Emilia Clarke continues her media whirlwind adventure to promote Last Christmas (a truly delightful holiday romcom, if I do say so myself).
Most recently, she was invited onto BBC Radio 1 to chat with Ali Plumb and Greg James about everything from toilet paper preferences to Christmas carols to, of course … Game of Thrones!
On “Movies with Ali Plumb,” Clarke shared some of her fond and funny Game of Thrones memories, like how Peter Dinklage was the best swearer in the cast or how she asked too politely to take home a memento from set (“P-p-p-p-please sir, can I take a wig? Seeing as there’s eight and I played the role for ten years?) and thus never received any.
When asked which one of Daenerys’ lines she’ll never, ever forget she answered, “I’m a Khaleesi, not a queen” but then also suggested ‘We’ll break the wheel togeth-” and then stuck out her tongue and pantomimed being stabbed.
She also discussed her various fan encounters, some of which she described as positive experiences, others … not so much.
“The worst one I got recently – and it really hurt, like it genuinely cut me up a little bit – [was at] the supermarket the day after episode 5 had aired of the last season when Daenerys had just gone out, all out … had a moment” she said. “This woman turned to me and went, ‘I don’t know how you can show your face around here.’ And I literally went *pained gasp* ‘I just need to get some milk.’ It was heartbreaking”
She also appeared on “Unpopular Opinions” to help Greg James assess callers’ (what else?) unpopular opinions, which led to in-depth discussion of the merits of quilted toilet paper, Christmas cards and sleeping in separate duvets.
When it came time for Clarke to offer an unpopular opinion of her own she confessed that she hates the Christmas song “Fairytale of New York” and “would rather never hear that song again in [her] life.”
Game of Thrones came up when a caller named Dan insisted that “the last season of Game of Thrones wasn’t that bad.”
Both Clarke and James, who had clearly been expecting a different take on season 8 from Dan, reacted with enormous relief and appreciation.
“Ayyyyy! You can stay!” Clarke said. “That was about to kill me. I was about to be like, ‘do you need me to kick off? … Dan, thank you! God love you, Dan!”
She’s technically right. Actors did their damndest with what they got, music/direction/costumes were on point.
Writing, on the other hand, would’ve benefited greatly from splitting the seasons with S8 being the previously prescribed six episodes ending at Winterfell and a hypothetical S9 revolving around King’s Landing and a proper build to Mad Queen Dany.
Whatever people may think of the writing in Season 8 or the way it ended – that’s no excuse to publicly insult an actor/actress that was just doing their job. Sadly some people can’t seem to separate a character’s actions from the actress..it wasn’t ‘Emilia Clarke’ that burned innocents, it was a ‘fictional character’ in a ‘fictional world’. I’m assuming that is what that rude person was inferring by her comment. How frightening encounters like that must be for them.
The writing Emilia Clarke and the other actors received was nominated for an Emmy, so “what they got” was more than most actors and actresses.
I continue my belief that anyone who doesn’t adore this woman must be viewed with the utmost suspicion.
And what about coffee cup?
Marbery Typhoon,
I actually thought they did a good job with the build up.
Thats not exactly defending but sure. Love Emilia Clarke.
Pigeon,
They don’t exist surely? Well, except for that woman in the supermarket, wtf was that about?
So far, there is no word on whether the coffee cup liked the final season or not.
Emilia, you knew what ep. 5 contained. You should have taken the supplies earlier and lock yourself up for about a month or so until the audience got used to the idea. 😂
Mr Derp,
I hope we will find our who put that cup. That’s what we all really care about. Sad that Emilia kinda forgot about it.
Pigeon,
That’ll be me then! Talking about unpopular opinions! I find her really overpowering. Her manner always seems so exaggerated and over-the-top. Sorry.
Seven hells, how can somebody be that daft. People like that scare the living shit out of me, they can’t seem to differentiate fiction from reality. And I try to phantom how somebody like that could follow a show like GoT.
I feel sorry for her. Emilia was amazing in season 8.
Thanks for the good laugh.
Grandmaester Flash,
Suspicion intensified.
Emilia identifies too much with Daenerys for her own good. Some of her stories are really embarrassing. How she cried to her mother that people will hate her and how she was afraid Beyonce won’t like her anymore lol
Like girl, you just played the most iconic tragic female hero in history of pop culture. You are female Anakin. Enjoy in that. Own it. You are a dragon. Be a dragon.
LOL. She’s just too full on for me. She’d do my head in.
Grandmaester Flash,
Luckily for her, you have no chance in getting near her or date her.
Pigeon,
Jenny,
Yes! To that end, I really love this show’s whole cast.
And I love that she loves Friends. It makes me love Friends even more 😉
(When she was talking about Monica’s humidity hair, I sadly knew the exact look…)
Adrianacandle,
It’s funny because if I never heard of Friends or Beyonce again it’d still be too soon, but I love E’s enthusiasm about just about anything. It never seems false to me, she just seems like a genuine sparkplug. 😊
Pigeon,
Absolutely! 💖
Damn, what a class-A piece of shit that lady was!
Right? I’m kind of glad that I don’t understand people like that. Perhaps because I learned the difference between an actor and the character they play when I was about 5. 😜 (Let me tell ya – finding out than Indiana Jones and Han Solo were played by THE SAME PERSON was quite the revelation!) 😆
“Ayyyyy! You can stay!” Clarke said. “That was about to kill me. I was about to be like, ‘do you need me to kick off? … Dan, thank you! God love you, Dan!”
She’s straight-up cheerleading the guy who liked S8, and implying she was gonna argue with him if he started insulting the show (the “kick off”).
Kind of misleading title, I was expecting her to actually defend S8 lol
Also here is an interview of Daniel Portman in which he actually points out some of the flaws in S8, surprised WOTW haven’t posted about it yet.
https://twitter.com/WesterosSA/status/1195359328171102208?s=20
Since I’m no longer to edit:
I’m not trying to come across as confrontational, just noting that nothing in this “Unpopular Opinion” interview actually points towards her defending S8. Just seems more relieved that someone doesn’t hate the last season.
I actually do think some of her other quotes put up more of a defense of S8, such as the ones where she points out that no ending could have possibly pleased everyone.
mau,
It’s not really the same, people weren’t starting petitions about Anakin’s turn to the dark side (people were mad about other things). We already knew it was coming, it was only a matter of how the iconic villain became the iconic villain that everyone loved. This was a big shock to some people, the fact that Emilia herself didn’t know is incredible. They should have told her years ago, is she so untrustworthy with a secret?
She knew people would be upset, almost as upset as she was, which is why she called her mum. Dany is incredibly important to some people, Emilia she says that Dany saved her life, it’s no wonder that she feels so strongly about her. Not everyone can be like no f*cks given Nikolaj.
I think Emilia’s responses fan the flames a little bit, people are still upset, and they aren’t going to get over it while the actress who plays her is still openly sad about the whole thing.
Jay Targ,
“The Fans deserved more”. Yeah, the same “fans” who offended D&D and the show since season 5. This pile of shit of a fandom deserved nothing.
“The fans would have been happier if they had taken more time”. No they would not, because their main issue is what happened and not the pacing.
I think Daniel only told the interviewer what he wanted to hear.
I guess. Lol that’s what Daniel Portman thinks, so 🤷♂️
The show has never given people what they want so I don’t buy that at all. I think had they delivered these plot points in a convincing manner and in a way that felt earned people would have gone along with it. I think D&D were always seeking Red Wedding type shock that it was sometimes detrimental to their writing.
The Light King,
Oh my gosh. I can’t believe someone can live in such delusion, just like you do.
Daniel told the interviewer what he wanted to hear? Like, what the hell. How did you get to that point? What’s there to support your claim? Is it just an echo chamber? D&D did a terrible thing with season 8. Anyone who has at least some honesty and a little bit higher standards than an average viewer would know that the last season was something between average and trash.
D&D were offended. So what? I didn’t offend them. I hate last season. Maybe Podrick’s actor was talking about people like me?
This entire site is massively biased, which is absolutely sad, because there are lots of forums of other series/ movies/ games, and none of what I have seen does not suffer from a harder confirmation bias than that one. The fact they conciously dodge the interviews in which actors say they didn’t like what season 8 was about, OR when they pulled reviews just after the end of the series, they ommited these which were critical at least. There is no way you can have substantial discussion here because people who spit on those, who offended D&D, behave EXACTLY the same way towards those who have a different, much more critical opinion.
Season 8 was a nightmare. Peace.
Jay Targ,
Have you actually seen the complaints online? People wanted the White Walkers to be the final threat, they wanted Jon to be King, they wanted Jon to have a 1vs1 against the Night King and kill him, they wanted Daenerys to be Queen, they wanted her and Jon to get married, they wanted Arya to kill Cercei, they wanted Jaime to stay with with Brienne, they wanted a fianl season that has nothing to do with the theme of Game of Thrones.
Instead they got a final season that did not meet their expectations and wishes and that’s why they hate it. Thats a fact!
Complaints like “it was rushed” is just an addition so People like me who liked S8 can not say that they find the season just bad because it didnt go their way. You can tell that by the fact that people are only searching for “errors” and attach something negative to everything, so they have some justification for their hate.
I feel for Emilia she seems such a lovely person, very down to earth and approachable too. You can tell she loved playing Dany and was sad to realise she was to become the villain.
The caller is right though having just watched S8 for the first time since the spring it’s certainly not bad, it’s actually one of the stronger seasons.
I don’t think that E. is “defending” GOT, but it’s logical that she’d do that if it came to it. Of course after 10 years she’s emotionally attached to it, she went from being nobody to being famous and participating in some very important blockbuster films and she owes that to GOT and Daenerys; and the fact that she’s had to deal with one of the most serious health issues at such a young age and come out a winner from that situation of course makes her even more emotional about it. I don’t think that she’s “defending” Daenerys as a whole, just the show role that was significantly different from the book character. It’s like she’s defending the last minute turn of show!Daenerys. She took part in sth that was artistically perfect (apart from the script and story that had flaws) and lasted a full 10 years and it’s resonable that she loves it.
That said, the ending would have been better accepted by the audience if they hadn’t kept it a closely-guarded secret, if they had shown signs of what Daenerys could do. It was a marketing decision to make her “the hero” for three seasons (5-7) and build seasons 7-8 around the “big romance”. And they did that with the purpose to mislead the audience into believing it.
[none of my friends wanted to believe it when I told them what would happen already in season 7-I received some goggle eyes already and after it ended nobody wants to talk about it, it’s as if they’ve deleted it from their minds, lol]
This is at least part of why the ending fell flat –bad writing and absense of a true plot in s8 was the other imo. They did exactly what Martin has said the producers shouldn’t do, made it all about Jon-Dany (they even stated it) and thereby lost a big part of the story. Granted, a fuller story surely wouldn’t change the audience’s mind about the ending and there’d still be people who wouldn’t like it, but there’s a chance that it would be more satisfying. Even when our beloved heroes fall in the end, we know it when we see sth good.
It was Conleth Hill who put it there, Emilia confirmed it recently.
Jenny,
Still all of it is absurd.
Jay Targ,
Sure. The execution was the problem. That’s why “fandom” lost mind with leaks before they even saw execution.
As a straight woman, I have no interest in dating her, thank you!
The supermarket incident is very typical for daytime soap actors. They become such a part of people’s lives that people think they are those characters. It’s no excuse at all. It’s really awful they wouldn’t say something like “I hate what you’re character did” instead of saying “how can you show your face here”. I would hear my mom talk about someone’s surgery on the phone and then I would realize she was talking about General Hospital (daytime soap).
It’s hard for me to continue to comment on season 8. I thought I would do something different and reflect about the season in what images are burned in my memory from each episode. I’m hoping my wife gets me the new GOT photo book for the holidays and some of these images are in there…
Ep 1: Jon and Arya Hug (OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Ep 2: Brienne’s smile after being knighted. (forever in my memory)
(The montage at the end……Sansa sipping soup with Theon. Arya’s cold look thinking about death in bed after sleeping with Gendry)
Ep 3: (lots and lots…. Here’s the ones that come to mind first:
John Bradley’s hands in the opening shot.. I see that shot alot.
Arya doing the knife drop on the Night King
Jon yelling at the dragon (It was stupid, but I remember it!!!)
Ghost disappearing in the darkness
The dothraki’s flames all disappearing
Jaime and Brienne fighting back to back
Jorah protecting Dany
Davos looking at Arya after her awesome fight on the battlements
Arya against one of the walls with her bloody forehead
Beric Dondarrion in his Christ pose holding back the wights.
(just so many in this episode!!! I could keep going but those are the first that came to mind)
Ep 4: Dany with Jorah at the funeral, Sansa with Theon, and Arya with Beric
Ep 5:
Jon’s look as Greyworm attacks the surrendered Lannisters
Dany on top of drogon with her decision to go nuts and burn them all
Ten Bear’s favorite with Sandor holding the back of Arya’s head telling her to choose life.
Arya’s ash and blood covered face as the ashes rain down on her.
Arya and the pale mare
The mother and child getting incinerated
Arya almost getting trampled to death
(just so many again..these were the first that came to mind)
Episode 6:
Arya appearing out of nowhere next to Jon on the steps
Drogon covered with snow
Drogon flying off with Dany
Jon’s brief smile as he rode beyond the wall
Jon’s return to his painful smile as he rode beyond the wall…
(again, I have lots of pictures in my mind from this final episode…I didn’t say Dany’s stab shot… I do see Jon holding Dany as one of them though and all of the iron throne and drogon shots when drogon turns away from jon and melts the iron throne instead)
It was really a great visual masterpiece of a season. No matter what you say about the story and how we got there, there were so many amazing moments in season 8. I will remember the seasons for these moments and I hope the pain fans felt will fade with time a bit. I can appreciate the accomplishments of the season, and there were many.
mau,
Well, Ok then lol. I’m exercising empathy here! I didn’t even like Dany until she had one loss after another in S8, that and the worst advisors on the planet. She didn’t stand a chance. I understand her significance, but it’s dangerous to put characters on a pedestal in an unfinished story, particularly one like this. I still think about parents calling their kids Khaleesi sometimes, I was alarmed at the time, like, has nobody told you? So awkward.
Grandmaester Flash,
Was not serious of course XD
The Light King,
Don’t get me wrong. I personally can’t stand the overly negative about season 8. Especially the petition and the imdb bombing with multiple accounts.
But back when GoT was in it’s first season, and only 1×01 had aired, the ones that watch that show at that moment were the books fans (which I was not part of I read the books between season 1 and 2), they told their friends and they started to watch the show from the beginning. Season 1 had a small fan base. I call them “Fans from the Beginning” or “FftB”. They expended the fanbase of the show every season by getting more and more fans to watch the show and it became the biggest show of the last decade. I call the new fans “NF”. Now what happened is that in season 5 the priority of D&D became to please the “NF” instead of the “FftB”. They even admitted it that they needed to worry about a bigger audience.
So I can understand you are a fan from the beginning, made the show big by getting more fans to watch the show and then the priority changed to the new fans instead of the fans that were there from 1×01. Those are the fans that are mostly angry, the fans that were heavily involved since the fist episode and first season. So saying that those fans don’t matter is not something I agree, they made it that the show got more fans and as popular as it is, they should be the focus when making the show, not the ones that started watching when the show was already in it’s 3rd or 4th season.
But said that, I have to say that some criticism of season 8 is highly overreacted. Luckily on WotW that’s not the case and most share a more nuance form of criticism.
There are many things the fandom wanted and didn’t get. The fandom wanted Ned Stark to win, they wanted Robb to win, they wanted Oberyn to win, and people continued to love the show. So idk how you can claim that the show not giving fans what they want is the reason why the fandom (in general) hates it. I think there are very valid reasons for why are down on S8 as whole that go beyond “not getting what they want”.
Oh come on Mau, you’ve been in this fandom far too long to know that the fandom loses their mind with any sort of leaks. The fandom lost it’s mind when the entirety of Season 7 leaked, just go back and read some of the comments. Yet in S7 some things were executed well and other things were awfully executed (Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger storyline). Unfortunately in S8, for the online fandom, the latter was mostly the case.
Sandor,
I hope you dream every night about season 8 <3
Jay Targ,
How do I get that? Open your eyes. I had so many discussions with people who hate Season 8., because they didnt get what they wanted! The difference is that S1-4 were not hated and the book readers already knew what was going to happen and as soon as something was not as it was in the books, they immediately hated it. Season 5 is the best example. Since season 5 you have to listen to trash-talking from some books snops who infected the whole fandom.
You ask how do I get that?
One example:
I have discussed with a person who wanted
that Arya kill Cercei. It didnt happen. Instead Arya gave up on her revenge so she can live. Therefore this person called it bad writing because it wasnt what the person wanted and so was any discussion ! When someone tells in his video that he didnt like the season/plot because it wasnt what he wanted or hoped it would be then you do not need to ask me again , how do I get that?!
Jay Targ,
You can’t compare Ned’s death and Dany’s downfall. Ned was a good guy killed by a bad guy and Dany was one of the heroes of the show who at the end did something horrible and died for it. Their fans felt like idiots. Not to mention Jon’s fans who wanted him as king or as Chosen One. Or Jaime’s fans who wanted him to kill Cersei.
If Daenerys was killed by Cersei reaction would have been different.
Every large character fandom was wrong. Not to mention people who earned money making theories. They wasted years discussing parts of the story that weren’t that relevant to the endgame. And they also felt like idiots. And they will feel like even bigger idiots if GRRM finishes his book.
Nobody “wanted” those things bad enough to make a serious fuss about it, why? Because those things were IN THE BOOKS. Fandoms, or rather people in general, want what they expect. When they don’t get what they expect, they get angry. And when they get angry, they get hypercritical, hence all the whinging about minor things that wouldn’t have bothered them at all if they had come in an earlier book-reinforced season (like fast travel; they did that all the time in earlier seasons, but only started complaining about it in S5+; hmm I wonder why, keep reading to find out).
Back in S1-4, GoT was giving the fandom what they expected/wanted, which is to say it was following the books closely. Starting with S5, GoT started to venture into unknown territory, and whaddya know people started complaining. S6 gave people what they wanted – Starks retaking Winterfell, those pesky High Sparrows and Former Masters finally dealt with, Dany finally sailing for Westeros, Arya coming home and getting revenge, reveal of Jon’s parentage, etc, basically “the good guys winning”. S7&8 DIDN’T end the way people wanted (i.e. with a simplistic Disney fairytale ending with several of the main characters and all the themes thrown by the wayside), and whaddya know people blew up over it before they even saw its execution.
Farimer123,
Can you imagine if shadow monster, LSH and Young Griff were show only elements? How “fans” would react?
Can you imagine outrage if LSH was something D&D made and if it wasnt book plot point?
DuMb anD dUmBeR rUiNeD rED wEddIng! ThEy DiD iT fOr ShOcK vAlUe!!!!
And later seasons became even harder for D&D because now their work wasn’t compared to the books but to the book purists idea of future books. And most of their ideas are wrong.
You’re a darned good man, Dan Portman.
Also, just ditto Jay Targ, Sandor, Marbery.
And +1 Ahmed & Efi.
I’d have to sorta-kinda agree with the Grandmaester regarding Emilia, BUT I adore and relate to her love of/identification with Daenerys.
The Light King,
There have been several commenters who didn’t like season 8 (and other seasons) on this site TLK. MOST people on this site aim to express their differences in a civilised way. I didn’t hate season 8 GoT myself though other people are entitled to hold differing points of view. What has annoyed me is when I have read things (not just on this site) to the effect that anyone who finds any merit in season 8 must be short of grey matter OR in the pay of HBO or Messrs B&W.
The Light King,
Sorry Light King – it was Sandor who said this site was “massively biased” not you.
mau,
Omg it’s incredibly irritating to hear how people wanted Jon & NK to fight so badly – the “CHOSEN ONE” Jon Snow faces off with the “EEEEEEEVIL DARK LORD” Night King in a final showdown of ultimate destiny like fucking Harry Potter. And of course he’s supposed to become king in the end; gotta follow that “hidden lineage reveals the TRUE king” fantasy trope like fucking Aragorn, even though the show just spent so much time demonstrating how heritdary claims to the throne meant nothing but horseshit in the end. Did Aegon the Conqueror have a claim? Did Robert have a claim? Stannis had a true claim; did that get him the throne in the end or make people want him? Joffrey and Tommen didn’t have true claims; did that stop them from ruling for years? All of it was a trick – a shadow on the wall. “MuH aZoR aHaI**! He got resurrected so he’s supposed to kill the NK!” Then trying to use book theories to back up why he’s supposed to kill a show-only character…
And don’t even get me started on people wanting Jaime to kill Cersei. Like WHY THE FUCK would Jaime travel across the continent to kill his sister – the mother of his unborn child that he left KL in the first place to help defend against the WW – especially after hearing that she was probably going to die anyway?! Why would people believe he would do something so nonsensical and out-of-character? Wait wait, don’t tell me… VOLANQAR! That’s it! The thing that was never discussed mentioned or even foreshadowed in the entire show is somehow going to form the conclusion of Jaime’s entire journey! Besides, a huge series-spanning redemption arc? That’s Theon’s job!
**Side note: the show also spent a lot of time exploring the dangers of fanatical religions, the harm they caused, and the foolishness of relying on prophecies. But if anyone on the show was actually Azor Ahai it was Beric friggen’ Dondarrion! He got resurrected six times immediately by a mediocre drunk priest who had no idea what he was doing, versus Jon’s piddling single time by a devoted priestess which didn’t even work right away. He even wielded a flaming sword that he could ignite magically! And in the end he did help “bring the dawn” by sacrificing himself so Arya could escape the wights.
Dame of Mercia,
Unfortunately it goes both ways, people who like season 8 are stupid, people who don’t like season 8 are stupid. If you like season 8 you are D&D shills, if you don’t like season 8, it’s because you didn’t get what you wanted. Most of it doesn’t apply to me (or you from the sounds of it) so I just keep scrolling.
Farimer123,
The way I see it, Jon’s purpose was to kill Daenerys and save the world from her.
And to build that huge coalition against the Night King ofc. But if we want to reduce him to one act – it will be killing Daenerys.
He saved the world from darkness, from the Iron Throne and another Targaryen tyrant.
Farimer123,
When it comes to Cersei the show was consistent in not making you feel good about her punishment. Walk of Shame, abuse from Robert, Myrcella’s death, Tommen’s death and so on. It makes sense that her death won’t be emotionally simple “fuck yeah” moment that will make you feel good. Her entire story is about how revenge doesn’t really feel good. When you watch Myrcella die that doesn’t make up for Lady’s death for example.
mau,
Question: who bestowed that “purpose” upon Jon Snow?
mau,
Robert insisted in the same scene that “a direwolf’s no pet.” Even Septa in 1×4 began telling Sansa the same thing. Ser Rodrik claimed that they didn’t even belong in the North, and he’s from the North! What Cersei did was not an unpopular thing amongst the southerners, who all saw the pet direwolves as savage beasts reared by uncivilized northerners. They would’ve certainly killed Nymeria if they found her, and with the facts uncertain about how bad Joffrey was hurt or how the direwolf came to attack him, how did they know the other direwolf Lady wouldn’t act up either? Of course we the viewers know the truth: that Lady certainly didn’t need to die, and it’s still a hard scene to watch for me to this day.
Now what makes Cersei evil about all this is that she ENJOYED it. Remember that smirk as Sansa tearfully pleaded for Lady to be spared? The same smirk she had when Margarey was dragged off to prison. Though I agree she’s not 100% evil, like Littlefinger is.
Farimer123,
Cersei enjoys punishing those who she thinks deserve it. She won’t torture a person just because she can, like Ramsay did with Theon.
If I had a dollar for every time someone online told me I’m being paid by HBO, or I’m actually Mr. Benioff and/or Mr. Weiss in disguise 😀
mau,
Hah, I am trying to imagine the look on bookreaders’ faces had Lady Stoneheart been a D&D invention. Would’ve been something to see…
I don’t know where I fit into the “fandom”. I think S4 was the first series I watched as it was broadcast. I didn’t have Sky, but kept hearing about GoT and thought it sounded like something I’d like, so I got the first three series on DVD.
I’m not always good at following plots, so I decided to read the books before watching each series. So I knew what was coming. Once the show went off-book, though, I relished not knowing what was coming next. I didn’t have any firmly-held opinions on what should happen, and just enjoyed the interaction of the characters.
I loved S8, and thought it was much better than S7. I do agree with what Daniel Portman said, though. It just needed a bit more time. I think it would have been better with some restructuring and additional scenes. Plus there were a few anomalies that should have been fixed or explained: Cersei not looking pregnant, for instance. However I was satisfied with the outcome.
I know it’s wrong, but what I loved about Iwan Rheon’s Ramsay is that he genuinely enjoyed torturing people and seemed to want his victims to enjoy it too! We saw that he was a sado-masochist who also relished having pain inflicted on himself. I’m afraid I found fun-loving Ramsay quite irresistible!
“This is turning into a LOVELY evening!”
Jack Bauer 24,
hahaha
“The worst one I got recently – and it really hurt, like it genuinely cut me up a little bit – [was at] the supermarket the day after episode 5 had aired of the last season when Daenerys had just gone out, all out … had a moment” she said. “This woman turned to me and went, ‘I don’t know how you can show your face around here.’ And I literally went *pained gasp* ‘I just need to get some milk.’ It was heartbreaking”
My girlfriend (who is watching GoT for first time) pointed this out to me one of these days and we both ended up being disgusted by such behavior.
kevin1989,
“Now what happened is that in season 5 the priority of D&D became to please the “NF” instead of the “FftB”. They even admitted it that they needed to worry about a bigger audience.”
Couldn’t agree more! If you put all the things they said one after the other it’s easy to understand what they did. They haven’t hidden anything and that’s to their honor.
But with s8 it was more than that. Had they not so consciously and systematically tried to subvert all fans (old and new ones) expectations (which they stated that they did), perhaps the audience would be a bit more pleased. They could have given a little piece of cheese to the little mouse and perhaps much would be forgiven (for example, Jon fighting Whites, or a moment with all the Starks, or even a moment with Jon-Dany that wasn’t totally abusive). Also, had they given some more time, perhaps an episode, the story would “breath” better.
Sometimes pleasing the audience isn’t that bad.
Lord Parramandas,
What can you do! I stopped trying to convince my mom that the stories she watches on TV never happened in reality. People live with their TVs.
Efi,
Martin never said that to the producers. I saw the seeds being planted for many seasons.
Sandor,
Nobody pulled any reviews. You just making that up.
Jenny,
Jenny,
No she said she only wanted to know what happened to her each season. People keep claiming D&D hid it from her. That’s bullshit she said in the THR roundtable she only wanted to know what was happening for the season she was shooting at the time.
Fireandblood87,
He said it in an interview that’s all over the internet and it would be weird if they never read it (because they have secretaries and publicists and it’s their job to inform them). And I doubt that he didn’t say it to them. Martin said that he didn’t give the story to anyone else because the producers all told him “let’s do it about this or that”. So I guess that he gave them the story on condition that they wouldn’t make it so one-sided. After they split up, however, I suppose that it was completely on them alone to decide where they’d take the story. (they said so in their latest interview). That’s why it worked so well until s4. After that it was their call.
Efi,
Hi there, Efi 🙂 Is this the quote you’re thinking of?
This was an answer in response to the question, “Given the complexity of A Song of Ice and Fire, did you have concerns over how faithfully it could work onscreen?” from an April 2014 interview with Rolling Stone.
I believe what Martin was saying here was that he was against adapting the story to just follow around the stories of one or two characters from the beginning and he wanted to include all of the various plots when telling this story — which the show did when adapting the series. The show followed the stories of many different characters (Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Jon, Dany, etc.)
However, a bit like how Martin said the Starks were the center of the story in the beginning, the stories of a few characters may become especially significant in hindsight at the end — not that the story should follow only these two characters. It needed all of their stories because those stories shared various views about this world and explored various ideas. Alan Taylor was sharing what Martin told him — if Taylor misspoke, I’m sure Martin or somebody associated with Martin would have corrected it as it would be a misrepresentation of Martin’s words.
Efi,
I cannot find any interview saying George told the producers to not make it just about Jon and Dany.
Fireandblood87,
It was about the beginning. How anyone who wanted to adapt ASOIAF wanted to cut 80% of the books and that Benioff and Weiss were the only people who actually wanted to adapt everything.
GREM himself said that his idea is that the story expands after the first book and then everyone comes together at the end and it becomes more focused. Like in LOTR. All those separate journeys and then characters are together at the end.
mau,
So they did exactly what he said.
Adrianacandle,
IIRC, someone wanted to make a movie about Jon, it could have worked actually, it would just be him teaming up with the wildlings against the WW. That’s plenty for a movie.
Fireandblood87,
It’s pointless to criticize the show for focusing on fewer locations and characters at the end, when GRRM inability to do that is the reason books are not finished.
If it was possible for story to be all over the place until the end the books would have been finished. It’s only natural that the story will be in one or two locations at the end.
Could this be the intro?? 😉
I also saw a lovely video featuring a torrid and angsty JonxSamxTyrionxLC Mormont love… square… with a soft jazz version of the GoT theme song playing in the background!
On a serious note, I agree. I think you could with quite a few of the main characters and develop a stand-alone movie about them. There’s a lot of material there.
Adrianacandle,
Daenerys’ story could be a movie. Arya’s as well if you start with ACOK and just skip her story in KL.
mau,
Yes! And Arya’s would make a great story on its own! (I believe Ten Bears would like The Adventures of Arya and the Hound 😉 ) I think Jaime and Brienne would make a nice story of their own too!
But then they get cries of “fanservice!” There are plenty of people complaining that certain things were written in “just to please the fans”.
Example: Cleganebowl.
The Light King,
I’m the only book reader in my surrounding here. And I liked s5 till s8 better than the ones that didn’t read it. So that argument is just bullcrab. (That it only comes from bookreaders).
And instead of stating the obvious that people complained about certain things with s8, give arguments why s8 was great, what you liked etc. But the only argument I read is: The people who didn’t like season 8, didn’t like it because they didn’t get what they wanted. Instead of focusing on them focus on arguments that shows us why s8 was a masterpiece. Instead of complaining about people who didn’t found s8 a masterpiece.
100%, Jay. No one is going to wish for a bad outcome for a favourite character. Most of us, however, can accept it, appreciate what is done well about it, the sense it makes, how it fits the story, etc etc, even if it isn’t how we wanted the character to end up. That’s how it goes with any story. Saying “They hate everything just because they love this character and they didn’t get what they want” is juvenile.
I love Game of Thrones, I liked and didn’t like some of the characters’ endings, but my issue with Season 8 was not to do with how things ended, but the way some things were done or not done in order to get there. Simple.
Some people are so focused on being outraged that other people didn’t like something, that they’ve worked themselves up with assumptions and a gusto far beyond what those they bitch about ever have. 😆
mau,
Maybe read interviews of martin for a change and you see why your statement is death wrong. Martin even told years ago that Azor Ahai prophecy will come into play in the books. D&D even admitted that s8 is only 20% accurate with the book version of events. No I think when winds finish it’s the fans that keep on hammering that the books will go the same route will be the one that will see that they were wrong. So stop insulting people to make a point. Give arguments. What you do is Fallacy.
But how much do you want to bet that what you state will be the end of the books will be the same as the show? I don’t have a problem betting with everything I own that what you suggest will end in the books will end that way in the books.
mau,
But I would advice you to take back once winds is released they would feel like idiots. Because the bigger chance is that it’s not them who will feel like an idiot when the book is released. And if the books will be in fact different and those ”theorist” happen to be right. I wonder how you will react then. Will it be: Martin changes his books to make a point, this is not what the books was suppose to be, D&D version was his first version.
Or will you take it like a man and state that you were wrong. I wonder. But I think already which one it would be.
For me if I will be wrong and indeed what we saw in season 6 and 7 will happen. Cersei becoming queen. Blowing up the sept. The wall still standing at the end of the book. Stannis loses against the Bolton’s and Jon take back the castle. Jon going to Dragonstone to take Dany north. Dany burning KL at the end and not dying as Nissa Nissa. Jaime and Cersei dying together when Daenerys attack the castle instead of YG winning against Cersei. Jaime not having a long relationship with Brienne (I advice you too look up Martin’s words about that).
Farimer123,
See above, many people who didn’t read the books have the opinion that s1 till s4 were the better seasons. So how do you explain that? If it’s indeed that s1 till s4 were closer too the books you already know where the problem lies and you made an argument for the ones who dislike s8.
As about not getting what they wanted is also not valid: Ned’s death. RW, Oberyn’s death. Renly’s death, and many more. but people rated those episode high. The ones where their heroes died (the RW) was rated with a 9,9. It has nothing to do with “People didn’t get what they wanted”. If that was the case, season 2 wouldn’t even been greenlight. GoT was build on the “The fans don’t get their fanservice and horrible things happen” that’s what made the show this big, the unpredictability.
And I would advice too look back at the video that Petra (mod on WotW) made. She never liked Daenerys. she always saw Dany as a more dark then good. And even she didn’t like what the bells did.
As for me personally, I always saw show-Dany ending the way she did, burning cities to the ground etc was always on her mind. So I bough her turning dark when the episode aired. And I will still “enjoy” (enjoying burning people is rather strange to say but you get the point) that episode. The horror of Arya’s journey through KL was perfect.
Fireandblood87,
No; that’s what I said. He didn’t tell D&D, he told the entire world.
Grandmaester Flash,
🔥🐉😂
Adrianacandle,
Don’t be mislead by the hyphen in between.
Yes, that’s the statement.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I’ll never take one show-working person as a spokesman of Martin. (no matter what Taylor said -already years ago- or how he said it).
kevin1989,
You misunderstood me. I just wanted to say, that many book readers hate D&D and the show since season 5/6. Therefore this snops I call people like this snops, offend D&D and the show because D&D didn’t write the story and the characters in the way this snops want it.
Its a fact that many book reader think that they know the story and the characters way better than the show runners and why do they say that? Because D&D do not take the story in the direction some snops prefer and the manipulated Twitter interview underpins my argument!
mau,
…and as the last Targaryen and heir to the Seven Kingdoms, literally watched the door shut on them as he led the people who CHOSE him back home.
kevin1989,
Season 1 and 2 aren’t better than season 5. They just aren’t. Compare the episodes.
Compare season 1 and 5. The only episode that are better in season 1 than in season 5 are 1,6,7 maybe 9. The rest goes to season 5 in my opinion. Don’t tell me that season 1 and 2 are better than season 6. They just aren’t. Season 6 is easily on of the best seasons of GoT. I know book readers will say something different because 1-4 are GRRM and 5-8 shitty D&D.
Hyphen? What do you mean?
What my post was really about concerned how the two statements (Martin’s 2014 comments and the conversation Alan Taylor had with Martin) do not contradict each other.
As for Alan Taylor, alright, I see no reason to doubt what Alan Taylor shared. He is a reputable director who worked with Martin, spoke with him, and he shared some of that conversation. If Taylor was misrepresenting anything of what Martin said, something would have been said.
Everything we know about future plot points in the books that have come from Martin has been relayed by those associated with the show (2/3 “holy sh!t” moments being Shireen and Hodor’s deaths came from D&D. Bran becoming king came from Isaac Hempstead Wright. Conversation with Martin about J/D from Alan Taylor).
lol
“I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is going to be that different from my ending,” says author George R.R. Martin about the HBO series moving beyond his books.
Then why all videos about how GoT should have ended have different ending? Why they don’t make videos how to make this ending work better?
The Light King,
I never met any non-reader in real life who said that there was decline after S4. That exist only in online fandom. Show only watchers infleunced by book purists. I never heard complaints about S5-7 in real life.
When people are really dissatisfied with something ratings go down, not up.
Exactly. A lot of the hardcore Dany/Emilia fans I’ve seen online just hate the season as a whole because of Dany’s descent into madness. They hate it so much, that they wish ill will onto the brilliant men that are Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. It’s quite troublesome.
Efi, what? I don’t even know what your talking about.
mau,
Can you imagination if D&D invented their own characters how the fan-base would react. What if they would make a character named Ross that was a whore in Winterfell with her own storyline that traveled to Kings Landing and get involved with Littlefinger and later with Varys. Can you imagine how the book-fans would react to death.
Or can you imagine if they would let Cat stop Ned from going south unlike the books where she pushed Ned to go. Would you imagine the change, how the book fans would react to that.
Or can you imagine how the book fans would react if the wife of Robb Stark would also die at the Red Wedding instead of staying alive like the books. Can you imagine the backlash D&D would get.
Or can you imagine how book fans would react when Thormund and not the Lord of Bones and Magnar will go over the wall with Jon. And if they would let Orell stay alive and that he would also go with Jon in season 3. Could you imagine the backlash then. Probably nothing good, book fans only want what’s in the books.
Can you imagine if Alayaya wasn’t in the books and Rose would take her place in season 2. Can you imagine, a show only character taking the place of a book character.
Can you imagine if Baristan would reveal himself the moment he meet Dany, nothing good that change.
Can you imagine if Vargo Hoat wasn’t in the show and replaced by a character named Locke who isn’t in the Brave Companions but a bannerman of Roose, can you imagine the backlash.
Can you imagine if they would invent a whole storyline for Jon and Arya in season 4 that is not in the books. Would you imagine the backlash they will get from inventing storylines. Season 4 would not perceive that well.
Would you imagine all the backlash, I couldn’t imagine the backlash D&D got from those many changes in those 4 seasons. Even thinking about it gives me shivers how much backlash D&D got in those seasons.
Jack Bauer 24,
I’am a big Daenerys fan and she is my favorite character and in my opinion the most complex. Her “turn” which wasn’t truly a turn for me didn’t bother me because I knew that this will happen some day and the seeds were there. I thought her whole arc and ending was brilliant. Even she didn’t sit on the throne, at least she touched the throne once, hahaha
kevin1989,
I don’t remember 20% ever being said by them.
When you want Arya to kill Cersei wearing Jaime’s face your problem is not execution. Clearly.
If you want to improve execution you have suggestions like I had. Split E4 and E6 into 2 episodes and keep all plot points the same. Because that’s what execution is. Not changing all plot points and saying my problem was pacing. No it wasn’t. Be honest.
And there were people who fought against Mad Queen theory in 2011. Long before the last season.
Just like there are fans of SW who are fundamentally against Kylo and Rey’s love relationship and they will hate it no matter how it was (potentially) written in E9.
PS there are people who like all plot points but have problems with execution, but those people are small minority. When you like what happened and not how it happened you don’t have massive meltdown like GoT haters had.
mau,
I agree completely 🙂
kevin1989,
Fandom hated Ross and Talisa. You clearly became part of the fandom late because people had problems with almost everything you said.
kevin1989,
And fandom hated Craster’s Keep plot in S4. A lot.
Efi,
I agree, D&D have much honor, and I don’t deny that they want the best. And I still believe they delivered. Do I think some things could have been better, yes and I wish it happened that way. But still I’m very happy what D&D gave us with the 8 seasons. Not a single season of episode of GoT is bad or lower than a 8,0. It still ranks with me in my top 10 (don’t know where precisely). And for me when I like a show for me in the end when watching I don’t care with “This episode is better” (which I still see of course which I like better) or “This is a stupid scene” etc, I just enjoy the ride. Again with reruns I do that. Some scenes I’m not that invested in, but I still like every second of it. (only need 3×10 and season 3 is done)
But to end this comment, I still have a lot of respect for D&D.
Efi,
Remembers me of those people who read the gossip tabloids and think they are the smartest people out there.
I’m a Daenerys fan as well and I too think her ending was brilliant. The writing, the execution, the production, everything about it. Greatest TV moment of all time when she panned around KL on top of Drogon before she turned mad.
mau,
Did you know martin first publish Daenerys whole book 1 arc a month before book 1 came out. And it had some changes when book 1 was released.
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blood_of_the_Dragon
Pigeon,
Agree. Or the “Why do you keep watching if you didn’t like it”. I had issues in the end with season 8 (and 5 till 8 more precisely which had nothing to do with book changes, I have no problem with liking 2 different versions) and right now I’m on a rerun. I think I will watch the whole season. Would be nice if I could end the show before christmas and could do a LotR rerun after that.
I wan’t to show you the world (And is the song in your head if not think about a flying carpet)
I wan’t to show you the world (And is the song in your head if not think about a flying carpet)
The Light King,
I agree with you that. And there’s no reason that people should become personal with D&D. For me even when the books are completely different (I expect some things to be different as I stated fiercely) it still won’t alter my opinion of the show version of events. Both are different and both can be adored. For instance Jon story of season 4 is not in the books his trip to Craster’s Keep. But still I love those moments with Jon there. And with my rerun I’m looking forward to that moment.
But that doesn’t mean that people can’t feel like they are let down, it’s their right to feel that. As long as they express it as their feelings and not put blame to it like it’s some event of life and death. Even if season 8 would be the disaster some people claim it too be doesn’t mean I think D&D should get abuse of that. Like my partner says who is of opinion that s5 till s8 is not as it used to be, and he expected more of s8 and found it very rushed. But when I want to talk about it he just says: it’s over, I move on to other shows.
He is not a book reader so for him it’s of course 100% over. For me I still like to talk theories of the books with Efi and Adriana and keep busy with the story that’s AsoIaF/GoT. It’s just amazing that this story book and show both you can still discuss that much about. And personally I get annoyed when some try to dismiss our little theory talks that it’s nonsense to do because the show gave us what we needed. Instead of letting us who want to theorize things about the books in civil manner to having fun with it without being disrespectful to anyone and especially not D&D.
Jack Bauer 24,
Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss are truly some masterminds 😉
Having high rate episodes doesn’t mean that the season is great. And the same can be said the other way around. Many high rated shows have very low rated episode ratings and also some low rated shows have high rated episode ratings.
A consistent season means a good season. But the episode count could be around 8,0 for most of the episodes because with consistent season that also mean that it will build to one big moment. Those building episode are most of the time not that highly rated but they are necessary to execute the high rated episode better. An example of that is the show the shield. That show itself is very highly rated and seen as one of the best shows out there. But looking at the episode count itself, most episodes rated below 8,0. Still looking the whole show as a whole, it’s consistent and greatly written.
At the same time there are shows that can give us a 9,0 rating for every episode in a season. Every episode contain some big moment that is excited and would grand them that big rating. But still a show like that can miss the glue that holds things together, most of the time the glue episodes are not that exited and rated lower, but it make the season better as a whole.
And imdb is not a reliable source, else s8 is the lowest rated season out there.
As for my last rerun when I finish the whole series last my best to last was:
S4 > S6> S1 > S3 > S8 > S7 > S2 > S5
As you can see back then season 2 rated my second least season, and season 6 my second favorite season.
As for now I’m almost finish with S3 so maybe it will change. But I rate the seasons now
S1 > S3 > S2. Maybe S3 will end below S2 or above S2, I will make my final judgement after I finish 3×10. And then S4 will start and I will put that in place where I think it fits at this moment.
If you speculate many persons that despised the GOT8 do so because they did not get the ending they wanted – it also works to speculate that the persons that liked GOT8 do so because they got the ending they wanted.
Outside of this speculation – Many beloved series are beloved DESPITE the story not ending whatever way many viewers wanted/hoped/predicted.
The “The Wire” had the deaths of major characters and was not a happy, conclusive ending in that the problems were over. However, the story had integrity to the final credit. As for fans favorite – The most iconic character “Omar” died. Stringer Bell died as well. They killed Wallace. Wee Bey went to prison. Yet no-one complains. It remains top-notch TV.
Broadwalk Empire was discontinued and nearly all the main characters died. “Richard” died. Chalky died, Nucky died. Jimmy died. Arnold died. However, the story was wound down early but gracefully.
The Godfather series is a tragedy. Still beloved.
Frodo did not get to live happily with his friends in the Shire.
I just watched the Irishman and Parasite, nothing good happens to anyone – but they are satisfying pieces of work. (Deeply satisfying in case of Parasite!)
Lots of beloved stories have ending that fans may not have wanted. However, it is possible to provide a deeply satisfying ending nevertheless for the millions of viewers and critics. Many series and storytellers have proved able to do so. GOT, nope. Not even close.
I would rank them S4 > S8 > S6 > S5 > S7 > S2 > S1 > S3
No episode ranked lower then a 9.0
mau,
Ending is something different than book-journey is it not? Ending is like it said ending. Jon being at the wall, Arya sailing away West, Sansa queen, Bran King, Jaime and Cersei death, Daenerys died by the hands of Jon.
And as you state with Martin’s video that the ending will not differ that much in the books. Which I don’t deny. Jon will be at the wall, Arya will sail West, Sansa will be a Queen, Bran will be a King, Jaime, Cersei and Dany die, and Dany by the hands of Jon.
The only thing that Martin statement states that it’s not completely the same the ending. There will be different, so probably the way these endings are executed will be different. Maybe Jon will go to the Wall for another reason instead of Killing of Daenerys. Maybe Sansa will be queen and Bran King but the place is changed, maybe Jon kills Dany for Nissa Nissa. Even with those changes in the books GRRM statement stays true, the ending of book and show doesn’t differ that much. But it differs. (Ending doesn’t mean season 8 as a whole if you think that he means that with ending)
This statement was only about the ending. GRRM already stated his route to those endings will differ a lot. And that most of his book material from Winds feel new for the people who watched the show.
Jack Bauer 24,
My rank is:
S4>S6>S3>S8>S5>S1>S2>S7
They stated that every season they wrote they were 10% less accurate than the last. (Butterfly effect) and that’s the way how adaption worked. Doing the math that comes at 20% for season 8. (Edit 30%)
And it’s logical. For instance Theon and Sansa bounding isn’t in the books. Or Grey Worm and Missandei romance (which would be creepy if it was in the books), or Varys working for Dany. Cersei killing Missandei as a final push. And many more things like that. Do I care that those changes are there, no, I just enjoy both versions and I appreciate both versions.
mau,
I agree with you here. About episode 4 and 6.
And as for: Book vs show.
What does it even matter if things are different. I liked both versions of LotR, HP, Dexter (books and show), the lovely bones, and more. People can love 2 versions of the same story.
Because people. And because social media loves to give attention to extremes – even if those who shout loudest and talk most, may have the least to actually say.
Mango,
Not close in your opinion. I think they did a fantastic job.
kevin1989,
It has nothing to do with high rated episodes. I don’t give a shit about ratings or imdb. It’s just my personal opinion. I just disagree that season 1 and 2 are much better or just better than Season 5.
I think that the first half of season 5 is much stronger than season 1, the second hafls are equal in my opinion.
A Golden Crown, You Win or You Die, Baelor are pretty damn good, The Gift, Hardhome, Mothers Mercy are great too. So I don’t see why some people say that season 5 is bad or weak. It doesn’t need to be like season 4 or better or on the same level as other season, its enough for me if it keeps its quality and what I’m expecting from Game of Thrones and season 5 didn’t disappoint me.
I was in the fandom since season 1 when many moderators of WotW were moderators on winteriscoming. I left that side for this one because of the moderators. Talisa had backlash in season 2. But in season 3 that backlash was almost gone, only a small minority. Ross was loved by most.
Many of those changes were even liked like Thormund with Jon at the wall-climbing. And Orell was also loved by most fans. And the ratings is also a clear sign that people can live with change. Season 4 is the highest rated season of GoT. But when comparing S1 till S4, S4 is the season with the most original material. Arya’s storyline was also met with love.
I have just been looking at reviews on IMDb for the Bells, very interesting that the majority of reviewers who gave one star only ever reviewed S8 of Game of Thrones. If IMDb could clean up this obvious coordinated attack I suspect this episode would score very highly as most ratings are high apart from the numerous 1/10 with one line of review,
The Light King,
S5 didn’t disappoint me, but last time I watch it it ranked lowest. Maybe this time it will rank higher.
But for me I don’t rate episode and seasons how exiting it is, how much action is in it. If some flashy seems happen.
But if the pace is right, are the character motivations logical and making sense when looking what came before.
Do the character moments make me feel something. (Like for instance Cersei in 2×09 or Jaime in 3×05 those scenes moved me very much)
Plotholes will lower the season. Scenes that are not serving any purpose except nudity, torture or just for the sake of action will lower the season for me.
Rushing also grand lower rating for me.
And hollywood tricks also grand a lower rating.
And as for now with the 3 seasons I almost finish watching. S2 ranked lowest for me because of pacing, I found it sometimes rushing towards a point. But this time with rewatch I could enjoy some changes like the Ygritte scenes, I really love those this time. And I though Dany’s storyline was too stretched. 3 episodes with her in the red waste. And Daenerys in Qarth I also found too stretched. (not perse the scenes but having her in every episode but having only 1 scene that doesn’t feel like it belong in that episode 2×08 scene for instance)
Season 3 ranked second. I found it more exiting than season 2. The Red Wedding is the best episode up until now. Every episode has some amazing moments. The character building is great. The Wedding of Tyrion is amazingly executed (And I found the non-book scenes amazing). His watch has ended was amazing with Craster’s Keep and Astapor. Amazing season. But I skipped every Theon’s scene except that scene where he talks with Ramsay about Ned. I don’t want too see his torture again. I rather wish we would have seen Theon like the books again when his transformation was complete, not that I don’t understand why he is in season 3 and I’m not against changes, but I can’t stand those torture scenes.
S1 rank highest. The pacing is just perfect. I only skipped one scene (LF porn scene in 1×07). Everything else was perfect for me. Every scene serves to the plot and characters. The character building is great. The building towards the end of the season was amazingly done. They didn’t resolve to some Hollywood tricks to keep the audience invested. You either are or you aren’t invested. They told the story with a beginning middle end for every storyline without resolving to the big scene every episode.
People wanted Jamie to kill Cersei because it’s a long standing book theory, they hated being wrong about it and likely bombed the show. I doubt it will go down that way in the books either right now but I wouldn’t totally rule it out either.
Same as Jon being Azor Ahai another clear book prophecy I suspect this will play slightly differently in the books but not majorly. By that Jon will save the realm but not in a dual.
Jon Snowed,
Agree, I still don’t understand why imdb don’t do anything about it. It’s also their reputation that’s on stake. They are not the reliable source anymore that they were.
Jon Snowed,
And book is not the show. Things are different. I for instance think Cersei and Jaime won’t die together in the books and Azor Ahai prophecy is more important in the books. And many things are different. But I love Jaime Cersei ending in the show. For the show it make sense how their journey was. And I love that scene.
Jon Snowed,
And I also don’t think the books will go with a flashy battle when it comes to the Azor Ahai prophecy. Lightbringer will not be a sword that grand you powerkill against WW. Something else will happen with that prophecy, but what who knows, the books aren’t out. And I expect something that is exited for book but not for screen.
Jon Snowed,
Giving a 1 star is ridiculous. Do people realise what a 1 star is. Movies like The Room should get a 1 star.
Fireandblood87,
Ok, it’s not one interview, it’s two.
Rolling Stone, 2014.
“RS: Given the complexity of A Song of Ice and Fire, did you have concerns over how faithfully it could work onscreen?
GRRM: (…) Some people I met thought we have to find the story’s through line. Who’s the important character? Somebody thought that Dany’s the important character – cut away everybody else, tell the story of Dany. Or Jon Snow. Those were the two most popular characters to build everything around, except you’re losing 90 percent of the story.”
Time, 2017
“Time: It must have been a leap to allow this adaptation to happen, knowing it could never be as internal as a novel could.
GRRM: (…) I had a number of meetings long before David and Dan, with people who said this is the next Lord of the Rings franchise. But they couldn’t get a handle on the size of the material, the very thing that I set out to do. I had all these meetings saying, “There’s too many characters, it’s too big — Jon Snow is the central character. We’ll eliminate all the other characters and we’ll make it about Jon Snow.” Or “Daenerys is the central character. We’ll eliminate everyone else and make the movie about Daenerys.” And I turned down all those deals.”
You said this: “I cannot find any interview saying George told the producers to not make it just about Jon and Dany.”
I might agree with this, but I don’t think in the numerous discussions they had he never actually mentioned it.
While a producer is excused to adapt a story to fit the little/big screen standards, such complex stories tend to be tricky. Season 8 was not enough as ending to such a great story.
Anyway, please forgive me if that was too curt.
Efi,
To each his own I disagree. I very much enjoy the ending.
Fireandblood87,
I think I don’t want to know the movie the room 🙂
kevin1989,
Warm thanks!
I’m thinking of the magic carpet now… She has dragons, can I have a flying carpet??? [I could park it right next to my veranda just like Skywalker parked his flying-whatever-it-was, lol]
Seriously, it’s my fault people don’t get me some times. I tend to condense, sometimes too abruptly; I must work on that.
Lately I have been thinking whether I didn’t like s8 because I wanted my own ending, just like Mau says. Of course I did want my own ending. Still I understood the ending of the show and I could accomodate it in show-context, with all its subtleties, and I get it what they wanted to tell us. I still can’t re-watch it. I started it, but stopped at ep 3, knowing what’s next (eps 4-6 being all about Dany and her long anticipated dark turn).
I did start rereading the books though. I’m quite pleased with them. I hadn’t noticed that Tyrion was an enemy of JC from the very beginning. I was impressed; it appears that since that moment Tyrion is set on neutralizing them for gaining favor with Daenerys himself.
Pigeon,
A few of the persons writing are quite young and not very worldly – you can see that from the aggressive rudeness and gauche analysis. But they are persistent and lots of patience is required to continue to engage. I often just skip rantings of the rude posters.
But the Internet is like that. All types within reach of a keyboard.
Same. And everyone I’ve discussed GoT with over the years offline (friends/co workers) think the ending is brilliant as well. Really heady and earned all around. I thought every character’s ending was earned from the beginning and Arya’s is the most earned in tv history.
Efi,
I may be wrong but I think you said in another post you write – or are in some way involved in a narrative (fiction or non-fiction). Or you had training in writing? This may be a part of why it did not work for you. Maybe it was your instinctive sense of a good narrative.
I am a published author (co-author!) of 4 books (mostly narrative non-fiction). I have no formal training and this is not my chief profession. (I wrote an article for my employer, it was circulated in professional circles and I was invited by one of the world’s best publishing houses to extend it for my first book. After that, the others happened by mostly luck and chance.) I am sure this is why GOT8 did not work for me.
kevin1989,
You act like fandom was sunshine and rainbows before S5. It wasn’t. There was huge backlash in the fandom about S4. And a lot of them called 410 the worst episode of the show back then.
And yes. Rating were high on IMDB. Ratings were high until 802. Because no one outside of fandom really cared about things those people hated, including Dorne and Sand Snakes. I never met anyone in real life caring about them. I don’t know anyone who liked them, but no one really cared about them or hated them with passion. I never met anyone really giving a fuck about LF giving Sansa to the Boltons or even White Hunt. That drama was always contained within the fandom. Only with S8 and the last 3 episodes it became more mainstream.
kevin1989,
The point is that you made up that statement about 20%. Benioff and Weiss never said anything similar.
I always liked Dorne. It was awesome seeing the world expand and it was a beautiful location. I thought the Sand Snakes were fun too.
Not convinced to be honest. When you go on any place where people talk about their problems with S8 they always basically want different plot points.
I never saw anyone saying – I really loved Jaime and Cersei’s ending as an idea but I would change this to make it better.
Or I really liked when Jon killed Daenerys but I would like to be done in this way instead. When they say they want different execution they say that in the books Jon will kill her to stop WW. Alt Shift X made a video about it. That’s not different execution, that’s completely different outcome.
Different execution would be to say – I love the idea of Daenerys going all fire and blood, burning a city that already surrendered and Jon killing her to save the world from her, but I just wish it was done in a different way. Because that’s what execution is. Not changing circumstances, not making destruction of KL as some sort of accident,not making excuses for Dany.
You will probably find some people that really have problems with execution only, but they are small majority. Dany fans always thought that the idea of Mad Queen is sexist and offensive. They thought that in 2011 and they are thinking that now.
Well fortunately I don’t need to convince you. 🙂 I mean, I’m a fan of Dany, and I don’t find the idea of her going Mad Queen sexist or offensive. Do I wish it’d come out differently? Sure. Do I wish there had been one or two more episodes in Season 8 to go a little more in depth? Yup. Do I know how? Not really, I could throw ideas around, but I’m no writer. I mean, I suppose I am, since I published a book, but I don’t think a children’s book with simple poetry and googly eyed avian subjects qualifies. 😆
But then, I do think people can be unhappy with something fictional while not being able to verbalize an alternative. Making it personal towards others is not cool, however.
I tend to be more interested in small moments, as well. Like I really loved the moment when Tyrion pulled up a chair and prepared to have what I can only assume was a long discussion with Bran in front of the fireplace. It showed Tyrion’s interest in understanding people and stories, and honestly who else bothered? Maybe they did, we don’t know. Maybe it played a role in Tyrion’s speech to the council, in his view of Bran being King of the Monotone Kingdoms. Little things, that could affect bigger things.
Sorry Kevin, I always enjoy our interactions despite having differing views on Young Griff but where are you getting these statements from? I have not seen a single reliable source that supports any of S8 is only 20% of the book, Young Griff is end game or Danys ending will be different.
I would say it’s all about perception and experience which will clearly be down to the individual. For example I know several book readers and show only watchers, pretty much all of them agree S6 was the best of the show. A mix of them foresaw Dany becoming the villain – based on book material mostly – and those same people were happiest with S8. The only place I have seen criticism that the early seasons were best is online and that largely from Westeros.org
Of course this is only my experience and it doesn’t make it correct but it does help shape my perception and opinion.
Having done a rewatch my order from best to weakest S6 – S4 – S8 – S3 – S1 – S2 – s7 – S5.
S3 and S8 hard to separate though.
Hmm, I’d probably rank them
S4, S3, S1, S2, S6, S8, S5, S7
Cersei killing Missandei in the books can’t be ruled out but I suspect it was a show invention. In the books Missandei is much younger so clearly no romance with Greyworm. Both characters are much more minor in the books too.
I do feel Dany killing Varys is likely though, most likely for him backing fAegon though and before Dany heads North to help Jon.
Jon Snowed,
I think that’s a show invention, there is a good chance that Dany and Cersei never meet in the books. My own guess is that Cersei flees/dies before Dany sets foot in Westeros.
It could unfold in so many ways, Cersei could be on the throne as fAegon/Dany both vie for it. But fAegon is already in the Stormlands and Dany apparently won’t leave Essos until the end of Winds. So it’s probably more likely that Cersei has to flee fAegon, and Dany deals with him as a fake Targ, not knowing there is a real one up North.
Dany killing Varys is very probable I think.
This could be a mistake on GRRM’s part, introducing fAegon so late, it may be that the show had it right keeping Cersei around. There is no way that they could have replaced such a huge character in S5 with a nobody. I don’t know if it will be successful in the books, but I think that’s what he will do.
Indeed. People have probably forgotten — it’s been, what, five and a half years since then — but online fandom reaction was really… let’s say loud… when 4×10 aired. Main points: they destroyed Tyrion by omitting Tysha’s role in his downward spiral, they destroyed Brienne and Sandor by having them fight each other, they destroyed _______ (insert your own pick) by leaving out Lady Stoneheart.
Did I miss anything? 😉
Mango,
Yes, you’re quite right.
It’s totally my fault. The more one becomes more accomplished in anything, the more he/she remains unsatisfied with what’s out there.
Just to be clear, I don’t write literature. I write history. Mine is just a small niche in the overall historical studies out there. I authored two monographs and several longer or smaller articles in three languages.
I’ve been writing almost all my life -since I was twelve. Writing is my thing; it could have been painting, -the arts were always at the center of my interests- but I chose not to go there. But perhaps I take up writing literature after I retire, I’ve been thinking about it lately.
So I try not to be too critical of other people’s work if that work involves writing. But sometimes I can’t help it. I may read something irrelevant, like a random article in The Guardian or even in Marie Claire and I immediately go “well, yes, but there’s this and this and where does this fit in?” or “yes, but this a one-sided perspective” and I hate myself for it because I should be able to enjoy sth even if it’s not that good, right? I believe it’s not good to seek perfection in everything, it might lead one to misery.
But of course it’s good for my students; I can take their papers and show them exactly what to do with their own flaws, fix them and try to avoid them next time. I feel very proud of them when they reach perfection in the sense that the reader goes “wow!” at the end, and closes the paper satisfied to have read it.
With GOT season 8 all I see is flaws; the more I watched it, the more flaws I saw (I watched each episode 3 times when it aired and my last attempt was the 4th). But I do wonder if I wanted my own ending like Mau says; I don’t know if there’s any point discussing this now that it’s over and done with, and suggest what could have been done better with the same ending.
If I had to put an overall characterization on it I’d say that it wasn’t a brave narrative. It made its major protagonist look like a little woman, her fall almost a fall by accident instead of a natural ending to her own choices, her major rival wasn’t a rival at all and his PoV was shut out throughout the season. In a sense, the narrative tried to stay true to the hero trope that they had chosen for Daenerys since season 6, but at the same time they tried to stay true to Martin’s Daenerys arc (if my overall estimate of it is correct) by reaching the same ending while embelishing it with imagery from WW II. This created conflicting feelings to the audience and it’s understandable.
Can one have it both ways? Can you have the hero and the tyrant, the love and the abuse, the hero and his punishment, the murder and the conflict while all along you’re undercutting all of these until the very last moment? I guess that the problem with this is not really that you can’t have everything; on the contrary Martin’s purpose is to show that everything and everyone is grey, not black and white, but he’ll make everyone face up to their own choices and their ending will be true to who they are in(his)-universe. Imo the problem with the show is that at the end there’s no clear characterization for any of the protagonists; for much of ep. 8.6 (actually throughout the season) it seemed as if the protagonists were experimenting, not reaching there with reason and consequence to who they were, because “who they were” was not clear in seasons 7-8.
But at the same time I wonder whether a different narrative wouldn’t be closer to my taste only (with the same ending). In the end, what if all those who did want Dany as a straight up hero, those who wanted a full romance were right and I’m wrong? What if Jon being conflicted about killing her in spite of the fact that she was a bloody tyrant because he truly loved her is the right way to go about it and I’m wrong?
I tend to doubt myself, but at the same time I doubt about others’ estimates too because their’s is also what they wanted, so why should they be right? It’s a cyclical way of thinking that has no end.
[well, it will only end when ADoS comes out -perhaps it won’t be too long now, only 5-10 years?]
mau,
You have a point there. But I never found any negativity back then, maybe I filtered those comments. And of course there are always people who compare book vs show and every little detail that change they hate. I never had that issue, I always loved what GoT brough with season 1 till 4 even the big changes. I loved the show version of the HotU for instance, and I can see some book purist having a problem with that. The show was true to itself (with this I mean no continue errors, characters act like from who they are as a character instead of where the plot wants them to go. For instance LF was suddenly stupid in season 5 because the plot asks for that.)
But with my rerun I keep an open mind. Before I read Feast and Dance I think this time I will watch the show first before the books. So I have an open mind and only look at what the show gives me without having the book at the back of my head.
I just finish season 3. I really love that ending, that music with Mysha is just beautiful. One of my favorite music moments of GoT.
But the thing is for me I don’t really care for big plot moments and big battles. I care mostly for the smaller scenes. The plot for me needs to be just as fast as needed to let the character moments keep their worth and moving the story to the next level. Instead of having a season that is mostly about plot and the character moments are almost non-existed.
For instance in the season 3 final we have that moment with Sansa and Tyrion before she knows about the death of her mother and brother. That scene was not needed for the plot, but that moment is so powerful for their characters. Same with Cersei Tyrion scene later in that episode, when they talk about children and Cersei talk about Joffrey as a child. That scene was not needed for the plot, but it was amazing that it was there. That’s where I watch the show for and if they would have skipped those scenes they could even made SoS one season, luckily they didn’t do that. I’m not so into big fancy fights except if it’s connected to character moments (not plot moment, what I mean is defeating the enemy is plot, but for instance Cersei as a mother in 2×09. Or Jon and Ygritte in 4×09 or Jon wanting to live when half an episode earlier he had no problem of dying in 6×09, or in 7×04 where we see Tyrion struggle between Daenerys and his family or in 7×06 where we see Jorah come to terms with his fathers passing etc).
One scene I really loved in season 3 and one of my favorite scenes of season 3 (and not in the book) is Catelyn Talisa scene in 3×02, where she talks about Jon. Powerful scene. Still gets me. (Those damn onion-cutting-ninjas)
Agree on IMDb, it used to be my source for a review on any movie and was almost always reliable but it’s clear that GOT has been subject to a targeted attack. I guess this attack is not a breach of service or easy to prove it’s the same people with multi accounts but you only need to look at the reviews and the fact the vast majority of 1/10 ratings only ever reviewed GOT and nothing else, they are also generic profiles who write only a sentence with their review.
mau,
Sorry too say but this is just bullcrap. I for once think the books will go a different route with Dany and other characters. And yes that alt shift X videos are about the books, not the show. Try to differentiate the 2. The books are not the show and the show not the books.
As for the show. I think it made sense where every character ended. I was one that though that Dany would go beserk in season 8 after season 7 ended if you remember correctly. And for the show I don’t care what will happen in the books, for my part the books end with a love triangle of Euron, Cersei and Daenerys with Roose Bolton in the mix.
But for the show I agree that her change could have had more time, the thing that you also suggest. 2 episodes for episode 4 and 2 for episode 6. So in the end in doesn’t matter how the books will do it. That’s the books. It matters how the show does it. And for me I really loved the end points of the show for the show. Cersei Jaime dying together (only wish a bit more time with Brienne and Jaime), Daenerys going beserk and burning KL, I really love how every Stark and Tyrion ended.
And instead of talking constantly about that I with some others here keep on talking about the books and theories about it, as if that will make a point that you are trying to make, it only shows you are annoyed with others having fun that are still looking forward to the books. Let others have fun.
Mr Fixit,
They destroyed Yara with that fight against Ramsay. They hated skeletons from 410. Hated how Children and Bloodraven looked. Hated that they made Tyrion dumb because he asked for trial by combat before he had champion. Hated they made LF dumb so Sansa can look smart.
Tysha, LSH ofc were major problems. Hated Craster’s Keep plot. They hated that Stannis went to Iron Bank instead of them coming to him like it was in ADWD.
And so on.
🙂
https://watchersonthewall.com/final-twitter-post-part-2/
https://watchersonthewall.com/final-twitter-post-part-1/
https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-8-episode-5-bells-video-recap-roundup/
https://watchersonthewall.com/tweets-part-2/
and so on, after every episode…
If you were at least honest to yourself, before jumping on me with false accusations of “making things up”, I’d be good for you to do the homework first.
I’m not really interested in defending my point of view, but that’s what I mean when I talk about the “site being biased”. There’s a countless army of people like you, who without any hesitation would go straight to attack, rather than ask for evidence or anything to support the claim 🙂
There WERE thousands of famous people/ celebrities tweeting their disappointment with the series. I can’t remember if that has been posted here, it would take me hours to find it, but even Pilou Asbæk (Euron Greyjoy actor) expressed his let-down. I know, who would care about celebrities and their opinion, right? After all, it should be any individual having own opinions as far as they possess the brain. And yet, somehow there are dozens of positive reviews, and hardly any sign on criticism. I haven’t seen a single moderator on that site being actually objectively critical about the season. Obviously, they had some concerns, but all that disappeared in the admiration of D&D writing craft. Fun fact, the very climax has been reached on that sign when Luka (one of the guys who created posts on the site) went fully ad hominem whenever people disagreed. That guy is massively improfessional. Even to the point, that when I posted something very politely in the same thread, he/or someone else, did not allow this post to appear 🙂
I have NEVER seen a video of people who actually used their time to make HUGE compilations with commentary to show people why the fianle of Game of Thrones was out of place. To show how much of the story has been retconned to fit the direction D&D chose. I have never even seen these funny videos that demonstrated contraditcions in dialogs within the same episode. If that’s not bias, then maybe we should change the definition in Oxford English Dictionary.
It’s a mutual adoration circle and nothing educational can taken of here. At least, there is a single person, who after months of consideration changed it’s views entirely.
D&D stated a couple of weeks ago (transscript was on this site) that every season it strayed 10% more from the source material because of the butterfly effect. It was a article as response of the negative twitter account where D&D responded to season 8.
That 10% more is not really that in the end it’s 30%. But it gives away that D&D know that the last season will play out different in the books. Which is already seen by what is released of WoW. around 1/7 of the books is released by GRRM as sample chapters. And only 1 of them all was in the show. The rest was not. That also should give away that things have changed a lot. Theon is with Stannis not with Daenerys. Euron is not with Cersei but raiding and attacking Oldtown. Barristan lives and the battle of Meereen is much bigger and not resolved by Daenerys but by Barristan, Victorion and Tyrion. LSH, Dorne, YG etc all things that are different in books and show.
Daenerys endgame is more a logical thinking that it will be different. If you see the timelines and what other characters are doing. GRRM already stated that Daenerys and Tyrion won’t meet until almost at the end of Winds. Meaning that there is no way GRRM will write her whole journey towards Westeros in just a small part of the book. She will not be in Westeros at the end of Winds. That’s just logical thinking if you see what Dany needs to do before she will move towards Westeros. Volantis for instance is set up as the last big thing in Dany’s Essos journey. But the wall needs to go down in winds. It needs to be a big cliffhanger for an ending of a book instead of halfway through a book. That means the wall will be down before Dany gets to Westeros. But Jon needs to have the dragonglass before the wall gets down, meaning Stannis will take care of that, not Dany in the books. And if the wall falls at the end of Winds that also mean that there is no time for Jon to get Dany north and because they will have a relationship that means Dany needs to go north on her own.
Then take the map of Westeros. Where does Dany’s ship passed through when she gets to Westeros? Through the stepstones. And if Euron wants his hands of a Dragon and he is already at Oldtown it’s logical thinking he will make his move when she enters Westeros.
George already stated that Dance of dragon version 2 will happen in his book. And it will contain 3 dragonriders. But at least one of the dragonriders won’t be a Targaryen. Will it be Euron? I don’t know but it seems the most logical one at the moment.
The Dance of Dragon version 2 is already more build up then the war against the death. So it’s logical that the books will first do the DoD part 2. Does that make it certain that it will go that way, I don’t know I haven’t read the books but it’s the most logical way.
Young Griff will be endgame because of The house of the Undying in the books and Daenerys warnings that she gets of Quiathe, do you think that Quiathe will warn Daenerys for the Griffin if her storyline won’t go into that direction? And if Daenerys can’t be in Westeros in Winds, that means that she will meet JC and YG in Dream of Springs, making him endgame.
As for Daenerys. I don’t know, as I stated that is just speculation. The thing is that we know Daenerys won’t sit on the throne (or the books will let her sit on the throne?). She is responsible for the burning of KL (but if Euron is in play it feels cheap if both Daenerys and Euron are a villain at that moment). She needs to go North. If she have a feud with YG she won’t leave him to go north, or she trust him and she goes north but why come back and destroy him there, if she trust Aegon she trust his claim. How that turns out I don’t know but I don’t see her losing her shit and later Jon trusting her.
I almost finish SoS again and there is lot’s and lot’s of talk about Nissa Nissa, Already 4 or 5 times it’s been talked till now. Stannis talks about it, Mel, Salador Saan.
It will come into play. And if Jon is indeed the PTWP and his love will be Daenerys it makes sense that she will be Nissa Nissa and Jon kills her to form Lightbringer. And if she dies in the north that means the Dance of Dragon V2 will play out before the war against the death.
Now try to think backwards, what if it indeed is true, that Daenerys will not be dark in the books, she is not the one that turn KL to dust but she gets the blame, it’s Euron that controls a dragon by dark magic. She distance herself from the throne, goes north on her destiny. Nissa Nissa happen and Jon kills her for it.
That means what needs to happen is: KL needs to burn. Daenerys needs to get killed by Jon.
But to go by the book that means lot’s and lot’s of fantasy, which they didn’t want to be put into the show. Nissa Nissa and controlling dragons by Dark magic is very fantasy like for the show. So how would you implement those 2 things that need to happen, burning of KL and the death of Daenerys into the show. Right by letting Daenerys do that as the Mad Queen and Jon ending a Tyrant.
And don’t forget that George plan was: Fist war of the 5K, then Invasion of the East. An everything coming together with the war against the death. He maybe changed the last 2, but he also stated many times that he only expended his story but not change the direction it goes to. He’s a gardener.
I also think she will kill Varys, slayer of Lies she is. And she is warned by Quaithe of Varys. The Perfumed seneschal. Most think that’s Varys.
For the books I think Missandei can’t be trusted. Read Barristan chapters. Barristan is scared of that little girl. And I wonder why that is.
Jenny,
The thing is George’s first plan Griff would have been introduced in Feast. Meaning around 40/45% of the book saga. (and if the last 2 books are even that big as Dance around 35% of the Saga). If you look at it that way with written pages and go with George first plan combined Feast and Dance. Then Griff is introduced in the beginning of act 2 of 3 acts. That not too late. The split really messed with the books.
mau,
I loved those changes. Especially Stannis going to Braavos.
My thoughts on fAegon changed considerably once he was left out of the show. I am now firmly of the belief that he won’t last long and is merely there to be a thorn in the side of Cersei/Dany. Having him reach the throne and Cersei escape doesn’t make a lot of sense in the wider story which needs to contract rather than expand. It might well be that Dany torches fAegon and Varys before attacking Kings Landing.
I had very similar feelings to you when S8 aired. There were no spoilers but I went in with firm expectations that Jon would be king, Dany would be a villain, the long night would be a blood bath. I stayed up until 2am to watch the long night but was so disappointed during it at the lack of big deaths and how every main character came through unscathed. From then on all I saw were flaws and whilst still largely enjoying it there was something bothering me. All the online criticism got to me, I felt sad about the show I loved, hardly read Watchers over the summer. It was only when I just did a rewatch did I fully appreciate how good S8 was and how I let bias sway my opinion of it.
kevin1989,
I think all changes made sense for the show, even if they didn’t work that great, like Jaime in Dorne.
Jon Snowed,
It’s funny, I used to think this and changed my mind. When Cersei mentioned the Golden Company back in S7 I became convinced that she had taken fAegons’ plot. I think she will die in KL as fAegon invades, but I keep my options open. With fAegon in Westeros, and Dany held back until the end of winds, the timeline is wonky for me. With any luck, we will find out which of us is right one day lol.
If Griff rocks up and loses to Cersei before Dany even gets there, I will be so so annoyed, that would be the worst outcome as he would be a total waste of time.
Oh I also think Jon Connington will flip out in KL.
kevin1989,
I think of Feast and Dance as one book essentially, that’s book 4 of a 6 book series, so he is being introduced at around 60-70% of the way through. Bearing in mind that I don’t do maths, at all. I am dismal in fact.
Cersei is great character. And Lannisters as well. It just doesn’t make sense that they will be removed by lame Young Griff.
And LF did mention in AFFC War of 3 Queens. From S8 I think it’s clear that’s Dany,Sansa and Cersei.
So Second Dance, War of 3 Queens and War for the Dawn. It’s messy and I don’t think GRRM knows how to balance these plots.
mau,
That’s true, but with the Queen’s, we’ve got Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Margaery, Arianne and even Myrcella and the Queen of Thornes. Asha may even become Queen at some point. I just don’t know. At the time of the quote, he probably knows about Dany, Cersei and Margaery, who are clearly at odds and causing trouble in KL. Messy indeed.
Jenny,
I think that’s a meta line. I don’t know what LF knows but I do think GRRM wants War of 3 Queens. And we did see some version of it at the end of the show.
Cersei is such a perfect antagonist for Dany. I’m sure they will clash in the books if they are ever finished. That doesn’t mean that Dany won’t have conflict with Young Griff as well, but why not both? Why GRRM has to choose? Dany can have a lot of enemies in Westeros. Maybe even High Sparrow.
We know from the show that Lannisters and Starks will see her as the enemy. And then there is Young Griff. White Walkers, Euron. Maybe even more. I do think GRRM wants to make Dany’s invasion as complicated as he can. More complicated than WOT5K for sure.
Having only Young Griff waiting for her is too simple for the books.
mau,
Yes, it foreshadows something, “What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear”. Does that mean that the Queens will fight? Probably, but not necessarily, and Sansa is far from being crowned Queen of anything. I assume that he will hold Sansa back until the others destroy themselves before he moves to crown her. Then we have fAegon in Westeros already, if he is to face off with Dany, what is he doing for the entirety of Winds? I think he will marry Arianne and ally with Dorne, but beyond that I don’t know.
Cersei isn’t in a good position right now because of the Sparrows and the Tyrell’s. In LF’s words ‘You would not believe half of what is happening in King’s Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast’. Great line BTW.
Kevan is gone and Varys is working on the inside for fAegon. Everything you say makes sense, but Dany being so far from Westeros makes it awkward time wise. Perhaps Griff will spend the book gaining allies and whatnot. Then start warring with Cersei towards the end of Winds, and in comes Dany to make it more complicated.
I’d argue that Dany has more at stake personally with Griff as a fake Targ, than she does with Cersei, who was just the wife and mother of Lannister/Baratheon Kings.
That’s kind of the problem with the current story in the book, there are so many characters and vast possibilities. If he needs to start reigning the plot in, the easiest way would be to get rid of the Lannisters or fAegon/Arianne sharpish. If it’s fAegon who goes first, omg what was the point? Dorne was painful enough, make it mean something please George! lol
I must admit I hadn’t picked up on Barristan’s mistrust of Missandei although it’s been a while now since I’ve read Dance of Dragons. I don’t expect Barristan to survive Winds though, I feel he’ll fall early in the defence of Meereen which will elevate Tyrion to a positon of trust (he may even vouch for him depending upon when Dany makes it back from the Dothraki). Either way by end of Winds Dany will almost certainly be heading to Westeros and I cannot believe Barristan will be with her at that point.
Jenny,
FAegon can be causing Cersei problems and whilst Dany heads to Westeros. Cersei is still preparing for her trial so it may work as a distraction and I certainly see Cersei and Euron forming some sort of alliance (which would logically be different to how it happens in the show). My overall problem with FAegon getting the Cersei plot from the show is that he’s not even a POV so you don’t really care about him, if I recall he’s quite cocky when Tyrion meets him so it’s not something readers would be emotionally invested in as they would Cersei who has been a key figure since book one.
I doubt we will ever get the final book but hopefully Winds is released in the next year or two, then we should have a good sense of how true the show is to the source.
Jenny,
You ask what was the point and I have only two words Quentyn Martell 🙂
Jon Snowed,
Yeah, that’s probable, it can go in so many directions from here. fAegon might get a POV in winds under another name, as he has done that a few times before. Your guess is as good as mine.
Jon Snowed,
Now, this annoyed me anyway, if he does it twice (arguably 3 times with Dorne) I don’t know how I will react, not well probably! Oh I do have a fear about it.
But Connington is a PoV, so we follow YG through his PoV (or Tyrion’s earlier).
“The problem with this part is they -probably- both appear in Daenerys’ prophecies.
Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon”.
So Connigton will play a significant role for Daenerys. The mummer’s dragon can be none other than YG.
kathy,
Show me example of hate towards actors.
Oh but it does. Look closely what the text give you. The house of the Undying and Quiathe’s warnings to Daenerys. What’s in it. Stannis, Jon, Jon Connington, (f)Aegon, Victorion, Moqorro, Quentyn, Euron, Tyrion. But who is not in the house of the Undying and in Quaithe warnings: Cersei. Why is that? Because Daenerys won’t ever meet Cersei in the books, because Cersei is already gone the moment Daenerys sets foot on Westeros. If Cersei were suppose to be involved with fighting against Daenerys, she would have been included at least in Quiathe’s warning. But she was not and that should tell the reader something.
And in fact it does rather make sense storywise to let Cersei die at the end of Winds. As you stated the story needs to contract. We already known that Daenerys will fight Young Griff in the Dance of Dragon part 2 as he was in the HotU and Daenerys is warned against him by Quiathe (Why warn against somebody you never meet and not warning against somebody you will meet?). Having Cersei alive at the end of Winds is not contracting, in fact it leave one big storyline open. Having her die contract the story. It ends Cersei’s story. Which let the story contract itself.
Another thing that gives away that Cersei won’t live long is Magy the frogs prohecy. Once all Cersei’s children die, Cersei will weep and once her tears are dry the Volanqar will put his hands around Cersei’s neck and kill her. That means she won’t be queen in the books and she won’t take power. It already contradict the show version because in the show she didn’t weep after her last child died.
And don’t forget the HotU which clearly shows us that Young Griff will be crowned King and cheered on by the people of Kings Landing. So GRRM just forget about the House of the Undying scenes?
Agreed, and as you state before it would be different if Winds was out and you see where everything was heading. And I have a feeling that Martin did tell them “Everything” but in a way that he still has his own twist to tell. We know he told us about the Starks Dany and Tyrion. But do we know that Martin explained LSH, YG, Dorne etc about those secondary storylines. Probably not much. In interviews he even seem very exited to show us those twist, even before season 6 aired, and he didn’t know anything about what was written for season 6.
Jenny,
Explain the flip out of Jon C?
True that is it now, but George first idea was 7 books and he would have been introduced at the beginning of 4. And if 4 was one big book for me it doesn’t change a bit. For me the whole Saga is just one big story, that contains X-amount of pages. And if you put everything after each other, with GoT and CoK being 150 and 250 pages shorter than SoS and DwD it could easily be around 35% of the page count but for fun I going to look it up. What I’m going to do is take one of the combined versions of Feast and Dance to look up where he is seen first.
GoT = 674
CoK = 728
SoS = 924
Feast = 684
Dance = 959
Winds and dreams are told are at least the amount of pages of Dance so I will put that into account.
Winds = 959
Dream = 959
Total: at least 5887 pages
At the end of SoS we have had: 2326 pages (roughly 40%)
if you take into account Feast for dragons. YG is first is seen on page 120. At that moment with the combined version you have read 141 pages of Feast. That’s 261 for feast for Dragons. That’s 2587 pages into the story. Thats 44% into the story. And that’s if Winds and Dream will not exceed Dance with the page count.
But if you look when you first saw YG without knowing it was YG that would be the house of the Undying chapter, which is in fact the moment George decided to introduce us to that story line. Which ended on page 516 of Clash. That’s 1190 pages into the story and that’s already on 20% into the story that George shows us that this story line was coming. Personally I will look at it when it was first introduced, like with Jon’s parentage was introduced already in GoT when George give us the first hint about that storyline and not when George would show us what happened in winds or Dream. We already know since book 1 that that part was coming, like we know since the HotU that the mummer’s Dragon was coming.
mau,
The war of 3 queens is Cersei, Queen Jeyne (Martin has stated that Jeyne will be a character in the prologue in Winds of winter and she will have a huge storyline in winds of winter Queen Jeyne will return) the third is Myrcella, Arianne or Sansa.
Daenerys is not part of the 3 queens storyline. the 3 Queens storyline will take place in winds of winter with cersei, Jeyne and another which is uncertain. Daenerys will not involve in this storyline because she is still in the Red Waste and not meeting Tyrion till the end of Winds (which leaves little room for her to be involved in the 3 queens storyline in winds)
kevin1989,
I love how you get so specific, shall we compromise and say halfway?
The Jon Con thing, is my little theory. Dany heard the bells meaning surrender and torched the city, now that can’t happen in the books, because bells don’t mean surrender, they signal an attack (Dany will still torch the city of course, just without the bells). Now, who in the story is actually haunted by bells? Jon Connington.
‘Last night he’d dreamt of Stoney Sept again. Alone, with sword in hand, he ran from house to house, smashing down doors, racing up stairs, leaping from roof to roof, as his ears rang to the sound of distant bells. Deep bronze booms and silver chiming pounded through his skull, a maddening cacophony of noise that grew ever louder until it seemed as if his head would explode.
Seventeen years had come and gone since the Battle of the Bells, yet the sound of bells ringing still tied a knot in his guts. Others might claim that the realm was lost when Prince Rhaegar fell to Robert’s warhammer on the Trident, but the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince’.
So, if our little theory about fAegon taking KL holds, and the bells toll for Dany’s arrival, who is most likely to flip out first? I’d say Jon Connington. Could be soooooo wrong on this, but it’s a bit of a coincidence if you ask me.
Jenny,
Thanks for the Quote that made me think of which queens were connected to the kings of 5K, it seems LF is referring to that.
Joffrey: Cersei and Margery and Queen of Thornes
Renly: Margery
Robb: Queen Jeyne
Stannis: Queen Selyse and queen Mel.
Balon: Don’t see a queen that could go to war here.
Then we have 5 queens here, the one that seems likely not to happen is Selyse and Mel. Margery is locked up, but maybe her grandma Queen of Thornes take that role. The 2 I’m certain of is Cersei and Queen Jeyne. The third not so much, it’s not Daenerys she can’t be involved yet. QoT makes sense what Cersei has done with Margerey, but it seems that Mace is marching of Storms End why? Arianne seems also possible and the most logical to be the third if you take into account that Martin maybe wants to show his brilliance as “See I already knew when winds ended that Arianne would become queen”, but that means that Sansa’s last chapter of Feast is happen chronically after Arianne be crowned Queen.
Jon Snowed,
But Stannis and Renly, Robb etc weren’t either POVs. The thing is that George never give a POV of the person in power except Daenerys. but we know from the show that she neither will get the IT. That’s why YG is not a POV because he will sit on the IT for a while. Cersei won’t because she is a POV. I think only at the end we finally see a POV character on the throne and that chapter will be his or hers last.
And I agree wish winds was here, I wish we had a sense of what of the show will happen in the books and what not.
kevin1989,
I guess we will never know.
But Robb’s wife is such non-entity in the books that I can’t imagine her being on Sansa and Cersei’s level of importance.
GRRM never said that Robb’s wife will have huge storyline in the books. He said she will appear in prologue. And always characters that appeared in prologue were killed. I wouldn’t be surprised if here it was the same.
Quentyn role was simple, to show what happen in Astapor. And the release of the dragons. And of course it sets Arianne’s storyline of Feast in motion which is connected to Griff which is connected to Daenerys and Cersei in the next two books.
The thing is that Quentyn is probably the reason why Daenerys will believe the message Quiathe gave her. She was warned against him, he sets the dragons loose, Quaithe was right and Dorne can’t be trusted. And than she finds out that Arianne has married Aegon. Conclusion: Quentyn was send to Essos to weaken Daenerys. And how will she treat Dorne after that? But mostly it was there because of Arianne. Personally I wished that Quentyn would just be a secondary character and that we saw him first when he met Daenerys. But it only has one problem: What was his motivation for releasing the dragons, that the reason for his POV and of course background of Dorne.
But I never understood the backlash of Quentyn. Did we go “What about Ned?” Ned was killed the same book he was introduced, are we going there with “Waste of page”. Some character live some die.
Efi,
This and Cersei doesn’t seem to be in any prohecy or vision or warning with Daenerys.
It is true that GRRM said that Daenerys and Tyrion won’t interact before later parts of TWOW. But I think this is very very worrying sign of pacing in the next book and not proof of Daenerys not being part of the war of 3 Queens.
We know from the show how important and complex relationship between Tyrion and Daenerys will be. Even more complex in the books for sure. And if they are not going to meet until the end of the next book what that tells about the future of the story?
When will Dany and Jon meet? And we know how extremely important that relationship is for endgame.
Furure of the books seems very bleak to me.
Jenny,
Was not meant to be snobbish or something. I was always very good in math and because of health issues I can’t do anything with work with it. And I really liked to do a simple mathproblem. So I hope it didn’t rub you the wrong way.
I like you’re theory about Jon Connington. But who do you think are the 3 dragoriders? Same as me or others? I have Dany, YG and Euron.
mau,
She will be, Martin has stated she will be in the prologue but not the POV. And he also stated that a character in the prologue will be important for the whole book. We know that a POV in a prologue always die, the question is who will it be. Blackfish? Some Lannister soldier who will take Jeyne to the Crag.
And we don’t know how important Jeyne will be until the books are out.
And the thing is, somebody doesn’t need to be important in the first 5 books for the last 2 books. Look at Harry Potter. The Deadly hallows were introduced in the last book, Horcruxes in the 6th book. And both were endgame. Same with characters, many important character for the endgame of HP were introduced in the fifth book.
mau,
He stated that she will appear in the prologue, and also stated when ask further that he said she was in the prologue, not that the prologue is her POV.
He also stated that a character from the prologue will be important for winds of winter. And it make sense. Look at all the prologues. Book 2 was introduction of Stannis and Davos. Prologue of book 3 was the WW at the fist of the first man that introduced Sam as a POV and he continued that storyline. Book 4 had the Glass Candle which was important with Sam in the end and for Daenerys in the next book. Dance had Varamyr, which was important for the warging/ WW/ Hardhome and the shadow tower which were revealed at the end of the book are important for the beginning of winds.
kevin1989,
Oh no, not at all, I was joking. I am woeful at maths, so I go with guesstimates. I don’t know if it will play out in the books, but I think D&D may have been inspired by that story and used it as a trigger for Dany in the Bells.
As for the dragon riders, I have to go with Jon/Dany/Euron. Jon because he is a Targ, and Euron with the Dragon binder, he may not actually ride the dragon but he will control or take one out with that horn. Rhaegal will probably die during the long night. I think Quentyn’s fate was there to show us that non Targ’s can’t ride dragons. I wonder if Young Griff will try and fail, basically outing himself as fake. I can’t remember now if a non Targ has ridden a dragon, or someone not from Valyria I should say.
mau,
If winds end with the wall going down, Jon having his dragonglass, the ones who take part in the war against the death in Winterfell. Daenerys leaving for Westeros (I expect her journey in winds will end with her take over of Volantis and ends with a sentence like: And now the dragon is coming home. Cersei defeated and killed. (f)Aegon as King with Arianne at his side (I still believe it’s Sansa and Arianne story will end in winds and Sansa takes her place, especially if Cersei switch her thoughts to Margery and it would be ironic if her first though was right, it was Sansa but probably it stays with believing). Areo Hotah will end as a POV once everything is known of Darkstar and Tyene etc in KL there is no need for him. Sansa either in KL as queen or back at WF. I suspect either way LF will be involved with (f)Aegon. Euron’s plan is set into motion all his steps are played except his last one. Bran is going south again. Arya is in Westeros again. Brienne and Jaime are married and Jaime is going north fighting the Other’s, Brienne with him (executing Stannis I would like that) or she will finally find Sansa.
Dream of Springs: first part.
Daenerys arrival on Westeros. Dance of Dragon part 2. Ending with the destruction of KL defeat of Euron. And Daenerys deciding to go north.
News about the wall being breached. First part of the battle against the death losing at the wall.
Arya?
Pagecount: 250 pages
Part 2: Jon and Daenerys meet, she saves them from the WW in Winterfell. But they still need to flee south towards Greywatch. Daenerys and Jon fall in love. Learning the truth about his parentage from Ashara Dayne. Starks all come together.
Pagecount: 150 pages (400 pages in)
Part 3:
Kings Landing is rebuilding. Jon Connington arrives at the Sorrows. Secondary POV characters ends
Pagecount 100 pages (500 pages in)
Part 4: Battle against the dead winning, Nissa Nissa
Page count 200 pages (700 pages in)
Part 5: What comes after? Ending of very character
Page count 150/200 pages (850/900 pages.
So whatever happened to the idea of Tyrion being the third rider. I felt a lot more foreshadowing in the show of this than the books. I thought the show was almost pushing this idea with how Tyrion dreamed about riding a dragon when he was young and how Tywin was so resentful of Tyrion on the show. In the books I didn’t get as much foreshadowing with Tyrion and the dragons. The show pretty much ignored prophesy story lines. But I really thought Tyrion had a good shot at being the third rider in the show until Viserion got hit by the ice javelin. My guess is that the books will not even resemble the show with the way the wall goes down.
Jenny,
The thing that keeps with me is that Jon Connington who was clearly in love with Rheagar, meaning he is the one that can recollect the best how Rheagar looked when he was YG age. And JC states that YG looks exactly like his father Rheagar. I can see that happen if it would be a Targ but another Targ. But if YG was just a fake of Illyrio and Serra’s child Illyrio wouldn’t state he looks exactly like Rheagar.
Tron79,
True, I even read that in Fire and Blood there is a chapter where it’s explained that Dragon’s won’t cross the wall. That magic doesn’t let anyone move past the wall that is magical. Dragons not going north. WW not going south. It was explained as a invisible barrier that the dragons can’t pass. undead Vyserion won’t be in the books maybe a version of it with Euron.
I finish Storm of Swords again. now time for a reading breath. Those 3 huge books is enough for now with reading. A couple of weeks I will stop reading. Now I will only watch the show. S4 till the end of the show. Will start tomorrow.
kevin1989,
Better get ready for some chicken!
Love the opening of season 4. Two Swords definitely is in my ranking of best episode.
I do think ASOS was probably the most exciting book of the series inho.
S4e1 “Two Swords” last 9:54: One of my nominees for best scene out of all 73 episodes
kevin1989,
He never said that Robb’s wife will be important in TWOW. He just said she will appear in prologue.
kevin1989,
That feels more rushed than anything in the last 2 seasons. No breathing room for anything.
Tron79,
I will be ready for a huge bucket of chicken.
I personally can’t decide between combined (Feast and Dance) and SoS. First time reading I found SoS the most exciting one because of all the action. But later when I could follow many storylines better in Feast and Dance somehow I found those books more excited. The only thing is that’s better with SoS is that it feels like it ends everything in that book for that part. With Dance the excitement is the many theories you can make etc prophecies deciphering etc, but I still enjoy it but after 8 years I’m personally ready for some answers and closure with many mysteries. And I want the new bunch of mysteries to be left hanging for me (after winds).
I really respect George and I believe he will finish the books I have no doubt about that. But now that I read the books again, that longing for winds is maxed out again, also a reason to take a break to lower that a bit. It would be amazing if winds was out in 2020 and I didn’t have too long to wait till my Feast/Dance read and winds.
And the more I read the books I really think George should either have stayed with:
1. The 5 year gap. I wonder which character(s) were the reason why that didn’t work.
2. Not splitting the storyline. I think if he would have stayed with writing chronically and just having a 950 page book for Feast and after that a 950 page Dance that the story would feel better with those 2 books.
mau,
He stated that a character in the prologue will be important for the whole book. Indeed he never stated that that would also be Jeyne. But why else bring her back if not to be important. And we also have the whole Northern Conspiracy that needs a leader, Jeyne would be a nice character of being revealed as the leader.
mau,
Not true at all. Look at SoS. How much is crammed into one book of 900 pages. So much that it needed to be made 2 seasons. On page what takes long is: Talking about the past, dialogue, prophecies etc. What doesn’t take long on page, action. Look at how many pages the taking of Meereen was, or Stannis coming to rescue in 4×10, or the battle at the wall. 2 chapters that needed to be made one whole episode of 50 minutes. Climbing of the wall was also merely 2 pages long.
Take for instance Daenerys chapters in SoS. In 4 episodes she had taken 3 cities. Astapor took 2 chapters. Yunkaii only took one chapter. And Meereen took 1 chapter. The other 2 in that book were her deciding her plan at the beginning to go to Astapor. And the last contained a lot about her deciding to be queen.
Or take Tyrion’s imprisonment in SoS. on page 684. in 735 to 749 (15 pages) he was in his cell and already he get Oberyn as his chapion within one chapter. A chapter later he has his trial and already trial by combat that’s page 789 till 802 (14 pages)
In 29 written pages, he was taken prisoner and already sentence to die, that took 6 episodes in the show. If you take the real book page in account that would be within 119 pages a whole plotline is being told. On page 871 Tyrion is being released. We are made think he is death for around 69 pages.
If you really think what I suggest for Dream of Springs to be rushed, than I don’t wanna know what you think about Storm of Swords, which would contain twice the amount of story that I think will be in Dream of Springs.
When and where he said this?
kevin1989,
GRRM is not as efficient as he was with Book 3. Pacing in the last 2 books is much slower.
Last 30% of AGOT, the entire ACOK and almost the entire ASOS were War of the 5 Kings.
And you think Daenerys’ invasion will be over in just 250 pages? In the show, wich was far less complex, we saw 6 battles in her war for the Throne. You think Benioff and Weiss made her invasion more complicated then GRRM will?
I was aware about splitting AFFC and ADWD, but I wasn’t aware about what you wrote about in your previous post about how the storylines could have been reorganized.
“exciting” may not be the right word exactly. All of the books had exciting elements. I think it was that the POV’s were all characters I was very interested in following, so it was a fast read. There were a bunch of Arya chapters. Sansa’s story developed well. I became a fan of show Sansa in later seasons, so I was actually pretty disappointed in AFFC/ADWD that she was hardly in there. I get why as you explained, but her character development seemed stunted in the books as compared to the show. Bran had 4 chapters! Lots of other major POV’s had good storylines developing in ASOS. I’m also a pretty big fan of AFFC. I am in the minority that I liked it better than ADWD. I was reading them both as one, but I felt like I could dig into those storylines better with Brienne and the Riverlands (and other characters as well like Cersei).
Daenerys’ invasion in the books, if they are ever finished, will be far more complicated than show version. With far more fractions, alliances, betrayals, battles, twists and turns. It will be far more complicated then WOT5K. It won’t be reduced to one battle at KL.
kevin1989,
So long as Jeyne is alive, and there is the faintest hint that her child is Robb’s, she has to die. Otherwise the Lannisters will never be sure that they’ll hold the North via f!Arya. Jeyne is so gone even if her parents tried to convince Jamie (? could be mistaken) that the child is not Robb’s, but one of her rapists’.
Rickon will play some part in the North. He won’t be just killed off like he was in the show. So another complication for GRRM, another reason why he can’t finish his books.
Then you have Aegon, and Cersei and High Sparrow. High Sparrow won’t just die in explosion like he did in the show. Then White Walkers. And very complicated political situation in the Vale, and Dorne and Iron Islands. And all those things that were introduced in Oldtown. And Braavos. And million characters in Meereen, again far more complicated than the show and it will need more complicated ending of that storyline.
And then Bran who needs to be king at the end. Not to mention all those characters that are still alive in the books and were killed in S5, like Stannis and Myrcella and Selmy and Shireen,…
Book story is far from over.
Tron79,
I never really got on board with that, I think it stemmed from the idea that he was a secret Targaryen, as Aerys had a thing for Joanna iirc. All the talk from Tywin about whether he was actually his son or not (I hate Tywin, not sure if I’ve mentioned it) seemed to point towards him not being his son. There is even a theory about Jaime/Cersei being secret Targ’s, but really, how many can there be?
Tyrion does love dragons though, perhaps he will form a bond with one, or it represents his future affiliation with Dany. I don’t think he will ride one, only Jon will, and Euron might control one through magic.
As for the wall, I’m thinking this is a Bran thing, with Cold Hands and the Eyed Crow. The horn of winter is another possibility, I can’t see the dragons going north of the wall, and I think the expedition to capture a wight was a show invention. In Season 1 or 2, they sent Thorne to KL with a hand, and it rotted by the time he got there, now winter is close, so perhaps wights can survive south of the wall without the WW’s being around, but I don’t think so.
Interesting I never thought about it like that Kevin, although I do feel Ned as a POV is in a position of power being the Warden of the North. Meanwhile Renly is very much a minor character, Robb too in the books – a show change/improvement which made the Red Wedding much more brutal. I guess I have the same feeling about Stannis because of the above, I just don’t see him making it out of Winds alive as we’ve discussed.
Regarding Bran ending as King, I think that’s about as close to a slam dunk given at this stage as R+L=J. Isaac even confirmed that GRRM had told him he’d be King in the end so the fan theories about him remaining in the tree are effectively proven wrong. I’m sure there will be some small changes vs the show but I’d be amazed if he’s not heading back to Winterfell by the end of Winds.
Yeah, I think Tyrion as a possible Targ was more of a show thing. They really pushed the idea (imho) in the show. But I’m not sure if I agree about Euron riding in the books.
And I’m confused about the magic of the wall issue. In both show and book Othor gets reanimated as a Wight while he is in Castle Black. I never understood how that could happen if the magic of the wall prevents it. Perhaps if he was already reanimated he wouldn’t have been able to cross the wall? Is the tunnel under the wall OK? If so, Coldhands (Uncle Benjen) could have come back through the tunnel. I don’t quite get the “rules” of the magic. Othor seemed to be a big hole in the idea that there couldn’t be Wights south of the wall (while the wall was standing and the spells remained in place).
Also, in the books Dany gets blisters from riding Drogon even with her resistance to fire. Drogon’s scales sound like they are hot to the touch. I can’t imagine that a non Targ will be able to survive the ride. I’m not sure how even Jon will survive riding, since he still stretches his hand from the burns he received while fighting Othor. It gets curiouser and curiouser the more you think about it… but I do think too hard sometimes…
mau,
https://grrm.livejournal.com/328931.html?thread=18015203#t18015203
Comment section:
Not at all. If they are alive in the books, they are alive in the books, and may well turn up again. Irri (and Jhiqui) is still serving as Dany’s handmaid, Rakharo remains one of her bloodriders, Mago will definitely show up again. You will learn the fate of Pyat Pree in WINDS. The Thirteen are still one of the factions contending for power in Qarth. You may see more of Alayaya and Chataya as well, and you will definitely hear more of Jeyne Westerling.
Take this one as a reference:
https://winteriscoming.net/2016/02/26/small-council-what-character-is-involved-in-george-r-r-martins-new-winds-of-winter-twist/
A character will be important in winds that cannot be important anymore in the show. George rr martin stated this around season 4. Season 5 wasn’t written yet, so it couldn’t be about any feast or Dance characters (and even more because GRRM didn’t involve in season 5 at all he stated many times that he doesn’t know where D&D will bring the story there). That leaves little ideas who that could be about. It could be LSH but how did GRRM know that they wouldn’t bring her in season 5 or 6?
It’s a character that’s dead on the show (till season 4) but alive in the books. Dothraki lords or other characters doesn’t matter because they could alter the storyline for it. But having Jeyne alive and deliver Robb’s baby, is something the show could not do, Talisa is truly death. And the thing that makes this more logical is that if Stannis retakes WF, who can make a lot of havoc about his claim? Who could turn the north against Stannis? Robb’s baby.
mau,
I think YG will take the invasion part for Daenerys. I think Daenerys will start the invasion but it will be dealt with more straightforward. Why? Because in CoK there were many storylines. Every character has it’s own storyline except Sansa and Tyrion who you could maybe say are both KL storyline. In Dream it will be 2 storylines. The war of the throne, and the war of the north. And I expect he will tell that story more like GoT more streamlined. (And I expect that he kill a lot of characters.)
And 250 pages is pretty long if it will be only about the invasion. Count Daenerys storyline about taken 3 cities, that is maybe 120 pages.
The thing is that the Wo5k covers not only the Wo5k. It covers much more storylines. And also it begin in CoK and ended in SoS. Daenerys invasion is already busy since season 1. That’s not a 250 page storyline. That’s a 7 book storyline. And once her dragons are grown there is no need for her to play hide and seek. If she wants it she takes it. Her whole Dance storyline is about her learning that she should be a dragon and just take it.
And pace is something strange, if you go more into character moments like Dance, with thoughts etc you get long chapters then 5 chapters could just progress a little. But with action like Dany taking cities you could take a city in one chapter.
Tron79,
True. Especially the ammount of POVs.
mau,
That’s because many still think her story is about the IT in the books. It’s not. She goes to westeros because of the IT, but her destiny is the war against the death. Even in Feast Aemon tells Sam that Daenerys destiny is the war against the death and she needs to go north. He also left a page for Jon to read (probably about the war against the death.
Which fractions? If YG wins, he reunite the kingdoms, HotU already told us that. Everybody love him and cheer for him. He will unite Dorne, Tyrells, the Eyrie, riverlands. The North will be the north. Cersei will be defeated, did I miss a kingdom? whoever is going to side with Daenerys if Aegon is crowned as the son of Rheagar? Who will believe Daenerys that he is fake because of some warnings she has in her dreams? And which kingdom will follow her with the army she brings, Unsullied and Dothraki. In the show Dorne because of revenge against Cersei, same with the Tyrells, but YG will deliver that already for those kingdoms.
Efi,
The theory is that Jeyne is plan B for the lannisters. Jeyne will go north reclaiming the throne. But her baby will be taken by the Lannisters, so Jeyne will give the north back to the crown. So baby Robb will be in the hands of Cersei if that plan succeeds.
And many think the POV is about Jeyne getting rescued by the blackfish or LSH.
mau,
Agree that Rickon play a bigger role in the books. Theory is that Rickon is already in the hands of Manderly, and Davos is send to Skagos on a goose chase so Stannis is weaker.
And question do you really believe the fantasy that you keep rehearsing why the books aren’t finish? I think it’s time to get back to reality and listen to GRRM himself why his books are late.
And there is enough time, look at SoS how much that covered.
And Bran will be king but not of the 7K the big spoiler is already in his last POV chapter.
Jon Snowed,
And there is a huge theory that Quentyn is alive, I try to find the interview with GRRM where he stated that a character that people think is did, will be shown as alive in Winds. Many think that’s Qyentyn and that the tattered Prince had died in his stead.
Tron79,
I also wonder that about Othor.
Tron79,
Ah, Victarion is another character I hate, I know that we are supposed to dislike him, but he’s not particularly interesting to me as of yet, so I keep forgetting about him lol. Maybe it will be him, it has to have something to do with that horn. He’s trying to marry Dany isn’t he? Instead of fetching her for Euron? I hope she just lights him up.
I don’t think Dany resistant to fire, it was a one off event in S1 (and the show made it an ongoing thing) I think you are just supposed to wear gloves and things. Their connection to dragons is something to do with the blood of old Valyria. Maybe people who have read Fire and Blood know more about this, I haven’t read it so I don’t know much about the dragon – dragon rider connection. I think like in the show, one of the dragons will be manipulated in some way to get around this, they may not actually ride it, but control it from the ground maybe?
I have no idea about the wall magic either! It goes right over my head, the rules aren’t clear to me at all. I guess he was just dead when he got taken to Castle Black, and could be reanimated due to his proximity to the others. The magic seemed to wear off after a certain time/distance, perhaps that will change when winter comes, and obviously will when the wall comes down. I remember a theory that Bran crossing the wall would somehow break the wall’s magic, so I just go with that, like when the NK touched him, him touching the wall with 3EC powers is bad. I sometimes wonder if GRRM knows the answers to this stuff yet, because blimey it’s complicated!
I feel like I am disagreeing with you a lot lately Kevin and it’s not intentional honestly:) However the character people thought was dead but will be revealed to be alive is the Hound/Sandor Clegane not Quentyn. I’m fairly sure D&D confirmed this in an interview but also stated GRRM hadn’t decided what to do with the character at that time only confirming that he will be returning in Winds.
Jenny,
Didn’t Dany at least partially withstand fire in the book version of the flight on Drogon from the fighting pit. It’s a few years since I read the book (I keep meaning to do the tandem read to see if I like the two later books in ASOIAF more that way) but I recall some of the people thought she had been consumed by Drogon breathing fire but she survived (even if she got blistered) and flew off to meet with the Dothraki again (and that awful [to me at least] description of the loose bowels).
kevin1989,
You are in complete denial when it comes to GRRM’s working ethics.
He can’t finish the story in just two books unless he radically changes the pacing of the story.
Jon Snowed,
Well I also disagree with my own statement and why, because Jon snow is dead but will come back alive. But GRRM maybe has already spoiled that Quentyn is alive, I put it in spoilertags, it’s about a sample character of winds he has deleted:
But why do I think GRRM spoiled the return of Quentyn with this. Because those videos have been urged (By grrm or his publisher I don’t know) to become private and not to be shared. While he doesn’t have a problem with the sharing of Damphair chapter. And that making private of those video’s was done after people made the assumption that
And also how can Quentyn look at his arms and sees them aflame and that it hurts (which most of the time takes 2 seconds at least) when a dragon put his face to flame. Wouldn’t his eyes be burned within 2 seconds.
And also Quentyn is known for jumping father than anyone. That gave him the name Frog.
He is probably dead, but I would like him to be alive.
And no worries I just found it fun to theorize things, even when 90% of those theories I have will probably not have a single truth to it.
But about the hound, personally I’m a bit against the idea that GRRM meant the hound. Why would he keep making us exciting about “A character you think is death, will be alive” in a way that he wants us to be excited about it and found out. Even after the hound being alive is already a huge theory since 2005. It would be a bit like “Yeah we know already for 11 years, nothing to be exciting about.”
The way he talks about it in interviews really makes me believe it’s somebody we won’t suspect.
The only thing is, that I hope I won’t find “dead just kidding not dead” will be a bit done at the end of the series. LSH, Jon, the hound who else?
I’d trade all of this for a good story that make sense, which we didn’t get in the last 3-4 seasons of GoT.
aiad,
Yes we did.
kevin1989,
Nowhere in there did Martin say a character in the prologue will be important for the whole book.
Dame of Mercia,
I… have no idea lol. I seem to remember a few outlandish tales being told about her escape, so didn’t really pay much attention. I think Targ’s have been killed by their dragons before, so if she is resistant to heat, it’s unique to her I think. I think she and Jon together might be AA, so she could be special, but I seem to remember GRRM saying that the pyre was a one of magical event. Don’t quote me or anything lol
Just reading it recently I would answer yes. Her hair burned off again. She has some blisters but i thought grrm inferred that she at least had some resistance to the heat which allowed her to survive the flight. Her hair burned but she didn’t seem to have burns on her body other than her hands blistering some. I love Jenny’s idea of dragon gloves though!! I’d buy some.
kevin1989,
But Jeyne is returned to her family. She doesn’t need rescuing.
The character that will play a grand role is more likely Pate; already an introductory chapter, replaced by Jaquen (? I think). He’s close to Sam. I suppose he’ll lead him to some discovery, and he’s already helping Sam.
It’s connected to Jon.
A good question is what does the HoBaW have to do with the Citadel.
Two things come to mind: first, that it’ll have sth to do with the fight against the Others. Sam is supposed to discover something useful in those books indeed.
Second, it may play out as in the show, Sam finding out about Rhaegar’s marriage to Lyanna.
Which is surprising, but I’m one of those who think that D&D used in the series more stuff from the books than we imagine. That’s what made the show so good imo. I’d number among these apart from this detail, the significance of the Targaryen knife that Arya has, the “fiery hand” in ep. 3, perhaps even the blowing up of the Sept and Daenerys’ burning of the khals.
If Pate is connected to sth like that, it is indeed a game-changer in ASoIaF, because Jon being a legitimate son of such a marriage adds volumes to his significance in-universe, his credibility and his rights (for example, on Dragonstone; or on the IT). Even if Jon is a male heir the therefore come on top of others’ claims, his bastardy smears his reputation (on account of the prejudices that go with it) especially in comparison to Daenerys. If that is lifted, though, everything changes.
Tron79,
They could be yours for the bargain price £99.99
Jenny,
(CC: Tron79, Dame of Mercia),
I think the pyre was a one-time incident and Dany’s not generally fire resistant:
GRRM from So Spake Martin, November 5, 1998:
This snippet from a March 18 1999 chat transcript linked from a 1999 So Spake Martin on westeros.org:
Jenny, what is your 🙂 or 🙁 review for HDM this week?? 🙂
Efi,
I think the key thing is what people perceive and believe to be the truth. In regard to people and human wars, the truth people believe is not always genuine — but is sometimes what is most convincing (especially before DNA testing. Westeros’s version of DNA testing is a visual hair colour assessment. Had Joffrey/Myrcella/Tommen been born with black hair, would the truth of their true parentage even be suspected?). I know we’ve had this conversation many, many times before but for Jon’s right to be recognized, I think people need to believe the story of R+L=J is true — which is a hard sell, especially since he fails the visual testing.
However, in the eyes of the gods and prophecies, R+L=J may make all the impact in (their) world.
Young Dragon,
That’s why I stated I will look for that interview that he gave about that 😉 But I’ve been a bit busy today with work and other things. I read it a week or 2 ago so it doesn’t have to be hard to find again but it was an interview of a couple of years ago. But I will look it up.
Jenny,
There’s a nice theory why Dany was fire proof and it had to do with magic that Mirri Maz duur performed. (And it’s a theory that connect Doran’s plan with Illyrio’s plan wiyh Dany, with Aegon with the Lannisters, with Marwyn.
Jenny,
Awesome, I’ll add them to my holiday wish list!
Adrianacandle,
🙂 🙂
Oh and thanks, that is the quote I was thinking of!
I can’t find that interview, so for now just ignore the statement of me stating a prologue character gets a big part in the story. If I ever found the interview I will share it, and else I will admit that I remember it wrong and probably connected some things that shouldn’t be connected.
But as for the story. If Jeyne will be in the prologue, it doesn’t really make sense if she will not be involved in the story, why else put her in the prologue. The big theory is that
Jeyne will be freed by the blackfish. And they will use her, (or if she never gave birth the child of Edmure and Roslin) as Heir of Robb, to reclaim the King in the north position and rally the north behind them. And this could fall in the line of the storyline that George though of after writing Dance of Dragon and that he will go into that direction. For Sandor to be that chracter doesn’t make sense, in Feast (published in 2005) he already showed that he has a plan with Sandor’s character. I can’t think of a single storyline that only Sandor could forfill and not say Arya. Clegane bowl could also be given to Arya for instance.
Efi,
I agree that Pate is important, but GRRM already confirmed that Jeyne will be in winds prologue but not the POV itself. So why show her even in the prologue if not for a big storyline.
And yes she is brough back to her father, while being brought there by Lannister man. How can for instance Blackfish say that the Queen of the North is free while being brough back home by Lannister man. Does it not make more sense that they want 1. Their queen back. Or 2. Killed because of treason of going back to the Lannisters.
And the thing is whatever happen in the prologue will be important for the saga, either in Winds itself or in dream of springs. All the prologues served as prologue to the story. (Introduction of Stannis, Attack of the WW, The citadel storyline with the glass Candles and Sam going there, Dance shows us a prologue about how staying alive after warging works, which is important for Bran and Jon storyline and also warging is shown to every Stark that still has a living Direwolf). And the second thing is that it’s always a game changer chapter. So putting that together, I wonder why it’s important to have Jeyne back and not just in a chapter but in the prologue, and what gamechanger will that chapter bring. And until now the only assumptions I read online is that Jeyne will be taken by the blackfish or somebody else, to serve as a plot to crown her queen. I can’t think of another reason why to bring back that character and less why she is so important to being seen in the prologue.
And Jeyne needs to be rescued if they did with Jeyne the same thing they did with Roslin. Keeping their baby hostage so the parents behave. So is it so out of option that the freys or lannisters have taken jeyne’s baby.
YAY! Thanks! Going to be a good night! 🙂
Oh! I listened to this yesterday and thought you might be interested in this very recent interview with Philip Pullman and Anne-Marie Duff. Pullman makes some comments about his writing process and working with adaptations (scripts, having to reign in designers, what scenes he wished were in the movie, his vision vs. the adaptation’s vision, et.c) and I like what Duff said about the archetype of “orphaned” children (or children who grow up without parents in fiction) and what it means for Lyra.
Boohoo. If this is how EC is welcomed in supermarkets, imagine what it must be for say, Sophie Turner. I mean, come on. Danyerys is the most beloved character on this show.
It seems you haven’t watch 8×05 and 8×06. But I will not spoil it for you 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Adriana, what do you think about the Dornish masterplan video I posted? Oh and I still need to watch your video of X Shift Alt.
Write “Emilia Clarke” or “Daenerys” in the title and you know the post will pass 200 comments…easy.
We still love you Emilia!
#ShesMyQueen
#NowAndAlways
I haven’t seen it yet! I’ll watch and share my thoughts with you 🙂
Somehow, someway, I have a feeling that no one really needs to feel sorry for Sophie Turner…or Emilia Clarke for that matter.
It’s sad they have to put up with this, but in all honesty, if this is the price for being a famous movie star and multi-millionaire, then I’d say they have it pretty good. i mean, I get shit from some of the people who work at the grocery store and I’m not even famous 🙂
kevin1989,
I think it’s a cool theory! But it gets a little bit tin-foily in some places — like Jaime’s hand. Roose explained the reasons why Vargo had Jaime’s hand chopped off (in the following quote from a conversation between himself and Jaime) and it seems to make sense. I don’t think it’s anything to do with the Martells or what agenda they may have:
If I remember right, Vargo was pretty against the idea of a House Bolton-Lannister alliance and feared Tywin Lannister, so I think the bolded makes sense as motives for Vargo’s actions.
It’s a cool theory! But I think it makes some leaps.
Iul,
EC is always amazing. She comes over as somebody who is always ready too cheer up a room and making other people feel good while she still battle with her own health issues.
Adrianacandle,
Same here, tomorrow I’m free and luckily no need to go to the store, I’ve already done grocery shopping so I have time to watch the clip when I wake up, Right now I will probably fall asleep halfway through and I found that a waste, better wait till I can watch it awake.
“Can we please look inside your bag Mr Derp?”
Just kidding I couldn’t resist to write what popped inside my head when reading this. But you’re right. And many jobs have the part that bosses yell at you for not doing your job etc. But the thing is, I think if people would just talk about her acting that EC could understand that she would not win over everyone, but attacking somebody personal instead of their profession is pretty hard to live with. If we had issues in a Grocery store we go to another. But how is that for instance for EC, there’s a big chance that in the next Gorcery store another overreacted fan is being the counter.
But I think that Grocery worker had luck with her supervisor, with many supervisors that could mean a big warning if you talk like that too customers.
Did you go to the Best Grocery Store In the World (ie. Albert Heijn)? ;0; Their To-Go section and their juice and their bread… the best things in the world… (pesto pizza! The apple sundried tomato salad! Chocomel!) The only thing is I can’t find is truly sour salt & vinegar chips at any place that I’ve been to in Europe! (The vinegar in the salt & vinegar chips I’ve found in the Netherlands is more of a sweet taste, like balsamic vinegar) My Canada-born Friesland friend says really sour tastes aren’t really preferred in the Netherlands. Is that true??? She is also a salt & vinegar chips addict like me and we have hunted limited parts in France, Belgium, and Germany for sour sour but no luck! But we didn’t look very hard… Like one or two stores before we give up and go for fries.
I’ve fallen asleep half-way through clips, TV shows, movies, etc. too XD Sometimes, I’ll wake up with a computer on my chest 😉
Agreed with your words about EC! <3
Adrianacandle,
I agree there, but overall with maybe a little bit of adjustments it makes sense. Especially the part about the Brave Companions being very into the seven but later raiding septs. it feels too made to make sense.
Adrianacandle,
I went to “Jumbo”, it’s the only good one around where I live. The “Albert Hein” that’s closest to my home is pretty bad (another good but I won’t travel 20 minutes with the bus to get there).
Many people like sweet taste that’s right. Personally I like more sour or bitter tastes. The decision to lower the sugar in my coffee, no sugar in tea and not that much soda (maybe once in 2 a 3 weeks a bottle) really helped to not favor sweet taste.
Luckily I will always be awake when behind a pc. The downside is that that results into becoming a zombie-like figure the next morning when the alarm ring.
kevin1989,
I think some of it makes sense and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Martells are trying to plan a Lannister overthrow! I also think if we get too many plots, too many conspiracies at the same time, the story will look less like a braid woven of all these storylines eventually coming together and more like a… knot…
Then again, it makes sense to theorize all of these different ideas because it’s been over eight years since the release of the last book and in that time, its entire televised adaptation has started and ended (okay, the first season aired a month before A Dance With Dragons was released but still, for the sake of drama, my point ;D).
I’ve been to a few Jumbos!! I think, no matter where you go in the Netherlands, there’s always going to be the best bread and juice!
Thanks for confirming about the sour-sweet! I think it’s always healthier to be on the not-so-sweet side of things but while I love love love a sour sour sour salt & vinegar chip, I wouldn’t say no to an entire cup of sugar in my tea 😉
So true 🙁 I wish there was a hack for sleep but I find that it always eventually catches up to you and when sleep deprived enough, the air itself starts turning into colours…
Here’s a short video I just made of some of my favorite Arya photos from season 8.
I have more that I like, but these were readily available at the moment…
I’m thinking most of these are in the Helen Sloan book. I was just reminding my wife again that it’s on my holiday list….
I’m also hoping for the 4K DVD set for Season 8. It’s available for pre-ordering. I’m thinking this will be the best quality for The Long Night without the streaming compression.
This is great, thanks for sharing! 🙂
I was lucky enough to win the box set of S1-7 from WOTW last year, so I am just going to buy S8 at some point to complete it. A couple of those books are so tempting.
Tron79,
I second Pigeon — thank-you for that video! 🙂
Are you talking about the costume and art books? Omg, I’ve been sitting on my hands to avoid buying it until my bank account is healthier!! *0*
(One year, I made myself a recreation of the bubble dress from Wicked — here are photos of the Broadway dress for reference! …Did a photoshoot with the dress in Banff during -30 weather. Arms turned blue. Bumped forearm against tree, couldn’t feel it. Worth it!)
Yes! I don’t really have room for massive books at the moment, or the funds, but, but….🤪
Oh, I bet the photoshoot turned out to be stunning. Man, I haven’t been to Banff since I was 10!!! ROAD TRIP. Good ol Canadian winters…I find that if I injure myself at those temps, I either don’t notice it until later, or it hurts 100x more than is necessary. Like when a horse steps on your toes. Or frostbite on the nip nops. However, right now it’s raining and +5C because Saskatchewan. 😆
Pigeon,
Yes, yes!! The full-colour pages, the hardcover, the smell of new book, the gloss of it all, the size, the weight, that I learned how to cut with lasers so now I can build a book shelf *just for them*…. vs. 💸💸💸💸
The shoot turned out well! If you (or anyone else here) is ever interested in seeing it, let me know! 🙂 I think Banff is largely unchanged since you’ve been last! Maybe a new Tim’s or two (I got changed in a Tim Horton’s bathroom — went in normal, came out sparkle!) and yes to being injured at that temperature! You really don’t feel it!… Until much later and yes, 100x more painful… so much more painful.
5C seems pretty mild for late Nov 😮It’s 2C in Calgary right now at 1 AM, which is practically springtime.
Oh, I would love to see your shoot! 😊 Yes it’s so mild…last week was way colder, of course. My sister lives in Calgary, so I know how quickly things change through there too! 😆
Stopping for a dark roast double double is pretty much my incentive to drive to work. Ha!
The smell of new books….ahhhhhh.
Oh, that’s my motivation too — a steeped tea double double!! 😀 <3
Okay! Email me at (throawayawoo1067) (at) gmail and I'll send you the link to the photos from my regular address if that’s okay! 🙂 (This is the email I post publicly to avoid my email being used for phishing by spam bots x_x)
Yes! It sounds like you are experiencing the weather mood swings too ;; -22C one day, 5C the next.
Adrianacandle,
I switch to the steeped tea when I’m house-sitting for a friend a few times a year. I’m not quite sure how or why I started that tradition with myself, but it stuck!
Pigeon,
Me too! I find it so nice, comforting, and creamy! 🙂 🙂 They do a decent Pumpkin Spice Latte too! I have not been brave enough to try Tim Horton’s poutine though…
I am just watching Thronecast after the finale – it’s very good. The general consensus amongst the guests is that the finale was beautifully shot and tied together. They recognise that the last three episodes have been very divisive but the majority still love it. Key case in point is that Al Murray who is a big fan of the show questioned how anyone didn’t see Mad Queen Dany coming, he expected and loved the execution. Another guest on the other hand is a massive Dany fan, he wanted her to rule and reject the fire and blood mentality so he was really disappointed on how it went down. There in lies the problem and the divisiveness about S8. It’s largely on a par or better than earlier seasons but the fact one of the most popular characters subverted the expectations of many within her fan base caused a huge negative backlash. It isn’t to say there were not gaps in writing, pacing, stretching of plot armour but they were not that excessive either if you re-watch objectively.
Same Dany fan also tried to justify her actions (this is a common trait) and even suggested she was right to do what she did.
Adrianacandle,
It’s time that George will release winds. We’re ready George,We’re ready.
About sugar in the tea. Just go with half what you normally drink, it will take a couple of weeks (maybe sooner) when you find that much better. After that again half or just stop drinking sugar, at the beginning it taste strange, but after a while you state the tea better and you starts to dislike sugar. Couple of years ago I put 2 big cubs in my tea, now if even a pinch of sugar is in it I find it disgusting.XD
Tron79,
I like it, thanks for sharing 😀
Jon Snowed,
Thanks for sharing those video summaries I really like reading it 😀
I’m currently at 4×04. Love Dany’s take-over of Meereen. Beautifully shot and written. After I finish that when my cup of coffee is ready, I will do my housechores and after that watching Adriana’s theory clip 😀 Nice busy day with lot’s of GoT.
kevin1989,
I have also gone sugar free, I actually went cold turkey, because I heard it takes about 2 weeks to get used to it, and eventually I’d hate the thought. I wanted to test the theory. LIES! I would have happily added sugar 2 years after, even now, 6 years on, I can have the occasional sugar in my coffee, but in tea I’d gag.
Adrianacandle,
Thanks, I will have a look at this. Did you like the episode? Things have really slowed down, and it’s better for it I think.
Jenny,
I coffee I can’t do without. But it’s a half a teaspoon max.
Adrianacandle,
I watch the video of the Maesters Conspiracy, and I like it. But as he states there is little too no evidence right now for it. But I would like it too happen somehow. But more that it’s revealed very fast in winds with Euron attacking.
And I don’t trust Marywn.
Jenny,
I really enjoyed it! The end of the episode always comes way too soon for me and I’m really excited to see next week’s!
kevin1989,
Oh totally, there is little to no evidence! But yeah, I think it’s a cool idea that some of these maesters are their own little faction.
The Aemon part is the part that confuses me the most because these two parts directly conflict with each other: how Maester Aemon ends up at Castle Black. Aemon himself and (as AltShiftX points out) the official World of Ice and Fire app say that it was Aemon’s choice. However, Marwyn’s quote says otherwise, that he was sent there because of his Targaryen blood. Did the maesters make it feel like a choice to Aemon? But the maesters were going to force him there anyway?
Questions… 🙂
But yeah, Marwyn. I think Sam feels uneasy too.
Thanks for the tips! Yet my love for sugar is so great… I used to (“used to”) eat raw ice tea crystals straight from the canister… drink soda through a twizzler… combine butter and sugar and make that into a nice dip for a twizzler…
God, I’m gross XD
Emilia Clarke is sooo funny… Did she ever do anything with Ricky Gervais? If not, they should. I could just hear them laugh about anything for hours…
kevin1989,
Damn I see know that I answer that as a caveman: I coffee I can’t do without.
Adrianacandle,
True just like the Dornish masterplan, it make sense if it happen then it’s: I should have known. And if it doesn’t happen it also make sense.
Well I think the Maesters can manipulate other’s and Aemon was young and probably still a bit naive. And if its true the Maester’s conspiracy that means they even manipulate the best players like Tyrion, Varys, LF. So it makes sense that they also could manipulate Aemon.
But if the Dornish masterplan theory is true it’s already make sense why Marwyn said that. To make sure he get his hands on a dragon. Let’s look at it this way: We already know that the Maesters want to end magic and the dragons. If Marwyn wants a dragon (for Doran or himself) he cant let that happen. That means once he sets sail towards Daenerys he needs somebody in the citadel who has his best interest at heart, keeping magic alive. So Marwyn played on Sam’s emotion about Aemon. Sam will now be weary about the Maesters, keep an eye open and maybe even try to find some hidden secrets at the citadel. And all in the hope that Sam will bring this information out in the open or at least make sure that the Maesters can’t succeed with their plan.
But too think about it, are the Maesters really that evil for wanting to stop magic, the thing that is horrible on many levels:
1. It bring dark things like White Walkers, dragons, krakens and other horrible things, it also can control people or use too watch others, warging etc.
2. It also slow down progression. Magic can take care of many things (Even it’s only for the lords. It also is dangerous if you have made some progression technological, dragons can undo it, destroy it if the king doesn’t want to go that way, or other ways of manipulation.
But still I would love too see a sequel-show years in the future where magic is in a world like us.
Adrianacandle,
Ice tea crystals? explain.
You like butter and sugar together? Well I have a nice dutch receipt. It’s called “Wentelteefjes”. It’s a bit like french toast but better. You need old slices of bread for better taste, if I made it I sometimes if I have too fresh bread let the bread lie on the counter for 3 hours that it turn a bit old.
It depends on the size of the bread but what you do is the following:
– Take a bowl, put in some raw eggs. (With the bread I use it’s most of the time 1 egg for 2 slices of breath but it can be different)
– Put in some cinnamon (this is what’s not in french toast)
– Normally you put the sugar on the bread at the end, I personally add it too the mix, I like that better.
– A pinch of milk. Stir everything together.
Take out a frying pan, make it warm. Best is too put it on the lowest flame it can have (better take time than get it burned). Put in a bit of butter in the pan, let it melt. Put a slice of breath into the eggmix and put it in the pan. Let sit on both sides till it’s baked.
My personal version (not really I got it from somebody else). When one side is done, flip it over and put some cheese on it (Dutch cheese is pretty good I don’t know if the cheese you have in your country taste good on it, would not put things like cheddar or mozarella etc on it. Just normal yellow cheese like “Gouda cheese”). And when the second side is done the cheese is a bit melted.
kevin1989,
Nice speculations!
I think Aemon was in his 30s when he joined the Watch? Maybe it still was Aemon’s idea and the maesters knew how he felt but were prepared to force him there in any case?
But the way Marwyn talks, it seems like Aemon being at the Wall was something they did have a direct hand in, which is strange because by all other accounts, Aemon’s decision was totally voluntary.
But yes, and the maesters would be in good positions to influence the lords and ladies of Westeros because they offer council and advice to the lords/ladies they are serving.
How come Marywn would want to get his hands on a dragon? It seems like he was against the return of dragons?
I think Sam is definitely feeling uneasy and unsettled about his experience at the Citadel but I also think Marwyn would be hinging a lot on Sam, a stranger to him, acting in the specific way Marwyn needs him to. So so many things could go wrong here — Sam siding with the maesters (I doubt this), Sam not finding anything out, Sam not acting on any discovered info due to fear.
No, I don’t think being opposed to magic is evil and you’re so right, magic can be used for ill-gain, but I think magic is also needed to defend the realm against the Others. Magic isn’t safe but it’s needed against other magical threats. Magic is part of the make-up of this universe, sort of like its own force of nature — and like a force of nature, it’s dangerous and unpredictable, rising and falling on its own. The maesters can’t get rid of it/control it completely and it seems like that may be one of their aims? Or to force it back into dormancy. Yet, it is needed against things like the Long Night.
Ice tea crystals are this type of powder you pour into a vessel (like a jug or a glass), add water, stir, and then you have iced tea! It’s basically flavoured sugar ;D
And thank-you SO MUCH for that recipe! I’m saving that! It sounds just like something I’d love!! I’ll make it this weekend!
Adrianacandle,
Maybe it has too do with the glass candles. If Daenerys got her visions from a glass candle, is it possible that when you use a glass candle when somebody sleeps it can implement ideas. It’s a brainwash technique in real world, having people hear thinks when they sleep. It’s even in some forms of therapy that someone should listen to some things before sleeping to get better rest and fall “positive in sleep” and that results in that you feel better overal, what happen in your sleep is very important for mental health. Back to the point, maybe they have use glass candles on Aemon when he slept. Maybe manifest that he was talking to Egg and that Egg states he should go to the wall.
No Marwyn wants to stop the archmaesters who want to stop Magic, Marwyn wants magic, he even learned Mirri Maz Duur her tricks. But why doesn’t he want magic to end. I hope we will found out soon enough. And I wonder if Marwyn is maybe “The Perfumed Seneschal” that Daenerys is warned about.
Or Sam finding something out the moment Euron attacks Oldtown and the thing he finds out should never be in the hands of Euron. But because Sam was finding thinks out, Euron have found that out. If the Maesters could stop Magic they probably can also enhance it, making a man a god walking on earth.
True, but what if ending magic also end that kind of magic, the magic that will end the long night. And also what is magic, if we would go back in time and show people how we talk with each other through a phone we would be burned at the stake for witchcraft. So what is magic, is it maybe something that could be defined in science in a way (Westerosi science not earth science) as you state it’s part of nature.
Oh a bit like “Soda Syrup” but then not liquid but crystals. Sounds tasty.
Your welcome, I just though of it, and I think I will make it tomorrow. The thing is dutch has really nice receipts (personally I find it better than British food, at least we at spices), but the only thing people known of us are the damn “Bitterballen” or “Stroopwafels” even when both are pretty tasty. But there are many dutch delicacies that we are really good at, dutch-cheese is one of the most tasteful when it comes to yellow-cheese (don’t known the real name of that kind of cheese), we have amazing apple-pies, https://www.thuisbezorgd.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/appeltaart.jpg or hazelnut-pastry from one big bakery in the busy side of the country (west), Hachee (it’s stew basis of meat onion and some herbs), Dutch pancakes are amazing, better than the American ones, it’s a bit like the Italian ones but lot thicker and we sometimes eat it with Apple and Cinnamon, or other things depends on the season in summer it’s nice with strawberries. And poffertjes,
Do you’re country have special dishes? Sorry that I talked that long about it, I like talking about food.
kevin1989,
Perhaps! But I think Aemon’s reasons are sound on their own and it’d make sense that this would be a voluntary choice on his part. He never demonstrated a desire to take the throne and when there were those who wanted to release Aemon from his maester’s vows so Aemon could take the crown, Aemon refused and stepped aside for his younger brother, Aegon. I think Aemon wanting to join the Watch in order to avoid being used as a pawn against his brother sounds like an Aemon thing to do.
I know Marwyn taught MMD about human anatomy and he’s pretty unpopular with the other maesters, who he doesn’t think much of either, but I’m not sure what his intentions are…
I don’t know how the rest will play out but I don’t know if it’d be wise of Marwyn to rely so much on Sam unknowingly doing what Marwyn wants him to do because Sam may not do as Marwyn wants and Marwyn doesn’t really know Sam well enough to predict his behaviors.
Unless Marwyn has some power of foresight?
I think the magic in this world is more mystical and nature-based than technological (ie. human innovations) as the magic seems to be a force of the gods and otherworldliness in this universe. The Others, the magic in Winterfell, the Wall, the magic of the Old Gods, wargs, R’hllor, the Red Priestesses, all of the freaky stuff Dany encounters, the hatching of the dragons, the strange visions and dreams, Melisandre’s fires, etc.
I think all of this is in the fabric of this world, beyond human control or invention. It’s in the weirwood, in Dany’s dragons, Melisandre’s fires, wargs, the strangeness of Asshai, the butterflies of Naath, whatever sent the direwolves to the Stark kids, the Children of the Forest, etc.
As a result, I don’t think this kind of magic can be ended because it seems to be part of the fabric of this world itself.
Yes!!
And thank you again for the recipe! I am familiar with bitterballen and stroopwafels — and I love them both!! 🙂 My other favourites are speculaas cookies and patatje oorlog! I also love gouda and dutch pancakes!! I’d always go to the Pannenkoekschip and get cherry pancakes with Chocomel! And from HEMA, my favourite thing is the cream cheese sandwich <3 Yes, the stew! My Vlaardingen friends always make it for me when I come, especially if I become tired or sick <3 But I am very interested in that hazelnut pastry…
Canadian special foods… hmmm… I think that'd be poutine, ketchup chips, maple syrup, Tim Horton's coffee??? 🙂
Adrianacandle,
And butter tarts! Nanaimo bars!
Of course! How could I forget those??
Do dill pickle/all dressed chips count? 😀
Adrianacandle,
Yes and that’s why Marwyn’s story is strange. (Some think he is using some glamour and is instead of going to Daenerys going to Jon at the wall and is now at Stannis camp, that Tycho = Marwyn.
True I really don’t see how the Maesters can stop magic.
About the Perfumed Seneschal, I reread the prophecy a couple of times and I now believe that all the 6 Quiathe named before are “Perfumed Seneschals”. It could be that it means that the Perfumed Seneschal is another word for sycophant. Somebody who comes to Daenerys to help her but only because they want something in return.
Moqorro wants Daenerys to spread the word of the Lord of Light, Victarion wants to get Daenerys for his own intentions with battling against his brother. Jon Connington wanted only to help Daenerys when she would be part into restoring Aegon on the throne, Tyrion wants to help Daenerys also for his own gain, to get revenge on his family. Aegon wants to help daenerys to get himself on the throne and Quentyn wants Daenerys home because of Doran’s plan to overthrown the Lannisters. They all are helping Daenerys for themselves, not to help her. That’s why Quiathe states remember the HotU, they told Daenerys they wanted to help her, but in the end they only wanted to use her.
Hazelnut pastry: https://www.brokkingbanket.nl/public/files/productLarge/5012.JPG
We also have them in one person pastry which I rather eat, it’s filled with whip cream:
https://www.brokkingbanket.nl/public/files/productLarge/5022.JPG
Maple Syrup is amazing, I don’t know where but I have eating on a pancake. I think it was in “The efteling” a huge themepark with a nice Pancake restaurant. It taste amazing. Poutine sounds strange cheese with jus but maybe it’s amazing should try it sometime, And tim hortons is a bit like Starbucks? But better?
Those looks tasty.
kevin1989,
Marwyn’s story IS strange!
I’m hoping the story doesn’t use glamours too much because glamours can quickly become problems — remember in Heroes, when Sylar could take anyone’s face and he was taking over characters left and right, including a main character? Sylar became too powerful, a juggernaut. I think glamours are very tricky to use well in stories.
We’ll see how the Perfumed Seneschal turns out! But yes, I think a key part would be wanting her only for their self-interest (power, throne, revenge).
That sounds REALLY good!! And that photo looks amazing!
I’ve been there, I’ve been to that restaurant at the Efteling!! One of my friends says true maple syrup can be pretty expensive but she loves to use it for cooking so when I visit her, I try to bring as many bottles as I can — but that can be difficult because of baggage weight limitations (23 kg is NOT enough to travel with! 😭)
Poutine does sound strange on paper but is quite good — but heavy and rich. It’s, yeah, fries with gravy and cheese curds — the opposite of healthy eating 😉
Tim Horton’s is like Starbucks but has more in the way of food items (donuts, sandwiches, soups, wraps, buns, baked goods) while Starbucks has more coffee/latte selection. Ancient Canadian legend has it that if you die in Canada, you respawn in the nearest Tim Horton’s 😉
What I’m about to say is sacrilegious: I like Starbucks hot chocolate better than Tim Horton’s.
It comes with whipped cream, it tastes darker, richer! And you can put chocolate sprinkles on top!!
But hot chocolate in your country can only be described as divine — easily beating Starbucks! The first time I got hot chocolate in the Netherlands, it was a cafe in Amsterdam and I was given a cup of milk chocolate chips, a small plate of whipped cream, and a mug of hot milk. Like the idiot I am, I treated the milk chocolate chips like separate candy pieces, and had the whipped cream and hot milk separately, never realizing you were supposed to combine all three.
And then I got a little sick. The price to pay for my lameness! XD
Butter tarts are my grandpa’s favourite thing in the world and really simple to make! I can give you my Grandnana’s recipe if you like? 🙂
kevin1989,
I’ll post the recipe anyway if you want it! 🙂
Butter tarts
1 egg
1/2 cup brown sugar
1/4 butter (melted)
1 tsp vinegar
1/4 cup raisins (I leave these out because I’ve been fooled by raisins too many times in cookies, thinking they were chocolate and was left bitterly disappointed)
1/4 cup shredded coconut
1/4 cup chopped walnuts
Tart shells
Mix everything up in a bowl and put a spoonful of mixture into a tart shell (about maybe half-full so it doesn’t overflow while baking). Bake at 375C for 15-20 min.
I think these make about a dozen or so 🙂
Adrianacandle,
True I rather hope Marwyn will go to Daenerys. And the the thing is.Marwyn also have Aemon’s body. He takes the Cinnanmon wind to Meereen. And isn’t Aemon’s body on the ship in a barrel? Kingsblood comes to mind. Poor Aemon.
And 23kg of Maple Syrup sounds enough to me. 😉
I would like that very much. 😀
Adrianacandle,
Thank you. I would also leave raisins out.
And which butter is best, I always use normal butter, not the fake margerine stuff.
And does it matter what kind of cup you use? Or is 1 cup a certain amount of ml or grams?
And I need too look where to get tart shells, those are already baked right?
kevin1989,
Oh god, you’re right about Aemon’s body, I didn’t even think of that…
Does Marwyn know Aemon’s body is on board? I know Sam told Alleras that Aemon had died during the voyage…
We should be allowed 30kg of syrup!! To allow for clothes, skin care, light-up travel mirror, emergency winter coat, emergency spring coat, emergency boots, emergency back-up flats, emergency back-up flats for that, presents, art supplies, hair dryer, curling iron, drawing tablet, back-up drawing tablet… 🙂
Real butter is best! None of that fake stuff!
Any tart shell/tart shell recipe will do — whether they are premade or from scratch!
I don’t think pre-made tart shells are baked yet but you can usually find them in the freezer section here! 🙂 But I’ve never looked for them in the Netherlands… I should look for them next time I’m there. We have things like these here but any tart crust will do!
Oh, I see! I misunderstood you at first and thought you were referring to tart shells! For the measurements, I’m referencing a measuring cup which is a certain amount of ml (250 ml) but grams can vary based on what you’re measuring.
Here is a conversion chart from The Metric Kitchen:
1 cup of brown sugar would be 180 g.
1/4 cup of melted butter would be 60 ml.
1/4 cup chopped walnuts would be 40 g.
1/4 shredded coconut would be something like 20(?) g.
1 tsp vinegar would be 5 ml 🙂
kevin1989,
Big correction on baking temp! Should be 190C, not 375C 🙂 (that’s 375F…!)
So whole converted recipe:
1 egg
1 cup of brown sugar would be 180 g.
1/4 cup of melted butter would be 60 ml.
1/4 cup chopped walnuts would be 40 g.
1/4 shredded coconut would be something like 20(?) g.
1 tsp vinegar would be 5 ml
Pre-made tart shells
Mix ingredients together, fill tarts half way, bake at 190C for 15-20 min 🙂
kevin1989,
Correction! *90g of brown sugar (recipe calls for 1/2 cup).
Sorry! My brain is totally elsewhere today.
Adrianacandle,
I don’t trust Marwyn and I begin to include he is after a dragon, and he needs kings blood for it.
Damn do you take your whole home with you when you visit? haha
And I always have real butter in house, it’s the best. Especially when making pies.
And I think I have see those tart shells in the bakery section of my store.
Adrianacandle,
I was already scared I needed to let my oven explode. XD
Adrianacandle,
Adrianacandle,
Thank you. I will make this in the weekend. Sounds tasty 😀
kevin1989,
I don’t trust Marwyn either… but at least he’s honest about not trusting him? 🙂
That’s what I’m asked all the time! XD And the answer is: just about! The most nerve-wracking part of flying is when the baggage is weighed 😰😰😰😰 But after that, it’s all good! Unless I’m sitting next to somebody using open-ear headphones $*%^@#&*# (the earphones which don’t contain the sound but let it flow freely, like wearing mini speakers on your head for all your neighbours to hear as well) Oh god, I have feelings on that.
Oh good! And I’m sorry about messing up the conversions XD; Sometimes it is confusing here — we measure weather temperature in Celsius but we use US standards of measurements for cooking and baking, including oven temps (so those are often in Fahrenheit).
But yes, 190C!!! 90g of brown sugar!
I so hope you like them! I loved them when I was a kid too because Nana would make them every Christmas of my life so they kind of taste like Christmas to me! I’m making some for Grandpa this week-end as well! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
I saw that we even have tart-shells that are much bigger for a whole party, where you can make one big tart. XD
I’ve heard legends of these! And that they go well with ice cream ;D