Tonight’s new episode of Game of Thrones blew us all away, and with the fire-powered action of “The Spoils of War,” the season is officially halfway over! I know- too soon, too soon. But before we melt-down over the short season all over again, let’s dive into an episode short on running time but long on high points. Between the Stark reunions, Daenerys finally unleashing the weapon she’s been holding back, and the Lannisters’ most recent victory turning to ash in their mouths (quite literally), we’re still catching our breath.
Spoiler Note: This is our book reader’s recap, intended for those who have read the A Song of Ice and Fire series. The post and the comments section may contain spoilers from the novels, whether or not that material has appeared on the show yet. Because no, we are not all Unsullied now. If you have not read the books yet, we encourage you to check out our non-book-reader recap, by Oz of Thrones!
You didn’t think it was going to be that easy, did you?
That’s how we could sum it up for quite a few characters tonight: for the Stark siblings whose happy reunions turn to uneasy adjustment with people who have become strangers, and for golden-haired lions who declared victory before the cash was in the bank.
The Lannisters’ looting of Highgarden has been incredibly successful, but at what cost? Olenna Tyrell’s final barbed words have left a mark on Jaime, who is brooding in a way that would make Jon Snow proud. Bronn could care less- he’s still waiting for this Lannister to pay his damn debt already, beyond the measly bag of coins he’s gotten so far.
In King’s Landing, the Iron Banker Tycho Nestoris is thrilled with the speedy repayment of the bank’s loan, as Cersei lets him know that the gold is on its way. In fact, he’s so thrilled he’s interested in investing further in her enterprises. Cersei’s interested, as she needs to build up her armies and navies and what’s that? She’s made overtures to the Golden Company- and the book-reading crowd goes wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiild. (In ASOIAF, the Golden Company is a renowned mercenary company founded by a Targaryen bastard. The company comes into play in the later novels, in storyline threads that have been mostly discarded or allotted to other characters in the show. Will the Golden Company’s Targaryen heritage play a role here? We’ll have to wait and see.)
All these new plans will go forward “as soon as the gold arrives” which tells you it will never arrive, because welcome to television. Hey, I don’t make the rules.
At Winterfell, Littlefinger is making his next move by playing up to the potential new lord, Bran Stark. The Three-Eyed Raven is here though, and not swayed by Baelish’s manipulations, as the older man presents the boy with the Valyrian steel dagger that once nearly killed him. A strange and very expensive gift, and as always Littlefinger’s motives are obscured…but not to Bran.
Baelish mentions chaos, and eerily, as though he’s remembering something he saw and heard, Bran says, “Chaos is a ladder.” (A callback to Littlefinger’s classic villain monologue from season 3’s “The Climb.”) Littlefinger is unnerved but saved by Meera’s arrival.
Bran’s coldness is even more apparent here. Meera has come to say goodbye, as she’s returning home to her family, to be with them when the danger arrives. And Bran lets her go with a weak ‘thank you.’ The losses of Jojen, Hodor, even his direwolf Summer, seem to mean nothing to him anymore. They’re not his memories or pain, and we’re left to wonder who this new character is. Will Bran become as monstrous as the things he fights?
The struggle to come home is real for another Stark in this episode, with Arya having to resort to stealth to even get in the front door. Once she’s there, returning as a completely different person to a home that’s not really home anymore, Arya reunites tentatively with Sansa, the sister who was always her polar opposite.
Sansa may have been the proper lady and Arya the athletic rebel, and they fought as sisters did, but they loved each other. In their reunion, they both admit to wanting Joffrey dead, and Arya confesses to having a list of people she wants to kill. It may seem desperately unhealthy, but to have Arya opening up that much, after years of keeping all her secrets and plans close, strikes me as a positive sign.
It’s not easy for the sisters though. Both have experienced far too much to express. How do you sum up a life, even an ordinary one? Throw in Faceless assassins and the-dog-ate-my-husband and it all becomes a bit much.
Luckily Bran joins the reunion to make it that much weirder, but somehow beautifully emotional.
Their brother informs Arya that he saw her at the Crossroads- and he knows about her list. He shows his sisters the Valyrian steel dagger, and Sansa wisely questions why Littlefinger would gift it to him, given its value. Bran presents it to Arya, which makes sense. She’s the sole fighting arm of the Starks, now, with Jon away.
The children walk through the courtyard together as a unit (Arya pushing Bran’s spiffy new wheelchair), as Brienne and Pod look on happily, thinking of Catelyn. As usual, from above, Littlefinger creeps.
On Dragonstone, it’s time to get productive. Dany and Missandei head down to the beach (as Miss discreetly implies that Sullied hanky-panky may have gone down; Dany is intrigued) where Jon is waiting to lead the ladies to the cave.
The promised dragonglass awaits them, sparkling across the walls, just waiting to be fashioned into arrowheads and blades. But wait, there’s more! Going deeper into the ancient cave, Jon has discovered traces of history on the walls- legacies of the Children of the Forest. The Children left their spiral shapes etched into the stone everywhere (with the shape’s meaning still a mystery), and also drew the shape of Man, an important clue. The Children’s art tells Jon and Dany that the Children once worked with Man to defeat the White Walkers. And perhaps they can get past their differences as well to fight this evil together.
But Daenerys insists Jon bend the knee. He’s still unwilling, so the impasse continues, only now there’s more sexual tension in close cave quarters. Oh yeah, they’re definitely going to have sex eventually. Everyone, get over the aunt-nephew thing. It’s happening.
Outside the cave, Tyrion and Varys bring the bad news- they’ve captured Casterly Rock. But she’s also lost all of her allies, so things are not going well for Daenerys. She takes out her ire on her Hand of the Queen, since Tyrion’s strategies aren’t working out so hot for her. She wants to head for the Red Keep ASAP and burn the motherfucking place to the ground, but Jon Snow talks her out of it by reminding her that everyone will hate her guts if she goes there.
In Winterfell, Arya has cleaned up and redressed in the fabulous uniform of the North, and I’m loving it. Joining Brienne and Pod in the courtyard, she challenges Brienne to a little training duel. At first Brienne holds back, but Arya’s Waterdancing swordplay and assorted fighting skills picked up over her time in the House of Black and White make her a formidable opponent. She and Brienne go toe-to-toe, hacking and stabbing at one another in a fantastic display of swordfighting and roughness.
From above, Sansa and Littlefinger watch. It’s clear Sansa is taken aback by how far her little sister has come. She’s returned home not only with a list of people she wants to kill, but the abilities to do it.
Back at Dragonstone, Davos has noticed the sexy tension between Jon and Dany and decides to go full Dad and make it awkward by pointing it out. Jon brushes it off; they don’t have time for that sort of thing. The khaleesi is on their minds still though. Speaking to Missandei and questioning her service to Daenerys, she explains how she came to be part of Team Dany. And explains most importantly why she’s still there- because they chose her for their queen, not because of her father.
Then Theon arrives back on the island to kill the friendly vibe.
Jon is shocked and angered to see the Greyjoy ward who was once his friend, before he betrayed the entire Stark family and destroyed Winterfell. Theon is clearly cowed but manages to ask after Sansa.
Sansa is the only reason Jon doesn’t kill Theon, as it turns out. Theon did help return her to them. But I don’t think Jon will be attending any Greyjoy beach clambakes anytime soon.
Anyhow, it’s while talking to Theon that Jon drops the bomb that ‘the queen’ isn’t there- she’s gone. Where did she go? You get three guesses, and they all involve fire and blood.
The Lannister march-o’-merch carries onward across the Seven Kingdoms, as they carry the Highgarden booty back to King’s Landing. Along the way, Jaime and Bronn chat with Randyll Tarly (still a dick) and his son Dickon (surprisingly not a dick, and troubled by having to kill Tyrell men). Everything is going just SUPER.
And then in the distance there’s a rumbling….the thud of hooves. The men scramble into formation, not know what’s coming, but it’s something. And the screaming comes, high-pitching terrifying war cries carrying over the field. Then we see them- the massive horde of Dothraki screamers, rolling across the field and coming for the Lannister forces.
Shit’s about to go down.
“We can hold them off,” Jaime Lannister insists.
Nah, bro.
That’s when the episode goes from lovely and well-paced to friggin awesome.
Daenerys unleashes Drogon, her dragon’s fire laying waste to the Lannister legions- and the caravans full of goods. For the first time, we get to see what a group of Dothraki screamers can really do, running down and tearing into the soldiers in a series of breathtaking moments.
The Lannisters are in serious trouble, and Jaime is scrambling. He sends Bronn off to handle the weapon they need for that dragon, before tangling with a Dothraki. It’s not going well for Jaime either, until Dickon Tarly saves his life.
Bronn is left fighting his way through the fiery mess of the battle toward what he needs, losing his horse and his precious bag of coins in the fray. Finally he reaches the wagon containing the prize- the massive ballista constructed by Qyburn, capable of firing huge bolts that can penetrate a dragon skull.
From a safe distance, Tyrion watches the battle- watches countless Lannisters bleed and burn. In the field, he spots his brother Jaime, who has a narrow miss with Drogon roasting more Lannisters.
The dragon finally comes close enough to Bronn for a shot. The sellsword misses but succeeds in royally pissing off Dany and her baby. He reloads, and doesn’t miss this time, with the bolt puncturing him but not fatally. Drogon falls nearly to the ground but manages to control his pain enough to land safely.
Daenerys hops off the dragon to pull the bolt from it, and while she’s distracted, Jaime sees his chance. The queen is unprotected, with her back turned, as she’s consumed with her child’s pain. On his horse, Jaime goes for a near-suicide run at Daenerys, spear in hand and almost makes it- until Drogon turns and opens his mouth for a blast of fire.
It would’ve been an ashy end for him, for sure- but instead Bronn knocks Jaime off his horse into the water, at the last possible second. The armor-clad Kingslayer slowly sinks into the depths. Will it be water that takes him instead?
This Week’s Thoughts (Not So Stray):
Next week on…: as soon as this week’s episode ended, HBO updated their website with the usual episode info- and the title of next week’s episode, putting an end to the various bogus titles floating around all week. The title? The very simple “Eastwatch,” named after the Night’s Watch castle by the sea.
SHAKMANNNNNN: Welcome to the party. Stay as long as you like. Well done, man. I was loving Shakman’s clean directorial style before we got to the flashier battle scenes, and the skilled handling of the fire battle just cemented it.
The Fire Battle – There were so many great little touches that I really appreciated – the men turned to perfectly formed ash, the grotesquely (and realistically) burned soldiers, the use of the horses. The Dothraki in battle were great, and overall it was a super satisfying collection of moments, with characters on both sides that we truly care about and didn’t lose in the chaos.
Swordplay & Wordplay – “Who taught you how to do that?” “No one” Arya, you wiseass. I love it. Such a delightful scene, all-around.
The Three-Eyed Asshole – I’m on board for Bran’s journey, it’s interesting to me, but man, it’s hard to see him so cold to people who love him. Ellie Kendrick was breaking my heart. I hope it’s not the last we see of Meera.
Family Ain’t Easy – The Starks have gone through hell. We can’t expect them to be like a group of puppies, happy to be together without any complications or awkward moments. These are siblings who have suffered and changed and come on the other side of a lengthy journey that would’ve killed most people. Seeing them make tentative steps back toward each other is rewarding.
Speaking of Family…– What is it with Jon and women and caves?
Something seems off
HBO has episode 5 as Eastwatch
IMDB has episode 5 as Blood of the Dragon
Given the preview for next week and what we know is coming I’d say next week should be Blood of the Dragon and episode 6 should be Eastwatch which means we only need the last episodes title now
I hope HBO doesn’t stuff up and air episode 6 before episode 5 . I know it sounds stupid but stranger things have happened and Cersie is still ruling the 3 Kingdoms 😂
Sansa’s Knight,
Nothing is off. IMDB is updated by fans, and the Blood title was strictly fanfiction. A source confirmed for me earlier today that that title is fake- I tweeted about it.
Re jon and dany and the caves (and ygritte’s ghost)
That wasn’t just me thinking they were alone all of a sudden? Time to mine some dragon…glass
So second episode in which Danny looked petty and Jon looked annoyed by her. The scene in the cave if it was a romantic trope it fell flat and if anything Jon was looking at her hoping to see something and came out of it empty. Even worst Davos trying to play cupid that was sad. Not saying they are not going to hook up but come on stop over selling it.
Bronn action figures now available at your local WesterosMart.
Yeah, that battle was fucking awesome! Well done, Shakman! Welcome to the family!
I was really conflicted here, lol. I was rooting for Dany… but I didn’t want Jaime or Bronn to die. I also liked that we got a bit of character development for Dickon. It made me care about him during the battle too.
I will say… While I like Dany, her demands that Jon bend the knee are starting to worry me. I hope, when she truly realizes what a threat the White Walkers are, she’ll relent…
As someone pointed it out to me, the end battle was somewhat a fire parallel of Hardhome, except this time we were cheering for the opposite side!
Brilliant episode.
Just before Dothraki are heard, we’re told that all of the gold has made it safely through the gates of King’s Landing.
Only thing I didn’t fully understand from this wonderful episode is why Sansa looked that taken aback by the fact that her sister is a fighter. She survived for years, staying out of sight of everyone, she started her training while they were still together, years prior, and she said she has a list of people she wants to assassinate twice, with that only being confirmed by brother three eyes.
Also one of my favorite quotes was undeniably Bran’s line about the dagger: “The dagger that is meant to kill me.” I wonder how much foreshadowing there is in the episodes about this, even if only a theory? Suspicious…
Amazing recap, as always!
Some thoughts:
The way Bran looks at the Valyrian steel dagger when he hands it to Arya and the close up of her quickly removing it and pressing it to Briens armor seem like foreshadowed Arya fighting a White.
The genuine smile on Aryas face at the thought of seeing her Jon, and his joy to see her. Sansas recognition at that being the prized reunion. 🙂
Dany and Misande look at each other when Dany goes of to speak to Jon 😉 plus D&D’s comment about them gaining attraction.. This Ship doesn’t even have sight of land!
The dragons screech right when Dany changes perspective to ask Jon for advice.. Damn got the chills down
Who taught you how to do that?
No one
Second viewing I caught Tarly saying all the gold made it, guess Cersi gets to pay her debts. That doesn’t bode well for Dany. Cersi with more credit.
That dothraki horse lean leg chop!
Petrified people and dust in the wind
Stoked for partly calling Jamie picking up a lance to wound a down dragon.. but really Dany
Small correction – the gold already made it back to Kings Landing – Randyll Tarly told Jaime before they heard the hooves.
Dany: I’ll give you exactly what you want, Jon Snow, as soon as you … bend the knee.
Me: Is that what the youngsters are calling it these days?
Pretty sure, Sue, that the gold Has made it safely to King’s Landing going by what Lord Tarly said. It was the food trains that were been burnt.
And relative certainly Jon would never have been Theon’s friend. (certainly not in the books) and judging by Theon’s demeaning talk to Osha, he would certainly have given Jon a low-down bastard reproach too, in times pass.
🙂
Sue the Fury,
Oh ok then
Was so hoping it was blood of the dragon though … specially after watching next weeks preview
Pigeon,
(Scorpion Sold Separately) 😛
To recap:
Jack Bauer 24 thinks the writing sucked and the episode jumped around too much. 😂😂😂
Anyone else bothered by the fact that Bran can see everything and has no problem telling people that he knows what they did last Summer? I mean, telling people that you are potentially aware of their most embarrassing secrets/motivations is a great way to get yourself killed. A lot of stuff being said out loud, in front of people, by Starks this season that doesn’t make any sense.
Frostball,
She knows Arya is a fighter, but after Bran confirming the existence of Arya’s list and then seeing her in action after all this time, Sansa now knows that Arya isn’t just a fighter. The Arya she remembers was a scrappy tomboyish girl who didn’t back down from a fight, yes, but she was still relatively innocent and had never killed anyone. Until that moment, Sansa didn’t even know Arya ever had killed anyone, but upon seeing that display of skill, now she knows and believes it. This Arya is a seasoned killer, with the means to follow through on her threats. She’s changed quite a bit, if not nearly as much the radical case of Bran.
They might be family and on the same “side”, but of course this is going to bother her, especially since I’m sure she’s trying to imagine what Arya must have survived in order to become this vicious and this good at what she does. After all, the two of them left the details to each other’s imagination.
Ginevra,
Dany: might as well make it
*both* knees
I am still laughing about Jon “not liking” what he’s good at.
The more I think about this episode, the more I feel that Dany has crossed the line from frequently annoying to downright hateful character. The destruction that her dragons wreak is nothing short of horrifying, regardless of what side their victims are on. And she’s certainly got a lot of chutzpah to lecture Jon about letting go of excessive pride.
Matt Shakman, hats off! What a debut! And credit to a great script from Benioff and Weiss as well!
I gushed about the majesty of the battle at length in the Open Chat, so suffice it to say that facing down a damn dragon, Ser Jaime Lannister and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater were brave as hell. Even Dickon Tarly acquitted himself well. Dickon! I was impressed at how much the show was able to make me care about him from just a few lines, establishing him as a decent man caught in a terrible situation beyond his control, but rising to the occasion nonetheless. Props, Tom Hopper. Billy Bones would be proud.
Jon and Dany’s scenes in this episode were perfection. After the formal frostiness of their initial meeting, their private scene on the Dragonstone steps was much warmer. And after their scene in the cave this week, the good ship Jonerys has fully set sail. And I’m a first-class passenger!
“Isn’t their survival more important than your pride?” Love that callback to Jon’s fantastic conversation with Mance Rayder in Season 5. And speaking of callbacks … “Fewer!” What a PERFECT three-beat for a joke that’s spanned six seasons. Stannis is gone, but Davos learned well!
BigMac,
I wonder what Sam told Jorah during treatment. Sam certainly knows a thing or two about White Walkers… and how to kill the buggers.
Obviously a stunning episode but oh my gods so many plot holes!!!
Too tired to get into them all tonight but I’ll just comment on the enormous improbability that Missandei, speaker of 16 languages, is unfamiar with bastards or marriage.
Also, can we get some footage of 100,000 Dothraki with horses climbing that long, narrow pathway at Dragonstone? I need to see it to believe it.
Lastly, let’s give the gold medal in Long Jump to Bronn. His leap from his horse, then the distance he travels with Jaime… They land in 50 ft deep Blackwater Rush even though he was galloping in water only inches deep. Hmm.
Azor Asshai,
I see that and it makes sense but considering her own road, and after seeing what everyone else in the family has been through (3 dead, one unable to zigzag, one revived, and one a zombie), she shouldn’t be that surprised. Then again, both sister’s constantly made fun of each other, iirc, so maybe the family dynamic has stayed in the past? I an not willing to believe that the relationship hasn’t changed between them, and that their opinion of each other is that similar as it was probably 6 or 7 years ago, but maybe I am missing a crucial element of their dynamic?
Firannion,
To be clear: being Queen gives you license to be chutzpadik. Although I doubt Missandei translates Yiddish very well.
Lovely writeup, Sue! My favorite bit was this:
The dragon-killer weapon is called a scorpion in both tonight’s episode and commentary video.
Seeing all the trueborn Starks together, back in Winterfell, made my heart soar. Sansa and Arya’s reunion in the crypts was perfect – obviously there was still tension, but it was tension that was true to their characters, and there was clear warmth as well. Arya’s smile when Sansa tells her how happy Jon will be to see her! Sansa’s incredulous laugh when Arya mentions her list! As beautiful as Ramin Djawadi’s score is, I thought the decision to let this particular conversation play without music was the correct one.
And the Arya-Brienne sparring session was delightful in every respect. Anyone who isn’t here for it may just dislike fun, joy, and all good things.
And given all the wellspring of affection that I have for the little crannogwoman, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention … MEERA! LADY REED! Seeing her get her heart broken while saying goodbye to Bran shattered my own heart into a thousand tiny pieces. I was shouting at Bran to hug her, to tell her he loved her, to say something, anything … or at the very least, to not be so obliviously cruel. I didn’t want him to just let her go – not like that. But as Meera tearfully and correctly pointed out, the Bran Stark that she knew and loved died in that cave. We suspected it was true, but hearing her actually say it, and Bran essentially confirm it, was gut-wrenching.
The dagger that was meant to kill me, not the dagger that is meant to kill me.
HereBeDragons,
I was recalling how he snarled at Snow when Ghost was found: a freak pup for a freak bastard. And yet Arya and Sansa made out to be besties tonight, so who knows?
So water they are galloping in suddenly becomes deep enough to drown in? Doesn’t track for me.
TheDrowned Goddess,
Who said Dragon Stone has only one entrance or that they werent camped on the island. Imagination people…
Firannion,
I thought she crossed a line or two ages ago, but that’s just me. We’ve had hints of her ruthlessness for a while now. “She’s not Hitler, but…”
The Missandei bit made no sense.
Jack Bauer 24,
Obviously Missandei knows everything. Shes actually the Three Eyed Raven, no?
Wonder if Qyburn poisoned the bolts.
The gold may be “safe” in King’s Landing, but the Iron Bank isn’t in King’s Landing and the debt isn’t paid until the money is in the bank. I wouldn’t really call anything in King’s Landing safe right about now.
Maybe Dany has Drogon gently fish Jaime out with his mouth as a gift for Tyrion? And leverage to get Cersei to surrender? Which she won’t.
😂
**castle and wife accessories pending…**
Great stuff. Just quickly Cinematics of Field of Fire was fantastic, especially loved the Bronn-to-the-Ballista scene which gave a great sense of the chaos
If I’ve observed things correctly, Randyll mentions the Gold got to KL just before the battle.
The point presumably is that after the destruction of much of the Lannister Army Cersei will be able to somewhat re-balance things by firstly pulling the Ed Sheeran and pals soldiers out of the RL so there are still some Lannister soldiers around her but she also has the coin and the IB backing to hire the Golden Company and pick herself back up.
Presumably the surrendering Lannister soldiers would serve Dany via Tyrion Lannister so we have Tyrion with some Lannister soldiers now and so we have the aesthetics of a Lannister civil war and things are balanced, eg Lannisters/Unsullied on one side and Lannisters/Golden Company on the other
Hoping we’re in for an Unsullied vs Golden Company fight!
ROFL
Bronn was great in this, I liked how his knife trick etc didn’t work and how his horse got upended etc
It’s a good way of conveying that he seems to be in over his and would consider switching sides IMO
Dany and Jon are such Targs though.The last two remaining ones manage to find each other and have the hots lol.Typical.
TheDrowned Goddess,
Hahahaha I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw that! At least make it a cliff!
That was amazing!
Eastwatch? The simple place name title sounds promising, re: Hardhome, Blackwater.
Now that was the best episode of the season so far, and not just because it’s the last one aired. Still things feel a bit rushed most of the time, guess this is how it’s going to be till the end.
You can now forget the Little Bear, the Little Direwolf is back. In an episode with a relatively big battle in it, Arya stole the show. Interactions with different characters, broad spectrum of emotions, even the sparring scene was great. Kinda stupid on it’s own, but that just makes it harder to act, and Maisie pulled it out splendidly. Seriously, this girl is the heart of the show since day one.
In other developments:
Podrick needs and weapons master. He’s actually getting worse with the sword.
Daenerys needs Jora back asap. If she’s going to actively partake in war, she can use some advise first. One moment she’s unhappy because the Lannisters took the food supplies from High Garden and her horde will starve, the next moment she orderly destroyed the same supplies… The difference between a head on attack and flanking ( where the big lizard would be far more efficient against that thin red line ) is also lost on her.
Somehow I’m afraid this might have been the last time we saw Meera Reed. Come on, writers, don’t be mean.
Giocrypt,
Not sure what you were watching, but every one at my house was screaming, KISS HER, at the TV. They have tons of chemistry. LOVE IT. Cannot WAIT.
Thank you to those here who caught that the gold made it to KL. Twitter seems to have completely missed that part. The exact dialogue from Randyll Tarly to Jaime was, “All the gold’s safely through the gates at king’s landing.”
Her obsession with this feels more and more like bad writing. After all, she didn’t request that from Yara and Theon, she quite easily dismissed it and granted the Iron Islands some sort of autonomy.
seenGhost?,
So shes being aggressive… And?
Great thoughts
I heard some throwaway line that “Randyll and Dickon will get roasted by fire” and so I had always thought they’ll give him the shit treatment but I was happily – delighted – in fact that they are giving his character more substance
Eg he is made out like a douche when with Sam over his WW cynicism but this shows that for all his great hunting skill he is still fighting for a sense of respect as well, eg talking of his first time in battle which was great as for both Sam and Dickon they both have large shoes to fill as far as their fathers battle reputation go
Secondly the fact his name is derided by Bronn etc and Jaimie STILL forgets etc, it all reminds me of the Jonn-is-jealous-of-Robb-and-Sam-is-jealous-of-Robb convo
Not sure what happened to Randyll but if Dickon has survived which I think he has then quite a lot gets placed on his character as Warden of the South, eg is he the Reach Lord character who symbolises their defection to Dany?
Secondly it keeps open the prospect of him meeting Sam and getting Heartsbane etc
So this may justify the re-casting from glorified extra to a more substantial actor ala Myrcella re-casting
Yeah Jon and Dany was interesting, Dany doesen’t seem to get that people are following Jon for the same reasons Missandei states they follow Dany, and it is nicely summed up by Dany going on about “his pride” when Jon has none, Benjen squashed any arrogance out of him and since S1 he “just wanted to be a Ranger” ala by himself in the wilderness and he keeps getting put into leadership positions by others, eg Sansa last season and then Lady Mormont
Sansa’s Knight,
Given the preview and what we know about next week? You mean that it will focus on the WWs approaching Eastwatch by the Sea, as plainly noted in the preview. Also, airing E06 before E05 of a linear story would not just be stupid, it would be purely asinine.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Not aggressive. Stupid, stubborn, not flexible or consistent. No need for that, and it takes too long. They should solve it already, it’s getting boring.
Bran didn’t return Sansa’s hug when they reunited last episode.
He did return Arya’s hug.
Random, or foreshadowing a Sansa betrayal?
Unbelievably good episode. Too much to say so I’ll just say: master class episode from start to finish.
Silly overall season type stuff/musings: I love that Bronn remembered what Jaime offered him but Varys can’t (won’t?) remember that Ned quit being Robert’s Hand over Dany’s execution plans? Jon can’t remember to mention Aemon to Dany? Ned standing up for Dany was a MAJOR plot point in S1. He and Varys had multiple scenes about it. Hopefully that just means Varys is still playing for Team Cersei because if not, that’s a writing snafu. If he’s on Dany’s side he’d tell her that Ned was her SOLE supporter during the assassination plot by Robert and his council. That would go a long way in smoothing over things with Jon for sure.
The AI Program Formerly Known as Bran doesn’t think to tell his sisters that LF had a dagger to their father’s throat in S1?
Bran’s sudden changes should include or hopefully he goes back to being more like himself later seeing as Max Von Sydow wasn’t like that at all.
So my only critique of this episode, and this season in general, has been that the writers and D&D are leaving way too much happening off screen. They’re relying too much on the audience making assumptions based off of context and dialogue. I mean, it would have been nice to see Dany mount Drogon and leave Dragonstone rather than hear it from Jon. I would much rather have a more fleshed out season 7 rather than this shell we’ve been given. I think they’re sacrificing a lot of character interactions in order to progress the series. I would have rather SEEN a gradual attraction build between Dany and Jon rather than Davos’s dialogue. As English teachers everywhere will say: “Show, not tell.” I would have rather seen a dialogue between Meera and Sansa and Arya rather than the quick exit she was given.
But I am appeased with the great battle scenes and Stark reunions so there’s that. I also don’t know if it’s inconsistent writing or an inconsistent Dany, but she’s been contradicting herself a lot. It may have been intentional in this episode but when she told Jon to push his pride aside and bend the knee in order to save his people, that could’ve easily been applied to her as well. The North is one of the kingdoms she wishes to rule over, and therefore protect, so she should put her own pride aside in asking this of Jon and help him fight the Night King. And oh man, the music for the final battle scene was EEEEPIIIIIC!
Moët,
I know its very odd, and doing so would of made sense but then they go back to their stand off, later in the beach you got Jon once again looking everywhere trying to be anywhere else but there. Not saying the attraction is not there just saying that aside from the physical there is nothing so far.
Way I read that scene is she almost seemed to be jealous of having to now “share Brienne” with Arya (on top of Bran giving the highly prestigious VS dagger to Arya), and that Arya is able to interact with Brienne in a way she never would be able to
But it could tie in with Bran talking about Arya’s list and seeing the training, it is a bit of a shock to see that Arya is a legit killing machine
seenGhost?,
Youre being way too critical IMO. Enjoy the show.
In return
Completely disagree. I really like them preserving the reveal of Dany going on the offensive until Jon drops his “queen isn’t here” line.
It really reminded me of a similar moment in Baelor way back in S1:
“Did we catch the Stark boy, at least?”
“He wasn’t here.”
“Where was he?”
“With his other 18,000 men.”
“…And where are they?”
Cut to revealing that Robb ambushed and captured Jaime.
We don’t need to see everything on screen explicitly. Sometimes a moment done well tells you everything you need to know.
seenGhost?,
Dany wanting Jon to bend the knee is reasonable. Try to see it from her perspective for a second. Jon wants an alliance without understanding how an alliance works. An alliance goes both ways. Jon cant expect that Dany would sacrifice herself, armies and dragons to fight for a kingdom with nothing in return. If the North refuses to commit to her then why should she commit herself, her dragons and her armies to the North? Dany let Yara keep the Iron Islands because Yara offered her ships to take her home and help her take the IT. See: give and take. Why does Dany need Jon exactly right now? According to Jon and Davos, the North barely has any men capable of putting up a good fight. They also barely have any food or resources. Dany still has the biggest army ever, 3 dragons and an island filled with dragonglass. Now she has the Reach and other Southern regions that can provide her with food and resources. Even if she has to fight the WW, she doesnt really need Jon or his help. The only thing that Jon can offer her as a proof of his loyalty and the only guarantee that he wont stab her in the back is the North. Jon wants to keep the North independent while expecting Dany to abandon her life’s work and risk her life and the lives of her followers and children for people that refuse to commit to her?? How is that reasonable? If Jon wants to keep the North independent then the reasonable thing she ought to do is let him handle the WW when the come South of the Wall and if he fails (which he most likely would) and WW move to kingdoms that have bent the knee then she can start her fight against the WW and protect the people who accepted her as the queen and Protector of the Realm. She has already shown Jon great hospitality and has generously while giving him the freedom to take as much dragonglass as he wants. So you really cant blame her for wanting him to bend. If you were in her place, would you go and risk placing your life and the lives of your loved ones in danger to protect people that wont nothing to do with you and view you with extreme dislike?
Tycho Nestoris,
gl…ASS you mean?
After that, I think Bronn has earned every castle in Westeros, lol!
Boromir,
Yeah, ok I’ll concede to that point because that was a pretty cool transition from Jon to Dany & Field of Fire 2.0, and I also agree that not everything needs to occur onscreen, I’m just saying that they’re doing it too much. I’m just spoiled and reminiscing over earlier seasons with gradual progressions instead of this more fast-paced season.
BigMac,
Hes earned an action figure at least!
I disagree. The attraction has already surpassed the physical stage. Dany reminds Jon of himself. He is beginning to notice the similarities in their way of thinking. Love her or hate her, she does share a lot in common with Jon. During the 1st meeting, she asks him not to judge her for her father’s actions which is what he said in the previous episode about the Umber and Karstark children. During their first meeting, he recognized immediately and said how Dany didnt fly right away to KL and burn it down even though she could have easily done that and conquered Westeros already. He recognizes that she cares about the people’s well-being. He was taken aback and grateful to see her giving him access to as much dragonglass as he wanted without asking for anything in return. In this episode, she reminded him of himself when she quoted the words he told Mance as he asked him to bend the knee to Stannis. Then with Davos, he speaks of what a good heart she has and seems to finally understand that she became a Queen and a Khaleesi in Essos not because shes a Targaryen princess, but because she inspires others and makes them believe in her. She was chosen by her followers just as he was chosen by the Night Watch to become their leader (I’m not including the North here because ultimately, he became king in the North thanks to his relationship to Ned Stark).
I have to say, I like the progression of their relationship. The physical attraction started the minute they both laid eyes on each other and but you can see how despite their bickering, they have begun admiring and respecting each other.
Bronn losing his bag of money has to be one of the saddest scenes in GoT history :'(
Meanwhile, the trekking shot of Bran, Arya and Sansa in the Winterfell courtyard is one of the most touching <3
Because of the same argument that Davos uses to get Stannis to do that very thing. If you want to be the ruler of the seven kingdoms then you have to be the one to actually defend the seven kingdoms. Neither Jon nor Davos have actually made that argument to her though. Bit peculiar that Davos hasn’t brought that up.
I just don’t see why Jon hasn’t offered to bend the knee after she helps him defeat the WW instead of before it.
Bran has only done it in front of people he completely trusts; Sansa, Arya and Meera.
His “chaos is a ladder” line is equivocal. LF is not a believer, but is shaken.
Bran’s emotional IQ is clearly off. His disconnection from his human side is showing badly. He needs to disentangle and reintegrate but he no longer has a guide to help him do so – and little time.
Jojen’s warning over being a warg and staying too long in Summer has essentially come true; except he has stayed too long warging the Tree. It has cost him his humanity, at least for now.
Firannion,
“And she’s certainly got a lot of chutzpah to lecture Jon about letting go of excessive pride.”
You’ll remember that Jon used nearly word for word the same lecture with Mance at Castle Black and did the same with Tormund. Between that and Bran’s “chaos is a ladder” comment, they seem to give us a “You know nothing Jon Snow” moment fairly frequently…
Exactly! There’s a lot of telling, but no showing. I wish we had more character interactions as well. It’s clear the writers are just following a checklist right now and moving on quickly without much focus. The Jon and Theon scene is a good example of that, as is the Bran and Meera scene.
Dany was chosen by the people who came with her from Essos, but she’s not giving Westeros the same option. She wants to force the North to bend to her, even though they chose a good leader already. Oh girl Jon’s pride is obviously not the problem here…
Leuf,
I mean the solution is right there.Get married.They will accept it then.I mean I know they need drama and what they are going for but that would be the simplest solution.
Great episode.
Meera got short shrift, Arya proves she’s a badass, Jon and Dany are gonna get it on, and bronn realised fear was brown.
Omg Sansa isn’t envious of Arya’s fighting in that scene. I think she’s surprised because she did not expect her little sister to be this skilled and quick at fighting. She’s not scared Arya will steal Brienne from her. Arya’s fighting style is also not Westerosi, so it’s definitely something Sansa has never seen before. She doesn’t know what Arya has gone through yet. If you look at the first time they talk about Arya’s “list”, Sansa is amused because she still sees her as her little sister. It’s only later in the episode that she realizes Arya is capable of looking after herself. Just like how Jon sees Sansa as his little sister and wants to protect her.
Some people thought they are smart for being critic. But you’re just losing an entertainment for yourself. It’s kinda sad that you don’t enjoy much as we do.
Such an amazing 50 minutes. I was on the edge of my seat. Wonderful job, incredibly by a rookie GoT director!
I posted my detailed thoughts in open chat, but two more:
I still feel like the Join/Dany “chemistry” is contrived. It’s gonna take more than a few sideways glances and giggles for me to ship them.
I do have one question: I keep reading claims in comments that Bran can see the future. Is that true? I know he can see the past and present, but do his visions include things that haven’t happened yet?
Flayed Potatoes,
There was a brief second – when Sansa asked who was on the list – that thought Sansa might also ask, “Am I?”
I would have cracked up.
Giocrypt,
Who is overselling it? Sue? I thought it was quite clear that Jon and Danny were both conflicted in their interaction. Both want to stick to their principles but both seem intrigued/attracted to the other. The after episode commentary confirmed it. You might be reading certain scenes differently than how they are intended and that’s cool, but nobody is overselling something that is so obvious.
Its amazing to me how for some people its like we are watching two different shows when it comes to Jon/Danny/Sansa etc.
Wandering Gal,
I dont watch the episode commentary and I don’t believe anything the actors say as its all part if deception. Remember these are the same people that told you Jon was dead for good for almost a year.
Flayed Potatoes,
We really have a lot of characters interactions. The whole WF plot is just about that. In the last two episodes there was at least 40 minutes of characters interaction at Dragonstone.
Jon and Theon scene is not a good example, because they just met. We will have more scenes with them in future. It’s just like saying that Dany and Tyrion didn’t interact enough after 507.
Winterfell : Pretty good. LF continues to be useless, but that’s not new. Wish Bran had creeped him out even more. Arya’s reunion with both Bran and Sansa was more satisfying to me than Sansa’s reunion with Bran, probably because Bran actually kinda hugged Arya back, and was less of total robot. His attitude towards Meera was shit though. Felt really bad for her.
The show’s refusal to address Rickon is annoying. They should have had Arya learning of his death and reacting to it. In Season 6 she tells the Waif that her brothers “could be dead for all she knows”, which implies that she hadn’t heard about Theon “killing” them as Sansa had. If she had heard about that, she would have just said they were dead.
Given that, Arya should have asked about Rickon, or they could have had her see his grave next to Ned’s, since Jon ordered Rickon to be buried next to Ned.
Rickon was the youngest Stark, his death shouldn’t be glossed over.
King’s Landing : Nothing much to say, it was fine.
Dragonstone : Pretty good overall, but two things disappointed/frustrated me. First, Jon’s conversation with Dany.
“Isn’t there survival more important than your pride ?”, Dany asks. And once again, D&D show why I find their dialogue problematic, as they deprive Jon of the very obvious and powerful comeback : “I could ask you the same thing, your grace”.
Dany is essentially saying that if the Northerners don’t submit to her, she will let them all be slaughtered. Not only is this evil, but it’s also highly illogical. The North is useless to her if everyone in it is killed, and in any event, she’ll have to fight the WW anyway once they make it to the South.
If she were a true Queen, concerned for her people, she would fight the WW whether they bend the knee or not. First because it’s the right thing to do, second because it’s in her best interest as well.
Say what you will about Stannis, but I always loved his line in the books : “Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne“.
If Dany were half as righteous as she thinks she is, she would come to the same realization. By demanding that Jon bend the knee if he wants help, she’s implicitly saying that if they don’t recognize her as their Queen, they can all die. Awesome. Evil AND stupid.
My second issue with Dragonstone is Theon’s reunion with Jon. It was really underwhelming. Nothing powerful about the scene, just more of Jon the macho man, talking about killing dudes he doesn’t like, as he did with LF. Can’t they give Jon something more interesting to say ? If I want this type of simplistic dialogue I can just watch a soap opera. Their exchange was also way too brief. This episode was 50 minutes, they had time for more.
Field of Fire : The battle was pretty amazing. Shakman did a really good job. It bugs me that Dany is literally on there with her fucking dress on, like the show can’t even be bothered to give something a little more appropriate and suitable for a battle. She should really have a saddle for Drogon, and some armor. She just looks silly hanging onto his neck as she’s in her dress with her hair blowing in the wind, yet still looking perfect and gorgeous.
The cliffhanger is a little silly, but exciting nonetheless. I wish there had been more focus on Tyrion’s emotional dilemma as he’s seeing this all unfold. I hope Bronn is dead, not because I don’t love the guy, but because we need it for the impact of the battle to feel right. If both Bronn and Jaime survive, it’ll be a massive cop out.
With all the attention Bronn got this week, it would be the perfect time for him to die, saving Jaime like a badass. Not sure Bronn would have done anything so selfless when we first met him. He could have easily fled the battle with his gold. He didn’t. He stayed, and fought for Jaime, despite expressing frustrations with him earlier in the episode. He was willing to die for Jaime, and he should.
Notable absences : I really miss the Hound at this point. After the strong material he had in episode 1, 3 absences in a row is too much.
I also missed Sam, as I’ve been enjoying the Oldtown scenes. We only have three episodes left at this point, I’m not sure Sam should be skipping episodes. We still need much more from this Citadel story. Curing Jorah and discovering the dragonglass (which he had already been told about) is nowhere near enough. Sadly, I don’t think we’re going to get what I want.
With such a short episode, there’s no reason to skip Sam. There was plenty of time.
Overall this was probably the strongest episode of the season so far for me. It had the fewest plot holes of what we’ve seen so far this year, this fewest logical issues, and no one really did anything that would be out of character, except maybe Dany’s refusal to fight the WW if Jon doesn’t bend the knee. If she really believes him now, it’s completely and utterly vicious and idiotic to refuse. I have many issues with Dany, but I don’t believe she should be anywhere near this short-sighted.
I’ll give it an 8.5/10.
The battle/massacre was amazing. The stunt people really brought their a-game to this.
Winterfell and Arya’s homecoming was great. Littlefinger noticed at the end that she had the dagger. It would be poetic justice if that is the dagger that takes his life, and Arya does the deed. After this episode I’m not worried about Sansa’s loyalty to Jon. The Stark pack is back together and is waiting for its pack leader to come back home. And it was quite clear from Sansa’s words to Arya that she believes he belongs with them.
What did not work is this budding Dany/Jon romance. The show is very hamfistedly hitting us over the head with it, but the actors are not selling it. I saw only two mopey doe eyed people gazing at each other in soft light.
Yes, he said the same to Mance, but at the time, he wasn’t in charge – Mance should have knelt to Stannis, not him. He was just a mediator, he wanted to spare Mance’s life, and that was the only way.
With Tormond, though, he was the one in charge, he used the same arguments, but he never demanded Tormund to kneel (like Stannis wanted Mance, or now Dany wants Jon). Even in this season, Jon points out that he and Tormund are allies, and he is not Tormunds King, and he can’t order him to go to Eastwatch.
What Jon wants from Dany, is the same that he offered to Tormund: fight together the common enemy, and leave each other alone.
If Jon knelt, Dany would have the authority to order him to march south and help her against Cersei. She might do that, who knows. Jon can’t give up his own authority, at least not until Dany understands (and believes) the real threat, and is really committed to fight the WWs. (but at that point, why would he?)
I am enjoying the show and being critical. Both fuel each other perfectly 😉
LoonyLuna78,
Thats because there wont be any romance between Jon and Danny in my opinion at least not a real one. It will be one using the other to get what he wants (yes I think it will Jon) I know it aounds crazy but Jon will finally be playing “the great game.”
Firannion,
Right, she should have mothered some cats instead of Dragons. That’d have done it.
Have to say “Shaq-man” battle sequence was nothing less than stunning
But it’s all the small touches, eg the top angle of the burning
But also the Dothraki emerging through the flames, very reminiscent of the White Walker at Hardhome
I loved the trampling over the dead guys ashes, as well as the bit where one second Jaimie is ordering soldiers and the next they are perfectly formed ashes blowing in the wind
As for Jon/Dany “bending the knee”, another angle looking at isn’t just Dany misunderstanding Jon,
Jon knelt before Tormund thinking he was Mance immediately, he also knelt before Stannis but remarked that “he is not my King” to Mance so there’s some irony for lack of a better word that he won’t kneel before Dany, even though he is rightly pointing out the Northern Lords won’t accept it
So for mine there’s an aspect of how much the Free Folk have had an impact on him, eg he’s preparing to “go South” by himself before Sansa shows up at CB, so there’s an issue there where he just wants to be free etc and not kneel to anyone which ties in with Missandei’s “we can all lave at any moment” speech
Chill Pill,
I am not saying it’s unreasonable for Dany to want Jon to bend the knee. I would want the same in her place, and be more demanding. What troubles me is the way it’s being presented and the time it takes to unfold. So far it goes like this”:
D: “Bend the knee!”
J: “Nah. I rather won’t”
D: “OK, cool. Let’s have a friendly chat” … “Btw, would you bend the knee?”
J: “No. Thanks, but no thanks”
D: “Cheers, mate. You know, I have some trouble with my little war here. Could you offer some advise?”
Now, I won’t be surprised if Jon agrees, I just want it solved in the next episode. Getting bored here. They’re in the big game now and it’s not a place for stubborn kids and protracted dialogue.
The chemistry between them… I know it should be there, I just don’t see it yet. But talking about chemistry, what’s with Davos and Missandei? The old smuggler is literally jumping around when she’s around. Is he attracted or is this his way of getting inside information? Either way, it’s funny to watch.
I cant post anything more than a sentence or two. site running too slow and crashing drats
Jenny,
I had the same thought that a marriage arrangement could be made to solve the problem. Feels like a very Davos or Tyrion solution to come up with.
Dang knew coming in she may have to do just that although I’m sure she was hoping not to have to so soon.
Chill Pill, If you were in her place, would you go and risk placing your life and the lives of your loved ones in danger to protect people that wont nothing to do with you and view you with extreme dislike?
If I wanted to win their love, have them bow and be their queen? Yeah, maybe lol. If I had dragons.
thisgirlhasnoname,
Yes he does see some future events. Last season he saw the wildfire exploding under the Sept of Baelor.
However, he’s also mentioned that it’s all still too much at once and he doesn’t see clearly yet.
There is more than one way to bend the knee. He might as well propose to her allready
The Golden Company’s possible entry into the battlefield this late is interesting, but will probably not amount to much as the focus is shifting north. They can be a chaos creator until everyone realises the real threat? Or until Jon’s parentage, legitimacy and right to the throne comes to the fore and sides have to be chosen in that conflict? It just seems like a name drop without the fAegon plotline.
seenGhost?,
There is some talk of Missandei being a mole or faceless man and that Davos sensing something and trying to get information. Make of it what you will lol. People just trying to make sense of Davos interest in her. I do find it out of the blue. Yes she is a beautiful woman. It’s just come on, this is Ser Davos. A practical and wise man. Not known for being an old flirt. Guess we’re just seeing different side to him.
Good reply.
I see some people saying they are moving too fast and there are no character interactions while I also see others saying that there are too many interactions and no action.
I personally love the pacing and think they have found a nice balance between the big and the intimate. Jaime and Olenna, Meera and Bran, Arya and Nymeria, Sansa talking to Jon, etc were all excellent character moments in my opinion while the action, when it does take place, has been great.
Also – someone asked about why was Sansa a little blown away watching Arya. I personally think that she was just overwhelmed by how much each of her siblings has changed. I think there may also be a small tinge of jealousy that Arya developed to be so powerful and self-sufficient in her own right while Sansa’s development in politics and leadership is of a less fascinating variety.
But Daenerys insists Jon bend the knee. He’s still unwilling, so the impasse continues, only now there’s more sexual tension in close cave quarters. Oh yeah, they’re definitely going to have sex eventually. Everyone, get over the aunt-nephew thing. It’s happening.
Yup! Whoever still complains about the aunt-nephew thing hasn’t been paying attention. This is accepted in Westeros, much more among Targaryens! Tyrion’s parents were cousins; the Stark family tree shows married cousins and uncle/niece. So yeah, I’m with Sue here – get over it. 🙂
Having said that, I wasn’t expecting the series would venture there (which David B. has confirmed in the Inside the Episode clip), so color me surprised. One reason was I thought GRRM might find it too cliche to have the two end up together. I think another reason why I didn’t dare consider these two hooking up was because I was afraid that if these two do fall in love with each other, then the bittersweet ending that Martin intended could mean at least one of them would die/be sacrificed. (So irrational to think like that, I know, but, this is GOT.) Anyway, I’m warming up to the idea so for now I’m just gonna see how this relationship develops.
Giocrypt,
If only Jon was this crafty. He can’t even understand the clues Tyrion sends his way. However these two Targaryens become allies, a clash and break between them is inevitable when Jon’s parentage and question of legitimacy becomes public knowledge.
Giocrypt,
When you consider that something like one out of every 4 kids in the US is sexually abused by a family member – it’s disturbing to see people ‘ship’ this garbage. I don’t care if they didn’t grow up together, it doesn’t change the fact that they’re aunt and nephew. Cousins marrying in the Middle Ages was one thing but having sex with your nephew would have been condemned. The fact that Dany and Jon look like Barbie and Ken seems to be blinding people to the facts. These two have zero chemistry and the forced dialogue is cringe worthy and out of place given the state of their world.
Its the future…..
I see a scene with Sansa and Littlefinger… Littlefinger thinks he is finally getting what he wants. But it is not really Sansa?! And why does she holdthe Valyrian Steel dagger he gave to Bran?
Somethings wrong, shut the light
Heavy thoughts tonight
And they aren’t of Snow White
Dreams of war, dreams of liars
Dreams of dragon’s fire
And of things that will bite
Enter Danaerys!
Maisie was a gem too again 🙂
Of course, the biggest highlight of this episode was the Lannister massacre (about time!) but my favorite was seeing Arya smile like a kid again (first, when Sansa mentioned Jon and Bran to her, then during and after her sparring with Brienne).
What is better than a F16 at a medieval battle ….. 3 F16s.
Hightower,
Arya is not going to kill Sansa.
As for the Sansa/Arya scenes, I think Sansa was more intrigued and awestruck of Arya sparring with Brienne. It was also obvious that she kept Arya’s identity a secret from Littlefinger, which is key. When they were overlooking Brienne and Arya, there’s a very clear moment where he overhears Arya telling Brienne “You swore to obey both my mother’s daughters didn’t you” and Sansa side glances at LF to see if he noticed, which he totally did.
I think Maisie did such a fantastic job this episode. Book Arya was also worried about returning home and seeing Catelyn and Robb again (at the time) for fear that they wouldn’t accept her as she is – a killer and most definitely not the lady Cat wanted her to be. I think when she told Sansa about “the list” Sansa didn’t really take it seriously until Bran mentioned that Cersei was on her list of people she was going to kill. At that point, Arya nervously glanced back at Sansa but again, Sansa seemed more intrigued rather than afraid of Arya. I think it was a nice little homage to book Arya’s internal struggle about returning home.
Another great episode! I teared up a bit when Jaime had to watch yet another leader burn people alive. That scene was horrifying. I was sure Bronn was going to die. Funny how Ramin didn’t use a heroic version of Dany’s theme, but a menacing one. I saw someone comment how Dany’s become just another spoke on the wheel, killing and destroying to gain more power. I’m surprised so many viewers were rooting for Dany. Poor Tyrion, Peter nailed that scene!
I hope Jon doesn’t fall for Dany. Hasn’t this man had enough people disappoint him? These two characters are ultimately heading in completely different directions, so I really hope D&D don’t go for the cheap look-how-hot-these-two-are-together-they-must-bang-now storyline. Or for the even more contrived oh-no-we-banged-and-we-are-closely-related storyline. This show should be better than that. And screen time shouldn’t be wasted on hook-ups at this point.
When did Arya get good at waterdancing?? The scene would’ve felt more earned had she not learned it off screen. Oh well, the Stark kids were wonderful, though. I hope Arya and Sansa stick together, they could be such a powerful team! The way Sansa was looking at Arya was intriguing. She could try to send Arya to kill Cersei..
kathy,
zero chemistry LOLOLOL
I kinda disagree with that dialogue – that Jon wasn’t bending the knee because of his pride (the northern lords, most likely; but Jon, I don’t think so). Perhaps it’s more because of pragmatism than pride? He knew that if he did bend the knee, he’d be beholden to her and her cause (including her war with Cersei). Then, if Dany commands the north to send men down south, they’ll be obliged to follow. Jon knows the north can’t afford to be embroiled in that “smaller war” as the Great War is upon them. As he’s said repeatedly, “There’s no time for any of these.”
Say what you will about Stannis, but I always loved his line in the books : “Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne</
I hope Bronn is dead, not because I don’t love the guy, but because we need it for the impact of the battle to feel right. If both Bronn and Jaime survive, it’ll be a massive cop out.
With all the attention Bronn got this week, it would be the perfect time for him to die, saving Jaime like a badass. Not sure Bronn would have done anything so selfless when we first met him. He could have easily fled the battle with his gold. He didn’t. He stayed, and fought for Jaime, despite expressing frustrations with him earlier in the episode. He was willing to die for Jaime, and he should.
Insights like these are why I love this community.
Markus Stark,
Insights like the Stannis quote and your discussion of Bronn’s character are why I love this community. .
Matt Shakman is more than welcome to return for season 8. He’s proven himself more than capable of handling episodes with intense action and riveting character moments.
Yeah, shame he missed his sister/lover do the exact same thing to innocent, unarmed people, as opposed to an army of soldiers in a field of combat.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/82/e9/e7/82e9e72d14b072843c892258ae39a406–funny-pics-hilarious.jpg
So no reaction from Theon to the news that Ramsey is dead? You would think that would be important for his arc?
Evi,
Actually, Jon and Dany’s paths are converging more than ever. Their interests are aligned and they do have more in common than their current selves realize. The reason they clash is because they’re very similar. That’s precisely the same reason they have some intrigue with one another. When they glance at each other I imagine it’s as if they’re staring into a mirror. That feeling of familiarity is enticing. And in my opinion that’s more than enough reason to assume they’ll have a romantic connection.
Arya water dancing wasn’t an issue with me. It felt earned because she had spent countless practices, albeit failing to completely capture the essence; but nonetheless she soaked up the form and basis of the art like a sponge. In addition to vicarious training from the Hound and intense sessions with the Waif, she has cultivated her own style that’s a brilliant mesh of all of them. She’s nimble yet fierce and calculated. It all came together for me.
Of course that’s not where Jon is really coming from. He learned to put whatever pride he has aside a long time ago. But it’s a way that Dany can push his buttons (possibly at Tyrion’s suggestion, as I don’t think that we’ve seen much evidence that insight into what motivates people, or what their insecurities are, is one of her strong suits).
kathy,
There’s this weird double standard with people being (rightfully) grossed out by Euron creeping over Yara but totally okay with an aunt having sex with her nephew, especially when there’s a power imbalance between them and Jon needs Dany’s help. I guess people think it’s more okay because Dany’s a woman and they are a hot couple. *eyeroll* I must say I’m not that disturbed by the potential incest storyline myself, I just think it’d be a disservice to the characters, incredibly contrived and waste of time, but viewers who have been abused might really suffer.
This was an awesome episode but my only real complaint is that they didn’t make it clear enough that the gold had already made it through. I’m seeing in reviews mentions that Dany was burning the gold so Cersei was screwed with the Iron Bank. They should have made it more obvious rather than a quick one line from Randyll Tarly.
Plus, it doesn’t make sense that Jamie didn’t stay with the gold wagon all the way to King’s Landing.
But still a great episode!
ANYONE beating Brienne would be worthy of awestruck staring from the balcony.
Dany has always been a problematic ruler and I like that the show is having Jon confront her with it. If Jon bends the knee to Dany I will be so dissapointed and angry. They have a lot of work to do to sell that as a reasonable action for him and if it happens the show has gone full annoying woman power.
Missandai should have gone on to say “we follow her because we chose her. And then when she crucified those slave masters we really felt like she had our backs.”
Jon is right to call her out on her wanting to burn everything with her dragons and my read on the editing is we are supposed to assume that he told her she should attack the caravan and army with the dragons in lieu of the city.
Dany is driven a lot by vengeance, in her case vengeance on behalf of former slaves, but it’s vengeance nonetheless. To me one of the main themes of the whole show is that vengeance is a terrible master that always comes around to destroy those who follow it.
I loved this episode. I watched it twice in a row and I almost never do that. I felt the cave scene esp. really grew in depth and import the second time.
Evi,
You are all missing the no:1 point!
Dany & Jon do not know they are related in anyway…….
They should have at least let Dany have her moment and destroy or capture the gold as we had been told she would from the leak.
Without that, the attack seems strategically misguided – apart from sending out a strong signal I guess. Dany ambushed a wagon train and destroyed food which is a vital resource in a war which you should try to acquire. She has gained nothing that seriously damages Cersei’s position and it leaves us asking why she would ever be convinced to meet with her enemies at all.
This episode’s Christopher Nolan moment:
Theon: I came to ask the Queen to help me get her back.
Jon: The Queen is gone.
Theon: Where did she go?
We intuit that there were enough ships left for , say, 50,000 Dothraki, who crossed the narrow sea in like a day or less.
Time Bending.
Some thoughts:
Winterfell – I loved the complexities and humor in the Stark reunions. Arya’s difficulties gaining entrance to the castle were a great callback to The Wolf and the Lion in season one, and I loved that they came together under Ned’s statue. More than once in season one he tried to bring the two of them together, and it was fitting that the first Stark sisters hug we’ve seen in the show was played out here.
And it was great to see Sansa acknowledging – without any hint of jealousy – how much reuniting with Arya would mean to Jon. It must be strange for Arya to see Sansa speaking so fondly of the brother she ignored in childhood. Childhood rivalries need to be put to the wayside so they can look after one another – again a callback to Ned and the speech he gave to Arya in Lord Snow when he discovered the existence of Needle.
So many callbacks in this episode – Arya asking Sansa if she was involved in Joffrey’s death plays back to the Braavosi theatre troop from last season, and Bran was reunited with the dagger that tried to kill him – giving LF a bit of pause for thought in return as he quoted him. Chaos is a ladder. Hmmm.
Arya, Sansa and Bran finally together and interacting was precious. But I like that they’ve shown it isn’t simple. Arya seemed to react better to Bran’s abilities than Sansa. Probably because she’s seen magic herself. Probably also because Bran spoke of her list and being at a crossroads rather than her being brutally raped.
Arya again commented on Oathkeeper – and we got to see the moves she picked up fighting blind at the beginning of season six. I don’t want to open old wounds with regards to the fight with the Waif in No One, but the moves she pulled on Brienne showed how much Arya had picked up and it gave us an idea of how she would have beaten the Waif.
Watching the fight, it clearly occurs to Sansa that Arya wasn’t joking about her list – and that the family member she probably understands most now is the one who came back from the dead. Huh. Also, LF – Arya and Bran are a clear and present danger to him now, and I wonder if he realizes how much.
We got more on how Bran is really becoming the Three Eyed Raven. I felt for Meera – and Ellie Kendrick was fantastic in this scene – as she recounted the sacrifices made. She was right, Bran Stark died in that cave. Remember Jojen’s words from Dark Wings, Dark Words – The raven is you.
King’s Landing – A good, short scene. I loved Mark Gatiss, and the way he pulls off the smug banker look. I also really liked Cersei’s line about wanting to reassert control over Westeros and everyone in it – in the teaser trailer pre-season, we saw Cersei, Jon and Dany walking through their respective castles. Comparing Cersei’s line here, what Dany said in the last episode about being born to rule the Seven Kingdoms, and Jon’s statement about the Northerners choosing him to lead them gives us three different mindsets and philosophies. And I know which I would choose.
Dragonstone – With all the martial activity this season, it was great to see Missandei and Daenerys share a short bonding moment over Grey Worm. Dany might not get to hear about it now, but the way things are heading she may get to experience it herself.
The cave scene (seriously, Jon, what is it with you taking women into caves?) was beautifully shot, written and acted. Dany and Jon crossing paths has been seven seasons in the making, and it had to be beyond good. And so far it hasn’t met my expectations, but exceeded them. The chemistry is fantastic and Kit and Emilia both capture the similarities and antagonisms between their characters beautifully.
The etchings of the Children bring a richness to this world and make it a real history. We got Jon’s words from Trailer #2, and it is clear he seeks a true alliance. He is honest with Daenerys, and he has to be. He needs her dragons.
The cave scene also gave us more of Jon and Dany’s theme that we got a small taster of at the end of their second meeting in The Queen’s Justice. It is stunning, and I am no expert on music, but I think (or maybe it is wishful thinking) that there was a harp in there somewhere.
Dany has been curious about Jon since her meeting with Tyrion over the dragonglass. And it is interesting to see her ask his advice – Jon, as always, is brutally honest with her.
And Jon and Theon reuniting! They are going to have to be reluctant allies in the same way Tyrion and Ellaria should have been, and Jon clearly isn’t happy with Theon. I would have liked to see Jon say more – perhaps mention Robb’s name? Clearly Sansa has told Jon something of Theon, and maybe it includes the torture he suffered at Ramsay’s hands. It felt like Jon was holding back a lot. Hopefully we get to see them interact again in future episodes.
Also, Jon keeps getting his own words/things said about him thrown back at him. Last episode it was Dany talking about children not being punished for the crimes of their fathers. In this episode, Dany evokes almost word for word what Jon said to Mance about bending the knee in The Wars to Come, and Missandei speaks about the Essosi following Dany because they believe in her – the reason Davos had said people follow Jon.
Speaking of character interactions – I want to see Jon and Varys!
Field of Fire – Wow. This action sequence was stunning, and we finally got a chance to see the dragons in action against a Westerosi army – not to mention the Dothraki. Clearly Robert knew something at least, don’t fight the Dothraki in open battle. But then, Jaime didn’t have much of a choice.
As with any Thrones episode, there is a great blend of action and character moments.
Olenna’s words about Joffrey are clearly still preying on his mind throughout this episode. Poor Bronn – he now has his gold, but he is still waiting for his high-born wife complete with castle. I am loving season seven Dickon. I’ve never seen Black Sails, but I’ve been impressed thus far with Tom Hopper. He feels a lot more rounded as a character this year – and I loved the fact that Highgarden was the scene of his first battle.
We should definitely take a moment out to consider that Sam fought and killed men in battle (in Watchers on the Wall) before Dickon did – that’s two fingers up to you, Papa Tarly!
The Field of Fire 2.0 was amazing. They keep coming up with different ways to shoot battles, but still have callbacks to others. Dickon saving Jaime reminded me a bit of Tormund coming to Jon’s aid during the Battle of the Bastards.
And Tyrion – we haven’t seen him near a proper battlefield since Blackwater. Dany might think he has problems destroying his family, and while there is no love lost between Tyrion and Cersei the situation with Jaime is very different. Tyrion clearly still has a great deal of love and affection for his brother.
I loved Bronn in this sequence. More than once, I thought he’d abandon the field of battle. But he stuck with Jaime. Perhaps he is picking up a touch of loyalty in his old age?
The dragon-riding sequences have really been improved since Daznak’s Pit, and Dany in battle with Drogon is a sight to see.
Overall, I loved this episode – I would’ve liked to see more to Jon and Theon’s reunion, and for Bran to mention something about Howland to Meera. But that’s me being a bit nitpicky, and we may well see more of the former in the future. I’m really looking forward to next week. His armor may be heavy, but I don’t think Jaime is dead. I’m far too invested in him being the Valonqar to believe he’d be killed off before he can strangle his sister!
Finally, excellent debut by Shakman – can’t wait to see what he gives us in episode five!
TheDrowned Goddess,
Because there is no marriage where she is from and was a slave how would she know??? You listen to what she said?
TheDrowned Goddess,
Dany needs to go back to the Dothraki Leathers when going into battle , gonna mess up a Court Dress .
Ser Hogwyn,
Jaime sacrificed his reputation and his honour to save people from getting burned. Yes, it’s ridiculous that he still remains loyal to his sister, but that doesn’t take away from how difficult it must have been to see again that his sacrifice was in vain. Now, in stead of there being one leader ready to burn people, there are two. And no, I wasn’t suggesting that what Cersei did wasn’t worse than what Dany did, but being a bit better than Cersei is hardly a compliment and Dany’s not going to gain more followers by burning people. Leaders who claim to be revolutionary should aim higher than that.
1. I would be quite happy with a season directed entirely by Miguel Sapochnik and Matt Shakman.
2. I need more scenes of Jon advising Team Dragonstone. (Also need the Dany-Jon music song.)
3. Davos is the best dad ever.
4. I cheered aloud when Arya flipped back to her feet. So surreal to see her Faceless Men moves in Winterfell!
5. That battle. A heartbreaking collection of shots and scenes. Never thought I’d feel sympathy for the Lannisters. Those poor, poor men, frantically trying to remove their scorching armour.
6. Dany soaring out of those clouds, though.
7. “Your people can’t fight” was both saddening and deeply satisfying. Nice touch with Tyrion as a spectator.
8. “When he sees you, his heart will probably stop.” DON’T GIVE D&D ANY IDEAS!!!
Another great episode that dismisses any silly notion that short episodes aren’t as good. I loved every second of the episode up until the battle, and then the battle blew me away. You don’t see battles as good as that in almost every blockbuster movie let alone television. It was incredible.
I was happy when it was announced that Shakman was directing a couple of episodes this season (I would’ve liked another new director as well) as I’ve seen his work and it has always impressed me, but this episode was unbelievable. I’d love to see him back next season, but there’s so many directors I’d like back that he might only get one episode.
I was thinking that too. Curious to mention, the Golden Company. But isn’t there a problem? One would think the Iron Bank , without its gold, will either go with Dany or leave the field. So no paymaster for the Golden Company.
So in order to kill LF, Arya is going to kill her sister just for giggles? Never happening.
We don’t intuit; Tyrion said it in the previous scene with them in the beach.
I thought this was a great episode based on entertainment and can accept many of d and d’s choices.
One thing i don’t get is why Dany burnt the entire baggage train. Didn’t she say in her previous scene she needs the food to feed her army? If it was a raid to undermine Cersei’s position in KL it would make sense but the intent here was to defeat the Lannister army, which would have led to capture.
Explanations welcome.
Also LF is toast. The look Arya gave him after the awesome Arya-Brienne scene is clear foreshadowing.
And honestly although i am admittedly a sansa fan i have never been wowed by Sophie Turner until this season (with some exceptions in season 6 in particular). She has been killing it in my opinion. Her work with x-men has really helped her mature
Seconded!!
Also: Jon and Euron. Just want to see what those two could possibly say to each other – Euron could be really helpful against the White Walkers, but he’s such a shameless ass. Could be hysterical!
I think most people are irritated with Jamie at this point, and other then Bronn they rest are useful dragon fodder, and Dany has Dragons… they are cool.
I also don’t want Jon and Dany to end up together – it is the oldest trope in the book, and this story was supposed to disrupt stereotypical tropes, but alas I feel it is inevitable at this point – it will happen, 90% of people want it to happen – but I agree with you, I rather not focus on it.
Arya has been shown practicing and training on her own for years, i’m sure she has been mentally fighting in her head too, thinking about how to improve herself, especially since she is so small – and her time with the Waif wasn’t wasted either, she was starting to learn to fight back – she still needs proper training, but this girl has had sword fighting on her mind for 7 seasons…
Along with S04E01 and S06E10, I’d say that was one of the three best episodes post-season three. In particular, that was by some distance my favourite battle scene in the history show, which I say as someone who’s not normally that big on battle scenes, to the extent that I don’t rank S05E08 as a favourite.
Two specific things it brought to mind. The build-up before the fight very obviously owed a lot to Zulu. And I may be a bit further out on a limb here, but the dragon attack shots strongly reminded me of some very specific WW2 footage, to the extent that I’d love to ask the director if he had been, if it’s the right word to use, “inspired” by it:
Markus Stark,
THIS! It was a missed opportunity.
I liked the battle but how in the hell did Dany managed to transport them from Dragonstone to the mainland? Didn’t she lost most of her ships? Maybe I missed a line of dialogue where it was explained how they got a horde of Dothraki screamers out there?
By intuit I meant the Time Framing.
It is good to see they are keeping the POVs in the Dragon-Batteling of Dany’s pilot-view-PLUS. The camera is more than over her shoulder , it’s pulled back we see her-Drogon , in the foreground and the battle field in the background. First used in S6E9 at Meereen sea battle.
It is cool.
Ser Hogwyn,
Daenerys’s main, one might even say only, selling point as far as Westerosi are concerned is that she is supposed to be better than Cersei. However, the events of the “Field of Fire revisited” seriously challenge that assumption for the Targaryen queen did precisely what the Lioness would have done (and, in fact, did) in similar circumstances.
Furthermore, the scene is a direct contradiction to the Daenerys mythos as depicted by Missandei. She asserted that the Mother of Dragons was her queen by choice and that, if she decided to leave her service, Daenerys would not stop her in any way. As it turns out, when confronted with the rejection of a part of the Westerosi population, the Targaryen queen did not shrug and accept their decision. She turned them into shish kebabs !
“Obey me or get roasted” are not exactly the words one expects to come out of the mouth of a self-proclaimed breaker of chains. What chains is Daenerys breaking here ? Those that tie Westerosi to their mortal coil ?
Tyrion wanted to avoid a “field of fire” scenario for a reason; he understands that, in Westeros, the Mother of Dragons cannot claim the moral highground over her opponents with as much ease as she used to in Essos. In the Seven Kingdoms, she is not really liberating anyone so she must handle the situation with much more finesse than usual. If she does not, as Jon pointed out, she is merely “more of the same” only with extra hypocrisy thrown into the mix for spreading freedom one bomb at a time has never been, is not and will never be a good look.
Redx,
But the audience knows. How did viewers react to that Theon/Yara scene? Theon didn’t know.
Also, incest aside, we know what’s coming. Jon and Dany will find out about Jon’s father eventually. Most likely Dany will react badly when she realises she doesn’t have a claim to the throne. The affair will feel like a cheap gimmick to create more drama, especially because there won’t be a happy ending for them (this is GoT) and the romance and its aftermath will have taken a ton of precious screen time. Seriously, isn’t anyone else bored out of their mind even with the possibility of Jonerys happening?
Firannion,
I just don’t get comments like this.
How is it more honorable of say, Jon, killing hundreds of enemies with a sword at his hand than Dany killing her enemies with her weapon-Dragonfire?
Its not as if she didn’t try the peaceful way. She heeded Tyrion’s advice as a result of which hundreds of her allies saw their death. What did you want her to do after that? Sit atop her dragons and sing ‘Kumbaya’ ?
With regards to her demands of ‘Bend the knee’, those are just contrived bs on the part of the writers to build up the tension up until the season finale. Similar example you can find with Bran-the guy apparently knows everyone and everything, all except Littlefinger. Pfft.
I must say that Dany did a wonderful thing when she marched that fast from Dragonstone to Highgarden with thousands of Dothrakis , truly wonderful .
Not only was this the best episode (yet), it also was followed by the best review on a GoT-Episode. I was enjoying every bit, Sue. Thanks!
I’m not sure what you mean.. are you referencing the current repayment? The gold made it to King’s Landing, according to Baldy McGrowlingvoice. Or do you mean the dimming prospects of a future loan/repayment, which have definitely altered the investment landscape since the Lannister BBQ.
I agree with this completely. It’s quite obvious that Dany doesn’t yet appreciate the severity of the threat to the North. She is still focused on her own quest for the Iron Throne. For Jon to submit to her at this point would be stupidity on his behalf. He first needs to ensure that she realizes that fighting off the white walkers is a priority, before trusting her with authority over the North.
Besides, Dany was wrong when she said that the North would follow her if their king did, that they would follow their king. The first 2 episodes showed that the North does not blindly follow their king, in fact the North loves to object to every word their king says, even when he is right lol. If Jon knelt to Dany, they would just revolt against him.
Tyrion said earlier in the episode that they still had enough ships to transport the Dothraki to the mainland.
They must have been very close to King’s Landing for the gold wagons to make it. I heard a mention of “crossing the Blackwater ford” or something like that.
ygritte,
IMO Davos & Missandei is much more simplier. Missandei was introduced as “the Queen’s most trusted advisor” and Davos is also Jon’s most trusted advisor or at least the only trusted advisor on Dragonstone. So, for Davos Missandei is someone in an equal position, and while Jon is working with Tyrion and Dany, Davos seems to be trying to establish some communication backchannl through Missandei which is quite logical.
The only problem I have is that Missandei has never been an advisor: she is the trusted handmade for girls’ talks – nothing wrong about that, but when has she ever advised Dany about anything? She gave her encouragement in some cases, but again giving encouragement to the boss is the role of a trusted servant/subordinate, not that of an advisor. Maybe it’s a problem of my English, but I can’t take Missandei as an advisor of any kind.
And her interaction with Jon and Davos this episode was absolutely cheesy. Maybe, it had to be that way – I don’t know, bu she sounded like some overprogressive summer femminist, boasting that they had no marriage in her native Naath. No marriage means no fatherhood, no fatherhood means no protection for children, and maybe that’s the reason why Missandei ended up as a slave.
In general, the Dragonstone scenes were a bit off for me this episode and Dany really sounded quite crazy with her knee-bending idee fixe, though I have to admit that such stubborness and stupidity is a common case in real world and I’ve seen plenty of that.
Chill Pill,
Stop making so much sense, you’re going to break the Jon fans’ brains.
If Jon bends the knee, I hope they do.
Are you sure about that?
Seemed everything was traveling with Jamie?
Did Jamie not learn? No scouts?? Come on. Also, it will be quite poetic when Arya kills Littlefinger with his own knife!
It is obvious that Jon will bend the knee but in order to execute his special tongue skills in caves…
Yeah i would say that to , because marching thousands of Dothrakis from Dragonstone to Highgarden would not go that fast , also for sure Lannister scouts would have seen them. But oddly there was no Lannister that saw that Dragon and thousand of Dothrakis marching to Jaime Lannister and hes Soldiers.
+ The show has always delivered on the spectacle front (the show’s main selling point, really), and this was particularly great in that regard. Unlike the similarly visceral Battle of the Bastards last year, the plot didn’t get in the way of enjoying it.
+ Related to the above, the show didn’t have the budget in its early seasons to depict Robb’s campaign, so it was wonderful to see the Lannisters finally get the shit kicked out of them onscreen. If only Cersei could have been the first one incinerated.
+ Sophie and Maisie of course delivered on the acting front, but I thought the writing of the girls’ reunion was pretty solid as well.
+ Kit and Emilia felt a bit flat in last week’s episode, but they had a lot more scene chemistry this time around.
– The battle was great, but on a plot level the larger strategic picture in the south is still a mess. The show is really trying to sell the idea that Dany shouldn’t just nuke the Red Keep and win the war in an hour, but there is no credible reason not to do this. This is the writers struggling to keep Cersei in the game in a role she was never intended to fill.
– Also, we’re told that Dany has lost Dorne. Er, no, the Dornish army is still there, and it was established that Dorne is ferociously anti-Lannister, which is why they were okay with Ellaria’s coup. Just because she and the Sand Snakes are dead would not knock Dorne out of the war. People beyond the main characters exist in the show, something the writers regularly struggle with.
ghost of winterfell,
Exactly.
Bronn laughing right in Dickon’s face once he heard his name won the episode for me!
ACME,
You can’t conquer the Seven Kingdoms without fighting anybody.
And the smallfolk of Westeros were last seen cheering for Cersei after she nuked the Sept of Baelor, so the idea that Dany has anything to gain by not using her dragons seems dubious. It’s not hurting Cersei, so why would using the dragons against military targets be a problem? The smallfolk are sheeple who cheer for whoever wins.
Tarly said something about “the gold being safely through the gates of King’s Landing”. Memory only, not rewatching, but I see several others on Twitter remembering the same comment. My take was that the march back had stragglers, and Tarly/Lannister sent the gold on ahead with the faster wagons and horses.
It is somewhat problematic to me story-wise, because they just had Nestoris foreshadowing about everything being good once the gold arrives, and usually that sort of assumption ends up turning back on people.
kathy,
Wat. You’re talking about child abuse. The reason that it’s wrong is that an adult is using their power over a child (who cannot consent) for their own sexual gratification. Jon while technically Dany’s nephew, is actually older than her so none of these issues apply. They are both adults with prior sexual experience, and they didn’t even grow up together, nor knew they were related (so cultural taboo against incest in general does not even apply).
The only problem with this situation would be potential for genetic issues. That’s not a thing that Westeros even knows about, nor is it as big a deal as you’d think (source: geneticist talking).
viki,
No, but she is going to kill Littlefinger.
Giving the dagger is a build-up for that.
Lesson learned from Robin Hood, the bad guy should never give anyone a dagger.
Because consent doesn’t enter into it at all?
Untrue. Avuncular marriage was not unheard of amongst the European nobility. The Spanish Habsburgs, in particular, did it a lot.
Miss Stark,
No not Sansa, Littlefinger.
Mike B,
Whoops. Randyll Tarly.
Lol,
Thing is though the head-on attack broke the Spear formation allowing the Dothraki in
Don’t really expect Dany to understand military tactics or the best way to pilot an A-10 Warthog though tbh
Should have thought twice about burning the supplies
Meera Reed will be back, they have hinted at the inevitable appearance of Howland Reed, best way to introduce new characters is via established ones, eg Randyll and Dickon via Sam, Doran and Areo via Ellaria etc and Oberyn via Tyrion etc etc etc and so we’ll have young Howland Reed introduced via Bran and young Ned, and old Howland Reed introduced via Meera
I loved the Ned/Varys scenes in the black cells in season one, and it would be great to see Varys interact with the younger Stark most like Ned.
BEST EPISODE IN THE ENTIRE SERIES!!! It had EVERYTHING. Great dialogue, Great acting, great sequences, emotion, and the most beautiful battle of the show so far! Okay, i waited to sit down and digest because 7×04 is the most beautiful thing i saw in my life!!! Dany and Drogon Vs Jaime and the Lannisters soldiers was so much better than Battlee of The Bastards and Hardhome united!! This episode will win EVERYTHING at the emmys! I have no doubt!! Dany entering on Drogon was fucking breathtaking. “Be a dragon” She really took Olenna’s advice to heart. In a way, Olenna got some revenge this episode as her words were part of inspiration for Dany.
DANY AND DROGON WIN THIS SO MUCH!! The end will have me dying for years!! The way Drogon saved his mom..omg! This needs to be seen in the theathers, im IMAX!!! That’s why ladies and gentleman, this is the best show on television!!!!
Inga,
Dany is not being “quite crazy with her knee-bending idee fixe”. It’s simple. Jon needs her help. Dany didn’t saw what we saw and the Night King. The white walkers aren’t like dragons. people always knew dragons existed, now WW were a a myth for so long. Dany said that she fights for the North, if Jon bend the knee because she needs to make sure she won’t be betrayed by the North later. This is war, and she was already betrayed before.
Hello all. Can someone remind me, wasn’t Littlefinger at Harranhall negotiating with Tywin Lannister when Arya was there as cupbearer and she served them wine whilst they talked? I can’t recall the discussion and can’t rewatch just now. Just wondering if she knows more than she’s letting on after that long look tonight.
Loved the episode. Wish there were more character interactions and slow builds like the early days, but without the book dialogue it feels like they are struggling (or over it).
Ghost’s Lunch,
I really liked his laughter at Dickon’s name.
Man… The Lannisters had Thor on their side and still couldn’t win.
Chill Pill,
Thank you! People just want to hate Dany. I am not sure of the reasons. They just want her to become her Father.
Frostball,
I actually think she’s jealous of Arya and her skills. She can look after herself and she was not able to do that.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I can get behind the Sansa jealousy angle.
When Arya hugged Bran it looks like Bran’s hand on Arya’s back showing he hugged her but not Sansa.
Not sure if that is just looking into it to much or if that means something.
Thi Targaryen,
And Dany has been banging on about reclaiming the throne since season 1, if she dropped the idea of demanding fealty too quickly, people would be moaning on about that…
DireWoof,
He was talking to Tywin about the Tyrell alliance proposal.
That isn’t some big secret that Arya could expose. Sansa already knows about that; she was literally in the audience when he got his reward for it. And everyone knows that he was in the Lannister cabinet.
Giocrypt,
Absolutely agree. They’ll hook up but my theory is Jon will betray Dany for love, with whom…well.
TheRealwolf,
The hate grows louder the closer a potential hook-up with Jon becomes.
People are also being naive on Dany using her dragons to burn people. Until last nights battle the fact that she had Dragons was just word of mouth. Now people and leaders in Westeros KNOW what her dragons can do. That should make any battles going forward a lot easier…
There’s a lot of prattle about how Dany is evil because she killed so many people with dragonfire. How many of the same people objected to Arya wiping out the Freys with poison?
Olenna put it best. You do what you have to do for your family. It is not that Dany WANTS to roast the Lannister army. In the previews, she allows them to join her…except for those who wish to die. Great recruiting tool! And one used regularly in the Middle Ages and a couple of centuries beyond.
If you’re fighting a battle, some soldiers will die. If Dany had done nothing, a lot of her own followers, far more than was actually the case, would have died. Instead, the Lannister army was shattered.
Patton said a soldier’s job was not to die but to make the other fellow die. Well, she destroyed the Lannisters. Does it matter if it’s done with a sword, a spear, or fire?
Strategically it was brilliant. While Dany has lost her allies, Cersei has lost her army. She still has Euron but he’s on ships and they’re fighting on a single continent. She now need Essos mercenaries. Remember about one or two episodes ago when she rallied people by saying that Dany was bringing people from Essos?
Cersei is now in trouble. Not as much as if the gold was taken. The bank will be happy. Of course, if Cersei loses (which will probably mean her death0 the bank is likely to have more than a bit of trouble.
But the sides have been greatly evened up. I would guess that Jaime and Bronn will get back to King’s Landing.
I think the next episode will be a talkie one. There is supposed (based on interviews, not leaks) to be a really big one. But we have to get Samwell back and others who will join Jon. I would guess we’ll meet up with Gendry next week as well. I wonder if he and Arya will meet then. That would be nice although I would guess there might be more focus on a Jon/Arya meeting.
As for Dany’s demand that Jon bend a knee before she comes to fight, remember she’s giving him the dragonstone. He’s asking for help for his people. She might be pushing it a bit but generally there is a trade-off. I would guess that eventually there might be a bended knee at Winterfell with a couple of dragons present and an army coming. That should help convince the people.
I think (hope) Meera will be back at Winterfell as her family goes there for protection.
Haha. Maybe I have a dirty mind but I keep thinking this is how it will actually happen. So much setup for it. He’ll “bend the knee” all right and that will be the payoff.
Watched it with captions that’s what Tarley says, totally missed that.
Hmm , that is interesting.
Seems they lost the entire Lannister army. Wonder if Cersei will give it to Tycho when she hears about the loss?
Sean C.,
Thanks 🙂
I never got around to my rewatch before this season and sleep deprivation does strange things to memory… I guess I’ll just have to hope for a bran vision reveal for littlefinger to get his comeuppance.
TheRealwolf,
Indeed. All the more ridiculous considering nearly everyone in this series is a killer. Jon, Arya, Sansa all of them have killed plenty of their enemies. But its only ever Deanerys that gets tagged with the ‘evil’ word.
Where were the complaints when the Stark direwolves would rip into necks and flesh of men?
BigMac,
With Dickon, he is Sam’s brother. He wasn’t cruel to Sam like his father. Sam had good banter with Dickon at dinner about the hunt. Dickon seemed pleasant to Sam at dinner. He didn’t believe in white walkers, but who would in the south. We knew from that dinner scene how talented a hunter Dickon was, so he has skills. He shows similar traits to Sam with bravery and loyalty. He’s just naive in many ways, since he hasn’t been out of the castle much other than hunting….
Evi,
No.
It will happen in the books and is quite clearly essential to the final act of this saga, which is the reason the writers are desperately trying to get it going in a short amount of time.
No one is their right mind would write a relationship in five or six episodes like this which is going to be something substantial. Look how long it’s taken for the audience to empathise with Jorah’s love for Dany? These things take time.
The only reason D&D have even done this is because they know how this story is going to end and they’re quickly developing what in normal circumstances should be a very deep and meaningful romance that would require a lot of substantial character development and scenes.
That means we have to accept ‘Jonaerys’ as something a bit more serious than simple fan service. It’s supposed to mean something as this saga comes to an end and have an important impact on the outcome of that ending.
Now Martin has said the end will be ‘bitter sweet’ and if that applies to this central romance, that means it will give us something we and the characters would want, but at a cost.
A good theory for that is that Jon and Dany will have a child. Now Dany is not supposed to be able to bare children but that ‘loss’ for her was the price she paid for her other ‘children’. It is my belief that because blood magic brought the dragons back and because blood magic always carries a blood price, the ‘children’ must die before she can have her own children.
This child who is born of this union will be the ‘sweet’, but I believe the dragons and at least one of the parents will die and that will be the ‘bitter’ part.
As for the issue around their being related, I think audiences are moralising here. Ask yourself how much Martin would avoid two main characters falling in love who are related or would want to impose 21st century values on that relationship to satisfy us. Martin deserves a lot of respect for really challenging us in his novels by asking us to accept values from a world that we no longer live in. Good on him and I hope D & D continue to show the courage to remain faithful to his vision.
I would much prefer that the writers had the guts to show that this romance has next to no affect on either character at all in terms of their feelings for one another – as a big fuck you to the prudes watching who can’t get over the fact that a nephew and auntie could actually fall in love and that might be a positive thing and be seen as almost completely normal is other cultural contexts. Get over it for goodness sake.
excuse me, of course many viewers are rooting for Dany. She restricted her actions to military-only targets, which is a pretty respectable move for someone who could easily just annihilate Cersei whenever she felt like it, if she was OK with massive civilian casualties. She took Olenna’s advice to heart. “Be a dragon”. In a way, Olenna got some revenge this episode as her words were part of inspiration for Dany. Tyrion just had bad and crap advices so far, and this is war. Of course Dany will fight back. Fire and blood. But she didn’t burn castles and cities or civilians. She rode alone with Drogon and a hoard of Dothraki and took them out! And it was FANTASTIC!
And Dany and Jon are 100% happening. With all the parallels from season 1 till now with their characters, they’re actual equals, and both have LITERALLY met their match. They will be together. D & D already confirmed the obvious: The attraction is there from both parts.
Yeah I think this issue of the whereabouts of the gold confused many. Maybe they’ll replay the dialogue saying it made it to King’s Landing in next episode’s Previously On to clarify.
Frostball,
Yes I agree “Also one of my favorite quotes was undeniably Bran’s line about the dagger: “The dagger that is meant to kill me.” I wonder how much foreshadowing there is in the episodes about this, even if only a theory? Suspicious…”
It is going to kill him! Or he would have said “The dagger that WAS meant to kill me”. He is three eyed now. Then he hands it to the person who will kill him. His sister Arya. I predict Bran turns and Arya kills him – way to many hints at that this ep!
kathy,
Papal Dispensation was often given in order to get around the consanguinity issue; Infante John, Constable of Portugal and his half-niece, Isabel of Barcelos (1424)
Afonso V of Portugal and his niece, Joanna Of Castile (second wife) (1475)
Jacques of Savoy, Count of Romont and his niece, Marie of Luxembourg, Countess of Vendôme (1484)
Joanna of Naples and her nephew, King Ferdinand II of Naples (1496)
Ferdinand II of Aragon and his half-grandniece, Germaine of Foix (second wife) (1505)
Philip II of Spain and his niece, Anna of Austria (fourth wife) (1570)
Exactly. she is perfectly respectable and reasonable. Dany can’t shelve her entire life’s mission statement on the drop of a dime just because someone brings news of a bad omen.
We know of Jon’s exploits and heart, but to assume Dany knows his journey (even based on Tyrion’s admiration) is totally not fair. J
The three-eyed raven is the ultimate greenseer, meaning he has prophetic dreams. I am not sure if he can see the future the same way he sees the past and present, but correctly interpreting the green dreams will help him to predict the future.
BTW, it seems that Jon and Ned also had prophetic dreams in the books, right? And Jojen is introduced as our first greenseer. Are there others? Dany at the Trident, right? And who dreamt about Jaime and Brienne in the sewers of Casterly Rock?
Sean C.,
There is nothing wrong with Daenerys’s decision to attack the Lannister troops nor is there anything fundamentally problematic with her use of the dragons. This behaviour is in no way, shape or form surprising of disturbing coming from a conqueror. Her ancestor Aegon did precisely that and neither I nor anybody else, as far as I am aware, has any issue with it.
However, Daenerys does not wish to be known as “Daenerys the Conqueror”. In her infinite list of titles, there is no reference to anything even remotely conqueror-like. To the contrary, she wants to be identified as a liberator (“breaker of chains”) and miracle-worker (“mother of dragons”). The standards associated with these identities are slightly different and, dare I say, higher than those linked to any run-of-the-mill invader.
I have no problem with the Mother of Dragons making the same decision any other monarch would make, be it burning her enemies to a crisp or refusing to help a foreign nation that offers no reciprocity. But Daenerys’s entourage may be more disappointed…
The Targaryen queen’s followers are not mere advisors, they are believers. To them, she is the messiah, a force of redemption and salvation. Their devotion to her and her cause relies on the belief that she is unique, special, unlike all the other rulers on offer. It is of course silly for no human being can live up to such high expectations but Tyrion, Varys, Missandei and the Unsullied all share the same creed in this regard. If/when Daenerys starts behaving like any other claimant, destroying and murdering whoever dares stand in the way of her invasion, her personal myth (aka the cornerstone of her followers’ loyalty) may get damaged and the consequences of said damage could be severe.
Daenerys still has two treasons to experience; one for love, the other for money. Her aura as a saviour is, I believe, what protects her against potential betrayals at the moment but if said aura falters, then all bets are off.
Grey Worm and Missandei are already setup as each other’s weakness. If their faith in their queen is shaken, could one of them betray Daenerys for the sake of his/her lover ? What of Tyrion and/or Varys ? Even Jon ?
Jaime did.
He rested his head that night on a Weirwood stump. I don’t think we are meant to assume Jaime has any magic.
I need to rewatch the entire battle again, but it seemed to me that she was purposefully cutting off retreat by burning all the wagons along the road when she did that long sweep. The Dothraki were smashing into them from left side at one point and she put down a swathe of fire behind the enemy soldiers. Could be wrong, but that might have been the tactical reason that she burned the supply line.
Violator,
Yes, all of us “prudes” who don’t smile on incest need to “get over it”. Thanks for your wisdom.
You realize that in real life, when brother and sisters/aunts have babies, they don’t make healthy beautiful children, right?
Yeah I noticed this on second watch
More than that right after he mentions “Cersei is on Arya’s list” as Arya and Sansa are awkwardly looking at eachother awkwardly Bran actually pulls out the VS dagger and hands to Arya
Which really struck me as not only silent consent but active encouragement for Arya to go after Cersei at some point
Whereas Sansa speaks of “admiring” Cersei
The Sansa non-hug could be about showing how distant Bran was, in this episode it was achieved with his discussion with Meera. Now he’s been a bit weird since the cave but when talking to Benjen he was still “Bran-ish”
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I missed that bit. That would explain the transport but it still relies so much on offscreen assumptions and time bending. Like no one noticed the hundreds of ships carrying a horde of Dothraki screamers landing on their shores.
Dany won’t react badly. I think on the very contrary. She will love the she will be not longer the last targaryen. Jon don’t give a crap about the throne or to be a king, already showed many times. And it won’t matter if my theory is correct and they will be married soon. Also, i really think their feelings for each toher won’t change after the revelation.
As if its not difficult enough for Jon to explain stuff about the Night King and wight armies, it looks like he’ll be busy next episode trying to convince Dany and her advisors about Bran’s new powers.
Haha, Poor guy.
I do know if they are doing it on purpose but Sansa is becoming the mirror image of her mother on screen.
Rabelais,
I agree. Again, it’s a sort of liberal humanist attitude to events as they unfold which is get sort of grating.
Dany’s personal challenge is not how the best be a ‘revolutionary’ while avoiding blood shed, it’s whether or revolutionary aspirations are realistic in the world she wants to rule in the first place.
It’s not a question of how will she inspire followers while murdering people, but whether she can hope to win this war without taking lives and using force.
The very throne she hopes to take back is made from the swords of people who were killed by her ancestor and he had a very clear objective in mind and burned a lot of people in order to achieve it.
He offered stark choices to his enemies – bend or burn – and yet from this he established a dynasty and created a stable rule.
I see nothing wrong with Dany speaking to those defeated foes and giving them a choice to follow her or die. That choice would be remembered as the act of great monarch who was willing to offer mercy in return for service, rather than the blood thirsty actions of a tyrant.
Edward III spared the lives of the Burghers of Calais who were ordered to leave the city wearing almost nothing and holding the keys to the gates. He said that these men would be ‘at my absolute disposal’. He chose to spare them as a show of power and he is remembered as one of medieval Europe’s greatest monarchs.
Thi Targaryen,
Jon might be a bit tortured by the fact he’s in love with a relative… but whats new, Jon does tortured.
I am surprised that no one is commenting on Jamie’s demise! This was the end of a major player. He was a complicated character with an ever interesting and shifting arch who dies taking with him the secret of Joffrey’s death. RIP Jamie! You played it well
Honestly, I’m loving the debate surrounding Dany and other characters. It just goes to show how complex George RR Martin made these characters. I believe he even mentioned in interviews that these aren’t “black & white” characters. They have flaws, they’re human. All this debating proves that to be true, and it’s realistic. It’s even implied by Jaime when he’s talking to Dickon. Dickon deals with the fact that he killed men he used to hunt with, and Tyrion looks conflicted as well when he sees the battle and the army he once fought with (Battle at Blackwater Bay, etc.).
And Ginevra, yes you’re so right about the prophetic dreams. Dany begins dreaming about dragons as soon as she receives the dragon eggs, and has visions during the still birth. And she sees these prophetic images in the House of the Undying to events that would’ve even occur until the next book. And Jaime dreams of Brienne and himself when he leaves Harrenhal. That dream is what ultimately takes him back to rescue her from the Boltons/ Brave Companions.
Ginevra,
Back in the old days they did call a standing-up illicit quickie a “knee trembler!”
Well if they went through the Dornish Sea, landed in Dorne and went through the Dornish Marches they could quite easily do that unnoticed, Dorne being their allies…
Someone alreayd posted Dany-Jon music song in tumblr and youtube. I will post here later.
Numeric the Wolf,
lol Jaime isn’t dead
Ryan,
To be fair, as products of centuries of intensive inbreeding, both Daenerys and to a lesser extent Jon should have severe health problems. Poor Charles II of Spain was the result of the Habsburgs’ extreme consanguinity and he was far from ok.
George RR Martin seems to have decided that, on Planetos, the only adverse consequence of endogamy is potential insanity. Not medically accurate in the slightest but that is the story’s lore.
I do not understand this issue whatsoever!?
Dany knew that the Lannister were on their way From HG to KL, most certainly along the road since they have pillaged HG. Based on timing she can even estimate where along the route they’ aRe. She takes her dothraki on ships (which tyrion conveniently reminded us still exist) from DS to south part of BW bay (trip of less than a day). Most likely Dany sends an outrider to scout exactly where they are, then head on assault.
Seriously? That’s because he’s not dead.
Ah. So perhaps the CotF or 3ER were pushing that dream into Jaime.
While a few individuals got messed up from the royal incest, that ignores the fact that most of the royals were fine. Incest occasionally causes problems but the majority of the time it’s not a big deal, especially if you occasionally add in some new genes (which they Targs did do).
Worst issue with incest actually is low fertility. Probably explains why Dany mom had like 8 miscarriages between R and V.
Ryan,
Yes, that’s quite alright. You don’t have to thank me.
Incest can be defined in different ways by different cultures and at various times and in various circumstances, it would have been seen as acceptable and even appropriate.
Your reservations about it are all very well meant, I’m sure, but they should have no bearing on this story. The world wasn’t always the same as it is now and your view that incest is ‘wrong’ or disgusting is entirely constructed. Nothing is objectively wrong or right – we just believe it is based on shared cultural beliefs.
Open your mind and challenge yourself by looking at the world with different values.
There’s no way Jaime is dead, way too much dramatic potential for Jaime as a prisoner of his brother and the daughter of the king he killed. Tyrion watched that whole confrontation. He’s gonna send those dothraki he’s with to fish him out.
Ghost’s Lunch,
It could be that Meera convinced Bran to at least act like a person.
Sansa is still probably jealous that Bran went off and became Professor X, Arya became Wolverine, and nothing she perceives as helpful happened to her. She just got married to two people she hated and got raped a bunch of times.
She will eventually realize that her experiences have taught her important skills that will benefit the pack in different ways.
Evi,
Arya’s sword play wasn’t exactly water dancing. If you remember, Syrio told her the proper stance was to stand sideways. Arya looks right at Brienne and almost taunts her. IMO, I think this was a fusion of water dancing and The Waif/blind training. Maybe “Water Waifing” is a better name for it than water dancing. The Waif showed the same skills of dodging and weaving when sparring with Arya. Unlike Podrick, Arya learned her lessons! Her sparring scene with Brienne also made me feel better about how she was able kill The Waif off screen in season 6.
TheRealwolf,
Some just still want to push the “Dany will become mad queen” theory because of her father, and is for sure not happening. We already have a mad queen and that’s Cersei. Dany is not black and white, she is stubborn but can also be sweet, she has the hot temper but can also be calm. She is complex, not easy, and a hero in her own journey. And that’s why she is the best for me. Dany has the ruthlessness of the targaryes, but she is in no way becoming a mad queen. Jon hanged 4 men who betrayed him, including a kid. The Tarlys are doing the same with Dany..so what? Why this is different?
Yep, although if everyone mothers like I do, I can understand the confusion. The moment my girls expressed an interest in their cousins, I threatened them with, “You can’t marry your cousin because you’ll have three-headed babies!!!” They believed that for years and repeated it often. So freaking hilarious. Of course, that would explain how the dragon has three heads.
Yeah, that’s my read, or something less intentional, like the weirwood itself has some inherent magic and it fed off Jaimes memories to tell him what he needed to know.
Sansa should have told Arya about Night King
Ginevra,
Lol, yeah it’s interesting because basically people use a basic understanding of genetics to justify their preexisting cultural beliefs. It’s fine to have anti incest beliefs – cultural beliefs are real and important – but it’s a bit annoying given the science doesn’t actually support the degree of fear people have about it. It’s ok just to say “we just don’t marry our cousins, ok?!”
ACME,
Well, the issue is slightly more intriguing than that.
Targaryens don’t just seem to suffer very little physically as a result of siblings reproducing together, many of them seem more than keen on it.
This is within an Andal culture that still looks on the practice of siblings marrying as an abomination (not aunt and nephew unions by the way!). And yet despite that, plenty of Targaryens were deeply and sexually in love with their own brothers and sisters – even when we’re told their parents DISCOURAGED it, as was the case with Aegon V’s kids.
Now, you could propose an argument that from an evolutionary perspective there are safe guards to make sexual reproduction between those closely related less likely and that in certain circumstances cultural norms have countered these (Egyptian royalty married sibling to sibling for centuries) but marriage in the past was not based on sexual romance and in fact sexual romance wasn’t considered an essential aspect of it so its clear to see why the fact that two people who might not normally want to have sex with one another may enter into a union in which they do.
But with the Targaryens, many of them seem to actually love it – they want that sibling ass. Now that leads me to think there is something more to this ‘keeping the blood of the dragon’ pure than just a cultural norm. Valyrians are slightly ‘supernatural’ in that they are un-commonly beautiful, have silver-blonde hair and purple or lilac eyes. They have some sort of connection with their dragons. Much of this seems to lead to the view that there’s more to being a Valyrian than just riding dragons – there is something different about them, and perhaps that difference leads them to feel attracted to close family members. Maybe this is indeed a way to maintain these supernatural properties they possess.
Is anyone else worried that the giant bolt was barbed and might be poisoned? I’m late to this conversation. Sorry if this is a repeat.
lol, of course will be a real romance between Jon and Dany. It’s already happening. it’s a much deeper relationship than just infatuation. Both of them develop a mutual awe/intrigue, trust, admiration, and respect for one another. the two of them will have a much deeper emotional connection than with any of their past lovers. You could say that now Dany wants something, and Jon wants something, but their interests are clashing and they will be in the big war together. Fighting against the Night King together.
Flayed Potatoes,
To be honest, Sansa is always a dubious character. To me, it really looked like she was jealous. All that acting surviving skills Arya has now..damn..she isn’t just surprised, she looked jealous and LF saw. That’s why he smiled.
Redx,
Hook-up? The series is called A Song Of Ice And Fire. The books has Dany musing about “Ageon” her brother’s son and if he was alive how she can marry him, since he is of same age as her. Their stories are as far as possible.. complete worlds apart… and when I thought about it for the first time.. may be this is a tragic love story … I lost it… while reading books… Dance of Dragons. Plus we Indians, most of the communities marry cousins(I can marry my mother’s brother’s son or My father’s sister’s son but father’s brother’s son is a brother and mother’s sister’s son is a brother). My own grandfather married his niece. SO Dany and Jon never coming together never bothered me nor felt like cheap plot for me in person… Their similarities are uncanny
Frostball,
I loved that scene with Bran and LF. With Arya being a master ninja now and Bran seeing pretty much everything ..past, present and future, i wonder..if he was more smart, he should be running in a horse right now. Of course Bran has a eye on him. And Arya too, of course.
Ah did we all spot the nod to Stannis?
JS: How many men do we have? 10 000? Less?
Davos: Fewer
Thi Targaryen,
Yes.
Reading some comments leads me to think there are going to be some very disappointed people if they carry on in the vain hope than this story isn’t going to end up with a tragic romance between our two main leads.
They just need to get on board the Jonaerys Express before it leaves the station.
Woooo woo!..
How wounded is Drogon by the Arrow hit? , he almost throwed Dany off when the Arrow hit Drogon , though Drogon did alot of damage to the Lannister soldiers hes now wounded , Bronn and the Lannisters showed that Danys dragons not is as Mighty as Dany and her followers Thinks.
Arya was trained by assassins to be a skilled fighter, plus Syrio Forel, and The Faceless men. Not unrealistic, she is a killing machine by this point.
My favorite line of the episode was a small one. When Jamie, Bronn and Rickon were talking about men soiling themselves when the die, and Bronn says: “I learned that when I was five”. To me that one sentence and the way it was said conveyed a ton about Bronn. Great line and well executed.
How did Jaime/Bronn go so deep under the same water they were galloping in?
SnowWolf,
I think what this scene showed is that despite their weaknesses, and Qyburn’s tactics, they’re still the most powerful weapon of war and there isn’t really much to counter them at all.
The psychological impact of this ambush will carry that clear message.
We know Drogon’s alright because the preview shows him on Dragonstone next episode. He’s a big boy!
BranTheBlessed,
Exactly!! They just want to hate her and forget what she has gone through. Most of her abuse happened when she was a kid which was off screen for us all.
Jack Bauer 24,
Lakes can be shallow in parts and deep in others.
Don’t think he’s wounded much at all
I will rewatch but in reading other comments perhaps this “mistake” is also a setup for Jorah to return and be her trusted Westerosi military adviser (which she doesn’t have other than Theon and Jon, sort of).
Also, I believe like others that Danerys felt she had her back to the wall and needed a victory to turn the tide and intimidate the lords of W. The question posed for the next episode is whether triumphant in victory equates to an increasing disposition towards using her dragonpower more liberally.
Jaime has to survive in order to tell cersei that sansa and tyrion did not kill joffrey which may make some kind of negotiation possible (well maybe but perhaps cersei has to die first).
For those who are comcerned about the compression of jon/dany narrative my own take is that with only an outline of the ending, D and D don’t have the source material to make this feel true and are leaving it to GRRM.
By the way, did Randall Tarly bite it or was i imagining him getting burned and maybe surviving by immersing himself in water?
Jack Bauer 24,
I’ve been in lakes and rivers where the bottom drops off fairly precipitously. This was exaggerated a bit for sure but it’s a television show.
Magnificent is the only world I can use to describe this episode.
That dragon battle sequence was 20 years in the making, from the final chapter in “A Game of Thrones” and it lived up to the hype.
Thanks D&D.
Nitpicking no longer allowed.
Jack Bauer 24,
Because its a TV show.
Mario,
🐲🍑
Boojam,
For real!
Evi,
Please. War is awful. What should she do just continue to lose without bringing out her trump cards? Not to mention she only went after legitimate military targets. I seem to remember the Lannisters being so cruel in the riverlands that they spawned an insugency. So please take that stuff back to what ever make believe land where wars are nice and people don’t die in horrible ways.
Agree,
She will have presumably developed excellent political skills
In the books she’s showing a fledgeling ability to convince people to do her bidding (she was able to get Jon to do this last season), which is why I find any reunion between her and the Hound fascinating but in the Alayne TWOW chapter she seems to be bending Harry the Heir as well as having Sweetrobin in her pocket which by extension means the power projection of the Vale
One thing irritates me about the criticism of Sansa, and that is that she is somehow inferior or not a “strong woman” because she isn’t “stabby” enough and is lesser than Brienne and Arya who as Tomboys are somehow “strong women” but it needs to be understood that like Lady Catelyn as the epitome of a Lady Sansa can hold a lot of influence in that a lot of men will see her as a Matornly Mother figure of sorts and so do her bidding, eg historical figure that comes to mind is Elizabeth 1 who was seen as a kind of Matron of England
I reckon she’ll take a dark direction in the books though and be focused around Harrenhall
Violator,
Regarding the scorpion, I think Dany has already found its weakness. It is made of wood! and I believe I saw Drogon torch it after being hit. So, in the future, Dany just needs a scout to find the location of the Scorpion and she sends a dragon from behind to torch it. It’s not very maneuverable and it takes a long time to load. You can’t just spin around quickly. The surprise factor is out of the bag, so Dany’s army should be looking for it next time and approach it from behind.
Thi Targaryen,
Exactly! It’s much more of a treason to betray your liege lords. Plus Tyrells and Dornish are the last to bow to Robert. Tarlys Even fought Robert hard and now They switch sides, betray liege lords and everyone says Dany is evil.
Great episode, loved every minute of it. So there will be 3 Valaryian blades hopefully in the North for the WW fight – Jon, Brienne and now Arya. All I want is to see them fighting Walkers now.
Arya and Brienne was perfect and I do like how she wasn’t blocking Brienne but parrying. Solid stuff. I wonder if it will ever come up that Podrick is related to Ilyn Payne?
So Dany went in between Olenna and Jon/Tyrion advice? Didn’t burn castles, but reminded everyone she is a fooking Dragon. The Dracarys bothers me a bit, for some reason it reminds me of Harry Potter yelling expelliramus. Hear it too often during big moments. In the books is Dany more a Warg? I can’t recall if she calls it out there.
I could nitpick some things, but screw it. I’ve been waiting too long to see some of this stuff, I’m just here for the ride now.
Seeing Drogon had me thinking of all the good dragon fights I’ve had in games; Skyrim, Witcher 2, Dragons Dogma. But Jaime is no Geralt of Rivia or Dovahkiin.
Why does Dany say ‘bend the knee’ in such a threatening way?
“BEND the knee!”
I mean, she’s always demanding it.
“Dany, will you make us a cuppa tea?”
“Yes, but first you must BEND the knee“.
“Dany, can have a lift, love?”
“I will consider your request, but first you must BEND the knee.”
If she said it it in a more melodic way then perhaps people would respond to her better?
“Will you beeend the kneeee if you pleeeeease!”
Something you can hum.
Jack Bauer 24,
Rivers do weird stuff like go from shallow enough to get your canoe stuck to 14+ foot deep within the same bend depending on the current. I’d be more concerned with the water being that clear/blue in a river than the depth suddenly dropping off.
Forgot to add, the Blackfish deciding to die pointlessly was a real lost opportunity, eg if he had escaped and gone to Sansa along with some renegade Tully’s, Sansa would have had her own form of power projection
RL would have (and will in the books IMO) really rally behind her given she is very much “Lady Cats daughter” and Tully’s red hair etc
They could have had an arc based around Sansa getting the BF to fill the vacuum of Freys death to once again re-take Riverrun with the help of RL Lords. This would justify a southward Cersei-oriented concern ala her talk with Jon and given the proximity to KL and Lannister troops (Ed Sheeran and pals) in the RL and it would only have required a CR or HG style montage to accomplish…
Hey it’s better than the complete vacuum we have now re RL and Dorne…
Mike B,
Yes and for one thing Jamie was galloping along the very edge, then got bundled at speed into the water, so although a bit of artistic license is required it’s not as if it was a puddle he fell into!
Ghost’s Lunch,
Yes politically Sansa is probably the only person in the north that could broker a deal with the south.
I wonder if the show telling us of the admiration Sansa has for Cersei will mean she will have an important role in getting the Lannisters on their side against the zombies.
Maybe Cersei sees how well Sansa is maneuvering politically and gets almost a motherly sense of pride in helping her along that path.
And no I don’t think in that scenario that Sansa would be the younger more beautiful from the prophecy.
Mawk,
Not just the Ilyn Paine connection but the fact he’s been able to waltz around the North in light Lannister armour for a while now is also a point of question…
Sunfyre,
Me too. Used to go swimming in a lake when I was younger that went about knee deep around the edge and then suddenly dropped off completely, straight down to somewhere between about 15-30 feet. There were signs warning of the sudden depth change.
Missandei “If I may, your name is Jon Snow but your father’s name was Ned Stark.”
Jon “I’m a bastard.”
Fucking too right. He’s never bought a round in his life.
LOL at people blaming D&D for Jonerys. That has been hinted at in the books since ACOK. Jon is in the “bride of fire” visions in the House of the Undying. And spare me the incest moralizing. This isn’t real life. The two didn’t know each other and have no idea of their relation. They are consenting adults. And in GRRM’s world, the only side effect of inbreeding seems to be the possibility of insanity.
Is it too cliche? That depends on the manner of how it happens. I think a happy ending is not going to happen. This relationship is bound to end in tragedy, IMO.
Mawk,
Harry Potter yelling expelliramus.
This is all I will think about now when she yells it😂
So, just for clarification…
Did the Highgarden gold make it to KL before the Tarly/Lannister army? Hmmm. I would assume that at least half the army went with the gold and the other half was with the grain, right? Then Dany came in and burned the grain convoy. Hmmm. Did she get anything, other than a few key hostages and converts, from this raid?
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed the sequence (especially Bronn doing his killer arrow thing a la Blackwater!) but I’m feeling that the end result was bittersweet for Dany’s side. Of course, neither side is eating now!
(Posting in sections because of issues)
Arya and her mad dodge and evade skills and confidence! Also, great to see the Starks deliciously awkward together again. Meera didn’t deserve that bland farewell but Bran is trying to see the forest for the trees. Actually, I am concerned for him…his protector left him and he gave his only weapon away. He’s even freaking LF out!
Another question…many believe that the dagger will be used to stab the NK, but shouldn’t the goal be to remove the obsidian from the NK’s chest?
Dany got an awesome history lesson in the cave but, sheesh (!), all she wanted was for Jon to bend the knee? Anyway, I’m glad she finally decided to get some flying in and “be a dragon”! QoT’s advice lives on! But it’s a fine line between power and madness that she rides!
I’m thinking that the Iron Bank will get its money but something will happen to that money (and Tycho) while crossing the Narrow Sea.
I stood up often during this episode. Bravo Matt Shakman! Another round with him next week!
First time posting (long time silent reader, lol): Is it just me or has anyone else noticed Arya’s wearing her hair just like Jon Snow’s? I’m currently reading A Clash of Kings (yes, late to the party) and enjoying both the show and the book. I’ve learned a lot about both reading post and responses here.
So, I know they lost many men at the BOTB, but they didn’t lose many of the Knights of the Vale, and I believe I remember there were about 30,000 of them? And after the victory, Jon reunited the North. The Umbers and Kastarks are now again part of Jon’s team. I do realize that thousands were lost at the BOTB. It seems to me like the North’s army should be closer to 50,000 than 10,000 including the Knights of the Vale.
I really liked the fact that they had Tyrion there during the battle to reinforce the fact that we’re not supposed to be just blindly delighting in the slaughter of the Lannister/Tarly soldiers.
We had that scene in Episode 1 between Arya and the Lannister soldiers to humanise them somewhat. And now they had Tyrion overlooking this massacre, effectively viewing things from the viewers’ perspective; his loyalties torn.
We’re meant to be conflicted.
And I really liked how they made things come full circle almost. Jaime killed the Mad King because he was going to burn innocent people alive. And now we see him charging down the Mad King’s daughter, having winced at the sight of hundreds of men she’s burnt alive dissolving to ashes and screaming in agony.
Apart from being an incredible spectacle it was also full of deeper meaning.
Hodors Bastard,
shouldn’t the goal be to remove the obsidian from the NK’s chest?
YES! Sam perfoming the surgery of course.
Yeah they are mighty weapons agree there , but not as mighty as Danys followers thinks , and yes Drogons fire was a clear message to the Lannister soldiers , but as clear was the message to Dany that her dragons could be wounded by there weapons . They are big which makes them to big targets to Qyburns ballistas & you saw how fast Bronn shot those Arrows , if that Arrow had hit Drogons neck there would be a less Dragon for Dany . Yeah he is a big boy , but with a wound of a ballista Arrow my friend .
The Jon/Dany scenes this week were pretty good, but I really have to ask: why is Jon not talking to her about Maester Aemon? He was one of Jon’s biggest influences, he’s somebody Dany would undoubtedly love to learn more about, and it would be another way to try to convince her about the importance of the threat beyond the Wall, because Aemon believed it was the realm’s greatest challenge.
Also, Theon really should have been shown reacting to the death of Ramsay. I know that the show does not have time to depict everybody learning about everything else that has happened, but Ramsay pretty much defined Theon’s time on the show for three whole seasons.
Tron79,
I just assume Jon wasn’t including the Vale in that estimate.
Shaz
Sansa, of course
As for Dany
Seems to be setting up a continuous balancing act between Fire + Blood Dany and Queen Dany, eg she was going to burn Astapor (again) and Yunkai to the ground before Tyrion talked her out of it
Can’t expect her to lose too much before she went apeshit in some capacity, in this case it makes sense to cripple the Army and power projection, eg RW wasn’t just about killing Bran but also about smashing the old Northern Army
Of course if we had proper negotiating with Jon he could have offered up the undamaged Northern Fleet (Manderly’s) in return for Dragonglass and used said fleet to help blockade KL, which paradoxically helps his bargain position with Cersei, eg I’ll lift blockade of KL if you help against WW etc
Better yet if they kept BF alive and rallied him and RL around Sansa, we could have had a plotline where fine, Northerners are preparing for WW’s but RL Lords are engaging Cersei’s northern flank…they can still use this with some of the Vale forces going back south in return for negotiated pledge of Dragon support/protection at Winterfell but I don’t think this will happen…
Budget. They had to have blown most of it in that battle, so we’ll see what we get the rest of the season. Rhaegal and Viserion have never gotten the attention and screen time they deserve. A real shame.
A few thoughts on random bits I have read in the thread so far…
I take Sansa’s a little upset because she has ‘Jan Brady Syndrome’. Jon gets to be KotN, Bran is the 3eyed raven, Arya is now some trained badass fighter, and she is… Sansa, the victim. (I know she has overcome so much, etc, but I feel that is how she is feeling at the moment.)
Bran says he ‘sees everything’ but only fragments. He may or may not know details about Little Finger and the betrayal of Ned.
Clearly Jamie isn’t dead. Only because I doubt we would have a last-split-second-superman-rescue to drown him with the same effort.
Dany was complaining that the Unsullied were without supplies, the supplies she burned were not in play for them.
And finally @Acme regarding incest causing insanity is ‘not medically accurate’…. really, being brought back to life, or being a friggin WhiteWalker isn’t medically accurate either. Please don’t try to bring the realities modern medicine into our fantasy…. thank you.
Great points and interesting headscratchers. Heck, why isn’t Tyrion mentioning Aemon to her as well? As for Theon, that is a stunning non-mention…maybe later. He is so damaged, mentally and physically, maybe he can’t process that much anymore.
Jack Bauer 24,
Budget? Maybe Rhaegal & Viserion were just “grounded” for bad behavior…..
The Blackfish….hmmm… reminds me Edmure Tully is still a hanging chad …. only 3 e to go.
Oh, another thing
Really like how now that the war has hotted up, Tycho is getting a big role
On top of funding Stannis a few seasons back where he goes from chump of Dragonstone to Wildling smasher at ze Wall, it is and has been great just to see it adequately portrayed just how important a role financial credit capability can play in engaging in wars and prolonging wars, something the person on the street or front line doesen’t quite always grasp
You want to sleep with your sister/aunt, go right ahead. Don’t expect everyone else to get on board with this idea.
Did they ever say his name on the show? I missed that.
kathy,
Targaryens married their brothers and sisters to keep their blood “pure.” I’m pretty sure that marrying someone you don’t even know is your relative will not be that much of a problem in their world.
The Dothraki stunts were more impressive to me than Drogon (which was excellent).
The jumping and archery from horseback looked great. The fire suits earned their paychecks too.
I loved the Bran scene with LF. Not so much Bran and Meera. Bran was a jerk but the original jerk (looking at you HR) needs to get off his couch and invest some emotionality already.
Brienne finally has something do!
The cave paintings were a lil ancient aliens-y in a good way🗿👽
I thought Jaime’s ride for glory was pitch perfect. Still, is too much for him to be a captive again? I don’t see him drowing (too many people saw him fall in) and I don’t see Daenerys executing with Tyrion around? Maybe we get an LSH/Brienne situation between Tyrion Daenerys and Jaime.
I wanted Bronn gone (too much Tyene shipping) but he’s too much fun not to have around. Still, ready for Jorah to go though.
Dickon is surprisingly a nice addition.
Someone give Theon a bow and dragonglass points so we can get his redemption going already.
They were. They were chained up for almost 2 seasons. From 410-609. They have only really been featured once and that was in 609.
RIP Blackfish. You had so much plot left to give.
I reckon half the Lannister Army was already in KL escorting the Gold, half would have stayed back to collect and escort Grain supplies and there seemed to be talk of stragglers and of course there’s some in RL
One thing struck me, the soldiers taking the farmers food/wealth was no different to the Hound mugging that farmer – just on a larger scale – so there’s a real issue that even without WW’s there no harvest for the southern population let alone Army now that Dany has burned it (and one wonders aloud if inbetween the coast and the battle scene the Dothraki horde pillaged any of the land…)
Indeed listening to Sansa at the very start of Arya/Brienne scene, she is talking of “if they haven’t brought enough food they’ll have eat what they brought” whatever that means (Vale troops) on top of the talk last week so I reckon there may be a common theme developing North and South
Indeed even the Westerlands, eg Jaimie mentioned they deliberately emptied the Casterly Rock larder so the Unsullied couldn’t stay long
This… plus the fact that Sansa’s focus has been on Cersei. Suddenly, her little sister is there with Cersei at the top of her kill list and the skills to actually take her out.
I was actually quite surprised at the focus on Dickon Tarly this episode, if Randyll has died off-screen during the battle Harald Karstark style he may be the stand-in Lord character for the Reach, eg if he may be the talking actor that defects (back to) Dany post field of fire 2.0 then it may be symbolic of the Reach re-defecting to Dany? – Which is more than a few converts, especially if Tyrion gets a sizeable amount of Lannister soldiers falling in behind him as Dany’s Lannister Lord of Casterly Rock, eg though a smashed force they can march back through Westerlands, re-garrison Casterly Rock and re-fit while the battle fresh Unsullied can be re-deployed
Anyway I am thinking there is more to come from Sam, Dickon and Heartsbane…
Could someone clarify something for me? If a monarch is deposed, surely their offspring are no longer “rightful” heirs as Dany is constantly claiming. The 7 kingdoms were forced into a unified country through conquest only a few hundred years before. In that time, Targaryan rule hadn’t been exactly peaceful with uprisings etc. Quite rightly, Aerys is overthrown as he was an awful king. As the nation was formed through conquest, surely this forceful takeover then signifies a formal switching of ruling house? Aerys’ descendants are no longer rightful heirs. In the books only about 16/17 years have passed, but in the show it’s much longer. I can understand why Dany considers herself the true ruler, but in terms of expecting everyone else to shrug and agree to her claim is a bit short-sighted and the way in which she is doggedly insisting on Jon bending the knee to her is a little grating. Jon might equally turn around and say he is a descendent of the last deposed King in the North (as she is a descendent of the last deposed Targaryen King) and therefore has an equal claim to sovereignty as she does. I guess this has bothered me for a while now, as the whole kingdom was born through conquest (historically a short while ago), which ties in well to the fact that the throne was taken through rebellion/revolution – to me that would make Robert’s rule as legitimate as Aegon’s. By the same rules, Dany would be legitimate through retaking the 7 kingdoms through conquest, but enough already of this “rightful heir” business. It really winds me up 🙂 and I like Dany!
Ginevra,
I’ve known what Dany is capable since the first season when she allowed Drogo to kill her brother in front of her without a peep from her, except to say he was not a dragon. I mean, Viserys was an ass but she gave the impression that he was not always nasty to her, that there had been true brotherly moments with him. She was not going to be able to prevent his death but the girl could have at least tried. Especially knowing there were the only two Targs left. Then seasons later Dany once again confirmed that she can be monstrously ruthless when she crucified the masters, not knowing or caring if there were innocents among them.
Dany is not Cersei or Euron and definitely not Ramsay but despite her often good intentions, she has shown plenty of times tendencies that would make mad Aerys proud. I think they warned us of this early on.
Long time lurker first time poster.
I have seen no postings re the comment by Cersei being in talks with the Sell Swords to return something to her. Am speculating this could be Sansa? Littlefingers first appearance in E4 was in the raven’s rookery. Was he sending a note to Cersei? Reading old messages? Both? When he last saw Cersei he had told her that Sansa was kidnapped by the Boltons and taken north. He has always played both sides and could be doing so now. Many think he is idly lurking and has no further part to play but I believe he will reemerge in future episodes. He is doing something off camera- studying and learning the North and all the players. The North has always been misunderstood in the South and Littlefinger is figuring it out, adding to his knowledge. I also think the Karstark girl looks too much like Sansa to be a coincidence.
I was thinking of how fast Grey Worm and the Unsullied could march to Dany , there isnt enough with supplies at Casterly Rock for them to hold the Lannister castle , so i just see that they must turn there back to the Rock if there is no supplies , the Unsullied is about 8000 and they must march the land way that would not go that fast , if they not are as fast as the Dothraki of course .
Just so. I’ve said before that ‘the North’ and its Lords are more like medieval Scotland, in some ways, than like the England of the Wars of the Roses. This is from the Declaration of Arbroath (1320, in translation), about Robert Bruce:
“Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule.
“It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom – for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.”
If he bent the knee, at this stage, the Lords of the North would choose another KitN.
Interesting. I can’t imagine the Dothraki being all that civil. Then again, who knows how far they had to ride to get to the battle? I assume it was meant to be within a reasonable proximity of KL. Did you observe Tyrion’s uncomfortable look? He saw his people being slaughtered and the supplies burning. I wonder if he will mention the recklessness to Dany, who did the unnecessary convoy burning.
Hahaha 😀 😀 😀
Would you kindly bend the knee?
Che,
It’s hard to say what “Westeros Rules” are but in real history, in the Wars of the Roses, the rightful king Henry VI was deposed by Edward IV ( Henry VIs son was no longer the heir but still would claim he was the legitimate Crown Prince), and Henry VI later restored to the throne after Edward IV was defeated in battle. Edward IV then reclaimed the throne, had Henry VI and his son quietly disposed ofthen after his death Richard III took the throne when Edward IVs sons the Princes in the Tower were strictly speaking the surviving rightful heirs.
The along came Henry VII (Tudor) who had an exceedingly tenuous claim and killed Richard III. There is a much debate about who killed the Princes in the Tower because both Richard III and Henry VII had motive. But either way it was certainly expedient to remove completely any possible alternative heirs and any threat of armies rising behind their banner. In the end bloodline and birthright may become irrelevant if you had enough military strength to proclaim yourself rightful heir and win the crown.
I think this has very clear parallels with the Targaryen/Baratheon situation, as GRRM would acknowledge.
Well written , my thoughts is the same , Cersei is seen as the cold and ruthless , but Dany has shown that as you write could do Cold things also , as the thing she did with the masters , with not even care if there was some of them that spoke against this deed to these wimen , Dany did the same thing as them which means that she do not show that shes not as Cold as the masters . So Dany could be truly cold , Dany also demand people to bow for her whos trust she not earned , i dont Think that is the right way to go for miss Targaryen .
Markus Stark,
We dont know what Dany and Jon discussed as they were walking back outside before they met Varys and Tyrion. I know you want to see everything on screen but all they are illustrating is Dany still wants Jon to recognize her.
Criticizing her riding style of Drogon or her garb… a little overly nitpicky frankly.
Chill Pill,
Jon is beholden to his people. He was elected, he didn’t just walked into Winterfell and called himself King and expected everyone to bend the knee to him. The Northerners lay their swords before him and “asked” him (left him little choice to be honest) to lead and if you did not notice, every meeting since then has involved those same lords having a say in whatever items are discussed. Jon is not a dictator, he may have final word when he chooses to have final word but he won’t decide anything unless he has run it down by his vessels and by the Starks. So you can’t blame him for being reluctant to bend the knee without providing a voice to his people. Granted he already knows what his people think of Southerners and even worse Dragons. And you can’t say they are wrong. The Starks almost perished due to Rhaegar and Aerys.
Had Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon not backed Ned, the Starks would have been killed off. I understand the need to let that go and I suspect Jon will eventually but if we measure who is in the wrong here, despite looking at all perspectives, it is still Daenerys. Jon isn’t just asking help for the survival of his people, of the North, he is asking help for the survival of humanity. Is not like the Night’s King will say “hey, we got the North. Let’s stop here. No need to go bother Daenerys Targaryen, we can share Westeros.” I understand what Dany has, I understand that she has the upper hand in all of this and it is likely that she will eventually get what she wants out of Jon. But from other Lords’ perspectives, what gives her the right to demand anything from them? She is no Queen of Westeros, she may want to be and but she currently is not. The Targaryens were ousted two decades ago.
This is totally irrelevant. You’re talking about sexual abuse and rape. It’s a consent issue, more than an incest issue.
It may gross you out, but the reality is that consensual incest exists.
If Jon and Dany were to fuck right now, it would be consensual incest, and accidental as well, since they don’t even know they’re related. In other words, it’s not morally objectionable at all, and they wouldn’t be hurting anyone.
Che,
Well it depends. Deposing a king in itself is a fairly controversial issue.
We take it for granted now when read history, but one has to under stand how monarchy was bound up very closely with the Church.
The king was considered to be anointed by God and answerable to only God Himself. You didn’t just dispose a king as that would be seen as a complete violation of the natural order of things.
It’s called Divine right to rule – Kings acquire their absolute sovereignty from God.
Now we know that Aegon and the realm dates the Targaryen rule from when he was crowned by the High Septon in Old Town. That means that there is a religious dimension to the kingship, although not as pronounced as in European history.
So for that reason, a supporter of the Targaryens could simply dismiss the entire concept of being ‘deposed’. As far as they and perhaps many others see it, the Targaryens were given the blessing of the Seven and the rule of the kingdom. To remove them is a crime against the gods.
What are those mountains supposed to be on the battlefield?
Budget ….Smudg-it … HBO has a war chest full now and are a-feared of what happens when GoT ends! No budget problems these days.
Yes!
Watched it again and spent more time thinking about things (and sniffling, smiling about Starks in Winterfell)
What was great:
Arya leveled up to her endgame character/abilities. Her outfit, the way she speaks and stands and carefully watches people (oh and never lies, did you notice?) Maisie is killing it. And Brienne sparring was the best!
LF-I thought this was very interesting for him. He was trying to work him, but he kept calling him Brandon instead of Bran (which reminded me he hated the other Brandon connected to Cat) then after chaos scare he called him Lord Stark (which is what he called the man he betrayed) He clearly did something with either Luwin’s copies of old letters or sent a message via ravens-his face made that obvious. Also looked like he was forming a plan when he saw Arya fight and kept looking over at Sansa. (a way to get rid of Brienne? A way to get under Sansa’s skin?)
I’m abnormally excited about him finally getting some payback ie death by Stark. Hope it’s soon.
Sansa-said it last night-as a person who has never liked her character? This is the best version of Sansa. Her smile when she sees Arya, smile when Bran and Arya hug-she looks maternal. Loving. Her concern about LF messing with Bran and her concern when she realizes Arya almost went to kill Cersei. All that felt genuine.
(also everyone is talking about food for winter this episode-that can’t bode well)
Jon‘s caves-first of all, Jon in caves w/ a woman *wink* But also-those caves! And his conversations this episode were fantastic. I love all the references to last Long Night. And his advice: He’s mentioning people not power and glory. He’s just such a good guy-
Davos is surprisingly cheerful for the end of the world, but I love it. Someone needs to be right? Also? It might be time for Tyrion to start drinking again.
Tyrion was giving great facial expression during the field of fire. So torn and worried about Jaime. He loves his brother.
Drogon is lit. Get it? Ha. No seriously stunning visuals there.
My Issues
I wish Dany would stop ruining the magic with “bend the knee”. Super buzzkill and makes her sound twelve tbh. Even Stannis was smoother than this. Everything else is great but bend the knee, bend the knee just adds to her whole bloodthirsty Targ vibe. I like her better when she’s freeing slaves and caring about things.
Jon and Theon felt like huge missed opportunity for expediency. Those two have history. A lot of it. I feel like we should have had more than “You’re only alive because of Sansa” Even a punch or two from restrained Jon would have been good. Maybe Theon reacting to Ramsay’s defeat and death.
Meera-man, she has really been given the shaft in this series. She goes with her brother-knowing he’s already seen his own death. Protects Bran. Drags Bran through the snow and away from harm while everyone else dies around her. Eats only moss and rabbit blood for years. Then comes back and no one gives her a bath, new clothes, their appreciation-and Bran gives her no emotion. She’s a hero and I hope we see her again.
Markus Stark,
I for one think many of us are denied a sexy aunt or nephew so I oppose this union out of jealousy.
Arya needs to give credit where credit is due. She was taught by Syrio “fucking” Forel, First Sword of Bravos!
Enough of the ‘no one’ BS.
Seeing her giving him that look made me remember of the game she played in The House of Black and White with The Waif and Jaqen. The one where you learn to lie and to tell when someone is lying to you. There was more than basic distrust of LF in that look.
Regarding Dorne: one can easily imagine it’s engulfed in a succession crisis right now. No legitimate heir to the throne and many bastards running around ( Ellaria said she has 10 000 brothers and sisters ) + they don’t frown upon them down there. Just imagine a third or even a fifth of them laying one claim or another… For the purposes of the show, Dorne should be out of the picture ( finally ) at least until the final standoff with the NK, when all the realms of men better be united.
Ryan,
Ad hominem. Whether I personally want to have sex with my sister is not the issue.
I don’t want you to ‘get on board” with anything. You don’t need to believe that its okay, you just need to accept that just because you don’t think its okay doesn’t mean that it can’t happen, didn’t happen, and people can’t write a story without moralising about it for your personal comfort.
A. The show just doesn’t have the meticulous writing it used to have. I bet D&D didn’t even make the Aemon-Dany connection when they were writing these scenes, or else they would have included some mention of Aemon (especially since he discussed Dany with Sam in Season 5).
They probably didn’t even think of it, just like they didn’t think about Rickon when writing the Arya scenes this week.
B. As for Theon and Ramsay, I’ve always felt that they robbed Theon of his story and gave it to Sansa. The Winterfell arc of the fifth book is Theon’s story. In Season 5, the Winterfell arc was unquestionably Sansa’s story, in which Theon was a supporting character.
Theon played no role in Ramsay’s downfall, except helping Sansa escape so that she could do it herself later in the season.
Sansa was Ramsay’s downfall, not Theon. I’m fairly confident the books won’t play out in the same way.
We never got to see Theon actually stand up to Ramsay himself, or do anything directly against him, and I suspect the show is now going to try to have Euron serve as a proxy for Theon to exact justice upon.
Not showing us Theon’s reaction to Ramsay’s demise is just the last step in a long line of steps taken since Season 5 to excise Theon from the Ramsay issue.
C. I have no idea why Jon wouldn’t count the armies of the Vale, but as you say, he obviously wasn’t.
The show has done an extremely poor job at conveying what the Vale’s current status is, just like they’ve generally done an extremely poor job with the politics this year. What the hell is going on in Dorne ? Who the hell is ruling the Riverlands ? Is Jon King of the Vale as well ? None of these questions have been addressed.
Here’s what we know : the Vale lords proclaimed Jon as King in Season 6, they clearly recognize him as a King, Sansa and Littlefinger both say that Littlefinger has “declared for House Stark”, which would seem to indicate that he has sworn fealty to them, and yet Jon is only ever referred to as King in the North, including when speaking with Dany.
She is concerned about him taking the northernmost kingdom, but she makes no mention of the Vale. So what are they doing ? Are they declaring their own independence ? Is Robin a King now ? They obviously aren’t loyal to the Iron Throne any longer, and they aren’t fans of Dany based on Royce’s dialogue in Episode 2, so either they’re independent or Jon is King of the North and the Vale, in which case it’s two kingdoms that Dany has lost, not one, and Jon should be counting the Vale armies among his troops.
So, we are once again left wondering : is Jon King of the Vale ? Based on how they’ve dealt with it so far (or failed to deal with it), I doubt we’ll ever know.
I think it’s Sansa too. #1 She is now addicted to revenge. #2 That prophecy about a younger, more beautiful queen taking her place. She got rid of Marg, now she has to kill Sansa (who is currently ruling the North) and Dany.
Also-that would fit LF’s MO
FFS, you ask some ridiculous questions! Use your imagination…
What’s not to say there was a lake close by where Drogon came down and Jaime and Bronn ended up in that? If that battle field was close to a large source of water, the surrounding ground could well be water logged in any case which would explain the puddles they were galloping through.
On an historical note. During WWII, many paratroopers were drowned due to their parachutes getting caught up and not able to release them after been dropped into marsh land. Some parts of Europe have ‘wet lands’ and I would presume some areas of Westeros have similar terrain.
BTW, from what I recall last year from filming leaks, that area in Spain is like that .
See – https://watchersonthewall.com/lannisters-mobilize-malpartida-footage-key-game-thrones-sequence/
spaewife,
Exactly. If Jon is smart he will tell Dany he will bend the knee after the WW are defeated, but he cant lose the support of the Northern lords right now.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I would love that. And yes-I was so surprised I liked Dickon this episode. I mean, I LOVE Sam and his mom and sister-but Dickon?! Apparently Randyll is the only real Dick of the family. 🙂
Tyrion Lannister is the man who used wildfire to burn alive hundreds of Stannis’ men at Blackwater and kill his own father in cold blood.
Jaime Lannister is the man who only last episode claimed ‘It doesn’t matter how Cersei gets the victory if it meant peace at the end’. The guy was more than okay with his sister burning alive hundreds of unsuspecting civilians at the Sept. He was okay with killing defenders of Highgarden and stealing their money and food. But now suddenly, he’s oh so distraught at the sight of evil Dany fighting back and killing his men in war?
Just stop, seriously. Its ridiculous to hold any of these characters to a higher moral ground. They are all killers. The Hound always had it right, the only one who talks sense.
SnowWolf,
He’s alright. He’s not going down this season, trust me.
The Lannister soldiers were too busy getting barbecued and running away to notice Bronn’s shot.
The fact is Dany still has her ace card secure and now she knows her enemy’s tactics.
Basically, if you have dragons, your enemy’s fucked. And quite right too.
Ghost’s Lunch,
I think Tycho was too nice. He’s a FM…maybe Jaqen. It’s a trap!
Hahaha, well, that’s certainly an original objection.
Markus Stark,
Ha ha, I just wrote the most insightful review for Dorne right before you asked about what’s going on there.
I know, I know, modesty is definitely not one of my vices.
Well, this is random…
Outstanding episode… one of the best ever in fact!
The battle- no words can describe it.
Really got the feels with Arya’s return home.. a mixture of trepidation and genuine happiness from both sisters; it was wonderful to see them genuinely happy… just perfectly done.
Did anyone else think that Dickon totally had a boner for Jaime? Definitely a one sided bromance there… and Bronn’s laugh was just priceless ☺️
What are you talking about ? She clearly said she’ll fight for the North when Jon bends the knee. I don’t know what it is that you think they discussed off-screen that could have changed that. She made it clear that she won’t be helping if he doesn’t bow to her, and I’m criticizing that.
What off-screen conversation could possibly be relevant to this point ? You think as they were walking out of the cave she went “Just kidding, I’ll help you either way but please do recognize me nevertheless” ? If that were her position, we’d know it.
As for the supposed nitpicking, well, I never said her riding style or garb were a big issue, they aren’t. They’re very minor issues. I just said it was silly, and it is. Frankly, it’s a little lazy as well. Give her a freaking saddle and some armor and be done with it. Riding with her dress and perfect hair as she hangs onto the spikes on Drogon’s back is ridiculous.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Absolutely. Dany’s visions in the books definitely point to Jon. An alliance-possible marriage-for survival and/or love ties. It’s happening. It was always going to happen.
Lyanna and Rhaegar are the two most important people in the entire series (that are dead) Entwined in everything: King Robert’s melancholy, Cersei’s vengeance, Oberyn’s vengeance, Cat’s hatred of Jon, Ned’s secrets, Jon’s existence, the prince prophecy, Dany’s life on the run and her desire to be better than her father. The Reeds involvement in story.
There is, arguably, an echo of Lyanna and Rhaegar in Jon and Dany’s relationship. Stark/Targ, Ice/Fire, Strong woman, broody sensitive man.
It works for me 🙂
He makes me feel like I’m failing at brooding. 😉
Leuf,
Because if they are shipping them then he won’t have to bend the knee. For me all over again without the fighting.
It was referenced earlier, actually. In the beginning of his travels with Brienne, she asked him how he ended squiring for Tyrion. Podrick told her he was about to be hanged because of the knight he was serving before stealing some ham, but Tywin ordered him to be released when he learned his name was Payne. I doubt we’ll get more on this matter, unless poor Pod is the one to elevate House Payne to lordship. He could definitely use a castle and some helping hands to built him a fire, now that winter has come.
Markus Stark,
Again, being really overly critical. None of the omissions you listed were necessary to move the plot in a meaningful way. I doubt D&D forgot about all those things. Get real. This show has been their life for the last 10 years.
As much as you want all those references to be included they just aren’t necessary. Would it be cool? Yeah sure it would be but it doesn’t take away from the show one bit that they aren’t.
Say what? Did you somehow deduce that LF did not immediately recognize Arya? Or that Sansa is trying to pass her off as some random Northern lass who showed up at the gates one day and was immediately given the run of the castle, sparring lessons, Stark livery and access at will to Sansa and Bran? Sorry, but I saw no reason whatsoever to reach those conclusions. Baelish knows exactly who she is; he’s just trying to figure out how he can best make Arya a pawn in his overlapping games at this point – same as everybody else within his sphere.
That would be great, thank you!
Help Jon out here, do you ride a ‘dragon’ or does a ‘dragon’ ride you?
This is an important question that needs answering.
Can we talk about the series trailer with 12 guys north of the wall? Eastwatch title for next episode is making me think of it, and who might be in that party. I think Jon won’t stop at Winterfell-just go straight there. So:
Clearly 1. Jon-leader (resurrected by fire? Probably?)
2. *Tormund-fire hair
3. *Beric- Lightning Lord resurrected by fire
4. *Thoros-fire priest
5. The Hound-burned by fire w/ fire visions
But who are the others? Maybe the only way for *Theon to get any redemption is to join the party as the 6th man? (no fire there but it could still work)
7. *Benjen. He’s the only guy with a horse plus Jon needs to see him one last time.
I could see Jorah (there for birth of dragons) and Gendry (blacksmith forged in fire) as being 8 and 9 but we haven’t seen Gendry yet so who knows?
It is kind of cool that all these people are so strongly connected to fire though. As a dream team, I’m loving it.
* means
This. Politically and philosophically, this is where GRRM (a veteran of the Vietnam-era antiwar movement) is coming from, though many readers/viewers fail to spot it because revenge scenes offer such visceral instant gratification. Vengeance is a shiny, appealing bauble that gives you a venomous bite when you reach for it. Transcending the desire for it is going to lie at the heart of several characters’ arcs, most notably Arya.
Che,
I’m always entertained by people who insist that titles pass by some sort of magically-enforced “right.” The entire point of this series is the fact that anyone can lay claim to a title, on any pretext, and it then gets decided by politics, backroom deals, financial shenanigans, and/or brute force. That’s why deposers generally executed all of the children of the deposed, if they could – because there was nothing that actually negated a claim except for death or (maybe) a religious vow (and Jon’s already defied both of those, so in this world, nothing works.)
Re: “His heart will stop when he sees you”
I admit that my judgement is clouded by the fact that I am a firm Arya/Jon shipper ever since I read the first book 6 years ago, but my first thought was that it means he will be awestruck by Arya as an adult, who turned out to be pretty (as it was mentioned earlier). Combine it with the “treason for love” bit from Dany’s profecies, and it could mean that even if there will be some Jon/Dany action later in the season, something may happen that might turn Jon against their relationship (like learning R+L – which also means the Stark girls are his cousins, or just Dany being entitled as always).
Regarding Sansa, Jon has spent most of a season together believing she is his sister, so I don’t see any romance with her. But Jon may learn the truth before he sees Arya again (he last saw her as a child, and she has changed a lot), and we know that cousin marriages are normal, even in the North (Ned’s parents were cousins (Offtopic, but that means Jon has two Stark grandparents on the mother’s side and two Targ grandparents on his father’s side)
And yeah, I know it is very unlikely. I have to admit that Jon dying just before/after reuniting with Arya has more chance (because this is GOT)
But Arya being “Jon’s special one” definitely needs to have some kind of payoff. (Like Arya = song, so with Jon being ice and fire, Arya is the song of Ice and Fire. I would laugh so hard if Arya ended up as main character, with Jon, Dany, Tyrion and everybody else being red herrings ).
What am I talking about? Dont be obtuse. Did you see Jon bend the knee? No you didnt. We didnt see him respond at all to her, yet obviously they cut away to the two of them walking out of the cave. Do you think he just looked at her and mumbled and then turned around and just walked out?
Perhaps, but thats the point. We didnt get to see his response, but we can assume that off screen he said something to her and then they left. Obviously she asks him on the beach what he thinks she should do, so despite her insistence that he bend the knee and his persistent refusal, she still values his opinion.
Again, have some imagination. You really seem like youre auditioning to be a film critic or something on this board. You point out the smallest little details that really arent important at all for the movement of the story. It gets a little silly. But youre not the only one. Theres a bunch of people here who just want to nit pick every little thing without any kind of imagination.
When you criticize why Jon didnt say anything back to Dany when she questioned him about his pride, its being overly nitpicky. Could they have added a line in the script for him to respond? Sure. But they youd criticize it when they cut away and she didnt then follow up with a response of her own. And over and over and over again. Because you want to nit pick.
Its more dramatic to leave him looking at her, and then cut away to them walking out of the cave together. Again. Use some imagination.
What I took from that line was not foreshadowing of anything bad happening to Jon in the future, but more a sort of Freudian slip in which Sansa almost told Arya about Jon’s death and resurrection and then bit her tongue. Read into that what you will, but I will give Sansa the benefit of the doubt and presume that she thought it would be premature to drop that particular credulity-stretching bomb before she and Arya felt their way through their awkward process of reacquaintance.
Firannion,
It is entirely possible that LF recognized her, but not immediately. In the Inside the Episode this week, D&D are discussing how Arya is in fact not really recognized when she returns. Also, in a previous GOO podcast, they discussed this very thing about Arya returning to Winterfell and whether or not LF would recognize her from her time as Tywin’s cupbearer. It was either a) He doesn’t recognize her, or b.) He recognized her at Harrenhal and did not say anything and may bring it up at Winterfell. I guess the next episodes will hopefully reveal that. But, yes, I agree with you that he will definitely try to use her….and will be in waaaay over his head when he does.
Firannion,
obligatory🤔
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f9jac7Qg9w4
Connor,
People are ridiculous. I read somewhere once that dragons shouldnt even be able to fly based on their body weight/structure/wing design etc.
It makes me laugh. Dragons arent even real and people want to bitch and complain about dramatic elements that are there mostly to create dramatic tension.
Yes, its not likely that Bron was able to push Jamie that far out into the water at just the perfect moment for them to not get turned into ash. We really dont need movie critic wannabes on here pointing that out. Duh. It doesnt matter. It was exciting to watch and doesnt diminish the plot at all.
Jeez. Then again Im here posting too, so I must get some kind of enjoyment out of the lunacy of the Debbie Downers on this site.
Perhaps a bit of over-analysis, but I noticed something with Bronn in this episode. In a seemingly throw away bit of dialogue, Bronn complains about his debt not being repaid by the Lannisters and Jaime responds by saying something like (paraphrasing) “you are from some house no one has ever heard of and now have a saddlebag full of gold, what do you have to complain about.” Later in the episode it looks like Bronn should be toasted by Drogon’s fire, he jumps out of the way, but doesn’t get too far away from the scorpion. The shot makes sure to show Bronn being washed over by the flames of Drogon’s breath, but he is miraculously not burned – not even a hair is singed. If we need evidence about how hot that fire is we need look only at the incinerated Lannister soldiers. Is Bronn a Targaryen bastard? D&D rarely put meaningless dialogue in the show and it is interesting to finally have someone ask where Bronn is from and then see him avoid any kind of fire damage in the battle. Either that or just some bad physics during the battle scene 😛
Violator,
That’s kind of like telling a woman she should smile more. Just saying.
I am worried she is going off the deep end next episode and Tyrion is doubting his decision to serve her or her ability to be a kind ruler. I imagine it’s hard for him, attacking his family’s army. Not hard to oppose Cercei, but Jaime. And he will likely be appalled by the carnage of dragons. Should be interesting.
Cirothecarius,
with all the dapper dan in his hair, he should have lit up like the Astapori masters. headcanon confirmed
THIS exactly. next time “bend the knee” comes out of her mouth I want Jon to march her to that big table she has in her castle and say “here..this what yours in Westeros (pointing to little island) and THIS (waving his hand over the North) is MINE….soo about that…” lol
ACME,
To be fair marriages with the third or fouth cousins/aunts/uncles was more a norm than an exeption until like late 19th/early 20th century and this trend is still ery srong in the third world (that accounts for more than a half of the global population). Basically it all depends on the level of urbanization: when people live in smaller and more isolated communities (and nobility as such also makes a rather small and isolated community), the pool of available partners is rather shallow. So, what? We had a fiew mad or otherwise unhealthy kings (and queens) in European history, but it’s very hard to tell whether interbreading was a factor or not, because other people suffered similar diseases as well. IMO interbreading makes a problem simply because it makes an isolated community even more isolated and isolation leads to no good. Some influx of a fresh blood is always necessary to keep a community healthy and that’s why nature made us to develop sexual interest towards strangers rather than someone we know.
Cirothecarius,
I’ll go down that rabbit hole for a minute lol
Son of “You wouldn’t know him” does have a strong connection with fire. Blackwater and now this battle-pivotal in both.
He’s also clearly difficult to kill-
plot armor=important to the story.
A guy who is just there for the money wouldn’t be such a big damn hero over and over again imo.
I’m not sure he’s a secret anything, but he is one of my favorite characters. I hope he and Tyrion come back together soon.
Tarly: She’s got 3 fully grown dragons. How do you plan to deal with them?
Qyburn: We are exploring a solution to that problem.
Tarly: What kind of solution?
Qyburn: Officially, it’s a massive array of ballistae pivot-mounted on wagons.
Tarly: Sounds good.
Qyburn: Unofficially, it’s just one.
Tarly: Okaaayyyy…..
Qyburn: Truthfully, we’re just going to sacrifice a ton of soldiers until the dragons run out of fire.
Tarly: I like it!
Yes, the dragon wings should be much (much!) bigger, and they definitely should not be making big thuds when they land. The biggest pterosaurs weighed only about 200 kg and they needed 10+ meter wingspans to keep that body in the air!
There really is no reason why LF should have recognized her at Harrenhall. There is no indication that Ned took Arya places where Littlefinger could have seen her often, and if Arya had been there, then she would have been dressed like a young lady and with completely different hair. Her face would have been a lot rounder, too, both due to being younger and better fed. Moreover, if LF was paying any attention to either Stark girl, then it would have been Sansa that caught his eye, simply because Sansa bears a strong resemblance to her mother.
I, for one, have never gotten this “they met, therefore they should recognize each other forever” idea. In the real world, we always fail to recognize people we’ve met over and over. (I recently just met a young colleague who was a student at a short course I taught years ago: and, of course, I didn’t remember that…. 🙁 )
There’s no such thing as being “overly critical”. I’m critical of things I don’t like, that’s all there is to it.
Maybe you need to realize that what you look for in the show and what others look for in the show aren’t the same thing. Get over it.
I’ve watched this scene numerous times already. Not sure I get your point.
It was always a matter of contention among viewers whether LF recognized Arya at Harrenhal or not. Clearly his antennae are tweaked, but it might simply be along the lines of ‘I think I’ve seen that girl before, but not sure where.’ The only canon we have for the two having been in the same place at the same time prior to that was at the Hand’s Tourney, where Baelish’s attention was much more focused on Mini-Cat Sansa; scruffy little sister who didn’t really want to be there might not really have registered with him. He’s an astute and observant fellow, but he can’t give equal observation to everyone at once – especially at an event with hundreds of people present and dozens of his webs doubtless in play.
Most recently, I read that Aidan Gillen said that he meant to play that Harrenhal scene as if he DID recognize Arya, but was not explicitly instructed to do so by the director. I guess they wanted to keep it inconclusive. But once she came back to Winterfell… who else would she conceivably be? I find it very difficult to imagine him not putting two and two together very quickly.
I hope this is a trolling post because if so, bravo.
Again, Daenerys fire-resistance is fairly unique to her. Yes, Targaryens often like hotter baths than other people: but her brother Viserys was hurt by mere wax drippings.
What this represents is the equivalent of “explosion in space.” That is, Bronn needs to make a daring “just miss” escape from the fire. But here is the problem: to escape a jet of fire, you have to get it to miss you by a very wide margin. If it looks close, then it was much too close, and the person should be badly burned. But…. on screen, it lacks drama because, just as all bombs must be defused with the clock set at 1 second, all explosions/fires/bullets/swords must be missed by the narrowest of margins.
In other words, it is reality’s fault for not being cinematic enough! 😀
Markus Stark,
Ok the things you dont like are often trivial and minutia. Great.
There also are different levels of recognition, both of which should be familiar to everyone. One of them is: “I’m sure I’ve seen that face before, but… who? where?” (This is opposed, of course, to “It’s my best friend Bob!”) If LF recognized Arya at all, then it should have been the first one, i.e., there is something familiar about her that I cannot place.
With that arrow shot from the ballista , im not so sure of that , we could see how Drogon almost throwed Daenerys off her back , so that arrow did some damage trust me , even Tyrion Lannister saw that so Daenerys .
Yeah the fire did its damage on the Lannister soldiers but im sure some of them did see Bronn´s shot , at least Bronn did , the thought of that you can damage them that they could be wounded is enough for Bronn and Jaime Lannister who was that close to end Daenerys , Bronn wasn´t so far from hit Daenerys to , So to me this shows that the dragons are vulnurable and even if Drogons wound not is fatal its clear that it wounded the dragon so much that he was that close to throw Daenerys off my friend.
If you not think that Cersei own a ace card to i don´t think you know her verry well , not only the ballistas , and even if Dany know the tactics so do Cersei she knows to well that Daenreys count on her dragons and with Drogon wounded so could i not agree that Dany has her card as secure as you think .
Not if you could wound them and kill them , with Qyburns ballistas they could my friend. “If they can be wounded, they can be killed,” Qyburn
By this ridiculous standard they might as well not show anything. I mean, why show the Dothraki fighting the Lannisters. Use some imagination, right ?
Why show Arya and Sansa reunite, just show Arya arriving at the gates and then cut to her sparring with Brienne. I mean, we can just use some imagination.
That argument takes the cake for silliest defense of the show ever, congrats.
As for Jon bending the knee, where on Earth did you see me saying he bent the knee ? I’m criticizing Dany because I found her argument to be stupid and immoral. What you’re saying is completely and utterly irrelevant to that point.
Nowhere did I say that Jon bent the knee.
Then you talk about her valuing his opinion. Again, this is totally irrelevant to what I was talking about.
If you think any criticism of dialogue, character motivation, etc… is “nitpicking”, then maybe you should just do us all a favor and admit that you don’t care about the details of the story, you don’t care about the logic, you don’t care about the journey, you just care about the destination, the spectacle, and what is absolutely essential to the story moving forward.
Well, that’s fine, but guess what, some people do care about the details. Call it “nitpicking” if you want, but I don’t know what you think that accomplishes. I’m giving my opinion. If certain things bothered me, calling my complaints “nitpicking” isn’t going to change my mind, it’s just going to make me think you have no argument and would rather blindly defend the show.
I don’t take issue with your desire to pretend the show is flawless, so don’t lecture me about what I can or cannot criticize.
“When you criticize why Jon didnt say anything back to Dany when she questioned him about his pride, its being overly nitpicky. Could they have added a line in the script for him to respond? Sure. But they youd criticize it when they cut away and she didnt then follow up with a response of her own. And over and over and over again. Because you want to nit pick.
Its more dramatic to leave him looking at her, and then cut away to them walking out of the cave together. Again. Use some imagination.”
That’s the silliest thing you’ve said. I never said I wanted to see them leaving the cave. I never said they couldn’t cut away.
I simply said I would have preferred the scene if Jon had turned her argument about survival VS pride against her. Jon has a stronger point, and he should have made it in my opinion. I think it would have been a more powerful place to end the scene. Then they can cut away immediately after that, I don’t care. Stop inventing things I never said.
BranTheBlessed,
Thanks!! I don’t at all understand Dany hate.. not one bit
Firannion,
Oh he def knows her now. Brienne pretty much calls her Catelyn’s daughter.
I just like that scene and must post it when it’s mentioned or alluded to.
By the way, this was a really solid episode. OK, the pyrotechnics at the end got a little unrealistic at times (Jaime and others should have been severely burned just being that close to fires hot enough to cremate people!), but, hey: doing it correctly would have been bad filmmaking. (Billy Joel’s Goodnight Saigon used synthesizers for the helicopter sounds because taped helicopter sounds did not sound realistic enough!)
My biggest gripe on the unrealism? There is no way that Bronn would have come close to hitting Drogon after just two shots. It would take a lot of targeting practice to account for just how much the arrow will “fall”: remember, it decelerates at 9.8 m/s2 or something close to that as it rises; that in turn means that you have to be very practiced to know how to compensate based on how far away the target is. But… hey, it’s a story, and stories have been doing this ever since people started telling them.
For all the action and excitement at the end, this was a huge table-setting episode. The Lannisters now have had their forces (and presumably the forces of many of their allies) routed badly, and lost a ton of food, either to destruction or capture. (Either way, they don’t get to eat it.) However, Cersei has her gold, and thus the means to add more troops, if not to feed them. But, no: we won’t be getting any background from the Golden Company because it is much (much!) too late to introduce that.
We also have an interesting situation in Winterfell. With Arya back, we now have two Starks who think that the big enemy is to the South and one who thinks that the big enemy is to the North.
On a side note, I am finding the unspoken acting between Jon & Daenerys to be really well done. They look like that couple with a mutual attraction that does not want that attraction to exist and who do not quite recognize that it is mutual. And, seriously, a cave with paintings? That’s got to be the best “makeout” spot ever! Seriously, though, it was very telling that Daenerys turned to Jon in her anger. One should understand why she would be both angry at Tyrion and not particularly keen to hear his or Varys’ suggestions at that moment. And one should understand why she’s becoming impatient. However, Jon’s advice (which is the same but repackaged) works because, even thought it is the same, it is repackaged.
Oh, and I do like how Missandei gave us one more little “Hey! Did you miss this parallel in dynamic character development?” bit, just for all the dipsticks who want to pretend that Jon and Daenerys are somehow antithetical…..
I love this idea despite the fact that the NK may not agree to go along with it. 🙂
My memory may be faulty but didn’t Benjen say that the COTF stabbed him with dragonglass to prevent him from turning into a wight?
Well said and I certainly was conflicted. It really was horrific. For me, there was no winner. Everyone lost.
I believe that he did recognize her. He will try to manipulate the Stark siblings against each other and (hopefully) fail spectacularly. When used together, their combination of skills, experiences and knowledge are formidable. It is one of my greatest hopes as we near the end of this story: Sansa, Arya and Bran will bring down the man that played a role in destroying their family.
Markus Stark,
Tbf I think a lot of Jon and Dany’s scenes/exchanges are being written to build up chemistry/understanding/love between the two. That’s probably why they had Dany say the exact words Jon had once said to Mance, probably why they made Jon look at Dany-wide eyed and speechless-in response.
Its very commonly used. Making one half of potential partners say the same words the other half had once said.
Season 8 final scene spoiler
Any Metal Gear fans? The scene where Jaime yells “take cover” and the men get ashed. Jaime then turns away from the dust and looks over his shoulder…just like Solid Snake in a scene I can’t recall. Maybe from guns of the patriots?
Connor,
I still don’t get it…
I wonder if the end shot of Jamie sinking into the water will be the symbolic death of the “Cersi” Jamie – with the “re-born” Jamie rising from the water next episode . . .
Perhaps his “baptism-by-fire” will give him a new perspective . . .
SnowWolf,
Trust me, he’s not going anywhere.
Take it from me. I’m not guessing this.
kathy,
Huh? What does childhood abuse have to do with this particular storyline? Clearly you are projecting your own issues onto the show and its unfortunate, bc its not allowing you to enjoy a lovely work of fiction. My goodness.
i didn’t see the same stuff you are seeing. I doubt Bronn is a Targ…. but there has always been something strange …. in the first season he deflects questions about his history … and is even extremely vague as to where he found Shae. Seems I recall Bronn has deflected questions about himself several times. Davos does not mind admitting he is from Flea Bottom … Bronn seems to have skills that a base commoner would not pick up, tho maybe he did with some sell sword company.
For what its worth, and I discussed it in another thread, I believe LF knew that it was Arya when he met with Tywin at Harrenhal. He looks at her with a curious eye at least once while shes doing her chores, and when he gets back to KL, he tells Sansa that he saw her sister. There was no reason for him to even say that if he didnt recognize her.
Yes, Arya was at the tournament in S1, and LF probably would have recognized her from that encounter, even though he didnt specifically talk with her. He is after all a very perceptive man.
So, with that in mind, when Arya shows up at WF, its idiotic to think that LF just thought shes some little ninja girl. He would have recognized her most certainly from Harrenhal, even if he actually didnt recognize her at the time.
In short, theres no reason to think he doesnt know who she is now.
Episode 7’s title has been announced.
It’s called ‘Enter The Dragon’
Youve officially jumped the shark. Yes, lets just have the books and nothing else, thats exactly what Im saying. Obviously. Why show anything at all? Yes you are actually obtuse.
LOL
Markus Stark,
Totally agree. At least some leather clothing, something that might keep her warm (its probably a little cooler up there) and a little safer. And I thought they were getting some sort of saddle. I loved how Yara and the SSs looked like they should in a fight. I don’t get why Dany can’t.
Not just words. Think of the bit in Sleepless in Seattle where the Tom Hanks character’s son says weepily that he’s already starting to forget what his mother was like, and Dad reminds him that his Mom could peel a whole apple in one long unbroken slice. Then, in one of the first scenes with Meg Ryan, we see her talking on the phone while peeling an apple exactly as described. It’s essentially the same trope, only half-verbal, half-visual. Rather blatant set-up that she’s Ms. Right, but sort of cute in its way. I’m still waiting to be charmed by the Jon/Dany attracted-but-in-denial schtik.
If we do get to the point where Dany and Jon have to go their separate ways in season 8 then this music is obligatory and must be played over a montage of close ups on both our leads’ faces as each one fades into another.
Oh, and there will have to be a motorbike and a sunset. There’s always a motorbike and a sunset.
Anything and I’m rioting.
*snort*
I don’t understand why so many people (reviewers included, in some articles I’ve read), are confused about the gold getting to KL. Tarly clearly says to Jaime that it has arrived safely.
So, a thought occurred to me, at comic-con San Diego this year Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei) was wearing
Is she f*cking with us!? Does she know about the theories regarding
?
Of course it could be only a coincidence. Still, this completely distracted me from my work today.
Markus Stark,
I agree with the uncertain standing of the Vale at this point. However, I think it’s purposeful on the part of the writers. The fact that it has not been included in Hot Pies recounting of the BOB and Jon hasn’t included it in the northern counts can only be because the Vale, i.e. Littlefinger, does not want it to be included. He is either 1) not fully committing to the north, which is belied by the fact that Sansa has been told they are, or 2) he is telling the Starks not to include the Vale for whatever reasons (keep Cersei in doubt or use Robyn as the reason).
There is no way that Littlefinger is going to remain in the north if the WW even start towards Winterfell. He is going to take that army and run. He is playing them and Cersei. I would imagine that he started the rumors of the BOB in the south specifically leaving out the Vale army. He could have sent soldiers to the Vale for some made up reason telling them to spread the tale along the way or sent ravens to whomever. He knows everyone and knows how news travels.
His lack of time in the story lately leads to discounting his presence as a major player, but I believe he’s going to emerge later as one of the final characters. Could be wrong, but there’s a reason Varys considers him the most dangerous person in Westeros. We’ll see!
Sam: “Em, look….please bite down on this and try not to scream.”
NK: “???!!”
Sam: “Look, I’m sorry, I am, but if you wake up all the walkers, not to mention Little Sam, it really is going to be anarchy around here, so if you don’t mind…”
NK: “…….” *places leather strap in mouth*
Sam: “Thank you kindly.” *takes out really big tweezers*
The dragon physics aren’t nearly as bad as the portrayal of the white walkers…. I mean real corpses are 100% more dead than on the show!
Never try to apply real world physics to a show about magical zombies and dragons.
/smh
Yeah, I wasn’t a fan of the “You’re lying” response to Hot Pie, when he was telling the truth. That wide-eyed face should be kindergarten-level detection for a Faceless Man.
Not for now , but mark my words that arrow did what it should , im also sure that Cersei & Qyburn own some ace card for Daenerys big boys my friend.
Neither do i my dragon friend.
I love me some Bronn as much as the rest of you, but last night I was oddly rooting against him during the entire battle. I figured it was as good a place as any for Bronn to meet his maker. I actually thought he was going to possibly kill Drogon on his final pass, only to get roasted as well. I did like though how they showed the typically cool, calm and collected Bronn to be pretty much panicked and overwhelmed by the carnage around him. Magnificent scene.
Mista C,
I wasn’t-but I was thinking he seems irritated with Jaime and he hates Cersei…also fighting dragons is absolutely no fun. Now would be a good time to switch sides for a Tyrion reunion 🙂
In terms of evolving thoughts
It’s worth considering not just S1 Arya training from Syrio about the different styles and using Needle Braavosi style, but also what the Hound said about Meryn Trant wearing armour and how Needle didn’t penetrate the Hounds armour
So Arya using both Needle trained by Syrio the swordsman and VS assassin dagger taught by HoB&W is a way of showing that after Bran has given her that dagger against accomplished Brienne she has completed her fight training
Indeed I reckon there is a hint about the VS punching through White Walkers armour
Secondly, it may be too late in the piece for Cersei to actually use the GC against her enemies, but this may be a way of bringing the Golden Company into the picture as a stand-in for Aegons invasion bringing them in to nevertheless put them into an important plot position book and show wise in the battle against the White Walkers
Pleasantly surprised by Dickons character development, seems he may get his moment to wield Heartsbane against the WW’s
SnowWolf,
Drogon is going nowhere this season – that’s a fact.
He will die, but probably not because of some man-made toothpick.
Mista C,
I felt the same! I love Bronn, but I guess in the heat of battle true loyalties show lol.
Oh yes, there’s something “odd” about the Davos and Missandei scenes
I like the idea that Missandei may be double-crossing Dany, and so like the idea Ser Davos the street-smart may be sniffing her out
Of course I can’t escape the irony that people of Essos are free to follow or not follow Dany but not the Westerosi Northerners it seems…
That and while Missandei and Dany is bragging about her titles and achievements it’s worth considering that Jon “Wall climbing”, Castle Black victor etc etc achievements are no less accomplished
Random thoughts:
You guys think that Bran is creepy NOW? Seriously? Creepiest Child in the North. From the start.
Jon and Dany have no chemistry together. Ygritte, she’s got nothing on you.
Littlefinger is waste of space.
How convenient for named characters to survive the battle *eyeroll*
Loved the realism of Stark sisters’ reunion.
Cercei has a very boring plotline this season. Not mad enough.
Bronn should have died.
Alfie Allen- what a talent!
Davos serves as a comic relief aka Gilmi in Two Towers.
Missandei’s ignorance must be plot hole.
White walkers in the cave are hilarious. Look like fan art by 6 year old.
On top of talking of Narth, and Euron being the “best Captain of the 14 Seas”, part of me wonders if Euron was the slaver to take her from Narth, and if there is a connection there allowing him to know right where Dany’s fleets are
Ghost’s Lunch,
I’ve noted this as well previously and have yet to get a reasonable answer. She allows the people of Essos to do whatever and be free from her when she rules there, but the people of Westeros better bend the knee and do as she says when she rules there?
I don’t recall her going on a bend the knee rampage when she ruled in Essos, but eh, whatever. It is what it is.
Yeah Bran managed to out-creep Littlefinger which is a momentous feat
What this really needs though is Bran in a warg state or in visions of the past much of the time, to prove the point as Jojen said of him warging Summer too much and Bloodraven of him spending too much time Greenseeing will screw them up, which seems to be happening thanks to the mega-upload
As for the Cave paintings, well the awkward side of that is there’s a wee bit of a question mark as to why Stannis and Mel never ventured down there to see those not-too-hard-to-find paintings…
Lol. Sam is becoming very efficient when following detailed instructions!
Honestly, I am confused by the whole NK/WW enhancement process. An obsidian dagger was used to create the original NK yet obsidian has been used (by Sam and Meera) to obliterate the subsequently-created WW generals. Were the WW generals created by obsidian as well? All we saw was the NK poke his finger into the baby’s cute cheek and voila! On the other hand, it is also used to protect from WW transformation as well (see Benjen), like a kind of pacemaker. Is it a steroid, a pacemaker and a magical unraveler? An all-powerful contextual plot device! Need more info!
Sam and Gilly need to read more and discuss.
If you zoom in on one of the Season 7 stills released by HBO last month – the one that shows the small group of fighters in a ring in a snowy landscape, surrounded by the Army of the Dead – you can make out that one of them is armed with a warhammer. Surely Gendry isn’t the only guy in Westeros whose weapon of choice that is, but it’s enough of a shred to give me hope. And Joe Dempsie did put in a showing at the season premiere event.
Ghost’s Lunch,
Their first interaction together was most strange, Davos mentioned butterflies then things became really awkward for some reason. Was that a test? Are there butterflies on Narth? Missandei would know of course….right?
Maybe she’s just all business and doesn’t want to talk to a stranger/adversary about butterflies.
I must admit I’m back and forth on this thing, especially after my realization today
I won’t have any resolution until the credits roll on the final episode.
Does Bruce Lee appear in it! Ahhhh 😀 😀
Great episode overall. The only thing that disappointed me was that no character of consequence died in the battle. I thought it would have been a perfect time to finish Bronn off for good. It also keeps the viewing audience on the edge of their seats, as it keeps the feeling of “plot armor” at bay.
Firannion,
Lol…what did you think she was going to do with her dragons? Have a polite mid flight discourse with the Lannister forces. Her family’s words are “fire and blood”….the reason being that her ancestors conquered the seven kingdoms with those two things.
Violator,
Hey ass clown….how about you not post anything about leaks here. K, thanks.
It is a particularly radioactively unstable isotope of obsidian found only on Planetos, called MacGuffinite after the first geologist to describe it. It can do anything that the showrunners decree it can do – especially when a red comet has been seen in recent years.
Lets see about that .
That toothpick hurted Drogon so much that he landed & almost throwed off the pretty little dragon queen . Daenerys couldn´t rub the arrow , good for a toothpick i must say don´t you think my friend?
I never said that what she did was implausible within the context of GRRM’s universe – only that I find it appalling, barbaric behavior. I cannot cheer when human beings are barbecued, even fictional ones – no how matter how much the aristocrat who employs them ‘deserves it.’ I found it horrific to watch, and it just cements my inability to find Dany a sympathetic or admirable character. I don’t believe that any political situation warrants the use of weapons of mass destruction. Your mileage may vary, obviously.
Shadow Shifter,
she still has all her own ships from the masters. the lost ships were the greyjoys the ships that tranported grey worm might have been some of hers but she had an armada
Ghost’s Lunch,
Oooh. Sounds feasible. There is definitely something going on and this overly flirty Davos feels like an act-I think he’s hot on the trail. Maybe he knows something about Naath via his old buddy the pirate (Salladhor Saan)
Glad I’m not the only one to find her loathsome. I was cheering when it looked like she was going to fall off that nasty dragon from a great height. Most disappointing.
Hopefully she’ll get roasted by one of the other two dragons that she treated so cruelly.
In this universe.
I disagree. I mean, maybe the showrunners are going to follow through on the insanity of inserting a love story into the real story at this late stage of the game, but I’m not buying it. what chemistry I see on screen is contrived. To me, it’s not sweet, it’s forced.
I’m a born romantic but if we’ve judged Jaime and Cercei – and everyone on the show has judged jaime and Cercei – then the idea of an aunt and nephew together on the throne is equally shuddering IMHO.
I hope against hope we have nothing more than a little flirtation and Jon ends up settling down with a nice tough girl like Meera Reed.
Jon. Dany. I am at odds with the idea of aunt and nephew (not relations as a whole in this medieval world). It feels like a teacher and student. But there’s more to why I don’t think it’ll happen. I like to think if Bran’s journey was Skywalker’s from Empire to Return of the Jedi, that Jon and Dany’s attraction is akin to Luke and Leia’s kiss before he figured out they were twins. She can get a bedmate anywhere. She needs family. Nevermind Jon’s unextractable link to redheads. 🙂
However, I am beginning to wonder how long Jon’s going to be king. I can’t put a finger on why or how, and I don’t mean his death.
So Cersei pays the debt, but can’t feed her people. That’s not going to be pretty.
Oh Baelish. Your creepin’ days are numbered, lone wolf. I can’t wait!
Philip IV of Spain and his niece Mariana of Austria (1600s). But unfortunately their surviving male offspring (his sisters were fine!) was sterile and possibly retarded as result of so much inbreeding. And that was the end of the Hapsburgs in Spain. Another result was the famous Hapsburg chin, which appears in many Hapsburgs of Europe. BTW, look at the many family portraits by Velazquez of Philip IV and his family. You could use them to illustrate a genetics book.
lol.. when he was fighting the dothraki I was like “Bronn, no! these are gonna be your buddies when you (and Jamie hopefully) switch sides and join the good guys!”
Bronn is ready, just needs an incentive (looking at you Mr Hand of the Queen)
we just need to get Jamie there lol
Kellie Is Coming,
He’s not been paid yet. If Jaime dies, he won’t be.
A Stark in Aus,
Maybe it´s a trick for killing Olenna
Firannion,
Did you think the same when Tyrion used wildfire against Stannis fleet or when Jon et al. used fire against the Wildlings?
This is an interesting theory. I also thought the two convos with Davos seemed odd. She came across as uncomfortable/disinterested and maybe even a little defensive. I’m watching the episode again later tonight and will watch more closely. It would make sense for there to be another layer to her story.
I still can’t figure out why LF gave him the dagger. Like Sansa said, he’s not a generous person. Why would he do such a thing? Then, he seemed delighted to see that Arya could overtake Brienne if it came down to it. Is that his plan? To get Arya aside and fill her full of nonsense about Brienne, so that Arya will kill or disable Brienne?
LOL I’d like to watch an episode at your house. I was sure she was going to kiss HIM, she kept edging closer and closer. Then she comes up with Bend the Knee. I bet everyone at your house went NOOO. I actually said to the tv, “Oh Dany f*** you with the bend the knee bit already.” She’s gonna have to fight the damned WW anyway unless she wants to be a popsicle herself.
BigMac,
The thing is though even if Dany is starting to believe Jon, without the North’s fealty it’s gonna be hard for her to commit to anything without a safety net. Like fair enough she helps them, then what? After she helps them win the war without their fealty and her losing a large chunk of her people in the war how is she gonna take on Cersei when they can just go “no thank you, wars in the south don’t concern us, we’re independent” than Dany would be screwed and she knows it
Her time training with Syrio was small compared to her time with the Faceless men.
thisgirlhasnoname,
If Euron knew where the fleets were all the time he would have destroyed the entire Dothraki army in transit across the water.
Euron is a world traveler and I am sure knows the Dothraki hate the water.
All Danny’s allies are gone, the unsullied are boxed in, all she has left is the Dothraki horde.
Euron is smart enough to know if he sinks those ships the war is over.
Danny,
Viserys abused Dany her entire life, he beat her constantly, he stripped her naked and called her ugly to punish her because he desired her, he wanted to rape her and Ilyrio had to post guards outside her door so he wouldn’t, he blamed her for their mothers death, he even blamed her for Roberts Rebellion because she wasn’t born sooner to marry Rhaegar, Dany asked him as a young girl if he ever loved her and he replied “once” in a tone that made her feel unbelievably cold. In the books her reaction to Viserys death is different, she tries not to but she mourns him and dreams of him, names one of her dragons after him because she still loves him after all he did and wants to give his namestake another chance at being the family she wanted.
Keep your spoilers to yourself, please.
He’s hoping one of them will kill him with it, so they can stop the weird pattern this season of making his character hang around being useless, stuck in Winterfell. Seriously, I love LF, I wish they’d quit doing his character a disservice with this non-plot and just do the obvious (kill him), or actually make him a threat. It’s boring, making him out to be stupid after all this time.
Loved the battle though I want to shake sense into Jaime and Bronn. Especially Jaime. Drogon was breathtaking! Dany will have thighs of steel after the war is won. Tyrion needs to make her a dragon saddle asap. Loved the Stark reunion. I had tears for Meera though… heartbreaking. I enjoyed the Brienne and Arya sparring scene the most. Bran is on to your shit, Littlefinger! And again I’m not looking forward to them shoving Jon and Dany together… incest aside, there’s no chemistry there even if my kah-nigget Davos says so.
Pigeon,
Someone was saying that the Leaks said the gold was torched/stolen. So I’m guessing people who already “knew” what was going to happen just tuned that part out since it wasn’t “supposed to happen”. Who knows maybe they don’t even bother to watch. :p
Pigeon,
I watched the episode twice last night (as I do every week) and didn’t hear him say it. It may be his accent doesn’t go over well with a lot of people, who knows. It was a fluke. But weirdly, I edited my post early this morning, and people are still bitching about it. It’s really stupid.
Sue the Fury,
It’s not just you, a lot of people missed it in the open chat thread too.
Pigeon,
It took me a second watch to hear it. So much else going on the first time around, I think.
Ghost’s Lunch,
You mean the one that Samwell has (or has possibly pawned?) Weird that Tarly has said nothing about missing his sword…. I do agree with you tho; they are doing more with him than they did with the young actor who played him last season.
Daisy,
Not really – she doesn’t have his curls for one thing. (welcome btw!)
Oh, I wasn’t bitching about your review at all, Sue! You may have a point about the accent, that didn’t occur to me. ☺
Wow! I didn’t consider that – very true in some cases, I bet!
Am I allowed to talk about book shite here? Do I need to use the spoiler system that I don’t understand?
Sadly, he won’t be.
I can’t believe that no one has made mention that now LF knows the location of all the remaining Starks. He did promise Cersei that he would find both the Stark daughters. Now I think he realizes that he has done just that. Could come into play later… I also noticed some fear from LF as Arya stared him down on the balcony. The subtle quiver of his lower lip as he bows away from Brienne and Arya caught my attention. I think he’s very worried and may make a hasty decision that he may later regret.
Sir Podrick,
Why does that matter? Cersei has known where Sansa is for a while and gives 0 fucks about Arya.
Leuf,
For whatever it is worth, Jon Snow learned from Mans Rader, We do not bend the knee.
BigMac,
Doesn’t have to bend the knee if he gets down on one knee ayyyy
ManderlyPieCompany:
Sean C.:
Totally agreed with both of you on all of these points. So far this season, Ep2 has been by far the weakest for me because it engendered a number of these questions but failed to answer them—and Ep4 carried this trend over, albeit not as glaringly. I do love GoT, but am glad that I’m not alone in questioning both weaknesses in writing and an accelerated pace in a final season that has, thus far, left little room for interactions we might have seen in past seasons. For example, I would have loved to have seen a conversation, even a brief one, between Meera Reed and Dolorous Edd following Meera and Bran’s arrival at Castle Black. And like both of you, I’ve been holding my breath for a conversation about Maester Aemon!
Markus Stark,
This comment is gold; I can’t agree enough with all the points you make. As for Sandor, I also miss him terribly right now—not only because I’m an unabashed fangirl (go ahead, laugh), but mostly because, after all the mincing and toe-tapping and politicking of the last three episodes, some acerbically direct, cut-to-the-chase dialogue would be most welcome—as would the practical, humane, understated bravery of Sam. Here’s to seeing the Boyz n the Brotherhood and the Citadel in Ep5!
Redx:
It’s most definitely being done on purpose—after all, Robb and Sansa were always the most Tullyish of the Stark children—but its meaning is still unclear. It would be most tragic if the words spoken by Sansa in the second trailer, about the lone wolf dying, actually applied to Sansa herself.
ACME:
Welllll… There is the matter of an exceedingly high percentage of women dying whilst giving birth to Targaryen children. One more “adverse consequence of endogamy” on Planetos.
Thi Targaryen:
I agree. Sansa saw a connection forged with Brienne, one that was based on much more than a knight’s honor and a promise made to a dead mother. The fact that Sansa walked off the balcony before they were done sparring was clearly disturbing to both Arya and Brienne.
TheRealwolf,
Thank you for the insight into how different familial and sexual relationships are viewed in India. It’s really enlightening for someone who has never traveled in that part of the world, or read much about it.
Dolorous Methuselah,
Completely agreed! In an episode full of things I’d been looking forward to for a long time (Stark reunions, Dany unleashing Drogon), it was a wonderful nugget—and a wonderful episode during which to illuminate Bronn’s character, which was seemingly so superficial (albeit exceedingly amusing).
Daisy:
Direcat:
Welcome to both of you!!!
Daisy, not a coincidence: Both Arya and Jon are wearing their hair in a manner similar to Ned’s, as both have—through paths similar in some ways and different in others—reached an adulthood deeply marked by war and other violence, as Ned’s would have been. Not that, imo, they are necessarily conscious of this choice: They are both modeling the man who most deeply shaped them, for better and for worse (pardon the cliché).
Direcat, while I understand many viewers’ frustration with what seems like a static storyline for Littlefinger, I agree that he’s quietly scheming and “adding to his knowledge” of the North. Giving Bran the dagger took some serious chutzpah, even if it did blow right back in his face…
RG,
THIS.
Markus Stark,
YES.
Ser Not Appearing in this Series,
LMAOOO!!!
Connor,
Again: LMAOOO!!! I wanted to respond to those questions so many times, but I exercised self-control and read through all the comments to see if anyone else had responded appropriately… 😉
Wimsey:
My husband, a professor, often jokes that all his former students share the same name: Howyoubeen?
Wimsey:
(Unwittingly reminded of the nadir of Willem Dafoe’s career, Body of Evidence with Madonna… Wimsey, you’re driving me to drink!)
ramses,
Oh, I’m sure it was the blue lipstick.
/s
😉
Ghost’s Lunch:
Stannis always hated Dragonstone and had little concern or curiosity for anything that, in his opinion, didn’t further his cause as Robert’s heir. Melisandre, likewise, had little concern or curiosity for anything that didn’t relate directly (in her own opinion) to the Lord of Light. Together, they were a perfect example of how a) an utterly joyless devotion to duty and b) an utterly zealous devotion to religion can both result in utterly laughable blindness.
Kellie Is Coming,
Bronn was paid, but lost the bag of coin right before the shit hit the fan with the Dothraki. Hence many viewers’ surprise by his admirable decision to keep fighting—against a dragon, no less!—rather than just fleeing the scene, as most of us had been conditioned to expect of him.
Here’s a quick map thingy I made to help those who are still unsure of how Dany’s forces got to the Lannister supply convoy and where the battle took place etc.
Some people are mistakeningly thinking it all happened at Highgarden or in the Reach somewhere.
Supporting show clues:
Tyrion has a line regarding how they still have enough ships to transport the Dothraki inland for a blockade.
Randall Tarley has a line about how the gold got into the gate, and they need to get the rest of the grain wagons over the Blackwater Rush and into Kingslanding before nightfall. This happens just before the big attack.
Here is what I think are the routes taken and likely battlefield location.
http://imgur.com/a/fIlan
Thronetender,
I’ve had an off the wall theory in the back of my mind the past few days. I believe that Littlefinger could end up being a good guy. By “good” of course I don’t mean Jon or Davos level of goodness, but one of those grey, had to do bad things for the greater good kind of way. He seems sort of happy/intrigued with Arya being there. FM connection?
Pigeon,
I cannot understand why people think that LF is stuck at WF doing nothing. I do not think so that this is the case. It is obvious that he tries to influence Sansa, he tried to approach Jon and now Bran. He is working on it. The key is Sansa. But the door is still locked. It is an actual point that he is stuck at WF. He can’t leave now to Vale or anywhere else because he betrayed Cersei and took side with the North. So he has to stay at WF and play mind games. It doesn’t work at all and that is what we see. I am sure that there is more to this and we have had hints on it. He was in the ravens room, he got unsettled by Bran and challenged by Jon. And that look with Arya said a lot. So he has a very juicy role to play and the show runners will not reveal it from episode 1. They focus on Jon and Sansa. WF is now packed with characters and I like the slow burning qualities of LF’s arc so far because I am sure it is going to be a big explosion regarding him. So what’s the point of blurbing about him being useless when the potential is so dynamic?
That’s what I’ve been rooting for about two seasons already. Too good to happen, though.
If it were my job to report on GoT and knowing that how fast you turn out your review dramatically affects how many will read your review, like several times over, I’d have been enormously tempted to watch the illegal version and put the review together before the official release. I’m sure that I’d have given (and most others) at least one final view to the HD official version, yes, but that line might have been missed on one viewing, especially if that line was omitted from the leaked version.
Sophie did trollololol us with an LSH return, right? Perhaps it was a truth-troll in that Sansa will take on a bit of LSH’s role, sending Brienne on an oh-so-special mission to hunt down someone. Perhaps she’ll send Arya after someone else, too, or perhaps she’ll send them together… I’d freaking love an Arya/Brienne mission to the south!!!
I think it was meant more like “No say?”. She wasn’t actually paying much attention to him up to this moment, the first careful look she gave him was right after the “You’re lying” part. All in all, they pulled it off decently, without creating a plot hole, I think.
Either way, LF is toast. One Stark kid sees things from past and future, another can read faces. The third has no special powers, but knows exactly how aunt Lysa went through the Moon Door. He needs not just to set them against each other, but to wipe them out… not going to happen. Just finish him off already, for the sake of the good old Great Combinator who plunged The Seven Kingdoms into chaos with a smirk. It’s not his fault others were more agile/lucky to climb the ladder faster than him. It’s just how the chaos works.
A Stark in Aus,
This actually doesn’t alter your theoretical story arc. As a commercial bank lender (in a previous life) I can tell you that the Iron bank will probably thank Cersei for her business, and load the gold into their boats and sail home. In view of “recent developments” they will require a new application, a complete business plan, and maybe even a co-signer. Leaving Cersei in need of a new lender.
Why is the owner of the Valyrian dagger even a question? Wasn’t it confirmed it belonged to Joffrey and that he got it from Robert’s collection?
Chuck,
In Ep1, in the scene where Sam and Gilly were looking over books together, there’s a brief glimpse of a drawing of the dagger before Sam turns the pages to reveal (among other things) the map of Dragonstone. This very weapon was important enough to have been recorded in one of the books now in the Citadel. It’s highly unlikely that either Robert, Joffrey or Littlefinger knew its provenance, and given that it contains Valyrian steel and dragonglass, its final importance to the plot will probably be far greater than having merely been used as the tool of a failed assassination. I interpreted Bran’s question (“Do you know to whom this dagger belonged,” or words to that effect) as referring to its original owner (and possibly creator)… perhaps a veteran of the first war against the Walkers, the one immortalized in the dragonstone cave.
Wolfish,
Got it thanks. Very interesting….
Wolfish,
oohh i had forgot the dagger was pictured in that book…so Valyrian steel AND dragon glass…I wonder if dagger belonged to one of the children of the forest?? that would be kinda cool actually
And so perhaps this weapon is special in that it is the only weapon capable of de-dragonglassing the NK and therefore making him mortal. I mean, we have no reason to directly suspect that killing the NK will be different from killing any other WWs, except that there is always some final surprise to uncover. And wouldn’t it be cool if it were actually Arya to take down the NK?
Firannion,
That’s how I saw the episode it wasn’t a triumph or something to be celebrated. Dany crossed a line and there will be consequences for this, it appears Tyrion has lost faith in her. We saw the cruelty and horror she caused, this will further reduce what limited support she has to claim the Iron throne.
The battle scene was so excellent because you didn’t really want either side to “win”.
Leuf,
On the assumption this season is resolving the war in the South and preparing everyone for the war with the white walkers I don’t see Jamie being taken captive if (and it’s still an if) Jamie is the Valonquar. He needs to escape and presumably take out Cersei in the next couple of episodes (like either 6 or 7).
Fully agree, do we assume we are getting the Beric with his flaming sword from the trailer next episode?
It’s a Horcrux!
The irony that Mr. “Knowledge is Power” apparently had no clue about the weapon’s history is just so delicious that it gives me the shivers. It’s the sort of “insignificant” narrative flourish, easily missed, that makes a story especially compelling for me.
Danny,
What? Viserys sold her to the Dothraki for an army. I NEVER got the impression that he was anything other than completely abusive to her.
Are we supposed to think bad of Dany for letting her cruel abusive brother die?
Ginevra,
I have to assume it was the script / season summary leaks – the ones from Reddit – that had this difference. The leaked episode itself should have been the same (it was only sent to Star India early for translation purposes).
Jon Snowed,
Pray tell how Dany crossed any line. This is war. She’s not allowed to fight? Team Lannister slaughtered the Greyjoys, the Dornish and the Tyrells.
If you look at the preview for next episode, Dany allows enemy soldiers to drop their weapons and come over to her side. The safer option would be to kill them all as they pose a risk of backstabbing her later. But she takes the kinder option.
Enough with portraying her as some evil, vicious person. She’s not.
Jon Snowed,
Pray tell how Dany crossed any line. This is war. Is she not allowed to fight? Team Lannister slaughtered the Greyjoys, the Dornish and the Tyrells. She had to fightback.
If you look at the preview for next episode, Dany allows enemy soldiers to drop their weapons and come over to her side. The safer option would be to kill them all as they pose a risk of backstabbing her later. But she takes the kinder option.
Enough with portraying her as some evil, vicious person. She’s not.
Firannion,
Interesting. Who can you possibly root for then? There isn’t a single main character who doesn’t have blood on their hands?
Death is a part of war. Whether a guy gets stabbed with a sword or killed by dragon fire, he is no less dead. How many lives does Dany ultimately save by shortening the war and using her WMD’s to crush the Lannisters?
A vicious and evil person she is not but she is not a good person either. I can’t believe there are still people who are oblivious to this, did you not recognise Tyrion’s reaction?
I suggest you wait until you see next week’s episode before commenting on how it makes her look just, you don’t know what will happen yet.
Ginevra,
That dagger can’t have been used in the first war against the White Walkers unless Valyria existed then, as the dagger would have had to be forged there. Do we know that to be the case?
RG,
Makes me wonder if the story ends with a parallel to the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna: she dies in childbirth; he dies before the baby is born; or both.
Jon Snowed,
Ofc she is not pure good. You’d be foolish to look for those in GRRM’s books. But relative to the characters in the story, she is more good than bad. Just like Jon.
As for Tryion, please, he’s no moral compass and he’s no saint. Just another killer, like everyone in the story.
Boojam,
Obviously D&D don’t have complete knowledge of modern air power, the weapon Drogon comes closest to mimicking is the A-10 Warthog, not the F-16.
That’s exactly how I took it – “You’re joking!” or “No way!”
Succubint,
I completely missed that part of the dialogue; this means the Dothraki are only a day’s ride from KL. I guess by next episode Dany’s forces will begin surrounding the city for a siege. If Dany and Tyrion are smart enough they’d leave one gate open for those wishing to flee. Thereby reducing the innocents within the city.
She started the war. She is an invader, like her ancestor Aegon. She has no right to any throne in Westeros, any more than any usurper. She’s not a liberator, there are no slaves in Westeros for her to free, she just wants it all for herself.
Whoa. You’re watching the wrong show buddy. Maybe there is a channel called the ‘pacifist-safe space-snowflake’ channel you can watch.
Same hawkish rationale that people use for the US unleashing nuclear weapons on the world. Yeah, it probably saved some American lives, short-term. But wiping out 200K+ Japanese civilians with two bombs was horrific. And it brought a nightmare into the world that has not slept ever since, and may very well lead to our species’ mutual annihilation.
As others have pointed out, Dany is an invader. She is not defending her people from a Westerosi invasion, which might justify the use of dragonfire (just as Tyrion’s use of wildfire, while horrific in terms of human casualties, is far more morally defensible than Cersei’s use of it). She is the aggressor. She doesn’t have an ethical leg to stand on.
If you think that GRRM’s intent in writing this saga was to glorify war in any way, you haven’t been paying attention.
…Jaime tried to kill my girl! Damn you straight to hell, Jaime Lannister.
Twice in the show I’ve heard characters use the word “sold” to describe what was done to them. Sansa said it, and Hotpie said it. Tyrion, the elitist, claims there’s no slavery in Westeros anymore. Maybe he meant there’s indentured servitude and chattel slavery…you know how he’s tricksy with words.
I’m still reeling from this episode. Had to remind myself to breathe throughout it!
Firannion,
1) I was really just thinking about Westeros, down the rabbit whole I will go. It saved hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops and saved millions of Japanese soldiers and civilians all of whom were preparing to fight to the death to defend the Japanese home islands and especially the Emperor. If the Japanese didn’t want to get nuked, they shouldn’t have tried to conquer all of East Asia, nor attack the U.S. Furthermore, whether the U.S. used those weapons or not, their proliferation was guaranteed. That’s what all technology does, including weapons technology. That’s not even getting into what happens if Stalin gets into the war and expands the USSR further. Or at the very least creates a divided Japan.
2) Sure, Dany’s invading. But, it’s just as easy to say that she’s righting the situation by putting down the final usurpers and establishing her family’s proper place in Westeros.
It isn’t necessary to ‘root for’ anybody. It’s possible to feel sympathy for many. This was evident, of course, in that battle where we didn’t know whom to ‘support’ while equally feeling repugnance for the firepower and aversion towards the attempt to take out Drogon.
And this is in line with GRRM’s take on war. It’s awful, wherever it happens. There may be justifications – or not. And there is a difference between Dany’s attempt to free the slaves of Slavers’ Bay (though see Tyrion’s comments on that too) and the immolation of many soldiers simply for being ‘Lannister’.
Grandmaester Flash,
So, what? You don’t want to see wars being waged? You’re basically against the very nature of the story.
Firannion,
Who makes the call on what is and what is not morally defensible?
heh, I agree! Have you ever seen the pictures of what King Kong should really have looked like?
(And the zombies are even worse: the fluid buildup in their legs would make them basically immobile…. 😉 )
Indeed, given the morality of the Westerosi established on the show and in the books, that is exactly how she and everyone else sees what she is doing. This is similar to Jaime being derided as “Kingslayer” by people who were fighting against that King: Jaime was (in their opinion) morally obligated to defend their enemy to the death, not to kill him. They wanted Aerys dead, but it was wrong for Jaime to be the one to do it. With Daenerys, there are people who do not want her to be Queen, if only because they fear another Aerys: but they also would think less of her if she eschewed her dynastic obligations and stayed in Meereen growing olive trees. This is the difference between a “real” world and one with good and evil: a “good” enemy will fight you honorably, a “bad” enemy will sell out to you or flee in cowardice.
Why, the winners do, of course.
Nonsense, I said nothing of the sort. I said that Daenerys was the aggressor.
I don’t need a dragon to burn your straw man.
The nature of the story – the futility of war, the futility of revenge. And as to who makes the call – in this case, GRRM in the long run.
Have you read Feast/Dance? The devastated landscapes of war? There is a reason why these books are so long and complex, as they go into detail of what ordinary people, as well as those less ‘ordinary’, are subjected to.
In the case of the ‘loot’ battle, I’m wondering what else was ‘looted’ – aside from the crops of the farmers, taken by the Lannister army and now burned, what devastation was occasioned by the Dothraki as they advanced?
That’s my ulterior motive: I have shares in most of the major liquor distributing corporations, you know….. 😉
Firannion,
You haven’t been paying much attention either if you think he’s written the story to cater to perfect ethics and morality. There is not one character who has always stuck by ethical standards and moral values. GRRM may not be glorifying war but he’s also not glorifying a perfect dreamworld where there is only love and no hate, only peace and no wars.
Also your statement above that ones who declare/start the war have more immorality about them than the other side is just bizarre and frankly simplistic. Plenty of good has been achieved in this world because of many a uprisings.
I always attributed it to bad editing, myself: GRRM needed nowhere near as much writing to establish the desolation of war. (Quite frankly, he did a better job of communicating it with Arya’s trek northwards in Clash & Swords.)
But people do need to remember that there are not “good” and “bad” guys in these novels: there is Side A, Side B, Side C, etc. Now, you might not like some of the sides, and there are a small number of characters (e.g., Cersei) who are complete A-holes, but there are no orcs in this world.
Wimsey,
Agreed on Dany! 🙂
Lol, I love the comment about the winners deciding what’s moral. So true.
I have to disagree…the Orcs in this series are the White Walkers.
I’m almost certain the gold made it through Kings Landing gates… And why did Dany burn the food?
Indeed. And sides A, B, C will merge and change as the course of the world changes and Winter becomes more extreme. And certainly there are no orcs.
No. Whatever the agenda of the White Walkers is, we don’t know it. In LotR, the Orcs are allied variously to Saruman or to Sauron, and they seem to have a placing within the scheme of things which is to be the antithesis of Elves. They are therefore part of the general Middle Earth politicking and war. The White Walkers are ‘Other’ – in GRRM’s phrasing they are ‘Other’ because they are not understandable, they are working in a way that is not intelligible to the human population or indeed to us as human readers.
In D&D’s adaptation, their NK is given a backstory that relates him more to the Children and to the humans, but we still do not know the intentions and meanings of the WWs. In Tolkien, the Orcs are seen as ‘bad’ and the Elves ‘good’. Different universes.
Yes, the gold made it. What the Dothraki caught was the rear-guard with some part of the supplies.
And… because she’s a peroxide blonde? The horde might starve, but at least the dragons are safe – they like their food hard-baked.
Grandmaester Flash,
Again, your ‘Aggressor=Evil’ formula is too simplistic a thinking, detached from any logic or reality.
Aegon was a conqueror, he had unrivaled strength and used it to unite the Seven Kingdoms. Was that an evil or selfish act considering what followed was 300 years of relative peace?
Robert and Ned declared war against their King, they were aggressors but were they evil? The pain of losing his father and brother drove Ned, in Robert’s case its even worse-he wrongly assumed a Targaryen had stolen his love. Silly, selfish reasons to declare war that would lead to death of thousands. But did the result of their war accomplish good things or bad?
Dany believes Westeros to be her home, something that was stolen from her. She has spent most of her childhood evading attempts made at taking her life. She wants to take back what she feels is hers, she has the strength and she is not without support. On the other side, the Seven Kingdoms is at its worst state in centuries under Cersei’s rule. There is no unity, only chaos and as Varys would put it ‘The realm bleeds’. Is Dany evil for wanting to end this and build a new and better world?
Were Sansa and Jon wrong to declare war against Ramsey Bolton?
Was Stannis wrong in wanting to end first Joffrey, then Ramsey’s rule?
Were the Wildlings wrong to declare war against the Night’s watch?
Can you understand what I’m saying? Aggressors aren’t always immoral, defenders aren’t always moral and war brings new order along with casualty. A new order which may help bring about a better world.
We’re told by Tarly that the gold made it through to King’s Landing, yes. But, Tycho’s statement was about the gold reaching the Iron Bank, not Cersei in KL. And from KL to Braavos is quite a long way, by sea …
I haven’t seen any comments on this yet. All seem to assume that the Iron Bank has its gold. It doesn’t.
You read far more into my brief comments than I’ve actually said. I haven’t made the sweeping generalisations that you attribute to me.
I do not like Daenerys as a character. My dislike has grown over the seasons. I seem to be in the minority, but I’m not bothered.
Wimsey, I do agree that there is much that can be edited from Feast/Dance, but not the issues of the ordinary people as seen by e.g Brienne. I’d like some of Tyrion’s things edited down (not out), and some of the ‘overwriting’ by which I don’t mean length but do mean repetition. But they remain books that I read over and over, and indeed I’m currently re-reading Dance.
BranTheBlessed,
I don’t think anybody has said that aggressor = ‘evil’. Rather, some here are saying that Dany’s actions may be cause for concern. She was, however, in this episode written as directing her firepower against a part of an army, as an example, and not against the city.
(And that in part due to both Tyrion and Jon Snow’s comments.)
The result was still horrifying. We need to see, now, what the outcomes are and how it’s dealt with in the show.
That’s why she invaded the Seven Kingdoms is it?
Not the whole “I was born to rule the Seven Kingdoms. And I will” business?
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
And not the whole ‘you must bend the knee’ business! Which is just so much not the way to approach anything…
Exactly. She would still have invaded no matter who was on the throne, and if there had been decades of peaceful rule.
Grandmaester Flash,
No necessarily. She could have been persuaded – maybe – if the rule in the Seven Kingdoms seemed ‘good’, to focus on Essos and in particular Slavers’ Bay where it certainly wasn’t ‘good’…
But I take your point. She felt that she ‘should’ be the ruler, even though some of that might seem antithetical to her main focuses.
spaewife,
Ok, the Orcs are the opposite of the Elves and they are looking to eradicate and dominate all other life in Middle Earth.
The White Walkers are the opposite of everything warm blooded and are looking to eradicate and dominate all other life in Planetos.
I think the rest is semantics.
Pfft. Daenerys is an aggressor/foreign invader and usurper ( to be ). Same as her grand – grand…grandfader 300 years ago. Robert was an usurper too. So? It’s a medieval world, nothing shocking about someone with big enough army to lay claim at a title at least one level above their own. ( Thought it was funny how passionately she branded Robert “usurper” for doing exactly the same thing her ancestor did. Just without any lizards. )
What puzzles me is the “break the wheel” part. So far it’s just about shifting power from one house and it’s supporters to another. What seems a realistic goal is some sort of Northern style meritocracy. Which makes the repetitive “bend the knee” part of the script even more out of line. Good thing is this nuisance is not likely to last longer than 3 more episodes, at most.
Not in the show, and even in the books that was supposition by Jaime and Tyrion. The show seems to be implying it was Littlefinger’s all along, which in turn hints he sent the assassin to Bran. We’ll probably never know, but surely Bran does. FWIW, in another thread RG suggests it could be Dark Sister, which many of wanted/hoped Arya would get. IMO he’s on to something. If DS was shattered somehow, Catspaw may be fashioned from a fragment. Or maybe DS all along was an ornate dagger, but errors in chronicles called it a sword. In any case, because of the style and what we read in Sam’s book, I’d wager it was owned by an important Tragaryen.
You are right to say that European royal families may be an inaccurate parallel to draw with the Targaryens for, for the most part, the aristocracy of Europe kept their inbreeding “light”, favouring marriage either between uncles/aunts/nieces/nephews or between cousins of varying degrees of proximity.
The Dragons married and procreated mostly among siblings, either full or half. That is much more similar to the practices of certain pharaoh families in Ancient Egypt. And one would struggle to find a member of the Ptolemaic or the late Eighteenth dynasties without some severe-ish physical impairment resulting for inbreeding.
That being said, genetics is much more forgiving in Westeros so everything is alright ^^
Daenerys is free to do as she wishes; if she wants to conquer Westeros because she believes that it is her birthright and that she is the best person for the job, good for her ! It does not make her either good or bad; it simply makes her a normal ruler.
However, I believe one cannot deny the obvious contradiction between this position and the Mother of Dragons’s myth. Missandei told Jon she and her fellow disciples had chosen Daenerys as their queen, not because of the Targaryen lineage but because of their faith in her. She clearly stated that the Breaker of Chains was an elected monarch in their eyes, that they could leave her if they so wished without fear of retaliation or punishment.
The Field of Fire scene directly contradicted that statement and demonstrated that Westerosi do not have the luxury to “opt out” of Daenerys’s rule. The Targaryen queen intends to reign over the Seven Kingdoms whether said kingdoms like it or not. The Unsullied and the Dothraki were explictly told (by Daenerys herself) that they could choose not to follow her; the inhabitants of Westeros… Not so much.
Furthermore, Jon informed the Targaryen, in no uncertain terms, that Northerners would not accept a southern ruler after everything they had been through yet, instead of accepting the will of the people as expressed by their appointed ruler, Daenerys tried to push through. How is that, in any way, shape or form, similar to Missandei’s description of her queen’s care for consent ?
Daenerys being Aerys’s daughter may mean nothing to Missandei and her fellow Essosi but this very filiation (and the birthright associated with it) is the sole justification for the Mother of Dragons’s claim over the Seven Kingdoms…
In Essos, Daenerys is a revolutionary; in Westeros, she looks like “business as usual”. This dichotomy is at the centre of the character’s arc, I believe.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Because the island has nowhere for the horses to graze. Think about it.
TheRealwolf,
Or maybe it’s that they don’t think “I was abused as a child” is a valid excuse for doing horrible things as an adult. An explanation, maybe, but not an excuse.
For the record, I think that some of the more common Dany critiques are a bit overblown. For instance, burning the Lannister soldiers in last episode’s battle, while it sucked for the soldiers, was nevertheless justified against a military target. (That being said, burning a supply train full of food with winter coming really is unconscionable.)
But in the end, Daenerys Targaryen in Westeros is just a despot trying to rule people she knows or cares nothing about, basing her claim on the equivalent of the divine right of kings, whatever her rhetorical pretensions to the contrary. Her liberation of the slaves in the Ghiscari lands was admirable, but there are no slaves to free in Westeros. So unless she plans to institute land reform and other measures to improve the lot of the Westerosi peasantry, and she has given no indication that she does, she offers no liberation to the lower rungs of society there.
Maybe this makes her no worse than Cersei or Joffrey or Viserys, or any of the other highborn fuckers who have tried to claim the Iron Throne, but it certainly doesn’t justify the kind of messianic reputation she has in certain segments of the fandom.
Ginevra,
Maybe it could “de-dragonglass” Uncle Benjen!