Writer George R.R. Martin speaks frankly to Vanity Fair’s Anthony Breznican in a new interview, on writing in the age of COVID and speculations on his future. House of the Dragon co-showrunner Ryan J. Condal joins the writer for a conversation full of hints and outright spoilers of things to come. Don’t worry, we’ve hidden the book spoiler stuff at the end so you can avoid it if you want to! Here are some of the interview highlights. Enjoy!
Martin tells VF, “Oddly enough, although I hate having COVID here, the two years of enforced isolation enabled me to get a lot more writing done, because I was doing a lot less traveling and public appearances and speeches and all of that stuff.[…]I’m making progress, but I’ve given up on any hope of predicting the end. Every time I do, I don’t make it and everybody gets mad at me, and there’s no sense. It’ll be done when it’s done. Hopefully, COVID won’t kill me, so we won’t have that issue. I do find it a little grisly, people speculating online about what’s going to happen to the rest of the books when I die. I don’t like to speculate about that. I don’t feel close to dying.” The writer caught COVID after SDCC, but he reassures everyone who has been predicting doom, describes minor symptoms, insists he’s “good” and that he’s only going ‘a little stir-crazy” in quarantine.
Teasing a mysterious element of the series, HOTD showunner Condal tells Vanity Fair, “I think the Game of Thrones nerds were very interested and intrigued and compelled by the secret that Viserys tells Rhaenyra, connecting Aegon [the first king of the family and the original Westeros conqueror] with the prophecies that we know about the Long Night and the Others [a.k.a. the White Walkers] and the Night King coming out of the North—and how maybe the Targaryen dynasty was aware of it long before we think they were.[…]I think they were very intrigued by that. A lot of them said I committed A Song of Ice and Fire heresy, but I did tell them: ‘That came from George.’ I reassured everybody.’
Prophecies pop up throughout the A Song of Ice and Fire series, but were used less often in Game of Thrones. While some were mentioned in earlier seasons, they fizzled out by the end. In George’s world however, they remain strong. He cites their presence in the Dunk & Egg tales, and elaborates on how they’ll play into the future of his stories, HOTD and ASOIAF.
Martin says of the prophecies’ role, “I don’t want to give too much away, because some of this is going to be in the later books, but this is 200 years before the events of Game of Thrones. There was no sell-by date on that prophecy. That’s the issue. The Targaryens that know about it are all thinking, Okay, this is going to happen in my lifetime, I have to be prepared! Or, It’s going to happen in my son’s lifetime. Nobody said it’s going to happen 200 years from now. If the Dance of the Dragons had not happened, what would’ve happened to the next generation? What would’ve happened in the generation after that? Yeah, there’s a lot to be unwound there.”
(Premiere episode spoilers)
Vanity Fair asks, “What got some of the bigger reactions at the show’s premiere?”
Condal replies, “A lot of people had things to say about the birth of Baelon, Prince Baelon.”
Martin says of the the scene, “That scene is…you don’t want to use the word ‘enjoyable’ for a scene like that, but it’s incredibly powerful. It’s visceral and it’ll rip your heart out and throw it on the floor. It has the kind of impact that the Red Wedding had. It’s a beautifully done scene of something horrible.”
Readers will know of the event Condal and Martin is referring to, but frankly Red Wedding feels like an exaggeration.
Visit Vanity Fair to read the entire complete interview, as it has a lot more goodness and interesting info!
GRRM has lost his mind. This is beyond stupid.
Very glad GRRM seems to be getting through COVID okay! I got COVID this summer and it was brutal.
I really liked this tidbit and it’s really got me interested in HotD. I think it puts more meat into why the Targaryens came (rather just them coming for power and conquest) and adds more lore wrt the Others and to the Targaryens both.
“This came from George” – interesting because I don’t seem to recall many theories from fans about connecting Targaryen invasion to White Walkers even though certain fans seem to “know it all” what twist is “surely” from GRRM and what was just “show fanfiction” and what fan theories are “almost certainly” canon (and no, I don’t mean Jon’s parentage, I mean those more obscure ones)
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I’m not sure why anyone would theorise this tbh, I didn’t have any questions about it. The Targs left Valyria before the Doom and decided to unite the 7 Kingdoms because they had dragons and they could. This prophecy seems to connect the two stories, and some people hate it. I mean, look at the first comment on this story, and Mau is a big fan of the entire show.
I don’t mind it, the Targs were deeply invested in prophecy, that’s why they left Valyria wasn’t it? One of them foresaw the Doom? And Rhaegar believed in the Prince that was Promised. I don’t think this new prophecy is necessary, but I don’t think it contradicts anything that we already know about these people
Jenny,
Oh I don’t mind this element at all. I just find it funny how some fans initially immediately labeled it ASOIAF heresy a.k.a one of those “GRRM would certainly not write that/it’s fanfiction” moments when fans believe they have everything figured out despite two novels being left unpublished… and yet this comes from GRRM himself. Kind of reminds me when GoT surpassed the novels and certain fans were all “clever” what GRRM surely wouldn’t do what the show did. I just feel with two unfinished novels, we really can’t be that sure what would or wouldn’t happen.
mau,
I’m not fond of prophecies in general so perhaps I’m prejudiced, but yeah, that doesn’t sound great.
The whitewalkers were defeated when GM ate my balls.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
I mean, there were certain things in the show that GRRM wouldn’t do, and he confirmed it himself later. Littlefinger giving Sansa to Ramsey for example. I’m pretty convinced that the whole ‘Beyond the Wall’ adventure won’t happen and wouldn’t happen in the books. But I agree that the show post S5 is full of GRRM ideas and we really can’t know for sure. I always try to keep an open mind when thinking about this stuff, i’m right more than i’m wrong, but i’m still wrong sometimes.
Regarding this prophecy, I’ve seen people theorising about The Mad King, suggesting that he became obsessed with wildfire because of the prophecy, and even referred to the WW when he said ‘burn them all’. I just looked it up and this theory was around in 2017, but it was sparked by Bran’s warging in ‘The Door’. It was during whole ‘Bran turned the King Mad’ period. I don’t mind another prophecy, but i’ve never been thrilled about this reframing of Aerys and his madness, I never needed an explanation for it, but people like to connect the dots everywhere. Those people probably won’t mind a prophecy appearing to explain things further. I do like a bit of mystery sometimes
GRRM is such a drama queen
Jenny,
Yes, there’s definitely a lot of creative freedom present in adaptations and if GRRM himself says something won’t happen in books, there’s nothing weird to say this won’t happen in books. Interesting thing regarding Littlefinger is that GRRM actually said very early on, years before S5, that if he was asked what (major?) GoT character was most different from their ASOIAF counterpart, he would say Littlefinger. He focused on the show-only line “Nobody trusts Littlefinger” and pointed out that Littlefinger in the novels is actually a person that seems very easy to trust. TV LIttlefinger is obviously very shady from S1 onwards and I think it’s quite obvious to show-only watchers that he’s not someone who you can trust. So maybe TV incarnation of Littlefinger was already different from very early on, especially as his endgame motivation proved to be nothing more but to cause pure chaos and that he ultimately didn’t care about anyone at all – for a character like this, I feel all his actions were in character for TV show. But of course, his book counterpart might be quite differently designed and it really seems so according to GRRM’s words.
Back to my original topic, we can only assume and speculate about the rest of potential plot points. Like you said, expedition beyond the Wall likely won’t happen in the novels for several potential reasons (Horn of Winter being potentially the tool to bring down the Wall, Cersei likely not being in power anymore due to Aegon). But still, I wouldn’t just outright say some “version” of this can’t happen in the novels or that the dragons can’t play a role in the fall of the Wall or such. After all, we don’t know what GRRM has in plans.
What more bothers me is when people take their speculation and expectations for granted and then rage when the story doesn’t unfold that way… like when Talisa died in S3, I remember reading multiple comments “Jeyne is alive and pregnant with Robb’s child in the novels” even though Jeyne being pregnant is just a theory and not even that likely in my opinion (kind of doesn’t sound GRRM-like) but people were immediately yelling GoT destroyed this story. Yes, Talisa dying is definitely a change from the story but there’s no guarantee Jeyne will play some major role in novels in first place.
Same with how people ultimately expected the battle against White Walkers being at the very end of the story with entire Westeros uniting or expecting White Walkers to sweep through entire Westeros with multiple major battles happening (even though that was realistically not possible with the way WW were presented in show, considering Night King was able to reanimate tens of thousands of corpses by mere move of his hand so if White Walkers advanced beyond Winterfell, their army would have been potentially millions strong when they reached King’s Landing with no army left to oppose them). Sure, it may happen differently in novels but there’s still this possibility that White Walkers may get defeated at Winterfell (hence the name “Winter Fell”) and never advance beyond that.
Same with those statements that GRRM is “obviously aiming for Targaryen restoration” and we all saw how it turned out in the show.
But the worst for me is when even GRRM confirms some stuff but people refuse to believe it because it doesn’t match in their heads. Such as Bran becoming king or Stannis burning Shireen. I remember reading a thread on Quora regarding Bran and there were multiple answers “I refuse to believe Bran becoming king is from GRRM”, not even wanting to remotely consider GRRM can “surprise us” with it. LIke this was never a story where original central character got beheaded completely humiliated (even admitting treason himself) and his son who aimed to avenge him got even more humiliating death and total defeat and there was NOTHING empowering coming from either of these deaths. How do we know GRRM can’t pull a rug under us over and over again in endgame, repeatedly crushing our hopes? This is what bothers me when fans seem to behave like they have everything figured out, even though ASOIAF/GoT has always been a chaotic story with little to no good happening to the characters.
Jenny,
Part 2 a.k.a regarding your second paragraph, I agree that some people indeed try too hard to connect the dots and want everything to be so uneccessarily complicated and twisted for the sake of being twisted. Sometimes, the truth is more straightforward than it seems and I have this feeling that even GRRM’s story may not be as complicated in endgame stages as people expect to, especially regarding magic and prophecies and such. Or maybe GRRM trying to make everythign so complicated is what is holding him back from wrapping up the story. For one, I don’t need some explicit reason for why Aerys went mad… as far as we know, he was vain and petty individual who eventually became cruel and delusional when in power, eventually losing it completely. For me, it just points out the big problematics of hereditary monarchy and one person holding such immense power. I also don’t “need” every single detail what happened in Summerhall or what Varys heard from flames when he was castrated or if dragon Cannibal is still alive on Skagos and such or if Septa Lemore is Tyene’s mother or if Sailor’s Wife is Tysha and stuff like that. Yes, it’s nice to speculate and I imagine some of these might be true but I don’t think all of this NEEDS to be revealed if it’s not in some way integral to the story itself. After all, when the story becomes too big, it becomes really hard to set it back on linear course. ANd knowing GRRM has plans to wrap everything up in only 2 novels… well, there’s no unlimited pages.
Here we go again
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Thanks for reminding me about the Wall and the Ice Dragon, the Wall will certainly fall and the Undead Dragon feels likely to me. The expedition may not happen, but I agree that those things probably will. That Episode was merely a means to an end imo. A lot of Season 7 felt like that to me unfortunately, I forgave it because they needed to set things up for S8, but it is my least favourite Season.
Interestingly, when I read the books, I pictured show Littlefinger. He really did leave an impression on me, the two are very similar in my head. But you are right, they are different. Although, I would argue that it didn’t make sense for show Littlefinger either, they really leaned into his obsession with Cat and by extension Sansa. I just don’t believe that he would give her up. That is a whole other debate though.
Yes, I think it’s fine to dislike things, and to disagree with the direction of certain characters/plots/execution (I certainly disagreed with some of it lol) but people shouldn’t get angry because their theory didn’t pan out. Especially with something like Talisa/Jeyne, that is so vague. It’s all connected to Jon being the heir to Winterfell isn’t it? There are certain things in the books that GRRM has set up that never got brought into the show, so those differences are pretty clear. Cersei being on the throne is up in the air because of Aegon, I think she will die or escape to Casterly Rock before Dany gets there, i’m pretty convinced that she will use Wildfire again, but I don’t really know, I never expected that to happen in the show. Prophecy wise, it looks like Dany’s visions/prophecies are all true, and I have a feeling that the Valonqar prophecy will pan out in the books, but I hope it isn’t Jaime or Tyrion. It never says ‘you’re younger sibling’. There has to be a twist on that, Jaime seems too obvious and I don’t know if he has it in him. I’m less certain about The Prince that was Promised, which may get some air time on HoTD.
I fully agree with your last paragraph, if GRRM confirms it, it is fact. He may have altered some things over the years, I mean, he has been working on this book for 9 (?) years, but Bran will become King for sure. There is no reason to doubt it, I am baffled by it, but I do believe it. The show did a poor job in justifying it (leaving him out for a full Season is weird in retrospect) but I think given time and development, it will make sense in the books
I thought the review embargo was supposed to end yesterday? It must be tomorrow. I’m expecting pretty positive reviews, the main ‘controversy’ seems to be this prophecy business in Episode 1, and I don’t mind that in theory
Jenny,
I just read a review on RogerEbert.com
Gave a very positive review.
Jenny,
There’s a bunch how now. There’s some positive and some negative. NY times and Rolling Stone seemed to not like it much at all. Others are mixed. So far it’s in the 70% on Rotten Tomatoes.
Mr Derp,
Yes I’ve seen some reviews today, they are mixed/positive. It’s currently at 76% on RT, but I find RT scores a bit odd for TV shows. From what I have read, I am both optimistic and concerned lol. Slower pace, more characters/dialogue, but too many Targaryens. Perhaps too much of a good thing, they may have been better utilised alongside other major Houses. But I have seen nothing that makes me think ‘oh no’. My feelings about the whole thing are pretty lukewarm because i’m not a Targ fan, but i’ll definitely watch it at some point. I might save up a few episodes, I’m not really engaged in the fandom anymore so spoilers won’t be an issue, I don’t think anyone will spoil anything here
Jenny,
Regarding Littlefinger, I myself also thought TV Littlefinger is spot-on adaptation of book Littlefinger, both in terms of outlook (except Aidan Gillen is much taller than book Littlefinger) and personality. I didn’t even think of book Littlefinger in different way but reading interviews from GRRM, I feel the two versions of the character might be more different than I originally thought. Here’s the excerpt from GRRM I was refering to above (it’s from December 3 2013)
“Book Littlefinger and television show Littlefinger are very different characters. They’re probably the character that’s most different from the book to the television show. There was a a line in a recent episode of the show where, he’s not even present, but two people are talking about him and someone says ‘Well, no one trusts Littlefinger’ and ‘Littlefinger has no friends.’ And that’s true of television show Littlefinger, but it’s certainly not true of book Littlefinger. Book Littlefinger, in the book, everybody trusts him. Everybody trusts him because he seems powerless, and he’s very friendly, and he’s very helpful. He helps Ned Stark when he comes to town, he helps Tyrion, you know, he helps the Lannisters. He’s always ready to help, to raise money. He helps Robert, Robert depends on him to finance all of his banquets and tournaments and his other follies, because Littelfinger can always raise money. So, he’s everybody’s friend. But of course there’s the Machiavellian thing. He’s, you know, everybody trusts him, everybody depends on him. He’s not a threat. He’s just this helpful, funny guy, who you can call upon to do whatever you want, and to raise money, and he ingratiaties himself with people and rises higher and higher as a result.”
GRRM gave this statement after S3 and when I think of it now, I think S3 is where this difference is firmly seen. But I’ll come to that later Some of my observations… in S1, Littlefinger might really seem the same as in the books as he has pretty much the same dialogue. But when it comes to the novels, we can kind of imagine ourselves the charisma/vibe of some character while on TV, we have more “definite” portrayal due to live actors portraying them. So I can imagine we can either imagine book Littlefinger like TV Littlefinger in first novel or like GRRM and nothing much changes due to pretty much the same role. But we also get additional scenes in S1 where his scheming nature is way more clearly seen even before Ned’s betrayal. For example, we get the show-only line regarding spies in episode 4 – “Varys’s or the queen’s?” – “No, she’s one of mine”. That’s the line that doesn’t exist in the novels and I think it already makes Littlefinger quite shady. Then we have those scenes with Varys and such.
But as much as Littlefinger has pretty much same role in S1/first novel, I feel S2 and especially S3 start to make differences regarding character GRRM described. For one, we get the “Knowledge is chaos” scene in early S2… Littlefinger pretty much subtly challenging Cersei which is something that (judging by GRRM’s description), his novel counterpart likely wouldn’t risk doing. Of course, Littlefinger has significantly fewer scenes in both book 2 and 3 compared to S2/S3 so we again see many show-only scenes where he’s quite prominently scheming. His scenes with Tyrells, his subtle threat to Ros, his scene with Tywin… in these scenes, I feel Littlefinger is not at all this “funny little man” that GRRM seems to be describing in his interview, but quite prominently a very intelligent and cunning individual that the characters around him are AWARE OF.
But the crucial scene in my opinion comes in S3. If S3 directly adapted the first half of the novel, Littlefinger would have one scene in total when he’s instructed to depart for the Vale and he wouldn’t appear again until after Joffrey’s death. On TV, we definitely see more of him, sharing scenes with Sansa, scenes with Tyrion… but most importantly, his monologue “Chaos is the ladder”. THIS is the scene that I feel defines TV Littlefinger and makes him different from book counterpart and this is also the scene why I can easily imagine Littlefinger giving Sansa away to the Boltons. During his monologue “Chaos is a ladder”, Littlefinger is in my opinion clearly hinted as one of the main antagonists of the story and if we had any doubts before, I think it’s spelled out here.
First, we see the extent of his cruelty, giving Ros to Joffrey in order for her to be brutally murdered. But what makes it stand out for me is how the camera switches to Sansa crying, watching Littlefinger leave, while Littlefinger implicitly speaks about her. “And some are given the chance to climb but they refuse… they cling to the realm… the gods… illusions…”. If he’s indeed talking about her here, I feel that as much as he seem to harbor some twisted feelings towards her, she’s nothing but a pawn to him… that every single thing he does, it’s just some sick game. Yes, he does come to rescue Sansa in S4 like in the novels, but if I remember THIS scene when he comes to rescue Sansa, I feel like “Poor girl has no idea how horrible this person really is. Every moment is just some sick game he’s playing”. Thinking of this monologue (which doesn’t exist in novels) when he gives Sansa away to the Boltons, he’s quite in character for my opinion regarding his TV counterpart.
Of course, as GRRM said, book Littlefinger is different but when I think solely of TV Littlefinger with no regards to his book counterpart, I don’t think he went out of (TV) character at all in S5, especially remembering “Chaos is the ladder” monologue.
End of my essay XD
Adrianacandle,
”I really liked this tidbit and it’s really got me interested in HotD. I think it puts more meat into why the Targaryens came (rather just them coming for power and conquest) and adds more lore wrt the Others and to the Targaryens both.”
From what I know second-hand about Targ lore, it seemed there has been no explanation (yet) why Rhaegar would be so reckless as to run off with a hot-headed man’s fiancé, knowing full well that grievously insulting the powerful Baratheon and Stark families would surely embroil the realm in some kind of sh*tstorm. Even before then, Rhaegar could not have been so clueless as to think he could humiliate his own wife in public and hit on a teenage girl by crowning her his Queen of Love and Beauty without causing an uproar. .Also, wasn’t Rhaegar aware that his firebug dad was becoming progressively unstable?
Wasn’t there something in the books about Rhaegar reading something that bummed him out, and foretold (?) that he’d have to put his music career on hold and become a warrior? And his obsession with a prophecy (?) about the dragon needing a third head so he’d have to knock up someone to sire a third child; and (sorry – I forget the details) something about the Prince That Was Promised descending from a Targ lineage?
In the absence of any explanation from GRRM for Rhaegar’s behavior, I had wondered if studious Rhaegar had stumbled upon some ancient but accurate prophecies that convinced him he had to pursue these reckless courses of action, even if it caused the realm to erupt in bloody civil war, and even though he and his sweetheart would lose their lives along with many of their family members – because the very survival of the human race depended on it.
(One of my many discarded tinfoil theories was that he “heard” Bran’s disembodied voice from the future tell him about the coming Zombie Apocalypse, and advise him that if mankind had any hope of survival, it was imperative for Rhaegar to run off with and impregnate a Stark girl.)
Are there any fan theories that provide a rational explanation for Rhaegar’s behavior? Lots of people were loyal to him and held him in high regard, right? He wasn’t just a hormone-drenched twit who would be oblivious to the potentially disastrous consequences of pursuing and eloping with Robert’s bride-to-be.
However, a solid conviction that billions will die in 20 years unless tens of thousands die now, might provide some justification for what looked to everyone like selfish, self-destructive actions on his part. And he had to figure nobody would believe his “logic” if he tried to explain it.
P.S.
Did GRRM show up at your place unannounced after Comic Con, and insist that you tell him how he could tie up loose ends in TWOW’s various storylines and provide satisfying conclusions?
It sure would be nice if HotD hints at answers to questions about future Targs’ seemingly self-destructive behavior.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
”How do we know GRRM can’t pull a rug under us over and over again in endgame, repeatedly crushing our hopes?”
A: Because there is no rug. There is no endgame.
The New York Jets’ season opener is in three weeks. If he doesn’t finish TWOW between now and kickoff, he never will. He’ll be preoccupied with the NY Jets, the NY Giants, and his Targaryen vanity projects.
Ten Bears,
Until GRRM reveals what happened, I can’t answer any of those questions and I’m not sure if some of these scenarios (ie. Rhaegar seemingly being reckless) were really the case until we know more. But again, Ten Bears, I really really do encourage you to read the books! 🙂
Well, it does seem that Rhaegar did have plans to do something about his father:
Jaime I, AFFC
The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring, The World of Ice and Fire
And there are theories to this end, theories that I think have support, in which Rhaegar did plan to overthrow his father.
As for Rhaegar’s focus on TPTWP prophecy, I think the revelation that the Targaryens came to Westeros in knowledge of the Others would tie into some of that but we still don’t know like, 90% of the story here when it comes to Rhaegar.
I think we eventually will know more and I really do think we will see TWOW. I do think GRRM has an endgame in mind but I think the journey to get there is difficult.
Adrianacandle,
So sorry Adriana, about you having THAT virus. I do hope you are feeling better. I’ve known a few people who’ve had it since the restrictions eased though as they’ve been oldies like me they’ve been double and triple jabbed which seems to have helped them pull through.
Erik, formerly Lord Parramandas,
Wasn’t book Jeyne (book Robb’s wife) being supplied with ‘moon tea’ – something to prevent pregnancy or destroy pregnancy by her mother in the books? Although Jeyne just thought it was an ordinary infusion.
As for folk wondering about married Rhaegar running off with Lyanna. The attraction between them could have been a coup de foudre. In the show ‘the knight of the laughing tree’ was relegated to the bluerays but in the novels Meera tells the story and I think the reader is supposed to infer that Lyanna was the ‘knight’ and that Rhaegar discovered the knight’s identity and was impressed with her. I’m assuming people are au fait with the story of the knight of the laughing tree.
Dame of Mercia,
Coup de foudre: “a sudden unforeseen event, in particular an instance of love at first sight.”
Ooh, I like that! A French term for love at first sight. I’ll have to ask my sister how to pronounce it.
Now lemme go look up “au fait.”
Thanks, Dame!
Ten Bears,
I wasn’t trying to use French terms unnecessarily, TB*. Those terms are in fairly common usage in British English. To be ‘au fait’ with something means to be aware of it, to have a good knowledge of it – but you’ve probably looked it up by now.
* I try not to humblebrag because a) I don’t have much to humblebrag about and b) on the odd occasion I may have done so (even if unconsciously) I’ve well and truly put my foot in it.
I’m reading this after the premiere but does this essentially confirm that Jon is indeed the Prince who was promised based on the line of dialogue in HotD? It certainly sounded like it and it matches to what is being built up in ASOIF and was teased in GOT.
Jon Snowed,
I’m fairly confident it was confirming that Jon was the prince that was promised. He is the great uniter, his whole story was bringing people together to face a common cause.
I was thinking about this and the PTWP could just as easily be Arya since she’s the one who actually killed the NK.
D&D didn’t seem to like prophecies. They kind of muddied the waters on most of them. To me, the PTWP isn’t one actual person, it was a combo of people (Jon, Arya, etc).
Mr Derp,
i’d be ok with the stark family being the prince/princesses that were promised since the stark family defeated the threats from ice and fire
I don’t think the prophecy is really about the one who deals the final blow – we don’t even know if there will be a Night King as such in the books. For me the HotD prophecy was really GRRM stating that the Prince who is promised is really about uniting everyone for the great fight against the undead and that will be Jon the remaining books even if it plays out a little different than the show. Most likely Jon will bring Dany North though I suspect as I cannot see any other character except possibly Tyrian being able to persuade her.