Director Miguel Sapochnik shared this photo today of the clapperboard for the Game of Thrones season finale, with the filming dated November 3rd. The director of photography will be Fabian Wagner, who also handled those duties last year for “Hardhome” and “The Gift.” It’s great to see this pair re-teaming for the season 6 finale.
Interestingly, the filming unit is labeled “White Walker Unit,” instead of the usual Wolf or Dragon Unit. During season 3’s filming, there was also a “Raven Unit” but the show resumed having two main units after that season. Now we’re back to three, it seems:
— Miguel Sapochnik (@MigSapochnik) November 8, 2015
In other news:
According to his newest Instagram post, the Mountain is coming back to Belfast. Hafþór Björnsson posted a photo from the Dubai airport and indicated by hashtags he might headed for the Belfast City Airport.
HODOR!
Consider me excited!!!
So the snow battle isn’t the finale….which means there’s something even bigger in 10?
Thor on his way to film Cleganebowl
GET hype
I like the sound of that 😛 White walker unit!
WHITE WALKER UNIT!!!!
UNITE!!! Watchers on the wall.
Last Episode ? I have a big smile on my face 🙂 can’t wait 🙂
White Walker Unit? Oh my gobrino.
Episode 10 and WWs – what could be better? 😀 Hopefully they will be south of the Wall, finally, at loooong last. I would be so happy if someone at Winterfell says “Winter has come.” 😀
& The Hype Train just left the station
White Walker Unit doesn’t necessarily mean there are WW in the episode. I think it’s just a code name for the unit. In fact, Sapochnik actually tweeting a picture with that written on the slate seems to suggest there aren’t.
Ravyn,
That has never been the case. Traditionally, the “big event”, whether it is a battle or a shocking twist, takes place in episode nine. Episode 10 has always been mostly about finishing up a few storylines and setting up next season with a few cliffhangers… Or seventy thousand cliffhangers, in the case of season five.
Sapochnik will direct the climactic battle in the North, and it will surely be in episode nine. Wasn’t that confirmed already? And what about this clapperboard made you assume that?
I don’t think that necessarily means there will be WW in EP 10?
I am very pleased at Thor’s snack choice before his flight….unless that isn’t tomato juice he is drinking…!
Kay,
The name of the unit doesn’t mean there will be White Walkers. I mean, there probably will, but the name of the unit isn’t any kind of confirmation. It’s not like Wolf unit only does Stark scenes and Dragon unit only does Dany scenes!
I know, but its a hint at least, other wise why call it that now all of a sudden, this is the first time I’ve heard of the white walker unit.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
Of course. That’s the news here. But just because they created a White Walker unit doesn’t mean they will be the ones to film the White Walkers scenes; just as the Wolf unit has filmed scenes with dragons in Slaver’s Bay and Dragon unit has filmed Northern scenes. It does probably mean there will be White Walkers this season, but is that really news?
Aha! Fabian Wagner…. he made some gorgeous Sherlock episodes too… yummy…
Hodor’s Bastard,
Probably a freshly squeezed Martell.
My bet? Ramsay’s actions are going to indirectly lead to the WW getting through the Wall in episode 10.
What? You’ve read that from me before? Oh, sorry….
Had already wondered about a third unit this year. Nice to see my suspicion to be correct! They were filming in three locations at one point, so this is just a confirmation.
CleganeBowl-hype! xD
Wimsey,
It does ring a bell 😛
Anyone wants to read my “Sansa will supplant LSH plotwise” theory again? 😀
Kargaryen,
Yeah I don’t think it means that automatically. It’s just the unit name.
Luka Nieto,
And what is your theory again?
I want to see White Walkers in Dorne. Think about it, would be great and a big eye opener for the whole realm. The Night’s King could send some in a boat or something and get there at the end of the season and start wrecking havoc. It’s a little silly that they are the biggest threat and having only the north dealing with them.
One of Roose Bolton’s 20 good leeches,
That would still have brain bits floating around. (Of course, wights would like that, I bet….)
Bronn’s Bro.,
Maybe they could just show some snow starting to fall in Dorne, indicating that even they are not safe from the White Walkers. A scene with the narrow sea starting to freeze over would be interesting too.
That is because nobody believes that the White Walkers even exist. As we saw in Season 1, Ned Stark thought that this was the ravings of a madman: and if a Stark thinks this, then a Martell or a Lannister would just laugh at the idea!
As for the WW taking boats, well, the fact that a Wall can keep them out of Westeros means that this is not an option for whatever reason.
so they are filing the final episode ? or are they just filing the final scenes they didn’t get to, from what I understand the don’t film in order right ? or am I wrong and they just about to start filming for the last episode.
Didn’t you blog it? Just post the link again!
We will soon be like my great uncles and aunts were when I was a kid: we can just start sentences and trail off as everyone nods knowing what was going to be said next.
Ser Pounce,
This is so exciting.
I think you’re right! I did blog about it. No matter. The theory evolves a bit every time I explain it again. It’s a good exercise.
Matthew The Dragon knight,
It is extremely rare for films or TV shows to shoot scenes/episodes in order. Sometimes some directors like to do that for “feel”: but even then, they often go back and reshoot scenes.
For something like this, the order in which things are filmed is nearly random with respect to when they are shown.
Luka Nieto,
What?!?! You should be rigid and unyielding in your thoughts. To do otherwise is unAmerican.
Oh, wait….
😀
I understand, so I guess they are just Filming a scene in the last episode they didn’t get to already. since the order of filming is random.
I bet that white walkers knock the wall down at the end of episode 10.
Not neccesarily
Ravyn,
Nifty AND keen!
I keep getting punted to spam sites from this page, wtf. *enlists Spam Walkers Unit*
The first part doesn’t make much sense… Why would Sansa be unhappy that Jaime tasked Brienne with finding the Stark girls, protecting them and taking them home to safety?
Wimsey,
They could even breach the Wall this season or at least make an attempt. Although how it’s going to happen? They need to break that spell or whatever is holding them back. It’s probably much like with Bloodraven’s cave. Some people talked about water holding them back, but no I don’t think it’s that.
Besides this. They talked about Ice Spiders, then Jon talking with Sam about climbing the Wall. Could it be the big WW scene?
This may be offtopic but the shooting of Season 6 should finish in December right?
That would mean we are not that far away form the first trailer anymore.
Yup, it would be nice. What we need is a game changer that affects the whole realm. Let’s think about it, if only the north takes care of the white walker threat then what? Northmen win in the end (a Pyrrhic victory) only to then get crushed by the dragons or some other force from the south. I’d also like to see Varys being more effective, despite his mystery and aura everything he has planned so far has failed (at least in the show) and everything that Littlefinger does goes the way he planned, meh.
Geralt of Rivia,
I used to think that Season 6 might end with the Wall falling, back when it looked like it was going to be a seven season show, but with two more seasons to go I’m not sure it’s time for that to happen.
DanTheMan,
Well your right, if I’m not wrong the first Trailer for game of thrones almost always hits around late January. If they do the Imax event again, they will put the season 6 trailer at the end of that like they did last year.
I completely agree with this. I think in the show the Wall falling will parallel with either Dany setting off for Westeros or KL burning (or both!) none of which I think will happen with 20 episodes left.
Miguel and Fabian, they’re amazing!!!
(That warm feeling in my chest is called happiness, yas!!! Can’t wait for season 6!!!)
Luka Nieto,
Thanks for explaining! Interesting plan. Very interesting. And I would agree with it completely except for the part where Sansa asks Brienne to bring Jaime to her. Yes, Sansa should be wary of someone claiming to be on her side if they were sent by a Lannister (please have her have learned to be wary of people by now!) however, having Brienne prove herself by bringing Jaime to where Sansa is would be a rather silly thing to request. Having the queen’s brother – a member of the Kingsguard, too – know the location of someone wanted for regicide would be illogical. Also, what would Sansa do once Jaime arrived? Make him pay for his crimes against the Starks? What does she know about his crimes? That doesn’t fit with anything from Sansa’s TV arc. So while having Sansa play LSH is an interesting premise and could definitely happen, I hope D&D come up with a better reason.
Having said that, I can’t think of any reason anyone could give Brienne to bring Jaime North. Getting her to Riverlands is easy enough: just tell her Jaime needs her. But other than to fight the Battle against the Others, I can’t imagine how or why Brienne would ask Jaime to return to the North with her (if that’s where he’s headed at the end of the season.)
Luka Nieto,
This is a gaping plothole… To transform Sansa into a Clytaimnestra for no reason!!!
could it be that they just renamed the wolf unit the white walker unit due to the content?
That was my first thought.
dothrakian raven,
What is a plot hole?
The sigil is still the direwolf
The only thing more exciting than seeing “White Walker Unit” on a clapperboard is seeing “M. Sapochnik” on a clapperboard.
Season 6 gon’ be gooooooooooooooooooood.
The Onion Knight,
All A-fucking-Board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ser Pounce,
I just read your post and I agree 100%. It would be cheap to transform Sansa into an illogical vengeful creature who would act in the shoes of the UnCat. How unfair for her character! It would have been nonsensical to make Sansa want Jaime’s head just because she wants to play mind games with Brienne and sort of avenge the deaths in her family. Sansa knows very well what has happened. She was there and is aware that if there is two Lannisters to have some sense left these are Jaime and Tyrion. Furthermore D&D has invested in her education to become a clever player not a mindless slayer and to what specific end? I do not see any reason as to why Sansa will be involved in Jaimies and Briennes love/oath drama and how her presence will make this drama more effective since this dramas fate was sealed by Catelyn.
On the other hand the necessity of LSH is more than urgent. In the first three seasons D&D established a (problematic) relationship between Cat and Jon. We got hints that this has in some way to be resolved and all this is associated with the question of Jons origins. My theory is that he presence of LSH will affect Jons process of learning who he is and somehow (and this is a bigger risk for plothole I take) he will be LSHs redeemer since both share a common fate.
Despite what many keep saying the presence of LSH is a catalyst for many other characters. Jaime, Brienne, Arya, Sansa and Bran. To erase her or put someone else to do her doings would reduce the effect of these storylines. In my opinion the most crucial in that case is Aryas. If Arya meets LSH (since Arya is coming back to RLs) then she will see a mirror of her own self and realise that the revenge route she has chosen leads to nowhere. It will be part of her own education to become Arya and not continue being a vengeful beast. Sandor tried to learn her this but he failed and I think that LSH’s presence will be a catalyst.
After 5 seasons Catelyns presence is still felt one or the other way. Michelle’s contribution to this was enormous and she is dearly missed. Many would like to see her in a twist of her role which I do not see how will be an obstacle to the Story of Ice and Fire. Catelyn started as Ekavi and will end as Clytaimnestra is not bad storytelling at all at least for those who have read Homer and Aescylus (ok I know not the crucial majority). Even recent viewers are aware of who she is and the impact she still has in the actions of some main characters. After all what makes this story so intense from the beginning is the Stark family drama which she bore all the way till the RW. There is of course the Song of Ice and Fire which is the axis of the whole story but even in that Song the Starks have an undeniable influence.
Luka Nieto,
The fact that I thought (and still think to be very honest) that you are much smarter than this theory of yours 🙂
I really don’t know how many times in one (pre)season that the Hype Train can leave the station, but there it goes again!!!
I doubt that there is anything about Starks on the Wall or in Wintefell that matters. Indeed, given genealogies, there almost always is going to be someone of Stark descent there, even with Benjen gone. And we need to make it like that for Jon to have any effect.
In general, I would not look to any “mystical” explanations for what will happen. GRRM supposedly (and so far successfully) avoiding the classic arbitrary plot machinations that typify fantasy stories. Instead, it should all come down to human actions and human choices. There are two big human choices that will come into play. One is the choice by the “Nationalist” NW (in both books and TV series) to view the Wildlings as the real threat rather than the WW. The second will be (I predict) what Ramsay does while looking for his awol wife.
As for the Wall falling, it actually would be better done this year. The reaction to the Wall falling should have two parts. One is going to be getting the Southerners to react to it. One thing that we cannot forget is that the Southerners are most emphatically not sitting around dreading that this might happen in their lifetimes. On the contrary, as far as they are concerned (and as both Tyrion and the Maester Luwin explained quite well to other characters and the audience in Season 1), the Wall exists to keep out Wildlings. IF the Others ever existed, then they disappeared a long time ago.
(Indeed, getting the Northerners to react might be an issue if that is not part of Jon’s work this year. The Northerners might more readily accept that the Walkers could come back than that Southerners, but as Ned showed, Northerners will still be skeptical, and Northerners still might view the Wildlings as the more immediate and tangible threat.)
So, reports that White Walkers are invading the North is not going to be a call to arms: it’s going to be a joke. A big part of the primary protagonists’ individual journeys is going to have to be: 1) accepting that this is true (only Jon and Bran know this; but Tyrion, Daeny and Arya certainly will not be so easily swayed; I have no idea what Sansa will make of any of this); and, 2) getting others to follow their leads. This might be particularly important for Daeny: she’s going to be trying to win hearts and minds at some point, and getting people to join her on a wild goose chase after Grumpkins and Snarks might be impolitic at that point.
This requires more than 10 episodes. Really, what they should do is spend one season getting people to respond to the issue (while tying up the loose threads concerning the War of 5 Kings & 3 Queens), and then the final season getting the main characters to understand “what is what” concerning the Walkers, R’hllor, the Children, the old fairy tales, and what is the least awful mutual solution.
Bronn’s Bro.,
WW could go as far as KL is, but not much further. One of Dany’s dreams was about her fighting them at Trident much like where Rhaegar fought with Robert. Which is Riverlands. It’s safe to say that North will definitely not be enough to stop them and essentially while Starks will get their big win. We all assume that. It will be bittersweet victory and WW will attack. Just typical GOT style. They build them up as an unstoppable force that requires good part of Westeros to unite if not the whole.
dothrakian raven,
My theory is that Sansa will supplant LSH in terms of the plot, not in terms of her character. I don’t think she will become a zombie, or a crazy (and crazily boring) creature blinded by revenge. That’s precisely why I don’t like LSH, so I wouldn’t suggest that fate for Sansa, who I like very much. I don’t think Sansa will do with Jaime what LSH intends to do, or at least not how she will do it; but I think that, whatever happens in each version, the outcome will be very similar (in terms of who dies, if anyone does). Sansa is becoming a political player. Taking Jaime as a hostage or executing him wouldn’t be purely a thing of blind revenge, as I explained; she’d be proving she can trust in Brienne, and taking out the leader of the siege against her only remaining family members, as well as the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and the King’s supposed uncle. The heir to the Lannister legacy, too, if he were to abdicate his position in the Kingsguard. This is not the same as hanging random Freys.
dothrakian raven,
I appreciate the compliment, however backhanded it was 😉
dothrakian raven,
That would not qualify as a plot hole: it does not demand two things to be true that cannot both be true. Now, you might view it as inconsistent evolution of a character: but that character is evolving, and we cannot be certain where it will end up.
If you look at the Harry Potter fandom’s reaction to the last three books that Rowling wrote, you will find that fans had wildly diverse and contradictory ideas about how different characters should evolve. A lot of people screamed “X is out of character!” when instead they failed to anticipate how that character would evolve. As Sansa is a young person who is just learning to be active rather than passive, she is in many ways the least easy character to predict what she/he will be like at the end.
dothrakian raven,
I see you’re a fan of the return of LSH. While the story of Brienne and Jaime makes the most sense with her, I don’t think she’s the only one that could make it work on the show. The Blackfish would be enough since he was present for the Red Wedding. But I think the show has NOT set up the LSH story precisely because it’s not Jaime that’s mentioned as the ’cause’ of the retaliation at the Red Wedding but the Lannisters. That makes it less personal than unCat and Jaime and allows others to possibly step into the role.
I think most fans want LSH to return so they can see a Stark get some vengeance on the Freys but I don’t think that’s why Martin included her. I think he wanted to make the opposite point (vengeance is bad, mkay?) and the fact that so many book readers have missed that or down play it in order to snicker happily at the hanging Frey, may be why D&D haven’t included her. That’s just my speculation on the matter given the trend of what’s been excluded from the show. That said, I think the one bit that really suffers from the lack of LSH is Arya. As you mentioned, having her see what’s become of her mother as a result of having a stone for a heart is probably the thing that will turn Arya around. I have no idea how the show will handle that without LSH but I really think having her appear now would be weird for unsullied viewers and detract heavily from Jon’s comeback.
I don’t think Sansa assuming the vengeance role is a bad idea (it may or may not be based on how it was handled by the show), I just think the reason given for Jaime to be brought to her was very weak. I think the fact that Sansa seems to be headed toward getting vengeance for her family against LF makes the idea of her getting vengeance in general – on the show – not too far of a stretch, which would include the Freys. Who knows, maybe even Cersei.
That would be a good way to handle anything that LSH does that ends up being relevant to the overarching plot. There is a much better chance that Sansa will be important come crunch time than there is that either Jaime or Brienne will: if nothing else, we’ve been watching Sansa evolve (if very slowly!) for the entire series, whereas Jaime did not come into focus until halfway through the series, and Brienne still later.
Moreover, given that they’ve jettisoned GRRM’s Vale plotline for Sansa, it is very probable that it does not put Sansa where B&W think the audience needs to see her come crunch time.
Wimsey,
There is a some connection between Starks and WW/Others. It might be something else than their presence at those places. I agree that people in general will laugh about it.
Not the last two seasons: Tywin’s assassination, Brienne vs. Hound, Cersei’s Walk, For The Watch. These are all pretty big events. Heck, the big events thing bled into Ep 8 last season with Hardhome.
This really is not that kind of story! There will not be “mystical” plot solutions: it will all be about individual self-reconciliations. Besides, the Walkers are almost certainly much, much older than the Starks, after all: they were there before “the first men” came. People have tried to connect their return to the Starks, but it does not work: Benjen was on the Wall (as were, no doubt, dozens of other men of Stark descent) and Ned was at Winterfell when the Walkers began to make their comeback.
And you do not need to put your speculation in spoilers: none of it is based on anything that show watchers do not know or know is coming! But as for what will be essential, I think that that speculation is in the wrong direction. It is not going to be about getting Valyrian swords, obsidian and dragons to defeat the White Walkers. Again, it’s going to be about individual character evolution, not arbitrary plot devices. To that end, I think that it is going to be about understanding what really happened thousands of years ago, what the Walkers, R’hllor and possibly others (e.g., the Children) really want from all of this, and then building on the shared evolution of Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya and Bran (and maybe Sansa) to achieve some sort of solution.
Now, Sam might find some old stories that the Maesters have chronicled and he might get some hints from them: but the Maesters do not have files on the Walkers, as they think them to be either an extinct people, or simply a people of legends.
This season could point the directions that will be necessary. Daeny is obviously going to be winning over people who would rather imprison her. Jon might be winning over people who would rather execute him for treason and/or desertion. Arya seemingly will be dealing with wanting to be a Faceless Woman in skills while still being Arya Stark rather than Noone, which might well require some analogous winning-over of people who would otherwise kill her. These things might well be what sets up some of the big payoffs.
Luka Nieto,
According to your version having Sansa involved in Jaime’s fate means two different things. Either getting him as hostage or killing him. In the first case I am rather intrigued because I would really like to see Sansa playing mind games with Cersei at some point but to what effect will this kind of choice influence Brienne’s character development? Brienne is already disillusioned and pissed off with the whole mess of wars, lords and oaths and I have a difficulty in seeing how Sansa’s attempt to be political and testing Brienne’s loyalty will give a twist to the drama. Sansa does not fit in the Brienne/Jaimie mix. If Brienne finds Sansa the only logical for me is that the two will have a chat about Arya and that Sansa will ask Brienne to find her sister and not capture Jaimie because she needs to prove that she is political and a tactician of high calibre ( to say nothing of Sansa asking Brienne killing Jaimie).
And I really do not understand what is the problem of taking revenge. I haven’t read the books but all of you book readers keep saying that what little you know about LSH is just two pages. Why is it so difficult to see beyond these two pages? Killing random Freys as you say it does not sound irrelevant to me but I suppose and hope that there will be more to her and I am more than willing to pay the price if such expectation will not materialise (which I am almost convinced that they will). I have already referred to the Jon-Catelyn axis as was depicted in the first three seasons and I would really like D&D explore its possibilities. Arya is also a character that LSH can affect with her presence in more than one way. Then it is the Jaimie/Brienne storyline and even Bran’s. I cannot even see Black Fish (however badass he is) to have an effect in the RLs storyline without her just because he was introduced via Cat. So for me LSH’s inclusion is neither a one-dimensional waste of time or a narrative void as many commentators having been trying all this time to convince us that it is. It remains of course to be seen…
Bronn’s Bro.,
Cannot recall, does Varys know it was LF who stoked the wars that brought House of Stark down? I’m hoping Sansa finds out and sheds her timid mouse cloak then goes full bore bitch on LFs game.
Luka Nieto,
Not at all backhanded. It is a pleasure to read your comments. I invest my precious time to do it if that means something…
Ser Pounce,
One big mistake that many here make is that they underestimate the audience. I started watching the series in the middle of season three. That didn’t stop me from seeing the seasons I missed (2 times actually and a third is on its way). So I am sure that the audience is very well aware of what has happened before at the Game of Thrones and who Catelyn is and what’s a LSH. If there is a reason why D&D didn’t include LSH in S3 or 4 that is because she wouldn’t have anything to do taking into consideration the geographical positioning of the related to her characters. Now it seems there is a momentum and her inclusion will make much more sense.
The Blackfish is not enough in my opinion. He is a tertiary character who had a few episodes (basically a couple of scenes) in one season. Blackfish would be good for the RR siege but I cannot see his impact in avenging the Freys. Speaking of avenge why is it so bad to avenge? I mean it has been the backbone of storytelling since the homeric epos. I have great difficulties in understanding why people get upset when it comes to avenging. And frankly I cannot see any better character to avenge for the Starks in RLs than LSH. So for me no problems in that. Nor do I think that GRRM included her because he wanted to be didactic or give us a lecture of why is so bad to avenge. He is a storyteller and he knows that many others before him very successfully used this plot device.
So seriously I see more pros than cons in the inclusion of LSH…
So Euron will blow Joramun’s horn and the Wall falls down AND THE NIGHT’S KING MARCHES WITH HIS ARMY FINALLY SHITTTT!!!!4!!444!!four!
Since it’s not sure if LSH is on the show or not, it’s kinda a question for the books atm. Can anybody describe in theory, that if the WW come to the south, how the WW would respond if they see LSH?
Probably not going to happen but that thought just came up. Wondering what the WW will do.
I see it as a plot hole in that case. Converging Sansa into Jayne Poole made sense for me and had no difficulty in following the character development. In fact that was the most interesting part of the whole season 6. But converging Sansa into LSH even in the way that Luka suggests is a plot hole. Catelyn is a woman who had everything and looses everything. As a consequence she becomes LSH and that transformation has an tremendous impact to the viewer. But Sansa is a girl who is still trying to learn how to play the game. To make her a light version of LSH takes away the power of Catelyns transformation. Consider Fairleys performance: she gave everything to portray Catelyn as a woman who fight with all her heart for the benefit of her family. She has become that family. To loose everything and so tragically make her heart a heart of stone. Sansas character on the other hand has taken another trajectory. Her tragedy is not in what she is loosing but in what she is obliged to suffer and what is expected of her to become. And we expect her to become a player, the Wardeness of the North, not a heart of stone. LSH is a take it or leave it character. I would rather see her totally gone than Sansa as her cheap substitute.
DRLOW,
A very good observation over which I have also pondered. LSH and Jon could be the narrative points where Rhllor and the WW may converge. And that is why I said above that D&D have made clear that there are unresolved issues between Catelyn and Jon which in the case that these two characters meet again in their Un-form it will be interesting to see where this may lead in the battle against the WW.
dothrakian raven,
That’s not what “plot hole” means. What you’re trying to say is that it would be a character inconsistency. A plot hole is another thing entirely.
dothrakian raven,
I think the scene where Catelyn is remembering Jon’s near death as an infant, points to an unresolved issue between them. I can see the show resurrecting then simultaneously.
White Walker unit sounds like the most badass unit. I’m really hoping we get to see more from the perspective of the White Walkers like
So excited for s06!!
Luka Nieto,
If it will be as you suggest it is obviously a plot hole (in my eyes at least). It is not just a character inconsistency like Sansa becoming Jane Poole. To transform Sansa into LSH even if it is a light version of book LSH I think it will create a gap between what Catelyn as a character was for the show during her three season presence and how Sansa developed until now. To make Sansa a means in order to close the trajectory of Catelyns route will be damaging for almost 1/4 of the whole story. As I said it will be much better to discard completely the LSH plot and make Sansa a real player than merging their fates.
I haven’t! And I like it. I like it a lot!
The Wall will crushing down because of Euron who blows Joramun’s horn. CONFIRMED
Leaked season 6 script was true. Can’t wait to see on screen!!!!
heheh, it’s a drum I’ve been banging for a while now. (I think that some people might be sick of it, so it helps to re-introduce it with a little humor…..)
A plot hole has a specific meaning: it’s a situation where something occurs when something else in the plot forbids it. Nothing that we have been given forbids Luka’s scenario. Moreover, given that we are dealing with a character that is going to evolve a ton in a hurry (if only because Sansa was so static for so long), it is really tough to say what she might or might not become.
And as for Sansa “becoming Jeyne Poole,” Sansa did not come remotely close to doing that. Jeyne was simply a device for getting Theon to re-emerge from Reek. Sansa was a force in her own right: indeed, if anything, Theon being pulled from Reek became a tool for Sansa’s character evolution. We probably are going to see some similar evolution of Sansa in the Vale: but it will not involve an important plot-line, and it will not involve any other remotely important characters.
And this will not have an effect on 1/4th of the storyline. Look at it this way: Jon, Daeny, Tyrion, Arya and Bran combined are much, much more than 75% of the over-arching story. Indeed, it is very possible that those five plus Sansa will be the over-arching story: and Sansa might be the sixth, but she will be less than one sixth. (Not all primary protagonists are equal in a multi primary protagonist story!) There is not 25% of the story outside of those five that LSH or anything surrounding her can affect.
Daeny will have that role, not LSH. As we saw last year, many members of the Red Church already are pointing to Daeny as the “chosen one.” She will bring that with her from Essos.
However, Jon will probably also have a R’hllorite proponent: Melisandre. She almost certainly will come to see Jon as the Chosen One instead of Stannis, and she almost certainly will be instrumental in saving Jon’s life. It might come down to a “sandal” vs. “gourd” debate between the two sides: but it could be that they both are right, and that they both do not see the whole picture.
royz,
Actually no.
No, it wasn’t.
dothrakian raven,
That’s not what “plot hole” means. A plot hole is a logical contradiction or inconsistency, such as illogical or impossible events taking place, or two mutually contradictory things happening in the story. A plot hole isn’t a character inconsistency, however severe you may think it is; a plot hole isn’t an unanswered question in a story, either (despite the fact that such a thing could be described as a “hole” in the “plot”).
I might be the only person happy that the show didn’t include LSH – and I hope they never do.
The WW getting through the Wall in S6 seems too early still. With 2 seasons left? 20 episodes?
I believe more like when the Starks retake Winterfell by the end of S6, and get more support during S7, and Dany arrives in Westeros by middle of S7 they’d show up in the end of S7.
Then we’d have the last season to focus on the final battle between the WW and the rest of the realm.
The wall is coming down!
My boobs are tingling.
LSH is out of place in the books as well. I hope she is dispatched quickly in books.
Wimsey,
Even by means of your own strict definition of
Now it has become very clear to me that you have a very strict and in my opinion linear understanding of who the main characters are. I agree that Daeny, Jon, Tyrion, Arya and Bran is extremely central characters to the story but it has become obvious that both the writer and the producers have induced in the story a broader character perspective which includes Jaimie, Cersei, Brienne, Sam, Melissandre, Ned, Catelyn, LF, the Hound, Margery, Jorah. This plurality allows the whole work to breathe and makes it extremely interesting. When I say that the above mentioned inconsistency or plot hole will affect 1/4 of the story as such I include all these characters. In the end of the day the tv show is called The Game of Thrones (and not ASOIAF) for a reason. So having Sansa coming into LSH territory will affect Jaimie, Brienne, Arya, Bran, Catelyn and LF if not Jon and Cersei too. I would like to say actually that it is more than 1/4 but I keep it modest. In that case if this happens it will be a plot hole. And as I said it is much better to totally exclude LSH than to attempt to give away her actions or part of them to Sansa.
Dany will arrive to Westeros in S7 and for sure not in the very beginning of it. So if Jon clears the WF situation in the end of S6 and if WW take down the Wall and march southwards it means that Riverlands will become a borderline and thus LSHs presence will give the opportunity to sort out a few things before Dany’s arrival. A conflict between two Rhllorsteins would have been an interesting option. Of course this just goes too far…
royz,
No, it had several errors. It was definitely a fake.
Luka Nieto,
Well then we have to agree that we disagree. I explained that your scenario is not just a character inconsistency or a hole in the plot.
Hopefully you’ll be able to “live with it” if I happen to be right (which I very much believe will be the case), or it will mean you are taking this show way too seriously. I have been wrong about this show many times over (“Sansa is so not going to Winterfell”, anyone?), yet death or unending pain have never followed suit, thank God. In fact, I’ve lived with it quite well, as have many others. Surely you’ll manage.
Why do I believe my theory is much more likely than your alternatives? Well, let me answer with some questions:
Luka Nieto
If your theory is true, the second year of Sansa acting out someone else’s storyline will be enough for me. I’ll be out. And I realize that’s not exactly what you’re saying but I already had to go through the horror of Sansa being Jeyne Poole (because she was Jeyne Poole, there was hardly any personalization to that storyline for Sansa herself) I do not want to sit through Sansa being LSH. Let Sansa live and grow as freaking Sansa, please.
What errors then?
Sue the Fury,
I’m having a hard time trying to convince a friend that leaked script was fake. Probably because I only noticed small thing being wrong. What major stuff there are there that can already be proven wrong?
Most of it will involve Jaime and Brienne anyway. Sansa will be occupied with Northern politics the whole season —that is, a storyline of her own, whether it is wholly based on TWOW or not. In terms of Sansa herself, as a character, taking over LSH’s role is only a matter of the scene in which she sends Brienne out and the one in which Brienne brings Jaime in.
Oh, and I long for the day people stop pointlessly threatening nobody in particular that they will stop watching the show. Funnily enough, these people always come back!
How do you figure that?
Poole was barely a character; she was a tool for Theon’s character development. If anything, Theon fans complained that in season five Theon was the one relegated to being a tool to Sansa’s development. She was her own character with a story of her own. Whether you liked that story or not is another matter —but it wasn’t Poole’s story, because she had no story at all. The fact that she partly fulfilled Poole’s purpose does not mean her own story was discarded for that of Jeyne, just as Sansa fulfilling LSH’s story, among many other stuff she will do this season, wouldn’t mean her story has been ignored for that of LSH (assuming LSH could be said to have a “story”, which is more than a stretch anyway). Sansa is simply taking over the plot-points of a few other characters, while still having her own story. Not exactly a shocking development in terms of adaptation decisions for this show or any other well-conceived adaptation.
Yep, between this and snowing up the Castle Black site a couple of weeks ago and the Northern Ireland woods (northern woods as opposed to “beyond the Wall” woods?) have some good feeling the episode relates the WW’s busting their way past Thorne and co, slaughtering what’s left of the Watch and moving into the north of Westeros
Depends on how you look at it, as a “catelyn replacement” she is somewhat awkward. But I doubt we are getting any Stoneheart POV’s
Thing with Stoneheart is she is firstly pointing out how “death changes people” and the imbalance deficiencies of the R’hlorr method of resurrection and secondly she is a lead-in to Sansa ” Lady Lothston Mk2″ reigning of the Riverlands
In the first case Jons resurrection will be more “rounded” as it will be Mel/Bran and R’hlorr/CoTF bringing him back so he is “more complete” (especially if his soul remains somewhat intact in Ghost) though I actually reckon resurrected Jon has a bit of Direwolf Ghost in his personality
In the second, Lady Stoneheart descent and what she does with the BwB in a narrative precursor and a microcosm to what Sansa does with her Lady/honour teaching and the once vibrant Riverlands into a marshy land of horror
IMO at least
Does anyone have any idea if the date on the clapper board men’s anything? It’s dated for March of this year. Is that just the very beginning of season 6 in total?
Luka Nieto,
It’s an interesting idea. However, I tend to think that it won’t happen for a couple of reasons, one being I believe the show was trying to set up complete and utter failure on the part of Brienne in regards to Sansa. As in, I don’t even think they are going to meet at all at the beginning of Season 6. I think Brienne missing the candle and avenging Renly was the moment in and of itself where she had the conflict of vows that occurs in the books, and with it will come complete and dejection and guilt for Brienne during the first half of the season.
Secondly, I agree with those who say that it does seem a little much to put Sansa into an alternate story role again, especially since she’s a pretty main character in this world. I think Season 5 Winterfell stuff was a diversion because her AFFC/ADwD story is so freaking unfilmable and boring (my opinion only) and also because there must be some reasonable parallel somewhere down the line in Winds that they felt it worked to get her where she needs to be longterm. I don’t think it needs to be her to send Brienne south again, and I don’t even think anyone needs to tell Brienne
Far better to use a minor character like Blackfish to create conflict where it needs to be.
Again, I don’t hate the theory, I just think it’s kind of unlikely.
Luka Nieto,
Mmm… your theory just doesn’t make sense to me. Besides Sue said that Jaime will be in other places by the end of season she didn’t say that he will be far away. Anyway, Sansa will be busy with the Snowbowl after party so I see Jaime arriving Winterfell a little bit rushed. Jaime’s arc should have an end by itself… travelling to Winterfell doesn’t works for me (at least he takes that decission after he burns a letter and I don’t see how).
For me… the simple thing is that Sansa sends Brienne to find Arya (why does Sansa use Brienne to bring Jaime if she has chances to have her sister back?). Then in Riverlands, Beauty Brienne will hear about Jaime in Riverrun if LSH doesn’t happen. No need to add Sansa in the Brienne-Jaime business. Sansa never pay attention to him and by now she has more issues with LF and the North (wildings, Boltons, white walkers) to make room to Jaime.
Besides that… I don’t see Sansa asking Brienne to bring an enemy when she is still hiding herself from the Bolton.
Judibatt,
It’s November 3. The date goes “Day/Month/Year” in places not the US.
It seems like the date is written in DD/MM/YY format (min-to-max), which is fine. I prefer YYYY/MM/DD (max-to-min) for better numerical/sequential tracking but this format is used as well. The MM/DD/YY standard is stupid from a sequencing standpoint and I’m surprised it is still used after the Y2K debacle.
kit_hepburn,
Out of curiosity, do you think they were showing Brienne as failing when she killed Stannis? Sure, she fails Sansa in that moment, but I don’t think it’s complete and utter failure.
Brienne chose vengeance and, in doing so, failed Sansa. Is the point of that showing that Brienne is a total failure or is it showing the cost of vengeance?
I am confused as to how this “prediction” could possibly be NOT true. If Ramsay were to kill himself in S6E01, maybe? The inclusion of the word “indirect” makes it so vague that just about any plausible actions on his part would count as a fulfillment of the prediction.
HotPinkLipstick,
It’s not that I think Brienne is a total f***-up. She got her revenge on Stannis, which was a vow (a vow that even Catelyn said she was cool with, and would not stand in her way when it came to that). But the cost of fulfilling one vow was failing at another one. “So many vows…” Jaime says at one point, and I think this is Brienne’s moment to realize that. And I like the perspective that this is the cost of vengeance, in a story that doesn’t seem to be too particularly keen on vengeance (or at the very least, portrays it as a sort of complex thing). When I say this was “complete and total failure” with regards to Sansa, I’m not really making a value judgement on Brienne – I’m trying to say that I think the show is going to want to toy with that for a bit. Brienne can’t actually stew on that idea of “too many vows” if she finds Sansa immediately when Season 6 begins. If she does, that’s what, five minutes of: “Oh no, swearing so many vows and then actually following through with them is actually hard, this has really given me a whole new perspective on… oh PHEW! There you are Sansa! Boy, that was a close one.” It just seems… odd to me if that’s what occurs after how they set up the finale. I’ll have no problem saying so at the beginning of Season 6 if she and Sansa actually do find each other, but I suppose I’ll get over it.
Okay, on a totally unrelated note: Do we think this is the first time they are actually filming scenes for the finale? Or have they done any scenes earlier?
Ghost’s Lunch,
I wouldn’t mind the nights watch getting slaughtered, I expect something like that to come up sooner or later, either this season or next.
OT: HBO’s The Leftovers was tremendous tonight (“Lens”). It’s the most engaging drama on TV this Fall season. The story carries over the madness very well from the riveting S1 and the addition of the Murphys and “Miracle” is brilliant. Eerie, insane and disturbing, on many levels. Love Sunday nights!
Luka Nieto
The part of your idea that interests me is the part about bringing Jamie north – and into Jon’s orbit. Because Jamie’s dream in the books – just before he returns to Harrenhal for Brienne – suggests a lot of guilt over Rhaegar’s children. It could be leading towards Jamie helping Jon at some stage.
Javi from Los Siete Reinos said that Jaime would be using Littlefinger’s jetpack. That to me means he will be going far away from Riverrun very quickly.
Considering that in the show Jaime will be physically in King’s Landing for half a season, there’s no letter needed. Jaime will be able to refuse Cersei in person, which works better for a visual medium anyway.
That’s my secondary theory 🙂 If she’s not sending her for Jaime, it’s gotta be Arya.
She wouldn’t, by the time I was describing. She would be safe and surrounded by a whole army of Stark loyalists. One Brienne more or less won’t make a difference.
Episode 10: Goodbye Wall.
Totally OT. British quiz Mastermind this week featured a guy whose specialist subject was ASOIAF. Link to video about half way down, he is first up at around 1:35 – see how many out of 13 you get right!
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/mastermind-contestant-chooses-game-of-thrones-as-his-specialist-subject-nails-it-a6727036.html
Sean C.,
there is at least 8 season. white walker in westeros for 2 season! it is a bit irrational. what are they going to do there for 2 season(at least)?
Doug,
Okay. LSH has a STONE HEART. She is a zombie vengeful Pez Dispenser who wouldn’t even give JS the time of day, but probably find a way to blame him and have him killed. JS would see a zombie step-mother Pez Dispenser and think her on the wrong side of the wall and probably try to kill her. Pfffft resolve old issues with a dead person who can’t even talk.
I am sorry I still don’t get the whole drama and desire for LSH. For me it was misplaced in the book and has no place in the show. It is a ridiculous concept…..we are expected to buy a lot of things in ASoIaF and that is why we love it, but I think this just pushes boundaries of belief past anything sensible to the absurd.
mas,
I don’t believe the climatic battle will be S8E9, more like a two parter somewhere between S8E4-8. GRRM hinted at a long bittersweet series of conclusions, similar to LOTR, therefore expect the last few episodes to concentrate on those.
Oh. I didn’t know. Anyway I can’t see Jaime just arriving to Winterfell on the aftermath of a battle that just happened in S06E09. In any case,
as some sources reported it should be in S06E10. So there’s no room for Jaime there. But it’s a possibility, unlikely, but still possible.
I know. That’s why I said that I don’t see how. But if there’s no room for Jaime to complete his season arc in WF he should have a last scene that sets his arc for S7. A simple but strong last scene could be he burning Cersei’s letter for other reasons and then his departure to Winterfell… anyway, as I am not supporting the idea of him travelling to WF I won’t trouble with it. Where will he go by the end of season?… Good question.
A war is coming, and Sansa would be still far away of a proper environment to deal with an enemy. I don’t see how she would be interested in Jaime with too many issues around her. If Brienne has chances to have a long and calm talk with Sansa (as long as to allow Brienne to say Sansa that Jaime send her to find her), she will say something about Arya and the Hound.
What makes me wonder… if for any miraclous reason the Hound is alive… would he find a way to tell Sansa that LF betrayed her father? ?
Too many questions… I need next season now ?
Ross,
He did well and knew some I didn’t. But I was surprised he missed the “horse’s heart” for what part of a horse is supposed to make Dothraki children strong? Who can forget Dany munching on that blood heart. I wanted to vomit just watching her!
JCDavis,
I strongly agree. I think LSH is really pointless and anyway she’d lessen the impact of
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
Oh my gawd, duh duh duh to me. I know that and yet somehow I did not apply it to this pic. Red faced!
I am not sure if the show is doing a BWB arc, but in the books LSH is running one section of that group and when she was alive as Cat, she was there for most of the discussion regarding an heir for Robb whose orders were then carried out by now members of the BWB. The BWB are also most likely assisting Blackfish, who is returning onscreen this season. So LSH may have wanted to help see her son’s wish fulfilled AFTER Jamie is offed. Who knows, she may have wanted to use Robb’s will as an excuse to get to JS? The show, at this point, could easily do some of this storyline (sans LSH) but I don’t remember a living heir or will being discussed by Robb. I think this may be one of the main reasons bookies love the LSH so much. Her potential potential.
That is true for Cat, not for LSH. You are absolutely correct that she did all those things WHEN ALIVE….I doubt that the BwB or anyone else could ever foresee that she would come back dragged out of a river with a face hardly recognizable and throat cut to a degree she can barely warble to be the grand designer and leader of, from what I understand, the now defunct BwB.
Honestly if you saw a woman you knew to be dead come at you like she did, wouldn’t you try to kill “it” or run for the freakin’ hills?
If I never saw a reference to LSH again, it’d be too soon.
Kill it, Kill it with FIRE! Hahaha. Too true! I am neutral on the whole LSH idea in both media versions. I could taker her or leave her.
I have a feeling that all types of people on and off screen will be talking about her even after both series end. If I never heard about her again, I’d be fine with that too. I don’t even think she represents the same type of death and resurrection we will get with Jon so she is just a rep for how revenge ravages a person. Something we already know.
Doug,
You mean Dondarrion’s resurrections were a double-barreled shotgun?!?! I’d so freakout if that were true lol Cool concept too.
There are a few “plot holes” in this theory though one of which that I mentioned before:
Why would Sansa be upset at Brienne’s explanation that Jaime tasked her with finding the Stark girls, protecting them and delivering them safely to the North?
Even if that were to happen, and say Sansa did request Jaime to come North, Jaime would never be foolish enough to travel there for any conceivable reason without a heavy garrison, as it’d mean certain death.
Brienne is wanted by many of the northern lords for her part in Jaimes escape (depriving them of justice for the whispering wood etc). I cannot see her surviving long enough in the company of the northern lords to explain anything.
We don’t even know that Sansa and Brienne meet- as someone else said, it kinda undermines Brienne’s while arc around multiple/conflicting oaths.
Within show context, I agree. But for TWoW, I believe merciless UnCat has a purpose, however vengeful and insane…and it may not be so predictable or eye-rolling.
Yus! Every time anyone is resurrected so is a giant flying killer zombie penguin nazi shark (I’ve upgraded to a GM mash up of them). They are just biding their time, waiting for the right moment to strike….. Hi TW *waves* 😀 Oh and that obviously means Clegane Bowl confirmed too. GET HYPE!! Don’t think I’ve seen Harma Dogmeme posting for a while so thought I’d get that in on their behalf. *Sigh* 6 months to go until S6 and I’m already posting absolute gibberish, I need a hobby! 😉 Oooh oooh just counted we’re now down to 5 months 😀
It needs a bastard from the Riverlands to bring down the wall (Roger Waters).
Apollo,
Good point about
Apollo,
That’s a good point about briennes role Helping Jaime get back to kings landing. Could be a reason for Ramsey to burn someone on a giant x to try to show the northern lords justice and try to get them on his side
Lulus Mum,
Hey there, stranger! 😀 You need a meme/gif/smiley for this: “giant flying killer zombie penguin nazi shark”, cause that’s a mouthful LOL
Clegane Bowl has some insane following. They are so inventive too. Wherever I go on the net (Asoiaf or Got sites), there’s talent put together to bring the #HYPE around. Vids, memes, posters, you name it. I’d feel bad if it doesn’t happen. Which I have huge doubts it will. I will be delighted to be wrong!
TormundsWoman,
Isn’t that just a Nazi sharkguinnado?
I need some news. I mean, I’d settle for Iain Glenn with his arm wrapped in a bandage to cover the greyscale at this point. Anything.
Epic fail…
Bastards from the Riverlands are called Rivers.. Bastards from the Crownlands (KL, Rosby, Cracklaw Point, etc) are called Waters..
Gawd, another post of Sansa-Brienne-Jamie or LSH and I am going to barf.
Anything new on the horizon, Sue?
Well, get out your emisis basin. 🙁
Having read through the thread, I just have a couple of thoughts I wanted to throw out there.
Regarding Jaime and Brienne: Brienne has Oathkeeper, which is part of the reforged Ice. I’d love it if Jaime ended up grabbing the other half, which is, at least as far as I can recall, still floating about Red Keep. The thought of both parts of Ice reforged getting back north, at least eventually, and maybe even into Stark hands is really intriguing to me.
Regarding the Pez Dispenser (that’s still my favorite description of her, JCDavis 🙂 ):
I suppose BR has many reasons, personal and political, to keep a watchful eye on the Riverlands…
Is it expected that filming will be complete by mid December?
As it starts to wind down, there are still two actors – as far as I remember – whose names have not surfaced in any filming reports: Toby Sebastian and Ellie Kendrick. (Unless I missed something here at WOTW. ) I understand that it doesn’t necessarily mean that they haven’t filmed. I think that both actors need to reappear in briefly S6, at the very least, even if they are killed off soon after.
Ser Oromis Locke,
I just thought it was a Pink Floyd reference….
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
Now see, your post I did not mind. I agree, Having both swords forged from Ice back in the North would be…..well..I can’t find a word for it.
The LSH talks are so boring! She’s useless now in the show, it will never happen, get over it!
– Showing the power of the Lord of Light : we already know he can resurrect people (Thoros), and there was a created scene in the show where Melisandre learns about this. Now she can resurrect Jon the same way. And two R’hllor resurrections in the same season, really?
– Avenging the Starks : now in the show this role belongs to Arya, and Jon/Sansa/Rickon. That’s already too many Starks seeking revenge, how many of them do you need? One in each of the Seven Kingdoms?
– Dealing with Jaime and Brienne’s oaths : both of them have faced the consequences of their oaths in the show, when Brienne has failed to save Arya from the Hound (and if you look carefully, when the Hound talked about Brienne’s sword and the “gold of the Lannisters”, it’s exactly the reason why LSH said Brienne is a traitor and decides to hang her in the books), she failed to save Sansa from LF and then Ramsey (when she was killing Stannis, another oath to Renly). As for Jaime, he has lost everything he loves (Cersei, Myrcella) and we can be sure his s6 storyline in the Riverlands will go deeper in that topic, with Edmure/Blackfish and probably Brienne if they meet.
Conclusion : all the reasons for LSH to exist in the books are now filled by someone else in the show in season 6. In season 3 or 4 she could have appeared (and I believed so), but now, it’s over. There’s no point to her character at all. Let it go.
Newbietothegame,
Yay! I’m happy to know I didn’t make you puke. 🙂
btw – I spelled “emesis” incorrectly. Oops.
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I am intrigued by this as well. I’m sure it’s not my original thought, but Oathkeeper, and it’s forging, have some similarities to the forging of Lightbringer. It seems to me if Brienne lops off the head of a Pez Dispenser and the sword starts to flame, we’ve got our Nissa Nissa.
Jaime’s weirwood stump dream has Jaime and Brienne with flaming swords, and she’s the one left alone with him when everyone else leaves…. Whatever is said about prophecies, this dream means something. It’s why he jumped in a bearpit to save her.
So yeah, Jaime gets Widow’s Wail; Brienne has Oathkeeper, something magicky happens and the swords are now flaming…and need to be taken to the Wall. I see it happening. It makes so much more narrative sense than the silly valonqar thing.
Stoneheart is totally needed for the story and has indeed a huge impact on many characters. And it´s Martin´s favourite character:
http://whatculture.com/tv/george-r-r-martin-wants-lady-stoneheart-on-game-of-thrones.php
Can anyone identify the guy on the right on this photo? That’s from the Battle of Bastards wrap party and the girl claims that this guy’s playing Smalljon Umber.
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xtp1/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/11313539_1507253602932007_717926920_n.jpg
Gravemaster,
It looks like the guy just shaved, for those people who might be worried that this means the Smalljon’s clean-shaven. And he’ll have more than enough time to have grown it back since then for when he shoots again sometime this month.
Hopefully someone recognizes him today so we can get that announcement. 🙂 We’ve been waiting on this one for awhile now.
HotPinkLipstick,
I’ve always kinda takin the flaming sword to not be literally flaming but just another description for valyrian steel because of its forging with dragon fire
Gravemaster,
He certainly has the build for an Umber.
HotPinkLipstick,
Once all the novels are finished (fingers crossed), it will be so fun to go back and see which prophecies meant something, and which “prophecies” weren’t prophecies. Your idea has some interesting elements. I’ll for sure go back and re-read the dream. All other speculation aside, I just think both swords need to get back north, one way or another.
btw – part of what I find interesting about what you propose is wouldn’t that make Brienne AA? Some of those who find her a mostly inconsequential character would flip out, were that the case. 🙂
Shane snow,
I like that interpretation, too, as that would mean Longclaw could be a viable candidate.
So many possibilities! 🙂
Gravemaster,
Just out of curiosity, do you have the link the original instagram post?
Morgan,
Of course, here
https://instagram.com/p/9Erp6TAYuX/
I suspect that all of the prophecies will turn out to be prophecies. And like most prophecies, they will be ironic in the end, at least insofar as the characters who are aware of the prophecies are concerned. But, really, it’s a pretty dull prophecy that flatly states “Jon Snow will be King of the World come Page 827.”
That written, there are a lot of things that fans view as prophecies that are not necessarily prophecies, such as dreams, etc. A lot of those things will, in the end, be just dreams that were useful at the time for developing the character and showing us what was weighing in his/her mind at the time.
A separate and perhaps bigger issue will be the foreshadowings. Some of them will have been turn out to be inadvertent by GRRM and/or B&W. Others will be “Mt. Molehills” that fans blew out of proportion. (Of course, these might wind up being identical in the eyes of fans!) But that is always a trick with foreshadowings regardless of what story you are discussing.
However, one prediction that I think that we can safely make: much like the Harry Potter series, there will be a lot of very unhappy fans in the end because different groups of fans are looking to see different types of endings. For HP fans, it was partly the fans who were convinced that Harry’s scar could not be a Horcrux, or that Snape was “evil” and could never have been in love with Harry’s mother. But it also was from fans who thought that the series would hinge on Harry learning “the” spell to defeat Voldemort, or that there would be untapped hidden magic associated with his green eyes, or that characters such as Sirius Black and Dumbledore would prove to not be dead and play key roles in Voldemort’s defeat. One group of fans even was convinced that Neville Longbottom was the true Chosen One! On the other hand, there were a lot of fans who wanted the climax to have Harry doing something that he was equipped to do going into the last story, and that it would be a “human” aspect of Harry’s character that we’d seen evolve over 7 books rather than “magical” solution that made the difference. It basically would have been impossible for Rowling to please both groups.
(The parallels in the debates among Rowling fans and GRRM fans are really quite strong!)
Gravemaster,
Thanks!
Wimsey,
I think it was pretty clear when I put prophecies in quotation marks, I wasn’t speaking just of the formal prophecies, but of those things many of us see as being prophetic…whether an actual prophecy, a dream, a line which serves a foreshadowing, or what-have-you. If it wasn’t as clear as I thought, my apologies.
As for parallels with Harry Potter, or debates about it, or whatever, I know a few around here get into it, but I’m not one of them.
At first glance I thought it was Neil Napier, but actually it doesnt look to be him… curious to see if anyone can identify him.
Moka,
She has only been in two pages. How can we know her purpose? Just wait for TWOW.
It’d be so sweet to see a sweeping shot of the seven kingdoms after “winter” has come, showing the lands around the castles and how it’s affecting each area. Kind of like the intro, only for real (cgi).
Every time I read, Sansa will tell Brienne to bring Jaime to her, I hear Lysa shouting, “I warned you to stay away from him! Not to bring him here!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11ORLxwTxi4&list=PLW03UEvjx8OIo6NodT7GRj0cbmOUWo8-G
Yeah, I’m looking forward to interesting macro changes like that to the intro model over the next few seasons. Some new locations will be fun. I would also like to see the model’s wall in shambles at some point…and maybe a smoldering KL. 😉
To make me do this with a book in my hand:
https://abigeyedfish.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/tumblr_myaqb64f5u1svoh1co1_500.gif
The parallels are tough to avoid, as HP and SoI&F are the only two long-running fantasy series that had over-arching mysteries to go with the stories. But they also are two of the most literate fantasy works out there: strip off the lipstick of magic, dragons, etc., and they really are just normal novels telling the same sorts of stories that non-fantasy novels tell.
And as for the foreshadowings, etc., well, it will be interesting to see what we have correctly identified. In a way, the same will go for the putative Chekhovian guns. In both cases, people here disagree about what is a foreshadowing vs. a throw-away line, and what is a hung gun vs. a wall hanging next to some gun. If this turns out to be like HP (and I think that it will), then those things that we can tie to GRRM’s theory of storytelling will be the true shadows and guns.
How many here truly believe JS is coming back in Season 6 as a permanent character, not in flashbacks? I know there have been plenty of leaks, photos from the set and what not, but what is the probability of it really happening? 80%? 90%?
Wimsey- What are you referring to when you say “But, really, it’s a pretty dull prophecy that flatly states “Jon Snow will be King of the World come Page 827.””?
Hashmist,
Greenjones,
Greenjones- How and by whom? You mean by that leaked pic from the battle of the bastards set?
Nymeria Warrior Queen,
I absolutely agree (and thought it obvious you were using prophecies to mean all those things, but you know, semantics give people a thrill).
I skimmed the Harry Potter books, but YA lit does pretty much nothing for me. I thought them sappy and trite, which is great for YA, but just not particularly deep or thought provoking. And you know, if I wanted to work up a feeling, I’m pretty sure I could come up with some ASoIaF parallels for The Wrinkle in Time Series or even the Little House on the Prairie TV show. (Ramsay is the Mime, Sansa is Sylvia!) That doesn’t mean those comparisons are particularly insightful or interesting.
There are so many prophecies and dreams and lines/events that might be foreshadowing, that it will be interesting to go back once it is finishes and re-read. But we all know, it might never finish.
Hashmist,
And all of the set info from it that WOTW’s reported.
Hashmist,
No offence, mate… But if you really doubt at this point that Jon is back, well… You haven’t been paying attention.
Davos’ Luck,
I thought Jon snow coming back was a known fact at this point o_o
Davos’ Luck,
Believe me mate, I’ve been paying attention. Been checking any GOT related news I can find anywhere almost everyday since the end of Season 5. Obviously there have been plenty of Kit sightings in Northern Ireland along with that one leaked pic as well as his interview to that Swedish news outlet. But nothing more than that, I don’t think…
Matthew The Dragon knight,
Nothing official, just speculation. But I agree more of an open secret at this point.
Well, mate, Sue the Fury confirmed his return long time ago… And I (and I think pretty much everyone else around here) can assure you that her spoilers are legit 99,9% of times.
Hashmist,
He’s been 100% confirmed to come back for a few months now. We already know he’ll appear during Snowbowl, which is going to be in 6×09, but the question still is what episode will he be resurrected in.
Hashmist,
Arkash,
Toby Stephens’s unposh 1/2 brother… dangit I dunno….
Hashmist,
I can understand a “need for proof” regarding Jon’s future, especially since it isn’t canon, but would you expect a site like this to ignore and not extrapolate/pontificate even the slightest clue? 🙂 These days, we mix spoilers and speculation easily with each post.
Assuming Jon 2.0 is happening…I am highly interested in key changes to his character and outlook/insight, the ramifications of those changes, and how he (and his changes) are accepted/interpreted by others.
In part it’s a riff on “Bored of the Rings,” the Lord of the Rings parody, when Boromir recites his Dream which now includes the page on which he dies. But it’s also just the fact that prophecies never are straightforward in stories. In some cases, they are riddles. In other cases, they are purposefully vague. In general, they turn out to be ironic: they imply one thing, but wind up meaning something else. So, they are literally true, and yet misleading at the same time.
So, Melisandre cannot have a Prophecy saying “The 2nd Baratheon Son, with a Sword of Flame, a Stick up his Ass, and a two-legged horse for a wife will be the Next Chosen One. And the Cubs lose in 4 to the Mets.” Instead, it has to be some vague thing about Dragonstone, blood, salt, fire, yadda, yadda, where if you read it one way, it might mean one person, but if you read the same words another way, it might mean another person.
Oh, and Jon is certainly coming back. Look at it from the point of view of Literature 101. Jon and Daeny are the two most primary protagonists. The over-arching story will be, more than anything else, derived from how those two evolve in common and uniquely, and how this sets them up to do some analog of Harry Potter going out into the Forest alone. This, much like the assassination attempt on Daeny, and the aftermath (Daeny probably having to deal with the Dothraki wanting her to go to Widow’s Jail, and Jon probably having to deal with being labelled a traitor and deserter from the Watch) is going to lead to important bits of character evolution that will be huge parts of the over-arching Story spanning the 8 seasons (and 7 books if GRRM ever completes them).
heh, just because it is not published does not mean it is not “canon.” GRRM might well have had that chapter written before the series first. (And it might not be published until after the series ends.) And given GRRM’s comments right after the book came out, it’s not like anybody should be too surprised. (I’m still not 100% convinced that he’s actually going to be “resurrected”: I still think that Melisandre might simply “heal” him. Of course, both are equally miraculous and both have about the same meaning for Jon, as he’s a goner without Mel.)
The irony of this is that in many circles, all fantasy is considered “sub-adult” literature. Adding sex and violence does not make any more mature, after all, at least insofar as a lot of people are concerned. (The “escapist” aspect of fantasy, and the lack of the character development seen in Science Fiction is what so many people consider to be “childish” about Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, etc.)
I keep looking at that photo of the grub, that would keep the Mountain alive for about a picosecond .
Wimsey,
Well, …not at all sure what you’re getting at to define adult v. YA, but I’m going with the fact that HP is a story about children, using children protagonists, doing incredibly childish things that all wrap up in a sickly sweet child-like bow clearly designed to be read by children.
And again, ASoIaF is pretty damn dense. GRRM the gardener has planted so much that you can make parallels to pretty much anything. Just because you can make the parallels doesn’t mean they are interesting.
Hodor’s Bastard,
My mind is always taken back to Beric Dondarion’s words to Arya, and I don’t recall the exact quote, but it was basically that every time he is brought back there is a little less of himself than there was before.
Since they are trying to condense such an abundance of story into a television show, I don’t think there is room for throw-away dialogue.
HotPinkLipstick,
I am not Wimsey….but for me the best way to think HP is that the story starts like one is in primary school….but 7 years later…around 17-18 years of age, these “kids” are hardened experienced wizards and face serious life and death issues. The main plot of HP starts out with death and ends that way. It is very easy and fluffy reading in the first few books…but by the time of Prisoner of Azcaban…it gets pretty serious and “stuff” gets very detailed and involved with very adult issues. Actually I say that but most adults will never face this sort of life and death stuff in a lifetime. I don’t know if that is helpful, but there ya go.
Edit: If you call pretty much the destruction of everything Harry and his group know, the death of many friends and all things changing as “wrapped up in a pretty package”. I just have to disagree.
They’re trolling us
Wimsey,
If I had a nickel for every time someone criticized my penchant for watching sci-fi/fantasy as being “escapist” I’d be a very rich woman. The hypocrisy of it is astonishing. Why do most people think they’re watching non-escapist entertainment? They accept the fact that characters can stand a few feet away from a massive explosion without injury or fight for 30 minutes without being utterly exhausted or can get shot in the chest and/or gut and then run somewhere or launch a car into the air jumping over barriers with no ramp, etc, etc. It’s practially all escapist unless it’s a frigging documentary.
I know you’re big on storytelling, but while many were certain Jon was so obviously coming back, you were always writing about how one day you’d think so, another you wouldn’t, in cycle. It wasn’t Lit 101 to you until it was confirmed.
JCDavis,
I agree with you about the development of the story transforming itself in something more than YA. But I believe the point Nymeria Warrior Queen, and probably HotPinkLipstick too were making to Wimsey is that they find the parallels with Asoiaf uninteresting even if they exist and they don’t particularly care to be involved in such debates or discussions.
I may have misunderstood of course, but that’s how I read it. Wimsey is just stubbornly refusing to be deterred or he just may be politely trolling them LOL. I cannot quite make up my mind which is it.
Off-Topic Otto,
Changing one’s mind due to new evidence is not something to be ashamed of; it’s something to be proud of. The same goes for recognizing something as obvious in hindsight; yes, that way he’s recognizing his fallibility, and maybe that he missed something obvious and basic… And why is that a problem? He’s responding to the evidence, changing his theories accordingly, and moving on. Nothing wrong with that.
Wimsey,
The stigma attached to some literary genres is horrendous. For example Kurt Vonnegut and Margaret Atwood refused to accept that by default some of their books go straight into Sci-Fi genre mostly likely because they didn’t think the definition of what that genre is applies to them AND because they were themselves biased against it. But for example Margaret Atwood dystopian “The Handmaid’s Tale” is a book that fits right in. It is also thought provoking and carries a powerful message that you only find in “serious” work. How about Charles McCarthy’s “The Road”? That’s post-apocalyptic fiction that falls under sci-fi. Low and behold it’s awarded a “serious” Pulizer prize! Seven forbid for sci-fi lit to get recognition but there it is.
I think the prejudice will fall eventually and hopefully is sooner rather than later.
Yeah…but the perspectives I mentioned previously will not be “throw-away dialogue”. I expect there to be an abundance of discussion (fearful, skeptical, wonder, ignorance, spiritual, etc.) surrounding Jon 2.0…even his own perspective could be valuable plot insight. Those perspectives (and their ramifications) are going to be superbly interesting throughout S6/TWoW. I am most interested in Wun Wun’s thoughts on the matter, which I hope he delivers eloquently after squashing Olly like a bug.
I know you’re (probably) joking, but… Am I the only one here who is unreasonably excited about Wun Wun? I honestly would be quite happy if he became a recurrent tertiary character, at least on the level of Edd, as one of the wildling leaders.
Sullied by Knight,
I often think about TV Dondarrion and that same statement and I remember that Dondarrion does lose a little of himself with each revival, but even at 6 bring backs he still seems pretty “human” and reasonable. He mentions forgetting smaller things like food used to like (or something similar). So I hope that when JS is brought back that the show doesn’t skip too much and go straight to Berserker Snow.
Of course, book Jon is not truly dead mentally with warning and all and I feel Val will help him way more than Mel. Val is someone I truly, honestly miss being skipped on the TV.
So cool. ++ to you, TW. A related works book club is in order! 🙂
I always thought “The Road” was a massive metaphor for unconditional love and taken vows. Call me crazy, but I relate Brienne’s journey through the post-war Westeros wasteland (levels of hell) to CM’s masterpiece.
Yeah! A few threads back we even pontificated a Wun Wun & Edd spinoff. 🙂
Seriously, I am rather excited about 1-1’s reaction to Jon 2.0, in book and show.
That would be laugh out loud funny… seeing White Walkers rowing a boat to Dorne. Hahahahaa..
There will be two days worth of built-up Hodor load shot all over the place once the next post finally arrives.
Wimsey,
Completely disagree – HP is a children’s book series, ASoIaF is an adult’s book series. You can love or hate them within that context but that is just the way they were written.
TormundsWoman,
While I loved “the road” because it was so disturbing, captivating, and it challenged my emotional well being as a parent- it’s hard for me to see it as falling into the sci fi genre. Like you I will be happy to see genre prejudices fall away- and I believe this will happen naturally to some degree (in the case of scifi) as reality increasingly resembles the scifi settings the stories are based in. They will just be dramas, etc…
Hodor’s Bastard,
Just re watched hardhome last night for the first time since giving it a couple spins when it aired. Wun wun and Edd are great- “the fuck you looking at”… Perhaps this was the gigantic “gun hung on the wall” for the spinoff. Epic foreshadowing. We must needs resolution! Wun and Edd are the new Dunk and Egg!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Wun Wun make Olly go SQUISH!!!
Yes, please, thank you.
This 61 year old disagree’s with you and knows many adults who would also disagree. They are not the same books….one author choose to use more adult themes like sexual preference or sexual situations, the other did not. But both use horrid death, loss of family, loss of friends, battle for good and evil which didn’t go so well. So no….the first book especially is written as tho an 11 year old were telling a tale…but as the years go by, the age does too and the more adult the story gets.
If Wun Wun doesn’t squash Olly like a ripe tomato, I think I might cry. But as long as SOMEONE squashes Olly…I will live. 😉
Hodor’s Bastard,
I haven’t read The Road yet because I was afraid it would be too depressing. Would you recommend it?
Luka Nieto,
No you’re not alone. I really want to see more of him and his interaction with Jon and the role he plays going forward. Wun Wun fans unite!
Hodor’s Bastard,
Take a + away HB for McCarthy! did you see how I baptized him? Charles LOL! Shame, shame, shame TW.
Sister kisser,
That’s funny, because most of the people who are biased against the genre say the same :p. I’m just teasing you!
However the post apocalyptic fiction IS a subgenre of sci fi. Just as alternate universe or space opera. The message and drama the book has, the challenge and emotional charge it carries makes it just as serious as Dostoyevksi’s 19th century Russian Troika universe. Which is the whole point in dropping the prejudice against the genre. Setting doesn’t negate the character’s challenge in carrying for his child well being against the world. It is a father’s battle that feels real. It is ridiculous to ask of sci fi as a genre to NOT have characters in their setting that have real human feelings and development, no?! Bah, I’m not ranting anymore. It’s off topic anyway!
Hi, DP! The Road is very glum but CM’s prose, which takes a bit to get used to, has moments of stunning insight. For those parents who hold their children close as they face the dark world ahead, this is a wrenching read.
JCDavis,
Actually now that I think about it, it might be better for Olly to live until the WW army comes and proves that Jon was right. While Olly is getting torn apart by wights, he might just realize that when he killed Jon he was cutting his nose off to spite his face.
Like you, I want to see the kid bite it, one way or another. Thorne too.
TormundsWoman,
I guess I cannot argue that the post apocalyptic fiction is not a sub-genre of science fiction- so perhaps this is my own subconscious bias coming into play. I didn’t see “the road” as sci fi because of what it contained, but rather what it lacked. Perhaps this is just my perception of what a story requires to present science fiction- Ya know, robots, space travel, alien life forms, amazing medical technology, etc… (And yes, rich characters with compelling story progressions and real conflict)
Dame Pasty,
Perhaps after reading “the road” you will want to pluck Olly out of the long night and drop him into Mccarthys chilling, merciless oblivion. Would be fitting 🙂
Hodor’s Bastard,
Hmmm, will probably make me too sad. I’ll wait until I’m in the right frame of mind, I think.
JCDavis,
Lol, so true. As someone who has read the books and not merely “skimmed” them, there is nothing ” incredibly childish” about the things Harry and his friends get into, through the course of the entire series. And there is nothing “sickly sweet” about the finale, after the multiple deaths and destruction of so many things. It amazes me how some people freely pass judgement on things they haven’t read, seen or experienced.
JCDavis,
While the HP books were certainly not my favorite, and I found the first couple/few really difficult to get through, as the characters grew up, I acknowledge I did find it much less like reading a children’s story, thus more enjoyable. I also think the author became a better writer the more she wrote.
And, yes, Tormund’s Woman, that’s what I was getting at. I get there are some big HP fans here, I just don’t happen to be one of them, so drawing parallels between the stories does nothing for me.
Oh, and so this entire post isn’t off topic…
Count me as a member of Team Wun Wun!!!
I swear, even though I was pretty sure it was Wun Wun for the part of Hardhome when we saw him, but hadn’t heard his name, when Tormund said his name, I literally, and with great glee, said…”Wun-Wun!!!”
Speaking of
Lee asked [GRRM]: Are there any characters in the book you would have liked to see in the TV series?
“Sure. Lady Stoneheart,” he said, referring to the cruel resurrected corpse of Lady Catelyn Stark. “It was a major storyline in the books.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-george-rr-martin-kass-1106-20151106-column.html#
“was?”…
“major?”…
That implies quite a bit, imho. I’m surprised he only mentioned the female missing characters. Interesting.
Hodor’s Bastard, That’s what I thought, too.
Rygritte,
Hodor’s Bastard,
That does seem to imply quite a bit- as far as the show is concerned. I still think her role in TWOW will be significant- and she will be glorious in all her undying vengeance….
Nikolaj is in Belfast
https://twitter.com/NCW_Spain/status/664172706280120321
H.Stark,
NCW has been filming a lot, hasn’t he? I guess we ll be seeing a lot of Jaime next season. Yay!!
Pilou Asbaek has been cast as Batou in the new Ghost In the Shell movie alongside Scarlett Johannson! He hasn’t even appeared in an episode yet and he’s already landed an awesome gig – very cool.
Edit: not saying he got the part because of GoT, but now I’m even more excited to see him as Euron. He must have really good range if he’s playing Euron Greyjoy and Batou (they don’t have anything in common as characters).
I guess the news is slowing down since filming is almost over.
Oooh, haven’t heard that they’re making a movie! I enjoyed the anime quite a bit. Anything cyberpunkish is right up my alley.
TormundsWoman,
Keep the ++ given to you by Hodor’s Bastard for mentioning “The Road.” You were correct to “baptize” the author as “Charles” McCarthy, as that was, indeed, his birth name. Sources differ on whether he or his family later changed his name to “Cormac.”