“Shall we begin?” – Daenerys Targaryen
With three words, the Mad King’s daughter Daenerys began her plan to reclaim the Iron Throne.
Her campaign in Westeros has been something that viewers of HBO’s Game of Thrones have been expecting ever since she emerged from her husband Drogo’s funeral pyre with three newborn dragons. For six seasons, she wandered around Essos as an exile, but as an exile growing in power. Along with her dragons, she acquired the stoic Unsullied infantry, spent some time getting first-hand experience in ruling, and secured the fervent loyalty of the saddled-for-battle Dothraki.
At the end of the sixth season, with her combined forces being borne west by ships from her Westerosi supporters (and a captured slaver fleet) it certainly appeared that Daenerys would be following in the steps of her ancestor Aegon the Conqueror:
- make landfall in Westeros with a committed army
- declare her claim
- welcome those willing to bend the knee
- introduce those who won’t submit to sufficient amounts of fire and blood
- profit!
It’s not a bad time to invade Westeros. King Robert Baratheon’s death and the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings has left the realm fractured, with the only person claiming overlordship of the Seven Kingdoms having low popularity and a dubious claim to the throne.
![ep610_001_02034719[1]](https://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/ep610_001_020347191.jpg)
Cersei: Well, I’m sitting on it. Seems reasonable to me.
Qyburn: Quite reasonable, your grace.
Despite Cersei’s low numbers in smallfolk polling, the Lannister lioness is the queen that Dany needs to beat if she wants to be taken seriously.
We can assume Cersei has the loyalty of the Kingdom of the West (it’s the Lannisters’ home turf after all), as well as control of the Crownlands that contains King’s Landing and extends east along Blackwater Bay. The Lannisters might not have the love of the people of the Riverlands but they control strategic assets throughout, and we can assume after Stannis Baratheon lost most of his forces at the battle of Blackwater, that the lords of the Stormlands agreed to bend the knee or were replaced with more Lannister-friendly lordlings. (Otherwise Stannis would have registered the Stormlands as an asset on the Iron Bank’s loan application forms.)
Neither queen has the support of the North, or (considering Lord Royce’s recently-stated opinion of both the Lannisters and the Targaryens) support from the Vale of Arryn. Both Cersei and Dany have a working relationship with their own respective Greyjoy from the Iron Islands.
Dany enjoys support from Olenna Tyrell of Highgarden and the presumed ruler of Dorne, Ellaria Sand, but this support is qualified at best. Neither of these women are all that invested in Daenerys successfully taking charge of the Seven Kingdoms. Their primary objective is the destruction of the Lannisters, Cersei in particular.
Their advice to Dany reflects their priorities: the young Targaryen should launch a full-on assault on King’s Landing. At once.
Daenerys would prefer not to live up to her reputation as the Mad King’s daughter (a rep she’d contributed to with collective punishment in Meereen and the occasional mass burning throughout Essos.) She has stated her reluctance to be the queen of ashes.
That language is evocative of the fairy-tale heroine Cinderella, so-named for being filthy from cleaning the ashy hearths. Dany’s situation is reminiscent of Cinderella’s: she has every right to go to the ball (or in this case, to exercise her claim to the throne) she’s all dressed for the occasion, but wicked people insist on being in her way.
Stannis: Renly would be the wicked step-sister in my version.
In Dany’s version though, the fairy godmother is urging Cinderella to burn down the palace. Rather than committing to that extreme, Daenerys plans to weaken Cersei’s power politically with limited military action. The initial plan (before Euron intervened) was to isolate Cersei in King’s Landing with a Dornish-launched siege, and to take possession of the Lannister symbolic seat of power: Casterly Rock.
Brooding at Dragonstone, hoping that the lords of Westeros will recognize her claim, Dany begins to resemble not so much Aegon the Conqueror but Stannis Baratheon. He also had few friends on the mainland, a bad reputation, and tried to play a more political game first.
Stannis: Good news, you clowns. I get to be your king now. You’re welcome.
Lords of Westeros: LOL no. You act like we’ve never met you, Stannis.
Any ravens that Dany sends will probably get a similar response.
Daenerys: Hi! Everyone should agree that I’m the queen. The next five ravens I send will have all of my titles, I didn’t want to bury the lede.
Lords of Westeros: LOL no. We knew your dad.
Daenerys: But I haven’t even launched an attack with my Dothraki or burned anyone yet!
Cersei: Please don’t ever stop talking.
The Stannis comparison is not too far off base. Like the teeth-grinding Baratheon’s ships, Dany’s naval forces designated for bringing troops to King’s Landing have not fared well. And she currently has Stannis’s religious advisor Melisandre on-site preaching the Lord of Light gospel. (Daenerys has previous experience with bonfires and human sacrifice.)
Dany isn’t quite in the desperate straits that Stannis found himself in after his great loss in trying to assault the capital. She still has a large army of specialized forces, including flying weapons of mass destruction. She couldn’t have obligated all of her ships to the Dornish ferrying operation or Grey Worm’s planned assault on Casterly Rock. If the lords of Westeros are not receptive to her claims, should she want to bring the Dothraki over to engage in wholesale chevauchée, she could.
But does she want to do that?
Whatever she does, she’ll need to do something soon. The Unsullied are probably willing to remain on guard and await further orders, indefinitely, but those dragons need to eat and her Dothraki probably don’t want to be staying in one place, on a relatively small island, for very long.
If Dany is ultimately unwilling to commit atrocities in the land she wants to rule, but still wants to assert her claim as monarch of the Seven Kingdoms, she does have an option. Like Stannis Baratheon before her, she can go north.
Jon Snow has already opened the door to the possibility of the Targaryen army, and particularly the Targaryen dragons, being employed to assist the northmen in the war to come against the wights and the White Walkers. Melisandre saw in her flames a vision of a great war in the snow and ice, this vision guided Stannis north to the Wall in time to foil a massive invasion of wildlings. All things considered, it might have been better had Stannis not blunted this migration of living, breathing Free Folk, since it’s quite probable that every wildling unable to make it safely past the Wall will do so as a thrall to the Night’s King.
Thanks, Stannis.
Stannis: You’re welcome. But “your grace” is the appropriate address. I’ll not remind you again.
It was a big deal when Stannis opted to forgo pursuing the throne and react to the realm’s defense. It’s not out-of-bounds to imagine Daenerys having to make a similar choice, if things go badly for her in the south. And things go badly for the realm in the north.
I recommend that she plans to dress warmly.
Dany’s thinking, “Shit, did I leave the oven door open?” in that picture.
But… but…. Aegon didn’t have trusted and wise advisors like Tyrion Lannister and Varys, and Westerosi allies with their own agenda, all making up his Small Council! I mean: what is the first piece of strategy that she and her council employed? Divide up her huge amassed forces that sailed from Essos! As if the Dornish army couldn’t march across land to King’s Landing, the same as was expected of the Tyrell army.
The comparison to Stannis is both apt and not-so-apt. Daenerys aka MK’sD (Mad King’s Daughter) is definitely starting to follow the path that Stannis took, but the weird thing is, she had so much more resources she started with than Stannis, resources that she is slowly squandering away. My prediction is: MK’sD will continue squandering away all of her resources till almost the end of the series when she is practically left with nothing, while Cersei will be armed in thicker and thicker plot armor and sit cosily in her Red Keep till the roof caves in and snow falls inside!! 😀
Violator,
Dany: Did I remember to turn off the oven back in Meereen? *shrug* Daario will be able to handle it.
Daario: WHY IS THE GREAT PYRAMID ON FIRE?
When it says “all dressed up” , makes me think of 7 years of costuming. D&D sure show favor to ‘muted’ color, it’s sometimes hard to tell but it may be GRRM’s preference too, tho it’s more changeable on the page.
When Michele Clapton ran the first designs by D&D must have favored this. On the other hand the most striking thing about costuming is attention to detail. Even thing has a ‘density’ to it so that when photographed in the right light there is a ‘medieval cast’ to it or in Essos there is the Alma Tadema (and his like) look.
I remember film director Richard Lester researching fabric dyeing for the period of his 70’s Musketeers movies. Even the high born rarely had bright colors. Some of the same thinking here.
Kay,
I completely agree that Stannis would have been delighted with the forces Dany has at her disposal. Thanks for the great comment. I’m fond of your nickname for Dany, the MK’sD.
She should destroyy lannisters. This make me nervous Why since season 1 lannisters has still massive army? from where? all battles they won but still has many soldiers. Its innormal. Second..sorry but Dany not should go to North. She should destroy Cercei first and fly with 3 dragons to Pyke destroy Euron fleet.
Dont listen stupid and boring Jon Snow. She bring you lost. Dont help north. Fight with White walkers if they will be at KL . North is not important.
“And she currently has Stannis’s religious advisor Melisandre on-site preaching the Lord of Light gospel.”
————
I wonder if she will hear of Thoros and his Merry Men, and their slightly different view of the LoL gospel. (And of course wonder if there’s a third character who has a “role to play”).
All hail Sandor Clegane, the Warrior of Light!
Boojam,
Thanks for mentioning the color palette used on the show. I’ve heard people contrast the show’s pseudo-medieval reality with our own medieval history, particularly how people tried for bright, clashing colors all the time.
But from our modern eye, we’d go “what the hell” if we saw something like that. I know the books describe a more colorful setting (like Daario’s beard) – but it’s probably best that the show downplayed that.
Thanks for the informative comment!
dragon,
I hear what you’re saying. But… boring Jon Snow? You wound me, dragon. You wound me. (Okay, that’s probably fair.)
Has anyone mentioned the significance of Melisandre standing in between Dany and her throne in that scene? Does the prophecy mean she won’t rule? Is it a hint?
Ten Bears,
I so want Sandor Clegane to be a dragon-rider.
The Hound: The only place I feel safe from its damned fire is riding on its gods-damned back.
Dany’s strength is her greatest weakness. She is like USA. US has the nuclear bombs and they can theoretically win in every war, but they can’t use that weapon every time they want.
Cersei doesn’t care for the people and she is using Dany’s compassion to buy some time. But at end she can’t win in this war. The only thing that can stop Dany are the WW.
“Daenerys: Hi! Everyone should agree that I’m the queen. The next five ravens I send will have all of my titles, I didn’t want to bury the lede.”
I think the thing I may be looking forward to most when Jon and Dany meet is when Missandei recites ALL of Dany’s titles, hopefully with one or two new ones added! Because you know that’s happening right? It will take all of 10-15 seconds but I predict that some people will overreact as usual like it took up half the episode.
Emilyred,
I’m more intrigued by the prospect of Mel’s presence at Dragonstone if and when Jon (and Davos) disembark. After Mel talked up Jon Snow and evoked that comment from Dany (~ “sounds like quite a man”), how will Dany react when Jon or Davos demand to know “What the f*ck is this child-burner doing here? Planning on roasting any princesses ? Count us out. “
Lord of Coffee,
*Dany recites her titles*
Dany: And you are?
Jon: Uh, Jon.
Dany: Anything else?
Jon: I could probably make some stuff up, but I’m kind of on a schedule…
I hear what you’re saying. I like pointing out Dany and her growing list, but it’s never bothered me to hear her state them.
Lol! I wasn’t really calling you out, just using your comment to make a point about how some people here and on twitter always overreact to it.
For example, I remember someone commented here a few weeks ago that they almost fell asleep every time her titles were listed because it took so long. I mean, come on! It’s supposed to exemplify Dany’s arrogance and that irritates people, but it’s who she is like it or not. And it simply doesn’t take that much time!
I would also love it if Davos announced Jon with some improvised titles of his own, but I don’t expect that to happen unfortunately.
I think Dany’s arrival has actually helped Cersei at least for the time being. It’s allowed her to basically say to the Lords “hey, you may think I’m evil and hate me for what I’ve done but that Targaryen is way worse than me”.
Patrick Sponaugle,
I’ve always liked what the Wildlings called Jon.
“King Crow Jon Snow”
Simple. Poetic.
Lord of Coffee,
Oh, no worries! I wasn’t feeling called out. It would be pretty funny to hear Davos, upon hearing Dany’s titles, have to improv something in classic Davos style.
“Jon Snow, King in the North. Uh. Doer of things and stuff. Bastard puncher. Weirdly smells nice.”
Interesting observation. I don’t know if Mel’s positioning is significant but I thought it was odd. And while timing is everything, why would Dany receive a visitor while not seated on her throne?
I’m also curious about Varys’ promise that he would not give her blind allegiance. Does he eventually turn his loyalty to Jon? I am becoming more convinced that Dany’s eventual fate will not sit her on the Iron Throne.
It’s Daenerys’ current predicament that makes me worried about how she’ll approach negotiations with Jon.
With Yara captured and the Iron Fleet destroyed she has effectively lost her stake in the Iron Islands.
With Ellaria captured, we can’t be sure whether Dorne will continue to support her.
And although she may not be aware of this just yet, with Randyll Tarly likely to side with the Lannisters, The Reach could be her next piece knocked off the board.
This situation could go either way. It may put her on the back foot, willing to accept any deal that will bring The North and The Vale into the fold.
Or, with Olenna’s words about being a dragon ringing in her ears, it might prompt her to abandon the softly-softly approach that Tyrion has been advocating and play hardball with Jon.
I’m genuinely worried about the prospect of Jon bending the knee and what repercussions it would have for his character and for The North. From a viewer’s perspective, I would never be able to watch the King in the North scene again, knowing that that triumphant moment unravelled just a few episodes later.
I’m hoping that they’ll be able to reach a compromise that doesn’t diminish either of their characters and that Jon will have/use an ace up his sleeve.
Unlike Stannis, like Jorah said S2 “she has a kind heart”. Dany will not be able to resist becoming a savior when called. She faces a dilemma here – between saving the people of the North from certain destruction by the WW or saving the people of the South from the crippling despotism of Cerseis’ Rule.
In many ways, it makes sense to first unite the south – then address the greater threat in the North. But I can see an argument for the reverse, that if she rescues the North, she will win their loyalty… though maybe not since the north will only do what Jon says – can Dany trust a man she just met to follow through on his promises? It’s a risky move as the fight in the north could decimate her people.
Dany may choose a divided strategy – send some of her forces and Dragonglads to the wall – she has no need for it – and promise to fly north on Drogon when called. In return the North should contribute some forces to overthrow Cersei in the Short term.
I’m really looking forward to this meeting of the MK’s daughter and the MK’s grandson. Madness all around! 😀 Plus if Davos doesn’t once refer to her as the MK’s daughter, I’ll be quite disappointed.
Uniting the south and eliminating the Mad Monarch who turned a sept full of people to ashes, would indeed be more sensible – at least I personally believe so. But the MK’s daughter’s advisors are all Westerosi now, and they don’t really like any harm coming to their Westerosi nobility. Tyrion’s advice in Meereen – torching an entire ship full of people in Slaver’s Bay and beheading two nobles was all OK, because they were Essosi and it doesn’t really matter.
Also, in the show, Cersei needs to stay put and be a completely unrealistic character, till the final moments of the series. I mean: Tarly and the other Lords didn’t once mention the blowing up of the Sept? The people of King’s Landing have forgotten too how many commoners died just a few weeks ago? 😉 At the moment, I am starting to think it’s a good idea really that the series will be finished in 11 more episodes. Otherwise there will be more unrealistic ways to keep Cersei around and the same politicking in KL going on.
The prophecy refers to a prince or a princess. Not a King or a Queen. I don’t think it’s a hint to who will be King or Queen, if anyone. 🙂 I also find it curious that a few words in High Valyrian are genderless. I wonder if this is important, especially with respect to Westerosi primogeniture rules. I wonder how much male primogeniture the Valyrians themselves pursued.
Queenofthrones,
I think the implications here are that even Dany’s forces combined with Jon’s are not enough to defeat the NK’s army. The speech from Jon, that was part of the entire season’s trailer says basically, “we all have to do this together”. I think only Cersei will ultimately care about the Iron Throne and by then, she’ll have no one on her side including Jaime. Fundamentally, this is a story of what can be accomplished when everyone stops playing the game and understands the real issue(s).
Tyrion’s master plan is falling apart rapidly, whereas Jaime’s advice to Cersei this season has all been spot on. Dany definitely should have gone for fire and blood. For one thing, she only has three dragons if she uses them all in the same place at the same time, and even then there is no guarantee that they will work together. Otherwise the other dragons are useless until and unless she can get two other dragon riders who are loyal to her. Good luck with that.
Dany’s ultimate fate was spelled out clearly in S2 with her HOTU vision. She will never sit the Iron Throne. Her path lies in the North.
Three episodes in and there has been no air force recon, no effort to “be a dragon.” Ugh. Foolish advice? The first part of their “brilliant” campaign was thwarted with ease by a better naval warrior and by the ignorance and libido of the naive ironborn commander. Hence, their Dornish support is probably compromised (Cersei now has 2 hostages). Ugh. Great advisors? Hah! We can only assume that the mighty Dothraki have been playing “Red Rover, Red Rover” somewhere in Blackwater Bay as their “leader” gets her act together (which should have been done en route!). And the next step of the brilliant strategy is to maximally divide the forces onto opposite sides of the continent. Ugh. Military strategy per a screenwriter’s Starbucks-infused Medieval Land Fun-Time World dramatic inclinations.
Since there is such overt initial force distribution, I wonder if the Casterly Rock attack plan (by Tyrion) is driven by an ulterior motive?
Now that Dorne’s leader has been captured, my biggest fear is that all of episode four will be devoted to showing how the Dornish are dealing with their new circumstances. And it will be ninety minutes!
😉
They made Tyrion an idiot. Oh you can’t attack King’s Landing because you’ll make the people angry. Yeah, because you know, the people appear so happy with Cersei and would hate to see her removed. Instead we’ll lay siege to the city and starve Cersei and her troops. Oh, what a great idea guys. Hey, remember, we can’t attack because the people would hate you if you burned everything with dragonfire, but killing everyone there by starving them…far superior way to get them to your side.
Any particular reason Dany and Tyrion didn’t just send Ellaria and Yara to Dorne to pick up the troops in the first place? They couldn’t have decided this strategy prior to leaving Meereen? No, instead they sail into Dragonstone to learn thanks, please turn around and sail back to pick them up…then turn around again and head back to King’s Landing. So let’s pass King’s Landing 3 separate times before even doing anything to it. Of course we know the reason is so we can have forced drama with Euron attacking them..
It is only going to get worse I fear.
Kay,
Ive wondered this. In two episodes, I don’t think its been mentioned at all. But I’d imagine most people in KL if not the whole kingdom knew someone who was killed and might prefer another person to lead. Then again there is something to be said for the dragon that you know versus the dragon that you don’t…
ash,
He did. “I’ve heard what she does to those who defy her.”
That’s why I predict that (on tomorrow’s episode?) Tyrion is going to swig a few flagons of Dornish wine, put on a protective cup, and take one of the smaller dragons out for a spin. He has no choice, though the cup is optional. 😉
mariamb,
I also noticed that Mel’s positionng was weird to say the least and I also think that it’s a foreshadowing that Dany will never sit on the throne. But probably that’s for the better. You could see that she was becomming increasingly frustrated and irritated: she said that Dragonstone didn’t feel like home, she attacked Varys (had to vent her gall on someone I guess), then she got quite annoyed when Mel said that there was someone else for the role of the PTWP which resulted in her order to summon Jon bend the knee though Tyrion said that he could be a valuable ally. That was exactly the opposite to how she treated with Yara and indicated that she was in a really bad mood. But IMO that’s because she feels that her conquest of Westeros has no higher purpose (apart from satisfying ceratain vengeance demands), and she is struggling to find that higher purpose, because she has a sense of justice and a tender heart and she wants to leave the world better than she found it. However, the problem is that she thinks that she wants and needs the Iron Throne, when in reality she simply wants some place she could call home and some people she could call family. So, I sould say it would be better for her if something forces her to give up that idee fixe about the Iron Throne: that would alow her to acknowledge her sublimated dreams and maybe do something to make them come true.
And one more interesting thing: I noticed that when Varys was speaking against the blid allegence, the camera turned to Missandey and Grey Worm. IMO, that impled that Varys was becomming a role model for them too. So, it really looks like Dany is going to have a major disagreement with her closest followers.
I
orange,
Tyrion’s plan is actually pretty reasonable.
Daenerys attempting to blitzkrieg the Seven Kingdoms would just lead to deaths and destruction that she wanted to avoid and would potentially rally the Westerosi against her.
We heard in Arya’s scene with Hot Pie two traders saying that “Cersei’s just trying to frighten us” with tales of Daenerys’ dragons. And Cersei appealed for support from the Lords of The Reach by warning them of the destruction Daenerys’ forces would wreak on their kingdom.
Set the dragons loose and people like that might rally to Cersei’s side, as might more Lords looking towards the once hated, illegitimate queen for protection.
Initially isolating King’s Landing and Casterly Rock limits the potential for the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to rise up and rally to the Lannisters’ side in fear for their own safety.
I agree that it would’ve made more sense if they’d had a plan to immediately put into action upon arriving in Westeros. At least the initial stages of one, anyway. That was a poor choice by the producers. They still could’ve had Daenerys encounter similar setbacks without her plans looking amateurish and disorganised.
But the thing is, they need Daenerys to encounter setbacks otherwise there’s no drama. It’s not forced. It’s essential. And it may have longer-term consequences, such as forcing her to compromise her principles, driving a wedge between her and her advisers and turning her into more of a tyrant.
Lord of Coffee,
Agreed. Cersei will be putting as much of a negative spin as she can on Daenerys’ return.
Kay,
If it’s a “prince or princess” and NOT a king or a queen, then who are the candidates ? All of the Baratheon/Lannister princes and princesses are gone. Einstein Ellaria snuffed out all of Dorne’s princes (and Princess Myrcella).
With eleven episodes left, I refuse to believe some yet-to-be conceived embryo will be the prophecied princess or prince.
That leaves two (known) princess candidates: Sansa and Arya.
FWIW, I believe Jon is the PWWP.
Hodors Bastard,
Well, two episodes in…
Kay,
Why is blowing up the Sept to kill political enemies any diffrent than what Tywin did with House Reyne or with RW? And he was never considered mad.
Hodors Bastard,
Just curious: What’s the benefit of capturing Casterly Rock? Symbolic, maybe..but what else?
orange,
They didn’t plan that in Meereen because there wasn’t time for that last season and it wouldn’t make much sense to have that scene there, because it had nothing to do with S6’s plot.
And in original leaks scene at Dragonstone didn’t exist. It was added later, because it would be really shame not to have all Dany’s allies in one scene. That was the only oportunity.
Kay,
IMO you should do a bit of research on the real world history. Sad as it is, but terror and tyrany can be highly efficient. For instance, crashing Tiananmen Square protest with tanks in 1989 was even more gruesom than blowing up the Sept, but the Communists still hold power in Chinas a result.
Ten Bears,
I think that Tyrion doesn’t know that they don’t have gold there any more.
Inga,
Yes, people just revolting when ruler does something bad is not reality in many cases. Maybe she is happy enough to live in normal state where such expectations are normal, but trust me, that’s not the case in majority of the world.
It’s a Targaryen prophecy, so the candidates, in my mind, are Jon, son of Prince Rhaeghar and Daenerys, daughter of King Aerys.
You are absolutely right! Tywin was quite sane, and is in fact considered to be a consummate politician. Cersei is also not mad, just politically savvy! But when it comes to the Mad King’s daughter, her having burnt and crucified slaveowners in Essos, very clearly shows she is definitely on her way to madness! 😀
Word. I enjoyed how AltShiftX emphasized that nonsense as well. They must have had fun playing cyvasse and tiddlywinks en route. The various strategic missteps thus far with this “campaign” are almost unbearable.
Once we see the dragon shadow over KL (as envisioned by Bran), that’s when the recon and intrigue begins… Btw, I enjoyed your Stannis reference. The curse of the brooding Stannis and shadow baby strategy has overtaken the storyline! 🙂
(fingers crossed for D&D to whip things into shape soon)
Ah… I would, but alas, just no time at all! Though there have been an instance or two of people simply revolting when the last straw hits the camel’s back! 😀 So it’s not written in stone that terror and tyranny always has the same outcome. Case in point: this is the 50th anniversary of riots in my city, riots from which this city has still not recovered!
Kay,
I don’t understad what you are trying to say. But seeing Cersei as the lesser evil is something that makes sense. Ofc, majority of Westeros is againat her, but some lords do see Dany as the worst option. And I don’t see anything unrealistic about that.
Good question. That’s the reason why I wonder about Tyrion’s motives. Does he eventually want to rule CR? Does he assume it will be easy to take, given his knowledge, and then march east toward KL? Or does he want to separate Jaime and Cersei? I assume that Jaime will ride for CR when he gets word of the plan (via the captured women or ravens). Regardless, I am highly skeptical of his ulterior motives by spreading Dany’s forces so thin. It ain’t gonna be pretty, imho.
mau,
We can have different opinions, yes? You see it as realistic that some lords, who have never had a queen, are ok with Cersei, who just blew up a whole bunch of people; people, who were not at war with the realm. But they fear the daughter of a King who was the last of a dynasty that ruled the land for 300 years. I see it as unrealistic that no one is even mentioning the Sept blow-up, or the ravages in Westeros as far as the common people are concerned. That’s OK. We see events unfolding differently. I see it as benign backwards to keep Cersei relevant.
I too am extremely concerned about Tyrion’s motives! That came as a shock to me, lol, because he is my favorite human character!
There is a theory , from a long long time ago, that Dany would have to stop her conquest of Westros and save it. That would be a harder ordeal than conquering it. She would succeed. Then since she grew up in Essos change her mind about Westerns. It was also put forward that she was the odd-person-out Valyrian because she was an abolitionist. The only way to complete that job would be to conquer Essos!
This would be a bit off the wall but I like it.
As I remember it was put forward that there would be no Iron Throne , Westeros would revert to separate kingdoms.
Just say’n.
Kay,
But you are wrong. People are mentioning that. Lord Tarly mentioned that.
She blew a people who were threatening to take over the realm. It’s not like everyone there was innocent. They were at war.
And as I said people followed many controversial leaders like Tywin, Ramsay and even the Mad King. There were many lords who died fighting for Mad King. So if minority of them chose Cersei I really don’t see any problem in that and I feel like you are trying too hard to find reasons why she should be dead after only 2 episodes of S7.
Once the Sept blew, armies would have been marching on KL, probably led by Tarly. S6Ep10 ended with Varys declaring “Fire & Blood” to the vengeful women…then fastforward to S7Eps1&2 we get “let’s do a peaceful siege” (which will harm untold amounts of citizens) with a surprise reaction by the vengeful women. Don’t you see the hypocrisy? The lack of communication and cohesive thought is worse than our current tweeting idiot in charge.
Hodors Bastard,
Then there would be no story LOL.
But if you want explanation within the story it’s clear that the show is portraying the Green Trail like Cersei’s version of Castamere. It showed what will happen with anyone who goes against her. People are afraid of her now. Armies marching on KL without Dany there would probably be catastrophe for Dorne and the Reach since the Lannisters have the biggest army and with Euron’s help they would be able to defeat them.
Especially since they would be within the city walls.
mau,
There has been a lot of foreshadowing on the show of possible resistance to Dany and her foreign army. Starting in Mereen, we were shown a prostitute working with the Sons of the Harpy to resist a foreign queen and her foreign army to signify that people don’t like perceived outsiders dictating the rules. There was Tyrion’s joke about the Lannisters and Starks in season 6 highlighting Dany’s inner circle’s misunderstanding of Westeros culture. Then Dany’s admission herself that Dragonstone did not feeling like a home coming. To the Westerosi she is an outsider. It hasn’t been her home since she was an infant. What does she understand of the people and the culture. They didn’t ask her to break the wheel. It makes sense that the peasants and the lords would resist her foreign army and the power that the dragons represent.
Tywin’s Ghost,
I agree. And I find it realistic in the show. Some lords would support her, some wouldn’t. Nothing is black and white.
When Dario Naharis was courting Daenery’s in season 5 on the way to Meereen that was Dario’s exact advice to Daenery’s … Dario picked various flowers native to Meereen and what they are used for which became a great example of needing to know the culture where you want to rule.
Another Daenery’s lesson was the fighting pits in Meereen of knowing the culture and what the people want. Daenerys also learned that she should have had The unsullied do a weapons check at the front gate.
TWoW speculation:
No story? Have no fear, the “larger” ice and fire story will live on regardless. 🙂
As the former King’s daughter, Dany is still (only) the princess of Dragonstone, not Queen of Westeros. She is queen of Mereen, to be sure, but in Westeros IMO she qualifies as a princess
Tywin was considered Cruel and Evil for that – so is Cersei.
Also Cersei obliterated the religious establishment – that’s a bigger deal than wiping out some minor vassal house.
Book wise there is more mention of Targ loyalists in Westerns than has been the case on the show. Unless my ears deceive me thought there was a short remark last episode about Targ supporters ?, not just meaning just Dorne and Highgarden.
A few seasons ago he told Tywin he wanted Casterly Rock and Tywin was vicious in his denial of Tyrion. It’s highly symbolic for Tyrion to have control of it, he feels it is his right to have it, plus having it would be an additional “fuck you” to Tywin’s memory. I would think helping him capture it would be a just reward from Dany for advice well given, IF that’s how the advice turns out. Plus, Cersei and Jaime would have no haven to run to if it’s under Tyrion’s control.
Cersei can’t imagine being ousted from Kings Landing, so she may not care except to be furious that Tyrion managed to accomplish any damn thing, when her hatred of him is so heavy. Jaime would be annoyed about the property, though. I think he’s always thought he would end up with CR somehow.
mau,
I think people are confusing their knowledge and understanding of Dany as an audience member with an in-world character’s POV. Cersei made a convincing argument against Dany and her foreign army. Imagine if you’re a Lord or peasant and this person comes to your country with a Dothraki horde and dragons demanding to call the shots. No one is taking kindly to that.
Ten Bears,
When Dany/Tyrion made their plans the Lannisters’ real power resided in only two locations. Casterly Rock and King’s Landing.
Dorne and The Reach were on Dany’s side.
The Iron Islands were in civil war.
The North and The Vale are neutral.
And Lannister control over the Riverlands and the Stormlands is tenuous.
Take Casterly Rock. Besiege King’s Landing. And the Lannisters are utterly screwed.
Hodors Bastard,
Please don’t compare Cersei, one of the greatest character in this story with that lame plot device.
I don’t know what will happen in ADOS when Dany comes to Westeros. Probably even Martin doesn’t know.
This is off- topic, and I apologize, but it’s been on my mind since last week/ are we not going to see any more of direwolf Nymeria? was that the way D&D were tying off a loose thread? I have in my head that Arya will continue to Winterfell, and Nymeria will be shown to be trailing at a distance, but maybe not. Maybe we are left to feel that Nymeria has chosen a happier life leading her own pack, and we are to think no more of her. It’s certainly better than seeing her killed, as they did to Summer and Gray Wind. But there is such disregard for the Direwolves, it annoys me. Then to hear there was a scene shot with Ghost, and they chose to leave it out. Unthinkable. Just had to blow off that steam.
QueenofThrones,
Religious fanatics that wanted to destroy the aristocracy. I don’t think lords of Westeros feel too sorry for them.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Yeah. The plan was good, but Cersei made a pact with Euron and successfully created division in the Reach, which made sense. But she is just buying time. She can’t win.
Only the WW can stop Dany from killing Cersei.
Yes! It still matters to him. It seems that Tyrion would want to avoid a massacre of his people too…so I would assume he hopes for an easy infiltration and victory. We’ll see how much of a “surprise attack” it is! From AFfC,
Tywin’s Ghost,
I agree.
You misunderstood my point. Dany’s show arc must handle both planned book arcs, for better or worse.
Actually Tarly mentions how Cersei gets rid of those that defy her, and then mentions that the Tarlys’ are not oathbreakers, schemers or stab our rivals in the back or cut their throats at weddings. He is swayed by being offered the Warden of the South when the war is won. I’m sure everyone is aware of what she had done but at the moment they are afraid of her.
Hodors Bastard,
mau,
Like Napoleon said about one of his generals, he was lucky having to fight with coalitions. And the show had addressed this issue in S1: remember King Robert comparing 5 fingers and 1 fist? He thought that the Targarians will have the fist, but now it’s exactly the opposite: Cersei has her forces in one fist, while Dany has a coallition of five fingers each with own agenda. And each of her coallition partners is interested to minimize own losses and put the burden of the war on someone else. Had Ollena and the Sand Snakes been alone, they would have probably send their armies to KL or at least entrench in their own territories. But why should they bother, if Dany is comming with all her might and three dragons? No, it was better to wait for her doing all the dirty job, especially taking into account that she was the senior coallition partner so to say.
Of course, they should have discussed the initial strategy when they were treating with Varys, but Varys has never been a military strategists. He went to Westeros to make the alliance with Dorne (and got Ollena unexpectedly), he had no idea when Dany will go to Westeros and even whether she will go there at all, so there was no way he could agree on details. Moreover, there was that sense of over-power, which made Tyrion to split their foces instead of concentrating them, and that was a mistake, because military strategy is always about concentration. But nevertheless such mistakes are committed in real life on daily basis, and I can see why the showrunners want to explore this issue. Like Mau has admitted, Dany struggles with the same dilemma like US and many other real world politicians who consider themselves more or less moral and she is going to encounter the same shortcommings of this polity. However, I don’t think that going all fire and blood will work any better. The best choice for her would be helping the North and establishing herself as a savior of the coutry, but it looks like she is going to miss this opportunity next episode, a then we’ll see how it plays.
Hodors Bastard,
Yep, I thought that was a bit strange also? I thought Dany’s armada also included the Dornish fleet and one would think being carried on those was the bulk of the Dornish army! Obviously not – as Yara was asked to sail to Dorne, pick them up and to attack KL
This whole section of story with Euron is a bit ridiculous 😉 If the Greyjoys who sided with Theon and Yara took a good part of the Ironborn fleet (the fastest ships) how did Euron manage to rebuild his fleet in such a relatively short time?
I find this is one of the biggest problems with GoT as events happen almost sequentially as if no time has past? To build even 100 ships would take years, let alone a 1000 ships! That would take decades 😮
I agree, if what you are hinting at is that it may not be too much of a surprise.
Inga,
Your comment reminds me of the conversation between Davos and Stannis:
“I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”
QueenofThrones,
The Sparrows were not the religious establishment: they were rebelous zealots who started with marrching the true religious establishment High Septon naked through the streets. They became the heroes of the day, but eventually even the small folk should have been happy to get rid of them, especially taking into account that Cersei gave them back wine and brothels.
This idea that Tyrion is going to purposefully ruin Dany’s invasion plans in order to get CR sooner is silly. Obviously taking Casterly Rock would be a massive win for her side. Not only would it be a strategically useful location (Being not at all far from KL) but CR has never been taken by any army. What better way to demonstrate the dominance of Dany’s forces than to take an impenetrable fortress?
Referring to aFfC
I don’t know about anybody else, but that’s not what I meant. Of course he would not do anything to thwart or damage Dany’s ultimate plans, but it doesn’t mean he isn’t silently gleeful that CR will be overtaken by her forces. He wants her to succeed, he’s in love with her, I think. Which also means, as an aside, that he is not going to be happy when Jorah shows up.
Black Raven,
lol why on earth would the Dornish (or Tyrells) send their entire army to Mereen and back? That would be ridiculously expensive (supplies, sailors, etc, for the voayage) and a completely useless waste. The dornish and tyrell ships just contained an honor guard to go along with the leaders.
Black Raven,
Dany needed additional ships to ferry her army from Mereen, and captains to sail them. That was the most important reason why Varys met with Ellaria and Lady Olenna, besides getting their political support. There was no reason, or room, for the Dornish army to sail to Mereen and back again.
‘Tis only speculation, untainted by leaks. So Tyrion is sending the Unsullied/Dothraki as far away as possible only to demonstrate his masterful knowledge of CR? (Yes, as the crow flies it is not a vast distance from KL, but by sea it is ridiculously risky from Dragonstone) I guess its value is impressive still (but hardly worth what it was). The only reason I would assume they take CR (with nobody relevant ruling it) at this point is to eventually rally the western armies and attack KL from the west.
I assume that the huge Lannister army will head west with Jaime to meet the Unsullied near CR, exposing KL to attack from the south and east. But that plan might be in jeopardy right out of the gate.
Regarding AFfC
Thronetender,
I’ll go off topic with you, because it got me wondering as well. There have already been a lot of what I call “Hello, I Must Be Going” scenes (a lyric from an old Groucho Marx song), i.e. charscter’s returning just long enough to be dispatched eg Osha, Rickon and Blackfish.
I simply cannot believe that the Arya + Nymeria scene in S7e2 was just to tie up a loose end. It would seem that would be a lot of time and expense for no real payoff.
I can only keep my fingers crossed that Nymeria and her wolf pack will intersect with Arya again. Otherwise….why bother?
On a related note, I just bought a container of milk at the supermarket and saw a picture of Ghost on the side.
Ok. But I still think Tarly and QoT would immediately react with overt and covert tactics upon KL. They would be marching before Dany arrived, imho. Really, you think the QoT will hold still after the Sept coup d’etat? I don’t see it. So if you are a book reader, do you agree with the speculation I made with mau regarding TWoW?
I must admit, this is where I get quite concerned regarding the deviation between book and show.
Patrick Sponaugle,
How about this for a title, Jon Snow the Resurrected, beat that MK’sD.
If I was Jon, I’d still make sure I wore my silk boxers when I met Dany.
Just in case.
Super Northener,
Isn’t he ‘the White Wolf’?
That’s what Manderly called him anyway.
Hodors Bastard,
I agree with you that unless Cersei could blame the attack on the Sept of Baelor on a scape goat, the destruction of one of the most sacred places in Westeros south of the Neck would have some consequences.
The Faith of the Seven has sort of been sidelined in terms of its presence within the Andal culture of Westeros – it’s just sort of come across as a cult really.
That is aside from the fact that Cersei is a woman who has claimed the throne with no legitimate right to it. That is completely ridiculous! The First Great Council and the Dance of Dragons demands that there be some recognition within this show that this sort of thing can’t just happen without serious objections from the nobility.
There would be competing claimants coming out of the woodwork all over the place.
D&D have skipped over this for pace and focus but it just looks clumsy to me.
Violator,
Yes, he is “the White Wolf”.
I will also be wearing my silk underwear when they meet.😍
As much as I was rooting for a reunion of she-wolves, I was amazed and touched at the route they took. Arya had let her go long ago, had even threw a rock at Nymeria to make her run away, and both have grown strong independently. Although Chekhov may have the final say about this ‘early’ S7 scene, I’d be content knowing that Nymeria was out there somewhere, away from the chaos. However, even the wild wolves will be consumed by the Long Night at some point.
Violator,
The nobility are objecting.
Dorne and The Reach are in revolt. The North and The Vale don’t recognise her authority.
The Riverlands are under Lannister control as, presumably, are the Stormlands; but if there was anybody of note still around to rally support in those kingdoms and contest her claim then they would probably be in revolt too.
Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor, wiping out her political rivals in the capital. She rules through fear and because she physically laid claim to the Iron Throne and King’s Landing.
Joffrey had no right to the Iron Throne and was contested by other claimants. But the Lannisters held the throne and King’s Landing and parleyed alliances to support his claim despite his illegitimacy, so Joffrey was King.
Cersei is doing the same.
I must admit that the physical destruction of the Sept was not my forefront concern, but I definitely see your point. That act would have rallied many houses throughout Westeros. On my end though, I had a tough time with the QoT sitting in Sunspear’s Watergarden without going Fire & Blood nuts herself. She has lost everything. How did she restrain herself after seeing her family and only heirs pulverized and after she was the co-conspirator at the infamous Purple Wedding? She is a no-nonsense plotter and organizer. The Tyrell & Tarly troops would have been marching before Varys showed up. I am thrown by her knee-bent passive nodding in S7.
Oh well. I cheered when she said to Dany “Be a dragon!” So much envy and anger encapsulated in that assertion!!
Hodors Bastard,
I think there are so many plot holes that have been created by (1) Jon just leaving the Nights’ Watch and (2) Cersei crowning herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, that I am sure these things are not planned for the books.
They just don’t make any sense.
A quick analogy off the top of my head for Cersei’s current position would be if Ann Boleyn had secretly poisoned Henry the VIII and then blew up Canterbury Cathedral with Catherine of Aragon in it, before crowing herself queen.
It’s just nonsense.
i figured the Dorne and Highgarden ships were sent to transport the Unsullied and Dothraki , the armies stayed back home. You are right does not make sense to send them. I figured most of the fleet stayed with Dany at Dragostone so’s to transport the Unsulled and the Dothraki. Maybe this will be explained.
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Please stop trying to make sense of this because it’s not going to work.
Cersei would not be able to hold on to the throne for five seconds, let alone two episodes. The show has basically told us that the Westerlands, and the Crownlands would recognise her rule, but her own bannermen would object to it.
She’s a woman and she has no legitimate right to the pretty tiara she’s placed on her head. The only way she could even hold the throne for five seconds would be if she could get some nobles to accept her rule – and why would they – any of them? They would instantly rally behind competing male claimants.
Aegon dated his rule of Westeros from the moment the High Septon crowned him at the Old Town. That is significant because it tells us that Aegon recognised that despite all his successes, he couldn’t claim kingship until he’d been given a stamp of legitimacy. The support of the Seven gave him that.
Do you think the Faith is going to give the same sort of support to Cersei Lannister?
In fact, the absolute shit storm of a civil war that this power vacuum would create would make the War of the Five Kings look like a playground scrap.
And yet, we skip over it for plot reasons.
Hey, thank you for that. I love talking about Stannis.
We don’t know how they are approaching CR – maybe they land near Duskendale and march west by land. Probably we won’t find out. Time/space issues really should not be something people are still arguing about. Point is, if they do get CR, then they have Cersei all but surrounded. With Westerlands liberated, Riverlands should fall shortly thereafter – they’ve no reason to be loyal to Cersei. It’s also unexpected. C&J will expect her to attack KL and their forces will be there, CR will be undefended.
An issue may be if the Reach really does turn and follow Tarly.
AFFC:
Gemma states (paraphrased) “Jaime, you are like uncles number 1, 2, and 3, but Tyrion is Tywin’s son.” Meaning Jaime is for sure a “true Lannister” (not that this means anything) very worthy in many ways, while Tyrion is the one who is like Tywin.
My objection was to your assertion that this means somehow Jaime is not worthy of being the Lannister heir. This is only true if one believes that the only way to be worthy is to be like Tywin, which I don’t think Gemma, or anyone, really believes.
Now that Daenerys has settled into Dragonstone, will the locals come out of hiding and bend their knees? The men probably all died fighting for Stannis, but where are the women and children, shivering and starving on a craggy peak?
If so, these people need aid. C’mon Varys, let’s see how down you really are with the common folk!
Given that this thread has been discussing the vast period of time/space between Meereen and Dragonstone when/where Dany’s campaign should have been planned and enacted, that statement is somewhat dismissive of our valid concerns. Anyway, I find Tyrion’s plan flawed and bizarrely/dangerously biased…to the point I question his motives. Nothing more than that.
Many across the great ether are simply pointing out that Dany arriving at Dragonstone could have moved elsewhere in the season in order to have her strategy take full effect without nutty diversions! But…drama!
Regarding AFfC, I appreciate the clarification.
Violator,
It actually makes complete sense. It all circles back to Varys’s riddle from season 2. Power resides where man believes it resides.
Violator,
I really don’t know what you expect from this show.
Are you really moaning that Cersei has installed herself on the Iron Throne and all the obscure lords of the Seven Kingdoms are not being depicted in revolt because she’s a woman?
How much medieval realism are you really expecting from this show?
Is the idea that a few of the Seven Kingdoms are being cowed into submission or don’t have the means to rebel meaningfully really too much of a stretch for you? After all we’ve already seen on this show?
Tell me, who are these competing male claimants that the nobles should be rallying around and what relevance would they have to the story at this late stage?
Why wouldn’t the Westerlands bannermen follow the lead of Jaime Lannister, their liege lord?
How many more of the Seven Kingdoms than the current four in rebellion and the other two that the Lannisters are barely holding onto need to be opposed to her rule to make it believable?
How does the fact that a dragon-wielding queen with hordes of foreign “savages” has just landed in the Seven Kingdoms and an undead army led by ice zombies is marching on the northern border wall factor into the nobles’ eagerness to remove a woman from the Iron Throne?
I think I understand where your beef is really coming from when you mention the lore that Aegon sought the support of the Faith to maintain his rule.
Well, show Cersei obviously couldn’t currently care less about the legitimacy bestowed by the Faith since she just obliterated their most important place of worship; whereas Aegon was a foreign conqueror who probably didn’t fancy having to burn his new subjects alive every time their xenophobia and sectarianism got the better of them.
And we really don’t have time for a retread of the Sparrows storyline. The Faith tried to establish a theocracy. Their leaders and hundreds of followers got blown to smithereens. They lost. That storyline is over.
I’m sure anybody in the Seven Kingdoms who’s aggrieved at Cersei’s attacks on the Faith will join their kingdoms in revolt against her rule if the opportunity arises.
But I’m afraid the show now has bigger fish to fry.
Ahh….. what you say about the books regarding a couple of characters missing in the show, begins to make sense now, including all the rushed traveling to and from Meereen at the end of last season, and Euron’s gigantic O/N fleet! 😀 Eliminating some characters and their stories, but still having to reach the same end-point with others, has created somewhat of a mess as regards to the political story (not the WW one). I wonder how many episodes it will take to reach the same point as planned in the books, for characters like Cersei, Olenna, the Dorne people, Yara/Theon and more importantly, Daenerys’ arrival and subsequent time in Westeros.
That’s a good title, but if Jon and Dany are going to trade supernatural bona fides, Dany has the whole unburnt thing. Which could easily be spun as an “I walked into a bonfire, died, and emerged from the ashes like a phoenix (if Planetos has such a thing) resurrected, with three dragons.”
Jon: Yeah. I got better from being stabbed.
Dany: And that wasn’t the only bonfire I emerged from, like a goddess.
Davos: Well, now you’re bragging. It’s unseemly.
Yes, you are correct… I don’t know why I said what I did regarding the Dornish army. Probably my age and I’m going a bit senile, hehe 😀
However, it does seem a bit crazy Dany and her armada sailing from Meereen to Dragonstone and then getting Yara with her ships to sail down to Dorne to transport the Dornish army back up to KL. A pity that decision wasn’t made in Meereen as I believe the distant between Meereen and Sunspeare is a lot less?
Not forgetting to mention doing that I doubt if Yara’s ships would have been attacked by Euron’s fleet, but that would have screwed up D&D’s storytelling – huh 😉
Ramsay’s 20th Good Man,
Remember that there is nobody in Dany’s camp with any real warlike military experience. Tyrion is a thinker and diplomat. Varys is a spy.
Yara is a sea captain, and Grey Worm is the leader by vote of a static defense force. If their plans and actions seem amateurish and disorganised is because nobody really knows how to do a proper invasion/attack
Sam,
Tyrion had good battlefield intuition at Black Water.
One thing no side seems to have is a military intelligence service.
Violator,
But the thing is very few recognize Cersei as queen right now, so I am unclear as to your point. She only has Lannister own lands behind her because she, or Jaime, not clear on that, is the rightful ruler of the Westerlands. Euron is there too for well-explained reasons: if Dany wins, Yara takes over Iron Islands.
Riverlands are in limbo following the Great Frey Slaughter of 2017 and are likely too weak to effectively support anyone after years of war and destruction. It was the main theater of operations for years and the countryside is likely in ashes.
Stormlands nominally accept her rule beacuse Baratheons are extinct and huge numbers of their nobles and pretty much their entire army blew up on the Blackwater. Like Riverlands, they are leaderless and militarily exhausted.
Everyone else — North, Vale, Reach, Dorne — is opposed to Cersei’s rule.
Kay,
Ramsay's 20th Good Man,
I really don’t know where this idea that Cersei won’t take the Iron Throne in the books comes from. Maybe because GRRM write her like a cartoonish idiot, but what people expect, that after WoS in the books Cersei will just die? That HS will win? Or Young Griff?
Cersei siting on the IT is something that makes perfect sense as the final form of her character, as the final stage of game of thrones. After WoS ofc that she will rise again, stronger than ever. Her story is not over.
But since the books became a complete mess at this point I don’t blame people for thinking that ultra minor characters will be main Dany’s enemies when she comes to Westeros.
And since Dany’s invasion is ADOS material we will never get that in written form, but I expect Cersei to take the throne by the end of TWOW.
Violator,
I think that the Faith would give support to Cersei, at least the establishment abd that’s the only thing that matters, because there is no way that they supported what HS was doing.
Black Raven,
The Dornish army has been sitting put in Dorne. Varys got the alliance and the Dornish and Reach fleets sailed to Meereen empty. There they were filled with Dany’s armies and ferried those armies to Dragonstone. The ships were full when they sailed past Dorne on their way to Dragonstone. No room to take on the Dornish armies. That’s why they had to go back and fetch them… Only, thanks to Euron, that didn’t work so well, haha.
As to Tyrion’s motives regarding Casterly Rock. Of course he has personal reasons, CR has huge personal significance for him.
However, right now the Cersei regime has two power bases, King’s Landing and Casterly Rock. Take away one and you severly curtail Cersei’s ability to raise (and feed and clothe) new armies. That doesn’t seem like such a bad idea, especially because Tyrion has specialist knowledge of CR. All those drains and sewers he was in charge of when young. Also, Dany took Meereen using drains and sewers, so there’s a precedent.
Haven’t thought about that, but it’s a good point. High Sparrow essentially hijacked the Faith (with Cersei’s behind-the-scenes help of course). Can you imagine what all the dozens of “bishops” and “cardinals” around the realm thought of the “Pope” preaching return to the roots, riches-are-evil philosophy? Had High Sparrow managed to consolidate his power through Tommen-sanctioned theocracy, the entire Faith hierarchy would be next on the chopping block, figuratively speaking. Let’s not even talk about the nobles’ position: if this lunatic can imprison both the Queen and the Queen Mother, gods only know what he’ll be up to with continent-wide power.
As I see it, only the common folk flocked to High Sparrow’s side for obvious reasons. Both the aristocracy and the old Faith establishment couldn’t wait to get rid of the guy. I sincerely doubt they’re overly sad he’s gone. And anyway, Westeros was never shown to be nearly as religious as medieval Europe. Faith may be influential, but it exhibits far less power than the Catholic Church, various religions show remarkable tolerance (Melisandre aside), and religious motives seem to be way down on the list of most people’s priorities.
Mr Fixit,
Yes, people act like Cersei killed Pope and the establishment of the Church, but she just destroyed ISIS.
I mean even with that majority of Westeros is against her, but to have EVERYONE against her would be too much.
Boojam,
No muted colors for GRRM! In the books Daario wears yellow robes and has a blue beard lol.
mau,
It’s not that Cersei won’t take the Iron Throne in the books, but how she goes about it. The show makes her seem like this diabolical mastermind that somehow “taught” Sansa so much about politicking.
In the books, she’s not cartoonish at all. She’s someone who thinks she’s “Tywin with teats” but in reality she’s just an incredibly harsh person who is paranoid in seeing enemies all around her after the death of her first born son. She is in no way shape or form a strategic genius like the show makes her out to be.
I agree with you that I’m sure she’s going to end up on the Iron Throne following a similar set of circumstances the show gave us. Just that her situation is not going to be nearly as strong in the books imo.
WallyFrench,
Her chapters make her seem like a Team Rocket type of villain. That’s why every book reader thinks she is an idiot. She is not mastermind, but she is not that stupid like it seems from her chapters.
He killed Robert, almost killed Tyrion, she defeated Ned Stark, HS, Tyrells….
Mr Fixit,
“the Great Frey Slaughter of 2017”
————-
I like that. 😊 I was gonna call it the Arbor Gold Feast, but “Great Frey Slaughter” sounds better.
I’m just wondering what people are going to be thinking when that surviving Frey girl tells people that Walder ripped off his own face, there was a girl underneath, and she said something about the North remembers and winter came for House Frey.
Ten Bears,
They may think it is Gods’ punishment for RW.
mau,
Yes, there seems to be this constant “tension” between those who view Cersei primarily through the book lens as opposed to the show lens. Her paranoid delusional craziness soured many fans’ experience when we finally got her point-of-view chapters in Book 4. Some of her worst excesses have been either softened on TV or moved over to Joffrey (like killing of Robert’s bastards). In my view, the result is a person who is much more interesting to watch and presents a more credible threat.
Cersei is a very smart woman with bad impulse control that will be her ultimate downfall. She’s far from an incompetent idiot many readers seem to think she is.
Ten Bears,
They’ll think them crazy. A face-peeling assassin girl!? A learned few may suspect Faceless Men, but they seem to be a secretive cult. I don’t think anyone ever mentioned them aside from Arya’s storyline… well, there was that little foreshadowing gem in Season 1 with Doreah and Viserys in a bathtub. She said she’d seen a man who could change his face the way other men change their clothes.
Come to think of it, Doreah, unlikely as it may seem, was a veritable fountain of foreshadowing. We first heard of dragonglass from her and I’d like to think she was our first introduction to Pirate Extraordinaire Salladhor Saan.
Mr Fixit,
Yes. And I think back then it made sense to move those things to Joffrey. Cersei is now capabale of doing those things, after everything that happened to her.
In the books she was a monster since she was born, we know she killed when she was just a little girl. In the show we saw her become a monster. That’s why show Cersei is much better and organic character
The problem I have is that both page wise and show wise the Faith Militant rose to power because of the masses. The common folk were all in for them when they threw out the Faith’s establishment. The crown was in living fear of the common people going able sugar if the HS was defied. I don’t know what happens in the books but there is a logical fallacy in blowing the Faith Militant to smithereenes. It should have been Bastille Day one hundred times over. Possibly the end of the monarchy in Westerns. yup as the plot stands right now it does not compute.
Boojam,
I don’t see any problem in that. Someone has to lead and organise those people. Their unhappiness is not enough.
Robert mentions the FM is season 1 or was it LF? Seems the conversation was they could not afford them.
The FM play a different role on the page especially in that they seem to be in the employ of the Iron Bank. They seem to weld some kind of mysterious power. The show has rejiggered Aray’s interaction with the House of Black and White seemingly to write the FM out of the plot.
Tom Wlaschiha , last year, intimated , as if D&D had told him, that Jaqen had a future role , be a surprise to see this season. If he’s in Tom is the most invisible actor when he wants to be.
A perfect situation for someone in the realm.
Anyone who declared for the Faith could waltz into KL to cheering crowds.
The logical actor here would be Dany. I can’t remember her talking about religion page or show.
Mr Fixit,
Yeah, that was my thought: Who’s going to believe such an outlandish story? People would sooner think pedo Walder’s abused wife decided to poison everyone.
I’d also like to see Arya’s reaction if she makes it to WF, and people start talking about the mysterious Jonestown/Kool-Aid mass slaughter of House Frey.
Maybe history will record the event as Walder, afflicted with dementia, massacring his family, and then disappearing or jumping off the Twins’ bridge, never to be seen again. More palatable than the already-used “poisoned by our enemies.” 👸🏻😊
Hah! I wonder how Archmaester Ebrose will handle/interpret that event in his “The Chronicles of the Wars Following the Death of King Robert.” I’m sure he will gather and consider all the independent accounts of the event and determine that Tyrion was to blame. Of course, he still needs to work on that title…it’s not as poetic as it could be… 🙂
Hodors Bastard,
Har! I love it.
Well it is an alternate universe only the seven gods knows whats in the air over there.
mau,
In the show she defeated HS and Tyrells, we’ll see what happens in books. And I’d say her defeating them all is what led to the deaths of her children and the near eradication of her house. Maybe not dumb, but she’s no strategic mastermind.
To say she’s “Team Rocket” level diminishes her book successes, but the show does a disservice to the character imo but boosting up her strategic genius.
Boojam,
This 100%! The common folk love the Sparrows, as they are made up of common folk mostly who are addressing issues that concern them. I’m very curious to see if Cersei “nukes” the Sept of Baelor in the books, and what commoners do as a result. I’d suspect she does since they have her enjoying wildfire as she takes down the Tower of the Hand.
Mr Fixit,
There was also another character in one of the earlier places Dany was in, wearing a gold net over her face. When asked what her name is, she said, no one. I didn’t catch that till the third time I did my rewatch of the show, and wondered then how much people knew about the HOBW outside of Essos.
Violator,
Cersei as the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms makes as much sense as Shajar al-Durr as Sutana of Egipt or Catherine I or II as the Russian Empresses in their own right. You should do some research on the real world history before rushing up to the conclusions.
Boojam,
Interesting idea, but that would mean dumping Mel and her ilk in Essos. Not sure if she’s able to do that.
Thronetender,
I recall that Nymeria was in the Riverlands killing Frey’s… which ironically, is what Arya was just doing. Perhaps their mission in the Riverlands is over and they will both head north to reunite with their packs.
Love you daenerys
Good point, the only thing they seem to have is the little birds, and from what’s been shown, that is mainly little children. It’s been reliable to a certain degree, but it seems has no one thought of a spy network on a larger scale. Varys was using those children for years as spies, surely some of them is in his/her late teens by now, and ready for more adventurous spy work, to be paid by real money rather than candy, but who knows? There isn’t time in the show to flesh out such things, and for GRRM to approach the subject in the books would mean him cutting out some of his world “building” and work on world he’s already written – whether he’s capable of that remains to be seen.
Ten Bears,
Interesting discussion! It is a pretty outlandish story and hopefully none of the Lannister soldiers will believe it and go after her. The historians will find a way to retell it to suit a political objective or just retell it in a more believable version (I like the mad Walder Frey version!). But I bet Mel or Jaqen, and maybe even Sandor, would believe it was Arya if they ever get the information.
ash,
Quaithe. As far as I know, she isn’t a faceless woman, but a shadowbinder from Asshai. She has some curious additional appearances in the books.
Boojam,
The implication is that only the very wealthy can afford to hire the Faceless Men. But Robert Baratheon has bankrupted the Iron Throne and Cersei Lannister refuses to honor the debts owed by the Crown. Thus angering powerful institutions such as the Iron Bank of Braavos and the Faith of the Seven. So much for the Lannister saying…
Cersei: A Lannister pays his debts.
Pycelle: The Braavosi have a saying too. The Iron Bank will have its due, they say. ADWD Chap 44.
There are some theories that claim the House of Black and White is actually run by the Iron Bank of Braavos. This makes sense as a way for the Iron Bank to claim its ‘due’ when borrowers renege on repaying their loans. And for the Iron bank to recoup their losses on bad investments (Robert and Stannis Baratheon for example) by collecting large fee’s to assassinate their clients enemies.
Since banks play both ‘long’ and ‘short’ range financial games, could they be playing a ‘long’ game in Westeros? In other words, did they know that their ‘loans’ to Robert (and subsequently Stannis) would most likely never be repaid? The long game being that they might not get their gold back, but they could parlay that debt into land (and castles) in Westeros. Part of this game would be to destabilize the crown (think Petyr Baelish and his ‘Chaos is a ladder’ philosophy).
Additionally, by investing in Arya’s training, they get a Faceless man who will eagerly help them eliminate those involved in the war of five kings (with the exception of her brother Robb). Leaving a weakened Westeros and freeing up finances to create a renaissance of prosperity (much like the Black Plague helped usher in the Renaissance in Europe). And in this renaissance, the Iron Bank would be able to claim lands, castles and their corresponding incomes. Petyr Baelish will lose his game of Chaos, and the Iron Bank will have its due.
In the end, the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms will be a puppet to the Iron Bank of Braavos… Nah, this could never happen in real life.
Many revered Westerosi women in the past Planetos century have simply disappeared into history, their bodies never found…
I don’t believe Dany will ever take the Iron throne, she may see off Cersei, Euron and their allies this season but I suspect she goes North to her death or at the very least comes to realise Jon is the rightful heir.
The weirdest thing is that Dany is the oddest Valyrian to ever come along, she is on the wavelength of Braavos. They are anti slavery she is an abolitionist. The FM are more anti-slavery than the rest of
Braavos. On the show Braavos’s opinion of Dany never comes up, on the page , i don’t know, I can’t remember talk in the books about Dany in the anti slavery states in Essos. It would seem the Iron Bank would want to talk to Dany since she could be their ticket to collecting on all the big debts.
We never find out if the Iron Bank deals with the Essos slave states. Not shown on the show but Braavos apparently has the best navy in Essos something which would also be an advantage to Dany and the IB.
And one prince: Prince Bran.
I’ve come to this conclusion…
Last season there was a lot of conflicting debate and interpretation – most colored by personal bias, but eventually the show runners or writer would just come out and explain what the ‘scene’ or ‘character’ meant, and it was usually the most obvious explanation – no underlining meanings, or twists, it was meant to be straight-forward and they didn’t always understand why fans were confused or had wildly different interpretations, and the same is starting again this year…
I guess they didn’t understand that this is what GRRM intentionally created when he wrote the books, hidden meanings, secrets, prophecies, etc… and thus what the audience is used to this way of thinking about the books/show – that is part of the fun (reading all the comments and commentary). But since they have had to take over plotting and writing plus their desire to end the show as soon as they can manage it – we should take a lesson from the past seasons…
They have no time for subtlety – what is most likely happening, or what they are telling us is happening is what they want us to take away from the scene/characters. If scenes or conversations seem out of place – well it is done for drama, a pay-off, or to close a loose end that fans are still talking about. They are trying to complete this story ASAP and don’t have time for anything but a straight-forward approach.
If you watch without trying to add hidden layers, or trying to connect past actions and attitudes with the characters as they are written now – the show will be a lot less of a headache to follow.
So, I’m going to try and watch this show with a new attitude – just have fun with it. And if there is something minor detail I don’t particularly like, well I hope GRRM (eventual *crosses fingers*) version of it is better… or just re-write it in my personal head canon like I do for any bits of Star Wars I don’t like 🙂
Thanks; I’ll have to watch out for her on my next read
eta:
viki,
What!? Have fun watching a fantasy tv show? Blaspemy!! 🙂
Mr Fixit,
Yeah, the show dropped her character at this point. The 3 betrayals prophecy is done on the show, imo.
Edward Gain,
Why would a Braavoi bank want lands and castles in Westeros?
viki,
It’s a great way to look at the show. I’m trying to do the same thing as well, with mixed results. 🙂