“If you’ve met one Targaryen, you’ve met them all.” – Anonymous (ok… it was me)
Well well, where the hell have you guys been? Welcome back to the unadulterated, unflattering, Unsullied recaps of un-epic proportions. This is where people that don’t have a clue what they just watched or who these characters are come to commiserate on the feastings served by the good folks at HBO and the infamously crashing HBOMAX.
Throw on your best blonde wig and join me for a look at Episode 1 of “The Real Housewives of Westeros.”
As per the norm, we begin with disclosures and formal intros…
My name is Oz of House Oz. I haven’t read (any of) the books. I haven’t looked at any other reviews (yet) and to be honest, I really don’t care to. My thoughts are my own and they may or may not be woke because that quantification seems to change daily and I can’t keep up.
What I am is a pretty normal person who has some weird eccentricities. I loved Game of Thrones and was fanatical when it was airing. I even liked Season 8 although I believe it could have been infinitely better than it was. But if you’ve read my musings before, you know that I was never here for the ending… I’m here for the journey.
As such, we begin a new one with House of the Dragon which has Sapochnik involved and that fact alone makes it worth checking out. But it was not an easy sell.
Out of all the Great Houses depicted in Essos and Westeros, the Targs were my least favorite. Viserys in GoT was a prick who we enjoyed watching die via hot, gold cake batter applied to scalp. And Dany was just Dany who didn’t smile much and took herself way too seriously and proceeded to burn the motherfucker down.
Obviously, this gave me doubts heading into this new story. Are all Targs as drab as the ones we already know? The answer is almost entirely, “yes.” That said, the premiere did enough to pique my interest and tune in next week though there are issues at hand (as well as with THE Hand).
By the way, I’m not going to recap every single thing that took place in the ep. As a commenter once told me, “we all watched the show.” Fair enough.
Wait… no opening theme? “Burning Down the House” would have been just fine.
Instead, we get narration and some text setting up where we are and some context regarding the party we are about to enter. And if you don’t know what kind of party you are going to, you could easily end up doing jello shots upside down while strangers hold your feet. So I appreciated the info.
Then, it’s immediately Dragon Time. I don’t know about you, but I didn’t watch GoT because of dragons. I watched it because of the drama and the politics and the interaction and the dialogue.
Yet, they have their place. The dragons looked good. The dragon riders not so much.
We quickly meet Rhaenyra who will apparently be one of the main focal points moving forward (and who completely looks the part). She’s followed around by a cool guard named Harrold Westerling and a friend named Alicent Hightower (daughter of the Hand if I followed accurately). Alicent will surely die soon because remember the rule of Westeros: hot people not named Jon Snow die here.
Momma Queen Aemma is preggers again trying to give King Viserys (another Viserys because that’s not confusing) a male heir and is DONE WITH THIS PREGNANCY SHIT. Also, the only people that are fit to rule are male, white dudes with blonde hair and I’m sure that’s not part of the fucking problem in this world.
Anyway, King Viserys meets with some kick-ass looking guy named Corlys Velaryon (who didn’t speak Valyrian) and the Hand of the King, Otto Hightower. They got kingdom problems. I guess supply-chain issues happen in Westeros too.
Speaking of issues… does Viserys have Greyscale? There was that quick scene with cat puke oozing from his back. Just curious. Anyway…
Then we meet asshole Daemon Targ (we actually see his asshole later) perched up on the old Iron Throne which, let’s be honest, has to be a HUGE liability to whomever insures the Red Keep due to the enormity of sharp objects as part of their Workers Comp package. Pretty obvious where this guy thinks he ought to be sitting in the near future.
I do appreciate the recognizable objects from GoT like the godswood tree. Are Rhaenyra and Alicent a thing or are they just friendly friends? Not that it matters, but it might. Rhaenyra essentially states she has no interest in being the heir but who wouldn’t want to sit on a chair of knives?
Daemon has been assigned to the City Watch goldcloaks who he instructs to gently interrogate and kindly investigate those who are thought to be potential criminals and let’s talk about gratuitous violence shall we?
I did happen to see something where HBO basically said that there would be no gratuitous violence or sex in HOTD. They stayed true to this promise for a good 20 minutes or so. I have no interest in getting in a conversation about what is gratuitous or nay, but I will say that this is adult television and Westeros is a violent place where sometimes people get naked and/or castrated. They kill people. They play hide the sausage while others watch. They explore hidden valleys. They bring noodles to the spaghetti house. They partake in the dirty hokey pokey.
It is what it is and it’s fine. But don’t say you’re not going to do something and then do it. After all, this is the HBO recipe for success in increasing viewership. It’s the Triple B Recipe… butts, boobs and blood. After they get you hooked, they back off on the 3B.
John Wick didn’t have to have loads of gratuitous violence but because it did, I’m sure John Wick Chapter 14 is in the works. Daemon didn’t have to be shown pounding a lady only for us to discover he wasn’t in the mood. But they did. Good. Depict the world in which they live and let us choose what we want to watch. We’re all adults here (or at least we should be). End rant. My apologies.
Time for a tourney! Start the damn joust before I piss myself. Enough of the bloody pomp.
Daemon joins the fray in what has to be one of the most badass suits of armor ever created and defeats another Hightower (son of the Hand I think… what could possibly go wrong).
Shortly after, a good-looking dude named Criston Cole gets in on the action and surprisingly knocks Daemon’s dick into the dirt. Criston Cole will surely die soon because remember the rule of Westeros: hot people not named Jon Snow die here.
Meanwhile, Momma Aemma has gone into labor and it’s not going well. It’s also safe to assume that the term C-Section was not named after the expertise of the graduates of the Citadel. The Queen dies as does the baby boy who was to be the heir of Viserys. And shit that scene was brutal.
A funeral ensues and we hear the famous Targ word for “make big bonfire” from Rhaenyra.
After giving the family a good hour and a half or so to grieve, the small council presses Viserys on naming an heir. As a result, Otto sends Alicent to “cheer up” the King. And yuck… what is wrong with these people? Luckily they seemed to opt for a bedtime story instead.
Daemon and Viserys face off when Viserys calls him “Heir for a day.” Of course, that goes over like a lead dragon and Daemon is asked to leave the premises immediately without a refund. I’m sure we will never see him again.
Rhaenyra is named the heir, everyone pledges, and they all lived happily ever after. The End. HBO lied to us. There is no season. Just one episode. Hope you enjoyed it!
Initial Thoughts: Good enough to hold my attention which continues to get shorter. For a first episode, I thought it accomplished what it needed to without confusing the average, Unsullied viewer too much. There was definitely enough intrigue and action to see what transpires in the coming weeks. And let’s be honest: most “first episodes” are there to set up the storyline for the next 7-9 episodes while making the necessary introductions and getting to know the characters as well as the setting.
Of course, we all know the setting. This was more about character psychology and temperament and making the average viewer understand who these people are and why we should give a damn. It’s different from GoT with some sprinkles of familiarity and most likely accomplished what it set out to do. There were just enough House names, banners, and the godswood to remind you of where you are.
That said, yes it had its issues. The dialogue seemed choppy at times and don’t get me started on the dragon riders. But I also don’t make a habit of judging a show after one premiere episode. If I did, I wouldn’t watch much TV.
What I Missed: Some shred of comedy. There are no stand-up comedian Targaryens. That is understood. But every king needs a fool. Every kingdom needs a village idiot. Every Hound needs a Lommy. What the fuck is a Lommy?
See you all next week for another fun-filled recap of “Whose Kingdom Is It Anyway?”
Until then, enjoy your week, press on, do something kind for someone, and may there always be peace in your realm.
Follow Oz on Twitter
🤣🤣🤣 So glad to be back with the great Oz of Thrones and his Unsullied recap! Loved everything you said!🙌🏻 I too will keep watching, it was entertaining enough!
“What I Missed: Some shred of comedy. ”
Thank you! That’s exactly what I’ve been saying, but everyone got all pissy at me for saying it.
The show could use a bit of levity. We’ll see what they come up with moving forward.
I don’t think Viserys called Daemon “heir for a day.” I think Daemon called Baelon (Viserys’s dead son) “heir for a day.” That’s why Viserys was so pissed.
With recaps like these who needs friends? Boy did I miss these.
I’ve never participated in this fandom as an Unsullied before! Quite the novel experience.
No Oz, the problems of Westeros have nothing to do with the heirs having to be “male, white dudes with blonde hair”.
Monarchies are flawed regardless of who gets to be in charge because one person (or moron) gets to make all the decisions, so don’t try to make this a race or gender issue.
Thank you for the recap, Oz! I’m kind of sticking to my own bubble when it comes to watching HotD but I may pop up to read your recaps, considering I’ve always loved them reading in past. I really loved this episode myself and I’m so looking forward for more.
Regarding your point about violence, I don’t remember HBO really making statement about this show toning down violence and sex in general (I may be wrong though). What I remember is the actress Olivia Cooke making statement this show “won’t feature egregious violence towards women”. And then there was another statement from I-can’t-remember-who that graphic sexual violence will be toned down. Considering we’re dealing with truly messed up story, I’m glad HBO is not going all PG though.
Loved it.
Only real downside for me was that Daemon actor may as well be Ramsey Snow.
“the only people that are fit to rule are male, white dudes with blonde hair and I’m sure that’s not part of the fucking problem in this world.”
Well-said. I’ll watch the show, but I’ll never stop thinking of the most boring, privileged, entitled family in Westeros or Essos as the Targ-Aryans. Looking forward for as much development as possible of secondary and tertiary characters.
Leylos,
Thanks for the feedback! I’m well aware of various hierarchies and how they operate. I’m pretty sure there would be almost no plot for Ep. 1 if you remove the issue of wanting/needing a male heir. Hate that you missed that point. Firannion obviously got it. But really appreciate you taking the time to read and comment. Come back often!
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Thank you Erik and good to hear from you. Feel free to hang in this bubble with us whenever you’re up for it!
Thanks for the recap! Plenty of table-setting exposition, and relevant violence too. The repeated visual contrast, between the needless bloodletting of the tournament and the necessary bloodletting of childbirth, was amazing. We saw how this show is in good hands, right from the start.
I found some humor. At the tourney, someone (Alicent Hightower?) dismisses a contestant with the line, “I’ve never heard of House Bolton.” 😉
Let us all recall how GoT started: three armed dudes sally into the dark forest, find body parts from a massacre of civilians, and then die violently themselves: two in the forest immediately, and then one later at the hands of a fellow we believe to be a major protagonist. Welcome, enjoy the show, and please be glad there’s no blood on your couch. Yet.
Nice to see you back, Oz!
Agreed. The episode definitely needed a Tyrion-like wry joke or double-entendre’ to break up the tension.
That being said, I got a laugh out of the Prince That Was Promised nonsense. They won’t trick me into watching episodes multiple times this go around, searching for prophecy clues!!
Oz of Thrones,
That was an extraordinarily gracious and civil reply you wrote…
Wasn’t Viserys kinda funny (up until half his immediate family perished)?
Gotta say so far Daemon and Viserys are the best part of HotD. They both looked like they wouldn’t fit in Westeros from promotional photos and trailers, yet they fit right in.
Tensor the Mage,
”I found some humor. At the tourney, someone (Alicent Hightower?) dismisses a contestant with the line, “I’ve never heard of House Bolton.” 😉
Ha! It’s almost as if Sansa’s parting prediction to Ramsay Bolton had retroactive effect.
S6e9, Sansa to Ramsay Bolton [at 1:56]
https://youtu.be/4HXgHJS31H8
“Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear. All memory of you will disappear.”
If Game of Thrones taught us anything, it’s that all you have to do is give the throne to whomever has the best story. Viserys really should just have a contest for best story and crown the winner.
I’m sure all parties involved would go along with that and would make for great t.v.
Oh, I forgot to add:
While I’m hooked and will keep watching, it feels to me the VFX is worse than in GoT (could be recency bias though) and I’m realy not a fan of bringing the same old story point about White Walkers and the Long Night.
Why the heck would you remind viewers about the annoying destruction of this feared threat by one jumping psychopath within one episode?! How can I take this seriously?
Hello. And Bye.
TOIVA,
Really? I thought the close up of Daemons dragon was the best CGI I’ve ever seen. I thought maybe they found a real dragon for filming.
Mr Derp,
Really? When did GOT teach us that? The only rulers who were elected were Jon, who had already demonstrated leadership abilities, and Bran, who was elected for being the world’s memory and for having access to a treasure trove of knowledge.
TOIVA,
I also felt the VFX was weaker. However, I highly doubt The Long Night will come into play. They were simply trying to connect the two stories.
As for the end of the White Walkers, they were not defeated in one episode. There had been several battles with them throughout the series. And when they did finally fall, they were defeated by the greatest army Westeros had ever seen, armed with a mountain of dragon glass and other White Walker killing weapons, two dragons, a fire witch, a tree god, and a Faceless assasin. It was truly epic! Why wouldn’t they remind the audience of it?
• That’s got me thinking: Is HotD treating GoT as canon, eg. the portrayal of the WW and Long Night, opposed to the books? Is GRRM on board with this? Even some of the little Easter Eggs thus far seem to be callbacks to GoT show-only details.
• Believe me, I did not like the Arya ex machina to take out NK.
The showrunners’ explanation that “it just didn’t seem right” for Jon Snow to be the one to do it, and it should be someone you don’t expect, made the ending seem abrupt and arbitrary.
(Really though? “One jumping psychopath” ?)
Uh. No. Bran was elected because “Who has a better story than Bran the Broken?”
It was not because he was “the world’s memory” or had “access to a treasure trove of knowledge.”
Ten Bears,
Tyrion literally said “he’s the world’s memory” when he was making his pitch.
Ten Bears,
Obviously you are not a Jane Austen fan or you’d know that a good memory is unpardonable in such cases! Leave the man alone. He’s trying to move on from GoT. And you and Mr. Derp make it impossible for him to do so. 😛
Good recap Oz.
Differ on the Goldcloaks brutality as gratuitous. Probably the perfect display of abuse of power to show what Daemon is capable of. A scene that also led to the set up of complete dislike between him and Otto Hightower. More effective than Otto simply bitching about Daemon’ behavior to the king in the council.
It will also explain why the rank and file Goldcloaks are so loyal to him too later on, since he picked these man and trained them to be as ruthless and prone to excesses as he was.
Arya was not an Ex Machina. An example of an Ex Machina would be Hot Pie appearing out of nowhere to take out the Night King, as the last time we saw him he was in the Riverlands. Arya was in the battle and we saw her run off to take care of the Night King after Melisandre gave her a push. We even saw the moment she entered the godswoods.
Arya taking out the Night King made complete sense and was perfect for her story. D&D absolutely made the right decision.
Oh, I’m not trying to move on at all. Why would I? It seems like the people who would want to move on are the people who were disappointed in the ending. I, for one, don’t mind continuing the GOT discussion. I welcome it, even.
Young Dragon,
”…D&D absolutely made the right decision.”
Life Goal: Find someone who’ll defend me like YD defends D&D.
Ten Bears,
D&D don’t need defending. Their work defends itself.
But would you always be forever grateful? 🤪
Young Dragon,
Good heavens! It was a tongue in cheek comment.
Regular posters on WotW at this point already know your views on GoT and the end. We all know that you do not shy from expressing them either, whenever the opportunity presents itself or you feel someone is criticizing it and you don’t agree. No one really expects you to be other than you!
Honestly I’m not sure we would survive the shock should you decide to be any different lol
Ten Bears,
GRRM is the one who told them to put into the show the bit about Aegon dreaming about The Long Night. Most of the ASOIAF readers are taking this as George willing to give a spoiler from his books.
It is an odd one that many of those readers are still debating. Because it does seem like he is ret-conning some of the prior stuff in the books by doing this. It becomes Aegon desiring to conquer Westeros and set up a Targaryen dynasty to prepare for The Long Night.
Which seems weird and clunky and calls into question what Game of Thrones did at the end. The ending they gave us of the Long Night doesn’t match what he told them to put into this show. That the only way to defeat it is to seat a Targ on the throne. Well that didn’t happen and yet they were defeated.
So read into that as you may I guess.
mopfer,
While Daenerys wasn’t sitting on the throne at the time, the army that defeated the White Walkers and put a stop to the Long Night was united under a Targaryen. That matches the spirit of what House of the Dragon told us about Aegon’s dream.
mopfer,
In prior interviews over the years, GRRM has hinted there was more to Aegon coming than conquest so I don’t know how much of a retcon it would be. Aegon coming in knowledge of the Others and for conquest can both be motivations, I think.
GoT also diverged from ASOIAF quite a bit, especially when it came to magic and elements in ASOIAF like the Others, so I don’t imagine the visions for those stories would be similar for GRRM vs. how this story was approached in GoT. I’m really really not wanting to start a books vs. show or s8 war, believe me, it just makes sense to me that this stuff would differ in GRRM’s mind vs. how it was done GoT.
mopfer,
Is that what it said or did it say a targ had to be a leader to untie people against the enemy to the north?
Adrianacandle,
Do you think it diverged that much? I agree on the magic and fantasy elements but I think basic story is still the same. I think the white walkers will still be defeated at winter fell. Maybe through the horn? I think a stark maybe rickon will be king or queen. I think Boltons will be defeated eventually by the army that Davos will get through his journey to find rickon. I think dany will go mad seeing fake aegon getting pics and support and not her. I’m also thinking that maybe the kingdom will be more divided in the books than the show. Like I think someone will rule out of kings landing but over a small portion. I think the vale river lands and north will be under a stark. The iron islands under a Greyjoy. The crown land the westerlands and storm lands and maybe the reach out of kings landing. And dorne will be separate.
Stew,
Oh, I do think it diverged greatly — I think the two are completely different beasts at this point, especially when it comes to the Others — who are far more mysterious, elusive, and much more of an unseen force who brings this eery cold and silence with them in the books. But there’s also somehow more to them, like an entire culture unto themselves. And when it comes to characters, while some characters may have similarities, I think there are a ton of differences as well. I just don’t think the books and the show are the same beast and haven’t really been since around season 3. I consider them different worlds with their own strengths and weaknesses.
There’s also that a quite a few characters and stories have been culled from the show and I think those make quite a few differences as well. I think the Others have kind of become something else in the show as well — more corporeal, more action based, something more tangible people could root against. As for Dany — I, for one, don’t think Dany will go mad and while I do speculate she has some dark decisions to make in future books, I think the same is true of all characters, including the Starks and Jon. I think Winds will be a very dark book for all.
I think the books may hit some of the same beats — but in very different ways and perhaps with different characters (for instance, bells may be a trigger but not for Dany but for Jon Connington). I do think there will be a King Bran though because I think that has been confirmed from coming from GRRM.
That all said, these are simply my own speculations and I know as much as anyone else here 🙂
Adrianacandle,
For your Jon connington theory. Is that he will find out that aegon isn’t rhehears son amd will go crazy over that? Cause I can buy into that
This may be an unpopular take, and some may call it sexist. I AM going to make this a gender issue:
I believe women are naturally better decision makers and better leaders. Unlike men who are pompous blowhards and self-aggrandizing, orange-tinted buffoons, most women seem to have a greater capacity for empathy and fact-based, deliberative thinking.
I have seen first-hand how dangerous jackasses in power can be. (Full disclosure: My state’s Governor is Ron “Joffrey” DeSantis.)
I wish we had someone smart, younger and female in charge, like Kaja Kallas, Prime Minister of Estonia, or (my political celebrity crush) Sanna Marin, Prime Minister of Finland.
PS Unrelated – or maybe related – note: Mass shooters are rarely if ever women. Why is that? I wonder if predispositions to rage and violence are generally a guy thing?
Stew,
I don’t really have any kind of a specific theory in mind or anything, just general freeform speculation and the like 🙂 I was more thinking of Jon Con’s past experience with the Battle of the Bells, something he’s haunted by, if that makes sense!
Adrianacandle,
”I think the Others have kind of become something else in the show as well — more corporeal, more action based, something more tangible people could root against.”
I wasn’t rooting against them. They’re the victims, not the villains in the story.* They just look scary, and they have been demonized – just like people of different races and origins have been vilified as “the Others” throughout human history.
* Half-kidding. You know my tinfoil theory about this…
Injecting this new nugget about closely-held Targ family secrets passed down from generation to generation, pertaining to premonitions about an existentialist threat arising in the future, might explain a lot that GRRM had deliberately left ambiguous thus far. (However, trying to reconcile the books! and show! storylines, especially as to the WWs/Others, is probably a futile exercise.)
I may have speculated about this already: It’s always seemed to me that GRRM deliberately left Prince Rhaegar’s actions and motivations unexplained or ambiguous.
Let me pose a hypothetical….
– to be cont. –
Sorry. Gotta jump off. 6:02 pm
Ten Bears,
Yes, or a woman like Hillary Clinton or Madeleine It-Was-Worth-It Albright. As fine a specimen as one can find.
Adrianacandle,
I agree that the show and the books have become different, but I actually liked that the show went its own way. I was not a fan of Feast and Dance at all and couldn’t connect with any of the new characters. I can’t say I missed any of the cut characters from the show.
As for the Others/White Walkers, the White Walkers were also mysterious until Hardhome. Once the books start focusing on the Others more, I don’t see any indication they will be different from the show, though it’s possible.
Daenerys didn’t go mad in the show either, she made a conscious decision to burn down King’s Landing. I see her doing the same in the books.
Apologies, I “kinda forgot” about the heated post I made here… (sorry, LUL, it’s true though)
First off, I don’t wanna forget about GoT, most of it was awesome (and Viserys reminds me of Robert more than I expected and that is part of why I like the character). But this secret Targaryens have apparently been carrying from monarch to monarch just reminds me of the worst decisions GoT made in its run.*
Somehow I hoped the showrunners would be painfully aware of the risks of stepping into that old controversy…
Secondly, this prophecy makes it appear as if the Targaryen conquest and rule was in any way justified, which for some reason simply angers me to no end.
Thirdly, my mention of the VFX not being up to snuff could also be due to me not having seen it on the best of screens just yet (and that recency bias I already mentioned). Hope that fixes it in the end.
And last, I stand by my claim that the greatest threat Planetos has seen and that people apparently had premonition dreams for centuries about was dealt with in one episode. The previous encounters (definitely not battles) only resulted in one side retreating ever further south and the the other side marching on.
And for the whole cost of one Karsi, Viserion, Jorah and Theon, this cataslysmic threat has vanished. All it took was the head honcho tripping and falling on a rock for the whole faction to disappear into thin air. (And no, I’m not bying that only the catspaw dagger was the one and only chosen item to be able to affect the Night king, because that makes it even dumber still – Why would it be that dagger? What does it have to do with the Night king? Sure doesn’t look like it’s crafted by the children of the forest…)
As an aside (and I’m sorry if this is too far off topic already), I do not blame D&D for the GoT final season problems, really. Even less now after seeing somewhere that apparently GRRMartin wanted GoT to go for 13 seasons or something. It’s fully understandable that D&D wanted to end it as fast as possible if such presure to keep going was targetted at them.
It’s just unfortunate that lead to a creative falling out and inevitably a rushed and messed up ending.
*It’s funny that as much as I hated that very rushed and easy victory against the White Walkers, it just had to come at the hands of the most ridiculous character in the show at that point. A character that can sleep off multiple stab wounds in the stomach by a trained assassin followed by a parkour chase through the city…
Yeah, Arya from that point forward was the stupidest part of GoT for me (even over the Dornish “adventure”) until the last season.
They just managed to bring pretty much al the weak points of the show up to what should have been the grand finale.
All that aside, let’s hope HotD sticks to its own characters, doesn’t do anything as dumb as I’ve mentioned above and we should have a great show on our hands!
Regardless of whether or not the Targs making a family heirloom of Aegon’s dragon dream about needing to prevent the triumph of a cold and dark force from the North was a retcon or not, I’m totally here for the timeliness of it. The producers and writers of the show could hardly have foreseen that American audiences, at least, would be thinking a great deal right now about the tradition of outgoing presidents entrusting incoming ones with certain extremely sensitive secrets, such as nuclear codes, and about what can happen when someone assumes that office who places personal gain above national security considerations. I think it adds extra resonance to the plot point of this closely held family knowledge. All art is contextual, after all.
I also suspect this Targ family secret has been rattling around in the back of GRRM’s head for a long time, and that this simply seemed as good a time as any for the reveal, since it was a convenient way to tie the two show narratives together. I totally don’t buy into the suggestion that he’s retooling his story in any major way to backpedal from the backlash among fans against S8. Although he may be a gardener/pantser in his writing process, and will incorporate new ideas as they occur to him, I just have to laugh at the notion that he’s going, “Oh noes, I have to change everything around so people won’t get mad at me the way they did at D&D!” He has already had to live with lots of fans being mad at him for writing Feast and Dance differently from the first three books, and subsequently with lots more being mad at him for writing Winds too slowly and meticulously in an effort to avoid comparable criticism of the content and style. Many storylines will play out differently from where D&D took them, but not because the author changed his mind about any of the major outcomes.
TOIVA,
I have no idea why people continue to push the false claim that D&D ended GOT prematurely. They did not. When they mapped out the series, they realized that 70ish episodes was what they needed to tell this story. This is proven by an interview they gave back in 2014.
Again, the White Walkers were not defeated in one episode. Those encounters you mentioned were fights against the White Walkers, fights that the living had lost. There had been multiple battles against the White Walkers. The Battle of Winterfell was simply the biggest and the final one.
Easy victory? Jon and Daenerys formed the largest army Westeros has ever seen at Winterfell, armed them to the teeth with dragon glass and other wight/White Walker killing weapons, had two dragons, a fire witch, a tree god, and a Faceless assasin and they still almost lost. That was not an easy victory. The living were lucky to be alive.
You may find Arya to be ridiculous but she’s a very popular character. Many characters in television series and movies survive knife wounds, so that wasn’t at all strange.
GOT wasn’t rushed at all. By the time season 8 rolled around, they had whittled the storylines down to two, both of which that had been built up over the previous seasons. They were executed perfectly.
Young Dragon,
”As for the Others/White Walkers, the White Walkers were also mysterious until Hardhome. Once the books start focusing on the Others more, I don’t see any indication they will be different from the show, though it’s possible.”
Can we at least agree that it’s unlikely GRRM will resort to the cliched sci fi movie device – that killing the alien leader or alien queen deactivates all of his/her drones?
Considering there’s a whole heated debate regarding the prophecy about White Walkers, did anyone of you read this interview from Miguel Sapochnik and Ryan Condal? He confirms in this interview that Aegon being a dreamer and dreaming about White Walkers indeed came from GRRM (but something he mentioned casually in chats) while the plot element of every Targaryen monarch passing down the secret to their successor was the showrunners’ decision and it’s not confirmed whether this is from GRRM.
“That was the detail that George actually gave us early in the story break — the idea that Aegon the Conqueror was himself a dreamer and that’s what motivated the conquest,” Condal said. “Which he mentioned casually in conversation, as he often does with huge pieces of information like that.”
“We took George’s idea and spun it dramatically for ‘House of the Dragon,'” Condal said. “This idea that at some point in Aegon’s life as he got older, he must have realized the White Walkers weren’t coming for dinner during his lifetime. Then we decided that if he believed in this enough to conquer Westeros, he surely would have believed in it enough to pass the idea on,” Condal said. “So we had this become the legacy that the Targaryens have and they pass it from king to heir as a reminder that the Iron Throne is a privilege and it’s a duty and a responsibility.”
full interview in the link below
https://www.insider.com/house-of-the-dragon-asoiaf-prophecy-reveal-came-from-george-rr-martin-2022-8
Ten Bears,
Honestly, I do find this comment sexist.
Ten Bears,
Quote from grrm on his original outline. “ The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call “life.” The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and an endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night’s Watch. Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax”
So who knows how different the stand at winter fell and what grrm has planned. Maybe he has the horn of winter that will control the others. I personally think it will be something similar to the shows outcome.
Stew,
According to GRRM’s original outline, White Walkers’ motivation seems very similar to their TV counterparts… wiping out the living. Granted, GRRM may have changed plans several times since then but when he and the writers had a sitdown in 2013, I wouldn’t find it that far-fetched if the essence of White Walkers was still similar to his original outline. But something important to consider is that by the time when S1 started airing, GRRM only knew “broad strokes about the ending for major characters”… he said so himself in 2011. Who knows how much he knew in 2013 and how many times he altered his plans since then.
Something that is interesting to me though is that after Night King’s first appearance in S4, Richard Brake was originally credited as Night King (sparking a lot of controversy among book readers) but it was immediately changed to “White Walkers’ Master” and it was months later during filming of S5 when he was officially confirmed as Night King. This made me seriously think that it was considered to be serious spoiler in S4… and yet in following years GRRM started giving interviews how TV Night King has no counterpart in his novels. So why all the secrecy in S4 in first place???
But regarding supposedly major differences between White Walkers in novels and TV series, White Walkers have in total two scenes in the novels and as far as my opinion goes, they don’t seem any different at all to me, except for maybe physical appearance and the fact that they melt instead of shatter when killed. During my many re-reads, I never even considered them being different because I never got any firm impression they are.
Young Dragon,
I think mad was a wrong phrase. I think her isolation and jealousy of Jon, Sansa and Cersei helped her make a very bad choice. People were praising Jon as a king, Theon wanted to fight for lady stark, and kings landing doesn’t care what games the high lords play. But I agree the books and show are now different but same overall themes are their. Power corrupts even the best of humans. The show went more tragedy than fantasy but I do like the change and thought it was a better fit for tv viewing.
Yea, It was a pretty stupid comment
Ten Bears,
Cliché or not, it makes sense in the show. The wights/White Walkers are puppets, the Night King is the puppeteer. Kill the puppeteer, the puppets fall.
I wouldn’t presume to know what Martin would or would not write. I don’t understand why you would think he wouldn’t write something like this, especially since you’re unfamiliar with his writing.
Aaaand we’re back 😉
Oz of Thrones,
Excellent article — Balanced, thought-provoking, entertaining. Thank you for giving us non-book-readers a good place to read suitably spoiler-free reviews and argue, er, I mean “maturely debate” among ourselves.
I thought Episode 1 was a good start — A sprinkling of issues, as you’ve noted, but still a solid 4/5. Despite some residual skepticism because of what happened with GoT, it still felt great being back in GoTWorld. The transition was pretty seamless; it definitely felt this was all very much part of the same story continuity and “franchise universe”. As predicted, I think Rhys Ifans was the MVP in terms of gravitas, charisma and acting skills.
So far, so good. Beyond that, I’m withholding judgement until Season 1 is finished. So the verdict at this point is: Not “punching the air” yet, but definitely nodding approvingly 🙂
Well, in the books, I feel the Others do seem to be different from their show counterparts:
GRRM, A Game of Thrones, The Graphic Novel — Vol 1
And when it comes to their behaviour, characters note how unnaturally cold it gets when they are present — so cold, it hurts to breathe. When Jon complains of the cold, Val warns Jon that he has yet to know true cold and reminds him that real cold comes with the Others (a warning later echoed by Tormund). The Others only come at night and pick off stragglers so you never want to be on the outside of a group. They fear the fire and the day, but they’re always lurking, always watching, always right at your heel. Unseen, but always there, always waiting for you to trip up. It’s like they’re hunters and you’re the prey.
It just feels like in the books, the Others are more elusive, have more mystery to them, and to me, they feel more unsettling (especially since they are so unseen — they’re like this lurking force picking people off one by one and creating wights out of former characters to come back and attack current characters, it’s almost like they’re ghosts and I have a few thoughts about that). GRRM has promised to go into why they’re coming, why they’re here, what’s going on with them. I don’t think this particular conflict will be solved by an all-nighter battle, I think it’ll be more than that — perhaps some negotiation and some communication as they are sentient.
In the show, they felt more like action based corporeal villains for the heroes to tangibly fight against. I’m not at all saying that’s bad. I’m just saying I feel D&D went a different way with them is all — especially due to the medium of TV and their goal of reaching a far more broader audience.
As for the Dany stuff, I’m not touching that debate anymore 🙂 I’ll just say I disagree and leave it there 🙂
Let me re-phrase. I don’t mean to call your comment stupid. I apologize for that.
It’s just not accurate and it’s pretty offensive. Not all men are like Donald Trump. That was a strange way to shoehorn him into this thread.
Would you consider Marjorie Taylor Green or Lauren Boebert to be better decision makers or be better with empathy or fact-based decisions? I mean, they are female and younger than most politicians…
Some men are good, some men are bad, just like some women are good and some are bad. It should be whomever is most qualified. Not who is younger and more female. Besides, wouldn’t that be considered Ageist? People aren;t necessarily bad if they are old.
It’s interesting to observe how differently Western vs. Eastern cultures view the elderly.
The elderly are generally revered in the East. Age is associated with wisdom.
The West generally treat the elderly like an inconvenience and something to be discarded. There is nothing to be gained from them other than their inheritance when they die. Everything wrong with the world in young people’s eyes is apparently the fault of the elderly. Only things that are newer are better.
Adrianacandle,
For me and my opinion only, these sketches look more like something from a video game like Destiny versus a song of ice and fire. My preference is the shows version of them.
Ten Bears,
I guess I should properly express why I think so (I wrote the comment in the morning before I went to work). For one, I really don’t like that you’re just generalizing men as “pompous blowhards and self-aggrandizing, orange-tinted buffoons”. That honestly sounds very offensive and sexist and at the end of the day, everyone is an individual and should be judged as individual. Yes, some men in power are horrible… I immediately think of our former prime minister (a man) who came into power (again) right with epidemics and he is outright horrible in my opinion, representing everything I hate about people. Sexist, homophobic, elitist, totally disrespectful and insensitive, enjoying to harshly punish civilians using police and such while his own people get away with everything. And yet along with him and his minister for internal affairs (also a man who was just as horrible if not worse in my opinion), one of the worst people in his government in my opinion was the minister for education who was a woman… that woman was a total mess, indecisive, insenstive, not having any good interests for children themselves at heart… every decision she made, it only negatively affected school children without any regard for their emotional well-being. All she cared about was that she was in this government. So clearly this government, that still makes me angry if I only think of them, wasn’t messed up only because of men.
I’m all for gender equality, have always been…for both genders to be respected and not stereotyped, for treating every person as individual. And as much as I don’t like women being stereotyped, I also don’t like men being stereotyped. I hate if toxic masculinity is enforced on men… I’ve been verbally bullied through majority of elementary school because I was shy and sensitive, quickly getting emotional, reluctant to interact, being into reading and animals and introverted life. ANd believe it or not, the person who bullied me by far the most was a girl… the “miss popular” in class. Yes, certain boys teased me and such, but nobody came close to that girl who was outright mean and toxic, using every opportunity to try to humiliate me and calling me all sorts of insults… all because I was shy and quiet even though I never made any difference when talking to boys and girls and was willing to interract with both. In my previous job, the head of the lab and my boss was a woman… and she was one of the most toxic people I ever got to know, lacking any respect, putting me under such anxiety I hyperventilated more than once. In my current job, my boss is also a woman… and she’s great.
I just wish that both genders are respected and not stereotyped, every person being treated as individual, whether it comes to regular civilians or people in power. Some men are horrible but so are some women.
Ten Bears,
I agree with you that generally speaking women make more trustworthy leaders, despite a few idiot exceptions. Testosterone poisoning is a real factor in so many decisions made by men in power that negatively impact millions. Had she been president at the time, neither Hillary Clinton nor any other prominent female US politician would’ve invaded Iraq (a country that had zilch to do with 9/11) just to prove that she was more macho than her father, for example.
I for one can’t agree. I’ve believed all along that quelling the wight army would work this way: by killing the Others (though in the books they appear not to have a single leader and the Night’s King is someone else entirely, dead many centuries before).
Just because “hive mind” is a trope doesn’t necessarily make it a cliché, or an invalid approach.
Adrianacandle,
Brava! You’ve made an excellent case for how different the Others in the books are from the White Walkers of the TV show. GRRM has described them as “demons,” so they may even be noncorporeal. Anthropomorphic personifications of cold. Fighting that with armies seems futile. There has to be more meaning to the prophecy about what’s needed for their advance to be turned back. Magic will surely be a factor.
You realize that most Senators and Representatives voted FOR the invasion of Iraq, including Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton, right?
6 female Senators voted FOR the invasion. 4 voted AGAINST it
I do. I was very proud that my congressman at the time, the late great Maurice Hinchey, was one of the few to oppose the invasion.
But I also recall the mood of the country immediately post 9/11. There was a great outcry for revenge, to punish someone, alas. (And I could make a case that the impetus for that was coming overwhelmingly from males, in my experience, but it would be anecdotal.) For all too many Americans, any country where people had brown skin and wore turbans would have sufficed. The pressure to “show your patriotism and support the president” was INTENSE.
So I have some sympathy for all the legislators who got railroaded into voting for the invasion. But neither Clinton nor Biden would have initiated such a move. Dubya had a personal agenda with Iraq that was all about Daddy issues and had nowt to do with 9/11.
Firannion,
So, Clinton would not have initiated the move to invade Iraq, but was ok with going along with it/giving in to the lynch mob, and that somehow makes it better?
A wise man (with that darned icky testosterone) once said: “Who’s the more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?”
You just said that females (specifically Hillary Clinton) would not have invaded Iraq, yet we just discussed that Clinton actually approved the invasion while a male Senator (with testosterone I presume) in your state opposed it.
I’m a Democrat too, but let’s not reduce people’s identity down to their gender please.
Young Dragon,
I’m afraid I’l have to disagree with all your points here.
The last season of GoT was rushed, it is much faster paced than all previous seeasons and simply omits developments that should have been shown.
(Umm, mapping out the series to 70 episodes doesn’t mean that ending it in that timeframe won’t be rushed. I can plan my work week any way I want, by the time Friday evening comes, there’s still new completely unexpected stuff waiting to be resolved, for example.)
Those skirmishes against the white Walkers (wight rather) had no weight really and no consequences. All they did was reinforce the notion that White Walkers were a force of nature and nothing really could stand against them (how wrong that assumption was…).
Jon and Daenerys had barely half of what Westeros could field as an army, that shouldn’t have been enough. Yet barely anyone named died while complete vicory was achieved (which itself is ridiculous, no victory ever can be complete, specifically against nature: Nature always wins).
So, if you’re popular, you can get superpowers and it’s then completely normal? Wow, some politicians would love to have you as their marketers…
I’m afraid you fail at presenting any arguments that might even start to sway my opinion here…
stew,
Honestly, those sketches aren’t my preference either. In my head, they look more ethereal and ghost-like 🙂
Firannion,
Thank-you and I agree with you, especially wrt magic! In this interview, GRRM prefers the term ‘white shadow’ to ‘white walker’, which I find very curious as (some commenters in that thread note) Ghost himself is described as a ‘white shadow’ a few times 🙂 🙂 🙂 I think that could be a fun connection to possibly speculate (that may mean nothing!) as Ghost not only has a weirwood look, both the Others and Ghost are described as white shadows. I just find the whole area of magic in the northern area of this world, of the Old Gods, of the CotF, and of the Others really really fascinating and yes! The Old Gods do seem to be “anthropomorphic personifications of cold”! Even their voices are described as “the cracking of ice on a winter lake”!
Young Dragon,
Completely agree with all your points here. With all the powers WHite Walkers had, there was no realistic way to defeat them other than Winterfell and I’m honestly baffled how some people still can’t see that. Do they forget that Night King can re-animate tens of thousands just by raising his hands?
The army at Winterfell was as prepared as it could be with every single soldier possessing dragonglass weapon,being at right place at right time and yet they pretty much lost… every single defence they had, it didn’t stand a chance against White Walkers. And if they lost here, Night King would just re-animate everyone who has fallen and advance south, killing anyone on their way and re-animate then again. By the time he reaches Riverlands, his army is probably several times bigger than it originally was. By the time he reaches King’s Landing, his army probably counts millions of undead. Only this time, there’s no army left to stop them. How…can…people…not..see…this?????
Wasn’t the whole point of fight-against-White Walkers’ story to PREVENT the end of the world, not make it actually occur? White Walkers exterminating half of Westeros like some people apparently wanted to happen is not a victory at all. And did people really expect entire Westeros to selflessly unite behind Dany and Jon and march north to fight White Walkers? Wow, that’s quite naive and optimistic for a series of novels where hopes and idealistic dreams are repeatedly crushed. And even if they did, I’m 99.98% sure White Walkers would win in any case, no matter what size of human army would they oppose. Their undead never tire, they can reanimate tens of thousands in matter of seconds, they control the weather, they have super strength, they don’t have personality so negotiation is impossible, they’re invulnerable to everything but Valyrian steel/Dragonglass and they were smart enough to not even expose themselves in battle considering killing a White Walker destroys all undead this White Walker reanimated… obviously some element of surprise needed to be present to defeat them (and even that almost didn’t work).
I’m surprised Lord of the Rings didn’t get such complaints about enemies defeated in one big battle… Isengard Army was also defeated in one battle at Helm’s Deep, with every conflict before it being what other encounters with White Walkers were prior to Long Night. Sauron’s 200 000 strong orc army was also totally defeated in one battle at Minas Tirith. And while they were fighting at even bigger odds in LOTR in terms of numbers, surprisingly little named characters died. And yet everyone loves LOTR but Long Night keeps getting bashed because “only” 7 named characters died in that episode. Surprisingly, Blackwater and Battle of the Bastards also had little if any named deaths and yet they are loved.
TOIVA,
I agree that the final season was certainly faster paced than the previous seven, but that’s not the same thing as being rushed. Fast paced means that events are happening rather quickly but all the set up is there. When a show is rushed, events are also happening rather quickly, but the writers didn’t take the time and care to build up to said events. Season 8 is the former, not the latter.
Yes, D&D figuring that the show could be told in 70 episodes doesn’t mean that the end product wouldn’t be rushed. That’s not the point. The point is that you were wrong when you said “D&D wanted to end it as fast as possible.” That’s incorrect. They ended it where they were always planning to.
Those were not skirmishes. We were given at least one big White Walker set piece every season since season 5. These set pieces had main characters fighting against the White Walkers, so they were not defeated in one episode.
The army that Jon and Daenerys gathered at Winterfell was large, but it was still barely enough to defeat the White Walkers, even with two dragons. That shows just how much of a threat the White Walkers posed. I’m not sure what you’re issue is here.
We lost plenty of main characters during the battle. It was one of the bloodiest GOT episodes, as it should be. Regardless, the threat of an antagonist isn’t measured by how many characters they kill, but rather what the end result would be if the protagonists failed. In this case, Westeros would have been overrun and every man, woman, and child would have been slain.
Arya didn’t gain her Faceless assasin abilities because she was a popular character. She received them because it was part of her story.
In retrospect… yeah, you’re right, it was. I’d retract it if I could. No gender has a monopoly on good or bad leadership qualities.
Young Dragon,
”…the threat of an antagonist isn’t measured by how many characters they kill, but rather what the end result would be if the protagonists failed.”
Hey, this is an astute observation. I think I may steal it. 🤓 (With attribution to you, of course.)
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
No, I wanted negotiations. You cannot defeat the force of nature. White Walkers seem to represent the force of nature. Perhaps a reorganisation of Westeros and a new Wall being erected further south. Mankind survives, but is taught a lesson.
Young Dragon,
“Regardless, the threat of an antagonist isn’t measured by how many characters they kill, but rather what the end result would be if the protagonists failed.”
That may be, but the emotional impact an antagonist will have, even if he is to be defeated eventually, is how many sacrifices had to be made along the way. And with apologies to all the common folk taking part in the Winterfell battle, we don’t know them, we are not invested in them. That thousands die ends up being irrelevant when Brienne, Jaime, all the Starks, the Hound, Tormund etc. all survive. That simply is unfair to the unnamed characters and highly unlikely and takes you out of the picture.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Yeah, the more I think about it, the less sense it would have made for them to lose at Winterfell. The living threw pretty much everything they had at the White Walkers and it was barely enough. If the White Walkers had won there, how could D&D have come up with a realistic way to beat them?
I mentioned earlier that The Long Night was one of the bloodier episodes, so I also don’t understand the complaint of lack of character deaths. Jorah and Theon were there right from the beginning.
Of course. Feel free.
What negotiation? White Walkers were not a force of nature, but a weapon created by Children of the Forest with sole purpose to exterminate humankind in case if no peace between Children and First Men could be achieved. According to “Histories & Lore S6”, it was their most powerful and most desperate spell to create White Walkers and as we see, the spell was so advanced that even the Children couldn’t control them. But they were created, they were a weapon, they had only one goal to exterminate humankind and even their creators were all dead by the time they attacked Winterfell, with White Walkers exterminating them. There was no negotiation possible… White Walkers were a threat too powerful to co-exist with and they had to be destroyed at all cost or else the world would end and thankfully they had this critical weakness of being vulnerable to valyrian steel and domino effect if their leader is killed. There was no alternative to that. You’re making no sense to me with these complaints, really.
Young Dragon,
Yeah. Anyone who complains about Long Night being one battle, they should rather focus their complaints on the portrayal of White Walkers in first place because with the way White Walkers were presented and the powers they possessed, defeating them at Winterfell was most logical choice in my opinion. It was this “one window of opportunity” before the world would end and even that almost didn’t work, despite all the preparation in advance.
TOIVA,
I mean, did you see reaction videos when Arya killed the Night King? It received a very loud and emotional response. That’s because of what was at stake if the living lost the battle. It would have meant the end of everything, so watching the protagonists prevail was very emotional.
Also, there were plenty of casualties to the White Walkers. Karsi, Summer, Hodor, the Three Eyed Raven, Thoros, Viserion, Ed, Lyanna Mormont, Beric, Jorah, Theon, and Melisandre all lost their lives. Breaking Bad, The Boys, Stranger Things, etc. all have compelling villains, but compared to the White Walkers, their main character body count is relatively low. Regardless, I don’t judge shows or villains based on how many characters they’ve killed. If I did, GOT would still be on top.
Ten Bears,
I had not thought of Sansa’s taunting of her final ex-husband when I first laughed at the “House Bolton” crack, but I agree, it could be interpreted as a prediction of House Bolton’s fate. Roose and Ramsay did break feudalism’s most sacred social contract, that between lord and liege, and got the ultimate feudal punishment: their house did indeed disappear.