Fighting the Night King will be hard; coming together to do so might be harder

Sansa-Stark-Daenerys-Targaryen-Season-8-802

“The northmen are loyal to Jon Snow. Not to her. They don’t know her. The Free Folk don’t know her. I’ve been up here awhile and I’m telling ya, they’re as stubborn as goats. If you want their loyalty, you have to earn it.” —Davos Seaworth in “Winterfell”

With these words, Ser Davos encapsulated the political situation that the Stark/Targaryen coalition faced as it tried to prepare the North for an invasion by an enemy that comes out of the distant past, out of the songs and stories of old.

Daenerys’s problem is that the northmen she has come to aid are not recognizing her claim; the problem the North has is having gone unexpectedly from being an independent kingdom to being relegated to vassal state status once again under an outsider queen with a large, hungry foreign army; former King in the North Jon Snow has the problem of competing private and public loyalties, as what he wants to do and what his people and family want him to do are not exactly aligned; and everyone has a big problem in that face-eating wights are streaming into the North, looking for faces to eat. (Reports of actual face eating might be exaggerated for artistic license.)

In the overall list of policy and personal problems, an army of wights should take priority. So why do these other problems even exist now that the Wall has a hole in it? Why are they given narrative and screen time?

Because wights are simple, with uncomplicated motivations. Humans are not like wights.

The North might be excused for not jumping in on the Queen Daenerys train with the fervor one might expect from a population threatened by supernatural horror. Even if we assume that the existential threat of the White Walkers has fully taken seed in the northmen’s consciousness already, they’re still collectively suffering with the stages of political grief, in the loss of the King in the North Robb Stark. They’re being buffeted with political whiplash in declaring their first King in the North after centuries without, losing him months later, getting saddled with a Bolton Lord Paramount, watching an army of outsider knights install Sansa Stark (whom they initially refused to help) as Lady of Winterfell, declaring a new King in the North to scratch their need for a homegrown hero king, and then having him months later set aside his crown and abdicate his authority to a Targaryen queen. The new kid in town.

In fact, their unwillingness to follow Daenerys is consistent with a previous example.

Stannis-Baratheon-Jon-Snow-Davos-Seaworth-Season-5

The last time an outsider monarch showed up to defend the North from a threat beyond the Wall, it was Stannis Baratheon, whom they also rejected.

Bear Island knows no King but the King in the North, whose name is Stark

Stannis routed Mance Rayder’s refugee army at the Wall, and offered to remove the Boltons for the low low price of recognizing him as king. But Stannis was not the King in the North. After centuries of being ruled by southerners, the start of the War of the Five Kings sparked the desire to have their own traditional king, and it took deep root.

The moment that Ned Stark was dead and Robert Baratheon’s acknowledged-heir Joffrey had his claim disputed by both of Robert’s brothers, the independent spirit of the North had practically manifested in the shape of the hulking Greatjon Umber:

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.

“MY LORDS!” he shouted, his voice booming off the rafters. “Here is what I say to these two kings!” He spat. “Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I’ve had a bellyful of them.” He reached back over his shoulder and drew his immense two-handed greatsword. “Why shouldn’t we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!”

And he knelt, and laid his sword at her son’s feet.
— A Game of Thrones, Catelyn XI

The North would object to the R’hllor-worshipping Stannis on religious grounds, too:

Greatjon Umber: Even their gods are wrong.

Daenerys’s storyline had featured echoes of Stannis’s ever since she first occupied his former holding of Dragonstone. Both couldn’t get the lords of Westeros to recognize their claims, both had inconsistent results in trying to oust the Lannisters out of King’s Landing, both had Melisandre of Asshai insinuating that they were the Prince(ss) That Was Promised, and both eventually were convinced by their respective Hands to set aside their southern campaign priorities and make their focus in the North.

Like Stannis, Dany is in the North wanting to be given her due as monarch of the Seven Kingdoms, and relies on Jon Snow to facilitate this. Stannis tried to get a political lever in the north by offering Jon legitimacy and making him Lord of Winterfell. Jon refused.

Dany tried to get a political lever in the North by accepting Jon Snow’s fealty. Which removed his King in the North status, and made him …

Lyanna Mormont: Nothing at all?

It might be a problem that Daenerys is so closely following the model of Stannis in her interactions with the North and its established northern power. Instead of being so much of a Stannis, perhaps she should adopt some of the compromise practicalities of his peachy little brother, Renly.

Renly

Renly doesn’t get much credit due to his attempt to seat himself on the Iron Throne. Much of the criticisms leveled against him are fair. He could have supported Ned Stark during the transition period of Robert’s death and avoided much bloodshed (including his own.) Renly could have served his brother Stannis as advisor, rather than opposing him as rival usurper. Stannis did not like Renly, but Stannis liked so few people that it probably didn’t matter. Renly decided to defy both his brother and precedence to attempt to usurp the throne. But he was prepared to make one interesting move as king.

When Catelyn Stark was acting as an ambassador for her son Robb’s wartime court, she attempted to treat with both Renly and Stannis, to forge a coalition against the true threat of the Lannisters. Stannis rejected this out of hand, considering Robb a thief and a usurper. Renly at least was willing to listen. He recognized that between the Stark forces in the Riverlands and his combined Reach and Stormlander forces, King’s Landing would quickly fall. In exchange for Stark support, he would allow Robb to remain King in the North on the condition that Renly was recognized as Robb’s superior.

Then Renly was abruptly murdered by a shadow assassin and those plans were ruined.

Thanks, Stannis.

Unfortunately, when Jon swore fealty to Daenerys, he didn’t plan ahead and keep his crown as the Wartime Winter King, or King Pro Tem, or some other designator to establish a reasonable limit that the northmen could get behind. Daenerys would have to agree to be flexible in this, which doesn’t sound too out of character. After all, Daenerys told Tyrion that she was willing to consider independence for the Iron Islands and she’d touted breaking the inflexible wheel of the political system currently in vogue in feudal Westeros. She might have allowed Jon to keep his crown conditionally. But that didn’t happen. He came back to the North crownless.

Even if Daenerys decided at this stage to declare Jon a kind of sub-king, in hopes of satisfying the northmen’s need for a King in the North, it wouldn’t be like Renly and Robb, two monarchs, coming to a power-sharing agreement. That boat has sailed.

Jon had already abdicated his power to Daenerys and if the northmen were grouchy about acknowledging her power, they’d just as be grouchy about Jon having his authority reinstated by her. The derived authority would be seen as hollow.

Lord Glover: Nice try. But I’m still staying in Deepwood Motte with my men.

Jon himself is disadvantaged by essentially being powerless, with Sansa Stark the legitimate face of authority in the North. And it might get worse when his identity as Aegon Targaryen becomes known. He’d be another damn Targaryen.

Varys Tyrion Lannister Davos Seaworth Season 8 801

Ser Davos has proposed Daenerys marrying Jon, to wed north and south together in a political marriage and smooth things over. Although Davos should be respected for his forward-thinking, this plan is not likely to come through. Not that it’s a bad plan, but the show’s history indicates that once any plan is stated out loud, it is doomed.

  • Varys convinces Ned to confess, take the Black and live? Joffrey beheads him.
  • Robb has his uncle Edmure marry a Frey to smooth things over? Red Wedding.
  • Tyrion plans to take Casterly Rock with the Unsullied thanks to his knowledge of its cisterns? Jaime leaves it abandoned to capture the wealth of Highgarden.

Based on the show’s history of things being undercut, a proposed political marriage won’t solve things so simply. The evident fly in the wedding soup would be Jon probably not wanting to marry his aunt.

Daenerys: I don’t see why not. I’m not his sister.
Jaime: Not that there’s anything wrong with that either.

So what can be done? Jon might not be able to do much, but there is someone who can.

Sansa Stark could start to rectify the situation by prioritizing the world’s needs over her relatively newly-embraced northern pride and working with Dany on public relations.

Sansa Stark Season 8 801

Since Sansa now eclipses Jon as the symbolic authority in the North, especially after performing as an effective civil administrator in getting her people ready for winter, Sansa could help her people accept Daenerys through example and also reassure Daenerys that she’s welcome in the land she’s trying to save.

Dany is somewhat of a fish out of water, and Sansa should empathize since she’d been raised throughout her childhood by Catelyn with an eye to the south. When Jon and Sansa were doing their recruitment tour of the North and trying to muster support, Sansa had setbacks dealing with the irate northern lords. It has only been recently that she’s kind of hit her stride as the Lady of Winterfell. Sansa also seized effective power with an army of outsiders, the knights of the Vale. So she might be able to bond with Daenerys over their similar experiences. Hopefully she still can.

And even though it might be difficult, it might not be too difficult.

Davos wouldn’t be warning Tyrion and Varys about the northern disposition if there were no problems he foresaw, and Daenerys is not wrong to be worried about Sansa not showing her the respect she expects. With Jon crownless, Sansa is the symbol of legitimate power in the North and symbols have power. Daenerys spent seasons in Meereen learning the difficulties of working with a population that didn’t accept her.

Grey Worm Missandei Unsullied Winterfell 801 Season 8

The northmen are not the Meereenese slavers, angry that Daenerys was disrupting their position and the economy. But Daenerys is a Targaryen and her father burned Rickard Stark alive. Some of the older men who watched Daenerys march into Winterfell with a dragon-bannered retinue might have fought against Rhaegar’s similarly-bannered forces at the Trident during Robert’s Rebellion. The fact that Randyll and Dickon Tarly chose death by dragonfire rather than bend the knee is going to reinforce any association Daenerys might be trying to avoid with her mad father Aerys. (Honestly, Randyll Tarly was so abrasive, he actually found a way to be an irritant in death.)

The folksy phrase the North Remembers seems a bit of a misquote since the northern lords were reluctant to rally to Sansa’s side against the Boltons. The North was not remembering its oaths to House Stark at that moment, but the North always seems to have a better memory when it comes to grudges. And the North remembers this grudge.

The northmen have now lost their second King in the North in a handful of years. They barely had time to get used to Jon Snow the White Wolf before he abdicated for a southern ruler, something the Greatjon had railed against. Robb’s death allowed the northern lords to either accept or deny Stannis as king (they denied), but Jon’s swearing of fealty to Daenerys forced the decision on them unbidden.

They’re as stubborn as goats. If you want their loyalty, you have to earn it.

Daenerys has yet to earn their loyalty. Still, the northmen do seem willing to play ball.

Ned Umber Season 8 801 2

Wee Lord Ned Umber requested wagons and horses to extract the Umbers from Last Hearth, he addressed Sansa and Jon as “m’lady” and “m’lord”, respectively, and Daenerys as “my queen.” So, on the surface, this doesn’t seem to be a problem, right? The northmen can call Daenerys queen, and she can go about her business marshaling her forces against the wights.

However, Dany being recognized as queen – sincerely being recognized – will only come after she earns it by facing the wights. The doomed Ned Umber called Daenerys queen and now he’s dead. Dany should honor his example and act as his queen, engaging with the Army of the Dead that killed him before making further demands on the North.

All the major actors currently in the North are going to have to make some changes if this is going to work out. The only faction that doesn’t have to change a thing is the Army of the Dead. They have their role covered.

Even though it makes sense that the humans in the North should set aside all these issues, at least until they can secure their long term survival, from a narrative perspective the story, the characters and their world demand that this conflict exists and that these conflicts be resolved.

The Night King and the wights are an overwhelmingly clear threat, and humanity is obviously going to resist them. Even if the North refuses to bend the knee to Daenerys, she’ll fight for them – for the living, because it is so evidently the correct thing to do. What kind of person would ignore the manifest threat of the White Walkers?

Cersei Lannister Season 8 King's Landing

But Game of Thrones has never been a straightforward good versus evil show.

Since the White Walkers represent such a monolithically motivated force, our heroes and villains and those in-between who represent the opposition to the supernatural threat will have to make up the difference in complexity and having cross-purposes. If the Night King represents cold and brutal order, then the defenders of the realm must be messy and chaotic and very, very human.

Or else it’s boring. And Game of Thrones is not boring.

186 responses

Jump to (and Always Support) the Bottom

    1. First of all I don’t agree with this comparison with stannis and Dany. Stannis was not supported by anyone whereas dany had the support of Tyrells ,Dorne, Greyjoys and others..She also had jon whatever reason that may be.
      I know it’s not much and didn’t go well for her but she had them which stannis never had. He can’t even remove the boltons from Wintrrfell.
      She is definitely one of the most charismatic leader in the story which stannis failed to achieve.

      Secondly, I don’t blame renly for what he did. The fandom generally forgets that Stannis was not present in KL for over a year and didn’t help ned or renly. Stannis always claims he never wanted the throne and Tyrells would not have supported Stannis. It would have been much better if stannis did Aemon thing and supported Renly who was more likeable and charismatic than him.

      The doomed Ned Umber called Daenerys queen and now he’s dead. Dany should honor his example and act as his queen, engaging with the Army of the Dead that killed him before making further demands on the North.

      Isn’t that exactly what she is doing and what she had already done.

      What kind of person would ignore the manifest threat of the White Walkers?

      I can think of some lords and ladies of certain region and A Queen.

        Quote  Reply

    2. Bran,

      “What kind of person would ignore the manifest threat of the White Walkers?”
      __________

      🎶”Brave Ser Robett ran away, away…”🎵

        Quote  Reply

    3. Interesting read.

      Btw, maybe Jon doesn’t want to marry his aunt now that he knows, but what if she’s pregnant? Would he prefer the child to be a bastard? I guess he might reconsider. Not that I am suggesting it would play out like this.

      Besides, didn’t Stannis originally consider to make Renly his heir? (considering Shireen was a girl and Westeros was a very old fashioned place) Not that I am saying he was so flexible, but it’s still a small gesture.

        Quote  Reply

    4. Thank you Patrick for the great article! I have to agree with Davos that Dany will definitely have to earn the respect of Northerners (not by any marriage alliances). And what better way than to fight against the AotD in the skies? I feel bad for Cersei not getting her elephants but if that went towards a great Drogon-on-WightViserion fight in the skies, I’m ok with that. As you mentioned, she could potentially prove herself if the Northerners still refuse to accept her as queen but still stay and fight.

      Either way, this tension is completely logical and several of us last season knew Jon’s abdication would cause problems in the North. But I expect any squabbles and tensions will be paused with the arrival of the AotD. Also the Iron Throne has been such a symbol of destruction and oppression, and Dany was away for those years during the War of Five Kings. She didn’t see what having the IT meant. I wonder if there will be any dialogue to learn what it has become (perhaps during a talk with Jaime?). Obviously, I myself am team #NoIronThrone rather than see any one person rule from it.

        Quote  Reply

    5. “Where are my dragons!” – Dany
      “Where are my elephants!” – Cersei
      “Where are my cojones!” – Lord Glover
      “Where are our direwolves!” – Jon, Arya
      “Where are my chickens!” – Sandor
      “Where are my punchlines!” – Tyrion

      “Where is my heart!” – Gendry
      “I robbed it.” – Arya

        Quote  Reply

    6. Sansa has learned a great deal since we met her. On the northern situation, she has made her displeasure known and now she will reconcile with Daenerys and build a “sisterhood” as they face the AOTD. She needed to voice her displeasure publicly in front of the lords to show them that she understands their concerns. She has the support of the north. I like the feature that she understood that Cersei would not send the army north.

      This is what Sansa should do: Work with Daenerys until the AOTD is defeated. This is what makes sense and Sansa knows it. If Sansa lives, she then assesses the lay of the land after that point. Daenerys could be dead by then or Jon dead. Dragons may be dead. Unsullied may be dead.

      Depending on the political landscape at the end – Sansa, if it is necessary, should ensure that Daenerys is killed and the dragons are posioned.

      The dragons may be the most difficult part – but she knows at least two persons that can get close to them – Tyrion and Jon. (She does not know about Tyrion yet!) Sansa saw how Oleanna used her in killing Joffy. She likely knows how Cersei took out the Sept. Her sister is a highly trained assassin.

      No, I do not think it will work out like this – just that these are options for Sansa. In the next episode, I expect her to be more friendly with Daenerys – that is what is required.

      She has game. I like it!

        Quote  Reply

    7. Bran:

      I can think of some lords and ladies of certain region and A Queen.

      If only I had included a picture of Cersei right where I had that line.

        Quote  Reply

    8. its like brexit, the mps are all of on holiday while there is a storm coming lol

      Bran – we have no time, interrupts the flow of the show, – then sits still for 2 days in the cold while jon goes for a dragon ride, and ayra flirts with the hound

      Looks like its building up to dany dying, with this whole who is the ruler thing and one last smile at a water fall, it’s all very ingrid scenes for what will happen,

      i’d like sansa turned into a white walker, but would we know the difference?
      they cant do the show with no major character not being turned my bets on dany

        Quote  Reply

    9. Bran,

      “Isn’t that exactly what she is doing and what she had already done.”?

      No, I don’t think so — not with respect to the north, anyway. She’s acting like the Queen of the North before having earned the respect of the people there. This behavior contrasts with her actions toward Jon, when she risked her life and the lives of her dragons to rescue him and his cohorts from beyond the wall. She did this without conditions and without apparent thought as to whether he’d bend the knee. Afterward, Jon did in fact do just that, but he did it because Dany had earned his loyalty. She needs to do the same with the rest of the North — fight for them first, ask for their loyalty later.

        Quote  Reply

    10. Dark Sister,

      “I have to agree with Davos that Dany will definitely have to earn the respect of Northerners…”
      _____
      In retrospect, it’s kind of a shame that there was only one Northerner in the Snow Patrol who could attest to Dany’s heroism at the Frozen Lake, and he (Jorah) is a disgraced fugitive who’s probably not Mr. Popularity among the Mormonts.
      Then again, if the grumpy Northerners (like Lyanna Mormont*, unrepentant? Sansa, Vale lord Royce, and others keep complaining about Jon’s abdication, continue whining about the Queen who’s cast aside her own ambitions and risked everything in order to come to their defense, or persist in arguing about food supplies; there’s always the Sandor Parliamentary Procedure Option, e.g.:

      Jon: “The Army of the Dead will soon be at our door. We must band together now or none of us will survive. There’s no time to squabble about supplies, rations or titles.”

      Lyanna Mormont: “You don’t seem to understand the situation. We didn’t choose Daenerys Targaryen as our queen, and we don’t have nearly enough beef and poultry to sustain her armies. What you have to understand is…”

      Sandor (stands up): “I understand that if any more words come pouring out your c*nt mouth, I’m going to have to eat every f*cking chicken on this continent.”

      (She starts slinking back into her chair.)

      Sandor: “But first get me some wine. Listening to all of your yammering has made me thirsty.”

      * Hi Clob!

        Quote  Reply

    11. Mango,

      Wow! You want Sansa to engage in the pretense of camaraderie for the time being, and then later assassinate her political rivals?

      Not saying I agree with you, but I like how you think outside the box. 🔲

        Quote  Reply

    12. The Good Waif,

      Particularly with the terrible PR from the Tarly BBQ [especially as it personally affected Jon’s BFF Sam, and his de facto Hand Davos is not a fan of burning people] and the already-existing anti-Targ prejudice in the North, Dany sure could’ve used some advance favorable publicity.

      As you cogently observed: “She’s acting like the Queen of the North before having earned the respect of the people there. This behavior contrasts with her actions toward Jon, when she risked her life and the lives of her dragons to rescue him and his cohorts from beyond the wall. She did this without conditions…”

      Both Dany and Jon should know by now that politics is largely a matter of perceptions, including refuting bad press and making sure people are impressed by a positive narrative.

      Dany (and Jon) – through credible spokespersons – ought to have circulated the Frozen Lake story well before her arrival in WF. As you It had all the attributes of a good PR story: an unconditional, no strings attached, unselfish rescue – at great personal risk – of the North’s leader and his compatriots. One hell of a campaign narrative. Had someone simply supplied an advance press release to the HPNN (Hot Pie News Network), Dany could’ve ridden through Winter Town and into WF with adoring throngs of cheering Northerners lining the streets. (And perhaps a little more politeness and a little less snark from the Lady of WF.)

      To hear about the Jon & Dany Wight Hunt and rescue for the first time in the form of a vague reference from Tyrion Lannister to the assembled Northern lords didn’t have the same impact.

      But again, Jon has always had difficulties appreciating the importance of having a good PR Department to sell his policies to the public in advance of making potentially divisive decisions. It was awfully naive of him to simply assure Dany [on the boat] that his people would “see you for what you are.”

        Quote  Reply

    13. The most important reason why the Northerners are being snippy and somewhat stubborn about Danaerys is because they cannot begin to imagine what’s coming down on them.

      The only people in Winterfell who have faced the Army of the Dead are Jon (twice), Sam, Gilly, Danaerys, the Hound and (sort of) Gendry (on the other side of the Army of the Dead, Thormund – twice – , Berric and Edd have also faced the AoTD).

      NOBODY who hasn’t seen the AoTD understand what it entails. IF they survive the battle of WF, Northerners will have a distinctly different impression of Danaerys and her bravery (because one thing I’m sure of is that Danaerys and her armies are going to fight and fight and fight against the AoTD).

      The real question is how much time there’ll be between the end of 8:01 and the beginning of the Battle of WF, and everything seems to indicate that it will be very little time.

        Quote  Reply

    14. Mango:
      Depending on the political landscape at the end – Sansa, if it is necessary, should ensure that Daenerys is killed and the dragons are posioned.

      She should murder those who came and rescued her and the entire north??

        Quote  Reply

    15. Alright, so this is getting really ridiculous. The flaws in the story are starting to really hurt the show. I thought Jon made it pretty clear to the dimwitted Northern Lords at the end of season 6 that they should be focused on one problem – the Night King. Then he explained it to them again in Season 7 before risking his life to go parlay with the Dragon Queen at Dragonstone. He risked his life yet again going north of the wall to capture a wight to lasso even more support from King’s Landing, and came back thinking he was successful in all of it. It seems like he should have taken the captured wight to Winterfell to show the North, since they still somehow don’t seem to understand the danger they’re in.

      The North’s dislike of Daenerys, Sansa’s in particular, I’m just not enjoying it. We’ve suffered Sansa’s winging enough, and I can’t believe it’s bleeding into the final season. I can understand Sam being mad, but his family made a choice in the battle and it was the wrong one – they chose Cersei.

      The showrunners already wasted one episode with pointless whining, and it looks like they’re going to do it again in episode 2. That’s 1/3 of the final season wasted crying about who the rightful ruler is when they’re all about to be steamrolled. So Jamie is the only one in King’s Landing that decided to join them, and what, they’re going to put him on trial? You’ve got to be kidding me!

      If the North is so steadfastly loyal to Jon, they sure don’t seem to listen to him when he tells them what’s coming. I really hope this is just a setup to prove how blindsided these people are by the AOTD, and after Episode 3 all of the bickering stops. It’s ruining what should be an incredible final season. I still have no clue what’s going to happen, but I don’t like where it’s going so far.

        Quote  Reply

    16. Its all a moot point. The dead are coming sunday, and thatll change the oppinion of anyone whos left among the living

        Quote  Reply

    17. Joey: I thought Jon made it pretty clear to the dimwitted Northern Lords at the end of season 6 that they should be focused on one problem – the Night King…

      …one episode with pointless whining, and it looks like they’re going to do it again in episode 2…

      …I really hope this is just a setup to prove how blindsided these people are by the AOTD…

      If they do in fact continue to bicker about political crap for the entirety of the second episode then if a bunch of them do ‘eat it’ in e3 it’s going to be a lot easier to accept by me. For certain individuals it may even be welcome. 😉

        Quote  Reply

    18. Che: She should murder those who came and rescued her and the entire north??

      Daenerys wants to rule Westeros – she cannot do that if there is no Westeros. She needs to either fight the NK or have a truce with NK.

      Her fight against the NK is not a favor to Sansa or the North – it is something she has to do for her own goals. Yes, she could select where she meets the AOTD, but fighting him in the north is where NK has his smallest army.

      Plus she fancies Jon and seems to be happy to make her assets available to him.

      Even if she was saving the North with no benefits to her ambition to rule Westeros – should Sansa and the north agree to serve her for their entire lives in thanks? What about a nice thank you card and a gift? Sansa may be grateful but lifetime service maybe asking too much.

      So, yes!

        Quote  Reply

    19. They have written both Jon and Dany to be dopes in terms of understanding politics. This is different from the books, but so be it, this is the way it is in the show. Tyrion no longer helps as they’ve certainly neutered most of his political skill. It’s in Davos’ character to be able to help but I doubt they will write that. That leaves Sansa. And it is clear they are building Sansa up to be this political person. I personally don’t see anything in the show that should make be believe that, but since they have told me this over and over it’s obviously the case and I am supposed to accept it.

      Therefore, unless there is some last minute plot twist where Dany suddenly turns insane for some reason, I suspect the Dany/Sansa tension is leading up to Sansa accepting Dany and helping Dany and Jon in the political department, not just with the North but Westeros in general.

        Quote  Reply

    20. Joey,

      Well, we see Jaime speaking to the council in the trailer. This is entirely expected – he has to give a shocking account of why he is here alone without his army. He has to say why his side of the truce has failed.

      Daenerys will have reason to be very angry – well, she has been suckered. He also has to handle it well enough that Daenerys does not fly south and kill his sister and the child. (Both Jaime and Tyrion love their sister and I think they always will. It is complicated for both!). He has to be careful that she does not burn him out of pique. He may have to finesse the mad king killing without hurting her feelings and getting burned out of pique.

      Trial? I suppose you could call it that.

      Many viewers expect him to be tried for his “crimes” or whatever they consider to be matters outstanding. Some massive ritual humiliation – this is some fans’ fantasy.

      I am prepared to wait and see what happens on Sunday. Of course, I also see pictures of Jaime sitting by the fire having a warm toddy with his brother. Seems the whole thing blew over and northerners (ie writers) are more sensible than some of the fans!

        Quote  Reply

    21. Mango: Many viewers expect him to be tried for his “crimes”

      I don’t think it will necessarily be an actual trial, but I do believe I did say once since Sunday that it could be something like a trial. That might be what a lot are thinking. I’m expecting it to be something of a questioning regarding his commitments and intentions while also including a lot of persecution and anger for actions he has made in the past. He’s never been put on a platform in front of his (former) enemies and had to explain himself and offer apologies for things he may need to do so. Nobody other than Brienne has heard what truly was happening when he slayed the king and how he’s carried that label ever since. He’s done many things that the North and Daenerys will not forget but perhaps he can earn forgiveness. A lot of the things he may be accused of because he’s Jaime Lannister he didn’t have a hand in. During that same time he has done a couple of things that should be redeemable in their eyes. For one, Sansa probably wouldn’t even be alive if he didn’t send Brienne to find her. Of course Brienne herself wouldn’t be alive either if not for him.

        Quote  Reply

    22. Danny lost Sam when she killed Dickon, now he’ll push for Jon.
      Sansa knows Jon is right about the northern threat, but she is also right about the southern one, and when it’s found out Cersei, lied the hell noise will be loud.
      Danny is running shitty PR, Sansa’s a bit rude, but blunt and she and the north have 300 years of history backing them up, Danerys will never sway them until they see her fight for them, THEN and only then should she ask them for them to support her claim.
      Sansa, is also thinking further ahead, she’s aware of TAOTD, but she also thinking what if they survive, what of her, and the north and her family’s safety and position, She’s the new QOT; Stark version, and protecting her house and family is just as important; she’ll do what needs to be done to help their survival and make sure they have influence.
      Sam and Sansa, come together to get Jon on the throne, I don’t think Sansa will have Danny assassinated. I think she prefer her and Jon married, and down south with the North gaining more freedom, not whole sale independence.

        Quote  Reply

    23. Clob: I don’t think it will necessarily be an actual trial, but I do believe I did say once since Sunday that it could be something like a trial.That might be what a lot are thinking.I’m expecting it to be something of a questioning regarding his commitments and intentions while also including a lot of persecution and anger for actions he has made in the past.He’s never been put on a platform in front of his (former) enemies and had to explain himself and offer apologies for things he may need to do so.Nobody other than Brienne has heard what truly was happening when he slayed the king and how he’s carried that label ever since.He’s done many things that the North and Daenerys will not forget but perhaps he can earn forgiveness.A lot of the things he may be accused of because he’s Jaime Lannister he didn’t have a hand in.During that same time he has done a couple of things that should be redeemable in their eyes.For one, Sansa probably wouldn’t even be alive if he didn’t send Brienne to find her.Of course Brienne herself wouldn’t be alive either if not for him.

      I am with you on something like a trail.

      Earn forgiveness?

      Tactically, if I were Jaime this is what I would do if it seems necessary to get out of this current mess that my sister has left me stuck in. But, really? Nope.

      Earning forgiveness from who? Daenerys for her mad ass father? Daenerys should pay Jaime damages for mental trauma suffered under her batshit relatives. She also attacked him when he going about his lawful business acting on behalf of the sitting Queen of Westeros. Wtf? Daenerys is not queen yet!

      Well, Bran has legitimate complaints. As far as the book got Bran still does not remember the incident. Jon, Sansa and Arya are not aware of his involvement as far as I know. So unless Jaime is going to be volunteering his sins – I am not sure why Bran will come up. Plus Jaime and Cat had a deal to settle his debts to the family. (Bran may be aware of both factors by now.)

      Sansa is the main beneficiary of that deal with Cat. Arya turned down her offer. Geez, Jaime may have been rolling in sack with Lady Brienne by now if she was not up north the entire time.

      But I suppose D&D will play it the way they want. He may end up to tied to stick again! Or strapped down on the chair as he has his hot toddy.

        Quote  Reply

    24. Well I guess Bran needed Jon to be established as true King for a reason. It’s not like they have time to debate this matter, yet Bran is determined it be known immediately.

      He also needed Jamie’s presence in the battle for the living for a reason.

      I’m guessing both positions are vital to success.

        Quote  Reply

    25. Ten Bears,

      I like the way you think, Ten Bears.

      It’s really ironic that Jon said that riding north with Dany would “send a better message” than having her fly in on the dragons. Clearly Jon has *some* sense of optics, just not nearly enough of one.

        Quote  Reply

    26. The Good Waif:
      Mango,

      Bran may not remember what Jaime did, but the Three-eyed Raven sure does.

      Yes. And the 3eyed Raven does not care.

      I think in the scene, Jaime will rally them to fight together. They are in sore need of unity and leadership. NK is near….they need to focus on what is important.

        Quote  Reply

    27. Excellent analysis.

      “Winterfell” represented a failure of leadership on the part of Daenerys Targaryen. When I say that, I’m not criticizing the show or the writers, as Dany’s behavior in the episode was in no way out of character for her. Rather, she descended into the aspects of her personality that have always been controversial.

      First, she seems disappointed at the cold reception she receives in the North. We later find out that Jon warned her this would happen. She need not have been warned. For anyone in her position, with her specific surname, to expect anything differently is simply stunning naïveté. Yes, she knows she is here to help, she’s already lost a dragon in this fight, but there is a long, nasty history at play here, and it’s one we know she knows all about.

      Second, she makes a public display of laughing at the fear her dragons instill in the small folk of Winterfell. Some people undoubtedly saw this. What are they going to think of her now? “The Queen thinks it’s funny when her murderbeasts buzz our homes.”

      She is initially cordial with Sansa and Bran, but when things get real at the council table, she is openly dismissive of Sansa’s very legitimate concerns about what dragons eat. Her answer; “Whatever they want,” could even be considered a veiled threat.

      Also at that Great Hall meeting, she encounters the displeasure of Lyanna Mormont and the Northmen at Jon’s submission to her. Instead of speaking up on her own behalf, showing the Northmen she comes to help and respects their wariness of her, she stays mum. She lets her Hand speak for her, and all he says is, in essence, “Hey, it’s all good, that Army of Lannister’s you guys have been at war with for years is on the way…to HELP!”

      The worst part of Dany’s performance this episode was her not-so-veiled threat that Sansa better show some respect, “…or else.” That was a genuine WTF moment for me. The Night King is bearing down on everyone and she’s getting bent out of shape that the Lady of Winterfell, whose grandfather her daddy burned alive, is throwing a bit of shade.

      Dany has displayed all of these traits before. They came off a lot more justified when her opposition was the perfumed slavers of Essos. That’s not who she is dealing with this time around. She needs to remove her head from its current location firmly up her own ass, and follow Davos’ advice of earning the loyalty of the North.

        Quote  Reply

    28. Joey,

      So you want no realistic human and political drama, and instead you just want the characters to mindlessly follow along and fight the equally mindless wights? My, how exciting. How Game of Thrones.

        Quote  Reply

    29. Dany wasn’t like Stannis when she roasted the Tarlys.

      She was like Joffrey.

      I have receipts.

      Besides being a monumentally stupid diplomatic move, Joffrey beheading Ned was a ridiculous tactical move. Ned had agreed to take the black. His honor would have never let him ditch it. (Maybe he stops in Winterfell for one last roll with Catelyn, but other than that, he goes to the wall.)

      A fighter and general of Ned’s skill is worth 1,000 criminals.

      Same with Randyll Tarly.

        Quote  Reply

    30. Mango,

      Yes, in his position in front of those people, forgiveness for him. In other scenarios placing a different person in front of other people they too may require forgiveness. Oh, such as Daenerys apologizing to Jon for her father’s actions (even though she didn’t do them and asked that he not blame her. The North still puts it on her).

      In Bran’s current state it can be assumed he can see everything Jaime has ever done, including knowing how he was paralyzed (his abilities are much further behind in the books). Many of Jaime’s actions were against the North, the Starks and their banner Houses, and Stark relation/allies (House Tully). He is the kingslayer and did sack House Tyrell and essentially assassinated Olenna, an ally of Daenerys. Some of those actions are well known and others are not, but Bran can see all… to include his ‘good deeds,’ and a couple can stand for him. Other characters aren’t being let off the hook for such things (by viewers as well) so they too would need to be forgiven in a similar situation.

        Quote  Reply

    31. Mango,

      Dany: You killed my Dad. You killed your King
      Jaime: Yes, I did. Your father just ordered his necromancers to burn the entire city to the ground. I saved lives and I’m fucking done apologizing for it.
      Bran: Ahem
      Jaime: I AM SO SORRY!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE DON’T KILL ME!!!!!!!!
      All: WTF?
      Bran: Yes, I know what you’ll do for love, Ser Jaime.
      Jaime: I would do anything, but I won’t do that…
      Sansa: Your father roasted my grandfather alive… your grace. Your father watched our uncle strangle himself trying to help his father. Your brother kidnapped and raped my aunt.
      Sam: Uh, actually….
      Gilly: NOT NOW! LATER!
      Brienne: If I may… Ser Jaime made an oath to Lady Catelyn
      Lady Stoneheart: Did someone call?
      D&D: FOR THE LAST TIME, NO! GEORGE TOLD US YOU DON’T MEAN ANYTHING! TAKE IT UP WITH HIM!
      Brienne: He swore to protect Sansa and Arya. He honored the North. He fights for the living. He gives me a tingly feeling in my girly parts
      Tormund: Go on…
      The Hound: So did I, when I kicked you there
      Tormund: GO ON….!

        Quote  Reply

    32. Olli:
      Well I guess Bran needed Jon to be established as true King for a reason.It’s not like they have time to debate this matter, yet Bran is determined it be known immediately.

      He also needed Jamie’s presence in the battle for the living for a reason.

      I’m guessing both positions are vital to success.

      I’ve been thinking this too ie Bran
      There’s no time for the Dany/Sansa conversations, according to Bran-the wall has fallen. There’s no time for Sam to stop crying after just learning the news about his brother and father-he has to tell Jon the news about his parents right now.
      He gave Arya the dagger that literally everyone is commenting on as well-so put that in your pocket for later.
      And then he waits all night to be the first person Jaime sees.

      Jon, Jaime, and Arya are, so far, Bran’s chosen pieces in this NK chess game.
      And he knows some things he’s waiting to throw down pertaining to Tyrion and Dany, if them ominously noticing his stares is any indication.

      As far Dany, while frustrating, it is natural for people to be hesitant based on Robert’s Rebellion and recent history. It’s even natural for them to be like, sure we’ll follow you to defeat this Night King guy, Jon, but we haven’t seen him and he hasn’t affected us yet so we’re going to make you remind us what we’re fighting every five seconds and still argue about petty things and doubt your judgment.
      Even Sansa doesn’t entirely get it yet, and her brother is the 3 eyed raven.

      What Dany doesn’t get, even after experiencing Mereen and how difficult it was to just come in and rule a people you barely know, whether you freed them from slavery or not–is that she needs to be patient and show people who she is, while finding out who they are and what they need. She relies too much on her dragons, and that doesn’t always fly. (I couldn’t help it lol)
      Get your army to help with hunting and gathering food stores for the battle you actually know is coming because you’ve seen it. Go out among the people and talk to them. Something.

      And yes, Jon fell in swoony love and believes her dragons will help save the day, but I agree he should have thought of another way to bend his knee. Form a war time alliance with a personal vow that he would kneel after or something. He should know that no matter how awesome you are, if you give people something to get pissy and narrow minded about aka the NW and the Wildlings, you are going to have trouble leading them into battle without getting stabbed in the heart by Ollie.

      Totally agree with Ten Bears. Jon and Dany both stink at PR, but I wonder why Tyrion and Varys didn’t think of that. Heck, even Stannis sent out “flyers” about the twincest and why he was the rightful king. It’s not a good sign if Stannis is better at promoting himself than you are.
      Ten Bears,

        Quote  Reply

    33. Nicely written, Patrick. I have enjoyed reading this…

      That said, I do believe all parties are to be blamed here. Dany has some serious PR issues. First, she is who she is – a Targaryen. Every Northern and Vale House have bled against Mad King. Last season, Lord Royce said that he remembered Mad King “all too well”. So, there is a lot of personal history there. More, Dany came with the army of Unsullied and Dothraki. Cersei managed to turn over Tarlys and many Reach lords against Tyrells just playing patriotism card. I doubt that Northerners have any more positive view on Dany’s army. Lastly, her Hand is Tyrion who is certainly not the most popular person in Westeros. So, she needs to sort things out.

      That is where Dany failed in the first episode. Missandei had marvelous speech in Season 7 about people following Dany because she protects them. Because they believe in her. Who can forget the speech to the Unsullied in Astapor in Season 4 or that Dothraki speech of entire khallasar being her blood riders in Season 6? Dany can inspire loyalty but, for some reason, she has not been doing it here. She allowed Tyrion and Jon to present her case, and they were not very successful in that. I really wanted to see Dany doing what she does best – making people understand who she really is.

      Then, of course, there is Sansa. It would be totally unbelievable for Dany and Sansa to braid each other’s hair. Moreover, I suspect there is some sort of fear that the agency and power she has got will be taken from her. Sansa was almost desperate to make Jon listen to her in Seasons 6 and 7. So, I assume she is playing the hard ball here just in case she needs to establish herself as the person they also need to listen to. Sansa overall is not unreasonable but she works in a difficult situation. She knows how Northern lords feel. Remember how last season she spoke of them “asking to fight in the worst winter they have known”. Sansa was afraid of what letter from the past may do and affect Northerners and Jon simply gave his crown without consulting anyone (just for comparison, EVEN Robb knew he can’t do that so easily). Sansa is doing what Jon and Dany asked her to do, after all she opened the gates, welcomed them, but she has much more to do. I believe that Dany will also inspire certain loyalty and trust in Sansa once the two of them have eye to eye conversation about Cersei and so on.

      Lastly Jon. He simply failed to see many small pictures because he was preoccupied with the biggest one. Yes, he is right to do so, but he can’t remain myopic. Once, he neglected to count the emotions of Night’s Watch when he allowed wildlings to pass the Wall and he ended up dead. Now, he did the same. Luckily, he left Sansa in charge who kept Northerners in line (or at least, as much as she could.) So, Jon, just like Dany, needs to voice his opinions more often so some people would understand it. The passive role he and Dany had in the “Winterfell” episode needs to end. The time has come for some big speeches and personal conversations that will make everyone certain in the decisions they make.

      I do enjoy that this has not be done in one episode and that at least not everyone is friend on the first sight. It is a rasonable continuation of the story and I wish we could see more talks. But there is only one episode left before we hit the fan 😀

        Quote  Reply

    34. In response to the debate above:

      Jaime doesn’t owe Daenerys a thing. Jon and Daeny traveled to King’s Landing and requested a parlay with Cersei to garner support for the war against the Night King. Jaime was part of an army that was pledged, fake or not, to go help them. He’s the only one who had the courage to defy Cersei and go anyway, and nobody is going to recognize that? He made a pact with Daenerys and Jon to be there, his arrival should in no way be a surprise to anyone. To put him on trial is a sick trap by the North.

        Quote  Reply

    35. Finally, an article that is not whining about the show is not what it was before because of the lack of source material(!!!) and instead, it solely covers the politics and assesses the current situation based on the lessons that we should have learned by now. one of the fewer articles that reading them is no waste of time.

        Quote  Reply

    36. Thank you, Patric, for an interesting read (as always), but IMO we have to clear some things.
      First of all, to me the whole Northern independence issue looks a bit fishy. It might be just the writing, but let’s take a closer look. Who is the most unhappy with Jon bending a knee to Dany? Lord Glover. And what is his record? 1) He was OK with the Boltons and used their help to retake Deepwood Motte form the Ironborn. 2) He committed no men to Jon’s and Sansa’s fight against the Boltons, athough basicly it was the fight for the Northern independence waged by Robb’s heirs against the collaborationist of the southern tyrants. 3) As soon as Jon and Sansa won, Lord Glover took effort to work his way into their good graces by an impressive speach, but he immediately freaked, when Jon insisted that he should put a spear into his granddaughter’s hands; this implies that he never planned to join the fight against the dead in a serious way. So, my conclusion is simple: Lord Glover is a coward and a turncloack and his only concern ir his personal survival (and maybe that of this granddaugther). Deepwood Motte is close to the seashore, so most probably he plans to board a boat and sale away while Winterfell holds the dead. Sure, Lord Glover is very good at presenting himself as a victim and putting the blame on the others, but the showrunners gave us plenty of clues about his true motivations. So, there is a question why Sansa who is supposed to be very smart by now is or is pretending to take Lord Glover’s words for granted? Her harshness towards Dany and Jon was indeed over the top; however, Cersei has always been using a very similar strategy: she has also been incredibly rude to Jaime, Tyrion and Robert always playing a victim and a martyr and therefore effectively making them feel guilty and this way ending on top of the things.
      On the other hand, the writing also has its problems and the whole Northern resentment feels forced. I can imagine Sansa or other Northern Lords playing their own games, but the common folk should be more focused on the survival and embracing any help they can get, unless someone is manipulating the public oppinion which I keep as my head canon at least for now. However, the showrunners could have added some dialogue to demontrate how the common folk perseive Dany.

        Quote  Reply

    37. Luka Nieto,

      Not at all. We’ve got enough mindless activity from Bran and Sansa, who have spent the last two seasons looking stoned with a thousand yard stare. It would be nice if everyone realized the danger they’re in and stopped worrying about hating someone who’s come to help them.

        Quote  Reply

    38. Clob,

      Easier to accept, yes, but it’s not that much fun to watch is it? I’m not sure I can sit through another hour of Sansa Stoned Eyes and Tourette’s Bran.

        Quote  Reply

    39. Raenarys:
      Plot twist: Arya uses the face of one of the WW to get close to NK and kill him.

      Eh. Though I’ve seen that fan theory, I feel the show has already fired the face peeling gun enough, if not too much, already: (1) Arya turns Meryn F*cking Trant’s face into Swiss Cheese and pokes out his eyeballs; (2) Arya wears face of serving girl to feed Walder Frey DamnMoronSons pie; and (3) Party planner Arya convenes an Arbor Gold Wine Tasting Party and wears Walder’s face to condemn and execute the House Frey Red Wedding conspirators.

      They should’ve held off on the S7 cold open (#3 above) if they were going to use Arya’s face peeling trick to pulverize NK.

      Besides, why is everybody out to kill my boy NK? He’s the victim in this story. The poor guy has already suffered enough. I’d just as soon see NK toss an ice javelin into Euron’s cackling face, and then put his own Ice Prince in Cersei’s belly.

      However, if Arya’s going to be involved in taking out NK, my personal fanfic scenarios include:

      (a) Leaping from the back of Rhaegal midair onto undead Viserion, and driving her VS dagger through NK’s eye and out the back of his skull;

      (b) Using the contraption she designed for Gendry to construct for her. i.e., a hidden sleeve, spring loaded dragonglass harpoon. (I posted a video last night of a similar device used by Robert DeNiro’s character in “Taxi Driver.”); or

      (c) As overconfident NK grabs the wrist of the diminutive girl to immobilize her hand holding a VS dagger, Arya pulls off the nifty dagger flip move she used on Brienne in S7e4; NK’s throat gets a Littlefinger-style slashing, and a closeup of his face reveals a bewildered “WTF????” expression right before he disintegrates into pixie dust.

      [Deleted followup scene]:
      Arya (looking down at remnants, mutters): “Dumb c*nt.”
      Sandor (beaming with pride): “That’s my cold little bitch.”

        Quote  Reply

    40. Clob: I don’t think it will necessarily be an actual trial, but I do believe I did say once since Sunday that it could be something like a trial.That might be what a lot are thinking.I’m expecting it to be something of a questioning regarding his commitments and intentions while also including a lot of persecution and anger for actions he has made in the past.He’s never been put on a platform in front of his (former) enemies and had to explain himself and offer apologies for things he may need to do so.Nobody other than Brienne has heard what truly was happening when he slayed the king and how he’s carried that label ever since.He’s done many things that the North and Daenerys will not forget but perhaps he can earn forgiveness.A lot of the things he may be accused of because he’s Jaime Lannister he didn’t have a hand in.During that same time he has done a couple of things that should be redeemable in their eyes.For one, Sansa probably wouldn’t even be alive if he didn’t send Brienne to find her.Of course Brienne herself wouldn’t be alive either if not for him.

      I see the point you are making. This can be seen in different ways. As they are on opposing sides of the minor wars and it is the stronger that decides who needs forgiveness – I see why they may think Jaime’s arrival is a good time to flex their political muscles.

      But the main war on their door step, they need to hurry.

        Quote  Reply

    41. Clob: If they do in fact continue to bicker about political crap for the entirety of the second episode then if a bunch of them do ‘eat it’ in e3 it’s going to be a lot easier to accept by me.For certain individuals it may even be welcome.😉

      That.
      😎

        Quote  Reply

    42. WorfWWorfington:
      Mango,

      Dany: You killed my Dad. You killed your King
      Jaime: Yes, I did. Your father just ordered his necromancers to burn the entire city to the ground. I saved lives and I’m fucking done apologizing for it.
      Bran: Ahem
      Jaime: I AM SO SORRY!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE DON’T KILL ME!!!!!!!!
      All: WTF?
      Bran: Yes, I know what you’ll do for love, Ser Jaime.
      Jaime: I would do anything, but I won’t do that…
      Sansa: Your father roasted my grandfather alive… your grace. Your father watched our uncle strangle himself trying to help his father. Your brother kidnapped and raped my aunt.
      Sam: Uh, actually….
      Gilly: NOT NOW! LATER!
      Brienne: If I may… Ser Jaime made an oath to Lady Catelyn
      Lady Stoneheart: Did someone call?
      D&D: FOR THE LAST TIME, NO! GEORGE TOLD US YOU DON’T MEAN ANYTHING! TAKE IT UP WITH HIM!
      Brienne: He swore to protect Sansa and Arya. He honored the North. He fights for the living. He gives me a tingly feeling in my girly parts
      Tormund: Go on…
      The Hound: So did I, when I kicked you there
      Tormund: GO ON….!

      Lol! I love that Meatloaf line.

        Quote  Reply

    43. Joey,

      Not really ruining it, maybe for you, but let’s be honest Game of Thrones has always delved into how politics work or do not work. Is is short sighted? Sure. Is it expected? Of course it is. If we were told that Aliens were coming from outer space to attack us and we must band together – what do you think would happen here on earth? Do you think all human beings would 1) believe the threat easily and 2) leave animosities behind and 3) band together without much conflict? I mean look at what happens in the real world – someone in power lies blatantly, there’s video tape of said lie yet there’s still a large part of the population that denies there was ever any lying involved, despite you know a video proving it. Human beings see what they want to see. Game of Thrones may be a fantasy show but still tries to ground its characters in the realities of the human condition.

        Quote  Reply

    44. A charitable reading of Dany’s attitude, giving her the benefit of the doubt:

      1) She received Jon, let him take stuff from her island, and allowed her most trust lieutenant, Jorah, to go with him on a ridiculous errand.
      2) She rescued him from said ridiculousness and sacrificed her dragon in the process
      3) She parlayed with Cersei when she would rather have just attacked.
      4) She lugged her entire warm-weather army up to the North
      5) She was fully expecting a bit of grumbling, but may have figured that the North was largely in agreement with Jon, that the differences could be set aside in the face of a major threat
      6) First meeting, she runs into pushback from Lyanna Mormont and then side-eye sniping from Sansa, who kinda shaded the dragons a bit, when the dragons are basically the only chance they’ve got now.

      Dany could have been like, “OK, I was gonna keep quiet and let Jon and Tyrion take the lead, but since I’m getting bitch shade here from Shorty and Ginger, not to mention Psycho Shorty outside, I’ll respond in kind. Girls, you wanna pee on each other’s legs? I got a lotta pee!”

      I think she was genuinely shaken by coming face to face with Sam and learning his connection. Plus, that was just bad planning by Jorah, who went to the same stupid shop that Tyrion goes to.

      Dany: So, that kid who saved you from greyscale is here?
      Jorah: Yes, your grace. His name is Sam and he’s studying to be a master
      Dany: Cool! I’ll need people in the Citadel when all this is over. What’s his story?
      Jorah: I don’t know. He didn’t give me his last name. There are literally thousands of people here who know that information, but why ask? Jon and I traveled like 400,000 miles together last season, but we never talked about it.
      Dany: OK, probably no one important. Certainly not anyone whose family I may have offended or injured somehow.
      Jorah: I mean, what are the odds?

        Quote  Reply

    45. Oh Patrick!
      I’ve really got to stop rewatching Arya & Gendry flirting, and refrain from reading Sansa & Poderick “Magic Man” Payne speculation.

      Initially, when I read the title of your article, “Fighting the Night King will be hard; coming together to do so might be harder.”, my skewed thought processes prompted me to ask myself, “so…simultaneous orgasms are the secret to defeating the Night King”?

        Quote  Reply

    46. I was just thinking about how good of a meal deep fried elephant would have been for the dragons. That led me to thinking how they can fly anywhere and get their own food and shouldn’t be completely dependent on being fed. Months ago I remember thinking it would be a neat scene if the dragons went and gathered a bunch of animals/fish and brought it to Winterfell for the people. I don’t know what viewers would think of that – if it would humanize them too much. According to people such as Tyrion, dragons are supposedly highly intelligent. They do seem to know what Daenerys wants them to do so I could accept such a thing. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    47. There’s so much here. First,

      Ten Bears:

      🎶”Brave Ser Robett ran away, away…”🎵

      That made my day. Thank you, Ten Bears.

      Second, so many wonderful comments. Thank you all for a great discussion. Regardless of where people come down in their loyalties (pro Dany, pro Sansa, etc.), we mostly seem to realize that this pettiness, while unsurprising, is unhelpful and will mostly be irrelevant by episode 3 when most of the North is annihilated. The survivors finally will understand what they were facing, why Jon had been so focused since his crowning, and have an increased respect for Dany. Perspective helps.

      So, Patrick, great article. Before we get to the decimation, however, Jon is still Warden of the North. I expected the grumbling, but I was insulted on Jon’s behalf when Lyanna asked if he were nothing at all. After all, as Warden, all of the houses are underneath him as the primary leader (general, shall we say?) of the North, not the Lady of Winterfell. Sansa now has the Stark bannerman only, not the whole north. As Warden, he is already kind of, like you suggested, a sort of war time king, only crownless. He still leads the north, just like Ned did. Hmm. As I write this, I get LotR vibes. “The crownless again shall be king.” Well, we’ll see how that plays out.

      I would like to point out that Davos has a better track record for plans than many on the show. Resurrecting Jon was his plan. Stannis securing funds from the Iron Bank was also thanks to Davos. I think the only way Jon and Dany don’t marry is if one of them dies before they can. Jon won’t want their (assumed future) child to be a bastard.

      As for the Jaime “trial”, I don’t think it will amount to much. Some tension while he explains himself. The preview certainly made it sound like Dany was going to roast him (I’d like to remind everyone that he did recently charge her with a spear), but she knows the truth about her father. I think after some snark and rabble, rabble, rabble from various people, he will be (somewhat) welcomed to the fight.

        Quote  Reply

    48. Joey,

      I LOVE Jaime and I believe they are going to recognize that he came voluntarily despite Cersei’s betrayal. But first they have to acknowledge all the elephants in the room (there are so many, Cersei will be jealous)
      Bran-he pushed him out of the window.
      Sansa and Arya-he was freed by their mother with the promise to find and protect them (which he did by giving Brienne Oathkeeper, I know, but still, it’s there)
      Dany-he did kill her incredibly evil father before he burned down KL, but broke an oath while doing it. “they make you swear and swear” And he also personally killed Dany’s ally Olenna Tyrell-but that was under Cersei’s orders.
      From the books, he kind of owes Jon aka Aegon too. In his dream, it’s inferred that he promised Rhaegar he’d protect his children. We know what happened to the ones at the Red Keep thanks to the Mountain. But Jon is Rhaegar’s son. It’s a vow he can finally keep.

      So all the living Stark children + Jon are wrapped up in Jaime’s story of debt and redemption. It’s something I’m hoping they’ll find a way to address. I’m also torn between whether Bran says that trailer line “Everything you did brought you here” to Jaime or Theon, because I think it’s true for both of them.

      Can’t wait to find out.

        Quote  Reply

    49. Ten Bears:
      I’ve really got to stop rewatching Arya & Gendry flirting, and refrain from reading Sansa & Poderick “Magic Man” Payne speculation.

      I’m having the same problem lol

        Quote  Reply

    50. WorfWWorfington,

      Well, Randyll refused to be sent to the wall because Daenerys was not his queen. That doesn’t mean he should have been burned, he could have been sent forcefully a la Slynt, but given his position and influence, I doubt the ship would really arrive in Eastwatch.

      Daenerys has a point that if she starts making prisoners, many will choose to become a prisoner. Still, it was politically not the best move to sentence him and his son to die, especially the style. But then, the Queen of Thorns advised her before to “be a dragon”, which was clearly particularly bad advice by an old woman out of hate for Cersei, with the realm as collatoral damage. She did advise Daenerys not to trust her advisors, by the way. If only Jon had been present at the Loot train attack…

      I’m personally interested to see what Jon and Sansa intend to do with lord Glover, if they all survive the long night, given that he obviously turned his back on his liege lords, assuming they don’t opt for a new political system where every vassal lord does as he or she pleases (I suppose that the reason they have a liege lord is to minimize conflict at the vassal lord level). I’d say the wall (instead of a scolding or the block) would be the better option, but it is no longer standing, so who knows. Maybe the NK makes a detour first.

      And those who suggest that Sansa should turn on Daenerys after the long night, she better assures first that they have enough men to withstand the Golden Company on their own.

        Quote  Reply

    51. Mango: Daenerys wants to rule Westeros – she cannot do that if there is no Westeros. She needs to either fight the NK or have a truce with NK.

      Her fight against the NK is not a favor to Sansa or the North – it is something she has to do for her own goals. Yes, she could select where she meets the AOTD, but fighting him in the north is where NK has his smallest army.

      Plus she fancies Jon and seems to be happy to make her assets available to him.

      Even if she was saving the North with no benefits to her ambition to rule Westeros – should Sansa and the north agree to serve her for their entire lives in thanks? What about a nice thank you card and a gift?Sansa may be grateful but lifetime service maybe asking too much.

      So, yes!

      But Sansa wouldn’t have a life if Dany didn’t come with her full force (assuming she survives, which I am not 100% she will). No one in the north would. It would be decimated. A lot of the north is going to be decimated anyway before the AOTD reach Winterfell. Assuming that our rag-tag team win, how is the North going to survive as an independent nation when half of it has been obliterated and they are just starting out in winter (assuming winter remains… shortened, lengthened, in any form) with food stores destroyed (after fire). The north, post AOTD, cannot stand as an independent nation. They would all certainly die of exposure and starvation.

      Another point to consider is that the North hasn’t been an independent nation since the era of Torrhen ‘kneeler’ Stark. They may have continued to hold a grudge for Aegon’s conquering of their lands and bringing them into the fold, I mean, the North Remembers right? But they haven’t actually been an independent Kingdom in centuries. Their last attempt at an uprising resulted in the immediate invasion by the Iron Born and the slaughter of thousands of their small folk and several noble households, before in the end it was crushed. After more years as apart of the seven kingdoms, they’re trying again, but this time an even bigger army is bearing down on them, one which will destroy a large part of their ‘kingdom’ and leave them helpless, even if they do survive. So it’s not like Danaerys is sweeping in to conquer a proudly independent Kingdom that has survived on its own for centuries… she’s actually coming to say “Hey, you guys are rebelling again. Stop it Didn’t you learn anything after your last failed attempt? I’m your queen, the last person with a somewhat credible claim *shut up Jon!*. Let’s all band together and rebuild our Kingdom, together, and make it better than it was before.”

      I do understand why Sansa is skeptical and angry (though I wish she would be a bit less whiny and snarky about it and actually raise her concerns in a non-infuriating way). I do understand why the northerners are loathe to have a Targaryen monarch after what happened to Rickard Stark and Brandon. But truthfully, I find the idea of them managing to survive post AOTD-obliteration-of-the-north just too far a stretch for my imagination. I’ve said it before in a debate we had on another thread and I still maintain: united in peace is better for everyone rather than war after war after war.

        Quote  Reply

    52. Dark Sister:

      Obviously, I myself am team #NoIronThrone rather than see any one person rule from it.

      I’m frankly amazed that the vast majority of Watchers believe there will be no Iron Throne. Are you (plural you, not meant to single out just the wise Sister) Team Anarchy? Team Smaller Kingdoms? Team Democracy? Has democracy ever worked in a rural medieval land with ignorant smallfolk who could not travel? How? Thank you.

        Quote  Reply

    53. Mango,

      “Yes. And the 3eyed Raven does not care.”

      He doesn’t have to care, anymore than he had to care about what Littlefinger said and did. He simply described Littlefinger’s behavior to those who *did* care. One can certainly imagine the same thing happening when Jaime comes before the powers that be at WF. Well, *I* can imagine it, anyway.

        Quote  Reply

    54. Che,

      We agree that Westeros should remain one nation.

      However, for me, that does not mean that they should return to Targ rule.

      Return to Targ rule would mean a complete failure of Westeros to become a nation. If they survive the NK, it would be the saddest possible end.

      I would prefer Hot Pie or Pod or Tormund to rule Westeros over being ruled again by any Targ including Daenerys. Invasion, defeat, and rule by terror are the saddest things that happened to the 7 kingdoms.

        Quote  Reply

    55. Ginevra,

      I personally haven’t decided firmly on what comes after only that the destruction of the throne should happen. Also, I’m not speculating this out of nowhere or trying to be unique in any way – I feel like this will be the shocking end to ASOIAF/GoT. What was the point of Dany’s vision in the House of the Undying regarding the ravaging of Westeros if not to highlight what greed for the throne has caused to the commonfolk? What was A Feast for Crows and Septon Meribald’s beautiful “Broken Man” speech, if not to show the destruction caused in pursuit of the Throne/power? And what better to way to subvert the fantasy genre than to actually destroy the symbol of monarchical rule? I’m not even sure I would call for a Democracy as there are many different types and there are real-world countries that call themselves “democratic” and are in fact, not (looking at you, DRC and DPRK).

      Also the advertising campaign leading up to S8 feels like one big ploy to get people to root for their ruler of choice with GoT emojis being released and the #ForTheThrone handle. It would make the end all the more shocking. While I’m undecided what kind of world I would like to see (return to separate kingdoms, a council ruling, etc.), I do know that I would like that Iron Throne to be destroyed. That’s my theory/wish anyways 🤷🏽‍♀️

        Quote  Reply

    56. The Good Waif:
      Mango,

      “Yes. And the 3eyed Raven does not care.”

      He doesn’t have to care, anymore than he had to care about what Littlefinger said and did. He simply described Littlefinger’s behavior to those who *did* care.One can certainly imagine the same thing happening when Jaime comes before the powers that be at WF.Well, *I* can imagine it, anyway.

      I did not follow enough of that WF sequence of events in the LF death to get a sense of what were the stakes and why Bran intervened.

        Quote  Reply

    57. Ten Bears,

      Initially, when I read the title of your article, “Fighting the Night King will be hard; coming together to do so might be harder.”, my skewed thought processes prompted me to ask myself, “so…simultaneous orgasms are the secret to defeating the Night King”

      😂😂😂😭”Everyone, pair up!”

        Quote  Reply

    58. Mango:
      Che,

      We agree that Westeros should remain one nation.

      However, for me, that does not mean that they should return to Targ rule.

      Return to Targ rule would mean a complete failure of Westeros to become a nation.If they survive the NK, it would be the saddest possible end.

      I would prefer Hot Pie or Pod or Tormund to rule Westeros over being ruled again by any Targ including Daenerys. Invasion, defeat, and rule by terror are the saddest things that happened to the 7 kingdoms.

      Ah, sorry I misunderstood. Now that I can get on board with. I actually don’t want Daenerys to rule Westeros in the end either as I’m not convinced she is a good ruler. She is an amazing, if not ruthless, saviour, but a just and fair ruler? I don’t think so. I’m also mostly with you on viewing the Targaryens as a negative for the 7 Kingdoms. However, and this is probably just my Jon-bias showing, I feel Jon may be the perfect compromise. He is a half Targ by blood, but a Westerosi (northman) by nature (and a Stark by blood too). He has repeatedly risked (and given) his life for the lives of Westeros’ people and though he needs good council from seasoned game-players and wiser people than himself, I feel he would be a just and honourable king. It’s obviously not going to happen as he seems duty-bound to sacrifice himself for the good of everybody, but a girl can dream.

        Quote  Reply

    59. Ginevra: I’m frankly amazed that the vast majority of Watchers believe there will be no Iron Throne. Are you (plural you, not meant to single out just the wise Sister) Team Anarchy? Team Smaller Kingdoms? Team Democracy? Has democracy ever worked in a rural medieval land with ignorant smallfolk who could not travel? How?Thank you.

      When I think about this I think about the insane number of people we’ve lost over the last few years in Westeros. Most armies have been depleted and a majority of the major houses have been destroyed.
      Heck the Mountain and his crew were just burning villages left and right in the first few seasons.
      Plus side? Tons of real estate available for Bronn. 😉
      Essos has come away remarkably unscathed so there’s still good trade potential-if there’s anything left for Westeros to trade when this is over. (There could also be an opportunity for large scale migration-weather and Night King permitting.)

      What this could mean is that enforcement of a united kingdom rule is made nearly impossible. Smaller kingdoms or clans would be more viable, similar to what they had in Westeros prior to Aegon’s initial arrival.

      I can see a sort of small council of leaders representing different areas and co-ruling in a more democratic way (Hello Davos), or multiple smaller kings and queens who sign treaties for trade etc.
      If they decide to stick to a centralized government, then there will still be massive changes and overhauls required just to function.
      Cersei is not a functioning ruler. She’s basically just clinging to that chair by the skin of her ragey teeth.

      It’s hard to imagine a realistic return to what was considered normal life in the first season.
      At least, not for a while.

      Of course I can also imagine a situation where they don’t win and most of Westeros is turned to ice so they get pushed back to Dorne where the climate is tolerable. Build a new wall and a new seat of power from there.
      That’s one of the worst case scenarios. Top of that list is just everyone dying.
      Neither option is exactly “bittersweet.”

        Quote  Reply

    60. Che: Ah, sorry I misunderstood. Now that I can get on board with. I actually don’t want Daenerys to rule Westeros in the end either as I’m not convinced she is a good ruler. She is an amazing, if not ruthless, saviour, but a just and fair ruler? I don’t think so. I’m also mostly with you on viewing the Targaryens as a negative for the 7 Kingdoms. However, and this is probably just my Jon-bias showing, I feel Jon may be the perfect compromise. He is a half Targ by blood, but a Westerosi (northman) by nature (and a Stark by blood too). He has repeatedly risked (and given) his life for the lives of Westeros’ people and though he needs good council from seasoned game-players and wiser people than himself, I feel he would be a just and honourable king. It’s obviously not going to happen as he seems duty-bound to sacrifice himself for the good of everybody, but a girl can dream.

      I agree with everything here except the “amazing” part. (Small potatoes, but I would say well-equipped saviour.)

      I would be very satisfied with Jon as ruler for the reasons you have mentioned. He is a solid, solid choice! I love/respect Jon. He is not perfect but he is a really good, brave person.

      My favorites are bit different largely because I like the writer’s work with one or two other characters more than the creative work for Jon’s character. I also am a bit bothered by the “undead” business regarding Jon. But besides these two factors, I am all good with Jon.

        Quote  Reply

    61. As someone put it so well – we should be rooting for the white walkers – they include everyone and unlive in so peacefully until they encounter hateful humans

        Quote  Reply

    62. Honestly I do believe Sansa would make the best ruler – she’s proven it – she knows how to command yet after all the pain she’s been through she knows how to put the people’s needs first – her 1 flaw would be standing by old traditions like sending little Ned Umber the lord of his house to get his people to winterfell- then again I do believe she simply doesn’t understand the threat of the white walkers yet – like she said so herself she’s a slow learner but she learns and episode 2 will be another lesson for her – once the white walkers have been dealt with however she would make an amazing queen with Arya as her queensguard and maybe Tyrion as her hand – Tyrion still confuses me after season 7 – I do believe he was putting his own childhood dreams before Danys invasion – that’s the only reason why he pushed for casterly rock instead of sending all their armies to KL in the first place – let’s not use a foreign army to take Westeros but let’s use them to take back my home – that was just selfish

        Quote  Reply

    63. Thanks, Patrick, that’s a great essay.

      The Jaime trial… It’s a great opportunity to to bring up key plot points.

      * Jaime finally gets to publicly say why he killed the Mad King…

      *Tells of the Wild Fire under KL, like that store under the Sept…maybe important to know for the future.

      * Rhaegar maybe mentioned – his kids were murdered, Dany may bring this up as one of Jaime’s failings as a KG.

      *Someone – Sansa? – may then mention Rhaegar’s ‘crime’ against Lyanna, which opens a door…

      * Brienne defends Jaime’s honour 😉

        Quote  Reply

    64. fdr:
      Interesting read.

      Btw, maybe Jon doesn’t want to marry his aunt now that he knows, but what if she’s pregnant? Would he prefer the child to be a bastard? I guess he might reconsider. Not that I am suggesting it would play out like this.

      Besides, didn’t Stannis originally consider to make Renly his heir? (considering Shireen was a girl and Westeros was a very old fashioned place) Not that I am saying he was so flexible, but it’s still a small gesture.

      Stannis did offer that to Renly, but it really wasn’t much of an offer versus what Renly thought was right in his grasp, a crown. (Renly should have taken that deal, of course.)

        Quote  Reply

    65. RG,

      This is the main reason I keep watching, since most of the rest of the show has gone off the rails. Theon, Jaime and the Hound – I still believe each of them is going to do something extraordinary. I’ve been waiting for years to find out what those things are. To me, that’s the most intriguing plot line left. I love Jon and I want him to kick ass and end up King, but I think Azor Ahai is one of the other three. All three of the trio I mentioned should be dead, but they’re still around for a reason and one great thing D&D have done with the show is hiding what that those reasons are. I’m praying this won’t be another huge letdown.

        Quote  Reply

    66. JRVJ:
      The most important reason why the Northerners are being snippy and somewhat stubborn about Danaerys is because they cannot begin to imagine what’s coming down on them.

      Strong agree.

        Quote  Reply

    67. WorfWWorfington:
      I think she was genuinely shaken by coming face to face with Sam and learning his connection. Plus, that was just bad planning by Jorah, who went to the same stupid shop that Tyrion goes to.

      Dany: So, that kid who saved you from greyscale is here?
      Jorah: Yes, your grace. His name is Sam and he’s studying to be a master
      Dany: Cool! I’ll need people in the Citadel when all this is over. What’s his story?
      Jorah: I don’t know. He didn’t give me his last name. There are literally thousands of people here who know that information, but why ask? Jon and I traveled like 400,000 miles together last season, but we never talked about it.
      Dany: OK, probably no one important. Certainly not anyone whose family I may have offended or injured somehow.
      Jorah: I mean, what are the odds?

      Don’t blame Jorah for that. He was dying of grayscale in Citadel quarantine when the loot train battle happened. He knows who Sam is, but that doesn’t mean he knows Daenerys killed his family. I doubt she gave him an exact play by play of everything he missed.

        Quote  Reply

    68. Joey:
      RG,

      Theon, Jaime and the Hound – I still believe each of them is going to do something extraordinary. I’ve been waiting for years to find out what those things are. To me, that’s the most intriguing plot line left. I love Jon and I want him to kick ass and end up King, but I think Azor Ahai is one of the other three. All three of the trio I mentioned should be dead, but they’re still around for a reason

      I love those characters and I agree, they have an important part to play.
      Isn’t it fascinating how several of the pivotal characters in the upcoming battle have already come so close to death?

      Jon-actually died
      Davos-nearly died on a rock in the ocean after Blackwater Bay
      Theon-what is dead may never die
      Sandor-the Lord of Light isn’t finished with him yet.
      Jorah-grayscale. Who survives after being that far gone?
      Arya-the amount of times she was stabbed by the waif alone…
      Beric-died 6 times
      Bran-died in that cave-at least, part of him
      Tyrion-2 trials and a face sliced up in battle
      I’ll also say that Sam has been in situations where he should have been dead like 5 times at this point. Clearly, he’s a god. lol

      Additionally: Theon, Jaime, Davos, Grey Worm and Varys have all lost bits of themselves along the way.

      And yes, we know what Sansa and Dany have gone through.

      It’s an interesting group gathering at Winterfell. I kind of wish they’d all survive.

        Quote  Reply

    69. RG,

      Question for book readers (based on your comment)…

      Am I correct in assuming that the only characters still alive who personally knew Rhaegar are Jaime and Jorah? If so, it might give Jon some solace to hear about his real dad from those who knew him – particularly if the fake kidnap-and-rape story recounted by Sansa in S5 was accepted as fact by the Stark family.*

      As for Lyanna Stark… I don’t think there’s anyone left alive who knew her. Excerpt for a few Bran-o-Vision snippets, she will probably remain an enigma.

      * I found it odd that the character who seemed to know the closest version of the truth was Oberyn: that Rhaegar had left his wife Elia for another woman.

        Quote  Reply

    70. Ten Bears:
      RG,

      Question for book readers (based on your comment)…

      Am I correct in assuming that the only characters still alive who personally knew Rhaegar are Jaime and Jorah? If so, it might give Jon some solace to hear about his real dad from those who knew him – particularly if the fake kidnap-and-rape story recounted by Sansa in S5 was accepted as fact by the Stark family.*

      As for Lyanna Stark… I don’t think there’s anyone left alive who knew her. Excerpt for a few Bran-o-Vision snippets, she will probably remain an enigma.

      * I found it odd that the character who seemed to know the closest version of the truth was Oberyn: that Rhaegar had left his wife Elia for another woman.

      Well first about Oberyn, it isn’t that odd. The Tower of Joy was in Dorne and the Daynes-ser Arthur and his fam were from there and very close to Rhaegar. They might have had more gossip about it there than in Westeros. Arthur Dayne with his Sword of the Morning is the one Ned fought to get to his sister.

      As far as who is there who knew Lyanna…there might be a few, including Jorah because he is a Mormont from Bear Island and some of the older Northerners who remember her.

      Rhaegar-yes Jaime was very young but in the Kingsguard-and left with King Aerys, and Rhaegar’s wife (ex) and children in the Red Keep when Rhaegar left with Dayne, Hightower and Whent-the other Kingsguard to head off on the still partially unexplained trip that ended with Jon at the tower.
      And Jorah knew him too, though I don’t think as well.

      We can’t forget Varys. He definitely knew him. Probably very well. I’m surprised he doesn’t know this. He was the Mad King’s master of whispers.

      I think that might be it, but I could be wrong.

        Quote  Reply

    71. Ten Bears:
      RG,

      Question for book readers (based on your comment)…

      Am I correct in assuming that the only characters still alive who personally knew Rhaegar are Jaime and Jorah?

      In the books, there are a lot of background characters that knew both Lyanna and Rhaegar who are still alive, but, yes, the show is pretty limited. We can assume Lord Glover and Lord Manderly knew her. Meera’s father, Howland Reed, knew Lyanna very well from the Tourney at Harrenhal, and, since he was with Ned at the Tower of Joy, he’s one of the only people alive who can confirm Jon’s true parentage. Unfortunately, I doubt they’ll bring him into the show, which is a shame. I think Jorah is the winner here.

      For Rhaegar, as RG said, Jon will have to settle for Jaime and Varys. I would love for any of these conversations to happen, but I don’t know if they’ll make time. Ooh, Book Cersei is still hung up on Rhaegar. That could make an incredibly awkward and entertaining conversation!

        Quote  Reply

    72. Chreechree,

      All I’ve ever wanted is to see Howland Reed meet Jon. *sniffles*
      Although-you can see the God’s Eye in the new intro so-I live in hope for a last minute flashback to Isle of Faces/tourney/KotLT

        Quote  Reply

    73. RG,

      I’m right there with you. He could help Jon so much with issues about why Ned did what he did, how he felt about it, and how much Lyanna loved and wanted Jon. Sniff! And I would LOVE a flashback to the tourney, but I really doubt that will happen. I strongly believe the God’s Eye will be important to the book endgame.

        Quote  Reply

    74. Chreechree,

      George said they had long meetings about the endgame-at least for main characters and larger story-and the white walkers would have to go by the God’s Eye before they hit King’s Landing so… Crossing things we at least get to see a hint of it! 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    75. WorfWWorfington,

      Sam did identify himself to Jorah in S7e2:

      (At Citadel; Sam wheels cart into Jorah’s room)

      Jorah: “What are you doing?”

      Sam: “You’re Jorah Mormont, the only son of Jeor Mormont. My name is Samwell Tarly, Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch, training to serve as maester at Castle Black. I knew your father. I was with him when he died. You are not dying today, Ser Jorah.”

      However, it’s unlikely Jorah shared any of that information with Dany in the few minutes between his arrival on Dragonstone Beach and his boneheaded decision to volunteer to go on the Wight Hunt. (At that juncture, more than any other time, Dany was sorely in need of a military advisor, i.e., not a political advisor like Tyrion who seemed to have gotten a lobotomy in the hiatus between S6 and S7.)

      Even so, I figured Jorah would’ve mentioned Samwell Tarly as the NW maester in training who’d saved his life when Jon name-dropped Lord Commander Jeor Mormont upon meeting Jorah.

      In any event, most of us assumed that Dany’s impetuous decision to barbecue Dickhead and Dickon Tarly would come back and bite her in the ass. And it has.

      And by the way… how is executing defenseless POWs part of the “breaking the wheel” campaign? It’s a war crime. Hardly a way to convince the people she wants to “liberate” that she’ll be a better ruler than her predecessors.

      S7 “Kneel or fry” = very bad campaign slogan.

      S2 (to Dothrakis after dragons’ hatching): “You may leave if you’d like, or stay as free brothers and sisters” = great stump speech that inspired loyalty and devotion. Same deal with the Unsullied.

      Ignoring the advice of the consigliere she’d hired after he’d impressed upon her that killing is different from politics = shortsighted, impulsive and counterproductive.

        Quote  Reply

    76. RG,

      Oh, I know, but there’s been no mention of the Green Men or the mysterious nature of the God’s Eye. I fear it would feel too out of nowhere for most show watchers to make it central to the magic of the Old God’s/ CotF. Those are seeds that should’ve been planted many seasons ago, or at the latest by the Three Eyed Raven (no, not you, Bran!) before he died. King’s Landing as the endgame location makes sense for the show. Still, we can dream.

        Quote  Reply

    77. RG: In his dream, it’s inferred that he promised Rhaegar he’d protect his children. We know what happened to the ones at the Red Keep thanks to the Mountain. But Jon is Rhaegar’s son. It’s a vow he can finally keep.

      Oh, wow. This had never occurred to me!!!

      Beautiful.

        Quote  Reply

    78. fdr:
      WorfWWorfington,

      ***

      Daenerys has a point that if she starts making prisoners, many will choose to become a prisoner.
      ****

      I’m personally interested to see what Jon and Sansa intend to do with lord Glover, if they all survive the long night, given that he obviously turned his back on his liege lords…
      ****

      1. What’s so bad about surrendering and being held as a prisoner of war until hostilities cease? Absent some real emergency, there’s no excuse for killing POWs. (Recall that Jon couldn’t bring himself to execute Ygritte even though Qhorin had a somewhat justifiable reason.)

      2. As for that cowardly, hypocritical, two-faced, treasonous, oathbreaking, all talk and no action weasel Lord Glover:
      – That dummy left WF without waiting for the Dragonglass shipment, so Deepwood Motte is effectively defenseless. Good thinking, jackass.
      – I’d bet he didn’t get five miles from WF before NK showed up to say hello; or alternatively,
      – If Glover does reach Deepwood Motte he’ll find a nice WW welcoming committee waiting for him. NK’s interior decorating of Glover’s castle with the limbs of denizens of House Glover and wightified Lord Glover himself will make the Episode 1 Last Hearth massacre look like a relaxing day at the spa by comparison.
      – He’ll wish Arya had lopped off his head last season when he was bitching about Jon and sucking up to Sansa.
      – It’s sickening to rewatch Glover (in S6e10) beg for forgiveness and express profound regret “til my dying day” for not fighting beside Jon vs. the Boltons, and then give a rousing speech reaffirming that House Glover will stand behind House Stark, and Glover himself will stand behind Jon Snow….
      It didn’t take him very long to resume being Lord Chickensh*t.

      PS Sorry if I haven’t made it abundantly clear that Lord Glover is not one of my favorite characters. 😬

        Quote  Reply

    79. Ten Bears,
      “see you for what you are.”

      Perhaps this has a hidden meaning. Maybe they/we will see her for what she is, truly, during events that transpire in the North. Her mettle will be tested what with the revelation of Jon’s true identity coupled with the lack of gratitude and hostility of the Northerners including Jon’s own fam, and perhaps she would feel all her struggles thus far were futile seeing as no she’s not the last Targ, not the true heir, doesn’t have a legit claim, lost one dragon, another one has bonded with Jon (which is what many see happening.) I think even if she does go a bit off the deep end we will actually be able to empathize with her.

        Quote  Reply

    80. Joey,
      “So Jamie is the only one in King’s Landing that decided to join them, and what, they’re going to put him on trial? You’ve got to be kidding me!”

      It looks that way, and yes, it irks me too. Surely they wouldn’t have forgotten what transpired just last season? Talk about a continuity error lol.

        Quote  Reply

    81. ygritte,

      Like the mighty mouse reference lol

      Where have all the bards and singers gone? Jon’s heroic journey beyond the wall, his face off with Cersei Lannister and rescue by the dragon queen would have made an epic song for a few Stark soldiers to be sent ahead singing. That Castamere ditty shows musical advertising really works. Wintertown would have loved them then.
      If they wanted to promote Dany specifically, they could do something like-

      The White Wolf’s Dragon Queen

      Twas on the eve of battle with an enemy unseen
      She came across the narrow sea after she freed Mereen
      She came with dragons counting three, one black, one gold, one green
      To aid our good king in the North, The White Wolf’s Dragon Queen

      I think that could have worked. But I know-everyone is in a jetpack hurry at this point and Thoros isn’t around to sing anything anymore 🙁

        Quote  Reply

    82. Mango,

      “Sansa is the main beneficiary of that deal with Cat. Arya turned down her [Brienne’s] offer.”
      ———–
      In ASNAWP’s defense, Brienne’s “offer” was virtually identical to Meryn F*cking Trant trying to take custody of Arya in S1. Trant showed up with Lannister soldiers while Arya was with her guardian Syrio, and said: “Arya Stark. Come with us, your father wants to see you.” Fortunately, Syrio interceded and wondered aloud why Eddard Stark would send Lannister men in place of his own.

      In strikingly similar suspicious circumstances, while Arya was under the protection of a different guardian, a southern stranger showed up with a Lannister gold sword and simply announced that Arya’s mother instructed her to take custody of Arya and bring her home. Brienne insisted, without proof, that she “swore” to Cat she’d bring her daughters home – but Cat was dead and Arya, while noting that Brienne wasn’t a Northerner, rightfully protested “I don’t care what you swore!” Just like Trant ignored Syrio’s questions and Arya’s reservations, Brienne ignored Arya’s refusal and resorted to violence and grievously wounded Arya’s guardian while attempting to abduct her. (And later, in S6e2, when Brienne told Sansa about the encounter with Arya and “the man” she was with, Brienne acknowledged that the man hadn’t hurt Arya; and that Arya didn’t want to leave him and he didn’t want to leave her.)
      Instead of talking things out or proposing a collaborative effort to safeguard Arya, stubborn Brienne – just like Meryn Trant – drew her sword and attacked Arya’s guardian.

      Under those circumstances, and keeping in mind Syrio’s lessons about “the true seeing”, why would Arya be expected to accept the “offer” of an apparent Lannister flunky who showed up out of nowhere with a story about instructions purportedly conveyed from her mother? Knowing that the Lannisters would pay handsomely to capture her, Arya would be an idiot to blindly trust a stranger carrying a Lannister gold Valyrian steel sword she got from the Kingslayer himself.

      Oh, and another thing: When Sansa first turned down Brienne’s offer, Brienne didn’t promptly draw her sword, attack LF, and try to abduct Sansa by force. Brienne, concerned about Sansa’s safety in the company of sh*tbag LF, prudently decided to follow LF’s carriage to be able to come to Sansa’s aid if necessary.
      Why didn’t Brienne back off and do the same thing with Sandor and Arya?

        Quote  Reply

    83. Sansa’s Knight:
      Honestly I do believe Sansa would make the best ruler – she’s proven it – she knows how to command yet after all the pain she’s been through she knows how to put the people’s needs first – her 1 flaw would be standing by old traditions like sending little Ned Umber the lord of his house to get his people to winterfell- then again I do believe she simply doesn’t understandthe threat of the white walkers yet – like she said so herself she’s a slow learner but she learns and episode 2 will be another lesson for her – once the white walkers have been dealt with however she would make an amazing queen with Arya as her queensguard and maybe Tyrion as her hand – Tyrion still confuses me after season 7 – I do believe he was putting his own childhood dreams before Danys invasion – that’s the only reason why he pushed for casterly rock instead of sending all their armies to KL in the first place – let’s not use a foreign army to take Westeros but let’s use them to take back my home – that was just selfish

      We haven’t seen all that much of Sansa leading (we certainly haven’t seen her in command as she hasn’t had anything to do with the military side of things). From what we saw, she seems to be doing it very well, but all we have seen is her being prudent about preparing winter food stores, making sure armaments are being prepared properly and a few occasions where she listened to the lords and pacified them. Other than that, have I missed something?

      I think she would make a great Lady of Winterfell, if she can develop some maturity in how to compose herself. Beyond simply being annoying, her rudeness and impropriety are not indicative of a strong ruler. She also needs to listen to council from others better as she tends to think she is right and no one else’s opinion holds as much weight as her own. She has been groomed by LF and Cersei, so she has inherited some of their negative traits. She needs to outgrow those and if she were given the time, and the safety to do so (giving her a chance to learn to trust and let her guard down), she would become a very strong leader.

      But a queen? I don’t think so. A monarch has to inspire their people (small folk and nobility alike). They have to be just, considerate and show strength when required. Sansa has not shown that she is able to do this at all so far. She had a chance to inspire devotion and show mercy when Jon decided to pardon the children of Umber and Karstark. She could have publicly agreed with Jon. Instead, she went against him. We all saw how Jon’s act of mercy resonated with the northern people. He inspires devotion. Sansa, so far, does not. Glover’s windvane declaration that perhaps they should have named her queen was more of LF’s scheming. Other than that, have people seemed devoted to her? Royse perhaps, but as he says, they came for her, he perhaps feels more aligned with her.

      I also don’t feel that Sansa has the personality required for inspiring devotion on a national level. She is cold, calculating, pragmatic at the cost of losing sight of what matters to her people (Umber and Karstark example), and quite rude. She hasn’t had a chance to show true leadership yet, but from what we have seen so far, Lady I’d Winterfell and Wardeness of the North would seem the perfect place for her. And truthfully, I think she would be happiest there. I don’t think Sansa has any desire to be queen of the seven kingdoms. Let her stay home, happy and in control.

        Quote  Reply

    84. Ten Bears,

      I really hope that Lord Glover pays for his treason but there’s a good chance he escapes the punishment. The Deepwood Motte is close to the seashore, so, he has a good chance to board a ship and sail away, while Jon holds the dead at Winterfell – would be a pretty reasonable strategy on his part.

      My only problem in this case is that Sansa takes this cowardish and self-preservant turncoat as a concience of the North and treats his treason as legit. I only hope that’s because she is pursuing her own interests and not because she is too stupid to see him through.

        Quote  Reply

    85. Ten Bears,

      > What’s so bad about surrendering and being held as a prisoner of war until hostilities cease? Absent some real emergency, there’s no excuse for killing POWs.

      No, it’s not bad, but I feel there is a slight difference here compared to the war between Robb and Tywin. Both Cersei and Daenerys are battling for the same lands, so they need the lords to openly support their claim. It’s an option to throw everyone of the other camp in a cell (if this works out practically, Roose Bolton’s “we have barely enough food to feed our own men” comes to mind) but that gives a different impression as when “these lords and/or soldiers of the Westerlands and Reach have accepted Daenerys as their Queen”. But it’s true that Daenerys choose to conquer by fear/power, which is bad PR. On the other hand, she spent a lot of time with the Dothraki (yes, making her a stranger to Westerosi customs). Ironically, in the end Cersei will be the one having a foreign army, I guess.

      I agree with you that Randyll should have been held as prisoner, for Westerosi PR but also for a different reason. You never know that these lords don’t turn behind your back when you become weaker, so I’d keep some of them hostage to ensure the loyalty of their family. So chain the father during the War and send the son back home.

      It’s a pity that the Tim McInnery (?) won’t be back as Lord Glover, it really reduces the options what will happen to their House.

        Quote  Reply

    86. Ten Bears,

      > Why didn’t Brienne back off and do the same thing with Sandor and Arya?

      I’m not sure if there is a character reason instead of a plot reason, but I would argue that she learned from her mistake (=brute force), as she found Arya before she found Sansa. She acknowledged “wary of strangers, as she should be”. I don’t think that she was more afraid of LF guards than of the Hound.

        Quote  Reply

    87. Che,

      Based of what we saw, I doubt that Sansa would make an all that perfect Wardeness of the North. I try to imagine her relationship with a king or queen and all I can’t imagine is Sansa being snarky and whingy and complaining about all and everything non-stop and showing little to no gratitude. Look at her realtions with Jon. And it’s not like she completely disrespects him but she is snarky out of habit at can’t help it. Same goes for her relations with other people. Remember, how she treated her septa back in S1? And now with Tyrion… Say what you want, but she ows him a lot and that obliges her to be more respectful and cooperative, even if she doesn’t approve on his alliance with Dany. Instead, Sansa was as rude as intimidating as one can be. So, my conclusion is that power brings up the worst of Sansa, and that’s a troubling thought.
      And BTW I’m not a Sansa hater – the same rule applies to everyone, including Jon. We still have to see what power makes with him, event though he might be less susceptible to corruption.

        Quote  Reply

    88. Ten Bears,

      Lord Glover did make it back to Deepwood Motte and presumbably it was not under siege – he was able to send a raven.

      It would be interesting if the White Walkers attacked the Motte before Winterfell, since it is fairly far to the west and they passed thru the Wall at the eastern edge.

      So Lord Glover might be around for a bit.

        Quote  Reply

    89. ygritte:
      Joey,
      “So Jamie is the only one in King’s Landing that decided to join them, and what, they’re going to put him on trial? You’ve got to be kidding me!”

      It looks that way, and yes, it irks me too. Surely they wouldn’t have forgotten what transpired just last season? Talk about a continuity error lol.

      Surely they wouldn’t have forgotten Jory Cassell? That would be a true continuity error.

        Quote  Reply

    90. Chreechree:
      RG,

      Oh, I know, but there’s been no mention of the Green Men or the mysterious nature of the God’s Eye. I fear it would feel too out of nowhere for most show watchers to make it central to the magic of the Old God’s/ CotF. Those are seeds that should’ve been planted many seasons ago, or at the latest by the Three Eyed Raven (no, not you, Bran!) before he died. King’s Landing as the endgame location makes sense for the show. Still, we can dream.

      Agreed. There has been zero mention of the Isle of Faces, let alone the Gods Eye lake itself.

        Quote  Reply

    91. Mango,

      Jaime will need to explain why he’s alone at the very least, and once people start talking in a public forum, stuff is just going to be brought up. Actions should have consequences and since the dead aren’t at the walls right yet, Jaime should spend at least some time squirming for his various misbehavior. And have a chance to set some records straight too.

        Quote  Reply

    92. Mango: I am with you on something like a trail.

      Earning forgiveness from who?

      Jaime ambushed Ned in King’s Landing, killed his plucky northmen men who were innocent of any wrongdoing, and killed Jory Cassell. Then Jaime fled the city, which is essentially an admission of guilt.

      He should at least be called on the carpet for this, because when he showed up to harrass Ned and his men, he made it clear that Ned was nobody in King’s Landing now that Ned had surrendered his post as Hand. “You’re just the lord of some place far away.”

      Well now Jaime is in that place. And his actions should have consequences.

        Quote  Reply

    93. Dark Sister,

      Thank you, Dark Sister. I have forgotten so much of the foreshadowing you have mentioned. Dany’s break-the-wheel speech did point to breaking something, perhaps the monarchy, and yet she seems to want the power as much as anyone, including Viserys and Cersei. Will she really give it up?

      As for the Broken Man speech, the commoners are definitely dissatisfied with the status quo, but I’m not convinced something different would be something better.

      RG: When I think about this I think about the insane number of people we’ve lost over the last few years in Westeros. Most armies have been depleted and a majority of the major houses have been destroyed.
      Heck the Mountain and his crew were just burning villages left and right in the first few seasons.

      Thank you, RG. I’ve really been enjoying all your posts – and Dark Sister’s.

      Would the end of a large monarchy mean less war? I personally would not think so. Smaller monarchies seem even more susceptible to invasion, even riper for the picking. Five of the Seven Kingdoms already tried that, tried breaking away, right? And how did that work out for them?

      Democracy. Roman society was one of the closest and the oldest examples we have. Not a true democracy but rather a republic, but that is actually what the US is, too: I pledge allegiance to the republic. Did they have war? You betcha! They had soldiers and conquerors and bloodthirsty leaders and deaths and torture. Perhaps they did have a much better quality of life than Westeros, but what about the nations they conquered? I don’t actually know.

      Perhaps my biggest reason for expecting to see someone on the Iron Throne at the end of the tale is that GRRM said in a very old interview that he didn’t want to install a king and just say he was a good king like in LotR. What were the tax policies? How did the king deal with this, that, and the other? He wanted to thoroughly explore the details of leadership. He wanted to show that ruling was hard. Will he go through 7000 pages of showing how hard ruling is just to throw that all away at the end and say, now we have a democracy, and they all lived happily ever after?

      He could, actually! My bet is that he won’t, but I thank you both for helping me understand why so many believe the Iron Throne will melt away.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/amp/

        Quote  Reply

    94. RG:
      Chreechree,

      All I’ve ever wanted is to see Howland Reed meet Jon. *sniffles*
      Although-you can see the God’s Eye in the new intro so-I live in hope for a last minute flashback to Isle of Faces/tourney/KotLT

      Wait? What? Where is the
      new intro?!!! Do you mean the preview of the next episode? Where do we see the God’s Eye? I’ve not been so keen on Reed as seeing that tourney and the Knight of the Laughing Tree! I hope D&D realize what an amazing story that is and do it justice, truly.

        Quote  Reply

    95. Patrick Sponaugle: Jaime ambushed Ned in King’s Landing, killed his plucky northmen men who were innocent of any wrongdoing, and killed Jory Cassell. Then Jaime fled the city, which is essentially an admission of guilt.

      He should at least be called on the carpet for this, because when he showed up to harrass Ned and his men, he made it clear that Ned was nobody in King’s Landing now that Ned had surrendered his post as Hand. “You’re just the lord of some place far away.”

      Well now Jaime is in that place. And his actions should have consequences.

      Yes, Jaime is not in a powerful position so yes, the Starks may flex their political muscle.

      Let us see what happens in the episode, I do not expect fuss much from them however. Sansa lives because of Jaime and Brienne. At the end of S7, Bran, Sansa and Arya killed LF because of his manipulation of their parents and the resulting decline btw the Starks and the Lannisters. The kidnap of Tyrion was a direct result of Cat believing LF re the knife.

      Several points to note on the original scene:
      1. On actions and consequences – What did Cat think would be the consequences of kidnapping Tyrion? That Tywin and Jaime would stay at home sobbing?

      2. Yes, it was an aggressive course of action by Jaime. Tyrion is physically challenged and cannot protect himself. Time was critical – he had to move before Tyrion was killed. (Tyrion would have been killed if Bronn did not love money!) A younger more volatile Jaime was upset and had few options to save Tyrion. One of which was to take Ned hostage and try to exchange him for Tyrion.

      3. Tyrion under desperate circumstances in the Vale also knew that Jaime was his best hope. So reliable was Jaime for the people he loved. Jaime was/is a “boss brother” – yes, even when he does rash things for the love of his siblings.

      4. One of the most amusing features of that scene was that LF was also there. Just think, LF must have been so happy to enjoy his handiwork.

      5. Ned’s response to Jaime was protective of Cat but also would not have deescalated the problem. Ned had few options. Surrounded by a larger gang and one of the best fighters in the land, I would have gone for a different response. Jaime did not come in fighting; he actually asked what’s up? Something like – My wife is an honest woman, I am sure there is a good reason. Let us a send a few men out, bring your brother back to the city and see what are the charges. Actually, where is Tywin, we need to attend to this before anyone is hurt. This is what I would have done to protect my outnumbered men and handle a politically volatile situation. But I am not honourable Ned.

      6. Jory death is unfortunate but it was in a fight. Jory attacked Jaime. I suppose he was defending Ned who saw he was outnumbered and declined to defuse. Maybe Ned thought LF was really going to get the city watch. Ned, Ned, Ned – your inability to judge people will cause your death.

      7. As for fleeing the city as an admission of guilt. Maybe. Two comments: (i) The incident had gotten out of hand so leaving and heading out to Tywin was a good decision. This would actually deescalate the situation. Let me leave town while this snafu and tempers calm down and he gets that leg treated. Also Tywin need to know what went down. (ii) If he had taken Ned into custody, I think he was heading there anyway and would have dragged Ned out there with him to engage Tywin. That would not have been a bad plan to save Tyrion. I do not remember what Jaime’s plan was but he was not there to kill Ned but knew he would have to fight Ned’s guard to take Ned. He wanted his brother to be safe.

      8. The most important thing I remember from the scene is that Jaime did not kill Ned when he could. Ned did not behave with the same honour toward The Sword of the Morning. Both men were attempting to save their siblings. I am also interested in why Bran was shown that scene. And why the audience was shown that scene – it may have been to help us understand Ned more clearly.

        Quote  Reply

    96. Mango,
      Yeah, those are all defenses of a sort for Jaime that we as viewers (being there) can give. Even for what would be considered his worst actions we have the ability to know what happened and how he handled himself, what motivated him. He’s become a fan favorite because we see the ‘good’ in him.

      The characters he must face do not have the luxury we have in most cases and judge him by word of mouth alone. Arya and Sansa, who were in KL at the time, are probably completely under the belief that Jaime and his men simply attacked Ned. Even though they probably heard conflicting reports I’m pretty sure memory and feelings will not favor Jaime. Almost everything he’s ever done is going to seem bad to those in the North and Daenerys. He has to rely on Bran, Tyrion (with little weight for most), Brienne and a bit of Pod perhaps to give him any kind of positives.

        Quote  Reply

    97. Ginevra,

      Eh. This “break the wheel” slogan is getting old. All I’ve seen is lots of conscripts and “small folk” getting roasted, skewered, starved and drowned as a result of Dany’s “liberation” of the oppressed people. Sometimes I get the impression she just wants to give that wheel another spin so House Targaryen can be on top again. Did I miss any plans to do away with nobles and hold free elections so the common folk could select their own representatives to govern themselves?

      To my knowledge, there’s only one character who has addressed a broken wheel – by fixing it.

      It’s at 0:34 of this clip.

        Quote  Reply

    98. Clob:
      Mango,
      Yeah, those are all defenses of a sort for Jaime that we as viewers (being there) can give.Even for what would be considered his worst actions we have the ability to know what happened and how he handled himself, what motivated him.He’s become a fan favorite because we see the ‘good’ in him.

      The characters he must face do not have the luxury we have in most cases and judge him by word of mouth alone.Arya and Sansa, who were in KL at the time, are probably completely under the belief that Jaime and his men simply attacked Ned.Even though they probably heard conflicting reports I’m pretty sure memory and feelings will not favor Jaime.Almost everything he’s ever done is going to seem bad to those in the North and Daenerys.He has to rely on Bran, Tyrion (with little weight for most), Brienne and a bit of Pod perhaps to give him any kind of positives.

      I know. Let us see how the episode plays it. My expectation is the Starks are pretty chill on Jaime but can flex their political muscle if they choose.

      In S7, Sansa encouraged Brienne to go the Dragonpit by saying Ser Jaime will be there. That did not sound to me like Sansa had any grudges against Jaime. Sansa, Bran and Arya also took a position at the LF trial on the reasons for the Stark/Lannister problems.

      Jaime is NOT on Arya’s famous list. If you think she heard about him killing Jory, well OK. But he did not make this famous list despite it. Arya knows that Jaime sent Brienne to help her. Brienne nearly died to help Arya. Arya also saw Jaime at the Frey’s and did not harm him. She might not love him but I would be surprised to see hostile sparks fly. And Arya likes fighters like Jaime used to be – they may have something to chat about.

      Jon knows Jaime is heading there. He went to KL to invite Jaime to join them.

      Bran and Jaime have outstanding matters. But luckily Bran also can know the entire story if he wants. Bran can know exactly what the audience knows. So from a storytelling point of view to start an inquisition would be well past strange.

      As for the push, let us see how that works out. (As an audience we all know this is train decision problem.)

        Quote  Reply

    99. Clob: The characters he must face do not have the luxury we have in most cases and judge him by word of mouth alone. Arya and Sansa, who were in KL at the time, are probably completely under the belief that Jaime and his men simply attacked Ned.

      Boy oh boy, did Catelyn screw up in season 1.

      She took Tyrion prisoner on circumstantial evidence given by Littlefinger of all people. She had to know that this would create a shit storm for her husband and daughters who were living in KL at the time, one of the most dangerous places in Westeros.

      Of all the poor decisions made by characters on this show, Catelyn’s has to be up there among the worst and most short-sided.

        Quote  Reply

    100. Mango: Yes, Jaime is not in a powerful position so yes, the Starks may flex their political muscle.

      7.As for fleeing the city as an admission of guilt. Maybe. .

      I agree with many of your points, and I hope we see them considered on the show, but – and I recognize Westeros isn’t medieval England but it is a close parallel – fleeing the scene of a crime was the fastest way to be branded an outlaw, and people could legally kill the outlaw without consequence.

      Saying that Jory died because he was attacking Jaime is the defense Cersei gave. You don’t want her as your character witness. Jaime had just ordered his men to kill Ned’s guards. And they did. Jaime is not blameless in this scenario, that he precipitated.

      Catelyn Stark could have just lynched Tyrion, and that might have justified Jaime’s actions. But that didn’t happen.

        Quote  Reply

    101. My theory for what it is worth, is all this Dany conflict could be intentional foreshadowing
      Dany as she said but if Sansa doesn’t respect me and the dragons eat what they like line and the looking up at her dragons proudly as the northers hated her coming into town,
      is leading to her doing something they disagree with, maybe falling out with jon either over the throne or family or something she does,
      Tyirion and Vayrs will betray her when they find out jon is the rightful ruler, and maybe that could be the thing that turns them against her,
      the foretold scene of her in kings landing with the whole in the roof and snow at the thone a she turns away and the dragon call, could be that she is the one who burns kings landing kills people and starts to regret it, then you have the whole prophecy of killing the one you live to forge the sword that can kill the night king, which is where jon steps in,
      just a theory that is not posted anywhere, personally i think she will give up the throne in the end when its in her grasp, either after being a mad queen of vengeance and regretting it, or out of love, but she will turn her back on it in the end.
      the books sam has will matter, the red woman will be the key, and jamie is vital for the end, ep 5 could be full of twists

        Quote  Reply

    102. Patrick Sponaugle,

      Cat was acting under a misunderstanding. I grant her that. LF really played her.

      I remember Cat warning Robb about offending the Freys. I wonder if she thought about the downsides to offending Tywin.

      We differ on our view of action and consequences of killing Tyrion. I do not think Jaime confronting Ned is the street would have been the expected outcome of Cat lynching Tyrion. Tywin and Jaime had an exchange in the tent about the kidnap of Tyrion. Killing Tyrion? Oye! If Cat had killed Tyrion then she would not have lived to attend the Red Wedding. Twyin ain’t playing.

      I am not citing Cersei. And I am not saying Jaime is blameless – there is lots of fault to go around. I replayed the clip on You Tube. Yes, Jaime threatened the entire group and ordered his guys to kill Ned’s men but take Ned alive. Then he stepped back, sword in hand but was a non-participant in the fight. Jory voluntarily came over to engage Jaime. Maybe Jory was trying to help Ned – who was prolly expecting the city watch. Lots of wrong decisions all-round. Lots of opportunities to deescalate passed up.

      If Tyrion was allowed to eat his pie at the Inn and continue his journey home – none of this would have happened. Even if Cat saw Tyrion kill Bran – I think she should have let his go…she had two daughter and her man in KL. She at least could have tried working thru the King with her complaints.

        Quote  Reply

    103. Ginevra,

      I just checked original intro and you could see it before in the distance, but in this one, as you’re diving into KL view, it’s just really prevalent and oddly, looks closer. Also oddly, there is a land bridge instead of an island in the center of the lake, which would make it easier for white walkers to get to it.

      Ginevra:
      Dark Sister,

      Thank you, RG. I’ve really been enjoying all your posts – and Dark Sister’s.

      Perhaps my biggest reason for expecting to see someone on the Iron Throne at the end of the tale is that GRRM said in a very old interview that he didn’t want to install a king and just say he was a good king like in LotR. What were the tax policies? How did the king deal with this, that, and the other?He wanted to thoroughly explore the details of leadership. He wanted to show that ruling was hard. Will he go through 7000 pages of showing how hard ruling is just to throw that all away at the end and say, now we have a democracy, and they all lived happily ever after?

      He could, actually!My bet is that he won’t, but I thank you both for helping me understand why so many believe the Iron Throne will melt away.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/amp/

      Great points and I think you’re probably right about GRRM’s plans.
      Although in all his lessons and details of ruling, no one has actually done a good job. Mad King, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei, Dany in Mereen etc.
      The Wildlings only came together under Mance with the threat of WW and imminent death.
      There hasn’t been a single example of truly decent, sustainable leadership in monarchy form in the entire series. Just stories of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, or Egg’s failed attempts to institute a kinder, gentler monarchy for the people without dragons. (though he did say with dragons he could make it happen, so maybe Jon’s namesake will be the template)

      But that’s why I’m leaning toward council or more democracy. Also Tyrion mentioned NW and Ironborn when discussing Dany’s future plans for succession and wheel breaking-King’s Moot and LC votes both sound highly democratic.

      I will add that as Warden in the North, Ned apparently did a fantastic job with barely any issues.
      Maybe they’ll give the wardens more power and more say in how the country is run?

      It is interesting to consider all the possibilities while we can. 🙂

        Quote  Reply

    104. Mango,

      A bit off the subject of the matter, but I do miss the badass swordsman Jaime (‘s abilities). Of course, if he hadn’t lost his hand the rest of his story is probably completely different from that point on.

        Quote  Reply

    105. Ten Bears,

      Yes, I am not saying that Arya was wrong to refuse the offer made by Brienne. Arya had solid reasons to refuse. And then while they were fighting she took the good opportunity to get away completely.

      This raises the whole question of whether Jaime and Brienne should have really bothered to try! It was well meant…In the book Brienne’s search allows the author to do lots of world building.

        Quote  Reply

    106. Mr Derp,

      Of all the poor decisions made by characters on this show, Catelyn’s has to be up there among the worst and most short-sided.

      Well, the first one is what started the story – she convinced Ned to be Hand of the King (tho I remember that in the book, was it the same in the show?)

        Quote  Reply

    107. Clob:
      I’d say Tywin is the smartest person Arya ever met.I just had to throw that out there.😛

      Tywin
      Syrio
      Yoren had great instincts
      Lady Crane seemed observant
      Gendry is the one who questioned her 3 deaths (You could have ended the war)
      Beric is a philosopher
      Bran is literally the Encyclopedia of Westeros
      😉

        Quote  Reply

    108. Ten Bears:
      Ginevra,
      It’s at 0:34 of this clip.

      Ha! Yeah, I’m completely convinced Dany has grand plans; and I’m almost as completely convinced that she wouldn’t follow them through. I’m trying not to say that so loudly, though, because I know not everyone feels the same.

      I know a killer! A real killer… You’d be like a kitten to him. He’d kill you with his little finger.

      I miss Baby Arya soooo much!

        Quote  Reply

    109. ash:
      Mr Derp,

      Well, the first one is what started the story – she convinced Ned to be Hand of the King (tho I remember that in the book, was it the same in the show?)

      In the show she said the opposite, but yes, taking Tyrion was a really bad move. As well as giving in to Walder as to who Robb was going to marry. Everything else, sure, but that was one concession too many.
      Every time I rewatch I want to yell at the television when she’s on screen.
      Not just because she’s evil to Jon. But for all her mother-centric speeches she left her kids behind a lot to play war. Left tiny boys, one injured and in need of her, in Winterfell, even after she knew Robb was no longer there. Didn’t insist her daughters-at least Arya-come home with her after she believed the Lannisters attempted to kill Bran.

      I’ll say the best thing she did was partner with Brienne.

      But then if she hadn’t made all those mistakes, we have a different story.

        Quote  Reply

    110. RG:
      Ginevra,

      I just checked original intro and you could see it before in the distance, but in this one, as you’re diving into KL view, it’s just really prevalent and oddly, looks closer. Also oddly, there is a land bridge instead of an island in the center of the lake, which would make it easier for white walkers to get to it.

      I should’ve better phrased my question: Where can I find this new intro? The title sequence for Episode 1 is on YouTube and of course at the beginning of the episode on HBOgo.com, but I haven’t seen the opening sequence for Episode 2 anywhere. Did I miss it? #clueless

      Although in all his lessons and details of ruling, no one has actually done a good job. Mad King, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Cersei, Dany in Mereen etc.
      The Wildlings only came together under Mance with the threat of WW and imminent death.
      There hasn’t been a single example of truly decent, sustainable leadership in monarchy form in the entire series. Just stories of Jaehaerys and Alysanne, or Egg’s failed attempts to institute a kinder, gentler monarchy for the people without dragons. (though he did say with dragons he could make it happen, so maybe Jon’s namesake will be the template)

      Well, I am definitely biased as are we all, but I believe Jon to be a wonderful example of a good person who is a good ruler. In the books, he only ruled the Night’s Watch, not as a king but showing great leadership qualities, IMO. GRRM shows him making very hard decisions, but George has strongly implied that he feels he made the right decisions, nevertheless, and I would tend to agree. The one thing he did poorly was not seeing the murder plot coming.

      In the show, one could well argue that his willingness to bend the knee is a poor quality in a monarch! I would agree. He didn’t know that he was the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms when bending the knee, and bending did prove that he was humble enough not to crave power and want more and more of it, which is perhaps the biggest flaw in most of the rulers you’ve mentioned. Yes, the way he bent the knee seemed a bit needless and silly in the show, and I love D&D but they aren’t always as thorough as George, of course. So Jon’s bending could be more justified and better explained when it happens in the books.

        Quote  Reply

    111. Clob:
      Mango,

      A bit off the subject of the matter, but I do miss the badass swordsman Jaime (‘s abilities).Of course, if he hadn’t lost his hand the rest of his story is probably completely different from that point on.

      Yeah, would have been neat. But his identity arc is worth it…..

        Quote  Reply

    112. RG,

      Not a Catelyn fan, either. I used to say that pre-death, she was a bit of a bitch. Lady Stoneheart was full-on bitch.

      I could imagine being beyond livid if a husband cheats. I could never imagine taking that anger out on a child.

        Quote  Reply

    113. Ginevra,

      Jon would be fantastic. I’m all for Jon and always have been. Honestly, only Davos comes close to having his wisdom and compassion and desire to unify. But there’s a part of me that thinks about his magical resurrection, his tendency for self-sacrifice etc and I’m worried about whether or not he’ll get there. (Now I’m depressed again)

      Also the intro is for the new season-not Episode 2. I think I explained that badly lol

        Quote  Reply

    114. Catelyn and Ned are the main reasons I have a hard time re-watching Season 1. They are just so blisteringly stupid.

      The one smart thing Ned did was not trust her with Jon’s secret.

      Catelyn: I can’t believe you let the bastard play with our son
      Ned: OK, look. Here’s the deal. You can’t tell anyone.
      Catelyn: What?
      Ned: That’s my nephew. Lyanna’s kid.
      Catelyn: WHAT?
      Ned: He’s a Targaryen. Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other.
      Catelyn: So, they loved each other? Lyanna went willingly?
      Ned: Pretty sure. It tracks with a couple things she said about Robert.
      Catelyn: So… your hot brother Brandon, the one I was SUPPOSED to marry, got himself killed thinking Lyanna was being raped?
      Ned: Well, that took a turn I wasn’t expecting…

        Quote  Reply

    115. RG:
      Ginevra,

      But there’s a part of me that thinks about his magical resurrection, his tendency for self-sacrifice etc and I’m worried about whether or not he’ll get there. (Now I’m depressed again)

      My hopes and expectations for Jon were very tempered in later seasons…the show seemed to strip down his character in a way that set him up as the sacrificial hero. I felt that the books, which I caught up on by s5, gave him more strengths and made him more of a leader…perhaps to muddy the waters and make it more of a twist in the gut when(if) he falls?
      In any case by s7 I was convinced Jon would sacrifice himself in some way, for the good of the realm so to speak, although since then I came into s8 with some renewed hope.
      But my biggest fear is not that he will die, as I somewhat made my peace with that. It’s that he will be tortured in some way – such as ending up like the NK. I didn’t like the E1 “we could stay here for a thousand years” calling back to “we’ll go back there” (to Ygritte about the cave). I hope that is hinting at something else or nothing at all!
      I just think his parentage is important for a less obvious reason than being heir to the throne.
      And frankly I think the fandom would riot if he ended up on the throne, no matter how awful the circumstances.

      Seems they are trying to convince us that Sansa would make the best ruler. I would feel better about that if a) she would stop giving off Cersei vibes and b) she would meet Tywin’s definition of a good leader, as shared with Tommen…surround yourself with wise advisors and listen. LF doesn’t count! We haven’t seen her LEADING by seeking council and then making decisions and action plans, just as a magical know-it-all that makes everyone else look stupid.

        Quote  Reply

    116. Ten Bears:
      Dark Sister,

      “I have to agree with Davos that Dany will definitely have to earn the respect of Northerners…”
      _____In retrospect, it’s kind of a shame that there was only one Northerner in the Snow Patrol who could attest to Dany’s heroism at the Frozen Lake, and he (Jorah) is a disgraced fugitive who’s probably not Mr. Popularity among the Mormonts. Then again, if the grumpy Northerners (like Lyanna Mormont*, unrepentant? Sansa, Vale lord Royce, and others keep complaining about Jon’s abdication, continue whining about the Queen who’s cast aside her own ambitions and risked everything in order to come to their defense, or persist in arguing about food supplies; there’s always the Sandor Parliamentary Procedure Option, e.g.:

      Jon: “The Army of the Dead will soon be at our door. We must band together now or none of us will survive. There’s no time to squabble about supplies, rations or titles.”

      Lyanna Mormont: “You don’t seem to understand the situation. We didn’t choose Daenerys Targaryen as our queen, and we don’t have nearly enough beef and poultry to sustain her armies. What you have to understand is…”

      Sandor (stands up): “I understand that if any more words come pouring out your c*nt mouth, I’m going to have to eat every f*cking chicken on this continent.”

      (She starts slinkingback into her chair.)

      Sandor: “But first get me some wine. Listening to all of your yammering has made me thirsty.”

      * Hi Clob!

      Ten Bears, you are on a serious role! Please keep it going…. (sorry but I have my favorites!)

        Quote  Reply

    117. Winterkat: We haven’t seen her LEADING by seeking council and then making decisions and action plans, just as a magical know-it-all that makes everyone else look stupid.

      Or rather, as someone who thinks she is making everyone else look stupid. Certainly from my perspective, she looks pretty 2-dimensional and ‘stupid’ to be mouthing off about the armies and dragons that have come to save them (and indeed for thinking the North can cope as an independent Kingdom in the first place).

        Quote  Reply

    118. Absolutely no one seems to see what I see (so I’m probably wrong) –
      To me it looks like the show is building up to Daenerys going slightly bonkers: the Mad Queen, ordering her dragons to ‘burn them all’. Once violent and crazed, Jon is forced to put Longclaw through her (Nissa Nissa).

        Quote  Reply

    119. Winterkat,

      Maybe Jon and Dany will be the new Night King and Night Queen?
      Like in Pirates of the Caribbean, Will Turner took the place of Davy Jones because the Dutchman (ship) must have a captain.

        Quote  Reply

    120. … but she hasn’t done anything “bonkers” since right after FoF2… I think the feeling of “Mad Queen” on Daenerys is slightly blown out of proportion considering the things she’s done to support a person’s perception of her or theories for her. A couple of the instances included were actually necessary or ‘reasonable’ considering the situation.

        Quote  Reply

    121. This is one thing that this story (in both media) does really well: not have the “good guys” simply fall into line. The popular press is viewing this as an allegory for how people are dealing with climate change, but what this really represents is how people deal with things when they don’t understand everything and (in many cases) do not want to understand everything. We’ve got a small number of characters (Jon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Bran) who know what’s coming; we’ve got more characters (Sansa, Arya, most of the northerners) who accept that something bad is coming, but who fail to appreciate the enormity of the danger. And, of course, we’ve got people like Cersei who thinks that this can all work to her advantage if she does nothing.

      Thats’s not just climate change: that’s every big “threat” human societies ever have encountered. The sad part is that, after Winterfell falls, many of the “skeptics” will blame Jon, Daenerys, etc., for failing to inform them of just how deep a pile of feces they were!

      By the way, Luka has tweeted a really insightful speculation on Twitter. Read it!

        Quote  Reply

    122. WorfWWorfington:
      Mango,

      Dany: You killed my Dad. You killed your King
      Jaime: Yes, I did. Your father just ordered his necromancers to burn the entire city to the ground. I saved lives and I’m fucking done apologizing for it.
      Bran: Ahem
      Jaime: I AM SO SORRY!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE DON’T KILL ME!!!!!!!!
      All: WTF?
      Bran: Yes, I know what you’ll do for love, Ser Jaime.
      Jaime: I would do anything, but I won’t do that…
      Sansa: Your father roasted my grandfather alive… your grace. Your father watched our uncle strangle himself trying to help his father. Your brother kidnapped and raped my aunt.
      Sam: Uh, actually….
      Gilly: NOT NOW! LATER!
      Brienne: If I may… Ser Jaime made an oath to Lady Catelyn
      Lady Stoneheart: Did someone call?
      D&D: FOR THE LAST TIME, NO! GEORGE TOLD US YOU DON’T MEAN ANYTHING! TAKE IT UP WITH HIM!
      Brienne: He swore to protect Sansa and Arya. He honored the North. He fights for the living. He gives me a tingly feeling in my girly parts
      Tormund: Go on…
      The Hound: So did I, when I kicked you there
      Tormund: GO ON….!

      LOVE the Meatloaf reference. YOU WIN.

        Quote  Reply

    123. Che,

      Was just re-reading your earlier comment…we’re pretty much on the same page! Although I’m not sure whether Sansa would want the IT 🤔. She certainly feels as entitled to rule the north as Dany does to rule Westeros. (I see parallels in the way she was determined to reclaim Winterfell, which was lost in war, when the north mostly didn’t support it…and she used an “outside” army – the Vale – to do it. She is obviously far better than the Boltons, and so is Dany better than Cersei)
      To be clear, I meant that the writers are making others look stupid, like with the armor thing in s7. Or the need to feed armies (although that comment makes HER look stupid and/or petty, with the AOTD through the wall and bearing down them). If she called for a discussion on these topics it would make her look better.
      I think she’s right to question Jon, yes men don’t add a lot of value and she does have complementary experience…if only we could see her do it in a more collaborative way. Undermining him contributed to losing Lord Glover.

        Quote  Reply

    124. Chilli,

      Hmmm, maybe not so bad if they are together?
      I didn’t follow the whole PitC series…weren’t he and Keira Knightly’s character a couple? Was it a sad ending…like he was kind of a martyr?

      PS not sure if you ever saw my reply to you on a much earlier thread…tl;dr I am not Dutch-speaking 😕

        Quote  Reply

    125. I wonder why people think, Sansa is stupid to question, how they shall feed an army of thousands and thousands and two dragons, when the AotD comes right ahead the door.
      Feeding people, especially soldiers in action is a very important thing! Men must eat to be strong and brave enough to fight. No food, no courage.
      In war food is as existencial as weapons, every army has pursers.
      People cry, how stupid it was to burn the loot train, same people cry, how stupid and arrogant Sansa is to insist, how important enough food is.
      Sansa is pragmatic – and it’s true: pragmatic people are not charismatic -, someone must have the feet on the ground, while others make plans. And she is forward-looking: there is a time after the battle, what, if the breathing win? One shouldn’t rule this thought out.
      In my eyes her arguing is completely reasonable.

        Quote  Reply

    126. Winterkat: he certainly feels as entitled to rule the north as Dany does to rule Westeros.

      Well, strictly speaking, both are! After all, the only thing that entitles you to anything in their world is that daddy or granddaddy had the title and there are not any older brothers or descendants of older brothers in the way. Both Daenerys and Sansa have spent multiple years thinking that restoring the family titles from usurpers has fallen entirely upon them. Sansa only learned in the last year that Bran is alive, and even now he’s removed from the succession (in part by choice, but as he is a cripple, there would be no acclamation for him.) Daenerys has yet to learn about Jon’s parentage.

      Now, this is all very anachronistic: but, then our ideas of “earning” things are anachronistic for this sort of society. The concept of “new money” meaning anything is a long ways away! Moreover, if Martin or Benioff & Weiss expected us to be thinking that there is some Republican (19th century, not 21st!) theme here, then they should have started making this prominent many years ago.

        Quote  Reply

    127. cos alpha: I wonder why people think, Sansa is stupid to question, how they shall feed an army of thousands and thousands and two dragons, when the AotD comes right ahead the door.

      The issue that people are taking with Sansa’s response is that many people are interpreting this as Sansa saying “we don’t need you here” and that Sansa should understand that she actually needs every person. However, this is not stupidity so much as ignorance: Sansa simply does not comprehend how powerful this enemy is.

      This is always a problem for audiences in multiprotagonist stories: we get to see all of the narrative threads, and it’s too easy to forget that Sansa didn’t watch the Hardhome or Beyond the Wall episodes. She’s thinking of the White Walkers as a threat rivaling the threat of the Lannisters (maybe), whereas we know that the Lannisters are not a fraction of the threat that the White Walkers are.

        Quote  Reply

    128. Wimsey: Well, strictly speaking, both are!After all, the only thing that entitles you to anything in their world is that daddy or granddaddy had the title and there are not any older brothers or descendants of older brothers in the way.Both Daenerys and Sansa have spent multiple years thinking that restoring the family titles from usurpers has fallen entirely upon them.Sansa only learned in the last year that Bran is alive, and even now he’s removed from the succession (in part by choice, but as he is a cripple, there would be no acclamation for him.)Daenerys has yet to learn about Jon’s parentage.

      Now, this is all very anachronistic: but, then our ideas of “earning” things are anachronistic for this sort of society.The concept of “new money” meaning anything is a long ways away!Moreover, if Martin or Benioff & Weiss expected us to be thinking that there is some Republican (19th century, not 21st!) theme here, then they should have started making this prominent many years ago.

      I’m on board with all of that, though I could never have said it so eloquently 🙂
      My comment is more of a reaction to those who bash Dany for her sense of entitlement whilst cheering Sansa. I think that’s one trait they share. But perhaps some people find it more justified in Sansa – to the point that they don’t see it as entitlement-because of differences in circumstances.

        Quote  Reply

    129. Wimsey: Well, strictly speaking, both are!After all, the only thing that entitles you to anything in their world is that daddy or granddaddy had the title and there are not any older brothers or descendants of older brothers in the way.Both Daenerys and Sansa have spent multiple years thinking that restoring the family titles from usurpers has fallen entirely upon them.Sansa only learned in the last year that Bran is alive, and even now he’s removed from the succession (in part by choice, but as he is a cripple, there would be no acclamation for him.)Daenerys has yet to learn about Jon’s parentage.

      Now, this is all very anachronistic: but, then our ideas of “earning” things are anachronistic for this sort of society.The concept of “new money” meaning anything is a long ways away!Moreover, if Martin or Benioff & Weiss expected us to be thinking that there is some Republican (19th century, not 21st!) theme here, then they should have started making this prominent many years ago.

      Several characters have earned their way in this D&D GOT story:

      – Davos is the head of a new house. He earned it through services.

      – Bronn is now Sir Bronn and working on a castle. How? He earned it through services.

      – Cersei has superseded her father. By violence and cunning, she is now ruling Queen. This is not something her daddy or husband gave her. (With husband, she was wife Queen not ruling queen.)

      – Even before the period of the story, Aegon and his sisters did not claim to be entitled to rule the seven kingdoms because of their Daddy. They did it the same way that Cersei did – through violence and cunning. They had dragons and Cersi had wildfire.

      – We also have Brienne and Jaime who are both entitled to inheritances to rule limited territories. Both have chosen lives of service for the interim. They have NOT claimed what their Daddy entitled.

      – In contrast, we have Tyrion (re Lord of Casterley Rock) and Daenerys (re Queen of Westeros) avidly pursuing roles that were not intended for them. Rights from their Daddies that are arguably not their rights at all.

        Quote  Reply

    130. RG:
      Ginevra,

      Also the intro is for the new season-not Episode 2. I think I explained that badly lol

      Ah, okay! Thank you. I did miss that one, actually, until you mentioned it and the New Rockstars opening breakdown (at 4 minutes 25 seconds). I didn’t picture it right next to King’s Landing, which is part of why it didn’t strike me as that.

        Quote  Reply

    131. Ginevra,

      Yay confirmation I’m not crazy alone! 🙂

      I know it hasn’t been mentioned in the show, but one helpful vision from Bran could get us there. Come on Isle of Faces *crossing things*

        Quote  Reply

    132. cos alpha: I wonder why people think, Sansa is stupid to question, how they shall feed an army of thousands and thousands and two dragons, when the AotD comes right ahead the door.
      Feeding people, especially soldiers in action is a very important thing! Men must eat to be strong

      The issue is that Sansa isn’t asking how they feed them “now.” She questioned and complained about how they’re suppose to feed them long term through the Winter.

      For the short term one would think J&D had quite a bit of provisions on the road. They did have to feed that army for the long voyage from Dragonstone. One might suggest they arrived with enough remaining for a little while.

      Sansa’s vision is still apparently entirely on normal living and simply having enough food until Winter is over. She and others have been continually told it’s not the time to squabble about (this) and (that), yet it seems to fall on deaf ears. She doesn’t appear to be focused on or even believing that Death is marching at them and just days away!!

      If everyone is killed she doesn’t need to feed “the greatest army the world has ever seen.” If they somehow win it will still be with massive losses. Most of the remaining will leave for home or to fight elsewhere. If they have to retreat somewhere they won’t be hauling wagons of food. In any scenario Winterfell is not going to be hosting thousands of people for months and months. That is why people are saying her focus on that is stupid in their situation.

        Quote  Reply

    133. cos alpha,

      Of course feeding the armies is important. So basic and important that it stretches credulity for us (me anyway) and/or Sansa to believe that none of the other leaders and advisors would think about it. There are MANY logistical issues. It’s a valid question, the problem is the manner in which she raised it. She’s being petulant, marking her territory and giving Dany a big “FU, we don’t want you here”

      If she doesn’t think the north needs the help, she is *willfully* ignorant – dismissing what Jon has told them. Basically that makes Jon right – she thinks she’s smarter than everyone else. I think she DOES recognize they need help, but not the extent of it…and isn’t ready to rise above the politics (I suppose LF’s training would say she never should – this is GOT, and she’s got her eye on the power structure)

      Practically speaking, they now know the war will come within days. And that could change everything…how much of the north will be wiped out? How soon can the armies leave? When the dust settles they can reassess the food stores…and discuss how Dany can help pick up the pieces.

        Quote  Reply

    134. Clob: The issue is that Sansa isn’t asking how they feed them “now.”She questioned and complained about how they’re suppose to feed them long term through the Winter.

      For the short term one would think J&D had quite a bit of provisions on the road.They did have to feed that army for the long voyage from Dragonstone.One might suggest they arrived with enough remaining for a little while.

      Sansa’s vision is still apparently entirely on normal living and simply having enough food until Winter is over.She and others have been continually told it’s not the time to squabble about (this) and (that), yet it seems to fall on deaf ears.She doesn’t appear to be focused on or even believing that Death is marching at them and just days away!!

      If everyone is killed she doesn’t need to feed “the greatest army the world has ever seen.”If they somehow win it will still be with massive losses.Most of the remaining will leave for home or to fight elsewhere.If they have to retreat somewhere they won’t be hauling wagons of food.In any scenario Winterfell is not going to be hosting thousands of people for months and months.That is why people are saying her focus on that is stupid in their situation.

      Maybe she is expecting the walls of Winterfell to hold. Blackfish told Jaime that he and his army had food to stay inside Riverrun for 2 years. And I think Mace held up a Storm lands castle for a year. Food is a key part of the logistics of war in their world. Bronn and Tyrion had food conversation when Stannis was coming to KL. Sansa &Jon are moving the population inside Winterfell for protection. It may have been a better plan to move all civilians south.

      It is unclear who is leading the battle planning. Jon maybe? Anyway, we have a clear sense that everyone thinks they have some time. Jon seems to have a bit of time for standing outside under a tree, standing in the crypts etc. Jon and Daenerys had time for a bit of joyriding so it is not like everyone is 100% focused on war planning. Who is in charge? Jon is Warden so it must be him.

      One of the most interesting features is the lack of response by Jon and Daenerys to the news that NK has a dragon. This means aerial bombardment. They did not even discuss it when they were joy riding together. Jon is a military leader – once he had his first ride you would expect him to see the implications for the war even if he did not realise it before. Anyway, now he can go up to fight NK in the air.

        Quote  Reply

    135. Mango: Several characters have earned their way in this D&D GOT story:

      These are all incomparable for one huge reason: each of these examples involves the creation of some new title. Once the title is created, then the rules of primogeniture apply.

      Mango: Rights from their Daddies that are arguably not their rights at all.

      Primogeniture says differently: and, as is made clear many, many (many!) times in the telling of this story, honorable people follow primogeniture. That’s the one thing that is critical for understanding these characters: Sansa, Daenerys, etc., basically would be acting immorally if they failed to pursue their claims. A person who does not do everything and anything to uphold his/her family’s position is a person without honor.

        Quote  Reply

    136. Patrick Sponaugle: Stannis did offer that to Renly, but it really wasn’t much of an offer versus what Renly thought was right in his grasp, a crown. (Renly should have taken that deal, of course.)

      In retrospect, yes. But, on the other hand: would there have been anything left to inherit if Stannis had been king? He would have been pretty awful!

        Quote  Reply

    137. Mango,

      For the time being they do/did appear to think they have a bit of time left to prepare, which I believe they’re having the people do even if they themselves are wandering around. Obviously their time is cut shorter than expected. I guess they have to hear it from Tormund because Branmotron is too busy staring or something.

      I wouldn’t think Jon, Daenerys or any of the few that have seen the aotd think they’re going to be able to hold up and repel a siege for a long time like is possible against a living army. The living rest, regroup, resupply while the dead just keep coming and coming. I also don’t know that they can cram their entire army inside Winterfell and will have to have some forces face them in the field. That appears to be happening if we take anything away from the trailer and them lining up outside. Now knowing they’ll be facing an aerial threat is even worse. To make repelling a siege against the WW even more difficult, if they don’t take care of anyone that does die inside the walls immediately then they’ve already been infiltrated by wights…

      No, this is a battle, a war of constant fighting. They are either successful or not rather quickly.

        Quote  Reply

    138. Wimsey: These are all incomparable for one huge reason: each of these examples involves the creation of some new title.Once the title is created, then the rules of primogeniture apply.

      Primogeniture says differently: and, as is made clear many, many (many!) times in the telling of this story, honorable people follow primogeniture.That’s the one thing that is critical for understanding these characters: Sansa, Daenerys, etc., basically would be acting immorally if they failed to pursue their claims.A person who does not do everything and anything to uphold his/her family’s position is a person without honor.

      Listen, you pointed out that no-one earned their way in the story. I simply point out that this is not correct.

      I have not asserted that these titles will not be inherited from now on. Just that they were earned in the story.

      Chattering about primogeniture does not change that you were incorrect.

        Quote  Reply

    139. Clob,

      Yes, I agree.

      I go back to my question – who is in charge of the planning?

      Yes, it seems that civilians will be inside and army outside the wall. The plan seems to be that they are expecting a long fight. Or at least a long period AFTER the fight when the population will need to be fed out of Winterfell food stores. This makes sense I suppose – no fields will be planted for a while.

        Quote  Reply

    140. RG:
      Ginevra,

      Jon would be fantastic. I’m all for Jon and always have been. Honestly, only Davos comes close to having his wisdom and compassion and desire to unify. But there’s a part of me that thinks about his magical resurrection, his tendency for self-sacrifice etc and I’m worried about whether or not he’ll get there. (Now I’m depressed again)

      I’m with you. I prepared my heart the past almost 2 years for THIS very possible self-sacrifice/death. I think I’m ready. Or maybe not. Oh well…

        Quote  Reply

    141. Mango,

      Good question. I… guess it’s AeJon..? I suppose planning is what they’re doing in the promo pictures and they’ll all be involved. Luckily Jorah now has some experience with the aotd so he shouldn’t be thinking this will be a normal fight to plan.

      Jon, Tormund and Edd have some experience or were at least witness to how ineffective walls can be at Hardhome. Of course those were wood, but the wight were able to eventually go over and under as well as through. They also threw themselves off a cliff to get in. Viserion could simply drop clawfulls of them inside Winterfell while flying over. 😲

      It will be interesting to see what they come up with that they think will be most effective. It seems to me that they HAVE to deal with Viserion immediately with Drogon and Rhaegal. 😦

        Quote  Reply

    142. Winterkat:
      And frankly I think the fandom would riot if he ended up on the throne, no matter how awful the circumstances.

      Most polls still show Jon as the one most people want to end up on the throne, followed by Dany. I don’t think this (Jon on the throne) will happen because I just can’t imagine GRRM doing the The Return of the King kind of ending for his series, where a hero finally embraces his destiny as the rightful heir and claims the kingship. My guess is he would write a very different outcome.

        Quote  Reply

    143. Winterkat:
      Chilli,

      Hmmm, maybe not so bad if they are together?
      I didn’t follow the whole PitC series…weren’t he and Keira Knightly’s character a couple? Was it a sad ending…like he was kind of a martyr?

      src=”https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/72×72/1f615.png” scale=”0″>

      It was what some may call “bittersweet ending”. Oh, wait…

      Anyway, Will did make a sacrifice. Elizabeth stayed on the land and Will could only visit her once every 10 years, I believe. They had a son, who, in the last (fifth?) movie, went on a quest to break all the magic in the world so his father (Will) could break free from the curse and be able to finally go home.

        Quote  Reply

    144. COULD YOU GUYS NOT BRING UP JORY?!?!?!?!

      *Kermit arm flail*

      Every time I manage to repress the memory of my beloved Jory’s mur-diddly-urder, there it is again, like a knife to the eye. Uh, the heart.

      *sobs hysterically*

        Quote  Reply

    145. I don’t know why people think jon would make a good king, he is shown repeatedly to be stubborn and he never listens or cares about advice that contradicts his hero complex. he is also blind to the fact that people aren’t all perfectly Honorable like he is and he is incapable of lying. All of this got him killed, and he actually learned nothing from it. None of the of the others got themselves killed, especially after failing to rule 50 men, and for that they all would make better Kings/Queens than Jon, the show is actually contradicting itself by rewarding Jon for his stupidity when it made it a point to punish characters that are similar to Jon (Ned, Robb) in the earlier seasons. Jon will be a similar king to Robert, he’s a great sword fighter but leading isn’t the same as winning wars, besides Jon is incapable of change since his character has been stagnant and he had no character development since season 4. He only gains new titles that he rarely ever deserves and is always revealed to be special, but he never grows, funnily enough, he has been repeating that “the dead are coming” speech for 4 seasons now and it’s gotten quite tedious to listen to kit trying to come up with new ways to say the same thing over and over again…

        Quote  Reply

    146. Nariman,

      He’s very honourable and wants the best for everyone. If he learns to listen to his advisors and learns to communicate better, he will be a great king.
      The one reason why I don’t think he will become king is because it’s too much Aragorn/Lord of the Rings.

        Quote  Reply

    147. cos alpha:
      I wonder why people think, Sansa is stupid to question, how they shall feed an army of thousands and thousands and two dragons, when the AotD comes right ahead the door.
      Feeding people, especially soldiers in action is a very important thing! Men must eat to be strong and brave enough to fight. No food, no courage.
      In war food is as existencial as weapons, every army has pursers.
      People cry, how stupid it was to burn the loot train, same people cry, how stupid and arrogant Sansa is to insist, how important enough food is.
      Sansa is pragmatic – and it’s true: pragmatic people are not charismatic -, someone must have the feet on the ground, while others make plans. And she is forward-looking:there is a time after the battle, what, if the breathing win? One shouldn’t rule this thought out.
      In my eyes her arguing is completely reasonable.

      Because the AOTD are days away and they have enough food in the meantime to last. She’s thinking long-term, which in itself is a highly intelligent thing to do, but the way she rudely takes the opportunity to be snide and try to make the rescuing commanders feel unwelcome is not intelligent in the slightest. Much more intelligent would be to wait till the battle is done, and if Winterfell has managed to hold off the threat, see how many troops remain, what the food stores are and then, cooperatively and civilly, arrange for more food to be imported (Dany is still queen of Mereen, she has access to food from Dragons Bay). The way she brings it up is to make a point, a petty one, in a way that undermines Jon, the new Warden of the North and the new Queen because she doesn’t like said queen and Jon’s decision. It has nothing to do with being prudent or clever.

        Quote  Reply

    148. Winterkat,

      Yes I know I read your answer, you only know a few words Dutch 😉

      But the ship in POTC is called the Flying Dutchman, it was a sentence used in the movie about Will Turner. It’s was the only way to ‘save’ his life, to make him captain of the Flying Dutchman.

      I learned that if you stab the heart, yours must take its place. And you will sail the seas for eternity. The Dutchman must have a captain.

      It just reminded me of the Night King and Jon who were also stabbed in the heart. I wouldn’t be surprised if the ending of GOT is similar.

        Quote  Reply

    149. And can we please ban the words ‘fan service’??? I hate it even more than the word ‘bittersweet’. It’s not because something nice or expected happens, it’s “fan service”.
      Jon was always meant to ride Rhaegal in the books. They just wanted to give him and Dany a nice time and learn to ride the dragon before everything goes wrong.
      And Gendry, was always meant to return, D&D told Joe Dempsie he would return at some point, before he became so popular. Gendry and Arya were also flirting in the books.
      Tormund and Brienne wasn’t planned, maybe that was fan service, but it was sooo funny that I’m glad they added it. We’ll be mourning enough the next episodes with probably so many favourite characters dying. I’m glad there are some funny moments too.

        Quote  Reply

    150. Maybe off topic, but reading this post and the interesting comments made me think again about political and personal problems: aren’t we all just wondering to what extent each character is or is not like their fathers ? And fearing they are so much alike they’ll follow their fate?
      1) Burn-them-all Dany of course (aren’t we repeatedly told “she’s not (like) her father” but still not sure we must trust it?);
      2) Samsa :Catelyn’s (Tully) “family first” stance, to the point she might forget the larger picture, do stupid things like starting a fight at the wrong moment and have most her family killed;
      3) Arya : “family vengeance first” (Lady Stoneheart show adaptation); so far , she seems to have grown past this, and to try a Tully/Stark synthesis (family to survive winter)
      4) Jon : Father 1: so honorable but slow minded when it comes to power, cost him his life/felt he knew the only honorable way, couldn’t listen to counsellors, cost him his life / couldn’t lie, cost him his life (oh wait, he *did* lie!) ; Father 2: impulsive “f**k all this messy world and obligations, let’s elope for love for a thousand years” — ooops, for a short time, cost them their lives but left a wonderful baby. Not an easy legacy to synthetize, like some honorable impulsiveness, to f**k or not to f**k duty (will cost his live, anyway)
      5) Lannisters. Not clear this one was about legacy and family name or choosing the winner’s camp or making sure the sheep fear the lion. Each sibling seems to select one different aspect a bit more over the others: Cersei power and fear(and family name?), Tyrion choosing the winning side (or will it be family by doing some Red Wedding kind of treason?), Jamie the family name either (but is it putting princes in his sister’s belly or securing the family name for centuries in some chivalry song?)
      Wouldn’t we wish all these cyclic ( wheel-like?) stories to get some breaking…? Can such wheels be broken ? Do such wheels need to be broken so that the power wheel can ? Season 8 is on its way, and we still wonder.

        Quote  Reply

    151. Nariman:
      I don’t know why people think jon would make a good king, he is shown repeatedly to be stubborn and he never listens or cares about advice that contradicts his hero complex. he is also blind to the fact that people aren’t all perfectly Honorable like he is and he is incapable of lying. All of this got him killed, and he actually learned nothing from it. None of the of the others got themselves killed, especially after failing to rule 50 men, and for that they all would make better Kings/Queens than Jon, the show is actually contradicting itself by rewarding Jon for his stupidity when it made it a point to punish characters that are similar to Jon (Ned, Robb) in the earlier seasons. Jon will be a similar king to Robert, he’s a greatsword fighter but leading isn’t the same as winning wars, besides Jon is incapable of change since his character has been stagnant and he had no character development since season 4. He only gains new titles that he rarely ever deserves and is always revealed to be special, but he never grows, funnily enough, he has been repeating that “the dead are coming” speech for 4 seasons now and it’s gottenquite tedious to listen to kit trying to come up with new ways to saythe same thing over and over again…

      Jon’s biggest weakness is that he is single-minded in his mission: to rally the biggest army of living people (no matter where they come from) to fight back the biggest threat the world has ever seen. He doesn’t factor in that others don’t understand how terrible this threat is and he fails in communicating (at least on screen) the dangers that are coming for them all. That doesn’t mean that he will be a poor king as once the threat is neutralised, he will no longer have this big weakness in his character. This single-mindedness is understandable though – if you had seen what he has seen, would you not be desperately trying to get people to listen, to defend themselves, to ignore their petty squabbles over titles and focus on the real enemy. Your phrasing is peculiar, I’m going to assume you dislike Kit as an actor, because I’m sure you realise he isn’t just ad-libbing on the spot about the AOTD?

      Times Jon has listened to advice:
      – Asks Sansa what he should do differently in his battle with Ramsay (he doesn’t ignore her answer, because there is nothing to ignore, it’s a non-answer)
      – Seeks Aemon’s advice about his wildling plan and follows his advice. Aemon tells him he must do what he feels is right even though it means alienating the nights watch. So he follows that advice.
      – He listens to Tyrion’s advice when he suggests Jon should ask for something reasonable instead of giving up and going home from Dragonstone.
      – In season 1, he follows Tyrion’s indirect advice about the fact that he needs to reign in his superiority complex in order to make friends when he arrives at CB
      – He listens to Tormund during their walk Beyond the Wall about how thousands of Mance’s people died for his pride and takes this into consideration.

      There are plenty of examples of Jon being counselled and him following advice and there are also examples of him disregarding advice because in the end, he knows what’s coming for them and those giving advice do not. When Sansa and Lyanna question him for going South, he knows the truth: they need allies, he is the one who needs to go. Their advice may make sense from the perspective of people who don’t know what’s coming for them, but Jon knows differently. What he did was the right thing to do. What he has returned with may very well save the day; without them, they would have been massacred.

      So you are saying that Jon has had no character development since the battle for the wall with the wildlings? Are we watching the same show? His honour and sense of duty haven’t changed no, as these are key tenants of his character, but if you can’t see the other ways he has changed then I don’t think my listing them are going to convince you. It feels like you are letting your dislike for his character (which is fair enough) cloud your view somewhat.

      If Jon were to become king, which is highly doubtful, he would be a good one. He is honourable and inspires devotion (which is why he has earned his titles), he is just and knows when to draw the line with doubters and insubordinators and do so with a firm hand (Slynt, the shabby murder gang), he also knows how to show mercy, he seeks and listens to advice (as evidence by my above list), he genuinely cares about all people, not just his people and he tries to be true to his word and keep his oaths – important that a leader has this quality to inspire the same quality in those he/she leads.

      He does have a lot to learn and I don’t think he is a perfect leader – his biggest faults being his impulsiveness and his lack of effective communication – but once the army of the dead are dealt with, he has shown an ability to learn and change, so with the correct council, he could overcome these.

      Anyway, essay over. None of this is at all relevant because it’s all but certain he will die because he just can’t stop himself from sacrificing himself. It’s a shame though.

        Quote  Reply

    152. Chilli:
      And can we please ban the words ‘fan service’??? I hate it even more than the word ‘bittersweet’. It’s not because something nice or expected happens, it’s “fan service”.
      Jon was always meant to ride Rhaegal in the books. They just wanted to give him and Dany a nice time and learn to ride the dragon before everything goes wrong.
      And Gendry, was always meant to return, D&D told Joe Dempsie he would return at some point, before he became so popular. Gendry and Arya were also flirting in the books.
      Tormund and Brienne wasn’t planned, maybe that was fan service, but it was sooo funny that I’m glad they added it. We’ll be mourning enough the next episodes with probably so many favourite characters dying. I’m glad there are some funny moments too.

      I hate the term too and I hate the term “fan fiction” when used as a derisive comment to D&D in equal measure. These terms are bandied around because what we see on screen matches up to what fans hope will happen. The reason the fans hope it will happen is because the groundwork has been laid on the show. So fans are guessing what’s going to happen based on careful storytelling and then when it ends up happening a smaller group of fans who ignored the foreshadowing/plot developments scream “fan service” and “fan fiction”. It boggles my mind.

        Quote  Reply

    153. Che,

      None of that really matters though since Jon already lost. He couldn’t rule 50 people and he got killed by 10 of them, if that doesn’t prove that he wouldn’t be a good ruler for you I don’t know what will. He just has a thick plot armor that defies even death and gets him out of trouble while other characters put in the same positions die and lose.
      I too believe Jon will die/ wont be king because d&d and the cast keep saying that the ending is unexpected and divisive and since most polls show that the fandom expects Jon will win and be on the throne I say that ending isn’t happening.
      I actually think Kit improved a lot especially in the premiere, however if i had to listen to another speech about the “Dead/great war is coming” I’ll lose my mind.

        Quote  Reply

    154. Nariman:
      Che,

      None of that really matters though since Jon already lost. He couldn’t rule 50 people and he got killed by 10 of them, if that doesn’t prove that he wouldn’t be a good ruler for you Idon’t know what will. He just has a thick plot armor that defies even death and gets him out of trouble while other characters put in the same positions die and lose.
      I too believe Jon will die/ wont be king because d&d and the cast keep saying that the ending is unexpected and divisive and since most polls show that the fandom expects Jon will win and be on the throne I say that ending isn’t happening.
      I actually think Kit improved a lot especially in the premiere, however if i had to listen to another speech about the “Dead/great war is coming” I’ll lose my mind.

      I disagree with your use of the term plot armour and don’t believe it is relevant here – Jon being revived or reborn is likely to play an important part of his arc in the books that they haven’t been able to or don’t wish to convey on the show. The fact that he dies and comes back is going to be hugely significant – otherwise, why do it? He certainly is shielded by plot armour many times throughout the story (as are other characters – Arya surviving multiple stab wounds to the belly, Sansa surviving jumping off a wall tens of meters high and not having a single injury etc.) but his dying and being resurrected are not the same as those instances. It has been massively downplayed so far in the show, but I doubt it will be in the books. I also feel there is going to be a twist for Jon regarding his resurrection later in the show, so for these reasons, it is a plot device crucial to the evolution of his character, not plot armour.

      Jon made mistakes in the night’s watch. He wasn’t a terribly efficient leader as he didn’t see the murder plot coming and failed to communicate with his men. I agree. However, regardless of the manner in which he comes back, he is not the same man or leader anymore, to say he is is disingenuous to his journey these past few years. All the main characters make mistakes that they learn from and grow. Sansa spent most of last season being conned by the man she said only a fool would trust. Yet by the end, she eventually realised what was going on and evolved. Should be condemn all the characters’ futures based on their past mistakes? Arya won’t be a very good fighter because the Waif used to beat her in their matches; Sansa can’t be clever because she didn’t see LF’s manipulating of her on time; Jaime can’t be honourable and just because he pushed Bran out a window etc. If you are going to forever judge Jon on who he was in season 5 and say that there is no hope for him as a ruler is to wilfully ignore seasons 6 and 7.

        Quote  Reply

    155. Interesting article but I genuinely don’t see a full resolution for the distrust towards Dany coming simply because there isn’t enough time. Sure if she fights against the Army of the Dead that will go a long way but by that point the truth will be out that she isn’t the queen anyway, so it’s unlikely to really matter.

      We know Sansa and Dany will have a verbal sparring session next episode in the library and it maybe a loose pact is made but I stress again this will likely be followed by Dany learning she’s not the queen and the Night King arriving so it counts for nothing.

        Quote  Reply

    156. Che: I disagree with your use of the term plot armour and don’t believe it is relevant here – Jon being revived or reborn is likely to play an important part of his arc in the books that they haven’t been able to or don’t wish to convey on the show.

      It already played an important role on the show; Jon was a brittle and tentative character throughout Series 6 until the Battle of the Bastards. What we got there was a Phoenix motif (which we also saw in Daenerys, Arya, Tyrion, Bran and Sansa; and which we’ve seen in lesser degrees in Theon & Jaime); the Jon that emerged at the very end was back to being the self-assured “I know this is right and therefore it is what I will do” character. (In terms of visual metaphors, I think that Jon crawling out of the pile of bodies was the compliment to Daenerys walking out of the burning temple.)
      However, it will always niggle at the back of his mind: doing the right thing will get you killed sometimes!

        Quote  Reply

    157. Nariman: I don’t know why people think jon would make a good king, he is shown repeatedly to be stubborn and he never listens or cares about advice that contradicts his hero complex.

      Jon would make a good king because he is a genuinely empathetic person. Would he be a perfect king? No. But he would generally err on the side of the downtrodden.

        Quote  Reply

    Jump to the Top

    Leave a Reply

    Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *