Writers explain Season 7 timeskips and suggest a more naturally paced Season 8

Wall - Beyond Frozen Lake 7x06 (13) Jon Beric Tormund Sandor White Walkers Wights

Though season seven of Game of Thrones was generally well-received, a much-maligned aspect of it was its quick pacing—or, more specifically, how it was perceived to rely on timeskips more often and more abruptly than any previous season. Now, thanks to Entertainment Weekly, the writers have finally addressed this charge, which they never had before, explaining why they did what they did and how the final season may differ.

These criticisms aren’t new, but they have intensified. Prior seasons, especially early on, used timeskips too, without the passage of time being explicitly noted. For example, all the way back in season one, Catelyn traveled from Winterfell to King’s Landing between scenes, just like she did between chapters in A Game of Thrones. On the way back, we saw the journey in both mediums…because she met and apprehended Tyrion, so there was a story to tell. For most of season seven, I would argue there simply wasn’t a story to tell, whether it was Jon traveling to Dragonstone or to and from Eastwatch.

The infamous exception was in Beyond the Wall, when Gendry and a raven were quick enough to warn Daenerys that the wight hunters had been surrounded by the dead beyond the Wall, and by the time she arrived the party remained trapped in the same stand-off, with no explicit passage of time. This wasn’t an issue of pacing preferences anymore but of logic, or at least of clear storytelling. If we were supposed to believe the hunting party had survived in that island for a few days, it certainly wasn’t clear.

Gendry Beyond the Wall 706

Though the writers still don’t address that particular occurrence, during EW‘s season eight visit they did explain why they chose to pace the season that way:

“We made a choice to ‘just get on with it’ last season,” co-executive producer and writer Bryan Cogman told EW. Dave Hill, who joined the writing staff in season five and has written a yearly episode since, agreed: “With all the things we were balancing to set things up for season 8, sometimes we had to speed things up within episodes. We had a lot of time cuts the vast majority of viewers didn’t catch. We could have a [title card] on there saying ‘Three Weeks Later,’ but we did not. Sometimes when moving pieces around you’re going to cheat a little bit,” he admitted.

More interestingly, it appears all that “balancing” they did in season seven to “set things up” for the future will result in a more naturally paced season eight: according to Hill, this time they “tried to keep more of the time logic rather than jet packs,” which I’m sure will please those who are bothered by timeskips, whether they seem plausible or not.

As always, for the whole story read the original interview at Entertainment Weekly.

266 responses

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    1. “We made a choice to ‘just get on with it’ last season”

      “With all the things we were balancing to set things up for season 8, sometimes we had to speed things up within episodes

      That’s bizarre. If you feel like you’re balancing too much then why have the shortened season in the first place? Eh, I digress.

      Nice to hear that pacing shouldn’t be an issue now that the chess pieces are where they need to be for the final act.

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    2. Let me translate:

      “Man, we were so tired so we just tossed in every contrived plot point possible in one episode so we could get to the season we were kind of actually excited about!”

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    3. It is somewhat bizarre when rewatching seasons 1-6 and then the maelstrom of pace that was season 7. Personally, I can appreciate the ease with which they told the story in the early seasons as it meant more character driven plotline. Season 7 was just different; more frenetic, action based, and I enjoyed that as well.

      I guess I hope this season is a balance of the two, but in all honestly I’m grateful for what we have been given thus far and look forward to the end of this journey.

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    4. Outside of Beyond The Wall I didn’t even really think it was that much of a problem? You could argue that they should’ve done more to indicate when a substantial amount of time had progressed between scenes (especially in BTW) but for the most part it felt kind of uh as if people were being purposefully obtuse.

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    5. Jet packs never bothered me all that much in the show. I don’t need to see random scenes of characters riding on roads or ships at sea. It’s okay to trust that your audience is smart enough to fill in the gaps. That said, Beyond the Wall was stretching it a bit. Probably should have at least made it clear multiple days had passed to allow time for raven and dragons to travel thousands of miles. This is good news and will give literalists less (fewer? *Stannis*) things to complain about.

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    6. Vigilist: for the most part it felt kind of uh as if people were being purposefully obtuse.

      Honestly, I agree. They should’ve had any of the seven wight hunters trapped in that island point out they had been there for AT LEAST a day or two, but otherwise, I see no problem with timeskips not being explicitly noted.

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    7. Chuck:
      Luka, will watchers on the wall continue to exist through the upcoming GOT prequel series?

      Sure. We’re reporting on the prequel already, after all. We’ll exist through the coming books too, unless all of us suffer simultaneous fatal accidents.

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    8. In the earlier seasons, with more stories and locations in the mix it was easier for the viewer to assume the passage of time. If you wanted to send a raven from Castle Balck to King’s Landing then you could have any number of intervening scenes at Dragonstone/Meereen/Braavos/Winterfell/Dorne/Pyke or wherever then have a scene in KL where the raven has arrived. Even though we aren’t necessarily seeing events in a strict linear time flow, we just assume that some time has passed. This was always going to be harder when the number of locations and stories became fewer and fewer without clumsily adopting the “3 days later” caption.

      It’s even possible that GRRM will face the same issue although it’s easier to convey in book form, especially when he tells us explicitly that we should not assume that one chapter does not necessarily take place straight after the previous and may even have happened before that.\

      It could have been handled rather better in the show though in S7, to be sure. There’s always the Arya training montage option after all… 😉

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    9. Ser Not Appearing in this Series: If you wanted to send a raven from Castle Balck to King’s Landing then you could have any number of intervening scenes at Dragonstone/Meereen/Braavos/Winterfell/Dorne/Pyke or wherever then have a scene in KL where the raven has arrived.

      Except they often didn’t have those intervening scenes. Raven scenes in particular were and are often used as timeskips; one scene shows the raven being sent (or the setup for it, anyway) and the next shows it arriving and/or being read by the recipient.

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    10. Its weird because this season had some of my absolute favourite episodes in the series :2,4,7 and, especially episode 3, and one that I really disliked: the infamous episode 6, although I have to admit that both, the acting department and the technical one were exquisite, but there were lots of big plot holes.

      I feel like the build up was well done (episodes 1 – 5) but then, the climax was rather disappointing. Which is the contrary of what happened back in season 6, we had some good episodes, some decent and some not so decent episodes but the climax (episodes 9 and 10) were the best episodes ever made in TV which made us forget our disappointment with episode 8.

      To sum up, yes, there are some issues with the plot but I still ADORE the show and when the trailer came out I cried and screamed, no show EVER has ever done that to me, and thats all thanks to D&D´s Titanic effort, a massive task that they have carried out with lots of dignity and respect, I truly admire them.

      And you know, without them I would have never been introduced to the world of Ice and Fire and this great comunity that i am so glad to say I am a part of.

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    11. I had that feeling, yes. Season 7 was about Jon and Dany. Everything else was speeded up.
      But on a defining moment like the one in “Beyond the Wall”, you bring 3 pieces of “F16 Raptors” and you land… and of course get exposed, before you clean things up? The things you do for love… It’s so stupid! That was so stupid!

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    12. Luka Nieto,

      Well I said”you could”! There were far fewer complaints in the earlier seasons when a raven flew halfway across the continent seemingly instantly, so it all comes down to perception. Perhaps we also had some intervening scenes cut from the script too for pacing with the results of making events seem too instantaneous.

      It was a bit jarring at times in S7, but like S5 it was mostly about the need to reset the pieces on the chessboard.

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    13. “We don’t read a lot of that stuff,” showrunner Dan Weiss said. “If somebody says, ‘I don’t like the way you do this,’ I have no idea what percentage of the people watching that opinion actually represents. If that opinion happens to surface louder on the internet, I still have no idea — it could be 1 percent of people that becomes an internet thing for 10 minutes and then it just seems like it’s more than 1 percent. But there’s no way of telling — nor am I interested in finding a way of finding out — how accurate those thoughts represent the broad spectrum of people watching. If you start thinking about that you’ll drive yourself crazy.”

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    14. They could have put in a 45-60 second scene of Drogon getting “Targaryen spidey sense” that Jon was in trouble, rousing Dany, then the two of them fly off to save the day without all the running/raven nonsense.

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    15. mau: I like what DB Weiss said, but you didn’t include that part from EW.

      Weiss didn’t really address the issue. He just talked about why he doesn’t pay attention to criticism, which is fair, but not on topic.

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    16. The most pestering problem I have with Season Seven is not really pacing, but balance. Episode One was a boring crawl with nothing happening to prepare the viewer and set the tone for the fast paced episodes which followed. This is a fault of construction from a storytelling point of view, and in fact, made the highlight-styled pace of the rest of the episodes seem annoyingly jarring if not downright silly. The show betrayed its own standards in this regard. Any criticism is fully justified.

      Thank Goodness they’re claiming to have addressed and hopefully corrected this error in Season Eight.

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    17. The writers are incompetent, period. They had absolutely no idea how to write the show after the book material ran out. The season 7 was fanfic level bad; and I expect no better this season as well. Everyone is so hyped for season 8, I may be the only one thats worried about the story…. Oh yes, it will have “spectacular” battle scenes; the longest – and the darkest – battle ever filmed, blah blah. I will be happy if I can even see what the hell is going on in the battles in that “stylistic” pitch black – watching the trailer alone required to fully crank up my monitor brightness.

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    18. I don’t know what they intended, but it seemed that the wight hunters were trapped overnight. I thought they began the journey at sun up, got trapped close to dusk and Gendry ran like the wind and made it back to the wall after dark. The raven flew all that night and arrived at Dragonstone at sun up, Dany leaves immediately and arrives around dusk the same day. So the whole thing could have taken close to two days and one night?

      I tried to spot the position of the sun in the sky, but it wasn’t easy to see. From the lighting, it looked like they set out on the wight hunt at sunrise. It makes sense that they’d avoid being out there after dark, but they had a sled with them with supplies that I suppose had camping equipment. I’m also pretty sure that Gendry got to the wall after dark.

      So, I guess it kinda’ worked for me.

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    19. Anon,

      Oh, it CAN make sense. There’s nothing that explicitly contradicts them spending the night there, for example. I just wish they had made it clearer.

      Rizwan,

      I don’t use the “don’t watch the show, then” retort often, because it circumvents the issues raised against it, but when someone is so angry and disappointed… for your own good and that of everyone else you share your reactions with, just don’t watch the show. You’ll be happier, seriously.

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    20. I just rewatched Season 7 and to be honest none of the time jumps really even stand out besides Episode 6.

      I think the problem is that people come online and complain about it, people start reading these complaints and then you then convince yourself its a problem. Last year I remember coming to this site and reading everyones reactions and after doing so they almost turned into my reactions, though I had never thought about them in the first place.

      Maybe i’m a more toned down viewer, not looking for every little detail to nitpick like some do, but I really believe that once you start surrounding yourself with negativity it will infect you at some point.

      This isn’t to say that anyones opinions are wrong, or that there aren’t time jump issues, but if people took what they see at face value they may just enjoy the show a bit more.

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    21. I happened to have just watched Beyond the Wall earlier today. I have been rewatching an episode every 5 days to get me to April and I’m almost there!!.

      That raven was one of those super ravens too. Jon did say that Gendry was the fastest runner!! My main problem wasn’t just the running. It’s how he found his way back to eastwatch so easily. I don’t think he would just see the wall for quite some time and it’s not like he was a skilled tracker and there are things like food, water, zombie polar bears, blizzards. . He never left the big city. He was a city boy so saying this was a stretch is an understatement. Honestly they should have just used Bran to see what was happening and send the raven. That being said I really enjoyed season 7 so much more this time around. The banter during beyond the wall almost made up for the super raven and the rest. I also really enjoyed arya and Sansa a lot more this time around. Maisie was really creepy when Sansa discovered her faces and she still let her live by flipping the dagger back to her. I almost thought she was really the waif and the waif did trade places. Anyway I agree about some huge story holes but I still really enjoyed the episode. I enjoyed it even more after watching the behind the scenes.

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    22. It never bothered me before BTW. Typically, even if we didn’t see travel time, time passing was still hinted at or conveyed in another way (with some minor exceptions).

      However, in BTW, it bothered me not so much that they “cheated” time, but that within seconds I could think of simple ways to have made it less jarring, so why couldn’t they when they were writing it? Yes, maybe it’s easier to think of after seeing it rather than when coming up with it, but it’s also not my job (though I’m available if anyone is hiring :D).

      I have some detailed changes to the episode (and season), but I’ll convey my simplest points here.

      1. Bran could have sent a message to Dragonstone way earlier. We could’ve kept Gendry with the group that way, and Dany could’ve been on her way before they were even in trouble (cause Bran saw the trouble in the future–perhaps he even tried sending a message to Jon, but he was gone and Dany got it instead, so she left to save them). Plus, Bran really needed more to do with his “I see everything” powers. Like, if he doesn’t know half this stuff is going on, who is he actually watching, and why?
      2. Dany could’ve traveled to Eastwatch with the dragons and stayed there while the group went BTW. So the only large chunk of travel time would have been Gendry’s run, instead of that, plus a raven flying the entire length of Westeros, and then three dragons flying all the way back. Maybe there would’ve been a strain of logic for Dany leaving Dragonstone, but I think less viewers would’ve had a problem with that.

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    23. Tron79: That raven was one of those super ravens too. Jon did say that Gendry was the fastest runner!! My main problem wasn’t just the running. It’s how he found his way back to eastwatch so easily. I don’t think he would just see the wall for quite some time and it’s not like he was a skilled tracker and there are things like food, water, zombie polar bears, blizzards.

      I think the frozen lake is pretty close to the Wall. Closer than Hardhome, which is where we last saw them, and Hardhome is relatively close. Also, on the way to the frozen lake, we see them always walking next to the coastline, so Gendry really couldn’t have been lost, even if he’d tried.

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    24. I actually never really minded the “time cuts” as you can rationalise the process quite easily. For example, Varys and Arya getting to Westeros at the end of Season 6. Obviously, I assumed several months went by and their travels occurred simultaneously as the other major events that season. While I did enjoy S7 overall, my critique was that the story progressed so quickly, the audience was left to figure out too much by omission (not relating to time but to the plot itself), and the writers probably prioritised certain storylines when they could have established and built on others. I would have loved a full 10-episode season where D&D pulled a GRRM and really stretched out some dialogue and storylines, but I do understand that they’re trying to wrap things up efficiently, so, I’ll take what I can get!

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    25. I find that suspension of disbelief spares me a lot of mulling over when watching television. I just didn’t understand the big deal, which is fine.

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    26. What’s harrowing to me is the huge risk they all took. Other than Beric suggesting that they kill the leader to kill the wights, there was no plan ‘b’ on how to escape. They were counting on Gendry making it to the wall without weapons – ’cause the Hound took his hammer. Then they counted on a raven making it to Dragonstone and on Dany coming to their aid… which Tyrion advised her NOT to do, by the way.

      But, Jon Snow is really hard to kill! I get the feeling that if Dany hadn’t come, some benevolent force would have saved Jon, and one or two of the others… which is essentially what happened because it was Benjen who ultimately saved Jon.

      The three things I took away from the whole fiasco is how selfless Jon and Dany are, how hard it is to kill Jon, and how duplicitous Tyrion is.

      I know Tyrion acted as if he was concerned for Dany’s safety, but don’t villains always do that.

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    27. Luka Nieto: Honestly, I agree. They should’ve had any of the seven wight hunters trapped in that island point out they had been there for AT LEAST a day or two, but otherwise, I see no problem with timeskips not being explicitly noted.

      I am interested to see how it feels on rewatch. But I don’t think it’s fair to say that a large portion of the audience is being “obtuse”. Yes I was one of them.
      They basically admitted to cheating a bit, and not keeping time logic. That came across, and we felt it.
      For me, the “fill in the blanks” applied much more easily to previous seasons. This season I had the sense that the writers did not even concern themselves with it, and this interview supports that perception.

      I not bashing them for it. As I said on another thread, they signed on to adapt an epic story for the screen – an incredible challenge in itself. This changed to a different challenge – writing the story themselves, with maybe 3 months? 6? to write each “book”, interspersed with overseeing this massive production to bring it to life according to their vision. I am thrilled at what they have achieved.

      I do wish they had killed two birds with one stone in the BTW “waiting for the rescue” – these guys were trapped for “a few days”, in all likelihood facing death, and they don’t discuss Arya/Sansa? Sam? Etc. I’ll take more bits of dialogue/character interaction, please! with subtle verbal or visual indicators of the passage of time. Ah yes, some would say fan service, and/or you are supposed to assume conversations happen that aren’t on screen. But others would find it enriches the story and character relationships, just as the “filler” dialogue scenes that were created in the first season. For me, many things in the past two seasons go unacknowledged in a way that adds to the jarring feeling.

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    28. I tend to put plot holes, time jumps and the like into 2 categories, depending on when I notice them. If I don’t realize there was an inconsistency until after the show is over and I’m re-running it in my mind, then I’m okay with it – it was done smoothly enough to not break my enjoyment. On the other hand, if I see something obviously wrong during the show, then I’ve got a problem – it takes me out of the fantasy and rudely dumps me back into the Real World. The whole Wight Hunt was grating. It didn’t make sense while I was watching it and doesn’t make sense now. Likewise, Arya’s Braavosi 5K With Stab Wounds.

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    29. Luka Nieto:
      Anon,

      Oh, it CAN make sense. There’s nothing that explicitly contradicts them spending the night there, for example. I just wish they had made it clearer.

      Rizwan,

      I don’t use the “don’t watch the show, then” retort often, because it circumvents the issues raised against it, but when someone is so angry and disappointed… for your own good and that of everyone else you share your reactions with, just don’t watch the show. You’ll be happier, seriously.

      “Don’t watch the show” should never be used as it is rude and vulgar to tell others what they should watch and not watch. Is not this section of the board dedicated to comments? Comments engender myriad views. I don’t like salmon and I do not eat salmon. It would be rude to have someone advise me to not eat at all, although I should definitely and probably go on a small diet, I think.

      Lighten up. If everyone agreed, then the comment section would be useless and besides people watch the show for many reasons. An acquaintance of mine watches it for the excellence of its Medieval costuming and another friend watches not because he cares for the story but instead loves the magnificent score the composer presents.

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    30. Joe:
      I just rewatched Season 7 and to be honest none of the time jumps really even stand out besides Episode 6.

      I think the problem is that people come online and complain about it, people start reading these complaints and then you then convince yourself its a problem. Last year I remember coming to this site and reading everyones reactions and after doing so they almost turned into my reactions, though I had never thought about them in the first place.

      Maybe i’m a more toned down viewer, not looking for every little detail to nitpick like some do, but I really believe that once you start surrounding yourself with negativity it will infect you at some point.

      This isn’t to say that anyones opinions are wrong, or that there aren’t time jump issues, but if people took what they see at face value they may just enjoy the show a bit more.

      You make some good points. This is why I prefer to watch GoT without any social media involved. My experience watching new episodes of GoT almost always tends to be much more positive when it’s just me and my wife. It’s amazing what a difference it makes.

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    31. Sunfyre:
      Jet packs never bothered me all that much in the show. I don’t need to see random scenes of characters riding on roads or ships at sea. It’s okay to trust that your audience is smart enough to fill in the gaps. That said, Beyond the Wall was stretching it a bit. Probably should have at least made it clear multiple days had passed to allow time for raven and dragons to travel thousands of miles. This is good news and will give literalists less (fewer? *Stannis*) things to complain about.

      Yes, it was only the believability factor suspended in the time warp run for help. I mean ‘flying dragons and wight bears, oh fine!’….. but men can’t run that fast. What would it have taken to show them sleeping through the night on their little island?

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    32. Did anyone see where George RR Martin was commenting on the Captain Marvel movie? He said he really enjoyed it but was a little disappointed in the way they changed a certain character from her comic origins in the movie. Then he said a very interesting line. He said, “Maybe that’s just me, though. I’m kind of a purist when it comes to adaptations.” Was that a subtle dig at Game of Thrones? Seeing how the last few seasons D&D haven’t had direct Martin source material off of which to work??? Martin is a sly guy. I definitely think it was a dig at D&D and Game of Thrones.

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    33. Jack Hamm: I don’t like salmon and I do not eat salmon. It would be rude to have someone advise me to not eat at all, although I should definitely and probably go on a small diet, I think.

      If you hate Salmon and someone recommended you to stop eating Salmon I would consider that pretty sound advice. Especially if you were posting on a message board for people who enjoy Salmon.

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    34. Aegon the IceDragon:
      Did anyone see where George RR Martin was commenting on the Captain Marvel movie?He said he really enjoyed it but was a little disappointed in the way they changed a certain character from her comic origins in the movie.Then he said a very interesting line.He said, “Maybe that’s just me, though.I’m kind of a purist when it comes to adaptations.”Was that a subtle dig at Game of Thrones?Seeing how the last few seasons D&D haven’t had direct Martin source material off of which to work???Martin is a sly guy.I definitely think it was a dig at D&D and Game of Thrones.

      No.

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    35. Luka Nieto: Sure. We’re reporting on the prequel already, after all. We’ll exist through the coming books too, unless all of us suffer simultaneous fatal accidents.

      _____
      That’s good to hear. Game of Thrones ends, but the site survives.

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    36. MaxHightower,

      “…what happened back in season 6, we had some good episodes, some decent and some not so decent episodes but the climax (episodes 9 and 10) were the best episodes ever made in TV which made us forget our disappointment with episode 8.”
      __________
      Season 6, episodes 9 and 10: Sapochnik.
      Season 6, episode 8: Mr. Blurry Background.

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    37. Mr Derp: If you hate Salmon and someone recommended you to stop eating Salmon I would consider that pretty sound advice.Especially if you were posting on a message board for people who enjoy Salmon.

      Indeed it might be but I assumed this board to be for people who watch the show, not solely for those who love the show.

      “Watchers on the Wall
      A Game of Thrones Community for Breaking News, Casting, and Commentary”

      I do not see love listed in the title, but I’m failing of sight, sometimes.

      Forgive me if I’m in the wrong place to be real.

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    38. One simple dialoge exchange that would clear up time progression in “Beyond the Wall”:

      Sandor: I’m starving, do we have any food left? Chicken perhaps?
      Beric: No, we packed rations for 3-4 days and they are all gone.
      Sandor: How can a dead fucker like yourself need that much food?
      Beric: Because I’m not dead.
      Sandor: We’ll all be dead soon.

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    39. Rizwan:
      “The writers are incompetent, period. They had absolutely no idea how to write the show after the book material ran out. The season 7 was fanfic level bad; and I expect no better this season as well. Everyone is so hyped for season 8, I may be the only one thats worried about the story…. Oh yes, it will have “spectacular” battle scenes; the longest – and the darkest – battle ever filmed, blah blah. I will be happy if I can even see what the hell is going on in the battles in that “stylistic” pitch black – watching the trailer alone required to fully crank up my monitor brightness.”

      _______
      • Anxiously looking forward to reading your better, non-fanfic version of the scripts!
      • Helpful hint: Watch the show on a decent TV in a dark room, not on a computer monitor.
      Trust me: When lazy, I’d watch episodes in bed on a crappy little 20 year-old TV. It made a world of difference when I’d go into the other room and watch on a newer wide screen, high-def TV.

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    40. Jack Hamm,

      “Founded in July of 2014, Watchers On The Wall is home to a group of experienced writers and fandom contributors who have combined their efforts to create a community for fans of Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire to come together”

      This is a direct quote from the website, so you can stop acting like you or anyone else is being persecuted now.

      Let me be clear. I am all for constructive criticism of the show. I would not want to be around a fandom that cannot admit faults when they are there. However, it’s important to keep in mind that this is a FAN site for Game of Thrones, so if one is going to criticize, it’s appropriate and rather logical to do it without sounding like someone who absolutely hates the show. If someone’s post comes off sounding like they absolutely hate the show and have no respect for those that are writing it then it’s a good idea to ask oneself whether or not it’s worth posting and perhaps anticipate that the responses won’t be all that positive. It’s just common sense.

      And if people should be free to criticize the show then people should also be free to recommend that they stop watching. It goes both ways.

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    41. Mr Derp,

      My experience watching new episodes of GoT almost always tends to be much more positive when it’s just me and my wife.”
      _______
      You’re a lucky man.

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    42. To me the pasage of time was made clear when The Hound throws that big rock and the ice doesn’t break. The ice is also strong enough to hold thousands of wights. So a significant amount of time has passed from the moment Gendry leaves to Dany arriving with her dragons.

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    43. Anon:
      What’s harrowing to me is the huge risk they all took.Other than Beric suggesting that they kill the leader to kill the wights, there was no plan ‘b’ on how to escape.They were counting on Gendry making it to the wall without weapons – ’cause the Hound took his hammer. Then they counted on a raven making it to Dragonstone and on Dany coming to their aid…which Tyrion advised her NOT to do, by the way.

      But, Jon Snow is really hard to kill!I get the feeling that if Dany hadn’t come, some benevolent force would have saved Jon, and one or two of the others… which is essentially what happened because it was Benjen who ultimately saved Jon.

      The three things I took away from the whole fiasco is how selfless Jon and Dany are, how hard it is to kill Jon, and how duplicitous Tyrion is.

      I know Tyrion acted as if he was concerned for Dany’s safety, but don’t villains always do that.

      You wrote about Tyrion. It was interesting re-watching Tryion’s scenes today in this episode. He’s all concerned about legacy. That sounds alot like his father Tywin doesn’t it! He wanted Dany to start thinking about successor’s since baby dragons probably won’t be the ones sitting on the iron throne. As Tyrion said it may take 100 years to make the society that Dany dreams about (or is it the one Tyrion and Verys dreams about). I am not quite sure why Dany kept Tyrion around at the end of season 7 after so many failures. Tyrion is good at the game. Dany and Jon are not. They really don’t think about the game. They both take action and be damned about the consequences.

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    44. Ten Bears,

      Thanks TB 🙂 My wife was actually the one who turned me on to the show to begin with. She started watching from the beginning whereas I started watching during season 2. “Valar Morghulis” was the first episode I ever saw.

      It’s true though. I watched season 7 last year with full knowledge of the spoilers and I also had WOTW open on my laptop during every episode. It just wasn’t nearly as enjoyable. I think the fact that the whole season was leaked ahead of time might have something to do with the overall enjoyment or lack thereof for season 7.

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    45. Jack Hamm,

      You’re in the right place. There’s nothing wrong with being disappointed or critical. However, just complaining that “D&D are incompetent” and write fanfic doesn’t animate a conversation.

      Cite examples. Compare and contrast. “Show me, don’t tell me,” as writing instructors like to say. It also helps to praise those aspects that were done well. A generic gripe that “this show blows” comes off as if you’re just sitting at a keyboard and [to paraphrase Sandor] your fingers are moving and you’re complaining about something: that’s whinging.

      Seriously, your criticisms may be valid. Why not explain what they are and why you feel that way?

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    46. More than often when reading rants, I’m really surprised that I’m able to enjoy the show so completely all way through. Sure, there are some bits that I’m not fond of but among 67 episodes, there’s not one… and literally not one episode that I wouldn’t love and look forward to it on my rewatches. Something I can’t apply to any other show I watched out there. As I said so many times for this particular episode, it’s my favorite from S7 and also my 4th favorite episode among all GoT episode. I was personally really shocked when I saw all the complaints about it as it was nothing less but awesome for me. And when I think of S8, I feel nothing else but hype and joy from my side, certainly not being worried.

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    47. Also, I would agree with whoever wrote it up there that if you don’t love or at least like the show overall, you shouldn’t participate on fansites.

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    48. The teleportation complaints were always unfounded to me. As if people really want to see the menial traversal from one location to another. Sometimes it’s warranted, but many times I can do without that type of progress report.

      I respect that they trust the viewers to be able to make their own conclusions on the passage of time. Out of all the legitimate criticism you could use towards this brilliant show, those few instances of lapses in logic with showing time, are very very minimal and not worth addressing.

      But people will always find something to complain about so I honestly just laugh at the ragers and go about my day.

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    49. Just looked at that scene and you can see the sun low on the horizon at about 3:30. The shadows are long, so it’s early in the morning when they leave for the wight hunt. Later when they’re talking about the Red Witch, the sun is touching the tops of the hills and it looks like late morning…maybe approaching noon?

      When the snowstorm hits, it might be around 1 – 3pm? It’s just a guess because I can’t see any light and it looks like it’s getting dark.. but that might be because of the blizzard.

      Oh, and it was Tormund who took Gendry’s hammer, which was good because then he could run faster.

      Then Gendry sees the wall and it cuts back to the lake and it looks like nighttime and they’re all crossing their arms and looking cold.

      Then cut back to Gendry collapsing at the gate that same night. Then back to the lake where theyre waking up to find Thoros has died during the night. It’s now brighter and is morning and they burn Thoros’ body. Jon says that a raven flies for Dragonstone and Dany is their only chance. Beric pipes up that there is another way by killing the NK. Jon says that Beric doesn’t understand.

      Cut to Dany hurrying to her dragons and there’s mist on the mountaintop as the dragons rouse from their sleep. So, I take it that it’s the same morning as when the hunters are talking about a plan ‘b’. Then cut back to The Hound tossing a rock onto the lake and it’s later in the day. Maybe noon? Maybe later.

      They fight the wigts for a while and here’s something interesting: Did I see one of the wights try to free the captured one??! Why on earth would it do that? Aren’t they mindless creatures that don’t care for each other?

      Anyway Jon yells: Fall back! He makes eye contact with Torumund and Jorah, then suddenly Dany is there! So, she flew like the wind and made it there in the late afternoon?

      When Dany is waiting at the wall for any sign of Jon, there’s light low on the horizon, so it’s sunset.

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    50. Tron79,

      That’s precisely why Dany is keeping Tyrion around. He has been a great player in the Game of Thrones while Daenerys’ history as a monarch is spotty at best. Dany herself has failed many times so I think she could sympathize with Tyrion not having everything together. I do think she was right to check him the few times she did though.

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    51. Mr Derp: If you hate Salmon and someone recommended you to stop eating Salmon I would consider that pretty sound advice.Especially if you were posting on a message board for people who enjoy Salmon.

      And if people should be free to criticize the show then people should also be free to recommend that they stop watching.It goes both ways.

      I disagree with this view, wholeheartedly, but I’m from another era and sometimes wish I could go back there and I’m sure there are others who would like me to do so. To be attacked for expressing contrary or unpopular views seems really intolerant and juvenile and denotes a one dimensional approach to the enjoyment of the show. Alas, this is the essence of the Internet Age where posting unpopular views breed virulent flame wars.

      I’m sure the original poster loves the show, but not to the point of glossing over its shortcomings and faults. Heck, I know people who disparagingly criticize the writings of Shakespeare and the music of Wagner. I do so myself at times. It would never occur to me to recommend they stop reading and listening to these fine masters as most of their critiques have proven valuable in furthering my own appreciation and understanding of these two great artists and does not diminish their worth at all. The same is true for the show.

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    52. Tron79: You wrote about Tyrion. It was interesting re-watching Tryion’s scenes today in this episode. He’s all concerned about legacy. That sounds alot like his father Tywin doesn’t it! He wanted Dany to start thinking about successor’s since baby dragons probably won’t be the ones sitting on the iron throne. As Tyrion said it may take 100 years to make the society that Dany dreams about (or is it the one Tyrion and Verys dreams about). I am not quite sure why Dany kept Tyrion around at the end of season 7 after so many failures. Tyrion is good at the game. Dany and Jon are not. They really don’t think about the game. They both take action and be damned about the consequences.

      Word. I don’t know why Dany didn’t cut Tyrion loose, either. He consistently advises her to abandon her allies. When she wanted to avenge Olenna, he told her not to. When she wanted to save Jon and party, he told her not to. It’s bad policy to abandon allies.

      I think Dany does think of her own interests, but she can be persuaded to risk everything if the circumstances are dire… maybe she’s a pragmatic altruist…if there is such a thing. Jon probably doesn’t think he even has interests because he’s just a no-name bastard, right? In other words, Jon thinks his own interests are other peoples interests.

      And I think you’re right that Tywin has had an influence on Tyrion. He’s thinking dynasty, not democracy. Who knows exactly what Dany is thinking. A clue might be how she included Targaryen in the spokes of the wheel that she intends to break. I wonder if she’ll change her mind when she gets pregnant.

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    53. I just wish they’d spent more time developing the Jon and Dany relationship. To go from holding hands to bonking, not even a chaste kiss good luck when Jon when on his mission. I guess I’m just old fashioned. Benjen ex machina was unforgivable though.

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    54. Jack Hamm,

      I think you’re missing the point entirely. No one is attacking you or anyone else, so I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Who’s attacking you? You said in your last post that you’re being “real”, but you’re actually doing the opposite. You’re making things up that didn’t happen. It’s hard to have a constructive discussion like that.

      What I did say was that this is a FAN website, so there should be a level of understanding who your audience is before commenting. It’s common sense. You or anyone else are more than welcome to start an “I Hate Game of Thrones” website. Anyone who goes there just to say how perfect the show is should be subject to the same criticism. It’s all about understanding your audience. You can dislike Shakespeare, Wagner, or anyone else. However, I’d recommend against doing so on a site that’s specifically dedicated to enjoying their works. Again, it’s common sense.

      I’m not sure why you feel the need to defend someone else anyway. Let them speak for themself, so they can explain why they felt the need to come to a FAN website simply to trash the show.

      There is a big difference between constructive criticism and whinging. Hopefully, you understand that.

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    55. I noticed while watching the battle of ‘Hardhome’ last night, the eyes of the Night King (Yes this is my third complete viewing of the entire series this year) contain the seven pointed star pupils recently shown in the Entertainment Weekly photograph! They are visible when he turns as he is standing on the pier and looking at Jon while raising the dead. You gotta love the show for standing the Christ figure and myth on its head!

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    56. Anon,

      That’s the same impression I had: they left at dawn, got trapped in the afternoon, Gendry made it back to the Wall till dusk, the raven made it to Dragonstone over nigth, and then Dany came in the afternoon. The only problem: there were too many weather changes. But then again: weather can change several times in a day, especially at different heights. So, all in all I had little to no problem regarding that.

      And IMO, Ep 6 was basicly a filler: there were nice charracter moments, and it moved the pieces to certain positions for which we’ve got a full pay-off in Ep 7 but in general all that could have been done in a dozen other and probably better ways. That’s why the episode felt so off: it just wasn’t thought through properly.

      O the other hand, most of the super-hyped high-budget Hollywood movies are way worse in that sense. So, IMO we can live with “Beyond the Wall” as it is. After all, the spectacle was great, Jon & Dany was close to perfection and after all the rewatches I even grew to like Sansa & Arya plot.

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    57. Also, I think book readers may have an unfair advantage regarding the “time jumps”:

      “A Song of Ice and Fire is told through the eyes of characters who are sometimes hundreds or even thousands of miles apart from one another. Some chapters cover a day, some only an hour; others might span a fortnight, a month, half a year. With such a structure, the narrative cannot be strictly sequential; sometimes important things are happening simultaneously, a thousand leagues apart.” – “A Note on Chronology,” A Storm of Swords

      I sort of transferred this knowledge to the show as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

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    58. isildur,

      I agree with you there. It’s funny because Robb and Jeyne’s relationship in the books was a bit superficial in the sense that the relationship was a bit hollow and not really “meaty,” but the show did a great job of actually building that relationship through Talisa, whereas the relationship between Jon and Dany in the show was a bit rushed and while they did share some emotional moments, there was hardly any build-up, but I suspect, or at least hope, there’s more build up in the books.

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    59. I always thought the biggest problem of the season was their plan to go north of the wall was dumb as hell anyway. Yea some of the fast travelling was a bit much, but if everything else was great, itd be easier to ignore

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    60. Ser Not Appearing in this Series,

      We had the amazing samwell cleaning toilet pots that show us time skipped xd

      Rizwan,

      Yikes, the word fanfiction again. I don’t think you know what that word really means.

      And about the complain of season 8 trailer. Yes it is dark (strange if you think about it that they are talking about the long night since season 1. Long night not long day.) blackwater in season 2 was also only a battle in the dark. Why not complain about that?

      Anon,

      Death by infection can take days. The death of thoros is enough to make the audience know days have past. I think like Luka said they just needed one sentence to let us know it was really days. Could even made it funny by letting the hound say it.

      Luka Nieto,

      True. If I dislike a show so much as that comment give us the notion. I would have stopped seasons ago. I’m not watching something I hate.

      Joe,

      +1 that’s how I see it. People just copy others complains.

      Aegon the IceDragon,

      I think Martin sometimes act like a little child with that. He know how TV works. He knows of his adaption will be almost like the source material we would have a 20 seasons TV show. He know that that was never a good option. Things needed to change and be faster in the show. (look at walking dead who want to adapt every single storyline).

      Mr Derp,

      Now I’m hungry for salmon.

      Ten Bears,

      +1 don’t blame the show. Blame the bad monitor. I watch lot of shows and all looks great light or dark scenes. And of course people need to change settings. I see to much people using the default settings and that is never a good option.

      And of course people watching on a phone and complain the details were bad.

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    61. Tron79: Honestly they should have just used Bran to see what was happening and send the raven.

      Jon and Bran haven’t reunited yet. No one in that group of people had any idea what Bran’s capabilities are.

      I haven’t made it all the way through the comments, so my apologies if someone else already pointed this out.

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    62. The Wolves of Winter,

      Good catch.

      Jack Hamm,

      I read that a week ago on a theory side. And the shape is also in Dannys vision of the house of the undying when entering the throne room. It was even shaped like an eye with eyelashes. Would be amazing if that would be true.

      Dark Sister,

      I just finished the books last week and the books are having even more time jumps. I remember some chapters having multiple time jumps. With each period a page long. As long as it is done right it doesn’t matter imo.

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    63. Looper,

      Bran can’t be watching all the time, any more than he can stay in the past for very long—it’ll mess him up and leave him vulnerable to the gods know what. In addition, the NK is after him. He takes a huge risk every time he tries to find him, and the more often he takes that risk, the higher the probability that the NK will destroy him—and with Bran, maybe humanity’s last hope.

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    64. Anon:
      Anyway Jon yells: Fall back! He makes eye contact with Torumund and Jorah, then suddenly Dany is there! So, she flew like the wind and made it there in the late afternoon?

      When Dany is waiting at the wall for any sign of Jon, there’s light low on the horizon, so it’s sunset.

      Basically Dany made it there in like 6 to 7 hours. And that’s my main issue with the whole thing.

      It’s 3000 miles from King’s Landing to the Wall, as stated by Yoren in Season 1 Episode 10 (1000 leagues = approx. 3000 miles).

      And Dragonstone is right next to KL. So basically Dany flew over 3000 miles in 6 to 7 hours.

      That means her dragons are basically as fast as commercial airliners. Now look, obviously dragons are fantasy and breathe fire and do lots of impossible shit. But for them to fly as fast as a plane, when they’re animals, is a little much. They don’t have jet engines. Plus they are apparently able to fly at that speed for hours in a row, without any food or rest.

      And Dany would also not be able to survive flying at such a speed. It would be the equivalent of riding on top of an airplane. At that speed, the wind smashing into your face would suffocate you. She’d die within seconds. Not to mention she doesn’t have a saddle, and literally left with nothing but the clothes on her back. No food, no water, nothing. As if it’s just a short trip.

      She flew 3000 fucking miles, lol.

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    65. There’s no issue with time passing off-screen. We don’t need to see travel, and there doesn’t necessarily need to be explicit dialogue about passage of time. But, I’d argue that in a world as intricately crafted as this one, where details matter, the writers should keep track of realistic travel times so that when different storylines intersect, the timeline actually makes sense.

      Because this was the issue with later seasons. In Season 1, it worked. Catelyn rides to KL, which is about a month’s journey, and then meets Tyrion in the Riverlands probably around 2 weeks later. So it’s been like 6 weeks since she left Winterfell.

      Meanwhile, Tyrion went from WF to the Wall (2 weeks), stayed there for what seems like probably a few days or so, and then runs into Catelyn in the Riverlands, which is probably around 3-4 weeks later. All in all, it’s been about 6-7 weeks since he left WF.

      It syncs up.

      In later seasons, it’s all over the place. As an example, take Theon and Euron. They are both at the same place in Episode 2 of Season 7 during the battle at sea.
      In the very next episode, Euron returns to King’s Landing, and also makes it to Casterly Rock by the end of the episode (we see the Silence when Grey Worm is looking from the walls, so in any case, Euron’s fleet traveled all the way around the continent).
      In other words, for Euron, weeks have passed between the end of Episode 2 and the end of Episode 3. The same goes for Jaime, who is in Highgarden by the end of Episode 3, when he was still in KL at the beginning of that same episode. Indeed Jaime is in KL when Euron returns.

      Then in Episode 4, Dany learns about the events at Highgarden and Casterly Rock and leaves to ambush Jaime. Clearly, this has to be weeks after the sea battle and Euron’s return to KL, since she’s going to ambush Jaime on his way back from Highgarden.

      But, and here’s the issue, Theon only makes it back to Dragonstone after Dany has left, at the end of Episode 4.

      In other words, Theon makes it back to Dragonstone weeks after Euron made it back to KL. Why ? Dragonstone and KL are right next to each other, and Euron and Theon were in the same location at the end of Episode 2. Here we can see, the timelines do not sync up at all.

      This is the issue when characters travel at the speed of plot. And Seasons 6 and 7 are full of it. It’s a problem because it completely hinders suspension of disbelief, when you know that suddenly characters can and will show up anywhere on the map at any time if the writers feel like it. In other words, geography is not an obstacle anymore, even though the books and early seasons go to great lengths to make time and space very real elements of the story.

      This allows for deux ex machina all over the place. Characters can just teleport. It’s much more realistic and suspenseful when the audience knows and feels that certain characters simply cannot make it in time to a certain location. It creates tension based on the fact that you know there isn’t time for certain things to happen. There’s no tension when you know the writers can and will break any established rule they need to in order to force the plot where they want it to go.

      The lack of realism of the show in this respect is disappointing, hence the criticisms.

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    66. Crap response as an excuse for crap writing.
      Sorry dude, you dropped the ball.
      No matter whether everyone else does their job right, if the script is wrong, everything else is going to be wrong.

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    67. Jack Hamm,

      That’s why I prefaced it as I did. I didn’t mean it as a “go away” but as a “if the show is truly making you so angry, it’d honestly be better for your mental health if you didn’t watch it.”

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    68. Nick20,

      Maybe, Westerosi miles are different? One way or another she covered the distance a ship made like in 3 weeks. But hell, dragons are magic, she is magic – let it be.

      I had more problem with dialogs. When Tyrion was talking with her by the fireplace his message was like “You two are in love and it’s OK”. And in the next sceen he trid to talk her out of saving the man she just realised to be in love with. And that made no sense. But we’ll se how it plays the next season.

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    69. I had sooo many issues with the time jumps in S7, but Dany flying North wasn’t one of them. We never saw her recieve a raven so there’s no indication she did.

      I just figured she’d grown restless waiting and decided to fly north against Tyrion’s advice. 🤷🏼‍♂️

      I admit, those scenes could’ve been edited better to indicate this though.

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    70. Nick20,

      Yes, it’s strange with Theon. Still, we can assume the ship which picked him had to hide somewhere to avoid running into Euron’s fleet and/or to make some repairs or even to sail in a different direction before going to Dragonstone.

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    71. Nick20,

      I read that dragonstone to eastwatch is ca 1500miles (2500km). Not 3000 miles. And I think she did a little bit longer with it. I think around 1,5 day. (I think they are stranded around 3 a 4 days on that island if I look at the Ice and Thoros dying of infection.) It is stated that the wall is 3000miles to the most south point of dorne. Dragonstone is ca halfway through

      Nick20,

      I think your timeframe is way off.

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    72. kevin1989,

      something went wrong with my editing:
      I made a time frame but even I couldn’t make sense of it all.
      What happened was:
      Theon getting in the water. Getting rescues later, arriving at dragonstone.

      In the meantime Euron went to KL back to CR. Do we know highgarden wasn;t happening sooner. Than CR. Because if CR battle happened maybe days later it makes more sense.Even more because the distance between CR and KL and HG and KL is about the same. But even Jaime arrives back in episode 4 (the end) and Unsullied arrived back I guess around episode 6. (Not in 5). Meaning that they arrived later in CR than Jaime in high garden.

      So I think your right, it could have handled better. I think the timeframe could work but I don’t have the time to think about it.

      ps. I think the battle of CR happens around the timeframe of episode 5 (Ending) or around 6. Not before. That’s the only way Euron could be at CR.

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    73. If my memory serves me right, Daenerys and Melisandre were in the same place while the Magnificent Seven were going beyond the Wall.

      I think the most plausible thing to do, for the writers, was giving Melisandre a vision of the future in which Jon and his pals were in trouble.

      Jon & Pals go beyond the Wall > they get trapped > flashback with Mel seeing the future in the flames and warning Dany about the imminent danger > Dany goes there and saves them. Simple.

      Way more realistic than Flash Gendry, I think.

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    74. Wolfish:
      Looper,

      Bran can’t be watching all the time, any more than he can stay in the past for very long—it’ll mess him up and leave him vulnerable to the gods know what. In addition, the NK is after him. He takes a huge risk every time he tries to find him, and the more often he takes that risk, the higher the probability that the NK will destroy him—and with Bran, maybe humanity’s last hope.

      As I was re-watching this episode today, I was thinking Oh F’k, as soon as they take the Wight through the wall it will just become bones like happened in the Tree cave!
      Then I thought, ‘Well, I can believe it because Bran is marked so the magic doesn’t work anymore..’

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    75. Wolfish: Jon and Bran haven’t reunited yet. No one in that group of people had any idea what Bran’s capabilities are.

      I haven’t made it all the way through the comments, so my apologies if someone else already pointed this out.

      You are right. I think it may have been believable if they re-worked the script some so that Bran had a vision instead of going the Gendry sprint/Raven route. But Luka made me feel better saying that the path to the frozen lake was close to the sea the whole time so Gendrey wouldn’t get lost and would soon see the humongous wall. One of my problems was that Gendry could actually find his way back so easily. But I can go with that he was close to the sea and then the giant wall would be in view at some point. I really loved Jon’s look as the Wights were about the overrun the island rock. It was the same exact look in the BOTB when all those horses started charging at him and it was him against the entire army. I love those scenes. The other similar scene was Jaime jousting the dragon/dany through the flaming fields. That’s part of what makes the show so moving for me. Those are great scenes. And the fact they made their own frozen lake pouring concrete was pretty cool, I have to say.

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    76. Inga

      Tyrion’s kind of in love with Daenerys, and she is the whole purpose for why he’s back in Westeros too so it stands to no question why he would not want her to go when there’s a great likelihood she won’t make it back.

      Who knows, maybe he even wants Jon dead?

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    77. Wolfish,

      I mean that they would have had to have something happen first and re-write a few things to have Bran have the vision. He did send out his own warged ravens, but that was before Jon went beyond the wall.

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    78. Nick20: Basically Dany made it there in like 6 to 7 hours. And that’s my main issue with the whole thing.

      It’s 3000 miles from King’s Landing to the Wall, as stated by Yoren in Season 1 Episode 10 (1000 leagues = approx. 3000 miles).

      And Dragonstone is right next to KL. So basically Dany flew over 3000 miles in 6 to 7 hours.

      That means her dragons are basically as fast as commercial airliners. Now look, obviously dragons are fantasy and breathe fire and do lots of impossible shit. But for them to fly as fast as a plane, when they’re animals, is a little much. They don’t have jet engines. Plus they are apparently able to fly at that speed for hours in a row, without any food or rest.

      And Dany would also not be able to survive flying at such a speed. It would be the equivalent of riding on top of an airplane. At that speed, the wind smashing into your face would suffocate you. She’d die within seconds. Not to mention she doesn’t have a saddle, and literally left with nothing but the clothes on her back. No food, no water, nothing. As if it’s just a short trip.

      She flew 3000 fucking miles, lol.

      Yeah, that’s really fast. I chalked it up to the dragon going high up and riding currents to get speed and conserve energy, or something like that. I understand that the dragons can range over long distances and they flew from Essos to Westeros, so they have some serious stamina. I’m more concerned by Dany’s ability to survive at high altitude with the cold and without goggles etc.

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    79. Tron79,

      Maybe, they just wanted Bran to look unuseful and lost in all that torrent of information, utill Sam came? But I agree: Bran could and should have been used both in saving Jon and revealing Littlefinger’s scheeming. It’s sad that they cut the scene where Sansa went for his adwise.

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    80. i find it funny how this is still a topic of conversation.

      they clearly played somewhat fast and loose with logistics in order to create dramatic moments. Dave Hill all but acknowledges this. and frankly that is a tradeoff film makers frequently face and there are many great films where the filmmaker make a choice to sacrifice logic for tension and drama and that paid off.

      In this specific case, that trade off worked for some, probably most people, and it did not work for others.

      You can either not think about it or assume that they were on the island for a few more days (and there are good Watsonian arguments that support that).

      Or you can just assume that they were only there for a one day and get upset about how quickly ravens and dragons fly.

      Personally speaking I just enjoyed the episode and the thrill of Dany saving the group and showing herself to be the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms through her actions and just assume they were on that island for enough time to make it all work.

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    81. Kevin1989: Anon,

      Death by infection can take days. The death of thoros is enough to make the audience know days have past. I think like Luka said they just needed one sentence to let us know it was really days. Could even made it funny by letting the hound say it.

      My impression was that he died from blood loss – even though they tried to cauterize the wound – and from shock and cold. I just think the others couldn’t survive without shelter or fire for more than a couple days. It’s hard for me to think of them out there for multiple nights. Would it have taken several days for a raven to get to Dragonstone…I don’t know.

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    82. Anon,

      I read a interesting theory. Thoros died of cold I read. Because of his injury he could keep warm. But he should because of the lord of light. Somehow the lord of light couldnt keep him warm like he warmed Mel. Wonder why

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    83. Inga:
      Anon,

      That’s the same impression I had: they left at dawn, got trapped in the afternoon, Gendry made it back to the Wall till dusk, the raven made it to Dragonstone over nigth, and then Dany came in the afternoon. The only problem: there were too many weather changes. But then again: weather can change several times in a day, especially at different heights. So, all in all I had little to no problem regarding that.

      And IMO, Ep 6 was basicly a filler: there were nice charracter moments, and it moved the pieces to certain positions for which we’ve got a full pay-off in Ep 7 but in general all that could have been done in a dozen other and probably better ways. That’s why the episode felt so off: it just wasn’t thought through properly.

      O the other hand, most of the super-hyped high-budget Hollywood movies are way worse in that sense. So, IMO we can live with “Beyond the Wall” as it is. After all, the spectacle was great, Jon & Dany was close to perfection and after all the rewatches I even grew to like Sansa & Aryaplot.

      I am at peace with it, Inga. Whatever problems there are aren’t so egregious that I would reject the whole episode. As long as I can rationalize it in my mind, I’m cool.

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    84. Inga:
      Tron79,

      Maybe, they just wanted Bran to look unuseful and lost in all that torrent of information, utill Sam came? But I agree: Bran could and should have been used both in saving Jon and revealing Littlefinger’s scheeming. It’s sad that they cut the scene where Sansa went for his adwise.

      I am hoping Bran has a major role this season. It was heartbreaking when Meera said, “You died in that cave”. When I re-watched that scene this time around it was even more heartbreaking. I am hopeful there will be a huge payoff for Bran this season. I do think you’re right that Bran will mostly be used as Sam’s partner.

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    85. Tron79,

      I think the 3er will die in him this season and he will be bran again. I think the 3er somehow upload himself in him. And that brans brain can’t keep bran and 3er seperated. Conflict in his mind. He will feel again I think in season 8.

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    86. Long ago Benioff said each season was constrained to 540 min. , tho that may of had some deltas , and later some of that was relaxed, tho not by a heck of a lot. Maybe was budget constraints for a few seasons…. but never quite understood the 1 hour fits on HBO , HBO was flexible time slots. I am not sure Westworld follows a fixed season length, within reason.

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    87. Nick20: Basically Dany made it there in like 6 to 7 hours. And that’s my main issue with the whole thing.

      It’s 3000 miles from King’s Landing to the Wall, as stated by Yoren in Season 1 Episode 10 (1000 leagues = approx. 3000 miles).

      And Dragonstone is right next to KL. So basically Dany flew over 3000 miles in 6 to 7 hours.

      That means her dragons are basically as fast as commercial airliners. Now look, obviously dragons are fantasy and breathe fire and do lots of impossible shit. But for them to fly as fast as a plane, when they’re animals, is a little much. They don’t have jet engines. Plus they are apparently able to fly at that speed for hours in a row, without any food or rest.

      And Dany would also not be able to survive flying at such a speed. It would be the equivalent of riding on top of an airplane. At that speed, the wind smashing into your face would suffocate you. She’d die within seconds. Not to mention she doesn’t have a saddle, and literally left with nothing but the clothes on her back. No food, no water, nothing. As if it’s just a short trip.

      She flew 3000 fucking miles, lol.

      I totally agree, if we say it’s 2500 miles from EBTS to DS, it’d take a raven 2 full days (50h at 50mph) without rest to reach DS. Not to mention the time for Dany to travel North. So it’s not even remotely possible. That’s why I don’t think Dany actually recieved the raven, she set off before Gendry even left Jon and the group.

      kevin1989,

      It’s 3000 miles from the Wall to Dorne. KL/ DS are only a few hundred miles north of the southern coast of Westeros.

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    88. Obviously, the more continuity the better, but if we can suspend our disbelief enough to be ok with dragons and ice zombies existing then we should be able to do the same for the time jumps.

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    89. Kevin1989,

      IMO, Beric served his final purpose, when he had that exchange with Jon about being the shield guarding the realms of men. After that Beric became expendable and so was the priest who was resurrecting him. That’s why Thoros was sort of released from the servise and allowed to pass in peace. At least, that was my impression after I watched the episode. And I assume that Beric’s death wich can be expected next season will set some the framework for Jon’s furure death (though there’s no need for him to die right after Melisadre dies).

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    90. Mr Derp:
      “We made a choice to ‘just get on with it’ last season”

      “With all the things we were balancing to set things up for season 8, sometimes we had to speed things up

      Translation: we sped through season 7 cause we were in a hurry to “get to the good stuff” (ie Season 8)

      Actually I felt the pacing problems really only affected episodes 5 and 6? Episode 5 squeezes enough events together to fill three episodes, and episode 6, well that one is uneven, at best. I felt the pacing of 1-4 and 7 were just fine, really. Episode 3 ends with a conversation between Jaime and Lady Olenna that lasts about 5-6 minutes and is decidedly leisurely paced…

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    91. Kevin1989:
      Tron79,

      I think the 3er will die in him this season and he will be bran again. I think the 3er somehow upload himself in him. And that brans brain can’t keep bran and 3er seperated. Conflict in his mind. He will feel again I think in season 8.

      I hope you’re right that Bran becomes more Bran again this season. I’m not sure if 3er will die in him though. I think the realm will still need the 3er, and with most time travel stories there will be some sort of twist in play. But with only 6 episodes, it’s hard to say where D&D want to take things. I have to say after reading the comments these last few days on WotW from book readers, I know what I’ll be doing once the season is over. I’m mostly a show watcher and I’ve only heard some of the books on audio while working out. I will take the plunge after Episode 6 and actually read them. I’m looking forward to Lady Stoneheart and so many of the other details that book readers have mentioned on this site.

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    92. Wolfish,

      Totally agree. But we didn’t see much of Bran doing anything except the one or two times he was trying to check out the Night King using ravens, which is arguably the most dangerous thing he could’ve been doing.

      All I suggest is he gets a vision of Jon and co. in danger in the future and writes to Jon at Dragonstone to tell him about it, and not to go North. Only Jon is already gone and Dany gets the letter instead and decides to go North to save him.

      This is also just one option, and a simple one at that.

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    93. Joe,

      I feel very similarly. I loved season 7 (and still do) but I see more of its major faults after reading other peoples’ opinions online.

      However, I do see the point in criticizing these problems, even if you don’t see them until someone else does. The more corners show runners/producers/whoever feel they can cut, they will. They’ll take advantage of an audience until the audience says, “No, stop.” And it’s important that even if small things like this don’t bother you, that we don’t let bigger issues spawn from them. This goes for all shows and movies beyond Game of Thrones. If the Titan that is Thrones cuts corners, others will too.

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    94. Beyond the Wall is the most egregious logic error in that we need to come up with some ridiculous contrivances to even conceive of how the hunters could have survived in the middle of a frozen lake long enough for all of the necessary travel between Gendry, the raven, and Daenerys to happen, and the sheer coincidence that Daenerys arrives exactly five minutes after the wights realize the lake has frozen over again. The easiest way to accept this is that the Night King is a strong greenseer, knew the dragons were coming, and intentionally waited to attack because bringing down a dragon was a much higher priority than stopping Jon’s hunting party.

      That said, after a full rewatch, I actually think season one committed the most time jumps. I don’t remember noticing the first time I watched it way back when, and didn’t notice at all reading the book because we spend so much longer at each location, but things happen really fast. Robb receives the raven from Sansa, calls the banners, marches to the Twins, makes the deal with Walder Frey, tricks Tywin, and captures Jamie Lannister at the Whispering Wood in under an episode. That was probably six months of real-world elapsed time, judging from how long it took to mobilize and march armies that distance back as recently as the American Civil War before we had motorized vehicles and paved roads. You certainly don’t get the sense watching the King’s Landing scenes that Ned Stark was in the dungeons for six months. At least when Dany gets however many thousands of Dothraki screamers across the narrow sea to attack the loot train in half an episode, they were already mobilized and waiting to move for three episodes prior. She didn’t have to call them in from every far corner of the north and wait for 30 different lords to muster their personal forces. And they all had horses and weren’t walking.

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    95. My issue wasn’t with time skips for travel. But when I have to believe they sat there for 2.5 days and weren’t all dead, that knocks me out of suspension of disbelief. As does being told all that took only one night. Even in a show with magic and dragons. Really. Crows fly fast, but not that fast.

      Sapochnik (I believe) mentioned in the EW issue that Sam couldn’t look too bad ass fighting because that wasn’t Sam. BTW needed more red shirts to freeze to death for kindling. And a bit less awesome swordplay from people who’ve been fighting hypothermia. That’s showing passage of time within the narrative.

      My other nitpick is surely Jon had heard about the arm of the wight being taken to KL by Thorne as proof of the crazy happening. But, of course, it rotted once it crossed the Wall/after Thorne’s wait time at court (sidebar: how could the wight move after it had passed the Wall??). Tyrion is the one who dismissed the rotted arm. None of that is brought up in the council meeting on DS where they, led by Tyrion, hatch this idea to bring a wight to KL.

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    96. I think people don’t understand that the real problem wasn’t time jumps but different sense of time for different people. Euron has the battle with sand snakes, comes back to KL and goes to Casterly Rock in the same time it takes GW to reach Casterly Rock from Dragonstone. Also, in terms of overall logic, the lesser said about episode 6, the better.

      I also don’t think many people are able to register the idea that some people loved seasons 1-4 or the books so much that they are already too invested in the story to just go away despite considering lot of Season 6 and Season 7 as illogical and just fanfic. To me the show has definitely lacked gut punching deaths so regular till season 4 ( Jaime and Arya survivals were pretty questionable though), and is mostly plain dumb in handling plots. That doesn’t mean I stop watching or stop criticising what I don’t agree with.

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    97. Inga:
      Kevin1989,

      IMO, Beric served his final purpose, when he had that exchange with Jon about being the shield guarding the realms of men. After that Beric became expendable and so was the priest who was resurrecting him.

      I think Beric is alive so he can give the Kiss of Life to some important character and then die. In the books he died after reviving Catelyn, who became Lady Stoneheart. Probably this series he’ll revive someone he’s wronged, like Gendry or Arya, or someone the LoL wants alive, Sandor or Jon.

      Tron79,

      He never left the big city. He was a city boy so saying this was a stretch is an understatement. Honestly they should have just used Bran to see what was happening and send the raven.

      I agree about using Branview instead. But Gendry fled KL and spent two seasons roaming with Arya, Yoren, Lorch, and stayed at Harrenhal and later with the BwB. And then Melisandre dragged him to Dragonstone, from which he rowed all the way home. I think he has a sense of direction.

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    98. Nick20,

      Okay that’s just plain nonsense, in my opinion. Season one had some of the most EGREGIOUS time lapses in the history of the entire show. You mean to tell me that in the span of ONE episode it was realistic to show Robb rallying his banners, becoming this military maestro, and capturing Jaime? The passage of time to account for that wasn’t hard to conjure up, but it wasn’t as if the show spelled it out for us either. Both season seven and one are equally guilty of such moments.

      And let’s not forget how fast it took an enourmous camp of soldiers to arrive at King’s Landing in the second episode of the first season. I believe Cersei mentioned in the first episode how it took them a month to even get there.

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    99. Rizwan:
      The writers are incompetent, period. They had absolutely no idea how to write the show after the book material ran out. The season 7 was fanfic level bad; and I expect no better this season as well. Everyone is so hyped for season 8, I may be the only one thats worried about the story…. Oh yes, it will have “spectacular” battle scenes; the longest – and the darkest – battle ever filmed, blah blah. I will be happy if I can even see what the hell is going on in the battles in that “stylistic” pitch black – watching the trailer alone required to fully crank up my monitor brightness.

      HAHAHAHAHAHHA

      So why season 6 was the best season with the two best episodes of the series? Season 5 was the worst even with the book material.

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    100. Nick20,

      Your comment reminds me of something an old friend told me 20+ years ago, about reading The Last of the Mohicans in high school and calculating some of the distances (by canoe) as described in the book. Her conclusion was that James Fenimore Cooper was great with English but shitty with math.

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    101. I agree with…most of you here, I think. I was able to make sense of even the biggest time-passage issue of the season (BTW) without going, “Wait, that couldn’t possibly have happened…” Still, it would’ve been good to have an additional line or scene of some kind to clarify the duration better. Or perhaps the “oh look now the ice is hard enough for the dead to cross” was intended as that.
      Me, I’m still wishing they’d given Arya & Sansa a few quick lines explaining what evidently went down with them (how Sansa consulted with Bran after growing suspicious of Littlefinger, then realizing he was the villain and not her sister, so the three conspired to take him down. Would’ve helped people understand that storyline better instead of guessing.) But as for the timey-wimey stuff, yeah…I certainly don’t need pointless travel scenes or the SpongeBob narrator chiming in with “Several days later” or whatever. xD

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    102. Tron79,

      Agree with all your points, and like you, until reading Luka’s comment I hadn’t made note of how close the M7 remained to the sea. It DOES make a difference to realize that upon rewatching!

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    103. Personally I have no problem with that apparent time gap.
      Jon and his crew are save on the rock, because the ice breaks and the dead have to wait for it to refreeze. Hmm…I remember seeing water freezing instantly whenever the dead are near. So, maybe it taking as long as it took was exactly what the night king wanted.
      I believe the night king has some Bran-like magic himself. Maybe he knew what was going to happen. After all, that dragon he managed to get a hold of, came in pretty handy.

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    104. Tron79,

      I’ll be terribly disappointed if that’s the last we saw of Meera, or if we never meet Howland Reed. On that note, having read through most of the comments I’m surprised that virtually all of them are about the time jumps and jet packs. To me, what was most jarring about what happened offscreen was the conversation. At the risk of sounding like yet another slobbering Arya fangirl (sue me), it simply doesn’t strike me as realistic that among all these people who had spent a great deal of time with her, not a single conversation arose out of it. That’s what really made S7 feel rushed to me—the dearth of long, realistic conversations.

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    105. Looper,

      Gotcha.

      Like you and many others, I look forward to seeing a… well, not exactly more humanized Bran (that would be a step backwards at this juncture), but a more active Bran, growing into his place as the 3ER.

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    106. They could’ve had a simple exchange of dialogue to show the length of time for Dany to get there. Tyrion could’ve added on “it will take you at least X days to get there, they can’t hold for that long…” blah blah, something like that to show time.
      Then the next scene on the frozen island, everyone looking very tired, hungry. In the scene we got, they don’t seem like they’ve been there that long, shouldn’t they be huddling? Or maybe they are all huddling and then the Hound gets up (pissed off at the staring) and throws that rock. Then everyone snaps to attention?

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    107. Adam,

      2 episodes for season 1. Episode 8 ends with Robb being with cat. Episode 9 starts with the twins. But still more time jumps than in season 7.

      About episode 7×06.i always have a feeling that the nk can sense things. He knew Dany was coming. He was waiting. Else he could have just frozen the lake with his magic and it would have been done in a couple of minutes.
      And the conversation with Dany and tyrion always made me feel dany didnt receive that letter yet but just being unsettled that she didn’t hear something of Jon and knew something was wrong.
      Ps.i looked at the map and did dany just flew over land (the north) or went longer on water.

      NinaD,

      You really have a problem with a scene that happened in the books but not the show?? Thorne never went south in the show. They just send a letter.

      AIAA,

      Those illogical time jumps between characters happened in season 1 also. Like Adam said. Robb went south which took maybe a month at least if not longer till he reached the twins and defeated Jaime.
      At the same time Ned was death after being imprisoned in a week. Meaning the went back in time in episode 9. So that argument is invalid if you liked season 1 and not 7.

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    108. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Or maybe Dany?

      Or he fucked up and revived the nk. Xd

      Edward,

      I agree with you but the Robb part was done in 2 episodes. And they weren’t at kl buy at the crossroads. CA halfway. But they arived beginning episode 3. But still season 1 had more time jumps. And don’t forget lf in season 2. And don’t forget Arya escaping from harrenhall happened the same day as tywin leaving harrenhall. And that she met jaqen the day after. But the battle of blackwater is much later maybe 3 or 4 days. Meaning the went back in time in the season 2 final. Or the mutiny in season 3. And a episode later the Raven arrive in kl with the news about it.

      João Victor,

      With the reruns I have to say the worst is season 2. I couldn’t really get into the story because every 5 minutes a new storyline started. And only kl felt like you were really there. It jumped all over the place. Scenes were stretch over multiple episodes.
      S4, S6, S1, S7, S3, S5, S2 for me.

      Apollo,

      Yes but that’s the books. The show westeros is shorter. It’s 1500 in the show.
      That was made clear also when roose talked distances of the north.

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    109. Wolfish:
      Tron79,

      I’ll be terribly disappointed if that’s the last we saw of Meera, or if we never meet Howland Reed. On that note, having read through most of the comments I’m surprised that virtually all of them are about the time jumps and jet packs. To me, what was most jarring about what happened offscreen was the conversation. At the risk of sounding like yet another slobbering Arya fangirl (sue me), it simply doesn’t strike me as realistic that among all these people who had spent a great deal of time with her, not a single conversation arose out of it. That’s what really made S7 feel rushed to me—the dearth of long, realistic conversations.

      Wow, thanks Wolfish for agreeing with me. People agreeing with me can be a rare thing. I admit I’m a bit obsessed with Arya’s character. I still yell even through my multiple re-watches if Maisie isn’t in the credits that episode. My son got me an Arya flash drive for my bday! To use it, you have to remove Arya’s head, and I don’t have it in me to take off her head, so I just enjoy seeing the flash drive in the box.

      Luka’s comments will make it better for me upon re-watch knowing how close they were to the sea and realizing it’s a pretty big f’n wall, so you will be able to see it.

      Yes, others did not speak of Arya at all other than Sansa talking to Littlefinger. Let’s see if you still agree with me on something else. No one (no pun intended) has agreed with me yet on this. So many complained about Arya’s and Sansa’s arc in season 7. Having just re-watched it, I love those conversations. In a way Arya was able to take on Sansa’s face and be like Sansa looking at herself in a mirror. Everything Arya said to Sansa was right on the mark and was intended to help Sansa face the truth about her actions and her motives. This is when I realized just how much Arya learned from the Waif and her training. Just like Arya had to admit to herself (with Waif’s help) that the Hound was off her list, I think Sansa had to admit to herself that she took the safest route of least resistance to help her survive. I think Littlefinger did the sisters a huge favor trying to turn them against each other. It gave them a chance to work through real issues and then they were able to get past it and realize they had each other’s backs. Sansa’s move to send Brienne away I thought was a gesture to keep Arya safe from Littlefinger. Arya’s flip of the dagger back to Sansa was the last step of letting Sansa know that she wasn’t really going to hurt her. And then they come together to take on LF and from what I understand in season 8 from interviews they have a much better understanding of each other and they can build on their relationship. LF did them a huge favor. Yes, conversations are some of the best moments of GOT for me mixed in with some amazing action.

      Back to this thread topic, even though I see some plot holes, it doesn’t bug me to the point of not being able to appreciate the overall story. I think knowing now from interviews that season 7 was a setup for 8, I think there won’t be as much of an issue with the time lapses and they will take their time more in some of these supersized episodes.

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    110. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      The Kiss of Life it the book only thing. There’s no setup for that in the show. Not saying that it can’t happen, but still Beric has been used basicly as a model to Jon: he’s setting a precedent and whatever happens to him should happen to Jon as well. So far, Beric’s story was used to establish that dead people can be resurrected by the red priests and that they don’t die immediately, if their priests die but probably can’t be resurrected anymore. Therefore, if Jon or anyone else kills Melissandre, Jon will lose the chance of a repeated resurrection. That might be an important point.

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    111. Stark Raven’ Rad,
      Inga,
      I’m struggling a bit to find a purpose for Beric in the show at this point. I agree with Inga in that he has been and will probably continue to be a model or proxy of sorts to Jon, but how I’m not sure. I just hope that if he or Mel do resurrect someone this season that it is purposeful. That’s why I don’t think it will be (and hope it won’t be) Jon. We’ve already been through that and it would feel redundant and uninteresting to kill him and revive him again.

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    112. Wolfish:
      Tron79,

      I’ll be terribly disappointed if that’s the last we saw of Meera, or if we never meet Howland Reed. On that note, having read through most of the comments I’m surprised that virtually all of them are about the time jumps and jet packs. To me, what was most jarring about what happened offscreen was the conversation. At the risk of sounding like yet another slobbering Arya fangirl (sue me), it simply doesn’t strike me as realistic that among all these people who had spent a great deal of time with her, not a single conversation arose out of it. That’s what really made S7 feel rushed to me—the dearth of long, realistic conversations.

      Agree with you on Meera…and it seems odd that she and her family would never be heard from again, knowing what the rest of the north (and Westeros) is facing. But I am not holding my breath.
      I made the same comment about Arya and conversations above. For me, “time jumps” is not just oversimplified it is inaccurate description of what detracted from enjoyment of the show. It just felt handwavy at times, and there are lots of little things that could have improved the flow and sense of “reality”. I’ll take that deleted scene from Sansa and Bran for instance.

      I chalk it up to what I mentioned earlier- a massive undertaking with tough deadlines. And yes, by presumably (and understandably) weary showrunners who were focused on getting to to point B so they could wrap it up in season 8.

      I still thought it was the best show on tv (though production value carried the weight more) – found episode 4 AMAZING start to finish and lots of other great stuff throughout.

      I have a feeling I will enjoy the rewatch more consistently. Counterpoint to everyone’s “internet makes it worse” – I felt what I felt while watching, never distract with internet during the show! I used this site and everyone’s positive comments and dissections to help me appreciate it more and get past some of what felt “off”.

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    113. Wolfish:
      Tron79,

      “….At the risk of sounding like yet another slobbering Arya fangirl (sue me), it simply doesn’t strike me as realistic that among all these people who had spent a great deal of time with her, not a single conversation arose out of it. That’s what really made S7 feel rushed to me—the dearth of long, realistic conversations.”

      _________
      Unabashed slobbering Arya fanboy here. (Sue me too. Along with Devin’s cow.)

      I concur. From the moment Jon recognized the Hound in the Eastwatch cells in S7e5 throughout the trek beyond the Wall in S7e6, nobody asking about or mentioning Arya kind of took me out of the immersion. It just wasn’t natural.
      Also, in both episodes, Gendry kept ranting about the BwoB and Mel, Mel, Mel. Not a word about Jon’s sister Arya who had saved his a*s at least twice during the year(s?) they spent together, from S1e10 through mid-S3.

      One doesn’t have to be an Aryaphile to acknowledge that when circumstances brought together Jon Snow, Sandor Clegane, Gendry, Beric Dondarrion, and Thoros of Myr, it would be realistic that the one thing they had in common – shared experiences with the KitN’s brave little sister – would be the first topic of conversation.

      All Threads Lead to Arya.”
      – Ancient Roman adage

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    114. Wolfish: That’s what really made S7 feel rushed to me—the dearth of long, realistic conversations.

      Isn’t that what 90% of the last two episodes were? They discussed basically everything. Tormund and The Hound on Brienne. The Hound and Brienne talking about Arya, Tyrion and Cersei about Myrcella and Tommen. Fucking Longclaw got a scenes worth of discussion

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    115. I can’t stop talking because it’s only 25 days away! so I am writing some more here.

      Ten Bears said somewhere back that he lost being “immersed”.
      That’s the issue with the time lapses and other plot holes. I can believe magical dragons are part of the world, but when something happens that wakes me up and makes me realize it was D&D doing it, it gets annoying, because I don’t want to wake up and realize D&D made it happen. That being said, I get re-immersed quickly. I still can’t let go of Ayra’s wound and how she recovered (sorry I jumped back a season). I have really tried to let that go. But D&D could have had a simple solution with giving a FM healing abilities, since your whole body changes when you put on the mask, it makes sense to me that in this world when you take off the mask and change back, your old body could be healed. Anyway D&D didn’t go that route, so I have to live with Lady Crane being really good at patching people up. I won’t rant for too long here. I have ranted about this before. I’ll finish with the fact that I used to work for a Major League sports team as a mascot, and I also worked at State Fairs as a big Dog and other characters that walked around and shook hands with the kids. We were taught you can’t talk while in costume or it ruins the illusion. I guess that’s what has happened with some of the time lapses and plot holes, but as I said, I do quickly get over those and get back into it… (except for that one No One episode). That’s all for me.

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    116. Ten Bears: _________ Unabashed slobbering Arya fanboy here. (Sue me too. Along with Devin’s cow.)

      One doesn’t have to be an Aryaphile to acknowledge that when circumstances brought together Jon Snow, Sandor Clegane, Gendry, Beric Dondarrion, and Thoros of Myr, it would be realistic that the one thing they had in common – shared experiences with the KitN’s brave little sister – would be the first topic of conversation.

      All Threads Lead to Arya.”
      – Ancient Roman adage

      I agree with all of you. Last pre-season I read the leaked outline and reveled in the assumption that together the Magnificent Seven would play “small world one-upsmanship” about her while trekking in the North. Alas, no. Nonetheless, there is a very silver lining to this. D&D may have done this deliberately because THIS year all threads actually will indeed lead to Arya. If anything, she will suffer a reunion overdose, and we Arya-philes will swoon with pleasure. Ah, what delicious calm before the storm. PS. Who/what is Devin’s cow?

      Tron79,

      Congratulations, Tron, on voicing an important insight into the sisters’ Season 7 Winterfell relationship that is both new and positive. I concentrate on what I think was covertly going on, but you’re right–they both benefited from the experience. Hamlet (which IMO has a bigger impact on GoT than most fans realise) has a line”…to hold, as ’twere, the mirror up to nature.” The script states that Sansa knew Arya was right about her ambitions. Every time Arya confronts her, she also first brings up something positive that binds them: Ned’s likeness and their having long stories of suffering, memories of Ned on that balcony, their shared disappointments in not being allowed to choose what they would be, etc. And in their last, reassuring chat, Arya speaks first, simply asking, “Are you all right?” She had been cruel only to be kind (Hamlet again!). In all my theorising, I’ve rarely mentioned my belief that Arya set out not just to dispose of Littlefinger, but also to disentangle Sansa from his very malign influence. Arya did briefly falter because she was genuinely upset about that letter, but ended up using it for their benefit. (Fans forget she could have taken it to the Lords and gotten Sansa in serious trouble.) Later, when she handed Sansa LF’s Dagger, it was a signal and a passing of the baton. The final decision had to be Sansa’s. And Arya’s reward was that **SAnsa** sentenced Littlefinger and finally realised that the lone wolf dies. The Pack survives.

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    117. There are worse problems with the final seasons of the show than some dubious passage of time. Cheesy deus ex machina interventions have become the norm, such as Sansa and Theon being saved by Brienne, Jon being saved by Benjen, etc. There are situations that completely break the previously-established consistency of the amoral, realistically unforgiving world the series is supposedly set it, such as Arya shrugging off stab wounds, or Jon surviving not only a fall into a frozen lake, but a long ride home in a freezing weather with no consequences whatsoever.

      Then you have contrived setups such as a surrounded Ramsay given opportunity and time to shoot arrows at Jon in an obvious intent to give the viewers satisfaction and to provide cheap shock value. Furthermore, the series never explained how the White Walkers were supposed to pass the wall that had kept them out for so long, so it’s convenient that they were provided with a dragon during the course of the very mission that was initiated to thwart their objectives. Stuff like this shouldn’t be left for the viewers to speculate about, and various motivations and decisions should be explained in a more coherent manner.

      I haven’t touched the flattening of the characters and the dialogue. It appears that the series at this points is mostly about action scenes, costumes and bro jokes. It’s unfortunate, because there was potential for so much more. I will admit that the writers were left in a difficult situation once they surpassed the books, though.

      To those asking why the more demanding of us even care to watch given our vexations: the criticism stands on its own regardless of the motivations. Personally, I watch for closure.

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    118. Vigilist,

      Dude, I thought it was super clear first time I saw the ep that they stood there from evening to dawn on that little lake island. I didn’t think Gendry would run for 8 hrs straight and then send the raven to Dany who’ll take another 15 hrs (if you think Iverness to Brighton and a really, really speedy pigeon) and then she flies back in 4. And that brings all back to around 27 hrs as the BEST possible solution if you willingly crunching it. So clearly they stayed there for days…

      All I thought at the time was: twilight and then dawn and then Dany was there in a span of however takes between twilight and dawn or they’d have frozen to death there for more than a night!

      I wasn’t being purposefully obtuse, and neither were many that posted back than, but thank you because we all came here to read what Vigilist thinks of people who comment not about the show. Not about the show itself. Cause Seven forbid Vigilist talks about the show and the ep instead of people who comment on the ep!

        Quote  Reply

    119. Ten Bears,

      I keep telling myself they must have their reasons, because that can’t be an oversight. But it felt like we’re-going-to-pretend-there-are-no-connections-here-because-reasons.
      I fear that an emotional reminder of the bond between Jon and Arya in s8 will feel a bit contrived after 65 episodes of nothing.
      Ah yes, that line of Sansa’s in the crypts. Think that even registered with the casual, non-book-reading viewer? Do they remember that Jon gave her Needle?
      Aw heck, I will still cry when I see that in “previously on”…

        Quote  Reply

    120. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      Thanks Stark Raven’ Rad.
      I really thought much more about those scenes during my recent re-watch. Sansa really needed to face herself. Their relationship that was displayed on the battlements at the end of the season should carry them forward in season 8.

        Quote  Reply

    121. Nick20,

      Lol Jesus Nick, now I have to review my calculations! 3000 miles and I only put down that the speedy pigeon flew about 800 km! How long did they really stayed on the little island?!?! A week?!

      I’m going to stop reading the upward thread now because who knows what I’ll find out…

        Quote  Reply

    122. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      [Hot Pie appreciation subthread detour]

      By contrast to the Snow Patrol’s conspicuous silence about Arya, in S7e2 and previously in S4e7, Hot Pie expressed genuine concern about what happened to Arya; put himself at risk to confide in Brienne and share information that might help Arya; and volunteered updates about her brother Jon.

      Abridged Excerpts:

      • (S4e7 Hot Pie, Brienne & Pod at crossroads inn)

      Hot Pie: “….What brings you to these parts?”
      Brienne: “We’re looking for someone.”
      HP: “Someone in particular? ….”
      Brienne: “A girl, tall, red hair, very pretty. Her name is Sansa Stark, but she may be using a different name.”
      HP: “Starks? What, like them lot from ‘Winterhell? No, ain’t seen anyone like that. I heard they was all traitors. Don’t need no traitors in here.”
      Brienne: “I pledged my life to their mother Catelyn Stark. I swore to her I’d bring her daughters home.”
      ***
      (Next morning. Brienne and Pod saddling horses, when Hot Pie emerges from inn carrying wrapped bundle, looks around cautiously, then approaches them)

      Hot Pie: “My lady. My lord. Could I have a word?”
      Brienne: “What about? Not kidney pie.”
      HP: “You seem like a proper lady. Someone who could be trusted. I never met no Sansa Stark. But I know her sister, Arya.”
      Brienne: “No one’s seen Arya Stark since her father was beheaded. She’s presumed dead.”
      HP: She weren’t when I last spoke to her.
      Brienne: “When was that?”
      HP: “Heading up north with the Night’s Watch. She was all dressed up as a boy.
      Like your ladyship, only without the armor.
      Going by the name Arry.”
      Brienne: “So what happened to her?”
      HP: “Well–”
      Brienne: “The quick version.”
      HP: “The Lannisters took us prisoner. We escaped. The Brotherhood took us prisoner. They sold me to the innkeep.
      They were going to sell Arya to her mother at Riverrun along with another prisoner. Big ugly fellow. Foul mouth and a face like a half-burnt ham. Not friendly.”
      Pod: “The Hound.”
      Hot Pie: “That’s the one. If you find her, could you give her this?”(Unwraps bundle, revealing wolf bread 2.0). “She liked the last one I gave her, but, well, this one turned out better.”
      __________________

      • S7e2 (Arya inside crossroads inn, eavesdropping on two men traveling to KL, when Hot Pie, with a tray, comes over to her)

      Hot Pie: “Arry!”
      Arya: “Hello, Hot Pie. Sit down. Who’s that for?”
      (Without waiting for a reply, Arya reaches over and grabs a pie from the tray and starts eating it.)
      Arya: “Mmm. This is good.”
      ***
      HP: “I can’t believe you’re here. Did you meet the big lady?”
      Arya: “Big lady?”
      HP: “The lady knight. I figured she was a knight because she had armor on. She was looking for your sister but I told her about you. Did she ever find you?”
      Arya: “She found me.”
      (A pause; Hot Pie’s expression changes to serious concern)
      HP: “What happened to you Arry?”
      (Arya doesn’t answer, and stares off. After a few seconds, she changes the subject…)
      Arya: “Got any ale?”
      (Hot Pie starts to reach for a pitcher on the tray, but Arya grabs it first and pours herself a cup.)
      HP: “Where are you heading?”
      Arya: “King’s Landing.”
      ***
      Hot Pie: “I thought you’d be heading for Winterfell.”
      Arya: “Why would I go there? The Boltons have it.”
      HP: “No. The Boltons are dead.”
      (Arya, taken aback, drops her food and looks at Hot Pie)
      Arya: “What?”
      HP: “Jon Snow came down from Castle Black with a Wildling army and won the Battle of the Bastards. He’s King in the North now.”
      Arya: “You’re lying.”
      HP: “Why would I lie about that? He’s your brother, right?”
      (Arya gets up to leave; fishes through her purse)
      Arya: “Thanks for the pie.”
      HP: “Friends don’t pay. … I can’t believe I thought you were a boy. You’re pretty!”
      Arya (tentatively): “Thanks.”
      (Arya stands up, puts hand on Hot Pie’s shoulder.)
      Arya: “Take care of yourself, Hot Pie. Try not to get killed.”
      HP: “No, I won’t. I’m like you, Arry. I’m a survivor.”
      (Arya leaves the inn, mounts her horse. Facing south, she looks at the two travelers heading to KL, then looks to the north. She turns around to head north and rides off.)

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    123. Mr Derp: Jack Hamm

      Thanks for clarifying. I know nothing and had forgotten what “fan” stands for; short for fanatic I believe, or crazed, lunatic, maniac, crank, freak, fiend, partisan, or some other such term for crazy. This explains all

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    124. The Wolves of Winter: Conversations in movies and television very rarely are. They seem natural, but they aren’t.

      Sure they are. That’s one of the reasons S4e7 is my favorite episode. In particular, there are two scenes with just two characters talking, in which one of them is recounting a significant past event: (1) Oberyn recalling his trip to Casterly Rock when Tyrion was a baby, concluding with Oberyn’s declaration: “I will be your champion.” (2) Sandor describing to Arya the physical and emotional pain of Gregor burning him when he was a little boy, and their father covering for Gregor.

      Those were more engrossing than any action spectacle. And the conversations proceeded organically, and didn’t feel forced.

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    125. Pigeon:
      I find that suspension of disbelief spares me a lot of mulling over when watching television. I just didn’t understand the big deal, which is fine.

      I’ll second this. Pretty straightforward if you ask me. I mean- this is fantasy, right?

      Also. I thought it was clear that Thoros died during the night, so we know that mission was at least a couple of days.

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    126. damn I noticed all the names popping up on the screen every episode . Who the fuck is Kit Harington? Immersion broken! I am also 8 years old

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    127. Ten Bears,

      No they aren’t. Conversations in movies and tv have a purpose. In real life they don’t.

      A dialogue or scene needs to move the story forward, provide new info, resolve conflicts (like Gendry and BwB) etc etc. None of that would be the case if they would talk about Arya on screen. The only thing they could say about her is what we the audience already know. They also don’t who she is now post-Braavos. Let alone if she’s alive or not. Now I do think they have talked about her, it just wasn’t shown.

      To be fair, though Gendry should have mentioned her when he first meets Jon.

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    128. Winterkat:
      Ten Bears,

      I keep telling myself they must have their reasons, because that can’t be an oversight.But it felt like we’re-going-to-pretend-there-are-no-connections-here-because-reasons.
      I fear that an emotional reminder of the bond between Jon and Arya in s8 will feel a bit contrived after 65 episodes of nothing.
      Ah yes, that line of Sansa’s in the crypts. Think that even registered with the casual, non-book-reading viewer?Do they remember that Jon gave her Needle?
      Aw heck, I will still cry when I see that in “previously on”…

      ______
      • On Jon’s side, I’d agree. Show! Jon doesn’t really mention Arya after giving her Needle in S1e2 and telling her “I’m going to miss you”, until that wonky moment in S7e5 when Jon c/o Dragonstone gets a ravengram and inexplicably* says “I thought Arya was dead.”

      *Arya was alive and well and “looked good” according to Brienne’s report to Sansa in S6e2. I don’t know why Jon would have thought she was dead. Nor can I think of a reason why Jon – once he became KitN – didn’t at least send an investigative team to look for Arya or find out what happened to her, but I won’t nitpick that detail. (I’ve said before that if my dog were missing I’d express more concern for her whereabouts and trying to track her down.)

      • However, on Arya’s side their are constant reminders of her connection to Jon, sometimes via Needle (“my brother gave me that sword!” while marching to the inn to retrieve it from Polliver in S4e1; tearing up on Braavos dock, unable to part with Needle in S5); or trying to book passage to the Wall in S4e10.

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    129. Tron79,

      Re: Sansa’s move to send Brienne away
      I’m pretty sure that in some interview, it was clarified that she did that to protect herself. I don’t remember the details but something along the lines of didn’t want Brienne taking Arya’s side. She was uncomfortable that they quickly formed a bond.
      But still, I agree with your overall sentiments on this arc and other topics in this thread.
      I found that I liked the Sansa/Arya arc a little more if I stepped back and really thought about their journeys and what they knew and remembered of each other, putting myself in their minds made it a little less awkward feeling. I can appreciate the lack of trust and circling each other in conversations, the weirdness and the inner conflicts.

        Quote  Reply

    130. Jack Hamm,

      Thanks Jack. For the record, I don’t think I’ve ever had a problem with your posts. It was the person’s post that you were defending that I didn’t care for.

      There’s no doubt a number of crazies in this fandom, but one step short of crazy what do you get? Passionate! I like to think most of us are in this bracket, but I can’t speak for all 🙂

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    131. I think a better order of events on “beyond the wall” episode would have been to:

      1) Have Dany and Tyrions covo about the mission; Dany express she should be there. Have Dany make the decision to head to the wall for back up just in case.
      2) Have the walker ambush, Gendry running back to the wall
      3) night king surrounds everyone
      4) Gendry arrives and collapses at wall with a shot of the Dragons already hovering above, implying Dany is already there. Or dont, we already know she is in motion.
      5) Dany shows up

      This would have also given into Dany’s take action montra she already adopted when she attacked the loot train.

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    132. Stark Raven’ Rad,

      P.S. Sorry for the oblique “Devin’s cow” reference.* All day yesterday, it was all over the news here that U.S. congressman Devin Nunes sued a cow: a Twitter parody account named “Devin Nunes’ Cow”, #DevinCow.

      * In my reply to Wolfish (who wrote
      “At the risk of sounding like yet another slobbering Arya fangirl (sue me), it simply doesn’t strike me as realistic that among all these people who had spent a great deal of time with her, not a single conversation arose out of it.”),

      I responded:

      “Unabashed slobbering Arya fanboy here. (Sue me too. Along with Devin’s cow.)”

        Quote  Reply

    133. KingWatermelon,

      I always find it veeeeeery interesting when people cite all of these reasons the show has gotten worse, but rarely reference actual instances to corroborate their claims. What is this flattening of dialogue you’re talking about that’s taken place in the last few seasons? On my rewatch, I’m noticing that while the storytelling is sharper in earlier seasons, the dialogue is literally at the same quality it’s always been. Also, you can count on two hands how many “bro jokes” there was in season 7. And let’s not act like other seasons didn’t suffer from their own hosts of issues. There’s always this revisionist history with some of the earlier seasons as if they were perfect. The only seasons that were closest to perfect are three, four, and maybe six (although many book readers would dispute that one).

        Quote  Reply

    134. Kevin1989,

      I’m glad you agree. It’s always nice to see someone share your thoughts.

      But I probably should clarify that I’m aware the Robb stuff took place over to two episodes. But I meant that it primarily takes place between the span of one set of episodes. So basically from 1×08 – 1×09 which is where I got the “one” episode from.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Tron79,

      Believe it or not, I mostly agree with you about the Sansa/Arya relationship in S7. The first time I watched it I hated it and thought it drew too much from pretty sister-vs.-tomboy sister clichés, but on rewatch I liked it far more. I still dislike the speed of the Littlefinger resolution, though, and thought the character deserved far better writing for his last scene. “You killed her because you wanted power in the Vale,” really??? I still internally scream, “NO, I KILLED HER BECAUSE SHE WAS HOLDING YOU OVER THE MOON DOOR, YOU SPOILED, NAÏVE LITTLE 17-YEAR-OLD SHIT!!!”

      /end rant

        Quote  Reply

    136. Hunter Mac,

      While it didn’t bother me as much as many, that order of events probably would have squashed most of the issues people had. Just one or two small differences would have made it feel smoother. Sending Gendry back for help earlier or have Daenerys leave earlier were the easiest. The scene with Daenerys and Tyrion when she left wouldn’t have needed to be changed because they never specifically said they got a raven. It would have worked with one added line by Daenerys saying she’s going. The scene starts with Tyrion saying, “You can’t!” The rest is him saying they knew it’s dangerous and it’s too dangerous for her to go too.

        Quote  Reply

    137. Ten Bears: ______•On Jon’s side, I’d agree. Show! Jon doesn’t really mention Arya after giving her Needle in S1e2 and telling her “I’m going to miss you”, until that wonky moment in S7e5 when Jon c/o Dragonstone gets a ravengram and inexplicably* says “I thought Arya was dead.”

      *Arya was alive and well and “looked good” according to Brienne’s report to Sansa in S6e2. I don’t know why Jon would have thought she was dead. Nor can I think of a reason why Jon – once he became KitN – didn’t at least send an investigative team to look for Arya or find out what happened to her, but I won’t nitpick that detail. (I’ve said before that if my dog were missing I’d express more concern for her whereabouts and trying to track her down.)

      • However, on Arya’s side their are constant reminders of her connection to Jon, sometimes via Needle (“my brother gave me that sword!” while marching to the inn to retrieve it from Polliver in S4e1; tearing up on Braavos dock, unable to part with Needle in S5); or trying to book passage to the Wall in S4e10.

      On the first point, thanks for reminding me! I couldn’t remember if the message said something about Arya. And agree with your take lol

      On the 2nd…yup according to the storytelling experts we should have assumed Sansa told Jon offscreen. Yet apparently not.

      On the 3rd…I deleted a line on my earlier message that was something like “they [casual viewers] don’t know that Needle represents Jon Snow’s smile”. But point taken, they should understand the connection to her past, if not the special bond with Jon.

      I didn’t need a rehash of Arya’s journey in dialogue with Jon in s7. But in my view, some basic continuity and character work can be enough reason for a bit of dialogue, when the lack of it makes it feel “off”, and not true to the characters.

      PS just watched s4e7 a few days ago…love love love that scene between Oberyn and Tyrion. Was so looking forward to it and it never disappoints.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Edward:
      KingWatermelon,

      I always find it veeeeeery interesting when people cite all of these reasons the show has gotten worse, but rarely reference actual instances to corroborate their claims. What is this flattening of dialogue you’re talking about that’s taken place in the last few seasons? On my rewatch, I’m noticing that while the storytelling is sharper in earlier seasons, the dialogue is literally at the same quality it’s always been. Also, you can count on two hands how many “bro jokes” there was in season 7. And let’s not act like other seasons didn’t suffer from their own hosts of issues. There’s always this revisionist history with some of the earlier seasons as if they were perfect. The only seasons that were closest to perfect are three, four, and maybe six (although many book readers would dispute that one).

      Yes, I agree. The sad thing is that many book readers immediately develop dislike for something if it’s not from the books, especially dialogue. Not every line adapted from the books is best thing ever written. And I can say for myself that entertainment-wise, I enjoy later seasons a lot more. Regarding S7, I actually treat it as “first half” of a 13-episode season, with second half being S8. It just doesn’t really click me as full season on its own but I really love many of its episodes. Episodes 3, 4, 6 and 7 are all in my top 25 episodes.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Winterkat: On the first point, thanks for reminding me! I couldn’t remember if the message said something about Arya. And agree with your take lol

      PS just watched s4e7 a few days ago…love love love that scene between Oberyn and Tyrion. Was so looking forward to it and it never disappoints.

      If you need a way to get through about 2 hours between now and 25 days, watch the movie Prospect. It just hit Amazon a few days ago and it stars Pedro Pascal (and that was enough for me to give it a go). He has an almost Arya and Hound style journey in an alien world with Sophie Hatcher playing the teen character. I thought Pedro Pascal had an excellent performance, and it was a better than average sci fi story. I enjoyed the journey through the alien woods. It wasn’t exactly Hound and Arya, but it had some similarities, and seeing Pedro made me think about the conversation you mentioned.

        Quote  Reply

    140. Wolfish:
      Tron79,

      Believe it or not, I mostly agree with you about the Sansa/Arya relationship in S7. The first time I watched it I hated it and thought it drew too much from pretty sister-vs.-tomboy sister clichés, but on rewatch I liked it far more. I still dislike the speed of the Littlefinger resolution, though, and thought the character deserved far better writing for his last scene. “You killed her because you wanted power in the Vale,” really??? I still internally scream, “NO, I KILLED HER BECAUSE SHE WAS HOLDING YOU OVER THE MOON DOOR, YOU SPOILED, NAÏVE LITTLE 17-YEAR-OLD SHIT!!!”

      /end rant

      I agree Littlefinger’s resolution needed some more polishing and it could be that Sansa made this lie there for the sake of making Vale knights turn against him and make sure he doesn’t have any allies left.

      But I was really thinking of Littlefinger’s motivation… I so often see these complaints that we never got to know what was his final goal. But when I think of it, maybe Littlefinger was this dangerous exactly because he didn’t have such firm final goal, apart from driving the whole realm into chaos. Like Sansa said, that was where he was good at and what he kept doing all the time.

        Quote  Reply

    141. The comments here are probably horrible so I have no desire to read them, lol.

      However, I will say
      my issues with season 7 have nothing to do w/ time skips or location jumps. Couldn’t care less.

      My issue was that much of what happened seemed to be dictated by plot necessity rather than what would actually be believable or consistent with the motivations and development of the characters.

        Quote  Reply

    142. Tron79,

      Great tip, thanks!
      I shall have to write that down for future, as I am behind on my rewatch 😬

      (Oh and credit…my comment on the scene was prompted by someone else’s…Ten Bear? I think)

        Quote  Reply

    143. Lord Parramandas,

      Hey there mate,

      I agree that it is largely the book purists that represent the minority you shouted out. I mean, if you look at some of Sansa and Daenerys’ lines back during season one, they flirted between bombastic and downright bratty. But I do think that was somewhat appropriate since both were extremely immature and young during those seasons. Even, Catelyn had some odd lines.

      And even though moments like that persist, the main issue I have is people act like instances like that don’t exist at ALL in the earlier seasons.

        Quote  Reply

    144. The biggest problem with season 7 isn’t the timeskips. It’s the way they executed one of the most important plot/story episodes of the series… by squeezing in so much that it all became a bunch of contrivances that did not feel earned.

      If people are such fanatics about the show that they can ignore how poorly that was executed, then I’m glad I’m not a fanatic.

        Quote  Reply

    145. Edward,

      “I always find it veeeeeery interesting when people cite all of these reasons the show has gotten worse, but rarely reference actual instances to corroborate their claims.”

      I did provide specific instances that I found detrimental to the quality, didn’t I? But it is true I merely presented a small subset, and it is also true that I didn’t provide a rigorous in-depth analysis. This is for a simple reason that doing so would require me to write a 30-page essay that nobody would read, nor would it change anyone’s mind – it is the domain of subjective reality we are discussing after all. Regardless, the cited examples should be sufficient to illustrate my point regarding what I dislike, making your statement unjustified.

      “What is this flattening of dialogue you’re talking about that’s taken place in the last few seasons?”

      This is a fair question, and I won’t be able to answer it thoroughly in this brief comment. To give you a quick idea: what I liked about GoT is that at least some of the dialogue used to reflect existential struggles of the characters in a way that transcended the universe of the show, and made it relevant to our own. I claim at least a portion of it had artistic value in the sense that it offered material for thought and reflection. Let me give you just a few examples:

      1. Ned’s conversation with Varys while imprisoned. “You think my life is some precious thing to me? That I would trade my honor for a few more years of… Of what? You grew up with actors. You learned their craft and you learnt it well. But I grew up with soldiers. I learned how to die a long time ago.” The portrayal of Varys encountering an almost mythological man of integrity in an environment full of selfish opportunists was beautiful.
      2. Tyirion’s remark on dealing with prejudice beyond control: “Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you.”
      3. Robb citing his father’s insight on courage: “I asked him: how can a man be brave if he’s afraid? That is the only time a man can be brave, he told me.”

      We don’t get this level anymore. The dialogue now serves mostly to propel the story forward from one scene to the other.

      “And let’s not act like other seasons didn’t suffer from their own hosts of issues. There’s always this revisionist history with some of the earlier seasons as if they were perfect.”

      I don’t know who you are addressing here, but it certainly cannot be me as I never said that the previous seasons were perfect or even good. Keep in mind that I’ve not read the books, either. Indeed there’s a whole different level of criticism that could be aimed at GoT overall – for instance, despite trying to be brutally dark and cruel, I could argue that the show overall is still romantically naive, that its depiction of psychological motives and power struggles is rather cartoonish, etc. But I digress, as this is another topic altogether.

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    146. Lord Parramandas,

      Oh, he most definitely had ulterior motives to everything he did; I just thought that Lysa’s death, of all things, was something he was actually justified in. Sansa could have chosen any number of other examples of his deviousness and cunning.

      Great to see you back, btw!

        Quote  Reply

    147. KingWatermelon,

      As far as the the current dialogue not having meaningful subtext, I once again have to disagree.

      To support my claims I’ll site simply two examples that I think display a profound parallelism between our world.

      For one, Olenna’s final conversation with Jaime was extremely poignant. If you’ll remember, she stated that Jaime and her played a crucial part descent to madness and spreading her toxicity. And I think that was very telling about how people in the real world can perpetuate hate and spread it despite having righteous intentions. For example, retweeting controversial vitriol or even just staying silent while an injustice is being done. You can extrapolate that speech and apply it for a lot of things.

      And in episode 7×03, Dany apologizes to Jon on behalf of her father’s insanity. She even cautions Jon to not judge her for the sins of her father. That’s significant because many of the characters in the show have fathers and ancestors that were unsavory figures in history but have managed to break the antiquated cycles of their houses. And in real life, many of us first generation college students who are going on to do great things in life can relate to that struggle. We don’t want to be put in a box just because our parent’s squandered their opportunities or didn’t have the proper resources to push through. The point is that we can be our own entities separate from our parent’s legacies. And that was extremely thought provoking to me.

      And as far as me branding you as a revisionist and book purist, that wasn’t my intention. However, I assumed you may have been because your initial post made it seem like the earlier seasons were scotch free of the things that still plague the show. When in reality, most people conflate and confuse that with people just not liking the overall direction the plot is going. But at least to me, the dialogue quality is still largely the same.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Wolfish:
      Tron79,

      Believe it or not, I mostly agree with you about the Sansa/Arya relationship in S7. The first time I watched it I hated it and thought it drew too much from pretty sister-vs.-tomboy sister clichés, but on rewatch I liked it far more. I still dislike the speed of the Littlefinger resolution, though, and thought the character deserved far better writing for his last scene. “You killed her because you wanted power in the Vale,” really??? I still internally scream, “NO, I KILLED HER BECAUSE SHE WAS HOLDING YOU OVER THE MOON DOOR, YOU SPOILED, NAÏVE LITTLE 17-YEAR-OLD SHIT!!!”

      /end rant

      LOL. 😆

      Yeah, it would have been great had LF come back with something like “She was trying to kill you. I saved your life. Do YOU deny it? You lied to the council. Do you deny it?”

      LF has spent his life scheming, for him to just fold completely was disappointing and somewhat baffling to me. I don’t have a problem with the end result, but geez they could have (imo) stayed more true to his character throughout the seasons and given him one minute of making us think people MIGHT listen… Yes, he was caught by surprise, but he’s been caught off guard a few times. Ah well.

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    149. KingWatermelon,

      I don’t know about that. Perhaps even these moments that seem flat to you, are not. Maybe the beauty of the dialogue and scenes is also in the eye of the beholder and her/his interpretation.

      Because even though it may have been overshadowed by the action sequence in this episode, there is introspection and questioning, finality and resolution, coming to grips with one’s actions and purpose as odd as this may sound in the episode that spawned this thread. And in my opinion it is beautiful: Jorah renouncing Langclaw and judging his former self and his faults; Jon accepting there’s questions that may never be answered as to his purpose of being alive again, that perhaps there is no higher purpose than fighting death for as long as possible; Arya sharing the proud moment when she knew that a little bit of feminism lived inside such a outwardly stern, conservative by-the-rules man as Ned Stark.

      I may forget other scenes but for such an action packed ep, I think all those moments were extremely precious. They also resemble the ones you yourself mention and none of those truly propel the story forward.

      I am also a book reader first unlike you so you can imagine my surprise at reading your comment and the rest of the ones that address “book readers” in general and “book purists” in particular.

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    150. KingWatermelon,

      Oh yeah? Well, how about these quotes, then:

      “You wish to know where my true loyalties lie? Not with any king or queen, but with the people. The people who suffer under despots and prosper under just rule, the people whose hearts you aim to win”

      “Don’t fight in the north or the south. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening, all at once. Live that way, and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you’ve seen before”

      “Nothing fucks you harder than time”

      “But when enough people make false promises words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies”

      “Leave one wolf alive and the sheep are never safe.”

      “Give us common folk one taste of power, we’re like the lion who tasted man. Nothing is ever so sweet again.”

      And all that’s just from season seven.

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    151. That’s… Not really an explanation, that’s pretty much saying they just didn’t care and wanted to rush it, there was no reason to shorten both seasons if they felt so rushed. I’ll still watch the show because it’s basely entertaining but it used to be smart, the characters were well developed instead of cardboard cut outs of one dimensional tropes. The show went from being very intelligent, with character development, well reasoned plots, logical and interesting twists and tension to just having some low cunning and hardly any of the other stuff. It’s a shame they felt the need to rush. Well, not the need, they wanted to and decided “fuck it, I’m over this, just package it up quick, they’ll watch regardless”

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    152. costello,

      Why yes Costello, I do believe you sound like an 8 yr old ☺️

      More subtlety in sarcasm, please. Credits immersion breaking snark is for the little league. We’re all adults here.

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    153. Edward:
      Lord Parramandas,

      Hey there mate,

      I agree that it is largely the book purists that represent the minority you shouted out. I mean, if you look at some of Sansa and Daenerys’ lines back during season one, they flirted between bombastic and downright bratty. But I do think that was somewhat appropriate since both were extremely immature and young during those seasons. Even, Catelyn had some odd lines.

      And even though moments like that persist, the main issue I have is people act like instances like that don’t exist at ALL in the earlier seasons.

      I personally believe the problem in many of those overly negative rants (and I’m refering to people who are nothing but negative, not normal constructive criticism) is that they’re literally forcing themselves to watch something they clearly don’t like anymore. Regarding many TV shows out there, I so often hear “First season is good and then it goes downhill” and “I’m still watching because I’m too far to stop now”. Funny thing is that of all my favorite TV shows, 1st season is never my favorite exactly for the reason as I’m getting more and more invested in TV shows with new seasons.

      I was just refering to this problem on another (non-GoT) fansite… in a way that if you watch a TV show and you end up not looking forward to new episode or season at all or even feel frustrated over and over again when you think of it, then just stop watching for your own sake instead of being negative all over every fansite out there. I especially can’t stand when people get overly personal and hateful towards showrunners while presenting themselves as victims like they’re forced to watch the show. Too many people force themselves to watch TV shows they don’t really enjoy and GoT is such an example of that.

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    154. Edward,

      Season 3 had its issues also. I just halfway through season 6 (hold the door :()

      And I have too say there are 2 seasons where I liked every episode and wanted to see every single scene again. And that was season 4 and now season 6.

      I think the problem is more that got story is in the last act. It’s not new anymore. Something new is always more exciting. And at the same time multiple shows started with a got kind of vibe.

      And also people hate when a story stay on the same level. A story always needs to up their game every season. The problem is season 4.that season was so great that everything after that felt less than what came before. Because we only look at the last season that scored the highest.

      GeekFurious,

      If season 7 story was done in season 1 2 3 or 5 it would have been crammed in 3 or 4 episodes max. Every scene was more fleshed out in season 7. Maybe to much. Maybe the problem was more that it was mostly about 2 characters and not so much the rest.

      The only minor problem that I had with season 7 was that lf demise wasn’t because of Sansa but because of Arya.

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    155. TormundsWoman,

      …? I agree with the issues people had with the poor time management in that episode. I was referring to other points in the season that had very clear had time skips but people seemed to wilfully ignore just to complain. For example, the attack on Casterly Rock which started with Tyrion’s narration. I saw plenty of ppl act as if it was happening concurrent with Tyrion’s explanation and were saying that it didn’t make sense that he happened to be talking about it as it was happening. It was things like that. I’m not sure why you’re so upset with me.

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    156. Vigilist,

      True about unsullied leaving dragonstone at the end of episode 3. Meaning there was a time jump there. And meaning that euron was just maybe 2 hours behind their ships.

      But the only mistake was theon I think because euron went to kl then Jaime went away to high garden which takes at least 5 days marching. Then a Raven needs to go to Dany and she reacts. Making it around a week after the battle at sea that theon arrived at dragon stone.

      To make sense of this the battle needed to be around 5 days from dragon stone or if it’s shorter they should have added a scene to make sense of it.

      Now I think of it. Theon should have meet euron again and the unsullied leaving for cr. Because that happen at the end of episode 3 and Theon arrive at dragon stone in episode 5. (the battle of cr is probably around episode 5 or 6 but we see it earlier).

      To make sense of this there needed only one scene. Theon making clear the can’t go back the same route they come because they could be ambush again and that they first need back up on dragonstone. So they make a plan to first sail towards essos then north then back west again to avoid eurons fleet.

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    157. Pigeon: Yeah, it would have been great had LF come back

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! Yeah, wouldn’t it be so fricking funny, if someone who grooms a child for years, would have such a snarky comeback at his victim? OMG, so hilarious!!!!

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    158. Uurg, even Dave Hill mentions “jetpacks”. I take it as them admitting they got it wrong, or “cheat a bit”, as DH described it. And that “cheating” was well noted by fans of the show like myself.

      The thing is, you don’t NEED any title cards or such, just a line of dialogue. One of the magnificent seven (sorry, six, Gendry had already run to get help) saying to another something like, “The night’s drawing in again. I’m not sure we’ll see a fifth dawn.” Job done.

      Similarly, even without dialogue, visual clues could’ve shown passage of time. A character looking up at a full moon, then at a later scene showing a thin slice of a crecent moon, there’s two weeks right there.

      I’ve been busy with IRL stuff but I’ve read most WotW articles and skimmed through the comments. A few days ago someone (sorry, I don’t remember who it was) said S/S Love Boat could easily travel the distances it apparently did (and will do) because “even at only 50 km/h”, it’ll be able to cover the necessary distances no probs. I spluttered.

      The fastest sailing ships in our world, the mid-19th century tea clippers (built for speed, low cargo capacity) and the late 19th century, early 20th century windjammers (the pinnacle of sailing ships, with optimised metal hulls, donkey engines etc.) could only reach 21-22 knots (39-41 km/h) in very favourable conditions.

      The tubs the GoT world seems to have could only possibly reach speeds similar to my brother’s ocean-going yacht, 8 knots, 9 at a push, but then you’d be pushing structural speed – any faster, the boat/ship might break.

      Sailing speed is very pedestrian, cycling speed at best. The great thing about sea transport is that it can carry larger loads, or armies, than land travel more economically and faster, though still not very fast.

      Ho-hum, logistics works differently in fantasy worlds. The bone I have to pick is that the earlier seasons tried to keep it real, S7 threw it all out the window, unnecessarily IMO. They could’ve made the effort to make sense of it to us, the audience. Without silly title cards. I think they were a bit lazy. I think they dropped the ball a bit there.

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    159. Edward,

      In a purely factual sense, you are of course correct in that various parallels can be drawn, as you demonstrate with your examples – if for no other reason than drawing parallels is something ultimately rooted in our subjective interpretation based on our experiences, values, life situation, etc. However, the possibility of drawing parallels is itself not sufficient to make a certain piece of material (a scene, a dialogue …) poignant in the sense I refer to (admittedly vaguely) originally. There are factors such as context and how it is developed; how believable and relatable the character motivations and psychologies are, the non-triviality and originality of the material, as well how it is delivered by the actors, etc. One may as well consider the portrayal of Sam emptying chamber pots as a profound statement on the nature of corporate employment, or draw parallels between Xena: Warrior Princess and contemporary feminist movements. But things are of course much more complicated here, and establishing parallelism itself implies neither aesthetic quality nor profoundness.

      This is where endless theoretical waters begin, and I apologize as I won’t have the time to write a decent reply neither to you nor to others commenting on my posts, though it would be an interesting debate. For some of us, the new material simply doesn’t resonate in the same way – I think the best we can do in these comments is try to somewhat understand the differences in how we experience the same material, and what does it all mean.

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    160. Vally: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! Yeah, wouldn’t it be so fricking funny, if someone who grooms a child for years, would have such a snarky comeback at his victim? OMG, so hilarious!!!!

      Not hilarious or snarky. It would, however, be a completely valid (and true to character) counterpoint in arguing one’s case. 🙂

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    161. Rizwan:
      The writers are incompetent, period. They had absolutely no idea how to write the show after the book material ran out. The season 7 was fanfic level bad; and I expect no better this season as well. Everyone is so hyped for season 8, I may be the only one thats worried about the story…. Oh yes, it will have “spectacular” battle scenes; the longest – and the darkest – battle ever filmed, blah blah. I will be happy if I can even see what the hell is going on in the battles in that “stylistic” pitch black – watching the trailer alone required to fully crank up my monitor brightness.

      I completely agree with you.

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    162. GeekFurious:
      The biggest problem with season 7 isn’t the timeskips. It’s the way they executed one of the most important plot/story episodes of the series… by squeezing in so much that it all became a bunch of contrivances that did not feel earned.

      If people are such fanatics about the show that they can ignore how poorly that was executed, then I’m glad I’m not a fanatic.

      I think it is absurd to say people who liked it are ignoring it or are fanatics.

      To say that makes it seem like what you are saying is an objective fact when its not. It is your subjective judgement.

      As such, the truth is it worked for some people and for other people it did not. For you it did not work and that is fine.

      But for other people it did work, probably for many more reasons than just them being fanatics who are ignoring things out of fanaticism.

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    163. While I feel that the wight hunt episode’s timing are pushing the limits of believability, the fact that so many are suggesting lots of ways for the writers to have improved the audience experience by inserting short lines or other clues to make it clearer that the unlucky six were indeed on that island for 1/2 days or so, does mean that everyone accepts that it was possible for them to be there for that long. Just because it wasn’t made clear, hasn’t stopped everyone from coming up with their own versions of events for how long they were on that island. There are only a few suggesting it was utterly impossible for them to survive out there for the time needed for Gendry to run back to the wall and send a raven, for said raven to reach Dany and for her to fly in reinforcements. So for this reason, while it felt less neat in terms of storytelling than I expect from GOT, it isn’t something that deserves the furore it has received, in my opinion. Just because it wasn’t overtly stated or more subtly hinted at how long they were on that island, shouldn’t detract from the enjoyment of the episode. If you can imagine them waking up from a huddled sleep, turning to each other and going “balls, I thought we’d have frozen to death in our sleep; how can we have survived three days of this bullshit?” then it’s plausible that they were there for that length of time and it doesn’t need to be pointed out.

      I agree with everyone saying that season 7 seemed rushed in terms of conversations and slower scenes between characters. Every scene that carried any resonance or meaningful character interaction felt cut short to me – I feel they moved the dialogue on too quickly and we didn’t get time to really sink into a scene before it was time for the next one. I suppose this was done to abide by the curtailed season length, but if that is the case, then it feels redundant to have shortened the season if it led to rushed scenes. I was looking forward to the discussions the intrepid wight hunters were going to share, and while we got some good ones, others felt like wasted opportunities (Gendry’s moaning and being chastised by Sandor could easily have been replaced by something more meaningful and enjoyable). I feel they probably opted not to include Arya in their discussions because it might have led to too much conversation – Jon, Gendry, Sandor and Beric could have all spoken of her, so instead of having to choose which of these to include and which not (as it probably would have been too repetitive and lengthy to include them all and fully do them justice), they just didn’t include any. It would have been a peculiarly paced episode if the first half an hour was non-stop chatting by the wight hunt members (largely about Arya) and then bursting into action in the latter half. I’m wondering whether episode 1 of season 8 will include a bit of travel time before Jon and Dany arrive at Winterfell? This may give Jon, Sandor and Gendry time to discuss Arya/Sansa before they arrive?

      I feel that criticism of D&D spirals out of control sometimes in GOT fandoms. What really winds me up is the number of people who deride the amazing work they have done in bringing GRRM’s sprawling masterpiece to heel in a format that works for TV (and in the timeframe they have to stick to – unlike the years GRRM’s has delayed in presumably trying to tie all his loose ends together in a way that makes sense logistically), but come across arrogantly as though they could have done better; as though coming up with endings for the multiple storylines they were left with at the end of season 5 and concluding the story in a way that feels true to the original 5 books, yet also works for the TV masses, is an easy thing to do and how dare they do it wrong. I really feel for David and Dan and I feel they have done an extraordinary job.

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    164. Stark Raven’ Rad:
      In all my theorising, I’ve rarely mentioned my belief that Arya set out not just to dispose of Littlefinger, but also to disentangle Sansa from his very malign influence.

      Very, very unsupported by the text, and by everything all of the creators and actors have said. Arya does not act to disentangle Sansa from Littlefinger — quite the opposite, in fact, she does exactly what Littlefinger wants and drives Sansa back into listening to him, something she wasn’t doing in the prior episodes. Indeed, Sansa and Arya never talk about Littlefinger early on, and the only time Sansa does mention him in Arya’s presence is when she warns Bran about accepting things from him. And if Littlefinger hadn’t bizarrely miscued on assigning Arya a motivation, we’re evidently meant to believe he would have succeeded in turning them against each other.

      Ten Bears:
      Nor can I think of a reason why Jon – once he became KitN – didn’t at least send an investigative team to look for Arya or find out what happened to her, but I won’t nitpick that detail. (I’ve said before that if my dog were missing I’d express more concern for her whereabouts and trying to track her down.)

      I agree with the general notion people have expressed here that the show does a bad job of conveying Jon’s belief about/relationship with Arya, but on that specific point, I think there are two pretty good reasons: firstly, the Riverlands are at this point enemy territory, but even more importantly, it’s by that point been somewhere between 2-3 years since Arya was last sighted by Brienne in the Riverlands. And Brienne was unable to locate her at that time, despite herself searching the immediate area for [indeterminate period of time between 410 and 501]. Sending men to the Riverlands at this point would be pure needle-in-a-haystack.

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    165. Edward:
      KingWatermelon,

      As far as the the current dialogue not having meaningful subtext, I once again have to disagree.

      To support my claims I’ll site simply two examples that I think display a profound parallelism between our world.

      For one, Olenna’s final conversation with Jaime was extremely poignant. If you’ll remember, she stated that Jaime and her played a crucial part descent to madness and spreading her toxicity. And I think that was very telling about how people in the real world can perpetuate hate and spread it despite having righteous intentions. For example, retweeting controversial vitriol or even just staying silent while an injustice is being done. You can extrapolate that speech and apply it for a lot of things.

      And in episode 7×03, Dany apologizes to Jon on behalf of her father’s insanity. She even cautions Jon to not judge her for the sins of her father. That’s significant because many of the characters in the show have fathers and ancestors that were unsavory figures in history but have managed to break the antiquated cycles of their houses. And in real life, many of us first generation college students who are going on to do great things in life can relate to that struggle. We don’t want to be put in a box just because our parent’s squandered their opportunities or didn’t have the proper resources to push through. The point is that we can be our own entities separate from our parent’s legacies. And that was extremely thought provoking to me.

      And as far as me branding you as a revisionist and book purist, that wasn’t my intention. However, I assumed you may have been because your initial post made it seem like the earlier seasons were scotch free of the things that still plague the show. When in reality, most people conflate and confuse that with people just not liking the overall direction the plot is going. But at least to me, the dialogue quality is still largely the same.

      Lets not forget about the scene between Jon and Theon in 7×7 which is probably my favorite piece of dialogue in s7.

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    166. To be honest, most of the complaints of season 7, I wouldn’t have noticed or realised if I hadn’t read it online. I prefer to enjoy what I watch instead of nitpicking. I loved the episode ‘Beyond the wall’. I loved the conversations with The Hound, Tormund, Beric, … Only the Arya – Sansa conversations I didn’t like.

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    167. Wolfish:
      Ten Bears,

      LMAO because you assumed Stark Raven’ Rad is not American, presumably because of her stellar command of the English language. 😂

      _____
      Everywhere I looked yesterday, everyone was having a field day goofing on Devin Nunes suing the Twitter parody account “Devin’s Cow” for defamation. Commentators were ragging on him for calling attention to an obscure Twitter user (posing as a cow on one of Nunes’s dairy farms), thereby calling attention to the very statements he was claiming were defamatory.

      The story spread like wildfire [pun intended]. #DevinCow started the day with less than a thousand followers, but within 24 hours of the filing of the silly lawsuit that number had multiplied to over 100,000. Then a cable news producer (?) circulated a request to the public to increase that number to exceed the number of people who had voted for Nunes. I’m not sure what the current count is.

      I had no idea what was going on when I went to check for GoT and other entertainment news. Every story (with every cow pun in the book) was about this fictional Twitter cow, and how thin-skinned Nunes’s shortsightedness illustrated “the Streisand Effect.”

      I’ve generally avoided TV and online news because every day is another episode of the same surrealistic sh*tshow, but even I could not escape the cow story. (Plus, it’s pretty funny.)

      When SRR asked what the Devin’s cow reference was all about, I assumed she wasn’t in the U.S.

      🐄

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    168. Pigeon,

      FYI: I found my “revised” LF trial scene, in which he turns the tables on Sansa and refutes all of the “charges” against him – but then unwittingly incriminates himself in a treasonous act that was not included in Sansa’s episode 7 murder and treason charges, and did not require BirdBoy’s visions as the only evidence.

      A lawyer friend contributed to the revised scene. The only problem is that I got carried away and inserted the Hound and Stannis in it, and changed the ending to Sansa (channeling Beric) sentencing LF to trial by combat to determine his guilt or innocence.

      Lemme see if I can clean it up and excise the silliness….

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    169. So, I’ve been away for quite a while due to real life busyness. But I’m back, GoT is soon back. What a time to be alive!

      I can’t get into a tizz about runtimes or trailer thingys… Except… The trailer was so DARK! I don’t have the latest super-duper HD Oled (or whatever) TV. I have my newish full HD laptop, my pad and my phone. And I know I’ll have to really peer at the dark scenes. Thanks.

      I’m listening to S7 sountrack piece “Winter is here” on repeat. It first plays when Jaime looks at snow falling on him, on Kings Landing (Cersei), then heads north on a black horse. (Previously, Jaime has ALWAYS had a white horse – go check it out!)

      The snowflakes and music fall like regrets, but are also clean and pure, a chance of redemption. If he will take it.

      Poor Jaime, nobody but Brienne will believe him. He has shit for honour, as Catelyn put it. But Brienne saw through all the bravado and pretence and saw there really is some honour there.

      GRRM has explicitly said he’s written a “the beauty and the beast” story with a twist in the books so far, and the show has adapted most of it, though stetching timelines etc.

      I know all regular WotWers know I’m a hopeless Jaime fangirl, lol.

      But really, I like Jaime because in the books, maybe even the show, he’s the most realistic, adult character. He stands out among all the entitled or superpowered teenagers, or even his own power-hungry siblings.

      In the books, he reflects on his past and tries to right wrongs, tries to look after the smallfolk, tries to gain a better reputation. Too little, too late, but there’s a glimmer of hope. For the smallfolk and for him.

      I’ll go and listen to “Winter is here” again.

      Oh, yeah. Jaime will die. I’m already in pre-mourning. It’s easy for all yis ASNAWP fans, your favourite is one of the most likely to survive.

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    170. talvikorppi:

      But really, I like Jaime because in the books, maybe even the show, he’s the most realistic, adult character. He stands out among all the entitled or superpowered teenagers, or even his own power-hungry siblings.

      In the books, he reflects on his past and tries to right wrongs, tries to look after the smallfolk, tries to gain a better reputation. Too little, too late, but there’s a glimmer of hope. For the smallfolk and for him.

      Right here is where you capture why Jaime stands out for me. He is the adult in the room.

      His life is very adult. His problems are adult. He is has had to make impossible decisions. He had made big mistakes. He has also taken great risks. He leads with his heart and it sometimes bites him in the ass. He has had to rebuild his identity and now that he thinks it is possible to live to higher ideals; every day he strives to be a better person. He fails. He tries again. He resonates with me more than almost any fictional character I have watched/read.

      I will not give up on him living until I have no further choice. His survival would be affirming for me in a manner that is difficult to explain.

      So…I will be the crackpot that refuses to disbelieve. In fact, let me climb out further on this slender limb – Jaime will be the leader/king (or at least get a beach cottage on Tarth!). Roll credits!

      (I am not sure why this is in italics)

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    171. Greetings all! The wait is almost over.

      Season 7 didn’t need 10 episodes. Probably just 8 woulda been perfect.

      Greedily I’d have liked some quick travel scenes for character and plot line building. Each scene no more than a 10 min.
      John and Davos to Dragonstone. Gendry, Davos, and Tyrion after leaving King’s Landing. Gendry and John. Jamie and Bron..

      Dead horse: ‘Beyond the Wall’
      Woof. There’s a few things. The SR-71 Raven from Eastwatch to Dragonstone. Gendry the marathoner in a strange land and climate. Still cringe at that. Mainly because the writers had established the dragons knew Aegon/Jon is Targaryen. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      Ready for season 8, but I’ll be sad when our watch has ended. Seven blessings, friends!

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    172. Ten Bears,

      Oh, I’m aware of what happened. It’s a scream. But I knew nothing until I watched The Daily Show, so I suppose SRR might have heard of it late as well. 🙂

      Back to our regularly-scheduled programming…

      talvikorppi,

      One of my very favorite lines in any of the books is the simple response Jaime gives Brienne when she asks why he came back for her: “I dreamed of you.”

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    173. Young Dragon,

      Fair enough. Thanks for the correction. Thorne goes missing for three seasons after he’s sent with the hand, and instead a letter pops up in s2 with info about encountering wights which only Tyrion takes seriously. Another plot hole.

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    174. talvikorppi:
      Oh, yeah. Jaime will die. I’m already in pre-mourning. It’s easy for all yis ASNAWP fans, your favourite is one of the most likely to survive.

      Haha! Jamie is definitely one of my favourite characters as well; easily in my top 3 behind Arya (obviously.. 🙂 ) and Jon.

      As heartbreaking as it would be, I can accept Jamie’s death because if done right it could be really beautiful. I’m 90% sure that if Jamie dies, it will be in the act of killing Cersei, finally eradicating that part of him that has been such a big part of his “bad” side. Then he will be remembered for the good things he has done, with his deeds recorded in the white pages by Brienne or Tyrion for posterity. The stain of his “Kingslayer” monicker will be washed away, or at the very least understood for what it was.

      Arya on the other hand is still a young girl, and when we were introduced to her, she was feisty, adventurous, rebellious, and completely endearing. The trauma that she has endured and been witness to is really unspeakable. Yet despite all this, and some questionable decisions on her part, she has held firm to her core as a Stark. She has completely lost her childhood and her innocence, and her life is irreparably damaged. (Of course, same goes for Sansa and Bran.) Of course, Arya is incredibly strong and she can carry on — on her own if she needs to — but to lose her now after all she’s been through.. No! Too much!

      So I guess what I’m saying is, I’m not just protective of ASNAWP because she’s my favourite, but because her character deserves a more interesting ending.

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    175. Enharmony1625,

      Just out of curiosity – how will being a form-changing assassin fit into a future for Arya?

      I cannot imagine living in a home with someone with a bag of human faces kept in their cupboard. How does that fit in normal life?

      I do not think she will die or that she should. But I just could not see how she will function outside living in H of B&W. Sansa has suffered but I can see her with a normal life.

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    176. Wolfish:

      One of my very favorite lines in any of the books is the simple response Jaime gives Brienne when she asks why he came back for her: “I dreamed of you.”

      Oh yes. But, in typical Jaime fashion, it was the truth but not the whole truth. He’s referring to his “Weirwood dream” but not telling Brienne everything about it.

      That book-only dream is seminal to understanding the character Jaime, and also where the character might go. The show doesn’t have it – dreams are impossible to believably depict in the show, anyway – and Jaime’s characterisation has been quite different in the show.

      In the books, at least, that dream has important future implications. Jaime’s (suppressed) guilt and regret about failing to protect Rheagar’s children … But he might have another bite at the cherry… Also, after he wakes up, he has a profound moment of self-awareness and realisation. He thinks of Ned, and then, “It was never him.”

      Now, that line has been analysed to death, but I take it to mean Jaime realising nobody has blamed him more than he himself, not even Ned. For sure, Jaime projected all that on Ned for years and years, to protect himself. The teenager had to blame someone else for how wrong his life turned out but the adult is finally acknowledging and accepting his own culpability.

      Brienne was in that dream, as a beacon of hope. (Also, naked and surprisingly womanly.) So, yeah, she was in the dream but it wasn’t about her, it was about the Kingsguard, oaths, vows, guilt, regret, Rhaegar, Rhaegar’s children…

      Anyway, Brienne brings out the best in Jaime.

      Please, please, please, let him have at least one sweet, meaningful moment with Brienne before he dies. (In her arms? He jinxed it in S5, silly sod.) Please…?

        Quote  Reply

    177. talvikorppi,

      Jaime lives.

      I cannot make sense out Brienne’s arc if Jaime dies. I know life in GRRM’s world can be brutal but I cannot imagine another loss for Brienne.

      Writing about Jaime in the book will take perhaps 1 day. Even if she is pregnant when Jaime dies it still leaves her in a very difficult position if they did not marry. I just cannot see this future for Brienne.

      Brienne’s brings out the best that was always in Jaime. He just returns to being himself (as he was meant to be) because he now believes that there is something of worth in the world. He gets a chance to rebuild his identity and he reclaims who he always was meant to be.

        Quote  Reply

    178. Mango:

      Your response is in italics because you wrote it inside the tags, no probs.

      Here’s the thing. Jaime was a teenager, Jon’s age, during the last years of the Mad King’s reign, serving in his Kingsguard. That experience profoundly affected him. Mentally scarred him for life. He retreated into a teenager bravado persona. Arrested development. He only begun to grow up, become an adult, after Robb Stark captured and imprisoned him (for nearly a year), and especially after he was sent on his way with Brienne.

      He’s still trying to find his way, to grow up and – heh – be the man he was meant to be, like Tywin once put it in S1 – though I think Jaime’s and Tywin’s ideas of what that means are quite different.

      However, Jaime has an edge over all the teenage heroes of the saga. Age and experience. In the books, he’s in his mid-thirties by now, early forties in the show. He might’ve acted like a petulant teenager until a couple of years ago but he does have life experience. Not all of it pretty.

        Quote  Reply

    179. Enharmony1625,

      I don’t think the world at large will know what a true hero Jaime was before he died. Only a few people will. Brienne. Tyrion? Dany? Stark kids? Most of the world will continue to revile him. Hah! The “unsung hero” trope! 😀

        Quote  Reply

    180. Mango,

      Very good question, indeed. There’s a fairly popular theory that in the books, Arya will be the one to give mercy to Lady Stoneheart. Coming face-to-face with your resurrected zombie mother (looking the way she does) and having to kill her a second time will surely snap Arya out of her assassin ways. Though I’m generally fine with the show cutting out LSH, this moment is so full of symbolism and horrifying and heartbreakingly beautiful all at once that I am a bit sad that we won’t get to see it on screen. (Credit goes to Firannion for first bringing this theory to my attention.)

      Ultimately, she won’t be an assassin by the end of the story. Her story arc is begging for this change in her character — to set aside her revenge list and find the true Arya (Maisie said a little while back that this is more or less the ending she hopes for). It just remains to be seen how the show will handle this. At least that’s my theory until proven wrong! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    181. Mango,

      Brienne doesn’t really have an arc. She’s a secondary character. Mostly a foil to Jaime, in the show now also a convenient Stark adherent. (And a sometime love interest to Tormund.)

      Now, if I could write the show/books, Brienne and Jaime would both survive. He’d be attainted, of course, but she’s the heir to Tarth so they could go live there – the Sapphire Isle – after the war. Produce many children who become amazing warriors and know all about oaths and vows. So many of them.

      I think Lord Selwyn Tarth of Tarth is unlikely to survive (book stuff), but if he did… Can you imagine a hilariously awkward scene of Brienne coming home from the wars with her boyfriend/husband in tow.

      Brienne: Dad, this is Ser Jaime…
      Selwyn: The Kingslayer!
      Brienne: Er… My husband. I’m having his baby.
      Jaime: Hi…
      Selwyn: !!!? !!!

      That, of course will not happen because Jaime will die, perhaps in taking out Cersei. That twin thing. 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    182. talvikorppi,

      Perhaps at first, yes. But over time, I would think the knowledge would spread and become known (to newer generations at least). You could be right though.. unsung hero. From our perspective, at least the important characters will know.

        Quote  Reply

    183. talvikorppi,

      Not all of it pretty. I agree.

      I think of it a bit of post-traumatic stress suffered (after the Aeyrs killing and the social rejection) that is expressed in a hardening of the better parts of himself to shield himself. Killing the king at 17!

      He grew up in some functional ways but there is arrested development in ways that left him cynical, self-hating and rebellious. I think if Joanna has been alive, she could have helped him heal.

      However, with the loss of his hand (his old identity), he is given a second chance to become the man he was meant to be – a great knight and leader. This process is not linear – he moves forward, he flails around, he slips back – but what a glorious person is emerging.

      I resist any thought that the evolution process is futile.

      Jaime’s story is that we can be better than the shit that we have been; better than the shit that we have seen. There is such a hopeful tale here. I do not want to end in scribbles in a book.

        Quote  Reply

    184. talvikorppi,

      Yes, I would be happy for Tarth for them both. Very happy.

      He lost his hand that was holding Cersei when they were born. The entire story is about then evolving away from each other.

      Cersei was never a good person but she has become worse over time. Jaime has been evolving in the opposite direction – using more of the better parts of himself.

      I think the duality in him gives him a great grasp of the conflicts in the human heart – this is a key quality in someone who leads people.

        Quote  Reply

    185. Mango:
      talvikorppi,

      Not all of it pretty. I agree.

      I think of it a bit of post-traumatic stress suffered (after the Aeyrs killing and the social rejection) that is expressed in a hardening of the better parts of himself to shield himself. Killing the king at 17!

      He grew up in some functional ways but there is arrested development in ways that left him cynical, self-hating and rebellious. I think if Joanna has been alive, she could have helped him heal.

      However, with the loss of his hand (his old identity), he is given a second chance to become the man he was meant to be – a great knight and leader. This process is not linear – he moves forward, he flails around, he slips back –but what a glorious person is emerging.

      I resist any thought that the evolution process is futile.

      Jaime’s story is that we can be better than the shit that we have been; better than the shit that we have seen. There is such a hopeful tale here. I do not want to end in scribbles in a book.

      I think you’ve explained well why Jaime is such an interesting character. He’s the most realistic, relateble one. Very modern in a way.

      Stands out among all those special super-duper fantasy ones.

        Quote  Reply

    186. Mango,

      Jaime’s right hand 1) held onto Cersei’s heel when he was born; 2) slew the king he was sworn to protect; 3) threw Bran Stark out the window.

      Now, maybe losing that hand wasn’t such a bad thing after all, haha.

        Quote  Reply

    187. The Wolves Of Winter:

      A dialogue or scene needs to move the story forward, provide new info, resolve conflicts (like Gendry and BwB) etc etc. None of that would be the case if they would talk about Arya on screen. The only thing they could say about her is what we the audience already know.

      Bingo. What could they have said which would be mere repetitive fanservice? Plus, from a character perspective, each man either has no reason to talk of her, or good reasons not to talk of her.

      Jorah does not know Arya. Gendry liked her a little, then was torn from her by a sorceress. Clegane would not have wanted to speak of any part of his journey with her — it was all trauma and frustrations. Thoros and Beric had to go through another resurrection. Jon thought she was dead, hasn’t seen her since she was a girl, and had no reason to share the few happy memories he has of her, memories of the time before they all left Winterfell and their lives went to sh*t.

      The reason they didn’t mention her is they had no reason to do so.

        Quote  Reply

    188. NinaD,

      Not a plot hole, per se. A plot hole is an inconsistency where there is no logical explanation. There are several reasons why Thorne may have not been able to make it to King’s Landing and a raven had to be sent instead.

        Quote  Reply

    189. Enharmony1625,

      “Ultimately, she won’t be an assassin by the end of the story. Her story arc is begging for this change in her character — to set aside her revenge list and find the true Arya (Maisie said a little while back that this is more or less the ending she hopes for). It just remains to be seen how the show will handle this.”

      _______
      Here’s one way I’ve pictured it. A dying Sandor implores Arya…

      Sandor: “Listen to me. It’s never too late to stop killing people. Start helping people. It’s never too late to come back.”

      Arya (sniffling): “Please don’t die!”

      Sandor: “I’m done. It’s not too late for you though. Stop with the killing, alright?”

      Arya: (nods)

      Sandor (with last breath): “Remember where the heart is.”

        Quote  Reply

    190. Jack Bauer 24,

      Famous spanish youtuber says that he will talk about episode 1 spoilers at 20:00.

      I’m rather skeptical, since HBO has done everything to avoid last season leaks for suddenly this guy to spoil episode 1 a month before the premiere. But many give him credit.

      So avoid reddit (and Spanish got channels) just in case.

        Quote  Reply

    191. talvikorppi,

      Brienne’s arc is about her learning about the struggles and grey areas of oaths and developing from her black and white beliefs about morality, and about her reconciling her identity as a warrior and a woman. She may be a secondary character but she evolves and grows and her own goals to accomplish and lessons to learn.

      Season 2 Brienne was utterly rigid in her views of morality and loyalty. Then she met Jaime and his story about the Mad King forced her to contemplate that the world is not as simplistic as she initially believed. She was able to recognise goodness and honour in a man loathed as an oath breaker, and last season she even yelled ‘fuck loyalty’ because she can now recognise the need to prioritise other things over oaths.

        Quote  Reply

    192. Eonwe:
      Jack Bauer 24,

      Famous spanish youtuber says that he will talk about episode 1 spoilers at 20:00.

      I’m rather skeptical, since HBO has done everything to avoid last season leaks for suddenly this guy to spoil episode 1 a month before the premiere. But many give him credit.

      So avoid reddit (and Spanish got channels) just in case.

      Ok thanks. He was right about when the trailer would drop and the contents of the trailer. Doesn’t he get his info from when the episodes get translated? Maybe the premeire has been submitted. The Red Carpet is in 12 days and the world premiere is in 24 days, so it’s probably that time. I’d rather not get spoiled now.

        Quote  Reply

    193. Jack Bauer 24,

      As far as season 6 & 7 went, he just posted videos talking about spoilers already leaked by awayforthelads in reddit. His “contact” didn´t tell him anything that lads didn´t already told.

      What I find strange is HBO “we´re fine with this guy spoiling the show when we have avoided script leaks for two years”.

      Because we may have seen videos and photos of the sets and shootings. But we don´t know anything about how events are gonna be portrayed.

      Hell, the trailer looks like it was made from footage of episodes 1-3. We don´t know much about 4-6.

      So HBO being careless with someone from the spanish dub team leaking seems strange to me.

        Quote  Reply

    194. Enharmony1625:
      Mango,

      Very good question, indeed. There’s a fairly popular theory that in the books, Arya will be the one to give mercy to Lady Stoneheart. Coming face-to-face with your resurrected zombie mother (looking the way she does) and having to kill her a second time will surely snap Arya out of her assassin ways. Though I’m generally fine with the show cutting out LSH, this moment is so full of symbolism and horrifying and heartbreakingly beautiful all at once that I am a bit sad that we won’t get to see it on screen. (Credit goes to Firannion for first bringing this theory to my attention.)

      Ultimately, she won’t be an assassin by the end of the story. Her story arc is begging for this change in her character — to set aside her revenge list and find the true Arya (Maisie said a little while back that this is more or less the ending she hopes for). It just remains to be seen how the show will handle this. At least that’s my theory until proven wrong!

      I don’t see that Arya needs to snap out of her “assassin ways”. Your post did make me really think about where Arya’s arc will take her though. She’s never just accepted any name from a list and coldly killed someone (like an assassin would do). There had to be a good reason for her to kill someone. Her list is already getting shorter and once she clears it, there will be no reason for her to keep killing (unless someone tries to attack her family). Yes, she took a bit too much pleasure from slitting Walder’s throat. I’ll give you that. But I was taking pleasure too after the way the Frey’s stabbed Robb’s pregnant wife and slit Catelyn’s throat. And he did it while they were under his protection. Old Nan told the story about the pie to all the Stark children. Arya has never been a cold blooded assassin. Once the dead stay dead and her list is checked off, I think Arya will be more than happy to leave her killing behind. I do think she already decided at the Crossroads that helping her family was more important than finishing her list by herself. Thinking back to her dialogue with Sansa in Beyond the Wall. Here are two different scenes when she talks about where she sees herself going….

      Arya: Father used to watch us from up here.
      He wouldn’t say much.
      You probably don’t remember, you were inside knitting all the time.
      I remember.
      One times the boys were shooting arrows with Ser Rodrick, I came out here after and Bran had left his bow behind, just lying on the ground.
      Ser Rodrick would have cuffed him if he saw.
      There was one arrow in the target and with no one around, just like now.
      No one to stop me.
      So I started shooting.
      And every shot I had to go up there and get my one arrow and walk back and shoot it again.
      I wasn’t very good.
      Finally, I’ve hit the bull’s eye.
      Could’ve been the 20th shot.
      Or the 50th.
      I don’t remember.
      But I hit the bull’s eye.
      And I heard this.
      I looked up.
      And he was standing right here, smiling down on me.
      I knew what I was doing was against the rules but he was smiling, so I knew it wasn’t wrong.
      The rules were wrong.
      I was doing what I was meant to be doing and he knew it.

      and later….

      I wanted to be a knight To pick up a sword like father and go off to battle.
      Neither of us got to be the other person, did we? The world doesn’t just let girls decide what they are going to be. But I can now.
      With the faces I can choose.
      I can become someone else.
      Speak in their voice, live in their skin.”

      I think Arya’s arc is actually about how she comes to be OK in her own skin. It’s a journey of self discovery. By the end, she won’t need to pretend to be someone else or wear their skin. She will be able to wear her own and know she is doing what she is supposed to be doing. It doesn’t matter if the rest of the world doesn’t think it’s not right for a girl. Brienne has been an incredible role model for her. Her “No One” arc in Bravos that many complained about was not only about getting amazing assassin training. It was mostly to have her realize that she wasn’t “no one” and she didn’t need to be someone else. She was in fact Arya Stark of Winterfell and she was going home. That’s her arc. She will indeed be the knight she was meant to be and protect her family. She will show loyalty and all of those knightly qualities. She won’t be a cold assassin. That’s not very knightly, and that has never been her. She will be Arya Stark of Winterfell, and the North will remember her throughout the ages.

        Quote  Reply

    195. isildur,

      Totally agree with this. We needed a few more episodes, or even a season, for a relationship like this to develop. But then the entire season had those quick or youll miss it moments. I know they wanted the seasons shorter. But there was much that was lost by cutting them short. Im glad they plan to ease up on the jetpack moments this time around But I also hope they have some moments for character development. With all the extra length. There is a good possibiitiy it will happen.

      And if you criticize the program or the site, feel free But don’t expect that ‘I have the right to comment’ is going to keep other people from commenting right back at you.

        Quote  Reply

    196. I don’t know why people would WANT to know spoilers at this point. We’ve been waiting a year and a half but they can’t wait another three weeks? I ended up reading/hearing a lot of the leaked stuff for S7 and I honestly do believe it hampered my enjoyment a bit when watching. It was completely different when the show was doing book material and spoilers were essentially just confirming that they were doing (this) and (that). I didn’t mind or even liked pap shots of filming and spotting actors at locations, but that’s not knowing exactly what’s being said and what’s happening. I guess I already know why some want spoilers so bad though. It’s impatience. People have little patience for anything anymore.

        Quote  Reply

    197. Clob:
      I don’t know why people would WANT to know spoilers at this point.We’ve been waiting a year and a half but they can’t wait another three weeks?I ended up reading/hearing a lot of the leaked stuff for S7 and I honestly do believe it hampered my enjoyment a bit when watching.It was completely different when the show was doing book material and spoilers were essentially just confirming that they were doing (this) and (that).I didn’t mind or even liked pap shots of filming and spotting actors at locations, but that’s not knowing exactly what’s being said and what’s happening. I guess I already know why some want spoilers so bad though.It’s impatience.People have little patience for anything anymore.

      Exactly. Sunday is 3 weeks from premiere. Might as well wait at this point. We’ve waited 19 months already. I just hope people don’t start posting spoilers here.

        Quote  Reply

    198. The great far out weighs the bad but the criticisms of last season are justified
      The whole magnificent 7 or dirty dozen story was fan service, though welcome but there was obvious flaws,
      gendry going back on his own was unrealistic, why didn’t they all just go? why go the other way, also jon saying tell dany. why would he expect her to come,
      the jet packed raven that pulled it all together, we don’t expect a season of watching a bird fly or he hound eating chicken but there is lots of ways to show time has passed.
      the night king deciding to spear the flying dragon rather than the one sitting down with everyone on it was not logical at all,
      then jon doing his hero thing when he could of got on the dragon , they cant touch him on there, was silly, then into the freezing water out and who shows up but his uncle to the rescue, then he says come with me , no, then goes of, . so whattttttt, why didn’t they both go, and how convenient he shows up to the rescue again, that they really could of done without,
      then the whole chain mystery, where id they get massive chains, if they cant swim how did they get under neath the water put it under the dragon fasten to pull out, that was pushing the plausible too far, when they could of explained it,
      Then you have that whole weird ayra and sansa sillyness, that was poor no question, and still makes no sense,
      it was good but entertaining good, but they did jump the shark with ed sherran, what is that song ? oh its of my new album on i tunes, a smart street wise ayra goes near a group of soldiers just moving along , gets of and sits with them . not in a million years would she ever do that, and it was just bad acting and awkward,
      luckily the rest of that episode made up for it but suspension of belief was ruined,
      little worrying for the final season that they took so many short cuts especially a its the last and its the shortest season but hopefully it will be good, the good does outway the bad, and its minor criticism really,
      though i have a feeling there will be a lot of it’s too dark in the battle criticism to come

        Quote  Reply

    199. Sellsword,

      First I have to say I don’t normally write as much on WotW as the last few days. I’m getting really antsy with only 24 days left and I can’t help myself, and it really is great reading all of the comments.

      There was a bunch packed into your comments! Starting at the end of your comments, I do think episode 3 will require watching in a dark room with a decent TV. The trailer looks amazing when viewed this way. You can see the director’s lighting choices, and it really just requires that you are in as much of a dark theater setting as possible. I almost went out and bought an even better TV, but I think mine will work.

      I’ll just reply to one of your other comments. I didn’t have a problem with Jon’s decision to stay behind. He was totally focused on the mission the entire time he was beyond the wall. He was constantly moving the Wight back farther away. He always had in his mind that he had to complete his mission of bringing back the Wight, even when he couldn’t have thought there was much of chance. He was still dragging the Wight out of reach. Jon’s decision to stay behind was after he saw the Night King. As Jon says, he’s the only one the really “knows” the NK. He could tell that if they waited, the NK would take out Drogon (with Dany and the rest on board). They had to go, and he would hold them off. The mission was what was most important. I don’t think that was stupid. It was brave and Jon had the mission in mind. His life wasn’t important. As KingWatermelon quoted earlier in this thread, Ned says, “But I grew up with soldiers. I learned how to die a long time ago”. That’s even more true for Jon. He actually did die. That’s all I will say for now. I’ll probably be back with more since I seem to be running at the mouth lately with the show so close…. People on WotW are usually really good about not showing spoilers and they will use the spoiler grayed out box, but beware that the gray box does show links through them for some reason.

        Quote  Reply

    200. Tron79,

      I wonder if among the “reveals” in S8, someone [looking at you, Sansa] will figure out that it was Arya who single-handedly wiped out House Frey, and that she is the one who “avenged the Red Wedding” [looking at you, Lord Manderly.]

        Quote  Reply

    201. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      I wonder if among the “reveals” in S8, someone [looking at you, Sansa] will figure out that it was Arya who single-handedly wiped out House Frey, and that she is the one who “avenged the Red Wedding” [looking at you, Lord Manderly.]

      If my memory is correct, the only who ever said anything about the Freys incident was Jaime. He was talking to Cersei and said something like whoever took care of the Freys is no friend of ours. I don’t think Sansa will figure it out. Since Tyrion will be with the group at Winterfell, it could be Tyrion that puts the pieces together. Or even better, it could be Lady Mormont. I could see a scene where Lord Manderly complains about Sansa choosing Arya to complete an important mission. Then Lady Mormont bursts out….”Arya was the one who avenged your son, Lord Manderly, she was THERE to answer the call,,,”

      anyway..we shall see, but it would be nice if she gets credit one day. There won’t be a “Kings Guard” book like Jaime’s, but there should be a Stark family book somewhere, and hopefully Arya’s knightly deeds to defend the North get written up one day. Of course, Bran knows! How could I forget about that.

        Quote  Reply

    202. Tron79,

      Hang on…killing a terrible person, deboning them, grinding their flesh, baking them into a pie to be fed to other fiends…..

      Is that knightly?

        Quote  Reply

    203. Mango,

      Well it was the proper justice for someone who allows their guests to be slaughtered (according to old Nan) and as her dad taught her t “the one who passes the sentence should swing the sword”. So yes I see this as the just sentence for Walder and Arya didn’t have someone else do it.

      Now I can see your point that this was a pretty horrible thing for someone to have to do but it wasn’t really something Arya came up with on her own. It’s the sentence that fit the crime of slaughtering your guests who were under your protection. That’s about as big a crime as you can do. She did enjoy it a bit much. I will give you that. But I was cheering too.

        Quote  Reply

    204. Tron79,

      Well a death sentence is one thing – I saw Ned execute using a sword and Jon using hanging.

      Jon punished people for killing HIM but stayed with what would be considered standard with his society. I suppose he could have ground them up into a pie as well OR lined them up and stabbed each of them repeatedly. Or sliced them up into sushi.

      The majority of viewers loved Arya’s handiwork.
      As a viewer, I found it corny. I watched it in some annoyance. Cringey. Thought it was not a good look for one of my favourite characters. But I got past it and wish Arya well.

        Quote  Reply

    205. Mango,

      I can see that you were probably feeling she was losing part of her humanity even if what she did was justified and you had a hard time seeing her go down that path. Tyrion said something similar to Dany when she chose to burn father tarley and dickon. She had other choices and better choices according to Tyrion. So I do see your point with Arya. Maybe you are trying to be Arya’s Tyrion and advise her so she doesn’t go totally dark on the world. I think she already has come back some during season 7. Her decision to return home was a huge move in that direction.

        Quote  Reply

    206. talvikorppi,

      You know, the sad thing is that in May we will find out that we have spent years watching a children’s story.

      You know that tale – A pretty princess with magic gifts fights to recover her family’s kingdom. She meets and falls in love with a dark handsome secret prince. Together they vanquish all the evil opposition. Then rule together justly over adoring subjects.

        Quote  Reply

    207. Tron79,

      The thing is… Arya/faux Walder may as well have left a calling card. She intentionally left a witness who heard her tell the condemned Freys ~em>”but.. you didn’t slaughter every one of the Starks”, then peeled her mask off and calmly told Walder’s child wife “When people ask you what happened here, tell them: The North remembers; tell them: Winter came for House Frey.”

      Even though Walder’s child wife was probably in shock, I figured at some point her fantastical story about a face-changing girl impersonating Walder who condemned the Freys for cutting Catelyn Stark’s throat and butchering pregnant Talisa, and then left with parting words based on House Stark tag-lines, would reach HPNN (Hot Pie News Network) and rebroadcast via travelers to WF.

      Nosy Sansa had found Arya’s face-mask satchel in S7e6 and Arya explained to her exactly what the faces enabled her to do. Sansa also knew Arya had trained to be a FM assassin.

      I had hoped Sansa would put two and two together and realize it was Arya who avenged the Red Wedding massacre; and that Sansa, instead of running to LF, would be high-fiving her little sister.

        Quote  Reply

    208. Mango:
      Ten Bears,

      Lord Manderley was correct.

      Avenge vs Take revenge.

      But we can disagree and both carry on calmly.

      ____
      I don’t understand. How was Lord Manderly correct, and what are we disagreeing about?

      As much as I enjoyed the KitN coronation scene in S6e10, I just didn’t think Manderly’s declaration that “Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding” was quite accurate. By the time of the Battle of the Bastards, Tywin and Roose were already dead, and Ramsay Bolton wasn’t complicit in the Red Wedding. Did Jon mete out justice on any of the Red Wedding perpetrators or conspirators? I don’t think so.

        Quote  Reply

    209. cos alpha:
      Tron79,

      Arya had the same smile on her face as Sansa had, while Ramsay was eaten by his hounds.
      I was cheering both times.

      ___
      Me too. 😊

      Between Sansa’s parting words to Ramsay Bolton in S6e9 – “Your words will disappear. Your house will disappear. Your name will disappear”, and Arya’s parting words in the S7e1 cold open – “Winter came for House Frey”, the sisters should collaborate on a duet to knock “Rains of Castamere” off the Billboard charts.

        Quote  Reply

    210. Ten Bears:
      Tron79,

      The thing is… Arya/faux Walder may as well have left a calling card. She intentionally left a witness who heard her tell the condemned Freys ~em>”but.. you didn’t slaughter every one of the Starks”, then peeled her mask off and calmly told Walder’s child wife “When people ask you what happened here, tell them: The North remembers; tell them: Winter came for House Frey.”

      Even though Walder’s child wife was probably in shock, I figured at some point her fantastical story about a face-changing girl impersonating Walder who condemned the Freys for cutting Catelyn Stark’s throat and butchering pregnant Talisa, and then left with parting words based on House Stark tag-lines, would reach HPNN (Hot Pie News Network) and rebroadcast via travelers to WF.

      Nosy Sansa had found Arya’s face-mask satchel in S7e6 and Arya explained to her exactly what the faces enabled her to do. Sansa also knew Arya had trained to be a FM assassin.

      I had hoped Sansa would put two and two together and realize it was Arya who avenged the Red Wedding massacre; and that Sansa, instead of running to LF, would be high-fiving her little sister.

      I get your points. The story of the North coming for house Frey did at least get to Kings Landing, since Jaime heard it. But it didn’t sound like the news about the Faceless Man part made it to Kings Landing. I don’t think Jaime said anything about how it happened. It’s possible Walder’s child wife (do we know her name btw?) was just too shocked to believe the part of the face peeling or she figured no one would believe her about that part. Or maybe she thought she was a Witch. I could see a story about a Witch from the North developing. But LF definitely didn’t know about the story, since he would have been the first to tell Sansa how dangerous Arya would be to Sansa’s safety. Of course Bran knows and may just be the “spoiler” and blurt it out before Sansa has a chance to figure it out. Since the pace of season 8 sounds like it won’t be as rushed as 7, it’s possible they will have some time for Sansa to hear more about the story and put it together with the faces she found, so she can give that high five.

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    211. Ten Bears,

      Just a minor difference:

      For the northern people, the main impact of the Red Wedding was the loss of the political control of the north from the Starks to the Boltons. This has impact on them beyond the personal losses to the Stark family. Sansa and Jon avenged that event that by winning BoB and retaking Stark lordship. This is why avenged was shouted when Jon was declared king. Yes, the main parties responsible for the deaths were Tywin and Roose and they were already dead. Freys as were also guilty but they did not hold the North.

      Killing your family for killing mine is revenge. Avenge extends to redistribution/restoration as well. I think this is why Manderley said avenged with regard to Sansa and Jon.

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    212. Mango,

      Well, can we agree on this?

      When Lord Manderly bellowed, “He is the White Wolf! The King in the North!”, there should’ve been a cut to Ghost next to Jon at the dais?

      I don’t care if they showed a two-second snippet of Ghost napping. Or better yet, when everybody raises their swords and start chanting “The King in the North! The King in the North!”, have Ghost wake up briefly from his nap, look around for a few seconds, yawn, and go back to sleep.

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    213. Wolfish,

      it simply doesn’t strike me as realistic that among all these people who had spent a great deal of time with her, not a single conversation arose out of it. That’s what really made S7 feel rushed to me—the dearth of long, realistic conversations.

      I know- I was expecting them all to eventually reaize they knew arya. That would have taken good part of a night. Missed opportunity, or maybe just not enough time

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    214. Mango,

      its a fantasy show, not real life. We have had that conversation many times about Arya and her actions, good discussions that covered the range of feelings ideas and examples. But when is said and done, this is a fantasy show, with magic, with evil, in a world with no real justice (or any as Tyrion says); May as well enjoy and cheer when someone makes justice for themselvex

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    215. ash,

      I had a chuckle on your advice that it is a fantasy show. All this time, I was believing the dragons were real.

      Yes, I can appreciate why people cheered. However, I am not that reactive to TV in terms of cheering and crying. And my values on some matters are fairly deep. So for example, I would never cheer even when a very very evil woman is raped as punishment….( I am not suggesting that you or others would.)

      I do think I make lots of space for values different from mine, particularly in dramas in a different period that now. For example, the use of the death penalty in GOT does not bother me given the period. In real life, it does.

      On the points we are discussing, within the story from a character viewpoint with both Sansa and Arya, I was concerned for them. Well, mainly for Arya. The mode of killing – it is not something that I think Ned would do.

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    216. Mango,

      I’m not sure if you heard one of Maisie’s Interviews. I think it was one of the recent HBO ones where she recollects the history of Arya. She described the stabbing of Ser Meryn Trant. After saying it out loud how she stabbed both eyes etc she even said that what she did was pretty horrible stuff wasn’t it. I don’t recall her exact quote. She chuckled a little about it but after hearing herself say what she did out loud she had to say that it was pretty brutal. So I get what you’re saying. It’s hard to say it’s ok to get joy from such brutality. I guess for me I get more bothered by seeing nameless killings on tv and movies and computer games. When characters just shoot up the “bad guys” it really bothers me. It desensitizes people imo. That’s why I loved Arya’s scene with the Lannister soldiers. It’s really important to point out these soldiers are real people with kids back home and lives. When the dragons burn all of those Lannisters I really felt for them and so did Tyrion. They aren’t just nameless helmets. One of the latest star war movies (the force awakens) had a storm trooper character who removed his helmet. He was the first storm trooper to remove his helmet and he had a name. I could talk about this for hours. I am really glad GOT had that Lannister campfire scene with Arya.

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    217. Tron79,

      I really like the way you said all of this….especially about the stormtrooper – “he had a name”. Such a powerful statement. I think that was the point of the meal with the Lannisters soldiers – they are people with hopes and fears etc. like anyone else.

      Yes, your comments capture a lot of important thoughts about our common humanity and life. We have to pay attention that we do not become desensitized about taking lives and hurting others. As for the burning of the men, it was just awful.

      No, I did not hear Maisie’s interview. Thanks for sharing it. She seemed to have some sensible reflections on what occurred.

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    218. I don’t understand fans hangups with time jumps, geez, it’s part of filmmaking. You people I hope don’t complain of them in movies, otherwise a 2.5 hr film will be like 5 hours.

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    219. talvikorppi,

      I’ve had a super-busy week and am finally catching up. Yes to all of this!!! Jaime’s dream and all its meanings (of which Brienne is only a part, and as you accurately write, he reveals nothing beyond that) is one of my favorite passages, one that I kept re-reading when I read the books. I fear terribly for both of them; Jaime seems destined to die (“in the arms of the woman I love”), but Brienne is in peril as well (“Who wants to die defending a Lannister?”). I’m both breathlessly anticipating the final season and shitting my britches over it.

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    220. Mango,

      I wrote at length about Arya’s killing of the Freys in a couple of posts shortly after the episode aired, but alas, I’m not home right now and can’t look for them. Also, I’m full of Dornish red and incapable of writing anything cogent right now. But in response to your comment…

      I always viewed Arya’s revenge on the Freys as totally understandable from the point of view of a (14-year-old?) girl whose views of justice have been shaped by 1) Nan’s stories and 2) the common folk with whom she has spent her adolescence. Remember, from the very first scene we saw her in, it was clear that Arya, as a girl, was not being groomed for leadership; her brothers were. She was not formally taught about “honor,” imbued with the idea that “the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword,” or taken to see the execution of a deserter as Bran was. All Arya’s ideas about justice would have been derived from 1) the fairy tales she was told (such as the story of the Rat King, which we can logically deduce she had heard as a child), and 2) her own experience in the world, which has shown her, time and again, that the “king’s justice” is no justice at all (the deaths of Micah and her father are seared into her mind, as are the horrors she witnessed at Harrenhal). So how does a grieving, rage-filled, hormonal, orphaned adolescent survive, physically and psychologically, when confronted with the fact that people like Cersei Lannister and Gregor Clegane will keep getting away with horrific crimes because of their status, deceit, and brutal strength, while people like innocent Micah and honorable Ned die because they got in someone’s way for some stupid reason?

      I’ve always thought that unlike Brienne, Arya’s worldview was shaped not by the codes of “honor” that condemn Jaime for having killed a man who would have gleefully incinerated half a million people, but rather, by the codes of honor she learned from Nan’s stories and her time with the small folk. And her literal interpretation of the story of the Rat King is exactly what we should have expected from a girl who knows that there IS no such thing as “the king’s justice.” There is only the justice one takes for oneself, according to laws so old no one knows who authored them.

      Apologies for my long-windednesss.

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    221. I must admit beyond the wall could have been so much better Given everyone is congregated in the North at the start of S8 I would hope very few time skips apart from potentially towards the end of the story.

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    222. Wolfish,

      I fully understand how long posts occur. They just sneak up and mugg you.

      I see the point you are making – she would have reduced responsibility because of her youth and some influences in the tales from Old Nan.

      Primal behavior in human often leads us to enjoy severe violence and use of power. Power and the exercise of power over others is thrilling. (Lots of fans enjoy power and violent behaviour vicariously through fictional characters by identifying with them in stories.)

      Two reservations on Arya: (i) Her parents had at least 7-9 years to help her tame/manage her primal urges. She was still young so maybe the lessons had not settled in properly yet. These did not have to be about leadership. Even stopping an infant with 4 teeth from biting a sibling is a lesson about restrain from/use of violence.

      (ii) She was training to be an assassin. I do not know how assassins are trained but I speculate that stealth and “economy” in killing are important. None of her killings seemed to resemble the 3 precision strikes by Jaquen. Maybe she dropped out too early.

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    223. Mango:
      Wolfish,
      Two reservations on Arya: (i) Her parents had at least 7-9 years to help her tame/manage her primal urges. She was still young so maybe the lessons had not settled in properly yet. These did not have to be about leadership. Even stopping an infant with 4 teeth from biting a sibling is a lesson about restrain from/use of violence.

      Besides the teachings/stories of Old Nan, some of the biggest influences on Arya in the story are Yoren (primarily show-only), Jaqen, and Sandor — particularly after Ned’s death. She’s obviously enormously traumatised after that event and all of these “mentors” teach her about revenge, killing, and the brutality of the world. Yet it’s Ned’s teachings that win out against Jaqen when she refuses to kill Lady Crane and calls BS on the HoB&W. It’s Ned’s teachings that makes her stand up for innocents and commoners (the wagon merchant Sandor wanted to kill). She’s always chosen family over revenge when faced with he choice. So despite all the dark influences she’s had, her father’s lessons are still so strong in her. One of the many reasons I find her such a fascinating and wonderfully written character! 🙂

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    224. Enharmony1625,

      Yes, I can see what you are saying. It captures her development well.

      I have some difficulties with Ned’s choices/decisions. (I know that is not common among the GOT faithful.) However, he had some strong admirable values that would useful to pass to his children. And Arya did show that she has learned from him. (Maybe not how to debone another human though.)

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    225. Mango:
      Enharmony1625,

      Yes, I can see what you are saying. It captures her development well.

      I have some difficulties with Ned’s choices/decisions. (I know that is not common among the GOT faithful.) However, he had some strong admirable values that would useful to pass to his children. And Arya did show that she has learned from him. (Maybe not how to debone another human though.)

      See, my assumption was always that she’d killed the Frey sons, then chopped off a couple of fingers, and stuck them in a pie. Not taken over what you would think would be an always busy kitchen, tortured them, put them through an actual meat grinder, and made them into a manwich spread.

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    226. Pigeon,

      Ahaha!

      I may be less aware of the menu options when handling human cadavers.

      So maybe a regular steak and kidney pie with fingers as flavouring?

      I see. How do you select the finger though? Thumb or pinky? Do you debone it? You prolly should as the rest of the pie would not have bones, right? What pie has bones in it? How would get it in the pie before the cook puts the pastry top on if you are not in in charge of that pie making shift? Never made a pie myslef…Perhaps some assasin like stealth?

      I suppose it took some planning.

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    227. Mango,

      I can see her sneaking into the kitchen and tossing a few digits in the mix before baking. Poke em down a bit. 😆 I bet she just left the bones in, as she DID want Walder to notice it.

      I gotta stop chewing my nails.

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    228. Mango:
      Ten Bears,

      Just a minor difference:

      For the northern people, the main impact of the Red Wedding was the loss of the political control of the north from the Starks to the Boltons. This has impact on them beyond the personal losses to the Stark family. Sansa and Jon avenged that event that by winning BoB and retaking Stark lordship. This is why avenged was shouted when Jon was declared king.Yes, the main parties responsible for the deaths were Tywin and Roose and they were already dead. Freys as were also guilty but they did not hold the North.

      Killing your family for killing mine is revenge. Avenge extends to redistribution/restoration as well. I think this is why Manderley said avenged with regard to Sansa and Jon.

      The Northerners were bereft at the slaughter of multiple generations of men from their families at the Red Wedding… and they blamed the Starks for much of that. The shows focus was on what went on inside the hall, but outside, all the soldiers/bannermen that traveled with Robb were killed. Loss of political control was only the aftermath at which point, there was hardly anyone left to kill, and it could not have eclipsed the initial mass killing.

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    229. I’m late to the party so to speak in commenting on this, so apologies if someone already said what I’m about to say.

      Honestly, I just wish that the writers/producers would admit that they had to come up with extra episodes to stretch the end over two seasons because what they needed to film was too costly for HBO to support for just one season.

      I don’t get why more people don’t realize that most of Eastwatch through The Dragon and the Wolf is a detour. That’s why Beyond the Wall (and much of The Dragon and The Wolf) feel out of place with the general narrative. It literally is filler. High quality filler, but filler nonetheless.

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