To go forward we must go back. Well, okay, “must” might be too strong of a word. Still, it is fitting that, mere months before the final season of Game of Thrones airs, we get a peek at the script of the very first and much maligned Game of Thrones pilot that-never-was.
Bill Bradley of the Huffington Post recently paid a visit to George R.R. Martin’s collection at the Texas A&M’s Cushing Memorial Library, where Martin’s been depositing drafts of his work for years. There, Bradley found a production draft of that ill-fated Game of Thrones pilot that never aired.
Bradley reported that, after reading the script, he had two takeaways:
- The pilot script that has been floating around the internet for years is not the same as the script in Texas, and the latter is far more likely to resemble what was was filmed.
- It doesn’t read as a complete and utter disaster (I know, I’m disappointed too).
Bradley did not upload the entire script online. However, from the snippets that he has provided, we can appreciate some of the most apparent differences between the original pilot and the version of “Winter is Coming” that we got.
Cersei burns the feather at Lyanna’s crypt
While the conversation between Ned and Robert at Lyanna’s tomb plays out more or less the same as it does in the official pilot, what follows is a bit different.
The incineration of Robert’s feather would have precluded Sansa from returning it to its place in season 5 (a small but meaningful character beat, in my opinion) and its significance as a symbol of Jon’s parentage and/or Bran in the season 8 teaser. However, this act of Cersei’s offers us insight into her relationship with Robert and Lyanna that, in final version of season 1, we don’t get until much later.
Daenerys and Khal Drogo’s wedding night is consensual
*Sigh* Okay, let’s get into this. In this more faithful adaptation of the scene from the book, Khal Drogo gives Daenerys the opportunity to refuse him. Thus, Daenerys has agency when she chooses to have sex with her new husband. In the version of “Winter is Coming” that we got, Daenerys is given no such option and she is raped.
This is one of those controversies that I generally avoid like the plague. But, while we’re here, I’m just going to point out that there’s no indication in this production draft that the show planned to omit the other rape scene between Khal Drogo and Daenerys in episode 2 … the one that’s also in the books in which Daenerys buries her face in her pillows to muffle her screams.
My point is, sexual violence is a part of Khal Drogo and Daenerys’ relationship in both the books and the show and their dynamic has always been more complicated than what can be extrapolated from the wedding night alone.
Moving on …
Cersei and Jaime’s sex scene is … uh, less consensual
Continuing the trend of uncomfortable sex scenes, the twincest that Bran walked in on was originally going to be much more disturbing.
Ugh. Reading this makes the rape scene in season 4 feel sort of inevitable, as if the writers didn’t understand the significance of Jaime ignoring Cersei saying “stop” from the get go.
The White Walkers speak Skroth!
On a lighter note, the original pilot was going to introduce the fully developed language of the White Walkers, which David J Peterson dubbed “Skroth”
Much can be said about how giving the White Walkers language (as they have in the books) would have changed our perception of the series’ monsters. Certainly, it would have established early on that (as the script says) the White Walkers are not “mindless predators.”
Catelyn wants Sansa to become queen
Giving Catelyn royal ambitions for her eldest daughter would have certainly established Catelyn Stark as a very different sort of character than the one we eventually got. It’s not clear in Bradley’s article but I have to assume that the original pilot did not include Catelyn’s pre-feast conversation with Sansa which establishes the mother and daughter’s different stances on moving to King’s Landing.
There are more differences uncovered by Bradley- check them out at HuffingtonPost.com!
So, what do you think about about the production draft of the unaired pilot? Tell us below.
Drogo and Dany’s scene are a mess in the books and show, IMO. But I get the idea. The scene with Cersei and Jaime though makes me wonder if these guys (D&D) have a fetish thing for rape or what? It’s as if they really wanted a rape scene between them. I just don’t get it.
Hodor … (Yasssssss! )
The past is the past. The future is all that’s worth discussing.
Seriously none of these sound like they’d make the pilot any less palatable than what we got.
Perhaps it was the acting? BUT why change script if that were the case?
Oh well….
I guess we’ll never know….unless HBO decides on releasing the unaired pilot to us some time after the series is over.
I think the writer of the HuffPo piece failed to appreciate that Joffrey, though yes– a turd — was the most awesome GOT character ever.
I miss Jack Gleeson! He made Joffrey so much fun to hate.
Yeah….a 13-year-old can’t consent to sex with a 30+-year-old. I know they aged Dany in the show, but she is still under 18.
Like, thank you for at least acknowledging the second one for it, but the first scene in the book wasn’t consensual either. she spent all the time before that moment shaking and crying, and did not reach a point where she went from not wanting to be his queen to wanting to. But her brother told her if she didn’t please the Khal, she would ‘wake the dragon’ i.e, he’ll beat her. so like, that is not actual consent. It’s just being scared of someone else more.
If I remember correctly, that Jaime/Cersei scene resembles the scene from the books.
🤷🏽♀️
I like how it was ‘found’, as though it had been missing somewhere on a beach or something. Hee. I did wish that they’d followed the book’s Dany/Drogo scene, but I suppose things were just easier to get across with how they ended up making it. I’ve always found the fan love of Drogo/Dany Stockholm syndrome a bit puzzling.
I read this earlier from another article- I had a feeling as soon as it hit wotw we were in for it…
Count me in the camp that does not think Dany and Drogo’s consummation scene had to be changed from the book- and initial pilot script- to suit her longterm arc… and this is all I’m saying on the subject.
As for the white walkers- thank you showrunners for making them silent!!! They are much more mysterious that way
Wouldn’t want to ruin the wholesome incestuous romance between two violent child murderers with sexual violence.
“Ugh. Reading this makes the rape scene in season 4 feel sort of inevitable, as if the writers didn’t understand the significance of Jaime ignoring Cersei saying “stop” from the get go.”
__________
Ugh is right.
And did I read correctly that stage direction you excerpted that “the harder he pulls her hair, the more she moans” ????
Whatever freaky sh*t two consenting adults like to do is just fine, but this scene as written was at best ambiguous and I read it as a man ignoring a woman, overpowering her, and forcing her to submit.
(Pulling her hair? Is that a thing? I knew ONE and only one woman in my entire life who thought that could be an acceptable aspect of consensual S&M roll-playing. But the scene above as written is sexual violence – with a tinge of that delusional predatory mindset: “oh, she says no but she really means yes.”)
King Beyond the Wall II,
The reasons for the pilot being reshot was apparently that a lot of exposition was left out and this confused people, so the early viewers didn’t grasp that Jaime and Cersei were siblings, for example, and it appears there were acting concerns (GRRM was apparently fine with Tamzin Merchant as Dany but having seen her performances in other things, I’m less convinced by that).
I also wonder if Jennifer Ehle realised partway through the pilot shoot that she was not going to be able to manage a full-time commitment to the show having just given birth and being based in NYC, and made the producers and HBO aware of that quite early on.
It’s also worth noting that the pilot wasn’t a complete write-off, as several entire scenes were retained into episode 101 proper (Robert and Ned in the crypt, Ned and Jaime’s “when I fight a man for real” conversation, Robert thanking Ned for accepting his offer just as they’re about to leave on the hunt). The most fun bit is when Cersei and Catelyn are talking to Sansa during the feast, where all of Sansa’s coverage comes from the pilot shoot and the shots of Cersei and Catelyn are from the reshoot, in two completely different castles, one in Scotland and one in Northern Ireland.
At 7:10 pm, in the Comments section under the prior article, I asked the same rhetorical question.
Adam Whitehead,
Hmmm that would explain Neds wet pull back hair in the crypts and feast scenes
According to the commentary on the episode, the Dany/Drogo scene was changed at the behest of the actors, who didn’t feel they could make the scene work as it was originally written, roughly corresponding with the books. TBH I’ve always been icked out by the book scene’s attempt to make the scene seem consensual, for the reasons outlined by Kim above. YMMV.
As far as I remember from interviews etc a lot of the changes between pilots were nuts and bolts storytelling/exposition stuff – the kind of thing that might seem minor but makes the difference between the audience being able to follow it or being completely lost. Much clearer exposition about how the Lannisters are related to each other; cutting straight from “The Targaryens are gone” “Not all of them” to Dany and Viserys, so we immediately know who they are; etc. Plus they added a scene with the Starks hanging out and being nice at the beginning so we have a sense of them as characters – given that we can’t actually see into their heads in the show. And some other bits and bobs.
Ten Bears,
I think two things are at work: (i) GOT and HBO used to do a lot of sex (they still do!) So I think they wanted sex in various shocking situations; and (ii) They wanted to paint Jaime to be as villainous as possible. He was being set up for his identity/redemption arc – the biggest one in the series. This is also why they made him kill his cousin when the book did not have this incident. Rape was a bad idea – usually is.
I think the changes were good choices, but I still find Ned and Benjen’s hair jarring from the original to the reshoot.
Anything interesting about the apparently filmed scene with the Mad King flashback?
Rape occurs all over the planet on a regular basis, it would be hypocritical to deny it. But if you were to witness one, I hope you would interfere or at least call the police. Watching passively while such a despicable crime is being committed is called voyeurism, and this is the kind of persons filmmakers turn spectators into when they force them to watch people being abused or tortured while they are totally unable to come to their assistance. I think in a way it violates the conscience of many viewers. Some, of course, may get a kick out of those scenes, and it is why in many countries public executions were banned to discourage such voyeurism. Hollywood obviously saw an unsatisfied demand and rushed to supply it. There is, however, a trope called an ellipsis, which allows creators to suggest what is going on, without forcing you to watch it. It would have been enough to show Dany being led to her wedding night shaking with fear, and then show her haunted (or satisfied ) face the next morning.
That’s exactly why. She realized that she just wasn’t ready for the undertaking after having so recently given birth. I read that in an interview.
Personally, I’m still disappointed about it. I do think that Michelle Fairley is a great actress and she did a good job with Catelyn, but I adore Jennifer Ehle and I was SOOO excited when I found out she was cast as Catelyn. I’m not a fan of the character in the books, but I truly believed that she could make the character work for me. I think she would have done a brilliant, wonderful job with Catelyn, in a different way than Fairley did. I was so disappointed when I found out she was no longer playing the part.
I know that pretty much everyone else is happy with Fairley’s Catelyn, but for me, it will always be a case of what might have been. Ah well. At least, the actress they did cast was a great actress and fit the book version of the character.
JenniferH,
Agreed. Really love Jennifer Ehle, I think I would have been a bit more warm to Cat had she continued to play her.
I enjoy Ehle’s work, but she looks (and is) much younger than Sean Bean. and Fairley brings a spitfire quality to Cat. Ehle choosing to step aside may’ve been for the best.
I like political Cat from the book but I also like the show version. Rewatching S1 right now and it’s pretty much all on Ned’s ridiculous and unjustified loyalty to Robert – almost would prefer if the Cat shared a bit of responsibility for what happens to spread things out a little bit!
Jaime never listens when Cersei says no in the books either. They seem to have a sort of “consensual nonconsent” thing going on which is to me quite creepy but I guess is what does it for some people. They certainly never seem to be loving or caring of one another. Cersei returns the favor in S7 by ignoring Jaime’s no (not that he fights back much). I think it’s supposed to be a sign in both mediums that it’s not a healthy relationship (obviously).
Ten Bears,
sadly yes Hairpulling is such a thing now… though I doubt very many people actual like it. Honestly that’s what this scene sounds like is a parody of the most common kind of vaguely misogynist porno out there.
I thought that Catelyn having royal ambitions was more book accurate (iirc). At least something was drastically different in that scene with Ned in bed with the letter from the books. The show does its best to give her those matriarchal qualities (for her own children – at least), as opposed to the books then.
The ink is dry.
“The time Jon Snow got wasted” … honestly closer to the book version and Kit 😂 And those illustrations by Lena Vargas Afanasieva are pretty cool!
Hilarious GoT Tennis Match:
https://www.behance.net/gallery/57354169/GOT-OPEN-A-Tennis-Game-of-Thrones
I think it’s most notable here as Sophie Turner looks indeed younger in some scenes than in others.
Please remember that this is a fictional universe. There is no “age of consent” in Westeros or Essos as far as we know. Even in our world the age of consent varies. Where I come from, it’s 16, and in some countries it’s lower.
NinaD,
Yup, Ehle looks younger, but on the other hand not too young to be a mother of older teenage children in a world where women are married off as soon as they start to menstruate. It would have made sense to me.
Even more so because she looks a lot more like Sophie Turner than Michelle Fairley does – and isn’t that a lot of Sansa’s story?
That said, I love Michelle Fairley’s performance, and I can suspend disbelief, so all’s well.
Kim,
I’m with you. I’ve never understood the appeal of Daenerys and Drogo’s relationship. I’m not judging anyone who does find their story romantic but, for me, the power imbalance always bothered me
Well, you’re correct that that isn’t actual consent, however it still isn’t technically rape, for the following reason. Rape requires that the person you are having sex with disregard your lack of consent. In the situation you mentioned, Drogo does give her a choice. Her consent is driven out of fear of Viserys. Drogo is not the one threatening her.
This would be similar to situations where one person forces two others to have sex with each other. There’s no consent, but the two people having sex aren’t raping each other. They’re being forced by an outside pressure.
In this case, Dany is being forced by an outside pressure, while Drogo is explicitly asking her if she consents. So it’s a little murky.
As for the 18 thing, there are a couple points. First of all, in most parts of the world, and indeed most parts of Europe as well as most states in the US, the age of consent is between 15 and 17.
18 is actually an outlier. For some reason it’s become the universally accepted age of consent, but it’s not the norm. France is 15, Germany and Italy are 14, Switzerland is 16, as is the UK and most of Canada and Australia, etc…
So I wouldn’t say that being 18 is the ultimate gauge of consent. The legal age of consent is quite frankly an arbitrary line that has to be drawn for practical reasons, because without it we wouldn’t be able to protect kids. But it’s not like you magically gain an ability to consent on your 18th birthday that you didn’t have the day before.
And who exactly qualifies as a minor varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Certain individuals below the age of consent are sometimes capable of consenting, but the law invalidates their consent as a way of trying to protect everyone in that age group. That’s why statutory rape is called statutory rape. It isn’t technically rape, as no one was forced, but it becomes rape by virtue of the statute, aka the law.
In a fantasy medieval setting, 18 would absolutely not be considered the age of consent. At that time, it was pretty much if you’ve entered puberty, you were considered an adult, sexually speaking. There was no concept of adolescence. Childhood ended where adulthood began, which was the onset of puberty, basically.
The question of when people are emotionally and psychologically capable of consenting to sex is more interesting and more pertinent. And the answer to that question is that it entirely depends upon the individual. Some may be more than capable at 15, others won’t be until 18 or 19, or maybe even later.
But in most cases, I’d say by 16 or 17 you’re capable of understanding sex and freely consenting to it.
18 is fairly late both historically and in today’s society.
Bottom line is, respect whatever the legal age of consent is in your society, but let’s not think that 18 is some magical age that gives people abilities they didn’t previously have.
People progressively develop the ability to consent over the course of their adolescence, at different rates, and it’s entirely possible that people in the 15 to 17 age can have sexual relations that are consensual.
Yes, hair pulling is a thing. Some people do enjoy it.
I don’t know how to feel about this Jaime and Cersei scene as scripted. It could be meant to be role play, like consensual non consent, or consensual rough sex.
I think that’s the implication. At the same time, it’s ambiguous, and the disastrous Season 4 scene does not help matters.
As we know, the actors, writers, and director of that episode claimed that the Sept scene was intended to be consensual.
I have no idea how they could be so tone deaf, because everyone who saw that scene read it as rape, but apparently they have some strange ideas about how consent works for Jaime and Cersei.
Overall I very much dislike it. I have no issue with rape being portrayed in the series. Just like murder and other odious crimes, it’s a part of our world and a part of GRRM’s world.
But it does not fit with Jaime’s character at all, and does not need to be portrayed as kinky.
Jaime is not a rapist. As I said, if he and Cersei have some consensual non consent role play going on, maybe I could understand it, but still, the way they’ve written these scenes feels wrong for the characters, and highly ambiguous at best.
Nick20,
That scene in 4×03 was only a problem because Jaime returned at the end of season 3. If he would have returned in 4×03 like the books it would be more “fitting”, it’s still not okay but we can understand more (like in the books) why he acted that way.
Given that the pilot had a different actress for both Catelyn and Daenerys I try to inagine what these sniplets would have looked like but then I’m totally glad that we got Michelle and Emilia in the end.
Kim,
She’s not under 18. It’s illegal to portray a minor character in sex/nudity even if the actor is older than 18.
Petra,
appeal is that both actors are hot.
I do find the 4×03 Cersei and Jaime sex scene really disturbing and scary, but I definitely do not understand the controversy about it. To me it completely fits with both Jaime’s and Cersei’s character and with their arc. Of course their relationship is wrong and complicated for so many reasons that I won’t develop here, but still to me it makes sense.
I am one the few who actually really believe in her love for Jaime, but the thing is she is somehow mentally ill or unstable. Among her many problems, she hardly lets herself show feelings to others and has a weird way of representing love in her head. Cersei is a hateful woman, she is angry and « violent » by nature. And to me, she is the reason why their whole love and sex relationship looks so consensual/non consensual, rape to some people. She must have been the one who sort of started it, and Jaime just followed. Or it came from both but I mean to me she’s still the one with the most disturbed mind and I fully understand her POV about love and sex considering her personnality. It’s like some power game. This woman is literally driven by the idea of power and take over and stuff.
Jaime definitely has more tenderness and morality than Cersei, however he is obsessed with her and is entirely driven by it. This is why Jaime had this magnificent arc in season 3 where he showed his best bits and redeemed himself, FAR FROM CERSEI, and this is why in season 4 REUNITING WITH CERSEI he lets himself fall again into darkness and has that sex thing in the sept (I sound so manichean but you all know what I mean, this show is the opposite of manicheanism).
Moreover you could understand the Sept scene in another way : in season 4 Cersei was being a bitch to Jaime since he returned because he « comes back after all this time with no apologies and one hand and expects everything to be the same ». She refuses him to approach her, to love her (all to use him somehow later and get him to do what she wants I suppose). She mentally tortures him when all he wants is love. Then they lose their son, Cersei is in pain, she kisses him, but then pushes him away like ‘ew’, and Jaime just loses it.
To me the Sept scene happened for both theses reasons, so yeah it was justified. I really don’t know how to call it, consensual or rape. Depends on the way you look at it. I think it’s both. Horrifying but this is GOT.
So to me the sex scene between the two in the original pilot is perfectly right, D&D are not perverses, it’s just the way things are for these twins. Jaime and Cersei are definitely my favorite characters for this fascinating complexity, but damn it’s still disturbing…
Hmph. I wish they kept the Dany/Drogo consensual scene because it mirrored the books.
I would have also been in for a more (outwardly) ruthless Catelyn. Family, Duty, Honor in that order. The way she was portrayed in the books, her family was her duty. So, of course, she would want the best for Sansa, even if she didn’t initially know he was a monster. Besides, all of the juicy bits in the story early on happen in her pov chapters – it would have made her on-screen character more interesting imho had they left those bits in.
SO GLAD Ehle was replaced with Fairley.
I think you’re thinking of her earlier work because as she looked even when the Pilot was done, she certainly looked old enough to play the part and VERY capable of bring a spitfire quality to Cat. Sure, she’s younger, but at the time of the Pilot she would have been 42 to Bean’s 52. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Of course, none of this matters now, but I’m just saying looks-wise or performance-wise, Ehle sooooo could have done the job.
JenniferH,
And with make up etc they could always having actors made older or younger. Look at outlander. Season 1 they portrait characters that are 10 years younger then they really are. And now in season 4 10 years older then they really are. And it is done perfectly. Vikings is also another show that did it perfectly. It’s more if an actor is capable of it.
Sorry, but the Outlander “aging up” looks horrible. They put a couple grey streaks in Claire’s hair and called it a day. This Is Us does it a little better.
LOL yep! I pray and pray that I’ll look as good at “50” as Claire and Jamie do 😉 Maybe if I keep using Retin-A and sacrifice a few virgins…
😀😀 This season of True Detective has done it as good as I’ve seen with the aging up of Mahershala Ali.
Oh wow, I just checked that out – they really did a good job. That looks as natural as I’ve ever seen aged-up make-up look. I also thought they did a suitable job aging up Mandy Moore in This is Us.
I gotta admit, in regard to Outlander, a part of me is glad they made little-to-no effort in aging up Claire and Jamie because I don’t actually mind Sam Heughan looking just the same as he always has 😉 I’m terrible.
That is not done wrong, if you watched season 3 you know she was already fully grey, and she dye her hair. She still does in season 4 but only she keeps out a couple of hairs. It’s also explained by the makers before season 4 started that she will keep on dying her hair. (I read it was in the books also)
And as for Jaime Red hairs become gray much much later, . That’s why his hair is more Auburn (hopefully I typed it right) and not grey-ish.
So I have to disagree with you, yes they should have explained that Claire still dye her hair in season 4 but I think we could think that for ourselfs.
As for how do you call that in english, those lines in your face. The writer in the books said how much was needed.
This is Us I never watched so couldn’t give my opinion on that.
Adrianacandle,
True, they look younger a little bit, but it is explained in the books that they both look younger than they really are, that they didn’t have that much lines in their faces as others in their age. (which is a good thing for them because studies shows that people who look younger than they really are tend to live longer). And it’s not uncommon. My stepmom is 59 but she looks max 45, and she dye her hair else she may not. And my father is 58 but looks 65 haha, so it depends on the person.
but I have to admit they did it better in 2×13 to show the aging process, Claire looked more older there.
Jack Bauer 24,
True detective is done perfectly. Today episode 6, can’t wait. Best season for me. I hope the ending is worthwhile.
Adrianacandle,
As a gay guy I have to admit with you. He is a delight to be watched. Did you know he auditioned for Loras Tyrell (and some more roles in GoT he is a huge fan). As for other handsome men, Outlander have many in my opinion. Especially since season 3.
ps. I’m not finished with season 4, so no spoilers please. Need a couple of episodes still.
Not to mention Mahershala’s acting. I mean, he’s portraying the character in three different periods. Same with Stephen Dorff. Both are knocking it out of the park. I’m enjoying this season quite a bit, so hopefully it can stick the landing these next two weeks.
mau,
The ink is dry.
kevin1989,
Mmhmmm!! Sam Heughan is beautiful and so much fun to watch!! I also really love Lord John Grey <3 <3 <3
Personally, I don’t think Claire looked much older at all in 2×13. They styled her differently, totally, but to me, the few streaks of grey and more sophisticated make-up/styling was sort of a nod toward, “Yes, this is 1968 Dr. Claire Randall, top surgeon, with a 20-year old daughter,” but… it’s hard to believe that 35/36-year old Caitriona Balfe of the flawless porcelain skin with perfect firmness is 50 – in 1968. However, on that note, I think Balfe is the perfect person to play Claire, in both personality and appearance – especially with the emphasis on Claire’s perfect skin.
Now, that being said, there are probably cases that can prove me totally and utterly wrong but Outlander’s lack of aging Claire or Jamie was definitely apparent (to me) because they looked no different than they did before (with the exception of styling). But honestly, I don’t really mind it.
I agree there are definitely people who look much younger these days! With the advances of skin care, preventative measures (sunscreen), good genes, healthy diets, derma procedures, active ingredients in skincare, avoiding smoking, drinking, tanning, etc. there’s a lot we can do now to maintain a youthful appearance for far longer than before. There are some dermatologists who say that all you need is tretinoin or some form of retinoid combined with a good sunscreen containing solid UVA filters to prevent and address photoaging. But in the 1940s-60s? And especially in the 1740s-70s? I don’t know, dude.. Especially considering Jamie spends those 20 years during which he and Claire are parted living in hard, hard circumstances under the blistering sun, in terrible weather conditions, in prison, living off the land… And Jamie manages to look just as youthful as ever (but maybe needs some eyeglasses once or twice! ;D).
I mean, there’s looking young for your age in the 1700s and then there’s… well, a willing suspension of disbelief (that I don’t mind so much because Sam Heughan ;D)
Adrianacandle,
True, but the makers can’t be blamed for how young those actors look, be honest even the actors I would give 5/10 years of their real age. I know a lot of 30 year old that look like them (age wise)
And Claire is amazing, her character is with much depth and personality, you don’t see that very often in television. And true Balfe is perfect for Claire. And which season do you prefer? Me season 3 (and 4 second). Season 3 I found every episode worthy of 9.0+ rating. And the jokes were amazing there, that chinese fellow is amazing.
And did you read the books? I’m wondering if they are worth reading.
But back to GoT. Only 62 days to go (and a couple of hours)
I think there’s still some Skroth that can be heard in the first scene of the first episode. There was a season 1 marathon on HBO2 this past weekend and I can recall hearing some cackling sounds during that scene.
You’re right but I think the point is that the producers and creators could do more with make-up to make it so, despite Balfe and Heughan’s actual ages or how old they appear, Claire and Jamie appear older when the characters are older in a time (or times) when skin care wasn’t the thing it is now. Claire had access to cold cream in the 40s-60s. Jamie had access to… mud? 🙂
I agree. I really, really like Claire – I think she’s one of my top fave characters in general. I didn’t like Claire at first but that changed, especially during the 20 year period when she is separated from Jamie and I grew to love her. The separation from Jamie was tragic, what her relationship with Frank had become was tragic, but I really liked that she poured herself into doing something productive, hard, good, and beneficial instead of wholly succumbing to the grief – which is hard to do, to avoid that grief taking over everything, and it’s not something everybody can manage. Claire definitely wasn’t able to really get away from her grief, but she focused on doing something with herself instead of allowing her grief and bitterness to overcome everything (although, it tainted and affected some things, of course). Claire’s determination to become a doctor (and in a time when female doctors were far less common) and to be part of something “bigger than [herself]” in the face of her grief won my admiration, as it does when I see people like this in real life. And her efforts to try to parent Brianna the best she could, she and Frank doing their best to build a stable home for Brianna, I really loved Claire for all of this.
I really loved season 3 too! That’s my favourite season! I liked all the seasons, but if I had to rank, it would go season 3, season 2, season 1, season 4. I enjoyed season 4 quite a bit (I love Lord John Grey) but I’m not a big Brianna and/or Roger fan. Well, I was more a fan of swinging 60s flower child Brianna before she went through the stones. Not a huge fan but I liked her 🙂 I really liked how the show showed us more of the relationship between Brianna and Frank, which I found really endearing. I know Frank obviously loves Brianna in the books but I loved seeing more scenes between them in the show 🙂
I’m working my way through the books! I’ve read the first one, and parts of the follow books (especially the parts that really interested me in the show, so I’d read those chapters in the books!) How about you? Have you read them all?
I know… Game of Thrones season 8 is coming so soon. I don’t think I’m ready for it to be over and to have this be it. There isn’t a character left who I don’t care about, I care about what happens to them all at this point, so when one or many of them inevitably dies, oooooh brutal.
Ten Bears,
You knew one woman your entire life who liked her hair pulled, so therefore minimal women must like that sort of thing? How about lots of people like having their hair pulled.
Lots of people also roleplay “I’ll say stop, but I don’t want you to stop” – that’s why safe words were invented.
The problem with interpreting this scene as rape or not-rape, is that we have no context of the before or after, or any insight into what the sexual dynamic between these two was intended to be, unless you’re getting word from the author’s mouth.
Adrianacandle,
I loved seasons 1 and 2 of Outlander, but for me, seasons 3 and 4 were sub par. Without getting into too much detail here, I thought the first part of season 3 was a bore and the last half when Jaime and Claire reunited was disappointing for me. I also don’t like some of the new characters such as Young Ian. I also can’t stand Brianna at all. She’s insufferable. She ruined most of season 4 for me. I really tried my best to like her, but she’s just too bratty of a human being for me to warm up to.
There’s just too much repetition in the show now. Too many coincidental reunions, too many scenarios where one lover disappears only for the other to have to undertake some rescue mission to save them. Wash, rinse, repeat over and over again.
I also think the show is better when the setting is in Scotland. To me, Scotland is just as important to the show as any major character. Whenever they leave Scotland, I find that the show loses focus. I had a feeling I wasn’t going to like the show as much when they left Scotland and I was right.
It would also be nice to have a more interesting, engaging plot line in season 5. I thought a whole lot of nothing happened in season 4. To be more specific, a plot line that doesn’t require rape would be a good start. I’m not as squeamish as others seem to be, but I think the show uses it way too much. I’m pretty sure every main character and supporting character on that show has been raped at one point or another.
I have never seen Outlander – but I have read articles about their spectacular love/sex scenes. I do not know what Season or who was involved – I think it was the main couple.
It would be something if GOT could muster one major love/sex scene that could merit an article for how beautiful/tasteful, fitting and relevant the event.
(Grey Worm and Missy got nice reviews some thought it was irrelevant to the main story.)
Mango,
Yea, some liked it and some didn’t. I had an appreciation for the GM/Missandei love scene, but at the same time, I usually fast forward through it on re-watch.
Mr Derp,
Yeah, I do not generally re-watch anything. Not that I am against it, I just am always behind on too many things. When I do it is usually accidental but I do enjoy it!
You made me think though – why would anyone rewatch a sex scene?. Is it a sort of voyeurism/pornography when you are enjoying the sex action again if you already know what occurred and the role this event played in the progression of the story. Unless the sex scene has some other action in it beside the sex itself – such as another person interrupts and causes drama!
Maybe that your action of fast-forwarding it is prolly the thing to do.
Mr Derp,
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. Season 3 is my favourite but because I read ahead, I was already pre-interested in seeing some of that play out on screen (Helwater, Claire’s studies, the relationship with Frank, the representation of the 50s and 60s in Claire’s story, Claire telling Brianna about Jamie).
Seasons 1 and 2 were way more focused, I think. They did a nice job of developing Claire and Jamie, the group of characters surrounding them, Claire’s place in that group, establishing Claire’s relationship with Frank, how that transitioned to falling in love with Jamie, Jamie’s relationship with Claire, and these two characters developing together. Season 3 lacked a lot of this, I think. We were whipping through new and existing secondary characters like acne patches, going through years and years in the space of a few episodes, and there were so many storylines. It wasn’t just Claire and Jamie going to Paris to prevent Culloden in season 2 or Claire adjusting to life in the 18th century while trying to get back to the 20th century, later deciding to establish a life with Jamie in season 1 – it was 20 storylines in 13 episodes.
I’ve seen similar criticisms of Brianna and I have to agree with some of them. And yeah, it’d be great if there was a storyline in season 5 that didn’t have rape. It’s like the show has a mandate of at least one rape per season – sometimes two. And the attempted rapes… I think you’re right. I think nearly every main and supporting character has been raped. It’s more of a challenge to figure out who hasn’t been – yet. I was going to say Young Ian but nope! Season 3…
I see it clearly before my eyes, you watching GoT, a bag of potato chips next to you, you take a piece of potato chips out of the bag. And you wisper: There is is again, I didn’t know White Walkers were in that scene.
Tomorrow I’m going to watch season 1 again. (Books and Show both again before the last season. Some days I read somedays I watch)
And I gonna listen very good to the first scene.
Adrianacandle,
Ey don’t blame the Mud, it contains lot of nutrition.
And Frank is the most sweetest guy I saw in outlander, the way he raised Brienne, that’s a real dad.
Season 4 is great but something felt rushed I think it needs 2 season instead of 1 (the book like GoT season 3 and 4)
And Briana I dislike somehow don’t know why, Roger is too sweet for her. I hope her character becomes better. And what I disliked about season 4 is Longhaire, I really hoped that she got her redemption here (like I hoped every season)
And no never read the books but I think I will after I read GoT again. And strangely I read book 4 is the best but season 4 lacks somehow.
Mr Derp,
For me the first part of season 3 was my favorite of the whole series. I cried my eyes out many times there (and also the best received if we look at imdb). And about Briana I have to agree, I read she is much better in the books, and true about the rape, it seems to happen so we could like her character. I don’t know if it happens in the books. Even when season 4 lacks one of my favorite episode of the whole show is in it. And it’s not the reunion with Briana. It’s the episode with Jaime’s son, the underlying emotion is just amazing there, and that’s what make that show great imo. And season 4 started of great with Riverrun and the whole Indian plot, but Briana part took it down. They should have had that in season 5.
Mango,
I always skip the sex scenes in GoT with reruns, especially 1×07 scene 😛 But the scenes in outlander doesn’t feel like sex scenes to me, I don’t know why, it feels more like love than lust. (Like Dany and Drogo at the end of 1×02 which was very powerful)
Adrianacandle,
Is that also in the books the rapes? or only in the show?
ps I love Murtagh in the show, and that aunt Jacosta is awesome. So that was my last long comment about outlander. And now I’m going to sing the leadsong. (not really going to read clash of Kings further)
kevin1989,
You are right about mud… 😉 I just spent 30 min with Supermud on my face!!
I’ve seen a few Reddit threads going over why Brianna tends to be disliked. There are times I find the character to be annoying in the books as well as in the show but I hear she gets better as they go along. I feel Brianna can be… kind of obnoxious, a bit self-righteous and unfortunately, I don’t think the actress playing her is particularly strong. She’s beautiful but I think she’s a bit wooden. I did like Brianna better in the 60s storyline but the character wasn’t carrying that story – it was Claire.
Roger rubbed me the wrong way in season 4. I was lukewarm on him in season 3, I thought he could be cute sometimes (like him watching Dark Shadows), but I went cold on him in the fourth season. He and Bree are annoying together. Maybe because they’re not developed characters? We’ve seen snapshots of Bree and Roger as kids but we only see them as kids. Next thing we know, they’re these adults who are now also protagonists while, with Claire and Jamie, we’ve spent three books during which they and their relationship were developed. Neither Bree or Roger are really developed IMO so I find it hard to invest in them.
You pointed out a thing that I did really like in Bree’s storyline and that was how the show depicted her relationship with Frank. I loved that too.
Yeah, in both the books and the show, rape is thing – it seems to be a thing that happens at least once a book to a primary or secondary character (at least in books 1 through 4).
I liked the expanded storyline of Jocasta and Murtagh too!
Okay, something GoT related!! …. I’d love to see this pilot. Is this the pilot Kit Harington referenced when he said:
I hope he pisses them off too much!! 🙂 😉 😉 😉
This is the last I’ll say about Outlander since we’re on a GoT thread even though I have a lot to say about it.
It’s because every time they are together they argue and act childish. I mean, there’s really no reason to WANT them to be together other than we’re just supposed to feel that way because the show says so.
True. And I agree.
I’ll retire my long Outlander comments now too but this has been fun to discuss with you guys 🙂
Will,
Yup. And Tyrion’s slightly blonder hair in his exchange with the Hound when they’re preparing to leave on the hunt (and the Hound’s makeup is different), and especially Theon’s hair being much blonder.
GREOG,
lol a little defensive about this aren’t we…?
I think someone’s been watching a wee bit much pR0n…
Adam Whitehead, The Hound’s hair was different, too. GLAD they fixed that mess.
Adrianacandle,
True, I’m with you. But to think of it game of thrones has a one rape or almost rape per season. Dany in 1×02. 1×06 reports of gangraped by gregor and his men which was one of the reasons eddard send beric after gregor. 1×08 dothraki raping women on screen. Cercei explained to eddard that Robert sometimes force himself on her. Sansa in 2×06. 2×10 the starkmen that brienne killed had rape one lady they hanged and are talking about it. She almost got raped in episode 3 which result in the scene where Jaime lost his hand. Theon in 3×03. 4×01 the asault at the end poor inn women. Cercei in 4×03 even when it was not the purpose from the makers it was received that way. Season 4 gregor raped Elia Martell is a mayor plot point. Sansa in 5×06. Ramsay is also the result of rape. Roose raped his mother. Casters wife’s by caster and night watch deserters. Gilly almost got raped in season 5 which Sam could be the hero.
And I forgot probably some scenes. Season 6 and 7 is I think the only seasons where rape wasn’t in the show. Before it was multiple times per season with a season of only 10 episodes. Where outlander had one per season. With 13 episodes a season. My point is more that deep said outlander put one rape in per season as plot point but the way it is portrait I found outlander handling it much better. Where in got it is portrait as a standard in the show.
Ps I really want to see the unaired pilot now.
Mr Derp,
+1 Jamie and Claire feel more natural.
—
Today I’m taking a day of off reading and going to start the show. But I’m skipping the sex scenes. Don’t really care about them. Only 2 months left. And I want to read the books and watch the show again. One last ride (till book 6 comes out)
Kevin1989,
Have fun with your viewing!! 🙂
Re: Rape in Got and Outlander. You’re right in that there is a lot of sexual violence in GoT. Ever since my soap days, I’ve found rape has been used and relied upon quite a bit for plot/drama/shock/redemption purposes in TV, film, and media and I think it’s a problem. I tend to really dislike rape storylines but because of the personal nature, I tend to avoid discussing it in detail. In Outlander, I was primarily referring to rapes we see that happen on-screen to major/secondary characters we follow as a dramatic plot point in that character’s storyline (Jamie in season 1, Mary and Fergus in season 2, blackmailing Jamie into sex in season 3, Young Ian in season 3, Brianna in season 4). Personally, I thought there were problems with these stories and it was one of the few problems I had with the series but that’s another Outlander discussion. To me, it seems really overdone – so much so that it seems to be a right of passage somehow. In GoT, you’re right in that we see major characters raped on-screen (Dany in season 1, Cersei in season 4, Sansa in season 5) and in my assessment, I hadn’t yet touched on the attempted rapes of major characters, rapes of minor characters/extras, or offscreen/mentioned rapes – which adds to it. Regardless, you’re right that there is a lot of sexual violence and your assessment highlights the large amount as well. Like I had mentioned earlier, I think rape can be often overused as a plot/shock/drama device. Not always, but yeah.
Adrianacandle,
“Re: Rape in Got and Outlander. You’re right in that there is a lot of sexual violence in GoT. Ever since my soap days, I’ve found rape has been used and relied upon quite a bit for plot/drama/shock/redemption purposes in TV, film, and media and I think it’s a problem…”
_________
Here’s my final (maybe) gripe about the overuse of rape in TV and films as a means to propel the female character’s story forward. In real life, it’s not something that women “overcome” and makes them “stronger.” I’ve met brilliant, vivacious women who drank themselves into oblivion, gained hundreds of pounds, and changed personalities completely after an assault. Very rarely do they get the opportunity for “revenge” against their attacker.*
Let’s turn it around: How receptive would an audience be if an action hero played by Arnold Schwarzenegger or Bruce Willis had his d*ck chopped off in the opening act? I don’t recall any movie or TV show in which the hero overcomes genital mutilation and emerges “stronger” for it.
While I can’t say for sure that overuse of rape as a lazy plot device somehow normalizes it, I do think there have to be better ways to inspire or motivate a female character rather than have her raped and brutalized. It’s not normal. Sure, it happens way too often in the real world – so why perpetuate it on screen?
* (The only time I saw a woman satisfyingly turn the tables in a movie was Rooney Mara as Lisbeth Salander in the criminally underrated film, “The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.” Loved her in “Carole” too.)
Last observation… Every now and then I’ll catch an old black & white movie from the ’40s or ’50s on TCM (Turner Classic Movies channel). I am flabbergasted how often a scene between a man and a woman arguing ends with the guy slapping her across the face – and then they kiss or she ceases her supposedly “hysterical” tirade. Just once I would’ve liked to see the woman knee the jerk in the groin and shut him up.
I was going to go off on a rant against James Toback – the director who for years held himself out as a “pickup artist” but was really just another Harvey Weinstein-type piece of sh*t rapist slob, but I’d better stop here.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you.
—
finished episode 1. And I’m very glad we got Fairley. She is amazing as Cat. Both sides she has in her, the sternness and hate for Jon but also the warmth that she has for her children.
And I already have a question sort of: Will we see Illyrio Mopatis in season 8. Maybe as an Ally for Dany.
Mango,
I think the murder might just be a bit worse but what do I know 🙂
Ten Bears,
Absolutely, and you articulated some of the problems I have with rape storylines in fictional media. I really dislike when it’s used as a strategy to get Character X from Point A to Point B, add drama/shock/edginess and/or horror to a story/scene, used to redeem a bad-girl (or boy)-type character, make a character ‘stronger’, make the villain more evil, give the character something to ‘overcome’, or as a way to provide a motive to pursue a satisfying revenge arc/conclusion (and it’s not like revenge can un-rape anybody, nothing can do that. It’s not a fix-it). I can only speak for myself but in my experience, it’s something you have to live with on a day to day basis, it’s non-reversible, it’s dealt with and coped with in a variety of ongoing ways, and it fundamentally changes somebody on a very deep level.
I agree, there are better ways to motivate a character, provide them with a backstory, give them a reason to pursue a certain path, get them from point A to point B, etc. without having the character brutalized.
kevin1989,
I also really enjoy Michelle Fairley as Catelyn. I think she’s great!
ygritte,
Just saw this – yes, this is funny. Murder and rape are worse than murder alone? right?
And the attempted murder is in the context of a decision-making conundrum – what would you do to protect people that you love? It sets up an interesting discussion.
Rape is very difficult to use as a “discussion event” unless you want to discuss perspectives on what is consent.
Murder and rape together weigh down any discussion with too many issues. Too much going on.
Mango,
ygritte,
Frankly speaking I don’t understand why people claim that rape is overused in GoT. I saw the “statistics”, but in fact it has never been used to instigate character development. Dany & Drogo was a mess (books first of all) but there was no rape: just sex between two consenting but untrained adults which went wrong in the beginning but improved considerably after a cunsultation with a sexpert. Sansa? Rape was made a part of her story but it wasn’t used as the sole factor of her character development – quite on the contrary. And most character developments were instigated by losses: Bran lost his ability to walk; Jaime – his sword hand; Tyrion and Varys – their intimate parts; Jon – his life. Others lost people they loved and in general it was death not rape that played as the major development engine in GoT.
I actually don’t want to read this but, at the same time, I want to know what happens. And this said while I haven’t watched most of the seasons!