The seventh season of Game of Thrones ended with a bang – or should I say a crash – with last night’s finale, “The Dragon and the Wolf.” The longest episode of the series not only delivered a heart-stopping finish, it gave us satisfying character moments and important revelations: Jaime’s rejection of Cersei (praise the old gods and the new!), the Starks turning the game on Littlefinger resulting in his execution (ditto), the consummation of Jonerys, and Bran and Sam putting the final piece in the Jon Snow parentage puzzle. The season is sadly over but the Game of Thrones content is not, so let’s break down the finale like Viserion broke down the Wall with today’s interviews and videos!
Entertainment Weekly kicks things off with Aidan Gillen, who shares his thoughts on Littlefinger’s death. He wasn’t completely surprised to get the infamous call, but it was still hard to process. “You’re left a little bereft – for your character and for your experience. It also immediately makes you quantify the hugeness of what that experience has been over the last seven years, which has been massive.” Gillen was ultimately satisfied with how it was portrayed. “It’s better to go out at the end of [the season] with a good arc then at the start of episode 2…I’m glad I had a good story to finish with.”
Gillen admits he guessed how his character would meet his demise. “I did an interview with a publication [in 2015] and they asked me how I thought I would go. I said I thought Arya would deliver the blow. So it was as promised. And even within the scene, as soon as he walks in that room and Arya produces the dagger he knows the game is up,” he says. “[Littlefinger] at least suspected the game was up back in episode four when Bran told him, ‘Chaos is a ladder.’ For Bran to come up with that is beyond coincidental. That’s when the ground started to shift beneath my feet.”
What was it like filming his death scene? “I did find it quite emotional. And I don’t necessarily mean that I was sad, but it’s an emotional moment for the character so I felt what he was feeling…Bryan Cogman called people in and said a few words and my son was there with me,” Gillen explains. “And I got my mockingbird pin. I had already let them know I wanted it, and I cleverly worked it so I got two. There’s one from my cloak and one from my tunic. So I got the large and the small size — one for me and one for my son.”
Showrunner David Benioff had a few words to say about Littlefinger’s death as well. In a separate EW interview, he confesses, “It was one of the harder death calls we had to make…The fact that Littlefinger looms so large when people talk about the show, and when we think about the show, it’s really a credit to Aidan. Every scene he’s in manages to make you think about Littlefinger. And when he’s at the center of a scene – like his final scene in the finale – he’s completely mesmerizing.” Benioff adds, “We’ve had a lot of death scenes on this show and this is one of the great ones. Diana Rigg [as Olenna Tyrell] was so true to her character in the end, and Littlefinger was so true to his character — in his own cowardly, horrible way.” I’m sure I speak for most fans when I say Littlefinger won’t be missed, but Aiden Gillen surely will.
Check out both interviews here and here.
Maisie Williams talks to Making Game of Thrones about what it was like for Arya to come home to Winterfell. “I was thrilled to do so many scenes with Sansa, but also horrified that we’d be making each other’s lives hell. But we had so much fun on set. I haven’t even set foot on the Winterfell set since Season 1. It was quite emotional,” she admits. “It’s what people have been waiting for, the Stark reunion – we just need Jon to get home and Arya will be much happier, I’m sure.”
Things weren’t all sunshine and roses for Arya this season, however. Williams explains, “It’s been her dream for a really long time and I think that’s one of the biggest issues: when she gets back everything has changed and nothing will ever be the same again. When she gets there, she realizes she wanted to be home so she could be back with her family, but they’ve all been through so much it’s kind of bittersweet. So in typical Arya fashion, she goes hunting for trouble a little bit, and she finds it. It’s a shame.” She adds, “Everyone wants a happy reunion but that’s not what’s going to happen on Game of Thrones; it’s not realistic for what they’ve been through.”
Many fans disliked the Arya and Sansa conflict, but Williams felt it was necessary. “It’s important to have this test of loyalty between them; to have something they overcome together as a team. I’m thrilled that we got something cool to do and that they finally got rid of Littlefinger because he was the only real kink in the way that the North was running. You can’t have that great payoff in the final episode if there isn’t a journey to get you there.” Williams the payoff was more for Sansa than Arya though. “Arya executes him, but it’s really Sansa’s scene. And it’s showing a huge progression for her. It’s the moment we’ve all been waiting for…It’s a beautiful way for her to end the season, and to end Littlefinger’s storyline.”
Head to Making Game of Thrones for more.
Making Game of Thrones also interviewed Nikolaj Coster-Waldau about Jaime’s character arc over the last seven seasons. “In many ways, he is a different man than he was before he lost his hand. I think before he would just use brute force, just knowing, ‘Hey, I’m stronger than you, so even if you don’t like this, I’m just going to do it and you’re going to have to deal with the consequences.’ He can’t do that anymore, but I think it’s made him a better commander. He has been forced to understand and use empathy,” he says. “We saw last season at Riverrun when he managed to avoid a violent conflict just by talking to Edmure Tully. Jaime used his own understanding that as a father there’s nothing more terrifying than the idea of your children being killed or hurt…Even though it was a very brutal thing to do to Edmure, it was worth it, it actually saved the lives of thousands of people.”
Coster-Waldau also weighs in on Jaime’s toxic relationship with his sister and lover, Cersei, and how her deception in the finale was the last straw. “That was the moment. She’s so cynical on a level that he doesn’t understand. You don’t give your word in front of the whole world and then just f**k ‘em. That’s too far. The fact is, yes there’s always been a lot of deceit, but Jaime is actually pretty straightforward when it comes to ‘walking the walk’ and all that,” he explains. “He’s thinking, ‘You commit to something, and you’ve just seen this thing is real, what the hell…?’ She takes it to a place that he can’t follow her to.”
Over at Esquire, Coster-Waldau share more insight into Jaime’s decision to leave. “Obviously, the right thing is what Cersei does to begin with – that they’re all going to fight this and see what happens after. Her argument before was that they have to fight these foreign invaders; now she’s suddenly saying that she’s getting an army of foreign invaders to fight for her,” he admits. “Fundamentally, it’s the wrong thing on any moral scale that he knows…She shows so little respect for him as a human being, as a counselor, as a partner, for everything. He’s had enough.” He adds, “When he says, ‘I don’t believe you,’ it’s not just that he doesn’t believe she’s going to kill him. For me, at least, it was more [like], ‘That’s it, I don’t love you anymore. You’re on your own.’ Why it took him so long, god only knows, but he got there in the end.”
Does Coster-Waldau have any thoughts on Jaime’s next move? “I do think he’s heading north, unless he’s tricking us all and goes south and just says, ‘I’m getting the hell out of here..’ The double-double-double cross. ‘I lost my hand, what am I even going to do up there?’ He could just be in a row boat getting away,” he jokes. “No, I do believe that he’s joining them in the north. You know there are all these swords of Valyrian steel, and you would think those five would all be somewhere in the mix.” Heading north? Let’s hope he has time to reunite with Brienne before it’s too late.
Read the full interviews at here and here.
Back at Entertainment Weekly, Emilia Clarke and Kit Harington share their feelings about Jon’s parentage and what it was like filming that love scene together. Clarke believes that Jon being Daenerys’ nephew could pose a problem, not only because of the incest but because Daenerys doesn’t want anyone taking her claim. “I’ve worked so hard, I don’t want to share that throne,” she explains. “No. The throne’s big enough for one dragon bum, and that’s mine. That’s it!” Of course, Daenerys was willing to make a marriage alliance as of last season, so who knows?
Clarke and Harington are friends, so Harington had a tough time getting into character for their big moment. “Usually you go into a movie and meet [your costar] for the first time and you develop that chemistry over that time,” he says. “But if you’ve known somebody for seven years and shared this incredible journey in your own lives together … we’re both kind of freaking out about it. I would be like, ‘What’s the sexual tension in this scene?’ and she’s like, ‘Stop talking about sexual tension!’”
That “sexual tension” developed over the course of the season, and Clarke admits that Daenerys was fighting her feelings in last week’s episode. “She’s just like: Why don’t I want you do go? Why don’t I want you — doooooon’t fall for him. Don’t do it! There’s a battle going in on herself.” Hopefully the two won’t battle each other when the truth about Jon is revealed. Harington doesn’t know what will happen when they find out. “That part of it, I can’t predict,” he confesses. “It could be them walking off into the sunset. It could be them killing each other.” Don’t crush the shippers dreams so soon, Kit.
Read the rest at EW.
Harington also speaks with Deadline about his expectations for the final season. He admits he doesn’t know what’s coming, but says, “I’m about to find that out as of quite soon when we get together and do a read-through for the final episodes, which I really can’t describe to you. Only a few people are privy to all that information but it’s what we’ve been waiting for for all these years. We’ve all been discussing in bars as actors and together on set what will happen in the final season…Of course, you guys won’t get to find out for a long time.” Don’t rub it in.
Harington does have some ideas for where the story will go, however, and it’s not pretty. “If you ask me what I think will happen I think it’s got to end with some serious fighting. You have to presume that that Army of the Dead is going to take a little while to get south, but we just don’t know. So it’s a hell of an ending because it’s the thing that we’ve all been waiting for, they’re now south of the Wall.” He adds, “With so few characters left, what [viewers] should get used to and get ready for next year is Thrones returning to form and killing its main characters quickly. They’re going to go, and they’re going to go fast, and I think that the payoff of our characters not being in great peril this year will be that, next year, it’s going to be a bloodbath.”
What does Harington hope fans take away from this penultimate season of Game of Thrones? “I think this has been a lot of like holding of breath this season, a lot of kind of huge amount of adrenaline that they’ve gone through, more so than most…we hit them with this very, very, very fast-paced, incredibly adrenaline-filled season where everyone meets, and a lot of things happen, and the dragons go batshit crazy,” he confesses. “I hope that instead of it being a slow roller coaster, I think that they’ll have enjoyed the pace that it’s picked up on, and then they’ll now know what they’re in for for the last one. They’ll now be used to this Thrones, which is a slightly different Thrones, but one where it always had to end. It had to end on this massive level.”
For more from Harington, head to Deadline.
The Hollywood Reporter checks in with Liam Cunningham who discusses the fall of the Wall, Jon’s legitimacy, and what really matters as we approach the endgame. Cunningham share his reaction to reading about the Wall collapsing in the script, saying, “There was an inevitability about it, really…you know it’s going to come up somewhere down the line. It’s only taken us seven years to get to the point where they’re coming across to take on the Seven Kingdoms. So there was obviously an inevitability about it. That’s what’s so exciting about the show. How are they going to do it? How are they going to make it work? How are they going to make it look gorgeous? I think they’ve managed to do that.”
What does Cunningham think will happen now that Jon Snow has a claim to the Iron Throne? “He has the rights to be the king. Don’t forget, in episode six, which we saw last Sunday, he just bent the knee, even though he was in bed at the time. He has metaphorically said he’s bending the knee to his queen…Is he going to turn around to her and go, ‘So, about that knee that I bent…’ That’s going to make things incredibly awkward, in the middle of a having a hundred thousand White Walkers and wights and the Night King coming through the Wall.” He adds, “I think the priority is going to be to save the place first, and work out the politics a bit later on.”
Cunningham believes that all the petty squabbling over Westeros needs to be put aside for the war to come. “We’ve gone from politics and diplomacy, and now we’re into survival. That’s what the priority is,” he explains. “The bad guys and the good guys are going to have to come together now, to sort out the really bad guy: the Night King. I’m interested to see it. We obviously haven’t seen the scripts [for the final season], but I’m interested to see what the dynamics are going to be. Differences are going to have to be put aside.” Let’s hope Cersei finally sees reason…but I’m not holding my breath.
Go to THR for more.
In this season’s final “Inside the Episode,” David Benioff and D.B. Weiss share insight into the feigned Arya/Sansa conflict resulting in Littlefinger’s death, the conflicting factions meeting in the Dragonpit, Jaime’s decision to – finally! – leave Cersei, Jon’s claim to the Iron Throne and how it could complicate things with Daenerys, and the powerful and devastating moment when the Wall came tumbling down.
The cast and crew break down character relationships and the politics of the Dragonpit scene.
Finally, Emilia Clarke, Kit Harington, Peter Dinklage, and Isaac Hempstead Wright discuss the ramifications of Jon’s parentage and his relationship with Daenerys.
Hodor
OK that’s adorable Aiden… provided you don’t teach him to actually take after Littlefinger too much! 🙂
They better fix that awful NK/Viserion CGI next season. What a disaster
“There are two things: It could be that The Mountain didn’t understand the hand signals. She was signaling, “Just kill him,” but he didn’t get it. So they can have a big scene afterward where she goes to Qyburn and says, “You gotta train this monster.” I was giving him the signal and he just stood there. [Laughs] I don’t know….He’s really thick. That’s the problem when you bring someone back from the dead: They’re very dumb. You have to be really specific with your orders.”
NCW… sort of… answers my question about why The Mountain didn’t kill Jaime… lol
OH Jaime… I can’t wait for next season. I actually now love the fact that Cersei is pregnant. Now he’s going to be tormented by that fact even as he has tried to break from her there is still that tiny thread… and Tormented Jaime is much more interesting…
So does anyone else think Tyrion has betrayed Team Dani in his meeting with the Big Sis?
Great cast commentary. They all understand that the show has picked up pace and the storylines have collided and that slow moving politics is now secondary to the great threat so the Game of Thrones that people long for from seasons 1 to 4 or even 5 is just different because the stakes have changed. Everything has changed.
I guess Nikolaj was watching a different scene because there were no hand signals. Cersei nodded at Mountain giving him the order to kill Jaime and he even took his sword out and just let Jaime walk away. Confusing all around.
Lol I see they’re trying to trick us into thinking there will be a Targbowl.
(Everyone groans and rolls eyes)
I love my mockingbird pin (I rehab wild birds). 😊 Too cute, Aidan.
I do wish The Dragon and the Wolf had a literal wolf. COUGH. Since there was a dragon. Pixelated cardboard cutout would have been fine, just sayin.
lol…. suuuuuuuure bud, thats not hyperbole at all
Not confusing. She nodded toward the mountain and he unsheathed his sword ready. Maybe he was waiting for a verbal command.
You really sweat minor negligible things.
Would you have preferred if after Jamie said “are you going to tell him to kill me” that the mountain would have unsheathed his sword as if ready at the command and then Jamie said “you won’t do it” and walked off?
Maybe that is how you would have directed it but at the end of the day the point is Cersei did not follow through to have him killed.
Just like Jon was 100% dead and the Starks would duke it out despite offering each other WF already. They love to troll.
But there were no hand signals. Maybe they edited it? Nikolaj must have been referring to the way it was originally filmed because there is a nod in the final cut.
It got better as the scene went on, but the first time Viserion swooped in and hit the Wall right before Tormund yelled “run!” It looked like something out of a CW superhero show.
It’s hard to see how the revelation of Jon’s parentage will play out.
There’s no indication, as Emilia says, that Dany would be possessive of her claim to the throne. We know her greatest regret is that she (thinks) she’s the last of her house. To learn that she isn’t wouldn’t necessarily cause her to turn against a man she loves. Secondly, Jon doesn’t want the throne – he has no political ambition so he’s essentially a perfect partner for her. Finally – and this will depend on whether all the foreshadowing is correct – if Dany becomes pregnant, then she and Jon have a vested interest to marry because Day wants nothing more than for a child and heir, and Jon absolutely would not want his child to be born a bastard.
Jack Bauer 24,
This has nothing to do with the content of this post. Go create a forum topic for this obsession of yours and stop spamming these comments sections.
Jack Bauer 24,
The director might have cut it from the final cut or we just dont see it in frame.
It is nice to get confirmation that the conflict was genuine and not all a fabrication from the beginning.
Violator,
There’s no indication Dany would be possessive of the throne????? Wut?
I wish I was as cool as Jaime. I would have started running as soon as I heard the sword unsheathe and screamed at Cersei from a safer distance.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
hodor
Nope, I don’t. He’s all in and honest, about her and about his family. He never wanted to destroy the family, but at this point Cersei is ensuring that it completely disappears. Joining her would be foolish. As with Cersei’s plan, if he were to have any involvement in it, the ruse is over once the Lannister army doesn’t show up in The North. That and Jaime showing up and telling them. He wants a ruler that cares about the people, one that wants to protect them before anything else. Cersei only cares about herself at this point. Like viewers he has to wonder why she even wants to be queen. She’s all pride at this point.
I also don’t think there’s more to his look at Daenerys’ door on the boat than what Peter says Tyrion could be thinking. He’s her Hand and very much a part of helping her attain the throne and ‘making the world a better place.’ Even without yet knowing who Jon really is he can see that love and deep feelings for someone can really muddy her decisions.
We can use the words Aemon said to Jon about the NW not having wives and families to how Tyrion may be thinking about their relationship. A political alliance and/or marriage is one thing but being truly in love is quite another. I believe that’s what we’re suppose to be seeing; love. They weren’t setting up a ‘lust’ relationship or one built solely on sexual gratification such as Daenerys with Daario. It truly bugs me to continue to see people abhorred by the though of them together and I fear D&D writing too much of an issue with it next season because of modern morals. They don’t live in our modern world dangit! ALL of the Houses of Westeros are built on married relatives, including theirs on both sides. While ‘we’ can have an issue with it they should not ‘that much.’ Shocked to find out of course, but not the kind that kills love. The biggest issue should be coming to terms with the succession to the throne… If they were to be together though that would make them king and queen anyway…
The article links to a video where Benioff and Weiss talk about the final scene. My post is very on topic
To the Jon/Dany relationship, I think you make a very important distinction between love and lust. With them, it’s love and how that complicates things once the truth is known will be both internal and external. I don’t think Jon will seek the throne but how he deals with being in love with his aunt, feelings that won’t just magically disappear no matter who is creeped out, will be just a continuation of what Beric told him: he’ll not get much joy in this life. Externally, this will affect him more so than being resurrected.
I have yet to consider Dany’s pov…
And, I appreciate your perspective on Tyrion’s loyalty. I’m sure this will be a debatable/much speculated upon topic going forward.
Jack Bauer 24,
I haven’t gotten a chance to assess the ice dragon CGI yet. (I watched the episode on a crappy little TV: good audio; bad visual). My rewatch will be on a nice big high-def flat screen.
However, unlike GRRM who can take as long as he wants to write a book (or to be more precise, never write it), I figure with the TV show’s tight schedule and fixed deadlines sometimes not everything comes out perfectly, and they just have to go with what they’ve got.
The sheer magnitude of the production makes it almost inevitable that some aspect of an episode comes out wobbly. But they don’t have time to go back and re-do it.
Unless something really sucks, I try to give them a pass.
Southern Khaleesi,
I don’t think he betrayed her intentionally. But i think he betrayed her by having ulterior motives of trying to save his family in the bad counsel he gave her.
Flayed Potatoes,
Prior to season 7 they were heavily hyping up the tension between Sansa and Jon, and although there were some issues, they talked about it and moved forward. I always feel there is a smoke screen they choose to try to hide everything else that may be happening.
Okay, so I’ve spent some time watching the ice dragon attack, and can definitively say there’s no way Tormund and Beric survived.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QMQOJTYRBU
Jumping to 3:05, you can see them running away from a collapsing section, red shirts dying as red shirts are wont to do, but most importantly.. blue flame reflecting against the left wall. This means the dragon is to the right, and T+B were running towards the sea-end of Eastwatch from the collapsed section. Then watch through 3:40 and see what happens to the sea-end of Eastwatch.
Violator,
I agree. Unless i fundamentally misunderstand the characters I just don’t see how this turns into actual conflict versus working through serious issues but in the context of an amicable relationship.
Dutch Maester,
I have not watched the embedded videos or read the cited interviews, but thr article itself says the showrunners talk about “the powerful and devastating moment when the Wall came tumbling down.”
Isn’t that the scene with the ice dragon that Jack was talking about?
To be honest, if Jon and Dany end up fighting each other i don’t know why I spent years watching this show and reading these books. Feels completley nihilistic to build the whole story around two revolutionary leaders destined to save the world only for them to end up at each other’s throats. What the hell was the point…
Ginevra,
Is there any indication when the sisters’ catfight ended and their collaborstion commenced? I’m having trouble downlisding the interviews, and could not tell from the epidodes themselves.
Obviously, at some point they talked out everything, realized LF was screwing with both of them, and scripted the series of “Do you deny it?” accusations.
Hivju and Dormer https://www.instagram.com/p/BYWQYvJA_9d/
The WF plot has been confusing but the only scenario that makes sense to me is after Arya handed the dagger to Sansa. That’s when she probably got more info from Bran and decided to have LF executed
House Monty,
To be fair, Dany knew Tyrion might have conflicts of interest that could impair his judgment when she named him Hand. He was upfront about his love and trust for his brother.
That was one reason why I wondered why she let Jorah go wight-hunting. He’s more valuable as an advisor. (Didn’t she tell him something to that effect a few seasons ago when he volunteered to fight one on one against that urinating fighter outside the walls of one of the cities she conquered?)
Precisely. I think we can just about rule out the ‘mad queen theory’ with just six episodes to go. When they have I’d say most of the rest of the story being trying to defend and live against an army of dead men, qualms about their relationship and concerns about the rightful heir should be almost a subplot. They spent this entire season working on putting that dispute on the back burner. Those issues will probably resolve themselves as the Great War is happening.
Ten Bears,
Yea. Her biggest mistake was naming him Hand. Really tragic situation.
Grayven Reyne,
Im certain they live. The last we see of them they are looking in the direction of the collapse. If in the show it looks like they are running towards the sea side of the wall, then its going to simply be an editing issue.
I doubt DnD would just have them go so unceremoniously like that.
Anything is possible, but I don’t think all that talk about Beric being resurrected for a higher purpose would make much sense if he unceremoniously dies from The Wall collapsing.
Liam Cunningham’s speculation about S8:
“The bad guys and the good guys are going to have to come together now, to sort out the really bad guy: the Night King.”
Isn’t it a bit presumptuous to call the Night King the “really bad guy.” ?
Jack Bauer 24,
Bran told LF to his face what he did to Ned in front of everyone there so yes, Bran was part of it. DnD just didnt choose to show any Sansa/Bran discussions beforehand. They wanted us surprised as LF was.
I agree! You’ve mentioned that simple, inexpensive cutout before….they need to listen! I don’t have the computer skills but I could see someone taking a bunch of iconic still shots from this season and pasting an image of Ghost in them, somewhere, anywhere!
Mr Derp,
“Unceremoniously” seems to be the word of the day!
Ten Bears,
Seems like a really bad guy to me, lol, but hey, to be fair, we haven’t gotten to know the Night King very well on a personal level. We need turn-ons, turn-offs, etc…
The only issue with that is Bran told him “chaos is a ladder” before Arya/Sansa started their arguing. So why did Bran take so long to ought LF?
Grayven Reyne,
I didn’t quite study the scene (yet), but one thing I noticed is the blue flame basically punching through the wall AKA the glow being visible on both sides.
Then there’s always the possibility they screwed up the positions when filming it.
Alright, I read something today that was rather … surprising about the end of Season 7.
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2017/08/28/game-of-thrones-showrunners-on-season-7s-dramatic-ending
IGN.com is featuring an interview with DB Weiss. On the Fall of the Wall, DB Weiss had this to say:
“The wall’s kept these things out for eight thousand years and there’s no really reason it can’t keep doing that unless something puts a hole in the wall,” Weiss explained. “There’s one thing on the board from the beginning that is now big enough to do that and that’s a dragon.” As such, Weiss said that having the undead dragon blaze a hole through the wall “just started to suggest itself as a logical way forward.“
Did you all get that? Let me repeat, the words of DB Weiss:
“JUST STARTED TO SUGGEST ITSELF AS A LOGICAL WAY FORWARD.”
If that quote is accurate. then despite having extensive discussions with George and notes of all that George has planned, George has no current plan for the Fall of the Wall.
It may not even fall in the books.
D&D just MADE UP THE FALL OF THE WALL.
I appreciate that the books and the show are different. I accept that. I can enjoy the two as separate things. But the most important event in the series would be the Fall of the Wall.
And they just confessed that they made it up. It’s not in GRRM’s plans, notes, or otherwise. It may NEVER fall in his book.
That is how far away we are from GRRM’s tale right now.
WOW.
I just don’t see how it would have broken the budget to show Ghost once? How expensive would it have been to have him in the scene when Jon and everyone were in the Great Hall?
If only there was a prize for mentioning it without knowing!
TOIVA,
Take a look at the time point I mentioned.. the blue flame reflection is only on the left side of the scene.
Again, the writers can and will do whatever they want, but there is no ambiguity in what was filmed.
Every season since the fifth one Sansa gets a confusing plot that leaves viewers perplexed.
S5: How is she getting revenge on the Boltons by marrying into their family?
S6: Why didn’t she tell Jon about the knights of the Vale?
S7: For how long has she and Arya been plotting against LF (if they were at all…)?
Queen of ambiguity…
For the same reason Bran knew Jon wasnt a Stark but didnt know he was legitimate. Bran needed Sams information to know what to look for and when.
With LF, he had to go searching into the past, not knowing what date or location to go to. Bran has power but he isnt all knowing.
Well in that, they did a great job, because even after the season is over, the Starks united as a pack and Littlefinger dead, we still don’t know what happened.
Four inconsistences or gaps bugged me about that scene:
1: It is unclear when Sansa was on to Littlefinger, and how much of her and Arya’s obtuseness was faked. Good writing would have cleared this up. Great writing would have given us a “Sixth Sense” moment and caused us to completely re-evaluate everyone’s actions throughout the season. Instead, all we got was confusion on this point.
2: When did Bran have his vision of Littlefinger’s betray of Ned? If it was a while ago, either he or Sansa sat on this information…but why? And if it was recently, that’s just another deus extiming coincidence, and thus sloppy writing. Even sloppier? Not letting us know which slop we were fed.
3: Sansa effectively had two reasons for executing Littlefinger – waking up to the horrible things she already knew he did after Littlefinger gave her the “imagine the worst in peoples’ motives” lecture, and the BranVision of Littlefinger’s betrayal. Unfortunately the latter undercuts the former, because it alone is far more justification than is necessary, which in turn implies that Sansa’s character progression was irrelevant.
4: The whole fakery around trying Arya for treason made no sense. Yes, it was a heap of TV Drama, but within the context of Winterfell, it was unnecessary. Sansa would have simply had Littlefinger arrested the moment she learned he betrayed Ned, called in the bannermen to witness the trial, and then have him killed. The whole Arya thing added nothing towards confirming his guilt or innocence, so what was it for other than TV?
maybe
Steel_Wind,
Take a step back. Thats not proof GRRM doesnt plan on it happening. It just might not be done the same way. Dont freak out over an interview. DnD werent under oath.
Why were you surprised? Littlefinger’s death was completely logical from a story point of view, and prophecied in the books as well to occur in by Sansa hand in a “castle of snow”. He’s been a dead man walking for more than a year now.
Though admittedly, I was wrong about the vector. I was hoping that it would be the Hound, not BranVision, that brought news of Littlefinger’s betrayal of Ned. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is how it works out in TWOW, as the Hound and Sansa have a somewhat tighter relationship in the book, it’s better from a story perspective, and honestly, the Hound hasn’t done anything worthy of a come-back-from-the-dead character on TV yet. Yes, we will probably get CleganeBowl next year (heck, I thought it might be yesterday), but simple revenge isn’t enough to bring someone back like that.
Grayven Reyne,
Alright, I took a look. Indeed it looks like them being on the side toward the sea would fit better. But frankly the reflections and glows are all around thanks to the fog/clouds. Not one shot there clearly put the two on any particular side.
In other words, if they live, I have no problem with it. And I believe they are supposed to still be alive. The visual in question would then be an editing problem.
Oh I agree as to the first part. It may well fall. Or they may go around it – or have the snows fall hundred feet deep, whip up the winds to a massive snow drift and just *walk over the top*
Who knows?
But we do know that if it does, it’s not like that. They just made it up.
Pretty massive plot point for GRRM not to have some sort of plan. Which means that they have diverged so much that they can’t even use GRRM’s material here.
That’s not a small point.
Ginevra,
This is helpful. Since we never see or hear of them discussing LF and what to do about him in the show, it was open to interpretation. I’m one who thought it was possible that the tensions were all part of Arya, Sansa, and Bran’s ruse to draw LF out starting sometime after the Godswood scene but since we now actually have one of the participants commenting on the tensions, that helps set the time of the plan to deal with LF later in the season.
I wish it had been otherwise because I would like to think Bran would have told them at the Godswood what LF had done to Ned right away and not wait. But then maybe he did not know then, just like he did not know about the R + L wedding. Oh well, as Thoros would say, “funny old life.”
Ten Bears,
I think it must have happened after the last meeting with Littlefinger, right before. Sansa at that point must have given the dagger to Arya.
Right, just sitting under the table or in the corner chewing on a bone or snoozing!
House Monty,
If the whole point is just for them to come together and save the world, then that’s not particularly inspiring either, is it?
I didn’t watch this show just to see the two most heroes eventually end up saving the world together against a generic evil army/leader, and an evil queen to boot.
By all means, they can have their fun and team up to take on the bad guys. But when it comes down to it, I want drama.
If there’s conflict to be had – and they’ve set up potential conflict with the legitimacy / rightful heir issue – then I want to see it.
And I don’t want every other character relegated to playing second fiddle to their double act either.
If pitting them against one another, one way or another, will give other characters an opportunity to shine as well, then I say let’s have it.
His is the song of ice and fire. All these years we thought it was about Jon, but what character does that description fit better than an ice demon riding a dragon?
There will probably be some drama with AeJon and Dany but I really can’t see it being much. There are only 6 episodes left and that enormous AotD and Ice Dragon would be on everyone’s minds after the TER tells them what happens. There has also been much talk about succession and if Dany does get pregnant that will play in to it.
I started to re watch the season just now and it occurred to me that if Arya had just carried out her mission that everyone would be in a little better situation. And that made me think that if Jamie does ride north to let everyone know what Cersei is planning that the absolute best use of Arya would be to go all faceless man on her. I know prophecy but that wasn’t a part of show prophecy.
Anyhow really enjoyed the season. It made me cheer when Dany attacked with the Dothraki and Drogon. It made me boo when Euron took Yara and Theon ran. It made me feel warm and fuzzy when Jorah finally returned to his Khaleesi. It made feel completely terrified when the Night King one shots Viserion. Yeah it didn’t make sense sometimes when it came to travel times etc. and the northern storyline was pretty forgettable (minus the final scene when Arya brutally executes Baelish) but overall it was pretty dang good.
I remember when I first read somewhere online that Viserion would die and be raised by the NK I actually replied “no way, that’s stupid”. Then I read a the leaks and actually liked it and it turned out pretty good. I hope to avoid spoilers for season 8 but the net is dark and full of spoilers.
Chad Brick,
Lots of good points.
The producers have basically admitted on the Inside the Episode for episode 7 that they manufactured the drama and confusion just so that they could have the tables-turned pay-off scene in the Great Hall.
And that they were aiming for the viewers being unable to determine whether or not Arya or Sansa intended to kill the other.
But, as you point out, the resolution left the viewers none the wiser as to who knew what and how things actually went down.
It wasn’t like the Keyser Soze or Sixth Sense reveal, where the viewer realises everything’s been staring them in the face the whole time. And it wasn’t like a traditional ‘whodunnit’ where the characters kindly reveal exactly how things went down and when they realised the truth.
Instead the viewers are just left wondering when the hell this unnecessary conspiracy was concocted, who knew what and at what point, and whether anything anybody’s been saying over the last few episodes was true at all.
Steel_Wind,
Uh, are you serious? You can’t possibly believe the Wall won’t fall in the books too. A dragon being the cause of it might not be the case, but that sucker will fall. My guess is because of some magical horn.
Steel_Wind,
They can’t adapt what is not written. This seems like such a trivial thing to argue. Frankly, I prefer an ice dragon tearing it down to a magic horn or any of your suggestions.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I just can’t wrap my head around Jon trying to push his claim to the throne. That is not true to his character. The conflict would have to come from others trying to get him to. And even then, if Dany is pregnant, that should end any conflict between the two. As was pointed out up thread, Dany would want an heir and Jon would never want to father a bastard. So hello marriage!
Just rewatched the ToJ scene from 610 and you can see Lyanna mouth “Aegon” and the camera cuts away. Pretty cool.
But what’s weird is she says “If Robert finds out he will kill him you know we will, you have to protect him promise me Ned”, but in 710 right after Lyanna says Aegon Targaryen she says “you have to protect him promise me Ned”. They completely cut the Robert part.
Continuity error?
Well I personally wasnt surprised. Like you said, it made sense, and if youve been on this site a while, the scripts were leaked a year or so ago, so all of the major plot points were already known about by anyone who didnt mind spoilers.
I was simply stating that DnD wanted the “audience” to be as surprised as Little Finger was. Even if most people watching figured that his days were numbered.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
I dont think DnD were trying to make this a 6th Sense shocking reveal that would blow your mind. That was an 80 minute episode, and people still complain that things werent spelled out enough for their liking.
They made the editorial decision in how they were going to carry on past the books to finish the story, and they (rightly or wrongly) decided that some things just werent that important as long as the main storylines were fulfilled.
Its clear that Bran had visions of LF (chaos is a ladder), and that he had more that we just didnt see on screen. LF going through the mindset of what Aryas motives would be, frankly is what tipped Sansa over the top. Sansa already knew LF killed Lysa, she already knew that he told her that every thing he does, he closes his eyes and in his mind decides if it will lead to him of the throne etc.
In the last scene where LF is trying to get Sansa to understand Aryas motives, that she might want to be the Lady of Winterfell, I think it finally clicks that LF is trying to play them against eachother, using his own logic against him.
Bran letting her know about what he did to Ned was just the icing on the cake to confirm that his time was finished.
It doesnt seem that strange or far fetched to me honestly.
I mostly avoided this site this year because of the spoilers (well that and our baby). Nothing surprised me at all this year though. I was disappointed. Hopefully D&D and/or GRRM have one more good twist left in the tank for next year.
I like this. Thanks
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Agreed 100%
Grayven Reyne,
So there will be no beautiful giant babies born to Thormond and Brienne….heartbreaking it is.
Ten Bears,
Survival, right? He’s not human and he intends to kill humans. To humans he would definitely be the “ultimate bad guy.” If Aliens came to earth and started killing people left and right without provocation, would we try to figure out how good or bad they are or would we just assume they are super bad because they are trying to kill us? Knowing us we would assume they are evil and would do whatever it took to defeat them, even band together. Something we rarely ever do.
Southern Khaleesi,
Yes, this is my biggest question after the finale! First, I wondered how he got out of that private meeting alive. Then that look in the hallway during boat sex. Resignation that he will never have her, or guilt that he is going to betray them? He has always relished his status as a Lannister, and feels tremendous guilt for murdering his father, and sadness for the loss of Myrcella and Tommen. The look on his face when he asked if she was pregnant was almost happiness that he would have another niece or nephew, and then we are back in the Dragonpit.
After a rewatch, I’m thinking that Cersei played him and pretended to compromise with him for the sole purpose of getting him to assure Dany that she could go safely North and not worry about losing her lands. And then Cersei is going to reclaim Dragonstone and Casterly Rock the minute Dany heads north.
So I’m back to thinking that he was just sad that Dany doesn’t love him.
TOIVA,
Watch it again. When they leave the watchtower hanging off the wall, they go away from the sea. Facing north, the sea is on the right. Tormund and Beric go the other direction.
Pigeon,
Lol! Hey, let’s just have normal size huskies. I don’t care if the wolves are the size of grizzly bears!
Jack Bauer 24,
Dude, I know your receive huge amounts of hate in this forum, but god, is there anything you like about the show? Like….anything at all? If not, I would recommend you to stop watching it, for your health fundamentally, this amounts of frustration from “such a bad show” could en up in a hernia.
Alright so I actually read the leaked script (the 126 pages) and it said that Sansa realized about LF’s plan when he told her about Brienne, that’s why she sent her away, so there you go, however, I don’t mind that it was an ambiguous plot, I actually liked it.
Fair question I have to ask: what is any character struggling with on this show anymore? What Tyrion struggling with? Arya? Sansa? Brienne? This show has become so hollow emotionally, it’s ridiculous, but I guess as long as there are zombies and dragons all is good.
Steel_Wind,
I think that you’re focusing on the wrong thing here. The point *to* focus on is that GRRM has no plan how to execute one of the most important moments in his series. That’s how lost the man is in his own plot.
A Northerner Never forgets,
People, just think about the Tormund-Beric survival in cinematic terms. I think it’s likely that we start the next season with the sight of the two getting out of the sea/off that unbroken Wall, Beric dying of wounds (first casualty of the season!) saying some last words to Tormund. Or vice versa.
Chad Brick,
No, actually the writing around Sansa/Arya is pretty clear, people are just idiots who refuse to believe that Arya would seriously threaten Sansa (she would’ve, as of the previous episode). The feud was in all seriousness until this episode, when LF coached Sansa into thinking the worst of everyone. That’s when Sansa turned the game on LF, realised that he wanted *her* to kill *Arya,* and so went to Bran, *together* with Arya (in the court scene, Arya said ‘this was your dagger, not Tyrion’s, which she could have learned only from Bran). That’s when the pack finally formed. As for why Bran had not said anything before, he was stoned out of his mind. Well, treed.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Dany and Jon will soon have plenty to emotionally struggle with. As will Jaime, with his complicity in Cersei’s crimes, starting from pushing Bran off that windowsill.
You can’t blame the show for laying the ground to focusing on these characters’ emotional issues by dealing with the other people’s first, can you? It’s just good hygiene.
For years, I’ve been saying that GoT is essentially three stories in one: Sansa-Arya avenging Ned, Jaime being in a love triangle with Cersei and Brienne, and the Great War. I’m pleased to say that my framing continues to check out. The first story is now checked off the board (the heroines can now probably rest, Eowyn-like, reconnecting with their love interests, Tyrion and Gendry). The second and the third moved forward in a major way, Jaime moving to the Brienne corner of the triangle and Dany and Jon hooking up. These are the stories that will have the most emotional charge next season. The Jaime-Brienne romance, then Jaime leaving Brienne to do… the honourable thing; and the Dany-Jon relationship.
I asked you for an explanation of this criticism on the other thread and you did not answer me.
Just trolling Jack?
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Happy to get some confirmation now that the feud was actual for much of the season. I tried hard to make it work that it was a co-operative plan from earlier but it really didn’t quite gel at all with what we saw and heard, it would have been inconsistent after all.
Steel_Wind,
If that is the case then Joramun’s Horn / Horn of Winter which has been hung out there by GRRM is a massive red herring. I can’t believe that the Wall won’t fall in the books TBH, just a question of how with GRRM still “gardening”.
I saw the episode on a small screen so any problems on the ice dragon CGI didn’t show up.
Now, usually I say that detractors have a right to a point of view but, crumbs, some of the criticism the last couple of days has been nit-picky. On one of the threads yesterday some folk (admittedly in the minority) were complaining that the Rhaegar actor wasn’t spectacular looking enough. Beauty’s in the eye of the beholder, but was Rhaegar even on screen for a minute? I’m not sure he was and in his Rhaegar get-up the actor did look something like Harry Lloyd.
1. Where did Jack write it was “such a bad show”?
2. How could a quantum of frustration end up in a hernia?
Southern Khaleesi,
No, it would make absolutely no sence, he hates her and doesnt trust her.
No, it is much more likely that GRRM knows exactly how the Wall falls, and it simply incompatible with the diverged story that D&D and written. Hence they had to come up with something different. Heck, it is not unlikely that GRRM has already written the Wall’s fall, if it occurs at the end of TWOW.
As for the Starks, whatever the cockamamie story is that you can invent in your head, my entire point is that you shouldn’t have to guess at it after the fact. Strategic ambiguity can be good (like Kaiser Soze), but this was just a mess. Note that your story requires lucky timing (Bran coming out of it at just the right time).
I enjoy the reviews that are expressing my feelings about the show and the season finale: it was f…amazing!!! 🙂 I was suprised to see some negative ones.
That said, I really won’t get into any discussion about it: there are millions of people who disagree with ill advised reviews and negativity and watch the show with the same excitement and joy as ever. That is the answer to all those who try to get a few more reads and references by trying to degrade the show.
Here are three screenshots that clearly put them on the eastern side.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B41fygsfldklWm16U3ZzNGRLMjg
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B41fygsfldklR19Rcy1JWVg1WEk
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B41fygsfldklclB6U290V1ZMd1U
Nope. If he knew, DnD would know; why would they choose to strain themselves to invent something else? It’s not like they want to have to invent the plot; they have to because it doesn’t exist.
GRRM is so lost, I’d love to laugh at him, except it’s actually pretty sad.
‘Making your viewer guess after the fact’ is a time-honoured tradition when it comes to plots, what are you on about? Would you prefer a straight-on scene of the Starks plotting together to make it clear to you?
And no, no lucky timing is needed. As this very episode demonstrated, Bran is fully capable of reaching into the timestream if asked the correct question. All that was really needed was Sansa realising what the correct question was.
QueenofThrones,
Also, why didn’t he try protect Cersei when that wight was gunning for her?
Flayed Potatoes,
In the words of Jon Snow: “There’s no time for that. There’s no time for any of this!”
Them trying to make us suspicious might work if it were a normal 10 episode season but the fact it’s shortened almost by half tells us there won’t be time for a true Targbowl. Matter of fact I don’t know how everything can be wrapped up to all of our satisfaction unless the episodes are longer.
Besides, you don’t go from falling in love to turning on one another just like that lol.
Grayven Reyne,
If Tormund and Beric died, they would have their own post-mortem page or would have been included here.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Except that interpretation requires us to accept that Sansa and Arya are both complete morons. And funnily enough, I don’t find that a particularly satisfying resolution.
Although they would be in good company this season, alongside Jon, Tyrion, Jaime etc. who have also been unsatisfactorily depicted as idiotic in various fashions.
But even if we accept that Sansa only caught on to Littlefinger’s ploy in their penultimate scene, it contradicts most of what she’s said since 6×05.
“I don’t believe you anymore”.
“Only a fool would trust Littlefinger”.
“You’ve declared for other houses before, Lord Baelish. It’s never stopped you from serving yourself”
Brienne: “Why is he still here?” – Sansa: “*sighs* We need his men. Without The Vale Ramsay Bolton would still hold this castle”
“He’s not a generous man. He wouldn’t give you anything unless he thought he was getting something back”
“Do you know how happy Cersei would be right now if she saw us fighting? This is exactly what she wants? This is what she’s always wanted. To tear us apart” – so she can immediately recognise the benefit of their infighting to Cersei, but not to Littlefinger?
Not to mention all her positive interactions with Jon which undermine the idea that she would ever contemplate betraying her family.
But most unsatisfactory of all is the, all’s well that ends well, conclusion. The animosity between the sisters was all apparently genuine, but it’s all immediately forgotten now that the resident bogeyman has been defeated.
Sansa: “So, you really were trying to terrify me with your sickening remarks about cutting my face off. You’re so strange and annoying. Lol”
Arya: “And you really were still under Littlefinger’s thumb, like a complete moron, but your last minute epiphany makes everything okay. Hey, do you fancy reciting a poignant callback to things Ned Stark used to say to prove that everything’s cool between us? Likethe one you and Jon had in last season’s finale?”
Sansa: “Okay. You start”
I’m sorry, but it’s just not up to the standards I came to expect from this show. Nor does it do justice to the characters or their development that we’ve been watching for years.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
The AotD is troubling them. Honestly what matters when a huge zombie army is on the march?
It’s respectable that you’re defending Jack Bauer 24, but in all honesty I have no idea why you are defending him at all considering how so many regular posters here believe he’s a troll. Even when people are nice to him and answer the hundreds of questions he asks after every show, he rarely ever replies and is rarely ever courteous in response.
Let him fight his own battles.
Rationalize it all you want. Tormund and Beric are not dead. At least, not yet.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
They know the viewers expect shocking twists/drama in this show, why wouldn’t they play it up so that it’s a surprise when Littlefinger is caught out? I don’t understand all the fuss over this plot tbh.
Grayven Reyne,
If the show wants them to be alive then they will be, logic be damned 🙂
Violator,
I like your observations very much and I hope you are correct. My greatest fear is that the so called “bittersweet ending” will be the death of Jon and Dany, leaving their child as the heir to the Iron Throne when it comes of age. In my opinion this would really depress and sadden.
ygritte,
It’s pretty simple.
Previous shocking twists/drama were more credibly constructed.
The Littlefinger twist wasn’t even shocking. Most of us were pretty confident that the Stark sisters would eventually come together to kill Littlefinger.
But the way they got there was unnecessarily convoluted and forced.
They could’ve reached a similar conclusion without sacrificing the characters’ intelligence and development at the altar of an entirely predictable twist.
Instead, they made Sansa an untrustworthy moron again. Made Arya act like a psycho/sociopath one minute, then perfectly normal and familial the next. Put the sisters at each other’s throats unnecessarily.
And all to work towards a simultaneously predictable and yet incredible plot “twist”.
There were no hand signals though. She gave the order by nodding to the Mountain. For some reason he unsheathed his sword but let Jaime walk away.
Jack Bauer 24,
There could be two orders. One to unsheathe the sword, and then a second order to use the sword.
Why would she send her away then instead of telling Brienne about LF?
Please Arya use Littlefinger’s face!!!!!
That’s my prediction for season 8.
I am most interested in what will happen with Jaime and Cercei, and between Jon and Dany.
I so want a Pod-Brienne spinoff show!!!!
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
I agree. It could be the wall falls in the books b/c of magical elements the show just hasn’t or doesn’t want to set up.
LatrineDiggerBrian,
Well if you don’t see it, it doesn’t mean it is not there:
-Tyrion struggles with wanting to disown his family and not being able to do it. Not really. Even Cersei, he still in a way wants to protect her.
-Jamie struggles with the pull Cersei has always had on him. He seems willing to break it off but what happens when he is truly forced to choose.
-And then you have the King of internal struggle and torment: Jon Snow. For years, he struggled with his bastard status until he seemingly came to peace with it. Though he keeps saying he’s not a Stark, we all know that is not how he feels. I mean he just told Theon he was a Stark, validating him as Sansa validated him. A Stark validating the Starkness of another person. And soon he will learn news that will take his life and smash it into pieces. Everything he thought he was was based on a lie. A lie that led him to get romantically involved with his aunt without his knowledge. The honorable Jon Snow. What is he going to do? Jon Snow’s internal and external struggles will be enough to go around. His truth will also have an impact on his immediate family, both Starks and Targaryens.
I’m glad Maisie said in her interview what I’ve been thinking all along. It wouldn’t have been true to their characters and their journeys if there hadn’t been some kind of conflict and dealing with the past between Arya and Sansa. I often think that that viewers who didn’t like what Arya was doing were the one’s who in some way were not taking her journey and time with the faceless men seriously or even her early decisions to build her life on revenge seriously.
Was the mechanics of the whole thing lacking? Yes. but not enough for me to bitch about it.
As for whether she could have just had LF arrested, Sansa certainly could have, but I think she WANTED to mess with him and that this is some of what she learned from her time with Ramsey coming out. Tease the person and snatch away their victory in the moment they’ve think they won it. She wanted Littlefinger’s emotional destruction as much as the actual justice. She wanted it to mirror what happened to their father. That was part of the punishment.
And, minor point, it’s clear that LF is bribing people in Winterfell and has set up a spy network there, there’s no telling who might have been able to warn him so he could get away if they didn’t keep it a big secret. I wish we had had one scene this season that showed him working on other stuff.
Haaa… You said a few posts back:
It’s respectable that you’re defending Jack Bauer 24, but in all honesty I have no idea why you are defending him at all considering how so many regular posters here believe he’s a troll. Even when people are nice to him and answer the hundreds of questions he asks after every show, he rarely ever replies and is rarely ever courteous in response.
Let him fight his own battles.
and here you are giving him a reasonable answer which I doubt he will reply to 😛
Not only is JB24 a troll, but as thick as two short planks if he can’t come up with a conclusion himself and which any half sensible person in this group would know the answer to.
This whole WF business he whinges on about has been discussed in depth; why did Arya hand her dagger to Sansa, etc. Did he watch the ‘Inside the Episode’ at the top of of this page? Even B&W describe this build up in tension between the Stark sisters in previous episodes and why they did this leading up to LF’s final demise.
I have to wonder with some of the questions he asks if JB24 actually understands/takes in what he’s watching… I think not!
I really don’t think Jon is gonna care about being the true heir to the throne. He doesn’t want power, but I think after some artificial conflict him and Dany will still be romantic.
I’m excited for Dany to come to winterfell and meet ghost and then even a one on one scene with Arya. Would be cool if Arya acts all protective of Jon and somewhat threatened Dany lol little sister playing big brother.
A sparing scene with Jon and Arya would be great as well. But Jon wins, I like the idea of Jon being the best; he certainly has the most experience.
Guys did they tell us on the show that Rhaegars other son was Named Aegon also
“but I think she WANTED to mess with him and that this is some of what she learned from her time with Ramsey coming out”
Except she said the complete opposite at the execution. “It’s not what I want, but it’s what honor demands.” So even after everything LF did she didn’t want this outcome.
All I’ll say about the Winterfell plotline in season 7 is that I’m glad it’s over.
It wasn’t bad, but it was confusing. Just look at all of the posts about it. There’s all kinds of different interpretations on which parts were deception and which parts were not. It felt like forced drama rather than earned drama to me, but everyone’s different and has their preferences. I, for one, will look forward to more relevant and cohesive plotlines for the last season.
Jack Bauer 24,
to convince Petyr tthat she is still his pawn
Dee Stark,
Yes, in 3×05 Kissed by fire, I think it’s Beric who mentions both Rhaenys and Aegon before he duels The Hound, but they are mentioned. Making Game of Thrones/HBO also released this infographic about Jon Snow’s different family connections last year, where Aegon is listed: http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/got-connections-ned-promise-tower-of-joy-infographic
I found it interesting that Tyrion lingered after Cersei’s mortal threat (even coaxed on by Tyrion!) which led to further disclosures while Jaime completely discarded her threat and walked out (finally!). In both cases, Cersei never “pulled the trigger”. There may be more to Tyrion’s “saving House Lannister” implication than disclosed.
I was also wondering if Ser Gregor actually held back…with or without Cersei’s guidance…because Jaime was his Kingsguard superior. During his encounter with the Hound I was wondering if he was a complete robotic zombie or if he had some sense of what the Hound was implying.
Yes. When the BwoB is listing off all of Sandor’s charges in the cave before Beric sentences him to trial by combat Thorus accuses him of having a hand in their murder. “I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the iron throne.” I’m not sure if Oberyn ever mentioned them by name. He may have, but most of the time he referred to them as his sister’s children.
I’m very interested to know what Tyrion said to convince Cersei to go back to the Dragonpit after she already left.
Tyrion found out that Cersei is pregnant, then the camera cuts and suddenly Cersei is back at the negotiating table? Strange.
You’d think Dany or Jon would’ve asked Tyrion what he said to get her to come back.
Sundae,
Clob,
Thanks so much
Do you think it is important to the show that they have the same name?
I am wondering, as I am explaining this stuff to my cousins and I am wondering if I should tell them that Aegon was also the name of Rhaegars other son, or leave that part out to avoid extra confusion.
Just 2 episodes ago Cersei said Bronn went behind Jaime’s back and set up the meeting with Tyrion and now she’s allowing Bronn to be an intermediary on their behalf by receiving team Jon/Dany and bringing them to the pit? Why?
I think that Rhaegar assumed the PTWP needed to be named Aegon for whatever reason, so he named any male air of his Aegon. I could be wrong though.
All I know is that the wait for season 8 is going to be aegonizing.
Lol! ++
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Agree 100%. Even if he feels duty-bound to place his butt on the Iron Throne, he’s pledged to Dany and won’t father a bastard. So, any conflict has to be resolved with them working together and married, unless one of them dies before the marriage. Hopefully with the danger of battle in mind, they get married before the final battle. I think Jon’s honor demands it.
I’m very worried that one or both of them will die in that battle. I think they’ll both be riding dragons and one or both dragons will be brought down like Viserion. A crash like that would kill the rider, either on impact or soon after. If it’s Dany, it will kill the unborn child, too, most likely.
To me, defeating the AoD and the NK while Dany and/or Jon dies is not a bittersweet ending. Beating a CGI enemy doesn’t compensate at all. Is it possible that D&D realize this and don’t allow Dany or Jon to die?
Jack Bauer 24,
I was also wondering why Jaime didn’t take Bronn with him, especially since he knows Bronn is on Cersei’s sh*t list.
So Cersei agreed to the truce the first time if Jon would have agreed to be neutral or was that a ploy as well?
Was Jaime ever the Mountain’s Kingsguard superior? If so, it was extremely brief. Jaime was away on his Dorne mission while Cersei was enduring everything that lead up to her walk of atonement. Ser Gregor was re-introduced (and joined the Kingsguard) at the end of her walk. Jaime returns early in S6 only for Tommen to boot him from the Kingsguard. My impression was that he hesitated because Cersei never gave a completely clear command to kill Jaime. Her head nod was ambiguous and Gregor paused because he knew that messing up such a huge order would be a bad thing (he may be a mute “zombie” but he obviously has enough mental cognition to function appropriately…he’s actually more subdued now than he was prior to his transformation when he was a reckless, ruthless marauder).
And, regarding the Mountain/Hound encounter, I believe the Mountain did have “some sense” of what the Hound was implying simply because the Hound was convinced he did and said so.
Probably because Jaime wanted to and knew he need to get out of KL as quickly as possible before, you know, Cersei realizes Jaime could charge off to team Dany and inform them of her impending treachery.
All a ploy on Cersie’s part. Her (and Euron’s) plan was fluid. Go with the flow of the conversation…appear resistant but eventually appear as if you’ve been convinced.
If Jon had agreed to be neutral, it would have still fit with her master strategy – have her combatants leave her alone while she reinforces. The end result of the Dragon Pit meeting couldn’t have gone any better for her (aside from Jaime leaving that is), or so it seems to her that is.
Not sure, but I doubt Jaime feels any loyalty to Bronn since Bronn made it clear previously that his loyalties only lie with getting paid and not with the Lannisters.
Or, more likely it just didn’t fit what D&D wanted to do in the script, whether it makes sense or not.
Mr Derp,
But in the show we know nothing of that.
Tormund and Eric are alive and near the top of the wall. They were at the level of the top of the wall cut outs at the beginning. They came out and ran along the wall away from the sea.. The tower cut outs were on their right sides. The blue light was not a reflection.. It was the flame color coming through the wall.. So the were already beyond the break at that point. I expect that next season the will go across the top of the wall toward castle black to avoid the army of the dead.
I am also wondering if the army of the dead bypasses Winterfell and just goes down the coast toward Kings Landing. Its not like they need a supply line
I would hope he has some rationality left in him.
Maybe we just don’t get to see what he does in his spare time anymore…? Maybe he still gets all of his ya-yas out on Septa Unella…or what’s left of her. Uggh.
Although Jaime may not have any sway with him or be able to do anything about it, I would strongly assume that he is/was Ser Gregor’s “queensguard” superior.
Not yet anyway
It’s also possible that Lyanna heard of Aegon being killed in King’s Landing and decided to rename her newest son the same name, but Im not sure about the timeline and all that.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
As I pointed out, Sansa already knew about LF killing Lysa, and wanting her, and coveting the crown etc etc etc. And yes, since the middle of the last season weve seen her be vocally and physically turned off to him, as you quoted. However, I think once she realized that he is actively now trying to turn her own sister against her, that was the final straw. She could still justify keeping him around because of the Vale army, but shit finally hit the fan enough for her to end it.
They could have done it differently, yes, but it wasnt awful. Perhaps theres a screen writing career in your future. You never know unless you try (not being condescending)
I think at the end, because of time, it was easier to show that the sisters are on good terms. No need to drag it out. It IS TV after all.
Bingo. That montage of him alone with the first snow falling… that was cinematic drama at its best. Bronn being there would have ruined the moment. Jaime is alone now, and they had to show that. Its television, and for the screen some things work better than others. People get paid a lot of money because they know these things.
I will agree with you there. The site of Jaime, riding alone, leaving all that he knows behind works much better when he’s doing it alone. Bronn’s kind of a comic relief character, and this scene needed no such thing.
Timeline wise, that definitely could have happened. Ned arrived at KL right as Tywin had KL sacked (he arrived too late to stop it). Afterward, he rode south to Dorne to rescue his sister. Now, could word have reached her at the secluded Tower of Joy? Not sure. Based on the Bran’s vision, it seemed like Ser Arthur Dayne was aware Rhaegar had died based on what Ned said to him. But could Lyanna have known that Elia and her kids were murdered? It’s possible…doubt we’ll ever know though.
Tamwell Sarly,
Mr Derp,
Makes sense
Okay but if she knew, why on earth would she name her son the same name her lover other son had.. lol
Bronn could always catch up to him later…
Dee Stark,
Apparently she really really really liked the name Aegon 🙂
I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure, Dee. The proposals have been:
1) Rhaegar insisted that all of his sons be named Aegon to try to fulfill his belief in prophecy.
2) Lyanna knew that Rhaegar’s first born Aegon was dead and re-used the name in his honor?
3) D&D and the writer didn’t believe it was important script wise and chose that name because it was a recognizable Targaryen name in the show.
That’s my assumption as well. Hopefully Bronn will get outta Dodge before shit hits the fan so he can go join the rest up North.
As shown in the screenshots provided, the blue light was reflecting on wooden supports within the ice structure. Wood is not translucent.
Tamwell Sarly,
yeah. Bronn will catch up with Jaime later.
“You didn’t think I’d just let you bugger off without giving me the castle and highborn wife you promised me?”
I’m so disappointed.
1. Jon’s bastard last name was Snow anyway. The surname a bastard received is usually connected to the location the child is RAISED, not born. Indeed bastards who are half-siblings might have different surnames. It is what happens to Robert Baratheon’s bastards (Mya Stone, Edric Storm, Gendry Waters…). Jon Sand was an unnecessary mistake.
2. About Aegon: how could they give him the same name of Rhaegar and Elia’s son? So weird.
3. The annulment. In the Faith of the Seven, a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside by the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Another way of ending a marriage is by having the bride join the Silent Sisters. How could Rhaegar obtain the annulment? Why disonoring Elia and the Martells this way? If Jon has to be R&L legitimate son, poligamy was a better option. Uncommon in recent times, but plausible.
Absolutely. There’s a special category for named characters, including Arya’s self-healing internal organs and Jaime’s floating armor.
In the bts video, Pilou says that was the first time Euron was ever truly frightened, when he saw the wight and that he wanted to get out of there. So maybe he really does leave for good and intends to leave Cersei hanging out to dry and she doessnt realize it?
The writers and/or director created a situation that killed them, but can certainly pretend it didn’t happen if they want to. I was just curious as to whether a careful rewatch would find 100% confirmation one way or the other, and was surprised when it did.
Tamwell Sarly,
interesting.. thank you
Mr Derp,
lol!!
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
Well, they might be dead AND making to season 8.
Imagine S8E1 opening with the wight horde invading the north with blue-eyed Thormund and Beric among them…
I don’t think that’s the way the show will go, but would certainly get everyone’s attention…
Grayven Reyne,
I really don’t see it as a 100% confirmation that they died. I would say it’s 50/50 at this point. Tormund almost bit the bullet last episode and that tease was quite dramatic. They (and this is a big assumption) wouldn’t tease his death in a grand way just to have him die off screen in the next episode, especially if he’s a favourite character of the fans. It would be a waste of two really good characters if they met their end this way. 2019 can’t get here faster.
4) G.R.R. Martin told D&D Jon’s name is Aegon…
Ultimately the problem with the Sansa/Arya plot was that on one level, it made perfect sense that there would be problems, considering they were never close. There were bound to still be tensions even after all they’s been through. Neither had walked in the others shoes these past few years. On the other hand the fandom was so happy to get the Stark babies back together they didn’t want to see Sansa & Ayra fighting, nor unemotional Bran, 3ER or not.
Another point is I think they wanted to create the conflict and try not to point too directly at the conclusion. Instead they made a bit of a mess. Maybe a little more hinting at working together, at whatever point that was could of helped. Instead you got a lot of “OMG – I hate Arya now, she’s crazy and why doesn’t Bran just tell them and why is he such an asshole.” reactions.
Sure there are quibbles here & there, and I agreed with some of the criticisms this season. I still say the biggest problems come from the fans own head canons.
I noticed the following sentence in Nicolaj Coster-Waldau’s Esqire interview: “You know there are all these swords of Valyrian steel, and you would think those five would all be somewhere in the mix.”
What does “those five” mean? Is it a slip of the tongue about there being a group of five Valyrian-steel-wielding champions in the final showdown with the Night King? I seem to remember that Jon and Dany noticed five figures fighting the army of the dead, in the Dragonstone cave paintings…
Slip of the tongue? No, pretty sure he’s referring to the number of known valyrian steel weapons in existing currently possessed by Jaime, Jon/Aegon, Brienne, Sam, and Arya.
As I recall, there would have been several weeks or even a month or more between Rhaegar’s death/the taking of KL and death of the two children, and the arrival of Ned at the Tower of Joy. Certainly plenty of time for raven messages. So I’d agree that if Lyanna named her baby ‘Aegon’ it would be after she knew of the death of the other child of that name.
Only reason I can think of for the same name to be used.
That’s certainly how I read it, as referring to valyrian weapons. Wasn’t sure about the number (in the books, there are several others known) but with the obvious four and Arya’s dagger that would be the five.
Absolutely agree with this. I for one, had no problems whatsoever with the Arya-Sansa plot – it makes completely sense to me, and it’s one of my favorite parts of the second part of this season. Also, after 6 seasons of not caring much for Sansa, I really, really like and admire her now. What a journey it has been for her, much more interesting for me than Arya’s.
After Arya handed the knife to Sansa, warning her against betraying the family but also telling Sansa that she had nothing to fear from Arya, I think the three siblings got together and realized LF was playing the sisters against each other and destroy House Stark. They had more than enough to take him down, and so that is where we came into this episode, with Sansa faking out LF and then the trial.
Just as with Lyanna’s wedding, I don’t think Bran knows what he knows until he does a search for that specific information. And so “chaos” triggered a small memory with him. And then the girls sitting down with him to discuss LF made him search and find the Ned betrayal, which he didn’t realize until he looked for it – just as he didn’t realize Lyanna had married Rhaegar until he looked for it.
If this true, then this power
1: Needed to be shown before it was a hidden plot device
2: Would totally destroy Season 8, as Sansa would certainly be smart enough to ask “What the heck is Cersei up to?”.
No, BranVision does have a scan_myenemy function. If it did, the whole story would fall apart as no one could ever deceive the Starks, except Bran himself and the Night King. In trying to solve the paradoxes of this season, you’ve made the next impossible.
So when does Bran need the weirwood tree? He was there when he saw the vision of Sansa/Ramsay, Arya/Crossroads, NK taking down the Wall, but he was able to see the Rhaegar flashback sitting by the fireplace with Sam?
So what was that scene in the finale with Sansa/LF where she was mad that Jon didn’t ask her opinion before pledging to Dany?
elizabethe,
I love this! Great explanation. I know many have expressed dismay regarding the storyline, but it was one of my favorites, not to mention we are all still speculating about it, and that is what makes this website fun! Having everyone give their own views about what happened behind the scenes makes for great water cooler discussion.
I found it believable. The sisters HATED each other in season 1. Just because they have been thru hell does not erase their childhood animosity, especially if Arya places blame on Sansa for being a part of what set this tragic story in motion. I thought Sansa really handled everything with maturity, and I think that Arya saw how Sansa handled her confrontations and began to see a different Sansa than she remembered. It was cool to watch. And their tense scenes were some of my favorites, especially in episode 6.
Littlefinger was absolutely cornered and humiliated. It was absolutely beautiful and cringeworthy to watch.
Ten Bears,
Me too! First thing out of my mouth when Jamie was riding away was “isn’t he taking Bronn with him?”
Plus Bronn said dragons was where their partnership ends.
However it was Cersei who gave Bronn his title.
I guess it depends on who Bronn thinks will end up on top.
Maybe in season 8 episode 1 we will see Jamie meeting Bronn a mile up the Kings Road because they left separately to avoid confrontation and they will head to Winterfell together. I would think that Bronn would rather hang with the brothers than the evil sister, unless Cersei offers Bronn to be the head of her army in Jamie’s place. It will be interesting to see where he ends up.
Agreed about the five Valyrian blades, but since they did explicitly mention FIVE human warriors in the Dragonstone cave drawings, that still points to Nicolaj possibly hinting (or slipping) to a planned final showdown of the five blades with the White Walkers and their king…
My comments have never been a prediction on whether Tormund and Beric will appear in season 8. They have only been a definite statement on what happened in the episode as it was filmed.
I’ve said this multiple times.. there is always a separation between “what was filmed” and “what was intended to be shown to the audience”. The 100% confirmed fact that Tormund and Beric did not survive the situation as it was filmed has almost NO bearing on whether they appear as themselves in Season 8. There is nothing stopping the writers from having Sean Bean walk into a scene as Ned Stark in the series finale if they want to, so of course they can have Tormund and Beric appear.
Lady Snow,
I think one determinant of Bronn’s location will be the fact that Jerome and Lena don’t ever appear on the same set together.
Kay,
100%
Steel_Wind,
Doubtful. The Wall falling is inevitable; the story as a whole makes little sense without that which “protects the realms of men” coming down. But knowing GRRM, he hasn’t yet figured out how it’s going to fall. D&D were forced to come up with it on their own, as they’ve been forced to come up with almost everything post-S4 on their own.
Ser Broccoli McBroccoliface,
This is by far the most plausible line of events for me. I totally concur with you, I believe the D&D team wanted us to see it the way Little Finger saw and experienced it…unexpected and shocking!
Tyrion Pimpslap,
In my opinion a magical horn kind of sucks and whilst I enjoy reading the books the show will have taken a much better route. That said, I feel certain there will be an ice dragon in the books too although it will likely play out in a different way.
Grayven Reyne,
I’m late catching up on this thread but as I posted in the episode recap James Hibberd has pretty much confirmed that Beric and Tormund survived but then stated they may not survive episode 1 on next season though.
Jon Snowed,
Dear God help me. For the 8th and very last time… there is a difference between “what was filmed” and “what the writers will pretend happened”!!!!
The likely fact that Tormund and Beric will appear in Season 8 as themselves HAS NO BEARING on whether died during the events of the last episode. None. Zero.