Ghost will return in Season 8, promises Game of Thrones VFX supervisor

Man's best friend indeed!
Man’s best friend indeed!

A beloved character not seen since season six is returning for season eight! While there was no way to choose a header photo for this story that didn’t immediately give it away, that doesn’t diminish my excitement one bit — ladies and gents, Ghost will be back!

Visual effects supervisor Joe Bauer told Huffington Post in a recent interview that Jon Snow‘s faithful red-eyed direwolf, who wasn’t seen in a single episode of season seven, will be a big player in the eighth and final season of Game of Thrones.

“Oh, you’ll see him again. He has a fair amount of screen time in Season 8,” Bauer said. “He does show up. … he’s very present and does some pretty cool things.”

Although Bauer noted that showrunners Dave Benioff and Dan Weiss could probably shed more light onto why Ghost was MIA for Season 7, he did say that it was, at least in part, due to the fact that working with real wolves — the method they usually use for creating the direwolves in the show — is predictably difficult.

“The direwolves are tough because you don’t want to get them wrong, so we end up always shooting real wolves and doing a scaling trick with them, but the real wolves only behave in certain ways,” Bauer said. “I think that has something to do with why the direwolves are in the show but they’re not maybe as integral as they are in the books.”

Ghost Season 6

So, if we’re seeing one direwolf in Season 8, will we see more? Last season we got a tantalizing scene with Nymeria and Arya, even though Nymeria ultimately stayed with the wild wolf pack she’s presumably been leading since Arya drove her off way back in Season 1. But as the symbol of House Stark, who has returned to power in the North, will the remaining direwolves join forces with their human counterparts in the fight between the living and the dead?

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Unfortunately, we don’t know about that, as Bauer doesn’t comment on her fate specifically in this interview. But maybe we can speculate that since this is the final season of Thrones, the show is going all-in on the direwolf budget. Like all things Season 8, we’ll just have to wait to find out.

109 Comments

  1. I am fully prepared for Ghost to be awesome in the season, and to ultimately live up to his name. (Sorry, Ghost lovers, I think its likely that he’ll be dead by the end of the season.)

  2. Yes! Ghost! I just hope they don’t have him reappear only to kill him off. I’m still upset over Summer’s death.

    Was the last time we saw him really during Jon’s resurrection?! 🤔

  3. I hope for a scene that features Ghost and a dragon working together to rip apart Wights. It’s not only a cool scene but also symbolic for Jon and his bloodline itself. I mean, come on now, something like that has to happen.

  4. Yeah I didn’t want to spill the beans this early, but they’ve been using my cardboard Ghost cut-outs for awhile now. *stretches, leans back in chair, hands behind head*.

    Seriously, they better be upping their game if they can afford frickin Toby the wight polar bear.

  5. I’m calling it. The theory of all theories. Ghost is a dragon rider, Azor Ahai, the Valenqar and will sit on the Iron Throne.

  6. I just hope Ghost doesn’t go down in some kind of “heroic” death, like Summer. I also want the dragons to live, but that may not be the way the story is supposed to go.

  7. He will have some screentime in some big battle, where he’ll die.
    That is the payment Jon needs to make if he ever wants to ride Rhaegal. 🤷

  8. Bauer said. “… but they’re not maybe as integral as they are in the books.”

    MAYBE not as integral? Maybe!? It’s gotten to the point where they’ve hardly even been a part of the show. We’ve seen more action by direwolf sigil flags and banners than the direwolves themselves.

    “Oh, you’ll see him again. He has a fair amount of screen time in Season 8,” Bauer said. “He does show up. … he’s very present and does some pretty cool things.”

    It is better late than never. It’s great to hear that at least Ghost will be around more and actually do something. We just have to hope they don’t cut him from scenes again… 🙁

  9. Clob,

    They’ve gotta bring back Nymeria. That brief “reunion” with Arya in S7e2 was woefully inadequate. Whenever I rewatch it, the soundtrack in my mind plays the Beatles singing “I don’t know why you say goodbye, I say hello.”

  10. Young Dragon:
    Clob,

    They don’t really do all that much in the books either.

    Their involvement and presence is considerably more than the barely-there on the show, especially when you factor in Stark thoughts and warging, and several actual physical actions were eliminated from the show. Do not forget that the books are also only as far as the mutiny at Castle Black and four of the direwolves are still living. I don’t foresee George plucking them off in the same willy-nilly manner. You may be reading the books with the thought that they do not matter but I certainly am not.

  11. I must confess that I would be more upset over Ghost’s death than over the death of most of the human characters. I fear he will go the way of Summer and suffer an arguably pointless, sacrificial/ heroic death.

  12. Hopefully they’ve fashioned him a dragonglass grill to fit over his gnashers, so that he can take down wights and white walkers with a single bite.

  13. This means some epic direwolf action is to ensue. I’m ready.

    I’m also glad that Ghost’s appearance means that he and Jon can have more development together.

  14. They better not try a parallel scene with Dany. If she slowly reaches out to pet Ghost, like Jon did with Drogon, she’ll end up with a few missing fingers.

  15. Eh… I’m skeptical. I think when all is said and done the show prefers Daenerys and the dragons and the Targaryens to the Starks and direwolves. Daenerys is meant to be the only hero and Jon and the Starks are supporting characters. It wouldn’t shock me if Ghost was either in two minutes CGI to die a horrible death or forgotten about entirely so that they can afford CGI of wight giants or Daenerys on Drogon.

  16. Patrick Sponaugle:
    I am fully prepared for Ghost to be awesome in the season, and to ultimately live up to his name. (Sorry, Ghost lovers, I think its likely that he’ll be dead by the end of the season.)

    Or that he actually “lives” up to his name in that Jon dies and Ghost represents the ghost of Jon. Ugh.. I got upset just typing that. 🙁

    I’m definitely holding out hope that we haven’t seen the last of Nymeria either!

  17. Awesoooooome!! Let’s just hope the things he does in S8 don’t include dying! x-}
    The one wolf bit from the books I most wish had been included onscreen was the one where Ghost was affectionate with Melisandre of all people, and gave her a kiss…that would’ve been too cute to see. x’-)

  18. John the normal guy,

    Dany ain’t a half Stark, and if she tried that stuff without Jon around I’m sure she’d be a few fingers missing. That being said I won’t be surprised if they have her meet Ghost in a similar Drogon / Jon manner. They do love Jon/Dany parallels in this show.

    got_tv_fan,

    Seven help us all, are we watching the same show?! Jon is hardly a supporting character, he’s quite a hero himself. Perhaps you were referring to the direwolves.

  19. Shelle,

    My fave book scene with Jon & Mel at the Wall ❤️ Don’t anybody @ me with “but she’s evil and 400 yrs old”! I shipped that with my whole heart 💔

  20. got_tv_fan,

    I would say that the CGI Department loves the Targaryens more than the Starks, but I would certainly disagree that the Starks are supporting characters. Jon Snow has more screen time than Dany does in the entirety of the show.

  21. Catspaw Assassin:
    Clob,

    I wanna see Arya riding into battle astride Nymeria, surrounded by her wolf pack!

    Yes, please!
    I’m so happy Ghost is confirmed at least, and not just a “cameo”. This is the best news regarding GOT season finale.

  22. TormundsWoman,

    The direwolves are IMO a symptom of disregarding the Starks, their importance, and their abilities in favor of Daenerys Targaryen. The Stark kids’ warging powers are, for instance, completely disregarded in the show other than Bran’s abilities. I’m not sure why Ghost’s role in the show is exactly given that Jon on the show, unlike Daenerys, has no magical powers or special abilities. And yes, I saw less of an emphasis on the Starks than the Targaryens in Season 7. Sure Kit Harington put in lots of hours doing mindless CGI action scenes for Season 8, but it seems clear that the showrunners prefer Daenerys, the Targaryens, and the dragons to the Starks, their storyline, and especially the direwolves. I believe that Daenerys is being set up as the main hero and the endgame ruler just based on how heavily Season 7 emphasized her and her storyline over Jon, Tyrion, and the rest of the characters. As a Stark fan, I dislike this quite a bit.

    Mr Derp,

    Kit Harington logs alot of time regarding CGI heavy action sequences. However, I believe that the showrunners vastly prefer Dany and her storyline to Jon and the North. Season 7 was heavily about Daenerys as a hero and a ruler and even Jon’s storyline revolved around her being queen. It wouldn’t shock me if Season 8 is the same. We all have our favorite characters and it appears that the showrunners prefer Daenerys over the other characters, especially Jon who is very flat on the show.

  23. Glad to hear he’ll be more present, but he’s so damn dead. I like Ghost more than any other dragon or direwolves but this is ominous signal to his demise. He’ll die most likely protecting Jon and him making those steps to learn how to train his own dragon.

  24. In my ignorance, I would assume it would take a lot fewer special effects and editing to put in a dog-wolf “actor” than to create a dragon out of mere pixels and imagination, and for a single dragon appearance, you could have a whole pack of direwolves. Perhaps I’m wrong? More likely, B&W discounted the importance of the direwolf arc, particularly the direwolf dreams and how the Stark children were wargs. So nearly all of this storyline has been cut out, much like Dorne’s.

  25. got_tv_fan,

    Jon being “flat” on the show is your opinion, not fact. I don’t think he’s “flat” at all, but of course YMMV.

    I mean, it’s not complicated. Dany is the one who is trying to be the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, so of course her story will revolve around ruling.

    Don’t forget that there’s still the reveal to come in season 8 that Jon is the rightful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Jon’s season 8 storyline will surely revolve around that, just as it will revolve around Dany having to come to terms with it.

  26. zandru,

    Direwolves are simply harder to pull off successsfully on screen than the dragons are. That’s why the direwolves have been somewhat sidelined in the show. CGI wolves don’t look convincingly real, and real wolves are very difficult to film with, so it leaves them with few options. At least, that’s what they’ve been saying.

  27. I would guess that they’ll probably CGI the wolves for season 8. I think if they can make Drogon look realistic with CGI, especially during interactions with real actors, then they can pull it off with Ghost/Nymeria too.

    I’m assuming the CGI issue with the wolves is that any interaction with a real actor tends to look fake, but I think a lot of the scenes involving the direwolves in season 8 could be action sequences that wouldn’t require any human interaction with them. It would just be CGI wolves tearing apart CGI wights or something. Meh, I dunno.

  28. Mr Derp,

    I’m a fan of the character in the book who can be dark, but simply hated how whitewashed he was and how he seemed like only a servant/ sidekick in Daenerys’ story like Daario (or even Tyrion) in Season 7. I’d have liked him to actually lie and play games and have selfish desires rather than being a boring “honor bot” who seems perfectly content to do whatever Daenerys orders him to without question. And I simply despised the storyline that revolved around him just selling out the North to Daenerys without thinking about the political consequences of his actions. It just seems to me that the showrunners were basically siding with Daenerys and suggesting she somehow “deserves” to be queen and disregarding the entire North/ Stark storyline.

    As for R+L=J, I’m beginning to think that that doesn’t amount to anything much. There is only six episodes left and they still haven’t dealt with the ramifications of Jon’s true heritage. They really cannot do that storyline justice in that little time, especially if they are going to do at least two huge battles. It will likely be handwaved with Jon giving up his claim to the Throne and everyone suddenly deciding Daenerys should be queen in the 1st episode. I don’t think that becomes king, so I’m not sure any vague proof of his legitimacy is important. (I believe Jon ends up dead and vacillate between either Daenerys ruling or their “baby” becoming child ruler with Tyrion as the regent. I don’t like either ending BTW, but I think they are the two most likely.)

  29. got_tv_fan,

    The R+L=J reveal could go in any direction, and I doubt that Jon would want to be king anyway, but I have a hard time believing that the reveal, which is 8 seasons in the making, will have little to no impact on the ending. That would be a shame.

  30. Mr Derp,

    If the final season is anything like Season 7, I would lower your expectations about R+L=J having any impact on the endgame.

  31. got_tv_fan: I’d have liked him to actually lie and play games and have selfish desires rather than being a boring “honor bot” who seems perfectly content to do whatever Daenerys orders him to without question.

    Not everyone in this show has to be a horrible person. I’m perfectly fine with Jon being the exception rather than a backstabbing selfish person like nearly everyone else on this show. Besides, he doesn’t “do whatever Daenerys orders him without question”. He refused to bend the knee to her until the end of the season when she proved to him that she will do everything she can to defeat the AOTD. Only then did Jon capitulate, and even then, he didn’t do it for her. He did it for his people.

    got_tv_fan: It just seems to me that the showrunners were basically siding with Daenerys and suggesting she somehow “deserves” to be queen and disregarding the entire North/ Stark storyline.

    The showrunners definitely reserve the “badass” moments for Dany, no question, and sometimes, I do find it a bit annoying. However, be careful about how you interpret this. They could be setting up Dany for a big fall in season 8. We just don’t know yet. I wouldn’t be too quick to assume that Dany will get everything that she wants.

    got_tv_fan: I simply despised the storyline that revolved around him just selling out the North to Daenerys without thinking about the political consequences of his actions

    Yes, not the most well-thought-out plan, but it should be understood by now that Jon is occupied with the AOTD. That’s all he cares about right now. He knows that everyone in WEsteros will die if they don’t come together to defeat them. All of his decisions will be influenced by this, so it shouldn’t be a surprise that Jon did what he did. It’s consistent with his character. Whether you agree with his decision or not is another question.

    got_tv_fan: I don’t think that becomes king, so I’m not sure any vague proof of his legitimacy is important.

    I don’t think Jon will be king in the end either, but it’s not “vague” proof at all. They have written proof from Sam’s book as well as visual “proof” from Bran’s vision. I don’t know if Howland Reed will make an appearance or not, but he’s an eyewitness who can corroborate some of this too.

  32. I’m so happy that Ghost will be in S8! I really wish I could watch the cut scene from S7. It made me so sad when I read about them cutting that scene.
    I wish we had seen a lot more of the Stark/Direwolf relationships in the show. Even a few more scenes. I know it would be harder to do because they shot with real wolves but it’s still kind of disappointing. Even if they did more with the times they were in the show and showed the bonds better.
    I kind of see the direwolves as a representation of who will still be a Stark at the end and who won’t. Not necessarily who will live or die. But Bran is the 3ER now and I see Sansa possibly marrying, hopefully a nice guy who will treat her well. I kind of want to see Jon staying true to his Starkness. He doesn’t need to have the name, but still feeling more connected to his Stark side would be good and not discarding it in favour of being a Targ. As for Arya. Well, I wouldn’t say no to her going off and being free. Travelling the world and following her dreams. I don’t see her leaving forever.
    This is all just my little theory though.

  33. Mr Derp,

    Not everyone in this show has to be a horrible person. I’m perfectly fine with Jon being the exception rather than a backstabbing selfish person like nearly everyone else on this show.

    You can be a “good person” and understand politics. Davos and Tyrion are good people and they understand politics. What is annoying is this good = dumb idea on the show. Moreover, people have selfish wants and desires. It doesn’t make Jon a bad person because he wanted to be Lord of Winterfell or because he was jealous of what Robb had.

    Besides, he doesn’t “do whatever Daenerys orders him without question”. He refused to bend the knee to her until the end of the season when she proved to him that she will do everything she can to defeat the AOTD.

    Jon acts very much like a servant around Daenerys even before he “kneels to her” and it is even worse after during the finale. They aren’t equals and the show doesn’t treat them in the same manner and never has. Jon is basically Daenerys’ replacement Daario and Jon is much more “deferential” to Daenerys than even Daario was.

    Only then did Jon capitulate, and even then, he didn’t do it for her. He did it for his people.

    He went against the wishes of his lords. His people told him that they don’t like the Targaryens and don’t want to kneel before Daenerys. He sold them out.

    We just don’t know yet. I wouldn’t be too quick to assume that Dany will get everything that she wants.

    All we have to go on right now is Season 7 and based on that, it seems like she is being set up to get everything she wants – her throne and even her child. I haven’t heard anything credible rumors that suggest otherwise.

    I don’t think Jon will be king in the end either, but it’s not “vague” proof at all

    We both agree that Jon won’t be king, so the entire legitimacy piece of the R+L=J was an unnecessary rabbit hole. Who cares if Rhaegar and Lyanna married if the only reason for R+L=J is for Jon to defeat the NK. It seems like quite a bit of wasted time dragging out the reveal for one episode of unnecessary political drama.

  34. Mr Derp,

    got_tv_fan,

    Jon and Daenerys are both my favourite characters in the show and I mostly like how their interaction and relationship has been portrayed so far. I just want to emphasize, prompted by the previous discussion, how Jon’s parentage reveal affects so many plotlines and characters on so many levels that I think it could hardly be disregarded or glossed over, but that it would be one of the key developments in Season 8:
    1. Melodramatic (personal) level – It’s obvious the will affect Jon greatly. He’s not Ned Stark’s son and not a bastard. Identity crisis is about to happen. This changes family relations Jon has with several important characters:
    – Sansa and Arya – he is their cousin not half-brother,
    – Daenerys – her love interest is also her nephew. She is not the last Targaryen. Jon is her family in more ways than one.
    Furthermore, a couple of other characters could be impacted by the personal aspect of the reveal, in not so obvious way:
    – Jorah – this could only increase his loyalty to Jon. Jon is a Stark and a Targaryen. Jorah is bound to the Starks as a Mormont and a Northerner and house Targaryen is his personal choice of allegiance. And any lingering jealousy towards Jon should fade away. Jon and Daenerys are both Targaryens and in love. When Targaryens are concerned, you just can’t compete with that, can you?
    – Jaime – he is, in the books at least, haunted in his dreams by Rhaegar Targaryen for not keeping his children with Elia Martell alive. Now he would have a chance at redemption for this by serving Rhaegar’s last surviving son.
    – Cersei – if she finds out about this and if she and Jon meet, there could be, knowing her, some hateful and poisonous words directed towards Jon and his long dead mother. Not only did Robert call her by Lyanna’s name during their wedding night, which was a slight she’s never forgotten or forgiven, but now there’s Jon Snow who is the son of that same Lyanna Stark and the man Cersei was in love and obsessed with and expected to marry as a teenage girl.

  35. 2. Political level – Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen – the heir to the Iron Throne. I think, at first, Jon will want to run away from this as far as possible, but he would come around because of his sense of duty and because in the end he and Daenerys would agree that they wish to rule together.

    – Daenerys – her claim to the Iron Throne is weakened. She is not the heir, Jon is.
    – Tyrion and Davos – it will come to these two, and maybe Varys, to sort this mess out. While Tyrion might start overthinking it, I think it could be Davos who says something like “Let’s just get them married and resolve this issue once and for all”
    – Sansa – Sansa’s claim to Winterfell and North is strenghtened. As Jon’s destiny becomes entangled more and more with the Iron Throne and Westeros as a whole, Sansa will become the undisputed leader of the North.

  36. got_tv_fan: You can be a “good person” and understand politics. Davos and Tyrion are good people and they understand politics. What is annoying is this good = dumb idea on the show. Moreover, people have selfish wants and desires. It doesn’t make Jon a bad person because he wanted to be Lord of Winterfell or because he was jealous of what Robb had.

    Yes, Tyrion and Davos “understand politics” and yet are not particularly selfish people. Jon has wants and desires just like everyone else on the show. I don’t get why Jon being more selfish would make him more interesting, but everyone has their preferences I guess. I like Jon just the way he is. There’s plenty of selfish ambition to be had with other characters in GoT. I don’t need every character to be the same. It’s actually a lot more interesting to me when a character deals with the consequences in making the right decision rather than just constantly betraying people to stay alive.

    got_tv_fan: Jon acts very much like a servant around Daenerys even before he “kneels to her” and it is even worse after during the finale. They aren’t equals and the show doesn’t treat them in the same manner and never has. Jon is basically Daenerys’ replacement Daario and Jon is much more “deferential” to Daenerys than even Daario was.

    Please be specific as to how Jon acts like a servant around Dany because right now you’re just speaking in generalities. I actually seem to recall Jon giving Dany advice in season 7 to the point where Dany started listening to him more than she listened to Tyrion. That doesn’t paint a picture of Jon being a servant to Dany at all. Certainly, not in the way you’re putting it. Like I said before, Jon bent the knee AFTER Dany proved herself to him, and Jon only did it to get Dany to fight for his cause.

    got_tv_fan: He went against the wishes of his lords. His people told him that they don’t like the Targaryens and don’t want to kneel before Daenerys. He sold them out.

    He didn’t sell anyone out. Yes, his people don’t trust the Targs and don’t want to kneel for Dany. However, I have a feeling the fickle Northern lords you speak of will be just fine with it once the AOTD comes knocking at their doorstep. And if not, it’s their own fault for prioritizing their pride over survival.

    got_tv_fan: All we have to go on right now is Season 7 and based on that, it seems like she is being set up to get everything she wants – her throne and even her child. I haven’t heard anything credible rumors that suggest otherwise.

    Season 7 made a point to show that things weren’t going well for her…at all. How can you come to the conclusion based on season 7 that Dany is set up to get everything she wants? She currently has no specific plan on how to win, she now has to dedicate all of her resources to fighting the AOTD instead of focusing on winning the Iron Throne, her advisors are secretly questioning her decisions, she has no succession plan, and Jon will soon be revealed as the true heir to the Iron Throne.

    got_tv_fan: We both agree that Jon won’t be king, so the entire legitimacy piece of the R+L=J was an unnecessary rabbit hole. Who cares if Rhaegar and Lyanna married if the only reason for R+L=J is for Jon to defeat the NK. It seems like quite a bit of wasted time dragging out the reveal for one episode of unnecessary political drama.

    We don’t know how this aspect will play out yet…at all, so it’s pointless to assume anything right now.

  37. 3. Strategic (military) level – Jon’s heritage makes him eligible to become a dragonrider which could be handy with the approaching war against the dead and, conveniently, the second of Daenerys’s surviving dragons is riderless and named after Jon’s father. I think Davos, with his common sense, or Sam with his knowledge, could be the first to point out this most important practical consequence of the reveal, while others are still struggling with personal and political fallout.

    4. Metaphysical (prophetic) level – Jon’s Targaryen and Stark heritage makes him the blood of two houses which are connected to prophecies and magic more than any other. He is the most obvious candidate for the Prince that was Promised, the Song of Ice and Fire or whatever name the mythical hero bears. Melisandre (if she’s there and I think she will be) is the first who comes to mind to realize this consequence of the reveal and to her it would be the most important one. Bran, Sam and even Varys with his unfinished business with Melisandre could be involved in resolving this prophecy puzzle.
    I think this prophecy part will be important, because even in our world in times of great danger, wars, upheavals and cataclysmic events, people turn to faith and myths to guide, comfort and inspire them in the face of adversity. It is something that should be expected even more in the fictional world of Game of Thrones, where magic and supernatural are obvious and omnipresent. So, even if this prophecy thing turns out to work backwards, it could still become a rallying cry for the living to band together and face the Army of the Dead.

    This turned out to be longer than I expected, sorry!

  38. Milutin,

    First, the fact that there are only six episodes left, so the “reveal” is going to be shortchanged regardless of how important it is on the emotional level. Many things have unfortunately been shortchanged in the show due to how rushed the last two seasons feel. Second, if you believe what I do, that Jon is probably dead at the end of the series, then it doesn’t matter if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. That whole “annulment” plotline might just be some manufactured melodrama for one episode that is neatly resolved with Jon giving up his claim.

  39. got_tv_fan,

    Yes, there are only six episodes, but those episodes are really only dealing with two storylines. The previous seasons had to deal with a lot more, so I would argue they have more time to deal with the R+L=J fallout than they normally had in the past. The rest of your post is purely pessimistic speculation/Danerys hate.

  40. got_tv_fan,

    As you can see in my post, I pointed out to many aspects of the reveal. They are not just melodramatic and certainly not manufactured. They lead to interesting and logical developments. I don’t know if Jon will be alive or dead in the end, but regardless of the final outcome he could still be the Prince that was Promised, be a dragonrider, have all the emotional fallout of the reveal and interactions with characters I listed above. I expect at least some of those things to be included in the show and be relevant for the endgame regardless of whether Jon lives or dies.

  41. Clob,

    Personally I don’t give two shits about the direwolves in GoT. As for what their fate will be in the books we’ll probably never know as GRRM will never finish the series! Its pretty obvious he lost interest years ago and spends his time working on other projects. I’m pleased for the direwolf fans in this group that at least Ghost will come back in S8, but as for Nymeria – I reckon that’s just wishful thinking 😉

  42. Young Dragon,

    As a Stark fan/ Jon fan, Season 7 left me pessimistic about the endgame. It does seem to be focused more on Daenerys and her quest than it is about Jon or the Starks or the North. And don’t get me started about Tyrion who hasn’t been on the show really for the last three seasons.

    And yes, I will admit to not liking Daenerys as a character that much. I’m a fan of the Starks and the North. It is infuriating for her to get cool girl power moments at the expense of Jon and the Starks. Looping back to the above story, the Starks’ direwolves, their “warging ability,” and Northern “ice magic” in general has been forgotten while Daenerys is even more superpowered than she is in the books. (For instance, she cannot walk out of fire unburnt in the books as she did in Season 6.)

    Milutin,

    I was really speaking about the annulment and Rhaegar’s marriage. Being the legitimate son of Rhaegar only matters for politics and I don’t think that Jon survives so the whole plotline about the septon’s diary is probably a dead end.

  43. got_tv_fan,

    Season 7 was about Dany finally arriving in Westeros and her goal to take the IT from Cersei, which was 6 seasons in the making, so it makes perfect sense that it would take up a significant portion of the season. The AOTD hadn’t crossed the Wall yet, so the main threat in season 7 was still Cersei vs. Dany. However, now that the AOTD has breached the Wall, I fully expect season 8 to feature the Northern storyline more so than what we got in season 7.

    They definitely reserved the mic-drop moments for Dany, but Jon Snow actually had more screen time in season 7 than Dany did. The writers certainly have their favorites, but Dany was barely in season 4 and Jon was barely in season 2. It’s not about what character the writers prefer. It’s about what’s necessary for the story.

  44. Mr Derp,

    Yes, Tyrion and Davos “understand politics” and yet are not particularly selfish people. Jon has wants and desires just like everyone else on the show. I don’t get why Jon being more selfish would make him more interesting, but everyone has their preferences I guess. I like Jon just the way he is. There’s plenty of selfish ambition to be had with other characters in GoT.

    I personally don’t like characters in general who are goody-goodies and who don’t struggle with things that us mere mortals struggle with. I want heroes who are human and who have human desires and ambitions, not perfect white knights. Jon isn’t a perfect person in the books. He is dark for a hero, especially in ADWD. So it is annoying to have him so whitewashed into an ambitionless, emotionless Dudley Do-Right who only wants to save the world and one who cannot see the politics.

    It’s actually a lot more interesting to me when a character deals with the consequences in making the right decision rather than just constantly betraying people to stay alive.

    Doing dark things for a good purpose is interesting (like blowing up KL to save the world), but I don’t think that we are going to get something that interesting.

    Please be specific as to how Jon acts like a servant around Dany because right now you’re just speaking in generalities.

    Most of their interactions are him treating her like a queen and his “superior” and her treating him like a servant and ordering him around. And just many of the visuals, lighting, and dialogue put her in a more “dominant” position. Just one striking visual is that the banners on the ship that they took to KL and North are Targaryen, not Stark and Targaryen. If it was an equal partnership, then why wouldn’t the visual team have added a Stark banner to the ships?

    I actually seem to recall Jon giving Dany advice in season 7 to the point where Dany started listening to him more than she listened to Tyrion.

    Jon seems clueless about Daenerys’ military campaign despite being on Dragonstone. He certainly doesn’t know that Daenerys burnt Sam’s father and brother alive. So I’m not sure where he is giving her military advice. The one scene is where she “ordered” him to advise her as she would a servant. It definitely wasn’t a scene where she respected him as a confidante.

    Like I said before, Jon bent the knee AFTER Dany proved herself to him, and Jon only did it to get Dany to fight for his cause.

    It was a poor political decision done after she had already agreed to help.

    He didn’t sell anyone out. Yes, his people don’t trust the Targs and don’t want to kneel for Dany. However, I have a feeling the fickle Northern lords you speak of will be just fine with it once the AOTD comes knocking at their doorstep. And if not, it’s their own fault for prioritizing their pride over survival.

    They might decide that they still don’t particularly want to be ruled by the Targaryens again after the WW are defeated. At least I hope they do. Of course, I fear that it might be a Disney ending with everyone deciding Daenerys is the best ruler of all time.

    Season 7 made a point to show that things weren’t going well for her…at all. How can you come to the conclusion based on season 7 that Dany is set up to get everything she wants? She currently has no specific plan on how to win, she now has to dedicate all of her resources to fighting the AOTD instead of focusing on winning the Iron Throne, her advisors are secretly questioning her decisions, she has no succession plan, and Jon will soon be revealed as the true heir to the Iron Throne.

    It was heavily implied that Jon gets her pregnant in the finale and I believe given the pro-Targaryen tenor/ pro-Daenerys tenor of Season 7 that it is way more likely to end on a happy note for her than it is for the Starks or the North. I also don’t think (and you mentioned that you don’t think so either) that Jon ends up as king so I’m not sure why R+L=J matters at a political level.

  45. got_tv_fan: Most of their interactions are him treating her like a queen and his “superior” and her treating him like a servant and ordering him around. And just many of the visuals, lighting, and dialogue put her in a more “dominant” position. Just one striking visual is that the banners on the ship that they took to KL and North are Targaryen, not Stark and Targaryen. If it was an equal partnership, then why wouldn’t the visual team have added a Stark banner to the ships?

    If you think the Dany/Jon relationship is all about Dominance and submission then I think you’ve really missed the point. The way you make it sound I would think that Game of Thrones is a BDSM themed show where Dany is a Dominatrix and Jon is her bitch boi or something. It just doesn’t play out on screen the way you’re suggesting.

    1. Dany is temporarily giving up the whole purpose of her arc (claiming the iron throne) in order to fulfill Jon’s (beating the dead).

    2. When Jon bent the knee to Dany this past season, IF she “bends the knee” to him next season after finding out he’s the true heir, accepting he is king to her queen, his birthright, etc, then the pairing will be on equal terms. Both gave to the other. They can rule as equals in character and narrative.

    3. If Dany accepts Jon as king next season without Jon bending the knee this season, the narrative basically turns into one where the female character gave everything to the male character that belonged to her (her armies, titles, etc), and the story becomes unequal in the opposite direction.

    got_tv_fan: Jon seems clueless about Daenerys’ military campaign despite being on Dragonstone. He certainly doesn’t know that Daenerys burnt Sam’s father and brother alive. So I’m not sure where he is giving her military advice. The one scene is where she “ordered” him to advise her as she would a servant. It definitely wasn’t a scene where she respected him as a confidante.

    She was certainly acting like a petulant brat at times this past season, and I hated the way she treated Tyrion, but if she didn’t respect Jon as a confidante then she wouldn’t have asked for his advice to begin with. She would’ve just done whatever she wanted without considering his opinion. I mean, would you ask someone for their advice if you think they’re an idiot? I highly doubt it.

    got_tv_fan: I also don’t think (and you mentioned that you don’t think so either) that Jon ends up as king so I’m not sure why R+L=J matters at a political level.

    I honestly don’t know what to expect right now. Generally, I would assume most everyone will die, but we really don’t have much to go on. What if Jon lives? Have you considered that?

  46. Milutin: – Jorah – this could only increase his loyalty to Jon. Jon is a Stark and a Targaryen. Jorah is bound to the Starks as a Mormont and a Northerner and house Targaryen is his personal choice of allegiance. And any lingering jealousy towards Jon should fade away. Jon and Daenerys are both Targaryens and in love. When Targaryens are concerned, you just can’t compete with that, can you?

    Although you’ve written a number of perceptive things, and thanks! I’ve got to disagree with your assessment of Jorah. House Mormont may be “bound to the Starks”, but Jorah personally hates them all. Lord Eddard Stark, as you recall, was the one who exiled Jorah and would have gladly executed him on sight. Jon gets no boost from being a Stark on his mother’s side. As to the Targaryens, Jorah is loyal to Daenerys, full stop. Not “House Targaryen” or any other Targaryen offspring, like Jon Snow/Aegon VI.

    What Jorah does feel towards Jon will be simple jealousy, that this young dude with the great hair has usurped his position as Dany’s confidante, advisor, protector — and, in his fondest hopes — lover. So Jorah will be a problem in the last season. He probably won’t try a “Mandon Moore” in the heat of the (many) battles, but his enmity towards Jon/”Aegon” will emerge, just the same.

    To radically change the subject, I’ve been assuming pessimisticly that Tyrion has betrayed Dany to his reputedly-preggers sister Cersei. Then I recalled his conversation with Jon in the Dragonpit, where he told Jon that Jon should have just lied to Cersei to make her happy and then gone on with his life. This opens the possibility that that was exactly what Tyrion did, and Tyrion (via Dinklage) was a good enough mummer to fool all of us. Well, we can hope.

  47. If you think the Dany/Jon relationship is all about Dominance and submission then I think you’ve really missed the point. The way you make it sound I would think that Game of Thrones is a BDSM themed show where Dany is a Dominatrix and Jon is her bitch boi or something. It just doesn’t play out on screen the way you’re suggesting.

    I think that Daenerys is meant to be the queen and Jon is meant to be her servant. I don’t think that it is BDSM, but I do think that it isn’t a relationship of equals but rather a relationship similar to Dany’s affair with Daario or her relationship with Jorah. I’m not seeing how they’ve approached it differently than any other relationship she has with any other character on the show. It is pretty clear that Daenerys doesn’t see anyone as her equal, Jon included

    1. Dany is temporarily giving up the whole purpose of her arc (claiming the iron throne) in order to fulfill Jon’s (beating the dead).

    If she doesn’t, then she won’t have a country to rule.

    2. When Jon bent the knee to Dany this past season, IF she “bends the knee” to him next season after finding out he’s the true heir, accepting he is king to her queen, his birthright, etc, then the pairing will be on equal terms. Both gave to the other. They can rule as equals in character and narrative.

    I don’t think that Jon ends up as king so I doubt that this will happen. It is likely that he would just cede is claim again. I also don’t think that the showrunners would have the powerful female protagonist “bend a knee.” It is really difficult to promote an idea about “women ruling” and then have the powerful female ruler with vast armies and dragons sidelined because of something as misogynist as primogeniture. The showrunners likely just want to emphasize the idea that Daenerys is queen and Jon is her subject and the imbalance will continue in the final season.

    She was certainly acting like a petulant brat at times this past season, and I hated the way she treated Tyrion, but if she didn’t respect Jon as a confidante then she wouldn’t have asked for his advice to begin with. She would’ve just done whatever she wanted without considering his opinion. I mean, would you ask someone for their advice if you think they’re an idiot? I highly doubt it.

    I don’t think that ordering someone to tell you what to do when you are in the middle of an angry fit is approaching someone as an equal or a confidante. As I pointed out, Jon seems to be in the dark about Daenerys military campaign. No one told him about Daenerys burning his BFF’s brother and father alive. (At least I hope he is clueless about that.)

    I honestly don’t know what to expect right now. Generally, I would assume most everyone will die, but we really don’t have much to go on. What if Jon lives? Have you considered that?

    I don’t think Jon lives. There are enough clues that he was only brought back for a purpose (i.e. the Beric conversation) and if he lives the show established that he is ambition-less, so he will likely just abdicate like he did in Season 7. I really am not sure what the purpose for the annulment is. It is probably just a dead end like Jon’s resurrection or the Citadel plot.

  48. got_tv_fan: If it was an equal partnership, then why wouldn’t the visual team have added a Stark banner to the ships?

    No reason. Jon isn’t a Stark.

  49. got_tv_fan: If she doesn’t, then she won’t have a country to rule.

    Exactly. The relationship between Jon and Dany is one of give and take. They sacrifice for each other, which makes me see them in a much more equal footing. Dany didn’t give a shit about anything Daario wanted and wouldn’t have sacrificed anything for him.

    got_tv_fan: I don’t think that Jon ends up as king so I doubt that this will happen

    got_tv_fan: The showrunners likely just want to emphasize the idea that Daenerys is queen and Jon is her subject and the imbalance will continue in the final season.

    These are total assumptions and you have no evidence to back any of it up. If anything, the R+L=J reveal should make Jon less likely to be her subject, not keep the status quo.

    got_tv_fan: I don’t think that ordering someone to tell you what to do when you are in the middle of an angry fit is approaching someone as an equal or a confidante. As I pointed out, Jon seems to be in the dark about Daenerys military campaign. No one told him about Daenerys burning his BFF’s brother and father alive. (At least I hope he is clueless about that.)

    Rulers don’t demand advice from a servant who is clueless to what is going on. Dany clearly thinks of Jon in a better light than that.

    got_tv_fan: I don’t think Jon lives. There are enough clues that he was only brought back for a purpose (i.e. the Beric conversation) and if he lives the show established that he is ambition-less, so he will likely just abdicate like he did in Season 7. I really am not sure what the purpose for the annulment is. It is probably just a dead end like Jon’s resurrection or the Citadel plot.

    Yes, the purpose he was brought back could easily be to rule the Seven Kingdoms. I’m not saying it will happen, but there’s no reason to think it couldn’t right now. The show is all about making difficult, damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t decisions. Perhaps Jon’s final decision is to rule despite the fact that he has no ambition to do so. Besides, the conversation with Jon and Beric that you brought up ended with Jon agreeing that helping those that cannot help themselves is enough. “The shield that guards the realms of men”. Being king would qualify.

  50. It’s hard to have a discussion when all of my comments are constantly put under moderation purgatory. Hopefully the one I just posted will show up soon.

  51. zandru,

    Well, I thought since Jorah was coming home to the North and seeing his relative Lyanna Mormont being so fiercely loyal to the Starks and Jon especially, he could somehow reconcile his feelings and loyalties… Ah, you’re probably right. Just wishful thinking 😞

  52. Milutin:
    zandru,

    Well, I thought since Jorah was coming home to the North and seeing his relative Lyanna Mormont being so fiercely loyal to the Starks and Jon especially, he could somehow reconcile his feelings and loyalties… Ah, you’re probably right. Just wishful thinking 😞

    No, I think Jorah will be ok with Jon. Jorah may love Dany, but he isn’t a stupid man, and he knows he isn’t getting her love back in that way. To me, the scene where Jon gives him Longclaw without hesitation after so long (not to mention having saved his father years ago), and Jorah returning it meant a lot. If it is something Jorah appreciates, it’s respect.

  53. Pigeon,

    Yes, thank you. The conversation about Longclaw beyond the Wall! I knew I had another argument for Jon and Jorah getting along, but I forgot about it😉

  54. got_tv_fan: I think that Daenerys is meant to be the queen and Jon is meant to be her servant. I don’t think that it is BDSM, but I do think that it isn’t a relationship of equals but rather a relationship similar to Dany’s affair with Daario or her relationship with Jorah. I’m not seeing how they’ve approached it differently than any other relationship she has with any other character on the show. It is pretty clear that Daenerys doesn’t see anyone as her equal, Jon included

    ITA. This relationship isn’t power neutral. There’s no distinguishable difference between Jorah, Tyrion, and Daario. Jon’s just another psychophant.
    Bye bye, Jon, you are now inducted into the Dany cult.
    Have fun with your queen worship.
    I’m sure your people will love how you gave their sovereignty over to Dany because you’re thinking with your dick.

  55. Mr Derp: They sacrifice for each other, which makes me see them in a much more equal footing.

    Dany still wanted assurance that she wouldn’t lose the IT.
    Jon gave Dany the North because he wants to give her gifts and thinks she’s amazing and everyone will love her.
    And it still wasn’t enough.
    Because the truce was still a requirement for her going north.
    And I’m thinking, “fuck this truce you already have the North what more do you want”

  56. MMJ: Dany did not willingly give up anything for Jon.

    Dany didn’t believe that the AOTD existed, so she didn’t feel the need to willingly give up anything at first. However, once she saw it for herself (something that she didn’t need to do but chose to anyway) things changed. She is now putting her personal goal aside (taking the throne) in order to help Jon with his. That’s the definition of a willing sacrifice whether you like her or not. She also risked her life and the lives of her dragons to save Jon’s life. Again, an example of a willing sacrifice. You can hate on Dany all you want, but you can’t say she didn’t sacrifice anything for Jon.

  57. Mr Derp: Dany didn’t believe that the AOTD existed, so she didn’t feel the need to willingly give up anything at first. However, once she saw it for herself (something that she didn’t need to do but chose to anyway) things changed. She is now putting her personal goal aside (taking the throne) in order to help Jon with his.That’s the definition of a willing sacrifice whether you like her or not.She also risked her life and the lives of her dragons to save Jon’s life. Again, an example of a willing sacrifice.You can hate on Dany all you want, but you can’t say she didn’t sacrifice anything for Jon.

    She believed Jon in the cave but basically decided they could all die, blaming Jon and his “selfish pride.” Jon snow, selfish? WTF. He falls for her with lines like that?

    She didnt even think her dragons could die – so how could she willingly sacrifice them? There is a difference between “sacrifice” and “loss.” And a dead dragon is not worth giving her a kingdom, especially when her “sacrifice” has made Jon’s job harder with a wight dragon. Dany does whatever she wants and everyone else just has to deal with it because she can melt their faces off. Cant wait for the series to end with a warlord restoring her family’s incestuous mad dynasty and getting exactly what she wanted: her son and daughter to fuck each other so they can ride dragons and create more mad kings.

  58. MMJ,

    I don’t recall Dany ever saying she didn’t think her dragons could die. When did she say that?

    Anyway, she willingly put her dragons and herself in harm’s way to save Jon’s life. She later told Jon she had no regrets about it. She was willing to risk it, and that’s all you need. That’s called a willing sacrifice. I don’t know how much simpler it can be explained.

    To be honest, I don’t really like Dany a ton. I generally like her, but I think her desire to rule is problematic and hypocritical in a number of ways. However, it’s obvious from your ramblings that you have a particular hatred of Dany and you’re letting it cloud your judgement, so this discussion probably doesn’t have much of a chance of getting anywhere in the first place.

  59. Mr Derp: Anyway, she willingly put her dragons and herself in harm’s way to save Jon’s life. She later told Jon she had no regrets about it. She was willing to risk it, and that’s all you need. That’s called a willing sacrifice. I don’t know how much simpler it can be explained.

    If it was such a selfless and heroic act she would never ask for something in return – but she did. She wanted the ceasefire to compensate for loss of her dragon when it looked like it might not work out in her favor. And if she were really the hero you say she is, she wouldnt let Cersei factor into her decision to save the North. She saved her new crush on a job that benefits her. Not impressed. She should save the maximum amount of people WITHOUT conditions or compensation or benefits to her later.

    And yes, Dany had no idea her dragons could be shot out of the sky. When they were planning how to deal with Euron, Dany said to Tyrion, “I’ll have Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal with me. What harm could come to them?”

  60. MMJ: And yes, Dany had no idea her dragons could be shot out of the sky. When they were planning how to deal with Euron, Dany said to Tyrion, “I’ll have Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal with me. What harm could come to them?”

    She said that earlier in the season. We’re discussing events that took place at the end of episode 6, so at that time, yes, Dany absolutely knew that her dragons were vulnerable to spears. Bronn nailed Drogon with one in episode 4. Hurr derp!

  61. Mr Derp: She said that earlier in the season.We’re discussing events that took place at the end of episode 6, so at that time, yes, Dany absolutely knew that her dragons were vulnerable to spears.Bronn nailed Drogon with one in episode 4.Hurr derp!

    Did that even phase her? She had hubris before and after that! She had no idea she was entering a place where javelins would be, lol. You’re making it sound like she thought she’d lose a dragon but went anyway. She didn’t sacrifice a dragon, she accidentally lost it.

  62. Mr Derp,

    Exactly. The relationship between Jon and Dany is one of give and take. They sacrifice for each other, which makes me see them in a much more equal footing.

    Daenerys isn’t doing anything special for Jon. She isn’t sacrificing anything for him; she is fulfilling her role as queen like Stannis fulfilled his role as king. If Daenerys was sacrificing something and this was a mutual relationship, then she would have refused Jon’s offer of fealty. It isn’t, she accepted, and she is queen still. I don’t think the showrunners will ever have her kneel. It would be anti-woman for her to do so. Her fans are pretty insistent on her being the sole queen and don’t want her to share. They see Jon either as cannon fodder or as a submissive consort.

    These are total assumptions and you have no evidence to back any of it up. If anything, the R+L=J reveal should make Jon less likely to be her subject, not keep the status quo.

    I am basing it on educated assumptions – Maisie’s interview, Season 7’s cheerleading of Daenerys, and general themes. I just cannot see how a TV show in this era could have the woman cede her claim based on primogeniture. She has the large army and the dragons. Jon brings nothing of value to the table. It makes sense that Daenerys remains the ruler and Jon her servant. She’s definitely not kneeling to him and they are definitely not sharing power.

    Rulers don’t demand advice from a servant who is clueless to what is going on. Dany clearly thinks of Jon in a better light than that.

    I certainly hope he is clueless to the Tarly situation. It certainly makes him seem like a brainwashed servant if he knows about that and follows Dany blindly. And you don’t order around people who you admire and consider your equals in such a brusque and humiliating fashion. Daenerys treats Jon as a servant and he responds like a servant. He doesn’t assert himself or act like his own man – let alone a ruler or leader.

  63. Yea, I predicted this would go nowhere and I haven’t been disappointed.

    MMJ,

    This all started because I said (to someone else) that Dany and Jon have both sacrificed for each other (regardless of how much), but you disagreed. I articulated how Dany sacrificed for Jon (putting her arc aside for his, risking her life, etc.) , but you came back at me with misleading statements and now you’re just doubling down. I think we’re done here.

    got_tv_fan,

    The vast majority of your statements are nothing more than Daenerys hatred mixed in with opinion based on nothing at all and you’re passing it off as fact. There’s no point in continuing this either.

  64. Yea, I predicted this would go nowhere and I haven’t been disappointed.

    MMJ,

    This all started because I said (to someone else) that Dany and Jon have both sacrificed for each other (regardless of how much), but you disagreed. I articulated how Dany sacrificed for Jon (putting her arc aside for his, risking her life, etc.) , but you came back at me with misleading statements and now you’re just doubling down. I think we’re done here.

    got_tv_fan,

    The vast majority of your statements are nothing more than Daenerys hatred mixed in with opinion based on nothing at all and you’re passing it off as fact. There’s no point in continuing this either.

  65. Mr Derp,

    Sorry, but I am pointing out that an alternate analysis. What I am saying isn’t anti-Daenerys if you are a big Daenerys fan. In fact, Daenerys fans see her as the only ruler and want her to get everything her heart’s desires. They see Jon as incidental or her submissive consort there to walk two steps behind her and keep house while she rules. The showrunners do as well. I’m not sure how you think that you can be in the climate we are in and think for a moment that a female character on a show would give up power to a guy – even under primogeniture. It is the same with them ruling as equals (like that would ever happen – Jonerys fans want Jon keeping house only.) The national climate doesn’t allow for “imperialist” male characters like Jon to be leaders or rulers; they must be cut down to size. Daenerys will never give up power; that would ruin the character. However, Jon must give up power because he would be a misogynist pig if he doesn’t submit to Daenerys.

    (And I am a woman, so please don’t assume that this is some sexist rant. It just annoys me seeing my favorite character destroyed.)

  66. Well this has been fun. I once dated a guy who thought that the louder he talked and the more he repeated himself, the more convincing he’d be. Nope.

  67. got_tv_fan,

    I am not sure how Dany “giving up her power” would constitute character ruin. I see it as enriching her character; a growth she undergoes as she not only falls in love with, but ultimately learns to compromise and “co-rule” with, Jon- whom she comes to see as a counterpart worthy of such recognition and trust. Not totally unlike her arc with Khal Drogo way back in S1.
    As for Jon compromising with Dany, that is the essence of his character. This ability to find middle ground; to weigh his options knowing there is never a perfect solution, is perhaps his greatest strength, throughout the entire story. Unless I am missing something, like every single chapter of his…

    I will remind you that these books (and the character within them) were written way before the “me, as well” movement to which I think you keep referring to…

  68. got_tv_fan: In fact, Daenerys fans see her as the only ruler and want her to get everything her heart’s desires. They see Jon as incidental or her submissive consort there to walk two steps behind her and keep house while she rules.

    I’be been busy today and haven’t read all the comments but I did just see this part. This is absolutely not “fact” nor true of all Daenerys fans. You may be pointing at “radical” character fans that only care about that individual character but that’s not how you wrote it. While I’ve very clearly made it known over the years that ASNAWP is my favorite, I do consider myself a fan of Daenerys, as well as Jon, Tyrion and others. As a pre-show reader I came into the show expecting J&D to get together. With that my hope has always been that they’d rule together at the end. I realize the chances of that are probably low in this particular story. Still, my hope is not a scenario of putting one above the other or repeatedly attempting to downgrade one because of a bias for the other.

  69. Mr Derp:
    Yes, the purpose he was brought back could easily be to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

    Besides, the conversation with Jon and Beric that you brought up ended with Jon agreeing that helping those that cannot help themselves is enough.“ The shield that guards the realms of men”. Being king would qualify.

    I am surprised you‘d think so. I mean every time this dude actually got into a position of leadership it was thrust upon him. Never once he applied for the job himself so to speak. Sure, as someone mentioned above he was tempted to take up on Stannis’ offer of getting Winterfell but it was the family seat that was held at the time by the Boltons, and he didn’t no matter how tempting it was. And yes, he was jealous of Robb’s Winterfell because he felt he didn’t belong where he should belong. It’s not like he would have ever acted on it.

    What I mean to say is, you’ve read this character and seem to objectively understand him, how Martin has written him, by the comments you’ve made through the years here and I’m just a bit surprised. Jon never once presented a real hunger for this power fans seem to desire for him or for them Jon is not the main hero. I think it would take a real re-write mid-series for him to suddenly want to rule a whole country that didn’t elect him simply because he’s the legitimate heir if we follow the Targaryan line.

    And going back to the Beric back and forth: I also thought that his conversation with Beric made it clear that he accepts the idea that is here to fight the Others, death being the enemy. The whole discussion actually starts with looking for purpose and Beric saying specifically: “I’m not fighting so some man or woman I barely know can sit on a throne made of swords.”

    Well, I didn’t mean to butt into the argument you’re having with other posters about Dany, but for what is worth I think you’ve got it right about the sacrifice and generally her.

  70. Sister Kisser:
    got_tv_fan,
    I will remind you that these books (and the character within them) were written way before the “me, as well” movement to which I think you keep referring to…

    You broke my heart right there. I know what you meant, but you reminded me that some books are not in fact written yet. However, Martin already set his end points regarding where the story goes on a paper napkin probably that he gave to David and Dan so you are completely right.

    Nice remark about how sharing power would actually be playing right into both characters’ development and/or traits.

  71. TormundsWoman:
    Shelle,

    My fave book scene with Jon & Mel at the Wall Don’t anybody @ me with “but she’s evil and 400 yrs old”! I shipped that with my whole heart

    Ahahaaa, yes!! 400 maybe, but just keep that necklace on and you won’t look a day over 25–and don’t tell me she’s evil!

    I’m hoping that if the direwolves are/were going to be of some crucial significance that the show has precluded, GRRM would’ve made that known early on and insisted that somehow the budget allow for more wolf-time. You might think that they’d be be easier to animate than the dragons, but I understand that fur is particularly difficult to render realistically…I remember watching the making-of featurettes for Monsters, Inc., and appreciating how long it took Pixar just to develop a way to make Sully’s fur look good. xD What with everything quoted in the article, I can see why we saw so much less than we’d have liked of the wolves all along. And if they’re going to have a fair amount of action in the final season, that’s just one more thing prolonging the time needed to create it…D; x-3

    As for Jon & Dany? I love them both. Dany sacrificed one of her children to save Jon & Co.–not exactly willingly, but she was clearly aware that they were all flying into grave danger. She didn’t expect or intend to lose one, but knows they aren’t invincible. She defied Tyrion’s plea to do nothing. She then swore they would fight the AotD together because she’d seen he was not lying or exaggerating. She wasn’t even asking him to bend the knee anymore; he finally did so willingly, because she’d proven herself a worthy queen. He does not act subservient. I don’t think that contemporary feminism has/had an influence on the story. *Fully* concurred with Mr. Derp, Young Dragon, TormundsWoman, & Sister Kisser.
    I could see her accepting that Jon is actually the rightful heir or some kind of power-sharing arrangement, but it does kinda make more sense that he cede it to her because she’s been fighting for the throne all along whilst he never wanted or believed that it was his destiny.

  72. TormundsWoman,

    I don’t think I said Jon wants to rule. In fact, I don’t think he does at all. What I said was that maybe he’d find some kind of acceptance to being ruler because that’s the best way he can help those that can’t help themselves, guard the realms of men, etc… He seemed to find some sort of peace with that notion when talking with Beric.

    As of right now, I have no idea what’s going to happen. I’m entertaining all possibilities until I find the one that makes the most sense. Previously, I was assuming Jon would be dead and so would Dany…and pretty much everyone else except for Sam, Sansa, Arya….but right now I’m just not so sure. I’m trying to use the Littlefinger school of fighting every battle in my mind so that nothing will surprise me 😉

  73. The funny thing is, I don’t even like Dany that much and I’ve stated as much in this thread, but because I stand up for her in one instance it automatically means that I’m a Dany superfan or something. That’s the kind of stuff I wish we’d get away from. It’s possible to have favorite characters and still be objective.

    My favorite character is Jon Snow by far.

  74. Shelle,

    If the TV show weren’t determined to promote strong female characters, why even have the entire storyline in Season 7 where Jon ends up ceding the North to Dany for no reason? It seems exactly why this storyline was added to Season 7, not because of any plot need. And yes, Jon does act quite submissive toward Daenerys, especially after he swears fealty to her. For instance, I suspect that we’ll see him address her as “Your Grace” rather than her name in Season 8 as he did in the finale despite them sleeping together and generally act as Jorah does around her. The writers seem very insistent on emphasizing that Jon is Daenerys’ servant, not her equal, in Season 7.

  75. Pigeon: To me, the scene where Jon gives him Longclaw without hesitation after so long (not to mention having saved his father years ago), and Jorah returning it meant a lot. If it is something Jorah appreciates, it’s respect.

    Great observation! I’d forgotten that.

  76. got_tv_fan,

    Wow, I don’t see it this way at all. I don’t think Jon was submissiveness or subservient, in any way. I think he genuinely sees this as the best path to survival for everyone. And he was very clear in expressing his distaste for that condition, in his conversations with Tyrion. He knew the risk. He knew that there would be fallout for a Northern King swearing to a Targaryen ancestor. He had personal misgivings. He wrestled with all of this (on the screen no less- where it is all vocalized and not simply internal thoughts)
    He made the choice to swear to her because he knew that was the best chance for anyone’s survival. This is not subservience, as you say, nor were these choices made for no reason, as should be evident here.

    Also. I am not sure why having strong female characters necessarily means having weak male characters. I don’t see things in such black or white parameters, in anything.

  77. Ugh. Phone typing sucks. Submissive*. Above. And targaryen ancestor should read targaryen outsider*

    I guess I can’t edit these posts for typos

  78. TormundsWoman,

    I apologize! THAT solemn reminder was not intended. Thinking about how long ago any of this writing was published is a… depressing venture. And I was firmly in the camp several years back of- “have faith, give him a break, he’ll get em done”

    I fully agree with your previous comment to mr. Derp about Jon- not ever actually wanting or seeking power, but reluctantly accepting it as bestowed upon him by others (and incidentally, probing very adept at making those necessary, difficult decisions)

  79. Whoa, that was quite the tangential conversation…

    I’m SO happy that TBTB confirmed Ghost will be be doing cool things in Season 8. Best news I had all day!

  80. Sister Kisser,

    It is actually subservience because he is no longer Daenerys equal, but her subject. He has no ability to defy her and he can no longer set strategy or act as a ruler or leader based on their current unequal relationship. In return, he got no special concessions or guarantees. And I’m not sure what Jon-Tyrion conversation you are discussing? I don’t think there was such a conversation in Season.

    And I agree that male characters don’t need to be weakened for female characters to be heroes. However, for whatever reason, the show chose to go with Daenerys as the alpha leader and Jon as a submissive follower. There were ways to write Season 7 that would have made their relationship one of equality rather than a queen-servant one. But it is a stretch to argue that Jon-Daenerys as written is supposed to be such a relationship. Daenerys imprisons, threatens and bullies Jon and Jon formally swears fealty to her as a servant. That is why I’m skeptical of any tidbits about the Starks/ Jon being important in the final season or the direwolves being featured prominently. I also don’t think the writers would ever have Daenerys give up her claim or “share” it. That seems very illogical for a ruler with vast armies to do so as well as out of step with the current environment.

  81. got_tv_fan,

    Jon was never Dany’s “equal”. Not in terms of two sovereign rulers, and their respective assets. When they first met, she had a vast Dothraki Army, the Unsullied regiments, a large naval force, oh, and three massive Dragons.

    Any act of concession that you view as “subservience” was really a decision of his born of calculated risk, involving his fealty in return for her protection and her resources. He knew this would damage his standing among the Northern lords. I am sure we will see some (brief) discussion of this upon their return to Winterfell. This will no doubt involve the Sansa/Jon power dynamic. My suspicion is this will find resolution very quickly, possibly at the moment the WW’s descend upon WF. This reality will render any bickering a pointless waste of time and energy. This is just an argument about titles and fealty- all of which are moot in light of the greater war on their doorstep.

    As for special concessions on Dany’s part. Well. Jon negotiated the mining of dragonglass, as well as the imminent deployment of her armies and dragons to the north. He got everything he needed. The conversation between he and Tyrion that I referenced took place on the steps to dragonstone- Tyrion pleading with him to bend the knee, and Jon expressing his reservations. Furthermore, it would be a drastic departure from his character to ultimately resist her lead, given all the circumstances one could point to in Westeros telling him to do otherwise.

    Further evidence for the fact that she sees him as an equal is found in the simple fact that they are now sharing a cabin and getting it on. She has let him in, in a way that seems vastly different from her relationship with Daario.

    What’s your hangup? I don’t see how, in any way, this has anything to do with “the current environment”

  82. Damn! If I’d known a post about Ghost would devolve into a Jon subservience to Dany thread, I would’ve derailed it to ASNAWP a long time ago. 👸🏻

    Or at least forecast how Arya would greet Jon after all this time.

    https://gifer.com/i/Acxt.gif

  83. Sister Kisser,

    Jon was never Dany’s “equal”. Not in terms of two sovereign rulers, and their respective assets. When they first met, she had a vast Dothraki Army, the Unsullied regiments, a large naval force, oh, and three massive Dragons.

    So you will agree that it is a subservient relationship. Not only does Dany have vast resources, but she also treats Jon like trash. I didn’t know that bullying, imprisoning, and abusing your supposed lover was the sign of an equal relationship. But I’m glad that you at least agree with me on this. We can put to rest this whole Jon is Dany’s equal thing. It is very clear that there is one ruler and one servant.

    Any act of concession that you view as “subservience” was really a decision of his born of calculated risk, involving his fealty in return for her protection and her resources.

    He didn’t get any special concessions for him selling out the North to Daenerys.

    He knew this would damage his standing among the Northern lords. I am sure we will see some (brief) discussion of this upon their return to Winterfell. This will no doubt involve the Sansa/Jon power dynamic

    He should be deposed.

    This is just an argument about titles and fealty- all of which are moot in light of the greater war on their doorstep.

    It matters in the end. Or don’t you think that the political settlement matters in the end?

    As for special concessions on Dany’s part. Well. Jon negotiated the mining of dragonglass, as well as the imminent deployment of her armies and dragons to the north. He got everything he needed

    She allowed him to mine dragonglass in a castle that wasn’t hers? And she went North to save everyone from a real threat that would kill her? What assurances did Jon get that she wasn’t a cruel dictator who would oppress the North? It seems like none.

    Further evidence for the fact that she sees him as an equal is found in the simple fact that they are now sharing a cabin and getting it on. She has let him in, in a way that seems vastly different from her relationship with Daario.

    Having sex with someone doesn’t mean they are equals. In many relationships, the dynamics are that where one party is much more powerful than the other. Daenerys is a queen and Jon is her docile servant. Do you really want to argue that because she didn’t order him to sleep with her that he is somehow her equal? As you said yourself, he isn’t her equal. He is her docile servant and even more of a docile than Daario ever was. Do you think that Daario would ever call Daenerys ‘Your Grace’ in a simpering fashion like Jon does and will continue to do in Season 8? It is such a submissive relationship. Daenerys is an emotionally abusive witch to Jon, but this is supposed to be an equal relationship?

    What’s your hangup? I don’t see how, in any way, this has anything to do with “the current environment”

    I’m annoyed that the North and Jon are basically secondary worthless characters so that HBO can promote strong female characters.

  84. got_tv_fan,

    Respectfully, TLDR. Well. No. I read it. I’m just not going to respond to any of it, I can’t be bothered to keep up his game with you. I think we view the world very differently, and that’s ok. I can live with that. Is this an act of subservience? Nope. I’m just picking my battles.

    I said above that I want to see ghost shred some spiders big as hounds. I realize now that those spiders will be better saved for the long night prequel.

    I am now thinking I want to see Ghost nab a leg bone from a white walker, and run off with it as the grateful dead’s ‘Touch of Grey’ plays in the background. I hope against my better common sense that Ghost survives.

  85. Sadly my money would be on Ghost returning and fighting in the battle with the White Walkers then being killed off a bit like Summer. In the books I suspect Jon will Warg into Ghost and be brought back by Melisandre that way.

  86. got_tv_fan:
    Shelle,

    If the TV show weren’t determined to promote strong female characters…

    Yeah, I’m with the others…I just don’t see any of it that way.
    Their power being unequal doesn’t make Jon a “servant.” When they first met the relationship was tense, if not slightly hostile (I did like the way Jon sarcastically said “your grace” and “I don’t know you.”) Both refused to back down. Jon ignored Tyrion’s urging to bend the danged knee for quite a while. As the season progressed their respect and concern for one another increased. They became more willing to talk, to listen, to try to understand each other and make compromises. Jon only recognized her as his queen after she had risked her life and the lives of all three of her dragons/children, who are one of her greatest strengths and most important friends in the world. He felt gratitude, admiration, and respect, and she softened, knowing that he had been completely genuine and truthful all along. She’s stepped back from her entitled cockiness and remembered that she truly wants to deserve the willing loyalty of everyone who calls her their queen. He knows that if the northern lords are wise, they too will understand who she is and why he’s done this. Particularly when the AotD come calling, which’ll be sooner rather than later. I heard no simpering, no figurative crawling around bowing and asking how he might serve his glorious and flawless queen. :/ Even in finally “submitting” near the end (which required some extreme circumstances to bring about), he didn’t act like a wimpy little puppy dog or anything. I can see criticizing some of Dany’s behavior, especially last season, and especially earlier in it…I can see thinking that she wasn’t always fair or could’ve handled things more diplomatically or whatever…I think you can criticize everybody. But calling her an “emotionally abusive witch” and Jon “docile” seems a bit of a stretch.

  87. got_tv_fan:
    Sister Kisser,

    I’m annoyed that the North and Jon are basically secondary worthless characters so that HBO can promote strong female characters.

    if you haven’t discovered strong male characters in the North by now or at least noticed how the show took seven seasons to illustrate the importance of the North for both history and future of Westeros, i wonder which show you’ve been watching before writing about GoT. no offense meant.

  88. Jack Bauer 24:
    Great news! So they’ve started VFX work which is encouraging.

    I thought they started VFX work back in April of this year? Genuine question as I didn’t think they had to wait for all filming to finish before starting on this, even if they had to make a few re-shoots. Also Ramin is meant to work on the musical score this month so we are likely not too far from a trailer now.

  89. I know if anyone has said this in above comments ..

    I would be extremely disappointed if they doesn’t have a scene where dany rubs ghost and ghost being close to dany …
    Like they did with jon and Drogon

  90. Dragonbringer,

    I’d be surprised if they don’t have a scene showing Dany meeting Ghost, so yeah I’m with you on that.

    Also nice to see you commenting again!

  91. zandru:
    In my ignorance, I would assume it would take a lot fewer special effects and editing to put in a dog-wolf “actor” than to create a dragon out of mere pixels and imagination, and for a single dragon appearance, you could have a whole pack of direwolves. Perhaps I’m wrong? More likely, B&W discounted the importance of the direwolf arc, particularly the direwolf dreams and how the Stark children were wargs. So nearly all of this storyline has been cut out, much like Dorne’s.

    The “wargness” of the other Stark kids was excluded to make Bran more distinctly special. As for why the direwolves don’t appear much, at the very least as animal companions, it’s got at least something to do with limited storytelling opportunities; if the connection isn’t spiritual or magical, they can only do actiony stuff, or emotional reunions and farewells, which is basically what we do get.

    But, even then, you may ask, why do we get them so rarely? Why aren’t they just included in the background of scenes, like the dragons often are? Well, forgive me for saying so, but you weren’t wrong in that your assumption that the direwolves being easier to do is indeed ignorant. It’s precisely because the direwolves are real that it’s extremely difficult to include them in scenes. The dragons, as CG creatures, can do exactly what the animators want. The direwolves can do whatever the wranglers can make the wolf actors do, which honestly isn’t much; it’s well known that working with animals takes MUCH longer, because as trained as they may be they aren’t that great at following instructions, let alone making their actions look good for the camera.

    Then there’s the VFX issue! Due to the relatively small size of real wolves, they are shot against green screens, completely divorced from the real sets, and then added into them digitally, at a larger scale. This creates three main issues: hair makes it difficult to distinguish between the body and the green background that must be “painted out” (green screens exist precisely for the purpose of making this “painting out” process easier), which usually results in hair looking blurry (all the more so with a furry creature!); since animals aren’t very cooperative and every movement can’t be planned out, often the camera perspectives of the wolf green screen footage and the real set footage don’t match very well, which along with the aforementioned blurry edges can easily make us feel the direwolf isn’t really there; and finally there’s the simple fact that the larger you make a creature (and the direwolves are pretty gigantic by now), the more disproportionate it will appear, as large creatures have different proportions to their smaller counterparts (and they have more fur, not just thicker hair, unlike these digitally enlarged wolves), which contributes to the feeling that they aren’t really there on the scene.

    If all of this is true, why not just make the direwolves CGI, just like they do with the dragons? Because dragons are fictional hairless creatures, unlike wolves. Recreating a mammal faithfully is MUCH more difficult and expensive, not only because of all the fur physics simulations involved, but also because wolves are real animals and we’d instinctively know if any detail was incorrect, from the model itself to its animations. They easily fall into what’s called “the uncanny valley”. Dragons don’t have these problems.

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