On our next episode, a podcast will meet for more spoils of war — now with the perspective of extra days and secondary viewings. Needless to say, there are things that must be discussed.
After the cut you’ll find three questions we’ve asked ourselves, and will be disputing as the show records. Eastwatch is next!
Listen to “The Spoils of War” here.
What do you believe?
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
That’s it. Let us know what and why in the comments below! Make sure to listen for your thoughts, theories, and input once this episode is released.
1. It is possible the White Walkers draw those symbols because they represent some astronomical phenomenon that brings on the long winter… perhaps they were made around the time this symbol was being drawn.
I can’t answer the other questions since I either know (via spoilers) or have a good idea based on what I know.
I think The Golden Company might say, “Fighting dragons?! Nah, we’re good. Thanks for your interest.”
Hodor!
1. They’re pictures of the night sky, embellished by artistry. Maybe religious, if they worshiped sky gods or were into astrology.
2. The Dothraki will fish Jamie and Bronn out of the water, at Tyrion’s command.
Bronn is offered a chance to switch sides. He takes it.
Jamie becomes Dany’s hostage (and Tyrion commits treason for love by releasing Jamie).
Lord Tarley is (hopefully) dead.
Dickon becomes the new Lord Tarly, and when he inevitably dies, Sam will become the new Lord Tarly and Warden of the South (because the Night’s Watch won’t exist by the end of the series), marries Gilly and lives in his family home.
Dany (hopefully) gets armor, and Ser Jorah arrives to become her military advisor (because Tyrion sucks at it) and figures out what to do about the ballistas.
3. It doesn’t matter. Dany finds out that Ser Davos has a pirate friend, Salvador Sann, whom she hires to waylay the gold on its way back to Braavos, it being Cersei’s risk of delivering it there to the Iron Bank. Cersei won’t get any more funds since she can’t pay off the loan. So, no Golden Company.
One is tempted to interpret the spiral symbol the same way that spirals have been used in nature-centric Pagan cultures in the real world for millennia: as cosmic symbols of the ever-renewing life cycle, the unity of time, the simultaneity and interdependence of creative and destructive energy. Trace a spiral to its center and you find yourself tracing it back outwards again. It’s a pattern that recurs throughout the natural world, from flowers to seashells to galaxies.
If the showrunners decide to have it signify something completely different, I for one will find it confusing, since this is a symbol that has been powerfully infused with meaning for ages. Unless they are trying to convey that the WWs/Others have co-opted a benign symbol for their own nefarious purposes, as the Nazis did with the originally positive symbol of the swastika.
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I think this use of spiral patterns by the WW is totally a show thing – I recall no references to it at all in the books. So we have no clue what the author intended by it, if anything.
The most intreaguing thing about the paintings was that the Night King had a beard and it implies that there was another Night King during the first War for the Dawn. Presumably that Night King was defeated and killed but now another one emerged. And this opens a lot pf possibilities: if the Night King can be replaced by another WW and if WW are converted humans the third Night King may be one of the protagonists of the story though I am not a fan of this idea.
1. No idea. But I am somewhat uneasy about them. Not so fond of plots involving mysticism.
2. Can’t see how Jaime will avoid being taken prisoner.
3. If I understand correctly, the Golden Company are mercenaries but not Daario’s ones, right? It could be, as previously stated, that they pass on this glorious opportunity of getting barbecued. But I kind of believe that this is not really Tycho Nestoris. He seems quite different than the Tycho who met with Stannis. Maybe he’s a faceless man? I have no idea why would they have a faceless man tricking Cersei out of her gold.
Arya will be the one taking out LF, as soon as she finds out by her medium of a brother his role in Ned’s death. Speaking of LF, could someone please give him an arc this season instead of having him sliming up all over Winterfell?
Nah, the Hound is the medium of informing on LF’s betrayal of Ned. And Sansa is the one who must condemn him.
1. I don’t think we will ever find out what the significance of those drawings are. Like Stonehenge, it will be lost to the ages.
2. Thinking Jaime will be held captive for a council between Dany and Cercei.
3. Qyburn is in league with Varys. What can Varys do for Dany? His little birds are in Qyburn’s nest. The Dorn and Highgarden allies he provided are gone. There is no whispers for him to pass on to Dany. He and Qyburn are committing a Double Cross here to place someone in the Golden Company on the throne.
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
This is something I would love to understand but ultimately have no clue about. Perhaps they are patterns that are of particular religious significance? The Children worshiped the Old Gods – is it maybe something to do with the formation of a grove of weirwoods somewhere? Or a reflection of the way the standing stones we saw in The Door were laid out?
Maybe the patterns – when deciphered – give an indication of how to defeat the White Walkers? Or foreshadow some sort of future event?
Sidebar: I loved the cave scene – the juxtaposition of the dragonglass and the First Men just felt like a huge symbolic reflection of Jon himself. The dragonglass of this old Valyrian outpost, at the ancestral home of House Targaryen, merged with the drawings of the First Men – the blood of which flows in the veins of House Stark.
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
I don’t believe Jaime is dead. Either someone will get him away from the battlefield without Dany (and perhaps Tyrion) noticing and he will return to KL and Cersei, or he will be taken back to Dragonstone as a prisoner. I think Bronn will suffer the same fate – I’m pretty sure it was him that forced Jaime out of the path of Drogon’s fire and into the water.
Bronn is a sellsword and has survived thus far by picking the winning side. After this battle, I would say Daenerys looks a reasonable bet. I doubt any of the men who survive this battle will want to go up against dragonfire again in a hurry. I would like to see Tyrion stand surety in some way for Bronn. Given we got that callback to their time in the Vale in season one back in The Queen’s Justice, it would be a cool parallel to have Tyrion standing up for Bronn to repay him for agreeing to be Tyrion’s champion.
As for the Tarlys, I’m not overly fussed about Randyll. I’d like to think he was one of those incinerated by the dragonfire. Dickon, on the other hand, is a much more interesting character and they’ve really given him more layers this season. He is a far more rounded character than he was in the dinner scene in Blood of my Blood last season, when he mostly seemed to find Sam a bit of a joke. I’d like to hope that Dickon survived, and that he will bend the knee.
It really wasn’t clear of the four of them who lived and died, but if anyone survived it is Jaime. He has too much plot armor to stop his Lannister armor drowning him for good. I can see a lot of Jaime’s troops bending the knee here, though, if the alternative is death by Drogon. So while Cersei has the gold to pay back the Iron Bank, she may need to take up Tycho’s investment offer to recruit new troops.
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
The Golden Company are Essosi sellswords; I would guess that at some point or another, they’ve had experience in fighting the Dothraki and/or Unsullied. I’m trying to remember if that is brought up in the books and can’t, though book canon may not exactly match up with show canon in this. Again, the Golden Company have a book canon reputation of not breaking a contract. If Cersei engages them then she is pretty much ensuring they won’t switch to her enemies.
Tycho spoke of the Golden Company being used to retrieve things for the Iron Bank – maybe Qyburn wants something or someone back that he thinks they can get for him?
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
I’m going to guess nothing good for LF. I would guess there will be a conversation either on or off screen about the Harrenhal meeting. LF’s argument will be that he did recognize Arya, and kept her secret. He didn’t out her to Tywin, a move that would have resulted in her being sent back to KL. As such, he demonstrated both his willingness to protect Catelyn’s children and that he was not a Lannister puppet.
Arya, on the other hand, does not trust LF. She is fiercely protective of both friends and family – consider the way she stood up to Joffrey over Mycah, and her attempts to stop Melisandre from taking Gendry, not to mention her refusal to tell Ned who gave her Needle. She is not going to like LF being sleazy over Sansa. My guess is the I loved your mother spiel that LF gave Bran won’t go down well with Arya. I wonder how much Arya will find out about how LF arranged the marriage between Sansa and Ramsay.
LF will also have learned from watching her train that Arya isn’t messing around. This girl is deadly, and he will want to get on her good side. The scene in the godswood told us she is wary of him, and as soon as Bran brought up the dagger Sansa was adamant that LF wouldn’t give something for nothing. Arya will be on her guard for an overture from him, and he has no idea yet what she is capable of.
Also, the look she gave him after her training session had ended made me wonder how close LF is coming to making her list.
1. Both the White Walkers and the Children worship the Spirograph. Did you know that there’s a direct correlation between the decline of Spirograph and the rise in gang activity? Think about it.
2. Aloe lotion, lots of it
3. Catapult elephants at dragons.
Quick question: Why didn’t Jamie try to swim. I’m guessing it is to serve as a dramatic cliffhanger but I would like to know your thoughts
Inga,
Na, he just got a Gillette.
The best a man can get.
I think that the spiral patterns have some spiritual significance to the Children which were probably adopted by the First Men and passed on to the White Walkers. I’m curious to see how much culture the WW have and how much of their behavior is simply instinctive.
I’d like to think that Dany’s crew will salvage some food and supplies and establish a safe haven on the mainland to avoid having to ferry Dothraki and Unsullied back and forth to Dragonstone. Preferably something closer to King’s Landing than Casterly Rock.
I don’t know that Qyburn had a specific plan for the Golden Company, but now they will have to try to retake whatever ground Dany has under her contro;.
I hope that Arya returns the dagger to its rightful owner in a very painful way!
I’m also wondering about Bran and how well he can protect himself. If Littlefinger had wanted to harm him or another assassin happened to be sent after him for some reason would he be able to defend himself? Could he potentially warg into the attacker to get them to stop or even kill themselves? And what would happen to Bran then?
The patterns symbolize the Path of Life to the Children and the First Men, and are being used by the White Walkers to represent the Path of Death.. when viewed in the opposite direction.
Jaime and Bronn are captured. They would be too valuable as prisoners to let drown, and Dany saw them go in the water from about 15 feet away so there’s no realistic chance they pull a Theon and float elsewhere.
I believe the Golden Company will not want to join the losing side, and will not want to get roasted by dragons. “We honor every contract we sign. We will not sign this one.”
Littlefinger’s face gets to travel a bit farther than his body does.
2.
Absolute trauma, realistically. The sheer devastation on the fields of fire (Loot Train Attack TM) was a pretty rough, traumatic and downright horrifying thing to witness and to survive. Jaime’s serious case of PTSD from the days in service to Dany’s father was obvious (finally – it is very clear in the books) and even regardless of Jaime’s unhealthy loyalty to Cersei, there’s no chance he and Tyrion will see eye to eye on which ruler to support. I wonder how Tyrion’s perspective is influenced by what happened.
It would be interesting to see Jaime as a POW in Dany’s camp, with Tyrion present. With Tyrion being on the side of the conflict that took Casterly Rock and attacked the Lannister Army in the devastating way they did plus being the one who killed their father, I think it’s fair to say that Jaime might not be too fond of Tyrion at the moment. I hope they meet up, and I hope we see that they at least understand each other (a tiny little bit) and care about each other. As unrealistic as it was for Tyrion to be there to witness the attack, I’m so glad he did because it gives him more material rather than just to say things that sound clever and introduce characters to each other.
(My comment doesn’t seem to be showing up… This is a second attempt with a different email address… Fingers crossed.)
I like other poster’s answers to 1, 2, and 3 better than my own so I’ll just say a big DITTO to the posts above.
A “smaller” impact Arya will have on LF is that she is another Stark to contend with and for Sansa to confide in and draw support and suggestions from, pulling her even further away from LF. If LF’s effort to warm up to Bran failed, imagine what will happen when/if he does the same thing with Arya. Also, LF probably noticed that the dagger he gave to Bran is now in Arya’s possession and what does he think about that? On another thread someone mentioned that they hoped Arya played the “truth or lie” game with him….or at least some form of it. I agree! A lot of potential with these two, I wonder how much D&D will mine?
Just a tid-bit on LF, in case no one mentioned this in previous posts. Regarding the scene where the WF maester says old Maester Lewin made a copy of all the raven scrolls received and LF looked at him as if that meant something to him. While it may be true that Cat destroyed the scroll from Lysa after she read it, LF does not know that and he could be caught rummaging through the records, where he has no place being, because he thinks it is there. That will put more suspicion on him and just why he would be doing that. Maybe it will be “silent as a cat” Arya that will discover him with the records. So much to look forward to!
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
I think for this question it’s important to make a distinction that I don’t recall being made in the show but has been made, either in ASoS or ACoK – I can’t remember. That distinction is that dragonglass only kills wight walkers (or Others as they’re referred to in the ASOIAF), and only fire destroys their thralls/ army of the dead. At least, that’s how I remember it. I think the wight walkers inherited a few things from the Children of the Forest during their creation, one being their symbols. Perhaps the wight walkers use some of these symbols to create more wights, as seen by the Night King with Craster’s son. And I honestly am not sure about the rest. But I feel that a huge element to the mysticism might be tapping into opposing forces which is just scattered throughout the ASOIAF series: milkglass/dragonglass; ice/fire; dark/light; ebony/weirwood, etc.
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
Judging by the description for Eastwatch, I’m hoping Dany doesn’t do anything rash with the survivors she is seen addressing in the trailer for the episode…. like burn them. If she wants Westerosis to follow her, I’m hoping she’s smart enough to know that she can’t be like her father and just kill those who would oppose her. Who knows, maybe Jorah will arrive in time to talk some sense into her if she won’t listen to Tyrion. Also, IF, and only if, Jaime is taken prisoner Tyrion may set him free, thus fulfilling the “betrayal for love” prophecy. And IF Jaime is to turn on Cersei, I feel that part of that has to stem from Jaime’s realization that Dany is not Aerys, but to accomplish this, Dany has to show some semblance of mercy. I’m just hoping she doesn’t kill those survivors, but instead lets them return to King’s Landing, which I think would send a greater message: a Lannister army returning in defeat.
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
Well it was Cersei who said that she needed the Golden Company to “expand her armies and navies” as well as “recovering things” that belong to her, but I feel that D&D might be adapting certain plots from ASOIAF for this budding plot so I won’t answer this completely, other than saying it might not go as smoothly as Qyburn & Cersei would like.
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
From Petyr Baelish’s point of view, he probably views Arya as another pawn in his own game. But he’s not prepared for, nor does he understand, the fantastical elements like Bran’s visions and Arya’s ability to detect lies thanks to her training at the House of Black & White. I don’t think Petyr will account for the loyalty the Starks have towards each other as well. I actually think Arya and Sansa will have a stronger relationship now than they had when they were children because Sansa is no longer this starry-eyed naïve girl who dreams of knights. Perhaps Petyr will think the opposite is true or maybe he’ll try to drive a wedge between them like he was trying to do with Sansa & Jon…. but ultimately, I’m really hoping there’s a moment where Petyr stops and realizes: “I’ve done fucked up.”
Re point 2….
Hi everyone, I normally just lurk here but was itching to know whether anyone else felt that Jaime was sinking into a metaphorical abyss rather than a deep river in that episode?
I don’t buy the whole drop off to deep water theory and someone else pointed out that he looked like bran falling in season 1. I think it could be an(other) emotional fall due to his failure to beat dany and maybe even something that sets him on a path away from cersei.
Interested to know your thoughts.
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
For some reason I have a “Moana” vibe that includes the NK and now Arya’s VS dagger Catspaw. Arya singing “This is not who you are”… lol
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
Jaime and Bronn will be rescued. Randall Tarly will be the first not follow Dany, so Dany will set an example. After that happens, the remaining Lannister men will follow Dany including Bronn. Jamie will be a prisoner. Tyrion will to convince Dany that he is more useful to them alive. Jaime will remain prisoner because he will not switch sides.
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
The Golden Company will be hired to retrieve Sansa from winterfell, bolster whatever is left of the Lannister army, and sack all the villages to provide food for Kings landing.
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
I am sure LF will try to talk to/feel out Arya, just like Jon, Sansa, and Bran. She will have a similar Jon type reaction when he talks crap about Jon. (Arya’s weak/sore spot)
1.) IDK that the symbols are anything more than a tool to get us to remember the children as much as I don’t want that to be the case, I think it’s as simple as that.
I want it to have deeper meaning but I can’t guess as to what it would be. Bran may have been involved in the creation of it though? That may be the twist.
2.) Jaime and Bronn if alive are captured is my thinking. Will Dany let the man who killed her father off the hook? What does Tyrion say to either Bronn or Jaime? hopefully Dickon is alive and Randyll got roasted. I’m sure there has to be a Tarly reckoning though so maybe not.
3.) I think the Golden Co. is name only. Won’t have book significance sadly.
BONUS: Sansa said last season, “That ‘No One’ can protect me”. #JustSo “No One” will introduce their non-existent self to Petey.
Ok so Tyrion and Missandei warn Dany about arrows. So as far as we know Aegon the Conqueror was never un-dragon-ed*, does Dany know this? What tactics did Aegon use? After all they had ballistas then too. So for Dany is it lesson learned? .Aegon wore armor when in battle, Dany needs a lesson about that too.
*as far as we know neither were Visenya and Rhaenys
Alba Stark,
Littlefinger lied about the dagger. He said he lost it to Tyrion Lannister during the tourney. Tyrion always bet on his brother. The Dagger was Tyrions and he lost it to Littlefinger.
Dark Sister,
It’s strange that everyone wants Dany to show mercy to those that won’t bend the knee but had Bronn killed Drogon and the Dothraki were defeated Dany would be tortured by Cersei. At least death by Drogon would be quick if he hit them head on. Everyone knew from the end of season one Dany would be using dragons. Aegon burned many more people and he wasn’t considered mad. I do believe she should abandon this quest for the throne and turn the dragons north. And that’s definitely foreshadowed by her vision in the house of the undying and all the flirting with Jon.
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
I Really think those symbols are only to keep the audience connected or “clued” into the connections that exist between WW and CoF and 1stM. They don’t have a larger meaning that is going to be revealed or relevant at any time. Show drama – not GRRM drama.
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
Jamie went to “take out” Dany the same way he went to take out Robb in the whispering wood (throwback) and will get captured (hopefully not dead – from drowning in the deepest mud puddle in Westeros) (Throwback) He’ll now be held captive (throwback) – and in some way be released to hold an oath (throwback) or be released without Dany knowing (deception for love) (throwback) because someone else knows he can still play a role (kill Cersei – little brother).
Bronn is flipping sides (throwback) quicker than Brown Ben Plumm can bring up his small drop of dragon blood, and getting himself a castle after he is forced to go with Theon to rescue Yara (throwback – return the favor Theon) . Plus they’ll be smuggled into Kings Landing by Davos like onions (throwback).
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
They’ll need an army after that can o’ justice that just got opened on them and as as a substitute for misleading drama next season (get your name dropping on), for the lack of their presence already in the story with Young Grif and the betrayal storyline missed from the books with the 2nd Sons and possibly Golden Company in tWoW.
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
No One Only Knows –
Own for “Queen’s Justice” goes to the stunt coordinators and directors for this show! #flamingawesome
1. The symbols – could they have some astronomical connection? Show what the heavens should be with regular seasons versus what they are now, with odd, unpredictable seasons?
2. Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company may be to take back Casterly rock from the Unsullied.
Lord Of Lite,
I am guessing Littlefinger will realize the heat is on and it’s time to leave Winterfell. Littlefinger returns the Eyrie…
later Arya will send Littlefinger flying through the Moondoor just like a Mockinbird but Arya will be using Sansa’s face/body…
I’m not sure there is much depth to this from the show perspective beyond linking CotF and WW’s with each other. I would guess that the symbols are associated with the mysticism and magic of the CotF which are clearly magical beings. The WWs might recreate these symbols from their slaughtered victims to counteract CotF magic, generate some kind of magic of their own, or maybe just to mock the CotF with the bloody fruits of their magic.
I could see Tyrion flipping Bronn with more castle promises. Until this episode I hadn’t realised that Tyrion is now in a position with Jaime captured to fit the third betrayal for love very well. I think the love for his brother compels him to set Jaime free from a death sentence from Dany. This might be the death of Tyrion.
Hire them to fight Dany. They just lost a huge part of their forces. I don’t think this pans out though, I don’t see the show introducing the Golden Company. After war of the queens I’m convinced it is right to the war for the dawn. Probably just an Easter Egg mention for book readers.
A new very useful face for Arya. LF can’t penetrate the honor of the Northerners with his scheming. He may be backchanneling with Cersie to try and take out the wolves for her. Might be the only play he has to climb his chaos ladder. He will fail, pack survives, Arya commands the knights of the Vale with a new face… maybe…
I’m very very worried by Sansas comment that Jons heart would burst when he meets Arya again. Sounds like serious foreshadowing.
I’ve been curious about how Jon and Varys have spent so much time waiting around on Dragonstone and never discussed (from Jon) how Littlefinger rode to the rescue and is in Winterfell and (from Varys) how crazy that is since Littlefinger betrayed Ned.
One wonders , also, after seeing what Dany’s forces did wither any further investment by the Iron Bank would be worth it.
1. I think the symbols are a source of there power/magic like spells or something.. that eventually every symbol will have a specific meaning.. thats spells out how to defeat them..
2. I think Tyrion will return Jaime and Bronn to kings landing that’s when we get the gendry pop up.. randally tarly is toast, Dickon will bend the knee be named warden of the south by Danny..
3. The golden company will be used to take out the north and bring Sansa back to kings landing and get Casterly rock back
Bonus::Fingers is a dead man walking Bran ain’t got to tell Arya anything she saw him with Tyion she over heard the conversation.. she going to kill him wear his face to most likely give orders to Yon Royce or sweet robin to keep the Vale army
Every civilization used the spiral in decorations and stone carvings and represented something in their religion and spirituality. I can’t remember which civilization had it down as such, but I prefer the growth and/or infinity meaning.
In GoT we saw the spirals when the White Walkers were multiplying their forces by reanimating bodies into ice zombies. We also saw the spiral made by the CotF when they performed the ritual to make the first WW. That was meant to multiply their own forces against the First Men.
So continuing this line of thinking when we’re looking at the body parts spirals from the White Walkers I think it just means: winter is coming.
Jamie and Bronn are saved from drowning and are captured by Dany. She’ll try to use Jaime as a piece to bargain with Cersei. Cersei will refuse to give up her power or bargain for Jaime’s life and that’s when Jaime realizes how right the Queen of Thorns was when she said he’s a fool and just a tool as far as Cersei is concerned.
Of course Cersei does plot to bring her brother back and make everything ok, but Jaime won’t believe her when he does get back to KL (he’s being secretly freed from Dragonstone’s cells by Tyrion, to mirror how Tyrion escaped from KL). In a passionate fight between Cersei and Jaime in which she’ll spitefully tell him that she likes soldiers who are not captured, he will strangle the life out of her using both hands. Ok, one hand and his golden prosthetic arm.
What about Bronn you say? He’s dandy switching sides and for his future services for Dany’s side, he’ll be getting a castle from Tyrion. The Lannisters always pay their debts.
I’d love to think for once I’m spot on with predictions!
I didn’t know HE had one. I thought Cersei wanted them to get something that was taken away from her. I took that to mean the 4 kingdoms she’s missing.
Nothing. I believe it’s Bran who’s the real danger. Arya has a Valyrian dagger. Valyrian dagger is wasted on Littlefinger who you could kill by a push down the stairs. Arya is meant for something physically bigger I think. Petyr is Sansa’s to take down.
How is it strange to expect better from somebody who is supposed to be better than Cersei?
Carl Stalling,
Id imagine the weight of the armour might have something to do with it
ManderlyPieCompany,
B
Wow, how’d I miss that one? good catch!
Dark Sister,
There are two ways where Dany can show mercy if the prisoners don’t bend the knee: she can send them to the Wall to take the Black or she can send them in exile. Both were done before by Targs. I just hope she’s not killing them. That would be what Cersei would do. Her whole strategy is to be as different from her as possible.
Chad Brick,
If so, will Sansa then be the one to swing the sword? There’s a thought…
I think the symbolism is depicting the evolution of the white walkers who were created from a first man. If my history of Westeros is correct, the first men went a little crazy cutting down Wierwoods and hunting the children relentlessly. I believe they created the white walkers to battle the first men but it must have backfired on them. By banding together with FM to fight the walkers the symbol represents how the process came full circle.
As far as our heroes are concerned, this is dependent on the fate of Jaime and to a lesser extent Bronn (although Jerome Flynn is on of my faves). Maybe Tyrion can convince Jaime to come over to the Targaryan side to fight the army of the dead.
I sense electricity between Jon and Daenarys. Perhaps that is the only way he will kneel. Given Targaryan history I don’t think it would matter much that she is his aunt.
As for the Golden Company just more fodder for for the fire.
The look that Arya gave Baylish after the duel with Brienne falls under the “if looks could kill” category. Bran knows the real Baylish and as soon as Arya finds out he’ll go straight to the top of the list.
Do you know what episode Arya saw Littlefinger talking to Tryion and over heard the conversation??
Thanks for the info!!!!!!!
My own speculation is that Cersei plans to attack Winterfell to kill Sansa. First, because the show mentioned several times this season how the south has NEVER marched that far north, and never will. That means of course they will, right? And second, Cersei never forgot about Sansa escaping, and mentioned it every time she spoke to Littlefinger. I think she’s still obsessed with killing Sansa. Cersei is the biggest misogynist in that world, and the only thing she hates more than other women is a woman who appears to have bested her. And third, they’re setting it up so that Sansa can prove herself as a ruler (all that “you’re good at this” comments is foreshadowing).
howtathor,
I am surprised that Arya and Sansa haven’t had some serious sister talk with Sansa telling Arya how Petyr murdered their Aunt Lysa right around the time Arya and the Hound got to the Eyrie and Littlefinger set Sansa up to marry Ramsey Snow who tortured Sansa everynight… Arya would ask what the hell is he still doing here?
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
I think the spirals were part of the magic the day the first WW was created. He was surrounded by them then… perhaps he has to get back to that same place and this is their way of communicating to everyone exactly what it is he’s looking for. They aren’t communicating any other way about anything else so it’s gotta be pretty important for them to keep repeating it.
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
Jamie won’t bend the knee, Dany wants to burn him, Tyrion convinces her to use him and keep him alive. Bronn bends the knee but wants a Lannister to pay his debt of gold, castles and beautiful wife. I don’t think he’ll care which Lannister.
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
Can’t be anything good.
1. With regards to some of those cave drawings: I noted that underneath two of the pictures of the first “men” (or women) were two of the symbols that we have seen the white walkers make after their killings–the spiral and the odd shape that appeared in the first episode. Perhaps one of these symbols is “fire” (the sun/elliptical) and the other one is for “ice”. There’s also a third figure without any symbol underneath him/her (the third head of the dragon?) and an odd circle with a dot in the middle behind it behind the 3 men/women (the 3-eyed raven?). Just a theory, but I thought it was interesting.
The dagger never belonged to either of them. Littlefinger made up the wager story to sow chaos between the Starks and Lannisters.
The dagger was stolen from King Robert’s armory by Joffrey and given to the catspaw assassin. Joff had heard Robert say that Bran should be put out of his misery, and thought he would impress his ‘father’ by arranging it.
These two comments made me laugh out loud:
Everyone has given much better explanations for the circles than I could. Lots of interesting speculation.
Jaime is captured and is thought to be a bargaining chip with Cersei. Tyrion knows better and releases him with some poorly defined purpose in mind. Not sure about next steps: I’ve been waiting for Jaime to do the smart thing and run away from Cersei for about 3 seasons.
Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company is to fight for Cersei. As others have said, the sellswords aren’t interested in being dragon BBQ and will politely decline the job offer.
Arya’s arrival means death to LF. She knows what he is about and, if she is missing info, Bran will provide the details. It’s time for the Starks to be done with this slime ball.
3) Qyburn’s intentions: Without Qyburn, Cersei would be pitiful and desperate and probably still listening to Septa Unella’s monotone barrage. Tyrion, Dany and Varys need to get to Professor Q and offer him a deal he can’t refuse, like a robust lab on Dragonstone. Just think of the contraptions and weapons he could build for the dragons!
1. As mentioned, the spirals are an ancient symbol that reflects change and evolution, used by the COTF to conjure the white walkers. It must have magical properties. The circle with a line through it has less origin in the show and generally — maybe meaning death. That could explain the juxtoposition of the symbols in the obsidian cave: evolution/change eventually leads to death.
2. Jaime is captured. Eventually he is freed by Tyrion to act as an emissary to negotiate with Cersei over something. May or may not be sanctioned by Danerys.
Randall Tarly refuses to serve a targaryen, and is killed but Dickon, sickened by killing his own family upon orders of the Lannisters bends the knee. Puts Sam in an interesting position if he ever joins up with Jonerys.
Bronn changes sides. I like the theory cited above that he is used to infiltrate KL and save Yara, and Theon accompanies him and kills Euron along the way.
Tyrion has to work through the conflicts created by seeing Lannister soldiers in flames and Jaime almost die and then be captured. The tension around family, change, and reworked relationships seems a big theme for season 7. What I am less sure of is whether Tyrion can command their allegiance, and how will they be used? Start a siege of KL?
3. Two options for the Golden Company: 1) Recapture Casterly Rock (and grey worm dies) or 2) raid on WF with LF consipiring with Cersei to destroy the starks (after LF gives up on ever persuading Sansa to marry him and seize the Iron Throne).
Arya/LF — LF is toast. I think that LF is definitely in a weakened position, but he is trying. He waited until Jon was gone, isolating Sansa. When Bran showed up, he tried the old “ingratiate teens with toys trick.” In episode 5 he will try to ingratiate himself to Sansa, perhaps by arguing (as referenced by another author) that he recognized Arya but did not give her up to Tywin while at Harrenhall. These efforts will all fail as the Starks band together. He will try to betray the starks but will get caught, perhaps by Arya using her faceless girl trick. From there, there are crazy possibilities ranging from the Vale turning on Winterfell to Arya wearing Baelish’s face to command the vale or even go after Cersei. In any case, Sansa needs to somehow get to Arya that killing LF outright will hurt the cause.
I haven’t read prior comments, so forgive any redundancy. My two cents:
1. RoboBran asked LF point blank if he knew who the dagger belonged to. LF replied “No.” Bran will flash back to LF’s lie to Catelyn that the dagger belonged to him but he lost it in a bet to Tyrion. LF’s credibility drops to 0%. RoboBran puts together other fragments. Realizes LF wants to destroy the Starks.
2. It will be up to Samwell Tarly, Ph.D. to figure out what the cave symbols mean.
Lord Of Lite,
This is something from the “inside the episode”. I don’t think it’s really a spoiler, but just in case…
Good thought. Maybe Arya can lend her Needle and point out where the heart is and Sansa can stick LF with the pointy end.
Firannion,
A shot in the dark here: The spirals could point towards the storyline running in a loop. If I think about Bran Stark, Bran The Builder and The Three Eyed Raven all being one person, along with Hodor’s story on becoming “Hodor,”
Carl Stalling,
There is a discussion in the books about it being a very bad idea to wear armour if battling near, or crossing a body of water (concerning the battle at Riverrun) … not only can most people not swim, armour is VERY heavy and you just sink
Firannion,
In the books, yes. In the show it might be slightly different, but didn’t Littlefinger say to Cat and Ned: “It was mine, I lost it to Tyrion during a bet, I bet on the Kingslayer as any sane man would, but the Mountain unseated him.” (which should hint that it’s a lie, why would Tyrion not bet on his brother) So he certainly tried to frame it on Tyrion, but I’m not sure whether it was supposed to be really his from the beginning (or from Robert’s armory, which makes more sense, because he took over the Targaryen armory). Anyway, it should really be something for Joffrey, because why give an assassin a Valyrian steel dagger if a normal dagger would suffice. I guess framing Tyrion could have been done with some other artefact. In the show, I’m not sure if it’s implied that Littlefinger sent the assassin. Does he say it was his in the books? (I would doubt that, considering the tourney statement was a lie)
Hursta1,
Yeah, I definitely agree with you that if Cersei & the Lannisters won, she would have shown no mercy. I think that’s the point though – Dany has to set herself apart from both Cersei and the Mad King if she doesn’t want to be “more of the same” as Jon told her when she asked for his advice. And I also agree about her eventually heading to the North. I think at this point, she has to if she wants to protect the realm she seeks to rule.
TormundsWoman,
Yes, exactly. 🙌 Cersei has already been referring to Dany as the Mad King’s daughter so Dany really has to set an example to show that she is neither the Mad King or Cersei.
I did not read all answers, so it may be mentioned before. – Ser Jorah Mormont was once a member of the Golden Company. I think he said that in season 5. I assumed at the time that the GK would play a part later in the series and there it is. He will be the reason why the GK will ultimately fight for Mrs. T. Stormborn. (maybe it will be his mission to convince them)
1. Art for art’s sake. I’m not sure those symbols will ever be explained further on the show. Perhaps they’re just a means to illustrate the fact that the children created the WW. IMO, they don’t even need to be explained. Some aspects of a fantasy-world can be left obscure and there’s nothing worse than trying to bring pseudo-science into a scenario like this to explain things. I’d rather have them say “a wizard did it” and move on.
2. Jaime and Bronn aren’t dead of course. Dany will offer the Lannister-army mercy (the quote was in the preview). Bronn *might* get an offer to switch sides, but since it was him who tried to bring down Drogon, I’m not too sure about that. Perhaps Tyrion will try and convince Dany to let Bronn live. Jaime will definitely be held as a hostage – and I can totally see Tyrion trying to or actually succeeding at setting him free. It would mirror Jaime helping Tyrion escape KL back in season, errr, 4? Plus it wouldn’t be the first time Jaime was captured and set free by a “rogue” member of the opposing team.
3. This might just have been a throwaway-line to please the fans. Other than that: They could use more bodies to buff their strength. Not sure if they have concrete plans for the Golden Company. And as others have pointed out: What mercenary-outfit in their right mind would accept an offer that involves fighting three grown dragons and a horde of Dothraki? Question remains if they can even still afford to hire more soldiers after Dany torched all the foodstuffs they took from Highgarden. Even mercenaries need to eat …
Actually, Rhaenys and her dragon were killed by a balista in Dorne.
Just a comment, not an answer.
Jaime’s view of his men on fire and seeing the daughter of the Mad King he killed following in her father’s footsteps is quite powerful. It’s clear why he wouldn’t support Dany – he just can’t trust her. What makes it fall apart is that Jaime should have been disgusted with Cersei. Her blowing up the Sept should have been the turning point of finally leaving her. That Cersei is more like the Mad King.
So that took away from the experience, but the episode was still awesome though.
Balerion and Aegon wore armor.
OOOOOOOOOO, just listening to the latest podcast about Littlefinger trying to gain ground in the North.
Does anyone think Littlefinger’s demise might be in the north as was Ned Stark’s in the south?
Ned attempted to play the game with a northern code in the south and Littlefinger turned on him. Perhaps him trying to play a southern game in the north will be his undoing? He truly has no friends in the north, Bran knows everything about him, Arya (I don’t think it’s clear her opinion yet) wouldn’t like him and Sansa knows who he is but keeps him around for his men.
I’m quite annoyed with him always having the upper hand, so watching Bran shut him down was satisfying. Own to Bran! That will be the only time I say it. Maybe.
Ah yes, well hope Dany knows or is told that story.
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
Those symbols were perhaps one of the first clues we saw in the series, and like in a mystery film when they show a gun the chances are that it will sooner or later be used, the same – I think- applies here. I believe that those symbols are importart.
Perhaps they are part of magic/religious rituals, connected to the ‘all seeing’ old gods: weirwoods, Godswoods – heart trees. NK /WW are magical creatures, so them using it too, must mean something important. Perhaps Bran – or Sam will discover more on their meaning and perhaps these can be used somehow. Spirals usually are connected with the feminine element and more importantly with nature on its unrestrained, raw form. The old god religion is deeply connected with nature itself so it seems to be connected.
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
Jamie and Bronn I think will either find a way to escape without beeing seen – or while they are thought to be dead. I don’t think Jamie will be captured – though a face to face with Tyrion after Lady Olenna’s words, would be interesting. But that would put Tyrion on a very tight spot – he loves his brother. The Tarlys – I hate Sam’s dad, with his twisted sense for things and people. I wouldn’t mind seeing them taken out by Dany 😀
But I need to make another comment on the aftermath of this battle: I REALLY hope that Dany has realized that her super-weapon, the Dragons are no longer a super weapon as they can be taken out now: that changes the game (and it changes it also in relation to the past Targ wars where the Dragons could actually win a war by themselves); she and Cercei are equally dangerous with equal power.
So she must seriously consider this aspect in whatever she plans next.
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
I’m not sure about Qyburn’s plans about the G.C – maybe he wants to create a few more Zombies like the Mountain! I understand that Cercei wants more men to fight, so they are a good option for her. But I too think that the fact Sir Jorah was a member of them might play a role in how this will unfold. And if I have learned something about the Iron Bank is that one shouldn’t trust them – they will give their money support to whoever they please, no matter if you have paid them or not. I think Cercei may be overestimating the control she has over the Iron Bank just because she gives them gold – and the same might apply for the Golden Company too. I don’t know how things will unfold, but its not only Dany who was over confident – Cercei is too. The difference is that Dany has some losses now, that perhaps help her to come down to earth and not underestimate her enemy, while Cercei is ‘winning’ and that inflates her already inflated overconfidence.
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
LF, I think, sees now Arya as an opportunity to get what he wants. He’d like to use her, the way he tries to use everybody. He may also try to create tension between Arya and Sansa. Sansa was surprised at Arya’s new abilities. LF doesn’t know about Arya being able to change faces. But Arya may prove a tougher case to ‘read’ than LF thinks. While Bran of course knows all about that. Arya’s display of abilities cannot have been shown without a cause. She’ll be inclined to use them. I hope she will use them on LF! If the Stark kids unite and share their stories and info each knows, they will make a super team: Arya as the assasin, Bran who knows all and Sansa who has learned how to play political games and scheaming – the pack can survive if they cooperate. And they could take out LF! (I hope!)
WW drew one of those symbols in Season 1 Episode 1 with dead wildlings.
I noticed the same thing. The NK in the cave doesn’t appear to be the same NK right now. Unless he made himself an ice razor…
As for the patterns in the cave, I have no idea what they mean. But it’s interesting that they patterns appeared in Season 1, Episode 1, Scene 1 and yet we still don’t have an answer to what they represent. I do think that there is a deep connection between the NK and the Three-Eyed Raven. I keep think back to The Door and they way the NK stared at him before killing him. Ultimately, I think these patterns are the final piece that will connect the WW, the COTF and the Three-Eyed Raven together.
I also doubt the answer to all of this will come this season.
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
Well, I’m not very learned on the study of ancient symbols and such. For actual meaning, I think Fiannion’s take in one of the first few replies is probably the best bet: some kind of symbols of continuity, the circular nature of things, etc. For narrative purposes, I think it shows the relationship between the beliefs of the CoF and the White Walkers.
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
If we’re talking about Jamie and Bronn as our heroes, I think both make it out. Something needs to jog Jamie back onto his redemption arc. If a little time talking to Tyrion and maybe Jon while in the cells at Dragonstone (which weren’t that uncomfortable when Davos was in them as I remember), than I don’t know what is. Bronn either dies from injuries received in his rescue of Jamie or Danny flips him by offering a castle (and then giving him Harrenhal 🙂 ).
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
Get back something for Cersei. Maybe Casterly Rock.
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
I kind of looks like the show doesn’t know what to do with Littlefinger anymore. I hope he has one last scheme in him before he goes.
The spirals are a symbol of the eternal recurrence within the history of GoT’s world. Many things repeat themselves historically and within the show. Dany’s invasion recapitulates Aegon’s invasion of Westeros from the East, the White Walker’s have come before, we see repetition in the crowning of Robb and Jon as Kings in the North, etc. These are just a few examples. Dany makes the speech about breaking the wheel in season 6, which we take to mean the Game of Thrones, but what if it also means to break through the eternal recurrence of historical events that seems to take place within that world? For all we know, since we only have the unreliable history of the maesters to go by, these events have all happened before for thousands of years with new people (Jon, Dany, Night King) filling in these historical archetypal characters in the time we see depicted in the show.
Stavross,
I always enjoy a good Simpsons reference
1. I had read an article on ancient symbols in civilizations where the spiral like symbol could resemble the ‘symbol of creation’.
2. Bend the knee! Actually – I’m not really sure. I would imagine they could swim further away and be able to come up unannounced and make a hasty gentaway – or Dany could really just tell Drogon to go fishing? It would be interesting if Jamie was captured and suddenly Tyrion is in this spot where he was released frm his own cell by Jamie so does his brother return the favor?
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
I mean… you hire some guys to be your army ya know? Future battle plans?
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
Valar Morghulis
Kyle Glover,
This is what I am thinking as well. That “breaking the wheel” actually means breaking the wheel of time. We also know that Hodor and his death is a loop.
Some scattered thoughts I’ve collected until now, but I can’t quite connect the dots yet……
The first pattern/symbol, as seen by the deserted Night’s Watch Will in S1E1 – the one Ned later beheaded. We’ve seen them leave it in the landscape several times since. It looks like the small Greek letter, “Phi” (Looks like this: φ or this: Φ ). As many of you probably know it’s used in the mathematical world as a symbol for The Golden Ratio (Google/Wiki it for more info).
By many it is considered to be divine. This ratio also equate (among other things) into perfect spiral shapes like the other recurring symbol made by the WWs. You can see it in nature with sunflowers or the cross-section of a snail house and much, much more! The human eye perceive this golden ratio as harmonious, beautiful or balanced. Maybe the WW aren’t as evil as we are to believe (i.e. they didn’t harm a passive Sam). They may just try to draw attention towards a universal order or code, through which all beings on Planetos can co-exist in a better fashion/ratio than now. I really can’t imagine why they wouldn’t have tried before, though…
In that context my thoughts keep returning to the astrolabe, we see in the intro. It’s also inside The Citadel in Oldtown and there must be some importance to it, since we see it so often… In GRRM’s universe, it looks like the sun is at the center, which technically makes it more of a “Copernican” sphere (had to Wiki that one 😉 ). A Copernican is used to measure planetary constellations/star aligments, soooo…
Maybe the WW actually hate freezing their ass off in eternity, but the magic of the COTF can perhaps only be undone, when the planetary alignment is the same as, when the 13th Lord Commander was first turned into the NK. Which to some degree would explain that the COTF made these spiral symbols when the WW were created…
Finally: I’ve noticed the “O” in the official title: GΦT is also the symbol of Phi, but instead of one line, it has 3 thin lines going through it. I would also think it all has something to do with the Dragons of Valyria and the enhancement of magic they bring to the party (according to the warlock at The House of the Undying). Why? …well, one and only one House sigil resemble the spirals of the COTF and WW: House Targaryen with the 3 dragonheads and tails/wings spinning around the edge. Like in a traditional fairytale, there’s A LOT of “3’s” in this story, if you think about it…
What do you say? I can’t think straight… 🙂
1. Symbols: They could both represent the cosmos/the order of the weather seasons and be magical. The WW are the doomsday weapon created and loosed by the Children. The WW may have a fascination with the symbols of their creators or may be using the symbols to counter Children magic or they became smart enough to subvert the magic to their own purposes as the monsterous creation attempts to surpass its creator with “blood magic” (who then “betrayed” the creation in the eyes of the WW). Blood Magic is the most simple solution since the symbols made by the WW use body parts of the slain… especially when mutilation for decoration would be “wasting” potential wights for the “Army of the Dead”
2. Bronn & Jaime have an opportunity to escape amid the chaos (others will assume they were burned to ash). Bronn, if captured, really hurt the mother of dragon’s child and Dany knows his face (not good). Jaime makes a good political prisoner if he gets captured. Randyll and Dickon get roasted like chicken if they survived the battle.
3. Qyburn plans to have the Golden Company fight for Cersei. His plan will backfire like Blackfyre if the Golden Company actually do get involved.
Arya = Death for Littlefinger. The wolves are circling. Arya won’t care about any politics if she suspects Littlefinger had anything to do with what happened to Ned, Bran or any of her family, or finds out he gave Sansa to the Bolton’s, Peter is finished.
Varys should find out (or know by now) where Littlefinger is. He should tell “King Jon” how Littlefinger and Janos Slynt betrayed Ned…. Varys is already convinced Littlefinger is too dangerous to let survive.
Varys should also let “King Jon” know Mellisandre brought news of him to Danaerys
Inga,
None of us expect Azor Ahi to be the same guy as he was the first time, so why should the Night King be the same.. entity?
1. The Children of the Forest created the White Walkers. The White Walkers assemble patterns the Children have illustrated for thousands of years. What does this mean? What do the symbols mean? Why were they important to the Children and the First Men?
I think, due to the contexts we have seen it in (the ritual to create White Walkers, the White Walker horse body part collage, the cave, etc) that the spiral pattern as well as the strange line/circle motif are some sort of magical symbols. Perhaps we could draw a parallel to the pentagram in our world. I think that the spiral, in particular has to do with directing multiple sources energy into a specific point, to create something powerful, IE a mean mad White Walker. If they used that spiral in a ritual that involved obsidian, it also makes sense that they would want to “bless the obsidian” with this symbol.
It also makes sense that the White Walkers would use their creators’ symbols/ “magical toolkit” in their own quest to overthrow the Children of the Forest. If a spiral has helped turn you into a completely new race of being, you’re probably going to have some respect for its power, even if you don’t like what happened.
I think it was important to the Children and the First Men because it probably served many more functions than simply making White Walkers (that stone spiral looked like it had been there long before the flashback Bran saw last season.) If, like I theorize, it was used to direct many points of energy together, or even conversely to send many points of energy out from one source, I can imagine a lot of ways that would have been useful magically to the shaman-esque Children and their human allies. Imagine, you have one fireball to throw at all these pesky zombies running your way, surrounding you. Quick spiral drawing on the ground and — BOOM– your little fireball shoots out in every direction. Or imagine, you’re feeling weak, running through the Mythic North with many injuries. Stand in the center of the spiral, and use it to pull the energy of nature into you, maybe from surrounding trees or mountains, and heal you.
(side note: my tinfoil hat is securely on my head as I type. 😉 )
2. What is next for our heroes who survived the Loot Train?
Most likely long and tense negotiations about whether or not they will bend the knee. I predict Bronn will be an easy sell, but Jamie not so much. I think the conflict of seeing Jamie again is going to do a LOT to mess with Tyrion this week.
And Dany… well. I love the girl, and I’ve been rooting for her since page one and episode one, but I’m sure she’s riding high off that victory. She’s gonna have a hard time not just wanting to do that every battle. Wouldn’t you?
3. What is Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company?
My hope is that the Golden Company is as well manned and well equipped as in the books. (ELEPHANTS, huge sections of knights, light calvary, infantrymen, bowmen, etc, Check with Brynden BFish for the full amount) They would be an army that could possibly give Dany’s a run for her money, especially since Dothraki hordes are no stranger to them. NOT that I want Cersei to win, but it would be much more satisfying if she went out with a fight. And as it stands, Cersei looks pretty darn easy to beat. Also, I just love the Golden Company — I’m a historical military nerd, and one of the things that makes me nerd out the most while reading the books is Jaime or Robb or Brynden or Jon or Jon Connington or Stannis or even Tywin and Roose, out there, talking tactics, on the march, forming lines, bein’ grumpy. Lol.
BONUS: What does the arrival of Arya mean to Petyr Baelish?
NOT SURE. But I hope it’s death! I love LF, but his time has come. The Game of thrones is over, bro. And THIS Chaos you’re about to face, is not the kind you can use as a ladder.
Not a spoiler. D&D to me arent saying they literally dont know what the symbols mean. Its more of a general statement that the audience doesnt know. Not sure how to explain it but they arent saying they dont know. Its more of a narrative thing to keep the suspense with the story.
Greywormwithapackage,
I dont recall Arya being anywhere near LF and Tyrion before she left Kings Landing at the end of season one.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
I think greyworm ment TYWIN. In season two Arya was the cup bearer and littlefinger waltzed in with his plan that he told TYWIN about. (He never admits to betraying Ned in that seen so I am not sure she would go after him until Bran tells her that)
It’s probably a coincidence, but the spiral design is the same exact layout as the Targaryen sigil, if you take the dragon’s heads off the sigil. With the weirwood tree at the center of that stone spiral where the Night King was created, I wonder if this is some kind of obscure visual cue to suggest Jon’s parentage, the ultimate playing-out of the White Walker apocalypse, and maybe even the fact that the Children are responsible for the dragons and/or the Targaryens.
Probably crackpot, but since TV is a visual medium, the similarities, as a potential storytelling tool, are interesting.
Fierce as a Wolverine,
I was mentioning exactly that a little earlier (Check last paragraph of my post at 10:39 am ). Surely there’s something about. The question is just what?? ..Can’t crack the code just yet 🙂
1. The spirals seem to have astronomical significance. I was listening to a different Game of Thrones podcast this morning and one of the podcasters had been inside of real caves in Ireland and New Zealand and said they had spiral patterns drawn in them. It’s a pretty compelling near-universal symbol, but in this universe, also remember the original proposal written by GRRM involved a planet in which the seasons had been permanently thrown off their normal cycle by an astronomical event. It’s a long shot, but maybe the Children are not only responsible for the creating the Night King but also for throwing this planet’s rotation out of whack (recall that in the vision, the Land of Always Winter was not yet experiencing winter, so something changed).
2. I imagine whoever survived will be taken prisoner. Jaime will remain a prisoner to get Cersei to come to the negotiating table to avoid further bloodshed. The Tarlys and Bronn will be given the opportunity to switch sides, along with the armies themselves.
3. I imagine the hiring of the Golden Company is just a ploy to increase the size of Cersei’s armies, which, even bolstered by Tyrell bannermen, remain smaller than Dany’s armies. I don’t think I buy that the Golden Company would accept this contract in the real world, given what just happened (money is no good if you’re incinerated before you can spend it), but they’ll likely come into play in the story somehow. They’re not a large force, though, and shouldn’t make a difference. Cersei lost the Reach as soon as she won it, and still has Dorne, the North, the Vale, and probably the Riverlands (soon, if not already) against her. She can’t win an open field fight or even a siege, with or without extra sellswords. Her only available card once Dany unleashes her full might is the threat of nuking King’s Landing, which is probably a price even maniac Dany isn’t willing to pay. She seems willing to sacrifice the Red Keep for victory, but not the entire city.
Tessa rose Davidson,
Well yes she was there when LF met Tywin. Ive debated extensively over that scene. And no theres no mention concerning LF betraying Ned there.
True…but at the table at Harrenhal, he does conspire with Tywin against the Tyrells after they’ve “defeated Stannis and Robb Stark” – LF’s own words.
For Arya that should be enough to put a treason label on him, as he (at the King’s tournament i season 1) introduced himself to Sansa and Arya as a friend of the family and long time friend of their mother.
LOL, yep, if they have any brains
I loved your phrase, it showed a lot of thought/innate knowledge/research on the subject of the symbols. To carry your thinking a bit further, how about if the WW have appropriated the symbols, not for their own use, but as a way to mock both the Children and Men? If the symbols were originally meant as a sign of joyous belief in renewing life, what better way to mock their beliefs than to form the symbols with pieces parts of beings they killed, mutilated and placed in those designs? The WW have been doing that a long time, long enough for Mance Rayder to make the remark “ever the artists,” at seeing one of the WW ” creations.” The ability to “raise” the dead, but as zombies, rather than functioning human beings is also a form of mockery of those beliefs.
With Golden Company, I believe Cersei would want to take back the Casterly Rock. She mentions in the show “she wants to take back what was stolen from her”. Jamie could be dismissive of the value of the rock as just his childhood home but Cersei has always considered herself as “Tywin with teats”, so I think it would make sense for her to follow her father’s footsteps (Reyes of Castamere; slaughtering the enemy to instil fear of house Lannister). She is not someone who would let her home taken away from her.
Now whether the Golden Company would take the contract or not is a separate issue but I believe this would be Cersei’s plan for Golden Company.
Craigsman,
You are so right. It was filmed the exact same way.
Have a related thought for the wall patterns request for thoughts: do we know if any of the Children are still alive? Clearly they are not north of the wall (just ask Hodor) but perhaps there are some that remain in Westeros south?
If not, and given that Dany does not (yet?) have a maester nor is Oldtown very excited about supporting a dragon-dominated kingdom, perhaps it will be Sam who will arrive to Dragonstone early in Season 8 to interpret the patterns with a more learned eye?
No Dany can’t send to the NW or into exile those who don’t bend the knee yet. She unfortunately will have to burn those who don’t bend untill the message gets out what will happen if you don’t submit to her. Like Aegon her ancestor did.
MCG,
Don’t be quoting me with that stuff. She already pulled the “Look Daddy, I got Dragons!!! Look what I can do to Mimi’s toys cause she took my tiara and she won’t let me play the Pricenss when you said I could!” 🔥
Message got across! Message got across just fine. Those Lannister prisoners had a front seat to what she did, Jaime Lannister saw what she did.! If morons won’t bend when they see Hiroshima, then fuck it. Take your hats off to them and send them on their way, far away to remind everyone what happened there. Message damn well got across already and whoever won’t bend the knee after that, will NEVER bend the knee anyway, and she’ll need to fight for that stupid tiara she’s so set on.
1. I think this has something to do with the lineage of the Others. In the centre is the first Night’s King and each arm of the spiral stands for a different branch of his ‘family’, i.e. each one of Craster’s babies that was ‘turned’.
Speaking of Craster’s babies, I’m wondering what will happen to Little Sam, the last of these, and whether or not he is significant in some way.
2. I think Bronn will still want payment for his services. He will rescue Jaime from the river where they both fell, and make their way back to Kings Landing after speaking with Tyrion. One of the photos shows Tyrion walking through the ashes of the battlefield. He may be going to the river to see if Jaime and Bronn have survived and try to convince them to join with Dany instead of trying to defeat her. They’ll refuse of course. I am looking forward to this reunion if only to see Bronn & Tyrion together again, although Bronn has gone down several notches in my estimation for his attempt to kill Drogon.
3. I think Qyburn’s plan for the Golden Company is clear: the Lannister army will need replacing after being almost annihilated and now that they have the Tyrell gold they can buy their services, delaying payment to the Iron Bank.
It’s certainly possible, but are you sure?
All things considered, we didn’t actually see “Drogonarys” burn thousands of soldiers. We did however see the two of them target the wagon train with the Highgarden loot several times. It COULD be that she does, what she’s always done – spare the common peoples lives, who doesn’t really share Cersei’s hunger for war and indifference to their starvation This in return for their allegiance and will to fight for a better life for themselves… Perhaps the reason we were meant to see the friendly, family-loving side of the young Lannister soldiers in the woods with Arya.
– Just an alternative thought with 35 hours to go 🙂