The Dragonpit was one of the most exciting settings in season seven, not least of all because it reunited many characters after a long absence and had many others meet for the first time. The tense climactic parley therein may also have something to do with it. That’s why it was so wonderful to learn that the Roman ruins of Itálica in Seville, Spain, would be revisited in season eight, and so soon, too. Today, the news get even better, as we just got word that filming will begin sooner than expected—and run for much longer!
Though last we heard the archaeological site would be inaccessible from May 3 to 18, pointing to about two weeks of shooting, we now know this wasn’t quite the whole story. As Los Siete Reinos reports, via EFE, the shoot is being “brought forward and extended”: filming in the Roman ruins will begin on April 23 and continue until May 19 (though the site will remain closed to dismantle the set until May 28, which is a strangely long time to clear out.) That’s almost a four weeks shoot, four times the time that was spent in Itálica for season seven. And that Dragonpit sequence wasn’t a little thing, if you recall!
Work to turn this location into the Dragonpit is underway and will be finished just before shooting begins. Though much of the focus may be on the amphitheater, it can now be deduced that it will extend beyond it, just as it did in “The Dragon and the Wolf.”
This will be the longest shoot in Seville. The only time production lasted longer in Spain was at Malpartida, for the battle in “Spoils of War.” That’s quite a comparison! We don’t know what will take place in these new Dragonpit scenes, but it must be something big, whether it’s in screen time or size, as it’s going to quadruplicate the production time of the season seven sequence, which accounted for more than 25 minutes of the finale.
For those expecting a battle or a ceremony of some kind (whether it’s a wedding, a coronation, or something else), I’m afraid that’s very unlikely, as there has been no call for extras at all. Which makes this question all the more intriguing: what is happening in the Dragonpit that will take so long to film but won’t require anyone but the cast?
As I said before… calling it now: the demise of the dragons after they dance 😬
Hodor
Apollo,
I hope so! There’s definitely been some foreshadowing for it in S7 and would be much more epic to watch than cleganebowl.
No extras at all?
RIP dragons.. ;(
When they just need a handful of guys, like the guards at the dragonpit last time, there is no need for a call for extras, as the Spanish subcontractor will just hire professional extras directly. So “no extras” may not be technically correct, but there won’t be an army of them; not without a casting call.
Sounds like something involving a lot of special effects, but without a lot of people. Can’t imagine talking scenes taking so long. So yeah, dragon fight seems likely.
…,
No way the last of the dragons go out with (yet another) scorpion or spear. That’d be such a huge anticlimax as well as overly repetitive. They’ll go out in a blaze of glory, so that can only mean one thing.
That photo reminds me, I guess Staz Nair as Qhono is back?
That guy is supposedly the Dothraki ‘general’ now. I think he had one line last season?
The Unsullied have a speaking lead character but season 7 even Qhono does not feature much. Also thought a female Dothraki from season 6 would be around in S7 but that did not happen.
Now im curious what this will be!
I’m not going to jump to the idea of some dragon battle. For one thing, Itálica is much smaller than the book Dragonpit. Drogon’s wings alone damn near spread across the entire thing when taking off after dropping off Daenerys. In other words, it would be a pretty lame fight to restrict to such a small area.
It also doesn’t seem likely that they’d chain the dragons into the area. Daenerys wouldn’t do it. That means that someone would have to incapacitate a dragon and rather than kill it where it lies, they manage to load it up on something, keep it from roasting them and then haul it to the pit to chain it up. Really, why take it there? Would they not kill a dragon immediately with their first and best opportunity? It’s no longer a massive domed structure that can keep dragons caged. Symbolism doesn’t seem worth the effort. An execution of a dragon scene also wouldn’t take weeks to film.
My thinking is that they’re going to use the structure and surrounding grounds for multiple scenes rather than just one long or big scene. It could be used as a base in preparation for whomever it is that attacks the city. couple more meetings, an execution of a person, a small but formal ceremony… all of those things
I can see one option/idea that involves images we had on the site a while back:
I don’t care for that idea so even I’m not going with that. The hostage bit has already been used enough for me. 🙂
My best guess would be a sequence along the lines of season seven’s, as well as many other little scenes, the kind that used to take place on the gardens.
Not a dragon battle just for the reason Clob stated. Its far too small. Drogon is basically the size of half of it. Dragons don’t box each other.
Must be a series of shots…. I still think ultimately there will be a coronation there but what else Im not sure.
If they start shooting on the 23rd, that means we could see actors arriving in Seville sometime next week.
I guess first they will film some smaller scenes on the roads and gardens and then a big scene on the amphitheater.
Cleganebowl get hype
It should be really telling and interesting when filming starts to see which cast members are turning up in Spain.
Would it really take two weeks though if it was a dragon battle or dragon demise? Most of that of course would be VFX done at a later date and inside a studio. I admit to not knowing the intricacies of how to shoot around a green screen the proper way, but two weeks seems a long time for something that would be, what, 85-90% VFX? They haven’t needed that much time in the past in an exterior shoot that heavily involved VFX dragons.
Can’t rule out the possibility… I can’t get hyped for two large, slow moving guys clashing massive greatswords together for five minutes with an obvious outcome though. Just not a big deal to me.
The Great Sept of Baelor being gone, maybe the Dragonpit is the go-to place for executions now? With Cersei in charge, nearly everybody would be on her list.
It’ll be a dance-off for the Iron Throne, duh!
I bet Euron just turns it into his throne ‘room,’ proclaims himself king and talks over anybody that tries to disagree.
So… that will be a Sansa chapter in the books then? 😉
Clob,
Probably, but we all know that Northerners have no rhythm, so I don’t think she’d stand a chance anyway.
Clob,
I really don’t understand the hype for cleganebowl. The Mountain is basically a zombie and the Hound seems to be there for “comedic” value, two characters that are kinda just there fighting? I’d hope it’s something more interesting than that and something more interesting than what we saw in season 7.
Intriguing! It could be something more substantial than my first guesses.
I don’t want to speculate much, like to keep an open and fairly unsullied mind.
Hahaha, thanks for the laugh, it’s such a Euron thing to do!
Private John Tesh concert.
Pigeon,
Burn em alive, feed em to the dogs, stab em, decapitate em, poison em, but a John Tesh concert? Now that’s just cruel and unusual punishment right there.
Mr Derp,
I certainly hope so
Out of curiosity, hypothetically, what would the Army of the Dead do next if they won?
Say they successfully kill all of the men, women, and children in Westeros/Essos/whereveros. What would their next move be? Would they just fall back to their icy home north of the wall and leave everything abandoned or would they make their own claim to the throne with a desire to rule?
Maybe it’s a bit of a battle which only features prominent cast members — a “final boss fight” to borrow video game terminology. The logistics of making this happen seem fairly convoluted, though, so while I think it could be neat it’s hardly my #1 guess.
A collection of smaller scenes as well as something of a size with Season 7’s sounds probable. Cleganebowl being one of those scenes is also doable if that’s where we’re heading with them.
Clob,
I don’t think the DP will be the site of any dragon fight, for the reasons you mentioned: it’s way too small.
But they can easily fall from the sky mortally wounded (or take refuge there as a nesting area to recover) and die on the ruins. Such scenes wouldn’t require extras, but certain cast members and a fair bit of dressing up the arena (to cover the pit again as well as add additional props). They took several weeks to prepare the site before.
Dany even mentions in S7 that the DP was the beginning of the end the dragons and her family, and states that dragons are not slaves (except for a certain blue eyed one), so there may well be some foreshadowing there. In any case, you only need to look at previous events there to see the potential foreshadowing elements. Although that could equally mean it could be site for burning thousands of the dead 💀
I guess we’ll be able to predict more when we see who comes to Seville. That’ll be impossible to hide after the hysteria last time.
…,
Totally agree. Are people assuming that all the main characters will assemble here for a fight to the death between the Clegane brothers? When they could simply meet in battle in KL or on the steps of the Red Keep? Who would even be invested in a spectacle like this, given that they are facing utter annihilation? It makes zero sense from a show perspective if you ask me.
Hmmm….I don’t think I really see any kind of dragon death/fight taking place in such a constrained location, especially if there have been no green screens erected. I can envision some type of trial by combat, but not necessarily CleganBowl, which I love the idea but may be a little fan service-y. Perhaps it would be a trial to determine the fate of a character?
Patrick wrote an article about a scenario in which Cersei goes into exile. Maybe there’s a trial by combat to determine whether she lives or dies? Or it could be something else entirely.
Presumably they need some time to prepare the site, so is it safe to assume it’s 23 Apr- 3 May for prep (or thereabouts), two weeks for filming and the remainder for clearing the site?
Quinton O’Connor,
Please, no Gleganebowl!
For one, I feel it’d be a retrograde step for Sandor. Just think of his scene with Arya, when she offers to clean and sew his wound and he, for once shown without his armour tells her his story, how his brother abused him. It’s one of my all time favourite scenes. Then his scenes with Brother Ray, him burying rabbit stew Sally and her father… OK, his encounter with frankergregor at the Dragonpit could be construed as a challenge to his brutal older brother, but it could also be construed as Sandor realising whatever his brother now is, is worse than death and taunting him. I dunno, maybe Sandor could finish frankengregor as part of a general battle, not as personal revenge (I’m not big on revenge, one of the reasons I’m not liking Arya much at the moment).
I think the idea of Gleganebowl arose mostly from the books, where it’s hinted the Hound is dead but Sandor might be alive, doing repentance in a religious community, and the newest KG, Ser Robert Strong, is indeed Gregor Clegane as “healed” (or reanimated) by Quiburn. In the books, Cersei’s trial by the Faith is still impending, the readers’ idea being she demands a trial by combat and names Ser Robert Strong (frankengregor) as her champion, the Faith then names “the Gravedigger” of Quiet Isle, a.k.a. Sandor Clegane. That has always seemed a bit far-fetched to me, and that particular boat has sailed in the show.
“Cleganebowl” has, of course, now become a meme and an inside joke in the fan community. Perhaps you were joking as well.
Dark Sister,
A royal decree by Tommen already outlawed trial by combat. I can’t see Cersei reinstating this (especially after the last one almost resulted in Tyrion getting off). Also, any potential future monarch wouldn’t rely on such an unpredictable (and inherently unjust) means of trial. Jon would insist on a trial/beheading/exile and Dany by burning.
Dunno. Just chill?
I’ll get me coat.
It will be a dragon fight. Daenerys vs Jon.
Jon MIGHT love her but he knows damn well she wouldn’t be suited to ruling unless it’s totalitarian. Which is entirely against everything Jon believes in…
If they win it would have to be at the very, very end because there really isn’t a story to tell after that… * without beginning an entirely new story. The NK wouldn’t enslave and rule the remaining living in Westeros. The living that don’t flee overseas would eventually be found and die. Westeros would just be a wasteland and the WW and wight would just hibernate again I guess…
* if the NK were to still have Viserion at that ending he could fly to Essos and do the same…
Apollo,
I think that decree blew up with the Sparrows and Sept of Baelor 😂And I can definitely see Cersei reinstating it, especially with the Mountain by her side. But yes, perhaps there would be a royal bbq/ execution that could take place there.
Arya sterk,
She’d be a fine queen of Westeros once she would actually be queen. The way it’s setting up she will have had to earn it rather than simply take it. Once in the seat she wouldn’t be flipping a culture on its head, like the slave cities.
Apollo,
I can see Cersei totally being on-board for a trial by combat, especially if it is her trial by combat and she still has The Mountain. I mean, this is exactly what she was planning before Tommen outlawed it… As long as Cersei sees herself winning (and having The Mountain, how can you not?) then I believe she would definitely take this route, as it seems the easiest way to get out of a trial.
That being said, I can’t see a situation where Cersei gets captured and is forced into a trial by combat. I see her dying before anyone could capture her, and if anyone did get close enough I would assume The Mountain would just take care of them. Unless he dies, which at that point Cersei wouldn’t end up choosing trial by combat anyway.
Quinton O’Connor,
NK hijacks FrankenGregor, or Cersei sics Frankengregor on “that little animal” Arya and “that whore” Sansa. Either way, Sandor comes to their defense = CleganeBowl.
Not that I’d be thrilled with the fan servicing. It’s just that Sandor fighting Gregor out of hate or vengeance would be a regression for Sandor. Defense of “his girls”? A different story.
Jaehaerys,
I would agree. Cersei is not going to surrender or put herself in a position where others will get to decide her fate. That ship sailed after her walk of shame, if it hadnt already before.
IF there is any further trial by combats, then I personally think it’d be involving the Mountain vs. Arya, or maybe Arya wearing someone else’s face or something like that. Meh, I dunno.
Mr Derp,
Very good question, Mr. Derp. I would assume their next move would be to repopulate the Earth with White Walkers… although they kind of messed this plan up with only taking Craster’s sons and not any daughters. Perhaps at this point the Night King would turn one living woman into a white walker for this reason, and something akin to the legend of the Night’s King in the books would happen.
Maybe the Night King would try to turn himself back into a human by removing the dragonglass… but this would assume that he fulfilled his “goal” (whatever that is) and has no other reason to want to be a White Walker.
One thing I am pretty sure would happen would be that the Night King would kill off his own army of the dead. Don’t want some unknown power turning his army against him, to be sure.
If there was a trial by combat and Cersei is either the prosecutor or defendant she would choose Gregor of course…
What I would find just the BEST would be all those viewers screaming out “Cleganebowl,” and then have the other side choose Arya as champion instead. I would laugh and laugh… Then we could watch her go like an even-smaller-Viper all over his ass, but actually win easily (because she’s not that much of a talker). 🙂
Clob,
Jaehaerys,
But again, that’s on the assumption that Cersei’s pulling the strings, which I doubt she would be. Also- Jon and Dany (and most certainly Sansa) would never give her a potential way of avoiding justice (especially after she betrays then in S8).
And as Mr Derp pointed out, Cersei would die before being captured. She made that very clear in S2 as well as S7.
Euron/Cersei wedding reception?
I must admit I’m unclear what this scene would be and why they would need to film so long there now. Given the shooting time we have to assume it’s going to be a big scene involving main cast and it’s likely to be one of the later episodes knowing the majority of the cast have just headed North.
Yes, I think her death will play out much the way her arc did in The Battle of Blackwater, only she’ll have to go through with suicide this time rather than Tywin saving the day for her.
Except, I think it’ll be wildfire instead of poison.
Man, I feel bad for whomever reaches Cersei in the Red Keep. They’ll fight through all the battling going on just to end up being blown up as soon as they reach Cersei. Cough *Jaime*, cough.
At some point soon I’m going to rewatch all 7 seasons just to try and figure out how season 8 will play out. With the heavy amount of foreshadowing that goes on in this show, I wonder if the ending can be discerned simply by rewatching previous episodes and picking up on the foreshadowing clues.
Clob,
I’d be on board with that!
As another Commenter eloquently stated [sorry, I forgot who]: No one expects No One – until it’s too late. 👸🏻
I wonder if one of the DP scenes will show the rest of Tyrion and Cersei’s conversation that we didn’t get to see from the last episode, but I doubt it.
I’ve wondered this before…I picture the Night King standing amongst frozen rubble, no people remaining…thousands of wights looking goofily at him, and thinking “Oh well shit….”
Massive board game tournaments?
____________________
“Quiet as a shadow…Quick as a snake.”
Pigeon,
Ghastly thought: NK would herd about 2,000 humans into a breeding farm to crank out Baby Walkers, with a few more docile humans caged in a petting zoo.
Clob,
Ugh. I’m so fed up with Arya super ninja assassin warrior princess fantasies.
She has some special skills, to be sure, but she doesn’t have superpowers, and she has flaws, she’s human. I think her story arc would be much more interesting if she lets go of her childish anger, thirst for vengeance, black-and-white morality, and matures to someone who sees and accepts the grey, sees the bigger picture beyond her childish bubble of personal grudges and revenge. Realises her earlier absolutism “my way or the high way” isn’t the only approach – her beloved Jon could teach her a few lessons about compromise – is Arya to go against Jon on this matter?
I think it’d be far more satisfying if Arya lets go of her anger and thirst for selfish revenge and begins to work constructively towards the common good and something positive in the future (there are hints towards this in her last S7 scenes). She could become a valuable asset in the ultimate fight, though I doubt on a battlefield (she’s a very young woman of small stature), but she has at least some archery skills and she has skills in close-quarter stealth killing. (What would Ned think? It’s not exactly “honourable” as most Westerosi nobles would see it. Maybe that’s another hint for us viewers/readers to question the whole Westerosi code of honour. Jaime’s story being the main one.)
I dunno. I used to like Arya a lot, but when she focussed so much on revenge, it put me right off her. I tried to reason that she’s a traumatised child but her cold-bloodedness and even glee in killing, mass killing, I found disturbing. I hope she has now put that part of her firmly behind herself, now that she is at long last at home and among family.
My bet is still on a dragon vs dragon battle happening there after a huge aerial fight grounds them. What better place?
talvikorppi,
So… you’d rather her pick up the sewing needle and stop being a fighter/warrior/knight that she desired to be as a girl and has trained to become as she’s grown? She doesn’t need to be portrayed as a strong female while only using a sewing needle, to go back to last week’s discussion. Would it be such a terrible thing to see Brienne in the fight? What’s the difference beyond just size? Arya has actually had more diverse training than Brienne ever has. Go ahead and be “fed up” with it, but she is suppose to be a trained and seasoned fighter (with more kills to her name in the books than on the show – outside of the Frey party).
From my perspective she set aside her revenge list as soon as she turned for Winterfell. The weirdo story then had less to do with revenge by her than it was about making sure Sansa wasn’t betraying the family. Sansa passed the sentence on LF. I don’t think any fighting she would/will do the rest of the way is going to be about revenge, but survival.
I am currently on S4 now of my rewatch, I am doing one a month to get me through until filming has finished. Amazing how much foreshadowing there is when you watch them again and also how noticeably great S4 is in the gran scheme of things.
I know what you mean, but,
In the books she did not kill the whole Frey clan!
Jon Snowed,
Season 4 is my favorite season by far. So many great storylines for so many great characters, though, I wasnt a big fan of Dany’s arc in season 4. Everything else was just the bees knees.
I edited to mention that. Of course we don’t know yet if she does do something like that at some point, but it probably won’t be exactly or with the Frey men.
Which dragons and which dragonriders would you then envision? Just Dany/Drogon and NK/Viserion, or some hitherto unknown third dragonrider on Rheagal in the mix for either side or their own? Who? How? What side?
It’s a fair guess Jon could end up riding Rheagal, the dragon named after his father. I just hope he takes better care of this special pet than he did of his previous one, the extra-Stark special direwolf, poor Ghost – last seen rehomed with Dolorous Edd.
talvikorppi,
Perhaps no riders at all but simply dragon vs dragon. Shrug?
I do think a better place for such a fight would be on an open field though. Two grown dragons stuffed into that little pit is too restrictive… and they’d have even more cgi to do to show them smashing the ruins to ruins in the process.
Mr Derp,
I’m going to print out all of the transcripts. Then I’m going to review to see which comments characters have made that haven’t come to fruition but could. An example: Sam telling Jon he read about how to deliver a baby when discussing Gilly’s pregnancy. I’ll give it to every writer on this show – nearly every word spoken means more than the actual word. When Theon returns home for the first time Yara says to him “make your choice, and make it quickly. Our ships sail with or without you.” When she went to rescue him he had to make a quick decision, in that moment Yara had to convince him to leave right then. The ship was going to sail (Ramsey was coming), so Theon needed to make his choice.
So many scenes have double meanings like this. So I’m going to look for the ones that we’ve forgotten about.
Clob,
In an ideal situation, I would love for the final battle, including dragon-on-dragon fights and the full on Battle for the Dawn, to happen at the Trident. It would be the perfect place for the final showdown, in my opinion.
But I would also like to see a *successful* attack on King’s Landing, and I can’t see why there would be a White Walker attack on King’s Landing and then the final battle happening North of that. And after all of the filming news this season, I do resign that the final battle will take place in King’s Landing. I just think it would be awesome to finally see a battle at the Trident; I expect we’ll get a battle in the books, at least.
Speaking of… how about the nearby Isle of Faces. I still have to question if that isn’t the actual destination the NK is aiming for, considering that is where The Pact was made between the First Men and the CotF.
Clob,
I really don’t understand why people would assume that the climactic battle between dragons will be them scrambling over the ruins of the DP.
Any battle will obviously be in the air.
They’re throwing money at this last season, talking about groundbreaking TV etc. Being bigger than ever before. There’s no way we’ll see something as relatively unspectacular as some here are presuming.
Apollo,
I’d agree. I’m actually not quite sure what a ground battle would look like with these specific dragons. They don’t have front legs with opposable digits on claws to grab with and haven’t looked very dexterous or agile on the ground otherwise. So what? A lot of biting, tail sweeps and flame shooting? Would the flames be very effective against one another, other than for a rider? Can Daenerys (and perhaps Jon) and NK withstand the breath of a dragon? Questions…
Well, whatever they’re filming there, it surely can’t be any more of a damp squib than the Dragonpit scenes last season.
– Daenerys dragon entrance #26
– Painful dialogue from Euron to Theon.
– Bizarre showdown between The Hound and The Mountain, which everyone was apparently cool with.
– Cersei’s Queensguard, including Jaime and The Mountain, proving absolutely incompetent.
– Jon’s how to kill a wight boardroom demonstration.
– Public Enemies No 1 (Dany) and 2 (Jon) and their entourages just being left to hang around the Dragonpit unguarded for god knows how long, while Cersei and Tyrion march back and forth to the Red Keep for a chinwag.
Meh… that whole sequence just felt underwhelming to me. And it took up 40 minutes of the finale.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I’m inclined to agree, the DP was slightly underwhelming. Asides from the fact it was in a fantastic location, brought together some main characters and we had a few really great interactions beforehand, the rest was a bit of a let down. Dialogue wasn’t great and it felt kinda clumsy.
Clob,
Well I can’t be entirely certain of course.. but from what we’ve read of previous dragon dances it’d consists of this and more… jumping from one dragon to the other etc (although that sounds a bit Legolas for my liking).
Whatever happens it’ll be utterly epic though (especially if there’s three).
It has to be Cleganebowl, doesn’t it. This is where Sandor confronted Franken-Mountain. And it is the most arena-like setting.
No. I do not want her to give up her fighting skills and try to do “ladylike” things she’s not very good at, like sewing magnificent garments for Jon, like Sansa did. I want her to give up her thirst for selfish and private vengeance and use her considerable special skills more constructively for the common good, for future good. Not be stuck in the past but look forward, gain a more positive mindset, outlook, as seems to be hinted at her last S7 scenes, so I’m very hopeful and positive about her future, despite her dark and desperate past.
This is what I tried to say in my previous post, but obviously not well enough because you misunderstood me.
I also have to put in a word for all girls/women who harvest, wash, card, comb, spin, weave, knit and sew so that likes of Arya Stark or Lady Lyanna Mormont, who despise their efforts, can have warm, functional clothes. It’s one thing being allowed to choose your own way according to your inclinations and talents, even if you’re a girl, like Arya who has inclination and talent for warlike activities. Good on her, and on her kind and indulgent father, who let her develop these talents. It’s quite another for her to despise and denigrate girls/women who choose differently. One of her problems is “my way or the highway”. Arya is quite the little internalised misogynist. Girly things are “stupid”, sewing and knitting are “stupid”, everything girls/women do is “stupid”. Even pretty handwriting is somehow bad and to be sneered at. Hopefully, she’ll grow out of it – I think she’s already beginning to – before she becomes the fully-fledged, bitter internalised misogynist that Cersei is. Nobody despises and underrates women more than Cersei.
It’s not only about Westeros cultural misogyny, boys have a tough time, too, if they don’t fit the model of physically strong warrior types. I don’t know what’s it called, proandry or something. Bran struggles with this after he wakes up disabled. He wanted to be a gallant knight, a Kingsguard (what irony that it’s a Kingsguard who lops him off the window). Sam Tarly is our most glaring example. His father disowned him, sent him to the Wall to die, because he was fat, clumsy, bookish, liked music and dancing (I’m not sure how that reconciles with being clumsy), liked spending time with his mother and sisters (in the books he has more than one). He wanted to study and become a Maester, but his military father, who only valued warlike pursuits for a son of his, would hear none of it. In the event, Sam has proved very brave when it matters (helloo! Kill a White Walker! And speaking out to get Jon elected LC – Sam, of course, also had his own, selfish reasons). His cleverness and learning, and bravery in the face of impossible odds will prove vital. Just like a girl’s unexpected, surprisng skills at a most unexpected, crucial moment will. But she can only fight the good fight if she lets go of her personal vendetta – which she seems to have done. Fingers crossed!
I loved S1-S4 Arya so much, wondered about, disliked S5-S7 Arya. Really disliked S7 cold open mass murder. I was disturbingly happy with S6 end Arya killing cantankerous Lord Walder Frey, and apparently having killed his two main stooges, sons, Black Walder and Lame Lothar, to put bits in a pie. This is a heavy book reference. Whithout giving much away, Frey pies (diffetently, not by Arya) is a book fan favourite theory, not really confirmed, so a D&D nod to the books and fans there. Everybody wants Frey pies. Yam!
I had a real problem with Arya’s mass murder of all the Frey men, and her holier-than-thou demeanour. Is she God now? Are the Starks holy and sainted and above law? (Well, according to some fans, they are). Are Starks allowed to commit mass murder, or collective punishment without reprecussions? (While many fans berate Dany for her collective punishment of the slavers, crucifying 163.) Or is it OK because Arya is doing that sneakily, without honour. What would Ned think!?
My favourite head canon is for old Walder Frey to see most of his obvious heirs fall on each other and die fighting each other. I want him to witness the near destruction of House Frey by infighting. Having many sons by many different great house mothers wasn’t such a good tactic, after all, haha. The lord left after the Frey civil war will be the book character Big Walder (about Bran’s age). This is infinitely more satisfying than Arya killing most adult Freys. I mean, what about the children she so graciously spared? Half of them are boys, bound to grow up very, very resentful. Better have Freys kill each other.
I have a headcanon fanfic that the next monarch builds a bridge lower down the Green Fork, and takes all the traffic = tolls = money away from the Freys, haha!
Sorry for overly long comment. If anybody actually read it through, haha!
To make more clear why I want the Freys to self-destruct. Betraying your liege is only a crime, betraying guest right is a sin, by old gods and the new. The betrayer of guest right is accursed, in the sight of gods and men, even in the south.
All of Westeros was shaken, horrified by the Red Wedding. It was such a horrifying violation of one of their sacred core beliefs.
Tywin, the architect, is dead. The Boltons are hanging by a thread… And the Freys are already falling into infighting. I just want Frey to kill Frey, to destroy their house, because they’re accursed.
I want the curse for breaking guest right to come back at all Twins Freys. I want old Walder Frey to see the destruction of his house, his family. Hopefully the books do this. The show quick smick Arya assassination wasn’t very satisfactory, Old Walder got off too easily.
I did. I was waiting for it. 🙂
I do understand what you’re thinking and it’s “good person thinking,” which is entirely fine and proper.
You are right that Arya’s revenge-killing of all those Frey men shouldn’t be so applauded and accepted while other mass killings on the show are not. Some people are not as willing to go with the flow, for lack of a better term, not immerse themselves into that type of world, unable to ignore normal morals and accept that killing is their justice, etc. They’re all completely terrible actions without doing so. I tend to suspend such thoughts when it comes to fantasy like this and anything the “good guys” do is deserved while equal atrocities by the “bad guys” can’t be tolerated. However, one can imagine those good and bad sides reversed for just about any death in this story and realize all of it is messed up.
I can understand some not entirely enjoying the storyline of her’s in S5-S6. I liked it except I would have preferred they had gone deeper with it. Dislike the character though I did not. Until the end portion of S6 that was still all book material for the most part and still my favorite pov character. While it was overly abbreviated we did get the jist that she was lost and looking for what she is and what she will be without family. We saw her realize that she’s not an unfeeling FM machine that doesn’t care about anything as long as they’re paid. We saw her realize she has to be a Stark, even if she’s the only one. Of course then she goes and takes out Walder. That felt entirely justified though. You’ll get no disputes from me on S7… other than disliking the character because I don’t. I’m going to dislike the writing instead, which as I’ve mentioned several times, abandoned her own character arc, direction, growth and erased any of her realizations just to stuff her into the Sansa/LF debacle. The character was built on her own arc the entire series before so why stuff her in as just a piece in sub-plots? They now have the perfect opportunity to really build her up again and use her accurately in the final season.
MeeraReed,
Nice catches. I also think a good way to go about it would be to take a particular character to focus on by only watching all of their scenes chronologically. I think it could provide clarity for the role of each character in the end game that may otherwise not be there from watching the entire episodes.
Clob,
Hey, Clob, I’m glad you responded to my long post on Arya and other things. (I’m now waiting for Ten Bears, the uber Arya fan…) You probably don’t agree with all my views, and I don’t with yours, but I’m glad we can have a conversation.
I’m really baffled about collective punishment. Is Arya all right to kill all these adult male Freys because… not Stark? OK, she apparently left some out, as well as all women and children. Is that somehow better or more justified than Dany crucifying 163 slave masters, as a collective punishment.
Also, is it any wiser? All the kids will grow up resentful. They’re not bad, care nothing about religion or other royal troubles, but if you’re an orphan who knows the king/queen killed your mummy/daddy… They’re kind of ready-made against them. Thankfully, that strife will be beyond our present books and TV show.
And what about the girls (in this case Sansa and Jeyne) who bully and and denigrate those who aren’t good at what they’re good at (i.e. what Arya is “supposed” to be good at)? Years of that bullying mixed with Septa Mordane’s chastising (“Arya would rather act like a beast than a lady”) is a large part of what lead to Arya seeing these pursuits as stupid. It’s a source of pain and embarrassment for her, and so it’s not that unthinkable that an 11-year old is going to react in this way. And Sansa was no better in her treatment of Arya when they were growing up.
I would also not go as far as saying that Arya is a misogynist. She says “most girls are idiots.” Not all. I never took that to mean she has a generalized disdain for girls/women, but that she has a kind of spite towards girls who like “girly things” based on her experiences growing up with Sansa, Jeyne, Septa Mordane, and even Catelyn pushing her to be more lady-like.
We definitely see Arya growing out of this later on in the series, as she easily bonds with Lady Crane, and the final scene between her and Sansa (as you mentioned) has them acknowledging each others’ strengths.
I think it’s supposed to be disturbing to see what this young girl is capable of. It’s on the one hand very satisfying to see these horrible people get what they deserve (I have to admit I cheered during this scene), but it’s also concerning to see her go to these lengths to get revenge. Among many things, this scene is partly about Arya realizing the power she has.
I have no idea where her as “God” or the Starks as “saintly” and “above the law” come from. I think the we’ve been shown time and time again that that isn’t the case at all! Are there repercussions coming for Arya though? My gut says yes. It’s not like GoT or GRRM to let what she’s done slide. What these repercussions may be I don’t know, but I’ve spoken before about her having to give mercy to someone she loves/cares for, or having to leave Westeros because she can’t fit in back in Winterfell anymore after what she’s done. Essentially, maybe she loses her family that she fought so hard to get back to. I’m really not sure.. It’s not dying though, because she has to learn from it in order for her character shift to happen.
So in short, no I don’t think Ned would be too happy if he knew that wiped out an entire house. Jon would/will be concerned as well I imagine. But for all the “bad” things she’s done, Arya has always made the right choice in the end: leave the FM and abandon her revenge against Cersei to go home to her family. And she’s made these decisions all on her own, without any help (she got the intel from Hot Pie, but it her and her alone that chose to go home). So that proves that what Ned taught her is still the strongest after all she’s been through. One of the many reasons I love Arya so much is that she’s both incredibly strong (physically and mentally) but is at the same time very emotionally vulnerable.
In terms of her revenge arc, I don’t see Arya pursuing her list anymore. She’s not going to kill Cersei, and there is a very small chance she’ll be involved in killing The Mountain. If anyone, the only one I can see her ticking off her list is Mel. But I’m not even so sure about that one. Arya will be fighting to defend Winterfell and using her skills in the fight against the WW next season for sure. And I can’t wait! 🙂
I can definitely give Ten Bears a run for his money where that’s concerned! 🙂
Also, this might be O/T but considering the young Karstark and Umber heirs. Sansa righty pointed out that they were attainted by virtue of their fathers/uncles treason. Sansa didn’t want them killed, just stripped of their lands and titles, pretty standard procedure. Jon was even more lenient, welcomed them back in the fold, let them keep their lands and titles. Not excactly breaking the Wheel, there.
So that’s how we end up with Queen Arya, First of Her Name…. I guess those water dancing lessons will pay off in the end.
Depends what you mean by breaking the wheel.
Dany just said the wheel was the shifting balance of power where one family was on top followed by another followed by another.
Basically, its the cycle of violence that has plagued Westeros since the start of the story and that even extends all the way back to the creation of the white walkers themselves.
By forgiving the Karstarks and Umbers Jon was breaking the wheel by turning the page and not giving those families reason to fight again in the future to reclaim what had been stripped from them. He ended any potentially cycle of violence stemming from the battle of the bastards and allowed the North to unite and move forward against the real enemy.
Enharmony1625,
Thank you, Enharmony for your considered, long reply to mine long one. This is what I love about WotW, good discussions.
There are two points you mention that I want to elaborate on. Since we’re talking about book things…
Firstly, you brought up Septa Mordaine’s, Jeyne Poole’s and even Sansa’s bullying of Arya. Very important point, and from Arya’s internal dialogue, we know how much and how badly this affected her self-esteem. Two of them have now had what was coming to them. Sansa had to look at Septa Mordaine’s severed head when Joffrey also made her look at her father’s severed head. Jayne Poole was taken in hand by Littlefinger and “trained”, until she was sent North as “Arya” to marry the bastard of Bolton, Ramsay. They all, even Jaime who wasn’t even let in on the deception, knew she was a fake, but it was expedient politically to pretend poor “trained” (apparently tortured) Jayne was Arya. So Jayne Poole married Ramsay Snow/Bolton as Arya Stark to lend “legitimacy” to the Bolton rule in the North and was brutally abused by her husband. The TV show gave this storyline to Sansa, which resulted in all kinds of hoo-haa.
Secondly,… the saintly Starks. That was a bit tongue-in-cheek, I never intended to imply you, or I, for that matter, actually think they’re sainted. For one thing, I’m not Catholic, so don’t believe in saints, Starks or otherwise. It was just a cheap dig at fanatical Stark fans who seem to think the Starks are perfect and saintly, can do no wrong, St Ned will be canonised any day now, and all his children soon. Except Sansa BECAUSE SHE’S NOT A TRUE STARK. She even let her direwolf be killed on the King’s orders, the bitch. /: sarcasm off.
Yeah, fandoms are strange things.
Anyway, thank you for your responses to my blether.
THIS ! Is what I’m hoping for in the books.
House Monty,
Yes, and Jon was hardly the first or only one to treat former “traitor” houses this way. Robert did it, Tywin Lannister once said to Joffrey (paraphrasing), if your enemies kneel, you help them up (otherwise nobody will ever kneel). There’s no rule “traitors” have to be killed and their lands and titles taken from the heirs. Common law / custom provides for it, Sansa was right, but Jon chose to show leniency.
talvikorppi,
I’m really baffled about collective punishment. Is Arya all right to kill all these adult male Freys because… not Stark? OK, she apparently left some out, as well as all women and children. Is that somehow better or more justified than Dany crucifying 163 slave masters, as a collective punishment.
All right in our modern world where we have court systems, the press, war trials, a prison system, the Geneva Convention, etc. to punish those who’ve committed war crimes, atrocities, or genocide? No. All right in a world like Westeros where none of those institutions exist, probably yes. In fact, all Westeros apparently turned a blind eye when Tywin genocided the Reynes and Tarbecks and probably commissioned the ballad that celebrated his deed. He also nearly wiped out the Targaryens and the Starks. Nobody punished him, or Cersei for blowing up the Sept either.
Arya saw part of the Red Wedding massacre and saw how they desecrated Robb’s body and heard participants boasting about sewing on his wolf’s head. In episode 6.10 she heard Walder boasting about the Red Wedding, clearly his greatest accomplishment. Yet she still made sure no innocents were punished by taking time to invite only the guiltiest and sparing the women. And she essentially stated the main charges in ‘Walder’s’ speech: killing a mother, killing a pregnant woman and babe, and killing guests invited into the home. Killing men on such a massive scale by violating Guest Right was affront to the gods. Ned and Jon might think what she did dishonourable, but if they were there and had seen and heard what she had…perhaps they’d approve under the circumstances. You’re right about potential Frey resentment, but after what the Freys did as a family, they certainly would not receive much sympathy in Westeros. By the way, according to the High Septon, “”The Warrior punishes those who think themselves beyond the reach of justice.” That’s what Arya consistently did.
talvikorppi,
“Arya super ninja assassin warrior princess fantasies”
——————-
You’ve just come up with the perfect spin-off title. 👸🏻
Jon Snowed,
S4e7 is perhaps my all-time favorite episode.
talvikorppi,
Who is “Ghost”?
Robert and Tywin sorta did it. Except the way they handled House Targaryen made them sworn enemies of House Martell and eventually Daenerys.
The way Tywin handled the Starks guaranteed they would remain enemies.
Its def not a new idea. But its one that has been inconsistently applied and the times it has not has contributed to the continued cycle of violence.
talvikorppi,
Damn. I don’t check in for a day, and suddenly my Many-Faced Goddess is being criticized. 👸🏻
👸🏻
Stark Raven’ Rad,
👌
Ah Mockingbird, I watched that one last night but I prefer the laws of gods and men, just before it. Peter Dinklage puts in an excellent performance during the trial.
Also we talked about foreshadowing and set-up just listen to Bronn talk about fighting the Mountain in Mockingbird it’s exactly what happens in the Mountain and the Viper fight!
Stark Raven’ Rad,
We obviosly don’t see eye to eye because you’re a rampant Arya fan and I’m not. However, I thank you for taking the time to read my ramblings, as I have done yours.
I think you emphasise a salient point. Guest right. It’s sacrosanct even in the south. Tywin Lannister made sure his hands appeared clean, as did Roose Bolton. Old Walder Frey, spiteful, stupid old man, was so consumed by his petty grievances and resentments that he fell right into Tywin’s and Roose’s trap, to commit a horriffic crime against all Westerosi customs and gods. Not just a crime, a sin against old gods and the new. That’s why all Westeros was aghast, regardless of what they thought of Robb Stark. The old man, heh, got his empty revenge, heh, but he consigned all his progeny into social wasteland. Who would want to marry a Frey? They’re social lepers. OK, Davan Lannister (Jaime’s cousin once removed, and a rare friend) is resigned to having to dutifully marry his Frey ferret, to keep up the alliance, but after that?
Like I’ve said before, and there is some book foreshadowing, the numerous Freys will turn against each other, the cursed house that they are, and destroy each other and their house. I want, heh, old Walder Frey to witness this, heh. All your 80+ years of scheming, and it all comes crashing down, everybody hates and despises you and your house, even your sons, grandsons, great-grandsons who now fight each other for the title, Lord of the Crossing, but the new monarch has built a bridge downriver and taken all the traffic and tolls and your own get destroy your house. Not to say anything of your wives and daughters-in-law and grand-daughters-in-law, they all hate the name of Frey that was forced upon them. None of their houses will help you, you spiteful old shit, they’ll flee to their houses and cut you off, try to forget they ever were Freys by marriage. Only your sons and grandsons and great-grandsons will uphold the name of House Frey while they fight for it and kinslay each other. See, your house is cursed because you broke sacred guest right. Your house is cursed, and I want you to live to be 105 and see the destruction of your house that comes from within, from your own sons, grandsons, great-gransons. Revenge is best served very cold,
That’s why the TV show’s despatching of the Freys was so unsatisfactory. Wooo, Faceless Man ninja asassin Arya Stark. Uhm. So what? And she spared the women and kids because American television audience sensibilities. But are all those women and their young sons cowed, or are they biding their time? Feeding on their old resentment, to rise again when time is right.
I have no idea what happens with the Freys in the books (if they ever get published, which I doubt), I’m sad showrunners D&D took the easy way out and we’ll miss the wonderful destruction of House Frey from within. Everybody hates the Freys, even the Freys hate the Freys. Sticking assassin Arya in the story was kinda superflous, exrtaneous… Not satisfactory.
Fuck me, the people on this site are boring. Is there a Game of Thrones fansite that caters to actual fans, not the joyless pricks that post comments here?
Ser Hogwyn,
Hey! R’s 20th GM is an intelligent, thoughtful contributor. We don’t call each other “joyless pr*cks” here. He had a valid criticism of the Dragonpit scene. If you disagreed with it, respond to it. Don’t call him names. I’ve disagreed with him on occasion, but don’t resort to penile mood allusions.
PS A word of constructive criticism if you’ll listen: calling other people “joyless pr*cks” is itself “boring.”
Ser Hogwyn,
Duuuuuuuude 😶🤦🏼♂️
Ser Hogwyn,
Look at the comments under the April 7 article about the “longest battle shoot”, and tell me there are no “actual fans” on this site.
How far is the Dragonpit from KL? Im wondering if after KL is destroyed/breached, some main characters make a scramble there for a last stand….
OR… is it possible the Pit has “magical” powers from years of housing dragons….much like the Cave had, where the wights couldnt pass through?
Oh, I love a good discussion. 🙂 And ok, I see what you meant by the “saintly” Starks remark. As we all know, the basis for that in such “fanatical” Stark fans is how much the Starks have suffered. No other family that we’ve been following in this story has suffered as much as them, so it taps in to our nature as humans to fight back. We love it when we see these beaten down good people rise up and take back what’s theirs! But then GoT does what most other stories don’t and take it almost too far. That’s what makes Arya such a tragic character, in that she was once a fun-loving, endearing young rebellious girl who got turned into a dangerous assassin by circumstance and a string of bad influences. Particularly Jaqen who exploited her emotional vulnerability.
Stark Raven’ Rad,
I agree! We have to put characters’ actions in the context of Westeros, not our world. And Arya is far from the only character to take revenge. The Hound goes after Lem Lemoncloak and his ilk to get justice for what they did to Brother Ray and the others building the village. He’s even annoyed that he has to give them a quick death. Brienne abandons her vigil over Sansa to kill Stannis. Sansa gets her revenge against Ramsay (in a way just as brutal as any of Arya’s killings). This is a society where people constantly take matters into their own hands (e.g. Tyrion with Shae and Tywin).
First of all, D&D didn’t have Arya spare the Frey women because of TV sensibilities, it’s because she does not kill innocent people. The show has emphasized this throughout, so that’s very much a character point.
As for the Freys destroying themselves from within, I definitely hear what you’re saying, and agree that it would be an interesting way to see that house go down. However, the show made the right choice. To spend that much screen time on seeing this fairly minor house destroy itself from within would ultimately be pretty boring. Having Arya do it in one fell swoop was the right move.
In the books I can perhaps see it going the way you suggested, but I wonder to what extent LSH might be involved, or at least be a catalyst for it. And it’s no secret that Arya has taken on a bit of LSH’s role in the show.
Ryan,
It’s suppose to be on a hill right within the city. On the show it sort of felt like it was on the outskirts didn’t it, like the suburbs. Your comment about scrambling there to hold out crossed my mind as well. It just doesn’t seem like it’s that secure of a place to withstand much of an attack though. If all of the city is under control by someone or completely filled with animated undead I would hate to rely on those ruins for safety.
I wouldn’t think it has a magical shield but if it did I’m not sure it would be of much good. If it’s living on living it wouldn’t be any. The NK already breached one shield, but if he doesn’t have Viserion or another way… Still, he could just starve them out.
oh good old first swordsman of Braavos! i loved him. best dancing teacher ever, and S5 showed us in another arena that this dance Sandor Clegane laughed at when he saw it performed by Arya is a good way to take out a big Westerosi with a big sword. just ask Jorah…
i just hope we do not see Arya losing it like a snake once she stands triumphing over a pile Gregorschnitzel.
Yeah, Ten Beats/Beers and the rest of us Arya people, criticisms draw out our lengthy rebuttals. Even I was disappointed with what they did with her in S7 so I can’t fault anyone for taking issue with it. Like I mentioned though, I still won’t fault the character but rather consider it a misstep in writing, which not only stunted her growth but reversed it in some ways. They got what they wanted out of it I guess… a resolution of the Sansa/LF knot.
Her assassination of Walder at the end of S6 was perfect. It HAD to be Arya getting that done after witnessing what she did at the RW and him taking her mother and brother from her just when they would have reunited. Youtube reaction videos of her taking out Walder pretty much show unanimously that the scene was awesome. If all of those houses had decibel meters they’d have broken. Who knows, maybe all of that positive reaction sort of inspired them, fueled them in writing the opening of S7.? For those that were particularly disturbed by it, perhaps watching the Red Wedding immediately beforehand would make it better and feel more justified.
I’m at fault I guess for the topic of discussion. I was (sort of) joking about Arya being named champion against Ser Robert Strange. I do still think it would be hilarious to read comments from people going insane because it would eliminate Cleganebowl. 🙂
I said it too, and I believe it’s possible, though I’m not 100% committed to it. IF there is another trial by combat (emphasis on the IF), it would certainly make sense for Cersei to choose Gregor as her champion. I also think it would be interesting to choose Arya as the opponent since it would basically turn the largest fighter in Westeros against the smallest. Arya still has Gregor on her list, and there’s been some potential foreshadowing in previous seasons with the occasional discussion about whether a large person or a quick person would win in a fight.
They’ve also done the trial by combat routine a few times already, so I think putting Arya vs. the Mountain would be one of the only scenarios that would still be interesting to see play out.
at least your points 1 to 4 were essential to the scene.
(1) had to be shown. how else could we know what Cersei & Co are staring at? arriving with a delay was a part of pre-parley mindgames, won by Daenerys: “i apologize.”
(2) How could Euron not try to reduce Theon to his traumatized alter ego in such a situation? he knows more about the planned outcome of the parley than anyone except Cersei.
just imagine he would have made him be Reek again: team J&D would have had a shivering wreck among them, making them the opposite of a strong party in a treaty.
instead, we see Theon staying strong with a little help from Tyrion, of all persons there. Cersei finally calling her terrier back and the Mountain being ready to give her words meaning are a huge winner for team J&D.
(3) before all of this happens, Sandor has some smalltalk with his brother. “hey, so sorry your make-up has been fucked up. i’m off now, i have a real job to do here.”
and he comes back with a box full of real zombie that makes team Cersei nearly shit their collective pants.
in the usual pre-treaty psychological warfare, it’s 3:0 for team J&D, and if it wasn’t, there would have been no need for a Tyrion/Cersei scene.
seeing a dragon and a real zombie for the first time was probably a bit too much for team Cersei. i would not call their reactions incompetent as you did in (4). they were shocked, that’s it. and at least, the Mountainburger had his hand on his sword when the undead was close to hugging Cersei. still a better reaction than his brother has shown before when facing a burning polar bear…
(5) had to be. it’s classic GoT: Jon Snow explains things, he is right, and still people are dumber than a bag of hammers and don’t take him serious.
(6) is just an assumption. i assume the opposite. all the exits from the DP were guarded by Lannister soldiers. fuck me, and fuck the queen if not.
Mr Derp,
It does seem like a ridiculous match-up, but one does have to admit that if anyone other than Sandor takes him out she makes the most sense. Cersei and the spectators on ‘her side’ would obviously find it ridiculous as well. If it were to happen I don’t think Gregor can wear his armor though. Maybe she’d have him take it off to show that she & he aren’t scared of a little girl and also in an attempt to scare the little girl with his gruesomeness. Either way, I think it would be fast like her Rorge kill. No words, no show-boating, just stick/slice and *fwump* on the ground – Too easy. Oh… and a “valar morghulis” at his body as she sheaths her weapon
Clob,
To add on to this make believe scene to make it better (in my eyes)…
I think it would be cool if Sandor would be named champion. He walks out to face Gregor (and all the Cleganebowl people go nuts). Then Sandor looks around and says, “the Many-Faced God has come for you today, brother,” steps back and Arya walks into his place.
* not to mean that Arya is a god, but that she’s going to deliver Gregor to the Many-Faced God. It falls in line with Sandor telling him last season that “you know who’s coming for you.”
Clob,
I like it and I think something like that would go down IF such a scenario presents itself.
Mr Derp,
“Arya still has Gregor on her list, and there’s been some potential foreshadowing in previous seasons with the occasional discussion about whether a large person or a quick person would win in a fight.”
______________
Arya vs. Brienne S7e4, anyone?
Edit: Do I need to identify myself as a member of the “Arya super ninja assassin warrior princess” brigade?
Didn’t you get your sew on patch!? It must have gotten lost in the mail. 🙂
Clob,
I like it! The Many-Faced Goddess named by Sandor as his champion vs. The Mountain.
(Apologies, talvikorppi)
Clob,
Funny that you mention the Mountain’s armor. I was just reading last night in a Cersei chapter from AFFC where Cersei and Qyburn are discussing this armor; to sum it up, Cersei threatens Qyburn and tells him he better not be playing her false, as this armor that Qyburn has instructed her smiths to make is extremely heavy, much heavier than any human can wear (and presumably much more safe and secure for the one wearing it). He does seem pretty indestructible on the show with this new armor.
Side note: I am now picturing him with Euron’s Varlyrian steel armor. Talk about Over Powered. I bet he’d be able to defeat the great Other himself.
Jaehaerys,
The gold armor did look a lot more impenetrable than the new black stuff in S7, but still, either would seem difficult to get past with helmet and all.
Jaehaerys,
Ever since Prof. Sandor’s seminar about encountering opponents with armor and a big f*cking sword, Arya for the most part has aimed for exposed, soft tissue targets, eg the eyes, neck, throat and jugular. (Bye-bye MFT, Walder, LF, and practice Brienne.)
talvikorppi,
Of course I read it–you always write good, intelligent analyses of the series. And we don’t always disagree. I agree the Frey v Frey internecine struggle hinted at in the books (and aided by Lady S) is much more interesting, but the show has to be efficient and visual, and this was a spectacular closure for the main perpetrators of the biggest massacre in the story. Also, it’s the only show instance of a Stark deliberately avenging crimes against their house. (Sansa’s revenge was for Ramsay.)
Most fans, as you know, loved the Fatal Frey Feast. Arya was given LAdy Stoneheart’s task of taking out the Freys, which distorts her character. But unlike LS, at least Arya kills only guilty people, which, as Enharmony points out, the show often reinforces. (Offhand, I cannot think of a single clearly innocent person she’s hurt, much less killed. Quite often she’s protected people.) And since there is no functioning justice system in Westeros, she’s the Law west of the Pecos: Have Sword, Will Travel.
I would have loved to discuss some of your other points, but I’m working on a major presentation and haven’t the time to participate in long discussions. But keep writing. I enjoy reading.
Ten Bears,
I can’t remember where I read/heard this, but someone had a theory that while Arya won’t be directly involved in killing The Mountain, Sandor will use moves and skills he learns from Arya in order to take his brother down. That is, when they reunite and Sandor sees what an accomplished fighter Arya has become with her “water dancing and her Needle”, she will effectively teach him some valuable skills that will become crucial in his fight against Gregor.
I quite like that idea, and is an interesting twist on the student/teacher relationship they had in season 4.
Ten Bears,
She does LOVE the throat. Come to think of it, at least half of her on-screen kills have been from slicing the throat. Everybody but her first kill (the stable boy at King’s Landing), the mass murder of the Frey’s, and (I think? Can’t quite remember where she stabbed this one) the Lannister/Frey soldier(s) she encountered on the road with Sandor that were talking shit about her family. And possibly the Waif, but this was off-screen. Everybody else has been throated (even MFT, since she slit his throat to finish him off after taking out his eyes).
That seems okay I suppose. It’s a little difficult to imagine Sandor quickly and lightly spinning around on his feet though. I’m not sure I can see him wanting to even try/learn either believing he’s a strong enough fighter as is.
I’ve gone and talked myself into really wanting the scenario where Sandor steps aside for Arya to do what he’s wanted to do all his life. We’ve all tried to figure out exactly what Arya’s big role can be in the final season other than just blending in and helping fight with everyone else. This would give her something individually that is not only a big deal but fits with her story:
Stick him with the pointy end, The Mountain being on her list, witnessing his atrocities at Harrenhal, eventually befriending Sandor (who really doesn’t have any friends), all of the one-on-one fight training and specific words spoken while doing that, showing that she has the ability to fight a large opponent (Brienne), Gregor cheating the gods of his death, “the only one that needs protecting is the one that gets in her way.” Yeah, I want to see it now. 😛
I wrote a long comment last night, but it was too late and therefore, I think, it vanished in some cloud :o(
Thank You, Stark Raven, it’s what I wanted to say, Arya in shape of Walder numerated the glorious deeds, the Freymen did, and all the Freymen cheered out, “Yeeeeeah, we diiiid! Weeee are the champions -! Up with the jars!”
They pronounced the sentence by themselve.
That’s the way, I took the scene.
Jaehaerys,
The Frey soldier laughing about throwing Catelyn’s body in the river and bragging about sewing Robb’s head to Greywind – got his neck punctured numerous times by Arya with the knife she “borrowed” from Sandor. (“All men are made of water, you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out…and they DIE!” – S.F.)
PS BEST part of that scene: Arya with bloody hands holding her coin and whispering “Valor Morghulis”, while in the background Sandor has already started eating the dead Frey soldiers’ lunch!
Clob,
Yeah, it’s probably a little tin-foily, but I would see it more along the lines of Sandor relying on agility and surgical strikes rather than trying to overpower Gregor.
While I would love to see Arya take down The Mountain, having Sandor throw down the gauntlet the way he did in 7×07 tells me he’s Sandor’s to kill. And like Ten Bears has said, not in an act of vengeance but in a more heroic way of protecting or defending someone (Arya or Sansa, or just people in general).
Yeah, it’s probably like a 95% chance that Sandor kills Gregor. However…
Remember that he didn’t specifically say “I’m coming for you.” His words were “… It’s not how it ends for you, brother. You know who’s coming for you. You’ve always known.” Those words were a little less straight to the point than Sandor typically is. The obvious answer we’re probably suppose to think is himself, but it WAS shortly after him saying he wouldn’t be the one that gets in Arya’s way. A person could take that ~5% chance and in afterthought read it as though he meant Death is coming for Gregor (and Arya will be the hand he uses).
🙂
Ten Bears,
I thought so! That is four out of six on-screen deaths (that I can remember, at least- and counting the many massacred Frey’s as one kill) caused by a throat wound. I dare say that it won’t be the last kill, either.
That is a great scene. I love how she just holds up the knife after, for Sandor to take back while staring at the dead man. “The first man,” as she tells Sandor (although I have to say I’m not sure why she says this after she’s already killed the stable boy).
Jaehaerys,
I’ve wondered that too before, but I assume it’s simply man vs. boy.
and that it was pretty much by accident. I swear I remember her counting that kill when trying to sound tough to someone but I can’t pull it right now…
Clob,
I can’t recall either, but I think she said that to Hot Pie, maybe? I could be wrong.
Clob,
She was trying to sound tough when Hot Pie and Lommy were bullying her before they left King’s Landing, I believe. Hot Pie told her that he kicked a boy to death, and she said she didn’t believe him, and then went on to brag about how she killed a boy and how she was “really good at killing little boys.” That scene was too good… Arya always knows how to make me laugh.
Mr Derp,
Jaehaerys,
Yep, that’s it! “I already killed one fat boy!” “I’m good at killing fat boys.”
How was I unable to pull it? Our introduction to Hot Pie as a bully who then became a super nice kid forever after.
Clob,
That’s it! How did I ever think it was “little boys”… No offense to Hot Pie, but he certainly wouldn’t be considered a little boy.
And hey, I don’t fault Hot Pie for his mean demeanor! You have to make some sort of reputation for yourself if you’re headed to The Wall. Now I’m imagining if Hot Pie and Arya made it to The Wall… wow, she would’ve made him look like a fool, I have no doubt.
Jaehaerys,
Indeed, but at least the Nights Watch would’ve finally gotten a decent meal for once.
Mr Derp,
Very true! Although, I’m not sure Hot Pie would have been a *sniff* survivor at Castle Black.
Clob,
Definitely not ranger material 🙂 Perfect candidate for a steward though.
I’ll be underwhelmed if this turns out to be cleganebowl lol.
My wild guess is a dragon + their dragon rider could die here. As in after a duel in the skies, the wounded/dying dragon is forced to land here (or even crash lands). Shooting the cgi plates for such a sequence could take a while, plus whatever scenes involving the physical actors.
Mr Derp,
Why not? Fat boy Sam is a survivor, too ;o)
cos alpha,
You just gave me an idea for a conversation I’m having in another thread. I’m assigning a theme song to each character in GoT and I think Sam’s or Hot Pie’s might have to be “Survivor” by Destiny’s Child. Though, I’m not a fan of that song and I’m only trying to come up with ones that I like, so I won’t use it yet. It’s definitely a possibility though.
Clob,
In all seriousness, Arya/Maisie Williams is the primary reason I loved S1 Ep. 1 and kept watching after that. The show could’ve slotted any number of competent actors and actresses in most of the other roles without a noticeable difference in quality.
But not Maisie Williams as Arya. They struck gold with her. Probably Rory McCann as Sandor as well.
– Sincerely,
Ten Bears
Member, Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess Brigade
Mr Derp,
“Burning Heart” BY Survivor??
or
“Hungry Like The Wolf” by Duran Duran? 😉
HA!!
———-
Yep, as has been said so many times, Maisie was/is perfect. It would have taken another 1-in-10,000 to maybe get an equal. She had a range from the get-go that isn’t common.
Peter for Tyrion is another that’s basically a “no duh”
Where do I sign up? 🙂
Enharmony1625,
For the sake of attribution, on 4/9 at 3:21 pm Talvikorppi wrote: “Ugh. I’m so fed up with Arya super ninja assassin warrior princess fantasies.”
I actually liked that, so filched those words.
By the way, according to my records you don’t need to sign up. You’re already listed as a charter member of the Brigade. 👸🏻
… just don’t expect the sew on patch anytime soon. There seems to be a shipping issue. 🙂
My favorite charakter changes from time to time, from Sandor to Arya to Tyrion to Bronn (yes!!!) to Varys (yes!!!)… – it depends on, how convincing and “character-true” they (may?) act and how I feel at the time: sometimes I like barking dogs, sometimes waterdancing, sometimes eloquent and intelligent speeking etc. and every time, when I feel morein, than I see and hear – and that’s not always the same, though it may be the same scene, but another day.
Clob,
“Davy the Fat Boy” by Randy Newman?
Clob,
But I paid extra for overnight delivery! Oh wait…I forgot. No more LF & his jet pack. 😁👸🏻🔪
The patch might look something like this:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71FzbcYAf3L._SY463_.jpg
No offense to Kit Harrington, Emilia C., Lena Headey at al. I love them all. However, I can think of many other actors who could’ve been “slotted into” those roles. (And I wonder how Megan Fox would’ve been as Melisandre..)
For me, at least, to paraphrase Hot Pie: “No Maisie, no show. It’s as simple as that.”
Ten Bears,
Agreed.
Who we got for the other roles did pretty good to great. They all brought something with them that would be unique to them in their role, but other actors would have as well. The characters would probably have felt a bit different but not necessarily for the worse.
Your mention of Emilia made me think of Tamzin who was initially cast for the part. While I do think someone else could have played Daenerys, I believe I would have really disliked Tamzin for her. She may be a fine actress, but having seen her in other period piece roles I just can’t see her as Daenerys.
I like to think Jon’s intent is the difference. Tywin, Robert, etc allowed enemies back into the fold to further their own ambitions. Jon couldn’t have cared less about his own position, only about saving as many people as he can, regardless of their loyalties or affiliations. The more dead, the more meat for the NK’s army. He’s the only leader to look at the (truly) bigger picture and fight for the entire realm. He may have broken that wheel without even realising it.
I quite like Emilia as Dany (though she’s no Lena Headey), but having watched Vikings I think Kathryn Winnick could have made a good Dany.
Enharmony1625,
definitely 🙂
OT: Davy Orr has just posted a pretty cool (spoilery) last video from Magheramorne!
Apollo,
Is the spoiler part when the Jedi show up? 😛
I still can’t really tell what’s going on.
I believe its
I would assume it’s Jon + 2 others potentially Beric and Tormund if they make it that far.
Clob,
Jon Snowed,
Yeah, seems to be
And you just KNOW we’re now gonna get bombarded with the Lightbringer and Dawn theories!
😱
Apollo,
My spoiler code doesn’t appear to be working 😬
Isabelle,
Well said!
I’ve always felt that Jon’s journey has been to be one of the few to look at the “big picture”, regardless of immediate consequences.
Jon Snowed,
You mean Wights or White Walkers?
You can burn Wights, but I don’t think White Walkers can be killed with fire.
It could be either Chilli not clear which but if I had guess I’d say Wights as in the zombie hoarde.
Clob,
Been enjoying this discussion this morning and like your take on Arya. But this was perfect!
Clob,
But would she? She doesn’t deal well with any form of criticism and this is Westeros… It’s all they do.
Not only that but she destroyed slavery and then never gave the economy anything back so it was left and ex slaves begged to be slaves again… Not a good sign of a good ruler.
The next sign is the whole ‘weve already talked about this’… If her advisors have to talk her out of burning cities and castles to the ground Everytime things don’t go her way… Not really a good ruler for Westeros, a country which has alot of politics and games.
And finally what do you think makes her a good ruler? Aside from inspiring men with violence, what has she done as a ruler to prove she is good and knows what she is doing or capable of learning?
Show wise for me she does the same things every time… Bad decision, goes wrong, burns it. Starts over.
So why is that a system that is acceptable to rule a country which has several subsections with entirely different motives and cultures?
What makes Daenerys a good ruler, don’t say ‘she ended slavery’ because a massive plot point was the fact that she never gave the economy anything new to work with that people were starving and begging to be slaves again, then to make it all worse, she left a failing state in the hands of a greedy bloody thirsty mercenary…
So what is she capable of ruling wise.
She doesn’t do trials, as seen with the Meereem plot. A major plot point was that the slavers she executed we’re not all horrific criminals and many (i.e. Hizdars father) may have been entirely innocent of the crimes she cruxified them for.
So again ruling, what is her plan?
Kill everyone who isn’t madly in love with her or fears her to the point they won’t retaliate? Become Aerys part 2?
Or is the show going to back track on seasons worth of writing and make her the perfect queen who’s never done anything wrong…
Arya Strek,
Whoever is a “good” ruler is likely to have bigger and more immediate problems than instituting a viable form of government. KL itself has 1,000,000 people – with no food supplies. Armies are set to square off – with no food supplies. Thomas Jefferson could be elected king, but if the people are hungry they’ll vilify and execute him.
I go back to Tyrion excoriating Joffrey in S2e6: “They’re starving, you fool! All because of a war you started!”
And Bronn in S2e8: “Have you ever been in a city under siege? Maybe this part’s not in your books. See, it’s not the fighting that kills most people. It’s the starving. Food’s worth more than gold…”
Famine has already worsened to the point that poor Rabbit Stew Sally’s farmer father committed murder-suicide because he couldn’t bear to watch her starve (S7e1).
Ten Bears,
It’s even easier to make her look worse in the eye of the people when you remind them that Cersei was bringing a metric ton of food back from high garden before Daenerys intercepted and burned a fair few carts in the process.
Arya Strek,
Yup! I could envision Cersei throwing back Tyrion’s words at Dany:
“They’re starving, you fool! All because of a war you started!”
(Although to be fair, the root of the food shortages started long before, eg with Einstein Tywin’s strategy “burn the villages, burn the farms”).
ash,
And….Arya finally gets to put her sword through a Clegane’s eye and out the back of his skull. (I’ll have to look; isn’t Gregor’s visor the only exposed part of his KG armor?)
Arya Strek,
PS I still don’t understand Dany’s incineration of the food carts. During her meltdown on Dragonstone Beach when she bashed Tyrion for the failure of his “clever plans”, she expressly bemoaned the defeat of the Tyrells because the food from the Reach/Highgarden was supposed to feed the Dothrakis.
Arya Strek,
Meereen was experience. The situation and circumstances are highly different than what I call “earning the throne” as opposed to taking it. She wasn’t ruling Meereen long enough to make vast changes but changes were occurring anyway, with some thanks to her advisors, which she’d also have in Westeros. She also had nobody with high status on her side after she forcefully took over. She instead had all of the Masters’ power and wealth directly hindering any changes and improvements, which were huge for their society. Westeros doesn’t have slavery so her biggest “issue” doesn’t exist to create those problems.
I’m not about to say she would suck as queen in Westeros just based on how things didn’t go well in Meereen. She was in a state of war for the entire short period she was there, just as she’s been in a state of war since arriving in Westeros. I have no reason to think she’d just sit on her throne and do nothing positive (like Cersei) and go around roasting people. Her mantra has always been about making life better for the people while Cersei has only ever been concerned about maintaining her power and status. All of this is also considering that if she makes it through all of this NK stuff and takes down Cersei then I would say the people would want Daenerys as queen.
Arya Strek,
Pretty certain all of those resources would have gone directly to supporting the Lannister army, not the people of KL.
Ten Bears,
It was maybe two episodes before and she was talking about 100,000 Dorthraki mouths to feed and then she burned food… It was ridiculous.
But this is the person everyone seems to just forgive and say ‘but she’s learning’ yes. She is, but, you can’t learn not to burn food… That’s just logic.
As for her attitude the entirety of last season it was nothing sort of one of those spoilt brats on my super sweet 16…
My personal favorite was ‘cersei told u I’m here 2 kill, I’m not. But if you don’t do what I say u die….’
Like okay then
Arya Strek,
For the sake of accuracy, here’s what Dany said to Tyrion on Dragonstone Beach – before she went barbecuing with Drogon:
Dany: What is it?
Tyrion: We took Casterly Rock.
Dany: That’s very good to hear…Isn’t it?
Jon: You’ll want to discuss this amongst yourselves. Perhaps– –
Dany: You will stay. All my allies are gone. They’ve been taken from me while I’ve been sitting here on this island.
Tyrion: You still have the largest armies.
Dany: Who won’t be able to eat because Cersei has taken all the food from the Reach.
Tyrion: Call Grey Worm and the Unsullied back. We still have enough ships to carry the Dothraki to the mainland. Commit to the blockade of King’s Landing. We have a plan. It’s still the right plan.
Dany: The right plan! Your strategy has lost us Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the Reach.
Tyrion: If I have underestimated our enemies–
Dany: Our enemies? Your family, you mean. Perhaps you don’t want to hurt them after all. Enough with the clever plans. I have three large dragons…..
[I should also note that a “blockade” of KL would only cause misery and starvation of its 1,000,000 inhabitants. Not exactly the kind of PR Dany was hoping for, is it?]
Clob,
Funny story, did you know, the Lannisters army at that point was made up of small folk of Kings landing… It’s like they’d have had food and money to send to their families… A shocking theory
Because it looked cool seeing all those carts and stuff being blown up and set afire by Drogon on tv for the viewers. What else would have they used? 😛
Arya Strek,
Not the bulk of it – it’s not suppose to be
Clob,
Such a good point about the food. So many people are quick to criticize this move; but the food would most certainly have gone to the Lannister army and the nobility. Cersei has done nothing to suggest the food would have been given to the small folk to actually help the city.
The only counterpoint I can see to this is that maybe Dany could’ve taken the food supplies and sent it to The Rock… but in any case, the Unsullied soon left The Rock anyway, and it would’ve taken lots of time and effort to transport that food over there for essentially no reason. She could’ve taken it North, or to Dragonstone… but again, that’s a long journey, and she didn’t know her next move at that point.
I just don’t think burning the food supplies was that bad of a move, in the long run.
I always viewed that action simply as Dany being implusive and wanting to destroy her enemies without thinking through the consequences. As the seasons have past she has grown more implusive and entitled in my opinion.
Arya Strek,
Funny story, you do know Dany is on the opposite side of Cersei, right? Why would she want to help out her enemy’s army by giving them food… just doesn’t make sense. I mean, they are in the middle of a war, after all.
Also, the Lannister Army is made up of the same force it has always been made up of. Yes, it includes some small folk, and also nobility. It does not account for the nearly 1,000,000 small folk in King’s Landing, that is for sure.
Jaehaerys,
You don’t think burning food on the brink of winter, end of harvest season…was a bad move?
As there about to embark on one of the biggest wars, a war to end wars…
Sweet pea, it’s a short term power move, a long term disaster.
The Dorthraki won’t sit and starve, they’ll turn. They’re not loyal.
The unsullied will try, but they’re built to fight in the sand, not snow.
The dragons will eat the live stock and potentially innocent people.
So basically if Sansa wasn’t being more prepared and building big stocks than I can honestly say, they’d all be done..
It’s not a good move to try to starve your enemy out, when you need food just as much, if not more… Because you’re the one going to fight the dead.yikes.
Jaehaerys,
I just figured that Dany had roasted the Lannister soldiers. Why roast the fresh produce as well? With the oncoming Dothraki hordes, those carts weren’t going anywhere anyway.
But I guess it’s like Clob said: “Because it looked cool seeing all those carts and stuff being blown up and set afire by Drogon on tv for the viewers.” 🔥
Arya Strek,
Well, at that point in time, Dany hadn’t seen the AotD and was pretty skeptical of it… as she should be. Planning for what we know is going to happen wasn’t exactly on her mind at the time, not until the Beyond the Wall escapade.
Nothing we’ve seen so far has pointed to the Dothraki being disloyal. They crossed the Narrow Sea for their queen, which they’ve never done before. If anything, I’d say they are among her most loyal. Not that it should matter in this discussion… I don’t really know why you brought them up.
Lastly, I ask what you think her other options were? The way I see it, she could have either (a) burned the food; (b) left it there for Cersei to take once the battle had commenced; (c) left forces behind to *slowly* transport this food to The Rock or Dragonstone; or (d) force her Dothraki army to eat all of the food then and there.
The problems: (a) it is a waste; (b) she is essentially feeding her enemies, and making things easier for them to withstand a siege, which she plans on doing; (c) this would increase the travel time tenfold, since traveling with loads of food is much, much slower than a horde of Dothraki traveling alone by horse – she had also not planned out her next move yet, so taking her forces back to Dragonstone *and quickly* was probably the best move, as I see it; and (d) this was just a funny suggestion.
Out of all of these options, and with the limited information of what the future held… yes, I do fully support her idea of destroying the food. You have to think of this through the eyes of somebody that’s main objective is to take the Iron Throne, and not help humanity survive the White Walker invasion (because at that point in time, well… I will say she didn’t really believe in it).
But I do very much welcome any ideas you have that would have been better options for Dany! I don’t see any, but hey, I’m wrong a lot.
I thought it was a damn stupid act, she had the numbers, they could have gotten all or almost all those food carts and put them in a safe area, the food was one of her main objective.
Right now between Cersei, Danni, and Sansa, only Sansa is having food sent early for storage. Hopefully it won’t be destroyed but it also won’t be enough for all the refugees and soldiers that are heading to WF.
Some tough choices are facing her, Jon and crew.
Grail King,
Yup. and that is the basis for my tinfoil theory that some disgruntled Northerners, learning that hungry hordes of Dothraki and Unsullied are on the way, will raid Winterfell to try to steal the groceries from the cupboard.
I just hope that when food gets really scarce nobody opts for Thenn Cuisine.
Well I’m sure historically it happened from what I remembered from school days 55 years back.
Grail King,
But where exactly is this “safe” place for her to take the food? She held two castles, one being very far away, and the other being kind of far away as well, and they ended up abandoning it shortly after anyway. While the only castle she was actually near… well, her enemies held it, so the best course of action would probably be to get the F outta dodge before your enemy hears of the battle and strikes back.
I’m not saying they don’t need food, as I’m pretty certain that their lack of food will be a big problem for this up-coming season, and the show will go into this problem in-depth. It will almost certainly be a big issue. I am just saying that I don’t see any plausible option for her to keep that food. Realistically, there was little she could have done. All the safe places for her to take this food are kingdoms away, while her enemy is only a short amount of miles away.
At that moment I meant away from the battle, from there they could get to the Sea ( they are close enough to water ) empty the wagons and put them on ships, or go overland with Dragon air cover.
Grail King,
But the fleet that they had at The Rock was just smashed, and the somewhat smaller navy that she still has was at Dragonstone. Wait for a raven to summon the rest of her ships? That’s going to take a lot of time, as would taking the food supplies up the King’s Road. Time that Dany (correctly, in my opinion) didn’t believe she had, with the rest of her enemy’s army so close. Which was a big part of my argument above. The timing element.
Jaehaerys,
I mean you’re riding a giant weapon if mass destruction capable of taking out an entire city with ease… But sure let’s pretend there’s no way that Dany could have either used such a creature for transporting food or defending the group.
Ah but I suppose then we’d haveore scenes of Dany doing actually important things and less of that ‘epic Romance’ which was so dry and bland u think I would rather had that time filled with a scene of Nymeria taking a shit.
Anyway; there are 10001 things that could have been done instead of destorying food on the brink of winter and the end of the harvest season…
Arya Strek,
I’m pretty sure Drogon can’t fly several caravans full of food hundreds of miles… I’d be hard pressed to believe that anyone could even get one caravan on his back. That just makes little sense. Drogon could definitely stay and defend the Dothraki while they transport the food, but this again leads me to my point of it taking a long, long time to transport all of this to Dragonstone. Time Dany doesn’t think she has. She isn’t planning for the long term, at this point, she’s planning on taking the Iron Throne, and soon.
I do, and have, welcomed you to list any of these 10,001 things that Dany could have done differently in that situation. I’ve found four things, but I can’t seem to think of any other options she had. Any specifics at all, I’m open to ideas!
Or we could just end the conversation. I’m open to either.
Jaehaerys,
One: the mass cruxified one of Meereem. She didn’t trial anyone and thus lead to a major plot point; killing innocent people who were not guilty of the crimes she deemed them.
– consider maybe having a trial.
Burning the Tarlys.
-consider holding them prisoner and teaching them about your plans for Westeros, how you intend to make it better.
Break the wheel?
-despite popular belief she doesn’t mean she’s going to save anyone, it literally means she’s going to make it so she’s an untouchable power in which no one can overthrow. That’s not a grand idea.
Burning the food.
– sure she thinks she has little time, but is your fear of losing so much greater than attempting to do the best thing for not only her soldiers but the small folk. She has Dorthraki, they will not sit idle and hungry in winter. They will turn and those who pay will be the people she supposedly wants to help.
Holding Jon prisoner
– just why? The whole scenario has created a very easy play which will lose her the north due the people very happy to throw Jon to the curb in favour of the other Starks or cause her to burn more people, thus further playing into the propaganda against her.
Threatening Varys
-why even have that? Like the dude did so much for her, he got the reach and Dorne on her side and she threatens to burn him, just like Daddy. She is falling into her father’s ways.
The black and white view points.
– everything with her is black and white. If you’re not with me you’re against me and I can and will burn you. Or, have your daughter tortured in front of you (poor mr wine sellers)
The advisors.
– so she has some very good advisors and always has, Barristan, Jorah, Tyrion, Varys… All very knowledgeable and overall they make better choices. But since season 4 she stopped listening to them. And since season 4 she’s burned every problem she’s had and it only gets worse or comes back.
Another perosn problem is her listening to Olenna, Olenna doesn’t have any regard for Daenerys. She could have cared less about her and her crusade. Olenna wanted Cersei to burn. Be a dragon she said, but as soon as it’s over you know Olenna would have cleaned house and made sure Daenerys wasn’t a threat anymore.
Why choose Daenerys?
Let’s be honest here, she wanted Daenerys because she’s heard about her. The violence blood shed. Fire and blood. That’s all she is.
Tyrion, Varys and Jorah want her to be more than that, but she’s ignoring them and making herself the exact thing Cersei wants.
Even if Daenerys wins the throne there will be riots and fighting. Why? Because Cersei wasn’t wrong.
I mean this is a so called better option who has to be talked down from burning the red keep and potentially killing thousands in the process… Not really a better choice.
But as they say, the worst tyrants are the ones who believe what they are doing is right.
Now let’s take all of this and make one simple deduction.
-take away her dragons and she is nothing. She cannot rule without fear, she cannot win without fear. She has forgotten who she was and turned into nothing more than a dragon.
Once the dragons are dead, and Cersei is dead… where will people go?
Too those kids in the north who have the Riverlands (thank you Arya), The north (Jon and Sansa) and the Vale (Sansa)
Who stood with her family and helped save the world.
We all know that Jon and Daenerys will end with them going head to head. Jon doesn’t believe in burning the living. And we know he won’t approve of his BEST FRIENDS FAMILY BEING BURNED… Nor do we believe Daenerys will happily welcome the rightful Targaryen heir who takes all of her ‘i was born to rule’ shit and throws it out the window.
Whether Jon lives or dies doesn’t matter, because Daenerys will have nothing at the end.
she has 3 dragons, and she does have some ships, including Jons.
She could make multiple trips, may not be quick, but it won’t take weeks either.
Arya Strek,
Alright, I think you are confused about what I was saying. I was, in no way, trying to make an argument that Dany is a good person/queen. That wasn’t my point at all. I don’t want to discuss that; it has been discussed here many times, and to be honest, there can be a substantial case made for either side of this. To each his own.
I was simply trying to rationalize her decision to destroy the food. I like to look at decisions characters have made through their eyes, to try to understand their motives a little better. I see now that you cannot rationalize this decision. I think she had no better option, as her other options were helping her enemy out or attempting to make a very long trip back to Dragonstone with the food.
Again, I would like to stress, I was in no way trying to argue anything besides this. The food bit.
Grail King,
In that moment, she had one dragon and no ships. Sending word for ships, getting ships down the coast, meeting up with the ships, and then sailing back to Dragonstone would take substantial time. Not to mention that Euron’s fleet has managed to take control of… well, not really sure exactly, but it sure seems like he’s taken control of most of the sea. Dany’s fleet tends to get smaller and smaller every time she tries to use it. I personally don’t see that as a smart move.
Sidenote: not that it really matters, but I wouldn’t say she had Jon’s ships. They didn’t even formally become allies until the end of Beyond the Wall.
Arya Strek,
I hate to bring it up… but you do know that your strings of posts are just oozing with spiteful Daenerys hate, right? I personally am not going to participate any more on this particular topic since you’re obviously focused solely on her being terrible. You ignore or attempt to rebut any reasonable or logical conversation to the contrary. Enjoy the hate. 😛
Clob,
Im sorry. I didn’t realise that criticising horrific decisions made by a character is suddenly hateful.
I suppose it suits me if you stop because you’ve done nothing to proven her decisions are good or the right ones.
Im also sorry that your mind is closed to criticism of the show writing of a character.
Enjoy your day, enjoy being closed minded.
Clob,
Lol you hit the nail on the head with this one Clob. I should’ve exited the conversation yesterday, but I was just too hung up on getting my points across 🙂
Jaehaerys,
Clob,
Arya “Strek” “Sterk” whatever is more interested in having an argument than a conversation. It’s impossible to have a courteous discussion with someone like that. I can sense the frustration in each post. Good on you for ending it without lowering yourself to their level.
Arya Strek,
Allow me to be a dissenting voice. I enjoyed reading your commentary and didn’t find it to be “hating.” Just because someone isn’t a Danyphile doesn’t make her or him a Danyphobe.
No character in GoT is perfect in every way.
Except Arya, of course 👸🏻🙂
Thank You, Ten Bears :o)
Besides: no one is perfect.