Thanks to our sources, we’ve received another new Game of Thrones casting notice, for a season six character referred to as “the best remaining part this season.”
This newest casting breakdown is for a haggard-looking lord in his fifties. He’s the lord of a noble house, described as intelligent, wry, incisive and articulate. He’s “a hard man and a realist.” Game of Thrones is searching for an actor who is “great with language and who has a lot of wattage.” They mention that he has a good and long scene in which it’s mostly the haggard-looking lord talking the entire time.
The character is scheduled to shoot the first two weeks of December in Northern Ireland. They did specify appearance as “white” for the character, so it’s safe to guess he is from Westeros, north of Dorne.
Who is this new lord on the scene? The field is pretty open. Smalljon Umber and Lord Karstark will have already been filming, so we can rule them out. Robett Glover is said to be “haggard” in A Dance with Dragons. The mention of the casting notice’s character having a long scene full of talking fires up the imagination, though. There are several significant lords that have not yet made an appearance, including Wyman Manderly and Howland Reed. This physical description doesn’t really suit them but then the show doesn’t always stick to book descriptions.
The northern storyline seems hopping in season 6; will this lord be a part of that story as well? Or someone new in King’s Landing or elsewhere?
Hoping for Manderly. Hodor!
He could really be anyone. So I’ve got no clue….
Doubt it’s Mandarly tough. Smalljon can easly get his speach, and tell it directly to Sansa….Then Rickon enters the room dramatically.
Getting Rodrik Harlaw vibe from the description.
EDIT: But they have already shot the Kingsmoot, right? So never mind …
The description doesn’t really sound like Manderly to me, though the described long dialogue scene will no doubt have many fans hoping (though I’m not really sure how that dialogue would ever fit into the show now, anyway).
Interesting that he’s filming in the first two weeks of December, since from recent comment that’s when Sophie will be doing any of her remaining filming. I guess a lot of the Northern stuff is left last?
Pepi,
Or a Kingsmoot pretender, or anyother lord.. really. The description is very vague. So it’s hard to guess.
”
Smalljon telling Sansa the speach will do, but instead of sending Davos to Skagos looking for Rickon, he will have him already.
Could be anyone. At most, we can say it’s probably a Northern Lord, due to the filming dates. I wouldn’t be surprised if most assume it’s Manderly, though 😉
Whoever he is, this is the year of the Lords that many hoped Season 5 would be, it seems. In the North alone, we get Smalljon, Lord Karstark, and probably this new Lord. Then there are the Greyjoys and a lot of background ironborn Lords, and the new Dothraki Khals, who are sort-of Lords in their lands.
I hope it is Howland Reed. He will explain Jon’s parentage.
What? A girl can dream.
Hoping for Manderly!
Sounds like it could be someone new or who has barely has been mentioned in the books.
Pepi – Harlaw is a good guess.
Luka Nieto,
Really doubt it’s Mandarly, could be any southren lord.
Hightower/Redwine,…etc. Could be some guy in KL/or from the Riverlands, or someone we didn’t saw in the books at all.
I think Yohn Royce actor is shooting in December.
Maybe another Lord from the Vale?
H.Stark,
Forgot the Vale!! The description, is just to vague, to accurately guess him, like we did with Tarly/Dayne..etc
I vote for Viggo Mortenson
Chilli,
I had a prediction..
Pepi,
I also thought of Harlaw. Oh well.
Mihnea,
I do not believe it’s Manderly. I’m just saying many will hope it is, as they always do.
However, I think we can be pretty sure it’s not a Southerner. The Northern Irish location and the winter filming date point to a Northen Lord, though. Or a Vale Lord, if they go North.
Oh, duh! Yeah, that would make sense……
Luka Nieto,
I simply doubt it could be Mandarly, as we already have Smalljon/Karstark who can easly take his role.
Wimsey,
Hmm. a ”realist” that is somewhat how I pictured Howland. But I can’t see what long speach would he have? If would talk with Jon, I expect it to be private, not adressed to a crowd.
Big Bucket Wull is coming.
[/spoiler]
Turncloak,
On that I’m even more doubtfull, Smalljon could easly take his speach.
I do think it is a reimagined Manderly…could this be the Ian McShane role? (He is young looking enough to play someone in late 50’s)
Anyone else having this problem? For some reason “show spoilers” button isn’t working for me – can’t see anything that has been covered.
Hell yes!!
Love it.
Pepi,
That’s the first one I thought!
The Reader doesn’t really do much
I’d be really glad if it’s him. He seems to be one of the most fascinating characters in AFFC, and would show that not all Ironborn are “misoginistic rapist brutes” as everyone thinks.
At first I thought that they’d merge him with Damphair, but it seems I was wrong (and happily so).
I am able to see the spoilers in my email notification, but once I come here they are gone. Pity, Turncloak’s spoiler was great. I did not read the books.
Robett Glover or The Reader?
Off topic, but here’s a nice bit of acting from Sam’s mom (as part of some twitter 15secondsofshakespeare thing):
https://twitter.com/Samanthaspiro/status/646650131316633600
Tywin of the Hill,
Ha, I also remembered him mostly because he stood out so much from his environment (despite it being quite a long time, since I’ve last read any of the books). On one hand the Ironborn (especially under Euron) are a bunch of crazy pirates, and on the other, there’s a completely down to earth Ironborn nicknamed “the Reader”. I don’t really remember his input on the Kingsmoot, but I do remember his scenes with Asha in his keep.
Mihnea,
One thing to consider is that long speeches on TV or film are not “long speeches” in normal life. A litany that takes up most of a 5 minute scene is long-winded on TV or film (and just begging to be panned by critics and audiences, too).
That stated, it is quite possible that they would have Reed provide a voice-over during flashbacks while he tells whomever (?Jon ?Perhaps Sansa?) the truth that, yes, in fact, Jon was the progeny of a scullery maid and a passing minstrel. Combining exposition and flashbacks can break up the monotony of one person talking very effectively. Moreover, it is an effective tool on screen because cinema has to show rather than tell: but showing and telling at the same time sometimes can be even stronger. (But never, never just “tell!” Well, almost never….. 😉 )
Mihnea,
I like it. I like it a lot!
Tywin of the Hill,
No .
Lord Blackwood comes to mind.
Intelligent
Noble house
In his fifties
Lupita N’yongo for the haggard looking lord!
Haha sorry couldn’t help myself
I seem to remember that he just tells Asha/Yara the same thing as her other two uncles, albeit differently. Of course, my memory is basically:
Asha: Savage Brute Uncle! Come to my Queensmoot and make me Queen of the Ironborn!
Savage Brute Uncle: GRUNT! Woman no fit to rule: only to rape and fetch beer! GRUNT! Go be Betty Draper!
Asha: Mad Mullah Uncle! Come to my Queensmoot and make me Queen of the Ironborn!
Mad Mullah Uncle: Underwater Jesus does not allow women to rule his elect! Get thee to a nunnery and be Betty Draper!
Asha: Professor Uncle! Come to my Queensmoot and make me Queen of the Ironborn!
Professor Uncle: *looks up from book* Well, I’ve researched the matter thoroughly, which is sort of surprising given that we appear to be a bunch of insane vikings who eat more books than we read, and I’ve discovered that in our long, sordid and, quite frankly, somewhat embarrassing history, we’ve never had a female executive. Indeed, usually it is recommended that women be something called a “Betty Draper,” although I still have not uncovered what that is beyond involving some magical spell called “valium.”
At the EntMoot:
Asha: All! Welcome to my Queensmoot! Make me Queen of the Ironborn!
viking crickets chirp
Lone voice: We don’t let women rule. Go be Betty Draper while we elect an Ozzy Osborne look-alike.
Asha: WTF? Seriously? Why didn’t anybody tell me that?
If the Reader does anything more than that, then I’ve forgotten it. And I certainly do not remember anything that would fit this description.
What about a mountain clansmen, one of the Wulls. I think it was Big Bucket Wull that is considered a “lord.” Aren’t they called lords by “The Ned”. I would love the i want to bathe in bolton blood before i die speech to make it onto the show. I have the small jon give the north remembers my lady speech to Sansa. Small Jon telling her why he didn’t bend the knee to Stannis because no my king is here and have Rickon and Shaggy walk through the doors. I’m getting more and more excited about next season, thanks Watchers for the casting news.
Wimsey,
God damnit Wimsey, you killed me…
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
Wimsey,
You win the Internet for today! Well played!
My first thought was Howland…
Wimsey,
The show has opened up several ways to reveal Jon’s parentage. Seems like Littlefinger knew something; Stannis too. Or Benjen could return and reveal it. Me, I’d love an HR=HS moment.
Wimsey,
Doesn’t he speak/challenge Euron at the rape-party on the Shield Islands?
Anyway, it’s more what he knows than what he does. He’s deep in knowledge of magic (and dragons maybe), I’ll eat my hat if he something he learned on books won’t be useful in the war against the Others, if only by bringing down Euron.
Paul,
No. Littlefinger’s reaction in 5×04 was to the idea that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, instead of being consensual. He could know that, as Oberyn apparently did (4×01), and not know anything at all about Jon. These are completely separate issues. The same goes for Stannis; he finds it unlikely that Ned fathered a bastard, because of how honorable Ned was; there’s no implication at all that he knows anything else. Many people in this world believe Rhaegar was a good man, not the sort to kidnap and rape women.
Paul,
Stannis simply said, he doubts Ned was the kind of men too sleep with whores, I doubt he even suspected the truth.
And while LF may doubt the ”official” story of the kidnapping, I doubt he even tought of the posibility of Jon being,..you know who.
I don’t think this is a northern lord. The northern lords are filming the Saintfield battle. This lord’s filming time is in December alone. We know that Rupert Vansittart (Yohn Royce) is also filming in December at some point, but I can’t think of any other Vale lords who would warrant getting all that dialogue.
I like the idea of the Reader being cast.
How many casting calls are for northern lords or “this character can be a northern lord”? There’s gonna be some kind of assembly?
Because maybe it will be difficult (for time reasons) if [insert character] goes from one lord to another looking for help/alliances…
lalla,
After Quentyn, I fully expect 70% of characters from AFFC/ADWD to be useless.
Pepi,
Me too. Problem is, they apparently have shot the kingsmoot already, so unless I’m missing something or there’re two kingsmoots (in which case it could make sense for Theon to be there in the second one), it’s not going to be.
But everything hints The Reader.
Záresh,
He’s presence at the KM is small, he doesn’t say much at all.
Inside shots are filmed in Belfast, and filming isn’t cronologicall. They can easly film in Dec. Something from the first episodes.
damn, I liked him. His story was the one I liked the most amongst the Dorne ones. Anyway
lalla,
The dragons realese could have been done by anyone else, no point in creating a non-character, just to move the plot.
And I fully expect the dragons realese to have little impact. ”Oh look the dragons are out! Just when a guy with a magical dragon horn is around! What a coincidence!”
”Oh don’t worry, they will calm down when the story demends it”
lalla,
Literally anyone could’ve released the dragons. If that had been his only function, his chapters would’ve been a totally useless waste of space in an already enormous book (instead of mostly a waste.)
Quentyn does serve some other purposes. To start with, we got to see the prelude to the War of Fire through his eyes. Basically, only his chapters detail what the anti-Dani faction is doing (the Volantenes starting to go to Meereen, the destruction of Yunkai, the sellsword companies, etc.) Tyrion could’ve served this purpose too, though. Most importantly, Quentyn delivered the crucial message to Daenerys that the Dornish are her most likely allies.
Quentyn’s chapters could’ve been cut at least by half, or even better he could’ve been a character but not a POV and it would’ve worked just fine. But still, even though I’m not a fan, to highlight “releasing the dragons” as the greatest consequence of Quentyn’s existence is rather depressing.
Seems we are due at least one big Dothraki role if now a few more.
Rodrik Harlaw or Howland Reed would be my guess.
The following is hilarious, Kerry Washington interview talking about a GoT experience with her parents and Jason Momoa.
Kerry and Kimmel
I say the casting is for HR, 50’s, haggard, wry and articulate.
Sounds like Rodrik Harlaw to me, too. He’d definitely give us a fresh perspective on the Ironborn.
Newbietothegame,
I almost think Ian McShane would be a perfect Howland Reed as he hasnt been confirmed for any other role yet, right?
serum,
confirmed to be with those bandits, in the riverlands.
Luka Nieto,
He’s also a decontruction of the unlikely hero and emblematic in the theme of failure which run throug ADWD. Let’s not speak of how much his demise will affect Doran.
IMHO the waste of space was Aero’s POVs, those were the dullest ones of the series, but I think that depends on one’s opinion of what makes a book worth reading. I like the plot movers, but I like to indulge in character arcs and psychological developement more 🙂
SlayerNina,
The other Northern lords were filming in summer and fall, so even if this guy is also a Northern lord, he’s not filming with them.
lalla,
I agree with Hotoh too. Another complaint I had with AFFC/ADWD, we get Hotah as a POV just to see Doran, but we don’t get Doran as POV, wich would have been more interesting because he ”knows too much”.
This things existed in the other books also, but this one is just obvious.
Not going to enter a debate on Quentyn, I made my point clear there, just like you did. Our opinion simply differ here.
What do you guys think about the script flowing online think its ligit?
Hellriser,
It’s fake. Missing key things that I know are happening in season 6. I don’t want anyone posting that here or any links to it. Every year some jerk creates fake summaries for attention.
Everyone doubts it’s Wyman, but I’m holding out hope for Brendan Gleeson at White Harbor.
A man can dream…
Thanks for fixing the show spoiler button – working now!
50-ish should be too old for Howland Reed. He would be about the same age as Ned, about 40. (Aged up from from 35 in the books.)
Haggard. Riverlands? Tytos Blackwood, maybe?
Could be Harlaw, as he’s haggard, could lecture the moot, whatever.
Initially I was thinking Reed, but the physical description isn’t there; “white” doesn’t cover all he needs to be.
Then it could be someone we haven’t met.
Sean C.,
Ah, ok, thank you
Yup. This seems the most likely scenario to me as well. The viewers will understand Jons heritage and what that means for his future. Jon will continue to do the right thing and continue to protect Westeros, believing he is only the bastard of Winterfell doing his duty. I don’t see him moving forward as someone aware of his “specialness” and fighting for his birthright and a crown.
My suspicion is it might be the Reader as part of Theon/Yara’s storyline perhaps?
Doubt it’s another northern lord
Maybe it’s another Westerlands or Riverlands Lord but “Haggard” to me generally hints at weather beaten face of a man (or woman) of the sea from Rocky Islands
Glover or Reed I think. The Reader would have to be on screen more often. if he is shooting in the north then maybe it is one of the two going to see Jon. Seeing as Glover went into the neck bearing the will of Robb which legitimized Jon and was guesting at Greywater it may very well be the reed told him about jon and glover went in search of him.
i tend towards glover since for me Haggard paints not only someone who has been exposed to weather but could also been someone who has suffered a lot. as has glover in battles and indirect by the ironborn who abducted his familiy
Sue the Fury,
Maybe so, though the level of details in it, makes it sound kinda legit.(if not legit then someone really spent quiet a bit of time making it up)
Hellriser,
Oh come on. It’s easy! And they got a lot of stuff wrong. For example, it’s not Robert in the flashback; it’s Ned, Benjen and Lyanna; and Hodor. Among other news they got wrong or missed but would’ve mentioned if they didn’t (Kinvara, for example.)
Wimsey,
My thoughts as well….
But damn! How I would like Ian McShane to have that long soliloquy to perform! XD
Mihnea,
Thank you!
serum,
No problem. Glad to help.
Just to be clear: it is NOT confirmed what character he plays, just that he is in the bandits storyline. My bets would be Maribald.
Rodrik Harlaw: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rodrik_Harlaw
A long-shot, but a possibility, he has a couple scenes in AFFC that could fit the description provided and offers D&D the chance to round out the Iron storyline with a lord questioning Euron.
Bracken or Blackwood, perhaps? They have single long scenes with Jaime.
That would be nice. Rodrik is one of my favorite minor characters.
Mihnea,
My thoughts also, except Meribald is not a lord.
A flayed man none,
I mean McShane as Maribald, not this lord.
This is a hard one to predict. My first guess would also be Rodrik Harlaw, but unless they’re not done filming the Kingsmoot (or if he’s not gonna be around for the Kingsmoot) I doubt it’s him.
I concur – this is surely Jaime at the Siege of Raventree stuff, the character description is maybe more Blackwood but it is perhaps Bracken who has the more interesting scene, so which of the two, who knows?
I’m thinking maybe Godric Borell. Northern Lord, important scene with Davos, haggard looking.
Wimsey,
The casting notices for the northern lords specifically stated that they were for “northern” lords (lord of a northern stronghold, lord of a noble northern house, etc.). There’s nothing similar for this guy. He’s NOT a northern lord.
Rodrik Harlaw seems like a good fit. It looks like Yohn Royce is going to be the Token Vale Lord (like Grey Worm is the Token Unsullied, Tormund is the Token Wildling, etc.), so I doubt there will be another Vale lord. It looks like Sam’s reach storyline won’t need multiple lords, since House Tarly will be its own little self-contained unit. He also needs to be the lord of the house. That leaves Rodrik, who is the Lord of House Harlaw.
The only thing that gives me pause is that it would mean that TV Rodrik is absent from the Kingsmoot in the show. That doesn’t seem to make much sense.
It could be a lord Jaime encounters in the Riverlands.
Godric Borrell? Seems consistent considering that speech he made about Eddard Stark to Davos in ADWD. But he seems too small a character to be in the show.
Seriously hoping for Howland Reed
Justin Buell,
Brendan Gleeson would be a brilliant choice for Manderly! He deserved a Best Actor Oscar nom for Calvary. And he’s stocky enough to look fat with a bit of padding.
why?
I keep thinking that Ian McShane is going to be Howland. Has anything further been posted about which character he’s going to play? Wonder why the lack of comment from the powers that be about the casting of such a high-profile actor. Has something like this happened in other off-seasons, where they say absolutely that they’ve cast an actor but don’t say for which part?
Would they necessarily lump the Chief of the Crannogmen with “northern”? Yes, they are in the north: but they seem to be a people apart still. At any rate, I would not expect a casting for Howland Reed to be like “northern Lord” (i.e. Gimli without forced perspective).
*sniff* I want to thank my agent, my first three wives who left me rather than distract me from doing stuff like this….
The Reader was my first thought for this description as well, but introducing him post-Kingsmoot does seem odd. I found his character a very refreshing exception to the portrayal of Ironborn as bloodthirsty thugs. And characters like Harlaw and Doran and Manderly who are not impetuous, but are willing to wait and think and prepare for the right moment, always intrigue me.
Thronetender,
It was confirmed he is with the bandits in the Riverlands.
If the Kingsmoot and the Northern battle have been filmed already I would say that that Tytos Blackwood is the most likely, I think the description fits. But the speech makes me unsure.
Is Howland Reed even necessary? The Season 6 spoilers are pretty clear that the audience will be shown through flashbacks rather than told Jon’s parentage. As for Jon, assuming he needs to find out his parentage for plot purposes, Melisandre could make some comment about king’s blood and Jon can fill in the blanks on his own.
Maisie is nearly done with S6
http://www.accesshollywood.com/maisie-williams-on-new-youtube-channel-and-game-of-thrones-s6_video_2974137
M,
I’m skeptical Reed is needed as well, but it seems like a lot of fans just need to see him on the series. It feels like Coldhands or Stoneheart to me… ie A role that is “fun” in the books, but can be easily cut without affecting the story.
Yes, we will be so shown. But how will the characters learn? These should happen at the same time.
Now, a lot of people have surmised that Bran would see it. There is one big problem with this: Bran would not be able to communicate it to other people. Moreover, this is the sort of thing where a show or film would show us Bran learning the big gag, but not showing what it is until Bran reveals it to other characters. As Bran almost certainly is not going to interact face-to-face with important characters again, that seems implausible.
If, on the other hand, Reed is recounting what happens verbally while the screen shows flashbacks to the audience, then the two are directly linked. Whichever characters are with Reed are hearing about it as are we, but with us also seeing it. We learn via flashback (the screen images plus a few key words will be what the audience follows) while we also see Jon, Sansa, whomever, hear it from Reed.
Mind you, this might not be what happens: but if it is, then we cannot look back at these announcements and claim that they were misleading!
How? Jon is firmly convinced that he is Ned’s son. Given that, an equally logical conclusion AND (to Jon) much more sound conclusion is that because Ned is the direct descendant of the Kings in the North, and because Robb was the “true” King in the North, then Ned’s bastard son and Robb’s bastard brother carries King’s blood.
This is a valid deduction: but it is unsound because it is based on a false premise (daddy=Ned). Jon needs to learn that the premise is false.
If so, then that role almost certainly has been cut. B&W have been fastidious about cutting extraneous characters, plot lines, etc. Indeed, I think that we should reach the opposite conclusion: whatever this character has to say, we need to see one or more main characters hear it. Otherwise, they would not be wasting precious screen time (and testing very finite audience patience time) with a long soliloquy!
Again, it might not be Reed. However, if there is to be some long exposition, then it would be very unsurprising if they decided to break up the monotony of exposition by doing it over flashbacks. That is one of the most palatable ways of doing long exposition on screen.
This is the key part of the description for me.
The fact the character does not appear at the Kingsmoot may not eliminate Rodrik Harlaw as a possibility. Maybe he chooses to state his support of Yara in a different way. After all, without Victarion, we know that there will be some changes to the Kingsmoot. Theon’s presence on the Iron Islands could also present an opportunity to introduce Rodrik and give him a purpose. I would like to see Rodrik in the show if only because it gives us a Greyjoy that isn’t a nutjob.
And either of these are a possibility as well. I am probably in the minority with this opinion but…I enjoyed Jaime’s interaction with Jonas Bracken and Tytos Blackwood, particularly when they remind him that their houses lost family members at the Red Wedding.
The “long” speech given by this character may be of more importance than the character himself. Since time is precious on this show, this character’s dialogue probably has some significance in another (major?) character’s story line.
I guess I am the only one who still hopes (or ever did) for Jon Connington….
M,
I think he is. Flashbacks and Mel’s vision won’t make him ‘legit’. My thought is in order for Jon to lead the Northerners against the Bolton army he needs to be. Except for the Wildlings, which northern Lord would follow a Bastard into battle.
So we might even get The Reader now!? D&D truly are spoiling us, aren’t they? Many people thought they skip most subplot from feast and dance, mainly due to budget, simplification and the detached nature of these plots. But they gave us the sparrows plot in full plus Dorne and now also the Iron Islands, the nothern lords plot and possibly riverlands too.
I mean The High Sparrow, Septa Unella, Lancel retuned, Kevan returned, Doran, Areo Hotah, Trystane, all 3 sandsnakes, Arnolf Karstark (or an ecquivalent), SmallJohn (probably with some of Mors Umber and Wyman Manderlys parts in him), Randyll Tarly, Dickon Tarly, Melessa Tarly and a daugter, Euron Greyjoy, Aeron Damphair, possibly The Reader and possibly Septon Meribald. I honestly didn’t expect to see half these characters. I am very impressed at how thorough this adaptation is
There’s nothing they can’t do today with a little help of special effects ; )
I’m going to go against the grain (and go out on a limb) and predict Manderly. Really he could meet a lot of the descriptions:
Intelligent
wry
incisive
articulate
a hard man
a realist
great with language
a lot of wattage
The haggard part maybe not so much. But I’m thinking maybe they put that to keep their options open and not necessarily need to cast a “fat” lord. Just one that can’t ride a horse perhaps?
As to him not filming scenes which other “northern lords” may have already filmed or may be filming, that might be explained by the fact that:
Never-mind. Couldn’t get the spoiler tags to work. Lets just say there might be a valid reason he is in some scenes but not others.
“I was not told of your coming.”
“And I seem to have prevented yours.”
Haven’t most –if not all– of the casting calls for Northern lords mentioned the requirement for a Northern or Midland British accent?
Wimsey,
Reed narrating Bran’s vision or recounting it in a speech is certainly possible I guess… Just seems unnecessary to me. Jon (or Sansa) hearing it from Reed as Bran sees it feels too LOTR to me personally I guess. Plus, I’ve never felt that the people (including Jon) necessarily need to see or learn Jon is a Targ… It is enough that he is one.
There is nothing to indicate that we are getting the “Northern Lords” plot, or that the Riverlands material will be Crows material rather than Winter material. At this point, I would bet that both of these are cut. And keep in mind that much of the “Northern Lords plot” is in the minds of some readers; the only real plot of which we know is that one Northern Lord is aware that Rickon is still alive, knows where Rickon is and wants Rickon restored. Sansa knows that Rickon is alive and wants him restored: she just needs a tree or two to point her in the right direction. If that does happen, then all of the Northern Plots that actually are presented in the book (as opposed to things like the “Robb’s Will” or “Jeyne’s Son” conjectures) will be on screen.
I would add to this that this really argues against the Lord being Manderly. Sansa learning about Rickon basically takes away Manderly’s one unique contribution to the plot.
As for the Riverlands, my bet is that whatever Jaime winds up doing there in Winter will be the primary focus. The time to show that he’s not Tywin II was last year, and they did that already. Winter will be a different story, and Jaime being Jaime not Tywin probably will not contribute to that story (whatever it is).
If Jon never learns, then how does it affect his character evolution? If other main characters do not learn, then how does it affect their character evolution? These stories are entirely about how a few individuals evolve in response to a variety of things that challenge their basic notions of who they are.
Moreover, the climax of the whole series will almost certainly depend heavily on how a half-dozen or so characters have evolved over 8 TV seasons. If Jon never learns this, then it does not affect his character evolution, and therefore there is no reason to even include it in the series. Thus, we need to see Jon learn this, and we need to see how it affects his take on who Jon Snow is.
I would add that this is hardly “Lord of the Rings.” Lots and lots of films and TV shows do this all of the time. Peter Jackson did not invent narrated flashbacks: they’ve been around since the 1950’s at least.
Wimsey,
Darquemode,
I agree with Wimsey. And btw Wimsey, you state your argument much more eloquently than me.
Or, I could say ‘Yeah, what he/she said’.
http://www.accesshollywood.com/george-rr-martin-will-emmy-wins-mean-less-game-of-thrones-death_video_2975037
Mm this get’s real interesting at 1:10 😉
Simeon,
I laughed out loud at that exchange in the books.
Agree. I believe that Jon must learn “who he is” and, upon doing that, decide his road. I’m not certain on how he should find out but I think it is essential to his character evolution.
Wimsey,
I think Jon evolves regardless of whether or not he knows he is a Targ or not a bastard etc… I’m not saying he won’t learn of his parentage/ destiny at all, but I do not think he needs to learn of it from Reed right now.
Everything he will do in Season 6 Jon would do whether or not he is aware of his ancestry…. Being reborn is out of his control so the knowledge has no affect. Also, Jon has many reasons to lead the Wildlings and Northerners to reclaim Winterfell without knowledge of his “Targ-ness needing to come into play.
Moving on to Season 7 and beyond? Maybe Jon does need to know and self-examination will be important, but I don’t think it is right now.
Narration has been around a long time indeed.. My point had nothing to do with LOTR inventing it or being the first to do it. I think stylistically it fits LOTR more than GOT. Assuming it happens that way, maybe Bran’s flashbacks will change that and after seeing it I will feel differently.
Sounds like her and Sophie have way less filming than last year? Maybe they are rushing certain actors through their scenes as fast as they can.
Reading the casting call description made me immediately think of Lord Wyman Manderly – apart from the physical description. Lord Too-Fat-To-Ride could never be described as “haggard”! 😀
In the books, Robett Glover was in White Harbour as well, and Davos describes him as haggard-looking… So could he take on some of Manderly’s role? And didn’t Robb Stark send his older brother, Lord Galbart Glover (and Maege Mormont) north via Greywater Watch with his will? Galbart and Maege are still MIA, but Robett is collaborating with Manderly in some sort of an anti-Bolton plot, even if there is no “Great Northern Conspiracy”.
But maybe the show already has enough northern lords with Smalljon and Karstark…
I wouldn’t mind seeing the Reader, either. I just don’t see his point from the show perspective… Unless D&D know something we don’t and he’s hugely important in TWoW and ADoS. 😀
EEK. My first post here. Don’t rip me to shreds. 😉
Thanks. McShane as a grizzled old bandit, perhaps giving someone (Jaime? Arya? Brienne?) a bit of sage advice on how not to approach a band of bandits … yeah, I can see that.
Newbietothegame,
My blushes! 😮
Bearded Onion,
It wouldn’t be so odd. This season we’ll have the Ironborn, the Tarlys, the Riverlands Outlaws, the Northern Battle, the Dothrakis… That screentime must come from somewhere.
Thronetender,
or Maribald. What character he plays is NOT, only that it will be in the riverlands.
I would love too see maribald speach done by him.
Off topic, but has anyone read the very long “leaked script” for the next season. I’m leaning more towards fake but there’s some stuff in there that would be excellent if it did come to pass but also some stuff that would be kinda lame! Won’t post a link as don’t want to encourage it but certainly got my mind racing!
I hope you don’t feel like people are ganging up on you, but I also agree with Wimsey. I think it is VERY important for Jon to know who he is. Being a “bastard” has been something so hard to overcome, he took the Black, he left his family that didn’t really treat him all that well….with few exceptions. To find out that he is really the son of Rhaegar??? Seriously? A Targ? That is HUGE news and would be hard to assimilate as you say, but it doesn’t have show him days and days of anguish and wonderment to “understand” the implications. And it still keeps him a Stark as well….something he really loved, Ned.
I do think that he will be compelled to “do the right thing” as it seems Jon Snow is wont to do. I still think that he will make defeating the WW/Others his priority regardless of how he morphs after he is back from the dead. If Daeny were to come and want to burn all of Westeros down, he would be the one to speak reason to her I think. (though I do NOT “ship” them at all). Bottom line is, it is extremely important for Jon to find out the truth. I believe it means everything.
Maybe that’s because they want to film Lena Headey last, so the rest is filmed earlier?
Sue posted earlier that this is a fake.
Why are people talking about characters for season 6 as if everything they do is on book? News flash: The show is ahead of the books.
So that means characters that don’t seem to have done a lot yet in the books likely still have significant roles in future books, and therefore in the show.
IMO the Reader’s role has barely begun in the books. He is going to have a role in Asha overthrowing Euron, and possibly Theon’s future storyline. That makes him a good guess.
Reading all the comments, as a non book-reader, I think it would be great if this was Asha and Theon’s enlightened maternal uncle, Rodrik Harlow, quite a rich lord. He could introduce a bit of nuance to the otherwise one-dimensional sort of Ironborn culture.
Agreed. He could be the “Doran” of the Ironborn.
Yeah sounds like The Reader to me.
JCDavis,
No worries at all! XD
I have my opinions and you have yours… I come here because I like to hear the different opinions – Not to have people agree with me!
But once again….
I do not think it important right now that Jon learn he is a Targaryen. I think this season is filled with actions and events that are motivated from and upbringing his life heretofore… His “Stark-ness” if you will. I do not think finding out he is not the man he thought he was is important to these events at all.
Moving forward I think it
could beprobably will be important. Being a bastard defines his self-identity, it will be a comic shift when he learns otherwise. That said, for right now, I don’t think it is important he learns he is a Targ, it is only important he is one since that fact most likely will play into his non-death (however he will be reborn or resurrected or manages to stay alive etc).Oh well, different strokes and all that…
~ Shrug
TheTouchOfFrost,
I read it and it is fake, but I agree… Some of it could be quite fun to see on screen!
Other parts…. Ugh! Bad fanfic!
TheTouchOfFrost,
Fake
Although, I must admit, I can see some similar things happening in regards to some characters. The madness in KL won’t happen that early in the show though I doubt.
Also I suspect the Lord will be the Reader, if only to add more depth to the Ironborn since people may think its only rapists and mad men in their culture.
Wimsey,
By Northern Lords plot I didn’t specifically Refer to the possible conspiracy that some people believe. By plot I ment Roose Bolton having to allign himself with norhtern lords, some of whom have questionable loyalities and what brings with it.
I greatly doubt that we will see anything of the Bracken/Blackwood kerfuffle in the TV show. It seems like a very minor sideplot that could be easily excised.
Laura,
Ooooooh, yeah. Brendan Gleeson. I just rewatched HP:GoF and I wholeheartedly agree with this choice for Manderly. A girl can dream.
H.Stark,
Hmm, interested to know what the “technical hitch” was. I guess they had to rejig the filming schedule?
Could be anyone, really.
Hoping for Wyman Manderly.
Oh yeah, thanks, I forgot about that – when McShane’s casting was first announced, a lot of people thought of Maribald and the speech. I had never heard of him or the speech, so I looked both up, and agreed then that to have him deliver even a portion of that speech would be a great moment – a moment of reflection and seriousness pondering life and warfare, in a mood on par with the Valyria scene of this season. Would be awesome to see him get himself into that.
TheTouchOfFrost,
Is it the same one that says the final scene is Euron blowing the horn of winter, and it is heard throughout Westeros? If so, that is the fakest shit I’ve read yet.
Reed (or anybody!) narrating Bran’s vision would be horrible! An insult to viewers’ intelligence!
I’m not attacking you, I think I’m agreeing with you. You just happened to vaguely and neutrally mention “narration” as a possibility, and I’ve got real bee in my bonnet about TV as a visual medium (as opposed to books = textual medium).
Bran’s previous visions, or Dany’s, or anybody’s, or Cersei’s flashback, haven’t been “narrated” by someone supposedly better in the know. The showrunners trust their viewers’ intelligence to figure it out for themselves. Not maybe all at first view but many fans rewatch and get most of it. Not everything has to be spelled out, this is not some tawdry day-time soap for the brain-dead.
Anyway, I’m more interested in the second idea you floated. Jon and other people in-universe need not know Jon’s true parentage, at least not yet. We viewers could get Bran visions (ToJ, Ned praying at WF Heart Tree etc.) building up… Most unsullied viewers would twig on to R+L=J but it still wouldn’t be confirmed. (BTW, I’m assuming Jon’s not dead-dead but will return in season 6 and in the books.)
Maybe R+L=J will never be confirmed, or will even be quashed by GRRM in the next books. 😀 It’s just a fan theory. Maybe it isn’t true. I have to keep reminding myself of that because I’m totally sold on it. I developed it independently, from reading the books, before coming to any forums and seeing that I wasn’t uniquely clever in “figuring it out”. 😀
I’m just musing if it’d be interesting that we the viewers know before Jon and almost everybody in-universe while Jon continues on his pathetic, problem-ridden, uncertain but ultimately heroic course.
The way I vision his future is an unsung hero. He’ll undergo unbelievable hardships, gain knowledge, play a crucial role in the battle against the Others, basically save humanity. His true parentage might become known to some but not all Westerosi during that fight, but he’ll die defending the realms of men.
I mean, what can you do after you’ve saved humanity? Get tangled in petty politics – tax policies, anyone? Naw, the ultimate hero spends all he’s got in the ultimate fight. Someone like Tyrion can take care of the governance of the realm afterwards.
EEK, my second post. I’m not sure if quoting will work, I’m not sure I know how to work the preview on this site – I tried with my first post (which is still in moderation last I looked) and made a hash of it. So apologies if this post appears badly formatted etc. A woman needs to learn before she can post fluently.
talvikorppi,
You are doing just fine.
Luka Nieto,
Wasn’t it only young Ned, Benjen and Hodor? Lyanna too?
Geralt of Rivia,
The WOTW report said the flashback would include Ned and his “younger siblings.” Those are Benjen and Lyanna.
Wimsey,
Jon absolutely needs to learn his true parentage and destiny that comes out of that. I can see him having a hard time accepting that, but eventually he’ll accept it. I’m sure he will be very curious about Lyanna and Rhaegar relationship, Targaryens and other stuff. Jon is basically only good that comes out of that messy time that was RR. A lot of peole died, but there was some hope and that’s in my mind Jon. I expect similiar thing to happen with Jon,Daeny but that’s for other debate.
Only other main characters that needs to learn that is Daeny and Bran. Tyrion?Not really. Sansa and Arya will still be his sisters in Jon’s eyes and in their eyes Jon is still their half-brother. I don’t expect Starkcest of any kind.
Luka Nieto,
Okay.
Yeah…most likely the show will keep the “northern conspiracy” and Greywater Watch concerns to a minimum (although I want HR at some point!), but with Smalljon and a Karstark in the mix, it does seem that the northeastern houses may have something to say about returning the Starks (Rickon) to power. Also, don’t forget that the Mormonts in the west are Stark loyalists as well. Could there be a squeeze on WF from the east and west? Then a possible rohirrim from the north? And the Vale forces from the south? Where do the Freys come in? Crazy! Hopefully, they get their raven-messaging and alliances straight! We’ll be debating this to death (Bastard Bowl, Stark reunions, etc.) in the coming months as info is dispersed. Fun!
The coming battle of for the north is interesting but when you also start considering the progress of the WWs, there is much headscratching…must the north work itself out before the WW’s breach the wall? Is it going to be ordered like that or will it be a bit more chaotic?
talvikorppi,
Ha!
No worries, you got it right.
I like the unsung hero thing too honestly.
I get the point about bastardy being such a large part of Jon’s identity and discovering he is, in fact, not a bastard would rock his world. It might be interesting to see how that plays out and I can see that playing into his decision about what to do after reclaiming Winterfell. That said, an unsung hero not getting his due does feel like something GRRM might do… At least to me.
I think I would actually die if they cast Viggo in GOT. Like seriously die. I don’t think my heart could take such a fantastic notion.
An hour of wolves and shattered shields,
when the age of men comes crashing down,
but it is not this day!
This day we fight!!
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth,
I bid you stand, Men of the West!!! (I mean North!!!)
I think that it reflects two things. One, some peoples’ hopes that the show will get to the Riverlands and Northern plotlines from Crows/Dragons winds up affecting their guesses about what will happen. Two, people rarely can “expand” their projections beyond what they know. The Harry Potter series (one of the few comparable series in this regard) offers a good comparison. Prior to the 5th book, nobody speculated that a character like Luna Lovegood would appear and have such a strong influence on the last 3 stories. Nobody speculated that a character like Horace Slughorn would appear and have such a strong influence on the overall plot. There was a lot of speculation that Harry was carrying Voldemort’s soul on his forehead, but nobody guessed that Voldemort had hidden multiple pieces of his soul in different places.
There still might be some important tertiary characters and plot items coming our way, but people are not really speculating about them because, well, how do you? It’s a shot in the dark!
That written, I agree with you: it is very possible that this represents someone who we have not seen in the books. (Of course, Reed actually fits this category: we’ve read about him, but he’s been holed up in the Crannog Marshes the entire time, so he’s both a “new” and an old character at once in some ways.)
Right I’ve just finished a long shift and can’t read all the responses so sorry if this has already been said! My first thought was the riverlands Lord Jamie saves from siege ( is it bracken or is he the Lord doing the siege can’t remember been a while since I read dance) he was well spoken intelligent and Jamie needs things to do in the back end of next season Plus mcshane is howland reed I’m certain lol It was Lord Vance I think I may be wrong
The way I see it is that Jon, Dany and Tyrion will all play some vital part in the ultimate battle. Jon will die (sacraficing himself for humanity, if you like. Almost Christ-like, but no ressurrection this time, he really will be dead-dead, and no cult growing out of it), Dany and Tyrion will survive.
Dany will get all the glory and sit on the Iron Throne (if there still is one), Tyrion will realise all his potential as an adept politician and administrator as the Queen’s Hand and then the King’s Hand (Dany’s son’s and then grandson’s Hand) . Tyrion will die as he wished (after a good meal, drunk, with a maidens mouth around his cock, at the age of eighty in his own bed – that’s what he told Shagga or some other Moon Mountain wildling in AGoT).
The truth about Jon “Snow” Targaryen will only slowly percolate through the Seven Kingdoms to the smallfolk, and the ballads and tales and songs are always going to be mostly about Dany. Those who knew Jon (Maester Sam, Lady Sansa, Lord Tyrion, Lord/King Rickon, maybe Dany etc.) will try to promote songs about him but to no avail. Dany has captured the popular imagination, Dany it is, Dany saved Westeros. While WE all know she couldn’t have done it without Jon.
Jon belongs in the old “heroic”, feudal age. Dany straddles the ages, and Tyrion is a “modern” politician. Perfect “three heads of the dragon”. Tyrion doesn’t even have to be a secret Targ (though I find J+A=T an attractive fan theory) if you take the “three heads of a dragon” in a metaphorical sense.
The realm needs a hero/saviour (Jon) to survive the onslaught of winter/white walkers/the Others, but the old way also dies with him; the realm needs a popular leader (purebred Targaryen Dany) to guide them towards a new, more egalitarian age; and the realm needs an intelligent, able person to see it through, to administer it all, give it good governance and make it work (Tyrion).
It might sound a bit boring. The Seven Kingdoms becoming a peaceful, prosperous, merchant nation. Gone the glorious knights and heroic antics of nobles. But it’ll be infinitely better for the artesans and merchants and even the smallfolk.
I don’t know what GRRM’s ideas are, but he doesn’t strike me as someone keen on restoring the old status quo, he seems far more interested in breaks, breaking something old and forging it anew. Maybe using most of the old ingredients but in a new way. Be it his characters or his world. Something similar happened in late medieval Europe before full-blown “renaissance” (hope I spelled that right…), maybe GRRM is letting his characters have personal renaissances while their world has one.
Ooops, sorry, I seem to accidentally have written a looong thing. Apologies.
talvikorppi,
When I watched HotU scene. I get the mpression that Daeny will die and join Drogo/Rhaego in the after life. Being so close to Irone Throne, but she will turn her attention to more pressing matter White Walkers invasion. With Jon, ressurected people are not for long in this world. I can see his final death more than being King. Ultimately,I think Dany and Jon will die in the final battle and their kid could be hope for the future, with Tyrion being his regent. Kinda mirroring Rhaegar with Lyanna. Tragic ending but there is still a hope = A Dream of Spring.
talvikorppi,
I like your scenario except for the Dany-gets-the-throne part. Too twee. I would much rather see her Mad Targ genes take over and her end up dying at the hands of a once-loyal follower, in an echo of what happened to her father.
My ideal ending is Tyrion being offered the throne by default, after practically everybody else with an arguable claim is dead (he has always reminded me a lot of Claudius in ‘I, Claudius’ anyway) and then deciding that there are other ways to run a country besides absolute monarchy. He could be the first Prime Minister of Westeros’ first Parliament. End Dark Ages, begin Renaissance.
Well, Jon might still very well be a bastard. However, I think that Jon learning that Ned had compromised his (Ned’s) honor in order to protect Jon from Ned’s best friend and (possibly) that Rhaegar had compromised his honor because of: 1) genuine belief in a prophecy; and, 2) (possibly) genuine love for Lyanna would make Jon have to really sit back and think. It is possible that GRRM (and B&W) are setting Jon up for some similar big “compromise” of honor when it comes down to the War for Everything.
That would be pretty arbitrary, wouldn’t it?
Wimsey,
True enough!
Wimsey,
Not arbitrary – ironic, and fully Martinesque. Another overused fantasy trope deflated; another rug pulled out from under readers’ expectations.
Firannion,
Martin isn’t likely to wreck a character just to subvert a trope. His subversions are never gratuitous, and they’re often tropes themselves: Ned’s death in GoT was not what people expected, but that death fulfilled expectations created by thousands of coming of age books that require the adult to die to get the kids to mature.
I pray that we get Manderly and this speech. I will get chills:
“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”
Chilli,
They need to film Bran as well. Isaac isn’t filming anything these days.
I’m glad you (and others) pointed out what it’d mean for Jon’s self-identity to learn that he isn’t Ned’s bastard but Rhaegar’s instead. His whole identity is built on being the bastard of the Stark in Winterfell, the Ned, the father he loved and idolised, all the time having “issues” about being a bastard – it’s one of his defining characteristics in the first couple of books.
Finding out that Ned wasn’t his father is going to be devastating at first. Being the bastard son of Prince Rhaegar won’t actually mean that much to Jon. He’ll still be a bastard, just not Ned’s, and he’ll probably hate the fact because he wants Ned to be his father. The Ned was, to all intents and purposes. He nurtured and raised Jon as his own son.
Rhaegar is nothing to Jon. Just a story. Lyanna is also just a story. Jon willl probably hate the stories and after some angsting just get on with the job, i.e. fighting the Others and saving humankind. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter who his f**king parents were. Nevertheless, he’ll die wishing Ned was his real dad.
Jon’s true parentage will be more important to others (Dany, Tyrion, Varys etc., the true politicians, and any remaining Starks – Jon’s cousins.)
Jon will be the unsung hero in ASoIaF. After an identity crisis, he’ll eschew his Targ side and choose to identify with the north and the Starks instead. Only those who’ll fight against the Others under Jon’s command will know the truth, but most of them will die. And none of this will matter in the end because he’ll die fighting the Others, and the future of Westeros is in other hands.
Maybe in a hundred of two hundred years’ time they’ll start singing songs about Jon, but by then, all the facts will be forgotten or distorted.
Firannion,
But it is arbitrary if it is not a direct outcome of the choices that she makes.
That’s gotta be Lord Hightower or Reed. Or that Maester.
Forget the book characters, this late in casting we are looking a Winds of Winter level suprise guests who reveal historical stuff to characters in the final episodes.
I’m really thinking this casting is for HR. I think this could be the show’s take on a man who has seen some shit, and has been holding onto dear secrets for a looooooong time.
And i do like the idea of him telling his story as a narration over Bran’s visions. That could be done in a really touching way- clearly connecting the dots for many characters, and the audience, all in one series of shots.
Just got to thinking- what if, what if… HR has a run in with Jamie and Brienne, and they are his audience? Maybe at the end of the season…
The description screams Rodrick Harlaw, but since we have no idea of Howland Reed’s personality, it could be him too.
talvikorppi,
In my mind Ned will always be Jon’s true father. He’s the one that saved him,learned him a lot and let him live in a healthy enviroment full of love (well except Cat). Jon is what Ramsay could have been and which is why I’m so looking forward to their eventual meeting. On the other hand Jon would have a lot of anger towards Ned, for not telling him anything, but eventually he’ll understand. Ned protected him by not telling anyone anything,but I guess he intended to tell Jon eventually afer some time in Night’s Watch or maybe I’m wrong.
As for Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship. It’s important to him to learn that it wasn’t a rape. People in North(including Jon) believes that Rhaegar kidnapped her and raped her. Sansa told the same and that’s their view on history. Show kinda touched on that subject with different set of views about Rhaegar, which I’m,sure will a part in the future. This is Jon’s story, but Lyanna is crucial in this. He will finally found a peace, but there isn’t anyone who would tell him more about her than he already knows. I don’t expect him to fully embrace his T side, but he’ll acknowledge that part. I think it’s necessary for him.
His true parentage is not so important from political point of view(maybe if he is to survive which I doubt). I expect him to gain support from the North+Widlings thanks tio his actions and not name. Daeny and others will be fighting or knowing their danger WW, and not playing GOT… when is parentage will be made public. Jon is doing just that, trying to to stop WW from invading. He’s not interested in playing games and don’t that he’ll try to start that.
Sybil_Ramkin,
This was my first thought too; there’s nothing in the quoted description of the casting call that specifies this is a Northern lord. JC would be in this 50s, ragged, and with good dialogue.
The way I read the HoU visions was that Drogo and Rhaego were offered to Dany as a temptation to stay there and not continue on her journey. After she resisted that (and other desires, like the house with the red door) she was given other visions, some of them in the past (e.g. Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon) and some in the future (e.g. KL Throne Hall broken and covered in snow).
And I just cannot see Jon and Dany ever producing a child. For one thing, they won’t have the time. I see them only meeting briefly on the eve of the final battle, in which Jon (and maybe Dany) dies. Anyway, Dany is too haughty to jump into bed with some crow, and Jon too honourable and shy to just have sex on the spot (Margaery would!), even if both saw the dynastic advantages, which they might not be aware of. And Jon’s Targ blood would make him Dany’s nephew, anyway. EW. Maybe no prob to Dany but it’d probably be a problem to Jon. So, no.
TBH, I have a problem with Dany ending up on the throne as well. But who else? All the Baratheons are dead, and restoring the previous dynasty is a far better option than setting up yet another, from all the Lords’ point of view. It offers the least likelihood of instability and infighting among the lords. After years of war and chaos, they all might be quite willing to accept a legitimate Targaryen, the only legitimate Targaryen, i.e. Dany… And then vye for position and push their sons as husbands to the new Queen…
I have real trouble imagining who Dany would marry to produce legitimate heirs. She can’t chose any scion of a major house because that’d piss off all the other major houses. Maybe her best bet is some minor lord, like the (by then) conveniently widowed Lord Stokeworth (formerly Ser Bronn of Blackwater) 😀 That way her Prince Consort and Hand (Tyrion) would already have a connection 😀
As to the politics, or forms of government. In European history, powerful nobles kept monarchs in check right up until early modern period. The antidote was absolute monarchy (quite a recent political concept), best exemplified by France’s Louis XIV. L’estat, ce moi, or however you spell it (I can speak some French but I’ve never learned to write it).
Westeros seems a strange and uneasy mixture of feudal kingship and absolute monarchy.
The next step is constitutional monarchy. A monarch constrained by a parliament made up of (elected) nobles, clergy, then elected burghers (the wealthier end of the middle class). Voting rights were long constrained by gender and wealth. Universal suffrage didn’t come to Europe – or the world – until Finland did it in 1906. (The earlier New Zealand “universal suffrage” still excluded “natives”.)
The ossified, feudal forms of government are perhaps begining to break up in Westeros. They might be on the brink of an early from of constitutional monarcy. Tyrion would understand all this, and work it to his advantage.
Thronetender,
Thronetender,
I agree, it’s interesting that none of the actors portraying said “tower of joy” scene? I have to wonder who will be playing Arthur, Howland, Ned etc…what about Lyana ? As it seems all we might get if this speculation is true will be….Arthur Dayne hanging around outside with his other guards, something along the lines of “Gee I wonder when Rheagar will be back…Lyanas about to give birth an all” puzzled ? lol
K Noelle,
I myself expect Karstark and Smalljon to take that speach, as well as the other one, said by the mountain clan guy, forgot his name.
Or a combination of those speaches. I personally, think Karstark will tell Mandarly’s speach, and Smalljon will get the other one. It just fits the characters i think.
And I havo no doubt there will be no Mandarly, we would have goten a casting call for someone like him much, much earlier. And neither would we have goten Karstark/Umber. I think Umber will take Mandarly’s role. Just like Mandarly he knows where Rickon is, if he doesn’t outright have him. Also the viewer is much more familliar with him. This things are the most important in a TV show. Why bring in a character that was never mentioned, when you have one that can easly take his role, and has a connection too a character previously shown.
Mandarly’s only role is to point Davos to Rickon. In the show Umber most likely has him already, so Mandarly has no other point in the story. The speaches can easly be given to another character.
Mandarly hasn’t even been mentioned, so I think it’s time to let him go. False expectation leads only to complaints and dissapointment.
Mihnea,
Lord Wyman Manderly has not been mentioned by name or at all that I recall, but we did see Wendel Manderly at The Twins for the Red Wedding.
http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/34600000/wendel-manderly-house-stark-34650879-927-517.jpg
At the time I thought that was proof positive Wyman would appear, but now I doubt it… Sigh.
Re: the lord not being addressed as a “northern lord”:
Manderly isn’t a northern lord per say, he’s a southerner who migrated north. So technically… (getting my hopes up for D&D to crush ’em :-()
Scott,
So glad I am not the only one! JonC gets much less “love” than I feel he deserves, considering that he’s a very interesting character.
Not much hope though, the show tramples on my hopes mercilessly I would have stuck the Emmys up their nose for what they did to Dorne. *PFUIII*
Darquemode,
An extra, no one said his name.
Seriously we need to let it go. We look for evidence where there is none.
This hyping and hoping will yield only dissapointment, and then complaints. That they cut an ”important” character, altough he was never even mentioned on the show.
I liked Mandarly too. He was among the few things that I liked in ADWD. But with Rickon being with the Umbers, he losses all relevancy to the story.
I fully expect his speach to make it tough. especially ”the mummers farce is done” part. And I think it’s either Smalljon or Karstark who says it.
This is a simple merging of 2 characters. We don’t get Mandarly because he doesn’t know anything about Rickon, wich is the entire reason he apears. Umber will take his place.
And I’m willing to bet money, that there will be no Mandarly. If we didn’t had Karstark/Umber, then yeah, he could still apear. But not now, when he basically has no part to play.
Characters are introduced because they have a part to play, not because the fans like them.
Tyrion Pimpslap,
Yep. That’s one of the more silly ideas but I liked the bits about the Hound travelling around with Meribald ( keeps the Quiet Isle stuff but makes it more mobile/adaptable) and Daario being the Harpy ( which I’ve always thought would be a good dramatic device). Some of the other bits are a bit silly but I think they’re heading in the right direction with a lot of the stuff despite the corniness.
Also, Brian Blessed for Manderly or no one!
And pies !
Grandmaester Flash,
Killing the Boltons will do. Doing those pie’s would require a stupid amount of exposition, actoully singing that song, or outright showing him doing it.
The pies do not do anything to move the story, or do anything at all really. Only 3 dudes we never seen before, or heard off are killed. We don’t know their role in the RW, we know only that they are called Frey, that to me isn’t enough to cheer when they die.
I want to see justice done, but to Bolton/Ramsey/Walder Frey. Not Frey son #4. And done by those who sufferd at their hands, Sansa/Arya/Jon/Rickon/Bran. Characters who I saw trough the other books, who I care for, not ”the fat northen lord”.
Anyway I was never a fan of those pies. I just found it silly. ”Oh, of course the fat guy made them in pies”
Hoping for Manderly, his speech would be one of the best moments of GoT if pulled off correctly.
tkk,
Thanks for that!
Speaking of Kit/Jon Snow…..Im not so convinced that he or Danny will die in the final battle. George has said over and over that his GOT inspiration is LOTR , where the two major protagonists Aragorn and Frodo live. However unlike LOTR, George has expressed interest in showing the hardships of war and the difficulty of leading a kingdom…he’s currently doing so with Jon (and Danny and even Tyrion, who was a great hand of the kind and got zero recognition). Thus the hero(s) dont need to die, they just need to suffer. Jon has lost his beloved father (figure) and brother, will never know his mother and has now been betrayed by his “brothers”. Danny has had numerous heartbreaking moments, personally and politically. The bittersweet ending George promised could mean a variety of things (for a variety of characters). I just dont think the bitter part will involve the death of either Dany or Jon.
wanderer,
Unfortunately, i think Dany will sacrifice herself in the battle for the others. This would allign with the bitter sweet ending we’ve been promised while also not letting GoT end with a cliche, which many would argue Dany has become.
They were arguably silly in Ovid and Shakespeare as well, but still a venerable literary motif by now. Many readers enjoyed the call-out to this tradition as well as the macabre humor of including it. Count me among the many who will be very sorry to see no Frey Pies or even worse, no Manderly. There are many levels on which to appreciate a story beyond the events that move the plot forward.
People with mental illness don’t choose to be mentally ill, but their tenuous hold on rationality can often lead to inappropriate behavior and poor choices that in turn have life-altering consequences. That may be unfair, but I don’t see it as any more arbitrary than any other turn of Fortune’s wheel.
But then, I am not as invested as you seem to be in the construct that this story must be neatly organized around the parallel dilemmas of the ‘Big Five’ and what they learn from them. I’m not a believer in ‘Everything happens for a reason’ – not even in literature. Randomness happens. It makes most people so uncomfortable that they make up religions and stuff to explain it away, but it’s the way much of reality works, and that’s okay with me.
talvikorppi,
Multiple meanings, maybe. 😉
Dany being the winner at thend is just way too simple.Everyone expects her to be THE Queen at the end and she never touched Irone Throne either.Meaning she will never sit on it.