HBO has released the final pre-viewing photos of the season, focusing on the season 6 finale of Game of Thrones. The tenth episode, which is titled “The Winds of Winter,” promises exciting action in King’s Landing with the trial of Cersei and Loras, in the North with the Starks in the aftermath of the battle, in the Riverlands with Jaime and the Freys, and across the sea with Daenerys and her growing empire. We’ll be checking in with Bran one more time this season, and yes- winter has finally come.
Episode synopsis: “Season Finale. Cersei faces her trial.”
Update 6/23: We’ve added several more photos to the post!
Photos below the cut!
![GOT610_112515_HS__DSC1831[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/GOT610_112515_HS__DSC18311.jpg)
![GOT610_121715_HS__DSC4497[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/GOT610_121715_HS__DSC44971.jpg)
![GOT610_103015_HS__DSC8907[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/GOT610_103015_HS__DSC89071.jpg)
![GOT610_111215_HS__DSC4056[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/GOT610_111215_HS__DSC40561.jpg)
More photos are expected at a later point, hopefully tomorrow, so we’ll keep this post updated as they come in!
Update: here are several more photos from the episode, courtesy of Farfarawaysite!
First we have a couple Bran shots very similar to the ones released yesterday and in advance of the season.
Then we stop in at the Twins with Jaime and Bronn, and Walder himself. The guests don’t look thrilled to be there.
From the trial of Loras Tyrell. Loras is center with the High Sparrow, and Lancel is close by in this first photo.
Tyrion just before or after his photo above with Daenerys
From Empire Online:
Hodor!
Edit: Finally! My watch is ended
HODOR
I’m so worried about Jaime and Walder scene. 🙁
Well, nothing that isn’t already in the trailer.
I can’t believe were already at the finale.
Finally we can end the Sansa debacle…..
Is Ban in the godswood of Winterfell? Can anyone tell?
Suh dude
Burn them all
Sweet Robin!
Oh…
No pics of Brienne and Pod, LSH confirmed!
Florian,
Ha ha, I take it you do not worry for old Walder. Who, in my view, will soon become the late Walder Frey. For good.
RAMSEY COME BACK
Mihnea,
Not if you keep bringing it up in every new post.
I NEED TO KNOW WHAT JAIME AND WALDER ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Could Jamie and the Lannister army be headed north after epp 10? Can’t see the lannisters being very happy with the new stark/vale alliance
Mihnea,
Why debacle??
And boom goes the wildfire
Either walder frey is getting killed this episode or maybe jaime lannister…i hope it’s the former one
Probably get new photos tomorrow. Guarantee that none of them will show anything that isn’t already in the preview.
WHAT ARE YOU HIDING FROM US HBO?????
Mihnea,
What Sansa debacle, I was away for a few days, and comment section apparently had gone nuts.. 🙂
Oh, I see that whatever you mean there obviously are some issues there. So let’s just let it be. ?
Arya Stark revenge mish? Anyone?
The North Remembers 😉
Inga,
there was no snow in winterfell last episode (except jon of course)
I also have a feeling that something will happen to Dany. Maybe Daryo will try to kill her. She has tears in her eyes in the promo and she is shaking her head in disbelief while Tyrion is comforting her.
At least it seems like both Jamie and Bronn leave The Twins unscathed.
Molestown bastard,
Hm, no time I think. I mean, no time to react to that, plus I don’t think he would do it without consulting with Cersei and I don’t think she would send him off to the North now with her trial coming up.
West of moon,
agreed…not ready for the end of this season…
Is someone can tell me if Jaime is banned from King’s landing forever ?
On topic. Looking forward to Bran. Hopefully we see TOJ and extremely excited about Jaime and WF
House Adder,
You left and found the house burning 🙂
Inga,
No. He still has rags on him, if he is in Winterfell Sansa would make him nice suit. He is close to Wall from one or other side.
Hawk,
Maybe it’s the arrival ?
Fastest 10 weeks of my life 🙁
I wonder if the wall falls and if the mother of dragons set sail in the final scene to head west!
lyanna_targaryen,
Marriage proposal, duh 🙂
Wolfish hearts,
haha!! 😉 Congrats!!!
Alen,
Maybe the weirwood just north of the wall?
Hahaha look at Bran chillin’ .
Can’t believe that this great season is almost over 🙁
Hawk,
How can you tell?
Inga,
That would be a nice twist. I must take a note to congratulate you Monday if it is the case!
juliathera,
I wish… But too soon maybe?
Any chance for Arya to drop by the Frey party?
What was the point of Riverrun this season btw? I’ve read the books but can’t remember it having a bigger purpose there either.
Sue the Fury,
Wont happen again. Sorry!
Inga,
I definitely think he’s going to…let’s be safe and say disappoint her. I’ve been expecting it for a while-and this would be a good time.
Also- Run Jaime! Don’t eat or drink and do not talk to Walder Frey. Or…maybe do and realize that this idiot’s greatest crowning achievement that he can’t stop bragging about is slaughtering people who come to his parties. Kill him. Head north.
Why is everyone expecting something will go down at The Twins? Is this based on more than a desire for Walder Frey to die?
Because I don’t think he will. Nor Jaime for that matter.
Yeah. He’s gotta be on the north side of the Wall still – in that photo.
Perhaps he’ll reach Castle Black in this episode, but if so, we’ve seen no hint of it yet. At the least, his scene(s) will start with him still north of the Wall.
Mihnea,
Bran storyline is the best one this year… R+L=J is coming, I can feel it in my bones…
Children playing with wildfire…cccc
Gendry time you started to row back to shore mate!
The Tyrion/Dany scene leaked on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5vHhpaP9H8
monka,
There was snow in the scene where Sansa was meeting Littlefinger (they must have had had a snowfall in the night)… But probably it’s just my wishful thinking. The heart-tree of the Winterfell godswood doesn’t seem to have fir trees nearby.
So glad Cersei finally has a new costume. She’s been wearing the same navy blue outfit the entire season. Previously she had lots of mourning gowns in black but this season she literally wore the same one in every scene. Maybe, post giving birth it was the only comfortable one to wear.
Another off topic thing I noticed. In episode 608 the costume credits in the opening credits were given to Michelle Clapton who was replaced this season with April Ferry (who has been credited in the openings of all other episodes) But I was wondering why was her name brought back and replaced Ferry’s for the opening of 608. Michelle Clapton is now credited in the closing credits as series costume designer for her past work and the costumes still used by the show created by her, So it was odd that this happened. Maybe it was a goof up by the post production team. anyone have insight?
Dutch Maester,
This. This.
I don’t think it will be anything then a cool conversation.
Might be wrong, sure. Won’t mind it either. But I just don’t see it.
Sou,
Arya’s Braavos storyline took place over a very short timeframe, so it is plausible.
Inga,
She’s probably just telling Daario that they can’t be together anymore and that he should stay in Meereen. She’s in the game now and a sellsword isn’t a fit consort for a queen.
Moqorro,
I was scared.
Then saw it’s a joke. Good job.
Look, I got to give it to old Walder. He has like a dozen daughters that he needs to marry off, hopefully by passing on the dowry or whatever they have in GOT world.
It has been a nightmare for dads until something like 60 years ago, so poor old Walder does all he can to lure eligible bachelors… ?
Game of Thrones where nominated for two TCA awards
OUTSTANDING ACHIEVEMENT IN DRAMA
“The Americans,” FX – (2015 Winner in Category)
“Better Call Saul,” AMC
“Game of Thrones,” HBO
“The Leftovers,” HBO
“Mr. Robot,” USA
“UnREAL,” Lifetime
PROGRAM OF THE YEAR
“The Americans,” FX
“Fargo,” FX
“Game of Thrones,” HBO
“Making a Murderer,” Netflix
“Mr. Robot,” USA
“The People v. O.J. Simpson: American Crime Story,” FX
“UnREAL,” Lifetime
A lot of good competition, we have some God like shows. Mr Robot, the leftovers, and the people vs oj.
Do I see snow on the field in the Bronn/Jaime picture?
Hoping to see Ned Patrick Harris, aka Doogie Stark, at the Tower of Joy…can’t wait to see the actress chosen to portray the infamous Leanna.
Can’t believe I’m rooting for Cersei and her evil entourage. Of course, who knew I would ever forgive Theon and that Jaime would become one of my favorites. I still hate her but I hate the High Sparrow just a teensy bit more.
I’m super excited to see what happens with Walder Frey. So glad there have been no leaks and spoilers regarding this story arc and wonder if they are going to have an exciting twist that will blow us away.
Hardhome was like a drive by shooting…totally unexpected. What do they have in store for us Sunday?
I’m so sad this is it for the year, but I’m looking forward to an exciting finale!
So no Arya in the finale right? That’s a first. Maisie isn’t credited in the cast for episode 10 on IMDb. I guess we’ll have to wait until next season to know what happens to her.
I want House Frey,every man,woman and child, going the Way of the Dodo before his eyes and before his death! The RAT COOK curse falling full power on him and joining the disappeared Boltons,Umbers and Karstarks 🙂
lyanna_targaryen,
😉
Speculation for the ep: Loras’s trial is first, he pleads guilty and gets the living life as a penitent punishment Marg mentioned, hence the hair do. He’s freee to go back to Highgarden = win. I don’t think this is really a spoiler but I’ll hide it just in case
No firm ideas on anything else. Don’t know much about how the magic in the show works but
But then why would Jaime ride all the way to the Twins instead of heading back to Kings Landing?
Mihnea,
*bows* Thank you, thank you!
Don’t worry. I did initially but on reflection I think this could illustrate a positive twist. Walder Frey is loathsome. Even those he’s allied with know that. Jaime had contempt for the way the Freys were handling the siege of RR.
Cat knew he was a slime ball too when she tried to negotiate with him. He’s going down I think. How Jaime emerges I haven’t a clue but there is so much potential with Jaime, I think he’s safe.
Should be a good last episode to season 6, hope they can wrap everything up with a neat bow on top XD
Hawk,
Don’t want to scare you but that might be them arriving rather than leaving 🙁
A flayed man none,
Hopefully awesomeness! 😀
This is my most anticipated episode of all time tbh…
And I really glad the season is ending…. GOT is fun, but the fandom can get exhausting, and Im kinda throned out right now
Dutch Maester,
Because there is no reason for him to be alive and there is no reason for him coming back this season, except for being killed.
Oh man, this is gon’ be gud!
Looks like they are heading to the Twins.
No clue, but I don’t think they’d show them travelling back to The Twins. With all of the plot happenings, they’ll probably condense it. They’ve done it before with a few travel scenes. The viewer might be left to logically assume they packed up after Riverrun and headed back to The Twins.
I really hope we see the NK in the finale.
I am expecting good scenes between dany and tyrion and others in meereen.
And also for cersei..
I believe two things may happen this episode ..
1) bran will be seeing TOJ and we will switch straight back to jon in the crypts..
2) varys will be in dorne and will give a speech about coming of daenerys stormborn and why she is the best ( since that speech about YG in books mostly fits with dany anyways )..and we cut straight to dany and tyrion set sailing
Dutch Maester,
Won’t go into book stuff-just show…
Remember Bran’s story of the Rat Cook at the Nightfort before Sam and Gilly ran into them?
It was not for murder that the gods cursed him, nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive.
Guest rite is a big deal and Walder specifically fed Robb and Cat bread and salt as soon as they arrived for the wedding. This means they can take off their swords and relax because they’re among friends. A person who violates this is right up there with king and kinslayer.
Plus the Freys are nasty bits of work that no one wants for allies. And Walder and his sons mentioned the Red Wedding every time they were on screen this season. I think it’s a clue. 🙂
Sue the Fury,
EXACTLY!
Don’t do it Davos, you leave Melisandre alone!
Alen,
Edmure. Thoros. Beric. Benjen.
Perhaps he, like the ones above, has a part to play and they wish to re-introduce him now?
I might be wrong, of course. But…why would Jaime kill Walder? Why would Walder kill Jaime? I can’t find a plausible answer to those questions and no, Arya’s not arriving at The Twins this season.
Im beyond excited that Bran is up on a horse!! Tho I think the special saddle Tyrion made for him might be a bit small now…
Oh I so want Frey to die; hopefully at the hands of Arya!
monka,
That’s such a small amount of snow and whorefrost, easily could happen in a matter of hours. Winter is coming afterall
AlexG,
well,maybe not the children 🙁
Maybe Edmure told Jaime to kill Walder in exchange of RR surrender.
Hawk,
Ah that’s good. I love spoilers because I want to be mentally prepared for bad things happening to my faves. If you were as massive Jaime and/or Bronn fan I wouldn’t want you to be lulled into a false sense of security. Unless you like horrible surprises of course, in which case I can exclusively reveal that nothing bad ever happens again and everyone lives happily ever after, honestly! 😉
OH shit Cersei is wearing BLACK. She’s going full Aerys.
I wonder what her escape plan is?
GET HYPE!
Bran!! Yay!! I can’t wait to find out if he makes it south of the Wall or if Benjen tells him since he’s marked he can’t go through without severe consequences. But then if that were the case why would he have escorted him all the way there? I do think that’s the weirwood where Jon & Sam said their NW vows. I’m so excited for Bran’s and Jon’s stories in the season finale. And Arya. 🙂
I’m so sad that this is the last Wednesday of the year where we’ll get pre-viewing photos. 🙁 It’s going to be a long wait for next season.
Anya,
They often leave out pics of some characters, Arya is most likely in it. I’m sure everyone will get an appearance no matter how small.
Except Gendry.
Waiting to see if
Oh man … it’s been such a great season, I’m not ready for it to end. Now we’ll spend the next couple of weeks reading all the post-mortem articles and reviews, season and episode rankings etc. … and then the GoT buzz will slowly wind down … EXCEPT for us lunatics, who will be jumping right into season 7 production at the end of July!!
Our season 6 watch ends, and our season 7 watch begins!!
Dutch Maester,
There is no reason for Jamie and Walder to kill each other.
I love spoilers, too! It gets me so hyped for an episode. I still get emotional when the episode airs, but I love being able to look at all of the subtle things, the way scenes are shot, and the locations while not freaking out. XD
INTERVENTION! INTERVENTION!
Dutch Maester,
Why are you saying that
Maybe Walder’ll congratulate Jaime on punching his son??
I think it’ll be basically Walder Fey talking, drinking lot and mocking his new wive and Jaime has to listen to it, and Jaime’ll be with his thoughts in Kingslanding.
Or Walder’ll explian the stupid hats, who all Freys are wearing.
All the good stuff! Damn them!!!!
Please “Show Gods”, let Arya teleport there and kill a Frey or ten!
Florian,
Why? He’ll survive. Check the contract negotiations story
I don’t know if I can handle an other off season…… 🙁
Also Bran looks relaxed as hell.
People have been saying exactly this for the last 3 seasons. “This is the last chance for LSH!” “They have to do it this episode!”
Then it doesn’t happen.
It’s time to finally face it –
Damn, lost the bet. My bet was Rick Rolled.
grimezzzzzx,
Because
Florian,
don´t worry,
EW just posted that 3 more photos that were earlier announced,wont be coming after all 🙁 Too spoilery,maybe ? Anyways,I am sure more info will be posted before the weekend.
I can’t believe it’s finale already…Oh man!
Dutch Maester,
Arya will be the Rat Cook at the Frey dinner party, I am willing to bet all my assets.
Give me that Tower of Joy vision!!
You’re right about that but in the preview for the season finale, there is snow as the white raven approaches WF and when Sansa & Littlefinger are in the Godswood. While I don’t think Bran is in WF in the above pic, there is definitely fresh snow in Winterfell in 6×10. I’m sure WF is going to look gorgeous covered in snow; that muddy mess of the last few episodes was not aesthetically pleasing.
Rich Stark,
No, it was a misunderstanding, a typo. I got the same email from HBO. There are only six photos coming from them today.
Speaking of costumes is that even black dany wears ..iam not sure it looks something like dark blue..
Three days after I still can’t get past that comment…lol..
Regardless of the color the dress looks good on her ..
Another thing iam so glad and will be relieved is that they can’t bring mad king again in dany’s story..for once tyrion as said everything about mad king and secondly cersei will take care of this issue in KL
They have milked this mad king enough so lets move on.
Cersei wearing black. Does this mean Tommen will die? One can hope.
QueenofThrones,
Her plan is simple- she loves smell of Wildfire in the morning.
Shame that this season went by so fast.
Violencersei,
They talking about his son Merret and his ass being stamped by Kingswood Brotherhood.
Actually I would like to find out the rationale behind those hats, now that I think of it.
Lulus Mum,
In the promo, we saw Tommen all dressed up for the trial, Cersei can request that her son not be present while she is being judged. I think the High Sparrow will allow that, either because (i) The king being present while his mother is getting judged may affect the judgment of the seven septons. (ii) Given the nature of Cersei’s crimes (infidelity, regicide etc), not allowing her son to be present will be a kindness, whether that son is a king or a peasant.
Someone should do us a solid and release them!
Vyse,
I have more respect for trolling than that! Hope, I didn’t annoy too much.
Sou,
They aren’t part of armor – even the female Freys were wearing those in Red Wedding. Probably as a uniform to help the Freys to distinguish their kin from the guests when they organize dinnertime massacres.
HelloThere,
I’m with ya. This show is my favorite thing and I adore it (it has its flaws yet it’s still pretty good) but sometimes there’s just so much fucking negativity relating people expecting fan theories to happen and also book purists saying D&D have ruined everything and people with impossible expectations about the show. This site is one of he few where one can have a respectful conversation about difference of opinions about the show and not just spat out things like “Fuck Daenerys” “The show is shit now” and so forth.
About the photos; that shot of Cersei is MARVELOUS.
DanDampspear,
Oh man. That was a story with spoiler alerts all over. ?
I have a feeling that
Sure, but it would take a kind person to do kindness…
Cersei is a villain I love to hate. Lena just makes that character enjoyable to watch. I cannot wait to see what happens! Looks like a lot of stuff is goin’ down!
Frokkie,
Definitely. Personally, I would love someone to just come upon him in the finale. Maybe he went back to the Inn where Hot Pie works and is making swords and horseshoes in the back or something.
Or maybe he rowed to Oldtown.
Our team really needs a good blacksmith who can work with-if not create-Valyrian steel. 🙂 Plus Arya is coming back to Westeros. It’s time for the only person whose story hasn’t been addressed to show up.
Or I’ll have to wait for Season 7…
Not that it means anything but last time I looked at IMDB this episode had basically everyone listed in the cast except for Sam, Gilly, and Pod…and of course Gendry.
Sue the Fury,
Sorry about that.
Cersei’s costume looks so much similar to what tywin used to wear..
And that shot of her is wonderful
I’m rooting for Arya to show up in the riverlands, kill a Frey or two and Jamie recognizes her, then escorts her to Winterfell.
What are the chance we have a QITN or a KITN?
I’ll give 60/40 for Queen.
I am prepared to be pissed off if Jaime
BunBunStark,
I think it was lightly snowing behind Sansa when she was saying her fond goodbyes to Ramsay? Just tried to check on Youtube but the picture’s too dark to tell ?
dragonbringer,
I know, right? Since Miguel Sapochnik directed it I expect a really big episode from what we’ve seen him do and also some sweet, sweet cinematography
I’m very curious what Dany and Tyrion are talking about. They seem dejected. From the trailer, Tyrion says, “You’re in the great game now, and the great game is terrifying.” What could happen so quickly after the triumphs of the last episode? Theory:
Is Cersei wearing the Hand of the King suit?
If Jon and Sansa reconcile I imagine that he would defer to her if she wants it.
People have been discussing Bran coming to WF heart tree this episode in order to witness ToJ. In that case, I’d think Sansa would defer to his claim! I’m rather hoping that Jon – Bran – Sansa reunite and Jon’s true birthright is known before any one is declared heir to WF.
Anyway are we still doing King / Queen vs Lord / Lady? I was under the impression that Robb’s secessionist movement died with him.
Wolfish hearts,
Congrats!
Mihnea,
KITN, that is the way for Sansa to outplay LF, and winter has come, they need Winter king.
Mihnea,
Queen 100%
But im not sure LOL
Run Jaime run, only 2 things can possibly come from this:
1: Red Wedding 2
2: You have to marry one of his daughters
Lulus Mum,
It was snowing.
Can someone finally serve me up some Frey Pie?
Mawk,
I know, I’m talking about the fact that Arya is the only main character who’s not listed in the cast for next episode, not about the pics. I really think they won’t show her until next season, why would the whole cast be credited except for Maisie then? It makes sense though, she said herself that Arya wouldn’t appear much this season.
aabe,
Mmm could well be, I like your thinking. If she, or whoever does it on her behalf, gets rather over excited with the…er…dosage, Tommen’ll need to take an urgent holiday a long way away. Oh Tommen I just remembered I left my car keys in Casterly Rock, could you pop over and get them for me? That sort of thing 😀
Anya,
What if Arya is wearing the face?
Okay so
We are confirmed to see:
North – J/S, S/LF, J/D/M, (hopeful for another Jon scene. Yes. I am selfish)
Bran and Co
King Landing
Dany and Co, talking then sailing off
The Twins
I don’t think we will see:
Arya 🙁
Hound and BWOB
Dorne
Euron
Sam and Co
Edit: I used to think the wall will fall, but that will be next season
So, the stories we have confirmed will be meaty. Yay!
(spoiler free speculation so do not confirm or repudiate anything using spoiler knowledge) thank you lol
Alan the Tall,
Yes in Miguel we trust..
Sword of the Morning,
Its just pre match jitters and nervousness that daenerys will be feeling with regards to finally moving towards to wesreros..the one thing she wanted her whole life ..that’s going to give anyone some fear..
And to be frank we need that kind of a scene with dany
Hmm… I think Littlefinger wouldn’t mind at all if Sansa was no longer heir to WF. He can still marry her and it’s less complicated. And he’d still have influence over the North vis-a-vis Jon and Sansa’s relationship.
Bran’s the real wild card though. Maybe he’ll say “I’m not Bran Stark anymore – I am the one who sees with a thousand eyes, and… two” 🙂
Maybe, Walder doesn’t strike me as being a kind-hearted dad, he’ll probably joke about how he only hit his son with a stick whereas Jaime used a metal hand…
dragonbringer,
That’s when Tyrion will say Youre in the great game now,.,. blblba
While everyone is fearing for Jamie ..
I have a feeling that brienne is going to die
Will we find out what happened to Lord Karstark?
I am dying to know what Jon will do with Melly and Davos.
YES BRAN!!!!!!
I have absolutely no idea on what to expect for the Riverlands. Will Arya show up? Will there be a massacre at the Twins (and who will kill who?), and will Brienne and the Hound play a role in the upcoming episode?
So many questions… What do you guys think?
Not at all, was just betting on what the video would be. 🙂
Cersei’s costume is glorious
Can’t wait to see her wrath in full force… Shes been bottling it up all season….
So we finaly saw Sam and Gilly in only two episodes this season.
I really loved the familly reunion scene.
dragonbringer,
where why and how?
Dee Stark,
Exactly he will be the coach who gives the pep talk to cheer her up. .
Mihnea,
Dee Stark,
I more or less agree, but I do think that we will see Arya arriving to Westeros or something. The reverse scene of when she arrived to Braavos.
House Adder,
So, regardless of Arya’s FM skill level, when she says, “Arya of House Stark” doesn’t that mean she’s not going to be “no one”?
EDIT Not defending the IMDB list just curious about Arya’s willingness to use a face going forward.
Also, any thoughts on the lack of (casting spoiler)
Mihnea,
Kit in the North!
Is The Inn at the Crossroads near the Twins? Maybe Hot Pie and an old friend of his might be in the Frey Kitchens.
I just realized …
This is the last episode in the history of GOT where plot armor exists…
The end game starts next season
House Adder,
Cool,* thanks. Wasn’t my dodgy eyes then! 😀
On a side note, every time I see KITN I immediately think Kit N, has he changed his surname to Narington or something? Mind you, when I see Deepwood Motte I automatically assume it’s Depeche Mode. Every. Single. Time. The last record I heard of their’s was about 20 years ago so it’s not like their name crosses my mind on a regular basis.
* literally 😉
Florian,
Me too. I would love to see them again but I don’t think there is time.
OMG I want a wildfire scene in Kings Landing and then SNOW STARTS FALLING! Bam, Cersei, all your revenge is pointless in the end.
Btw, speaking of snow falling, I’ve thought this over and over, but I wonder if Mel will actually claim in the Davos/Jon scene that she got TPTWP wrong BUT she was right in burning Shireen to save TPTWP’s army. Shireen still had king’s blood – and Jon’s army still beat the weather.
And then the second the battle ended, even in the scene in the courtyard taking away Rickon’s battle, the snow started to fall. And by the time we see the preview scenes, it’s clear snow and Winter is there.
Gonna go ahead and say our Melly did actually save Jon’s army, but made an oopsie with whose army she was saving.
I’m sticking to my theory that Brienne and Pod will meet up with the Brotherhood and the Hound on their way North.
And that Jorah will show up at the Citadel at the same moment as Sam…
I really feel like we could see almost everyone this episode (even Dorne if Varys goes there).
For me the wildest cards this finale will be Arya and Euron !
I was wondering the same thing. Dany looks worried in that scene even though they just beat the Masters/Harpies.
Dee Stark,
Iam not sure but can they have Sandor do that ..I don’t think so.we have to see.
But I just have this feeling
dragonbringer,
Yeah, we need to see Dany go through some emotions; it’s the thing she’s been expecting to do her whole life and to be scared will show that she’s not just a ruthless, cold-hearted conqueror. That’s the reason I loved her scene with Yara, Dany showed excitement and and got to relate to someone; and she wasn’t just on conqueror mode.
Bran be like: “Draw me like one of your Dornish boys Meera..” lol
How much time has passed between episodes 9 and 10 for it to be snowing heavily now?
Sou,
arya arriving in bravos was a season premiere thing,
s o if anything she will be getting on a ship to westeros
I wonder if Melisandre is going to be executed by Davos…
I hope not. Her character is interesting, and I think there’s much more stuff for her to do.
Jack Bauer 24,
Here in Ottawa, Canada. It can be sunny in the AM, snow storm within an hour. lol
House Adder,
It’s possible but I think she would take the face off at some point like she did with Meryn Trant, she wouldn’t wear it the whole time.
They submitted the finale for costumes and it already shows why. Cersei and Tommens new costumes look great.
Finally Dany gets a comfy outfit.
HunterMac87,
We were all thinking it
Mihnea,
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Adding these to the collection:
“They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. “M’lord, I beg you—”
“Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.” Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”
HunterMac87,
LMAO
I think things are going to go badly for old Walder. Why? Maybe Jaime is just sick of the hole lot. Maybe a desire for some justice for Catelyn Stark. However my vote is…
Jaime promised Bronn a big castle…and a Lannister always pays his debts.
If all is tied up nicely this could be the best season finale to date. Cersei is going to lose it, and I can’t wait to see how it unfolds. As for Arya reaching the Twins, everything we’ve predicted with regards to her storyline turned out to be completely the opposite. So I will go with a simple shot of her on a ship back to Westeros, however non-climactic and dull that is.
LF and Sansa scenes are amongst my favourites, but if he asks for her hand in marriage, bahhh!!
Bran and whatever he’ll be doing/uncovering will be up there for me this episode. I need my NK fix!
Cannot believe we are almost at the end of the road.
Pigeon,
its gorgeous!
“When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.”
Winter is Coming.
Arya is headed to Westeros. Bran is headed south. Jon and Sansa are in Winterfell.
Arkash,
I’m sticking to my theory that Brienne and Pod will meet up with the Brotherhood and the Hound on their way North.
The Twins is on the way north…
Can’t believe in 4 days GoT will be gone until next year. With it being a shortened Season 7 it could be even longer until the premiere. Maybe they’ll premiere later than April.
I actually think we’ll see all of those lol. Here’s how I could see it breaking out time-wise, bearing in mind a 69 minute total.
North – J/S, S/LF, J/D/M – 12 mins (including Brienne in this – just guessing)
Bran and Co – 9 mins
King Landing – 15 mins
Dany and Co, talking then sailing off – 8 mins
The Twins – 6 mins
Arya – 6 mins
Hound and BWOB – maybe not included, maybe mixed with Arya
Dorne – 3 mins
Euron – 3 mins
Sam and Co – 6 mins
The finale already. Excited and sad at the same time.
I think Arya will be arriving next season. The
moment might be one hell of a season opener
I have a question? Perhaps someone can answer. Is there any reason to believe that Bran can’t have children? Does waist down disfunction mean you can’t have sex/ make babies I ask because I honestly don’t know and Sansa seemed to completely dismiss Bran as potential heir when talking about rickon last episode. Please do not take offense I’m just asking.
Also agree with those of you predicting Jon will be KotN. He’ll be legitimised this episode, and Sansa will support his claim. I can’t see it going any other way given the revelation we hope to be getting this episode.
Season 4 finale had Arya on a ship, I don’t think they’ll do it again. She already booked passage, so its been established already.
Dee Stark,
Sam will be in the finale, he has a scene with a maester i think, about the valyrian steel sword he stole and find out why it kills White Walkers. And Arya has to be in the finale, no way she can miss out on it.
Connor,
Is that a spoiler? Cause I asked for no spoiler confirmation LOL
I think we will get Dorne in the season finale.
Nadia,
In my mind, I always think of Shireen’s sacrifice as a way to pay for Jon’s life. Completely unintended on Mel’s part but it follows that only death can pay for life. I gather that Mel prayed for R’llhor to help Azor Ahai only Stannis was not AA. Granted, this doesn’t prove Jon is but just a thought.
That ship has long since sailed I’m afraid.
Connor,
Your avatar is so pretty.
Dee Stark,
Oh shit, so sorry.
Some people were speculating that the three trumpet blasts Davos heard while looking at Shireen’s pyre was from the Wall, and indicates White-Walkers. Could it be, instead, the Vale troops on their way to Winterfell. I don’t know if trumpets from the Wall can be heard that far south.
Same. For it to only be in the premiere would be strange.
I think KL could have upwards of 20 minutes with the trial(s), the little birds stuff, and any other pre/post trial scenes.
Connor,
ugh. lol
House Adder,
BTW love your user name 🙂 Big fan of that show
But if there is that revelation (I assume you mean RLJ) how would that make Jon King in the North – he’s not even Ned’s son in that case? Doesn’t it make him King of Westeros instead?
In which case Sansa would still be Lady of Winterfell. Maybe Sansa will kneel to Jon as the True King of Westeros. Making her the first to pledge to the new dragons… 🙂
The Dothraki and Unsullied begin an all out battle in Mereen. They are unable to keep peace among the different cultures. Daario tells Dany that he and his men, The Second Sons, must leave the city. Tyrion strategizes a solution.
Brienne and Pod have been captured by the late Walder Frey unbeknownst to Jaime. Jaime arrives to discuss the details of their arrangement for Riverrun. Jaime demands the prisoners released (if they haven’t already been killed). This is enough for Jaime to want to kill Walder.
Petyr Baelish divulges incomplete information to Sansa regarding his plans for the Vale. He likely fails to mention what he intends for Winterfell. Sansa begins to realize that the real concern they should be addressing (winter coming) isn’t an agenda item for littlefinger. One is about to betray the other.
Varys meets Olenna in Dorne to discuss with the Sandsnakes the possible options for ousting our enemies (the Lannisters). Varys presents a compelling case for Danaerys. I can’t imagine the Sandsnakes being convinced. Yet they agree to be the landing point for Dany’s Dothraki hordes.
Cersai awaits her trial. Blows the Sept of Baelor to smithereens. Inside were the High Sparrow, Lancel and Loras. Tommen trapped inside on one of the highest floors of the building or back at the Red Keep elects to either jump to safety or commit suicide because of his inner turmoil. Margaery will have some role in this. My guess is suicide.
Qyburn’s little birds
Bran has the vision of the Tower of Joy which is the least difficult of all predictions to make. Yes, Lyanna gives birth to Jon before dying in labor. Meanwhile, in Winterfell Jon has growing concerns of Westeros’ ability to defeat the whitewalkers. Cue, intense convo with Sansa or Davos or Melisandre.
The Hound kills Beric Dondarrion for good, but not before Lady Stoneheart gets a shout out (appearance?). And lastly I’m hoping *Arya kills Thoros of Myr or whatever other Brotherhood members she must to help the Hound survive. At that point they’ll call it even. A girl is home. Cut season.
In the preview Walden is toasting to the Frey and Lannisters uniting. A marriage? Maybe the high sparrow convinced Tommen the dweeb to marry off his uncle to keep him out of the capital and away from Cersei? Walder looked very happy and I imagine a marriage into the Lannister family would do that.
Mihnea,
KitN and you know why I said it. Otherwise how would Jon’s story progress? Sansa’s highest point this season was to kill Ramsay and exact her revenge, being more proactive along the way. It was more of her war than Jon’s. Much like White Walkers is more of his story than hers.
But Jon would basically stall, dude went from Night’s Watch, pushed by his sister going to war and then what sitting in the corner? He knows about White Walkers more than anyone and they need to be prepared, Sansa doesn’t know about them much like Northerners. Sansa is about to take down LF and her being Queen would only cement his victory. Jon being KitN with her support would make for interesting dynamics and screw with his plans.
But tbh wouldn’t be surprised if we’ll end up with Queen in the North will all the thing women taking charge theme going on. It would fit but Jon being KitN with Sansa’s blessing would screw LF big time.
Dee Stark,
Well, it’s not THAT big of a spoiler is it?
Laura,
interesting if you are right
I would love to see Arya, but I feel like if we do it will be getting on a ship or something
Nice.
Mihnea,
King-no doubt in my mind… King of the Free Folk, King of Winter, King in the North
Secret bonus-king’s blood. 😉
Nadia,
Yes!! Love this.
Connor,
its pretty big 🙂 I wasn’t expecting to see him and now I know what he will be doing
all good.
Will they touch on Rickon’s burial do you think? It’s a bit tinfoil but [ spoiler ] I wonder if something could be found in the crypt that reveals R+L=J though I think that’s more likely to be shown via Bran having a flashback. [ / spoiler]
If Tommen dies who takes the crown? Is there any precedent for the mother of the dead king to act as regent — or queen?
Will there just be a power vacuum and chaos?
I fell like Cersei needs to take power somehow but I don’t know how that would happen… full Lannister takeover ( minus Kevan who will most certainly die)???
If she’s in a room full of people and it’s a covert poisoning of only select individuals it would be a wise choice not to reveal herself the killer and certainly not as Arya Stark. She could have a one second reveal after leaving the castle or filmed in a way that the viewer knows it’s her without seeing Arya’s face (hands mixing a poison and then putting it in something)
Friend of Fire,
Why would anyone take offence?
No, it does not function, unfortunately. Paralyzed. Unless you have modern medicine.
Dame of Mercia,
it might be more of showing Jon in the crypt and then cutting to bran… very vague but clear connection for the die hard over analyzing person like me.
Dee Stark,
We saw her on a ship going to Braavos in season 4 finale. Not that there’s a rule about repetition or anything 🙂 But I hope-with all this fast travel-she’ll already be in there. Using her skills.
I don’t think that’s actually confirmed though. I think it would be odd if we only had those 2 episodes of Sam this season. He should be in the finale.
What if Jaime is simply at the twins to get a letter about what happens in KL? I mean it’s kind of compressing time to a ridiculous degree but maybe it could work if the KL scenes wrap up by halfway through, and Jaime getting the letter about what Cersei has done happens as a late scene…?
Fellow watchers, please fill me up with theories … On how little finger the creep Bailish will die.. If that is ever possible. Or atleast his downfall. Pleaseeeee
People, COVER YOUR SPOILERS.
I know it feels like every other person has read the leaks now, but please stop discussing it like it’s all common knowledge and also not a big deal when you reveal something as fact for people. It’s super rude and thoughtless.
Dee Stark,
Queen of positivity indeed!
Clob,
Who can recognize Arya’s real face at this point? 1) Brienne 2) Sandor 3) BwoB
But none of the Freys. Jaime prob not. Edmure no. She’s essentially already in disguise.
RG,
I hooopppppeee
Khaleesi,
Unfortunately, I feel like we wont be getting LFs demise this Sunday. I was so so so so hoping that – its GOT , we wont be cheering for two episodes in a row Hahaha
Sou,
And “the wolves will come again.” Finally!
tiny direwolf,
I don’t know who could take the crown if/when Tommen dies but it will not matter. KL will be thrown into complete chaos once Cersei starts playing with matches. And it will be a nice precursor to Dany’s return to Westeros.
Dee Stark,
Or the other way around. Bran/TOJ and then Jon takes Rickon’s body to WF crypts and kind of glances at Lyanna’s?
I think it was so telling that they’ve 1) had LF/Sansa reference the story down in the crypt and 2) had Jon mention taking Rickon to the crypts.
I AM HYPE
Tycho Nestoris,
me? thank you! 🙂
Tycho Nestoris,
Jaime absolutely would recognize Arya?! He saw her quite a decent amount and the Stark girls have been part of his consciousness for quite a while.
Anya,
I wonder if the face she uses will be Lady Crane.
Yes. It’s on the Kingsroad between KL and WF. It’s literally on the crossroads and has a road to the Twins.
Nadia,
I AM SO HYPE FOR MY MAIN MAN JON I LOVE YOU
Regarding Jaime headed north. Yes, Northeast from Riverrun to the Twins – ie the pic is PRIOR to the celebration with the Freys. I can’t see Jaime headed further north from there given that he’s completely dedicated to returning to Cersei from comments earlier this season AND Cersei’s current predicament of NOT having the Mountain for a Trial by Combat. Cersei’s in no position to be ordering Jaime to go anywhere.
But guys, how will this revelation be known to Jon? I mean it will be Bran who finds out. And I don’t think Bran will cross the Wall and arrive to Winterfell so soon.
BunBunStark,
Nice stills, but nothing new we haven’t already seen from the trailer.
I’d like to check 3 names off my list. Joffrey, Check. Ramsey, Check. Cersi–would love to see her finished and killed off. By Arya, that would be so welcome and sweet. Probably will not happen, of course.
Check!
Dee Stark,
No not this week, but I just want to hear theories.. On how he will go at the end. I want to be As satisfied as I’m with Ramsey’s death.. When it finally happens. I’m done with his pedophile, slimey, creepy,smug smile. He killed Ned ( still sobbing), tried to woo cat basically on his remains.. And really ? He loves Sansa because she looks like her mother??? Yikes!! Most of my friends like him.. But I want him dead.. I wish bran finds out in a vision and sends and r-mail to Sansa
Tycho Nestoris,
She doesn’t need to be no one to wear the face, like she had done last season in episode 10.
Lulus Mum,
You are welcome.
Every time I see Kit’s surname I read it as Hairington. 🙂
Jack Bauer 24,
Not if they want to be within Emmy consideration for Season 7.
monka,
But there isn’t much snow on the ground in this picture. So who knows? We’ll have to wait until Sunday. 🙂
Yes, there was. When Sansa “released the hounds” on Ramsay, it was snowing.
Friend of Fire,
No offense taken, its a good question. Depends on the amount of damage done to the spine, and where it is. It is possible he can. But I dunno, that fall was pretty bad….Nowadays there are things that can be done…..but back then, luck of the draw.
here’s an article about the subject for those who are interested
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachelle-friedman/misconceptions-about-paralysis_b_4644588.html
There are paraplegics who can still father children. Whether that’s the case with Bran, I’ve no idea. In the world of GOT its natural they would assume he couldn’t though.
Dee Stark,
I AM BECOME HYPE THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS
Also did you listen to the soundtrack?? Winter Has Come – same music as when we see the white raven flying and then the mix of the Stark theme and the GOT opening theme DYINGGGGG
AerynsunX,
In fact, it started snowing essentially the second the battle was over.
I feel like the next time we see Arya will be in Westeros, probably in the Riverlands. I just can’t figure out if she will meet back up with The Hound/BWB, show up at The Twins or a third option.
What if Walder Frey is the one to tell Jaimie about Cersei?
Whether she is found guilty, or not guilty, or burns down the city as many are predicting, it’s likely that the trial should have happened by the time Jaimie reaches the Twins.
Imagine how angry Jaimie would be if he learns Cersei successfully did what he ruined his reputation to stop.
Khaleesi,
Well, I especially want him dead because too often I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HIS ACCENT !!!! (not a native speaker)
Nadia,
Oh no maybe I should skip reading this thread. 🙁 I hate when people do that I am reading from the bottom up thank you for the warning!
Anon,
What about just background music?
Friend of Fire,
I wonder if she thinks that Bran is dead if only Rickon was found.
But she didn’t actually dismiss Bran did she? She was just talking about Rickon and saying that Rickon is way more a threat as a trueborn son than she or Jon were.
Therein lies the $64 million question. While the audience may learn Jon’s parentage, what significance can it have if a) there is no proof and b) only a tiny handful of people learn of it.
GRRM and the show runners have us all stumped there!
Sou,
Maybe the whole Winterfell Crypt theory will be confirmed? That there is something down there hidden in plain sight that will tell Jon the truth?? Could be possible since he’ll probably go down there once Rickon is buried.
ash,
Thanks 🙂
Nadia,
I have been waiting till after the finale to listen! I’m so excited for it!!! It sounds like it will be amazing! OMG!
Anon,
I definitely got the feeling it signaled the Vale troops coming
Or Black Walder or Lothar Frey. I’d love to have her sitting next to Walder during the whole feast and then just slice him to bits. Don’t know quite how she’d pull it off but it would be awesome 🙂
I am SO HYPED to see Bran again–finally. I hope some truth is revealed…..something huge must happen, besides what we’ve all been speculating about.
I’m sorry I’m super delayed on this, but Winds of Winter sounds like the Greyjoy and Dany theme?? That’s not at all what I thought it was going to be!
Omg is Dany going to Westeros GET MORE HYPE
I loved that line about burying Rickon in the crypt “next to my father.” Well, next to your father’s harp, yes. 😛
Dee Stark,
In the meantime you can just listen to Hold the Door and cry a thousand tears
Sou,
Haha! Your’s is a tremendous reason!!! Theories… Any idea? I’m just wondering if obsession for Cat is his raise to power.. Obsession with Sansa might be his downfall??!
Could mean Euron has Dragonbinder after all.
Geralt of Rivia,
I agree. Jon is the king for winter that has come. And LF will need to fall on his back up plan or die.
Laura,
Don’t think harp is there or it would prove anything or Jon is suddenly drop sword and become a melancholic singer. But I think some people will be dissapointed with TOJ and all that.
Dany feels too powerful right now, and you should never feel that way on Game Of Thrones. The “Mad Dog” has fallen, and now the Crow’s Eye will rise.
tiny direwolf,
She is wearing the ring of her dead firstborn son and her daughter necklace all season 6, and in episode 10, she will wear Tommen’s crown.
Anon,
I figured the horns were just to wake up the troops, since first light was breaking behind Davos
House Adder,
As much as I like the sound of Sansa Stark Queen in the North, LF would won and I don’t want that slimey fucker to win. He wants Sansa torule the North and him to be her husband or have power over them. This Ned’s home and he basically throw him to lions. Sansa need to take him down and screw with him and his plans.
I think Jon and Sansa will have convo, then we’ll get LF and Sansa. After that Northerners will gather and Sansa supports Jon. Northerners will declare and Jon will gather North against Walkers which he wanted in the first place.
Nadia,
Is there a song for that one OMG
What’s the link?
Khaleesi,
Sansa will stab him with Valyrian steel dagger he always wears on his hip. the dagger that started the war in Westeros.
ash,
actually that wasn’t a good article, sorry should have read it There is more info online if you are interested
Sou,
By who? Is Jamie and the Lannisters going to clean them out? They are loyal…
Here are some crazy theories…
I was thinking about the LSH character (that people continue to hope shows up in the show)…since in the show many book characters have been omitted and/or the actions done by other characters…well…
What if the LSH part is played by the Blackfish? He died, and his body could have been thrown in the river like Catlyn…to float down until the BwB find the body, and Beric gives up his spark to bring the Blackfish back. He then becomes the bane of all things Frey.
Regarding Jaime and Walder….
What if the Frey’s have Edmure killed behind Jaime’s back? Would that not put Jaime in a position to maybe act on killing Walder? He could then give either Riverrun or the Twins to Bron…cause they made a point of having Bron complain about not getting his castle etc. and a Lanister always pays his debts etc…
Nadia,
It does-it also sounds like sailing.
House Adder,
Accepted. The Mad Queen is born. Can crazy and mean top dragons and dothraki? Stay tuned for Season 7!
hehe
Adhyan Taneja,
I still have no idea why or how this would happen based on the situation they are in. I think both Jamie and Walder are fine, unless Arya climbs into Walder’s bedroom and kills him.
Dee Stark,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQpp4P9BaQ
Towards the end when the weights are stabbing him WAHHH
Lord Karstark led Ramsay’s cavalry into battle. Since the cavalry on both sides was wiped out, I think it’s safe to say that Karstark, like the SmallJon, is dead. IF Karstark somehow survived, he’d be Jon’s prisoner.
Melisandre did have Shireen burned, that’s true. But Stannis and Selyse gave her permission to do it. And Stannis stopped Selyse when she tried to save the girl (even though it was still too late). I think Jon will get the full story from Mel, and when he does, he’ll make Davos see she’s not entirely to blame for Shireen’s death. I do think he’ll banish her from the North, despite Davos’s desire to have Mel executed. Jon still needs a man like Davos. And he’ll try to convince him to look ahead, to the wars to come, not to the past.
Geralt of Rivia,
This… I want this to happen so badly!
Dutch Maester,
They aren’t at the Twins either, thought they were at Riverrun.
LF won’t die.
I don’t believe this for 1 second.
But he will certainly have a aweful day!!
”His joy will turn to ashes in his mouth”
He’ll think he won but then……. Something.
House Adder,
OoT:
One fact that readers and commenters here from the UK might consider for tomorrow:
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/21/the-brexit-could-be-bad-news-for-game-of-thrones/
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/brexit-would-put-game-of-thrones-under-threat-a7095576.html
I just don’t see anything happening to the Frey’s while Jamie Lannister, Bronn and their army are there. Now maybe once the army leaves then the Brotherhood can attack people traveling back to the Twins from Riverrun. But the brotherhood can’t do a damn thing to the people in the castle of Riverrun. Jamie has no cause to kill all the Frey’s even if they kill Edmure. I guess Arya could come back and sneak into Riverrun and kill Walder. But that isn’t the Comeuppance I want. I want the total destruction of the Frey’s gone. Killing one or two is not enough.
Geralt of Rivia,
Yes. I agree. I can see Sansa as a spring queen, but Jon will be KITN for winter, and if Jon is KITN than Sansa is no longer key of the North.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/22/game-thrones-finale-photos
Sadly looks like no more photos this week, confirmed by person in that article.
Guessing to keep it spoiler free as possible.
Does speculating on the possibility of a TOJ reveal require spoiler tags?
Question – the Glovers weren’t at BotB were they?? Please gimme Tim McInnerny for another scene.
I thought that scene made it clear that he didn’t particularly have any love for the Boltons, but that the Starks and their foolishness and selfishness had gotten his people killed. Still, there was a strange honor in the way he talked about the whole thing, and he was totally right about Robb Stark, and I would be so so so thrilled if he came back to pledge to the Starks again. Not because they demanded it, like Sansa demanded it, because now they’ve earned it.
Chris,
There will be more. There always are. He’s referring to the official ones from HBO. We aren’t.
Mihnea,
Kit in the North 🙂
Violencersei,
God, don’t remind them.
Have many friends and even some family in the UK.
But let’s keep politics out of GOT, ironic…
Mihnea,
No, because it’s speculation. It’s not confirmed in the book either. It is 100% speculation. There are many other things that do need to be covered from the books though, like people discussing
I NEED to know the following:
What the hell is Jaime even doing at the Twins? Makes little sense as he was desperate to get back to Cersei unless Brienne/Edmure/BF have pricked his conscience..
Who is that walking out of the great Sept in the trailer shot, is it Loras?
Cannot wait for the Wall to fall on Sunday ?
House Adder,
Fingers crossed.
Sue the Fury,
OK. Thanks Sue!!
ash,
You can’t just use any face. The body and face have to be prepared by the Faceless Men, as we saw last season and this season. And, as Jaqen said in last year’s finale, it must be done right. Otherwise, there are consequences, like Arya being blinded. There is a way to use a “face” correctly. We haven’t seen any evidence that Arya could do that yet.
Mihnea,
I am always confused about this, what is a spoiler and what is a speculation.
So given, that I received permission from our Lady herself.
Will we see TOJ?
If so, how much will we see?
Will it be clear cut or a bit of a tease?
And what will the reveal be?? I wonder..
House Adder,
That is why I asked!
Yes.
I think it’s only going to be known to Jon if the Winterfell heart tree is where Bran has the ToJ vision. Which would be awesome. I don’t see how it wouldn’t be possible for Bran to get there given he’s been offscreen for two episodes and apparently has a horse now. It only took Brienne two episodes to get from The Wall to Riverrun which is much farther.
Anyway my point really was that if Jon finds out RL=J he’s not going to be King in the NORTH – in fact his claim to Winterfell arguably gets worse since it would be through Lyanna rather than Ned.
Honestly I’m more interested in who will be awarded the Dreadfort. Maybe the Wildlings? Or what about Last Hearth? Would be ironic. Those Umber assholes killed Rickon as surely as Ramsey did, all because they hate the Wildlings…
kit_hepburn,
Yup, they did.
Well I also think he was exagerating in that moment with Edmure, too make him surrender the castle.
And hell Cersei herself said she will be fine. He can’t know all the plans flew out the window.
Mihnea,
We have our answer 🙂
We will see young Ned and Lyanna in her bed of blood. Maybe even see the baby and hear Promise me Ned.
QueenofThrones,
Tormund Giantsbane will be proclaimed the Lord of the Last Hearth, he is Giantsbane and he killed SmallJon Umber whose sigil was the Giant.
Or perhaps Jaime Lannister’s words don’t match Jaime Lannister’s actions…because that’s how he rolls.
Do we still expect this to be the episode Kit was refering to when he said they did a whole episode which was Jon Snow’s whole story?
Mihnea,
C-Section hype!
I think they will reveal half of the theory because they only worked at introducing the mother this season.
Connor,
Dee Stark,
I’m not so sure it is a spoiler actually, at least the second part… Was that announced before?
Flayed Potatoes,
Frankly I think it will be revealed that Ned found long lost Lord Karstark.
Violencersei,
Well, if Pod and Lysa are in favor of Remain… surely that will sway some of you Brits!
Joey,
I kind of think that was episode 9, which is really unfortunate because it wasn’t really at all Jon Snow’s story.
Words are wind…
Apollo,
No. Second part is pure speculation. One I don’t think will happen
Soooo……
Dee Stark,
Rejoice Dee. You haven’t been spoiled!!!!!! Well a bit…. Could have been worse… right?
Love it. I hope this happens!
Who gets Dreadfort then? I guess they could just raze it to the ground and split up his lands amongst the surrounding lords.
QueenofThrones,
Does King in the North really have to based on inherited claims though?
We’re not talking about Warden of the North, which in theory has to be a trueborn Stark. Can’t the North declare anyone King or Queen in the North? It only matters who they bend a knee to.
Flayed Potatoes,
Tormund and Davos “Maybe our mistake was following kings Jon Snow is no King”
Lyanna Stark repeating to Jon”House Mormont knows no King but the King in the North whose name is Stark” etc
If i recall there is a Weirwood tree just north of Castle Black, is that where we assume Bran is, and where he has his “final”vision of the year. 😉 Hopefully just prior to crossing the wall and meeting up with, and checking in with Castle Black. Would be great for all of them to see Benjin. Plus if Pink Floyeds album does come crashing down we need to see some of those guys prior.
Though i would love if Bran made it to Winterfell this episode and checked in with the tree prior… but I doubt we will be getting that reunion this year.
Tycho Nestoris,
The casting call for the “Hapless Sly Son” that people thought might be Merrett Frey turned out to be a casting call for the recast version of Lothar Frey, a role which was filled by Daniel Tuite. Though the casting call specified that he would be in three episodes, it looks like he’ll actually be in four, because he’s been in three so far and will be in the finale as well (I don’t actually recall seeing him in “No One”, but he was credited for that episode, in addition to appearing in “Blood of My Blood” and “The Broken Man”).
Great pics. Bran looks like he’s posing for Playgirl. I hope he has a good chunk of action this episode, I was surprised how caught up I was in the greenseeing, Three Eyed Raven thing. I’m hoping TOJ is finally resolved, with the ANSWER given this year, so that next year they can start showing what that will mean to Jon.
Other than that, I can’t bring myself to even venture a theory as to what might happen – I’m hoping for a twist, a POSITIVE twist, but I can’t imagine what that might be. This whole season has left me in a state of mumbling awe; I’ll be in the middle of concentrating on something else and blurt out to myself something like “…But why didn’t the Blackfish go to Sansa? He should’ve gone to Sansa.” or “Ramsay’s gotta die this episode.” *Yay for that one* or “Davos, don’t mess with Mel, she brought Jon back, I’ve forgiven her.” Strange how this whole Game of Thrones world has captivated me, especially this season. I’ll almost be ready for a rest.
BUT … if Arya doesn’t show up to visit Old Walder this episode, I wouldn’t mind seeing her swing by the Inn at the Crossroads next year to check on Hot Pie, even just for a bit. She ought to have a few minutes of peace with an old friend before she starts murdering people in Westeros again.
That’s all I’m saying for now, sigh.
Nadia,
Lyanna Mormont’s letter indicates that KITN is a hereditary title: “House Mormont knows no King but the King in the North whose name is STARK”.
Jon Targaryen doesn’t qualify, as he’s not a Stark.
Anyway Jon being declared King of Westeros with Sansa Stark as his vassal Lady of Winterfell (Or Bran as Lord) wouldn’t change much practically. Everyone would still be following Jon.
Yes, it’s highly likely Brans next exchange will be at the WW grove a few miles north of the Wall. Which means it’s equally likely he’ll pass through the Wall with Benjen and Meera too, given the proximities involved. Brans final scene will be more than simple downloads/flashbacks.
I wish I had Lena’s neck. Like a swan.
QueenofThrones,
Starks, I guess.
QueenofThrones,
Is he legitimate Targaryen? Only this way he has better claim than Daeny. From what we know TOJ could or could not be clear cut answered.
I don’t think Jon will find out this season either way. Before that he’ll probably be crown as KitN. I think it’s not so much about title but it gives him ad Sansa power to unite the North to fight the real enemy. Also others will notice him and give his word greater thought. Daeny will probably unite South.
Jon could be decalred King of Westeros at the end but not before. Even with this Daeny wouldn’t step asie after everything she achieved.
The Rat Cook story is one of the biggest “guns hung” (to please Wimsey) there is in the entire series. There will be Frey comeuppance, and it will be of epic proportions. (I don’t think Jaime will die or enact the Stark’s revenge.)
Nadia,
It was so long ago though. If Jaime rec’g Arya what would he do? That’d be an interesting decision to see play out imo.
I only hope that Littlefinger isn’t going to kill Sansa after that dialogue.
Nadia,
Perhaps, but we are teed up for the 2nd part of the ToJ and so many events from the past would be perfectly juxtaposed with the actions the characters are taking in present time. I can’t help but fantasize that we will see all the key moments of Robert’s Rebellion leading up to Ned’s promise in the end.
Jared,
Thanks! I didn’t realize Lothar was recast.
Dee Stark,
I think we will see Sam, because his story needs more than the abrupt ending with Heartsbane. Also I think there were some filming news about
, as well as S6 soundtrack has a track named Maester. So I think we will see Oldtown, at least interior if not the hightower.
There were also leaks about
I don’t know how reliable these are, but if the leaks are false, then BwB will certainly make an appearance in Jaime’s storyline. People keep telling there is no setup or opportunity for Red Wedding 2.0, and yes we have not heard of any weddings at Twins, but I’m 100% sure that Freys and the Lannisters aren’t the only people who are going to be in the Riverlands story of finale. Something must happen.
It’s not a case of recognition as much as it is remaining anonymous. If she’s seen doing something, killing someone with another face she just escapes and removes the face. If she’s seen as herself she can be identified as ‘that girl’ and tried regardless of who she is. It’s pretty much the whole deal with the FM, anonymous assassinations.
Oh… good theory! I’ve been wondering about Brienne’s story moving forward. Since she has a Valyrian steel sword, it is logical that her end game will be fighting the WWs. While the ruling class plays their games of power, who is king/queen/warden/whatever, the BWB, Hound, perhaps Brienne and a bunch of stragglers will form their own separate group whose goal will be to fight the final battle. Somehow, if Sam with his sword could join them…… perhaps if Jorah goes to Oldtown, meets Sam and gets that sword? 🙂
Clob,
She can only use faces of people who have died right? and faces that are at the house of black and white? So in other words not anyone from westeros that we’ve already seen?
Apollo,
I think it’s Lancel. Loras has the same haircut but different clothes in the promo. The guy in promo has some chains on his shoulder (like the sparrows do). Loras has no chains.
aabe,
Yeah Sam has to finish his mission and find something important on defeating the white walkers. And then he goes straight back to the wall or winterfell I imagine.
and somehow Randyll figures into this.
Yes, and her last words were, I’m going home. I’m hoping that we won’t see her journey or even recognize her when we do see her in Westeros. Until she takes off her face.
I don’t think we know he would have a better claim than Dany, his father was the crowned Prince or the heir, but never King. Danys father was king. But I suppose it could come down to patriarchy over primogeniture. On the other hand, it could come down to dragons and armies.
Though in truth I don’t expect to see either of them on the iron throne.
How long is the finale? Isn’t it over an hour?
In the show the main point of adapting the Riverrrun siege seems to have been to get Jamie out of King’s Landing for…reasons (episode 10 plot reasons.)
Clob,
If Arya takes revenge on the Freys, I think she will want it known that it was her who did it, as a warning to let people know what happens when they break the guest right (or mess with Northerners). Her goodbye to Jaqen suggests she is back on full-Stark mode. Once her operation at Twins is successful, she will not care who is after her. And she can protect herself. In fact, most the Riverlands are already with the Tullys and BwB. No one loves the Freys – not even the Lannisters. And unlike Boltons, Freys do not scare their vassals. People are just going to call is gods’ justice if Freys are massacred. If the Lannisters are caught up in it (Jaime, Bronn and their army), then Cersei will do something, but Cersei is also on Arya’s list. Arya is more likely to do something to provoke/hurt Cersei. (I still think Jaime is the valonqar, though).
At the Twins?
I’m assuming that Arya may have taken a Face from the Hall of Faces (you know, the one that may have been where she deposited the Waif’s face?)
I see this a lot and I can’t quite understand the reasoning. Why would the whole of Westeros declare Jon as the King? Do you think he will set out to conquer the rest of Westeros?
Demon Monkey,
69 minutes.
Looking forward to the Stark banners flying at Winterfell once again on the opening credits… I just hope they burned all the bodies ?
We have no way of knowing, really.
But I incline to think something will happen because their pattern with season finales of late is to stick to scenes that move story arcs along. “Character note” scenes seem to be saved for earlier episodes in seasons.
With as much plot development ground as they have to cover in the finale, it seems odd that they would drag Jaime all the way up to the Twins unless they had a reason for it. If it’s just for his character development, it seems strange to go there. What more could they do with him in this regard that the Siege of Riverrun didn’t accomplish already?
House Adder,
Sorry, I meant more like, if she’s Arya Stark, she’s not going to pretend to be someone else. I am not saying that she can’t physically use a face, just that she’d be opposed to it now that she knows her true identity.
Sou,
They’re not supposed to be, same way it’s been for every other episode.
Other than her drinking from the well with Jaqen to remove the blindness when he says, “if a girl is truly no one then she has nothing to worry about,” and in her last scene when he tells her she finally is no one. Yeah, he may have told her she’s not ready between those two scenes and she did refute the statement and claim her true identity. Her blinding scene on the show I think was confusing on purpose to make it really mystically strange for the viewers. In the books the Kindly Man blinds her with a potion, it wasn’t caused by wearing a face. After her blindness is cured she does begin to use faces from the hall.
I guess what I’m saying here is that I don’t believe GRRM is writing all of this training arc for Arya just to have her completely abandon it, go home and be a normal little girl. I don’t see D&D doing that either. I fully expect to see her use faces even while not being part of the FM and we’ll have to accept that she did fully learn how to do it.
Kay,
The thing is that Jon might be viewed as the best candidate after the war. Due to his deeds in the war. This what I was aiming for and question whether as solo King or as King and Queen.
Theme of his arc his duty vs love. He never wanted to be LC but Sam pushed him and others choose him. KitN could be similiar, King of Westeros too. It’s not about what he wants but what he feels is his duty. Of course depends on if Daeny is alive. She could push him to rule with her or others will. Depends if she is alive.
Either way we got a lot of foreshadowing for him to be a King. Especially in the books, last episode Tormund and Davos talked about Jon not being a King. Which means he’ll likely be one in finale or even later on. He’s King Crow to Wildlings after all.
Demon Monkey,
My understanding is that the Targaryen succession line is as follows: Aerys>Rhaegar>Aegon>Jon if true born. Dany is not in direct succession, not if Jon is proven as true born. If Prince Charles becomes King then William follows and if something happens to him, George takes over and even the little princess would come before William’s brother, Prince Harry. Viserys thought himself king only because he was certain Rhaegar’s children were dead not because he was next in line after Rhaegar.
I am now beginning to think maybe Walder doesnt die. Maybe he and Jaime’ll plot something huge and nasty (no idea what) moving the Freys to be the next big villain for early next season.
With Boltons extinct, Essos out of the picture and their villains (SoH & Masters & Waif etc) gone – as well as KL villains likely dead or less relevant next season – maybe the show is going to need sone more from the “pure nasty” end of the spectrum just for all the stories to stand.
Of course NK may take Joffrey/Ramsay’s place as chief villain – but these little baddies are needed too.
Jaime joining him will mirror Tywin’s early alliance & together thwyre gonna seek to blunt the Starks before thwy grow too strong.
But like some villains like the masters for example…maybe the threat to the North wont be very successful for long
(Though what i wish for is entirely different….Frey Pie and Lannister Sauce – Walder as Nymerias’ lunch & Jaime out of a tower or something…)
Unquestionably partly that – but also as “character note” scenes for Jaime. They have to do something with him, he’s a key major character.
Riverrun really is mostly about Jaime, at least as it is on the show.
OMG OMG OMG
Are we finally going to see adult Lyanna Stark?!?!
Hyppeeeee
Athelstane,
Assuming Frey dies this season, Jaime will prob stick around the riverlands next season?
As a book reader I guess I now know how everyone else feels, I never thought it would be this hard to predict plot lines.
Athelstane,
I think the purpose for his trip to the Riverlands was to get him out KL. To keep him away during the trial. He won’t be able to protect Cersei. He is also save there in case Cersei does go mad and starts a huge firework.
Tycho Nestoris,
She will use the no one skill- face swap- to infiltrate the Twins, and she will infiltrate the Twins because she as Arya Stark wants revenge for her brother and mother.
aabe,
My opinion, but I just don’t see it going down that way. She’s decided that she’s Arya, not No One and does not want to spend her life murdering ‘good people’ because they’re paid to do it. I don’t believe however that she won’t use what she’s learned to get justice for her family by killing the ‘bad people.’ Perhaps she only uses a face one more time ever to go after Walder, but there’s not one single character that wants him dead more than she does and like Sansa with Ramsay, she deserves the kill. She’s the only family that was right there when it happened – watched them kill Grey Wind, watched them parade Robb Wind around on a horse.
Mihnea,
You think this in the finale?
QueenofThrones,
Targaryen or Snow, Jon is a Stark. As much Stark as Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya and Rickon. The only difference is that they get their half from Ned and he gets his half from Lyanna if theory is true. What is in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet . . .
I’m not ready for the season to be over!
Geralt of Rivia,
But what do the rest of Westeros, say the Martells, Tarlys, Tyrells, Greyjoys, Lannisters, know about Jon’s abilities in wars?* Why would they care about him or want him to be King of WESTEROS? His entire life and story have been confined to the North. He was LC and couldn’t appease all factions and got stabbed. Davos, Tormund, and northerners support him and he is an idea candidate to take charge in the North due to his honorableness. But Westeros? I find that talk of his “legitimacy”, “harp-in-the-crypt” (:D) etc. all rely on how he might be the “true” Targaryen heir. But the Targs were dethroned, their King and Heir killed. I am amazed that suddenly the Westerosi will want to embrace a “true”, male Targ as a gift from the gods. Now…. if Jon wants to, and marches south with his northern army, then yes, right of conqueror, why not? Just like Robert Baratheon. Or Aegon Targaryen!
* He was just very badly defeated in the latest battle we saw, and would have died if not for Sansa, LF, and the Vale army.
I can’t wait….I have a feeling this is going to be an excellent finale and in some ways even better than episode 9.
Inga,
At 1:00 you can see a similar curve in the trunk, and the evergreens look like the same ones. I think Bran is *just* north of Castle Black. You’ll have to watch it on Youtube, sorry -_-.
But Jon is not true born even if R+L=J. He would be a Targaryen bastard, rather than a Stark one. Rhaegar was already married to someone else (Elia) at that point.
He could be legitimized theoretically of course, but….
I really hope that Arya doesn’t already turn up in the Riverlands.
Regarding the question of why Daenerys could be so devasted (speculation based on the books upcoming):
Jon doesn’t have a claim to being the King of Westeros.
You gain the throne through inheritance or conquering it in Westerosi history. The Targs were overthrown. That’s it. The Targs no longer have claim to the Iron Throne.
Dany will conquer for the throne. Jon, legitimized or not, is not going to be King of Westeros unless he decides to try and conquer the Iron Throne.
Athelstane,
However Targaryans practised polygamy in the past, so the fact that Rheagar was married to Elia would not have precluded him marrying Lyanna also. Not saying he did, but he might have.
Ginevra,
Manderley!
Arkash,
My guess, Sam bonds with Jorah over the fact that he is Jeor’s son and he tells Sam that Dany is planning to come to Westeros with her dragons, which Sam will realize is good for fight against WWs.
With Brienne and Pod, Jaime and Bronn and Brotherhood all in riverlands area, it seems likely there will be some convergence here. Since Brienne and Pod just interacted with Jaime and Bronn, I think a Brienne/Hound meetup/confrontation is most likely. Given how they demonstrated that BwoB uses hanging as execution, Brienne could get strung up by them, leaving us thinking she is a goner,
. But I could also see Walder Frey’s men capturing her and bringing her to the Twins,
.
George,
perhaps the one she used before when she killed Trant?
I think ending the season with Jon crowned as KITN will be too anti-climatic and uncharacteristic of GOT. There bound to be a twist or a cliff-hanger ending for all storylines this season. IMO, and for the next season:
Kings Landing story will be wrapped
Dorne/Tyrell storyline will be set up
Deny/Greyjoy story will take a new turn
Riverland’s story will be closed
North’s story will end on a twist cliff-hanger
Bran will contribute to North’s storyline and will continue his greenseeing with no resolution
Few filler scenes with Brienne and Sam
And the last scene will be Arya’s new storyline with a twist tied in with one of the sideline stories introduced this season.
One of the major character’s who has not been predicted to die will find his demise in this episode too.
No wall falling this season, IMO.
And I hope none of this is accurate in the end:)
Jacque,
I say Arya and Nymeria have a reunion in the Riverlands!
This could be really bad.
Violencersei,
This is really much ado about nothing.
If Britain leaves, Northern Ireland still exists as a region, it’s not like it goes away. And Britain cannot afford any hit to their economy in that event, including the cash cow that is Game of Thrones. They will 10000000% make it work.
Does anyone know for sure if Fletcher is actually showing up or if he got cut somehow? I’m dying to know. Do spoiler tag it though if anyone has any idea.
By the time any of the leave arrangements take effect, if that even happens, HBO’s GOT will have season 8 already aired.
The finale might be incredible but don’t put your hopes up for so many things. It’s okay to theorize but my advice is don’t think that those theories will happen. 90% of theories for GoT were bashed and rejected by the show. I say just don’t let the HYPE and expectations consume you.
I haven’t read the comments so apologies if I’m the 100th person to make this speculation, but I wonder if Jaime will decide to turncloak it and kill Walder Frey.
Could just be wishful thinking!
Kay,
All of those factions wil get a lot of people killed. They will look up to someone who was doing good things against Walkers. I don’t think it has so much to do with his surname but rather his actions in the war. At the end of the day maybe Daeny wil llive and ask him to rule with her but if not people will look up to someone with potential and there is Jon.
People at the end of the war of dawn will be exhausted to fight and no need to conquer anything. Imagine how much of a chaos white walkers will bring and how many thousands people will die, what millions maybe.
Robert took iron throne by the right of conquest but he build it upon his Targ heritage which is ironic. He hated them but through their blood he justified his claim.
Yes, Jon got beaten because of his emotions. Let’s hope he learns.
Athelstane,
Polygamy was practicided by Targaryens before and Rhaegar was honorable or well honorable person wouldn’t cheat on his wife but he would want Jon to be legitimate. Not dishonor Lyanna. Besides the point is Jon lived his whole life as a bastard and ironic is that he most likely is legitimate and he doesn’t even know about it. One passage in the books say that bastards are not allowed to hurt princes or something like that. It was when Jon wanted to sparring with Joffrey and Joffrey turned out to be bastard. Guess who might be prince.
A not so good sign for expectations for this finale is the fact that this episode was not submitted for neither directing or writing categories at this year’s EMMYs. While it got in for some techs. I am suddenly not feeling very positive.
We have a synopsis for next weeks episode on our tv in Australia. Does anyone want me to post it?
Inga,
In the promo we can hear Daario say (and I’m pretty sure that it’s him), “Are you scared? You should be.”
Yes, I remember Bran telling this. Such an eerie story, cant decide if I want it to happen or not. Dead Freys, YES but THAT way? Iffy. Where is Wimsey lately? Kind of been looking for him to get his take on Ep9. Haven’t seen him but haven’t checked all the threads, either. Hey, Wimsey, you ok? Taking a break?
Pls, do.
I’ll be honest, if D&D go the
, I’ll be disappointed. I know they’ve foreshadowed it heavily, but THEY JUST DID A SCENE LIKE THAT WITH DANY EARLIER THIS SEASON! I’m sorry, but it’s damn lazy writing to basically do the same scene twice with different characters, not to mention the fact that it wasn’t even original the first time it was done: Quentin Tarantino beat D&D to the punch 7 years ago with Inglourious Basterds (which I’m sure was inspired by something else before it as well).
What is important to the story is not that Jon is a Targaryen ( Dany is Targ too ) but he’s TPTWP the one who will defeat the White Walkers, Jon will never sit on the iron throne at the end. That’s not his story, that’s Dany’s. IMO.
Jinx47,
We need to close storylines. ending has to be Daeny and her army leaving for Westeros. That being said Jon being crowned KitN makes sense, Sansa Queen too. Depends on what they’ll went for.
Jinx47,
Perhaps not that much will happen except for Cersei’s trial and some Northern twist and it will all be setup for Season 7. Yeah, the fact that it wasn’t nominated sucks but Hardhome wasn’t nominated and it was the most exciting episode of Season 5; it can still be great but it won’t top The Battle of the Bastards.
Mihnea,
If only!
KissedByFire,
It’s Tyrion.
Well at least all awards pundits are predicting Kit Harrington’s first EMMY nomination this year.
Lol er no. I’m in the UK and I ain’t basing my vote on GOT filming, much as I love it ?
Jinx47,
Aaaaaaand, I don’t know if other people think the same way but I thought Kissed By Fire was one of the strongest episodes of Season 3 and of the entire show but it wasn’t submitted for the Emmy’s neither for writing nor for directing.
If Dany and company leave for Westeros, where does that leave Euron?
Jack Bauer 24,
Still building ships? I mean, a thousand ships aren’t built in a month… But in the end who can tell? Time in this show makes absolutely no sense 😛
I was worried about Jaime; Walder Frey is always very jealous of the richer houses. But I can see he has a plate of food and drink, so guest right should keep him safe. Whew!
Alan the Tall,
I absolutely agree. Specifically Jaime and Brienne bath scene (though the whole episode was great). It is still one of my favorite scenes from the series.
I think I know the fate of Lord Karstark. I noticed him standing next to Sansa, while Jon was punching Ramsay. Was he Littlefinger’s friend in the North? Anyway, that’s interesting.
I don’t think this is a spoiler for the Unsullied so I won’t cover it. In the books Tywin has a sister who is married to a Frey. They haven’t brought the aunt into the show thus far and it’s a bit late in the game to introduce her now but it’s just possible (slim chance I know) that Jaime is at the Twins to visit his aunt.
All I want in 06-10 is to see The Hound eat every fucking chicken in The Twins.
And Benjen score a couple more Coldhands Kills. That’d be cool too.
Jack Bauer 24,
With something up his sleeve? 🙂
But, why would Jon be crowned as KiTN? Sansa is the next in line since Bran is nowhere to be found. I’m also anticipating the ending with Dany finally sailing for Westeros! I hope to see Arya in this episode, too.
Halfman,
What a dirty propoganda! GoT doesn’t need the EU funding I suppose.
Dame of Mercia,
Oooooh. I like this. But don’t think it’ll happen 🙁 I love Gemma Lannister.
Rose,
Yes, please.
Demon Monkey,
69 minutes I think
Arya hasn’t crossed anyone off her list this season. Walder Frey is getting it. Hoping LF get it from Sansa too. She finally gets tired of him send ravens with dick pics. I think there will be some combination of him blabbing to her and revealing some of his atrocities to a third party, maybe Jon, maybe Bran through the weirwood tree. Kingslanding may be a cluster, everyone could die for all I know. I wouldn’t care either. The Lannisters certainly seem to be leaving the Twins. Maybe they have Jaime betray them or something. Which would just add to wtf would they do that and have people freaking out about the plot. I’ll stick with Arya being there. What I’m looking for overall is the characters whose arc seem to be at an end in context of the bigger plot and with the knowledge there are only 13 episodes after this season. Tommen, Margaery, Sparrow, Mountain, LF, Walder Frey, maybe Melisandre…..doubt it. Only thing I expect is a lot of dead characters.
Rose,
Of cause. Post it ASAP.
Rose,
Please do 🙂
As far as I know, polygamy is no longer accepted in Westeros. I’m not familiar with the timeline of Robert’s rebellion. Did Rhaegar’s wife die before him? Is it possible he married Lyanna after he was widowed? That’s the only way I can see that marriage (if it ever occurred) being legit.
Her hair looks really good, too. Finally.
Danny,
I agree. He’s a Stark through and through. As Ned told him, “You may not have my name but you have my blood.”
I would love it if after Bran’s vision, it cuts to Jon in the crypts paying his respects to Ned and Rickon, and the camera not-so-subtly frames him with the statue of Aunt Lyanna behind him. Or he lights the candle the way Sansa did in S5. And then music swells as the audience knows something while Jon Snow still knows nothing.
Arya hasn’t crossed anyone off her list this season. Walder Frey is getting it. Hoping LF get it from Sansa too. She finally gets tired of him send ravens with dick pics. I think there will be some combination of him blabbing to her and revealing some of his atrocities to a third party, maybe Jon, maybe Bran through the weirwood tree. Kingslanding may be a cluster, everyone could die for all I know. I wouldn’t care either. The Lannisters certainly seem to be leaving the Twins. Maybe they have Jaime betray them or something. Which would just add to wtf would they do that and have people freaking out about the plot. I’ll stick with Arya being there. What I’m looking for overall is the characters whose arc seem to be at an end in context of the bigger plot and with the knowledge there are only 13 episodes after this season. Tommen, Margaery, Sparrow, Mountain, LF, Walder Frey, maybe Melisandre…..doubt it. Only thing I expect is a lot of dead characters.
Inga,
I didn’t notice that. When she asks where he is or when Jon is beating him to death?
Jaime at the Twins: could his next move be to march North instead of back to King’s Landing again? His pitstop at the Twins could mean both the celebration of the retake of Riverrun and to cross the river on their way North.
After all, the Starks taking back Winterfell is no different than the Blackfish retaking Riverrun in the eyes of the Lannisters/Iron Throne. This set up another Stark/Lannister conflict with a future Siege of Winterfell at the beginning of Season 7.
HOWEVER, things will change very sudden when the Walkers break through the Wall…
Danny,
You’re talking about being a Stark in spirit, right? I thought you only got to be termed a Stark by birth or marriage. …that is, that you took your father’s name. I can’t recall anyone saying Robb, or Bran, or Arya was a Tully.
Beer Island,
Where Jon is beating Ramsay to death.
Nadia,
If Jon is proclaimed King in The North next episode, they will rebel against the crown again. The Northerners want their independence from the Seven Kingdoms. I believe Jon will want more to remain King in the North than become King of Westeros. Danny should accept their independence as a reward for their efforts during the war against the White Walkers.
The only way I see Jon becoming King of Westeros is if he marries Danny. But Danny and Jon marrying and ruling together is too cheesy for GOT. I prefer the former.
Lord Shephand,
I don’t think the Lannisters would ever go that far North, especially not with winter arriving…and, they’ve got a lot of political problems themselves. Anyway, like you said, when the Walkers come, nobody will be thinking about castles!
Brian,
I know, right? Ugh. Jon might need her again in future too damnit. Anyways I have a feeling this finale will leave me wanting so much more with not much sense of closure.
That’s not Karstark, that’s Littlefinger.
Three Eyed Wookiee,
That would be awesome!!!
It’s not Littlefinger at all, it’s some guy with a red beard and hair (looks like he’s holding a bow and arrow) and it’s not Karstark either. You see him specifically when Jon is punching Ramsay inside Winterfell.
jinx47,
Really? That man was ginger and wore Karstark gown. Going to watch once more.
Whatever you think of the outcome at Winterfell. It doesn’t change the fact that Sansa is a fugitive of the state. She’s still wanted back in KL for the murder of the King. LF has two options. He marries Sansa and sides with the North, or he kills Sansa and seals his future with the South. I believe, that he has plotted with Walder Frey to kill Sansa(if she rejects his proposal). Walder Frey is going to meet with Jaime to tell him of their continued routing of the Starks. Jaime either gets angry with Walder for not keeping the Lannisters in the loop, or he finds out that Cersei knew of the plot and kept it from him. The back of the head you see walking through the archway in the trailer is Jorah Mormont coming back to take command of Dany’s invasion army she is taking to Westeros. She no longer needs an interpreter and leaves Missy, Grey Worm, and Daario to defend Mereen. Daario is not happy with this decision.
Valaquen,
Nice clarification cause I think they were discussing two different shots and that archer (red beard) is def not Karstark.
Valaquen,
Yep. My mistake probably. But he looked rather similar to Karstark all that ginger.
Lord Of Lite,
The one walking through the archway might as well be Theon because of the way he’s walking but it could be Jorah too. I hope it’s Jorah.
I thought it was Lancel?
jinx47,
Shit. I rewatched the preview, it could be him. I don’t know, better wait for the episode to air.
All I want is for Littlefinger to die. IT’S ALL I’VE EVER WANTED.
Oh, definitely that, no question. They needed Cersei isolated. Jaime had to be sent out on another expedition.
But Jaime remains an A list character, so they have to do something with him. The Riverrun sequence from the books was grabbed and made into some more character moments for Jaime. Because the show needs those, too. And honestly, Jaime has been a more interesting character when he’s been separated from Cersei anyway.
My predictions:
Tyrion getting a 3 some with Dany and Yara and finally finishing his honeycomb and jackass joke.
Jon getting named King of the North, killing LF, and Sansa named Lady of Dreadfort.
Cersei going mad, Franken Gregor killing tons of people, all of kings landing up in smoke, Cersei killed by Kevan.
Jamie going rogue, killing the Freys then himself after hearing of Cersei demise.
Arya stowing away on Dany ship wearing the face of a crew member.
Bran finally seeing the end of the tower scene.
The wall crumbling down and white walkers riding giant ice spiders….black screen!
Then boom final view after black screen 10secs….The Hound eating a bucket of KFC
It is Lancel. Eugene Michael Simon posted it on his twitter and instagram.
Yeah, this looks like FP trying to drum up clickbait, honestly (and they’ve been consistently anti-Brexit to boot).
Look, they’re already about to start shooting season 7. Any funding from the EU for S.7 is already in hand or in the pipeline, so that leaves only Season 8 in any question. And it will take at least two years to navigate a British exit from the EU. It’s not like the vote happens tomorrow, and then on Friday Britain is no longer in the EU.
And HBO is going to find a way to get the last season of its big cash cow in the can. They’re not going to let anything get in the way of that. And plenty of places will be happy to find a way to kick in funding or subsidies if it actually becomes necessary.
Bran will eventually make it to Jon and be by his side for the Great War, though I’m not convinced that will happen this season. Until then, Bran may be able to whisper to Jon the same way he whispered to Young Ned. And that might be this season.
All this speculation has me on edge!
What is the theory behind the caught unawares expression LF gives amidst the snowy forest background in the trailer? Correct me if I’m wrong but that scene hasn’t come to fruition yet, right? Will it follow his scene in the Godswood with Sansa? Could it be Brienne about to take him down after Sansa orders him to, this is the optimist in me speaking obvs.
I love that Sansa is by a Weirwood tree btw. Could Bran try communicate with her?
Ugh this is killing mehh!
Thank goodness we’ll be able to finally see it is a wrinkle in the linen and not a slash. And we’ll end the twins theory. And hopefully the pregnant Sansa theory. Although, like her mother, that theory may never die.
jinx47,
Look closely at his attire. He is wearing a cloak. Not something in style for Lancel.
Ultimate jamie redemption this episode? What if Arya infiltrates frey’s and murders walder and then all the freys go to kill her and jaime swore an oath to catelyn to protect her daughters and get them home so he tells his soldiers to kill all the freys thus becoming an oathkeeper while breaking guest right classic jamie duality. Its one of a few scenarios which would neatly tie up all the stories this season. Other option involves brotherhood without banners because they still need to be involved somehow, and it would be great to have the hound save arya or vice versa.
Ginevra,
Even Iwan had to clarify in an interview that Sansa wasn’t pregnant. That theory is ridiculous.
Shaz,
Please stop it i won’t survive until Monday for god’s sake.
crabber’s son,
Can never fully redeem himself from a Stark perspective…he was one of the main triggers to all the Stark misery.
Flayed Potatoes,
It’s really an absurd theory, and the idea the Ramsay would know about it even if she were is also silly, I think his conversations with Roose earlier this season make it quite clear he believes he didn’t impregnate Sansa.
Plus, even though the show’s relationship with logic has become pretty tenuous at times, the idea that a child would survive the jump from the ramparts of Winterfell is crazy.
People don’t understand the kind of physical pain and damage that rape can cause, so they made way too much out of her “I can still feel what he did to me” line.
Feeling pregnant and having physical pain from possible tears, bruising, etc… aren’t remotely similar.
It was clear she meant to impress upon LF how badly she had been abused. It would have been a seriously strange way to say she was pregnant.
Yes, I believe she’ll show up at the Twins. She could be elsewhere, but that would seem the most poignant given her list, and it would set the tone for things to come with Arya.
Geralt of Rivia,
Despite what it looks deep down dany does not want to rule and remember she keeps thinking if only rhaegar’s son was alive he could have ruled and I could step down and let him rule..
After their learning arc’s in AdWD they must end up as jahaerys the conciliator and good queen allysane ….jon on the throne but dany have a say in the when its comes to important things.
News article spoiler and contract-signing spoilers ahead:
When Sophie played “Two Truths and a Lie,” she said:
2. Lady Stoneheart returns.
3. Arya checks three people off her list.
We know 1 is true and 2 is false unless D&D have lost their heads, but how will 3 be true? I believe Walder is likely to die but Cersei is certain to not, which means the Mountain is likely to not. Even if we count the Waif, how will this be three? Do we even trust Sophie?
Halfman,
The question of proof is the biggest one to me. I don’t know why anyone would believe this. Dany certainly wouldn’t without massive amounts of proof, and obviously other factions such as the Lannisters (as well as anyone who doesn’t recognize Targaryen legitimacy) definitely wouldn’t care even if there were proof.
dragonbringer,
Jon will rule because in the entire series he is the person who least wants to rule. Haha
Seems like she was either mistaken, or full of carp.
Ginevra,
GET HYPE
Jack Bauer 24,
I find it exceedingly hard to believe that either she or Maisie would actually reveal two major plot points.
I always assumed some or all of it was untrue.
Markus Stark,
Right, or people are assuming like 3 weeks have passed since she left Winterfell, not like the months and months it would likely be.
Or that Sansa hasn’t done absolutely everything to guarantee she’s not pregnant.
Very weird speculation.
http://m.hitfix.com/the-dartboard/game-of-thrones-please-stop-with-the-sansa-is-pregnant-theory-it-misses-the-whole-point
HitFix says please stop with the Sansa pregnant theory. It “misses the whole point.”
Yes, but that isn’t enough. That’s not even close to what the Rat Cook suffered for killing only one person protected by guest rights – and Lord Frey slaughtered hundreds, at least.
It’s going to be really hard for GoT to top last season’s finale, or create the same “Is Jon Snow really dead?” hype for the off-season.
So I’m trying to keep my expectations in check. Aside from burning down Kings Landing or the Wall falling, I’m not sure what “big event” could happen that would be that cataclysmic? (Question mark)
While KL burning is a possibility, I don’t see the wall falling yet. There hasn’t been enough to set that up, plus once the Walkers cross, all the other story lines almost become moot overnight.
My guess is the wall stands through next season (though is tested throughout), and falls in the S7 finale. S8 then becomes all about the battle to survive.
ThisGirlHasNoName,
Dany leaving Mereen? please old gods and new let it happen already.
He was around this morning in some threads, particularly the Sophie interview thread, but I think another one or two.
TheZoze,
Run Jaime run!!!!
crabber’s son,
Is he though ..deep down he wants the recognition and accepted ..hence the reason he keeps getting this dream about becoming lord of winterfell
That’s worked so well in the past.
Kind of like the interview published today?
Is the “carp” a Tully pun? I like it.
Ginevra,
Unless Arya adds
then it’s trolling lol
No he’ll be near a Weir Tree north of the Wall, possibly the one he touched and had that vision through when on the way to the 3ER
Can imagine he can still hook into the Weirnet and have visions by touching the faces etc, which hopefully is how we get rest of ToJ…
My theory/wish goes something like this
LF: I thought you knew what I wanted
SANSA: I do… you want my hand in marriage
LF: Yes
SANSA: I agree, I promised my hand in marriage and I will give it
LF: **Looks at her like a pervert**
Robin Arryn and Royce emerge
SANSA: Which is why I have agreed to marry Robin when he comes of age
LF: Umm, wut?
Robin: Yes, Sansa and I have discussed it and while I can’t make you fly Uncle Peter…
Brienne appears, unsheathes Oathkeeper
LF gets what’s coming to him
He serves literally no purpose in the story going forward.
Nar Jaimie is fine, Walder Frey basically fawns over the Lannisters and want the approval of their like given his nagging insecurities over the esteem in which his House is held
Laura,
I will buy you a drink if this happens lol!!!
😉
as you can tell, my theories are so outlandish, they couldn’t possibly be spoilers lol
Halfman,
Interesting…. Thank you!
Did Ben Hawkey film this off season?
Laura,
(continuing your story)
LF: But wait! before you kill me there’s something you should know.
Sansa: Here he goes again
LF: Back when I was a poor orphan your mother pitied but could never love, I ran into a few Children of the Forest….
Brienne: Can I kill him now?
LF: And they told me exactly how to make Valyrian steel with blood magic and what really happened to cause the Doom of V–wait!
*kills him before he can talk about things he shouldn’t know again*
🙂
I don’t understand why people think Jon will be KitN. Sansa is now lady of WF and possibly QitN. I’m not saying this because I think she deserves it more or because she would be a better ruler but purely based on succession rights: the trueborn daughter is ahead of the bastard son. And yes, if Bran shows up, she will have to back down.
Furthermore she has LF’s army to back her claim if she (and LF) presses the issue. The northern army seems to be a bit tattered right now. I loathe the idea of Sansa owing LF her victory though I do believe Sansa will eventually kill the scumbag and keep the army somehow. However, that would be for next season as it is too good to be true that LF will bite the dust one episode after Ramsay.
As to the ToJ, I have a gut feeling that reveal will be for next season. Btw, if R+J were not married, Jon would still be a bastard and Dany would be the legitimate heir to the iron throne, not Jon. However, I presume R+J eloped and got married; it was not an abduction/rape as everybody has been told.
I think young Ned is confirmed for the finale.
I’m hoping that Arya and Jaime meet, if only to hear Arya exclaim, “You’re Jaime Lannister, the Queen’s twin brother!”
From all the season (not episode) trailers and previews, we’ve not seen the scene of Littlefinger in the winter godswood and of the Freys celebrating, which we’ve discussed at length. But we also have yet to hear Sansa’s line: “It’s all I think about. What’s taken from me.” We also didn’t get, “the past is already written; the ink is already dry,” but we may never get that line or Sansa’s. And that’s it, I think. This list has really dwindled in the past two weeks. They’re keeping the last episode pretty hush-hush.
Ginevra,
I’ve been wondering if she says that to Jon or LF. The former would be so powerful as a reason why she was so tunnel vision – I just want them to have a real conversation.
Facepalm: R+L not R+J. Duh
I’m pretty sure the 3 eyed Raven said the “ink is already dry” line to Bran in the episode where he was trying to call out for young adult Ned. (And where it seemed like Ned heard him and Hodor definitely did later so I think the 3ER was wrong about that one).
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
The whole point of the TeamStark 2016 Tour of The North was to show that they will not rally around Sansa and using the Vale army to back her claim would be an even bigger mistake as the houses that were just on different sides will most likely unite to defeat what is essentially an invading force.
Jon will have won loyalty of a lot of people after BoB and him being a “bastard” cant be held against him as the previous leader of the north was also a bastard except for a piece of paper signed by a boy king they arent really loyal to anyway
Jons arc is going to require that he has power, he will need it to fight the Nights King/WW…to get that power at this point he will have to become King in the North
Ginevra,
Didn’t we get ‘the ink is dry’ bit in episode 3?
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
There are a few reasons why I think he will be king and why Sansa could be okay with it. (this is assuming her Vale secret was just a moment of desperation and mistrust that gets cleared up after chat with Jon)
1. Succession rights are kind of out the window at this point. The world is a mess after the wars, so many houses have lost the majority of their fighting men, winter isn’t just coming-it’s coming with a horde of ice zombies. People aren’t into standing on ceremony-Glover said as much to Sansa when she reminded him about the duty of bannermen.
2. The wildlings follow Jon and now the North, on both sides of that last battle, saw him fight to the last man in the muck right beside them. Saw him put other lives ahead of his own-ala Ned and his Stark predecessors. That counts for a lot among this particular group of people.
3. Sansa has been a hostage since season 1. Why? Because she was thought to be “the key to the North”. And then the last Stark. All of her suffering came from people using her as a pawn to rule and/or gain control of Winterfell. It would make sense to me if that affected her in a negative way. If Jon were king-she wouldn’t be as valuable a target. Now that she’s home again that might appeal to her.
4. It’s exactly what LF wants. He’d be the stepfather of the Lord of the Vale and the husband/consort of the Lady of Winterfell-Harrenhal is his and the Tullys are gone-so the Riverlands are easy pickings. Sansa is the physical representation of Cat-who he held up as a symbol for years as he worked for what he wanted. All that would be left is KL and the Reach…although you really think he’d know about Dany and the dragons at this point. Still-Dany would have to work with him-because he would basically be in control of a huge portion of Westeros. Do we really want to give him that kind of power? I say no. 🙂
Bonus 5 for Bran. Bran being the 3 eyed raven kind of sounds like a full time job. I’m not sure he can do the day to day business at just Winterfell with all that going on in his head. I mean, maybe, but it seems less likely.
When you know about the WWs, you want a leader to bring you through the Long Night. Jon is that leader. Even if he doesn’t want to be. #kingjon2016 🙂
Someone make bumper stickers haha!
Ginevra,
We didn’t get “They have no idea what’s going to happen” from Bran either.
We actually did get “The past is already written, the ink is dry” from Bloodraven in “Oathbreaker”. What we didn’t get from him was “We watch, we listen, and we remember”. While that line was probably cut from the scene in “Oathbreaker”, Bran’s line about people having no idea what’s coming seems rather important.
It may also indicate that aside from the ToJ, we may get another Bran vision, perhaps of the future, pertaining to what will happen when the Winter comes.
Laura,
Littlefinger will likely live as long, or nearly as long, as Varys. They are the puppet-masters, the competing narrative representatives of ice and fire. They balance each other out.
Nadia,
Yup.
Ginevra,
Plus its at his home, so he’s not a guest.
Jack Bauer 24,
I disagree with much of the article, especially all the parts about Sansa’s rape undermining her agency, and how the show supposedly focused too much on Theon. Utter nonsense in my view, but I don’t want to reopen that can of worms ; there is enough hostility and controversy in the comments regarding Sansa as it is.
But the title of the article is correct, theories about Sansa being pregnant do indeed miss the point.
I’m interested to hear the Sansa speech, as well as the little birds get stabby. By the way, rewatching the episode. There was a good amount of Jon’s army that was intact when the Bolton’s surrounded them and the Vale army arrived, plus remember, Glover and Manderly didn’t join the battle. Don’t remember if they said Hornwood took part. There could still Be a formidable force still left in the north.
The return of Winterfell to Stark control.
Speaking of the fall of the Bolton’s…I wonder what will happen to the Dreadfort? Who gets it?
Sou,
Maybe Bran will communicate it through the the weir wood tree t Sansa who was also at a tree? He can talk to people through the tree right?
RG,
Ok, you made good points in 1-3. However, I can’t possibly imagine the show runners marrying Sansa off AGAIN to the monster who orchestrated the whole mess that killed her family after being married twice to monsters that murdered her family. Especially after last’s year’s uproar. I also think her story arc is about her gaining independence, as you mentioned in point 3, she is done being anyone’s pawn. So no, I don’t think she will marry LF. She might promise him that but beat him at his own game before the wedding, keeping the Vale army for herself.
Of course Sansa won’t marry Littlefinger now, people.
She’ll marry Walder Frey first, and THEN she’ll marry Petyr, thus marrying into all the major families that have wronged her family.
That was her avatar path: Lannister (fire), Bolton (earth), Frey (water), and then Baelish (air).
Awww…….. I like how you graciously admit that Daenerys MAY live! 😀 Maybe Jon will live at the end of the day? 😉 And ask her to rule with him? Also, I get it. You are basing Jon as King of Westeros not on R+L=J and such mathematical formulae, (which should be irrelevant, right?) but on Jon saving the realm in the war against the WWS. Okay. Obviously the dragons are irrelevant!
Maybe that’s how we’ll see the NK for the last time this season then? Since it is too early for the Wall to come down, maybe Bran sees the NK and company make it there in a vision? I would be pretty disappointed if we didn’t see NK in the finale. Will they have enough time for two Bran visions though?
It’s quite likely that is exactly what she meant.
Hopefully not as many cliffhangers though. Off season is too long lol. I really think final scene will be Dany and company finally leaving Essos.
I really want to see Yara and Theon react to seeing dragons for the first time.
Markus Stark,
That line from Bran “they have no idea what’s going to happen” was from the teaser promo way back in dec, it was not actually from the S6 trailer, so that line may have been added on as a voice over for dramatic effect, and not part of any scene. Bran’s vision in ep 10 will be ToJ related, I don’t really see how that line will fit in. Unless he has a separate vision of WWs causing destruction or something.
Ser Tormund of House Giantsbane and his Lady Brienne 😉
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
Oh yeah-I don’t think she will either. I just think he’d want her to in exchange for his continued help-or as his “reward”
ghost of winterfell,
I hope we do get a separate vision, as I want to see the White Walkers again. I mean we were promised more WW action this year, but we actually haven’t seen that much of them. We only saw them in “The Door”.
Another thing I’m wondering about, is the scene that was cut from Season 4, and then from Season 5, that we were supposed to get this year.
I don’t know if anyone remembers the details, but some VFX guy came out after “Hardhome” aired, and said in an interview that the script for Season 4 originally included an extremely VFX heavy WW sequence, that was cut because it was too costly and complex. Then they moved it into Season 5, but it got the ax once again. He later said that this time around (meaning in Season 6) the scene would definitely be included and would be internet-breaking.
I can’t imagine it’s the cave battle, since that couldn’t have ever been planned for Seasons 4 or 5.
Jack Bauer 24,
Who knows ! The finale is going to be jam-packed no matter what. I just hope it won’t feel rushed.
But if possible, I hope we do get two Bran scenes, I’ve really missed his story these last few weeks, and I want more from Benjen as well.
I would also love to see the Night’s King again, and honestly I feel like it’s necessary in a way.
We were told there would be a lot more WW action this year, but we only saw them in “The Door”, and then had the wights in “Blood of my Blood”.
A man is not satisfied with only two episodes featuring WW/wights. A show owes a man three.
This is just a gut feeling I have based on Jon and Sansa’s interactions this season, and I may be completely wrong come Sunday evening. I think Sansa will expect that being a trueborn daughter, her claim will come before Jon’s. But I think the people who fought with Jon, the Northerners, will declare him KitN. Sansa will go along with this, but in her heart she will be disappointed. This will push her more towards LF, who may offer her his hand.
Mihnea,
My guess about how it goes down (I’ll stick this under spoiler tags, even though it’s speculation).
Shortly before or shortly after that, Littlefinger confronts Sansa in the Godswood. He wants Sansa to be either Queen or Warden of the North. He either suggests that she marry his puppet Robin or he proposes marriage to her himself. Effectively, this would unite the North and the Vale into one political entity that can rival the Iron Throne. Despite his earlier assertions that he wanted to make amends for selling her to Ramsay, he’ll basically imply that she owes him for his role in helping reclaim Winterfell for the Starks. In doing so, he’ll make it clear – not directly, but overtly – that Jon is an unwanted complication and a threat. He already tried to drive a wedge between them in “The Door” with his assertion that Jon was only Sansa’s “half-brother” and she needed her own power base.
Sansa knows exactly what Littlefinger’s game is, but also feels like her position is compromised. She goes through an internal struggle about what to do.
Meanwhile, the Northern Lords gather at Winterfell to reconcile with the reinstated Starks (and for those who refused to support them to apologize). A debate will ensue as to who should lead the North – Sansa, the trueborn daughter of Ned Stark who married both a Lannister and a Bolton, or Jon, the supposed bastard who’s also a war hero (despite Jon’s tactical errors during the Battle of the Bastards, I expect the most of the North will respect his bravery and view him as the hero who led the fight to defeat the Boltons. I doubt that the fiercely provincial Northmen will be keen to celebrate an outsider like Littlefinger as their avenging angel).
During the debate, Sansa will unexpectedly throw her support to Jon, making the case that his military experience and knowledge of the greater threat massing beyond the Wall makes him a more suitable leader in the wars to come, despite her trueborn claim (also, it’s a powerful display of her trust in him). This also effectively undercuts Littlefinger’s plans. Her words help tip the scales, and Jon is declared King in the North. Jon is shocked and doesn’t necessarily want the title, but he agrees to accept it, effectively becoming Jon Stark (somewhat ironically, since I believe his true parentage will be revealed to the audience before this). Littlefinger is furious, but seeing Jon, Sansa, and what remains of the North united, he decides not to challenge them … for now. So the stage is set for the Northern political conflict in Season 7.
Nevermind, he’ll find anothers.
Jack Bauer 24,
I must have heard the soundtracks hundred times in my sleep ..
I went into the night thinking maybe they can end with winter has come or light of the seven..
But when you hear the winds of winter after 2.10 mark its surely happens when end credits rolling ..
And that 2.10 minutes has dany’s and greyjoyes theme mixed and near the end of the 2.10 mark we get dany on drogon theme..
So I expect we will be seeing dothraki and unsullied mount the ships and yara and tyrion and theon too and then dany will start the March by getting on drogon with rhaegal and viserion on the tail .
I can’t wait for the visuals ..if last episode is anything to go by it would be awesome..
Jack Bauer 24,
I must have heard the soundtracks hundred times during my sleep ..
I went into the night thinking maybe they can end with winter has come or light of the seven..
But when you hear the winds of winter after 2.10 mark its surely happens when end credits rolling ..
So dany sailing to westeros is end scene for sure ..
And that 2.10 minutes has dany’s and greyjoyes theme mixed and near the end of the 2.10 mark we get dany on drogon theme..
So I expect we will be seeing dothraki and unsullied mount the ships and yara and tyrion and theon too and then dany will start the March by getting on drogon with rhaegal and viserion on the tail .
I can’t wait for the visuals ..if last episode is anything to go by it would be awesome..
You guys, they had Jon questioning Mel about just what kind of God it is she serves that brought him back to life only to possibly be killed again and then next week we see that Jon will learn from Davos about the burning alive of a little girl and she’ll say that’s what the LoL wanted so you know that Jon will not want to have anything to do with her or the LoL. What happens if/when he turns his back on this God and thus his destiny??
Kay,
That would be the final nail in Sansa’s coffin for me. I used to be so insanely hyped to see her inevitable take down of LF at some point, but I now have such an issue with her character that I have to say I’ve stopped rooting for her. There is nothing likeable about her to me, and even if I sympathize with her plight, I’m far too dismayed with the direction they’ve taken with her to really enjoy her scenes in any way.
They have had her 1) declaring that Rickon is a lost cause without even appearing saddened by that fact (despite previously using his captivity as an argument to convince Jon to fight), 2) sending Jon to the slaughter for an unknown reason (I have already heard people’s myriad excuses for this, and none of them make any sense to me so I’ll kindly ask any who would reiterate them to abstain from doing so), 3) smiling smugly as if she is a great victor when the Vale arrived, despite the fact that thousands have just been butchered, and Littlefinger riding in before everyone (including Jon) was killed is purely a matter of luck that she should get no credit for , 4) ignoring Rickon’s death, and 5) sadistically smirking at Ramsay’s fate despite the fact she has just lost her baby brother.
If they make her overtly power hungry as well, and disappointed that she isn’t viewed as a great savior and leader, I’ll have to completely write her off as a character I simply cannot care about anymore.
Markus Stark,
The scene they were speaking of was showing Mel’s true age, most probably. They were waiting for the right time to show this. The vfx guy did not say that it was going to be a WW heavy sequence, if I am not mistaken. All he said was that there was some vfx gag which they were very excited to do, which they knew was going to happen since working on S4.
Regarding the finale, the only WW action that is likely is Bran seeing them in a vision, imo.
Or maybe Sansa supports Jon as KitN because she sees this as the best way to thwart LF. I feel this season will end with Sansa somehow getting the upper hand against LF.
Jared,
This seems the most likely scenario.
Demon Monkey,
I think Danni will step aside, eventually. Remember she can’t have children. It’ll be up to John to continue to grow their almost extinguished house.
I’m worried that the wall will come down or the walkers will breach it in this episode. They better burn the piles of bodies outside winterfell pronto!!
Given the episode title I feel like the WW will have an important role.
Markus Stark,
If u want others to stop arguing for Sansa then I suggest you stop bitching about how terrible and irredeemable she seems to you.
Just a thought.
Kay,
To be fair to Sansa, and i’m not feeling particularly charitable to her so this is unusual for me, but she hasn’t shown necessarily that she wants power for HERSELF in terms of political power.
I think she’s wanted revenge and to take Winterfell back from Ramsay. But I don’t think she’s ever expected that it would be HERS.
From the beginning she did say she wanted Jon with her. He was pretty front and center in the recruitment efforts. She’s talked about him being Ned’s son, even as a bastard, a few times. And she acknowledged that as a girl, she doesn’t have a great claim.
I don’t know if her ultimate goal has been power. And according to Sophie, Jon letting her handle Ramsay without being asked kind of went a long way for her. I don’t think she’s angling and she’s really pragmatic now – I don’t think she thinks she can rule alone as a woman.
Ygritte,
I’m of the belief that the LoL is just a greenseer that has reached out to the priests and priestesses whether he dismisses Mel or not doesn’t change his destiny
The White Fawn, leader of the outlaws, branded him with her brand. Who is they and why are they talking about it?
Replying to both of these points, because I don’t see Sansa so far as power-hungry, or wanting power for the sake of wanting power. But she’s been a pawn too long, she has suffered at the hands of people who held power over her (and who she didn’t expect at the beginning to be cruel to her), so she may want some power to be able to be “independent”, so to say. In the beginning of S1, she didn’t imagine Joffrey to be horrible to her. When she consented to the Bolton marriage, she didn’t expect Ramsay to be a sadist. She may finally realize that by having some power of her own, she no longer has to be at the whimsey of anyone else.
And… as I said before, I may be totally wrong. Just wanted to explain WHY I think she may want some power.
Considering Tommen is the only character who hasn’t tortured a kitten to death, I find it a bit sad how everyone seems to hate him. Just goes to show how much people despise weakness.
Sam,
Because LF would win, Walkers will come. Sansa knows precisely nothing about them and neither does Northerners. Jon and Tormund saw them and they know. This is now the most important thing. If spoilers are true, Northerners value bravery on the field more. Actually Sansa supporting Jon would make sense in a way that she would finally put trust in him as someone who knows walkers and what is coming to them. also screw LF plans.
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
Doesn’t Sansa have the big secret against LF? Namely, that he killed Lysa Arryn. Or did her “testimony” in S4 take that off the table? Also, I’m assuming only Cersei and Varys know that LF was the one who turned over Ned. If Sansa ever found that out…though I’m amazed she was at KL so long afterwards and no one mentioned it to her (esp. Varies who has no love for LF).
Geralt of Rivia,
Polygamy was practicided by Targaryens before
It’s been 250 years since the Targaryens practiced polygamy. It was Aegon I’s son, Maegor who died in 42 AC. We are past 300 AC.
Kay,
Jon already died so probably not gonna die again. This is why I mentioned Daeny if she lives or not. She could easily go in the blaze of glory or not. I hope not but you never know. If she lives, she holds all the triumphs and can ask Jon to rule with her. If not some Grand Council will decide which leads me to LC voting, KitN maybe.
Sam,
His wife was killed by the Mountain in the sack of KL after Rhaegar died.
Ravyn,
Lysa also mentioned before she died that she killed her husband and accused Lannisters at LF’s instructions, and LF admitted that he and queen of thorns killed Joffrey. Plus LF lied to the Vale about where he was taking Sansa. She knows all of this–but still doesn’t know about the gold cloaks and Ned betrayal-or convincing Cat that Tyrion tried to kill Bran so she’d take him hostage which started a war. She also doesn’t know he’s the reason she was forced to marry Tyrion and stay in KL because he didn’t want her marrying Loras, going to Highgarden and ruining his plans.
He really has been busy the last few years.
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
Power resides where men believe it resides.
At this point, with all the chaos that abounds, I’m not certain that people will be overly concerned about strictly applying the rules of succession. At this point, what Lords are left in the North that have supported the Starks – three? The rest sided with the Boltons or didn’t enter the fray. Who gets to decide?
Markus Stark,
It seems to me that they want to have it both ways … they want Sansa to be a “boss ass bitch” to use Sophie’s words, and yet still a respectful highborn lady who has good motivations but sometimes has understandable trust issues. Whether that is intentional, bad writing, or due to other factors, I don’t know and I doubt we will have any resolution. It could just end up being a lovefest at WF and everyone will kiss and make up with no further explanation required.
Markus Stark,
Another thing I’m wondering about, is the scene that was cut from Season 4, and then from Season 5, that we were supposed to get this year.
I thought that was the Mel reveal.
Sigh…season finale already ?!
I’m going to miss you Jon Snow!
This is my favorite season so far!
So excited ( and bummed ) for the finale!!??
Markus Stark:
I agree with most of this but its a bit harsh to criticize Sansa for finding pleasure at the sight of her tormentor being killed. How is it any different from Jon deriving his pleasure by punching Ramsay’s face to oblivion ? Deanerys smiling smugly while burning all the Khals-even though none had directly hurt her-was truly inexplicable by comparison.
RG,
Yeah, I hope these plot threads figure into their future relationship, whatever that is. It really shouldn’t just be dropped. I mean…she really has to find out at some point that LF essentially killed her father.
^ THIS!!!!! (Where is that pesky ‘like’ button when a girl needs one? )
Demon Monkey,
What the hell is the matter with you ?
I didn’t ask anyone to stop defending Sansa. If someone wants to defend her, fine, go ahead. But I personally don’t like the direction they’ve taken with her, and I have every right to say so. It’s not “bitching”. You don’t agree with my opinion ? Fine, then disagree with me respectfully or ignore me.
You can’t dictate the terms of how or when people get to share their views. I’ll express my opinion if I want to. If that’s inconvenient for you, tough shit. Deal with it.
ghost of winterfell,
Interesting. I had thought it was a WW sequence for some reason.
Re Sansa: I don’t know why people expect her to be sweet, honorable Lady Stark. Hiding the truth, manipulating people to her benefit doesn’t bother her as that expert conning of Vale elders showed us.
She’s always been the least ‘Stark’ of all Ned’s children. While the Starks are established to uphold honor and family and be ready to die for those values, Sansa has- from the beginning- paid more importance to her own interests, her own survival-sometimes at the expense of family and honor.
Its not mere coincidence that Lady was the first direwolf to die and it was a product of Sansa betraying her family ( Arya ) and the truth for the benefit of her future husband. It is also no coincidence that Ghost and Nymeria have outlived their kin, as Jon and Arya were established in the very first chapters to resemble Ned the most.
If Sansa does become Lady of Winterfell, I for one will be very disappointed.
During the victory meal of the Lannisters and Freys , if some of the Freys died and Jaime doesn’t , Jaime will be blamed. He has his army with him so they can’t do anything. It will isolate the Freys. They cant rely on the Northern house for back up and the Lannister umbrella they’ve risen under is no good to them now.
I cannot see Sansa accepting a marraige whether in name only. She knows what can happen and she won’t have a choice if her husband ” wants” her .
After this series, 14 episodes left , that’s a lot of drama to be condensed in . Both Bran and Benjen have been touched by the WW. If Bran being touched made the magic at the children of the forest redundant, it must be the same at the wall.
Houses will unite under a leader they think will be the best , bastard or not if winter is coming .
ADDITIONAL PHOTOS UP:
http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery10/gallery.htm
Darkrobin,
Yeah, they definitely want it both ways, and the problem is, in my opinion, that both of those aspects of her characterization failed, making the result pretty poor.
I don’t think Jon will have any problem with what Sansa did. Hell, he’ll probably praise her for it. At most he’ll say something like “You were right, but I wish you would have trusted me with the information”.
The writers clearly didn’t intend for her to have done anything wrong, they think they wrote a perfectly cohesive story about Sansa being smart and strategic. I really don’t think she is meant to have wronged Jon. Which is a big part of the problem : it’s a completely valid interpretation of what we saw that she did wrong Jon, and for no reason whatsoever. In fact, defending her actions requires quite a few illogical and contrived assumptions.
^ Thanks! Looking at the Trial pics, I hope I can watch the Loras segment…. I realize this episode has been ready to go for quite some time, but it’s been very difficult these last twelve days.
BranTheBlessed,
Jon did not have any satisfied little smirk as he looked upon the bloodied face of Ramsay on the ground before walking away. He punched the shit out of him because revenge rage, had blood lust from the savage war being fought coursing through his veins. Jon would never get personal satisfaction out of watching vicious dogs rip someone’s face off. Hell, he didn’t even enjoy hanging the men who murdered him! I agree with Kit’s assessment in that the viewer at the end should be like, ok Jon that’s enough, cause we don’t like seeing our hero turning into a monster or whatever.
When Ramsay tells Sansa he’s now part of her she proves this is somewhat true by having a moment where she’s morbidly satisfied with her method of retribution as she walks away, imitating Ramsay himself. And no it’s not her fault, she’s had her last bit of innocence destroyed by a lunatic. I’m not saying that Sansa shouldn’t have put mad dog Ramsay down in the same method he used to kill others, I’m just saying that he’s made her a colder more callous person whereas old Sansa would have turned away at that kind of spectacle.
Well that sept of Baelor looks packed lol
I see Jaime has no pie on his plate but Walder does!
Hawk,
Or are they just arriving?
ygritte
Yeah, I agree that the encounter with Ramsay has possibly left a lasting impression on Sansa. The smirk though is more of a directing thing, I think. Its pretty common on this show, the satisfied smirking reaction of a female actress. The expression of contorted anger works for Jon but for female characters, it wouldn’t look very good on TV. The alternative would have been to make Sansa exhibit no emotion at all, that’s mostly reserved for Arya.
BranTheBlessed,
“I agree with most of this but its a bit harsh to criticize Sansa for finding pleasure at the sight of her tormentor being killed. How is it any different from Jon deriving his pleasure by punching Ramsay’s face to oblivion ? Daenerys smiling smugly while burning all the Khals-even though none had directly hurt her-was truly inexplicable by comparison”.
You’re right, the Khals hadn’t done anything to her Dany, but it’s already been established that Dany sometimes smiles smugly while murdering people who didn’t harm her.
I mean let’s remember than when she got her Unsullied army, she had all the masters of Astapor slaughtered. They hadn’t done anything to her. Yeah, Kraznys was talking shit, but that’s it. In the books, I think she even orders her men to kill every person above the age of 12 who is wearing a tokar. That’s pretty brutal.
She crucifies 163 masters, indiscriminately, and later shows little to no remorse when she learns Hizdahr’s father had in fact spoken out against crucifying the children she was seeking justice for.
She feeds a potentially innocent master to her dragons. She’s violent, and she has a touch of that Targaryen madness in her, and yes she enjoys some of this brutality.
So while her smiling smugly as she burned the Khals didn’t endear me to her, it was basically within character for her, given what has been established about Dany in the books and the show.
Ramsay’s fate is a different story, but I won’t get into too many of the details because it would be quite lengthy and I already know that literally nobody will agree with me.
Everyone loved Ramsay’s death. I did not, and I’m pretty sure that I must be within a minority of 0,000001% (or less) of the viewers.
Suffice it to say I obviously have no sympathy for Ramsay, and did find Jon pummeling him to be satisfying, but I don’t like the writers’ decision to have Sansa feed him to his dogs. That’s the Bolton thing to do, and I would have preferred that Jon and Sansa deal with him the Stark way.
The main problem to me though is her smile as she’s walking off. Obviously I can understand her satisfaction at Ramsay’s demise, but she just looks so calm, serene, and happy. It feels wrong, tonally speaking, given that Rickon has just died, that she would smile about anything.
One thing that I like that GRRM has always emphasized in his writing is that vengeance doesn’t always taste as sweet as we think it will, and it certainly doesn’t repair the damage that has already been done. Sansa looks as though all is now right with the world, but to me, the sense of loss and the grief should have outweighed any pleasure she could derive from Ramsay’s death.
At the end of the day, I don’t like the show’s celebration of blood lust and vengeance (which they have a habit of doing), as opposed to showing the viewers that no matter how bloody Ramsay’s death was, no matter how fitting or how deserved it was, it will not and cannot make up for all the harm he has already caused, and all the pain the Jon and Sansa will live with forever as a result of Ramsay’s crimes.
Even if she already knew Rickon would likely die, she has just seen his lifeless body. The despair and sadness at the fact that she has lost yet another family member at the hands of a Bolton should be the main emotion she is feeling. Instead, it looks like her savage murder of Ramsay has really put her mind at peace.
I prefer stories where vengeance is a misguided quest to fill the hole in your heart – a quest that inevitably fails when you realize you will never get back what you lost.
I have many other reasons why I personally didn’t like that scene (or the fact that Jon appears to have been involved in arranging it), such as the fact that Sansa has probably never seen such a horrific and gruesome thing, and yet she has no problem watching someone being eaten alive. Even if it is deserved for Ramsay, it’s a horrific and disgusting thing to see. You would think she would find the sight disturbing, but no, she seems very calm and content. There is just something off about her unflinching sadism.
Not to mention the fact that her revenge seems to only be for the abuse she endured. His murder of Rickon doesn’t seem to factor into the equation, it doesn’t even seem to be on her mind at all. The writers said Jon let Sansa finish Ramsay off, because she was his victim. But the truth is, if it’s vengeance for Rickon, Jon has every right to it as well. This indicates that Sansa’s revenge is for herself, rather than for herself AND Rickon.
As for your point about Jon, he is in a fit of rage over Rickon’s murder, hence why he is pummeling Ramsay. He isn’t enjoying Ramsay’s suffering in the same calculated and sadistic way that Sansa is when she kills him. But this is a minor point.
The more important point is that even Kit Harington said that if Jon were to continue beating Ramsay, it would be going too far. Jon would be a hero becoming a monster. Now that’s just Harington’s opinion, and it’s debatable obviously, but I do think that is a correct interpretation of how the Starks are meant to behave and be perceived. They are meant to be driven by justice, not senseless brutality, even when horrible things have been done to them.
Like I said, I have several other reasons as well, but I’ll stop here, because this is really getting way too long, and probably very tedious to read, and like I said, nobody will agree with me.
This is just how I felt about it.
Dvd C.,
yes you do (but it’s a very old rest of snow)
Wolfish hearts,
Can’t wait to see final..and sorry to see it end until next year
ygritte,
I love everything you’ve just written. You nailed it, and expressed my thoughts far more succinctly than I ever could.
This is also why I have trouble believing Jon would be OK with, let alone help set up, Sansa’s “execution by dog” of Ramsay. But the evidence in the episode seems to suggest he did.
What do you think ?
Markus Stark,
I think you would find interesting a piece about this that Bryan Cogman retweted recently
ash,
Where did you see Bran up on a horse? Is it in a picture or preview?
White Raven? Mad Queen? #HYPE
Plus I hope Jaime kills Walder Frey: we are close to the end now, I want him to be more than Cersei’s lover.
Markus Stark
ygritte:
Fair points. The smirk is more of a directing thing, I think. Its pretty common on this show, the satisfied smirking reaction of a female actress. The expression of contorted anger works for Jon but for female characters, it wouldn’t look very good on TV. The alternative would have been to make Sansa exhibit no emotion at all, that’s mostly reserved for Arya.
Re: The Stark way of death penalty, it is a honorable way of dying. Perhaps Ramsay-for the monstrosity and inhuman nature of his crimes-does not deserve that clean death? Besides only the Lord of Winterfell can pass the judgement and carry out the deed ( I think? ) so Ramsay would need be kept alive until a Lord of Winterfell was chosen.
At the end of the day, D&D choose the route that’ll look best on TV. And the sight of Ramsay meeting his end by the same hounds that he used to slaughter innocent lives gives a satisfaction to most of the viewers.
Woohoo Season Finale!!! Gonna be epic…predictions…
(although i have been wrong about pretty much everything this season)
Can see Cersei torching the Faith Militant, SU and HS
Varys to have somehow allied with Dorne (remember them) and the SS’s end up taking out KL and GMP – paving the way for Dany and her New Alliance (Iron Islands, Dorne, Second Sons, Unsullied and Dothraki) to set sail for Westeros.
JL, BotB, BoT, Pod, Hound, BwoB’s, Freys are all kind of in the same area and can see some of these characters clashing.
ToJ has to happen and then hopefully Bran can communicate to JS through the Weirwood trees and tells him R+L=J
Arya, Sam, Gilly – would just love to see them
SoCalGal,
Bran on a horse … there is a link above for new pics. 🙂
dragonbringer,
Daeny wants to rule and show makes it clear. She wants power and she wants what is hers. Unlike books where she thinks about Rhaegar’s son. They make her power hungry. But don’t think it would work between them and that this is the ending George thought of. It’s an option. I would like to see Jon far away from ironhrone and who knwos if that throne still exists at the end.
LOL, yup!! Unfortunately, Bronn at some point is standing over Walder Frey’s plate…what if he sits down and chows down on that tantalizing piece of pie that is there for the taking? Dun, dun, dun!
I think we have to expect a big twist at the ToJ, same kind of the Hodor twist.
Now I have to prepare myself to the finale :p
I don’t think Sansa was present when Lysa blurted out how she killed Jon Arryn and set the Starks against the Lannisters, on LF’s behest. Sansa heard this, in the books but not on the show, iirc. So other than killing Lysa, the only incriminating act done by LF which she has knowledge of is Joffrey’s death.
Holy crap people still arguing about Sansa?? Amazing….ever since I came here last year, I’ve always wondered how come people get so sensitive over her?
The new pictures seem to indicate Frey pies?? We were supposed to get a fat northern lord who unexpectedly switches alliances and has one important scene. Manderlys confirmed at the Twins?
My prediction for season 7…Battle for Winterfell 3.0.
Sansa falls for Jon, Arya shows up and attempts to steal him away; meanwhile the WW march ever onward, but Sansa, Jon and Arya are oblivious as the Dance of She Wolves continues, yet Jon has his eye on a particular shade of Red, stay tuned next April for “As Winterfell Turns”.
Oh good lord here we go again…
This is speculation; and I’m not sure this qualifies as spoiler, but I’m covering, just the same.
I know I’m in the minority, but I’m not so sure about one theory:
Jon’s parentage…
I know there are reasons/thoughts contrary to this alternative theory:
I just think maybe we could be getting led down a path and there might be surprise. .. kinda hope so, kinda don’t.
LL of Darkwater,
Robert and Lyanna never spend a night. Lyanna knew he would never be faithful to her and Robert said she was the only thing he ever wanted.
George said it many tims that he’s not gonna backtrack from what he planned ad he carefully put hints. Show alluded to only one theory so unless two babies were born. It’s right on the money.
Ginevra,
The “past is already written” was said. The Three Eyed Raven line that hasn’t been said yet is “We Watch, We Listen, and we remember.” We also don’t have Bran’s ” They don’t know what is going to happen”
Jamie and Bronn – always wear armour when you dine with the Freys…
Geralt of Rivia,
Yeah… I’m thinking that, mostly thinking that… and I don’t think that’s in line with other stuff.
But I also don’t think that story line would be specifically backtracking (the ink is dry from the hand of GRRM) just…. something nagging about the way Baratheon spoke of her. And something feels as if it’s creeping up behind as a surprise.
I’m most likely waaaaay off, probably, yeah, I’m sure I’m wrong.
Still…. nah.
The wall is several days ride from Winterfell. The horn blasts were from the Bolton alliance lining itself up for a days worth of carnage and fun.
Markus Stark,
You are not alone, I felt the same way. The expression and sentiment was wrong, and her entire arc went on a downhill curve when she threw Rickon under the bus. The Starks in many ways symbolized an actual happy family that truly cared about one another through out the series. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. But here is a clear and deliberate break from that – it is more than her being pragmatic, it was cold – normal people fight for their loved ones until all hope is lost. I think I read or it was in one of the producers videos that Sansa isn’t a pure Stark anymore, which puzzled me – especially as I thought Sansa would be instrumental in uniting her family as she learned that Arya, Bran, Rickon and Jon were alive. Perhaps this is what they meant – her connections to her family are not as strong anymore, too much time, distance and pain. She may sill care about them, but just not enough anymore – and that is sad.
LL of Darkwater,
What Red Herrings has GRRM ever given us? Most of the putative examples are things that fans blew way out of proportion from narrative details of the sort that book authors have to include in an attempt to capture things with words. These have been labeled “Mount Molehills”: that is, mountains built from molehills by fans!
GRRM’s fans are not alone in this. Tolkien fans and Rowling fans certainly did the same: the latter is particularly instructive, as many of the wildly incorrect conjectures from hardcore fans about how there series were based on small narrative details that were, in the end, just small narrative details, whereas the correct conjectures from normal readers were based on the well-hung guns of the series. One thing that has largely distinguished GRRM from most other fantasy writers is that even the plot twists are set up in advance: when something happens, then you can look back and go, “oh, that is what X and Y meant a chapter or two ago!”
But as for Robert and Lyanna, no, they would not have been together. And this just gets to the basic psychology of men like Robert. A wife would have been completely different from any other woman to him: a wife is supposed to be virtuous and chaste, and thus should be a virgin at marriage, even with regards to him. He would not have pressed himself on her because he would have projected this onto her.
Sansa did not throw Rickon under the bus. What that shows is that Sansa really has few delusions left: and she also has no illusions about Ramsay acting at all “honorably.” Now, I would not call Jon a deluded individual: but he is a heroic one, and he has a “saving people” thing. As we’ve seen, he will go to great lengths to save someone, and even if he knows that the odds are against it, at his core, he won’t accept that he cannot until he’s seen it’s too late. However, one effect of Sansa’s time with Ramsay is that she now sees it as “too late.”
But this gets back to the issue of Sansa’s displeasure that they were not asking her about how Ramsay thinks. The mistake that everyone makes with Ramsay is that they assume that he’ll act like a good ex-bastard trying his hardest to fit in with the nobility. If anything, then he should be extra-chivalrous. In the end, even Roose made that mistake. The concept of a psychopath is only slightly closer to being within their grasps than the concepts of quantum mechanics are. Sansa gets this. Jon, who is the bastard working extra hard to be as honorable as possible, does not. (Indeed, Jon’s experiences would make him lean the other way from Sansa: he has found that there is “honor” in people who are not supposed to have it, even if the morals are slightly different from his own.)
hope jon will be better written this episode thye make him dumb the whole season…
Jaime doesn’t look very happy to be there, does he?
I read this recently in another forum and thought it was one of the better explanations of Jon’s parentage, if R+L=J. This was originally posted buy TMZ on Westeros.org. pretty much sums it up eloquently
Posted March 17, 2012
To be perfectly honest, I’ve always thought that R+L=J will end up being a deconstruction of the standard “hero turns out to be the king’s/prince’s long-lost son and heir” trope, not a fulfillment of that trope. Every time we see this trope in traditional fantasy, the hero’s “true” identity as a son of royalty ends up supplanting his “previous” identity; he uses his newfound royal lineage to seize the throne and bring peace to the realm, and he always embodies the characteristics of his royal parent, not his non-royal parent. Being the son of the royal family always ends up conveying tangible advantages to him—-we find out that his physical features, war prowess, and intellectual capabilities are incredibly similar to, and therefore derive from, those of the ruling family. Learning who his “true” father is always ends up being a positive, productive thing, not just for him, but for those around him—-the hero explicitly wants to be known as the ruler’s son, and the people of the realm look at each other and think “of course, this hero makes perfect sense as the ruler’s son”.
But with Jon, all of this is twisted on its head. Jon comes across to everyone that meets him as the embodiment of what it means to be a Stark, not what it means to be a Targ. Jon values the characteristics of House Stark, not House Targaryen. All of the advantages that have allowed him to succeed and grow have come from House Stark, not House Targaryen. Learning that his biological father was Rhaegar Targaryen won’t be a beneficial thing for him—-it will be devastating, because Jon isn’t going to think Rhaegar was superior to Ned, or that House Targaryen is better than House Stark, in any conceivable way.
And I think the whole point is that, perception-wise, there really isn’t loads of objective evidence that would convince a large number of people that Jon is Rhaegar’s kid (and thus, has some claim to the Iron Throne). Identity, both as a personal construct and as a socially-created construct, has been a major theme of these books.
Jon isn’t going to learn about R+L=J and decide to start calling himself Jon Targaryen, burn people alive, ride on the back of a fire-breathing dragon to roast his enemies, or move into the Red Keep. He’s not going to proclaim himself Rhaegar’s trueborn son and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.
Therein lies the deconstruction: being the long-lost son of royalty ends up being the worst possible thing for Jon, something that injures him emotionally, something that provides no actual benefits to him but which can only destroy the advantages being Ned’s son grants him.
There are a huge number of reasons for GRRM to have included R+L=J that have nothing to do with Jon gaining the Iron Throne. R+L=J can mean that Jon already fulfilled the AA prophecy in the circumstances of his birth: he was born at the end of a long summer (the 300-year reign of House Targaryen, who originated in Valyria (the Lands of the Long Summer), the builders/destroyers of Summerhall, etc.), while a star bled (Ser Arthur Dayne), out of smoke and salt (the colors of House Stark), etc. If Jon is Rhaegar’s biological son, then whatever prophecy made the Targs believe AA would come from them can be fulfilled via Jon–just with a twist, as Jon descends from the Targs but is not actually a Targ. Jon serves as a deconstruction of the Targs’ endless propaganda about their capabilities, as Jon succeeds because of Stark capabilities, not Targ capabilities. Furthermore, if Rhaegar married Lyanna before a weirwood, then what might matter is the weirwood part—Ned and Catelyn married in a sept, not a godswood, so from the POV of the Old Gods, Jon might actually be the only “legitimate” son of the House of Stark, and thus, the first in line for the throne of the King in the North.
Everybody in these books loses the part of themselves that they most value—Cersei loses her beauty, Jaime loses his sword arm, Bran loses his ability to climb, Sansa loses her world of chivalry, etc., etc. Jon’s POV makes it clear that the thing he loves most isn’t the Watch, or his honor, or anything like that—-it’s being a son of Eddard Stark and a brother to Bran/Robb/Arya/Rickon/Sansa. R+L=J steals that away from him. But perhaps the point isn’t about learning who his father was (because, in a very real sense, Jon already “knows” who his true father was—Ned). Perhaps the point that’s going to drive Jon’s story arc is learning about his mother, and the point is that Rhaegar wasn’t nearly as important, then or now, as he thought he was.
Man, I wish we had seen Alys this season. Her and Wylla Manderly would have been a great addition to Lyanna Mormont.
LL of Darkwater,
If it’s Robert+Lyanna, it doesn’t make sense why Rhaegar’s most trusted men (and best fighter Arthur Dayne) would be guarding Lyanna (and possibly her baby) at the TOJ.
George,
I feel like that last one was only recorded for that one teaser, just like Ramsay was recorded saying “Winterfell is mine, come and see!” just for that teaser with the banner. “We watch, we listen, we remember” is probably a deleted scene.
Thanks for clarifying this. Then, I don’t see any way for Jon to be legitimate if R+L=J is true. He’ll simply be Rhaegar’s bastard as polygamy is no longer accepted in Westeros.
Mihnea,
Yay thank you!
RG,
These are the many reasons why LF has to die at the hands of Sansa. Please, GRRM, D&D, make this happen! 🙂
Ugh. Me, too. I can’t deal. Haha! Super excited for the finale but I’ll be sad when it ends.
Corbyn Stark,
Wow interesting!! Thanks for this!
Ramsay is dead, which means there’s a chance Euron will take over as the new main human villain. If that’s what they planned going forward, they might be doing what they did with Ramsay back in season 3 when Joffrey was still the main human villain. They introduced him slowly with only a few scenes, then elaborate din him a great deal in the next season. If this is what happens with Euron, they he Will be set up as a big threat in the finale, just like Ramsay was in s3e10. That can happen in two ways I think. Either he does something horrific with great impact, or he is revealed to have a dangerous plan or weapon. Personally, We’ll get a scene with Euron and Aeron (who’s there mainly for Euron to have someone to interact with, other than representing the Iron born religion, looking awesome and making great speaches). Euron will reveal that he burned the Mereenese fleet, and that he has the dragon horn. Meaning that his scenes this season were merely an inteoduction to him.
I think her smile may have come from the build up of all the shit she has been through, to the point where she has finally taken revenge on ONE of her abusers. And I would also like to add that (hopefully) you have never had to endure what Sansa has been implied to have endured (since we didn’t see ANYTHING past the wedding night thank God), so you don’t really know how you would feel if you finally got revenge, and obviously this is a TV show so its going to happen by Hounds and be super gruesome/dramatic.
Not trying to change how you feel, just my two cents. 🙂
LadyStark,
everything you said!
viki,
Wow. This is very well written. Thank you. I also thought that Jon would be devastated when he learned Lord Eddard wasn’t his father.
no one,
Actually Tommen’s death is going to be hard for me to see. It’s sad.
Markus Stark,
You know, that’s something I haven’t really thought about but yeah, who let the dogs out? How did Sansa suddenly turn into a dog whisperer? Those beasts kind of had perfect timing didn’t they? Just another little detail they leave off screen for us to ponder. I don’t think it would ever be Jon’s idea but I guess if she asked him to do it he wouldn’t refuse her.
I actually like Tommen, mostly because Tyrion loves him. (I love Tyrion. 🙂 ) Also, he’s a sweet, innocent boy. I can’t help but feel for him.
Yeah they even throw a “send their regards” in to get us even more stressed.
I have a synopsis on episode 10 on my TV Guide APP
Dee Stark,
Wow, thanks! The sibs perhaps will discuss how they will rule the north together. (nope, I don’t buy that crap that they’d have a sibling rivalry) 🙂
How do we know the Frey celebration is at the Twins? I assumed Walder Frey had traveled to Riverrun to gloat over his prize.
Dee Stark,
I am so ready for this.
Everything is falling into place for the end game…
and its kinda sad…
I miss all the characters that we lost to get us here,
Sam,
Yeah, he’s just an innocent kid. I don’t get the hate for him, yet I guess people are just frustrated that he’s been such an ineffective king. I will be sad at his death.
MakeThemBurn,
Well, in the books
Does anyone think that the Blackfish threw Edmure under the bus and that he is therefore less honorable / his arc is shit? I haven’t seen that.
How should we call Tommen after his death, no spoiler just my opinion.
Tommen the wise
Tommen the kind
Tommen the just
Come with your own titles!
Blanche Holstein,
In the pictures, you see Bronn and Jaime riding a horse in armor. If they are hanging around Riverrun, it would not make sense for them to ride out. Also, in the promo for next episode, you can see the Twins from a distance right before the celebration. Could be just some editing, but Walder does not really seem like the kind of man that will travel from the Twins since he distrusts almost everybody, even his family.
Sam,
I really hope they don’t separate. Please Sam. Tell me they wont.
viki,
She doesn’t care about Rickon? Come on man. He was dead already like she said. Trying to save him was committing suicide like Ramsey did. The starks find it hard to put logic over emotions……lead to all their demise really. Ramsey could and would never let Rickon live. He is a true Stark. He is the rightful heir to the north with Bran lost in the wild. Ramsey knows that. Jon had no chance of saving him. When something is a fact, the sooner one accepts that the better they are for it.
People are trying to paint her as throwing her family under the bus for status. I just feel she has become calculating, and starts to accept things for what they are.
Dee Stark,
They won’t. They won’t. They won’t. 🙂
It’s not a clue, but I’ve always thought making Ned seem to be the protagonist was somewhat of a red herring. I don’t think a red herring has to be a clue. Just anything that throws a reader off the scent. Something misleading. In that case he has done it plenty of times.
I don’t think Jon necessarily needed to be involved in Sansa’s plan. He was going to handle Rickon’s burial at that time. All she had to do was go to the kennel master, whoever he was and say “I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell and I want to feed your dogs”, I don’t think he would have been able to refuse, even if he wanted to 🙂 >
Mihnea,
I like Tommen the Kind.
Or, Tommen the Gentle.
He’s probably still searching for the end of the world, mentioned by Arya. He lacks a decent education, you know.
HelloThere,
Im so so nervous!
Sam,
Tommen the Naïve
Mihnea,
I say Tommen the Blessed, like Baelor Targaryen the Blessed (a kind, overly zealous king when it comes to the Faith of the Seven much like Tommen)
ygritte,
Unfortunately, his death seems inevitable. He’ll have to be dead for Tyrion to be okay for Dany to take the Iron Throne (I think). He loves that boy (as well as Myrcella). If Dany and co. will arrive in Dorne, I wonder how he’d react to the news that Ellaria and the SS killed his beloved niece.
I actually don’t mind if they do. All my hype for Jonsa has gone. But it won’t happen. They will probably work out their differences and hopefully next season, their interactions will be less stressful. I expect more Stark re-unions in the coming season.
Wimsey,
Red herring probably the wrong phrase… I was kinda loosely referring to instances when one really feels as if a character is safe or is really going to die, and the opposite happens. Sudden (and sometimes horrifying) Plot Twists probably a better phrase. Mount Moehills… yep, I get that/those. .. the last few episodes being prime examples.
I just sort of kind of read Robert Baratheon a bit differently.
And it was just a thought. Not particularly tinfoil, just a little hiccup of a trace of a wondering.
In British history in Saxon times there was an “Aethelred the Unready”. He was not a boy king though. Tommen is a nice kid basically but not worldly-wise so perhaps “Tommen the Unready” might suit.
I also wonder how Ellaria and Co. would react to Tyrion. After all, Oberyn died defending Tyrion in the trial by combat. Would they blame him? They have not really been very rational in apportioning blame for Oberyn’s death. Some tension in their camp?
Dame of Mercia,
Good choice!
viki,
But Sansa didn’t know Ramsey was going to play his run away from my arrows game.
ghost of winterfell,
Oh yes. There’s definitely going to a massive tension there.
New photos are up:
http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery10/gallery.htm
ghost of winterfell,
Imagine the after dinner mess that poor kennel master has to clean up, eek. Then again guy’s used to it by now so eh. In Iwan’s exit interview when asked if the dog really got close to him in that scene and he’s like no way, they only would be dealt with by the trainer, they were vicious guard dogs and when they were walked through the set the actors couldn’t make any sudden movement, look them in the eye, etc. I just found that kind of funny because I had read a couple comments by probably lovers of that breed about how they were probably sweet dogs haha.
ygritte,
The dogs know Sansa, too. Ramsay wouldn’t have have them set to attack her on sight, only on command. And she wasn’t a nice half-dead rare steak like Ramsay was at that point. No big shock that they’d ignore her.
I have a feeling they will work out their differences. (*feeling hopeful) But yes, I got stressed whenever they fought so no more of that, please. Or, at least less of that. I expect Jon and Bran to meet next season. And Jon and Arya. That’s gonna be a cryfest for me.
Probably the Kennel master? While Ramsay is unconscious she got Ramsay’s Kennel Master to open them.. and cause Ramsay was a little Sh *t and ordered him to starve the dogs he loves..he obliged.
Do you dislike characters that are complex and have many conflicting emotions/motivations? Why shouldn’t she both be a badass and also have trust issues and also generally be good? Why should Sansa have to be either an uncomplicated badass OR a frightened little girl? Why not both?
See also: Jaime Lannister. Dany Targaryen. Tyrion Lannister. Arya Stark.
If you want simple characterizations and no character development maybe you should consider watching a different show…
Dee Stark,
Sansa and Jon’s future is all I care about!!!!
Molestown bastard,
I think so : the photo of Jaime leading his troops shows snow, and I don’t remember seeing snow in the Riverlands. But what for ?
Sam,
Not that I buy into the whole Robert Father thing. .. but if Rhaegar (and Dayne) didn’t actually realize it was someone else’s baby.
Just musings. Clouds that fluff through my addled brain in the wee hours before sleep takes over. Which it rarely does, seeing as how until Episode 10 of Season 6 airs, I shall be ruled by insomnia.
MakeThemBurn,
To separate Jaime and Cersei at the critical plot point of her trial.
THIS!!!
Sam,
Jon and Arya meeting better be intense ! I am looking forward to all reunions, but mainly Jon and Arya. The show so far has not really hinted at their special relationship, maybe they will once they meet. Sansa and Arya reuniting should also be interesting. Especially if they are accompanied by a scarred gentleman who has a soft spot for both 🙂 .
LL of Darkwater,
Jaime, your face, staaap it
I am really looking forward to this week. There are two huge question marks whose answers will largely be book spoilers, which I suspect we’ve only had a handful of so far this season. The two questions are who will die when King’s Landing burns, and what the hell is going to go down in the Riverlands. Both have so many possible permutations of characters and dangling TV and book plots that it is really hard to guess. The other storylines seem more straightforward – consolidation in the North, Dany’s launch, Bran’s vision, Sam arriving in Old Town, etc. Of course I’d love a twist in any of these, but am not expecting it.
Sam,
I really hope they don’t team up with Ellaria and SS. Can’t stand them. But since Tyrion isn’t in communication with anyone from KL he probably won’t know unless they decide to tell him or Varys comes back with the news of Myrcella right? And if they do, I don’t see how Tyrion deals with making an alliance with such people. Something else I was just thinking is about Varys getting so unnerved by the red priestess associating herself with Dany, just what did he think was responsible for her mystical dragons? And surely he heard the “whispers” of Dany’s progression through Essos with the blood magic ritual as well. Wouldn’t he and Jorah have a line of communication or am I remembering incorrectly?
Well said! This is typical of the Jaime redemption crowd.. he can’t love both Cersei and Brienne… maybe he can and he’s conflicted on the issue. He’s done really bad things and he’s done really good things, does it make him a Good Guy or a Bad Guy.. there isn’t one of those in Game of Thrones.
ghost of winterfell,
good point. I do hope they are less stressful
Listen to the soundtrack and you’ll know how it ends. I mean, the last track for the last scene.
Not this. Depending on what she knew and thought, she is either a dolt with complicated issues, or evil as all hell. Neither is something that is good for the story.
There is simply no good reason for her to have kept the Vale secret. If the battle had been delayed even a day, thousands of lives could have been saved…and there was no reason it couldn’t have been delayed for one day or a few.
If Sansa was a general in the US Army, she’d be court martialed in a heartbeat for what she did.
QueenofThrones,
This so much! well said!
viki,
Yep. .. this. ..mostly. only thing I wonder about, someone please ‘splain. .. or sum up if there is too much, about the Iron Throne.
Because, like, okay. The Baratheons are in power. (Okay, theoretically.) And yes, Dany is on her way and stuff. But for now, the Baratheons. So how would an heir of the Targaryan line be next up for the Throne? (Dany and the Dragons – cool band name – swooping in not yet withstanding.)
Just a distractionary musing.
Well personally I think the Blackfish threw Edmure under the bus 100% and I am not a fan of his. I also think he’s a stubborn fool for not going north and at least trying to do something worthwhile rather than getting himself and his men killed for no reason. His arc isn’t shit though – that’s just who he is, love it or hate it.
Mawk
Jaime would then be lead to find some honour back because reminded that he did not keep his promise, so he becomes the instrument of the vengeance with the Freys, and then leave for Winterfell.
Ummmm… what?
But the point is Sansa is a little of each of these things and more as well. It’s exagerating to say she’s “a dolt” – but it’s the case that she’s made some emotional/short sighted decisions. Nor would I say she’s “evil” (don’t believe people are “evil” except in rare cases) – but she’s made some calculated/ruthless decisions too.
In the pics. Jaime must stop being so handsome.
http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery10/hires/5.jpg
QueenofThrones,
If you want simple characterizations and no character development maybe you should consider watching a different show
And you should consider being as respectful of my opinion as I am of yours. If I wanted to read your every post and post something nasty in reply I could. But I don’t. Believe me there are plenty of posts I’d love to reply to but do not.
Ah, I see your point. Yeah, a lot of “theories” have swirled in my mind as well. Thankfully, they haven’t caused sleepless nights. Not yet, anyway. 🙂
To me, the biggest question is why Ned would pretend to be the father of Jon, risk his reputation, and cause pain to his beloved wife. The only compelling reason, it seems, is he wanted to protect Jon from Robert. Surely, Lyanna will know if the baby is Robert’s or not (even if Rhaegar and Arthur didn’t know). So if it’s Robert’s, she wouldn’t need to ask Ned to protect Jon.
Chad Brick,
For the love of God this is fiction.
The whole bloody story is made up.
But lets humor ourselves and pretend a young girl had to live through all the crap she had to deal with.
I would see that girl in a mental institution or in need of of serious counseling.
Apparently none of that exists in this make-believe kingdom of Westeros.
So she deals with it as best as she can.
Hell yeah, she has issues.
Before you judge her on one mistake she made, why don’t we look at her whole life story.
Just for once I would like to see a thread that does not get derailed by the ‘Sansa is evil, stupid etc’ crowds.
Take it to the forum and start a bitching thread.
Just because you aren’t able to understand her reasons, it doesn’t mean they don’t exist. This is something you should probably come to terms with if you’re ever going to deal with women in your life.
I think that there’s been sufficient plot, dialog and character building to establish for the majority of viewers why it is that Sansa would withhold her relationship, meeting and offer by LF, and they have all been cited here endlessly.
It’s not really a question of opinion as much as empathy. If you don’t get it, that should probably be telling you something.
ghost of winterfell,
Oh, I’d like that. I imagine their convo could be like this:
(after hugging it out and crying a little bit)
Arya: Sansa, look! Here’s my friend, Sandor. You know him, right?
Sansa: He’s your friend?
Arya: (shrugs her shoulder) Yeah.
Sansa: Hmmn. I’m actually not surprised.
🙂
Here we go again.
There are no brakes on the Sansa train!
I’m sorry the last bit was nasty – I just don’t think this is that kind of show and was going for a “mic drop” kind of statement to wrap up. I will try to be more civil. Have I been harassing you? I don’t remember replying to any post of yours before.
In general I’d say go ahead and reply to any post you like. Feel free to tell me you think I’m wrong anytime. :p
LL of Darkwater,
Dany will have to conquer the IT, in the same way that the Baratheons did. She has an army and her dragons to do it.
Arya’s List (my thoughts in italics)
Joffrey Baratheon: DeadCersei Lannister: No way she goes this season
Walder Frey: He’s gone I think
Meryn Trant: DeadTywin Lannister: DeadMelisandre: I think she hangs around cause she told arya they’d meet again. Davos did have crazy eyes after the battle though when he looked at her.
Beric Dondarrion: Please no
Thoros of Myr: See above
Ilyn Payne: This is a wash imo. nice read about the actor: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/10/wilko-johnson-interview-ive-got-a-future
Gregor Clegane: Hmm. I’ll say yes, he’s gone this ep.
Sandor Clegane: No way, right? He just came back!
That’s only two and I am not even confident about The Mountain.
Timmon the Timorous
Timmon the Trepidarious
Timmon the Tentative
Timmon the Tame
Timmon the Tractable
Timmon the Tenuous
Timmon the Trepidarious
Timmon the Temporary
LL loves alliteration
I can see why some of the regular off-season posters stay away from these threads.
Kay,
I doubt Jon would accept that. I seem to recall that he’s said before that Winterfell is Sansa’s. And I believe that Sansa, as Sophie has said, will have Jon’s back. She won’t turn on him. She’s going to turn on LF.
Sam,
Cersie… she did kinda go on a tear that time. .. well. .. lots of times. But there was that specific time.
Newbietothegame,
Uh huhhhh!!
It’s too much
iridium,
Sophie did say somewhere that “at the end of the day they have each other’s backs”
❤️❤️❤️❤️
I don’t feel any empathy for a character who put her petty personal issues in front of the lives of thousands of those following her and damned near her brother as well. Why should I? Either she understood that was what she was doing (evil) or didn’t (dumb). Neither option is good for the story.
If she tells Jon, they can delay and maximize the chances of pulling the Bolton forces into a Vale trap while minimizing allied casualties. Instead, their forces launched on a doomed Hail Mary mission, only slightly worsened by Jon’s failed heroics, and only bailed by storybook miracle timing.
What really drives me nuts about this silly subplot was that it was unnecessary. If the writers wanted a smart, good Sansa they just needed to have her come up with the plan to beat Ramsay (whereupon Jon almost screws it up by getting things started too soon and in the wrong position). Instead, there was no plan, just deus ex timing. If she knew when the Vale was coming, she is evil for using Jon and their men as bait. If she didn’t, she is just lucky, not smart.
QueenofThrones,
Oh… okay. (I was referring to the Loras Trial. I might not be paying close attention. A little too close to home. Too soon. Not the show’s fault. .. just bad timing.)
And as usual, Helen Sloan’s photos are incredible.
Do you hate the Blackfish too? Haven’t seen as many rants about him. He put his petty personal issues in front of the lives of his men, the Lannister men, and his own Nephew.
Sansa didn’t tell Jon about the Vale because it wouldn’t fit the now overused narrative of last minute intervention of a rescue party when all hope seems lost for the fan favorite hero. Unfortunately for Jon Snow, second time he finds himself as the damsel in distress in need of rescue.
Chad Brick,
Um no… Your option wouldn’t work for me at all.. Sansa is no military strategist to lay down plans to defeat Ramsay. That would just be unrealistic. And Jon screwing up because he saw his brother in danger, I can understand. But Jon making tactical errors the way you suggest would be character assassination, imo.
I did not like Sansa withholding info from Jon, too. But calling her trauma petty, personal issues is ridiculous, I am sorry.
Im in a training session at work and I’m bored. Let’s play
I’m so over the high sparrow
My death HOPES for episode 10
High sparrow
Pycelle
The mountain
Walder Frey and all his annoying sons
LF (oh please )
I doubt any of my hopes will come true except HS and pycelle
Also, over 85,000 votes for episode 9 on IMDb and still holding a strong 10
So amazing ???
QueenofThrones,
We can come up with as many examples of self-serving characters in GoT, but Sansa will always come up No 1 on the hit list. No point trying to convince them, the anti-Sansa brigade will continue until she dies.
I just hope Ser Pounce makes it out of the Red Keep.
I may be wrong, but at that time Cersei is not yet married to Robert. Hence, no way for Lyanna and Ned to worry that Cersei will have the baby killed.
I wouldn’t call the desire to defend ones home a petty personal issue, even in the modern world, let alone Westeros. But allowing thousands to die and putting both your own life and that of the only siblings you have left at risk so that you can avoid having a private conversation about an old guy that was creeping on you? Yes, that is petty, especially when she wouldn’t have to mention the creeping. All she needs to say is that she has a good relationship with LF, SweetRobin, Royce etc based on her time there and that they sent a private message to her while she was at CB. She held off responding but know sees the need for outside help.
Inga,
There was snow where Davos was at Shireens pyre. Which was nearby.
Dee Stark,
Weee! I’ve watched ep9 so many times already, it’s ridiculous. Haha!
Dee Stark,
Yes, she did say that. They’ll be all right. 🙂
Dee Stark,
Pycelle, Marg Tyrell, Tommen, Loras Tyrell, Walder Frey, Benjen?
Bodog,
*cough*
*cough*
Dee Stark,
I’ll include the killers:
The Freys at the hands of Arya
LF at the hands of Sansa
The Mountain at the hands of The Hound
By strategy I mean political alliances, not where to dig trenches. Sansa is perfectly well equipped for this, and could have overheard any plot-necessary points while in WF.
I am not suggesting any tactical errors for Jon other than the ones he actually made. Those were kind of silly, but could have been worked into a rational plot.
As for the abuse, it has no direct bearing on anything. She can reveal the Vale option without discussing any of her personal matters at all.
Bodog,
Benjen??? Already???? He has to stay with bran!!! No!!!!
I agree with your other ones likely happening
Sam,
I always do my rewatch right before the next episode
It makes me even more excited to do the Rewatch
And then in the offseason I imagine I wil rewatch everything a million times since this my favourite season thus far.
Season 4 and 5 are tied under it.
This ain’t a Disney movie mate
Sam,
I like the way you think
But I don’t think any of these will happen ????
Loras lookin’ sharp with that short ‘do. At least he’s going out like a babe. (Or – you know, spending the rest of his life with disfiguring wildfire burns.)
Amazing, and not surprising that the anti-Sansa tirades have their basis in rampant misogyny. I mean, god forbid if a woman is anything other than submissive victim or bad-ass conqueror. How do the misogynists communicate with people of the other sex – do you guys run and hide every time a woman walks up to you? Shame – for a woman at the head of this site, I would’ve have expected some editorial control over the comments. Perhaps its time for editors to take a stand, and ban misogyny here?
Ser Pounce for Westeros. Make Westeros meow again!
Aw, I was just joking, having fun with it. Of course I don’t think that’s how it will go down. 🙂
Sam,
Yeah, but there was all kinds of murder going on. .. the wife, any wife, of Robert might be looking out for blood.
And the other theory(ies) have been written about so often I’m just tossing out things that might have been underthought/underdiscussed… just changing the threads around.
But mostly, the tinfoil had been removed from my hat. Mostly. I’m still rolling stuff around.
Dee Stark,
I know! D&D, can you give us at least one of those?
Sam,
Please ???
So only by the pictures ,trailer and soundtrack+ spoilers.
There will be 3 Dany scenes :
Dany+Tyrion
Dany+Daario
4 Jon scenes
Talking with Sansa
Talking with Davos and Mel
3 Sansa
Talking with Jon
Talking with LF
4 Jaime
Arriving to the Twins
Talking with Walder Frey
Talking with Bronn
2 Tyrion
Dany+Tyrion
Dany+Ships
1 Arya
3 with Cersei
When they come to get her.
1 Bran
1 Sam
1 Dorne
Seems like a good episode.
This makes sense. Look at the photos at the Twins. Bronn appears where Walder has been sitting in one of the shots. Why would that happen? The old man doesn’t like to walk around much.
He’s been deposed/disposed of, and Bronn has taken his seat.
Chad Brick,
… but Littlefinger, Ramsay and Cersei have rubbed off on her now.. she may of used Jon’s rashness to her advantage.. get the Boltons totally drawn into the battle then hit them from behind.. losing thousands of men and possibly Jon.. but regaining Winterfell. Or she set the trap for Ramsay, telling Jon who would inevitably tell Davos and Tormund would compromise this.. so she withheld. Who’s to say Ramsay wouldn’t of discovered the Vale army was lying in wait and just stayed behind in Winterfell…. who’s to say Littlefinger wasn’t in commune with Sansa.. and as much as she pleaded with him that she needed to tell Jon, he told her it would mean certain defeat. You just don;t have the information available to label Sansa, the conversations between Littlefinger, Jon and Sansa in the next episode will inform us more.
Demon Monkey,
Some things I always puzzled over: Didn’t Robert, once comment that he was in great $$ debt to the Lannisters, and had to put up with a lot because he couldn’t afford to get on their bad side? Marrying Cersei was part of that thinking, a bargain with the Lannisters.
So looking past all of Robert’s adolescent mooning over Lyanna, I have to wonder if, once the rebellion was over & he had won, if Lyanna was still alive, would he have risked his crown for her? Because he would’ve needed to keep the Lannisters on his side more than worrying about the Starks.
I think while Ned loved Robert as his friend, he probably wasn’t enthused at the idea of Lyanna being with him. Robert blames a lot of his own shortcomings on his loss of Lyanna, but his personality was set before that. Clearly Lyanna was not someone he would have been able to control. Tywin knew he was weak which is why he supported him.
Chad Brick,
You are mistaken. Life experiences effect people’s psyche.
Her experiences are the cause for her judgments.
Ugh I need spoilers to calm my nerves
Maggie,
It’s gonna be a great episode. Cant’ wait. I’m hoping your “1 Arya” does happen.
My biggest questions now besides the obvious are will we see Sam and Gilly in the finale, and will we see The Hound in the finale.
????? That Frey dinner is probably the most awful thing each one of them have ever been. They look kind of pissed/bored/confused.
LL of Darkwater,
Yeah, it can be fun tossing these theories around. Who knows, maybe GRRM is just trolling us and Ned is actually Jon’s dad. But, I’d really like it to be Rh+L (not Ro+L).
Ohhhh man if Jon and Sansa make up next episode
Shit is gonna hit the fan here!!!!! Lol
New thread. .. yes please. .. I’ll have one of those.
Directors’ Cuts. I hereby demand that D&D, at the end of the series, release a Directors’ Cut Extended Edition of the entire series. All episodes must be at least 75 minutes long, include behind the scenes, interviews, award reels, soundtracks, screen tests, and bloopers. In really cool leather-bound cases… with sigils. And stuff.
So mote it be and make it so.
They do it or we riot.
Who’s with me?
BranTheBlessed,
If Jon would win every single battle by his own superior prowess then people will call him a Gary Stu. Someone who is so perfect, he’s boring. Jon is not a super hero, he’s a brave and selfless person who tends to bottle up his feelings/emotions to the point that when he allows them to come to the surface, he looses control over them. Is anyone really surprised at Jon running after Rickon or running in fury at Ramsay’s forces after witnessing the death of his baby brother? If you are, you haven’t been paying attention to who Jon is.
This would be cool. Bronn only needs a wife after he gets a big castle! I’m sure Arya will also be doing something, but the idea of the Starks still being involved through a kept promise is good, too. Seems logical for Jaime to execute that, seeing as how he’s got a large force of Lannister soldiers.
LL of Darkwater,
Me!
Tyrion and Varys knew about the defeat of Stannis by midseason, and that’s from a location considerably more remote. It would strain credulity if they hadn’t heard about Myrcella’s murder.
I’d be down with that. I’ve been waiting to buy the series until all the seasons have been released. They make cool, collector’s editions for single seasons. The box set is sure to be awesome.
I’m hoping she says it to both. My hope is that Jon is a better man than I, particularly since I’m not a man at all, and thus will forgive Sansa completely and then accompany Sansa to the Winterfell godswood to meet Petyr, hence the surprised look at seeing both Sansa and Jon (similar to the Brienne surprise at Mole’s Town).
Danny,
I honestly love how jons role in the battle played out
It was good to see the struggle in him between life and death. And running to save rickon mirrored the times he wanted to help his family in the first few seasons at the cost of his brothers , saving the wildlings at the risk of his brothers… It made so much sense
Him almost dying and then pushing so hard not to die in the stampede had much greater meaning to me than him being a perfect commander to win a battle with a perfect army blabla
Dee Stark,
LOL! I expect shit to hit the fan here then!
Yeah, he was actually trying to save his men and castle by not giving it up. He has no reason to trust the Freys or Lannisters if they give up the castle. They could all be immediately slaughtered. Plus, since all the lands were given to the Freys it’s not like they even have a home to go to if they’re allowed to leave. I’m still interested to see what happens to those men.
Rickon was in a tough spot either way and Jon/Sansa were likely going to have to battle Ramsay no matter who joined them. Maybe they could have negotiated something if the Vale showed up earlier to increase their army. Ramsay wanted to kill them all if possible.
There was no negotiating the blackfish could do to better his position…and potentially letting all his men die to save Lord Edmure (when he is no longer a lord once they surrender) really makes no sense.
Too true! That’s exactly right. What about, “We watch, we listen, and we remember”? Obviously I’m not part of that “we” because this royal we doesn’t remember so well. And what about Bran’s line: “They have no idea what’s going to happen”? Have we heard either of these?
Ghosts Lunch,
He hates every house.
“Stark, Tully, Lannister, Baratheon… Give me one good reason why I should waste a single thought on any of you.”
He worked with the Lannisters when they had Tywin and power in Kings Landing, because it benefited him, and will happily kick them while they’re down, if it benefits him.
Newbietothegame,
God have mercy on our souls.
Dee Stark,
Walder Frey.
Tommen.
Mace/Loras Tyrell.
Pycelle.
Doubt LF will go. But I do suspect he will have a really bad day.
Danny,
Just leave them be. They will not change their mind, judging by that kind of comments, and you will never agree anyway. Just fill the thread with hate/rants…etc.
It’s fine to have opinions and all that but this is getting seriously out of hand.
The train has derailed. Put it out of it’s misery…
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH….I can never tell if people use looses to troll people like me who can’t stand it or if they don’t realize their mistake….but it just happens so often!
The main problem with Sansa arriving with the Knights of the vale is that she showed up riding with little finger. That requires a high level of orchestration which indicates withholding the info from Jon in a dark-cunning way, leading to unnecessary deaths. I love Sansa but I just don’t see a way (based on the writing) where she comes out looking good. First time poster but long time reader
I hope soooo
Can you elaborate? How?? What bad day with out death?? Lol
Ginevra,
I actually thought we have been hearing all the promo lines. Some people have mentioned they make voice overs for promos that might not be in the show…but even just last week we got the Tormund line for the *man to lead us through the long night* and some people had maybe given up on hearing that.
I wasn’t sure how they’d fit it in but Davos and him chatting about their old kings worked great.
Dee Stark,
He is going to get it at some point for sure. He set all of this in motion with convincing Lysa to write that Letter to Catelyn blaming the Lannisters….he betrayed Ned….
and even though Lysa is dead, someone out there has to know the truth. So I don’t think he will die until Sansa or Jon finds out the complete truth….maybe from Varys or Bran?
Dee Stark,
What happens if they make out instead? After a Bran vision?
Les cousins dangereux
Instead of Sansa’s hand he gets Moat Cailin. LOL.
Dee Stark,
I think Sansa will agree to whatever plans he has and wait until the Vale knights pledge to her, then turn on LF.
rhymeswithweak,
THE ROOSE IS LOSE
He was letting his men die anyway, Lannister numbers are huge. He just choose them to die for HIS home. Because HIS home worth more than their lives.
Blackfish,Sansa, Cersei, Robb, Catelyn….never cared for the smallfolk. I think that’s a fact. It’s a story for Nobles.
Very few characters characters in the books/show think the common people lives worth the same as theirs. Most if them see them as numbers,
Dolorous Methuselah,
And remembering what you said about “dolorous” last week, I am a native speaker – English is really my only language although I’ve dabbled in two others – and I didn’t know the definition until GoT. That’s the biggest reason, by far, I love reading on a Kindle. I just double-click the word I don’t know, and it freaking gives me the definition!!!! That’s mighty handy when I read Margaret Atwood, but I use it a good deal on practically every book I read.
QueenofThrones,
Thank you. Sorry if mine was snippy as well. I had to leave for work and should not reply so quickly. I didn’t mean your previous posts specifically, more some of others. But that got lost in my haste.
BTW, I do like rich characterizations and would love if Sansa has one. I actually like the Sansa this season moreso than in prior seasons. I am not a Sansa hater, not that there is anything wrong with that. 🙂 I like her new assertiveness and think that she is becoming quite the game player.
Jamie’s arc in the books and maybe in the show in the future is one of my favorites. Got to run or I’d reply more.
And BTW and this is not to you but to two other posters and their posts on this thread as well as most others they’ve been on not to me specifically but in general, I will not have a meltdown or anything resembling that whatever happens Sunday night. What happens, happens, and then next April we will see what happens next. I love the show but can still can question things about it.
This is very disapointing
We can derail the thread with Sansa. And hundreds of other topics.
But we completely ignore Danyara…. Shame! Shame!
Regarding the Frey dinner scene:
Chuck,
The Hound! That reunion will have to happen.
Chuck,
I cant wait that long 🙁
Mihnea,
this is your prediction for the finale?
rhymeswithweak,
LOL!!
Yup, this is where Dany and Jon are different from others and similar to each other.
Arghh, can’t believe I got sucked into that.
You think this will happen? I saw more mutual respect.
But then there was that clip with Dario and she had tears in her eyes. Saying farewell maybe?
Dee Stark,
For the North story? Kinda yes. Hoping more then anything else though….
As a final shot? No. That will be Dany leaving for Westeros with all her army
Mihnea,
Can I say I prefer Yany? 🙂 .
rhymeswithweak,
Completely trolling you because that’s what drives me to get out of bed every morning. But not really, English is not my native language.
I would say more Jaime and Arya, but they don’t rule like Jon or Dany, they just have the biggest interaction with regural people.
Sacred Lime,
I’m sure everyone hated Ramsay in Winterfell. His own men must have arranged everything in the Kennels … Ramsay killed his own men with arrows. Did you notice the soldier face after Ramsay killed Rickon??? I’m pretty sure everyone is happy he lost the battle.
Maggie,
?????
They are riverrun men…yes they had lost their lands already to the Freys and this was the last home left…and it happens to be that of the Blackfish.
What if they hanged all the men after surrendering? They had provisions for two years in a very defensible castle. He knows the Starks are now trying to take back the north. What if he holds the castle for six months and then the North rallies around the Starks and comes to aid him? He and the Starks both want to crush the Freys.
His choice was good for him and his men.
Did you noticed the difference between Jon and Daeny. Daeny proposed to burn masters, their ships and soldiers. Tyrion advises against it and she agreed. They came up with a better plan. Jon on the other had ignored Sansa and almost lost battle. One is willing to learn and other not. This is going towards people who are claiming Daeny will stubbornly look at Stark as usurpers. Tyrion will tell her and she will understand.
Newbietothegame,
Don’t pretend it isn’t better then the Sansa ”debate”
Well in the books Dan does have some lesbian experiences. So why not.
Realistically though, I expect some more ”flirting” moments but nothing else.
I do think she’ll break with Daario though.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2016/06/23/thrones-audience-rises-helped-streaming/86194300/
23.3 million 😀
Dee Stark,
It does sound ”cute” but I don’t think this suits our ladies!
Funny thing, it reminds me of ”Yarny” a video game character, who is indeed very cute!
Tyrion looks pretty sad in the last picture. I bet Danny told him she was going to kill Jaime or something like that. He must be scare for his family. He doesn’t know yet Myrcella died and most likely Tommen will die shortly before their arrival.
Maggie,
He just choose them to die for HIS home.
Take Sansa out of it for a moment (my Sansa thoughts below). This statement is not fair to the BF. That’s the men’s home too. Where are they supposed to go now? And do you really think the RR troops are getting a pass from the Freys or Lannisters? Edmure might get a normal life but the rest are done. Letting them go about their business now? That would be a 180 for the Freys/Lannisters. They (Freys/Lannisters) have to make an example of them. If they don’t they’ll just rebel again according to show logic.
Sansa: using Jon’s army as bait is just so much simpler than the alternative (unless the alternative can be explained to me?). I like Sansa baiting Ramsay with Jon. It works. It’s deep. It’s clean. The alternative just gives me a headache.
Rhaenys Stark,
Streaming will become only bigger.
This is what ”hurts” the ratings, we get, the most.
Mihnea,
Why would she break with Daario? I can see it only if he betrays her but it doesn’t look like it. He seems to be devoted to her. Yara and Daeny is my favourite ship along with Tormund and Brienne.
Sunday seems so far away, but after this NEXT YEAR will be so far away…ugh…I don’t want this to end, but know it must.
Tycho Nestoris,
But they did…. They clearly disarmed and were allowed to leave.
Next episode will make your head explode then….
Geralt of Rivia,
He isn’t fit to be with a queen?
Don’t really have any arguments to support this, just my feeling.
Yeah, you missed the point.
Mine was D&D’s portrayal of Jon Snow is sometimes at the expense of his character. They try to over-play his ‘hero’ card and make him look a bit dumb in the process. Its the same with Deanerys too.
The first where Stannis saves Jon from Mance Ryder. In the book, Janos Slynt and Thorne command Jon to go to the Wildling camp alone and murder Mance. Jon is reluctant to do so because he’s smart enough to realize it was Slynt’s way of giving him a death sentence. In the show, Jon takes matters into his own hands and walks into Mance’s camp. Heroic? yes; Dumb? also yes.
I’m interested to see how GRRM writes the battle for Winterfell. I can’t say for sure but I doubt book!Jon will be going to any war knowing he has only half the number of men his enemy commands.
Danny,
lol, sorry to be that grammar guy…but looses instead of loses seems to happen more and more now. I think that since people keep seeing looses it is fueling the use of it even more.
basically, looses should never be used…for anything
Da fuck is going on in Meereen now? What’s with all the sad faces?
Geralt of Rivia,
That is not a very eloquent argument at all. Jon was acting out of emotion after witnessing his baby brother being hunt down like prey. His reaction, regardless of Sansa’s warning, was understandable for anyone who is not cold-hearted or a robot. I’m glad Dany is willing to listen because she has some seriously dark tendencies but in no way can you compare both situations. I wonder if Dany would have listened to Tyrion if the Masters had put a dagger in Missandei’s heart in front of her. I’m willing to bet that she wouldn’t have listened.
Mihnea,
That didn’t make sense to me either. That is a complete break in character for the Freys and Lannisters.
Where are the troops going? It’s more likely they join BwoB than anything but they’ll likely just melt away to be forgotten, happily ever after.
My head will not explode. Please stop telling me what will happen to me (this is not the first time). I enjoy speaking with you, but the superiority complex is grating.
BranTheBlessed,
That is literally what he wanted to do in the books.
Tycho Nestoris,
Home. The war is done. RR was their only chance.
It’s exactly like in the books…..
It was a joke, mate. Relax.
No it wasn’t. He doomed them the first moment he decided to reclaim just a castle in the middle of a land that is controlled by Freys with a couple of soldiers. He made a stupid war for a stupid castle…for honour, for dying in his home. Freys would still get the castle after his death, through Edmure’s child. So this was a war for nothing.
You think Starks have great power now? North always had much less army than Lannisters and they have now lost half of it because of that war for Winterfell. Lannister and Freys are still a larger army than them.
Also North…had to pass from Twins to go to Riverrun, that’s how Robb died… it doesn’t make sense.
BranTheBlessed,
When Jon went to Mance on his own, it didn’t feel dumb to me
And I didn’t feel like he was dumb in episode 9 either. Emotional, yes. I never thought he was dumb though.
It’s interesting to see how audiences interpret things differently ?
8 episodes in a row without Dorne,quite some time.They need to show us something in the finale and I think they will.
Mihnea,
I thought he’ll bertray her with Harpy but now he looks to be fully with her. I mean as long as she is happy but long term she needs someone else to be with. He’ll go with her to Westeros but who knows with them. Tyrion pointed out that neither Daario or Jorah are fit to be her Queen’s consort.
Geralt of Rivia,
That’s a stretch. Tyrion is wiser than all of them and Dany had already realized that.
Jon asked Sansa for ideas…she didnt say let’s brainstorm…she just said “I dont know, just dont do the wrong thing”
Please don’t start this. Did you notice no difference in how specific they were in their advice? Jon did not take Sansa’s warning to heart because it sounded very obvious and vague to him (even though she was right). And no, he did not lose the battle because he was too arrogant to listen to Sansa, rather because he could not see his brother being targeted with arrows by a madman and not do anything about it. Sheesh!!
Dee Stark,
Book-readers more like.
I doubt any show only watcher thought what Jon did was dumb. In either cases.
RJ,
Lol!
I think some people are staying behind
Ser Gerold Dayne,
All locations will get scenes in my opinion.
No photos of Jon and Sansa at Winterfell? Weird.
Mihnea,
Jokes are fine. It’s things like “Relax” that sound like you are trying to parent people.
Where is home though? The Freys control the land. They have no home left.
Dee Stark,
Actually going into his camp was smart. If he managed to kill Mance, Free Folk would’ve be without a leader and Mance was the reason why they were united under one army.
Alan the Tall,
Maybe Walder Frey doesn’t want to fulfil what Jaime promised to Edmure. He wants to keep Edmure as prisoner or even kill him. Jaime would be pissed. Bronn could marry one of the Frey’s daughters and kill everyone else to inherit the Twins.
But I wanted Arya to kill Walder Frey. However, it would be cooler if Arya just appears in Winterfell.
Tycho Nestoris,
Of course they do. The Frey’s didn’t burn their homes…..
Remember that farmer guy in S4, Arya and the Hound met. He seemed pretty anti-Frey, yet still had a house/a farm…etc.
Geralt of Rivia,
This.
BranTheBlessed,
Well, book! Jon was very intent on marching to Winterfell to save Arya. That didn’t happen, true, but not because he wasn’t willing to. He was stopped by daggers in the night. I am not criticizing Jon at all for this decision, when I read it I couldn’t have loved him more for it but Jon does act out of emotion from time to time. I don’t see that as dumb, I see that as the understandable behavior of a 16-17 year old (20-21 in the show?) who was forced into a leadership role he wasn’t really prepared for. He’s doing the best he can, and always with the best of intentions. However, I would say that the one time I felt D&D were doing a disservice to the character was during season 2, in my eyes they have corrected that course well enough. Book! Jon and Show! Jon are now in my eyes very similar. Kit gets who Jon is.
To be honest, we really shouldn’t make concrete judgement about characters based on the show as they flip-flop from episode to episode. ‘Consistent’ is not exactly a term you can use wrt to them as we’ve seen a few instances of characters contradicting their words/actions of previous episodes.
ghost of winterfell,
He almost lost because he underestimated Ramsay and his mind games. When he said to Sansa he fought worse Beyond the Wall. Sansa replied “you don’t know him”. Which is what Sansa warned him about. Ramsay is psycho but actually smart one. Also that Rickon is dead and which he was. Ramsay would never let him live. Those two scenes goes hand in hand. Also when Jon and GW talked about Ramsay and master not anting to fight for their own men. These scenes have their purpose to mirror each other, also Jon’s Mhysa moment. I could be wrong but feel like this have a purpose.
nvm
Also, S6 is now most watched season ever with 23 million http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/23/game-thrones-ratings
Maggie,
Let’s have your better proposed plan then shall we?
Plain and simple for me is live to fight another day. Surrendering the castle might have meant instant death to all.
Where were the Tully men going to go to not die? Just give up and ask if they can join the Frey army that betrayed them? Go to the north to see if they can join some other house under the Bolton’s lead?
I specifically said the Starks are trying to retake the north and might rally them…they dont have to march south after. The Freys alone wouldnt leave the twins to take on a unified North under the Starks.
Northern lords must also have some idea that kings landing is screwed right now…so the lannisters might not be able to go fighting other wars.
Live to fight another day – best move for the tully men – it definitely will have been the better choice if the Freys get what’s coming to them next episode.
I don’t think we know enough to definitively say who the North will want as their leader. I want Jon, even though Sansa’s claim is certainly greater. But I think the whole Battle of the Bastards through proper claim, primogeniture, and properness out the window. In truth, the King of the Seven Kingdoms is supposed to appoint the Warden of the North. But that’s not what is happening. Jon and Sansa and the Wildlings and the Vale took Winterfell – stole it – from the officially appointed person. So who gets to rule may not follow primogeniture. Even though it would be fairly unprecedented to have a bastard, I think it could happen in this circumstance.
What will definitely happen is King or Queen instead of Warden. Warden would be silly considering that everything they’ve just done in taking back Winterfell flies in the face of the rulers of the Seven Kingdoms, and so they may as well secede and claim independence.
Markus Stark, Mrs. Podrick Payne,
Yes. And thank you to all who’ve replied and corrected me.
Ravyn,
Well deserved.
Glad it’s a success.
Mihnea,
They left though. Why would Walder let them go back to their homes (see land)? That’s Walder’s now. He’s just going to give it back b/c they surrendered?
It’s not something I think the show needs to answer. I just thought it factored into BF’s decision. BF certainly didn’t trust Jaime or Walder to honor a surrender with land.
Even the new photos don´t reveal shit =(
Geralt of Rivia,
Sansa was the one who started accusing him by saying that he was planning the battle with all his “trusted advisors” but did not bother to ask her opinion. His consequent replies were the result of him getting on the defensive after this. Besides, maybe he replied the way he did because he did not yet trust Sansa’s opinion because they did not really know each other at all. And Jon was right too. Sansa has no idea what he has faced either. It was a case of them both being unable to relate to each other.
And if it was anything other than his brother’s life in danger, he wouldn’t have fallen into his trap so easily. It was not arrogance, it was emotion.
Grey Worm and Jon pretty much said the same thing to the opposing soldiers. This shows Dany and Jon operate on very similar values. I really don’t see how this is a negative against Jon.
Tycho Nestoris,
He isn’t going to take every single shack and farmhouse.
He is the Lord of the Riverlands, that is all that matters to him.
Those were common soldiers, not high lords with castles.
Geralt of Rivia,
To be fair, you can’t really compare the situation. Do you think if someone Dany loved had been killed in front of her that anything Tyrion said would have made a difference? I have a girl suffocating in a vault and a witch burning in a fire that beg to differ.
Dee Stark,
YES
Dee Stark,
Get ready then-kind of looks like they make up in the preview. Hoping 🙂
NEW PICS-
So they only want to give us those 3 scenes huh? Just Frey dinner, Dany chat, and HS with Loras. (Bran is just lounging-not counting him)
What do those 3 have in common imo? They are all taken before or after someone-or multiple someones are killed (Bran will see death in vision)
Also Bronn has his laying down knowledge with humor and sass face on and Jaime looks pissed. Talking to Walder can do that to a person.
I wonder if they got news of the BOB or Cersei’s trial… Or is it something about Brienne? Or did the Freys just decide to kill Edmure instead of letting him go to Casterly Rock? I know Walder brought up Cat and Red Wedding. He can’t help himself.
PS-I definitely agree we’ll be seeing a lot more than we’re being shown in preview or pics.
Molestown bastard,
I Dont think so , assuming that daenerys and tyrion Are gonna sail to westeros , when they land next season , all cersei is going to think bout , will be The valonqar , and The younger queen of The profecy .
Geralt of Rivia,
Um first Sansa gave no concrete advise.Second Dany didn’t have to see her little brother run towards her.What was he supposed to do not try to save him?Jon is one of characters most willing to learn and listens to practically everybody.That I agree that she and the starks will not be enemies but your argument makes no sense.Also Dany would have been incredibly stupid not to listen to Tyrion she needed the ships and there was no emotional attachment there contrary to Jon’s case
The pie’s served up special.
He risked his life on a whim that on the 1% chance he manages to strike and kill Mance in his own tent, the free folk would suddenly disband and go back to their homes. Not very smart, is it?
The final scene will be
Snowy Jonsicle,
Thank you for the reply!
rhymeswithweak,
What Kings Landing has to do with Lannister Army? Westerlands can rise a big army, North had a smaller army than them even before Robb’s war.
Blackfish was alive, they were alive after the RW. They RECLAIMED the castle. which means they were alive under Freys and took the castle again.
I think just because Blackfish was a cool character, it’s hard to understand..
but he wasn’t the lord, he didn’t had heir… he was old. He just made a war for some years, even if he died from natural causes Freys would still get the castle and kill everyone there for traitors.
I think that’s the story of Blackfish, to show Jaime taking the castle without blood and show the vain of war. Riverlands always suffered from various wars from different lords who never cared about them, only through Arya’s and Jaime’s POVS we see some of the horror they have to suffer.
I guess I don’t see why we need Sansa to come out of this looking ‘good?’ Isn’t the whole point that she’s changed and she’s no longer the exact same person. The goal was to take back WF, and she’s playing the game now and she played her hand the way she did for a reason, to ensure a victory the best way she could. She made sure that goal was accomplished. She didn’t trust Jon, which I guess is the biggest bone people have to pick with her, which is fair, but not because she believes he’s untrustworthy but because she couldn’t guarantee he wouldn’t fall into one of Ramsey’s traps (which he did despite warning).
That being said, it’s easier for Sansa to accept Rickon’s death because she’s not on the battle field, having to watch it happen. Sansa has the advantage of looking at this from a very strategic/abstract POV which allows her to think more clearly. Whereas it’s very real for Jon, and I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t at least TRY to save their brother. In the end though, she ended up being right.
This is all really complicated and I’m ok that Sansa didn’t make a ‘righteous choice.’ Her character is becoming more gray, more interesting, and I wish we could allow her to be that without people declaring her evil and expecting her to turn on Jon and conspire with LF. There are plenty of characters on this show we love despite awful things they’ve done, and what Sansa did is barely top 50 of the worst things that a beloved GoT character could do.
The more I think about it the more fascinated I am with the changing dynamics of Jon and Sana’s relationship. Jon has a lot to learn from his sister now that he’s back back in Winterfell, and Sansa will have to learn to trust Jon if they’re going to survive.
You know I’ve been thinking right along that we aren’t going to get resolution from this scene. I will be delighted to be wrong, but I can’t get my hopes up. I am sure we’ll hear Lyanna say, “promise me, Ned,” as I have said before but I think that is all we/Bran will see or hear. I just keep thinking about George saying “a bittersweet ending” and don’t have a huge warm and fuzzy that Jon will ever find out he isn’t a bastard.
rhymeswithweak,
I agree with you! ‘Looses’ instead of ‘loses’ is annoying.
Geralt of Rivia,
I noticed that while watching the episode – Dany listened and Jon did not. I would not hold it against Jon, though. Dany was being advised by Tyrion, someone who was a successful Hand of the King. Also Dany was not forced to any emotionally difficult situation like watching a loved one getting killed (at Meereen, that is). Sansa does not have Tyrion’s reputation for being good at politics or battle. Jon remembers her as the little girl who believed life was a song. Sansa’s advise was vague, yes, but if it was Tyrion who gave the same advise to Jon, he might have paid more attention – nothing would have stopped Jon from galloping to save Rickon, though.
BranTheBlessed,
Better then certain defeat, that loomed over them.
Without Mance the Wildlings would have been saverly weakened. He was the one with strategy, tactics….etc.
Look how Tormund reacted to those.
The Wildlings listed because they respected him, any new leader would face stiff opposition. It was a strategicly sound plan, filled with bravery and courage because he was ready to sacrifice himself.
And not a single person I ever met, on the internet or real life, thinks any other way of this plan.
RG,
I just argued for #1 (though my comment has floated away into the ether of moderation) and I love your #2 reason. I don’t agree that #s 3 and 4 are relevant. Sansa, if Queen Regnant, would be the boss of her husband (I do like the sound of that!) and all the soldiers would be sworn to follow her command. Marriage in this case wouldn’t make a man king but would make him king consort or prince consort.
But yes, the conqueror is almost always the crowned, like Robert and George Washington (not actually crowned). Davos and Tormund (and probably everyone else) see Jon as the conqueror. Davos even says, “Follow your commander.” If Sansa brings up how she brought the Vale in to save everyone’s asses and the day, which she did, that might lead to people wondering when Sansa knew what she knew, and the truth would not win her too many northern friends.
Maggie,
Yes he reclaimed the castle as they were dead men walking any other way…all lands were given to the Freys.
The Freys slaughtered more Tullys and northern men earlier while they were drunk celebrating at the red wedding under guest rights. They would find no solace elsewhere so taking the castle back that they know inside and out was their best chance at survival.
You just keep telling me I’m wrong without offering other ideas for the Tully men…give me something to ponder Sansa.
tiny direwolf,
In the books, Cersei was the queen regent after Joffrey and Tywin’s death. She was even titled ‘first of her name, protector (ha!) of the realm etc’ in the appendix of Feast for Crows. But she was only ruling in the name of her son. With no Baratheons left, the realm need not bow to Cersei. If it was a lordship, the childless widow of the lord can be the ruler (Lady Dustin and Lady Hornwood from the books), not sure about Iron Throne. Cersei would want to be queen, of course. The Lannisters are still the most powerful family. But, their army is currently at Riverlands, and it is the Tyrell army that is present in King’s Landing. She’ll have to do something about it.
I’m Missing Jorah so much. My fave character. I don’t see a straight forward greyscale death for him. It’s too predictable for GoT. I think there’s more to come for Jorah and Dany. The rest of the season has been amazing though.
How they were dead men alive, if in the show they lived 2 YEARS after the red wedding without being in the castle.
Frey’s did made the Red Wedding but both show and books had the fathers/brothers of the people in the Red Wedding being alive after that. So they didn’t get into the castle to save their lives.
What Blackfish could do is accept that the war was over, and not try to kill his men…since he had no future for them. Maybe he could use them in the future to support his niece…i don’t know.
Dying for a relatives> Dying for some rocks.
He couldn’t get his lands back, he didn’t had any title or any heir….even if he won …he could take just the castle for some years before his death from natural cause.
Its Jaime’s home? The Twins is Jaime’s? How so? Or do you think they are at Casterly Rock, which is Jaime’s home? Or Riverrun, which is … Whose home is Riverrun? The Frey’s, right? But which particular Frey?
SoCalGal,
I saw Bran on a horse in the first set of pics. I did get my eyes checked recently – do I need to again? 🙂
Just passing by and enjoying the RR/Blackfish debate.
Keep it up!
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
Jon Connington would disagree with you.
ghost of winterfell,
Oh, yes she was. After Lysa falls, LF turns to Sansa and helps her up, IIRC
BranTheBlessed,
Jon is honorable and does the right thing, even when it’s not the smart thing. He puts other people’s welfare ahead of his own. He makes unpopular decisions (wildlings) because he sees the bigger picture. He would never ask people to do something he wasn’t willing to do himself. And yes-he’s been willing to sacrifice himself to save others.
This is actually why men follow him. He’s a natural leader who inspires loyalty in the people around him, and it’s clear that everyone saw it early on (Aemon, LC Mormont, Stannis, Davos)
I think on occasion, heart is more important than brilliant strategy.
Differently yes , and I do believe some people are just itching to start a debate. Just once I’d like to not see any snarking…lol.
Sansa’s story I’m very interested in. I’m still not sure how to read what’s going on there. On the one hand I suspect Jon will shrug it off and there was no greater plot point to her withholding the info (which will annoy me, but fine), on the other I can’t help but remember the line of dialogue they wrote for Lyanna Mormont where she says “if you say so” in response to Sansa saying “I will always be a Stark.”
I am very interested in seeing her story in episode 10 and what they setup for her season 7 arc.
If you read what different reviewers have to say about Jon, it’s that he is unfit to command or lead anything or anybody. And yeah, that he is just dumb. Unfortunately, this seems to be the opinion of a lot of people who watched the episode, at least the ones who come online. Lol, I can just imagine what these people will say if he becomes King. If that is what does happen, it would seem like a weird choice by the writers to set him up for defeat one episode before he gets crowned.
RG,
I still stand by my point.
The Mance decision was correct and quite smart. Was a bit of depression after Ygrittes dead influenced his decision and made him to accept more easy the idea of a sacrifice? Yes.
Still good decision.
But I fully agree with you on everything!
Maggie,
How were they dead men walking, if in the show they lived 2 YEARS after the red wedding without being in the castle?
Both show and books had the fathers/brothers of the people in the Red Wedding being alive after that. So they didn’t get into the castle to save their lives.
In the books, RR is held by Tully’s until after the siege. They never lose it to the Freys and then take it back (like the show). They have it the whole time.
ghost of winterfell,
I completely disagree and read numerous reviews who said the very opposite.
But, I disagreed with you about Jon since the beginning of the season, so no suprise here… 🙂
Tycho Nestoris,
That’s the books, Not the show.
So I don’t see your point.
Mihnea,
Maggie mentioned not going into the castle to save their lives (in the books).
“Both show and books had the fathers/brothers of the people in the Red Wedding being alive after that. So they didn’t get into the castle to save their lives.”
RG,
I know I’m replying to my own post but what instantly came to mind was “Rhaegar fought honorably, Rhaegar fought nobly and Rhaegar died” which-you know-is what happened to Jon. Luckily it didn’t stick.
Apple doesn’t fall that far from the tree. 🙂
Ginevra,
Yes he would be consort-but we know how tricksy he is. 🙂
I know, that’s why i said in the show.
In the books almost all Riverlands lords have turned and are now under Lannisters.
It’s a tricky situation, but Jaime is right. This war has ended. Blackfish wants to hold the castle. He is cool and badass and everything…. but he doesn’t care for the smallfolk.
A smart man has to know which war to fight….
Blackfish should have choosed better.
Tycho Nestoris,
Ohh, didn’t see her mention the books as well. Didn’t read very careful as I’m at work!
Sorry.
Oh God Mihnea, don’t encourage them…..lmao!!
aabe,
How wise of Dany to listen to Tyrion and not destroy an entire city, innocent civilians and all. I imagine if Jon had dragons he could have saved Rickon and burned all of the Bolton forces with minimal casualties on his side. But he doesn’t have the cheat codes to level up to invincible mode.
ghost of winterfell,
That’s a solid theory that would hopefully put her in cahoots with my favorite chunky lord! It’s not really marking off three names, though, if the names weren’t there beforehand. That’s like sending hubby to the store and him saying, “I only got the things on the list” when there was in fact never a list.
Elizabeth,
Good lord, anything is better then Sansa!
Mihnea,
I just read a few which said this, one by Forbes and one by Variety , another review by Atlantic, I think, and the other day I linked a terrible one from Vox! But yeah, I don’t doubt there will be some reviewers out there who see the other side. I remember I really liked the sullied review by Washington Post. She really got what the episode was about. But I have read too many people saying he is dumb/ knows nothing etc 🙁 .
ash,
Ah okay, thanks for correcting.
Ginevra,
It works well as a trick answer 🙂 .
ghost of winterfell,
Have no fear, he isn’t. He never was, He never will be.
And no one in-universe will think that.
I don’t read book-readers Reviews, so I may be a bit biased, but the overwhelming majority didn’t say Jon was ”Dumb”. Did they agree he let emotions get him, with Rickon? Most did. Almost none said he was ”dumb” though.
Dee Stark,
Ugh I had as much problems with what Sansa did as anyone but even I’m tired of talking about it GIVE ME LYANNA MORMONT AND LYANNA STARK HYPE!!!!
I would like their conversation to put this shit to rest. I would very much like that line “it’s all that I can think about – what was taken from me” to be to Jon, perhaps as a small way of explaining why she might not have told him. But even if it’s to LF, I think we’ll see she’s still not going to trust him.
But either way, Sophie said that for Sansa, the fact that Jon iust looked at her and gave her the moment to deal with Ramsay, that she didn’t even have to ask he just walked away, that was a big deal for Sansa. I think Jon will worry about how she is after doing something so brutal, but he’ll also forgive her.
Just please stay together you two!!!!
Nadia,
This is why I admire you.
I disagree deeply with you but I greatly appreciate that you don’t want to go over board with this.
Maggie,
I’ll defer to you on the small folk. I don’t have a strong opinion.
I disagree in opinions of Walder Frey and Jaime though. BF (in both show and book) has no reason to trust either. He doesn’t have much reason to trust Edmure either.
He has every reason to think they are lying, plotting snakes. So if the “right” choice was to surrender and put your castle, men and self in Frey’s judgement and punishment, then I think BF was wise not to trust their words and promises.
Jared,
I love it! That scenario would help move me significantly toward forgiving Sansa.
BranTheBlessed,
I actually thought it was a smart risk to take to try to end the war. So no, I did not think it was dumb.
ghost of winterfell,
He made a rash choice, but he was not dumb. In front of all the people that were following him, he inspired courage and heroism, when he offered to DIE to save the lives of his army through a one on one combat, knowing that their army was small and were probably going to lose.
THEN he inspired loyalty, again courage and heroism, when he attempted to save his brother knowing that he was riding to death as Ramsay could shot a thousand arrows at him
I’m sorry, but I ABSOLUTELY disagree that Jon was dumb and stupid during this battle, and that if he becomes king it wouldn’t make sense.
Bran shows up and convinces him otherwise.
Danny,
It’s also the honorable thing to do. Jon wasn’t going to give up on his brother. It’s a Stark thing. And how brave did he look running alone against the Bolton army and he stood alone against the cavalry. He definitely deserves a song now. He is going to become a legend, a hero in everyone’s eyes.
The Vale saved the day but Jon is the hero in the battle. Ramsay, Sansa and Littlefinger were only watching. Jon was in the middle of it. His people won’t doubt to follow him. Unfortunately, it seems there won’t be many survivors, but the ones that survive will tell the story.
BranTheBlessed,
What Ned Stark did in season 1, was honorable but DUMB.
orange,
I used to think that, but even in the books it does seem to be gearing up for a march North. I don’t know how this show could put her through so much to reclaim Winterfell and just leave.
What I will say is that I hope they show some pain for her, in retaking her home but at so much cost it doesn’t even feel the same anymore.
ghost of winterfell,
You’re forgetting that the real war is the war between the dead and the living and I have ZERO doubt that the finale will remind us of that – and imply R+L. I don’t think even casual viewers would have a problem if Jon is the one people follow.
Ravyn,
SO GOOD!
Bran is the lord of Winterfell. Sansa is the Lady of the dreadfort. I think Bran grants Jon Winterfell . Btw, remeber there is a scene where Sansa was looking scared or something……..we havent seen that yet. It would ve quite anti climatic if LF is killed by Jon just for forcing himself on Sansa. Also it will be interesting if Sandor reaches Winterfell…..why? Sandor knows LF betrayed Ned. It will also be interesting to see the Manderlys.
This show is full of smug bastards but none I loathe more than Jaime Lannister.
That said, damn if he doesn’t look good channeling Tywin. Meow.
there’s a weirwood near the wall, he’s probably at that one
Mihnea,
I agree with you too 🙂 Because I think he is smarter than people give him credit for-but they keep arguing about his decisions I guess because he isn’t LF sly or Tywin clever. He’s also never had their resources.
Jon has continuously had to make miracles out of shit situations, and not only is he still around (thank LoL or whoever did that) but for his mercy on Mance, his attempted rescue and bravery at Hardhome and his gift of the Gift, he has the unwavering loyalty of the wildlings. For his actions since he took his vows and his defense of his brothers, he has the devotion of the remaining NW.
And after that battle, he’s going to have the support of a lot of the North as well.
That’s not all luck-that’s based on his decisions over the series.
That’s one of Wimsey’s guns, though. Why bother mentioning that the Targaryens are the only family in Westeros with a history of polygamy if it wasn’t relevant to the story?
Also I’m just going to remind everyone again that for all the show has shown us, Sansa KNOWS and believes that Jon is resurrected and that the White Walkers are real.
There’s no evidence that the North will NOT believe him. It’s not come up, but it might.
1) I think that makes it clear why they’d declare him KITN. He’s he only one who has shown he can fight and lead them against what’s coming
2) they basically seized Winterfell and the North from the crown (Tommen’s not dead YET). So normal succession rules don’t really apply, even if Sansa’s claim is better, she still was Lady Bolton. I’m not sure how that would fly. I’m sure everyone’s over it, but if they’re basically declaring their own kingdom in the wars to come, I think they turn to Jon.
3) the fact that Jon’s focus has always seemed to be on the real threat may be just why Sansa can support him. She’s not actually been shown to want power for power’s sake – she’s very clear she wants to take Winterfell back, but she mentioned all of them, Bran, Rickon, Arya, and she wanted revenge. She got that. But if she believes what the wars to come will be, I don’t think she wants some war with Jon.
I also think last episode gave her what she needed, and the fact that Jon basically walked away and gave her Ramsay earned her trust back I think.
Mihnea,
I think once everyone sees the WWs we’ll all forget this conversation happened 😉
Dee Stark,
Agree with all of this 🙂
RG,
I agree.
Ugh sometimes I feel like people are trying to create issues with the writing or the character or something.
I guess we see things differently.
Nadia,
Can’t happen soon enough…. LOL.
Mihnea
How can a plan be considered sound if there’s a 99% chance it’ll fail? The cynic in you may even look at Jon’s plan as a moment of weakness. Having seen Ygritte die, going with a plan where there’s certainty that he’ll also die.
The Heroism which is in full flow in that scene is obviously admirable but GRRM’s original take on it is more realistic. Or atleast, that’s the way I felt.
Humph. Doesn’t really look like a meat pie, does it?
I’ve long thought that R+L actually doesn’t do anything, not really. Rhaegar believed in the prophecy of ice and fire to fight when the Long Night comes. But I also think prophecies in this show are sometimes self-fulfilling.
Jon might have been destined to fight the WWs, but it won’t really matter because he’s already CHOSEN to do so.
Maybe some people will find out about it. I think most likely, people won’t know or believe.
If there’s an Iron Throne even left to sit on, who the hell is even going to care if that person has Targ blood or is the legitimized son of a prince?
I think it’s all turning those fantasy tropes on his head. Jon might be AA reborn because he chose to be, long ago, long before he ever finds out who he is.
What about the interview with Sophie and Maisie, where both told two truths and one lie facts from this season:
Sophie:
2. Lady Stoneheart returns.
3. Arya checks three people off her list.
Maisie:
2. Arya is in the trailer more times than people have realized, because they don’t realize it’s her.
3. Arya doesn’t cross any more names off her list.
Now, by logic we can tell that the show it’s going two ways. The first statement of Sophie has already happen so one of the others has to be true.
The other way it can go is that Lady Stoneheart does not comeback meaning Arya checks three names of her list, denying the third statement of Maisie, for this to happen Arya has to comeback to Westeros, because all the people in her list right now is on Westeros. Confirming the first statement. And that leave us with Aray being in the trailer more times than people realized, so we can say that Arya is face swapping for I dont know maybe a Frey face. And what better place to check names of her list than in The Twins.
Mihnea,
Dee Stark,
I agree he is not dumb, at all !I was speaking of the opinions I have read.
Nadia,
Reminding this would be a good way of showing why Jon needs to have power, yeah.
BranTheBlessed,
Because you see it as 99% not I. And even if I believed so, it would only make the moment greater for me.
I don’t see those as a moment of weakness, on the contrary I see them as moments of great thinking and courage.
Let us stop. I know why this bothers you. We disagree. We will continue to disagree and probbaly the characters themselves will disagree with you.
Let’s just stop it. It is pointless.
In the end it will come around to what it always does, ”it is different in the books” and I will NOT discuss this. I refuse. It will harm the site and community I love.
As a final note, to show just how deeply we disagree, I thought Martins take hurt Jon’s character greatly and I was very happy how the show did it.
I will not continue this ”debate”.
ghost of winterfell,
okay 🙂
we usually have similar opinions 🙂
I need Jon to give a “Live Together, Die Alone” speech!
This is what he needs to say to the northern houses: all the northern houses.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Dany is not a wise ruler, but I’m kinda irritated by people calling her achievements as cheat codes, tbh. She had her own journey to become who she is now, including getting dragons – she did not get them as gift from Illyrio, she paid with life to hatch dragons. Other characters have suffered more than her, but that does not cancel Dany’s trials. It is not as simple as ‘jumping into fire and emerging victorious’ every time, even if the show has depicted it that way. After reading through her Meereen chapters of ADWD, I wouldn’t say Dany has cheatcodes for anything at all. She is as human as any other character. She have had triumphs as well as failures. Sometimes unfair triumphs, yes. But others – Jon and Tyrion especially – also have had deus-ex-machina saving their lives more than once. Because of dragons, (and perhaps the background music,) her victories do stand out more than others’ visually, perhaps.
Ron,
Its Sansa’s. She’s lady Bolton in fact.
It’d be pretty funny if Sansa’s “reward” for Littlefinger was the Dreadfort.
Dee Stark,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsgQha-AZKA
“With an armor of ice
and a fire in his soul” *-*
Where are Margaery and Mace during Loras’s trial ? Sorry if it’s been asked.
GGaunt,
I really like how they played that. Even if we know the truths, we still have more to speculate on.
Rhaenys Stark,
Oh cute!!!
Mihnea,
Tommen the Toasted Marshmallow. 😉
Ramsay did say that in a letter, though. He said exactly that. Yes, the voice part was recorded just for the teaser, but the teaser reflected what Ramsay truly said. It’s possible we won’t get these missing lines from the teasers (Bran’s and especially Brynden’s), but I think we probably will get at least Bran’s.
This is all I want for Sunday
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28200000/Hagrid-s-Huts-ON-FIRE-bellatrix-lestrange-28283522-500-210.gif
Isn’t that pic of Bran from pre season?
Also, why does Tyrion look so worried?
Sansa smirking when she has garnered revenge on her rapist and abuser in the same fashion he liked to torture others makes complete sense to me. How this is even a matter of debate is beyond me.
Now that the Dreadfort is hers, I’m curious to see how Northern politics will shape up.
Tommen the Soft.
aabe,
I’m not saying Dany didn’t earn the dragons in season 1. I’m saying having dragons and being able to control them makes things a million times easier for her, at least as presented on the show. To me, she doesn’t feel human right now. She and her three dragons just defeated an entire army by themselves and she didn’t get so much as a scratch. I don’t think comparing Jon’s situation to Dany’s last episode was fair. That is all I’m saying.
Tommen the Wimp.
Maggie,
I really don’t think we can consider Robb, Catelyn, Sansa and the Blackfish to be completely inconsiderate about the lives of the smallfolk and their soldiers.
Robb was willing to behead a noble for killing two kids. If he knew about those three Northmen that raped and murdered those tavern keepers, I’m certain he would punish them. He also spared Osha, something very few lords would ever do. He is also haunted by the fact that he lost several men at the battle of the Green Fork. Lastly, we see him talking to several of his men, even patting a few on the back. I’d say this is enough evidence to show that he does indeed care about the commoners.
Catelyn I’m not entirely sure about. We haven’t seen any interactions between her and any lowborn people, outside of those guys who helped her arrest Tyrion (Might be forgetting some other situation). She was a compassionate woman however, and I don’t see her going out of her way to inflict harm on the smallfolk.
I think we also have a similar situation with Sansa. When she was younger, she didn’t really care about the death of Mycah and was more focused on pleasing Joffrey. I remember her having some regrets about him in the books though, but don’t quote me on it. She’s changed a lot since season 1 obviously. She’s no psycho, I’m sure she does feel something for all those soldiers who died because she didn’t tell Jon about LF. She just didn’t care enough however, so I’m going to go ahead and agree with you.
We have no idea what the Blackfish and his men were doing after the Red Wedding. Judging by what happened to all of the soldiers at the RW however, I highly doubt they were allowed to just comfortably settle down. My bet would be that they were constantly moving around and finding shelter with Tully sympathizers. So I agree with what Tycho is saying, they didn’t have anywhere to go unless if they wanted to go back into hiding. The Blackfish has no reason to believe that the Freys or Lannisters would honor their commitment and allow his men to leave.
Really, my entire point is that none of these characters are complete assholes. Joffrey did not care about the smallfolk, nor did Tywin or Gregor or Ramsay. “Not caring” Is a strong way to put it and paints the character a pretty dark shade of grey, at least how I see it.
There is what looks to be a genuine episode description over on Reddit.
https://i.reddituploads.com/f22ea78773e347a3b9056e211f6867d1?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=76c7517263c6cb603a2ded6fbc5b8744
Maggie,
Nothing to ponder there as an alternative…
Nailed it!
Halfman,
I am Indy and that link is the Cup of Christ.
Tycho Nestoris,
Eh??
Tommen the Uninspiring
Seriously, bring back Joffrey.
Halfman,
Is it a spoiler? Like a full description or just the 3 vague sentences? I don’t wanna look but I do.
EDIT: Okay. That’s not what I thought. I thought it was like a full description not just the regular “Arya faces a test” stuff. Joke bombed.
Tycho Nestoris,
Oh I see. No it’s not a spoiler or I would have tagged it. It tells us nothing we don’t already know.
Jack Bauer 24,
You always call him a wimp and a coward. Its ridiculous.
He’s a child
Did you also notice how Tyrion called Dany’s plan out for being amazingly like the Mad King’s maddest plan ever? The very justified reason that his own kingsguard slaughtered him? Even Dany’s beloved adviser is warning Dany how close she dances to madness, teetering on tyranny.
I bolded the Baelor for other, hopefully obvious, reasons.
orange,
The thing is that Lyanna Mormont has no authority to legitimize Jon. When she wrote that letter to Stannis, she was declaring her loyalty to House Stark, not to any particular Stark.
Regarding what she said to Sansa, Lyanna was treating her as a turncloack (after marrying first a Lannister and then a Bolton, two known rival families of the Starks). I think there is no further reading into that.
I’m really interested if we start seeing some changes in Jaime in this episode.
First, he’s meeting with Walder Frey. It’s pretty obvious he’s not very comfortable about it. He probably figures out that Frey is a complete dick, likely gloating over killing Robb and Catelyn with glee.
Assuming that makes Jaime uneasy, and already knowing Brienne is on the other side of the confrontation, the rumored developments in King’s Landing
leads me to wonder if he’ll begin to question his place in the current hierarchy and maybe swap sides going into next year. Something to consider anyway.
(I’m holding out hope that Jaime makes the full change from villain to hero by the end of the show, but I want Jaime and Brienne to end up together.) 🙂
In defense of those reviewers, even though I strongly disagree that that’s where the story is going, D&D made Jon look like a huge dumbass last episode. Yes, he should have gone for Rickon, but he should have turned around the very second all hope was lost and high-tailed it back. Literally. Especially after Sansa told him it was a trap. Davos was even whispering “don’t” under his breath. Everyone knew Jon was being suckered.
Tommen the Beguiled. First by Margery. And now the HS.
Hmm…
What Jon did violated the carefully laid plans he and Davos made in the pre-battle preparations scene; he let Ramsey lure him to the middle of the field and forced his army to come out too early, thus allowing Ramsey to surround them. He fell in Ramsey’s trap just as Sansa had predicted. If the Vale Army hadn’t arrived in the nick of time to break the Bolton Army’s line, Ramsey would have slaughtered Jon and everybody inside the circle. So, nope, it wasn’t exactly the smartest decision Jon has ever made.
George,
Okay so he should have just watched Rickon die without attempting to save him? How would his soldiers have felt? How would you have felt about that?
That should instil confidence in your soldiers!
Hello – Stannis/Shireen = low morale.
Bronn is saying “You promised me a Castle, remember? Why don’t you kill all these Frey idiots and give this Castle to me? You know perfectly well Lord Walder is a backstabbing tool!”
LOL
Nadia,
Well, it could do something really cool that we don’t even know about [yet], to paraphrase Old School.
The ancient history of the Stark line combined with the ancient history of the Targaryen line could mean something special. We already know that Jon burns, so he doesn’t have the dragon in him, or at least not the fire dragon. Maybe he has some other special ability that will be revealed.
After The Door, D&D did an interview and said that when they met with GRRM to go over the story to its end, GRRM told them 3 things/twists that blew their minds. #1 was Hodor/Hold The Door. There are still 2 more out there. Hmmm.
Dee Stark,
Well, that’s a good point. Conversely, how does Little Jon Umber march hit guys into battle after Ramsay has been showering arrows on his own men from the first wave of attack (when Davos told his archers to stand down). Ramsay clearly showed no concern for killing his own men, and Umber seemed to be A-OK with that – even when he was going out on the battlefield himself.
viki,
Re: the impact of Jon being R+L:
Ever since I’ve read the first book and saw the first season – five years ago – (and worked out R+L) I felt that the only reason for R+L plotwise (apart form the fact that it will make him come from the right bloodline to become the PTWP) is to make an Arya/Jon love relationship (heavily foreshadowed in the first book) legal and possible.
Dee Stark,
After Rickon was dead, be should have gone back to his line with Davos and Tormund and wait for Ramsey to attack first (the original plan)
Instead he charged an Army of 6,000 with a single horse, alone. How is that supposed to be a winning strategy?
George,
I think the only place he could go without getting showered by arrows was forward. If he stayed where he was or went back, he would have been skewered.
By the time Umber went into the field, Ramsey had stopped the archery volleys and was into the “surround them with shields and spears” strategy…
George,
Understood, but I don’t know how comfortable I would feel going out there after the guy probably killed hundreds of his own men.
It might not have been the smartest decision – but it was practically the only in-character decision for him.
and for the record, he knew he will die and he didn’t really care (not until he realised he wants to live during the “rebirth” scene later). The battle could have still gone as planned if Davos doesn’t order them to follow Jon, but decides to follow the plan.
Jon cared enough about Rickon to sacrifice himself. Jon’s men cared enough about Jon the go to that battle against all odds. Jon didn’t order them to join the battle at that point.
George,
he only did that after being attacked with thousands of arrows. if I remember correctly. no??
George,
+1
Boston Snow,
Yes, and it was awesome. Plus, imagine the critics/fans reactions if Jon rode back? That argument would never end.
Sou,
Not necessarily, depends on where the lesion was located.
Boston Snow,
#1 was the death of Shireen by fire. #2 was hold the door. Apparently #3 is something that happens “near the end”. We can only assume they meant near the end of the story, which will either be next year or Season 8.
Dee Stark,
Dee Stark,
If only professional reviewers, who are paid to notice the things you just said, could realize this.
If Rickon had been replaced by one of his siblings (say, Arya or Sansa), everyone would be screaming for Jon to ride and rescue them. In the eyes of the North, Jon not only tried to rescue his brother, but also the rightful lord/heir to Winterfell and Ned Stark’s last surviving son.
OMG the season 6 soundtrack is out…
“Hear Me Roar” is definitely Cersei’s revenge… And the last music “The winds of Winter” has Dany’s epic theme mixed with Greyjoy theme! They are sailing home!
Episode 10 is going to be epic!
Moqorro,
Hilarious. Strong leak, HBO should be worried
As I think about it. Didn’t Sophie said that a lot of people will kneel before after Brienne did that and kneel befoe her? Maybe she will be Queen in the North.
Joe,
Are you sure about that? I thought what I saw/read around The Door, they said Hodor was the first and the other two were yet to come. I could be wrong. Shireen wasn’t really a No-F’ing-Way reveal, IMHO. It was terrible, it was foreshadowed a ton, and we all knew it was coming.
He he.
The flagbearer right behind Bronn has a face full of Lannister banner.
http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery10/hires/12.jpg
Boston Snow,
I’m pretty sure, although I’ll see if I can find the story for you to confirm. And I agree, the Shireen thing wasn’t shocking reveal, but I do think it was a WTF moment in that I couldn’t believe it actually happened (although I know many fans were speculating it would happen early in the season). The 3rd reveal will have to be pretty huge to top Hold the door though….
Mihnea,
Seriously, my issue with the Sansa thing is that it was a plot decision (like they needed the Vale to ride in and Sansa to be a badass at the end because they needed payoff for her suffering) but the rationale they’re giving for it just makes no sense.
But also, it’s weird as heck that people are portraying her to be this power hungry witch. They’ve never shown her to want power for power’s sake. She wanted revenge and she wanted her home back, for her, Jon, Bran, Rickon, and Arya. She said that. So I don’t think she’s going to turn on him and be Lady of Winterfell and screw Jon.
I think she understands White Walkers are the throat but also that’s Jon’s concern, he’s not power hungry either.
And I really don’t think she’s going to let LF screw Jon. I think if she realizes LF wants to marry her and wants Winterfell, she’s NEVER going to let that happen. I think she’s rather not have WF than let LF have it.
It’s on YouTube, but not yet out on iTunes. I pre-ordered it today. The soundtrack for GoT is one of my all time favorites. I’ve got all of them so far and listen to them a lot. I’m ready to see Cersei do stuff!
Joe,
So I just did a google search, and although its PerezHilton, its the first result I saw and clicked on….but I checked some other ones and they said the same…
http://perezhilton.com/2016-05-24-game-of-thrones-showrunners-holy-shit-moments-george-rr-martin#.V2xBh7QrLIU
Nadia,
Eh, I had no problem with it.
Agree with everything else.
Joe,
Argh. So that means there is only one left. I thought we still had two coming. This is not as good. : )
Kay,
To throw out a wild theory of my own, with all the speculation regarding LSH, is it possible Brienne assumes this role? She is captured by Walder Frey and killed, but brought back by the BwoB hellbent on killing everyone who betrayed Catelyn Stark?
Boston Snow,
There’s only one GRRM twist left (in the show). The show may be able to throw one or two of their own in there. Plus, that pow wow between Martin and D&D was in 2014 so maybe George came up with another twist between then and now??? Right, George? George? Please?
Ginevra,
If we are talking book “guns,” then there are so many of them hung that they may exceed the number of actual guns in the US. 🙂
I don’t know the answer to whether Rhaegar also married Lyanna and whether that marriage was somehow recognized. I wouldn’t think by the Faith of the Seven, they tolerated the incest but did not approve. it. Rhaegar didn’t worship the Old Gods and I’m not sure whether pologamy has been practiced by those worshippers. Perhaps Craster’s older gods.
Anyway, at this point, I’m not sure his claim to the throne would be recognized. Who would know they were married? Even if Howland Reed knows of the birth and people believe him (or believe Bran’s visions) who would have proof of the marriage?
I’d prefer to accept Dany as the true claimant to the IT, and TPTWP and Azor Ahai.
I think Dany’s conflict/choice will involve her children and that it will relate to the prophesies.
A dornish Tyrell,
Now that things are settled a bit Sansa should sit down with young Lyanna Mormont and explain to her how girls/women are treated in this world. A woman to woman talk if you like, to disabuse her a bit of her illusions (if she has any), prepare her for the future and shed some light on the circumstances of her marriages.
Tycho Nestoris,
Those aren’t the only twists Martin told them.
They are just the biggest ones.
Mihnea,
Right, I didn’t mean to imply that. I was just using “twist” as a replacement for the 3 “wtf moments” discussed here…
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/24/george-rr-martin-3-twists-game-thrones
Tycho Nestoris,
That’s a good point. I read something that GRRM came up with a new twist a few months ago… he went back and forth on whether to include it or not, and finally he decided yes. Who knows if that will make the TV show though.
Boston Snow,
Unfortunately, that specific twist won’t be in the show because
.
Here’s the article: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/25/george-rr-martin-game-of-thrones-twist-will-appear-in-books-not-tv-show
Mrs. Podrick Payne,
That would be very nice indeed!! And I suspect that young Lyanna, after that talk, would have much more sympathy for Lady Sansa Stark.
Sorry. I refuse to set foot on the LSH hype train in any form (btw, I am not even a book reader. 😉 ) I started to think, in Season 6, that the show was hanging all the Valyrian steel swords on the wall, drawing attention to them. Sam’s sword (no longer evil daddy’s) and Brienne’s. Brienne can’t spend her life honoring her oaths to dead people. She is a good, honorable person, she needs to be in the end-game and fight the WWs. Also show BwB people are all about the LoL and the war against the WWs, not at all about Catelyn Stark.
A lot of pics of the Twins. They are really promoting it. Somethings going down there in the finale…
Tyrion looks super worried…
Love it. That’s what I shall call him from now on 😀
schase,
I hear you but he needs to suffer first please, to lose everything and know he has, like Ramsay 😀
In this two pictures, Jaime sit at the same place, but guess who’s not on his chair anymore on the second :
http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery10/hires/7.jpg
http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/got/gallery6/gallery10/hires/6.jpg
Flayed Potatoes,
YES! Thank you!!
Going through the tracks now. Always fun trying to imagine how those the finale scenes will fit with some of those last ones. “Winter Has Come” and “Hear Me Roar” are ominous but at the same time a bit more upbeat than expected. “The Winds of Winter” is a good final scene & credits track. I’d be surprised if our imaginations don’t set the scene pretty well. 🙂
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBq8E6dv7-4
This video of the visual effects team is great …
I’m expecting Dany leaving for Westeros to be a huge spectacle. Three dragons (and she should be riding Drogon), all those ships, Unsullied, Second Sons, Dothraki, Greyjoys, etc. Should be crazy. I hope we get to see Theon and Yara react to seeing the dragons.
Florian,
Hmmm…The chair when Walder toasts (linked below) is different and he’s between Lothar and Rivers, in the middle of the table. When he speaks to Jaimes he’s at the end of the table in a different chair, right? Musical chairs significance?
http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_fill,h_337,w_600/t_mp_quality_gif/xo9cnokcha90er6xmvtq/will-arya-go-full-kill-bill-on-walder-frey-in-the-game-of-thrones-season-6-finale-1022375.jpg
Jack Bauer 24,
I expect a typical Danny scene with the dragons flying and screaming … but they have to make an effort with the fleet and include Targaryen flags. It should look cool.
BunBunStark,
Benjen wouldn’t be escorting Bran south, only to then tell him he can’t go south of the Wall. And besides, the mark on Bran’s arm has already SERVED its purpose. It’s not a tracking because a) the Night King is already aware of the cave’s (it’s the same location where he was made into a White Walker 8000 years ago), and b) he already demonstrated his own greensight powers when he intercepted Bran. Who needs a “tracking device when you’re practically omniscient?
Also, we already saw Jon Snow get attacked by a re-animated corpse of a Black Brother AFTER they dragged him into Castle Black (which is on the south side of the Wall).
Also, the reason the White Walkers didn’t march on the Wall immediately after the massacre of the Free Folk at Hardhome was because of Bran and the Three-eyed Raven. The Wall itself is just an obstacle they’ll have to get through, and they’re in no hurry. Greenseers like Bran and the Three-eyed Raven are the only beings to pose any threat to the Night King’s plans. You see, this is the reason why there were wights lying in wait outside the Cave of the Children of the Forest. Not only does the Night King remember this being the Children’s stronghold, but as someone possessing greensight, he more than likely predicted that Bran was coming to that cave. Those wights must have laid buried in the snow for years, before they issued forth at the moment Bran’s party arrived.
There’s only one place Bran needs to be: Winterfell!
ash,
I predict we see this scene on the “previously on Game of Thrones” review before the episode. Then Sansa either blackmails LF into leaving them be, or tells Jon and they move on LF to take him out of the picture since he basically got their parents killed.
Yeah, and with the preview soundbytes I’ve been hoping something bad doesn’t happen before they make an expected departure. They just had a this major positive swing for Daenerys and her story so I’d be super upset if they kick us in the gut with something in the finale.
I’m hoping the Meereen scenes are nothing more than Daenerys making the huge decision to finally make her move on Westeros and needing to leaving some behind to oversee things in Slaver’s Bay. She’s seemingly gotten to the point in Meereen where it should be relatively safe and she could rule comfortably, but her heart pushes her to start towards her ultimate goal and it’s very scary. Maybe Daario tries to get her to stay and Tyrion reminds her that the ‘great game’ is not an easy one to play. To be honest, hanging out on top of a pyramid in Meereen seems like a more attractive situation.
George,
1. Jon violated the plans..newSansa those plans were doomed, especially after the talk with Sansa.
2. He should have returned after Ramsay shot Rickon… Jon would have got an arrow into his back. Going forwards was a right decision, as he still could reach Ramsay.
3. Jon would have broken the phalanx even without the help of the Vale. Smalljon Umber was dieing and his men were decimated. If the Vale did not come, would have climbed the pile with a bunch of wildlings and wildlingstacked from the rear.
In general, sometimes the only way to deal with a trap is to fall into it and then break out. And this conclusion is not based on literature: it’s based on real life and real war experiences.
Agree with that.
dragonbringer,
This season has been very much about bringing characters together. I’m betting Varys finds Arya inadvertently. That would end the season with Arya and Theon meeting up again.
The problem is that she is not gray. Depending on what she knew and intended, she is either ditzy white or Machiavellian black. There isn’t an in-between: either she intentionally threw Jon et al into the grinder as bait, or she did not.
Amazing piece. Tower of Joy…
Late season 7 – Bran has a vision of Littlefinger with the dagger to Ned’s throat.
Season 7 finale – Bran confronts Littlefinger. Littlefinger threatens Bran which Sansa overhears, Sansa puts a knife in his back.
If it were dialog on the show it would be
Cameryn,
Jaime has the Lannister army. He could get rid of Walder Frey, and seek to make peace with Winterfell, and hold on to an alliance with the Vale. He could then march back to King’s Landing and rule. He is in the line of succession. He could also make peace with Olenna. Or try. Now. There is a very slim chance that Jaime found out from Brienne that Sansa had nothing to do with Joffrey’s death, that Littlefinger & Olenna planned & executed the entire plot. This might change Jaime’s attitude towards The Vale. But the whole point I’m making is that he has his army with him, so he has a choice of what he wants to do.
1. If Jon knew that the plan was “doomed” that was obviously very surprising news to both Davos and Tormund (Tormund says “don’t” before Jon foolishly advances)
2. How exactly was he going to reach Ramsey? He obviously couldn’t avoid all those horses and archers in between. Again, he was advancing alone against 6,000 men.
3. LOL, how many men do you think Jon had left at the end of the battle? The show made it more than obvious that Jon’s troops were pretty much doomed before the arrival of the Vale Knights. The overhead shot shows that the line of shields surrounding them was completely unbroken before the Vale smashed it.
4. What “real War experiences” are those? Find me a single example in history ever where a commander broke in a single run alone against a superior force and won the battle…
Can’t believe this is the last of these posts for the year. I think I’ll miss the WotW ritual almost as much as the show.
OT, but this might make up for the lack of Jon photos–some behind the scenes pics of Kit prepping for “Call of Duty.”
http://www.ew.com/gallery/kit-harington-call-of-duty-infinite-warfare
Absolutely beautiful. Love that it’s a version of the Stark theme. I don’t think we’ll get through this with dry eyes, do you?
Thank you for posting this!
We often don’t know how much time elapses between episodes. It seems like sometimes a story can pick up right where it left off the week before, and sometimes several weeks can elapse. That’s really how it needs to be; otherwise, travel time would wreak havoc on many of the stories.
Isabelle,
I’m already crying so… Ramin deserves big recognition for this spectacular soundtrack.
Florian,
Perhaps Walder Frey will reveal during the celebration that they have captured Brienne and he plans to wed her to Black Walder, forcing Jaime to decide if his feelings for her are more than just friendship. But Walder Frey will die when Arya, disquised as a kitchen wench poisons his food. Jaime def has something on his mind in those pics you linked to.
George,
So what exactly is the point of this debate? Most everyone agrees that Jon made a mistake and fell in the trap Sansa warned him about but most also believe that his mistake was completely understandable. He is not the first nor the only commander to make mistakes. May I remind people that both Tywin and Jamie fell into the trap that Robb had set and that is how Jamie was captured? Jamie the famed Kingsguard. Tywin was three times older than Jon and Jamie twice his age. Oh and if you read through the thread you can find out how many men survived on Jon’s side, over 1,500 I think. Someone actually took the time to count them. Apparently most bodies belonged to the Boltons.
I’m just starting reading,so someone may answer this for you already; but as far as Clapton my son sent me a link to the Getty Foundation were they do the history of fashion to GOT and Ms Clapton said she was asked to return for season 7.
Bran cut part of his arm off that night King touched. Kinda looks like it in one of those photos lol
Jon’s true mistake wasn’t in going for Rickon, which wasn’t a mistake at all. His real mistake was in not turning around at this instance, when all hope was lost, when Rickon was dead, when even Tormund knew it was a trap as he says “Don’t!” just before Jon gallops at full speed toward stupidity. If only Tormund had texted.
Darkrobin,
If you’re secretly marrying the crowned prince and giving birth to his son, I’m thinking there would have been measures taken to establish legitimacy: signed and sealed documents from all parties present, including bride, groom, and kingsguard. Wimsey scoffs at the idea of marriage and birth certificates, and I’m sure it wasn’t that formal, but folks take signed and sealed letters all the time as proof in Westeros. It would make sense that they’d accept such proof in this instance.
And then my pet theory is that such proof was buried with Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell to keep it safe and hidden, with only Ned (and possibly Howland) knowing of its location until Bran envisions that, too.
Dany is the song of fire and the red herring. Jon is the song of ice and fire, the wolf and the dragon.
Flayed Potatoes,
Yes, Jon as a human being and brother should have done everything possible to save Rickon. Jon as a military commander should have been willing to let his brother die for the greater good, at least in my opinion. If you are going to send thousands of people into combat and totally tear up your plan for battle for one person, I would question his command decisions. The same if it were Arya. The only thing i’d say about Bran is that given his special abilities, he may be worth hundreds of wildlings.
Should the commander risk losing the battle, his life, his sister’s life, his friends’ lives, and truth be told the lives of many in the North? I mean would you really want Ramsay leading the fight against the WWs?
Jon did the heroic thing. I’m just not sure it was the militarily correct thing to do. I think Sansa had the better argument here. Jon did what Ramsay wanted him to. Sansa told him. He did not listen. She told him Rickon was dead. And he was. (Realistically, maybe Rickon could have escaped, I’ve read the posts on how hard it is to hit a moving target at that range.)
But the story required Rickon to die, and for Jon to try to save him, and for that to almost result in death and defeat and for Sansa and LF to save the day. And so it happened.
Jon trying to save his brother was exactly what you would expect him to do. If you expected otherwise you don’t know Jon Snow. The thing I think he did wrong was to continue to charge towards Ramsey after Rickon was gone. But n a way I helped him avoid the arrows that they shot towards Rickons body to try and kill Jon figuring he would be by Rickon.
Nadia,
In 6.06, LF convinced Cersei to appoint him Warden of the North…
“He goes to meet Cersei and he informs her of the Boltons’ plans to marry Sansa to Ramsay. Angered at the Boltons’ betrayal, Cersei agrees with Baelish’s plans to lead an army of Vale knights to Winterfell to reclaim the North for the Lannisters, as the warriors from the Eyrie are trained to fight in winter (the weather is starting to turn at this point). In exchange, Baelish asks to be appointed as the new Warden of the North once Winterfell is taken and both the Boltons and Stannis are defeated. Cersei agrees and tells him to return that night to have the King sign a royal decree promoting him.”
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Petyr_Baelish
I’ve always had a theory that the prophecy about the sun rising in the west and setting in the east would be fulfilled by Dany riding Drogon eastward to get to Westeros and beating the sun. As she flies faster than the sun, the sun will eventually set behind her in the west and then rise to meet her in the east. I doubt this theory will play out in the show, but I would love it if it did.
LyannaBanna,
Sorry, don’t mean to be rude, but what is your point?
EXACTLY.
Jon/Sansa/the Starks have rebelled against the crown because they rebelled against the CROWN APPOINTED Warden of the North.
It doesn’t matter what the heck LF was promised, because it was promised by the crown and thus an appointment made by a crown that the North is rejecting.
Therefore, the North in theory can declare whoever the heck they want as King in the North. Again, the crown appoints the Warden. The North, by kind of seceding away, can declare anyone as King OR Queen of the North. So it doesn’t have to be a legitimate Stark or a male.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-BuTXwS_A
So I *love* these videos – so freaking insightful!!!!! I know this one is a bit old, but the reviews are so deep that they don’t come out until the day the next episode comes out. And I am only just now watching the “No One.”
I love all the parallels he’s drawing – crazy brilliant. And even though I don’t agree with everything, I find it perhaps the most stimulating commentary on the show that I’ve seen. I’m not very far in yet (6 minutes), but he’s just said (before the 6 minute mark) that he has a theory that all of the Starks are exactly like the names of their respective direwolves. He pointed to Arya being like Nymeria, our warrior but also possibly our Amerigo Vespucci, going west to find and settle a new land, speculating that could be Arya’s final destiny.
And I’m like, Sansa is the lady, of course. And Jon is a ghost!!! Rickon was definitely shaggy. Is Bran summer? Nan thought so: “sweet summer child.” How is Robb grey wind?
OMG, this is so beautiful. And it has the “Jon” theme in it. At the very least, it’s really hinting that Lyanna is Jon’s mom. Yeah? Thank you for posting.
Maggie,
It’s a story for Nobles.
Very true. I believe that some of the Lords have more concern than others about the peasantry. But at the end of the day it is generally only to the extent that it affects them that they do care. Happy peasents produce more food and require less oversight and produce goods for sales at markets on which the nobles collect fees and taxes.
I think that is the crux of the support for the sparrows. Do people really want a religious revival or do they want to feel safe and have food on the table and a roof above them? What have the Lannisters, Baratheons, Starks, etc. given them? War, famine, death.
Butwho wants to watch a show about the common people? Or as someone noted above a capable military commander executing a well through out battle plan?
Rhaenys Stark,
The soundtrack was perfection, I noticed that especially during BoB.
Tycho Nestoris,
In the books it was more understandable. No one really ruled the Riverlands. It was chaos. the BF never left RR and therefore the castle never fell. The Blackwoods and a few other families still held out. With all the unrest the Freys really could not project power throughout the Riverlands. That’s why Randall Tarley was in Maidenpool clearing out all the broken men and outlaws who were the remanents of Robb’s army and the Lannister and other armies as well and restoring peace and order.
Edmure entered the castle. It surrendered the next morning. The BF escaped during the night via the river. So no one died. For the show, they decided to end the BF and it was better visuals to have the big show down at the gate. So it went down differently.
I understand why the BF did what he did, but yes I’d liked for him to lay down arms and go to fight for Sansa but that wasn’t what the script required.
Dee Stark,
The commander being killed is probably one of the best ways for an army to lose. Especially in a setting where the Wildlings are following him almost like a god and where the commander is leaving his troops from the van..
Morale would be lower if Jon died than if he did nothing and Rickon died in my opinion. Of course, he wasn’t going to die. And Rickon was going to die. And he was going fall into Ramsay’s trap because that’s how it was written.
Nadia,
Thanks for explaining this!
Ginevra,
And you could well be right, perhaps moreso in the books where there are wills and letters (such as the one Robb may have written in regard to Jon). I would be pleased if he is legitimate.
Motherofmadness,
I’m not sure but I adore Clapton’s work. Daenerys and Cersei’s clothes this season have been disappointing. Cersei I can understand, kind of, but that dark grey bedspread they draped on Dany in her scene with the Greyjoys is atrocious. I think it’s the same dress in the picture above. Ew. Curiously, I think the men’s costumes have been outstanding this season. Really wonderful.
lyanna_targaryen,
OMG, that really is gorgeous. So sad, I will probably weep* like a baby when that scene airs.
Sam, where do you hear the “Jon theme”? What I hear at the end is Robb’s
Gods, can it be Sunday already please??
*not really
I think too many people overestimate how much affect Jon’s stunt had on the outcome of the pre-Vale battle, and how much it was an attempt to decapitate the Stark army. Thought about that way, and Ramsay’s impossible accuracy becomes largely moot. Even if he missed, he could have multiple volleys launched at the both of them, and thus likely kill them both, or charge and trample them. Jon’s survival of the first thirty or so seconds was TV miraculous and if Ramsay had missed, Rickon’s survivor would have been even less likely.
BunBunStark,
Oh my bad. That “theme” is a “Stark theme”, I think (at 2:11). It’s the same music that played during Jon and Sansa’s reunion. I mistook it because it sounded similar to the first part of “My Watch Has Ended”.
Tormund’s Teeth,
Why don’t YOU shut the fuck up about it ?
Just ignore me if you don’t like what I have to say, for the love of God. Why do you have to attack people ? If you don’t agree with me, FINE. I don’t give a shit. I’m glad you have your own opinion. I’m not going to harass you about it just because I disagree.
Move on with your life and stop bullying people.
I have a right to voice my opinion, and I’m sick and tired of people like you trying to force others to shut up.
You can be the one to shut the hell up for a change.
Darkrobin,
Rickon was the known as the rightful Lord of Winterfell and Ned Stark’s last surviving son. You can’t simply just let him die because it will reflect terribly on you. As Jon and Davos said: “the North is watching”. And the north just saw Jon try to rescue the heir to Winterfell, instead of letting him die. This type of honor and loyalty is appreciated in the North. Yes, falling into Ramsay’s trap is a mistake, but it’s an in-character mistake. If you think Jon isn’t going to try and save his siblings then you don’t know Jon.
He will have to learn how to keep his cool. This was his first real battle and he had no experienced commanders by his side like Robb did. It would have been unrealistic for him to turn into Superman and be the perfect general. He’s learning.
What’s the chances Loras has a shank up his sleeve…lol…most likely not but would be cool to see
It was actually Davos that caused the ease in which Ramsey’s forces encircled Jon’s army.
He was the one who took the archers into the battle, if they had stayed where they were, boltons army would not have been able to surround the forces as would have been picked of from behind by the archers.
So not all Jon’s fault as how the battle was about to end before LF’s intervention
Besides, Davos couldn’t let loose the archers without killing their own men. Sitting there wasn’t doing then any good so he decided to join in on the battle.
Sir Arthur Dayne,
Yes, it would be. I am afraid the faith militants broke his fighting spirit.
House Stackhouse,
That’s not entirely true. Inside of Winterfell, the Stark archers massacred Ramsay’s men by shooting low – not arcing up into the sky. They could have done something like this from behind. I agree that Davos thought he was doing the right thing, but ultimately he also fell into Ramsay’s trap. Hey, give it to the guy, Ramsay had a damn good plan.
House Stackhouse,
Sitting there was doing some good though. Ramsey could not instigate the second part of his plan (to encircle Jon’s forces) while the archers where behind the main battleground. As soon as they tried to circle the main force archers would have just picked of his men from behind them.
He was only able to congest and trap Jons forces because they all joined together
Inga,
I dont think. Sansa is seen near the godswood of winterfell which wasnt covered by as much as snow as the one which was near Bran. Its still a shock to me that winterfell isnt covered much by snow as the winter had finally come.
Flayed Potatoes,
I agree that this is what Jon would do. I don’t think this is what an experienced military commander would do.
But what part of the North was watching? Jon had what 300 Northerners the rest were Wildlings. The rest of the houses were not present. Otherwise you had the Boltons, Umbers and Karstarks. They did not seem too impressed with what Jon did. None of them appeared to switch sides due to Jon trying to rescue Rickon. None appeared to abandoned Ramsay when his archers shot his own men. They are now going to follow Jon and Sansa as they won and presumably they will install allies as leaders of those houses.
If Jon had died, trying to save Rickon the view of Northerners would not have mattered. Then Sansa would have honored his memory.
The North was going to win whether Jon died or not due to the surprise appearance of the Knights of the Vale. Of course Jon was never going to die. Rickon was always going to die. Sansa and LF were always going to show up. Ramsay was always going to die. It was pretty obvious that this was how it was to be scripted. Even if I had not seen the spoilers, I would not have thought Jon or Sansa would have died. As soon as LF said he was at Moat Cailin and Sansa wrote the note, it was clear LF would show up. And it wouldn’t be too late. Yes others might have died. Yes they may have had to lay siege to WF. But the result was foreordained
Boston Snow,
Ramsay did have a good plan. He was a better commander than Stannis, supposedly the greatest military commander in Westeros. He knew more about Jon than Jon knew about him. Sansa was correct, cold but correct.
It is interesting but the Starks love for family has been the instrument of their doom. Ned forsaking his honor for the love of Sansa and Arya. Catelyn freeing Jamie for love of Arya and Sansa. Robb in the books essentially approving of Cat’s actions to cover his marriage of Jen. Robb on the show in starting or agreeing to a war he could not win to save Ned. Love is the bane of honor and the death of duty. In today’s world, love conquers all. In medieval times duty and honor held more sway than it does today. We approve of their actions given the prism of our own lives.
Darkrobin,
I understand why the BF did what he did, but yes I’d liked for him to lay down arms and go to fight for Sansa but that wasn’t what the script required.
Thanks for the keen observations. For the above. Specifically, BF laying down arms and going north. Do you mean the opportunity to escape with Brienne? Or going the Edmure route and surrendering the castle?
For #2, I just can’t see BF trusting Jaime or Walder to allow him (or his troops for that matter) to go North and fight there. I would have liked for BF to go with Brienne. I can accept that he only knew RR in the show and felt obligated to stay (and die) there though.
I do have issues with the idea that BF used his RR soldiers to achieve a personal goal. We (collectively not just you and I) can argue the current housing market for the unarmed troops from RR indefinitely but I just don’t see how they co-exist in this Lannister/Frey controlled Riverlands.
Sir Arthur Dayne,
I’m just hoping Loras does something heroic on his way out … to sacrifice himself for Margarey perhaps … two days cannot wait!
Tycho Nestoris,
I agree with you. In that I do understand his actions. The Freys took over the Tully’s former domain. Who thinks that they would have tried their new serfs in the same manner as the Tully’s did. So yes, they probably knew their life under the Freys would be worse. Of course then you could argue that stopping the fighting was a step up.
I would have preferred his book path – escape during the night. Then Edmure takes care of his people and the BF lives to fight another day. But he had been on the run in the show for 2 years. He had had enough of it. So I do understand his actions.
I don’t take issue with him trying to defend his home. Castles would resist even when little hope of rescue was possible as they knew they would be slain upon the castle falling. Could Jamie have really stormed the castle? He would have put the Tully banner men forward first, the Freys and only then the Lannisters at least that was his book plan. Perhaps it would have fallen. But castles held out for long periods of time in the middle ages. It takes a lot to support an army of 8,000 plus the Freys. In the books, it was snowing. They could not live off the land. They did not have time for a siege.
they all get eaten by a giant mietzekatze
Of course, I think it’s important to remember he didn’t mean a word of this. Littlefinger is no friend to the crown or the Lannisters. In convincing the Royces to stand up the Vale army and back Lord Arryn, he explicitly asks them to go against the Lannisters. Even his alliance with the Tyrells is an alliance against the Lannisters. The Vale still thinks Cersei and Jamie killed Jon Arryn. The northerners, of course, are never going to get over the execution of Ned Stark. I’d be extremely surprised if they don’t reassert their independence and officially break free from the crown again. The only reason this didn’t work the first time is because they left the north. The Greyjoys are no longer a threat. Tywin is dead. Jaime isn’t going to do anything about it. The Lannisters might have the strongest army left, but he isn’t going to breech Moat Cailin with 8,000 men. The only reason Littlefinger was able to get through is almost certainly that Ramsay recalled all of the Bolton men to defend Winterfell, never expecting an attack from the south.
Boston Snow,
The first one was the sacrifice of Shireen, the second one the sacrifice of Hodor … so the third one might be another huge sacrifice of someone … maybe the Nissa Nissa prophecy. If Jon has a new love interest next season, we’ll know who is the sacrifice or maybe just one of his siblings.
It can be really cold without there being much snow…. I’m a Southerner, but I have spent more than a few days in very cold weather without snow on the ground, (and even below freezing – it can get cold in Orlando sometimes – we don’t get much snow, but I’ve lived in colder climes as well without it snowing).
It just depends on when the precipitation rolls in.
(Just my thoughts for what they’re worth.)
Frey will piss Jaime off and we might see the reckless Jaime of season 1, just honorable. Kill them for Catlyn Stark.
Only 7 comments to 1,000 …
Laura,
In this finale, I would love to see Arya reunite with either The Hound, The Freys, or Nymeria.
There’s been some chatter about Brexit being bad for Game of Thrones, but this statement from HBO today: http://www.ew.com/article/2016/06/24/brexit-game-thrones
That will be on HBO 2. Just the hound earing chicken for 69 minutes.
It seems to me that parsing the good/smart vs bad/dumb decision making of one particular character in one particular instance overlooks a recurring theme in GoT… that sometimes life hands you nothing but bad options, all of which (including inaction) have differing consequences. Those consequences can be both good and bad, and those brutal choices can come fast and hard. Even Greensight isn’t as fullproof as hindsight.
That does not mean that Jon’s actions did not impress them. These are people who are willing to accept that enemies are brave and honorable: but they are still enemies. But, in a lot of ways, what Jon did represented why a lot of Northerners are probably sick of the Starks: Jon acted very “honorably” by risking all to save his half-brother, and he then basically mounted a suicide charge when it failed. And his actions of honor and passionate defense of his family basically almost gets his entire army killed. (Of course, they were pretty badly outnumbered, and then out “gunned” given how much better equipped the Westerosi were than the Wildlings!)
Regardless, Jon was not going to win them back by impressing them. The whole idea that any of the Bolton Alliance was going to defect really was way off: there simply was no reason why we should have expected it, and too many reasons why we should have thought that many northerners were going to side against the Wildlings.
Indeed! And it also presents the Catch-22 of these sorts of situations. Jon risking all to try to save Rickon was tactically foolish. However, given how the Westerosi put protecting and advancing one’s family first and foremost among their values, he would have “lost face” with both allies and the enemy if he had not done that: and that would have been politically foolish. Similarly, the Wildlings prize bravery, and they certainly seem to have similar values about protecting their own. Strategy is devising tactics to advance politics: but Jon was in a situation where he could be tactical or political, but not both.
In a lot of ways, Jon lost as soon as Ramsay pulled his little stunt: had he stayed back, then there is no way that that army would have followed him (or Sansa) afterwards; but by rushing in, he kept their loyalty at the cost of their lives.
And that is exactly the Kobayashi Maru test that GRRM likes to do to his characters.
No, I don’t scoff at the idea of marriage: I’ve long argued that Lyanna and Rhaegar might have been married. But what I have argued is that the show and books have set up nothing that could be found that would point to Lyanna being Jon’s parent rather than Ned, or that would be accepted as proof. For example, a simple tactic might have been for Ned to have given Jon something that had belonged to his mother without telling him anything more: and then to have the match for it (or the other half of it) in Lyanna’s tomb. However… why would they open her tomb? And if there is anything there, then why would someone find it now rather than when Bran & Co. were hiding in there for multiple weeks?
So far, the show has a very good track record when it comes to using Deus ex Machina devices (or a very bad one for those fans hoping that different Fan Conjecture devices would be used with no introduction!). Given that the show has introduced nothing that the audience could quickly recognize as being this information, we probably should not expect it!
Instead, look for the hung gun to be fired again. Bran seems to be near a Weirwood tree. Bran knows that there was something more in the Tower. And the Howland Gun has been hung, too: yes, it was fired right away and does not need to be hung again, but it is available for the firing. If Sansa is going to solidify herself as Queen in the North, then it would not be surprising if he appears.
HOWEVER….. I’ve got a really bad feeling that they are not going to tell us on Sunday. My bet is that they are going to give GRRM one more chance to publish it before they show it. Much like Jon’s charge, it (probably) would be very foolish, but it also would be quite honorable! 😀
I’ve been very swamped! I’ve snuck on late at night, which makes for poor interactions: I respond hours (or even a day!) late.
But thanks for asking! Oh, and I like E9 quite a bit. I did not get turned off by Jon’s “stupidity”: Jon has a “saving people thing” that makes Harry Potter look indifferent, and he always was developed as being very fond of (and protective of) his younger siblings. Sansa not telling Jon about the Vale possibility did not bother me as I would have found it completely out-of-character for Jon as he is now to consider this anything more than a letter to Santa Claus.
The only thing that I wish we had seen was a bigger siege outside of Mereen: that way, we would have gotten a stronger parallel between the Dothraki and the Valelords. However, I did appreciate the contrast between Daeny’s easy smashing of the Volantenes and Jon’s excruciatingly costly defeat of the Boltons. And, of course, the Daeny-Yara exchange was great: between this and Sansa arising as a possible Queen in the North, I wonder how many women will be in charge in the end?
But all in all, they’ve done a really good job of giving us a story about the costs of forging and breaking alliances. I am quite keen to see how they cap it off on Sunday! (Probably by firing a few well hung guns: in this case, green liquid guns “hung” under lots of buildings in Kings Landing….) 😀
$100 says Arya took a face before she left HOBW. The face? Catlyn Stark. It’s the only way I can see the show (sort of) giving us LSH after this long…
Anya,
What if we’ll see an unknown person hiding Needle at the Twins? Then Arya would be there though Maisie would not 🙂
What if we’ll see an unknown person hiding Needle at the Twins? Then Arya would be there
Wimsey,
Hi this is my first time posting long time lurker I have a tinfoil theory that little finger knows about lyanna and rheagar. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn’t Brandon Stark at Riverrun getting prepared for his wedding to Cat (when he fought littlefinger)? Did lyanna get ‘kidknapped’ on her way there? What if he has kept that information to himself he insinuated he knew more when talking to Sansa in the crypts. What if Sansa turns him down for his hand in marriage he slips up and says he’s not even your brother, or something like that. I have a feeling he will die and I don’t think she will tell Jon as she has only just got her home back with him as a stark/Snow.
I think Cersie will find out about the wildfire stash from Qybern and blow it up under the great Sept killing The High Sparrow, Lancel, Loras, Margaery and tragically for Cersie, Tommen too as he’ll end up being in the Sept trying to save Margaery when it goes up in flames. This will fulfill the prophesy about Cersies children dying before her. She’ll be completely bereft and when Jaime hears of this (in the next series) he’ll remember that he himself said that she’ll do anything to protect her children but will be so incensed about now having no off spring to carry on his name/legacy and also Frey will brag (before the King’s landing explosion) that he’s got loads of kids and Jaime can’t have any (not officially anyway) that he’ll (Jaime) will head back to Kings Landing confront Cersie and haunted by Freys words of (you can’t have kids hahaha) he’ll strangle the woman who took the only surviving child from him and then he’ll take his own life.
Or the same will happen but she’ll plan to blow herself up and the others during the trial as she feels that she’ll be found guilty and will die anyway but in a twist she’ll be found innocent and let free but Qybern will still light the wildfire because he won’t hear of her not guilty verdict and the above names will die and Cersie will survive.
Ginevra,
He would have got shot in the back with an arrow
Some eagle eyed person spotted Margery, Mace and possibly Kevan behind the HS in the newest picture (last one in the post). I think it’s definitely the first two, not 100% sure if that’s Kevan, although it certainly could be.
Lulus Mum,
I had not noticed that. Well, are they not all conveniently all in one place.
newbietothegame,
Mmmm it’s almost as if something might happen while they are all there, which would be soooo unlike GoT 😉
Wimsey,
“Kobayashi Maru” love the reference and very apropos.
Ginevra,
I just finished watching the Rockstar video… THANK YOU for that…. wow….. great stuff… even if it was for the Arya episode… I subscribed so look forward to more of what this guy has to say.
Again… thanks and I recommend that link
As far as I know, “Hear Me Roar” was playing when Jaime took Riverrun. But “Light of the Seven” has an amazing build and gets so intense – I’m pretty sure that’s the music for Cersei’s trial and whatever she has planned. The title also fits the most popular theory for that scene. 😉
Also I’m baffled every year that there’s no analysis post about the soundtrack including speculation regarding the tracks that haven’t been heard up to this point. Recognizing the themes is always so much fun! And it can tell the fans more than episode titles or promo pictures sometimes.
But not order wise. It will be a pretty boring conclusion if it ends with Sam.