“Bend the knee…or refuse and die”
The official synopsis…
Apparently there isn’t one. Lol.
“Eastwatch” is directed by Matt Shakman.
Check out the official photos here! We’ve added even more episode 5 photos just today.
Geoffery: Crikey, Dany really has got a bee in her bonnet when it comes to people bending the knee! After last week’s fiery finale I’m really excited to see what director Shakman will bring to his second episode.
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At least we’ll get the “Only 2 episodes left promo after this one.
Dracharys!
Fire and fury! The likes of which Westeros has never seen before!
BOOYAH!
Give your cousin a kiss Jon!
Good blood always wins
Really interested to see what happens with Jaime and Bronn, as they aren’t in the trailer. Surely they can’t have just escaped. And what will Theon be doing???
No way they could have escaped. I’ll be extremely disappointed in Benioff and Weiss if they did.
I won’t be disappointed if the pair escaped but I will be surprised. Prior to the battle I thought the show was setting up Bronn’s imminent change of allegiance.
Of course they’ll just escape, either immediately or Tyrion will let Jaime go very quickly there’s only three episodes left this season they don’t have time for Jaime to be a captive for ages again. Bronn might stay with Tyrion though and bend the knee. He’s always been good at seeing which way the wind blows.
Cousin? You want him to kiss Sansa or Arya?
Jack Bauer 24,
Ugh. Now that u say that I’m feeling the short season for the first time since they announced it.
Perhaps the lack of synopsis is a good sign? Lots of exciting things? Like Arya killing Littlefinger?
I’ve personally felt like we have been able to glean less from the photos this year and I’m curious why that is. Because there are less places for characters to be?
Also, damn those hackers. I hate that they are trying to demand a ransom. It annoys me far more than the idea that they would hack in because they are interested in the show. They need to get busted.
Tamwell Sarly,
Drogon.
So Drogon is alive and roaring! Good boy…
If Jaime and Bronn were captured I don’t see Dany letting Jaime go. Tyrion might, but I think it would cost him his life. And that would suck. He hasn’t had a chance to shine this season.
Here is the synopsis I see on my TV:
Demon Monkey,
I don’t think she would let him go either, he’d be leverage. That is, he’d be leverage to the extent Cersei cares about him at this point in the story.
Ah…I suggest Jon use some breath mints first then.
Jack Bauer 24,
Why? Things like this have always happened.
Do people forget that Davos was the only one in The Battle of Blackwater to conveniently avoid being incinerated by the wildfire, and conveniently washed up on a remote island.
If D&D had done this instead of GRRM, there would be long rants everywhere, and its even less believable.
What if Dany did let him go after Tyrion and Dany convince him, finally, that Cersei is indeed a disease…and they release him to try to convince Cersei to step down? Highly unlikely, but possible I suppose.
Either that or that river has a super strong current and it pushes him way down stream to safety.
HBO offered the hackers $250,000 lol
So it’s all going down at Eastwatch Sunday. I wonder if Dany is going to fly Jon up there so we will get all the epic beyond the wall stuff from the trailer. How long is the episode?
Yeah the same current that is so super strong that it was literally not moving Jaime at all and he was sinking straight down to the bottom.
59 minutes I believe.
Get those ravens ready ’cause Sam and Gilly gonna read some heavy, mind-blowin’ truth bombs! Go S & G! Bookworms rule!
Tamwell Sarly,
“What if Dany did let him go after Tyrion and Dany convince him, finally, that Cersei is indeed a disease…and they release him to try to convince Cersei to step down?”
I thought of this possibility too. It would put back into play the
Truly, with only three episodes left, it’s hard to imagine the show has time for any of the possibilities.
Where’s Ghost?
Hahhahahaha
Gilly,my baby,I love her.Shireen would be proud.
I don’t think Dany will convince Jaime to kill Cercei. It would have to be Cercei herself, thru her actions.
It occurs to me that the NK cannot hit Eastwatch before Jon is there. Not unless he cannot get across right away a la Mance. So I think Jon, the BwB and the wildlings converge in this episode.
Take it Dogon isn’t hurt since the preview shows her on top Drogon back at DS
Episode 5 is only 59 minutes. So maybe the fight for Eastwatch starts in episode 6. But why call it Wastwatch then? Will it be about the push to go there and the dynamic between all the characters (crows and free folk/nights watch and wildlings)?
Who?
Why can’t he get there without Jon being there? They can’t cross the Wall anyway
I think episode 6 is around 59 minutes too so why can’t it happen this episode?
Jack Bauer 24,
I think the battle at Eastwatch has to end up as a defeat or at least a standoff involving the loss of a lot of Northern / Night’s Watch lives. That would help propel the Dany/Jon alliance forward. It would be extra cool if Dany would fly Jon there on a dragon, but then Davos couldn’t go and Dany couldn’t deal with the aftermath of the Field of Fire. (Sorry, I refuse to call it the Loot Train Battle. Too lame.) Jon and Davos have to sail / teleport back together.
Any guesses as to the episode in which we’ll see the first kiss? This season?
*Lil Sam lifts Heartsbane over his head and it spontaneously ignites*
^Prince That Was Promised
Jack Bauer 24,
E6 is more than 70 minutes long. And E7 more than 80 minutes long.
So, the preview seems like it could be setting Tyrion up to defect, right? His expressions, man. Not those of victory and pride in his queen.
And is Drogon going to eat Jon?!!!
Kelly,
Yeah, I’m wondering if Tyrion lets them go. In the preview, we see Jon, Davos, Varys, and Dany sitting at the table, but . . . no Tyrion. I wonder what he’s up to . . . . ?
Or, if he’s not letting Jaime and Bronn go, then I hope he’s off somewhere designing a dragon saddle. We know he’s good at designing saddles (like the special one he did for Bran)!
I’m not a hydrologist, but I believe currents can vary at different water levels although, in this case, probably not enough to make a difference.
As an alternative, I’ll propose this: perhaps some children of the forest evolved by aquatically adapting to marine living and will swim out to save and carry Jaime to safety! Yeah? Problem solved.
I know, that was my biggest fear! Now I can watch in peace.
Ginevra,
3 betrayals…last one for love. Doesn’t have to be love for Dany right? Maybe Tyrion’s love for Jaime?
They’re 70 and 80 exactly. Not more.
Why can’t they cross the Wall? They were able to get into the 3ER/Children’s cave tree after Bran received the NK mark. If Bran still has that mark and went through the Wall to get back home, it’s conceivable the magic of the wall no longer works. You’d think Benjen would’ve know that, but maybe he didn’t put 2 and 2 together.
Jack Bauer 24,
They are 71 and 81.
I just checked the HBO schedule and it says 5 is 59, 6 is 60, and 7 is 80.
I’ve convinced myself that the big finale of season 8 will take place in Winterfell. Since there are so few episodes left, that means the White Walkers have to start making their way south soon, maybe passing through the Umbers’ land (didn’t the last lord say they’re the first ones to get hit?). So they have to at least START moving this season, right? (When the White Walkers make it to Winterfell, that’s right when Cersei’s Golden Army will get there, and it will be an all-out melee. That’s my prediction, anyway).
Not one. Not two. But three wolves on the map!!! Whom do they represent?
https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/IMG_20170811_153455.jpg
Chuck,
Ooo!
I thought Tyrion’s striped doublet (Is that what the jacket is called?) was in the far right bottom corner of the screen at the table. We can see the striped jacket at 12 seconds and the table at 20 seconds, with someone wearing a similar colored and striped jacket.
Belacel,
That’s the same synopsis I saw in IMDb- is it phony?
Nonetheless I’m still hyped to see what Shakman did with it.
Cersei’s Brain,
Not to my knowledge. It is the one given by my cable provider, in Canada.
Cersei’s Brain,
I’m pretty sure that isn’t legit. It doesn’t follow the GoT pattern or style of synopses remotely. It reads like someone read the leaks and then tried to write their own description.
And the cable provider probably picked it up from IMDB.
Jack Bauer 24,
The 6th episode is going to be 71 minutes.
https://watchersonthewall.com/game-thrones-season-7-running-times-revealed-record-length-season-finale-included/
Sue the Fury,
Do they really do that?
Ginevra,
There are actually four wolves in the picture. Three at the wall and one in the area of Winterfell. This could just be representative of four important strongholds in the coming war(Shadow Tower, Castle Black, Eastwatch, and Winterfell). Or it may represent something concrete. I don’t know what that is though.
Ginevra,
I paused at the 20 second mark, and you’re right, I think that’s him sitting on Dany’s right! So just forget everything that I said!
Alan the Tall,
Usually a provider would get their updates the same place we would- direct from HBO offices. But HBO didn’t release anything this time. So it’s quite possible that the person updating the schedule went searching for the episode description and thought they’d found the legitimate one. Cable providers do far more stupid things on a daily basis.
But this description doesn’t resemble any GOT episode description I’ve ever seen, the way it’s written.
That may be a moot point. Take a look at the opening diorama during the S7 credits. When they show the Wall, this season they have changed the Eastwatch area to be surrounded by ice (white instead of blue)…possibly representing winter. A question that many have been asking related to this change is why can’t the WW army simply walk around Eastwatch on the ice?
You can say why but without give spoilers?
It seems strange that Wall castles would be represented by direwolves, but stranger things have happened. Perhaps the Wildlings manning them are under Jon’s rule, and that’s why? I’d love for the wolves at the Wall to represent Jon and a couple of other Starks, but I’m afraid that’s wishful thinking on my part.
João Victor,
I can’t give any spoilers on this site, I’ll still give you a word
Some are already whining about it, wait until they see this one…
Was watchers on the wall around for season 1?
Chuck,
WotW was founded just after season 4 ended. Before that, the site founders all wrote for WiC.
I can’t wait to see Matt use his magic for this episode. He was amazing on the last episode.
Looking forward on seeing Jon and Danny discussed more about their ideas.
I hope we see Jorah soon
Jack Bauer 24,
Episode 6 is longer. It could happen in 5 of course. I might just theorizing.
HelloThere,
Yeah this is all a fair point
Part of me wonders if there’s a drowned god aspect to Davos storyline though
The image shot of Jaimie was good thenatically for where he was at
Also if we consider drowned god there’s an argument he may rise “stronger” etc in some way but he kinda did with Brienne..
I am wondering if Bronn switces sides though
Something tells me someone up on HBO messed up on the tittles. For a while “Blood Of The Dragon” was surfacing then it was changed to “Eastwatch” but I don’t see any Easwatch on these pics. I guess we’ll find out soon
r-hard,
Aunt*…
Sue the Fury,
Cool, thanks.
Are you suggesting this episode isn’t titled Eastwatch?
Interesting no Jaime or Bronn in trailer, but better that they hold them out more that I think – let whatever happens be a surprise. For sure they are alive, else they would have let Jaime get roasted last ep. Cold open of Bronn giving Jaime mouth to mouth? lol
“I think I deserve a castle now. Also another bag of gold, lost the first one.”
Been waiting over 15 years to see Jon meet a dragon, I still remember discussing the blue flower on a wall of ice all those years ago with friends and over time all coming to the same conclusion.
Can’t wait.
My guess is Stark Army split into three battalions each with a commander. Each defending a side left, middle and right when White Walkers breach the wall.
In some way it’s scary looking at that pic because the attention is no longer facing the realm.
The long night is closer than ever
Where would Tyrion defect to? Who would take him? Certainly not Cersei. Where can he go? Poor guy. At this point it would probably be better for Team Daenerys if Tyrion was to actually defect, since his tactics have been so poor.
You could be right. For some reason, I always assumed that the big battle with the WWs would happen on the banks of the Trident. That the WWs and their army would venture much further south than Winterfell, before they were stopped.
I was just remarking on the pictures thread about how inordinately excited I was to see those pictures.
Ginevra,
There’s actually 4 wolves on the map, and my guess is that the top 3 ones represent Eastwatch, Castle Black, and Winterfell. The 4th one near the edge of the picture and standing next to what seems to be a dragon piece I assume represents Jon.
You think Bran would know that. Being the 3-eyed raven and all.
The show isnt happening in real time. Its not hard to understand.
He did land when the arrow hit , he almost throwed Dany off and Dany couldn´t rub the arrow , so to say that hes not wounded would not be that true my friend .
Looks like he flys back to D’S. Can’t be that hurt.
Demon Monkey,
This is interesting but I may have an answer. The first thing Benjen did when he found Bran was to give the rabbit’s blood. I know in the books, blood is mainly used to enhance his abilities but drinking that blood may negated the effects of the NK’s touch.
If not? why did he land when the arrow hit ? That shows that the arrow hurted Drogon .
Momentarily hurt. If it was severe, he wouldn’t be flying Dany back to DS.
I’m worried the arrow could have been poisoned. He could eventually die from it.
Ask B&W !! Probably haunting (well he is called Ghost) either at Castle Black or maybe Winterfell 🙂
Damn.. got headache reading these guys debating whether the last 2 episode is 70,80 or 71,81 minutes.. come on..
@JackBauer24
Can I remind you that you’re watching a fantasy show. Try not to be negative, i’m sure you’ll enjoy it more.
He wouldn´t land either if the arrow didn´t hurt at the hit my friend.
It’s possible.
However, I’ve always thought that the mark helped the NK overcome the magic between them – and I mean the magic barrier that was between them at the time. But it won’t destroy any further magic barriers, like the Wall, so if Bran manages to to go through the Wall, the Wall’s magic stays intact. (unless he is again caught by the NK while warging)
He was wounded. As far as we can see from the trailer, he is able to fly and does not seem any the worse for wear. It was likely a flesh wound that, while painful enough to cause him to land at the time, has avoided any major muscles and has healed quickly.
King Podrick,
Episode 1 was called Dragonstone and it only appeared for 3 minutes at the end of the episode so….
Sue the Fury,
Yeah, I agree, it’s not the usual synopsis style… A true synopsis would read something like “Daenarys starts playing. Cersei counts money. Jon takes a decision.”
Of all the episodes this season, this is the one I that I was the most worried about. It just seems like the show crammed way too much plot and talky exposition into one episode for it to be palatable. I hope that it comes off better in execution than it does on paper.
SnowWolf,
Omg he was hurt but it’s not something permanent … like if some1 got stabbed in the shoulder it would heal as compared to some1 getting stabbed in the heart that’s the difference
It wasn’t permanent damage but yes he was hurt and it will heal … clearly not poisoned unless Qyburn dipped those bolt heads in the long farewell (poison used on Myrcelle and Tyene that could take days weeks or months to take affect)
Regarding Jaime: Pretty clearly Tyrion’s methods in Meereen were setup for his methods now. So Dany IMO will let Jaime go, with Tyrion’s convincing, so that he can go bring Dany’s terms to Cersei just as he did with the Masters in Slaver’s Bay. Jaime is the only character who can be an envoy after all. Jaime’s confused eroding loyalty is a major source of tension for the whole season and that doesn’t end this week.
Meanwhile Bronn will switch sides eventually even if that doesn’t happen in this episode. But if it does happen this episode then an interesting dynamic has been set up between him and Jaime because he just saved Jaime’s life and Jaime knows it.
Arya has been set up now to have a role involving the defense of Winterfell. “You need better guards”. Captain of the guard would be my guess. And, glare she gave him notwithstanding, Arya will not kill Littlefinger. That is Sansa’s kill to make.
Sansa is going to start making more obvious (to us) moves, related to Littlefinger and Cersei and how she is going to play the great game. I very much doubt that Littlefinger will die until very end of the season or even next season. There would be no payoff yet. The storyline hasn’t developed. Sansa may even marry him before killing him in order to secure the Vale alliance.
Cersei has gold now but no food. What is she going to do about that?
Have they started starving at Casterly Rock? Curious what form their rescue/relief will take (and Yara’s).
And…Dany is going to threaten to roast Jon! I am ready for some Rhaegal bonding please!
Behind you!
I fully agree with you. Jaime is the only envoy who can bring Dany’s message to Cersei. By the way, he also has another message from Olenna (“Tell Cersei”), so he has to reach her anyway.
There is also the issue of his valyrian sword. A wise man once said: “Follow the valyrian swords”. Now Heartsbane and the catspaw dagger are already possesed by team Dany, Joffrey’s sword is the only one that needs to find its way to the wall. (Olenna’s remark about the sword was made to focus our attention to this sword). So, my guess is that both Jaime and Bronn bend the knee, Bronn gets to wield “Widow’s Wail”, Jaime is sent as an envoy to Cersei
I’m hoping to see more of my beloved Sandor and I’d love to have him reunite with Arya and especially with Sansa. I’m afraid he and the brotherhood will skip Winterfell and head straight to Eastwatch, though.
I want to see a Tyrion/Jaime/Bronn reunion. Jaime has to get back to Cersei because we need to see him turn against her eventually, but I don’t know why Jaime would turn on her if he doesn’t meet Tyrion first. Jaime should find out about the WW threat, too. (Wouldn’t it be great if we got a callback to the Mad King making Jaime choose between his father and his king, this time with Dany making Tyrion choose between Jaime and his queen?)
I’m thinking Varys will start doubting Dany at least a little bit. Varys and Dany simply don’t have compatible worldviews. I don’t see Varys rooting for someone who feels she has a right to the throne because of her blood, especially because atm it looks like Dany is just another entitled noble making Westerosi common folk suffer because of her war.
awol,
Great thoughts!
Not sure we watched the same battle, lots of Stannis’ men survived, Davos was not the only one.
However the convenient washing up on a remote island is a bit silly.
Not as silly as Jaime somehow not sinking and drowning due to his armor, though. They better have a really good explanation for how he made it, if indeed he did.
Black Viper,
Widow’s Wail is intriguing yes, though I am not sure I agree with you it will end up in Bronn’s hands. If Jon and Tyrion or Dany had ever discussed the importance of Valyrian steel for WW then I would definitely see them confiscating the sword from Jaime. But that was never discussed so I doubt that Jaime and the sword will part ways just yet.
My pet theory on the swords is that there is some symmetry that will take place, and just as Ice was used to kill Ned then reforged, Widow’s Wail will be used to kill a Lannister and then reforged. I think Jaime is going to die eventually by his own swor, which means it needs to stay with him for now.
They were initially announced as such, you’re right, but now it’s changed.
It says 70 and 80, which really means 69 minutes + 1 to 59 seconds, and 79 minutes + 1 to 59 seconds.
Because even if it’s 69 minutes and 1 second, that counts as 70 minutes on the HBO schedule.
Last episode for instance was listed as being 50 minutes, yet the version I watched was 49 minutes and 17 seconds. Including opening and closing credits.
Markus Stark,
I think that is pretty simple: he sheds his armour.
And so, symbolically, he also begins “shedding” the Lannister dead weight that is dragging him down.
HBO schedule changed.
They should have structured things differently and put some of the episode 5 content into Episode 4.
Because yeah, there is A LOT of ground to cover this week.
He didn’t seem conscious enough in the last shot of the episode to be shedding his armor. He was just sinking. Also, shedding his armor with one hand ? Yeah, seems tricky. Not impossible, but definitely tricky.
TY. 🙂 Glad you enjoyed.
I think it remains possible the brotherhood will stop at Winterfell this week. The Wall is a long way, and beyond Sansa and Arya a conversation with Bran would be interesting for them as well. So they stop for supplies? News? Some excuse will be found because there is too much drama in that meetup to miss.
Markus Stark,
I would need to rewatch. The way I remember it his eyes were wide open. It was just all slow motion so that made him look kind of stunned.
You have a point on the one hand thing, but he will find a way I think, given that he tends to find a way when his life is in immediate danger.
I really hope so.
Sansa’s Knight,
I am also worried about poisoned and barbed bolts. I feel we r going to lose a dragon this year. I’d hate for it to be Drogon. He is my favorite. Well, since he is usually featured he is prob everyone’s favorite.
awol,
I think it makes no sense to use Jaime as an envoy. He is a valuable prisioner. Bronn could be an envoy. And if Cercei shoots the messenger, that would strain Jaime’s loyalty.
I’m spitballing of course. I’m not sure this seems likely.
If hes not hurt that much , then why did he land when the arrow did hit? , he almost throwed Daenerys off also , do not say that is fatal but that it was nothing to Drogon , i wouldn´t say that . We saw what a wound did to Khal Drogo didn´t we ? and that was only a scratch to the arrow that hit Drogon . If now Drogon isn´t that hit that people think then like written why did the mighty dragon of Daenerys land when it was hit , wouldn´t he he only turned hes back to the hit my friend?
Figuring out who betrayed Dany is an exercise in Logic.
1. Jon and Davos were not even there when the plans were created. They could not have passed them on.
2. Missandei is her BFF and right hand person. She doesn’t need a translator any more but Missandei is by her side. Plus M is a true believer. And she would never get a better deal from Cersei.
3. Grey Worm was freed by Dany, is devoted to her and M. And he was going to be in the line of fire.
4. The Sand Snakes and Lady Olenna were out for vengeance. They wanted Cersei dead. No reason to betray.
5. Tyrion is totally devoted to her. And he knows Cersei hates him. And from all we’ve seen betrayal is not what he does.
6. Varys is the probable betrayer. But reasons are tricky. After all, he could have simply stayed with Cersei. I think he is loyal to the people. Dany started with allies from two major houses, the best cavalry on planet, the Unsullied and three dragons. If she won easily, she would have more power than the mad king. The great houses are in ruin. There would be no counterbalance to her at all. A quick win and the LAnnisters would essentially be Tyrion, who is devoted to Dany. The Starks are in the north, far away.
So if she were to be damaged, she would come out of the final battles with a more tenuous hold on power. And that could lead to more democracy, more stability.
And, of course, he does not know about what’s happening north of the wall.
If Daenerys would lose Drogon she yet owns Rhaegal , Viseron , though the loss of Drogon would rub Daenerys thoughts of how mighty they truly are , and i think that she not would be that confident as whe seen Daenerys.
SnowWolf,
He’s a dragon. A fictional creation. I think it’s wrong to assume he shares the same healing properties as humans. It’s not asserted in the show exactly what his biological properties consist of. Perhaps his internal temperature is such that it would cauterize a superficial wound from within. He was hurt in the fighting pit in Mereen, yet he flew away then also. We don’t know that he landed simply because he was hurt. Perhaps it was harder to fly with a giant arrow sticking out of him, which is why Dany would be attempting to take it out. I know that I wouldn’t want to walk around with a foreign object stuck in my shoulder. I’ve seen numerous movies & shows where someone gets hit with an arrow and it’s either removed or broken off, so the person can have better mobility. Expand your imagination to consider other possibilities, and you may feel better about the situation.
awol,
Maybe Tyrion could ride Rhaegal to rescue Yara. If he is going to prove his worth I think he better mount a dragon. (Please let’s not get into the gutter.)
Markus Stark,
Are we forgetting Bronn?
Bella’s Bell,
It’s a complete assumption as far as I can tell that the magic in the tree cave is the same as the magic of the wall. There’s no reason they need to be the same.
Jon Snow looks damn kingly standing on that cliff in his furs.
I feel like the showrumners just wanted to give Kit Harrington a nice beach vacay before he has to spend 2 more years in snow fighting battle after battle.
Jaime is only a valuable prisonner if Cersei is willing to concede something to get him back. I think Tyrion actually knows that she would not even if Jaime doesn’t.
But say you are right, and at first they take him prisonner. Her reaction then would be to shrug and basically say “oh well”. She is not as in to him as he is to her.
Bronn doesn’t make sense to me as an envoy because he is not loyal, and has zero reason to go back to her. Pretty much anyone except Jaime who is alive and survived that slaughter is going to be thinking “to hell with Cersei” and swearing allegiance to Dany and her dragon. So to me, Jaime is the ONLY envoy who makes sense, because he is the only one who would willingly go back to Cersei.
I didn´t write that he would do so either , the point is that when the arrow hit Drogon he did land , to me that is to assume that the Arrow hurted Drogon so much that he must land you could also see how he almost threw Dany off . Yes he was hurted in Meereen to , but not off a ballista shot but of a man who throwed hes spear , i don´t think a man could throw a spear as a ballista . Did not write that this wound would be fatal , my point is that this ballista arrow did truly hurt Drogon , because some people thinks that Daenerys dragons not is vulnurable , this shows that they are my friend . I also seen shows when people is hit by arrows , the thing is i think its about that the arrow hurts , thats why i think that Dany would like to rub that arrow because she saw that it hurted Drogon , i don´t think it was so much mobility , it was not like it hit some of the wings of Drogon . So maybe you must expand the thought of that Drogons wound truly hurted for the dragon of Daenerys.
No. Bronn may indeed save him, but I would hate that, narratively. Bronn should have died. To me, it would have been the perfect ending for him, after all he did in this episode.
I’m still hoping that somehow Bronn won’t make it out alive. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau did say that the last line of the script for the episode said “One of our main characters is about to die”.
Make of that what you will.
Sue the Fury,
Thanks Sue – trying to avoid spoilers but in this case you could surmise that made-up synopsis from the preview. Confusing
I’m extremely worried about this episode.
Rabelais,
I don’t really get this “there must be a traitor in Dany’s camp”. Tyrion’s plan wasn’t as clever as he thought it was. It’s not difficult for an experienced military commander, such as Jaime* and Randyll Tarly, to figure out that Dany would hit the two powerbases, KL and CR. Jaime knows Highgarden is more valuable than CR and copies/adapts Robb Stark’s strategy.
Furthermore, Euron captured Yara, Ellaria and Tyene. They would’ve been questioned, possibly quite sharply. Yara and Ellaria at least knew Dany’s/Tyrion’s plan, so it’s not without the realms of possibility that Cersei’s regime learned from them.
That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of Dany’s advisors begin to have doubts (seeing the full meaning of “fire and blood”, like Tyrion did… with his beloved brother in the thick of it…) and may, in the future, contemplate switching sides, especially if the northern ice zombie apocalypse becomes more than just a fairytale and Jon is proved right. Let’s wait and see.
*) Jaime wasn’t an experienced military commander in S1. He fucked up and got captured by Robb Stark. But, as he told Olenna in the previous episode, he’s learned from his mistakes. (Well, some of them. His biggest mistake is, of course, loving and staying loyal to Cersei. Olenna pointed out as much.)
I don’t mind what happens this week, as along as Danys and Jon get together. Am offically bored of the other half yelling ‘ Go on Jon give her one from me’ every time they share a scene together.
Definitely not a good way to excite people heading into the final 2 episodes of the season
Dear Jack,
You’re extremely worried about every episode, every season, no promo pictures of various characters, no episode titles, no premiere hype, on and on. You’re worried about everything. Just try to relax and enjoy the ride. You do enjoy every episode as it comes along, don’t you? Why else would you be here all the time, on a fansite of a TV show you obviously like very much. Just concentrate on that. It’s a great TV show, and you’re priviledged to be watching it as it unfolds. You can’t control it but after all is said and done, it was a wonderful ride. OK, so maybe not answered all your minutiae questions, but use your imagination! Create a headcanon you like! Unless directly contradicted by GRRM or D&D, your guess = headcanon is just as good as anybody else’s.
I’m sorry you’re getting some flak for your anxiety, which often comes across as nitpicking and general negativity, even trolling, from some posters here. Keep watching, keep commenting. Just try not to worry so much. It is, after all, just a TV show, and all will be well.
OK, now I have something to worry about. A near apocalyptic dark cloud is rolling across the sky towards me, we’ll soon get a thunderstorm. I’ve been hearing the rumbles for about an hour now. We’ll get absolutely pissing down rain. Warning for freak high wind gusts as well. I’m not worried, I’ll unplug my electrical equipment just to be on the safe side, and then just enjoy watching the spectacle. … A bit like just enjoying watching GoT even if you don’t know what will happen… 🙂
Markus Stark,
I don’t agree that Bronn should have died just yet.
His value as a character is in his complete lack of loyalty to anything but reward. His arc is not a hero arc. He is a supporting character not a main one, and his entire purpose is that he goes with whoever pays him.
The Lannisters have not paid this debt. Until they either pay up, or he switches sides in a way that influences profoundly the greater war, this character is going to still be around. A hero death makes no sense.
r-hard,
She’s his aunt. 🙂
HelloThere,
Good point. If they do “just get away” I’m sure as others stated it’ll be the work of Tyrion while Dany is occupied tending to Drogon.
talvikorppi,
Tyrion’s failed plan was a necessity. You can’t have Dany sweep Cersei off the throne without some drama in the show. It was also necessary for Dany to have the excuse to use her dragons without looking bad to the eyes of the average viewer.
this is what Sky atlantic has as the synopsis (UK)
seems legit to me
Your forgot Salander Saan (sorry not bothering to look up spelling), Lords Celtigar, and many more lords, and their men survived and even escaped, like Davos.
That’s a writer’s excuse. It isn’t good writing, however.
Tyrion’s plan failed, and it was a dumb plan to begin with, which makes Tyrion look incompetent. Tyrion should not be looking incompetent, especially after they already made his plans fail in Season 6.
But this is typical for the show. They don’t know how to have two main characters shine at the same time in the same storyline. They always end up tearing one down to prop up the other.
Trouble is, twice now they’ve decided to have Tyrion’s plans fail as an excuse for Dany going all fire and blood on people.
Instead of having Tyrion look like an incompetent strategist, they should be able to construct the story in a more organic and natural way. Unfortunately, their storytelling is the antithesis of “organic”.
Tyrion’s plan was ridiculously contrived to begin with, and it failed due to more story contrivances. All that just so that they could justify Dany unleashing the dragons.
It’s incredibly weak storytelling, and probably the weakest part of the season so far.
She doesn’t own Reagal and Viserion, or Drogon. Just like the Starks don’t own their magical pets, the direwolves (which have been given short shift in the show). Dragons are not slaves to be owned, a point Dany made in Astapor back in S3.
You need to bond with a dragon to ride and control it. So far, Dany only has some control over Drogon, the two others take Drogon’s lead, it seems, but cannot be controlled by Dany… The dragon has three heads… three dragons… three riders..?
OK, now a real life huge thinderstorm is getting here, gotta unplug everything!
Markus Stark,
Just because plans fail doesn’t mean they’re not good. Tyrion is thinking long term. He wants Danerys to take the throne with the support of the common people. Right now, the people of King’s Landing are terrified. A Targaren has invaded with an army of savages and three dragons. If Danerys had attacked King’s Landing with her dragons, the people would view her as the Mad King’s daughter. The only reason his plans failed was lack of knowledge. Euron and Cersei’s alliance came as a surprise, and Tyrion had no way of knowing that the gold mines at Casterly Rock had run dry. You’re confusing ignorance for stupidity.
Markus Stark,
Just because Tyrions plan didn’t work out it doesn’t mean he was looking foolish. It sounded legit to me. Obviously attacking Kings Landing with dragons is out of the question. Getting Casterly Rock is a start punch.
I mean how would you go about it realistically? You have Dorne and High Garden, two pieces Tyrion said they would use to surround Kings Landing. Can’t go North or Riverlands.
Jaime knew they would go for Casterly Rock for obvious reasons.
It’s possible, if Robb Stark outsmarted Tywin a few times anything is possible. It doesn’t mean Tywin was stupid. He underestimated his opponent. A key many fail even the strongest in war.
I’m sure I’m not alone in just hoping for an episode that doesn’t have the usual suspects on here scribbling away in their notebooks for the duration and on here ASAP complaining about the writing as normal for a week non-stop…
No, I’m not. Every aspect of their plan was unintelligent.
As you said yourself, the people are already upset about her Dothraki invasion. Therefore, the whole “let’s not besiege the capital with foreigners” argument is absurd. Does it really make it better if they simply attack the rest of the kingdom with foreigners ?
Is anyone gonna say “You know, I was really upset about her bringing Dothraki and Unsullied, but now that I know they’ll attack places other than the Red Keep, I don’t view her invasion as being foreign anymore” ?
No one is going to say “At least the siege of the capital was done by locals !!”.
Second, the whole idea that they want to avoid thousands of people dying in KL, and therefore are going to resort to starving the city out, is ridiculous.
If you besiege the city and starve them out, thousands will die. So that whole reasoning given in Episode 2 is silly. You aren’t saving lives by going that route.
Plus, Dany clearly was able to use her dragons in a very precise way in Season 6. They burned a couple slaver ships, and that’s it. No reason she can’t use them with precision again. At this point, Drogon burns what she wants him to burn.
Furthermore, sailing all the way up to Dragonstone, just to send Yara and the Sand Snakes all the way back down to Dorne, just to bring them back up again is, once again, ridiculous.
Landing on Dragonstone, which produces no food according to Stannis in Season 4, with a massive army, is nonsensical.
They should have landed in Dorne or the Reach, where they have food and allies, consolidated the armies of those two Kingdoms, marched up to KL with the combined Dothraki, Unsullied, Dornish and Reacher armies, and sent Yara to besiege the capital by sea.
As for Casterly Rock, whether they have gold or not, sending your most skilled fighters there is a waste. Just take the Iron Throne first. The Rock is of very little value strategically given that Dany’s enemies are in King’s Landing.
Having a presence on the mainland is crucial. If her armies had been in Dorne and the Reach from the beginning, and simply marched North from there, Jaime would not have been able to take Highgarden, and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes would not have been captured.
By staying on a barren island, Dany has been at a terrible disadvantage, and has allowed the Lannister army to move freely across the Reach. Now she’s finally taken them out, but she’s burnt all the food.
Everything from A to Z has been disastrously thought out.
Markus Stark,
good comments Markus and I agree Tyrion’s plans were weak from the start… The way I am looking at the story now is… “Chaos is the Ladder” not just for Littlefinger but for the whole Game of Thrones story. I’ve read an interesting theory about the Tyrion’s battle plans disasters and I think D&D will put the pieces to together to make sense and continue to make Game of Thrones the best show ever!
God forbid anyone use critical thinking. Everyone should just accept the writing no matter what.
Markus Stark,
Surely you would prefer an episode you could consider cohesive, logically planned and thoroughly well written to one which you had reasonable complaints about?
I mean really?
It may have sounded legit to you, but it certainly wasn’t legit to me. And yes, I know you can be outsmarted without being dumb. Everyone understands that Tywin wasn’t dumb.
Good plans can fail. That’s what should have happened. It’s not what happened, however.
Tyrion’s plan was in fact dumb (in my opinion), and I was already saying that before it failed.
I’ll repost some of what I said to Young Dragon :
The whole idea that they want to avoid thousands of people dying in KL, and therefore are going to resort to starving the city out, is ridiculous.
If you besiege the city and starve them out, thousands will die. So that whole reasoning given in Episode 2 is silly. You aren’t saving lives by going that route.
Plus, Dany clearly was able to use her dragons in a very precise way in Season 6. They burned a couple slaver ships, and that’s it. No reason she can’t use them with precision again. At this point, Drogon burns what she wants him to burn.
So no, attacking KL was not out of the question, just use the dragons directly against the Lannister forces within the Red Keep. Don’t attack the city or the commoners.
If Cersei can blow up the Vatican and still be loved by the common people, I’m pretty sure Dany can use Drogon to get the Lannisters out of the Red Keep.
Furthermore, sailing all the way up to Dragonstone, just to send Yara and the Sand Snakes all the way back down to Dorne, just to bring them back up again is, once again, ridiculous.
Landing on Dragonstone, which produces no food according to Stannis in Season 4, with a massive army, is nonsensical.
They should have landed in Dorne or the Reach, where they have food and allies, consolidated the armies of those two Kingdoms, marched up to KL with the combined Dothraki, Unsullied, Dornish and Reacher armies, and sent Yara to besiege the capital by sea.
As for Casterly Rock, whether they have gold or not, sending your most skilled fighters there is a waste. Just take the Iron Throne first. The Rock is of very little value strategically given that Dany’s enemies are in King’s Landing.
Having a presence on the mainland is crucial. If her armies had been in Dorne and the Reach from the beginning, and simply marched North from there, Jaime would not have been able to take Highgarden, and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes would not have been captured.
By staying on a barren island, Dany has been at a terrible disadvantage, and has allowed the Lannister army to move freely across the Reach. Now she’s finally taken them out, but she’s burnt all the food.
Everything from A to Z has been disastrously thought out.
Drogon has been in the past been shown doing some dive fishing, the bolt pulled out, Dany mounts up and sends the bugger into a dive and up they come with Jamie held daintily by his collar ,or cape. ( Can’t really see it)
Yes, actually, I would prefer an episode that I considered cohesive, logically planned out, and thoroughly well written, to one which I took issue with.
Seems pretty normal.
I fail to see your point.
Markus Stark,
You clearly weren’t paying attention when Tyrion was stating his battle plans. They weren’t planning on using the Dothraki at all. The plan was always to use as little of the foreigners as possible and to fight primarily with Westerosi troops. Once Danerys lost her Westerosi allies, they had no choice.
No, thousands wouldn’t have died in the siege. Cersei either would have surrendered first or the soldiers and common people would have rioted and overthrown her. That’s how sieges work.
Drogon also burned a child to a crisp, so I don’t think it’s safe to say that Dany has complete control over them. All it takes is for one of the dragons to be overly enthusiastic and Dany’s reputation will be ruined. Besides, it’s all about appearances. Even if the dragons do minimal damage, rumors will spread that Dany brought “fire and blood” to King’s Landing.
They sailed from the east, not from the south, so this is a nonissue. Besides, the Reach lords’ betrayal wasn’t known yet, so they assumed they would have all the food they would need.
Taking the Rock would have meant taking the Lannister gold and is the symbol of their power. It would have put Cersei in a much weaker position and would have pressured her into surrendering.
Exactly. Rules of storytelling. No matter how much various fangirs and fanboys want to twist the story being told to fit their headcanons and their wishes… Hey, I’m a Jaime fangirl but I know there’s no way he’ll marry Brienne, have a dozen adorable warrior kids and die of old age in Brienne’s arms (a scenario NCW gave in some interviews after S6). This is GoT. How many rooted for Ned, how many rooted for Robb, eh?
We’ll all be heartbroken but there’ll be some hints of good things. Sigh.
I’m glad to hear it because honestly it sounds like you feel nothing but overwhelming negativity and expect each episode and the show to disappoint you even before it’s shown.
And part of ASOIAF is GRRM showing that smart people can sometimes make unaccountably poor decisions and having to deal with disastrous consequences just as in real life (as is a common theme in much dramatic work. People being correct and logical all the time doesn’t necessarily make great drama). Give the whole season a chance and perhaps some of your complaints may be addressed ( or not, in which case of course fair enough).
I really and genuinely hope you can enjoy episode 5 and find it in your soul to be completely positive even for just a few days!
Speaking of Valyrian swords, who do we think will wield them? Jamie only has one hand, although maybe he’s still an adequate enough fighter. But when the big fight comes, wouldn’t it make more sense to give the sword to a better fighter? And the same goes for Sam’s sword. So who are the fighters who would make the most sense (and will they still be alive by then): the Hound? Greyworm? Tormund? Edd? Jorah? Any other candidates? Will all of Pod’s training eventually pay off of Brienne falls and he picks up her sword?
SnowWolf,
Just fyi, ‘hurt’ is an irregular verb that doesn’t require the ed. 🙂
Markus Stark,
I do agree that Tyrion’s pla was stupid for the beginning, but it’s worth nothig that basically it was the same plan the US to apply in Syria and almost identical to how the so called Ukrainian anti-therorist operation against the Russian invasion went on in August 2014. So, it’s not the problem of a bad writing – it’s a problem of Western humanitarian values which makes all the superpowers to lose to all sorts of chuligans. And there is no answer how to resolve this problem so far. So, it’s kind of good that GoT adresses this problem at least in artificial world and now we see that striking KL will maximal force would have probably taken less lives than the mess Dany got into following Tyrion’s plan. And I hope that some of the real world planners and their critics wil take a note of that too.
hmm, Maybe Jorah will show up at Dragonstone with Heartsbane? Sam knows his skills at swordfighting are not great..
If Jaime knew they would go for CR, why didn’t Tyrion think for one second that Jaime might know that? Did he underestimate Jaime?
I’m just here for the ride. This is going to be fast paced. I’m sure there will be some stuff that logistically makes little sense. But Jon is going to interact with a dragon and Sam is going to find some very important info in those old scrolls. So get hype!
And if IMDb is to be believed:
Jack Bauer 24,
Tyrion knew that the Lannisters would be ready for them. He said as much. But he falsely believed that Casterley Rock was still valuable and didn’t know that the gold mines had run dry.
Jack Bauer 24,
Because Tywin only told Cersei the mines had run dry
tyrion wouldn’t know just because he was master of coin, because all he would see would be the crowns debts
Tyrion owes Jaime his life – what if Dany takes him prisoner but Tyrion sets him free? A neat role reversal. And a betrayal of Dany too.
Yes. Yes he did. As directly stated in the 4th episode. “If I have underestimated our opponents…”.
Sorry , i saw that now 😉
i dont think Tyrian’s CR plan was a bad one. He had a secret way in, so they took the castle easy. yes jamie called it but he would have still expected for it to be much costlier for them to take it than it was.
Its not like tyrion had a secret way in to any other castle. The rock is very big and never been taken until then, its a good and easy start.
Things I’m hoping for most this episode… and given that this ep was supposed to be a “crowd pleaser” maybe at least some of this is right!?
JORAH DANY REUNION AHHhhhh (I just rewatched their last departure which was suuuuper emotional – am hoping for more of the same)
Tyrion / Jaime Reunion!!! Ready to be heartbroken if an unlikely escape happens… ;_;
More Dany – Jon bonding… Who the hell said Dany was going to burn Jon this episode above!?! People are still saying this after last episode?! smh…
Beric/Hound getting to Eastwatch!
I am always hoping for anyone except Dany to interact in a positive way with a dragon… Not really expecting it though…
Worried about…
Tormund Giantsbae
The Hound and Jorah are the obvious choices of the ones you mention. Greyworm is trained only with a short sword, so far we always see him fighting with spear or a knife. Tormund is a real berserk, he’ll most likely make a good use of a sword if he has to, but it’s not his weapon of choice. Edd is a beloved but not so central character. Pod would really be a nice twist, but this will be a huge leap for him, from still being tragic in the last episode, to one of the legendary ( to be ) swordsmen of the realms. Still he can pick a fallen sword in the right moment and deliver his special blow a la Blackwater Bay.
Bronn is a strong candidate for the second Lannister sword, as he is connected to both brothers. And Dickon Tarly carrying his family sword will be nice, but first he must survive the recent events, then he has to stick around for the rest of the series. Won’t place a bet on those two.
Btw, the synopsis on IMDB was different when it first arrived. There was a line about Tyrion questioning queen’s actions and his own loyalty, but from the preview we know it’s coming. Still there is a big difference between having doubts and making a 180 degree turn. I only fear for him if he confronts Daenerys during a storm, she clearly reacts badly to unpleasant weather.
My point was that she with a loss of Drogon yet have Rhaegal & Viserion and if they follow Drogon , why didn´t we see them at the battle then ????
Can’t leave some of you alone for one morning, can I?
Be civil, or the lot of you will be on post-restriction for a week.
Tyrion kind of had a positive interaction with them.
Jack Bauer 24,
Tyrion did know. He said in one of the episodes that Jaime and Cersei will be expecting Dany to hit CR.
I haven’t read through all the comments here, but I have noticed a few people criticizing Tyrion’s plan. Firstly, Tyrion is a great politician, but not a military general. I believe this is where the return of Jorah Mormont will be beneficial. Who knows, maybe if they had him sooner he could have told someone how stupid it was to make Dragonstone the base of their operations.
Look at a map. Dragonstone is too far from Danny’s allies and way too close to her enemies. From what we’ve seen on screen, and from what we’ve learned from Stannis scenes, it also doesn’t provide much in the way of feeding an army, or lumber for building ships and weapons. Dorne would have made a lot more sense. They had to sail past there to begin with. Plus they wouldn’t have lost most of their fleet traveling between Dorne and Dragonstone.
Secondly, Casterly Rock was a flawed target because they had bad information. The blame for that falls directly on the shoulders of Danny’s so called Master of Spies. A lot of people have been talking about how useless Littlefinger has been this season. I would argue that Varys has been even more so. It was revealed that the Rock has been mined out in season 4, a fairly large oversight to be made by someone with Varys’ reputation. (It’s also a little hard to believe that Olenna Tyrell didn’t know about this either.) Varys also had no idea what the Ironborn were up to, or that Jon was King in the North. The creators have spent a good portion of the show establishing Varys as the first person to know the movements of the other houses. It’s a little weird to see him looking at his slippers after their strategies fail.
Everett,
I don’t understand Varys’ functions in this new court. Back in Meereen he did some Master of Spies moves. But his main purpose appears to be serving as Tyrion’s confidant, with the notable exception of forging an alliance with Dorne and The Reach, which was a diplomatic mission. Oh, and to be spooked by any red priestess coming by.
Agreed on Jorah being badly needed to introduce some sound mind in the military affairs.
TV Guide’s website is now reporting that same synopsis, perhaps erroneously as well.
I think Tyrion will tell Jamie that Cersei had an affair with cousin Lancel while Jaime was off fighting Robb etc., and that will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Jamie.
SnowWolf,
hee no problem, just channeling my inner Stannis. English is a crazy language and I am in awe of anyone learning it as a second one.
seenGhost?,
First he has to find it! Still amazed that Tarly Sr didn’t go on a hunting trip to retrieve that back.
I think in the final run, Jorah will wield the Tarly sword. The tracks have been laid down neatly; Sam took his family sword, Sam is now friends with Jorah and cured him, so it’s only natural that if they are fighting WWs, Sam will give Jorah the sword – Sam still feels he owes Jeor Mormont a huge debt. But I doubt that Jorah will show up at DS with Heartsbane, since we didn’t see him getting it from Sam before he left Oldtown.
Nah. Jamie is wearing a Qyburn inflatable flotation vest ™, and he and Bronn will just happen to surface behind the only bush not incinerated in the attack.
It’s cute to think that psycho Cersei would ever surrender. 😀 Surely, even people as non-informed as Varys and Tyrion have heard of the Sept explosion with wildfire. Tyrion, if he knows Big Sis at all, would know that a siege would never work; Cersei would rather burn it all down than surrender. She would never wait till the common people rose up in revolt.
Yes i agree with you there lol , im from Sweden so it can be wrong sometimes , though i try to write as correct as possible .
Rightful Queen,
Eastwatch is mentioned in the show and the books as a possible target for the dead army. I think in both cases, we’ve been set up for a military feint. The Night’s King will send a skeleton force (pun intended) to Eastwatch. After Jon takes the bait and possibly fights off the splinter force, they will get word that the Night’s King is actually attacking Castle Black. The wall will fall with little resistance.
They have used this tactic twice in the show. Can’t help but think we will see it again.
Kind of a side note, but does anyone notice the one stunt guy they have who kind of does this bizarre upwards wavy motion with his arms when set on fire? Kind of like he’s doing a zombie walk while doing the wave except with one arm at a time. LOL. Somehow I think if someone was set on fire that would not be the behavior. I’ve seen him do this in for so many battles though, it’s pretty funny.
Yeah, last season and I loved it. Was hoping for more last season, and now this season but I’m not really expecting it. I could be wrong but at this point it just seems like Rhaegal and Viserion are just going to be “backup dragons” in case something goes wrong with Drogon.
seenGhost?,
I’m just wondering why Jorah is still in the show tbh. What can he add to the plot as it stands right now, any ideas?
I think it has to be at least a standoff. I simply can’t believe D&D or GRRM would pass up the opportunity for the Wall to fall. What an epic visual! It can’t be so simple as the NK et. al. simply going around. And I can’t help but think that would be the most awesome way to end this season. That’s my dream.
I hope there isn’t a kiss, at least not this season. I’m a hopeless romantic but I don’t want GoT/ASOIAF to turn out to be a love story. Having these two hook up – if they hook up at all (and I hope they don’t) – before the very end distracts from the stories of all the other characters we love. It would suddenly become the Jon and Dany show.
1. He’s an excellent fighter.
2. He is a valuable advisor and strategically savvy.
3. He is educated in traditions and languages of various groups.
4. He has firsthand knowledge of everything that has gone on in regards to Dany since Episode 1.
5. He is now proof of curing the previously thought to be incurable.
6. He’s ridiculously good looking.
7. Dat voice tho.
Pigeon,
OK you won me over 🙂 He’s been such a soft spoken, lovesick dude I just hope he comes back a little more self serving actually. Not just to be at Dany’s beck and call. I mean, yeah he’ll probably be in her service but I would hope he can kick the idea of romance with her to the curb.
There’s also one VERY important reason why Jorah shouldn’t return: they got rid of his yellow shirt, and that’s something I can’t forget or forgive.
Markus Stark,
I don’t disagree with you, I was just stating the facts as they are. That is what the writers are going for.
They need drama and it’s hard to balance a war out when one side has 3 full grown dragons.
talvikorppi,
I was definitely hoping Cersei’s days this season ruling would be short. But my gut told me she’s not going out till at least episode 6 or 7. Her actress is way too good for anything else.
I do agree with Markus concerning how they went about it. No need to make my man Tyrion look like a fool! 🙂
But I don’t know how else to get the results they desired. Maybe the Dothraki go off and do a bunch of raping and stealing in the Reach and that’s what brings Tyrell bannerman over to the Lannisters? Or Euron sacks Sunspear so Dorne has sto stay home with their armies to play defense? No perfect answers though, those ideas could be picked apart too.
ygritte,
Once he sees Jon he’ll give up the romance idea LOL.
He’ll just want his family sword back.
Do you think Jon will keep that sword or will get his own at some point?
Longclaw is too closely associated with Jon at this point. It was a gift from Old Bear Jeor to him and Jorah will respect that. Here Sam and Heartsbane will come really handy, unfortunately this would mean poor Dickon_( “Ha-ha-ha” ) won’t survive the Lannister bbq.
If we are to criticize Tyrion’s plan we have to criticize all of his train of thought – which to me, was very logical and strategic:
Firstly, he said that Dany shouldn’t use foreign armies to invade Westeros, because that would definitely turn against her any Westerosi Lord – whom Tyrion wants to ally, as many of them as possible.
Secondly, landing to Dragonstone since she had allied the Lady of the Food area (Olenna), was the only logical place to land: it’s vacant, she has family ties with it and its safely away from the mainland but not too far from it either to use as war base.
Thirdly, why not use the dragons to take KL and instead use the starve KL strategy. Dany using the dragons would be something like dropping nukes on KL (Zero survivors and city diminished to ashes). And that while also there’s a long history about the Targ madness: Tyrion wants to avoid any connections to that.
What he does here, is advicing Dany to try and win the war fighting with the conventional means of war: any general would try to seize a city by cutting its supply line, until Cercei either surrenders or the people rebel against Cercei and surrender their city. The casualties would be far less than a Dragon attack which would also harm Dany’s ‘image’ therefore making her rulership very difficult. Tyrion wants to win this war, with the smallest casualties on either side, making as many allies in westeros as he can – if you want Westerosi allies, you don’t step on their toes.
Lastly, he uses the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock, believing that the majority of the Lannister troops will be there. So had these troops been there as they were supposed to, the Unsullied would have taken out the majority of Cercei’s troops and they’d have a new good westerosi castle to use as a new base of operation, slowly by steadily gaining ground – while Yara would take the Dornish army and move them to KL in order to begin the seize of KL.
It was a logical plan and it shows that Tyrion has his heart on the right place – he doesn’t wish for a bloodbath and ashes terror reign for Dany. That’s why he looks so sad seeing the destruction at the loot train attack: he may be thinking that they could have somehow avoided the casualties. His only ‘sin’ here may be that he’s too sympathetic and values life, in contrast to his sister, who doesn’t give a damn as long as she gets what she wants. But on the other hand, isn’t that why we love Tyrion in the first place and why we’ve come to like Jamie too? (we’ll love him too as soon as he finally leaves Cercei!)
Now why did it go wrong?
Firstly, no one saw Euron coming: Yara underestimated the threat of her uncle, and Dany/Tyrion of course could never know who he is or what Euron’s plans were. Yara, did a good strategic move, joining Dany before Euron, but she should have suspected that he would instead offer the same deal to Cercei and warn Tyrion/ Dany for the threat Euron really is. As a result their plan didn’t include the possibility of a sea threat, because they didn’t know, suspect, or expect what Euron was up to.
Secondly – and that’s the only hole/mistake in the plan – no one expected that Cercei would first try to take control of the supply line by taking Olenna’s castle and resources.
So if Tyrion made a mistake, it was that he didn’t secure the supply line immediately as soon as they landed on Dragonstone.
I suspect that he didn’t expect such a quick – and strategic- move from Cercei because knowing her bad character thought it was unlikely to happen:
a) so he ignored the fact that Cercei can ‘sell’ her rulership as good and stable – therefore gaining Westerosi Lords’ support – and
b) overlooks the fact that Jaimie is on Cercei’s side and he knows how to win wars; . He knew they would expect Lannister troops to be at Casterly Rock (to protect their ‘home’) but he was willing to sacrifice their castle in order to win a more valuable castle and resources, something that Tyrion would never expect from Jamie, knowing how tied Jamie felt to Casterly Rock.
But those mistakes were logical, even if we don’t like them. And the lack of information is logical too, considering that there aren’t any little birds at this time working for Dany team.
Whether one likes Tyrion or not, I think that he did what any good Westerosi general would do -without any help from an actual general no less (he’s a Hand, not a general). Yes the plan failed, but that wasn’t due stupidity, but rather due omissions – which were logical and inevitable.
That said, the plan had to fail:
a) it grounds Dany a bit which is good.
b) it levels the power between Dany/Cercei
c) it works as a keystone on the characters interaction/meetings and shifts of events that create new allies and dynamics
d)it creates the right environment for later decision making which is needed to serve the main story
To my view, the writing in the show is excellent. 🙂
And now I go back to my hype over new episode! Eastwatch is a very promising title – I can’t wait!!! 😀 😀 😀
SiriuslyStark,
“landing to Dragonstone since she had allied the Lady of the Food area (Olenna), was the only logical place to land: it’s vacant, she has family ties with it and its safely away from the mainland but not too far from it either to use as war base.”
You can find a map of Westeros online. Dragonstone was a horrible choice for a base especially since they landed there without having any northern allies. As it is Danny has cut herself off from her southern allies. Dragonstone doesn’t have enough food to support an army (see Stannis’ conversation with the iron bank). “The lady of the Food” would have to either cross the continent which would put the supply line in enemy territory, or she could send it to Dorne, from which point they would have to send it the rest of the way by boat. We’ve already seen that the waters between Dorne and Dragonstone are not safe.
“Firstly, no one saw Euron coming”
“But those mistakes were logical, even if we don’t like them. And the lack of information is logical too, considering that there aren’t any little birds at this time working for Dany team.”
“Yes the plan failed, but that wasn’t due stupidity, but rather due omissions – which were logical and inevitable.”
Aren’t these Varys’ areas of expertise? His title is the Master of Whispers. If Danny should be pissed at anyone, it’s the guy that’s been as pointless as he is dickless. The only thing Varys has done this year is explain his actions under threat of incineration and get cowed whenever he tries to say something clever.
Bella’s Bell,
Each figure represents a certain number of fighting men. That’s how I understand it. The castles are already on the map. They use the figures to track troop movements.
Please let’s not go there. Not only is this not the place to debate politics, but also some people are not in the mood to listen how supporting headchoppers, Pinochet death squads, and orchestrating one coup after another is done in the name of humanitarian values and not, say, because of resources and establishing uncontested global supremacy.
SnowWolf,
You’re repeating yourself. Your questions have been explained already.
Black Viper,
Jaime is more valuable as a hostage than an envoy (see Rob Stark). It’s typically not a good idea to let your hostages return to their families (see Rob Stark). Any messages Danny wanted to send to Cersei were sent in this last episode (see barbecued Lannisters).
I am aware of the Westeros map – though I would strongly suggest against seeing it, such nitpicking definitely takes the joy out of the show 🙂
Now let’s talk maps:
Dragonstone is vacant. Dragonstone is near Kings Landing which is the place she wants to conquer, but with enough diastance from it to be safe and its location prevents a large terrestrial attack. Dragonstone is about the same distance from Highgarden as KL is ,with the difference that Lady Olenna had sided Dany so she would willingly send the food to Dany.
We tend to forget that they DIDN’T KNOW that he sea roads would be unsafe as Euron joined the game. It’s like acussing someone for instance that the super market round the corner suddenly closed and they can’t buy what they want because the guy who owns it had a sudden accident and had to close it without prior warning. How on Earth could they have known when they made their shopping list? So, when they made their plan, Euron was out of the picture; and Euron had this exact vantage of the element of suprise which is why he was succesful in the first place.
To a more practical matter. If not Dragonstone then where? Should she go straight to KL and turn it to ashes becoming the Queen of Terror and making all the people in Westeros hate her?
Should she land an army of foreigners in the middle of westeros and be encircled by enemies? Attack a Lord’s castle to seize it as a base and make more enemies to be encircled by?
War tactics would wisely advise against landing in the middle of an enemy terrestrial area. And the politicians would advise against seizing a castle by force, if there is a chance to win it with diplomacy. Tyrion mentioned many times that his goal is to make as many allies as he can before going to seize KL. Dragonstone is safe enough to wait while diplomacy works and near enough to mainland to take action if needed.
As for Varys, he stopped being the Master of Whispers for a long time now. His little birds are working for Cercei and he doesn’t have any allies in KL or in the royal court (not that he ever had), after he left as he did. So, at this time he knows what everybody else knows and finds out the rest with others.
He didn’t go to Dany as master of whispers of KL , but as an advisor: I wouldn’t call a man who was brutally mutilated as a child, and not only survived in the street by himself but managed to rise himself in positions of power, dickless. And he has valuable advise to give to Dany, more important than any whisper, because he sprung through the plain, common people and he’s seen the terrors that the common people have been subjected to by rulers.
In this season, so far – I haven’t seen the 5th ep yet – Varys is struggling to find his new place in the game. Now, I’m not saying I fully trust him – I don’t. But I would never underestimate him – and if Dany is smart, she won’t either.
Being pissed about lack of information, would be natural, for anyone in Dany’s place. But you really can’t hold someone responsible for not having a vivid imagination – and in the case of Euron’s sudden appearence, it would have to be a matter of imagination. As mentioned in my previous post, I believe that Tyrion’s mistake was to a) underestimate his sister’s abilities to unite S.Lords against Dany b) that he didn’t secure his supply line as soon as they landed to Dragonstone. But both omissions, to my view, are understandable.
That said, we can agree to disagree: I respect different views, as I’d like to think the different views respect mine 🙂