Exciting guest news for con-goers today! For the first time, Game of Thrones star Iain Glen (Ser Jorah Mormont) will appear at Con of Thrones, the premier convention for fans of Game of Thrones, A Song of Ice and Fire, and the epic worlds of fantasy author George R. R. Martin. Glen will appear on panels and programming at Con of Thrones 2020 on Saturday, July 18 and Sunday, July 19, as well as participate in autograph and photograph experiences with fans.
Glen won acclaim for his role as Ser Jorah Mormont, a member of Daenerys Targaryen’s Queensguard, in all eight seasons of Game of Thrones. Fans can expect several entertaining and informative sessions with Glen, as well as individualized meet-and-greets. Tickets are available for purchase now at conofthrones.net/register.
Autograph and photograph experiences with Glen are available for purchase now. Autographs are $85 and photographs are $100. Autograph and photograph experiences are also available with Game of Thrones actor Anton Lesser (Qyburn) and Sam Coleman (Young Hodor). Con of Thrones will take place in Orlando, Florida, at the Orange County Convention Center July 17–19, 2020.
Con of Thrones will host in-depth discussions about both the television and book series, Special Guest Spotlight interviews, live recordings of fan-favorite podcasts, and much more. Previous guests include Game of Thrones stars Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister), Joe Dempsie (Gendry), Jerome Flynn (Bronn), Hannah Murray (Gilly), Iwan Rheon (Ramsay Bolton), Miltos Yerolemou (Syrio Forel), Sibel Kekilli (Shae), Kate Dickie (Lysa Arryn), Esmé Bianco (Ros), Kerry Ingram (Shireen Baratheon), Aimee Richardson (Myrcella Baratheon), and Emmy Award-winning Sound Designer Paula Fairfield.
Con of Thrones is produced by Mischief Management. Watchers on the Wall is proud to serve as the official programming partner for Con of Thrones. Additional special guests and additional details will be announced at a later date.
For more information and to purchase tickets, please visit conofthrones.net or visit Facebook: www.facebook.com/conofthrones, Twitter: @conofthrones or Instagram: @conofthrones.
“Yet here I stand!”
Needless to say, this is HUGE news.
I would love to be there. He could just read the phone book and it would be too much ❤️
MotherofWolves,
“And yet, here I stand.”
Ser Jorah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VU0oKnWUTk
————
Oh, for fuck’s sake.
WHY CAN’T I BE RICH AND RETIRED?
Jorahhhhhhhhhh!
***longing sigh*** 😍
What I’d give to have Ser Jorah Mormont recite poetry to me like this…
S5 Jorah & Tyrion sail through Old Valyria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbWpoTqO2y4
———
What I’d give to have Ser Jorah Mormont.
Pigeon,
🤣
Pigeon,
Random Thoughts
• I was going to comment on Iain Glen’s mellifluous voice. First, I wanted to be sure “mellifluous” is the right word. It certainly is:
mellifluous (adjective): sweetly or smoothly flowing; sweet-sounding: a mellifluous voice; mellifluous tones. flowing with honey; sweetened with or as if with honey.
• Were Syrio Forel and Jorah Mormont the only two GoT characters who died a truly heroic death, i.e., sacrificing themselves so that the person they were protecting could live? I’m trying to remember if there was anyone else… Maybe Yoren, though I’m not sure he chose to fight the Gold Cloaks/Lannister posse instead of surrendering so that any of his NW recruits could escape. Barristan? Beric? Hodor?
• Iain Glen’s appearance at Con of Thrones is a game-changer. How can I justify not attending? My only question – cynic that I am – is whether he’s locked in. Last year, didn’t one of the announced guests cancel at the last minute? (Carice van Houten?)
• Con of Thrones guests usually charge for autographed photos or snapshots with fans, I think. I wonder if Iain Glen will offer voice recordings or short videos with fans? Imagine a video or voice recording of Iain Glen as Jorah reciting his confession to Dany (upon revealing his greyscale) – something like: “I love you. I’ve always loved you.”
I’d be happy with “Here I stand.”
• Not whinging. I just wish Jorah got to say something with his dying breath instead of just fading away. Same with Beric. (In Beric’s case, the original script called for him to look at Arya and say “Live…” as he expired; for whatever reason they cut that from the as-filmed scene.)
Wow that’s quite the coup!
I asked this on an earlier Con article but what is the plan with these, will this be the last given the show has now finished or will they continue whilst there is still decent demand?
Not sure my previous comment went through so trying again:
————————————
Wow that’s quite the coup!
I asked this on an earlier Con article but what is the plan with these, will this be the last given the show has now finished or will they continue whilst there is still decent demand?
Ten Bears,
I think it would’ve been a great touch if the scene of Jorah’s last words (other than the gurgling sounds) to Dany played out like:
Dany cradles the mortally wounded Jorah in her arms, trying to comfort him in his last, dying breaths as he is able to muster the strength to say his last, parting words to his Khaleesi before succumbing to his wounds,…
“Khaleesi, whatever you do, don’t burn King’s Landing down to the ground!……bleh!”
Wow! Quite the coup for the con!
I mean no offence to the likes of Sam Coleman, who was excellent as “Young Hodor”, but Iain Glenn is in another category altogether. He’s a real A-list star, an accomplished and awarded actor with a high-profile CV spanning decades. He’s not just “Ser Jorah”, he’s so much more.
I envy eveyone who will have a chance to listen to his gravelly dulcet tones, his thoughts and ideas, learn about his craft at Con of Thrones this year.
Also, I’m under the impression he’s a rather lovely person, so Con of Thrones employees/volunteers are in for a treat. – Once upon a time, I worked for a film festival, hosting the foreign guests, and some (usually mid-grade “stars”) were total dicks, treating the festival liaison officer like a servant, while others (budding talent no-names very excited just to be there, and bigger names, who didn’t have to prove anything) were engaged, interested in what our festival wanted to show them of local culture/scenery, them getting into the spirit of this tiny film festival in a faraway country. Iain Glenn definitely seems to fall into the latter category.
Enjoy!
Oh, and please could someone write more “Valyrian poetry” for him to recite!
I think it was very beautiful, poignant and _realistic_ that Ser Jorah didn’t have any grand last words. How many dying people, chocking, drowing in their own blood because a weapon has penetrated their lungs, have time for grand, meaningful speeches? Jorah seemed to be saying something, I couldn’t quite hear it, make it out amongst all the battle noises and music.
I first watched the episode without subtitles (I often find them distracting from the acting). The second time, I watched with subtitles (in my language), I got Jorah’s last words, “Sattuu.” in the subtitles, and with that knowledge, you’re able to pick out Jorah’s last words: “It hurts.” No wonder Dany was so distraught. Her Bear Knight was hurting, dying, admitted his vulnerability to her just as he died.
So it all fed into the narrative, the greater story. That Dany lost her most loyal supporter, her staunchest defender. Missandei and Grey Worm have their own thing, Jon – her competitor for the Iron Throne – is hailed as a hero, also his sisters. Even Jaime the Kingslayer is welcomed, commended, has a good time drinking and joking with Brienne, Pod and her Hand, his brother, Tyrion.
Nobody hails and adores Dany, and she has built her identity on being an adored and celebrated, almost worshipped, a liberator. What does she do when she’s not. When the stubborn, stupid people don’t understand her greatness and her “liberation”?
Liberation by fire.
In the books, one of Dany’s catchphrases is “If I look back, I’m lost.” Worked fairly beningly when she was just trying to hold herself together after traumatic experiences. Works far worse, even sinister, when she has the dragons and wealth and power. It’s beginning to sound like ‘have no regrets’ and ‘don’t learn from past mistakes’.
I think GoT and especially the unfinished ASoIaF book series are about power. How, why, what? Also about revenge – v bad according to the author. Most fans are far more vengeful and bloodthirsty than the author. Glorify revenge, like the TV show did. Ugh.
At the feast (at least), Dany did get recognition — she received that toast from Tormund and cheers from the room but I think Arya got the biggest applause when Dany toasted her in turn. Jon was informally celebrated — but by his drunk wildling buds, who aren’t really Westerosi.
Still, I agree with your general point. It’s true, Dany was no longer the most celebrated, hailed one in the room in 8×04. And felt the sting of that, as she told Jon afterward (that she used to be celebrated by the people the way the wildlings hyped up Jon but never in Westeros). In contrast, Westeros wasn’t crying out for her to come save them, they feared her instead. She did not get the welcome she anticipated. She wasn’t embraced by the people, which I think was a huge blow to her.
But I wonder, if she had given it time and let the people come to know her, if she would have succeeded in getting the people’s love (but on that point, Jon didn’t really have the Westeros’s love either. He’s beloved by the wildlings, but the North is mad at him every Tuesday, they nearly overthrew him for Sansa, the south doesn’t know Jon from Adam and if they do, it’s as Ned Stark’s bastard son, etc. etc. etc.) — but I see what they were trying to do and I think it’s much like you said: “she has built her identity on being an adored and celebrated, almost worshipped, a liberator. What does she do when she’s not.”
I get that Jorah “had to” die to add yet another loss to hasten Dany’s sense of estrangement and isolation.
I didn’t realize Jorah said anything at all as he died. (I didn’t hear him say “It hurts” or see those words in the closed captioning.)
I’m not really complaining: Jorah got the perfect death he always dreamed of: defending his Khaleesi.* And I think he was conscious long enough to see that the AotD had been vanquished.
* I remember in S5 or S6? when he sold himself back into servitude just so he could fight and die
in her presence in the fighting pits. Now that’s what I call dedication! I’m glad Jorah got to go out as a hero, when a “typical” early-season GoT-type death would have had him die of greyscale or take his own life.
Fighting and dying to save the life of the woman he loved: quite romantic. (Since he’d “cheated death” I figured he was living on borrowed time anyway.)
Adrianacandle,
”…. She did not get the welcome she anticipated. She wasn’t embraced by the people, which I think was a huge blow to her.“
Jon’s fault. He didn’t disclose that he’d bent the knee and given up the North’s sovereignty of his own volition after Dany had already committed to help the North defeat the WWs with no strings attached. As a result, instead of King Jon and Queen Daenerys riding in together as “equals” and allies, Jon foisted on his people a “Southern ruler” he knew they wouldn’t readily accept. Plus, whether by silence or omission, Jon made it sound like he gave up his crown to help his people – when that wasn’t true.
As many have argued before, nothing would’ve prevented Jon from “bending the knee” after alerting the Northern Lords of his intentions, at least listening to their opinions, and trying to convince them of the propriety of his decision. (One would think he would’ve learned the value of a good advance PR campaign after the unfortunate reaction to his Wildling Resettlement Program.)
Besides, I thought Dany had enough political capital built up from her valiant rescue of the marooned wight hunters at the Frozen Lake. I’m not sure why Tormund didn’t laud Dany during his drunken speech about Jon riding a dragon. She saved his behind.
Dany should have been received warmly as a benevolent ally, not as an unwanted monarch. Jon didn’t give up his crown to secure her help: he did that spontaneously and precipitously, for no good reason.
Worst of all, Jon was the cause of the creation and perpetuation of a false narrative that Dany had extracted the North’s fealty as a condition of her assistance. No wonder the North didn’t “see her for what she really is [was]” as Jon had assured her on board the ship.
End Jon-Bashing. For now.
Ten Bears,
Well, it was a dumb decision to bend the knee like that, no arguments there.
But if Jon disclosed why he did it and what led him to do it, that could have led to more trouble and more hostility. Bending the knee, per the script direction, because he realized he loved her… I doubt that’d soothe any tensions at all or win Dany any approval. The North was already pissed at Jon for bending the knee and finding out he did it partially because of things of a personal nature… Well, Sansa realized why Jon bent the knee and she wasn’t too happy with Jon or Dany for it.
But I don’t even think that’s why Jon didn’t tell the Northern lords how it happened. It feels like the writers forgot what was actually said in that 7×06 scene. In 8×02, Dany declares she came North only because of her love for Jon and that’s not why Dany came at all. Dany came because she realized the threat was actually real (“You have to see it to know. Now I know.”) and because the Night King killed her dragon.
It felt like the writers forgot what was exactly said in that 7×06 scene.
That would have been nice but I think it was kind of for plot purposes of making Dany feel like she’ll never have in Westeros what she had in Essos.
But also, if the wight hunt rescue were revealed, it’d be revealed why they went on the wight hunt in the first place (Dany wasn’t ready to commit her forces to a threat she’s never seen until a truce could be secured with Cersei) and what that wight hunt resulted in (the Night King burning a hole in the Wall).
Dany should have been received warmly as a benevolent ally, not as an unwanted monarch. Jon didn’t give up his crown to secure her help: he did that spontaneously and precipitously, for no good reason.
Again, I think Jon bending the knee was a dumb, dumb decision — especially without consulting anyone first — and I think it was intended to stir up dramatic conflict. If Dany had arrived as an ally, I think she would have been better received. Not… warmly… I doubt the North is ever going to receive a Targaryen warmly… but better. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be wary of Daenerys, they don’t know her and she has an unsavory reputation.
Again, to reiterate, I found that bit of writing really weird, for the same reason I found Dany’s speech to Sansa really weird. It felt like the writers didn’t remember what occurred in that 7×06 scene. That Dany was no longer extracting Jon’s fealty as a condition of her help (she now had her own reasons to fight the Night King) and Dany didn’t come to the North just because of her feelings for Jon, as she told Sansa in 8×02.
Jon could have done a lot better and he’s always sucked at PR (the “I shot Mance through the heart” situation Tormund had to quickly get Jon out of by revealing it was a mercy kill) — but Dany could have also done a bit better too. She could have been willing to give it time for the people to warm up to her, to let the North see her who she really is.
What’s odd is that Dany was willing to grant Yara the independence of the Iron Islands but she would hear nothing of it when Sansa wanted the same thing for the North. When Jon bent the knee to her and said the North would come to see her for who she is, Dany says, “I hope I deserve it,” but she came to the North, it seemed like she expected instant approval — even though she knows it takes time.
Those were some of the frustrating bits I found with this and it seems like, as with Jorah’s death, it was to really speed Dany to a place of going berserk.
Ten Bears,
Correction!
I forgot to blockquote one of your quotes in my post! It should read like this:
“[…]what that wight hunt resulted in (the Night King burning a hole in the Wall).
Again, I think Jon bending the knee was a dumb, dumb decision — especially without consulting anyone first[…]”
Adrianacandle,
(cont. from 5:37 pm comment above – before reading your reply to it…) i
• I also thought it was bad enough that in S8e4 Arya behaved completely out of character in bashing Dany – without ever meeting her for all we could tell. It was SO unlike egalitarian Arya Stark to suddenly become xenophobic and insist: “we don’t trust your queen” and “I’ll never know her. She’s not one of us.”
(S8e4, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran in Godswood)
Jon: “You understand we’d all be dead if not for her. We’d be corpses marching down to King’s Landing.”
Sansa: “Arya’s the one that killed the Night King.”
Jon: “Her men gave their lives defending Winterfell–“
Sansa: “And we will never forget them. That doesn’t mean that I want to kneel to someone who–“
Jon: “I swore myself and the North to her cause.”
(Arya? Sansa?): “I respect that.”
Jon: “You respect it? We needed her. We needed her army, her dragons.”
Sansa: “You did the right thing.”
OOC Arya: “And we’re doing the right thing telling you we don’t trust your queen.”
Jon: “You don’t know her yet.”
OOC Arya: “I’ll never know her. She’s not one of us.” 😡👸🏻
Jon: “If you only trust the people you grew up with, you won’t make many allies.”
OOC Arya: “That’s all right. I don’t need many allies.”
Jon: “Arya -“
———-
• Why didn’t Jon push back by invoking the memory of their father – like he did in S6e10 when xenophobic factions of his army were squabbling after Battle of the Bastards – and remind his sisters that their father said “We find our true friends on the battlefield”?
S6e10 (Jon, Sansa, Northern Lords et al. in Great Hall of WF)
***
Lord Royce: “You can’t expect the Knights of the Vale to side with wildling invaders.”
Tormund: “We didn’t invade. We were invited.”
Lord Royce: “Not by me.”
Jon: “The Free Folk, the Northerners, and the Knights of the Vale fought bravely, fought together, and we won. My father used to say we find our true friends on the battlefield.”
————-
Adrianacandle,
” Bending the knee, per the script direction, because he realized he loved her… “
Is that what the script said? I did not know that. So Jon frittered away the North’s independence not out of concern for his people’s best interests but because of a twinge in his loins? Ugh.
”But I don’t even think that’s why Jon didn’t tell the Northern lords how it happened. It feels like the writers forgot what was actually said in that 7×06 scene. In 8×02, Dany declares she came North only because of her love for Jon and that’s not why Dany came at all. Dany came because she realized the threat was actually real (“You have to see it to know. Now I know.”) and because the Night King killed her dragon.”
Right you are! It sure did seem like the writers “kind of forgot” what Dany said and what Jon said in S7e6. That’s why I blamed Jon for allowing a false narrative to take hold – to Dany’s detriment.
I’ll have to go back and rewatch Jon’s early S8 scenes with Lyanna Mormont, Sam, and others. If I recall correctly, Jon sure made it sound like he had given up his crown and pledged the North to Queen Daenerys in order to secure her help. As a result, Dany arrived to an audience of suspicious, antagonistic locals instead of grateful, welcoming people.
If Jon was so sure his people would accept her once they got to know her or see for themselves who she was – why did he allow the false narrative to take hold? And why didn’t he provide favorable (and accurate) PR in advance and upon her arrival? I don’t get it. Maybe it simply is, as you said, that the writers kind of forgot how the S7 stateroom scene played out between Jon and Dany.
Either way, she got a bum rap. Gee, thanks Jon. 🤨
Ten Bears,
Probably for the same reason we had those Missed Conversations you referenced in the other threat — it’s another missed thing. Sansa and (of all people) Arya aren’t even convinced to give Dany a chance when Jon reminds them both that they’d be dead meat without that same Dany. And then Arya, who I agree is acting wildly OOC in this scene, won’t even try to get to know Dany. Arya. This might be cynical of me but I don’t think the writers even wanted to have the Stark sisters contemplate reconsidering their opinion.
If there had been more episodes though, maybe?
But Arya wasn’t even “Starks Only” before and after this scene. It was only this scene. She seemed fine to socialize with non-Starks before, spending her last moments with Sandor, Gendry, and Beric. She leaves Winterfell without the intention to return and she’s riding with a non-Stark, Sandor. Sandor convinces Arya to give up the goal that’s been keeping her alive, revenge, and then Arya goes to try to save a bunch of non-Starks.
I’m not trying to needlessly bash the show but this is where I think the writing had problems. Arya’s reason for not even giving Dany a chance seemed… odd.
Ten Bears,
I don’t think that was the only reason but I think personal feelings were a big part of the reason, ala Robb and Talisa. Per the dialogue, it seems Jon also felt Dany was the best queen to unite under (telling Dany that the North would see her for who she is, telling Sansa that she’d be a good queen for them all) but love seems to have pushed him into this decision.
From the scripts, right before he bends the knee:
At the same time, it feels like the writers were treating this like this narrative actually happened — Dany doesn’t even look slightly bothered by Jon’s speech and she never brings it up with Jon — as if that did happen. Which is bizarre because we saw that the scene didn’t go the way it was presented in 8×01 and 8×02 and this is one of the reasons I think season 8’s writing was pretty sloppy.
As I said before, I don’t think there was any way Dany was going to arrive in a grateful, welcoming North. No matter what Jon said. In living memory, the North has a bad history with Targaryens, they don’t want another southern ruler (much less a Targaryen — if they had ever found out Jon was a Targaryen and believed it — yikes), and Dany herself doesn’t have the most benevolent reputation following her. You referenced Jon knew they wouldn’t readily accept a southern ruler and you’re right, which is a big part of why his decision to bend the knee unconsulted is dumb.
And the meeting with the Northern lords did not occur where Jon made that speech did not occur until after Dany arrived to a very wary people.
As I said above, Jon could have done better and he sucks at PR. He nearly got killed by the Hardhome wildlings over badly phrasing Mance’s death. He failed to sell the “we need the wildlings on our side” to his Watch brothers. He failed to convince most of the Northern houses to help him and Sansa fight Ramsay. He announces to a room of lords who decidedly don’t like Targaryens that he changed his mind, he’s going to go to Dragonstone to meet Daenerys Targaryen after all, final decision — and he announces it to a completely unsuspecting Sansa who thinks he’s going to stay in Winterfell because that’s what he agreed last they spoke. Jon’s never done PR. And I don’t think the writers were going to give him that skill in season 8.
While Jon could have done better, Dany could have done better herself, as I said in the above post. She could have given it time, allowed them to come to know her. Demonstrated that she is willing to be a bit flexible. Her bum wrap wasn’t entirely Jon’s fault, she had a not-so-nice reputation following her around (due to her own deed and, unfairly, because she’s the daughter of the Mad King).
As for the false narrative, I don’t think that’s the core reason as to why the Northern lords disliked Dany. I doubt that helped at all but it was never mentioned by the Northern lords or even Sansa as to why they disliked Dany. They were pissed at Jon over his bending the knee, absolutely, but their opinions of Dany were pre-formed, primarily because she’s a Targaryen, the daughter of the Mad Queen. And when Sansa sussed out why Jon bent the knee to Dany, she thought Dany seduced Jon into giving up his crown (“men do stupid things for love”) — until Dany came up with the “I came because I love Jon” story. So even if the writers had Jon remember why he bent the knee in 7×06, I don’t think it would have gone over well there either.
And.. I think that’s the narrative the writers were going with at the time, having forgotten what Jon and Dany actually said in that 7×06 conversation.
Ten Bears,
Another correction X_X
*And the meeting with the Northern lords where Jon made that speech did not occur until after Dany arrived to a very wary people.
I’m still on synthetic opiates! That’s my excuse! I fear there are way more typos in my response so if something doesn’t sound sensical… I’m on synthetic opiates!!! (And let me know if something doesn’t make sense, both drugged and non-drugged me always want to know… I hope this made sense too… why isn’t there a plural for me? It looks like “mes”).
Right?! 😄
Adrianacandle,
”We already have Arya being all “Starks Only”, which I also feel is wildly out of character because Arya has never been that way before…
***
But Arya wasn’t even “Starks Only” before and after this scene. It was only this scene. She seemed fine to socialize with non-Starks before, spending her last moments with Sandor, Gendry, and Beric….
***
Probably for the same reason we had those Missed Conversations you referenced in the other threat — it’s another missed thing. Sansa and (of all people) Arya aren’t even convinced to give Dany a chance when Jon reminds them both that they’d be dead meat without that same Dany. And then Arya, who I agree is acting wildly OOC in this scene, won’t even try to get to know Dany. Arya. This might be cynical of me but I don’t think the writers even wanted to have the Stark sisters contemplate reconsidering their opinion.
***
I’m not trying to needlessly bash the show but this is where I think the writing had problems. Arya’s reason for not trusting Dany seemed… odd.”
—————
Nor am I needlessly bashing the show. Still, so many of the factors causing Dany to feel unloved, estranged and unappreciated seemed to be forced or contrived – perhaps because all of these factors had to arise, coalesce and boil over in the course of a couple of episodes.
As for Arya acting completely out of character and missed conversations….
I thought something was amiss when Jon & Arya’s long-awaited reunion got undermined (in my view) by Arya’s declaration to Jon that Sansa “is the smartest person I’ve ever met.”
I thought to myself: “Where did that come from?” Family solidarity, yes. Sansa became a staunch proponent of Stark unity. However, what was it that persuaded Arya that Sansa had developed into an intellectual powerhouse? I don’t recall any such scenes.
Were we supposed to assume that Arya drank the Sansa “I hate Jon’s girlfriend” Kool-Aid? Or that Arya simply adopted Sansa’s anti-Dany attitude because Sansa’s so smart she must know best?
Frankly, that unjustified “not one of us” prejudice not only contradicted Ned’s philosophy, but reminded me more of Cersei’s attitude (conveyed to Joffrey in S1): “Anyone who isn’t us is the enemy.”
I don’t know. It just felt bizarre that Arya would automatically reject and mistrust someone without even trying to get to know her. (Yeah, yeah, people can say she’d “changed” – but the “core” Arya was the same: The girl who made a loyal, steadfast friend out of the bully who had knocked her down and threatened to stomp her to death; the young woman who refused to assassinate an actress, putting her own life in peril, because after meeting the actress she seemed to be a good person; the lone traveler who shared a friendly meal with Lannister soldiers, one of whom said he’d been taught something that Arya’s experiences had taught her: “be kind to strangers and they’ll be kind to you.”)
Like the wonky Sansa vs. Arya S7 LF/WF plot, I wish the show hadn’t required Arya to behave illogically and out of character to advance a plot line. While it may have been more challenging to craft scripts in which Arya befriended Daenerys, it would’ve been more rewarding and much more consistent with her backstory.
I wouldn’t say they were the only ones (Hodor was definitely one, Beric as well.) Barristan was ambushed, so that was more indirect. Many died because of loyalties but not necessarily in the same location as those they were fighting for, of course.
Leaf seemed to sacrifice herself in the end, I thought, to give Bran and crew more time.
Sandor “I’m not quite dead” was presumed to have died for Arya, but ended up not, out of sheer luck.
Edd died protecting Sam, although he didn’t intend to….
Theon died for Bran. I’d put him in the hero class, even if he didn’t directly “save” Bran, he sure put in the most effort and sacrificed himself (I still am baffled as to his method, but ok.) But wow did he let those arrows fly, and then acted when he knew he’d die.
My brain is tired, I know there are others. Jorah’s was so classic though, the 2 of them vs. massive odds. Still love how Dany picked up a weapon and fought as best she could as well.
Ten Bears,
Oh, I know!! My statement was intended as assurance to others who enjoy season 8 that I’m not trying to unnecessarily bash season 8 and I never have thought you were either 🙂 That these points are real frustrations I have, not because I want to have these problems or I’m looking for something to complain about but these problems, I do have.
It’s like, I don’t want to get pimples at the worst time possible but those pimples, they still exist.
Yes, and I think this might be the reason for some of these odd writing choices.
And Arya’s met Tywin!
I think it was meant as Arya and Sansa finally being on the same side in a show of sister solidarity, Arya siding with Sansa — even against Jon — because (I assume) of their final conversation in season 7. That this was a new Sansa and Arya, together! Unified! Or something.
Which I can appreciate. But as one of four sisters, my finding new common ground with Sister #2 (my nemesis) or Sister #4 (the worst), which I have (… at times) — it doesn’t mean we no longer disagree on anything.
I think that was unintentional, but I agree. It didn’t feel justified to me either.
And I absolutely agree with you about Arya, and I think that was a writing choice to drive the plot in as few episodes as possible. I also think that the core Arya is still the same, she was a friend of the misfit, the defender of the underdog, she gave people a chance. I would have absolutely expected the Arya of Not 8×04 to give Dany a chance — willingly. She’s the girlfriend of her favourite brother, she rides dragons, Jon wants Arya to get to know her, she fights in battle, she’s a big reason why there’s a North still standing, etc. etc.
I agree. And I think some of these illogical developments (like the 8×01, 8×02 scenes) were to advance a plot line.
Adrianacandle,
The “false narrative” created or perpetuated by Jon by his silence, was that he’d given up his crown to secure Dany’s help – when in fact she’d already pledged her help with no strings attached. If Jon “bent the knee” and forgot that his people wouldn’t accept a Southern ruler just because Dany was cute, well then he really was a moron and deserved to be exiled back to the Wall.
It would have been nice if we’d been shown that his heart was clouding his head. Perhaps because I didn’t buy into the Jon-Dany romance, that did not appear to be a reason his judgment was impaired. (It’s one thing for characters to “say” they’re in love, or for other characters like Davos and Tyrion to make such observations. It’s another matter entirely for the alleged lovebirds to sell the romance – a challenge for any two actors to accomplish in a few scenes in a handful of episodes with sparse dialogue.)
About the “false narrative”:
I’ll have to rewatch some of those S8 scenes. I distinctly remember thinking “Hey, Meathead, that’s not what happened!”
Ten Bears,
Yes, I’m sorry if it seemed I didn’t know what you were talking about. And I think this, too, was one of the illogical writing issues we talked about, like that 8×02 scene where Dany says she agreed to come North because she loves Jon — which isn’t why she agreed in 7×06. As for the false narrative, it wasn’t even discussed by the Northern lords — or anyone, really. My point was the North seems to disliked Dany because she’s the Mad King’s daughter (7×02, 8×01), the reasons never seem to expand beyond this. Well, Sam doesn’t like Dany since he learned she fried his family.
I know we’ve talked about this before (Jon and Dany) but I, myself, got that impression from this 7×06 scene, that Jon’s personal feelings were influencing his judgment. I think it’s a matter of perception that varies from viewer to viewer. If it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t. If it does, great! Season 8 Gendry-Arya worked for some people, it didn’t work for others. Robb-Talisa was fine for some, lame for others. I’ve had pairings that never worked for me so I tend to fast-foward them 🙂
Could I BE any more excited?
Adrianacandle,
Re: the smartest person Arya had ever met…
Yes! Arya met Tywin – who in a short time sussed out that Arya was a highborn posing as a commoner, and when she tried to backtrack, called her out: “Has anyone ever told you you’re too smart for your own good.”
I’d argue that Sandor, in his own gruff, inimitable fashion, imparted valuable wisdom to Arya and in a sense was one of the smartest people she’d ever met. (I could write reams about the wit and wisdom of Sandor Clegane, so I’ll stop here for now. 🙂)
Arya certainly carried forward valuable lessons from Syrio Forel too.
Now, not to bash Sansa: Perhaps this is where “Missed Conversations” come into play again: After announcing at the end of S6 that “only a fool would trust Littlefinger”, in S7 she trusts LF – and if we are to believe the WF storyline as presented – Sansa was nearly duped into believing Arya wanted to kill her.
Because the show went for the big “Ah Ha!”, turn-the-tables on LF scene in S7e7, we never got to see how, if, or when Sansa deduced LF was running a scam on the sisters. (Apparently, an omitted scene had Sansa consulting Bran at the last minute or something? If so, then it was Bran peering into the past that exposed LF rather than brilliant deductive reasoning on Sansa’s part.) However Sansa came to realize LF was behind the silly sisterly feud, we never got to see Sansa figuring it out.
It’s kind of a shame. I for one would’ve enjoyed watching Sansa demonstrate that she’d become the smartest person Arya had ever met – maybe with a few short scenes like the show did in S2? when Tyrion told different versions (to Varys, Pycelle, and LF) of his arranged marriage of Myrcella in order to flush out that Pycelle was Cersei’s spy.
If there was something that happened between the end of S7 and the beginning of S8 that convinced Arya that her sister was the smartest person she’d ever met, then either a bit of exposition explaining why, or brief scene(s) justifying that belief, would’ve prevented Arya’s assertion from being a “WTF?” head-scratching distraction. It also might have made it credible that Arya would blindly accept Sansa’s “Dany is bad news” assessment without bothering to meet her and form her own opinion.
PS I should hasten to add that this kind of “missed conversation” that would have demonstrated a character’s superior reasoning skills must be difficult to write from scratch. This is where the lack of source material from GRRM must have severely handicapped the showrunners.
Ten Bears,
True! 🙂
Yeah. I think the reason for this is dramatic effect — the scene seems to be leading up to Sansa intending to execute her own sister… until she calls out Littlefinger’s name. And I think this is why Sansa doesn’t tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale. The battle seems lost… until the 11th-hour Knights of the Vale arrival.
And yeah, I think that omitted scene had Sansa seeking Bran out to get the truth before she makes any … final … decisions:
It’s hard for me to believe that Sansa actually thinks Arya of all people would want to usurp her as Lady of Winterfell and what’s more, Littlefinger is who convinces her. As a result, I’m glad they left out this scene. It was hard enough for me to believe Arya was threatening to take Sansa’s face so I’m really glad they left this scene out.
Me too!
And I agree that it would have been helpful in explaining why Arya would feel the way she did in season 8.
Absolutely and I think D&D are very capable writers — they catapulted a medieval fantasy series into one of the most popular and defining shows of the 2010s! So they’re doing something right! Even my mum watched it and she never watches anything like Game of Thrones! But something about the first episode hooked her right away.
It was a super tall order to write the end of Game of Thrones, especially when the books are still far from finished and they haven’t had that rich source of book material to reference since season 5.
Sorry to rehash: To me, the S7e6 scene didn’t make sense because (a) Dany had already committed to join with Jon to fight the NK, so bending the knee was unnecessary; (b) Jon knew full well – and Dany reminded him – that his people didn’t want a Southern ruler; and (c) he had to know that making such a momentous decision unilaterally without telling his people first was not only unnecessary but was asking for trouble.
I did not perceive that scene as portraying Jon thinking with his [slang for phallus]. Nor would I have expected him to repeat Robb’s “f*ck my responsibilities – this chick is hot!” mistake, after Jon had previously chosen his NW duties over his love for Ygritte.
I don’t recall any scenes suggesting that Jon’s judgment was impaired by his attraction to Dany. If that was the case, then Jon Snow was the dumbest (and most selfish) sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms, and undeserving of a second life.
Again, I’ll have to rewatch early S8 episodes again because I thought Jon characterized his decision as an imperative, i.e., surrendering Northern sovereignty was the quid pro quo for getting the desperately needed help, without which the North was surely doomed.
Ten Bears,
I think it was Dany was now pledging to fight the undead (a threat Jon has been begging people to give a sh!t about for years), despite the great personal loss of her dragon, to defend the realm — something Jon has been trying to do all these years. I think this moves Jon greatly. Most people dismissed the undead being a thing and if they do accept the threat, it’s secondary to other concerns.
I doubt Jon was thinking this through fully, which is kind of… consistent with more than one of his decisions. He makes big, unilateral decisions without really preparing people first or considering the consequences.
It’s not really the same choice Jon faced with Ygritte. With Ygritte, it was the wildlings vs. the Watch. They were coming to attack the realm, Jon had to choose. In contrast, Dany wasn’t coming to attack the North or the realm, she was vowing to help him save the North and Westeros. Jon views his duty as defending his people, not making them happy, and Dany’s helping him defend the people. As queen, she’s planning to defend the people (and showing Jon she’s willing to fight the realm’s then-greatest-threat to do that). He’s always been about unity, never separatism and I think he saw Dany as the queen for Westeros, as he told Sansa that Dany would make a good queen.
Robb making a similar mistake with Talisa isn’t really going to prevent Jon from doing so. And Talisa wasn’t helping Robb defend the kingdom. The North isn’t in a great place to make demands.
I think once Jon saw Dany swoop in and save his group, that was the moment which led up to the 7×06 boat scene.
I think other characters have made similarly not-great decisions for the sake of plot. Like Sansa withholding Knights of the Vale info and willing to let Jon go up against terrible odds in battle. Arya deciding she won’t trust anybody who’s not a Stark. Sansa trusting Littlefinger again. I think it’s done for conflict.
The only statement I remember Jon making like this is when he said, “I had a choice, keep my crown or protect the North. I chose the North.”
I’ve gone why I think this was an illogical writing blip because it feels like the writers forgot what Jon and Dany said in 7×06. And Dany has zero problem with Jon saying this, as if this is what happened. Likewise, Dany states different reasons in 8×02 for coming North than her on-screen reasons in 7×06.
I can maybe reconcile it by Jon believing unity under Queen Dany was their best chance and if the show had explored how to sustain a post-war independent North (instead of granting the North independence at Sansa’s request in 8×06), I’d go into it but I don’t think the show considered this aspect.
Adrianacandle,
“The only statement I remember Jon making like this is when he said, “I had a choice, keep my crown or protect the North. I chose the North.”
——
That sounds familiar. If that’s the only statement. it’s not true, is it?
Perhaps if that S7e6 stateroom scene had been scripted just a little bit differently it all could have been reconciled, e.g., if Dany hadn’t undertaken to join him to fight the NK before Jon decided to give up his crown; or if Dany stuck to her guns from earlier in S7 on Dragonstone when she told Jon something like: “I will fight for you. I will fight for the North…When you bend the knee.”. At that juncture. knowing that the AotD was on the move (as Bran saw with BirdieVision and as Sandor saw in the flames) and threatening to get past the Wall somehow at Eastwatch, then Jon could justifiably say he felt he had no choice but to give up his crown to protect his people.
Didn’t his statement “I had a choice, keep my crown or protect the North” at least imply that “bending the knee” was the price Dany had exacted for bringing her armies and dragons to “fight for the North” as she’d told Jon in the cave on Dragonstone?
Jon’s (inaccurate) statement unfairly made Dany out to be an imperious ruler extorting Jon at a time when his people faced the imminent threat of annihilation if he didn’t relent to her demands; and Jon made himself out to be a self-sacrificing leader who’d been left with no choice but to surrender his crown and the North’s sovereignty, or his people would surely be exterminated.
How would it have messed up the plot if Dany had persisted in demanding fealty as a precondition to fighting for the North? Then, at least Sansa and the other reluctant Northerners would have a reason to chafe at being unwilling subjects of a strange, Targ queen.
Likewise, if King Jon rode in side by side with Queen Daenerys as allies and equals, he could’ve tried to “sell” the concept of a semi-autonomous North under a mutually beneficial monarchy later
on, while giving his people the opportunity to get to see her for who (he thought) she was.
The show still could have had Dany feel she wasn’t getting enough unconditional love quickly enough…
(Sh*t. I’m probably repeating myself.) Anyway, it was really up to Jon to mount a PR campaign to overcome anti-Targ prejudice and convince his people Dany was a benevolent, kind-hearted leader whose motives aligned with theirs, e.g., defeat the NK. Questions about the future political structure either should’ve been put on the back burner until they knew they’d even have a future.)
Am I wrong that Jon’s statement was false, and impugned Daenerys while making himself look better?
Adrianacandle,
“I doubt Jon was thinking this through fully, which is kind of… consistent with more than one of his decisions. He makes big, unilateral decisions without really preparing people first or considering the consequences.”
So… he really was the dumbest sh*t in the Seven Kingdoms, and never learned from his mistakes?
I still don’t understand how he went from “my people won’t accept a Southern ruler” to “Surprise, people! Say hello to your Southern ruler!”
Ten Bears,
I fear I’m starting to repeat myself. It was a weirdly scripted scene, as if the writers forgot what happened — I don’t know what the writers were trying to do there. I think this was a writing blip. They had Dany forget what she said in 7×06, same as they had Jon forget what he said.
It doesn’t look like Dany remembers either as she appears completely fine with Jon’s statement, adding to the disconnect.
I shared how I was able to reconcile it but that’s all I can do.
Then Jon’s statement didn’t work (but I don’t think this is what the writers were trying to have Jon do, like I don’t think Sansa was trying to have Jon killed when she withheld KoTV info or told his secret). It didn’t stop Sansa and Northern lords from giving Jon crap or being angry at him, they directed their ire at him in that scene and were angry that they had armies helping them defend against the undead, help they needed. Help Jon said he was going to get.
They were anti-Targaryen from 7×02, they were never going to give Dany a hailing welcome. None of Westeros was. After Jon made that statement, his words in 8×01 are never discussed again: not by Dany, not by the Northern lords. According to the dialogue, they didn’t like Dany because they knew her as the Mad King’s daughter. Sam seemed on board with Dany in 8×01… until Dany tells him of his father and brother near the end of that same episode.
I shared above why, according to the script, Jon bent the knee and I think it was a development in the Jon/Dany relationship at that time in 7×06. Jon was unwilling to bend the knee because he didn’t know her and then, in 7×06, after Dany saved her group and swore to defend the realm, even after losing Viserion, he felt he knew her. Finding out this reason why Jon bent the knee wouldn’t do much to sooth the tensions because a) they’d find out love was involved (which didn’t soften Sansa’s feelings toward Dany) and b) they’d find out why the wight hunt happened. What’s more, Dany didn’t react to Jon’s statement — as if she didn’t remember either.
Because of that, I think it was a writing blip, an attempt to find fast solutions because this is never discussed again.
Sansa and the Northerners were already against Dany before Jon made that statement, from 7×01 onward. Before they even laid eyes on Dany — and they were always going to be unhappy once Jon bent the knee. They have had a bad history (in living memory) with Targaryens. Dany, herself, is not responsible for the Mad King’s crimes but she, herself, has an unsavory reputation following her around.
JHowever, the only stated reason in the dialogue the Northern lords, Sansa, and the Vale have is because Dany is the Mad Queen’s daughter. Sam is the only one bothered by Dany burning the Tarlys.
Well, I’ve said bending the knee was dumb. I’ve also said PR is a skill Jon hasn’t had in 7 years of the show and I’d be surprised if they started that in season 8, the season that seemed the most time-aware to hit the basic beats of the story and get to the end. If Arya’s not going to give Dany a chance, if Sansa’s going to be openly angry, if Dany’s not going to allow the people time to know her or be a little bit flexible, etc. I don’t think the writers would have Jon develop a new skill he’s never displayed before.
Tyrion’s the one who does the PR, doesn’t he, as her campaign advisor? I’m wondering why he didn’t mount this campaign as her advisor. But it’s another thing left undone by the writers to get Dany to that Mad Queen place right away.
That’s the thing, I don’t know. They were pissed at Jon, angry that armies were coming to help them defeat the dead, they blamed Jon for giving up his crown. They were anti-Targaryen before but afterward, the Northern lords and Dany never bring it up Jon’s statement again. Dany and the Northern lords don’t even have interactions after this. The only possible interaction they would have had would have been at the feast and Dany still receives a toast and cheers. Later, the North still marches under Jon’s command to fight for Dany.
The original statment I made that spurned this conversation (“She did not get the welcome she anticipated. She wasn’t embraced by the people, which I think was a huge blow to her.“), this wasn’t limited to the North. This was all of Westeros. They didn’t cry out to Dany, wanting her to liberate them, especially in King’s Landing — the people Dany came to save. She wasn’t viewed as a messiah. Not only not by the North, but by the whole continent.
Ten Bears,
That seems to be a problem with a few characters and I don’t think it’s intentional. Sansa still seems to trust Littlefinger in season 7, even after she said anyone would be a fool to trust Littlefinger, until the end of that season end where she realizes Littlefinger is screwing with her and Arya. Dany still relies on Tyrion for plans, despite failure after failure. Tyrion trusts Cersei until 8×02. Jon’s still making unilateral decisions without prepping people.
I explained the best I could above how Jon wasn’t being pragmatic whatsoever when he bent the knee in 7×02 and how, yeah, it seemed to be a decision based on emotion, especially considering the shooting script. Dany seemed to be everything he wanted in a queen there.
As to the writing inconsistencies in 8×01, I have the same questions across the board. Why did Dany not bring up marriage to nullify claims when she’s the one who said, in 6×10, she needed to make a marital alliance? Why did Sansa opt for antagonism instead of “courtsey is a lady’s armour” per her lessons when trying to get what she wanted from Dany? Why did Tormund forget he rode a dragon too? Since when is Arya “Starks Only”? Why would Dany refuse to consider Sansa’s request for Northern independence when she gave Yara the independence of the Iron Islands? Why didn’t they remember Arya was a Faceless Assassin when discussing how to defeat Cersei in 8×04, Cersei — who Arya was going to King’s Landing anyway to kill? Why didn’t the writers have Dany on the lookout for an ambush when she knows Euron has a fleet and is looking to take her down?
The show did a lot of things really really well, and I thought season 1-4 were great, 5 wasn’t my favourite, really liked season 6 and I enjoyed season 7.
But season 8 felt like a Cliff’s Note version of basic story beats to get to the end, thus some of the plot inconsistencies (I think), lack of development, and some contrived moments. If they were intentional, I’d think they’d be addressed.
Adrianacandle,
* (Amendment to my previous statement) Dany would also have been in the same room with the Northern lords when she, Sansa, and Jon were holding Jaime’s trial in 8×02 and their battle planning sessions but the aforementioned inconsistency was never acknowledged in either, both seemed to involve environments pretty neutral toward Dany, focused on the task at hand (Jaime, the battle against the undead).
Adrianacandle,
* Bent the knee in 7×06, not 7×02 🙂
Ten Bears,
In-universe, I think this would have been the better and smarter option, definitely.
But show-wise, I think they wanted this conflict in particular between Sansa, Jon, and Dany off the bat, bringing about disunity before unity against a common foe. If Jon remained KiTN, Sansa wouldn’t be pissed at Jon about giving up his crown, Northern lords wouldn’t be (so) pissed with some opting out of Winterfell’s defense, Sansa would have one less problem with Dany since Sansa would still have what she wanted (the North’s independence) and wouldn’t be suspecting that Dany seduced Jon into giving up his crown to her, she wouldn’t have a reason to spill Jon’s secret, pushing down that first domino in a sequence of unfortunate events (as I think she did that in order to gain the North’s independence with Jon on the throne), Dany couldn’t demand that Sansa suck it up and respect her as queen. I think Jon’s bending the knee was to bring about conflict between these characters, some of which led to Dany’s dark turn (particularly Sansa breaking her vow and sharing that secret with Tyrion, who told Varys, etc.).
Adrianacandle,
• You’ve raised lots of unanswered and unanswerable questions. I previously wondered
if perhaps they lacked a continuity or script supervisor – or if exhaustion coupled with seclusion in a two-man echo chamber and years of praise blinded the showrunners to apparent inconsistencies. Or else (and I’d hate to think this was the case) making jumps between plot points took precedence over logic and consistency :whatever it took to dump more and more angst and frustration on Dany.
• As for one of your questions:
”Why didn’t they remember Arya was a Faceless Assassin when discussing how to defeat Cersei in 8×04, Cersei — who Arya was going to King’s Landing anyway to kill?
• I’m not sure anyone knew that Arya had attended Murder School except for maybe Sansa. Arya certainly didn’t broadcast it. (More on that in a minute.)
• Sansa knew about Arya’s face-changing from that weird scene when she was snooping through Arya’s room and found her facemask satchel, only to turn around and see Arya watching her. After Sansa freaked and demanded to know “What are these!” Arya provided a macabre overview of how she can “be other people” with the faces.
If Bran knew about Arya’s FM skills, he probably wouldn’t think to mention it unless asked a direct question.
• I’m 90% sure that in the first scene (cold open) of the original script for S7e1 that I read online, Arya peeled off her Walder mask and told his stunned child wife: “When people ask you what happened here, tell them the North remembers. Tell them Arya Stark remembers.”
Obviously,, they changed that last line before the scene was filmed. I assume it was to preserve Arya’s anonymity.
From Jaime’s conversation with Cersei later in the episode about the fate of the Freys (i.e., “I guess we’ll need some new allies” 😉) it was clear nobody knew the identity of the assassin.
• In Arya’s S8e1 reunion with Jon, she downplayed her martial skills. (Jon asked her if she’d ever used Needle, and she answered “Once or twice.”)
• While Arya did show off her swordfighting abilities with Brienne; left Davos with his mouth agape when he witnessed her slicing and dicing wights with her double-tipped spear; and did of course stick a knife into the Horned F*cker, I’m not sure anyone else (other than Sansa) knew anything about her FM training – and Sansa only knew about the masks.*
Arya didn’t boast about it. and as far as I recall nobody knew she’d single-handedly avenged the Red Wedding by killing Walder, his two damn moron sons, and “the men who helped slaughter the Starks at the Red Wedding.”
*(If Sansa was “the smartest person” she’d ever met, one would think that reports of a strange face-changing girl wiping out House Frey would have reached WF at some point, and Sansa would have put two and two together and realized it was Arya.)
• Nevertheless, as others have pointed out, Arya could have conceivably revealed her FM skills and volunteered to sneak into the Red Keep and assassinate Cersei (using her knowledge from S1 of the subterranean passageway in and out).
Then again, if Dany hadn’t nuked the city, perhaps Arya’s unannounced special ops mission to kill Cersei would have succeeded and the war ended without massive loss of life. (I’m still not sure how Arya and Sandor left WF on horseback during the e4 festivities and yet Dany and her armies arrived in KL at around the same time….)
• Did I miss something? Was there anything to suggest that anyone knew “Arya was a Faceless Assassin when they were discussing how to defeat Cersei in 8 x 04”?
Pigeon,
Benjen.
Ten Bears,
This is exactly what I wondered and what I’ve discussed offline with my local friends too. I’m sympathetic to D&D’s position and the challenges they faced having to write three seasons of the show without any books as a framework. Neither they or GRRM intended for D&D to finish the series while GRRM is still two books from finishing. I can only imagine what a difficult situation that’d be.
I’ve always felt consistency and continuity sometimes took a back seat to the story meeting all those major story beats it needed to in order progress through the rest of this story in a limited amount of episodes, especially the final 6. Like the Night King could probably get into Westeros without a dragon — in the original Long Night, all the seas froze and the Wall only guards one border. But that’d take time to do. I don’t know why the series had to end within 73 episodes but I’m sure there’s a reason.
I worded that wrong and realized some of your points right after I posted it.
Right, I don’t know if anyone — except maybe Sansa — knew Arya was a trained assassin. However, everyone knew Arya was skilled enough to kill the Night King (and did), she didn’t train in secret, Arya didn’t boast about her skills but she didn’t really keep her skills hidden.
But at the same time, I don’t know who — aside from Sansa, Bran, and Sandor (who wasn’t in the room) — knew about Arya’s list and her driving desire to kill Cersei. But I just wonder — why didn’t Arya say something? That she’d take care of Cersei? I feel Dany and Sansa both had reasonable points in that scene: Dany is concerned that Cersei was garnering more power while Dany was tucked away in the North (and Cersei was working on that) and Sansa made a good point about soldiers needing rest before taking on another war. I think Arya could have benefitted the situation here.
Not that I’m blaming Arya the character! I think the writing needed to have Dany lose Rhaegal and Missandei to help break her down.
This is what I wondered and I think I know why. I think if Dany stays safely up north, Rhaegal and Missandei don’t die, and so Dany has fewer reasons to snap in a compressed time frame.
No, you’re right!
Adrianacandle,
Can I say that I think you hit the nail on the head?
Many of the characters’ odd behaviors and inexplicable decisions almost seemed reverse-engineered to “bring about conflict between these characters” – all to heap more grief, betrayal and anger on Dany (and triggering her latent Targ propensity for madness, as Vargs apparently feared.)
These conflicts felt forced and contrived because they weren’t natural, and required characters to behave inconsistently and in some cases, not very intelligently.
They also felt “off” to me because as GRRM is fond of saying, (something about) the drama that interests him is “the human heart in conflict with itself” – as opposed to characters in conflict with each other. That to me is what felt “different” about the latter seasons, especially the manufactured conflicts between Sansa and Arya and Sansa and Jon in S7, and the conflicts between Dany and just about everyone in S8.
I’ll have to retrieve GRRM’s exact quote. I suspect that he’d shy away from concocting inter-character conflicts to create artificial “drama.” If that makes sense….
Adrianacandle,
“But I just wonder — why didn’t Arya say something? That she’d take care of Cersei?“
A: Reverse engineering from the pre-planned outcome. If Arya had undertaken a Seal Team Six-type stealth operation, Dany wouldn’t have had to attack KL and would not have been in a position to go full-on looney tunes while flying a WMD over the city.
The “plot” lead-ins worked backwards from the pre-established ending: Dany nuking the city.
Yes, I agree. And I think you mentioned in another thread how it takes time to craft these inner conflicts and built up to the culmination.
For example, Jon’s downfall at the end of book 5 inadvertently comes about as a result of Jon’s own actions through that book, as he experiences tremendous inner conflict between his desire to set the world to rights, his love for his little sister, and his duty to hold true to the Watch’s true purpose. Adam Feldman summarizes these inner conflicts really well, Jon has no good choices but his choices all lead to his own stabbing at the end of book 5:
It doesn’t feel manufactured, it feels earned (to me) for lack of a better word. And I think it takes time to build these storylines to reach a point of feeling earned.
I think season 8 made genuine attempts to create that inner conflict within characters: Jaime, Tyrion, Dany, Sansa, Jon, Arya, Brienne, but I think this needed more time to develop rather than opting for characters making choices so the story can engineer this conflict and its various twists and turns.
Yes, that was my feeling. If Dany could have some assurance that Cersei was being taken care of while she allowed Rhaegal and her forces to recover, it may have prevented those additional personal losses from happening, giving her less reason to snap.
Adrianacandle,
”This is what I wondered and I think I know why. I think if Dany stays safely up north, Rhaegal and Missandei don’t die, and so Dany has fewer reasons to snap in a compressed time frame.”
Precisely! The plot points have to service the reverse-engineered outcome. Any logical actions or normal behavior that might spare Dany heartache have to be jettisoned. In many ways, S8 was all about driving Dany nuts. (Apologies fo those who disagree: I felt that on the show, even Jon’s paternity – the big “R+L = J” reveal – turned out to be just another sucker punch to Dany’s ego.)
Ten Bears,
I agree, I felt this way too. It was to bring about an outcome they needed to happen to get to the end.
And I share your apologies — with all I’m saying, I mean no offense to anyone who disagrees. I know there are people who love and adore season 8 and I’m sincerely glad it works for them. I wanted it to work for me but these were some of my problems and I don’t think they were entirely D&D’s fault, I think D&D were in a difficult position (and GRRM!! I think, if he could have, he would have gotten that 6th book out by now but I suspect he might be really stuck on how to bring it together — and that’s such a crappy crappy feeling.)
But I am grateful for this show ever being created, I think it is a miracle. Who knew a medieval show with dragons and magical elements could have become one of the most popular shows in the entire world? And I love the characters. And when it was good, it was so good.
Aside from the problems I felt the writing had, everything else was amazing!
Adrianacandle,
Far be it for me to think I could come up with a better ending. I just wasn’t thrilled with the “Dany suffers psychotic break” or whatever happened to her. I thought one of those irreconcilable “inner conflicts” you described would have been more in line with GRRM’s characterizations. (Going mad is detachment from reality. It’s not “the human heart in conflict with itself.”)
That’s why I had thought a (rational) Dany confronting a straight-up “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” choice at the end would have been more compelling, something like I described earlier…
With the AotD about to breach the city walls (in which case, 1,000,000 new wight recruits = end of human life on the planet), Jon might want to try to mount a long-shot (futile) attempt to defend the city; Dany realizes the only sure-fire solution is to “burn them all” – zombies and humans alike – and overrules Jon.
She’d still be remembered (or vilified) as the Targ who incinerated an entire city. She still might be assassinated for it. At least there would be some moral ambiguity. Beyond the shock value, going crazy and becoming delusional doesn’t have the same weight.
This may be an inappropriate real world historical analogy:
Neither option was palatable. Both options had devastating consequences.
Adrianacandle,
Yeah, GRRM really did leave them twisting in the wind. I remain convinced that the showrunners planted the “seeds” and embedded clues early on according to GRRM’s blueprint, and once they passed the books GRRM still hadn’t figured out how he was going to tie all those clues together.
As many of us have observed, these two guys signed up to produce a TV adaptation of a series of novels – not to finish the story the author didn’t or couldn’t. If they had to cut corners or fall back on cliches and standard plot devices – who can really blame them? They didn’t have the luxury of an indefinite number of years to write and re-write scripts, etc.
I’m not saying anything new…
Adrianacandle,
“… And I love the characters. And when it was good, it was so good.
Aside from the problems I felt the writing had, everything else was amazing!“
If 60 out of 73 hours were superb, that’s still a great batting average. Best of all was seeing those characters over 8+ years. I’m used to shows that start off with a bang – and then start sucking by the second season, or get cancelled abruptly without warning because “ratings.”
Now, having said that…When will we see the Arya spinoff show!!!
(Star Trek: Picard starts in two weeks – nearly 26 years after the conclusion of the seven-year run of the original series, Star Trek: The Next Generation. I trust someone can come up with some fresh ideas and a boatload of cash to entice Maisie Williams to reprise her role of Arya within a couple of years…)
I agree, I would have liked to have seen some more nuance too. I think that would have added more weight, more conflict, especially that conflict you describe Dany having because there’s no good choice here, which I think is the epitome of “heart in conflict with itself.” Whatever you do, you lose.
Like I’m deciding between apartments right now and I feel torn in two!
That’s not the best comparison (having to decide between the end of humanity and the deaths of humans among zombies) but 😉
I feel that way too. I’m sympathetic to GRRM as well, you can’t just force this stuff out, but I too have doubts he figured out the in-betweens by the time D&D caught up. It did leave D&D in a tough, tough position that none of them anticipated. No, it’s not like they had indefinite amounts of time to figure out how to conclude this giant saga, they had a limited timeframe in which to do it all in.
Ten Bears,
Yup!!
Arya the Explorer… It would be a good idea, to explore those lands West of Westeros! In the places so west, they’re east again, there’s strange-ass stuff.
My dad, a long-time follower of Picard, is very excited for that! When I was little, all I knew about my dad was a) scientist b) computers c) Star Trek.
Oh, and he likes Earl Grey tea… probably because of Picard…
Adrianacandle,
Correction!
*[Apartment hunting is] not the best comparison *to having to decide between the end of humanity and the deaths of humans among zombies but 😉
Adrianacandle,
I was never a die-hard fan of the original Star Trek. When I first saw promos for “Star Trek: The Next Generation” I thought the name sounded dumb (it practically screamed derivative rip-off).
The new captain was played by a Shakespearean actor who hardly fit the swashbuckling mold.
I tuned in to the two-part series premiere anyway…And it was really good. It paid homage to the original without copying it. Here’s a short clip from Star Trek: The Next Generation – “Encounter at Farpoint” (Series Premiere), with a cameo by Admiral McCoy (Dr. McCoy from the original Star Trek).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ajRaTq7Eow
—-
Out of 178 episodes from September 1987 – May, 1994, there were some “filler” episodes now and then. However, most were excellent and well-written. The two-part series finale stuck the landing – in part because they brought back the fan favorite recurring guest star (John de Lancie) who’d also appeared in the series premiere.
Now that GoT has concluded, you might want to check out ST:TNG.
Ten Bears,
Thanks for the clip and recommendation!
I’ve heard similar things about how well-written Next Generation is! Two of my friends got into Next Generation a few years ago and another was a life-long Star Trek fan because of Next Generation (at her wedding, she had the Deanna Troy hair! I wanted her to walk down to the aisle to the theme from Back to the Future and a smoke machine, illuminated only by LED lights, but she went for Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts… and full sunshine. Sigh.)
Next Generation is what I think of when I think of Star Trek! It’s what I remember my dad watching when I was young, I think that was his favourite version too.
Off to watch the clip!
(Also, I’m sorry if I used any incorrect words in my posts — there are times when my hands type something similar to the word I was thinking of but not the actual word I wanted to use. ie: spurned/spurred on, a stupid mistake I’ve made more than once. I’m a mess!)
Good lord, how could I have forgotten. ❤❤❤
Jorahs final scene was magnificent and Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss wrote it beautifully. Just brilliant ❤️
Well, I can tell you are not an elderly woman, or it would strike you how realistic this is 😋
Well, I can tell you are not an elderly woman, or it would strike you how realistic this is 😋
Well, I, for one, thought Sophie Turner ‘s face made it crystal clear at the end of LF’ s “pretend you’re someone else” little game, when the conclusion comes (“Lady of Winterfell”). For me, her face was yelling “got you, Man, my sister could not dream of being a lady. You lost. My turn”. So, I felt very confused at the beginning of Arya’s “trial” 😅 Funny how subjective the perception of acting can be !