This is not a drill, people — we have new footage of Season 8 of Game of Thrones!! It’s only a glimpse of a portion of a scene, but we’ll take it. Seven save us, will we take it.
HBO ran a TV spot highlighting its 2019 lineup about an hour and half into the 76th annual Golden Globes telecast on Sunday night (quick shoutout to Richard Madden, who took home best actor in a drama series for his BBC show Bodyguard), and among the teasers for its other offerings, we were hit full in the face with a five-second scene of brand-new footage from the upcoming final season of the world’s most popular TV show. The Thrones scene starts at just about :38 seconds in:
In the short clip, we see Daenerys — wearing the gorgeous red-tinged fur coat she sports on the Entertainment Weekly magazine cover from a few months back — in Winterfell, Jorah by her side, walking purposefully toward Jon and Sansa. The Lady of Winterfell appears to take a deep breath before announcing, “Winterfell is yours, Your Grace.” End scene.
There’s so much to unpack in just these four or five seconds. You can cut the tension with a knife, for starters — Sansa smiles when she welcomes Dany, and Dany smiles back, but we can tell this is going to be one tense meeting. I can practically hear Jon whispering to Sansa “Be nice” out of the corner of his mouth as Dany approaches.
Brienne, seen over Sansa’s shoulder, looks very concerned. Jon looks happy to have Dany by his side, which means he either hasn’t seen Bran yet or Bran is in full cryptic three-eyed raven mode and hasn’t exactly told Jon what he knows about his parentage (and other, ahem, sensitive details). We don’t see Arya either — has the long-awaited Jon/Arya reunion hug already happened? Or is she as unhappy with Jon bending the knee to Dany as Sansa is? Let us know your thoughts!
Nice! Trailer coming next month hopefully!
Not really sure how to feel about this whole idea of handing Winterfell over to Dany.
My first impression is that I’m really not a fan of it.
But it is wonderful to have some footage. Now, to quote the late and great Bobby B., give us a damn date and trailer before I p*ss meself !!
On another note, Dany looks positively gorgeous.
I am dying. I seriously need to see someone (OK, by someone, I mean Arya and/or Gendry, and by Arya and/or Gendry, I really mean Arya) soon.
I just finished my rewatch of the entire series and am very happy to say that season 07 was much better the second time around. Alas, the one thing that still didn’t really work for me was the great love story between Jon and Dany so I really don’t care about them as a pair so what will happen with them, when they find out and what it will do to their relationship, I just don’t care. And, frankly, that seems to be all that any of the promotion seems to be focusing on at this point.
GIVE ME MORE about OTHER STUFF!!!!
With that said… nice to see Sansa being all Lady of Winterfell-y with Dany. (Take that, haters!)
Woo-hoo! As soon as the HBO promo was showing I was hoping for a new GoT clip since that’s what happened last year as well and we got to see a quick shot of Arya.
I think this was also the safest clip to show since previous interviews have already alluded to this first meet and tension. Also, we already knew Sansa was upset about Jon bending the knee based on last season. Still loved it though. Loving that red cravat thing haha.
It took them long enough – this trend of making everyone wait two years between seasons is a bad one. Sherlock did it and I hated their last season. Hopefully this won’t be the case and they waited this long so that they could have a really good GOT final season. And are they going to start the GOT spin off (I don’t know what else to call it) this April as well? Anyone know?
Oh my f*cking god, can we have something new that doesn’t include stupid Sansa tension for once. Now it’ll be nothing but speculation about “Shansha hates Durnaryssss” for a month.
However.
Jorah looks fiiiine. Hello Jorah. Brienne isn’t concerned, she’s just looking at that fine Jorah. Damn right. And Arya’s probably charming Davos.
Yeah, it’s more like maroon: kind of a dried-blood color. I’m wondering what sort of symbolism they want us to take from that.
Meanwhile, Brienne’s expression could curdle direwolf milk. When she disapproves of something, she’s usually right.
Haven’t we heard the line ‘Winterfell is yours, Your Grace’ before, verbatim? Ned to Bobby B in S1 E1, methinks?
Dany’s coat looks positively Weirwood tree-ish.
I’m very concerned about Ghost getting along with Drogon. Nice tease…Did D&J fly in together?
I want to see Arya, Sansa, Brienne, etc reaction when they see Drogon and Rhaegal. Dany should have just flown in and landed right in WF on Drogon lol.
Firannion,
I do remember reading some sort of interview where someone (D or D?) said Jon and Dany’s arrival will echo the first episode when Bobby B and Cersei visited Winterfell.
Well I’m a Sansa fan and she was biting her lips, and Danny is like oh! this is the one I need to worry about.
Both sizing up their bra sizes.
Courtesy is a lady’s armor.
Firannion,
You’re absolutely right. I think it is just a common saying to a King or Queen. I think this was selectively picked to throw people off. I doubt Sansa/Dany tension will be a significant storyline in the final season, given its scope and amount of time left.
Shouldn’t Arya and Bran be there for the arrival?
Also interesting that Jorah is my Dany’s side and not the Hand of the Queen Tyrion.
Also a massive congrats to Richard Madden for the GG, which he 100% deserved. 😊
That little sneak peek excited me more than it should have. It revealed nothing and yet was so telling as to what the atmosphere of the premiere will be.
Bring on the trailer next month!
With the first tease being Sansa eyeing someone while hugging Jon & now this one being the most likely next scene of Sansa telling Dany Winterfell is hers kinda half heartedly… Are they telling us there will be some serious tension? Will Sansa and other Northerners have doubts about Jon once he’s revealed to be a Targ? Also with the Night King having a dragon, I can easily see many blaming Dany for that &the Wall being breached.
Last year they showed Arya approaching Winterfell and she played a large part in the WF storyline. This year we’ve had 2 scenes of Sansa, Dany, & Jon meeting in Winterfell. I don’t think the LF execution and Arya/Sansa battlement scene concluded her power struggle/family loyalty storyline. I think that story will continue into this season.
It’s a shame D&D have done a terrible job of showing it on screen. It must be important (GRRM approved) if they keep going there though… I just hope they make the tension more plausible and realistic. Let Sansa show some serious political skills. No more of that wishy washy shit please?
Same! Can’t wait to see Arya in the first teaser/trailer. I’m curious to see what they’ll show of her, because even though it’s obvious she’ll be there and have her reunion with Jon, that moment will be saved for the premiere episode to keep us guessing how it will happen.
Most certainly. They’re probably both just out of shot in that scene. Perhaps Arya is standing next to Brienne?
I’ve got a good question for everyone. Could anyone tell if Dany’s winter coat was hiding a baby bump? It seemed a little loose around the stomach and waistline areas… Were her outfits more form fitting last season? Hmmm…???
Aegon the IceDragon,
I highly doubt they’ll spend time trying to extend a storyline that was poor received in the last season. They don’t even really have the time to expound on that. And for what it’s worth, I believe Sophie stated that Sansa would be facing a new threat going into season 8.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Your right it was more form fitted last season, it went in at her waist but I think it’s a bit too soon for her to be showing but then again if she wears this coat a lot this season then it would indeed cover up Her pregnancy, I believe Dany and us as the audience won’t find out about her pregnancy until probably mid way through in the season
Edward,
It’s gotta be Cersei then right? Hasn’t it always been Sansa vs Cersei? Those 2 seem linked since season 1.
Congrats to Richard for the golden globe win, he deserves it.
They are definitely hyping up tension between Dany and Sansa just like they did between Jon and Sansa last season though honestly it feels more like a distraction for what is really gonna happen like in S7, it probably won’t last more than a EP until they talk and get to know each other.
Wait/ they are making a Watchmen series?
Where have I been?
Firannion,
Well one thing it could be is to keep Dany’s neck warm as people in WF and the north tend to wear high necks
It could also be showing her to be the same colour as Ghost and a Weirwood tree or embracing both Targaryen and Stark colours
Or it could be to simply cover up the hickeys Jon has left on her neck….
I wanna see Arya roll up to this warm winterfell welcome in disguise… with a helmet on… or maybe… someone else’s face?
Jk. But maybe yeah, slipping in like a spy to get a look at Jon and the Queen, before she extends herself.
Aegon the IceDragon,
Jon said if the Dothraki ride hard on the King’s Road they’d arrive at Winterfell in a fortnight. Maybe sailing is quicker… her pregnancy would be about two weeks old.
The arrival at Winterfell poses a lot of challenges in terms of how to stagger key character meetings — while most of those can just be skirted over initially and addressed in later scenes, I personally think the writers are likely to contrive to have Jon and Arya’s reunion be its own separate scene elsewhere by having Arya absent for whatever reason (say she’s on patrol or what have you).
Sean C.,
I like the idea that some have suggested before that Arya goes to greet Jon and Dany at White Harbor. Either that or she rides out to meet them a little ahead of their arrival at Winterfell. In any case, they need to do something to give their reunion its own space.
The latter would be in character, for sure. She would probably want her reunion with Jon to be more one-on-one than some big public welcome ceremony. Maybe we’ll see a short, shifty-looking soldier tailing him until he realizes he’s being followed, whirls around and whips out Longclaw – only to find it clash with Needle and his jaw drops. Arya will certainly want to show him how far she’s progressed in her fighting prowess!
They may also contrive some distracting errand for Tyrion (riding out to intercept Jaime’s party?) in order to have his reunion with Sansa be more private. I’m really curious how that’s going to play out: merely awkward? Or Sansa realizing that he hadn’t been such a nightmarish match after all?
I think she at least needs to express her regrets that he took the rap for the plot to assassinate Joffrey, from which she benefited even if she wasn’t a knowing participant. It would be nice if she also acknowledged Tyrion’s kindness to her while they were married. There’s a piece of me that wishes she would warm up to him, maybe even consider remarrying. The initiative would have to come from her, of course.
Right on, Rygritte. And sometimes you give ground to gain it. Sansa’s playing the long game, which may be why Brienne looks so concerned. Gwendolyn at some point in the long ago said Brienne would be worried about what power could do to the dynamic of their relationship. Doubt she’ll be happy when she learns what the Wolf Sisters were up to.
I think the tension will go through the battle at Winterfell at least. Just because you choose to be allies doesn’t mean you’re friends. And D&D promised the ep. 3 battle will focus on a lot of interpersonal issues while all ice hell is breaking loose around them. And, by the old gods and the new, so casually giving away your people can’t go without consequence. Especially to the woman who burned the Tarleys similar to how her papa burned the Starks. Chekov’s gun.
The other obvious thing from this scene is no one knows about Eastwatch yet.
God, I love how every body looks worried, icy or shady while Jon just has a blank look on his face. He really still hasn’t realized that him betraying the north and handing it to Dany would be an issue. He really is a dolt like Jamie said.
Also interesting how whenever political tension is mentioned people start throwing fits about how “there is no time for that”, yes, there is only time for golden cliched hero Jon Snore to fight the NK and be proclaimed King, I wonder how many shots of Jesus Savior Jon swinging his sword it’s gonna take before they realize that watching him fight in every single episode will be the worst thing to happen for the season.
~~~~~!JORAH!~~~~~
That is all
😀
Jack Bauer 24,
I guess, the first real trailer comes with the Super Bowl.
You couldn’t blame Sansa for being pissed. Winterfell is only back in Stark hands mostly due to her. Jon had to be persuaded to fight for it, and then he would have lost the battle if the Vale knights hadn’t turned up. And now he’s virtually given it over to Dany.
I hope Dany’s got the sense to give Sansa her due re. the preparations for the war and includes her in any planning. Sansa’s main problem with Jon is that he doesn’t consult with her, so there’ll be resentment if he and Dany shut her out.
Jon said it to Sansa, when he left for Dragonstone.
I wish we could have heard Daenerys’ response to Sansa.
Enharmony1625,
I’m still hoping for my scenario where Arya joins them in disguise on the Kingsroad to get a true feel for Daenerys, and her relationship with Jon. You know, when Daenerys would be acting like a real person and not the cold, unemotional royal she tends to when meeting new people.
Aegon the IceDragon,
They really just don’t want to show more than what happens in episode 1
That’s why this is what we are seeing
It will be like season 7 where the Jon sansa rivalry was teased for months and yet was only a thing for like 3 scenes
in case you are interested in Music of the teaser: “Here we stand” by Svrcina ( hidden citizens).
Even with the fact we know very little to nothing about S8 it’s pretty clear that this clip comes near the very start of the premiere and that fireworks will fly in Winterfell. Clearly Dany is uneasy arriving (why?), clearly Jon doesn’t know he’s the rightful heir at this point, clearly Sansa is unhappy and distrusting of Dany. I fully expect the first episode to run close to an hour focusing on these character moments when individuals first meet, some key reunions and end with the bomb shells of Jamie arriving at Winterfell, the Army of the Dead attacking the Northern castle/Nights Watch and Jon finding out about his parentage. It’s going to be huge drama.
My only fear with this clip is that they really do make us wait for the trailer until the start of Feb and simply pass this off as enough promo for now.
Ps. The idea that Dany will be heavily pregnant when arriving at Winterfell doesn’t appear to be correct, she may be in the early stages here but that means no baby being born before the big battle in Episode 3 at least.
Brienne’s expression is the one thing that genuinely confuses me. She was in the South in the last episode so presumably travelled back with team Targ and has no logical reason to show distrust so why is she suddenly all moody, especially as this is very likely the start of the premiere.
Daenerys looks absurd. I can only assume that they’ve tried to deliberately make her seem out of place / like an outsider, because the costume department surely can’t have got things that badly wrong.
Not gonna lie, out of context this clip seems rather cheap, like the Dragonpit sequence last year. Hopefully in its proper context it’ll feel more authentic.
I think one of the things throwing me off is the near complete lack of snow. It is meant to be winter, right?
Agree 110%.
I love both Jon and Dany (not Sansa), but I don’t ship them and am not really invested in their romantic relationship either.
The tension will probably boil over pretty quickly, though. Or be forced to.
Man, we’d better at least get the specific date this month, if not the trailer! They obviously know it; what’s the point of withholding it?! Dx
This is the thing, there is no baby being born before the battle with the Army of the Dead and if it’s born then its one of the final two episodes and that doesn’t leave much time or threat to kill Dany.
I think it’s Sansa she’s concerned about. She’s looking straight at her and she must know how unhappy Sansa is. Last season Brienne made it clear in her speech to Jaime that her priorities are shifting towards the White Walkers and houses, oaths and vows are becoming secondary. She probably wants nothing to happen to cause dissent amongst the Northerners and Dany.
That said, I suspect that Brienne and Pod rode straight back whereas Jon and Dany and co went via Dragonstone, so Brienne might have got back earlier.
Exactly, she was being very much the Lady of Winterfell. She was welcoming Dany, she was doing what she was supposed to do per Jon’s orders, but she was also sizing Dany up at the same time. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t take away that she was very much being the Lady of Winterfell to a tee.
Firannion,
Speaking of Tyrion, I know that Tyrion and Sansa never consummated, but wouldn’t they still be technically be married in some law somewhere? I would think Tyrion/Sansa reunion is an interesting one. Is there some Westeros unwritten law that since Sansa wasn’t “besmirched”, her marriage to Tyrion was annulled after a certain amount of time? Yes, I know that she is also now widow Bolton, and they made some justification for saying she wasn’t really married since it wasn’t consummated… or could Tyrion now make his claim to the North that he’s still married to her? I don’t think they will go there, but I’m curious. I sincerely hope they don’t spend too much time with Sansa. There are only 6 episodes, and Sansa drama would be my least favorite thing to watch.
Tron79,
The show retconned the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in Season 5 and has been clear since that they aren’t married. Tyrion made that point himself when meeting Jon in Season 7.
hahahahahaha
Firannion,
+1 I think Brienne’s opinion are even more true-ish than that of Tyrion. We need to listen to her.
Arya is preparing to assassinate the Queen. She just got the orders from Bran.
Assasins creed Game of thrones releasing in 2019.
Meg,
+1
HelloThere,
Only this time they stated it will be episodes the tension.
Jon Snowed,
I think the trailer will be later because they are busy getting the CGI they want for it. Lot of CGI this season and if we get a trailer we need to see some of the action, maybe even a glimpse of a new creature like an ice spider. I think February looks like the date for that. they have 3 months left (yes they work until the last episode is shown to us) for completing the rest.
Jon Snowed,
Because she traveled with them we can assume she has a better viewing about if we can trust Dany and co. I think personally the problem is the Dotraki, I don’t think Brienne aprove of them.
whateverdgaf,
Is also a possibility.
Tron79,
I don’t think Tyrion would ever force her like that. What can happen is that Sansa realize Tyrion was the only one who she can trust (After Ramsay she need someone who she can trust), and she wasn’t really unhappy in 3×10 only after she learned about her brother’s dead. If something will happen it’s because of Sansa. But I think they just stay “friends”
Pretty sure that’s Arya’s head behind Sansa. It’s the right height & she would be standing next to Brienne in the receiving line cuz she ain’t no lady.
Clob: “I wish we could have heard Daenerys’ response to Sansa.”
She looked surprised.
I’m wondering how the truth about Jon will be outed. I read many comments that it will be in a closed environment. But I think it will be all in the open.
I think episode 1 will end in the winterfell. Sansa will ask Jon and Dany to come forward, because they have information to share. But instead of only them she invites all the northern lords, and the lords from the south that are still there. Bran and Sam tell the truth for all to hear.
Episode 2 can start with the northern lords telling that Jon needs to set her aside, choosing his birthright. Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam etc telling him to do that too. Maybe a small hint that they can’t feed her army.
At the same time Dany will feel humiliated by the way it was handled. We can have a scene after that where see talk with Jon and blame his family. This could start a rift between them.
This way there’s a lot of ways the rest could work out. Dany going mad. Dany stepping aside. Maybe Jon step aside even if he knows the truth. That way the northern lords could react which lead to episode 3 first battle before the WW attack. What if part 1 is about the lord trying to assassinate Dany. And the Starks trying to defend her.
That’s what I love about the information of season 8, we know some plotpoints. Episode 3 big battle. Episode 1 arriving in Winterfell. We know we are going to KL in episode 5 or 6. But we don’t know how it will resolve. The most important aspect: The characters. We don’t know anything about.
ps. for people thinking I dislike Dany. I like her character. Yes I don’t care if she will live or die in the next season, turning evil or stay good etc. Same with every character. As long as it’s done right every direction is okay with me.
ps2. Does anyone here watch Luther? Season 5 aired this week. Every episode in 1 week. And Patrick Malahide (Balon Greyjoy) was staring in it. Amazing actor.
Jon Snowed: “My only fear with this clip is that they really do make us wait for the trailer until the start of Feb”
End of Feb
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man: “I think one of the things throwing me off is the near complete lack of snow.”
I know! I guess that shot of the tents outside was later? I’m guessing they have to make the snow dramatic when NK brings the storm.
I don’t agree with this. They didn’t didn’t retcon it. Retconning is when you add new information to suddenly revise/change a story that was already told. That is not what happened. Littlefinger and Roose Bolton pulled shit out of their asses and played with the whole Old Gods vs the New Gods to justify the marriage. Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion and did so under the Seven and she never consummated the marriage. No retconning. That all happened.
And Tyrion didn’t make any such point. I literally just watched that scene yesterday. All he said is that it was “a sham marriage and unconsummated.” Which is the truth; it was a sham marriage. By Tyrion’s words, he wasn’t saying that they weren’t married, he was simply calling it exactly what it was: a marriage of convenience (for his father), but not a real marriage in the standard sense.
Tyrion and Sansa were married by the Gods of the Seven. Sansa and Ramsey were married by the Old Gods. By that reasoning, Tyrion and Sansa are still married according to most of the Seven Kingdoms. I’ll be quite surprised if it doesn’t come up next season.
The speculation is that the trailer has been delayed until the Superbowl on 2nd Feb, certainly do not see any scenario where we have to wait any longer than that. In prior years we’ve always had a trailer 3 months in advance of the premiere to best of my knowledge and we are there now.
OMG, OMG, OMG! I’ll take anything right now. Sansa did not look too pleased to be giving over to Daeny. But how cares, its GOT Season 8!
Jon Snowed,
The first official trailer for season 6 was released on March, 8th, 2016 and for season 7 on May, 24th, 2017. In both instances less than 2 months before the season premiere.
Maybe I’m misremembering, but wasn’t there a line somewhere (probably from Baelish) to the effect that he’d arranged for a royal annulment of the marriage after Tyrion escaped? If so, probably while Tommen was still alive, via some mole among the Sparrows; he wouldn’t have wanted Cersei to think he knew of Sansa’s whereabouts. In fact, the whole notion that Cersei didn’t find out that Sansa – a woman with a big price on her head – was traveling openly with LF seems very fishy.
IMO, she looks taken back by Sansa’s remark that WF is hers. I don’t think Dany is looking to take WF. She’s trying to do what she can to help them.
Firannion,
Littlefinger never said anything about an annulment. Indeed, there has never been mention of annulment on the show, other than in the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna.
JenniferH,
The Old Gods/Seven thing was never used as a justification — couldn’t be, anyway, since the North itself conducts Faith marriages.
It was a retcon. That’s why Lysa in episode 405 stated that Sansa would be free to marry once Tyrion was dead, why everybody acted like they were conclusively married, etc, up to that point. But when told about Sansa marrying Ramsay in Season 5, Cersei, a southerner who was literally at Sansa’s first wedding, accepts without objection that it’s possible for her to do so, when “but she’s already married” would have been her first response if the show was suggesting other people still considered the Tyrion marriage to be valid.
JenniferH,
I agree. Sansa and Tyrion reuniting will be an interesting scene to say the least, in many levels.
…’cept for this season, we’ve been waiting for 2 years now. Maybe they’ll change up that schedule a bit because of the long break.
Sean C.,
“But when told about Sansa marrying Ramsay in Season 5, Cersei, a southerner who was literally at Sansa’s first wedding, accepts without objection that it’s possible for her to do so, when “but she’s already married” would have been her first response if the show was suggesting other people still considered the Tyrion marriage to be valid.”
Cersei was, understandably, more vexed by the fact Sansa was alive, well and in the North, in addition to the betrayal by the Boltons. Sansa setting her (despised) brother aside would not be her most pressing concern.
Apollo,
It would still be an automatic response to being told Sansa was getting married.
And more importantly, if the show itself was creating a scenario where Sansa’s marital status was meant to be ambiguous or that people down south actually still considered her to be married to Tyrion, that would have been in the show. Because in-universe, there is no ambiguity about Sansa’s ability to marry; it’s only fans arguing over book canon and the inadequacy of the show’s retcon that have ever suggested there’s supposed to be more to the story there. The foremost guide to the show will always be how the show presents the issue — and the Tyrion marriage they wanted to handwave away with as little time as possible.
Sure, the timing would be tight. That would be 10 months maximum from the time they arrive at Winterfell to the birth. I’m almost certain that her baby will survive… slightly less certain that she will. As for Jon, he’s such a tragic figure, I doubt he’ll make it.
Thanks Milutin, I stand corrected as I was certain we got the S7 trailer towards end of April and the S6 in Feb. I guess the Super Bowl timing does then make most sense with the final trailer dropping in March and some photos from premiere at the start of April.
Rygritte,
Ned said the same to Robert in season 1. When a King/Queen visits – they always hand over the home to them temporarily as a courtesy so the Royals don’t feel like ‘guests’ and instead feel like they are at ‘home and can behave’ accordingly and conduct the business of the realm without feeling like they are imposing. It’s akin to us today saying to a visiting family member or friend to ‘make yourself at home’ or ‘mi casa, sous casa’!
Seeing that this should be no more then a month from S7E7, shouldn’t the first thing Jon sees is a head on a spike on top of Winterfell ?
And a look of WTF from Jon?
Brienne is already familiar with Daenerys from the parlay and probably rode hard to give Sansa a full accounting of those events. Sansa should be more terrified that the Lannister army is supposed to be on its way to Winterfell… unless she’s weird and xenophobic and prefers a local known enemy to a foreign, and unknown, one. The Dothraki/Unsullied could provide insurance against the Lannisters – if it comes to that. I bet she’s not happy about Jon aligning with Cersei.
I guess everybody’s tense because this isn’t a peace time visit, like when Robert arrived, but it wasn’t really peaceful, back then. Robert and Nedd were just oblivious to it.
Grail King,
I find Dany’s look and smile to be quite unhappy, as if she smiles though she rather would like to cry…
Except it IS mentioned in-show. Lady Mormont says “Lady Bolton or is it Lady Lannister” in season 06. Sansa mentions that she married two of their enemies. Tyrion mentions their marriage in season 07. Jon tells Sansa that she knows Tyrion better than anyone.
A retcon is when new information is introduced to change a previous story. That simply HAS NOT HAPPENED. A line that Cersei does not say just because you think she should have said it does not mean a retcon happened.
In season 04:
– Tywin forced Tyrion to marry Sansa.
– Tyrion and Sansa were married under the Seven Gods.
– Tyrion told Sansa that he would not force her to consummate the marriage until she wanted to.
– When Sansa and Tyrion left King’s Landing separately, the marriage had not been consummated. Sansa was still a virgin.
In season 06:
– Littlefinger and Roose Bolton conspired to marry Sansa to Ramsey Bolton, using the information that Littlefinger already knew (and viewers knew), namely that Sansa was a virgin, the marriage was unconsummated. And according to Littlefinger, that made Sansa “no man’s wife according to the law of the land.”
There was no retconning. No revising previous story told. Furthermore, it may not have been said, but it’s in the foundation of the show. The North follows the Old Gods, the South follows the New Gods (the Seven)… we very clearly saw Sansa married under two different religions. That matters.
And the marriage/relationship between Sansa and Tyrion has not been ignored or forgotten. Actually, of all past relationships/reunions that people have mentioned they are looking forward to/interested in seeing how they play out, Sansa and Tyrion have actually gotten as many reminders of their past relationship as the one people are arguably most looking forward to:
Jon/Arya: 2
Sansa/Tyrion: 2
Arya/Hound: 1
Jon/Sam: 1
Jon/Bran: 1
Arya/Gendry: 0
Jaime/Bran: 0
Sansa/Hound: 0
It may beable to go either way, but I’m sure ( at least hope ) Jon’s astute enough to tell Danny, that Sansa’s not a push over and she will need to win her over, in a honest fashion;No BS. I’m also sure if Arrya’s near by and smell BS she warn Sansa and this time Sansa will take that info into account.
I desperately need Sansa + Dany sisterhood – that is all I really want to be happy. Sansa works the political angle in the south, Dany burns zombies. Jon can just keep brooding away in some dark corner while the ladies take care of business. 😉
Minor point, but this was season 3.
This was season 5.
The show has been somewhat fast and loose with Sansa’s marriage status. They’ve said more than once that the marriage was never consummated, therefore, the marriage is invalid. However, Lysa also intimated in season 4 that Tyrion needed to die in order for Sansa to marry Robin. However, one season later Sansa married Ramsey without the previous marriage to Tyrion ever becoming an issue. Littlefinger just assured Roose that Sansa was still a virgin, so she was free to re-marry. That’s not consistent at all, so it’s no wonder why there’s confusion over Sansa’s marriage status.
JenniferH,
You’re conflating references to Sansa and Tyrion having known each other/been married with indicators that they still are married. Sansa saying she’s been married twice, for instance, necessarily precludes the first from still being a thing. There has never been any further suggestion on the show that there was some dispute over her ability to marry Ramsay; Littlefinger’s little explanation in 503 was the last word on the subject.
It was a retcon. I mentioned Lysa’s comment, for instance; the first four seasons are written as if the book rules were in effect, and then when writing Season 5 the writers hastily retconned that by making so that Sansa could do basically whatever the hell she wanted, in order to make the Ramsay marriage happen.
Frankly, the way the show then handled Rhaegar and Lyanna is a further retcon, because in that instance the consummation issue was rendered entirely meaningless.
It’s not significant that the marriages were under different religions; both religions recognize each other’s rites, going by the canon.
cos alpha,
I think she appears taken aback by Sansa’s hospitality. After Jon kept telling her that the Northerners wouldn’t accept her as their ruler she probably expected a hostile reception. Likewise, Jon appears surprised and relieved by Sansa’s behaviour.
Obviously, this brief interaction is unlikely to tell the whole story. The drama over Dany’s presence / Jon’s actions isn’t just going to end with Sansa welcoming Dany to Winterfell in the first five minutes of the season.
Season 6 episode 1 premiere date was announced January 7th 2016
https://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-premiere-date-1201673677/
Season 8 Episode 1 premiere date might be announced soon!
I mean not to wade in to this but isn’t there quite a difference between Sansa wed to Tyrion when he was known to be alive and well in Westeros (s4) and Sansa being married to Tyrion when he’s in Essos and presumed dead (s5)? LF was justifying it by saying “well, Tyrion’s missing and probably dead, and the marriage wasn’t consummated anyway.”
But anyway there’s no “truth” in Westeros (nor on Earth TBH) about who’s married to who or who the “true heir” is. Rules of marriage and succession are always “ah yes, this was of course justified/legal…” post hoc by the winners. Truth is what men believe etc etc.
QueenofThrones,
Tyrion was never said to be presumed dead. On the contrary, he was an escapee and presumed alive.
Littlefinger’s sole explanation for Sansa being able to marry Ramsay was that it was unconsummated and therefore not binding.
JenniferH,
Correction about my last post–I did miss this part: that people down south
Considering it only comes up once in that conversation with Cersei, I really don’t think it matters because Cersei (at that point) had so many larger concerns on her mind. The High Sparrow and the Faith Militant, Tommen, her trial, etc. that who Sansa was or wasn’t married to just didn’t matter to. Now if Tyrion was around in Westeros that would have been different, and not pal-ing around with the Dragon Queen, sure…. but nah. Furthermore, Sansa was 1,000 miles away and what was going on with her just didn’t matter right then and there. Like AT ALL.
However, every season has made a point to remind viewers of their relationship. Season 05, Sansa defended Tyrion to Ramsey. Season 06, Lady Mormont specifically questioned whether Sansa was Lady Bolton or Lady Lannister, and last season, both Sansa and Tyrion not only spoke well of one another, but viewers were reminded (sham or not), that there was a marriage.
I’m not even remotely suggesting there’s some great love story that’s going to bloom between Tyrion and Sansa, just that (a) the idea that there was any kind of retconning frankly holds no water, and (b) the show has simply not forgotten the relationship between Sansa and Tyrion and has reminded viewers of that relationship.
Super excited! Bring it.
Also: more curious about Arya’s reaction to Dany than Sansa’s. We already were served with a dose of how weird she thinks is that Jon bent the knee. Ayra is a wild card. She’ll be glad to see him no doubt but will she warm up to Dany?!
JenniferH,
I was going to mention Lysa’s words. Definitely retcon.
I don’t think Jennifer remembered that Robin couldn’t marry Sansa without Tyrion being dead. Sansa marrying Ramsay was always a mess. To think they had this idea since season 2 and they couldn’t keep the stories straight even so.
Arya is DEFINITELY not going to like the prospect of the Lannister army riding for Winterfell! She’s had maybe a week to chew on that bit of intelligence, by now.
With Daenerys, the Starks have the greatest living threat to the Lannisters on their side, not to mention the Army of the Dead. Some might say that Arya is the greatest living threat to the Lannisters, with her talent for assassination. But Dany intends to unseat the Lannisters, a prospect that I don’t think even Sansa has thought possible. Her strategy so far has been to barricade herself in the North. As long as the Lannisters live, the North is in jeopardy.
So, Jon, Dany, Arya and Sansa are aligned…. or they should be. The only misalignment might be if Sansa has secret designs on the iron throne… and if Dany has a pro-Lannister traitor inside her operation: Tyrion
Am I the only one who doesn’t see some sort of “very concerned” look from Brienne? She simply looks like she’s paying attention to the conversation. I’m not seeing any particular look.
TormundsWoman,
Technically from what I understand, a marriage can only be annulled if the marriage wasn’t consummated, but they have to also make a request to the High Sparrow/Faith and request the annulment… Well ha! they are all blown up aren’t they… the high sparrow and all his little sparrows… so maybe the question is moot now.. I don’t think they will really want to address it. Little Finger made a remark that “By the law of the land, she’s no man’s wife”, but that was a bit self serving don’t you think. To me technically, they would still be married, but Tyrion won’t push it. If anything he may befriend Sansa and be her confidant. As Peter Dinklage said in a recent video, his relationship with Sansa was “like a flower growing out of dirty sidewalk.”
Decent prediction that Kevin, here is my loose tin foil guess:
Episode 1 – Focused heavily on character interactions, Dany made to feel very unwelcome. The end see’s Jamie arrive at Winterfell, the Army of the Dead defeat th Northern Castles. Jon be informed about his heritage is the cliff hanger.No notable deaths (maybe Tormund/Dolorus Edd).
Episode 2 – Major drama as people rally behind Jon, Dany feeling vulnerable leaves with Drogon, the Dothraki are defeated in the field by the Army of the Dead. Death of Greyworm.
Episode 3 – Major Battle for Winterfell, some characters hide others fight bravely. Death of Jorah, Tormund, Beric, Greyworm, maybe Missandei. Dany may come back to save the day with Drogon.
Episode 4 – Aftermath of the battle, Jon leaves for Kings Landing to align with Cersei and secure safe passage for the surivivors against Dany or Nights King. Jamie likely dies in this episode. Possible death of Euron.
Episode 5 – Attack on Kings Landing. Death of Dany, The Mountain. The Hound. Possibly the death of Jon. We may see death of Euron here if not episode before.
Episode 6 – Death of Cersei (if not episode before) and/or possibly Jon. We see the survivors dealing with the aftermath and deciding who will rule. I suspect if Jon lives he won’t be happy. I don’t see Dany surviving but if so she leaves. Cersei will be killed via trial if not in the fighting episode 5.
Jack Bauer 24,
I think Arya will freak out with the dragons, and I don’t believe she’ll have any problem with Jon pledging allegiance do Daenerys. Back on season 2, there’s a dialogue scene between Arya and Tywin Lannister at Harrenhal, when she showed a great respect for House Targaryen, most notably Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives.
How is Tyrion saying it was a “marriage,” sham or not, since the very definition of that is a marriage of convenience, i.e., maybe not a real marriage, but still, an actual marriage — not a reference to Sansa and Tyrion being married?
I did remember all of that about Lysa and Sweet Robin, etc. I just binge-watched the entire series. (And that’s why I got the season numbers wrong above, sorry.)
One of the things that I think that viewers (of series in general) don’t take into account is that we know all of these characters, we know everything that is going on (for the most part), we know what these are characters are doing. However, that is not the case for the characters themselves.
Who talks about Sansa’s marriage to Ramsey? Littlefinger, the Boltons, Brienne, Podrick (to Brienne), Lady Mormont (who also mentions Tyrion, which thus rather questions the so-called “law of the land” that Littlefinger mentioned), and one conversation with Cersei who was in the middle of dealing with a whole mess of King’s Landing’s issues (the High Sparrow, Faith Militants, Margery, everyone hating her/wanting to kill her, what else is new). And Sansa Stark is 1,000 miles away in the North. That’s a problem for her to deal with another day.
That’s it. Now of those people, when, why would discussion of the how could marriage even happen come up?
1.) Ramsey Bolton is hated, feared and despised. So people are not going to talk against him.
2.) Sansa Stark *is* Ned Stark’s daughter, so people are:
(a) Not going to say, well, she’s a whore who’s married to a Lannister and sleeping in Ramsey Bolton’s bed, and instead go with…
(b) Eh, the imp is probably dead anyway, so she was a widow, and everyone said the marriage was unconsummated anyway.
3.) It’s still kinda considered a time of war, and you know, Winter REALLY is coming.
4.) Again, Ramsey Bolton *is* hated, feared and despised, so if the North is stuck with him, at least they have, you know Ned Stark’s daughter in Winterfell.
And finally, after the Battle of the Bastards, the North is thinking…
5. YAY! Now he’s dead… so she’s Sansa STARK again and Bolton no more, so we don’t have to worry about it anymore! Who cares?!
I get that I’m obviously in the minority here, but binge-watching the series, seeing how all of the pieces and players fit and work, without letting the nitpicking I’ve read and complained about myself in the past guide me, a lot of things really do work. (Even the dreaded Winterfell story of season 07 that I complained about–it really does work and is plays out well). These characters aren’t omniscient; they aren’t going to react perfectly, they aren’t going to know everything that we know.
And very few characters knew or would have cared about why or how Sansa Stark was married to Tyrion and then was able to marry Ramsey Bolton in the North. There were too–way too–many greater concerns going on in their corner of the world and the greater world at large and Littlefinger and Roose Bolton knew that and took advantage of it.
I disagree here, tension between Dany and the people of Westeros especially the Starks makes absolute sense, and it will likely ramp up when they realise Jon is the true heir (why back a foreign invader?). I do expect it to lead to a fragile alliance at best until episode 3 and it will likely lead to the attack on Kings Landing in the later epsiodes by either Dany or the Nights King.
Mr Derp,
I agree. After watching the short clip several times, she’s actually looking at Sansa the entire time. Most likely watching to see how she will react …. like the rest of us 😂 I don’t really see any deeper meaning behind the look.
JenniferH,
“I am dying. I seriously need to see someone (OK, by someone, I mean Arya and/or Gendry, and by Arya and/or Gendry, I really mean Arya) soon.”
……..
I hear ya! Sansa’s had her time in the spotlight. Time for Arya to take center stage.
Ten Bears,
Do you think Arya will be a dragon rider like Visenya Targaryen (who wielded Dark Sister)? I may jump through the screen if that happens. Maisie said in one of her interviews that she filmed the most ever this year, so I’m hoping she has some major scenes.
Tron79,
You are right and their marriage still stands in the books but in the show I think things are different because she never should of being legally able to marry Ramsay without getting their marriage annulled but she did
Arya doesn’t have Targ blood, so she won’t be flying dragons unless we find out that, well, she does have secret Targ blood. As for seeing Arya a lot, well, from what I’ve heard, Maisie filmed more than anyone else, other than Kit so I expect we’ll see plenty of her and as it’s the last season, I can’t imagine it won’t be awesome.
Plus, she sounds really excited about Arya’s stuff this go-round and she’s generally been fairly upfront about Arya’s arcs. For instance, fans could tell that season 05 wasn’t going to be as amazing as we were hoping for Braavos based on her comments. But, again, she sounds really excited about season 08.
JenniferH,
That is a long ass answer to a very short observation! 😛 Sorry about my assumption. They are indeed the mother of all fuck ups…
I was only mentioning that you perhaps forgot because the information on how someone in the ruling classes in Westeros can remarry legally without a divorce or annulment in place while their marriage was not consummated was introduced to the viewer in a previous season: the husband needs to die. Funny that it was specifically referring to Sansa. According to your definition of retcon that you have posted even higher upthread, it most certainly qualifies.
To be sure, I understand that we are talking different characters with different takes that have no contact and cannot discuss and agree on how Sansa’s hypothetical remarriage after Tyrion left could be brought about. However, from the standpoint of the viewer and considering that LF landed a “law of the land” in-there, you’d think Lysa would know it and not decree that Tyrion must die and that she would rush to marry Robin with Sansa as a way to secure the North for her son. It is not the end of the world though. Retcons are not so unusual for crying out loud.
As long as there are no backsies on Romione to suit Harmony, I’m not going to pin David and Dan down and cry fake writers or something.
Mr Derp,
I agree Brienne seems to be have that look on her face quite often now
Jon Snowed,
The actor who plays Grey Worm was seen in Spain, so he definitely doesn’t die in EP 2
Tron79,
You are right and their marriage still stands in the books but in the show I think things are different because she never should of being legally able to marry Ramsay without getting their marriage annulled but she did
Lol good point!
I think Tyrion & Sansa meeting again will be something else. I am just as excited about that as Arya and Jon/Dany.
PS: LF does everything for himself obvi. But Roose agreed and it seemed like everyone else did too. So I guess everyone had an interest in it. Including Sansa ! :X
Oh, gosh, I completely understand and I know that retcons happen all the time. I just really don’t think it’s the case here. (Again, I know I’m clearly TOTES in the minority.) As for the “law of the land” comment. Well, that was Littlefinger. Pfft. And Lyanna Mormont’s… “Lady Bolton or is it Lady Lannister?” to me made it clear that Littlefinger’s so-called “law of the land” was worth as much as just about every other word that came out of his mouth. Nothing.
She wouldn’t have said that if there wasn’t some fishiness at play, in my opinion. Sure, it was obviously because Sansa wasn’t just a Stark in some Northern eyes, but that she’d married a Southerner, but if the “law of the land” was legitimate, then she was never married at all to Tyrion, so why was it even mentioned?
I don’t trust Littlefinger’s say-so on anything.
Jon Snowed,
I almost think the same, only I think Melisandre and co are going to save the day not Dany at winterfell. And I think Jaime will die in the same room as Cercei. Maybe just after of just before. I think he will kill Cercei, the mountain kill him, and Sandor kills the mountain.
Does anyone know when we got the runtime of the episodes last seasons? I know it changed by 1 or 2 minutes in season 7 with 2 or 3 episodes but when was the first estimate.
And when are we going to get a “guess the titles” topic.I always find it interesting what people think. And I think it would be interesting for the last season because we know things, but at the same time we don’t know anything.
Because: “Only a fool would trust Littlefinger.”
Oh, gosh, I completely understand and I know that retcons happen all the time. I just really don’t think it’s the case here. (Again, I know I’m clearly TOTES in the minority.) As for the “law of the land” comment. Well, that was Littlefinger. Pfft. And Lyanna Mormont’s… “Lady Bolton or is it Lady Lannister?” to me made it clear that Littlefinger’s so-called “law of the land” was worth as much as just about every other word that came out of his mouth. Nothing.
She wouldn’t have said that if there wasn’t some fishiness at play, in my opinion. Sure, it was obviously because Sansa wasn’t just a Stark in some Northern eyes, but that she’d married a Southerner, but if the “law of the land” was legitimate, then she was never married at all to Tyrion, so why was it even mentioned?
I don’t trust Littlefinger’s say-so on anything.
That was my point above. Not every else did too. Only Littlefinger and the Boltons did. They are the only ones (Nobles anyway) who agreed, discussed the marriage.* Sansa agreed because Littlefinger talked her into it, told her it would work. And LF and Roose didn’t care whether it was legitimate or not as long as they could get away it.
* Yes, yes, Cersei did in one scene–when she was dealing with lots and lots of other non-Sansa-related issues in KL and Sansa was a thousand miles away in the North and so not her biggest concern even remotely then.
kevin1989: “….Melisandre and co are going to save the day….”
Mel=AA & Jon=Lightbringer
JenniferH,
Re: riding the dragon, I figured perhaps since Arya was Jon’s cousin it would still sort of be somewhat still in the family…kind of like how Ghost gets along with Sam….but I understand that the riders are supposed to be Targs. I can still hope… I am excited to see what she does though. I think she may end up helping Sandor take care of the mountain and possibly Cersei as well. So much to hope for!
I like that quote! For some reason, I always thought that Sansa and Tyrion could bring the best out in each other. Neither wanted that marriage, but Tyrion did show respect to her and try to comfort her. Sansa was of course upset, but she was not cruel to Tyrion as so many had been, and as she could have been in private had she wanted to be. I’m not saying they should rekindle their relationship, but I think it would be a nice moment if they saw each other in a friendly light, albeit awkward at first.
It must have all melted after Theon and Sansa’s remarkably uninjured 40 foot drop off the wall a couple of seasons back. 😂
Tron79,
It’s all about old Valyrian blood, Gendry would be more likely able to ride a dragon since the Baratheon’s married quite a few Targaryen’s over the years than Arya who doesn’t have a single drop of Valyrian blood
This scene reminds me of a wedding with Ser Jorah walking Dany down the aisle, so to speak, to the awaiting arms of Jon at the altar, as Sansa looks on, greets- seemingly- unready but forced to officiate the ceremonies.
After Arya/Gendry (and the obligatory Arya/Jon, duh), Sansa and Tyrion is honestly the reunion I’m looking forward to the most. I’m really trying to not go into the season with any expectations and just enjoy it for what it will be, but gosh, I will be disappointed if we only get a scene or two between them. Dinklage is my favorite screen partner for Turner, and she’s probably my 2nd (maybe 3rd) favorite screen partner for him.
Pigeon,
That’s becuase she will be sacrificed to the weirwood tree
Enharmony1625,
I think she is, if you look really close you can see what looks like it might be a head to the left (Brienne’s right). Not enough to know for sure, and I don’t remember if Arya should be so short…but there’s something there.
Who knows, maybe we get a special shadow-baby not an evil one but a good one. (What if that’s what Jon and Dany get?)
But I meant more that we need a scene where we see some magic from the Red priests and priestesses. They are the ones that are fighting the NK. We need them in action and having it at the end of the battle when all hope seems lost would be the best place for them. That could be the redemption for Melisande.
Jon Stark is yours my queen.
JenniferH,
So you don’t take LF’s word as true: that it is the “law of the land” that should any marriage be not consummated the bride is really no man’s wife and she can marry someone else? You think everyone involved and everyone who was affected by it accepted the Ramsay/Sansa wedding knowing it is invalid, based on a mutual interest and a lie agreed upon?
That is terrible though. It would make Roose Bolton an idiot. It would literally leave him wide open for a war down the road. Anyone who suddenly felt like he is tired of the Boltons once the wildings are dealt with, could challenge his power in the North as not legitimate and any offspring of Ramsay & Sansa could be challenged as a bastard since the marriage is not legitimate. I never thought Roose Bolton as an idiot, he seemed to genuinely think it through gaining Sansa Stark as an daughter – in – law to solidify what he took by power and frankly I prefer the retcon.
As for not trusting LF’s say so in anything, unfortunately there is a problem with that as well. We all started to completely mistrust him that at some point when he defends himself to Sansa that he didn’t know of Ramsay’s tendencies and lots of us assumed he was full of shit. Turns out Benioff and Weiss had to literally explain in the behind the scenes that LF REALLY was telling the truth. So you see if he told the truth about that, what else he has told the truth about?
Last night GoT premiered in April was Season 6 on 4/24/16. They announced that date 3 years ago today on January 7th 2016. Hopefully they announce the exact date soon! Maybe they’ll wait until the trailer drops for the exact date.
Intriguing indeed. I cannot wait for S8 and I’m happy to say the net is going nuts especially with Dany’s completely lack of red outfit…. My phone is basic, but even I can tell is a scarf….. That’s maroon…. Not red!
The War of the Five Kings was about five different men who in various ways considered themselves legitimate rulers and had any of them won, would have “rightfully” sat on the Iron Throne. Roose Bolton had the North already once Sansa wed Ramsey. Who was going to take it from him? It didn’t matter how he got it. With Littlefinger/the Vale Army and the Bolton Army, who was going to rise against him, his family, the Stark name? They were the rulers in the North. Who would gainsay them? No one.
As he told Littlefinger, all he needed was Sansa’s Stark name. People in the North didn’t care that she may or may have been married to Tyrion Lannister. He was most likely dead anyway. And if he wasn’t yet, well, the second he stepped onto Westerosi soil, Cersei would take care of that. Problem solved.
Sure, they could challenge him, but they would be challenging *him* and he already would be in a position of power. He is already the Warden in the North. He already has the Stark name backing him up. He’s already gained other houses to his cause. Does the Roose Bolton (of the show) strike you as a man who is afraid to go to war? Without the Stark name, he doesn’t have as strong a hold on the North Wardenship or Winterfell. With it, he’s much, much more powerful. It’s a gambit worth risking, especially with all of the strength he has to defend himself and his own with it.
Just because D&D had to say, yeah, Littlefinger wasn’t lying about that one particular thing doesn’t mean everything else he said was true. He was still a lying piece of dung about just everything else.
Nick20,
Jon bent the knee remember. Meaning he’s warden of the North. It mirrors the scene between King Robert and Ned in Episode 1.
Are you kidding me? Yeesh. The deeper we wade into this morass, the clearer it becomes that D & D’s brainwave of substituting Sansa for Jeyne Poole in a horrible marriage to Ramsay – just to give her something more ‘interesting’ and center-stage to do than lie low in the Vale – was really a very, very bad, unthought-out decision. I for one can’t wait for TWoW to come out and cleanse my palate – with bleach, if need be. The real story is yet to be told.
Grail King,
Wait, what? Whose head? I guess Littlefinger?
JenniferH,
I guess we see Roose differently. I definitely saw show Roose as more of a smelling which way the wind is blowing, prefer to build power by marriage, plotting and making careful choices than I’m risking it all because I’m not afraid to fight after type. Definitely not a risk-all on a sham type the way I see book Roose.
It sure doesn’t. But it speaks volumes to the fact that the character may speak the truth and many viewers will never believe it. Also: I must have missed the part where I’m arguing that LF said the truth about everything else… I’m weird that way.
Firannion,
Yep, they did that. I had to listen myself to believe it because I was 100% sure LF must have known. Anyway, I’m sure they thought in terms of tv show and what do we do with Sophie during season 5 or something in those terms. They did say something to that effect in an interview. I don’t think they saw these discrepancies we see or if they did they probably banked on them being too minor to worry about.
There’s plenty of videos of people landing in snow piles from 80 feet above with little to no injuries. I was out in a field job a guy slid 60 feet down a roof and survived unscathed.
So in real life it’s not as ridiculous as you’re making it out to be.
Yeah, LF.
No, no! I think, they have burned his corpse – imagine LF as a Wight!!!
What is going on here? I thought D&D changed the feudal system, at least in the North, and titles are now subject to vote and not inheritance or succession anymore? Jon was voted to be King, Dany wasn’t. So how is WF or the North hers? I didn’t see any voting being done by the Northerners in S7 to proclaim Dany QitN. Jon because he was voted into office can step down any time he likes and he did that. But he can’t give the title away because he hasn’t inherited it or succeeded to it so he can’t pass it on to someone else. The title is subject to vote now. Or do D&D change the rules nilly willy as they see fit on a case by case basis? Wouldn’t surprise me since they don’t seem to have a grasp of how titles and the system work.
In ‘real life’ it is pretty rare to be uninjured (or to be lucky to get out of a deep mound of snow after falling into it from a good height and not be in danger of suffocating). I was raised in northern Canada, deep snow and rocky cliffs aren’t a foreign concept. But that wasn’t the point. The point is that the snow they had to have landed in to escaped unscathed doesn’t seem to have survived to this particular scene. Maybe someone took their Winterfell snowblower for a spin.
… or this is a scenecut from a later point in the story? After defeating the AotD?
Why on earth would it? It’s been probably less than a fortnight since Jon & Dany did the dirty onboard ship. Takes 5-6 months to “show.”
I actually feel a little better with you saying people actually survived such jumps. The only way I could justify it was that there were huge soft snow drifts. If it were icy snow, like what we have in the Midwest where I live they would have gone splat. But if it was puffy deep first snow, perhaps I can go with it…. When they didn’t show them land, I had an issue with it. I actually just watched that episode Thursday. I absolutely love Ramin Djawadi’s score during the chase. I think it’s a cello bow? Whatever it is, it’s a very powerful chase scene through the icy river. But I really had a tough time believing they jumped from such a height. Theon even lied to the Bolton’s that he left Sansa there because she broke her leg in the fall/jump!! But I’m going with that it was fluffy deep snow drifts, and that Grail King actually knows of survivors of such jumps.
.
Sean C.,
No, that’s not correct. A couple not becoming “husband and wife” until after they’ve consummated their marriage was established in season 3. It didn’t come out of nowhere. As for Lysa, she didn’t believe Littlefinger when he told her that Sansa and Tyrion never had sex. That’s why she confronted her and called her a whore.
Grail King,
Lol. I just went to look for videos on Youtube and the first one I found was of some Russian kids jumping off a 5 storey building into snow and the second comment under the video reads “Funny how this video has now become the most compelling evidence in Game of Thrones S5 Finale analysis” and another reads “Sansa lives”.
Has anyone seen this? HBO CEO Richard Plepler spoke to Variety last night after the Golden Globes and said this about Season 8…
“It’s a spectacle. The guys have done six movies. The reaction I had while watching them was, I’m watching a movie. They (David and Dan) knew the bar was high. They’ve exceeded the bar. I’ve watched them twice without any CGI and I’m in awe. Everybody’s in for an extraordinary treat of storytelling and of magical, magical production.”
Watched the final season twice without any CGI? That must look really awkward lol and I’m surprised they don’t have any CGI in place 3 months before release. They finished filming 6 months ago.
I know. But I still don’t like it.
Think this is from the Season 8 premiere. Could even be from the first scene. Richard Pleper just said he saw the final season without CGI so they probably don’t have much else to show right now. On top of that, I’d be shocked if Dany, Jon, Sansa, Brienne and Jorah all survive the final battle. Particularly Jorah.
It’s rare but there have been people who jumped/fell out of airplanes and survived without injuries, so it’s unlikely, but definitely not impossible
You’re right. To be honest much of the political aspect of the show has been nonsensical since Season 5. A LOT of stuff is contrary to how the system is supposed to work (Ellaria the bastard girlfriend of the Prince’s brother being the ruling power of Dorne after murdering said Prince is the height of lunacy).
I do think D&D change the rules as is required for them to force the plot where they want it to go. There are dozens of examples in the last three seasons.
Sometimes I think you’re the only person here who really understands the world and story.
Nick20,
That Dorne/Ellaria plot is definitely some of the most non-sensical shit the show has ever done. They should have created Arianne’s (Doran’s daughter) character from the books and only 2 sand snakes. Then had Ellaria pushing her to rebel (different from her book character but understandable).
At least Doran’s daughter staging a coup would have made some sense. It’s like D&D got too caught up in “women ruling” and went off the rails with that one. Way off the rails. They took a lot of the intense drama out of the show and made it more punchlines & goofy shit.
TormundsWoman,
It doesn’t matter what’s true. The victor decides what’s true. And a stark heir in the hand is worth two in the bush so to speak.
I mean in the book Roose marries Ramsey off to fake Arya. Marrying him to Sansa in a marragie that COULD be challenged maybe someday by someone who has absolute proof that Tyrion was known to be alive at the time is more secure than that. AND more importantly had the army to back up such a challenge and a better claim (note Roose thinks all other legit Starks dead at this point).
Neither way is Roose an idiot. Why NOT marry him to Sanasa if it helps convince any northerners to stay loyal to him it’s worth it. If he doesn’t win it doesn’t matter anyway if it’s found out to be “untrue” later on no ones in the position to challenge.
JR,
Jon’s been crowned as KITN by consensus of the other lords. It’s noy a democracy or change of government though. It’s still a feudal government. In essence the lords have all sworn their loyalty to him as king – in part due to his blood in part his courage in battle.
From that point he’s king of the north and basically an autocrat as any king or lord is in Westeros. he’s sent ahead word that he’s pledged the north as loyal to Dany not as queen of the NORTH but as queen of the 7k. As the King he has as much right to bend the knee as Torrhen Stark did ages ago.
Of course he may risk rebellion again as any king might. I assume Sansa has quieted it and carefully prepared the welcome. Here she is not literally giving Dany the north, she is only saying “as queen of the 7k our home is yours”. I think the same words passed between Robert and Ned in s1.
True but they all had one thing in common which Sansa and Theon didn’t – parachutes
Nick20,
Ellaria is the paramour of a popular prince who conspired with the popular daughters of the popular prince to assasinate an unpopular prince, thus giving Dorne the war the people have been craving for. It makes perfect sense, especially if you consider Varys’s quote from season 2, “Power resides where man believes it resides.”
Nick20,
No, he understands the book world and the book story. The problem is he tries to apply book logic to the show, but since the show diverged, it has its own logic. It’s hard for book readers to separate the two.
Me Funny,
No I meant without parachutes
Count me in on the “no retcon” side. By the conventions of Westeros, a marriage has to be consummated to be valid. That’s the point of the bedding ceremony after the wedding. Remember Tyrion refused to subject Sansa to it (as did Ned Stark, according to Catelyn). So I suppose none of the characters can know for sure, unlike the viewers.
Yes. For years the “truth” was that Queen Catherine and King Arthur never consummated, thus allowing Henry VIII to legally marry her after Arthur’s death. Then years later when Henry wanted an annulment it was “retconned” that in fact they had consummated and therefore the marriage was “incestuous” and illegal.
Why on earth is it so hard for people who watch this series/read these books to realize that people in power will create the truth that is politically convenient for them?? They did it in reality they will do it in fiction if it’s well written. Especially when there is any possibility of doubt? GRRM makes this crystal clear, and then you have pedants that can’t let go of the “reality” as if that actually matters.
I feel the same way, BTW, about things like Cersei’s kids. I don’t think it actually matters that they are biologically Jaimes’ children. Robert declared them his heirs, they are his heirs by the laws of gods and men. That is, unless you literally believe that incest causes people to be evil, or that blood is magical (maybe you have a case there for Targs + Dragons I guess) there’s no justification to put those children in danger as Ned did. He knows Robert will have them killed in an instant if he found out (he did the Targ babes after all). He was saved only by Roberts’ death.
Really the only reason any of us can stomach it is that Joffery is a budding psychopath. What if Tommen had been the oldest and Ned wanted to depose him? Roberts’ blood does not grant some mystical “right to rule” in any actual fact. Why should we even care whose claim is “the most legitimate” in fact? It’s all ceremonial nonsense built to keep power in the hands of a few.
I cannot speak for the other people who think Roose really believes that is the “law of the land” in Sansa/ Ramsay case, but for me people who conveniently invent their own truths are generally morons who think short terms and bad liars, and in this specific case idiots. Truth, generally speaking has a habit of eventually surfacing, in history as well, even if it is too late to do something about it or a moot point.
And I came to think of show Roose as smarter and a bit more risk averse than book Roose (who’s more of a cold snake, more untrusting and prefers to risk more in my opinion). I think he prefers to keep close to the truth or the realities of ruling and laws so as to not endanger his rule or his House rule in the North. I actually liked that he made Ramsay his legitimate heir, planning ahead even if he did marry Walda. He’s also more trusting in Ramsay for some reason and he seemed to genuinely like Walda all strange deviations as far as I’m concerned from the book Roose I know.
I have already answered this actually earlier in this thread, so it may be redundant, but as I see you quoted me before specifically about this in a upthread post, you will forgive me if I repeat myself.
I must have forgotten the order of show events, but I thought Roose knows the Stark boys live by the time Sansa marries Ramsay (you said at the time he thought them dead in your previous comment to me if I’m not mistaken). I remember Theon told him the truth about the boys he burnt and didn’t Roose send someone in the North to track the boys down (a failed op IIRC)? I also factored that in when I called Roose idiot. Two legit heirs with better claims than Sansa’s bastard by Ramsay if the law of the land line was just a alternative fact made up conveniently by Roose and LF just so he can have the North for as long as that would have stayed unchallenged (very short I’d wager).
Yes Doctor Phil. 😔 Please tell me more about the problems I’m having separating the two 🍿 Terrible comment. For shame YD. I thought better if you.
Did anyone else notice Dany’s hair? I don’t know why but it reminds me of Cersei’s hair in season 1 with a bit of Winterfell thrown in. Yes Dany had braids before but not this way, this particular hairstyle reminds me so much of Cersei’s and Sansa’s (from last season when she sported the “Cersei” hairstyle), why would Dany do that? Does anyone have any theories?
History doesn’t show this to be the case when it comes to feudal monarchy. History shows a bunch of war, murder, divorce, disinheritance, etc happened because people wanted power then they justified it afterwards because they could. The hereditary “right to rule” is a myth used to keep people in line and consolidate power, nothing more.
The only choice in question is whether Roose should marry Sansa to Ramsey or to not do so. I still see no downside in that marriage from Roose’s perspective. Who else should he marry Ramsey to if not Sansa? He can’t marry him to Bran or Rickon.
He could do fArya but that’s even less true than Sansa being unwed. If people don’t believe the marriage is legit he can just let Ramsey kill her and move on to someone else.
And of course if he finds the boys he’s going to murder them, not bend the knee to them. I suppose an alternative would be capture Rickon and use him as a figurehead. But far better to get your own blood in the seat of power and kill any “pretenders”.
And I meant that your original comment about people falling out of planes without being injured is nonsense. Unless of course you want to provide a link as evidence…
per books, Theon and Jeyne lands in a high mound of snow, but Jeyne is injured because Theon landed on her.
As I said there’s plenty of videos of surviving such a jump, a woman also survived from a 200 foot fall from a plane,she landed in some powerlines long way back like 2010 or 2012.
It’s all luck for the victims sure, but it’s in the realm of possibility
TormundsWoman,
I was referring to Sean C.
They can take his head and burn the body.
A few names to Google if you have spare time:
Luke Aikins
Vesna Vulović
Nicholas Alkemade
Alan Magee
Ivan Chisov
QueenofThrones,
You sound like I’ve challenged you to see something and I failed to make you. Far from it. For me Roose is an idiot if he goes with fabrication of “laws of the land” scenario as it is easy to check by any Lord with a raven should the lord be so inclined: “hey maester, is there anything written down about laws in cases such as Sansa’s or is Roose an power hungry idiot who thinks fact checking with Old Town is beyond my ability?”
I’ve said this in several occasions now. I’m fine with you thinking he’s not just like I am with Jennifer’s. I’m sure there’s plenty of people you think they are smart in their decisions and I think they are not. Perhaps it is time to move on.
Meg,
Firstly Jon didn’t just hand over the North to Dany. He refused her on multiple occasions before he got to know her a little better. He knows they will not survive the long night without Dany’s help. What he did was smart. The same cannot be said about Sansa who would rather have done it alone and risked getting everyone killed in the process like the rest of the lords in the north.
Also regarding the Battle of the Bastards. It was a group effort that resulted in them winning the battle. Not just Sansa sending out a simple letter. Jon actually put himself in danger knowing that it was likely that they would lose.
Had He not confronted them with a smaller force, Ramsay would have simply stayed inside the castle rather than confront them outside of it. Furthermore Jon would not have rushed into the battle unprepared had she told him of the Vale’s involvement.
Jon’s attack served as a distraction for the Sansa’s group to come in to get the victory. So many would not have died needlessly had Sansa told the truth.
Jon Snowed,
Brienne’s been giving Sansa stink-eye since Sansa’s first lies at the Wall in S6, through the dreadful time she had to bear with Sansa/LF in S7.
Of course it’s possible, just rare and definitely lucky. I tend to think of what a wreck Theon is physically to begin with, prior to launching off the wall. But I think suspending disbelief is pretty necessary with fiction, for sure. Videos of risk takers get views for the very nature of risk. The fails usually get taken down pretty quick from mainstream media if they get put up to begin with!
Brienne is the Queen of the Stink-Eye!
It is known.
Mr Derp,
Thank you mr Derp.
Google is only a click away if anyone really wants to know
Me Funny,
In my spare time I go on forums to make up stories about people falling from planes and surviving because I’m a compulsive liar. Happy?
Trebuchet,
I would put money on Brienne breaking away from Sansa next season. She has been in her service for a while now and it’s time to introduce some conflict. ‘Fuck loyalty’ proves Brienne’s priorities have changed (which in itself Sansa wouldn’t like considering the Vanity Fair article revealing Sansa to be jealous of Brienne and Arya) and Brienne needs to have her oaths challenged. Open resentment towards Dany when she is their best chance of fighting the WW could very well play a part in that, although Jaime will probably the major source of conflict.
whateverdgaf,
Not going to happen. She maybe will choose Arya over Sansa. But she’s not going to choose Dany over the starks. Not going to happen. She made that oath in season 2 and it’s important for her character. The only way she will choose Dany over Sansa is if Sansa would put another stark in mortal danger and Dany would be the one saving that character.
And don’t forget that Dany is less important to defeat the white walkers than we first though. Her dragons aren’t usable because night King can turn them.
And people forgot one thing. Beric and thormund know that the wall is broken because of a white dragon. How will the north react when they enter winterfel and explain that the white walker weren’t a treat until Dany gave him a dragon.
Beric: he broke the wall with dead viserion. He needed a dead dragon.
Umber: so what you’re saying is that without the dragon we would have been save for eternally.
Lady mormont: without you mother of dragons we wouldn’t be in danger. Sorry for saying but house mormont will not bow to the woman responsible for our demise.
Dany: jorah talk to her.
Jorah: sorry my queen,i think she’s right. And done being friend zoned. Bye.
Dany: wtf is happening.
Was my comment deleted? Did I spoil something we aren’t suppose to know? Lol
We already knew that there was going to be tension between Sansa and Dany. I want a damn trailer! How hard it is to put some scenes – that doesn’t have CGI, if thats an isuue – together and make a small trailer.
NinaD,
“Gwendolyn at some point in the long ago said Brienne would be worried about what power could do to the dynamic of their relationship. Doubt she’ll be happy when she learns what the Wolf Sisters were up to.”
Yes. She cannot disguise her unease or perhaps disapproval. She called Sansa out on lying in Season 6, and was supplanted by Littlefinger as Sansa’s confidante in Season 7. And she seemed upset about Sansa’s abrupt sending her to Kings Landing. Maybe before this Season 8 scene she and Sansa already disagreed on how to greet/treat Daenerys. Brienne is probably very uneasy with being committed to Sansa by now.
Clob,
I’m still hoping for my scenario where Arya joins them in disguise on the Kingsroad to get a true feel for Daenerys, and her relationship with Jon. You know, when Daenerys would be acting like a real person and not the cold, unemotional royal she tends to when meeting new people.
Clob, I envision something similar. Unless the Arrival scene is the first of Season 8, I can’t see Arya NOT going off to greet Jon herself. I’m not sure she’d even bother with a disguise. If possible, she might play a **respectful** game of faces with Daenerys to get her measure prior to entering Winterfell. Whether this happens or not, she (and Bran) will probably accept Dany readily compared to Sansa.
I’ve always found the words to Brienne’s oath of loyalty to Sansa (or rather, Sansa’s words in response) to have potential for an ‘out’ should it really be necessary.
Brienne:
“Lady Sansa, I offer my services once again. I will shield your back, and keep your counsel, and give my life for yours if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new.”
Sansa:
“And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth, and meat and mead at my table. I pledge to ask no service of you that may bring you dishonor. I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise.”
Along with “Fuck loyalty!”, Brienne could be done with oaths, should there be a good enough reason. I’m just not sure that there would be time for anything too drastic, however.
Pigeon,
‘Fuck loyalty’ is already pretty drastic. I suspect it has been simmering away for a wile now, but if a one White Walker has her yelling it before a crowd, then think about what a whole army will do!
Every episode is going to be longer, and so many people are in one location a lot of the storylines are going to come together ( Just imagine all these characters under one roof together for the first time!) I think this means we will have good time for character interactions and development.
They would most definitely want to include at least a little CGI in the trailer and Richard Pleper, HBO CEO, made it sound like CGI isn’t there yet. I’m still hoping for a trailer by the end of February.
Ah, yes. Of course. Brienne must distance herself from dastardly Sansa posthaste, lest she be sullied by all her devious machinations.
I mean, she stayed loyal to Catelyn despite being complicit in treason. And Jaime sleeps with his own sister and murders people, but Brienne can still see the honour in him. But Sansa tells a white lie and was curt towards her, so obviously it’s past time Brienne ditched her.
And, of course, Bran and Arya will warm up to Dany much quicker than Sansa. Monotone emotionless Bran, who probably knows more about Dany than she herself does, both good and bad, will surely find her an absolute delight. And cynical, suspicious Arya will simply use her magic lie detection powers to find out that Dany is simply ace.
But miserable old Sansa, who spent half her life bowing and scraping to a malicious queen and is second only to Jon in her responsibility to the safety and future of The North, she’ll be a right old stick in the mud and refuse to immediately jump aboard the Dany hype train. Some would call it caution. Others dislike Sansa.
And we can tell all of this from one clip in which Sansa dutifully grants Dany the run of Winterfell.
FTR, I can totally see them echoing the S1E1 situation where Arya snuck off to watch the royal party arrive separate from the rest of the family. That sounds totally appropriate.
But obviously it’d make much more sense for them to delay the formal arrival at Winterfell for a few scenes of Arya having a chinwag with Jon and Dany on the Kingsroad instead, before triumphantly riding into Winterfell alongside the other cool characters for no apparent reason.
Boy, imagine Sansa’s face. She’d hate seeing Arya already best buddies with Jon and Dany, so naturally that HAS to happen. Perhaps the population of Winterfell could all burst into spontaneous cheering at the mere sight of them, while Sansa stomps her feet and squeals, “Stop it. You’re spoiling everything”, like in Season 1.
Good grief.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I don’t know why everyone is so obsessed with pitting the women in this series against each other.
Brienne / Sansa / Dany / Arya would be an unstoppable force.
Then again we rarely get nice things in this show.
That all sounds real good and fun to me. I’m up for it! 😀
ASNAWP!
As a Brienne fan, I just want Brienne to experience inner conflict and growth, which is what any fan would want for their favourite character. Brienne’s arc has always ben one taking her away from an oaths above all else mind-set, from Jaime’s revelation about the Mad King, to her reaction towards the White Walker and ‘Fuck Loyalty’. Now she has spent the last two seasons in Sansa’s service, it is Sansa’s service she needs to have conflict with if her character wants to progress. Otherwise her character is more likely to remain static. Sansa’s curtness towards Brienne and Brienne’s own unease with some of Sansa’s decisions have on their own been leading towards a change in Brienne’s character and I want that to follow through. Besides, what’s the point of Brienne being in love with Jaime if that isn’t going to cause major tension between herself and the Starks?
ValyrianSteal,
I could certainly envisage Brienne dealing with a conflict of interest regarding her oaths and personal feelings. But I don’t see any reason why Sansa has to be devalued in order to create that conflict, as some seem to wish.
I’m not sure whether Jaime will be the cause of any conflict between the Starks either. None of the Starks appear to harbour any particular enmity towards him. The revelation that Littlefinger was the architect of the conflict between the Lannisters and the Starks probably alleviated some resentment too.
There’s still the issue of Jaime pushing Bran from the tower, but Sansa still described that as Bran’s “fall” in Season 7. So unless Jaime admits his crime or Bran randomly blurts it out, I’m not sure if the Starks will even realise that Jaime was responsible for that. I think it’d actually play better if Jaime privately apologised and Bran let him off with a “you have a part in the war to come” or “the past is written” kinda pass.
MissM,
I think it’s still a braided bun like last season but softer like a northern style to blend in more to their culture i’d Say which she in the past has being known to do when she wants to embrace another culture as she wants to show her appearance as being there to save the north not conquer it. I wouldn’t say it’s anything like Cersei’s especially considering Dany has never seen Cersei with longer hair
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
The Starks may not hate Jamie but the North definitely does, remember when Jamie was a prisoner and killed one of the northern lords son’s which eventually resulted in a large chunk of the northerners abandoning Robb which is why he had to turn to Walder Frey aka the red wedding. The North is gonna bitch about Dany when she arrives to help them, then their gonna bitch when Jamie arrives to help them because honestly lately that’s all the northern lords do.
The Starks are more likely gonna be mistrustful of Jamie because everyone knows the relationship he has with Cersei and since they’ll find she betrayed them they’ll wonder if Jamie is really on their side or if she sent him as a assassin/spy which is why his relationship with Brienne will be so important
Mel,
Even if the Northerners still harbour a grudge against Jaime and the Starks treat him with suspicion, I’d still be surprised if that gave rise to a situation in which Brienne was faced with an acrimonious choice between them.
And remember that it was one of the Karstarks that Jaime murdered and there’s not much of House Karstark left to complain about it. Plus I doubt the rest of the Northerners would be particularly eager to back them up if they did, given the Karstarks’ subsequent alignment with the Boltons.
I don’t think many in The North will be too thrilled to see Jaime turn up at Winterfell (unless it’s a Rohirrim moment), but I can’t picture a scenario where Jaime’s presence in particular causes a great divide in the alliance.
QueenofThrones:
“I feel the same way, BTW, about things like Cersei’s kids.I don’t think it actually matters that they are biologically Jaimes’ children.Robert declared them his heirs, they are his heirs by the laws of gods and men.That is, unless you literally believe that incest causes people to be evil, or that blood is magical (maybe you have a case there for Targs + Dragons I guess) there’s no justification to put those children in danger as Ned did.”
This is a very useful comment. I was not on social media during this Season but I assumed there was some discussion of Ned’s reckless behaviour. Joffrey was legally, functionally and spiritually Robert’s son and heir. To the extent possible for them both – Robert and Joffy were bonded with parent-child attachment bonds. Anyone who has parented a child that they did not biologically generate knows these ties do not depend on genetics. Ned should know that – he parented Jon and loved his foster dad, Jon. Robert declared Joffrey and his siblings to be his heirs – game over when he died. I wonder what other options Ned should have seriously considered given the certain war (with thousands dead) that would follow from his decision to betray Robert’s instructions/will and proceed to try to destroy Joffrey.
(In the books, Stannis was planning war anyway. Ned perhaps would served Robert better by opposing Stannis’ and others move to war.)
I expect Sansa and Daenerys to work together during the war. Sansa will know (from Bran account of the WW) that her army and dragon are useful. Everyone (including Arya, Jaime etc) will form a fractious union given the threat.
The crunch between them all comes after the war as the survivors think about the future. No-one will agree to hand over Westeros to the Targs – only conquest will do that for Daenerys.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Quick question: Jaime freely admitted to Catelyn that he pushed Bran out the window. Wasn’t Brienne with Cat at the time – or at least her sworn shield – so that she’d be aware of Jaime’s admission? I forget… I’d have to go back and watch those scenes again.
Ten Bears, She wasn’t present, but she knew he did horrible things. I’m surprised she didn’t ask him if he knew the Red Wedding was going to happen.