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Game Of Owns: Oathbreaker

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Episode 327 – Oathbreaker
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Jon Snow is back. The episode following our long trip Home was fated to live in comparison, but the former did not feature Arthur Dayne..

Let’s dive in, team.


Discussion Topics
Feelings of joy
Jon rises
A tower in Dorne
Arya and No One
Behind Varys’ curtain
Tommen vs. High Sparrow
A Stark in Winterfell
Dany’s not worried
Owns of the Episode



Half you were right. They did not let us in the Tower.

Not yet.


goo3272

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Game of Owns

68 Comments

  6. Nick Hartley,

    Ghost showed up very briefly at the beginning of the episode, I believe. Right after Jon sits up and Davos walks in. But yeah, they’re picking their spots with the direwolves. Perhaps we’ll see more of him now that we have one less direwolf to spend money on …

    I’m sorry, that was too soon.

  7. I am compelled to point this out:

    Dolorous Edd

    dōlərəs = “feeling or expressing a great sorrow or distress”

    Doh-loh-russ. Like Homer Simpson saying “Doh”.

    Not “Dahl-oh-russ”. Not “Duh-lore-ez” like “Dolores” the female name.

    “DOH-luh-rus”

  10. Owen Teale is a great actor. He was the perfect Allister Thorne and actually made me kind of respect the character… I hate him! But I respect his badassness. Teale seems like such a stand up dude when it comes to fans too.

    I thought Jon might not excecute Olly either but when he did I mayyy have said out loud or thought “For the watch you little sh*t!” I can’t remember.

    Other thoughts: Need more ToJ!! Young Ned didn’t disappoint. He did a pretty good job trying to match Sean Bean’s accent. And I don’t know if anyone else thought this but I swear they mixed a baby cry in there with Lyanna’s scream.

    What else… Oh yeah, goddamn it Shaggydog!!!! I’m so sick of Ramsay. Jon needs to kill him asap before I throw something at my monitor lol. I also thought the Arya sequence was one of her best scenes yet. Ahh I loved the bit about The Hound!! I was so happy when he was brought up. Nice to hear Arya’s real thoughts about him. I felt like that was a little bit of closure for her. I totally hugged my dog Sandor after that. This season is amazing so far. Can’t wait to see more… Then binge watch it all again! 😀

  11. Dosh Khaleen. I think Owns is missing the point. It’s all about identity. What is Dany’s identity (the theme of the season). I loved the high priestess calling Dany on her titles bull. Yeah baby, we were all going to rule the world next to our great khal. Slashing and burning her way out of Vaes Dothrak is not the point. She’s done that already in Slavers’ Bay, and it didn’t last a generation. She has to learn another way. She has to learn how to make allies beyond individuals in awe of her (like the One Who Drinks And Knows Things tried to tell her last season).

  12. I’ve been thinking about the Rickon situation… I think it’s likely that he dies, but also think that’s not the Umbers’ intention. I think they could be in a situation where they think the Boltons are the lesser of two evils when it comes to a Wildling army. I think they have sworn fealty to Rickon and that is why they wouldn’t do so to Ramsay. But to assure Ramsay they would back them/WF, they handed him over because “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” If/When Rickon dies, I could see them being like, that wasn’t part of the plan. Then they see Ramsay for the “mad dog” he is and that is what triggers them to turn on the Boltons… and perhaps by that point they also realize Jon and the Wildlings aren’t just terrorizing the North, but actually have a legitimate agenda. Not a smart plan the Umbers are executing, but I could see it playing out similarly.

  13. OK since the HBO people are cracking down on the Spanish insider on the Episodes to come for eatch Sunday we need some one who is in the time zone where it is sat for the rest of us and Sunday for them so they can tell us what goes on but only post it on here or do a massive email send for people who want to know by getting a direct link to where what is going on in that episode . cuz i like to know what goes on in a episode before my friends and family cuz it makes me feel like i have a dirty little secret lol . or just provide a link to where in the country live stream the tv channel to witch it comes on and again send it threw email or put it on here .

  15. NinaD,
    I’d love Dany to tell the High Priestess Widow of Khal Savo, ‘You want to achieve greatness? It’s not too late. Ditch this place. Follow ME.’ And for that old, sad woman to accept and get a second lease on life.

    Sadly, I think she’ll reject the offer… being like Thorne to Dany’s Jon.

    …unrelatedly, I also hope that Sansa does not arrive at Castle Black yet and that the shot of the gates opening from the trailer is purposefully misleading. I want her to start the Rebellion while Jon broods for an episode. He can join up an episode later. (Like Luke to Sansa’s Leia ?.)

  16. Jared,

    I think the directors did missed a great opportunity at the end of the episode. They could have had Jon walk off with Ghost next to him. Would have made a great visual shot.

  17. Yaga: I want her to start the Rebellion while Jon broods for an episode.

    Honestly, I have a feeling that the Sansa that arrives at Castle Black is not there yet in her mind to start a rebellion. Her first goal was clearly to be safe with Jon (saved by man again, yawn). I think it’s not until she learns of Ramsays threats towards Jon and Rickon that she starts to become active because she realizes that there is no safety in this world anymore (not even at the edge of the world that is the Wall) and that she has to fight for it herself. I think that’s when she goes on her mission and finally irreversibly changes her perspective.

  18. Lord Stoneheart:
    I’ve been thinking about the Rickon situation… I think it’s likely that he dies, but also think that’s not the Umbers’ intention. I think they could be in a situation where they think the Boltons are the lesser of two evils when it comes to a Wildling army. I think they have sworn fealty to Rickon and that is why they wouldn’t do so to Ramsay. But to assure Ramsay they would back them/WF, they handed him over because “there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” If/When Rickon dies, I could see them being like, that wasn’t part of the plan. Then they see Ramsay for the “mad dog” he is and that is what triggers them to turn on the Boltons… and perhaps by that point they also realize Jon and the Wildlings aren’t just terrorizing the North, but actually have a legitimate agenda. Not a smart plan the Umbers are executing, but I could see it playing out similarly.

    I hate to say it, but I do think that Rickon will die. Unfortunately. I have noticed alot of people say that it wasn’t ShaggyDog’s head because it looked to dark and small, but as to it being dark the blood would make it darker and the look on Rickon’s face when it was slapped down on the table was full of hate. I think Smalljon made it clear that he is only at WF because of the Wildlings. He needs someone to help him fight them, not that he wants or intends to pledge fealty to Ramsay. I am really looking forward to “what comes next.”

  19. Hi all, I need help finding a set pic. It’s one where we see

    tons of dead Umber soldiers piled up against other supporters of Boltons. Probably the aftermath of Ramsay vs Jon.

    To me this is proof that Smalljon is truly siding with Ramsay and that smalljon was being truthful with us last episode.

    Does anyone have this set pic? I saw it posted here months ago but can’t find it.

  21. Tbh this is what I expected happened, eg books have 3 on 7 and only Ned and Howland survive, Ned says Howland saved his life etc

    Going by Knight of Laughing Tree, Howland obviously wasn’t ever a master fighter, more than that, looking at how the Crannogmen fight, eg besieging Moat Cailin by hiding in cover and shooting poisonous darts at the Ironborn,

    The guy lives and is the boss of a Predator rich Swamp land basically, they live for cover and play by the rules of deep cunning and there isn’t much place for Southron honour traditions in those parts, and he won’t care as he’s still breathing and that he managed to outwit a Kingsuarg

    It’s also worth mentioning this was a lot like when Podrick killed the KG who was attempting to kill Tyrion

    It’s great though because it shows the disconnect between the romantic ideas people get about past events – most of it forged in their imaginations, don’t think Ned or Howland would have ever talked about it – and the brutal reality

    Seems to be a theme about “not everything is what it seems”

  22. Wylie,

    Nothing wrong with being “saved”. Though in this case it was Brienne

    For mine there is Arya and Brienne to be the action-hero female, but Lady Cat and Sansa IMO are for different expressions of female strength, which like Elizabeth and Mary Queen of Scots are as a Matronly figurehead.

    This is actually quite powerful as a lot of people can be bent to their will, eg looking at the Alayne chapters it is becoming increasingly clear Sansa can get Sweetrobin at least to do her bidding and of course Lady Cat has the once noble minded BwB hanging people from every tree

    A bit unfortunate that a lot of people think women and female show characters are lacking if they aren’t stabby action-hero Tomboys

    People have been set up to “pity” her mistreatment but I actually expect Sansa to be the second most powerful female after Dany, but rather quite dark

    As for the show, I think she will be merged with Rickons book arc, but I reckon Jon and Sansa will be happy just to meet up again at this point and perhaps don’t feel getting Winterfell back is feasible at this time, I think it is Davos and Mel that start egging them on

  24. Read a GNC editorial on the WIC and got an inspiration to write a little song. Its not directly connected to this topic, so sorry for the inconvenience, but cant refrain from posting it also here 🙂

    “Perhaps not the right place, but read this thread got really hyped, had to write deep from my heart
    Wrote it quick and not on my mothertounge, sorry for the errors but hope you have some fun 🙂

    A Lamentation of the Wolf

    Wind blew swift, like arrow fast
    Form down south far, it heard be must
    The wind cold came, brought dark words
    Of treachery beyond this world

    All stood still, it can not be
    Who would done such thing to thee
    Young our Wolf and his all pack
    slain amidst the wedding night

    Old men said
    To comet red the meat must be fed
    All stood good, than silent dead
    They should have known the should have seen
    The treachery that lies between the Twins

    Amid the war, they swore to wed
    To pass the river the love must be down laid
    On Kingdoms road the rotten corps lie
    No tears for slain, no sound of cry

    The traitors laugh red blood stained
    The music played above their head
    Not moments passed and they were dead
    Bellies pierced, the throats open wide
    The King slain down beside his bride
    Mother cried she fought and swear
    But all was lost, all in vein
    Starks, Umbers, Manderlys, noble is Lannisters pray

    Who could known, who could tell
    Kingdom crushed in single sway

    Golden crown, the one of bronze
    Jewels, and diamonds beyond mens cost
    Ancient crown, the one made anew
    Death takes all, the words are true.

    But love is what, unchainded beast
    That crushes stones beneath our feet
    The towers fall the wall fall too
    Escape love, can hope just a fool

    Alas,
    Those who saw and those who are still
    Tell us of that mockery
    Those that rot, those slain dead
    To Old gods turn their choped of heads

    Revenge they want, they yearn for blood
    Head for head, eye for eye
    The dead cant rest, the Gods cant too
    Freys and Boltons we come for you”

  25. Wylie,
    Ghosts Lunch,
    The keyword is, in my mind, ‘self-determination’. Sansa, right now, is, for the first time in her life, the person in charge in her little group. The person making the call. The moment she finds herself in Jon’s presence, let’s face it, she won’t be. In-universe because he’s a guy, the former Commander, just recently resurrected and all that, and in-narrative because he’s a more important protagonist than she is. So, the only way I can see her starting to make her decisions is to delay their meeting a couple of episodes, until she stands on her own.

    But hey, I’m probably mistaken.

  26. Yaga,

    But Yaga, Jon is very lost and confused after coming back. Sansa in a similar way that she did with Theon can focus him and remind him what needs to be done. Strength and leadership comes in many guises.

  27. Episode 2 ratings : 7.29
    Episode 3 ratings : 7.28

    Jon’s resurrection didn’t attracted new viewers apparently…

  29. Redxgod:
    Jared,

    I think the directors did missed a great opportunity at the end of the episode. They could have had Jon walk off with Ghost next to him. Would have made a great visual shot.

    They always seem to miss when it comes to the Direwolf connections. Here we have Jon, who is supposed to be extremely attuned and attached to Ghost, and vice versa, simply walk away. And Ghost is nowhere during his initial return to the masses, or at the end. Either its budget or they simply are cat people. Who knows why. The wolves are loved by fans and get little time or purpose in the show. Would have been nice to see them surround Ramsey in the end for a little payback. But not to be.

  35. Yaga,

    Ah I get you a bit now

    Not sure I quite agree regarding the power dynamic, eg Sansa is trueborn and Jon right as the end of E3 would probably be more inclined to be a free folk and farm the Gift but I guess we’ll have to see, after seeing what happened with Dorne, Ellaria and Sand Snakes….

    Not sure it’ll really be an issue, eg they’ll be more concerned about Rickons welfare I reckon, plus I reckon Mel and Davos will do the egging on as I said, I think Jon and Sansa are both bewildered atm following both of their experiences and there is a clean slate ahead of them

    Davos is used to corralling Bannermen for Stannis’s cause, so he’ll be right on it, I actually reckon even Mel will be following his lead for a time as Mel is perhaps a bit like Jon and Sansa and bewildered in her own way (things weren’t as they seemed, a theme affecting Bran)

  44. Dee,

    As with most of these titles they fit with all the story lines. Broken man could be Theon, Loras, The Hound, Jorah, Hodor, Bran?

    Plenty of options.

  48. Lord Stoneheart,

    Interesting, but it matches what the NW did to Jon, he got knifed literally and now the Umbers have knifed Rickon in the back metaphorically and Shaggydog literally

    I reckon the Umbers are legitimately opposed to the Starks and there’s no going back after killing a Direwolf

    People keep thinking it’s a double-cross, I’m hoping we see that from the Manderly’s

  50. Game Of Owns – I’m not sure if there was some confusion on your part regarding the scene with Qyburn and the kid with the black eye, but to me it seems like Qyburn found out that the kid’s dad was beating him and his mother up so Qyburn had the kid’s dad eliminated and now the kid spies for him.

  51. Three-eyed cockblocker, amirite?

    But for real-Von Sydow has more gravitas in his stool than most actors muster on a lifetime.

    Also-is “put on a boat to pentos” the ASOIAF equivalent to when you parents took your old dog to a “farm in the country?”

  52. Sword of the Morning Dawn

    As anyone ever considered that Ned did not take Dawn back to Starfall, but instead took the sword back to Winterfell and placed it in Lyanna’s crypt???? Perhaps this a part of the promise that Lyanna made Ned swear to.

  53. NinaD,

    AGREED – SHE IS VERY ARROGANT.
    Passie,

    But she did say Jon was a half brother. The waif smacked her on every lie besides that one. But again Arya doesn’t know it is a lie, so there fore sounds true. Oh SO CRAZY. HANDS UP IF YOU THINK ARYA WILL BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THE WAIF?

  54. Okay so hearing you guys talk about the ToJ and if how Dane was killed changes our opinion of Ned…. While watching the episode, the moment where Ned kills Hightower the angle was very similar to when Jamie killed Jorey in season 1… Which then lead me to think about how the rest of the fight between Ned and Jaime played out. Ned was wounded from behind by a member of Jamie’s entourage. Later when Tywin scolded Jamie for not finishing off Ned when he had the chance Jamie replied “It wouldn’t have been ‘clean'”…. Anyways, is Jamie a more honorable fighter than Ned? Am I grasping at straws? lol

  55. I think the title “Oathbreaker” can also relate to Samwell – He made the oath to Gilly “Wherever you go, I go” and now tells her he’s dropping her off at Horn Hill to leave to the Citadel.

  56. Ghosts Lunch: Nothing wrong with being “saved”.

    I’m not talking about her being saved by Brienne from the hunters, I’m talking about her thinking that she would be safe with Jon. Nothing is wrong with needing saving and nothing is wrong with needing support in dire situations. But, Sansa’s always relied on or dreamt of men “saving” her (marrying Loras to escape KL, LF) due to her coping system which was the fairy tales of good knights and valiant princes and her self-image as a traditional noble lady.

    The point of my comment was that Jon alone cannot save her from what is happening around her (neither could Loras or LF) and that she needs to realize that if she connects with her true self and accepts her responsibility as a Stark to her family, her culture and her country, she can be the one to safe others and while doing so also safe herself (well, hundreds of soldiers will probably die in the battle, but you get the gist 🙂 )

  57. Yaga,

    I can see your point in-narrative and in-universe. If the meeting is next week, they’ll probably try to develop them both equally during their interactions, like they did last season with Theon.

    I mean, you’re right, Jon is a bigger protagonist, but he seems quite down at the moment, which is interesting. Imagine how surprised Sansa will be to meet that broken man instead of the valiant Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch who she seemed to think can easily protect her from Ramsay.

    So I guess that’s a good start for her to realize that it’s not going to be easy and that she is needed and that she has to stay on top of things and be a part of decision making process.

    Maybe something like that? 🙂

  58. thronedorne:
    Okay so hearing you guys talk about the ToJ and if how Dane was killed changes our opinion of Ned…. While watching the episode, the moment where Ned kills Hightower the angle was very similar to when Jamie killed Jorey in season 1… Which then lead me to think about how the rest of the fight between Ned and Jaime played out. Ned was wounded from behind by a member of Jamie’s entourage. Later when Tywin scolded Jamie for not finishing off Ned when he had the chance Jamie replied “It wouldn’t have been ‘clean’”…. Anyways, is Jamie a more honorable fighter than Ned? Am I grasping at straws? lol

    Jaime was being a prick with Ned…his entire assault on him outside LF’s brothel was dishonourable…Tywin and in a later season even Cersei were annoyed at him for that. Jaime with his sister, with Bran (not just throwing him, even tryna assassinate him and encouraging euthanizing him afterwards), killing his cousin – always been an idiot…even after his change he still hasn’t redeemed himself enough for me.

    With Dayne, it’s Howland who stabbed him in the back, not Ned. Ned didn’t tell him to, he was sort of resigned to his fate.

    Besides, Ned was saving his sister from (what is thought to be) a kidnapping – getting the job done in any way possible in killing a guy who is trying to ‘kill you’ to prevent you from your kidnapped sister makes sense.

    Though I don’t think bad about Dayne for that (preventing Ned from Lyanna) – he was bound by oath to Rhaegar, plus it was war.

    Anyway, all Ned did was pick up the sword and finish him off after he was already dying – well he saved him the suffering, dunno why that’s a problem – even if it is he didn’t stab him in the back! The rest of his life; whilst being Robert’s Hand, refusing to have Danaerys murdered, ordering Gregor Clegane & Tywin’s arrest etc., – one moment of what might be slight dishonour can’t overshadow that….not forgetting he didn’t really do the stabbing…Howland did!!!

    As for Ned lying about heroically killing Dayne….I don’t think he has ever gone around lying and showing off about it. A far as I understand from awoiaf, Dayne’s death had unclear circumstances – bookreaders can confirm.

  59. JoeSnow:
    I think the title “Oathbreaker” can also relate to Samwell – He made the oath to Gilly “Wherever you go, I go” and now tells her he’s dropping her off at Horn Hill to leave to the Citadel.

    I’m surprised no one is relating it to the scene with Greatjon Umber and Robb…’Oathbreaker!’ is what Robb said Greatjon would be if he left him….then he decides not to…but now it’s his son who it seems has become one

  60. Yes, I thought that I heard a faint baby’s squeal from the tower just after the woman’s scream.

    Secondly, there’s a moment when Osha gives Rickon one of her significant looks, just after Umber gave Ramsay his name. And I didn’t see anger at the end, I saw defiance. I reckon that Umber is putting Osha and Rickon on the inside in a big set-up.

  61. TSWMTW,

    TSWMTW: Jaime was being a prick with Ned…his entire assault on him outside LF’s brothel was dishonourable…Tywin and in a later season even Cersei were annoyed at him for that.

    With Dayne, it’s Howland who stabbed him in the back, not Ned. Ned didn’t tell him to, he was sort of resigned to his fate.

    I just feel like there are more parallels to the two sittuations then you admit. You mention Ned just trying to save his sister, but the confrontation outside the brothel was in response to Ned’s wife kidnapping Tyrion “My brother Stark… I want him back”.. Also, you’re right Ned didn’t stab Dane in the back, but Jamie wasn’t the one that speared Ned from behind either. Dane was clearly no longer a threat to Ned’s mission after Howlland had stabbed him. No way he could have prevented them from rescuing Lyanna at that point. And granted it could be looked at as “putting him out of his misery”… Finally no, Ned never proclaimed he was some kind of amazing hero for defeating the great Sword of the Morning, but isn’t he essential lying by omission by not setting the record straight and telling the whole story?

  63. thronedorne:
    TSWMTW,

    I just feel like there are more parallels to the two sittuations then you admit. You mention Ned just trying to save his sister, but the confrontation outside the brothel was in response to Ned’s wife kidnapping Tyrion “My brother Stark… I want him back”..
    …
    … Finally no, Ned never proclaimed he was some kind of amazing hero for defeating the great Sword of the Morning, but isn’t he essential lying by omission by not setting the record straight and telling the whole story?

    Good points.
    But Tyrion’s and Lyanna’s situation weren’t remotely as serious as each other…and Lady Cat only kidnapped Tyrion cos she thought he was responsible for Bran…which Jaime didn’t admit to. Besides, Ned had nothing to do with the kidnapping. The enormity of the situation at ToJ and Jaime’s brawl don’t match.

    Re Ned ‘lying by omission’…I really don’t know how the books explain Ned’s telling of that so I dunno.

    Anyway, I just noticed your original question was about the more ‘honourable fighter’ not honourable in general, as for their characters there’s no question, but fighting we’ve only seen about 2 fights for each of them so I dunno – from them alone I can’t agree with you as I’ve pointed out above…

    I think I just won’t agree anyway, I just hate all Lannisters too much (except Tyrion of course)!! LOL!!!

  64. thronedorne: isn’t he essential lying by omission by not setting the record straight and telling the whole story?

    It is called dissembling: and, yes, he is. However, the truth would bring dishonor on the man who saved his life, Howland Reed. Of course, Reed was in a no-win situation: he had seconds to save Ned: and if Ned was his liege-lord, then Reed’s oaths would have been to do anything to save Ned from harm. What kind of liege-lord shames his liegeman like that? What kind of friend does that?

    Now, of course, the honor codes all assume that Reed was supposed to save Ned honorably because morality systems like codes of honor never take into account “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situations.

    So, Ned had a choice between dishonorable courses: live with the untruth, or shame his friend and liegeman. Either way, he loses. In other words, just another day in Martinverse.

    (Good thing that nothing else challenged Ned’s morality that day: otherwise, he probably would have been having nightmares about it years later…..)

  65. Ashara: Yes, I thought that I heard a faint baby’s squeal from the tower just after the woman’s scream.

    I thought that I heard a baby cry, myself.

    Ashara: I reckon that Umber is putting Osha and Rickon on the inside in a big set-up.

    If it was a setup, then they would not have decapitated Shaggy Dog.

    Seriously, this is rapidly becoming another “Jon was in Ghost” or “Stannis and Myrcella are still alive” or “Gendry is the handsome young man.” People keep trying to make things complicated that do not need to be. Instead, we should be asking a different question: what are the Umbers going to do once they learn that the Wildlings have just invaded Westeros en masse? And what are they going to do to the little brother of the man who let them invade? The show has bent over backwards to show us why the Northerners hate and fear the Wildlings. You don’t hang a gun that prominently without firing it in some way: and the Umbers’ “betrayal” is the first shot from that gun.

  66. Wimsey:
    Now, of course, the honor codes all assume that Reed was supposed to save Ned honorably because morality systems like codes of honor never take into account “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situations.

    So, Ned had a choice between dishonorable courses: live with the untruth, or shame his friend and liegeman.Either way, he loses.In other words, just another day in Martinverse.

    (Good thing that nothing else challenged Ned’s morality that day: otherwise, he probably would have been having nightmares about it years later…..)

    No, you’re absolutely right about Ned being more honorable “over all” than Jamie. The point I was trying to make(perhaps poorly) is that as the show has progressed and we’ve gotten to see more and more of each of the characters that they might turn out to be a closer on the “morality continuum” than first appeared…

    It’s been pretty obvious that they’ve been showing us more redeemable qualities of Jamie since he lost his hand, however I think(especially after reading Isaac’s interviews yesterday) that we might get to see a few of Ned’s “negative” actions from the past as well.

  67. Wimsey: It is called dissembling: and, yes, he is.

    ha… not to be a stickler, but dissembling deals with concealing your intentions which isn’t the case here. His intentions to rescue his sister were always pure and unquestioned…. lying by admission is when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes failing to correct pre-existing misconceptions.

    =P

  68. TSWMTW: I think I just won’t agree anyway, I just hate all Lannisters too much (except Tyrion of course)!! LOL!!!

    Hahah that’s okay… I was really just playing devils advocate for the sake of conversation. I appreciate the response and input!

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