Just a few days ago, season eight of Game of Thrones resumed filming and we are already seeing it bear fruit with new info from our sources! Slight spoilers below the cut!
As we told you, Kit Harington was seen in Belfast a few days ago and, according to Los Siete Reinos, now Peter Dinklage is there now. The cast and crew may have just gone back to work, but we already have our first exclusive spoilers from the set.
We last saw the crypt of Winterfell in The Spoils of War, when Sansa and Arya reunited in front of their late father’s new statue. According to our sources, at least the first two episodes of season eight will see the return of this hallowed site, which is filmed on-location at Shane’s Castle. In fact, we may return to a similar kind of scene: reportedly, in the one to be shot today and tomorrow, two main characters discuss Ned’s death.
Yesterday, Shane’s Castle also housed two starring cast members. Rather ominously, their scene ends with a horn being blown. Let’s hope it doesn’t blow three times!
It seems unlikely for the White Walkers to appear in Winterfell so soon, as that moment takes place very early in the season. Still, they will probably arrive eventually, and it seems that Winterfell’s crypt may appear during these episodes too. Game of Thrones director of photography Fabian Wagner, who is working with Miguel Sapochnik in the third and fifth episodes, happened to post a nice shot of Shane’s Castle just yesterday:
As Sapochnik may be directing a battle in Winterfell, could his DP visiting Shane’s Castle point to Winterfell’s crypt being included in this fight against the Night King?
Speaking of the (icy) devil, those who are supposed to protect the realms against the White Walkers will be back for one last hurrah. Considering last season ended with the breach of Eastwatch, the Night’s Watch’s life expectancy can’t be very promising right now, but if that’s the case they will go out fighting: our sources tell us the Night’s Watch extras have been stunt training and will shoot soon, probably next week.
OMG, OMG, OMG!!!! I have long hypothesized that the stone Kings of Winterfell and their stone direwolves would rise and fight the army of the dead!!! That’s why there always has to be a Stark at Winterfell, why Ned and Jon dreamed of the kings in the crypts, and why the eyes of the stone kings always follow everyone around, in almost every crypt visit mentioned in the books. I am thrilled that this will happen in the show, too!
And I’ve also suspected that the Barrowlands with all of those dead bodies waiting might be really good news or really bad news for the living. I’m sure the stone kings will fight for the living, though, under the command of a living Stark.
Hodor!
More Winterfell is always a good thing. I suspect there will be discussion on Ned AND Lyanna Stark.
I expected that the WW will attack Castle Black before they go to WF.
Making the 8,
I think that’s where Bran will tell Jon the truth.
HODOR…i think will see the NW action in the first episode and also hearing the news that Wall in Eastwatch fell ..Tormund and Beric..if they are alive still..they will head at Castle Black first for to inform Ed and the others for the destruction..but will be late because the NK will arrive there and the fight will start ..Ed will die for sure..stabbed by a WW and Tormund or Beric or both they will have to head in Winterfel for to inform Jon/Danny about the Wall and the NW being destroyed by the NK ..Also Tyrion will be there in Winterfell ..and Bran will reveal his betrayal to Danny/Jon over Cercei..Might Danny/Jon burn/hang/behead him or better keep him under control[he is stil useful].. ..so Tyrion to cannot have the freedom to do what he wants..That also will make Varys to start to worried about his own life..because he is manipulating Tyrion to do those things ..and this manipulation will revealed also by Bran..Varys is no different than Littlefinger ..They are from the same paste ..
Artemisia,
Based on what we saw in the season 7 finale, a Tyrion betrayal with Cersei is definitely possible. I just don’t think Varys and Tyrion would do that. They’ve been painted primarily as good characters and it wouldn’t make sense to me if they decided to betray Dany after all they went through to get behind her. Tyrion loves his family but he’s not dumb enough to conspire with Cersei at this point.
Its most likely Jon and Bran discussing Jons parentage and why Ned had to keep it a secret.
Dont think the WW will attack Winterfell so soon but in a series like Game of Thrones you never know.
Yup, I can definitely see Jon returning to the crypts to visit both Ned AND Lyanna after Bran and Sam reveal the truth about his parentage. Can’t wait to see that go down. Also, I was thinking the WW would just start heading south rather than take a detour to Castle Black then head back down south again. I figured the remaining Brothers would head to Winterfell.
Well maybe, but I see Cersei doing the main manipulating to Tyrion, not Varys, though he has his own plans.
I get the feeling that Bran already told Sansa and Arya about Jon.
I’m not 100% sure but Bran ended up with the scroll that Sansa used with her talk to LF; before his death.
I always hoped the crypts be more then looking at Ned or Lyanna, so here’s hoping.
Maisie’s stunt double posted on instagram exactly 7 days ago that should be leaving California for a long period to film in Belfast and added the #winteriscoming. Her husband replied that he would miss her a lot. This was last Friday! Maisie wrapped up her promo for Early Man 2 days later and has not been spotted in London since. It would be safe to assume she is also in Belfast this week.
This is 11 hours ago: Kit and Rose spotted in NYC
https://twitter.com/cheskabcdefg/status/954207630087499777
So whoever’s in the crypts, Jon’s likely not there.
Gravemaster,
Then maybe Sansa and Tyrion.
Interesting theories. I can’t see Tyrion betraying Dany especially with the threat looming.
The first thing that came to my mind was Sansa and Arya or Bran and the horn announcing Dany and Jon’s arrival.
We will see … this is exciting!
Gravemaster,
There’s a twitter user questioning when that photo was taken because WotW already confirmed Kit flew back to Belfast on the 17th. Someone had spotted him at the airport.
mau,
Sophie’s in Paris with her fiancé, so she’s not filming now either.
FYI: To the author of this article, Kit was spotted in New York 12 hours ago. So no he is not in Belfast right now.
Well Kit was in NY with Rose before he went to Milan, so it could be from last week.
Kit just got back to Belfast. This must be an older photo.
Joey,
No, I don’t believe Tyrion conspired with Cersei or will betray Daenerys either. People went there simply out of trying to determine what his look meant on the ship. I think it was pretty much what Peter said, which was that he may fear how a J&D relationship could effect her goal to rule. He despises his sister and doesn’t believe she is suitable to reign nor wants to for the right reasons. There isn’t a ‘deal’ that Tyrion would take from her to turn him from Daenerys. The only thing remotely possible would have been a threat against Jaime but now he’s on his way to aid Daenerys and Jon as well.
Well, Jon’s honesty will definitely cause him trouble, before it’s all done: all those talks about Ned’s death can’t be anything else but foreshadowing Cersei making use of Jon’s committment to his honor.
As for the crypts, we must see Jon going there after he learns the truth about his parentage nad during the alleged siege of Winterfell they look to be the right place to shelter non-combatants (the NK has a dragon, so event with some anti-dragon defence in place the underground looks like a safer place).
And regarding the NW, I hope that Edd will be wise enough to retreat to Winterfell as soon as he learns that the Wall has been breached. There’s no more point in holding CB. The NK may send their one of his leutenants with a squad of wights and add the garrison to his dead army without much effort. So, if the remains of the NW are to go, they better go in some meaningful way. It’s not too much to ask for, is it?
I agree that it’s unlikely the Army of the Dead will go for Castle Black. It’s way out of the way between Eastwatch and Winterfell. Unless of course they divide their forces. Maybe the NK and his ice dragon will go for Castle Black while his army marches forward for Winterfell.
I should surely hope they do something about the Winterfell crypts. Like burn them…
The Starks could be attacked from the crypts if they’re unlucky. A thousand years worth of dead Starks attacking the living ones… I don’t want to see that. But it can happen.
Silvia Van de Polder,
I wonder if Rickon will be able to zig-zag as a wight… 🙂
Ginevra,
I don’t think we will see all that. It will be only discussing Lyanna and maybe also hiding in the crypts.
Joey,
i agree for Tyrion ..but for Varys somehow ..i dont trust em him..I know that he isnt such a backstabber like Littlefinger was ..but remember that Littlefinger and he created and orchestrated this game of thrones for to see their personal offers being completed and themselves to sitting on the IT..So Varys isnt 100% loyal.
Ginevra,
I started a Post that said, “The Night King and his Army will Not Get Past Winterfell because Sansa will not Let Them.”. This is Exactly why I Posted it. The Crepes of Winterfell has been a Fixture in this Saga from the Start, so if the Army just Runs over Winterfell, the Whole Crepes Thing will be Anticlimactic.
Grail King,
”’Well maybe, but I see Cersei doing the main manipulating to Tyrion, not Varys, though he has his own plans.”’….Yes i can see this…Cercei plays so theatrical with her pregnancy ..For a while i had think that her pregnancy was fake ..and that she tried to create a fake pregnancy for to have Jaime on her own hand and for to make Tyrion to switch sides ..Jaime loved his kids with her and she knows that very well..and Tyrion loved his nephews and his niece as his own childrens..But now i think Cercei is really pregnant and that she live for most of S8..until get killed by Jaime [Valonquar/AA]or by NK and reanimated as his NQ with her unborn child being sacrificed.
Artemisia,
Varys has established that he has no interest in the Iron Throne. Yes, he nodded towards it in one scene with Littlefinger after Littlefinger asked him what he wanted, but I took that as a nod to the fact that he wants to help but a worthy King/Queen on the throne and not himself.
You never know what D&D will pull out of their sleeve, but I personally think it’s well established at this point that Varys is not going to turn “to the dark side”, if you will.
I could be wrong of course, but I don’t think the NK is interested in marriage proposals.
I don’t know. For the last two seasons, at least, it seems as if all that wine finally caught up with Tyrion’s brain cells. Perhaps an encounter with Jaime could set him straight – if that’s going even to happen. We don’t actually know where Jaime is headed.
D’oh!
two theories that make my eyes jump out of the window: anyone heading to Castle Black and dead Starks rising.
no one will head to Castle Black. the WW won’t because those 50 or so men there are no threat to them. Beric and Tormund won’t because it is more important to get the word to and help defending Winterfell. ravens can be sent to CB then.
and dead Starks? really? when the effing eff did the show just build up the possibility of this? was it with “the lone wolf dies but the carcass will rise” or with “there must always be dead Starks at Winterfell”?
I think it was “what is dead may never die” actually 😉 WHo knew that the Ironborn had it right this whole time!
Dark Sister,
Yeah it’s mostly like from before he arrived in Belfast.
I agree ..but im wonder if he really said that because he believed it in real or something is hidden behind his words..Also what we know about his past?[.expect of that he had been abducted by sorcerer who chopped of his d*£? and set it to the fire and Varys sow visions]What we know about those visions?
Yeah..Even and a entire NK can be worry to marry or fall in love with this crazy bitch ..without she to split his throat on his sleep
Mr Derp,
It’s hard to tell anything about Varys. The very least, it has been established that he’s addicted to manipulations and plotting. He may not be interested to sit on the IT himself, but he’s definitely willing to have the one who sits on it as his puppet. He’s like a lion who tasted manflesh – he said that himself in 703. So, his addiction may cause trouble and though I don’t see him betraying Dany and/or Jon to Cersei, I can fully see him (and Tyrion) doing something that will drive a wedge between Dany and Jon or Sansa and all the lords in Jon’s camp. Varys is adamant that he knows what is good for the people, but in reality he just experiments with pulling strings.
Chicken Generated Image,
Tormund and Beric, if alive, are still somewhere near the top of The Wall. I don’t know how far Eastwatch is from Castle Black, but it might be easier and safer from there to go to Castle Black instead of going straight to Winterfell. And get horses and send ravens from Castle Black. On foot they might not make it to Winterfell with all the wights and white walkers running around and a dragon flying above.
So, so far the season seems to be going the most logical way. First, some character/relationship development in Winterfell, then a battle there (in Sapochnik’s E3). Then everyone moves South, there is another round of character/relationship development, and another battle (E5). Finally, the DnD denouement.
Chilli,
My thought exactly: Tormund and Beric need horses and a good road, if they hope to reach Winterfell before the NK does. Therefore, going to Castle Black seems like the most logical option for them. Moreover, we kind of need to revisit Castle Black one last time and it doesn’t look like we are going to have any other option for that. So, Tormund and Beric arriving and then everyone leaving to Winterfell looks very plausible. But IMO it’s going to be a very short scene.
Artemisia,
What? Varys didn’t create the “game of thrones” he’s always said that he serves the realm. He thought that Dany would be the best bet for the realm but seeing her actually lead and do the things she does has made him doubt her and doubt that she’s the best option for the realm. Hell if Varys finds out that Jon is the “rightful” heir Varys might support him.
Artemisia,
“Ed will die for sure”
Naah, the show’s very last scene will be someone addressing Ed as, “your grace”
He’ll look around in confusion, and then start saying, “oh f….”
Sue the Fury,
I guess this means Kit will not be attending this sundays SAG awards
Sure that’s what he says but his track record doesn’t quite hold up with his words. Let’s not forget that he initially supported Viserys, and there’s no way he didn’t know what Viserys was like due to the fact that Viserys was living with his close friend Illyrio. He and Illyrio were also the ones who tried to get the Dothraki to come over to Westeros and start a war. Sorry but this doesn’t sound like someone who has the realm’s best interests in mind.
So yeah, perhaps he’s disillusioned with Dany as he sees she’s not that easy to influence. And I’m afraid it won’t get any better for him if he were to support Jon as I think Jon is even harder to influence.
I just don’t see that happening. I mean, sure something similar was done pretty neatly in Bedknobs and Broomsticks , but I just don’t see it working here. Some supernatural element or another tied to the crypts may come into play, but I don’t think it will be anything as on the nose as stone kings and stone direwolves taking up arms directly.
Arya vs. Night King confirmed! *
Stick him with the pointy end of that fancy VS dagger!
* [Just kidding.]
Hahahaha! Sansa won’t let them. What if they ask ever so nicely?
I wouldn’t worry about the Crepes of Winterfell – the Pancakes of King’s Landing are much deadlier.
There is zero reason for the NK and friends to hit Castle Black when they’ve already breached the wall. It’d be nothing but a detour for no reason.
Varys has had so many opportunities to screw just about everyone over by now, but he hasn’t, which is mainly why I don’t think he has a hidden agenda.
For example, why help Tyrion escape KL?
Why would Varys put his own neck on the line to do that? What does he have to gain?
There’s probably a bunch of other examples, but I’m at work and don’t have time to think of them. Perhaps later tonight.
Pigeon,
Well, the article states that the Night’s Watch extras are doing stunt preparation, so something is probably going to happen between them and the Army of the Dead.
The fact is that the Night’s Watch is dedicated to defending the Seven Kingdoms. It makes sense that the Night King would want to wipe them out, especially if he’s unaware of just how undermanned they currently are. What sort of military leader would leave an army of unknown strength at his army’s rear?
I would imagine that the Night King will set about gradually scouring The North of all the living, like they gradually scoured the lands beyond The Wall.
Shouldn’t we expect the Night’s Watch to ride out and meet the invaders anyway? Otherwise they’re not upholding their oath.
Chicken Generated Image,
In Lord of the Ring Return of the King Aeragon uses the dead kings to fight in his army. We know G.O.T. References Lord of Rings so maybe they do come to life to fight the W.W
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I didn’t say the NW wouldn’t meet them. I just said that I don’t think it’s necessary for NK and gang to go to the Wall for it to happen.
Hahaha….I was considering joining Reddit and was trying to come up with a username.
Crepes of Winterfell might do!
Mr Derp,
I’m not sure if this was explicitly stated in the show, but I remember in the books that Varys told Tyrion that Jamie “forced” Varys to help Tyrion escape King’s Landing (I believe Varys wanted to help Tyrion anyway, but just didn’t want to risk his life). It implied or maybe even directly said that Jamie threatened to kill Varys if he didn’t help, giving Varys virtually no choice.
That being said, I do believe that Varys has good intentions and wants the best for the realm, which helping Tyrion escape would certainly do. I just believe if the choice was risking his life and possibly dying to help the realm and playing it safe and keeping himself alive, he’ll probably choose the latter. Not that you were arguing the opposite or anything.
Of course, that begs the big question of “just what the heck does the NK want anyway?” If he wants to literally kill every living human being and convert them to wights, I guess he’s send at least some force after every concentration of population. Of course, Castle Black and Moletown don’t seem to have a huge population anymore, but probably more than most places in that vicinity.
Bran and Sam discussing Ned’s promise to Lyanna before the horn blows to announce the arrival of Jon and Dany.
I’m about 70% certain.
Although I’ve enjoyed all the Bran WF scenes in S7, I’m surprised we haven’t had a scene with Bran in the WF crypts yet. Totally expecting it, with stunning results. Maybe Bran will figure out (with Sam’s assistance) some secrets behind the Long Night…like discovering the NK’s resurrection secret or a way to reverse the spell. In any case, I agree with Ginevra that there is a reason for the “Stark in Winterfell” mandate.
Will the past and present become intertwined (a la “The Door”) or will the past serve as a learning mechanism for the survival of the present? Exciting stuff.
Interesting that you brought that up as a counterpoint. Even LotR had an “army of the dead” that was influenced to help the living. Yeah, there could be an overlap but I hope they expand the concept, either passively (learning) or actively (spell reversion/WW mindmeld). 🙂
Sue the Fury,
Calling it…Jon/Arya.
Mr Derp,
I have a strong feeling that Varys has something to do with the demise of the Starks which provoked Robert’s rebellion. In 705 he talked about how he watched the Mad King burn the traitors he found and in 702-703 we were reminded that the Mad King burned the Starks (Jon’s grandfather and uncle). In 707 we were told that “Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie.” So, what if the lie about Rhaegar kifnapping Lyanna wasn’t the only one? What if the Starks (and the Baratheons) were planning rebellion even before that happened and Varys found out about that? He might have seen uncovering the plot as something done for the good of the realm, though the reality turned out to me much more comlicated. And his plans regarding the Targarian restauration also seem quite disputable: Robert was not the best king but he was wise enough to choose good people as his Hands, so there should be more to Varys than it meets the eye or at least he should be hinding one or two dark secrets. One way or another, he is too addicted to manipulations to hold in Dany’s team for long and I’m affraid the same might be true for Tyrion, unless he changes.
A girl has no name,
It’s so funny that you mention that because I compared the Dead Men of Dunharrow with the Golden Company in a previous post. I just found more similarities and parallels between those two armies than with the White Walkers. I mean, in LOTR, the Dead Men of Dunharrow follow the true king, Aragorn, in order to be at peace; and with the Golden Company they are historically an army of knights from Westeros who seek to return home. But that’s just one of many comparisons we can find between ASOIAF and LOTR.
Jaehaerys,
Yea, I think the conversation between Varys and Dany in “Stormborn” summarizes exactly what motivates Varys. He doesn’t serve one particular person. He serves the realm and supports the best candidate to make Westeros, gulp, great again.
Ginevra,
If the Kings will be reanimated they will fight for the WW. I think that around episode 3 the NK attack winterfell, our heroes need to escape through the crypts of winterfell (In 2×10 Measter Lewin made a remark that that’s the only way to escape Winterfell, but that it’s not easy). My prediction is that when they escape the Kings rise and they need to “kill” their own family (the dead) to escape. the only reason the dead can come to life is something is making them with magic, the only person with that kind of magic is the NK.
About the wall: I think episode 1 begins with a small battle at the house of Umber. As far as I remember their home is almost next to Eastwatch. Then the NK will turn west destroying the wall and castles (off-screen) until the end he arives at Castle black. Episode 1 ends with the end of the Night’s Watch. The only question is, will there be survivors.
I’m a “pre-books” show watcher. Over the past few years, book readers have suggested that relics described in the books – but never really harped on [pun intended] in the TV adaptation -are hidden in the WF crypts. (The speculation was that some of these objects would be found stashed in Lyanna’s tomb and prove Jon’s parentage, but I gather that’ll be unnecessary on the show in light of Bran’s wedding video and Sam’s discovery of the Septon’s diary.)
To my recollection, there were theories that hidden in the WF crypts are:
1. Torrhen’s crown;
2. Rhaegar’s harp;
3. Wedding shroud;
4. Targ Dragon egg(s);
5. Jimmy Hoffa’s body;
6. Robb’s Will;
7. Ghosts of Kings of Winter;
8. Ned’s disembodied spirit;
9. Network of underground tunnels and thoroughfares;
10. Some kind of volcanic heat source.
Other than the tombs of Ned and Lyanna themselves and the candlelit corridor(s), has the show depicted or alluded to any of these relics or subterranean geography of the crypts? If not, then wouldn’t scenes in the crypt likely be Jon “talking” to hos mom’s remains, or the Stark kids communing with Ned’s spirit?
PS Any tinfoil theories out there to explain why Bran’s rapid-fire slide show included a close-up image(s) of Ned’s eye/Ned honing Ice? Also…was there a gif in the slide show of a flock of ravens flying through the crypt’s corridor? If so, why?
kevin1989,
But we still don’t know what real magic Bran has.
My bet is that we’ll have a scene with Jon and Arya in the crypts after an emotional reunion. Sounds like a witness to Ned’s death needs to be in that scene and Sophie is in Paris (besides another scene there with Arya/Sophie would be too much).
The horn sounding could well be the NKs army, or a scouting party or even a lone wight- as the WWs will have covered some ground by the time Jon reaches WF.
And I agree we shouldn’t discount the possibility that the Kings of Winter will rise- and not necessarily on the side of the living.
The books foreshadowed that their iron swords kept them at rest (similar to the fact that the Others hate iron), and two or three of those swords were taken by Hodor and Osha.
If the geothermal energy can be made to rise to the surface, it would be hot enough to incinerate WWs and wights. That would thin the hordes of the Dead.
Apollo,
“And I agree we shouldn’t discount the possibility that the Kings of Winter will rise- and not necessarily on the side of the living.
The books foreshadowed that their iron swords kept them at rest (similar to the fact that the Others hate iron)…”
___________
That’s an example of the kind of thing I was (attempting to) illustrate in my 6:22 pm Comment above: Foreshadowings related to mythologies in the books that never made it into the TV adaptation. At least I don’t think they did…
Jaime’s arrival?
Yes, it’s most probably them.
https://twitter.com/scmfckflowerboy/status/954485362419814400
Interesting… Sounds like the scientific process of convection – heat transfer from circulating fluids including molten rock – and also used for cooking in convection ovens.
Now, let’s see, who do we know who would have the technical knowledge and experience to harness the geothermal energy in WF’s heating system so it roasts wights like a massive convection oven?
👨🏼🍳
Ten Bears,
Agreed. But the post poses the question of Winterfell’s crypt being included in the fight against the Night King.. My answer is yes 😉
Hi, Hodor’s Bastard and Pigeon!
So I wanted to share the book quotes that foreshadow the animation of the stone kings, now that I’ve had time to find them – or where I quoted them previously.
Those longswords could be useful, too.
Robb and Jon lure Arya, Bran, and Sansa into the crypts to scare the piss out of them, and Robb says:
Bran and Rickon share a portentous dream of their father in the Winterfell crypts just before news of Ned’s death reaches Winterfell.
Ned describes a crypts dream, as well.
Half a dozen or so times, George mentions a recurring dream of Jon’s: He’s running through Winterfell, desperately searching for someone but finding no one, not even the ravens. Heading to the crypts, then, he becomes deathly afraid.
Winter is here. Crepes are coming!
We have all been wondering when the Cranogman who saved Ned at the tower of J will appear. The Cranogmen have skills to move terrain and buildings, perhaps even do what the CotF did to raise the waters and sever the continent of Westeros. Mayhaps they can work lava.
The other hot fire possibility is that all Kings Landing is a wildfire conflagration waiting to happen.
Apollo,
I’m cool with that!
WF Crypts = lots of mystery. Gotta mean something.
Two thing about the crypts that’ve always puzzled/intrigued me – one from the show (and possibly the books too?), the other from the books:
1. When the Boltons took over WF, I would’ve thought they’d “clean out” the crypts and get rid of all remnants of the Starks. With the way the Boltons flay the living, I didn’t sense they’d be too concerned about desecrating the dead.
Yet, when Sansa went down to the crypts with LF right before he abandoned her, the tombs were undisturbed – and well maintained.
And if I were Roose & family, I’d feel weird about living atop a cemetary containing generations of the family whose descendants I’d just betrayed and killed.
Maybe I’m being trivial….
2. I’ve read (second-hand) descriptions of the crypts as having many levels, some of which have collapsed or are unaccessible. I wonder what’s in them and why they were never repaired.
3. Oh wait. One last question. The crypts are supposed to be for lords of WF or something, but Ned made an exception for Lyanna. Is there more to that decision than just love and grief for his sister? (I think in S1 Ned told Robert she wanted to be buried there?)
And since Jon is a Targaryen, it’s possible he may be having Dragon Dreams – dreams that have a tendency to come true. Dany has several of those.
Ginevra,
“He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. –ASoS, p. 868”
______
Thanks for that! You may have just helped answer my question in the “PS” of my 6:22 pm comment:
“PS Any tinfoil theories out there to explain why Bran’s rapid-fire slide show included a close-up image(s) of Ned’s eye/Ned honing Ice? Also…was there a gif in the slide show of a flock of ravens flying through the crypt’s corridor? If so, why?”
The Cranogman who saved Ned at the ToJ. Cranogmen can move water, terrain and dwellings, why not liquid silicon dioxide (lava) ?
Man it’s some batshit crazy theories being posted on here. And I thought some of my fanfic was out there… It’s like some people have been watching a different show altogether. I can’t even link some of these theories to the novels…
Since we’re diving straight off into the deep end, I’ll say that I think the meeting in the Winterfell crypts is Jon finding the greatsword Dawn in his mother Lyanna’s crypt. And when he wields it, it will glow red and the darkness will flee from him… Not as out there as others but can I still get an honorary tinfoil hat?
I should have kept reading. I see Ten and a couple others came with some more plausible theories. I do miss discussing some of the book theories. Especially some about the crypts. There are some intriguing book options there that I don’t think the show will entertain.
It feels like we’re full speed ahead to the ending and the time for nuance has passed. I’m still holding out hope of Jon wielding Dawn and wearing Valyrian steel armor going one on one vs the Night King. Arya, will ultimately get the finish though with the Valyrian steel dagger. My fevered “Dream of Spring”…
Generations of Starks have been buried there, both men and women. The distinction between Lyanna and other women of House Stark is that she gets a statue. Traditionally, while all Starks are buried there, it is only the ruling King in the North or Lord of Winterfell that gets a statue. Ned made exceptions for his brother and sister.
I think the main motivation behind Ned’s decision is grief, though perhaps it was also his acknowledgement that she was a princess (as wife of Prince Rhaegar?).
Ginevra,
It would be pretty darn cool if something fantastic happened in the Crepes. I really don’t know if it will, as although it seems likely (?) in the books, there hasn’t been quite as much emphasis in the show. I’d love even an important discovery or interaction between living characters to happen at least! Sounds like something will be going down.
I always liked those creepy paintings where the person’s eyes would follow you wherever you stood. Now I’m picturing Weeping (Stark) Angels!
That’s a fair point! All that comes to mind is that maybe they just got off on literally walking over those who they ‘defeated’ – kind of a ‘neener neener’ to the Starks after the fact. Heck, I wouldn’t have been surprised if Ramsay had done some ‘alterations’ to the statues and shown it off to Sansa just to be mean.
Stark skeletons rising from the crypts? Ridiculous. I could be wrong but gods I hope not. And please, for the love of it all, stop saying..”well, in the books…..”. I get it. You’re desperate, I’m desperate, we’re all desperate for the end…to know. Despite the fact that we all know that D&D supposedly know the end from GRRM, GRRM still hasn’t technically written that ending yet.
That this has gotten the tread that it has is embarrassing, actually.
Ten Bears,
HAHAHA
Ginevra,
Thanks for coming up with all of those – I remembered talk about it but seeing them all put together certainly makes the argument that something like that may happen (Wimsey’s hung gun and all that)
Ridiculous? Perhaps…but if the living don’t try it, the NK sure will. The bodies in the crypts were never burned. I don’t think there is an expiration date on the NK’s ability to raise the dead.
Seems a bit dismissive given that resurrections and questionable deaths are everywhere in this tale. What do you think Bran/Sam will learn about the Long Night and the NK’s capabilities in the WF’s crypts? A key discovery awaits, imho. 🙂
Erica,
Let people have their little musings, it certainly is no worse than many other ideas out there. No one seems to be acting desperately about it or saying it better happen or they’re throwing a tantrum. It’s all good. We have at least a year to ruminate over what might happen in 6 episodes, it’s fun. 🙂
Mr Derp:
And of course, one must ask Why? Varys is not Westerosi; he’s from Essos. Why is he seemingly so dedicated to the cause of gaining (indirect) power in Westeros “for the good of the realm”? Methinks it has much to do with what he heard in the flames. If we don’t see a Red Priestess or two in S8, even fleetingly, I shall be exceedingly vexed!
Aegon the Icedragon,
If I had the power to do so, I would most definitely bestow an honorary tinfoil hat on you.
I’ve been wondering about the Daynes and Dawn for a few years now.
Aegon the Icedragon,
Will Sandor Clegane get Heartsbane on loan, especially since he’s the one who showed Arya where the heart is? We know Sam can wield a dagger, but I think a sword might be beyond his skill level. 😉
Sean C.,
Hmm. That’s a long holiday break they’ve been taking . I wonder why so much time between filming scenes this season?
that will be too literal.Still i dont think Lightbringer and the Ice Black Valyrian Armor are literal things..Lightbringer is Jon himself with Rhaegar AA and Lyanna Nissa Nissa or with Danny AA and her Viserion Nissa Nissa…The VS armor is Drogon and his black scales ..Jon may ride him when Danny is prego and allow him to do it for to defeat NK and Viserion.
Alba Stark,
Ned made exceptions for his brother and sister.
Could this be why the stone kings are angry? Would they be so petty, lol?
Look..i dont say Varys is a traitor for sure..But he and Littlefinger created that Game ..Littlefinger lied about Lyannas abduction by Rhaegar and Varys whispered to the MK about Starks are his enemies..Also i dont he support Danny or either will support Jon..Danny do things herself and Jon is little bit hotheaded and emotional for king..He supports Tyrion more..remember in S3 when he said to Shae the whore that Tyrion is the man who can do the best for the realm if he be king..remember?
lol..but still i think he will die in the 1st episode..and his death will be sudden and sad
he supports Tyrion for the realm ..not Danny and will not support Jon too
When Benjen left Bran and Meera, he said that the NK was going to make it to the realms of men, but that Bran would be waiting for him. I think Bran might figure out how to raise the dead Starks to have his own army of the dead. I also think its possible that Jon Snow’s 7th stab wound in the heart, only 6 people stabbed him, might be a shard of dragonglass, too, if Jon did not warg into Ghost when he was killed. Pass the tinfoil.
As for the Night Watch, they don’t have to fight at Castle Black, and more probable that now the wall has been breached, they would go south to fight the army of the dead somewhere on their way or at Winterfell.
It also cannot be a coincidence that Dolorous Edd is the 999th Lord Commander of the Watch. I suspect there must be a 1000th Lord Commander before the Watch can end with the final defeat of the With Walkers. Since in these circumstances the Lord Commander will need a Valyrian steel blade, there are currently only five candidates for the post. It seems to me most probable is Jamie Lannister, less likely but possible are Sam (still technically a Watchmen), Brienne (first Lady Commander…), and most longshot is Arya (the first Lord Commander was a Stark, so perhaps the last one will be as well). The fifth blade is Jon’s but his returning to the post would make little sense…
Another possible Lord Commander, who at present does not have a Valyrian blade is Jorah Mormont, to complete his redemption. Perhaps a blade will turn up or be given to him.
Wolfish,
I would imagine so.
Jon, Jaime, Brienne and The Hound wielding the Valyrian steel makes sense. The Hound even said, “I always wanted some Valyrian steel” when he fought Brienne.
I’m sure they could get a heartwarming, or even comedic, scene out of Sam bestowing Heartsbane on him.
No! The Old Kings will not rise. In no case! 🙂
The mystery of the cryptes is something else -because there is a mystery anyway. I think it’s a secret about WW from the past…but what? This will help for the destruction of NK and WW. Sam and Bran will find this…
Sam and Bran, also, are the persons in the cryptes in E01. And this time…Jon/Dany are arriving to WF with all the army. And dragons. 🙂
Wolfish,
I would love that, but maybe it will make more sense if Jorah gets it. Sam knows him after all.
Wolfish,
I most definitely can see the Hound wielding Heartsbane. He’s one of the few guys left that could wield a greatsword of that size. And thanks for the honorary hat. 😂
Artemisia,
I was referring more to what would hopefully happen in the books. The show has decided not to delve into too much of the crypt theories whereas they really are a connecting link between Ned, Jon, Bran, & Lyanna.
Joey,
I agree. I do not think Tyrion conspired with Cersei to help her. If he did conspire with Cersei I think its a trick to ultimately help Jon and dany. If any one is betraying dany, its Varys. Someone had to tell Cersei of Dany’s first battle plans. When the unsullied went to Casterly rock and there were hardly any troops there. Then the unsullied ships were attacked by Euron. How did they know that they would be there? Some one is spying on them at Dragon Stone. I think it may ultimately be Varys. I think he may have a master plan similar to Little fingers.
Artemisia
Erica,
Hmmmm. You do realise we’re watching a show where the villain raises armies of the dead, where we’ve seen the dead rise from the ground and this thread is discussing a crypt…full of the dead? 🧐
actually, i’d even love them to be on the top of the wall and having no other way than to take the boring 150 miles to Castle Black. without food or shelter. nice slow death that.
just, they don’t know if CB still exists. what if the NK has sent another army there so the dead can break through at two points?
if they follow the NK on his path they can watch what his army is doing on the way and report that in WF. and horses should be available south of the wall.
the only fact i see effing with my point is the lack of stairs at Eastwatch after the NK’s attack. so let’s meet in the middle and say they have to make it to the next unmanned fortress on top of the wall and then climb down something that once used to be stairs. we all love to see Tormund climb, don’t we?
but CB? no way!
Hmmmm. Nope. Hadn’t noticed.
I hope I don’t notice it in S8, either.
Pigeon,
Pigeon: it’s the crypt of Winterfell, not crepes.
One is an underground tomb, another french pancake that we eat.
oh, this mentioning of actors from LOTR was just my way of saying “no, Sean Bean will not be back! he didn’t come back as Boromir, he won’t come back as Ned Stark.”
what would be the use of Zombie Starks? how many would they be, in wich way would they be of help in a fight that will most likely take place on the levels numbers against numbers and hero against opponent?
although fantasy has become more important in the storyline by now, GoT still has an admirable history of being a series about power games and related stuff. reanimating characters who tragically failed in this game like Ned or Robb would somewhat fuck the serie’s legacy.
i dont say..but yeah the show takes some things more metaphorical..In the books maybe be a Lightbringer[Dawn] and a Valyrian Steal Armor[that who has Euron]..As for the Crypts i think will play on the show next season ..Jon there will find the truth about his parentage by Bran and that will be very dramatic as well..
i agree..Varys has also some backstabbing skills ..He can easy manipulate you being your friend ..but somehow also betray you..As he does with Tyrion now.
Grail King,
It’s a light jest from LTCHEEL ‘s post, who wrote Crepes instead of Crypts. Now excuse me, all this talk of food is making me hungry. I think I’ll cook up some crypts.
Ten Bears
I have a theory about that. Perhaps there is something written on Lyanna’s gravestone that would give away that she married a Targaryen. And in order to diguise that Ned ordered statues for all the then current Starks.
Artemisia,
You might be right about Beric and Tormund heading along the top of the wall to warn the brothers, I mean, they’re the NW now and have a duty to warn and to gather the remaining brothers and follow the NK army south…that’s if they are heading south. Furthermore, I don’t think there’s a way down off the wall until they get to Castle Black.
They can’t kill Tormund now, can they? He’s the only speaking representative for the Free Folk. If he dies, then the Free Folk virtually disappear from the story. Beric, I’m less certain of. He does have that distinction of being the only other person to have been resurrected, and has an understanding of the nature of death – which will come in handy, I suppose. I think he does survive a little longer. As for the wall collapse, it looked like they managed to jump clear of it.
Tormund will be frantic to get word to Jon. I suppose they could send a raven once he gets to Castle Black. But, can a raven out-fly a dragon?! Is there a network of sentries between the wall and Winterfell that can blow their horns three times ’till it’s within earshot of Winterfell? They don’t know that Jon has Bran the seer.
Yes! Heartsbane for the Hound would be appropriate, though Jorah might get first dibs from his new bff Samwell Tarly, M.D. As long as Beric teaches Sandor the flaming sword trick, Heartsbane would work. And I just love the way you linked Heartsbane to “where the heart is.”
I had been speculating [🤖👨🚀 Tinfoil Alert] that Sandor would wind up with Oathkeeper, and ignite the blood he left on its blade in S4e10. (I had another reason for this far-fetched theory that Sandor should wield Ice 2.0A, but I’d have to go down a series of tinfoil-lined rabbit holes with multiple dialogue excerpts – and a reference to an old Star Trek episode – to explain why. Since we’ve still got over a year to go, I’ll try to map out the rabbit holes some other time.)
Pass the tinfoil back to me when you’re done. (“Don’t bogart that tinfoil, my friend…”)
Anyway, I don’t recall the show alluding (enough) to the dead Starks/Kings of Winter in the WF crypts for justify introducing them as an undead army in S8. The showrunners could have and should have “hung that gun” at some point in the first 67 episodes if they were going to “fire” it in sometime in the last 6 episodes. Unless I missed some expositions or info dumps along the way, which is easy to do.
However, I would not want to see Bran raise “his own army of the dead” mainly because I fear it would be replay of the cheesy green CGI undead army recruited by Aragorn in Lord of the Rings.
Dark Sister,
Trendy San Francisco cafe re-named “Crepes of Winterfell” opening in 5, 4, 3…..
Anon,
Somebody we know and care about has to get wightened in S8, right? I just hope it’s not Tormund or Beric.
It’s one of those autocorrect moments that made something better…when I first saw it, lovely warm crepes with a sprinkling of snowy icing sugar and red berries representing the Weirwood trees came to mind. Hot Pie needs to jump on this!
Yep, this is definitely something I see happening, sadly. We’ve already had a taster of it with Karsi and Viserion, but I think at some point in season eight we will see a beloved recurring human character turned into a wight.
I hope it isn’t Tormund or Beric either, but currently they and Edd are the three recurring human characters in closest proximity to the Night King and his army. And I definitely don’t want that happening to Edd!
I have a list of things I expect to happen in season eight and unfortunately someone we love being wighted is one of them 🙁
Ten Bears,
GoT and breakfast foods – I’d definitely visit! 😂
Pigeon, that sounds delicious and didn’t the actor who played Hot Pie capitalize on his character and send out direwolf biscuits in London via Deliveroo? Here’s hoping for #CrepesofWinterfell2018
Ten Bears,
Somebody? I imagine several characters will… the cast is too concentrated in the north now, time to thin them out. 😵
Bingo!
You (also) just gave the correct answer to the question I posed last night at 8:17 pm (reproduced below) in my exchange with Marlana about using WF geothermal energy like a massive convection oven to incinerate WWs wights. (I thought the 👨🏼🍳 emoji would be a clue…)
——————–
1/19/18 8:17 pm, TB reply to Marlana
“Interesting… Sounds like the scientific process of convection – heat transfer from circulating fluids including molten rock – and also used for cooking in convection ovens.
Now, let’s see, who do we know who would have the technical knowledge and experience to harness the geothermal energy in WF’s heating system so it roasts wights like a massive convection oven?
👨🏼🍳”
——————
1/19 7:39 pm, Marlana wrote (replying to TB)
TB: “there were theories that hidden in the WF crypts are: form of volcanic heat source.”
Marlana: If the geothermal energy can be made to rise to the surface, it would be hot enough to incinerate WWs and wights. That would thin the hordes of the Dead.
Apollo,
Yeah, I know. That’s why I put “Somebody” in italics, i.e., at least one known character will be wightened. So far, other than Karsi, whom we knew for half an episode, and maybe that NW guy (if he was shown briefly before his blue-eyed body attacked LC Mormont), we haven’t seen anyone we know get turned into a wight, right?
Kinda strange: transforming human characters into zombies is usually standard fare for a movie, TV show or music video featuring the undead, e.g., “From Dusk til Dawn”, and Michael Jackson’s “Thriller.”
I was surprised we didn’t see any human-to-wight characters last season. (Undead dragons don’t count.)
I was so hoping Littlefinger would be killed using The Full Meryn (poked full of holes), and then reanimated as a wight so he could be killed again Pulp Fiction-style, with a blowtorch and a pair of pliers.
Pre-Season 8 Contest suggestion? Name the first character who gets turned into a wight.
In the past, a poster made the point that Stark bodies entombed in stone in the crypts never touched the earth, and thus did not give up their knowledge to the weirnet data storage.
What knowledge was the Stark kings concealing from the CotF?
Knowledge that can save humanity from the WWs and CotF?
Does being encased in stone allow the Stark bodies to be resurrected and not subject to the WWs?
It seems pretty implausible that this will happen! There would have been some setup for that on the show or at least in the books. However, not even the old legends tell of anything like this happening.
Martin has long-claimed that he’s avoiding classic fantasy tropes: and this would definitely be one of them. If there is anything in the crypts, then it is going to be more mundane and practical: e.g., ways out of Winterfell when all else is lost or something like that.
Ned would not have allowed something like that where someone could see it. And he extra-certainly would not have allowed Robert near it if that had been the case. Besides, the show already has provided us with this information: why provide it twice?
There never has been anything suggesting that anyone buried in the ground automatically gets uploaded into the weirnet. The closest thing that we have in the books is that events near weirwood trees are recorded.
Technically there is at least one body in the crypts that was burned: Rickard Stark. Can’t remember if Brandon was burned for good measure after he died.
Again, I think that far more mundane explanations should be preferred for “have Starks at Winterfell.” For one thing, nothing changed when there were no Starks there, and everything that did change (such as the White Walkers returning, the Wall coming down, the Targaryens coming and going, etc.) all happened while Starks were at Winterfell. So, Winterfell with Starks allows calamities to happen, but Winterfells without Starks coincides with none.
If anything, then I think that the Crypts might provide something for Bran to look back and see why the Walkers left and why they have returned. (Chances are really good that these two questions share 75+% of the same answer.)
I think that storytelling structure is a key here. Bran already seen that the culmination of Robert’s Rebellion was not what people thought. He’s already seen that the cause of Robert’s Rebellion was not what people thought. Indeed, the key point of emphasis was: Robert’s Rebellion was fought on an untruth. So, why bother with that if Bran is not going to apply these lessons to the current battle?
At this point, I think that the simplest explanation is that Robert’s Rebellion is a variant on the “play within a play” foreshadowing, albeit with one big difference: because the RR “play” was inspired loosely by reality, Bran has reason to look at it as such, whereas nobody in Hamlet or Midsummer Night’s Dream had cause to do so. And that means that we should be looking at Shakespeare, not Tolkien! 😀
Burned? No, but most of them would have long since turned to mostly dust.
If this can happen, then we’ll get something like it early in the season. That is, we’ll see the NK or some other Walker stop at a graveyard and raise the corpses out of it. Basically, we need a polar bear for the crypt’s Viserion.
Ginevra,
If Stone Ned is rising from the crypt, does that mean Sean Bean will come back for season 8?
I would add that I realize that I’m being Joe Buzzkill again! However, it seems that we’ve been down this road before. After all, how many people here were hoping/convinced that the Old Gods would be the ones to resurrect Jon, or that Jon would come back as Azor Ahai? How many people were hoping/convinced that all of the North would prove to have been long preparing for the White Walkers, or that Northerners were universally more keen to fight Boltons than Wildlings? How many people were hoping/convinced that Sam would find deep magic at the Citadel that would provide the bane for the Walkers?
So far, the show has a pretty consistent track-record on these sorts of things. One, the big moments are setup in advance if there is going to be anything unorthodox in the plot (e.g., gods reviving dead people.) Two, a lot of the big moments use the same sort of plot devices and/or human reactions (e.g., Umbers allying with Boltons against Wildlings or Sam finding marriage licenses) that we would see in tales with no dragons or magic. Some of the biggest “magic” that we’ve seen has delivered analogs of what we’d see in the real-world: e.g., Bran essentially having a ton of information because of “hacking” into a giant database!
We’ve had 7 years of storytelling to set us up for the type of storytelling that B&W&M deliver: and that involves either hanging guns and then firing them, or taking the things that are so “common place” as to be always hung guns and then firing those. Why would we expect them to change now?
Pigeon,
It did make me hungry all night, keep thinking of strawberry crepes with bananas and whipped creme.
Didn’t meant to ruin the fun.
Ten Bears,
I reckon Hodor is a definite. I also think we’ll see Tormund, Edd and the NW go blue eyes as they’re fairly exposed at this point and we no longer need a “voice of the common folk”, as they were wiped out at EBTS.
I also think we’ll have a central/beloved character die, turn and attack (even kill) another. After all, they keep saying S8 is gonna f#ck with our minds. 😱
Not at all, you kept it going! 😉 Plus not all parts of the world call them the same, so if someone didn’t know, you provided a new factoid. 😊 Maple syrup, anyone?
The CotF state that when an entity dies, its memories go into the non-animal world such as rocks, trees, earth. Similarly for a mind expelled from its animal skin.
I missed that! Still, that means that the crypts offer no “shielding” against this. After all, the people encased in the crypts would have died outside of them, and thus the minds would have been expelled from the animal skin long before they were in the crypts.
Again, I really think that almost all of the big guns have been hung. Years and years of fan-speculation has led to a lot of ideas that are conjecture built upon conjectures built upon conjectures: and many have no actual basis in the books or show. If the actual basis has not been show/written, then unless B,W&M are going to go Tolkien on us, it won’t happen.
Sensei:
With 67 out of 73 total episodes (92%) already aired, I’ve assumed all of the “guns” have been hung – or else they may as well have a spaceship with aliens swoop in to save the day (like the deus ex machina spoof scene in Monty Python’s Life of Brian).
I’m also proceeding under the assumption that many of the details and mythology from the books that have not been mentioned on the show at all are inconsequential to the resolution of the story.
And then there’s what I’d call, for want of a better term, “conspicuously empty gun racks”: places we should’ve expected to see a gun hung, but when we got there, nothing was on the wall – which could mean that a “gun” many assumed we be fired in S8 never existed at all.
(If that makes no sense, I’ll try to explain some other time, but you’ve touched on some of this with examples of accepted historical facts that have turned out to revisionist, fictionalized accounts.
– Grasshopper
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I think the Hound might have reached a point in his arc where he might have greater respect for the cerebral sorts than earlier in his life, so I could see such an exchange happening with respect on both sides (especially if Sandor finds out that Sam, of all people, found the courage to kill a White Walker). Given the lack of coincidences in the MartinVerse (my apologies for repeating this point ad nauseam), I keep trying to think of the significance of “where the heart is.” I have no doubt that it will be greater than teaching Arya a lesson about mercy or anatomy.
mau,
I would be stoked if either of them winds up wielding it! Jorah is as fitting and deserving a candidate as Sandor.
Ten Bears,
Oh, I was getting tinfoily up the wazoo this morning, before I’d even finished my first cup of coffee. It’s really pathetic. Tinfoiliness grips my person before I’ve even given any thought to Dornish red, much less hippocras. And how did it afflict me today? When I was thinking about this year’s winner of best quote: “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.”
Well, then. Why is the Stark sigil a lone wolf?
And isn’t it interesting that there are three hounds on the Clegane sigil? And that those three hounds died successfully defending Tywin’s father Tytos from a lioness he was hunting?
Yes, grand-père Clegane, Tytos’s kennelmaster, was elevated to lordship because his hounds saved Tytos from the very animal that symbolizes House Lannister. Incidentally, all the animals, lioness and hounds, were female. And Sandor Clegane, for all his deep faults and violently-lived life, has never been a misogynist.
What does any of this mean? I have no idea; I didn’t get that far. I’m not a morning person.
Wolfish,
This is interesting stuff! I am not a morning person either, so let me let it all percolate for a while.
I hadn’t picked up on the lioness-killing, though I was familiar with that story from referencing books! histories of the Clegane family when constructing a tinfoil Sandor = Valanqar theory from the perspective of Stannis, The One True Grammatically Precise King.
Wolfish,
In a books-TV adaptation that has prematurely terminated several prominent or popular characters who I understand are still alive in the books, or severely abridged their book story lines (e.g., Barristan Selmy, Mance Rayder, Doran Martell) – which has led me to assume those jettisoned characters won’t figure into the “endgame” – it would’ve been easy enough to leave The Hound “dead” after his tumble off the cliff in S4e10.
That Sandor was not only brought back from the presumed dead tells me that the showrunners were either so enamored with Rory McCann’s performance that they decided to retain the character as fanservice window dressing – or, more likely, because Sandor Clegane will emerge to play a significant role in the endgame.
Now I know people talk about the “Big Five” or “Big Six” characters: Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, and maybe Sansa, Jaime, or Cersei. Still, I’ve noticed that GoT is unique in that “major characters” introduced at the beginning whose stories you’d expect to follow to the end, are unexpectedly killed off early on, like Ned and Robb.
The flip side of that is there have been ostensibly minor, supporting characters who have evolved into major players. (I’d consider Davos and Tormund to be in this category.) Without knowing how much “screen time” Sandor got in the books, allow me to suggest that it may have been a deliberate choice all along – in books and show – to present Sandor Clegane as a background, “accessory” character (e.g., to Joffrey, then Sansa, then Arya), and then have him emerge into a major character with his own arc.
Here are two interview excerpts to chew on: The first from GRRM before the show premiered in 2011, and the second from Rory McCann in 2017 (followed by some “in universe” dialogue snippets suggesting an expanded/important role for Sandor Clegane).
• From GRRM 4/15/11 Time Magazine interview
(Explaining why he felt his books could not be made into a movie):
….And in the one movie you’re going to lose 90% of the characters and subplots. I mean, I’ve been a screenwriter myself. You have to go into a big book like this and you have to say, well, what’s the arc? Who’s the major character? Well focus on him and/or her and we’ll follow that major character through and we’ll pare away all these secondary characters and secondary stories and then we’ll get a movie out of it. Not only didn’t I want that done, but I didn’t think it could be done because in the early books, I’m deliberately disguising who the major characters are.
• Rory McCann, over six years later, from Rory McCann 8/28/17 HuffPost Interview:
“….I didn’t realize they were going to bring me slowly [in] for the next six years, but it’s just been a wonderful thing. I feel my first job, my first two days on “Game of Thrones,” was “spear carrier with a bit of history potentially,” “spear carrier looking after the king or the king’s son.” And going from that to one of the major characters and delving into his history and who he’s clashing with, it’s just been such a privilege with this. I’ve been going on this arc, this character development. He’s a different character from when he first started, and I don’t think I’ll ever get a job like this again.
—————————-
“In-Universe”
“Go in peace, Sandor Clegane. The Lord of Light isn’t done with you yet.” – Beric S3e5
“There’s a reason you’re still here…The gods aren’t done with you yet.” – Brother Ray S6e7
“There’s something greater than us, and whatever it is, it’s got plans for Sandor Clegane.” – Brother Ray S6e7
“You can still help a lot more than you’ve harmed, Clegane. It’s not too late for you.” – Beric S6e8
“It’s never too late…to start helping people. It’s
never too late to come back.” Brother Ray, S6e7
Ten Bears,
I love the conspiciously empty gun racks! And that makes prefect sense actually.
Wolfish,
Hmm… the Night King created with a shard of dragonglass in the heart… Benjen saved from turning into a wight by dragonglass in the heart… then we have that really conspicuous line from Sansa to Arya about Jon: “…when he sees you, his heart will probably stop”.
That’s rather worrying. Hopefully a red herring.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I’m having my biggest OMG moment right now.
Been wondering about the significance of arya’s dagger, thought that maybe it’s Arya who kills the night king, but now it makes sense.
“when Jon sees you his heart will probably stop” that’s an odd sentence. So maybe Arya brings Jon back with a dagger in his heart
I’m more worried that selfless, Mr. Big Picture Jon Snow will decide to voluntarily undergo the Benjen Treatment for some reason – and thereby end up as a half-dead, half-alive sentient wight in self-exile in the Land of Always Winter.
Sort of like how Spock, with the rationale “The Needs of the Many Outweigh the Needs of the Few”, sacrificed himself by subjecting himself to lethal radiation to save his Enterprise crewmates; or how Wikus, in “District 9”, chose to forego halting and reversing his genetic transformation into an alien, in order to enable his new alien friends to escape to their home world.
Ten Bears:
I’m definitely in Camp B here. In the books there are very, very clear indications that he’s alive. The character of Brother Ray on the show is a hippie-fied truncation of two characters from the books. (I’ll write no more.)
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Stoneheart,
I’ve been turning mental somersaults about this since first watching the episode!
That would be such a Jon thing to do, and completely in line with GRRM’s love for “bittersweet” endings. The man who’s only wanted to belong, who finally might have a place in the world and a family of his own making, in self-imposed exile for the rest of his life, alone, friendless, all in service to the realm that rightfully belongs to him.
If this happens, I’m knitting him the snuggliest of blankets.
Isabelle,
Whether he’s failed or succeeded, Jon has become the Great Conciliator. The realm doesn’t really need another great swordfighter or battle commander. From Jon’s S5e5? scene unchaining Tormund; his earlier suicide mission to Mance in S4e10; his raid on Craster’s Keep to apprehend or kill the mutineers before they ratted out the NW; his parlay with the Wildlings in S5e8; his mission to Dragonstone; his talk with Beric in S7e6 about their “purpose”; and his attempts to convince Cersei to join together to face the existential threat – he’s consistently sacrificed his own self-interests in order to make peace with enemies and defend others, all for the greater good. That’s what got him “killed” the first time with a dagger(s) to the heart.
Stoneheart,
What I want to know is…
Why was a picture of that dagger in the old illustrated book in the Citadel that Gilly and Sam were looking at in early S7?
Also: If Arya was just going to take out someone on her list, she could use Needle or choose knives from the cutlery set she’s used to slice up, carve up, aerate, and dispose of Meryn F. Trant, Black Walder, Lothar, and Walder Frey.
There has to be a good reason why she’s got a VS weapon…
I love District 9. What a great movie.
Jon will be the new Night King, of a fashion.
Ten Bears:
First, I think when Bran asked Littlefinger if he knew to whom the dagger had belonged he didn’t mean in the present day; he meant in the far past, when it was first crafted.
Second, I think the nonchalant manner in which he gave it to Arya very purposefully masked its true importance, because he knows that Arya can’t yet understand the gravity of the threat or what she must do to stop it.
Third, I have a (probably ridiculous, but who knows?) theory about destroying the Night King. The foot soldiers can be killed by fire, Valyrian steel, or dragonglass. The lieutenants can be killed by Valyrian steel or dragonglass, but not fire. I theorize that the NK can only be killed by dragonglass. Either that, or returned to his human form.
Wolfish,
About killing the Night King:
I still don’t understand why Jon told Beric, “You don’t understand”, when Beric suggested they try to take out the Big Kahuna and the rest would fall like dominos. [Paraphrasing, of course.]
I thought Jon might say, “Okay. I’ve got a VS sword. You’ve got dragonglass and a flammable sword. Let’s do it!”
I have no idea what Jon could’ve been thinking when he said “You don’t understand.”
Ten Bears,
I have always wondered about that myself.
Wolfish,
Me too
I don’t think about red herrings and clues on my first watch, I just enjoy it but when Sansa said that line, I was completely cut off guard.
On the other hand I expect Jon and Arya to reunite in the first episode, and its highly doubtful that any war happens in that episode, unless for whatever reason their reunion is postponed and now I’m confused again about this theory.
Ten Bears,
Even John Bradley said after the episode, that he was asked to stay on the page containing the valyrian dagger, long enough so that it was obvious what it is.
Stoneheart,
Well damn. The show has made such a big deal about Valyrian Steel, so there’s gotta be something inportant about that dagger or its history. No clue what it could possibly be, other than tinfoil.
Clob,
Tyrion is smart – almost too smart for his own good. I did wonder if there might have been ‘a deal’ with Cersei. We know that Tyrion was concerned that Dany was barren, and the succession was an issue – and at the point he was worried, neither of the then two claimants (Dany and Cersei) has, or was likely to have, a child/heir.
And we know that Dany is actually partly right –
from her rant at Tyrion on the beach after the fall of Casterly Rock –
“You mean your family. Maybe you don’t want to destroy them”….
from the argument between Trion and Cersei after the dragonpit –
“I don’t want to destroy our family, I never have”
We also know that GRRM loves to recycle actual history – especially Planatagenet (war of the Roses, ‘Prince who was promised’, Mad king, fake claimants (Warbeck) – well, one story he has not recycled yet is how the Planatagenets came to power in the first place – A war called the Anarchy between the dodgy Norman claimant Stephen, and the overseas Empress Matilda, both sides running half of England at one point – the conclusion? Stephen kept his throne, but with no heir, he agreed that Matilda’s son, Henry would become Henry II, the first Plantagenet king.
So what if Tyrion on realising the pregnancy was angling for a deal where Dany might claim the Throne…only to bequeath it to Cersei and Jamie’s new child, whom she would foster/ward. This, of course, is both a ‘betrayal for love’, and a deal that could absolutely fall apart if the “king of the North” becomes involved.
Even ignoring the R+L=J problem, Littlefinger is not wrong – given their mutual feelings, it is arguably easier for Dany, and better for Jon, to create a marriage alliance which unites the 7 kingdoms and the North without resentment. Given Dany’s belief in her own barrenness, there’s nothing much to lose by doing this, and it provides an unbreakable alliance with the North, the Wildlings and even the Watch -it secures the North without a drop of bloodshed by doing something she might fancy doing anyway.
So the problem at this point is not Dany’s. It’s Tyrions. Because if we recognise Dany’s view that there is no Targaryan heir, arguably Sansa, as Jon’s chosen heir, provides the most likely heir if Dany predeceases Jon with no heir (think William and Mary, succeeded by Mary’s sister Anne, rather than her Brother James III (old pretender)) – and there’s no reason to believe Sansa is barren – in other words, the Stark-Targs could take a permanent grasp of the Iron throne, and basically screw over Cersie and Jaime’s child.
Tyrion is smart enough to know that this particular relationship could blow up the whole deal he’s trying to create – what he doesn’t know yet is R+L=J (which arguably makes things worse), Dany’s likely miracle pregnanacy or Cersei’s betrayal.
Martin MceEvoy,
What if Sansa is right about Cersei destroying her enemies, and Cersei sends a hit squad to pull a Talisa and snuff out Daeny and her unborn child?
This is why I was distressed that S8 may feature baby dramas – Cersei’s, Daeny’s or both. It brings me back to school days when I was forced to watch “General Hospital” and “All My Children” between morning and afternoon classes.
Incredible news,. Winterfell is where the show begin and where i should end. Aegon Stark on the throne of winter. Off topic just watched the newish king Arthur game of thrones is criminally underrated.
Martin MceEvoy,
Yes, I also think that the idea of such compromise (Cersei steps back, but Dany agrees to make her child her heir) could have crossed Tyrion’s mind when he learned about Cersei’s pregnancy. But it was doomed from the beginning, because Cersei had other plans as we have learned shortly afterwards. Dany might have accepted that, even Jon might have accepted that, but not Cersei – she is not giving up the Iron Throne even for the sake of her own child. So, the idea, if it was present, won’t have major consequences: it may drive a wedge between Dany and Tyrion or it may work as an extra motive for Jaime to ally with the Targ-Starks, but IMO it’s kind of excessive. And the major problem Tyrion has with Dany’s and Jon’s romance and marriage is that he is being sidelined: it happened already in Ep704 – Dany yelled at him and turned to Jon for adwise. In S8 the process should continue, so IMO Tyrion will look for ways to restore his influence and so will Sansa. It’s quite possible that this will bring them together and prompt to resume their marriage.
I don’t see what that would add to the story, seeing as Jaime will pretty much immediately inform Team Good Guys next year that Cersei is planning to betray them, which would make any such arrangement between Tyrion and Cersei null and void.
Stoneheart,
Hey, I almost forgot: Arya still has a date with the Red Witch, does she not? When Melisandre bought Gendry from the BwoB for leech sex, Mel looked into Arya’s eyes and (paraphrasing) told her she saw a darkness in her, and in that darkness brown, blue and green eyes staring back at her, “eyes you will shut forever”; and “we will meet again.”
Well, since that send-off Arya has shut forever over 60 pair of eyes. So Mel got that right. 😋
As for the second part…
Maybe that’s why Gendry was whinging so much about Melisandre: to set up for a Lommy/Polliver – style revenge kill by the Many-Faced Goddess.
Inga,
Ive been hoping for that, for a long time.
Ten Bears,
I have been thinking on this too. Arya and Mel need to meet again, and Mel is still on Arya’s list I believe? The encounter happened a long time ago, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see something like this. But I was also thinking that Davos would get to execute Mel… just from how their last meeting went, and I think that after all they’ve been through that he deserves the kill.
I kind of had in mind that Varys would hatch some plot for the good of the realm that betrays Dany, but once Mel gets back to Westeros she outs Varys to Dany because she saw the betrayal in her flames. Then Dany will promptly burn Varys alive, and we will finally find out what the flames said to Varys… (I’m thinking the flames might have just told him his destiny of being burned alive, which might be a little anti-climactic but I haven’t thought of anything better as of yet). With Mel back in Westeros, Davos will reunite with her and keep his promise, executing Mel on site (after Mel helps Dany and Jon out in the bigger scheme of things). Maybe he will be good buds with Arya by then and he’ll have her help, but that’s just me being hopeful (I think Davos and Arya would be a pretty good duo).
Still need to flesh out these ideas a bit, but it’s a start of some good ol’ fashioned tinfoil speculation. Please add to it as you see fit.
Tasty little morsels of spoilers ! Yippee ! Thanks a bunch, it is always great !
That is an excellent question indeed.
I think D&D got a bit stuck with Varys, to be honest… I believe they started writing the character very much like he appears in the books, with the somewhat clear implication that his “for the good of the realm” schtick is, for the most part, a cover/rationalisation to justify his support of his best friend Illyrio’s protégé. However, the writers may have since realised/found out that the whole “Mummer’s Dragon” storyline was, in the great scheme of things, not going to amount to much, so they decided not to include him on the show and, therefore, had to change Varys’s motivation midstream.
So it is entirely possible that we truly are supposed to believe the Spider’s real focus is the welfare of Westeros’s lowborns, as he told Daenerys. That he feels a kinship with the “little people” and wants to promote whichever putative ruler will care for them the best. It is, obviously, difficult to sqaure this with Season 1 Varys keenly planning to unleash Dothraki rapists and pillagers onto an unsuspecting population (something that would not have benefited Westeros’s lowborns one bit) but here we are… Or may be, at least.
There are so very few Valyrian steel weapons left that I am not that surprised all of them would be listed in a book. On the show, there are only five (Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow’s Wail, Catspaw and Heartsbane) and it is unlikely more will be revealed in the final season.
As for why the dagger was featured in the book Gilly was reading, it could simply be a little “prank”, so to speak, played by the set department and the writers on the fans : they give us an intriguing detail to endlessly speculate about, just for sh*ts and giggles ^^
Now, that is of course not to say that Catspaw is not important. Again, there is just a handful of Valyrian steel weapons and, with Jaime marching towards Winterfell, all of them will soon be in the North, on the frontline of the battle against the White Walkers. So I think it is safe to assume they will all have a part to play, including the dagger. But ultimately, only one of them will get to stab the Night King in the heart so four will have to be left on the sidelines for the main event. As far as our speculations go, I think it all boils down to a battle between wielders : whose narrative arc is best suited for the task ? Jon’s (Longclaw), Brienne’s (Oathkeeper), Jaime’s (Widow’s Wail) or Arya’s (Catspaw). Heartsbane’s master is still to be determined, since Sam is unlikely to use it himself. But I do love the idea of this sword being given to the Hound ! He is, after all, the bane of everyone’s heart ^^
That being said, Sam does not know him at all for now and may be more likely to give his family’s sword to Jorah, with whom he shares a meaningful, albeit brief, history. However, Arya could gift her dagger to her former best enemy, protector and tutor (she heard him say he always wanted a Valyrian steel weapon) as a token of her gratitude and forgiveness…
You make a very good point. Tyrion’s ego is indeed a bit of a problem and he is unlikely to be pleased with a seond-rate position in Danerys’s government.
There is also the small problem of heroics. The Mother of Dragons gave an excellent speech about the drawbacks of heroes being in charge, just before she gave in to her own brand of heroism and decided to take her three dragons to rescue the King in the North…
Both Daenerys and Jon want to be heroes, they cannot help themselves. Without a more pragmatic/down-to-earth influence, they are likely not to be that great a ruling duo. That prospect could worry Tyrion too. We cannot forget that what convinced the littlest lion to pull out of his patricide-induced depression and suicidal tendency was Varys’s promise he could do some good for the world if he backed Daenerys. Tyrion wants to fix the things his father helped both built and break; he wants to help a monarch rule so he can both honour Tywin and spit on his grave. Be a Hand, like his daddy, and be humane, unlike his daddy.
The Tarly barbecue gave him serious doubts about Daenerys’s liberator narrative and her rushed and visceral decision to jeopardise her three dragons and herself for Jon’s sake gave him even more concern in regards to her wisdom. Furthermore, after seeing Jon enter Daenerys’s bedroom, he knows for a fact that his queen’s take on the artist formerly known as the KitN is at least partly driven by personal affection. Now, Tyrion is in no place to judge, given his own tendency to let his heart get in the way of his brain. But he still may have a problem with the way Daenerys is handling her business.
I am not yet entirely convinced they will go as far as resuming their marriage but an alliance between them seems extremely likely and justified indeed.
Unless the Night King wants a personal mano-a-mano with Dolorous Edd, just to add to the great man’s persecution complex… 😛
As a reminder there are six episodes remaining in the series. The last episode may end up showing us everything after the war, so there could be five episodes to accomplish everything. As such, saying it’s “too soon” for certain events to happen is ridiculous. If you’ve read the script please let us know. I recall many people said similar things when speculating about last season- and we all know how that turned out.
Considering MS is directing episode three it is a reasonable guess that three horns will blow at the end of episode two announcing the arrival of the White Walkers at Winterfell. Then the battle would take place during the following episode.
ACME,
“the artist formerly known as the KitN”
————–
Ha ha! Good one 😁
Is it? Based on what we’ve seen, particularly last season, their policy preferences are totally different. Indeed, Sansa is probably temperamentally closer to Daenerys than any of her current advisors; she’d certainly have given the thumbs up to the Tarly BBQ that Tyrion and Varys were so worried about.
*Castle Black*
*knock at gate*
*gate slowly opens before Edd, Night King stands on other side*
Edd: “…..”
NK: “……”
Edd: “………”
NK: “………”
Edd: “Right. Fuck my life.”
*gate slowly closes again*
😂
What !?
I don’t think so, hell even the D & D said in comments that they were showing the differences between Sansa and Danny when condemning someone to death and compassion.
On the FoF Danny, didn’t care about circumstances or perception, it was bend or die; and there was no real reason to burn Dickon Tarley.
Sansa actually thought about what she was about to do and even once she steeled herself to pass the sentence, you could see the tracks of tear and emotions on her face.
Just my opinion.
I do not know whether Jon is the Prince that Was Promised but he sure as hell is Westeros’s Prince : short, curly-haired and sexy. Now, all that is needed is for someone to convince him to change into a velvet suit.
Yes, yes, yes and oh god yes ! I want to see that ! You prefectly captured Edd’s dejected take on the apocalypse 😂
Edd, Davos, the Hound… What makes these characters so great is their matter-of-fact approach of the extraordinary/supernatural. To them, it is at best a tool to use, at worst a nuisance to be dealt with.
I am afraid I do not quite see what policy differences you are referring to.
Are there parallels between Daenerys and Sansa ? Of course. They are both women in a misogynistic world and have survived many of the same horrors (like Missandei and Cersei and Lysa…). So it is understandable that they are all, in parts at least, driven by the same form of self-belief and spite.
But in regards to their respective policies, I do not see the similarities.
I do not think you are comparing the Tarlys’ execution to Littlefinger’s because, from a purely structural hence political standpoint, Baelish’s death was enthusiastically validated by all of Sansa’s advisors (Bran, Arya and Lord Royce) whereas the Tarlys’ was very much opposed by Daenerys’s Hand. So, in one case, we have a monarch going against a senior member of her government while in the other, we have a (substitute) ruler working with hers.
Furthermore, as far as I can recall, Sansa was only demonstrably bloodthirsty once and it was with Ramsay. Now, that was not reassuring at all, for sure, but there were extenuating and very personal circumstances there. It does not make it right but it contextualises the decision. I struggle to infer, from this one instance, that she would have validated the Tarly roast…
The only potential parallel I can think of is the one between the Tarlys’ situation and Ned Umber and Alys Karstark’s but even that does not quite fit either.
Tyrion’s take on the Tarlys was not that they should not be punished or intimidated into submission; he was, after all, perfectly fine with Jon being taken prisoner even though he genuinely likes the White Wolf and perfectly understood why he did not want to bend the knee. Tyrion’s point was that Randyll and Dickon should not be executed unless it was absolutely indispensable. For all intents and purposes, “no unnecessary bloodshed” is Tyrion’s main policy.
Sansa, for her part, has yet to advocate for any bloodshed and she did not want Ned Umber and Alys Karstark to be physically or emotionally harmed in any way : she wanted them stripped of their titles and their castles given to other people, as rewards for said people’s loyalty.
Had Randyll and Dickon died on the battlefield and had Daenerys subsequently decided to “abase” socially their heirs, would Tyrion have disapproved ? He might have, to a degree, but I seriously doubt such a call would have given him the same shivers as the decision to roast the Tarlys.
Now, Jon’s policy of letting bygones be bygones is, I believe, one the littlest lion would more readily embrace on an ethical standpoint. However, I cannot quite shake the notion that he would wonder whether leaving Last Hearth and Karhold, the two strongholds closest to the Wall, in the hands of children is the wisest of decisions. Under normal circumstances, it would be perfectly harmless but with the White Walkers on their merry way south, it may prove less than ideal.
Children being in charge is all cute and fun when it is Lyanna Mormont ruling over Bear Island for, in the great scheme of things, Bear Island does not matter : it is remote and only about 200 people live there. Conversely, Last Hearth and Karhold are important.
D and D are talentless hacks – I would not place much importance in their statements. They also called Arya a one-dimensional bad-ass whose only story apparently is going from adventure to adventure – this, despite them handing over Arya’s book narratives to Sansa on the show because Sansa is their fave.
They called Needle as symbolizing revenge for Arya when we have this beautiful quote in the books
Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.
We actually saw Maisie acting out this scene wonderfully with Arya looking at Needle and tears in her eyes and then David and Dan turn up and say that Needle is revenge for Arya.
We see Dany being conflicted and sad about executing Mossador on the show and Sansa smirking as Ramsay is eaten alive by starving dogs.
Dany executed Tarly traitors – the same as Umber and Karstark were executed in the BOTB for being traitors. The punishment for treason is death. Remember that Sansa wanted to go even further and punish their children for their fathers sins.
So there is actually not much difference between Sansa and Dany. It’s Jon who is different.
And Tyrion is a hypocrite for criticizing Dany considering he has killed people on the opposing side with Wildfire.
SerNoName,
Yup, if anything, the closest parallel Dany has to Sansa executing Littlefinger would be her inability to execute Jorah. The parallels between Jorah and Littlefinger are quite glaring even on the show, which tends to portray Jorah as a super good guy.
Agree. I don’t even know why David and Dan are comparing Dany executing the Tarly traitors, people who are strangers to her, to Sansa’s execution of LF, someone who has been with Sansa right from season one, who has mentored her and helped her and saved her life countless times. Of course Sansa will be rightfully sad and conflicted about killing LF – he’s been her ally more than anyone else. The Tarlys on the other hand are Dany’s enemies – whose betrayal and treason cost her Highgarden and a good ally in Olenna Tyrell. Because of them looting and pillaging the Reach, Cersei is now sitting with gold to hire the Golden Company and betray the North.
I think if there is an apt comparison to Sansa executing LF, it’s Dany feeling sad to execute Mossador. He was her ally and adviser. She did not want to, but had to. Because the laws and justice demanded it. Just like Jon had to execute Olly.
And it’s not like Dany did not give them an option. Both Tarlys chose to die – so be it.
In fact Dany and Jon also hold similarities – they both hold to not blaming the children for the sins of the father. Sansa is even more brutal in her punishment – she wants even the children of traitors punished.
D and D calling Sansa more compassionate is just ridiculous. But I have come to expect nothing else from them. They often tend to shit on other characters in order to prop up Sansa. Arya’s shit story last season is evidence of this.
I am afraid I have no idea what you are referring to here.
There is no contradiction between the passage you quoted and D&D’s take on Needle, me thinks. Needle is everything Arya lost and mourns, eveything she loved/loves and will never get back as it once was. So, yes, it is everything she is avenging.
I fear you may be conflating three very different things in this particular case : killing people in battle, killing prisoners of war and punishing Houses for treason.
Battles are horrible but they are a place and time when killing one’s enemies, by whichever means available, is broadly speaking accepted. It is kill or be killed time. Smalljon Umber and Harald Karstark were not executed, they died in battle and so did all the Baratheon men killed at Blackwater. That is why no one criticises either Jon for leading the charge against Smalljon and Harald or Tyrion for using wildfire or Daenerys for unleashing the Dothraki (the dragons might have been overkill) in Meereen or the Field of Fire redux.
Prisoners of war, since they are no longer an immediate threat, are handled differently. Depending on circumstances, they can be condemned to death, held as hostages or released. The Tarlys were prisoners of war who could have been imprisoned for a little while, to help them “see the light”; instead, they got to see another type of light and are now two crisps. Ramsay was a prisoner of war as well but he was never going to become a trustworthy ally and had killed the last legitimate, male, able-bodied Stark heir so his execution was completely warranted; the manner in which he was captured and killed, however, was appalling and can only be explained, not excused, by the deeply personal history between him and the Stark siblings.
Punishing a treacherous House is a purely political matter and can be done in a variety of ways : the House can be “fined”, it can lose some if not all of its lands / titles / prerogatives / etc. In those instances, the physical integrity of the House members is not jeopardised in any way; the only things at risk are their position and possessions. Sansa wanting to deprive the Umber and Karstark heirs of their titles and power falls into that category, so does Daenerys’s decision to end the former slavers’ (and their descendants’) birthright privileges.
On a sidenote, the Tarlys did not betray Daenerys because they never swore allegiance to her; Lady Olenna did, without consulting her lords. If the Queen of Thorns had been focused on sound politics instead of merely wanting to cause Cersei as much damage and pain as possible, she would have taken the time to inform her vassals of her decision and to justify it to them. Had they known that Daenerys’s Dothraki had sworn no longer to rape and pillage, that her Ironborn had made the same promise, that her Hand was not a regicide… Perhaps they would not have been convinced by Cersei’s arguments. But Olenna did not care about politics anymore so she did not do her job and let the Tarlys and all the others believe she had signed off their region to a bunch of raping and enslaving murderers. Given the information they had, their decision to rebel against her and Daenerys was not only understandable, it was respectable.
A good rule of thumb, when it comes to loyalty, is proportion : if some of your people want to betray you, they are arseholes; if virtually all of them want to betray you, you screwed up.
Maybe if you read the books, you would.
Needle represents home and family to Arya. Not revenge. That’s why she cries. That’s why she holds on to it despite the rules of the FM. It reminds her of who she is as a person – Arya Stark of Winterfell.
I see. So you are saying that the Sansa who advocated for a 10 year old child to be punished for his father’s treason, would have just put Small Jon Umber in prison and not executed him? As Jon clearly explained to Sansa, the punishment for treason is death – whether in battle or after. If Umber and Karstark had survived, Jon would have chopped off their heads with Longclaw.
Jon got plenty of criticism for unleashing the Wildlings in Westeros – that’s the reason for the Umbers siding against him. The Tarlys sided with Cersei because Dany brought the Dothraki to Westeros. Tyrion’s wildfire killed Davos’ son and painfully burned many soldiers to death.
If you are talking about audience response, then yes, many people sided with these decisions because Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the good guys and have to make some tough decisions, even though they are not always right.
Again, the punishment for treason is death. This is a law that has been universally followed in Westeros. It is the law in the North and it is the law in the other kingdoms. LF was executed for treason, Ramsay was brutally and painfully executed for treason, Rickard Stark was executed for treason. Jon states that if SmallJon Umber and Harald Karstark had survived they would have been executed for treason.
Dany was actually ready to pardon them and send them to the wall. They refused. In this case the only thing she could do was execute them for their crime.
As the master strategist Tywin himself said:
Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.
And no one should listen to Tyrion anymore. He was an utter fool the entire season whose advice has resulted in Dany losing all her allies, the NK getting a dragon, the wall falling and the North thinking that Cersei is going to help.
Wait. You are comparing Alys Karstark and Ned Umber to slavers?!! Dany punished the slavers themselves. She did not selectively go after their children.
Sansa wanted to take away the homes and lands of the Karstark and Umber children and throw them to the smallfolk. They would become beggars like Dany and Viserys were when they lost everything. Which is why Jon decides to not take away their ancestral lands. The children bend the knee and swear their oaths to Jon. To quote master strategist Tywin once again.
Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you
Jon and Dany understand that it’s not right to punish children for their father’s sins. Dany forgives Ned’s role in what happened to her family and Jon sees Dany for who she is and bends the knee despite the Mad King.
Nope. The Tarlys were traitors. End of story. That’s why Dickon was so affected by their looting and pillaging and killing. He was killing men who were almost like brothers to him. Olenna was their leige and they turned on her and killed her men and looted her lands. And Olenna was sworn to Dany. Which meant treason to Dany as well.
If the Northern Lords turned against Jon because he bend the knee, that would be treason against Jon as well. Turning against your King or your liege lord for whatever reason is treason.
I see. So the Boltons, Umbers, Karstarks changing sides and the rest of the North refusing to help the Starks must mean that the Starks screwed up massively and are unfit to rule the North. Good thing Dany is going to take over!!
SerNoName,
They are the same type of dreams Jaime has when he sleeps on a weirwood stump and Theon when he sleeps in Ned’s Weirwood bed
ACME,
“A good rule of thumb, when it comes to loyalty, is proportion: if some of your people want to betray you, they are arseholes; if virtually all of them want to betray you, you screwed up.”
……………………………
This is brilliant. May I footnote you in the future?
Aegon the Icedragon,
“Man it’s some batsh*t crazy theories being posted on here. And I thought some of my fanfic was out there… It’s like some people have been watching a different show altogether. I can’t even link some of these theories to the novels…”
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1. Just wait until my Grand Unified Triple Tinfoil Layer Ultra Batsh*t Crazy Theory is rolled out.
2. For now, it may be like mixing apples and oranges to attempt to “link some of [the theories posted on here] to the novels.” Lots of stuff from the books has been omitted from the show. I think in a few instances, the show has included things not yet addressed or revealed in the books. Some details have been subtly (and deliberately?) changed, like the wording of prophecies.
To try to mix and match books! and show! can make your head explode. That is one reason I’m waiting until the show is over to read the books. Another is to see if GRRM finds his muse between now and then, and finishes The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring in a flurry of inspired creativity.
I can’t decide whether I find it amusing or depressing that some people use the “at least she gave them a choice” defence for Daenerys burning the Tarlys alive for refusing to submit to her, in order to terrify others into submitting.
Here’s a quote from a couple of Game of Thrones’ other great heroes…
Roose: “We can’t hold The North with terror alone”
Ramsay: “We can’t hold The North if we let these lesser lords insult us.”
Roose: “I sent you there to collect taxes. Not bodies.”
Ramsay:“Lord Cerwyn refused to pay. Said the Warden of the North would always be a Stark and he’d be damned if he’d kiss a traitor’s boot.”
Roose: “He left you no choice.”
Ramsay: “I flayed him living, along with his wife and brother. Made his son watch.”
Roose: “And?”
Ramsay: “The new Lord Cerwyn paid his taxes.”
Or how about Stannis, when he burned Axell Florent and others alive for refusing to renounce their religion and submit to the Lord of Light…
– “I ordered him to tear down his idols. He disobeyed”
…or his approach with Mance…
– “I’ll offer them their lives and their freedom. If Mance kneels before me and swears his loyalty”
– “Convince him to bend the knee. Or he burns”
– “Bend the knee, I promise you mercy … Kneel and live”
Or how about Theon and his execution of Ser Rodrik?
Theon: “I’ll lock him in a cell until he rots…”
Dagmar: “No. He has to pay the iron price. They’ll never respect you while he lives.”
Theon: “He disrespected me in front of my men. That was his decision, not mine.”
Luwin: “He’s worth more to you alive than dead. The Starks will pay. Please, Theon. Think what you do.”
Theon: “You’ll address me as Prince Theon, or you’ll be next.”
(These three examples are all absolutely riddled with parallels to the Tarly execution. I was going to put them all in bold, but I’d have to highlight half the text, so there seems no point)
But they all had a choice, right?
Although let’s bear in mind that Daenerys also denied the Tarlys a choice. She denies them the option of imprisonment and makes it a straight choice between death or submission there and then.
“I meant what I said. I’m not here to put men in chains. If that becomes an option, many will take it. I gave them a choice. They made it.”
So, rather than imprison people who refuse to submit, she will instead execute people until everybody else is appropriately terrified into submitting?
And this is a better approach than the Masters? Or Cersei? Or the characters mentioned above?
This is usually the point where, in desperation, people start quibbling over how painful the executions were, as if that’s the real issue at hand. How flaying and burning people alive the ordinary way are much more painful than the supposedly instantaneous death by dragon fire – even though the Tarlys were clearly shown flailing and screaming in the flames on screen in the episode.
I honestly don’t know what more the producers could have done, other than flash the words “WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!” on the screen throughout the scene, to make it more clear that we’re supposed to be repelled by her actions.
Everything indluding the staging, the dialogue, the music, the parallels with other characters, Tyrion and Varys’ reactions… it’s as plain as day that we’re not supposed to be apologising for Daenerys in this instance.
Yet, bizarrely, some people choose to.
Hahahaha!! Dany now being compared to Ramsay and Theon!! Now, I have heard it all!
Maybe compare her to Joffrey as well while we are it. She likes torturing her prisoners to death just like him, right? Those poor Tarlys burned!
When she gave them the option to go to the wall, she was just joking -playing with them.
Let’s also equate her to the Night King. They brought bring about destruction to Westeros. Dany with her dragons and the NK with his army of the dead.
Anyone else? LF maybe? Dany is out there with some of the worst villains in the series. I mean she burned those nice Tarly folks!
I really don’t know what Jon was thinking when he said that she had a good heart and bend the knee. Must not have realized what a terrible person she is. I am sure kind, compassionate, merciful Sansa will teach him about mercy and compassion and then Jon will see the error of his decisions.
Season 8 is going to be awesome!
Well, at least you’ve proven your complete lack of objectivity with that really rather silly response.
I don’t think I said anywhere that Daenerys was on a specific par with all the worst villains in the show.
I just drew comparisons between her mentality in this instance and those of characters who are held in appropriate disdain for similar attitudes/decisions, in order to support what the producers were clearly trying to convey and highlight how ludicrous defending her position is.
And, yeah, you could draw a comparison with Joffrey. He chose to execute Ned Stark for “treason” in front of his daughter, in order to unequivocally assert his authority, despite all of his advisers, even Cersei, urging him to send Ned to The Wall instead.
And, yes, there are parallels between Daenerys and the Night King too – ice/fire, dragons, army of magic converts, foreign yet not foreign invader, imagery…
This is obviously hard for you to take. The thought that there might be some reasonable parallels in themes, imagery, morality etc. between your favourite character and some of the less palatable characters appears too much for you to contemplate.
I’m not sure why, though. This isn’t Disney. And the show has repeatedly highlighted the blurred morality of this world and the grey characters that populate it.
These are parallels and comparisons we’re talking about. Not assertions that they’re identical in every way.
It’s funny though that you bring up Jon seeing Dany’s good heart and not realising that she is a “terrible person” (your words, not mine) as proof that the parallels I’ve drawn are obviously wrong, when on the show Jon specifically does not know about Dany’s treatment of the Tarlys.*
We have not seen Jon’s reaction or the fallout from that revelation yet. And yet with no hint of irony you use Jon, who is privy to less information and insight into Dany’s character and decisions than we viewers are, as the ultimate authority on what kind of person she is
I don’t know how anybody can watch this show with so little consideration of the nuances.
*BTW, Dany didn’t offer them the option to go to The Wall. Tyrion suggested that after Daenerys had already given all of the defeated soldiers the choice to bend the knee or die. And Randyll Tarly rejected that notion before it was confirmed that she agreed to it. When Dickon then refuses to stand idly by while his father is executed, she outright rejects any alternative course of action. Details, details…
Ha ha ha ! Sure ! 😉
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Very well said! To me, they couldn’t have emphasized it more if they put up a 100-foot neon sign: Dany’s “Kneel or Fry” ultimatum will come back to bite her in the ass. Tyrion – her political advisor*, begged her not to do it, and commiserated with Varys about it afterwards.
Executing POWs seemed to be a war crime or at least frowned upon, even in the fictional world, unless there was some overriding necessity. Slavery, imprisonment, holding for ransom, etc were acceptable options.
You cited many great examples of unnecessary executions that were rationalized (by the killers) as “choices.” In war, I’ve never heard of “commit treason against your side and fight for mine – or I’m gonna kill you” as a civilized tactic for dealing with prisoners.
(PS In addition to the illustrative examples you cited, I couldn’t help but compare the Tarly roast to Polliver and Lommy. After Lommy had said “I yield!” and was no threat with an arrow in his leg; and after the battle was long over, Polliver killed him just because..)
* I’ll have to look for the exact quote: When Tyrion first met Dany, he impressed upon her that there’s a big difference between being able to kill and being able to rule, or something along those lines…
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
(Cont. from above)
Here’s the quote by Tyrion, from S5e8, when he has his first meeting with Dany:
Dany: “And why are you worth meeting? Why should I spend my time listening to you?”
Tyrion: “Because you cannot build a better world on your own. You have no one at your side who understands the land you want to rule. The strengths and weaknesses of the houses that will either join or oppose you.”
Dany: “I will have a very large army and very large dragons.”
Tyrion: “Killing and politics aren’t always the same thing.”
Also, little later in that conversation (when Dany asks Tyrion what she should do with Jorah), Tyrion tells her:
“…And you’re going to need to inspire devotion, a lot of it, if you’re ever going to rule across the Narrow Sea.”
Her supremely ineffective political advisor, you mean? Tyrion’s advice in Season 7 was consistently bad or ineffective.
The Tarlys aren’t POWs, as she sees them, they’re traitors. Executing traitors is standard in this universe.
She also needs to conquer Westeros if she’s going to rule across the Narrow Sea.
Sean C.,
“Her supremely ineffective political advisor, you mean? Tyrion’s advice in Season 7 was consistently bad or ineffective.”
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No. As a military advisor, he sucked, but he was not hired for that job. As a political advisor, his advice has been good. Refraining from rossting the Tarlys was sound advice. She ignored it.
You mean like trying to convince Cersei to join the fight by asking Jon to go get him a wight from beyond the wall? And then asking Jon to lie to Cersei and believing that Cersei is telling the truth about helping them?
Yes. Sound political adviser there.
His advice has led to a major fiasco up North – the wall down, Nk with a dragon and Cersei at their back with the golden company.
Dany would have done much better if she had gotten rid of Tyrion and replaced him with Olenna. She would have kicked Cersei out and secured KL a while back and turned her focus north to help Jon. Instead we are still dealing with Cersei in the final season because of Tyrion’s ineptitude.
Dany’s only victory against the Lannisters was achieved because she did not listen to Tyrion.
Which has already been discussed between them – vis-a-vis the conversation they had on Dany’s return. Where Dany talks about the thousands of men killed in the battle Jon and Sansa waged against the Boltons – We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.
Jon knows that Dany burned all those soldiers to death with her dragons. He is not bothered by it. In fact he is more okay with it than Tyrion who seems more concerned with saving his family than giving Dany good advice.
Jon has no right to complain about how Dany executes traitors. That would make him a hypocrite considering he said or did nothing when his sister fed a man alive to starving dogs.
Yes, Tyrion suggests it and Randyll immediately refuses – and continues to insult Dany. Then Dany looks at Tyrion as if to say ‘Oh, well’. They don’t want to go to the wall, they are not going to bend the knee and they are traitors – the punishment for which is death. Why should she spend any more of her time on these arrogant fools?
Randyll Tarly defied Dany till the last moment. Tyrion tried to give him an out. He refused to take it. Dickon foolishly chose to die with his father – not thinking about his family. John Bradley who plays Sam, thinks it’s no big deal – these guys treated him like shit and he is not going to be too put off about it.
It’s baffling that Dany is getting called out for killing these idiots. And I notice that it’s particularly the Sansa fans who seem to call her out on the Tarly burning – which is hilarious considering their fave fed a man to starving dogs who tore him apart and ate him and likes to punish little children for the treason committed by their fathers.
I think you guys are going to be in for a shock when no one is going to care about the Tarly burning or even bring it up next season. There’s more important things to do than whinge about how two traitors were executed.
Ten Bears,
How has his advice been good? His primary purely political contribution was getting snookered by Cersei. And if he wasn’t hired to be a military strategist, why is he in charge of her military strategy?
Making an example of the Tarlys produced immediate results (everybody else falls in line), and certainly did not cost her anything.
Sean C.,
Did not cost her anything… yet. As some people have pointed out, many believe that choice is going to come back to haunt her.
It has also given some of her trusted advisors good cause to doubt her decision-making. Though nothing bad has come of it yet, it can definitely be seen as a gun that’s been hung.
As for Tyrion, I don’t think his advisement has been too terrible so far. Not the best, but he has given some sound advice and made some political savvy moves. He just has to get used to the new ruler he is advising to fully be able to take advantage of her attributes. He hasn’t advised a ruler in the past that has as much power as Dany (strictly speaking of her military power), so having that as a tool to use is somewhat new to him. He must get used to it. For example, his decision to make peace with the slavers while Dany was away in season 6 was a very good decision. Everything about it made sense from a political standpoint. And then they rebelled and Dany crushed them with ease.
Tyrion just needs to learn to use this to their advantage. In King’s Landing he couldn’t make these political savvy moves and have a backup-plan of sorts if the moves don’t work out. The dynamic was totally different (not to mention he wasn’t just dealing with the Crown’s enemies, but his own enemies that were with him at court). He needs a little time to adjust to his new dynamic with a new ruler. So some… mistakes… could be excused in a sense. He is not quite used to this new dynamic.
Mr Derp,
No, that’s just the ironborn worshipping Cthulhu.
SerNoName,
You know what ? Despite the “optics”, Dany should have nuked the Red Keep on Day 1. Overall, less loss of life. Cersei gone. War over. Futzing around has only resulted in the decimation of her allies – and her enemies still cast her as a foreign invader bringing savages to their shores.
Precisely. I mean Cersei blew up a couple of hundred people with Wildfire and she is still sitting pretty on the throne calling Dany a foreign whore and invader. Apparently the Tarlys don’t care that Cersei massacred her own people, only that Dany is a foreign invader.
Tyrion’s idiotic suggestion after she lost her allies, was that she lay siege to KL which would have also resulted in the suffering and loss of life to the small folk.
She should have followed Olenna tyrell’s advice : You are a dragon. Go be a dragon.
The smallfolk will always suffer when there is war – they suffered when Robb waged war in the Riverlands during the WOT5K and when Stannis/Renly waged war. Thousands of soldiers died when the Starks waged war against the Boltons. War is brutal. But for some reason, only Dany is singled out for criticism. Women with hard power are never looked on at kindly – they are always mad, cruel, an antagonist when they do the same thing that the male characters or the Starks do for which they are appreciated.
Jon hangs a child for mutiny – that’s okay
Sansa feeds a man to his dogs – that’s okay
Arya bakes some men into pies and feeds it to Walder and then poisons to death the whole lot of them – go house STARK!!
The Hound murders a child – that’s okay, he’s witty!! He was only following orders, poor guy.
Jaime attempts to murder a child to cover up his adultery, wages war, ravages the riverlands, continues to support his murderous, maniacal sister on the throne even after she kills and tortures people, murders Ollenna Tyrell – That’s okay, he’s on REDEMPTION ARC, aww, look how cute he is with Brienne!
Dany executes two traitors to death with dragonfire – OMG!! She’s so cruel and mad and wrong and unfit to rule! She’s like Ramsay Bolton! Some people can’t wait for her to die and gift her soldiers, her dragons, her advisers – things she worked hard to get over 6 seasons – to the Starks. They don’t like her, but they like everything she has.
The double standards when it comes to Dany in this fandom is just so glaringly obvious.
SerNoName,
I kinda wish that when Dany condemned the Tarlys to death, that she mentioned it was (in part) as punishment because they had betrayed the Tyrells and supported the wicked usurper Cersei who murdered the heir to Highgarden Loras Tyrell and Queen Margaery.*
All of the other Lannister soldiers had already bowed down after a little vocal urging by Puff the Magic Dragon. It was the “kneel or fry” ultimatum to the Tarlys with the flimsy rationale that “I’m not here to put people in chains” that led some viewers (like me) to question her decision.
Anyway, I think our thoughts are aligned that Dany could’ve averted many of the PR messes and avoided mass casualties if she’d nuked the Red Keep right after her first words in S7: “Shall we begin?”
* and oh, the horror!!! The tragic loss of Lord Mace Tyrell, the Sinatra of the Seven Kingdoms. “We shall never hear his voice again.”
Just don’t get why so many comments on Tyrion betraying Danerys. He has a plan, but it’s not to aid Cersei, surely! He’s working to help Danerys, with or without her knowledge. He knows Cersei and he’s the best one to beat her at her game. Concern over a romance with Jon seems warranted, maybe even jealousy, but the good of the realm will always mean Danerys gaining the throne as that is what Tyrion signed up for. I don’t think he’ll come up short with a solution. He has had little success in battle plans so far, so he’s due to be right.
Sean C.:
First, I would argue that we still have no idea whether or not Tyrion “got snookered by Cersei.” I, for one, think it’s possible that Tyrion was the one who did the snookering, and this time didn’t tell anyone precisely because he doesn’t know how events will unfold. Yes, it would be a big gamble. But not out of the realm of possibility.
Second, yes, everybody else did “fall in line” when Daenerys turned the Tarlys into two crisps (to use ACME’s memorable description). But it’s folly to believe that won’t cost her in the long run. It will mean something that the remnants of a once-sizable group of men, foot soldiers all, took the knee in sheer terror after seeing their comrades and then their commander burned to death. A woman who rules by fear will be just as liable to lose her rulership (and her life) as a man, especially if her father was such a man. And once it becomes known that her dragons aren’t invulnerable, what power does she truly have left? Certainly none over the hearts of those she seeks to rule.
Don’t really know why people are so dismissive of the idea of moving skeletons…after all…we already saw in the show skeletons moving around and rising from the ground…Season 4 finale, anyone?
Comment #200
George,
On the show, there really hasn’t been any setup for crypt skeletons to be reanimated, has there?
How about they reanimate Ghost from whatever doghouse he’s been napping in?
Iv read a lot of theories and one I have not heard anything of is what happens when the night king resurrects all the starks. He opens the stark crypt and it eludes to the idea that he will use the starks to help him win the war against Jon and co. That would b very clever and dramatic.