Emilia Clarke recently sat down with Alex Morris of Rolling Stone for an expansive interview that addressed politics and feminism… and how these topics inform her performance as Daenerys Targaryen.
It seems that for Emilia Clarke, her view of Daenerys and of the responsibilities that come with playing such an iconic character have developed has her worldview has shifted. In her interview with Rolling Stone, Clarke discussed her burgeoning awareness of sexism and of its prevalence in her own life, but she refuted that notion that her somewhat frequent nude scenes on Game of Thrones compromise her (or her character’s) status as gender equality advocates.
“It doesn’t stop me from being a feminist,” she said. “Like, guess what? Yes, I’ve got mascara on, and I also have a high IQ, so those two things can be one and the same.”
Similarly, life in the wake of Brexit and the election of Donald Trump has cast Daenerys – a woman who rose from human chattel to Khaleesi and abolitionist – in a much more relevant light for Clarke.
“Women have been great rulers [throughout history],” she said. “And then for that to be a character that I’m known to play? That’s so fucking lucky. Anyone who seems to think that it’s not needed need only look at the political environment we’re all living in to be like, ‘Oh, no, it’s needed. It is needed.’ ”
On a slightly lighter note, Clarke also chatted about season 7 and teased some exciting developments. “It’s a really interesting season in terms of some loose ends that have been tied, some really satisfying plot points,” she said. “Some things where you’re like, ‘Oh, my God. I forgot about that!'”
With season 7 only a few weeks away and the final season due to air in a year, the reality of a post-Khaleesi life is beginning to sink in for Clarke.
“It makes me emotional to think about,” she said. “It’s my beginning, middle and end- the single thing that has changed me most as an adult … There’s going to be a shake-up of my identity, I think. And I feel like I’m only going to understand what the last seven years has been when we stop.”
She also played Rolling Stone‘s Q&A game, The First Time, which offered some quirky insights into her personal life.
Hodor
Lovely article on a lovely person. I continually see reasons to be happy they cast her over an/the alternative. She’s like a blast of HAPPY in your face whenever she’s on camera in an interview or appearance. I hope she’s allowed to shine in season 7 with the writing. Too much of her “throne sitting persona” makes people think she’s dull. 😉
She just has a star persona.
And when shes on screen, it doesn’t matter who is in the shot with her, all your eyes and attention go to her.
And she just radiates happiness. I always have a goofy grin on my face when I see an interview of hers.
So sad to hear her father passed away 3 weeks before shooting season 7.
I have a feeling we will be seeing her best work in season 7, if those shots of her on Dragonstone are an indication.
It was such a in depth incredible Interview, Rolling Stone did pretty damn well. Emilia has such a vibrant and happy personality it’s pretty contagious, I just wish they would let her bring out a bit of her own personality on screen for Dany, just a little slither.
Really sad about her father, it must of been hard for her to jump into one project to another not really getting much time to say goodbye or mourn her father. From previous Interviews she talked about her father a lot and always seemed to look up to him highly.
Clob,
You know how much mocking that goes in regards with reciting titles…but what people forget is that she is the only ruler we have seen hold court that many times. .
Dany held more court sessions in meereen for the six to seven months she had been there than Robert ever did in his 13 year old reign..
I do wish that she gets the scenes and material where she can perform well .she should get an emmy just for keeping her eyebrows in check while playing daenerys. .
I was just making a comment in other thread what are the chances of getting this interview into a thread and I see this interview posted ..so i guess the chances were pretty great ..
Talking about emilia and her radiatind energy and happiness ..I always like to see some of Emilia’s interviews when iam sad or disturbed …seeing her laugh and smile will uplift me..
I noticed Emilia also referred to her saying she filmed a lot more scenes in Belfast than usual as a spoiler but I wonder what she meant by that. Is she talking about inside CGI scenes, lot’s on interior scenes in Belfast or filming in the country side? I know she did the dragon scenes but she also posted a picture and video of her in Belfast on a grassy hill with really bad wind conditions, so who knows how long she was there for.
That’s a good question. It seemed like she filmed so much in Spain that there wouldn’t be that much elsewhere. I suppose that there would be some though if ‘Winter is here’ and they wanted her in some more appropriate conditions… Like you said though, cgi work and interior scenes could have been a bulk of her work in the area.
I love her. She is the perfect Dany, and she is just so good. Whenever she is on screen she captures me.. even if she is just reciting her damn titles, which I think ARE BAD ASS!!!!!!!!!
Mel,
Well she will be having lot of throne room and war council scenes at dragonstone…and she is going to be having lead many battles in the coming season and this season she will be having a lot more screentime on top of drogon than the last two seasons which will also mean time spending inside studio
I can’t stop looking at the shot at the top of this thread
There is so much emotion in her eyes.
They need to milk that moment for all its worth, and seeing as how we’ve seen 80 stills and trailer shots from it, I bet they will 😉
She never fails to put a smile on my face 🙂
She’s so adorable <3
We got the S6 premiere episode title 17 days before the premiere last year. Tomorrow is 17 days until S7…
Really? I heard about it last summer but that’s so sad. Tough part of the life losing the ones you love, we’ll going through it.
Dee Stark,
It’s good like one or two times but then it gets boring and repetitive. I understand she likes it, earned it but still a bit boring.
She’s such a bright light. I love reading her interviews, her positivity is endearing. 😊
Jack Bauer 24,
And did you enjoy the interview with Emilia?
I love Emilia but at this point the season just needs to start
I’m not much of a fan of Daenerys but I started to like her more in S6. I do hope her scenes include the tender ones as well (like those with ser Jorah and Tyrion last season)… I feel the actress’s performance is the strongest in those scenes and we actually see her vulnerable side in those scenes (something she really lacked in S3 for example). And I hope they won’t recite her titles all over again…
I think this is going to be her best season yet.
Ah, Emilia! She remains absolutely lovely, and as relentlessly cheerful as ever. This particular interview with her was very insightful – I really enjoyed reading her thoughts about politics, the challenges facing women in the film industry, and the way that the role of Daenerys Targaryen has changed her life.
I hadn’t realized that her father had passed away so close to when she was scheduled to begin shooting Season 7. I’m sure that was an incredibly emotional time for her, but it seems like her innately positive outlook and a strong sense of perspective helped her persevere through a very difficult time.
On a more upbeat note, that story from the embedded video in which she recounts her first time meeting Jason Momoa is fantastic, and sounds very much in keeping with the way that dude approaches life. No wonder everyone in the cast and crew misses him so much.
Geralt of Rivia,
I like it. lol
For me, it would be my favorite season if she actually experiences some failures and if we actually see her vulnerable. She was one of the luckier characters through the story and if this season will be only Daenerys being “badass” (a term I really dislike), I’m sure I will return to my dislike for her again.
For Daenerys to be so popular amongst the fandom, she truly is one of the more criminally misunderstood characters. This season will catapult her into a position of power like she’s never had before. Of course she’s been a leader of the Dragon’s Bay, but her landing in Dragon Stone begins her conquest for what she truly desires. I’m sure this season will be one of her greatest as far as development goes. It’s go big or go home.
Emilia is lovely as always. She’s one of the most beautiful women on television.
I think she will benefit a lot from finally being integrated into the main storyline,
because in previous seasons, we really only visit Dany at points where we need to move the plot forward, hence us not getting enough scenes of her being vulnerable or emotional.
But we know shes getting way more screentime this season.
Looking back on season 6, she did have some amazing moments, like 6×5 and 6×10 (the scene between her and peter was so beautifully acted)
Daenerys has had plenty of failures. Basically, she has paralleled Jon strongly in this regard: Daeny’s idealism regarding slavery caused her to overreact upon taking Meereen, and then led her to underestimate just how much the Tories hated her reforms. It’s just like Jon regarding the Wildlings and the Nationalists at the Wall.
Both Jon’s and Daeny’s failures (as well as Tyrion’s, Bran’s, Arya’s and possibly Sansa’s) set up their “Phoenix Rising” arcs last year. At this point, the “character evolving” stuff needs to be wrapped up: we need to see what 5+ seasons of character evolution is going to generate in the big finales now. Oh, we have time for one or two more “revelations”: the revelations about Jon’s parents and what Ned did to protect Jon probably is going to have parallel ramifications for Daenerys once she understands the why of her eldest brother’s actions.
As we’re at “strong women” theme, let me share a story with you. In LFU group, someone made a post if there are any GoT fans there and one of my fellow admins who dislikes GoT (but still watches it) made a comment like this:
I find the show to be too violent, misogynistic, cynical and male-driven. Women are objectified as either whores or power-driven royalty. It’s a complete fantasy world and is loosely based on “medieval times”. There are dragons and witches, so GRRM is not wholly adhering to historical facts. He just happens to cherry pick what themes he enjoys – pedophilia and violence against women and children for “historical accuracy” is BS in my opinion.
As much as I respect her and enjoy working alongside her, I really got mad at her when I read this statement because I believe GoT is not misogynistic at all. Sure it doesn’t hold back when it comes to violence, but the show actually develops the idea of strong women in the world where women are generally worth less. Cersei, Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Yara, Ellaria, Olenna, Margaery, Catelyn… those women all posssess (or possessed) a significant amount of internal strength and are not objectified at all, at least not in my eyes.
I really hope I’m not the only one of this opinion but this statement really got on my nerves… well, I got to know from her that she only watches the show because of Kristofer Hivju who is her second cousin.
If you want to know, this was a response (one of them actually ) I wrote back:
Monica, yes, it’s your opinion but some of the stuff you said is wrong… GoT does not develop the idea of misoginy. Sure, it presents it to us but storywise it fights against it, heavily indicating this Westeros system is cruel and wrong and most of the characters try to improve everything… but of course, it’s different than LOST as it is the story about power struggle and characters learning to play a game. And sadly a lot of things you see in the series was true in real world… and still is true. But overall, I don’t remember a “misogynistic scene” that was meant to be approved by audience. They were all meant to be dark and gritty, the horrible things that happen to main characters and we’re meant to feel uncomfortable. Like I said in another comment, it’s like how horror movies are made with purpose to make us scared.
You know… about Sansa’s wedding night, people were outraged even though the writers spared us basically everything. But one reviewer pointed out the hypocrisy… how Theon got tortured and emasculated and stuff and no one got enraged about that. And on the other hand, you have Sansa who knew Ramsay will have to consumate his marriage… sure, a horrible act. But why did it happen? Because Ramsay was a psychopath and that’s what he would do in that situation. It’s not like the writers wanted us to enjoy Ramsay forcing himself on Sansa.
HelloThere,
This!!! except the screen time part because I am spoiler free… but that makes me excitedddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
I AM SO DAMN HYPE YOU GUYS
Wimsey,
love this!
Wimsey,
Like I said above, a couple tender and vulnerable scenes in her story is enough for me. I did notice her failures in previous seasons though… and her flaws when it comes to personality. I just don’t want to see another S3 where she was completely untouchable.
The REALLY interesting thing here is that she is done filming the newest season, but she refers to dani as a great ruler, and in otherwise positive ways.
Can we put to bed the theory that she is gonna have a herl turn this season now?
Lord Parramandas,
While I do agree that we need to have more emotional and tender scenes of dany where she shows how much she actually cares about things..You do realize that season 3 came out after season 2 where she was literally at the low point of her life she was a begger with nothing to offer ..and after season 3 came season 4 and 5 setbacks….
As a stand alone season when you look at season 3 ..she had the strongest season only Jamie and brienne having such strong season next to her ..
Optimus Crime,
One can always hope ..
Jared,
It happened around the time of Emmy’s in july or september…i remember reading a obituary from one of her father’s colleague …very sad moment for her and its more saddening to see her talk about it..
HelloThere,
Well by the time episode airs we would have seen the entire scene through promotional photos and videos.
dragonbringer,
Well, her S3 story was just a series of succesful conquests while suffering no failures. Everything went positive for her and I found that story quite dull… and many fans worshipped her as “perfect character” which was another thing that turned me off… this is GoT where all characters are flawed. On the other hand, S4 and S5 offered more insight into her and especially her flaws and actual obstacles in her path.
Dee Stark,
I literally almost fell asleep. 😀 Its in her own right to have them. 😉
Wimsey,
Daenerys will hopefully condemn what Rhaegar did on the show. She thinks it was romantic in the books. It was perhaps in a certain light but what they did (Rhaegar more than Lyanna) was so irresponsible. I like him like Lyanna, can’t look beyond problems they caused by their actions.
If leaks are right.
There is a war to win. There won’t be much a time to have large discussions about Jon’s heritage, what Ned did or did not do. Should it be adressed, it should but there is the great war to fight. We’re already seeing progress of the characters, this not something for the end moment. they’re constantly evolving. We can see how Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon or Arya are different
Leaks.
Lord Parramandas,
Season 3 was in a certain aspects better, because the way she gets herself army, how she freed slaves and how she started to liberate places.
Season 4 and 5 were to many dull, because it contained only typical ruling, books are obviously going much deeper in this, because show doesn’t have a enough time for it. Still this arc itself felt … I don’t know weird a bit and not moving much further.
In her personality being badass Queen, who rarely shows any emotions also put many people off. Once Tyrion got to Meereen, she had someone to interact and share that burden with. Valuable lesson because when you look at Jon. He never did that, ruling and getting experiences in this. Only few episodes of being in action and not much of aspects King has to deal with, unlike in the books.
New article on LF/Aiden
http://ew.com/tv/2017/06/28/game-of-thrones-littlefinger-arya/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter
“I finished last season on a promising note by laying my cards on the table — at least to Sansa,” Gillen says. “I was [sowing seeds of doubt about Jon Snow] throughout my appearances in season 6, and, yeah, that will continue. It’s pretty obvious what my game is there. We’re playing out that final exchange in the Great Hall in Winterfell. But the same time my character is becoming quite aware that Sansa is becoming as bright as me and just as wary of my manipulations of her. They’re onto each other. They use each other. They enjoy each other. And they keep a lot from each other. There are all kinds of mixed things going on with Littlefinger and his relationship with Sansa, so watching her grow in stature is quite enjoyable.”
Best not to make a post out of it. We know where that’s going HAHAHAHA
I think Emilia is a lovely young woman but her character leaves me a bit cold. This series I hope to see her meet up with my favourite hero so they can both give us a smile and literally let their hair down😚
Geralt of Rivia,
From what I see from “casual folk” comments (FB and stuff), many watch GoT because they want their favorite characters to be “heroes” and “badass” so surely they enjoyed her S3 story when she was untouchable. I personally enjoy more the complex approach to the characters, them encountering ups and downs and having vulnerable moments as well. GoT is not a show about “heroes and villains”, at least not in my eyes.
May I ask what she would condemn? I doubt it was a kidnapping, which is the prevailing Occam’s razor gossip. Rhaegar was a Targ being a Targ and Lyanna didn’t come across as one to avoid risky adventure. Yes, it was irresponsible but what’s new for the former ruling class? The Mad King was the lunatic who needed to be overthrown. Rhaegar was just being a foolish adulterous Targ prince who made the Baratheons and Starks really jealous and initiated the infamous RR tipping point.
Jack Bauer 24,
It will start when it starts. Your red carpet and preview posts are getting really tiring, just sayin.
Lord Parramandas,
You can’t really separate her season 3 storyline and say she was untouchable, because it played into a much bigger arc, where she struggled to hold onto the power she obtained.
Season 3 was just part of the story, and it was just the particular part where she was on her rise to power.
And We had 2 whole seasons which dealt with the repercussions of her decisions and her struggles to rule.
Its all one big story.
Dee Stark,
Oh god. I don’t want to hear about WeaselFinger. Can’t somebody throw him off a laddaaahhh? Or make the bad man fly through the Moon Door? Turn him into a wight?
For me, he ruins Sansa’s character. He’s framed her, pimped her, perved her, betrayed her, and deluded her -and still she lets him poison her mind. She’s watched him commit or admit to at least three kilings (,Joffrey, Dontos, Aunt Lysan, Jon aw
HelloThere,
Lord Parramandas,
Wow, what a perfect letter, glad you responded. Did she reply back?
That plot point she thinks the audience forgot about? I hope it’s Gendry.. #StillRowing
Ten Bears,
I AGREEEEEEEEE
Lord Parramandas,
I completely disagree with her, in fact, my sister and I were watching “Book of the Stranger” yesterday and the scene with Loras and Marg, where Marg is the stronger of the two, my sister commented about the strength of the women in the show and how some of the guys just, well.. haha
This isn’t what the article is about, but just wanted to comment to you. 🙂 Great response to her.
Geralt of Rivia,
1. What did mean when you wrote that you…
“literally almost fell asleep. 😀 Its in her own right to have them.”
2. Has Dany repeated all of her titles that often? In what episodes? I’ve heard lots of other characters called her the “Mother of Dragons.” I’ve heard her threaten to take what is hers “with fire and blood.” I’ve heard her tell those bleeting horselords they were unfit to lead the Dothraki before turning their clubhouse into an Easy-Bake Oven.
But I don’t recall her repeatedly reciting a boring litany of all of her titles. Where can I look?
This was my last reply to her… she stopped responding after that. She can be a bit stubborn but like I said above, I generally really respect her. I’ve been working alongside her in LFU admin team for 8 months now (and she’s been an admin for even longer) and she brings great value to the group, especially when it comes to spreading positivity, expanding the perspective on characters, and her very mature responding to negative people in the group. But yes, this really annoyed me as she seems very narrow minded when it comes to GoT… I somehow got the vibe she wants to dislike the show and feels personally offended by it.
Dee Stark,
Oh LF, the one true king of the ashes… 🙂
Dee Stark,
Aidens description of this is infinitely more tolerable than Sophie’s lol….
I think all of us are just on edge waiting for season 7, lol.
Yes, sure. That’s why this statement really frustrated me… and even more because she is a person I generally get along very well.
On a side note: You’re already at “Book of a Stranger”? I still have 14 episodes left… but tomorrow, my LOST journey comes to an end, so then I will have full time to watch GoT. Oh, and I’m nearly finished with the exams as well (passed all of them), with the last one happening next week.
Lord Parramandas,
Interesting work conversation. What is LFU? LittleFinger University? Least Frequently Used cache corporation?
I can only imagine how your coworker viewed the Jaime/Cersei/Joff scene. I often wonder how folks who cry “misogyny!” would rewrite the tale to satisfy their ideals…
Hodors Bastard,
LOST FANS UNITE! – A FB community dedicated to the TV show LOST. I’m one of the admins there.
Jaime’s girl,
Agreed!
Jaime’s girl,
yes!! 🙂
I love Emilia.Her interviews are always so enjoyable and she comes across as such a nice person.Also I think this might be Dany’s best season since season 3 but even better cause she will have some emotional scenes.On another note Dany looks extra pretty in the pictures for episode 3 and I approve of that decision.
Season starts in 18 days unless you’re suggesting otherwise?
http://ew.com/tv/2017/06/28/game-of-thrones-showrunners-season-7/
New D&D interview
OT, but someone mentioned how much Jason Momoa is missed by everyone who works on GoT. This is from January, so apologies to anyone who’s seen it already. It’s really lovely.
https://www.facebook.com/Designspiration/videos/1326108597451982/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED
HelloThere,
This is a really good interview.
Interesting that D&D initially expected this season to be a slower paced, table setting for the final season.
Although they definitely have huge battles planned, I think we will see a lot more character interactions and development than we would expect looking @ the trailer.
Im too hyped rn
I’ve been waiting patiently for a new post about that D&D interview… but yeah, it’s a pretty good one. I like their take on the Torienne scenes.
Jack Bauer 24,
This is what you wrote “I love Emilia but at this point the season just needs to start” hence my reply ‘it starts when it starts’
It starts in 18 days. Are you suggesting it’s been delayed.
Emilia Clarke is such a charming person ! Always nice to hear from her.
I couldn’t agree more with her on the importance of portraying female rulers. It is not the stuff of science fiction; there have always been, are and will be (hopefully more and more) women in position of power and to give them exposure, including in an entirely fictional setting, helps legitimise and “normalise” them, so to speak.
This is perhaps where my take diverges slightly from Ms. Clarke’s, if I may. Her statement that “women have been great rulers (throughout history)” is a bit too broad for me : some women have been great rulers, others have been utterly dreadful, others have been meh, etc. A bit like their male counterparts… Who would have thunk ? It is almost as if women were regular human beings 😉
As such, it is important to show female “rulers” in their diversity, ranging from the talented to the lamentable, from the well-intentioned to the devious. And I have to say both the books and the show have done a pretty great job at that. ASoIaF‘s women of power come in all shades of abilities, personalities and motivation.
Cersei, the embittered ruler (male counterpart : half of Tywin) : always resented being a woman, views her accession to the throne as a personal revenge and retribution, views the people as an unruly mass to be tamed, is too angry and humourless to grasp the finesse of politicking but shows a visceral understanding of the value of spectacular brutality in feudal politics.
Olenna, the privileged ruler (male counterpart : the other half of Tywin) : never experienced any real hardship or faced any genuine and violent opposition (until recently), never questioned or doubted her own legitimacy, views and uses the distribution of money and resources as the be-all-and-end-all of policy-making, has little to no concern for the people but has no animosity towards them.
Margaery, the PR ruler (male counterpart : Renly) : did everything her granny told her to, viewed power as a nice thing to possess in order to advance her family’s interests, understood the people had to be pleased and satisfied in order to maintain civil peace.
Daenerys, the dutiful ruler (male counterpart : part Jon, part Stannis) : appears to hold power mostly as a form of tribute to her lost loves’ kingly ambitions (her brothers, her husband, her son), cares deeply for the people but at times fails to understand (or listen to) them, shows remarkable abilities as a leader but subpar ones as a ruler, has demonstrated talent for crisis management but has so far achieved little in terms of institution-building, wants to do good.
Ellaria and the Sands, the anti-rulers (male counterpart : Robert Baratheon) : did not really want to take the “throne” but simply desired to kill the person who was sitting on it, appear to have had little to no political project beyond her own personal revenge, use violence both liberally and somewhat senselessly.
None of them is perfect; all of them are interesting.
Yet another interview in which the writer seems to think that the character’s name is Khaleesi. Never THE Khaleesi, never Daenerys Targaryen. They really ought to assign people who actually follow the show!
Although nothing in six seasons has substantially changed my first impression that Emilia Clarke is the weakest actor amongst the principal roles, she does seem to be an awfully nice, down-to-Earth person with whom one would like to have a beer and rant about politics.
I hope there is some change in her character this season. 1-3 I was invested in her character. 4-6 I was not. Dany has been my least favorite part of this show since season 4. Largely, I feel this is due to stalling for time. No one has ever been under any illusions that her story is in Meereen. But now the time has finally come for her to come to Westeros and interact with other characters. I am looking forward to this and am hoping this re-invigorates not just her character but Tyrion’s too who likewise in my opinion has been stale since the death of Tywin.
Part of this will be up to Emilia Clarke though. I will be curious to see if she changes anything about the way she portrays the character. I hope so.
I’m not a fan of Dany as a character since ASOS/S3 however I have a lot of time for Emelia as a person, she’s very warm, friendly and intelligent. I know she got a lot of criticism but I also enjoyed her performance as Sarah Connor in the latest Terminator movie.
All these speeches about woman power and everything but what actually happens is theresa may :/
That’s wonderful!! Good for you!!! Smarty Pants!
Yes… I have been trying to finish quick because My sister and I are watching Season 6 Episodes 8, 9, and 10 with a friend and have that happening on july 7 so need to catch up by then! I usually do not have time to watch on the weekends because im busy and doing things!
HelloThere,
I agree.
dragonbringer,
What you said that reminds me how when I first got involved in the show whenever I was feeling down I would YT a Jon scene and it made me happy.
Did not know Clarke lost her father. Bummer, and she’s so young too. I won’t be able to watch her on this season without thinking on that and feeling sad at times 🙁
LOL!!!!!!!!!
Jon Snowed,
Did you see her in Me before You, she was excellent.
Chilli,
Pfft. Our Jack doesn’t bother himself with trivial matters such as that!
Scrolls down a few more posts….OK maybe he does 🙂
Lord Parramandas,
I know a few people I’ve recommended the show to could not even get past the first couple episodes because of the the graphic nudity/sex scenes. I had to look past these scenes myself because I normally would be put off by this type of inclusion. Maybe these kinds of portrayal of women was enough to put her off especially if she’s not big on the genre.
ACME,
Great post 🙂
ygritte,
Very kind of you to say. Thanks an awful lot 😉
Lord Parramandas,
I understand but I do like mix of being a strong, independent character and proper development. Season 4 and 5 showed the differences between mother and a ruler. I get that but season 3 also was akey for her to embrace on a journey to end the slavery. I guess, it will depend from people to people.
Hodors Bastard,
The whole point outfit. Him taking off with Lyanna was irresponsible when you have a wife, two kids. Rhaegra was groomed to be a Prince. Mad King was a terrible King but it still doesn’t excuse what Rhaegar did. far too many people are romanticizing their relationship but the truth is it was a one big blunder. Only good thing out of it was the birth of Jon.
Leaks.
Ten Bears,
There is just so many of these titles but she has right to use themn. She has earned them but the sheer amount of them.
Missandei is recititing her titles, not Daenerys herself. She likes to hear them, ego boosting and all rulers do have an ego.
This is an overly simplistic way of looking at it. What you are omitting is: how irresponsible would it have been for Rhaegar to not do what he did? He needed another child. Clearly Rhaegar had some inkling of what was coming, and he clearly recognized that his family was going to be in the center of it.
There are no moral absolutes in Martin’s universe: everything is down to cost-benefit. All of the stories revolve around this: the main characters always are wrestling with options that seem “right” for one set of reasons and “wrong” for another set of reasons. What we are going to learn is that Rhaegar basically behaved similarly to Ned Stark: he took on public dishonor in order to do something that upheld private honor but that would never be recognized as such.
Now, you might say: “well, Rhaegar should have waited until his suspicions were confirmed.” However, for every person who says that, there is one person who will say: “If he thought this was going to happen, then why did he wait to take action?” if Rhaegar does wait. (Of course, 99% of them are the same people, so this is a very safe statement!)
Dany’s titles are honestly nothing compared to the official titles held by real-world monarchs. Queen Elizabeth now holds 16 different regnal titles, one for each of the current Commonwealth realms.
King of Spain’s title is as follows: King of Spain, King of Castile, of León, of Aragon, of the Two Sicilies* (Naples and Sicily), of Jerusalem*, of Navarre, of Granada, of Toledo, of Valencia, of Galicia, of Majorca, of Seville, of Sardinia*, of Córdoba, of Corsica*, of Murcia, of Menorca, of Jaén, of the Algarves*, of Algeciras, of Gibraltar*, of the Canary Islands, of the East Indies* and West Indies* and of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea*; Archduke of Austria*; Duke of Burgundy*, of Brabant*, of Milan*, of Athens*, of Neopatras* (New Patras) and of Limburg*; Count of Habsburg*, of Flanders*, of Tyrol*, of Roussillon* and of Barcelona; Lord of Biscay and of Molina.
You should also check out the Thai King’s titles. The last King’s title would have made Dany cry
Wimsey,
You are very right to emphasise that Rhaegar may have been motivated by a sense of duty and, as such, felt honour-bound to have another child with an incarnation of ice.
However, the way in which he went about it is thoroughly reprehensible. He did not need to publicly humiliate his wife to achieve his goal. He did not need to abandon his children and their mother to the whim of a man he knew to be dangerously insane. He did not need to “abduct” Lyanna in secret (he could have encouraged her to leave a note explaining her decision to her family). He did not need to remain in hiding while his child-to-be’s grandfather and uncle were being massacred by his unstable father. He did not need to participate in a battle that could have led him to fight and kill the only two remaining members of Lyanna’s family.
His motivation may have been “pure” or dutiful. But I fear his methods were anything but.
And I am sorry to ask but I fail to identify what public dishonour Ned faced as a result of presenting Jon as his bastard.
We have seen no indication that fathering an illegitimate child is a source of dishonour for Westerosi men. Ned was neither shunned nor shamed for claiming to have had a bastard. The only two people who suffered public humiliation due to Jon’s alleged parentage were Jon himself and Catelyn.
If Ned was dishonoured, I believe it was on a purely private level, haunted as he was by the knowledge that his lie was causing pain, shame and heartbreak to two persons he genuinely loved.
Again: we don’t know that. We know next to nothing about what Rhaegar knew from the Prophecy. We know next to nothing about whether Elia was in on the plan. (We do know that she couldn’t provide anymore children, so this is not absurd.) We know next to nothing about whether Rhaegar came to think that Lyanna herself was important to the Prophecy.
We do know several other things, however. We get zero indication that Rhaegar was a phillanderer, and we are told that he treated his wife kindly. We know that he was an individual who generally was aware of his responsibilities and duties. We know that he paid as much attention to philosophy and learning as he did to military matters. In short, we know that Rhaegar is not the sort of person for whom this action was unsurprising.
People treat this as if he just went on a fling: but I will be very surprised if we do not learn that, in the end, this was “the” way to fulfill the Prophecy. Moreover, we probably will learn that Rhaegar thought that the alternative to fulfilling the prophecy was disastrous.
Put another way, in the end I think that we’ll realize that Rhaegar did the least irresponsible thing that he could do. (Put yet another way: this is not Tolkien! 😀 )
More than one character points out that they consider Ned’s hangups with honor to be hypocritical given that he fathered a bastard. Moreover, forcing his wife to put up with the child effectively made him look (at best) callous and (at worst) emotionally abusive (insofar as either of these concepts would be used in such a society). Ned himself used the world “shame” in regards to fathering Jon.
Chill Pill,
Hell, Alexander Siddig’s full name would make her cry:
Siddig El Tahir El Fadil El Siddig Abderrahman Mohammed Ahmed Abdel Karim El Mahdi!
😛 😛 😛
Wolfish,
Emilia’s may not be that big like siddig but it is longer..here’s her full name
Emilia Isabelle Euphemia Rose Clarke
How many of us remember a character from season who was in KL for exactly the same purpose that missandei is doing with dany…
Yes missandei recites her titles but dany doesn’t listen to them when she is free and want to hear about awesome she is .so she makes missandei recites her titles …
She does it when dany holds the court …it was same when we saw with Robert and Ned in KL hold courts…tyrion introducing tywin to the mountain tribes ..
Like I said its not dany’s fault she cares about her dury and holds court regularly…
Only aegon the conqueror has so many titles which should say something about how much dany is achieved ..
I am more than willing to believe that Rhaegar was sincerely convinced not fulfilling the prophecy would lead to catastrophic disaster and destruction. However, I honestly struggle to persuade myself that said prophecy included Ellia’s public humiliation and abandonment, Lyanna’s fake abduction, Rickard’s and Brandon’s horrific deaths and an all-out war against the Prince that Was Promised’s maternal family. That seems a tad too specific to me 😉
I would find more believable to assume Rhaegar, genuinely certain he had to father a fire-and-ice messiah, dug deep into Northern mythos and stumbled upon the Bael the Bard legend which he then decided to ape, hoping it would help him fulfil the ice part of the equation.
One of the most interesting aspects of the literary use of prophecies, in my eyes, is the “freedom”, so to speak, characters have to react to them : how they decide to interpret them, how they might attempt to avert them, how they can be tempted to ignore them, how they choose to help materialise them. The more precise the prophecy, the less agency the characters have. Whatever the letter of the Prince that Was Promised prophecy might have been, I would be tempted to assume it was vague enough so as to leave ample room for Rhaegar to express his artistic creativity 😛
But are these accusations of hypocrisy and callousness really unwarranted, unfairly levied against Ned ?
Ned was a hypocrit. Not for fathering a bastard while defending the notions of decency and honour but for advocating the value of transparency, celebrating the necessity of telling the truth while lying systematically for more than a decade to every single human being he interacted with.
Some aspects of Ned’s behaviour were callous and emotionally abusive. I cannot fathom why he did not tell his wife the truth after getting to know her better. Catelyn was not attached to Robert Baratheon in any way, shape or form and thus she had no incentive to denounce Jon to him; furthermore, she would have had no reason to resent Jon’s paternal lineage on principle since the Tullys did not have any visceral or historical hatred towards the Targaryens; finally, her “Family, Duty, Honour” mindset would probably have made her prone to caring for her nephew by marriage.
Ned holding on to the certitude that the devoted mother of his five children could not be trusted with the truth of Jon’s identity was, in a way, callous. Ned making Catelyn believe she had to cohabit with the living, breathing proof of his betrayal and depriving Jon of what might have been a form of motherly affection in the process was, to an extent, emotionally abusive.
In a strange, paradoxical way, the nature and content of the “public” dishonour Ned was subjected to were justified. He was what people accused him of being, though not for the reasons they assumed. As such, I fail to see Ned as unfairly exposed to public ridicule or sanction. Jon had to live with the stigma of illegitimacy in spite of it being underserved and Catelyn had to bear the shame of adultery though it was false. Conversely, Ned’s dishonour was of his own making and, at its root, it was all true.
ACME,
I agree – but I think that assumes he has a 21 century understanding of child development and the importance of communication in a relationship. I am not sure he would have noticed the effect Catelyn’s hate had on Jon (and thinking about it, its a wonder Jon didn’t turn out the same as Ramsey, given how he was treated by Roose) I also think being of his time he would have assumed Cat would accept the story, being a good and obedient wife, and not really understanding what bringing jon into the home would have meant to her. Not saying this all absolves him, but it might be more understandable given the time.
I wonder what would have happened if Ned revealed the truth to Cat, Jon and the world after Robert died. Lyannas fear would disappear with his death so there was no reason to keep the promise any longer (unless Stannis and Renly decided to take up the charge, I suppose…) We would have a different story, in a different universe. Wonder how that would play out.
Interesting read, as always.
I always thought ‘honorable’ was a hypocritical term applied to Ned as well. His most honorable deed was for his dead sister (“Promise me, Ned” gets me every time) and protecting Jon with a lie.
I feel for both Ned and Cat though. Cat deserved to know the truth about Jon. It might have drawn Ned and her closer, imho, but who knows if Jon would have been treated better as a result? We could tell that Ned struggled with this issue as he brooded in the WF godswood. Perhaps it influenced many subsequent decisions as well as Jon matured. But can you imagine what would have happened if just a hint of Jon’s parentage got out during those turbulent, reactive post-RR years? Jon would have been targeted and House Stark would have been tainted. (Heck, Jon may have been secretly sent to Illyrio’s Pentos home as well!)
Can you imagine the tension at times between Cat and Ned, with Ned’s lie/promise convoluting and constricting their essence? (Prophesy or not, we deserve to know more truths regarding R+L. We’re missing something, imho)
Since we’re on the topic of hypocrisy…
How do you view the opening scene/chapter with Ned and his children? I believe this entire tale started with a bit of hypocrisy. Gared/Will had somehow gotten south of the wall (can you imagine what he must have done in his crazed state to run south to the wall, get over/under it and run to Starkland?) and was treated as a Wall deserter by Ned. Gared/Will was the one person who had seen “winter” coming, the one thing that the Starks were vigilant of, but in his crazed state he couldn’t convey his information and to everyone he was a despicable deserter. As Wimsey would say, no one would have believed him anyway. At this point in Westeros history, the WW’s were a myth from another age.
I found it most intriguing that Honorable Ned used that misconstrued, beheading moment as a teachable moment for his kids. Is that irony? But that’s how the Stark tale starts…perhaps a metaphor for Ned’s internal hypocrisy? 🙂
dragonbringer,
Oh, I don’t mind her titles. As others have noted, real-world titles are even longer (and usually far more ridiculous).
As for Emilia’s real name: Wow, how very… English!
ash,
You are entirely right to point out that our understanding of child development is far more advanced than what we have been shown to be the norm in Westeros and, given those circumstances, Ned might not have anticipated the effects of Catelyn’s humiliation on Jon.
However, I cannot help but imagine the point before Jon understood Cat was not his mother. A time in his life, perhaps as a toddler, when Jon would see Robb go to the pretty red-haired lady for a hug or a kiss and, failing to grasp the difference between his and his brother’s respective situations, would also go to her, arms outstretched, expecting to receive the same marks of affection. And he would be denied. Ignored.
Ned must have witnessed a two-year-old Jon being rejected by the only mother-figure he had. He must have seen the heartwrenching look of incomprehension and sorrow on that child’s face.
This, to me, is when he should have done something.
Hodors Bastard,
I do feel for both Catelyn and Ned too. I probably should start most of my posts with a disclaimer : “I swear I like Ned”, “I swear I like Jon”, “I swear I like Arya”, etc. because I am often harsh in my criticism of characters, including those I appreciate. That, multiplied by my contrarian tendencies, usually gives birth to posts that feel quite vindictive or, at least, accusatory. Unfortunately, I am already so verbose that, if I start adding “on the other hand” segments to my messages… Dear Lord ! 😉
Ned was a great guy. He meant well, tried his best, was pretty smart and kind, never intended to cause hurt… But hurt he did cause. And (stupid) mistakes he did make. And flaws he did have ^^
I understand his anguish at the idea of Jon’s real lineage being discovered. It was entirely justified. Nevertheless, I cannot for the life of me fathom why he believed that letting Catelyn know the truth would be an unnecessary risk. Or any risk at all for that matter. Did he really think she would tell anyone ? That seems flabbergasting to me.
There was no significant loss associated with telling Cat the truth, only potential gains : gain of a more serene home atmosphere, gain of reinforced solidarity with his wife, gain of motherly affection for Jon (Catelyn had no reason not to adore the cupcake of sullen adorableness that was baby Jon if it were not for his alleged lineage).
The world at large would not have been any closer to finding out Ned’s nephew was a Targaryen had Catelyn been aware of it.
To be quite frank, the fact that no one in Westeros seemed to figure out who Jon truly was is mystifying in and of itself. Ned’s lie was transparent and anyone with even a microscopic trace of deductive reasoning skills should be able to see through it (seven hells, the overwhelming majority of the readership guessed it in 1996 ^^).
I think the most prominent of Ned’s flaws was his stubbornness. Once he had decided on a course of action, he would stick to it, come hell or high water. Regardless of any obvious counterargument that may present itself. Not the most adaptable of people, our Ned ! He had decided he should tell no one about Jon’s parents and he stuck to it, for better and, above all, for worse.
In re. Gared/Will’s beheading and Ned’s legacy.
It always seemed to me that our initial glimpse of Ned was one of George RR Martin’s best and cruellest jokes and not just because of the decapitation. The author introduced us to our first protagonist by highlighting how Ned was noble, intelligent, respectable, dutiful, reasonable… And 100% wrong ! ^^
That set the tone for the rest of the Stark patriarch’s journey and is partly why it never ceases to irritate me when his children quote him as if his word were gospel.
His disbelief in the deserter’s testimony, while understandable from a purely logical standpoint, also illustrated how disconnected from the his family’s true heritage and identity Ned was. He may have repeated ad nauseam that “Winter is coming” yet he did not understand what is really meant. What it genuinely implied and entailed. Ned viewed his House’s symbols as relics of a bygone era, similar to the statues in the Winterfell crypt; he paid his respects to them but did not “communicate” with them in the truest sense of the term, I believe. That is why he could not give any credence to Gared/Will’s tale. That is why he did not come up with the idea to adopt the direwolves pups (Jon did). That is why he agreed to kill Lady. That is why he did not live by his father’s teachings (“if you have to fight, win”).
Ned’s Stark identity was his own creation and, while it had the style of “real” Starkness, it lacked its substance. It is now his children’s job to give it some backbone.
Preach!
Every year, I poke folk on that question of Ned’s grand initial hypocrisy. I enjoy your insight. Thx.
Not seen that one Dee, I do feel her acting skills have improved considerably though since she started on thrones.