Spoiler note: The discussion in this post is primarily for non-book readers (book fans can discuss the show-only here). We ask that all Sullied book-readers refrain from posting any mentions/references to the books in the comments here, veiled or otherwise. No spoilers, at all! This show is best viewed without knowing all the surprises beforehand or afterwards, so please be respectful of your fellow fans. Thank you!
Can you believe the final “Unsullied Recap of Epic Proportions” is here??
A man is weary from doing his best impression of a drunk twenty year-old at a music festival, hence the lateness of this recap. My apologies, kind ladies and sers. But a man has survived and is here now to melt your dreams, steal one of you kingdoms, and make you cry. And this is why I don’t get invited to parties…
Let’s jump right in and discuss as we go. A man has thoughts as I’m sure you do, so let us quickly discuss the outcomes as I’m sure it will be analyzed and over-analyzed and reanalyzed after this for years to come.
The Carnage
We open up with Tyrion and the crew surveying the damage in the wake of Drogon’s incredibly hot acid reflux (think burritos with ghost peppers hidden inside). Needless to say, it ain’t pretty… dead women and children; buildings turned to ash; all the Harrenhal damage shit we witnessed in Season 2, but in the capital and thousands more deceased.
Tyrion heads off alone to look for his fallen family (possibly searching for Cersei’s wig, but more likely Jaime’s hand). OK… that was uncalled for. Moving on, when he does finally find them, Tyrion’s heartache is gut-wrenching and Dinklage probably earns another Emmy nod in the process.
And the carnage isn’t over. It seems the only humane thing to do now is to kill more people. Jon walks up on the temperamental Worm about to execute more Lannister soldiers and voices his displeasure. But Worm DGAF.
At that point, I was about ready for the Worm to get hooked. Up until the last episode, I really liked his character. And yes, I recognize that he lost the love of his life to a tyrant. But still, killing doesn’t necessarily justify killing.
The Conqueror
Where the hell did all of these soldiers come from?? Damn.
Dany arrives on Drogon while Jon watches and Arya the Assassin lurks in the Unsullied’s shadows. Would she take out the Night King AND the Dragon Queen?
Dany cheers on her thousands of soldiers and exclaims that they won’t be stopping with Westeros, but will go on to liberate the world. The image of Dany with dragon wings post-dismount was phenomenal.
After finding his dead brother and sister and upon hearing Dany’s plans for the rest of humanity, Tyrion tosses the Hand pin and admits to freeing his brother. And once again, he is off to the dungeon.
Jon doesn’t seem too keen on the idea of world domination either but is caught off-guard when Arya shows up. Arya explains that she was there to kill Cersei and reminds him that Dany will always see him as a threat.
The Reckoning
Tyrion gets a visit from Jon in his dungeon-room-area and tries to convince Jon that Dany won’t change and that Varys was right all along. He tells Jon about all of the other executions in the past (khals, slavers, etc). At first, Jon isn’t quite buying it (lover denial I suppose). But slowly, the things that Tyrion says to him make sense and as torn as he is, he knows something must be done to avoid further disasters.
Finally, Dany enters what is left of the throne room and touches it as the ashes fall. Shout out again to Djawadi.. that was some beautiful haunting music as Dany approached. What an incredible journey it has been. Jon enters as she stands seemingly in awe of everything she has accomplished.
Jon embraces Dany as she continues to say the wrong things and confirming what Tyrion had told him earlier. They exchange “I Love You”s and passionately kiss and GOD this is CHEESY. The love music plays in the background. Is this Days of Our Knives? Guiding Flight? As the Westeros Turns? The Young and the Headless?
And then, the cheese gets cut. But who cut the cheese?
Jon did. And Dany was done.
I never once believed that Drogon was going to burn Jon’s cheese. After all, he had just let Jon enter and knows he is one of them. However, it was climactic nonetheless as the fire comes incredibly close to Jon but was destined for the throne itself. After all the death and destruction and chaos the throne had caused throughout history, it was time for it to be melted down.
Following the grilled cheese throne, Drogon scoops up Dany and flies away. Could Jon have just gotten away with not telling anyone he did it? Just run, dude. Go! Zig-zag dammit! But he couldn’t… because he is Jon. I don’t know why the Unsullied didn’t just kill him as soon as they found out, but they didn’t.
Regardless, what a great freaking scene.
Meeting of the Mind(less)
A few weeks later (verified by Tyrion), a meeting at the Dragon Pit takes place with all the remaining heavy hitters… Edmure (he IS alive!), Robin, Sam, Brienne, Yara, Gendry, Yohn Royce, Arya, Bran, Sansa, a rando from Dorne, and a few randos from elsewhere discussing the fate of Tyrion and what the hell to do next.
Why they gotta pick on Edmure? Poor Tobias has been brought in to be made fun of for years. After Sam suggests democracy (oh God, LOL hahaha… we know how well that turns out) Tyrion states the obvious… that the seven kingdoms need a king and recommends someone new: Bran the Broken.
Bran wasn’t surprised at all yet surprisingly accepts it with no reservations, other than he wants Tyrion as his hand.
Everyone is on board, right? Right. Everyone except his own damn sister. WHA???
No, because Sansa wants the North to be independent. Or is it because she wants to be a queen? How do you do that when your brother just got chosen to be King of the Seven Kingdoms? The only holdout is the place the new King himself is from? What if this choice had led to the rest of the Kingdoms saying, “well, if you don’t trust your own blood to rule, then why should we?”
If they had given the throne to Yara or Gendry or someone not related to her, I would be a lot more accepting of this. But they gave it to a Stark!
So… six kingdoms. Whatever. The good news is that the nobles will now select a new king instead of it coming by inheritance. That is called progress.
The Punishment
In the only option short of execution that wouldn’t start another war, Bran sends Jon back to the Wall which is where he wanted to be in the first place before all this shit storm started. You’ve got to think Bran had this planned knowing that Jon would likely be the happiest in the North anyway. Thanks, Brotha!
On his way to tell his family goodbye, the Volatile Worm gives Jon a final “eat shit” look and I’m praying for one last duel before the show ends. But nope… off to Naath for the Worm. For what reason, I have no idea.
Jon bids farewell to his family letting Sansa know that he doesn’t hold anything against her. Arya tells Jon that she is off to see the world! Bon voyage, MF’s! And Jon apologizes to Bran to which Bran replies, “you were exactly where you were supposed to be.”
Brienne is shown flipping through the Book of Brothers to fill up Jaime’s empty pages and remembering him for all the good that he did, ending it with, “Died protecting his Queen.”
The most current version of the small council meet for brothel talk and an armada rebuild, without the threat of war for once. Go to your nearest city council meeting and it was very similar to what you will hear there: “We need to work on infrastructure.” “Yes, and also adult gift stores.” “What? We don’t need those. Roads are more important.” “Yes… roads to get to the adult gift stores. Liquor stores as well. If you don’t build those, what’s the use of roads?”
Ozzette didn’t really think it fit into the episode. I kind of found it amusing.
Jon gets back to the Wall and finds Big Red waiting on him with Ghost! You better pet that good boy.
Arya sails off with a bad-ass wolf carved in the front of her boat. I’d like to formally petition for a spin-off entitled, Into the Starkness: The Adventures of Arya Stark and Whatever’s West of Westeros
And finally, Sansa is crowned Queen in the North. Long may she reign. I sincerely hope it makes her happy. But I still don’t fully get it.
Jon ventures beyond the Wall with his free folk (in what looked like a callback to the first episode) and seems at ease. In the end, at least for him, I guess that’s all we could have asked for. The rest of it? I guess that’s up for you as an individual to decide. Even though I haven’t looked, I’m sure the opinions are all over the board. But that’s what you get when so many are emotionally invested in something. And if you as a show runner or a writer or an author can accomplish that, that’s called success.
“And…. End Scene.”
Episode 806 Personal Awards
Favorite Action Sequence: Burning Down the Throne (Talking Heads version)
Favorite Quotes:
“I freed my brother. And you slaughtered a city.” -Tyrion
“You’ll always be a threat to her. And I know a killer when I see one.” -Arya
“Love is the death of duty.” Jon quoting Aemon
“Sometimes duty is the death of love.” -Tyrion
“You have to choose now.” -Tyrion
“We can’t hide behind small mercies.” -Dany
“They don’t get to choose.” -Dany
“There’s nothing more powerful in the world than a good story.” -Tyrion
“Ask me again in ten years.” -Tyrion speaking during the show but secretly referring to the sequel that HBO will greenlight in nine years.
The “Ow, That Shit Hurts Award” goes to: Dany’s stabbing, and probably her heartbreak.
Overall Thoughts: This season has been a little like going to an inconsistent restaurant that you really enjoy. Sometimes the food is phenomenal. Sometimes it’s still good but not AS good as the last time you came. If you found out that the restaurant was closing, you would want to go one more time and hope that the food was going to be just as good as the best meal you ever had there. However, it’s an unrealistic expectation. Otherwise, they probably wouldn’t be closing.
In this case, the Game of Thrones Cafe is closing for unspecified reasons although we can safely assume that proprietors were tired of the headache and the hired help were getting expensive. To expect that I was going to get the best meal ever served on the final evening when the chefs rushed the process of the recipe just because they were ready to go open another restaurant was setting myself up for a letdown. So I didn’t. I took what was served and I enjoyed it for what it was.
That said, I loved most of it, even if the meat was slightly undercooked. The season just needed more time to marinate. We all knew Sansa wanted to be Queen. But her decision after Bran was chosen just threw me for a loop. This is nitpicky. You most likely have an issue with something else. My appetizer was good. Yours was cold. My chicken was dry. Yours was juicy. We’re not going to all see it the same way. We’re not going to have the same experience even if we order the same dish. Everyone’s tastes are their own, and neither is right or wrong. They’re just yours.
Discussing those differences is what makes the world an interesting place and this episode and the season and the series will promote compelling conversation for years to come. Don’t go away. This show is over. But Watchers is just getting started.
A man’s Fandom Road will be up later this week, so tune in and see how this joint got started! Thank you all, sincerely, for coming here and supporting and being a part of this community. I love you all for it.
Please bookmark us and visit often, and may there always be peace in your realm. –Oz
Follow Oz on Twitter.
**SPOILER NOTE: The Management of this fine site would like to remind you that book discussion is not allowed in Unsullied posts. This includes comments covered by code or otherwise. Personally, I appreciate feedback from Sullied and Unsullied alike, so long as they do not include any type of hinting or conversation related to the written verse. However, spoiler-coded comments do tend to lead to further Sullied conversation and for that reason, we ask that you please refrain from posting any book content whatsoever in Unsullied posts. Thank you for the coop. -Oz
They stuck the landing for me. Beautiful finale. Thanks for the years of entertainment Oz, I’ll always be grateful.
Hodor? Yes, Hodor. Wrecked by and eventually died protecting the apparent King, who knew all along he would be King, because he’s Broken and can see past, future, present, and whatever’s under a Scotsman’s kilt.
All hail Bran the Space Man. Long may he sit useless while everyone else does the heavy lifting!
Ah, Oz. Have loved your recaps for years and the non-book takes. It’s been fun to see you experience firsts we as book readers experienced long before. And then we were all (mostly) on the same playing field. A fun-ass ride.
My meal, BTW, was delicious.
Thank you for the great recaps.
Thanks Oz! I like your analogy to going to a restaurant you like that is closing. I loved the episode but see the points that made it (or parts of it) not work for other people. We’ll see how it stands the test of time, I love Tyrion’s line about checking back in 10 years!
But two responses. GW going to Narth, I think that was because he and Missandei talked about going there and how the Unsullied would protect the non-violent people of Narth. Sansa wanting the North to be independent was something the Northerners wanted too and had fought for, this was their chance to get. And who knows, Bran may not stay the king for long, get that independence now while she can. She did talk to Dany about it too so she wasn’t just asking because Bran is her brother. Anyhow, just my two cents.
Oz, you have a beautiful way of looking at the world, and I can’t thank you enough for sharing it with us for all these years.
This finale is not my first rodeo, and indeed the fandom is divided – which is a success and exactly as it should be.
I loved my meal. I didn’t want it to be over, naturally, and if I truly wanted to whinge I’m sure I could nitpick all the livelong day.
But, at the end of it all, it was a journey I’m glad we all took, and one I look forward to revisiting, often and with adoration.
I’m hoping the interesting conversations can continue with a minimum of bile and bad mouthing. Let’s make like the diplomats at the end and move beyond the nitty-gritty past and appreciate where we are now.
Been reading for a while (including the books). First time posting. I thought it was a good ending and, pretty much, what I expected. I knew Jon would end up in the true North with Ghost and Sansa would end up as the Queen of the North. Bran the Broken threw me for a little loop but I thought it was a cool twist. I’m not shocked by the Mad Queen’s end. It has been telegraphed for years if you read the tea leaves.
I don’t understand why everyone is so shocked that the last two seasons were a bit rushed. The actors, and presumably the writers, wanted to move on with their lives and the budget was massive and couldn’t sustain a longer run (i.e. reality invaded fantasy). I am more than happy to fill in the blanks with my imagination. I liked it but am happy it is over. So it goes.
Awh shucks, Oz bots. That was a tearfully sincere ending recap with little wisdoms sprinkled over your dish of chuckles.
Thanks for the wake up call. And there we go, back to our little realms.
I mostly loved it, mainly because all the people I cared about came out mostly OK. In the end it all seemed fairly inevitable. I could have done without Arya being Frodoed, but I suspected it was coming, partly because of an interview I had seen with Maisey where she said she was all alone for her final scene. I’d long accepted Dany had to die, and the only suspense all episode for me was whether Jon would man up and do the job.
I thought it was really elegiac. The cinematography was beautiful, particularly the scene with Dany’s wings, Tyrion finding his family and all the throne room scenes. Drogon made me cry.
The clue for me that time had passed was that Tyrion’s sight was all blurry when the Unsullied came to take him to the Dragon Pit (and the beards). The Dragon Pit stuff was fun. Gendry looked smokin’ in his new threads. King Bran the Broken? Eh. Tyrion will run the 6 kingdoms anyway.
onefromaway,
Agree with your assessment of Sansa’s actions. She’d campaigned for so long for the North to be independent. If she’d backtracked on that because her brother was suddenly king, it would have been hypocritical and made her beef with Dany petty. She was obviously uncomfortable at having to push back against Bran’s rule, but it was the right thing for her to do.
Now that I’ve had some time to think about it more, I still really love the ending and think that it struck a nice balance between some truly heartbreaking moments and uplifting ones. Of all the characters on the show, I really do feel that the Stark children deserved as much of a happy ending as we could hope for them and they got it.
Things I loved:
– Arya sailing off west on a badass Stark ship! It’s so her, and I’m imagining more great things she will achieve in discovering and charting new lands, landing herself firmly in the history books.
– Sansa as QitN. I thought the buildup to this was well-earned and fitting, and she deserves it.
– The music, cinematography, direction, acting, production, etc. were all wonderful.
– Brienne filling in Jaime’s story in the White Book was beautiful and poignant, and a perfect close to their shared story together.
– Dany’s death was heartbreaking and I think it was right that Jon did it. Drogon carrying her away was perfect.
– Jon returning to the north. I recall an interview with Kit where he said that Jon was happiest when he was with Ygritte during seasons 2 & 3, so that adds some sweetness to his “exile”. He’s in his element up north, and the idea of Jon as a hero that did the right thing but doesn’t get the heroic recognition one would expect is interesting.
Some criticisms:
– While I like the idea of Bran as king, I feel it could have been led up to better. I don’t know.. it did feel a bit.. underwhelming, even though I really love the idea of it.
– I loved the tearful goodbye between Arya and Jon (I cried like crazy), but I would have loved more touching moments between Arya and Sansa. We got very little between them this season, and I was really hoping for more after their wonderful scene together at the end of season 7. Maybe it’s with the understanding that they will see each other again, so it’s not goodbye for good, but I still feel they could have developed their relationship a bit more like they did with Tyrion and Jaime (obviously that was highlighted to make Jaime’s death that much more emotional).
– No Nymeria. This is just me being greedy, but I was hoping we’d see her one last time, but I understand why they didn’t do it.
– At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the season (and last season) were a bit rushed and could have used more episodes to let stories breathe more. The plot was really driving the characters instead of the other way around, and some storylines suffered for it, namely Dany’s arc (even though for the most part it worked for me) and the whole Cersei/Euron plot.
I’m overall very positive about this last season and how it all ended, despite some logistical flaws, and bumpy storytelling to get to the conclusion. I love this show, story, and characters immensely and that won’t change!
I really do think that all the (main/major) characters got proper and meaningful endings, which is exactly what I wanted going into this final season. Of them all though, it is my opinion that Arya has the best character arc in the story! Surprise, surprise! 🙂 There will never be another character like her, and I’m so thankful the show gave her such a fitting and wonderful ending.
Well for me the meal was good enough to make me almost forget about the previous letdowns and indigestions.
It all got basically tied down. The somewhat weird and still hard to grasp Dany turning into a “world liberator” plot got quickly cut (thankfully) as expected and the resolution ended up being surprisingly sweet for all characters.
Tyrion and Jon both got what they wanted yet these were officialy punishments. Davos, Brienne, Pod and Sam got what they deserved. Arya went full Samwell Gamgee, Sansa I guess also got what she wanted. Bran got what he knew he would get. Ghost forgave Jon’s rudeness. Bronn somehow got even more than he deserved.
The idea of democracy in the middle ages got rightfully laughed off.
Also importantly, Drogon is not dead. And Daenerys may be, but Red priests still exist east of Westeros…
I really loved the fact we got Edmure back (poor lad, still ridiculed at meetings and family events – though honestly, his bad, once again). Hell we even got Robin and the new Dornish prince (and other lords we don’t know).
I enjoyed the Small Council meeting like nothing else: the throwback to Tyrion’s musical chairs, the jackass/honeycomb in brothel joke (damn!), Tyrion’s exasperation, the bickering.
What was a little annoying was Sansa’s opt-out of the Seven Kingdoms while all other representatives were surprisingly fine with it. That was dealt with far too easily and neatly, particularly given Yara’s outspoken character was right there.
I would have also wished for Drogon to lash out a bit more randomly, not only melting precisely the throne. That paints the Dragons as far more clever than they’ve ever been shown.
But yeah, an overall very good ending, previous missteps (Jaime, Daenerys, Dorne, Sansa/Arya, …) notwithstanding.
Thanks Oz for the guidance along the journey across the years.
The independence of the North didn’t make sense to me at first, either. But…as Sansa herself pointed out…Bran can’t have successors. And there’s no guarantee that the next King (or Queen) the council of Lords elects wouldn’t be a tyrant like Joffrey, or “mad” like Daenerys who would then subject the North to whatever they decide. So, she requested independence. It fulfills not only the wishes of the North, but it returns that Kingdom to where they were before, when the Starks reigned as “Kings of Winter”. Plus, it also proves that Sansa’s disdain for Daenerys was not for any exclusively personal reason, but because she didn’t want her (or anyone) to force the North to “bend the knee”. She stayed consistent throughout the season. She started the season wanting independence and she ended it wanting (and achieving) the same. It wasn’t just about her wanting to rule. She would have ruled the North as Lady of Winterfell regardless. But she wanted independence (for the North…and hell, I would even venture to say for herself as well. No one else will ever again have the “right” to abuse or control either again) and she got it. That’s strategic planning. That’s playing the long game. That was well done.
Oh Oz, I am gonna miss your dandy recaps: until the Prequel. Your dining analogy reminded me (uncomfortably) of the Sopranos finale, but last night my GOT onion rings were hot and tasty. And they paired really well with grilled Iron Throne.
I’m not a fussy fan gal, so I’m good with the finale. It was heartwarming to see the Stark (& Stargaryen) fam win big and most threads ties. Here’s hoping someone remembered to free Ellaria Sand from the dungeon.
One observation: without the blond meglomanics in charge, didn’t the mood in Westeros do a 180? (Even sans brothels.)
….maybe it’s just because I’m a redhead.
It’s been magical, Oz. Hurry up with the uncensored version, willya please?
ヾ（*⌒ヮ⌒*）ゞ
Tyrion said he had “weeks to think” in that scene, so the passage of time was made clear.
Thank you so much for this and for all your recaps, Oz. I’m really looking forward to reading your Road to Fandom!!!
As I’ve written on other threads, S7 and S8 were terribly disappointing for me given the truncated storytelling, plot holes, Euron ex machina, and numerous storylines just left hanging (Meereen, anyone?)… just to name a few reasons. But I’ll always love this world and this fandom. And maybe someday, GRRM will actually finish the books and you’ll finally become Sullied.
Thanks Oz, this was one of my must reads for 8 years. May there always be peace in your realm. Go Dawgs!
Lovely interview with Emilia Clarke in The New Yorker, well worth reading: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/daenerys-tells-all-game-of-thrones-finale-emilia-clarke-beyonce
No indigestion in the Wolf house. 🐺
As others have stated, I too am more than pleased at how the Stark family survived depredation and brutality.
The Stark ship with Arya on board gave my heart such feelz and watching a more peaceful Jon riding into the forest with Ghost was all I could ask for. 🥰
Thank you Oz for all of your terrific recaps and cracking my shit up with your vids. 🙏🏻
You mean like the mad king? Or joffRey? Or tommen? Even Robert who was all about the lit doors life, was a shit king, so what’s your point lol?
I am guilty of that. Wanted it be the best season. Love your review.
Thanks Oz, will miss your recaps.
I loved the ending we got. I thought it was fitting to the story and i loved how it was mostly about the Starks. It was bittersweet in a way. I cried a lot while watching it and i need to watch it again.
For me, i have always felt Jons ending will be in the true North and i am happy they went with that, the final scene almost felt like he was king of the free folk but a Stark through and through with Ghost being there. I loved it so much.
I thought it was a nice surprising twist with Bran the Broken. Loved it. And Arya and Sansa’s ending were true to their stories.
I was so heartbroken with the Dany scene. I know its odd considering she mass murdered so many in the last episode. But it was very difficult to see her like that. This is true testament to Emilias portrayal of Dany, and the story the writers gave her to build up someone for us to love her and want her to succeed, without seeing her flaws, which were there the whole time.
I loved the episode and thought it was so emotional and so beautiful. I am so sad and heartbroken that it is over. i have more thoughts but i think i am too emotional.
Drogon was magnificent! May Bran reign for a thousand years! or until the peasants’ uprising. I’m glad Ghost and Jon were reunited! I’m sorry it’s over. I look forward to Arya’s arrival; I imagine she’ll head for Canada.
I said this in another post, i had some issues with the episode but that was due to the short season mostly. But i am a fan, this is what they are giving me, and this is what I will take and I will enjoy it and love it. Im not going to sit here and say how it could have been done better, because it is already so damn good.
IM SO SAD ITS OVER HELP
Big fans of Dany should hate it, and big fans of Jon should hate it. Fans of pretty much everyone else should be happy. I was disappointed with season 7, and would have been ok with season 8 as long as Jon kicked holy a$$ with Longclaw. The exact opposite of that happened, the entire season. I think they underestimated how much people loved the White Walker story. I got really bored with Cersei, she lasted far too long, and I hated having Euron and the actor who played him shoved down my throat. He played a huge part in the show story going sideways after six seasons. It’s too bad because Book Euron is really interesting. Just my two cents, from a book and show fanatic. I won’t rewatch the show again.
Joey,
I’m a Jon fan and I loved it. His fighting prowess isn’t what makes me like him, it’s his character. I also liked the White Walker storyline, but I also really liked Cersei as a villain. I’m glad they dedicated so much time on episode 3 and brought the White Walker storyline to a satisfying conclusion.
A 4.5 on IMDB? Yikes.
.
Love this analogy, Oz, spot on. Im still digesting, and burping a bit. I suspect in a few hours i’ll be hungry again (think I’ll stop now )
Wolfish,
really interesting article; how terrifying it must have been for her to think she was dying, still had to act, and didn’t want to tell anyone. Thank goodness alll is well but I can’t imagine trying to work at the same time.
It still isn’t over!
(at 1:35)
Idk where this site is going, or what we gon do, but I know what I need.
I need Oz’s recaps/reactions as he finally reads these goddamn books.
But for real though, we could virtual book club that shit, read (or reread) along with you. Could be a lot of fuuuuuunnn…who’s down?
LOL, Days of Our Knives.
I was ok with the ending. Pretty much all the “good” guys survived.
I don’t get why so many people think Arya is going to discover Aryos ?
I doubt Arya is the first person in Westeros to wonder what’s west of Westeros. There’s probably tons of people that have set sail west, but no one knows what there because NO ONE COMES BACK! I took Arya’s last scene as her sailing to her death.
Enharmony1625,
“Things I loved:
– Arya sailing off west on a badass Stark ship! It’s so her, and I’m imagining more great things she will achieve in discovering and charting new lands, landing herself firmly in the history books.”
______
It must have been over a year ago, perhaps after the S6 Arya – Lady Crane chat, that another commenter (sorry, I forget who) half-jokingly suggested Arya would sail west to uncharted lands and discover chocolate to bring back to Westeros. An entertaining thread detour followed.
I kind of like the idea that she’ll be GoT’s Marco Polo.
PS I read elsewhere that one of the proposed prequels and sequels was the adventures of an adult Arya. I of course like the concept, but it just wouldn’t be the same without Maisie Williams in the role.
Perhaps 5-6 years down the road, if she’s interested, if the proposed scripts are good. and if HBO has enough 💰💵💲 to make her an offer she can’t refuse, it could still happen.
(Let’s be honest. Wasn’t she the most popular character on GoT? After Dany’s transformation into mass-murdering megalomaniac and Jon’s downgrade to “Yes, My Queen” Valium popper, I don’t think there’s any debate.)
Randa Noyce,
I suggested something like that, or even a book group for other fantasy novels. I’d be up for it!
Knowing that Meghan McCain hated the finale makes me like it that much more.
Ten Bears,
I remember the thread about her discovering chocolate and bringing it back to Westeros. Ha! Good times! 🙂 I think it was Firannion that came up with that, but I could be wrong, so apologies if I’m misattributing that. And if memory serves, I believe I responded by saying Arya would name it “Stark chocolate”.
There’s been quite a lot of talk around a spinoff series about Arya’s adventures west of Westeros. So much in fact, that Stephen King himself tweeted that he would absolutely watch that. Wow!
From various interviews by Maisie leading up to season 8, she pretty much indicated that she was done with Arya, but never say never. Things change. I totally agree though, I can’t imagine anyone else in that role. She inhabited Arya completely, and no one else in my mind can live up to her portrayal.
Direwolf Lvr,
Saying that a boy on a wheelchair “sits useless” is kind of awful.
Greetings, oh Great and Powerful One! will you be watching next weeks doc, and if so, will you re-cap? Answer truthfully – I am the 3ER. Looking forward to your “Fandom Road” post. Valar Doheris!
ALL HAIL THE UNBORN KING IN THE NORTH!! ALL HAIL KING RAMSEY STARK!!! (I’m sure he will turn out fine with a mother reminded of his father every day…)
Someone could be found to play her as a mature adult – in Nina Gold I trust.
Oz, I’m 100% with you on the Sansa thing.
Also I would watch an Arya spin-off. Even better if the Lord of Light for some reason decided to bring back the Hound to keep his one remaining eye on her. Just putting that out there. 🙂
I’m also thankful Jon at least got to be with people who appreciated him at last. And Ghost.
I do wish he’d gotten a chance to say goodbye to Davos though.
And also maybe to be offered the kingship before turning it down to go North-since he has the best story and also claim and why didn’t anyone mention that after causing all that trouble for him in the first place? They could have just told Grey Worm they were planning on punishing him, he was obviously leaving anyway.
Actually Sansa’s request would have made way more sense if Jon had become the king, because they have an established, multi-season history of her not being a fan of him being in charge.
But I digress. 🙂
What an adventure this has been. The finale exceeded my expectations in nearly every way. From the acting to cinematography, to the writing to the incredible music in this episode – everything played out so well. We would all love more episodes and there were one or two things I could’ve lived without in the finale. But overall it was great ending.
AAuteur,
😂😂😂
End of an era.
Enjoyed the finale. Really satisfied with it. The one thing I hoped for this final season was no more dead Starks and my wish was granted. They suffered enough.
A Time for Wolves.
Thank you Oz, thank you Sue and thank you Watchers for making this the best GoT place on the internet.
3eyes,
I have no doubts about the talent of Nina Gold, and there are definitely actresses out there that could play the role wonderfully, but after 8 seasons of such an iconic character it would be hard for me to accept anyone else portraying Arya. Same really goes for other characters as well (hypothetically): Jon, Jaime, Tyrion, etc. These actors are these characters.
As anyone who has read the books knows, Arya Stark in the main character in the books. I could see George R.R. Martin writing a new adventure for Arya west of Westeros. I could also see someone stowing away on Arya’s ship to join her on this new journey. But who would that be? Gendry or someone else?
Thank you, Oz, one last time. I am looking forward to reading how you became a fan.
I went into the finale thinking that Daenerys would be killed by Jon, who would then go up North, so I guess I got what I expected.
I cannot say I was thrilled with the episode, though.
The first part, up to Daenerys death, was magnificent. It was beautiful. It was fear striking, and it was heart breaking. I felt so sad for all of them: Tyrion, loosing the one person in the world he was really close to. Jon, poor old Jon who only wanted to serve, so conflicted. Needing to make that awful choice and kill the woman he had loved so much. And Daenerys, who was such a mesmerizing character all along, that she got away with all those terrible things she did and noone really cared or rather, noone really thought they were bad. But, as she was relaying her mad plan of world liberation to Jon, and as she was betrayed by the man she so loved, all I could see was that frightened little girl who was sold by her brother.
It kind of went downhill, afterwards. I can understand Jon was not the guy to kill the queen and then disappear; plus I am sure he felt so guilty he just wanted to die as well. So, I get that he went up to Grey Worm and confessed.
What I don’t get is how Grey Worm and the Dothraki, so eager on massacre and summary executions earlier on, decided that Jon should be kept a prisoner and be tried later for his crime.
Then, all of a sudden, the remaining lords (and ladies) of Westeros show up, Edmure included just for laughs (I thought Sansa was pretty rude, to be honest), Sam’s proposal for democracy is laughed at (nice touch there, introducing democracy to Westeros would be a ridiculous idea), and Bran is made king. Wait what? Bran?
How being the three eyed raven can combine with being king? And are we to understand he saw this was endgame? Like, he so much pressed for Sam to tell Jon about his parenthood so that Jon would obviously tell Daenerys, she would obviously go paranoid, Jon would have to kill ther to protect the realm and then in turn would be banished, leaving the throne (not the Iron Throne, but still, there is a king, so there has to be a throne) free?
So, one big drawback to the ending for me. And one smaller one in Sansa breaking away; that felt so much fun service and it could, potentially, destroy the whole united kingdom thing. I really cannot understand how after the North breaking away Yara did not say “well, you know what, I think we are out as well” or why the “new prince of Dorne” felt so invested with the 6 kingdoms and Bran the Broken instead of stepping out.
As for Jon, I know the show wanted us to believe that going up North is all that he ever wanted, I still feel that his potential as a character was not fully exploited.
So, there it is. Season 8 was a good season for me (minus episode 4, which I still hate). I am not happy with everything that happened, but I am glad I was there to watch it happen. I would have been happier with Tyrion being king because Bran seemed really out of another story, but hey, not my show.
PS So Sam’s the Archmaester of Kings Landing. Where does that live Gilly??
Thank you for your recaps, Oz. After feeling spoiled while watching the first season because I devoured everything posted on the initial website, I decided to stay out of most pre-season build-up and the in-season discussions. Your unsullied recaps and the re-Tweets were the exceptions, both always entertaining and free from venom and spoilers.
As for this final season and the final episode… I enjoeyed the first three episodes and wished I had stopped watching then. For me it just didn’t work – there were a few tasty bits here and there, but the food was overal undercooked and thrown on the plates from far away – it looked chaotic and I’m sure some crucial bits had landed besides the plates I was served. As a result I became almost uninterested in what happened to the characters – if you had told me before the season that I would hardly feel a thing when Jaime died, or when Jon killed Dany, I would not have believed you. From the last episode, the most emotional scene for me was the one with Brienne writing the history of Jaime Kingslayer-turned-noble-Knight. The scene between Tyrion and Jon in the dingeon was very good too. And I liked the way they cut between the different Stark(/Snowtarg) kids to highlight that in the end, the Starks ruled Westeros and whatever was lying West of that.
All in all it has been an amazing ride, much better than what we all hoped for around the time of the shooting of the pilot episode. But sadly, in my humble opinion, the final dishes left a bad aftertaste in my mouth…
The final turning point for Jon’s decision to kill Dany was when she said: “They don’t get to choose.” However, I think it’s possible that Ygritte’s memory effected partly to this decision: Dany said that Jon has always known what is good and Ygritte said several times as we all remember: “You know nothing, Jon Snow” 😀 And of course Jon had to choose between Starks and the Targaryens, and he chose Starks. Jon was pretty passive all season, which was slightly disappointing.
Writing & dialogue suffered quite a lot. Acting and music were great. It was also visually stunning, but in my opinion special effects are not nearly as important as storytelling.
Enharmony1625,
I couldn’t agree more, I’ve now had a rewatch and tbh my first reaction was not great. I wanted Jon to get that recognition he deserved. I’ve got over myself now, so ready to admit I over reacted to what I wanted for the ending and think for the characters, what happened was for the best. I loved the dragon behind Dany. I’ve spent years watching this amazing program. I’m going to miss these beloved characters.
Jack Bauer 24,
because this is how the episode was. it was utter crap, not a worthy finale at all.
Sou,
Agree with a lot of this. I enjoyed it and thought that overall the ending was pretty good but you are right, it was stretching it a bit to think that Grey Worm and the unsullied would keep Jon (who killed their Queen) and Tyrion (who their Queen had ordered to die) in prison for weeks while waiting for Westerosi nobles (that Dany would have probably torched) to turn up, and then let Tyrion (the prisoner) decide everything! Still processing my thoughts and feelings on the whole show, but some other thoughts on the final episode…
I loved…
Dany and Jon’s final scene – beautifully shot and it was heartbreaking to realise that they both still truly loved each other and that everything Dany was saying to try to convince Jon to stay with her and join her actually was the opposite of what he wanted to hear and was just convincing him that he had to kill her.
The new small council – I’m not really sure how much the wheel is truly broken and we probably won’t really know until there is a peaceful and successful transition to the ruler post-Bran, but the people should certainly benefit from a far more capable king (with super-powers!) and small council, who also all seem to get on with each other rather than trying to kill each other (for now)!
Where Jon ended up – he would have no doubt wanted to head North to hang out with Ghost, Tormund and the Wildlings, so I am happy how this ended for him and I like to think that Bran knew this when he gave him that “punishment”, but…
Things I didn’t love…
How Jon ended up in the North – maybe I just am too fond of classic hero story arcs, but I thought Jon’s general treatment by everyone was terrible (apart from Grey Worm, who very kindly didn’t kill him!). While it may have been too much to expect Jon to hop on Drogon, torch the Unsullied and Dothraki and rule the 7 Kingdoms peacefully, or even for him to be offered the throne by the Westerosi nobles, he might at the very least have expected some thanks from people. After all, he literally died for his beliefs, organised the defence vs. the AoD and ultimately killed an even bigger menace, all while acting selflessly and with honour. I would have preferred if the decision to head North had been his to make rather than made for him, as he basically ended as he began – an outcast with no real place in Westeros. The fact that apart from the 3 or 4 people I had never seen before, everyone on the council of nobles that decided his fate were either his family, friends or allies of his family and they still hung him out to dry didn’t sit right with me (Sansa and Arya kind of tried to help, but what about Sam, Davos and Tyrion – not a word from them?!)
The end of the Targaryens (I guess) – Fundamentally this was about the rise of the Starks and the tragedy of the Targaryens (I include Jon with Dany). I get that, but I would have loved some small little sign that perhaps the Targaryens / dragons might live on or return – probably too much to have hoped to hear Drogon’s screech as Jon rode into the forest at the end, but that would have been cool…
This was the biggest tragedy ever seen on TV! If Jon and Daenerys represent Spring and we are now dreaming of them being together, it really is horrific !
You took these characters, taken them through hell and back and then hell and back again, and in the end, one kills the other and must live on with the drama “did I do the right thing?” – “Ask me again in 10 years”. It’s more tragic than Shakespeare.
All the Starks survived their battle against winter. That’s nice…
Even George changed the name from “A time for Wolves” to “A dream of spring” to amplify the Jon and Dany tragedy.
And by the way, great job on destroying your beloved house Targaryen. The last 2 Targaryens are a couple of morons that can’t be with each other, because they are Aunt-Nephew.
Do I care now about Valyria, Aegon’s conquest or the Dance of Dragons ?
They should have ended the series with Drogon destroying the throne and carrying Daenerys’ body east.
I didn’t enjoy anything that came after (accept for Brienne filling in Jamie’s pages).
The thing that bothered me the most: Why was Daenerys and Drogo’s love music from the House of the Undying played over Bran accepting being king?
Was that part of the prophecy fulfilled? Is she with Drogo and Rhego in the afterlife? Did Bran know this would happen and let it happen? Did he and the Night King swap bodies in 6×05 when he grabbed his arm, and everything after was just the NK (as Bran) trying to get to Bran (NK) to swap bodies again? Is that why Bran said “Why do you think I came all this way?”
I feel like they should have had episode 5 as a 2 hour episode with the first 40 minutes of this one as a series finale, it would have been bittersweet, had the same open-ended outcome, without shoving concrete answers, plot holes and even more unanswered questions down our throat. (Seriously why the hell didn’t the Unsullied execute Jon on the spot? Makes no sense).
Dee Stark,
Yes, pretty much my feelings too – though I still haven’t realized it’s trully over!
There were some things that bothered me in the last season, esp after ep.3, but after lots of thinking, I think if there were more episodes it would have run more smoothly Nonetheless in overall it was an excellent way to close the story in the TV show.
Perhaps the most heartbreaking sequence in the entire series for me was Jon’s decision to kill Dany – from meeting with Tyrion where he broke down, to his last attempt in despair to convince Dany to change ways, and to avoid up to the last moment to harm her. But when she said that ‘they don’t get to choose’ it was the moment he realized he had to stop her. I get emotional just by recalling it! Drogon trying to ‘wake up’ mum, was equally heartbreaking with Jon crying over her body.
And I loved that he melted the Iron Throne and all the corruption of power it signified.
I wished that they would spare Jon the burden of this choice, but I do understand it had to be him.
The court meeting had some strange moments- namely Sansa refusing to bend the knee to her own brother while everybody else accepted him; and I was surprised that no one mentioned Jon as a candidate.
On afterthrought, Grey worm would have never accepted that, and they all knew it, but even so they should have mentioned it I think. I think Grey Worm thought that Jon killed Dany for the throne, while it wasn’t so, of course. So, that’s why he accepted that Jon takes the black, in the sense that this would- in Grey Worm’s mind- keep Jon away from the throne.
Bran was a logical choice – and his arc had to be concluded: we were all wondering why all these people died for him, and what was Bran’s purpose. And we finally understood what his journey had been all about – we thought and were misled intentionally to believe it was about the NK, but it was about re-building Westeros as a better place. And I think Bran with Tyrion will make a good team, as what Bran may lack in emotion, is covered by Tyrion’s strong feelings about the common folk.
Grey Worm sailing to Naath, keeping his promise to Missandei, that the Unsullied would protect her people was a nice way to close his arc. Sam the royal Maester – a good choice! Likely there were some changes to whether a Maester can have a family!
Ser Davos – yes, very happy he’s in that counsil and Brienne too.
I was happy with Arya’s ending, sailing West into the unknown.
I never had special feelings about Sansa, but she did get what she wanted, even if her prior actions created problems for Jon. I didn’t really care about her character though so I wasn’t invested in what happens to her, as long as she survived, of course. I loved her dress when she was crowned!
And Jon’s ending; perhaps not what I had in mind for him, especially with the entire plot about his parentage and all that. But I think that after all he’s been through, and given he didn’t want to take the throne in he first place, it was good he was spared of that at least and able to live among people who believe in him, know what he did for them and the realms of Men and love him. And with the best boi in Westeros, no less! (such a sweet and emotional moment when he was reunited with Ghost!)
I like to picture Jon beyond the wall, with his pal Tormund, and Ghost, roaming free; I hope he forgives himself for Dany and perhaps fall in love again and take a wildling wife when he feels ready; have a couple of kids; I picture him happy- seriously no need to keep any law of the former watch, there’s no need for a Watch anymore because of him!
The sequence between the Stark siblings as each moves forward to their own paths at the end was trully excellent.
And in the last sequence when Jon goes beyond the wall, they show us a little green plant, just making its appearence. A dream of Spring, hopefully for Jon – and for all of them.
In overall the ep was a 10/10 for me, overlooking the details and focusing on the essence of what happened and the arcs coming to a satisfying fullfillment.
Now I need to accept that the show is over! That’s the hardest part!
Oz you are amazing. The entire crew here has provided us with a journey like no other and to say you ALL have my heartfelt thanks still doesn’t seem like enough. You were spot on with your analogy of this last episode. No matter of the ups and downs the final episode tied up so much and for that I am thankful. To everyone here… it’s been a wild ride and I’ve enjoyed your company.
SmallPod,
The actors, and presumably the writers, wanted to move on with their lives
I hear this a lot but I’m not exactly sure what it means in practical terms because this IS their lives. Acting and writing are their main professions. I’ve worked at the same company for over 10 years and don’t feel the need to move on, but maybe I’m just boring lol. I dunno, please help me understand. 🙂
Lyanna Smith,
Tyrion, the one who put Jon up to the murder, gets to be hand of the king yet Jon gets exiled by his own brother for doing the deed that not only saved the realm but broke his own heart. Thinking on that aspect for me leaves the ending with a bad taste in the mouth. I try to tell myself it is what Jon might want anyways but then I realize when he looks back at castle black from his horse, he doesn’t plan on going back, he doesn’t want to be back there and he can’t go be with family because he knows he’s been banished. THAT SUCKS FOR JON. All that he’s done to save everyone and the fact that he’s the rightful king in the first place and THIS is what they do to him?! I’m getting myself worked up now lol.
Also I don’t like Bran.
Hear, hear
Ok, I am not as mad today as I was yesterday. The ending makes sense, it was almost a triumph for the Starks, they get to rule from shore to shore in three kingdoms, but undeserved because they were watchers in their own story. The narrative is like a colander; it’s insulting to my intelligence.
These are my points:
-Beautiful ending for Daenerys, Greek tragedy/Shakespeare kind of style. I don’t agree with all the sexist charges; this is good literature, folks, and it’s ancient.
– It wasn’t a tragic romance though. You need to have a romance first to call it one. Dany and Jon’s scenes were from the very first scene undercut with powerplays and anticlimactic replies/moments. Apart from the “bend the knee” scenes in season 7, Bran’s v.o. during their sex scene, the absense of a first kiss, the “we’d be too old” in 8.1, the “no one must never know”, etc, etc. Jon told her he loved her in the very scene Daenerys understood finally that he didn’t actually love her, that she was his “duty” because she was his queen. By the beginning of 8.5 Jon is so scared of her, of what she can do, there’s no way he loves her. And in the final scene, he didn’t tell her he loved her, he told her “you’ll always be my queen”. Got it, Jon! Say no more.
– While at the same time Jon was filmed as a ruling couple with Sansa. Go figure! Red herrings everywhere, anyone? The show offered three epic hugs of the two of them bursting with cousin/incest vibes, lol. Not to mention the pinning and huffing-puffing thing since season 6, Sansa’s jealousy in season 8 (also confirmed by Nutter). This end was left incomplete because the showrunners didn’t have the guts to make it explicit (let’s hope that Martin will, that he’ll stay true to his insane foreshadow). But that final hug was more rewarding and long expected in season 8, where everybody’s POVs were swallowed up by Dany’s. Well, at least one can imagine that Sansa being Queen has the “Night’s Watch” under her authority, and she can always pardon Jon, after, what, three months? Which makes the entire punishment thing a big bad nonsensical joke.
– The most essential part that makes absolutely no sense is this: in which universe does the hero of the story get punished for killing the perpetrator of a regular GENOCIDE? Not only this happens, but it happens on demand of the SECOND IN COMMAND of the GENOCIDE, GREYWORM. It’s not his country; he’s in charge of a policing of TERROR in the city that Daenerys herself burned down, because apparently he’s in a position to make demands like that. And the others hear him out and comply to his request. And in the end, he who is actually guilty of the same crime and executes prisoners of war even in the beginning of the ep, gets to go free. WHY? Someone make it make sense, please.
– The other joke: Tyrion. While Jon gets punished for killing a mass murderer, Tyrion who actually brought the mass murderer in Westeros with the two large armies and the three grown dragons, who is a murderer, goes from prisoner to BEING REWARDED with holding a position at the small council. Tyrion managed to betray the Starks, his queen and his best friend all in one episode; he then was clearly the master mind behind Daenerys’ assassination (I’ll get to that point below). And he gets rewarded for it? Someone make it make sense, please.
– Things left unaccounted for: Sansa telling Tyrion about Jon’s parentage, and Varys plotting to actually make him king. Ok, Jon didn’t want to become king, we know that and it’s in character. But Varys’ belief that “power resides where people think it resides” that was an entire theme in GOT? Goes down the drain, huh? Why is it that no one thought at the Dragonpit meeting that Jon was the legitimate heir? They could at least discuss it to reject it, they don’t want Targaryens, we get it. But give it a fucking shot anyway, BECAUSE IT’S THE CENTRAL THEME OF ASOIAF. His parentage not being discussed only makes it a sidestory for hyping Daenerys’ turn to madness, while in reality it’s the issue par excellence.
– Which brings me to the unconcealed, horrible, meaningless, incomprehensible CHARACTER ASSASSINATION of Jon Snow. It wouldn’t be like this had they given us a true romance with Daenerys. But as it is, with what they have given us, they want us to believe that Jon Snow, who was undercover with the wildlings, left them and Ygrit because his duty was with the Night’s Watch, mercy-killed Mance for not allowing him to burn, handling Stannis and Melissandre with disbelief and suspiciousness, not buying into their bs, was so deceived by Daenerys, or was so into her or whatever, that he’d be willing to actually FOGIVE HER the burning of KL? That he’d need convincing to murder Daenerys? By freeking Tyrion of all people? From his lips, and with his history, the line “the love is the bane of duty” makes no sense. Because first of all, if he loved her, and his queen is his duty, there is no conflict. Unless of course he means that a murder is a duty, which, eh… sounds weird. Oh, but wait, what does Tyrion say? “Duty is the bane of love”. Ok, so his “duty” is to kill Daenerys, whom Jon loves, right? Once again, someone else gets to tell us that Jon loves Daenerys (remember Jon himself only said it once after Varys’ execution and Dany perceived it quite the opposite). There are Doylist reasons for Tyrion’s stupid little speech. Like KH said, they needed to remind the viewers what Daenerys had done (well, Kit, some of us had been paying close attention, don’t get me started, but I get it, how is it that you can justify this terrible scenario in which you shone against all odds?). So Jon is reluctunt to buy into it, until Tyrion mentions Sansa, whom Tyrion has betrayed himself to Daenerys (so now Tyrion cares about her, go figure!) which makes her position in Daenerys’ new regime precarious at the least (if not sealed her fate save for the murder), and by extension Arya’s and Bran’s. They’re all in danger; Daenerys will either kill them all and keep Jon around, or will kill Jon and force the others to “bend the knee”. (all of this could have been made more explicit for the audience btw; why is it that they only needed to be reminded of the dracarys and the crucifixion asituation?) Tyrion’s little speach could very well be a theme in Tyrion’s and Varys’ discussion in ep. 4. And I’d be much happier if Jon got to kill Daenerys and then explain why he did it in that trial (which he deserved to have but he was denied the chance to speak for himself because of… reasons?); he did it for his family, that’s what sealed it for him; that suffices for Jon from a Watsonian point of view. AND IT WOULD SHOW THE AUDIENCE THAT JON SNOW WHO KNOWS NOTHING LEARNED SOMETHING FROM HIS PARENTAGE REVEAL; THAT HE FINALLY AFTER SO MANY YEARS HAS AN ANSWER TO AEMON’S QUESTION: CHOOSE LOVE FOR THE FAMILY AGAINST DUTY, BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT NED DID, THEY HAD BEEN FILMING HIM AS A STARK AND AS NED 02 SINCE SEASON 6. And then he’d get the recognition he deserves for season 8; he’s a Stark; he’d always been one; he became the wall between Daenerys and his family, keeping her focused on him (despite Daenerys’ threats on Sansa), on the war and on the throne; it was very sacrificial, a good turn to the story but one that makes no sense. It would all fall into place, and it would be character progression, be he behind the Wall or not, had they been more careful with the script. The way they put it, it was character regression for their main protagonist (while others, guiltier, got to advance, see: Tyrion, Bronn). It was as if he chose duty, but he had been choosing duty all along for seven seasons. Not only that, but he also left disgraced, he left a Jon Snow, for… what, exactly? Ugh, yes, I forgot; he killed the fanfavorite.
– I won’t comment on Bran becoming king much; it was undeserved. From a narrative and historical point of view it’s stupid (there’s no way that such a reign stabilizes). Calling him Bran the Broken is ableist; they could go for Bran the Rebuilder or sth, because that’s what he’s called to do (even in the books there’s some evidence).
All in all, it was a very bad episode, and a very bad season (and I don’t think time will change my mind).
It was lazy writing at best. The Starks’ POVs, especially Jon’s, were buried for Daenerys’ sake. Sam and Davos were non existent, save to highlight Daenerys again, each for different reasons. And for the life of me I’ll never understand why Sam gets to be a grand maester, which means that he’ll never marry Gilly; he’s officially the father of bastards, and the ending of Jon Snow shows what happens to bastards; they’re doomed forever, even if they’re not to blame for who they are.
Season 8 was all about Daenerys, and apart from that for D&D’s favorite males, Tyrion and Bronn (another murderer who got rewarded for it). They didn’t have the guts to smear Tyrion, huh? They’ve been whitewashing him since season 1; he’s a horrible person, a horrible character, and what he did in season 8 is unforgivable.
And in all this the Lannisters shone! Yes, the siblings that hated each other got more convincing, overwhelming scenes together than the Starks did since season 1. Again, who’s the story for? Oh, yes, I forgot, it’s not about the Starks, it’s never been; it was always for D&D’s favorite incest/murderous siblings, the Lannisters! Yeah, murder all you want, fuck each other all you want, in the end in the GOT universe you’ll get rewarded for it.
The sexist talk in the small council really made me sick; that’s no political progression, unless D&D think that brothels is the issue.
The visuals were outstanding; the actors’ performance was outstanding and worth many emmys (but I’m worried for KH, bc awards usually go with a good story, and that story was not good). A huge bravo to everybody working on it; I hope they get the recognition they deserve.
The end; and I’m so glad for it; it became sick in season 8, really.
Haha, maybe Jon could’ve just said that Dany went off on a dragon ride and never returned. xD
I liked/loved aspects of the finale, mostly from the latter half…but on the whole can’t say I loved it and feel very satisfied…alas. It’s a bittersweet feeling, though bitterer than anticipated. It also depressed my mom somewhat; she sort of wants to rewatch it, but not really. ;;
Pretty good restaurant analogy.
Thoughts are on blog. As always they’re likely in excess of character limits (or simple appropriateness. x3)
I also liked the ending overall – it was even more sweet on the bittersweet scale I’d thought. But there were a couple of jolts for me. Last week in some thread I was saying I don’t know how they were going to resolve the Unsullied/Dothraki/Drogon situation if Dany is killed by Jon/Arya/somebody. It seems D&D didn’t either, they just skipped it!
I posted a couple of observations about the Throne room scene in the sullied recap, I’ll put them down here also.
The shot of the camera rising from behind the Iron Throne was almost identical to one in S1 or S2 when Sansa was pleading for Ned’s life or was being tormented by Joffrey for Robb’s deeds, and the implication then was that the Iron Throne or who sits on it is evil.
The way Dany looked at the Iron Throne seemed to me like the way a person would look at their lover.
And Dany trying to persuade Jon reminded me of Selyse’s religious fervour in S5 when Mel was burning somebody. I got the vibe Dany had fervour for a quasi-religion in which she is the god.
The Great Council also seemed a bit too easy. Especially Yara and the Dornish guy not going, “Hey! If the North gets independence, we want it too!” And Bran? I think a few more lines, not even a whole scene, this season might’ve helped, but it seems D&D really like to write surprise GOTCHA moments (Littlefinger, Night King, this).
The Small Council scene… I took it as showing life goes on, it’s not a perfect happy ending. Oh, and please, won’t somebody please send Lord Smartass of Fancy titles to a brothel so he can get the pox and die already! 😀 (I’m not a big fan of Bronn.)
I liked the ending for the Stark/Snow siblings, each doing their own thing. Yes, I think Jon left the non-existent Night’s Watch to roam free with Ghost, Tormund and hopefully at some point a Free Folk wife and kids.
You guys Drogon is all alone now 🙁 What do you think Bran’s intentions for him are?
Thanks Oz! I’ve always loved your recaps!
Pangumpy,
everyone on the council of nobles that decided his fate were either his family, friends or allies of his family and they still hung him out to dry didn’t sit right with me
Ugh. I know. It didn’t make sense to me either. Only way I can rationalize it is that their “honor” required that their beloved brother needed to pay for his mistake of becoming a follower of and kneeling to Dany in the first place. I’m guessing they question his judgement now as well and besides his not wanting the throne, that is one other reason they don’t bring up his name when talking about electing a new king. But you’d think at least Tyrion, who was more culpable in aiding and abetting Dany than Jon ever was, when he went back to speak with Jon could have at least said words of gratitude. And Jon never gets a word from his “best friend” Sam because what? Sam’s got a new bestie now who happens to be part bird/not fully human? And we couldn’t see Davos give Jon a hug and few words of encouragement? Whatever.
Nothing left hanging there. Daenerys had dropped ‘Queen of Meereen’ from her titles. The Meereenese were left to choose their own leaders, with Daario in charge of keeping the peace in Slaver’s Bay.
I certainly wasn’t interested in hearing any more about Meereen, but I would have liked to know who the new Prince of Dorne is, and where he sprang from! Some corners were cut which was a shame. But it is what it is, and I can’t begin to imagine the scale of this production and how difficult it must have been to bring it all together.
God-Emperor Bran is going to transfer his consciousness into the dragon and rule forever as a WMD.
Well it’s like Daenerys finally getting the Iron Throne, except that is not good enough for her, because she is a woman consumed with ambition. She could have stopped at many points – with Drogo; in Meereen – and it isn’t a surprise that she isn’t going to stop at the Iron Throne either. She has to push on to something bigger.
talvikorppi,
I think the implication behind the North being able to gain independence is that they had a lot of leverage with the part they played in the war. Dorne and others did not. The Iron Islands are still free and independent though. The six kingdoms as I understand them are: the West, the Reach, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and Dorne.
I share Oz’s heartbreak at Grey Worm becoming a villain. The writers have a clear reason for this – obviously it should never be as simple as just killing Dany. Her fanatic followers are gonna fanatic. But it is painful to look at. I am also rather concerned for the Isle of Naath.
I certainly can’t level the complaint that GW’s actions are inconsistent. At no point did he or Missandei show any desire to be merciful to the “masters”. And Dany had labelled all of Cersei’s forces “masters”. This is fanatical black and white thinking. Of course the surrendered Lannister soldiers should have been left alone, but ironically GW remains a victim of his upbringing. He thinks he’s free, but we can clearly see this is diseased thinking.
Still confused why Jon didn’t get immediately executed.
Sou,
Ayup. Rather disgusted by the names he has been called and the jokes about his disability. You’d think by now we’d know that being in a wheelchair means nothing as to what a person can accomplish (even in a fantasy show). Too bad its over because we won’t get a chance to see what can happen. If you mean there should have been more leading up to this, I totally agree. But really folks, grow up pls.
talvikorppi,
” Last week in some thread I was saying I don’t know how they were going to resolve the Unsullied/Dothraki/Drogon situation if Dany is killed by Jon/Arya/somebody. It seems D&D didn’t either, they just skipped it!”
Yes, I think the Unsullied/Dothraki was a hard part, and they skipped it. The way I explain it to myself is: Unsullied follow orders (they did as slaves, they kept doing so as Dany’s free soldiers); without orders they are lost. As for Dothraki, I should rewatch season 1 or re-read the books, but it looked to me that they mostly follow Power, and their Khaleesi just fell from her horse, so they would just ride away (she had no ‘blood-of-her-blood’ among them)
My thought is grey worm didn’t kill Jon because he cant make decisions for himself. Although he was a “free man” with Dany he was always still told what to do. Without a leader he cant decide to kill Jon without a command. He needs the people of Westeros to choose a new leader to tell him what to do. He obviously isn’t going to let Jon or Tyrion be king so why would the counsel recommend them as options.
Sou,
yeah, i thought that bizarre myself,
Oz, thank you for your recaps. Unsullied no more!
My first answer seems to have vanished (sorry if it reappears and you have two…). I’ll try to sum up my thoughts.
I don’t think they did it to please Grey Worm but to avoid yet another civil war. In the council, there are former supporters of Dany, and they have an army left on the spot. The cut and the lighter tone of the “Electing council” undermined it, but it must have been a pretty tense situation: Jon is a Queenslayer; remember how Jaimie was despised for killing his king while *avoiding* a bloodshed ?
“His parentage not being discussed only makes it a sidestory for hyping Daenerys’ turn to madness, while in reality it’s the issue par excellence.”
I agree it is a central theme, but I don’t interpret the ending the way you do. Parentage and rules of successions are an issue. How many horrors did it bring within the former seasons? Family (being raised together, get affectionate links) was good, but ligneage wad a doom. Jon was allowed to be freed both of his absence of ligneage and from the weight of the ligneage. A free folk guy. Just as the kingdom: Bran kept telling “he is not a Stark anymore”. For me, he does not embody a family getting the throne (and the three other “Starks”, each in their own way, cut their links with the throne), but an abstract “State”.
Was I the only one to feel a huge sense of relief at the ending? I mean for a couple minutes I was afraid Jon would decide to “liberate” the world with Daenerys, thus undermining the whole character progression (like Jaime). So yeah, I felt relieved for things ending as they should have, unlike the previous 2 or three episodes.
I suppose Jon should have died as well, and the Unsullied were a good means for that. However Grey Worm did realise they had no way out and needed leverage. Jon was that leverage (Tyrion was repeatedly described as hated by everyone, nobody would care for him). The Unsullied only gave up King’s Landing after being given ships and stayed long enough to ensure Jon doesn’t become a celebrated hero.
And well, Jon has to keep living with the memory of losing not one, but two loves. At least he is with Ghost again.
Truly the largest weirdness in the episode is nobody bitching about the Northern independence. Sansa was once more publicly undermining her relatives same as for the last couple years (poor Edmure as well).
I love the theory I recently read that the Night King somehow infected Bran when he touched Bran and that Bran became a bit sinister and thus his change in his demeanor. Then he conspired with Sansa for this ultimate end, with Starks ruling Westeros. Sansa has been very power hungry over the last 2 seasons and desperately wanted to rule the north. Probably no merit to it all but it helps me explain Bran’s accession to the Throne.
Someone may have already made a prediction but, what do you think Bran the Broken will do with Drogon once he finds them?
Sorry, I can’t help but continue to theorize even though our watch has ended. 🙁
Excellent recap and I love every minute of season 8. We got the story that the writers and producers and George Martin wanted us to see. Those that were dissatisfied should go write their own shows and quit whining. Thanks for the recaps. (Didn’t Grey Worm and his gf plan to go to Naath after the war was over? Why would GW and the unsullied want to stay in a country that will forever consider them the Butchers of Kings Landing?)
Thanks Oz! Love your recap! I would have been happy to see Jonno on the throne. After all, he was the rightful heir. Too bad that Wormsy was havin’ none of it. What’s west of Westeros? Oz?
howtathor,
Westworld 😉
TOIVA,
What makes you think Drogon melted the throne? Just before he was about to melt Jon, there was a slight blip in his furnace and he then whomped on the throne. Later on Bran asks about Drogon’s whereabouts and then tells the small council he’ll find him himself. Perhaps Bran CAN warg into a dragon after all.
I just find that “want to move on” excuse interesting (lame?) because there are tens of thousands of actors and screenwriters waiting tables and driving Ubers for years and years just waiting for that one big break; and so many really talented actors who film movies that never get distributed, TV show pilots that never air, or shows that get cancelled without warning after a couple of episodes.*
To have the financial security of a multi-season, high per-episode salary show is an actor’s dream. Sure, it can be a grind – just like a professional baseball player can say it’s a grind to play 163 games in a season and have to travel all over the country for away games. I’m sure the GoT actors who described in interviews the 55 grueling nights spent shooting “The Long Night” weren’t implying they’d rather be attending casting calls and doing auditions back home.
Whatever field we’re talking about, a desire to “move on” is no excuse for cutting corners or giving half-hearted effort. (And if writers felt creatively played out or physically exhausted, then hire a few more to help out.)
I am not here to weigh in on the quality of the final two seasons of GoT or the wisdom of shortening the seasons from ten episodes to seven and then six. I just cringe when I hear or read about a supposed desire to “move on.”
* Excuse the long personal whinge to follow:
Some years back, I got intrigued by a TV series (I forget the name) hyped as a modern-day Romeo & Juliet story. It was about a district attorney’s son and an adult film producer’s daughter who fall in love. One of the twists was that the D.A.’s anti-porn crusades were motivated by political ambition rather than moral conviction, and he was quite possibly corrupt as f*ck; while the movie producer was actually a kind-hearted philanthropist and industry reformer.
The young actors who played the son and daughter were really good. The young actress who played the producer’s daughter was Olivia Wilde in what I think was her very first role. The first few episodes cleverly set up the brewing antagonism between the fathers while their children fell in love at first sight.
… And then, after about four episodes, I tuned in one night to watch the fifth episode… and nothing. Some rerun of some old syndicated TV show had been slotted in by the network. With no warning or explanation, the series I’d been watching had been cancelled.
It wasn’t until years later that Olivia Wilde returned to the screen in a different show.
I guess what I’m getting at is that opportunities to be part of a hit TV show are so rare – and more often the product of luck than talent – that I find it hard to listen to “time to move on” excuses. The (unspoken) response by the crotchety part of me would be: “Shut up and count your blessings.”
F*ck Wormsy. He turned into a villain. Almost everyone on this show saw a loved one killed – including Jon (Ygritte). No excuse for mass murder of defenseless POWs.
Raenarys,
I’m not sure what Bran will do, but I can imagine the opening scene of a new TV series in 2029…a small figure knocks on the door of a wooden hut in the snow:
“Jon, Drogon’s back…”
dickon,
LOL. I think we are well past that.
I watched it again last night, paused it a few times to revel in some of the cinematic badassery.
I applaud the finale for what it did with what it had, meaning they truly gave most of our characters a wrap to their arc (some we like, some we don’t)
One thing that I read elsewhere and have had some fun imagining..
What if the first 10 mins of this finale was literally the last 10 mins of the season and we had a season 9 coming.
Season 7 should have been 10 episodes setting up the conflict with the Night King. Season 8 should have been another 10 episodes resolving that conflict and setting up the showdown with Cersei as well as further establishing Daenerys as a dangerous, mentally unhinged conqueror. And Season 9 should have been the evisceration of Cersei and King’s Landing and the fight against this new Queen of the Ashes, out to liberate all of humankind, through blood and fire.
borrowed this from another site but it is a cool ‘what if’
Anywho, still loved the finale we got. And love this phenomenon of a T.V. show HBO gave us.
Now I gotta find something else to watch
Emily,
“Still confused why Jon didn’t get immediately executed.”
—–
I’m still confused why Jon didn’t immediately thank Drogon (“Hey thanks big guy!”) for disposing of the body; and then if anyone e.g., Grey Worm asked “Where is our Queen?”, simply answer “Drogon flew off with her.” (Grey Worm: “Yeah, that’s what they did at Daznak’s Pit a while back.”)
Efi,
I agree with most of what you said. The final half of the last episode doesn’t really make sense, and the other half has the focus more on Tyrion than on Jon. In a way, for me they could have better ended the episode after the burning of the Throne. I think a fantasy story should be internally consistent, and Bran on the Throne (with this nonexistent setup) doesn’t feel “in-world” to me. This is not whining, it’s asking for a final GoT resolution instead of 20 minutes like Jaime in Dorne.
> universe does the hero of the story get punished
I can actually accept this as a grim consequence of the Westerosi politics, but if at least we get to see Jon coming to his decision himself and deal with the psychological consequences, but that would take more time. In the books it might be internal monologue, but Tyrion taking over the reasoning makes it seem like Jon has no own motivations. Either “duty for the realm” or “love for his Stark family”, with some more scenes it should have been possible. Also, the love story between Daenerys and Jon would have benefitted from scenes instead of Tyrion’s and Davos comments (“show, don’t tell”). Actually, perhaps somewhat more controversial, but for me more logical could be Daenerys only burning the Red Keep, and imprisoning Tyrion for treason. Jon decides to marry Daenerys, after she kind of promises to be mercifull to Tyrion, because Jon thinks he can in this way control her power, or because he’s in love after all, or both (perhaps a dialogue with an angry Arya to explain that he thinks he can protect the Realm in this manner). But Daenerys burns Tyrion nevertheless. She then demands the fielty of Sansa, which Sansa refuses by Raven, and Jon kills Daenerys, to protect his Stark family (they actually gave hints in this direction). Instead of a conversation of Jon with Tyrion we have some more conversations of Jon with Daenerys, and perhaps with Arya or Sansa, so it’s clearer what he thinks.
Jon can only be punished for Queenslaying if all the lords “pretend” they followed Daenerys as their Queen, but it’s rather sardonic. Even Jaime was spared for slaying the Mad King. And the NW makes little sense, just have some more Unsullied died, Drogon side with Jon, or Jon telling GW Daenerys flew off (if he can lie to Mance, he can lie to GW). I think it could make most sense if Jon himself decided to go North. But even if he gets punished, at least his “best friend” and “most trusted advisor” could come to say bye. And Dorne or the Iron Islands staying in the Realm under Bran if the North doesn’t is ridiculous. It’s good Tyrion didn’t propose Hot Pie, who can offer the Small Council the best catering, thus serving the realm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bqqcw9/spoilers_main_jon_snow_is_azor_ahai_and_the/
Pretty dope.
Me too.
It seemed that Bran’s dialogue with each character in S8 was a variation of “This is exactly where you’re supposed to be.”
Are we to conclude that he foresaw events and everyone’s roles in them, and just let everything play out… including his eventual election as King?
Ten Bears,
Ever the honorable idiot…..
fdr,
Why didn’t Tyrion kill Dany himself instead of pushing Jon to do it?
Tyrion could have and should have been executed several times already. If Varys and Tyrion had concluded Jon aka Aegon would be a better monarch, then Tyrion ought to have eliminated Dany himself. (I assume that’s what Varys was trying to do, if, as speculated. Varys has been trying to poison her food.)
Then again, Tyrion did confess at his trial in the Vale (something like): “I’m not very good at violence, but I’m good at convincing others to do violence for me.”
Efi,
Your whinging, while hilarious, is also exhausting. You deserve a rest.
I was at Hangout Fest too. I was gonna say we might have saw each other and not even known, but I probably wouldve noticed the shirt.
I like the restuarant analogy though, it seemed to fit well. The real problem I had with the finale is that by the time I got through the other episodes of the season, which in my opinion just weren’t very good outside of episode 1 and 4 (of course with some good/epic scenes and moments from the other eps as well), I was truly just indifferent to it. All the character endings were good to great if not executed that well except Greyworm (they didnt kill jon on the spot then held him for weeks being out of control for how much they were for Dany at this point notwithstanding, his final moments being him giving a lecture of justice was ludacris when he turned into nothing but the ruthless savage tarly accused them of being. He started the ground slaughter and committed countless war crimes, he deserved justice more than anyone left alive.)
Also I felt Aryas ENTIRE arc was her family. She made one line about not wanting to be a stereotypical lady pawned off to a man with no choice, she didnt make a stand against living in castles and certainly not winterfell. She made ONE single line about traveling away, and EVERY other move she made was to get back to or avenge her family. To leave them instantly for what feels like a set up to a spin off that most likely will not happen wasnt the ending for me.
Thank You all, Watchers and fans on this site!
It was a beautiful journey through GoT and reading here helped me to manage the shorter and the longer nights until the next season aired and dvds were released. I wouldn’t have known how to get through without You all.
I look forward to read here henceforth and hope (and think) there’s enough stuff to talk about until we will get a prequel.
I was very satisfied with the ending of the story, because my hopes and wishes for my characters are fulfilled.
*Sandor dying by killing the mountain, not without dear words (as she is able to give) from Arya
*Arya sailing west – without Gendry or another honk, she needs none
*Jon refusing regality and riding north with *Tormund and *Ghost – no Dany anymore
*Jamie and *Cersei leaving the world, together as they came in it
*Sansa being crowned as QitN
*Tyrion, *Sam, *Davos, *Brienne (and *Pod!) alive and now to rule the six kingdoms with
*Bronn (I like very much), who got his castle – not two, ok, but Highgraden is much better than the twins!
*Dany dead – I never saw the possibility, she could reign the seven kingdoms and would “break the wheel” (very diffuse), she was too obsessed, every time, when all her title, title, titles were named, when she declared she was “born to rule…” and all that, her face grew cold and rigid, as if there was someone else talking out of her – all her ancestors perhaps. Of course she had her good side also, but all in all always was much too selfcentric.
*Bran being king – good choise, I think, and good to see, that he has found back to a kind of humor
Good to see Sweet *Robin alive – it wasn’t his fault, that he became who he is
*Greyworm sailing to Naath to be near Missandei, as near as he can be as long he’s alive
*Euron killed
*Yara ruler of the Iron Islands
*Drogon alive but gone
Sorry, if I forgot one – I have to rewatch the whole season to remember everyone and everything, but I won’t have the possibility until the DVDs will be released.
Sou,
“Jon, poor old Jon who only wanted to serve, so conflicted. Needing to make that awful choice and kill the woman he had loved so much.”
But Jon didn’t kill Ygritte. (Just kidding.)
Seriously, it was never conveyed (to me) that Jon really loved Dany. Perhaps that was because time constraints precluded the progression of a romance. From my perspective, it was due to the dearth of dialogue between the two supposed lovers. Even their first “love” scene was entirely wordless. Just a knock on a stateroom door and then the two of them going at it.
I was convinced of Jon & Ygritte’s love story because it evolved from extended wordplay – mostly initiated and followed through by Ygritte* until Jon’s stubborn veneer finally melted away. Her death scene was heart-wrenching for that reason. I didn’t feel the same way about Dany’s death.
* Rose Leslie must’ve done something right. 💍
Sandor. The Lord of Light wasn’t done with him yet. 🙂
Jon is gone to a place where he no longer has to choose between love and duty. Where he no longer needs to carry the burden to do the right thing. Where he can be free to roam like the wolf that he is.
I am so emotional today.
RG,
“Also I would watch an Arya spin-off. Even better if the Lord of Light for some reason decided to bring back the Hound to keep his one remaining eye on her. Just putting that out there. 🙂”
—–
I just read your prior comment before posting my similar thought a few minutes ago (at 12:48 on
pm). What’s that old saying about minds that think alike? 🤔
Cote de Pablo
https://a.wattpad.com/cover/30776677-352-k408044.jpg
Yeah, this is pretty much how I rationalised it for myself. Ho-hum.
Never mind that Grey Worm (the supreme commander of the Unsullied, whom all the Unsullied would follow) was on full rage and vengeance mode, not just a robotic soldier… And the Dothraki, their culture based on rape and pillage, just nicely agreed to go back home after their “messaiah” was killed. Maybe they’d raped and pillaged enough offscreen during the couple of weeks we didn’t see.
I think the first part (to Dany’s death) was brilliant. It had a haunting, otherwordly quality to it. And no, Tyrion didn’t have to explain to Jon why he (Jon) had to do what he had to do. Jon knew it but he struggled with the decision, a woman he (had) loved, oaths he swore, the honourable thing, the right thing – also couldn’t say outloud “Yeah, Imma gonna kill the Queen” with Unsullied guards right outside the thin door.
In the Throne Room, Jon desperately wanted to find a reason not to kill Dany but she said all the wrong things, he could see she was a bit cray-cray. Delusional, megalomaniac, ready to burn more and more people to “liberate” them because only she knew what was right. She tried telling Jon he’d always known what’s right, but perhaps Jon remembered Ygritte (“You know nothing, Jon Snow.”) and knew he hasn’t always been right. He’s tortured by that thought later when Tyrion comes to see him in prison.
Anyway, then we’re jolted from that otherworldly climactic scene to the more everyday Great Council, which went splendidly. Wait, what?
That middle part was definitely… a weird, bad bit of writing.
I loved the “what happened next” bits. Almost more on the sweet end of bittersweet I expected, but not a perfect happy “… and they lived happily ever after” ending.
I don’t need spoon-fed but there comes a point when rationalising writing with imagined off-screen scenes or never articulated character “thoughts” (motivations) gets a bit much.
Hey, I had no problem with Dany burning down KL after the bells (narrative-wise. A massacre of civillians is of course a huge problem!). It was all hinted and laid out, for me. When she started, I was, omg, of course! She sees the Kingslanders as her enemies, they didn’t rise up for her, they don’t love her like the slaves did.
But the Sansa/Arya/LF plot in S7 required far too much watcher rationalising, as did the 806 Unsullied/Dothraki situation and the Great Council.
We don’t need spoon-fed, but we have to be given something!
Unfortunately, D&D seem to favour a surprise GOTCHA moment writing style (hiding lots of conversation and actions for the sake of a “surpriseeee!” moment) that doesn’t appeal to me. I prefer the Hitchcockian way: suspense is not the bomb blowing up, it’s knowing the bomb is there and not knowing when or if it’ll blow up.
When GoT started, it was more Hitchcockian, less GOTCHA, now it’s the reverse. The “feel”, the “tone” is different, and I guess that’s what a lot of the fans are reacting to.
Still, I’ve enjoyed this ride tremendously and I’m so glad and grateful I got to experience it all.
Enharmony1625,
…”From various interviews by Maisie leading up to season 8, she pretty much indicated that she was done with Arya, but never say never. Things change. I totally agree though, I can’t imagine anyone else in that role. She inhabited Arya completely, and no one else in my mind can live up to her portrayal.”
______
At the risk of being redundant, on an earlier thread I referenced the movies “Before Sunrise” (1995) and “Before Sunset” (2004) as an example of how to cast the same actors in the same roles in a sequel.
Pangumpy,
Oh man, I would LOVE that. And only Jon can, for lack of a better word, tame him. Thus having to jump back into this crazy world.
Thanks, as always for the recap, Oz!
Didn’t the last 3ER say he was a thousand years old? Is that the normal lifespan? Did they really mean to make someone King who might live a millennium? Or does no one besides Bran know that?
I have other thoughts but that is the most pressing and I’d appreciate any and all thoughts on this subject!
Ten Bears,
Well, maybe he didn’t want Jon to follow Daenerys, assuming he would lose his position to Davos. Once he is in the cell, he pushes Jon (otherwise he dies) and so Jon is also removed from the succession. He has a 1 on 1 with Bran and ends on top.
Or simply, he didn’t lose his belief in D until KL burned, and after his siblings died he didn’t care about the future for a while. I believe with Drogon or the Unsullied guarding we are meant to believe only Jon could pass. Well, Arya should be able to sneak in too…
My head canon is that Meereen reverted back to slavery, with Daario being the richest and most powerful slavemaster. It’s in his nature.
I never cared much for the seasons and seasons of the Meereen storyline, I watched this show for what was happening in Westeros.
Does anyone else see that Jon/Aegon is basically Aemon? Neither Targaryen wanted the throne and went north.
Speak for yourself Oz! Like my Queen, I KNOW what is right! You don’t get to choose.
😉
My Queen NOW AND ALWAYS!
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Yessss❤️❤️❤️
Young Dragon,
I’m a Jon fan as well and also loved it.
I think he got the best ending of all, going to the true North and leaving behind all the treachery and back-stabbing of the “civilized” kingdoms.
He will finally be happy up there, find a wife, and share his life with her, his friends and Ghost 😉
Ten Bears,
Excellent post!!! I could not agree more.
I think many are forgetting that it wasn’t just Jon and the Unsullied/Dothraki that were at King’s Landing. Davos was there with the Northern Army and the Knights of the Vale. Arya was there, too. Had Grey Worm killed Jon on the spot, a new war would have started. It is not hard for me to imagine Jon confessing, Grey Worm wanting his head, and Davos trying to make some sort of arrangement in order to prevent more bloodshed. He had already done exactly that two scenes ago. I didn’t need to see it again, personally, but I guess many people did.
As for the North being and an independent kingdom, it’s what they’re fighting to be since season 1. They said that they’d never kneel before southern kings when they proclaimed Robb their king. Lyanna Mormont wrote to Stannis that House Mormont knew no king but the King in the North. They didn’t like Dany or Cersei because they wanted to rule over *seven* kingdoms, not six. Jon told Dany many times that the northerners didn’t wanted foreign kings or queens. Sansa asked Dany for their independence when they talked in the library. Yes, Bran is, if we assume he’s still is somewhat Bran, a Stark. But there is no way of knowing if his successor will be from the North. Of course the North’s independence was going to come up again during the meeting. To paraphrase Daenerys: if the other kingdoms wanted their independence, all they had to do was ask for it. They had their chance right there. They didn’t take it.
As for the Starks, they were always going to go their separate ways, even if none of the events of the series happened. They were going to marry lords and ladies, become knights or rangers, and live their lives. It’s not that they’re not ‘a pack’ anymore because each is in a different place. They’re still a family, they don’t need to be under the same roof for me to know that their bond is unbreakable and that if any one of them is in need, the others will do everything in their power to help them.
*screaming*
with all respect, this is the sort of conspiracy theory that has led to a toxic fandom who would never be happy with anything less than their own pet theories come to pass-regardless of any merit or no. some of the theories I have read are bonkers frankly and have just led people to hate the show for the reason they professed to love it early on-that is that it doesn’t do what you expect it to.
Bran, we knew, didn’t want anything-it makes him the perfect king plus he made Tyrion his Hand and was obviously happy to let him and the small council get on with it. Tyrion made mistakes but he learned from them, he was also brave enough to stand up to both Cersei and Dany to stand up for what was right, at great risk to himself.
I am a Jon fan and also loved it, noone is going to police him up there-he’s free to go off with his best friend and his dog and hopefully heal-can you imagine how damaged he must be losing two loves in his life?! I love that Sansa is leading the North, the North deserves independence and a smart leader. She wasn’t power hungry -she just didn’t want to be treated as she had in the past. I love that Area is out there exploring the world, a woman that can take care of herself and that, in contrast to Dany who had none, was saved from being a cold blooded assassin for love of her family.
As a book and show fan I am happy at the result but sad its all over.
There were holes in this episode true, but it was pretty satisfying on the whole
Lyanna Smith,
Exactly! Bran is only a figure head and he knows this. In accepting Tyrion’s nomination, he allows Jon a way out. Else I am certain with Greyworm gone, people would have pressed Jon to become something he did not want to be, especially after Dany’s death. Bran also ensures that the realm is governed by someone who is capable, if not always perfect – Tyrion. So I don’t get why people are upset with Brandon Stark King of the Andals and the First Men – Bran’s decision pretty much paved a road to a little happiness and or peace for arguably two of the most loved characters in the series: Jon and Tyrion. I can’t call it a sacrifice on Bran’s part because someone with no wants, has nothing to sacrifice. Still I think it was a solid move in favor of people he has some sympathy for.
Understood. It’s taken these two days for me to accept that it’s over, and the cast/crew are done with it.
Ten Bears,
Sure. But that is definitely Gendry’s daughter born on her westward voyage. Maisie can play the adult her soon enough.
Yeah, a corps of ~3,000 Unsullied are coming to “liberate” the peaceful people of Naath. It looks more like a military regime taking over.
Book stuff:
Thank you Oz- as always on point! What a journey this has been. Irrespective of whether we liked, disliked or felt nada for how this ended, here’s to 8 years of fantastic speculation and enjoyment. What a TV series!!! Now I am going to read them books..
Yara (Iron Islands) said “aye” to King Bran. Apparently forgetting Queen Daenerys, to whom she so fiercly proclaimed loyalty only a few minutes before, had granted independence to the Iron Islands under Queen Yara in S6.
I don’t want to nit-pick about plotholes etc. but this really was one.
It didn’t detract from my enjoyment of the finale, so I can let it go. The Iron Islands have never been important or dear to me in the story.
As to the Seven kingdoms. Even in the show, it’s not really accurate, but they like the sound of seven for religious reasons.
Efi,
People should really buy a dictionary and look up what genocide means. Even if she had killed every last person in KL (which she didn’t, they were reopening the brothels mere weeks later, the damage clearly wasn’t as bad as it looked) that still wouldn’t be genocide.
That sounds lovely, and I’d be down for that, but none of that was really spelled out or implied in the acting or dialogue. We just have to infer it. Which is almost a choose your own adventure take on the story to be honest.
And that’s the thing. Jon’s struggle with his personal revelations. Dany’s cheerful mental break. Sansa and Bran’s actions or inactions and even Arya going from the pack survives to sailing away… We had to fill in a lot of blanks ourselves as to why some of these things happened.
This season required A LOT of watcher math. We have to guess at motivations based on previous seasons of development, because what everyone’s saying is either so limited as to be unclear and/or the opposite of what they’d previous stated.
We have to infer that Bran is actually doing a good thing for Jon, since all we know is he thought it was super important to tell Jon he was sleeping with his aunt just in time for her to lose everyone else she loves, go crazy sooner and burn out all the competition. But then he didn’t warn that she would go crazy-though we all know he saw it.
We have to infer that he knew Jon could only be happy in the North, and that’s why he accepted the throne without saying another word about Aegon.
We have to infer that for some reason, Davos or whoever, but probably Davos, convinced Grey Worm not to just straight up kill Jon and instead call all the heads of Westeros that Dany was about to rain fire on over to have a meeting about what to do with Tyrion and Jon. And that Tyrion, while in chains, would then still have so much sway that he changed the entire system of rule and just picked the new ruler right there in the dragon pit.
Then we have to infer that everybody already knows the watch is gone so sending him away was just to appease Grey Worm so he’d take the Unsullied away (I guess) and give Jon whatever peace he can find with the Wildlings since he didn’t want to deal with any bs anymore.
I mean, we do anyway, but some good dialogue-a few sentences here and there-would have really clarified so many things.
For example, left to my own devices, I infer from his regal nod that All seeing Bran realized Sansa was going to be a pain in the butt for the rest of his life unless she got to wear a crown (even though she said the North was sick of kneeling) and so he let her take what she needed, hoping someday she would heal from all she’d been through and learn to trust someone again.
Either that or he was rewarding her for causing a lot of the dissent that gave him the throne to begin with and he’s really evil now that he’s the 3ER King.
See? A little conversational clarity and I might know the real answer lol
Sorry for venting I’m just…well, clearly I’m a little disappointed we didn’t have more time to explore the whys and all the things left unaddressed.
That said, I’m just going to be happy that Jon, Tormund, Brienne, Pod, Arya and Davos are still alive. Oh and Ghost got pets. 🙂
I’m also going to infer Meera is still doing okay in the Neck and not planning to murder the new king for causing her family so much grief and suffering and not giving her another thought.
I can’t help getting some serious God Emperor of Dune vibes regarding the Three Eyed Raven ruling over Westeros.
Enharmony1625,
I agree, I cannot see anyone else as Arya. I hear she wants a break and is not interested in returning to the character. Maybe after a few years or 10, Maise would consider it. Especially if she gets a chance to do other work in between and the new Ayra story has something meaningful to her (both Maise and Ayra). Or she gets to be an executive producer, writer, or director. Many actors use taking an acting role with the condition they get a opportunity to gain experience behind the camera. For example, that is how Ron Howard got his start, I think it was the movie Eat My Dust, he agreed to star in it in exchange for a chance to direct another project for the producer Roger Corman (I think..this was a long time ago). But there are other examples of the actor to producer/director transition. After a break from Ayra, Maise may want to revisit the character. Hey, Patrick Stewart is back as Jean Luc Picard in another Star Trek spin-off. Never say never! And, Nina nailed it the first time with Maise. We can hope!
Except, after burning all the Khals, Dany explicitly made every Dothraki man her blood rider, blood of my blood. She even used the phrase in her Nuremberg Rally scene in Kings Landing.
So it’s a bit weird Jon only got imprisoned, pending a council of Westerosi nobles, not killed for killing their religious messaiah. Ho-hum.
If they hook Bran up to a weirwood tree, he’ll live hundreds of years and the worry about 6 Kingdoms succession will be moot.
I’m more concerned about Queen Sansa and her willingness to ever trust a man again enough to make more Starks.
Grayven Reyne,
She trusted Theon… 🙁
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
Yes!
And, another parallel, when Tyrion brings up what could happen with Jon’s sisters under Dany’s rule (will your sister’s bend the knee?) reminds me of when Varys asks Ned what will happen to his daughters if he doesn’t confess. Both Jon and Ned were willing to hold to their honor and not take a specific action until someone else points out the consequences that could befall their loved ones if they don’t action. And in both cases it was Arya and Sansa!
Ten Bears,
DAMN.
Ser Brocolli McBrocolliface,
The parallels are clear, but just a clarification: Aemon was already at the Wall. He refused to break his vows to the Night’s Watch to return to King’s Landing.
Ten Bears,
wow…and she did do physical action scenes on NCIS…but I’ll still vote for Maise.
Lady MarMar,
The 3ER’s origins and longevity may be different in the books. I don’t know for sure. I have not read them. On the show, at least, the 3ER told Bran in S6e3 that he’d been sitting in that cave for 1,000 years:
S6e3 Bran & 3ER
(After first ToJ visit)
Bran: “What’s in that tower? I want to go back there.”
3ER: “I’ve told you many times, stay too long where you don’t belong and you will never return.”
Bran: “Why do I want to return? So I can be a cripple again? So I can talk to an old man in a tree?”
3ER: “You think I wanted to sit here for 1,000 years watching the world from a distance as the roots grew through me?”
Bran: “So why did you?”
3ER: “I was waiting for you.”
Bran: “I don’t want to be you.”
3ER: “I don’t blame you. You won’t be here forever. You won’t be an old man in a tree. But before you leave, you must learn.”
Bran: “Learn what?”
3ER. “Everything.”
This is probably the biggest reason why I didn’t buy the conclusion. From the beginning, I think we all suspected that there would someday be a romantic thing between Jon and Dany. But as soon as we learned Jon’s parentage, I really hoped the show wouldn’t go there. Learning she was his aunt just introduced an ick feeling for me. Plus I think we all knew it was something that Jon wouldn’t be cool with, and so from the start we were just waiting for their “love story” to dissolve.
This is especially why it felt manufactured, although the lack of evolution over time and sparky conversations didn’t help.
Perhaps if Dany had landed a season or two before and they’d had some banter-filled scenes over more time, and fallen in love before we learned she was his aunt, I would have gotten excited about it. And then been on the same journey with them as it devolved into tragedy, feeling the confusion and pain along with them.
Without buying into their love story, I simply couldn’t relate to Jon’s refusal to accept her carnage, and even his defense of it. It also made it harder to accept his grief and conflict over killing her. From this side of the curtain, it felt like he was weak, not in denial.
talvikorppi,
I missed this one! But I thought the “blood-of…” were like brothers supposed to die with the Khal; maybe I had the English word wrong (what is it? blood-rider?).
I wrote a long comment several times to your previous answer, but somehow, it won’t show. So I’ll stick to a shorter one: I agreed with what you said (the “middle part” was lame, scenario, acting and cinematography). I had no pb with LF plot (it felt “hitchockian” to me because when LF told her “she’ll be Lady of Winterfell” I thought “now she’ll outplay him, how?”), nor with many things people have complained about in this season (I just adapted to a more opera-like or fable-like story-telling). My only other regret is Jon & Dany’s story, too allusive to work well (could be improved a bit, but for many long reasons, I don’t think they could get what was needed, anyway). Still a great journey for me!
There seems to be a fair amount of whinging about why Grey Worm would leave Jon alive. It’s pretty simple. He had no other choice. His Queen is dead. Her dragon, the source of all of their power, is gone. A few thousand Unsullied and Dothraki remain. The remnants of the Northern Army are still in King’s Landing, with the remaining Lords of Westeros and their forces not too far away. Jon and Tyrion were Grey Worm’s only hope of leaving Westeros alive. Executing them would have started another war, and eventually all of the Unsullied and Dothraki would be dead. Could we have used a scene of Davos explaining this to Grey Worm and convincing him to let Jon live? Maybe. But not really.
Thank you to all the wonderful writers and commenters here who have made this such a great place. I don’t comment often (I got a Hodor once!) but I do enjoy the level-headed and intelligent discussion here. I’ve been a fan of the show ever since HBO announced it. I hadn’t read the books, but I was an avid fantasy reader when I was young and thrilled that HBO would take on such an ambitious production. I read the first book after Season 1 but then decided that I would rather watch the show and then read the books after the show finishes. I’m happy with that decision, as I was able to truly enjoy all the surprises along the way.
It was an excellent final season for me. Episode 2 was one of my favorite episodes of the entire series. So many wonderful moments with these characters we love. Episode 3 was a cinematic masterpiece of dread and terror and ultimate triumph. Did it hit all of its beats perfectly? No, of course not. But what Miguel Sapochnik and the cast and crew gave us was something utterly spectacular. I would have loved to see Theon, instead of making a hopeless suicide charge at the Night King, hold his ground and protect Bran, sacrificing his life so Arya has time to sneak in and deliver the fatal blow. With his dying breath, he watches as the Night King shatters. He dies knowing the war is won. That didn’t happen. Oh no! What we got was still amazing.
Dany’s turn toward Queen of the Ashes has been set up from the very first season. For years, she had wanted to fly her dragons to the Red Keep and take the throne with Fire & Blood, but listened to her advisors instead. Had she done that, she’d likely still have all of her dragons, most of her army, and Jorah and Missandei would still be alive. This was her story. She was always going to be the Queen of the Ashes. Seeing the horror and devastation she wrought upon the city with her weapon of mass destruction was truly visceral and unforgettable film-making. Perhaps we could have used a few more episodes to let the story breathe, but I don’t think it would have mattered for a certain subset of the fandom. They were always going to complain, no matter how this story ended. The whinging hordes screaming into the void in a frothy rage of impotent fury that a show didn’t end the way they think it should. If anyone truly lost the Game of Thrones, it’s them.
I loved the journey, I’m happy with the denouement, there are still mysteries to ponder, and I will miss these amazing characters and the rich world they inhabited. I have never before been this invested in a story. It’s a fond farewell.
Elli,
What I’m wondering how big is the portion of planetos that is shown of the known map. I mean the most south part is the summer sothoryos. But that is a warm climate meaning that below that needs to be the south pole part and a colder climate right. So I think we maybe only got around 1/4 max of the map of planetos. who knows what is happening in other parts.
Rizzo T,
I think season 7 is as good as it is, I think that it should have maybe 1 episode more.
Season 8 if hadding more episode should have been 8a 5 episodes and 8b another 5. With 8a ending with the WW treat and part 1 of episode 4 ending with Dany telling in the north she will take back the Iron Throne with fire and blood. As some mini-cliffhanger. 8b could be 3 episodes for defeating Cersei. 1 For defeating Dany of 50 a 60 minutes and 1 for weeks later.
I don’t think Dany’s arc should have been a whole season, the whole point was that she decided to force other’s to follow her way of a good-world, and Jon ended it for her at that moment. It wouldn’t have made a lot of sense if Jon would let her live there. And what could the story be, dany destroying WF or something?
As for part 2, for me there should have been more scenes. Sam with Gilly for instance, Drogon and Dany in Essos maybe he drops her off at Daario’s feet and he burrying her.
Having re-watched the final Jon scene, it does seem to me that he is leaving for good. I know he is wearing Night’s Watch garb but he is the only one in black. The Free Folk would not need him to ‘lead’ them home.
The last look he gives the closing gate (why would he bother if was going to see it again) and the slight flicker as he turns away does say to me that he is not going back. He is taking his place amongst the Free Folk.
So Dany felt safe entering the throne room alone because Drogon was guarding the entrance? Only one other person could get past him?
I am supposing that Jon/Aegon’s Targaryen blood saved him?
(I don’t remember once Dany and Jon talking about his ability to ride a dragon?)(That is all done with knowing looks , seemingly.)
A the 44:51 time stamp there a fade to black approximately 5 to 6 seconds.
There should have been a card tipped in that said “A BUNCH OF STUFF HAPPENS”.
(After that there is a VERY LONG hold shot of Tyrion.)
I can only think that Grey Worm is still in a quandary as to what to do because he never speaks to why he agreed to a meeting of the Houses.
The whole transition is odd and unexplained in the narrative.
With some imagination that could have been fixed.
Thoughts: Grey Worm did indeed see Drogon take Dany’s body away … off screen.
Grey Worm is gob-smacked that Drogon did incinerate Jon.
Grey Worn can only think to take Jon into custody.
(Note: the story has Dany EXPLICITLY make Grey Worm supreme captain for the Unsullied and one guesses the Dothraki? Who now faithfully obey his orders.)
That’s a thought.
I cannot account for who called the pow wow at the Dragon Pit, Davos? It could be…possibly in consultation with Arya.
I guess it was Davos who convinced Grey Worm?
Ten Bears,
I admit that I squeed out loud at this. Perfect!
About the drogon burning the Iron throne. Something remembered of earlier seasons that Tyrion stated. Dragon’s are smarter than humans. I think that Drogon understood what had happened, that that throne corrupted his mother. He was not angry at Jon because he knew Jon did what needed to be done. He was mad at that throne who had changed his mother from good to evil.
Bran did?
Strange ending this is, the ending is happy for the characters itself. Jon happy beyond the wall. Arya happy west of westeros. Bran somehow happy in KL doing his contribution. Sansa happy in winterfell helping her people. Sam happy with his family and doing the job he always wanted too do. Bronn/Tyrion back with Tyrion and I could go on.
but what makes me sad is that for them to be happy some important stuff that we vallue as watchers needed to go. The whole family stick together needed to be thrown out of the window, because that would force them together and make them not so happy. The friendships like Sam and Jon needed to go etc. It was a hard to swallow pill to know that the happiness of the characters came with a big cost and sacrifice.
Jon is escorted to Castle Black by a pair of Crows.
Implying there has been a replenishment of CB with Night’s Watch?
We never find out how many Crows survived.
My impression was that Jon was going with the Free Folk only temporally.
Jon is very honorable.
Anyone think on this?
With the Unsullied and Dothraki gone away, I doubt they would ever want to return, only Westerosi are left, most all of whom are grateful to Jon.
Yara will probably be sensible enough to not make a fuss.
Is it known , more widely , who Jon is? Now? That is not clear.
Jon could be offered the Throne as Aegon!
I known Jon wouldn’t take it but he sure could go visiting Winterfell if he wanted.
Kevin, children grow, leave home, little birds must fly. Parents welcome the possibility to be on their own again, husband and wife can concentrate again on their own interests – children discover the world and start to become someone… Friends part, they have to develop without each other and find back together after years, and so do families (hopefully!).
It is sad for someone who isn’t ready to let go, but life doesn’t care.
There are long nights and long summers – you never know :o)
cos alpha,
Someone at KL had to talk to Grey Worm , who was the only person left to speak for Dany’s forces.
I sure thought Grey Worm acquiesced to the King or Queen argument awfully fast , no questions or objections , like ‘O! OK!….
I thought on this. And I thought: these are no real Crows. These are Crows only for Greyworm. Bran was smart enough to think about.
Boojam,
May be, Greyworm at least found back to his better self?
His rage was over, Missandei wouldn’t come back, Westeros is done for him. What shall a commander of forces do, after his supreme commander is gone and hasn’t left commands?
It’s the first time, Greyworm is really free to decide, where his path shall lead to.
cos alpha,
The Crows were fake?
There is no Nights Watch?
Could be, we don’t explicitly know.
Do we?
cos alpha,
Agree, I meant more what viewers want most of the time with a show, that it ends all happy with friends and family sticking together. That’s what bittersweet is about this ending, it shows us the mirror of real life as you depicted, something most want to avoid and acknowledge when we watch a movie or TV show.
the characters won’t be happy if they stick to that “how every story needs to end” ending. they will be unhappy. Jon being forced to be reminded every single time about his past when he will be with his family. Arya sad for not having a “story to tell about her adventures” at the end of her life. Bran for not being productive. Sansa will be in fact happier if her siblings are there I guess. Sam needs to be able to feel contributed with his knowledge etc.
Just like with LotR the friendship of the movies ended and made place for new families to be started.
And it’s like the ending of six feet under which show us viewers even more the hard truth about life.
Emily,
Lol. Actually, it’s not so far fetched when you remember this is fantasy and how ith this ending much has to be filled in by our limitless imaginations now. 🙂
Boojam,
I wondered if all the lords/ladies being there was because Varys sent out all those scrolls before his death?
Boojam,
I hope Jon’s escape isn’t temporary – if it is, then it’s a disservice to his character given Tyrion and Arya pretty much convinced him to put an end to Dany, who was really his only link to his father and whom he loved. Jon was killed by his own men at CB so that would be cruel and unjust to send him there. Castle Black also borders Sansa’s lands now – so why would the other kingdoms send criminals there? The place was already failing because so few men were being sent there.
No I expect they knew he’d go North to be with Tormund, in fact he wasn’t surprised to see him so he likely got a bird telling him to wait for Jon. Jon is a broken man and he saved the realm – I honestly don’t want to believe they’d make him pay for his actions by sending him back to a place where he may be murdered again in the future by a bunch of criminals. The speech he got about fathering no children was likely just Tyrion’s way of saying the Targaryen dynasty had to end. Sansa, Tyrion and Arya all got a good ending because Jon made all the sacrifices so they could. They owe him that much.
Wow, I can’t believe it is finally over.
It’s been almost two days and I still feel like I’m processing things. I have to say that it has been one hell of a ride like with no other show for me. No other show has been able to keep me thinking for as long after each episode ended, and no other show has been able to show me so many more details I missed the first time I watched it, and show new ones almost every time I watch it again.
I have to say that I was prepared for a really tragic red wedding type of ending but even though it did have tragic or sad beats, overall it felt very satisfying and hopeful for the future.
In addition to the cinematography which was gorgeous, and the endings for each character, I loved that the episode was full of call backs to situations/scenes that happened in previous seasons.
Jon arguing with GW for the life of the prisoners was a mirror image of Dany arguing with Drogo’s blood riders to spare some slaves.
Dany’s speech to the Dothraki was mostly lifted from Drogo’s speech to her (although she left out the really ugly bits).
Tyrion trying to convince Jon to stop Dany, Jon’s reluctance and trouble considering it, and eventually going through with it, is very similar to the talk Ygritte had with the wilding warg trying to convince her to turn on Jon, her struggle considering it, and eventually her emotions putting a few arrows in him, although contrary to Jon with Dany she couldn’t bring herself to kill him.
The speech Tyrion uses to propose Bran as king was a variation of Tywin’s speech to Tommen about what makes a good king.
Tyrion being left out of the history book was a reminder of Vary’s words to Tyrion back in season three.
Jon’s shaggy look after being freed seemed like the same look he had back in season 1, and contrary to the more regal man-bun he’d been wearing since he was brought back to life and during his stint as king in the North.
And of course the final scenes with the gate opening and closing was like a redo of the first scene in the series.
Meraxes,
yeah we were talking about that else thread….Except I don’t see Bran as a messianic leader…..
That’s EXACTLY what I said to my husband the next morning- They stuck the landing .
For the last few minutes of the Starks starting their new lives , my eternal thanks to cast and crew. Perfection.
Yes, I had quibbles and the occasional WTF. But I knew going in they were NEVER going to please everybody.
It’s been a hell of a ride. Hail and Farewell.
Grey Worm is the story narrative pivot point at that juncture.
There is absolutely no one else, unless Daario Naharis had of shown up , which would have been interesting!
Does this make Daario king of Meereen now?
In a way, I envy those who managed to enjoy the final episode – or the entire season for that matter. At the same time, I cannot help but – yes, this will offend some of you – question the intellectual aptitude of such individuals. Such harsh words would need to be substantiated with actual arguments and analysis, but I am at this point too disappointed to write lengthy texts on the matter. I found the ending to be vacuous, incoherent, illogical, cheesy, rushed, contrived and in contradiction not only with the rules and psychological profiles that the series established originally (that line has been breached long ago), but even with the premises established within the last couple of episodes. Just try to reflect on the whole chain of events after Daenerys’ assassination and how the power dynamics played out: what would one expect to be a plausible course of events vs what the writers delivered. And it’s not just the facts constituting the conclusion that were problematic, but predominantly how these facts were materialized. It was beyond cartoonish, as was the dialogue. The way a great character like Tyrion was butchered and dumbed down is just saddening.
Unacceptable, disrespectful, and in very bad taste, as one grey sunken cunt would have put it. Alas.
Raenarys,
Theon was…. ahem… safe.
KingWatermelon,
Art has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. Art is completely subjective and people should be able to express their opinions freely without risk of being insulted. What you are doing is the equivalent of calling someone’s intelligence into question for liking the color red. I loved the finale and the entire season. It’s my third favorite, after seasons 4 and 6. That’s not to say that it’s perfect, but there has never been a perfect show in the history of television.
The heavy door opens with a creaking sound and a lone figure steps into the light of the day. He closes his eyes and inhales fresh air with a smile on his face. He feels at peace… probably the most in a while. In his hands, he clutches his treasured tome, the tome that was kept in dark room beneath the manor in the past 8 years for only his eyes to see… and a couple others as well.
Clutching the tome, Lord Parramandas knows that last three chapters never saw light of the day. He remembers days when filling those empty pages was his priority
.. so the privileged people could follow his journey. But now he’s content that the last three chapters will never be seen by anyone’s eyes but his. Sometimes, the treasure has the most significance when it remains a secret. And this is what is hidden among these pages… a secret.
Lord Parramandas throws his last look at his crumbling manor. The day has come when he needs to say goodbye to it… say goodbye to the sacred place where he spent creating his legacy. He inserts the key into the lock… a heavy sound follows and the door is sealed shut. Lord Parramandas steps to nearby pond, removing his badge and his ornate cloak. He wraps it around the key, ready to drop it into the water… but he never releases the grip. Why? Didn’t he swore he’ll get rid of it? Get rid of Lord Parramandas’s persona after the journey is ended? But he stares into the sigli.. the white elephant on green field, stroke with gold. Memories flash through his head… from the 15 year old who embarked on a journey 8 years ago, to enthusiastic and twisty journey that followed… to finally appearing at gathering 4 years ago and taking the lord’s mantle and applying the coat of arms, to drums pounding and the banner flying atop the tallest tower while privileged eyes had opportunity to read writings in his tome… and finally to him, now a mature person, sitting in darkness and writing the final chapters in light of a single candle. Why would he get rid of this? Even though he’s known by different name out there, he’s still Lord Parramandas. It’s part of him as a person and it will never go away. He remembers the treasured line “Be fully yourself”… and backs away from the pond. He puts on his cloak again, clasps the coat of arms badge on his chest. He’s Lord Parramandas and he’ll never stop existing. As for the key, he digs a hole close to the pond and buries the key inside as he never knows when will he need it again.
He keeps walking with the tome under his arm. His thoughts are all over the place but most specifically with this closing chapter… he remembers the warmth that got to his heart, the smile that got drawn to his face, the tears that came into his eyes. It is a moment to remember, a moment nobody will take away from him. He traveled through several worlds but he knows this one will forever remain in his most fond memory and that he’ll most certainly return.
As he’s walking through the forest, a sound of people talking is heard. He strays from the path and reaches the clearing down the slope. Many people are gathered there and he knows who they are. Not long ago, he would be there too, talking enthusiastically. He spots Oz, the man who called the gathering. He spots Dee, always this happy and enthusiastic person. He spots many others… all people he has in fond memory. He may not remember all the names but he knows them. One side of him wishes to descend there, to spend this final time with them. But his heart is telling him that that time is over. So for a while, he just stands there and observes them from the top of a slope. In one moment, several people turn their heads towards him… people he fondly remembers. He makes eye contact with every one of them. A faint smile appears on his face, a gentle tear strolls down his face. He looks into the eyes of them and gives them the last affirmative nod. Then he turns around and calmly walks away.
Lord Parramandas completed his journey but he knows the main journey is still well ahead of him. Life awaits him, many challenges and obstacles to beat, many new journeys through worlds. And there is his love awaiting him… his special person who didn’t embark on this journey yet. Who knows… maybe he’ll soon return to this place with her by his side. Options are endless but Lord Parramandas knows a bright future is ahead of him, additionally brightened by the 73 chapters of past 8 years.
Clutching the tome, Lord Parramandas walks into his life, with future lying ahead.
KingWatermelon,
A
How old are you, 12? Really, just because people have a different opinion from you they must be stupid? We have spent mant days talking about the show, the issues the problems , but ultimately it was satisfying to many intelligent people who would not call you names. But you are too disappointed to back up your words with arguments? I suggest you do not have actual arguments and analysis to begin with. Just go away and be disappointed somewhere else. Let others discuss this like adults.
Don’t worry too much ; I think he can sneak home for birthdays and Thanksgiving if -IF- he wants to. Who’s going to tell on him ? No one cares about his “punishment” except Greyworm, and he is at least a thousand miles away.
PS If there are no Night’s Watch left , who closed the gates behind the Free Folk ?
KingWatermelon,
Explain to me. Your highly intelligent being, how should the daenerys assassination should have gone to make more sense? Show us the true power of intelligence.
All jokes aside. I think many can agree that the way to the ending could have been better. There’s no mistake at that in my mind. But the ending itself make a lot of sense that this is where George is going. And as a intelligent man that George is I think the ending will be very intelligent in the books. (sorry can’t resist) but don’t forget that D&D were on a very tight shedule to make those scripts. They have worked years and years without having the luxury of vacation. What they brough in the scripts is very amazing if you considering the amount of time they had to actually making the scripts with thinking about everything that went before. So yes mistakes can be made the longer the show airs especially with that schedule.
What D&D signed up for is converting the story George told in his books to the screen and change it for the better on screen. Season 4 is proof of that that they can do wonders with self made scenes with the basic of the story the same as the books. They know how to make a good story. They invented great scenes like the cersei robert scene in season 1. They even added scenes in the episode George’s wrote for the show. Yes that amazing sandor bronn scene in blackwater was all D&D. Adopting like this can be done better with a tigh schedule.
Then season 6 came and they only got some plotlines from the books. They needed to invent themselves. And as winds of winter showed us they are up for that task. They can do that great once there are multiple characters changing themselves. But still it’s difficult for them with the timeframe.
Then season 7 happened which made a big problem. Only 2 big storylines remained. Which both needed to be important. And some small that only were there for those 2 big ones. The scenes needed to be longer, more focus on those storylines. The problem that arose here is that the shifting of storylines that they could do in the past is no longer possible here. The focus is tighter. The scenes that are written for episode 1 need to be in that episode and can’t move to 2. Every episode needs a cliffhanger and with less storylines that is also more difficult. So they couldn’t drag it to much with more episodes if they wanted a cliff every episode which we gotten used to. Even filler scenes would be attack more in the end of a story like every story that is ever told. Also something that was difficult for them.
Another problem that occurs is that that in earlier seasons you can just prospone difficult parts of a storyline to the next season. And to the next. That happened a lot in the beginning. Like for instance having Jaime return at the end of season 3 made a problem for season 4. But it was needed to close season 3 in a good way for Jaime. Now we are here season 8 and those leftovers are waiting there. And the big problem arises. How to make this the best season and addressing those leftovers. Difficult decisions to be made. Add them and lower the episode quality. Or exclude them but having the problem that the season itself will fell flat on its back. What happen is that I think too many leftovers were there and they could only implent half of them. And they choose only to go with what was needed for the big storyline.
Same thing happen with lost. Many mysteries were left unanswered but I know one thing, including all of them wouldnt have made the last season better of lost, it would only have felt that every episode was about some test where those questions were answered.
What could have helped was if the books were done, and they had a template how to end every storyline perfect and move to that point with little changes that were needed for the show. It still grrm story that grrm had in its mind. D&D only change that story to TV medium. And with all those angry fanboys who think they could impove the show. Yes they would have probably fixed some problems that arised in the show. But would have fall flat on their asses with some other parts that D&D done right. The only way this story could have ended in perfection like the story started if the books were done on time,but they weren’t.
KingWatermelon,
And to add. (I written it in another post). Even the angry ones (you’re not one of them if I see your comment written without angry emotion and comments) are acting very unintelligent. Many of them stated mistakes in the show but they failed to comprehend the basics of the story. Confusing wight and white walkers. I read that some wanted Arya on the throne meaning they don’t understand her character at all and it would have been a hell for her. (would be amazing if we got a comical sequel). They missed some small details that they implemented on screen. They fixed on mistakes that even the best movies have. And they change their opinion with the season. First it was season 1 till 4 good. Then 1 to 6.then 1 to 7. The always hate the last seasoned aired.
Another thing they hate alot is what happened on screen. And that’s all subjective. You can’t say that’s bad because bran is king. It could be someones opinion that that’s not what they want. What I think is constructive criticism if you state that the how it happened could have been better. Because then people can talk about that.
But the most angry fanboys talk about the what instead of the how.
And need to add something about the books. What make lotr such a great movie is that Jackson didn’t write the movie straight forward with the first book first and then the second and last third. What he did was wrote it from both sides. He knew what the ending would be because the books were done and he could tie in every scene of the whole saga till it make sense for the end. Got didn’t have that luxury and needed to work per season.
Lord Parramandas,
And there he is again. Welcome back. Nice read. It was a journey wasn’t it. Another show add to the endless circle of re-watch shows with lost. Strange feeling that it’s over once we said what we want to say about the final.
Now a new rewatch can happen with a strange new way at looking at the show. We know the ending. We will see thinks we never saw before. I will do that rewatch after my lost rewatch next month.
Who else cried when brienne filled in Jaime’s pages in the white book. History will remember him as a hero. He deserves it. Oh I lied I didn’t cry. It was an outburst of water flowing down my cheeks.
Roheryn,
Looking at that CB scene again there are more than two crows, a couple are opening the front gates.
Also when Jon walks through CB towards the Wall Gate one sees maybe 6 or 7 more Crows.
So , for some reason, there is a Nights Watch in place.
They gotta keep watch for grumpkins and snarks, yes?
I LOVE that you remembered this. Yes in the books and show Tyrion reflected on how intelligent the Dragons were. Thank you buddy!
LL of Darkwater,
LOL Absolutely !
Oh god.. I cried buckets in that scene! That, and when Arya says goodbye to Jon on the pier. Those two scenes bring out the waterworks a-plentiful. Just thinking about them now..
Hmm the fandom’s getting really toxic out there and it makes me really sad. It’s good to have a safe corner in the internet, here at the Watchers!
While I’ve had problems too with the last season, in overall I found it very good and enjoyable. Could some things have been explained better? Yes. Did I want more dialogue for Jon? Of course I did! But Kit did such an excellent job in his non-verbal acting and communication of his feelings, that in the end it’s OK. Yes, I think the last season needed 80 more minutes to build up the various points that reach the conclusion. But that said, they did an excellent job.
Most people argue about things that have been set up and foreshadowed from the start.
For instance, if someone hadn’t noticed Dany’s potential to snap and the possibility of her snapping if she loses the people who repeatedly stopped her from snapping, then they weren’t paying any attention. We knew she could be relentless and both in the last season and this one, there were hints that getting the throne was her first priority, and she was becoming more and more fixed upon it. And she got drunk by her own power. And when she got it, it wasn’t enough: we knew it wouldn’t be enough! That doesn’t make her Mad, nor a villain. And that’s the tragedy about it. We loved her, and we believed in her vision; we saw her potential for doing good. But we also saw her potential for the opposite. We wanted to believe that she would master her impulses and become the best version of herself. But Dany was human. And humans make mistakes, and dissapoint; they get drunk by their own sense of power. They see things subjectively. We all have a dark side. Dany did too and she chose to give in to that: it was her own choice and it was tragic. But that road was foreshadowed even from the start, and the dilemma about which road she would choose in the end. And of course Dany’s vision, was the only vision – except Bran’s – we saw in the show, and I knew it had to be fullfilled: she’d never sit on the throne and we knew it!
Now about Bran. The very fact that everyone was wondering what was his role is, if it wasn’t connected with the NK, is in itself a proof that his destiny for something important was foreshadowed, but we were misled into believing that it had to do strictly with the NK. And it wasn’t as we saw in ep3. But we still knew he was meant to do something important. Well, he was meant to become king – not the new NK as some predicted, but the King of westeros. Looking back,it does make sense.
Lastly on Jon; those who have seen my posts know I’m a huge Jon fan! I wasn’t pleased with particular things in the season, and mainly the fact that he wasn’t given much dialogue and that he wasn’t his usual self, but rather more passive.
And as a human being, I hoped that he wouldn’t be the one to kill Dany, because that would hurt him deeply, given his history with Ygritte and all the hardships he’s been through.
But I knew who Jon is: he’s a man of honor and duty. He’s the guy that protecting the realms of Men is not just something one says, but something he believes and lives by. And even if he had to kill his love to protect the world, he would do it, as he did. I also knew that he would try to the last minute to avoid it, but Dany left him no option.
It was heartbreaking; but it was true to his arc.
Again, everyone was wondering – including me- what is the purpose of Jon’s arc, why was he ressurected, if it wasn’t to kill the NK. I then thought it might have to do with his true identity and that he would become king. BUT as soon as Dany burned the innocents in KL, I automatically knew that someone would stop Dany from taking the throne and it would likely be Jon, since he was the only one able to get close to her. And knowing who Jon is, I also knew that he wouldn’t accept the throne even if it was offered to him, because that would be betraying his word to Dany:’ I don’t want the throne’, ‘you’ll always be my Queen’.
Perhaps they could have handled better the aftermath of Dany’s death – to show us that the Unsullied imprisoned Jon instead of killing him to use him as leverage for instance, being surrounded by Northern forces. Not to mention that Drogon didn’t kill Jon in the first place and that in itself may had played a role in GW’s decision. So, perhaps things would have worked better if they gave a few more scenes on setting these things up.
And despite the fact I thought I WANTED Jon on the throne, it felt natural that they send him to the wall; I was happy about it in the end. I was happy he could finally get rid of the Southern politics and games, and just be with people who trully appreciate him and everything he’s done for them and who treat him accordingly. And I can freely tinfoil about his adventures beyond the wall, and dream of a happy ending for him 🙂
So, the verdict: despite the minor plot holes and flaws, they did deliver a good ending that was true to the arcs of the characters, even if getting from A to B wasn’t done in the perfect way.
A big thank you to everyone here at the Watchers, for giving us a place to communicate and tinfoil.
I will keep visiting here, supporting any way I can and following the news for the prequel, which I’m very excited about! 🙂
ygritte,
You’re an exception to having worked at the same company for more than 10 years. Most people now don’t do it anymore. And people now don’t watch the same shows for more than 10 years. That’s why most shows end after 6 or 7 seasons.
And for people like Sophie Turner, now is the right time to take other movie roles as much as possible. She’s now at the height of her success and at the height of her beauty. She now has to show she can also play other roles besides Sansa. She won’t get that many chances anymore when she’s a few years older. That’s different for the older actors who already have a career behind them and who are glad to still have some work.
My post can’t be send, strange. So I post it in multiple parts.
Reaction to queen of nothing:
Queen of Nothing,
And else he is the stupidest Dragon ever lived, CSI drogon. pointy thingy in mommy, Jon crying, ey chair big pointy thingies. Bad chair.
But if you watch the scene closely you see Drogon understand it. He first was angry at Jon, he know Jon had done it, he wanted to fry him, you saw him open his beak to Jon first. Then he saw Jon crying and he understand what had happened. I think that is a combination of the bond of Dragon and his rider, I think Drogon felt what Dany felt and how her mood changed in the past seasons. He knew how his mother had changed and he knew why. That chair needed to go.
Enharmony1625,
Enharmony1625,
And Sansa Jon moment. She changed a lot haven’t she. From disliking her bastard brother to loving him. I think Sansa made a hard choice there also, asking her siblings to stay with her, or going the hard route for herself. Letting them go to be happy.
Ghostgirl,
That’s exactly how I saw it 🙂 I love it
Wow, this is extremely rude and unnecessary, considering I enjoyed the season and the finale very much
Well it seems we have a low IQ then. Nothing to worry you’re not alone Dee, I’m in that group too.
kevin1989,
I guess so
This may offend you, but I cannot help to question your intellectual aptitude for not understanding the ending.
People like what they like. Get over yourself.
Ghostgirl,
Dee Stark,
Jon in season 2: My father always said I’m of the North.
Tormun to Jon season 7: You spend too much time with the Free Folk, now you don’t like kneeling.
Perfect end for his character.
I was an avid fan of the novels before the show came out…and truth be told, was terrified at the prospect of seeing my favorite characters on the small screen. (if you ever watched ‘The Sword of Truth’ series you’ll understand)
BUT…the realization of those characters was so phenomenal…so apt, that I was amazed and appreciative! Yes, some of the plot lines from the novels was dropped, some added, some characters in some out, but what they did…what they did was make it so that I didn’t care!! Each and every episode was a wonder, all the way up to the last one! I am sad it’s over, sure, but happy I got an ending that I am satisfied with, an ending that kept my favorite characters alive and doing what they were meant to do!
I sympathize with the disappointment some people have, don’t understand it, necessarily, but sympathize. They had other plans and thoughts in their heads, as do we all when watching/reading about beloved characters, but the fact remains, it is what it is! This was the vision presented to us, and who are we to say “Hey, that’s not what I envisioned!” with any real expectation? We enjoyed the ride and if there were a few bumps in it, well you just buckle up and hope to get there in one piece!
Anyway, in my opinion, the series was masterfully done and I am just so damn grateful that I got to see it come to fruition!
Solar,
Thank you for listing all these. I’d thought of some, but not all, of them. 😃🐺
Thank you Oz for your wonderful recaps and insights. I love your restaurant analogy. Spot on.
The Wolves of Winter,
yes <3 <3
I love the ending he got, its perfect <3
For those of you insulted by my comment (questioning the intelligence of people etc.) – suffice it to say that I’m aware that there are plenty of normally intelligent people who liked the ending, and plenty of belligerent hard-to-tolerate half-literate critiques. It’s just a matter of, to me, finding it very hard to believe how some people are not bothered by the apparent inconsistencies – it’s the problem of pattern recognition. It’s not the same as calling someone out for liking the color red at all, as someone suggests. It’s about pattern recognition, or rather the lack of consistency in the pattern which is the story.
I hate to be antagonizing and shouldn’t have used the words I did; my reaction out of disappointment was in the line of “how can you not see and care about this obvious issues!!”. Apologies for the harsh words. Still, my impression of the series will forever be tainted by what I perceived as a horribly shallow latter seasons. I hate that to be the case, but I cannot help it.
The Wolves of Winter,
It doesn’t offend me at all. My IQ is in 140s and I worked as a scientist and engineer. I’m not particularly concerned about my intellectual aptitude, though there are still plenty of smarter people than me in the world. Not that such posturing matters in the scope of the debate as indeed I provided no actual arguments or analysis; I’m stating this just to dismiss this particular remark of yours.
It’s not about “getting over yourself”. It’s venting frustration. I truly wish I would’ve liked the ending and the season.
KingWatermelon,
I see you’re one of those posters who call out the show’s “inconsistencies” without actually giving any specific examples. I can say the same about any other show or movie, but without going into detail, my criticism is pointless. GOT does have flaws, to be sure, but so does every single show in history. If liking a flawed show makes us unintelligent, then everyone who watches television is unintelligent.
Oz, thank you for the many years of wonderful, entertaining episode recaps.
Now do yourself a favor, and GO READ THE BOOKS. 🙂
KingWatermelon,
Oh we were not insulted, at least not me, I was just making fun of your comment in a good sense.
And I think many saw those mistakes you talked about, but we decide to look at the good parts of the seasons, and the episodes had many good moments. So why linger on the bad parts instead of looking at the parts that weren’t good. I mean no matter what they did there would always be an aspect that wasn’t right. Especially with the timeframe they needed to work with.
So I admit that there were mistakes in season 8 (but so do all seasons I think season 4 was the one closest to perfection), but I rather look at the good moments we got. and as you can read many had their problems with the final season but choose to love the ending itself.
KingWatermelon,
As you stated you have an high IQ, wouldn’t it be smarter just to not worry about mistakes of a TV show, and just enjoy the parts that were great and good. I mean I think it’s not really intelligent to worry about a TV show and their mistakes. In the past I would probably have been angry the show didn’t get my way but I learned that you should not worry about things you can’t control.
Young Dragon,
I know some that didn’t like the ending but thinking that Avengers is the best thing ever happen to cinematography. I respect their opinion, but for me that’s just a simple movie that couldn’t do anything wrong because there’s no story to begin with, at least not that great of a story. Still if people like it, it’s their opinion and I hope they enjoy the ride. And I wish I could enjoy movies like that, (but probably I’m too intelligent for it XD just kidding)
KingWatermelon,
Sucks for you to be honest, it is just a tv show. Suggestion, don’t ever write in anger or speak in anger, in the end it only reflects badly on you. Pulling the IQ card, boy oh boy. I mean I’m sure many have been tempted to do it in the past but it never ends well.
If I were to sit down and judge every single show or movie for inconsistencies and plot holes, I would conclude that 99% of what is produced out there was illogically conceived. Do I think Season 8 was a great season? No, it had obvious problems. The main one being the pace of it. Was it a complete disaster that invalidates everything that came before it? I find that a ridiculous conclusion. And it grates me to no end because I see it as a reflection of the great affliction of our current society – unearned entitlement and disposition for automatic whinging facilitated by the new platforms of communication which allow truly brave souls in the internet to be as belligerent and unaccountable as possible. Signing a petition for the season to be remade and calling the showrunners insulting names? For goodness sake, the fragility of some people.
this so much. And I said this in another post, negativity speaks louder than positivity, unfortunately.
Exactly my only regret is not seeing him die because he deserved it just as much as Dany, Cersei and Euron.
Young Dragon,
As I said, I didn’t provide any analysis here, nor do I have the tendency to do so for a simple reason that writing a lengthy essay is rarely a fruitful endeavor. The people who read it tend to be the kind who agree with the contents beforehand anyway. It simply requires a time investment that I cannot afford to make. So all I’m doing is exercising my right to vent in the sea of comments that will pretty soon be forgotten anyway.
However: I did write – though briefly and rather superficially – on some problems I have with the show after ~season 5 here, before the final season: https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-writers-defend-season-7-timeskips-yet-promise-naturally-paced-season-8/ You can search for my username; there are several comments. I hope that adds something more constructive, especially because a lot of what’s been written there can be extrapolated to season 8.
kevin1989,
“I mean I think it’s not really intelligent to worry about a TV show and their mistakes.”
It can be perfectly intelligent. TV series can be an art form and can as such enrich life, offer content for reflection and critical thinking, for aesthetic enjoyment, for increasing our understanding of both ourselves and the world around us, etc. It’s why art matters. For reasons I provide elsewhere (see previous comment), the artistic and cultural value of GoT in first seasons was, in my opinion, much higher than later on (though not without problems). First seasons are why I even bothered to follow the show and comment on it. Worrying about a TV show that could’ve been an important addition to the works of art, but ended as – in my opinion – a cartoonish parody of itself is perfectly fine.
Some of the problems with the final season are enumerated quite nicely here:
It helps me to look at GoT as a chess game, where the king sits back and does nothing while everyone else fights to protect him. It makes Brans position a bit easier to accept if you look at it from that perspective. I don’t think he’s evil, but he does have an agenda to help heal the kingdoms. As he apparently has some ability to see the future, I sort of consider him a little like Dr.Strange. He has chosen what he considers the best possible outcome even if it means the deaths of thousands of innocent people. He cannot tell anyone or else it would change the outcome. Try putting yourself in his position what would you do? Mr. Martin will have to tell us what he is thinking someday. Soon I hope.
EaseUp,
I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Aurelius,
How’s “mass murder” for you? And what about “terrorism”? Do they sound better to your ears?
“The systematic killing of a race or a nation by decision”. Alright now?
You don’t get to lecture me about meanings. I’m a historian, I know very well what it means. My nation suffered it, did yours?
The fact remains that she chose to “liberate” them by killing them. It’s explicit in ep.5. Whether you like it or not. The next generations of course would know only her as a ruler. There’s reason behind it. There’s always a reason for tyrants.
AnnOther,
Yeah, my first answer also vanished, lol.
They didn’t do it for pleasing him, but because they feared him. GW was the commander of an occupation force that represented no authority in the meeting, because Daenerys is dead; he represents only the power of weapons. So, Sansa comes down to KL, takes charge of the Northern forces, and threatens with another war if they hurt Jon. The situation is dangerous. For making it more explicit, they’d have to actually point out that Daenerys was not a legitimate ruler, she was a conqueror, an invader. Cersei was the ruler of Westeros. But this wouldn’t fit the ending they had chosen for Jon, would it? Because how is it that you punish the one who killed the invader?
Jon is a complete parallel of Jamie, but for him, killing the invader wouldn’t have the consequenses it had for Jamie.
Succession by primogeniture through the male line was a factor of stability in medieval societies. It’s sth everybody understood. By itself, it wasn’t the succession system that caused the problems of Westeros, but the fact that the Targs had a weapon of mass destruction at their disposal, they had dragons. When they died out, their power withered, because they didn’t have the means to impose their politics. In addition, by keeping procreation within their own line didn’t advance their own integration within Westeros and the westerosi society. They kept themselves away via incest, like they were gods, and believed that they were superior to others and charismatic. This was bound to cause the resentment of the lords. The system was corrupt, but the succession was not the issue.
This is also why the solution offered by the show runners isn’t a sound one. Bran on the throne wouldn’t last for a year, because he’s disabled, and because he can’t procreate (I’ve written elsewhere about it). It would have been better had it been Sansa, because she is able to bear children, but it would be too provocative for Dany fans, so they discarded it, even though in seasons 6-8 Sansa has been set up inside the story itself as Dany’s and Cersei’s foil. There were in-universe three queens for the throne, Cersei, Dany and Sansa.
As for Jon, well, I don’t really care if he suffers. He participated in mass murder, so he might as well go beyond the Wall to contemplate on what he could have done better.
fdr,
I agree, with you. There’s a million ways it could have ended. We don’t get to decide what the ending would be, but we do have the right, as audience, to judge that the way it got there is flawed or even completely nonsensical.
I wanted Jon on the throne, but I don’t get that, and frankly, after participating in the massacre of KL, I think he should be punished. However, it wasn’t even addressed as an issue. He’s not punished for that, but because he killed Daenerys, while in a medieval society this wouldn’t be an issue at all.
You want a particular ending, that’s fine with me; it’s fiction. But make it make sense, damn it! Some more scenes, some more dialog, perhaps an episode more would have closed all the gaps. They had all the money in the world, all the time in the world and the full support of the channel. They destroyed it. I don’t know what else to say.