We have a big category up for voting today in the Watchers on the Wall Awards: Best Episode! It’s a tad easier this year, as we only have six episodes to choose from, but they’re six episodes packed with love, action, death, blood, and epic drama, from start to finish. We’ve provided a summary for each one, in case you haven’t had time for a rewatch lately and need a bit of refreshing. Read, remember, cry, think it over, and vote for your favorite episode of the final season of Game of Thrones!
Episode 1, “Winterfell”
Written by Dave Hill and directed by David Nutter
The royal procession arrives in Winterfell, and Jon is reunited with Arya and Bran. The Northern lords meet and question dangers to come. Tyrion and Sansa discuss their marriage and the current situation. Jon goes on his first dragon ride, with Daenerys. Arya has a less than tender reunion with the Hound, and a warmer one with Gendry. Daenerys and Sam meet and he learns of his father and brother’s deaths. Euron presents Cersei with the Golden Company, and she gives in to his advances. Theon rescues Yara, and decides to return to Winterfell to defend it. Bronn is sent away with a new mission. Sam reveals to Jon that Jon is Aegon, son of Rhaegar Targaryen- and heir to the Iron Throne. Last Hearth and the Umbers are discovered to have been attacked by the army of the dead, with young Ned Umber reanimated as he’s pinned to the wall. Jaime Lannister arrives in Winterfell, under the watchful eye of Bran Stark.
Episode #2, “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”
Written by Bryan Cogman and directed by David Nutter
Jaime stands trial for his crimes before Daenerys and the people of the North. Later, he and Bran meet in the godswood to reckon with their past. Afterward, Jaime shares a warm and honest reunion with his brother Tyrion, and offers to serve with Brienne as she prepares for the battle. Arya visits Gendry in the forge and requests a custom weapon. Jorah encourages Daenerys to forgive Tyrion for his lapses in judgment. Sansa and Dany face off in a private meeting and find some common ground and conflict. Theon is welcomed home to Winterfell. Grey Worm promises Missandei he’ll take her home to Naath someday. The leaders makes plans for the battle and consider what the Night King really wants: to destroy the memory of the world. People gather around the fire to pass the time until the army of the dead arrive. Arya and Gendry get a lot closer. Sam gives Jorah the sword Heartsbane, while Jorah shares a moment with young Lady Mormont. Around the fire, Brienne of Tarth is knighted by Jaime Lannister. Tyrion asks for a song, and Pod Payne sings “Jenny of Oldstones”. Jon tells Dany the truth about his parentage, and the dead arrive at Winterfell.
Episode 3, “The Long Night”
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss and directed by Miguel Sapochnik
Melisandre returns unexpectedly and lights the Dothraki arakhs, but their fiery charge is snuffed out quickly. A first wave of Unsullied and catapults also fares poorly against a tide of wights. Jon and Dany take to the air with dragons, blasting wights, but the White Walkers fight back. The Unsullied are ordered to retreat. In the battle, Sam is surrounded and nearly killed but saved by Dolorous Edd, who is then killed. Melisandre lights the trenches around the castle. In the crypts with Varys and the women, Tyrion regrets his powerlessness, but Sansa reminds him he’ll be needed in the time to come. The Night King directs the wight to break through the trenches, and Winterfell is breached. Brienne and Jaime fight together, and Sandor Clegane freezes; he breaks through with Beric’s encouragement to help Arya. Lyanna Mormont takes on a giant, and kills him with her last breath. Arya sneaks through the library, and reunites with Sandor, Beric, and Melisandre. Dragons and their riders battle in the skies over Winterfell. The Night King falls to the ground, and Dany learns that even dragonfire cannot kill him. The Night King resurrects everyone that has fallen this night, and the dead in Winterfell’s crypts, who attack the unarmed women and children inside. Dany and Drogon are swarmed by wights, and Jorah comes to Dany’s aid; he dies of his injuries. Wounded Viserion blasts Winterfell with blue fire as the battle rages on and Jon runs. Theon and other shoot the dead in the godswood, defending Bran, until the Night King kills Theon. Arya saves Bran at the last second, slaying the Night King, causing all White Walkers to shatter, and all wights to fall where they stand. At dawn, Melisandre leaves Winterfell and dies.
Episode 4, “The Last of the Starks”
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss and directed by David Nutter
The battle’s dead are given a funeral pyre, and Jon eulogizes them. At the feast, Dany legitimizes Gendry, Davos and Tyrion ponder Melisandre’s death and the future, and Tormund toasts Jon as the hero and king, while Dany watches on. Jaime, Brienne, Pod and Tyrion play a drinking game. Drunk and jealous Jaime later shows up in Brienne’s room and the two of them make love. Sansa and Sandor have a conversation about how far they’ve come since they saw each other last. High on life Gendry tracks down Arya and proposes, but she gently lets him down. Dany and Jon kiss and struggle with his recent revelation. The war council takes stock of their assets and allies, and decide they must head south toward Dragonstone and King’s Landing. The last of the Starks meet in the godswood. Bronn confronts Tyrion and Jaime, and makes a deal. Arya and Sandor hit the Kingsroad. Jon says goodbye to his friends in the North. Sansa shares the secret of Jon’s parentage with Tyrion; he reveals it to Varys and the two ponder the far-reaching ramifications. The fleet is attacked by Euron, Rhaegal the dragon is killed, and Missandei is captured. Cersei gloats. Tyrion and Varys consider their options, especially now that a new contender for the throne has been presented. Jaime receives a raven informing him of a new threat to Cersei; he departs Winterfell. Daenerys and her army meet with Cersei at the gates of the city. Missandei is executed.
Episode 5, “The Bells”
Written by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss and directed by Miguel Sapochnik
Daenerys grieves, and Varys plots and makes a choice. Varys is executed by dragonfire. Jon pledges loyalty to Dany but rejects her romantic overtures. Dany and her advisors make plans for attacking King’s Landing. Tyrion frees his brother and says goodbye to Jaime. Dany and Drogon destroy Euron’s fleet, and they and the Unsullied annihilate the Golden Company. Lannisters surrender and the bells ring, but Daenerys snaps and scorches King’s Landing. Northmen attack, and Jon kills one of his own men assaulting a woman. Jaime runs into Euron and the two give each other mortal wounds. Sandor urges Arya to walk away from her path of vengeance and survive. Sandor confronts The Mountain, as Cersei escapes quietly, and the brothers duel to the death. Cersei and Jaime reunite, just before the Red Keep collapses and kills them. Arya runs through the city, dodging fire and explosions; she tries to help a mother and daughter but fails. Waking up in the rubble of the city, she finds a horse and rides away.
Episode 6, “The Iron Throne”
Written and directed by David Benioff & D.B. Weiss.
The survivors take in the devastation of King’s Landing; Tyrion discovers his sibling’s bodies. Grey Worm executes surviving Lannister men, to Jon’s horror. Daenerys gives a celebratory speech, and Tyrion quits. Tyrion pushes Jon to see how dangerous Daenerys is and to take action. Jon urges forgiveness, and Daenerys counters with her vision of the world. Rejecting it, Jon kills Daenerys. Drogon melts the Iron Throne and carries away Dany’s body. Lords meet at the Dragonpit, debate and choose a new leader for Westeros with Tyrion’s persuasion: Bran Stark. Tyrion and Jon meet in prison and muse over what’s happened. The Starks say farewell at the docks. Brienne writes in the final details of Jaime’s paige in the Kingsguard’s Book of Brothers. The new Small Council meets, they squabble over administrative details, and Samwell presents “A Song of Ice and Fire.” Sansa is crowned Queen in the North. Arya goes on a journey to finally find out what is west of Westeros. Jon returns to the Wall and reunites with Tormund and Ghost. He goes north with wildings, and we see that grass is growing, and spring is coming.
Final round rules: To choose the winner, cast your vote in the poll below. In the finals, unlike the preliminaries, fans have one vote to cast. At the end of one week (Monday 11/18/19 at 12PM ET), the episode with the most votes will be the winner! The results of the polls will be revealed during the live Watchers on the Wall Awards ceremony, specific date to be announced in the near future!
#serbrienne
Going with my first instinct. This may be my favorite episode of the series. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.
I’m going to have to abstain from this one. Each episode had something so ridiculously exciting or so fabulously wonderful about it. As I read each synopsis, I thought ,”Oh, this is the best!” But as I moved on to the next, I would change my mind. So, I’m out on this vote.
The Long Night.
I chose episode 5, I don’t think I’ve been this emotional about any episode before, the pure horror ..Oh my..
closely followed by episode 3.
I assume Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is going to win this one.
I liked that episode, but in all honesty, if it wasn’t for the knighting of Brienne portion of the episode, this one would be fairly middling for me.
Episodes 1, 4, and 6 are off the table for me right away, and I wasn’t as high on episode 2 as others were, so that really leaves episodes 3 and 5 for me to choose from.
I haven’t voted yet, but I think I’m voting for “The Long Night”.
On Gold Derby E2 and E3 were nominated for best episodes of the year and The Long Night won.
mau,
I’m assuming episode 2 is going to win mainly due to feedback on this site. The episode in season 8 that gets regularly praised here is episode 2 and only WOTW votes count for this. We’ll see though.
Mr Derp,
I agree that that episode will win here. But Gold Derby is not GoT fan site so their voters are more neutral.
It’s Rogue One of GoT’s fandom. Fine but completely overrated. And it’s easy for this episode not to be devisive because there is no plot in it. It doesn’t challenge viewer’s expectations or interpretations in any way.
I genuinely loved every episode in Season 8, and I considered four of the six for this award (all due respect to “Winterfell” and “The Last of the Starks”). I expect “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” will win this poll, and it will be very worthy if does. I strongly considered voting for “The Long Night”, because I thought it was masterfully done and Arya’s destruction of the Night King is an all-time great moment. I also considered “The Iron Throne”, because I’m personally deeply satisfied with how this series ended, and it contains several sequences (Drogon carrying Dany away, the White Book, and the Starks’ closing montage) that wreck me to this day.
But apparently I’m fated to love the especially polarizing ones, because for me, there was ultimately one clear choice.
Best Episode: “The Bells”
I thought “The Long Night” would be the longest, most intense cardiac arrest that Game of Thrones would ever deliver for me. Then they topped it, in terms of filmmaking excellence, character-based tension and pure emotional agony. I was so invested in everything that was happening to every character on screen that there were times when it felt like my heart was about to tear its way out of my rib cage, and times when every part of me (especially the part of me that loves Daenerys Targaryen) was silently screaming for it all to stop. And yet, even as it was all happening, I knew deep down that every twist and turn that this story has taken has led us here, and that whatever hopes I had once harbored for how things might turn out … this was the story that I had signed up for. As absolutely heart-wrenching as it is, it all fits.
Jon and Dany’s scene by the fire tore my heart out … and that’s why it was so good. I wanted so, so badly for Jon and Dany to be happy together, and I held on to that hope tightly with every ounce of strength I could muster … and this was the moment that my grip finally broke and I felt it all falling away. When Dany said the words “All right, then … let it be fear,”, I felt my spine freeze and my stomach sink through the floor. I don’t know if I’ve ever been more terrified or more heartbroken at any point watching this show.
Tyrion and Jaime’s farewell was such a beautiful, tragic reflection of the Season 4 scene where Jaime freed Tyrion. At that time, the two brother thought that might be their final goodbye. This time, they know it. When Tyrion broke down talking about how he never would have survived his childhood without Jaime, and the way he clung to him like he never wanted to let go, even though he knew that he had too … I broke down as well. Peter Dinklage, man. I know he’s won four Emmys for this role, but it somehow still feels like he’s underappreciated.
Clegane Bowl surpassed all of my expectations. That haunting, majestic shot of the Hound ascending the stairs to face the Mountain as the Red Keep crumbles around them and King’s Landing burns in the background … if you asked me to define “Epic Fantasy” in a single image, that would be the one I’d choose. The fight itself was gruesome, brutal, and ugly … and yet felt classically beautiful in the scope of its impact and tragedy. And that final shot of the two of them going into the fire together … My God.
Jaime and Cersei’s death, for me, never could have happened any other way. Jaime and Cersei have been two of my favorite characters in this story, and Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Lena Headey have been two of my favorite actors. And they were INCREDIBLE in their final moments together. So much of what Cersei and Jaime have done in their lives, together and apart, has been tied up in those walls of the Red Keep – the things that they’ve done for power, for their children, for each other, for the realm … for love. I thought everything about it worked, and that image of the Lannister twins holding one another, leaving the world together just as they came into it, was perfect.
Arya and the Pale Horse … I loved everything that happened with Arya in this episode, but this sequence in particular was so beautiful and ethereal that it felt like it transcended reality in the best possible way. Arya had my favorite arc of any character this season … from killing the literal manifestation of Death to finally rediscovering her humanity and choosing life as death rains down around her, and this sequence, following her farewell with Sandor and her desperate attempt to escape the city was a gorgeous capstone for it.
So … yeah. “The Bells” is a Top 5 episode of the entire series for me, easily. Bravo, David Benioff, Dan Weiss, Miguel Sapochnick, GRRM, and every member of the cast and crew. You successfully destroyed me, and all I can say is thank you. No matter what anyone else says, I’ll be rewatching this one for years if not decades to come.
Jared,
The episode was very subversive , and in an extremely brutal way. It basically punished you for rooting for epic battles and dragons for the past 7 seasons. Oh, you think battles are cool, well lets make this battle a horrifying massacre. You think sacking a city is no big deal? Lets show you what actually happens during a sack where mass rapes and killings are normal. You think the dragons are cool because we played heroic music in the previous seasons? Well now we’re not going to play any music and all you’ll hear are the screams of the dying. You thought your hero could take the almighty throne without becoming a villain? Guess again.
Jared,
Your post inspired me to reread great review of this episode on AV Club:
“Ask not for whom the bell tolls,” goes the famous paraphrasing of John Donne’s sermon. “It tolls for thee.” The bitter truth of this aphorism—that the loss of any life is a loss for all—gets a brutal workout in the aptly named “The Bells,” arguably the best representation of George R.R. Martin’s deconstruction of fantasy tropes we’ve seen in several seasons. The bells of King’s Landing, it turns out, don’t toll for the loss of Cersei’s authority. They toll for the loss of everyone in the city, quite literally. This story began as a way to invert the cliched stereotypes of the hero’s journey, to twist the traditional narrative of swords and sorcery in a radical way and rethink how such epics are delivered. This episode brings that philosophy home. There are no good wars; any battle that begins with hearty cheering should end with somber melancholy; it doesn’t matter who the good guys and bad guys are in the face of death; nobody wants to die; the chaos of war makes villains and victims of us all.
The simplest rejoinder to all of Daenerys’ justifications is that this bloodshed could have been avoided. She was given a moment to choose, and she chose blind vengeance, the kind that eliminates any benevolence she hoped to bring to the seven kingdoms by burning it right out of the minds of anyone who saw her astride Drogon, mowing down men, women, and children with abandon. It gives the lie to her name for this fight, “The Last War.” There will be another, of course—maybe it will be led by the child who watched as her mother’s throat was cut in the streets by the so-called liberators of King’s Landing. Violence begets violence, and the only people still remaining will do the very thing that the living were fighting to preserve during the battle against the Night King: They’ll remember, and keep the memory of this bloodbath alive.”
You’re right that there aren’t as many controversial elements to the episode, but it did challenge some Arya fans. Even though Maisie was 22, many still had trouble seeing her sleep with Gendry since they still thought of her as being 11. For me, I thought it was a well done scene and made perfect sense for her character. The artistry in “The Bells” in particular could win my vote if I keep thinking about it. Just the magnitude of work that went into both the bells and the long night was breathtaking. Seeing the “Revealed” episodes gave me even more appreciation to what went into the building and destruction of KL. But I have to go by my own reactions. I’ve re-watched episode 2 at least seven times. Perhaps more. I rewatched it the night it was on and the next day. I can’t say the same about any other episode in season 8. I did eventually rewatch several of the other episodes as well, but it wasn’t even close to the number of rewatches of episode 2 for me. Maybe it’s more the emotions than the artistry. I’ve said this before, but along with Jenny of Oldstones I was not ready to leave. BC’s love of the characters came through as others have said. It just got me. And Brienne’s smile will live forever. Knowing that the series was ending was part of it. It just captured what I was feeling and it was a great send off for the characters. Many did end up surviving The Long Night. I remember thinking not many were safe! But even though more than I thought survived the Long Night, so many more of them didn’t make it til the end.
mau,
And this is why I love Game of Thrones and its ending.
mau,
I remember reading that one as well! It was one of the few I did read – by that point in the season, was trying to severely cut back on the number of recaps and reviews I was reading, lest I went insane. My go-to for this episode, with similar themes as the piece you outlined, was Sean T. Collins at Rolling Stone (one of the architects of Boiled Leather, BTW). https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-recaps/game-of-thrones-recap-season-8-episode-5-the-bells-832998/
In a separate post for Vulture, he named “The Bells” as his choice for the best episode of the entire series (one of three Season 8 episodes in his Top 10) https://www.vulture.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-episodes-ranked.html
“This war crime was a long time coming, and the seeds had been planted since the start. No, I’m not talking about the innumerable people whose execution by Dany went excused because they were nominally “bad guys.” I’m talking about Bran falling from the tower. Viserys Targaryen and Robert Baratheon and Khal Drogo failing to survive a single season. Ned Stark losing his head. Jaime Lannister losing his hand. The Red Wedding. The Purple Wedding. The Red Viper. The death of the dragons.
“Every single swerve that upended what the story seemed to be about was building to this moment: A self-styled liberator perpetrating a massacre on a previously unimaginable scale, both as an in-story act of violence and an on-screen work of filmmaking. This is the show, and it always has been. Game of Thrones forces you to look. Long may it burn.”
Unveiling the parchment that was sent to his crumbling manor, Lord Parramandas reads the list of chapters and immediately knows what to circle. He remembers the specific tome he kept writing in past 8+ years, the tome he removed from the manor’s sublevels to make sure no unwanted eyes ever get to see its pages. He remembers after all 73 chapters were written, each chapter was assigned a number from 1 to 73, depending on how much he enjoyed it. He still live remembers the numbers assigned to these 6 chapters on the voting chart: 38, 34, 1, 30, 5 and 13. It’s so obviously clear which chapter to vote for. He takes a quill in his hand and circles “The Long Night”, the chapter marked with number 1 – the chapter that’s not just his favorite one among the 6, not only his favorite one among the 73 chapters of this journey, but one of his very favorite TV chapters of all time, tied only with two LOST episodes. The feelings and thrill this episode woke in him is unrivaled even though he has very very fond memories of all 73 chapters. Wrapping up the parchment, he summons his raven, sending it into the direction where the gathering was called. After that, he again leaves the place.
I suspect this will be close between episodes 2 & 3 myself. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is fantastically written, whilst episode 3 is an amazing achievement on a TV screen.
The Bells for me.
Although the first half of The Iron Throne was superb, and I only wish they had ended the episode with Drogon carrying Daenerys away. I would rather they had made a separate episode for the conclusion and gone deeper into the aftermath of her death.
Apart from anything else, ‘The Bells’ had the only moment of the series that spontaneously brought tears to my eyes.
I know it’s a controversial episode but The Bells I thought was the best.
I thought about going with the Iron Throne, but that dragon pit scene… I do like the Long Night, but I have too many issues with it to name it the best overall. Winterfell is fine, but nothing special, it was a good set up episode. So it has to be Knight of the 7 Kingdoms by default.
Grandmaester Flash,
I feel the same about the Iron Throne, my first instinct was to go with that, but I have the same issue and that pulled me back. There is a lot to like about it though, i’d probably rank it 2nd in the season.
Between A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and The Iron Throne, but ultimately had to go for A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.
Agreed. They really didn’t explain exactly how the wheel was broken or what the plan for succession is after Bran dies. Aren’t there going to be warring factions fighting for control of the Iron Throne like we just saw? Especially since there is no succession plan or protocol?
Tyrion claimed that the wheel was broken because control of the IT will no longer be determined by blood. HOWEVER, very few of the recent kings/queens in GoT took over because of blood right, so I have to confess that the succession plan for Westeros was rather short-sided and meaningless in the end.
They also now have Big Brother watching every move that the citizens of KL make, but we’re supposed to be good with this because….Bran.
The future of Westeros is not set up for success, IMO.
Tron79,
Totally agree. Beautifully written and photographed, very satisfying and more like the original seasons in detailed dialogue. Very heartening episode.
Guinevere J,
Guinevere J,
Episode 2 was one of the best episodes of television I’ve seen, period. Thanks BCogs, your love of the characters really did come through, as you said. ❤
Pigeon,
“I fought for you, didn’t I?”
I voted for episode 2… 🙂
Jenny,
(I’m sorry for the off-topic but can you give me your 🙂 or 🙁 rating of HDM this week??)
I have very difficult to decide. All the episodes had something for me that made it amazing. Even episode 1. Sam learning his father and brother is death, Jon revelation, Thormund, Daenerys entering WF.
Episode 2 had the knighting of Brienne, Pod singing. So which of these 2 would win. Episode 2.
Episode 3, had one of the most stunning visuals i ever saw on screen. I loved it from beginning to end. Which one I rather watch again 2 or 3. I think 2, how much I love 3 and what kind of master peace it is from beginning to end, for me the battle was too long for being in one episode. I choose 2.
Episode 4, first half of the episode is my second favorite part of the season, the aftermath of the long night, starts with a tear ends with laughter. But the second part was too rushed for me. Would this be 2 episodes I think the after party would have been my second favorite episode of the season. Still episode 2.
Episode 5, amazing stunning episode, visually amazing, death’s were tear-breaking for me. But I think I would rather watch episode 2 again.
Episode 6. Same as 4, but here the first half is in fact my favorite part of the season, I would watch that part over and over again. The second part is here the problem for me. The first part of the second part lacks for me, the build-up towards “What comes after”, it stalled for a moment till of course the last 15 minutes which were brilliant. I love the montage of the Starks, Brienne filling in the White Book.
Episode 2 wins it for me, it’s an episode that I can watch from beginning to end without having a single issue with it. I would not skip a single scene, or feel like “This episode is too long why not 2 episodes”, it feels like the episode should be.
Adrianacandle,
Oh yes, its a slightly more enthusiastic 🙂 this week. The pace is a bit slower and its better for it I think. I don’t think I like fast paced TV you know, I’m noticing it about myself recently.
YAY! Okay, I’m very excited now!
(Yes, me too. I think I need a nice balance — if it’s too slow, I start checking out. If it’s too rushed, I’m disappointed or it can be too much. I suppose it’s like Goldilocks and the Three Bears 🙂 I think Breaking Bad did a nice job with that balance — despite season 5 being torturously split INTO TWO right after that huge cliffhanger )
That was easy to vote: A knight of the seven kingdoms. For me one of the best episodes ever. Knighting Brienne was so beautifully done, I can’t remember how many times I rewatched that scene. And the song about Jenny of Oldstones was the cherry on the cake. So haunting, just loved it.
Jared,
“Sandor! … Thank you.”
Argh! I can’t decide. “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” or “The Bells”?
Well this one is probably going to be the hardest vote because they were all brilliant. Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss did a brilliant job with the final season and every storyline and character came to a satisfying and epic conclusion. I’m going with “The Iron Throne” because they completely nailed the series finale and everything was so earned after the previous 72 episodes. Just wow. I’ll never know how they did it, but they tied up everything brilliantly and gave me the greatest ending of all time. Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss, I’ll always be grateful. Can’t wait for the next rewatch.
*sniff* ❤
I mean, it was brilliant. Just brilliant. Probably the most brilliant thing of brilliance ever.
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was the ONLY good episode, also it was the only episode that felt like Game of Thrones.
The other episodes were benioff and weiss doing bad fan service, bad fan fiction, and bad writing to the actors (when they should have been writing characters).
This was quite hard. I enjoyed all the episodes and for this vote, I was torn between ‘Knight’ and ‘Bells’. ‘Knight’ was the last time we saw nearly all of the characters we have come to love and it felt like a love letter to them. The writing team knew where the story was going (not even just The Long Night but afterwards) so they wanted this episode to stand as a breather to spend with the characters. I remember watching the last 15 mins or so again the night before TLN…the real last time.
‘Bells’ just had my jaw on the floor for its sheer balls, incredible imagery/cinematography (those long shots with Arya, that Hound/Mountain shot on the stairs, music, performances (another vote for Tyrion and Jaime’s last scene together as well as the rest of it). It may have shown stuff we didn’t want to see: Dany’s choice, Cersei and Jaime dying in such a way, The Hound dying…at all and initially I didn’t know how to feel about some of it but taking a step back, I can see the tragedy and the poetry in those moments. Admittedly not having rewatched S8 since broadcast (I will when my ltd complete set arrives), it is those two episodes that still resonate the most, with Long Night probably as 3rd.
It really appalled me to see headlines like ‘GoT has been damaged beyond repair’ after ‘The Bells’ (I didn’t actually read that article, not sure I want to) and such bile-driven responses (the low imdB scores, other reviews). I was blown away by the episode. But then for me, the whole hype train for S8 just exploded in completely the wrong ways and soured the ending of the show for me, not the show itself. I imagine binge-watching S8 in a bubble, leaving it and being like ‘Wha…..’ If there’s one thing I’ve found from numerous TV series and movies in the last ten years, it is that taking a step back helps. I’ve hyped myself up for episodes/movies before, felt slightly disappointed by them but then reflected less on what I thought would happen/wanted to happen and what was actually put in front of me, why those decisions were made etc. Even if I still question decisions afterwards and wonder ‘what if…’, it at least makes me more amenable to the creative vision actually given to me so that I can appreciate it more. I don’t know what I thought the ending of GoT would be, maybe a ‘happier’ ending would have been the wrong one (and no doubt people would have written countless articles saying so even if fan/audience response was perhaps more favourable overall) but there are numerous things that have popped into my head or images that have resurfaced from the final episodes that resonate thematically (Dany standing by the Throne with the remnants of a throne room wall in the background…that’s just it, right there). It has been heartening to see the comments on here over the past few months: interesting discussions highlighting things I hadn’t thought of, reasonably healthy disagreement. I don’t get that elsewhere…in reviews of other TV programmes e.g. a review of Dublin Murders starring Conleth Hill who was apparently ‘getting his own back for his meh death in GoT’ (pretty much the actual quote). My heart sinks when I read something related to GoT, its production or cast members now because I know that in the vast majority of cases, the default setting of snide cynicism won’t be able to stop the writer from sticking the boot in even if it’s minimally related to GoT. I suppose I’m used to it from other franchises but it still saddens me.
I voted KOT7K because it was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. I remember how much hope I had then
The Bells was perhaps more emotionally devastating, also very effective. Solid second place.
Ten Bears,
So good. So, so good! 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
I’m very glad that you’re showing some love to the series finale! Personally, I thought it was quiet, reflective, and overall beautifully done. Everything up through the moment when Drogon melted the Iron Throne and flew off with Dany’s body was tight as a wire and note-perfect for me. The second half of the episode – namely the Great Council sequence – was a bit more sprawling as they sought to tie up all of the loose ends, but I’m fine with that. It’s in keeping with the nature of epilogue-type storytelling. And the ending – especially that absolutely gorgeous final montage culminating with Jon disappearing into the Real North – was well worth it.
Also, the visuals in that episode, especially the first half? Outstanding. David and Dan obviously had access to some immensely talented directors during the show’s run, but they’re pretty damn good at it themselves.
By the way, I sincerely appreciate your continued unabashed appreciation for the people who brought us this all-time great show. We all have our own unique feelings about how things ended and how it ties into the show as a whole, and who knows – over time those feelings may evolve. But whatever comes, I can honestly say that I don’t believe that I will ever love another show as much as I loved and continue to love this one. It was truly a once in a lifetime thing.
I cast my vote for Episode #2, “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”, no hesitation.
I loved it. To this day there are so many scenes that bring back memories and the feels, even without reading the recap. The episode stuck the landing all around.
Jared,
The scene in the finale episode when Dany is in the throne room an Jon looks like he materializes from behind her was a really gorgeous visual. The whole episode was but that part really stood out to me.
Jared,
Also from “The Bells” S8e05…
Here’s a scene with no dialogue that I rewatch just for the music and visuals:
1:06 – 1:11 Arya framed in silhouette
1:53 – 2:08 Arya calms the white horse
Season 8 is a season in which every episode was, in my opinion, better than the last.
Episode 1 was strong, though mostly predictable set-up.
Episode 2 was a lovely “small” episode. It was reflective and bittersweet, though still nothing really surprising happened.
Episode 3 was a huge spectacle. It was tense and it had two huge twists (Arya kills the NK and the WW are over!). that took me a few days to accept them.
Episode 4 I really loved it. It was a return to character drama at its best. The first two-thirds of the episode were just great, with the aftermath of the battle and the set-up of the final conflict. I enjoyed it more than the first three episodes, to be honest.
And then came Episode 5.
This is the episode that had the ultimate twist.
Jared,
As Jared explained so beautifully, the twist was heartbreaking and yet, absolutely logical. It was there from the beginning, but we didn’t want to see it. It was amongst the best fucking episodes GoT has ever produced. The battle was impressive (IMO much more than the Battle of Winterfell), and more importantly, hugely dramatic. It was a tragedy that surpassed the Red Wedding for me.
I thought GoT could get no better.
But the last episode proved me wrong once again.
The last episode was, IMO, simply perfect, or as perfect as GoT can get. Tyrion finding the bodies of his siblings, Dany’s terrifying speech as the Queen of Ashes, Jon and Tyrion’s long conversation and Jon and Dany’s final scene were all awesome. And the visual image of Drogon carrying Dany to the East was beautiful.
But there was even more. The gathering of the nobles of Westeros wasn’t specially powerful (but Tyrion’s speech about the power of stories was!), but then we had Jon saying goodbye to Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran. And Brienne writing about Jaime. And the funny Small Council scene – live goes on. And then the final montage. And (fuck yeah!) Jon reunited with Ghost (I did cry here), reunited with the real North, free from his obligations, going North, going home.
It was the perfect finale I wanted.
Jared,
Ironically, no matter how controversial the ending was I think that Tyrion’s speech about power of stories will be quoted in the years to come, every time someone makes a video about GoT.
It was there even in tribute that Academy made for GoT.
mau,
Another quote from AV Club review:
“What unites people?” Tyrion asks. “Stories.” As I discussed back in episode two of this season, Game Of Thrones has always been a story about stories, a narrative about narratives, and in letting Tyrion articulate his theory regarding what brings people together in common ideology, the show properly swallows its own tail, coming full circle to put its practice to use in service of its internal story. What makes it effective is precisely the way it peels back the bones of Tyrion’s narrative to expose the sneaky tactical efficacy of his rhetoric. Bran does indeed have one hell of a story, one that could inspire the kind of support and widespread conviction that Tyrion hopes it will. But here’s the thing: properly articulated, so does Sansa Stark. With the right eloquence, Arya Stark does, too. Hell, string together enough honeyed words, and you could make the ordeals undergone by Samwell Tarly or Edmure Tully sound like the makings of a true king. It’s the story that matters.
Ultimately, however, that’s also why Bran’s story comes out on top. His isn’t just a tale of extraordinary actions and overcoming adversity. It’s literally the tale of a man who holds their shared history in his mind, who knows more than anyone in the land about just what Westeros and its people have endured through the generations and conflicts that shaped it. Bran isn’t just a great story—he’s literally the repository of all the stories. He’s the living embodiment of the land and its cultural memory. In selecting Bran Stark, the lords of Westeros are choosing to value these stories and memories above whatever other qualities might make a good ruler.
Ten Bears,
You know I love this scene!!!! This scene alone made me think about voting for the bells…..but had to go with my gut on AKOTSK. If we had a vote for my favorite sequence, this would be it. I asked for the new Photo book for Chanukah. I hope some of Arya’s shots from the bells are in there!!
Someone else on WotW said this shot reminded them of the style of a particular Japanese director, and I didn’t write the director’s name down at the time. Does anyone recall who they were referring to?
(in the book btw they talk about Pale Mare’s alot… One is a plague, but also a few other times are actual pale mare horses for prophesies, and I know we’ve talked about the Pale Mare as a biblical prophesy as well…So it seems fitting that Arya rides off on a pale mare…)…… Around 1:05 is the shot I told you about Ten Bears It’s the shot of the ash snow falling while Arya stands between the two buildings in the background.
Episode 4, “The Last of the Starks” –
Sansa and Sandor finally talk to each other again… the scene could have and should have been so much better.
oierem,
”Season 8 is a season in which every episode was, in my opinion, better than the last.”
At first, when I read that I thought you meant that every one of the first five episodes of Season 8 was better than the last episode.
After reading your comment I realize you meant that each episode topped the one that preceded it.
(*Pulls out dictionary to look up “lexical ambiguity”*)
Tron79,
”Around 1:05 is the shot I told you about Ten Bears It’s the shot of the ash snow falling while Arya stands between the two buildings in the background.”
Yes you did! And that’s why I went back and watched it again … and rewatched it many times thereafter… and included it as one of the references to the two segments of the video.
Every episode had something I loved, I went with Ep 2 not because of Brienne’s knighting, but for all the OTHER emotional scenes, 6 was my other choice with 1 also close.
I did not hate any episodes.
my S8 episodes ranking
3>5>2>4>1>6
Thanks!! You probably know this but I believe it can be deduced that this was her wrap scene. She talks about how she was covered in dirt. I’ll have to go back and find the interview. Originally I thought that may have been the end of her arc when she survived and rode off choosing life because I remembered it was her wrap scene but they do shoot out of order!
The white horse was calm. No one would near a calm horse the way Arya did to calm a calm horse.
I didn’t like espacially this scene.
*sorry*
Tron79,
I’ve been intrigued by all of the theories about the white horse’s symbolism.
Upon rewatch, I thought it was conspicuous that the camera zoomed in for a POV close-up of the charred toy horse, and then seconds later Arya looked up and noticed a real horse had appeared.
What it all means? Not sure. 🤔 (Or maybe it was a callback to Sandor in S4e1: When the little lady wants a pony, the little lady gets a pony – a white one specifically.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h02JHf8m_sI
0:32 – 0:42 Charred toy horse
0:56 White horse appears.
There is a theory that Sandor’s spirit was in the horse to help Arya one last time. Someone told me she thought the horse resembled Sandor with the way the mane was combed and the horse’s burns. Hard to say. Arya did calm the horse some though in the scene. But if it wasn’t your favorite I get it.
I had to go with The Long Night. It was a cinematic masterpiece and was my second favorite episode of the entire series, though I’m bracing myself for A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms victory. It wasn’t a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination, it just wasn’t one of my favorites. Personally, I thought The Laws of Gods and Men was Bryan Cogman’s best episode by far. My episode rankings for season 8 would be:
1. The Long Night
2. The Bells
3. The Iron Throne
4. The Last of the Starks
5. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms
6. Winterfell
Juan,
Season 8 was more anti-fan service than fan service. In fact, Episode 2 was probably the most fan service of them all. After that, D&D stayed true to their story and characters and brought each of their arcs to an incredible conclusion.
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. It had it all, really. Davos, Tormund, Arya, Beric, Sandor, …
cos alpha,
Fine. She shushed the horse. She didn’t “calm” it.
I’m not the Master of Horses. 😉
Also, I don’t understand what you mean that: “No one would near a calm horse the way Arya did to calm a calm horse.”
(That wasn’t an allusion to A Girl = No One, was it?)
Jared,
First time I’ve been on here in a while. Great to read one of your refreshingly positive comments about what I think is a brilliant episode of television, unfairly maligned by many. Voted the same way.
Juan,
Sorry to burst your bubble kid, but that “bad fan fiction” is like 80% Martin’s endgame.
I believe you are exactly right. Check out this compilation video of some of the actors’ last days on set. It appears to show Maisie Williams, in costume, giving her tearful farewell to the cast and crew immediately after finishing filming that scene in “The Bells.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxD3itzE-lQ
at 0:14 on
I don’t remember seeing part of her actual farewell speech! Thanks!! I deduced it from a different interview when she described what it was like going back to her trailer being covered with dirt after her wrap. It sounded like that scene to me.
Fairly easy choice for me: “A knight of the seven kingdoms”. Outstanding from the first to the last scene. That’s rare.
Tron79,
For the sake of comparison and a little nostalgia, here’s a young Maisie Williams on-set interview during filming of S1.
Farimer123,
I’m just writing facts, not opinions. Since season 5 game of thrones was bad fan fiction. Just when they started to write without the books…….🤔. It was filled with fan service and ridiculous non sensical stories.
Juan,
No, those certainly are not facts. GOT is an adaptation, not fan fiction.
Young Dragon, that’s why I think The Bells was the best episode. It was a horror story from start to finish. I get why some people hated it. I loved it.
Gods, talk about the human heart in conflict with itself… Process of elimination made choosing initially easy–Winterfell, The Last of the Starks and the Iron Throne were all good and hit the necessary beats, but ultimately not particularly outstanding (other than the final Stark montage at the end of S8E6). I found the inarticulateness of almost everyone but Tyrion hard to justify. Of the remaining three:
2. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms was a near-perfect small-scale episode. It was so humane, so loving, so insightful, especially about people looking death in the face. It is my sentimental favourite, but lacked scope and resolution.
3. Visually, the Long Night was too bloody dark, but it was chockablock with awe-inspiring or sublimely beautiful images. And it brought the Dawn. The episode was like a spectacular symphony in three movements. Sapochnik has talked about it having different phases, with the library scene (and crypt scenes?) as an interlude breaking up the early fighting sequences and the final frenzied desperate fights. Everyone except Sam acquitted themselves admirably, and several died the death they wanted or expected. Many paid off their previous set-ups, especially Arya. (IMHO, her kill was well prepared for and earned, but we were all especially surprised because 30 minutes of non-stop action occurred between the moment she left Mel and the moment she jumped the Night King.) The calm after the storm and the Beautiful Death of Melisandre were the perfect coda.
5. This day especially I’m reminded of a WWI song, “The bells of hell go ting-a ling-a ling, for you but not for me…” . In The Bells, they rang for Varys, Euron, Jaime and Cersei, Qyburn,, Sandor (sob) and Gregor, many fighting men, thousands of innocent civilians…and for Dany’s future. The visuals and CGI were unbelievably cinematic. The lesson that war is hell was convincingly told from above and on the ground. Best of all, almost all characters finally reached their apex. Varys died, but he was right, Tyrion imperiled himself to save his family and the civilians. Euron had killed Jaime Lannister. But Jaime and Cersei still loved each other and he got the girl! Sandor killed Gregor but saved Arya in the most important way. She gave up violence but still tried to save others. And poor Daenerys was pushed by circumstances and psychological factors to indiscrimately go Fire and Blood. And after all that sturm und drang the episode ended with a mystical harbinger of peace sent to the girl who had lost her peace in Kings Landing seven seasons earlier. To me, The Bells was the climax of the story and beautifully told. S8E6 was the fairly inevitable denouement and epilogue. And so I voted for The Bells.
The Long Night was the episode that re-defined television. Hell, it even outgunned most blockbuster movies. For me, this will always be the true ending of GOT.
I did see that one before, but it’s wonderful. Maisie had such a great understanding of her character even at her young age. I love when she talked about Needle and how the sword made Arya feel very powerful…manly… and she says…”Arya is not like other girls.”
The weirwood network is quite amazing sometimes! Thanks Wolfish for this response to me back in May about Arya’s scene with the raining ash…
“My gut response to your question is that the cinematography in Ep5, especially the ending scenes to which you referred, was heavily inspired by Akira Kurosawa, whereas the cinematography of Ep6, especially the opening scenes, was far more Leni Riefenstahl. The markedly different use of color (or lack of) might account, at least in part, for the feeling that they’re from different shows.”
Here’s a nice article about Arya’s Episode 5 scene with the Pale Mare and other references. It even starts with a picture of her with the horse…
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/05/230226/arya-pale-mare-nora-game-of-thrones-episode-5
There are quite a few references to Pale Mare in the books.
And there is the biblical reference that talks about Death riding a Pale Mare.
There is a number of prophesies from the books that include a Pale Mare. I enjoyed Efi’s posts in a different thread about other prophesies. When I read about visions in the books and I tried my best to make sense out of them and then think…wtf… So I appreciate when someone like Efi really digs deep into them…
But sadly for the show, I suspect the pale male is probably just Strickland’s white horse and nothing more. And the toy horse is just a reminder of the charred girl since she played with it. I got frustrated with the show for being so literal most of the time and going with the most straightforward explanation. All of my awesome fan theories were obliterated by the more direct approach like Lady Crane was just a good surgeon.
The books do dig deep into prophesies though, but also urges people not to put too much weight into them. Prophesies are often misleading and can be read incorrectly as Mel can attest.
But other than Jon is there a better candidate to rule? I always wanted Jon to take the throne because he was fundamentally good but Bran should also be a success and won’t be tainted by the lure of power and greed like Dany was.
I thought that I would vote for episode 2 and I ended up voting for episode 6, perhaps for the moment when Tyrion throws the pin. I told myself: “Tyrion is back on the menu, guys”. Really that look was comparable to the ones directed to Joffrey. So perhaps for giving birth again to a character I thought they had lost completely, I voted for it.
Episode 2, by a mile.
Juan,
Please go look up the words “fact” and “opinion” in a dictionary; you don’t seem to know what they mean.
Just as I thought, another book stan. Worships the books like holy scripture, and any deviation from them is a sin.
I went with the first episode, for at that time I was still expecting a season on par with the previous seven seasons…
I voted The Long Night. Stunning episode from beginning to end, and it’s the one I’ve kept watching over and over.
The Bells is equal in quality with The Long Night, but the destruction of Kings Landing is emotionally more difficult to watch, and I kinda wish they’d given some of the story beats that Arya had, trying to make it through the streets alive and save people, to Jon – he really didn’t get much to do but stand there and look horrified.
The Iron Throne is an excellent conclusion, and as others have commented the first half is incredibly tense because you know Tyrion and Jon are just one mis-step away from being executed, and yet the only way out is for them to plot to do the unthinkable. Second half is less focused, but that’s the way it often is with endings to stories that feature a large cast.
A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is a nice episode, and it’s got all the great character interactions (love the scene where they are making battle plans, with pretty much every character in the room), but it’s not remotely challenging and is a bit fan-servicey. A calm before the storm episode. If I may make an observation, I think fans who put the characters, or at least certain characters, ahead of the story prefer this episode more.
The Last of the Starks – there are two good episodes here, unfortunately they are bolted together a little crudely and I think it creates a bit of narrative whiplash – the suddenness with which the story moves from the north to King’s Landing.
Winterfell – a perfunctory season opener, does its job well and the standout scene is Sam telling Jon about his parentage, but all the other big story beats come in later episodes. And I still don’t like the dragon flight, which came off a bit slapstick I thought, though I understand why they did it, because there’s not much humour in the rest of the season and we needed to see Jon learn to fly Rhaegal.
mau,
The episode was very subversive , and in an extremely brutal way. It basically punished you for rooting for epic battles and dragons for the past 7 seasons. Oh, you think battles are cool, well lets make this battle a horrifying massacre. You think sacking a city is no big deal? Lets show you what actually happens during a sack where mass rapes and killings are normal. You think the dragons are cool because we played heroic music in the previous seasons? Well now we’re not going to play any music and all you’ll hear are the screams of the dying. You thought your hero could take the almighty throne without becoming a villain? Guess again
I really like this post. Martin’s book was supposed to go against type; and here is the biggest example. Fantasy fans get a big taste of reality. Like Jared, Im thinking of calling this one the best, just because of that.
Jared,
I knew deep down that every twist and turn that this story has taken has led us here, and that whatever hopes I had once harbored for how things might turn out … this was the story that I had signed up for. As absolutely heart-wrenching as it is, it all fits.
However, the knight of the seven kingdoms may win my vote; It allows me to keep a little bit of hope in the pandora box that is this series. to be decided….
Tron79,
Semi Off-Topic: About differences between books vs. show…
I had never seen these two Jimmy Kimmel spoof commercials, with the actors playing themselves as fan hotline operators (required by fine print in their HBO contracts).
Sophie Turner answers a caller who asks what the difference is between the books and the show. 😎🕊
Jimmy Kimmel: “Game of Phones” Fan Hotline #1 (2:26 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4-R3JvGdJs
“Game of Phones” Fan Hotline # 2 (1:54 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuxmSHyDUYs
___
This was a tough one, and took me a while to decide between 8×02 and 8×05.
I absolutely love the ending in 8×05 when Arya mounts the horse and rides off — it’s one of my favourite sequences in the whole series! Plus it had Arya’s farewell to Sandor, Cleganebowl, and the utter gut-punch of the devastation of KL.
In the end though, I had to go with 8×02. It’s such a wonderful episode focusing on the characters before the big battle with the WW. The knighting of Brienne is amazing! And wonderful scenes between Arya and Sandor, Arya and Gendry, Sansa and Theon.. but most of all, Jenny’s Song. I think that’s what pushed it over for me!
I was mostly joking about Bran. I’m sure he’ll be legit. I just think it’s kind of funny how no one showed any apprehension to being ruled by Big Brother at the council meeting.
What happens when Bran dies though? Doesn’t Westeros just go back to warring factions fighting for control of the Throne, which is what they had before Bran became king? Putting Bran in charge is a short term solution to a long term problem. They really didn’t solve anything by putting Bran in charge. They basically just put this problem in the lap of future generations to deal with. I really didn’t care for the dragonpit scene in the finale, in case it wasn’t already obvious 🙂
Still deciding between The Long Night and The Bells for my favorite episode of the season.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
“5. This day especially I’m reminded of a WWI song, “The bells of hell go ting-a ling-a ling, for you but not for me…” . In The Bells, they rang for Varys, Euron, Jaime and Cersei, Qyburn,, Sandor (sob) and Gregor, many fighting men, thousands of innocent civilians…and for Dany’s future. The visuals and CGI were unbelievably cinematic. The lesson that war is hell was convincingly told from above and on the ground. Best of all, almost all characters finally reached their apex. Varys died, but he was right, Tyrion imperiled himself to save his family and the civilians. Euron had killed Jaime Lannister. But Jaime and Cersei still loved each other and he got the girl! Sandor killed Gregor but saved Arya in the most important way. She gave up violence but still tried to save others. And poor Daenerys was pushed by circumstances and psychological factors to indiscrimately go Fire and Blood. And after all that sturm und drang the episode ended with a mystical harbinger of peace sent to the girl who had lost her peace in Kings Landing seven seasons earlier. To me, The Bells was the climax of the story and beautifully told. S8E6 was the fairly inevitable denouement and epilogue. And so I voted for The Bells.“
_____
This is a wonderful summary of S8e5.
Ten Bears,
ok, I am supposed to go in to work, and now I am crying! Thanks alot for that TB (no, really, thanks a lot, I hadn’t seen that before,it was beautiful 🙂 )
well it was an adaptation till Martin decided not to finish the books. Then it was, what it was.
Mr Derp,
”Still deciding between The Long Night and The Bells for my favorite episode of the season.”
——-
I’m having trouble deciding. My uncertainty has this unresolved imaginary scene playing out in my head…
Host (TB internal voice):
“And my nominees for Watchers on the Wall Award for Best Episode of Season 8 are…
Episode 2, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms: “I fought for you, didn’t I?”
Episode 5, The Bells: “Sandor! … Thank you.”
(*Mentally tears open envelope*)
And the Lommy goes to…”
???
Tron79,
Thanks. I just read the May 12, 2009 Refinery29 article you linked, comparing the “pale mare” references in the books and the white horse in S8e5.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/05/230226/arya-pale-mare-nora-game-of-thrones-episode-5
With the understanding that this article was written right after Episode 5 aired, I have to admit I was distracted by the writer’s absolute certainty that Arya would kill Dany… as well as the overuse and abuse of that dreaded word, “literally.” [*grinds teeth*]
Excerpts from linked article:
“With only one episode left of the series forever, there is literally no doubt whatsoever that Arya is going to end up killing Dany herself and the reasons for this were clearly laid out in the episode…”
“… Nora and her daughter meet a horrible, untimely death…. Even though Drogon is breathing fire literally right behind them, the daughter goes rushing back to her mother. In a flash, both have been burned to death, a charred wooden horse figurine still being held tight in the daughter’s hand.”
“…However, we’re not talking about dysentery in episode 5 of Game of Thrones. We’re talking about death. At the end of the episode, Arya literally gets on a pale, white horse and rides away from the wreckage of the city.”
“How incredibly convenient that Dany has been warned about a pale mare, and Arya just happens to be riding a pale mare, and also Arya is like 110% going to kill Dany?”
Ten Bears,
Hmm, well, between episodes 2 and 5, which one had more Arya?
Bran could end up living for another hundred years? There’s plenty of time to decide all of that. Crowning Bran the Broken was just the first step.
None… Season 7/8 was a complete and utter dumpster fire… the only positive thing that came out of it was that it was so terrible that Disney ended up stealth-firing D&D from the Star Was franchise… sure, each had some interesting moments that fans were waiting for but they were embedded in so much putrid excrement that it turned stale in your mouth even while watching it unfold…
Can only be “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.”
1) A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms [close to flawless and felt the most like an episode from the prior seasons]
2) The Long Night [I would vote for this one, if everything from the Night King’s death onward had been transferred to the end of episode 4 or 5. It had issues (such as excessive plot armor, lighting, the confusing crypt scene and lack of Sansa+Tyrion using the dagger, battle tactic weirdness, etc.), but I think the awesomeness of the Great War and the parts I absolutely adored could’ve made me forgiving, had it been just the start of said war…]
3) Winterfell [very passable premiere, if a tad on the short side]
4) The Last of the Starks [I mean, at least it lifted my excitement back up to like, main-floor-level after Winter’s abrupt end had sent it plummeting to the basement from the roof of a skyscraper…? #71/73.]
5) The Iron Throne [#72/73. And just what IS Bran the Busted’s tax policy going to be? +1 to Ser Derp & Juan.]
6) The Bells [Look, I don’t know what my favorite episode of the series is because in the previous seasons, so much separate stuff was going on in each one that they were virtually impossible to tell apart in retrospect. Which may be another reason that singular, distinct battle episodes like Hardhome and BotB and Blackwater are always cited as the best. They’re easy to remember and pull out. So while I don’t have an episode ranking, I do know the bottom 3 by light years–with that one being #73. The one where my brother looked at me afterward and said, “Boy, they really ran this show into the ground, didn’t they?” And I could but nod in solemn assent…won’t forget to leave off the latter half of S8 on any future rewatches. First of which may be next year since I pre-ordered the Complete Series Blu-ray set as a Christmas gift for my mom, who won’t mind ending it at 8×03 either…]
Ten Bears,
Arya killing Daenerys would be an interesting development. All those lines about killing the queen would have been seen as clever foreshadowing.
Since I like dark endings I would have Daenerys kill Tyrion and imprison Jon. And only then Arya would kill her. But then I expect that petition would have 5 million signatures lol
Jack Bauer 24,
Valar Morghulis. All Men Must Die.
Bran will die someday and there needs to be a succession plan for Westeros. The entire show was mostly about the political machinations of Westeros, yet the show ended without a long term resolution to it. That was frustrating for me. I am fine with some things playing out off-screen, but this shouldn’t have been one of them.
IMO, this should’ve been resolved onscreen since the politics of Westeros were so critical to the essence and purpose of the story to begin with.
Mr Derp,
But the idea is that they would come to Dragonpit and choose new king when Bran dies.
” The Long Night ” by miles 🙂
although, the bells was amazing.
but yes, the Long Night
I think he needs to be connected to the Weirwood trees for long life (she says, as if she knows anything about it). After that the Heads of the great houses come together to vote on a new ruler. Which I imagine will be a huge mess, with backstabbing and plotting galore.
This.
After Bran dies things will go right back to where the show started. Backstabbing, infighting, plotting, murder, all at the expense of the citizens of KL so someone else can be in power.
Maybe Bran can create a system where he can find other greenseers and mentor them to become the next rulers of Westeros. However, I’m sure it wouldn’t take long for corruption to spoil that process as well.
Sorry about my “Pale Male” typo 🙂 in my post..
Yeah, Tyrion would have been clever to hire himself a FM with one so close by instead of trying to talk Jon into it. I’m not sure though if Tyrion was privy to Arya’s skills.
Arya seemed to leave it up to Jon though when she appeared out of nowhere on the steps in the finale. I think she put her hand on Jon’s shoulder and made him realize that Sansa would never accept Dany. She said the line about knowing a killer when she sees one. Some complained that it was obvious Dany was a killer, but Arya was saying something deeper about Dany being more of a tyrannical killer (IMHO). But she still left it up to Jon to make the call. I wish she would have done something so she killed Dany for Jon so he wouldn’t have been saddled with the guilt.
I have something for Kevin1989 I read a bunch of the sample chapters of WoW and the THEON chapter in particular was very interesting… One thing that bugged me about Sansa’s and Theon’s jump off the battlements in season 6 was cleared up for me! and more…
So, I’m wondering if this scene happened before the pink letter was sent or whether Ramsey just lied about certain facts in the letter. It seemed like this could have been similar to the chapters when Ser Barristan sees the dragons fly and then the next chapter you go back in time before the dragons were released to find out how it happened. It would be interesting if Stannis was really still alive or whether it’s just showing us what happened before he is killed. Stannis is aware of Ramsay’s plan after getting info from his captive.
The ending of the chapter brought up a Bran connection with the ravens going crazy in their cages and chanting Tree, Tree, Tree and Theon Theon Theon… Wow, that was a great ending of the chapter. The chatper ends with Theon thinking “They know my name”. He’s been battling his identity crisis between Reek, Theon, etc… But what kind of foreshadowing is this??? Will he eventually defend Bran at the Weirwood just like the show? Or does Theon have some other role with Bran in the wars to come… Very intriguing. But these sample chapters are not really bringing the world closer together…If anything they are opening up more questions and making things even more complex. So WoW could be 2000+ pages or something… I wonder if all of these chapters will make it into the actual book though.
Sansa’s chapter still has her stuck in the Vale. I’m hoping the Vale doesn’t become her Meereen where she’s stuck there forever!! Get her out of there! At least in the books she’s not surviving Ramsey’s torture. Interesting chapter though.
Hard choice between 2 and 5.
2 won it for me, because of it’s humanity.
5 would have won for the loss of it.
I’m a humanitarian after all.
Jenny,
But no one says that is it was decided that his children will rule afrer him that there would’t be a mess, as we already saw. That’s why Tyrion said ask me again in 10 years. There is no system that can bring long term stability.
It’s gonna have to be “The Long Night” for me. Tension so thick you can cut it with a knife, incredible visuals and music, excellent pacing, and not too much dialogue – letting the action do the talking. And you just know this is the final climatic battle against the White Walkers, like they get beaten here or nowhere.
“Winterfell” and “Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” are both solid episodes with some great moments, especially the latter, but they’re both perhaps a tad slow so they don’t get my vote.
As for the remaining 3 episodes… I enjoy them well enough and I can get behind all the major beats without much trouble, and again there’s several amazing, intense, and poignant moments. However, I’m of the opinion that those final four hours should have been divided into four 60-minute episodes instead of the three 80-minute episodes we got. That would have also made it feel less rushed to a lot of people. And it would have mirrored the four-hour four-episode “Dragonstone” mini-arc that started off S7 – reception to that arc was very positive.
The first of the four episodes would have ended with Missandei’s capture – “so much for the breaker of chains”. Call this episode “King’s Landing” because all the other mini-arcs of S7 & S8 started off with an episode named after a location that has become super important, where the eyes of the world are – “Dragonstone” “Eastwatch” and “Winterfell”.
The second would have ended with the gates being breeched and the Golden’s Company’s annihilation “the Red Keep has never fallen, it won’t fall today” (which is Cersei in full-blown denial mode). Not sure what to name this one. The battle has effectively been won for Dany, now the question remains: will she be a Grant or a Sherman?
The third begins with Jon, Grey Worm, and Davos walking into the city and continues up until Jon reunites with Arya “I know a killer when I see one.” Call this one “The Wheel”.
The fourth and final episode begins with Tyrion and Jon’s conversation in the former’s cell and ends with Jon riding North into the woods. Call this one “A Dream of Spring”, fitting because of that one shot of grass sprouting through the snow.
Mr Derp,
And hereditary monarchy doesn’t create mess?
mau,
Being optimistic, Bran’s successor will probably be alright. The people voting will be connected to our characters (and hopefully trustworthy), Sweet Robin and Sansa might still be there, after that who knows. Perhaps Bran will invent parliament. It’s just the first step on the road to democracy.
Farimer123,
I agree but I think 5 episodes after The Long Night was needed.
E4 – end with Stark scene in Godswood
E5 – ends with Missadei’s death
E6 – The Bells
E7-ends with Dany’s death
E8 – Jon goes beyond the Wall
Jenny,
The point is that no system can bring long term stability even in real world. The idea is that kings will be choosen and not born to rule. Over time Westeros will probably transform into Republic. And there will be great kings and presidents and terrible rulers as well. And there will be time of war and chaos and time of prosperity. Just like in real life.
Of course it does. There is no perfect form of government, but they were supposed to come up with something better than what they already had, which they didn’t.
Sticking Bran on the throne and saying “ask me again in 10 years” isn’t really a resolution to the problem.
mau,
Your idea translated into running times would be
E4: ~40 minutes
E5: ~40 minutes
E6: ~80 minutes
E7: ~40 minutes
E8: ~40 minutes
My idea gives all four hypothetical episodes a nice even ~60 minutes.
Mr Derp,
“From now on, rulers will not be born – they will be chosen, on this spot by lords and ladies of Westeros to serve the realm.”
I’d say that beats being ruled by a hereditary monarchy and just praying to whatever god(s) you fancy that the current ruler or next-in-line isn’t batshit insane any day.
Farimer123,
Very few of the previous kings that took over through bloodlines were “batshit insane” though. Only Aerys was. The rest were simply incompetent or didn’t care about the common people, which is a common theme among all political systems.
Additionally, the vast majority of the kings/queens did not take over based on their bloodlines. Robert, Joffrey, and Cersei took over because they had the power to do so. There is no reason to think this would change under the new system. All it takes is a couple of these lords and ladies to conspire with each other to start another war of the 5 kings type of scenario.
They didn’t really resolve anything. Hopefully that this decision will start a trajectory towards representation though. I was just hoping for something a little less vague.
Good question.
Episode 2 had Arya’s battlements scene with Sandor (“I fought for you, didn’t I?”😥); the “I know Death…he’s got many faces” scene with Gendry; and of course her interrogation/seduction of Gendry.
Episode 5 had her final farewell to Sandor 😢, and the long uninterrupted shot of her running the gauntlet through Dany’s Inferno, capped off with the white horse’s appearance.
F*ck, I don’t know! While I haven’t computed or compared screen times, it’s tough to say which episode had a higher ratio of ASNAWP quality per minute.
Mr Derp,
Maegor the cruel was pretty bad, and there were years of wars and rebellions. i wouldnt say they were mad but some were pretty cruel. In my opinion is that they did set up a potentially better system by voting for a better person than constant war, which could still happen if people dont like the vote but there still is a choice so to speak.
Ten Bears,
Personally, between the two, I think the more memorable Arya moments were in episode 5, but let’s try this…
If the entirety of season 8 was about to be wiped off the face of the Earth except for one episode, which one would you keep?
Mr Derp,
Aegon the Conqueror became King of Westeros because he could, sure. Every Targaryen after him, though? That was ~300 years of kings taking over solely because of their bloodlines. That’s 16 Targaryen kings after Aegon, not counting Prince Rhaeghal. Even Viserys’ and Dany’s claims to the throne rested entirely on their father’s name. And quite a few Targaryens besides the Mad King weren’t right in the head, lest we forget Maegor the Cruel and Aegon the Unworthy.
Robert took over because he could, sure. His successor was Joffrey, who gave the worst Targaryen kings a run for their money, solely because he was (supposedly) the eldest son of Robert. Cersei took the throne because there was literally no one in the capital with any power to oppose her. Besides, Robert was dead, all three of his children were dead, his brothers were dead, and all his bastards were (apparently) dead too, there was no one else for the job. She wasn’t even gunning for it; it’s not like she wanted her last child and king to commit suicide.
Do you see a council of lords and ladies from all over Westeros picking a ruler who’s cruel or incompetent or doesn’t give a fuck about them? The council would probably stay in session until they found SOMEONE who they could all get behind at least reluctantly. As for the well-being of the commoners, most lords and ladies don’t care very much about them, and the commoners don’t care much for the lords and ladies either, just as long as they don’t get sent to fight in unjust wars or bankrupted with excessive taxes.
Remind me: why did the War of the Five Kings start? Two of them wanted independence, but as for the other three who were fighting over control of the Iron Throne, it all had to do with bloodlines. Joffrey was supposedly the rightful heir, but then Stannis claimed it because Joffrey was actually illegitimate, and then Renly claimed it because lots of people thought both Joffrey and Stannis sucked ass. Even after Renly died all his supporters went to Stannis because at least he was a true Baratheon, even if he was the worst one. Again, all bloodlines.
Viserys and Dany wanted to be the rulers of Westeros so badly, again based solely on their Targaryen bloodline, that they were willing to bring the Dothraki over, and it was well-explained in S1 just how bad that would be for the realm. The hereditary aspect of the monarchy caused so many problems and wars that its amazing how anyone can defend it. It was pure luck of the draw, if the next-in-line was a good king, great. And if not, get fucked.
I know off topic, but I just watched the 2nd episode of HDM. I can relate some of it to GOT, since Dafne Keen has a bit of a similar look to Maisie. I don’t think it’s a good sign that I dozed off at some point in the middle of both episodes. I felt so bad that I dozed off, because I was very motivated to watch! I’m not sure what to think. Mrs. Coulter is supposed to be very calculating but she lets something slip in the heat of an argument. Not sure if that was intentional, but I hope it was for the sake of the show. So far the daemon’s are the most interesting element for me. I’m also extremely distracted by Dafne’s forehead scar. I know that’s not fair to her. Perhaps it’s because my oldest son has a similar scar from a bad fall when he was 4. But they shoot in extreme closeups much of the time and I can’t help zoom in on it.
Dafne is doing a good job with the script, but she isn’t as dynamic as Maisie. Dafne seems more mellow, and she is that way in interviews as well. I did quite enjoy Dafne in Logan, but she didn’t talk for most of the movie and she had some extreme action scenes. So far, not much action for Lyra in the first two episodes IMHO. I didn’t read the books, so I really have no context. I’m speaking strictly as a TV watcher who likes fantasy and sci fi.
Tron79,
I’m not sure about Dafne’s Lyra, Lyra at the beginning of the books is a little sh*t to be quite honest. Think Arya with more sass, she matures throughout the story and becomes really caring and compassionate, she was always brave. Dafne is indeed mellow, and not how I imagined her. I assume that the character will reach the same point, but they have started out a bit different. Lyra in this series is far too polite to adults etc, and she’s too posh. The Mrs Coulter slip was a series invention, that plot reveal doesn’t happen until later in the books, so try not to hold it against her lol.
Its a tough one, if I hadn’t read the books, I don’t know if I’d be able to follow it, there are a lot of fantasy concepts to explain early on, that doesn’t always make for the most engaging story.
Tron79,
I think before, I think Stannis will win in a tricky way. I think he will win against the invading Frey’s. (I will send a link after this part) And that Manderly’s troops help Stannis to fake his death. Stannis gives his sword to the Manderly’s. Some of Stannis men will take the place of the fallen frey’s. They infiltrate the castle and open the gates of Winterfell at night so Stannis troops can enter the castle and the Bolton’s are defeated from within. But when Ramsay received the sword of Stannis, he believes Stannis is death and he sends the letter to CB.
Another big theory is that in fact Ramsay is already death, and Mance is using his glamour to look like Ramsay and he sends the letter to CB. The reason is simple: Mellisandre has his son. He wants his son back. And if ramsay is defeated Mel has no reason to keep Mance son alive, so Mance need to make it feel like Ramsay won so Mel/ Jon etc come south with his son.
Stannis plan:
https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/the-night-lamp-an-alternative-strategy-for-the-siege-of-winterfell/
Yes all these chapters will make it too the books. But I think Winds only need to be 1500 page manuscripts, making it 1000 page book. Like Dance. Many things will be resolve and many storylines come together. And GRRM already state he is done adding more POVs we get what we get, the only POV we get are the prologue and epilogue characters. And now its time too kill the off. I expect that 40% of the POVs are death at the end of winds or are going to die within 2 chapters in dream.
Sansa, I hope she will be out of the Vale soon, maybe 1 or 2 chapters after this. At least I hope. And I think it’s high likely, Sansa was put out of Dance and Feast contain little chapters because there was not really much chapters in the Vale to begin with for her.
What did you think of the battle of Meereen? The start. And Arianne? her CotF cave scene. And damphair what did you think of Damphair chapter? Arya you already stated, did I miss somebody?
Farimer123,
It’s just trading one corrupt system for another. Except now, instead of using bloodlines as an excuse to pursue the throne, you can use any excuse imaginable to be eligible.
Thankfully, there will be representatives to filter out who the best candidate would be, but I’m not so sure the citizens of Westeros should feel good about the likes of Edmure Tully or Robin of the Vale making these decisions for them.
I think I was following the fantasy elements alright. The problem was that none of the characters really connected with me yet. I did like seeing the Old Bear Moremont a couple of times! In GOT I felt invested in certain characters even early on. So far in HDM, I mainly connect with the daemon animals! I enjoy the interaction between Lyra’s lemur/bird (whatever she is) and Coulter’s monkey. Lyra hasn’t grabbed me yet. Her best friend is OK, but I’m not feeling that connected to him either..I will give it time and watch the rest of the season, but I hope I don’t doze off again.
If that’s the test, I would keep “The Bells” because it’s got the [satisfying, for me] culmination of six years* of the Arya & Sandor relationship.
* S3 – S8, including the callbacks to Sandor by Arya in the S5 and S6 “Game of Faces” with Jaqen 2.0 and the Waif, when Sandor was offscreen and presumed dead.
Those are some really interesting theories! I think the common theme from the books is you’re just not sure who’s really dead and who’s coming back harder and stronger… I think we’re all Ironborn in the end…
I’m following your reader order for the WoW samples, so I just finished Theon. Just from memory, I think I have the two Arianne chapters, then the Damphair, then Victarion left…
Mr Derp,
Update: You know what? All else being equal, that one moment of Sandor gently holding Arya’s head and speaking earnestly to her while she looks back up at him with those puppy dog eyes, puts “The Bells” on top.
That is my vote.
Jenny,
Tron79,
Yay! We’re talking about HDM!! I was hoping for somebody to open it back up because I wanted to share my thoughts!
I really, really loved episode 2 — but I did read the books and ooooooooh!!
I did think it was good exploration of daemons and their links to their humans. I can agree with the hesistancy over Dafne Keen’s Lyra and the characterization of this Lyra. She’s got the right amount of curiosity and there’s some bite — but not a lot. I don’t find her as defiant as the Lyra in the books.
I love Ruth Wilson’s Mrs Coulter. Omg. I loved Nicole Kidman’s Mrs Coulter but Ruth Wilson is really winning me over too! I didn’t think that was possible…
For Jenna (as it contains spoilers for future plots in the books)!
You may have seen this (ten-minute) video already. It’s got other actors’ last days on set, as well as presentation of framed illustrations by the show’s storyboard artist of one of the character’s iconic scenes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZeYjbsDHpQ
For example, I think the video shows the Sansa coronation scene framed storyboard that Sophie Turner was so excited about.
Mr Derp,
You don’t know if the new system is corrupt. It’s not going to be perfect, but there’s no reason to believe that it won’t be a better system than the former. As mau said, there is no perfect system of government. Any one of them can be corrupted, so you would feel this way no matter what they came up with.
Mr Derp,
And what would be resolution? All wars that started in Westeros were about right of birth and right of conquest. The endings rejects both of these things and establishes that you need to be choosen to rule.
Farimer123,
But my idea is to shoot more scenes.
Ten Bears,
oh those were hilarious!
Mr Derp,
Thinking that D&D and GRRM can invent uncoruptable system while no one else did in the entire history of humanity is a bit too much.
Ending a story like this is about feeling. Feeling of hope and new beginning, hope for better world where people will be choosen to serve the Realm based on ther qualities and not because they were born to do it or because they won in a war.
It’s a dream of spring.
ash,
No, it’s still an adaptation because it’s still based on Martin’s characters and world. The Bourne movies are adaptations, even though they bare very little resemblance to the books they’re based on.
Young Dragon,
I mean the idea of new system is even not that complicated. There will be no birthright, no wars for the Throne. People will be chosen based on their quality.
That’s the idea and every generation will have responsibility to carry that idea. Will it work? Who knows.
I know this is a very unpopular opinion but I have to go with episode 5.
Tonally and thematically it feels more in line with the source material than any episode since season 5. (War is he’ll, power corrupts, revenge is a poison)
Cleganebowl, Arya choosing to give up her revenge and Jaime and Cersei’s genuinely movin death scene is just the icing in the cake.
Episode 2 is a very close second.
Adrianacandle,
Oh, I LOVE Ruth Wilson in this, I was a big fan of James McAvoy as Lord Asriel, I saw someone say that he wasn’t gruff enough, but I liked him better than Daniel Craig. I liked this episode much more than the first, but I did get a bit confused when they
that really threw me. I just didn’t expect it. I should really stop worrying about people who haven’t read the book, it’s not really my business is it? I should just watch it for my own enjoyment.
Jenny,
I love Ruth Wilson in this!! But oh, I still love Nicole Kidman. It’s a very torn feeling. I think Nicole Kidman had just the right look and that deceptively soft, beguiling voice. But Ruth Wilson is also wonderful and her performance spoke loads. This week, it really
I think it is kind of jarring to see such divergences like this, especially having lived with the books for so long, but I am really enjoying it and I hope it’s more successful than The Golden Compass. I know it was not a great adaptation, but I really wanted to see that film’s cast go through the trilogy.
I think Dafne Keen is a lovely actress but I agree with your assessment. I think she has room to grow though? Dakota Blue’s Lyra felt a bit more defiant (I remember her scowling at the Master during the banquet before Mrs Coulter appeared) but I have hopes for Keen! 🙂 I think she has the right curiosity and determination for Lyra!
Whilst I agree S7/S8 dropped off in quality versus prior seasons. i.e. where D&D didn’t have much detail from GRRM (I believe they did for S6/Winds) I disagree that they were a dumpster fire by any stretch. They were still largely great TV only littered with holes/mistakes that just were not as prevalent in prior seasons.
mau,
The only uncorrected system is that of LotR in the end. But that’s more how Tolkien wrote, and it’s a bit too unrealistic that a certain family always are right kings.
GoT and asoiaf is a more realistic view of government. And personally in real life I wouldn’t want to live in a uncorrupted system (I would rather that people won’t choose corruption that’s a different debate). A uncorrupted system is a system that is either 1. Dictatorship 2. surveillance system where every move of every person is filed and processed.
Neither sounds that amazing. Freedom comes with the cost that corruption can happen. You can’t stop them all the time, you can only implement laws when corruption happen and is found out that those who did it, are put on trial for it. But stopping beforehand 100% is not something that can happen in a free country.
That’s not really true, an adaption is only the change from one medium to another. But if using the word adaption in book to movie (or game to movie, or book to game etc) there needs to be a close resemblance of what is put on screen and what was written in the books. With a movie/tv adaption of a book the story needs to follow the story as close as possible. If for instance the story changed beyond repair between the adaption, the word adaption no longer can be used.
Example Dexter. Season 1 was called an adaption by the makers (you can say it’s based on book ….), but after season 2 there is no connection to the books anymore, the stories of the show are not in the books. So after that they state that the show is based on the show. Because only the characters remain but their stories are completely different.
As for how much need to be in the adaption to remain an adaption, there’s no real percentage. For instance “The lovely Bones” that Peter Jackson adapted is still called an adaption even when he cut half of the book out. It’s because what the story was about and it’s ending was the same, the journey was also from the books only shorter and only about the main characters instead of the secondary characters. the characters remain the same in both versions, only the books has an extended journey.
With GoT it remains how close the characters are too it’s book counter part once the last book aired and how close the characters are in the end, and how close the story is.
I think GoT would never fall into the “Based on” in the end. Because the show like the books will end with the war of the IT and the war against the WW. So it remains an adaption. The question is only how close is that adaption.
And even when in the end I probably (can’t know I haven’t read the next 2 books) like the book version better. But when it comes to call GoT an good or bad adaption I think you only can look at the first 5 seasons (and half of 6). WoW and DoS you cant take into account because we don’t know how much written pages D&D got from WoW from Martin.
Conclusion: I personally go with that GoT is an adaption of the books. Not based on.
Jon Snowed,
Agree.
kevin1989,
True.
Young Dragon,
mau,
I’ve been pretty clear that I wasn’t expecting a flawless form of government. I’ve also been clear that my issue is that they claimed to have broken the wheel, but they really didn’t. I mean, just because bloodright is out of the equation doesn’t mean you can’t come up with a million other reasons to start a war to claim the Throne.
The king/queen is chosen by the representatives, but the representatives that get to make the decisions on who’s king or queen are not chosen by the people. It’s still a system where the wealthy elite get to make all the decisions without having to consider the common folk.
I think GoT tried to show that Westeros is on a trajectory to be more representative, which is a step in the right direction, but its not breaking the wheel. It’s just replacing one wheel for another with its own major set of problems. There’s no reason to think eliminating birthright from the equation would prevent wars from happening over the Throne.
Mr Derp,
Again, like 90% of the conflicts fought in Westeros over the past three centuries have had something to do with bloodlines and inheritance.
Farimer123,
That’s because that’s the way the system was rigged. You needed bloodlines. Now that you don’t, power hungry people will just use a different excuse to seek power. It doesn’t eliminate conflicts for power. It just changes the excuse to seek power. Also, as we’ve seen in the show, you didn’t need the bloodlines anyway. You just needed the power.
Also, 90% is a random statistic that you are using to make your argument look better. Anyone can do that. 90% of people know that. See?
You really think these conflicts and fighting for power will stop because bloodlines are no longer the key to the Iron Throne?
Mr Derp,
But what you wanted? I don’t get it. What system means “breaking the wheel”?
Mr Derp,
But wars will never stop. I don’t really understand what you wanted them to do. What kind of system means that there will be no war?
mau,
Exactly. That means the wheel hasn’t been broken at all, even though the show claimed it was. That’s my entire point.
The wheel was all about the noble houses being in power and rigging the system to their advantage to maintain power. Having the heads of noble houses decide who becomes king doesn’t change that. At all.
Optimistically, I think it puts things on the right trajectory. It’s just such a subtle change that it really doesn’t change anything and won’t for a long, long time though. People will eventually comes to realize that the noble houses making these decisions are just as bad as the bloodright kings before them, which will eventually lead to a democratic revolution, I would assume, which would be bloody and filled with war.
kevin1989,
Kevin, I finished the rest of the TWOW sample chapters today! So now, I’m in the waiting game with everyone else. I did appreciate reading them in the order you suggested. Thanks! My first thought is that some of these still felt like first drafts to me and depending on the rest of the book may not be in this current form. Many felt like “setting the table” chapters, and I get the feeling that GRRM has written 1000’s of pages like these for TWOW and the world keeps getting farther apart instead of closer together. Oy… Even though GRRM said there will be no new POV characters, there are some characters given more emphasis in these samples. Elia Sand is one (she’s in Arianne’s chapters) She almost has an Arya type of personality to her with being rebellious and other traits that are similar. But I actually hope GRRM doesn’t follow Elia too far and we stay on track. Perhaps she is just used for the current journey Arianne is on and that will be it. I do feel that to keep my reading interest and sanity of trying to remember so many characters, GRRM hopefully will reign in some of these tributaries of the main story. I am a huge fan so I will follow GRRM wherever he leads, but sometimes even in these samples my thought was “how many pages are left in this chapter?”, so that’s not a great thing. If GRRM does go the route of following all of the tangents to their conclusions, it’s going to have to be a 2000+ page book. But that’s what it might take if every chapter is going to leave us with more questions and clues.
Here are a couple thoughts from the chapters…
Arienne’s COTF
Young Griff..
It does seem that this will be an important part of the book since they successfully took Storm’s End (Prince Aegon and Jon Connington), so the books will be very different than the show, since the show decided not to use these characters at all.
Tyrion…
The ironborn….
I love how GRRM’s dungeons mirror their captor’s worlds. In an Ironborn’s dungeon, of course you would be submerged in the sea! Brilliant..and of course it is in the hull of a ship so practically that makes sense too… The dungeon’s in the Eyrie were Sky cells. I love those details.
Sorry about the Damphair’s fate. GRRM did have a pretty striking image in my head at the end of that chapter. Wow. That would have been something to see if it ever made it to the show.
I guess that’s all my thoughts for the moment. Whoops..one more..
Mr Derp,
Again, what kind of system you even wanted?
mau,
You’re missing my point.
GoT at it’s core is about politics and how the politics of Westeros work. In the end, we got such a subtle change to the political system that I simply found it to be disappointing and uninspiring.
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Mr Derp,
It’s hard to disagree when I don’t even know what you are thinking.
Breaking the wheel was first mentioned when Dany talked how great houses fight for power. At the end the system is that they will have to choose every next king in some sort of elections based on their quality and not birth or conquest.
It’s huge change. Completely different legitimacy to the throne.
What you thought will happen? Destruction of all noble houses? Some sort of anarchy?
And even if all noble houses were somehow destroyed you will always have people plot and scheme. Being power hungry is not quality only rich people have as we saw with High Sparrow and Bronn.
Eventually with destruction of noble houses some new establishment would appear like it happened in real life. Noble houses rule our world still. Democracy is just an illusion.
Tron79,
Whoops. My last comment should have been about Victarion not Euron.
Get out of there!
mau,
In other words, the wheel hasn’t been broken. And, if it has been broken, it’s been replaced by another wheel that needs to be broken. Thanks for proving my point!
Mr Derp,
Uh, no. The wheel was all about heritary claims to the title of King of Westeros and the strife they caused. As Tyrion said in 7×6, Aegon the Conqueror built the wheel, then only people of Targaryen ancestry were allowed to rule. They were “on top” for three centuries, but they still couldn’t agree on succession and they had a massive civil war – the Dance of Dragons. Then Robert’s Rebellion came along and put the Baratheons “on top,” but wouldn’t ya know it, less than two decades later, yet another massive civil war breaks out over whose a true Baratheon and who’s not. All these wars were fought over succession and blood-right. And all Dany’s actions from the start were really aimed at just keeping the wheel turning – putting the Targaryens back “on top”, no matter what brutal methods she had to resort to, like bringing a Dothraki horde to Westeros and making half the continent fight the other half.
When was it claimed in the show that the wheel had been definitively broken? Was there a “Mission Accomplished” banner somewhere that I missed? All they did was start to try out this new system that MIGHT be able to “break the wheel” – a dream of spring. It’s not art’s job to provide definitive answers to huge multi-faceted sociopolitical problems, or else it becomes propaganda. For the reasons I mentioned earlier in this comment, this new system of choosing rulers is at least a good start at addressing the main underlying problems.
Stew,
That’s not breaking the wheel though. That’s just modifying it. So it will run better, more efficient.
I think breaking the wheel would have been Sam’s solution. Fuckers were laughing at him but that’s what breaking the wheel means. Getting rid of a few select Houses that are not elected themselves to represent anyone but their interests, and choosing a governances system for everyone else. Which is what the wheel was to begin with.
No doubt in retrospect when looking at Dany’s actions toward the end she was full of bullshit and meant she’ll rule with an iron hand unopposed by anyone from any House. Complete military dictatorship.
In the end maybe Benioff and Weiss has no idea what to do with that speech. They just meant she’ll do something drastic (?). Maybe. Then again we’ll never know because they really left it vague.
Mr Derp,
I think you don’t understand what the wheel was.
TormundsWoman,
Elections is not breaking the wheel either then, since in US, one of the most successful democracies in the world, you have political dynasties. Noble houses ruling over everyone. In other countries in the world is even worse.
Not to mention that going from absolute monarchy to elections would be jumping several centuries of development in one day.
Mr Derp,
Yes, the wheel has been broken, and it’s been replaced by a new wheel that may be a lot better. It’s not definitive, but it was never going to be. You don’t know if the new wheel has to be broken.
I half wish the show had never introduced this breaking the wheel business, they were never going to live up to it. She couldn’t even live up to it, restoring the Targaryen dynasty changes nothing, except she is in power and can destroy the other great houses, and I think that’s all she meant by it. I always saw that as a flaw in her ideology, rather than a goal for the series.
mau,
Definitely is.
Young Dragon,
Well if the wheel was establishment then the only way to break it was to have anarchy. Which is worse than anything.
But I don’t think that the weel represents noble houses in general. Concept of wheel was something D&D put in the show so we can’t say they misunderstood GRRM’s intention.
Wheel,as it was clear from that first speech, is about noble houses fighting for power endlessly. Idea of ending is that there will be no wars for throne because every next ruler will be chosen in Dragonpit by everyone. It will be compromise. Legitimacy to the throne won’t come from conquest or birthright, but from support of every other lord and lady of Westeros.
Jenny,
The only one who ever fixed a broken wheel was Sandor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll8hB7ywcYI
from S3e9 (at 0:27)
Jenny,
I mean it is true that every time something is vague people will have their own interpretation. But breaking the wheel never meant destroying the establishment because that’s imposible.
Even in some primitive tribes you have “establishment”. Ruling class exist everywhere. Only solution then is anarchy.
If I was a writer of the show I would have Great Council ruling at the end. As some sort of Forum Romanum or proto-parliament. There is no throne any more and one person will not rule Westeros. That was the rule in old Rome. “No king will ever rule Rome”.
But as we saw in Rome that system eventually transformed into tyranny as well.
Humans are flawed.
mau,
To be honest, I just filed it away as evidence that she was full of it lol. The concept seemed to get out of control and become the ethos of the whole show, I don’t think that was the intention.
At the next election, I think they will invite more people, because having so few representatives just screams coercion. Looking at you Sam, he manoeuvred Jon into power, he knows how it works. The more people involved, the less likely that will be, you would hope. So get the heads of the lesser houses out there to vote, and the Knights. I’m not saying this is worse btw, it obviously isn’t. I’m just thinking about the practicality of such a thing.
Who is eligible anyway? Just the heads of the great houses? You can’t look them up on the internet, what if you don’t know them? I’m just thinking out loud here.
If we were having this discussion 10 years ago, I’d have more to say, I studied Greek democracy back in the day, the lottery system and all that, of course I’ve forgotten most of it.
I think you’re having a hard time understand what I’m saying and that’s on you, not me. I’m happy to have civil debates, but I’m not going to go down this road with you.
Don’t be a jerk.
Uh yea, so, you’re saying that the new system “may be” a lot better, yet it’s “not definitive”. Very persuasive argument.
Tyrion said the wheel was broken in the last episode.
Mr Derp,
Yes, as has been stated multiple times, this was always going to be the case. Changing the system is about hope for a brighter future. There’s no way to know for sure that it’s better unless there was a time jump hundreds of years into the future, but I’m glad they didn’t do this. The hope of a better future was enough for me and it was more fitting to end with the Stark children.
Mr Derp,
Uh yeah, bullshit he did. Go back and rewatch it.
Farimer123,
This is what he said:
“Sons of kings can be cruel and stupid, as you well know. His will never torment us.
That is the wheel our queen wanted to break. From now on, rulers will not be born.
They will be chosen on this spot by the lords and ladies of Westeros to serve the realm.”
So, Tyrion said that’s the wheel that Dany wanted to break, which implies it wasn’t necessarily broken before Dany died, but at the same time, he declared that rulers will not be born, which is, in effect, now breaking the wheel. It’s just finishing what Dany started.
Mr Derp,
Well, you think the wheel is noble houses and that’s not the case.
(His Dark Materials)
It’s only the reveal that diverges from the books though. It doesn’t change the story. Viewers have seen that Lord Boreal is making regular visits to another world. Readers find that out much later.
Mr Derp,
See you’re assuming Tyrion even knows what wheel Dany meant to break! I think that’s just his interpretation.
Here is the original wheel dialog for a better context into Dany’s bullshit:
Dany: “Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They’re all just spokes on a wheel. This one’s on top, then that one’s on top. And on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground.”
Tyrion: “It’s a beautiful dream, stopping the wheel. You’re not the first person who’s ever dreamt it.”
Dany: “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
So I’m context: the Houses Dany enumerated are the spokes on the system of ruling wheel, crushing the ordinary people on the ground. She wants to crush the wheel (aka system who is held together by these Houses). When you break the wheel not stopping it that means the stupid wheel doesn’t work anymore, spokes and all. The spokes in the wheel have no power since it’s broke.
Now Tyrion’s wheel is an interpretation of that wheel speech. Houses (lords and ladies not the ordinary people which the new wheel will crush) choose their own leader. However the Houses system (not elected but inherited obviously) is still used and have the power and they now move a different wheel. THE WHEEL IS ALIVE! Which like wheels are wont to do, will crush some ordinary ants at some point. Because wheels should NOT be used when a system of governance is chosen!
Also Sam probably read the Hardhome script and correctly interpreted Dany’s bullshit and proposed a crush of the wheel to smithereens by involving the ants! Sam also has the best story so he should be on the throne. Fight me in real life.
No, that’s true. I was just jarred personally 🙂
Asking for a Westeros where the noble houses don’t rig stuff to their advantage – where the powerful do not prey on the powerless – is like asking for a Westeros where the houses are made of gingerbread and the moats filled with blackberry wine.
For Daenerys “breaking the wheel” is “make America great again”. Good slogan that means nothing.
For Tyrion it is about qualities of good ruler, making the world a better place.
706
Daenerys Targaryen: Aegon Targaryen got quite a long way on fear.
Tyrion Lannister: He did. But you once spoke to me about breaking the wheel. Aegon built the wheel. If that’s the kind of Queen you want to be, how are you different from all the other tyrants that came before you?
So it is clear from this scene that breaking the wheel for Tyrion is being a good ruler, he considers all who came after Aegon to be tyrants. And he thinks Aegon built the wheel. So it has nothing to do with destruction of noble houses, because they were in Westeros long before Aegon.
He wants Dany to be better, to rule with higher moral standards. And Daenerys here considers ruling through fear. Set up for her “let it be fear” moment in the next season.
Tyrion Lannister: But the world you want to build doesn’t get built all at once, probably not in a single lifetime. How do we make sure your vision endures? After we break the wheel, how do we make sure it stays broken?
Daenerys Targaryen: You want to know who sits on the Iron Throne after I’m dead? Is that it?
Tyrion Lannister: You say you can’t have children, but there are other ways of choosing a successor. The Night’s Watch has one method; the Ironborn, for all their flaws, have another.
Daenerys Targaryen: We will discuss the succession after I wear the Crown.
So again, for Tyrion breaking the wheel means building a better, more just world. He thinks that Dany will be great ruler and he wants a system that will make sure great rulers come after her(wheel stays broken), so he basically wants a Kingsmoot or Night’s Watch election model for entire Westeros. Something that will happen at the end.
Breking the wheel in short is changing the world for better, ending wars for throne, making sure that the best people are rulers. For Daenerys it’s populist empty statement. It has nothing to do with destruction of noble houses.
TormundsWoman,
Whether we agree or not, thank you for a measured, respectful, mature response that encourages dialog instead of animosity.
Mr Derp,
I’m definitely nicer than Mau! I refuse to be a jerk ☺️
I don’t think we’re far apart on this issue though. Clearly there’s a cyclical broken system in place just asking for trouble when you have that same House clique now choosing the ruler. Which was in fact your point all along if I read the thread correctly.
Houses made alliances all the time to support one claim over another (in this “new system” it will just be one candidate over another). We will see this past trend clearly portrayed in House if Dragon.
Frankly, just like you, I think it’s more of the same¯_(ツ)_/¯
TormundsWoman,
Yes, this is what I was saying. Replacing rulers by bloodright with rulers that are chosen by nobles the likes of Edmure Tully (idiot) and Robin of the Vale (corrupt idiot) isn’t exactly a step up. It’s just more of the same. It didn’t change the world for the better at all. It’s an empty platitude that sounds good, but doesn’t make anything better.
Mr Derp,
You constant refusal to propose a better system makes me feel this is another criticism for the sake of criticism.
Mr Derp,
And who should chose the ruler? The God? Uneducated masses? People who can’t even read?
Farimer123,
I don’t get what they even wanted to be honest. To have elections in country with no education for all? Populists would win elections and votes would be bought by gold. I mean, we see this in many parts of the world even today. Fake elections.
It all comes from wrong interpreation that “breaking the wheel” means destruction of all noble houses. And what that even means? Killing all lords and ladies? Stealing their gold? Turning Westeros into communist country? We all saw how that turned out in Europe, not so long ago.
Tron79,
Your welcome. I will answer parts per character in the spoilertags
Arianne: I think Elia Sans is death. That whole part with the CotF cave felt strange. And the moment Elia tries to enter a hidden passage (which I think CotF still live, or even further weirwood roots. My theory is that the Great Other is a big Weirwood tree. And that the weirwood tree’s are the real enemy in the books, and they created the WW in the books with the help of the CotF (maybe). I discussed this in the best supporting actors post. Something with this reread got my eye that many POV’s had moments with a weirwood tree south of the wall, and see some visions when they are close to one. But later they forget all about it, like it is put in their conscious and they follow that path somehow. Which is different from fire-visions (for better wording) Dany seems to be remembering every vision she got. Back to Elia, she seem to got back at the right time, and even Arianne states Elia is different after that. I think Elia is in fact death and something dark is happening here. And it’s also strange that Arianne seems to forget already what have happened in that cave. Not even a moment later that she recall that strange cave. I mean if I would have stumble on a strange cave like that, and see that the CotF really existed, I would have talked and talked about it after that. And especially wrote my father about it when you write a letter every single day.
Absent of Bran: Also reason why I believe my Weirwood theory could be right is the absence of Bran in Dance. It seems that the next Bran chapter could have a game changer. What if that game-changer is that we found out who the real enemy is that will harm humanity.
About Young Griff: My tinfoil theory is that Young Griff is in fact the child of Rheagar and Lyanna in the books. And Jon is really Neds son with Ashara. And Ned switched the baby’s took his own son back home, and left Lyanna’s son in the care of Ashara because he had silver hair and the Targ eyes like YG. And Varys took that child from Ashara. Why I think that is, is that I think Jon’s story is not about the IT, but about being Azor Ahai Reborn, and I suspect that dawn is lightbringer, which can only be wield by a Dayne. And I rather have Jon have nothing to do with the IT in the books, when he will never sit on it, and his goal is the wall in the end. He is the PTWP, which is more interesting. And about the taking of Storms End I hope that GRRM just skip that battle from JonC’s POV I hope next Jon chapter is already them at Storms End and we only get a flashback of the battle how they won.
Tyrion: Agree I love that chapter. And the Baristan chapter. I love his POV.
Ironborn: This was my favorite. Euron is just so scary in the books. I wonder what his plan is. And what does he need in Oldtown. And Damphair’s vision. Who do you think that chained woman is? My guess is Viserion.
Mr Derp,
I just finished 3×05 (yes I watch again)
And I think the show and of course the books aren’t about politics at it’s core. Every POV character seem to have one theme that connects them all: Trauma.
All of them has some big trauma that they are trying to resolve. Jon his trauma of being a Bastard. Jaime about him being the Kingslayer. Arya with the beheading of Ned and how that effected her to become a killer. Bran being a cripple. Sansa of what Joffrey did to her and almost being raped. Tyrion being a dwarf and hated by his father. Cat has the whole Ned being unfaithful to her. Ned his trauma about his sister. Daenerys about “Home”, how she long to home but suffer because she was always moving from place to place.
It’s all about trauma. The human heart in conflict with itself.
Tron79,
mau,
US is not a democracy, it’s a republic. (difference is the electoral college. With democracy every vote counts with the same weight, meaning the one with the most votes would always win. last election shows us that is not the case). And US also ranked one of the lowest when it comes to democracy in first world countries. Best democracy in the world is Norway (9,97 Democracy Index). US rank 25 with a 7,96 (still pretty high compared to the amount of countries in the world)
Young Dragon,
Strangely I though about my bike being broken this year where the front wheel was broken. And it was replaced by a new one. But after that the bike rode better.
mau,
I think what GRRM shows us in his books is that the best system is a centrum system. Varys and LF are both trying to implement a horrible system in Westeros. Where Varys tries to go the Extreme Left, where everything is controlled by one who knows what is best for the people, in this case Varys is the one that knows what’s best for the realm, and put somebody there who rule like he sees best (extreme Communism). While LF is the extreme opposite, extreme right (anarchy).
mau,
Agree, and to add, if GRRM or D&D knew a better system, they wouldn’t make a book/tv show about it. They would show it too the world to be implemented.
kevin1989,
I mentioned US because a lot of people know about it. I can talk about “free elections” in my own country, where votes are bought and media are controled by the state. Even in modern times, with internet and education, elections here are just charade.
So to even think that elections in Westeros would be “breaking the wheel” is very naive. With uneducated population propaganda would be stronger than ever. And rich politicians would buy votes for gold or food. And the worst populist would probably win. The worst and the richest. I could even imagine someone like Cersei wining an election. She would either buy votes or use intimidation, like they use it even in modern times in a lot of countries, like mine.
kevin1989,
You have some interesting theories in there…
Yes Euron is quite scary. I thought the woman at the end was Falia Flowers. The Damphair calls her by name. She’s Euron’s current Salt Wife pregnant with his child.
I hope you’re right about a shrinking book. I did really like how ADWD ended, but when I start reading the sample chapters it felt like I was getting a bit bogged down. A few of them did seem like the logical next chapters. Arya’s was great. Ser Barriston’s and Tyrion’s also seemed like the logical next steps.
I didn’t quite get the same reaction from the COTF scene as you did. I’ll have to re-read to see if I notice that Arianne forgets. I didn’t pick that up the first time. You could be right though about the trees and the COTF being sinister… Hard to say. I just want to see more of Bran and less about the caves. I’m ready to dig into about 10 chapters of Bran, and I hope I get my wish. I really love the fantasy elements and I want to explore the COTF world and figure out what Bran’s role is in all of this. It’s got to be major. It’s a great message to say that physically challenged boy can end up saving the world. It can be a really positive message about how one person can make a huge difference and to never give up. So I would rather have had a couple sample BRAN chapters instead of just the walk in the cave. But that’s just me. Your theories are definitely intriguing.
I do look forward to seeing more of Darkstar. Since Arienne looks to be a major character going forward, Darkstar is bound to show up. But make him key to something. I too seem to get the urge to go down tangents, because some of the characters are really exciting and interesting. But the world may expand instead if shrinking. It’s possible that the world will still grow in TWOW and A Dream of Spring may be the shrinking book. I suppose if we get a 1500 TWOW it could grow a little longer and then start shrinking as we work to an exciting action packed ending of TWOW….
Tron79,
“Sansa’s chapter bugged me a bit because it seemed she would be stuck in the Vale for a long time. She was hardly in the last two books at all and became a minor character.“
She was completely absent from Dance.
Yeah. I read AFFC and ADWD as one book and I think she only had three chapters total. It was odd for me as a show watcher.
Mr Derp,
“Valar Morghulis. All Men Must Die. Bran will die someday and there needs to be a succession plan for Westeros.”
But will HE? Speaking hypothetically: He’s a godlike Raven, not a man now. And the previous 3ER lived a thousand years. At the very least he’ll live for donkey’s years, no doubt outliving everyone every one of his contemporaries. And his history will become legend as the facts are forgotten. If he lives forever (or even ridiculously long) but keeps on appointing practical, innovative and well-meaning Hands (later term–Prime Ministers?) the succession question will become moot.
Now, I truly doubt that BRan really has acquired eternal life, but if anyone in GRRM’s “generational saga” has, it’s him. I wonder if George chose the Raven for Bran because of the legend that the six captive ravens at the Tower or London keep it and Britain standing. At amy rate, as we say, “The KIng is dead. Long live the King.” Or as THEY say, “Long may he reign.”
mau,
Agree, and I wonder which country you are from.
Tron79,
But with that theory people think Ned has married Ashara. Cat was first meant for Brandon. And it happened at the time Brandon was still alive. If that’s true if doesn’t matter if Ashara is death. Than Cat’s marriage is still valid. But if Ashara pops up alive, that means that Arya, Bran etc are bastards.
Yes true I want Ban chapters but I think GRRM choses his chapters which don’t spoil anything big. That’s why I don’t think Stannis is going to lose or Theon is going to die. Because that chapter would be a big spoiler if that was true. I think Bran chapter will be game-changer his first. As for Sansa I really believe Sansa’s story is tied with Griff, that’s why I think she didn’t got any chapters in Dance, because that’s the next part for her. I think her Vale chapters will end in 2 chapters ca. But big chapters like 20 pages that she most of the time gets. I mean LF would surely have heard of Aegon’s arrival and want a slice of that cake when he takes over KL. If somebody took over the hardest stronghold in Westeros Storms End, they surely can take KL.
Yes Darkstar is amazing.
I challenge anyone who is hyper critical of S8 to go back and watch it again. This article inspired me to do the same (first time since the Spring). I’ve just finished the premiere and feel it’s a very strong episode on a par or better than the majority of earlier season premiere’s. It’s a very solid 8/10 in my eyes and hard to find too many faults with it (only minor issue I had was Theon sneaking in and freeing Yara against all odds with nobody noticing).
I’m going to watch episode 2 later but I definitely feel the first half of the season is very good before it falls off the cliff.
kevin1989,
So, I will be happy to present you with the best fan theory that came true award if what you outline happens in the books one day. I have to say though that I think it highly doubtful. One of GRRM’s first questions to D&D was who D&D thought were Jon’s parents. I have to believe that R+L=J was one of the things that GRRM shared with D&D. He might not have told them how he got there. I think it’s likely Bran may have a similar flashback in the books one day to help confirm it.
It does seem that Stannis’ story may go on for awhile in the books then….
I hope you’re right about Sansa only needing two chapters to get out of there. I will admit I can’t follow LF’s plans. Anything’s possible with him. I’m not sure if book LF sees himself sitting on the Iron Throne or whether that’s just show LF. I know LF is working to get power while Varys is working for the sake of the realm. I would think LF would see himself marrying Sansa, just like his plan in the show. But if he’s serious about Sansa marrying “The Heir”, then I’m really not sure where her story will lead. It did make some sense that she wasn’t in ADWD, since GRRM split those books geographically, but she had a small role in AFFC as well. You could be right that she’s tied to Young Griff and GRRM just had to wait until Griff’s story was revealed before going further with Sansa. But Young Griff is on a quest to wed and bed Dany, so I’m not sure how Sansa would ever fit into that mess in LF’s brain. I do miss show Sansa and how she’s so devoted to the North. I don’t get the sense that book Sansa would understand Show Sansa at all (at this point).
And is Darkstar “The sword of the evening” if his famous cousin is “The sword of the morning?”. I loved Darkstar’s lines about everyone only remembering his cousin…
This question off comes up regarding Stannis but the most logical answer for me is that Stannis lost the battle of Ice so Mel sacrifices Shireen hoping to bring him back only it’s Jon who comes back. This would play out in the book much better than on TV.
kevin1989,
“Where Varys tries to go the Extreme Left, where everything is controlled by one who knows what is best for the people, in this case Varys is the one that knows what’s best for the realm, and put somebody there who rule like he sees best (extreme Communism). While LF is the extreme opposite, extreme right (anarchy).”
Kevin! I almost fell off my brand new spectacular off-white office chair! Don’t say such things, lol.
mau,
“Breking the wheel in short is changing the world for better, ending wars for throne, making sure that the best people are rulers. For Daenerys it’s populist empty statement.”
Agreed. I think Martin will go for a proto-parlament (senate at first) where all kingdoms shall be equally represented, perhaps at first with appointed representatives (which would open the way to escape from the lords paramount being the representatives in the future, because some day there’d come someone smarter and better fit to represent each kingdoms’ claims at the presence of the higher authority). That was Rhaegar’s vision, only he was too late. But Jamie knows about it, and perhaps Jon will come to learn it from him, or Bran will actually see it in one of his visions. The more people learn about it, the more chances they get for implementing it after the catastrophe.
Mr Derp,
Meanwhile, in Sansa’s mind:
“Wtf! I haven’t heard such BS in my entire life! Thanks Tyrion for reminding me your bastard nephew who posed as son of a king! I think I’d better secede the North. The North stays independent. Thanks again from helping me make up my mind. I shall be queen”.
Mr Derp,
In Sansa’s mind, supplementum:
“She was never my queen, you idiot!
Sorry bro, I won’t be your subject. I’ll have my own kingdom. Tyrion will be allowed to leave his stupidity at the Neck before proceeding to Winterfell if he ever wants to come North”.
mau,
“But as we saw in Rome that system eventually transformed into tyranny as well.”
And then tyranny evolved into monarchy. The princeps was supposed to incarnate a set of principles that derived from the hellenistic and oriental world, such as justice and philanthropy. The princeps/emperor was supposed to care for all his subjects not just the richest or most noble; he was the guarantor of these values.
I don’t see how Westeros could escape from a future king even if that king is surrounded by a senate. Hence, Bran as king. You can’t jump to democracy if you haven’t thought of democracy and Westeros has no democratic thoughts. But it may reach a republican “democracy” with a king. It’s better than absolute monarchy.
Wow. I hope that’s not the way it plays out. I would hate to add to Jon’s guilt if he thought for a minute a little girl was sacrificed to bring him back even if it wasn’t the intention.
How else could it realistically play out given Shireen and Mel remain at Castle Black though? Stannis and his troops are starving in the snow whilst the Boltons/Freys close in. The pink letter indicates they are defeated so unless he escapes back to Castle Black somehow surviving the massacre I don’t see too many options. I highly doubt Jon will be dead for long either so we need a reason/way for Mel to bring him back.
Tron79,
Yes. I think that may be the ironic tragedy of it, especially considering this passage between himself and Val:
On another note I just finished my article inspired re-watch of S8 episode 2 – A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. Even after all this time, it’s still a master piece and easily one of the top ten episodes of the entire series. I’d rate it 9.5/10, with only Winds of Winter and Hardholme scoring higher. If it doesn’t win this poll I’d be very shocked at this point.
The acting, writing, direction and story are all superb. The episode is fraught with tension and really immerses you into the emotions of all the lead characters as they prepare to face death. Also now on re-watch the cracks in Dany are starting to emerge, they were far more subtle in earlier seasons but you see them quite obviously in this episode so it’s definitely not a case of her suddenly going mad in episode 5 if you bother to go back and watch this episode.
Adrianacandle,
Ugg..you could be right. I don’t know if I could take seeing Jon with that much guilt. I think since I still see his face at the end of the show, it would hurt even more to know that GRRM puts that sort of guilt on him in the books. Shireen’s sacrifice does have to serve some purpose though. We know that GRRM said it would happen. I was disturbed by Val’s passage when I originally read it. Again, I had the show in the back of my mind. I remember in the show at the Citadel when they spoke about how it was easier to cure greyscale in children and they were able to stop the disease in Shireen’s case. In my head, Shireen was cured, so I was angry reading Val’s account in the book that it may just be lying dormant. I read it more as possibly a bigoted comment thinking that someone was “unclean” because of how she looked. I thought perhaps GRRM was writing commentary about how people with leprosy were treated in the middle ages. But perhaps it was just foreshadowing as you suggest.
Jon Snowed,
It is a very strong episode the leads into IMO an all time great episode. i think of the two episodes as one true long night. the two episodes feel like the second movie in the lord of the rings series. i think these two episodes are two of the strongest back to back since Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter. And i agree you can start to notice the stuff with Dany more in this episode.
Tron79,
With greyscale, I think neither the maesters or the wildlings know exactly what it is. Greyscale is why the stone men are stone. It does really remind me of leprosy and how it was viewed/”treated” in the middle ages (the Sorrows, where the stone men are, kind of reminds me of a leper colony) and I think we’re seeing two schools of thought on how greyscale is dealt with in ASOIAF. Jon, as a Westerosi noble, believes it can be cured. Val, of the free folk beliefs, believe it is a danger and the sufferer must be euthanized before it can spread.
But yes, it’s a terrible terrible thing, especially because child sacrifice is the very thing Jon was trying to prevent Melisandre from doing in ADWD and now, she may sacrifice a little girl to bring him back. There’s also the Azor Ahai prophecy (Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone). A popular theory is that Jon is the dragon (Targaryen father), Shireen is the stone (greyscale), the salt is from Shireen’s tears and the smoke is from her burning. Melisandre sees “Snow” (with the word capitalized) when she asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and the burning of Shireen was one of GRRM’s three “holy sh!t” moments.
Tron79,
As for Stannis. I think Mel will burn Shireen when she read the pink letter. And Jon is resurected by it. And Stannis will be pissed. But the reason why I think Stannis will survive is that he seemed happy to some strange things: His man died by falling in the ice, but he seems happy about it. So probably he though about a plan at that moment.
As for Sansa, I think I’m one of the few who like her book storyline in the Vale better than her show counterpart. I don’t know why. I’m very invested in the Vale storyline.
As for LF: I think his plan is more about putting anarchy in place. That means destroy every big house. Topple the system. I think he is the real “Breaking the wheel”-guy. Look at LF, he is richest man in westeros, he build all that. But still he is looked down on by every (poor) House.
Jon Snowed,
But would GRRM put out a sample chapter that would spoil the outcome of the battle? Which he would have done if Stannis dies. And that’s not GRRM letting a important character die in battle. I’m still holding onto that Stannis lives. Defeats the Freys. Works with the Manderly’s, fake his death for a short moment. Gives his sword to Manderly. Some of Stannis man takes frey armor and infiltrate the Castle. Ramsay send out the Pink Letter (Have another theory on that *), the castle is opened by those man and Stannis and Manderly’s army take the castle. But Stannis loses the power because Manderly has the biggest army at that moment.
As for Mance how he executes his plans it’s told in the books. Bael the Bard (abel the bard). Using songs that tell his plan. Mance plays songs that his spearwives understand and they execute the plan. Like Bael the bard.
Fully agree. I just finished episode 3 – the long night and watching them back to back they fit so well and both are high quality. The Long Night is an amazing spectacle and truly astounding television. It should easily be one of the best episodes of GOT of all time by default. At the time I enjoyed it overall but had some reservations. Watching it again now I think it’s because the hype was so high for this episode we knew it was going to be special, we expected a blood bath and the bar was so high it was almost impossible to achieve. I think fundamentally though it’s one episode of GOT which asks us to suspend our disbelief and just enjoy the spectacle. Prior to this we got 72 episodes of gritty realism where anyone could die and often did. In this episode we see all the major characters survive against almost impossible odds, often without a scratch. This haunts the episode for me.
I would now give Episode three a 9/10 but it really should be 10/10 if not let down by a few little things. The fact that BotB has 9/10 on IMBD and this is 5.9 is absolutely disgusting work by the trolls and I would challenge anyone to tell me how it’s not better than BotB. Anyone care to share their opinion here?
Jon Snowed,
If this happens, and the Pink Letter is true. D&D really did a number on Stannis’ character didn’t they? Show Stannis chose to sacrifice his own daughter, a huge difference. If I loved book Stannis, I’d be so bitter to find out he had nothing to do with it.
Also, Dany’s vision of the blue eyed King who casts no shadow, I’m thinking Stannis lives a while longer yet. If he dies so soon, why would she see it?
I’m still convinced Jon is taking a holiday inside Ghost.
Efi,
How would you else call what Varys does? Controlling Young Griff since birth, with the good qualities that Varys seems are good qualities, and put him into power and put order back into place. Varys of the books is not the Varys of the show, book Varys is not good like show Varys. Varys of the books even kills children when turn 12 because they serve no purpose anymore because they can’t be his birds anymore and fear they will tell about him. Varys does everything to secure his ideology. And how do you call an ideology that says: Put one person in power who knows what’s best for the realm? Like he does with YG, a boy he shaped since he was young at how Varys wants the King of Westeros to be.
As for LF, he wants chaos, where everyone needs to climb their own ladder in that chaos. Even his whole speech in the book suggest he is a anarchist. Climbing the ladder of chaos, if you succeed you succeed else you fall. The ones that try and succeed are rewarded. It’s the extreme of capitalism there is.
And we know GRRM doesn’t like extreme left or extreme right. And we know that he likes to put politics in his books.And there’s a reason why LF and Varys are the exact opposite in the books. What they want is opposite. Their viewing on ruling is the opposite. And both are not to be trusted in the books. They are the extremes, that scheme, kill, twist etc to get their goal.
Jon Snowed,
It makes no sense that Long Night is considered so much worse than BOTB on IMDB. It’s just trolling. Go and watch fan videos and reactions were great.
Battle tactics in GoT were always silly just like they were in LOTR and every other blockbuster and and spectacle in BOB was weaker .
Jon Snowed,
Yea i think i rate it a 10, my original watch was an 8. I watched the episode my wife and with some friends (all non book readers), and they were stunned at how amazing the episode was and they all starting going crazy when Arya defeated the Night King. So i rewatched the episode then next morning before work and i see what they all saw. it was truly amazing. I don’t mind the lack of deaths. We still got, Edd, Theon, Jorah, Beric, and Mel. Mel and Theon i thought were great deaths. Theon dieing a Stark, which is what he wanted the moment he wasnt there when Robb died. And Mel death was visually incredible to watch unfold. I love the moment when Jon and the Night king were on the ground and it felt to me the night king didnt want any part in fighting Jon one on one. Hes now seen him in action twice and probably knew he didnt stand a chance one on one.
Now that Im writing this i want to change my vote from the Bells to this episode for best overall.
Jon Snowed,
I agree here. I would not even rate a single episode of got below a 8.
Jenny,
Ghost hotel.
The thing I wonder, what will happen when you sacrifice somebody with Greyscale to the lord of Light. If Val is right and it’s not clean. What will happen to the person who is resurrected then. How will he return?
Jon Snowed,
Not to mention Beyond the Wall. How is that episode better than The Long Night? Lol
Stew,
Using death count to determine quality of writing was always strange. How many people died in final battle against Sauron? In final battle against Thanos? Against Voldemort? How many people died in Blackwater? BOTB? Hardhome? Spoils of War?
Why it was so important that 15 characters die in The Long Night?
Since Val was referring to Shireen’s infection/disease, fire is used to cleanse infection/disease, and in this way, it could have a purifying effect on the greyscale (burning/killing the infection away — but with it, Shireen is burned away too). Like how you can put instruments in flames to sterilize them of bacteria before using them on wounds. And the spiritual idea that fire “cleanses” and “purifies” notions of “corruption”.
mau,
I think people hold GOT to a much higher standard and it is hard to deliver it all the time. Which is truly unfair since more main characters died in the Long Night then Lord of the Rings movies combined. I dont judge it by death count but i know people i have talked to use that against the episode. When i bring up those deaths they say they dont count since they aren’t main characters. its crazy that theon and jorah have been since the very first episode and they still treat them like they arent even side characters.
Stew,
I mean it’s true that GoT is put under scrutiny like no other show or movie, but if they didn’t care that no one died in BOB and Beyond the Wall why they care now?
The show was consistent. Their expectations were not.
69 episodes came before the Long Night, not 72. But I agree 703 is a masterpiece along with the final season as a whole and the entirety of the show.
The thing is, that everyone I know who watched GoT, like Beyond the Wall better than the Long Night. They like the character moments better. And I have too say I agree with them. The scenes between the characters in Beyond the Wall were just amazing. Jorah and Jon. Sandor and Thormund and many more. The boat scene with Jon and Dany, the death of Vyserion.
the thing is the long night was all about the action, and beautiful scenery (like the shot above the clouds, damn that was beautiful). With character moments we have the scenes in the crypts with Sansa and Tyrion and Missandei. which for me aren’t that remember-able as for instance Jon offering Jorah his father’s sword. Or Beric speech about fighting death.
And we have the beautiful send-off of Mellisandre. Which is one of my favorite scenes of the whole saga.
For me action is not why I watch a tv-show, I also won’t watch action movies, not a fan of it. And with reruns I’m not really looking forward to action-based scenes. But I will look forward with some major character scenes. Jaime and Brienne bathscene for instance. And that’s what for me the Long Night is. A big action sequence with amazing visuals. And it’s an amazing episode, but when choosing which episode I’m looking forward too with my rerun, the long night is not one of them, because I’m not that invested in action.
mau,
No one died in spoils of war either. yea i dont get it i just think people want to be woke and hop on the bandwagon of some hate.
I, for one, think 706 is brilliant and one of my all time favs. Like you said, the character moments are brilliant in that episode. Loved them all.
Jon Snowed,
Whow, what a thought! Brilliant!
It may be why Mel rushes to leave the Shieldhall and doesn’t speak to Jon at all before he is murdered.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6ahEVwU8AAmtql.jpg
kevin1989,
Well Varys actually means “put one person in power; I know what’s best for the realm”.
And LF is the worst capitalist ever. He’s hoarding in the Vale for the winter. He plans to make tons of money while everyone who doesn’t have the money to buy supplies will die.
[there were laws in the middle ages against this tactic]
I just hadn’t made the connections.
kevin1989,
So in this huge battle to save the world they needed less action? The whole point of 802 was to have all those great character moments so 803 can be pure action.
In every battle episode first half is building up with character moments and second half is action. The only difference here is that it was separated into 2 parts.
I mean the only other option was to make one mega episode with 145 minutes of screentime where 802 and 803 would be just one episode.
kevin1989,
I loved Beyond the Wall as well for these exact reasons. I really loved The Long Night also, but I guess what made me not have the same feeling others had about it’s lack of character interactions is that I treated it more as a part 2/continuation of episode 2. I think had this season been on a binge model like Netflix, the episode would have been received better since people would have likely watched them back to back. But I personally prefer the weekly releases and liked the change in format for that episode. For whatever it’s worth I voted for episode 2 because of all of those interactions and especially the nod to Dunk and Egg.
Jon Snowed,
I’d give The Long Night a 7.5/10 personally. For a few reasons,
1. I could barely see what was going on, 1 point off straight away.
2. The dragon battle was incomprehensible, even with better lighting I wouldn’t have known what was going on.
3. The crypt section.
4. Characters facing imminent death, cut to another character, cut back and they are inexplicably fine. I’m not bothered by the lack of deaths, but how exactly did Sam survive? Brienne should have died about 4 times, don’t put them in those situations if they aren’t going to die at any point.
Basically, great on first viewing when I was too stressed to care, but on 2nd viewing it went down in my estimation. Not bad by any means, but probably my least favourite battle episode, its best not to give this one much thought and just let it wash over you. Unfortunately I couldn’t always do that because I couldn’t tell what was going on. The thing that should bother me, the ‘controversial’ choice (Arya killing the NK) didn’t bother me at all. BoB is only ‘better’ because I could follow it better. With better lighting The Long Night would be an 8 or 9.
The only full battle episode I genuinely love, is Watchers on the Wall, Blackwater wasn’t really the same, there was much more to that episode with Sansa/Cersei etc, and Hardhome was like 10 minutes of the episode. Only BoB comes close in terms of battle length. Don’t pay much attention to my opinion on this, I’m not crazy about the GOT battles.
mau,
Got has very rarely killed people during battles. They killed more characters during The Long Night than the entire saga of LOTR. Very few critics criticized no characters dying in earlier battles. Then season 8 came around and they complained nobody died. They killed I think a dozen characters in season 8. More than any other TV show I can think of. I remember season 5 big complaint it was to dark and nihilistic. Season 6 and 7 everyone has plot armor. They kill people and people get angry. They have people survive and people scream plot armor. It’s like they can’t win. George also famously said “The showrunners are more bloodthirsty than I am”. Yet D&D have been accused of plot armor for years. Hardcore books fan were outraged they killed Stannis and Barristan. So if they had them both survive one surviving a battle and the other against a dozen men would they be screaming plot armor?
Stew,
Jaime and Bronn surviving Spoils of War was preposterous, that last ditch save from one horse to another, no way would they have survived that. Beyond the Wall was silly for many reasons, lack of deaths barely registers. This is why I don’t talk about S7, I don’t have anything good to say about it.
I think, for those complaining about the lack of deaths in the Long Night, it’s because of the build up, you really felt that most people sat around that fire were going to die. Everything had been leading up to this moment, 7 and a half seasons building up this threat to humanity, you’d expect a few more deaths, it’s the end, all bets are off. That’s not entirely unreasonable to me. It ties into the surprise that the battle only lasted one episode, when I think people expected to see it spread across multiple. There was a definite sense of…. was that it? Is it really over just like that?
In the context of the season, it’s not a problem for me, because Jaime had an appointment with Cersei, and Missandei and Dany died later. It’s obvious why they didn’t create a bloodbath.
I completely agree. A number of people have talked about an organised trolling by Reddit users, making multiple accounts. It’s the only logical explanation.
I have the final three episodes still to watch (probably tomorrow) but oddly I am going into them with a sense of trepidation despite the fact I loved the first three and would objectively consider them high standard even compared with prior seasons.
Fireandblood87,
When you consider all criticism in the last 8 seasons, it’s full of contradictions and it doesn’t make much sense. Especially when I know several critics that always change their position what the show should do based on what is show doing now, so they always want the opposite.
I even remember how GoT was mocked for endless monologues, slow pace and lack of action in S2 and S3. And then those same people whined in later seasons.
I remember that Alan Sepinwell who always disliked GoT said after S7 that GoT has to change because it will all end up on zombie apocalypse and then after S8 he said that GoT betrayed GRRM’s vision lol
And it’s always funny how these people know better what GRRM’s vision is than people who actually worked with him.
Jenny,
I agree with what George Lucas said while he was working on Return of the Jedi and when he was against the idea that Han Solo should die so we can feel high stakes. Because that’s cheep way to create it. And he was right. Expect Obi Wan, no one important died and yet the stakes were much higher than in ST where they killed Luke and Han and Kylo is still pathetic excuse for a villain.
Jon Snowed,
Why trepidation?
mau,
Yea Sepinwall really disappointed me. He has a right to his opinion but when it came to GOT he was constantly contradicting himself. He seems to have a weird personal issue with the showrunners. Many critics do Joanna Robinson has hated them on a personal level for years and it shows in her writing.
And one important thing when we speak about killing too many characters in one battle is that people became desetisised to it. They just stop caring. You have to pace the deaths in one battle. It’s not about being affraid to kill character. It’s about being affraid that people won’t care if you kill too many too quickly. You can’t give powerful deaths to all of them.
And you can’t give powerful deaths to characters killed by zombies. If Jaime and Hound just randomly died, killed by some white walker is that what people would like more then their character based deaths in The Bells? Or if Varys was killed in that crypt and not burned by Dany?
Fireandblood87,
Benioff and Weiss didn’t have great relationship with some people in media. I don’t know why but it’s clear they didn’t.
mau,
I agree with that, it’s the easiest way to create high stakes. But GOT did something different with the Long Night. They showed characters floundering in impossible situations, cut away to someone else, and when we went back they were fine. There was a constant feeling of, ‘wait, did that person just die?!’ ‘oh no, they are fine’. It was in all of the reaction video’s. They did it at the end as well, they cut to every character in peril, that’s how I knew that the NK would be defeated, because otherwise every character would die in that moment, and I knew that wouldn’t happen, it removed all of the tension from the episode right at the end.
I’m putting this out there now, Kylo isn’t really a villain, and he is the Skywalker referred to in the title of the next movie. He and Rey are both protagonists. Feel free to come back and laugh when the movie comes out but that’s my position as of now.
mau,
Which I still can’t figure out why. They never attack the media. They never have said anything hatefull or rude ever. The Austin panel every person in the room said it was not how Twitter said it was. Whenever they speak they get a barrage of hate. They act humble they get called arrogant. Craig Mazin Chernobyl creator said on his podcast how ridiculous the hate they got for that panel was. They said nothing wrong on that panel
mau,
Agree fully! Beyond the wall is one of the weakest episodes of the entire series because it blatantly asks you to suspend your belief and stretches beyond reason or logic. It’s also not well set-up.
On the bodycount front agree it’s strange, I had built up in my own mind an expectation that we would see big characters die. Instead we saw a host of support characters fall (which is fair and was very well handled) but the main characters just seem to survive against all odds with barely a scratch. At the time I was thinking how has Missandei survived, Greyworm, Sam, Jamie, Pod etc. Realistically they should have died. That said clearly they had the set-up for Missandei next episode only it was executed (excuse the pun) very poorly in my view.
Jenny,
Surviving “impossible situation” criticism would have some merit if this was the first time to happen in GoT. That’s how every blockbuster is written. And no matter what they say GoT was blockbuster.
When it comes to Kylo he can’t be protagonist because Rey is protagonist and he is written as her enemy in TFA. But it’s clear they have no idea what they are doing with those movies, because in TFA Finn was male protagonist and not Kylo. Then in TLJ Finn is reduced to funny black man and Kylo becomes more important and then Rian kills Snoke so Kylo can be the main antagonists. But since he is pathetic JJ is bringing back Palpatine.
So complete mess.
I stopped reading both long ago. Talk about biased, repetitive, contradicting, and tedious.
Fireandblood87,
Maybe something was happening behind the scenes. I heard that Benioff and Weiss refused to give interviews to Joanna Robinson many times. And to mainstream media in general except EW. They gave one interview to Time before S7. But mostly they refuse to communicate with them.
A lot if twitter liberal critics see them as proxy for white patriarchy because they are spending all their time blaiming white straight man for their failures in life.
Jon Snowed,
I think this all goes back to very strange and unique structure GoT had.
It’s the only story that I know with two natural, yet completely different, climaxes – War against the Dead and War for the Throne.
In every other fantasy story you have one main in the end, but here you have two. And since one has to end before the other one war will inevitably feel less important. And that’s the case with Great War.
mau,
S7E1-4: Act I (Introduction)
S7E5-7: Act II (Rising Action)
S8E1-3: Act III (Climax)
–
S8E4-6: Act IV (Denouement)
Everything except for the final three episodes of S8 basically has the makings of a three-act structure, similar to the prior seasons of GoT, where one could usually call the first four episodes “Act I”, then the next three episodes “Act II”, then the final three episodes “Act III”. The first three episodes of S8 are, in a sense, the real climax of S7 with its final desperate stand against the impending supernatural apocalypse, and the next three episodes are a Scouring of the Shire-esque epilogue which GRRM states he always wanted to have for ASOIAF.
mau,
True all they had to do was take one look at her Twitter feed and read her writing. She has said some real childish stuff about them. She is the one who started the rumor they were fired from Star Wars. She took the podcast down and then her fans and her complained on Twitter and played the victim card. You start a rumor with no evidence then complain about people being mean to you (nobody was being mean to her).So why would they give her an exclusive interview. All she would do is twist what they said into something negative in her writing. I think there is a problem at times in the industry with White guys having an advantage, but the blame should be on the studio not D&D they didn’t do anything wrong.
mau,
He wasn’t really though, he was intrigued and wanted to be her teacher. If you compare the interrogation of Poe and Rey, they are entirely different in tone. The lights are on and he is knelt in front of her, he doesn’t impose on her in the same way and she overpowers him. We’ll just see when the movie comes out, I give you leave to be smug if I’m wrong.
With the survival thing, I’m finding it difficult to get my point across. I’m not really talking about the last minute saves, Jaime saved Brienne and vice versa, Ed saved Sam, Dany saved Jon on the ground, that’s fine, happens all the time, along with falls and head injuries. I think it’s how they cut the scenes, they stopped showing people getting rescued, they were just in a different place when we wen’t back to them. Tormund was over run, and the next time we see him, he’s on top of a pile of bodies. Sam was basically being eaten, you think he’s a gonner but next time we see him, he’s crying on his own, how did that happen? It’s like you said before, use too many deaths, and it lessens the impact, show people surviving these incredible odds for too long, and we start to lose the tension. For me, it lost the tension, right at the end when I needed it most. I think they talked about trying to balance the episode length, how long can people watch a battle? I think maybe I didn’t last as long as they hoped I would and it lost me.
Farimer123,
I don’t see battle at KL as some sort of less important epilogue. It’s more important for the plot than Scouring of the Shire.
Scouring of the Shire was cut from Return of the King and no one cared. People who never read the books haven’t felt like something is missing. You can’t cut battle of KL from GoT.
Jenny,
Kylo will be “redeemed” in the last movie. That was clear the moment they brought Palpatine back. But the point is that he served as antagonist to Rey in the first two movies. He killed Han Solo. He killed Snoke. He is the reason Luke is dead. And yet he feels much weaker than Darth Vader. So killing characters doen’t rise stakes as we saw in new Star Wars. No matrer how many characters they kill, First Order will always feel like poor imitation of the Empire.
And when it comes to the Long Night cutting from character to character is inevitable in multy POV battle. Infinity War did the same. You can’t see everything.
Fireandblood87,
I think she started to hate them after they refused to give her interviews. Or maybe they just disliked her because she was annoying book purist on her podcast.
Or maybe Benioff and Weiss are just too rich and powerful to give a fuck about online journalism and what they write about them.
Jon Snowed,
There weren’t any illogical situations in beyond the wall!
Jack Bauer 24,
Same. I maybe share my opinion that I wish that they were closer too the books, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t love almost every single moment of GoT (some nude scenes is not something I watch when rerun, I skip those. And most of Theon torture scenes I skip).
I can understand why people were not content with the last season, and I can understand why people loved it. For me I’m in between. And I still love every moment.
Ten Bears,
Amazing moment.
mau,
I’ll fess up, I haven’t seen the last Marvel movies, as I realised that I didn’t care. Maybe I’d have the same issue, I don’t know. I do get battle fatigue.
Han’s death did actually weaken him, that was the point, he is trying to be like Vader, but he can’t because he is constantly being drawn to the light side of the force. He thought killing Han would do the job, but it wrecked him (that’s why Rey won in TFA, along with his wound). Snoke tells him that he is unbalanced in TLJ, that’s because he is a mess, he is weak, absolutely. Rey is drawn to the dark side, and has some anger issues, they will meet in the middle and balance the force that way. Become grey perhaps?
If a guy can kill a bunch of kids and be redeemed in the end, I think it’s safe to say that Kylo will be as well. I actually thought he was right in TLJ, he killed Snoke and said that they should let the past die, he was on to something, he was just going about it the wrong way, which is why Rey had to peace out, he’ll have to figure that out on his own.
Both are worse for different reasons. But that’s exactly what anarchism means. Survival of the fittest. You work for your money and with that money you buy your food. If you don’t have money you don’t eat. Luckily even most anarchist in this word don’t lean that far.
And I think (I’m not expert and I don’t have read the next too books) that that’s GRRM take on Varys and LF. Both extremes on the opposite of the pole. And both are bad. Balance is needed. And that’s something he puts in with everything. Fire/Ice both bad, but a balance is good. Etc.
As for LF there are theories what he exactly wants and some are very interesting. It seems that LF grandfather comes from Braavos. And that shield of LF granfather resembles something (too lazy now too look up) of a family that was important in Braavos and had connections with the Bank of Braavos if Im not mistaken. Some think that he’s doing that, emptying the faults of Westeros to get into the pockets of the bank of Braavos. And what is best to empty that as fast as possible. War.
And there’s a theory about LF being an old bird of Varys and that he learned the game from Varys. And that the name of his sigil shows that. Mockingbird. A bird that mocks. That he is mocking Varys with it. Probably not true but I like it.
mau,
That’s not what I said. Of course the long night needed to be like it was. Especially if it was contained only in WF. I’m not saying it was a bad episode. It’s was amazing. But for me in the end, I remember character moments. That’s something I prefer, especially with rewatch. So I choose Beyond the wall over the Long night because for me that’s an episode that I would rather re watch.
Gfx,
True.
Jenny,
The thing I love about BoB was Jon’s mental resurrection. He was back to life for 6,5 episode but still he was not alive, he even state to Mel that he doesn’t want to be brought back again. And then Jon fights to live.
With Blackwater I cried my eyes out with the end-sequence, it still gets me, even with the rerun. Cersei with Tommen.
With WotW I cried (and hope still do) with Ygritte’s death.
Jenny,
The point is – Palpatine never killed anyone in OT and yet he and Empire felt more dangerous than caricatures that we have in ST.
Snoke, Kylo and Hux are just screaming the entire movie, Han and Luke are dead and they still don’t feel threatening.
You don’t need to kill character to show high stakes.
mau,
Yes, I’m with you, we went on a little journey but I think we are on the same page with this. The lack of deaths in The Long Night didn’t bother me. I obviously have a few other issues related to that, that you don’t share, but that’s fine.
mau,
Partially true. In that sense, yeah, the “Last War” is much more important to the plot of GoT than the Scouring of the Shire. Lots of main GoT players still had unfinished business. The WW threat wasn’t the only thing that mattered; if that was the case, then like 75% of the show didn’t matter.
LotR’s plot revolves entirely around destroying the Ring to take down Sauron. Once that was done, the Scouring of the Shire was really just an afterthought in the grand scheme of things. Tolkien included it to demonstrate that even though the big evil dark lord was defeated, evil and war still managed to find their way to the Shire – which was protrayed as the safest place in Middle Earth up to that point. The Shire could never truly know peace after it happened.
But when it was cut from RotK, a lot of people cared a lot. If today’s online media had existed in 2004, that movie would’ve gotten hatred up the wazoo. You’d be seeing shitty video essays by shitty mom’s-basement critics with titles like “Why excluding the Scouring of the Shire ruins the entire LotR trilogy” with an indignant thumbnail of Peter Jackson for good measure.
With all that being said, the WW were the main existential threat to EVERYONE. With them gone, the stakes do get smaller for everyone but our main characters and the inhabitants of one big city.
You really had to go there? 😛
Jenny,
As for SW I think the same as you, I have a feeling that the last movie Rey and Kylo will work together against a new enemy.
Farimer123,
I will never forget watching RoTK, I was silently crying my eyes out as the credits rolled, and as I was leaving the cinema, some guy said ‘well, that could have ended 15 minutes earlier’. I could not believe it, outrageous opinion. I often hear people complain that there were about 4 endings, even now. Audiences wouldn’t have tolerated the scouring of the shire. So people may have been mad, but I don’t know that they would have been that upset over it.
The Harry Potter movies are more recent, and had more changes, I don’t think people went mad over that either. GOT seems to be unique, well that and SW.
kevin1989,
Of course you do, that is because I am 100% correct (we’ll see how embarrassed I am in Dec).
mau,
As somebody who had read the LotR books. I couldn’t care less that they cut the scouring of the Shire. The end-product of the movies were for me just brilliant. I watch them already 40+ times and still 1 a 2 times a year.
mau,
Agree with this in the first 2 movies. But I disagree with that he was weaker than darth vader. Kylo was very injured and still could fight, Other’s couldn’t have fight after gotten hit like Kylo did.
kevin1989,
You jumped into that conversation out of nowhere. It doesn’t matter if you like 706 more. The point is that 803 has 5.6 score on IMDB while 706 has 9.2 or something like that which makes no sense. There was no such drastic difference in quality. The entire S8 was reviewbombed.
mau,
Hux is feels like he should be in Spaceballs not Star Wars. I’m still not sure what he is so dam angry about, but he sure is angry.
Jenny,
People did get mad over Harry Potter changes and HP fandom hates David Yates. But the difference is that social media weren’t that strong back then so nerd rage was contained on fan boards and never really went mainstream. But rage over every detail in Fantastic Beasts on the other hand…..
And I think HP fandom wasn’t as male dominated as SW and GoT. Male nerds are the most toxic. Female toxic nerds are on tumblr and they don’t care for the rest of the world. And even then I feel they are less toxic. Just completely ridiculous because they see sexism and racism in everything but still less toxic. Some of them are now acusing D&D for child abuse lol
That last 20/30 minutes of the movie is very important. It was needed to end the movie perfectly, to make sense, to make sure the characters had a satisfying ending. Still now after 40+ times watching I still cry with the ending of RotK.
And thus it was. A fourth age of middle-earth began. And the fellowship of the ring… though eternally bound by friendship and love… was ended. Thirteen months to the day since Gandalf sent us on our long journey… we found ourselves looking upon a familiar sight. We were home. How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on… when in your heart you begin to understand… there is no going back? There are some things that time cannot mend… some hurts that go too deep… that have taken hold. Bilbo once told me his part in this tale would end… that each of us must come and go in the telling. Bilbo’s story was now over. There would be no more journeys for him… save one. My dear Sam. You cannot always be torn in two. You will have to be one and whole for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be and to do. Your part in the story will go on.
Fireandblood87,
Snoke, Kylo and Hux feel like SNL parodies of Palpatine, Vader and Tarkin.
I mean there is a reason why JJ is bringing Palpatine back. And he made Admiral Pryde to replace Hux. Because no one can take Hux and Kylo seriously.
kevin1989,
People still bitch about Tom Bombadil though, which amuses me greatly. Who cares? lol I have to think that is a joke by this point. Cutting Saruman’s death, that was a problem imo.
Jenny,
I can only imagine with current culture of forced fan outrage on YT how many videos would have been made about how Jackson ruined LOTR when he cut Saruman. And the fact that Tolkien’s son didn’t like the movies would be like “Lucas hates Kennedy” videos of today.
mau,
Adam Driver’s skit was pretty great though.
KK says that Palp was always coming back in IX, maybe she is lying I don’t know, but that’s what she said.
mau,
That and Christopher Lee wasn’t happy about the cut, that would have been a nice story to get upset about.
Why shouldn’t I enter a conversation? As far as I know I have the right to express my opinion. And my opinion is that I liked 7×06 more than 8×03. And as I stated before I think that low ratings season 8 got is just bullcrap. I wouldn’t rate a single episode of GoT below 8,0.
Jenny,
They tried to implement Tom Bombadil into the movie but it was not working. And the only reason Tom Bombadil was in the books was for Tolkiens children who wanted that character in the books. The thing is, I could understand that they would be upset if LotR would have been een tv-show. I mean then you just could focus one episode on Tom Bombadil and it would feel as a little side story. But as for a movie that doesn’t work. But that’s still why I love Jacksons movie, he still tried to implement everything. Scouring of the Shire was also a very hard decision for him, especially as a big fan of the movies.
As for Sauruman’s death. I agree, but luckily I can’t remember the theatrical version anymore. For me LotR is the extended version.
mau,
Kylo seems ok my guess is they will try and turn him into the good guy. Then have him die saving somebody. Disney won’t take Rey and make her dark. Imagine if Disney took Rey and turned her to the dark side. Then she burned down a city. 🤔 That would be a good twist. Never would happend. I would applaud them if they did though.
Trepidation only because I fear I won’t enjoy it anywhere near as much as I did the first three episodes. That said, I’m wondering if my enjoyment was tainted by the negativity which took place largely online at the time or if the show dipped in quality after peaking during the Long Night.
I’ll watch them tomorrow though and provide my comments in here.
kevin1989,
You can say whatever you want but we were talking how nonsensical scores for the Long Night are if you consider some other battle episodes like Beyond the Wall. And then you jumped and said that you liked 706 more. Well that wasn’t the point.
Jenny,
I know about Lee. But Tolkien’s son also disliked the entire trilogy and said they missed the point of the books.
mau,
Pacing in season 8 people keep yelling. Season 7 has some extremely fast pacing way worse than season 8 in my opinion. Seasons 8 besides a quick stop at Kings Landing had 3 episodes all at Winterfell. Then the first half of episode 4 for was at Winterfell. We then shifted to Dragonstone and to Kings Landing for the rest of the entire season. I think we had more Daenerys stuff than any other season. I could be wrong about that, but it sure seemed like it. I don’t know I rewatched the entire series and I just don’t think it was rushed. I think the pace picked up a but but it was far from rushed for me. Yes I agree the show was review bombed. I saw many reddit threads with thousands of likes explaining how to create multiple accounts to give a 1 star.
I was commenting on your assumption that 8×03 is much much better than 7×06. And that’s where I was commenting on that I disagree with that 8×03 is better than 7×06. I like 7×06 more. Read your comment back and read how you put it almost as a fact that 8×03 is much much better than 7×06 and that it’s silly that if somebody finds 7×06 better.
kevin1989,
That wasn’t the context of that conversation. When I say Beyond the Wall I clearly don’t mean Tormund’s dick jokes but action part of the episode. Because that was what the original post was about. Plot armor and battle tactics.
And it is silly that someone can think that was better in 706.
kevin1989,
I liked them both. I would go with The Long Night. I agree everything is at least a 8/10.
They truly are amazing. Season 8 keeps getting better and better every rewatch. Even better, do a full series rewatch to fully appreciate all of the callbacks, foreshadowing, and payoffs to every character and storyline. Dany’s descent into madness, Jon uniting the north and then being brought back to unite with Dany to defeat the AotD, Sansa’s ascent to QitN, Bran the Broken’s journey to king, Arya’s whole journey to defeat the NK is the biggest payoff in tv history, etc. I think it’s time for another rewatch!
mau,
Damn.
I’ve never been as attached to SW as I am to GoT. But am I the only one here who enjoys both GoT S8 AND the SW sequel trilogy?
I’m not nearly as invested in SW as GoT, but I think S8 is brilliant and I love the SW prequels and sequels.
kevin1989,
I agree with you. Apart from the Arya-Sansa scenes, I really loved everything about Beyond The Wall. Especially the character moments were very good. And I loved the end with Jon and Dany. I always fastforward Sansa and Arya, but the rest of the episode I’ve rewatched 10 times or more and some scenes probably 30 times and more.
The Long Night I watched only 2 or 3 times.
Jack Bauer 24,
I love GoT S8 as well (though perhaps not as fervently as you lol).
I’ve enjoyed the SW sequels a lot even though I can acknowledge they have a few problems – TFA could’ve stood to take more risks, and TLJ didn’t really seem to know what to do with many of its side characters.
As for the SW prequels… to be honest I never really cared much for them. IMO RotS is the only one of them that’s worthy of the older movies. It’s about as good as RotJ, which means it’s alright-but-not-great.
Farimer123,
I enjoy ST as some sort of writing exercise.
I liked TFA. But I think Rian made all wrong choices in TLJ. As Hamil said – I just fundamentally disagree with his concept of Luke. I just doesn’t make sense that he would give up on everything. Kylo betraying him wasn’t enough.
And in general I don’t like the idea that all OT characters had to be turned into failures so new heroes can repeat what they did. The whole story will end with Rey vs Palpatine. Why? We already saw that in ROTJ.
It would be if some poor imitation of Harry Potter killed Voldemort again while Harry was just complete failure.
I definitely go with episode 2 here. Not hating on D & D, but to me there was a significant quality increase in both episode 2s of S7 and S8. I actually felt things in E2, real good conversations amongst the characters and they did a nice job handling some of the more longstanding relationships in the show.
To me, Bryan’s episodes took me back to the glory years of the shows. It was nice to be reminded of how I once felt about the show, if only for 2 out of the last 13 hours.
mau,
I don’t know where the conflict is. I liked Luke depressed on an island. I liked that he didn’t fight. Instead he projected himself. My problem is I don’t care about the characters. Finn jokes. Poe is a rebel. Rey is mysterious. Kylo is angry.
A no brainer for me! It has to be Ep2: “Knight of the Seven Kingdoms”.
The worst – Ep3: “The Long Night”. Simply because it was so dark and for a good part of it all I saw was a black TV screen 🙁
mau,
I still believe Rey will turn to the darkside, and Kylo will fight Palpatine in the end. But we will see where it will head.
And personally I never found SW that great. the OT was fun to watch, and as a child it was my favorite movies. But I grew out of it. The story is not that great compared to LotR, GoT, HP or some other big sagas. The characters are not that great in my opinion. (Which I think the ST did better, I was more invested in Lya there than in the whole OT). I find the story a bit childish imho. With the PT personally I found the characters more interesting, but I hated that annoying greenscreen filming technique, the film feels so fake because of that. And with the first 6 movies I found RotS the most interesting. (Not really fan of RotJ with the furries that beat the shit out of everything).
As with the ST. Isn’t Rey the daughter of Palpatine? At least that is what I always though since FA.
Fireandblood87,
It made sense to me, he essentially created Kylo when he tried to kill him in his sleep, sealed his fate is perhaps more accurate. Snoke had been in Ben’s head since he was a child, and Luke sensed it, no wonder he felt depressed. iirc, he had a similar thing happen in the expanded universe, a bunch of his students went to the dark side, he even went to the dark side himself for a while. Those books aren’t canon anymore, but it hasn’t stoped Disney mining them for plots (Han and Leia’s son going to the dark side and Luke being exiled etc). He was right about the Jedi being a bit sh*t as well, they couldn’t sense a Sith Lord right under their noses, incredible.
Anyway, I don’t think Kylo was ever meant to be the big bad, he was set up as a Vader wannabe, and that is accurate. When people say he’s a rubbish villain, that always felt like the point to me, he’ll never be Vader because he doesn’t have it in him. Now Snoke being dispatched like that, could be a problem (depends on IX). Hux is a clown as well, they played him for ‘laughs’ in TLJ and I wasn’t a fan.
If Kylo goes full Sith in TRoS, well, I’m wrong about everything lol. I don’t often get things totally wrong though. Him making a sacrifice and being redeemed at the end is the most predictable thing out there, so I don’t think that will happen, he’ll be collaborating with Rey after their first battle, that clip of them fighting in the trailer is probably the only time they fight.
My theory is that they find middle ground and stop looking at things in black and white, to me that is balance, and they emphasised that in TLJ. This could be where I am way off base and they end it as they always do.
I am just watching Thronecast after episode 3 (never watched it after it aired as I was on vacation) and they raise some very good points:
– A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms built expectations that anyone could and likely will die in the Long Night. This probably feeds into the disappointment that some had especially when main characters were surviving against the odds. They acknowledge this very well,
– The commentators all called out that a clash between Jon and Dany is surely coming and the story is building towards it. They mention that this is likely to be a big part of the final episodes so again the Dany heal turn was apparent to many.
– They mention that the Dothraki are wiped out after the Long Night. Again this was one of my gripes in the latter episodes where they magically respawned. This is something that could easily have been addressed if they acknowledged Dany left a skeleton force at Dragonstone rather than have them respawn.
– They also predict that Jamie and Brienne will hook up. Something I hadn’t seen predicted before E4 aired either.
– There is a lot of talk now about Jon being the rightful heir and who will back him and who will back Dany. Again I feel this was one of my major disappointments in the final three episodes as it seemed to almost fall by the way side just to see Dany finally lose it.
Jack Bauer 24,
…and there’s also Arya slicing and dicing zombies…
So I just watched episode 4 again. On first watch I felt it was very short but should have been two episodes and it was probably the weakest of the season.
On re-watch I enjoyed it a lot more. For the first hour it’s on a par with early season 2-3 in terms of character focus and the way they handle surviving the great war. Lot’s of great moments, all very well executed and the continued descent of Dany is clear albeit with a few little shoots that she can avoid the descent into madness. My only grip was seeing D&D in their cameo, now I know it’s them I can’t help but notice them.
The last ten minutes set-up the grand finale pretty well, the Varys/Tyrion scheming we knew was coming. The Iron Born attack could have been better executed, just have them miss the first shot, show the injured dragon moving more slowly so easier to hit, have them come from under cloud cover etc. Moving on they clearly went for shock and awe there and with the Missandei death. I feel if this was longer it would have been better but it’s by no means bad.
For me I’d give this 7.5/10, maybe 8/10 it’s not as strong as the first three episodes but it’s definitely not weak compared to season 5 or 2 episodes.
Looking back on episode 4 this is where people began going hard with the criticism and I can only think it’s because they didn’t like the direction where Dany was heading because this episode is no different to earlier seasons.
Jon Snowed,
True. I agree that Euron attack wasn’t executed great. But it did look great.
But execution of Euron’s attack was no different than “20 good man” in S5. I would even say it was much better. But Dany is far more popular than Stannis so her downfall was more controversial.
And I agree that character moments in WF were great in that episode. Almost on 802 level.
I loved Varys and Tyrion’s scenes in this episode.
In the leaked outline for S7 there was great scene with Cersei and Qyburn from 707 where they talk about Daenerys and her titles and irony if it, just before Dragonpit meeting. It’s shame they didn’t use that scene for 804. It would be great to see it here.
And I can’t find leaked outline for S7 anymore, but some of the scenes from S7 were moved to S8. Bronn’s scene from 801 and Missandei and Grey Worm’s scene from 802. I even think that Bronn scene was actually shot for S7 but it was cut and moved to 801.
I am now watching Thronecast after E4 and they are highlighting a lot that Dany is set to become the mad queen in the next episode and that they realise how hard they have been hitting the viewers with this. My question is then how did people seriously not see this coming? They highlight at this point that Dany is consumed with getting the Iron Throne and no longer about being a good ruler too just like Cersei.
They also poke fun how easily Euron took out the dragon at the end of the episode though. Also Milos also mentions the fact that Jon didn’t say good bye to Ghost which I recall was also another point of criticism. Finally they really laugh and highlight the coffee cup, obviously this was a mistake but again didn’t really impact the overall episode quality.
By the way I’ve never been a huge fan of Thronecast but it’s been very good through S8 so far. Has a number of former actors on and gives honest feedback on the show whilst interpreting some of the foreshadowing as I seriously doubt they knew what was to come (at least in detail).
i feel you my brother………voted 1 for the exact same reason.
I don’t think it’s as much about not seeing it coming, but more about having difficulty accepting it. There is no doubt that part of the overblown criticism of season 8 stems from people’s theories & expectations not coming true. I mean, how can it not? People spend years obsessing over details and analyzing events and convince themselves that thing A, B & C will happen, and when they don’t, well then “it wasn’t properly set up” because obviously their analysis proved that the foreshadowing was stronger for A, B & C. There are certainly fans that are much more accepting that they’re wrong of course.
Dany is a tough one though, because many fans identify with her, and thought her story was going to be different, and they spent years defending her against fans that said she would go mad or turn out to be a villain in the end. I definitely feel for those fans. They hoped and were convinced that Dany would embrace her good side in the end. It’s a very tragic story really.. So it’s natural that many people will lash out against the writers in frustration and disappointment — they invested themselves in Dany and her story turned out to be their worst fear.
We can see this clearly by fans saying that in the books, Dany’s destruction of KL will likely be more of an accident than it was in the show. They desperately want her to be good and to conquer her dark impulses.
As I’ve said on several occasions, Dany’s turn worked for me. When she talked about burning cities to the ground, she didn’t stop to say “oh, except the women and children.” She knows what destroying a city means. She really epitomizes what George has said on many occasions, that “good people can do terrible things, and bad people can do heroic things” (paraphrasing).
Lastly, it is not unthinkable for people to make big leaps and do things you might not expect. Just look at the news and some of the mass shooters that have no prior record, and then suddenly go and kill 70 people. It’s very complex to understand stuff like this, but something snaps. Now of course, GoT is a story, so things have to be set up and there is storytelling to consider, but the seeds for her actions were all there. Tyrion even says in season 7 that he tempers her worst impulses.
Enharmony1625,
I’m now watching the “The Bells” I had mixed emotions at the time but my god it’s packed with tension and pay off. This is the moment the whole story built up too, the Mad Queen finally unveiled. A scared little girl who set out to do good became corrupted by power and genetics and the story pulls no punches in showing the sheer terror and brutality which unfolds.
Fully agree on Dany fandom though and I think this is the heart of the criticism S8 received, she was wrongly perceived by many as a hero, a strong female leader who would do right. Those same people just out right refused to believe this would be the outcome of the story and even tried to defend her actions.
I would rate this episode 9/10 and better than Blackwater and BotB and probably in the top 10-15 episodes of all time. My only criticism of this episode in hindsight is Euron turning up to a secret passage just as Jamie tires to walk in, just unnecessary.
Watching the season again six months after it’s aired and looking as objectively as possible the first five episodes work almost perfectly and it’s vintage GOT in my opinion. I’ll try to watch Thronecast for this next then the finale.
Jon Snowed,
The scenes on Dragonstone in the Bells are really well done. You feel something horrible will happen, that sense of inevitable tragedy is there.
And I think the last 3 episodes are really “human heart in conflict with itself”.
Daenerys’ downfall is probably the biggest tragedy in GoT, because since S1 whenever something bad happened we all thought that at one point Dany will come from the East and make the world better. That she will destroy evil Lannisters and makes things right.
And she comes and she destroys Lannisters and it’s a horror.
Jon Snowed,
It’s the most annoying thing when people harp on the coffee cup. It’s like the perfect example of making a mountain out of a molehill, or in this case a fucking anthill.
The coffee cup criticism is the single most annoying complaint. Even worse is when people still refer to it as a Starbucks cup 🤦♂️
I know a lot of people didn’t like that Jon didn’t pet Ghost at the time, but it’s obvious now they wanted to save it for the reunion in the finale.
Jack Bauer 24,
“Its Obvious…..?”Not sure where you get the obvious from, They were not ‘saving it’, they just put it in coz the animal lovers screamed loud enough. Its not a big deal and not something to get upset about, but I think they just didn’t think about it, at all. Nice they did tag it on afterwords tho
ash,
“Animal lovers screamed loud enough”? Where’d you even get that from? If they weren’t thinking about it at all they wouldn’t have bothered writing it.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but the irony of this statement is not lost on me.
ash,
So you thin they did that scene after E4?
Jack Bauer 24,
Although I am interested in your take – why do you suppose Jon didn’t pet Ghost there?
He could give Tormund a heartfelt goodbye hug, along with Sam and Gilly, but not Ghost… I wonder, would that have been too painful? Unlike the humans, Ghost couldn’t possibly understand why Jon was going away.
Farimer123,
I think it was to symbolize Jon’s identity crisis. Finding out he was a Targaryen made him feel like less of a Stark.
David Nutter explained why they skipped Ghost.
“Since the direwolves are kind of CG creations, we felt it best to keep it as simple as possible,” said Nutter. “And I think that it played out much more powerfully that way.”
“Keeping Ghost off to the side, I thought that played out better,” said Nutter, adding that it gave Jon a chance to be with Tormund and Gilly before having one last moment with his wolf.
“Then he just walks off by himself, he turns to Ghost and has this moment with Ghost that I thought was very, very powerful.”
I imagine that the creators were desperate to blab about the reunion in Episode 6, just to shut people up about it.
Jenny,
That was interview Nutter gave just after E4.
You can’t expect him to say – we did it that way so his reunion with Jon in the last scene of the show can be more powerful.
mau,
Well, no he can’t say that, I think it’s a mix of both, he couldn’t put in a big overwrought scene because he knew that they would be reunited in Episode 6. He wasn’t left with much to work with, and that’s how he decided to set up the shot, and give a nod to their relationship before Jon left. Basically there is no real story related reason, or he would have said so. It’s the same with Sam, he said his goodbye in Episode 4, so they skipped his goodbye in Episode 6, I thought that was kind of weird, but I understand why they didn’t want to have an episode full of people waving to Jon.
mau,
can’t prove it, just that they said it was too expensive to do it previous, and with the flack, did so. And I really do not have a dog in this fight – just that nothing is obvious, including my comment above.
oh and I am an animal lover, and I don’t think they were wrong. Just so you know
I honestly do think that some years from now, when all the dust settles and people go on to other things to occupy themselves with, Season 8 — and consequently the entirety of GoT’s legacy — will be viewed much more favorably.
I enjoyed Season 8 very much when it aired, though I did have some misgivings about certain aspects. Now, months later, I can only say I appreciate and enjoy it even more! After all is said and done, it was such a poignant and beautiful ending to the show I loved from the very first episode.
I am so saddened, I really am, by the unprecedented reaction the last season elicits to this very day. Almost every review, every little comment somewhere on them webz, is drowning not just in criticism, but in cynical snide vitriol the likes of which I have never seen hurled at any piece of television art ever. Do all these people really think Season 8 was so abominably disastrous? I simply can’t fathom it.
And yes, as I mentioned, certain aspects of the final season could have been done better. I thought the threat of the White Walkers should have been dealt with in a more thematically appropriate way, I still think the way Euron killed a dragon was silly, and I am not overly enamored with the middle part of the last episode: the whole “laying foundations for the future of Westeros” section should have been better presented, the way that it started with a rather underwhelming “Kingsmoot” and continued with a Small Council scene that was undercooked, a bit too pat, and didn’t say much of anything about what’s going to change in the way the realm’s being run. Actually, I think it may have been a good idea to split the final episode in two and have a true epilogue episode to cap off the series.
All that said, I can’t think of Season 8 as anything but a huge success. I was particularly impressed with almost all of the character beats, which, interestingly enough, is seemingly among the most reviled parts of the season. As far as I’m concerned, it was the perfect culmination of all these years of character growth (and regression, because people, like history, never go in a straight line).
Arya’s finally letting go of violence and vengeance, but accepting and embracing that she is a lone wolf after all, ready to forge her own path ahead.
Jon getting what he always yearned for, not ruling and fighting and struggling, but living with fellow outcasts on his own terms. I can imagine him spend his days with Tormund, Ghost and some girl kissed by fire… maybe not happy — he’s seen and done too much for that — but content. That has to be enough, right?
Sansa likewise where she was always meant to be: on the throne. She’s had to abandon her childlike fantasies of what it was to be a queen and endure more than probably any of the surviving characters. She isn’t a little bird anymore, but, to quote good ol’ King Robert, she’ll rule now and she’ll do it well. The North is in good hands.
Jaime and Cersei… for all the outcry how the show ruined two great characters, nothing’s further from the truth. They’ve been true to themselves to the very last moment. Cersei rotten to the core, Jaime always pulled in two opposite directions by forces beyond his control, never really his own man. We the audience wanted to believe in Jaime’s redemption — and in a way he succeeded, he was never the same man since he met Brienne — but in the end Jaime couldn’t break free of his twin’s malign influence. They came into this world together, they left it together. Many disliked how Cersei did next to nothing this season, just staring trough a window. To that I say: perfect ending. Ever since her children died, and then Jaime abandoned her, she became an avatar of everything wrong with insatiable desire to rule. In a way she stopped being human, just this unflinching force of evil, blind to all reason and devoid of normal emotion. It’s only in those last moments that she woke up, just in time to see her world crashing down — literally and figuratively — all around her. But then again, Jaime was there for her at the very end, so… almost beautiful, I suppose?
And then Daenerys. A cautionary tale about good intentions gone horribly wrong. You can’t break the wheel by simply willing it, by conquest, fire and blood, by remaking the world in your image, by not not having a plan for tomorrow. Better future is built the slow way, methodically, one could say boringly, one brick at a time. Saviors aren’t born, they aren’t made… they don’t exist is what the show tells us. We have to earn that better future with thoughts, words, and deeds ourselves.
Long live Game of Thrones. We shall never see its like again. Warts and all.
Those scenes were filmed longgg before they aired
Mr Fixit,
I think those people were obsessed with GoT, just like all of us were, but in a very unhealthy way. If you can be offended by writing in a show, you need help. And a lot of these people need some sort of help. They were invested in it in a very wrong way, they take flaws of the show almost as a personal attack. Like intention of Benioff and Weiss was to make them angry lol
The worst part of the fandom are ofc Dany stans because they feel like idiots now. For 20 years they attacked anyone who said that daenerys is tyrant and now they are blaming Benioff and Weiss for it, instead realizing how wrong they were. Vitriol comes mostly from these “liberal” places because they see downfall of female character as sexism.
Enharmony1625,
The thing is, first when season 8 aired I was all defending with: This will happen in the books how can people not see that.
But not anymore. You’re arguments about: Turning cities to the dust, doesn’t work on the books. She never state a single thing that suggest that in the books. Not in Qarth and not in Meereen. And she is already at the end of season 5 in the books. She never stated anything about turning cities to the dust like in the show. Maybe she will do that after she returns to Meereen, but until now she didn’t. In fact she states multiple times that she is becoming a monster like her dragons. In the show she never acknowledge her wrongdoings. In the books she reflects on it. I still think she will go ballistic in Essos in the books. But I’m not so convinced with how KL goes in the books. It’s not Cersei who pushed Dany like the show. Griff won’t kill Missandei or somebody who works for Dany. He wants to work with her and he will follow that path. George also stated that the Dance of dragon will be in his books, and it will contrain 3 dragonriders with one dragonrider not a Targaryen. This is heavily forshadowed to be Euron. Why would there be 2 people who are going to destroy KL. Or is Euron going to defend KL in the books, and working with Griff? I don’t think so.
As for when does the Dance of Dragon v2 happen in the books. Euron is already attacking Oldtown. He is preparing. The moment Dany sets foot on Westeros I think we can expect him to get his hands on one of the dragons, and Dance of Dragon and the massacre of KL will happen when Dany lands on Westeros. (which I suspect won’t be Dragonstone, because if you look at the map of Planetos, Dany needs to sail past Dorne who is working with Aegon. How does Dany look at Doran working with Aegon? Will she just sail past it? And past Storms End without attacking that first? And why wouldn’t she take the strongest castle as her base? She will deal first with the enemy south before going north. And here is the problem with that. If she really want to dethrone Aegon, she will take KL by force directly (Tyrion of the books won’t hold her back he is very vindictive of everyone who wronged him), and once she sits on that throne she won’t leave and leave her capitol undefended while she goes to help the north. And that also mean that she will sit on the throne which she won’t. So that leaves a problem there storywise if they want to follow the show version of her first going north and then south. The massacre of KL will happen before the WW treat. So why would Jon help Dany if she burned KL to the ground? Why would he fall in love with her?
For the books the structure that season 7 and 8 had doesn’t make sense. Especially with the addition of Euron with the Dance of Dragons v2 as a dragonrider. (Martin stated that DoD version 2 will have 3 dragonriders but that doesn’t mean that it will be 3 Targaryens riding the dragons). So we know that it will contain 3 dragonriders, and we know it is about the Iron Throne because it’s named Dance of Dragon, which was a war for the Iron Throne.
And with Dany vs YG there is only 2 options: 1. Destroy YG or 2. She will work with YG, and with working it means trusting each other, meaning Dany embrace him as an ally and that means that when she return after the War against the death that she doesn’t see YG as the enemy. A truce like the show doesn’t make sense, because YG is not Cersei, who will go back on his promise like she did.
And also people tend to forget
Another thing is, GRRM words about the structure of the books: Westeros face 3 evils. The first is the War of 5 kings. Then comes the invasion from the East, and last where the story ends the invasion from the North. That is his structure which he still states will be his structure. He even admitted that what DoD is, was suppose to be his second book.
And I say this as somebody who ranks Dany’s storyline below the rest in the books. And I don’t care how she will end up in the end. For my part she will be patchface v2 in the end in the books. And I won’t care if she will indeed go full dark or mad in the books. I really don’t care. But for the books it seems unlikely that the events play out like the show. And people need to remember George’s words about the ending: Will the ending be the same as the show? Yes but no but yes but no but yes but no. He wasn’t talking about the journey beforehand he was talking about the real ending of the characters.
As for my rewatch I just watched 3×09 and I have too say I really enjoyed every single episode till now. I only skipped 2 things: The nudity and Theon’s torture scenes. Theon storyline I will watch again after season 4.
Mr Fixit,
Also another problem is how deeply wrong interpretation of the story was by a lot of people. Jaime will be redeemed, Dany will not turn dark, purpose of R+L=J is to make Jon king, and so on.
They really thought that a story that has anti-war message will end with war- mongering incest queen re-establishing her incest dynasty. The story about human heart in conflict with itself will end with the war against ice demons and that the story will turn some of characters into Chosen One trope? That it will use secret prince trope to put Jon on the throne? The same story that killed main character in the first season?
People don’t take well when they are wong. And they were wrong about almost everything. So insted of saying – let’s see what the story wanted to say, even if I don’t like it or don’t think it was done well, they went with the story was wrong and our interpretation was right.
Yeah exactly. I think it was too painful for Jon at that point. That’s why he was so happy to see Ghost again in 806.
This doesn’t make any sense. You talk as though Episode 6 was written and filmed after Episode 4 had been broadcast. There’s no way that the content of E6 could be a reaction to criticism of E4.
Mr Fixit,
Slow clap. Well put.
kevin1989,
That’s true about Dany’s lines of destroying cities and turning them to dust — they’re not in the books. But they’re in the show, and they properly foreshadow her burning of KL, so it works for the show. And yes of course there will be differences in the books. Maybe some major ones even. I’m not a book expert by any means as I only read them once over three years ago, so I can’t really speak too much about my personal views on how exactly Dany’s story will differ. So for me, I’m just going to wait and see.. 🙂
Agree with you on Dany, I was a big fan of hers in the early seasons but started to believe she would be the end villain back around S4. Objectively looking back it’s brilliantly done, it highlights that power corrupts and even those who start off fundamentally good can be turned. I challenge anyone to go back and objectively assess if this is some sort of heal turn because it’s not, there is a lot of foreshadowing and it’s set up well in S8 that many people saw it (see thronecast). The sad thing is that this is a big reason people criticise S8 and we had silly petitions and please deliberately bombing IMDb ratings.
Absolutely agree with you and you’ve written it extremely well. The over the top criticism and trolling ruined it for many but if you go back and watch objectively it’s actually really good and nowhere near the worst season of GOT. I would rate it well above seasons 2, 5 and 7, and alongside seasons 1&3.
I challenge anyone to go back and watch it now the dust has settled and I suspect you will love it a lot more.
Fully agree it’s the Damy hardcore fans (although not all of them) that largely hate S8 and its because they failed to see Dany for who she truly was. What we then got was silly nonsense about sexism and D&D rather than self reflection and acceptance.
I recognise and respect we have different views on Young Griff Kevin but I am gobsmacked that you think Dany won’t be The ultimate villain in the books too. I am sure it will play out slightly differently but at this point I would stake my house that she will and Jon will need to kill her due to her actions.
kevin1989,
Kevin you have some really interesting ideas in there. I hadn’t thought about the possibility of a truce with YG, but I think you’re right. She’ll forge a truce to go North. The thing is that she’ll never be queen, she’ll die before that, so she can’t wipe out KL before fighting in the North; so she’ll go North and then turn South to deal with the others there.
And JC appears in her prophecies, in the part that relates to her romantic life. Question for you: why do you think JC will approach her, and why is he in the romantic prophecies? What does that mean?
And another one (perhaps you’ve talked about it before, sorry if I make you repeat): why do you think Euron will be the third dragon rider? I remeber I was perplexed with what he was doing, I couldn’t imagine where it’d go (and I’m not going back to his chapters, I hate him); he wanted a queen (Daenerys), but he strayed by attacking the Reach and in the meantime Victarion is already in Slavers Bay and her that big horn with him.
Also, a note: DS is just outside the Blackwater Bay. It’s a base close to KL. If Daenerys wants KL, she’ll land there. Storms End and Dorne are to the South.
Enharmony1625,
I agree about the show. Dany’s turn was heavily foreshadowed there. But even in the books Dany is at fault for the destruction of KL even if it’s by byproduct. Her dragons will do the deed, and she hatch them.
Jon Snowed,
That petition is just stupid. And that rating-bombing was also annoying. I think if that didn’t happen. GoT maybe still would have rated the lowest, but it would still be above 8,0 every episode.
Jon Snowed,
Dany won’t be the villain in the books, she will be dark yes, but not the villain. It’s is known, oh oh oh. When Dany lands, the dance of dragon version 2 will directly play out. Young Griff vs Dany vs Euron (Which is half confirmed by GRRM that Euron will be a dragonrider). Why would the battle of KL have 2 villains Euron and Dany?
We know already for a fact that the battle of KL will happen before the War against the death. Especially when you think about that Euron will be a part of the dance of dragon’s part 2. But we also know that Dany won’t sit on the throne, that means that she will need to lose the battle of KL or she will stand aside her throne. Even at the end of DoD she longed for home, she didn’t think of it for a long time and once again that is on her mind, but when she thinks back, she is lost.
The War against the death is the ultimate end for the books. And I’m 100% certain that Nissa Nissa will come into play. The talk about lightbringer and that the biggest love of Azor Ahai needs to be sacrificed willingly is talk too many times in the books, by too many characters. (And don’t forget Aemon’s book that he gave Jon at the end of Dance). Even GRRM admitted that he will answer those prophecies in the books and they will come into play. Dany will be Nissa Nissa. They fall in love Jon and Dany. And it ends with the sacrafice, that’s what George told D&D I think, Dany is responsible for the burning of KL, and Jon kills her. (The yes no yes no). Jon will forge lightbringer (dawn) and will be the Prince that was Promised. And it ends with the defeat (but not the end) of the WW invasion. Jon will choose to be at the north, to protect the realm for when the WW return.
And I’m certain Dany won’t be a villain in the books (even when I won’t care if she will become, I like that the show did it and half year ago I was certain this is how the books will go), but not anymore. And I’m 99,999% certain of this that Dany won’t be the villain and she dies by Jon hand for the Nissa Nissa prophecy. And I dare to put everything I own to bet on that.
But we need to wait till winds is out to see which is right. I think winds will give us a nice idea where it’s heading in the end.
Efi,
I think the battle of KL happens before the battle of the dawn. I’m 100% certain Dany dies as Nissa Nissa and when the WW are defeated she will be death. So that means KL will happen before.
But if KL happen before Dany can’t win that battle, else she won’t go north. And she won’t go north as a villain.
Also for Jon and Dany romance to happen the battle of KL need to happen before. There is no time in the books for getting Dany to the north. Especially with YG on the throne that Jon doesn’t have a problem with, he would go to YG first before going to Dany, especially when Dany hasn’t landed yet but YG has. With Cersei he had a problem with YG not. Another thing is the timeline. I expect the wall to fall at the end of Winds. How are we going to have the whole. Essos part,battle of fire, Dany going West. Jon going south convince Dany and YG and going back north etc need to happen in just one book. Even when Jon is death, needs to go back to life, going to WF going south to Dany convince her and going north. That’s too much for one book. I expect that Dany will go north on her own account with the help of Marwyn, who is going to convince Dany to fight the northern cause. But even with this is Nissa Nissa will happen, Dany dies in the north.
Why I think Euron will be one of the 3 dragon riders. 1. GRRM said that Euron will be important for the endgame. 2. He is at Oldtown which contains hidden information about the destruction of dragons, the binding of dragons with spells and other things. Combine that with Damphair’s vision about Euron having a woman in chains (which I suspect is either Dany or Victorion). 3. GRRM admitted that at least one dragonrider in the Dance of Dragon version 2 will be a non-Targaryen.
And if Euron storyline is already so far progressed in his first winds chapter. And Dany still in Essos. And look at the map of Essos and Westeros to go to Westeros from Essos one needs to sail passed Dorne a nice place for Doran to ambush Dany and take one of her dragons through magic. But I wonder how that will come into play.
I think Dany lands in Dorne but I’m not certain about this. Dragonstone also feels right.
As for the JC romance part, I really need to look into this. The thing that I think of directly is something I won’t like I think. That is that Dany and YG are becoming a couple instead of Dany and Jon, and I rather have Jon forfill that part. Maybe JC will be the reason why Dany will go north and meet with Jon.
Oh and I forget don’t forget what GRRM told about Dany and Tyrion’s meeting in the books. That it will happen almost at the end of he book. That means I don’t expect Dany will land in Westeros at the end of Winds. But I expect the wall to fall.
https://ew.com/article/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/
“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.”
And I think Stannis will survive against the Bolton’s and he is the key to the dragonglass to be given to Jon.
I expect Young Griff will be successful where Dany isn’t, which may ultimately lead to the destruction of KL (“A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire”) in its conquest the way Linda Antonsson proposed. I also think the Others won’t be a done-and-done issue when the series ends and will be a lingering thing.
But I think the books have a freedom where the show doesn’t and can allow for more time in one installment, a book isn’t limited the way a TV series is.
What about Sam maybe trying to find Dany himself if Marwyn fails? Maester Aemon told Sam that Daenerys must be found and she is their last hope. While Marwyn has said he will find Daenerys, he also told Sam he didn’t put much trust in prophecies or Aemon’s words.
I wonder how much confidence Sam has in Marwyn to do what he says he’ll do — Marwyn insinuates it was the Citadel that made all of the dragons disappear, not dragonslayers, since the world the Citadel is building “has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.” This is why Marwyn says Aemon was sent to the Wall (though Aemon says he chose the Wall so he wasn’t used against his brother’s claim), because of Aemon’s Targaryen blood.
Marwyn also distrusts Aemon and warns Sam that he [Marwyn] is not to be trusted either. However, Sam has a deep regard for Aemon, has fought off a wight himself (and he is more familiar with the immediacy of this threat having encountered part of it first-hand), and the chapter ends with Sam feeling uneasy about where he is, finding Marwyn unsettling, as well as the boy setting him up in his chambers (“There was something about the pale, soft youth that he misliked, but he did not want to seem discourteous,”)
Sam has taken matters into his own hands before (getting contenders for LC to drop out so Jon becomes LC), what if this is something he takes into his own hands too?
kevin1989,
Speaking of maesters, you might also be interested in this AltShiftX video, Kevin! It explores something called the Grand Maester Conspiracy 🙂
Adrianacandle,
I like you’re idea of Marwyn. And about “From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire” I think this is more something of Oldtown, the hightower there, it’s one of the towers with the black oil. And I think that stone beast breathing shadow fire is Euron. Dany sees a beast not a dragon. Another thing I could think of is that it’s the shadow tower. There was reports that something is happening at the Gorge.
I will look up that video once I finished season 3 of GoT. Would be a nice watch when I read SoS ending. (I will skip Jon becoming LC I think till I read his Dance chapters.)
kevin1989,
I think you’d like it! It poses some interesting ideas about the decline of dragons, why that may have happened, what the maesters had to do with it, why they’re against rulers with Targaryen blood. AltShiftX also goes over the theory that it was the maesters who were behind the first Dance of the Dragons and Robert’s Rebellion, “The wars that killed the dragons and overthrew the Targaryens.”
Yet, as AltShiftX points out, there’s no hard evidence.
Okay, that’s intriguing. I never thought to make the distinction between “beast” and “dragon” but I suppose there is something to the idea that Dany may have specified a dragon if it were a dragon. Or it may be for the sake of not overusing the word “dragon” so soon after “cloth dragon.”
In her HotU vision, I tend to link each grouped set of two visions to the grouped set of italics following them (eg. “cloth dragon”, “blue eyed king,” linked to its following italics “slayer of lies”, “great stone beast”)
What kind of beast do you think it is that has wings and breathes shadow fire? Magic? Admittedly, I’m still leaning toward it being a dragon and I think this foresees the destruction of KL but please tell me more about what you think it may be 🙂
Adrianacandle,
I will look forward to it.
About the shadowfire, it depends do we need to look at this like it’s really happening or will it be a metaphor like many parts of Dany’s visions in the HotU. Some ideas I read about that I like:
– It’s Jon C. He is the stone beast (Griffin with greyscale) that breaths (speaks) shadow fire (Aegon’s claim), but I wonder what that smoky tower could refer to.
– Euron if it’s literal. He is into some dark shit. And old town has the high tower. Maybe he will do to Vyserion what the NK did in the show. Turn him into something else.
– It’s Jon snow. The smoking tower is the King’s Tower. The stone beast is him (He is half dragon half wolf) and the shadow fire is his claim. (I like it but I doubt it)
– Shireen. Val already stated that the greyscale will return. What if it will return and she will infect others at the wall. Smoking tower could refer to the tower she stays in in CB and maybe Mel will burn that tower down with Shireen in it. (Greyscale seem by many the most logical when it comes to stone beast)
– Tyrion Lannister. Breathing shadow fire = telling lies. But I can’t see which tower it could refer too.
– Some think it’s Littlefinger. Burning tower = The Eyrie, breathing shadow fire = telling lies.
– The Sphinx. smoking tower = high tower of oldtown. Breathing shadow fire = using of the glass candle. It has shadow fire and it’s stalled in the high tower which is always burning.
– Tower of Joy. Stone beast = Jon. Breathing shadow fire = the lie that is been told about his heritage.
Personally I think it’s more metaphorical than literal.
EDIT: About Euron. Many theories suggest Euron will unleash some hell on Planetos. That he is busy with that. Using his dark magic. Maybe the stone beast is a creation of his.
kevin1989,
Those are some interesting theories and thanks for sharing 🙂 Aside from the destruction of KL, I can see it referring to the Euron one because — as you said — he is into some dark sh!t. Yet, since it falls within the same set as “cloth dragon,” my inkling is that it’s about the destruction of KL (though I agree with your assessment of Dany there, I don’t think it will be so out-and-out villainous as it was on the show) since I think that is a thing that would be in her visions (like the show’s version of HoTU had the throne room covered in ash/snow). But I could be wrong.
Adrianacandle,
I also like the theory that Dany herself is the Cloth Dragon. But I need to look that up.
kevin1989,
I did really like that Evil Tree theory — that was a fun and creepy one 🙂 I’d definitely watch a horror movie about that.
kevin1989,
To go on a super nerdy aside, I think I’d want to suggest such an idea like the Evil Tree theory to my Dungeon Master for our Dungeons & Dragons game — party vs. tree combat. There are evil looking tree minis!
But the idea that these trees talk to each other through their roots, contain the dead and feed on blood… I mean… It makes me look at real trees a bit differently even 😉
Adrianacandle,
As long as they are not white and having a face it’s all good.
But it also make sense for asoiaf. GRRM liked LotR alot and take a lot from lotR. Like LotR he has trees with faces.
But what he does is he is doing the exact opposite with what LotR does. He shows he is against monarchy instead of a huge fighter for monarchy (something that Tolkien was). Tolkien also had a very black and white view on good vs evil. And he also didn’t believe in character Development. Tolkien believed that people won’t change because of things happening in their lives. They are just merely broken and can be fixed and they are the same as before. GRRM has a more modern look at things. Things that people lived effect them for ever. people develop as a person because of it. Somebody good can turn evil and visa versa.
So it’s not really strange to think about it that GRRM maybe put another thing of Tolkien upon it’s head. That nature is always good. Nature can be evil as well, or as we humans perceive evil. And where LotR goes with that nature helps the humans fight the evil Sauron. Maybe GRRM goes with Humans fight together with dangerous animals (dragons) to fight nature (WW, Weirwoods, Krakens etc)
kevin1989,
I agree! In May 2018, another commentor on this site, Wimsey, taught me a lot about Tolkien’s views.
I think part of these differences are due to Tolkien and GRRM coming from very different times. I believe Tolkien wrote (or started to write) LoTR during WWI and when I found that out, some of the passages in his books are downright haunting — like the bogs with all the dead faces in them. And yeah! GRRM is exploring some of the archetypes present in Tolkien’s work, like what the real-world struggles, impacts, consequences, and successes would be if these were elements in our world.
Anyway, I agree about the Ents. And I think they might have some connection to the Children of the Forest? They’re both ancient, ancient races. The Ents are shepherds of the forest who wish to protect it from outside forces (like orcs). The Children of the Forest disliked the humans’ (First Men) impact on the trees. But the Ents seem pretty much on the up-and-up and we’re not so sure about the Children.
Adrianacandle,
I don’t trust the children. Like Bran said. Humans would be wroth. And GRRM is not writing a race that’s 100% good. That’s not GRRM. The Children will hold a grudge. And more the trees, they were cut.
And GRRM is also a big fan of Lovecraft. What people tend to forget is that the books are not only fantasy and drama, but also high on horror.
kevin1989,
Yes, there is definitely quite a bit of horror involved.
And I hope we get to see what the Children are really up to.
mau,
“And I can’t find leaked outline for S7 anymore, but some of the scenes from S7 were moved to S8. Bronn’s scene from 801 and Missandei and Grey Worm’s scene from 802. I even think that Bronn scene was actually shot for S7 but it was cut and moved to 801.”
Mau, ask and ye shall receive: https://dadae0ea-7d63-4891-8399-b8187b964227.filesusr.com/ugd/c4e5f9_04c95e6c88564a788b73f97934fa039e.pdf
Absolutely! Mr Fixit summarised it exceptionally well.
Enharmony1625 , good to see you. I feel the seeds of Dany’s (and all MAIN character’s actions and fates in Series 8) were planted and watered in the first series, in some cases the first two episodes. Except maybe Bran’s. Hapless Dany was pushed–or fell–over the edge because of cumulative circumstances and then the almost simultaneous loss of the people who had reinforced her for years. It would be logical for the books to have her end similarly, if for no other reason than D&D almost surely would not have devised such critical a development for their main heroine if GRRM had already intended a different one.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
This is incredible. love looking at this stuff. Did you happen to find the season 8 outline as well by any chance?
kevin1989,
“That it will happen almost at the end of he book”
“Much of the book” doesn’t mean at the end, Kevin. It’s more like the middle of it. By the end of the book Dany needs to be on her way home.
Agree, logically if the books are to be concluded with just Winds and ADOS then Dany probably needs to end Winds of Winter arriving at Dragonstone. I suspect she’ll meet with Tyrion once the dust settles after the battle in Essos.