Many people seek entertainment such as Game of Thrones to escape reality, especially in times such as these, but sometimes reality hits right back at our diversions. Still, though I can’t claim today’s news are unrelated to the Coronavirus, I assure you I don’t bring grim tidings either. In fact, George R.R. Martin has promising news about the progress of the upcoming Game of Thrones prequel TV series, House of the Dragon, as the man himself keeps working on The Winds of Winter; and some of the show’s own costumers have found a way to battle the pandemic in their own inventive way.
Though Martin only recently told his readers about how his writing was progressing, yesterday he saw fit to give us another, similarly unspecific update on his Not A Blog:
“No big news here, but it has been a week or so since my last blog post, so I thought I would say hi. I am still up in the mountains, doing the social distancing rag, and writing WINDS OF WINTER. I have good days and bad days, but I am making progress.”
The writer also discuses the state of the TV industry during the devastating worldwide Coronavirus pandemic, which has ground almost everything to a halt and delayed most upcoming TV shows. Though the projects he’s involved in would be no exception in terms of filming, they’re not there yet: Martin confirms House of the Dragon showrunner Ryan Condal and his writers are still hard at work on their scripts for the first season, which was given a rare go-ahead by HBO (with no pilot to test it out) last October:
“[W]hile nothing is being filmed right now, development is continuing apace, since writers can still write at home. The only thing I am writing myself is THE WINDS OF WINTER, as I have said many times… but with my producer’s hat on, I am still involved in a number of exciting new shows for HBO, and a few film projects as well. When and if any of these make it to the screen, well, that’s always the question… but I do know that Ryan Condal and his team are roaring ahead on the scripts for HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, and that one has a full season’s order from HBO. As for the other stuff I may or may not be involved in, I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you all.”
As murderous as ever, good old George.
Meanwhile, BelfastLive reports that Game of Thrones costume supervisor Caroline Hill and costume assistant Rachael Blair (who are quarantining together as flatmates) are helping as they can by making scrubs for the British National Health Service, the NHS.
“We were all working on various TV and film projects across the UK and further afield, but due to the development of COVID-19 the productions were all put on a hiatus until the situation improves,” Hill lays out. “Everyone went from being extremely busy to all of a sudden having very little to do and being advised to stay at home, so everyone was keen to use their skills and expertise to try and help where possible.”
“We decided the best way to support the healthcare workers was by volunteering to make scrubs for the hardworking NHS [Northern Ireland] staff, which will be distributed directly to the staff that need them most.” She goes on to explain she and her “wonderful team of people” are “highly skilled,” “very adaptable and used to meeting last minute deadlines and producing large quantities of costume,” so this is the perfect way for them to help out a gravely (one could say criminally) underfunded public healthcare system.
If you want to see Caroline and Rachael’s work, you can watch a time lapse video here.
Thank you Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss for giving me a brilliant ending to this magnificent and marvelous series. I’ll always be grateful.
I miss Game of Thrones so I’m really looking forward to House of the Dragon. Still 2 more years.
Let me say it here:
Winds of Winter will be released before Autumn 2020.
It appears nobody dares to say it. I do.
I hope Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss write some episodes in Hous of the Dragon.
“No big news here, but it has been a week or so since my last blog post, so I thought I would say hi. I am still up in the mountains, doing the social distancing rag, and writing WINDS OF WINTER. I have good days and bad days, but I am making progress.”
“I have no updates to give, but I thought I would tease you all just a little bit more anyway.”
There, I fixed it for you 🙂
The LightKing,
Their next movie is called “Metal Lords” Peter Sollet will be directing.
why…. just… Why would you write a comment about how amazing D&D are in a post that is NOT dedicated to them… my god the trolls are going strong lol.
Anyway, George, take your time, you will finished when you feel like it, I prefer to wait 5 more years than getting it now and being disappointed by the writting (I mean, its George, that would be near impossible.
Im also glad that we got some news from HoTD! I am SO hyped about that show man!
And I got a little bit emotional when I read the part about the costume designers, they are so incredibly sweet! The medical services are risking their lives everysingle day to save someone elses, they are the true heros.
Take care and stay safe guys! Lots of love and positive vibes from Spain!
Jack? Is that really you? Or has JackBot 3000 hijacked our Jack Bauer 24?
Please send Proof of Life!
So lul, you’re forecasting a TWOW release date before September 22, 2020 – December 21, 2020.
That means roughly five months from now, i.e., no later than September 21, 2020. I hope you’re right.
“I’d pay good money to see that.”
– S. Clegane.
I have so much admiration for businesses and individuals who channel their talents into making protective gear and all manner of things for the world’s healthcare workers and people in general. Professional companies like Bauer (hockey gear) making protective face shields, local liquor companies making hand sanitizer, those who work with textiles making scrubs and masks…and of course every grandma or aunt or brother or child learning how to make masks. It’s really easy to see all the turmoil, but gosh do we see some lovely actions in all of this as well. ❤
MaxHightower,
Exactly how I feel, Max. Stay safe in Spain, I know things have been pretty rough there. ❤
That gives him about two months to deliver the manuscript. Won´t hold my breath, exactly.
Jack Bauer 24,
Hahaha Nice one troll.
Every wants distance from what these terrible 2 do
Jack Bauer 24,
HAHAHAHAHA
“I have good days and bad days, but I am making progress”
He copied and pasted it from a post from many years ago.
Glad to know GRRM is keeping well and working on The Winds of Winter … and his other stuff [muffled grumble grumble from an impatient ASOIAF book fan]. I wonder if the Coronavirus pandemic is giving GRRM ideas about a greyscale pandemic… (Oh, no! He might rewrite the whole book!)
Such great, inspiring news about the costume team deploying their skills in a meaningful way during the production hiatus. They’re not making sorely needed PPE, but even extra scrubs will be welcome, I’m sure. (Eases the pressure on the laundry service etc.)
A friend and I were on the phone today, contemplating whether we’d start sewing cotton fabric face masks. The head civil servant of the Health and Social care executive in my country gave his personal opinion that yes, it might be advisable for ordinary people to wear home-made masks in public spaces (public transport, shopping etc.) because it might slow the spread of the virus – many might be asymptomatic carriers. Home-made masks won’t protect YOU from infection but they might protect OTHER PEOPLE if you are an asymptomatic carrier of the virus.
Or indeed, snuffling, coughing etc., in which case you should stay at home anyway.
It’s not an official guideline or decree or law… but sewing a few face masks to use when you go shopping, never touching them once you put it on, and immediately after, washing them, along with all your hand and kitchen towels (we’ve been told to wash them daily). I’m trying not to get too paranoid, but right now I’ve got a runny nose – probably not COVID-19 – but I don’t want to pass it on to anybody, especially not to somebody with an underlying health condition, who might later catch COVID-19 on top of my common flu runny nose.
People in my country aren’t used to wearing face masks to protect OTHERS from infection. It’s a very East Asia thing. They do it every year when the seasonal flu hits. It’s a different mindset. Western people are more concerned about protecting THEMSELVES, not OTHER PEOPLE. A home-made cotton mask will not protect YOU, but it just might protect other people around you and help flatten the curve, thus help the health service to cope with the pandemic. Yeah, I might get on my sewing machine.
OK, so not everybody has a sewing machine, and it’s a bit too much to ask people to hand-sew these things; but every one I sew for myself is one less for anybody else to sew; one less to be sewn by a volunteer group… If this becomes a thing, I might volunteer to sew these things. They’re not that complicated, you don’t have to be a master seamstress on the level of Ms Clapton’s GoT seamstresses.
Just as I was beginning to write this post, my dad called me. Mum and dad, both 70+ “risk group” have been self-isolating in their country home since beginning of March. Chopping wood, knitting, sewing, going through archives, writing local history… Pretty much what they do anyway. Except not having us kids and grandkids to stay for “ski holiday”, the second/third week in February, and not having us come to stay for Easter.
Anyway, my dad, a scientifically minded man, an engineer, today was so delighted he had to call me and tell me that today he just remembered he’d bought some “heavy duty masks” a couple of years ago when he was getting rid of a mice infestation (to protect himself from breathing dust from mouse droppings/lair), and now he discovered they still had a stash of a dozen FFP3/N95 masks!
He’s aware that those will protect THEM from any outside nastiness… but won’t protect OTHERS from them. A moral dilemma. Maybe for him, not for me. I love my dad for thinking of the others but I told him not to worry. I’m selfish and I want my 79-year-old dad and my 77-year-old mum to survive this.
I told dad, to quiet his moral qualms, that the best way to get through this is not to catch it. Wear your FFP3 mask without guilt (or, indeed, social awkwardness) when you venture away from home, and you’ll be unlikely to catch it and then to spread it. While your daughter might sew ineffective face mask in a futile show of awareness, even virtual signalling, and maybe prevent a couple of infections. ha ha.
My country’s population is 5,6M, as of 15.4. 2020, we have about 3200 confirmed cases, 76 deaths (most of them old people in care homes or hospitals). We are a mostly sparsely-populated country, we quite naturally “social distance” 1.5 or 2 metres – it’s our natural social distance – so it’s a bit baffling to to be told to social distance even more. OK, dodge other people in the supermarket, try to draw away from the check-out person. Give a smile, say a greeting through the perspex, avoid touching anything.
Our most densely populated areas first got a rampant epidemic, then government/public health officials/local authorities work together to contain it, slow down the epidemic. They mostly forget political point-scoring (and possible profit/money to be made out of this), they realise this is serious and we have to work together.
In my country, it is very difficult for a government to lawfully, constitutionally, to invoke “extraordinary powers” for their government, because Parliament and written constitution curb that power.
The problem with the American set up is that they replicated the English class system, rotten boroghs and all, only replacing “king” with “president”, and now there’s a President who thinks he’s a king in the Loius XIV mould. An American president who doesn’t quite live in the real world. The world where WE all live in. Sigh.
Anyway, on this site many, most are American, and have a different perspective; us Europeans necessarily see things differently. I think it’s good to have a place to exchange ideas, and this is mostly a friendly place. (I,for one, refrain from unfriendly comments.)
Jack Bauer 24,
• Not piling on… Just suggesting that maybe your undying gratitude for “Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss” might have been more appropriate for the comments section under the March 23, 2019 Post “Westworld creator explains Benioff, Weiss andDrogon’s
cameo in episode 2.”
https://watchersonthewall.com/westworld-creators-explain-benioff-weiss-redacteds-cameo-episode-2/
• Or… is it possible that thanking Benioff and Weiss for “giving [you] a brilliant ending to this magnificent and marvelous series” was your way of taking a subtle dig at Big G for his continuing failure to give you any ending to his magnificent and marvelous book series?
If so, well-played, Jack, well-played.
talvikorppi,
Before I read your comment, I just wanted to tell you….
ASNAWP!
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/9e/4a/c39e4a1caf6db9cbc774f7d7fd0d8f8c.png
Absolutely <3
Yes, it is the same here. The chief medical officer of health encouraged wearing non-medical masks to help contain the spread and replace them when they become damp, soiled, avoid touching it while it’s on your face, etc.
Lol,
Please they created the biggest show ever made. They deserve way more respect than some of the fandom gives them.
That’s lovely that they are using their skills and talents to help medical personnel
Same in my country, Talvikorppi. We’ve flattened the curve so far, no catastrophy in hospitals, they even were able to take in patients from other countries, but we still stay in “social distancing”, homeoffice, wear masks, schools and kindergartens are closed until May etc., not to gamble away this fragile success. It’s not easy for everyone here and some folk become twitchy and cutty…
Oh dear, why did I ever come up with ASNAWP 😀 , it’ll haunt me forevermore! 😀
It was a throw-away comment, when I was trying to explain something bigger. For instance, the way young female characters are portrayed. Either you’re a “Sansa” or an “Arya”. Both roles seen through male eyes, male writing. A female writer might’ve seen, written more nuances – GRRM, the skillful, nuanced writer that he is, certainly did.
I liked Arya’s intelligence, her curiosity. Her willingness and ability to pass as “small folk”. Her determination.
But it gets directed wrongly. She is spoiled and bratty. She focuses on revenge. Revenge is never a good thing in GRRM’s world. No matter how much some fans like it. GRRM really hates revenge. Those who get revenge will have to pay dearly for it. Fate, karma, whatever, crashing down on them. So, no. Arya’s massmurder of the Freys isn’t a glorious thing. It’s disturbing and worrying. It’s wrong. The showrunners D&D might’ve let her off the hook, but I can’t see GRRM doing it. Nobody gets a free pass in GRRM’s world.
OK, how many “kills” that we know of? (books)
Arya : stable boy, guardsman in Harrenhall, Dunsen. and his squire, Dareon in Braavos. (in the show, also some Freys, then massmurdering lots of Freys)
Jaime: Aerys II. (some men in battle in a fair fight).
Now tell me who exactly is a better person. Not guided by revenge, able to pull back, reconsider, not kill.
Tenbearsy, I know you haven’t read the books. Read them. Arya isn’t some super ninja princess. She’s a heartbreaking little girl, tomboyish, pampered, a high-born little girl who suddenly has to learn otherwise. Her descent into a killer isn’t glorified by GRRM, it’s tragic.
I really like Arya, but it really irks me when fans adulate her “badassery”. It’s meant to be tragic. A BAD thing.
Don’t get me wrong. I really, really like the character Arya. Going from adorable tomboy to ever darker, eventual killer, that you wonder if you can continue you like.
However, whatever, we have to wait for GRRM’s books to know what happens with Arya. I’m not expecting it to be unadularated ASNWPess.
She’ll find some closure. All GRRM’s stated main characters will. Jon, Bran, Arya, Dany, Tyrion. Latterly added to the bunch, Sansa.
Ten Bears,
Yeah. He has to finish the book very very soon in order for TWOW to be out in the next 5 months.
I don’t think it will happen.
I just want TWOW to be out so it can kill like 90% of fan theories. People talk about same things over and over again, for 9 years now. They are so in love with their own interpretation of the story that they forget that it’s just than, an interpretation.
I don’t want to read more theories about what will Euron do, or Stannis, or YG or LSH or what will happen with Jon.
Just gives the answers already. It’s been 9 years ffs.
Wow about the autumn prediction.
I’m still committed to winter 2020 (dec 21)
But grrm’s comments are far from encouraging.
Btw, my brother just published his newest sci fi book. At least one writer finished a new book!
It would be cool if GRRM would say something like “this week I was living with Tyrion”. Anything would be better than I have good days and bad days. Why even bother writing anything in the blog? He’s a writer so you would think the comment could be a little more colorful.
mau,
Which book? (I’m too lazy to scroll up) TWoW or volume 2 (or 3?) of Targ history?
Sigh.
I’ve never cared much about the Targs. GRRM obviously does. Targ history is all fine and interessting, but I’,m mostly interested in what happen in his (supposedly) main story. Y’know, the Song of Ice and Fire series.
MaxHightower,
Yeeaaah… that man’s never going to finish ASOIAF. The sooner you accept that, the better off you’ll be.
Yeah, this.
The show confirming L+R=J isn’t enough, so “book conspiratorists” go with all kinds of B+A=J+D, R+A=J+M, A+L=J or all kinds of alphabetti soup.
There are far too many fan theories because of such a long time between books. Some “theorists” can denigrate the show because “it won’t be like that in the books”, but if the books ever come out, oh bhoy, aren’t they gonna be dissappointed!
Most elaborate fan theories are going to come crashing down, GRRM is going to prove to be a “KISS” (Keep It Simple, Stupid) writer, after all; and all that fandom will hate him forevermore because they could’ve written his stuff better than he actually did. ha ha.
talvikorppi,
“I… just.. want them to stop” – Loras Tyrell
MaxHightower,
Max, I’m sure Light King types his posts with his tongue firmly in his cheek. It may be best not to rise to the bait (and I’m one who doesn’t hold the showrunners/writers in disdain and contempt the way some do).
[Image by Acyn Torabi]
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVsoDf7UEAA1wJH?format=jpg&name=900×900
“Hold the Door!”
Ten Bears,
Credit – original photograph by Joshua Bickel of the Columbus Dispatch. (Hodor photoshopped in later by Torabi?)
🧟♂️🧟🧟♂️🧟♂️🧟♀️🧟♂️🧟
I have nothing but praise for those who are giving their time to make masks, gowns, scrubs and face shields for the front line workers.
Keep going George, we’re all waiting.
Looking forward to HoD. Crossing my fingers that it is satisfying.
Thank you to WoW for keeping us informed. You are very appreciated.
Stay healthy and safe everyone!
talvikorppi,
You are so right!
Arya is a little girl who’s lost her world. In the books revenge is not hers, it belongs to LSH and the Brotherhood.
Martin’s way of writing women is univocal. You see that in Catelyn, Sansa, Cersei. Brienne is a little better because Martin wanted to play with the character of a woman who is not considered beautiful by the seciety she lives in.
Sansa is too much of a girl, most feminine, polite, “girly”; Cersei is only evil and of limited mental capacity leaning to some type of mental illness; Catelyn is too much a mother and nothing else.
Arya is also very young; perhaps Martin wants to play with her growing up between being a “tomboy” and a “girl”. She is not clearly neither of these two and there are no signs that she’ll be like Brienne. She explores both, even though she doesn’t give the latter too much focus.
We’ll see.
Honest question. If HOTD doesn’t come out for another two years, are enough people going to care anymore by then?
I’m sure there will be a certain segment of fans that will always be interested, but I’m talking about enough people to make the show a big success.
I think there is still a chance for it to be successful without question, but I think HBO needs to be careful that they don’t sit on this for too long. Of course, you don’t want to rush it either, but I feel like only the hardest of hardcore fans would stay invested if this doesn’t come out until 2022.
…and thank you to Caroline and Rachel for contributing something positive to the situation. We need all the positivity we can get these days.
Mr Derp,
If the show is good it will be successful.
Mr Derp,
Oh yeah. If Better Call Saul can still be going stronger-than-ever after five seasons, then HotD certainly will too, given the incredible popularity of its predecessor.
Farimer123,
I don’t think BSC is that popular.
Psst, book readers eagerly awaiting TWoW: I time-traveled to 2023, when it had finally been released, and I found a review of it:
“Who would have thought after twelve long extremely stupid years of fan speculation, an entire completed television series, occasional sample chapters, and presumably an author sitting around going “BbBbBbBb” all day long, that the book would not only be finally released, but it would be worth every nanosecond of waiting and would be of such astounding depth and quality that every previous conventionally good fiction book shrivels before its mightiness like its a cold day in the locker room?!”
mau,
BCS ratings have never touched the ratings of Breaking Bad’s final season (when it was significantly boosted in visibility by Netflix), but it still performs respectably and its an absolute critical darling. Bottom line is: it hasn’t been cancelled, and it’s being allowed to continue through its sixth season, which the show-runners have confirmed will be the last.
Farimer123,
On, no. I don’t think that show is a failure. Not at all.
When it comes to HOTD the most important thing is that the show is good and well made. People will watch it if it’s a good show. I think there will also be a lot of people who didn’t watch GoT who will be fans of HOTD.
mau,
Fantasy television series nowadays sell like hotcake, largely thanks to Thrones, so long as they’re at least not-terrible. Just look at the Witcher – from everything I’ve heard, it’s kinda like Thrones but with the violence and nudity cranked up to 11, one star with everyone else orbiting him as opposed to an ensemble cast, and about 20% of the nuance in the writing.
“If I ain’t better than Big, I’m the closest one.” – Jay Z 2001 The Blueprint
Even if HotD is mediocre in comparison, people will still watch it in droves. No way its getting cancelled unless its entire cast and crew are found guilty of hiding a massive drug and child sex trafficking ring.
Farimer123,
Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss should have written The Witcher series and create a new masterpiece like they did with Game of Thrones and the marvelous final season, because the first season of The Witcher was medicore at best.
The LightKing,
Ironically, season 1 of the Witcher has a higher rating than season 8 of Game of Thrones does on most sites that rate shows.
Mr Derp,
Let me know when the Witcher’s been nominated for 32 Emmys and won Outstanding Drama.
Lol, so sensitive…and predictable. I mean, if you like season 8 then great, but let’s not start putting down another show in order to prop another one up. It’s a bad look. It’s petty.
It’s even more petty when the criticism isn’t even justified. You can’t say something like The Witcher needs help from the people who wrote season 8 of GoT when The Witcher has been received more positively than season 8 of GoT.
It doesn’t take 32 Emmys to know bullshit when I see it. Have a good one.
Except they also wrote Seasons 1-7 for the most part and some of those seasons were received better then Season 1 of The Witcher. They didn’t just write Season 8 🤔
Proof of life confirmed 😃
Jack Bauer 24,
You mean “all” of the previous seasons as opposed to “some”?
Well I meant they wrote all of the seasons give or take the handful of episodes George wrote.
Mr Derp,
Alright, sorry for trashing the Witcher. I don’t feel strongly enough about it to argue its merits and faults. But whenever I see series like it, I just remember lines from those Eminem songs:
“And there’s a million of us just like me
Who cuss like me, who just don’t give a fuck like me
Who dress like me, walk, talk and act like me
And just might be the next best thing, but not quite me”
or
“Here’s a concept that works
Twenty million other white rappers emerge
But no matter how many fish in the sea
It’ll be so empty without me”
Like, if Lord of the Rings is Black Sabbath, Game of Thrones is Metallica, then the Witcher is… idk, Megadeth?
i can’t even!
i got the picture of these weapongrade morons on my every-morning-have-a-shit-read of the NYT-for-free-app on my phone, and hell do i hate them! and hell, will the virus build statues that remind all of us of their super-spreader-merits.
meanwhile… some x-24 and some others are continuing the most important debate since “did-Robb-Stark-have-nukes?”
admins, please: the trolling gets Artemisia-sized. could you please do something?
My comment was in response to light king’s assertion that the Witcher needs help from D&D because season 1 of the Witcher was received worse than season 8 of Game of Thrones. That’s factually incorrect. Seasons 1-7 of GoT have nothing to do with this at all.
Try to keep up Jack.
I haven’t seen the Witcher. It looks pretty stupid. Perhaps it’s the equivalent of Creed or Nickelback?
I’ve no doubt that seasons 1-6 of GoT are probably better than the Witcher will ever be. However, seasons 7-8 are not as much of a lock for me as it might be for others 🙂
Edit.
Mr Derp,
Who cares about ratings? GoT season 8 was far better. I even find Stranger Things better although I don’t like the show.
Season 8 was part of a hate attack campaign that had numerous people rate the show poorly with multiple accounts. It’s a tainted comparison.
Jack Bauer 24,
People on this very site have confirmed that they bombed those sites with overly positive ratings to “balance things out” as well. It’s tainted on both sides, Jack.
Not even close to the same numbers lol. If we look at the extremes on both sides, look at the number of 10 ratings compared to the 1 ratings.
Perhaps that’s a reflection of a lot of people not liking the final season, Jack.
Besides, the way in which people handled their dissatisfaction with the final season is a separate issue. It’s clear a lot of people did not like the final season. Some handled it poorly, others did not. Same goes for those who liked the final season.
You’re going to need to come up with evidence for those claims. Otherwise, it’s nothing more than an opinion. You have no idea why some voted a 1 vs. a 10. It could be trolling, and maybe it’s not. Unless, like I said, you have evidence.
talvikorppi,
“…I know you haven’t read the books. Read them. Arya isn’t some super ninja princess. She’s a heartbreaking little girl, tomboyish, pampered, a high-born little girl who suddenly has to learn otherwise. Her descent into a killer isn’t glorified by GRRM, it’s tragic.
I really like Arya, but it really irks me when fans adulate her “badassery”. It’s meant to be tragic. A BAD thing.
Don’t get me wrong. I really, really like the character Arya. Going from adorable tomboy to ever darker, eventual killer, that you wonder if you can continue you like.
However, whatever, we have to wait for GRRM’s books to know what happens with Arya. I’m not expecting it to be unadularated ASNWPess.”
———-
For all my Arya superfandom, I’ll be the first to admit that it’s entirely possible the showrunners were influenced by the popularity of show! Arya and Maisie Williams with the TV audience, and made her into a super ninja assassin warrior princess. I’d also suggest that they saw how much the fans responded to the Arya & The Hound road show, and revisited that pairing in the final seasons – perhaps at the expense of Arya & Jon.
It’s also my understanding they borrowed, cut and pasted other characters’ storylines from the books, and grafted them onto Arya’s post-Braavos storylines on the show, e.g. the books’ LSH decimation of House Frey, and Lord Manderly’s
in-progress “Frey Pies” party.
Plus, I’d bet the farm that if Big G ever finishes the books there is no way Arya is going to singlehandedly defeat the AotD.
I suppose ASNAWP is therefore a show-only creation.
Efi,
”…Arya is a little girl who’s lost her world. In the books revenge is not hers, it belongs to LSH and the Brotherhood.”
***
“Arya is also very young; perhaps Martin wants to play with her growing up between being a “tomboy” and a “girl”. She is not clearly neither of these two and there are no signs that she’ll be like Brienne. She explores both, even though she doesn’t give the latter too much focus.
We’ll see.”
—————
I have not read the books, except for a few famous passages including Arya’s “Needle was Jon Snow’s smile” internal monologue (adapted for the show w/o words); and the “Harwin you have to know me!” scene (not included on the show).
I’ve also read the TWOW “Mercy” sample chapter (sort of partly adapted into the show’s S4e1 scene with Polliver + S5e10 scene with Meryn F*cking Trant.)
Based only on these snippets from the books I didn’t get the impression Arya would become a revenge-obsessed, full-on psycho vigilante.
I could be wrong though. Perhaps she’ll be on that dangerous path until someone or something pulls her off the vengeance trail before she’s too far gone…
But wait: Don’t all of our prognostications about characters’ ultimate fates in the books presuppose that GRRM will complete “A Dream of Spring”? Even the most optimistic fans aren’t convinced that will ever happen.
I’d say Arya is on a dangerous path by the end of ADWD but I don’t think she’s lost everything of herself yet. She is training with the Faceless Men right now, has killed out of vengeance, and I’d agree with talvikorppi’s assessment that Arya is “a heartbreaking little girl, tomboyish, pampered, a high-born little girl who suddenly has to learn otherwise. Her descent into a killer isn’t glorified by GRRM, it’s tragic.”
As for the Freys, while LSH has/will brutally kill any Frey (or anybody associated with the Freys, Boltons, Lannisters, who had anything to do with the Red Wedding) and Manderly did make his… pies…, the house is not yet wiped out as it was in episodes 610/701. How/if House Frey is wiped out remains to be seen in the books… but if you can bring yourself to it (I know you’re hesitant due to the possibility we will never see TWOW or ADOS, which I totally understand), definitely read Arya’s chapters — if only Arya’s chapters. I think they give you a clearer idea of her storyline in the books than a summary 🙂
Ten Bears,
This link may help navigate Arya’s chapters throughout each book if you decide to take the plunge! It lists each POV character and the chapter number associated with it! (POV chapters under ‘Cat of the Canals’, ‘The Blind Girl’, and ‘The Ugly Little Girl’ are also Arya POV chapters)
Speaking for myself, I have some nagging hope and I’d never characterize myself as optimistic but I also fear that hope is doomed. As Savitar above mentioned, GRRM has said these things before. I expect he’s trying to focus but progressing through the story seems to have been a challenge for him as the books get more and more involved, complex, and the universe grows bigger — from AFFC to ADWD (during which time Neil Gaiman made his May 2009 post, ‘George R.R. Martin is not your bitch’ post) to TWOW and beyond.
Let’s not create false equivalence between those who liked the last season and those who did not. We know that sub with million users had far more power to review bomb some sites than several people here.
And the last season of GoT should be compared to the last season of the Witcher, if that show even survives until the end.
For now, showrunner of Witcher clearly can learn a lot from what Benioff and Weiss did with first season. She is lucky enough to have a complete book series, but I’m not so sure that will help her.
MaxHightower,
Let me get this straight. You’re calling people trolls for expressing their admiration for GOT and the men who created it on a GOT fan site. The purpose of this site is for us fans to celebrate the show. You’re bound to run into us from time to time. I mean, if such posts offend you, I have to ask, why are you here? There have been multiple articles that had nothing to do with Martin or the books, yet people posted how “the books are so much better.” You don’t hear us whinging about it. Also, calling someone a troll for no reason is, in and itself, an act of trolling.
As for Martin, you have it wrong. The first three books were written in a relatively short amount of time, and they were focused and well paced. The latter two took longer and were meandering, full of filler. Taking a shorter amount of time doesn’t mean lesser quality, it means more focused storytelling, which is what his books desperately need.
Young Dragon,
The question is, why we shouldn’t admire and give respect to Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss? We would not be here without them. They were inexperienced and have never done anything like this but they created the biggest and best show ever which is among shows like The Sopranos, The Wire. That deserves more than just respect. I will always be greatful for 8 brilliant seasons and a marvelous final episode 🙂
Pigeon,
• Yes!
• Meanwhile, BelfastLive reports that Game of Thrones costume supervisor Caroline Hill and costume assistant Rachael Blair (who are quarantining together as flatmates) are helping as they can by making scrubs for the British National Health Service, the NHS.
****
“We decided the best way to support the healthcare workers was by volunteering to make scrubs for the hardworking NHS [Northern Ireland] staff, which will be distributed directly to the staff that need them most.” She goes on to explain she and her “wonderful team of people” are “highly skilled,” “very adaptable and used to meeting last minute deadlines and producing large quantities of costume,” so this is the perfect way for them to help out a gravely (one could say criminally) underfunded public healthcare system.
• I think one thing we can all agree on is that anyone who had anything to do with GoT costumes did an amazing job. Brilli… I mean fabulous.
Mr Derp,
I thought the Witcher was one of the worst shows I ever saw. Bad writing. Bad acting. Bad CGI. I could go on and on.
talvikorppi,
D&D didn’t let Arya off the hook. She chose to stop going down that path. They even said back in season 7 the path of revenge is not a good path to go down.
Who’s Peter Sollet?
For a second there I thought you meant Peter Salette, who sang “Heart of Mine” (2000) from the Edward Norton movie “Keeping the Faith.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENWWc0oErLI
——-
Young Dragon,
Damn straight about GRRM. He hammered out the first three books in just about six years, with two years for each, and that was meant to be the first half of ASOIAF. After that though…
On the bright side, he’s still creative enough and seems to love fleshing out his world, as evidenced by all the anthology and background books. But in terms of what matters most – the actual story – to put it nicely, he’s had a severe case of writer’s constipation for the last twenty years, some combination of lack of direction and too many ideas. To put it harshly, he’s been failing miserably at writing his own series for the last twenty years. It’s like if JRR Tolkien never wrote Return of the King.
Ten Bears,
Yeah, that’s my opinion too. I think in her ADwD chapters she learns to control her emotions. She still kills for revenge, but apparently she’s heading toward putting a measure to that. She also comes to terms with death as a necessity of life (that’s what I see in her arc in THoBaW, apart from her training and learning how to kill). In the end perhaps for Arya it also boils down to justice rather than revenge -because as I said revenge is LSH’s business and it’s totally blind, nonsensical and connected to the Lord of Light in addition (not a good thing).
As for Martin, I’m one of the optimists. And I’ve said before that if he doesn’t complete ASoIaF, 8.6 will be the last flavor of its ending for his readers. That’s a powerful motive, the way I see it. The problem is, even if WoW will be published before the end of the year, ADoS will take another two years to complete. ADoS will not be as difficult as ADwD because everything comes together already in WoW. But it will finish only if he’s really focused on it and not distracted by his various projects. That’s a bit of a longshot though. But being 70 y-o nowadays is not that bad, so age is not a problem. He has time, what he needs to find is the concentation to finish the damn thing.
Efi,
Two yeara for ADOS? No way. And people are telling how next book will easier for him for 15 years now.
Writing conlusions and closing story is much harder. And he did not start with closing part yet.
Farimer123,
He doesn’t have control over his own story, simple as that.
Solution for that was just to expand the story more and more and not deal with real writing challenges like Tyrion and Dany’s relationship, Jon and Dany’s relationship, Stark children finally doing something important for the plot, because they did nothing in the first 5 books, Daenerys’ invasion, WW’s invasion,…
So he just adds more and more characters and storylines so he won’t have to deal with these problems. He also wrote World of Ice and Fire and Fire and Blood Vol. 1 for world building, so he can avoid resolving narrative problems that he created.
mau,
I think Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss should finish the books. May be Mr. Cogman too? Since they brought the story to a satisfying conclusion. That should be the solution to this disaster.
mau,
No, you’re very wrong. Writing the ending is always easier because you have the whole story. The introduction is much more difficult, which is why I always instruct my students to leave it for last, even after the conclusions. As for me I always write sth to begin with just to get the text flowing and then return and correct it. Which I also advise my students to do, not that they hear me, hence the low grades, lol.
That said, the complexity of ASoIaF certainly won’t make it easy for Martin, that’s true, but two years is still feasible (not that he’ll do it).
mau,
It is not a plot driven book, it is a character driven book.
So I have lots of objections to that idea.
Efi,
Writing an ending here is much harder than introducing bunch of storylines and characters to just delay dealing with real writing challenges.
He has to bring all these characters and storylines together and it is clear that he struggles with that part.
Efi,
That’s just an excuse that GRRM fans have. The first 3 books created all these iconic characters and the plot moved just fine.
This idea that you have to stop the plot in order to develop characters is very wrong.
Developing both things at the same time is what makes every story great.
I think before Autumn 2020 is a bit to early, yes Martin may finish his books this year and before that time.
Right now he is still writing winds of winter as he says, and he says he is making progress. Still I don’t expect him to finish this month. So let’s say that he finish writing winds of winter that normally he could release the books before autumn. But there is something else going on: Covid-19. I’m a book reader, gamer, tv watcher and in all 3 of those delays are happening. Because there comes so much more to come than just writing and it lays in the store. The biggest problem right now is that logistic wise to get everything in the store is a huge problem. Books/games etc are delayed already. The big game last of us will be delayed and probably a long time.
Same with AsoiaF, these saga is a huge phenomenal saga that is worldwide, that means when the books will be released, it need to be in the stores worldwide. Shipments are already delaying. Also printing the books will also take men power and that also have delays.
Then the thing is once everything is moving again, will his publisher give Martin a heads-up before every other writer that has delayed. Will they just go: You will wait a month more, first asoiaf. I think after how long we wait, the publisher will release in order how they initially wanted to release the books.
It is also more plausible that even if winds is done earlier, that they wait till around Christmas to release the books. What better way of selling a lot in one time when it’s a a Holiday?
The LightKing,
I would actually love to see D&D team up with someone like Matthew Stover – who wrote the Revenge of the Sith novelization, widely considered one of the best Star Wars books ever written – and create a novelization of GoT S7 & S8 combined. Those two seasons were conceived together, they belong together. It would give a ton of insight into what the characters are thinking in crucial moments, and it would probably be the closest thing to ADOS that fans will ever get.
Perhaps they could help him a little. It’s not an impossible idea; after all they have a decent amount of book-writing experience themselves, just like George had a decent amount of television experience. Hell, one of the books Benioff wrote a while back pretty much inspired The Last of Us. But as for D&D finishing ASOIAF in earnest… I don’t think you could pay them to do that. Besides, they seem to have faith in George’s ability to finish the story someday, even if few others do. The only way I could see it happening is if George suddenly became very ill and knew he wasn’t going to be able to finish, then decided to let them finish his books with some detailed notes he whips up.
Everything revolves around D&D I think with some. Wait until they found out there are other shows out there will brilliant writers.
And I agree I rather him taking his time, I rather wait a bit longer and get an amazing book. And I think dream will be easier to write because at the end of winds I suspect he arrived at the place he always wanted to go. while with winds he still needed to work with his changes from Feast and Dance. Also he won’t add new POVs. And I suspect new secondary characters is also not really happening, at least not as many that we got before. So he probably will kill of many more characters than new characters arrive which also make it easier.
And I agree the customers are amazing what they did.
How is it in Spain now?
kevin1989,
”Right now he is still writing winds of winter as he says, and he says he is making progress.”
Ya think?
Well that would not have been a good choice for either netflix and D&D. Let them do another show. The thing is with Witcher is that it has already a heavily fanbase (books and show) a bigger fanbase than the story of asoiaf had before season 1 aired. That means that Netflix needs to make good choices when it comes to the once writing the show.
So I’m not going to talk about if D&D could do it, they probably could if they read into the story of Witchers. But netflix needs to think about the books and game fans. Especially the later, I think still now more people played witchers games (especially witcher 3 which is one of the best games ever made, 10,0) than the tv show, that’s because witcher fans are hard to please (harder than GoT at least), and many witcher game fans were also got fans, they watched the show. And they were disappointed to say the least. They already stated that any show made by D&D they won’t watch, and with witcher fans this was not a small minority who think that, it was a majority that think that. If D&D wrote Witchers even if it would be brilliant and better than what they got now, they would not have watched (they would say season 1 could be great but the last will fail again), and the show would have bombed, and if Witchers would have lost netflix money Netflix could have closed it’s doors.
Netflix played it safe by giving it to a very unknown writer who I think is still a fan and delivered at least the standards netflix wants (which I say is not really that high compared to HBO). It’s better for D&D also that they just wait till the whole debacle of GoT lay down (not giving an opinion if that was grounded or not more that their image got a big hit with the last season of season 8) and let them wait a couple of years and make something else. Look for instance at Damon Lindelof, he got a lot of critic after season 6 of LOST, but he waited a couple of years, and LEFTOVERS got his carreer back on track. And doesn’t he make another show on HBO now?
I think that’s not really that difficult to achieve.
Young Dragon,
I think what Max thinks (and what many people think i guess, at least I feel a bit like that). Everytime a news article of GRRM and the books come that is not related to the show or the prequel that is not related to the main show. It still needs to be about D&D and the writing of the main-show. Does it matter that some talk about D&D there? No not at all, we can talk about everything here that’s the point of this forum, we talk about other shows, about Covid this weeks and more.
But what is a bit at least for me, getting old and annoying is that the only thing commented is a comment about D&D and then only time reacting is when a debate about show vs book emerges. Or show vs other show. We don’t read any comment about what the article is about: Winds of winter, House of the dragon and the costumers working on a great cause to help stop the spread of COVID-19.
And it’s the same old sentence stating in every article. You can already predict that next time an article comes once again it will be about D&D. “house of the dragon has it’s release date” “D&D are brilliant thanks for 8 brilliant seasons” etc. It’s like an old recorder that keeps on hanging on one part of the LP instead of letting it go and play another part of the LP.
Do I dislike the enthusiasm of that some have for D&D? No, I think it’s great that some have that great of an admiration for them and shows that. Do I like it when they would give news about D&D new project or some other stuff? no. Do I think the same sentence need to be said over and over again in every article? no, it’s getting old.
But sometimes I wonder if they even believe it themselves, why else state it over and over again.
and about Martin and the books: Why do some always resort to whataboutism?
Stating a problem with the books doesn’t make the show out of a sudden more brilliant. It doesn’t make season 8 out of a sudden brilliant for everyone.
It’s something I personally don’t like in debates and it’s done a lot by show-fans. State something bad about the show: But the books….
It’s a bit like:
Little John why did you steal that cookie out of the cookiejar?
John: But mum, last week little Jenny stole 1 euro out of your purse.
A mistake of somebody else doesn’t make out of a sudden the other right.
mau,
You may think that but many writers who wrote saga’s showed that the last book is much easier than the one before. It’s the place you as a writer want to go for years and you finally arrived there. While the book before is still many times a mystery how you will fill that in.
It also has less Storylines, characters etc to deal with (most of the time).
An example is Harry Potter (also read what JKR told why she found book 7 easier to write than book 5 and 6, book 5 she found the hardest to write), and Stephen King is an example and many more.
Especially with GRRM who will probably wait till he deliver winds until he finished 300 page for dream already (always have done that) we can see him writing dream sooner than he did with winds. But I have to say 2 years is a bit fast. I think 3/5 years.
Efi,
This.
mau,
Efi just told that she is a teacher about writing books? shows? (what kind of writing do you teach efi?).
I think she does know something more than us 2 then about how to write a story.
Farimer123,
Last of us is great.
And that will never happen. GRRM won’t let anybody else finish his saga and get money from it. He already stated that many times. Either he himself finish it, or nobody else does. He maybe will make sure his wife can publish a book with his notes and summery that he wanted, but nobody else will ever finish the books for him.
Ten Bears,
I’m always an optimist Ten Bears. But to get realistic. I really think he is writing and writing more than normally. But I’m not certain that he will be done on time to release the books before December.
kevin1989,
lol I am a writer.
Farimer123,
It could be interesting, but I don’t think Benioff and Weiss want to be stuck with Westeros forever.
They want to do other things, and some of the things they are making for Netflix (The Chair and Metal Lords) souns really completely different from Game of Thrones.
kevin1989,
Rowling/King and Martin have nothing in common in the way the aproach writing.
And you are just assuming that by the end of The Winds of Winter there will be less characters and storylines. People expected Daenerys in Westeros by the end of ADWD. Didn’t happen.
He has to show first that he knows how to bring all those characters and storylines together. For all we know Daenerys could still be in Meereen at the end of TWOW.
Didn’t know that. What did you write? 😀 I’m very exciting to know. I suspect something with fantasy?
kevin1989,
No. I write theater plays. 😀
mau,
I don’t suspect that. He already state that Tyrion and Dany meet up roughly 2/3 of the book. That means the battle of Meereen will be over, what she learned in Vaes Dothrak. We don’t even know if they meet in Meereen, maybe they meet in Volantis. We don’t know how Meereen will come out of the battle.
I don’t expect Dany to arrive in Westeros in Winds. But I expect her to be at least left Meereen and that we will see 1/3 with Tyrion (1/3 for me is because we have 2 characters Tyrion and Dany. I think roughtly 5 chapters together) I expect it to end with her ending her Essos saga. Maybe in Volantis which she still need to go to.
But who knows maybe he needs 3 books let’s hope not.
This. It reeks of overcompensation.
Whether that’s the case or not I don’t know, but when someone repeats the same sentence over and over again on nearly every single article for nearly an entire year, I would personally consider that a prime example of overcompensation, and, honestly, I think that’s akin to trolling as well.
mau,
If Winds comes out and Dany still hasn’t set out for Westeros by the end of it, book readers are absolutely fucked.
Farimer123,
I mean even is she sails for Westeros at the end of TWOW, I’m not sure that those who thought last two seasons were rushed have any reason to be happy.
End of TWOW – end of S6.
ADOS – S7 and S8
It will leave just one book for Dany’s invasion and WW’s invasion and this was what we got in the last 13 episodes.
mau,
so, there is no way GRRM will finish in 2 books, or at all. Somewhere along the way he forgot how to do plot. Coupled with having no competent editor telling him no or putting fire under his ass, he won’t get anywhere with the story.
We’ve had 2 Arianne sample chapters and she is still nowhere near fAegon. 2 Tyrion sample chapters and he still isn’t anywhere near Dany or doing anything of note. And exactly that is the problem. He forgot how to do plot. So much time and book pages wasted in the last few books on just GRRM indulging himself.
#100 ?
Mr Derp,
Thank you Mr. Derp for giving me a brilliant ending to this magnificent and marvelous comment section. I’ll always be grateful.
(Just kidding of course)
Ten Bears,
Brilliant response Mr. TB. You should consider giving D&D a hand in writing their next series because season 8 was mediocre at best. I’ve no doubt they’ll always be grateful.
(mostly kidding)
mau,
I don’t think he “stopped the plot”. It happens only in Meereen. Meereen is boring, I’ll give you that. I struggled with Daenerys’ chapters, but not with the rest. Also, I don’t even know why on earth did he want to write Cersei as a PoV, but that’s personal sympathies talking… 🙄
Efi,
Aw man, don’t tell me you see Cersei as just a one-dimensional evil baddie…
Oh, and inb4 “tHe ShOw MaDe HeR lIkE tHaT” the show actually made Cersei more sympathetic than in the books, and that continued all the way through S8.
kevin1989,
Academic.
Now I’m writing sth myself and once again I’m struggling with the “subplots”, lol.
Unlike Martin, who keeps putting new stuff in, I’d like to keep them down.
But I don’t see that happening.
For sth to be successful writing, I have to make it edgy.
For making edgy I have to include all the stupid “subplots” I don’t want.
Darn! Why do I always have to choose the most difficult subject?
mau,
What do you write?
Tron79,
Speaking about writing…
Congrats to your brother! You must be very proud of him!
How does he feel?
I remember when my first book came out I looked at it and thought “is that it?”
I expected to be a little more excited about it. Everybody said how proud they felt, how happy and complete.
Instead, it was only relief I felt. “Phew, it’s over” kind of thing.
Farimer123,
In the books? She’s an evil bitch.
In the show she’s much more interesting and nuanced.
Book Cersei always thinks of bringing death to her “enemies” (even if they are children), she thinks of revenge just for spite. She also uses sex to get what she wants and dreams of power in a manly kind of way -she’d actually like to be a man and she thinks she’s smart only she is not at all smart, on the contrary she’s rather stupid. Even her kids, she sees them as extension of herself and likes to dominate them only for getting the power because of them. Book Cersei would imprison both Joffrey and Tommen if she could so that she acts as queen regent all her life and would terrorize Myrcella’s husband for no reason at all.
So no, book Cersei has a mental disorder of some type, probably related to narcissism, but there’s more to it. She’s a “villain” but not in the classic way, just mean, she’s the sick type of villain, she’s a villain because she’s a psychopath.
Compared to that, show Cersei is far supperior. She’s unscrupulous because she is mean, not because there’s a genetic disorder of some type.
Oh, thanks to Efi, I saw this now! I must have missed it! Congratulations to your brother, Tron! Nice!!
I remember feeling both excitement and relief! But the only bit of writing of mine that was published (“published”) was my grad thesis and I don’t think that really counts because the school publishes everyone’s thesis and stores them in the library. But I did like how it was all done up in hardcover and professionally bound in the school’s colours with the titles engraved on the cover and on the spine. It is now on a shelf somewhere in Scott Library, collecting dust :’) (And I hope it stays that way — closed and collecting dust. So many things I’d change… like the thesis T___T).
Would it be worth starting a forum thread for the discussion on relative merits of books and show if we could try to keep it polite and not troll each other. If I did so I’d have to think whether to put it in the spoiler or non-spoiler part of the forum as there could be potential spoilers for people who might like to read the books but haven’t yet. I have mixed feelings. I liked book Ellaria as a woman who had suffered but not lost compassion, though season 4 Ellaria was more akin to her book counterpart. Of course I can’t promise people wouldn’t troll. I don’t think the showrunners are infallible but don’t hate them either and didn’t mind them cutting out some of the subplots. I don’t think winning a voucher in the annual short story competition run by a society I belong to qualifies me as a professional writer!
Sorry, I also meant to say above:-
Well done Tron’s brother hence the waffling about my writing status.
kevin1989,
Like I said, people mention the books in articles that are about the show all the time. I may be wrong, but I didn’t notice anyone having any problems with them posting about the books or calling them trolls. If Max is getting annoyed, he could skip over their posts and not bother to read them. His annoyance certainly doesn’t give him the right to call them trolls.
The reason they state it over and over again is because that is how they feel. You don’t have to like it, but you have to accept their right to express themselve accordingly.
It’s not whataboutism. They’re not excusing the show’s flaws by pointing out the flaws in the books. They simply feel that D&D are great writers and are both thankful for their hard work on the show and hopeful that they’ll lend their talent to the new series, which wouldn’t be happening without D&D turning GOT into a huge success.
Efi,
What kind of field? If I may ask? Sounds difficult to write academic.
I’d say that is impressive — especially considering it was a competition!
Young Dragon,
True but for me personally, it feels uncomfortable that not even the article itself is discussed. Nothing against that they do it, it just feels out of place. but when a article get into a new direction about the show books real life events it feels less contrived.
I totally read over it, was your comment in moderation?
That’s great 😀 but also difficult I must say, it’s hard work (with lots of soul and heart in it) but with little to no pay. People like you keep the entertainment industry for what it is, the great side of it. And what kind of genre? 😀
And sorry above about my not so nice comment, I was a bit in a hurry this afternoon and wanted to reply before making dinner and I felled later that my comment was not really that nice as I should have been. Sorry for that.
BTW, Sophie Turner is brilliant in her new Quibi show Survive.
Dame of Mercia,
I was much more moved by, and proud of, my prizes for the books, than the books themselves. So yeah, it’s a big thing. Perhaps it doesn’t qualify for “professional” since you haven’t pursued writing more, but it definitely proves that there’s something there.
Jack Bauer 24,
I’ve heard about it. Unfortunately I don’t have access to that show but people say that she’s good.
In any case ST is very talented and still very young (and gorgeous), and I think she has a lot to give to the industry.
kevin1989,
Like it or not, the best episode of GoT (The Winds of Winter) is a creation of Mr. Benioff and Mr. Weiss and their brilliant writing. A lot of people in this fandom hate them and write shit about them, what these two don’t deserve. I am sure that the later generations will appreciate their hard work more. I will always be greatful!
Adrianacandle,
I feel more excited when I’m in the process of writing tbh (it’s a professional perversion, lol).
The moment it’s finished and it’s delivered to the editor/publisher, I forget about it and move on, so much so that I often need to be reminded what I’ve written.
Unlike your school, mine had no such provision (or, it did, but you had to wait long years). So I took my book to a publisher. My first publisher was brilliant, he did a fantastic job; my second was a failure, I regretted it a thousand times taking my book to him.
Happy birthday to a very talented and much-loved actor, and one of my true favourites, Sean Bean! ❤🎂😊
kevin1989,
It’s no secret, I think I’ve said this before, I write history.
Academic writing is difficult because it has to be documented and every little thing that you write needs to be proved and cross-checked. Sometimes it’s like playing the detective, trying to dig out dirty little secrets, but the material can be very varied and perplexing, creating many “subplots”. You have to know what to include and where to stop, otherwise it will never end.
I think this is actually his 4th book published. He has a couple in the teen fiction arena, and this last one isn’t teen. Alot of them are Sci Fi. He’s also had stories published in magazines. I remember when I was little he owned a paperback bookstore for awhile where you trade two used books for one. I don’t think he made much money on that business, but I know he loved it and he had lots of books to read!!
Yeah, and your publisher probably said..”where’s the next one!” so you don’t get much time to enjoy it I suppose.
There’s a 90 day free trial for Quibi still I believe. Is it a region thing why you don’t have access. She actually shows some really good range in this show.
Sophie Turner Quibi Series
“Survive” – Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoiXqauhDHA
——
What the f*ck’s a Quibi?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70RijbACjzk
——-
Mr Derp,
No, expressing one’s opinion in an appropriate manner is not akin to trolling. At all.
kevin1989,
The article is being discussed by a lot of people. The problem is that besides COVID-19, there’s nothing in the article really worth discussing. Martin simply states that House of Dragon and Winds of Winter are still being worked on, which isn’t much information.
Your general statement is correct, but not when you actually break it down and apply it to this instance.
Definition: “a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain.”
It checks all the boxes. It upsets people, it’s off-topic for this article, and it’s provoking readers into emotional responses. You yourself have criticized other posters in the past for saying something off-topic.
You don’t have to be swearing or acting out to be a troll. That’s actually the genius of it. A troll isn’t the one who gets involved in the arguments. They’re just the ones who provoke the arguments between others. It’s not intended to get chatters A and B into an argument. It’s intended to get chatter C involved who gets involved based on their own smug sense of self-satisfaction to correct either chatter A or B, which then creates chatters D through who knows what to get involved.
Glad to hear Martin is “making progress”, nine years on since the last ASOIF book was released…
At this pace, a vaccine for COVID-19 will be found before he even starts working on “A Dream Of Spring”…hell before that book comes out we might have another one or two pandemics in the meantime. By then Martin will be just a pickled head in a jar like in “Futurama”…
Tron79,
If one has a wild imagination and masters a language well, then one should write. I believe it’s getting very depressing you don’t find a way to channel all this creativity.
I had the imagination as a kid, but then I decided to do a ph.d. Two years of m.a. and four years of ph.d. beat all poetry out of me tbh. One has to write “scientifically” to be accepted and approved by the community. I had to supress my tendencies until I got my degree. But afterwards I decided that I wouldn’t write as dry and unimaginative as they wanted and I started deviating from that. I believe I’m in a good place now even though I’ll never write as I used to when I was young.
Efi,
Oh, I think you’ve said this before.
Theater plays need plot and emotional impact.
I’m sure you’re very good at it (I see the way your posts are written).
I’ll read all the comments tomorrow.
Totally OT: I became a grandmother at 7:43 a.m. PT April 17. Life inexorably finds a way, pandemics and madmen be damned.
I miss GoT, and all the GoT-related conversation on this site, more terribly than I care to admit. It got me through some of the darkest days of my life, before I could have imagined the even darker days ahead.
I’m looking forward to “House of the Dragon” far more than any self-respecting 50-year-old ought to.
I love you all and hope you’re staying safe.
Efi,
Well my writing was for the shorthand magazine of a shorthand society so it wasn’t like it was for a national magazine
When the society did still actual live dictation lessons in a physical location I wrote pieces for dictation and there are a handful of us that each write an article roughly every 3 months for an informal magazine that we pass round each other. It’s handwritten in Pitman New Era.
Efi,
”Two years of m.a. and four years of ph.d. beat all poetry out of me tbh.”
No they didn’t.
#BatPost
Wolfish,
That’s lovely news, Wolfish. Hope Mum and Baby – and fond Grandmama and other assorted relations – are doing well.
Efi,
Efi, I have a layperson’s interest in history but not any deeper than that. My O level Latin isn’t up to reading texts in said language so I have intermittently looked at online versions of English translations from sundry stories from different languages but they tend to be terribly dry. I borrowed an English copy of The Mabinogian from the library once but it wasn’t engaging because of how it was written and despite my late mother being Welsh I never learned the language. Don’t put yourself down for confining yourself to the conventions of your genre because some translators have somehow lost the poetry and epic sweep of the original texts. Any translators visiting the site let me add a disclaimer that I’m not bashing translators in general. Some of the translations I refer to were ones I read on archive.org so would have been old-fashioned.
I forgot to say I echo the sentiments of those who rightly give praise to the costume staff making protective wear.
Happy birthday 😀
Efi,
That’s very interesting. And I didn’t know that. What part of history do you like the most to write about?
Ten Bears,
Somehow I knew you’d say that, lol.
In reality the bat post was accidental; I didn’t put eny effort in it. I’m glad you liked it.
Which reminds me that there’s a moment in GoT when I laugh my guts out even though I shouldn’t. It involves bat wings.
It’s the loot train attack.
The moment Drogon approaches, flying low, growing from a tiny little spot looking like an annoying fly on the horizon into a fully grown malicious dragon, he somehow reminds me of a… chicken.
Yes, a gigantic chicken stretching out its long neck for food.
So I’m beating myself up laughing while Drogon sows fire on the poor Lannister soldiers, bat wings, spikes and all in full display.
I swear I don’t know why this is happening. Perhaps it’s because my grannies both had hen-coops in their courtyards, so I know how chicken beat each other up trying to get to the food, necks stretched out in front of them and cut wings behind them.
Young Dragon,
As I said I have nothing against those comments. But many times only those comments are said in every single article. Why start every comment with that same sentence which feels like a broken record, than just talk first about the article in this case, they could state something about the costumers for instance.
And if an article has nothing worthwhile to react to, at least myself just ignore the article and won’t post a single comment but that’s just me.
Wolfish,
How is it there wolfish?
Efi,
Well english is not my first language. I don’t think I would know to write anything in english. lol Anything worth reading.
kevin1989,
I write comedies mostly, but I think it’s time for me to write a real drama. 😀 Comedies are just easier to sell sadly.
Wolfish,
I think I really realized how much I will miss GoT during A Knight of the Seven Kigdoms, during that great song. “Never wanted to leave, never wanted to leave…” It’s like a song about all of us.
For me being a GoT fan means beaing on this site mostly. 😀 Analyzing photos, trailers, news and leaks from set. It was so much fun.
I hope HOTD will be able to bring at least 50% of joy GoT brought me.
mau,
Well then, I’ll take that as an excuse to post another Maisie Williams picture.
https://celebmafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/maisie-williams-metal-magazine-42-photos-3.jpg

kevin1989,
We live in the redwoods in Northern California, a pretty rural area; we’re in the county seat, population 27,000. One known death so far, and it was early on. Most people seem to be complying with the governor’s orders, although there’s definitely grumbling from some of the Trumpites (it’s quite split here politically, for reasons I won’t bore you with in this post). Mostly it’s just… weird. I’m teleworking three days a week and Saner Half is completely homebound, so we’ve committed ourselves to long lunchtime walks. Almost no one in the streets, which is odd to me given how sparsely populated it is here and how easy to maintain social distancing.
We’ve been personally very lucky to not know anyone (to date) infected with COVID-19, so I can still afford to joke that this isn’t the apocalypse I was expecting. I still don’t have a proper leather outfit, and have no idea where to obtain a tank.
Hope all is well with you in your corner of the world.
mau,
Ditto. I think that’s when it really started to hit me as well.
There are days when I feel positively juvenile and silly for missing it so much, but then I remind myself that it’s about so many things—an incredibly rich internal world brought to life by an incredibly talented group of artists, a community of fans that’s been as enriching to me as any “real-world” community, our collective drive to understand all the different facets of ourselves through brilliant fiction that is both a lens and a mirror.
But I’m getting maudlin now.
mau,
Comedy always works 😀 But if you want to do more drama, just do it and look how it turns out.
Wolfish,
That’s good news, hopefully the measurements will help to keep it that way.
As for here, the measurements seem to have worked, overall the amount of deaths has lowered significant. Same with new cases in hospitals. It’s slowly declining here.
Wolfish,
Congrats on the new member of your clan! A bright thing in these grey times.
kevin1989,
I hope you are keeping good spirits! Lack of your full social circle can be difficult but in most countries, we are beginning to see a glimmer of an end. Several countries in Asia are at their “new” normal and other countries, if disciplined, will be there in another few weeks.
Last few days, I have been sorting and editing my library. It has been delightful!
*”BOK BOK BOKKKK, MOTHERF*CKERS!!!” 🐔🐔🐔
Now I’m laughing. I always noticed the bird-like physicality and character of the dragons, because I rehabilitate wild birds, and of course they are the closest living relatives of the dinosaurs…so I figure dragons for right in there. Your description of Drogochicken is so clear in my mind now, and it’s fantastic. And really…it was all for the grain stores, right?! ❤
Yes, that’s the tiresome bit – the copy/paste nature of spamming the same comment no matter the actual topic. It wouldn’t even matter what the repetitive comment was about, it’d be irritating. But then, I imagine that’s the point. 😉
It’s no different then the Hodor “spam” every first comment that there used to be. Nobody complained about that even though it was never “on topic”.
Jack Bauer 24,
Hodor.
Jack Bauer 24,
HODOR is a man of honor!
Mr Derp,
Intent is the operative word here. In order for someone to be classified as a troll, the intention of their comment has to be to upset other posters. There’s no evidence or indication that is the case. They’re simply praising D&D for their work. If going off topic alone was a trolling offense, we’d all be guilty.
Tormund is all better!
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/kristofer-hivju-says-hes-fully-recovered-coronavirus-1290456
#GiantsMilk
Though it’s four days late….
Happy 23rd Birthday to Maisie Williams!
🗡👸🏻🎂
—
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/qkeTcNDssz0-5FsTLf56aVyCwpoQ_shK5WUiArLUbflIknemetwbQzq-gBsiW-QbV1E67j2J2yL30H4Bgnyk2Wv1v9QynAXHsJ-9PLCPrO35rual48410zJBCKm8lJpuNRgTgjSuOs3t_yhZYr9zN-unU4eF
Ten Bears,
Giant’s milk antidote, confirmed.
Mango,
I’m still getting by, I’m missing my colleagues, but still we’re talking so now and then. Same with family and friends. And I try to do at least a walk once in a couple of days. Half an hour of sun can do a person good mentally. And there?
Big difference there: One is a name of just a character, which was more like: I’m the first commenter. And everyone did it, it was a group thing, it was something that everyone did and something of a “WotW” bounding. There was no opinion about the show about it.
But with the D&D are brilliant, it’s the opposite, it isn’t done as a “group-thingy” that bound WotW commenters. It’s also opinionated while hodor wasn’t. It’s a comment that keep on showing the diversity of season 8, even after a year. So that’s for me the big difference. One is a group-thingy that brought the group together to comment as fast as they could, the other is an opinionated comment that keeps on citing the difference we have in our group.
As I say, I don’t care that it’s done, if that makes them happy. But it’s not something for me that feels like it unifies the group we have here.
Ten Bears,
Good news 😀
kevin1989,
Yes, enjoying the sun is definitely recommended. A few times, I don my mask and take a quick walk myself when the sun is out and it is mild/warm.
I agree with you on the difference btw writing the name of a character (Hodor) and a repeated statement of a personal opinion. I was surprised by the assertion that they were comparable. Writing “Hodor” was a bit like yelling “First”, a single word with no controversy attached. Multiple people can do the same comment and so it becomes a community thing. For me, it also worked in the comment section because it is “hold the door” which resonates as a joke when yelled by the first person through the door, so to speak.
Can this be right? Con of Thrones is still going forward as planned in Orlando, Florida in July?
Seven Hells!
_________________
Con of Thrones Friday July 17, 2020 – Sunday July 19, 2020 Orlando Florida
“Con of Thrones is currently continuing as scheduled.”
https://www.conofthrones.net/
—
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b3125764611a03a55b1fdb3/t/5e67a37b7891847c6cf04ca0/1583850363838/COVID-19+Statement.pdf

Ten Bears,
——
https://66.media.tumblr.com/af45e0c92bef099292dfd7dbcd258167/tumblr_nm8uu0Oe3m1uqyfpso4_250.gifv
Everyone will come as Wight, I suppose.
Bizarre and dangerous. They’ll have to cancel eventually, this is definitely a case of dollar signs in the way. SDCC just officially canceled and it was supposed to be in July as well.
To be honest: I don’t miss much. We’re living in our own house with garden in a small village, and as freelancer (fine arts and graphic design) we are working at home since years. Every day I go out to walk my dog, all around are fields and woods and restfull tracks. If I meet somebody (seldom enough and mostly known), we easily can hold distance, say hello and how are you. Luckily my lover and I are used to be with ourselfs, so there is no big difference to our “normal life”.
Something I’m reallyreally missing: my dogtraining in dog school (agilty/jumping and distance training)! And my dog is missing it, too, especially his buddies.
Yes, we are lucky, I know.
People in cities, in small apartments, bored poor children around 24/7, perhaps home office, or – fatal! – jobless because of COVID 19, worst, if they have not enough money, no unemployment- and health insurance – !!!
I am walking in a kind of slumbery reality.
kevin1989,
I agree Kevin about Hodor. There were many a times when I thought I was first with Hodor and someone beat me out!!! Frustrating. I might start posting “Orson”. Maybe it could become a fan favorite. I think after the Hold the Door episode Hodor posts started varying. I may have to say Orson and see if anyone continues. I don’t want to hinder anyone’s opinion though. I don’t really get the D&D brilliant thing but I do want to thank Jack for so many brilliant links and resources and insights over the years.
Tron79,
Hodor?
https://www.mediocremovie.club/uploads/4/3/0/4/43044447/published/hodor.gif?1554857164
Tron79,
”I think after the Hold the Door episode Hodor posts started varying.”
Definitely. After S6e5, “Hodor!” wasn’t so funny anymore. 😢
Ahem… *deep breath*
Hodor.
cos alpha,
Sounds as if it is not going badly for you!
You are right that it may be a lot easier for folks that have good-sized living space including some outdoor access. It must be quite intense for families living in more compact quarters.
Although in the US many of the persons pressing to end the great hibernation are not in very dense cities like NYC and Chicago….
Hopefully Martin will stay safe and finish the book! I have high hopes when it comes to this unfortunate pandemic situation that he could finally finish it. Also, I’m really excited about the House of the Dragon! Fingers crossed that it’s gonna be as good as GoT.
How about you guys, are you excited about the show?? 🙂
Mango,
Exactly, this.
Yes I also did a walk today, not wearing a mask, but I didn’t meet anyone, I knew where to walk to. And if I see somebody 10/20 meters away I just walk to the side more with 2m distance.
Ten Bears,
Probably they are waiting till the last moment to cancel it. Same with here. Everything till June first was cancelled with events. But after it not yet, but still can happen if they keep that measurement longer.
XDXDXD
cos alpha,
Dog training sounds great, when I had a dog I really loved that.
Luckily I can still entertain myself with movies/reading etc. Not everyone can do that.
Tron79,
I also liked all his links 😀
Sad or happy hodor?
Florida is playing fast and loose with the quarantine situation. They’re basically ignoring it. They re-opened the beaches recently even though there’s been a spike in deaths there.
It’s incredibly dumb. There was also an armed militia in Michigan protesting the stay-at-home laws. It’s unreal how selfish some people are.
It is scary to think we stayed at home successfully, and then we may end up going back out there and catching it anyway because people aren’t distancing and following common sense. However, if people can’t support their families and feed themselves, I can see that you can’t stay closed forever. I’m lucky to have done well, and I currently still have a job with money being deposited. Many many many aren’t as lucky as me.
For me, I seem to be staying up later and later. I don’t think I use up any energy during the day. I started watching “The Last Kingdom” with the main character’s furrier Jon Snow furs. I have trouble reading very long. I get restless and have a bad habit of touching my face while I’m reading. I’m not sure why, but it’s one of those things you aren’t supposed to do! But I haven’t seen anyone, so not sure what I have to worry about. I avoid answering the door. Well even before this I hardly ever answered the door, since it was mostly salespeople. I did order a cheap elliptical to start getting some exercise. It’s hard for me to walk around the neighborhood since too many people get close to each other and I’m constantly turning the other way or walking in and out of the street. It’s just not very pleasant, so I would rather stay inside most of the time. My wife seems to be doing better and has been doing the “click list” feature from our local grocery which is working out without having to see anyone, but she goes through a washing ritual of all of the packages. My daughter is fine since she lives this type of isolated life anyway. It’s really interesting. She has had anxiety issues, but if anything I think she’s doing better since we are all here together supporting her. She doesn’t seem anxious to me at the moment. We’re all just living the way she’s been living for quite some time. I’m letting some of it out here, because I guess it feels very surreal. But I can see it’s a totally different experience for me when I’m only dealing with the isolation and the feeling of one day flowing into the other. I’m not dealing with food insecurity or money insecurity at the moment. There were times at the beginning that I was worried about food and the basics as people ran to the groceries to hoard what they could. Luckily, our local groceries started putting limits on how many things you could buy at once. Adriannacandle, I’m half way through with the last book of HDM now. It talks so much about religion I’m really identifying with it. Especially since I work at a synagogue and live in that world of faith, Pullman’s perspective is really very clever and poignant. I’m hoping I can relax for awhile and just enjoy reading it for more than 20 minutes. I honestly get restless as I said and have to put it down or get mad at myself for touching my face…but so silly since I can’t really infect myself since I don’t really see anyone during the day!! But I fear this will change soon as we will be getting back out in Ohio in May. I’m hoping at shul we will require people to wear masks and maintain distancing. That will help some. The problem is that many have it and don’t know it, so the masks mainly protect the healthy from being infected by those who don’t know they have it.
Tron79,
I can definitely understand people wanting to re-open their businesses to make money and pay their bills. I can totally get behind that.
However, re-opening beaches is something completely different. And the armed protesters weren’t trying to re-open their businesses. They were just complaining about “freedom”. Some people never grow out of the 5-year old “I do what I want” mentality. Life is about more than only doing what you want all the time.
The more quarantining people do now, the quicker life can go on as normal. However, the more we open things up prematurely, the more likely it’ll be that this virus will take even longer to go away.
Stay safe!
Yeah the beaches don’t seem like the first thing you would want to open! Yeah I get protests from folks who have to feed their families but I don’t get it if you just say you have the freedom to go out and infect people.
Jack Bauer 24,
Yes, it is canon now. GRR abdicated his place in the lore.
Oh, it gets better!
Here’s our rocket scientist Governor Ron DeSantis trying – and failing – to put on mask.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rexchapman/status/1251300355582935046
——————
“The long night is coming. And the dead come with it.”
– Lord Commander Jon Snow aka King Crow.
Tell me about it. Here I am sequestered in my high-rise sky cell… indefinitely.
Mord! Mord! Lemme out!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SKvCX2p3q0
————-
Tron79,
In my 4/19/20, 3:07 pm comment, I linked to the Con of Thrones website and questioned:
Can this be right? Con of Thrones is still going forward as planned in Orlando, Florida in July?
Seven Hells!
_
Con of Thrones Friday July 17, 2020 – Sunday July 19, 2020 Orlando Florida
“Con of Thrones is currently continuing as scheduled.”
————-
For those of us who had been planning to travel to Orlando for Con of Thrones in July, here are some statistics for your consideration:
• Since 3/18/20 I’ve been keeping track of the number of reported, confirmed Florida cases. [The actual number is surely much greater; without testing, who knows?]
On 3/18/20 there were 314 reported cases in Florida. Through yesterday, 4/19/20, there were 26,314 reported cases in Florida.
• Since 4/2/20, I’ve also been tracking the number of cases by county. Orange County (the Orlando area) had 502 confirmed cases on April 2, 2020. As of last night, 4/19/20 at 7:00 pm, there were 1,198 confirmed cases in Orange County.
• Semi-related question: Will the scheduled guests be willing or able to fly to Florida in July? I can envision Qyburn (Anton Lesser) attending out of morbid scientific curiosity. Syrio (Miltos Y.) might show up just to tell the god of death “Not today.” Not so sure about the other guests slated to come.
• Even if impatient local authorities “re-open” parts of the state and allow a throng of people to gather in a convention center, cautious folks may be reluctant to rely on the Lord of Light to purify the premises of viral particles, and protect them from asymptomatic but contagious super-spreaders – even if everyone wears masks and manage to stay 6 feet away from each other.
Seven Hells!
Dame of Mercia,
”Would it be worth starting a forum thread for the discussion on relative merits of books and show if we could try to keep it polite and not troll each other…”
The last time the subject of using the Forum Section came up, lots of commenters explained that they were unable to register. I’m not sure if that problem has been remedied.
There are lots of topics that would be best discussed in the Forum Section: Many times interesting subthreads get swallowed up or abandoned in the regular Comments Sections.
Has anybody tried registering recently???
Mr Derp,
”The more quarantining people do now, the quicker life can go on as normal. However, the more we open things up prematurely, the more likely it’ll be that this virus will take even longer to go away.”
I hate to sound like Mr. Buzzkill….
Daily Arya photo (gif)
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/803240690794104627/9D1F1788DA4D81D4B233CB39D3E9704DD10893BB/
S7e4 dagger twirl
👸🏻🔪
I’m really shocked that he failed like that. Especially when in the USA it’s already a month that it’s there big time (a month right?) and I would expect he would already have practice it again.
I also saw a story of a US governor who was all about: stop the lockdown, it’s not that bad, start the economy. But at the same time he wears a mask all the time, if it’s not that bad why would he wear it all the time, probably because he wants to protect himself maybe.
Ten Bears,
I would expect that at least the people working for GoT, the actors etc won’t come then? I don’t know who were suppose to be there this year?
There I was, minding my own business, doing household chores, with a GoT soundtrack playing in the background… And then a version of “Jenny’s Song” came on.
I started tearing up, sobbing, crying.
“… she never wanted to leave…”
That’s how I feel about GoT.
I never wanted to leave but the show is over. A phase in my life is over. All the friends and acquantaces I made along the way will fade away. “… never wanted to leave…”
Well, at least I’ve got all the books to look forward to! /sarc
I did it. I’m waiting for my registration to be approved. I’m lurking around here since the beginning of WotW, but I barely looked at the Forum page all these years. It would be nice if the community could join there to talk about GoT, ASOIAF or other topics outside this universe.
kevin1989,
”I don’t know who were supposed to be there this year?
I guess you can say that this year’s Con of Thrones would feature an All-Pandemic lineup:
• Jorah Mormont (Iain Glen): Highly contagious greyscale
• Qyburn (Anton Lesser): Human experiments on fatally infected subjects
• Young Hodor (Sam Coleman): Man-made brain-eating disease victim
• Syrio Forel (Miltos Yerolemou): “Not today!” to the God of Death
The question is, even if by July Orlando, Florida is (prematurely) “re-opened” by myopic state and local politicians, will the GoT actors want to risk flying in via a transatlantic flight from overseas to appear in a crowded convention hall in Florida?
I am not sure if the airlines are or will be scheduling flights between Europe to the United States. And notwithstanding a small segment of deluded yokels who think the pandemic is a hoax, I believe GoT fans tend to be intelligent, science-abiding unselfish people who will be reluctant to abandon physical distancing or unwittingly trigger an outbreak by converging in Orlando.
Unless… They’re willing to adopt Littlefinger’s rejection of Robyn Arryn’s preference for sheltering at home [S4e8]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxTrEb9U6o0
———-
If memory serves correctly, some commenters had difficulty getting their registrations approved. I’m not sure why.
I checked in to the Forum section earlier today. There don’t seem to be many active commenters or recent postings.
Ten Bears,
I would expect the cast would decline, they are very much pro-measurements. (Like Sohpie)
Actors will cancel. Mischief Management are the problem. They refuse to cancel and are playing a dangerous game and setting a bad precedent. When San Diego Comic Con canceled, that’s about the time every other con should have thrown in the towel. Not only will the actors cancel, the turnout from the ticket holders will surely be small in numbers. This is Mischief Management trying to recoup every dime it can. They are handling this in the most unsafe way possible.
Tron79,

“Flock of sheep visit empty McDonald’s during lockdown.”
in Ebbw Vale
(per ITV Wales News)
—-
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWHoI48XkAAA9bc?format=jpg&name=small
—-
Baa Ram Ewe! Baa Ram Ewe!
To your breed, your fleece, your clan be true.
Sheep be true!
Baa Ram Ewe!
Jack Bauer 24,
What I don’t get is…
Why not just announce it’s postponed?
Besides, in years past Con of Thrones would add big names to the guest roster in the month or two leading up to the event. There’s no way that will happen if they stick with the July, 2020 date.
I can count on one hand the number of actresses and actors for whom I’d even consider attending in July. And none of those handful of names are on the current roster.
They don’t want to issue refunds. It always comes down to 💰💰💰
I can’t see any other members of the cast committing to appearing, so highly unlikely they add anyone else. Who was the last guest they even announced? They haven’t put out an official statement about the status of the Con in over 6 weeks and the current climate hasn’t changed much since then. I don’t see how they can go on as planned.
Looks like the last guest announcement was 3 months ago (Miltos Yerolemou). They should have at the very least suspended ticket sales for the time being. Not only haven’t they canceled, but they’re still selling tickets 🤦♂️
Jack, I believe you nailed it. It’s all about the $$$ – and not issuing refunds.
The Con of Thrones website is still directing customers to Mischief Management’s March 10, 2020 Statement. That Statement (below) downplays the health risks.
It also contains this oblique blurb:
“Mischief Management events are currently operating by our standard ticket terms and conditions which can be found on the FAQ pages for each event.”
I looked at the FAQ section pertaining to refunds. Here’s what it says, in pertinent part:
“All sales are final for Con of Thrones and tickets are not refundable. This policy is outlined in the Terms and Conditions of the ticket.”
I guess they’re willing to go forward with Pan the Crow as the only guest and maybe a few brave fans in attendance — and they can keep everyone else’s money. I hate to be so cynical.
———————————
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5b3125764611a03a55b1fdb3/t/5e67a37b7891847c6cf04ca0/1583850363838/COVID-19+Statement.pdf
MISCHIEF
MANAGEMENT
Mischief Management Statement on COVID-19
NEW YORK (March 10, 2020) –
Mischief Management does not currently anticipate any changes or delays to our 2020 event lineup. We are coordinating closely with our venue partners to ensure that all necessary precautions are taken. As scheduled events approach, more information about each venue’s precautions will be made available via the event website.
We are actively monitoring the COVID-19 virus outbreak and assessing our event schedule and policies in line with local, state, and federal officials and public health advice, including that of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the World Health Organization (WHO). Our policies reflect the travel restrictions and guidelines of the United States government and take into consideration international travel restrictions and guidelines.
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I think you’ve got a basis to be cynical. I was disappointed in Con of Thrones when you posted this material from their website :/
On a lighter (albeit, off-topic) note: because you have such a great reference point for music, I was wondering if you ever saw any Literal (‘literal’ being used correctly) Music Videos when they were trending circa (I think) 2009/10?
The description of a Literal Music Video from Wikipedia:
For example, this one is done of Total Eclipse of the Heart — in which a (quite skilled) singer sings to the tune of the original song over the original music video, changing the lyrics to describe exactly what is happening in a shot 😉
Lyric snippet:
I’ve had this in my head for days and I think it’s awesomely done — I think I know this version better than the real version. Here’s the video! XD
Adrianacandle,
#200
Adrianacandle,
No, I’ve never heard of “literal music videos.” Now that you’ve mentioned them I’ll check them out though!
On a related note…I’ve been waiting to post a seven-part, thirty-six year musical rabbit hole into which Efi inadvertently sent me in a previous thread when she posted a link to a Cocoon/Lola Marsh music video for their song “I Got You” (2019).
I didn’t even realize we hit that mile marker! Congratulations, #200!!
(I’m still working on the laser work portfolio. I realize I tempted Murphy’s Law when I thought this would be easy…. The template I bought is testing me and my patience, as most templates utilizing WPBakery do, but I’m making progress!)
Ten Bears,
The ‘literal version’ of Total Eclipse of the Heart is, by far (IMO), the best one! Lyrics are great, singing is great, and it definitely showcases the bizarre visuals of 80s music videos! XD
I love rabbit holes, especially YouTube rabbit holes — except when they lead me to the Wrong Side of YouTube.
Adrianacandle,
Oh my god, I remember these so well….my friend and I would watch them and laugh until we cried….I recall being particularly set off by the “blind possessed choir boys”. 😂 That and the parody GI Joe PSAs kept my tiny grasp of sanity attached.
Yes, me too!! I think the line that always gets me is, “What the effing crap? That angel guy just felt me up,” since it’s such a perfect word-for-word description of that shot with Bonnie Tyler being encased by some angel dude’s wings while being danced around by the “Glee Club of the Damned.”
(Btw, did you see Safiya’s frankenbathbomb video? I definitely relate to the bathbomb forming issues XD)
If Con of Thrones goes on as scheduled people will literally die lol.
Ten Bears,
Already 200 pages in a couple of days.
Adrianacandle,
Side note about the “musical rabbit hole” I referred to in my 4-21-20, 8:45 pm comment: I was initially apprehensive that the song Efi recommended, “I Got You” (2019), was a remake of an 80’s song. It’s not. Only the title is the same.
One of my lifelong pet peeves is hearing a terrible remake of a classic song – and then the garbage remake and copycat band gets extensive airplay and all the glory because audiences are unfamiliar with the brill**nt original.
An egregious example is the song “Hooked on a Feeling.” The wonderful 1968 original featured the mellifluous voice of B.J. Thomas and the unique intro of an electric sitar.
But most people are familiar only with the godawful, crappy 1973 version by Blue Swede because of its inclusion in the movie “Guardians of the Galaxy.” This bastardized, horrendous remake starts with a stupid “ooga chaka” chant, and f*cked with the lyrics too for some silly reason (apparently, to sanitize the original’s comparison of deep abiding love to addiction.) The remake took a wonderful love song and turned it into a loud, dumbed-down pile of shite.
Sorry for the off-off topic mini-rant – and for the follow up comments with links to the two versions for anyone who cares to compare them.
Continued from 10:07 am…
“Hooked on a Feeling” (1968)
original version by B.J. Thomas
(There are lots of links to the song with varying audio quality. I think this one might have the best sound quality of the instrumentals.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIIatdfg99k
…. And here’s the godawful crappy remake by Blue Swede of “Hooked On a Feeling” (1973), popularized by its use in “Guardians of the Galaxy.” (Q: What moron thought inserting the inane, repetitive “ooga chaka” chant and loud blaring horns was a good idea?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrI-UBIB8Jk
________________
Here’s an excerpt from the lyrics in
B.J. Thomas’s original version:
“Lips as sweet as candy
The taste stays on my mind
Girl, you keep me thirsty for
Another cup of wine.
I’ve got it bad for you, girl
But I don’t need a cure
I’ll just stay addicted
and hope I can endure”
———-
… And here are the idiotic, nonsensical changes to the lyrics in the garbage Blue Swede version (as if infection were a better metaphor than addiction):
“Lips as sweet as candy,
its taste is on my mind
Girl, you got me thirsty for
another cup of wine.
Got a bug from you, girl,
but I don’t need no cure
I’ll just stay a victim
if I can for sure.”
🤬
Pigeon,
” BOK BOK BOKKKK, MOTHERF*CKERS!!!” 🐔🐔🐔
Now I’m laughing. I always noticed the bird-like physicality and character of the dragons, because I rehabilitate wild birds, and of course they are the closest living relatives of the dinosaurs…so I figure dragons for right in there. Your description of Drogochicken is so clear in my mind now, and it’s fantastic. And really…it was all for the grain stores, right?! ❤
I’ve had pet birds most of my life. When Drogon swooped in during the “loot train” attack I thought he/she* was carrying a full clutch of eggs. His/her belly looked distended.
* Dragons are genderless, right?
Glad to see hes writing. Though I can’t say for sure whether or not I’m going to read it. There was a time i’d chop off my own arm to get TWOW, but… I’d have to reread the entire series again to remember all the Green Graces and Septa Lemores.
Ten Bears,
I can’t think where it was exactly but didn’t one of the VFX clips from an earlier season of GOT state that the dragons were based on birds. You know, I really can’t remember whether the book dragons were wyverns – 2 legged – or 4 legged like the Welsh dragon.
HelloThere,
Well, the version of ADWD I read had a name glossary at the back (I used it!!!!). One of the two people I know in real life who’ve read ASOIAF made her own glossary which started off as one page but rapidly grew..
Ten Bears,
“I was initially apprehensive that the song Efi recommended, “I Got You” (2019), was a remake of an 80’s song.”
Did you mean this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aP4GaAruws
Goodness, it’s one of my favorites of all times, TB. I have the CD in my car.
I adore UB 40.
Efi,
I love, love, love Chrissie Hynde… but no, that’s not who or what I was thinking of.
(P.S. The Pretenders’ “Night in My Veins” is one of the tracks on my hypothetical Night King compilation album, “Ol’ Blue Eyes is Back: Love Songs for the Long Night.”)
Efi,
The Pretenders, “Night in My Veins” (1994)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTOcUXDt4z0
——-
Ten Bears,
Cute guy, the one with the missing tooth!
From the time when music was still real and not electronic and not all songs sounded alike.
So which “I got you” did you recall?
Efi,
please stand by. Internet connection is spotty
Efi,
36-Year Musical Rabbit Hole prompted by Efi posting video of “I Got You” (2019) by Cocoon w/ Lola Marsh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_GnJTl2HqI
At first, I assumed “I Got You” was a remake of the 1980 song of the same name by Split Enz, fronted by Neil Finn…
/1 of 7
————-
Efi,
1980
Split Enz,
“I Got You” (1980)
Split Enz (w/ Neil Finn)
3 min 54 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmQlBfxh4Us
/2 of 7
Efi,
Six years later…
1986: Neil Finn with Crowded House
“Don’t Dream It’s Over” (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9gKyRmic20
/3 of 7
Efi,
Ten years later…
1996
Crowded House (Farewell Tour, Nov. 24, 1996)
“Don’t Dream It’s Over” – Live
6 min 52 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I52eefwAKDE
/4 of 7
Efi,
June, 2006, twenty-six years after the 1980 release of “I Got You,” Split Enz reunited to perform “I Got You” live
Split Enz – 2006 Reunion
“I Got You” – Live (3:58 long)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZR_q7Bd3aw
/5 of 7
Efi,
In July, 2015, twenty-nine years after the release of “Don’t Dream It’s Over,” Neil Finn performed it solo with a string section.
(My favorite rendition…)
(Auckland, NZ July 18, 2015)
4 min 44 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I90oxWF2lms
/6 of 7
Efi,
November, 2016, thirty years after Crowded House released “Don’t Dream It’s Over” in 1986 and twenty years after their “farewell tour,” Crowded House reunited to perform it live at the Sydney Opera House.
Nov. 27, 2016 Sydney Opera House
6 min 52 sec
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zguFTB8RuGM
That’s thirty-six years: 1980 – 2016. Neil Finn still sounds pretty good, if not better.
/7 of 7
Ten Bears,
I didn’t know Split Enz. I liked the live version much better than the first one.
But Crowded House and Don’t dream it’s over is one of my beloved ones from my childhood! And you’re right, the solo version is the best.
“In many cases when a reader puts a story aside because it ‘got boring,’ the boredom arose because the writer grew enchanted with his powers of description and lost sight of his priority, which is to keep the ball rolling.” — Stephen King
This is what Martin should be made to see everyday he wakes up and “makes progress”…after a decade…
Efi,
But Crowded House and Don’t dream it’s over is one of my beloved ones from my childhood! And you’re right, the solo version is the best.“
• I’m not sure if you saw my 4/22/20, 11:09 am “pet peeve” comment about crappy remakes of classic songs.
I admire Miley Cyrus. I think she’s a humanist and a wonderful, enlightened person. However, Miley Cyrus and Ariana Grande did to “Don’t Dream It’s Over” what book wankers have accused “D&D” of doing to Stannis: butchering it.
• On a lighter note, thanks to YouTube I’m able to find live performances of “beloved [songs] from my childhood.” There’s something [not sure of the right word…comforting?] about watching someone perform her or his songs decades later and sounding better than ever doing it.
Besides, now that we’re all going to be living in a Covid-19 dystopian hellscape for the foreseeable future, who knows if or when we’ll ever be able to go to concerts again? Finding recorded live shows on the internet is consolation.
It’s also refreshing to be reminded of a time when singers actually sang and musicians actually played instruments. Nowadays, too many performers have voices processed with “Auto Tune,” supported by canned, computerized background tracks and a gaggle of backup dancers.
… I got a whole bunch of links to “beloved songs” and live performances. Maybe I’ll post some more…
Ha! I guess your comment was prompted by the quote from the Big Kahuna’s “Not a Blog” excerpted in the posted article:
“I am still up in the mountains, doing the social distancing rag, and writing WINDS OF WINTER. I have good days and bad days, but I am making progress.”
Yeah right. Just like I’ve been writing a letter confessing my love to a girl from my past, for going on fifteen years. I have good days and bad days, but I’m making progress.
Ok. Now this is getting silly.
The Con of Thrones website still says “Con of Thrones 2020 currently continuing as scheduled” [July 17-20, 2020 in Orlando, Florida].
Now the web page also has a click-on banner that says:
SHOP THE SOCIALLY DISTANT COLLECTION AND GET FREE SHIPPING
OFFER VALID THROUGH 4/23 🏠USE CODE: STAYHOME
Seriously? They’re hawking a merchandise collection named after pandemic mitigation measures, the code for free shipping is “Stay Hone” …. and they’re proceeding as there’s no impediment to the Con going forward?
I guess Mischief Management really doesn’t want to issue refunds to fans who’ve bought tickets.
What a shame. I wanted to go. I’m glad I didn’t buy tickets yet.
If they were forward thinkers, they’d postpone the Con until it’s safe to congregate, and in the meantime, book some big name guests to induce ticket holders to refrain from asking for refunds.
Here’s my Dream Roster (in addition to the four cast members already announced) for a rescheduled Con of Thrones:
2. Maisie Williams (The Many-Faced Goddess aka The Hero of Winterfell aka No One aka Arya Stark of Winterfell aka Mercy aka ASNAWP)
3. Rory McCann (Sandor Clegane aka The Hound aka The One They Call Dog)
4. Diana Rigg (Olenna Tyrell, Q of T)
5. Charles Dance (Tywin)
loco73,
Probably not much use. GRRM “kinda forgot” how to write his own series around twenty years ago.
Something JUST occurred to me.
Ser Bronn and Ser Davos. Two starring characters with very similar backgrounds:
-Both lowborn criminals from Flea Bottom
-Both rose to knighthood by serving southern houses – Davos the Baratheons and Bronn the Lannisters.
-Both fought in the Battle of Blackwater, and in that battle, Bronn was directly responsible for the death of Davos’s son.
They were total opposites in a number of ways:
-Bronn just might have been the single best fighter in the whole show whereas Davos didn’t have any combat ability
-Bronn didn’t have a family whereas Davos did
-Bronn was literate yet didn’t care about grammar, Davos was initially illiterate yet cared a lot about grammar
And yet these two never spoke to each other at all until their very last scene on King Bran’s Small Council. Kinda like how Bronn spent all his screentime in the first half of the show with Tyrion, then all of it in the second half with Jaime, and yet never spoke with both of them simultaneously until their scene in 8×4.
Farimer123,
Nice catch! I had not thought of those parallels between Sers Bronn and Davos.
They were total opposites in a number of ways:
Bronn was an utter cynic, Davos was the story’s rational idealist.
Bronn on the land, Davos on the sea.
Since it’s been a while, I’m bored, and it’s Suturday morning (and sth more) here, I’ll rant about Daenerys.
I still can’t get over the fact that they showed a conqueror going ballistics over a guy.
Is this the modern perception of women or is it just a male fantasy about them? That they lose their minds over guys?
Because from where I’m standing, it’s totally different; women actually don’t want to compromise with guys since they don’t have to anymore, so they don’t give two sh*ts about them (which is wrong, too).
Anyway, Dany.
She starts off as the underdog of the story. Sold to someone for his military strength, but manages to love him and more importantly to make him love her, for making her dreams a reality. She kind of uses him, but she loves him too, and manages to turn a very negative situation to her benefit. She survives his death and the death of her child; she hatches her dragons; she drives her tiny khalasar through the desert; she survives the warlocks of Qarth. At Astapor she deceives the masters into buying the Unsullied and turns them against the masters. In Yunkai she attacks in the middle of the night after having intoxicated half their forces, offered to buy the other half, and under the pretext of peace negotiations. The people of Yunkai call her “mother” which she likes even though later she comes to realize that she can’t be both mother of people and mother of dragons.
The Meereenese greet her with crucifying 163 children on the way to their city. She takes the city from within while an attack is fully developed and pays them back with the same coin, crucifixion. She decides that she won’t allow Meereen to suffer the fate of Astapor while at the same time she recognizes that she has to learn how to rule in peace. She negotiates the fate of Meereen over and over with the nobility of the city. She even marries one of them.
But all the way through she learns that the road to conquest is a hard road to take. She is warned (by Barristan) that buying a slave army and bringing them to Westeros will not be appreciated by the Westerosi. But at the same time she is warned that honor doesn’t win wars (by Jorah), so she has to fight with an army of slaves while all along hating slavery and what it does to people. Compromising further all the principles she thought she had is her arc in Meereen and ADWD: she accepts torture, she accepts the reinstitution of slavery outside Meereen and she even takes a percentage from it, she accepts the opening of the fighting pits, she refuses to help the Astapori and they arrive at her gates defeated by her other enemy, Yunkai and hit by the plague, she marries one she loathes for the sake of peace.
It remains to see whether she will burn the khals like she did in the show. (she rather will even though I have another idea as to what the “fire for death” means).
The point is, no one will want her when she arrives at Westeros. Dorne will be at the side of fAegon; the Reach most probably too if Cersei burns the Tyrells. Storms End will rather be Edric’s, or still Stannis’. Daenerys will only have the Ironborn, a part of them. She will not give Jon such a hard time for coming north to save the North like it was in the show, because she will be in need of allies and the North can give her three allies at one stroke. She will burn Stannis (foreshadowed). She will go North, fight the dead, lose half her forces and a couple of dragons in the process and then march south with her new allies.
That is where Jon’s parentage comes in. Daenerys will be the one who will have brought foreign armies to Westeros. The slave Unsullied and the fearsome Dothraki. No one will want her apart from the North because they will want to use them in their war. Is it by chance that a Dothraki cut off Jamie’s hand? Is it by chance that Vargo Hoat is from Qohor? I don’t think so. These details are highly symbolic and foreshadowing in ASoIaF. Vargo Hoat wrecks chaos in Westeros, reminding the Westerosi what the Essosi are. In any case the Westerosi will have a ruler who is accepted, fAegon, who she will have to expose for the fake he is. So, he’ll roast too.
After all that, the show wanted to convince me that Daenerys will lose it for a guy.
No, she will lose it because after all she’s been through she won’t allow her prize to go to anyone else, be it fAegon or Jon.
What’s that quote?
Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad, but no less hungry.
[or sth like that]
Hungry. Not for love, for power; for the iron throne; for what she wanted which she made her guide in life.
She will burn the city for the throne, not for some ideal, not for some romantic love.
She will light a “fire to love”.
Efi,
According to D&D, there were other factors, it wasn’t down to simply being over a guy. Several things, per D&D, led up to that:
____________
Does she realize this? Can you copy the quote? I might be blanking on something 🙂
I agreed with your summary of Dany’s arc until this part (though, with Drogo, that was a horrific situation for a 13-year old girl to be in but I think it was more a matter of Dany figuring out how to gain agency in a situation she was forced into rather than her using Drogo. She’s trying to survive her new life). The Unsullied were no longer an army of slaves when they followed Dany. She gave the Unsullied a choice and they chose to follow her.
As to her principles and having to compromise her personal ideals in Meereen, Dany made these compromises (with great reluctance and inner turmoil) to keep the peace and minimize bloodshed — but the sacrifice of having to compromise her personal ideals troubled her tremendously and made her feel hopeless about the state of peace she managed to achieve.
Dany didn’t refuse to help the Astapori — she went to their refugee camp and helped treat them, thinking she was immune to the bloody flux, the disease they were inflected by. When the disaster in the fighting pits happened (ruining the peace with Yunkai when their leader was killed in the chaos, followed by Barriston disposing of Hizdahr), Yunkai marched on Meereen. To avoid the bloody flux infecting the Meereenes, Dany was forced to shut the doors on the Astapori and this caused her a great deal of personal agony.
I have ideas on how the story will go forward but I’m uncertain because there are so many theories. I agree Young Griff will be successful with rallying many kingdoms and will win the love of the people over Dany. Young Griff has the princely Targ looks, he was raised to be king, he doesn’t have a notorious reputation in-universe, I think he’s going to be pretty successful and on, paper, seems like the ideal ruler people will want to support.
I always thought that particular part of Dany’s House of the Undying vision (the part believed to be referencing Stannis) was more about Stannis not being Azor Ahai rather than death by Dany’s hand — and Dany will have an indirect role in uncovering this false belief. Not necessarily death by her hand but I think she has something to do with that prophecy. I think Jon’s parentage (and possible rebirth) does too. How/if this plays out will reveal the belief that Stannis is AA to be false.
_______
Considering the Others are after anybody living, I think the Dothraki, Unsullied, and Dany have a dog in this fight too 😉 But the North (or a section of the North) may be (initially) one of the few Westerosi who believe this is really a thing. I’m hoping the resolution to the Others storyline is more than a one-night battle that is constrained to the North while the south remains unawares, believing the Others to be another silly Northern story 🙂
I think there is still chaos and difficulty to come regarding the integration of various cultures the Westerosi view as enemies (the wildlings and the Dothraki especially — if the Dothraki opt to stay) but I don’t think this coming-together is doomed to end in these cultures becoming enemies again. I think negotiation will factor in — especially if the story’s end is meant to signify a better future for Westeros. Compromise — no side is exactly happy with the outcome but every side gets something out of it. I think that goes to GRRM’s questions about Aragorn’s tax policy. If the Dothraki and the wildlings are helping to fight a common enemy, they’re not exactly the orcs in this situation.
I’m praying it’s more complex than this and it involves some more nuance for Dany’s character, some “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” on Dany’s side too rather than Dany just going totally power-hungry and burn-y over a claim. I don’t think Dany going berserk over a throne and burning down KL as a result sounds… better :/
That’s an interesting quote (“Off in the distance, a wolf howled[…]”) but there’s no mention of power in its context. People have ascribed many different interpretations to it 🙂
This is where I find foreshadowing tricky. Depending on the reader, the same passage can symbolize different things — sometimes dependant upon what a reader wants for a story/character’s outcome, sometimes not. One can hunger for many things. And Dany is physically compromised in that quote because she’s been starving for goodness-knows-how-long, exposed to the elements, ill, and is in the midst of fever dreams.
Ten Bears,
Crap, I missed this post until I reviewed my own previous posts in this thread just now. I’m sorry about that -_- Thanks for explaining!
Yeah, this happens a lot, I think. It’s actually happened to me too — where I think the remake is the original and am unaware of the actual original song (to my parents’ dismay). Off the top of my head, I can’t think of examples right now but they’ll come to me. However, I have strong images of my dad with his head in his hands and sighing upon realizing I thought the remake was the original…
Something with Mariah Carey? Ugh, this is going to bug me.
(PS Progress being made on online documentation of laser work. Managed to take photos of finished pieces — still trying to figure out WordPress template. I left a…. firmly worded review… on the theme I purchased for too-much-money. They called it ‘unfair’ XD Oh jeeze! The “support” is terrible! They reference shortcodes — but totally fail to mention shortcodes or how they are generated in their own documentation and still can’t explain to me how to generate them, where they are referenced in the stupid WPBakery element, or anything! Yes, I think 1 star is fair for a $100 theme with the worst support!! AHGHGKDJSF /rant)
The interesting thing about the Brave Companions, the group Zollo and Vargo are a part of, is that they (per the westeros.org wiki) “are a sellsword company of considerably ill repute. The company comprises criminals and outcasts from many nations.”
This reminds me of this quote from Jon, who remembers Val telling him:
And this exchange between Marsh and Jon:
It’s not only Vargo wreaking havoc, it’s this entire group – a group of terrible people who come from everywhere and I think this group might be a bit of a reminder that, in ASOIAF, every culture has its good people, its bad people, and everyone in-between.
Efi,
I don’t see why Daenerys has to be proxy for every female ruler. She is a character GRRM created, I don’t see why she has to represent his opinion of every female ruler. She failed like any other person wiith God Complex should fail.
mau,
When I was at the university, I kind of disliked (or even hated) the idea that authors write their stories/poems according to models, which a good philologist needs to know in order to decipher a text.
I thought that when you have a story to tell, you simply have a story to tell. You need to get it out. That’s what being an author is. Your fantasy is running wild and you just won’t rest until you do.
Which is true, I guess, but not exactly true. Authors do convey meanings, and for that they use symbolism and models, some of which are very, very ancient (e.g. involuntary incest; it’s a trope as old as mankind). Beauty and the beast is medieval, but I’m sure somewhere in the world there’s an even more ancient myth with similar traits. And are you aware how many people have a myth about the cataclysm being the beginning of a new era for mankind? Far too many, I can’t even count (if you’re thinking of Christians/Jews you’re mistaken, ancient Greeks and Indians have it, too).
So there are these models from which authors draw their in-universei building material, and Martin is a master in this type of story-telling, there’s no denying that.
But did I imply that Daenerys symbolizes a particular type of female ruler for Martin?
No. She undoubtedly does, but I didn’t say which model is that.
I rather implied that Daenerys symbolizes a particular type of woman/ruler for D&D. One which I do not agree with, because after all that arc in the books, they made her look like a little woman, when she’s a great character, very complex, has been through a lot, is very shrewd, is cunning, compassionate and cruel, impulsive and patient, passionate and focused.
Instead, they said this (from Adriana’s post above):
“If Varys hadn’t betrayed her, if Cersei hadn’t executed Missandei, if Jon hadn’t told her the truth”.
And this:
“I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was… going to do what she did. And then she sees the Red Keep, which is, to her, the home that her family built when they first came over to this country 300 years ago. It’s in that moment, on the walls of King’s Landing, where she’s looking at that symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to– to make this personal.”
I don’t agree with Benioff -at all. Like, really? If Jon had told her the truth? In the books she’ll figure out the truth all by herself. That’s what her prophecies are all about. She’s a “slayer of lies”.
And Weiss -Red Keep is not a symbol of everything that was taken from her, because she’s been through that. The Red Keep is not a symbol of her suffering.
The iron throne is her goal. In the books she withstands everything for that. She doesn’t exist without it; she discarded her other options, she’s built everything around the goal that is the iron throne. So she’ll destroy it so that no one else takes what’s hers. What, after all that, she’ll allow fAegon or Jon or unknown X take it?
No way.
Efi,
That’s why I’d like Dany’s arc to be more nuanced than going berserk and massacring a ton of people over a throne. She has other stuff aside from the Iron Throne going on too, other things she’s thinking about and other things she wants. She yearns for a connection to family, a place to belong, she struggles with herself, she’s often of two minds. Even in her violent acts, when Dany feels like an avenging dragon in the heat of the moment (such as with the mass crucifixion), she is met with the cold hard reality of her actions the next day, upon which she feels sick. She’s consciously trying to be like her father, she’s always trying to control her darker impulses, she wants to be better. She laments being the last Targaryen. And that’s just scratching the surface.
Yet, it doesn’t appear that it was the writers’ intent to have Dany going bonkers and resorting to mass murder over a guy. I think that’s definitely a matter of opinion, which people are free to have, but it doesn’t sound like this was D&D’s intention.
In this quote, they reference other things — like Missandei’s beheading by Cersei, Varys’s betrayal, and Dany experienced other losses leading up to this. It wasn’t one thing and I don’t think D&D were trying to make it about one thing.
For me, I don’t think it’s much better to have Dany go berserk over power lust for a throne either. In my opinion, that doesn’t feel any more complex, that feels… well… more in the arena of straight-up villainy.
In a way, I think the Red Keep is a good symbol for much of Dany’s suffering. It represents the rise and fall of Dany’s family — it started there and it ended there when her family was overthrown. As a result, Dany was sent into exile, into a horrible life of suffering, which leads her to the events starting in AGOT. The overthrow of her family is why Dany lived such an awful life and that happened in the Red Keep — which was taken from her family when her father was overthrown.
As for the prophecies, we don’t know that Dany will figure out the truth all by herself. I’m not sure how she would. Not all of her prophecies are about one thing though — only three lines in her House of the Undying vision precede ‘slayer of lies’. Plus, these visions, these prophecies — they are all open to interpretation at this point. I don’t think much can be stated as fact right now.
Oh, I think Dany’s goal is a bit more complex than simply wanting the Iron Throne. It seems to me she wants a place to belong, a connection to her family, she wants to right the injustices of the world as she sees them. She thinks the Iron Throne is the place she belongs, will give her that connection to her family (a family she thinks she is the last of), and that she can wield power to right the wrongs of the world.
Dany still opted to stay in Meereen when she had the opportunity to sail to Westeros as she felt a responsibility to Meereen. I think Dany’s story is way more complex than simply hungering for the Iron Throne — as you pointed out, Dany is a lot of things. I think Dany’s difficult choices are only about to get harder as well, as well as the war within herself between her impulses, her desires, her ideals, and who she wants to be vs. who she feels she must be to achieve what she feels she must achieve.
“Every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness.” -Barristan
“The dragonspawn were famous for losing their minds.” -Robert
There’s a crude kind of symmetry. The incestuous Lannister siblings Jaime and Cersei – whose family didn’t have an especial reputation for inbreeding – had three children. Joffrey, the oldest, was a bad egg. But the two youngest, Myrcella and Tommen, were good and decent children, both. As Tyrion told Cersei, she and Jaime beat the odds.
The incestuous Targaryen siblings Aerys and Rhaella – whose family DID have an especial reputation for inbreeding – had three children. Rhaegar, the oldest, was (overall) a wonderful, generous person. But the youngest two, Viserys and Daenerys, turned out to be bad eggs. They did not beat the odds.
There’s an element of tragedy to it all. Even Aerys apparently started off alright, then later went mad. As Jaime said in some H&L: “the gods must have dropped his coin.” If Daenerys had been allowed to have a relatively normal happy childhood, she may have turned out okay. But her brother Viserys and most everything that happened in her life since the start of the series has been determined to make that coin land on the wrong side. Though tbh, I think she’s been rather heartless since even S1, that whole business with Mirriz and her village.
Adrianacandle,
Here’s your abstract, Adriana. I’ll be putting Dany’s thoughts in quotation marks. It’s from her last chapter of ADWD.
–If she had not been so sick and scared, that might have come as a relief. Instead she began to shiver violently. She rubbed her fingers through the dirt, and grabbed a handful of grass to wipe between her legs. “The dragon does not weep”. She was bleeding, but it was only woman’s blood. “The moon is still a crescent, though. How can that be?” She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? “I am the blood of the dragon”, she told the grass, aloud.
“Once”, the grass whispered back, “until you chained your dragons in the dark.”
“Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was… her name…” Dany could not recall the child’s name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. “I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons”.
“Aye”, the grass said, “but you turned against your children”.
Farimer123,
I don’t think it’s that simple. It’s not just the incest, although it might be implied that incest too might be the reason for Targaryen madness.
The problem with the Targaryens is that they believe that they are exceptional, above other humans, closer to gods. It’s their belief of their supremacy over others that makes them mad. The fact that they kept dragons as pets and preserved the right to inbreed set them apart from their society, meaning Westeros. Having at their disposal such power that no one else possessed led to tragic situations when they clashed against each other, a subject explored in F&B.
Daenerys has that power and choosing to use it is an entire path she chooses to take. The line “if they are monsters, so am I” shows that she is very self-aware of that fact. All through ADWD she struggles between being a “mother of children” and a “mother of dragons”. In the end she decides for the latter, and her decision is not madness, it’s perfectly rational.
So I don’t think it’s genetics that did the trick, I think it’s choices and that is reflected all through some of the best chapters of the book.
Even with the Lannisters, Jamie (I think, but I might be mistaken) thinks at some point that if the Targaryens did it, so could they. There’s a choice there too, a path to take. He was blindly in love with his sister and the Targaryen precedent provided him that justification he needed for his own incest.
Efi,
Thanks for including the quote you were thinking of 🙂
I don’t think this passage means it is impossible for Dany to be a mother of a human child because she has dragons. To me, it indicates what Dany believed due to MMD’s words — she believed herself to be barren so she resigned herself to having her dragons be her legacy. This doesn’t seem to indicate it must be one or the other.
It’s certainly an interpretation, this choice (mother of dragons or mother of children), and it may be correct, but I don’t see this choice as being something that is ever articulated in the series or something Dany is presented with. In this passage, Dany thinks she is barren — but here, she is bleeding. It’s been speculated by the readership whether or not this is Dany’s period or a miscarriage. I think this is the first time Dany has bled since MMD’s curse.
Throughout ADWD, Dany must make compromises to her own strongly-held ideals in the interest of peace but her choices aren’t presented that she can either be a mother to human children/her subjects or a mother to dragons.
When Dany thinks of herself in maternal terms and is presented with a choice (the infected Astapori coming to Meereen, seeking her help, calling her ‘mother’), she is faced with two terrible options: a) save the Meereenese people and turn the Astapori away to prevent the disease the Astapori refugees are infected with from spreading throughout the city or b) let the Astapori in, subjecting the Meereenese to the disease as well.
However, this isn’t really a choice between being nurturing and being violent, neither of Dany’s options in this case involve choosing violence by her hand. Instead, it’s a prospect in which Dany must turn away people-in-need, a people who declared her their mother, so that she may do her duty by another people she is now responsible for. As a third option, Dany opts to care for the Astapori while having them camp outside the city walls to keep the plague at bay. However, she is forced into her worst choice yet when the Second Sons, under Brown Ben, defect from her military to join Yunkai, compromising Dany’s own defenses. Dany must decide to close the city gates for the sake of Meereen’s people — a choice which anguishes Dany. Her failures in Astapor are why Dany choses to stay in Meereen.
All throughout ADWD Dany suppresses her darker instincts for the sake of peace and maintaining this peace also means compromising justice, her strongly held ideals, and working with her enemies — slavers who actively practice slavery. She is having to restrain her instinct to right every wrong for the sake of this peace and her people, something she struggles with as peace demands that she compromise some of her ideals, like allowing the Yunkai to resume slavery, if she wants to minimize bloodshed. All the while, she continues to feel guilt over using her power wrongly (trying to abolish slavery overnight via violent overthrows of power in Yunkai and Astapor, which resulted in both cities returning to slavery. With the slaving class left to rule in Yunkai under conditions Dany sets, Yunkai returns itself to slavery once Dany leaves. They brutally take Asatpor, kill the council of former slaves left to manage the city, return Astapor to slavery, and the Astapori flee to Dany for help):
And these failures haunt Dany throughout the book.
In her final chapter, in the midst of her fever dreams, Dany — feeling defeated by all the compromises she must make, having to tolerate injustice, only to have everything end in disaster in the fighting pits — does resolve herself to her darker impulses (“A dragon plants no trees”). I definitely think a darker Dany is coming but it remains to be seen how Dany’s decision here manifests and what struggles Dany will face in the future, I think those are only going to get harder — especially when there is still so much story to go.
Adrianacandle,
” Yeah, this happens a lot, I think. It’s actually happened to me too — where I think the remake is the original and am unaware of the actual original song (to my parents’ dismay). Off the top of my head, I can’t think of examples right now but they’ll come to me. However, I have strong images of my dad with his head in his hands and sighing upon realizing I thought the remake was the original…
Something with Mariah Carey? Ugh, this is going to bug me.”…
——
I’ve got more examples. I didn’t want to derail the ongoing MadDany discussion though.
Carry on…
Ten Bears,
Definitely give me those examples! My brain is even struggling to come up with those. Examples of remade songs I thought were originals will probably come to me in the next few weeks (or months) when I least expect them but I’m drawing a complete blank right now. It feels like they’re on the tip of my tongue.
My cognitive abilities are definitely running at half-power — I haven’t been very successful at much these days X_X It feels like my head has separated from my body most of the time.
Ten Bears,
Mad Dany was brilliant 😉
Efi,
She will light a “fire to love”.
Well then, here’s your musical interlude for the day:
“Light My Fire” (1967) – The Doors*
(7:06 full length album version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKU74Uns9_0
——
* Wyllis: “Hold the Doors!”
Adrianacandle,
” Definitely give me those examples! My brain is even struggling to come up with those. Examples of remade songs I thought were originals will probably come to me in the next few weeks (or months) when I least expect them but I’m drawing a complete blank right now. It feels like they’re on the tip of my tongue.”
Okay. I’m thinking of really egregious examples like the B.J. Thomas > Blue Swede travesty. Some remakes are quite good on their own.
Please stand by. Next example actually has a “Six Degrees of Game of Thrones” connection via Daario 1.0, Ed Skrein = Villain in “Deadpool.”
Am standing by!
Revisiting previous post of ‘literal videos’, I found some interesting (to me) information behind this trend and why not many of them are up today.
This was started by a guy named Dustin McLean, who started off with doing a ‘literal version’ of Take On Me (posted below). A commercial producer, David A. Scott, made five literal videos (including the posted ‘literal version’ of Total Eclipse of the Heart) but the attention garnered from his remade Total Eclipse of the Heart (1,000,000 views in 10 days back in 2009, retweeted by Ashton Kutcher, Perez Hilton, featured on Entertainment Weekly) resulted in Sony blocking the video.
However, “shortly before [Scott’s] account was terminated in February 2014, the video was unblocked, and surpassed eleven million [views]. It is still viewable on Funny Or Die’s website, where it has received over 100,000 views, qualifying it for “Immortal” status since April 2012.”
It appears that these ‘literal’ videos suffered a lot of copyright claim issues from Sony and there was a carousel of ban/restore/ban/restore decisions. Some are still viewable today but it appears many are not or are hard to find now.
Anyway, Take On Me — Literal Version!
Adrianacandle,
Ok. That one was good. 👌
Crap, upon reflection, I should expand upon this.
In ADWD, I think there is a conflict between these two identities, that’s true, but I don’t think it necessarily means the idea of a human child is ruled out for Dany (it’s not something I’d bet any money on, though I wouldn’t rule it out either. The bleeding at the end of ADWD feels fairly significant. If this is in GRRM’s plans, it could fall in line with Dany’s future choices) or even that it’s always one or the other. Rather, I think it’s exploring the various aspects of Dany’s character at war with one another.
In ASOS, Dany’s identities as ‘mhysa’ (to the slaves) and ‘Mother of Dragons’ did work in sync together when she sought to abolish slavery and rescue the oppressed through bloody liberations. She seeks to liberate the slaves from their captors, she seeks justice for the crucifixion of 163 slave children and she does it both with her dragons — but the kicker comes when she is confronted with the reality of her actions the next day, the chained dying men she nailed in-turn. Upon seeing this, Dany feels ill and not quite so sure of her justice. She tries to rationalize it but she, herself, is not entirely convinced. She was acting both as the mother of dragons and as a mhysa to her people when she performed this mass crucifixion of slave masters, these identities didn’t conflict with one another, but what does conflict is when Dany is confronted with the gory reality of her actions the next day and finds it unsettling.
In ADWD, Dany wants to peace, she wants to minimize bloodshed, she wants to temper her own violent impulses and she’s utterly horrified when Drogon kills a 4-year old girl, resulting in Dany realizing she doesn’t have full control over her dragons and she chains up Viserion and Rhaegal. I’ve seen interpretations saying that by doing this, it represents Dany chaining part of her identity and Dany does actively try to suppress her instinct for war against those she views as oppressors and enemies wreaking injustice for the sake of peace and general safety (even if she’s forced to accept rolling back some of her anti-slavery methods to this end).
Especially in ADWD, Dany experiences a conflict between various parts of her identity — identity being something Dany has struggled to figure out through the series: her persona as khaleesi, her identity as a young girl who yearns for the house with a red door and a lemon tree, her persona as the Mother of Dragons, her persona as Mhysa to the slaves, her desire to be a liberator for all, her desire to not be her father, her identity as an exiled Targaryen — the last Targaryen who seeks a connection with the family she lost. Sometimes these various aspects of her identity are in-sync but sometimes, they are in conflict.
Repeating what I said above, because there’s still so much story left to go at this point, I don’t think these internal wars are over but are about to get harder as Dany navigates these conflicts with identity and what she wants/feels must be achieved and the consequences/gains of these choices. In the end of ADWD, after a personally frustrating arc for this character, Dany resolves herself to her Targaryen heritage but I don’t think that means the other parts of Dany have been erased, that she’s only this one identity now, or that it’s just going to come down to a matter of being power-hungry for the throne. Personally, with Dany’s arc so far and the difficult choices she’s presented with and the struggles within herself, I’m hoping the circumstances around the burning of KL are more grey, more nuanced, with compelling reasons on both sides of the issue.
I mean, that’s what I hope…. but god only knows what GRRM has planned x_x
Ten Bears,
Yay!! I’m glad you liked that one! 😀
Typo!
*She’s consciously trying to avoid being like her father.
Adrianacandle,
“This is what ‘ruling’ is – lying on a bed of weeds, ripping them all out by the root one by one before they strangle you in your sleep.” -Cersei
Seems like Dany’s gonna be applying some hot fiery Roundup to KL.
“All rulers are either butchers or meat.”
-Daario
Dany tried to rule through compromise and compassion… and it almost got her butchered by insurgents, until her long-lost dragon came along and turned them all into rebellious little chunks of charred meat.
“There’s a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand.”
-Jorah
War has a nasty habit of making monsters of its participants, especially those on the winning side. Especially unfortunate for the losing side if the winning side has a fire-breathing dragon.
So, I don’t think it’s going to be that morally ambiguous, any more than the Sack of King’s Landing by Tywin decades earlier was morally ambiguous. And again, there will be symmetry. First, a Lannister dishonorably sacked a Targaryen-held KL. Then, a Targaryen will dishonorably sack a Lannister-held KL. A vicious cycle… like a wheel.
I can only state my hope for the character and the arc. After the series of choices and struggles her arc poses, I hope Dany isn’t made into a one-dimensional monster and I hope there’s more complexity involved with this situation in the books. Yes, I think she’s going to be more ruthless going forward toward those she perceives as her enemies, I think she’s definitely fed up with Meereen at this point, I think she’s done (at least for the time being) making concessions and compromises with those she views as appalling, but like with all of the other characters, I don’t want her to lose everything (else) of herself and have Dany just turn into her father and other power-hungry conquerors who came before her. Or into a vengeance-driven monster like LSH. I’d like there to be something that makes this situation different and I’d like there to be more grey in the culmination of her storyline.
But I’m not GRRM so I can’t state any of my speculations as fact. I can really only speculate at this point.
In the books, I don’t think this is quite correct. The peace between Meereen, Yunkai, and the Sons of the Harpy was real. The fighting pit wasn’t a set up for rebellion against Dany. The trouble came when Drogon (attracted by the fighting and smell of blood) arrived in the fighting pits and chaos erupted, during which the Yunkish leader was killed (breaking the peace with Yunkai). Then Barristan suspected Dany’s husband Hizdahr of trying to assassinate her so he deposes Hizdahr, breaking the peace with the Sons of the Harpy.
However, Dany, herself, does feel pretty hopeless and dismal about her efforts, compromises, and all the sacrifice she made for the sake of the Meereenese people and peace. She does grow more and more frustrated with having to tolerate customs she finds terrible (like the fighting pits), sacrifices she is forced to make (like turning her back on the Astapori), and rolling back on strongly held ideals (like her anti-slavery measures) — she doesn’t seem to recognize these as steps forward but as unhappy compromises that amounted to little.
Adrianacandle,
Fair enough, but even considering what show!Dany ends up doing, I never considered her to be a one-dimensional evil baddie, just like I never considered show!Cersei to be a one-dimensional evil baddie. Cersei was evil, for sure, because she enjoyed cruelty, but so did a lot of people on GoT, including Dany occasionally. But I never considered Cersei or Dany “big bads” or god-forbid “final bosses” (saw that term tossed around a lot during the final few episodes and it annoyed me immensely, as it does now).
Totally fair! 🙂 I do think Dany’s story is ultimately a case of tragic idealism, extremist idealism perhaps. Personally, I just want there to be more room for ambiguity, but that’s only my opinion and hope as one reader. But I also recognize it’s not my story and I don’t have access to GRRM’s brain so… who knows? 🙂
But I see where you’re coming from!
Adrianacandle,
All any of us can do is take our best guesses at what GRRM and D&D were/are trying to get at. Unless of course, I’m GRRM…
Characters in the books and show often take actions that are difficult to explain logically or using some kind of ideological reasoning, just like in real life. Emotions are more powerful than reason. Humans are confounding creatures.
When I see Dany flying over the streets of KL atop Drogon, incinerating civilians by the thousands as if they were insects, I can’t help but think of it as all the hurt, the heartache, the harm, the loss, the trauma, the fear, the anger, the hate she’s experienced from the time she was born, coming back out.
Farimer123,
You mustn’t do this to me because there’s always a small part of my mind that will entertain this, no matter who makes the claim 😉
But yes, I agree — we can only guess!
And thanks for your view on this. I’ve seen some of these comments echoed by Miguel Sapochnik.
Television and book media each have their individual strengths and weaknesses. In this case, while television definitely has the visual advantage, I think a benefit of the books is that we might get more detailed insight into Dany’s thoughts leading up to however King’s Landing happens in the books. I have my hopes that there will be more ambiguity in the books but they’re only hopes on my part and I appreciate how this scene worked for you (I wish I could have been a fly on the wall during that conference between D&D and GRRM 😩).
Farimer123,
It was her “guilty of being a dwarf” moment, whereupon the lifelong greviences inflicted upon the speaker transform them into a would-be mass-murderer.
“I wish I was the monster you think I am. I wish I had enough poison for the whole pack of you. I would gladly give my life to watch you all swallow it!”
Only difference was Dany’s weapon of choice was fire, not poison, and she had the means to carry this massacre out.
Adrianacandle,
Hehe, you’d need to be the fly with the biggest attention span in the world, because those were several DAYS of story conferences in his New Mexico home.
For this, my attention span would make an exception 😉
LOL…
Ugh…sad but true…
Adrianacandle,
“Gory reality”, lol, that’s a good one!
I totally agree with you, the dilemma “mother of dragons-mother of people” does not have anything to do with her ability to bear children or not.
It’s symbolic of her different personalities, it encapsulates the struggle within her between these identities. However, she’s the one making this connection, so in her mind these two represent two different sides of her, sides which do not go hand in hand with each other.
The tragedy of Dany’s arc in ADWD is that all her efforts have failed. By compromising herself bit by bit she gives away little parts of her herself, of her ideals and principles and the failure will weigh heavily on her once she comes to realize it. She has tried hard, but success depended much on the honor of the other parties -of the Sons of the Harpy, the masters, even of the people she has freed herself-, meaning on their ability to keep their part of the deal.
In the face of such failure and despite all her efforts, the conclusion “dragons plant no trees” seems only logical, if the other route proved to be a dead end. If I were in her shoes, I’d have come to the same point.
And this is the dilemma the author puts before his readers: Dany possesses that power that is not only game-changer, but also can re-shape the world. Will she use it, and if she does, to what extent is her decision justified, in-universe but also by the readers too?
I think that by the end of ADWD the shaping of her character is complete to a greater degree than all the other characters of the book. She is aware of the full significance of her actions (because she is perceptive and smart) and she will not waver much more. It remains to be seen what will she do with the Dothraki, but even with them she will not have any qualms to recruit them for her purpose. She will use her strength, that which Drogon gives her and that which she has found within her, to solve the problems that have arisen with her decisions. I doubt that it will be pretty, but perhaps before she returns to Meereen Tyrion will have managed to put some order in all that chaos.
If she made mistakes in Meereen, I think it’s that she compromised on all fronts. She should have kept some things out of the negotiations, e.g. the torture, or the fighting pits; little things that matter the most that would have preserved the core of her beliefs intact. But once she decided to marry Hizdar, she gave up everything and the result is that her enemies turned against her.
I hadn’t thought about her moonblood in these terms before. Perhaps there will be a significance to it. It comes when she decides that she is the “blood of the dragon”, the identity that she had put aside in Meereen. But you’re wrong that she didn’t bleed after MMD:
“She tried to remember the last time she had bled. The last full moon? The one before? “I am the blood of the dragon”, she told the grass, aloud.”
She believes in the magic of Targaryen blood; she thinks that Targaryens are strong and healthy because of it. So her moonblood at this point enhances this identity, it connects her to it once again. Perhaps it will play a role in her future too. What will she do, for example, when she comes to meet fAegon and when she finds out who Jon is? How will that affect her decisions? Will she want to procreate for continuing the Targaryen line of pure blood and what will she do if Jon refuses? To what extent will this play a role in her final act? Perhaps there’s a story there that hasn’t unfolded yet.
[darn D&D! all those unfinished threads!]
Fandom: “Okay, Mr. Fly, what’d he say? What’d he say!”
Mr. Fly: “I kinda forgot. I’m trying to remember. I have some good days and some bad days, but I’m making progress.”
Fandom: (Swat!)
Adrianacandle,
“The peace between Meereen, Yunkai, and the Sons of the Harpy was real. The fighting pit wasn’t a set up for rebellion against Dany. The trouble came when Drogon (attracted by the fighting and smell of blood) arrived in the fighting pits and chaos erupted, during which the Yunkish leader was killed (breaking the peace with Yunkai).”
The small objection I have to this is that you don’t come to peace negotiations with an army and your mercenary companies. Hizdar was deceived as well. He believed that giving to the Yunkai’i what they wanted would secure peace. It wouldn’t; it only made them look feeble, which the Yunkai’i took advantage of to press their claims.
Imo the situation as it was meant war with Yunkai, and Hizdar is an idiot. Dany should have given the Meereenese nobility the marriage with their noble, and wage war on Yunkai for what they did to Astapor.
Farimer123,
“So, I don’t think it’s going to be that morally ambiguous, any more than the Sack of King’s Landing by Tywin decades earlier was morally ambiguous. And again, there will be symmetry. First, a Lannister dishonorably sacked a Targaryen-held KL. Then, a Targaryen will dishonorably sack a Lannister-held KL. A vicious cycle… like a wheel.”
I kind of agree with this view mostly because I think that Dany’s character will be fully shaped by the time she comes to that decision, only that the consequences of Dany’s attack will not compare to Tywin’s. Her motives will be clear to her and to others and this will remove any ambiguity.
There’s parallels and there’s divergence of parallels in ASoIaF, and it’s all very deliberate on the part of the author.
For example, Jamie killed Aerys before he incinerated the entire city, but Jon will only kill Daenerys after the catastrophe. Jamie dishonored himself and saved lives, but Jon won’t. (and I hate it)
In the Red Wedding, Frey has a grandson at his side, a boy with a mental disability named Aegon-Jinglebells. Catelyn slits his throat, and the significance of the event is enhanced, or maybe blurred, by the fact that Bolton says to Robb “Jamie Lannister sends his regards”.
[tbh the entire significance of recalling the massacre of Rhaegar’s children escapes me]
Efi,
Well, they do coincide at times — such as in ACOK and ASOS but they didn’t for most of ADWD because Dany was opting for peace, to be a peaceful ruler and protector for her people, instead of utilizing violence to protect those who she saw as her children as she as doing in ASOS.
(I should be careful to note I’m referring to aspects of somebody’s personality, which can sometimes conflict, rather than personalities conflicting which is a whole different thing and a serious mental disorder, one Dany doesn’t have, so I’m not trying to say Dany has Multiple Personality Disorder where she changes identities entirely!)
Oh, but these efforts didn’t actually fail — the peace was real, Yunkai and the Harpy did not go back on their word until their interests were harmed (the Yunkish leader being killed during the chaos in the fighting pits after Drogon arrives and Barristan removing Hizdahr from power). However, what this peace required was compromise on Dany’s part as well: she was having to compromise some of her ideals to maintain it.
From the Meereense Knot‘s analysis entitled, ‘The Peace Was Real’:
How Dany and many readers view it and given how Dany felt about her compromises, it makes sense for Dany to be absolutely fed up. She’s having to tolerate things she views as morally unconscionable, she’s having to make personal sacrifices but she doesn’t seem to recognize that the peace was a success, bloodshed did stop for quite some time — but it came at a great cost.
I think this is one of the questions, yes, and when it’s against terrible people — such as the slavers — and she’s using her power to free the helpless, it does seem for good purposes. And I think this largely depends on who Dany views as helpless, as sympathetic, and who she views as an enemy and why.
I wouldn’t agree that the shaping of Dany’s character is complete while everyone’s is in incomplete — not when there’s still so much story to go. To me, that feels like shortchanging Dany’s character development while allowing others to change, grow, develop, struggle. I think Dany, especially as one of GRRM’s main characters and POVs, still has quite a bit more to go through or she’s pretty one-dimensional if all she is now is a conquering tyrant determined to take her claim by whatever power she can secure and has no qualms about anything she does now.
I think there definitely will be chaos, yes, and it’s not going to be pretty but I don’t think Dany’s struggles within herself are over yet while everyone else’s are still ongoing. She’s a pretty complex character.
I agree that Dany compromised too much and this is among the mistakes GRRM has his young leaders making (namely Robb, Jon, and Dany). At the same time, had Dany not conceded, the peace may not have lasted so long. Everything was ruined by the unexpected arrival of Drogon at the fighting pits, nothing anybody planned on or intended.
We don’t really know when the last full moon was and even Dany can’t remember when she last bled. It’s only the year 300AC and MMD died in 299AC, when she told Dany that she will never bear a child.
It feels like this is significant to the narrative because it’s the first time it mentions Dany bleeding — and Dany bleeding heavily.
Dany doesn’t believe this of her fertility though, all of her thoughts indicate she believes herself to be barren. Dany only wonders when she last bled and notes it’s so heavy.
I think these are good questions to ponder but at this point, Dany still believes herself to be barren — a belief I don’t see changing unless she actually gets pregnant. Dany also laments being the last Targaryen, she seeks a connection with her lost family, and she deeply desires to have a child of her own blood, a little girl, but believes having her own child will never be possible. It also appears Dany believes the Iron Throne is part of her destiny and that the taking back Westeros will provide her with what she is seeking: home, a connection to family, fulfilling her purpose, destiny, a way to right the wrongs of the world. Dany is still a character of deep feeling and I think emotion guides many of her. I think this is where some of her struggle will occur, the conflict she has between these desires and feelings.
I think Young Griff may throw a wrench into Dany’s plans — he has the Targaryen looks, he wants the throne, he was raised to be a king with an education Dany lacks, he has Varys’s backing, he doesn’t have a notorious reputation in-universe, and if Dorne (and other Westerosi) believe Young Griff to be truly the believed-to-be-dead-son of Elia and Rhaegar, Young Griff may have a good chance at successfully rallying kingdoms of Westeros.
I’d say darn those books still not being completed 🙁
Efi,
Yunkai may have taken advantage but they still didn’t do anything to break the peace until their leader was killed during the disaster in the fighting pits. The Sons of the Harpy stopped all killings when she married Hizdahr — neither Yunkai or the Harpy did anything to break the peace or appeared to have any plans of going back on their deals until the disaster in the fighting pits happened when Drogon returned and Barristan removed Hizdahr.
The peace was fragile, all parties still hated each other, but there still existed a peace and a time without bloodshed without any indication that Yunkai or the Harpy were planning to renege
Perhaps but Dany reflects that violence is why Astapor is in the shape it’s in now, that she made things worse when she sought to use violence to help them, and feels deep guilt over it so she’s trying to use other methods to achieve safety and protection for her people:
There are consequences either way. Dany’s violent conquest of Yunkai clearly didn’t scare them off from taking Astapor, returning it to slavery, and later marching on Meereen after their leader was killed in the fighting pits.
I think, without ambiguity, complexity, and by making Dany worse than Tywin (especially if she’s doing it just for power and nothing else is motivating her), it paints the situation as too black and white in my opinion and makes Dany too one-dimensional. That doesn’t seem to be GRRM’s style. I also feel that stopping Dany’s character development (if that’s what you mean by completing) at the end of ADWD when Dany’s story is far from over, this kind of undermines the character’s complexity because she’s not continuing to face conflict, dilemma, and development.
I think this is pretty different from the idea that Dany will go berserk over a claim and burn a city full of unarmed civilians down due to power lust for the throne — Dany is the sole aggressor in this speculation and is theorized to be doing it all for power, not for ideals or anything else. In the situation referenced above, the Freys/Boltons/Lannisters are the aggressors and they have lured Catelyn, Robb, Jeyne, and their forces under false premises into a trap designed to slaughter them. Catelyn took an innocent boy, Jinglebells, hostage in a last-ditch effort to get Walder Frey to let her son go. However, when Robb was killed, Catelyn made good on her word and slit the boy’s throat. Jinglebells was totally innocent but Catelyn wasn’t the only one responsible for the situation Jinglebells found himself in. The Freys created this trap for the Starks and it was set up by Walder to get his revenge against Robb for Robb breaking his word. Walder is aided by the Lannisters and Boltons and their intent is to kill the Starks and their forces. The Red Wedding wasn’t prompted by Catelyn waging war on the Freys and taking Jinglebells hostage for the sake of power. Catelyn used Jinglebells as a last-ditch effort to save her child but Walder Frey didn’t care.
(Not condoning Catelyn’s killing of the boy but this situation is quite a bit more complex than the proposed situation with Dany, IMO).
Efi,
Oh! I should clarify something just in case! When I said this–
I realize this might come off as accusatory in tone so I want to be 100000% clear that I’m not saying you were saying Dany had Multiple Personality Disorder, not at all! I don’t think that’s what you’re saying! I was trying to clarify my own wording and intent 🙂
I’m sorry if that came off accusatory. I was reviewing my posts and I was afraid I gave that impression 🙁
This has been a pretty interesting debate and I didn’t want this paragraph from me to spoil the tone :/
Fine analysis. I agree with you on her eventual arrival to Westeros in the books: what people thinks she is (“she’s the Mad King’s daughter” idea and some misinformation about her previous deeds) will play a pivotal role for her ending, even if that’s not what she really is.
I think what drives Daenerys is more complex than power, however. Power is only a part of the equation. If we go back to the beginning of ASOIAF and GoT, Daenerys’ first wish is going home, but she doesn’t really know what home is. After all, she has spent her childhood moving from place to place. She goes everywhere and belongs nowhere, even if she misses the house in Braavos. The strongest idea of home of hers turns out to be all the things her brother told her about King’s Landing, the place where her family lived and ruled Westeros for almost 300 years. The idea of finally having a home helps her make sense of her journey.
Other important idea in her arc is destiny. That idea is enhanced by the birth of the dragons, but also by the slaves reality she witness in Slaver’s Bay. From that momente, she wants to give a better life to those who can’t have it, even if she may not know how to do it. All these traits are, from my point of view, relevant to her endgame and much more interesting than the possible genes she inherited from her father (it’s curious that her mother is never mentioned in these genetics explanation BS, but it is what it is).
Your paragraph sums up what I think the character is about.
If genetic odds are the most decisive factor to decide the ending of Daenerys, one of the main characters of ASOIAF and GoT, I have to say that most of her scenes in the show and pages in the books are just wasted space and screentime.
I also disagree with your take on the Mirri Maz Duur subject. The Dothraki pillaged the Lhazareen lands after she has persuaded Khal Drogo to go to Westeros. However, it must be said that she has never experienced a Dothraki sack. She was very naive then and didn’t really know how that operation would work out. If she witnessed the pillage without remorse, I’d agree that she was heatless by then.
But in 1×08 we see a person appalled by what the Dothraki are doing on her behalf. It’s the first time we see Daenerys concerned with the downtrodden.
She saves the women she can save, Mirri Maz Duur among them. Daenerys trusts Mirri to heal Drogo. Mirri betrays her trust and on top of that causes the death of her son. In their last conversation, Mirri tells life isn’t worthy after everything you hold dear is taken from you. Despite that statement, her life was still worthy to take revenge on Daenerys, a person that wronged her, but showed regret for what has done and trusted her after that. If wasn’t worth anymore by then, Mirri should ask the Dothraki for a clean death when they were still sacking the village to avoid more suffering. Daenerys doesn’t turn the other cheek like Jesus Christ and kills her afterwards, in fire, believing in the birth of the dragons. She takes her revenge in Mirri, which is wrong. Maybe the dragons are the curse of her wrong deed.
I don’t know how some people say that Mirri was right and Daenerys wrong in this affair. Daenerys did some things right and some things wrong in all that situations, just as Mirri. It was as grey as it can get.
Adrianacandle,
Efi,
To: Efi, Adrianacandle, Tiago, Farimar123, et al.:
I think you should all collaborate and finish writing Dany’s story.
Lord knows the Big Kahuna isn’t going to do it.
I’m afraid I wouldn’t be creative enough to write a proper ending, although I’ve never tried to write a fan-fic. This is George’s story. It’s up to him finish it. I believe we’ll have The Winds of Winter. I doubt there will be more books after that one, though. If the series isn’t completed, we still have GoT. I made my peace with the ending, even if my opinion hasn’t changed a year later: the last two seasons should be better, after what we’ve got in the first six.
By the way, are you planning to read the books someday?
I’m particularly willing to start a prayer circle involving blood sacrifice. I have several sacrifices in mind.
(I’m going to regret admitting this but one time, on a rainy afternoon, I did a speck of weed and wrote a Harry Potter crack smut fic. I think it’s my finest work. It’s terrible. One of the reviews read “bruh.” Only “bruh.”)
Do it, do it, do it 🙂
LOL. Reminds me of this meme between GRRM and Stephen King.
Speaking of Dany’s story, I feel like her story (along with the stories of most everyone else) could go on for longer. D&D put in seeds throughout the series, especially from S6 onward, that hinted at potential future plotlines.
In particular, this whole thing going on with Volantis. Kinvara, the red priestess from there who seems as talented a divinator as Melisandre, knew about things she couldn’t have possibly known about though non-supernatural means. She correctly predicted that Dany’s dragons (only one, as it turned out) would “purify nonbelievers by the thousands, burning their sins and flesh away.” I’m quite certain religion was not at the forefront of Dany’s mind when she incinerated tens of thousands of soldiers and civilians, but Melisandre once said that even those who do not worship the Lord of Light can still contribute to his cause.
And speaking of Melisandre, right after having “brought Ice and Fire together”, she left Westeros and sailed across the Narrow Sea to Volantis. Why? She was on a tight schedule; she must have foreseen that the war against the White Walkers was going to come to a head soon, so she must have had a very pressing reason to go there. Perhaps it was to get something ready or to provide guidance?
And at Bran’s Small Council, they discussed the whereabouts of Drogon. “He was last spotted flying east toward V-“ began Samwell before he was cut off. Bran then sets out to try and find him, probably via warging. D&D confirmed in the commentary for the last episode that Samwell was going to say “Volantis.” Again, why?
It’s been theorized before, but Drogon is probably being instinctively guided to Volantis by red priests and priestesses, particularly Kinvara. There’s a good chance that the Lord of Light does have some connection to the dragons. Why have Dany go there? Simple: to resurrect her. She was betrayed and stabbed in the heart, just as Jon was. Perhaps she’ll be lying on the table, they’ll perform sacred rites, and suddenly she’ll awake with a start just like Jon did. And she’ll likely not be too happy with what happened…
Like you hope, I suspect GRRM will “leave room for ambiguity” when it comes to Dany incinerating KL. (I’ve said this before): I would think Big G will set up Dany to make a “no-win” decision between two unpalatable alternatives, e.g., with the AotD about to breach the walls of KL and add 1,000,000 new recruits, Jon Snow may want to play Mr. Hero and rush in to defend the city against all odds, but Dany will overrule him.
Channeling Ripley from “Aliens,” Dany will insist:
“I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9aM4rH692M
– Ripley, and Corporal Hicks, in “Aliens”
——-
As a pre-books fan, that’s my totally unfounded, ultra tinfoil prediction, and I’m sticking to it unless and until GRRM debunks it. 🤫
Adrianacandle,
?? I can’t download the Stephen King/GRRM meme you linked. 🤢
Ten Bears,
I was thinking of some of the scenarios you proposed when I wrote my comments 🙂
As for the Stephen King/GRRM meme, I just realized the extension isn’t an image extension 🙁 Give me a few minutes and I’ll screen cap and upload to a temp image hosting service (since it’s not my image)!
Ten Bears,
Here we go!
https://a.uguu.se/hEaSDaBMFGek.jpg
Farimer123,
”In particular, this whole thing going on with Volantis. Kinvara, the red priestess from there who seems as talented a divinator as Melisandre, knew about things she couldn’t have possibly known about though non-supernatural means. She correctly predicted that Dany’s dragons (only one, as it turned out) would “purify nonbelievers by the thousands, burning their sins and flesh away.” I’m quite certain religion was not at the forefront of Dany’s mind when she incinerated tens of thousands of soldiers and civilians, but Melisandre once said that even those who do not worship the Lord of Light can still contribute to his cause…”
Yes! I’m convinced Kinvara and her predictions were some of the mysteries and foreshadowings set up by the show in accordance with GRRM’s template…and ultimately jettisoned to save time. (Or else, why introduce Kinvara to begin with? Why have her spook Varys with knowledge of his past, and speak so confidently about Dany “purifying” non-believers by the thousands? Her one scene left so many things open-ended…)
As it was, the show gave the Lord of Light short shrift with Davos’s throwaway line in S8e4: [Not verbatim]: Something about humans doing the Lord of Light’s bidding, and then he just “f*cks off” with no explanation.
Ten Bears,
Here’s Davos’s “throwaway” line in S8e4:
Davos & Tyrion, S8e4 (talking about Melisandre)
Davos: “The last time I saw her, I told her I’d kill her if I ever saw her again.”
Tyrion: “I’m sure you had your reasons.”
Davos: “I did. I do.”
Tyrion: “So did you?”
Davos: “Never got the chance. She did it to herself. Or her god did it to her. Lord of Light. We play his game for him, we fight his war and win, and then he f*cks off. No signs, no blessings. Who knows what he wants?”
Correct me if I’m wrong. Was that the last time there was any mention of the Lord of Light on the show? For a deity who apparently sent his disciples (eg Beric, Melisandre) to support his unwitting agents (Sandor Ahai – I mean Sandor Clegane, and Arya Stark aka ASNAWPTWP) to ensure the defeat of the WWs, the Lord of Light got the bum’s rush after the Long Night.
Adrianacandle,
Was this an actual conversation between GRRM and Stephen King?
Yes but the meme shortens the actual conversation a bit and takes some liberties with tone (eg. King answers, “No,” but his response don’t end there, he has more to say and he seems to sympathize with GRRM. I think this clip is worth watching.)
Here is the actual clip!
Ten Bears,
They made a point of having Melisandre go to Volantis in S7, and it’s been mentioned by D&D and HBO more than once that S7 and S8 were conceived together. It shows: they’re two halves of the same arc, and they even have the exact same structures, only inverted – S7 starts with 4h of Dany’s Conquest, then has 3h20m of White Walkers, S8 starts with 3h20m of White Walkers, then ends with 4h of Dany’s Conquest.
Even up until the last scene with several characters at Bran’s Small Council, they mentioned Volantis, and implied Bran was going to try and find Drogon. Why did they include those? Just for shits and giggles? Or for potential sequel hooks?
D&D generally don’t like to leave loose ends. They even found quite a lot of time in S6 to wrap up the Blackfish’s storyline, even though the only evidence that he was even alive stemmed from ONE OR TWO THROWAWAY LINES from Roose and Walder back in the S3 finale.
Ten Bears,
If there’s one thing I’m 99.9999% sure of about the planned book ending, it’s that there’s no way in hell those White Walkers are making it past Winterfell. How do I know? Because such a situation would COMPLETELY change the ending, literally changing EVERYTHING about it. And George has gone on record stating that the endings aren’t going to be that different, only when it comes to certain supporting characters (i.e. the Hound).
He compared the endings to his books and the show to the endings of the novel and movie Gone With the Wind. Those endings are different in a some relatively minor ways, like for example the number of children Scarlett has, but the gist of everything else from the main ideas to the story beats, are essentially the same.
Think of the planned fates of Winterfell and King’s Landing in the books like this:
Towards the beginning of the series, Winterfell is seized fairly easily, then many of its inhabitants are massacred. King’s Landing is subjected to a great nightly assault, nearly falls, but ultimately stands firm.
Towards the end of the series, Winterfell is subjected to a great nightly assault, nearly falls, but ultimately stands firm. King’s Landing is seized fairly easily, then many of its inhabitants are massacred.
Ten Bears,
The only way I can see Jon deciding to kill Dany is if Dany had clearly became unhinged and Jon had good cause to believe that his family (Sansa and all the rest) would ultimately perish by her hand. And Tyrion will have a big part in persuading him to do so. What was it he once said? “I’m not particularly good at violence, but I’m good at convincing others to do violence for me.” I can’t think of any other time in the show or books that line would be more relevant than at the very end with Jon and Dany.
Farimer123,
“D&D confirmed in the commentary for the last episode that Samwell was going to say “Volantis.” Again, why?”
Because ancient Valyria is not too far away. Tyrion sailed through it and saw Drogon there for the first time.
Ah! their famous call-backs!
Well, it doesn’t seem Jon was set on killing Dany by the time he left Tyrion, even when Tyrion brought up Sansa and Arya. Jon still tried to persuade Dany toward mercy. I believe Kit Harington said on the DVD special that Jon didn’t know he was going to betray Dany until the end of the conversation (around Dany’s line, “They don’t get to choose”).
The endings can be the same for the main characters and I believe they will be. However, the plots leading up to these conclusions don’t need to be quite the same. Similarities, yes absolutely, and I believe the concepts are basically the same but GRRM also mentioned the “butterfly effect” causing changes.
There are many things happening in the books that haven’t made it to the show. Characters too. And I think these will have a ripple effect so I don’t think the final books are going to align exactly with how seasons 6-8 went. For example, Sansa’s show story, for instance, was merged with Jeyne Poole’s and I don’t think she’ll be marrying Ramsay in the books. Stannis might very well still be alive. Shireen is still alive (and I think she’ll be burned for another purpose). Euron is very different in the books with a different story. Magic is a big thing in the books, far bigger than it is in the show (but I understand why D&D toned this down). In regard to how circumstances may differ, the threat of the Others might not be completely resolved by the time King’s Landing burns (perhaps the human forces believe they have won but the threat still lingers and the Wall still has a purpose) and may require a more involved conclusion rather than one battle for Winterfell. The Others have been a pretty significant story in the books from the beginning. GRRM also said there is more to the Others than what appears. Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa is still a thing in the books and there are theories centering on that.
It’s hard to know what the differences will be until those books are out, if they ever come out, but I don’t think it’s going to align exactly with what the show did. The show had limitations (like number of hours and the necessity of adaptation distillation) that the book don’t in this area.
As I said, I think the endings will certainly be the same but perhaps the circumstances will be a bit different.
Ten Bears,
Alas, Martin’s book is a very fine embroidery, and as I’ve stated before, I suck at embroideries…
I do have some good ideas about where the book is going though based on foreshadow, I could help him make a diagram, or bullet points or sth.
And perhaps with some aid he could also recall himself where all this foreshadow was going in the first place, lol.
Perhaps he could re-connect.
Adrianacandle,
It’s not like that was the first time it had occurred to Jon to kill Dany. That whole 10-minute conversation with Tyrion didn’t quite convince Jon on its own, but it certainly got him at least halfway there, with the big deciding factor being the safety of Jon’s sisters. As he walked from Tyrion’s cell to the throne room, he was still hoping against hope that he could persuade Dany to forgive Tyrion and change her approach to things. But Dany kept giving him all the wrong answers. Finally, at “They don’t get to chose,” his mind was set. Jon will kill Dany, his Queen to whom he swore himself, in order to protect those he loves.
Aemon: “Love is the death of duty. If your lord father was forced to choose between honor in one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”
Jon: “He would do what was right, no matter what.”
Aemon: “Then Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is honor compared to the feel of a newborn son in your arms, or a brother’s smile?”
Jon: “Sam told you.”
Aemon: “We’re only human. Oh, we all do our duty when there’s no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. But, sooner or later, in every man’s life, there comes a day when it is not easy. A day when he must choose.
8×6
Tyrion: “Why do you think Sansa told me the truth about you?! Because she doesn’t want Dany to be Queen!”
Jon: “She doesn’t get to choose!”
Tyrion: “No, but you do! And you have to choose now!”
later…
Jon: “What is right, what I did?”
Tyrion: “What we did.”
Jon: “It doesn’t feel right.”
Tyrion: “Ask me again in ten years.”
The way the whole “bells ring, they surrender, Dany agonizes for a long spell, then sees the Red Keep, and decides to burn them all” scene played out in the show… there was something very deliberate and focused about it. The scene is very sure of itself. They even named that entire episode after it. The very first shot of King’s Landing in the pilot has bells ringing. The first close-up shot of anything in that city is a very detailed look at the bells chiming, before we even see the inside of the Red Keep for Jaime and Cersei’s first scene. All of that cannot be a coincidence. The White Walkers will not be a factor, any more than Sauron was a factor in the Scouring of the Shire. I could be wrong about this, but I don’t think I am: most everything that Dany does in the final two or three episodes is straight from the Big Kahuna himself.
The show gave us ten episodes for summer, then five times ten episodes for autumn (AKA the War of the FIVE Kings; one of them died in each season), then finally ten episodes for winter – all of S7, and the first three episodes of S8, culminating in The Long Night. Everything after S8E3 is the epilogue, what comes next after the big final battle to avert the apocalypse.
“One of two things will happen: either the dead will defeat in the living, in which case all of our troubles come to an end, or life will win out. And what then?”
Tyrion was the one who was pushing Jon to kill Dany and making all of these arguments (that she was a threat to the people and Arya and Sansa) and yes, and Jon was hoping Dany would change her mind but I don’t think Jon was halfway to his decision to kill Dany at this point because he still had that hope. Per the show, script, and D&D, Jon also loved Dany too, that’s why he was fighting against the notion of killing her whereas, if it were somebody else who democided a city after surrender, somebody he didn’t love, Jon wouldn’t need that final factor to push him over into that decision (and his sisters weren’t the only factor but it seems they were that final factor). Per Kit Harington, Jon didn’t go there with the intent to kill Dany — not making that decision until the end of his conversation with her. That seems to be when it dawns on Jon that Dany won’t be backing down (“What about everyone else? All the other people who think they know what’s good?”/”They don’t get to choose”) and it was that which convinced him.
Sure, there are parallels, and that also applied to Jon’s reluctance to kill Dany. She is somebody he loves vs. protecting the people (as framed by Tyrion in this conversation). At the same time, Jon also had a legal duty to Dany and he loved his family, who would be among the people Dany was now a threat to. It feels like a conflict (love vs. love and duty vs. duty) on both sides. And, per the bit of dialogue you pointed out, Jon still doesn’t feel right about what he did — because of his personal feelings for her.
Still, everything you’re referencing in this post are specifics from the show and the show is still missing many things from the books. We barely know the Others yet in the books or what they want. I don’t think it’s going to be so simple in the books.
ASOIAF isn’t trying to be a second LoTR. It’s an examination of LoTR and GRRM has some criticisms of LoTR.
I’m not saying King’s Landing won’t burn or Dany won’t have a big hand in that, but I think there is room for some details to be different, as D&D and GRRM said there will be.
Farimer123,
Gah, I should clarify a point I made ^^;;
When I said this —
I want to quickly clarify for anyone reading that I didn’t mean that’s all ASOIAF is. But I think GRRM does use his work to answer some issues he had with Lord of the Rings — a series GRRM obviously loves but a series he has (per his own wording) some quibbles with:
(This is why I think there might be some ambiguity added to the situation with the Others! ;D Speaking of, Kevin has all sorts of intriguing theories on the heart trees, the Children of the Forest, and the Others.)
I think the show has the bare-bones of the ending and probably what led up to it, absolutely, and I think it had many of what will probably be the show’s culminating concepts down but I think there will be some differences as D&D and GRRM both have said there will be. I can pull up those quotes if you like!
But even before the show ran out of book material to source, there were already differences. For example, the circumstances of Jon’s assassination in the show aren’t quite what they were in the books, there are some pretty big differences. Tyrion didn’t go through his very dark period on the show. Robb’s marriage to Jeyne Westerling vs. his marriage to Talisa. Theon helped Jeyne Poole escape Winterfell and I believe she’s now on her way to the Wall instead of Sansa.
I think the show has the basic plot down, the basic concepts, but they had to streamline stuff and had to get rid of quite a bit of stuff to tell this story within ten hour seasons (or seven and six hour season) — and it’s a very complex story. Even at the Austin Film Festival, D&D talked about how they had to cull some of the story to make it adaptable for TV since the story was so vast and GRRM didn’t make it to be adapted to television.
However, to D&D’s credit, they actually managed to finish 😉
Somebody’s got to be #300. It may as well be me. So here’s Lena Headey in… “300.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axIFeCPvyQs
—-
Ten Bears,
You are! You are!
Adrianacandle,
“There are consequences either way. Dany’s violent conquest of Yunkai clearly didn’t scare them off from taking Astapor, returning it to slavery, and later marching on Meereen after their leader was killed in the fighting pits.”
Correction. Dany didn’t conquer Yunkai violently. She attacked their army outside the city, and then the Yunkai’i let the people out, like she had requested in their negotiations. After that Dany moved to Meereen, settled there, and the Yunkai’i attacked Astapor, and then they sent their army to Meereen.
The attack on Astapor was a violent act against Dany. She’d be very much excused if she declared war on them at that point. If I am not mistaken, Barristan suggested war, but Dany turned him down because she didn’t want to leave Meereen unprotected. Barristan was right, and this was a wrong decision imo. In the books Dany regrets that she didn’t destroy Yunkai when she could and she’s right about it.
So, as I see it, there was no true peace with Yunkai. The only thing that this affair secured for her was peace inside the walls of Meereen, which was not Yunkai’s business anyway. She married Hizdar for it and he made a free city subject to the whims of the Yunkai’i for no reason. Marrying Hizdar and waging war on Yunkai would have been a far better route to take for getting herself out of this impasse.
Adrianacandle,
I still think there’s some road for her to travel though I do think she’s more shaped than others in the book. In my opinion she’s already struggling too much in Meereen (with herself) for this to continue in the same manner in the next book. Considering that the peace failed in Meereen she’ll be determined to give an end to the situation the way she can.
But I believe that by the time she comes before her final decision she’ll be very resolved on what she will do and I don’t think that makes her one-dimensional, it makes her complete. She has struggled enough so far, and there’s a little more to go, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be important, or that she won’t develop further as a character. She has struggled between being a wife and a mistress, a queen and a friend, good and bad, just and vindictive, and so much more.
While it it clear that Dany was in search of a place to belong, I think that her arc in Meereen is all about rejecting this need and deciding to be a conqueror. Some have theorized that she confounds the “throne” with “home”, but I don’t think that’s exactly true. These two are two different poles pulling her and represent two different sides of her character, one that longs peace and love and a family and one that seeks the conquest, the connection with her ancestors, her “destiny”. And her last chapter in my opinion shows that she decides for the latter.
In a nutshell, “home” and the “throne” is her dilemma with all their implications. [Jon’s is “love, duty, honor”]
So I don’t think that when she’ll reach Westeros she’ll waver about that anymore. For example, even if she found someone to fall in love with (Jon or unknown X) she wouldn’t decide to come to terms with the regime in KL and stay in Dragonstone to start making a family. She’ll be focused on the throne, not exactly for the throne’s sake, but because it will represent all her struggles and will make everything she’s been through meaningful. In this sense, the throne is much more than “power”, but it will be her definitive target.
[This is what the line “no less hungry” means imo]
I don’t believe all that makes her one-dimensional. She’s not Cersei, who wants power for power and goes mad at the throught that only men wield it and she’d rather have been born a man.
However, in that context, her destruction of KL will be very clear.
The show left this ambiguity hanging. They made her look unstable and even crazy and in the end they even cast doubt on her murder.
“Was it right”?
Well, this question will not be left pending in the book. This is where the divergent parallel with Jamie comes in. Jamie was forever dishonored for preventively killing a king, but Jon won’t kill her for preventing mass murder, it will have been accomplished and no one will have any doubts as to whether Dany would have to die. So there will be no ambiguity about Dany’s ending in the book.
[unless of course Martin wants to leave us with doubt as to whether a violent mass murderer may be excused for his actions]
This, however, does not mean that the characters won’t struggle with themselves for getting there.
Dany marched on Yunkai, defeated its army, and forced its surrender through battle. That seems like a conquest of Yunkai via because violence through battle is how Dany won the city, whereupon she liberated the slaves. They tried offering her money so she’d leave and go to Westeros but Dany refused. As soon as Dany leaves for Meereen, Yunkai returns to its slaving ways.
Dany may be excused but that wasn’t what Dany wanted at this point. Dany wanted to minimize bloodshed and to protect her people, she didn’t want to subject them to more war.
Yet after the peace deal and Yunkai agreed to peace terms (they be allowed to resume slavery outside Meereen’s walls while they permit Dany’s existing freedmen to remain free), Yunkai made no attempt to resume their attack on the city or force Dany’s people back into slavery. It is a rough compromise but as Dany notes, it might be perhaps the best she can hope for:
Yunkai was fighting for their (slaving) way of life and existence, that’s why they were planning to march on Meereen, but war was not in their best interest either because, as Feldman points out, Yunkai is “famed for training bedslaves, not warriors, and the Yunkish host is considered remarkably unimpressive by Quentyn and his fellow Windblown sellswords.” It would be a hard, costly fight against Dany, not the near defenseless slaughter they experienced with Astapor.
The Yunkai didn’t trust Dany — but they trusted Hizdahr more and were willing to accept terms if Hizdahr had a share of the power as insurance. Once these terms were met, it remains that Yunkai still did not attack until after their leader was killed during the chaos in the fighting pits and Hizdahr was removed from power by Barristan.
It may be none of Yunkai’s business but that’s not going to stop Yunkai from attacking the city because Meereen is outside of their jurisdiction — war isn’t in their interest either but the Yunkish nobles are wanting to defend their way of life and their rights as they see them. If they must do that via war, war it is. However, if there is a better option (as noted above) — like negotiation and compromise (a fragile peace with Dany allowing them to slave while they leave Meereen and Dany’s freedmen alone) — they’ll take that. And it seems they do, resulting in a fragile peace.
Dany wants no more bloodshed. Yunkai wants to return to its way of life. If Yunkai allows Meereen and its people to exist in peace, not force Dany’s freedmen back into slavery, the peace allows for them to avoid a costly and hard war with Dany while they can practice slavery outside of Meereen. If Dany allows Hizdahr to have a share of the power and permits Yunkai to resume its slaving practices outside of Meereen, Yunkai does not attack and Dany does not have to subject her people to more war and loss of innocent life.
I’d say this doesn’t constitute “no reason”. Dany didn’t want more war and she wanted to minimize bloodshed and protect the people. She realized the cost of violence and was trying to suppress her darker urges. One emotional reason Dany opts for compromise over war is due to her guilt over Astapor. Per the above quote, Dany felt she made matters worse for Astapor with her violent liberations (“A girl I thought I’d saved from rape and torment [in Astapor]. All I did was make it worse for her in the end. And all I did in Astapor was make ten thousand Eroehs.”).
Maybe waging war on Yunkai would have been a better choice in the end — but it’s not the choice Dany felt was best at the time. And as GRRM explores, there are consequences to every decision.
Efi,
Yet, just because these characters have faced this conflicts before, it doesn’t mean they can’t revisit them again — especially at an escalated level in more difficult, high-stakes circumstances. Characters do seem to revisit some of the same conflicts multiple times and the stakes become higher.
All of the characters have struggled and been shaped tremendously by events they’ve experienced but if their struggles and development are allowed to continue while Dany’s is completed, despite having much more story to experience, I think that would be stalling Dany’s own development.
Well, at the end of ADWD, Dany’s not rejecting finding a place to belong or rejecting the notion of home. She’s rejecting Meereen as home, feeling she cannot truly belong there:
___
I agree there are multiple sides pulling at Dany and I think these will continue to pull. Yet, in some ways, Dany seems to think that she’ll find home when she takes the throne, a place to belong in a world she has struggled to find any place in. The Iron Throne is the last remnants of her lost family’s dynasty, the last tangible connection she has in lieu of flesh and blood family members. Dany laments being the last and has lacked for home.
She wanted home to be Meereen but at the end of ADWD, she decides Meereen is not her home, “not truly”. Her desire to take the throne and find a place in the world to belong, to reconnect with the remnants of her family, appear to be connected in this way.
Going for the throne to the exclusion of all else because she has struggled so much for it and needs it for her struggles to be meaningful… I don’t think that is quite complex enough a motivation or a motive very true to GRRM, especially for the culmination of Dany’s arc and GRRM’s insistence on “the human heart in conflict with itself”. Dany’s a main character and I don’t think GRRM is going to take that struggle away from one of his mains, especially when it comes to her final decisions. Dany waging war on a city and massacring it only for the throne, failing to struggle with any decision, because she gave all of this up for the throne, because she struggled for the throne takes the element of “human heart in conflict with itself” away, I think.
Finding love, hope for family, and peace in a non-Iron Throne way vs. her desire for the throne and believing that will give her what she needs or is required for her to be what she feels she needs to be is an example of a conflict she might face (if this is a choice she indeed faces). In other words, what she has vs. what she feels she needs to have to achieve completeness or her sense of destiny (what she feels she must do). You’re right in that she has made struggles and sacrifices, many of them for the throne, and that’s something that would make this choice for Dany particularly difficult — especially since (as Tiago notes) destiny seems to play a part in Dany’s desire for the throne.
Well, if all difficult choice is taken away from her and she’s no longer having to decide or give anything up to pursue another goal and feeling the impact of that, I think this does flatten her character and motivation. Massacring a city in pursuit of a throne because of all she’s been through feels like she’d doing it only for entitlement and power.
This was a question posed by Jon, who doesn’t feel it was right because of his personal feeling for Dany. And I think this is something that is very true to the books because many times, there is no clear right or wrong in a situation, there’s that room for ambiguity — something GRRM seems to want to explore (particularly per the quote above).
Nobody having any doubts as to whether Dany has to die feels a bit too black and white for GRRM. GRRM seems to want to explore that murky territory, questioning what is right and what is wrong and what the consequences are of each action. Maybe Dany will be required to die for the sake of a better world — but it doesn’t mean Jon will feel it’s a doubtlessly correct action because Jon is a person with human feelings and human connection. It was right to defend the Wall against the wildlings — but the wildlings were people Jon came to know and he loved one of them. He knew why they were trying to get past the Wall, making that situation quite a bit more difficult in terms of right and wrong. This is the ambiguity GRRM seems to want to inject into these situations.
Depends on how King’s Landing goes down in the books. Even in this scenario, I don’t think GRRM would be saying Dany should be excused for mass murder but would be examining the consequences of regicide in-universe and the personal toll it takes on characters — especially if she’s not taken out by a stranger but by somebody who has personal feeling for her and must live with that for the rest of their life.
Congratulations #300! 🙂