In the newest episode of Game of Thrones, the Stark gang finds themselves in a tight spot, with their journey around the North to recruit other houses not going very well. By their accounting, the small army so far consists of 2000 wildlings, 200 Hornwoods, 143 Mazins…and of course, 62 Mormonts. Up against the thousands of Bolton, Umber and Karstark men, things are looking bleak for Jon and Sansa’s cause. The siblings are at odds, with Jon wishing to fight with the army they have, while Sansa insists they need more men if they’re going to win.
It’s at this point in “The Broken Man” that Sansa is inspired by the sight of a maester’s ravens to send a letter. We’re not able to see who the letter is addressed to, or to make out the words in a regular episode watching. But now, thanks to the detective work of Reddit user CreepyPancakes, we have an answer as who will be the recipient of Sansa’s message. The contents of Sansa’s letter have been uncovered (mostly), revealing…
A request for assistance from the Knights of the Vale, and words all but confirming that the letter is meant for Littlefinger, as many have guessed.
CreepyPancakes dug around images from the episode and flipped the letter –
Until they were able to read the letter Sansa wrote.
“you promised to protect me […] Now you have a chance to fulfill your promise […] Knights of the Vale are under your command. Ride north for Winterfell. Lend us your aid and I shall see to it that you are […] rewarded.”
In Sansa’s meeting with Littlefinger, he expressed remorse for handing her over to Ramsay without knowing what he was, but with Littlefinger, you can never tell what his true emotions are. Is he truly regretful or continuing to play Sansa? Littlefinger never stops playing the game, but there may be some genuine feeling in there too, since he has a long complicated history with Sansa and her mother Catelyn. He already has indicated the Knights will be at her service, and Sansa is correct that the numbers of this new Stark army are too low. Plunging into battle with so few against the vast Bolton-Umber-Karstark alliance would be suicidal.
The question now is, is this a mistake on Sansa’s part? People were critical of her decision to withhold information from Jon after meeting with Littlefinger, and bothered by the implication that Sansa still feels tied to Littlefinger and his ways. However, she has learned a great deal from him and grown harder, and I’m intrigued by the last line- that he will be rewarded. Because Littlefinger has earned some payback, and should be justly “rewarded” for his actions.
Assuming the Knights of the Vale are brought north as she requests, will Sansa welcome Littlefinger back or will she take revenge at that point? I’m hoping for the latter.
Very intrigued by this reward.
I honestly think Sansa should tell Jon about the Vale army. There’s no reason why she would keep the secret. If she doesn’t tell him, then that’s just soap drama on D&D’s part.
Either way, I think she will tell Jon next episode.
I’m afraid the reward is her hand in marriage. It’s the only way in which LF doesn’t turn against Jon and co. after the battle is over.
I think this will be mentioned in a strategic meeting next ep with Jon and company, if Sansa does bring it up.
Jon and co. could easily force the Boltons and their allies to leave the safety of Winterfell by showing them such a small force of troops, Ramsay would want to finish the Starks off once and for all – and seeing such a small troop would bring them all out. Luring them out to fight would be dangerous as they are outnumbered by so much, they would have to hold the Boltons off until the Vale knights get there to save the day.
Unless Sansa holds back this info and simply keeps it to herself so she can come out the Hero at the end of the day.
Frack, can’t wait for Ep 9.
Here comes the negative Sansa comments saying that she is weak for going back to Littlefinger. What else would you have done if you had like a small army to go up against an army of thousands? She is desperate and needs as much help she can get and is probably just using Littlefinger for the Knights of the Vale.
http://imgur.com/2SZaAtx
You reading too much into it. Littlefinger is going to screw them over, that’s just a fact.
And rewarded – means that she will give herself to him. It is exactly that, cause she knows he wants her.
I think Jon is worst for it now, it looks like he will spend the year of waiting on the run or in jail at best.
D&D likely thought “if she accepts Littlefinger’s offer, then she has no agency of her own. So we’ll have her reject it, but when there is no other way, she’ll call on his offer, thereby giving her final deciding power.” Obviously none of this will happen in the books because GRRM will detail a logical path of power for her where she is the one who makes the decision to bring the Knights of the Vale to Winterfell.
Now, if D&D are not just giving us fan-service, then there will be some kind of repercussion for this decision. Will it be to Sansa’s detriment or Littlefinger’s?
I hope she does tell him, and they just have to wait to see if they make it in time. Hopefully that will be the only drama. But I imagine it will be more dramatic to make it more LOTR/Gandalf saves the day. So I expect that to happen.
The show has not shown Jon being told anything about Littlefinger or who he is, so Sansa would really have no good reason to not tell Jon. Neither of them know that Littlefinger was a main player in Ned’s death.
I’m of the mind that the game is all he cares about. The key scene for him comes at the foot of the throne between he and Varys. It’s all he truly cares about. He’ll be at Winterfell aiding Ramsay unless he thinks that Sansa can be manipulated more easily were she to hold Winterfell instead of Ramsay. I think it’s too easy to forget he’s betrayed every Stark that he had the chance to betray. Even if there’s feeling there for Sansa it’s completely warped by his greater desire of the throne.
How Littlegfinger will join the Battle of the Bastards:
http://imgur.com/gallery/8SNUdkf
LMFAO.
Why would Jon be on the run? That makes absolutely no sense. I don’t know who’s seen the episode titles, but ep 10 clearly shows shit is going to go down. The Long Night is coming.
r-hard,
The Sand Snakes gonna do it, at least in the show for sure. Because TV omitted her enamormend with flames.
Very disappointed that there wasn’t something more clever going on.
Edit: With 13 episodes left after this season, is it even feasible for them to extend some sort of nonsense with LF and “political intrigue”. I feel like the time for all of that is over, especially as we head into winter. I think she’ll “reward” him with death and be done with it.
Mawk,
Because Littlefinger wants to have Sansa all for himself, no one to stand between them, no one to guard her, etc…
So much of the speculation around this show is always trying to generate twists when the obvious answer is almost invariably the correct one (I myself have fallen prey to that at some points).
Her attitude about writing the letter makes no sense if the recipient was anybody other than Littlefinger.
LawofFury,
Littlefinger will show up and save them. THEN he will try to screw them over. At which point…I’ve no clue.
I find this entire situation objectionable, but yeah, people for whatever reason like to imagine crazy twists, for both show and books. Neither works that way. Of course Sansa wrote Littlefinger; it fits with everything else going on.
LawofFury,
If its Sansa’s decision, I doubt Jon will stop her to the point that they have to lock him up. Jon knows the Walkers are the enemy, he allied with Wildlings, to him LF is just a Lord – he doesn’t know him like we do.
Now I can see LF trying to push Jon out, because he’s another “stone” in Sansa’s way to Lady of Winterfell. But Rickon and Bran still out there and everyone knows it now.
Until Bran shows up telling everyone Jon is really a Targ – then I can see LF backing him.
Ingelheim,
Are you effing serious? Marriage?? I would rage lol.
I REALLY hope this is a “reward” and not an actually reward. I hope she is playing him.
Kill the fucker already. Isnt it time his story ends, and rightfully so at the hands of Sansa?
If they extend this LF shit till next season, I would be annoyed.
It’s good to see Sansa doing something wise for a change, and I think this is the wise move. The only move. I do wish she’d have consulted with Jon, at the very least. I would consult with Davos, as well, but I realize that Brienne gave Sansa reason not to bring Davos into the loop. But yeah. With numbers like that, it’s a choice between getting slaughtered and not getting slaughtered. No choice at all.
I also think the last line was cleverly added as just the right bait to get Littlefinger jumping for joy. She deliberately has not promised him what the reward will be. I’m not absolutely certain she’s set on a particular reward. Perhaps the reward will be hearing him out or not telling Robin about Lysa. It seems odd to give punishment as reward, but this particular m-w.com definition seems to allow for that interpretation:
The fact Sansa turned Littlefinger down in the first place is proof she’s still a Stark, and values her… well, values. But her running back to him with her tail between her legs is a very weak move, and it will have reprecussions. She has become a beggar, and unless she does a very un-Stark-like move and has him executed, Littlefinger will have her by the balls.
Fuck…LF gonna screw all
I dont know Y she is maintaining secrecy with Jon.
He smirked at last time he met with sansa ‘half brother’ that word means a lot that LF gonna fuck if u trust him
RosanaZugey,
I pray, pray, pray you are correct
And I really hope she tells Jon.
He will screw them over, turst me. He is there for it. He screwed over Starks, then Tyrells, then Aryns, then Boltons, and now the rest of whatever this is….Starks? He is litteraly a betryal personified – he would see the world burn if he could be King of Ashes.
Dee,
I think the reward almost certainly has to be her hand in marriage. She has nothing else to offer him. Now whether she will go through with that is an entirely different story.
I for one have no doubt that Sansa will most certainly be Littlefinger’s downfall, but when exactly or how, I don’t know.
I do hope it extends to next season, just so that we can have a bit more build up to the climax of the Littlefinger story. He basically masterminded everything from the first 4 seasons, and it would be good to see him amass even more power before Sansa knocks him down.
I think Littlefinger would obviously like Sansa, but not at the expense of anything else. With the Bolton marriage, he was giving up on “having” her – neither of the scenarios he gave her: cozying up to Ramsay or being liberated by Stannis – would ever result in him getting with her. The best he could have hoped for was to have her, and the North, as a rock solid ally of The Vale.
Now? Who knows, I assume he’s hoping for marriage both for personal and professional reasons. And, if he does ride up and save the day, it’s going to be hard for Sansa to say no, especially since she has no idea how Littlefinger betrayed Ned.
I think Littlefinger will for sure fuck over Jon, not Sansa. Because he loves Sansa (in a creepy way) and wants her to be the queen in the north no doubt.
There are two ways: either Sansa has offered her hand in marriage, or the reward she expects to give him is…death.
I think Sansa is smart enough to realize that LF has the manpower to wipe any of the victors out. In fact, that’s his plan all along. We know he wants to be Warden of the North. He told Cersei himself, back in 5×06. So, the only way she can secure Jon’s life is by marriage. Or just sex. I don’t know.
But, if you ask me, Sansa is going to lure LF into a trap. And then, either Jon or her will kill LF. That trailer scene shows LF on Winterfell, and he seems surprised. He was probably talking to Sansa and then Jon showed up.
Maybe I have high expectations. I can’t bare LF being the victor of all of this. Honestly, I can’t. If that’s how the Season ends, with LF having all the power, I’m going to be dissapointed as fuck.
Markus Stark,
You do have a good point regarding it extending to next season, I just feel that this wil be to the detriment of Sansa+Jon new relationship (SIBLING rlsp)… and I would rather not see this happen.
Ugh. I don’t know. I am torn and anxious.
Littlefinger’s plan all along was to attack and kill whoever won that fight, so in either case Sansa would be widowed and returned to his custody (this rests on Sansa surviving these multiple battles, which is stupid, but then, the whole plan was).
Praying so hard for that. But this is GOT, and I feel like it wont happen 🙁
Same here. My thoughts exactly.
Ginevra,
I agree with you, I don’t understand those saying it’s “weak” of her to ask for the Knights of the Vale. She has no other option, and it doesn’t mean she’s going to trust Littlefinger now. It’s better to have LF help you than to have Ramsay slaughter you.
But you’re right, not consulting with Jon/Davos is the one problem.
Could be. Then again, if the Walkers make it past the Wall after the battle is over, Littlefinger’s schemes will be largely a moot point.
Connor,
Agreed, 100%.
My first hope is Sansa tells Jon about the availability of the Vale forces in the next episode, so that Jon goes into battle fully informed. I want this Stark drama to end!
If not, I only hope that this battle does not end with Jon’s forces being decimated, with LF arriving at the right time to take all credit. I still think that Sansa will turn the tables on LF after the battle, in the finale. But at what cost? If it is Jon’s people who get slaughtered before the Vale help arrives, would he not be angry with Sansa? Unless he doesn’t find out the truth and all this withholding information from Jon is actually meant only for creating drama.
I do hope this battle turns out to be different than how I am imagining it, lol.
To be fair, LF only ever really looks out for himself. He wants power, he wants a castle. He wants to be a true Lord, how he gets there doesn’t seem like he cares. I don’t remember him betraying anyone in the Vale, yes he threw Lysa out the window but again, it was to secure his own power. And she was cray, I wouldn’t call that a betrayal. He also wants revenge for Cat IMO. No one knows he betrayed Ned, we do but Sansa and the North have no clue.
But I’m sure LF is smart enough to see where the power will lie if he helps to unite the North under Stark banners, he won’t betray them.
Anyways, none of it matters really. The Walkers are coming, none of these schemes matter when the Wall falls.
Markus Stark,
I also agree with this. The only issue I have is not telling Jon/Davos. IT would really change their war tactics. As the battle hasn’t begun yet, I am really holding out hope that my girl tells my boy. LOL
Athelstane,
Which is why he should just die in episode 10
In respect of the books, at least, I’ve always thought a lot of it was the long gaps with no new material giving people nothing to do but theorize based on existing stuff. R+L=J has been a virtual certainty for 16+ years, so people think it’s too “obvious” and try to come up with alternatives or add-ons (e.g., the Meera twin theory recently).
Yeah. If I’m Jon, and I know that the Vale Army is an option, I would take my chances with Littlefinger (who is manipulative, but not actively committed to my destruction). Destroy Ramsay and worry about what happens after that. I’d be frustrated with Sansa for not telling me, however.
I also just want to say that Sophie is gorgeous! God!!
LF will be dead after E10 I’m sure. Sansa will promise him marriage, if he helps them kill Ramsay. After Ramsay’s death, she will be free to marry again.
And then in E10, she will turn the tables on him, she will reveal the truth about Lysa’s death to the lords of the Vale, and LF will be executed.
In the scheme of things, LF is really a good marriage prospect for Sansa. She’s not only the Queen in the North, she’s just a few likely deaths away from being the heiress to the Riverlands too. With the combined power of the Vale and the North, she could wipe out the Freys and at least get to a position to negotiate the return of Riverrun from the Lannister army.
Plus, while he’s gross and a betrayer, I think he does actually love her, in his way.
Of course, there’s the ice zombies and all of that – but there’s time to worry about that later.
maria,
Can he really openly screw them over unless he has a reaaally clever trick up his sleeve?
He lied about how Sansa ended up with the Boltons, judging from the reaction to that news the Vale would never support the Boltons. Even if LF isn’t loyal to Sansa, he pushed her cousin towards saving her. It’s not like LF has direct control over the knights of the Vale.
If he is gonna claim Sansa killed Lysa,the knights of the vale and Sweet robin would turn on Sansa. Sweetrobin might believe LF over Sansa if LF plays his cards right but that would be a risky move. It would be really difficult to explain why LF first wanted to come to Sansas aide and then suddenly “figures out” Sansa killed Lysa
Any suggestions would be welcome
Sansa will reward LF with a marriage… to Lyanna Mormont. Baby Bear will then whip him into submission and make him braid her hair.
This. But I think they will continue the soap opera BS for “the dramas” even if it doesn’t make any sense.
Jon needs to know for logistical reasons. Sansa is showing an unrealistic failure to understand how battles are actually fought – strategy is equally important to raw manpower.
Here’s what I’m thinking: What purpose does LF serve after this? We finally know what Sansa wants and that’s Winterfell. Once she has it, why does she need him? And with winter coming, what purpose does he serve to the overall story anymore? What does Petyr Baelish’s master manipulations matter when White Walkers are crossing the wall, or Daenerys comes over? I feel like he’s a loose end that’s about to be tied up (like the Freys). Obviously, I could be wrong (as I habitually am), but I doubt it on this one. Inbesides, we have yet to see the scene of him in the godswood looking scared as someone is approaching him. Matter of fact, we still have yet to see the scene of Sansa looking scared over the flame, or Sansa saying, “It’s all I think about…what was taken from me.” Those words don’t sound like someone hellbent on suffering fools who have done her wrong, or going along with someone else’s agenda for the remainder of 13 episodes. If Sansa is to rebuild her dying House, I don’t see a place for LF in that.
Ingelheim,
I was thinking exactly this!
By the way: While it’s always safe to assume that Littlefinger is working on some scheme of betrayal, Aidan Gillen gave some hints in an interview not long ago that there might actually be some genuine altruism/guilt at work in his ride to the rescue:
Take it for what it’s worth.
Maybe the letter is for sweet robín instead of littlefinger. Justo saying haha
RosanaZugey,
I agree. LF will be killed this season. He serves no purpose in this story any more.
RosanaZugey,
Yes, very well said. That scene from the trailer could be a trick scene (like some others have been), though he did look a little scared.
And I forgot about that line. I wonder who she is saying that to? It could be Jon also. I dunno. I am so anxious.
Most here seem to think that the reward Littlefinger wants for himself is to marry Sansa. I’m not so sure. He does seem creepily attached to her, but the thing he loves most is power. He likely wants Sansa to marry Robin, and unite the Vale and the North together. The more kingdoms of the Seven Kingdoms he can unite, the better his chances for power. Eventually, once there is an heir, Baelish will do away with Robin (the moon door sounds best) and marry Sansa, but not until as many kingdoms are united under him as possible. And then he’ll move for the Iron Throne.
I too felt it was obviously it was LF and like you find there is often a lot of speculation looking for twists that aren’t there.
I’m not surprised Sansa didn’t tell Jon about her liaison with LF as no doubt she’s told Jon it was his scheming that led her to marry Ramsay, and no doubt Jon would have advised staying well away from him.
If she does receive confirmation from LF that he will bring the Vale forces, the. I’m pretty convinced she will then tell Jon, who at that point may be pretty pleased to hear it, considering he knows how outnumbered they are.
How she can reward LF, I’m not sure. She’s not in a position to offer him marriage, she’s already married to Ramsay and at this stage, he is still alive. I don’t think she’d marry LF anyway, she’s been forced into two arranged marriages, she won’t be going there again in a hurry!
One things for sure, if they win Winterfell back, then Jon gets to meet LF and it will be interesting to see how he reacts to Mr snake in the grass.
RosanaZugey,
mau,
This.
I am with you in that I HOPE she will give him his just desserts, but somehow I don’t think she will end up having him executed if he has just ridden in and saved the day. I am a bit bothered by the fact that Sansa seems to be a bit “underhanded” in some ways. I know she’s been through a lot and it’s hard to trust ANYONE after trauma, but to trust LF to help, but NOT trust Jon enough to tell him what she is doing? I know they weren’t close growing up, but somehow there is something off here I can’t put my finger on. Wait and see and hope it isn’t totally upsetting, I guess. The majority of us had it right though, she was writing LF….gads, does that mean we know these characters so well?…LOL
I hope Sansa really has learned how to play the game, because LF seems to be a master chess player. Sure, she could tell Robin that LF killed his mom, but who would Robin believe? It won’t be Sansa, that seems certain. She is still not half the liar LF is.
There was something about them filming a scene with the giant, Ramsey, Littlefinger and Sansa (they couldn’t say, ‘and Jon’ for obvious reasons) so they already kinda said that Littlefinger was going to be a part of the fight for Winterfell. No big surprise on who she was writing to really. And you could see ‘Vale’ if you looked hard enough when she was writing the message. I like Petyr, as bad as he may be, he’s just such an intriguing character. I love when he’s on screen!
I would not be surprised if LF never answers Sansa’s letter. Sansa, believing LF wasn’t going to show up, never tells Jon and Davos of the Vale soldiers.
During the battle, LF will then wait and wait until Jon’s forces are decimated, then surprise – he comes to save the day, without letting Sansa know.
So when LF meets with Jon at Winterfell, she’s screwed, since LF will give the impression Sansa had this planned all along, and he will be “surprised” that “Oh, she didn’t tell you? She wrote to me for help.”
This puts a nice wedge between Jon and Sansa, and Jon probably won’t trust her because of it. So, Sansa is stuck with LF again, with no one else to turn to. LF wins.
Three unknown factors, though.
1 – Would the meeting be before or after the battle?
2 – Ramsay, is he there?
3 – Who does LF meet in the WF godswood?
Maybe just wishful thinking, but maybe the reason Sansa isn’t telling Jon is that Jon and Davos might see LF coming to their rescue as a valiant act and treat him as an ally, and wouldn’t be chill with him being unceremoniously killed after the battle.
Convincing the Lords of the Vale of the truth about lysas death would be easy but indeed Robin might be inclined to believe his beloved uncle.
Do you think Robin would be there at WF though?I imagine him being left behind somewhere safe considering what we saw of his archery skills…
If sansa tells jon the whole thing, even with Littlefinger showing up with the Vale army and saving the day, jon will still want to kill him. I’m not sure if sansa wants this, though. She could have him killed when they met at mole’s town. Or maybe she decided not to because he could still have some use for her. Either way, this reward doesn’t sound positive to me. That reminds me of Littlefinger’s clip in the season 6 trailer. I’m most curious to see what he’s doing at winterfell’s Godswood and who’s the other person he’s meeting there. It doesn’t look good.
Flora Linden,
That’s other possibility I’ve been thinking about. That would actually be the smartest move on LF’s part.
There’s only one possible scenario in which LF loses. And it requires his death. So, either Jon, Sansa or Lord Royce kills him, or he will be the victor at the end.
That’s why I believe LF is a goner.
I don’t find her weak. I think she wanted to be rid of him once and for all, then realized that it was a hasty brush-off once she was with Jon, Davos and company talking strategy and realized that they are screwed. It was one of those “Doh!” moments. That is why I feel she was frustrated with the talk of houses that are lost (Karstark) because she knew Davos was right. With the War of the Five Kings, Robb screwed over a lot of loyal houses. Counting on courting decimated houses, who are just now starting to rebuild, is an uphill battle. Leaning on Littlefinger is the last possible resort.
I think this is killing her to have to turn to him. It makes her vulnerable because she is dependent again on him.
But she has her eyes open, finally. She may not be on to all his schemes, Littlefinger always seems to be one step ahead, but it will be interesting to see what this “reward” truly is.
In the season preview, there was a shot of LF standing in the woods. It was nighttime. I can’t help but think his reward, will be
Sophie said Sansa was a “boss ass bitch” this season. While she has definitely found her voice, even in tense moments (like with Littlefinger and Lord Glover), one small order to her sworn shield or brother could take her from “Good job, Sansa” to “Fuck yes, girl!”
Full transcription of the letter in this comment.
The Vale forces swoop in and catch the Bolton army unaware, crushing them. Littlefinger descends the steps of his gilded carriage and approaches Sansa, honoring her with a slight incline of his head that does not quite cover his all-knowing smirk.
“The forces of the Lord of the Vale have arr.. urk!” A sword tip, covered in bronzed runes and black steel dots, appears in the center of his chest.
Sansa smiles at the gentleman behind him. “Greetings, Lord Royce. We will send ravens to the Vale immediately, and let Robin know his step-father died bravely on the field of battle.”
It is to littlefinger …and it’s content will be something like ….If you wanna redeem yourself …a $$#@£€..,,,you have one chance .One last chance …..come to my aid …or you can forget sansa stark ever existed ………
We know from filming news that
oops …..didn’t see that picture first ….now I look an idiot
I don’t think Sansa wrote the actual reward in the latter.
To me it looks more like: ”I shall see to it that you are (generously/handsomely…etc) rewarded”
For sure! As an aside, everyone loves to harp on how they’re “working together” in the books, but what are they working together for? Winterfell. If/when they take it back, no one knows what’s going to happen in the books. The show could actually be playing out exactly what’s going to happen in the books (they retake Winterfell and she has him killed). The motivations and circumstances are obviously different on the show, but that doesn’t mean the outcomes are. And since the vast majority of book readers believe Sansa will either directly or indirectly be the death of LF, her killing him off this season would not be a depature from that expectation.
LF is part of the story that’s over with. The time for waring amongst each other and vying for control of the realm will be generally over with this season. “Winter is coming…and the dead come with it”. I think that will be the focus of the last 2 seasons, and if that’s the case, then LF’s ambitions are no longer relevant to the rest of the story.
Yes to all of this!
The one thing I would add is that Sansa isn’t 100% on how Jon would take the news that potential support is non-Northern, which would complicate any spoils of victory. So while as a fan of the Stark house I want Sansa to disclose this intel, I can still see reasons to not do so at the present time.
Flora Linden,
Wow, nice theory, but I do think Jon is there too….don’t I remember that one of the stars did an interview where they said the last episode of this season there would be a lot of deaths? I had forgotten that Brienne had made comments about Davos to her and not knowing the whole story it didn’t shine a nice light on him. One of my pet gripes, if you hear something about someone how about you find out for yourself if the “rumors” are true…
LawofFury,
Cersei has mentioned on at least 4 occasions that she would ‘burn cities to the ground’ for her children, I thought it was a pretty obvious set up over the seasons that it will be her who goes mad and burns down kings landing.
Jon + Sansa + Davos + Littlefinger + Melisandre + Tormund + Royce.
Hell yeah!
Jessica Hazel,
spoilers
Grayven Reyne,
D&D should hire you. hahaha
It would be great if sansa just tells jon about LF; but I dont think she will, she has become really cocky.
I know LF doesn’t have noble intentions here, but I honestly believe he wants to seat Sansa as Queen of da Norf with him right beside her ruling (consolidating the Northern Houses and Vale houses to take the rest of the realm). He knows Sansa is key to power in the North and she won’t allow him to harm Jon, so if he tries anything with Jon, it will be to send Jon off somewhere.
However, LF also (seemingly) doesn’t know about the real threat to the north that Jon and Sansa are doing all of this for. With only two more shorter seasons reportedly left after this battle concludes, they don’t have time to deal with the political maneuverings and Jon off wandering through the snowy wilderness before somehow gaining his power back again.
So, I guess that’s why I’m just not too worried about LF’s plan. I think we’ll see LF save the day and seemingly get his way at the end of episode 9, then something will unexpectedly go very wrong for him in the finale.
Sure she can offer him marriage. If Littlefinger holds up his end of the bargain, Ramsay will be dead, and then she can marry anyone.
I do believe LF wants Sansa as his trophy wife of impeccable bloodline-Cat substitute but I cannot possibly begin to believe that Sansa will be forced to marry against her will, again! Hopefully the reward will be “Robin, this scumbag threw your mommy out of the moon door.”
People, people, people… all of LF’s power right now comes from his influence over Sweetrobin. He “has” the Vale because he “has” Robin Arryn? You know who else could “have” Robin Arryn, if she wanted, and probably to a much greater and deeper extent than LF? Sansa Stark.
In any situation in which Ramsay is killed, Sansa can marry Robin and off LF. The only thing that could prevent this is if Sansa didn’t want to do it. LF wouldn’t bother to guard against it, either.
Ingelheim,
not only that but if they can count on the army they need to bring them into the battlefield strategy. If you have all these additional forces but they are completely out of step from the rest of your army the disorganization could ruin the battle for you, even if you have the numbers.
OT: 7.80 mill for Broken Man
http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/06/final-adjusted-tv-ratings-for-friday_6.html
In the moments I’m tempted to lose my shit over this Sansa business (and how they write/portray her), and her seeming “shadiness”, I think back to Liam saying, “Sansa has a great arc this season.” I think of NCW saying that Sansa’s story was the one he was most looking forward too (after his own); hell, I think of Isaac HW saying that Sansa should be the Queen because she’s got a grasp of politics and would know how to rule. If you add in ST’s comments about finally getting revenge and being a “boss ass bitch”, and that her fans would FINALLY get the Sansa we’ve been waiting for…it just doesn’t add up that she’d fall back into being LF’s bitch. Its one thing to say Sophie’s “trolling” or over-exaggerating her role this season, but what of everyone else? I don’t know. Perhaps I’m being willfully blind, but I can’t accept that Sansa’s going to end up some antagonist who sides with LF over her own family or whatever other madness people are throwing out there.
Side note…I agree, Sophie is farking beautiful. She makes me swoon. *Heart eyes*
Amen. Unless of course it was weak of Robb to call his bannermen instead of, agency fully engorged, wiping out the Lannister forces himself like Groo.
Sean C.,
I don’t think she’ll specificaly offer him anything.
I don’t think she wrote it in the latter and after the battle I don’t think they will go into details about this, rather I think Sansa will turn on him.
RosanaZugey,
I didn’t know they said all that.
I hope hope hope…. you are right!
Mihnea,
Yeah I am wondering. The casual viewer has not and will not do research to find out what is written in the letter.
Will they show us in the show? More specifically her comment on “ill see to it that you are rewarded”
Dee,
Thrones back on top 😀
ita, this is what happened. Would anyone with half a brain act this way?
I would have no problem with this Sansa had the show not stated, three years running now, that she would change. This would be a new Sansa, one who had come into her own, found her voice. Remember the black feathers she wore back in season four, signaling the supposed change? If you’re going to do a “new Sansa,” then do it. What I’m seeing here is the “old” idealistic, naive Sansa.
ok lol I’ll shut up now.
I rather hope that the “Reward” will be much like Palaptine’s “care”
“I am sending you my new apprentice, Darth Vader. He will… **take care** of you.”
That kind of plan…
I think she may well be smart enough to wrangle LF’s demise somehow, maybe by telling Jon the truth…
Then again, this is GoT and the exact opposite of what I’d like to happen will, so who knows hey?
We shall see. Good things to you all.
maria,
How is she the old, idealistic, naïve Sansa?
Thinking about this further, I don’t want Sansa to have him killed. Not yet.
I want it to be revealed that he was the one to betray Ned. He was in the throne room when Ned was taken hostage, he held the knife himself. I want Sansa and Jon to find this out. As much as I want him to pay for everything that has happened since, this was his first move that lead to the destruction of House Stark. I want him to suffer for it.
It bums me out when shit deeds go unpunished/hidden. This is why I eagerly await Jaime’s role in Brans injury to become known. I want him held accountable and to be forced to stop hiding behind Cersei’s skirt and his Lannister breeding.
Kells,
But how will they know that? EVERYONE who was there is dead. Except for LF.
Varys? He is way too far away and this wont drag that long.
It would certainly seem to be addressed to LF but I’m not as certain. It would seem a tragic mistake by her to trust him.
I’m also thinking the Brienne/Jamie/Blackfish storyline will turn out as none of us suspect. Maybe Jaime will begin his theorized heroic redemption arc. Maybe not. But I’m thinking that Sansa is either writing to Brienne or Jamie to take over the Vale army and head north. Or she’s written Brienn as well as LF to set him up and take the Vale army for herself.
Brienne, LF, and Jamie have all made promises to or about protecting Sansa. And with Jamie running out of options I wouldn’t count out the possibility of him helping Brienne help Sansa. If only to save Cersei and what’s left of the Lannisters. And it would be great to see the Kingslayer help fight against the Boltons and/or the WWs.
Dee,
At this point, with all the visions I think it will be Bran…
… Always support the bottom?
I just came to a kind of disturbing revelation (mostly about myself): I wouldn’t actually mind a Littlefinger/Sansa child being the heir to Winterfell. If there is one thing the Starks lack a bit of its the inclination to politics/scheming which I think a ruler probably could benefit from. Now, granted, I’ve always thought Sansa more Tully than Stark but of late she has shown more of her Stark side. (Besides which, some of the Tully’s are pretty tough themselves – Blackfish in particular. And I’m thinking Hoster was a pretty strong ruler in his day).
Of course I don’t think Littlefinger is really out to establish a legacy through a child of his. So that kind of shoots the idea down. But I think a Stark/Baelish heir would be preferable to say a Bolton or even a Karstark ruler of the north.
This is exactly what I’ve been saying. There simply is no time for all that crap. LF will get his reward in ep10… Likely a noose or a sword.
Don’t marry him, Salsa!
She better tell Jon about that army or I’ll flip a table.
#DieLittlefinger
Unless Sansa is smarter than it seems, so far, Jon is royally screwed. No way LF is going to let him live once the battle is over. No light in sight for Johnny boy:(
I don’t think this is to LF. I think its either to Lord Royce, or to Robyn. She doesn’t trust LF for good reason, and going to Royce she might just say something about her aunt lysa to keep LF out of the picture – perhaps permanently
Dolorous Methuselah,
I’m sorry, but that is a terrible thing (especially since it implies Sansa being tied down to someone who has assisted in the downfall of her family).
Bran….
mau,
One of Ramsay or LF will make it into next season.
LOL you’ve written this on my behalf. Couldn’t agree more on this. Plus we have the prophecy from AFFC and also the fact Sansa will likely discover Cersei’s mission for LF. The guy is toast.
IMO Littlefingers death was always going to be the ultimate climax of Sansas entire story arc. So in some ways, I could see it argued that it’s a bit too soon to have him killed, story wise. Sansa may need to string him along a bit longer only to destroy him when it hurts most – when he really believes he’s about to have “everything”.
Of course that’s going to be super annoying THIS season since it means LF will live another day, and probably Sansa will appear to let him, and she may even reward him. Not with marrying her though, because ew, she’s not ready to marry anyone right now, let alone the guy who forced her to marry her rapist husband. But she may allow him to think that will be in the cards in the future.
Sandor is very much alive. And he was very much there.
jinx47,
There is No way that Jon is going to die again. That would be hilariously stupid storytelling.
Grayven Reyne,
I love this!
The new “poisoned by his enemies”.
Kill the boy, Sansa.
Ohhhh yes! This too! 🙂
My SanSan heart aside, imagine if Sansa does marry LF and next season (when Sandor/Arya get to WF), Sandor scoffs “You married the man who had your Father killed?!”
Wishful thinking but damn, that would be a kick in the gut.
Valar Morghulis.
Well, it sure would be, but I’m hoping it won’t come to that. I’m really wondering who we will have left after the battle. Somehow, I really think slimy, old LF will still be standing….would be nice if Sandor could take him down…lol.
Kells,
Well actually its the second (the first was telling Lysa to kill Arryn and write that letter to the Starks implicating the Lannisters) but I get your point and agree with you. Oh I’d love it of Sandor showed up at just the right time…..
Great detective work there, CreepyPancakes (awesome name too)!
Now that we know what the letter said and most likely who it’s addressed to, I need Sansa to finally tell Jon that more troops are available and ready to help them. If he knows he may have more than 2,405 in his fight with Ramsay, he would be able to plan accordingly. She can’t let him and his men march off to war thinking they are vastly outnumbered and that this is more or less a suicide mission. At this point, I don’t care what her reasoning is for concealing this from Jon, but now she needs to be honest with her brother. His life is literally on the (front) line here.
Why is everyone so obsessed with the Starks having to be one big harmonious entity? I mean, god forbid there’s some complexity to it? God forbid the characters have actually been changed by their experiences and now put survival, caution and safety before honesty and all those other unconditional noble idiocies that got half their family killed? What, is it too uncomfortable to be conflicted and challenged by character dynamics?
Did we not want them to start playing the game? Cause you simply don’t get to play the game the Disney way.
Parts of this fandom really do yearn for that cheap fantasy smut where the good guys band together, take down the bad guys and live happily ever after, huh?
I’d rather the characters stay true to their unique personalities and experience than their family name/reputation.
What’s more relevant to Sansa is the fact LF has been tasked with bringing Cersei her head, for allegedly killing Joff. I’m sure she’d be pretty pissed at that revelation.
Dee,
If I remember correctly, a certain Sandor Clegane was in the throne room when LF snuck up behind Ned. That would be sweet poetic justice, which is why it won’t happen ?.
I would take it further and say that he masterminded things way before that. Who on earth benefited from spreading the rumor Lyanna Stark was “kidnapped and raped” (rather than willingly eloped)? The rumor that he KNEW not to be true (see the reaction in season 5,when he talks with Sansa, he knows). Only one person. Brandon Stark was on the way to Riverrun when he got the news his sister was kidnapped. He was going there to marry Cat. Now whether Littlefinger planned it the way it happened (that Brandon would turn back and go to the Mad King to demand his sister’s release) is still an open question for me. It’s possible (he probably hated Brandon, having just lost a duel to him), but I think it’s also likely that he just wanted to buy himself some time (because, you know, he is so awesome that if only he gets to talk to Cat one more time, she’ll certainly change her mind) and was hoping to have Brandon go to Dorne and try to “free” his sister… but that’s not what happened and things got out of hand.
Anyway, my point is that I believe Littlefinger has been messing things up since way before Jon Arryn’s death. He totally tops my list of characters I want to see dead.
jinx47,
Jon has something very few characters in this universe have, it’s callled plot armour! He isn’t going anywhere.
Oh crap! How could I have forgotten that? He really did orchestrate everything. As incompetent and repulsive (though totally entertaining) that I find House Lannister, it is all Baelish.
It doesn’t help that some of these characters were straight out of Keystone Cops with their stupidity. Honor does no good if your dead, Ned…Robb…Catelyn…
Elizabeth,
Bran didn’t even see Jon die in his visions.
Connor,
Nah. I don’t mind her taking the Vale army.
I would have preferred it if she had done it sooner. Kill LF and his attendants in Mole’s Town, send news to Moat Cailin and claim LF & friends were attacked by the Boltons, take the Vale army for herself, profit.
Kosten,
Sorry, but it is only logical that Sansa tell Jon that they may have another X amount of fighters coming when they are planning a battle
Its not about good vs bad. relax
we all know this is not sunshine and rainbows
Didn’t Wyman Manderly get cast? And the Manderlys and White Harbor have been mentioned multiple times. Not sure how that will be folded in.
RosanaZugey,
It’s good to know I’m not the only one ‘losing shit’ over fictional characters.
And thanks for the reminder of what other cast members were saying of Sansa’s arc. I have a girl crush on Sophie too, but I sometimes do wonder (like after last episode) if she was trolling the fans and somewhat exagerating Sansa’s development this season. ‘All the others that would follow Brienne’ (sworn to her I presume) still need to materialize, 7 episodes in.
I try to remain optimistic that this letter would have her not only as queen or regent of the north, but somehow having the Vale army as well.
Apollo,
That too. Add her to the list
Rodent,
Forgot all about that. Then again, if he hadn’t done all these things we wouldn’t have a story, books, a show and this website. Then what would we be doing with all that free time? 🙂 But yeah, I still want him strung up.
Littlefinger is playing her like a cello. All he has to do is hold his army back juuuuuust long enough for most of the wildlings to be killed (and from his point of view, hopefully Jon too)
Then, he swoops in. The Northern houses that did show up will recognize him as the victor. The wildlings will be mostly done and Jon, if he’s still alive, won’t have any support. If LF is lucky, Ramsay will have killed Rickon, eliminating another Stark heir.
LF tells Sansa his “just reward” is Winterfell and that his army, plus the Northern houses who have joined, are his means of collecting. Please and thank you.
Of course, if Sansa walks over to Davos and Jon and says, “Just got a raven. The Knights of the Vale are coming,” then maybe they hold back and things change. We’ll see if she’s smart enough…
Kells,
Hee. It is hard to keep track of all the misdeeds.
RosanaZugey,
I love this! I agree that Sansa’s “commitment” to LF will be a short-term situation. At some point, the player has to get played and the opportunity now lies with Sansa.
BunBunStark,
Well said. I am “assuming” that Sansa is questioning her judgment right now: to initially dismiss LF and his offer of the Vale army and to believe that the Northern houses would automatically fall in line with the Starks.
Perhaps she isn’t telling Jon about LF’s offer because she isn’t certain that it is still available. LF isn’t particularly trust-worthy and she knows that better than most.
Regardless, I, too, wish that she would be completely honest with Jon. (I don’t believe that it stems from selfishness.) I just don’t think that it serves that story well to have this angle continue much longer. I, for one, was hoping for a unified front among the Stark siblings and this divisiveness and secrecy is making me unhappy.
Kosten,
This tbh. Whilst I am a shameless member of the Stark brigade, wanting what’s left of their fractured family to have some eventual peace, I’d much rather see some discord which is why I’ve really enjoyed the Northern plot this season so far. Sansa wants that sweet revenge, it might render her ineffectual when looking at the practicalities of war, but she is hell bent on seeing Ramsay’s head on a spike.
Sansa and Jon have had too much happen to them to see the world through rose tinted glasses, if one decides to remain guarded and cautious I won’t blame them whatsoever. Both are infinitely more interesting as a result.
It would be heartbreaking but totally GoT, to have Sansa sacrifice herself over to LF after he comes to their aid in the battle. That could very well be the reward like so many have mentioned already. She will be his undoing, she saved his life in the trial over Lysa’s death, she has trump cards to play against him in the foreseeable future I’m sure of it. When and how I don’t know.
Did we see the scene that had that one pic of Littlefinger in a snowy forest yet? Or would that still be coming? It looked like it had a private meeting sort of feel to it.
I cant remember…they saw him in that shack and we saw him in the vale…not sure if we saw more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnZ7s-H1gNU
check 2:05
I’m not sure who Catelynn shared it with but cant imagine her keeping it to herself, not sure if they know in the books though
Flayed Potatoes,
That might happen on a CW show.
Or in Dany’s storyline.
WorfWWorfington,
What if she doesn’t get a response in time? Would she not look a bit daft un promising Jon and Davos a Vale contingent that never showed up?
I do agree LF holds the ascendency with her here.
Regarding Littlefinger and the Vale forces: Am I correct that Lord Royce is in actual command of the forces, not Littlefinger? If that is the case, then all Sansa need do once she has secured their support is to let slip to Royce the truth about Littlefinger’s actions, his lies about Lysa’s death, and his arrangement of her marriage to Ramsey. I suspect the Vale folks would be glad to dispatch that little weasel.
Like others however, I am not liking this intra-Stark intrigue. Winter is coming.
Shaz,
This. I doubt LF will give any response.
Flayed Potatoes,
Shade thrown!
Dee,
Hey, Watchers on the Wall were the ones who posted that info so…
Sean C.,
You assume that Sansa, once a widow, would choose to be with Littlefinger. That is a very big assumption. I do not think this is necessarily the case. You could argue that she seemed distraught that he was leaving her at Winterfell before her marriage but that was probably due to him being the only person she knew in the area.
It’s bad enough that the writers made Sansa – SANSA, of all people! forget the words to her oath to Brienne AND to be told off by both Lyanna Mormont and Robett Glover, NOW they have revealed that her handwriting is very childish. I must continue to lower my expectations for the rest of the seasons as to the portrayal to Sansa on the show.
Shaz,
Yeah, even better if he doesn’t respond and just shows up.
And even if the Tullys show up and force Littlefinger to behave for a bit, they aren’t staying in Winterfell. And the Tullys aren’t going to support Jon over Sansa.
The only real wild card Littlefinger or Sansa can’t account for is what Jaime will do. If Brienne calls him on his oath and he releases some Lannister troops (and Bronn) to go help…
Er, no, I don’t assume that. I merely stated that she could promise to marry him.
Shaz,
He’s got a card or two as well, if he wants to burn the bridge totally. Brienne can’t outfight the entre Vale army and Cersei would lurrrve to have Sansa back.
All you people thinking Sansa will kill LF this season, I’m laughing. I would put the chances of that at a complete ZERO 0%. There is no chance. She’s not going to turn around and kill him after the battle.
SHE DOESN’T KNOW HE HAD NED KILLED. There is no chance she’s going to kill him. Why on earth would she? The thing she’s angry about him for is for Ramsay and Ramsay alone, but if he comes with his army, pledges to her, and gets them back Winterfell, she’s not going to turn around and kill him. Again, why the hell would she? He would’ve atoned in the biggest way possible. She’ll 10000000% keep him around. Sophie herself keeps talking about how useful LF is as an advisor. I think that is reflecting her character. She’s still influenced by him, remember?
Sansa’s entire arc this season has been so aggravating.
Yes, we all cheered when she gave LF a big FU. But there was NO POINT in lying about it to Jon, and because now she’s like “Oh hey jk LF really do need you please come to the battle pls and save us we need you.” How does that give her ANY growth or control? She’s crawling back to him begging him to save them.
Some people here went on about how it makes sense that Sansa wouldn’t totally trust Jon. But SHE TRUSTED LF! She said you either are an idiot or my enemy, but she told him all about their plan to attack Winterfell, Jon’s army, etc. She trusted him about the BF information. So, the guy equally responsible for sending her to Ramsay – she trusts HIM with all that information, but doesn’t trust Jon or Davos enough to tell them?
And the worst part is, Jon doesn’t know anything about LF! So those of you saying “she doesn’t want to tell him about meeting with LF” – why the hell would he care? It’s not like he’s going to feel so morally wronged by working with the Vale. He probably WOULD feel that way about Sansa lying to him. All he would know is this is the person Sansa planned with to marry Ramsay, who says he didn’t know what Ramsay was like, and Sansa AGREED.
Sorry, but nothing about Sansa’s arc thus far seems all that smart to me. In fact, she’s running back to LF in her moment of need, rather than allow Jon/Davos to plan with him in advance when they’re all on equal footing – how dumb can she get?
I loved Sansa last season, even in her pain, because I thought she showed an inner strength to not let herself get beat. How strong she was to survive is amazing, and I loved that she got paired up with Jon, who is arguably the most decent character on this show. And yet, everything she’s done since then is inexplicably dumb. I don’t think she’s out to get Jon. I just think she’s being dumb and it’s so irritating to see the show do this in the name of “agency.”
And let’s not forget, this is the guy who keeps emphasizing how Jon is her HALF brother. Seems he’s not just going to help them out of the goodness of his heart.
Stop getting so wound up LOL.
So how about she discovers (from Brienne via Jaime) that LF is to bring Cersei her head when he defeats the Boltons? That’s more than enough reason to off the guy.
Nadia,
Jessica Hazel,
Its still a spoiler because not every one reads the filming stuff (like me) and this thread is open to all. Just for the future.
I think it is possible that this message is meant to end up in Ramsay’s hands. If he “intercepts” this message he will send a bunch of troops south to punish Littlefinger bettering the Starks chances without actually having to give Littlefinger anything. Certainly would have Sansa giving Littlefinger a little of his own.
Kosten,
It’s not about wanting absolute harmony. There will be plenty of hard choices and deaths coming up in their lives that could fracture them. It’s about logic. Logically, there’s no reason that we know of not to tell her allies, specifically her brother Jon who she literally begged to help her take down the Boltons and has been confiding in, about potentially having a fresh army at their service to help them take Winterfell.
What it seems like you’re saying is that you want “discord” even when it’s not logical and doesn’t make any narrative sense. Which is fine, but it’s no better than the opposite end of the spectrum that wants to see lollipops and rainbows.
Although, for all we know there may be some logical reason behind her actions that we simply haven’t been shown yet, but until then it simply doesn’t make sense for most people given the context of everything we’ve seen.
Ingelheim,
Wouldn’t that also mean that Bran and Rickon would be in danger? If he marries Sansa it’s to be the lord of Winterfell. The ultimate prize in sticking it to the Starks. The brothers of Sansa would be his only threat to rule in the North. It would be an interesting twist.
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
I don’t think the point of all this is Sansa as Queen in the North. At the end of the day, like it or not, Jon is the one leading the army. At every point she’s met a Northern lord, she’s gotten totally smacked down. They’re not all suddenly going to be really enamored of her.
Lyanna is the lady of Bear Island because there is no other choice. There’s nothing to indicate that the North will prefer her to Jon.
If the North declares for someone, it will be Jon as King in the North. And it makes sense given the importance that Jon has on the ENTIRE series – we don’t know if Sansa is as important.
Apollo,
Stop commenting on my posts then. No one is making you. This is the second or third time you’ve said that, so just kindly bugger off.
And what the hell are you talking about? LF’s plan was never to bring Cersei Sansa’s head. In fact, he needs her to secure the North for the Lannisters. Remember, it’s the reason Cersei wanted Joffrey and Sansa to begin with, and why Tywin wanted her to marry Tyrion. Or do you not watch the show.
Flora Linden,
Excellent post. Sansa may not want to say anything until she is certain and if LF doesn’t respond…
To answer your questions…
1. Meeting between LF and Jon would be after the battle.
2. Ramsay is either dead or in a dungeon.
3. LF meets with Sansa in the WF godswood. She derives strength from being there.
I know you’re right. But the Starks do need some type of infusion of guile into their bloodline. And I’m having a hard time seeing how the line continues if not through Sansa. I think Jon’s destiny lies elsewhere. I have a hard time seeing Rickon survive Ramsey. Bran seems destined to be more the 3 eyed raven than a Stark. And Arya – well I don’t know what to say about Arya right now.
Of course I still haven’t totally given up on my “Littlefinger is an agent of the Night’s King” crackpot. 🙂
in the trailers we saw the wildlings in a battle and suddenly tormund looking up in surprise. my guess/hope is this is where the vale army shows up.
i may be wrong, but it seems to me also in the trailers we saw Lf in the godswood in WF meeting with someone. but there were 2 someones meeting him there. you could see the back of one person and just the edge of another person standing further behind.
sansa is not only witness to LF killing lyssa but also knows about his involvement with the death of jon arryn and the letter falsely accusing the lannisters of his murder. she was there to hear lyssa’s rant even if she doesn’t fully remember it yet.
no, she doesn’t have proof other than her word, but the other lords and ladies already know LF for the sniveling little con-artist he is and thoroughly mistrust him. for people like lord royce that would probably be enough to charge him and take him prisoner until/if he stood trial.
although, personally i would prefer his death rather than a trial. or maybe a trial with SR as the judge and the moon door as the king’s justice.
make the little man fly!
Yes but I don’t think she would. Creepy Littlefinger who she knows was in love with her mother. Not to mention the two loveless marriages she’s had no far. I really don’t think she’d offer that in a million years.
Nadia,
But you never actually respond when someone challenges your point with a valid argument, you simply gloss over it and keep making the same points. And every post becomes more unhinged than the last, which is a little concerning (it’s only a TV show after all).
And your last response is totally uncalled for, and kinda proves my point (as well as being against the rules of this forum), so I won’t be engaging with you from now on. Namaste ??
Dolorous Methuselah,
The line can continue through Jon too, especially if he takes the Stark name. The Starks have guile in their bloodline too (at least Cregan Stark did 😛 ).
moondoor,
Yeah, I remembered that, but Im not sure she would have told anyone. Or she thought she would once he brought the girls back.
Halfman,
If she’s offering him a reward, I imagine that’s what she means; she doesn’t have anything else to offer. Now, whether she goes through with it, who knows?
Apollo,
What is the valid argument you’re making?
“So how about she discovers (from Brienne via Jaime) that LF is to bring Cersei her head when he defeats the Boltons? That’s more than enough reason to off the guy.”
That wasn’t the conversation Cersei and LF had at all. Sansa with LF in the North is infinitely better than just LF trying to keep control of the North. Again, it’s why all the Lannisters wanted Sansa around in KL.
Do you not keep making the same point that everything Sansa is doing makes sense, even if people are presenting a valid argument challenging that?
I think she would offer it, but not go through with it. She will do anything to get back WF. I think maybe LF gets a taste of his own double cross medicine this time. She will promise him marriage, then betray him after WF is secured.
r-hard,
What is Olenna writing?
KevLS,
I would love that
Well I have to admit I don’t know what else she could offer, so you may be right. I can see her reneging on that though lol.
After all, in her position, you do what you need to do to get the right result and worry about it later.
Sansa has learnt a lot and she’s a survivor. She isn’t a leader though and she doesn’t inspire people to follow her so I can’t see her actually ending up in a position of power in the end, despite what a lot of people here speculate about. I do hope she survives until the end though and finds some sort of happiness. Inherently she is the same person she always was, hardened and less naive but not someone who really knows how to play the game.
Snap!! Just posted the same thought essentially.
Dee,
Sophie is by far the most gorgeous girl on the entire show! No one else comes close! She will have a great career because of her beauty.
On another note, I think she is writing to her cousin, Robert Arryn. She says in the letter, “You control the Vale,” which is true. Robert is their leader, not Littlefinger. She may very well have also said in the letter that Littlefinger killed his mother Lysa, and is a traitor, and that Robert should bring Littlefinger along with him and not tell him anything, so that they (Sansa and Robert) can mete out justice together. Anyway, I just think the line about “you control the Vale” is most telling, as only Robert controls it.
Even if it was written to Littlefinger, the reward would be a title or lands, not marriage. Why would Sansa go through all of this just to get rid of three bad bethrothments/marriages just to get ask for yet another? She has found found family safety again with Jon. She doesn’t need marriage.
Finally, if she thinks marriage is the only reward he would accept , why not lie. She saw him lie about killing Lysa. Lying to save yourself if OK when you’re playing the game of thrones, according to LF. And Sansa is a Player not a Pawn now.
Well, if D&D understood Sansa, they would consider this. I won’t hold my breath.
John R,
John R,
John R,
John R,
Is anyone else concerned that Ramsey will intercept Sansa’s raven or be notified by one of the other Houses that she and Jon are recruiting support?
Well here is to hoping the Blackfish knows!
I also think that she’d offer LF her hand in marriage, not because it’s what she wants (far from it), but as a few others have said, her hand and her claim are all she has to offer. It’d be a bitter pill for her to swallow but she’s absolutely desperate at this stage.
I do however think she’d go through with it if she had to, especially if the Vale do tip the scales. I doubt she’d doublecross him after he’d delivered on his word.
But I really don’t think that’ll actually happen anyway, as she’ll get word of his schemes somehow and have him killed.
SansaFarts,
A more detailed letter is over on WIC… It mentions LFs failed attempt to protect Sansa: “you promised to protect me, yet failed…” So it has to be to LF, this was always the logical choice really.
Athelstane,
This is true. Also, in an interview Aiden Gillen said that Littlefinger truly didn’t know that Ramsay would abuse Sansa, and that he was genuinely contrite. That’s difficult for me to accept, but if true, Littlefinger’s propensity to screw people over might not apply to Sansa, whom he screwed over by mistake.
idk. Most likely answer is what you said, that the Walkers will make all game playing moot.
Thanks for the link!
Yeah…I can’t see Catelyn keeping it to herself because that is huge. But at the same time, this is a woman counting on the word and honor of a man who tossed her kid from a window, to return to his comfy life and send her daughters back to her. Yeah, Jaime was so concerned with honoring that promise. OY!!!
Still pisses me off! 🙂
Then, the reveal will have to be Bran vision. With all the speculating that Jaime could possibly help Brienne in the north, I can’t see him being a northern hero.
She’s legitimizing Jon and spreading the word
If she’s pregnant she won’t need to marry anyone to keep Winterfell as long as Ramsay dies & LF would have only himself to blame.
Ok I understand that this is a smart move from her part but I hope she will not make the great mistake of trust in him again he is just dangerous to her and her family as Ramsay is . So hope that she is only using him and betray him when the time has Como
I really hope she has a great career because of her talent, not just her beauty.
She is a great young actress, I am excited to see what she does in the future. Not interested in the XMen stuff, the first was great but after that just not my bag, but I am sure she will do a ton of interesting variety. At least I hope so.
I wish I didn’t find it disheartening, considering so much in the media has been promoting and championing seeing beyond the usual “standards” of beauty. Hollywood is strange and the #AskHerMore and diversity protest seems trendy, as oppose to effective and genuine. Women, from all generations, will celebrate diversity but a certain formula still rules the day. This is why I find comments about Sophie’s looks to be a bummer. She is beautiful and she also seems to be sweet and smart and a good up-and-coming actress.
“No one else comes close”, so no one else should get the opportunities? I am sure that isn’t what you meant but as much as things change, some things will always remain. A certain look, a standard around as long as Hollywood, will always be the “go to”. A few slipping in that redefine the standards, haven’t effectively changed much.
Sansa marries Robin. Sansa kills Robin. Littlefinger tries to command the troops of the Vale, only to find their allegiance lies with Sansa, because she made a deal with Yohn Royce. Littlefinger gets stabby stabbed.
It’s a mirror of what Littlefinger did to Ned and Lysa.
Yeah, here I go. My Sansa rant. I have been pissed sense she failed to have Brienne kill LF & take over the Army. I know that it is D & D’s writing , BUTTTTTTT. Had Sansa had LF killed or taken prisoner. She could have told Lord Royce the truth ( some of it anyways). LF killed lysa & threatened to have her killed. They already know that she is Sansa Stark. She could have come back from that meeting with LF & told Jon to the Wall to help out with the White Walker’s threat ( this before the Pink Letter). Little Finger had her pegged right, She would be mad at him, but wouldn’t kill him & he still has the Army that she needs. Hence, now she has to come to him once again for protection from her enemies. Yeah, she is still learning how to play the game. But, a 10 year old showed both her & Jon how it was done. Loved Lyanna Mormont. She was the best thing in this episode, along with Wun Wun & the Hound. I am not a Sansa hater however, Lying to her brother(cough cough Cousin) after he took her in & gave her his protection along with the Watch. That was a bad move on her part. I get her, she wants to call her own shots( as she should) however, she should listen to her family , even Brienne asked why she was lying. I can’t wait for the battle of the Bastards
Yet.
LawofFury,
“You reading too much into it. Littlefinger is going to screw them over, that’s just a fact.”
That’s not a fact. That’s a personal speculation that’s not supported by LF’s actions in book or show. Don’t be a jerk.
Judging from the scene of Littlefinger in the trailer (the one we haven’t seen yet, which appears to be in the Godswood of Winterfell), I anticipate events transpiring something like this:
Littlefinger arrives at the Snowbowl in time to win the battle for the Stark forces. His reward will strongly be hinted as Sansa’s hand in marriage, which as we saw in S5E6 take place in the Godswood of Winterfell. After the battle, Sansa will agree to marry him, before the heart tree in the Godswood. She will make sure to get him there alone, proving she can indeed manipulate him. Then, she will show up with Jon, or Davos, or maybe even Brienne, and have him killed.
Maybe it will go down differently, but I’m confident she will use the promise of her hand in marriage to lure him into a trap, because she knows only too well what Littlefinger is.
MoF,
In season 5, LF gets permission from Cersei to defeat whoever wins the battle of Winterfell and become Warden of the North. He did not know Bran and Rickon survived, so he could put that plan into action without opposition from Northerners by marrying Sansa himself. He probably married her to Ramsay in the first place, because after Ramsay, Sansa would not have high expectations about a husband (or so he thought).
Jon free of the NW oath has partially harmed these plans – Sansa might want Jon to be lord of Winterfell. So LF smartly caused mistrust about Jon in Sansa’s mind. The Vale army was always going to attack Winterfell (ruled by the winner of Boltons/Stannis), LF was waiting for the right occasion. Sansa’s escape provided him with a good chance. He will even have support of half the North, with Sansa as the figurehead for battle. After Sasa’s letter, LF will wait till most of the Stark army is destroyed and Jon hopefully dead, to steal the glory in last minute. No one will complain. There are very few things that would foil these plans:
1. Sansa has learned the game, and she will betray LF by telling the truth about Lysa and Jon Arryn, even Joffrey. Once she has Winterfell, and if Jon survives, Sansa has no need of LF. If she acts on that, good for her.
2. Brienne will meet the Hound on her way back to Sansa. The Hound will either join them, or there will be some conversation between Brienne Hound and Pod through which Brienne learns about LF’s role in Ned’s death. Sansa learns of this from Brienne – since Sansa knows that neither Brienne nor Hound are liars, she will finally pay LF back for all he did to her family.
Dolorous Methuselah,
Hhahahahaha I’ve thought that LF wotks in some way to NK and the WW
As we have seen so far, not much has worked in Sansa’s favour this season to drive her “Boss ass bitch” storyline home. She was not able to lure any of the houses using her Stark name as she would have hoped. So i think even though Jon will not appreciate her secret alliance to Littlefinger & might confront her on it, she will get to save the day at Winterfell with her Vale army…….But for the record,I hope it goes differently. I want the Stark kids as a team, full disclosure, totally in sync.
Revenge talk against LF is getting old. And obvious. Then what – Ramsay? (most justified). Joffrey’s already dead, he killed Ned. Cersei for killing Lady? Jaime for pushing Bran? The Freys and Lannisters for killing Robb and Cat? Dany for her brother carrying away Lyanna? Sweetrobin because his mother tried to kill her?And these are just all the ones that I have actually heard come out of people’s keyboards. LF has saved Sansa’s ass more than once, and the writers have stated outright that he didn’t know about Ramsay. For his own interests? Of course! But Sansa isn’t Arya, she doesn’t need a ‘list’. That storyline has been done.
Ginevra,
its just curious to me because when he did that major download the other day, there was no glimpse of it. We saw the red wedding, and ned’s death but not Jon’s
DId Bran even know that his family was massacred at the red wedding?
Im also curious because the 3ER used to take him to the pertinent visions. Will bran know how to get to them, or does he just need to touch a tree and it will take him where he needs to go.. or does he even need a tree anymore?
im babbling.
Just a quick question, the Bolton’s have 5,000 men, does anyone know how many the Karstarks and Umbers have? also does anyone know how big the Vale army is… as they haven’t incurred any losses at all yet.
Anyway 2500 or whatever Vs 7000 odd …. I’d say Sansa is totally correct in asking for help… it’s that or get destroyed by Ramsay to be honest.
If she has any doubts about Jon either refusing Littlefingers help or anything.. then she may not want to tell him until they are on the way to Winterfell.
The letter is clearly for Littlefinger, and really he is the only reasonable choice to ask for help. From the contents we can see Sansa addresses someone who is in command of the Knights of the Vale. This could be, in theory, Royce or even Robyn, besides Littlefinger. But going behind Petyrs back would be way to risky. Certainly the letter couldn’t go to Robyn because Littlefinger is with him, and controls him. There’s no mention of Littlefinger in the letter, so no sign that Littlefinger should be kept in the dark.
I’m really intrigued by this storyline because Sansa and Littlefinger a among my favorite characters. The obvious mystery is why Sansa keeps everything secret, and we simple don’t know at this point. It could be just on a hunch, or maybe Sansa has an elaborate plan. But we have to keep in mind she hasn’t much to work with. This has always been Sansa’s story: making the most of desperate circumstances and powerlessness.
I see a bit of irony in peoples complaints about Sansa’s plea for Littlefinger’s help, while the same people want her to run to Jon or Davos to make all the important decisions for her.
Sansa clearly knows that Littlefinger is dangerous, and if she deals with him she has to somehow control him. Her knowledge about the murder of Lysa could be one of the cards to play, especially in turning Robyn against him when necessary, he is the Lord of the Vale after all, and without him Petyr has not much actual power to command. If she wanted him dead right away she would have had him killed when they last met. Littlefingers strength is his scheming, but that can also be a weakness as Cersei showed him in the first season. Sometimes power is power and not knowledge an scheming. If someone just attacks him head on in the right situation, there might be no on to fight for him or protect him, because no one is actually loyal to him. He just uses others to do his dirty work.
Sacred Lime,
The Karstarks left before the Red Wedding, so they should have most of their army, depending on how many they lost during Robb’s war. I’d say the Bolton-Karstark-Umber forces are around 10k or so.
The Vale as a whole is said to be able to raise 45k soldiers, but it’s a book thing. I don’t know if LF is bringing all of them, but he should at least have 20k with him.
Bran has upgraded to Wi-Fi now! In the books, there was foreshadowing that Bran would eventually get to the point in his training where he would be able to see beyond the trees, which we’ve seen all season as far as there being visions where weirwoods are not close by. And in the show, Leaf said he wouldn’t have to stay at the tree cave forever. It’s still the weirwood network that is feeding his visions, but he doesn’t have to be physically attached any more.
We know that we’ll be getting more visions this season, and we know that we’ll have a Jon-centric episode. My guess is that the Jon-centric episode will be quite vision-heavy and will point toward Jon being The Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai Reborn. That’s when Bran will see Jon’s birth, death, and rebirth. That’s when Bran will become the kingmaker.
As much as he disgusts me, I kind of love Littlefinger. I mean, I wouldn’t be sad if he met the end of something pointy but he isn’t your ordinary, everyday villain. His game is full of moving parts. I wouldn’t expect Sansa to be able, or willing, to play the same type of game he does. He is the master at it and rarely, very rarely, do we see him with his guard down.
If Sansa offered her hand in marriage in exchange for his help, I don’t think he would buy it. Not if he considered the vitriol that Sansa threw at him, rightly so, when they met in Mole’s Town.
The one shit thing, well one of many, if LF comes to the rescue is during battle is he has one over on Sansa. Again. It might be all for naught, depending on Sansa’s next step but he would still be the one to save the north. Gross.
But I still want Jaime to get his for Bran. I will never let them dream go. 🙂
From dangers that he exposed her to.
Ginevra,
Very good point
Though this season, he was in the tree, and also holding on to a branch (?) of some sort. His mega download was through wifi though. So maybe that was it. haha.
I cant wait to see this Jon centric episode <3
Kells,
Exactly. ☺
Oops, guess she’ll have to kill Olenna too then.
By that standard, since Jorah saved Tyrion’s life, but made the decision to kidnap him and go through Valyria in the first place, Tyrion should be seeking vengeance for that, I suppose.
And on and on it goes.
Pigeon,
Littlefinger has been the chief architect of all of House Stark’s troubles in this series. That’s not the sort of thing that’s in the past, particularly as he’s continuing to play them for his own benefit.
Thanks for that Flayed Potatoes, so with the numbers Jon and Sansa currently have they are well and truly screwed. I love it!! I have absolutely no idea what is going to happen!!!! As long as Ramsay has no head by the end of the Season I will be happy
Im just going to blurt out my tin-foil hat theory and if it ends up being right im buy the first lottery tickeyt in my life after.
Sansa is D&D’s favorite whipping post they love letting the fans finally start to think she might be something then they whip her some more and im sick of it. Man how much character underdevelopment can they do to her.
So this is what I see happening and its way TIN-FOIL. Sansa will send the Letter and it will be intercepted …………….. wait……………….for………………….it…………………..
By Jamie after the Brienne conversation this week, Jamie will then march his troops north and be the one to save Sansa and the North…………….. Ya still hoping for his redemption arc and Sansa is the arc! Im still holding out for his book line and if he ever says it on the show in any way shape or form I will be thrilled.
With Sansa so worried about A Ravens Interception (arnt all ravens fans) to the point she sent Brienne to see Blackfish in person why would she now Risk it just seems like bad writing on the shows part. But does still leave the redemption arc open.
Ok Hat off and this is what will happen… She sends the Raven next EP and in E9 The Vale Army flies in on Littlefinger model 181 jet packs to save the day.
Sacred Lime,
No problem. Yes, Ramsay has spearmen, archers, and cavalry too based on the trailers (so this makes things even difficult). Jon could truly use all that cavalry from the Vale.
Connor,
Just like Lord of the Rings, those damn eagles will save everyone. Just use the eagles right away and be done with it!
But…but they have a giant in their army! How come nobody mentions this!
Sean C.,
100% want a pay off. Why should Sansa be denied some retribution or revenge? Arya had some kills. Jon got to hang the mutineers. Tyrion killed Tywin and Shae. Miss me with that bull, take them down Sansaaaa!
r-hard,
Yes yes yessir
*Onion
Mustangride,
Heres why i think this may happen too…do you remember what Roose bolton said to Ramsay in the Red Woman ep1
He said do you feel like a winner?
Well do you?
2000 Baratheons arent the same as 8000 Lannisters w a provisioned and prepared army…
Foreshadowing….
Apollo,
Oh well….See? That’s what I mean. Everyone is saying that Sansa is writing to Littlefinger offering to marry him. WHY NOT just write to her COUSIN, the ACTUAL LORD of the Vale and ask him to come? Then, if/when she gets a positive response, she can tell Jon!
Sean C.,
He also caused all the Lannisters problemsm, too – framing Tyrion for attempting to kill Bran, making Lysa write a letter to Catelyn making it seem like Cersei killed Jon Arryn, poisoning Joffrey.
What if Sansa is writing this letter to Theon hoping that he could bring his Ironborn to help her?
He has sworn to protect her, and she is desperate. She knows he went back home. The reward would be her way of providing incentive to the Ironborn.
Because Robin would still be breast feeding if his Mom didnt take a one way trip to Moon Door island…unreliable…LF is *i cant believe Im typing this* more trustworthy lol
Because it reads “the Vale”…
Do you think Theon is going to tell Tyrion about Little Finger bringing Sansa to Winterfell and marrying her to Ramsey. Or Brienne will tell Jaime about it. How long will it take them to figure out Littlefinger’s involvement in Joffrey’s death?
Onion Knight don’t cry,
Yes, you are right. My mistake
I don’t have a problem with Sansa requesting help from the Vale, even if she has to rely on sleazy Little Finger. I clearly see the need for more men, no one can deny that the Vale forces will most certainly seal the deal for this Stark army. My problem with her actions have to do with the secrecy, with keeping important information from her brother. Yes, she’s been screwed over in life but so has Jon. The thing is that Jon is going to be the one in the battlefront leading men and killing men. You don’t send your general into battle without all the information he needs. So I hope for everyone’s sake that Sansa comes clean to Jon before they march into battle. In doing so, she should also warn Jon about Little Finger: we accept his help because there are no other options but he’s not to be trusted.
All good bro…theorizing is half the fun!
Oooooooooooooo….i hope some variation of thos happens! Good stuff!
Shaz,
Jon wasn’t seeking retribution or revenge when he hanged the mutineers. He really had no other course of action. He even felt bad about it but really what else could he have done, what else could the Night’s Watch do with people who murdered their own lord commander?
Shaz,
Yaaas
Ingelheim,
Has everyone forgotten that Sansa is still technically married to Tyrion…?
How bout Sansa marries Robyn? (concrete alliance between North and East)
and the “reward” LF gets it to fly out of the moon gate, or a variety of other entertaining deaths.
I think the letter is to Robyn because Sansa was looking at Lyanna Mormant and then in the very next scene she is writing the letter. Sansa wrote “Knights of the Vale are under your command” to remind Robyn that he is in charge. I think she would have phrased it differently if it was to LF. I think Lyanna Mormant and the scene in episode 4 with LF, Robyn, and Royce sets us up for this being a letter to Robyn.
Here are my ideas. definitely wrote to LF and SanLFhe will use that but the fact is that he has no other choice but to help her. He went too far with Robin and Royce to step back now. Besides that, will definitely leave Riverrun for the North one way or another, and there is a big possibility that he will meet Royce whom he knows. Together they could establish control over the army and go to help Jon and Sansa even if LF plats something different. What I really wonder is who is that friend in the North LF mentioned when talking with Robin and how he will fit into the picture. Imho, that might be Manderlly but there are other possibilities as well. Anyway I hope that the scheme will not work as and that LF will t a due rewacedduein ep 10. On the other hand he may stick to Jon after discovering that he is a hair to the throne. This would be both handy and dissapointing and right in the style of GoT.
What will happen if Sansa plays Little Finger to save them, and while Little Finger thinks he’s playing her and intends to cross them, there is ONE thing Sansa has over him: The murder of Lysa Tulley. If she tells the son and the army, they might kill little finger right there and then. At that point She could marry Robin and manipulate him. Cutting little finger out of the game for good and then inheriting everything little finger worked for. It might not happen on the battlefield, she might initially promise him marriage. But she might cross him first.
I don’t get this theory that LF will send the Vale knights only after Jon’s army has been decimated. LF will not be leading the army, he is not a military man; Royce will. LF will be a bystander, army commander in name only, much like Sansa with the northern army. Will Royce really let the northern army be decimated?
Janna,
Lyanna Mormont hasn’t. However, their marriage was never consummated and therefore isn’t binding (in the show).
Ingelheim,
She is already married (twice)
Nadia,
A lot of these expectations are based on the much touted north remembers theme, Tywin calling Sansa the key to the north and Roose telling Ramsay they can’t rule the north without a Stark. That it has not played out like that at all so far was pretty disappointing for me personally.
You may be right. We will find out in less than three weeks.
Janna,
Not in the show. Per 503, their marriage is invalid due to non-consummation, and unlike the books there’s no annulment requirement.
Littlefinger owes Sansa big time and since he is always out for himself I think he will come to her aid. Her marriage to Tyrion while unconsummated could still provide an importance alliance in the future when Daeny and Jon meet up. I certainly hope she is not pregnant but merely very anxious about being in such close proximity to her abuser.
The showrunners really wanted someone to do that and make us all analyze!
This situation with asking Littlefinger is kind of frustrating but Sansa really didn’t have any other good option. Of course, it would be better if she told Jon, but I can understand why she didn’t. Can’t wait to see how it all turns out.
Steez,
Well she also knows about LF’s involvement in Joffrey’s death.
They did get 3 houses to join- given the way medieval societies work there would be others waiting before picking sides – the Boltons are not popular- note that while Glover didn’t join them he didn’t turn on them either.
Death to LF through the Moon door! That is his reward
ash,
The letter is almost certainly to LF, there is a slight chance it is to Royce, it’s a pity because a letter to Royce WOULD work- he is in fact in charge of the Vale’s army (LF does know his limitations- he’s no general, Royce is- and LF had Royce assemble the army)- and his liege lord, Sweet Robin basically ordered him to help Sansa (plus he knew Ned and was apparently friendly with him).
How big is Arryn’s/ the Vale’s army?
Smaller than the Lannisters (Westerlands) and Tyrell’s (The Reach)
Bigger than what’s left of the Riverlands and the Stormlands-
You’d think the Vale can raise an army that outweighs the Boltons/Umbers/Karstarks/Manderleys- but how big an army can they raise, support and march several hundred miles north – that’s the question- Stannis strated out with more men than the Boltons and by the time he reached Winterfell he had less than half the men the Bolton’s had and no horses left.
What if she sent the letter to directly to Robin or Lord Royce, not Littlefinger. Then the reward could be spilling the beans on Littlefinger, so they can get him out of the Vale. Hard for me to believe she hasn’t learned something from all the schemers around her. She hates Petyr why would she ask him for anything?
Something to think about . . .
Well, Apollo and I must have watched the same show, because that is exactly the conversation Cersei and LF had. Tywin is dead, his plans are out the window. Cersei said the only way she knows LF is loyal to the crown would be if he brings her Sansa’s head on a stick. Cersei wants Sansa dead, because in her eyes she and Tyrion are responsible for Geoffrey’s death. So please check your facts before you make condescending remarks.
My tin foil fantasy – Sweetrobin finds out who really killed his mother and pushes LF through the moon door, or, better yet, shoots him with a “well aimed” arrow LOL. Who better than Robin himself to put an end to LF and become the real lord of the Vale.
I so dearly hope that Sansa does not end up back in Littlefinger’s clutches.
One thought: maybe she’s not telling Jon what she’s doing so that he isn’t obligated to Littlefinger. She can promise that little shit all sorts of things, but if Jon isn’t party to those agreements, he’s not bound by them, and remains free to dispense justice for LF’s crimes – if, for example, Sansa were to tell him that LF is guilty of Lysa’s murder.
Yeah, I’m probably overthinking it. But I don’t think Sansa’s doing this without a plan.
I’m hoping that Sansa has upped her Gaming skills & that letter was sent to BronzeYon. It’s a Win/Win for both of them.
An alliance with Bronze Yon would bring Sansa the military power of The Vale (to physically take back Winterfell), and the political power of his influence with other Lord of The Vale. Both will add to Sansa’s political credibility with the Lords in the North. She’s giving them a reason to believe that she is capable of mustering a force to take the North AND that she’s also capable of holding & ruling The North.
Bronze Yon on the other hand, will get a military alliance with Sansa/The North AND Sansa’s personal influence over WhinyRobin, thereby minimizing CreepyFinger’s influence in The Vale & increasing his own influence & standing in The Vale. All of that for marching his army into a battle they were already going to fight.
Here you go, she wants Sansa’s head on a spike..
I understand almost everything Sansa has done. I understand why she turned down Lf’s first offer and wanted to do everything without him. I understand why she’s now writing to him for help. The only thing I don’t understand is why she still hasn’t mentioned anything to Jon. Hopefully she does.
Yes “reward” is intriguingly vague. It could mean he gets what’s coming to him. I hope she isn’t offering herself as a reward, that would be depressing.
GeekFurious,
If she wrote the letter to Bronze Yon she may just be nervous about what CreepyFinger will do when he finds out that she’s trying to cut him out of the power loop in The Vale.
she is tempting him and she will finish him off after he delivery the numbers sufficient for Jon to win
I don’t like Sansa and I could rant at length about all the reasons why and will likely do so another time but I’d like to point out to all vale supporters that when a foreign army comes to establish a ruler we are talking about invasions or at the very least political dependance. there are a lot of holes in little finger’s plots but I am not sure if this is him or just the writing, so this is for different time as well. or maybe I just want someone to ask me. on the matter, at hand though, for some reason ,I am remembering the spoiler about the shooting of a tense scene at Winterfell between little finger, Jon and Sansa. Whatever happens during the battle of the bastards it is clear Jon is going to win because plot :), what I am thinking is that Jon is going to win with just the men he has, in order to sell him as the better commander I suppose. The vale (?)and the black fish, if he comes, will arrive after the battle and the lateness will be deliberate. With one bastard gone, all he needs to do is remove the other in order for Sansa to be queen. I don’t know if she wants it, if it is because of what he told her back in the crypts or if it is the entitlement stick up her ass but Sansa wants to rule the north and in her eyes Jon is her subject even if she is as fit to rule as Cersei. she came to the lord commander of the night’s watch to take his army not to her brother for protection all those episodes back, she believes that all Jon wants is to be a Stark, as true as that might be it is not his only motivation, even if plot/screen Jon is a 2-dimetional mess. the wolf embroidery she gave him was but scraps to better control him not an honest act of affection.
to put it simply I am thinking that the scene is going to take place after the battle is won, much to Sansa’s surprise and she will waltz in with army expecting to be crowned queen of all the north and head south to take revenge on the Lanisters, liberate the Tully and etc, to her those white walkers are a distant and unrealistic concern. Jon will understandably feel betrayed and refuse to back down.
come to think of it Arya will likely kill her stalker and give Jácken her face to add to the wall, this paying the debt and getting away. maybe go with the players back to Westeros, meet the hound and/or her uncle and head to Winterfell.
I like to think that Sansa didn’t tell Jon and crew about Littlefinger’s offer because she knew they’d be too enticed to take him up on it without truly understanding what that means. Which is more dangerous, relying on Littlefinger for support (poor Ned) or owing him for his support (another husband for Sansa?)? She knows that at the end of the day Littlefinger serves Littlefinger.
I think it would be an awesome twist (and sorry if alot of people have said this already) if Sansa actually sent the letter to Bronze Yohn Royce who we know is leading the knights of the Vale, offered her protection back when she was testifying on the death of Lysa and is more trustworthy than Littlefinger.
That just seems like the smarter/safer play. While Sansa may be one of Littlefinger’s few weaknesses, from her Tommy Boy road trip with Jon and Davos she showed that her skills are not quite sharp enough. Aim small, miss small.
“Is he truly regretful or continuing to play Sansa?”
I think he’s regretful (mostly because his plan did not pan out) AND continuing to play Sansa. I can’t wait for Sansa to kill him. (Yup, I’d like him to die in her hands.) However, I don’t think it’s gonna happen this season. With Ramsay possibly gone, the series will need to have 1 villain around who could mess things up for the protagonists as regards the coming war with the WW. It can’t just be the North vs. the WW throughout the season.
i can’t see the letter going to anyone other than LF. the letter starts with ‘you promised to protect me…..’
LF made that promise.
brienne made that promise.
jaime promised to safely deliver her to her mother. a moot point now.
now one else has made a promise to protect her. certainly not robin or lord royce.
Yeah, Liam said it in some interview that I think (although I’m not positive) was posted on this site. NCW said it on a Twitter Q&A. His exact words were: “Caitlyn, you asked me, ‘Besides Jaime’s storyline, who’s story are you most interested in this season?’ I am curious to see what happens…what goes on with with Sansa. And Theon. I think that’s going to be interesting.” And Isaac said it in a recent interview with HBO. The question was, “If you were king, which character would you choose for your hand?” He responded with, “I’d have Sansa. To be honest, I think she’d make a better queen, but she’d be a pretty mean Hand. She’s certainly had to grow a thick skin, having been bandied about by all these horrible characters from Joffrey to Littlefinger to Ramsay. She’s also been exposed to that very cunning side of politics and seen how power corrupts. So I think she would have a very good grasp on how to rule. Plus, she’s a Stark.”
lol. Excellent. I’m pleased I spared you the hassle of having to type the same thing. 😉 I felt that way about voicing my displeasure over the rape. I was like, eh. Everything that Sean C person is saying…I second it. :p 😉
Girl, let me tell you. This Sansa shit has me more stressed than ‘real life’ stuff. 😉 Real life is pretty consistent and straightforward. This Sansa business is vague and simultaneously uplifting and depressing. They say the last thing to die is hope, and I feel the realness of saying every single season of this freaking show. I have hope, damnit! I hope against hope that Sansa will become (and REMAIN) a character worth rooting for; a character who grows and develops and learns from her own mistakes. Fucking A, I hope against hope for VINDICATION for having loved this character and believed she could be more than a selfish, naive girl who gets played like a chump fool by everyone in Westeros. I hope against hope that she would become an independent ‘player’ capable of making intelligent decisions–for herself and by herself–that will impact her personal story and the overall story in a POSITIVE way. I have hope, damnit! And in the end, I may prove to be just as naive as Sansa, but I will continue to hope against hope until Sansa’s punk ass either proves me right, or dies. :p One of those two things is bound to happen at some point. 😉
Not supported by LF’s actions in the book or show? Have we been watching the same show (or reading the same books for that matter)? So framing her for murder, putting her in the position of Lysa’s wrath (by kissing her) and then selling her off like a prostitute for his own personal gain doesn’t make you suspect that he DOESN’T have her best interests at heart? Let’s also throw in the fact that HE prevented her marriage to Loras, which would have gotten her out of KL and kept her ‘safe’ (if that was ever even something he was interested in to begin with).
Like, let’s stop romanticizing this relationship. At every single turn he has done everything to subvert her independence, her safety, her peace, and her happiness, and he has done it all for the sake of his OWN agenda. If he comes with the Vale troops, that doesn’t make him some ‘hero’. He owes her for having sold her like a freaking prostitute to be raped and abused…and if she ends up killing him this season, then let it be for that same reason. Because that reason is reason enough.
Can understand the practicality of asking the Vale for help
After all they are the freshest army untouched by the Wo5K so their best troops still exist
There’s even a positive side to the argument in that the gesture helps Sansa’s relationship with LF heal…
There is a problem though in that if Jon (and Davos) don’t enter this into their calculus, theyd do things they wouldn’t do otherwise, like attack to early or get caught in a battlefield trap etc
Sounds like it’s setting things up for Sansa/Vale Army saves the day etc but it would have been unnecassary
I very much took that as foreshadowing as well. Not necessarily in the context of the Lannister forces fighting for/with the Starks in the battle for Winterfell (which would be awesome), but definitely as something that should be paid attention too. I also took his comment about, “Act like a mad dog/be treated like a mad dog,” to be foreshadowing as well.
mau,
This. I think this is it. Littlefinger brings the Knights of the Vale, and they help Jon, Sansa and company win back Winterfell. Sansa reveals Littlefinger’s murder of Lysa. Littlefinger is put to death.
Kosten,
Yes, but “banding together” in the face of common threats is not “fantasy smut.” It’s realistic, and is a common phenomenon throughout history, validated by various “alliance theories.” Sansa’s distrust of Jon, given their common goals and familial relationship, is not necessarily more realistic than her trusting him. To me, it is either reflective of her “over-learning” political lessons, or reflective of a “conflict for its own sake” script. Thus far, we have not been given a compelling reason for Sansa to distrust Jon to the degree that she does.
That said, I do think Sansa is the ultimate survivor. As Tyrion said to Sansa in Season 2, “You will outlast us all.” She’s making it all the way.
This year is a story about the personal cost of making alliances. Sansa just learned the hard way that loyalty is a two-way street, and that her brothers’ and mother’s actions cost her family the loyalty of the northerners. So, the feather bed and roses path is out. We saw what Daeny did to get allies that didn’t want her. We’ve seen what Jon had to suffer to gain his allies. We’ve seen Tyrion is doing to turn enemies into neutral parties. We’ve even seen Jaime and Cersei get into the act. We probably will see Arya do something along these lines.
That was Sansa’s turn. She had to suck it up and entreat a man she hates for help. Really, if it’s anyone else, then this is all plot and no story.
Sansa does not know that LF will return. She sent him away rather brusquely, after all: and she does not know him as we do. (If she had been watching the show, then she’d know that he’s been angling to get Vale troops to Winterfell all along for some reason: but she has not been!)
As Gandalf told the men of Gondor, at this point assume that Rohan is not going to make it. It would be foolhardy for Jon et al. to plan for an army that might not come. In many ways, they are better off proceeding with whatever plans Jon has and hope to Old, New, Red, Many-Faced and any other gods that LF provides Sansa with a pleasant surprise.
(And, let’s face it: stalling would be more apt to get them trapped now.)
Sansa just learned the hard way that loyalty is a two-way street. You do not reward allies by having them executed.
Strictly speaking, LF sold her off like a daughter. If he was selling her off like a prostitute, then he would not have demanded marriage, just money. And remember: until very recently, this was how the world worked. In fact, some parts of the world still work like this: arranged marriages with dowries still exist. And they would take great offense to the idea that they were treating their daughters like prostitutes. (On the contrary, they would be more apt to equate Western mores with prostitution: in fact, they frequently do!)
Sean C.,
Amen. From having Lysa poison Jon, to having her send the letter to Cat, the whole thing with the dagger creating the issue between Tyrion and Cat, betraying Ned, undermining Varys’s plan to get Sansa out of KL, etc., etc., he has been the chief instigator of House Stark’s demise. Guess he finally got even with Brandon.
As for the “reward”
My personal guess is that when IMO Sansa forges her RL Kingdom (maybe the North?), the reward will be for LF to be Hand
Obviously Brienne would make a capable LC of her QG and Blackfish a capable battlefield General
Which means that post RR we could be in for Jaimie vs BF 2.0
He’s a creep but you have to admit that if he’s working for your interests and not undermining you then LF would make for a capable Hand type figure. And it would represent his ascension up the ladder etc from being Lord of a Big Castle and on the SC
Not gonna even bother reading the comments. Conversations about Sansa and/or Littlefinger bring out the worst of the worst of the fandom.
Wimsey,
You do not reward allies by having them executed
Until you have no further need for them. I know there are debates about LF’s fate. Personally I don’t think Sansa will be the one to end Lord Baelish’s climb up the ladder, but I can see the appeal in that
Will Sansa eventually be the downfall of Littlefinger, Ramsey, both? This reminds me of something a friend from High Heart once said.
People who think Littlefinger will fuck Jon up….let me remind you that Jon has already been fucked up completely…you don’t fuck anyone up more than killing them….In fact I think Jon’s heart is not in this war…He just wants to get it over with and possibly die in the process. He does not seem like a person that’s looking forward to winning.
Indeed! And thanks! 🙂
And whilst he may not actually kill her (but then with LF who the hell knows?), the very fact he’s agreed to that mission, gone north and, ya know, fought the Boltons (per Cersei’s command) would lead any intelligent person who heard this news (i.e. Sansa, Brienne etc.) to kill him.
Thanks for the clip- this is what I was looking for! 🙂 🙂
I’m counting on Jaime and Brienne having a very interesting conversation in RR (although it may not happen, which IMO would be a plot hole):
Brienne: I’m here with a message for the Tullys to raise arms for Lady Sansa blah blah blah
Jaime: Well that ain’t happening, they’re under siege etc.
Brienne: will you fulfill your oath by bringing your forces north then?
Jaime: erm…no… It’s winter and besides, I’m not going up against the Vale- LF is up there now on Cerseis orders blah blah blah
Brienne: WTAF…Time to mop this shit up quickly, and get my ass back north
Maybe this has been mentioned earlier, but is it possible that the letter is meant for Robyn instead of LF?
I do not understand why people are angry at Sansa for not telling Jon.
Jon is obviously trusting Davos. Sansa has been warned by Brienne not to trust Davos. Jon and Davos do object to her suggestion to find more houses and men and are now planning a suicide mission. Does someone really think that they would agree to wait for Littlefinger’s help? Jon may not know Littlefinger’s reputation, but the other Northern Lords and especially Davos know his reputation. Moreover, what should have Sansa said “Well, he has sold me to the Boltons, but he kind of likes me and he will help us?”
To fight with 2500 men against the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers is stupid. Sansa has seen how Stannis’ army was defeated by the Boltons and she knows what Ramsay will do to all surviving men as she knows him better than any Northern Lord or Davos or Jon. She is just trying to save her people, her brother and herself. As her opinion obviously does not matter for Jon/Davos she does not bother to ask them.
I’m not sure how many men LF has at his disposal, but it seems he will be the by far the largest and primary force involved in retaking taking Winterfell if they are able to Succeed. Ramsey and the Boltons (sounds like a band) are routed, leaving LF’s forces in control. I don’t see him giving up Winterfell just like that. He may want a ceremonial, at the least, marriage to Sansa. But all hell will breakout with Jon and Davos (and possibly Arya after using her Trans-Bravos jet pack). Should be fun whatever happens.
ghost of winterfell,
We’re on the same page on this one! 🙂
If there’s one character I’d like to use the jetpack, it’s Arya. Ahhh, I’d like her to reunite with her loved ones already – Jon, Nymeria, Sansa, Bran/Rickon (?), Gendry, The Hound (in order of importance to her). 🙂
EXACTLY! A fact that many seem to be overlooking.
Both these characters will be in the location (WF) and positions required for the prophecy, with Sansa in a position of safety, security and true power (for the first time in 6 years).
It’s happening, people! LFs game is up 🙂
Ramsay has Rickon. The one that can continue the Stark line. Her brother.
Sansa knows what Ramsay is capable of.
Of course she will make a deal with the devil aka LF to save her brother because she knows 2,500 are not enough to defeat him.
She is not weak, making a deal with the devil to save your brother and house is a brave thing to do.
For her sake I hope Brienne makes it back north from RR and it is her and the pointy end of Oathkeeper he is looking at.
But she doesn’t really, not yet. Something like this will probably happen, but only after Sansa has learned and fully processed that Littlefinger personally betrayed her father to his imprisonment and death.
I think this won’t happen until next season, possibly midway through, since it will be the climax of Sansa’s story arc. I predict this season, Ramsey dies but Littlefinger lives on.
Pfffsht! Littlefinger’s reward will be taking the black or a merciful death. Sansa’s hold on Winterfell is the indisputable heir she’s carrying (the real secret from Jon and one of few things she could know that LF doesn’t). She acts as if she has an ace up the sleeve, no? It’s been foreshadowed since Season 1 episode 1 that the place for her in this world comes by making an heir. It’s the most unfortunate making; but the Queen in the North will have her seat at the table. All Ramsay has to do is die.
Some of you aren’t looking at this logically. Go back to what LF told Cersei last season. He was basically asking her permission to bring in the KOTV to destroy whoever won the Stannis-Bolton battle. His reward for destroying the winner was to be named Warden of The North. Cersri then told LF she “would speak to the King this evening and have him issue a Royal Decree”. So, if she has indeed done that and LF leads the KOTV to Winterfell and they succeed what happens now that Jon Snow is in the picture? Yes he is a Bastard and he is also in the way of LF’s master plan. At that point LF has no idea that Jon was going to be involved he thought he was stuck at The Wall and would be there forever. Jon is the one in LF’s way at this point.
So, LF has to either get Jon out of the way or marry Sansa. There is no doubt LF will want Jon out of the way if he is to save the day. The other Lords in the north aren’t going to rally behind LF though they will look at Jon as the hero. Do you think Jon or anyone else is just going to step aside and let LF be named Warden of the North by Tommen? Jon is in LF’s way and he will be who potentially gets screwed over not Sansa.
RosanaZugey,
My thoughts exactly. I have been waiting and waiting and continue to be disappointed, especially after all the Sansa hype this season. After the awesome reunions with Brienne and Jon, I now have to put up with her lying and hiding info to Jon, mistrusting Davos, being totally ineffectual and humiliated in her recruiting the north and crawling back to LF after all he has done to her. It’s like Sansa cannot never catch a break. I no longer know what kind of pay off will justify 6 seasons of waiting.
Ha, I love this! Make it so, please.
LawofFury,
I hope Sansa double crosses Littlefinger the way he double crossed her father, and Brienne chops his head off.
As long as Littlefinger lives, Jon is not safe because Littlefinger wants to be Warden of the North, Lord of the Vale, he has Harrenhal, and soon King’s Landing. “I want it all.”
Maybe Jamie will kill Littlefinger when Brienne tells Jamie that Littlefinger and Olenna killed Joffrey. At least I hope Brienne tells him…hopefully Sansa told her.
Or maybe when Littlefinger is wandering around in the woods outside Winterfell, a Whitewalker snatches him
Why would Sansa need to offer LF a reward. He told her he brought the knights of the vale to save her. He told her he would do anything to make up for his mistake with Ramsy. When she said if I want for you to die, he said then I will die. She only needs to reminde him that HE owes her. So… 1) Either the interpretation is wrong. 2) She is sending it to Robin, although I don’t rember him ever offering to protector. 3) She’s offers him a reward because she a idiot and her own worst enemy. (See what I did there;) Or 4) DD are just fucking with people ( myself included ) that spend way to much time decoding, enhancing, hunting down easter eggs, and coming up with a 1000 different theories on every little thing we find lol
What if it’s not little finger she’s writing to but her cuz Robin? A little twist perhaps?
Also, look at it this way. If Littlefinger is determined on using the Knights of the Vale to secure Winterfell/The North for himself, as in his discussion with Cersei, he doesn’t even need an invitation from Sansa.
Athelstane,
..unless Littlefinger is the true author of that letter.
Athelstane,
Psychopaths are not gentle, or humane, or warm, Gillen.
I don’t know what’s going to happen. All I know is I don’t want a single one of the Free Folk to die. I don’t want Jon to die. I don’t even want the already bleeding allied northern houses to lose any fighters.
The army of the dead is massive. Jon said once that they would need every single man to fight it, and even then, it might not be enough.
Why are they unseating Ramsey again? I lost track of all the rationalizations. Is it to save Rickon(lost cause)? Is it to unite the North? Who says the Karstarks will be down with that idea? Northerners are xenophobic and don’t like the Free Folk – so how’s that going to work?
My gut says this march on Winterfell is like Robb’s error where he came up with a strategy on impulse and decided that to execute the strategy, he needed more men, and the only way to get more men was to go crawling back to Walder Frey, a man who he’d just basically told to go f*ck himself. The question is, was the original strategy his only option?
I know that Jon doesn’t want to do this. Something is really bothering him inside.
Is clusterf*ck too strong a word to use here?
He’s afraid he’s going to die again. The carefree boy was killed and reborn a cautious man.
LawofFury,
That won’t happen because we know
jinx47,
We already know that
so that won’t happen.
Anon,
Such a clusterfuck!
Maybe the Freys end up helping to take out Ramsay. They don’t have to be on Stark/Snow side for it to happen. They’ll find out about dead Walda and the baby Frey/Bolton, eventually. If Brienne gets that word to Riverrun, they could all be headed North for different reasons. Clusterfuck!
I know this is a somewhat wild speculation, but could Sansa be writing to
I just re-watched the episode and I’m not sure that screenshot of the letter is the same as the letter in the episode. I didn’t see a fold on the left side (on TV it would be on the right side because Sansa’s writing facing us).
DireWolfHeart,
That would be cool if the
ManderlyPieCompany,
I think they would do something along the lines of Ramsay, Kartark and Umber has their men on one side Jon, Tormund and Davos has his in Stannis’ strategic position. Ramsay does something to the effect of telling Jon to surrender or Rickon gets killed. The Lord Umber has Rickon in hand. The Bolton men ride out about to attack when Wun-Wun who was laying down in the mist of the Wilding army rises out and gives a ganster war cry. The men stop and many cower in fear. Ramsay kills one of his men and gets the rest to attack. The fight ensues when the Cries of the King in the North! King of the North! Chants wave through. Umbers ride off on the side with Mandarlys and Cerwyns. They change sides and attack the Bolton force. Screaming King in the North raising Rickon in the air. Shaggydog appears attacking Boltons. The Vale forces show up to finish off the Bolton/Karstark forces. The Starks win. Petyr rides to Sansa and tells her she’s losing power over the North, something must be done about Rickon if she is to be Queen in the North. She says your right, looks at Shaggydog then looks at Petyr. Shaggydog runs over and rips Petyr to shreds.
Why can’t Sansa be writing to Sweet Robin? He wants to marry Sansa and offered to protect as well.
TO be honest it would make more sense. Sansa would then have SR under her spell and could have SR execute LF once she tells him what really happened.