By Marc N. Kleinhenz
A Song of Ice and Fire, the long-running and still-incomplete saga of books that, of course, HBO’s Game of Thrones was based upon, has been part of my life since 2006, when I tore through the novels to help pass the time on my considerable commute while living in Japan. I’ve since written about both the literary and television series for at least six different websites, edited and published a small berth of ebooks on the subject, obsessively listened to the soundtracks while working, and – my personal favorite – prepared countless Feast of Ice and Fire meals with friends (and, even, befriended that cookbook’s author in the process).
All of which, I suppose, helps to explain the realization that has been slowly dawning on me: I miss Game of Thrones – terribly.
It’s an epiphany that first hit me in early March, the usual period of time when I would begin revisiting past episodes and prepare my articles for the new ones. It stayed with me during the advent of our current COVID-19 isolation, and it’s become a regularly recurring companion all the way ‘til now, in late April, when all but one of Thrones’s eight seasons would either just be starting or have already been on the air for the past few weeks.
But along with this longing has come another – and, perhaps, more interesting – emotional punctuation mark: the question of why. Why do I miss this show that, let’s be honest, was brutal more often than uplifting, relied on heaps of shock value and gratuitousness, left a huge swath of its characters in various states of exile (or outright death) in its resolution, and, even for us book readers, was something of a traumatic experience? I think there’s more to it than just the underlying source material having been a consistent part of my life for the past decade-and-a-half, and more to it than my admittedly questionable mental state.
I think this is a question worth exploring, not for whatever myriad faults or ticks that can be exposed in my psyche, but to help assess the value – and the legacy – of HBO’s most popular creation (value and legacy being two properties that Game of Thrones will forevermore possess, regardless of whether co-creators and -showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss stuck the landing of its climax).
Game of Thrones’s environments
Like my nearly life-long obsession with The Legend of Zelda, Star Wars, and theme parks, Game of Thrones did something especially well, and did so consistently across all eight seasons: it created, essentially, whole worlds for the audience to fall into.
The location scouting, set and art design, and cinematography are, in many respects, second to none. The vibrancy of the environments, the majesty of the natural splendor, and the authenticity of the production details – even those wholly fantastical in nature – all combined, scene after scene and episode after episode, to construct an entire reality that we all could get lost in (and, it seems, we often did, and still often do). It didn’t matter that the events that transpired in these breathtaking castles tended to be grotesque, or that the epic vistas were populated with truly wretched individuals – you believed that you were up 700 feet in the air with Jon Snow on the Wall, or walking the twisted streets of King’s Landing with Cersei Lannister, or riding the plains of the Dothraki Sea with Daenerys Targaryen.
And that’s the other thing – beyond the verisimilitude of the settings, there was the sheer variety of them. It’s hard to think of another series, either on the big or small screen, that practically bursts with so many different and distinct environs; from the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros to the Free Cities of Essos and beyond, Game of Thrones covers more ground (no pun intended) than any number of other properties combined.
It’s an unbelievable feat, and a beautiful one. When coupled with Ramin Djawadi’s similarly luscious score and the usually stellar performances of a cast that is itself equally as expansive, it’s actually little wonder that the TV show has struck a chord and continued to stay with me despite all the psychological injuries it inflicted across its eight-year run.
And speaking of that cast of characters…
Game of Thrones is a soap opera
Let’s start with an admission that may or may not be an open secret: HBO’s biggest series is a glorified (and gorified) soap opera.
Characters get married – and then divorced, but only kind of, and only when one of them flees for her life with another man who clearly lusts after her. There are abusive relationships (and, sometimes, incestuous ones), and extra-marital affairs a-plenty, and individuals who go missing for years on end and then return – even from the dead (literally). There are betrayals, murders, and other life-changing developments on a regular, if not weekly, basis, and all of it slathered on with enough salaciousness to make Tony Soprano sit up and take notice.
This is the stuff that loyal television watching is made of, stretching all the way back to the medium’s earliest days, when the content was created around the desire to sell commercial products to housewives (the modern habit of binging can eat its heart out – it still has nothing on the half-century-plus of soap operatic history). But calling a spade a spade should do nothing to lessen the explanation of its everlasting appeal; although most soaps are, clearly, nothing but fluff, they still trade in the fundamentals of drama that have captivated audiences ever since the earliest cave paintings. And consider this: the best stories just take the core histrionics of our modern soap operas and add on thematic substance and character development atop of it, which is precisely what Game of Thrones did (and, for the most part, did exceedingly well).
The other all-important elevation of the genre that HBO’s show accomplishes – and, no, we don’t have to get into whether Weiss and Benioff did so with aplomb (or not) – is that it actually had that magical and elusive item called an ending. The criticalness of this point cannot be overstated, despite its seemingly mundane nature; this is the very reason why, say, comic books (that other variation on the soap opera) can shed readers at an alarming clip over the years but that the Marvel Cinematic Universe keeps expanding its own viewership – even Iron Man’s story, after all, must reach a climax, despite how many throngs of additional fans he has picked up along the way (and how much of a soap his own journey has become, with one-night trysts, on-and-off-again engagements, a muddled relationship with his [costumed] identity, and, at the end, a family of his own).
When taken altogether, you get the up-and-down-again travails of the mighty Tyrion Lannister, or the noble suffering of stoic Jorah Mormont, or the sullen-but-handsome brooding of the wayward Jon Snow – and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Game of Thrones’s community
Obviously, I wasn’t taking in Game of Thrones by myself – the whole world was reacting to the series over the course of its eight seasons, building a truly staggering audience and accruing a whole assortment of cultural artifacts along the way.
Now, I have to admit – somewhat regrettably – that I never got into the trend of holding watch parties every Sunday night, gathering friends to bear witness to that week’s particular brutalities while also usually consuming mass quantities of food and wine (although, in the first few seasons, I did make it a point to watch the series with an Unsullied buddy, just to engage in a little schadenfreude as he experienced Eddard Stark’s beheading or the primal violation that was the Red Wedding for the first time). But I did manage to watch the show’s entire run in real time, something I had missed out on with such HBO heavies as The Sopranos and Deadwood and, even, Boardwalk Empire, and I couldn’t help but let the countless tweets, YouTube compilations, and other reactionary sundries seep into my (sub)consciousness. When it came to Thrones, no viewer was an island unto himself – and we were all the better for it.
Let’s invoke that Star Wars parallel again. David Benioff and Dan Weiss’s (and, sure, author George R.R. Martin’s) baby built for itself an entire cultural moment – and movement. It’s yet to be seen whether this epoch-defining period can make the transition into a longer, permanent presence, just as filmmaker George Lucas’s cinematic baby did with the multimedia attachment of its so-called Star Wars Expanded Universe – this is, perhaps, where House of the Dragon and other potential spinoffs come into play – but its legacy is already well ensconced. In fact, another pop-culture comparison is probably in order here: The X-Files became a touchstone for an entire generation of television viewers as well as creators, with its writing-producing staff going on to pollinate a wide berth of subsequent projects within the medium – most notably, perhaps, being Breaking Bad, in more ways than one. (And, hey, let’s not forget that X-Files had an unfathomably terrible ending – twice. This still doesn’t take away from the sublimity of its previous seasons and/or films.)
So, so long, Game of Thrones – and its wider berth of fans. It was a legendary ride, one that I would gladly do all over again in a heartbeat, and I’m glad that you were there by my side – even if a bit remotely.
Marc N. Kleinhenz is the editor-in-chief of Orlando Informer. He’s also written for 31 other sites (including Screen Rant, IGN, and Tower of the Hand, where he serves as consulting editor), has appeared on radio and television news as a pop-culture specialist, served as a consultant on the theming industry, and has even taught English in Japan.
Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for 8 brilliant scenes and a brilliant finale, I’ll always be grateful.
All in all, it was well done. I do wish that they had altered the “Scouring of the Shire” plot trajectory and I do wish that they had provided a “why” for the White Walkers. Alas! Such things will never come to pass.
Most of the time during its run we would have been smack in the middle of a season right now. It would be really nice to have that this year – could really use it.
Definitely. I was reflecting last month how fun the hype period was before each season began. I miss that too. I loved speculating about photos/promos/interviews, etc. 🙂
Post production would have been effected, so they would have probably delayed the entire season instead of airing what was already finished.
Amazing show from start to finish. Especially the brilliant last season and marvelous final episode. Lots of thanks to Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for their brilliant writing which defined this show. I just started my rewatch and it’s so magnificent. I will do a ranking of all episodes and season and post my final thoughts here and I will always be greatful of course!
I’m just about to enjoy the first episode of the fourth series of ‘The Last Kingdom’, which arrived on Netflix today. I highly recommend it and if you haven’t seen it, you’ve got 38 episodes awaiting you.
Can’t wait to watch Season 4 this week.
Clob,
Today is April 26th. “The long night” was aired on April 28th 2019. It isn’t difficult to remember how excited we were precisely a year ago. It was the most hyped TV episode ever. It is the proof that GoT wasn’t only the biggest TV series ever, but also a worldwide common experience. The sense of community generated along the seasons contributos tremendously to the show’s success. It’s also the aspect I miss the most in not having GoT. Maybe that’s why I’ll give HotD a shot. The timing of this article is very pertinent.
Wimsey,
In the show at least, the White Walkers are essentially a malevolent force of nature, brought about by mankind’s innate appetite for the destruction of nature. They don’t ever speak, as a human would. They don’t need a “why” anymore than a climate-change-induced hurricane or wildfire do. To quote Chernobyl: “When the bullet hits your skull, what will it matter why?”
But beyond that, the relationship between the NK and the 3ER is explored. I recently watched S7 & S8 with a friend, who’d never seen them, and during S8E3 he pointed out something I’d never considered: the NK and the 3ER are two sides of the same coin. The NK represents death and forgetting, while the 3ER represents life and memory.
I miss Game of Thrones, too. Why? Because it was fucking awesome and now it’s gone.
But a thing isn’t beautiful because it lasts.
Jack Bauer 24,
The LightKing,
🚫 “Brilliant” 🚫
C’mon guys. There are plenty of other adjectives you can use.
Nothing Gold Can Stay
– Robert Frost (1874 – 1963)
Nature’s first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf’s a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.
Beautiful 🙂
You know me. I’m speculating about Arya’s spinoff show in ~ 2025.
I know I’m not the only one.
🗡👸🏻
And what she’ll find west of west?
(It occurs to me — do people in Westeros believe the world is round or is this a flat Earth scenario where people believe a protective crust of mountains exists around the edge of the world?)
Adrianacandle,
I subconsciously stole that line “I know I’m not the only one” (to be speculating about a future spinoff.)
And that provides a convenient pretext for injecting today’s musical interlude:
“Future Games” (1971) Fleetwood Mac
(8:19 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL6PWUq1vqA
—-
“Well I know I’m not the only one
To ever spend my life sitting,
playing future games.
So you better take your time
You know there’s no escape
The future sends a sign
Of things we will create.”
Nice transition! 😉
Part of the magic of GoT was also the prosaic fact that it was screened as weekly episodes. So we had the pleasure of discussing it and speculating, with everyone on the same page.
I’m denied that with The Last Kingdom because the fan sites are full of people who have already watched all ten episodes, though it’s been available for less than a day. Such a shame.
I like to savour things properly, taste and digest them before moving on to the next course. We had no other option with GoT, and our enjoyment was enhanced by that.
Adrianacandle,
Apologies for the Monty Python + S4e10 GoT mashup. I’d like the Arya spinoff to start with….
Arya (to crew): “On second thought, let’s not go west of Westeros. ‘Tis a silly place.”
***
“I want to go north. To the Wall.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut1VEoOZ2hA
at 0:43
Ten Bears,
Which adjectives do you suggest?
Adrianacandle,
Brilliant.
Ten Bears,
That’s such a beautiful scene — and I just love that music.
(Speaking of GoT mash-ups, have you ever seen this?)
GoT Ice Ice Baby 😀
Game of Thrones was first real television blockbuster. Showrunner of Mr Robot Sam Esmail and critic Chris Ryan called it “Star Wars of television”.
And I truly belive in that. It changed the history of the medium. GoT’s legacy is Westworld, and The Witcher, Amazon’s LOTR, Wheel of Time, House of the Dragon,…
Phenomenal. Awesome. Breathtaking. Unprecedented. Masterful. Fabulous. Marvelous. Ineffable. Beyond superlative. Incredible. Wonderful. Amazing. F*cking out of this world. Spellbinding. Engrossing. Excellent. Jaw-droppingly good. Unparalleled.
There must be hundreds more.
I think it was Pigeon or another commenter who explicated the term “semantic [something]” – I forget the exact terminology – to describe when a word or sound is repeated so frequently or is so overused that it begins to lose its meaning.
That’s what’s happened to “bri****nt.”
Also – and this is just a humble suggestion – why not explain how and why something was bri****nt, instead of using that label without elaboration?
Adrianacandle,
”That’s such a beautiful scene — and I just love that music.“
I was a latecomer to GoT. I binge-watched S1-S3 during HBO’s pre-Season 4 marathon. Season 4 was the first season I watched as a week-to-week viewer.
That last segment of S4e10 was so rousing and so… [insert superlative here]. . The swelling music, the choral (?) singing, the cinematography… A perfect ending to what I now know was the best season of GoT.
By the way, I’m still working on my soundtrack compilations for each character. (Night King comes first. 🥶) I’ve got a couple for Arya in the style of that final segment of “The Children.” Lemme see if I can find them and post a few without derailing this comment section.
Adrianacandle,
No, I had not seen that “Ice, Ice Baby” mashup. Color me unimpressed: How can someone do an “Ice, Ice Baby” mashup video without even one scene of the Stark ancestral sword Ice????
Ni! Ni! Ni!
Great post, agree with your observations about what we miss so much about it. Let’s start with an admission that may or may not be an open secret: HBO’s biggest series is a glorified (and gorified) soap opera.
Oh absolutely no question about it! Also think of it as one of the old cliffhanger shows from the 60s, to keep you watching week after week.
Aside from the show itself, what I miss is the discussions afterwards. I think communities like this, that started preproduction for heavens sakes, kept us interested and talking and eager for more I miss all the creativity and imagination that went into so many theories, and miss the intellegent and even heated discussions that kept me thinking. . But a year later we are still at it; another thread reliving some of the parts both in the books and the show (I quit reading after 700 comments, got busy with RL, guess I should see if its got to 1000 yet!) And a year later I still wonder how everyone is doing; miss seeing the people that were tied into the show itself and my enjoyment of it. Hope they turn up here to say hi.
Thank you for reminding me of all I miss. I have the audio books on repeat every night to fall asleep to and listen to if I wake in the early hours. Makes for some interesting dreams – the Lannister’s responsible for WW1 (I’m a high school history teacher so what a mash up!)
I miss Game of Thrones too. I think it was the sheer investment in the characters and plot, I really rooted for Jon Snow, Tyrion, Arya, The Hound, I loved those characters whilst others flip flopped between heroes and villains (Jamie, Dany, Cersei) and there were others I loathed (Ramsay, Joff, Mountain). I cannot imagine another show holding that much emotional attachment with me for some time.
Finding this site after suffering through the troll filled site ran by the two “Swedish super fans” was also a blessing. I still return here often, read the articles, enjoy the interaction with fellow posters and don’t see that I’ll leave any time soon either.
You are right, the hype for that episode was unrivalled and one of the reasons I suspect some people left it with mild disappointment/criticism i.e. it was impossible to live up to expectation. That said though rewatch it again and it’s a masterwork of television which for sheer scale has no rival. Yes, there are a couple of minor plot points which feel a bit dumb but it’s brilliant action TV and better than the Battle of the Bastards by some way in my view.
I’d read that story! (And what a great mash-up to dream!)
Ah! Good point! I didn’t even realize! XD
Great posts, ash and Tiago 🙂
Tiago’s post made me realize that yesterday does mark a year since The Long Night aired and a year later, discussion is still going strong, as ash mentioned. I think Game of Thrones was an incredible experience, especially in terms of how wide-reaching it was and how shared it was. It really was a worldwide phenomenon so many different people came together to watch for various reasons (even my auntie who would refer to Dany and her dragons as ‘Kelsey’ and her ‘dinosaurs’ XD).
Before Game of Thrones, I never thought I’d be discussing ice zombies, magic priestesses, and dragons with my mother, who was never able to get into anything remotely connected to fantasy prior to Game of Thrones.
(Dad is another story. While dating her, he used to make my mum answer Dr Who trivia to determine whether or not she’d be getting a ride ;D She always got a ride, even though she could never answer one Dr Who/LoTR/Star Wars/Star Trek/Monty Python/etc. question correctly.)
That was the point I made in my earlier post.
Most series nowadays have all episodes available at once, and this kills the discussion because some people binge the entire series in one sitting.
I’d miss GoT if the show ended a little better.
Sometimes I miss the older episodes, but then I remember how it all ended and suddenly I don’t miss it as much.
Mr Derp,
The ending was Incredible!
Mr Derp,
Not sure I trust that you don’t care, since you are still part of online fandom, a year after the show ended.
It reminds me of those TLJ haters.
But that’s just my opinion.
The LightKing,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfOlohfMrvY
👸🏻🔪🩸
The only problem is that I never said that I didn’t care.
Its the same with me. I find it kind of frustrating actually because I WANT to look back more fondly.
I just compare it to April 2018 when we didnt get a new season and I was waaay more nostalgic to the overall experience of watching the show than I am now. And that was after Season 7, which at the time I thought was the weakest season of all. Still Ok, but not great. I thought S7EP1-S7EP4 were pretty Good, and S7EP7 was a great set up for what could have been a amazing/satisfying ending.
I find it more frustrating now looking back at exactly one year ago, when we were waiting for S8EP3 and how thrilled we were with the episode A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.
Meraxes,
Episode 3 of season 8 in ky opinion is and incredible episode of TV. I was amazed at what I was seeing on screen.
I actually wasn’t as big a fan of “Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” as a lot of other posters seemed to be. Don’t get me wrong. It was one of the better episodes of the season, but nothing really happened in that episode. I loved Brienne getting knighted, but the rest of the episode was pretty middling for me. I think if this episode took place in the middle of seasons 4 or 6 it would be a rather forgettable episode, IMO.
The issues in season 8 started for me pretty much right away in the first episode of the season. I’m not going to get into too many details as this horse has been beaten to death, but my first impression of episode 1 was one of disappointment.
I remember Petra got to see the advanced screening of episode 1 and wrote a review here about it. She said it was one of the best episodes ever in the entire run of GoT, but that’s definitely not what I thought after I saw the first episode. Her review had me hyped up, but I specifically remember coming to the conclusion after I watched the episode that the episode wasn’t particularly good and Petra was just being nice because she was invited to the screening.
Most of the time, the first episode of the season is one of the weaker ones, so I chalked it up to that. However, as the season unfolded, box-checking clearly took precedent over everything else and I grew increasingly frustrated as the season went along.
Then we got the last episode with the dragonpit meeting, which, IMO, was a complete disaster, went against everything GoT previously stood for, and made very little sense in the scheme of things. I think D&D did a great job of adapting GRRM’s work until the source material ran out, but not so much after that. Overall, I have a great amount of respect for what they did with the earlier seasons in the show.
Fireandblood87,
Yeah, I also belong to the group that thinks that episode 3 is overall great. My disapointment comes from episodes 4-6 and the way Dany’s arc was handled.
I was even on board with having the WW threat be over by episode 3 IF (this is a big If) the rest of the season would have dealt with the aftermath of the Great War (dealing with the cost of human lives, economic aftermath and stuff like that) and maybe having Dany go dark be a direct consequence of this. I mean, the fact that the Apocalypse happened and nobody is talking about it afterwards is kind of frustrating. And no, I’m not talking about the pyres and the party, I’m talking about how does WESTEROS deal with this. How are the main characters dealing with this? Are they sad? Inspired? Depressed?
I wouldn’t be making a deal out of this if over the course of the show we hadn’t had many episodes and storylines dealing with the consequenses of big events. The other big event that I think suffered in retrospect for a lack of a satisfying follow up was the blowing up of the Sept of Baelor.
I get the impression that they wrote the last season two seasons backwards. As in, “we have to make Dany go crazy”, and that decision affected the way the all the other storylines and characters were written and the overall show suffered for it.
Meraxes,
I would agree here as well. I didn’t dislike the Long Night episode a lot. I had problems with it, but I voted that episode as the best of the season in the WOTW poll this past year.
I hated Dany’s heel turn too. Not the fact that it happened, but how it happened. You can’t spend 7 plus seasons building up Dany the way they did just to reverse all of it within 3 episodes.
Ok, so she gets to Westeros and she’s not loved. So? She wasn’t immediately accepted in every city she conquered in Essos either, but she did what she needed to do to establish trust and the love of her constituents. Why couldn’t she try that strategy in Westeros? It’s like she didn’t even try, nor did her advisors.
And she snapped at the end specifically because the citizens of KL did not immediately embrace her as a liberator. However, she had already won the war at that point. She could’ve simply tried doing what she did in Essos. Win the people over after the conquering is done.
Also, she had already resigned herself to ruling by fear before blowing KL to smithereens, so it should NOT have been shocking to her when she wasn’t cheered on as a liberator.
As I’ve said before, her snapping would’ve made so much more sense if she was losing the fight and had to decide out of desperation whether or not to kill innocents to get what she wanted. She had already won and still decided to kill innocents. It made no sense at all.
I don’t there was any turn with Daenerys. She just did what she always wanted to do.
When it comes to Daenerys, I think the problem for some people is that they don’t consider what could have been if circumstances were different.
For example Daenerys didn’t burn an entire already defeated army in S7 because they were so affraid after she burned Tarlys that they knelt.
Daenerys didn’t burn Red Keep (with thousands of innocents, Cersei would probably bring them in like she did in S8) in S7 because Jon convinced her otherwise.
She didn’t attack KL with dragons the moment she came to Westeros because Tyrion convinced her not to do that.
She didn’t burn Astapor, Yunkai and Volantis because Tyrion conviced her not to do it.
She didn’t organize massacre in Astapor and Yunkai in S4 because Jorah convinced her not to do it.
And do on.
But the fact that she was really close to doing these horrible things and she was stopped right before she did it, meant that it was just a matter of time( and right circumferences) until she actually does it. And this is what we got at the end. She was emotionally and mentally unstable, after everything that happened to her in Westeros and she burned them all.
The main point D&D did in their execution, which really is a key trait of Game of Thrones, is make her downfall in some way shocking/surprising. It doesn’t matter how much they supported it throughout the story, it is pretty certain that they actively wanted people to support Dany and then be shocked by her downfall.
They wanted people to root for burning of KL. After E4 there was a post-episode poll on r/game of thrones where majority of people supported Dany burning KL in the next episode. It was almost 60%. And more than 150 000 people voted.
So they never wanted it to be obvious. If they did it would completely undermine their main point – demonstrating the danger of populism and revolutionary rhetoric/power through making the audience make them same mistakes as the characters. It’s an absolutely ballsy and groundbreaking move. That doesn’t mean there can’t be a discussion over whether it made sense at all – but it’s a lot harder to ask. Nonetheless, if you do pick apart the story, look for the clues, there is an absolute enormity of evidence for Daenerys’ character fall – her messianic complex, her ego and entitlement, being reined in by her advisers constantly, her convenient and loosely defined morals, her emotional instability – that its hard to say it wasn’t justified.
Don’t you always say how much you hate Reddit and don’t trust it because they’re disrespectful to D&D?
Mr Derp,
Danys downfall made absolutly sense. If you don’t buy it that’s your fault. If you can’t accept it that’s also your fault.
What is if you lost everything?
From childhood you didn’t had a mother or father or anyone who loves or cares about you. Only a psyochpath brother who “rapes” you mentally and uses you for his own benefit. All this time you’ve had one dream, the Iron Throne because it’ll allow you to break this vicious cycle if hate and suffering, but he gets sold off to a warlord who rapes and mistreats you. But you eventually change his view and you to fall in love but once in your life you have something. You’re a Khaleesi and your husband loves you and you are pregnant. However, before you can have your child your husband gets poisend by a witch and you have to strangle him yourself. Then you lose your baby and all. You’re left with three baby Dragons. Now these Dragons mean everything to you. They’re essentially the only children you’ll ever have. However, you continue building your support, you have Jorah, Missandei, Greyworm, Barristan and Daario Naharis who were all loyal to you and support your dream of breaking the wheel. Some of them die but you finally come to Westeros where she realize you have no support and instead Jon Snow the King in the North does. You two fall in love and he bends the knee. However, people don’t trust you or support you. Of course they don’t know you. You lose one of your children for them and they still don’t support or love you. You saved their King, their Brother and they still don’t like or respect you. You safe them in the Battle of Winterfell in which you lose one of your most loyal and beloved friends and more than half of your amry, still they don’t trust you and Jon Snow has just told you that he actually has a much better claim to the Throne than you do. And you begged him not to tell anyone but he does anyways betraying your trust. Then another of her children gets murdered and your best friend gets kidnapped while you get betrayed by the only you have left. Tyrion, Varys and Jon. Finally you watch as your best friend gets their head chopped off by your enemy. This initself is enough to warrant someone going crazy or wanting revenge. In S8E5 Daenerys reaches out to Jon Snow but he refuses to give her the love she desperately needs because he’s not fully sure yet. This is such a vital tipping point and so many people just ignored it. Daenerys had lost everything at this point and no one supportes her in this forgein land. She knows that people won’t be satisfied with her as the ruler. They rather have Jon Snow. However, she still has this one spark of light in her life. One person who could save her, Jon Snow. But he can’t. He steps away from her and then she realizes it, she’ll always be alone and the only way she can finally take the Throne and make her dream come true is through fear. Fear is one of the most powerful emotions that she saw herself with Sam and many times before. And she knows she has no either choice now.
At this point she only has her dream, the only thing that has always been with her and she’s always believed in and she sees only one way of making it a reality. It’s like Tyrion said: “Love is more powerful than reason”. She’s acting out of her emotions here, not logic. Her motivations are there. If you knew anything about psychology and trauma and the effects they can have on a person. Then you know that such a mountain of traumatic life experience can really fuck with your mind. It’s not unreasonable that Daenerys who has lost control of several times would snap. Of course she would. It’s the only option she has left. She doesn’t want to kill innocents but in her mind now, the only way she can create a good life for these people is to have the power to do so and this is the only way to gain that power. She knows she’ll have to be a monster in order to make a positive change. She didn’t feel the other characters and the other characters failed her. Everyone just turned against her. So tell me what you would have done. If she had just taken the red keep and killed Cersei people wouldn’t have followed her her at least not from what she’s observed. Jon Snow or someone else would always be there with bigger claim than her. She had no other options so her motivations are completely justified with the information that the show laid out. People did worse for less.
ASNAWP!!!
Pretty sure I couldn’t manage my excitement if that ever got announced.
I didn’t read all of your comment. tl/dr, so I skimmed through parts of it. Thanks for telling me what is and is not my fault though. I don’t know what I would’ve done without it. Especially coming from the guy who admitted he used multiple accounts here just to make it look like the show was received better. That must’ve been my fault too.
Are you sure they’d rather have Jon Snow? The North (his own people) was conspiring against him and pushing for Sansa to take over the minute Jon left Winterfell. And the people of KL are sheep. They don’t care who rules over them. If it wasn’t already obvious to begin with, it should’ve become obvious the moment that Cersei was allowed to be Queen of KL after the wildfire incident without so much as an investigation. There were clearly rumors that Cersei did it, but no one was going to do anything about it.
Honestly, the people of KL should be the least of Dany’s problems in the immediate take-over. If they let Cersei rule over them after blowing up the Sept then it shouldn’t be any different because Dany burned the Red Keep.
The relationship between Jon and Dany in season 8 was confusing. Especially Dany’s attitude towards it. Once she became the big bad after burning KL, common sense dictates that she should see Jon as a rival and enemy considering his rightful claim over her. She should kill him right away, but she still wants to rule the world with him. Dany saw the danger in Jon’s claim earlier in the season, but after she won, it was like she kind of forgot about Jon’s claim.
Mr Derp,
Wow, I cant believe that you still come up with this “multiple accounts” nosense …
The LightKing,
It goes a very long way in understanding your motive for being here in the first place and why you make the comments you do.
I don’t recall you being a frequent poster here at all when the show was actually airing. I believe you only started coming here (with that name) after the show ended. You made your introduction by using multiple accounts specifically to drive up the amount of positive comments towards the final season. You admitted as much.
You only comment here when someone has a criticism of the final season. You’ve actually said some very disrespectful things to me in the past, which I didn’t take the bait for. It doesn’t take a detective to piece together your motive for coming here.
I’m not going to get drawn into another heated debate about the ending with someone whose butt puckers tighter than a snare drum the moment season 8 or D&D get criticized. I don’t mind if people really liked the final season. If you thought it was the greatest thing ever than good for you. What I won’t stand for are the same handful of people blowing a gasket every time anything short of sycophantic praise for D&D comes their way.
If you want to have an honest, civil, respectful, calm conversation about the show then I’m game. I noticed you didn’t address my response about Dany though, so if not, you’re just going to have to get over it and move on.
Mr Derp,
I came here on this site, after season 7 ended. I started pretty late with the show. I wrote my first comments before season 8 started and later after it ended. I was never disrespectful to you. I just called you a hater nothing else. That’s just my opinion. It seems that you don’t like positive comments about S8 or the showrunners. I’m here because it is the only site about Game of Thrones where there are also positive people. I wrote a normal comment and you can’t give a normal answer, so I won’t argue with you any further.
George Lucas referred to Star Wars as a soap opera in space. It was really about a dysfunctional family. So your comparison to falling into it’s world along with the soap opera point are very appropo.
I gave you a “normal’ answer, which you didn’t address at all.
If you’re all about being positive, which I think is great, then maybe spend your time here actually being positive instead of calling people “haters” that don’t share your opinion. Perhaps you should also stop telling people to go to other sites and avoid this one because they said something you disagreed with. You’re visiting a place for it’s positivity while infecting it with negativity at the same time. it makes no sense.
You’ve called people “arrogant morons”, you’ve said I’m what’s wrong with this fandom and called me a hater multiple times simply because we disagree, which I would certainly consider disrespectful at best. It’s not just me. Multiple other posters have asked you to stop behaving this way. You’ve also made other derogatory comments towards me, but I can’t remember them all nor do I need to in order to know bullshit when I see it.
Have a good one.
There’s a safe haven for Season 8 fans and fans of the show overall. Really welcoming place with great discussions on the brilliance of this show, the finale, and Mr. Benioff and Mr Weiss. A place where you don’t have to post in fear of being ridiculed or downvoted to hell. I’ll pm you the info.
JFC Jack. Do you realize Light King is the one doing all of the ridiculing and name-calling on this site?
I suppose being disrespectful is ok as long as you’re on the same side though, right?
What is the big issue with the Dragonpit scene? King Bran the Broken has the best story and that is what Westeros needs moving forward. Tyrion’s speech was brilliant and heartfelt and couldn’t have been any better. The other lords and ladies were swayed by the speech and realized Bran is what they needed. Who else would Yara, the new Prince of Dorne, etc settle on if not for the Broken One?
As long as we’re commiserating about missing the show, for nostalgia’s sake here’s a pre-Season 2 Thronecast interview of Charles Dance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEzpu4H9gGg
At 5:02 – 5:57, he’s asked about his favorite scene. Answer (of course): It’s with Maisie Williams, in S2e7.
Charles Dance: “I’ve got quite a few scenes with that wonderful little girl…who’s desperate to stick a knife in my back.”
“…And she’s fabulous actually, great great kid.”
I meant being ridiculed elsewhere like on social media and certain sub reddits. I’ve had a pretty positive experience here overall, but there’s another place I’ve been frequenting that is pretty much exclusively Season 8 fans, so it’s refreshing for me since I loved it and still love the show overall. My comment had nothing to do with your squabble with Light King. I just know he’s a fan as well, so I wanted to put that out there.
I have no issue with you. We don’t agree on the final seasons and that’s fine. You’ve been here for years with me and we’ve had many discussions over that time. I don’t harbor any ill will towards you.
That might be my favorite non-action scene as well. Those Arya-Tywin conversations will always have a special place in my heart. They were…luminescent 😉
Thanks for that. I appreciate it and I’m glad you found a place where you can discuss with fellow fans who generally agree on everything. I know you loved the final season Jack and I think that’s terrific.
I think it’s worth noting that Light King’s behavior here has been extremely poor and he’s been one of the more disrespectful posters here in a little while. I would caution against rewarding that behavior as well as exposing your friends to such a person. That was the spirit of my comment.
Thanks, Ten Bears!
Jack Bauer 24,
I’m positive you and I have already discussed the dragonpit scene and my issues with it. There’s no real point in getting into the specifics again. Your mind is already made up, so let’s just agree to disagree 🙂
Adrianacandle,
… And here’s a bookend to the Charles Dance pre-Season 2 Thronecast interview:
Maisie Williams’s pre-Season 2 Thronecast interview (in early 2012, I think.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYnK5ZLMKVA
at 5:45 – 6:40, she’s asked about working with Charles Dance, and the Tywin & Arya show-only (non-book) scenes.
at 5:45
Q: “We talked to Charles Dance recently, and he told us you were his favorite actor in the whole series. Was he someone you were aware of? What was it like working with him?”
—
Also….
at 1:14 Auditioning process; dancing background.
1:42 Audition – sing and dance
1:50 -1:57 Asked if she’s disappointed no singing in GoT *
* Flash forward to 2020 Audi Super Bowl commercial, in which Maisie Williams sings “Let It Go,” recorded at Abbey Road Studios.
—————-
Okay, I admit I am an unabashed ASNAWP Fan Boy. Still, am I wrong that this girl just exudes charm and charisma? I mean, Charles Dance used words like “wonderful” and “fabulous” to describe her.
Plus, when I first started watching GoT, I was five seconds away from clicking off my remote just a few minutes into the first episode … until that arrow zinged into the bullseye 🎯 and that mischievous little girl took a bow.
So I never would’ve continued watching the show but for Arya/Maisie Williams. I am not sure there are many other child actresses who could’ve pulled it off the way she did. Apparently, the Big Kahuna and the Two Ds felt the same way. They’ve often talked about how finding her was a godsend.
Mr Derp,
Did you write a list or something? I never called someone a “arrogant moron” on this site. I meant the people on Youtube and Reddit. Yeah, I called you hater, because you are one. I never saw a positive comment from you, just complaining and there is indeed much wrong with this fandom. The examples are all there and I bet that you reported my account to the admins back then, because you didn’t like my positive comments about the show. The showrunners are great people so I don’t unterstand were the problem is, when I call them Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss. You didn’t even read my whole comment and you attacked me in the first sentence so I will not give you a answer.
Thanks for those other links!
I agree with this. When I was watching HDM, I thought MW would be great in the role of Lyra. Lyra and Arya have differences, that’s true and DK is fine, but I think MW has the right spirit for Lyra (and if this were 2009, would look the right age for the role — 11 . I think 14-year old DK was a bit too mature looking for 11-year old Lyra).
MW is perfect as Arya. Those casting photos GRRM had on his LiveJournal a while back showed Arya rather than MW, I think.
Jack Bauer 24,
Pray tell: where is this other place filled with S8 fans?
Jack Bauer 24,
I look forward to visiting this magical place. Thank you. 👍
Mr Derp,
Your mind’s made up, too. *shrug*
Again, there is no equivalence in behavior of those who liked and hated S8. Only one group online is toxic and aggresive.
Mr Derp,
So out of eveything I said you will talk about this point? Ok.
I know you always make excuses for hate against D&D on reddit and on twitter and YT because you were insulted here by one (1) S8 fan, and I was on the other hand talking about a huge sub with over a million people who said horrible things about showrunners.
But go on. Talk about “toxic” D&D fans. That’s the real problem in this fandom.
Tried to PM you, but it says you don’t have a forum account.
Jack Bauer 24,
Oh, uh… let me see to that.
My account requires activation by the administrator group. Has anyone had any luck making an account lately, or am I doomed to be forever account-less?
Farimer123,
Sorry, Russian bots abound by the thousand so we usually need a heads up when you want to activate. It should be active now.
Mr Derp,
oh pls, yes yes we know we all have our gripes about it all. But Im really tired of reliving all that and would prefer that we focus on the why this all happened and why so many people, like you, continue to think on it. If not, then Ill just plan on scrolling. no biggie, just a thought
Ten Bears,
I could probably spend many hours just listening to interviews with the cast; and Dance well I could listen to him read from a phone book and be quite delighted ..
Sue the Fury,
It still says the account is currently inactive 🙁
Adrianacandle,
” MW is perfect as Arya. Those casting photos GRRM had on his LiveJournal a while back showed Arya rather than MW, I think.”
I’m not sure I understand. The GRRM blog casting photos I remember first had a black & white head shot of a gap-toothed young Maisie Williams, followed by a few photos of MW in leotards holding a Needle-type sword.
Or do you mean to say that MW looked so much like fans imagined Arya to look based on the books’ description, that looking at the casting photos was like seeing Arya come to life? Because that’s exactly what many of the commenters under the LiveJournal entry were saying.
Adrianacandle,
P.S. I have not seen “His Dark Materials” (HDM) or read the books.
Next up on my “To Watch” list is “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.” I’ve been meaning to start watching that show for some time. I have not been able to. (For better or worse, I am working from home, so my time is still not my own. 😷)
I take it that “Lyra” is a young heroine in HDM.
Should I read the HDM books before ASOIAF?
Hi there! I’ve been activated for the Forum section for some time, so no problems on my end.
However, from other commenters’ recounting of their experiences with the activation process, I suspect they’ll want to know how to give you a heads up when they want to activate.
I’ve been looking forward to posting more in the Forum section once it’s more populated.
Ten Bears,
Ah, sorry — I wasn’t clear T_T Yes, this is what I meant! I was thinking of those photos of MW holding that sword 🙂
YAY! I’m glad it’s next! Tell me what you think when you’re able to!
Yes, Lyra is HDM’s protagonist — I think Tron mentioned reading the books helped with understanding the television series and its universe. There are three books, they’re not very long (300-500 pages each, I think), and it’s a complete series! 🙂
Me too! Although I’m sure I’ve seen some of these cast interviews before, so many years have passed that it’s like taking a trip down memory lane. Plus, knowing now what the young actors have accomplished on the show and in other endeavors in the intervening years since their S1 or S2 interviews makes those interviews so much more enjoyable to rewatch.
That’s why, for example, I got a kick out of young Maisie talk about her trepidation about singing – because I can match that up with her more-confident, present day self talking about the opportunity to sing in the Audi commercial. (The Audi “Behind the Scenes” or “Making of” video is better than the TV commercial itself.)
ash,
FYI: Here’s the Audi (2020) “Behind the Scenes with Maisie Williams” video I was referring to in my prior comment at 10:01 pm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFSEItcSfw
—-
There will never be a show like GOT in my lifetime. I can literally list hundreds of scenes that I consider to be the best television has to offer. It also has many outstanding characters that I will unlikely ever forget. If House of the Dragon is half as good, I will consider it to be a great success.
Jon Snowed,
Isn’t it sad though that for many people it might take a 2nd viewing to appreciate the technical mastery of it all? I mean I understand being in the moment of the plot but at the end you’ve still got to appreciate the work.
Mr Derp,
I find this post very strange because earlier you claimed you didn’t want to beat a dead horse.
Anyway, no, Danerys sacking King’s Landing didn’t go against her character at all. Danerys has always had dark impulses and she’s threatened to burn down cities before. There’s a scene in season 6 where she’s seriously considering burning down Yunkai and Astapor. Besides all the other morally questionable things she’s done, that one scene alone makes all the criticisms of how burning down King’s Landing was out of character or it came out of nowhere fall completely flat.
She was loved by many slaves the moment she liberated the cities. They proclaimed her to be Mysa and the Breaker of Chains. They did not choose the masters over her, whereas the people of King’s Landing chose Cersei. And it wasn’t just their rejection. There were many factors in play. Rhaegal’s death, Missandei’s death, Sansa’s betrayal, Varys’s betrayal, losing confidence in Tyrion, Jon’s rejection, etc. All of these things happening at once caused Danerys to give in to her dark impulses.
Saying that it was out of character for Danerys to burn King’s Landing because she had already won doesn’t really hold water either. She had won when attacking Mereen, but the violence didn’t stop there. She moved on to the punishment phase and crucified masters for the dead children, some of whom were innocent of the crime she was accusing them of. Burning down King’s Landing was a punishment to the people who chose Cersei, which led to the deaths of Missandei and Rhaegal.
Isn’t it sad though that for many people it might take a 2nd viewing to appreciate the technical mastery of it all? I mean I understand being in the moment of the plot but at the end you’ve still got to appreciate the work.
This 100%. I’m unable to binge watch shows because I just can’t take in that much at a time without inevitably forgetting something. It’s so much more enjoyable and enriching to the experience to watch, reflect, and discuss.
Out of the 73 episodes spanning eight seasons there are so many eminently rewatchable scenes that make me appreciate the technical mastery and the storytelling, even if a few episodes or a few storylines (in my subjective view) didn’t quite fire on all cylinders.
I’ve also accepted that everybody’s tastes are different. Personally, I didn’t like the whole High Sparrow story line, I thought the Ramsay-Theon torture porn scenes went on far too long, and every scene with Euron was a waste of precious screen time. That’s just me though. I’m sure there are other viewers who enjoyed those aspects.
And although Arya and Sandor were my favorite characters, and just about every scene they were in was phenomenal, I for one wasn’t thrilled with Arya’s “big moment,” taking out the Night King. Similarly, while I found Arya & Sandor’s final scene together to be touching, I felt “Cleganebowl” was (to use the cliche term) pure fan service, did not comport with Sandor’s character evolution, and was an unfulfilling and inappropriate ending for Sandor Clegane.
Yet, I fully accept that for a large segment of the fandom, Arya ex machina at the end of S8e3 was a fist-pump moment, and Cleganebowl fulfilled a long-time desire for the two big guys to face off and fight to the death.
Hey Jack! Unless you were just trying to incite a spirited debate with your unqualified praise, this S8e6 scene is probably a good example of what I mean by viewers’ subjective perceptions.
You obviously thought it was an effective scene, and that Tyrion’s speech was br*****nt.
Mr. Derp felt that in his opinion, “the dragonpit meeting… was a complete disaster, went against everything GoT previously stood for, and made very little sense in the scheme of things.”
I’m afraid I have to concur with Mr. Derp. That scene made me cringe. I thought Tyrion’s speech was awful as written and as delivered. I winced listening to Peter Dinklage try to speak those words with conviction. Admittedly, my expectations were through the roof for the series finale. I was hoping to be blown away. I wasn’t. My “immersion” was destroyed when I was listening to Tyrion trying to impart profundity to the proposition that “stories” are the most powerful force, and then asserting that out of all people Bran had “the best” story.
Perhaps if the camera hadn’t cut away and the scene abruptly ended during S8e2 when Tyrion pulled up a chair and was about to listen to Bran’s story, Tyrion’s rah rah speech in S8e6 might have been more impactful. I don’t know.
However, there’s no right or wrong here. If you felt those in attendance were swayed by Tyrion’s speech, so be it. I was hoping for something really inspiring like Oberyn’s “I will be your champion” speech in S4e7, but maybe that speech didn’t resonate with you the way it did for me. And frankly, I would not expect Benioff and Weiss to be able to craft an emotionally evocative speech in the limited time they had versus the Big Kahuna, who has the luxury of taking as long as he wants to write and rewrite dialogue.
One question though – and I am NOT mocking you – why did you feel that “King Bran the Broken has the best story” and “that is what Westeros needs going forward”?
I’ve tried to go through various characters’ stories and how they’d best serve the interests of a more progressive, less divisive society. Compared to other candidates, I had difficulty articulating for Bran a more compelling story, and listing his qualifications as an acceptable, effective leader.
So how and why did Bran have “the best” story, in your view? I want to be persuaded.
About an Arya spinoff down the road: Isn’t it a simple matter of common sense and economics?
As long as they get competent, creative producers and halfway decent writers, it would be an instant cash cow for HBO, with a built-in audience ready to go. No need for excessive promotion and marketing.
A GoT sequel starring a fan favorite actress reprising her role as one of the most popular characters in the most successful TV series in history… It’s kind of a no-brainer.
Unless House of the Dragon is a runaway hit and becomes HBO’s new juggernaut, the GoT fandom is going to have a hankering for a return to the fictional world of GoT within a few years.
Maisie Williams will have had a well-deserved opportunity to unwind and recharge. It’d just be a matter of presenting quality scripts and backing in a Brink’s truck full of cash into her driveway to induce her to climb back on board. (A smart producer would also pledge, in writing, to match Maisie Williams’s salary dollar for dollar with donations to the charitable causes she’s championed.) A flexible filming schedule leaving her enough time to pursue film roles would be a good enticement as well.
Hell, if Patrick Stewart could be persuaded to return as Captain Picard in his own series 25 years after Star Trek: The Next Generation concluded its seven-year run in 1996. why not Maisie Williams as Arya five years from now?
“I’d pay good money to see that.”
S. Clegane
Regarding Dany I think you nailed it here. The way her story arc ended seems to be the biggest bone of contention within S8 and largely because of the following:
a) Many people saw her as the hero of the story clearly the books & show had built her up this way.
b) That said both mediums dropped significant breadcrumbs to suggest this is how it could play out so much so several posters here and elsewhere had predicted this.
c) The execution was done in a way that it felt more rushed, disjointed and done for shock value.
Alright, this thread flared up!
It was a good post and fun to read, thank you Marc.
I never thought of GoT as a soap, but I think you have a point.
The show is certainly worth rewatching for the in-world building, the detailed richness of it is unique and it will take many years before any show can match its supremacy, let alone exceed it.
And when (if ever) the book is completed, I think that fans will be able to apreciate it more.
I’m waiting for that moment to make better sense of the last three episodes of the entire series though.
Unless I see it written and well framed, nothing will ever convince me that Bran will be the ruler of the six kingdoms (just connecting to the discussion above), or that Tyrion walks free after so many crimes (outs that one hurt the most).
Meraxes,
I disagree with everything you just said. The signs for Dany were always there.
Ten Bears,
Maisie William’s said the only way she would ever return and it was a big if is if D&D were writing and in charge.
Maisie Williams said she would return if “they invent zips and not have leather costumes that are laced up”. It’s all Williams said she would need to return to the show. Cunningham asked if that’s all she would need and Maisie said yes.
Ten Bears,
I think the word “brilliant” would only lose its meaning if a poster applies it to many things, not just one. For instance, if Jack or Light King called every show they’ve ever watched brilliant, it wouldn’t really mean anything. After all, if everything is brilliant, nothing is. Since they’re only using it to describe Game of Thrones, brilliant is as good a word to use as any.
Picture this future scenario…
HBO Exec: “Here Ms. Williams. $6,000,000 cash up front for you, plus six cashier’s checks for $1,000,000 each payable to the Dolphin Project; WaterAid; National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children; Small Steps Project; Greenpeace; and Bristol Animal Rescue Centre.”*
Just sign on the dotted line and we’re good to go.”
MW: “Who’s the producer?
HBO Exec: “You are.”
MW: “Who are the writers?”
HBO Exec: “Anyone you want.”
MW: “Who will be the directors?”
HBO Exec: “Speak three names. A man will do the rest.”
*According to an article this morning she just donated £50,000 (roughly equal to $61,225 US dollars I think) to Bristol Animal Rescue Centre.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/game-thrones-actress-maisie-williams-4084114
I really do not believe the potential non-involvement of Benioff and Weiss would be a deal-breaker.
Ten Bears,
Maisie never said that about D&D anyway. Fireandblood87 made it up. Or perhaps was mistaken.
Maisie did say that she would have a hard time picturing a sequel/prequel/spin-off without D&D, but never said that she wouldn’t do it again without D&D. Her only stipulation was more comfortable clothing, lol. There never was any “big if” regarding D&D.
“I Miss Game of Thrones. But Why?”
Excellent essay. Here are my answers to your (rhetorical) question:
— Source material: a vast, intricate, and detailed fantasy world that looks much like a real world. Multiple intersecting character arcs to explore classic themes of power, justice, war, etc.
— Adaptation: removes most of the (few) magical elements in favor of grittier reality. There are no easy answers here. Main writers are already successful, published authors with Master’s Degrees in literature.
— Technology: HD format allows for “deep-focus” type cinematography and seamless integration of CGI for world-building and action sequences.
— Cinematography: gorgeous photography of both many large sets in Belfast, and carefully-scouted locations in Ireland, Malta, Croatia, and Spain.
— Lastly and most importantly: Cast & Crew: best in the business, especially in such huge numbers.
And, once the screen goes dark at the end of the episode, you’re back in your world of running water, refrigerated food, and constitutional democracy! 😉
I’m in the category of the ending made me indifferent to the rest of the series. I haven’t gone back and watched a single second of any of it since it ended. Not out of anger, just indifference. I wasn’t one demanding remakes of the final season, as their creatives choices are what they are. But what it resulted in was me not caring, total indifference to the story or having any desire to relive the story.
I may soften on this as they years go by, in fact I’m sure I will and I will go back and watch some of it. I can’t imagine ever watching season 8 again though. It was one of the more frustrating things I’ve ever witnessed in film or television.
I miss Game of Thrones because I love it. It’s one of my golden trio regarding my favorite TV shows and my highest rated show per individual episodes, I love the overly grand story, the enormous enseble cast of complex characters, amazing visuals and effects and Ramin Djawadi’s soundtrack. It’s the only TV show out there were I’m fully entertained by every single episode… where watching and rewatching every episode feels like a “big thing” and I would also say GoT has a really quality cast overall, considering almost all characters to the most side ones remained so memorable to me. I miss the thrill, the “feel-good vibe” and the emotions this TV show always induces me and I definitely look forward to rewatching it in near future and probably appreciating it and absorbing it even more deeply with repeated journeys (as it’s usually the case with my favorite TV shows). And with my girlfriend watching the show for first time at the moment and being completely in love with it (she’s 3 episodes into S6), I miss the show even more.
I miss Game of Thrones.
It hit me last week when I heard Pod (Daniel Portman) singing “Jenny’s song” (S8E2). The refain goes “She never wanted to leave… she never wanted to leave…”
I never wanted leave. For years, I’d lived in this world, and now it’s over (pending future books.)
What I miss most is the community. Us all speculating and discussing and joking and sharing memes and having a good time.
Sure, even now there are book-focussed communities – and I love the books, think them superior to the show. But I don’t hate/slate the show, so in some places my views aren’t welcome.
Marc’s other two points. Yes, GoT was a soap opera, so what? We enjoy the human drama, grisly at time as it might be, because we, as humans are interested in what other humans would do, and do and did in various, even extreme circumstances.
GRRM said he’s interested in writing about the human heart in conflict with itself. Human drama. It was one of the strenghts of GoT to be so character-driven – sometimes to the detriment of plot, logic etc.
Also because the producers had assembled an amazing, multi-national cast. The actors lived through the ASoIaF for us. They all did such an excellent job. And not just the big stars, main role players. Think of Pyp. From a side note to Jon’s friend who dies at the Battle for the Wall (S4E9, I think).
So that expains the “soap opera”, or character-driven drama.
The first point Marc makes is, how REAL the tv show made all these places in Westeros and Essos. Huge thanks goes to Deborah Riley (sets) and Michelle Clapton (costumes), who made it all feel real.
Thanks to their talent and work, we could just transport ourselves, even immerse ourselves, in this ASoIaF world. Lose ourselves in this world. They made it look so real, a real world we could lose ourselves in. Marc said it first, I concur.
Whatever you think of the writing and the ending, you must see that this tv-series is a benchmark for future excellence in tv, and even film-making.
As a tv-show, GoT is without peer.
Lots of book-fans decry the tv-show. It’s not like the books! Well, for one thing, the books aren’t there.
I’m a book fan. We’ve got, and reread 5/7 of the books… Well, I think it might be more like book 6/8 or 6/9, or 6/10 or whatever, in their good time. Judging by GRRM’s gardening, and slow style of writing, TWoW might get out in 2022, the rest 15 years apart. Except GRRM is now in his mid-70s, so will he live long enough to write all this shit? Or will I live long enough to read it? haha. (That was a hollow, mirthless laugh.)
…why did you feel that “King Bran the Broken has the best story” and “that is what Westeros needs going forward”?
I regarded that as a rhetorical trick — one that Tyrion himself doesn’t really respect, but it’s all he’s got on short notice — to get the other Great Lords & Ladies of Westeros to accept quickly the only real solution they have. They don’t have time for a leisurely debate, because the Unsullied and Dothraki want Jon dead, and the Northern Army won’t let that happen without a fight.
Lucifer means Lightbringer (LmL) has a series of YouTube vids explaining Bran the King. The Summer King. They help make sense of the TV show’s ending.
So… though… I never understood why the Unsullied and the Dothraki never kicked up shit. After Jon apparently killed their messiah (Dothraki), their “mysha” (Unsullied).
Because the foucus was on the western, Westerosi, world. A man of an old, entitled noble Westerosi family explained it all away, and apparently the Dothraki were OK with their religious messiah – who led them across the poison water etc. – getting killed, and just nicely got on the ships provided for them to go away and not complicate the show-writers’ job.
The Unsullied similarly just went away (to Naath, apparently, to die of butterfly sickness). OK, Grey Worm tried to get some justice for his liberator, his Queen, but he was against the Westerosi establishment. They circled wagons and defended their way of life. Probably congratulated themselves when the Unsullied problem sailed to Naath. And the Dothraki screamers nicely and docilely boarded ships to sail away to not be problems to the screenwriters.
All that said, warts and all, I really liked the TV show. I miss it.
talvikorppi,
That Lucifer guy is constantly calling the showrunners hacks. Engages with the dragon demands who is a lunatic. They both say some extremely vile things about the showrunners. The show also doesn’t have the butterfly sickness ever mentioned.
Ten Bears,
Mr Derp,
I did not make it up. Saying she couldn’t see doing anything without them is basically saying she would want them involved. I get it D&D are the devils to lots of GOT fans apparently the worst writers ever. I didn’t make anything up though.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
“…And with my girlfriend watching the show for first time at the moment and being completely in love with it (she’s 3 episodes into S6), I miss the show even more.”
My lord! I sure hope you’re going to be there to comfort your gf when she reaches the last fifteen minutes of S6e5. Jeez, that segment went from a pleasant visit to Past Winterfell into a crazy time loop clusterf*ck, until the frenetic ending left one (me) shellshocked.
Nice job Bran. RIP Hodor. RIP 3ER 1.0. RIP Leaf. RIP Summer.
No one here is saying that D&D are the devils. You seem to have a bit of an unhealthy persecution complex when it comes to D&D.
This is what you said word-for-word: Maisie Williams said the only way she would ever return and it was a big if is if D&D were writing and in charge.
This is what was actually said at the San Diego Comic-Con when asked if she’d be interested in doing more Thrones: “If they invent zips and not have leather costumes that are laced up, that would be cool,” said Williams, to which Cunningham asked, “That’s all you would need?” Her simple response: “Yeah.”
This is what she said about D&D: ”I can hand-over-my-heart say that I don’t think there’s going to be a spin-off, the show was only what it was because of David and Dan, the show’s creators.
”They brought me into this world and it would be strange to do something without them. But I do think playing Arya again would be wonderful. I miss her a lot. I think the show needs to stew for a little bit, but there maybe ways down the road?”’
No doubt she would like D&D involved, but that’s very different than what you said. You twisted her words around.
Mistakes happen. It’s fine. We all make them. Just own up to it instead of doubling down.
talvikorppi,
”…. The actors lived through the ASoIaF for us. They all did such an excellent job. And not just the big stars, main role players.”
Allow me to give a shout out to a few other really great actresses and actors who played brief but memorable supporting roles, including
• Birgitte Hjort Sorensen as Karsi.
• Burn Gorman as Karl “the fooking legend of Gin Alley” Tanner.
• Noah Taylor as Locke.
• Jim Broadbent as Maester Ebrose. [Big name, A-List actor who disappeared into his role]
• Essie Davis as Lady Crane.
Ten Bears,
Don’t forget Kinvara! She was great. I was hoping to see more of her.
I am not challenging you. I just do not recall Maisie Williams ever saying that she couldn’t see doing anything [i.e., a spinoff] without Benioff and Weiss being involved.
Do you have a link or a reference?
I do recall watching the interview Mr. Derp cited, in which Maisie, in an exchange with Liam Cunningham, said she’d be up for it so long as she could have more comfortable costumes.
The only other reservation I’m aware of came right after the end of filming, when MW said she was looking forward to some free time to enjoy life and do whatever she wanted, without jumping right into another commitment.
…just nicely got on the ships provided for them to go away and not complicate the show-writers’ job.
OK, that got a smile and a laugh. Well played, sir!
Seriously, Jorah explained to Dany how the Dothraki follow strong leaders. Once her final dragon was gone and she was dead, she was no longer a strong leader, so they were free to go wherever they wanted. Westeros lacks wide-open spaces full of easy victims, so they departed. (They may well have had rather, um, spirited disagreements over details, but those were not important to the story, so we saw nothing.)
The Unsullied likewise had no master to follow, so they left an alien land for new horizons, after Grey Worm spurned Ser Davos’ offer of becoming landed gentry in southern Westeros.
Grey Worm tried to get some justice for his liberator, his Queen, but he was against the Westerosi establishment. They circled wagons and defended their way of life.
A guy whose hands were still smeared with the blood of defenseless, surrendered prisoners tries ‘to get some justice’? That may well be the most Game of Thrones idea on this entire thread! Again, well-played, sir!
A man of an old, entitled noble Westerosi family explained it all away…
If entitled white guys can’t get their way on Westeros, where can they? 😉
Ackkkkk!!!! You’re right!
Ania Bukstein was exotic, mysterious and spooky as Kinvara! I had really been looking forward to seeing her again, and was disappointed when she did not return.
I also should have mentioned Rila Fukushima, the Volantis street priestess who unnerved Tyrion.
Mr Derp,
(You quoted MW): ”They [Benioff and Weiss] brought me into this world and it would be strange to do something without them. But I do think playing Arya again would be wonderful. I miss her a lot. I think the show needs to stew for a little bit, but there maybe ways down the road?”
That’s good enough for me! She left the door open just enough for that Brink’s truck to drive through.
Speaking of continuations, what are some of your ideas for a potential sequel to GoT?
From S6 onward, they kept bringing up Volantis, even when they could have brought up any other city. Melisandre traveled there after her part in S7, having “brought Ice and Fire together.” The Faith of R’hllor certainly believe there is something special about Dany, and apparently Melisandre alone discovered there was also something special about Jon, especially after she succeeded in bringing him back. Maybe she went to Volantis to inform Kinvara that Dany was only a part of the divine puzzle, that this Jon person was important too.
Both Jon and Dany were slain by treacherous knives in the heart. I explained in an earlier thread how Kinvara could potentially resurrect Dany in Volantis, which Drogon was last seen flying toward. D&D confirmed Samwell was saying “Volantis”; if Drogon was really flying to Valyria, why would they fake us out with Volantis and later confirm Volantis?
We could also see how Sansa’s doing being the Queen in the North, how a woman’s managing to rule all of those proud, stubborn Northern lords.
Also, how Bran’s doing being the Ruler of the Six Kingdoms, which should be pretty interesting, considering the fragile peace that took hold in the wake of his election, along with his Small Council of merry misfits.
Maybe Arya may find something interesting beyond the Sunset Sea (like she just sails around the world and visits Asshai, which would be fucking awesome to see).
Jon could be dividing his time between the Wall and beyond, helping Tormund and the wildlings reestablish themselves. Maybe at some point, he’ll venture into the FAR north, where winter still holds sway, and discover the intact ruins of the White Walkers’ ancestral stronghold and base-of-operations. Maybe the White Walkers have only been temporarily vanquished by Arya essentially slaying the “avatar” of the Great Other, and they could potentially return, stronger than ever. EDIT: So Jon has that to worry about, and then one day he receives word that Dany has been resurrected, so he’s like “Aw shit, here we go again”.
I think the possibilities are endless.
Farimer123,
“All Men Must Dine” – cooking show with Hot Pie-and-Friends that takes place at the Inn.
That was an idea of mine until a restaurant in London called “All Men Must Dine” actually opened! Oh well.
Perhaps a show called “The Crossroads Inn” or “The Inn at the Crossroads” where we get to see the shenanigans of Hot Pie and guests every week.
“The Rich Housewives of Westeros
Farimer123,
“All Men Must Dine” – cooking show with Hot Pie-and-Friends that takes place at the Inn.
That was an idea of mine until a restaurant in London called “All Men Must Dine” actually opened! Oh well.
Perhaps a show called “The Crossroads Inn” or “The Inn at the Crossroads” where we get to see the shenanigans of Hot Pie and guests every week.
“The Rich Housewives of Westeros”
Hmm, I’ll have to think on this.
“All Men Must Dine” – cooking show with Hot Pie-and-Friends that takes place at the Inn.
That was an idea of mine until a restaurant in London called “All Men Must Dine” actually opened! Oh well.
Perhaps a show called “The Crossroads Inn” or “The Inn at the Crossroads” where we get to see the shenanigans of Hot Pie and guests every week.
“The Rich Housewives of Westeros”
Hmm, Ill have to think more on this when I have a chance.
I accidentally posted this a few times with a typo in my name, so they’re probably in moderation.
Farimer123,
Daenerys gets resurrected and flies back to westeros to burn the whole continent so that everyone can cry again that it makes no sense and that we need another two seasons to justify it. In the end Drogon eats Jon and Ghost 😀
I will definitely be there for her, even if not physically as we live in different countries. But I did get the chance to watch a couple GoT episodes together with her during my last couple visits, including the one where Joffrey dies.
Farimer123,
These are all interesting ideas for a sequel. However, as a practical matter, the actors who played those characters (e.g. Melisandre, Jon and Sansa) might not be available – or willing – to reprise their roles.
Casting unfamiliar faces for those well-known characters might not sit well with the fandom.
However, as for your suggestion that “Kinvara could potentially resurrect Dany in Volantis, which Drogon was last seen flying toward,” I’d totally be on board with a sequel starring Ania Bukstein as Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara. GoT left a lot of unanswered questions about the Lord of Light, his disciples, and their powers.
As the old show biz adage goes: “Always leave ‘em wanting more.” GoT accomplished that with Kinvara and her crew.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Well, Skype, Face Time, or even a comforting voice on the other end of the telephone should suffice.
Let me suggest that as traumatic as Ned’s beheading and the Red Wedding were, many devoted fans had a head’s up something was coming from book readers’ online commentaries. As far as I know, the Hodor reveal took everyone by surprise.
It was all the more shocking (for me at least) because Hodor had been portrayed as a big lovable teddy bear – the kind of character usually reserved for comic relief, not horror and tragedy.
I was left stunned at the end of “The Door.” Jack Bender and the editors did an amazing job with the pacing of that final sequence, the back-and-forth between present and past, and the final harrowing image of poor flailing Wyllis on the ground as the screen faded to black.
I wish I had someone to grieve with or comfort me after that episode….
Ten Bears,
Well, Melisandre is kinda dead as fuck. But all the actors seem to look back on their experience very fondly, and they got paid a truck-load of money playing those roles. Having D&D back as the showrunners (perhaps with GRRM in the background giving them some outlines for potential story threads) would be the surest way to get them back on board, but it doesn’t 100% HAVE to be D&D, just someone who can fill their shoes, turn in quality writing, hire all the right people, and otherwise manage the absolutely mammoth production that such a sequel would entail.
Farimer123,
The most logical spinoff:
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/494/628/0df.jpg
——-
Ten Bears,
What’s west of Westeros? In all likelihood… probably just Asshai.
Farimer123,
Just ask Bran what’s out there. He can save everyone the trouble and play spoiler.
Farimer123,
My suggest for a sequel: “In search of the honeycomb and the jackass”.
With his falcon on the shoulder, Robin Arryn wanders around Westeros to live the story he almost heard from Tyrion.
On a more serious note, I can’t remember anything at the moment, apart from Arya.
I am among those who thought the scene fell flat and didn’t work (at least with me). It failed to touch me or enthrall me. But at the same time, I don’t find it absurd, on two aspects. First, this kind of 4th wall breaking by commenting on the fiction process (stores) really reminds me of the way several plays by Shakespeare end, so it makes sense in this very shakespearian show. Second, I understand what Tyrion means as: Bran was hurt and broken but not crushed and went his way… up to the throne, if we choose him; Westeros was hurt and broken, it can identify with Bran’s story to reconstruct : that’s what makes it ‘the best story’, at this point, for the realm, it just needs a good media campaign.
Unrelated: I woke up thinking that the scene in the House of the Undying (throne room vs Drogo and son) represented ruling (throne) vs conquering (Khal, burning the stone houses, mounting the world,…). Obviously, I miss GOT too😉
Picturing Cersei as one of those housewives…. Yes, immediate favourite.
I rewatched S8 towards the end of last year and enjoyed it significantly more I have to say in hindsight part of my mild disappointment was simply over expectation. Curiously though despite getting the S8 blu-ray as an Xmas present I have not gone back for a full series re-watch even with the pandemic going on and I cannot put my finger on why.
Neither have I, and I know exactly why!
I now own a blu-ray player, which I didn’t before. I still haven’t bought the blu-ray of S8 though, because I can’t decide whether to splash out on buying the whole series on blu-ray, replacing the DVDs that I already own.
Since we’re bringing it all up again ….
My only disappointment with the way the story ended was that a lot seemed to be left out. I don’t mean loose ends (although there were some) but the way we were taken straight from the Daenerys death scene to the conference. We should have been shown what happened immediately after Drogon flew away, how Jon explained himself and the various reactions. That’s the main omission, and I felt that the episode should have ended with the Daenerys death scene. Showing the immediate aftermath in a final seventh episode would have led us into a more satisfying conclusion with fewer unanswered questions.
There were other small linking scenes that I wanted to see, and I still don’t understand why they didn’t make time for them. Just conversation scenes, so none of it would have been elaborate or expensive.
None of this would have appeased those who just didn’t like the outcome of the story, but it would have satisfied many other critics. I think D&D were probably too burned out to make it to the end, but afraid to let anyone else in. GRRM left them too much to do.
As it should be.
Grandmaester Flash,
”…There were other small linking scenes that I wanted to see, and I still don’t understand why they didn’t make time for them. Just conversation scenes, so none of it would have been elaborate or expensive.”
That’s what I don’t get. For example, I (most of us) wanted to see Sansa and Arya’s reaction to the reveal of Jon’s parentage but that scene abruptly ended.
Yet, lots of screen time (in S6e8) was spent showing Tyrion walking around grimacing and saying nothing, and Jon walking around and saying nothing.
I still love the show! No need for the Brilliant Brigade to come out to controvert this comment.
Ten Bears,
We had literally seen the R+L=J reveal explained three times in the last four episodes:
1. Bran telling Samwell and those two further unveiling it
2. Samwell telling Jon, whose had a dramatic stake in the circumstances of his birth for the entire series
3. Jon telling Dany, whose had a dramatic stake in her “claim” to the Iron Throne for the entire series
Did we really need to see Jon or Bran explain it a fourth time? And to his sisters, who were really just bystanders in this whole thing? The answer is no, because it would’ve been redundant as hell. We kinda got to see Sansa’s reaction later by way of her conversation with Tyrion, and then Tyrion’s reaction by way of his conversation with Varys.
The crucial point of the scene with Jon and the Stark children in the godswood was his choice to tell them at all. We didn’t need to see yet more people gasp in shock. We had already established that it probably wasn’t going to change the nature of their relationships – Jon was really just as much Ned’s child as any of them and their brother, no matter what.
Farimer123,
I beg to differ (rather slightly). Daenerys’ gasp wasnt’t the only thing that should be on screen.
The entire story is built around the events that surround the circumstances of Jon’s birth.
Daenerys’ life was built on a lie.
Jon’s life was built on a lie.
His siblings’ lives were immediately affected and in a sense they were deceived too.
The Northmen’s lives were immediately affected.
We didn’t see anything that had to do with the reputation of Ned -apart from Jon’s scene in the crypts, but Jon wasn’t the only one who cared about Ned’s lie.
The Northmen elected a king based on false assumptions. Obviously in the end none of that really mattered.
Of course the producers built the story the way they wanted. It wasn’t a story about the Starks, it was a story about Daenerys. Retrospectively this is true not only about season 8, but about season 7 too.
But the thing is, it didn’t start this way, therefore it disappointed the Stark fans and they have every right to be this much disappointed.
I’ve tried to avoid getting in on this season 8 discussion but I wanted to express agreement with this part of Efi’s post. This is why I’d quibble with calling Jon’s family “bystanders” in this. They lived their whole lives believing their father cheated on their mother and had a bastard son, who grew up alongside them at Winterfell. That shaped a lot growing up in Winterfell — it impacted Catelyn, Ned, Jon, and the Stark children significantly. I think it’s reasonable to want to see Sansa and Arya’s reactions to the truth since this would really personally affect them, even if it doesn’t change how Sansa and Arya feel about Jon.
For my part, I wanted to see that explored. I can totally understand that you didn’t need to see their reactions, Farimer, and felt this would be redundant but I think others have good reasons for wanting to see Sansa and Arya learn the truth as well.
Too late. You got pulled over by the Brilliant Brigade, lol.
Just comply or they’ll shoot you and then plant a twitter account on your body with mean nasty things said about D&D.
“See look? I told you he hated season 8! He’s a hater!”
Adrianacandle,
How do you bold words?
Okay I have a question for you: without referring to the books, can you find me just one scene in all of GOT before 8×4 with Sansa and/or Arya where Jon’s status as a bastard and Ned’s status as a cheater was even remotely important? Where there was any indication that either of them gave a crap at all?
Efi,
From start to finish, GOT was a story with three entities at its core: the Wolf, the Lion, and the Dragon. The Lion and the Dragon were approximately equal in importance all things considered, but the wolf was always at the forefront, the very heart of the story, and I do not believe S7 & 8 altered that dynamic in any significant way.
Farimer123,
Have you ever used HTML? Some HTML tags work when you are writing out your comments 🙂 word will bold a word! (But remove the spaces!) You can do the same for italics: word (Again, remove the spaces!)
Well, Jon’s bastardy is a big reason why Sansa didn’t regard Jon the same as her other siblings. It’s also one of the reasons why Jon was so close with Arya per their first scene together — because neither seemed to fit. And both Sansa and Jon believe Jon to be their bastard half-brother, even if both have come to regard Jon as their brother-brother now (especially Sansa).
In reference to scenes, the reunion scene with Sansa and Jon where Sansa apologizes for being awful to him as a kid, for instance. Sansa mentioning Jon doesn’t have the Stark name, which causes a moment of tension between herself and Jon. Sansa’s scenes with Littlefinger in which Littlefinger harps on the fact that Jon is her half-brother and a bastard son (not a trueborn daughter like Sansa). D&D using this to tease conflict between them when Jon is elected King in the North instead of Sansa, despite Sansa being trueborn. And both Arya and Sansa believe their father to have always been honest, the most honorable man in Westeros (as the whole country believed). And Ned was this, for the most part, but this was a huge thing Ned had to lie about.
Sadly, in the show, we only got one scene of Jon and Arya before season 8. Two scenes focused on them before Jon tells them the truth.
(I’m not saying Sansa was trying at all to be mean to Jon or that it was her fault, she was behaving how she thought she should be behaving. My only point is that Jon’s bastardry did have an impact on their relationship growing up and is a cause for some of that tension).
These people are Jon’s family, the first significant people in his life and they believed things about their family and their brother that weren’t true. It impacts them and how they view their parents.
I would have liked to seen that reaction.
Farimer123,
Crap, my trying to show the codes for bolded wording didn’t work 🙁 Go here to find the codes! 🙂
Farimer123,
”We had literally seen the R+L=J reveal explained three times in the last four episodes.”
• Why “literally”? How does someone see something literally?
• The point was that the omission of the siblings’ reaction to the long-awaited reveal was disappointing to many viewers. Also conspicuously absent any self-reflection by Jon “I’m a bastard, I’m a bastard” Snow about his trueborn status; the effect of learning about the identity of his mother and that she did care about him; the sacrifices and deceptions (lies of necessity) by his de facto father, the honorable Ned Stark; or any curiosity about his biological father.
• Yes, we had already “seen” the R+L = J reveal. However, the characters in-universe had not.
• Most important was that throughout the entire eight season run, the show itself made Jon’s true parentage a BFD (big f*cking deal). It impacted just about every other character in Jon’s orbit. His apparent illegitimacy and supposed identity as “Ned Stark’s bastard” was commented on repeatedly and at length by just about everyone, including Tyrion, Catelyn, FecalFlinger, Stannis, Melisandre, Davos, Ygritte, Sansa, Arya, Samwell, and Jon himself. (The “official” story that scoundrel Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark, and the irreconcilable, actual truth that noble Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other and eloped, were also repeatedly dredged up by, inter alia, Robert, LF, and Sansa on one hand, and by Jorah, Barristan, Gilly, Sam, and Bran on the other.)
With so much screentime and narrative significance devoted to Jon’s parentage and its consequences on the characters’ backstories (even in that show-only Robert & Cersei discussion about Lyanna’s ghost haunting their marriage), and the unfolding present-day events in the show, to simply omit the ramifications of the big reveal was emotionally frustrating.
Why spend so much time setting up this big secret if it was only going to be dropped like a hot potato – or simply used as just one of many contrived setbacks to drive Dany crazy?
EDIT: Before pressing “Post Comment,” I noticed that other commenters have already beaten me to the punch. Sorry about any redundancy.
Efi,
”The entire story is built around the events that surround the circumstances of Jon’s birth.
Daenerys’ life was built on a lie.
Jon’s life was built on a lie.
His siblings’ lives were immediately affected and in a sense they were deceived too.
The Northmen’s lives were immediately affected….”
✅ Right! That too.
If I have any further thoughts on season 8 I’ll probably confine them to the forums (for a?) unless I’m addressing a specific point. Firstly, I wanted to say that in my YouTube recommendations I received mention of a Globe Theatre (London) production of ‘Romeo and Juliet’ from 2009 which is free to view at present. I haven’t watched it yet so can’t attest as to its quality but I intend to try it. Juliet is played by Ellie Kendrick (Meera). https://youtu.be/eSAlPJ0FG_0 It’s long – getting on for 3 hours.
I have a lay person’s interest in history and some storylines in GoT reminded me of historic events (not necessarily medieval). The controversial burning of Kings Landing made me think of a film I saw many years ago “Assault on East Prussia” – it was a compendium of newsreel films taken at the time of the collapse of East Prussia including the bombing of Konigsberg (now Kaliningrad, Russian Oblast) followed by the expulsion of the former German East Prussians when the province changed from belonging to Germany to belonging to other countries. The desolation of Kings Landing made me think of the pictures of post-bombing Konigsberg. I found “Assault on East Prussia” on YouTube and rewatched it.
I knew someone who was reading GoT back in 2013 (post-‘Merlin’ [BBC] which I liked for all its plot holes). I couldn’t find the book in the library so I binge-watched the first two seasons of the programme and was hooked. I didn’t expect to be – grimdark fantasy isn’t usually my kind of thing but I found I wanted to know what happened to the characters next….I was ‘spoiled’ about Ned’s fate and started off hating Jaime. I know I’ve sometimes said GRRM is not wholly above criticism (in my view at least) but he managed to make me go from being indifferent about Theon, to hating him and then coming to pity him when he was under Ramsay’s control. I couldn’t imagine coming to have at least an improved opinion of Jaime in later seasons when I was watching seasons 1 and 2 either.
Adrianacandle,
✅
Farimer123,
About bolding words: If nobody else has replied to your question – I’ll scroll down to look – I’ll fill you in on how I do it “manually” by inserting codes…
Ten Bears,
Farimer123,
I think Ten Bears’ answer is probably the better one since Ten Bears is a pre-books fan and can offer that POV of why a pre-books fan would want to see Sansa and Arya’s reactions.
I was reflecting that maybe I’m not the best person to ask because as far as this aspect goes (the history of the characters and their time at Winterfell), the books and show are entangled for me in that way :/
It was like when I was watching HDM, the television series. The universe for me made sense because I had read the books so I couldn’t see any gaps in logic. However, some viewers who only watched the show were confused about some things without that extra info. They could see the holes in logic, plot, and character where I couldn’t.
Sorry, I’m not sure if I made it clear but when I mentioned the fall of East Prussia it was because Kings Landing’s devastation sent me off on a tangent concerning the devastation of real-world cities in the past.
Yea, this site used to have buttons where you could click on such as “Bold”, “Italics”, “Quotes”, etc…but those features seem to have been done away with.
Ten Bears,
I don’t think it was contrived at all.
Adrianacandle,
I just re-watched the whole Jon-Sansa reunion scene, and there’s never any point in their conversation where Sansa mentions Jon not having the Stark name. Perhaps what you’re referring to exists in another scene – or it doesn’t exist?
Sibling relations are highly variable. Sometimes, their personalities mesh well, and other times they don’t. Just like Jon’s personality meshed well with Arya’s, it didn’t mesh with Sansa’s. Any “awful” treatment that Jon ever received from Sansa almost certainly didn’t have anything to do with Jon’s bastardy – I don’t see Ned ever allowing that or standing for it. Only Catelyn ever gave Jon grief, and it visibly pained Ned to even allow that. Must have taken everything he had to not tell her.
And about Sansa’s conversation with Littlefinger, it was he who mentioned Jon’s bastardy, and in response, Sansa merely considered it for a second, then all-but rolled her eyes and kept walking away while tender triumphant Stark music played in the background. When Jon was crowned, Sansa looked genuinely happy for him – not jealous at all. Later, she encouraged him as a ruler and gave him the best advice she should muster, then did everything in her power to keep him from leaving Winterfell because she didn’t want Jon to die in the South as Ned and Robb did. Does any of that sound like she was jealous of Jon being King because SHE was the last trueborn? Again, any tension between Jon and Sansa as the rulers of Winterfell had everything to do with their policies and decisions, and nothing to do with Jon’s bastardy – Sansa is not that petty.
you just metioned Monty Python? here’s my advice: read all posts by “Thanks-for-the-brrrr-job” and “They-did-such-a-brrrr-job” like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrcbCW4y9Dw
i mean, read it loud!
and yes, the Arya sails to Braavos scene was a highlight. but the score… well, this was when useless bombast took a grip on an otherwise magnificient score. i think i was uncomfortable with almost any choir arrangement from then on. a question of taste. my taste favors few notes nailing it straight, like e.g. the late Gregor Clegane theme.
Adrianacandle,
Farimar asked: “Okay I have a question for you: without referring to the books, can you find me just one scene in all of GOT before 8×4 with Sansa and/or Arya where Jon’s status as a bastard and Ned’s status as a cheater was even remotely important? Where there was any indication that either of them gave a crap at all?
To supplement your reply:
• Catelyn’s lengthy soliloquy to Talisa about how she despised Baby Jon and wanted him gone; and how she broke her promise to the gods to love him after he got sick, and blamed herself for all the horrors that befell her family all because she “couldn’t love a motherless child.”
• Prisoner Jamie trying to piss off Catelyn by bringing up how Ned had cheated on her, and asked her how she felt when the “honorable” Ned Stark had brought home a bastard he’d fathered with another woman.
• Embittered Jon outside great hall feast in S1e1; excluded from Stark family table – which he also recalled in his conversation with Melisandre in S7e1 (?) when they were in great hall.
• (S1e1?) Tyrion calling Jon “bastard,” then advising Jon to “wear it like armor.”
• Stannis, with Selyse (S5), pondering Jon’s parentage and noting that impregnating a tavern slut “was not Ned Stark’s way.”
• Jon insisting he could not grant Stannis’s request to “give him the North” because even if he wanted to he was “just a bastard” (before turning down Stannis’s offer to legitimize him as “Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell”: one of my favorite scenes!)
• Robert, with Small Council, vowing to exterminate any dragonspawn.
• Arya, playing Game of Faces with the Waif in S6, reciting the names of “Arya Stark’s” siblings including brother Jon … (thwack!) … half-brother Jon. [Plus, Arya in S4e1 (my brother gave me that sword!”) and Sandor in S4e7 (“You say your brother gave you that sword? My brother gave me this…”)]
• Jon in S4e10 introducing himself to Stannis: his father was Ned Stark. Melisandre, in S5, introducing Jon as “The Bastard of Winterfell.” Ygritte reminding Lord of Bones that Jon was Ned Stark’s bastard, and Mance would want him alive. (For that matter, upon their very first meeting when Jon hesitated to behead Ygritte, she implored him: “Do it, bastard!”)
• Sansa to LF in S5 recounting the “kidnap and rape” story.
• LF to Jon in crypts in S7e2 trying to suck up to Jon (or push his buttons) by bringing up how Carelyn underestimated him now that he was KitN.
• Ramsay, in parlay before BoB, calling out Jon as a bastard.
• Jon confiding in Sam that he’d once been alone with a beautiful whore but couldn’t bring himself
to f*ck her because he hated being a bastard and was afraid he’d father a bastard himself. Or something like that.
• Janos Slynt bashing LC Jon as “a bastard boy” when disobeying his order – right before Slynt lost his head. 🙃
• There have got to be many more scenes referring to Jon’s status as a bastard or Ned’s status as a cheater. These are just a few examples off the top of my head.
Ten Bears,
Here’s Catelyn – Talisa in S3e2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zF2znBOs7w
—-
I’ve got to apologize to you. I just wasted my time listing examples of scenes in which Jon’s illegitimacy or Ned’s infidelity was discussed.
I now realize your question was limited to such scenes “with Sansa and/or Arya.”
There were a few such specific scenes included in my prior reply. There may have been more.
Are you talking about the KITN crowning scene where Sansa gives Littlefinger a concerned look at the end?
That scene has been interpreted in different ways, but D&D said on the Inside the Episode that Sansa doesn’t fully trust Jon. “There is definitely a hint of conflict there.” “There is a little bit of jealousy”.
Ten Bears,
A scene before 8×4… WITH SANSA AND/OR ARYA. None of those tidbits you mentioned refute my point: Neither Arya or Sansa cared even a tiny bit about Jon’s status. It was not important to them at all. As far as they were ever concerned, he was their brother, cut and dry.
EDIT: Oh my God I did it! YEEEEAH!
I think there may be icons or buttons with symbols or icons for underlining, bolding, etc. I do not use those, and from other commenters it seems the “menu” for those symbols or icons doesn’t always appear at the top of the Comment text box (or wherever it’s supposed to be).
Anyway, here’s how I bold text manually: It’s similar to the way you’d insert commands for spoiler coding text. ….
(Sh*t! Gotta take a phone call. I’ll finish this in a few minutes. Sorry. 12:14 pm)
Adrianacandle,
Oh okay, I just found the scene. It wasn’t the reunion; it was when they were standing on the ramparts together after having retaken Winterfell. Jon says “I’m not a Stark,” and Sansa replies with “You are to me.” She seems very sincere there, no sarcasm or false kindness, just pure unadulterated honesty: Your bastard status is of no matter to me.
Farimer123,
I’m sorry I wasn’t clear — I was referring to the Northern tour planning session in 6×05. Davos mentions that Jon doesn’t have the Stark name and Sansa agrees, “No, but I do,” and this causes a bit of a beat of tense silence between Jon and Sansa. At this point, Sansa quickly says, “Jon is every bit as much Ned Stark’s son as Ramsay is Roose Bolton’s.” (And I appreciate the effort on Sansa’s part but Ramsay isn’t exactly trueborn either).
And I think D&D were referencing the books here in which Sansa did differentiate Jon from the rest of her siblings because of his bastardy — which I’m not blaming Sansa for, this was behavior that she was taught. And this is something Jon felt. I don’t think Sansa treated Jon awful in the books but they had tension in their relationship because, as Jon remembered, Sansa would only ever refer to Jon as her half-brother. And Sansa did look down on Jon for his illegitimacy, at least in the books.
I had a bit of a different read of that coronation scene in that Sansa was a bit surprised and not entirely happy. Per D&D, conflict was being teased between them and I remember a quote from D&D mentioning Jon’s bastardy vs Sansa’s trueborn status (which I’ve been looking for the source for the past hour, it was said in a video, in a documentary of season 6. However, I can’t yet find it so you can count this quote as unsourced at present — I’ll keep looking. Maybe the title will come to me).
I’m not saying Sansa is being petty but she was raised in a classist society which devalued bastards and other misfits, viewed them as untrustworthy and less than. I’m not saying it’s Sansa’s fault either — she was following her mother’s lead and as a young girl, was subject to the customs and beliefs of Westeros. And I think this is part of her character development as well, overcoming preconceived notions.
Oh, Sansa is completely sincere and genuine when she tells Jon that, 100%! And I think the significance of that line is because this is something that used to matter to Sansa — but that’s based on my knowledge of the character histories in the books, which the show doesn’t really go into. They only really imply it.
Yes, Sansa totally sees Jon as her full brother now but his being raised as her bastard half-brother and her mother’s attitude toward Jon did impact Sansa (which is more emphasized in the books and only really very slightly touched on in the show in regard to how Sansa viewed Jon’s illegitimacy). As I said, it’s absolutely fine if you felt seeing Sansa and Arya’s reactions would be redundant. Others, including myself, wanted to see this. And I think that’s fine too.
I haven’t seen the formatting buttons for a while which is why I’m putting titles in either single or double quotes. That said, this laptop runs very slowly – I dropped it too which hasn’t helped. I have a manky screen but I’m loathe to tinker with it in case I make it even worse. I can just about get by with it at present.
Off topic I see that Jill Gascoine, Alfred Molina’s wife has died. I don’t know what the cause of death was but apparently she’d been ill for some considerable time. I remember in the 1980s as a high-ranking policewoman in ‘The Gentle Touch’ – before many visitors to this board were born.
Dame of Mercia,
Re: formatting. For anybody who’d find it helpful, I’ll make an image showing some of the coding I use to format my comments (for bold, italics, links, and quoting people’s posts) since when I try to type it out here (even with spaces), the code is executed 🙁
For anybody looking for some code to format comments, I made this image displaying the codes (I use)!
https://imgur.com/510jaGs
Ten Bears,
I’ve never seen that interview before so I need to thank you. I loved his take on Tywin. He was exactly how I pictured him.
CD is right, Maisie/ Arya is a wonderful girl and I would watch the hell out of an Arya spin-off with Maisie.
Dame of Mercia,
I think they were inspired by Berlin and/or Frankfurt.
I have a postcard from Berlin, showing in its first half the city destroyed and the new, modern city in the other half. It was shocking, and when I bought it my friend asked me why did I choose to buy that one of all poscards. I answered that I wanted to remember what war does. [not because I’m a freak, but because I’m a historian]
Any Shakespeare story is three hours long, lol. [otherwise it doesn’t respect itself] Thanks for the link!
Adrianacandle,
“At this point, Sansa quickly says, “Jon is every bit as much Ned Stark’s son as Ramsay is Roose Bolton’s.” (And I appreciate the effort on Sansa’s part but Ramsay isn’t exactly trueborn either).”
I think that’s exactly the point. She means that they are equal, so Ramsay has no reason to think of himself as “better” at all or has no reason to get more support than they do.
In other words, Ramsay is no Stark, but Jon is, and Sansa the trueborn is with him. That’s how I understood the line. [I struggled with it for a bit though].
talvikorppi,
You’ve said this far better than I could. I feel the same way.
GM is only a few years older than I am. He is not allowed to die before I have had the chance to read the last books dammit!
Adrianacandle,
Sansa on the other hand never addressed Jon as a bastard to his face, but she did “comply” with that rule when he was not around and she thinks of him like that (very rarely). But this was far better than any of the rest did. Robb called him a bastard to his face, and Bran even thinks of him as a bastard. At least Sansa is more polite (book wise). Not that we have any interactions between Jon and Sansa in the books though.
Farimer123,
Yeah. I know. I apologized in a follow up comment three minutes before you posted your reply. I assume you didn’t see my comment while you were typing yours.
On a lighter note… Yay! You figured out how to bold text!
PS Not sure how you did it. If you ever need to do it “manually,” the code for bolding is “strong.”.
Just enclose that word (strong) between the sign (“”) right before the text you want to bold, and “” right after it. (Obviously, if I typed the commands exactly how they should appear, the commands would disappear from this comment.)
You can do the same thing to italicize, using the commands “em” before and “/em” after, enclosed between , instead of “strong” and “/strong” for bold-face.
To be charitable, Sophie Turner/Sansa was often an enigma when it came to interpreting her character’s thoughts from her facial expressions alone. I don’t blame the actress: Many times, the showrunners did not explain to her what Sansa was supposed to be thinking or feeling. (Exhibit “B”: Sansa’s motives for concealing KotV).
On the other hand, some actors and actresses just seem to have a natural gift for conveying thoughts and emotions from facial expressions alone. Exhibit “1”: Maisie Williams wordlessly portraying the books’ “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue on the Braavos dock in S5. (End gratuitously inserted ASNAWP reference.)
Back to the KitN coronation scene: It’s nice that D&D explained in an “Inside the Episode” segment that Sansa doesn’t fully trust Jon; and that there was “a hint of conflict” and “a little bit of jealousy.” However, there was nothing onscreen during the scene to convey any of that to the viewer.
As a result, some fans interpreted Sansa’s expression as pride or happiness for Jon. Others felt she was showing concern for Jon, with a snake like LF lurking around. Still others thought Sansa wasn’t thrilled that she had been passed over in favor of Jon Snow after Lyanna Mormont announced “I don’t care if he’s a bastard; Ned Stark’s blood runs through his veins. He’s my king, from this day until his last day.”
I honestly did not know what to make of Sansa’s expressions. However, I did not detect “a hint of conflict” or “jealousy” when I was watching that scene. How was I supposed to???
Well, I wouldn’t say how Sansa treated Jon was far better than how the rest did.
I’m not condemning Sansa for this, she was behaving how she was taught and was told was appropriate: that a bastard was not the same as a trueborn, which is per Westeros custom. This doesn’t mean she bullied or played Mean Girl with Jon or was awful toward him. I’m trying to explain how this impacted their relationship growing up.
Sansa thinks of Jon three times throughout the books and she thinks of him as her ‘bastard half brother’ in two of those times and as her ‘half-brother’ in one of those times. You reference Bran thinking of Jon as a bastard — well, Sansa does too. Also, when she talks about Jon with Arya, she refers to Jon as a bastard.
The difference is Jon feels that differentiation from Sansa:
They do have family memories together in flashbacks and I’m not saying Sansa isn’t polite but Jon has felt that impact of Sansa’s differentiation. And… she does look down on his bastardy:
Even when Sansa wishes to see Jon again in AFFC, she thinks, “He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her.”
As for Robb, as far as book passages go, it was one time that Robb referred to Jon as bastard born when they were playing one of their games as kids:
I can’t find another instance where Jon remembers Robb calling him a bastard?
I think my point is that Jon felt a difference in treatment from Sansa verses the rest.
I’m not saying she was awful but that his bastardy did have an impact and create some level of tension growing up between them.
Dame of Mercia,
If the “formatting buttons” have vanished, take a look at my 2:47 pm comment about manually inserting codes for bold-face and italics.
The look Sansa and Littlefinger shared at the end of that scene conveyed it to me pretty strongly that there was still something holding Sansa back from fully trusting all of this, but I know people interpreted this scene differently.
I agree that it certainly doesn’t help clarify matters when the actress and show runner aren’t necessarily on the same page of what should be conveyed and how. It naturally leads to a lot of assumptions and misinterpretations.
Oh good! I’ll take that as an implied invitation to post a link to another early season interview that’s aged well in hindsight. Lemme find it…
Thanks! That image explains coding better than I could.
Efi,
As a pre-books, show-only fan, from what I gather the diversion of Sansa to WF on the show, followed by her extensive scenes with Jon starting from their wonderful reunion at Castle Black in early- or mid-Season 6, developed the Jon & Sansa relationship more than the books did.
(That it arguably came at the expense of showcasing the Jon & Arya relationship is another matter. I won’t whinge about that. For the time being.)
Oh sh*t! Ignore my suggestions. The symbols and codes aren’t visible in my comment. Please refer to the imgur image posted by adrianacandle at 1:02 pm.
Dame of Mercia,
(Supplementing my reply to you as well.)
Ten Bears,
Thank-you! I hope it comes in handy for people wondering how to format in the absence of a GUI!
When Jon and Sansa reunited at Castle Black in 6×04, I believe that is the first interaction they have in real time. In the books, their interactions so far are confined to memories. Two I can think of is when Sansa advised Jon to compliment a girl’s name (which I think is pretty cute) and when Jon and Robb pranked Sansa, Arya, and Bran (pre-Rickon).
I had that problem too when I also tried to recreate the code with spaces between the text, angle brackets, and forward slashes -_-
Alternatively, if some prefer to directly copy and paste, I put the formatting codes (that I know) up at PasteBin! 😀
Farimer123,
For me there was absolutely no balance between the three in season 8. I’m left with more questions than I have answers.
For example, what’s the deal with Ice? Will it be remade? Will Bran and Sansa take the two pieces?
What about LF’s dagger? what’s the story behind that? Was it Rhaegar’s dagger?
How come no one mentions the fact that a Targaryen dagger, the one that was meant to murder Bran, ended up in Stark possession?
How come no one even hints that it should go to Jon after all is said and done [whereby Jon, being the gallant brother that he is would give it to his favorite sister] ?
Did Ned’s beheading not matter anymore? So, Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, were quick to forget all that the Lannisters did to them?
Did they forgive everything for the sake of defeating the big Other?
Are they best pals with Tyrion?
Do they tolerate Jamie’s presence just like that, and because he deflowered Brienne?
And why is it that Jamie’s preventive murder of Aerys didn’t come up? Should no one [: Jon] know that he saved a city by murdering a king?
[anyone can give me a hint, please do; I’m still not over the fact that I’ve been watching seven seasons of Stark suffering for nothing; none of the crimes against them were addressed]
But I don’t think that Jon’s identity relates more to his bastard past. I think you are right, they did accept Jon as a brother, it was established already in season 6 and there’s more in season 7. This, however, does not mean that I wouldn’t like to see the sisters talking about their father was true to their mother after all; to lament the fact that Catelyn died without knowing the truth; that Robb died without knowing the truth. Did Sansa and Arya share a scene in season 8? No, they didn’t. Only the common scenes with others.
It’s just that his identity changes a lot the political dynamic of the whole story, which is why the scene was cut. Obviously (as I see it) it wouldn’t focus on Jon’s bastardy, but on Jon’s Targaryenness.
There’s a zillion ways it could go.
Sansa pointing out that he was in danger; that he was the heir to the throne; Jon repeating that he wants no crown; that he loved Daenerys and she loved him; Arya asking what would he do now; Jon answering that he had to follow her South because he pledged himself to her; Arya mentioning (in time) that she knew a murderer when she saw one; someone would have to point out the incest; Jon should lament the fact that he didn’t know. Obviously they’d repeat that they’re siblings and that Jon’s parentage didn’t mean anything, that they’re still family.
And so much more.
I don’t see any balance in the story as it unfolded (and the above was all from the show, without involving the books). Season 8 was only fire and blood, and little bit of lion. I think that all the above would have enhanced the drama of the story without even revealing too much, and I’m following their story and the alleged “romance” which -for me- didn’t come off on screen. Adding that scene at the godswood would only cost them a few more minutes of screentime and it would make a huge difference to the Stark fans.
In fact, the Starks are so separated in season 8 that one is justified to think that they really put a lot of effort so that they don’t meet anywhere for any reason. With the Starks they finished the story in the excellent crypts promo. Even the promo teased the significance of Jon’s identity (the feather, the crypts, Catelyn’s voice), but the show failed to live up even to that.
LOL LOL LOL
They made a natural-size statue of Jon in the crypts, teasing his Stark identity, only to tell us in the end that Jon will be forever a bastard!
Get out of here, I’m laughing my guts out. The inconsistecy of it all is beyond description, beyond words.
[please excuse my rant Farimer]
Ten Bears,
Going back to your earlier post about wanting to have more scenes where characters react to in-show events, it got me thinking…
Wouldn’t it have been great to see Theon’s reaction to Ramsey’s death?
That’s an example of the kinds of scenes that I really wish season 8 made time for. They may not be essential to the plot, but they have dramatic payoff. It’s cashing in on certain emotional investments that the audience made earlier.
Interestingly, the wolves are no longer a pack and are lone wolves once again.
I would assume Brienne will keep both swords, but what she’ll do with them is anyone’s guess. I wouldn’t be surprised if she forged them back into one sword for herself to use.
Really? Well, I’m a musical moron, so I’ll defer to you. I liked that score accompanying Arya’s sailing away at the end of S4e10. Not sure what you mean by “useless bombast,” and I wouldn’t remember or recognize the Gregor Clegane theme. Other commenters can differentiate between House- and character-themes. I cannot. I never had an aptitude for music. 😖
I don’t think this was something that people knew since it seems Jaime only told Brienne. He kept the truth of it to himself, why he killed Aerys and that Aerys wanted to “burn them all” (“burn the mall” ™ Ten Bears). When Brienne asked why he never told anyone, Jaime replied:
Ten Bears,
I totally saw a hint of a little jealousy or maybe uncertainty.
Efi,
Sansa said to Jon in the show when he said he was a bastard “you’re not to me”.
Adrianacandle,
Was their farewell scene at Winterfell a book scene? Sth about “so long, Stark” where Robb replied “so long, bastard” ? I might be confused and that little scene doesn’t exist in the books, but I think it does. (perhaps I’m mixing it up with sth else?)
And of course you’re right, Sansa does treat Jon differently. She realizes “since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant” that it’s something that hurt Jon, and stops using it; and Jon knows this and therefore values it and he remembers it tenderly. I think it’s a very tender thing between these two.
But she did call him bastard to Arya. She was in front of others and Jon was not there, but again in that scene (the sewing scene, in the books) Sansa understands that Jon is hurt because he is illegitimate and she explains his behavior via his feelings.
In general Sansa is very sensitive and senses these little things that make a difference to people. It’s her strong point.
But I don’t think that she looks down on him. Perhaps because his mother was “common” but that’s a somewhat different thing than looking down on him for being a bastard. It’s a class thing, not a moral thing like the qualities attached to bastard born children.
Fireandblood87,
Eh, that little post was book-based.
In the show they did that, they had Sansa validating Jon’s Starkness at every turn.
In the books there will be no such thing because Robb has legitimized Jon as a Stark.
Efi,
They did have their good-bye scene in the books and Robb does not call Jon a bastard, he calls Jon ‘Snow’ (as Robb does in the show while Jon calls Robb ‘Stark’):
Other than that one memory of them as kids, I can’t remember Robb calling Jon ‘bastard’.
I don’t remember anything like this in the books — that Sansa realized ‘bastard’ hurt Jon and so she stopped using it or that Jon knows this and remembers this tenderly. Do you have a quote?
Sansa… I’m not saying this to be mean to the character but I didn’t interpret this scene as Sansa feeling concern for Jon’s feelings but more in the vein of … (and I say this gently) I felt she was being a bit patronizing. But YMMV! This is one of the instances where I felt Sansa was looking down on Jon because he was a bastard. She thinks Prince Joffrey is the best and believes Jon is just jealous because he’s a bastard.
I think Sansa is coming to learn this, yes, and I think it’s a very important part of her development! I think she has a good capacity for compassion, which grows as she learns more and more about people, the world, and what they go through. Yet, in the sheltered environment Sansa grew up in, I don’t think she started out that way (which is not saying she’s horrible! She’s a typical 11-year old girl who is learning, she’s not trying to be mean — well, except to Arya sometimes — and Arya gives as good as she gets — but it’s not like I can judge that. I was mean to my sisters too. They sucked!)
It feels to me that Sansa regards Jon less because he is a bastard, that he’s her half-brother, and is quick to make that distinction :/
It’s not like this can’t change! But as of AFFC, it does feel like Sansa has less regard for Jon than her other siblings because Jon is “only [her] half brother.”
I miss GOT because I loved the story, the characters, the setting. I loved all the people in front and behind the camera. I will forever grateful to all of them, cast and crew, for delivering eight magnificent seasons of television which changed soo many standards and the expectations of what television could and should deliver.
This was a once in a lifetime television event that pushed the boundaries of the medium and left movies in the dust (most quality TV leaves movies behind and it has for sometime now). Which was about time. I also miss the creativity, talent and imagination which brought this show to life. I am just glad that as a viewer/fan, I was a small part in all this.
Stray Observations/Random Thoughts:
* I wonder what ever ended up happening in Essos anyway. Now that Dany is dead, would the slavers return to power?
* It would be really cool to see Jon and Tormund go on an expedition further North of the Wall to explore the White Walker home and see what’s still there. I think it was called the Land of Always Winter? Would’ve made a really cool one-off spin-off type of episode.
* Cersei hired Bronn at the beginning of season 8 to kill her brothers, so she clearly wanted them dead, yet in episode 4 when she has an easy chance to have Tyrion killed, she didn’t take it. I don’t really get that.
* Why didn’t Tyrion and Dany ever discuss a strategy involving trying to stealthily infiltrate KL from the inside like they did in Meereen and Yunkai? Tyrion knew KL inside and out, especially the Red Keep. Wouldn’t that have been the most realistic option for Tyrion instead of constantly trying to convince Cersei to surrender? Tyrion was desperate for Dany not to burn KL down yet he never mentioned this as an option to her?
* Varys was a master manipulator in KL yet under Dany’s rule he was basically relegated to a messenger and openly committed treason. Varys and Tyrion just weren’t the same after they left KL.
* Not a major point, but I wish we got to find out what Varys heard in the flames and who said it.
* I wish we got to find out how the Quaithe knew everything back in season 2. Without knowing, she was basically just a plot device to tell Jorah where the dragons were.
* Was Cersei lying about her “black haired” baby back in season 1 when she was talking to Catelyn? If not, then she had more children than the prophecy foretold. I assume she was lying, but I don’t think this was ever addressed.
Mr Derp,
“That’s an example of the kinds of scenes that I really wish season 8 made time for. They may not be essential to the plot, but they have dramatic payoff. It’s cashing in on certain emotional investments that the audience made earlier.“
Yes. That’s a good way to put it. Cashing in on our emotional investments. And character interaction scenes like that only take a few minutes, and don’t require all the bells and whistles of the CGI-intensive battle scenes with hundreds of extras.
Theon learning about Ramsay’s fate at the hands of Sansa would’ve been rewarding – and maybe more fulfilling than hearing Sansa snark about it to Sandor (who had no connection to Ramsay).
I for one wanted Sansa to learn what happened to that smirking sadistic Kingsguard who got his jollies belting her in the face and punching her in the stomach. (“He punched me in the stomach too. Right before I gouged out his eyes and poked him full of so many holes…”).
Likewise, to bookend the S2 scene in which Sansa described to Tyrion how she was plagued by nightmares after learning how her mother had been murdered and her body desecrated, and how Robb had been killed and his corpse mutilated, I would not have minded a followup scene in S7 (maybe after snooping Sansa found Arya’s face-satchel) in which Arya divulged to Sansa what exactly happened to Walder, his damn moron sons who’d cut Catelyn’s throat and butchered their pregnant sister in law, and the other Frey doofuses who slaughtered the Starks at the Red Wedding.
I also would have enjoyed a twenty-second conversation in which Sandor also learned what happened to Meryn F*cking Trant. (”Meryn Trant was killed? Who by?” A: “By me.” Q: “How the f*ck did you do that?” A: “Trant didn’t have a sword. Or armor. Only a wooden stick.” [Sandor smiles with barely-disguised pride.]
Most of all though, I would’ve liked at least a few brief scenes between Jon & Arya. Their “reunion” was brief and unfulfilling – and was more about Sansa and Dany-bashing, and contained that unearned line about Sansa, i.e.: “She’s the smartest person I ever met.”
I can rationalize the downplaying Jon & Arya reunification by a narrative decision to focus on continuing and completing the Arya & Sandor story – though cutting down extended scenes of characters grimacing and walking around while saying nothing, and excising completely that cackling clown Euron, would’ve provided ample time for some more “high thread-count” interpersonal scenes.
Ah, wishful thinking! S8 would’ve run for 20 episodes if we had all got what we wanted. Which would not have been so terrible….
Rightfully so: Sansa’s emotional state was so ambiguous from her facial expressions that we all could interpret them differently. I did not see jealousy or uncertainty; I certainly don’t doubt that you could have and did.
Frankly, the audience should not have to resort to the showrunners’ explanation after the fact in an “Inside the Episode” segment.
By comparison, here’s that scene of Arya with Needle in S5e3 on the Braavos dock (at 2:36 – 3:01). Is there any doubt from those fifteen seconds what she’s thinking and how she’s feeling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKEDKhN9nLQ
🗡👸🏻
Mr Derp,
Mr. D: We really ought to devote a Forum Section topic to such Unanswered Questions & Unresolved Mysteries. There are more than a few that have irked many of us. (I for one have a slew of questions and some apparent inconsistencies about the VS dagger, including its provenance, ownership, and geolocation.)
Ten Bears,
Not a bad idea, but for now, I’m ok with talking about it here. I’m not particularly interested in the Forum Section. There’s not much else to discuss anyway until HOTD news comes out.
Re: MotherofWolves, 4/29/20, 2:13 pm reply
So, as I remarked a little while ago, I am construing your reply as an implied invitation to (re-)post another interview, with my Arya-centric commentary. (I may have posted this a few months ago.)
• Here’s a link to Maisie Williams’s 2013 Thronecast interview about Season 3. (10:32 long.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AASqKKgSndo
Take a look the part of the interview at 5:37 – 7:05. Maisie is asked about the accuracy of an Arya Funko Pop figurine. In particular, she states…
6:00 – 6:06 “I recently saw Cersei Lannister’s, and she’s got some nice eyebrows, and I was like…. (lifts up her bangs) I’ve got some pretty good eyebrows too…”
6:07 – 7:05 (Draws in eyebrows on figurine with a marker.)
• Fast forward three years to Lady Crane’s scene with Arya in S6e6 (aired on May 29, 2016):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZbiNiDsk48
I’ve often wondered whether it was serendipity, coincidence, or a deliberate writing decision when Lady Crane tells Arya she has “wonderful eyebrows”:
Lady Crane: “You have very expressive eyes, Mercy. Wonderful eyebrows.”
MotherofWolves,
6:16 Note: Reply stuck in Moderation. Maybe because it contains multiple links. To avoid duplication, I’ll wait a while before trying to separate my comment into two parts.
Adrianacandle,
“Aerys wanted to “burn them all” (“burn the mall” ™ Ten Bears)…”
—-
Ha ha ha! 🤣
I’ll have you know I am looking at the Mall from my sky cell window as I type this, and thinking to myself that at least for the time being, all the stores are closed, the entrances are locked, the parking lots are empty, and the construction cranes and bulldozers are unmanned. It might be an auspicious time for someone prone to auditory hallucinations to “hear” the voice of the Mad King instructing him: “Burn the Mall!”
Of course, that someone won’t be me, and I am not suggesting that anyone should actually set fire to the place.
Young Dragon,
You posted a link about fast paced and rushed Storytelling, or something for a while. Do you have the link or do you know the name of the site? If you don’t mind of course 😁
Part 1 of 2 Parts [re-posting, in two parts, 6:15 pm comment stuck in Moderation]
Re: MotherofWolves, 4/29/20, 2:13 pm reply
So, as I remarked earlier today (at 3:28 pm), I am construing your reply as an implied invitation to (re-)post another interview, with my Arya-centric commentary. (I may have posted this a few months ago.)
• Here’s a link to Maisie Williams’s 2013 Thronecast interview about Season 3. (10:32 long.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AASqKKgSndo
Take a look the part of the interview at 5:37 – 7:05. Maisie is asked about the accuracy of an Arya Funko Pop figurine. In particular, she states…
6:00 – 6:06 “I recently saw Cersei Lannister’s, and she’s got some nice eyebrows, and I was like…. (lifts up her bangs) I’ve got some pretty good eyebrows too…”
6:07 – 7:05 (Draws in eyebrows on figurine with a marker.)
… to be continued in Part 2
MotherofWolves,
Part 2 of 2 Parts (continued from Part 1 at 8:19 pm)
• Fast forward three years to Lady Crane’s scene with Arya in S6e6 (aired on May 29, 2016):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZbiNiDsk48
I’ve often wondered whether it was serendipity, coincidence, or a deliberate writing decision when Lady Crane tells Arya she has “wonderful eyebrows”:
Lady Crane: “You have very expressive eyes, Mercy. Wonderful eyebrows.”
At least fire would cleanse 😉
As a bit of a serious note, this made me reflect on how much I miss malls now, something I thought would never happen. Starbucks, Yogenfruz, Bath & Body Works, being able to try stuff on in person… 🙁
Mr Derp,
You can’t spend 7 plus seasons building up Dany the way they did just to reverse all of it within 3 episodes.
As commenter Jai explained, they spent seven seasons carefully presenting a charming psychopath as if she could indeed be The Savior, if only she could overcome her pesky murderous tendencies — which she could, we were most definitely assured, if she’d just listen to those older, bitter men she had for advisors. (But what happens when those advisors are gone or discredited?)
As Jai noted, the warning signs started early:
There was also a major warning early on, when Dany was shown as smiling during Drogo’s rant about raping Westerosi women — this sadism was a huge red flag that Dany was never actually the “good person” she was portrayed as (and believed herself to be) until the clever “bait and switch” near the end of the show.
And she’s not just “smiling,” either. Watch her reactions during that scene. She looks positively aroused as Drogo bellows on and on about all of the rape, murder, and pillage he’ll soon commit to put their as-yet unborn son on the Iron Throne. Under Dany’s command, Drogo’s reptilian namesake would do far worse in King’s Landing.
In Season 7, we see Kinvara happily describe Dany’s dragons as “fire made flesh,” who will “purify non-believers by the thousands.” I took that to be the moment Varys really begins to wonder if Dany should really be trusted with all the power he’s been planning to help her obtain.
The signs were there all along. We were repeatedly provided with convenient justifications/rationalizations to believe Dany would be a benevolent dictator, so we went along with our hope, even as our own eyes and ears told us otherwise. Then she turned out to be the worst villain in the story. As Jai concludes, it was “very clever storytelling.”
Adrianacandle,
You quoted (Jon’s thoughts from the books):
“…And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had … yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him.”
How sweet! It’s kind of a shame the show didn’t follow through with this after their abridged reunion. They hardly had any screentime together.
They could have at least had a few scenes fighting side by side in S8e3, instead of having Jon crouching behind a rock and shouting at an undead dragon.
In fact, the pre-S8 teaser of Sansa, Jon & Arya in the WF crypts had me psyched for such a scene. That teaser showed Jon and Arya turning around to face a threat, and drawing their swords together. Squee! I said to myself…
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
That was a convincing synopsis. Allow me to add my two cents…
• The unnecessary Tarly barbecue following Dany’s barbaric “kneel or fry” ultimatum to POWs indicated to me that under her charming exterior and blather about building a better world, was Dany the firebug whose impulse was to go full on Dracarys! first and ask questions later. (“I didn’t come here to put people in chains” is a lame excuse for incinerating prisoners.)
• For me, the biggest red flag that Dany was a danger to nuke a city if there were no advisors who could “rein in her worst impulses” came at the beginning of S6e9…
(Dany & Tyrion, S6e9: Mereen under bombardment)
***
Tyrion: “Do we have a plan?”
Daenerys: “I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleets afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan.”
(Tyrion grimaces)
Dany: “You don’t approve?”
Tyrion: “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing when the Lannister armies were at his gates? Probably not. Well, he told my brother and Jaime told me. He had caches of wildfire hidden under the Red Keep, the Guildhalls, the Sept of Baelor, all the major thoroughfares. He would have burned every one of his citizens. The loyal ones and the traitors. Every man, woman, and child. That’s why Jaime killed him.”
Dany: “This is entirely different.”
Tyrion: “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different. I’d like to suggest an alternate approach.”
Tyrion’s alternate approach, to conduct an aerial show and tell of dragons flame broiling one ship to convince the rest of the Masters’ armada to surrender, successfully preempted Dany’s “burn them all!” battle plan.
By S8, Tyrion no longer had any sway with Dany. Nor did anyone else.
My main reservation is that portraying Dany as going ballistic due to a heredity mental illness kind of detracted from the transformation from Mhysa to mass murderer. My other problem was that so many setbacks (e.g., loyalists’ deaths, betrayals, ingratitude and estrangements) seemed contrived to happen all at once in order to drive Dany nuts.
Anyway, Dany going full on fire and blood wasn’t a total surprise…
Yes, I would have loved that 🙁 After he (crash-)landed to the ground, I wish he had some scenes fighting alongside Arya where he could witness just how well she learned to wield Needle (even if she wasn’t using Needle at the time!):
Same scene from the books:
Adrianacandle,
I did misremember the farewell scene then! But Stark-Snow also has the same significance, only gentler, to underscore that they are not the same. They both know their place. It is sad knowing that Jon is separated from his family because he is not a legitimate son of Ned.
The line you seek is in the abstract you quoted:
“He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant.”
I take this to mean that before she knew what it meant, she called him a bastard. She must have been very young, because she was only 11 when they parted. When she understood the significance of it, Sansa stopped calling him that.
Why? As I feel “half-brother” is only a gentler way to say “bastard”, but a half brother can be a legitimate half-brother too. So by calling him “half-brother” Sansa takes away the moral connotation of “bastard” while at the same time maintaining the difference between them. She found a way to please both Jon and her mother (if that was at stake). But I think she might have felt that “bastard” was a curse too and didn’t befit her way of speaking and addressing him.
I see the same thing in the sewing scene, which is a very interesting scene.
Joffrey is a prince, trueborn (as far as they know, of course), handsome, and taller than Jon even though younger.
And Sansa says “poor Jon, he is jealous because he’s a bastard”.
What impresses me here is that she doesn’t say that he’s jealous because Joffrey is a prince, or that he is taller and handsome, or something else equally superficial like girls of her age would say, but that Jon is a bastard, which again narrows it down to Jon’s identity. It seems to me that Sansa here expressly recognizes that this is what hurts Jon, that it’s the source of all his pain and that his behavior in relation to Joffrey is explained through that alone. It’s impressive for an 11 y-o girl to be so perceptive.
Of course Sansa is a product of her own environment. She grew up to be self-conscious of social differences but no one instructed her as to what hurts people or with regard to their desires and their own wishes. Instead of being obnoxious and arrogant and show everyone their place, she is intuitive and polite and it shows all through her chapters at KL and at the Eyrie (I’d say especially with relation to Robert Arryn and the knights of the tourney, Waynwoods et. al. in her released WoW chapter).
I suppose Jon’s bastard status that no one ever forgets will perhaps play a role in the next book and I have no idea what that will be, since he is legitimized as a Stark by Robb. We’ll see!
On the idea of Jon and Tormund beyond the wall about two years back there were leaked reports (in Hollywood) that HBO were looking into the possibility of a Jon Snow spin off. The idea was shot down quickly at the time (I suspect in fear of spoilers to the GOT ending) but I do think that and an Arya spin off could work if House of the Dragon falls flat.
Efi,
Well, Robb isn’t using this term to divide himself from Jon as brothers emotionally and doesn’t seem to regard Jon as any less than that. He and Jon are pretty open in their brotherly affection for each other and Robb never distances himself from Jon because of it. Jon and Robb have quite a close relationship — but what’s more, while Jon is definitely aware Robb is the trueborn heir while he himself is a bastard, he doesn’t feel Robb is always reminding them of the class difference between them.
As for the Night’s Watch, a lot of that is because Ned had to make hasty plans for all of his kids because Robert’s arrival was unexpected. The Watch was also something Jon expressed an interest in wanting to join because it provided opportunities that aren’t currently available to Jon otherwise at this time. Ned must go south, Catelyn won’t let Jon stay, and the Watch is something trueborn Starks have joined in the past. Ned had hoped Jon would stay with Robb because they are so close but Catelyn wouldn’t stand for that.
It seems to me that the quote appears to mean that when Sansa learned that Jon was her half brother because he is a bastard and what that specifically meant, that’s when she started only referring to him as her half-brother and making that class difference clear between them. Especially if this was impressed upon her by Catelyn.
The thing is, what hurts Jon is that he’s being excluded, separated from the rest, and limited as a result of his bastardy. I think Sansa’s statement is kind of superficial because she’s saying Jon gets jealous because he’s a bastard — she’s not sympathizing with why Jon’s bastardy hurts him (which is natural, she’s 11). And in this same quote, there’s a difference between how she views Prince Joffrey (gallant) and Princess Myrcella (pleased to have her with them) vs. her bastard brother Jon, who Sansa says is jealous. When Arya objects that Jon is their brother, Sansa proceeds to quickly correct Arya that Jon is their *half*-brother.
Westeros prejudice already says bastards are jealous people. We have access to Sansa’s mind and Jon’s exclusion is not something that Sansa ever really reflects on or is sympathizing with and it doesn’t appear she’s recognizing what hurts Jon (which is natural, she’s 11). I don’t think she gets an idea of that until AFFC.
I think Sansa is polite, yes, and she’s not trying to be hurtful, but she still makes this separation between herself and Jon and it hurts Jon. In Westeros (well, not Dorne really), bastards are not viewed well and certainly not ideal to associate with so yes, Sansa is a product of her environment, she’s acting in a way she was taught. But I wouldn’t say Sansa is intuitive or sensitive at this point in her story.
There’s no real support for the idea that Sansa was using this word as a compromise to please both Jon and her mother. I don’t think Sansa considers Jon that much. That doesn’t mean she’s not polite to him though. I think she does start the series on the more classist side of things.
However, I think this is important for her arc because I believe part of Sansa’s development involves her getting away from that as she experiences life past AGOT. I’d like to talk about Sansa’s arc in my next post 🙂
Efi,
(Continuing on from my last post)
I think this is part of Sansa’s arc — realizing that class, status, and beauty are not linked with a person’s character. For instance, the knight who protects her isn’t beautiful Loras who seems to be perfect in every way. It’s Sandor Clegane of all people. In AFFC, Sansa realizes she has no brothers now except for Jon, the brother she always regarded as only her half-brother. While Sansa thinks that Jon is “only her half brother”, he’s now “the only brother that remained to her” and for the first time, I think Sansa begins to find a connection with him (“I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.”)
Meanwhile, beautiful Joffrey and Cersei — what Sansa used to want — turn out to be monsters who torment her and court life likewise turns out to be a nightmare. In all that she’s suffered, in the absence of things she once took for granted, I think Sansa is now starting to embrace what she formerly excluded, things that previously didn’t fit her world the way she dreamed it would be. Things like boring Winterfell, her embarrassing little sister Arya, her baseborn brother Jon — she desperately wants all things back now while her dreams and fairytale notions turned out to be hell. I think this is heartbreaking and very true to life.
In the above AGOT sewing circle quote we were discussing, this is a Sansa before all of that. Sansa displays a different attitude toward royalty (Prince Joffrey is gallant, it is wonderful to have the princess Myrcella sewing with them) vs bastardy (“Poor Jon”, “he gets jealous because he’s a bastard”). She finds herself unable to relate to Arya, thinking it would be easier if Arya was a bastard like Jon to explain why she is so different from her sister, believing that her real sister was stolen. Jon is often excluded from Sansa’s recollections and dreams of being back with her family. Her attitude toward Jon doesn’t begin to change until AFFC when, in the absence of her trueborn brothers, Sansa realizes her only brother left is Jon and wishes to see him.
I’m not saying Sansa or Jon ever hated each other, not at all, and I’ve never meant Sansa was trying to be malicious or mean toward Jon. In all three times she thinks of Jon after she leaves Winterfell, it’s sympathetic — but, until AFFC (the third time), her sympathy is not over his bastardy. In the first instance, Sansa feels sorry for Jon in AGOT when she sees what a ‘black knight’ of the Night’s Watch really looks like (ugly, unwashed Yoren). In the second instance, Sansa prays for her family and friends and includes Jon in her prayers.
However, Jon’s bastardy did make a difference for Sansa in how she regards him and Jon felt that. Yet what tension there was due to this, it evidently wasn’t enough to make Jon mentally cut her off and by all accounts, she certainly was polite and nice to him. Jon still thinks of Sansa as much as he does Bran (often as one of his sisters) and he includes her among his siblings. It’s not like Sansa has earned Jon’s hostility or anything like that. Jon still has some fond memories of Sansa but he feels the hurt and separation over the distinction Sansa makes with him vs. her trueborn siblings — always separating him as her half-brother.
I think Sansa’s compassion and empathy are growing. I mean, it’s true that Sansa has no way of knowing what it’s truly like to grow up as a stigmatized outsider and that’s not her fault. Jon (bastard), Arya (difficulty fitting into gender roles), Dany (exiled princess on the run, Mad King’s daughter), Tyrion (dwarf), and Brienne (unable to physically conform to expectations of female nobility) — these have been lifelong realities for them that impacted them significantly and caused them suffering. Meanwhile, when the series starts out, Sansa fits in with regard to all of the above respects — trueborn, beautiful, excels at ladylike tasks, wants to be a lady, was born into an accepted noble family, doesn’t suffer from stigma. Sansa’s the poster-child for the ideal highborn girl.
But, by ASOS, Sansa now knows what it’s like to be blamed for things that aren’t her fault — something Jon, Dany, and Tyrion all experience. In Sansa’s case, after Ned’s false confession and execution, Sansa is held hostage and deemed to have traitor’s blood. She is held in mistrust and suspicion over this, punished for her father’s and brother’s actions, and suffers.
I guess that’s a long way of explaining how I think Sansa is learning, growing, and developing in positive aspects. Sansa did start out with some very different attitudes at the start (which is true of most of the characters, who do change, learn, and grow) but she is pulling the veil from these attitudes.
Yet later in the season she convinces the Dothraki and Drogo that raping and pillaging is wrong. This continued under her command in KL (that we saw).
Also, I seem to recall Sansa looked positively aroused while she watched Ramsey get eaten alive, yet she didn’t turn into some pseudo-Hitler.
Arya looked positively aroused when torturing Meryn Trant to death too, yet she didn’t turn into Hitler either.
This is part of the problem. When Dany did something controversial, it’s supposed to be a clear and obvious sign that she’s a psychopath, yet when countless other characters in this show did something controversial it was dismissed as simply revenge, or just “hey, it’s GoT, this stuff happens all the time”.
Damn edit timer. Continued…
It’s a double standard that worked simply because of her Targaryen genetics. Personally, I think that’s kind of lame. It’s ok that we don’t agree though. I’m glad for those of you who thought it was the tits.
Ten Bears,
Thank you for going to the trouble of posting these. Maisie is such a treat to watch and the putting eyebrows on the figure was perfection. Perhaps the writing team were actually paying tribute to how well Maisie uses her eyes to emote.
She and Charles Dance really enjoyed working together which translated into wonderful scenes on screen.
Many thanks again! ☺️
By the time HotD actually premieres and has time to either thrive or bomb it’ll be at least a couple years. Add in another couple years to produce and premiere a Jon or Arya spin off and we’re talking 2026ish. That might be a little too late at that point.
I agree with you. Other criticism usually alluded to justify Daenerys final actions that screams “double standards” is the fact that she was always a tyrant. People tend to forget that every power system we see in GoT and ASOIAF are tyrannies over the downtrodden, apart from the Night’s Watch, which has democratic elections. In the Iron Islands, it’s also possible to choose, but the king or queen must belong to the ruling family, if I’m not mistaken.
The only difference that would eventually arise between Daenerys’ rule and the previous kings we’ve seen in Westeros is that noble houses would lose part of their power to a more centralized form of government. With a kinder or crueler treatment of their subjects, Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells, Arryns, Baratheons, Martells were tyrants. Common people didn’t stand a chance to scrutinize the power of their liege lords. The same applies for the Targaryen dinasty.
For all the criticisms she received about Meereen, her ruling was a tremendous success there, as it was depicted in 6×10: after some mistakes, she managed to restore peace in Slaver’s Bay with former slaves transformed in free citizens, able to choose their representatives (yeah, resembles democracy). It’s the last thing we know of Meereen. We don’t know if it worked or not.
In a story that seemed to dive deeply into power dynamics and character dynamics, having a character that wants a position of power shouldn’t be enough to turn him/her into a villain (or to reveal that he/she is a villain). In the end, Daenerys didn’t want anything with ruling. She just wanted to liberate the whole world with her depleted army, even if she didn’t seriously adressed that idea before with her army in full strength. In that case, I agree with the Mad Queen thesis: that speech was pure insanity.
Tiago,
All of the characters in GoT went through some horrible stuff yet never descended into madness like Dany did. The only thing that separated Dany from the rest was her Targaryen genetics, so it’s really more of a mental health issue than anything else. Like I said above, I personally find that to be a complete cop-out and a rather lazy and cliched plot device.
Arya lost her parents, saw countless people killed, was blind for a time, killed others with enthusiam, needlessly tortured people before killing them, yet came out on the other side just fine. Wounded, but fine.
Sansa lost her parents, saw countless people killed, was repeatedly raped, sold off like a broodmare to the Boltons, watched Ramsey get eaten alive by dogs with a smirk on her face, yet she came out on the other side just fine. Wounded yes, but fine.
Jon lost his parents, saw countless people killed, had to kill children, was actually killed himself, betrayed by his sister, had to kill “muh qween” which got him banished despite all he did to save Westeros, yet he came out on the other side just fine. Wounded yes, but fine.
There are plenty more examples. Theon would be a perfect one even though he died in the end. He arguably had it worse than any of the rest, yet didn’t become “mad”.
But because Dany has Targaryen genes, she didn’t stand a chance no matter what did or didn’t happen to her. The game was rigged from the start.
Adrianacandle,
As of the end of ADWD (well AFFC really as Sansa isn’t in ADWD) Sansa is still in the Vale in the guise of Littlefinger’s bastard daughter. I wonder if it’s possible that book Sansa learns a little humility through being treated as a bastard.
Thank you for the information about spoilers. I don’t think it’s spoiling to mention that book Sansa is still in the Vale as the point in the show adaptation that Sansa was given Jeyne Poole’s subplot was where some viewers (not me) became disenchanted with the show. So I haven’t used spoiler code here. Efi’s screenshot version still shows so don’t worry about your comment on the subject having vanished into cyberspace Ten Bears.
I think she does! I talk a little about my view on this in my April 30, 2020, 6:34 am comment if you’re interested! 😀
Re: spoiler codes and formatting options, I also did a PasteBin document that you can copy and paste from if interested 🙂
(I agree that talking about Sansa’s Vale arc isn’t really spoilers)
Jon Snowed,
A. Neither the show nor the books built Danerys up to be a hero. She certainly has done heroic things, it is true, but she has also done terrible things. The problem is that some viewers only took in the good things Danerys has done while either dismissing or justifying the bad things she has done. If they were trying to portray Danerys as a hero, why would they have one of the slavers she crucified for the deaths of those children be completely innocent of the crime? Why have her feed an innocent man to her dragons? Why have her threaten to burn down cities? Why have her make the controversial decision of burning the Tarlys? Why have her execute her enemies in the most horrific ways possible? No, Danerys is a highly complex character who is capable of performing great and terrible deeds, depending on the circumstances.
C. Dany’s story wasn’t rushed at all. All the pieces were in place to make it believable and earned. As for shock value, it’s only shock value if it’s shock for the sake of shock. The Frey pies in season 6 was shock value. Danerys burning down King’s Landing was the natural progression of the story.
Tiago,
I also think D&D inadvertently added some confusion to the final season because a lot of what they said on the “Inside the Episodes” doesn’t add up…
• Inside the episode after season 7 episode 1 when talking about the difference between Cersei and Dany – “Cersei will do whatever she has to do to win. She’ll blow up the Sept if that will allow her to win even though it means killing hundreds, probably thousands, of innocent people. She’s capable of anything. Unlike Dany who’s constrained a little bit by her morality and her fear of hurting innocents.”
• Inside the episode after season 6 episode 9 – “Dany’s not her father and she’s not insane and she’s not a sadist, but there’s a Targaryen ruthlessness that comes with being one of the good Targaryens”.
• Inside the episode after “The Long Night” – They claim it’s “essentially the end of the Dothraki”. Until the very next episode when Greyworm says only half are gone and their board on the table shows this.
• D&D thought Dickon was the older brother when it was actually Sam. In fact, the entire reason for Sam going to the Wall was because he was the eldest brother and next in line.
I’ll just skip the “Dany kind of forgot about the IF” stuff.
Sometimes it seemed like D&D either lost track of the story at times or were simply not being truthful during these interviews.
talvikorppi,
The Dothraki didn’t stick around after Drogo. They didn’t stick around after Danerys roasted the other khals. Them not sticking around after Dany’s death is consistent with their character.
Adrianacandle,
I’ve seen people say this a lot, that we needed to see how Arya and Sansa would react to finding out their father never cheated on their mother. The problem with that is that they never cared. There is not one scene where they showed they had a problem with their father’s infidelity. Not one. Now, I wouldn’t have minded seeing them find out on screen, but I belong to the camp that says it wasn’t needed. It already knew what their reaction would be because Arya said it herself even before the reveal. “You will always be our brother.” The reveal didn’t change anything between them.
Mr Derp,
She didn’t convince Drogo and the Dothraki to give up their ways. She convinced Drogo to spare a few of the Lhazareen and take them as slaves. After Drogo agreed, I believe he told Mago to go find another woman to rape (paraphrasing, of course).
Arya and Sansa didn’t threaten to slaughter thousands of innocents, like Danerys did when she threatened to burn down Yunkai and Astapor. That said, they were both on a very dark path, and they managed to diverge from it, thanks to the people in their life. Danerys, unfortunately, lost a lot of the people she could rely which left her alone and isolated.
Mr Derp,
It wasn’t because Danerys was a Targaryen, it was because she’s a different character. Trials and suffering affects people in different ways. Arya and the rest managed to overcome their hardships and move forward in a positive direction, Danerys was not. I know it sucks for her fans, but you can’t say it doesn’t make sense.
Young Dragon,
You posted a link about fast paced and rushed Storytelling, or something, for a while. Do you have the link or do you know the name of the site?
The LightKing,
Here’s an article that discusses the definition of pacing in a story and how to make the pace faster:
https://www.writersdigest.com/writing-articles/by-writing-goal/improve-my-writing/7-tools-for-pacing-a-novel-keeping-your-story-moving-at-the-right-pace
Young Dragon,
Thank you 👍
Young Dragon,
You’re forgetting a detail: Daenerys named all the Dothraki her bloodriders. According to the Dothraki tradition, the bloodriders are obliged to avenge the death of their khal. They also have to follow their command. Maybe that’s why they didn’t rape or pillage in Westeros until the burning of King’s Landing. I’m not sure that was the reason for it. But when we see thousands of Dothraki unwilling to start a riot in the North, a land completely strange to them, short of food and resources to pillage, I think that’s enough proof that Daenerys had their behaviour under control.
However, I respect your opinion on her arc. A year after the end of GoT, I don’t think the viewers will change their opinions. You think the burning of King’s Landing was the result of Daenerys being a complex character. I think that Daenerys burning indiscriminately King’s Landing after surrender turned the complexity shown across the seasons into a caricature. That complexity I believe I watched across the seasons turned out to be quite meaningless, IMO. I expected Daenerys to die before season 8, but I never expected to see her becoming the worst person that ever set foot on Westeros.
This is just an opinion. Who’s right about the ending? You or me? I don’t know. I respect all opinions though. Different opinions are good to keep this community alive, when they’re expressed with civility.
Tiago,
I know bloodriders die with their khal, or at least, they’re supposed to, but I don’t remember it being said that they had to avenge their khal.
Danerys is one of my favorite characters and I am a big fan of hers. However, unlike her other fans, I don’t justify the dark things she has done. She’s killed people in the cruelest way imaginable on a regular basis and often lost control of her emotions. I loved her arc. Her fall from grace was spectacular and worthy of my favorite television show.
Yes, it’s perfectly acceptable to dislike the direction they took with Dany’s character. What I don’t get is people claiming that it came out of nowhere when she literally threatened to do it before.
As far as opinions go, there is no right or wrong. I don’t have a problem with people disliking the ending, so long as they remain respectful to the cast and crew, including D&D, as well as respectful to the people who actually enjoyed it.
Mr Derp,
I completely disagree I think it’s the opposite of cop outand lazy. Sounds to me like you didn’t like it so you just yell lazy like everyone else.
Mr Derp,
Sounds to me like a bunch of wh
Ten Bears,
Different circumstances and nobody said you had to watch the after episode. The whole point is were suppose to be wondering what she is thinking. Two scene that having two totally different context. Sounds like more of let’s find more stuff the blame on D&D the worst writers to ever exist.
Fireandblood87,
Sorry. Google Translate isn’t working. Try again.
Thanks for the attempted insult?
Between your frequent misquotes, your persecution complex, and your pearl clutching, your obsession with D&D is beyond unhealthy.
I never made a point of watching the ‘Inside The Episode’ clips. I’ve seen a few. My impression of D&D is that they didn’t seem to have done much preparation for those mini-commentaries, and they weren’t always very good at explaining what they meant.
Mr Derp,
Yet later in the season she convinces the Dothraki and Drogo that raping and pillaging is wrong.
No, Drogo stopped leading rape and pillage raids only after he sickened and died. He died because one of his former victims, Mirri Maaz Duur, intentionally poisoned him in the guise of healing him. (She explicitly said she did this to prevent Drogo from leading any more rape and pillage raids.) Dany later burned Duur alive, as part of the blood sacrifice which hatched her dragons. The connection between live dragons and violent, painful human death was there from the first moment the dragons crawled, so no one should have later claimed surprise at what Dany ordered Drogon to do.
Also, I seem to recall Sansa looked positively aroused while she watched Ramsey get eaten alive, yet she didn’t turn into some pseudo-Hitler.
The Lady of Winterfell knew that Ramsay had committed multiple beatings and rapes within the walls of Winterfell. (He had also committed kinslaying there, which is one of the worst crimes on Westeros.) Thus, she was legally empowered — and morally obligated — to punish him for his crimes. Any satisfaction she derived from her execution of this criminal differs in both degree and kind from Dany’s happy anticipation of widespread rape and slaughter of innocents in service of her personal ambitions.
When Dany did something controversial, it’s supposed to be a clear and obvious sign that she’s a psychopath,
Deriving pleasure from the very thought of innocents getting indiscriminately raped and murdered is, by definition, a clear and obvious sign that she’s a psychopath. Again, that’s such a different thing from taking personal satisfaction at (poetic) justice that I can’t even understand how you managed to equate them.
Yet she made it clear later on that raping, pillaging, and murdering would no longer be part of the Dothraki way. She also did this with the Greyjoys.
You’re cherry picking.
Getting sick pleasure from torture, mutilation, and murder is psychopathic, whether it’s based on revenge or not.
She was clearly “aroused” in that scene with Drogo, but every other time rape was mentioned in this Dany made a specific point to stop it.
And you’re also being insulting and disrespectul again when I have done no such thing to you….Knock it off.
Yet she made it clear later on that raping, pillaging, and murdering would no longer be part of the Dothraki way.
Which she then contradicted with her own example at King’s Landing. The Dothraki follow where their strong leaders take them, just as Jorah told her (and us) early in the story.
She also did this with the Greyjoys.
Well, to be clear, she told Yara and Theon the Ironborn couldn’t reave anymore. But Euron was already King of the Ironborn, and he assembled the largest armada in Ironborn history, which destroyed Yara’s fleet and killed Rhaegar. So her little proclamation to the junior Greyjoy kids didn’t really have much of a positive effect, now did it? (How were the Ironborn ultimately prevented from reaving? Did it involve widespread use of dragon fire?)
You’re cherry picking.
So, every time one of the many examples of her latent psychopathy is cited, it’s “cherry picking”? I think you’re getting into full-blown denial here. There are also numerous examples of her Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which Jai also described, in his aforementioned comment, as combining with her psychopathy and external factors to produce the slaughter at King’s Landing.
Getting sick pleasure from torture, mutilation, and murder is psychopathic, whether it’s based on revenge or not.
Sansa took satisfaction at having served poetic justice (in Westerosi terms) upon a chronic criminal. She also took satisfaction from getting revenge upon one of her tormentors, which, while understandable, did not speak well for her character. Those are whole different things from Dany’s happily imagining widespread rape and slaughter of *innocents* in the service of imposing absolute rule upon any survivors.
Punishing the guilty, now matter how sadistically gratifying for the punisher, is not anywhere near the same league as deriving pleasure from the very thought of killing innocent persons. The latter is an example of the latent psychopathy which Dany inherited from her father. That psychopathy enabled, but did not in and of itself guarantee, her later slaughter of innocents at King’s Landing.
And you’re also being insulting and disrespectul again when I have done no such thing to you…
“I’m glad for those of you who thought it was the tits.”
Okay. I think I’ve figured out what you were trying to say to me. (I’ll let Mr. D try to interpret what a “a bunch of wh” means in your reply to him. I’m unfamiliar with the abbreviation “wh.” White House maybe?)
First of all, with reference to Sansa’s facial expressions during the KitN coronation scene in S6e10:
• Your reply to me asserts that “the whole point is were [sic] supposed to be wondering what she is thinking.”
Why do you say that was the point, i.e., that the showrunners’ intent was to leave the audience confused and uncertain? I’ve already commented that the ambiguity of that scene left Sansa’s thoughts open to subjective interpretation, such that some viewers thought she was happy for Jon and proud of him; or that she was concerned for him with LF lurking in the background; or that she was perturbed that she’d been passed over after Lyanna Mormont said she didn’t care that Jon was a bastard and announced “he’s my king, from this day until his last day” – after which the other lords followed suit.
I did not try to shoot down anyone else’s interpretation. I conceded nobody was right and nobody was wrong.
Nevertheless, I am not aware of anything suggesting that the ambiguity was intentional on the part of the showrunners, the director, or the actress. On what basis did you assert that “the whole point” is that we were “supposed to be wondering what [Sansa is] thinking”? I’ll readily accept this was the intent if you can explain how you came to this conclusion.
• Next, you stated: “Two scene that having two totally different context.”
Ummm… The inapt use of the singular and the plural make it difficult for me to understand what you are talking about. Two scene(s)?
I’m going to guess you were referring to my discussion about the varying abilities of actresses using facial expressions alone to convey their characters’ thoughts and emotions, and my
comparison of Sansa/Sophie Turner in the S6e10 scene with Arya/Maisie Williams in the S5 Braavos dock & Needle scene.
If so, what do the different contexts have to do with it? All I said was that from my perspective, there was no doubt what Arya was feeling or thinking in that scene. You could tell she was reminiscing about getting Needle from Jon; that it brought back memories of home and family and made her sad and homesick; and that because of the emotional attachment represented by Needle she could not bear to toss it in the water despite Jaqen 2.0’s instruction that if she wanted to become “no one” she had to get rid of “Arya Stark’s things.”
I will admit that after watching that scene, I read the “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue from the books, and felt Maisie Williams did a commendable job portraying, without words, the emotion of that written passage.
Might I have perceived that S5 scene differently if it simply showed Arya hesitating to throw Needle in the water, with an inscrutable expression on her face that left the viewer guessing what was going on in her head? Probably. Still, what reason would there be to deliberately leave the audience wondering what Sansa was thinking when the camera zoomed in on her?
• You wrote “nobody said you [i.e., me] had to watch the after episode”, and then concluded with the caustic commentary: “Sounds like more of let’s find more stuff the blame on D&D the worst writers to ever.”
I assume by “after episode” you were referring to the “Inside the Episode” segment following S6e10.
Why shouldn’t I have watched it that segment, or discussed what the showrunners themselves had to say about the particular scene we’re discussing? If they imputed certain thoughts to Sansa, why shouldn’t the viewers comment on whether or not those thoughts were conveyed by what we saw on the screen?
More important, if you are a member of the Brilliant Brigade and have accepted Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss as your infallible Overlords, how can you fault me for tuning in to hear what they had to say? Aren’t their words the gospel truth – and the best evidence of what they intended to portray on screen? I don’t get it. Are you now contending I should have ignored their explanations because I was not forced to watch the “Inside the Episode” segment? Please clarify.
Finally, I cannot fathom how you made the leap from my observations about what we saw onscreen and what the showrunners said about it, to the conclusion that ”Sounds like more of let’s find more stuff the [sic] blame on D&D the worst writers to ever exist.”
I’m not a D&D basher. I loved the show. You’d surely know that if you’ve followed comments here. However, the slightest critique of any aspect of the show does not automatically make me or anyone else a member of the “Dumb & Dumber No-Talent Hacks” Troll Club.
Why even go there? Nothing I wrote remotely implied that I was impugning the showrunners or their abilities.
Please don’t feel the need to post a rebuttal. I’d suggest we both just … let it go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvEAklsAAts
Okay?
Fireandblood87,
(Attempting Re-Post: Prior attempt at 2:40 pm stuck in Moderation”
——-
You replied to me…
“Different circumstances and nobody said you had to watch the after episode. The whole point is were suppose to be wondering what she is thinking. Two scene that having two totally different context. Sounds like more of let’s find more stuff the blame on D&D the worst writers to ever exist.“
Okay. I think I’ve figured out what you were trying to say to me. (I’ll let Mr. D try to interpret what a “a bunch of wh” means in your reply to him. I’m unfamiliar with the abbreviation “wh.” White House maybe?)
First of all, with reference to Sansa’s facial expressions during the KitN coronation scene in S6e10:
• Your reply to me asserts that “the whole point is were [sic] supposed to be wondering what she is thinking.”
Why do you say that was the point, i.e., that the showrunners’ intent was to leave the audience confused and uncertain? I’ve already commented that the ambiguity of that scene left Sansa’s thoughts open to subjective interpretation, such that some viewers thought she was happy for Jon and proud of him; or that she was concerned for him with LF lurking in the background; or that she was perturbed that she’d been passed over after Lyanna Mormont said she didn’t care that Jon was a bastard and announced “he’s my king, from this day until his last day” – after which the other lords followed suit.
I did not try to shoot down anyone else’s interpretation. I conceded nobody was right and nobody was wrong.
Nevertheless, I am not aware of anything suggesting that the ambiguity was intentional on the part of the showrunners, the director, or the actress. On what basis did you assert that “the whole point” is that we were “supposed to be wondering what [Sansa is] thinking”? I’ll readily accept this was the intent if you can explain how you came to this conclusion.
• Next, you stated: “Two scene that having two totally different context.”
Ummm… The inapt use of the singular and the plural make it difficult for me to understand what you are talking about. Two scene(s)?
I’m going to guess you were referring to my discussion about the varying abilities of actresses using facial expressions alone to convey their characters’ thoughts and emotions, and my
comparison of Sansa/Sophie Turner in the S6e10 scene with Arya/Maisie Williams in the S5 Braavos dock & Needle scene.
If so, what do the different contexts have to do with it? All I said was that from my perspective, there was no doubt what Arya was feeling or thinking in that scene. You could tell she was reminiscing about getting Needle from Jon; that it brought back memories of home and family and made her sad and homesick; and that because of the emotional attachment represented by Needle she could not bear to toss it in the water despite Jaqen 2.0’s instruction that if she wanted to become “no one” she had to get rid of “Arya Stark’s things.”
I will admit that after watching that scene, I read the “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue from the books, and felt Maisie Williams did a commendable job portraying, without words, the emotion of that written passage.
Might I have perceived that S5 scene differently if it simply showed Arya hesitating to throw Needle in the water, with an inscrutable expression on her face that left the viewer guessing what was going on in her head? Probably. Still, what reason would there be to deliberately leave the audience wondering what Sansa was thinking when the camera zoomed in on her?
• You wrote “nobody said you [i.e., me] had to watch the after episode”, and then concluded with the caustic commentary: “Sounds like more of let’s find more stuff the blame on D&D the worst writers to ever.”
I assume by “after episode” you were referring to the “Inside the Episode” segment following S6e10.
Why shouldn’t I have watched it that segment, or discussed what the showrunners themselves had to say about the particular scene we’re discussing? If they imputed certain thoughts to Sansa, why shouldn’t the viewers comment on whether or not those thoughts were conveyed by what we saw on the screen?
More important, if you are a member of the Brilliant Brigade and have accepted Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss as your infallible Overlords, how can you fault me for tuning in to hear what they had to say? Aren’t their words the gospel truth – and the best evidence of what they intended to portray on screen? I don’t get it. Are you now contending I should have ignored their explanations because I was not forced to watch the “Inside the Episode” segment? Please clarify.
Finally, I cannot fathom how you made the leap from my observations about what we saw onscreen and what the showrunners said about it, to the conclusion that ”Sounds like more of let’s find more stuff the [sic] blame on D&D the worst writers to ever exist.”
I’m not a D&D basher. I loved the show. You’d surely know that if you’ve followed comments here. However, the slightest critique of any aspect of the show does not automatically make me or anyone else a member of the “Dumb & Dumber No-Talent Hacks” Troll Club.
Why even go there? Nothing I wrote remotely implied that I was impugning the showrunners or their abilities.
Please don’t feel the need to post a rebuttal. I’d suggest we both just … let it go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvEAklsAAts
Okay?
You may have already seen this “Audi Presents: Behind the Scenes with Maisie Williams” video. I’m posting it again because I felt it was kind of an appropriate epilogue to the S3 interview and S6 episode excerpt I posted – and aligns with your comment that “Maisie is such a treat to watch.” (Her “wonderful eyebrow” are also on full display.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dFSEItcSfw
—
Adrianacandle,
re: Jon as “half brother” (adrianacandle 4/30/20 at 6:27 am comment)
You wrote:
“When Arya objects that Jon is their brother, Sansa proceeds to quickly correct Arya that Jon is their *half*-brother.”
I take it this was in the books?
If so, there may have been a parallel scene on the show, in Season 6, between Arya and the Waif. Let me check…
To be cont….
Yeah, that was from a book passage — and I think I know the show scene you’re talking about! Season 6, Waif train-beats Arya with a stick while interrogating her on her story and Arya states she has a sister and four brothers. Waif knocks her down and Arya revises to one sister, three brothers, and one half-brother. Is that the one?
This was a genuinely honest comment and had no disrespect in it whatsoever. I love tits.
Have a good one.
Adrianacandle,
Precisely! That’s the show scene pseudo-equivalent: Waif & Arya Game of Faces; “A Girl” says Arya Stark had 4 brothers and Waif whacks her – and then she says 3 brothers + a half-brother.
I’ve got a longer comment in the hopper about that S6 Waif scene + the S5 Jaqen 2.0 Game of Faces scene*, but yes, you identified the scene I was thinking of.
*Naturally, my commentary also veered off to discuss The Hound – because both Jaqen 2.0 in S5 and the Waif in S6 (conspicuously) questioned Arya about The Hound, revealing Arya’s “heart in conflict with itself” about him.
Also, from those two scenes I became convinced we had not seen the last of Sandor – nor had Arya.
🐓🐓
Ten Bears,
Yes, there was. I think Arya wanted to keep Jon hiddeen from the waif? or the other way round, she counted him as a brother. Either way, the waif corrected her the hard way.
Will await it! 😀
She sure did T_T I tripped on the overlong hem of my pajama pants on Monday, fell down the (carpeted) stairs, and I think Arya and I share the same injuries from when the Waif would take Arya’s legs out from under her with that stick (unhappy tailbones).
Young Dragon,
Good point. Ned cheating on Cat was something they never cared about. It was something the audience cared about.
Young Dragon,
The show wanted audience to be the accomplice in the biggest crime in the story, to root for Dany until it was too late.
How many times she had to be stopped before doing something horrible until she does it? How many “genocide is bad” talks we had to hear from Jorah, Selmy, Tyrion, Jon, Varys and the rest?
Young Dragon,
True. Some people who are abused in school became mass shooters, Some don’t. We don’t react the same way to trauma. And Dany had dragons. If Arya had dragons she would probably burn KL also after Ned’s death or RW.
How the Game of Thrones Ending Forces the Viewer to Re-contextualize the Entire Story
https://medium.com/@wethrones/how-the-game-of-thrones-ending-forces-the-viewer-to-re-contextualize-the-entire-story-d63bf11cab3e
mau,
The show wanted audience to be the accomplice in the biggest crime in the story, to root for Dany until it was too late.
I believe that’s the root of much of the backlash against how the story ended. D&D, following GRRM, strung the audience along — for the entire length of an epic tale (!) — only to yank the rug out from under (almost) everyone, right at the end, and in the most horrible manner possible. Nobody likes being fooled, and I suspect an audience for high-end television drama likes it far less than most.
We don’t react the same way to trauma. And Dany had dragons. If Arya had dragons she would probably burn KL also after Ned’s death or RW.
In addition to the three reasons Jai gave, I would speculatively add a fourth. It’s lore that a dragon binds with his or her rider. Why should that be a one-way relationship? If the rider binds with her dragon, and a dragon is an intelligent, predatory, brutal creature, then why should that not affect her? Dany had a long relationship with her “child,” Drogon, and maybe some of his inherently destructive nature became part of her personality as well. (I also regard Oleanna Tyrell’s advice as unintentionally pushing her towards ultimately committing atrocity upon King’s Landing.)
How many times she had to be stopped before doing something horrible until she does it? How many “genocide is bad” talks we had to hear from Jorah, Selmy, Tyrion, Jon, Varys and the rest?
Exactly. The tendency was always there, latent, awaiting suitable opportunity to manifest itself. This was shown enough times that the audience lacked a pleasant excuse for not having noticed it. Once all of the external brakes were removed, and Dany was traumatized beyond what she could take, her latent tendency erupted with destructive force. The intertwining of cause and effect in Dany’s downfall is one of the many large reasons I enjoy the story as much as I do.
mau,
If Arya had dragons?
S1e2
Joffrey: “A butcher’s boy who wants to be a knight, eh? Pick up your sword, butcher’s boy. Let’s see how good you are.”
Mycah: “She asked me to, my Lord. She asked me to.”
Joffrey: “I’m your prince, not your lord, and I said pick up your sword.”
Mycah: “It’s not a sword, my prince. It’s only a stick.”
Joffrey: “And you’re not a knight. Only a butcher’s boy. That was my lady’s sister you were hitting, do you know that?”
(Joffrey starts torturing Mycah, drawing blood)
Arya: “Stop it!”
Sansa: “Arya, stay out of this!”
Joffrey: “I won’t hurt him… Much.”
(Arya strikes Joffrey to defend Mycah)
Sansa: “No no, stop it, stop it, both of you. You’re spoiling it…”
Joffrey: “I’ll gut you, you little c*nt!”
Sansa: “Arya!”
(Nymeria starts to run over, but before she can pounce…)
Arya: “Dracarys!”
(Joffrey roasted to a crisp)
Sansa: “You’re spoiling everything!”
(Nymeria wags tail; starts sniffing Roast Joffrey)
Sansa: “My prince, my poor prince. Look what they did to you.”
I don’t think so. Arya did not kill innocents. Only the guilty. And only those deserving of capital punishment under their laws, e.g., for regicide, violation of Guest Right, infanticide, and treason.
In fact, the only one in her kill count who arguably did not deserve execution was … Rorge. Yes, he threatened to “f*ck her bloody” with a stick. He did not follow through on that threat though. While Rorge and his accomplice attacked the Hound in a poorly-planned attempt to collect the bounty on his head, they did not succeed in killing or capturing him. So, in this one instance I’m not so sure Arya was justified in impaling Rorge through the heart with Needle.
(It did however earn a nice quip from Sandor: “You’re learning.” Rorge’s surprise attack happened seconds after Sandor had euthanized the gravely wounded farmer, instructing Arya “where the heart is; that’s how you kill a man.” She took that lesson to heart, so to speak. 🗡👸🏻)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”…Once all of the external brakes were removed, and Dany was traumatized beyond what she could take, her latent tendency erupted with destructive force.”
Yup. Once the “external brakes were removed” it should not have been a surprise what might happen.
We kept hearing over and over, e.g., from Tyrion, how Dany was different from tyrants like Cersei because Dany had advisors “to rein in her worst impulses.” Tyrion himself proved that in S6e9 by dissuading Dany from her “plan” to kill every one of the Masters’ soldiers and “return their cities to the dirt” – including innocent civilians. Previously, Jorah had convinced Dany to pull back from her command to Daario to massacre insurgents, and instead give them a choice [paraphrasing] “to live in our new world or die in their old one.”
Once Barristan was gone, Jorah was gone, Missandei was gone, and Tyrion no longer had her confidence…. I guess there was no counterweight to (the late) Olenna’s advice to “be a dragon.”
Unrestrained, Dany’s “worst impulses” prevailed.
mau,
Thank you for sharing this great article. Finally some one who understood it and that’s exactly the reason why I love the final season. I just started to rewatch the show. I’m currently at season 4 and it’s incredible how obvious everything seems when you know the end.
I hope that GRRM finish his books so that all of these YouTube idiots can realize that they really were the one who didn’t understand anything with their ridiculous theories.
Thanks for posting the link to that article. It was very interesting and well-reasoned. For example, depriving the audience of a “catharsis” wasn’t a bug but a feature of a story that subverted tropes.
Many viewers – myself included – wished that the “endgame” (i.e., Dany’s descent) had been developed over the course of a full-length, ten-episode season rather than the two final episodes. Then again, I really didn’t want the show to end at all: an unrealistic desire. Time and budget constraints, not to mention exhaustion of the cast and crew, required the show to come to an end. (Besides, I can think of so many shows I really liked at the outset, that turned to sh*t when they were artificially extended beyond their “natural lives.”)
One quibble with the article. Discussing the conclusion of Jaime’s story, the author stated:
”One of the writers, Bryan Cogman said- “ I don’t believe in the term ‘redemption arc’. I don’t know what the f*ck it means. Do we have redemption arcs? No, we live our lives. We make mistakes. We take two steps backwards after taking five steps forward. There’s no such f*cking thing as a redemption arc. I don’t believe in it. And I don’t think Jaime is on one, necessarily. Jaime’s just living his life and changing.”
I agree with that insofar as it concerns Jaime. There was no way he “deserved” to wind up as a fully transformed good guy, after all the compromises to he’d made along the way; not to mention his addiction to a toxic relationship with his wicked sister.
I still think Sandor Clegane came closest to a traditional “redemption arc.” He was told – twice – by two priests that it was not too late for him to still help a lot more than he’d harmed. I think he accomplished that – without losing the foul mouth and gruff temperament that made him such an endearing character. 🙂 (Gee whiz…He protected the Princess That Was Promised so she could save the world, and then turned her away from heading down a vengeance trail leading towards a dead-end, enabling her to embrace life instead of death. What more could be expected from a reformed sportkiller?)
Oh, almost forgot. Hot Pie: One-time nasty bully who evolved into a steadfastly loyal, kind-hearted and devoted friend. I still say this one-time coward showed true courage in risking his neck to try to aid his friend Arya when it would’ve been so easy just to keep his mouth shut. (See Hot Pie with Brienne & Pod, S4e7). Sure, Hot Pie provided comic relief. But that scene revealed that he was more than a goofy simpleton.
Adrianacandle,
I’ll try to post that longer comment later. I’m having trouble editing text. If I can’t figure out how to condense it, I apologize in advance for posting a long-winded comment.
One big question I have is why did Cersei’s pregnancy never show?
Ten Bears,
Haters: “They ruined Jaime’s arc; they forgot how to do a redemption arc, yadda”
Theon: “Am I a joke to you?”
–
I disagree about having the contents of the final three episodes stretched out into a full season. That would have been like adding an extra hour to Return of the King and dedicating it to the Scouring of the Shire. No thanks.
The Long Night” is the end of its own slightly-extended ten-episode season, as far as I’m concerned. Just as Summer got 10 episodes, so did Winter. Everything after S8E3 is the epilogue. Like the majority of the last episode of Band of Brothers, when the war in Europe ends and the glorious American heroes liberating Europe become an occupying force and it comes to light that some of these soldiers are real pieces of shit.
Tough period for me but I have been scanning the discussion – and see the usual suspects arguing that GOT worked.
I am tempted to post the reviews from some of the better television/entertainment critics that explained over and over why GOT was not a creative triumph. Last year, reputable culture pages (at NYT, BBC, New Yorker, LA Times, Washington Post, Globe and Mail, and many others) explained why from various angles. I vaguely remember a title from the NYT (which has outstanding arts coverage) “GOT comes in for a crash landing”. This title basically captures what happened.
But I do not think it will make any difference at all to the crowd here.
GOT could have been great but the writers lost their way. It was not great..it was a “whiff”.
This particular end would need a reworking of the story from maybe season 5 OR more episodes to build the story out.
An end that recontextualized the story requires very skillful storytelling – they did not pull it off.
It was brilliantly produced. The writing was the weakness. Perhaps they tried to be too clever – did not work.
It was not great.
Ten Bears,
Many viewers – myself included – wished that the “endgame” (i.e., Dany’s descent) had been developed over the course of a full-length, ten-episode season rather than the two final episodes. Then again, I really didn’t want the show to end at all: an unrealistic desire.
I sympathize, in part because, like Jenny, we never wanted to leave, but I do understand how other viewers thought Dany’s downfall came pell-mell in just a few episodes. That’s not really what happened, though. As the article Mau kindly cited explains,
Her story throughout the show is not only a show of a person gaining power, but a story of a character going through trauma. Looking back at earlier events and the many times the world wronged her makes it easier to see how it all accumulates in the events on the final season until she finally “loses it”.
Dany getting abused and ‘abandoned,’ usually by men, is the leitmotif of her arc:
— Viserys;
— Drogo (who “abandons” her by sickening and declining to the point where she finishes him);
— Xaro’s attempted theft of her dragons;
— Jorah’s spying;
— Barristan’s death;
… aaaannd that’s all before the end of Season 5. (She also makes the mistake of leaving Daario in Meereen at the end of Season 6.)
D&D always advanced the story rapidly, but it felt slower when there were many more characters and storylines unfolding. As the surviving characters and their stories converged on Winterfell and King’s Landing for the finale, everything felt faster.
(Also, we cripple ourselves by using the word “arc”; an arc, by definition, bends in only one direction. “Dramatic curve” might provide a better metaphor.)
Mango,
Question: just how long do you think D&D have known the ending of this story – the broad strokes and major beats, at least?
Farimer123,
Huh? I didn’t say, and I do not think, that they “ruined Jaime’s arc.”
To the contrary, I thought it was a faithful portrayal of a guy stuck in a toxic relationship. Like with any addiction, relapse is expected if not inevitable, notwithstanding one’s best efforts to get clean and stay clean. To mix metaphors, despite one’s desire to embrace his better angels, the allure of the devil on the other shoulder proves too powerful to resist. Besides, it’s easier to condemn oneself as “hateful” or loathsome than it is to make the effort to meet lofty aspirations.
(So said Ten Bears tonight as he lost the willpower to stay on a strict diet of steamed vegetables and tofu, and slammed down a whole pizza instead.)
Take your time and I’m the lsat person you have to apologize about a long comment. My own posts haven’t exactly been short (and I sometimes need to split them up) and in this thread too, I’ve made some lengthy ones. I think this is the most frustrating and challenging problems of writing: how to efficiently convey and express ideas and thoughts while effectively explaining them. Although, I think you’re pretty good at that, Ten Bears.
Farimer123,
Oh wait. I’m sorry. I guess your point was that I did not mention Theon’s “redemption” arc.
Yeah, you’re right. The thing is, with GoT, none of the “reformed” villains ever really escape their sins and get to live happily ever after as a hero.
They’re all doomed. (I’d quote Brother Ray’s sermon that sins can never really be washed away; the best one can do is try to use whatever time he has left to do some good. Or something like that.)
As for Theon in particular, I thought his most poignant line was when Sansa told him all of his sins would be forgiven if he took the black. Theon replied that he did not want to be forgiven; he could never atone for his transgressions against the Starks. Jon told Theon something like whatever was in his power to forgive, he forgave. Sansa accepted Theon back into the fold. Bran assured Theon he was “a good man” right before his kamikaze charge against NK.
Did Theon achieve “redemption”? I’m not sure if Theon himself thought that was possible. Giving his life defending the home and family he’d betrayed was the best he could do.
(*Looks for dictionary to find definition of “redemption”*)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
In some of those cases, abuse certainly applies but I don’t think abuse and ‘abandonment’ applies to all these cases. However, I think that Dany is let down in some way in all of these instances (with the understanding that ‘let down’ is way too gentle a term for her situations with Viserys and Drogo) and I think she does feel betrayed. Viserys and Drogo both abused Dany but their departure from her life is due to untimely deaths — they didn’t leave by choice (although, Viserys was planning on stealing the dragon eggs and leaving so he might fit). However, you do use quotation marks around the world ‘abandonment’ 🙂
With Xaro, (Irri), and Jorah, I think that is betrayal rather than abuse and abandonment. With Barristan on the show, he was unexpectedly killed. I don’t think he abused or abandoned her but his death did devastate Dany.
Although, if I’m missing something, do correct!
But it made me think of some of the similarities this has to Sansa’s story (disclaimer:, I’m not saying Dany experiencing similar things to Sansa means Sansa should have gone berserk on a city too. This isn’t intended to judge whether or not I felt the Burning of KL was earned of not, I’ve spoken on that before but that won’t be a battle I pick today! ;D This is just pointing out similarities):
A theme in Sansa’s story has to do with those she trusts/depends on letting her down/betraying her and this is what has happened with that in both regard to the show (up to season 5) and the books (as of Sansa’s last chapter in AFFC):
a) Ned’s investigation and findings prompt him to reveal he knows the truth to Cersei (in order to give her a chance to flee) before publicly acting against, leading to his arrest and execution. As a result, Sansa becomes a hostage at the mercy of enemies, tormented.
b) Robb fails to rescue Sansa, choosing the North’s leverage to get their demands met via hosting Jaime hostage over trading Jaime for Sansa. Sansa is punished for the actions of Robb.
c) Joffrey and to a limited extent, Loras. She idealizes them, as she did her father and brother to an extent, but neither turn out to be who she wants them to be. Joffrey is a monster and Loras doesn’t really have any true interest in her.
d) The knight, Sandor, who does act to protect Sansa becomes an object of idealization for Sansa. However, he also ends up leaving her.
e) She becomes dependent on Littlefinger, who (in the books) she currently believes has her best interests at heart but LF likewise has some gross purposes for her (he is attracted to this 11-13 year old girl) and wants to use her as a pawn.
(Show only: this also all occurred before the ends of season 5 and makes the mistake of agreeing to Littlefinger’s proposal of marrying Ramsay in season 6, keeping him around in season 7).
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for understanding. As I described it above, my in-progress commentary about Arya including Jon as a full-fledged brother during her narrative to the Waif also veered off to discuss The Hound – because both Jaqen 2.0 in S5 and the Waif in S6 (conspicuously) questioned Arya about The Hound, revealing Arya’s “heart in conflict with itself” about him”, etc.
The problem, if it can be called that, is that I thought these scenes were an example of effective storytelling by the showrunners and I wanted to explain why I felt that way. I also thought these scenes constituted a perfect springboard to the continuation and culmination of the Arya – Sandor story in S8. I wanted to explain why I thought this too.
Every time I tried to articulate my reasons, I kept going off on new tangents. Since the headline of the posted article is “I Miss Game of Thrones. But Why?” I figured it was the appropriate place to highlight a storyline that (I believe) was successfully set up and concluded. Trying to explain why – succinctly – is proving to be a challenge.
Maybe I ought to go to sleep and try again in the morning.
Adrianacandle,
*Caveats to my post!
d) The knight, Sandor, who does act to protect Sansa becomes an object of idealization for Sansa. However, he also ends up leaving her.
Sansa’s romanticization of her interactions with Sandor are a book-only thing, I don’t think this was demonstrated in the show.
Typo, adding additional thoughts!
*(Show only: this also all occurred before the ends of season 5 and *she makes the mistake of agreeing to Littlefinger’s proposal of marrying Ramsay in season 6, keeping him around in season 7 before *she discovers another one of his betrayals when she learns LF has been intentionally pitting her against Arya as LF did with Catelyn and Lysa).
I’m certainly interested in your thoughts and I like where you’re going! But there’s no rush — I still haven’t replied to Tron from a month or so ago about my thoughts re: religion and HDM. I’m having some of the same challenges (articulating my thoughts) and I’m also trying to figure out what my thoughts are since I struggle with more in-depth discussions in relation to religion and I’m not nearly so knowledgeable on these subjects as Tron. Also, kind of like you referenced yourself, the more the ball rolls around in my head, the more those thoughts branch out into other thoughts — like a tree roots connecting to other tree roots.
It’s super frustrating. But please take your time! Sometimes, I find the wording can just come to me when I land back on that topic while contemplating another :/ Then, when it does, always feel free to introduce the topic with me 🙂 It’s still on-topic if it’s GoT/ASOIAF 😉
Like r/showerthoughts!
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
To be more precise, I would have preferred that Dany’s descent had been developed over a full-length ten-episode season so there would have been more time and more scenes devoted to other storylines. As I’ve said, the harbingers of Dany’s descent were pretty obvious to me, e.g., the S7e5 Tarly BBQ and her S6e9 “plan” to annihilate the Masters’ armies and their cities before Tyrion convinced her to to go with a shock and awe plan involving only one flame-broiled ship.
Everybody wanted more GoT. That’s not a bad thing. Personally, I would’ve enjoyed an entire ten-episode season devoted to Sandor & Arya’s ride south from WF to KL after they rode off together in S8e4.
Oh well. All good things must come to an end. Or, as Robert Frost wrote: “Nothing gold can stay.”
Adrianacandle,
”d) The knight, Sandor, who does act to protect Sansa becomes an object of idealization for Sansa. However, he also ends up leaving her.”
Wait. Did Sandor leave her? I thought she turned down his offer to keep her safe and take her home. She chose to stay put and take her chances on a Stannis victory as I recall.
At that juncture Sandor had already burned his bridges with his “F*ck the Kingsguard, f*ck the city, f*ck the king” farewell declaration to Joffrey and Tyrion. Staying around and waiting for Sansa to maybe change her mind was not an option.
I thought he even reminded Sansa in S8e4 that she would’ve avoided all the Joffrey, LF and Ramsay sh*tshows had she gone with him.
Am I mistaken?
You’re right! I’m sorry, my phrasing and framing was off. I didn’t mean Sandor abandoned or betrayed Sansa in any way. He left her life at this point but you’re right, Sandor did offer to take Sansa with him but Sansa refused. My focus was just on that Sandor left her but maybe this is similar to Viserys’s, Drogon’s and Barristan’s deaths being framed as leaving Dany. They do leave Dany’s life but it’s not an abandonment.
Like with my framing, Ned didn’t abandon Sansa (or Arya), he was executed — but I think Ned didn’t consider things through with his decisions enough in KL, unwittingly creating a bad situation which left Sansa and Arya both in dire straits.
Adrianacandle,
*dire straights
Ten Bears,
I should add that I was more thinking of how Sansa misses the Hound and wishes he were still with her (but I don’t recall this being a thing on the show so this could be a book-only feature) yet he’s no longer in her life. Sort of like how Dany misses Drogo (except Sandor didn’t abuse Sansa and they never had an intimate relationship, Sansa imagines she and Sandor kissed) and in the show, Barristan. What Drogo, Barristan, and Sandor did was not abandonment, only that they departed these characters’ lives for various reasons when these characters wished these people were still with them. Sandor abandoned the Kingsguard, but not Sansa specifically since he offered to take her with him.
Sorry again for the faulty framing 🙁
(I should also add that in AFFC, Sansa starts having doubts about LF’s intents and struggles with trying to figure out what he wants with her, going back and forth).
Adrianacandle,
Question (books vs. show?)
About Sansa & LF, you wrote:
”e) She becomes dependent on Littlefinger, who (in the books) she currently believes has her best interests at heart but LF likewise has some gross purposes for her (he is attracted to this 11-13 year old girl) and wants to use her as a pawn.”
On the show at least, Sansa knew before the end of Season 4 that LF:
– Murdered Dontos
– Framed her (and Tyrion) for Joffrey’s poisoning
– Murdered Aunt Lysa
– Murdered Jon Arryn (assuming Sansa was paying attention when Lysa blurted it out)
– ??? *
I didn’t sense that show! Sansa believed LF had her best interests at heart. Did the books diverge from the show on Sansa’s knowledge of LF’s skeeviness? On the show, I got the impression she knew he was dangerous and was only out for himself, but for whatever reason didn’t expose him when she had the chance, and stayed with him because … (I don’t know why).
* I won’t get into the LF-concocted Bolton marriage fiasco. That show-only divergence – and Sansa’s assent to LF’s cockamamie plan – were hard to swallow. After inducing Sansa to marry into the family that murdered hers, and then leaving her defenseless in WF, I don’t see how she could still believe LF had her best interests at heart – and that’s discounting his supposed ignorance that Ramsay was a psycho.
Adrianacandle,
“ Like with my framing, Ned didn’t abandon Sansa (or Arya), he was executed — but I think Ned didn’t consider things through with his decisions enough in KL, unwittingly creating a bad situation which left Sansa and Arya both in dire straights.”
Interesting. I kind of felt that Ned did abandon his daughters by failing to make sure they were far away and safe and sound before the sh*t hit the fan, i.e., before he alerted Cersei he knew her kids were incest bastards and warned her to leave town because he was going to rat her out to Robert. It was as if Ned cared more about Cersei’s kids than his own.
I’d say he abandoned his daughters. He left them both alone and defenseless, trapped in the enemy’s compound – a “hornets’ nest” I think he called it. He’d expressly told Arya “we’ve come to a dangerous place” upon their arrival in KL. Yet he made no arrangements for their safety.
What was he thinking ???
You’re right again. I don’t think I phrased that right (though I don’t think Sansa knew about Jon Arryn yet? She doesn’t seem to know about that until she consults Bran in 7×07).
At the same time, per 7×07, Sansa tells Arya that she thinks LF loved her in his own way. But now that you say it, I am confused over how far Sansa’s trust extended to LF in season 4. LF tells Sansa his entire Lannister plot in 4×04, Sansa admits it is unwise to trust him. But then, Sansa covers for LF with Lysa’s death, she agrees to the Bolton marriage plot in season 5. In season 6, during Inside the Episode 6×05 when Sansa lies to Jon about where she got her Uncle Blackfish info from, D&D say LF still has a hold on Sansa.
In 6×10, LF reveals his King Self/Queen Sansa grand plan. Sansa tells Jon that LF sold her to the Boltons in 6×10 and says anybody would be a fool to trust LF — but seems to trust at least some of LF’s council in season 7 (re:Arya).
As for the books, yes! I had made an amendment to my original statment in my May 2/3:03 am post. Sansa does have her doubts about LF in book 4 but is struggling:
I think that’s the problem — Ned wasn’t thinking enough. Or at least, was not considering the fall-out to the extent he needed to or what could go wrong because he entirely misjudged the situation.
Yet, before Ned realizes the truth about Cersei’s kids and tells Cersei that he knows, he told Sansa and Arya they were going back to Winterfell and was in the midst of those preparations. I remember that he sensed the situation in KL worsening, fearing it would come to war. I believe it’s Sansa’s comment (“a golden lion”, “[Joffrey’s] nothing like that old drunk king”) from her protest to Ned’s announcement that they were going home which triggered Ned’s Visual DNA analysis. Then he confronts Cersei.
At the same time, Ned should have ensured his kids were well out of the city by this point.
I think Ned misjudged what Cersei would do. I think he thought she’d up and leave with her kids now that somebody knew the truth about them, transparent in their intentions that they would tell Robert. I don’t think he expected Cersei to stay and risk her kids now that her secret was known by somebody else. Ned put his trust in that, a piece of paper (Robert’s will naming him as regent), and Littlefinger — all of which betrayed him.
(Also, a sincere thank-you for including the correction to my ‘dire straights’ misspelling when quoting my post! Thank-you!!! 💖💖💖)
Adrianacandle,
Oh, that sounds painful! I hate falling down the stairs and luckily enough I have no experiences of that after I turned 7. I hate falling for whatever reason. It’s not only risky and dangerous; my falling only exists to the amusement of others, because of my height. Once I was struggling to get back on my feet, trying to realize if I had anything broken, and one of the comments was “it was like tower disappearing” and everyone was laughing. (plus I was wearing a red coat; how rediculous can that be?)
However, because of the same reason, once I tended to fall very often, twisting an ankle and causing other minor injuries. At some point I decided that, alright, I have to watch my step. Ever since I keep bumping onto things without even paying any attention and then I discover bruises on me; most of the times I don’t know where they came from. 🙄
I hate it, hate it, hate it!
I’m so sorry this happened to you after you fell. Falling is bad enough, it’s such a shock and can be very painful, but experiencing everyone laughing at you as a result… that’s heartbreaking to me. How people can be so mean instead of asking if you are okay and trying to help you back up. That’s not alright.
I also discover mysterious bruises but all over my legs! I never know where they are from either! I don’t remember bumping into things but there there they are — all big and ugly and purple (sometimes green if they’re on their way out!)
Maybe we sleep-fight? 🙂 I am a sleep-talker 🙁
Most of my falls haven’t been down the stairs but one of my more ridiculous falls was when I didn’t want to get out of my bed so I tried reaching for my phone charger but it was just out of my grasp. Ironically, my laziness insisted I could do it — I don’t have to get up to get my phone charger — but that’s when I completely fell off my bed, somersaulting right onto my neck twice.
Ten Bears,
Who is guilty and who is innocent is always a complicated qestion. Those people were happy that Ned was killed. Arya would kill them all. People don’t act rationally during trauma.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
True. That’s the root of controversy. There is no turn in Dany. She just does what she always wanted to do but now no one can stop her.
The story forced you to root for a tyrant. Her whole cause is nonsensecal. There is no reason for her to even come to Westeros. She already had an army, kingdom, her people, chance to build a better world. She brought war to Westeros for no reason at all, except her ego and entitlement. No one wanted her to “save” them.
Adrianacandle,
”At the same time, Ned should have ensured his kids were well out of the city by this point.“
Ned and NK were like two peas in a pod. They both should have known better than to put themselves or their immediate dependents in the zone of danger, no matter how under control the situation seemed. NK and all of his WW lieutenants got pulverized all because NK thought those silly humans had been vanquished, and he could just mosey on over to whack a kid in a wheelchair.
Considering that an errant DG tipped arrow or one lucky thrust of a VS weapon could destroy his entire army, why did NK think it was a good idea to go showboating in the godswood? Any one of his wights or WW lieutenants could have taken out Bran. (NK disappointed me. From his stellar track record against his adversaries I thought he was the Sun Tzu of GoT.)
Like NK, Ned should have known that even the most carefully formulated plans can’t account for unexpected or unknown contingencies. There’s no telling what can happen in the heat of battle or fog of war. A prudent parent and competent commander would have kept his most precious, most vulnerable assets far away from the front lines.*
Sorry. Ned’s failure to make sure his kids were far away from KL or preferably back in WF before spilling the beans and giving Cersei an ultimatum was inexcusable.
Plus, how could he not foresee that threatening another parent’s kids might put his own kids in peril? He already knew Cersei was no shrinking violet. He’d already seen that she was a vindictive, lying shrew. (Gee whiz, when she told him “when you play the game of thrones you win or you die,” he should’ve known not to f*ck around with her – or her claim to the throne through her wicked son. And Arya had warned him that Joffrey and Cersei were bad news!)
*(Hey…maybe there’s some truth to that books! legend that the “Night’s King” was a Stark.)
”Ned put his trust in that, a piece of paper (Robert’s will naming him as regent), and Littlefinger — all of which betrayed him.”
I gotta say, the “honorable” Ned Stark ceded the moral high ground when he forged Robert’s will (changed the wording from “Joffrey” to “heir” I think, while transcribing Robert’s deathbed statements). Ned didn’t have the balls to tell his dying friend the unpleasant truth? So he deceived him instead? Some friend.
Kind of serves him right that Cersei ripped it up…
– End Ned-Bashing. Time for Bed. –
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
When people say that they wanted it to be “developed” more thay are basically saying that they don’t want to feel like fools for supporting her. They want excuse, rationalization.
But the story wanted to fool you.
I know many examples in real life politics, when people make excuses for very dangerous rhetoric, saying it’s just populism to gain votes, that their candidate is not really meaning those things. And they always end up as fools. Only in real life you can’t blame the writers lol
Maf Queen Dany has been given LOTS of time. There’s a reason why it’s been a top theory for years. She’s had two or three times a season since season 3 or 4 where someone has had to convince her that slaughtering everyone who disagrees with her isn’t the best move. How many times does a “genocide is bad” conversation need to occur to adequately set up that someone might be a little insane?
Ten Bears,
I believe Cersei had said, “When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die,” when Ned confronted her, not prior. This was after Ned had already ordered Sansa and Arya back home. Ned had begun the process for returning to Winterfell a little while before discovering via Visual DNA that Cersei’s kids were not Robert’s kids. However, because he didn’t know Cersei, I think Ned should have put off confronting Cersei until Sansa and Arya were in Winterfell or at least the North.
I think Ned may have been counting on Cersei fearing Robert enough to pick up her kids and get out.
I understand this was about Ned not wanting to cause Robert pain right before he died with the truth that his kids weren’t really his. I recall Ned nearly tells Robert the truth about Joffrey in the books but thinks, “[I] cannot hurt him more,” and he feels “soiled” by the deceit but sees the agony on Robert’s face.
I’ll pull up the passage if you like! I’m currently on my phone in the basement trying to fix my poor varnishing job, no access to my e-books 🙁
When I had written my original post, I realized I was potentially kicking a hornet’s nest considering the conversation about Ned’s failures in KL a few months ago 🙂
P.S. If anybody here has any expertise on varnishing and woodworking, I’m using a water-based poly on padauk wood but though I leave it for several days and it is dry to the touch, it gets a bit sticky again when I sand and hold it (and dust starts sticking to it). Is there anything I can do? 🙁
Adrianacandle,
Situations like that put you in a difficult position. The problem isn’t that they are laughing, but that you want to cry and you can’t -since they are laughing- and that you hurt and rather need some comfort and reassurement, not amusement. It’s a rather embarrassing situation.
But it’s ok, I’m over it, and I think I haven’t fell again since. Even though for keeping myself from falling I always bring that incident to mind, thinking that I don’t want to go through that situation ever again in my life -come to think of it, it must have been rather traumatic if my reaction is such, I don’t remember any other of my falls, just this one.
A friend of mine told me some years ago “oh, don’t worry, it’s nothing important, just that tall people never look down”. I think that is true, too. At least it explains the bruises. (but my skin is very sensitive too, it’s very white, so everything shows)
I found this on the internet. It wasn’t what I intended, but it will do.
https://shadowandmovies.com/how-to-write-a-redemption-arc-theon-greyjoy-game-of-thrones/
And this, with examples for anyone who’s interested.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedemptionQuest
Efi,
This is heartbreaking to hear, I’m very sorry. And thank-you for explaining to me why this situation is difficult because I think it’s very hard to know this until you’ve experienced it.
Yes, I think that would be very traumatic (to me too) and I am so sorry it happened to you.
Sometimes, I believe these experiences have a greater impact than we initially realize. I think, in a way, it creates a fear. In grade 5, I became one of the popular girls (I later learned it was because since my dad is a computer scientist, he had a lot of equipment that he let my friends and I use like new computers, colour printers, photocopiers, a Wacom tablet, etc.). But then, out of the blue one day, I was shunned in this organized display. Over recess, S, N, A, M, and D huddled in a corner and brought over each girl one by one until I was alone. Then A consulted with the girls, walked up to me and said, ‘Did you know everyone hates you?’ ‘Your body is like an insect,’ (I was very very thin in not the cutest way) ‘We never really liked you,’ while the other girls watched and laughed.
And, uh, it continued from there! (No bad high school or jr high stuff though, just this elementary school incident! My high school was great!)
And this happened twice in the same year with the same girls because something is wrong with my brain, I swear (I did think there were two Africas at one point). However, I remember when this was going on, wishing something would put me in the hospital because school had become a living hell in which these girls would make my life miserable through some very creative and very passive-aggressive Mean Girl ways. Oh, the rumors they spread. What’s worse is that my mum was friends with their mums so I had to see them on week-ends when we were doing community events, school fundraisers, bizarres, etc. and at swimming and at church T__T
Anyway, that has always always stayed with me. Even now, I have that teeny tiny bit of suspicion and 1.2% part of me is almost expecting for that to happen again. And stupid me had this happen twice with the same girls in grade 5.
So yeah! I think even seemingly little things to others can last a lifetime and be really huge to us.
mau,
“…There is no reason for her to even come to Westeros. She already had an army, kingdom, her people, chance to build a better world. She brought war to Westeros for no reason at all, except her ego and entitlement. No one wanted her to “save” them.”
Yeah, I didn’t quite understand why she’d expect her armies to be welcomed with open arms.
I forget which character said it (Barristan? Jorah?) – something like the people just want a summer that lasts forever.
The people of KL weren’t rioting in the streets. The lords weren’t screaming for Cersei’s head on a spike. There were no slaves for the Breaker of Chains to free from bondage. I did not notice a groundswell of grassroots support for the “Targaryen Restoration” that Varys and his buddy Illyrio had been yapping about.
And what was Dany’s “humane” plan to topple Cersei? A siege of KL that would cause mass starvation and disease? Uh, no thanks. Go “save” someone somewhere else.
Most of all, especially after the War of the Five Kings, the last thing the “common folk” would want is another war – “someone else’s war” for their sons and fathers to die in. For what? (Sure, Joffrey was a sh*t king and Cersei was a sh*t queen, and goons like Polliver were preying on civilians. Even so, an all-out war against an army of foreign invaders would not be an enticing alternative.)
I ask this without sarcasm: Aside from nifty slogans like “Breaking the Wheel” and “Building a Better World,” how exactly was Dany proposing to improve the everyday lives of the common folk? What was she promising them that would make it worth their while to risk their lives to back her invasion?
You’re right: there was her “ego and entitlement“ to quench. But what would her potential subjects get out of it? Her “good heart”? Free-range dragons? Restless Dothrakis galloping through their neighborhoods in search of a little raping and pillaging on the side?
There had to be an upside.
Did I miss something?
Adrianacandle,
“I believe Cersei had said, “When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die,” when Ned confronted her, not prior. This was after Ned had already ordered Sansa and Arya back home.”
You’re right. I realized that after the Edit window had closed.
Still, although Ned had already ordered his daughters to be sent home, he confronted Cersei before their scheduled departure. They had not left yet when the sh*t hit the fan. His #1 priority should’ve been to get his daughters to safety.
I can’t understand why he was still dawdling around even after Cersei’s “you win or you die” comment.
Did the books explain why?
(I know that in the books. unlike the show, Sansa divulged the departure plans to Cersei because she wanted to say goodbye to Joffrey or something. Didn’t Ned swear her to secrecy? Oh wait…)
I was supposed to end my Ned-bashing and go to sleep. 😕
————-
Deleted scene:
Bernadette to Cersei: “It’s probably just a food baby. Did you have a really big lunch?”
at 0:40 to 0:51
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAvpcjbEdQU
——
I compiled the list of events from the books which after Ned confronts Cersei and before he is arrested:
-Ned’s chapter with the confrontation ends when Cersei leaves. In his next chapter, Ned has R+L=J foreshadowing dream, indicating this is (at minimum) the next day.
-Ned is summoned to Robert’s chambers when he wakes up. He discovers Robert is fatally injured. Robert/Ned scene.
-Ned makes a deal with Littlefinger to get the City Watch for fear that Cersei’s men will overwhelm and defeat his own household guard when Ned decides to push for Stannis as heir.
-The next morning, Ned wonders why Cersei still has not fled after he gave her “chance after chance.”
-Ned tells Sansa and Arya they must be ready to leave by midday.
-Ned reflects that he has made the Tower of the Hand as secure as possible. Calls for the members of the small council to meet in his solar so they can witness the unsealing of Robert’s will. Barristan, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Varys meet. Ned wants to wait for Renly. Varys tells Ned Renly has left.
-Barristan unseals letter, reads contents that Ned will be named Protector of the Realm until Robert’s heir comes of age. Ned reflects he is of age (Stannis). Ned decides to keep this to himself until Sansa and Arya are back in Winterfell and Stannis is in KL.
-Joffrey demands the small council in his throne room.
-Ned believes Littlefinger kept his word as the City Watch are all present in the throne room.
-When Joffrey commands that the council make arrangements for his coronation, as he wishes to be crowned within a fortnight (two weeks?). He wants to accept oaths of fealty from the council then.
-Ned gives Robert’s letter to Cersei, rips it in half (shocking Barristan! XD), demands Ned bend the knee to Joffrey and they will allow Ned to return to Winterfell.
-Ned reflects that if Cersei needs to force the issue now, she left him “no choice.” He pushes Stannis’s claim, saying Joffrey is not Robert’s heir.
-Cersei demands Barristan to seize Ned. Barristan hesitates. Barristan is surrounded by Stark guards.
-Ned calls upon Janos and the City Watch and we know how that went down.
From the looks of it, it seems like things happened pretty fast (two days? But my timeline may be off) and he was trying to get Arya and Sansa out ASAP. I think Ned’s biggest mistake was pressing the issue of Stannis’s claim when Joffrey demands oaths of fealty from the small council. If Ned and the others pressed Stannis’s clam after taking the oaths, they’d be oathbreakers, so Ned presses it then.
I hope your eyes are sleeping now! But I wonder if I should temporarily stop replying because continuing on while you are trying to get to bed must not be helping XD;;
Adrianacandle,
I am sorry this happened to you, Adriana. My experience does not compare to yours.
Kids in my country used to be very naive when I was growing up and such reactions were not common. Of course there were kids in class that no one befriended, but even now I don’t think that anyone had that reaction your friends had for no apparent reason. But I am probably wrong because then my perception of the world was equally naive. Someone in my class must have experienced the same thing, simply because kids are cruel, they don’t understand what they’re saying and they don’t understand its effect on other kids.
But here it’s the parents who are sly and competitive and prejudiced. I experienced that to my bones when my parents broke up. You can face children when you’re a child, you can face your friends, but you can’t face adults.
Correction on this too. This wasn’t for when Ned decides to push Stannis’s claim but in anticipation of Cersei’s possible retaliation:
Efi,
I seldom wear high heels because if there is a hole in the pavement (sidewalk) and I am wearing high heels I will put my heel in the hole and take a tumble.
The rest of this comment is more general and not addressing what Efi said. In the dark murky politics of Westeros I was glad that Ned kept his integrity but sad that his life ended as it did. There are so many morally compromised characters in AGoT/ASOIAF that I at least was pleased that there was a sprinkling of decent characters in the story.
I felt sympathy with Dany early in the story and I never hated her. We’ve always known she had a temper. I didn’t foresee her going full metal when Kings Landing was attacked. I’ve sometimes said that I didn’t think GRRM subverts tropes half as much as it’s claimed he does but I have to give him credit that he did surprise me there. (I know he didn’t write season 6 but he had outlined the ending).
Efi,
Thank-you for your sympathy, Efi! I think that trauma is still trauma, we only have the scope of our experiences to go off of and I feel yours is definitely very awful, very cruel, and something I’d have significant trouble with. I don’t think anyone else’s experiences can ever make our own hurt less, it’s still important and very impactful 🙁
Like my friend whose dad died. I feel bad for being sad all the time when my parents are still alive but when I told her this, she’s the one who told me that somebody else’s terrible experiences don’t make our own any less terrible.
Unfortunately, Mean Girls culture is not uncommon here. It can begin around grade 3/4 (ages 8 and 9). From my limited experiences with kids and teaching kids, they realize — to extent — that they are being cruel but I’ve never delved into the reasons exactly why. Still, I don’t think they realize nearly the impact their cruelty has.
When I was being bullied, I had a friend, C, in another class who was going through the same thing. She suddenly died one night from a seizure just before Easter (epilepsy). But one of the girls bullying her was wracked with guilt. There was this song we sang at C’s funeral and whenever we sang this song in choir, the girl would break down and need to be taken out of the classroom.
Thinking about it, I wonder if part of the reason for this is pack mentality. Another part may be the idea that exclusion gives them more power (the idea that there’s something special about being part of a group if not everybody is on the inside). But I think the big draws are popularity and fitting in. To the leaders, not everyone can be popular so there are those who must be ousted.
However, I haven’t researched much into it. Kids can be cruel and sometimes in the same way adults can be. Still!! Those girls and I were fine when grade 6 came along, which is strange in hindsight, but sometimes it happens that way. It is strange. I should maybe look into some of the reasons why.
I’m sorry for that too 🙁 Yes, adults can be that way and here as well. It sometimes feels like this stuff never ends — the cliques, the passive-aggressiveness, the exclusion. When I did my teaching degree, this was a problem there too.
Ten Bears,
Ned was a fool, and that’s the end of it.
Ned forgot that conspiring in the first place -i.e. trying to find out the truth about Jon Arryn’s death, turning against a queen and the heir apparent- does not involve honesty.
It’s dishonest by itself, it is a crime by itself no matter what he thought was right or wrong. Cersei was a queen; Joffrey was the heir apparent. Conspiracy against them is a crime against the crown.
So truthfulness and giving others (: Cersei) a chance doesn’t cut it in such a situation. He wanted to get rid of Cersei, he shouldn’t have warned her in advance.
Also, Ned wanted to make Stannis king, to which others reacted (I think Varys, too). You can’t make a king who will have no support inside the court itself. Therefore Renly left, LF turned against him, and the others were in for the gain.
The alternative would be to become himself king -I think Renly proposed it to him- which he should have accepted. This was the second time he came so close to becoming king himself, and the second time he refused. There would be no third time. He didn’t have time to make someone else a king, since that person was away.
In the end, what comes out of the whole story very vividly is that Ned was deceived in believing that he’d have the support of others in doing what he wanted. His proposed solution was not to the liking of LF, Renly, Varys.
He also underestimated Cersei. He did that even though he had a red flag -the incident at the Trident. This showed how cruel Cersei was, insisting that an innocent should be punished. She insisted that Ned and his children both -through their implication in the Micah incident- be humiliated by being punished, by losing someone dear (Sansa’s wolf) for absolutely no reason, just because she could, and because Robert didn’t care enough.
No! You were right the first time. It’s “dire straits” (like the band).
Strait and straight are two different words. Strait means narrow, tight, difficult. As an adjective it’s not in common use now, but strait or straits means a narrow sea passage (eg Strait(s) of Gibraltar).
And of course dire straits meaning a difficult situation, being in a “tight spot”.
This may be a show to book difference. In the books, when Ned assembles the small council, he does not reveal the truth about Joffrey or his intentions to name Stannis as Robert’s heir. It seems he does not intend to do that until Arya and Sansa are away and Stannis has returned:
When Joffrey calls the small council to the throne room to swear their fealty, it was then Ned openly acts on the information — which I think was the biggest mistake before ensuring Sansa and Arya were well away from the city and Lannister forces.
With Renly, it’s true that Renly warns Ned in the show about Cersei and urges Ned to take on the title of Protector of the Realm. However, it doesn’t happen quite this way in the books, it seems. Ned deals only with Littlefinger in the show adaptation of the events following Robert’s will:
The show:
Then Renly doesn’t show up for the small council meeting the next day. Varys tells Ned that Renly had left the city and Ned reflects that he had counted on Renly’s support.
Grandmaester Flash,
Thanks for that information, Grandmaester Flash! I’ll remember that for next time!
Adrianacandle,
Typo!
*Ned deals only with Littlefinger in the *book’s events following Robert’s will.
*Then, in the books, Renly doesn’t show up for the small council meeting the next day. Varys tells Ned that Renly had left the city and Ned reflects that he had counted on Renly’s support.
I’m really sucking with the typos/phrasing this morning -_-
This feels like a deja vue for a millionth time and I won’t make it a rant.
I don’t know where BC got his idea about “no redemption arc” since he is a writer himself. He knows the tropes and he knows how redemption works in-universe, he can put it on paper and this will translate on screen.
We know that there are no redemption arcs in real life, we don’t need the TV to tell us. That’s why stories, while drawing from reality diverge from it, too. Most of the people watching TV, or the movies, or read a book for that matter want the divergence. We don’t need them to remind us how bleak reality is too, because reality is all around. You just have to open your eyes and see it.
And with all due respect to NCW, if anyone says that D&D were not devoted to GoT they’re idiots. But this statement of Nicolai is meant to throw back those who lashed out against D&D and the show, not exactly *justifying* what we saw on screen.
It was Nicolai himself who argued that Jamie shouldn’t return to Cersei after Riverrun in the first place. That was already two seasons ago.
Nicolai and book readers know that Jamie is on a redemption arc, and he doesn’t return to Cersei after Riverrun -he won’t, not until the very end. Yes, he was addicted to Cersei, but he’s getting over her during his journey to KL with Brienne. He is drawn away from her now, he is even repulsed by Cersei. His new journey will bring him to confront his past (the Starks, Rhaegar’s son-Jon). Only when he is over it will he be able to face Cersei again, and become her valonqar. Narratively it makes lots of sense, because each and every crime Jamie has committed he has committed for her. In the books he has already realized that. So Jamie does have a redemption arc, and that arc does not relate more to his love for his sister, it relates to his crimes. His love for Cersei is his poison, so when he meets her again he will be detoxicated for being able to move forward, even if that means that he will commit a murder, or that he’ll die himself.
So Cogman may defend the show as much as he wants. It won’t change the fact that the stories and the arcs of season 8 were not satisfying for the viewers, unless that means, for him, that Jamie fighting with his back against the wall in WF and deflowering Brienne was enough to make a satisfying story -with or without redemption according to his view.
[what is disappointing in this respect is that the stories were the bare minimum of what they could do; at least I think they were all very capable for delivering a much more fulfilling story and magnificent arcs for everyone, but for some reason they… didn’t, I don’t know why]
Efi,
…Okay so in other words you didn’t like it and can’t appreciate it because it didn’t grant the Disney ending that fan-fiction writers on Tumblr dreamed of: the kind of fan-fiction that’s happy to completely miss every point going so long as their favorite characters look good and cool. Hear that, serious writers? Your goal is not to express yourself; it’s to make your readers feel warm and fuzzy.
NCW has repeatedly expressed approval of his character’s ending at many cons, including Comic Con. Even when he knew he faced a tough crowd, he’s stuck to his guns. No duh, of course he shouldn’t have returned to Cersei, few would deny that. A person who tries to quit heroin shouldn’t go back to it, but they often do.
You sound exceedingly confident in Jaime’s arc going in a direction that has been all but disproved by the show’s ending. So according to you (and tons of the aforementioned fan-fiction writers), Jaime’s book arc is going to have him undergo a complete 180 in his entire personality and become the glorious prophesied hero who slays his evil sister, while D&D chose to completely and fundamentally change his ending because… they’re just stupid? Or, because maybe, just maybe, that’s how it’s going to end for him in the books too.
Dame of Mercia,
GRRM didn’t write season 8 either. Oops.
Farimer123,
Did you really expect NCW to criticize D&D for the ending? It’s his job to defend the work he took part in -that’s why he got all that money; that’s why he’s going to all these events and giving all these interviews, to defend and promote his job. It’s crazy to think that any of the cast would ever say anything negative for the show or D&D. (and frankly it wouldn’t look nice).
From that point to believing that whatever they say is the truth and that it’s a Gospel for me to swallow whole there’s a world in between. I wasn’t born yesterday (but apparently you are much younger than me).
The cast and crew and the producers and writers they all speak about the show. They don’t speak about the book. At least in my mind this is very clear.
I didn’t say anything about a happy ending. I’m not one of those who dreamt a happy-rosy ever after J-D union. On the contrary, I’ve said over and over again that the book ending will be even worse when it comes to the characters’ arcs.
I cannot know why they changed the show so much -I have a few ideas and it’s already been discussed a lot, but they haven’t really told us so it’s pointless to dwell on it. But they admitted themselves that there are lots of changes.
And what would be the problem if they made all these changes? Jamie’s arc is one example of many that proves the point. They did make all these changes whether you like it or not and there’s the material to prove it.
So I don’t get it what it means to you, or to anybody else, to believe so fervently that show ending and book ending are absolutely the same. Why does it matter so much?
The show was their baby, not the book, and they were allowed to make all the changes they wanted in the adaptation. That’s what doing TV is.
If making a heartless assh*le out of Jamie with no purpose as a personality but to run after Cersei’s cnt made better sense for them, then good for them!
[just don’t expect me to like it; I have a right to not like it]
Efi,
So I don’t get it what it means to you, or to anybody else, to believe so fervently that show ending and book ending are absolutely the same. Why does it matter so much?
GRRM has said the ending of the show is the same one as he has planned for the books, at least for the major characters. He then gave list of minor characters whose stories might end differently. Why does disagreeing with his very clear statements matter so much to you?
Concerning Jaime, GRRM has said he created Jaime specifically to explore redemption, what it means, and whether it is possible. As Ten Bears noted, above, most of the characters who need redemption do not get it; this is a cruel and heartless world, with few happy moments — and fewer happy endings. Jaime’s fate was to fail at redemption in the show, and he may well have the same fate in the books, should they ever exist.
mau,
Sansa and Arya have only ever thought fondly of their father, so I’m not sure where the idea that they needed to reconcile with him are coming from.
mau,
That article was great! Thanks for the link!
i miss it too…
Mango,
You’re right, those reviews wouldn’t make any difference because the rest of us don’t need critical reviews in order to formulate an opinion. Normally, I don’t read critical reviews, but you gave me a list of so called great reviewers and decided to try it out at your recommendation. I picked a review at random from your list and it was a joke. The writer gave the finale a bad review because Sansa didn’t become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. The reason the writer gave for why Sansa should have been chosen was because she should have been rewarded for all the terrible things that have happened to her. Because, apparently, that’s how life works. I read another one of your recommended reviews, and it was actually positive. So I’m not sure why you continue recommending these reviews when all they do is hurt your argument.
You’ve been saying the ending didn’t work, yet your arguments have continued to be woefully unconvincing and weak. Season 8 was incredible, and you and those who think life you have been unable to prove otherwise.
A bit off topic but has a little bit of relevance to the books maybe more than a show. I don’t think it’s spoiling things to say that in the books Lord Commander Mormont has a white talking raven. I wasn’t particularly looking for anything about talking ravens but this popped into my YouTube recommendations one day. I’ll never fathom the workings of the YouTube algorithm (or of Quora who keep sending me recommendations about Harry and Megsie). Of course like most animals on film the raven in the clip is contrary and doesn’t demonstrate all of her vocabulary and she is black not white.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“Why does disagreeing with his very clear statements matter so much to you?”
1. Because I don’t see that similarity in the books. None of the ending (apart from the death of Daenerys) agrees with the book.
2. GRRM has made this statement about the “major characters” before the show ended (before even season 8 aired if I’m not mistaken). It was true for the time this statement was made, but it’s not reasonable to think that it still stands after the ending, taking -1- into account.
3. His statement after the show ended is a mockery to my intelligence. Frankly, I’m not reading a book of thousands of pages for non PoV characters such as Jeyne Poole and Podric and lady Tanda. GRRM had better address such cr*p to 8 y-o.
4. His statement that it was a “faithful adaptation” or sth like that during an interview after the show ended is contractive in itself. After he establishes in the same reply that there are differences (I think he even includes the butterfly effect in that same reply but even if he doesn’t he stresses that there are differences in any adaptation) he goes on to explain that the show was faithful. Need I apologize for my skepticism? No, I don’t.
And I don’t understand why is it ok for people to take these statements at face value and believe that the show ending was 100% faithful to the book ending, but it’s not ok for me to have a different opinion.
Also, I need to draw your attention to the fact that in this case -for me at least- it’s not about the ending itself (I’ve made my peace with it), but about the journey. The ending was excellent, but the in-between of season 8 was disappointing to say the least.
In any Odyssey it’s not the destination that matters, it’s the journey. Ithaca is always great. If the journey sucks though, all Ithacas are unrewarding.
On this note, have I recommended The Good Place? Have you seen that? It’s also a great show if you’re looking to add to your list! Ted Danson (loved him in Cheers and Bored to Death), Kirsten Bell! I also binged the new Netflix series, Never Have I Ever (10 episodes, created by Mindy Kaling and Lang Fisher, 97% on Rotten Tomatoes!), and I thought it was a really great show too!
Dame of Mercia,
Thanks for this link!
Dame of Mercia,
That’s a nice bird!
I don’t think that I’d like to get bitten by any bird though, certainly not birds of prey or crows. (she also looks small; I remember central european crows are huge)
I once got attacked by a swan though.
Rule number 1: never approach a swan’s chicks.
Me too!! (Except it was not so much a swan as a Canada goose XD;;)
Young Dragon,
One reviewer for The Bells said that he doesn’t want to spend his Sunday nights watching people burn and scream lol
Reviews were mixed. But there was a lot of critics who gave positive reviews for the last 3 episodes. Last season was nominated at TCA Awards after all.
Efi,
And Tensor
“is contractive”, lol, of course contradictive!
Sorry.
Dame of Mercia,
Always enjoy family videos 🙂 <3
Daily Arya/Maisie Appreciation Post
Part 1 of 2
Check out the linked BBC article about Maisie Williams’s £50,000 donation to the Bristol Animal Rescue Centre, and the embedded video of the Centre’s staff thanking her.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-52486953
Here’s the headline & text of the linked article.
Coronavirus: Maisie Williams donates £50,000 to animal charity after fundraising halted
Game of Thrones actor Maisie Williams has donated £50,000 to an animal rescue centre which had lost most of its income because of Covid-19.
Staff at the Bristol centre said they were “absolutely stunned and completely overwhelmed” to receive the cash.
Bristol Animal Rescue Centre launched its appeal after coronavirus forced it to postpone all of its upcoming fundraising events and activities.
Bristol-born Williams, 23, adopted a dog from the charity in 2016.
‘Dark times’
She said adopting Sonny, her “rescue pooch”, had changed her life for the better.
“It’s so important in these difficult times not to forget about charities like Bristol ARC that need our help,” said Williams, who played Arya Stark in the HBO drama.
“We all need to stick together in these dark times and keep the world spinning regardless.”
The charity, which opened in 1887, was forced to close its doors to the public last month as the pandemic took hold.
It also had to postpone all of its upcoming fundraising events and activities, and suspend all their animal adoptions for the foreseeable future.
Staff at the centre posted a video on Facebook expressing their thanks.
Jodie Hayward, who manages the centre, said knowing Williams respects and “loves what we do so much means the world to us”.
“I couldn’t believe it when I heard what she had done to support us, I had to hold back a few tears.
“It really will make the world of difference to us right now and we can’t thank her enough for her generosity.”
———
[Continued in Part 2: Embedded photo of Maisie and her Hound]
Part 2 of 2 (cont. from 7:22 pm above)
Link to photo embedded in the article:
Arya… I mean Maisie Williams … with her Hound, Sandor …. I mean rescue dog, Sonny.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/410/cpsprodpb/13E2E/production/_112045418_maisiewilliams169.jpg
Well Adrianacandle it’s time to respond because I actually finally finished HDM today! I finished the third book “The Amber Spyglass”. Ten Bears I do see a number of similarities with Arya’s character. MW would have done great in this role when she was younger. I would hope she wouldn’t try to play a 12 year old anymore!! But Lyra is a liar in alot of the book very much like Arya made up stories and eventually became a FM (and learned how to be more convincing). Lyra is called “Silvertongue”.
Adrianacandle I’m blown away at how amazing a TV show this could be if they pull off the special effects in seasons 2 and 3. The last two books (especially the third) is way beyond what they had to accomplish in season 1 (in the special effects area). It could really be something. I think you said you had some questions. I’m going to put some spoilers in for those who have read the books. Living in the religious world (working at a synagogue), the themes of HDM are quite poignant to me. I didn’t quite follow all Pullman’s allegories as i was reading, but I think I understand them now. I did have to google a couple things right after I finished, and it makes more sense now what happened!
Even before I googled, I knew what Pullman was saying. I just had to clear up a few details that I didn’t quite follow as I read it.
There are plenty of disturbing ideas he puts forth and he pretty much shoots down organized religion in a major not so subtle way. That should be interesting how it’s done on TV. I have alot more to say, but let me know if you had some questions that you mentioned a few months ago when I finished…
The wheeled creatures should be very interesting to see how they create them with special effects. There’s so much to do special effects wise, I’m tired just thinking about the amount of work!
Let me ask everyone’s advice…
Do you advise me to read “Fire and Blood” for my next book project? Is it exciting at all or does it read like “The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven” that Ned was reading. I’m not sure if I want to just read a synopsis of what happened to each Targaryen. Is there a narrative at all? or is it just written as a description of each historical character? If Arya would tell me about each of the stories, that would be awesome. Maybe Maisie will make an audio book? She was great telling the story of “Dark Sister” to Tywin. I could see listening to a whole book of Maisie spinning the tales of her warrior Targaryen heroes of the past on audio book!! Ten Bears, make it so! It would sell millions.
<blockquote cite="comment-219
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Just nitpicking here: if I remember the books correctly, he feels repulsed mainly because Tyrion told him she layed with other men, and he is quite obsessed by the thought. Not a clear sign that he is free from her, imo. So for me nothing in the books at this point garantees anything. But I may misremember.
mau: No one wanted her to “save” them.
Yep. Not even all the slaves in Essos (there was this old slave teacher telling her his life had gone worse). Actually, we had this point shown quite early, with MMD. She didn’t learn. She remained that entitled self-declared savior, ‘free-ing’ people from her position of power (they don’t get to choose either), in spite of her better sides. I am quite sure that around the world she has been quite early perceived by many as an image of the USA and their foreign policy. She kind of forgot to declare KL had weapons of mass-destruction, though. 😈
AnnOther,
*though*, too late to correct the autocorrect !
Efi,
1. Because I don’t see that similarity in the books. None of the ending (apart from the death of Daenerys) agrees with the book.
The books currently end with Jon Snow’s assassination. The show continued his story after that. So, yes, the ending of his story does not agree with the books (so far). 😉
Seriously, this is your opinion based on what, exactly? That you didn’t like the ending?
2. GRRM has made this statement about the “major characters” before the show ended (before even season 8 aired if I’m not mistaken). It was true for the time this statement was made, but it’s not reasonable to think that it still stands after the ending, taking -1- into account.
It’s not “reasonable to think that” GRRM still knows if the show’s ending comports with what he intends to do, based on your opinion? Really?
3. His statement after the show ended is a mockery to my intelligence. Frankly, I’m not reading a book of thousands of pages for non PoV characters such as Jeyne Poole and Podric and lady Tanda. GRRM had better address such cr*p to 8 y-o.
Then you won’t be reading much of his future output, I’m guessing. Maybe some future “Boiled Down Leather” version will be available to read?
Again, that GRRM is planning to write things you don’t like is not in any way proof he’ll write an ending you might like.
And I don’t understand why is it ok for people to take these statements at face value and believe that the show ending was 100% faithful to the book ending, but it’s not ok for me to have a different opinion.
We take these statements at face value because they are all we have. We don’t have the final books in the series — and we may never have those books. You’re free to have any opinion you like, but your opinion is based on contradicting what GRRM has said — and he’s the only person who could possibly know if what he’s saying may ever come true!
In any Odyssey it’s not the destination that matters, it’s the journey. Ithaca is always great. If the journey sucks though, all Ithacas are unrewarding.
The story doesn’t end with Odysseus’ arrival on Ithaka, and it’s not “great” when he arrives to find his house full of enemies who want to take his wife and kingdom.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
You misjudge me.
I my reply that you’ve read and answered to with such aggression the phrase what “I like” and what “I don’t like” was not a part.
Don’t project on to me what “you like” and what “you don’t like”.
I also didn’t say anything about whether “I liked” the books or not.
You’re the one who thought that me speaking against the characters’ arcs in the show means that “I don’t like” the books.
But I didn’t make that connection. You did.
You are in no position to judge what I will like and won’t like.
You are also not in a position to know what Martin will write, anymore than I am.
I explained to you the reasons why I think that book and show will be different.
You asked, so I replied only to be attacked because I have an opinion.
If others’ opinions do not agree with you and make you feel uncomfortable, then don’t ask.
Tron79,
YAY!! And I loved reading your post, Tron! Especially the connections you’re making, things I hadn’t thought of before because my own foundations in religion are rather weak (I grew up Roman Catholic, went to a Catholic school, I know the bible stories, prayers, beliefs, remember some of the scriptures and recall how some — in the Old Testament and the New Testament — conflict sometimes. However, these aren’t things I’ve really thought significantly on, contemplated, etc. To me, Catholicism was always like another school subject I had to study but not something that held much personal importance to me.)
I agree, HDM could be really incredible if they’re able to pull off the special effects.
I find this really fascinating. I was never able to truly connect it in such a way due to my own lack of knowledge/thinking about religion but I see more and more how they connect now. I agree that Pullman is rejecting the idea of doing things to get into a heaven of sorts and that we must make our own good world, it’s not up to a godly being. I’ve also seen many put forth the idea that Pullman is criticizing Catholicism and I’m pretty confident that he is. What do you think?
Agreed about falling through an abyss forever is nightmarish — and these are Mrs Coulter and Lord Asriel’s face when they sacrifice themselves for Lyra, the “new Eve”. Do you have any particular thoughts on this?
I see the connection you’re making being living in purgatory for a time after death and the land of the dead which I think Lyra finds Roger in. Toward the end, I think Will uses a knife to release Roger in a way — do you think this has connections to what you’re describing with Judaism? Roger is a beloved friend of Lyra’s and Lyra enters the world of the dead to find Roger. Roger is eventually released from the land of the dead (although it occurs after some struggle. I think a bomb explodes, creating an abyss, which Lyra nearly falls into before she is rescued by one of the harpies. However, Roger’s ghost is released through the window Will creates with the knife.)
And I think Lyra dreams of Roger in the land of the dead when she is hidden and kept in a drugged sleep by Mrs Coulter, who is trying to save Lyra from the Church.
Sorry for so many questions! Because you live in a religious world and have all this knowledge, I really like reading your views on Pullman’s story!
You know, I actually suggested to my girlfriend yesterday that we watch the episode together… and now we have a watchparty organized for “The Door” sometime next week!
Tron79,
Typos!
*
*
AnnOther,
I did not say that he is free from her and of course when it is all over he will return to her, but he will be a changed man so that their story can move forward to whichever direction Martin wants to take it (I’m guessing it will involve the valonqar).
When he arrives at KL the process of change has already begun for Jamie. He realizes that Cersei doesn’t want him more than she wants power and the throne; and that he was always the “beggar” in their affair. He took what Cersei gave him without ever demanding anything, but Cersei just wanted to be the queen. Then what Tyrion tells him is added to that; and then his dislike for her decisions which prove exactly the point. If I am not mistaken (my reading at least) he also realizes that Cersei uses s*x to get him to do what she wants.
So when Jamie leaves for Riverrun he is in a quest to reconnect with his lost honor which involves his past, and will involve Catelyn some way or another. He is determined to be “the king’s justice”, he thinks of himself as a “breaker and maker of kings”, so when Cersei asks him to hurry back to KL, he just ignores her.
There’s other things that draw his attention now that do not involve Cersei. Jamie will be heading North in WoW.
For those of you not into HDM, this can also relate to Jon Snow’s view of the afterlife (when he says there wasn’t one!). It can also relate to Spock’s line to Dr. McCoy in Star Trek IV when he says Dr. McCoy wouldn’t understand since he didn’t have a common frame of reference. McCoy says something like “I have to die first to talk to you about death”. (I’m paraphrasing).
“Agreed about falling through an abyss forever is nightmarish — and these are Mrs Coulter and Lord Asriel’s face when they sacrifice themselves for Lyra, the “new Eve”. Do you have any particular thoughts on this?”
I have to go back and read this scene again. I got more of an explanation off screen towards the end of the book. What I took away from Mrs. Coulter is that she was the most changed character of the book. And LOVE is what changed her. Pullman’s view of original sin to me was that if that’s what the church calls sin, he’s all for it. He saw the beauty in the golden DUST. Love seemed to be at the heart of DUST. That’s why Lyra’s natural physical and emotional love for Will in the new Garden of Eden didn’t seem like such a bad thing did it. It seemed like the natural thing that shines under the golden DUST. The alternative in Pullman’s view was that the church wanted to keep everyone stupid and under control going against the natural order of things.
At least if Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel had to fall in abbys forever, I’m thinking they are together forever. Maybe that’s not all bad and as scary. And I think they have their daemons with them too.
Adrianacandle said:
“I see the connection you’re making being living in purgatory for a time after death and the land of the dead which I think Lyra finds Roger in. Toward the end, I think Will uses a knife to release Roger in a way — do you think this has connections to what you’re describing with Judaism?
Yes, in a major way. It’s a beautiful concept that no matter how awful you are in life, you can go through a cleansing period and be released in a similar way to the way Roger was released through the window Will cut. Telling the Harpies truthful stories was also similar to being written up in the “Book of Life” which is a concept that after you die, you are judged by your deeds written up in the book of life.
Over the years, I’ve learned not to take everything so literally in my religion that there will actually be a physical book of life waiting for me someday. Judaism mainly focuses on how to live in the world of the living. You don’t really have to believe in G-d at all and you could still follow the guidelines of how to live an ethical life and get along with your neighbors and love the stranger. The word “Israel” means to wrestle with G-d, so it’s a very natural thing to have questions. The idea of this 12 month mourning period is interesting in Judaism. I think it’s more for the person in mourning. You go to a service everyday and you are required to be with at least 10 people to say the kaddish prayer. This gets you out of isolation and with the community to help you deal with the loss. This is particularity hard now with everyone at home. The Rabbi’s have made an exception right now with doing the service on Zoom that we can still say Kaddish without having 10 people physically in the same room. But it’s also a beautiful idea that no matter what your loved one might have done in life, he/she can be cleansed over those 12 months and released much like Roger. By saying the kaddish prayer and doing deeds of charity, you can have a part in helping them move on. It’s also a custom that you never say the prayer for all 12 months. You stop at 11 months, because it’s hurtful to think any loved one can be so evil that it takes all 12 months to cleanse them!
There are plenty of concepts if taken literally can seem like utter nonsense. There is one concept about your bones rolling through these elaborate underground tunnels and rolling all the way to Jerusalem so they can be there for the “resurrection”. Utter nonsense to me, but it made the Rabbi’s happy to have an explanation of how it would all work!
You also asked about Lyra’s dreams. That’s another interesting thing in my religion. Judaism teaches that our souls leave us when we dream at night, so in a way we actually die every night and return to the land of the living when we wake up. There is a prayer we say in the morning to thank G-d for returning our souls to our bodies called “Modeh Ani”. I sure hope it’s not like Jon Snow said and everything is totally black when we die. But that would be preferable to thinking you could be falling in an endless abyss or stuck in purgatory if no one is out there to say the kaddish prayer for you (like Lyra came to help).
I will say that Pullman was too harsh on organized religion. Even if you believe that organized religion is basically there to keep you stupid and keep you under control, there are people who absolutely find the beauty in their religion. It’s hard for me to see Pullman criticize those people for finding beauty in their religion and what they believe. I actually played Jesus in Godspell in our high school production many many years ago. I have a major regret when an elderly woman came up to me after the show. She was going on and on about how much my performance meant to her. Being a stupid insensitive teenager, I laughed about her to my friends afterwards and made fun of her. It’s a major regret in life for me to this day, and I can see it written up in my Book of Life!
But I’ve learned from it. Years later I thought about that woman and how much her religion meant to her. Even though I’m definitely not an expert on Jesus’ teachings, I can see the beauty in them with how we are supposed to treat each other in this land of the living. Is there a value in making the world a better place without waiting for G-d to lend a hand? Yes, I think so. Do I think alot of harm comes from taking the stories in the texts too literally and starting wars in the name of G-d…yes…
I think it’s wonderful that Pullman sparks all of these thoughts and discussions. I’ll stop there for now.
My Lord!
(*Hears voice of Tywin: “M’Lord”*)
• Thanks for that update! I’m pleased to hear that the two of you will watch the episode together.
• I’m reminded that in addition to the back-and-forth, past-and-present Wyllis/Hodor final segment I was raving about, “The Door” also had many other good scenes, including one of my favorites: the visit by Red Temple High Priestess & Head Cheerleader Kinvara. (“Daenerys is gonna purify nonbelievers by the thousands!”)
• As part of your watch party, after the episode concludes, I’m sure you will have lots of thoughts to share with your gf from your own in depth analyses and reviews. For a quick rat-rat-rat style, entertaining video review, you might also want to queue up Ozzy Man’s review of “The Door.” (Link below.)
—-
Ozzy Man Reviews S6e5, “The Door”
(3:36 long story synopsis; 9:07 total length)
———
Tron79,
I think I will add more to my response later but I want to say now that I think that the connections you’re making are gorgeous and insightful — I’ve even gotten goosebumps a few times!
If you would be willing and if this is of interest to you, I think — with your background in religion — these would make for some great blog posts. You make fascinating points that I haven’t seen much of, ones that I think Pullman himself would be interested in if he ever came across it. I’ve never made any of these connections before because I don’t have that background but it’s making me see the story in a more in-depth way that leaves me with a more hopeful reading. I admit that I was
In short: I’m really glad you read HDM, Tron!
Season 8 this nightmare 🤣
2 episodes for nothing 🤣
The long night that lasts 3 hours 🤣
The zombies who spend their time cuddling the protagonists 🤣
Fat Sam who lies down on the floor and cries 🤣
Arya who KILLS the night king 🤣
The intrigue of the three eyed raven ended from episode 3 🤣
Daenerys who does not see a whole fleet arriving far away 🤣
One shot dragon 🤣
My sundae that dies like shit 🤣
The madness of Daenerys which is created quickly with justification “but you know since the beginning of the series she has made questionable choices” 🤣
Varys the smartest guy in the series still alive who is outsmart by I don’t know what some nobrain and is betrayed by Tyrion 🤣
Besides, are we talking about Tyrion? 🤣
Its dialogues reduced to “u hav a lil cock lmao” and its transparency for 4 episodes 🤣
There you expect a final crazy battle 🤣
No 🤣
Cersei and Jaime who are SCOUTED 🤣
Daenerys dragon in god mode which avoids 45 shots of triggerfish before the one shot one by one 🤣
THE GOLDEN COMPANY 🤣
El famoso celebro capitaino which takes 20 seconds 🤣
The hundreds of dothrakis who respawn after being eaten by the specters 3 episodes before 🤣
The bloody qyburn team 🤣
Daenerys who burns everyone for I don’t know some reason 🤣
The Burlington bar and its cucks who called their cat Daenerys 🤣
Episode 6 🤣
Daenerys’ death 🤣
The dragon graduated from Harvard in philosophy which destroys the Iron Throne instead of burning Jon 🤣
Gray Worm which ENCLOSES Jon for 1 month instead of abutting him 🤣
THE ELECTION OF THE NEW KING 🤣
WORTHY OF A HOUSEHOLD SCENE 🤣
The future of the world is at stake but that chooses to elect a medium sociopath who knew very well what was going to happen 🤣
Jon condemned to exile on the Wall 🤣
Oh well not in fact he goes beyond the wall with his friends the gypsies 🤣
The Dothrakis who remain on Westerosi lands 🤣
The Unsullied who are happy and leave 🤣
END SCENE = The gypsies are happy to find their land 🤣
Game Of Thrones 🤣
Efi,
Ok, I had interpreted wrongly what you wrote. I agree with this (where he is, he has realized many things about Cersei, and he’s focused on something else). However, I have no firm conviction on where it will lead him next. I (still, faintly) hope we’ll be able to see one day.
“S*x” ? If you mean sex, say so. It’s a commonplace word, not a profanity.
Thanks Adrianacandle. Thanks for recommending the books!
Now I have to decide whether to jump into Fire and Blood, but I don’t feel a great motivation to do that yet.
I am really thrilled to see what HBO does with HDM for seasons 2 and 3. I’m hoping they don’t get delayed because of COVID.
So what would i do all day in the land of the dead in a garden of eden? Maybe read TWOW. Hopefully it won’t take that long for it come out though or the angels may lock poor GRRM up until he finishes, but maybe Pullman could send in a Lyra to help GRRM out of his nightmare corner! Maybe some blessings would help him. I could say a prayer daily to help him out of purgatory. I would love to see a cross pollination of the Pullman and GRRM worlds. My brother’s new book is a sci fi book involving time travel. I will probably delve into his book next actually and buy it from amazon. It will make him happy! He said there is another author by the same publisher that has a time travel story coming out at the same time. I said they should write something where one of the characters meets the other character from the other book in a crossover story. That would be cool with GRRM and Pullman. Anyway… I really did get alot from HDM. I also am sort of watching “The Last Kingdom” where they don’t put Christianity in a good light. I would much rather be a Dane in that show! I can see their point on some horrible things done in the middle ages, but I think there are many positive things about religion, such as community and learning how to treat your neighbor. I’m hoping the religion bashing can be kept down some, because it means so much to so many people. I don’t agree with Pullman that it’s just there to control us and keep us stupid (I think that’s what he’s saying anyway). I think in my life I see most of the trouble coming when people take too much in the texts literally instead of looking deeper. Ten Bears, here’s a proper use of the word “literally”. But that’s my own opinion. I agree with Tyrion from the finale when he says maybe it’s better that things would just be black thinking of the alternative of living in some hell that he deserved from killing Shae and his father (and other deeds from his life). For me, I see lots of scientific evidence that something is after. With so many NDE’s out there, there’s alot of evidence that there is a life review of some kind and you may be guided by lost relatives (even relatives you never met!). But I hope it’s not like the evidence I’ve seen with ghosts that are stuck reliving the same scene over and over again in their old house. If that’s the case, maybe black is better or maybe someone in the land of the living will help the spirit move on… Where’s Jennifer Love Hewitt when you need her?
Well, to be fair, we all have different sensibilities. Even though four-letter word expletives are now commonplace online, in dignified publications (and in Presidential speeches 🍄), I still replace letters with asterisks out of courtesy. (I’ve noticed that some slang words, like “c*nt” and “tw*t” are more acceptable in everyday speech in Australia, the UK, and Sandorville than in the U.S.)
If there are any words that merit deletion or elision as profanity, I say let’s start with:
• brill**nt
• bittersw**t
Those overused words offend me more than slang words for reproductive organs and bodily functions. 🤓
cc: King Stannis, Protector of the Realm, Defender of the Lexicon
Tron79,
”…Now I have to decide whether to jump into Fire and Blood, but I don’t feel a great motivation to do that yet.“
Hey Tron!
Let me (us) know what you decide. I still have not started reading the ASOIAF books because I don’t want to be left hanging like the multitudes of book readers who’ve been waiting nine years and counting for “The Winds of Winter“ (and have pretty much accepted that they’ll never see “A Dream of Spring.”)
I don’t feel a great motivation to read “Fire and Blood” either – or at this point to watch “House of the Dragon.” Although I wouldn’t mind a Doom of Valyria tie-in to GoT since the show posed unexplained mysteries behind that cataclysmic event, I reached my DSP* by mid-S7 of Game of Thrones. Nor am I really intrigued about more details of Targaryen lore.
But I could be wrong! Maybe “Fire and Blood” is engrossing stand-alone reading; maybe “House of the Dragon” will prove to be a massive hit and wind up better than the original series. (After all, I didn’t watch GoT when it first started airing because to me, a since-reformed genre snob, the premise sounded…silly.)
I’m still a little ticked-off that HBO canceled the prequel starring Naomi Watts based only on a never-aired pilot episode – and then greenlit an entire season of “House of the Dragon” sight unseen. (I admit I’m biased: Naomi Watts can do no wrong in my book. I’d watch her in anything.)
I’m also a little perplexed by the precipitous axing of that first prequel: As I recall, the pilot episode of Game of Thrones bombed so badly that it had to be re-shot, with some of the actors replaced (e.g., Tamzin Merchant as Daenerys and Jennifer Ehle as Catelyn – though in her case it was supposedly due to a scheduling conflict or family commitments.) HBO did not give up on GoT based solely on an underwhelming initial pilot. I wonder why the prequel didn’t get the same chance. I’m not sure why some Hollywood suits concluded the pilot – and the entire series – were unsalvageable. I guess it’s unlikely we’ll ever know…
I’m also curious why they’d order an entire series of “House of the Dragon” without so much as a first-look pilot episode, or casting any of the roles. It seems like a big gamble: Even if it looks good on paper, lots of promising shows tank; others struggle to find an audience; and others get canned after a few episodes because of crappy ratings.**
I suppose my point (if there is one 🤔) is that so far, there’s nothing to get me excited about “House of the Dragon,” and I’m inclined to wait and see if the first season is successful and is renewed for a second season before I invest my time.
* Dragon Saturation Point
** Most of us are aware of promising TV shows that got canceled after only one season, and have since become cult classics. One commenter (sorry; I forget who) mentioned “My So-Called Life” starring a young Claire Danes and Jared Leto: one and done.
I remember a super-hyped TV series called “Skin” starring a young Olivia Wilde. I enjoyed the first three episodes but when I tuned in for Episode 4: Nothing. Canceled without warning or explanation.
Other shows took a while to attract a following. I think “Seinfeld” was an example.
Still others were supposed to be massive hits, with all the right ingredients – an all-star cast, big-name producer and director. Like the Scorcese-produced “Vinyl” in 2016: Four months after announcing its renewal for a second season, HBO turned around and pulled the plug. (Karsi was in it! How bad could it have been?)
Tron79,
”…. but I think there are many positive things about religion, such as community and learning how to treat your neighbor. I’m hoping the religion bashing can be kept down some, because it means so much to so many people. I don’t agree with Pullman that it’s just there to control us and keep us stupid (I think that’s what he’s saying anyway). I think in my life I see most of the trouble coming when people take too much in the texts literally instead of looking deeper. Ten Bears, here’s a proper use of the word “literally”.
– Thank you! I appreciate that you remembered that the misuse and abuse of “literally” is one of my pet peeves.
– “With so many NDE’s out there…”
What is an “NDE”?
– ”….positive things about religion, such as community and learning how to treat your neighbor.”
I’ve got a personal anecdote that kind of ties into this, which I may post later or tomorrow under spoiler-coding so as not to bore anyone else with off-off-topic stuff. 🙄
Ten Bears,
I think since GRRM was involved they went with Fire and Blood series (More of a sure thing) and it also had source material. Yeah I agree that Naomi Watts and the cast looked intriguing. I was really Interested in the potential of exploring the COTF’s culture with Leaf and the tree network. From the few shots Of the filming I saw it looked a bit too much like Ancient Rome for me though. I’m worried that Fire and Blood will be delayed because of COVID. But it’s already supposed to be pretty far away.
GRRMs books are a huge time investment so I have to feel really motivated to jump in. I wasn’t sure how fire and blood was structured and if it’s a page turner or a series of stories that don’t really connect. Maybe someone else who has read it can describe what the reading experience was like.
If/when GRRM releases TWOW I’ll jump in like yesterday. I do feel it was worth the read of the first five books just to compare the show with what GRRM wrote. With the reaction to season 8 I wanted to get clues if GRRM May take a different path. And as you know I was highly motivated to follow Arya’s book journey. The 5 books are now setup in a fort structure with Arya and my other figures standing on top of the books like battlements. Arya’s figure with her spear is quite exiting to see everyday. I think you said you weren’t a fan of the Funko figures but they do put a smile on my face everyday.
Tron79,
From the extracts I’ve seen in the internet F&B looks like narrative. It’s a narration about the rule of the Targaryen kings through the eyes of one (or more but I am not sure) maester. If my memory doesn’t deceive me, GRRM said that he wanted with this to show the subjectivity of the narrator (or something similar). He wanted to produce a history book like the ones they wrote in the middle ages. As such, it probably doesn’t contain any dialog. If you want dialog, the book will rather bore you, but on the other hand the narrative is very colorful like Martin’s always is.
I’m also one of those who haven’t read “Fire and blood” yet. Maybe GRRM has a lot of fun writing about the lore of the family that ruled Westeros until 15 years before of ASOIAF events, but ASOIAF is his magnum opus. And the Targaryen characters in ASOIAF maybe aren’t that complex and interesting, even if some of their passages are fun to read or to watch, if we talk about GoT. Although his resentment may be understandable, Viserys is terrible. Daenerys, as his sister and the mad king’s daughter, isn’t much more interesting, based on how her whole story unfolded in the show. She’s a girl with dragons, beasts that provided some spectacle, but are only a trigger for her to explode in the end, revealing a person with a lack of psychological depth. I assume Jon will only know he is a Targaryen in the end of ASOIAF. Being part of that family isn’t that really relevant to what he is, apart from the status of heir to the throne. There’s Maester Aemon, I suppose.
Based on what we have on Targaryens in ASOIAF/GoT, it would be strange that GRRM would write characters with more depth in a book of fictional history about a family known for incestuous and vicious people. Some of them are real nutcases.
I understand the intention of expanding the universe he created with “Fire and Blood”. I have an idea on what the Targaryen dynasty was, after reading some information about it on the Internet, but I don’t know if there is good enough material to make a high quality television drama with “The House of the Dragon”. A great TV show must make us think about our human condition, how a society influences the actions of the individuals and how change within a society is possible. We have to wait to know if it’s possible. But there is a good reason to read those books and watch the show: engage in the discussions with this community.
As for Naomi Watts, I like her very much as well. It would be cool if she could be cast in HotD, after the other prequel has been cancelled. I think she would do great portraying a unstable or tortured character, after what I’ve seen from her.
Thanks Efi. I can’t say I’ve read a history book from the Middle Ages so hard to say whether I will get into it. Of course it’s GOT related so there’s that. You gave me a good idea to search for some samples from it. I think I need to do that before jumping in.
Tron79,
”If/when GRRM releases TWOW I’ll jump in like yesterday. I do feel it was worth the read of the first five books just to compare the show with what GRRM wrote. With the reaction to season 8 I wanted to get clues if GRRM may take a different path. And as you know I was highly motivated to follow Arya’s book journey. The 5 books are now setup in a fort structure with Arya and my other figures standing on top of the books like battlements. Arya’s figure with her spear is quite exciting to see everyday. I think you said you weren’t a fan of the Funko figures but they do put a smile on my face everyday.
– I assume you saw the MW Thronecast interview (link posted upthread) in which she’s asked about the accuracy of the Arya Funko figurine, comments on its lack of eyebrows, and draws them in with a marker.
I haven’t been thrilled with the Funko Pop figurines in general because they look to me to be all the same: just a round plastic ball with character-centric hair color, “costumes,” and accessories. I’m not one to judge though. I suppose they look cute on a shelf or mantle.
I envy your “fort” structure, and that you are able to look at the figures populating the “battlements” every day.
I’ve pretty much stowed away all of my GoT memorabilia to preserve them for posterity:
– My Entertainment Weekly Special Edition issues are sealed in acid-free plastic pouches and stored in a drawer. So is my Helen Sloan photograph book. I looked at the magazines and book maybe once with latex gloves to avoid smudges and fingerprints before stashing them away.
– I got the Sandor and Arya lifelike figurines
(Strangely enough, the less expensive plastic figurines I got from the online HBO Store a few years ago for about $10 – $15 each are more lifelike than the metal (?) casting figurines that cost 10x as much.) However, my Arya and Sandor are still in their original display packaging, and sealed back up in the shipping box they came in.
– My Game of Thrones Royal Mail stamps – my favorite souvenirs- are in special philatelic folders. I did however photograph and scan them first so I can print out reproductions. (They’re not good for postage in the U.S. so I’m not trying to counterfeit postage.) The Arya stamp is interesting. It took that classic shot of Arya twirling Needle in her S4 scene with Sandor (when he mocked her practicing “water dancing” and suggested she put on a dress 😀), and transposed it onto a Braavos backdrop. Still really cool.
All of the Royal Mail character stamps have photograph-quality portraits of the actors snd actresses in character. In fact, I think Kit Harington used Jon Snow stamps on his wedding invitations.
I’ll probably unseal my GoT momentos for a viewing one or twice a year. I wish I wasn’t so fixated on keeping them in pristine condition, and allowed them to “breathe” like the denizens of your fort. (I know: Kind of silly to have ‘em if you can’t see ‘em.)
———
Sorry so long-winded. Short(er) reply to your comment about the books to follow…
Tron79,
All good ideas!! Anything, anything at this point to help!
I’d love to see Cersei and Mrs Coulter interact XD
I agree. I think that could be really fascinating.
I agree with this. I think religion [is a lot what people take from it — and I think there are many nice ideas in many religions when not using it as a dogmatic guide to life in which it’s read as a rigid rule set (speaking of which, The Good Place explores that really nicely). I know religion can also provide great comfort and guidance to some, like my mum. Knowing there’s something else out there.
Ten Bears,
You have a great collection. Hopefully you ate those Oreos and didn’t keep them sealed in the bag. Well maybe one bag would be cool to have. It’s actually a sign of a true collector to keep things in their boxes. I do have one Tyrion figure in the box and one very unusual Arya flash drive. It really doesn’t resemble Maisie at all but it’s still pretty cool and in the box.
I think it also can make them more special when you bring them back out after not seeing them for awhile.
Efi,
And why is it that Jamie’s preventive murder of Aerys didn’t come up? Should no one [: Jon] know that he saved a city by murdering a king?
I was really expecting Brienne to end her defense of Jamie with this story, perfect time for it. Made no sense (but then it made no sense for lack of any reaction to the destruction of the Sept – there was the comment from Jamie to Cersie that they needed to talk about Tommen, but that was nipped in the bud and no one talked about it)
Even the promo teased the significance of Jon’s identity (the feather, the crypts, Catelyn’s voice), but the show failed to live up even to that.
Like the White Walkers, all this build up that ultimately didn’t matter all that much. Another reason why I miss GOT – all the missed opportunties that would have made all the differemce (letting us in on the chat Tyrion had with Bran would have been nice too)
Mr Derp,
Wouldn’t it have been great to see Theon’s reaction to Ramsey’s death?
Oh my yes!!!
Mr Derp,
These too:
* I wonder what ever ended up happening in Essos anyway. Now that Dany is dead, would the slavers return to power?
* It would be really cool to see Jon and Tormund go on an expedition further North of the Wall to explore the White Walker home and see what’s still there. I think it was called the Land of Always Winter? Would’ve made a really cool one-off spin-off type of episode.
* Cersei hired Bronn at the beginning of season 8 to kill her brothers, so she clearly wanted them dead, yet in episode 4 when she has an easy chance to have Tyrion killed, she didn’t take it. I don’t really get that.
* Why didn’t Tyrion and Dany ever discuss a strategy involving trying to stealthily infiltrate KL from the inside like they did in Meereen and Yunkai? Tyrion knew KL inside and out, especially the Red Keep. Wouldn’t that have been the most realistic option for Tyrion instead of constantly trying to convince Cersei to surrender? Tyrion was desperate for Dany not to burn KL down yet he never mentioned this as an option to her?
* Varys was a master manipulator in KL yet under Dany’s rule he was basically relegated to a messenger and openly committed treason. Varys and Tyrion just weren’t the same after they left KL.
* Not a major point, but I wish we got to find out what Varys heard in the flames and who said it.
* I wish we got to find out how the Quaithe knew everything back in season 2. Without knowing, she was basically just a plot device to tell Jorah where the dragons were.
* Was Cersei lying about her “black haired” baby back in season 1 when she was talking to Catelyn? If not, then she had more children than the prophecy foretold. I assume she was lying, but I don’t think this was ever addressed.
ash,
In your opinion, what alternate course could the show have taken in S8 that would have “lived up to the significance of Jon’s identity”?
Ten Bears,
A: “Trant didn’t have a sword. Or armor. Only a wooden stick.” [Sandor smiles with barely-disguised pride.]
Ha! You know, you could be a great screen writer with this kinda stuff!
mau,
from the article The path Game of Thrones chose for the ending is the one that, yes, subverted our expectations, but in the best and most logical way- in a way that makes us re-interpret almost everything we knew before. And Game of Thrones’ ending is not forcing you to reconsider just one thing, Daenerys for example. They are forcing you to reconsider almost everything. Purpose of Jon Targaryen, Jaime, White Walkers, Bran’s journey,… Some would say that’s too much to ask from your audience at the very end. But isn’t that sign of respect showrunners are showing for their audience? They don’t want to spoon feed us. And most of all, they stay true to their vision, and end the story how they and George have been planning for years, knowing the risk in making decision that might seem odd at first to some viewers.
The author makes a good point, But I agree with this poster comment Game of thrones was always good at subverting expectations but it was always logical too. The last season was undoubtedly rushed and many characters were doing things that were out of character This had nothing to do with subverting expectations, more to do with sloppy writing that left huge gaps in the story. But thats fine – its been a year, and in the end, I still miss GOT, undoubtedly the greatest tv show I have ever watched and love enough to keep arguing over it!
ash,
There were plenty of times in past seasons of GoT where there were gaps in logic and clarity, going all the way back to the first season. But no one harped on those too badly… so long as the overall story was going in a direction that they approved of.
Adrianacandle,
Unfortunately, Mean Girls culture is not uncommon here. It can begin around grade 3/4 (ages 8 and 9). From my limited experiences with kids and teaching kids, they realize — to extent — that they are being cruel but I’ve never delved into the reasons exactly why. Still, I don’t think they realize nearly the impact their cruelty has.
When I was 10 somehow the fact that my mom worked and we did not have the money they all had (plus I was socially awkward) gave those mean girls ‘reason’ to bully me, not physically but the emotional and mental abuse through Jr Hi affected me in a huge was, and it took years to erase the damage they caused . But as bad as it was, I am so glad not to have grown up now with social media. The daughter of a dear friend entered HS with friends wh she had since elem school. They suddenly turned on her and used the net to hurt her to the core. Thank goodness she had her mom and me and others that reminded her that there is life after HS, and kept her self concept intact. But I don’t think I would have made it through if I had to go through all that
Farimer123,
Um not sure who you are quoting but I didn’t say that.
Farimer123,
You are right, no question. And yeah people screamed about them during the after show discussions, so lots was said (Aryas walk through Braavos like she wasn’t in danger was a big one) Its the fact that going through the ending required some sense of logic that I didn’t see. To be fair, I suspect if it was a full season it would all have made sense. But it wasn’t….and it didn’t.
Daenerys Targaryen: A Different Type of Tragedy in Game of Thrones
https://medium.com/@wethrones/daenerys-targaryen-a-different-type-of-tragedy-in-game-of-thrones-b0410447cd75
Tron79,
”…And as you know I was highly motivated to follow Arya’s book journey.”
I suppose I am too: I did read the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter GRRM posted online and really liked it. I assume that’s where Arya’s books! story has left off for now, i.e., in Braavos, with the theatre troupe. To be more precise,
What I find intriguing about the possibility of “following Arya’s book journey” is my (admittedly speculative) impression that GRRM had not even sketched out Arya’s post-Braavos storyline; or if he has, he did not share it with the showrunners.
It seemed to me that the showrunners cobbled together Arya’s post-Braavos storyline, in part, by borrowing and grafting from other book characters in-progress storylines, e.g., Lord Manderly’s “Frey Pies” party (see Arya with Walder and what was left of his damn moron sons in S6e10) and Lady Stoneheart’s targeting Freys for extermination (see S7e1, Arya dispensing justice to Freys for Red Wedding guest right violation, murder and treason).
After those “transplanted” events, it felt like Arya’s storylines on the show from S7e2 to the end were exclusively the creations of the showrunners, with no input from the Big Kahuna whatsoever.
I am NOT whinging or bashing. I loved many of Arya’s show-only scenes in the final two seasons, e.g., sparring with Brienne in S7e4, and reuniting and reconciling with Sandor in S8. I just felt that Arya was kind of relegated to a supporting role in the Sansa-LF WF storyline in S7. I also sensed that the Paranoid Sansa vs. Psycho Arya enmity and LF “plan” to pit sister vs. sister lacked GRRM’s signature logic and cohesiveness. (Does that make sense? If not, I’ll try to explain later.)
Furthermore, the showrunners themselves have described how they decided Arya would be the one to kill the NK – who is a show-only creation. I am also 99% positive that GRRM will not employ the tired old cliched “mothership” device, i.e., killing the alien queen or destroying the alien mothership automatically deactivates all of its drones. Surely GRRM has in mind something more novel and complex – and perhaps more nuanced – for the WWs.
From book readers’ comments, I sense that the books have not set up Arya as the hero who will defeat the AotD by taking out a WW in single combat. Some readers have remarked that Arya’s assassin training has little to do with preparing her to fight the undead.
Maybe she will be a cog in a collective effort. I don’t know. (I thought Sam and Bran would play key roles; that did not happen on the show.)
I am just assuming from the showrunners statements that GRRM did not provide even the broad strokes of how the decisive encounter with the WWs will play out, and they decided on their own to designate Arya as the hero because [paraphrasing] Jon was too obvious a choice, and they wanted to subvert expectations.
Oh, I also wonder if sailing off to explore the unknown frontier is a GRRM-type resolution for his version of Arya. Many book readers have opined that this would not conform with her path in the books. I wouldn’t know one way or the other.
If you’ll excuse the pun, all of this suggests that “Arya’s book journey” is an open book. I am not so sure there’s anything we can glean from the show.
Q for Book Readers: Is there anything in the 5 books + “Mercy” chapter that you think foreshadows or sets up Arya’s post-Braavos storylines and ultimate destination?
ash,
Do yourself a favor and start looking at Seasons 7 and 8 combined as one extra-long season. They add up to more than the sum of their parts. If they had waited on airing S7 and saved it for 2019 to air alongside S8, I guarantee you there wouldn’t be a quarter as many complaints saying that it was rushed. S8, as it was, began with what should have been the third act of S7.
Farimer123,
This is true.
mau,
Summer got ten episodes in the form of S1. One of the first scenes in S2E1 is a raven arriving in King’s Landing from the Citadel declaring summer to be officially over.
Autumn got fifty episodes in the form of five ten-episode seasons, S2 to S6, appropriate for the War of the Five Kings. One of the last scenes in S6E10 is a raven arriving in Winterfell from the Citadel declaring winter to have officially begun.
Finally, just as summer got 10 episodes, so did winter. The first three episodes of S8 are the natural climax to the seven episodes of S7, just like a typical ten-episode season. It’s symmetrical, neat, and clearly had been envisioned for quite a while.
Ten Bears,
By his own admission, D&D’s admission, and the admission of others who work with him, GRRM makes a majority of his story up as he goes along. I think the only character who’s endpoint he’s absolutely dead-certain on is Bran’s. Therefore, trying to say for certain if Arya’s endpoint will be the same in the book is a fool’s errand. He may have a general sense of the arc of her character, like the emotional journey she’s meant to go on, but in terms of concrete specifics, chances are he doesn’t know yet. To be not-so-kind, if he knew what the hell he was doing, he would have done it by now.
Efi, I meant no offense, and I apologize for any and all I may have given you. I do ask you please to consider the context and content of your statements.
This is a forum for news and dialog concerning Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, meant for fans of both. I read the posts and comments because I value the observations other persons here make, both the headline posters and us commenters. While I hardly expect every comment to be positive, you are one of the few who consistently posts many very negative comments. You should reasonably expect some negative reaction for constantly doing that here.
It is now May; Game of Thrones ended almost a year ago. Yet you made a very negative comment, based on nothing more than your speculative and wishful opinion, which contains a serious criticism of the producers: they had failed to adapt a character’s story properly. You have absolutely no factual basis of any kind whatsoever for your criticism; in fact, your opinion actively contradicts the few known facts, and you implied the rest of us should not believe what GRRM himself says about the matter.
If you come to this site, almost a year after the story ended, and claim it was ended improperly, you may very well offend persons who do not agree with you. (And, when you are called on such offensive behavior, hand-waving that your serious and unfounded criticism is “just an opinion” doesn’t help.) Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. You are not in any way obligated to share it with anyone who may not agree with it, and this site is a very good place to find persons who will disagree strongly with unfounded criticisms of Game of Thrones.
Was everything about the show perfect? No, nothing done by humans can ever be. Did D&D ask for the job? Yes, they did. Were they handsomely rewarded for their great efforts? Yes, they were. None of that justifies completely unfounded — indeed, contra-factual! — criticism of their work.
I may simply stop reading and responding to your comments, which is too bad, because I find with much of what you write to be witty and informative. That would be my loss, but I’m willing to take it to avoid the stream of un-constructive negativity you continue directing at something I really enjoyed.
Again, I mean no offense, but you can’t keep posting comments like some of yours and also expect no backlash to result.
ash,
…. A: “Trant didn’t have a sword. Or armor. Only a wooden stick.” [Sandor smiles with barely-disguised pride.]
———
Ash: ”Ha! You know, you could be a great screen writer with this kinda stuff!”
—————-
Well, thanks!
I’ve gotta say (again), I wish the show had an explicit callback in S8 to Arya’s swordfighting tutorial with Sandor in S4e5. (Link to video below)
It would’ve been nice to know that the manner in which Arya dispatched Meryn F*cking Trant in S5e10 was deliberate rather than coincidental on the part of the writers. At the time and place Arya chose for her encounter, Trant did not have “armor and a big f*cking sword.” Arya informed MFT he was on her kill list “for killing Syrio Forel,”
when Syrio “didn’t have a sword, or armor; only a wooden stick.”
The symmetry was perfect.
A ten-second exchange between Arya and Sandor in S8 about MFT’s demise would’ve been delightful – and would’ve confirmed that Meryn Trant’s dead because Arya learned a valuable lesson from Sandor, and that this had been intentional on the part of the writers. (I’m unaware of anything suggesting that it was in fact intentional.)
I’m reminded scenes in other movies, e.g., in Kingdom of Heaven, when acolytes and commoners were hastily anointed as “knights” right before a battle. Immediately after instructing them how they were expected to conduct themselves and commanding them to rise, the lord whacked them across the face, “so you won’t forget” the lessons.
Sandor did the same thing: Whacked Arya across the face before handing Needle back to her.
I like to think she never forgot Sandor’s lessons, and that’s why she was able to take out MFT. I also like to think that she learned the harsh lesson that even a superior swordsman like Syrio Forel could be killed by a putz like MFT because Syrio didn’t have a sword or armor, only a wooden stick – and it was poetic justice that Arya, posing as one of “three girl whores,” turned the tables on MFT when he didn’t have a sword or armor, only a wooden stick.
All of those parallels would have made for an enjoyable bit of dialogue between mentor and former student. (I mean, there was enough time in S8 for a third callback to the still punchlineless “jackass and honeycomb” joke. A few seconds to reminisce about Meryn F*cking Trant would have dovetailed nicely with Arya & Sandor’s reconciliation scenes in S8.)
———-
Arya & Sandor S4e5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRY4Mpmfk1o
at 3:10 – 3:55
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Look, I promise you I loved the ending just as much as you did. But you might be overreacting a bit to Efi. They’re entitled to their opinion just as much as you or I (even if they are completely wrong 🤪) so long as they present it in a civil and respectful manner. So, not Mango, whenever they talk about latter GoT.
So what if a piece of art or entertainment resonated with you but didn’t with someone else? If you feel their arguments stem from some kind of fallacy or injustice, feel free to debate with them. But maybe it just didn’t land with them. There’s millions of people who hated S8 – are you going to fight them all? If you need to, take comfort in knowing there’s countless millions more people who loved S8.
Farimer123,
Oh, I think you’re absolutely right that “trying to say for certain if Arya’s endpoint will be the same in the book is a fool’s errand.”. I was also suggesting that trying to map out even in general terms how she gets from where the books left off (TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter) to that illusive endpoint may be a an exercise in futility. As a pre-books reader, I wouldn’t really know. As I explained above, I just got the sense from the show that GRRM hadn’t even sketched out her post-Braavos story lines.
Your observation that ”By his own admission, D&D’s admission, and the admission of others who work with him, GRRM makes a majority of his story up as he goes along,” would certainly conform with my speculative impressions based on the show’s post-Braavos storylines that they did not originate from GRRM.
I take it that in your view, Big G hasn’t dropped any conspicuous hints in the books about Arya’s endpoint or her journey to get there. From the “Mercy” chapter (only), it appeared to me that
. So from my limited knowledge of the books, I’ve got no idea where he’s going with her story. 🤥
Farimer123,
” There’s millions of people who hated S8 – are you going to fight them all? If you need to, take comfort in knowing there’s countless millions more people who loved S8.”
I hated that three years ago Giancarlo Stanton had 59 homeruns going into the final few games of the baseball season with a chance of breaking Babe Ruth’s NL record (60 in 1927)* and Roger Maris’s Major League Record (61 in 1961)*, but finished at 59.
Still good enough for third all-time, and an MVP season in which he led all of baseball in RBIs, homeruns, and slugging percentage.
Any minor disappointment over the last week of the season did not diminish my enjoyment watching him launch 59 moonshots out of stadiums and into the stratosphere, and laser beams that shattered scoreboards. It was f*cking unbelievable.
(Too bad the Many-Faced God prematurely ended Stanton’s stellar 2014 season by trying to turn him into a Faceless Man, but that’s another story.)
The point is that just like with GoT, even if I hoped the ending would be a little better, the experience as a whole was richly rewarding for a dedicated fan.
——
* Non-steroid records. I don’t count Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa or Mark McGuire’s juiced-up steroid-era season totals.
Ten Bears,
A book reader here addresses Arya’s endgame in the books and why they feel her sailing for unknown/uncharted lands may suit her story thematically. This reader also goes over where they feel Arya’s story started to diverge from the books.
In general, while I personally am not over the moon about some of these characters’ endings, I am inclined to believe the main characters will land at the same destination based on commentary from D&D and GRRM about how they plan to have them reach the same endings in the show as they do in the books. However, I don’t think that means all of the details need to be the same, there may be some differences in the set-ups, and there are still (at least) two books to go.
There are already divergences. Sansa’s storyline on the show merged with Jeyne Poole’s in the books. She’s currently nowhere near the Wall while Theon is helping Jeyne Poole escape Bolton-run Winterfell (even jumping off the battlements with Jeyne rather than Sansa). In the sample chapter of TWOW, Theon I, Jeyne (under the guise of Arya) is on her way to the Wall (sent by Stannis). In the books, I think Sansa’s story will focus on her sharpening her mind, utilizing those skills, working to realize what is going on around her, and her story will eventually to Winterfell (which I think the show tried to also achieve even when merging her story with Jeyne’s) — but probably not in the way season 6 had her do it.
(From GRRM in the unlisted video ‘A Different Purpose’ for 408 on Game of Throne’s official YouTube channel — will link if asked! I’d link here but I can only include one link per post to avoid moderation):
And for another, there’s no Night King in the books (killing the leader to kill them all) or any one leader of the Others (White Walkers), who are alive rather than dead and described differently between the show and the books.
I think I’ve said over and over that I expect the bare-bones of the show’s story will be about the same (for the main characters at least) but I’m pretty sure there will be differences (especially with the loss in magic between the book and the show) in some of the in-between details.
Adrianacandle,
Typo!
*[…]what is going on around her, and her story will eventually *lead to Winterfell[…]
Farimer123,
You make a lot of sense there and suspect they’d be less complaints, if, and only if, than can manage to use that extra time to fill in the gaps that are nec for a coherent story.
And I also would like some hint that Bran has some powers of leadership that would make him king material, because that doesn’t come across at all in the show.
Yeah, this is what I’ve seen and experienced (and I’m very sorry for your experience and that of your friend’s daughter. I can see how advances in social media would make this bullying just about inescapable because it provides a whole new 24/7 platform for this abuse that is accessible to the whole school and the world). The Mean Girl bullying seems like a sudden turn out of nowhere and while it’s not physical, it is certainly lasting. I’ve never forgotten my own experience in grade 5 and especially in junior high and high school, it was always there — like a cautionary tale. I think that is reflective of some of the damage it does? And that can impact other good relationships, I think.
I think I was lucky in that my own experience didn’t repeat after grade 5 (although, I felt like I experienced an adult version of it in some ways when I was doing my BEd but that’s a bit different from experiencing it in grade school. Still, lucky I didn’t have this happen in jr high or high school — or how your friend’s daughter is experiencing it.)
But it is really rough, the damage is lasting and enduring.
*To clarify, the differences I’m talking about are more appearance-based 🙂 (they “are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”) You can find more info here!
Adrianacandle,
Thx! I’ll read that Arya books v. show thing you linked.
Adrianacandle,
There is going to be some mechanism at play in the Battle of Winterfell that is going to allow the living to defeat the WW there, once and for all, in a massive decisive battle. That much I can surmise nearly for certain. And then after that maybe the remaining quarter of the book will be dedicated to everything that comes after, including Dany’s destruction of KL, her assasination, and the aftermath for all our main characters.
Judging by everything I’ve read from D&D and their talks with GRRM, and how their vision of the show changed somewhat around S3, the Battle of Winterfell is an enormous story beat that they’ve probably gotten from GRRM himself. Though details and minutiae are likely D&D’s, along with the idea of killing the leader.
But somehow, the outcome will be essentially the same as in the show. Winterfell will be subjected to an incredible assault and will nearly fall. However, it will ultimately stand firm, and the dead will be decisively vanquished there. The cost will be enormous, to the point where Dany will have effectively lost her numerical advantage over Cersei on land. One thing’s for sure: no way those icy fucks are making it past Winterfell. D&D apparently learned a long time ago: Winterfell is where the final battle will be fought.
Hell, maybe GRRM will have a NK in all but name. Potato, potahtoe. And that pseudo-NK will serve as the arch nemesis of the 3ER. “Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow” from Dany’s House of the Undying visions. Maybe he’ll be astride some kind of dragon of his own – again from Dany’s vision. “From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire…” Hmmm. Sounds more than a little like Viserion and what happened to Eastwatch. And the only reason D&D had the leader of the WW be the NK instead of this guy is because it included a plot point that would’ve taken too much of a detour to delve into sufficiently, what with the stone dragon and all.
This is as valid speculation as any other at this point (we’re sort of in a Schrodinger’s Theory circumstance here) but we don’t really know any of this as fact (that D&D learned Winterfell is where this battle will be fought, that the Others won’t make it south, etc). It’s still unconfirmed speculation at this point. A battle at Winterfell may very well occur, it may be devastating, but it also might not be the last of the Others.
For example, the parts of Dany’s visions you cited have many different interpretations attributed to them (“Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow” has also been interpreted to mean Stannis being revealed as the false Azor Ahai, particularly since “slayer of lies” follows this trio of these grouped visions). People have been poring over these characters’ visions, dreams, and prophecies for 20 years! 🙂
Magic (and prophecy) have also been incredibly downsized in the show from the books and this storyline in particular is completely submerged in the magic and mystical elements in ASOIAF’s universe (as is Bran’s and to an extent, Dany’s). Euron is worse than Ramsay and Joffrey combined in the books and he is a secondary character whose differences between the show and the books may make a big difference, as D&D and GRRM have said in regard to secondary characters. There have already been great divergences between book and screen in which the basic plot beats are the same but there are important differences too. Plus, GRRM may seem to be going for some ambiguity over straight good vs. evil based on some of his comments:
I’m reminded of the circumstances under which Jon is assassinated in the show vs the books. It’s not a straight bad guy vs. good guy situation. While the mutineers are bigots who dislike the wildlings, wanted them all to die, and they were certainly against Jon’s efforts to bring them south of the Wall in the books as well, this wasn’t the sole reason they mutinied against him.
Bowen Marsh, the head mutineer and Jon’s biggest source of opposition, had some valid objections (re: food and resource shortage, concern about aiding Stannis instigating retaliation from the Iron Throne) to which Jon gave him reasons why the wildlings need to be south of the Wall but not answers to Bowen’s concerns. In ADWD, Jon’s assassination was the result of a culmination of choices that he made, many of which interfered with the affairs of the realm, and risked wrath against the Watch. The mutineers act against Jon when Jon reads the Pink Letter aloud, seemingly confirming all of the mutineer’s fears, and not only that, Jon publicly breaks his neutrality and declares war against Ramsay.
Jon’s assassination wasn’t simply because he let the wildlings pass through the Wall and the mutineers lured Jon out into the open with the false news Benjen had returned (as what happened in the show). The circumstances in the books are quite a bit more complex with both sides having compelling reason for their decisions.
The basic plot beats for this storyline were the same but it also was quite a bit more nuanced and ambiguous in the show.
I think the bare bones will be the same but I think there will be important differences too. I don’t think the Others will be defeated in one battle, we don’t know specifically what D&D learned from GRRM (other than details they and those associated with the show have told us), and there have already been some important differences between book and show while the basic direction as been the same.
There’s so much unknown at this point, especially in regard to the Others and the more mystical forces at work. Neither of us really know.
Adrianacandle,
Sigh, another typo! Cursed to see them only seconds before the 5-minute editing window closes:
*The basic plot beats for this storyline were the same but it also was quite a bit more nuanced and ambiguous in the *books.
*seemingly confirming all of the *mutineers’ fears
Oh! And if you find the OP doesn’t quite answer the dilemma, they explain why here 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Saying “the Others defeated in one battle” makes it sound a lot easier than it was (and presumably will be). It’s the battle, make or break, do or die. The battle for all humanity. Potentially the end of the world. And it’ll probably make the Battle of the Blackwater look like a playground fistfight in comparison (just like the show did). And there will be a good amount of drama beforehand dealing with the question of whether warring humans can possibly unite to face a common existential threat, especially from something that wasn’t even supposed to exist beyond the stories of wet nurses.
If the WW can take down Winterfell, the great ancestral stronghold of the northerners, who unquestionably understand and respect the power of winter more than anyone, then the rest of Westeros would be pitifully easy prey, especially as the undead army would get exponentially larger the further south they travelled. The living won’t get another chance to stop them beyond Winterfell.
Several characters, including Tyrion, have noted a strange, reassuring power about Winterfell, like it’s not the greatest fortress that ever was, but there a man can feel safe and protected. Seeing how it was easily sacked by Theon early on in the series, I believe the time will come late in the series for it to shine. The reverse is true for King’s Landing: while it was also subjected to a great assault early in the series and nearly fell, the time will come later for it to be easily sacked – by a Targaryen, like how last time it was the Lannisters sacking a Targaryen-held KL.
Adrianacandle,
I have to thank you. I just finished reading that Arya books vs. show commentary (“Arya’s arc in the show compared to the books – why does it not feel right”) along with the commentary it referenced and quoted (“8.3 Was the Payoff of the Show’s Mishandling of Arya”) They were both interesting and well-thought out.
My first reaction was to try to give a shout out to talvikorppi, because the common refrain was that the show overlooked the complexity of Arya’s character in the books and turned her into what talvikorppi described: Arya Super Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess ™️ aka ASNAWP – more like a cartoon superhero than the traumatized girl portrayed by GRRM.
Both of these book readers’ commentaries, and posted responses, singled out a quote by D.B. Weiss that (they felt) indicated that the showrunners misinterpreted Arya’s character:
Weiss: “In a way, Sansa has to face harder choices. Arya always has a pretty clear path, like: “What’s a cool, badass thing to do and I’m going to do that thing.”
These book readers objected to that characterization.
There were lots of other informative points and critiques. as you probably know because you referred me to the commentaries.
… I guess I ought to read the books and find out for myself…
Farimer123,
Well, having the White Walkers defeated in a single battle on the show… did make it seem too easy :/ That it is “the battle, make or break, do or die” and “the battle for all humanity” and “potentially the end of the world” is why having them defeated in the course of a single battle felt a bit too easy to me.
When we had this discussion (maybe) two weeks ago (?), I think I brought up the possibility that it may be that everyone thinks the Others are over and done with at a point. However, this might not have totally eliminated the threat. It might not be solvable through one battle (or even battle) alone. Maybe this is where the magic and prophecy and more mystical elements come in, elements that are relevant to the mysterious (and probably dangerous) magic surrounding Jon, Bran, and Dany in particular. But I think it will come at a heavy price and it’s possible that it won’t be a forever solution.
It also may have an additional element: negotiation has been brought up before by ASOIAF theorists and negotiation with the Others might play into this.
Negotiation is a big part of Jon’s story and development. Jon negotiates with Stannis, he negotiates with the wildlings. Jon hasn’t really dealt with things through war, he’s been in a battle but it was a battle the Night’s Watch nearly lost. When Jon actually does make the move to declare war (against Ramsay), it results in disaster. Jon doesn’t even manage to leave Castle Black before he’s shanked because this declaration is the final straw for the mutineers. Jon’s declaration of war endangers everything he built to prepare for the defense against the Others.
So I think it’s possible negotiation with the Others might figure into this and that they won’t totally be eliminated in a final battle forever. Maybe the deal they make only lasts for a certain amount of time (like 8,000 years — why are the Others marching now after thousands of years?) Perhaps there will still be a purpose for the Wall and the Night’s Watch in the end.
Who knows?
There was a line that was eliminated from the finale, something Tyrion tells Jon in the script for this episode: “Just because winter’s over doesn’t mean it won’t come again.”
Well, there is something magical about Winterfell, a lot of mystery and strangeness. Same with the weirwood (even Jaime gets a dose of weirwood strangeness when he has his bizarre weirwood stump dream) and this is very much a part of this universe, something that I think has a connection to the Others, to the Children of the Forest, to the Wall, to what Bran’s going through, to Bloodraven, to warging, to greenseeing, maybe even to dragons.
But I don’t think Winterfell’s magic is going to serve quite like a magical beacon that will be a primary factor in defeating the Others once and for all in a single battle. GRRM has said this:
This feels like Once Upon a Time’s mantra: “Magic always comes with a price.” (Which it did… sometimes in that show but my criticisms of OUAT aside!)
Maybe the Others can’t pass into Winterfell, maybe Winterfell serves as some kind of sanctuary and the battle must be fought around it. I don’t know. These are speculations upon speculations.
Ten Bears,
I’m glad you found it interesting! I thought that poster did a very nice job!
talvikorppi is who I thought of when reading this post 🙂 Show!Arya is pretty empowering in many ways but I think Book!Arya — while she’s a feisty, spirited girl (which, as this post notes, she somewhat returns to in Braavos as her time in Braavos offers her a period of healing) — she’s also a traumatized girl, a “child soldier” as this post puts it, who uses her list of names like a prayer or coping mechanism.
You should! I can even give you a list of names and terms to search for in e-book versions if you want to read only Arya chapters and references to Arya!
Farimer123,
Crap, I should amend this statement of mine!
*Well, having the White Walkers defeated in a single battle on the show… did make it seem too easy to me :/
(Also: if this resolution to the Long Night worked for you, I think that’s great and I’ve read various views on it and explanations as to why it both worked and didn’t work for various viewers! However, this is just my feeling on how the White Walker threat was dealt with — I’m not stating my view as fact or is the definitive anything because it’s absolutely not. I’m just one viewer, it’s not my story, I know as much as anyone else, and I have no authority over it whatsoever.)
Adrianacandle,
”I’m reminded of the circumstances under which Jon is assassinated in the show vs the books.”
Mind if I unroll a little tin foil before I go to bed?
At the risk of extrapolating too much from the show, and borrowing from other commenters’ theories…
• I think it’s a given there were intentional parallels between the stories of Dany and Jon. In the West, Red Priestess Melisandre (before waffling a bit in early S7), touted Jon as the Lord’s Chosen, while her counterpart in the East, Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara, pronounced Daenerys as the Lord’s Chosen.
• Jon was assassinated by stabbing. For whatever reason his body was neither interred nor cremated, and instead, some time later his lifeless corpse was resurrected by a Red Priestess.
• Daenerys was assassinated by stabbing. Her body conveniently disappeared from the scene of the crime, so no funeral pyre or burial. Her final resting place, if any, was left open-ended.
• I found it curious that Drogon flew off with Dany’s body. According to Sam, Drogon was last spotted flying East. Towards Volantis?
• Is there any reason Kinvara and her crew wouldn’t try to resurrect the Lord’s Chosen designated by their faction in the East?
(Incidentally, from Kinvara’s perspective “purifying nonbelievers by the thousands” with dragonfire was more a sacred rite than a horrific sin.)
• Jon’s corpse was brought back to life by the Lord of Light, for reasons never quite made clear. Wouldn’t a second life also be within the realm of possibility for Daenerys?
(Big G’s gotta have a few zingers left in his quiver, no?)
Ten Bears,
I’ve seen that theory! I’ve also seen the theory that Dany’s death is what ultimately keeps the Others at bay (for a time at least) and perhaps Nissa Nissa’s sacrifice was a limited-time only deal (8,000 years). Kevin has brought up one version of this theory (Dany’s soul may revitalize the defenses of the Wall/appease the Others but she must be there for 8,000 years, etc.) Lots of ways it could go, I think, but it seems possible Dany may get her own resurrection by her own cheerleader Red Witch.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
“If you come to this site, almost a year after the story ended, and claim it was ended improperly, you may very well offend persons who do not agree with you. (And, when you are called on such offensive behavior, hand-waving that your serious and unfounded criticism is “just an opinion” doesn’t help.) Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. You are not in any way obligated to share it with anyone who may not agree with it, and this site is a very good place to find persons who will disagree strongly with unfounded criticisms of Game of Thrones.”
Ohhhh, nice, Tensor! “Obligated”? Seriously?
So, according to you I should stay away from this site!
Are you a manager of the site?
Because I don’t see anywhere a warning “this site only accepts praising comments to D&D”
I hate it that you bring me into this discussion about D&D.
I have defended over and over again their choice to do whatever they wanted with the show. Book and show are separate in my mind and their creators are different people. But I reserve my right to have an opinion about their work. Their work is a public product anyway. That’s what happens to art when it’s public, it’s exposed to criticism.
The “unfounded” part though is not true and you know it. I used book evidence to explain why I don’t like Jamie’s season 8 arc.
If you discard that evidence, it’s ok, but that’s just you.
If there are significant differences between book and show and I am not just imagining things (which could be true as well) it will become apparent once WoW is out. Then we’ll know. I, too, am curious to know if my reading is right or wrong.
And I don’t think I am dictating to people what to think. Public statements of various people (the show-runners, creators, etc) serve a particular moment in time and a particular purpose. I see that they work for most of the audience, but they don’t work for me because I always search for that purpose behind the statement. You asked why I don’t take them seriously, I replied. I cannot be held accountable for responding honestly to you neither can I be accused because my opinion does not agree with yours or the majority’s for that matter. I am my own person.
Season 8 had some very good points (visuals imo; I really liked ep. 3). The political dialogs were good (but only confined to Tyrion and Varys). But others were, eh… imo much less than good.
Of course you may refrain from reading my posts. That’s entirely up to you. I always read your posts carefully and I enjoy them. But you come off too hard on people when you read something that you don’t like, and I don’t like that -it always gets me thinking “why do you do that?” So, instead of me disappearing from this site, how about you correcting this aspect of your online behavior? Because you’re a smart person (I see that in your posts) and smart persons should also be kinder to others. (aggressiveness doesn’t get you anywhere).
I just realized — happy May the 4th (May the Force), everyone!
Unrelated – does this place have a Discord? Would someone like to make one, seeing how the forums are dead?
Efi, I have to admit I enjoyed reading that embarrassing diatribe towards you, but this was one of my favorite parts. Apparently, you’re not obligated to share an opinion, but he’s obligated to read your opinion, get annoyed by it, and lash out about it. It just shows how thin-skinned he is when he hears something he disagrees with.
Also, he completely misinterpreted what I said earlier in the thread and acted like a jerk as a result of his misunderstanding, and when I clarified for him, he still doubled down instead of apologizing like any decent person would do.
He acts like some kind of gatekeeper for who is and isn’t a fan of the show. He’s done it to me more than once. It’s just a way of using a hobby or interest to attempt to elevate himself above other fans to give himself a sense of being superior, transforming his passion for the show into an ugly tool of self-inflation.
Hey folks, been a while since I popped in here, I hope everyone is doing well.
Ten Bears,
My personal guess, is that she will end up in the Riverlands post Braavos, but she will kill/show mercy to Cat/LSH rather than the Frey’s. Jaime and or Brienne will escape, but it will be Arya who ends that plot line. Her warging into Nymeria has to have some significance. After that, I really don’t know. She may become Christopher Columbus, but I can’t say that I found it particularly fitting, unlike Jon and Sansa’s endings. It didn’t really feel like a natural progression of anything, yes she went to Braavos, but she went for a particular reason, not because she wanted to explore.
I see people have been debating Jaime’s ending, I don’t have much to add, but I do resist the whole ‘we came into this world together we will leave together’ thing. There is the Weirwood dream, and the Valonqar prophecy, but for some reason people choose to take Cersei’s word on this. The woman who is literally wrong about everything is supposed to be able to predict the circumstances of her own death? I’m not sure about that. If she is right, well there is a first time for everything, she gets a gold star. Perhaps they will die at the same time in different parts of Westeros, I’m actually leaning towards the Valonqar being neither Jaime or Tyrion.
Even if we ingnore what Martin said many times (even just before S8 started, that this season was based on his plans from 20 years ago) thinking that the ending of the show was mostly D&D’s idea just doesn’t make much sense.
They are two powerful Hollywood writers. I feel their writing instincts are much closer to Russo brothers and J.J. Abrams and someone like that. We saw that with Beyond the Wall. Huge fun dumb adventure.
It just doesn’t make any sense that they would turn fan favourite into failed saviour, that they would make other fan favourite kill her and then be exiled, that they would make Jaime return to Cersei or put Bran on the Throne.
None of these things feel like something they would do. It feels more like typical GRRM’s tragedy.
Jenny,
Someone else being the valonqar has been my idea too for some time but I am not so sure about it anymore. Cersei thinks that the valoqar will be Tyrion, so there’s a catch in-universe there. I do think that Jamie will return to her though, but not on the same terms.
mau,
And huge problem is that the books are not finished so there are so many theories. It’s easier for some people to think that D&D were wrong or that they just wanted to ignore Martin’s plans.
I mean if they wanted to ignore Martin’s plans they would never in a million years put Bran on the throne. LOL So you think they ignored all these amazing things GRRM told them, but decided to keep King Bran, plot point that even book purists thought has nothing to do with the books, until D&D and Isaac confirmed it.
Even if Martin completes ASOIAF, conspiracy theories in this fandom are so out of control, that they will believe that HBO and D&D forced him to have the same ending as the show.
They believed for so many years that HBO forced him not to realise TWOW.
Mr Derp,
Thanks, Mr Derp! You know, English not being my native language I sometimes have doubts whether I understand well what I am reading. This part made an impression to me, too.
I don’t want to be hard on Tensor. I am rather old by now and my experience tells me that apologizing and saying you’re sorry is not the most difficult part.
The most difficult part is to actually recognize that you’ve done or said something wrong and do something about it.
In fact I think that since humanity invented words like “sorry”, or “I apologize” or “forgive me” (tbh they all put the burden on the other party), it’s become easier and easier to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
The point is not to apologize, because words are easy. The point is to correct whatever is wrong, but actions are much harder than words, so nothing much changes, not in real life and certainly much less in an online environment, where such things are rather to be expected.
But I’m here consciously, so having patience I think is the best I can do.
Efi,
Yeah, it would be weird if he never saw her again, he mentions her in his last ADWD chapter, he says that he will have to face her at some point. Granted GRRM put that in at the request of his editor (they wanted a bit of a character round up at the end of the book) but GRRM wouldn’t put it in for nothing. I’d guess at him going back for Tommen, or when fAegon arrives. The only way that they die together is if Jaime kills her or causes her death. She just can’t be right about it, not without some twist. She is wrong about everything. She certainly won’t be sending Bronn to kill her brothers, since she wants him dead too.
It’s possible that Tyrion is her red herring, and Jaime is ours, people just assume its him, but not necessarily, the use of Valyrian is interesting too, it could even be fAegon or Dany if Valyrian is genderless.
Jaime, Cersei and Euron are the characters with the most potential to have different stories, since I think they will die much earlier than in the show. They are all dying though.
Edit: I’d actually add Bran to that too, and Sansa. They will end up as rulers but lord knows how they get there.
I’m another who hasn’t read Fire & Blood yet. I bought it pretty much when it came out too but it’s sat on my window sill collecting dust. Maybe it’s the size of the book or the fact GOT has ended/still not sign of WoW that has dampened by motivation.
That said, I recently finished the Mystery Knight, in my opinion it’s the best of the Dunk and Egg graphic novels.
• What’s a “Discord”?
• The Forums are not “dead.” The Moderators had to disinfect the Forum Section from bots a while back. That’s been done.
• It’s now only a matter of clarifying the Registration and Activation process for commenters so anybody who wants to can readily sign in, and create and reply to forum section topics.
mau,
I totally disagree with the JJ comparison. Watch some of Benioffs movies like 25th Hour or The Kiterunner and Brothers. Those movies are very personal family dramas. His novels are the same way.
Efi,
”Because I don’t see anywhere a warning “this site only accepts praising comments to D&D”
———-
Didn’t you see the Moderation Policy that requires all commenters to prostrate themselves and chant “Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for 8 brilliant seasons, brilliant writing and a brilliant conclusion; I’ll always be grateful,” and carve those words into our foreheads?
Efi,
They were satisfying for me. Nikolaj has defended his ending tons of times even retweeting articles defending his ending.
Efi,
I didn’t know that English was not your first language, so that says a great deal about how well you can articulate your thoughts in another language!
I appreciate your efforts to be patient with the negativity. That’s a very tolerant point of view. I usually don’t let the antagonism get to me, but it’s been rather acrimonious here lately.
“One of us! One of us!”
“Gooble gobble! Gooble gobble!”
Fireandblood87,
Funny thing is I did read all books that Benioff wrote and they are great. I find some lines that he wrote for Troy to be great but I know he never had full creative control there.
Like this line:
“The Gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal. Because any moment might be our last. Everything’s more beautiful because we’re doomed.”
Benioff is a great writer who suffered from character assassination from angry online mob. But I’m sure he will get his “redemption” in future projects.
Fireandblood87,
Maybe I didn’t choose my words well, my comparison with J.J. Abrams is that when they get do to whatever they wanted with GoT D&D often did these crowd pleasing moments like Beyond the Wall.
Putting Bran on the throne and making Dany fail is not something any writer who wants crowd pleasing ending would do. And if they didn’t ignore GRRM’s plans when it comes to Bran(which was the most unpopular plot development) I don’t see why would they ignore his plans with Dany, Jon, Cersei, Jaime, Sansa and Arya.
Ten Bears,
A Discord server, you know, the app?
My account still haven’t been activated on the forum yet, despite one of the mods here claiming that it had been. So my only way of discussing GoT in a place that isn’t toxic as all fuck is in the comments of the stories on this website.
Jack Bauer 24,
Speaking of discussing GoT in places that aren’t toxic as all fuck, hey Jack! My forum account still doesn’t work. You mentioned a place where the discussion on GoT leans positive. Could I comment my email on here so you could send it to me?
Farimer123,
I dont know about Jack but r/naath on Reddit is positive and not toxic fan community.
mau,
I don’t think that Beyond the Wall was crowd pleasing. Many hated it.
Jenny,
Thanks for replying.
• As much as I like Arya – and I have not read the books yet (except for the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter and a few other passages) – I found it jarring that right after (show!) Arya reunited with her family and stressed that the last of the Starks needed to stick together, she was in such a rush to get away from WF, and then go on a sea cruise. She declined Jon’s invitation to visit him at the Wall and didn’t even offer to accompany him on the trip to CB. After seven seasons forced to live as a virtual refugee, one might think she’d want to kick back for a while…
A reader’s commentary linked by adrianacandle posited that book! Arya longed to be home, though she did have more connection to seafaring than on the show.
Perhaps GRRM will plan some kind of b*tt******t ending for Arya in which she can’t go home again or stay with her family, and her only option to avoid mortal peril is to disappear by sailing off to parts unknown. Who knows.
(I did however like her Stark sigil ship with direwolf prow. I’d love to have a radio-controlled scale model of it for my adult toy collection.)
• ”I’m actually leaning towards the Valonqar being neither Jaime or Tyrion.”
I’m with you on this! I’m still hoping Big G is planning a twist on a twist, e.g., Cersei is convinced Tyrion is the prophesied “little brother,” book readers think it’s really going to be Jaime, and then it will turn out to be a different candidate who actually fulfills the terms of the prophecy better than either of the Lannister boys.
As I recall, shortly before Season 8, I posted my final “Valonqar Sweepstakes” odds, with detailed explanations for my selections. The nominees and post positions (starting with a dark horse candidate who surged to the top in the final tally before the season started), were something like this:
#1 Jon Snow aka Aegon Targaryen 3:1
#2 Sandor Clegane 4:1
#3 Jaime Lannister 9:2
#4 Tyrion Lannister 5:1
#5 Euron Greyjoy 25:1
(I did not have Random Brick #434 on my roster of entrants, and took a ribbing for it. 😬)
Let me see if I can retrieve my prior oddsmaking explanations, or reconstruct them.
I really do think Big G’s got a semantic trick or two up his sleeves, and that you’re justified in “leaning towards the Valonqar being neither Jaime or Tyrion.”
(To be continued. Maybe.)
Might I suggest emailing Sue or the other site administrators using the “Contact Us” option under the scroll-down “Menu” on the left side of the first page of each WoW post?
I’ll do it later if you’d like.
I was able to register for the Forum section a while back, but I’m aware that many other commenters have had recurring problems trying to register and activate.
Farimer123,
” A Discord server, you know, the app?”
No, I’m afraid I’m totally clueless.
The only “Discord” I’m familiar with is “Q” from Star Trek: The Next Generation reincarnated as a cartoon character, “Discord,” in “My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.”
(Recently, I was babysitting for my little niece with the TV on in the background, when I recognized a distinctive voice and thought to myself: “WTF? Q???” It turns out that John de Lancie, who guest-started as “Q” on ST:TNG from 1987 to 1994, is the voice actor for “Discord,” with the same mischievous personality as Captain Picard’s frenemy “Q.”)
The LightKing,
“Lots of cunts”
Ten Bears,
I agree with you about the Funko figures, tho I did find a cool one of Dany sitting on a dragon that I still have out I also have the stamps in a frame, and most of the Dark Horse action figures. My fav of all time is Hodor with Bran on his back. I also really like Dany with a box for the three eggs. Like the others too, tho I wish they had done a decent one of Cersei, one where she is not scowling. I still have these up on my shelves. Have thought about putting them back in their boxes so I have room for more books, but I still think they look cool.
I remember last year people were so angry that they were going to get rid of all their GOT stuff. I think thats an over reaction, and want to keep them, they just don’t all need to be out.
I also have the photo book and costume book. Been browsing through them now and again. Just lovely work.
Jenny,
Re: Valonqar
”It’s possible that Tyrion is her red herring, and Jaime is ours, people just assume its him, but not necessarily, the use of Valyrian is interesting too, it could even be fAegon or Dany if Valyrian is genderless….”
• You’ve touched on one of the many reasons why, as alluded to in my 5:34 pm comment, I installed Jon Snow as the prohibitive 3:1 favorite in the “Valonqar Sweepstakes” right before Post Time.
The use of a Valyrian word indicated that the Valonqar will come from a Valyrian family. Aegon Targaryen, the little brother of Rhaegar Targaryen’s two sons, fits the bill.
I don’t know about fAegon’s family history, so I don’t know if he qualifies.
• I’ve discounted the notion that “Valonqar” is genderless and that the designated strangler could therefore be Dany, Arya or some other female.
It’s my understanding that its translation is “little brother,” and not the gender-neutral “little sibling” or “younger sibling.”
Moreover, the prophecy uses the masculine term “his,” as in the Valonqar will “wrap his hands” around Cersei’s pale white throat.
nvm.
Efi,
The point is not to apologize, because words are easy. The point is to correct whatever is wrong, but actions are much harder than words, so nothing much changes, not in real life and certainly much less in an online environment, where such things are rather to be expected.
Exactly. Its why I don’t make kids ‘say you are sorry’ but to think about what they can do to be kinder or more helpful. Actions are harder, but if they were taught young, it would be easeir to do. Coz there have been so many people in the world that use sorry to get away with whatever they want.
And by the way you have nothing to apologize about; I cheered when I read your post.
But I’m here consciously, so having patience I think is the best I can do yes
Ten Bears,
Jenny,
Re: Valonqar. You guys might be interested in this on the ASOIAF wiki — it’s a list of popularly theorized valonqar candidates with point-by-point write-ups of supporting evidence for each (Tyrion, Jaime, Sandor Clegane, Tommen, and goes over the possibility of a female valonqar like Arya) 🙂
Welcome back Jenny
Arya’s show end to me was the same as Alice in Wonderland the movie. They both sailed away showing their independence and not settling on a role as a lady. As Alice thought of 6 impossible things before breakfast, Arya wanted to see what was west of Westeros because no one knew the answer. She wanted to get the most out of life before her death finally said “today”
It was hard to read foreshadowing for Arya’s story in the book. It was mostly a search of her self discovery with her becoming comfortable in her own “face” as you might say. I do think GRRM has some awesome things in mind for her FM skills. I think the foreshadowing has the most to do with saving Jon in some way or teaming up with Jon to help the Starks using her FM skills. She won’t be a lady at the end, that’s for sure. She will be independent and reject the predetermined High born lady role that she was born into. She will find strength in knowing herself and no longer be worried about others calling her horse face or other names. Whether she sails away is hard to say.
Adrianacandle,
Well, if I had my way, Arya would be YMBQ* + Valonqar + TPTWP + QitN + AA
* After the Cersei’s S1 scenes with Robert and then with Ned revealing how Lyanna’s ghost continued to haunt Cersei’s marriage, and then the first ToJ flashback with an actress as Lyanna not dissimilar in appearance to Maisie Williams aka the Many-Faced Goddess, I was hoping Arya would show up looking like Lyanna’s doppelgänger just to freak out Cersei.
(As I understand it, Arya’s resemblance to her Aunt Lyanna was noted in the books; the show didn’t address this, except perhaps in the casting of Aisling F. as Lyanna.)
However, I’m told that there’s no indication in the books that Lyanna and Cersei ever met. Which is kind of a shame because I’d imagine that Cersei was none too pleased that the Stark girl had stolen the heart of Prince Rhaegar, and then even in death stole the heart of King Robert.
A visit from Lyanna’s apparition could’ve been a fun waking dream sequence if Cersei were able to recognize her romantic rival.
Or, after Lyanna’s “taking” from Cersei her two potential husbands, returning in the form of Lyanna 2.0 to take whatever left that Cersei held dear would’ve been my fanfic fulfillment of the YMBQ prophecy.
#ASNAWP
Adrianacandle,
I can’t access that ASOIAF wicki site without agreeing to their “Cookies” policy.
mau,
I just spent an evening browsing r/naath and r/asoiafcirclejerk, and I gotta say it was nice. I won’t participate in it because I’ve kinda sworn off Reddit. The website as a whole is little more than a gigantic mob of teenage boys and maladjusted adults, and it was having a corrosive effect on my mind.
But it was nice, seeing that not everyone was crazy. Know any other good GoT subreddits that aren’t toxic as all fuck? 😉
I screenshot the page if you’d still like to access it 🙂
Re: Lyanna and Arya. Yeah, I believe there are mentions in the books that Arya looks quite a bit like Lyanna. One instance I remember is while Bran has his Three-Eyed Raven visions into the past, he mistakes Lyanna for Arya:
And this:
Yes, with Cersei and Lyanna, I don’t think they ever formally met. I remember that she even has disdain for Robert in part because Robert killed Rhaegar.
I too miss Game of Thrones. It was more than television, more than a movie. Executed as a long-form film, I thought I was watching weekly TV until I realized it was something greater. When did I realize this? I don’t know. But somewhere along the way I found myself caring for these characters and this story much more than is usual, even for other great entertainment. It stayed with me, called to me. It was more than entertainment; it caught my soul.
Why? That’s a good question.
Its plot moves in lyrical ways reminiscent sometimes of an ancient epic, sometimes of Shakespeare, sometimes of cinema, sometimes of a forgotten history. So there’s the narrative, multifaceted, with its many heroes and parallel struggles, chapters within chapters lyrically presented as scenes and episodes and seasons, now all tied seamlessly together in a 73-hour tale. That lyrical quality – the quality of the writing – was some of it, surely. Many layers of meaning can be discerned through its imagery.
Yet it was the performance of it all, all of it, the acting, the production, the directing, all of it catching lightning in a bottle for a decade of magic that comes along in a tale only rarely in culture and in life. I really cared – still do – about these characters and their world. The show brought me to the books, which I binged and loved. But there’s no question I cared more for the show, with its embodied nature, and its transcendent score. John Williams was an essential part of why Star Wars changed my adolescent life in 1977, and Ramin Djawadi has been essential to why Game of Thrones can effect within me the deep power of myth.
It’s all of these things and more. Ultimately, a mystery. A song of ice and fire indeed.
Ten Bears,
I can’t remember clearly, but I’m sure Maggy the Frog’s origin is somehow revealed in the books, Maggy is actually the word maegi gone wrong. Maybe the use of Valyrian is simply because of her native language, but GRRM probably wouldn’t use it for no reason. By the way, I just looked at her wiki page, and Jeyne Westerling (Talisa in the show) is directly descended from Maggy the Frog, through her mother Sybell Spicer. I have no idea what that means, but its an odd connection.
Anyway, my absolute guess at this point is Euron, perhaps explaining his bizarre final appearance in the show, he might have something to do with Jaime and Cersei’s deaths.
Tron79,
Thank you!
I agree with this, the comparison to AIW is nice too. Thinking back, nothing in her story pointed towards that ending. And as Ten Bears said, in the show it was jarring because she finally reunited with Jon and then off she went. I struggled to pick up on the themes in Arya’s chapters, so I don’t really know where her story is going, beyond the Riverlands/reuniting with Jon. Just like the show, you grow attached to certain characters and become a bit of an ‘expert’ on them, Arya wasn’t one of mine, so I haven’t got a grand theory for her. There must be some foreshadowing about her fighting the others somewhere, but I don’t know how her decision to go exploring fits thematically.
Farimer123,
Free Folk News.
I love Game of Thrones and generally see the positives of any limited negatives but honestly Beyond the Wall for me was one of the weakest episodes of the entire show (up there with a couple from Season 5). It felt so out of place and unbelievable versus the theme established up until that point that I could not over look the negatives.
Ten Bears,
Cersei must have been at the tourney of Harrenhall though. It is not explicitly mentioned anywhere, but that was where Jamie was knighted. She must have been present at the incident of Rhaegar giving the flowers to Lyanna. Just a thought. I don’t know if I am right.
I had thought the same but then I remembered this part about Tywin retiring as Hand and taking Cersei back to Casterly Rock with him just before the Tourney of Harrenhal.
When Aerys offered a white cloak to Jaime, this made the existing tension (over Aerys’s refusal to betroth Rhaegar to Cersei) between himself and Tywin worse by taking away the son Tywin wanted to make his heir.
This may explain why Cersei’s presence at the Tourney of Harrenhal is not explicitly mentioned or why in Cersei’s POV chapters, she doesn’t seem to have first-hand memories of the event.
From The World of Ice & Fire:
Ten Bears,
For me it boils down to motive. Who would have a motive to kill Cersei after she’s been utterly, totally destroyed? And why?
According to the prophecy, she’s going to witness that person -a queen?- who will take away everything from her. This means her siblings, her children, and the throne. Cersei is going to witness the final deal and then she’ll die.
If this doesn’t happen there’s not much sense in the prophecy.
Considering that the Tyrells and FAegon are not PoVs, I don’t think they qualify as being the final winners. I think the final game is Stark and Dany related. Cersei needs to see where her own actions (in this case against the Starks) have led.
So I guess that Cersei will still be alive and scheming at the end of the book and this will cause her murder.
In this context perhaps the one who will kill her will be someone who will have perhaps an interest to protect whoever is on the throne? Just a suggestion though.
If this doesn’t happen, then her murder will have nothing to do with motive, but will be a murder for revenge or simply for freeing the world of one of the worst people that ever walked Westeros? Sounds rather anticlimactic, doesn’t it? But why not?
Efi,
Well, as you noted, hate and/or revenge might be a motive — but it may not be so anticlimatic, depending on who it is and how it’s set up. For instance, Cersei has given cause for quite a number of people to hate her (and she is on Arya’s list), whether or not she is utterly destroyed or still scheming at the end (which does sound like Cersei). And in the yet-to-be-published books, Cersei may make more enemies yet.
There’s also the nature of strangulation vs. other forms of killing (like formal forms of execution, a sword, or a dagger). Strangulation involves prolonged skin-to-skin contact and this seems to fit the very personal and heated nature of revenge.
Loras Tyrell, for instance, is a younger brother to Willas and Garlan and may hate Cersei for what she’s done to Margaery.
Or maybe there’s another motive I’m not thinking of that isn’t related to revenge or justice and isn’t used as a preventative measure (per your suggestion that perhaps Cersei is killed to protect the one on the throne). Maybe a sword or knife are weapons that are simply unavailable at the time Cersei dies…
I think this is how the prophecy will ultimately go down but do you mean that you think valonqar will be the same queen who fulfills this bit of the prophecy?
Valonqar may not be the same person as the one who ultimately casts Cersei down and takes all she holds dear. Perhaps but perhaps not.
I know this part of the prophecy is also under heavy debate. “Another” may not mean “another queen” (a commenter pointed this out to me about a year ago when I thought this would disqualify Brienne) and the idea of what Cersei holds dear has also been under debate (Jaime? The throne?)
I can’t remember the supporting evidence for Brienne being the one who casts Cersei down since she is not more beautiful than Cersei but I feel I’m certainly forgetting something.
I think this is something wanted by quite a few fans (and might be achieved if Arya is who kills her per the female valonqar theories, perhaps Cersei’s downfall is by the hand of a Stark). At the same time, justice and realization of wrongdoings aren’t always a thing in Westeros 🙁
mau,
“It just doesn’t make any sense that they would turn fan favourite into failed saviour, that they would make other fan favourite kill her and then be exiled, that they would make Jaime return to Cersei or put Bran on the Throne.”
My single objection to this (it’s not really an objection, but for lack of better word…) is that I think that they had a right to do that, if they wanted to, for various reasons, among which I would also count their own personal preferences. Much as ASoIaF is Martin’s baby, GoT is D&D’s baby.
So what if they loved Tyrion that much, that his “punishment” was just community service despite his heinous crimes and despite his bringing an enemy to Westeros? His ending is consistent with years-long washing off of his twisted book character in the TV adaptation.
(just an example that demonstrates what I’m talking about).
Having said that, I don’t think that the ending will be all that different in the books. Two kingdoms, Dany dead. That’s the ending. And as for getting there, I even brought foreshadow in a previous thread about major developments. But it will be much more complicated in the books and the road to that place will be difficult. It won’t be so simple as it was on screen. Lots of people are involved in it so we’ll get the chance to see all their PoVs and how each of them contributes to that ending. This is something that the show refrained from because they wanted to protect their “oh! sh*t” moment and it is something that D&D also had a right to do.
Ten Bears,
“It would’ve been nice to know that the manner in which Arya dispatched Meryn F*cking Trant in S5e10 was deliberate rather than coincidental on the part of the writers.”
There’s no way this was coincidental! It’s her Mercy chapter only adapted to shock the audience. This means that D&D had quite a heads-up on the developments.
Ten Bears,
Re: valonqar theories, I realized that link I previously posted may expire if offline responsibilities prevent you from being able to access the screenshot today or if you wanted to save it for future reading. I’ve uploaded another copy of the screenshot to Imgur just in case 🙂
Here!
Well, obviously. It’s the books. Jon’s death, RW, Walk of Shame, Meereen, all of these things were much more complicated in the books.
On the other hand, maybe that’s the reason books can’t be finished. Everything is too complicated.
Thinking about this further, maybe Cersei’s death isn’t meant to be climactic but uncomfortable or perhaps even sad in a way. Maybe it’s not meant to be a thrilling moment of justice and/or revenge where Cersei manages to see all she’s done wrong and is killed for it. Maybe there might be some of that but perhaps it’s not this entirely.
I definitely think Cersei has and will have earned her death but, especially if it’s done for revenge (or even justice in her killer’s view), it might not be something to be celebrated but instead, contemplated? Maybe even mourned (depending on who’s doing it, of course, and how they feel about her).
Just a rambling thought 🙂
Tonally, it will be similar to the Walk of Shame, you want her to get her comeuppance, but when it happens, it’s so horrible that you feel weird about it. However, I remember her treatment of Tommen, and the women she handed over to Qyburn to experiment on, the made up accusations against Marg, the people she tried to kill. My sympathy disappeared rather quickly. Call me heartless but she is so awful in the book that it is hard to empathise with her. If GRRM wants us to feel bad about her death, he has his work cut out for him. Show Cersei is another thing entirely, and I didn’t feel that sorry for her either. Killing Missandei was the last straw, you can’t do that and then expect me to feel bad in the next episode.
Jon Snowed,
There wasn’t much negative in the episode.
That’s all true too and I don’t know if I mean having the reader feel that bad for Cersei’s sake, exactly, but I think I mean more in the vein of unsettling and weird (like you said when Cersei did get her comeuppance). Maybe an element of contemptible pity considering Cersei’s life and the anger she holds onto, unable to really truly love. That and Cersei’s obsession with this prophecy and preventing it may have a big hand in fulfilling it, providing a sort of dramatic irony that she brought this about herself in trying to stop it. Considering the way GRRM handles killing in the books (in the examples I remember off the top of my head) — while death may be earned and necessary — it seems to often have two sides to it. It’s often tied to a sort of consequence as well.
Yeah, I don’t think we will be cheering for it, even if we don’t necessarily feel bad about it. Only Joffrey and Ramsey elicit that response. If the Valonqar ends up being Jaime, it will probably break him, so I agree that the person who actually does the deed will effect the way that we perceive it. I wouldn’t want her to be killed by someone as mad as Euron, that would make me sympathise with her more. After reading this, I’m thinking about it slightly differently, if she has to endure a series of hard truths about herself and others (basically finding out that she is wrong about everything and everyone) that will bring her down to her absolute lowest. At the moment, she is delusional, when that delusion is gone, what is she? I probably would feel bad about that. I see Cersei as a warning against revenge, when you get it, it’s never what you hoped, it’s empty.
That actually reminds me of the Hound and Arya, they came to this conclusion and it did in fact involve Cersei.
Jenny,
Yes, especially considering the way Euron killed Falia, who wasn’t exactly a great person herself (particularly the way Falia exacts revenge against her father and trueborn siblings for making her their servant). Maybe Falia is dark Cinderella? Anyway…
And that’s a good question — when she’s brought to her absolute lowest and doesn’t even have her own self-delusions to rely upon (seeing herself as a female Tywin), how will Cersei view herself? It feels like she holds onto resentment and grudge like a lifeline, she never challenges herself, she never reflects… And I think this also contributes to pushing away one of the few people who truly loves her (Jaime).
I think you’re right that Cersei might be a warning about revenge and the emptiness it ultimately brings since, to me, Cersei’s character never seems to really change or grow. She holds on to that and has remained pretty terrible so far in the books.
Ten Bears,
A bit overdue answer, but I thought I should reply anyway. Spoilers ahead.
Arya has spent a lot of time in the Riverlands putting on different faces. In her final (? I think) chapter in ASoS she decides that she is no one. She’s fed up with this, tired, she’s fed up with having no place to go and assuming different identities for escaping. Her first enstinct, however, is not to get out of Westeros, but to go to Jon. Since no one was interested in getting her North, she took the next best option, Braavos. Braavos was not her destination, it’s where her adventure took her after all her attempts to find family failed.
Her training is interesting. It has nothing to do with Ninja Assassin Warrior Princess though. She learns discipline, she learns to obey without asking questions, to observe people and understand what they’re going through. Much more than Sandor (who also kills without torturing people), the Faceless Men teach her that death can be mercy, and therefore cannot be given pointlessly and unjustly. My favorite part though is that she’s familiarized with the various potions, materials, poisons, etc., a stage of her training which she goes through when she’s blind. She becomes blind because she killed that singer of the Night’s Watch simply for speaking against Jon (if my memory doesn’t deceive me). But even though she becomes no-one, which means that she has trained so well as to make the FM believe that she has given up on her true identity, it still exists in her. It exists in her revenge, in the pointless killing of that NW young man, in her warging in Nymeria, in Needle which she uses to kill Raff.
A divergence: her journey at this point is similar to Sansa’s. It’s touching and rather unexpected that Arya gets to learn what Sansa is doing in ASoS. One way or the other, Arya gets informed about the events. She knows that Sansa was beaten under Joff’s regime, that she married against her will (which is sth she figures out because she knows her) that she’s accused for killing Joffrey and that she has escaped (and she learns that someone is impersonating her in WF and that Tyrion has escaped too and that there’s a chance he is in Essos), she even plays in a play where Sansa gets raped by Tyrion. But just like Arya, Sansa lands in a place in the Vale with the Titan of Braavos as its sigil -LF’s castle. She sheds her identity to become Alayne Stone, just like Arya in the real Braavos sheds her identity to become no one. But both girls maintain their identity even in anonymity, they secretly are Starks in their hearts. My guess is that the two sisters will get along fine when they meet again; there will be no rivalry between them, no hurt feelings anymore.
And so there exists this connection with the sea and water in particular in Arya’s chapters. I don’t think it’s got to do only with the sea and her future adventures though. It’s strongly connected with the Riverlands and her mother. There’s a lot of fire in her chapters too. She sees what fire can do when the Lannisters attacked Yoren’s party close to the Gods Eye. Later she gets captured by the Brotherhood that worships Rh’llor. And then Sandor abducts her, and she gets to see the Northern camp burning outside the Twins (they set fire to the tents where the Northerners were celebrating the wedding; many were burned alive). After that, Nymeria but in reality Arya in search for her mother pulls Catelyn’s corpse out of the water and prevents the wolves to feed on her, until the pack is driven away by the Brotherhood.
So, based on all that, if I had a suggestion about Arya’s endgame, I’d say that Arya’s endgame has to do with dragons (perhaps she’ll kill one?). I’m also troubled by her familiarization with poisons. According to the maester’s estimation, Joffrey died by a poison named “strangler”. Ring a bell? Yes, Cersei’s valonqar prophecy. However, it’s a stretch (but it would be a good twist) that Arya will kill Cersei, and the FM don’t kill that way (with so much pain –tbh that way is Tyrion’s way).
I don’t really believe that she’ll go on roaming the seas either. In the books she’s still too young, so if that happens, perhaps it will happen at a later stage in her life. I think that at the very end and after a few years perhaps marriage expects her with a knight (Gentry, who has been knighted by Beric). Arya may be a tomboy, but she has always been a girl, and even if she destroys the dresses various people have given her, she feels bad about it. So whatever she does, it doesn’t involve her forsaking her female side (like Brienne has seemingly done). After all, apart from Brienne there’s always the Mormont ladies, all very competent with weapons but still wearing dresses when it is needed. And if she becomes a lady like the Mormont ladies, perhaps that will happen in the Riverlands, which she knows well by know, and where Gentry is from anyway.
But all that, and whatever one might speculate about Arya’s ending, is rather tinfoil (imo apart from fighting against fire) because her chapters are very diversified, it’s like a walk in an amusement park where all sorts of things draw your attention. In this context anything might happen.
Correction! Falia isn’t dead… yet(?)
Adrianacandle,
No, I don’t think that “another” is the same as valonqar tbh. But as you noted “another” can stand here on its own, without the “queen” specification. The problem is, that “another” must take away everything from Cersei, and for this to happen he/she must be in her immediate environment where what “another” does has a result that Cersei’s precious things are taken from her. Otherwise I don’t see how Cersei can be threatened in that particular way and have that ending.
Efi,
Addition: “Another” must be a woman though, otherwise the comparison of youth and beauty doesn’t make sense.
mau,
Yes, but then again, we’re talking about the one who designed Hodor in book one, when Hodor’s secret will be revealed in WoW, the 6th book.
So perhaps that complexity isn’t the reason for the mastermind’s stalling.
In a sense, it feels like Arya was taking justice into her own hands:
I’m sorry, I don’t think I’m quite following (so please correct me if I’m misunderstanding, I did try my best to glean your meaning). Are you saying “another” and valonqar must be connected or in the same environment when “another” takes what is dearest to Cersei? I’m not sure if that has to be the case… what Cersei holds most precious being taken away may leader to her being “cast down”, leaving her broken, but I’m not sure why valonqar must be immediately present to kill Cersei as a result?
Men can sometimes be more beautiful and younger — there are those who I find very pretty, perhaps prettier than some women 🙂
Adrianacandle,
What’s interesting about Cersei is that she doesn’t change, but our perception/understanding of her does. In AGOT, I took her for a woman like any other, trying to manoeuvre in that world, she had an awful husband and a dark secret, she was just doing what she had to do to survive. Even Ned’s death wasn’t really her fault, she was willing to send him to the wall (incredibly generous and almost ooc, looking back on it). We’ve seen enough characters like that, so we applied that preconception to her, and the show portrayed her that way right to the end. She was more sympathetic when viewed through the eyes of other characters, its normally the reverse as was the case with Jaime.
Then we get to AFFC, and we get into her head and its like ‘oh… oh my God, I didn’t understand her AT ALL’. She’s possibly a psychopath, or at least a narcissist. Jaime is on a similar journey, the curtain is pulled back and we see her for what she really is, and it is dark. She blames everything on her gender (true in many ways) but nobody hates women more than she does, it’s something to behold.
Her first reality check was of course ‘he would never leave me for such a creature’ when Jaime went off on his trip with Brienne. The first of many.
Jenny,
That’s true. It’s like the reverse of Sympathetic POV where seeing things from a character’s perspective can give you more understanding but it’s like Cersei’s own POV seemed to double down on her worst qualities. We’re given reasons in her backstory for where Cersei’s resentment comes from but even so, her POV doesn’t soften Cersei’s traits, it seems to make them worse. And yes, with Jaime, it’s the reverse. He’s scorned by other POV characters but when we get into Jaime’s head, we have a more sympathetic view of him and he does develop throughout the series.
Efi,
Well that’s just one (great) plot point. Writing the entire story is much harder. And I think Hold the door supports my argument. Martin has great ideas but he doesn’t know how to write a narrative anymore, he doesn’t know how to plot. Everything is just world building and character reflections.
He doesn’t want to make sacrifices Benioff and Weiss made to finish the story, but he also doesn’t know how to move this monstrosity forward.
I genuinely don’t think he has any idea how to get this story from the second act into the third and that’s why he spent two books basically doing nothing to advance the story forward. He never set up the White Walkers properly for any morally ambiguous ending and with them looming, what he REALLY wants to write, a perpetual civil War in Westeros and a second Dance of the Dragons will never get off the ground, which is why the books have stalled at the exact spot where he can’t avoid the next big advance.
• I questioned whether it was “coincidental” that Trant didn’t have a sword, or armor, only a stick in S5e10 when he faced ASNAWP’s justice for killing Syrio Forel – because that was precisely how MFT was able to kill Syrio in S1, as she explained to Sandor in S4e5 (link to video + dialogue excerpts below).
Previously in S5, Arya had refrained from confronting MFT after spotting him in Braavos decked out in KG armor and a big f*cking sword.
For me at least, Arya’s prudence and strategic planning in targeting MFT in S5 demonstrated that she had taken to heart the lessons Sensei Sandor had impressed upon her back in S4e5.
That’s why I was hoping the mirror image Syrio S1 + MFT S5 scenes, and S4e5 Sandor & Arya “explication,” were deliberate (and clever) writing decisions, as opposed to a serendipitous happenstance.
My (hypothetical) S8 dialogue between Sandor and Arya, with a brief callback to Arya’s exsanguination and execution of MFT, would not only have been a narratively pleasing bookend, but would have confirmed that:
– (a) the writers intentionally constructed the S5e10 Arya + MFT confrontation as a parallel to the S1 Syrio + MFT encounter; and
– (b) the writers meant to demonstrate that Arya had implemented Sandor’s lessons from S4e5 (accompanied by a smack to the face so she didn’t forget them) into her skill set.
(For all the overblown and frequently undeserved “lazy writing” criticisms, there ought to be appreciation for the many instances where the scripting was smart, effective and nuanced. If done well, those instances often won’t “jump out” at you.)
• You noted that there “was no way [the S5e10 Arya – MFT scene] was coincidental! It’s her Mercy chapter only adapted to shock the audience. This means that D&D had quite a heads-up on the developments.”
I apologize if my previous comment (about coincidental vs. intentional) to which you replied wasn’t clear. I only questioned whether Arya’s recital that Syrio “didn’t have armor, or a sword; only a stick” and the later (visual) portrayal of PedoSadist MFT without armor, or a sword, only a stick – were coincidental. I really hope that was intentional, even if not explicitly acknowledged.
The “Mercy” sample chapter is one of only a handful of book excerpts I’ve read. (I enjoyed it so much I’ve re-read it several times.) I vaguely recall that GRRM shared this sample chapter with Benioff and Weiss in advance of Season 4. So yes, they did have a head’s up.
I think I may have previously suggested that the “Mercy” chapter’s portrayal of Arya’s mid-play encounter with “Raff” in Braavos was actually adapted into two separate show! scenes: (1) Arya vs. Polliver in S4e1 (“Can you walk? Do I have to carry you?”) + (2) Arya vs. MFT in Braavos in S5e10.
Good decision as far as I’m concerned. Both scenes were memorable. Justice for Lommy and justice for Syrio.
I assume that in the books “Raff” is the one who had taunted and killed a wounded Lommy after he’d already surrendered: Mercy had Raff repeat back his “lines” – his taunts to Lommy – after she’d severed an artery in Raff’s thigh.
On the show, MFT took the place of Raff as the KG visiting Braavos – unbeknownst to him, a one-way trip. 🗡👸🏻😀.
I’m not aware of Polliver’s fate in the books though. I did however thoroughly enjoy show! Polliver’s demise, in what was perhaps my all-time favorite scene in GoT: the concluding 9 1/2 minutes of “Two Chickens” – I mean “Two Swords,” S4e1.
——
S4e5: Arya tells Sandor how Meryn Trant killed Syrio Forel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRY4Mpmfk1o
at 3:20 to 3:24
Arya: “Syrio didn’t have a sword. Or armor. Just a stick.”
at 3:48 to 3:56
Sandor: “Your friend’s dead and Meryn Trant’s not, because Trant had armor. And a big f*cking sword.”
———-
Oh Lord. How I miss the show!
mau,
Troy I don’t really blame him for. When I did some research on how it was made the studio approached Benioff and offered him 1.5 million to turn the story into a Hollywood blockbuster and that’s basically what he did. The movie in my opinion has much more issues than writing Brad Pitt I think is miscast big time.
Efi,
Thank you for that in-depth explanation! It makes me want to read about Arya’s story in the books.
Two brief follow-up questions/comments:
(1) You wrote: “It [Arya’s identity] exists in her revenge, in the pointless killing of that NW young man, in her warging in Nymeria, in Needle which she uses to kill Raff.”
I thought Mercy/Arya used a concealed blade to kill Raff: First, deftly severing a vein or artery in his thigh, and acting innocent as he bled out; and then slicing his throat with the blade to end the party in time to get back to the theater to go on stage for her brief scene in the play.
(2) You also wrote, about Sansa & Arya in the books:
A divergence: her journey at this point is similar to Sansa’s. It’s touching and rather unexpected that Arya gets to learn what Sansa is doing in ASoS. One way or the other, Arya gets informed about the events. She knows that Sansa was beaten under Joff’s regime, that she married against her will (which is sth she figures out because she knows her) that she’s accused for killing Joffrey and that she has escaped (and she learns that someone is impersonating her in WF and that Tyrion has escaped too and that there’s a chance he is in Essos), she even plays in a play where Sansa gets raped by Tyrion…”
There was a scene in the show between Sansa and Tyrion shortly after Sansa learned about the Red Wedding. Tyrion (futilely) attempted to console her; she described how she was plagued by nightmares, having been told how her mother’s throat had been cut and her corpse desecrated, and her brother decapitated and his body mutilated and paraded around with Grey Wind’s head sewn on it.
Q: Was that scene in the books?
Q: Also, you wrote that in the books Arya somehow knew that Sansa “was beaten under Joff’s regime.”
Did Arya know specifically that Meryn F*cking Trant was the one who administered the beatings?
One of the reasons I’m curious is that if Arya’s storylines in the (future) books resemble her S6 – S7 exploits on the show, a scene with Sansa in which Arya describes how she took care of the culprits who murdered and mutilated their mother and brother could help foster a reconciliation between the sisters.
Also, if book! Arya winds up taking out MFT, perhaps avenging the beatings of her sister will be among Arya’s objectives in poking MFT full of holes before administering the coup de grace (and not just for MFT killing Syrio Forel).
My (uneducated) guess is that the books won’t feature a PsychoArya vs. ParanoidSansa “drama” like we saw in S7.
Instead, as you speculate:
”My guess is that the two sisters will get along fine when they meet again; there will be no rivalry between them, no hurt feelings anymore.”
I would expect that their eventual reunion will be more realistically portrayed, e.g., sharing their unfortunate experiences, reconciling any lingering childhood squabbles, and learning to appreciate each other’s strengths – kind of like their lovely battlements scene in S7e7 without the contrived drama that preceded it.*
*Caveat: There’s one detail in the books that was not in the show that might support the kind of escalating misunderstanding portrayed in S7. I’ll try to explain what I mean – succinctly – some other time.
Adrianacandle,
Thx! You’re right. Real world responsibilities intrude. I’ll try to read the imgur image later, to see if the existing Valonqar theories align with or refute mine.
Jenny,
Quick though about sympathy for Show! Cersei vs. horrible book! Cersei:
The reader’s commentary arianacandle recently referenced made a good point, especially with regard to the differences in show! vs. books! portrayals of Cersei, Tyrion and Arya:
In a sense, the showrunners were writing dialogue for Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey and Maisie Williams, rather than the characters imagined by GRRM.
This is NOT a criticism of the showrunners. It’s only natural that actors’ real-life personalities inform the characters they play.
P.S. I might venture to argue that because Emilia Clarke is such a delightful, endearing person in real life, some viewers could not help but be influenced by that persona, making it easy to overlook that she was portraying a budding tyrant.
Ten Bears,
Both my sisters said they thought it was realistic that they both squabbled a bit. They both had not gotten along very well in the show from the beginning.
The prequel will be visually stunning of course, but the story?? I mean, what is the point? We all know what will happen shortly afterwards anyway, so it does not matter what happens, we all know the end result.
Ten Bears,
I think that’s right, I think it was another blade. It wasn’t identified as Needle (and I don’t think she’d be able to hide Needle in a pocket?):
______
I think this is the corresponding scene from the books:
For my part, I don’t know how much Arya knows about what is happening to Sansa in King’s Landing but I’ll do a search today because now I’m curious 🙂 I don’t remember anything specifically but I could be misremembering.
Ten Bears,
I don’t remember such a dialog with Sandor, unfortunately. I’m sorry I got confused! But some of the dialog of the show is based on the narrative and Arya tends to think about these things and the little details that make a difference. In the books Arya doesn’t confide in Sandor and he doesn’t confide in her; they have few chapters together.
The show changed a lot of details. I.e. Trant was a kingsguard, he wouldn’t be in Braavos unless one of the royal family was sent (in the show it was Tommen’s father in-law if I remember correctly). In the books it’s someone else, so he goes with Lannister guards.
Chicken in the 2Chickens ep. serves a purpose. In the books it’s wine (no talk of chicken), Sandor requests wine for Arya too and by the time the fight starts he’s drunk (which is why he gets severely wounded; also, the peasants flee the scene, so there’s no killing of civilians). However, he kills Polliver, but Arya kills the Tickler pretty much the same way she kills Trant in the show, reciting on top of him the Tickler’s lines with every stab (is there gold? is there silver? where is lord Beric? where is the food?).
So they took Raff’s killing from the books, and gave it to Polliver, but they also took the Tickler’s killing from the book and gave it to Trant. These two -Polliver and Tickler- are in the same chapter at the end of ASoS.
In the book Arya then kills the squire after she retrieves Needle from Polliver’s sword belt. This has allusions to the Mercy chapter too, as the squire for whom Arya later reflects that she shouldn’t have killed keeps begging for “mercy, mercy, mercy” but Sandor tells her “you killed that one too”, because she had stabbed him in the belly. So the squire becomes her “mercy kill”. Later in the same chapter Sandor asks her to do the same to him, but she refuses and abandons him to die. This is their last chapter together and Arya gets into her ship to Braavos.
Ten Bears,
A quick reply to all these from the back of my mind and without being too certain (need to check it out) and without having read the other responses.
Arya doesn’t make Needle vanish like in the show. I might be wrong, but I think she keeps it well stashed away in her own room in the HoBaW. Later when she becomes an agent of the FM and in the Mercy chapter she has her own room in the city and I assumed that she took her things with her. So when I read the chapter I thought it was Needle that did this even though it’s not specifically mentioned, because Needle is so small that can be hidden underneath the garments (especially female?). In truth I associated it with with what Jon had said to her when he gave it to her, something about poking holes into someone so that he bleeds to death. The difference is, by the time she reaches her Mercy chapter, she knows where to inflict such fatal wounds and Raff barely felt it. Here’s the extract:
“Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve. She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash. A fine red rain followed, and in his eyes the light went out.
“Valar morghulis,” Arya whispered, but Raff was dead and did not hear.”
“Long thin blade” sounds like Needle, but I’ll check it.
As for Sansa, we don’t see her PoV after her wedding with Tyrion. She’s completely shut off until the day of her escape. There is no such scene in the book with Tyrion, and she even doesn’t want to learn how Robb and her mother died, because she’ll have nightmares. Tyrion asks her if she wants to know, and that is her reply. Sansa rather resents Tyrion, but less than the other Lannisters. She doesn’t want him, she is sullen and doesn’t speak to him and Tyrion doesn’t know how to approach her so he lets her be.
Ten Bears,
Vince Gilligan said he was going to Kill Jesse in the first season but he loved Aaron Paul so much he wrote him into the rest of the show.
I was able to find thes passages from ASOS in which Sandor tells Arya about what’s happening to Sansa in KL. I think this is the most Arya knows:
When the Hound tells Arya about Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion:
These other passages explain what Arya believed had become of Sansa:
ACOK:
ASOS:
AFFC:
I think it all depends on how the story is done.
Sometimes I think it can actually be more exhilarating when you know how things will end and the story focuses on how characters’ motives and actions influence the ending.
Some “good” movies where we already know the ending:
Apollo 13
Zodiac
Malcolm X
Schindler’s List
Monster
Milk
Any historical movie that you would consider good.
Adrianacandle,
No, I don’t think that “another” queen or whatever must be in the same environment. I don’t think it’s the same person either. “Another” must have that effect on Cersei. He/she must destroy her -consciously or not. And Cersei shall be there, she won’t be dead, for witnessing “another’s” triumph.
Then the valonqar will take her life. It’s plain I think in the prophecy:
“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”
I suppose a time will have passed from the point that Cersei will be destroyed to the point where she will be killed.
But I do think that “another” is a woman because beauty and youth are connected with Cersei; she loathes younger women and she loathes beautiful women too. She’s jealous and scornful of them. That part of the prophecy makes sense only like that imo.
Efi,
Oh, yes. I misunderstood then. I agree 🙂
Yes, this is my interpretation too. I don’t know how much time will have passed but I think Cersei will be emotionally destroyed.
Perhaps, yes. Or maybe this very prophecy is why Cersei fears other beautiful women who are younger — because she thinks “another” is a woman, a younger, more beautiful woman. When Cersei first heard this prophecy, she was 10 and it’s hard to be jealous of 0-9 yr girls for their youth when you’re 10 😉
mau,
Well, obviously. It’s the books. Jon’s death, RW, Walk of Shame, Meereen, all of these things were much more complicated in the books.
On the other hand, maybe that’s the reason books can’t be finished. Everything is too complicated.
Yes – I loved how complicated it all was, but I do think Martin bogged himself down. Too many characters too many arcs too many places leading to what ending? I do wonder if he ever used an editor, think that might have helped some. But yeah he wants to finish them but cant find a way out of the tangle he left us with. And without the books finished, D&D really were left hanging, with no other choice to aim for the ending anyway they can. I do think this show would have been very different if Martin kept up the books.
Well Rome and Chernobyl were great shows and every knew what will happen.
Here only those who read Fire and Blood or Wikipedia will know.
ash,
I just don’t think that the story can be finished without sacrifices. Even if Martin was 30 years younger. I mean there are more storylines in the North and at the Wall ONLY in the books than in the entire Season 6. That’s just not reasonable.
That type of story can’t be finished. It too compliceted and over the place with book fans trying to connect everything somehow, but last two books are just colections of short stories without real narrative connection. You are just following Dany, Jaime, Arya, Cersei in their own separate stories with million minor characters.
There is nothing really that holds this story together in the books anymore. Just this blind faith that Martin knows what he is doing, but that’s just a thing we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it’s a lie.
If 20 years wasn’t enough to convince book readers nothing will be. Even when Martin dies they will still believe that he knew what he was doing, but he died before he can execute his plan.
And they will find a way to blame D&D for that as well somehow.
Sorry to come to the party late but I MISS GOT.
Just the other week I heard “Jenny’s song”, sung by Pod (Daniel Portman), and broke in tears.
The refrain goes: “And she never wanted to leave… never wanted to leave… never wated to leave… x 6.
I never wanted to leave Westeros, and all it entails.
Marc, in his article above, has teazed out the basic reasons why we miss GoT.
Yes! I love the environments! A TV show taking place in an alternative universe? Hell yeah! It all looked so REAL. The buildings, the costumes, the set dressings. They transported us to another world.
Soap opera? Hell, yes! Human hearts in conflict with themselves aplenty. Though, un-soapoperaish, no simple goody/baddie.
I miss GoT, and Marc above hit the nail. Most of all, I miss the frantic, funny, wise and silly fandom. Us. We here around this website and others.
GoT made us part of a community. I might agree or disagree with certain theories, but talking about GoT/ASoIaF is ever so fulfilling.
A television experience like GoT only comes around every thirty years or so. A benchmark. My previous benchmark of TV excellence was the 1980s miniseries “Shogun”. It was so beautifully made. Such attention to detail, a feast for the eyes and the mind; and a strong story. Well, television is dead. It’s all about streaming now, GoT was the last hurrah of weekly television, and what a last hurrah it was!
So I miss GoT, I miss things as they used to be. Facing the future is scary.
She never wanted to leave
never wanted to leave
never wanted to leave
never wanted to leave
never wanted to leave
never wanted to leave…
“Squabbled a bit”?
Squabbling a bit is “You’re a liar!” and “You’re an idiot!” Squabbling a bit is mocking your deluded sister’s whining “but I love Joffrey, I’m meant to be his queen and have his babies” by exclaiming “Seven Hells!”
“Squabbling a bit” is not pulling a knife on your sister and musing about peeling off her face. It’s not conspiring with a con man to get rid of your little sister.
Look, that whole LF-Sansa-Arya WF “drama” seemed contrived to me. It required both sisters to behave like easily duped airheads, and dishonor the memory of their beloved father.
S1e3 Ned to Arya: “We cannot fight a war amongst ourselves.”
S6e9 Jon to Sansa: “We cannot fight a war amongst ourselves.”
S7 Sansa & Arya: “F*ck that. Let’s fight a war amongst ourselves. Sister against sister.”
Efi,
”[Now that I think of it, it was rather a call back to Sansa’s torture? She was beaten by Trant and Jamie repproaches him for that in a scene that wasn’t on screen…”
On the show at least, I remember the gleeful look on MFT’s face as he punched Sansa in the stomach and enjoyed seeing her doubled over in pain. MFT had that same look on his face when he punched [disguised] Arya in the stomach. He did not get to enjoy that so much. 🥺
Adrianacandle,
From these and other books passages you’ve kindly excerpted for me, I’m realizing how much the show expanded upon the Arya & Sandor relationship, and I suppose, capitalized on the chemistry between the actors.
It’s not just me. I know that even among casual viewers, show! Hound is a fan favorite. I take it that his books counterpart wasn’t as popular?
From what I’ve personally seen, the Hound as a book character looks to be well-liked among the readership. I’ve no hard numbers to source, this is just from what I’ve viewed.
Like you read the Mercy sample chapter from TWOW, I’d definitely encourage you to read those Arya chapters in which she and the Hound have their road trip so you can assess the similarities/differences between the book and show! Their travels together occur in these chapters of A Storm of Swords:
Arya IX (Chapter 47)
Arya X (Chapter 50)
Arya XI (Chapter 52)
Arya XII (Chapter 65)
Arya XIII (Chapter 74)
Five chapters of these two characters traveling together is no small thing, I think 🙂 They’d give you a clear idea for yourself of how this part of the storyline was adapted and I think you’d enjoy these chapters!
Efi,
Following are excerpts describing Mercy’s bloodletting of Raff that made me assume she used a small, concealed blade to slice open his thigh vein rather than poking a hole with Needle. I’ve highlighted in bold the particular text I’m referring to.
Re-reading the excerpted passages, I suppose it’s possible she used Needle for the coup de grace at the end that you cited.
Also… I loved how all of that chapter is narrated in the voice, thoughts and personality of Mercy – until the switchover at the very end. (I’m highlighting that part too.)
From “MERCY” by GRRM
(Raff, after rushing from the theater with Mercy to her room thinking he’s going to get a quickie)
*****
The laces,” he urged her. “Be a sweet girl and undo them.” Instead she slid her finger down along the inside of his thigh.. He gave a grunt.
“Damn, be careful there, you — “
Mercy gave a gasp and stepped away, her face confused and frightened. “You’re bleeding.”
Wha —” He looked down at himself. “Gods be good. What did you do to me, you little cunt?” The red stain spread across his thigh, soaking the heavy fabric.
“Nothing,” Mercy squeaked. “I never… oh, oh, there’s so much blood. Stop it, stop it, you’re scaring me.”
He shook his head, a dazed look on his face. When he pressed his hand to his thigh, blood squirted through his fingers. It was running down his leg, into his boot. He doesn’t look so comely now, she thought. He just looks white and frightened.
“A towel,” the guardsman gasped. “Bring me a towel, a rag, press down on it. Gods. I feel dizzy.” His leg was drenched with blood from the thigh down. When he tried to put his weight on it, his knee buckled and he fell. “Help me,” he pleaded, as the crotch of his breeches reddened. “Mother have mercy, girl. A healer… run and find a healer, quick now.”
“There’s one on the next canal, but he won’t come. You have to go to him. Can’t you walk?”
“Walk?” His fingers were slick with blood. “Are you blind, girl? I’m bleeding like a stuck pig. I can’t walk on this.”
“Well,” she said, “I don’t know how you’ll get there, then.”
“You’ll need to carry me.”
See? thought Mercy. You know your line, and so do I.
“Think so?” asked Arya, sweetly.
Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve. She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash. A fine red rain followed, and in his eyes the light went out.
“Valar morghulis,” Arya whispered, but Raff was dead and did not hear. She sniffed. I should have helped him down the steps before I killed him. Now I’ll need to drag him all the way to the canal and roll him in. The eels would do the rest.
“Mercy, Mercy, Mercy,” she sang sadly. A foolish, giddy girl she’d been, but good hearted. She would miss her, and she would miss Daena and the Snapper and the rest, even Izembaro and Bobono. This would make trouble for the Sealord and the envoy with the chicken on his chest, she did not doubt.
***
Adrianacandle,
Thanks! Boiled ASNAWP chapter cites in A Storm of Swords (Arya & Sandor) copied and pasted for future guidance:
Arya IX (Chapter 47)
Arya X (Chapter 50)
Arya XI (Chapter 52)
Arya XII (Chapter 65)
Arya XIII (Chapter 74)
Ten Bears,
I checked the chapter where she hid Needle. I was wrong after all; she hid it below the HoBaW, close to the water, like the show. But that spot was just outside the HoBaW.
But I still think it’s Needle in Mercy. When she gets dressed to go to the theatre, there’s this:
“It was a real mummer’s cloak, purple wool lined in red silk, with a hood to keep the rain off, and three secret pockets too. She’d hid some coins in one of those, an iron key in another, a blade in the last. A real blade, not a fruit knife like the one on her hip, but it did not belong to Mercy, no more than her other treasures did. The fruit knife belonged to Mercy. She was made for eating fruit, for smiling and joking, for working hard and doing as she was told.”
It was a “real blade” that “did not belong to her”, meaning it did not belong to Mercy -of course; it belonged to Arya. Mercy’s was the fruit knife.
As you noted, it’s very intriguing for the reader that Arya pops up at the end of the chapter, and “the long thin blade” makes its appearance in a way that a careful reader would be able to identify it. When she stashes it away, the narrative describes the blade as hardly “more than a toy”. I suppose it was really small and could be hidden inside female garments, or be adjusted along her arm so that it “comes sliding from her sleeve”.
I see what you did there. Nice one!
If registering on the forums is still proving a pesky nuisance for folk not registered there perhaps somebody could start a thread (or threads) for discussing aspects of the changes from books to show/relative merits of the books/show (though hopefully a bit more profound than “Season 8 sucked” – or “If you liked Season 8 you are a doofus/dingbat (whatever)”. It’s not for me to tell the mods/site runners what to do and I don’t know who would come forth and open a thread but I’m making a suggestion. I don’t mind people disagreeing with me but I’d like them to extend me the courtesy of being polite.
Efi,
I don’t mean to obsess over a trivial detail.
(*TB lies to Efi. To the Many-Faced God. To himself.*)
Seriously, the way I had visualized that scene as written, was that Mercy had a tiny razor-sharp blade on her fingertip, so she could “slid[e] her finger down along the inside of his thigh” and make an incision without him feeling it.
If Needle weren’t still in its hiding place (under the stairs outside of the HoB&W), then I suppose it could have been a second weapon – the “long thin blade [that] came sliding from her sleeve.”
One last observation: I thought that the “Mercy“ chapter was really well-written. It’s my first exposure to book! Arya. While I can understand why some book readers were concerned that GoT was turning Arya into a Marvel superhero-type cartoon character, from the concluding portion of the “Mercy” chapter [see below], one can’t be faulted for imagining that GRRM himself was writing a teleplay for the next exciting episode of…
The Adventures of Arya Super Ninja Warrior Princess™️
™️ talvikorppi (2018)
#ASNAWP
————————————
[Raff & Mercy; Abridged Excerpt from TWOW “Mercy” Sample Chapter]
“…Walk?” His fingers were slick with blood. “Are you blind, girl? I’m bleeding like a stuck pig. I can’t walk on this.”
“Well,” she said, “I don’t know how you’ll get there, then.”
“You’ll need to carry me.”
See? thought Mercy. You know your line, and so do I. “Think so?” asked Arya, sweetly.
Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve. She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash. A fine red rain followed, and in his eyes the light went out.
“Valar morghulis,” Arya whispered, but Raff was dead and did not hear. …
Dame of Mercia,
As a fellow Forums Section registrant who has enjoyed your Forum topic postings but also wishes more commenters were able to migrate over to the Forum Section to continue discussions, I still hope there’s a way to resolve whatever glitch has caused recurring difficulties in the registration and activation process (a “pesky nuisance” as you put it).
I like your idea that “perhaps somebody could start a thread (or threads) for discussing aspects of the changes from books to show/relative merits of the books/show”
It’s actually quite appropriate for a forum topic. Otherwise, like many other interesting threads in regular Comment Sections, the discussion will kind of dry up once newer articles are posted.
If it’s quick and easy to sign up and sign in, I’m sure lots of commenters will start using the Forum Section.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for your thoughts, TB, – of course I should have said that if I hope other people will be courteous to me, for my part I should also be polite to them.
Dame of Mercia,
You are always polite to everyone.
Seconded 🙂
(Also, I’m still not able to get activated on the forums :/)
mau,
And for some reason people still think that telling 15 plus arcs in 4 seasons to try to emulate Martin’s storylines and get into the same mess he has been for nearly 20 years its what the show needed.
I would have loved to see 80 episodes, but beyond that was never reasonable from a production point of view, there are not enough chapters for some characters. And whatever Martn wrote until 2015 was either bad or was getting nowhere and he rewrote everything
mau,
I’m curious how that critic managed to get through Blackwater, The Dance of Dragons, and Spoils of War then. Come to think of it, death by fire has been included in every season.
These reviewers are entitled to their opinion, but the idea that their opinion carries more weight than yours or mine is laughable.
I found the “up close and personal” deaths more horrifying than the mass dragonfire barbecues. Sometimes, the shock of the death didn’t even require the actual moment of death to be shown on screen. In no particular order:
• Robb Stark getting gutted in front of his mother as she desperately pled for his life
• The camera didn’t need to show Ned’s head leave his body. The stricken look on Arya’s face with her head pressed to Yoren’s chest was enough. It was so harrowing I’ve never wanted to re-watch that episode.
• Ygrite dying in Jon’s arms. 🥵 They never should have left that cave…
• Hold the door. Enough said. 😢 (RIP, big guy.)
• Stannis: “Go on. Do your duty.” The One True King deserved better from the Lord of Light.
• Janos Slynt – only because it was shocking to see his head sliced off. (Seamless editing.) Good riddance to that child-murdering, name-dropping, treacherous weenie. I was not sad to see him go.
By contrast:
• It sucked that Margaery was an casualty of Cersei’s Wildfire Septapalooza and yet, I can’t say I was heartbroken watching that smug High Hypocrite get vaporized.
• Dany’s Khal Roast was triumphant, not tragic. (At least that’s how I saw it; those Dothraki f*ckwits were openly boasting about degrading her and using her as their sex slave).
• Field of Fire 2.0 (S7e4) had stunning CGI, and fabulous action sequences. Drogon roasting nameless Lannister soldiers featured great work by stuntmen, the special effects departments and the director. That Loot Train segment was edge-of-your-seat exciting from start to finish. Still, when all was said and done, Bronn was unharmed, Jaime dodged a point blank blast of dragonfire, and nobody but a bunch of anonymous redshirts burned up, turned to ash, and blew away.
• The “one reviewer for The Bells” you cited said he “didn’t want to spend his Sunday nights watching people burn and scream.” Yet, the focus in that segment was on Arya running the gauntlet through Dany’s Inferno. No known characters were burned alive as far as I recall.
Unlike, say, “Hardhome” in which we/I were first induced to develop an emotional connection with a character like Karsi so her horrific demise had an impact, “The Bells” didn’t make such a connection. Even the mother and daughter Arya tried to drag to safety weren’t around very long before they got turned into charcoal briquettes.
Oh, and Harry Strickland and the vaunted Golden Company getting blown up by a fireball only made me think “Geez.. Cersei didn’t get her money’s worth, did she.”
The real tragedy as I perceived it was: “How terrible! All that time and money GoT’s designers and artisans spent on those beautiful costumes for Harry and his boys! For just a few seconds of screen time?”
Don’t forget Oberyn Martell. That was the hardest one to watch for me.
Farimer123,
If I’m not mistaken that was basically said verbatim by Sam in the show during that very episode or the one right before. Not even being a jerk to your friend, he might not have been trying to claim the idea.
Jack Bauer 24,
He has the best story and Westeros needs a story. That’s how they chose the king after some of us put decades into theories and anticipation. You don’t understand? Like not agreeing is one thing, not understanding is stubborn.
Young Dragon,
Yeah I saw that review and I thought to myself what show does this reviewer think they have been watching for the last decade? Another reviewer straight up said after episode 4 because of the treatment of Missandei they were going to hate the next episode no matter what happened. Seems kinda unprofessional to say your going to give something a negative review before even watching it. I won’t even get started on some reviewers claiming Spousel abuse because Jon killed Dany and claiming D&D are saying women are too emotional to rule. Apparently Sansa doesn’t count as a character for some reason.
Comment #497
——
Today’s musical interlude, dedicated to upcoming Comment # 500
“I’m Gonna Be (500 Miles)”
– The Proclaimers (1988)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbNlMtqrYS0
———-
Ackkkk!! You’re right. Oberyn’s death sure was “up close and personal.”
What made Oberyn’s death hard for me to watch was that it came on the heels of his inspired speech to Tyrion two episodes earlier, concluding with “I will be your champion.”
Ten Bears,
Here’s that scene….
Oberyn visits Tyrion in his cell (S4e7)
4:59 long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7n79tN6Fpw
at 3:18 “That’s just a baby.”
at 4:52: “I will be your champion.”
Ten Bears,
loved that song, used in a little known Johnny Depp movie Benny and Joon (hey is this post 500?)
Ten Bears,
Let’s not forget poor Rickon suddenly getting killed while desperately running for his life towards Jon.
The deaths of Ramsay’s young stepmother and her baby is another example.
Assuming that “valonqar” means Jaime, I was thinking this might refer to Cersei asking Jaime to strangle her while Dany is incinerating the Red Keep, deciding she’d rather die by Jaime’s hands than Dany’s. Or, while they’re holding each other as the flames aproach, Jaime decides to euthanise Cersei in order to save his “one true love” from the horrific experience of being burned alive (of course, Jaime himself suffers that very fate moments later).
An interesting angle is the parallel with Cersei nearly euthanising Tommen at the end of the Battle of Blackwater. So that could be another example of the kind of foreshadowing/mirroring that is sprinkled throughout the story.
I’m just guessing here, obviously. But it could be something like this.
Jai,
It’s not a bad idea, even though strangulation doesn’t fit because it’s too painful and too personal. If one wanted to mercy-kill someone, a dagger would be more appropriate.
But admittedly strangulation could be the last resort supposing that Jamie -or whoever- had no dagger.
I was also thinking of the song associated with the Lannisters:
“hands of gold are always cold”
Tyrion choked Shae to death with the chain of intent of his father, which represented hands and was made of gold.
But Jamie also has a gold hand.
He thinks of himself as the king’s justice and jokes about “a hand without a hand” rejecting the office but that gold hand is bound to have some role in the story.
Ten Bears,
I actually feel the opposite. I feel like they could have delved deeper into the Arya/Sansa feud. I think the storyline had a lot of potential, but it fell flat for me because there wasn’t proper build up or payoff. This was the only storyline that was truly rushed.
As for the books, I don’t think their reunion will be a happy one. I could see them being pitted against one another, like the show, only under different circumstances.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the links! Oberyn’s champion speech is probably my favorite dialogue scene in the show.
It is official, this fandom truly lost its mind, wow just wow …..
https://winteriscoming.net/2020/05/06/exhaustive-analysis-rhaegals-death-game-thrones-made-no-damn-sense/
Oh, I don’t disagree that it had potential but fell flat due to lack of proper build up or payoff.
My original comment about this, on May 5, 2020 at 1:04 pm, concluded with the caveat:
“*Caveat: There’s one detail in the books that was not in the show that might support the kind of escalating misunderstanding portrayed in S7. I’ll try to explain what I mean – succinctly – some other time.”
I’ll try to follow up on this later today….
… And that dialogue scene is one out of several in that episode, S4e7, that collectively make it my all-time favorite out of all 73 episodes of Game of Thrones. Reading the transcripts of the dialogue and watching the scenes remind me how beautifully written and well-acted they were.
Just off the top of my head, in addition to Oberyn in Tyrion’s cell, other iconic scenes in Episode 4×07 included:
– [Prior to Oberyn’s visit], Bronn explaining to Tyrion why he’s declining to fight the Mountain on Tyrion’s behalf (concluding with: Bronn: “What will you do?” Tyrion: “I suppose I’ll have to kill the Mountain myself. Won’t that make for a great song?” Bronn: “I hope to hear them sing it one day.“)
– [More poignant now in retrospect] Jorah convincing Dany to change her mind about executing all of the Masters in Yunkai. (Instead, Dany will give them a choice: ”They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”)
– Brienne, Pod & Hot Pie: Not just the long “You cannot give up on the gravy!” speech but rather the follow-up scene starting with Hot Pie confiding in Brienne: “You seem like a proper lady. Someone who could be trusted. I never met no Sansa Stark. But I know her sister, Arya.”
– Gravely wounded farmer (“Dying’s thirsty work”) with Arya and Sandor (“That’s where the heart is.”
– [What I consider Rory McCann’s best acting, in one of my Top 5 all-time favorite scenes]: Sandor telling Arya about Gregor burning him when he was a boy. Because it was so good, here’s a link to that scene (3 min., 12 sec. long), followed by the dialogue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-H6ln4ceDI
Sandor: “Rat cunt. F*cking whore.”
Arya: “You’re doing it wrong. You need to burn away that horrible bit there. Otherwise it’s going to get infected and fester. I know you don’t like fire, but if you don’t do it right–“
Sandor: “No fire!”
Arya: “It’ll only take a second. It won’t hurt that much.”
Sandor: “No fire! … Shut up about it.
Shut up about everything! Thanks to you, I’m a walking bag of silver anywhere the Lannisters hold sway. Which is everywhere between where we are now and where we’re going. I’m as stupid as that hog you stuck back in the village, getting myself cut and stabbed and bitten.
No reward is worth this much trouble. Wish I’d never laid eyes on you.
You say your brother gave you that sword? My brother gave me this. It was just like you said a while back. Pressed me to the fire like I was a nice juicy mutton chop.”
Arya: “Why?”
Sandor: “He thought I stole one of his toys. I didn’t steal it. I was just playing with it.
The pain was bad. The smell was worse. But the worst thing was that it was my brother who did it. My father, who protected him, told everyone my bedding caught fire….
You think you’re on your own?”
Arya: “Let me wash it out and help you sew it up at least.”
Efi,
”I was also thinking of the song associated with the Lannisters:
“hands of gold are always cold”
———-
Is that from the books? Isn’t this the song Ed Sheeran is singing at the beginning of this scene in S7e1 (Arya meets friendly Lannister soldiers)?
at 0:00 to 0:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywOoPIWARU0
——-
Ten Bears,
Yes, it is! All the songs are from the book with real verses; they’re Martin’s. The hands of gold, the Reynes of Castamere, the Bear and the Maiden Fair, and to be added to the list, Jenny’s song.
I am actually fascinated how little I miss GoT. S8, as shitty as it may have been, gave some sort of closure and reflects what might have been GRRM ´s vision, in general strokes.
Trumpworld makes Westerosworld seem conventional by comparison and COVID has given us the real-word chaos equivalent that nobody ever asked for. Actually surprised how quickly this whole series became dated. Should have finished it earlier, George!
Yes, yours was Post #500, and fortuitously, it turned out that a song you like was dedicated to you. 😋.
(I was going to follow up with a song for today’s musical interlude that I thought was titled “1,000 Miles,” from the soundtrack of the movie “Fly Away Home.” I was wrong. Its actually “10,000 Miles,” by Mary Chapin Carpenter. Instead, I think I’ll post a link to another one of her songs…)
flintstonewielder,
Dated? You’re reading and article about missing the show while simultaneously claiming it’s dated.
Me again. Me and my girlfriend Jovana managed to arrange this watchparty for “The Door” today (her first time watching), watching an episode “together” while having a Zoom chat open. Sadly we didn’t get a chance to really discuss it afterwards in detail as we ended our Zoom meeting in order to go eat dinner, but then she started feeling sick so we didn’t continue our Zoom meeting. Hopefully we’ll get to discuss it more tomorrow.
But still an update on our watching today. She did label it as one of the best episodes so far (and that says a lot as she has loved all the episodes so far, with “Hardhome” being her favorite I think) and considering how our Zoom chat got literally quiet during the Hodor sequence, I imagine it must have got to her quite a lot. She already loves watching anything WW related in first place and she’s a big The Walking Dead fan so I imagine the army of the dead in GoT has quite an impact on her. Also, both me and her are big supporters of “Whatever happened happened” time-traveling (a.k.a the one where you can’t change the past or present or future as you were always part of it) so Hodor’s death affected her on this level too. But it’s not only the WW massacre scene, but also several other scenes that she loved… especially Dany & Jorah saying goodbye and Tyrion and Varys meeting Kinvarra and such. All in all she loved it. Oh, and maybe for the end, we’re both big LOST fans (we got to know each other in LOST fan group in first place) so I told her it’s Jack Bender who directed this episode. I imagine we’ll discuss it more tomorrow.
Maybe just one final note regarding myself… even though this was “isolated episode rewatching” in my case that I very rarely do (as I almost always do full rewatches), Hodor’s death got to me AGAIN (regarding emotional reaction) so I only imagine my reactions when I get to rewatch full show in near future. I just remembered all over again why is this episode among my top 10 GoT ones and also among my favorite episodes of all time.
I was just driving home, listening to Champagne Supernova on the radio and reminiscing about my youth, when the line:
“Someday you will find me, caught beneath a landslide…”
hit me like a ton of bricks (haha!) and I got SO DAMN SAD that I will never again see Jaime Lannister being frustratingly stupid, or wonderfully lovable.
Stupid Oasis.
I was just driving home, listening to Champagne Supernova on the radio and reminiscing about my youth, when the line:
“Someday you will find me, caught beneath a landslide…”
hit me like a ton of bricks (haha!) and I got SO DAMN SAD that I will never again see Jaime Lannister being frustratingly stupid, or wonderfully lovable.
Stupid Oasis.
Here’s an updated random list to check off while staying at home to see more of Pedro Pascal and other GOT fav’s. I know there are plenty of others but you gotta watch one movie at a time!
Pedro Pascal: Prospect This is not quite the Hound and Arya, but it pairs a similar mismatched duo as they trek through the woods of another planet together. I quite enjoyed Pedro’s performance as well as teenage actress Sophie Thatcher.
BTW, I know Pedro stars in Mandalorian. I haven’t taken the plunge. Does he ever take off that helmet? Is the series worth watching?
Maisie Williams: iBoy Maisie has another strong performance in this high tech thriller. I quite enjoyed her character’s final scenes.
Linda Headey: Fighting with My Family At first glance, I was asking myself how does an actress of Linda’s caliber end up in a b movie about wrestlers??? I am still asking that question a bit! But i quite enjoyed Linda’s portrayal of the mom of her bizarre wrestling family. Linda’s not the star of the movie, but she immerses herself in this unusual role. I enjoyed this movie much more than I thought I would!
There are plenty more, but start with these three!
Mr Fixit,
😉
True. This is really hilarious. Crying that D&D passed the books because they cut 50% of AFFC and ADWD. So what was the alternative? Doing everything GRRM did and then being stuck in the second act forever like he is?
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Hardhome does have the scariest scene IMHO. When TAOTD begin gathering and rolling down (falling down) the hill was a sequence I don’t think I’ll ever forget. It took imagination to think of what a dead person could do that a living person couldn’t or wouldn’t do, since the living person had to worry about dying! It doesn’t hurt you when you’re already dead to throw yourself down a hill! That took some very creative thinking to come up with that idea. When you imagine yourself as a Wight, you can think of how many more options you have than a living person, since you don’t have to worry about dying! You can do all kinds of crazy stunts.
Especially when you have someone like Alan Sepinwall who worte the article before S8 how Dany on the Iron Throne is the endgame that makes the most sense because we followed her hero’s’ journey since S1. I mean wtf?
So he is completely blind that she struggles with her worst impluses almost since the beginning of the show.
I had a friend show her self Haircut on Facebook, and all I could see was Jaime Lannister on her TV in the background! I pointed out that she had Jaime on the TV and I didn’t say anything about her haircut since I didn’t really notice it…
If people haven’t read Maurice Druon’s “Accursed Kings” about the end of the line of Capetian kings in France, it might be worth giving it a whirl. I read it years ago and liked it. I did read one goodreads or Amazon review where somebody hadn’t liked it because he or she thought it read like a history book. I didn’t feel that way but we are all different. Perhaps try the first book “The Iron King” and if it’s not to your taste no need to finish it or carry or with the series.
There are some episodes of the 1967/68 BBC black and white version of “The Forsyte Saga” on YouTube though I’ll issue a warning there is a marital rape part way through the first series though they don’t actually show it – well they show the husband grabbing the wife, then they pan to an organ grinder playing the organ in the street outside the house and then they come back and show the wife crying and then the episode ends but if you think would find that harrowing it might not be for you. Back in the day the pubs used to virtually empty in the UK when “The Forsyte Saga” was airing so it captured a substantial viewing public like GoT did more recently. I mentioned this on the forums once and should also say that in those days there were only three TV channels in the UK.
I watched the first two seasons of “Versailles” (it only had three) but although it was well acted and showcased the talents of some gifted actors it had veered so far from what actually happened historically that I couldn’t bring myself to watch season 3.
Apologies if I’ve mentioned this upthread but I managed to find a very much abridged version of “The Eye of the World” (first book of the “Wheel of Time” series) of which an adaptation was being filmed before Covid-19 closed everything down. It was readable. I’m didn’t consider it great literature but it wasn’t bad literature either. It was a different style fantasy from GoT though it did have a character who has an affinity with wolves and an adopted orphan (as GoT had Jon Snow). You learn pretty early on that the character is adopted – it’s not like in GoT subtle (or maybe not so subtle) hints are dropped as to who Jon’s parents might actually be.
ash,
Pigeon,
To: Ash, Pigeon, et al.
Today’s Musical Interlude to follow:
• Will supplement my 5/7/20, 3:23 pm reply to Ash (”I was going to follow up with a song for today’s musical interlude that I thought was titled “1,000 Miles,” from the soundtrack of the movie “Fly Away Home.” I was wrong. Its actually “10,000 Miles,” by Mary Chapin Carpenter. Instead, I think I’ll post a link to another one of her songs…)“
… which Pigeon likely knows referenced a bird-centric movie (“Fly Away Home”) and a somewhat
lugubrious-sounding* song by Mary Chapin Carpenter, “10,000 Miles.”
* Lugubrious (adj.): looking or sounding sad or dismal
– Definition courtesy of Stannis, the One True King, Protector of the Realm and Defender of the Lexicon.
• In response to Pigeon’s 5/7/20, 10:17 pm comment (relating how a song [by “Champagne Supernova” came on the radio and made her feel “so damn sad”), will hopefully provide a more upbeat, mood-elevating song to listen to.
to be cont…..
Ten Bears,
Continuation of 10:23 am Comment, Part 1 of 2
[Spoiler Alert]: For anyone who has not seen the movie “Fly Away Home” starring Anna Paquin, the video linked below is a three-minute excerpt from the final scene of the movie with a part of the six-minute long Mary Chapin Carpenter song, “10,000 Miles,” playing in the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuV5OLFDvBg
———
To be cont. (Upbeat song, today’s Musical Interlude, to follow in Part 2 of 2.)
Pigeon,
(Part 2 of 2: Continued from 10:34 am)
Today’s Musical Interlude
Mary Chapin Carpenter,
“Down at the Twist and Shout” (live, 1991)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5otMS74u5rg
I was going to post the 1990 “official music video,” but this live version is arguably better. I think it was a performance at some awards show.
Pigeon: Incidentally, watching this got me “reminiscing about my youth.”
– I remember seeing Mary Chapin Carpenter performing this song on Letterman circa 1991 and being impressed. I could not find a video of that appearance. I did however find the video of this awards show performance from around the same time frame.
– I kinda got transported back in time seeing George & Barbara Bush and Kenny Rogers in the audience, smiling and clapping along. (At 2:00 – 2:15).
Semi-back on topic: I can’t say I’m a Country & Western music fan (and Mary Chapin Carpenter was kind of unfairly pigeonholed as a C&W artist).
Yet, GoT taught me not to be a genre snob.
If I had listened to my inner, biased self, I never would’ve watched a fantasy series based in a medieval setting with knights, lords, ladies and dragons. In fact, I only started watching GoT after Season 3, when HBO broadcast a pre-S4 marathon, and even then I was seconds away from clicking off the remote during S1e1 when …that mischievous little girl zinged the arrow into the bullseye 🎯 and took a bow. 👸🏻
Tron79,
I’ll be sure to check out those recommendations.
By the way, Dame of Mercia posted in the Forum section a thread about GoT cast members’ appearances in other TV shows and films. I added a few replies in that thread.
If and when the kinks in the registration and activation process are ironed out, perhaps we can all apprise each other of GoT actors’ other projects.
P.S. Has anybody watched Natalie Dormer’s Showtime series, “Penny Dreadful: City of Angels”? If so, is it any good?
I used to hate Country Music until I watched Ken Burns’ documentary on Country Music. I still don’t really like it, but I’ve grown to enjoy some of it like Waylon Jennings, Hank Williams, Johnny Cash, Loretta Lynn, Lefty Frizzell, Emmylou Harris, etc…
Where ´s the contradiction?
lol
Hi Ten Bears. I’ve never had success getting approved on the forum. I always register and then nothing ever happens when it says I’ll be getting an email or something…
I haven’t seen Penny Dreadful. I also haven’t seen her in the Forest either…
That is the new trend, apparently – cutting your own hair, the worse the job the better. Ha! I’ve been known to trim mine on occasion, but it doesn’t compare as I have long, very straight hair that is pretty darn forgiving.
I’d be noticing her TV screen too, most likely. 😄
I had almost forgotten how much I liked MCC….even MORE nostalgia! When we were kids growing up in Northern Canada, we didn’t have cable TV like the cool kids. So when we’d go visit our grandparents for holidays, we used to fight for TV channel rights, and often it was MTV or CMT (country music television). This was when MTV was actually associated with music. ANYWAY….😉 I am not big on country music, but I have a definite fondness for some of it, especially around that time in the 90s. Sigh. Roadtrips. Relatives. Grandparents. I lost my grandpa 2 weeks ago, and all of those times from my childhood are popping up in my brain more than ever right now. ❤
Although I will never ever not love George Strait. Amarillo by Morning is a song that’ll punch me in the face every time. In a good way. Kind of. Lots of nostalgia.
The CD collection from that series was the only thing my dad wanted for his birthday last month, so I got it for him. I’m always amazed at how much music I know, that I didn’t know I know. 😜
Today’s Musical Interlude
Sheryl Crow
“All I Wanna Do” (1994) music video (4:06 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgmBaE1cqD4
This ain’t no disco.
And it ain’t no country club either.
This is L.A.
++++++++++
Sheryl Crow, “All I Wanna Do”
(“Quarantine Edition”) April, 2020 (4:33 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhFGuWWlmGY
This ain’t no disco.
And it ain’t no country club either.
This is my front porch.
——-
flintstonewielder,
If Martin doesn’t put the Grey Scale in as an equivalent of Covid19 especially since he hasn’t yet written the last two books he’s out of touch. Use the damn thing and make it about now! It will take some years till all peeps are comfy with being close to one another less than 2 meters apart, without masks, so such a storyline will resonate with readers for a while.
Thank being said, books are for long run not for the binge watch burning need era these streaming services are catering to. Don’t worry, I still read books since 2006 and before. And people are still following Abercrombie, Lynch and others in fantasy genre. Enough so that makes me confident that Asoiaf will still be read. Not by you obvi, but don’t shed too many tears.
flintstonewielder,
Lmao
mau,
I like Sepinwall but he contradicted himself about GOT so many times I was shocked because he is suppose to he such a professional. He also seems to dislike D&D as people. He also seemed really angry that GOT dethroned NYPD Blue for the most emmys.
mau,
The second arc was supposed to be Dany’s invasion and the Dance, and we are not even there yet. Martin will need to mix his original 2nd and 3rd arc in the seventh book like the show did if he does not want to write an 8th
Sounds like your dad has good taste!
If whiskey had a sound, it would be a Waylon Jennings song.
Mr Derp,
Incidentally, I’m finding that over the past month or so a whole new subgenre of music is emerging: artists recording live versions “at home,” in quarantine – sometimes via Zoom with bandmates in other locations.
The production values are surprisingly good, and you often get a glimpse at their home lives. For example, Mary Chapin Carpenter’s dog and cat have become virtual stars on their own in her ongoing “Songs from Home” series. I also came across a bunch of charming videos of John Fogerty playing his hits at home with his two sons and daughter.
Definitely. As a kid I thought his name was “Wailing Jennings.” 🤦♀️
Shameless plug for a local talent, but Colter Wall is a fairly recent favourite of mine – he has none of the pop-country sound that’s more popular now, and is more of a throwback old soul folk country something something. Really young, looks nothing like his voice, but is definitely going places. Jason Momoa is a fan. 😄
Pigeon,
Nice listening experience! Thank you for that “shameless plug.” Oh, and good song title too: “Sleeping on the Blacktop.”
Thinking of random things to do in the lockdown – I had quite forgotten that something akin to the GoT/ASOIAF gothic novels existed in earlier days. I didn’t discover this, someone told me about it (no social distancing rules were contravened) but apparently there are versions of the old Classics Illustrated on archive.org https://archive.org/details/classicsillustrated
I have visited archive.org but not particularly in relation to graphic novels.
At the risk of being redundant (and unqualified, as a pre-books reader), even before the current real-world sh*tshow I’d been speculating that in the books GRRM had set up greyscale as an emerging lethal pandemic spreading from the south just as the lethal WW invasion threatens humanity from the north: decimating the population on two fronts. (Isn’t the books-only
character, “Jon Connington,” Patient Zero? He’s who’s infected with greyscale, has been concealing it, and is about to arrive on the continent?)
I’ve also suggested [tinfoil alert] that the show was setting up this major greyscale plotline per GRRM’s blueprint (including substituting Jorah as Patient Zero), only to pull the plug on it. That intended major greyscale plotline got reduced to “Jorah got sick. Jorah got better. The End.” The show had devoted too much time to greyscale, including the details of the disease, its symptoms and manifestations; the absence of effective treatments; and the afflicted (e.g., Shireen, Jorah, and the Stone Men), for it to be jettisoned so quickly.
As to your suggestion that the Big Kahuna incorporate greyscale as an equivalent to the real-world contagion, the only question in my mind is if he feels compelled to change up his already-intended greyscale storyline to avoid being accused of exploiting real world events as a gimmick for his books.
From the show and what (little) I know of the books, the similarities were already there: A highly communicable disease; ease of transmission; staggered incubation-to-manifestation period; no known cure and no effective treatment; exponential increase in cases originating with one or cases; quarantining the infected; relatively high mortality rate; and a tendency on the part of some people to give up on the afflicted, adopt an “out of sight, out of mind” attitude and condemn them to a miserable, brief existence in the equivalent of leper colonies. (Other people, adopting a religious angle, seize upon the desperation of the victims to include them as beneficiaries of the coming salvation by a prophesied savior.*)
* I’m referring to the speech of the Volantis street priestess (Rila Fukushima) about the Stone Men, greyscale, the Lord of Light, and the Dragon Queen – and Tyrion’s snarky commentary – in S5e3 of Game of Thrones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1i0WIphWg
at 0:43 – 1:12
Disclaimer: I was really hoping and expecting to see more of that Volantis street priestess (Rila Fukushima), as well as Red Temple High Priestess Kinvara (Ania Bukstein), along with an eruption of greyscale brought to the continent by Patient Zero, in the final seasons of GoT.
I thought that S1 – S5 had effectively set up the greyscale storyline for significant inclusion and culmination in S7 – S8. Or else… why bother devoting so much screen time to it early on? When all was said and done, greyscale amounted to an abbreviated, self-contained side story involving only Jorah and Sam that went nowhere after Samwell Tarly, M.D. successfully treated Ser Jorah in S7e2. (Don’t get me wrong: I thought Sam’s “You’re not going to die today, Ser Jorah” speech was a highlight for John Bradley/Samwell Tarly.)
Unless and until we learn otherwise, I’m gonna stick with my (tinfoil) theory that the show had originally planned on using a greyscale from the south + WW from the north dual threat plot, and later abandoned it (a) due to time constraints, or more likely (b) because GRRM had not yet written or imparted to the showrunners how greyscale would figure into the endgame. If GRRM or the show had further developed the greyscale storyline by the time the show ended in 2019, I’d bet we would’ve seen more parallels to real world events in 2020.
———-
Q for Book Readers: How did GRRM leave off with the greyscale storyline in his most recent book published 9 years ago, or in any TWOW sample chapters released since then?
(My admittedly unreliable, second-hand understanding was that GRRM’s Patient Zero, Jon Connington, was about to arrive in or had just arrived in Westeros – and was concealing his greyscale infection in the hopes of completing some kind of mission before succumbing to the disease.)
I think greyscale is something meant to touch everywhere worldwide with differences of opinion over how to treat it. For example, Shireen has greyscale and Val (a wildling) believes it’s something that cannot be cured and Shireen is doomed, with her possibly infecting others, while Jon subscribes to the belief of Westerosi maesters in which it’s said that greyscale is not fatal in children. In the wildlings’ experience, grey scale is something that lingers and never truly goes away.
For more information, I screencapped the westeros.org article on it if you are interested 🙂
Ten Bears,
Additionally, here is some info on ASOIAF’s grey plague. The grey plague is a worse version of greyscale.
Adrianacandle,
Thanks for that info.
I’m also wondering … wasn’t there a plague storyline in the books (“pale mare”??? or something) involving Mereen, Astapor or Yunkai, that was omitted entirely from the show?
I gather that Big G consciously incorporated plagues into his books, since they were a significant part of human history, especially with the rise of densely packed cities without adequate sanitation, hygiene, or scientific knowledge. (Not that those in charge today are being guided by scientific knowledge. 😡)
So, do you think GRRM has set up a greyscale storyline for TWOW — or was that just part of the “world-building” that some book readers have criticized as unnecessary window-dressing, especially in his most recent books?
Again, I just figured it would be par for the course for GRRM to have humanity contend with counterproductive “squabbles,” rival claimants fighting over the throne, and folks dying en masse in “someone else’s war,” along with death and disease from a swiftly spreading pandemic further culling the population, just as mankind is about to face an existential threat from monsters that most people dismiss as imaginary creatures from fairy tales.
I assume portraying a concurrent clusterf*ck of civil wars + plague + ice zombies would appeal to GRRM, more so than consecutively addressing the zombie threat, and then dealing with the big face-off for the Iron Throne (as in the show).
Pigeon,
I am not big on country music, but I have a definite fondness for some of it, especially around that time in the 90s.
I wasn’t either till I was in college in the 70s and 80s and at about the same time was introduced to contry swing dancing and ended up loving the country music of that time ‘Waylon Willie and the Boys’, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton…..anything that got me moving. I was also invovled in internation folk dancing, and was introduced to bluegrass, contra dancng (which came from England) and appalachian music, and Irish music which actually were all among the roots of country and helped me understand it and appreciat it more. Haven’t been listening to it for years, but bluegrass and Irish music is still on my Ipod and streaming
Oh wow! Those covers! We are discussing that else website, and I need to include that link! Wonder if I can find those (oh great another collection of books I want ….think I will need more shelves
Ten Bears,
Yes! And it’s in Westeros too — here’s a screenshot of the westeros.org article for that! There are reports of it being in King’s Landing.
Probably and there is also a conflict of thought in how to deal with these various illnesses, especially greyscale. The maesters believe it can be curbed, the septons believe it can be cured, the wildlings believe the affected must be euthanized, while there seems to be a colony of “stone men” in The Sorrows.
It sort of reminds me of leprosy? I don’t know if anyone else had that thought.
That’s a great question! I have no solid ideas but I think greyscale has some part to play. I agree that plagues being introduced into the myriad of struggles Planteos (the fan name for this world) is facing is on par for GRRM. In part because I think it makes decisions harder. People don’t agree on treatments, some treatments involve sacrifice (the septons believe sacrifice can cure greyscale), plagues can force issues to head, force some difficult decisions, result in the unfair deaths of innocents, etc.
As for theories on how it’ll play out in TWOW, I’m sure there are some — and I bet Kevin would know of them!
ash,
Ash, archive.org has the books reproduced digitally but there might be copies available on something like Abe Books (I’m not sure whether Abe Books is UK or worldwide or American) but I’m sure there are American sites for rare or out of print books. The books were mentioned on a history site and someone had said some of the artists went on to work for comic chains such as Marvel. The artists apparently weren’t allowed to use their names in their illustrations so some found subtle ways to include their names – say on banners for shops or even on blades of grass. Well there’s an old saying that necessity is the mother of invention.
Adrianacandle,
”…As for theories on how it’ll play out in TWOW, I’m sure there are some — and I bet Kevin would know of them!”
Hmmm. Kevin has been noticeably absent recently. He must be hard at work writing TWOW – because no one else is. 🤫
Pigeon,
”…Although I will never ever not love George Strait. Amarillo by Morning is a song that’ll punch me in the face every time. In a good way. Kind of. Lots of nostalgia.”
I’m off to find that song and listen to it. 🎶
Pigeon,
“I had almost forgotten how much I liked MCC….even MORE nostalgia.”
I admit that except for that song I linked earlier, the upbeat “Down at the Twist and Shout” (1990), and the slower “10,000 Miles” (1996) played over the ending of the movie “Fly Away Home,” I was not familiar with any of Mary Chapin Carpenter’s songs.
It’s only now that I’ve been listening to her other work because of her recent “Songs from Home” series. She just posted her newest video this morning:
Mary Chapin Carpenter, Songs from Home, Episode 16: May 10, 2020
“Something Tamed, Something Wild”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tt_tJx36Oo
—-
Mary Chapin Carpenter YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2u2rKdcCRiTPie5fwHrWIg
I have not watched all 16 “Songs from Home” videos (yet). From the few I’ve watched… I find her speaking voice and her singing very soothing, for some reason. It’s also comforting to know that thirty years after the first and only time I saw her on TV, she’s still performing her music.
Yep! XD
(I’ve noticed too. I hope he comes back soon 🙁 I would love to hear his theories on this!)
Putting COVID as Grey Scale would be the obvious choice. But putting The Others as an allegory to COVID would be sheer brilliance. Since he has underwritten them so far, he has plenty of leeway to do so. Maybe we ´ ll get the answer by Xmas, but I fear it may be four volumes of Wild Cards, not tWoW…
BTW, did you give up on Erikson?
Dame of Mercia,
thx, I usually use bookfinder.com and was able to see some, also Ebay has them. Will have to decide which ones I really cant live without because getting all of them would be a very pretty penny indeed
I really enjoyed the Mandalorian and only ever see positive feedback in the press and talking with others. It’s the best Star Wars output since the original trilogy in my opinion (although I do really like Rogue One).
I didn’t really love I-Boy though, Maisie was good in it and I can see why it appealed to her but the movie felt a little flat to me.
Ten Bears,
I don’t think that greyscale will have the same impact on Westeros as famine tbh. But I think it will be used for twists. Greyscale is particularly developed in Tyrion’s chapters, but it probably doesn’t have much to do with Tyrion himself.
In this it’s the gardener’s technique: what’s in old Valyria? a colony of people suffering from greyscale, lingering between life and death, having lost their minds but not all of them… Sounds like a leper colony. This is what gardening is to Martin, I guess. [tbh I loved more the giant turtles; Martin’s description of Tyrion’s journey through old Valyria is absolutely magical to read].
The twists: the burning of Shireen, for one. Val knows that the babies have been swapped, so Gilly’s baby doesn’t qualify for a royal sacrifice. So they’ll turn to Shireen, and the purpose will be to either help Stannis or bring him back to life. This last one is more likely, since Melisandre can’t see Stannis in her flames, so Ramsay’s pink letter acquires credibility with her and Selyse. It is noteworthy that all throughout the book the queen is more fervent a follower of Rh’llor than Stannis; in truth she’s a real fanatic. It will be Selyse that will give her daughter to the flames, not Stannis. The result will be that Jon will be resurrected and he’ll be absolutely horrified that a child has been sacrificed so that he may have a second chance. There is nothing horrifying Jon more at this point than the killing of children. But he’ll also bear the guilt, because he’s the one who did the baby swap; not that it would help if it were Mance’s baby in the flames.
With Connington, I don’t know what may possibly happen. At first I thought that Connington would be sent to Daenerys, but if Young Griff marries Arianne it will be pointless to have discussions with Daenerys. So perhaps he’ll go to Oldtown to seek for a treatment, just like in the show. But there must be a purpose to it. These are not filler scenes, no one in ASoIaF does anything without a purpose or a reason. In Oldtown we have Sam’s PoV now, and we know that a Faceless Man is there (Jaquen? hm!). The FM supposedly will help Sam to find a weapon against the WW? Will Sam cure Connington? Will they find out together the truth about Jon’s parentage, potentially that a wedding of Rhaegar to Lyanna took place? Will Connington start suspecting that Young Griff is not a true Targaryen, and that his beloved prince had had another son? Will he start asking septa Lemore difficult questions and what will be his and Barristan’s role in the reveal of Young Griff’s true identity? If we suppose that Young Giff will have enough support from the Reach and Dorne to sit the throne, and that Connington’s arrival and support will win him also Storms End, what will be the impact of the revelation on the political balance that will have been found by the end of WoW?
This is actually a thread that I see unfolding in ADoS, not before. If you think about it, the South will be as much to blame for the destruction of KL as the North. The South will have supported a fake, and the North will have supported a mass murderer. It looks very bleak.
I don’t think that greyscale will take the characteristics of the pale mare. But I think it’s certain that whoever ends up on top at KL will have to deal with the repercussions of a lengthy war, mostly famine. Disease will probably come as a result of the famine and the destruction of infrastructure, absense of materials and lack of working force, poverty which will have dire consequences in the aftermath of the war. Also, from a literary persepctive it’s pointless to explore the same thing twice, since it’s already explored with the pale mare.
ash,
If John Fogerty and classic Creedence Clearwater Revival are in your musical wheelhouse, here’s John Fogerty “live from home” two weeks ago, accompanied by his daughter and two sons.
John Fogerty & Family
NPR – Tiny Desk (“from home”)
Apr. 24, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qW2139LKN0
0:00 Centerfield
5:13 Down on the Corner
8:06 Long As I Can See the Light
12:09 Proud Mary
It’s kind of hard to believe that it’s been over 50 years since “Down on the Corner” (1969) and “Proud Mary” (1969) were released, and even harder to believe after watching the video that John Fogerty will be 75 years old in two weeks.
He/they do a good, faithful rendition of “Proud Mary.” I didn’t recognize the third track, “Long As I Can See The Light.” His intro to the song says it’s a reminder during these difficult times to look ahead to brighter days. Or something like that.
Personally, I found that optimistic message conveyed in the first verse of “Centerfield” (1985) right after the distinctive twangy guitar riff in the video’s “cold open”:
🎶 “Well, beat the drum and hold the phone,
The sun came out today.
We’re born again,
There’s new grass on the field.”🎵
Efi,
”I don’t think that greyscale will have the same impact on Westeros as famine tbh.”
Ah, yes! Food shortages and mass starvation. Another heavily foreshadowed, recurring theme throughout S1 – early S7 that kind of evaporated after that.
Efi,
I don’t think we can be sure about anything since we have next to no information about the upcoming books, only theories and what D&D have shared. I’m not certain the FM will help Sam find weapons to fight the Others. I should look it up to confirm so I may be wrong here but I don’t know if the FM know about the Others or believe they exist? And I’m not sure how Sam would find out the truth about Jon here, even if a wedding had been documented between Lyanna and Rhaegar, or discover that Young Griff isn’t really a Targaryen (since Sam doesn’t have access to ASOIAF theory forums discussing R+L=J ;D)? Neither Sam or Jon Connington suspect anything off about Jon Snow (Sam) or Young Griff (Jon Connington).
I’m pretty certain about R+L=J but we don’t even know for certain that Young Griff isn’t really a Targaryen. Plus, there’s the whole issue that nobody suspects Ned is lying and Jon has the Stark look through and through. Why would Connington start suspecting Rhaegar had a third child?
With the pale mare, I believe that disease is already in King’s Landing. Yes, the pale mare and greyscale are not the same but I think it’d be realistic for Westeros to have to deal with an outbreak too since there is quite a bit of back and forth between continents and I doubt anybody is washing their hands 😉
Efi,
So wait. You’re suggesting that in the forthcoming books, you think it’s likely that Melisandre and Selyse will burn Shireen to resurrect Stannis – and DeadJon wakes up instead? Now that would be a neat twist!
That’s the popular theory with how Shireen ends up being burned — as Efi noted, in the absence of kingsblood coming from a Mance source, Melisandre may realize Shireen is the only available source of it at the Wall.
Adrianacandle,
”I’m pretty certain about R+L=J but we don’t even know for certain that Young Griff isn’t really a Targaryen. Plus, there’s the whole issue that nobody suspects Ned is lying and Jon has the Stark look through and through. Why would Connington start suspecting Rhaegar had a third child?“
He wouldn’t. Nobody would. That’s why Jon Snow = Aegon Targaryen 2.0 = Valonqar would be such a clever twist upon a twist.
That’s my uneducated tinfoil theory and I’m sticking with it unless and until the Big Kahuna proves I’m wrong.
Thinking about it, maybe Sam does help treat Jon Connington… That scene from the show, with Sam slicing through Jorah’s piecrust greyscale, has ruined pie for me — especially dinner pies T____T
Hmmm. Kind of interesting that the show diverged from the books in making Stannis complicit in Shireen’s burning, rather than the unwitting, intended beneficiary of the sacrifice of his daughter by his looney tunes wife and firebug Red Priestess.
Yes, nobody would realize in that case (including Cersei, who’d be strangled by a son of Rhaegar, the man she can’t let go of in her mind) but I’m struggling with the idea of Jon using his bare hands to strangle somebody rather than using a sword/dagger/or even a hanging execution. But that doesn’t make it impossible though…
I remember Stannis the Mannis fans being up in arms over this but I think maybe this story change might have been due to the downsizing of magic in their world. Although, king’s blood was still a thing in the TV show (considering it’s why the Stannis/Mel group were hunting Gendry) and Jon was still brought back with… magic. Maybe it’s because D&D had planned to end Stannis’s storyline here? Although, the burning of Shireen isn’t why Stannis lost or why Brienne executed Stannis…
So… I’m at a loss :/
On second thought, maybe it goes to motive? In the show, Melisandre isn’t so nearly as drawn to Jon as she is in the books (she is with that whole lap-dance scene but in the books, it’s more pronounced: she sees Jon in her fires, she sees ‘Snow’ when she asks for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, she explicitly warns Jon against “daggers in the dark”, she tries to help Jon rescue who Melisandre believes is Arya and gives him the means to do it, she connects with Ghost right away, etc.) In the show, it’s Davos who must beg Melisandre to try and resurrect Jon.
Perhaps this decision is less about Stannis than it is about not giving Melisandre enough motive on her own to want to resurrect Jon.
But I guess you could say the same for Davos, who barely knew Jon at that point. Kind of felt like, without Stannis, Davos really wanted another leader to believe in and Stannis liked Jon ^^;;;
I can’t remember every fine detail of the books and as I can’t go to the library (even if they were not out on loan to someone else) I can’t refer to anything in them but I think messages by raven got to Castle Black sometimes. In fact Castle Black had its own supply of ravens. Could book Stannis perhaps send a raven saying he would allow the burning of Shireen if things went awry in the battle of the ice that some have theorised will take place in TWoW?
Ten Bears,
Why? This is what happened in the show only for another reason. Melisandre burned Shireen for Stannis to win the battle, but JS was resurrected. The book is very similar to that version.
I think that the showrunners refrained from bringing that nastiness to women that the books have. In the books, it’s the other way round; none of them is a good person -apart from the Stark girls but they too, have issues. To be frank, only Sansa is anywhere near normal, Brienne too, and other “normals” we see are not PoVs. Usually in ASoIaF if you’re normal you’re not a PoV and you get killed more often than not; killing or raping normal women is a way either to show the horror of war or to advance the plot.
Of the other PoVs Daenerys is the mother of dragons; Cersei is really, really ugly person; Catelyn is naive and cruel and only cares about her own children and nothing else, and she’s been too hard on Jon and has come back as LSH; and poor Arya only thinks of revenge.
So Selyse is a hard, cruel woman who does not love her daughter much and is appalled by her greyscale scars. Also she does everything for advancing her husband’s interests and demands that Stannis does the same too. She has already sanctioned the burning of several of her own blood relatives but the line for these two has been Edric’s fate. Selyse demanded along with Melisandre to sacrifice Edric because she believes that her marriage was cursed because Edric’s mother conceived him by Robert on the day of her marriage to Stannis. But Stannis won’t sacrifice Edric, who is, however, saved by the bell (Davos, as in the show).
So I believe Selyse will sacrifice her daughter, yes. Perhaps she will think of it as a “cleansing” of her own marriage that was cursed because of Robert’s adultery. Already there has been a discussion that a true sacrifice must be something dear, something that you cannot bear or do not want to lose, and perhaps -Selyse thought- it would restore her fertility too. Only, instead of Stannis sacrificing anything (because he resisted sacrificing Robert’s son), it would be Selyse, sacrificing her own daughter.
I think it’s perfect narrative. Isn’t it unbelievable how it goes in circles and comes to bite them in the arse? Jon, Stannis, Selyse, Melisandre…
Dame of Mercia,
I think there’s a blizzard around WF now in the books, so I doubt Stannis would be able to send a raven. Also, the chaos that will have erupted in CB with Jon’s assassination and the existence of the pink letter will rather deter them to seek for communication with Stannis, whom they don’t even know if he’s alive or not. I bet Melisandre will try to see him in the flames, but if she hasn’t managed so far, why would she succeed now?
I remember a healthy supply of ravening to and from Castle Black (Jon receives Cotter Pyke’s messages for instance and I think there are storms going on there too) but as Efi noted, storms may hinder their progress.
Dame of Mercia,
”Could book Stannis perhaps send a raven saying he would allow the burning of Shireen if things went awry in the battle of the ice that some have theorised will take place in TWoW?”
With the caveat that as a pre-books fan I’m going by second- and third-hand information…
I thought Stannis (maybe where the last book left off, or in a Theon TWOW sample chapter???) left explicit instructions with his men that “if things went awry,” e.g., if he was killed, then Shireen – as his heir – was to succeed him and be crowned as queen.
I’m not sure if that would be inconsistent with Stannis sending a ravengram instructing or allowing the burning of a Shireen. Also, if Melisandre isn’t around to whisper propaganda into his ear about achieving his “destiny” no matter what the cost, I’d wonder what could make him so desperate that he’d send a message saying, in effect: “Cancel crowning the Princess. Torch her instead.”
Efi,
”I think that the showrunners refrained from bringing that nastiness to women that the books have. In the books, it’s the other way round; none of them is a good person…”
Well that would certainly be an interesting adaptation decision: to make Stannis complicit in, and participate in the Shireen-burning to deflect some of the “nastiness” from Selyse? Also, I assume then that show! Selyse’s last-minute, maternal instinct change of heart wouldn’t square with the hardened, R’hillor Kool-Aid drinking book! version of Selyse.
I agree about Cersei but I disagree about Catelyn, Arya, and Daenerys. None are morally pure but they aren’t evil either, not like Cersei is. Catelyn puts her own children above anything else, yes, but I don’t think that’s to say she doesn’t care about anyone else. I wouldn’t say Catelyn and LSH are the same character — LSH has lost all of Catelyn’s good qualities and exemplifies her worst. Arya kills and uses revenge to cope but at the same time, she still cares for other people, people who aren’t always her family. Daenerys has been using extreme methods to achieve what she thinks is the moral good (well, until ADWD when Daenerys starts making sacrifices in this regard for peace). I wouldn’t put any in the same category with Cersei at this point.
I don’t know if Sansa and Catelyn are terribly different. I don’t think Sansa was cruel to Jon but Jon does feel how Sansa only viewed him as a half-sibling and that seems to hurt him. Sansa does regard Jon as “only her half-brother.” I don’t think Sansa was malicious or mean to Jon but it seems to me from the text that she does look down on his bastardy. However, I do think Sansa had some measure of cruelty where Arya was concerned though. Her negative interactions with Arya have a lasting impact, for instance. Arya still remembers Jeyne and Sansa calling Arya ‘Horseface’ and this has had a lasting impact on her self-esteem. Sansa hasn’t killed, she doesn’t have the means to kill like Arya and Dany do, but while she has compassion, I don’t know if she can be regarded as terribly different from Catelyn and Sansa’s not exactly making sacrifices of herself for strangers either. Sansa is a child, yes, but so are Arya and Daenerys.
Sansa has understandable reasons for much of what she does, how she feels, Sansa is a product of her time, but the same can be said for the others, I think — especially Catelyn.
Well, maybe not Cersei ^^;; Cersei is just something else 😉
Efi,
”…and poor Arya only thinks of revenge.“
Whatchu talkin’ ‘bout Efi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buJ0mlwQtI0
Adrianacandle,
”Arya still cares for other people, people who aren’t always her family.”
✅
——-
Personally, I think Selyse does have a measure of love for her daughter and it’s possible she has that maternal seed in her that may be activated by the imminent prospect of Shireen’s death. However, either way, I can see Selyse objecting to burning Shireen to bring Jon back. Selyse doesn’t particularly like Jon (nor Jon her) and Shireen is her only child, Stannis’s only heir. Losing Shireen means Selyse losing her legacy.
Yes, it’s true, there was set up in the books for gray scale as a potential disease, much more than in the show. But he may never have meant it as a larger plot, perhaps just as a single or particular character struggle and demise.
It’s not only Jon Con in the South but there is Shireen Baratheon in the North. I know many have minimized both, especially Shireen, but you should read Val’s reaction to seeing her and put it in the context. However as you noted there are storylines that are just world building and either do not impact the story in any major way or they do not ever come to fruition. As many things in life do not, get abandoned half way. It’s actually what makes his books extremely different than nowdays other writers’ books.
I hope it comes to fruition but the reality is Martin is an older style writer at heart, this double thread of greyscale may never come to pass. It’s like he’s from a different century as far as I’m concerned and I say that in a good way.
For the record: The idea that every single story strand, or description of society, of conditions and descriptions need streamlining, climax and/or meaningful closure in literature what has become widespread under “Checkhov’s gun” has only been so strict mostly this century. Sprawling lit in classic century never punished books for living “guns hanging” until everyone became a writing expert. Hemingway famously mocked that principle and for good reason. Most people who criticize Martin do it for this and I wonder how many actually read Checkhov’s The Cherry Orchard and if they can tell me what happened with the gun that Charlotte has at the beginning of the second act. She famously takes the riffle of her shoulder :p
flintstonewielder,
haha not FOUR volumes of WC surely! I suppose that’s totally deserved.
I didn’t give up on Erikson, I just shelved Memories of Ice for a bit. Had lots of stuff happening in the beginning of the year till mid March when they shut everything down here and I’ve read sporadically switching genres and trying to adapt to the craziness of working from home or scheduling working at office when others are not. It’s a different world as I’m sure it is down south, your way.
Stay well, my friend. Stay well 🙂
A quick pop in ….did Chili show up? Was it Covid19? Are you better?
If you are ill, you may not be seeing this note but you have my support, sending positive karma for a good recovery. Fight on!
Mango,
I don’t think I’ve seen a new Chili’s post since then. I hope he/she is alright.
Me too, I haven’t seen a new post from Chilli since either. I think Pigeon asked about Chilli in the 800+ comment thread but I haven’t seen a post from Chilli since March 19(?).
I hope Chilli is doing okay too.
TormundsWoman,
The F-ing autocorrect and protective gloves will be the death of me. I don’t even understand some sentences from what I type! It’s leaving not living, and not in and so forth…
And speaking of Chilli not being around, Kevin being absent is just weird. He is such a prolific poster it’s odd not to see his posts.
Hope everyone stays safe.
Ten Bears,
If I am not mistaken by that time GoT had already received a lot of critique about the sexism and the pointless nudity scenes so I take it as a decision toward the more “politically correct” writing. That was also the season where Sansa went to the Boltons and suffered unnecessary rape because they decided not to go with the Vale plot (which would demonstrate well the restlessness of the Vale lords to aid the North).
That said, the burning of Shireen also accomodated their adaptation of the story, and they wanted to get rid of Stannis by this point. As it was transferred on screen it did illustrate very well the failure of magic without involving an “evil” mother too. It also gave Brienne something to do.
None of these characters are single-sided in the book. Selyse for example suffers because she has only had stillborns and her daughter’s greyscale only made things worse for her and Stannis. She embraced Rh’llor because of her desperation, not because of her cruelty. She rather became this person because of what she has been through.
Each of the characters, the older ones at least, are trying to escape from their trauma (the younger ones are still collecting trauma, lol), which is where the reasons for their decisions spring from. Cersei had an unloving father and a bad marriage, Lysa was forced to abortion by her own father, Catelyn had to tolerate a bastard… But show Cersei at least is a whole different person, there’s no comparing book Cersei with that one. Selyse still has parallels.
They did lots of changes like that; little ones, that had a major effect on the story. Did you know for example that Jon Snow never knelt to Mance? That Jamie and Tyrion parted on very bad terms when Tyrion escaped? That Sansa never was a friend to Tyrion? It’s an avalanche with serious consequenses for the story.
Efi,
That might be a reason too, why they had Stannis burn Shireen. I wonder if it was meant to make Stannis’s execution via Brienne feel more “earned” because though Brienne was executing Stannis for Renly, the audience knows that Stannis had just burned his own daughter. But I could be wrong there.
I remember the Father’s Day memes that year about Stannis XD;;;
Yes, in the books, Tyrion and Jaime part quite badly and Sansa and Tyrion don’t really have the bond that the show gave them.
However, Jon did not kneel to Mance in the show either — but to Tormund 😉 That and kneeling’s not something the wildlings do so they don’t put the worth in it that the Westerosi do.
Ten Bears,
Do you have a musical interlude for today? I’ve had Sharon, Lois, and Bram in my head for the past five days (I love them and I went to one of their concerts when I was 4! But I’ve had enough of ‘Who Stole the Cookies From the Cookie Jar’) -_-
Btw, Pigeon, I know you are Canadian! Did you watch these guys when you were little? 😀
• Some of these books-to-show adaptation “tweaks” were a little jarring for me, as a non-books reader, show-only watcher. I’d heard and read book readers’ complaints that the show “butchered” Stannis. All I knew was that Stannis was the only one who responded to the urgent pleas from the NW, and had that triumphant moment in S4e10 when he emerged from the mist (at 2:00 below)…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=difPkqg1lO8
… and then one season later he’d burned his daughter, and then got terminated by Brienne ex machina. (Who conveniently abandoned her vigil right before Sansa lit the “help me!” candle.)
• For me, “Sansa went to the Boltons and suffered an unnecessary rape because they decided not to go with the Vale plot” defied logic and represented an inexplicable character regression for Sansa. (I don’t want to reignite arguments over this. It just did not work for me on so many levels, not the least of which were the idiotic marriage plan and the “unnecessary rape.”) I’m aware the showrunners didn’t want to leave Sansa marooned in the Vale, so they merged Sansa with Jeyne Poole into Theon’s WF storyline. Maybe it seemed like a good idea on paper. In its execution… not so much.)
• I’m learning about the many changes, even “little ones, that had a major effect on the story,” and collectively, became “an avalanche with serious consequences for the story.”
I’m aware the show sanded down the rough edges of characters like Tyrion and Cersei – perhaps in part (as posited by a commentary cited by arianacandle) because the showrunners wrote for Peter Dinklage and Lena Headey rather than the strictly conforming to GRRM’s portrayals of the characters. That’s understandable – though I gather from readers’ comments that both Tyrion and Cersei came off a lot more sympathetic on the show than they are in the books. I can’t say if that was good or bad.
Who knows? Maybe someday GRR van Winkle will awake from his stupor and finish the books so the fandom can enthusiastically discuss the differences between the show! and books! characters and storylines.
Adrianacandle,
Never heard of “Sharon Lois and Bram.” I’ll check them out though.
And yes, I do have a musical interlude for the day queued up. 😋 Actually, I’m trying to choose between: (a) a tribute to a Canadian singer-songwriter; (b) another rant about a movie that popularized a middling remake of a really good original song; or (c) a recent – and excellent – “quarantine” version of a classic song.
What say you?
I don’t know if you’d be interested in them now because Sharon, Lois, and Bram were a trio of children’s performers who developed songs for kids and families but they were quite popular in the 80s and 90s, especially with little kids! 🙂 From 1984-1989, their TV show, The Elephant Show, aired and then went into syndication throughout the 90s and possibly(?) the early 00s. They continued to perform live after the show ended and I think the two surviving members, Sharon and Bram, recently did their last concert ever (Lois died in 2015 but stopped doing the live concerns in 1998 after her husband died, I believe).
Still, no matter what age, their songs are catchy!
I watched an interview with Sharon and Bram recently and they were talking about looking out into the audience during a recent concert and for the first time ever, there were no actual kids in the front rows 😉 The generation that had grown up watching them were now adults and were attending their concerts as adults, kids or no kids!
I wish I remembered seeing them when I was 4 🙁
b!! I’m curious about the rant!
Adrianacandle,
Oh, okay! I’ll post the “rant” – a little later.
For now though, assuming most of us are still in lockdown, I figured I’d go with option (c): a “quarantine” version of a classic song.
Let me first say that I was never a rabid fan of the Doobie Brothers. However, their recent (April 27, 2020) Live in Isolation rendition of their 1974 song “Black Water” sounds really good… 46 years later.
———
Doobie Brothers – “Black Water,” Live in isolation April 27, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZLY2ht9iBM
——-
For comparison, here’s “Black Water” from their 1974 album.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km4-eKvv3EM
——
Ten Bears,
Thanks!!!
Adrianacandle,
Here’s the (semi-) rant about a remake. I have to post it in two parts because of multiple embedded links. The song is “Angel of the Morning.”
————-
Part 1 of 2
Here’s the original (1968) version of “Angel of the Morning” by Merrilee Rush.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24rYz9QAvdQ
The first time I heard this song – thanks to my older brother and his non-stop playing of his classic ‘45s oldies record collection – I was too young to even understand what the words meant. All I knew was that it sounded haunting and melancholy – and beautiful.
[Q: Does anyone know what instrument is playing in the intro to the song?]
Merrilee Rush’s 1968 rendition of “Angel of the Morning” was featured in the movie “Girl Interrupted” (1999), starring Winona Ryder.*
* Trivia: Angelina Jolie co-starred in “Girl Interrupted,” winning the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress for her performance. “Angel of the Morning” was written by Chip Taylor – real name James Wesley Voight – brother of Jon Voight and uncle of Angelina Jolie.
to be cont. in Part 2…..
Adrianacandle,
Part 2 of 2
In 1981, Juice Newton did a remake of the song. I wouldn’t say it’s terrible; it’s just not nearly as good as Merrilee Rush’s 1968 rendition.
“Angel of the Morning” – Juice Newton (1981)
(Music video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTzGMEfbnAw
However, Juice Newton’s video got extensive airplay on MTV and VH1. Her version of the song is featured in the opening titles of the movie “Deadpool,” and I think it’s also used in “It: Chapter 2” and other movies. As a result, more people are familiar with Juice Newton’s 1981 middling remake than the much better 1968 Merrilee Rush version.
———
P.S. On Nov. 2, 1995, Chrissie Hynde (of the Pretenders) sang “Angel of the Morning” when she guest-starred in Season 2, episode 6 of “Friends” as Stephanie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mOBtEHaMcA
Chrissie Hynde can do no wrong in my book, so I will not critique her take on the song.
I remember that scene!! She’s playing a performer who is replacing Phoebe and Phoebe is determined not to acknowledge her skill! (I think it is a lovely rendition)
“When I was playing ‘Su-Su-Suicide’, I got like– I got a $1.75. But then ‘Smelly Cat’? Oh. I got $0.25 and a condom. So now I just feel really bad for ‘Smelly Cat’.”
Yes, I’m afraid I’m most familiar with the 1981 version — I, in my musical ignorance, did not know it was a remake 🙁 I really liked listening to the original! It is a very beautiful song and I agree with your assessment that the 1968 original is particularly haunting.
One time, I saw a user with the username “Angelofthemorning,” which would automatically start this song a-playing in my head.
Ten Bears,
definitely in my musical wheelhouse, but I heard them on Colbert and he sounded just terrible!!! The kids were good tho and it was good to see him still playing. And yeah I should sound so good at 72!
Ten Bears,
🎶 “Well, beat the drum and hold the phone,
The sun came out today.
We’re born again,
There’s new grass on the field.”🎵
Im not a baseball fan but I smile everytime I hear this song!
The original Angel of the morning..aha!
It has been decades since I last heard that song.
Beautiful lyrics, great voice.
Thanks!
To add to the Angel of the Morning praise, it’s successfully replaced my week-long Who Stole the Cookies earworm — thanks, Ten Bears! 🙂 Your musical interlude achieved my hopes!
I’m having difficulty copying things over at present (manky laptop and I’m all fingers and thumbs on the Android phone) so can’t give an example. I became aware of a (French) Canadian singer called Joanie Banville whose voice I really like. I found out about her when looking for examples of the original French version of ‘On My Own’ from the musical version of ‘Les Miserables’. (Pronounced Jo-any Banville).
I popped here to say that if Ash reads this apparently there are some reprints (though there are some slight differences from the originals) of Classics Illustrated from 2019 on Amazon. I don’t know the name of the company printing them sadly.
Now, I am going to try and keep to my resolve of not mentioning the plot of ASOIAF unless it is on the forums but thinking about the end of the story line of Daenerys* I can see George RR Martin who is fond of subverting a trope or two having the story of Daenerys finishing thus. Apparently George RR Martin said something about a conqueror always being an enemy to the other side. I was certainly one who rooted for Dany in the early part of the story both book and dramatized versions and cheered inwardly when she acquired the Unsullied though I was finding book Dany a bit tiresome by the end of ADWD.
Dame of Mercia,
I popped here to say that if Ash reads this apparently there are some reprints (though there are some slight differences from the originals) of Classics Illustrated from 2019 on Amazon. I don’t know the name of the company printing them sadly.
I did not see those, they are published by Classics Illustrated 2015 (tho there are a few with dif publishers. ) Price is good, tho I prefer going to a more indie site to purchase. We’ll see. Thx for the heads up
Ten Bears,
Doesn’t matter if the books are good or bad when they’re finished. Hardcore book fans with just use it to shit on D&D even more.
Ten Bears,
Stannis was burning people alive way before season 5. They didn’t just all of a sudden make home decide to burn people. Tyrion is darker in the books but he story is extremely boring. I didn’t need two seasons of him sulking and asking where whores go every 5 minutes. Some things just don’t translate well to the TV screen.
•Oh good! Then maybe you’ll like the next installment of my “Crappy Remakes of Classic Songs” series. Stay tuned…
• P.S. Several other series in progress:
– Artists inexplicably re-making their own monster hits into total dreck. [Exhibit A: Eric Clapton’s acoustic “unplugged” version of the Derek & The Dominos classic, “Layla.”]
– Excellent re-makes or covers that transformed and vastly improved upon a decent original (the opposite of my “crappy re-makes” whingefest).
– “Forgotten” songs rescued from antiquity by filmmakers’ placement of the songs in their (recent) movies. (Quentin Tarantino and Spike Lee are good at this.)
– Game of Thrones Character Playlists. This originated here, in a long sub-thread a couple of years ago, with The Night King. I wish I could credit whoever got that sub-thread started. As I recall, one of our regular commenters – I forget who – joked that NK was really a romantic at heart; he was just shy, and all he needed was a cup of hot chocolate and mood music in the background. Suggestions for tracks on the NK Compilation Album came pouring in. (Tentative title: “Love Songs for the Long Night: Ol’ Blue Eyes is Back” – a nod to Frank Sinatra and his song, “Strangers in the Night.”)
I’ve been intending to start these Character Playlist(s) in the Forum Section to solicit suggestions. However, as you know, continuing difficulties encountered by many commenters in the Forum registration and activation process has prevented participation. 🤢
For sure. Many book readers have cited lines and catchphrases from the books that were or could become cheesy by repetition, and expressed their relief that those recurring bits of dialogue or internal monologue didn’t make it into the show.
Since I haven’t read the books, these examples are NOT verbatim. In addition to Tyrion’s “where do whores go” that you already cited:
– Jaime [thinking to himself or aloud about Cersei’s promiscuity and who she’s f*cked]: “….and Moon Boy for all I know.”
– Dany: “If [something] I am lost.”
– Dany: “I’m just a girl.”*
* (And thank goodness that didn’t make it into the show or I’d have to add No Doubt/Gwen Stefani’s ska song “I’m Just a Girl” to the Daenerys Compilation Album Playlist.)
I’m sure book readers can recite many more examples.
Ten Bears,
why you just don’t read the books?
Above when I put an asterisk by ‘of Daenerys’ it was because with names ending in ‘s’ I’m never quite sure if possession would be denoted by Daenerys’ or Daenerys’s. I’d heard it was either/or but the Society for the Protection of the Apostrophe would have it that it’s Daenerys’s. The website for that society is dormant now but its website was still there last time I looked.
I look forward to it! (I actually learn quite a bit from this — my knowledge in this area is pretty defunct :/)
Btw, what does “unplugged” mean?
Aw, that’s sweet 🙂 I like how he adopted Viserion too, very heartwarming moment <3 When he threw that javeline at Viserion, he really made a heart connection 🙂 Finally, Viserion was no longer #3 on the totem pole — he was NK’s #1!
Yes 🙁
I’ve always wondered about this too. I tend to use the extra ‘s’ after the apostrophe — maybe Stannis’s ghost can weigh in…
This might be terrible but that phrase always kickstarts Whitney Houston’s ‘Where Do Broken Hearts Go?’ in my head…
And now my Angel of the Morning earworm has just been introduced to new competition T_T
Adrianacandle,
“Unplugged” = not electrified, eg acoustic guitar instead of electric guitar.
Adrianacandle,
Try this for some earworm competition: a song from 1972 resurrected by Spike Lee for a buzz-generating dance scene in “BlackKklansman” (2018):
“Too Late To Turn Back Now” (1972)
Cornelius Brothers & Sister Rose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVZH3EzVZtk
—————
Dance scene from “BlackKklansman” (2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6synmrDXqU
at 0:55 to end
———-
mau,
He doesn’t want to end up like all the other book readers – stuck in pergatory forever. I would recommend he read the first three books. Those are solid, tight, and relatively self-contained, together forming a neat first half of the story. Everything after though… 👎
Ten Bears,
Thank-you!!! (And for telling me what unplugged means!) I’ll give those a listen while I make cookies in a bit! 😀
Adrianacandle,
… or try this one: “Tighter, Tighter” (1970) performed by Alive ‘n Kicking, and written by Tommy James (of Tommy James and the Shondells)
——
“Tighter, Tighter” (1970)
Alive ‘n Kicking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n14a9lZAz4
——-
Farimer123,
I really liked AFFC, but I didn’t like Dorne at all. I just couldn’t get into it, I can’t even justify its existence, it just feels so pointless. I struggled with ADWD, which is odd because the major characters are in it. Dany in Meereen is tough, everybody is travelling to her, while we are waiting for her to leave. fAegon is Ok, I have hopes for him influencing the story far more than Dorne.
Its like most double albums, somewhere in there there is an excellent book, but there is a lot of padding/treading water. I’d still recommend that people read them, though i’d wait until TWoW is nearing completion. So 2024.
Dame of Mercia,
Is there a Society for the Promotion of the Apostrophe? LOL!
During my learning English as a child I remember my teachers (natives all) saying that there is no need for -‘s when the noun/name ends in -s.
But then the books had it otherwise. It was confusing!
Now whenever I slip and put -s’s my editors (English or American) all correct it. (I also noticed that possession is not pronounced when it comes to names, when with a double s we tried to pronounce it.)
English is so blurred sometimes! I’m still struggling with the definitive article; I never know if it’s “the society” or just “society” in a normal sentence as in “medieval society is complex”. There are those who will write “the medieval society is complex” and those who prefer it without article (I’m one of them).
After careful consideration, I think it’s proper to let my editors decide, lol. I just sit back and enjoy what their new take will be regarding the articles, while pressing “accept” with the “track changes” option.
Oh Efi, there is indeed though as I say it is not being added to now. http://www.apostrophe.org.uk/
I once found an online British English to American English dictionary online. I’ve heard that some of the stranger and old-fashioned forming of plurals in the English (such as oxen for more than one ox but foxes for more than one fox and houses for more than one house but mice for more that one mouse) depends on the Anglo-Saxon roots of the words but I don’t have the knowledge to explain it personally unless I can unearth where it was explained to me. I say ‘a hotel’ but there are still some people who say ‘an hotel’. I don’t think either is really wrong – just that language and speech patterns and in a continuous state of flux and development.
However, what I came here to mention was that I received a blackmailing email last night. I shall delete it when I have managed to email it to the company with whom I have that email address. One of my emails was hacked a long time ago which I realised when people I email to sometimes got bizarre emails usually advertising something. I changed my password and carried on. Anyway, queue this bizarre email – usually the nutty ones get sent to Spam but this got through. Anyway this person said it seemed my password was (insert my VERY OLD disused password). He claimed he knew a lot about me and about my visits to pornographic sites (that’s more than I know* because I don’t visit any) and if I didn’t buy x amount of bitcoin and send it to a link he provided within the next 24 hours he would release that (non-existent) self stimulation video I made of myself to 9 random names from my Facebook (non-existent) list or mobile phone list (I’ve had a new phone and a new number since the one I used with the old password was in use). It would actually be quite funny (I’m in my early 70s after all) if it didn’t have the nasty aspect implied “Don’t try to be smart” and “the clock is ticking” “I have software which knows when you opened this email”. I went to the bitcoin site (not I hasten to add to buy any bitcoin) to report the scam. I hate being threatened or bullied even virtually. There were literally LOADS of people reporting the same scam. I guess they are playing the numbers game and hoping that out of all the people they are emailing some will be people that fit the criteria and will be daft enough to send the money. The bitcoin website said a lot of people use bitcoin as a commodity in their scams because it’s harder to trace than ordinary money. I’m posting about this just in case anyone visiting here has a friend or relation who receives one of these threatening emails in the hope nobody actually purchases bitcoin and sends it to these scoundrels and varmints.
Farimer123,
Fine, but it’s clear he is interested in the books. So why let other opinions influence you? Just form your own.
* Re: my above post. I did once do a search on a fairly innocent phrase (can’t remember which) and ended up with a recommendation for ‘pornhub’ but I remembered that my parents had dragged me up to be respectable and ignored any baser instincts to go there (LOL!!!).
I once did a search for dictation material (I try to keep up my Pitman shorthand) and was provided with a link. I ended up somewhere which said my computer had been frozen and to exit I had to pay £200!!!! LOL. It was ‘by order of the Ministry of the Interior’ – a British person knows the department as ‘The Home Office’ so it was obvious it was a foreign scammer. I switched off the computer and started again – no problems. Of course when I told friends and acquaintances about it they teased me unmercifully.
The year 2024 jumped out, because I’ve been following NASA’s Artemis mission where they prophesize we will have the first woman and next man on the moon in 2024!
I got so excited by the NASA channel and YouTube videos, I just ordered a new iphone case with the Artemis mission patch, but I digress. And I guess that’s what GRRM does so much of in the last two books that many whinge about. I do think alot of the problem was that he had to split them. They were meant to be one big book. I did enjoy reading them as one book following the boiled leather order. I also enjoyed a number of the probably meaningless tangents. The whole thing with Quentyn’s quest ended up not really meaning much and could have been edited out, but I really remember it! I can say some of the other tangents are less memorable. But Quentyn really had me on the floor laughing with his misguided quest.
Wedding and bedding Dany seemed to be the goal for so many in ADWD.
I know I’m a bit in the minority that I liked the ending of ADWD. Some said it was just a series of cliffhangers and it’s easy to just throw out a number of exciting cliffhangers. However, I can just report my emotions at the time of reading. I was really excited with Dany’s ending. I just remember loving how GRRM ramps up the action at the end of all of his books. I guess the cliffhangers worked for me since I’m still anxiously waiting to find out what happens next. I just hope we find out before we get back to the moon!
I’m sorry if I missed all the new discussions. I’m starting at the bottom and working my way up. btw, I watched the entire season of The Mandalorian with Pedro Pascal, and this thread is still going! Pedro was great and I quite enjoyed the season…
Tron79,
I think that’s a sign, Winds of Winter 2024 confirmed. I actually didn’t know that they were still doing missions to the moon, I thought they had set their sights on Mars.
I really like the end of ADWD too, ASOS is basically the end of a bunch of storylines, and AFFC starts a load of new ones. It’s not like the first 3 books didn’t end on cliffhangers/unresolved plots. I don’t really have an issue with that in an ongoing series. Dany’s ending is a real highlight and perhaps the first major turning point for her character. I think she has reached the end of her patience. Yes, I would have cut Quentyn entirely, I have a sneaking suspicion that Dorne is irrelevant, unless Arianne marries fAegon and ends up being the YMBQ. Otherwise I don’t see the point.
IIRC, Quentyn’s death was foretold in The House of the Undying, I think that whole sequence basically spells out the plot. This is why I don’t dismiss prophecy, all of the ones related to Dany have been true, including Quaithe’s warnings apparently.
Thanks for those three links! This one, in particular, is stuck in my head….
Oh wow. My grandpa follows this news very intently too, that is very very interesting. Do you know of any good documentaries about this? I’m pretty interested in this stuff as well! I heard of a mission to reach Mars, that it’s a one-way trip that’ll take 20 years?
I’ve been looking up how possible time travel within the same timeline is. It seems it’s technically possible to travel to the distant future but “such a trip would pose formidable engineering problems: the amount of energy required, even assuming a perfect conversion of mass into energy, is greater than a planetary mass.” However, “nothing in the known laws of physics would prevent such a trip from occurring.”
And this article was published 20 years ago! 🙂 I wonder if any advances have been made… I think I’d be more interested in traveling back through time than into the distant future. Yet that seems to be more difficult to do, a backward trip.
I agree about the prophecies. I re-watched an interview recently with GRRM and he’s talking about why the show didn’t do as much with the prophecies. He correctly pointed out that the show didn’t want to be tied down by them! (well, I’m paraphrasing). But that also tells me that even if some of George’s prophesies could have twists or be false in some way, George does have a plan. He knows he’s tied to those prophesies. He plans on fulfilling them in some way, even if they have a twist we didn’t foresee. So that does give me hope that he knows where he’s going…
Adrianacandle, here’s a NASA video with an overview
The idea is to have a sustainable presence on and around the moon that can be used as a launch point for the future mars mission. They also need to work out how the astronauts will survive and live on Mars. So this is basically a first step to get us to Mars one day. It’s part NASA and part commercial.
The trip to mars with current spaceship speeds I believe is less than a year. They project a mission would be at least a 3 year mission to go there and stay awhile and come back.. Your idea of time travel is interesting. You can go to the future if you go fast enough in relation to everyone else. Time will move slower for you the faster you move. But we don’t have anything that moves that fast yet that could have that effect.
I’m pretty sure they are projecting to have Mars missions in the late 2030’s, but the first step is do go back to the moon and establish a presence in space.
Dame of Mercia,
Saying I found an online dictionary online was an example of bad proofreading on my part. Where would an online dictionary be other than online? One ‘online’ too many!!!
It wasn’t so much the ending of ADWD that annoyed me but that it took such a long sprawling narrative to get there. Quentyn’s plot point with the dragons contributed to the atmosphere of confusion and mayhem in Mereen and Varys’s actions re: Kevan likewise gave a sense of foreboding of confusion in Kings Landing with no-one left to check Cersei. I just didn’t like the book as a whole as much as some of the earlier ones in the series. I’ve tried to write in a vague way so as to avoid spoilers for non-book readers.
Yes, exactly. I have often explained why I am reluctant to start reading the books: I do not want to be left hanging like the millions of other book readers who’ve been waiting for George van Winkle to wake up and finish writing the books.
(mau responded to one of my recent comments inquiring about details from the books with the statement/question: “why you just don’t read the books?”)
Frankly, at this point I do not believe it is humanly possible for GRRM to finish both TWOW and ADOS in my lifetime or his.
Besides, I have so many other books on my shelf I’ve been wanting to read, and only a finite number of years left to do so. It’s kind of hard to justify investing my time in an unfinished series of books.
Still, as you suggested, I may try to read the first three books at some point, because the consensus seems to be they were tight and well-written.
Or, I may just opt for the Boiled Chicken version of the five books, i.e., only chapters with Arya and Sandor: As far as I’m concerned, the “Mercy” sample chapter could serve as a fitting conclusion to Arya’s refugee storyline.
I could use my own imagination + commenters’ speculation to extrapolate her post-Braavos adventures. (And what the hell, in my alternate fanfic universe Sandor will go out in a literal and figurative blaze of glory defending his surrogate daughters – or not die at all. As his show! counterpart observed: “I’m a big f*cker and I’m hard to kill.”)
*ASNAWP
™️ talvikorppi (2018)
Efi,
English is a conglameration of languages, which explains some of the craziness. Bill Bryson has a fascinating book called Mother Tongue that you might be interested in reading. (not that will help you with confusion, but will give you an idea of what is happening. It is a very difficult language to learn, so don’t beat yourself up too badly 🙂
See my 2:10 pm comment.
And yes, I am curious about what’s in the books, though not enough to dive into them because I’m convinced they’ll never be finished.
I am also interested in book readers’ opinions. My second-hand knowledge of what’s in the books + poring over transcripts of 73 GoT episodes is enough to form opinions, even if from time to time I ask more knowledgeable book readers for their input. Nobody seems to mind. And if they do, I assume they just don’t deign to answer my questions. Which is fine.
Consistent with what you reported from the “Society for the Protection of the Apostrophe,” I was taught that the correct possessive form of a noun ending in an “s” like Daenerys – is “Daenerys’s.”
The exception to this rule is that the possessive form of nouns ending in a double s, like “Congress,” don’t get the apostrophe + s. (I guess a triple s – ss’s – would look too weird.) So, for example, a proper application of this exception would be: “Congress’ utter abdication of its oversight responsibilities allowed the lunatic to disregard restraints on his powers.”
I checked. King Stannis concurs.
Efi,
”During my learning English as a child I remember my teachers (natives all) saying that there is no need for -‘s when the noun/name ends in -s.
But then the books had it otherwise. It was confusing!
Now whenever I slip and put -s’s my editors (English or American) all correct it.”
Your teachers were wrong. Your editors are wrong. You are right.
Caveat: Eliminating the double-s (s’s) may be one of those instances when incorrect usage creeps into the language over time and eventually becomes so widespread it’s deemed acceptable.
Interesting. I was always taught you just put the apostrophe after the S and that’s it. I’ve never seen it as s’s. I did see one website today that did show it as Daenerys’s. Stannis would be pleased, but it looks totally wrong to me.
Ten Bears,
I was taught differently, I use Daenerys’ rather than Daenerys’s I think both are acceptable, though s’ is more common in British English.
My take on the prophecies?
– Magy the Frog is batting 1.000. All of her prophecies have come true and will come true. Big G may have a twist on a twist in mind for his reveal of “the little brother” who chokes the life out of Cersei. It will happen though – and Random Brick #354 won’t be the Valonqar.
– The other “ancient” prophecies and legends may have been based on some historical truths but became so embellished, exaggerated and muddled in the retelling over the millenia that they’re 90% unreliable. (Add a touch of religious overtones and any regular Joe Shmo from antiquity may be recast as a hero destined to be reborn to save the world.)
– By the way, a recurring theme in the show that was eventually jettisoned, was the way even over the course of a single generation the accepted, “official” account of an event is actually a complete inversion or total distortion of what really happened. (Ned “beating” Arthur Dayne in single combat is just one example. Like Bran, who said he’d “heard the story a thousand times,” a concocted cover story becomes accepted as historical fact. Rhaegar “raping and kidnapping” Lyanna vs. loving and eloping with her is another example.)
This is another reason why I suspect GRRM has some surprises in store for his reveals of the WWs’ origins and objectives; the TPTWP and Azor Ahai prophecies; etc.
I know it looks wrong. That’s why dropping the s is becoming acceptable.
Here’s another “rule” that’s disregarded (well, that I disregard) because it looks and sounds awkward. A writing instructor used this example:
In Captain Kirk’s voice-over spiel at the beginning of every Star Trek episode before the theme music kicks in, he says “…to boldly go where no man has gone before.”
Apparently, the grammatically correct phrasing should be “to go boldly….” or maybe “boldly to go.”. I forget which. That just didn’t sound right.
So I thought to myself: “F*ck the instructor. I’ll go with Captain Kirk.” And I have done so ever since. 🚀 ✨
This reminds me of Chilli’s joke from the Nathalie thread:
(I laughed!)
Thanks for this, Tron! I’m going to watch that video. I’ve been a very yay-space mood lately, particularly when it comes to stories featuring dystopian futures in which we must escape into space after an apocalypse 🙂 This sounds very odd but I like the idea of living in a well-organized capsule. One of my wishes is to visit a capsule hotel in Japan because I love capsules. Organizational capsules, living capsules, drug capsules…
As for Mars… I guess 20 years was slightly off, hey? XD
Yes, I found those theories on space travel really interesting! The closer you approach the speed of the light, the slower time becomes — including biological aging. And that, theoretically, time travel into the distant future is possible by the laws of physics but also impossible because of everything it requires to achieve.
…. For now…
We could time travel into the distant future to see if GRRM ever finishes… Would NASA be interested in this mission…
Oh dear. Where’s King Stannis when we need him?
In his absence, I consulted Strunk and White, “The Elements of Style” (4th Edition, 2000).
Rule #1 of Chapter I, Elementary Rules of Usage, on p. 1, states:
1. Form the possessive singular of nouns
by adding ‘s.
Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Thus write,
Charles’s friend
Burns’s poems
Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names ending in -es and –is, the possessive Jesus’, and such forms as for conscience’ sake, for righteousness’ sake.
———-
Just reading that Rule Hodorized my brain. I think I’m going to have to take a nap.
ash,
Actually, I don’t, they do. “You put an extra ‘s –how dare you, your English is bad, bad, bad! You write English without being a native speaker! Go back to school!” 😂
(seriously, that is the attitude)
I used to take it too personally thinking “is my English so bad?”
But then I realized what was going on and I relaxed about it, and it’s been years that I haven’t published anything in my native language (I don’t do it on purpose it just happened), so I feel more confident over time.
(I’m forgetting my own language though…)
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check it out. I’ve read similar things only they’ve been practical for helping me understand the basic differences between English and American English. More like Grammar books, but really helpful.
Ten Bears,
I raise you The Cambridge English Dictionary lol
When a first or second name ends in -s, we can either add ’ or ’s. It is more common to use ’ than ’s. When we speak, we usually pronounce the final part of the word as /zɪz/ or /sɪz/:
Is that James’ car?
I love Keats’ poetry.
And the BBC
Charles’ cat was naughty.
Charles is a singular noun that ends in an “s”, so you need to add an apostrophe to show that the cat belongs to Charles.
Ten Bears,
My latest editor now accuses me of “verbalism”.
I use epithets and adverbs too much, and far too many subordinate clauses and far too many participles.
I always go boldly wherever my unknown path takes me.
See what I mean? 😂
Tron79,
nteresting. I was always taught you just put the apostrophe after the S and that’s it. I’ve never seen it as s’s. I did see one website today that did show it as Daenerys’s. Stannis would be pleased, but it looks totally wrong to me.
I think s’ is for possession, not for plurals
That was a great video! I think I’m going to look up more (and if you have more to recommend, please let me know!) I can’t believe how much the fuel weighs 😱
Yes, the new botox treatment with space going commercial will be “Light Regeneration Therapy” where they send you at almost the speed of light around Neptune and back. You’ll look alot younger to everyone else when you get back! You won’t have aged but they will look old compared to you! Yeah, not sure if NASA will take up the GRRM mission though. It would be cool to design TWOW mission patch.
I was thinking more about space travel lately because of the at home isolation. In some ways #stayathome can be alot like staying up in the space station if you don’t go outside much (like me). You are in close quarters and have to figure out how to get along with your other astronauts. You have to be strategic about what supplies you store, how you sanitize, etc… So we’ve all just been in training for that future Mars travel one day!
Oh and Ten Bears
I think there would have been alot less trouble if Kirk wouldn’t have gone so “boldly” through the galaxy. But the TV show would have been boring. Just to go where no one has gone before would have been ok with me. Or maybe, “to go under the radar” where no one has gone before. Going under the radar would have been better. Why did it have to be so bold? There’s that prime directive where you aren’t supposed to influence other cultures by going boldly around town and showing off that cool phaser or sleeping with the very welcoming green alien girl.
Of late I have watched the news headlines and the Covid-19 updates rather than the deep analytical news programmes on TV but I’ve learned that the scam I was subjected to is called ‘sextortion’. A few people said they’ve received them and just ignored them which is what I did. The BBC site said a lot of people in Northern Ireland had received them. These sort of scams were unknown to me previously. I usually get phone calls telling me my computer has malware (as if I’d let someone random on the internet control my computer remotely) or that they are from BT and something is wrong with my hub (router). I did once check with BT when I had discontinued one such incoming call and the lady I spoke to confirmed it was a scam. I did once have someone lift my bank card under my nose at an ATM when I lived and worked in London (the old the cash machine is broken scam) so I’m not so rare and wonderful I can’t make a mistake. The bank didn’t charge me for the money the oik took on that occasion (£250). I did report that the card had been stolen straight away. That’s 10 years or more ago.
Efi without giving too much information or doxing yourself, do you have many minority languages in your country? In the UK we have Welsh and Scots Gaelic in some parts of Wales and Scotland but in France there seem to be quite a range of minority languages even if they aren’t spoken every day. The town where I lived is twinned with a Spanish town and some of the people who are involved with the town twinning are teaching themselves Catalan. Sorry I’ve rather diverted from missing GoT as the subject of this thread.
Efi, also I wouldn’t take any snooty attitude about your use of English to heart if I were you. I’ve seen things like – agenda’s – for the plural in English written by native English speakers when there is no possession and an apostrophe should not be used. An apostrophe is basically there to denote something left out but the “e” that used to be used in the English genitive was dropped a VERY long time ago so the apostrophe nowadays is used to differentiate between the nominative and genitive cases in the tiny, tiny remnant of noun declension that remains in modern English. There are some people who argue for the dropping of the apostrophe to denote possession saying that we rely on context in spoken English to know whether it is a case of possession or a plural so why not do so in written English.
But were you tempted to reply posing as a government official with The Ministry of Silly Walks?
Ten Bears,
I didn’t have the presence of mind to do so, though I get the Monty Python reference.
Dame of Mercia,
No, we don’t. We don’t have dialects either. The language spoken here is very homogenized. There’s a turkish-speaking minority which is recognized as muslim minority based on the treaties (not national turkish because it’s not only people of turkish origin). They are a small group and the younger generations tend to assimilate with the Christians in language and style. They live up north. Of course now we have lots of refugees from all over; most of them are from Syria and Afganistan but there’s also people from north Africa speaking various languages but they’re only passing by. Downtown I hear a lot of French with the characteristic African accent and lots of Turkish -northern Syrian must have similarities with Turkish but I know that lots of Turks live now in my country because they’re fleeing from their regime and many Turkish companies have opened up in my country in the past few years.
I received a suspicious e-mail the day before yesterday and I erased it immediately. I don’t know if it contained similar threats. It’s disturbing just to receive such an e-mail let alone read it. Don’t open them if you don’t know the sender. Mine was a curious sequence of consonants. It was so weird! A while ago, but every now and then I receive e-mails pleading for charity, of the type “I’ve lost everything please help me get back to my family” or sth like that and before that others that claimed I had an inheritance of some sort but to get it I had to help the executor of the will in some way. I was curious at first so I opened such e-mails, but now I don’t bother, off to the waste bin they are sent. The last one though I erased even from the waste bin; it seemed so suspicious with all those consonants!
So I’ve been watching The Last Kingdom lately. It’s good; it’s not GoT, but it will do. I was thinking of you and all those weird place names in the show and wondering how much English has changed over the centuries. Since I’m a historian I am intrigued. I don’t know much about English history but perhaps when I take my pension (it’s still about twenty years away but it will come) I’ll have time to take a plunge into early medieval history of England and see where are all those weird place names and which cities they are now. I always had a thing about historical geography and I like studying maps, because it shows the depth of time. When you are on a spot in ancient countries you can always think that the x or y person, king or philosopher or general or whatever was standing where you are standing. It gives you a whole different perspective about everything.
One of the good things about GoT is that there are maps and all kinds of different material floating around on the internet, so it’s easy to find details about everything. Martin took the map of Ireland, reversed it and duplicated it to create Westeros. A Wiki of Ice and Fire is an extremely good database about ASoIaF and incorporates things from all the books -and lately from F&B.
Adrianacandle,
The outsiders! Agh showing me age. Ya’ll still hare huh? A lot has changed inn the last year and not much for the better 🙁
Mr Derp,
It was fun when the spoilers would trickle in at Freefolk. Then after watching I’d get mad at myself. And do it again the next year 🙂
Tron79,
”…There’s that prime directive where you aren’t supposed to influence other cultures by going boldly around town and showing off that cool phaser or sleeping with the very welcoming green alien girl.””
Hmmm. I thought interacting with a very welcoming green alien girl was an express exception to the Prime Directive.
Adrianacandle,
For today’s musical interlude? A crappy remake rant? A resurrected gem? Or a GoT character tribute?
That’s right! ‘Nothing Gold Can Stay’ is referenced in The Outsiders! I think it’s when Ponyboy and Johnny are on the run, right? Great great novel 😀 This was a novel we studied in grade 7, it was my teacher’s favourite!
Resurrected gem, please!!! 😀
Today’s Musical Interlude
GoT Character Tribute: Daenerys Targaryen
“Conquistador”
Procol Harum, live with Edmonton Symphony Orchestra (1971)
🎶 “And though you came with sword held high,
You did not conquer – only die.”🎵
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT0loK0UEBQ
(at 3:01)
Adrianacandle,
Oh! Just saw your reply after my Daenerys song dedication. Lemme go find a resurrected gem…
Ten Bears,
I get that. but if you know they are not finished you can just read them as nice expansion of the first 4 seasons of the show.
To those who have wondered, re: Kevin. I reached out to Kevin on Steam and he got back to me today — he’s okay! He’s just dealing with some offline stuff but he said he’ll be back in the future! 🙂
😭 (And great song! Also… Edmonton! My city’s rival!)
Thanks!! And no rush! I consider your links a part of my musical education — I’ve been learning quite a bit from you! 🙂 So whatever and whenever you post links, I’m always happy to click!
mau,
Yeah, I guess so…. I’ve actually thought about getting the audiobooks narrated by Roy Dotrice, but every time I go online to order them I get sidetracked and want to watch him again in one of my favorite guilty pleasure movies, “The Cutting Edge” (1992).
In case you’ve never seen it and want to, here are the first two segments of the movie. (#3 – #12 should appear in the YouTube “Up Next” section under each clip).
Clip # 1 of 12 (Sort of a Prologue)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjqD4-TxHE8
Clip #2 of 12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz4GwRdDt7Y
Roy Dotrice appears (at 2:48) as Russian figure skating coach “Anton Pamchenko.”
And OMG isn’t Moira Kelly’s skating costume gorgeous! 😍
P.S. “Toe Pick!” ⛸ [Clip #3]
Ten Bears,
*Watches “The Cutting Edge” for… [checks notes] … 49th time.*
Ten Bears,
To be more precise, I would have preferred that Dany’s descent had been developed over a full-length ten-episode season so there would have been more time and more scenes devoted to other storylines.
But Dany’s Downfall is really the only storyline remaining after the Ragnarök at Winterfell. It’s a classic “twist” ending, so familiar from film noir and O. Henry, but made huge because this is a fantasy tale. There really are no other storylines, just ends of storylines, and those are tied up neatly and succinctly. That’s why Dany’s Downfall felt rushed: for the one and only time in the entire tale, there was only one real storyline running, and it was hers.
Adrianacandle,
Good to know Kevin is well. Thanks for checking.
For those of you who have HULU, I recommend checking out GREAT which dropped today. Matt Shakman of Spoils of War fame directed the first episode, which is why I’m posting this here on WotW! Shakman was “great” again. He has a way of mixing in the comic elements while still keeping the serious themes at the forefront. It was also shot beautifully so far, including the opening sequence with Elle Fanning on the swing. For those not familiar with GREAT it follows the story of Catherine the Great. I quite enjoyed the first episode, even though I was disturbed by the realities of how men treated women. I will watch the second episode this afternoon. I will admit that I don’t know that much about the history of these events. Is there a reason why the emperor of Russia was British? He at least had a British accent which seemed very odd unless I just missed something in history class (which I’m sure I did)
Adrianacandle,
To those who have wondered, re: Kevin. I reached out to Kevin on Steam and he got back to me today — he’s okay! He’s just dealing with some offline stuff but he said he’ll be back in the future! 🙂“
• By “offline stuff” I assume Kevin is hard at work on TWOW. I hope he will be “back in the future” so the fandom can bitch at him: “Where’s the damn book, Kevin!”
I’m semi-kidding. I looked at Big G’s “Not a Blog” last night. It revealed that he’s been busy…. promoting “Wild Cards,” and pontificating about the NY Jets and NY Giants of the National Football League. I’m sure ASOIAF book readers are ecstatic.
• Another thing I learned when I tried to access the “Mercy” chapter on his website. (It’s no longer posted there. It was replaced by an “Arianne” sample chapter.) I read his blog post dated March 27, 2014 [excerpt below] – the day after he had posted the since-replaced “Mercy” chapter. The embedded link to “Mercy” is no longer active.
Anyway, I did not know until I read his blog post entry from over six years ago that the first draft of the “Mercy” chapter had actually been written “more than a decade” prior to March 27, 2014, i.e., sometime around 2004. Here we are, 16 years later… and book! Arya still has not left Braavos.
———
Excerpt from GRRM Not a Blog 3/27/14:
“I mentioned that this chapter had quite a history. It’s true. The first draft was written more than a decade ago. Originally, it was intended to be the opening Arya chapter after the infamous “five year gap,” her first appearance in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS as initially conceived. Then it was supposed to be a part of A FEAST FOR CROWS, after I abandoned the five year gap and split the books. Then it was going to be the concluding Arya chapter in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. But it seemed more like an opening chapter than a closing one, so shortly before ADWD was published my editor and I agreed to remove it from DANCE and shift it over into WINDS. Of course, it has been revised, tightened, polished, and tweaked at every step of the way, so the version on my website has some significant differences from the “five year gap…”
• A tor.com article around the same time (March, 2014) noted that S4 of GoT was premiering the following month; that GRRM had shared the “Mercy” sample chapter with the showrunners before he posted it online; and (I think) reported that the showrunners had adapted it, in part, for the final scene in S4e1 (Arya repeating back Polliver’s words when he killed Lommy.)
So I have to surmise that since 2014, GRRM had not imparted any further information about Arya’s storyline.
Am I being cynical, or does this all mean that GRRM has not made any progress on Arya’s story for over sixteen years? (I’ve speculated that the show “borrowed” the Frey Pies-Manderly and LSH Frey extermination story lines from the books and grafted them onto Arya’s S6-early S7 show! storyline, and everything else after that were show-only creations without input from George.)
I don’t begrudge the big fella his free time. I know he is “not our bitch.” He ought to be able to spend his remaining years watching football, scarfing hot dogs, and writing Targaryen lore – whatever he feels like. I just don’t think his head has been into finishing ASOIAF.
Get crackin’ Kevin! 😎
Tron79,
Unfortunately, I don’t have Hulu. I like Elle Fanning. Based on your recommendation, I may drop HBO for good and start accessing streaming services.
Yeah, using English accents as a stand in for any international royalty seems to still be the mode for movie casters. Really, I bet there were one or two Russian actresses that would have been just fine. Ah well (I did watch that, as well as the Young Katherine series several years ago, both quite well done
I am now watching “Little Fires Everywhere” on HULU, series a very good adaptation of the book (and Reese Winterspoon is fantastic as the bitch from hell mother)
Ten Bears,
🤣
I don’t know how well GRRM is… progressing… but I think he has an outline of where he wants Arya to go? D&D did seem to know what GRRM had planned for every character’s story. In 2014, they said:
GRRM providing D&D with the Mercy chapter early might have been him providing a fully fleshed-out chapter rather than just notes or an outline?
From 60 Minutes:
But as to progress… well…
Yup!!!
I’m happy to provide the update! 😀
Ten Bears,
To be fair, I don’t think that Martin does not have a personal assistant, so I don’t think that the promotion stuff in his Blog are 100% his own. Promoting some work does not mean that he takes the time himself to post, and putting his name on sth does not mean that he is involved every step of the way into its production. People with money do not work that way (not that I would know, but if you’re doing everything on your own, why would anyone want to become rich? -ok, that’s a digression).
So what does he do with his time? No idea! He’s probably looking out of the window trying to find the appropriate epilogue for WoW, I hope.
But I think that Martin must have lots of stray material lying around, much of which must be raw and unpolished. It’s the way his work has progressed that indicates that, because he’s done a lot of things apart from ASoIaF in the long years of Ice and Fire silence. [perhaps he’s a Gemini. Geminis tend to do that, I hear] Somewhere in that mess there must be material that belongs either to WoW or DoS. When it will reach the public, if ever, is beyond anyone’s imagination…
Good point, he does mention his loyal minions 😉
Update (as of 5/15/20)
re: Con of Thrones, July 17 – 19, 2020
Orlando, Florida
“Con of Thrones 2020 is currently continuing as scheduled.”
https://www.conofthrones.net/about
—-
The Long Night is coming.
And the dead come with it.
– LC Jon Snow
Adrianacandle,
Musical Interlude of the Day: T-Rex
(Two-Parter)
Here’s sort of a Resurrected Gem that I was also thinking of using for an Ygritte character tribute:
🎶“The wild winds blow
Upon your frozen cheeks
The way you flip your hip
It always makes me weak.” 🎵
at 2:13 – 2:23 of “Jeepster” (1971) by T-Rex, 4:12 long. Used in Quentin Tarantino’s “Death Proof” (2007)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0-FwK6Rn1U
(Of course, that’s glam rock legend Marc Bolan on guitar and lead vocals.)
———
Here’s a short clip from “Death Proof” (1:04 long): Drinking shots of Chartreuse with Quentin Tarantino’s character as “Jeepster” plays on the jukebox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTw5lvr7afM
————
To be cont. in Part 2
I’d like a thread devoted to what we know about any possible sequels/prequels to the show. I know they filmed a pilot called something about Children of the Forest and then decided not to air it. But have they filmed anything else? What was it called if they did?
Has corona shut down any plans for future GOT shows? Does anyone know? Thanks!
Ten Bears,
Musical Interlude, Part 2:
T-Rex “Get It On (Bang a Gong)” (1971) [4:27 long]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEeHOOudKOw
This song has sentimental value for me (i.e., “You’re dirty sweet and you’re my girl.” 😘)
at 2:34:
🎶 ”Well you’re dirty and sweet,
Clad in black, don’t look back,
and I love you
You’re dirty and sweet, oh yeah
You dance when you walk
So let’s dance, take a chance, understand me
You’re dirty sweet and you’re my girl.”🎵
Trivia: Again, that’s T-Rex front man Marc Bolan on guitar and lead vocals.
On background vocals, that’s Mark Volman and Howard Kaylan aka Flo and Eddie of The Turtles (“Happy Together,” “Elenore,” and “She’d Rather Be With Me”), and Frank Zappa’s Mothers of Invention.
Adrianacandle,
Thank you most kindly for the quote which demonstrates nicely what many of us have been saying all along: D&D followed whatever direction they were able to extract from GRRM, and that includes his fates for all the major characters:
“Last year we went out to Santa Fe for a week to sit down with [Martin] and just talk through where things are going, because we don’t know if we are going to catch up and where exactly that would be,” Benioff says in the April issue of Vanity Fair. “If you know the ending, then you can lay the groundwork for it. And so we want to know how everything ends. We want to be able to set things up. So we just sat down with him and literally went through every character.”
Now, if Martin had provided Benioff and Weiss with actual books instead of just an outline they had to go and get from him (!), their ending might have flowed better, or had more subtle aspects to the characters’ decisions, or more of the scenes some viewers wanted, or whatever. But he didn’t, so here we are.
Efi,
”To be fair, I don’t think that Martin does not have a personal assistant, so I don’t think that the promotion stuff in his Blog are 100% his own…”
Point taken. However, the extended commentaries about the NY Giants and NY Jets 🏈 are 100% Big G. If he devoted the same enthusiasm and word count to writing TWOW, you’d be reading it right now.
Well, don’t give up your HBO yet. I watched two more episodes today. Shakman only directed the first episode, and I did see a difference in his episode than the others. The plot is moving along a bit too slowly for me. I’m going to keep watching the rest though. You can probably get a free week of Hulu. They always have free trials.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the musical interludes for today!! I’ll listen while I sand in a bit! 😀
Yep 🙁
Adrianacandle,
”Thanks for the musical interludes for today!! I’ll listen while I sand in a bit! 😀”
Sand? As in sandpaper? Sanding? I could probably find a song for that….
Well, next up – for tomorrow – is going to be another Crappy Remake Rant.
Ten Bears,
Yes! I’m having a wickedly difficult time painting this rocket. I keep getting brush strokes and streaks so I’m going to sand down the coats I applied, add some Floetrol to my paint, and use it in a sprayer that works with latex paint — hopefully, that’ll give me the smooth coat I’m after. I think the problem is I have no experience with home decor painting. I’ve been taught to paint with watercolour, oil, and acrylic thanks to art school! But those skills don’t exactly transfer… and I’ve never been great at painting. I even got this fancy brush that promises “no brush strokes.” Pfft… or I just really suck at this stuff (I do. Priming gave me no end to my agony). I’ve never even painted furniture before -_-
Sanding songs would be great though! XD
YAY!
Just now I’m circling around a complete rewatch of the whole GOT, want to choose the right time to start. It will only be my third.
Tron79,
Arya “A Girl has no name” meme
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2019-05/14/12/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-03/sub-buzz-18462-1557851621-13.png?downsize=700%3A%2A&output-quality=auto&output-format=auto
Thanks for that… Regarding concussions, I was surprised with how many athletes, both men and women have a history of concussions in high school and college sports. All of those head balls seem to have an effect.
btw, GREAT is not so great now! As I said in an earlier post I enjoyed Shakman’s work, but the rest of the series has been difficult to get through. I’m almost at the end, just because I’m a determined person and I want to see if the plot ever is going to move to the part I was hoping to see after episode 1! It has some comic moments and lots of sex acts, but I was hoping for more than just the raunchiness after seeing the first episode. It really has dissolved into pointless dribble. I am sad. I had higher hopes. They only had Shakman direct episode 1.
I got my brother’s book today that I ordered from Amazon. I’m not sure how many others have ordered his book, but he at least sold one copy! It’s about time travel, so I’m going to read that book next. Then I will have to decide whether to order Fire and Blood. I may still wait until closer to when House of the Dragon comes out to read Fire and Blood, and that’s still going to be quite some time.
Has “Two weeks to live” come out in the UK yet? When it comes out, I have to figure out a way to see it here in the USA with some VPN to someone in the UK or some other round about way…
That’s all for now…
Tron79,
Greetings from my Sky Cell!
I’m still hoping to see “Mary Shelley” with Elle Fanning and ASNAWP – I mean Maisie Williams.
I haven’t heard or read anything about “Two Weeks to Live” being released yet. I too would like to watch it if it is somehow available in the U.S.
Tron79,
… and here she is on the cover of the Summer issue of “Wonderland” magazine.
https://www.wonderlandmagazine.com/2020/05/15/maisie-williams-summer-issue-cover-reveal/
Tron79,
… and now “New Mutants” is supposed to be in theaters on August 28, 2020 (after getting delayed from April because of the greyscale pandemic).
(Are people really going to flock to movie theaters in three months??? If anything, I thought drive-in movies might make a comeback because of social distancing protocols.)
https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/the-new-mutants-disneys-x-men-spinoff-starring-maisie-williams-to-now-release-on-28-august-8366981.html/amp
WOW. The camera loves her. And she rocks that outfit.
I switched from Elle Fanning to her older sister Dakota I’m rewatching “please stand by”. I was on the second to last episode of GREAT and I couldn’t take it anymore so I decided to switch to another Fanning with a movie that I really liked. This is one of those small movies with a unique character (I’m not sure her exact diagnosis but Dakota I think has a type of autism) It has a nice Star Trek tie in. I can’t think of any GOT tie ins though but you never know.
I was not crazy about Mary Shelley and Maisie had a very small role which was most of the reason I didn’t care for it that much.
Ten Bears,
I’ve thought about this, and honestly no. When theatre’s reopen, I need to see some concrete proof that it’s safe to go. Nolan is really pushing for Tenet’s release in July, but i’ll be surprised if it goes ahead. Either way, I won’t be going. I want to go before Christmas though. I saw an article saying that people need to go as soon as theatre’s reopen, because they are in danger of closing permanently. That’s true, but I’m not risking my health for a movie, I’ll stick to VOD for a while.
May I take a moment to reflect on nudity and violence that we see on screen?
I get it, producers and directors use both these means to draw the audience. Especially credible death scenes and graphic injuries (for lack better description) are always a challenge for directors and they strive for the best.
In reality, much of that is not needed when the story is good, and they are never enough when the story is not good.
I am not one of those who are scandalized by nudity; on the contrary, it is always a pleasure to see a well-shaped, beautiful body, male or female. You should appreciate beauty when you see it and if you don’t, well, you’re unhappy and bitter as a person. I am not appalled by violence either because I know it’s fake.
But… honestly, it has become too much. It has become a means to draw the audience, often at the expense of a good story. The good story can even be abandonded in favor of nudity or violence. People get stuck in front of their screens not for watching the story unfold, but to see the protagonist or his/her stand-in get naked again, or for seeing who will be the next to die in what manner.
And in all this accuracy is also abandoned for making a mediocre series like Versailles or “The Great”, “edgy” and “interesting”. People were not free to get naked before audiences in past times, especially not in palaces, where prudishness reigned as a rule. And also, people didn’t go around killing other people for sport or just because they could. Kings of course had mistresses, and queens had lovers, but in public propriety was all that mattered, pretence and “dignity”. You may have your mistresses/lovers, but no one was ever going to see their ass and the church pretended they didn’t know, and even though putting people to death could become very graphic especially in western Europe it wasn’t a daily sight and it probably wasn’t (it couldn’t have been) a sight people enjoyed.
So in Gunpowder we got to see what also took place in Braveheart (1995) but the camera didn’t show then. In Gangs of New York (2002) violence was out of proportion, as was nudity in Versailles. I find that Netflix, that is interested in historical films, replicates the Battle of the Bastards over and over in its protrayal of the most natural battle scenes possible. They mostly go for the dirt and the gore of it all, but violence is not too far behind. Now that it has taken over The Last Kingdom violence seems to have increased but I’m still to finish season 3; nudity had diminished in season 2, and thankfully in season 1 it wasn’t too provocative. Don’t get me wrong, Alexander Dreymon is a very beautiful man, but his nudes were totally unnecessary. And as for GoT, well, I have no words. Bronn with two or three girls completely naked, why? Why couldn’t it have been a tavern scene with a girl or two sitting on his knees?
When you can execute a scene without nudes then perhaps you should (people don’t walk around naked unless they’re in their own rooms and no one watches). When you can show a battle without the graphicness of heads splitting open by a hatchet and rivers of blood springing from cut throats as if from a fountain then perhaps you should (i.e. blur the image, or have the camera take a distance).
[Or show everything afterwards. There’s a source describing how after a certain battle the boots would sink ankle-deep into gore. I am still to see that; for some reason after the bloodiest battle the ground is all neat and dry -well, not exacty in Outlaw King.]
If not for respect to the audience, then perhaps as a statement and taking distance from the trend that appeals to the audience’s lowest enstincts and more twisted fantasies. As a statement that directors and producers refuse to objectify young actors and actresses.
As a statement that we’re here to tell you something; we’re going to tell you a story that you’ll really like.
[and then I woke up; it was all a dream and it was again all nude and violent for the sake of making money. Sigh.]
Jenny,
I saw an article saying that people need to go as soon as theatre’s reopen, because they are in danger of closing permanently. That’s true, but I’m not risking my health for a movie, I’ll stick to VOD for a while.
The motion-picture theatre is a leftover from the past century, when it arose as a natural progression from live theatre. Now we’re all equipped with home theaters, so mass-market movies will be released the way other entertainment software — video games — are, via internet. Big-budget blockbusters (e.g. the next James Bond thriller) may hang on for awhile, but eventually only us film buffs will go to art houses for movies.
The great success of Game of Thrones was a large part of this evolution. A long-format theatrical film may run for as long a three hours in the West, or seven hours in India, but to tell a really epic story, the multi-episode format is required. (One of the better ironies was how a six-episode ending to a 73-episode story felt “rushed”!)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
cc: Ten Bears,
Gah, I just realized I accidentally misattributed a quote from Tensor’s post to Ten Bears here. My sincere and deepest apologies to both of you for this mistake!! 🙁 🙁 🙁
Adrianacandle,
No apology necessary! 😉
In fact, although I don’t always agree with Tensor in our always-civil exchanges, I’d have to concur with Tensor’s assessment…
Tensor the Mage etc. wrote:
”Now, if Martin had provided Benioff and Weiss with actual books instead of just an outline they had to go and get from him (!), their ending might have flowed better, or had more subtle aspects to the characters’ decisions, or more of the scenes some viewers wanted, or whatever. But he didn’t, so here we are.”
1. Under normal conditions, I am a voracious consumer of performances – theatre, cinema, dance, music/opera (slightly less!). But now, I cannot imagine when I would return to the old formats. I will likely return to open-air events first.
2. I hope we do not lose this segment of life. For me watching a performance with an audience is a markedly different experience from watching in my home. There is something communal about it that I really like. There is a special “fission” in a live performance and “energy” in the audience experience whether theatre or movie or other. It is hard to describe. I suppose in the same way that watching live sport is different from watching at home. (Although in sport, I prefer watching at home!)
3. For movies, I suppose higher prices, spaced out seats, masks and a cleaning kit for me to scrub my seating area. I do not know what will work. At least at movies, there is not much spitting. In a play there a bit more fluid from the performers so maybe keep the first two rows empty and the same cleaning kits as for movies.
4. One of the very impressive things I noted was that China offered financial support to bookstores very early. They decided that bookstores were a national good and gave money support to keep them open.
I wonder if, in addition to giving money to car companies and banks, other govts. will see the arts as a national “good” and support them as needed. What became of the National Endowment for the Arts?
Ten Bears,
Thanks, Ten Bears!
(And I’ll be more aware of who said what in the future! 🙂 I, too, concur with your quoted portion of Tensor’s assessment)
Efi,
I typed a fairly long comment, Efi, but my laptop shut itself off and re-started. I’d said I watched the first two seasons of ‘Versailles’ but as each season veered further away from what actually happened in history I didn’t bother watching season 3. I was familiar with the actor who played the King’s brother from the BBC’s ‘Merlin’ (which was a guilty pleasure of mine). With Versailles I used to visit two blogs ‘Party Like 1660’ and ‘JulesHarper’ to get an idea of what really happened. I thought the show was well acted but really the reign of Louis XIV was interesting enough without making stuff up and changing what actually happened in history. I was disappointed because I have liked what I have seen of Canal+’s French spoken thriller ‘Engrenages’/Spiral though I need the subtitles and French is supposed to be a language I can speak. “Great” I haven’t seen so can’t judge. There have been worse shows than ‘Versailles’ (in my opinion anyway). “Reign” with Mary Queen of Scots having her ladies-in-waiting dressed in 21st century prom dresses I stopped watching pretty early on – same with “The White Queen”. Again too many changes from history.
I have seen some shows I enjoyed which weren’t strictly speaking true to history but that was where I didn’t know what happened before I watched the show (or film).
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”…The motion-picture theatre is a leftover from the past century, when it arose as a natural progression from live theatre. Now we’re all equipped with home theaters, so mass-market movies will be released the way other entertainment software — video games — are, via internet. Big-budget blockbusters (e.g. the next James Bond thriller) may hang on for awhile, but eventually only us film buffs will go to art houses for movies.”
Reply From: Ten Bears, Whose Words Carry the Same Iron of Life…and Death
To: Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending
Whether or not the contagion is hastening the already-in-progress demise of movie theaters, I can’t understand why the industry hasn’t already shifted to video on demand.
As Jenny wrote at 4:17 am, “Nolan is really pushing for Tenet’s release in July.” At 9:00 pm last night, I whinged that Maisie Williams’s long-delayed “New Mutants,” previously bumped from an April 3, 2020 release date, is now supposed to be “in theaters” on August 28, 2020 – and questioned whether audiences will flock to theaters so soon, especially in the absence of containment of the virus.*
………
* I for one believe the scientists who say that the only way out of this clusterf*ck is through massive testing + contact tracing + quarantining. It’s not going to magically disappear. “Opening up” is f*cking insane, and yet my state’s governor has given the green light to “opening up” starting tomorrow.
And it’s starting to look like “surviving” infection is a misnomer: Even those who are asymptomatic or only have “mild symptoms” may suffer long-term damage to their organs. (“Mild” is a misnomer too: From many accounts, “mild” symptoms = weeks or even months of torture.)
…..
Sorry. Back on topic🎬📽🎥
I’d pay $25 to watch “New Mutants” at home instead of waiting for it to arrive in theaters and then spending that much to buy a ticket + a tub of cruddy popcorn. With the risk of infection multiplied by packing theatergoers into crowded movie theaters, there’s no way I’m going to go to the multiplex to see a movie any time soon, let alone this summer.
Also, from what I understand, “social distancing” of audiences (i.e., seating 6 feet apart) won’t be profitable. Half-empty theaters aren’t the answer from an economic standpoint, apart from the health risk that many – or most – of us are unwilling to assume. (One sneeze from a careless goofball a few rows over is all it’d take to “super-spread” the virus. Count me out.)
I want to see “New Mutants” now.. I want to see “Two Weeks to Live” now.. Take my money!
What am I missing???
Yes, a good sneeze ruins the whole thing.
It will not go away by magic. It will not go away by ignoring it or changing how we count the dead.
Widespread testing, isolation and quarantines are needed until we get a cure.
I am even a bit suspicious about the rush to a vaccine in just months. I think we risk getting a useless potion sold to us as a vaccine just to meet political goals and at the same time earning millions for those in on the scam.
Mango,
FYI/FWIW: From what I’ve read, some of the earliest “super-spreading” events were choir rehearsals. Apparently, singing and projecting one’s voice involves the forceful expulsion of aerosolized particles.
If true, it would seem that performers onstage would likely infect each other, more so than the audience.
Live concerts, plays, musicals and Broadway shows might be a relic of the past. I too will miss the communal experience and the collective energy of attending sporting events and concerts.
Absent a vaccine [at least a year away] or massive testing + contact tracing + quarantining of those exposed [which many governments have inexplicably failed to do, squandering the opportunity gained by months of lockdowns], a return to live performances could be years away. Theaters, arenas and concert halls might very well go belly up in the meantime.
I don’t mean to sound like Mr. Buzzkill. Nor would I want to sound like the dismissive Citadel Maesters who frustrated Samwell Tarly by laughing off Bran’s warnings as either some kind of ploy, or a fairy tale told by a crippled boy who talked to magic birds.
(from S7e5)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FibAyg3vO9A
——
You and Mango have already done a good job with articulating my own fears over re-opening and rushing vaccines but I wanted to comment on this as well. I’m wondering the same thing — we’re already so far into the digital media age, why aren’t there options like video on demand or things like special online events? Scheduled paid-per-access streaming options at this time?
There are reasons for everything and I expect one reason is because it would result in quite a loss of revenue generated at movie theatres (ie. concession stand sales). Perhaps there is a greater risk of piracy when films are being viewed pre-release at home (there’s nobody around to catch discreet recordings — but like that’s ever stopped pirates before).
Still, while I appreciate the social aspect of movie-theatre-going, there are some less lovely aspects as well (my misophonia over eating sounds, like popcorn crunching, has made movie theatres a torturous experience and I have to have wax earplugs jammed down into my ear canal — and that’s still not enough). In an industry which utilizes so much digital progress, that movie theatres are still the only way to watch a movie pre-release sticks out like a sore thumb to me.
(Also, congratulations on being the 700th comment!)
Yeah. With this kind of mindset…
https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1253474772702429189
——
https://mobile.twitter.com/bettemidler/status/1261490771963805696
——-
Ten Bears,
“This is why the whole concept of tests isn’t [sic] necessarily right.”
https://mobile.twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1259223035971805185
——
Adrianacandle,
I was #700? 😎
Moving along then… time to queue up (or is it “cue up”???) today’s Musical Interlude.
I was thinking of a Jorah Mormont character tribute (“Turn to Stone”).
Upon further reflection I think I’ll go with the Crappy Remake Rant I was planning. (In this instance, I was unaware of the original when I heard the sanitized, cringeworthy cover used as a jingle for a TV commercial for what I thought was some kind of feminine hygiene product; turns out it was for an oral contraceptive/moderate acne treatment.)
to be cont…
Ten Bears,
Yes…the many benefits of disinfectant. hahhhaaaa! Genius at work.
Any proposed vaccine will endure the proper clinical trials before any application. We have rather more to fear from “potions” being peddled outside the process. (Having a so-called leader ramble on about the restorative application of cleaning products to the lungs does not help, of course…)
Also, I’d like to express my appreciation for y’all’s quoting of my comment about how GoT ended the way it did. Given that Martin produced five books over fifteen years, 1996 – 2011, D&D were not wrong to hope he could produce the last two volumes before they had to plan their ending. (Or, at least, one book and also a fully-formed idea of how to get to an ending.)
Sadly, until we either (a) obtain an efficacious vaccine, or (b) the virus works its way through the entire human population multiple times, my beloved local edition of the Quill & Tankard will remain restricted to offering their delicious ales “to go.”
Hefting my growlers aplenty!
Yes, I really hope for a good vaccine as quickly as possible.
I do not know anything about vaccine development so I have to read the internet reports with high skepticism as I cannot tell which stories are more reliable. But from a quick read on the internet, it appears that even vaccines that are rushed can take forever. Ebola was a rush and that took 5 years.
And approved vaccine by the FDA and CDC can go wrong. In 1976, 45 million Americans were vaccinated with a product that later had to be withdrawn. This was under President Ford responding to another coronavirus. Vaccine sickened and/or killed a bunch of folks. And of course, the anti-vaxx movement prolly know more about these events. (I am not anti-vax)
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
” Also, I’d like to express my appreciation for y’all’s quoting of my comment about how GoT ended the way it did. Given that Martin produced five books over fifteen years, 1996 – 2011, D&D were not wrong to hope he could produce the last two volumes before they had to plan their ending. (Or, at least, one book and also a fully-formed idea of how to get to an ending.)”
Yeah, I’ve often had to remind myself that Benioff & Weiss signed on to adapt GRRM’s ASOIAF saga – not finish it for him. Even George, in his early interviews, dismissed as remote the chances that the show would pass the books.
I can only imagine the uproar if GoT went on hiatus after S4 or S5 to wait for Big G to catch up. We’d still be waiting, wouldn’t we?
I’ve also suggested that GRRM ought to have stayed involved with the show and continued contributing scripts. After all, his reason for disassociating himself from the show, to concentrate on writing the books, probably had the opposite effect: his head was no longer immersed in the fictional world he created. His early-2000s blog posts showed how excited he was, e.g., about casting actors for the first few seasons. That excitement has been gone for a long time. Now, his sporadic updates make it seem like finishing the books is sheer drudgery – like stressing out over an overdue term paper.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
”…Sadly, until we either (a) obtain an efficacious vaccine, or (b) the virus works its way through the entire human population multiple times, my beloved local edition of the Quill & Tankard will remain restricted to offering their delicious ales “to go.”
Two comments…
• Sadly, there was an option (c): listen to the experts and intelligence community early on, and contain the virus with massive testing and contact tracing while ramping up production of protective equipment, ventilators, testing kits and supplies, etc. We (U.S.) could’ve contained the outbreaks, and limited fatalities to a few hundred rather than 100,000+ and counting. History will record this as a tragic, avoidable loss of life. How pitiful for “the richest country on earth.”
• Scenario (b), “the virus works its way through the entire human population multiple times” is not something I even want to fathom.
– I have a low threshold for any kind of pain or discomfort – physical or emotional. I don’t think I could endure even a “mild” case – gasping for breath, as if forced to inhale fluids by the Drowned God; and burning up with fever as if torched at the behest of the Red God like Shireen [Too soon?]; and feeling like my chest and spine were ripped apart by wights like Hodor [Again, still too soon?]
– At this point it seems like being asymptomatic vs. being hospitalized and hooked up to a ventilator is a crap shoot. Age, “co-morbidities” like diabetes, asthma, immunosuppressive conditions, and other factors may or may not determine if infection is lethal.
If it came to that, I don’t think I could endure weeks on a ventilator. I might be tempted to elect the way out that Maester Ebrose presented to Jorah. In the absence of a less grueling treatment than Sam administered to Ser Jorah, I doubt I’d want to roll the dice on a 50% – 50% chance (at best) of surviving Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome making it impossible to breathe and a Cytokine Storm ravaging my organs.
If it progresses that far, I’d be tempted to channel Ser Jorah….
Jorah to Dany: “I’ll end things before that.”
at 1:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnNbstXl2FY
—-
Sorry. I’m not willing to be a “warrior” (i.e., a casualty) in the fight for herd immunity that the f*ckwits in charge seem to be adopting as their new approach to the pandemic.
Requests for anyone who can answer:
When was the first time D&D declared they wanted GOT to be around 70 episodes long? I think it was around 2013, when they were making S3, but if you know for sure, can you find me an article proving it?
Also, when did the news come out that D&D had signed on to make a SW trilogy? Was it 2018? Again, an article of proof would be helpful.
See, some of my friends who get most of their news from Facebook and Reddit are buying into that horseshit that D&D rushed the ending of GOT so they could do SW, and I’m pretty sure it’s not true, but I need proof.
Ten Bears,
You were!!
I am curious….
Okay then. I may have to post it in three parts. My rule of thumb is that embedding more than two links in a comment triggers the site’s algorithms that banish a comment to Moderation Purgatory.
Farimer123,
Looks like Feb 2018.
Are you thinking of this answer from this Entertainment Weekly interview with James Hibberd (‘Game of Thrones season 8 showrunners interview: ‘This is where the story ends’’. Entertainment Weekly. April 9, 2019):
(I’m sorry I can’t directly link it, I’m limited to one link per post before it’s sent into moderation :/)
I hope that helps!
Yes, a hard lesson I too have learned….
And thanks!!
Farimer123,
Here. Hope this helps:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/ew.com/article/2014/03/11/game-of-thrones-7-seasons/%3famp=true
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ign.com/articles/2018/02/06/game-of-thrones-showrunners-to-write-produce-star-wars-movies%3famp=1
Young Dragon,
Nice, you got the original 2014 interview! 🙂
Adrianacandle,
Thanks! I remember one of them said something about how there would be seven seasons for seven kingdoms, and that made it easier to find.
Thank *you*! Now I have this article as part of my reference collection! 🙂
Young Dragon,
Thanks! By the way, that 2014 EW article linked a
June 9, 2013 EW article:
https://ew.com/article/2013/06/09/game-of-thrones-future/
That was right after the conclusion of Season 3. The article stated, in pertinent part:
”Sunday’s finale cut off the action roughly two-thirds of the way through George R.R. Martin’s third Ice and Fire novel, A Storm of Swords. There are two more books left unexplored (A Feast for Crows, A Dance With Dragons), which will present a few manageable adaptation challenges. Martin is working on his sixth book (The Winds of Winter) and plans a seventh (A Dream of Spring), but there’s no guarantee either will be ready in time for Thrones’ annual production schedule, or even that the seventh novel will be Martin’s last entry in the series.
Season four, at least, should be relatively straight-forward. Martin’s story provides a strong map for the near-term.
****
Of greater concern is the pace of books vs. seasons. It’s an issue that fans pointed out from the moment the show was greenlit and now even HBO is beginning to realize there could be an issue. Book 5 took Martin six years to write and it was released in 2011. “I finally understand fans’ fear — which I didn’t a couple years ago: What if the storytelling catches up to the books?,” says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “Let’s all hope and pray that’s not going to be a problem”
***
Martin, for one, isn’t worried. The way the author sees it, producers have plenty of material to keep Thrones rolling. “I think the odds against that happening are very long,” Martin says when asked about the show catching up to his novels. “I still have a lead of several gigantic books. If they include everything in the books, I don’t think they’re going to catch up with me. If they do, we’ll have some interesting discussions.”
***
If the production does reach a crux point — if the fifth or sixth season wraps, say, and there’s no new book on the shelf, well … you might then see some maneuvering that would impress even Tywin Lannister. Martin has told the showrunners his top-secret end-game plan for Ice and Fire, but wouldn’t be thrilled with the TV series progressing into that territory before he published his books. “I don’t think I’d be happy with that,” the author says. And neither would the producers. “We still have our fingers crossed that George will get there,” Weiss says. “That’s what’s best for us, it’s what’s best for the fans. We’ll cross that bridge when we get there.” Adds Benioff: “Ideally the books come out first.”
There are alternative possible tactics to keep the show on track, too.
Thrones could take a hiatus to let Martin catch up. That would be very expensive, or very risky — TV shows are like sharks, they have to keep moving forward to survive. You either have to pay actors or release them from their contracts (showrunners too, for that matter). Once released, there’s no assurance HBO could book the show’s talent again…
***
And so everything comes back around to the person who started this saga — Martin. You feel reluctant to ask the author how far along he is on his new book. It’s such pestering question, one he’s asked constantly. Martin was besieged by fan impatience for years leading up to the publication of Dragons. Now that Thrones is a worldwide smash, that pressure has only magnified. Every online story posted on anything the man says is accompanied by fan comments demanding he get back to writing Ice and Fire. It’s like having an impatient editor who is pressing you to meet a deadline — only there’s millions of them.
Still, fair or not, you must ask too: So …. how’s that next book coming?
“I’ve given up answering that question,” says Martin, with only a hint of terseness. “I’m working on it and it will be done when it’s done. Hopefully it won’t be as long of a wait as the last book.”
***
This [June, 2013] update on the progress of TWOW was as of seven years ago. 🤢
Adrianacandle,
Musical Interlude:
“There She Goes” crappy re-make rant
Part 1 of 3
(Crappy 1999 cover version in Part 1, followed by 1988/1990 original in Part 2.)
——
I did not know about the 1990 original version of this song when I first heard the sanitized 1999 cover version by Sixpence None the Richer playing in the background of a TV commercial that aired in 2004 or 2005 as part of an ad campaign for an oral contraceptive & moderate acne treatment product (Ortho Tri-Cyclen Lo).
“There She Goes” cover by Sixpence None the Richer (recorded 1997; released 1999) – Music video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68MKLkNSMN4
Aside from the fact that I was not among the targeted demographic for this product – and the TV commercial was kind of vague about what it was advertising (I thought it was for some kind of feminine hygiene product: it just showed happy young women just being … happy about something, accompanied by a fluffy soft voice singing “There she goes”), the jingle didn’t really register with me as anything special.
Nor did the music video, even though it got extensive airplay on MTV and VH1 – and has since gotten millions of hits on YouTube.
P.S. No slight intended against Sixpence None the Richer or its lead singer, Leigh Nash. I didn’t dislike some of their other songs, e.g., “Kiss Me” used in the Rachael Leigh Cook & Anna Paquin makeover scene in the 1999 movie “She’s All That”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nimkNFEKUkY
I just thought that their remake of “There She Goes” was a poor substitute for the original…
See Part 2 to follow.
to be cont…
Tron79,
You inspired me to fall down a space-travel rabbit hole on YouTube and during this, I found a bunch of great videos from Canadian astronaut (!!) Chris Hadfield. I found this video really really great (also, his TED Talk where he talks about going blind in space and his review of popular space movies — Apollo 13 is the most realistic, it turns out!).
I didn’t know the sun is basically a ball of explosions! Dad has made me (and all my friends) look through his sun telescope to look at the sun every time we’ve been over (and while growing up). I think the sun looks like a dirty rubber ball (I think that stuff which looks like hair and debris are solar flares?) and while I’m sure Dad probably mentioned something like this, I found this a revelation: the sun is a ball of explosions we can’t hear and would be deafening if space weren’t a vacuum!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93UCj1hzu8
But I especially thought this answer was beautiful:
Ten Bears,
Part 2 of 3: “There She Goes”
(Original 1990 version by the La’s; links below)
Maybe because the band released one album and then disappeared from public view, I didn’t know about the original version by the La’s in 1988 (single) or album version (1990) until a couple of years ago when I came across an Entertainment Weekly article by a music journalist who gushed over it, calling it the most perfect pop song ever made. Lofty praise.
There’s also the unresolved mystery (or mystique) whether the song’s lyrics are about a woman – or about heroin💉:
🎶“There she goes
There she goes again
Racing through my brain
And I just can’t contain
This feeling that remains.
There she goes
There she goes again
Pulsing through my veins
And I just can’t contain
This feeling that remains.”
***
There she goes
There she goes again
She calls my name
Pulls my train
No one else could heal my pain.” 🎵
Here’s a YouTube link to the 1990 album version (audio only), followed by a link to the rarely-aired, hard-to-find music video on “vimeo.”
“There She Goes”
The La’s (1990 – 12” vinyl album version)
2:34 long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW01a5bLH3c
———
Music video (on vimeo)
Continued in part 3…
Ten Bears,
Part 3 of 3 (continued from 9:35 pm)
I must have missed the release of the La’s original version of the song in 1990. I’ve since learned it was played over the opening scene of the pilot episode of “Gilmore Girls”* in October 2000; and has also appeared on several film soundtracks, including “The Parent Trap (1998); “Fever Pitch” (2005); “Girl Interrupted” (1999); and “So I Married an Ax Murderer” (1993).(Mike Myers is a huge fan of the song).
* “Gilmore Girls” pilot opening scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RRmtDOBt0I
I’ve never watched “Gilmore Girls,” though I’ve heard it was really good. It was created by Amy Sherman-Palladino – who also co-created “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel,” #1 on my “To Watch” list.
——-
End.
Ten Bears,
Oooh, thank-you! I’m going to look at those links. As soon as you referenced the title, “Kiss Me”, the Sixpence version of that song auto-played in my head. I had no idea it was a remake??
Ten Bears,
How didn’t I realize the Sixpence version was a remake? I’m a devout Gilmore Girls fan, I’ve watched each episode at least 10 times, that scene is from the pilot they shot in Unionville, ON (where I spent a week recovering from surgery so I was giddy that was in the real-life Stars Hallow!) so I’ve definitely seen that episode over and over, I’ve seen the 1998 Parent Trap and Girl Interrupted more than once, and I still didn’t make the connection with The La’s version.
Damn.
Thanks for those links!
Personally, I love and recommend both!
Adrianacandle,
Oh, to my knowledge “Kiss Me” by Sixpence None the Richer isn’t a remake. However, their version of “There She Goes” most definitely is a remake of the original by the La’s.
Adrianacandle,
Oh good. Based on your recommendation I can add “Gilmore Girls” to my To Watch List.
Yes, I’m sorry! I meant “There She Goes” — I mixed up my song titles!
And if you get a chance, tell me what you think if you are comfortable — for better or worse!
Ten Bears:
At the potential risk of repeating myself, I’ll advocate you read the first three books. They work as a smoothly-flowing (if, of course, truncated) story, and I believe anyone not a “book purist” will have a greater appreciation of how well D&D adapted GRRM’s beast of a tale.
However*, sometimes wonderful things were lost. In particular, there is an early scene with Jon and Arya (I can’t be arsed to find it at this late hour) which shows their common issues with their lots in feudal society. Using “arms” in the sense of “coat of arms” (or “sigil”), they converse that a bastard gets the weapons without the arms, and a lady gets the arms without the weapons. GRRM does a great job on the play of words with “arms” NOT meaning “weapons,” and demonstrates nicely how Jon and Arya commiserate as counterparts at Winterfell. Jon’s present of a sword to Arya, and Needle’s significance to her, thus count for even more in the books than they did in the show!
(Given the huge problems D&D encountered with producing the pilot, I really can’t blame them overmuch for missing that moment; perhaps that scene was indeed written and subsequently lost.)
*The use of this word does not necessarily mean that everything which comes after it is b–ls–t. However**, that is indeed usually the case.
** See Note 1, above. 😉
Ten Bears,
Ooh no, this has to be one of the rare cases where I vastly prefer the remake from the original.
The other instance being My Darkest Days’ (not Days’s, pfft!), version of “Come Undone” by Duran Duran. 😉
Ten Bears,
Wait, also Disturbed’s cover of “The Sound of Silence”, because HOT DAMN.
It just occurred to me that Sixpence did another classic, “Don’t Dream It’s Over.” I like both, but Crowded House wins that round.
Thinking of mentions upstream of protesters because of the lockdown and a school of thought that the Covid-19 virus is a scam or just a bad case of flu, I don’t think the majority of people in the UK are on the hoax bandwagon but we have had some people try to burn down 5G (or what they consider to be 5G) masts in part at least on the say-so of one of our best-known UK home grown conspiracy theorists – I’m not going to say his name but he was a footballer and a sports presenter back in the day before he went into woo-woo – another hint he’s the one who thinks the British royal family are shape-shifting lizards. On Saturday I saw some ‘freemen on the land’ for the first time on mainstream media (our version of ‘sovereign citizens’) out ‘protesting’ somewhere in London by the Thames. They were still arrested even if they ‘did not consent’ to being arrested! I’d heard of Ftlers (I sometimes look at the Quatloos site which mentions various and frauds) previously but have been fortunate enough not to meet any in real life but this was the first time I’d seen any on the news. It’s understandable people get worried in the lockdown and it must be awful for families with kids living in a high rise flat/apartment where the kids want to let off steam. I’m retired and don’t have a mortgage but for people who are paying a mortgage off a few months with no salary or wages coming in can have consequences.
I mentioned on the new thread about the actor who would have been in ‘Blood Moon’ if it had come to fruition there is an audio version of the book GoT on YouTube if anyone wanted to dip their toe into GRRM’s writing without spending a lot of money. The downside – the Prologue is not included. The style of narration as I said elsewhere doesn’t appeal to me but someone else might like it. It’s a freebie – I don’t know whether it’s legal or not but thus far there hasn’t been a copyright strike against it. https://youtu.be/XcA7hzCVt2Q
Thinking of music we like – a version of “Mon Histoire” (“On My Own”) from a then 16 year old French-Candadian Joanie Banville (clip is from circa 2009). https://youtu.be/P58yhobHf0w
Here in UK when we say ‘theatres’ most people would picture live actions plays on stage and would say cinema for watching a recorded movie on screen. I use that disclaimer only to ensure we are on the same page:)
Sadly I can see cinema’s closing on a large scale after this pandemic. Firstly they were becoming increasingly less popular due to online availability of streams, cost (ours as more than doubled in price in recent years) and other reasons. Then you have the safety aspect, here in Europe I feel we are ahead of the US in terms of progress in controlling the virus although we appear to be (rightly) more cautious with our reopening. So far where as Germany/Austria/Slovakia/Czech have began reopening and I am unaware of cinemas/theatres or other spaces people congregate opening. In the UK specifically (where I live), I am not expecting them to open before August/September at the earliest – we’ve been in a soft lockdown since March and next month plan to begin easing it with opening of some school years (majority will go back in September) and with some larger retail shops. In contrast Netflix subscriptions have gone through the roof and cinema movies have been made available on demand so I can see this becoming the new normal in future.
As for traditional theatres, these were already fairly niche and although hit hard economically they are unlikely to be trumped by new technology so I would expect these return towards the end of the year in many countries.
I just said similar to Jenny before seeing your response. I can see cinema/movie theatre going the same way as book stores i.e. still around but more a niche experience for those who want to see films in that sort of environment. It may allow them to increase costs and target a richer community whilst the majority download on demand at an increased cost.
Jon Snowed,
I’m from the UK as well, posting about it online has made me switch to ‘Theatre’ to avoid confusion. I thought using ‘Theatre’ rather than the US spelling ‘Theater’ might give me away lol.
They reckon July for us, but I will be surprised if it happens, I think we are reopening too soon anyway. Hairdressers etc being opened in July? I’m dubious.
The interesting thing about VOD, is some cinema chains throwing a fit at Universal for skipping their theatrical release. AMC (owners of Odeon I think?) and VUE have said that they won’t show any Universal movies in their cinema’s. So they are planning to skip James Bond in the UK? Doubt it, they will have to cave. Especially if they are financially struggling, which they are. An article about it… https://www.theguardian.com/film/2020/apr/29/odeon-bans-all-universal-pictures-films-as-studio-skips-cinema-releases
Jenny, I will be honest with myself that I still have the theater mass shootings in my mind when thinking about going to the movies here in the USA. I have gone with my family a couple of times since then, but it’s always there in my head wondering whether we take our lives in our hands when we show up to a place that is a “soft target” without guards. It’s a sad world, but I can’t help but have those thoughts. Now with COVID-19, I doubt I’ll be heading back to a theater any time soon even when they open. I’m very happy watching at home. On the other hand, I absolutely love live broadway theater. I live an hour and half away from NYC by plane, and my wife and I have gone on a number of weekend trips to see the latest broadway show. It really saddens me that broadway has to close. You are definitely packed in. I’ve sat in the middle of a row and had some tense moments to avoid having to go to the WC. (We don’t say WC in the USA, but since you were writing theater vs. theatre, I thought I would throw that in!)
Ah I missed the spelling of Theatre/Theater:) Yes I saw the articles on Universal, certainly going to be interesting how it plays out. I must admit I hadn’t seen any guidelines for cinemas (along with gyms/sporting crowds/night clubs/bars) and had assumed they would be pushed back until much later in the year. Even if they open I can see attendance being extremely low.
On the opening too soon I agree, will be interesting to see if a big spike in cases once retail reopens next month as UK population doesn’t seem to wear masks like many others. Either way I cannot see a big rush to go outside or attend cinemas until people feel more confidence regarding personal safety.
Jon Snowed,
“Here in UK when we say ‘theatres’ most people would picture live actions plays on stage and would say cinema for watching a recorded movie on screen. I use that disclaimer only to ensure we are on the same page:)”
So noted. From now on I’m going to try to remember to use “theatre” to mean a live show or play, and “cinema” to mean a movie theater. It makes sense to distinguish them that way.
I’m not sure why we (in the U.S.) ever merged “theater” so it could mean a venue for a live show or a movie.
Tron79,
Oh god. The mega mall a mile from my home is reopening this Thursday – along with its multiplex cinema. So much for flattening the f*cking curve.
Where’s the Mad King when you need him?
”Burn the Mall!”
[Just kidding of course. I am not promoting arson.]
I’m never going to be able to leave my Sky Cell, am I…
Jenny,
A few days ago (May 14) The Sun (UK) announced that New Mutants will be “in theaters” on August 28.
The poster is really cool. (Image link below.) Nice that Maisie Williams is front and center. However… there is no way I’m going to be in any theatre 🎭 or theater (cinema) 🎥 any time in the foreseeable future, and certainly not this year.
[Redundant Whinge Alert] F*ck! The release of this movie has been delayed since 2017! Why not just make it available on VOD (video on demand) NOW?
Hell, I’d gladly pay a surcharge to support cinemas until it’s safe for them to reopen.
Just tack on $5 or $10 to every VOD rental. I think people would gladly pay a little extra to ensure that cinemas will still be around when this sh*tshow is over.
What am I missing?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/NINTCHDBPICT000582913161.jpg?strip=all&w=648
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/11620659/maisie-williams-marvel-horror-the-new-mutants-august-release-after-major-delays/
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🤢
Tron79,
Oh yes, it is one more worry. Theatre’s in particular are very crammed, whereas cinema’s (at least over here) have upgraded to massive leather seats that are twice the size of the old style seats. Sitting far apart won’t be too difficult there, but they will have to limit audience sizes a lot.
I’m still not going yet. I happily watched Emma at home, i’d watch other movies that way too.
Jon Snowed,
I only noticed after I’d posted, I can’t train myself out of that spelling. Hopefully they take the time to assess the impact of reopening in different stages before moving on to the next. I wear a mask for food shopping since its indoors, but hardly anybody else does (it annoys me) but I don’t bother when I go for a walk, I just don’t go near anybody.
Ten bears, I don’t think that movie is ever coming out, it is cursed. Her next project (whatever it is) will probably see the light of day first. It’s very odd. I bet WB wish they had opened Wonder Woman on its original date last year.
My family and I feel a little bit the same here in the UK where we plan to reopen retail next month but we have the second highest amount of cases/deaths in the world still – despite a positive downward trend after 2 months in lockdown. Our feeling as a family is that we will continue as if we are in lockdown – order our shopping on-line, use masks if we venture out – and monitor what happens before easing our way out.
I am supposed to be on a work trip to India in July but cannot see that happening and neither would I want to take the risk right now but have to wait for government guidance to ensure company doesn’t lose out financially. Will be interesting to see how many retail workers actually go back to work and how many consumers go out to shop in a hurry.
Tron79,
Thought you’d get a chuckle out of this…
“Maisie Williams as hand sanitizers”
(link to follow)
Tron79,
link? (Not sure it’s working …)
marta on Twitter: “@Maisie_Williams as hand sanitizers; a thread https://t.co/U4CYXYRRR7” / Twitter
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Ten Bears,
https://mobile.twitter.com/qendryas/status/1240298594877440000
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(Last try for the “Maisie as Hand Sanitizer” link)
Edit: It’s not quite working. I guess you’ve got to click the twitter post & picture at the top of the page to load the whole thread.
Jenny,
”… Ten bears, I don’t think that movie [New Mutants] is ever coming out, it is cursed. Her next project (whatever it is) will probably see the light of day first.”
—————
• Maisie Williams’s next project is “Two Weeks to Live” a six-episode “action comedy series” co-starring Sian Clifford as her mother. Here’s a link to the trailer (I hope). It looks like a lot of fun.
https://metro.co.uk/video/two-weeks-live-trailer-2109736/
This series will be on Sky TV (UK) and the streaming service “NOW TV” sometime later this year. However, I don’t know if it will be available here in the U.S. 😡
• According to this post from BBC America about three weeks ago, Maisie Williams’s movie “The Owners” will be released in theaters and will also be available on demand. No release date has been set. It’s “predicted” to be sometime later this year.
However, I’m not sure this movie will be available in the U.S. either. 🤢
BBC America – Anglophenia
https://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2020/04/heading-to-vod-maisie-williams-is-set-to-star-in-the-owners
Heading to VOD: Maisie Williams is Set to Star in “The Owners”
“We all know Maisie Williams from Game of Thrones as Arya Stark. And, she had a standout performance in Doctor Who as Ashildr, starring in four episodes in 2015. We can also look for her in the feature film The Owners. The movie will premiere in theaters, but will also be available to watch via On Demand, reports ComingSoon.net.
Filming is complete on the 1990s-set thriller. The story is based on Belgian artist Hermann Huppen‘s comic book, revolving around childhood friends, Nathan (Ian Kenny) and Terry (Andrew Ellis), now 20. They find themselves broke and desperate, living in rural England.
Against their better judgment, they are talked into a robbing a house by a new friend who has just moved to town.
Williams is set to play Mary, girlfriend to Nathan. But, she’s no doting wallflower. She is actually the voice of reason in this ill-fated plan.
When the owners return unexpectedly, she is left to fight for her life.
Filming took place in Kent, England, not far outside of London, and was shot in a Victorian mansion. Julius Berg (The Crimson Rivers) was on-set to direct the ensemble cast.
The release date hasn’t been set yet, but at least we know it’s coming. The timing is predicted to be later this year.
Williams has also completed filming the X-Men TV series spinoff The New Mutants, but there’s no set premiere date for that either, just yet.
We love Maisie. What about you?
———
So….today a firm announced early progress on a vaccine.
It turns out that the man that was just appointed to be in charge of the USA’s vaccine effort is invested in this company and was on its board up to a few weeks ago. So…I suppose this one will speed toward approval then? No?
Perhaps they could have found a “standard” scientist without conflicts to lead this effort? The US has a big pool of great talent.
I’m hoping so. I think any progress on a genuine vaccine is good news. I share concerns about re-opening big communal spaces (like malls and movie theatres) because since covid isn’t gone, it’s not nearly gone, I’m afraid this is going to worsen conditions all over again.
And the more opportunity this virus is given to incubate, develop, and grow, I wonder if it’ll be harder to keep up with it and develop a vaccine that can overtake it.
It feels like containing a huge forest fire to a spot where it’s not killing as much… but surrounding the fire with dry trees.
(I apologize for the weird metaphor! There are probably way better ones!)
Adrianacandle,
Installing new draperies while the house is on fire.
That’s my cynical metaphor from my vantage point.
Oooh, that’s a good one.
hahhaaaa!
Regarding Natalie Dormer in Penny Dreadful. I’m so disgusted right now. I was enjoying Natalie Dormer’s performances. She plays many different characters in the show. They just had one scene of bad cop abusing a pre-teen that was worse for me than watching Sansa get raped. The idea of the show is that Natalie Dormer’s character whispers and tempts men to do horrible things, but it didn’t look like this cop needed tempting. I was enjoying Natalie’s dance scenes and a number of other things I could appreciate, but the show just went way too far for me with how it is portraying the cops and with the sexual abuse of the young girl. I shut off the show right then and cancelled my free Showtime trial. There were some other disgusting moments before this and plenty of dark themes, but I can’t see coming back from this scene. It ceases to be entertainment on any level for me. This happens in episode 4 which was the latest episode. Uggg… frustrating because I was enjoying watching Natalie in all of her different roles. Thanks for listening.. I didn’t’ know where else to vent about it.
Mango,
For me watching a performance with an audience is a markedly different experience from watching in my home. There is something communal about it that I really like. There is a special “fission” in a live performance and “energy” in the audience experience whether theatre or movie or other. It is hard to describe. I suppose in the same way that watching live sport is different from watching at home.
Totally agree. I grew up in a family that regulary attended theatre and concerts, and from a very young age was held spellbound by them. And while I don’t mind watching movies or even productions like National Theatre Live on the movie screen, I really love being part of that audience, Like you I hope that we do not lose that for the sake of people like me and for the people who perform.
Tron79,
I appreciate your thoughts on this because I think I’ll avoid this show now too. I also really like Natalie Dormer, I remember her as Anne Boleyn in The Tudors (I know, I know, The Tudors was not exactly an accurate portrayal of Henry VIII’s life…) and thought she was awesome in that role. I thought she was great as Cressida in Mockingjay and excellent as Margaery! I was considering checking out Penny Dreadful because of Natalie Dormer but yeah… based on your post… I don’t think it’s my thing :/
A fascinating look at a more recent epidemic was of Polio in the 30s through 60s and the race for a vaccination read the book Polio: An American Story Fascinating account of how the disease spread, the fight for a vaccine, and incidently how the March of Dimes fundraising let to our current drives such as the MD Telethon and online fund drives.
ash,
Thanks for this recommendation!
Yeah, the whole premise is disturbing since she’s tempting people to do horrible things. It also is disturbing for me because there is quite alot of Nazi/Jewish material in there. I was doing OK watching it, because I was enjoying seeing Natalie, and I was trying to take the story for what it was. It just went too far for me to be able to keep watching, even if it’s supposed to be dark. She was supposed to be tempting people to start race wars, which she did. But the cops (and this head cop in particular) didn’t seem to need tempting, and this was just too much for me. Anyway, it’s a shame, because it has some good actors.
Yeah, that sounds like it’d be too much for me as well so I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this.
Did you happen to watch the original series with Eva Green and Josh Hartnett?
Penny Dreadful: City of Angels takes place during a very dark time in American history, and offers a clear portrayal of what made that time and place difficult for many Americans to survive. As with the original Penny Dreadful, it’s not for the squeamish. (I watched The Silence of the Lambs upon theatrical release, and while it is a great movie, that material was too dark for me to use as entertainment back then.)
With City of Angels, I happen to love that period of history, and the faithful reproduction of Los Angeles from that time is a visual feast. Natalie Dormer’s playing multiple interconnected characters, every one of them intent on causing as much trouble as possible, made for a great surprise and additional treat.
The idea of the show is that Natalie Dormer’s character whispers and tempts men to do horrible things, but it didn’t look like this cop needed tempting.
That’s part of the premise, yes, but it asks the old question: does man really need a devil to tempt him to do horrible deeds, or is he more than capable of doing evil all by himself?
Adrianacandle,
Here’s Natalie Dormer as Irene Adler with Jonny Lee Miller as Sherlock Holmes in “Elementary” – if you haven’t seen this already. It’s an enjoyable five minute scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd2_w3A8oE
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No I didn’t see the original one. I only watched this one because of Natalie’s game of thrones tie in. I often try out other shows that GOT actors appear in.
Well, some of these people didn’t need any tempting. I guess it became a discussion in my own head about what I considered entertainment. I am not the squeamish type. The opening scene is pretty gruesome and I was able to take that part. But I also had no desire to watch The Silence of the Lambs. I enjoy a good mystery and an examination of why people hate each other. It just got to be too much for me with the way the cops were portrayed and the idea that the main Sargent guy would enjoy abusing the 12 or 13 year old girl. I can see exploring the horror of racism and trying to figure out why it happens and what we can do to prevent it. Even if what the show portrayed about cops was true, I couldn’t stomach watching it, and I’m not normally squeamish. I made it through Theon’s torture scenes (for example), even though I choose to speed those scenes up upon rewatch, because I got the point already. I guess that’s my point. They didn’t need to pile it on.
Also, the Nazi theme is tough for me. I visited the actual concentration camps last summer, so I’ve seen the horror up close, and just when you thought you’ve seen it all, you see something else that illustrates the cruelty even more. I guess at some point, I got their point in Penny Dreadful, and it was enough already, and I needed something else to entertain me. I can highly recommend The Mandalorian with Pedro Pascal. That was entertaining to me, and the art work sketches were fantastic.
I guess it became a discussion in my own head about what I considered entertainment.
That’s always a valid dialog to have. Please don’t spend your time on ‘entertainment’ material which you don’t find entertaining!
My own problem with the Nazi subplot, at least so far, is they are presented as cartoonishly over-the-top, stupidly evil Hollywood Bad Guys. They bribe an American government official who was already doing everything they wanted, and then tell him all about their plot to take over America (!). (There is no known historical evidence of such Nazi plotting in 1938.) It’s a jarring counterpoint to the careful, sensitive treatment of minority issues in the blatantly racist America of that time.
ash,
Oh! Performers are such a special group of persons – you have a special gift and role. I hope the live arts survive and thrive.
Correction: In my original post, I meant “frisson”. But I have enjoyed several performances that took my mind and soul close to “fission” also.
Pigeon,
“Did you happen to watch the original series with Eva Green and Josh Hartnett?”
I tried to watch it but a combination of not really being a fan of the horror genre and finding Vanessa’s “English” accent somewhat irritating didn’t endear the show to me. I’ve said before I hated the séance sequence so didn’t bother after that.
Attractive ladies have to earn a crust and Natalie Dormer hasn’t had many blockbusters with any film she’s made so perhaps the Penny Dreadful reboot offered her a chance to keep herself in the public eye and earn a reasonable living. It’s hard to know how much an actor/actress can pick and choose projects.
Try this …
Amira Willighagen Oct. 2013 on Holland’s Got Talent
(She’s 9 years old)
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With English subtitles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDqTBlKU4CE
This is one of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen.
“Attractive ladies have to earn a crust…”
Dame Maggie Smith once put it bluntly, which I’ll paraphrase because I can’t find her actual quote: As an actor, you take every part you’re offered because you never know if you’ll ever get another one.
Tensor the Mage, Still Loving the Ending,
Yes, Tensor.
Early on in her career Maggie Smith did a turn as something like the girl who span the wheel in Wheel of Fortune. That’s one reason I get fed up with people who belittle the Duchess of Sussex because she was once in a game show – that doesn’t automatically make her a bad person.
I would’ve loved a new season of GoT to obsess over/occupy my time during “shelter in place.” Boredom is dark and full of terrors – and I find myself reaching for a goblet of wine as often as Cersei nowadays!
For my tastes, I didn’t think Disturbed’s version was an upgrade over the original by Simon and Garfunkel.
However, let me thank you for recommending Disturbed. I’d never heard of them before
. I listened to Disturbed’s cover of Genesis’s “Land of Confusion” and thought it was phenomenal.
Thanks again.
If season 7 and 8 are viewed in one go (not one day!), it’s almost like watching a new season. The complexity of Dany’s “meltdon” was too much to take in alongside everything else that happens in 8. You need Season 7 (especially knowing how she will end up) to get a true insight into her characters mindset.
SPOILER: I found after watching it all again that she didn’t actually go mad, but felt she had no choice but to become what she had fought so hard to avoid. There are several key scenes that simply pass you by first time. Like when she says to Jon, “Let it be fear” (she is basically stating her intention to level King’s Landing, coldly and calmly). She is weeping whilst looking over the city through frustration–as she had originally intended to simply take out the Red Keep, until Tyrion talked her out of it. Tyrion who also convinced her to trust Jon, Varys, Sansa and Cersei. Whose decisions had been catastrophic for Dany ever since he joined her. And of course, Tyrion’s bells ring out at that very moment!
It’s clear she is highly suspicious of Sansa, and most likely fears that Sansa would eventually either convince Jon or his heir to take back the throne. Dany saw it as a simple choice: become a tyrant, concede the throne to Jon or wait for a terrible war against the North (which she didn’t want as she loved Jon).
In the throne room scene I initially thought that Emelia was acting badly, out-of-character, like a naive child, but now realise that’s how she was meant to appear. That was as Dany was shaken and mortified by her actions (this is the same woman who locked away two of her children for killing a child) and actually naivley hoped Jon would still marry her and she could rule as a good queen. If only she hadn’t trusted Tyrion–now I understand why Tywin wanted him at the wall so badly! It’s all very sad and tragic, really.
I do feel the NK story was left barebones so that it could be kept back for the origin story we’re now never going to see! That is very frustrating! I think HBO should have either committed to or abandoned this before D&D put pen to paper for season 8.
Anyway, those are my thoughts after seeing it again. I do feel the criticisms are very unfair–it seems as complex and well-written as any other TV drama. The dialogue is a little clumsy at times, but considering how much else they had to do (and how tired they must have been from writing, filming and promoting this show for so long) it’s totally understandable. Most long running TV shows suffer from tired dialogue towards the end. I think the actual conclusion to Dany’s arc is very strong. Yeah the NK and Bran were iffy, but that is probably the studios fault rather than anyone involved GoT’s.
Richard,
Excellent comment, Richard. (As it was the 777th comment on this thread, can we say you had help from The Seven?)
I found after watching it all again that she didn’t actually go mad, but felt she had no choice but to become what she had fought so hard to avoid.
I agree completely. She simply did what she said she would do all along: burn cities if they didn’t submit to her, and break the wheel on Westeros. It just happened to be that the free people of King’s Landing didn’t welcome her as the slaves of Astapor and Meereen had, so it was King’s Landing she burnt to the ground. She broke the wheel, too: no Great House of Westeros would ever place anyone on the Iron Throne again: she would rule all Seven Kingdoms as an absolute tyrant.
There are several key scenes that simply pass you by first time.
In the throne room on Dragonstone, Tyron asks her what would make her different from all other tyrants. She doesn’t answer, because she has no answer. She’ll be the same as all other tyrants, only supported in her absolute tyranny by dragon(s) and armies who are fanatically loyal to her.
She is weeping whilst looking over the city through frustration–as she had originally intended to simply take out the Red Keep, until Tyrion talked her out of it. Tyrion who also convinced her to trust Jon, Varys, Sansa and Cersei. Whose decisions had been catastrophic for Dany ever since he joined her. And of course, Tyrion’s bells ring out at that very moment!
Those are all great points, and I hadn’t connected the bells ringing as the moment which pushes her into her fiery decision, but you are right. She hears the bells, looks over at Tyrion, and then launches Drogon toward the Red Keep — but attacks the city instead.
It’s clear she is highly suspicious of Sansa, and most likely fears that Sansa would eventually either convince Jon or his heir to take back the throne.
If anyone has spent years learning how to scheme behind the back of an evil blonde queen, that character is Sansa. Dany has every reason to suspect Sansa of treachery.
If only she hadn’t trusted Tyrion–now I understand why Tywin wanted him at the wall so badly!
Tywin wanted Tyrion banished because Tywin hated him and couldn’t stand thinking of Tyrion as heir to Casterly Rock. But it is amazing how many of the sympathetic characters, whom we in the audience wanted to see succeed, actually contributed to the destruction of King’s Landing:
— The Honorable Lord Eddard Stark, Hand of the King, prevented King Robert’s minions from assasinating Dany. Ned objected it was cowardly to kill a young girl with paid assassins. But Robert’s plan, had it succeeded, would have prevented the burning of King’s Landing.
— Jorah. Jorah, Jorah, Jorah. You were wrong to sell men into slavery on Westeros, and you were wrong about Dany as well.
— Varys, supposedly cynical spymaster, fell for Dany’s charms and didn’t understand until it was too late how much danger she posed.
— In fact, exactly none of the men who prided themselves on being worldly and wise saw her for what she was. However…
Sansa quickly saw the danger Dany represented, and skillfully did exactly the right thing to stop her. Sansa thus saved the North from Dany’s tyranny, and earned her rightful place as Queen In The North.
Again, great comment, and thank you for it!
Well said. I mostly agree. Game of Thrones was an exhilarating and thought-provoking part of my life for the past decade – and not having it to look forward to and discuss with friends has left a void that so far nothing has come close to filling – and I miss it especially now dealing with this pandemic. But, I have to say I am surprised that the author of this artical – who is obviously a fan of the show – brushed over the absolute failure that was the last season. Season 8 left out everything that made the first 7 seasons so great! I am still dissappointed beyond words. I don’t want to imply that Game of Thrones isn’t still one of the greatest series ever made. I just wish that HBO had spent the time and money to get new writers and redo the entire final season! Even if we had to wait for it…it would have been satisfying to have an ending worthy of the entire series…instead of being left confused and dissappointed.