probably Cersei escaped to Casterly Rock, meaning that’s how the books will show us CR. And I think book 7 is more interesting seeing the hero of book 1 till 6 becoming the villain by dethroning a peaceful king, which we read is happening. The people are happy we want Griff to stay. adding another layer. In the show we want Cersei gone. Which felt to mainstream in the end. Having the Hero becoming villain by going against a just king is more interesting.
ps. I didn’t mean people wanting everything to show that they are dumb, I just meant for me if the dots are there I can connect them myself. But more because I will watch shows like GoT over and over again, and seeing new things being revealed every time. It’s something I like, mystery after it’s end. Same with lost, there was a hanging question that was not directly revealed on screen: why do pregnant woman die. I watch the show over and over again. I looked on internet what some natural things happening on the show like magnetism does in real life and connected it and I had my answer. It’s something I like.
Adam,
Thank you the same to you:
1. Well I wouldn’t have mind if she would have helped Jaime killing Euron. Would have been nice if she would have left the castle the way he enters and save Jaime. Which would added a layer when she let Jaime go to save Cersei. And maybe in the books she will take down grey worm, I mean Grey worm is more important in the show to survive, not so in the books. And I think the books will go further into the Arya death theme in braavos, which make more sense if she helped killing the WW.
2. I never said it was Arya that is the princes that is promised. Even in the show that’s not what happened. Yes she did the last blow, but she was not the one that made it possible. yes she could have been if the prince that was promised was a name for a group of people, meaning Jon Dany Arya Bran Jorah etc. But if one was to be named I say: Dany if it’s about the WW treat. And Jon if it was about Dany. We don’t know what the books does with the prohecies, but I don’t expect it to be Jon in the books either if it was about the WW. And I don’t think the books will take a direct meaning of the prophecy like we all think. I think it’s meant to be taken figuratively. As for Mel stating that sentence again, yes it’s retcon but still that happens a lot in movies without us even knowing. Even lotr did it, which had it easier because it didn’t rely on mystery and forshadowing and was more straightforward.
3. About Jon, he still is the mayor character, and the main character. Who is king is not what main is in George’s books. I mean look at Stannis, everything was being told through the eyes of Davos. Same with Robb he wasn’t a main character because he became king. The show still ended with Jon with the last scene. Dany is second in my book and it was logical she was in the end. And a big epic duel with the NK couldn’t happen because we had hardhome, yes it was awesome but it also made sure that storywise the WW would retreat to much, because they sensed that men and jon had weapons against them. And we did have some kind of stand-off between the two. It was on dragonsback. And later on we had a small stand-off between him, dany and the NK where the NK shows to be victorious by surviving Dany’s attack and raising the death. And I think the prophecies are the same in the books, when it comes, how important are they. I don’t expect the books to go into a huge fight with Jon and a WW. I think that’s also a huge reason why people are let down because they expect huge things they missed in the show to be in the books, I think they will not be there, the books dismiss many times battle parts and or go after them (Taking mereen) or looking at it from somebody looking at it instead of fighting it.
4. Valyrian steel is made from dragonglass. Dragonglass is the Iron ore and valyrian steel is Iron. It’s the same only one is how you find it in nature and the other is when it’s being used by a smith (to put simple). So it’s just dragonglass against dragonglass shard. And what I meant was that I think if you watch the show couple of times that would have been made clear.
5. I have to agree that I agree with you about knowing it would be Arya 30 minutes before it happen. Which for me they should have gone with that scene closer to the end or 2 let that story be shown a bit through arya’s eyes (which maybe was in the scripts but changed by the director because of reasons artistic or budgetary reasons). And I don’t agree that jon should be the one, Jon had Dany. Arya had the NK. After seeing season 8 I really want Arya to be the one. But maybe change what you said and have Jon almost die, but made the opportunity for Arya to take the NK when he was going after Jon. And agree half with unmade the NK but I wonder if it’s a process that could made him human again. I mean the other WW got an almost same treatment and they all shattered. And I think a 10 minute battle would have cost a shit tone of money, and it needed to be 2 weeks more filming. I would have cost 30 million more give a take. It could not have been done.
6. I agree that the crypts should have been more excited, which I expected, Arya gave Sansa a knife. I still think that it was filmed, but cut because HBO wanted 80 minute episodes. I still am not over that 80 minute for episode 3 till 6. It’s too close for 3 different directors with 3 different filming style, which all take their time what is needed for every scene. I still think a huge amount of filmed scenes were cut.
7. You can see a lot of Dothraki surviving in episode 3 when Jorah fled back. I think 60/70 died rest survived. Still I agree that it felt to much combining 4 5 and 6. Same with Unsullied, you can see unsullied later in episode 3 alive and well fighting in the courtyard.
8. I think Mellisandre send those dothraki to their dead on purpose. To lure the NK into the open to be killed. Is my feeling. And that lighting of the trenches gave at least a short time to flee back into the castle walls. Agree with Beric for me he was not that excited to survive this long.
9. More time true, I still think 2 more episodes was enough for the whole season. It needed some small scenes more, nothing more. Episode 1 and 2 and 3 were great with the scenes we got. especially 2. Lot’s of human interaction. I wonder if the new contracts of the main cast was one reason to go less episode route. I mean 1 million per episode per person is a lot. The big cast take almost half the budget. maybe if they had more episodes they had less money to give the crew and the story would have been worse.
About HBO: Don’t take that as a “it needed more seasons”. HBO want to cash out everything they can with GoT, they wouldn’t mind if it was milked to the end with 20 seasons, as long as it made them a lot of money. They don’t know anything about what was needed for the story. And they didn’t force D&D which ABC did with lost for instance. So that means that even they knew D&D were right.
about George: Yes george would have loved 12 seasons so he could finish his books first. Had nothing to do with it needed that much. Still I would have loved if season 5 and 6 would have been 3 season, including more dorne, Iron island and Griff to the show.
10. I still wonder why people think it was a switch at that moment. When she even stated before the people of KL were guilty of keeping Cersei on the throne. The people of KL were her enemies in her mind long before she sets into battle, they had chosen Cersei, they didn’t took their freedom like the people of Mereen. And what do people think she meant with that she will give the people fear. When talking to Jon. She decided to burn people alive right there already. Not later in the episode, it was there already. Yes Tyrion tried to reason with her with his bell plan, which she took and hoped the people would choose her with that plan, but no, they did not. They still feared her, the felt Cersei was safer for them, she was right, the people of KL were her enemies, collaborators with Cersei, but maybe I should keep the peace like tyrion said. But they keep Cersei in my families house, I need to wait for them so she could stay in my families house, but it’s my families house and the people are guilty to keep me from it. fire and blood it is.
I agree with you they could have done this better. But not in the way you described, I think they shouldn’t have gone with the feeling that Dany was going to safe KL first. I think if we got a scene right before battle with her and Grey worm where we sense she and Grey worm weren’t going to keep to Tyrion’s plan. Which I think would have been better if we could feel it was all in the plan and ready to happen. And let her say words like: Why shouldn’t I burn the whole city to the ground, they keep Cersei in place. Not just those 10.000 people. I think George will go more the route of we already sense it is going to happen half a book before it happen. I still think the books will go with the sense from the first Dany/Jon or Jon con chapter that Dany will be bad for the throne and going the villain route. It will not be a shocktwist like the show.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
D&D owed George? really? didn’t George not owe D&D to finish his book first? Or his fans. They gave D&D a job to adapt and later he is, no sorry guys the books are not done, tell the story that is fully fleshed out in my mind and hope you can mindread me. He didn’t even gave D&D the pages he already written to help them on their way. It’s one thing to adapt somebodies book and another to finish their story with your own inputs. Same thing the other way. George would have failed finishing a story that D&D would have think of first.
And as for Bryan: Why would they let Bryan get an Emmy if they D&D wrote half of episode 8×02? They needed to change a lot in that episode. The greatness of 8×02 was more to thank of Weiss then Cogman.
orange,
I think those rumors are just rumors. And don’t forget there is tons of fake news in the making. There’s even a fake video going around where kit is saying in an interview that the writing of season 8 is bad, and they pulled a lost, and D&D should be fined etc. All done with special software on computers.
And maybe it’s true, but as long as nobody is speaking out loud don’t believe anything. There’s some nasty business lately with fake news. And I read a lot of things about season 8 that’s just twisting the truth.
and about cogman maybe it’s about that D&D need to edit his episodes a lot that HBO didn’t have any faith in him?
Almost a year ago, I said that Emmys 2019 will be the “Game of Thrones” swan song. And in order to fail, they would have to make a disaster of Chernobyl proportions. Well, they did it.
We can be fans, and we can be honest. Yes, the music was outstanding (as it has always been), the actors were great too (when they had something to do), but simply, it was a fail. Last year, we have seen the Emmy for Best Writing going to the finale of “The Americans” – one of the most beautifully written episodes in recent memory. Following that with one of the worst finales would actually be hilarious, even for TV Academy.
Then, we have Emilia. She is such a sweet person, but Sandra Oh has been a powerhouse in “Killing Eve”. Jodie Comer is also submitting for Lead (yay!!!) and the likes of Julia Roberts and Laura Linney are expected to get nominated. Personally, I would also like to see Christine Baranski getting the recognition she so richly deserves. Emilia… Well, she has been amazing, but simply, her performance was buried with that script.
I would not be too surprised to see Kit missing the nomination. Even if he gets nominated, the competition he faces is also quite strong. Bob Odenkirk and Richard Madden (“King in the North!!!”) are frontrunners, and rightfully so. I haven’t seen “Pose” so can’t really comment on Billy Porter.
As for Supporting Actor, Dinklage seems to have this in his bag. Personally, I think that Dinklage lost its mojo somewhere in Season 5, but they keep awarding him. I would choose Jonathan Banks before him this year, but I doubt that will happen.
The one more stacked is Supporting Actress, with Headey, Williams and Turner being all in Top 5/6. This category is wasteland this year (THT is not even nominating Yvonne Strahovski for Season 2 finale) . This was supposed to be Headey’s year, but I am afraid that the fact she did nothing entire season, plus the fact that Turner and Willaims are not just fillers, but actual contenders may lead to vote splitting. That’s how Thandie Newton (Bless her!!!) won last year. I want to see Headey win, just so Cersei wouldn’t go unrecognized. That said, I have seen several other supporting performances that are better this year. (Audra MacDonald in “The Good Fight” being the one I would root)
All in all, I never thought we would have this debate. I thought that they would have no problems with Emmys this year. Boy, was I wrong…
LatrineDiggerBrian,
You’re absolutely right. D&D did owe Martin and HBO a great deal, but seeing as they’ve put Martin’s books on the map and made him filthy rich and created the most successful show in the history of HBO, earning them millions of subscribers, I’d say they are paid in full.
D&D did give season 8 their best effort. You not liking it doesn’t change that. They spent an extra year so they could get season 8 just right, so you’re clearly wrong about them rushing through it. They planned on giving GOT 70 episodes from the beginning, so they actually ended up giving us three extra. You may not have liked the end result, but you can’t say that they didn’t put their heart and soul into it, because that is objectively false.
Enharmony1625,
And when it comes to the order in which the eyes are told. Well Yesterday before I put my meal on the table I said: We have chicken with steamed potatoes with brocolli, but strangely when somebody asked today what I ate I said steamed potatoes with brocolli and chicken. Somehow the chicken went from first to last. Strange that I remember that differently today.
Adam,
But still Arya had more foreshadowing than Jon had with ending the WW. As you stated all above what was forshadowed for Arya. Jon was only that he was at the wall close to the WW treat. Hardhome wasn’t even with Jon in the books. Sam killed more WW then Jon in the books, does that mean Sam should have killed the NK? I still wouldn’t have a problem with Jon being the one to end the NK, if that happened it would be ok, the NK needed to go that’s all that matters. Storywise it make more sense for Arya to do it. Especially in the show where the NK protects himself from jon who he witness killing one of his WW before his eyes. And still Jon had part 1 of the NK battle in 8×03. Even more spectacular, on dragonsback. Dany got her shot also. Dany/Jon and Arya both pushed the NK to his death.
As for Dany. For me I always though of Dany as the ultimate villain. Her eyes when Viserys died scared me. And I always condemned her for burning mirri maaz dur. That was pure evil and hypocritical of her. Feeling selfrighteous because that woman killed your husband, but that woman was wrong from taking revenge for her family friends, children of her city being raped, killed and taken to be slaves. And the way she talked before the burning was somebody feeling the gods send her to do that job. Yes she saved slaves. But as stated in the books was fueled with her own past, she was sold as a slave, it was personal. And as GRRM told a lot of heroes did horrible things and lot of villains did heroic deeds. Look up those interviews with him, he told the audience something. (and I felt he was talking about Dany in a sense)
Mladen,
It’s your opinion that the finale was bad, but for me, it was better than The Americans. That’s not to say it was bad, it was simply lacking in some areas. Besides, nothing The Americans has done can compete with Tyrion discovering Jaime and Cersei, Dany’s victory speech, both Tyrion/Jon scenes, Dany’s death, the dragon pit, the Stark farewell, and the ending montage.
I do agree that the Emmys will be tough this year when they should have had it in the bag, but I don’t put that on them. They remained true to their story and ended it in true GOT fashion. They didn’t betray the spirit of their story by giving it the fan service ending people were apparently expecting.
Young Dragon,
Although the sales of ASOIAF exploded after 2011, Martin was already established author in the world of fantasy. His books were on the map, whether you have seen them or not.
Were D&D lazy in their writing for Season 8? Absolutely yes. HBO, Martin, they all knew they need more episodes. That 6 was simply not enough for all the story they had to cover. They made a choice and it proved to be the wrong one. They had willing studio, collaborative writer, loyal fanbase, incredibly talented cast and crew and what they made was simply bad. Oh, yes, we can entertain ourselves with “that is just your opinion” or “people were irrational”. But many people, both professionals and regular viewers have a lot to say about Season 8. Rare are those who opted to speak nicely.
They worked hard. But the writing was simply lazy. They should have done much better job there. Were they eyeing new project or were they tired of GoT? None of us can say with certainty.
Inga,
Here is already the problem: you are not talking about HOW it happened, but what happened. You stated that Jon should be king, and dany should have become (yes become because she had always villainous treats in the past, even her action with burning mirri maaz dur was pure evil) the hero of the story. The criticism is again the what happened, not how. So it has nothing to with bad writing but with what happened that people didn’t like, and you made the point what the people who liked the season tried to make: It was not how it happened but what that most people had a problem with.
There’s nothing wrong with Dany being the villain and it make a lot of sense, there’s nothing wrong with Bran being king instead of Jon, a closer step to democracy is in fact a bigger result of Jon’s past. So in a sense jon made that possible (and Dany also in a strange brutal way).
Mladen,
Martin wanted more episodes because he wanted more time to finish his books before the show spoiled his ending. HBO wanted more episodes because money. Neither of them are very reliable sources of what the story needed. D&D knew from the beginning that the story needed 70 episodes, and they were absolutely right. Would I have liked more episodes? Of course. More GOT is never a bad thing. Did the story require more episodes? Of course not. They ended the final season in a very satisfying way without taking any shortcuts. I also disagree about the writing being lazy. Season 8 had some of the best written scenes in the entire series.
Enharmony1625,
1. She already paid the prince for everything. After all that happened, she can’t live happily with a good man in a castle. After all she can only be happy if she sail away to another adventure, meaning she can never really have quiet peace.
Young Dragon,
I agree with you fully. Personally I liked the Americans ending a lot. Was totally brilliant for that show. Beautiful written. Which ending I liked more I don’t know (Yet), I think both were true to the story as you said, but both were great and had their moments. It’s possible Americans ending win for me, but still GoT is for me the winner of this year with it’s ending.
But still both GoT and americans ending felt short compared to the best ending ever put to screen: Six feet Under.
Mladen,
Well again:
HBO wanted more money, so more episodes. Nothing to do with the story, HBO even stated they are in the dark where the story is needed, but if D&D stated this is what they need that’s what the story needs.
George wants 30 seasons so he could finish the books before the show, nothing to do with “it needs so many seasons”. He stated that book 4 and 5 could have given us 4 or 5 seasons. Which also made clear George thinking of finishing the books first. Yes those 2 books could have had half a season maybe one full season more. But 4 times the amount of seasons? No way.
Young Dragon,
Even Peter Dinklage stated in an interview before season 8 that it’s good that it ends here because more than 8 seasons and 6 episodes could have been told.
That coming from a very professional actor which had a lot of jobs lately. And his interviews are always very objective, never negative or positive about the show, just stating facts.
kevin1989,
Oh yes, The Americans had a great finale, I just liked GOT’s better. I remember you saying how great the ending of Six Feet Under was. That show is on my To Watch list but I haven’t gotten around to it yet, so my current favorite finale is still The Shield.
Direcat,
I also thought her bitchiness to Dany was inexplicable.
As Jaime himself stated, he was acting in the interests of his family. As Brienne made clear, much later on he violated those same interests by sending Brienne away from KL with the express purpose of finding and protecting the Stark sisters—to fulfill her vow to Cat. Sansa certainly didn’t appreciate it when Arya judged her for the shitty choices she’d made in KL. Why should Sansa keep judging Jaime for the shitty choices he’d made as a Lannister, in the same somewhat distant past? It just seemed vindictive, petty, and unbecoming of a young woman who was taught that “a lady’s courtesy is her armor.”
Oh, wait. I almost forgot. There was also that part where he left his murderous sister behind and crossed most of the known continent alone to fight for the living, knowing full well he might be put to the sword upon arrival at Winterfell.
Yeah, petty, vindictive, and unbecoming of a lady… much less a future queen.
It was also pretty fucking mean to antagonize him right in front of Brienne, who was obviously with Jaime at that point and had done nothing but serve her faithfully 537 times. Urgh.
Negatory.
Dragonglass is obsidian. Obsidian is felsic lava. It is NOT iron.
Pigeon,
Yes!!!
Adam,
Wow, never seen do many forced arguments for Arya being foreshadowed. Yeah, I know it’s been foreshadowed since season 7. Well, that’s the most they could do when they retconned the plot. That’s exactly what I would do, if i came up with such a horrible idea to Arya be the Night King killer.
But, damn. You admit that it’s not that long, when they decided it’s Arya to be the killer – yet, you bring up some random line of a Catspaw Bran’s assasin, who uses “No one” in his sentence as a proof of foreshadowing. I don’t want to be rude, but that’s clearly insane…
I’m not really sure, if you understand the role and structure of proper foreshadowing.
You misread me. I never said it was “proof of foreshadowing”? Because the Night King’s killer was always going to be either her or Jon, I cited events and coincidences (the “forced arguments”?) from early episodes that showed Arya to to be a proper candidate for that honour. And of course I adduced the Faceless Men connection–also before the decision–since she may well have been chosen by the Many FAced God. I wrote “…anyone who reflected on Arya’s history would have understood why choosing her was justified. Thanks to their 3-year lead-time, they set up foreshadowing and preparation.” So you see, I explicitly reserved “foreshadowing” for things D&D did only AFTER they decided she’d kill the NK. Jon was always the likelier candidate, but his choice was never a foregone conclusion.
From Season 7 they subtly prepared us for Arya’s feat. I gave examples of post-decision foreshadowing, including hints in the sparring and most directly, the Dagger. Since she had little to do with the Night King (but everything to do with protecting Bran!), few fans noticed (including me). Until Melisandre, newly back from her refresher course at the Volantis Temple, realised what the eye prophecy (which I admitted was retrofitted) actually meant and used it to signal Arya. I do think that the Lord of Light explanation makes sense. After all, we oftentimes heard that the LoL was keeping someone alive for a purpose, especially Beric and Sandor. Both of whom had played consequential roles in Arya’s narrative in Seasons 3 and 4.
I trust you no longer think me ‘insane’ or ingenuous about the use of foreshadowing. Finally, you said in a later post:
“… maybe I would even like Arya killing the Night King, if they gave it much more reason, somewhat of personal vendetta. More of Bran and Arya conversation. More clues hidden in smart dialogs. More explanation of why it is Catspaw that is destined to be the weapon that kills the Night King.”
I do believe her defending Bran’s life is the reason. Of course, there should have been more evidence. Sadly, there’s a paucity of smart dialogue in Season 8. But Arya had declared she was defending the family. She always has been. And in the war council she told Bran “We’re not leaving you alone out there.” Once Theon died–she did ensure he was not alone.
As to the Dagger–it seems to have a destiny of its own. It had been passed around since 1.02. Every Stark but Rickon has held it. It is a historical Targaryen weapon (the book Sam read in 7.01) and may have belonged to Rhaegar. In the books it was Robert;s, and considering it shows up in 7.04 “Spoils of War”, he may have taken it as a spoil from Rhaegar. Its components include dragonglass, dragonbone, Valyrian steel, possibly sapphires and a Ruby. Rubies seem to have power. It had started a war and would end a war. Bran told Arya it was meant to kill him, which implies it can kill the Night King. He knew her background and gave it her with an portentous look. And…she is the Dark Sister of Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar. Isaac said Bran knew it was intended for her, though he may not have known why. In any case, along with Needle, Ice, and Longclaw, this Dagger is an iconic and, perhaps uniquely, potent weapon.
kevin1989,
Dear Kevin, with respect, but your ignorance is just unbelievable. The endgame of the sow is not a democracy: it’s an oligarchy. And it’s the worst possible outcome (read Plato, if you don’t trust me). Moreover, it’s regression rather than progress. Primogeniture-based hereditary monarchies developed out of oligarchies with elected kings; a good half of European countries never even reached this phase and ended in disarray: look at the history of the Holy Roman Empire or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or Hungary or the whole bunch os medieval republics from Venice to Great Novgorod. The problem with oligarchies is that they are very susceptible to external influences: any external power can easily bribe one or two lords/oligarchs and put their candidate on the throne and even without that oligarchs tend to promote personal interests instead of common/national ones. You see, democracy works only when the electoral basis is broad enough to mitigate personal interests. Besides that, it demands consensus over what the national interest actually is: in other words, democracy needs a nation bound by the shared experience of defeats and victories which could lead to such consensus. And it needs strong leadership to defend such a consensus against the personal interests of individual players, otherwise, democracy turns into a stagnant swamp. And the stagnant swamp wast exactly what we saw at the Dragonpit council: the lords laugh at Sam’s idea to extend the electoral basis and they elected the weakest person they could find. It reminds me of the first Conclave of 1316 which elected Pope John XXII because he was the oldest and everyone thought he would die in a month (he didn’t but the Catholic Church as an institution ended up in the Captivity of Avignon and century-long disarray). And there are plenty of other real-history precedents proving that Westeros is doomed under Bran’s rule: the Night’s Watch deprived of its raison d’etre alone is a ticking bomb. In short, it is the sum of all fears: week central government, six kingdoms with nothing to unite them + one seceded, and a monastic military order with nothing to do. Sure, I’m not happy with WHAT has happened: it’s an insult to every lesson history has ever given to us.
Young Dragon,
The Shield had also a very amazing ending.
Wolfish,
Or maybe a good lady that make sure she let her people (the northerners know) that Jaime Lannister the one that rose up against her family and bannerman, will get the trial he deserve for it. And of course come free of it in the end. And people tend to forget that part that after Brienne vouche for her, Sansa trust Jaime. It’s a very logical reaction Sansa had, but she changed her mind very quickly. Different from Dany who kept judgement for years about a story her brother told her. Even when Baristan said her father was evil. Even when she forgive Ned for his part in the war last year to Jon. And still she judged him until the end in episode 5.
I never said it was Iron. I made a comparison. You made Iron from Iron ore. And you made Valyrian steel with Dragonglass. One is the weapon the other the natural resourced that was needed to made that weapon.
So I don’t know where you come from that I said Valyrian steel was Iron. It was very clear that I meant that as a metaphor and not taken literal as dragonglass = iron ore and VS = Iron.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
It’s the same with LotR, the whole 3 movies we were prepared for Frodo to destroy the ring. In the end it was Smeagol that did it. Did we had complains there that Frodo din’t do it? No, because it made sense how it happened in the end. Same with here, we expected it to be Jon because Jon’s storyline was about the WW the whole time, but in the end it was his sister that prepared to defeat dead for a couple of seasons.
Inga,
And here is the problem that has occur, you call me ignorant for not knowing that a chosen King is bad, and history told that. Yes I know that, it’s not democracy. You also stated multiple times in history that Monarchy went to a chosen king. That means that it happened in history. that means that in fact GoT history is true to realism. There has never been a country in history that went from full-monarchy to full-democracy in one go. So you state that it’s bad because a chosen king is not good in the end. I said it’s good because history taught us that we never go from full-monarchy to full-democracy in one go.
Same with my country, that is one of the most democratic parliaments there is in this world. It was also one of the first countries in Europa that put democracy back in place. But even we didn’t go from full monarchy to full democracy. Even here there was a time when only officials could vote. The people come much later.
kevin1989,
Dear Kevin, oligarchy doesn’t evolve towards democracy: it evolves towards autocracy and usually towards a tyranic one.
kevin1989,
Oh no, of that I agree. I also felt like it’s a good way to end her character arc. And yeah, it’s pretty predictible too, but who cares. Quite a strong metaphor of legacy and blood having that heavy burden on your life.
It’s also pretty damn cool, that they brought the idea of breaking the wheel so many times, but in the end, she did nothing to break it, yet she only replaced the person who rolls it.
What I mean by Dany, is that everything that happened to her in season 7 and 8 must have had a great impact on her mind. But I don’t really think it’s believable to bring it the the moment when she decides to burn the city to the crisp. I can follow every shit that happened to her and brought her to that moment. Unfortunately, as a viewer, it was pretty hard to follow her mind. We got a few “bad” lines, and a few “bad” faces. I’m not sure it’s how the development works. Especially, that Daenerys in season 8 is the BIGGEST mindset switch that happened in Game of Thrones, and yet, the FASTEST. So, as far as I do like the idea of her dying in the end, and not being able to sit on the throne she always dreamt of, I don’t like the approach of the screenwriters.
When it comes to Arya, nope. Not sure if anything will change my mind on that matter. I simply prefered strongly Jon over Arya. I think that particular duel between the Night King and Jon was crucial for the story – at least to me. Imagine, that Frodo broke his leg while climbing the mountain and it’s Sam that throws the ring for him into the fires of Mount Doom – well, that would kill the mood certainly. And that’s exactly what I feel about Arya.
In LotR we also have the prophecy that no mortal man can kill the Witch-King. And who kills him? A Woman. This is how it’s made – when the twist is meaningful, well established and deserved. And Arya killing the Night King – maybe, if you connect the dots, maybe it somehow works. Maybe it fits the theme. But it’s off-putting for me. I can’t deal with the idea that the greatest duel that we could have seen in these series, between the title: Song of Ice and Fire, has been replaced with a surprise attack of Arya, that should have had her neck snapped the moment the Night King grips her. This is something I can’t understand. And yet, it’s more cliche for me than Jon as a predictible opponent.
kevin1989,
The most probable course of the further events for Westeros is that now the Seven Kingdoms (including the North and the Night’s Watch which is now doomed to transform into a secular state by means of converting to another religion) will unite to overthrow an “evil tree” Bran along with “demon monkey” Tyrion, and then the leader of the rebellion will grant more rights for the commoners and lesser lords in exchange for their support.
Young Dragon,
Maybe you could say that if it wasn’t a popular opinion, but tons of people are saying the same thing. So I don’t really know if you can say it’s “objective”. Also, if they were so dedicated to GoT, why were they working on other projects when 100% of their focus should’ve been on GoT? Why were they spending time pitching Confederate and writing a Star Wars script, such that HBO and Disney made two huge announcements regarding these projects?
Inga,
Dear inga, my country the netherlands started of the same way GoT ended, the only difference is that instead of “officials” choosing a “king” we chose a “premier”, at the beginning just like in GoT only the rich nobleman could choose the premier. Now we are one of the best democracies of the world. It took many years before the people could vote for the premier in our land, but we got there. Stating that a chosen leader by only nobleman always look to autocracy is just wrong, my country is prove of that. So you can call it what you want, but my country is prove that your statement is wrong. Maybe if they had change the name of Bran to premier instead of King the point would be more there.
And if you look at the world, the biggest country in the world the united stated is a “oligarchy” even president Jimmy Carter stated that.
Adam,
I have to agree with Dany a bit. For me her ending was always there since the beginning. But I think the biggest problem (and which I think George will take a faster route with it), is having Dany being seen as the savior of the story till season 7. I think what should have happen is that she should have been much darker person when sailing to Westeros. Which I expect be the case in the books. I mean the burning of the Khals could have shown us that, that that changed her after that. And in season 7 we should have had a feeling that Dany is also darker then she was in season 7, we felt she was to entitled, but for me it would have made more sense if back then she already had the mindset she had in 8×01, only Jon didn’t see it because of being in love. I think the reason why they didn’t do that was in fact 7×06, they needed Dany to be a big savior there. And if we had a more darker feeling that we got in 8×04/8×05 in 8×01 we would understand it more. Instead they wanted us to feel first that Dany would end Cersei as a hero and change it later. I think it would have been better if in fact they would have switch it already in 8×01, having us feel Cersei is a better suit for the throne than Dany, they already changed Cersei in 8×05 to be a more emotional being, so why not change her at the beginning that she protects the people now and they adore her. (I think the books will go that way instead of Cersei it will be Griff, but they omitted Griff so Dany character development changed because of that)
And about Lotr reference, you made my point, it didn’t matter that Frodo wasn’t the one destroying the ring. In fact he didn’t want to destroy the ring and just like Isildur he wanted to walk away. It was the action of Smeagol that destroyed the ring. Same with GoT we expected it to be Jon, we got a duel on dragon back with him and the NK that failed like Frodo failed, and the story continues with Arya (smeagol) destroying the evil. The one that made a lot of sense looking at her storyline (smeagol storyline) and it’s a small change of how we expected it to go. And if you look at it in the end it’s still Jon that made it possible. It all started with Needle.
Inga,
True, same thing happen in our country. At a certain moment the common folk were tired of having only the officials speak for them. They rioted and after that the people got their votes (simply put there was more to it). But still this moment was needed, having the king giving up his power and let himself be chosen and not giving the power to his child. It’s not perfect but it’s a step forward (like many countries shows) that lead to democracy a couple of decenia later (or centuries). I think Bran is save but I think after 3 or 4 times choosing a elected King we got one that is sort of evil. And another change is made, having a time frame for instance 10 years a new king must be chosen, after that a couple of times they changed the name from King to something else, and giving more power to the ones below the elected King/premier. And after that the people will get a vote. It takes maybe 200 years but Westeros will go there.
kevin1989,
OK well you at least agree they owed it to HBO to finish strong? HBO made their careers by taking a chance on them, even after they screwed up the initial pilot, and they supported them with all of the best artisans, directors, cinematographers, producers, etc. People who already been responsible for some of the best shows of all time. D & D should’ve put their hearts into finishing GoT as strong as possible, instead they whined about how difficult life is because they’ve been trapped working on the greatest story / TV show of all time for so long.
Regarding Cogman, I seriously doubt that D & D were responsible for his great episodes in the later seasons. Why? Because Bryan’s writing was outpacing theirs. His episodes in S7 and S8 were the two best episodes of those seasons hands down. The only ones that felt like they were of the quality of the earlier seasons. His episode A Broken Man in S6 was one of the best in the series. D & D were petty and greedy and not only couldn’t they let someone else take the reins of the show, but they couldn’t even give Bryan a shot an Emmy. Even if what you say is true they could’ve put their names on the episode and shared an Emmy with Bryan as a thank you for all the hard work he did. But of course, the photo op of Bryan winning an Emmy on stage would make people think that he was one of the three creators and detract from the credit they would receive for GoT.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
3 things:
– For me they ended strong. Maybe not strong enough that I have hoped. Still pretty damn good compared to other stories being told. And they did a terrific Job. I remember other producers who adapt books and some stated that they have much praise for D&D for finishing an unfinished book, that it’s something that they could not have done (If I remember correctly that was Peter Jackson or Stephen King that said that)
– Didn’t Cogman not told that himself that D&D changed a lot of his episodes. I remember George told at least that D&D upgraded his scripts a lot, that they did something he could not on screen
– We can all discuss which episode should have been entered for the emmy’s. but like any other show that just finished their last season, they all chose the final episode to be submitted. Why? because it’s the last and they want to know if their endproduct is a good endproduct. Having a mid-episode chosen instead of the last is never done before for a last season.
kevin1989,
Kevin, the Netherlands are not a democracy: your country is a constitutional monarchy. Moreover, your country has restored hereditary monarchy after being a republic for two centuries (1581-1795) and that happened pretty late (1815) when some countries were already electing presidents instead of kings. So, with respect, the Netherlands is not a relevant example and the only thing it proves is that hereditary monarchy can be a good thing, LOL.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
People can say it all they want, that doesn’t make it true, especially since all evidence points to the contrary. They planned for 70 episodes and gave us 73, spending a year longer working on the final season. These are objective facts that contradict your claims that they rushed through it. As for their other projects, they were aware GOT was nearing the end, so they were planning on their future, which isn’t at all unusual. If they started production on the project, you may have a point but all they did was pitch an idea which HBO and Disney approved. The real work would have begun after they wrapped up GOT.
Young Dragon,
I’m just quoting Benioff himself. He said Game of Thrones is a 50 week per year job. Developing other projects is extremely time consuming. Past a certain point, D & D got tired of focusing solely on Game of Thrones and started wandering off to other projects. It cut into the time they were spending on GoT probably when it needed their attention the most. As a result, the quality suffered and the show got much worse critical response and audience reaction.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
You know, I don’t think it was an issue of time. When you write, you either have a story, or you don’t. In this case, D&D had no story. GRRM gave them an outline, but it feels like they couldn’t connect to it. So, they did their best to check in the boxes GRRM has given to them, but the story went off the rail anyway, because GRRM has no idea how to get to those boxes himself. For instance, if he wants to turn Dany into a villain, he has to turn Meereen and the entire Slaver’s bay into a bloodbath. As soon as Dany takes over the Dothraki, shell be at the peak of her power and she’ll have to show her true face; there’s no other way. However, if she shows her true face in Meereen, there will be no way to hide it in Westeros, there will be no way to hold her from sacking King’s Landing immediately and so on. And therefore there will be no way to make Jon fall in love with her or her to fall in love with Jon, which is essential for the planned endgame. In other words, GRRM has written himself into a corner and got stuck, whereas D&D had to do their best with what they were given and ended up with a dissatisfactory result anyway.
I feel like we’ve discussed this before, so apologies if so, however you criticise D&D for everything after S5 (when they ran out of source material) yet S6 is widely acknowledged as the pinnacle of the show by critics and fans alike. Granted they likely had a lot of stuff from GRRM to write/produce that season and it’s clear in my eyes they were only operating on an outline for S7/S8 but you don’t even recognise that.
It’s a sad reflection of social media and how it’s used to pedal disinformation now. Trump does this, Russia does this and lots more sadly, only yesterday I had someone try to tell me that Kit Harringtons personal issues were due to bad writing of S8 and how unhappy he was, this person had read it online and believed it to be factual.
Inga,
combined with a “parliamentary representative democracy”
In 2016 the EIU (Economist Intelligence Unit) rated the Netherlands as a “full democracy”
Full democracy: Full democracies are nations where civil liberties and basic political freedoms are not only respected, but also reinforced by a political culture conducive to the thriving of democratic principles. These nations have a valid system of governmental checks and balances, an independent judiciary whose decisions are enforced, governments that function adequately, and diverse and independent media. These nations have only limited problems in democratic functioning.
And we ranked 11 worldwide as the best democracy of the world of all the 167 countries of the world.
The Constitutional monarchy is just a small part compared to the parliamentary representative democracy part. Where in the past the king/queen of our country had a lot of power, it is non-existed, don’t know really how long that law has changed but not a long time ago we had made the power of the king non-existed almost. His only power now is that he can stop a new law from being made. For the rest he is just an image for the country where other countries could recognize us.
And true we got hereditary monarchy back then. I have to agree with you there, but once we set our first step back into democracy it went very fast compared to other countries to becoming one of the best democracies of the world, the power of the king/queens were very fast abolished (hopefully the right word) to almost nothing. And now the King is there only for having somebody to protect the people if for instance a premier wanted to implement laws that could lead to dictatorship/ hunger or other rights that the people have.
Young Dragon,
Their first plan (made around season 3 and 4) where they knew where the story was headed it was their plan to have the story of season 7 and 8 being told in 1 season of 10 episodes with the length of what we got back then, 50/60 minutes. What they gave us is almost double what they had planned.
Also their deal with Disney about Star Wars was made more then a year later then them finishing the scripts of GoT season 8
Inga,
Very mature post, you see the big problem here, it’s not D&D at all, they had given just checkboxes by GRRM because GRRM don’t know how to get to that point either. Dany needs to be a very dark person already over 50% evil before she lands on Westeros. But how does he make Jon not see that side of her and only the good side. It’s very difficult to get to that point. D&D did the best with what they got. If GRRM had even given D&D a big outline of every storyline it could be much much better.
And it’s also a big fault of George’s publisher. I don’t understand that they publish all his other books when the main-book is waiting. They should have just urge George, that they will not publish any non-ASOIAF books before Dream is almost ready.
Jon Snowed,
I found those lies disgusting. Putting words into other’s mouths. Poor Kit 🙁 It’s very hard to defend yourself against this and constantly stating: I didn’t say that is very tiresome.
kevin1989,
My apologies for any offense.
It was NOT clear to me that you meant it as a metaphor.
Sorry also if I came over to strong with that comment, I wanted to react (Because I like this site) but also in a hurry, so I wrote it very fast. Sorry if I came over too harsh my apologies, wasn’t my intention.
kevin1989,
I wasn’t referring to Sansa’s distrusting Jaime when he first arrived, which was completely understandable. I was referring to her telling him that she always wanted to be in KL when his sister was executed. The sentiment is understandable, but given everything he’d just done—this was after the NK was defeated, remember—her words came across as nothing other than petty, vindictive, and cruel. And as Pigeon mentioned, they were spoken in Brienne’s presence, when it was already crystal-clear that Brienne had feelings for Jaime. So she also didn’t care about hurting Brienne.
I stand by my assertion that they were words unbecoming of a lady.
kevin1989,
It’s all fine!!! This is why this is the only fan site I participate in. 🙂
Wolfish,
Oh that scene, yes I agree, it felt like they wanted to implement the feelings of Sansa that she had of Cersei in that moment, but the scene was way off. But I think a huge problem is that they did 2 episodes in 1. If they had one episode of afterparty of the WW treat and one later they could have had some scenes more and having her said it to Arya for instance which would have made more sense.
And wouldn’t it have been nice if she had said it in fact to Dany. Having Sansa encourage Dany to take Cersei down.
kevin1989,
Totally agreed!!!
Inga,
Playing Devil’s Advocate: Is it an insult or a logical progression? Maybe the in-joke is like the end of Sideways, where the protagonist is so ignorant—albeit believing he’s knowledgeable—that he doesn’t even realize that his dream bottle he’s been hoarding is actually Merlot. 😂
Inga,
But they didn’t have to follow anything George did, they could’ve changed whatever they wanted (and often times they did, especially when it meant streamlining the show so they could be done with it faster). I think they lazily stuck to George’s major beats after they had lost interest, because they felt like no one would blame them if things turned out shitty and also because it would’ve taken them a ton more work and time to come up with their own ending (which they would’ve got no credit for if it was good and diverted from George’s source material). It was a nice little cop out excuse to be lazy, “but this is what George is going to do”.
Every other show on TV has to generate their own original material which is what they could’ve done too. Honestly, maybe it’s why they lost so much interest in GoT. Maybe they felt like slaves to George’s material and that they would never get any credit for anything they did, no matter how much they diverted (people would only realize years later after George released the final two books, if he ever does). They would only get blamed for the mistakes, and George would get all the credit for everything new and interesting they did. Maybe that was a big part of their loss in interest.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I think I predicted a year ago two possible scenarios about the show’s conclusion:
Fandom: “That ending was f*cking awesome!”
GRRM: “Exactly how I told Dan and Dave to do it.”
Fandom: “That ending sucked!”
GRRM: “Don’t look at me.”
LatrineDiggerBrian,
They weren’t developing other projects. They came up with an idea and pitched it to HBO. That’s it. And the critical response only happened in season 8, not season 6, when you became critical of the show. The final season was always going to be polarizing. I knew it would be even before the actors warned us not everyone would like it. There are simply too many theories, too many fan favorite characters for everyone to be satisfied.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
HBO doesn’t care about the quality of their shows, only the number of subscribers that the show brings in, and on that front, D&D definitely delivered. GOT brought in more HBO subscribers than any other show that came before. Jon Oliver even made a joke about it saying, “ When GOT is done, HBO is fucked.” D&D owe HBO, but HBO also owes D&D.
For seasons 1,3,4,5,6, and 7, D&D wrote the fan favorite episode of that season. GRRM had the best episode of season 2. Cogman only had the fan favorite episode of season 8, and per his own words, a lot of it was written by D&D, including the iconic song. D&D had no reason to fear of Cogman outshining them. They were the showrunners and wrote around 50 of the 73 episode show. GOT was their success, and though Cogman contributed, his contribution was nothing compared to D&D. His episode wasn’t chosen because HBO thought The Iron Throne stood a better chance. That’s it.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I still don’t understand why you do this. The only reason that you think they lost interest was because they ended the show. Guess what? All shows come to an end. D&D brought GOT to a close and and wrote a natural conclusion for the ending. You simply didn’t like the direction they took with the story, which is completely fine, but don’t pretend it’s anything but that.
Young Dragon,
I can’t speak for LDB, but for me—and many others whose comments I’ve read here—the problem wasn’t with “the direction they took with the story,” but the multiple shortcuts, many invisible, they used to reach the conclusion. I do realize there’s an entire world of commenters on Reddit, YouTube, and other sites who lost their shit when Dany broke bad and Bran became king; I’m not in that group, and I’d venture that most regular commenters here aren’t either. So sticking just with WotW… most of us who are sorely disappointed aren’t disappointed by the what, but the how.
You and I have already gone rounds over the things we disagree about, and I’m not interested in rehashing any of that. To each his/her own. I’m just tired of seeing comments to the effect of “You’re just mad because your fanboy theory didn’t work out,” when the reality is that most of us simply wanted a dénouement as rich in character development, story development, and “high-thread-count moments” as we had become accustomed to in S1-6.
Wolfish,
Whether or not you criticized the what or the how isn’t the issue. You may not like the ending, or you may not like how they got to the ending, the fact remains the same that you didn’t like the direction they took the story. That would be fine, but then you and others make unfounded statements about how the showrunners lost interest or took shortcuts when all evidence points to the contrary. They’ve been planning to end with 70-80 episodes for several years and they spent an extra year working on season 8. If they wanted to get it over with, they would have simply whipped something together and thrown it on our screens, but not even you can deny the amount of hard work, not just D&D, but the entire cast and crew put into this final season.
Even in the final season, D&D never forgot the characters were the heart of the story. They gave us a plethora of character moments that could match any of the character moments that came in the previous seasons.
Yes, there are several of you who care about the how, but there are many, many more who are complaining about the what, even on here.
I repeat: I do not wish to rehash past discussions. Your definitions of “unfounded” and “evidence” are apparently different from mine. We can leave it at that.
I have never denied the amount of hard work, on everyone’s part, that has gone into the show. “Hard” work and “best” work is, again, subjective.
P.S.: Lena Headey was, apparently, as unsatisfied as many of us with Cersei’s death. Agree or disagree with her, it’s a great profile of a great actress. Long may she reign! https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jun/16/lena-headey-cersei-death-game-of-thrones-the-flood-interview?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1560673989
Ten Bears,
Same with, years ago people were talking: It would be awesome if everyone in Westeros dies and the white walkers win.
Now: The ending is to nihilistic.
Young Dragon,
And don’t forget. D&D did a lot of changes to George’s episode of blackwater. Lot was missing, they added the famous Sandor Bronn scene with the soldiers singing rains of Castamere.
And also the emmy’s will look at the scripts. Not at how the scripts looked in the end on screen, there’s a big difference.
Wolfish,
Well, in fact even here some stated that’s it’s the what. I’m not going to say names, but even read this comment section:
– People are calling that Dany shouldn’t become the villain.
– That Bran becoming King doesn’t make sense and it should be Jon storywise or Dany.
– Even one stated that they shouldn’t go for the ending of George but their own ending. (Which if you read between the lines means, they should have made Dany the hero in the end)
– In other articles there was one (don’t remember who precisely) who said that he or she wrote her own fanction of episode 3 till 6 and that for him or her that will be the ending they think of when thinking of GoT.
– the WW treat needed to end in the final of the show. Was also stated many times.
I know you talked about the how. But still that’s the difference, you were disappointed that GoT delivered this, you expected more from GoT but still if I remember correctly you still though it was good enough to give a positive rating (6+), correct me if i’m wrong.
Wolfish,
I have to say that as far as I like the what happened with Cersei in the end, I think they could have made it more emotional. Or maybe in fact the what more gruesome, I think Lena means that, I don’t know if it’s true that she meant that.
I mean we could have the same kind of emotional ending for Cersei but still having a more gruesome death. for instance they could have let her live and let Dany execute Cersei and Jaime both in the opening sequence of the final episode, even made it for the audience more known how far Dany will go, murdering a pregnant women.
But I still call it, it has to do with 4 things:
1. The books aren’t done. D&D are excellent writers, but these are George’s storylines and characters. They understand the characters with how George tell them and they convert them to screen better then George could do. But they aren’t mind readers. And they lack one thing that is needed for a show like GoT. How to deal with a ton of characters and give everyone something to do. I think if they saw some amazing stuff George though of they would have went that way.
2. I still call it, some disagree with me, but I still think omitting young Griff was a big mistake. I think how much I liked winds of winter. Cersei was at her top there. Season 7 and 8 were 2 seasons where I was not invested in Cersei. Yes I liked Cersei in 8×04 but she was not what she used to be. I think in the books Cersei will go and make place for young Griff on the throne. A just ruler, being conquour by a invader which we have a sense in the whole last book that we don’t want young griff of the throne. This could have served 2 things, 1 Cersei’s death would be better. 2 The Dany will become the villain trope would have been more believable. Her reason to snap would have been more believable and also we sided with griff already.
3. I still think they should have made Dany more darker in season 6 already. We should have had a feeling like we did in 8×01 at the end of season 6. This is not good where she is heading. Season 7 could have been her already pretty dark but only Jon doesn’t see it. Having her already on the edge of episode 8×04 in 8×01. Which would have made her transition better. But I think D&D were afraid if Dany showed any sign of evil in the final of season 6 we wouldn’t watch 7.
4. For me the story of season 7 and 8 was great it needed to go there. But I still think that season 5 and 6 needed a more fleshed out Dorne and Iron Island plot with Young griff. Meaning that for me it should have had longer episodes like we got in season 7 and 8. Or having those 2 seasons split into 2,5/3 seasons.
Wolfish,
When you say that the writers “take shortcuts” you are saying they are not working hard, which is simply untrue.
The reason you don’t want to rehash the argument is because you can’t. The evidence I gave is irrefutable and proves without a shadow of a doubt that D&D didn’t rush through the final season. You have no evidence to prove the contrary.
kevin1989,
Yes, and I believe it was the director who suggested Stannis be more involved in the bay.
Wolfish,
I haven’t watched “Sideways”, so I may get you wrong. However, when it comes to the question of whether the ending was an insult or a logical progression, it might be assessed as a logical progression of deconstructivism. You see, heroic myths deconstructivism always targets are not here for nothing. They are essential for any human society: they set values and rules and among those values and rules honesty is paramount. Society can live with violence, but not dishonesty: every lie incurs debt to the truth and sooner or later the debt is paid, quoting Greg Mazin’s “Chernobyl”.
Honesty (and truth) was the central theme in GOT as well: first, it was represented by Ned, then by Robb, and finally by Jon. Ned and Robb died for their honesty, which established the price for honesty. However, by the rule of the third time’s charm, Jon had to succeed and be rewarded and Dany was supposed to be the ultimate price. There was no need for her to break bad: she was build up as an archetypical sacrificial helper-maid and the story has never been about “power corrupts”. If they wanted to tell a story about “power corrupts” they (I mean both GRRM and D&D) should have written it differently from the very beginning.
Unfortunately, they wanted to deconstruct heroic myth and shock the audience all at once; in other words, they wanted both to have their cake and eat it. And that’s an inevitable recipe of disaster: they had to change the fundamental theme of the story 3 episodes before the end; they had to destroy every single character they have been building for 70 episodes, and on top of that they ended up rewarding every single schemer, lier and oathbreaker they could find or develop in the last three episodes from Cersei to Bran. They even abandoned the idea that violence is bad: Dany’s problem was solved in a violent act of a treacherous murder – it wasn’t even an execution. Moreover, they made a fool of Ned who spoke against such a solution back in season 1.
So, that’s the logical progression of deconstructivism: the story lost every good point it was trying to make and ended up deconstructing itself. In a way I am only happy that GOT ended in such a failure: the writers tried to deconstruct the very value of honesty and the backlash was well earned. Especially in combination with the tremendous success of “Chernobyl” which was fundamentally about the same thing – HONESTY and which was also a great example of telling the story HONESTLY, paying due respect to every archetype and trope which was enacted in the real life back then. This proves that the value of honesty and the heroic myth still prevail over deconstructivism.
Ten Bears,
I think if D & D had taken it in a completely different direction but still knocked it out of the park, George would’ve been honest about it.
Adam, Wolfish, Pigeon, TGHNN, Brian, Mladen, INGA–just wanted to say that I couldn’t have agreed more with everything you said. ^u^
My two cents (or few bucks): I didn’t *need* Arya to kill the NK; I was already convinced she was a “badassassin.” Having to change the eye-color order made it feel all the more flimsy a choice. I would’ve been fine with her killing Cersei because taking out the person who clearly needs to go doesn’t mean adopting a full lifetime dominated by vengeance. I honestly thought the Hound’s way of saving her was a little…corny…like yeah, Cersei was gonna die anyway at that point, you might as well not risk yourself, sure, okay, fine. But c’mon. Taking out the #1 person on the list could’ve been great; it’s not gonna turn you into Sandor (not that I’d mind really, he’s awesome and basically my spirit animal, like the Squidward of Westeros…XD) But whatever. I knew Arya’d have a significant part in the final wars to defeat Cersei and “the god of death,” that she’d keep on killing (possibly using the faces once more–oh well), that she surely already had all three eye colors under her belt…had the Walkers lasted at *least* one more week I think I could’ve been more enthusiastic about her being the one to finally take him down once and for all…still, there were so many options. So many characters. Plus, the way it happened, Arya honestly -should’ve- gotten her neck snapped…why would the NK just hold her and let her kill him? :/
It would’ve been amazing for her to have used her skills to infiltrate KL. Kept wondering how in the world they overlooked using her to assassinate Cersei (who in the end deserved worse while bimbo Jaime deserved better than returning to die with her. `^`)
Bran, ugh, I said enough about the other day on the SDCC article & previously.
Giving Arya the dagger was the obvious thing since she’d make the most use of it.
Sending the Dothraki out with their regular weapons was so…wtf.
The season should’ve been at least ten (long) episodes.
I’ll never see Jon as AA for killing “the ultimate villain.” That was the NK; there’ll be more threatening humans to have to do away with, but nothing like him until/unless he returns. My ultimate hero? Mel. Brought the flaming swords, made the darkness flee before her, brightened the view, united ice and fire, told Arya what was needed of her, finally got a beautiful death…she was one of the few people I thoroughly loved and was relatively satisfied by in S8 (despite wanting more scenes, with the Hound or Varys or the NK or the Fiery Hand, etc…and wanting her to be specifically acknowledged by more than two people afterward…)
Hated the mad-queen arc. Kept saying I didn’t fear it, it was only being teased, they wouldn’t go full MQ, they wouldn’t do that to her…and then oh yeah, they went there. Even though Dany would never before have been dumb enough to assume the people would love Cersei more than her if she showed them who she was–the real her, not this. Or to think that killing them all for nothing was a good idea. Don’t get how her “eyes” were “scary” after Viserys was killed; any sane person would have been glad to be rid of that guy.
XD!
Being a “ratings success” also means nothing; the final season of the biggest series ever was guaranteed to have record viewership regardless of what the viewers thought of it. No one in their right mind was going to skip the last few episodes of such a show. What counts is the feedback from those who were invested enough to provide it.
First of all, it didn’t have anything to do with “convincing” anyone that she’s a badass assassin, so I’m not sure where that came from..
The only thing flimsy here is the claim that the order is somehow make-it-or-break-it. Because, you know.. it’s not like other prophecies don’t have ambiguity in them, like Cersei’s Maggy the Frog or Azor Ahai prophecies. Besides, as I pointed out above, there is a perfectly valid and reasonable explanation for it that I don’t see any reason to ignore.
Also, how does killing Cersei, who has been on her list from season 2, regardless of the pragmatics or necessity of it, not immediately tie in with her revenge arc? It’s completely ridiculous to see it any other way at this point. And don’t get me wrong, I love Sandor. He’s an amazing character. But I would never advocate or wish upon anyone they follow a similar path of being consumed by hatred, anger, and desire for revenge at any cost. The irony of Sandor dying to kill his brother, who is basically already dead, is the point of his sacrifice.
Furthermore, as viki points out above, you don’t give the kind of character development and prominence that the show & books do to Arya to waste it on a simple, uninteresting, and one-note revenge arc. To paraphrase Ramsay, if you think that’s all her arc would amount to and that’s all GRRM/D&D had planned for her, “you haven’t been paying attention.”
I also just read an article where Miguel Sapochnik stated that he became frustrated with D&D on more than one occasion during filming different episodes.
Colleagues agree to disagree all the time, so it’s nothing new, but I do find it interesting that there are a number of people involved with the show that are slowly coming out stating that they weren’t as pleased with season 8 as they wish they could’ve been.
We’ve had Miguel express frustration about creative differences with D&D, Conleth Hill came out and said that he wasn’t happy with the direction D&D took his character the last couple of seasons, Emilia expressed that there were a few things she would’ve changed, and Lena wanted a better death for Cersei.
Young Dragon,
No, YD, it’s not because imho “the evidence [you] provided is irrefutable.” It’s because neither of us is going to change the other’s mind, and at some point one chooses (or not) to simply drop it. This isn’t a political or life-and-death argument, the outcome of which will profoundly affect my life. It’s a disagreement over the creative process and choices made by creative people, and my aforementioned life isn’t getting any longer. We’ve both said our pieces to each other, on this post and others.
kevin1989,
You’re not wrong.
Mr Derp,
They do seem to be coming out of the woodwork, eh? And to have four major participants do so within just a few weeks of the finale is pretty telling to me. Can you imagine what that internal chat Lena was referring to must be like (“You always know who’s been drinking”)? OMG!!!
The Lena comment feels very harsh to throw at D&D in my opinion whereas I believe the Conleth statement was a veiled criticism. Anyone have a link to this Sapochnik interview?
Jon Snowed,
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/06/game-of-thrones-battle-of-winterfell-miguel-sapochnik
Jon Snowed,
“Veiled” or “valid”? Honest question.
Jon Snowed,
http://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a28062118/game-of-thrones-director-felt-visually-policed/
Another version of the same story.
It’s clear that Miguel and D&D respected each other throughout the process, but it’s also clear that Miguel and D&D had creative differences.
Mr Derp,
Im very conflicted which one I agree with. On the one hand killing almost everyone would have made the episode more excited. The downside would be there needed to be people alive for episode 4 till 6. Maybe something in the middle should have been on screen.
Kevin1989,
I think I’m actually in the minority when I say that “The Long Night” was one of my favorite episodes of the season. I didn’t have any issue with the lighting, or Arya being the one to kill the NK.
However, it did seem like the entire battle with the AOTD was anticlimactic and pretty pointless from a storytelling standpoint when all is said and done. They turned out to be nothing more than a temporary distraction and all got killed right after breaching the Wall. IMO, 7 seasons of buildup made me think there was going to be a little bit more complexity to that part of the story and they would have a bigger impact on the endgame. But no. They pretty much just existed so that Dany would lose a dragon and another advisor (Jorah). They didn’t really have much of their own story. They were a plot device to turn Dany mad, which I personally thought was cheap. YMMV.
Everything that happened in season 8 was shoehorned to make Dany’s decent into madness seem more believable, but it just didn’t work for me. It seemed to work for plenty of others though.
Mr Derp,
Yes, that’s the problem. “The Long Night” could have been a great episode even despite the idiocy of the military strategy: after all the show was about the characters an the story and military strategy was a problem at each and every battle the show had. But the battle had zero effect on any of the characters, and it felt very wrong because in real life experiences of fighting and winning together is a big thing.
Inga,
I’m not as big on the military strategy part, but I generally agree that the strategies employed by our heroes were fairly inept. It’s all part of the dumbing down that happened to all of the remaining characters in the final season.
Charging the Dothraki into the darkness without knowing who or what was out there was really really dumb. But hey, it looked great on t.v.
During the strategy meeting in episode 4, they specifically mention that Euron’s navy was out there. Yet, Dany was shocked and surprised when Euron’s navy appeared a minute later. D&D also claimed during the behind the episode commentary that they “forgot about the Iron Fleet”. How dumb are these characters anyway? Did they really have to make them THIS stupid to make the plot work?
Dany couldn’t evade the arrows at all until episode 5 when her and Drogon were fired upon by tons of arrows and somehow they evade all of it easily.
Mr Derp,
As is in the case of almost any collaboration between creative people with a strong vision. Just look at Lennon/McCartney for instance. Strong creative minds tend to have strong opinions, and Sapochnik is right, this isn’t his show and D&D have every right to enforce what they think is right for their show. That doesn’t mean I agree with all of D&D’s decisions, and I think Sapochnik is an amazing director that could have probably brought some really interesting and unique ideas to the table. Ah.. the creative process.
I wouldn’t say the story ended up deconstructing itself. We’re left with an epic tragedy, one that has involved the subversion of some tropes and clichés, but the underlying heroic myths are left intact.
Honesty and truth were indeed among the central themes in GOT, and Jon did succeed and was rewarded and Dany was the ultimate price. To me, Dany didn’t become, nor was she revealed to be, “bad” at the end, and her story didn’t attempt to end in a message of “power corrupts”. She is a classic tragic hero, portrayed sympathetically to the end, dooming herself at the last quite unecessarily yet understandably through a horrific error of judgement made possible only after succumbing to her unique genetic and social predicament, no longer strong enough to resist these forces alone and betrayed. This left her in denial, in thrawl to delusions of Goodness and the means to its end and blind to the reality of her actions. (And these were beleivable delusions, repeatedly demonstrated in our own world’s history.) Her own goodness – her “gentle heart” – was still intact, and real, yet in her fall expressed itself in delusion rather than in truth, in lying to herself rather than in being honest, something she still could have been.
Would she have been? This is the question Jon is forced to answer with no time to wait. These delusions would be the ruin of the world. So he saves it. Again. Eternally unsure whether Dany’s goodness would have re-connected with truth and humanity or remained lost in the inhuman realm of the ideal. His arc also is one of the tragic hero, though while he must sacrifice his love and his honor to save the world, and this deprives him of his birthright as King, he is in the end rewarded with what he’s always wanted, freedom to be himself, in the Real North without the duties of a ruler.
It didn’t seem to me that the fundamental theme of the story changed at the end. Nor that all the characters that had been developed throughout the show were destroyed, nor that the liars were all rewarded (most characters both kept oaths and broke them). And they didn’t abandon the idea that violence is bad. That’s also one of the central themes of GOT, beautifully expressed in the last three episodes in my view. And of course, Ned spoke out against assasinating innocent children – not quite the same thing Jon and Tyrion were confronted with.
In the story as told, honesty retained its value. This was symbolized in an iconic way in Jon’s killing of Dany: the representation of honesty and truth killing the mesmerizing, attractive force of delusion and revolutionary zeal, to which his (and our) beloved Dany had succumbed. Bran as the new king means honesty is required in a way never before seen, since he knows what the truth is. In a way it’s the appointment of Truth as king. Will it all go well forever after? Of course not. But the story doesn’t abandon its own ideals, and ends well, it seems to me.
Inga,
Thank you for this insightful post. I didn’t like Season 8 at all and I was thinking, if the ending is the same in the books, that maybe because the medium allows us to spend more time with characters inner thoughts, GRRM would be able to pull it out more convincingly and believably. But your line of thinking really showed that maybe even that is not going to work well since there are things that mad Daenerys needs to do (burning her way through Essos) before sane Daenerys meets Jon , they had their romance and save humanity from Others only for mad Daenerys to take central stage again and burn KL. If she shows her “true” colours” in the books at the same point of time as in the show it would be to late as it eas in the show. Or, maybe, we will have a darker Jon in the books who is not going to be so nitpickey about his girlfriend burning a couple of hundred people here or couple of thousand there.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I was also thinking about this. Why would they blindly stick to GRRM’s ending if it wasn’t working with the story they created? For me, Season 7 ended on a highly different note to what we got in Season 8. There was even baby talk, of all things! I don’t know whether they did it intentionally or not, whether they were leading us on on purpose or not but the audience’s expectations were set in a different direction for certain character arcs. And then we had a complete U turn in the span of just 2 episodes 4 and 5 when they hammered us in the head how Daenerys is an absolute mad woman for whom there is no other way out but to be killed by her lover. It really appeared for me as if the showrunners remembered only after Season 7 concluded what their end game was and there was absolutely no time to present that successfully. That sloppy execution and bad writing combined with complete subversion of audience’s expectations (and those expectations weren’t just coming from wishful thinking, but were based on plot points from previous seasons we believed were important for the endgame only to be completely disregarded in Season 8), were main reasons that made many fans disappointed by the final outcome of the show.
Northern Breeze,
I don’t understand what Truth Bran represents. He came across to me in the end as the master manipulator who played all other contenders for the Throne and seized it for himself. His ominous words to Jon how he was where he was supposed to be gave me creeps. So, Jon was a puppet on the string for Bran to manipulate as he sees fit? It appears as if he knew in advance what would happen and insisted on Sam telling Jon about his parentage because he wanted to drive Jon and daenerys apart and push her over the edge.
Furthermore, Westeros is stuck in the end with a King Big Brother coming straight from Orwell’s 1984 none of whose subjects would have any privacy from. That’s bleak, frightening and nihilistic, no virtue there imo.
This is the only way I could explain Bran’s actions and it’s not putting him in good light.
Mr Derp,
I agree with you about the ww. And I think migual saw that. For me the episode was amazing on its own. But as many stated after that it lacked and then we were of checking off cersei and dany. I think the biggest problem with the ww in season 8 was that there was no action with them in episode 1 and 2. And in episode 3 they were gone pretty easy. I understand why some couldn’t die because of the end episode. But they could have killed a lot more red coats. And why not kill another dragon right there. Instead of in episode 4. I mean cersei is evil no matter what for killing misandei. And euron didn’t become interesting because of it.
Mr Derp,
That’s why I think it would have been better if the attack was on land. Having it happen once they moved on the long bridge. Having arrows fly from a place where it would have been logical. Just the moment dany lands on ground thinking they’re save rheagal is lying down. Dany steps of drogon. and then bam and arrow. Dany is shocked, rheagal just died the moment he was laying himself down to rest. Dany gets back on dragon. Tyrion flee to a save spot with varys. Grey worm walks toward where the arrows came from. He sends misandei to safety. But Grey worm kills the attackers with dany and drogon. But euron is not there. Euron played them. He is at the place that looks the safest the place where misandei fled to. The battle of over where dany and Co were (with some decoy ships). Euron is already far away. And this would also be euron. Sacrafice his own man to get something he wants. Misandei.
Milutin,
When did they talk about baby talk? As i stated back then after season 7 aired. That was not because a baby would be born. That was to show that prophecys are a farce.
Many predicted the ending already back then without even a single shooting day began. Meaning that the ending makes sense. Because else how we’re people back then thinking that Arya was going west, bran king yes was already years old theory, Jon back north, Sansa queen was also a big theory, dany going mad is already stated since season 1 by many. Or even book 1. Arya doing something against the ww was already stated before season 1 aired and only the books were there. The ending was already heavily discussed by many before season 8 even started filming. It makes sense the ending and a lot. Maybe the way lack some good path but the ending itself is true to what got is.
Kevin1989,
The biggest problem I have with season 8 is that most of the characters turned into complete morons in order for the plot to play out the way that D&D wanted it to.
Varys, one of the smartest and most cunning schemers in the entire show basically committed treason right out in the open in episode 5. He didn’t even try to hide it.
There was no reason for him to be so open about it. He knew Jon didn’t want the throne and was loyal to Dany, but he still came right up to Jon on the beach in front of everyone and tried to convince him to turn on Dany. An intelligent person wouldn’t do this. But hey, we gotta kill Varys because…drama?
Cersei, who may not be as smart as she thinks she is, but was still smart enough to scheme her way to the throne, had almost no plan whatsoever to prevent Dany from defeating her. Her ONLY plan was to use a bunch of scorpions. That. was. it. Once the scorpions were lost, she had absolutely no backup plan or idea what to do other than show a concerned look from her balcony, a la Littlefinger and Sansa in season 7.
Jaime, who finally realized that Cersei was toxic for him in season 7, immediately reverted back to wanting to be with her after Sansa told him that it was a shame she couldn’t watch Cersei be executed. Uh, ok?
We also saw Jaime and Brienne’s relationship slowly blossom for the last few seasons only to have Jaime leave her in the middle of the night after sleeping with her, so he could go back to Cersei. Uh, ok? If that’s what you want, fine, but don’t expect me to be on board with it.
Jon, who admittedly knows nothing, still should’ve been smarter than he was in season 8. Even after Dany torched KL and murdered thousands of innocent people, Jon was still loyal to her and needed a ton of convincing from Tyrion to no longer support her. They turned Jon from the capable commander of the NW into a love struck puppy.
He was also excessively naïve about his parentage reveal. Dany, who was 100% correct, told Jon that Sansa would use that information to destroy Dany and it would cause the end of Jon and Dany. Jon had to have been the only person in all of Westeros to not realize what a big rift that information would cause. It was frustrating to see him so gullible and naïve after having been through so much for the previous 7 seasons. Does he never learn?
Then there’s the scene at the Dragonpit. The scene starts with Tyrion being on trial for treason and ends with him choosing the next king of Westeros a minute later. Wait, what? Uh, ok?
It’s also hard for me to accept that Greyworm and the Unsullied/Dothraki wouldn’t kill Jon outright once they found out that he killed Dany, but whatever.
Tyrion. Oh, Tyrion. The smartest man in Westeros. He decided to support “The Mother of Dragons” to become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, yet he was terrified of the possibility of her using her dragons. Do I really need to explain why this is completely idiotic? The only thing that separated Dany from anyone else was the fact that she had dragons. It made no sense for Tyrion to support her. Plus, he never expressed any concern about using her dragons in season 5 or 6. He didn’t start getting cold feet until they arrived in Westeros, which is when they’d be the most important. Suddenly, the one thing that made Dany unique became a liability. WTF?
These were just a few examples. I don’t hate the final season like some do, but, obviously, I had a number of issues with it. I didn’t hate the ending, but I didn’t care much for it either. It kind of just left a bad taste in my mouth that a lot of what I spent 8 seasons watching didn’t really have much impact or purpose in the end.
Kevin1989,
You could probably find every possible ending of every character arc somewhere on the Internet in advance. So many people were theorizing for years so everything is already there. I don’t think it proves much.
I also don’t know how you missed the talk between Jon and Daenerys at the Dragonpit in s07e07 while they wait for Cersei and Tyrion. If that wasn’t baby talk, I don’t know what was!
Milutin,
Thank you. You summarized the most glaring script holes in Season 8.
I also found the scene where Drogon burns the IT silly. Detective Drogon finding out what actually killed Daenerys and granting clemency to Jon – that was a cartoon-level silliness better suited to “How to train your dragon” than GoT.
As I said in a previous post, the entire Bran thing left me completely puzzled. It seems like he orchestrated the fallout between Jon and Daenerys so that he could seize the IT in the end. Any other explanation just escapes me.
Milutin,
When it comes to Dany, it seems that showrunners have not only forgotten the entire S7 but also how they have written her in Ep 803, because in Ep 803 Dany emerges as a truly heroic and sacrificial person. By that moment she already knows Jon’s parentage. At the beginning (or rather at the end of Ep 802), she is a bit unhappy and rightfully cautious, but the battle with the dead puts everything into perspective: she forgets about the throne; she fights side by side with Jon; she does her best to buy him a chance to kill the Night King even at the cost of her own life – she would have been dead, if not of Jorah, finally she picks a sword to cover the back of her dear old friend. In other words, they make her as heroic and sacrificial as one can be, and two episodes later they turn her into a butt-hurt snowflake school-shooter who decides to burn a million of innocent civilians because no-one loves her!
And the premises for no-one to love her are also lame and false as avunculate marriages have never been a taboo. So, that’s why there’s no way for GRRM to finish his story in a satisfactory way with such an ending. Jon & Dany breaking apart because of incest which is not even true incest is a twist on the level of a Latin American soap opera Episode 999. In other words, it’s just hilarious and has nothing to do with good writing.
Milutin,
Yes, making Drogon burn the Iron Throne instead of Jon was a top of stupidity. And for what? To replace it with a wheel-chair? LOL. It’s like D&D have never red “Leviathan” by Hobbes.
Milutin,
Mistake. I wasn’t congratulating myself on the comment, but Mr Derp, lol.
Mr Derp,
I have to agree with some. Jon seems to be dumber. Same as varys and cersei.
As for Jaime I disagree I understand his reasoning.
I disagree the choosing King scene. But I agree with Jon surviving after killing dany.
And i hoped for a longer relationship with brienne and Jaime. Didn’t need to be more then one episode but let it feel like a relationship.
And about Jon and tyrion. Werent they in love with dany? That they went that far with condoning dany.
Milutin,
I know that scene. But as stated above and after that episode air. That wasn’t talk about dany becoming pregnant. That was talk about that prophecies aren’t always true. It could be a sign that cersei is in fact pregnant and not faking it.
Inga,
Well dany acted like a spoiled brat in episode 1 and 2. And in season 7 she was very entitled. Yes she was a hero in episode 3. But what else could she do at that moment? Not fight? And die? She had no chose then to fight there. There was not time for her and all her allies to flee south and back to essos. She had only one option and that is fight.
And I think it’s logical that after her heroic deed in episode 3. And still not getting praise and gratute from the people. Losing the most of all in that battle. Still find no love after that deed. Going back to your fight south and your child gets murdered, your best friend gets executed before your eyes. More sacrafices and after that the people still fear you and choose cersei. I think I would already have snapped in winterfell, luckily for me I don’t have a dragon.
I think the biggest problem is more that dany is still too good once landing in westeros. She already should be wicked and known to the viewers. But unknown to the people around her. Jon could have fallen in love with the farce she is holding onto. Dany in the books is also much smarter and could manipulate somebody better then the show version. Another change is that I think in the books tyrion will not be a good advisor to Dany. I think he will push her to destroy cersei but in the process forgets the people of kl. His hate for his sister push dany to that goal but the citizens will be the casualties that tyrion didn’t think about. I also think Jon will be a little bit darker when he comes back from the dead in the books. Meaning that danys dark side is better hiding for dany because Jon doesn’t see everything as bad anymore.
So for me the problem is more that season 5 till 7 didn’t build up everything good enough for what season 8 brough.
Milutin,
Bran could be seen to represent truth when considering what kind of perspective prospective rulers might have. Normally one can only see from one’s own POV and that is inevitably biased in some way, so our capacity for honesty is necessarily limited. The best of us, like Jon, try to be fair to others’ perpectives and thereby learn and reflect on our own, yet ultimately if we are honest we must remain true to our own perceptions, even though our perceptions are affected by our desires. As the Three-eyed Raven Bran the Broken, it seems, can see from everyone’s POV to some extent and is not limited to Bran Stark’s perceptions and viewpoint; and on top of that he is the one being in Westeros who doesn’t have worldly desires. This gives him the ability to see truly, in an untainted way, in a way no other choice for king would have provided.
As such I didn’t see Bran as a manipulator of events. To me he comes across as a kind of force of ancient wisdom – the Old Gods – who act by sharing knowledge. Indeed, he chooses what knowledge to divulge to whom and when, and can therefore easily be suspected of being a manipulator, yet the story seemed to me to be showing him as neutral in matters of politics yet focussed on the welfare of the living, and, in his own cold way, caring. On the side of the living and the good. The statements he made to other characters along the lines of “you were exactly where you were meant to be”, came across to me, as a viewer watching these interactions, as his attempts to reassure them, that they need not blame themselves. That all of us are part of greater designs.
“Why do you think I came all this way” does give us some reason to wonder about this, and maybe that was the intent, I don’t know. But I took it that as part of the rebalancing of the world at play after the elimination of the Others/White Walkers, the Old Gods were conscious it would include “them” (in the form of Bran) being placed for a time at the center of secular power in Westeros.
Young Dragon,
No I was critical since S6. That’s now how the sausage is made in Hollywood, people don’t simply whisper ideas into execs then only a little while later, MAJOR announcements are made. D & D would have had to develop their Confederate and Star Wars projects for months into order to convince HBO and Disney to make major announcements about them. Disney has put the movie on their schedule! D & D probably did multiple drafts on a Star Wars script, and if its a trilogy, much much more than that. There is no doubt they were spending way too much time on other things when they should’ve been working on GoT.
“HBO doesn’t care about the quality of their shows”. Couldn’t be anything further from the truth, HBO has built its reputation on quality and taking risks, that’s why they sweep the Emmy’s every year and have a catalogue that features many of the greatest shows of all time in every genre, and are the most respected network ever. They are not Netflix which releases 1000 shows a year to boost their catalogue, throwing shit to the wall to see what will stick. It’s why HBO is the greatest and most innovative network of all time and why they gave us GoT in the first place: they don’t sell out.
Just because a show ends doesn’t mean it should’ve ended or that it wasn’t rushed. Many many people are commenting on how the final seasons were hurried because D & D just wanted to be done with the show and move on. Add to that, they were actively doing a lot of work on other projects during GoT. You might have liked it, but at this point you’re the reverse Westeros.org as the common consensus on the finale and final seasons were that they were rushed duds.
Milutin,
Well said, though I didn’t enjoy S7 as much as you. Will be interesting to see how D & Ds Star Wars movie turns out, I think it could go either way.
Kevin1989,
First, I wouldn’t say that Dany acted like a spoiled brat in Ep 1 and 2: Sansa did. Meanwhile, Dany gave Jon a dragon after noticing that he had lost the respect of his people. And in Ep 2, Dany went to talk with Sansa and forgave Tyrion for his stupidity, etc.
Secondly, Dany didn’t receive love after her heroism in Ep 4 only because she had to go mad in Ep 5. And King’s Landing didn’t revolt for the same reason. In a normal world, it would have or at least there would have been some groups trying to open the gate to Dany for the sake of personal interests. Moreover, in a normal world, Team-Targarian would have been actively organizing the revolt. They had Gendry who was a skilled blacksmith which implies that he must have been respected by his colleagues and customers. Any sane person would have sent Gendry to KL to talk with the smallfolk and maybe Davos, too. Moreover, they had Jaime who could and should have persuaded the Lannister forces to surrender: soldiers follow commanders who bleed with them on battlefields, not queens which hide in castles. In other words, they had every piece of the puzzle but no: they couldn’t use it because Dany had to go mad.
And in general, they have been whitewashing Dany since S1. The first thing she did in Ep2 “The King’s Road” was stopping the caravan so that slaves could rest. And in S3-6 her whitewashing was just unbearable: in a normal world, the slaves would have killed all the masters including women and children even before Dany set a foot in Meereen. But again no: they made Dany handle this revolt smoothly only to increase the later shock! It’s not good writing and it’s not honest writing: it’s blatant pranking and deconstructivism at any cost.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Perspective really changes how we look at things. I also had many problems with Season 7 (rushed story telling, the declining quality of script, absolutely non sensical wight hunt both how it was executed and that anyone in-universe would think it a good idea and so on) and it wasn’t and still isn’t my favourite, but when compared to season 8 it shines with a new light. It is more in tune and more consistent with the previous 6 seasons, than season 8 could ever hope to be imo with its predecessors.
Northern Breeze,
If Bran is not a manipulator, it’s even worse: he’s a total fool. Look, Bran knew that there was a crisis coming, so why didn’t he do anything? Look, if you feel that your cousin’s girlfriend who saved your ass may snap into a bloody hysteria, you should talk to him or her, right? You should do your best to prevent this snap, right? You can’t just sit under the tree when the world around you is falling apart. And if Bran failed to handle this crisis, how will he be able to handle any other one? We have already seen that he is absolutely incapable of ruling out conflicts in a peaceful way, but no: give him more power, maybe he’ll do better, LOL.
Northern Breeze,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I would like to be able to see it with optimism as you do, but I can’t.
You mentioned “his own cold way” as the way he behaves. That detachment and lack of human feelings and passion is what I can’t relate to and find it sympathetic. I find it disturbing.
Also, is naming a magical being a regression or a progression for Westeros? Where does that lead to? Is Bran the king or the Three-Eyed Raven? Will he live and rule for hundreds of years or “for a time” as you say? Drogon could very well be the ruler then as well. He showed great insight and intelligence deciding who’s to blame for Daenerys’s death, lol.
This is of course epic fantasy show, but to put such a fantastic entity to rule the realms of men imo cuts any analogy we could have had with our world and its real problems and invalidates the relevance of any messages or lessons the show might have wanted to convey to the audience.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
I said you were critical of season 6. You don’t know how the process works, so stop pretending that you do. It wasn’t a major announcement, it was just an announcement to test the waters, and it’s a good thing that they did. It was just an idea they pitched at that point, production hadn’t begun yet. In fact, they made it perfectly clear that production wouldn’t start until after GOT concluded. To them, GOT always came first.
Quality is subjective, so please allow me to rephrase my previous comment. HBO doesn’t care if their shows are received well by critics. All they care is how the viewers/subscribers respond, and if you’re not aware of that, clearly you don’t understand how television studios work. Why do you think shows like Entourage, True Detective, and True Blood were renewed despite negative critical reviews, but shows like Deadwood and Rome were cancelled?
People think season 8 was rushed because they don’t know the difference between rushed and fast paced. Season 8 was certainly faster paced than the previous seasons, so I understand why people think it was rushed, but it wasn’t. An example of a rushed storyline would be the Winterfell plot last season. It was rushed because it started in episode 5 and ended in episode 7. That wasn’t enough time to properly build it up and end. That’s why it was jarring when Arya and Sansa were hugging and reconciling in episode 4 and then were at each other’s throats in episode 5. Season 8, on the other hand, was able to avoid being rushed. There were only two storylines in season 8, the war against the dead and the war against Cersei. If either of these storylines had only just begun in season 8, if we’ve never even heard of a White Walker before they popped up, then it would have been rushed, but thankfully, that wasn’t the case. Both of these storylines had already been built up from previous seasons. All season 8 had to do was end it.
Thanks Derp, interesting interview they point out that Miguel was/is not bitter so I suspect he’s responded honestly to a leading question in relation to criticism of S8. Likely many directors have similar differences of opinion so I wouldn’t read too much in to it but I wouldn’t discard it totally either.
I must admit I did favour Jorah dying in the charge as it felt very unrealistic that thousands of Dothraki are wiped out yet he and a dozen or so stragglers retreat. That said, it did carry more emotional punch when he died defending Dany even if it did feel slightly corny.
Honestly I feel Conleth spoke out of frustration so likely it’s valid. Equally I recognise there were aspects of Varys behaviour in S8 which seemed out of place versus prior seasons. That said, he died doing the right thing for the realm which is what he said since season 2 was his primary motivation so it wasn’t completely out of wack.
Inga,
As for dany in season 8. Maybe spoiled brat is a big word as you stated Sansa was also a spoiled brat. But she went into winterfell expecting to get love from everyone without even trying to work for it. (they don’t know anything about her sacrafice in 7×06 so she needs to do her best). All she did was make snarky comments back to the ones disliking her. That wasn’t a smart move. And as for the way she talked to Sam was also not really showing that she deserve love. She could at least stated that she feels sorry for Sam. Would have changed a lot. Instead she just told it as a summary of a movie you just watched. Without feeling just saying you were right. Same with episode 2. There were lot of memes made because of danys fake laugh and fakeness in the scene with Sansa (brilliantly acted by Emilia).
And yes I agree fully with you the problem is not really season 8 perse for me with dany. But her whitewashing in season 1 till 7. Even in the books she already is thinking about being bored and want to move on. Tyrion is also much less dark in the show.
But i think those problems occure if you are putting a show on screen without the books done (and without listening to the writer that some details are important for endgame) I remember back with Harry Potter filming that Rowling told the directors and writers to implement some parts of the books because if those were omitted the ending of the saga would fell flat on its back.
And another problem that got had since season 2 is that they wanted every character in at least 8 episodes. Personally I liked shows like leftovers more that just concentrate on 1 storyline (with got they could have given every episode to max 4 storylines instead of the 8 9 we got per episode). I rather just see certain character in just 3 episodes per season if in those episodes those characters had a story to tell. Like with dany in season 2 I would have mind if her story was 1 episode of her first scenes ending with her at the gates of qarth. One with her scenes from episode 5 till 8. And one with the final. It would have been just 3 episodes. But for me it would have been 3 amazing episodes that focused heavily on dany. Instead of 5 minutes per episode.
Young Dragon,
Well I agree a lot with you. But I disagree with one thing. Season 8 was very slow paced. But some parts were cut which felt like the story was rushed.
Kevin1989,
Sorry, Kevin, I can’t agree. In the first scene of Ep 801 Dany was trying to be as friendly, as possible and it was Sansa who started. And when it comes to the fact that no-one in the North seemed to know about Dany’s sacrifice in 7×06 it’s really strange because Bran must have known: he must have seen under which circumstances she lost a dragon to the Night King.
As for Dany not being sorry for Sam, to me, it looked like she was.
As for Dany’s exchange with Sansa, sorry, negotiating Lithuanian independence with Boris Yeltsin was much much harder, etc.
But maybe let’s move to our discussion to another thread: IMO, Petra made some very valid points in her video essay.
QueenofThrones,
I don’t really think any of these actors deserve an Emmy for season 8, you guys.
Sorry to be a party pooper, but the acting this season has been mediocre at best and there are far better perfomances in other tv-shows that should be nominated instead. this season deserves an Emmy only for Ramin Djawadi’s spectacular work for compositing the OST.
Inga,
Well, not a manipulator in the sense of being unscrupulous. How conscious Bran is of his intent, now that “he” operates from something other than normal human consciousness is an interesting question. You’re right that his actions and inactions leave us to wonder how much of a conscious agenda he as the Three-eyed Raven has and what that could be. That is, who is really acting through him and why, and of how much is he/they aware, particularly of future probabilities. How long does it take for Bran to fully integrate the visions, memories, perceptions he is portrayed as gradually attempting to make sense of? How many of his actions and inactions were therefore mistakes? And how much is a fully integrated Three-eyed Raven’s consciousness influenced by the personal history and mental habits of the “host”, now Bran?
If not at all, what intent – good or otherwise (I think it’s made clear it’s not entirely bad) – do the Old Gods have (assuming the Old Gods are acting through the Three-eyed Raven)? You’re right to question it and I think that’s partly the point. We are left to ponder if it could be some more fundamental universal Old God perspective that recognizes that in the full accounting of all things certain events, even tragic ones, must be allowed to play out in order to prevent greater tragedies. And in that case it’s an interesting and obvious parallel to the flawed accounting Dany convinces herself of using the same rationale in her delusion. Which would have truly been better? Ask me in ten years.
And maybe it was none of that, that Bran was simply acting in each moment from the best intent he could with what he saw at that time, aware that he too was an actor (or in-actor) playing his part the same as everyone else in a series of events where everyone was, in the end, exactly where they were meant to be.
The show leaves us with interesting questions, valuable in themselves when left as such, to ponder and reflect upon; the books will be able to provide us with deeper answers if GRRM chooses to, and I hope he does.
Milutin,
Yes, the Three-eyed Raven is certainly hard to relate to. The way the show has portrayed it, there are some similarities to the way certain spiritual traditions understand the potential of human consciousness: that those who realize that potential may no longer act in much of an emotional, personal way. For example in Buddhism an individual is recognized as being able to cultivate an ever-deeper awareness of their own mind to the point where they no longer experience themselves as an individual, are no longer bound by their desires, and while they might experience mental habits they had previously developed they no longer perceive them as their own. Consequently they may seem less relatable to others. However, that person is full of loving-kindness and compassion, along with their wisdom, and their warmth is usually palpable. Bran may have his world’s version of wisdom but his compassion is unclear, and he certainly needs to work on his warmth.
I think the signs are good though, so yes, I’m optimistic for Westeros’s next epoch as far as can be hoped for in that bleak and cynical world. Bran has chosen his Small Council well, and thereby shows signs that he cares, both for good governance and for the people. Will that be enough? It never is. But it’s among the best outcomes the Westerosi could have hoped for.
So to the question of whether or not it’s good in principle for Westeros to have a magical being on the throne … it’s a good question. And it will probably take them longer than ten years to know the answer. Most people, common folk as well as nobility, probably won’t believe he is anything other than Bran Stark. Some will see him as a limp figurehead put in place by the Imp, some as a manipulator extraordinaire using the myth of magic and religion to fool his subjects. As you point out, the important question is how long will the Three-eyed Raven rule and, most crucially, will it be the next Three-eyed Raven or a normal person that the Great Council elects after Bran.
In our own world we have the myths of God-monarchs and divine heredity as the basis for many societies’ royal histories. So the story ending with Bran the Broken does have some resonance for me for our own world, even though Planetos is a very different place.
Northern Breeze,
Just want to tell you I’ve really, really enjoyed your comments.
Young Dragon,
I don’t know what to tell you. Every day a new director or actor comes out to say how they were displeased with S8. Add to this, apparently there was a behind the scenes segment for E6 that apparently got removed by HBO. I think it got ugly at the end between D & D and HBO for some reason, maybe for the reasons ThisGirlHasNoName said about a falling out over Confederate. Or maybe because HBO felt they were focusing their time too much else where. In the coming months or weeks, I predict the truth will come out from some journalist who writes an article on the behind the scenes of the show.
Wolfish,
Thank you, Wolfish. (I hope you’ve recovered well.)
Northern Breeze,
Thank you so much!!! I have, and I’ll return to work Monday. Spending my downtime getting everything together for Con, among other things!
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Miguel Sapochnik said that he had creative differences with the showrunners since they first hired him for season 5. If there was bad blood between them, he wouldn’t have returned. Conleth Hill similarly said he had problems with Varys’s character for several seasons, not just season 8. I understand. He wasn’t given much to do unfortunately, but I personally really enjoyed him in season 8 and thought it was his best season since season 4. Lena Headey only had a problem with her death, not season 8 as a whole. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here. Even if everyone in the cast and crew came out and said they hated season 8, why would that change my opinion about it?
Really?! I’d argue the acting this season was very good, even Emilia was at the top of her range and noticeably improved from prior seasons. The issue, in terms of criticism, seemingly was more with pacing/writing.
Adam,
Drogon was able to avoid arrows better than Rhaegal because he had a rider. Also, Rhaegal was more battle weary after the Battle of Winterfell. He was barely able to fly back to Dragonstone which contributed to them taking him out so easily. Dany should have waited as Sansa suggested as she was tired and distracted herself.
The Night King, wights and White Walkers was supposed to represent global warming according to George R.R. Martin. With 100K wights doing the dirty work, there really wasn’t a need for the White Walkers to do much of the fighting. Especially since the Night King was aware that they knew if they took out a White Walker, all associated wights would fall, it’s smarter to not have them engage in the battle and overwhelm the living. The NK was not the ultimate story as it is Game of Thrones after all ( the show). Even if we argue that the book is ASOIAF – then that’s Jon Snow / Aegon Targaryen and not really about the NK.
Additionally, everyone is talking crap about the battle strategy but what were the living supposed to do? The Dothraki’s specialty is open field fighting. Robert Baratheon said it in season 1. The only real issue that I had with that scene was what were they going to do if Melisandre hadn’t shown up, because all they had were those aurochs. It’s a little unclear if they would have charged without their weapons being set on fire (hopefully not). Jon & Dany were supposed to hang back because the NK had a dragon as well and they were supposed to draw him out. I’ve seen people say they should have light the trenches from the start. The NK could have put that out pretty quickly as he did. Also saw people say that they should have just stayed in the castle. Um – the NK had a dragon – that’s a terrible plan besides the fact that how would they have all fit with the Dothraki, Unsullied, Vale, etc.
If Jon tried to fight the NK, he likely would have gotten killed. He often needed to be saved. The NK needed to be stabbed in a very specific place (the exact spot where the dragonglass was inserted) to be destroyed and who else could do that except a trained assassin.
Jon was still Azor Ahai and his heritage played a huge role in the story. He saved the world from darkness by killing Dany and bringing forth Drogon to destroy the Iron Throne. It was prophesized that Rhaegar’s bloodline would yield the prince that was promised and it did. People just assumed the darkness was the NK, but it was Dany and the throne.
Bran worged in the episode 3 and 6. He worged in the Long Night but they just didn’t show the audience what he was doing after he found the NK. He was watching to see where the chess pieces where. Bran is emotionless and robotic. He was not telling Theon “he was a good man. Thank You” because he was being sincere. D&D tell you after the show that he sensed Theon was giving up. He also needed to buy Arya time. Something that it is suspected that Jon is doing as well. Even with closed captioning on, HBO will not confirm if Jon is yelling “Go” or not, but that’s what it sounds like when he is yelling at the dragon at the entrance to the Godswood. We can debate on if Bran is good or evil because it is kind of unclear if he can see much of the future or is it just in flashes. Also, is he of the mindset that he should just not intervene much.
Bran also worgs at the end to find Drogon. D&D hint that Drogon may have headed east to Valyria to Kimvera with Dany’s body. Leaving it open ended enough to bring her back to life if they want to do a movie in the future like many HBO series.
The callbacks aren’t lazy writing; they are to remind the audience about specific storylines or references and nostalgia for the audience.
D&D film GoT like a movie – they prep the scripts for the whole season, do a table read with the cast, and film out of sequence to save money. People are complaining about the length of the season and number of episodes but I have to take up for them based on some interviews that I watched of GRRM. It was always going to be 8 seasons. When D&D were sent the books, some Hollywood exec wanted them to read them and convert to a screenplays (terrible idea). They had enough presence of mind to know that would never work. They went to him with the thought of a series. and he agreed. They wanted to do one book per season for a total of seven seasons. GRRM wanted like 13 seasons. They finally agreed on 8 seasons. GRRM told them he would be done with books and publish the books before the got to the relevant season. He told them he would be mortified if they passed him.
As we know, GRRM hasn’t published another book since 2011. They worked with him for a few days to get his major plot points but that’s all they have. This was never supposed to be an original story but an adaptation. They can get creative to a point but still have to end on a similar note. Couple that with increased popularity of the show means increased salary of the actors, increased budget needed for special effects means fewer episodes. They tried to break it up in a meaningful way for viewers with longer, but few episodes, but people still complained. Make it make sense. At this point, even if GRRM did come out with the next book he is still behind where they are. They really were in a no win situation. They had no source material just an outline yet people are telling them they should have gone longer. Of course HBO told them they can do more seasons because they make billions of dollars on GoT. Yes billions with licensing, subscriptions and merchandising. But the scheduling, shooting, and showrunning is consuming so they passed. 10 years of their lives have been spent on this and I thank them for it as it has been glorious.
People asking – HBO submitted the Iron Throne for directing & writing. I’m sure it has a lot to do with that episode breaking multiple HBO records for viewership / ratings. Also, although A Knight of Seven Kingdoms was rated highly on IMDB, Brian Cogman admitted that D&D edited and helped him out tremendously with that episode. For example, he had Davos talk about Shireen and they suggested that he have the little girl with the soup. They also wrote most of the Jenny of Old Stones song.
I mean that she’d had enough “awesome, whoohoo, rah-rah, go Arya”-type kills. The biggest bad of ’em all seemed gratuitous. Arya went from having me like B-| pretty quickly this season, unfortunately. Hurts to say I don’t like her as much anymore. And killing the main person on your list doesn’t necessarily need to involve “being consumed by hatred, anger, and desire for revenge at any cost.” If she had just sneaked in earlier and gotten it over with she still would’ve gone sailing in the end. I found her vengeance story satisfying. She created justice in a world where you do typically need to make your own. Stabbing the NK felt as if it were just another one to her; she still had her sights set on Cersei.
The color order doesn’t kill it, but you can tell that originally that wasn’t intended as a clue; it only referred to Arya murdering lots of people. There’s no real reason that it HAD to be her, other than that they decided she was ordained.
Wish Sapochnik had been able to kill more people, especially some who didn’t do much later anyway. Probably a mistake to divide the season into two halves/wars to be dealt with separately rather than interweaving them. If only the rest of the continent, all the way down to KL and Cersei, had had to contend with the Long Night. If the AotD represents something like climate change/environmental disaster, then lol at the notion of such a problem being solved in a single night by one group of people in one spot before it can impact everyone else. The title’s irony is that the game of thrones, humans’ political nonsense and petty squabbles–that’s all a silly distraction from what matters most. Human nature dictates that they’ll continually return to it and pose grave threats to one another as well. But geez, the difference between how it all played out and the multitude of mega-exciting possibilities everybody had been considering…it was just underwhelming…
The catspaw dagger had some significance to the story but never seemed particularly special to me.
Once again strongly concurred with the same people I cited earlier, including Monsieur Derp. (Although, Northern Breeze’s description of the great tragedy that befell poor Dany pretty much meshes with my grasp of it. I left a comment of great praise on Petra’s wonderful video on her.)
Bran as king does not make me very optimistic for the future of Westeros. Sansa was a bigger brat than Dany, Tyrion made a lousy advisor, etc.
May Kinvara raise Dany in her true form (i.e., the woman of the first 71 episodes! 😉
Mr Derp,
Sapochnik wouldn’t have directed 6 episodes across 3 seasons if he had actual serious issues with D&D though